Entrepreneurial Pastors: When to Leave Your Full-Time Job

there is no differentiating factors there is no differentiating factors between people that believe in Jesus and between people that believe in Jesus and between people that believe in Jesus and people that don't and that's super sad people that don't and that's super sad people that don't and that's super sad for me and so collectively like we've for me and so collectively like we've for me and so collectively like we've just settled for like I said this broken just settled for like I said this broken just settled for like I said this broken down Shadow at best representation down Shadow at best representation down Shadow at best representation that's super confusing why why would that's super confusing why why would that's super confusing why why would anyone want to follow Christ and what's anyone want to follow Christ and what's anyone want to follow Christ and what's the good news when our lives look no the good news when our lives look no the good news when our lives look no different than anybody else welcome to different than anybody else welcome to different than anybody else welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on the car newoff leadership podcast on the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today hey and if it's your first time make hey and if it's your first time make hey and if it's your first time make sure you subscribe you'll never miss sure you subscribe you'll never miss sure you subscribe you'll never miss episode we interview some of the Most episode we interview some of the Most episode we interview some of the Most Fascinating People I think on the planet Fascinating People I think on the planet Fascinating People I think on the planet in the church leadership space whether in the church leadership space whether in the church leadership space whether you're a business leader invested in the you're a business leader invested in the you're a business leader invested in the church or a pastor you're going to love church or a pastor you're going to love church or a pastor you're going to love it so today we're going to talk about it so today we're going to talk about it so today we're going to talk about entrepreneurial pastors when is it time entrepreneurial pastors when is it time entrepreneurial pastors when is it time to leave your job I interview Zach to leave your job I interview Zach to leave your job I interview Zach Zender I think you're going to love it Zender I think you're going to love it Zender I think you're going to love it and hey just two quick notes before we and hey just two quick notes before we and hey just two quick notes before we get to today's episode if you want to be get to today's episode if you want to be get to today's episode if you want to be the first to get 202's Church Trends be the first to get 202's Church Trends be the first to get 202's Church Trends be sure to join my email list on January sure to join my email list on January sure to join my email list on January 2nd I'll be releasing all five Trends 2nd I'll be releasing all five Trends 2nd I'll be releasing all five Trends along with a leader guide and throughout along with a leader guide and throughout along with a leader guide and throughout January I'll be dropping more Church January I'll be dropping more Church January I'll be dropping more Church Trends content podcast episodes and Trends content podcast episodes and Trends content podcast episodes and resources so to get it just go to on resources so to get it just go to on resources so to get it just go to on theis newsletter. or click the link in theis newsletter. or click the link in theis newsletter. or click the link in the description wherever you're the description wherever you're the description wherever you're listening or watching and hey we need to listening or watching and hey we need to listening or watching and hey we need to talk about state of the church because talk about state of the church because talk about state of the church because you are getting invited to access all you are getting invited to access all you are getting invited to access all the latest stateof the church research the latest stateof the church research the latest stateof the church research from Bara you'll get free updates on from Bara you'll get free updates on from Bara you'll get free updates on monthly research drops trending topics monthly research drops trending topics monthly research drops trending topics and important news from across the and important news from across the and important news from across the church all powered by Glue text my name

church all powered by Glue text my name church all powered by Glue text my name Carrie 25 to Carrie 25 to Carrie 25 to 46816 and you'll get yours today and now 46816 and you'll get yours today and now 46816 and you'll get yours today and now here is my conversation with Zach sender here is my conversation with Zach sender here is my conversation with Zach sender well Zach welcome to the podcast it's well Zach welcome to the podcast it's well Zach welcome to the podcast it's good to have you it's great to be on good to have you it's great to be on good to have you it's great to be on with you Carrie yeah so I would love to with you Carrie yeah so I would love to with you Carrie yeah so I would love to know what is a commonly held belief know what is a commonly held belief know what is a commonly held belief about church leadership or about church leadership or about church leadership or discipleship that you just don't buy discipleship that you just don't buy discipleship that you just don't buy into you think is wrong and I'd love to into you think is wrong and I'd love to into you think is wrong and I'd love to know why let's you know we'll start in know why let's you know we'll start in know why let's you know we'll start in the shallow end of the pool so let's the shallow end of the pool so let's the shallow end of the pool so let's you're just jumping right in I love it you're just jumping right in I love it you're just jumping right in I love it yeah why not why not let's not waste yeah why not why not let's not waste yeah why not why not let's not waste time yeah I think it's great I think time yeah I think it's great I think time yeah I think it's great I think like obviously you have a leadership like obviously you have a leadership like obviously you have a leadership podcast and I I super believe in podcast and I I super believe in podcast and I I super believe in leadership and leadership development leadership and leadership development leadership and leadership development I've been a longtime listener I think I I've been a longtime listener I think I I've been a longtime listener I think I I started in like the double digit so I I started in like the double digit so I I started in like the double digit so I missed like the first few but um but you missed like the first few but um but you missed like the first few but um but you poured into so many of us to develop us poured into so many of us to develop us poured into so many of us to develop us as as leaders and so I love leadership as as leaders and so I love leadership as as leaders and so I love leadership development I think probably the thing development I think probably the thing development I think probably the thing that we get wrong is there's a lot of that we get wrong is there's a lot of that we get wrong is there's a lot of similarities with discipleship and similarities with discipleship and similarities with discipleship and Leadership right I actually think the Leadership right I actually think the Leadership right I actually think the goal of leadership development and goal of leadership development and goal of leadership development and discipleship training is the same it's discipleship training is the same it's discipleship training is the same it's to produce great leaders and especially to produce great leaders and especially to produce great leaders and especially in the church to produce great you know in the church to produce great you know in the church to produce great you know followers of Jesus but I think like followers of Jesus but I think like followers of Jesus but I think like there's there's there's probably maybe a little too more more probably maybe a little too more more probably maybe a little too more more emphasis on leadership development emphasis on leadership development emphasis on leadership development leadership pathway in church than there leadership pathway in church than there leadership pathway in church than there is in discipleship pathway okay and and is in discipleship pathway okay and and is in discipleship pathway okay and and that's where I I I really think like we that's where I I I really think like we that's where I I I really think like we need all the leadership we can get we need all the leadership we can get we need all the leadership we can get we need so much of it but like if you can't

need so much of it but like if you can't need so much of it but like if you can't follow Jesus well I'm not sure how follow Jesus well I'm not sure how follow Jesus well I'm not sure how you're going to lead others well and and you're going to lead others well and and you're going to lead others well and and and so I really believe that the thing and so I really believe that the thing and so I really believe that the thing that's missing or the thing that we get that's missing or the thing that we get that's missing or the thing that we get wrong with discipleship formation and wrong with discipleship formation and wrong with discipleship formation and Leadership is like this is I think the Leadership is like this is I think the Leadership is like this is I think the start of it and if we just don't have it start of it and if we just don't have it start of it and if we just don't have it or neglect it or only focus on the or neglect it or only focus on the or neglect it or only focus on the leadership side and not the discipleship leadership side and not the discipleship leadership side and not the discipleship side again they're so similar but we've side again they're so similar but we've side again they're so similar but we've got to introduce that as kind of the got to introduce that as kind of the got to introduce that as kind of the infrastructure and like the of all of infrastructure and like the of all of infrastructure and like the of all of this we got to be able to say at some this we got to be able to say at some this we got to be able to say at some point like the Apostle Paul right point like the Apostle Paul right point like the Apostle Paul right imitate me as I imitate Christ and if we imitate me as I imitate Christ and if we imitate me as I imitate Christ and if we can't get to the place where we're can't get to the place where we're can't get to the place where we're following Jesus well it's not gonna it's following Jesus well it's not gonna it's following Jesus well it's not gonna it's not going to work well we're not g to not going to work well we're not g to not going to work well we're not g to produce the leaders that make disciples produce the leaders that make disciples produce the leaders that make disciples which is what we want to do in churches which is what we want to do in churches which is what we want to do in churches so do you see that um not using the word so do you see that um not using the word so do you see that um not using the word of the year manifesting but do you see of the year manifesting but do you see of the year manifesting but do you see that showing up in in leaders or the that showing up in in leaders or the that showing up in in leaders or the people that come to Faith as we move people that come to Faith as we move people that come to Faith as we move them into leadership or all of the above them into leadership or all of the above them into leadership or all of the above I'd love to see to know where you see I'd love to see to know where you see I'd love to see to know where you see that playing out yeah I think all of the that playing out yeah I think all of the that playing out yeah I think all of the above Carrie I think when I look at above Carrie I think when I look at above Carrie I think when I look at discipleship as a whole and when I look discipleship as a whole and when I look discipleship as a whole and when I look at metrics you know in America that I'm at metrics you know in America that I'm at metrics you know in America that I'm sure are true for Canada and other sure are true for Canada and other sure are true for Canada and other places as places as places as well what I've seen is we've gotten well what I've seen is we've gotten well what I've seen is we've gotten really good in the church space at really good in the church space at really good in the church space at creating creating creating Believers but there is a difference Believers but there is a difference Believers but there is a difference between a Believer and a follower of between a Believer and a follower of between a Believer and a follower of Jesus and and I think like all of our Jesus and and I think like all of our Jesus and and I think like all of our church metrics can be going in the right church metrics can be going in the right church metrics can be going in the right way I'm not saying they are but they can way I'm not saying they are but they can way I'm not saying they are but they can all be going in the right way and yet we all be going in the right way and yet we all be going in the right way and yet we can still produce people that aren't can still produce people that aren't can still produce people that aren't aren't aren't the disciples that Jesus aren't aren't the disciples that Jesus aren't aren't the disciples that Jesus is after and what really his heart wants

is after and what really his heart wants is after and what really his heart wants for us and that's where I think the real for us and that's where I think the real for us and that's where I think the real problem comes is when we've got all problem comes is when we've got all problem comes is when we've got all these really great systems and I'm all these really great systems and I'm all these really great systems and I'm all about systems but when we've got all about systems but when we've got all about systems but when we've got all these great systems that are are pouring these great systems that are are pouring these great systems that are are pouring into us but it's not producing the into us but it's not producing the into us but it's not producing the output that it ought to and I really output that it ought to and I really output that it ought to and I really believe that's the the great problem believe that's the the great problem believe that's the the great problem we're seeing in Christianity Today is we're seeing in Christianity Today is we're seeing in Christianity Today is we've got all these systems but it's not we've got all these systems but it's not we've got all these systems but it's not actually producing the people that Jesus actually producing the people that Jesus actually producing the people that Jesus has called us to produce and so has called us to produce and so has called us to produce and so somewhere there's something broken and I somewhere there's something broken and I somewhere there's something broken and I think when we only look at the the think when we only look at the the think when we only look at the the bigger things and we don't talk about bigger things and we don't talk about bigger things and we don't talk about the thing underneath all of it which is the thing underneath all of it which is the thing underneath all of it which is discipleship I really believe we're discipleship I really believe we're discipleship I really believe we're going to continue to create what I I going to continue to create what I I going to continue to create what I I call half-hearted broken down Shadow at call half-hearted broken down Shadow at call half-hearted broken down Shadow at best and mediocre representatives of best and mediocre representatives of best and mediocre representatives of Christ and like he's he's been too good Christ and like he's he's been too good Christ and like he's he's been too good in your story and my story for us to in your story and my story for us to in your story and my story for us to settle for that so yeah so how do you settle for that so yeah so how do you settle for that so yeah so how do you see that like you know one of my see that like you know one of my see that like you know one of my challenges I literally ask leaders challenges I literally ask leaders challenges I literally ask leaders um how do you define discipleship I get um how do you define discipleship I get um how do you define discipleship I get 20 answers and they're all different and 20 answers and they're all different and 20 answers and they're all different and they don't even necessarily agree with they don't even necessarily agree with they don't even necessarily agree with each other and some people are hon each other and some people are hon each other and some people are hon honest and these are pastors they're honest and these are pastors they're honest and these are pastors they're honest enough to say you know I really honest enough to say you know I really honest enough to say you know I really don't know yeah how how do you define don't know yeah how how do you define don't know yeah how how do you define discipleship yeah so here's what I would discipleship yeah so here's what I would discipleship yeah so here's what I would say like it is hard to to be in a say like it is hard to to be in a say like it is hard to to be in a disciple but to understand discipleship disciple but to understand discipleship disciple but to understand discipleship shouldn't be a problem and so that's shouldn't be a problem and so that's shouldn't be a problem and so that's where I do struggle with I agree like where I do struggle with I agree like where I do struggle with I agree like you asked 20 pastors and we're the you asked 20 pastors and we're the you asked 20 pastors and we're the experts by the way experts by the way experts by the way yeah suppos to be yeah we're supposed to yeah suppos to be yeah we're supposed to yeah suppos to be yeah we're supposed to be and and you get 20 different be and and you get 20 different be and and you get 20 different definitions and so for me a disciple the

definitions and so for me a disciple the definitions and so for me a disciple the way I Define discipleship as you are are way I Define discipleship as you are are way I Define discipleship as you are are being and doing like your leader and uh being and doing like your leader and uh being and doing like your leader and uh for us our leader is Jesus and so the for us our leader is Jesus and so the for us our leader is Jesus and so the more we we be in the way that uh Jesus more we we be in the way that uh Jesus more we we be in the way that uh Jesus invites us and the more we do as he asks invites us and the more we do as he asks invites us and the more we do as he asks us uh the more we're going to be those us uh the more we're going to be those us uh the more we're going to be those great disciples that he calls us to be great disciples that he calls us to be great disciples that he calls us to be now of course that that is simple to now of course that that is simple to now of course that that is simple to understand but how to do that and understand but how to do that and understand but how to do that and actually live it out I think is where actually live it out I think is where actually live it out I think is where the challenge is but I I do think we the challenge is but I I do think we the challenge is but I I do think we ought to come back to the fact though ought to come back to the fact though ought to come back to the fact though that like we don't have to I'm All About that like we don't have to I'm All About that like we don't have to I'm All About new things and you know I love to think new things and you know I love to think new things and you know I love to think I'm you know an entrepreneurial creative I'm you know an entrepreneurial creative I'm you know an entrepreneurial creative guy but my answer for discipleship is guy but my answer for discipleship is guy but my answer for discipleship is actually we don't need to reinvent actually we don't need to reinvent actually we don't need to reinvent anything because God loves us so much he anything because God loves us so much he anything because God loves us so much he sent his son into the world to yes be sent his son into the world to yes be sent his son into the world to yes be our savior yes Be Our Redeemer but also our savior yes Be Our Redeemer but also our savior yes Be Our Redeemer but also to show us a way and to model for us to show us a way and to model for us to show us a way and to model for us what it looks like um to be in perfect what it looks like um to be in perfect what it looks like um to be in perfect relationship with God and so our goal relationship with God and so our goal relationship with God and so our goal then ought to be to look at Jesus as then ought to be to look at Jesus as then ought to be to look at Jesus as much as we possibly can and to learn much as we possibly can and to learn much as we possibly can and to learn from him and to put what he uh asked us from him and to put what he uh asked us from him and to put what he uh asked us to put into practice let's just practice to put into practice let's just practice to put into practice let's just practice that and do that so like that's the that and do that so like that's the that and do that so like that's the answer to discipleship now how we do answer to discipleship now how we do answer to discipleship now how we do that in our world is really challenging that in our world is really challenging that in our world is really challenging but to understand it shouldn't be as but to understand it shouldn't be as but to understand it shouldn't be as hard as we made it so when discipleship hard as we made it so when discipleship hard as we made it so when discipleship is broken let's get really is broken let's get really is broken let's get really practical what does that look like like practical what does that look like like practical what does that look like like what happens to leaders what happens to what happens to leaders what happens to what happens to leaders what happens to people when they are malformed you know people when they are malformed you know people when they are malformed you know to quote John Mark comr what what to quote John Mark comr what what to quote John Mark comr what what happens with that or or Pete cazo I mean happens with that or or Pete cazo I mean happens with that or or Pete cazo I mean it's a similar Vibe what what do you see

it's a similar Vibe what what do you see it's a similar Vibe what what do you see what are like if I'm looking at my life what are like if I'm looking at my life what are like if I'm looking at my life how do I know my discipleship is off how do I know my discipleship is off how do I know my discipleship is off yeah yeah I think it's good and I think yeah yeah I think it's good and I think yeah yeah I think it's good and I think what happens is kind of a a collective what happens is kind of a a collective what happens is kind of a a collective and a personal I would say there's and a personal I would say there's and a personal I would say there's answers to both of those so uh answers to both of those so uh answers to both of those so uh collectively what I think happens when collectively what I think happens when collectively what I think happens when we when we don't get this right or when we when we don't get this right or when we when we don't get this right or when we're Mal formed as you said I I think we're Mal formed as you said I I think we're Mal formed as you said I I think it just leads to a lot of it just leads to a lot of it just leads to a lot of Confusion And when we don't know what Confusion And when we don't know what Confusion And when we don't know what we're doing and and where to go and and we're doing and and where to go and and we're doing and and where to go and and what to aim at like it it just leads to what to aim at like it it just leads to what to aim at like it it just leads to the the representation of Jesus that the the representation of Jesus that the the representation of Jesus that right now in our nation like there is no right now in our nation like there is no right now in our nation like there is no differentiating factors between people differentiating factors between people differentiating factors between people that believe in Jesus and people that that believe in Jesus and people that that believe in Jesus and people that don't and that's super sad for me and so don't and that's super sad for me and so don't and that's super sad for me and so collectively like we've just settled for collectively like we've just settled for collectively like we've just settled for like I said this broken down Shadow at like I said this broken down Shadow at like I said this broken down Shadow at best represent that's super confusing best represent that's super confusing best represent that's super confusing why why would anyone want to follow why why would anyone want to follow why why would anyone want to follow Christ and what's the good news when our Christ and what's the good news when our Christ and what's the good news when our lives look no different than anybody lives look no different than anybody lives look no different than anybody else so that's the collective side I else so that's the collective side I else so that's the collective side I think on the personal side I think both think on the personal side I think both think on the personal side I think both as a follower just an everyday follower as a follower just an everyday follower as a follower just an everyday follower but also as a pastor I think it this is but also as a pastor I think it this is but also as a pastor I think it this is the opposite of what Jesus came to give the opposite of what Jesus came to give the opposite of what Jesus came to give us but I think it actually leads our our us but I think it actually leads our our us but I think it actually leads our our guilt in this leads to shame um because guilt in this leads to shame um because guilt in this leads to shame um because we know that this is important like you we know that this is important like you we know that this is important like you ask any pastor and they're like it's one ask any pastor and they're like it's one ask any pastor and they're like it's one of the most important things in fact in of the most important things in fact in of the most important things in fact in 2022 LifeWay research study and and and 2022 LifeWay research study and and and 2022 LifeWay research study and and and they asked pastors what's your greatest they asked pastors what's your greatest they asked pastors what's your greatest need that you're that you know you need need that you're that you know you need need that you're that you know you need to improve in and you're willing to to improve in and you're willing to to improve in and you're willing to invest in and at the top of that 63% was invest in and at the top of that 63% was invest in and at the top of that 63% was discipl making over all the other things

discipl making over all the other things discipl making over all the other things like communication and um you know like communication and um you know like communication and um you know technology all these things that are technology all these things that are technology all these things that are important discipl making is at the top important discipl making is at the top important discipl making is at the top which means pastors know it's important which means pastors know it's important which means pastors know it's important and it also means they don't know what and it also means they don't know what and it also means they don't know what to do and and so I think that leads to to do and and so I think that leads to to do and and so I think that leads to like shame like I know I should be doing like shame like I know I should be doing like shame like I know I should be doing this and I'm not and and I feel bad this and I'm not and and I feel bad this and I'm not and and I feel bad because I ought to be I ought to be because I ought to be I ought to be because I ought to be I ought to be doing this personally myself and I ought doing this personally myself and I ought doing this personally myself and I ought to be leading others in my church to be to be leading others in my church to be to be leading others in my church to be doing this oh man and that leads to doing this oh man and that leads to doing this oh man and that leads to shame and like that's the oh man the shame and like that's the oh man the shame and like that's the oh man the opposite of what Jesus came to give us opposite of what Jesus came to give us opposite of what Jesus came to give us and so yeah personal and Collective like and so yeah personal and Collective like and so yeah personal and Collective like it when we don't get this right it has it when we don't get this right it has it when we don't get this right it has serious ramifications of our Christian serious ramifications of our Christian serious ramifications of our Christian witness and even what uh how the enemy witness and even what uh how the enemy witness and even what uh how the enemy talks to us and and and the shame that talks to us and and and the shame that talks to us and and and the shame that he gives to us so you know my my take he gives to us so you know my my take he gives to us so you know my my take feel free to completely disagree is co feel free to completely disagree is co feel free to completely disagree is co hit 5 years ago now almost hit 5 years ago now almost hit 5 years ago now almost and we kind of realized wow we've got a and we kind of realized wow we've got a and we kind of realized wow we've got a very polarized tribalize angry group of very polarized tribalize angry group of very polarized tribalize angry group of people who call themselves Christians people who call themselves Christians people who call themselves Christians and the dialogue for the last five years and the dialogue for the last five years and the dialogue for the last five years has been discipleship discipleship has been discipleship discipleship has been discipleship discipleship because a lot of Christians walked away because a lot of Christians walked away because a lot of Christians walked away a lot of people left uh evangelism is a lot of people left uh evangelism is a lot of people left uh evangelism is almost on its deathbed right now we can almost on its deathbed right now we can almost on its deathbed right now we can talk about that some other time but talk about that some other time but talk about that some other time but discipleship has been the buzzword and discipleship has been the buzzword and discipleship has been the buzzword and yet what you see yet what you see yet what you see is Christians as as you hinted at I is Christians as as you hinted at I is Christians as as you hinted at I think in in large measure becoming more think in in large measure becoming more think in in large measure becoming more Angry more the opposite of the fruits of Angry more the opposite of the fruits of Angry more the opposite of the fruits of the spirit more politicized tribalize

the spirit more politicized tribalize the spirit more politicized tribalize weaponized angry than ever weaponized angry than ever weaponized angry than ever before I'd love your take on on why before I'd love your take on on why before I'd love your take on on why discipleship seems to be having a moment discipleship seems to be having a moment discipleship seems to be having a moment as a topic and then why Christians as a topic and then why Christians as a topic and then why Christians particularly particularly particularly evangelicals probably are are are evangelicals probably are are are evangelicals probably are are are becoming less like Jesus not more like becoming less like Jesus not more like becoming less like Jesus not more like Jesus there's my editorial comment again Jesus there's my editorial comment again Jesus there's my editorial comment again feel free to take this where you want feel free to take this where you want feel free to take this where you want feel free to completely disagree with me feel free to completely disagree with me feel free to completely disagree with me I I totally agree with you by the way um I I totally agree with you by the way um I I totally agree with you by the way um don't don't worry about the disagreeing don't don't worry about the disagreeing don't don't worry about the disagreeing part I think in covid what we realized part I think in covid what we realized part I think in covid what we realized is gosh there's a I think what we is gosh there's a I think what we is gosh there's a I think what we realize collectively at least in the realize collectively at least in the realize collectively at least in the American churches is like we've gotten American churches is like we've gotten American churches is like we've gotten really good at creating Believers but we really good at creating Believers but we really good at creating Believers but we have created very few followers and have created very few followers and have created very few followers and that's a big part of my message is like that's a big part of my message is like that's a big part of my message is like you can believe in Jesus which is great you can believe in Jesus which is great you can believe in Jesus which is great for your eternity and you should live in for your eternity and you should live in for your eternity and you should live in that confidence and that eternal that confidence and that eternal that confidence and that eternal security but the Abundant Life that security but the Abundant Life that security but the Abundant Life that Jesus talks about in John 10:10 I really Jesus talks about in John 10:10 I really Jesus talks about in John 10:10 I really believe is found right now his kingdom believe is found right now his kingdom believe is found right now his kingdom is here right now you can be a disciple is here right now you can be a disciple is here right now you can be a disciple right now you can get glimpses of it right now you can get glimpses of it right now you can get glimpses of it right now and and until we live that out right now and and until we live that out right now and and until we live that out and experience that like you can somehow and experience that like you can somehow and experience that like you can somehow believe in Jesus and settle for some believe in Jesus and settle for some believe in Jesus and settle for some mediocre life and that's not what God mediocre life and that's not what God mediocre life and that's not what God wanted to give you and so I really think wanted to give you and so I really think wanted to give you and so I really think what happened in Co is we recog what happened in Co is we recog what happened in Co is we recog recognized that there is a difference recognized that there is a difference recognized that there is a difference between believing in Jesus and actually between believing in Jesus and actually between believing in Jesus and actually following him and while we've gotten following him and while we've gotten following him and while we've gotten really good in all of our tribes to you really good in all of our tribes to you really good in all of our tribes to you know get people to the Waters of baptism know get people to the Waters of baptism know get people to the Waters of baptism or to conversion or in some circles to

or to conversion or in some circles to or to conversion or in some circles to make a decision of Faith we've gotten make a decision of Faith we've gotten make a decision of Faith we've gotten really good at doing that and we ought really good at doing that and we ought really good at doing that and we ought to celebrate those moments that's to celebrate those moments that's to celebrate those moments that's awesome it's really great to believe in awesome it's really great to believe in awesome it's really great to believe in Jesus but that confidence in your Jesus but that confidence in your Jesus but that confidence in your eternal security is meant to produce a eternal security is meant to produce a eternal security is meant to produce a different person right now as you live different person right now as you live different person right now as you live in this world and so and so that's where in this world and so and so that's where in this world and so and so that's where I think the gap is is we I think the gap is is we I think the gap is is we recognized that there's something deeper recognized that there's something deeper recognized that there's something deeper underneath all of this than even underneath all of this than even underneath all of this than even believing in Jesus that we've got to believing in Jesus that we've got to believing in Jesus that we've got to bring more into the everyday we've got bring more into the everyday we've got bring more into the everyday we've got to under help people see that Jesus to under help people see that Jesus to under help people see that Jesus makes a difference in how to live makes a difference in how to live makes a difference in how to live practically as a disciple so that they practically as a disciple so that they practically as a disciple so that they can not only have the blessing of can not only have the blessing of can not only have the blessing of eternal life but really I think eternal life but really I think eternal life but really I think experience and not settle for a mediocre experience and not settle for a mediocre experience and not settle for a mediocre life they can get the Abundant Life now life they can get the Abundant Life now life they can get the Abundant Life now and so that really I think was was kind and so that really I think was was kind and so that really I think was was kind of elevated in covid times and and until of elevated in covid times and and until of elevated in covid times and and until and so that we kind of recognized it and so that we kind of recognized it and so that we kind of recognized it then and now I think it's the buzzword then and now I think it's the buzzword then and now I think it's the buzzword but I think everybody's still trying to but I think everybody's still trying to but I think everybody's still trying to figure this out and so I've really been figure this out and so I've really been figure this out and so I've really been blessed you know since I'd say 20 2011 blessed you know since I'd say 20 2011 blessed you know since I'd say 20 2011 is when I really started thinking about is when I really started thinking about is when I really started thinking about discipleship more but probably discipleship more but probably discipleship more but probably especially more in the last seven eight especially more in the last seven eight especially more in the last seven eight years to like live in this discipleship years to like live in this discipleship years to like live in this discipleship space more than most and and so I've space more than most and and so I've space more than most and and so I've really been blessed to like have this really been blessed to like have this really been blessed to like have this moment uh probably prior to covid where moment uh probably prior to covid where moment uh probably prior to covid where I'm already asking simple questions that I'm already asking simple questions that I'm already asking simple questions that can kind of help people understand more can kind of help people understand more can kind of help people understand more I hope about what it means to be a I hope about what it means to be a I hope about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus and I think the real disciple of Jesus and I think the real disciple of Jesus and I think the real problem is we recognize that that's problem is we recognize that that's problem is we recognize that that's underneath it all but until we get a underneath it all but until we get a underneath it all but until we get a little bit above that and and and kind little bit above that and and and kind little bit above that and and and kind of get more practical okay I get it that

of get more practical okay I get it that of get more practical okay I get it that that's really important now how do I do that's really important now how do I do that's really important now how do I do it is the question most people jump to it is the question most people jump to it is the question most people jump to and I think it's the wrong first and I think it's the wrong first and I think it's the wrong first question and to me the right first question and to me the right first question and to me the right first question with discipl making with question with discipl making with question with discipl making with discipleship is this are you really discipleship is this are you really discipleship is this are you really committed to following Jesus that's it committed to following Jesus that's it committed to following Jesus that's it like are you committed to following like are you committed to following like are you committed to following Jesus because his answers are in the Jesus because his answers are in the Jesus because his answers are in the gospels for us and now we need to get a gospels for us and now we need to get a gospels for us and now we need to get a little more granular a little more little more granular a little more little more granular a little more practical about what that means to to to practical about what that means to to to practical about what that means to to to daily live it out but the question every daily live it out but the question every daily live it out but the question every one of us has to wrestle with if we one of us has to wrestle with if we one of us has to wrestle with if we believe in Jesus is are we committed to believe in Jesus is are we committed to believe in Jesus is are we committed to truly following him and if we are cool truly following him and if we are cool truly following him and if we are cool now let's have a conversation and let's now let's have a conversation and let's now let's have a conversation and let's talk about practical things of what it talk about practical things of what it talk about practical things of what it looks like to follow Jesus so if I had a looks like to follow Jesus so if I had a looks like to follow Jesus so if I had a 15c definition of discipleship you're 15c definition of discipleship you're 15c definition of discipleship you're like okay what does it actually mean like okay what does it actually mean like okay what does it actually mean where's this all going I would say it where's this all going I would say it where's this all going I would say it looks an awful lot like the fruits of looks an awful lot like the fruits of looks an awful lot like the fruits of the Holy Spirit love joy peace patience the Holy Spirit love joy peace patience the Holy Spirit love joy peace patience kindness gentleness faithfulness kindness gentleness faithfulness kindness gentleness faithfulness self-control and when it comes to truth self-control and when it comes to truth self-control and when it comes to truth it is always inseparably fused with it is always inseparably fused with it is always inseparably fused with Grace Grace is fused with truth truth is Grace Grace is fused with truth truth is Grace Grace is fused with truth truth is is one with Grace it's about it that's is one with Grace it's about it that's is one with Grace it's about it that's what my life should be looking more and what my life should be looking more and what my life should be looking more and more like every year some days I get it more like every year some days I get it more like every year some days I get it some days I don't some episodes I'm some days I don't some episodes I'm some days I don't some episodes I'm there some episodes I'm not you know there some episodes I'm not you know there some episodes I'm not you know welcome to this side of Eternity that's welcome to this side of Eternity that's welcome to this side of Eternity that's my 15c summary I'd love to hear yours I my 15c summary I'd love to hear yours I my 15c summary I'd love to hear yours I love it and I think I think that's love it and I think I think that's love it and I think I think that's really good Carrie I think there's a really good Carrie I think there's a really good Carrie I think there's a piece in the middle that I feel like is piece in the middle that I feel like is piece in the middle that I feel like is really important to talk about that a really important to talk about that a really important to talk about that a lot of people miss and a lot of churches lot of people miss and a lot of churches lot of people miss and a lot of churches Miss and so yeah I'm all about the

Miss and so yeah I'm all about the Miss and so yeah I'm all about the fruits of spirit love joy peace patience fruits of spirit love joy peace patience fruits of spirit love joy peace patience kindness goodness and those ought to be kindness goodness and those ought to be kindness goodness and those ought to be the outcomes of what we experience but the outcomes of what we experience but the outcomes of what we experience but to me it's there's a piece in the middle to me it's there's a piece in the middle to me it's there's a piece in the middle that I I just call it targets like that I I just call it targets like that I I just call it targets like that's great love joy peace patience but that's great love joy peace patience but that's great love joy peace patience but also I just kind of need to know what to also I just kind of need to know what to also I just kind of need to know what to do follow Christ and so it's hard to say do follow Christ and so it's hard to say do follow Christ and so it's hard to say do love do Joy do Peace So what are the do love do Joy do Peace So what are the do love do Joy do Peace So what are the tangible things that I can do so this a tangible things that I can do so this a tangible things that I can do so this a true story at the church I was at in true story at the church I was at in true story at the church I was at in Florida where it really helped me think Florida where it really helped me think Florida where it really helped me think about this more is we had somebody that about this more is we had somebody that about this more is we had somebody that was new to the faith and I was blessed was new to the faith and I was blessed was new to the faith and I was blessed to actually be able to introduce him to to actually be able to introduce him to to actually be able to introduce him to the faith and he started coming to the faith and he started coming to the faith and he started coming to church and he was baptized and like it church and he was baptized and like it church and he was baptized and like it was a big moment like his family came was a big moment like his family came was a big moment like his family came friends came and it was really awesome friends came and it was really awesome friends came and it was really awesome to see like our church celebrated like to see like our church celebrated like to see like our church celebrated like crazy we were small church plan at that crazy we were small church plan at that crazy we were small church plan at that time so any baptism baptisms are always time so any baptism baptisms are always time so any baptism baptisms are always awesome to celebrate yeah they are and awesome to celebrate yeah they are and awesome to celebrate yeah they are and and so a week later he came up to me and and so a week later he came up to me and and so a week later he came up to me and he said Zach it was an awesome moment um he said Zach it was an awesome moment um he said Zach it was an awesome moment um I don't feel any different and I don't I don't feel any different and I don't I don't feel any different and I don't know what to do what do I do and and know what to do what do I do and and know what to do what do I do and and this is my answer to him which I felt this is my answer to him which I felt this is my answer to him which I felt horrible about after which is a really horrible about after which is a really horrible about after which is a really good Seminary answer car but not a great good Seminary answer car but not a great good Seminary answer car but not a great answer for what he was asking um I said answer for what he was asking um I said answer for what he was asking um I said I said nothing you don't need to do I said nothing you don't need to do I said nothing you don't need to do anything you're already saved by grace anything you're already saved by grace anything you're already saved by grace it's good bro you're good and again a it's good bro you're good and again a it's good bro you're good and again a really good Seminary answer about our really good Seminary answer about our really good Seminary answer about our eternity but what he was asking me was eternity but what he was asking me was eternity but what he was asking me was for handles of like practically how do I for handles of like practically how do I for handles of like practically how do I get better at following Jesus and I get better at following Jesus and I get better at following Jesus and I didn't have the answer and that sent me didn't have the answer and that sent me didn't have the answer and that sent me on a long journey of like what do we do on a long journey of like what do we do on a long journey of like what do we do and my answer for this was it makes and my answer for this was it makes and my answer for this was it makes total sense um this is not my idea it's

total sense um this is not my idea it's total sense um this is not my idea it's Jesus's idea um that we ought to hear Jesus's idea um that we ought to hear Jesus's idea um that we ought to hear the words of Jesus and put them into the words of Jesus and put them into the words of Jesus and put them into practice this is end of Sermon on the practice this is end of Sermon on the practice this is end of Sermon on the Mount this beautiful countercultural Mount this beautiful countercultural Mount this beautiful countercultural amazing all inspiring sermon that Jesus amazing all inspiring sermon that Jesus amazing all inspiring sermon that Jesus gives and at the end of it like it's so gives and at the end of it like it's so gives and at the end of it like it's so simple like it feels like the three simple like it feels like the three simple like it feels like the three little ripped them off if you want your little ripped them off if you want your little ripped them off if you want your house to stand when the storms come pra house to stand when the storms come pra house to stand when the storms come pra hear what I say put it into practice and hear what I say put it into practice and hear what I say put it into practice and so that I know I'm going more than 15 so that I know I'm going more than 15 so that I know I'm going more than 15 seconds but I want to kind of um get get seconds but I want to kind of um get get seconds but I want to kind of um get get you like the piece that I think is you like the piece that I think is you like the piece that I think is missing in so many people is that put me missing in so many people is that put me missing in so many people is that put me on a long journey then to look then at on a long journey then to look then at on a long journey then to look then at everything that Jesus said uh we we call everything that Jesus said uh we we call everything that Jesus said uh we we call it those red letters in a lot of your it those red letters in a lot of your it those red letters in a lot of your Bibles what did Jesus say and I was Bibles what did Jesus say and I was Bibles what did Jesus say and I was particularly looking at what are the particularly looking at what are the particularly looking at what are the commands the the calls the things that commands the the calls the things that commands the the calls the things that Jesus asks us to do and and because Jesus asks us to do and and because Jesus asks us to do and and because that's really got to be where where that's really got to be where where that's really got to be where where where we find what it looks like to be a where we find what it looks like to be a where we find what it looks like to be a disciple is Jesus came and he asked us disciple is Jesus came and he asked us disciple is Jesus came and he asked us he told us what to do so what did he do he told us what to do so what did he do he told us what to do so what did he do and and and so I just jotted down and and and so I just jotted down and and and so I just jotted down everything I could and at the end of it everything I could and at the end of it everything I could and at the end of it I was trying to find it's not an I was trying to find it's not an I was trying to find it's not an exhaustive list but my simple brain can exhaustive list but my simple brain can exhaustive list but my simple brain can remember five things so what are the remember five things so what are the remember five things so what are the five targets that I feel like came out five targets that I feel like came out five targets that I feel like came out of the mouth of Jesus the most when it of the mouth of Jesus the most when it of the mouth of Jesus the most when it came to his imperatives his commands his came to his imperatives his commands his came to his imperatives his commands his calls and these are the targets for me calls and these are the targets for me calls and these are the targets for me is it came from starts with being which is it came from starts with being which is it came from starts with being which is all about growing in our relationship is all about growing in our relationship is all about growing in our relationship with God forgiving serving giving and with God forgiving serving giving and with God forgiving serving giving and then going and and that going is a then going and and that going is a then going and and that going is a sharing the gospel it's a making sharing the gospel it's a making sharing the gospel it's a making disciples it's a leadership development disciples it's a leadership development disciples it's a leadership development side of things but being forgiving side of things but being forgiving side of things but being forgiving sharing giving going I think those are

sharing giving going I think those are sharing giving going I think those are the targets that I think a lot of and I the targets that I think a lot of and I the targets that I think a lot of and I always tell pastors you can choose other always tell pastors you can choose other always tell pastors you can choose other ones if you want um and I can help you ones if you want um and I can help you ones if you want um and I can help you choose those and we can talk about what choose those and we can talk about what choose those and we can talk about what it looks like to choose targets to fit it looks like to choose targets to fit it looks like to choose targets to fit for your context but like those are the for your context but like those are the for your context but like those are the things then that if we're doing those things then that if we're doing those things then that if we're doing those things enough should produce the fruits things enough should produce the fruits things enough should produce the fruits of the spirit that God gives to us and of the spirit that God gives to us and of the spirit that God gives to us and so when we don't know where to aim we're so when we don't know where to aim we're so when we don't know where to aim we're we're going to be super confused the we're going to be super confused the we're going to be super confused the entire time but when we can kind of get entire time but when we can kind of get entire time but when we can kind of get something we're aiming at um to at least something we're aiming at um to at least something we're aiming at um to at least be a start I I really challenge pastors be a start I I really challenge pastors be a start I I really challenge pastors to start with like let's identify what to start with like let's identify what to start with like let's identify what targets you could you could hit at your targets you could you could hit at your targets you could you could hit at your church so why are we getting it why does church so why are we getting it why does church so why are we getting it why does the discipleship crisis not seem to be the discipleship crisis not seem to be the discipleship crisis not seem to be going away why do we seem to be the going away why do we seem to be the going away why do we seem to be the opposite of perhaps what we are supposed opposite of perhaps what we are supposed opposite of perhaps what we are supposed to to to be I think it comes back to that are you be I think it comes back to that are you be I think it comes back to that are you committed to following Jesus I think committed to following Jesus I think committed to following Jesus I think it's really hard I I think in the end of it's really hard I I think in the end of it's really hard I I think in the end of it like God's been so good in all of our it like God's been so good in all of our it like God's been so good in all of our stories but we get caught up in a world stories but we get caught up in a world stories but we get caught up in a world that just offers some really really that just offers some really really that just offers some really really beautiful things to us offers us a lot beautiful things to us offers us a lot beautiful things to us offers us a lot of Glitz and Glamour and our eyes can of Glitz and Glamour and our eyes can of Glitz and Glamour and our eyes can get enamored our hearts can get enamored get enamored our hearts can get enamored get enamored our hearts can get enamored with the things of this world and we with the things of this world and we with the things of this world and we settle I know I do I settle for Comfort settle I know I do I settle for Comfort settle I know I do I settle for Comfort far too often it's an of mine and and to far too often it's an of mine and and to far too often it's an of mine and and to be a disciple of Jesus again I always be a disciple of Jesus again I always be a disciple of Jesus again I always say it's simple to understand but it's say it's simple to understand but it's say it's simple to understand but it's uncomfortable it's not easy for me to go uncomfortable it's not easy for me to go uncomfortable it's not easy for me to go out and tell somebody about Jesus or out and tell somebody about Jesus or out and tell somebody about Jesus or share the good news or share my faith share the good news or share my faith share the good news or share my faith with strangers or with people that I'm with strangers or with people that I'm with strangers or with people that I'm in everyday relationship with um it's in everyday relationship with um it's in everyday relationship with um it's not easy for me uh when you talk about

not easy for me uh when you talk about not easy for me uh when you talk about giving to sacrifice and when I really giving to sacrifice and when I really giving to sacrifice and when I really look at how Jesus gave me like to to to look at how Jesus gave me like to to to look at how Jesus gave me like to to to give the way that he gave are you give the way that he gave are you give the way that he gave are you kidding me like that is a challenge and kidding me like that is a challenge and kidding me like that is a challenge and it's just un comfortable so I really it's just un comfortable so I really it's just un comfortable so I really think that like that's the truth of it think that like that's the truth of it think that like that's the truth of it is like it's our broken sinful nature is like it's our broken sinful nature is like it's our broken sinful nature that we get caught up in this world and that we get caught up in this world and that we get caught up in this world and we don't like the answer um that Jesus we don't like the answer um that Jesus we don't like the answer um that Jesus provides and we don't like the things provides and we don't like the things provides and we don't like the things that Jesus calls us to do and so it's that Jesus calls us to do and so it's that Jesus calls us to do and so it's really hard I would say on the flip side really hard I would say on the flip side really hard I would say on the flip side of it though Carrie I think it offers of it though Carrie I think it offers of it though Carrie I think it offers for people like I said the Abundant Life for people like I said the Abundant Life for people like I said the Abundant Life so many people today are searching for so many people today are searching for so many people today are searching for meaning purpose fulfillment significance meaning purpose fulfillment significance meaning purpose fulfillment significance joy happiness use whatever words you joy happiness use whatever words you joy happiness use whatever words you want they all kind of fall in that same want they all kind of fall in that same want they all kind of fall in that same category and I would say that though category and I would say that though category and I would say that though being a disciple of Jesus is hard it it being a disciple of Jesus is hard it it being a disciple of Jesus is hard it it provides significance and meaning and provides significance and meaning and provides significance and meaning and purpose and those things I think the purpose and those things I think the purpose and those things I think the more You' put them into practice and and more You' put them into practice and and more You' put them into practice and and kind of exercise that discipleship kind of exercise that discipleship kind of exercise that discipleship muscle those things end up winning the muscle those things end up winning the muscle those things end up winning the day um in a world that is very very day um in a world that is very very day um in a world that is very very tempting and very challenging to push us tempting and very challenging to push us tempting and very challenging to push us in the other direction so I think we in the other direction so I think we in the other direction so I think we just have to wrestle with like are we just have to wrestle with like are we just have to wrestle with like are we committed to doing this and is Jesus committed to doing this and is Jesus committed to doing this and is Jesus that good enough in our stories that that good enough in our stories that that good enough in our stories that we're committed to do the uncomfortable we're committed to do the uncomfortable we're committed to do the uncomfortable things do the hard stuff and in the end things do the hard stuff and in the end things do the hard stuff and in the end make a difference which is really fun so make a difference which is really fun so make a difference which is really fun so going back to being which is really on going back to being which is really on going back to being which is really on my mind a lot these days when I think my mind a lot these days when I think my mind a lot these days when I think about the fruit of what we are producing about the fruit of what we are producing about the fruit of what we are producing which is really kind of a a take on

which is really kind of a a take on which is really kind of a a take on discipleship studies for the last 20 30 discipleship studies for the last 20 30 discipleship studies for the last 20 30 years have consistently shown unchurched years have consistently shown unchurched years have consistently shown unchurched people's number one gripe with people's number one gripe with people's number one gripe with Christians is our hypocrisy our anger Christians is our hypocrisy our anger Christians is our hypocrisy our anger our judgmentalism our narrow-mindedness our judgmentalism our narrow-mindedness our judgmentalism our narrow-mindedness our bigotry our all of the above in our bigotry our all of the above in our bigotry our all of the above in other words they look at Jesus and go he other words they look at Jesus and go he other words they look at Jesus and go he wasn't that but you guys it's it's a wasn't that but you guys it's it's a wasn't that but you guys it's it's a take on Gandhi who says I like your take on Gandhi who says I like your take on Gandhi who says I like your Christ don't like your Christians right Christ don't like your Christians right Christ don't like your Christians right so when it comes to a state of being do so when it comes to a state of being do so when it comes to a state of being do you have any theories on why it's not you have any theories on why it's not you have any theories on why it's not getting better and arguably becoming getting better and arguably becoming getting better and arguably becoming maybe a tad maybe a tad maybe a tad worse yeah I I would Echo like we teach worse yeah I I would Echo like we teach worse yeah I I would Echo like we teach those five targets be forgive serve give those five targets be forgive serve give those five targets be forgive serve give go and after a couple of years of go and after a couple of years of go and after a couple of years of writing about this and and some folks writing about this and and some folks writing about this and and some folks using our our material um I really did using our our material um I really did using our our material um I really did recognize that all five targets are recognize that all five targets are recognize that all five targets are important I believe being is the most important I believe being is the most important I believe being is the most important of the five well the rest important of the five well the rest important of the five well the rest flows out of being right like if if flows out of being right like if if flows out of being right like if if you're just if you're just going and you're just if you're just going and you're just if you're just going and serving and sharing and you're doing it serving and sharing and you're doing it serving and sharing and you're doing it then you pretty much have work salvation then you pretty much have work salvation then you pretty much have work salvation at that point um you know but out of at that point um you know but out of at that point um you know but out of being being in itself is not knowledge being being in itself is not knowledge being being in itself is not knowledge it's love and love compels us love moves it's love and love compels us love moves it's love and love compels us love moves us out so that's what that's what I'm us out so that's what that's what I'm us out so that's what that's what I'm really thinking through and I'm honestly really thinking through and I'm honestly really thinking through and I'm honestly like I'm not sitting here on the answer like I'm not sitting here on the answer like I'm not sitting here on the answer I am baffled as to why we are not making I am baffled as to why we are not making I am baffled as to why we are not making more progress and as as you know being a more progress and as as you know being a more progress and as as you know being a longtime listener and we've known each longtime listener and we've known each longtime listener and we've known each other for years that's why I keep doing other for years that's why I keep doing other for years that's why I keep doing this I just keep asking the question this I just keep asking the question this I just keep asking the question over and over again and getting over and over again and getting over and over again and getting different takes trying to figure out

different takes trying to figure out different takes trying to figure out what what the heck is going on yeah and what what the heck is going on yeah and what what the heck is going on yeah and I think that that's so good like right I think that that's so good like right I think that that's so good like right right Grace is what compels us so right Grace is what compels us so right Grace is what compels us so obviously yeah for me the answer if all obviously yeah for me the answer if all obviously yeah for me the answer if all if all the doing things are not showing if all the doing things are not showing if all the doing things are not showing up well and they're not because the up well and they're not because the up well and they're not because the targets we're known for as you said are targets we're known for as you said are targets we're known for as you said are judgmental hypocrisy um bigotry division judgmental hypocrisy um bigotry division judgmental hypocrisy um bigotry division all those things and this is part of all those things and this is part of all those things and this is part of like the the case for this Carrie I like the the case for this Carrie I like the the case for this Carrie I first read about that in the book on first read about that in the book on first read about that in the book on Christian 2010 I Christian 2010 I Christian 2010 I think yeah was when that that book came think yeah was when that that book came think yeah was when that that book came out and and for me as you think about it out and and for me as you think about it out and and for me as you think about it like one of the first words I think like one of the first words I think like one of the first words I think about for Jesus is Grace and yet we're about for Jesus is Grace and yet we're about for Jesus is Grace and yet we're known for judgment like we're not just known for judgment like we're not just known for judgment like we're not just missing the mark by a little bit by missing the mark by a little bit by missing the mark by a little bit by definition those are polar opposites definition those are polar opposites definition those are polar opposites Grace is getting a free gift that you Grace is getting a free gift that you Grace is getting a free gift that you don't deserve judgment is getting don't deserve judgment is getting don't deserve judgment is getting exactly what you do deserve and so it's exactly what you do deserve and so it's exactly what you do deserve and so it's not like we're Jesus is here and we're not like we're Jesus is here and we're not like we're Jesus is here and we're super close to him like we're the super close to him like we're the super close to him like we're the opposite something's got to change and I opposite something's got to change and I opposite something's got to change and I really do believe it does happen with really do believe it does happen with really do believe it does happen with being the answer in our doing problems being the answer in our doing problems being the answer in our doing problems is not gritting our teeth together and is not gritting our teeth together and is not gritting our teeth together and I'm just going to be more loving and I'm I'm just going to be more loving and I'm I'm just going to be more loving and I'm gonna go be forgiving and I'm GNA serve gonna go be forgiving and I'm GNA serve gonna go be forgiving and I'm GNA serve because Pastor tells me to serve no if because Pastor tells me to serve no if because Pastor tells me to serve no if if we're having a doing problem my hunch if we're having a doing problem my hunch if we're having a doing problem my hunch is we're probably having a being issue is we're probably having a being issue is we're probably having a being issue and before ever asks us to do anything and before ever asks us to do anything and before ever asks us to do anything he invites us to be in a relationship he invites us to be in a relationship he invites us to be in a relationship with him and so this is when my brain with him and so this is when my brain with him and so this is when my brain then went further with being of if we then went further with being of if we then went further with being of if we think about it again amazing that God think about it again amazing that God think about it again amazing that God sent Jesus into this world wouldn't it sent Jesus into this world wouldn't it sent Jesus into this world wouldn't it be cool if there was one person in this be cool if there was one person in this be cool if there was one person in this world carry that was in perfect world carry that was in perfect world carry that was in perfect relationship with God that we could relationship with God that we could relationship with God that we could learn from and we could like practice

learn from and we could like practice learn from and we could like practice the habits that he practiced and so then the habits that he practiced and so then the habits that he practiced and so then my brain went further in this journey of my brain went further in this journey of my brain went further in this journey of like well what does it look like to be U like well what does it look like to be U like well what does it look like to be U the way that Jesus be I don't that the way that Jesus be I don't that the way that Jesus be I don't that doesn't make sense in grammatically but doesn't make sense in grammatically but doesn't make sense in grammatically but what did Jesus do in order to be with what did Jesus do in order to be with what did Jesus do in order to be with God if that makes sense and and so my God if that makes sense and and so my God if that makes sense and and so my next project was then looking at all the next project was then looking at all the next project was then looking at all the some would call them spiritual some would call them spiritual some would call them spiritual disciplines I really like the with the disciplines I really like the with the disciplines I really like the with the new science and and stuff the the new science and and stuff the the new science and and stuff the the Charles doig Keystone habits what are Charles doig Keystone habits what are Charles doig Keystone habits what are the Keystone habits that Jesus had in the Keystone habits that Jesus had in the Keystone habits that Jesus had in his life that helped him connect with his life that helped him connect with his life that helped him connect with God while he was here in this world if God while he was here in this world if God while he was here in this world if he had habits in his life um and I want he had habits in his life um and I want he had habits in his life um and I want to be more like him I should probably to be more like him I should probably to be more like him I should probably have those same habits in my life and so have those same habits in my life and so have those same habits in my life and so I went on another journey to look into I went on another journey to look into I went on another journey to look into the gospels and read what were the the gospels and read what were the the gospels and read what were the habits and I was again not trying to habits and I was again not trying to habits and I was again not trying to find 20 or 30 because you can you can find 20 or 30 because you can you can find 20 or 30 because you can you can get lists that high of spiritual get lists that high of spiritual get lists that high of spiritual disciplines but what are the five habits disciplines but what are the five habits disciplines but what are the five habits that Jesus had in his life that that Jesus had in his life that that Jesus had in his life that connected with God and and you find that connected with God and and you find that connected with God and and you find that he committed to community he studied he committed to community he studied he committed to community he studied scripture he prioritized prayer he scripture he prioritized prayer he scripture he prioritized prayer he sought Solitude and he chose church sought Solitude and he chose church sought Solitude and he chose church church was different for him but every church was different for him but every church was different for him but every day he went to the the temple courts and day he went to the the temple courts and day he went to the the temple courts and he not only listened and but he also he not only listened and but he also he not only listened and but he also participated and so you know these are participated and so you know these are participated and so you know these are if if Jesus had these in his life we if if Jesus had these in his life we if if Jesus had these in his life we should have them in our life that's my should have them in our life that's my should have them in our life that's my main point in all this Carrie is like we main point in all this Carrie is like we main point in all this Carrie is like we don't have to look far we just got to don't have to look far we just got to don't have to look far we just got to study Jesus and and and and do what he study Jesus and and and and do what he study Jesus and and and and do what he said and be in the way that he was with said and be in the way that he was with said and be in the way that he was with God and and this stuff hopefully will

God and and this stuff hopefully will God and and this stuff hopefully will the needle will move and we be no more the needle will move and we be no more the needle will move and we be no more known less for words like judgment known less for words like judgment known less for words like judgment hypocrisy bigoted divisive and more for hypocrisy bigoted divisive and more for hypocrisy bigoted divisive and more for the words of Christ which is really what the words of Christ which is really what the words of Christ which is really what we're after so I want to Pivot a little we're after so I want to Pivot a little we're after so I want to Pivot a little bit and talk about your story because bit and talk about your story because bit and talk about your story because you're you're doing all this and writing you're you're doing all this and writing you're you're doing all this and writing on this and speaking on this while on this and speaking on this while on this and speaking on this while you're pastoring in a local church and I you're pastoring in a local church and I you're pastoring in a local church and I want to go back you know you planted a want to go back you know you planted a want to go back you know you planted a church from scratch you transitioned a church from scratch you transitioned a church from scratch you transitioned a couple years ago to become a teaching couple years ago to become a teaching couple years ago to become a teaching pastor at a very large growing Lutheran pastor at a very large growing Lutheran pastor at a very large growing Lutheran Church in the midwest would it be the Church in the midwest would it be the Church in the midwest would it be the Midwest yeah Nebraska go Big Red baby Midwest yeah Nebraska go Big Red baby Midwest yeah Nebraska go Big Red baby yeah there you go Nebraska there you are yeah there you go Nebraska there you are yeah there you go Nebraska there you are so I'd love to I'd love to go back to so I'd love to I'd love to go back to so I'd love to I'd love to go back to what what prompted you to launch a what what prompted you to launch a what what prompted you to launch a church to start a church and you did it church to start a church and you did it church to start a church and you did it in the context of a Mainline in the context of a Mainline in the context of a Mainline denomination I mean we've got I I think denomination I mean we've got I I think denomination I mean we've got I I think Evangelical non- denominational is now Evangelical non- denominational is now Evangelical non- denominational is now the biggest denomination in the us but the biggest denomination in the us but the biggest denomination in the us but we have a lot of denominational leaders we have a lot of denominational leaders we have a lot of denominational leaders listening as well so take us back to listening as well so take us back to listening as well so take us back to that moment what caused you to launch a that moment what caused you to launch a that moment what caused you to launch a church yeah I think specifically the church yeah I think specifically the church yeah I think specifically the church planting side like the more you church planting side like the more you church planting side like the more you know my story I like I've always been know my story I like I've always been know my story I like I've always been kind of kind of kind of entrepreneurial uh even in in College entrepreneurial uh even in in College entrepreneurial uh even in in College and Seminary and even the first like six and Seminary and even the first like six and Seminary and even the first like six years of our church plant in Florida I years of our church plant in Florida I years of our church plant in Florida I had a business where I was selling golf had a business where I was selling golf had a business where I was selling golf head covers uh you know the brand named head covers uh you know the brand named head covers uh you know the brand named head covers where I'd buy them in bulk head covers where I'd buy them in bulk head covers where I'd buy them in bulk and sell them online individually and and sell them online individually and and sell them online individually and that was like my primary source of that was like my primary source of that was like my primary source of income uh even as we started the church income uh even as we started the church income uh even as we started the church plan it was a bivocational thing sorry plan it was a bivocational thing sorry plan it was a bivocational thing sorry let's back that up you bought bulk head

let's back that up you bought bulk head let's back that up you bought bulk head covers for golf clubs yep and you sold covers for golf clubs yep and you sold covers for golf clubs yep and you sold them individually and the spread was them individually and the spread was them individually and the spread was your income yeah exactly so we we would your income yeah exactly so we we would your income yeah exactly so we we would yes we would go through Seminary and yes we would go through Seminary and yes we would go through Seminary and that was uh you know we took an extra that was uh you know we took an extra that was uh you know we took an extra year in seminary because the business year in seminary because the business year in seminary because the business was was going well and and that paid for was was going well and and that paid for was was going well and and that paid for Seminary and really allowed us to we Seminary and really allowed us to we Seminary and really allowed us to we started with a bivocational call where started with a bivocational call where started with a bivocational call where that was my primary source of income and that was my primary source of income and that was my primary source of income and uh and so I've always been wired that uh and so I've always been wired that uh and so I've always been wired that way so church planting was like is like way so church planting was like is like way so church planting was like is like the entrepreneurial side of church and the entrepreneurial side of church and the entrepreneurial side of church and so I thought that could be a fit for me so I thought that could be a fit for me so I thought that could be a fit for me and so that that's kind of the Church and so that that's kind of the Church and so that that's kind of the Church Plant side I would say the other piece Plant side I would say the other piece Plant side I would say the other piece about it too Carrie I'm a fourth about it too Carrie I'm a fourth about it too Carrie I'm a fourth generation Lutheran Church Missouri generation Lutheran Church Missouri generation Lutheran Church Missouri sended pastor and so I stand on broad sended pastor and so I stand on broad sended pastor and so I stand on broad shoulders of my dad my grandpa my great shoulders of my dad my grandpa my great shoulders of my dad my grandpa my great grandpa and of course amazing wives in grandpa and of course amazing wives in grandpa and of course amazing wives in in that group and that's part of my in that group and that's part of my in that group and that's part of my legacy I was never forced into it dad legacy I was never forced into it dad legacy I was never forced into it dad never you know it was my my my decision never you know it was my my my decision never you know it was my my my decision it was the Holy Spirit moving in me to it was the Holy Spirit moving in me to it was the Holy Spirit moving in me to to lead me to this but I really felt to lead me to this but I really felt to lead me to this but I really felt like this was a legacy thing for me I like this was a legacy thing for me I like this was a legacy thing for me I love talking about Legacy I love love talking about Legacy I love love talking about Legacy I love thinking about my great grandpa I never thinking about my great grandpa I never thinking about my great grandpa I never met him he's but he made a decision a met him he's but he made a decision a met him he's but he made a decision a hundred years before I uh became a hundred years before I uh became a hundred years before I uh became a pastor that I'm still feeling the Ripple pastor that I'm still feeling the Ripple pastor that I'm still feeling the Ripple effects of today and so I love teaching effects of today and so I love teaching effects of today and so I love teaching people like you can make a decision people like you can make a decision people like you can make a decision today that a hundred years from now today that a hundred years from now today that a hundred years from now would still cause Ripple effects really would still cause Ripple effects really would still cause Ripple effects really cool and so for me the church planting cool and so for me the church planting cool and so for me the church planting side as well growing up in with a great side as well growing up in with a great side as well growing up in with a great family and a great history I really felt

family and a great history I really felt family and a great history I really felt like because I went through University like because I went through University like because I went through University and as I went through and as I went through and as I went through Seminary I'm not saying it wasn't Seminary I'm not saying it wasn't Seminary I'm not saying it wasn't without challenges but I I don't know without challenges but I I don't know without challenges but I I don't know that my faith was tested very much if that my faith was tested very much if that my faith was tested very much if I'm real with you and so I really wanted I'm real with you and so I really wanted I'm real with you and so I really wanted to go into church planting into to Mount to go into church planting into to Mount to go into church planting into to Mount Dora of Florida where I knew one person Dora of Florida where I knew one person Dora of Florida where I knew one person that lived like 45 minutes away and I that lived like 45 minutes away and I that lived like 45 minutes away and I was walking into a city a much smaller was walking into a city a much smaller was walking into a city a much smaller city than the Apostle Paul would walk city than the Apostle Paul would walk city than the Apostle Paul would walk into in the book of Acts but I was into in the book of Acts but I was into in the book of Acts but I was walking into a city and like God I don't walking into a city and like God I don't walking into a city and like God I don't know what I'm doing and it feels really know what I'm doing and it feels really know what I'm doing and it feels really good to every day have my faith on the good to every day have my faith on the good to every day have my faith on the line and to kind of be tested from what line and to kind of be tested from what line and to kind of be tested from what I would say was for the first time in my I would say was for the first time in my I would say was for the first time in my life like over and over and over again I life like over and over and over again I life like over and over and over again I was ready to be challenged and so those was ready to be challenged and so those was ready to be challenged and so those are all reasons why the church plant are all reasons why the church plant are all reasons why the church plant side was fun for me yeah when when side was fun for me yeah when when side was fun for me yeah when when you're part of an established tradition you're part of an established tradition you're part of an established tradition like a Mainline denomination and I mean like a Mainline denomination and I mean like a Mainline denomination and I mean that's my background too what was the that's my background too what was the that's my background too what was the support/ support/ support/ receptivity to church planting I mean if receptivity to church planting I mean if receptivity to church planting I mean if you're in a non-denominational context you're in a non-denominational context you're in a non-denominational context it's almost like yeah this is in the it's almost like yeah this is in the it's almost like yeah this is in the water supply but I'm wondering what your water supply but I'm wondering what your water supply but I'm wondering what your experience was in the context of a experience was in the context of a experience was in the context of a Mainline denom ation yeah Mainline Mainline denom ation yeah Mainline Mainline denom ation yeah Mainline denominations are interesting they they denominations are interesting they they denominations are interesting they they have their blessings and uh maybe we'll have their blessings and uh maybe we'll have their blessings and uh maybe we'll call them curses too you know I don't call them curses too you know I don't call them curses too you know I don't know that anybody was against church know that anybody was against church know that anybody was against church planting that that would be too too planting that that would be too too planting that that would be too too harsh but I think overall as a harsh but I think overall as a harsh but I think overall as a denomination for us it's it's kind of denomination for us it's it's kind of denomination for us it's it's kind of challenging when we're about church challenging when we're about church challenging when we're about church planting and we're about Mission work

planting and we're about Mission work planting and we're about Mission work but when our system has gotten to be so but when our system has gotten to be so but when our system has gotten to be so rigid enough that there's there's not rigid enough that there's there's not rigid enough that there's there's not great avenues for church Planters and so great avenues for church Planters and so great avenues for church Planters and so I think I I came out of it and I went I think I I came out of it and I went I think I I came out of it and I went the traditional route because I I felt the traditional route because I I felt the traditional route because I I felt that that was good for me and I went to that that was good for me and I went to that that was good for me and I went to Seminary and we spent you know five plus Seminary and we spent you know five plus Seminary and we spent you know five plus years in St Louis to go to Seminary but years in St Louis to go to Seminary but years in St Louis to go to Seminary but I struggle a little bit right now with I struggle a little bit right now with I struggle a little bit right now with where our denomination is with I feel where our denomination is with I feel where our denomination is with I feel like what why I am a Lutheran is because like what why I am a Lutheran is because like what why I am a Lutheran is because I love the doctrine I think it's I love I love the doctrine I think it's I love I love the doctrine I think it's I love the purity of Doctrine is it perfect no the purity of Doctrine is it perfect no the purity of Doctrine is it perfect no none of us will have perfect Doctrine I none of us will have perfect Doctrine I none of us will have perfect Doctrine I think being a part of a Mainline think being a part of a Mainline think being a part of a Mainline provides checks and balances are all provides checks and balances are all provides checks and balances are all really good but I think a fault right really good but I think a fault right really good but I think a fault right now that I'm experiencing is when purity now that I'm experiencing is when purity now that I'm experiencing is when purity of Doctrine becomes the primary Pursuit of Doctrine becomes the primary Pursuit of Doctrine becomes the primary Pursuit even over Mission like we're struggling even over Mission like we're struggling even over Mission like we're struggling and we're not training up leaders in the and we're not training up leaders in the and we're not training up leaders in the way that we ought to because we've way that we ought to because we've way that we ought to because we've purified our Doctrine so much that we've purified our Doctrine so much that we've purified our Doctrine so much that we've made one system to train pastors and made one system to train pastors and made one system to train pastors and that's what we're going through in our that's what we're going through in our that's what we're going through in our denomination it's like you come to denomination it's like you come to denomination it's like you come to Seminary and you spend a lot of money Seminary and you spend a lot of money Seminary and you spend a lot of money Carrie we're one of the only Carrie we're one of the only Carrie we're one of the only denominations that don't have an online denominations that don't have an online denominations that don't have an online masters of divinity masters of divinity masters of divinity and so it's it's just really tough and and so it's it's just really tough and and so it's it's just really tough and challenging to say we're a church that's challenging to say we're a church that's challenging to say we're a church that's about Mission when when we're not about Mission when when we're not about Mission when when we're not providing the platform and the training providing the platform and the training providing the platform and the training and the education that can justify and the education that can justify and the education that can justify churches being planted and our our churches being planted and our our churches being planted and our our denomination like many Mainland denomination like many Mainland denomination like many Mainland denomination is suffering for it and denomination is suffering for it and denomination is suffering for it and until we like figure this out like it's until we like figure this out like it's until we like figure this out like it's cool to say you're for church planting

cool to say you're for church planting cool to say you're for church planting but I really believe that the decisions but I really believe that the decisions but I really believe that the decisions you you you make are more telling of what you make are more telling of what you make are more telling of what you actually say and so it's tough It's actually say and so it's tough It's actually say and so it's tough It's challenging I I think we're writing that challenging I I think we're writing that challenging I I think we're writing that wave right now where you know hopefully wave right now where you know hopefully wave right now where you know hopefully things can shift and we can find new things can shift and we can find new things can shift and we can find new avenues because uh church planting is avenues because uh church planting is avenues because uh church planting is and it always has been since the book of and it always has been since the book of and it always has been since the book of Acts the greatest form of evangelism and Acts the greatest form of evangelism and Acts the greatest form of evangelism and for reaching new people for a collective for reaching new people for a collective for reaching new people for a collective group of people and so we've got to stay group of people and so we've got to stay group of people and so we've got to stay in that game and figure out how we can in that game and figure out how we can in that game and figure out how we can do more and more of that why do you stay do more and more of that why do you stay do more and more of that why do you stay in a denomination I mean you you left in a denomination I mean you you left in a denomination I mean you you left your church plant we can go back to that your church plant we can go back to that your church plant we can go back to that story in a moment and then you went to a story in a moment and then you went to a story in a moment and then you went to a denominational church now you had family denominational church now you had family denominational church now you had family ties with this one but why stay why not ties with this one but why stay why not ties with this one but why stay why not just you know Embark out on your own just you know Embark out on your own just you know Embark out on your own someone I know took that path like someone I know took that path like someone I know took that path like yourself right Perhaps Perhaps that was yourself right Perhaps Perhaps that was yourself right Perhaps Perhaps that was yeah I don't know Carrie it's it's yeah I don't know Carrie it's it's yeah I don't know Carrie it's it's challenging man I'm I'm wrestling with challenging man I'm I'm wrestling with challenging man I'm I'm wrestling with that truly and I I think Ys day again I that truly and I I think Ys day again I that truly and I I think Ys day again I do love I do love the doctrine I do love do love I do love the doctrine I do love do love I do love the doctrine I do love you know lutherans are the we are the you know lutherans are the we are the you know lutherans are the we are the ones that Herald the just ification by ones that Herald the just ification by ones that Herald the just ification by grace through faith and you know other grace through faith and you know other grace through faith and you know other denominations also uh cling to that as denominations also uh cling to that as denominations also uh cling to that as well but I really believe that our well but I really believe that our well but I really believe that our answers that we provide for some of that answers that we provide for some of that answers that we provide for some of that are are are powerful I love some of the are are are powerful I love some of the are are are powerful I love some of the teachings I you know if you if we really teachings I you know if you if we really teachings I you know if you if we really like get deep into it like I I believe like get deep into it like I I believe like get deep into it like I I believe in infant baptism I believe that the in infant baptism I believe that the in infant baptism I believe that the sacrament of communion is more than sacrament of communion is more than sacrament of communion is more than symbolic and so there's there's like symbolic and so there's there's like symbolic and so there's there's like mostly a lot of theological reasons why

mostly a lot of theological reasons why mostly a lot of theological reasons why another reason why is I've got so many another reason why is I've got so many another reason why is I've got so many friends that are Ministry that that are friends that are Ministry that that are friends that are Ministry that that are like-minded that do think like me and like-minded that do think like me and like-minded that do think like me and and and there's a big group of us um and and and there's a big group of us um and and and there's a big group of us um and so like there's people I love and so like there's people I love and so like there's people I love and there's theology that I love and so that there's theology that I love and so that there's theology that I love and so that that would be challenging um but those that would be challenging um but those that would be challenging um but those are the reasons I stay yeah oh that's are the reasons I stay yeah oh that's are the reasons I stay yeah oh that's interesting just because it's I don't interesting just because it's I don't interesting just because it's I don't think it's ever come up on this podcast think it's ever come up on this podcast think it's ever come up on this podcast 700 almost episodes into this infant 700 almost episodes into this infant 700 almost episodes into this infant baptism um so let's let's let's be baptism um so let's let's let's be baptism um so let's let's let's be foolish enough to tackle a centuries old foolish enough to tackle a centuries old foolish enough to tackle a centuries old debate in 3 minutes okay no I would just debate in 3 minutes okay no I would just debate in 3 minutes okay no I would just love to know sincerely because that's love to know sincerely because that's love to know sincerely because that's something we went to believer baptism something we went to believer baptism something we went to believer baptism when I became non-denominational I'd when I became non-denominational I'd when I became non-denominational I'd love to know why you know you hold to love to know why you know you hold to love to know why you know you hold to that Doctrine in a post-christian that Doctrine in a post-christian that Doctrine in a post-christian culture just and this is not not a culture just and this is not not a culture just and this is not not a hostile question I'm just curious yeah hostile question I'm just curious yeah hostile question I'm just curious yeah you're good I always tell people that you're good I always tell people that you're good I always tell people that come from a little different perspective come from a little different perspective come from a little different perspective like your answer's good but mine's like your answer's good but mine's like your answer's good but mine's better you know you hopefully you'll better you know you hopefully you'll better you know you hopefully you'll come to my my way of thinking but no come to my my way of thinking but no come to my my way of thinking but no infant baptism why why do we do it uh infant baptism why why do we do it uh infant baptism why why do we do it uh there's so many scriptures and there's there's so many scriptures and there's there's so many scriptures and there's so many different things like we we do so many different things like we we do so many different things like we we do believe that God's call to make believe that God's call to make believe that God's call to make disciples of all Nations is an inclusive disciples of all Nations is an inclusive disciples of all Nations is an inclusive call to everybody uh we do believe that call to everybody uh we do believe that call to everybody uh we do believe that in Acts 2 38-41 after Peter preached in Acts 2 38-41 after Peter preached in Acts 2 38-41 after Peter preached this incredible message and people were this incredible message and people were this incredible message and people were cut to the heart what do we do repent cut to the heart what do we do repent cut to the heart what do we do repent and be baptized and this promises for and be baptized and this promises for and be baptized and this promises for you and for your children we do see in you and for your children we do see in you and for your children we do see in the book of Acts a whole households the book of Acts a whole households the book of Acts a whole households being baptized and whole households then being baptized and whole households then being baptized and whole households then is different than now it's not Mom and is different than now it's not Mom and is different than now it's not Mom and Dad or a couple people Under One Roof Dad or a couple people Under One Roof Dad or a couple people Under One Roof it's 30 40 50 people we also know it was it's 30 40 50 people we also know it was it's 30 40 50 people we also know it was the common practice in early church um

the common practice in early church um the common practice in early church um and the reason we know that is actually and the reason we know that is actually and the reason we know that is actually one of the only uh one of the only uh one of the only uh at least that I've met maybe or read or at least that I've met maybe or read or at least that I've met maybe or read or heard the one of the only detractors heard the one of the only detractors heard the one of the only detractors from this was trolan who um actually in from this was trolan who um actually in from this was trolan who um actually in his writing kind of Justified the fact his writing kind of Justified the fact his writing kind of Justified the fact that infant baptism is going on that infant baptism is going on that infant baptism is going on everywhere the enlightenment age is when everywhere the enlightenment age is when everywhere the enlightenment age is when everything changed uh and and this thing everything changed uh and and this thing everything changed uh and and this thing that was the norm all of a sudden became that was the norm all of a sudden became that was the norm all of a sudden became not the norm and I really believe it's not the norm and I really believe it's not the norm and I really believe it's because in the enlightenment period because in the enlightenment period because in the enlightenment period people want CR Crystal Clear black and people want CR Crystal Clear black and people want CR Crystal Clear black and white answers and what I love about the white answers and what I love about the white answers and what I love about the Lutheran faith is we we actually don't Lutheran faith is we we actually don't Lutheran faith is we we actually don't mind living in the gray and actually mind living in the gray and actually mind living in the gray and actually believe that's where our faith gets believe that's where our faith gets believe that's where our faith gets strengthened so we do believe that when strengthened so we do believe that when strengthened so we do believe that when someone is baptized and and it's someone is baptized and and it's someone is baptized and and it's connected to the water that God's connected to the water that God's connected to the water that God's promise of the Forgiveness of sins Is promise of the Forgiveness of sins Is promise of the Forgiveness of sins Is Real at that font for someone who's two Real at that font for someone who's two Real at that font for someone who's two weeks old or 90 years old now does that weeks old or 90 years old now does that weeks old or 90 years old now does that Faith need to be nurtured 100% um but we Faith need to be nurtured 100% um but we Faith need to be nurtured 100% um but we also like know that Jesus loved the also like know that Jesus loved the also like know that Jesus loved the little children and welcomed them and little children and welcomed them and little children and welcomed them and said you've got to have faith like a said you've got to have faith like a said you've got to have faith like a little child the Greek is more like an little child the Greek is more like an little child the Greek is more like an infant how is that possible how do infant how is that possible how do infant how is that possible how do infants have I don't know and at some infants have I don't know and at some infants have I don't know and at some point if someone asks me enough point if someone asks me enough point if someone asks me enough questions I'm going to get to the place questions I'm going to get to the place questions I'm going to get to the place as a good Lutheran and say I don't know as a good Lutheran and say I don't know as a good Lutheran and say I don't know I actually like that there's a few I actually like that there's a few I actually like that there's a few things that I don't know yeah I like things that I don't know yeah I like things that I don't know yeah I like that in communion it's similar that this that in communion it's similar that this that in communion it's similar that this The Bread and Wine the way we we uh The Bread and Wine the way we we uh The Bread and Wine the way we we uh phrase it is in with and under or the phrase it is in with and under or the phrase it is in with and under or the body and blood of Jesus I should say is body and blood of Jesus I should say is body and blood of Jesus I should say is in with and Under The Bread and Wine how in with and Under The Bread and Wine how in with and Under The Bread and Wine how I don't know but I love the fact that

I don't know but I love the fact that I don't know but I love the fact that not quite Roman Catholic not quite Roman Catholic not quite Roman Catholic transubstantiation but but hybrid transubstantiation but but hybrid transubstantiation but but hybrid between it's not turning into it and so between it's not turning into it and so between it's not turning into it and so like if you drop it it's like a big sin like if you drop it it's like a big sin like if you drop it it's like a big sin it's it's I don't get it but when Jesus it's it's I don't get it but when Jesus it's it's I don't get it but when Jesus said this is my body this is my blood said this is my body this is my blood said this is my body this is my blood that wasn't also his body and blood that that wasn't also his body and blood that that wasn't also his body and blood that was Bread and Wine And so there's was Bread and Wine And so there's was Bread and Wine And so there's something real and tangible and and the something real and tangible and and the something real and tangible and and the main point about both of those that I main point about both of those that I main point about both of those that I like from the Lutheran like from the Lutheran like from the Lutheran perspective is these sacraments then perspective is these sacraments then perspective is these sacraments then become more about what God does and what become more about what God does and what become more about what God does and what God gives to us than what we do for God God gives to us than what we do for God God gives to us than what we do for God if that makes sense and so I think it's if that makes sense and so I think it's if that makes sense and so I think it's awesome to have a believer's baptism and awesome to have a believer's baptism and awesome to have a believer's baptism and to say I believe in God and go into the to say I believe in God and go into the to say I believe in God and go into the waters and I'm celebrating this in front waters and I'm celebrating this in front waters and I'm celebrating this in front of my family my friends my church family of my family my friends my church family of my family my friends my church family I love that moment in the Lutheran I love that moment in the Lutheran I love that moment in the Lutheran Church I would say that's what our Church I would say that's what our Church I would say that's what our confirmation is just without water um confirmation is just without water um confirmation is just without water um because we don't need to be baptized because we don't need to be baptized because we don't need to be baptized again because we someone said that to me again because we someone said that to me again because we someone said that to me confirmation and baptism is just all confirmation and baptism is just all confirmation and baptism is just all about where you put the water uh and about where you put the water uh and about where you put the water uh and there's truth to that well all I know is there's truth to that well all I know is there's truth to that well all I know is is 400 years ago uh you would have is 400 years ago uh you would have is 400 years ago uh you would have burned me at the stake or I would have burned me at the stake or I would have burned me at the stake or I would have burned you at the stake and now all we burned you at the stake and now all we burned you at the stake and now all we do all we do we're friends and we do all we do we're friends and we do all we do we're friends and we probably started a war in the comments probably started a war in the comments probably started a war in the comments that's all I know that's all I know that's all I know um no that's fascinating thank you no I um no that's fascinating thank you no I um no that's fascinating thank you no I I appreciate that because I think often I appreciate that because I think often I appreciate that because I think often if you're on one side of an issue or if you're on one side of an issue or if you're on one side of an issue or another you can end up thinking well the another you can end up thinking well the another you can end up thinking well the other the other side is brainless and other the other side is brainless and other the other side is brainless and the reality is they're not for the most the reality is they're not for the most the reality is they're not for the most part and the last thing I tell people to part and the last thing I tell people to part and the last thing I tell people to remind them to kind of like hopefully remind them to kind of like hopefully remind them to kind of like hopefully cool the temperature a little bit

cool the temperature a little bit cool the temperature a little bit yeah is like there have literally been yeah is like there have literally been yeah is like there have literally been billions with a B with a B billions of billions with a B with a B billions of billions with a B with a B billions of people that have believed either one of people that have believed either one of people that have believed either one of these um so like nobody's foolish these um so like nobody's foolish these um so like nobody's foolish nobody's dumb it's just a different nobody's dumb it's just a different nobody's dumb it's just a different matter of interpretation of scripture matter of interpretation of scripture matter of interpretation of scripture and at the end of it like I do think and at the end of it like I do think and at the end of it like I do think it's important but at the end of it like it's important but at the end of it like it's important but at the end of it like we're good God God's going to take care we're good God God's going to take care we're good God God's going to take care of this and we're all going to get up to of this and we're all going to get up to of this and we're all going to get up to heaven and realize H we had some answers heaven and realize H we had some answers heaven and realize H we had some answers that we probably didn't know a lot more that we probably didn't know a lot more that we probably didn't know a lot more than than what we said we knew so so for than than what we said we knew so so for than than what we said we knew so so for the church Planters listening or those the church Planters listening or those the church Planters listening or those who are thinking of planting a church who are thinking of planting a church who are thinking of planting a church what were some keys to early momentum what were some keys to early momentum what were some keys to early momentum when you planted your church yeah I when you planted your church yeah I when you planted your church yeah I think for us I got to be a part of a think for us I got to be a part of a think for us I got to be a part of a network and and and so our our Network network and and and so our our Network network and and and so our our Network we we had a vision to plant seven we we had a vision to plant seven we we had a vision to plant seven churches uh we we moved there in 2010 so churches uh we we moved there in 2010 so churches uh we we moved there in 2010 so we had a vision seven by 2020 and I was we had a vision seven by 2020 and I was we had a vision seven by 2020 and I was number two out of that and so number two out of that and so number two out of that and so denominational Network or not uh it was denominational Network or not uh it was denominational Network or not uh it was in our denomination it was just a church in our denomination it was just a church in our denomination it was just a church in in Lake Mary Florida that uh wow said in in Lake Mary Florida that uh wow said in in Lake Mary Florida that uh wow said we're gonna we're going to expand the we're gonna we're going to expand the we're gonna we're going to expand the gospel by by planting churches and so gospel by by planting churches and so gospel by by planting churches and so that was a network we created so I I that was a network we created so I I that was a network we created so I I loved being uh part of that Network and loved being uh part of that Network and loved being uh part of that Network and I think there's there's Beauty just in I think there's there's Beauty just in I think there's there's Beauty just in probably hits a little more of the probably hits a little more of the probably hits a little more of the denomination stuff too I think there's denomination stuff too I think there's denomination stuff too I think there's just Beauty in working together and not just Beauty in working together and not just Beauty in working together and not being alone and and to know that you being alone and and to know that you being alone and and to know that you don't have to be alone and so I would don't have to be alone and so I would don't have to be alone and so I would say get into a network uh you know say get into a network uh you know say get into a network uh you know there's some really great ones arcs are there's some really great ones arcs are there's some really great ones arcs are really great Community Acts 29 and but really great Community Acts 29 and but really great Community Acts 29 and but there's also a lot of smaller ones too there's also a lot of smaller ones too there's also a lot of smaller ones too um and so being a part of a network work um and so being a part of a network work um and so being a part of a network work was really great to be able to bounce

was really great to be able to bounce was really great to be able to bounce ideas off um we had you know the the ideas off um we had you know the the ideas off um we had you know the the leader of it had um quite a bit a years leader of it had um quite a bit a years leader of it had um quite a bit a years decades in Ministry and so he was just decades in Ministry and so he was just decades in Ministry and so he was just so wise and had so much experience that so wise and had so much experience that so wise and had so much experience that as a young Church planter I needed that as a young Church planter I needed that as a young Church planter I needed that um experience and that wisdom and so I um experience and that wisdom and so I um experience and that wisdom and so I loved learning from him um the other loved learning from him um the other loved learning from him um the other thing that just specifically we did at thing that just specifically we did at thing that just specifically we did at our church and obviously you can hear my our church and obviously you can hear my our church and obviously you can hear my heart and and stuff that kind of came heart and and stuff that kind of came heart and and stuff that kind of came out of it is like we were just really out of it is like we were just really out of it is like we were just really intentional from the beginning uh like intentional from the beginning uh like intentional from the beginning uh like we're going to do what Jesus said we're we're going to do what Jesus said we're we're going to do what Jesus said we're not going to settle uh we're going to do not going to settle uh we're going to do not going to settle uh we're going to do things different and if we air on things different and if we air on things different and if we air on anything like we're going to do what anything like we're going to do what anything like we're going to do what Jesus said what I found when you take Jesus said what I found when you take Jesus said what I found when you take that approach with discipleship with that approach with discipleship with that approach with discipleship with church is it's really hard to argue with church is it's really hard to argue with church is it's really hard to argue with the premise of we're going to put the the premise of we're going to put the the premise of we're going to put the words of Jesus into practice like if words of Jesus into practice like if words of Jesus into practice like if you're a Christian it's hard to argue you're a Christian it's hard to argue you're a Christian it's hard to argue that even non-christians don't mind if that even non-christians don't mind if that even non-christians don't mind if you do that because guess what usually you do that because guess what usually you do that because guess what usually their world's better when you put the their world's better when you put the their world's better when you put the words of Jesus into practice too and so words of Jesus into practice too and so words of Jesus into practice too and so we were just really diligent those are a we were just really diligent those are a we were just really diligent those are a couple things that I think early on were couple things that I think early on were couple things that I think early on were were key growth gr uh for us is like were key growth gr uh for us is like were key growth gr uh for us is like working working with others and then working working with others and then working working with others and then just doubling down on our church is just doubling down on our church is just doubling down on our church is meant to produce disciples and so like meant to produce disciples and so like meant to produce disciples and so like let's get back and let's do what Jesus let's get back and let's do what Jesus let's get back and let's do what Jesus called us to do what were some setbacks called us to do what were some setbacks called us to do what were some setbacks challenges you faced along the way as a challenges you faced along the way as a challenges you faced along the way as a church planter yeah I think if anything church planter yeah I think if anything church planter yeah I think if anything I mentioned earlier like it was really I mentioned earlier like it was really I mentioned earlier like it was really exciting because I was able to put my exciting because I was able to put my exciting because I was able to put my feel like I was able to put my faith on feel like I was able to put my faith on feel like I was able to put my faith on the line you know every day but even the line you know every day but even the line you know every day but even still that struggle of like the being still that struggle of like the being still that struggle of like the being side of it and church Planters are such side of it and church Planters are such side of it and church Planters are such doers and so I think for me one of the doers and so I think for me one of the doers and so I think for me one of the struggles I had was to just do so much

struggles I had was to just do so much struggles I had was to just do so much that I wasn't spending that time with that I wasn't spending that time with that I wasn't spending that time with God and I think where that where it God and I think where that where it God and I think where that where it played out is I think I just rather than played out is I think I just rather than played out is I think I just rather than depended on God I think I I was depended on God I think I I was depended on God I think I I was desperate um for and probably made some desperate um for and probably made some desperate um for and probably made some like hiring decisions early on if you like hiring decisions early on if you like hiring decisions early on if you will that like ah if iida prayed about will that like ah if iida prayed about will that like ah if iida prayed about that and spent some time with the Lord that and spent some time with the Lord that and spent some time with the Lord you know there was but but I have nobody you know there was but but I have nobody you know there was but but I have nobody and this guy can like he he he knows how and this guy can like he he he knows how and this guy can like he he he knows how to play a guitar and so worth it let's to play a guitar and so worth it let's to play a guitar and so worth it let's go you you know so just probably more I go you you know so just probably more I go you you know so just probably more I would have challenged myself to be more would have challenged myself to be more would have challenged myself to be more dependent on God and less desperate and dependent on God and less desperate and dependent on God and less desperate and then I would say like I there's such an then I would say like I there's such an then I would say like I there's such an advantage of working with a network but advantage of working with a network but advantage of working with a network but I also think like one of the things we I also think like one of the things we I also think like one of the things we didn't do well that I would that I have didn't do well that I would that I have didn't do well that I would that I have coached and that I continue to coach coached and that I continue to coach coached and that I continue to coach Church Planters on is really Church Planters on is really Church Planters on is really understanding if you're a part of a understanding if you're a part of a understanding if you're a part of a network like thinking through like what network like thinking through like what network like thinking through like what are the outcomes um so that so you know are the outcomes um so that so you know are the outcomes um so that so you know what in the end is is going to work how what in the end is is going to work how what in the end is is going to work how it's going to work because if you don't it's going to work because if you don't it's going to work because if you don't have Clarity up front it's going to have Clarity up front it's going to have Clarity up front it's going to create a lot of friction on the back end create a lot of friction on the back end create a lot of friction on the back end and it did for for us like we we and it did for for us like we we and it did for for us like we we actually outgrew the main campus uh 3 actually outgrew the main campus uh 3 actually outgrew the main campus uh 3 four years in and and and and and that four years in and and and and and that four years in and and and and and that nobody had ever thought of that that nobody had ever thought of that that nobody had ever thought of that that wasn't a concept and and it was always wasn't a concept and and it was always wasn't a concept and and it was always we're g to be I'm familiar with that we're g to be I'm familiar with that we're g to be I'm familiar with that yeah we're gonna be One Vision One yeah we're gonna be One Vision One yeah we're gonna be One Vision One mission one budget one board and like mission one budget one board and like mission one budget one board and like that sounds really good and it is really that sounds really good and it is really that sounds really good and it is really good and it is a call for some but but good and it is a call for some but but good and it is a call for some but but we also hired like type A personalities we also hired like type A personalities we also hired like type A personalities and told them lead your churches in in and told them lead your churches in in and told them lead your churches in in underneath this really broad Mission underneath this really broad Mission underneath this really broad Mission lead your churches this way and match lead your churches this way and match lead your churches this way and match the needs of your community and when you the needs of your community and when you the needs of your community and when you do that and you is that challenge to do that and you is that challenge to do that and you is that challenge to them you end up creating churches that them you end up creating churches that them you end up creating churches that are quite different from one another and

are quite different from one another and are quite different from one another and so so you're not comparing apples and so so you're not comparing apples and so so you're not comparing apples and oranges all the time when you're talking oranges all the time when you're talking oranges all the time when you're talking about things as a network and it just about things as a network and it just about things as a network and it just created a lot of friction for us we we created a lot of friction for us we we created a lot of friction for us we we ended up um moving out of that Network ended up um moving out of that Network ended up um moving out of that Network six years in and chartering on our own six years in and chartering on our own six years in and chartering on our own and and to me it's like that's that's and and to me it's like that's that's and and to me it's like that's that's what a good Network always ought to do what a good Network always ought to do what a good Network always ought to do is like you get a church that can be is like you get a church that can be is like you get a church that can be self-sustaining and now can actually self-sustaining and now can actually self-sustaining and now can actually plant their own church like that ought plant their own church like that ought plant their own church like that ought to be the win but that wasn't stated up to be the win but that wasn't stated up to be the win but that wasn't stated up front and it it left a lot of friction front and it it left a lot of friction front and it it left a lot of friction and so to me if you're a part of a and so to me if you're a part of a and so to me if you're a part of a network like in church planting network like in church planting network like in church planting especially I mentioned it earlier church especially I mentioned it earlier church especially I mentioned it earlier church planting is it always has been the planting is it always has been the planting is it always has been the number one way for churches to reach new number one way for churches to reach new number one way for churches to reach new people and and so but there's different people and and so but there's different people and and so but there's different ways to do it and so you know Clarity on ways to do it and so you know Clarity on ways to do it and so you know Clarity on the way you want to do it do you want to the way you want to do it do you want to the way you want to do it do you want to do you want to be a part of this network do you want to be a part of this network do you want to be a part of this network and you'll we'll plant a church with you and you'll we'll plant a church with you and you'll we'll plant a church with you which means like we're gonna we're going which means like we're gonna we're going which means like we're gonna we're going to pray for you we're going to support to pray for you we're going to support to pray for you we're going to support you depending on where your location is you depending on where your location is you depending on where your location is we may even send people your way but in we may even send people your way but in we may even send people your way but in the end like you're going to be in the end like you're going to be in the end like you're going to be in charge of of your own Constitution your charge of of your own Constitution your charge of of your own Constitution your Articles of Incorporation crafting a Articles of Incorporation crafting a Articles of Incorporation crafting a budget and it's your church like you budget and it's your church like you budget and it's your church like you won't always have the financial support won't always have the financial support won't always have the financial support from us or do you want to be a campus of from us or do you want to be a campus of from us or do you want to be a campus of our church that that you get to share our church that that you get to share our church that that you get to share One Vision one one mission one budget One Vision one one mission one budget One Vision one one mission one budget one board and and that'll be the way it one board and and that'll be the way it one board and and that'll be the way it always is and so if two three years from always is and so if two three years from always is and so if two three years from now you're like ah I really want to have now you're like ah I really want to have now you're like ah I really want to have a church on my own that's good for you a church on my own that's good for you a church on my own that's good for you like but that's our church because like but that's our church because like but that's our church because that's the clarity we had like I think that's the clarity we had like I think that's the clarity we had like I think getting that Crystal Clear is really getting that Crystal Clear is really getting that Crystal Clear is really important up front and and to recognize important up front and and to recognize important up front and and to recognize that both are extreme both are methods that both are extreme both are methods that both are extreme both are methods of church planting and extremely

of church planting and extremely of church planting and extremely effective it's just more what matches effective it's just more what matches effective it's just more what matches your your style your DNA your leadership your your style your DNA your leadership your your style your DNA your leadership your gifts and um that Clarity is really your gifts and um that Clarity is really your gifts and um that Clarity is really important it's sort of counterintuitive important it's sort of counterintuitive important it's sort of counterintuitive but I learned that in my time in law you but I learned that in my time in law you but I learned that in my time in law you have to think about how it ends before have to think about how it ends before have to think about how it ends before you begin it right like is this all you begin it right like is this all you begin it right like is this all independent churches down the road but independent churches down the road but independent churches down the road but we get so caught up in beginning it gets we get so caught up in beginning it gets we get so caught up in beginning it gets difficult so walk us through when you difficult so walk us through when you difficult so walk us through when you started obviously you know it's you and started obviously you know it's you and started obviously you know it's you and your wife and your kids but you were your wife and your kids but you were your wife and your kids but you were there for how long Zach yeah we were there for how long Zach yeah we were there for how long Zach yeah we were there 11 years and so we started as a there 11 years and so we started as a there 11 years and so we started as a church planter and then uh 10 years in church planter and then uh 10 years in church planter and then uh 10 years in we shifted from lead Pastor to more of a we shifted from lead Pastor to more of a we shifted from lead Pastor to more of a supportive uh supportive role uh but 11 supportive uh supportive role uh but 11 supportive uh supportive role uh but 11 years we were there yeah 11 years and years we were there yeah 11 years and years we were there yeah 11 years and then um by the time you had transitioned then um by the time you had transitioned then um by the time you had transitioned out of that church what size was it uh out of that church what size was it uh out of that church what size was it uh yeah we so we grew it up to about 8900 yeah we so we grew it up to about 8900 yeah we so we grew it up to about 8900 on a weekend about seven years in and on a weekend about seven years in and on a weekend about seven years in and then uh we had uh that was 2018 early then uh we had uh that was 2018 early then uh we had uh that was 2018 early part of 2019 and then we had like two part of 2019 and then we had like two part of 2019 and then we had like two really good pruning Seasons first one really good pruning Seasons first one really good pruning Seasons first one for us was this was a year before covid for us was this was a year before covid for us was this was a year before covid in 2019 for us we actually lost the in 2019 for us we actually lost the in 2019 for us we actually lost the lease on our space and so we had to move lease on our space and so we had to move lease on our space and so we had to move about 800 people uh to in a city that's about 800 people uh to in a city that's about 800 people uh to in a city that's pretty small to a high school and so we pretty small to a high school and so we pretty small to a high school and so we had to do portable Church um it was the had to do portable Church um it was the had to do portable Church um it was the only option left for us and it was only option left for us and it was only option left for us and it was really hard to take that year uh you really hard to take that year uh you really hard to take that year uh you know I've had a lot of conversation with know I've had a lot of conversation with know I've had a lot of conversation with god and I feel okay about how things are god and I feel okay about how things are god and I feel okay about how things are now but um so we lost about 25% they now but um so we lost about 25% they now but um so we lost about 25% they never even made them move over to a mile never even made them move over to a mile never even made them move over to a mile and a half just left um just left and so

and a half just left um just left and so and a half just left um just left and so that was brutal and then we had covid so that was brutal and then we had covid so that was brutal and then we had covid so uh the you know a few months after that uh the you know a few months after that uh the you know a few months after that and so that was a some serious pruning and so that was a some serious pruning and so that was a some serious pruning as well I will say what I'm really proud as well I will say what I'm really proud as well I will say what I'm really proud of uh the leaders there like they've of uh the leaders there like they've of uh the leaders there like they've grown it back um since uh since I left grown it back um since uh since I left grown it back um since uh since I left there even three years ago they're back there even three years ago they're back there even three years ago they're back at those heightened numbers of 800 900 at those heightened numbers of 800 900 at those heightened numbers of 800 900 on a weekend a GNA see God do even more on a weekend a GNA see God do even more on a weekend a GNA see God do even more things so things so things so what happened to your time management as what happened to your time management as what happened to your time management as the church grew you know relatively the church grew you know relatively the church grew you know relatively rapidly over a decade yeah that is hard rapidly over a decade yeah that is hard rapidly over a decade yeah that is hard it it's hard that's why so being a it it's hard that's why so being a it it's hard that's why so being a church planter and then kind of going church planter and then kind of going church planter and then kind of going through those modes early on in my through those modes early on in my through those modes early on in my career of now I've got a church plant to career of now I've got a church plant to career of now I've got a church plant to a small Church to a medium Church to a a small Church to a medium Church to a a small Church to a medium Church to a large Church to a church in two large Church to a church in two large Church to a church in two locations like how each one of those locations like how each one of those locations like how each one of those like you have to wear a different hat as like you have to wear a different hat as like you have to wear a different hat as a leader and as a pastor and I did not a leader and as a pastor and I did not a leader and as a pastor and I did not always do that well on the side of it as always do that well on the side of it as always do that well on the side of it as well Carri I I mentioned that golf head well Carri I I mentioned that golf head well Carri I I mentioned that golf head cover business I had that going till cover business I had that going till cover business I had that going till 2017 and then about a year later is when 2017 and then about a year later is when 2017 and then about a year later is when red letter living uh started and so I've red letter living uh started and so I've red letter living uh started and so I've kind of always been in doing a lot of kind of always been in doing a lot of kind of always been in doing a lot of those things and so for us it's not those things and so for us it's not those things and so for us it's not always been easy I would say that's been always been easy I would say that's been always been easy I would say that's been one of the challenges of my my life uh one of the challenges of my my life uh one of the challenges of my my life uh is balancing that with uh a wife of now is balancing that with uh a wife of now is balancing that with uh a wife of now 20 years and we've got two boys that are 20 years and we've got two boys that are 20 years and we've got two boys that are 17 and 13 right now and so for us it's 17 and 13 right now and so for us it's 17 and 13 right now and so for us it's it's taken uh some some counseling I it's taken uh some some counseling I it's taken uh some some counseling I remember in 2017 by the way I ran your remember in 2017 by the way I ran your remember in 2017 by the way I ran your stuff 2015 2016 2017 and it was right stuff 2015 2016 2017 and it was right stuff 2015 2016 2017 and it was right around the time of counseling that I was around the time of counseling that I was around the time of counseling that I was also going through at that time it was also going through at that time it was also going through at that time it was called the high impact leader course I

called the high impact leader course I called the high impact leader course I think you called at your best that was think you called at your best that was think you called at your best that was the original uh iteration of at your the original uh iteration of at your the original uh iteration of at your best was a high impact leader for sure best was a high impact leader for sure best was a high impact leader for sure and so like legitimately that was some and so like legitimately that was some and so like legitimately that was some of the first time I'd learned those of the first time I'd learned those of the first time I'd learned those things and I I want you to hear from my things and I I want you to hear from my things and I I want you to hear from my heart like that changed me in a really heart like that changed me in a really heart like that changed me in a really positive way and so I had that going positive way and so I had that going positive way and so I had that going kind of in the background and at the kind of in the background and at the kind of in the background and at the same time like we finally decided for same time like we finally decided for same time like we finally decided for the first time in our life um Alison and the first time in our life um Alison and the first time in our life um Alison and I we need to go we need to see a I we need to go we need to see a I we need to go we need to see a counselor and Carrie we knew what he was counselor and Carrie we knew what he was counselor and Carrie we knew what he was going to say but we just needed him to going to say but we just needed him to going to say but we just needed him to say it and this is what he said he said say it and this is what he said he said say it and this is what he said he said each of you are doing too much you each each of you are doing too much you each each of you are doing too much you each need to come back and tell me three need to come back and tell me three need to come back and tell me three things that you're gonna say no to and I things that you're gonna say no to and I things that you're gonna say no to and I said if I say no to you right now does said if I say no to you right now does said if I say no to you right now does that count as one of my three and he that count as one of my three and he that count as one of my three and he said no that said no that said no that doesn't so for me what it meant in 2017 doesn't so for me what it meant in 2017 doesn't so for me what it meant in 2017 is it meant for me saying saying no to is it meant for me saying saying no to is it meant for me saying saying no to my head cover business and letting that my head cover business and letting that my head cover business and letting that go for Allison it meant her saying no to go for Allison it meant her saying no to go for Allison it meant her saying no to being the kids minister at the cross and being the kids minister at the cross and being the kids minister at the cross and that was really hard because she was that was really hard because she was that was really hard because she was super good at it and it took us a long super good at it and it took us a long super good at it and it took us a long time to to figure out what that's going time to to figure out what that's going time to to figure out what that's going to look like and so those were a couple to look like and so those were a couple to look like and so those were a couple of the things and at the same time going of the things and at the same time going of the things and at the same time going through your course and I I I started through your course and I I I started through your course and I I I started learning how to calendar uh blocking my learning how to calendar uh blocking my learning how to calendar uh blocking my calendar I started reorganizing the org calendar I started reorganizing the org calendar I started reorganizing the org chart I had everybody with 15 staff and chart I had everybody with 15 staff and chart I had everybody with 15 staff and I had everybody reporting to me those I had everybody reporting to me those I had everybody reporting to me those things changed in that year I also it things changed in that year I also it things changed in that year I also it may have been through your course but it may have been through your course but it may have been through your course but it also may have been through your podcast also may have been through your podcast also may have been through your podcast listening to Andy Stanley he taught a listening to Andy Stanley he taught a listening to Andy Stanley he taught a three-word question that I found to be three-word question that I found to be three-word question that I found to be super helpful when I'm trying to manage super helpful when I'm trying to manage super helpful when I'm trying to manage my time and it's the question is it wise

my time and it's the question is it wise my time and it's the question is it wise and I think nobody's gonna eliminate all and I think nobody's gonna eliminate all and I think nobody's gonna eliminate all stress I don't even think that's a stress I don't even think that's a stress I don't even think that's a Biblical Pursuit um that God offers to Biblical Pursuit um that God offers to Biblical Pursuit um that God offers to us we're going to have trouble we're us we're going to have trouble we're us we're going to have trouble we're going to have stress in this world but I going to have stress in this world but I going to have stress in this world but I think it can cut half of your think it can cut half of your think it can cut half of your unnecessary stress is just that filter unnecessary stress is just that filter unnecessary stress is just that filter of Is it wise and so those were all of Is it wise and so those were all of Is it wise and so those were all things that like I was kind of learning things that like I was kind of learning things that like I was kind of learning at the same time I would say 2017 I did at the same time I would say 2017 I did at the same time I would say 2017 I did a three-month sabatical my church gave a three-month sabatical my church gave a three-month sabatical my church gave me a three month sabatical in 2018 and me a three month sabatical in 2018 and me a three month sabatical in 2018 and so I started putting a lot more of those so I started putting a lot more of those so I started putting a lot more of those into practice but other than that yeah into practice but other than that yeah into practice but other than that yeah it was it was I'm I'm telling you it was it was it was I'm I'm telling you it was it was it was I'm I'm telling you it was a challenge and I didn't the the people a challenge and I didn't the the people a challenge and I didn't the the people that ended up paying for it are the ones that ended up paying for it are the ones that ended up paying for it are the ones that I loved the most which was my wife that I loved the most which was my wife that I loved the most which was my wife and my kids um or it was God who should and my kids um or it was God who should and my kids um or it was God who should be first in all of it and so my my my be first in all of it and so my my my be first in all of it and so my my my being my relationship with God was being my relationship with God was being my relationship with God was struggling when I'm doing all these struggling when I'm doing all these struggling when I'm doing all these things and then the ones that I love the things and then the ones that I love the things and then the ones that I love the most are sort of getting my leftovers most are sort of getting my leftovers most are sort of getting my leftovers and that's when for me I recognize like and that's when for me I recognize like and that's when for me I recognize like I really need to redo this or uh this I really need to redo this or uh this I really need to redo this or uh this ain't going to end well for me and so ain't going to end well for me and so ain't going to end well for me and so again part of what I say to you and I I again part of what I say to you and I I again part of what I say to you and I I know I've said this before to you I know I've said this before to you I know I've said this before to you I really think like you do a lot of this really think like you do a lot of this really think like you do a lot of this what you do to help people prevent what you do to help people prevent what you do to help people prevent burnout and I want to tell you like I've burnout and I want to tell you like I've burnout and I want to tell you like I've never burnt out and I think like you never burnt out and I think like you never burnt out and I think like you could be a reason proactively why I could be a reason proactively why I could be a reason proactively why I never did because I learned your stuff never did because I learned your stuff never did because I learned your stuff and that's what I want to challenge and that's what I want to challenge and that's what I want to challenge young leaders right now is you don't young leaders right now is you don't young leaders right now is you don't have to burn out uh you can already be have to burn out uh you can already be have to burn out uh you can already be putting things into place right now putting things into place right now putting things into place right now before you get there you can listen to before you get there you can listen to before you get there you can listen to the wisdom and experience from people the wisdom and experience from people the wisdom and experience from people that have gone before you and done good that have gone before you and done good that have gone before you and done good or bad things and and hear from them and

or bad things and and hear from them and or bad things and and hear from them and actually change what you do so that actually change what you do so that actually change what you do so that you're not another number and and so for you're not another number and and so for you're not another number and and so for me Carrie this meant going through all me Carrie this meant going through all me Carrie this meant going through all of this journey and then all this red of this journey and then all this red of this journey and then all this red letter living stuff starts in 2018 kind letter living stuff starts in 2018 kind letter living stuff starts in 2018 kind of like I shouldn't say totally of like I shouldn't say totally of like I shouldn't say totally unexpectedly but like where God took it unexpectedly but like where God took it unexpectedly but like where God took it was like ridiculous like and now I'm was like ridiculous like and now I'm was like ridiculous like and now I'm stuck again in 2019 with like I'm stuck again in 2019 with like I'm stuck again in 2019 with like I'm running a church and now I'm running a running a church and now I'm running a running a church and now I'm running a business and I tried to say no to these business and I tried to say no to these business and I tried to say no to these things and yet it keeps finding me and things and yet it keeps finding me and things and yet it keeps finding me and and we had a breakfast in and we had a breakfast in and we had a breakfast in Orlando you me and and my wife and I Orlando you me and and my wife and I Orlando you me and and my wife and I said Carrie when did you know that it said Carrie when did you know that it said Carrie when did you know that it was right for you to lead leave your was right for you to lead leave your was right for you to lead leave your church uh in more not not like leave it church uh in more not not like leave it church uh in more not not like leave it but to leave the lead Pastor Ro to get but to leave the lead Pastor Ro to get but to leave the lead Pastor Ro to get out of the top leadership seat yeah do out of the top leadership seat yeah do out of the top leadership seat yeah do you remember what you said to me I don't you remember what you said to me I don't you remember what you said to me I don't so you're going to have to remind me I I so you're going to have to remind me I I so you're going to have to remind me I I imagine I know there were like five imagine I know there were like five imagine I know there were like five reasons but yeah it's probably one of reasons but yeah it's probably one of reasons but yeah it's probably one of your big lines but you said it to me your big lines but you said it to me your big lines but you said it to me personally I need to hear it it says you personally I need to hear it it says you personally I need to hear it it says you said to me that Zach when I felt like I said to me that Zach when I felt like I said to me that Zach when I felt like I was putting 10 times the energy at was putting 10 times the energy at was putting 10 times the energy at church and getting One X out of it and church and getting One X out of it and church and getting One X out of it and then on my podcast and my blog when I then on my podcast and my blog when I then on my podcast and my blog when I was putting one time the energy there was putting one time the energy there was putting one time the energy there and getting 10x out of it I had to and getting 10x out of it I had to and getting 10x out of it I had to really look at things and for me that really look at things and for me that really look at things and for me that was like I needed to hear that because was like I needed to hear that because was like I needed to hear that because that's exactly how I felt it wasn't like that's exactly how I felt it wasn't like that's exactly how I felt it wasn't like I I didn't like putting the 10x in at I I didn't like putting the 10x in at I I didn't like putting the 10x in at the church I love I love the church but the church I love I love the church but the church I love I love the church but it was like I'm putting onx in over here it was like I'm putting onx in over here it was like I'm putting onx in over here on the red letter side of things and it on the red letter side of things and it on the red letter side of things and it just feels like God you're there and and just feels like God you're there and and just feels like God you're there and and so we were left at the end of 19 and we so we were left at the end of 19 and we so we were left at the end of 19 and we had that breakfast and it wasn't long had that breakfast and it wasn't long had that breakfast and it wasn't long after that that at the age of what was I after that that at the age of what was I after that that at the age of what was I 36 and again this is where I say

36 and again this is where I say 36 and again this is where I say probably prevented from burnout I made probably prevented from burnout I made probably prevented from burnout I made the choice at the age of 36 to to stop the choice at the age of 36 to to stop the choice at the age of 36 to to stop being a lead pastor and to be a I still being a lead pastor and to be a I still being a lead pastor and to be a I still wanted to be a pastor though but to be a wanted to be a pastor though but to be a wanted to be a pastor though but to be a supportive Pastor in a teaching Pastor supportive Pastor in a teaching Pastor supportive Pastor in a teaching Pastor role where I don't lead and like that's role where I don't lead and like that's role where I don't lead and like that's just not what most most people do but it just not what most most people do but it just not what most most people do but it felt like God that's what you want for felt like God that's what you want for felt like God that's what you want for me and at the end of the day like I want me and at the end of the day like I want me and at the end of the day like I want to I want to Steward what you've given to I want to Steward what you've given to I want to Steward what you've given to me and I want to spend these years to me and I want to spend these years to me and I want to spend these years loving my wife and my kids super well loving my wife and my kids super well loving my wife and my kids super well and and so that was a huge decision for and and so that was a huge decision for and and so that was a huge decision for me that could be a great decision that me that could be a great decision that me that could be a great decision that has prevented me from maybe falling into has prevented me from maybe falling into has prevented me from maybe falling into things that otherwise I could have things that otherwise I could have things that otherwise I could have fallen into we'll never fallen into we'll never fallen into we'll never know well there's a lot there if if it's know well there's a lot there if if it's know well there's a lot there if if it's true that you know my little true that you know my little true that you know my little contribution really helped you stay out contribution really helped you stay out contribution really helped you stay out of burnout I'm so grateful for that of burnout I'm so grateful for that of burnout I'm so grateful for that that's really my heart behind it it's that's really my heart behind it it's that's really my heart behind it it's like you don't have to make the same like you don't have to make the same like you don't have to make the same mistake and just to clarify the mistake and just to clarify the mistake and just to clarify the principle no you're absolutely right principle no you're absolutely right principle no you're absolutely right that was a main factor there were a few that was a main factor there were a few that was a main factor there were a few others but I felt like you know in the others but I felt like you know in the others but I felt like you know in the early days of church leadership it was a early days of church leadership it was a early days of church leadership it was a little bit of effort a lot of results little bit of effort a lot of results little bit of effort a lot of results and it eventually after two decades felt and it eventually after two decades felt and it eventually after two decades felt like a lot of effort and good results we like a lot of effort and good results we like a lot of effort and good results we were still growing 10% or whatever but I were still growing 10% or whatever but I were still growing 10% or whatever but I would work on this leadership content would work on this leadership content would work on this leadership content whether it was writing or the podcast or whether it was writing or the podcast or whether it was writing or the podcast or a book or speaking and it was 1X effort a book or speaking and it was 1X effort a book or speaking and it was 1X effort 10x results and I'm like God are you 10x results and I'm like God are you 10x results and I'm like God are you trying to get my attention here I mean I trying to get my attention here I mean I trying to get my attention here I mean I don't want to be totally results driven don't want to be totally results driven don't want to be totally results driven but there's a certain point at which

but there's a certain point at which but there's a certain point at which you're kind of like I got to pay you're kind of like I got to pay you're kind of like I got to pay attention to this and you you found the attention to this and you you found the attention to this and you you found the same thing now you found yourself when same thing now you found yourself when same thing now you found yourself when did you join King of Kings as their did you join King of Kings as their did you join King of Kings as their teaching Pastor yeah so we joined here teaching Pastor yeah so we joined here teaching Pastor yeah so we joined here in summer of 2021 so stayed on at my in summer of 2021 so stayed on at my in summer of 2021 so stayed on at my church I planted in Florida for almost a church I planted in Florida for almost a church I planted in Florida for almost a year in a supportive role and I had a year in a supportive role and I had a year in a supportive role and I had a good time I'm not saying it wasn't good time I'm not saying it wasn't good time I'm not saying it wasn't without challenges there were decisions without challenges there were decisions without challenges there were decisions that the leadership made there that I'm that the leadership made there that I'm that the leadership made there that I'm like oh I wouldn't have made that like oh I wouldn't have made that like oh I wouldn't have made that decision so that was hard to sit in that decision so that was hard to sit in that decision so that was hard to sit in that secondary seat and to bite my tongue and secondary seat and to bite my tongue and secondary seat and to bite my tongue and and but I could also tell like the and but I could also tell like the and but I could also tell like the leaders that we had built up and the leaders that we had built up and the leaders that we had built up and the pastors that are there now like they're pastors that are there now like they're pastors that are there now like they're ready they kind of want to take the ball ready they kind of want to take the ball ready they kind of want to take the ball and run with it and I actually think and run with it and I actually think and run with it and I actually think they're going to do better without me they're going to do better without me they're going to do better without me and so that that took about six months and so that that took about six months and so that that took about six months to kind of mourn and grieve because I to kind of mourn and grieve because I to kind of mourn and grieve because I loved that church that was my baby I loved that church that was my baby I loved that church that was my baby I look back with those 11 years I like oh look back with those 11 years I like oh look back with those 11 years I like oh man that was so fun and we did so many man that was so fun and we did so many man that was so fun and we did so many fun and crazy things it's hard to not be fun and crazy things it's hard to not be fun and crazy things it's hard to not be the leader isn't it yeah yeah it is it the leader isn't it yeah yeah it is it the leader isn't it yeah yeah it is it is when you've been the leader yeah so is when you've been the leader yeah so is when you've been the leader yeah so so that's when like God what are you so that's when like God what are you so that's when like God what are you doing and and a a situation opened up doing and and a a situation opened up doing and and a a situation opened up for us to be here at King of Kings in for us to be here at King of Kings in for us to be here at King of Kings in Omaha Nebraska this is where I grew up Omaha Nebraska this is where I grew up Omaha Nebraska this is where I grew up Carri so I actually we moved here when I Carri so I actually we moved here when I Carri so I actually we moved here when I was 10 and my dad was the lead Pastor was 10 and my dad was the lead Pastor was 10 and my dad was the lead Pastor here for 28 29 years he just retired a here for 28 29 years he just retired a here for 28 29 years he just retired a couple of years ago but um it's kind of couple of years ago but um it's kind of couple of years ago but um it's kind of neat like looking back that I get to neat like looking back that I get to neat like looking back that I get to come back to a place that was so come back to a place that was so come back to a place that was so formational in my faith that now I can formational in my faith that now I can formational in my faith that now I can hopefully in a good way pour my gifts hopefully in a good way pour my gifts hopefully in a good way pour my gifts and talents into the church here so it's and talents into the church here so it's and talents into the church here so it's a it's a niche role it's a teaching a it's a niche role it's a teaching a it's a niche role it's a teaching Pastor role here which is what we wanted Pastor role here which is what we wanted Pastor role here which is what we wanted and so it's kind of like I get to be a

and so it's kind of like I get to be a and so it's kind of like I get to be a part of the teaching team and get to be part of the teaching team and get to be part of the teaching team and get to be in ministry here at the church because I in ministry here at the church because I in ministry here at the church because I love being a part of the local church love being a part of the local church love being a part of the local church and do feel called to that but at the and do feel called to that but at the and do feel called to that but at the same time they've given me enough space same time they've given me enough space same time they've given me enough space in my weekly but also in my annual uh in my weekly but also in my annual uh in my weekly but also in my annual uh quarterly calendars to continue to on quarterly calendars to continue to on quarterly calendars to continue to on the red letter living mission and so the red letter living mission and so the red letter living mission and so it's h it's been a really like uh sweet it's h it's been a really like uh sweet it's h it's been a really like uh sweet spot for us to hopefully maximize our spot for us to hopefully maximize our spot for us to hopefully maximize our our role at a local church but still be our role at a local church but still be our role at a local church but still be a a blessing to the Capitol c church and a a blessing to the Capitol c church and a a blessing to the Capitol c church and to clarify red letter living is your to clarify red letter living is your to clarify red letter living is your writing and Teaching Ministry that writing and Teaching Ministry that writing and Teaching Ministry that you've been doing how many books have you've been doing how many books have you've been doing how many books have you written now yeah red livings our our you written now yeah red livings our our you written now yeah red livings our our our U Mission our company is to our U Mission our company is to our U Mission our company is to challenge all people to be greater challenge all people to be greater challenge all people to be greater Disciples of Jesus so we we produce Disciples of Jesus so we we produce Disciples of Jesus so we we produce resources I'd say our Niche is 40-day resources I'd say our Niche is 40-day resources I'd say our Niche is 40-day challenges and so we have uh four 40-day challenges and so we have uh four 40-day challenges and so we have uh four 40-day challenges that we've written that are challenges that we've written that are challenges that we've written that are all discipleship based um I write the all discipleship based um I write the all discipleship based um I write the adult one or the you know the older adult one or the you know the older adult one or the you know the older student one and my my wife Allison student one and my my wife Allison student one and my my wife Allison writes the kids one and she's actually a writes the kids one and she's actually a writes the kids one and she's actually a supernatural writer and that made that supernatural writer and that made that supernatural writer and that made that decision of jumping into the red letter decision of jumping into the red letter decision of jumping into the red letter living a little more fully um even more living a little more fully um even more living a little more fully um even more as like I can do this with my wife so as like I can do this with my wife so as like I can do this with my wife so she writes the kids books um and then we she writes the kids books um and then we she writes the kids books um and then we actually co-wrote one this year that actually co-wrote one this year that actually co-wrote one this year that just came out called red letter Advent just came out called red letter Advent just came out called red letter Advent um helping churches uh celebrate this um helping churches uh celebrate this um helping churches uh celebrate this season of Advent but they're all season of Advent but they're all season of Advent but they're all discipleship focused in it's definitely discipleship focused in it's definitely discipleship focused in it's definitely our Niche we have a you know a podcast our Niche we have a you know a podcast our Niche we have a you know a podcast and our stuff's on right now media and and our stuff's on right now media and and our stuff's on right now media and we do webinars and all all things like we do webinars and all all things like we do webinars and all all things like that in addition but yeah what are some that in addition but yeah what are some that in addition but yeah what are some tips on working with your spouse with tips on working with your spouse with tips on working with your spouse with your your your wife oh man uh yeah that's a good one I

wife oh man uh yeah that's a good one I wife oh man uh yeah that's a good one I love working with Allison we we uh we we love working with Allison we we uh we we love working with Allison we we uh we we we've worked together honestly our we've worked together honestly our we've worked together honestly our entire marriage she started helping me entire marriage she started helping me entire marriage she started helping me with the head covers early on years and with the head covers early on years and with the head covers early on years and you know it provided a chance for her to you know it provided a chance for her to you know it provided a chance for her to work a little bit when we had young kids work a little bit when we had young kids work a little bit when we had young kids and then she was the kids minister at and then she was the kids minister at and then she was the kids minister at the church I was at and now of course we the church I was at and now of course we the church I was at and now of course we we do red letter living together uh I we do red letter living together uh I we do red letter living together uh I would say a couple things that are would say a couple things that are would say a couple things that are important for me is through it all um important for me is through it all um important for me is through it all um she's by my side and so if she has she's by my side and so if she has she's by my side and so if she has opinions or um strong opinions or um strong opinions or um strong urges I need to carry the weight of what urges I need to carry the weight of what urges I need to carry the weight of what she says 10x of what anyone else says she says 10x of what anyone else says she says 10x of what anyone else says because I know in the end like I'm with because I know in the end like I'm with because I know in the end like I'm with her and she's with me and she's been her and she's with me and she's been her and she's with me and she's been loyal and committed and so I think loyal and committed and so I think loyal and committed and so I think that's super important I wish that we that's super important I wish that we that's super important I wish that we had and knew the working genius stuff 20 had and knew the working genius stuff 20 had and knew the working genius stuff 20 years ago when we started all right years ago when we started all right years ago when we started all right Pat's been on here talking about that a Pat's been on here talking about that a Pat's been on here talking about that a little bit that is a game changer little bit that is a game changer little bit that is a game changer there's six categories what are you and there's six categories what are you and there's six categories what are you and what is she do you know that off the top what is she do you know that off the top what is she do you know that off the top of your head absolutely that's a game of your head absolutely that's a game of your head absolutely that's a game changer so I'm a I'm a galvanizer changer so I'm a I'm a galvanizer changer so I'm a I'm a galvanizer inventor and uh she's a discerner inventor and uh she's a discerner inventor and uh she's a discerner enablement and so what this means is I enablement and so what this means is I enablement and so what this means is I come up with ideas and they're all great come up with ideas and they're all great come up with ideas and they're all great and let's go that's what a galvanizer and let's go that's what a galvanizer and let's go that's what a galvanizer inventor does he's a discerner going inventor does he's a discerner going inventor does he's a discerner going hang on a second and she's a discerner hang on a second and she's a discerner hang on a second and she's a discerner and so when I didn't have those Concepts and so when I didn't have those Concepts and so when I didn't have those Concepts or that language it got to be really or that language it got to be really or that language it got to be really frustrating because Carrie I'm cooking frustrating because Carrie I'm cooking frustrating because Carrie I'm cooking great ideas all day long and I share

great ideas all day long and I share great ideas all day long and I share never had never had a bad idea yeah and never had never had a bad idea yeah and never had never had a bad idea yeah and I share it with her and she's like nope I share it with her and she's like nope I share it with her and she's like nope that won't work for this and this and that won't work for this and this and that won't work for this and this and this and I'm this and I'm this and I'm like I have to be so careful I'm the like I have to be so careful I'm the like I have to be so careful I'm the worst in brainstorming session because I worst in brainstorming session because I worst in brainstorming session because I I'm a discerner too I can see the I'm a discerner too I can see the I'm a discerner too I can see the problems the moment before you finish problems the moment before you finish problems the moment before you finish the sentence I'm like well here are five the sentence I'm like well here are five the sentence I'm like well here are five challenges you're going to face which challenges you're going to face which challenges you're going to face which ironically is what I do for a living but ironically is what I do for a living but ironically is what I do for a living but you know with a little bit of discretion you know with a little bit of discretion you know with a little bit of discretion you can frame that positively in a way you can frame that positively in a way you can frame that positively in a way that's helpful rather than the killjoy that's helpful rather than the killjoy that's helpful rather than the killjoy in every meeting 100% And and so I'm not in every meeting 100% And and so I'm not in every meeting 100% And and so I'm not like you know in the working genius you like you know in the working genius you like you know in the working genius you have two that you're really good at two have two that you're really good at two have two that you're really good at two that are frustrations that you're not that are frustrations that you're not that are frustrations that you're not good at or that you don't find joy in I good at or that you don't find joy in I good at or that you don't find joy in I should say as more more accurate and should say as more more accurate and should say as more more accurate and then there's two that like you are then there's two that like you are then there's two that like you are capable in so actually discernment is a capable in so actually discernment is a capable in so actually discernment is a capability for me and I think that's capability for me and I think that's capability for me and I think that's even worse because it's like no I even worse because it's like no I even worse because it's like no I actually have discerned this a little actually have discerned this a little actually have discerned this a little bit and then when she's telling me no bit and then when she's telling me no bit and then when she's telling me no and so I think understanding that like and so I think understanding that like and so I think understanding that like that's her way to kind of process things that's her way to kind of process things that's her way to kind of process things and she's actually not saying no to and she's actually not saying no to and she's actually not saying no to everything but it's also important for everything but it's also important for everything but it's also important for me that you know I don't need to share me that you know I don't need to share me that you know I don't need to share every idea I get right away I can every idea I get right away I can every idea I get right away I can probably sit on it for 24 hours I think probably sit on it for 24 hours I think probably sit on it for 24 hours I think I think that was a Seinfeld thing as a I think that was a Seinfeld thing as a I think that was a Seinfeld thing as a comedian is like he he he never shares comedian is like he he he never shares comedian is like he he he never shares what he writes in the first 24 hours what he writes in the first 24 hours what he writes in the first 24 hours because it's like he you're right he because it's like he you're right he because it's like he you're right he said that yeah and so I think there's said that yeah and so I think there's said that yeah and so I think there's wisdom in that it's like yeah let it wisdom in that it's like yeah let it wisdom in that it's like yeah let it bake for especially for us who are bake for especially for us who are bake for especially for us who are galvanizers inventors that maybe um galvanizers inventors that maybe um galvanizers inventors that maybe um don't that discernment is not a a a don't that discernment is not a a a don't that discernment is not a a a compens or a um genius for us is let it compens or a um genius for us is let it compens or a um genius for us is let it let it sit for a while and before you let it sit for a while and before you let it sit for a while and before you before you share it and so anyway those

before you share it and so anyway those before you share it and so anyway those are some things like I wish I had known are some things like I wish I had known are some things like I wish I had known that I think now that we know that we that I think now that we know that we that I think now that we know that we work together a lot a lot better and uh work together a lot a lot better and uh work together a lot a lot better and uh yeah we compliment Each Other Well two yeah we compliment Each Other Well two yeah we compliment Each Other Well two final questions for you Zach now that final questions for you Zach now that final questions for you Zach now that you are not the lead pastor at King of you are not the lead pastor at King of you are not the lead pastor at King of Kings um hard to sit on your hands or a Kings um hard to sit on your hands or a Kings um hard to sit on your hands or a role you adjusted to pretty role you adjusted to pretty role you adjusted to pretty quickly I think if I didn't have red quickly I think if I didn't have red quickly I think if I didn't have red letter living that allows me a space to letter living that allows me a space to letter living that allows me a space to Galvanize to lead to Rally it'd be a lot Galvanize to lead to Rally it'd be a lot Galvanize to lead to Rally it'd be a lot more challenging for me I I will say more challenging for me I I will say more challenging for me I I will say Carrie that I I don't sit in a number Carrie that I I don't sit in a number Carrie that I I don't sit in a number one seat I'm in a you know I'm in a one seat I'm in a you know I'm in a one seat I'm in a you know I'm in a secondary or whatever terti whatever secondary or whatever terti whatever secondary or whatever terti whatever seat it is I don't know what it is I'm seat it is I don't know what it is I'm seat it is I don't know what it is I'm not in that lead seat but I cannot not not in that lead seat but I cannot not not in that lead seat but I cannot not think like a lead pastor and so it's think like a lead pastor and so it's think like a lead pastor and so it's it's just ingrained in me I think about it's just ingrained in me I think about it's just ingrained in me I think about 95 days out of a 100 I'm really content 95 days out of a 100 I'm really content 95 days out of a 100 I'm really content in the seat that I sit in and about five in the seat that I sit in and about five in the seat that I sit in and about five days out of a hundred I struggle and I'm days out of a hundred I struggle and I'm days out of a hundred I struggle and I'm like man I really wish I was the lead like man I really wish I was the lead like man I really wish I was the lead Pastor today because I would have said I Pastor today because I would have said I Pastor today because I would have said I would have done XYZ and what's been would have done XYZ and what's been would have done XYZ and what's been helpful for me is my our lead Pastor helpful for me is my our lead Pastor helpful for me is my our lead Pastor Greg who's a great friend he's in your Greg who's a great friend he's in your Greg who's a great friend he's in your art of leadership academy you know um is art of leadership academy you know um is art of leadership academy you know um is he allows me the space and the time to he allows me the space and the time to he allows me the space and the time to come and share with him um on those five come and share with him um on those five come and share with him um on those five out of a hundred days why I would have out of a hundred days why I would have out of a hundred days why I would have said something why I would have done said something why I would have done said something why I would have done something every now and then it actually something every now and then it actually something every now and then it actually might change his mind um because if I'm might change his mind um because if I'm might change his mind um because if I'm that passionate about he probably should that passionate about he probably should that passionate about he probably should listen but there's also like he hears me listen but there's also like he hears me listen but there's also like he hears me and he's like yeah we're still not doing and he's like yeah we're still not doing and he's like yeah we're still not doing what you think and and at the end of it

what you think and and at the end of it what you think and and at the end of it like I actually feel okay I got to vent like I actually feel okay I got to vent like I actually feel okay I got to vent I got to share it and he's the lead I got to share it and he's the lead I got to share it and he's the lead pastor and has to deal was so many pastor and has to deal was so many pastor and has to deal was so many different things I think what's hard for different things I think what's hard for different things I think what's hard for people that have never sat in a lead people that have never sat in a lead people that have never sat in a lead Pastor position is you just don't know Pastor position is you just don't know Pastor position is you just don't know what a lead Pastor experiences or goes what a lead Pastor experiences or goes what a lead Pastor experiences or goes through and and and to think that you do through and and and to think that you do through and and and to think that you do is is foolish and and so I know what is is foolish and and so I know what is is foolish and and so I know what that's like and who he's got to answer that's like and who he's got to answer that's like and who he's got to answer to and how he's got to drip that Vision to and how he's got to drip that Vision to and how he's got to drip that Vision down and execute that or at least down and execute that or at least down and execute that or at least somewhat of what that's like I don't somewhat of what that's like I don't somewhat of what that's like I don't know exactly because I've not been the know exactly because I've not been the know exactly because I've not been the lead Pastor in this church in that seat lead Pastor in this church in that seat lead Pastor in this church in that seat but I right understand it enough Dynamic but I right understand it enough Dynamic but I right understand it enough Dynamic yeah and I understand it enough to know yeah and I understand it enough to know yeah and I understand it enough to know I can share my opinion and go home at I can share my opinion and go home at I can share my opinion and go home at night and not have to be the guy that night and not have to be the guy that night and not have to be the guy that implements it and so from that implements it and so from that implements it and so from that perspective it's been really good I perspective it's been really good I perspective it's been really good I would say if I I could real quick on would say if I I could real quick on would say if I I could real quick on that that what I have noticed though is that that what I have noticed though is that that what I have noticed though is that if you are a number one if you're a that if you are a number one if you're a that if you are a number one if you're a lead pastor and you've got you know guys lead pastor and you've got you know guys lead pastor and you've got you know guys like me that are driven that are like me that are driven that are like me that are driven that are motivated that are our doers our motivated that are our doers our motivated that are our doers our self-starters our galvanizers inventors self-starters our galvanizers inventors self-starters our galvanizers inventors like you may be leaving more on the like you may be leaving more on the like you may be leaving more on the table with those people if you don't table with those people if you don't table with those people if you don't invite them in and actually allow them invite them in and actually allow them invite them in and actually allow them um places because I still have that and um places because I still have that and um places because I still have that and I yes I get it with red letter but I yes I get it with red letter but I yes I get it with red letter but there's also times at at church here at there's also times at at church here at there's also times at at church here at King of Kings where I'm like ah I want King of Kings where I'm like ah I want King of Kings where I'm like ah I want to I want to do X Y or Z and actually I to I want to do X Y or Z and actually I to I want to do X Y or Z and actually I had this conversation with Pastor Greg had this conversation with Pastor Greg had this conversation with Pastor Greg uh about 12 months ago I like hey man I uh about 12 months ago I like hey man I uh about 12 months ago I like hey man I don't know what it is but the last six don't know what it is but the last six don't know what it is but the last six months I just I know I'm not the leader months I just I know I'm not the leader months I just I know I'm not the leader but it does feel like my my leadership but it does feel like my my leadership but it does feel like my my leadership muscles here in the local church are

muscles here in the local church are muscles here in the local church are kind of grown atrophy and like I don't kind of grown atrophy and like I don't kind of grown atrophy and like I don't like that I feel like for me to be a like that I feel like for me to be a like that I feel like for me to be a better leader on the red letter side I better leader on the red letter side I better leader on the red letter side I got to lead something here at King of got to lead something here at King of got to lead something here at King of Kings and so like think about it and and Kings and so like think about it and and Kings and so like think about it and and and for me this was me saying like I and for me this was me saying like I and for me this was me saying like I want to do more I can do more I'm ready want to do more I can do more I'm ready want to do more I can do more I'm ready to do more and he did listen and he did to do more and he did listen and he did to do more and he did listen and he did give me more and you got to be careful give me more and you got to be careful give me more and you got to be careful because he threw everything at me the because he threw everything at me the because he threw everything at me the very next day yeah but I think like very next day yeah but I think like very next day yeah but I think like there are those people that sit in those there are those people that sit in those there are those people that sit in those number two or number three or whatever number two or number three or whatever number two or number three or whatever seats they are that there could be like seats they are that there could be like seats they are that there could be like if you'd listen to their ideas like like if you'd listen to their ideas like like if you'd listen to their ideas like like they might want to run with these things they might want to run with these things they might want to run with these things and and and and allow them because that and and and and allow them because that and and and and allow them because that can be frustrating when they're in those can be frustrating when they're in those can be frustrating when they're in those seats and they wanted do things and want seats and they wanted do things and want seats and they wanted do things and want to lead things and they don't get those to lead things and they don't get those to lead things and they don't get those Outlets um there could be people on your Outlets um there could be people on your Outlets um there could be people on your staffs right now that like yeah they're staffs right now that like yeah they're staffs right now that like yeah they're ready to go and like let's see what they ready to go and like let's see what they ready to go and like let's see what they can do no and that's a testimony to Greg can do no and that's a testimony to Greg can do no and that's a testimony to Greg too it takes a very secure leader to too it takes a very secure leader to too it takes a very secure leader to have strong people in secondary or have strong people in secondary or have strong people in secondary or tertiary roles okay final question I tertiary roles okay final question I tertiary roles okay final question I would love to get your best advice for would love to get your best advice for would love to get your best advice for those who are entrepreneurial who are those who are entrepreneurial who are those who are entrepreneurial who are listening who have a day job whether listening who have a day job whether listening who have a day job whether that's a lead Pastor in business or that's a lead Pastor in business or that's a lead Pastor in business or staff role at a church who have a side staff role at a church who have a side staff role at a church who have a side hustle or want to start one what are hustle or want to start one what are hustle or want to start one what are some dos and don'ts for leaders because some dos and don'ts for leaders because some dos and don'ts for leaders because I mean you and I are cut from a similar I mean you and I are cut from a similar I mean you and I are cut from a similar cloth I think and one of the reasons I cloth I think and one of the reasons I cloth I think and one of the reasons I don't really have a side hustle is what don't really have a side hustle is what don't really have a side hustle is what I do right now is so one day it's a I do right now is so one day it's a I do right now is so one day it's a podcast and every interview is a new podcast and every interview is a new podcast and every interview is a new interview and then I'm writing something interview and then I'm writing something interview and then I'm writing something and then I'm working on a book and then and then I'm working on a book and then and then I'm working on a book and then I'm speaking and flying into a new city I'm speaking and flying into a new city I'm speaking and flying into a new city so it feels like a constant stream of

so it feels like a constant stream of so it feels like a constant stream of steady distractions and interesting steady distractions and interesting steady distractions and interesting things to me uh which is which is great things to me uh which is which is great things to me uh which is which is great it's dream job I'm very blessed to be it's dream job I'm very blessed to be it's dream job I'm very blessed to be able to do what I do but you know when I able to do what I do but you know when I able to do what I do but you know when I was in that one role I really found that was in that one role I really found that was in that one role I really found that I was always gravitating toward a side I was always gravitating toward a side I was always gravitating toward a side hustle very similar to you so what what hustle very similar to you so what what hustle very similar to you so what what advice do you have for leaders who are advice do you have for leaders who are advice do you have for leaders who are drawn to the same yeah obviously let's drawn to the same yeah obviously let's drawn to the same yeah obviously let's let's start with like what should be let's start with like what should be let's start with like what should be obvious that if we're Believers and obvious that if we're Believers and obvious that if we're Believers and Christians and pastors and leaders uh Christians and pastors and leaders uh Christians and pastors and leaders uh let's start by spending time in prayer let's start by spending time in prayer let's start by spending time in prayer with the Lord and really Discerning um with the Lord and really Discerning um with the Lord and really Discerning um his voice uh in it and I think obviously his voice uh in it and I think obviously his voice uh in it and I think obviously talking with people who've gone through talking with people who've gone through talking with people who've gone through it is really great really great it is really great really great it is really great really great counseling advice to have somebody who's counseling advice to have somebody who's counseling advice to have somebody who's done you know something like this and done you know something like this and done you know something like this and and so yeah what I would say is if it's and so yeah what I would say is if it's and so yeah what I would say is if it's just a side thing like let's shoot just a side thing like let's shoot just a side thing like let's shoot bullet like just Jim Jim Collins right bullet like just Jim Jim Collins right bullet like just Jim Jim Collins right shoot bullets than cannons like cool go shoot bullets than cannons like cool go shoot bullets than cannons like cool go with it see what happens and and maybe a with it see what happens and and maybe a with it see what happens and and maybe a couple years later you're left with a couple years later you're left with a couple years later you're left with a bigger decision which you were left with bigger decision which you were left with bigger decision which you were left with Carrie which I was left with and then I Carrie which I was left with and then I Carrie which I was left with and then I needed to make a whole new decision of needed to make a whole new decision of needed to make a whole new decision of God are you calling me into this yeah so God are you calling me into this yeah so God are you calling me into this yeah so so I think sometimes people like it is a so I think sometimes people like it is a so I think sometimes people like it is a side thing and so you don't need to side thing and so you don't need to side thing and so you don't need to uproot anything and everything but if uproot anything and everything but if uproot anything and everything but if you feel like God is putting something you feel like God is putting something you feel like God is putting something in your heart and that's what red letter in your heart and that's what red letter in your heart and that's what red letter challenge was for me our first book was challenge was for me our first book was challenge was for me our first book was like I just feel like I for whatever like I just feel like I for whatever like I just feel like I for whatever reason I'm not a writer nobody's ever reason I'm not a writer nobody's ever reason I'm not a writer nobody's ever told me or a professor or a teacher told me or a professor or a teacher told me or a professor or a teacher never said like one day you're G to be a never said like one day you're G to be a never said like one day you're G to be a writer and people are going to read your writer and people are going to read your writer and people are going to read your stuff and they're gonna it's going to be stuff and they're gonna it's going to be stuff and they're gonna it's going to be make an impact in the world like that's

make an impact in the world like that's make an impact in the world like that's crazy that's foolish but for whatever crazy that's foolish but for whatever crazy that's foolish but for whatever reason this New Concept we had our reason this New Concept we had our reason this New Concept we had our church plan of doing what Jesus calls us church plan of doing what Jesus calls us church plan of doing what Jesus calls us to do putting his words into practice to do putting his words into practice to do putting his words into practice was a seven-year idea that I could not was a seven-year idea that I could not was a seven-year idea that I could not get out of my brain that I felt like God get out of my brain that I felt like God get out of my brain that I felt like God put in my lap to Steward for this put in my lap to Steward for this put in my lap to Steward for this generation and Beyond and and so okay I generation and Beyond and and so okay I generation and Beyond and and so okay I will do what I need to I don't know what will do what I need to I don't know what will do what I need to I don't know what I'm doing but I will take steps and over I'm doing but I will take steps and over I'm doing but I will take steps and over it took me seven years Carrie to write it took me seven years Carrie to write it took me seven years Carrie to write the first book because I never planned the first book because I never planned the first book because I never planned on it I never knew how I was leading a on it I never knew how I was leading a on it I never knew how I was leading a church full-time so like but it was a church full-time so like but it was a church full-time so like but it was a bullet and like at the end of it I was bullet and like at the end of it I was bullet and like at the end of it I was like cool God I was faithful with what like cool God I was faithful with what like cool God I was faithful with what you told me me to do now I'm going to you told me me to do now I'm going to you told me me to do now I'm going to get back to my day job lead pastor and get back to my day job lead pastor and get back to my day job lead pastor and it didn't happen that way that was a it didn't happen that way that was a it didn't happen that way that was a bullet that I felt like I was faithful bullet that I felt like I was faithful bullet that I felt like I was faithful with and then if if it if it goes if uh with and then if if it if it goes if uh with and then if if it if it goes if uh in a spiritual world it's anointed like in a spiritual world it's anointed like in a spiritual world it's anointed like awesome then start asking the next awesome then start asking the next awesome then start asking the next questions of is this a side thing or God questions of is this a side thing or God questions of is this a side thing or God is are you calling me more into this and is are you calling me more into this and is are you calling me more into this and those are a whole new set of those are a whole new set of those are a whole new set of conversations yeah well Zach it's been a conversations yeah well Zach it's been a conversations yeah well Zach it's been a fascinating conversation thank you so fascinating conversation thank you so fascinating conversation thank you so much if people want to know about red much if people want to know about red much if people want to know about red letter living where can they go and letter living where can they go and letter living where can they go and where can they find you online yeah where can they find you online yeah where can they find you online yeah absolutely I would I would encourage absolutely I would I would encourage absolutely I would I would encourage especially pastors and church leaders especially pastors and church leaders especially pastors and church leaders check out redl challenge.com check out redl challenge.com check out redl challenge.com jooin redl challenge.com jooin um there jooin redl challenge.com jooin um there jooin redl challenge.com jooin um there you can see what we do with red letter you can see what we do with red letter you can see what we do with red letter especially our 40-day challenges we especially our 40-day challenges we especially our 40-day challenges we actually have a link on there to uh grab actually have a link on there to uh grab actually have a link on there to uh grab a free 40-day challenge for the USA a free 40-day challenge for the USA a free 40-day challenge for the USA pastors um if you're International we'll pastors um if you're International we'll pastors um if you're International we'll send you digital samples but you can get send you digital samples but you can get send you digital samples but you can get a free Pastor there uh or a free book

a free Pastor there uh or a free book a free Pastor there uh or a free book there and then uh email me Zach Zac at there and then uh email me Zach Zac at there and then uh email me Zach Zac at redl challenge.com if you want to talk redl challenge.com if you want to talk redl challenge.com if you want to talk discipleship or press in a little more discipleship or press in a little more discipleship or press in a little more i' I'd love to do that it's it's what i' I'd love to do that it's it's what i' I'd love to do that it's it's what God's put me in a place to do and and if God's put me in a place to do and and if God's put me in a place to do and and if I can help your church and have a I can help your church and have a I can help your church and have a conversation with you about it I would conversation with you about it I would conversation with you about it I would love to so thanks Carrie and you said love to so thanks Carrie and you said love to so thanks Carrie and you said earlier if what you said is true about earlier if what you said is true about earlier if what you said is true about me helping prevent burnout it is true me helping prevent burnout it is true me helping prevent burnout it is true you're a blessing to so many and I truly you're a blessing to so many and I truly you're a blessing to so many and I truly hope that uh God just continues to hope that uh God just continues to hope that uh God just continues to anoint and bless what you're doing and anoint and bless what you're doing and anoint and bless what you're doing and uh happy to call you friend and and uh happy to call you friend and and uh happy to call you friend and and thankful for uh you having me on today thankful for uh you having me on today thankful for uh you having me on today well I'm really grateful we met and and well I'm really grateful we met and and well I'm really grateful we met and and uh really excited for the journey ahead uh really excited for the journey ahead uh really excited for the journey ahead too thank you so much Zach absolutely