The SECRET to Reaching People in a Crowded World with Malcolm Gladwell

I think that we have um uh in some ways I think that we have um uh in some ways prematurely buried the story um you know prematurely buried the story um you know prematurely buried the story um you know there for the longest people said oh you there for the longest people said oh you there for the longest people said oh you know our attention spans are getting know our attention spans are getting know our attention spans are getting shorter and I I don't I don't by that I shorter and I I don't I don't by that I shorter and I I don't I don't by that I think what's happened is that things think what's happened is that things think what's happened is that things that can be shortened have been that can be shortened have been that can be shortened have been shortened welcome to the K newoff shortened welcome to the K newoff shortened welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube Hey today leadership podcast on YouTube Hey today leadership podcast on YouTube Hey today Malcolm Gladwell we're going to talk Malcolm Gladwell we're going to talk Malcolm Gladwell we're going to talk about his writing process well go behind about his writing process well go behind about his writing process well go behind the scenes and also look at reaching the scenes and also look at reaching the scenes and also look at reaching people in a crowded world how do you people in a crowded world how do you people in a crowded world how do you actually get your message out well actually get your message out well actually get your message out well today's episode is brought to you by the today's episode is brought to you by the today's episode is brought to you by the art of leadership academy you know in art of leadership academy you know in art of leadership academy you know in leadership you can find yourself feeling leadership you can find yourself feeling leadership you can find yourself feeling stuck overwhelmed and out of ideas on stuck overwhelmed and out of ideas on stuck overwhelmed and out of ideas on how to lead your church with my private how to lead your church with my private how to lead your church with my private online community the art of leadership online community the art of leadership online community the art of leadership academy you finally have a go-to place academy you finally have a go-to place academy you finally have a go-to place to get the answers and Clarity you need to get the answers and Clarity you need to get the answers and Clarity you need to keep your mission and your church to keep your mission and your church to keep your mission and your church growing it's also available at your growing it's also available at your growing it's also available at your fingertips 24hour hour a day 7 days a fingertips 24hour hour a day 7 days a fingertips 24hour hour a day 7 days a week so if you want to join it's got all week so if you want to join it's got all week so if you want to join it's got all my courses in it visit the artof my courses in it visit the artof my courses in it visit the artof leadership academy.com and you'll get leadership academy.com and you'll get leadership academy.com and you'll get instant access to training programs and instant access to training programs and instant access to training programs and an amazing community and today's episode an amazing community and today's episode an amazing community and today's episode is also brought to you by compassion is also brought to you by compassion is also brought to you by compassion Compassion International has been Compassion International has been Compassion International has been tirelessly fueling Believers worldwide tirelessly fueling Believers worldwide tirelessly fueling Believers worldwide to share the good news of Jesus by to share the good news of Jesus by to share the good news of Jesus by lifting children out of poverty and lifting children out of poverty and lifting children out of poverty and they've been changing lives for over 70 they've been changing lives for over 70 they've been changing lives for over 70 years so my church has partnered with years so my church has partnered with years so my church has partnered with compassion for over a decade and so I compassion for over a decade and so I compassion for over a decade and so I personally if you want to get involved personally if you want to get involved personally if you want to get involved in really making a difference around the in really making a difference around the in really making a difference around the world go to compassion.com carry to

world go to compassion.com carry to world go to compassion.com carry to learn more hey and if you haven't learn more hey and if you haven't learn more hey and if you haven't subscribed yet to this Channel Make sure subscribed yet to this Channel Make sure subscribed yet to this Channel Make sure you do because you'll get incredible you do because you'll get incredible you do because you'll get incredible interviews like my conversation with interviews like my conversation with interviews like my conversation with Malcolm Gladwell and we'll go there now Malcolm Gladwell and we'll go there now Malcolm Gladwell and we'll go there now Malcolm welcome back to the podcast Malcolm welcome back to the podcast Malcolm welcome back to the podcast thank you it's a pleasure to be back thank you it's a pleasure to be back thank you it's a pleasure to be back yeah so I want to um Begin by looking at yeah so I want to um Begin by looking at yeah so I want to um Begin by looking at why you decided to revisit the Tipping why you decided to revisit the Tipping why you decided to revisit the Tipping Point uh 25 years later Point uh 25 years later Point uh 25 years later it was uh well I was originally just it was uh well I was originally just it was uh well I was originally just going to do a 25th anniversary kind of going to do a 25th anniversary kind of going to do a 25th anniversary kind of refresh you know like like a new refresh you know like like a new refresh you know like like a new introduction or something like that new introduction or something like that new introduction or something like that new introduction maybe swap out a chapter or introduction maybe swap out a chapter or introduction maybe swap out a chapter or two and then I got into it and I two and then I got into it and I two and then I got into it and I realized uh actually what I really want realized uh actually what I really want realized uh actually what I really want to do was to write a sequel I want to I to do was to write a sequel I want to I to do was to write a sequel I want to I want to go back want to go back want to go back and um rethink everything I I approached and um rethink everything I I approached and um rethink everything I I approached 25 years ago through the lens of what's 25 years ago through the lens of what's 25 years ago through the lens of what's happened because what I what I found was happened because what I what I found was happened because what I what I found was you know 25 years is a lot is a very you know 25 years is a lot is a very you know 25 years is a lot is a very long time and uh particularly these days long time and uh particularly these days long time and uh particularly these days you know these days things seem dated you know these days things seem dated you know these days things seem dated after two years so um it just seemed after two years so um it just seemed after two years so um it just seemed like uh it it just seemed weird to kind like uh it it just seemed weird to kind like uh it it just seemed weird to kind of you know do a do a revision on of you know do a do a revision on of you know do a do a revision on something that was so rooted in a kind something that was so rooted in a kind something that was so rooted in a kind of pre in the pre- internet age in the of pre in the pre- internet age in the of pre in the pre- internet age in the prepandemic age in I mean there's so prepandemic age in I mean there's so prepandemic age in I mean there's so much with so much has changed and we much with so much has changed and we much with so much has changed and we know so much more now than we did about know so much more now than we did about know so much more now than we did about these things so I decided no it would be these things so I decided no it would be these things so I decided no it would be it would be much more fun to kind of it would be much more fun to kind of it would be much more fun to kind of start from scratch and think of this as

start from scratch and think of this as start from scratch and think of this as part two yeah well it is an entirely new part two yeah well it is an entirely new part two yeah well it is an entirely new book so we'll get into the the content book so we'll get into the the content book so we'll get into the the content of it in a little bit but I was telling of it in a little bit but I was telling of it in a little bit but I was telling you it was my weekend read I got it you it was my weekend read I got it you it was my weekend read I got it Friday I think and uh was prepping for Friday I think and uh was prepping for Friday I think and uh was prepping for this interview and I got into the first this interview and I got into the first this interview and I got into the first page and I'm like oh thank goodness it's page and I'm like oh thank goodness it's page and I'm like oh thank goodness it's Malcolm Gladwell and you just have such Malcolm Gladwell and you just have such Malcolm Gladwell and you just have such a a wonderful way of writing and uh you a a wonderful way of writing and uh you a a wonderful way of writing and uh you drew me in like you hooked me and I drew me in like you hooked me and I drew me in like you hooked me and I thought this is this is Magic the way thought this is this is Magic the way thought this is this is Magic the way that that you write and I'm wondering if that that you write and I'm wondering if that that you write and I'm wondering if you could talk to us because this is you could talk to us because this is you could talk to us because this is book number what six or seven for you uh book number what six or seven for you uh book number what six or seven for you uh of major titles what your approach to of major titles what your approach to of major titles what your approach to writing is uh it seems to be a beautiful writing is uh it seems to be a beautiful writing is uh it seems to be a beautiful combination in your different books of combination in your different books of combination in your different books of like analysis like analysis like analysis statistics narrative story and I find it statistics narrative story and I find it statistics narrative story and I find it very compelling so how would you very compelling so how would you very compelling so how would you characterize your approach to writing characterize your approach to writing characterize your approach to writing well I guess it's always I always start well I guess it's always I always start well I guess it's always I always start with a there's always a question I want with a there's always a question I want with a there's always a question I want to to to answer um and a story I want to tell and answer um and a story I want to tell and answer um and a story I want to tell and I think of those as being if you if you I think of those as being if you if you I think of those as being if you if you know the story you want to tell in the know the story you want to tell in the know the story you want to tell in the question you want to answer it makes question you want to answer it makes question you want to answer it makes your life a lot easier when you're your life a lot easier when you're your life a lot easier when you're writing so you your story gives you writing so you your story gives you writing so you your story gives you character and plot and the question character and plot and the question character and plot and the question gives you gives you gives you suspense you know that there's in a lot suspense you know that there's in a lot suspense you know that there's in a lot of the chapters in this book as in so of the chapters in this book as in so of the chapters in this book as in so many of my books you know they're they many of my books you know they're they many of my books you know they're they pose a question at the beginning and the pose a question at the beginning and the pose a question at the beginning and the answer is not obvious yeah um you know

answer is not obvious yeah um you know answer is not obvious yeah um you know so you you there's a reason then for for so you you there's a reason then for for so you you there's a reason then for for the for the for the audience to to stay the for the for the audience to to stay the for the for the audience to to stay tuned because there's something they tuned because there's something they tuned because there's something they want to know and it's also from a writer want to know and it's also from a writer want to know and it's also from a writer standpoint there's a there's a a clear standpoint there's a there's a a clear standpoint there's a there's a a clear logic to the story I'm telling because logic to the story I'm telling because logic to the story I'm telling because I'm I'm you know I'm on I'm on I'm on I'm I'm you know I'm on I'm on I'm on I'm I'm you know I'm on I'm on I'm on this this quest to reveal the answer to this this quest to reveal the answer to this this quest to reveal the answer to this kind of Oddball question you know this kind of Oddball question you know this kind of Oddball question you know like there's a chapter in the book like there's a chapter in the book like there's a chapter in the book on on the way we thought about the on on the way we thought about the on on the way we thought about the Holocaust in this country and how for Holocaust in this country and how for Holocaust in this country and how for years decades after the second world war years decades after the second world war years decades after the second world war no one talked about the Holocaust which no one talked about the Holocaust which no one talked about the Holocaust which you know is so surprising to any of us you know is so surprising to any of us you know is so surprising to any of us now who think about it oh we must all now who think about it oh we must all now who think about it oh we must all have been but no no it was it was a have been but no no it was it was a have been but no no it was it was a subject that just never came up until subject that just never came up until subject that just never came up until the 70s that's sort of an incredible and the 70s that's sort of an incredible and the 70s that's sort of an incredible and then but that raises this this then but that raises this this then but that raises this this incredibly interesting question which is incredibly interesting question which is incredibly interesting question which is why right so the minute I I start by why right so the minute I I start by why right so the minute I I start by telling you something that I think you telling you something that I think you telling you something that I think you didn't know and the reason I think you didn't know and the reason I think you didn't know and the reason I think you didn't know is that I didn't didn't know is that I didn't didn't know is that I didn't know I I thought I didn't know there was know I I thought I didn't know there was know I I thought I didn't know there was this kind of like mystery about the this kind of like mystery about the this kind of like mystery about the Holocaust for 30 years after the war and Holocaust for 30 years after the war and Holocaust for 30 years after the war and then we embarked together on this then we embarked together on this then we embarked together on this journey to figure out why and along the journey to figure out why and along the journey to figure out why and along the way we way we way we meet this incredible cast of characters meet this incredible cast of characters meet this incredible cast of characters you know these uh so that's a kind of you know these uh so that's a kind of you know these uh so that's a kind of that chapter which I in the book which I that chapter which I in the book which I that chapter which I in the book which I really love um is a kind of it's a really love um is a kind of it's a really love um is a kind of it's a really good example of the way I like to

really good example of the way I like to really good example of the way I like to tell stories when I when I'm I'm I have tell stories when I when I'm I'm I have tell stories when I when I'm I'm I have a I have a I have a story and then I a I have a I have a story and then I a I have a I have a story and then I have a purpose for the story and they have a purpose for the story and they have a purpose for the story and they they come together well it's inductive they come together well it's inductive they come together well it's inductive rather deductive which I must say as a rather deductive which I must say as a rather deductive which I must say as a podcaster who's interviewed hundreds of podcaster who's interviewed hundreds of podcaster who's interviewed hundreds of people makes your books not very people makes your books not very people makes your books not very skimmable but very compelling do you skimmable but very compelling do you skimmable but very compelling do you know what I mean cuz sometimes it's like know what I mean cuz sometimes it's like know what I mean cuz sometimes it's like well word holocaust didn't show up until well word holocaust didn't show up until well word holocaust didn't show up until 1978 and strangely it was April of 1978 1978 and strangely it was April of 1978 1978 and strangely it was April of 1978 you don't give away the ending and what you don't give away the ending and what you don't give away the ending and what makes it really fascinating to me you makes it really fascinating to me you makes it really fascinating to me you know we live in the attention economy know we live in the attention economy know we live in the attention economy now that's different than 25 years ago now that's different than 25 years ago now that's different than 25 years ago but it's got It's got it's an but it's got It's got it's an but it's got It's got it's an interesting combination of what feels interesting combination of what feels interesting combination of what feels like it could be really great fiction like it could be really great fiction like it could be really great fiction like a screenplay or a story except it's like a screenplay or a story except it's like a screenplay or a story except it's rooted in in you know facts analysis rooted in in you know facts analysis rooted in in you know facts analysis whether that's the Holocaust or what's whether that's the Holocaust or what's whether that's the Holocaust or what's that town called popler Grove or whether that town called popler Grove or whether that town called popler Grove or whether it's uh the opioid crisis and the role it's uh the opioid crisis and the role it's uh the opioid crisis and the role of oxycotton in the midst of it etc etc of oxycotton in the midst of it etc etc of oxycotton in the midst of it etc etc so it's a masterful storytelling thing so it's a masterful storytelling thing so it's a masterful storytelling thing um what else about your approach to um what else about your approach to um what else about your approach to story have you developed over the story have you developed over the story have you developed over the years well one is um another difference years well one is um another difference years well one is um another difference you know and I went back and I read the you know and I went back and I read the you know and I went back and I read the original Tipping Point which is my first original Tipping Point which is my first original Tipping Point which is my first book so book so book so that was really that's me at the that was really that's me at the that was really that's me at the beginning of this kind of Journey I've beginning of this kind of Journey I've beginning of this kind of Journey I've been on and this is my seventh or eighth been on and this is my seventh or eighth been on and this is my seventh or eighth book um and there has been sort of a

book um and there has been sort of a book um and there has been sort of a significant Evolution along the way in significant Evolution along the way in significant Evolution along the way in the way that I tell stories and one of the way that I tell stories and one of the way that I tell stories and one of them is that I was much more Reliant them is that I was much more Reliant them is that I was much more Reliant there's always in my stories I kind of I there's always in my stories I kind of I there's always in my stories I kind of I toggle back and forth between data and toggle back and forth between data and toggle back and forth between data and scientific evidence and studies scientific evidence and studies scientific evidence and studies psychological studies and and psychological studies and and psychological studies and and storytelling and I think back then I storytelling and I think back then I storytelling and I think back then I leaned more heavily on the data and the leaned more heavily on the data and the leaned more heavily on the data and the science end of it and now I lean more science end of it and now I lean more science end of it and now I lean more heavily on the story end of it and I heavily on the story end of it and I heavily on the story end of it and I think that's an evolution where I've think that's an evolution where I've think that's an evolution where I've come to understand is that you don't come to understand is that you don't come to understand is that you don't need a lot need a lot need a lot of of of uh you don't I I think I was I didn't uh you don't I I think I was I didn't uh you don't I I think I was I didn't have as much faith in the power of have as much faith in the power of have as much faith in the power of scientific evidence in the beginning as scientific evidence in the beginning as scientific evidence in the beginning as I do now you don't need to you don't I I do now you don't need to you don't I I do now you don't need to you don't I don't need to give you seven reasons why don't need to give you seven reasons why don't need to give you seven reasons why something why why researchers believe something why why researchers believe something why why researchers believe something to be so if I pick the something to be so if I pick the something to be so if I pick the strongest of those reasons and build a strongest of those reasons and build a strongest of those reasons and build a story around it I feel that's sufficient story around it I feel that's sufficient story around it I feel that's sufficient um you know there's a little factoid in um you know there's a little factoid in um you know there's a little factoid in the book about um I'm just just comes the book about um I'm just just comes the book about um I'm just just comes I'm just thinking about this at random I'm just thinking about this at random I'm just thinking about this at random there's a little factoid about uh the there's a little factoid about uh the there's a little factoid about uh the black white test score Gap in schools M black white test score Gap in schools M black white test score Gap in schools M and you know we we've known for decades and you know we we've known for decades and you know we we've known for decades now that if you test a random sample of now that if you test a random sample of now that if you test a random sample of black and white school children there black and white school children there black and white school children there will be a gap in their performance and will be a gap in their performance and will be a gap in their performance and the gap's not trivial right and we've the gap's not trivial right and we've the gap's not trivial right and we've been having this argument about why why

been having this argument about why why been having this argument about why why that Gap I think 25 years ago I would that Gap I think 25 years ago I would that Gap I think 25 years ago I would have spent 15 pages talking about all have spent 15 pages talking about all have spent 15 pages talking about all the evidence for this Gap and then I the evidence for this Gap and then I the evidence for this Gap and then I would have told you a story about it and would have told you a story about it and would have told you a story about it and now I realized no no no why don't I now I realized no no no why don't I now I realized no no no why don't I spend 10 pages telling you the story and spend 10 pages telling you the story and spend 10 pages telling you the story and then give you the strongest and most then give you the strongest and most then give you the strongest and most elegant study to support my claim that's elegant study to support my claim that's elegant study to support my claim that's the shift I think I'm I'm just more the shift I think I'm I'm just more the shift I think I'm I'm just more because in because in because in conversation we don't use I'm much more conversation we don't use I'm much more conversation we don't use I'm much more interested in The rhythms of interested in The rhythms of interested in The rhythms of conversation now than I used to be when conversation now than I used to be when conversation now than I used to be when I'm talking to you about I'm talking to you about I'm talking to you about this um if I can establish my this um if I can establish my this um if I can establish my credibility as a as a um uh on a credibility as a as a um uh on a credibility as a as a um uh on a particular subject I don't need to spend particular subject I don't need to spend particular subject I don't need to spend half an hour combing through the half an hour combing through the half an hour combing through the evidence I can say you know Carrie I've evidence I can say you know Carrie I've evidence I can say you know Carrie I've looked at the evidence here's an example looked at the evidence here's an example looked at the evidence here's an example of what many people believe and then of what many people believe and then of what many people believe and then tell you a story and that's much more tell you a story and that's much more tell you a story and that's much more likely I think to resonate with you um likely I think to resonate with you um likely I think to resonate with you um so that's been a big I think when I when so that's been a big I think when I when so that's been a big I think when I when I went went back and looked at the I went went back and looked at the I went went back and looked at the original Tipping Point I was like the original Tipping Point I was like the original Tipping Point I was like the balance is all off it's not the way I balance is all off it's not the way I balance is all off it's not the way I would write the book today is that an would write the book today is that an would write the book today is that an evolution in you or an evolution because evolution in you or an evolution because evolution in you or an evolution because a lot has changed in 25 years and our a lot has changed in 25 years and our a lot has changed in 25 years and our attention span collectively or mix of attention span collectively or mix of attention span collectively or mix of both or something both or something both or something else I think it's an evolution in my else I think it's an evolution in my else I think it's an evolution in my understanding understanding understanding of um how to reach of um how to reach of um how to reach people uh you know at a certain point I

people uh you know at a certain point I people uh you know at a certain point I got much more got much more got much more interested you know I would always joke interested you know I would always joke interested you know I would always joke with my dad who was a with my dad who was a with my dad who was a mathematician a a theoretical mathematician a a theoretical mathematician a a theoretical mathematician and I would go on Amazon mathematician and I would go on Amazon mathematician and I would go on Amazon and I would see what ranking his books and I would see what ranking his books and I would see what ranking his books were he wrote These incredibly were he wrote These incredibly were he wrote These incredibly complex books that were translated into complex books that were translated into complex books that were translated into like Chinese and Russian and they would like Chinese and Russian and they would like Chinese and Russian and they would be you know they would be 20 they' be be you know they would be 20 they' be be you know they would be 20 they' be ranked 20 millionth on Amazon they would ranked 20 millionth on Amazon they would ranked 20 millionth on Amazon they would sell like 25 copies a year but it would sell like 25 copies a year but it would sell like 25 copies a year but it would be the be the be the 25 biggest people in his field right it 25 biggest people in his field right it 25 biggest people in his field right it would be like the 25 Geniuses who could would be like the 25 Geniuses who could would be like the 25 Geniuses who could understand what that's who he sold and understand what that's who he sold and understand what that's who he sold and so he wrote his books for an audience of so he wrote his books for an audience of so he wrote his books for an audience of whatever 50 people year that's who went whatever 50 people year that's who went whatever 50 people year that's who went to his conferences that's who could to his conferences that's who could to his conferences that's who could speak his language and that's one very speak his language and that's one very speak his language and that's one very legitimate by the way an extraordinary legitimate by the way an extraordinary legitimate by the way an extraordinary amount of what is powerful and important amount of what is powerful and important amount of what is powerful and important in the world is written for a narrow in the world is written for a narrow in the world is written for a narrow audience when your brain surgeon writes audience when your brain surgeon writes audience when your brain surgeon writes about a breakthrough in treating brain about a breakthrough in treating brain about a breakthrough in treating brain surgery that will save a zillion lives surgery that will save a zillion lives surgery that will save a zillion lives they write that up for a benefit of you they write that up for a benefit of you they write that up for a benefit of you know a couple hundred people in their know a couple hundred people in their know a couple hundred people in their field right that's the way we wanted to field right that's the way we wanted to field right that's the way we wanted to be we do not want like that's I don't be we do not want like that's I don't be we do not want like that's I don't mean to diss that in any way but I began mean to diss that in any way but I began mean to diss that in any way but I began to realize that's not the world I want to realize that's not the world I want to realize that's not the world I want to inhabit I I really do want to reach to inhabit I I really do want to reach to inhabit I I really do want to reach as many people as I can and so I want to as many people as I can and so I want to as many people as I can and so I want to I've systematically tried to dismantle I've systematically tried to dismantle I've systematically tried to dismantle all the barriers to all the barriers to all the barriers to the uh to not a mass audience but I want

the uh to not a mass audience but I want the uh to not a mass audience but I want anyone who's curious and educated anyone who's curious and educated anyone who's curious and educated reasonably educated to be interested in reasonably educated to be interested in reasonably educated to be interested in my books and that's I and anything that my books and that's I and anything that my books and that's I and anything that stands in the way of that I think has to stands in the way of that I think has to stands in the way of that I think has to be reexamined and be reexamined and be reexamined and um um um removed I think it's it's really removed I think it's it's really removed I think it's it's really interesting because it was gripping and interesting because it was gripping and interesting because it was gripping and you're right I mean I've seen the you're right I mean I've seen the you're right I mean I've seen the evolution I've read most of your books evolution I've read most of your books evolution I've read most of your books if not all of them I think most and you if not all of them I think most and you if not all of them I think most and you do spend a lot of time on a story and do spend a lot of time on a story and do spend a lot of time on a story and you might spend 3ars of a chapter just you might spend 3ars of a chapter just you might spend 3ars of a chapter just sort of explaining what it was like in sort of explaining what it was like in sort of explaining what it was like in popper Grove or the Jewish community in popper Grove or the Jewish community in popper Grove or the Jewish community in La following the second 1960s I guess La following the second 1960s I guess La following the second 1960s I guess you kind of pick it up or the whole you kind of pick it up or the whole you kind of pick it up or the whole opioid crisis story through the lens of opioid crisis story through the lens of opioid crisis story through the lens of one or two people or one or two people or one or two people or fascinatingly uh the the the grafting fascinatingly uh the the the grafting fascinatingly uh the the the grafting Corruption of South Florida Miami after Corruption of South Florida Miami after Corruption of South Florida Miami after the 1970s you're you're not in South the 1970s you're you're not in South the 1970s you're you're not in South Florida are you car oh I'm not no I'm Florida are you car oh I'm not no I'm Florida are you car oh I'm not no I'm north of Toronto so I'm okay I'm okay north of Toronto so I'm okay I'm okay north of Toronto so I'm okay I'm okay I'm like I got friends leading churches I'm like I got friends leading churches I'm like I got friends leading churches there that would be really interesting there that would be really interesting there that would be really interesting no lot lots of Canadians are in South no lot lots of Canadians are in South no lot lots of Canadians are in South Florida that's why I ask I I Florida that's why I ask I I Florida that's why I ask I I true no you know so it but I'm thinking true no you know so it but I'm thinking true no you know so it but I'm thinking about it because you have so many about it because you have so many about it because you have so many preachers and communicators listening preachers and communicators listening preachers and communicators listening here one of the things that's been here one of the things that's been here one of the things that's been fascinating to me is you know the world fascinating to me is you know the world fascinating to me is you know the world is getting shallower more superficial is getting shallower more superficial is getting shallower more superficial quick bites Tik toks you know quick quick bites Tik toks you know quick quick bites Tik toks you know quick videos lots of views Etc and I think videos lots of views Etc and I think videos lots of views Etc and I think there I'm trying to think through what there I'm trying to think through what there I'm trying to think through what does it look like to Zig when everybody

does it look like to Zig when everybody does it look like to Zig when everybody else is zagging how do you go deeper else is zagging how do you go deeper else is zagging how do you go deeper when the world is getting shallower and when the world is getting shallower and when the world is getting shallower and I love the idea of because we are human I love the idea of because we are human I love the idea of because we are human beings you know for thousands of years beings you know for thousands of years beings you know for thousands of years we've sat around campfires listening to we've sat around campfires listening to we've sat around campfires listening to stories we're entangled in people's stories we're entangled in people's stories we're entangled in people's lives so that idea of a single story lives so that idea of a single story lives so that idea of a single story framing a narrative seems really framing a narrative seems really framing a narrative seems really compelling in the right direction to me compelling in the right direction to me compelling in the right direction to me any further thoughts on that or advice any further thoughts on that or advice any further thoughts on that or advice to communicators on because you to communicators on because you to communicators on because you mentioned a few times you really want to mentioned a few times you really want to mentioned a few times you really want to reach people and you think this is a reach people and you think this is a reach people and you think this is a more powerful way than stats and graphs more powerful way than stats and graphs more powerful way than stats and graphs and data Etc well I think one is I think and data Etc well I think one is I think and data Etc well I think one is I think that we have um uh in some ways that we have um uh in some ways that we have um uh in some ways prematurely buried the story um you know prematurely buried the story um you know prematurely buried the story um you know there for the longest people said oh you there for the longest people said oh you there for the longest people said oh you know our attention spans are getting know our attention spans are getting know our attention spans are getting shorter and I I don't I don't buy that I shorter and I I don't I don't buy that I shorter and I I don't I don't buy that I think what's happened is that things think what's happened is that things think what's happened is that things that can be shortened have been that can be shortened have been that can be shortened have been shortened um you know I have discovered shortened um you know I have discovered shortened um you know I have discovered that I'm a huge basketball fan I don't that I'm a huge basketball fan I don't that I'm a huge basketball fan I don't need to watch 82 basketball games a year need to watch 82 basketball games a year need to watch 82 basketball games a year to be a basketball fan I can watch to be a basketball fan I can watch to be a basketball fan I can watch highlights and then tune in on crucial highlights and then tune in on crucial highlights and then tune in on crucial games during the season and the playoffs games during the season and the playoffs games during the season and the playoffs right so is that evidence that my right so is that evidence that my right so is that evidence that my attention span is shorter no it's attention span is shorter no it's attention span is shorter no it's evidence of me understanding that what evidence of me understanding that what evidence of me understanding that what it means for me to be a basketball fan it means for me to be a basketball fan it means for me to be a basketball fan means I don't have I don't need 100% means I don't have I don't need 100% means I don't have I don't need 100% participation right some people do I I participation right some people do I I participation right some people do I I don't but at the same time you know I don't but at the same time you know I don't but at the same time you know I just finished uh watching uh that Apple

just finished uh watching uh that Apple just finished uh watching uh that Apple TV series Presumed Innocent of which I TV series Presumed Innocent of which I TV series Presumed Innocent of which I have many complicated feelings um but have many complicated feelings um but have many complicated feelings um but you know it's what was it Eight Episodes you know it's what was it Eight Episodes you know it's what was it Eight Episodes of roughly an hour each I spent eight of roughly an hour each I spent eight of roughly an hour each I spent eight hours of my life watching that show by hours of my life watching that show by hours of my life watching that show by the way I don't have eight hours I will the way I don't have eight hours I will the way I don't have eight hours I will point out no I suspect not a lot of point out no I suspect not a lot of point out no I suspect not a lot of people but I still spent eight hours people but I still spent eight hours people but I still spent eight hours watch now does is my attention span watch now does is my attention span watch now does is my attention span getting shorter no I I I just I just I getting shorter no I I I just I just I getting shorter no I I I just I just I just invested an enormous chunk of time just invested an enormous chunk of time just invested an enormous chunk of time in a story that was I mean gripping in in a story that was I mean gripping in in a story that was I mean gripping in parts and other parts not terribly parts and other parts not terribly parts and other parts not terribly interesting but it did hold me and it interesting but it did hold me and it interesting but it did hold me and it took me all the way to the end and I took me all the way to the end and I took me all the way to the end and I think what's maybe a better way of think what's maybe a better way of think what's maybe a better way of saying that it's not that our attention saying that it's not that our attention saying that it's not that our attention spans have gotten shorter it's that spans have gotten shorter it's that spans have gotten shorter it's that maybe the bar has been raised a little maybe the bar has been raised a little maybe the bar has been raised a little we will devote attention to something we will devote attention to something we will devote attention to something that compels us that move moves us that that compels us that move moves us that that compels us that move moves us that has meaning um and I think that's that's has meaning um and I think that's that's has meaning um and I think that's that's the difference you just have to try you the difference you just have to try you the difference you just have to try you have to work a little harder to to get have to work a little harder to to get have to work a little harder to to get people's attention but they're perfectly people's attention but they're perfectly people's attention but they're perfectly willing to give it to you you know what willing to give it to you you know what willing to give it to you you know what was the the single most successful was the the single most successful was the the single most successful literary phenomenon of the last 25 years literary phenomenon of the last 25 years literary phenomenon of the last 25 years is Harry Potter yes right those were is Harry Potter yes right those were is Harry Potter yes right those were enormous books I can't I'm my daughters enormous books I can't I'm my daughters enormous books I can't I'm my daughters are not quite of the age to read that are not quite of the age to read that are not quite of the age to read that yet I can't wait till they are they're yet I can't wait till they are they're yet I can't wait till they are they're huge that's like I have I have months huge that's like I have I have months huge that's like I have I have months and months and months of reading Harry and months and months of reading Harry and months and months of reading Harry Potter to my kids ahead of me right Potter to my kids ahead of me right Potter to my kids ahead of me right that's that's not a that's not a culture that's that's not a that's not a culture that's that's not a that's not a culture with an attention span crisis it's a

with an attention span crisis it's a with an attention span crisis it's a culture that responds to Great culture that responds to Great culture that responds to Great storytelling that is that is impatient storytelling that is that is impatient storytelling that is that is impatient with lousy storytelling but not that's with lousy storytelling but not that's with lousy storytelling but not that's given up its attention span given up its attention span given up its attention span that's a beautiful call out I'm really that's a beautiful call out I'm really that's a beautiful call out I'm really going to camp on those words and think going to camp on those words and think going to camp on those words and think about that as I get ready to tackle my about that as I get ready to tackle my about that as I get ready to tackle my next book I think you raise some really next book I think you raise some really next book I think you raise some really good points can you can you take us into good points can you can you take us into good points can you can you take us into I mean seven or eight books after 25 I mean seven or eight books after 25 I mean seven or eight books after 25 years your books take a lot of research years your books take a lot of research years your books take a lot of research can you walk us through the writing can you walk us through the writing can you walk us through the writing process and the research process what process and the research process what process and the research process what that looks like for you any habits that looks like for you any habits that looks like for you any habits disciplines approaches that you follow disciplines approaches that you follow disciplines approaches that you follow these days I I think this has changed a these days I I think this has changed a these days I I think this has changed a little bit write as I go along as little bit write as I go along as little bit write as I go along as opposed to doing all the research and opposed to doing all the research and opposed to doing all the research and then writing it up I find it much more then writing it up I find it much more then writing it up I find it much more useful I learn something I start writing useful I learn something I start writing useful I learn something I start writing the chapter and then I keep adding the the chapter and then I keep adding the the chapter and then I keep adding the more I learn and each each revision more I learn and each each revision more I learn and each each revision usually includes adding a usually includes adding a usually includes adding a whole bunch of new material and I find whole bunch of new material and I find whole bunch of new material and I find that's a much more the more iterative that's a much more the more iterative that's a much more the more iterative you can make the writing process I think you can make the writing process I think you can make the writing process I think the better the writing process is and the better the writing process is and the better the writing process is and the less intimidating it is the biggest the less intimidating it is the biggest the less intimidating it is the biggest issue with with starting a book is that issue with with starting a book is that issue with with starting a book is that you think I have to write whatever it is you think I have to write whatever it is you think I have to write whatever it is 880,000 words and you just think oh I 880,000 words and you just think oh I 880,000 words and you just think oh I can't do that right it seems too can't do that right it seems too can't do that right it seems too overwhelming but if you can understand overwhelming but if you can understand overwhelming but if you can understand that no no no an 80,000 word book is a that no no no an 80,000 word book is a that no no no an 80,000 word book is a book written in thousand-word book written in thousand-word book written in thousand-word increments um over the course of a year increments um over the course of a year increments um over the course of a year and a half two years three years and a half two years three years and a half two years three years whatever then you understand oh actually

whatever then you understand oh actually whatever then you understand oh actually it's quite manageable and even a chapter it's quite manageable and even a chapter it's quite manageable and even a chapter a nice long chapter actually starts as a a nice long chapter actually starts as a a nice long chapter actually starts as a very short chapter and then you talk to very short chapter and then you talk to very short chapter and then you talk to someone else and you go back and you someone else and you go back and you someone else and you go back and you rewrite what you learned and it gets you rewrite what you learned and it gets you rewrite what you learned and it gets you in the habit of in the habit of in the habit of also understanding that where you start also understanding that where you start also understanding that where you start a chapter is not necessarily where you a chapter is not necessarily where you a chapter is not necessarily where you end up end up end up you if you start something you should I you if you start something you should I you if you start something you should I love the idea of I've written half the love the idea of I've written half the love the idea of I've written half the chapter and then I changed my chapter and then I changed my chapter and then I changed my mind and I realize oh actually no no mind and I realize oh actually no no mind and I realize oh actually no no this is a story about something else or this is a story about something else or this is a story about something else or the conclusion I drew is premature or uh the conclusion I drew is premature or uh the conclusion I drew is premature or uh you know that and that's when I think you know that and that's when I think you know that and that's when I think stories start to get complex when you stories start to get complex when you stories start to get complex when you but that so I I try to kind of lower the but that so I I try to kind of lower the but that so I I try to kind of lower the stakes in other words in the writing and stakes in other words in the writing and stakes in other words in the writing and nibble as opposed to take big gulps well nibble as opposed to take big gulps well nibble as opposed to take big gulps well that makes it a lot more doable and it's that makes it a lot more doable and it's that makes it a lot more doable and it's interesting you know in in law school I interesting you know in in law school I interesting you know in in law school I studied inductive versus deductive studied inductive versus deductive studied inductive versus deductive reasoning you're very inductive it's reasoning you're very inductive it's reasoning you're very inductive it's like we're all on this journey and we like we're all on this journey and we like we're all on this journey and we will get to the point at the end but it will get to the point at the end but it will get to the point at the end but it sounds like that's what your writing and sounds like that's what your writing and sounds like that's what your writing and research process is as well right you research process is as well right you research process is as well right you begin with a question and then it's a begin with a question and then it's a begin with a question and then it's a quest to try to figure out what exactly quest to try to figure out what exactly quest to try to figure out what exactly is happening here yeah we did uh at is happening here yeah we did uh at is happening here yeah we did uh at Pushkin we did this podcast series me Pushkin we did this podcast series me Pushkin we did this podcast series me and this uh one of my colleagues Bend at and this uh one of my colleagues Bend at and this uh one of my colleagues Bend at da halfrey on the 1936 Olympics and it da halfrey on the 1936 Olympics and it da halfrey on the 1936 Olympics and it was a perfect example of this was a perfect example of this was a perfect example of this because it's ended up being Nine because it's ended up being Nine because it's ended up being Nine episodes we started without a plan none episodes we started without a plan none episodes we started without a plan none we sat down and we said we' like to say

we sat down and we said we' like to say we sat down and we said we' like to say something interesting about the 36 something interesting about the 36 something interesting about the 36 Olympics and we just both started Olympics and we just both started Olympics and we just both started reading and then I said I think we reading and then I said I think we reading and then I said I think we should start with this story and then should start with this story and then should start with this story and then Ben was like I don't understand what Ben was like I don't understand what Ben was like I don't understand what that has to do with and I was like I that has to do with and I was like I that has to do with and I was like I don't know let's just start here and we don't know let's just start here and we don't know let's just start here and we did and then he came back with this he did and then he came back with this he did and then he came back with this he wanted to do something on Jesse Owens he wanted to do something on Jesse Owens he wanted to do something on Jesse Owens he told me his idea and I quietly inside told me his idea and I quietly inside told me his idea and I quietly inside said that's that's the dumbest said that's that's the dumbest said that's that's the dumbest idea I was like you know my suspicion idea I was like you know my suspicion idea I was like you know my suspicion about Ben was Ben goes off on tangents about Ben was Ben goes off on tangents about Ben was Ben goes off on tangents and they're really like you know they're and they're really like you know they're and they're really like you know they're for a tiny tiny tiny tiny audience and I for a tiny tiny tiny tiny audience and I for a tiny tiny tiny tiny audience and I was like oh Ben so he goes off and and was like oh Ben so he goes off and and was like oh Ben so he goes off and and it comes back and it's the greatest it comes back and it's the greatest it comes back and it's the greatest thing in the whole series so the whole thing in the whole series so the whole thing in the whole series so the whole point is like and then I realize why why point is like and then I realize why why point is like and then I realize why why even bother trying to figure it out even bother trying to figure it out even bother trying to figure it out beforehand I didn't know what he was beforehand I didn't know what he was beforehand I didn't know what he was going to do with the material I'm not going to do with the material I'm not going to do with the material I'm not even sure he did he had this idea and he even sure he did he had this idea and he even sure he did he had this idea and he wanted to develop it and what I really wanted to develop it and what I really wanted to develop it and what I really needed to do was just to say you know needed to do was just to say you know needed to do was just to say you know like just to like just to like just to say you know go for it and how can I say you know go for it and how can I say you know go for it and how can I help keep my mind open and let's go on help keep my mind open and let's go on help keep my mind open and let's go on this journey and then I came back and this journey and then I came back and this journey and then I came back and said let's go to Alabama and he said why said let's go to Alabama and he said why said let's go to Alabama and he said why are we going to Alabama and I said let's are we going to Alabama and I said let's are we going to Alabama and I said let's find out and it turns out you know that find out and it turns out you know that find out and it turns out you know that was a great it's a great last episode of was a great it's a great last episode of was a great it's a great last episode of the whole series but that kind of more the whole series but that kind of more the whole series but that kind of more and more I've fallen in love with that and more I've fallen in love with that and more I've fallen in love with that kind of um Adventure storytelling well kind of um Adventure storytelling well kind of um Adventure storytelling well you don't you know my my dad when we you don't you know my my dad when we you don't you know my my dad when we used to go uh I was reminded of this and used to go uh I was reminded of this and used to go uh I was reminded of this and I this morning I was thinking about this

I this morning I was thinking about this I this morning I was thinking about this when my when I was a kid my dad we would when my when I was a kid my dad we would when my when I was a kid my dad we would go for family drives and my father this go for family drives and my father this go for family drives and my father this before obviously Google Maps and ways before obviously Google Maps and ways before obviously Google Maps and ways and everything he never looked at a map and everything he never looked at a map and everything he never looked at a map and he loved getting lost and you wouldd and he loved getting lost and you wouldd and he loved getting lost and you wouldd always look at us and he would say you always look at us and he would say you always look at us and he would say you know I'm like 12 years old in the know I'm like 12 years old in the know I'm like 12 years old in the passenger seat and he would say I'm passenger seat and he would say I'm passenger seat and he would say I'm gonna follow my nose and what he meant gonna follow my nose and what he meant gonna follow my nose and what he meant was let's figure it out I mean we're in was let's figure it out I mean we're in was let's figure it out I mean we're in Southern Ontario like you can't get Southern Ontario like you can't get Southern Ontario like you can't get epically lost right you're eventually epically lost right you're eventually epically lost right you're eventually gonna hit a great lake you're hit a gonna hit a great lake you're hit a gonna hit a great lake you're hit a great lake you know there's a limit but great lake you know there's a limit but great lake you know there's a limit but he even he would do this in Europe I he even he would do this in Europe I he even he would do this in Europe I mean he would do this anyway but his mean he would do this anyway but his mean he would do this anyway but his point was you can't like we're not in point was you can't like we're not in point was you can't like we're not in the we're not in the Amazon like a wrong the we're not in the Amazon like a wrong the we're not in the Amazon like a wrong turn is not gonna we can figure this out turn is not gonna we can figure this out turn is not gonna we can figure this out and by the way he began to communicate and by the way he began to communicate and by the way he began to communicate to me how much fun it was to figure it to me how much fun it was to figure it to me how much fun it was to figure it out that was the fun right and that's out that was the fun right and that's out that was the fun right and that's that I realized that a lot of my writing that I realized that a lot of my writing that I realized that a lot of my writing is an attempt to unconsciously capture is an attempt to unconsciously capture is an attempt to unconsciously capture that feeling of Mischief that my father that feeling of Mischief that my father that feeling of Mischief that my father had about I don't know where we're going had about I don't know where we're going had about I don't know where we're going I don't have a map your mother may be I don't have a map your mother may be I don't have a map your mother may be complaining right now but like complaining right now but like complaining right now but like let's just figure it out right let's um let's just figure it out right let's um let's just figure it out right let's um and that is you know that's a delightful and that is you know that's a delightful and that is you know that's a delightful feeling you know when you've bought into feeling you know when you've bought into feeling you know when you've bought into that it is you know one one of the uh that it is you know one one of the uh that it is you know one one of the uh you you did some experimenting too with you you did some experimenting too with you you did some experimenting too with your last audio book which was really an your last audio book which was really an your last audio book which was really an autobiography of Paul Simon and what autobiography of Paul Simon and what autobiography of Paul Simon and what struck me about that my wife and I struck me about that my wife and I struck me about that my wife and I listened to it in the car over you know

listened to it in the car over you know listened to it in the car over you know multiple weeks months when we were multiple weeks months when we were multiple weeks months when we were together what got me about that was it together what got me about that was it together what got me about that was it almost felt like like the original almost felt like like the original almost felt like like the original Source tapes that you would use for an Source tapes that you would use for an Source tapes that you would use for an autobiography or a biography of Paul autobiography or a biography of Paul autobiography or a biography of Paul Simon but but it was actually that Simon but but it was actually that Simon but but it was actually that exploring sitting in his room having a exploring sitting in his room having a exploring sitting in his room having a conversation I think it was you and the conversation I think it was you and the conversation I think it was you and the producer and Paul Simon just kind of producer and Paul Simon just kind of producer and Paul Simon just kind of going through his life going through his going through his life going through his going through his life going through his career with the odd editorial comment career with the odd editorial comment career with the odd editorial comment here or there that became the book right here or there that became the book right here or there that became the book right and it was completely multimedia do you and it was completely multimedia do you and it was completely multimedia do you want to talk about that approach because want to talk about that approach because want to talk about that approach because I think there's promise in it it was I think there's promise in it it was I think there's promise in it it was almost like a long long long Paul Simon almost like a long long long Paul Simon almost like a long long long Paul Simon podcast that became the book yeah so I podcast that became the book yeah so I podcast that became the book yeah so I this is something I've fallen in love this is something I've fallen in love this is something I've fallen in love with recently which is I've done it more with recently which is I've done it more with recently which is I've done it more since doing that Paul Simon book The the since doing that Paul Simon book The the since doing that Paul Simon book The the trick there was normally when you call trick there was normally when you call trick there was normally when you call up a celebrity and you say I want to do up a celebrity and you say I want to do up a celebrity and you say I want to do something on they say the publicist says something on they say the publicist says something on they say the publicist says okay you've got 45 minutes right that's okay you've got 45 minutes right that's okay you've got 45 minutes right that's nine times out of 10 that's what you get nine times out of 10 that's what you get nine times out of 10 that's what you get or 99 times out of 100 yeah I went to or 99 times out of 100 yeah I went to or 99 times out of 100 yeah I went to Paul and I he he said well how long do Paul and I he he said well how long do Paul and I he he said well how long do you how many times you know how much you how many times you know how much you how many times you know how much time do you need and I said I don't know time do you need and I said I don't know time do you need and I said I don't know and to my utter surprise and amazement and to my utter surprise and amazement and to my utter surprise and amazement he said okay and we would meet and just he said okay and we would meet and just he said okay and we would meet and just talk and then he would say when are we talk and then he would say when are we talk and then he would say when are we meeting again and I would do a little meeting again and I would do a little meeting again and I would do a little happy dance in the car and I would say happy dance in the car and I would say happy dance in the car and I would say okay and I would give him a date and okay and I would give him a date and okay and I would give him a date and we'd go back and he would you know we we'd go back and he would you know we we'd go back and he would you know we started meeting him he was has a house started meeting him he was has a house started meeting him he was has a house in Hawaii and we went to Hawaii we just

in Hawaii and we went to Hawaii we just in Hawaii and we went to Hawaii we just met every day in Hawaii for and then he met every day in Hawaii for and then he met every day in Hawaii for and then he came back and he was in Connecticut and came back and he was in Connecticut and came back and he was in Connecticut and we went once a week to his house in we went once a week to his house in we went once a week to his house in Connecticut and we and then he went to Connecticut and we and then he went to Connecticut and we and then he went to Texas to do some thing and he said you Texas to do some thing and he said you Texas to do some thing and he said you want to come to Texas we can we just want to come to Texas we can we just want to come to Texas we can we just kind of like kept going and the longer kind of like kept going and the longer kind of like kept going and the longer the conversation became the much more the conversation became the much more the conversation became the much more beautiful and useful it became and the beautiful and useful it became and the beautiful and useful it became and the more opportunities open themselves up more opportunities open themselves up more opportunities open themselves up and I realized one of the huge mistakes and I realized one of the huge mistakes and I realized one of the huge mistakes that journalists make of necessity that journalists make of necessity that journalists make of necessity because we can't get access to people because we can't get access to people because we can't get access to people the way we want to is that we never the way we want to is that we never the way we want to is that we never really get below the surface and with really get below the surface and with really get below the surface and with Paul because we end up Bruce and I ended Paul because we end up Bruce and I ended Paul because we end up Bruce and I ended up talking to him for 40 hours actually up talking to him for 40 hours actually up talking to him for 40 hours actually more than 40 hours I got because I did more than 40 hours I got because I did more than 40 hours I got because I did an extra four hours at the end 44 hours an extra four hours at the end 44 hours an extra four hours at the end 44 hours and that's an enormous amount of tape and that's an enormous amount of tape and that's an enormous amount of tape that is and then that became a raw that is and then that became a raw that is and then that became a raw material for all the as you say as we material for all the as you say as we material for all the as you say as we were recording those I was in my back of were recording those I was in my back of were recording those I was in my back of my mind kind of ruminating on it and all my mind kind of ruminating on it and all my mind kind of ruminating on it and all of those chapters that we do are the of those chapters that we do are the of those chapters that we do are the kind of me kind of riffing on kind of me kind of riffing on kind of me kind of riffing on the conversations that we had you know the conversations that we had you know the conversations that we had you know these moments they just there were just these moments they just there were just these moments they just there were just these moments that were just so these moments that were just so these moments that were just so interesting and so kind of interesting and so kind of interesting and so kind of thought-provoking you know when we thought-provoking you know when we thought-provoking you know when we realized how invested he was by the realized how invested he was by the realized how invested he was by the music in the music he was listening to music in the music he was listening to music in the music he was listening to in his early teens and how incredibly in his early teens and how incredibly in his early teens and how incredibly formative growing up in Queens in the formative growing up in Queens in the formative growing up in Queens in the 50s was and that there a whole chapter 50s was and that there a whole chapter 50s was and that there a whole chapter on the gift of Queens it's just about

on the gift of Queens it's just about on the gift of Queens it's just about like all right so I went home and I was like all right so I went home and I was like all right so I went home and I was like all right so let's figure out like like all right so let's figure out like like all right so let's figure out like what was going on in Queens in 1950 if what was going on in Queens in 1950 if what was going on in Queens in 1950 if you were a kid playing on the street you were a kid playing on the street you were a kid playing on the street what music did you hear and if you were what music did you hear and if you were what music did you hear and if you were a musically minded kid who was actively a musically minded kid who was actively a musically minded kid who was actively learning from what you were listening to learning from what you were listening to learning from what you were listening to How did that influence you it's very How did that influence you it's very How did that influence you it's very different different different from growing up as a kid in Appalachia from growing up as a kid in Appalachia from growing up as a kid in Appalachia or growing up in as a kid in Nova Scotia or growing up in as a kid in Nova Scotia or growing up in as a kid in Nova Scotia or growing up as a kid in you know you or growing up as a kid in you know you or growing up as a kid in you know you you can think of all kinds of different you can think of all kinds of different you can think of all kinds of different places that would have an influence New places that would have an influence New places that would have an influence New Orleans or that was when I realized that Orleans or that was when I realized that Orleans or that was when I realized that was something specific and beautiful was something specific and beautiful was something specific and beautiful about about about queens that allowed me to write a queens that allowed me to write a queens that allowed me to write a chapter around his memories of being a chapter around his memories of being a chapter around his memories of being a child um same thing that there's a lot child um same thing that there's a lot child um same thing that there's a lot about there about his dad you know by about there about his dad you know by about there about his dad you know by our 35 of the 40 hours we realized you our 35 of the 40 hours we realized you our 35 of the 40 hours we realized you know he's talking a lot about his dad know he's talking a lot about his dad know he's talking a lot about his dad this is a man in his late 70s and his this is a man in his late 70s and his this is a man in his late 70s and his father is still with him um which is father is still with him um which is father is still with him um which is moving to me because I had just lost my moving to me because I had just lost my moving to me because I had just lost my own father yeah and I realized that's own father yeah and I realized that's own father yeah and I realized that's true true true that your parents I had this great fear that your parents I had this great fear that your parents I had this great fear when my dad died that he would when my dad died that he would when my dad died that he would leave you know and I realized that he leave you know and I realized that he leave you know and I realized that he doesn't leave and you can keep your doesn't leave and you can keep your doesn't leave and you can keep your loved ones alive that's what grief is is loved ones alive that's what grief is is loved ones alive that's what grief is is your way of keeping them alive wow Paul your way of keeping them alive wow Paul your way of keeping them alive wow Paul was still grieving about his father even was still grieving about his father even was still grieving about his father even though his father had been dead for 30 though his father had been dead for 30 though his father had been dead for 30 years and it was coming up in his music years and it was coming up in his music years and it was coming up in his music in a way that not even he was conscious in a way that not even he was conscious in a way that not even he was conscious of and then we only got that because of and then we only got that because of and then we only got that because we're sitting there listening to him and

we're sitting there listening to him and we're sitting there listening to him and we're an hour 35 like there is so much we're an hour 35 like there is so much we're an hour 35 like there is so much about his dad right so much about he about his dad right so much about he about his dad right so much about he would bring up his dad and he would he's would bring up his dad and he would he's would bring up his dad and he would he's still fighting in a lovely Way fighting still fighting in a lovely Way fighting still fighting in a lovely Way fighting with his father who was a genius musical with his father who was a genius musical with his father who was a genius musical genius among other things clearly his genius among other things clearly his genius among other things clearly his father you know he's in the shadow father you know he's in the shadow father you know he's in the shadow imagine you're a musical genius you're imagine you're a musical genius you're imagine you're a musical genius you're Paul Simon and you grow up in the shadow Paul Simon and you grow up in the shadow Paul Simon and you grow up in the shadow of this kind of you know powerful of this kind of you know powerful of this kind of you know powerful intimidating intellectual figure who is intimidating intellectual figure who is intimidating intellectual figure who is a better musician you think of him as a a better musician you think of him as a a better musician you think of him as a better musician than you will ever be better musician than you will ever be better musician than you will ever be right now that's an interesting Dynamic right now that's an interesting Dynamic right now that's an interesting Dynamic for someone who's the great I think the for someone who's the great I think the for someone who's the great I think the greatest songwriter of the 20th century greatest songwriter of the 20th century greatest songwriter of the 20th century right yes still in the thrall of right yes still in the thrall of right yes still in the thrall of dad trying to respond to his dad measure dad trying to respond to his dad measure dad trying to respond to his dad measure up yeah and still arguing with you know up yeah and still arguing with you know up yeah and still arguing with you know that's like I said that's like so that's like I said that's like so that's like I said that's like so there's a whole I think the best chapter there's a whole I think the best chapter there's a whole I think the best chapter of the book is just it's us getting into of the book is just it's us getting into of the book is just it's us getting into his not in a kind of and I didn't think his not in a kind of and I didn't think his not in a kind of and I didn't think it was a kind of cheap fraan way I it was a kind of cheap fraan way I it was a kind of cheap fraan way I thought it was like an honest way about thought it was like an honest way about thought it was like an honest way about how how how um and this sorry I have so much to say um and this sorry I have so much to say um and this sorry I have so much to say about this but this really interesting about this but this really interesting about this but this really interesting thing that you don't begin to appreciate thing that you don't begin to appreciate thing that you don't begin to appreciate your parents until they're gone like your parents until they're gone like your parents until they're gone like another friend of mine said this to me another friend of mine said this to me another friend of mine said this to me that you know my father died 20 years that you know my father died 20 years that you know my father died 20 years ago I know him better now than I did ago I know him better now than I did ago I know him better now than I did when he was alive I've never forgotten when he was alive I've never forgotten when he was alive I've never forgotten that and I I think of that is so that and I I think of that is so that and I I think of that is so insanely insanely insanely insightful your parents have had a huge insightful your parents have had a huge insightful your parents have had a huge influence on you haven't they your mom influence on you haven't they your mom influence on you haven't they your mom is still with you your dad died and

is still with you your dad died and is still with you your dad died and number of years ago how have they shaped number of years ago how have they shaped number of years ago how have they shaped you as who you've become I realize you as who you've become I realize you as who you've become I realize that's probably 90 minutes 90 days on that's probably 90 minutes 90 days on that's probably 90 minutes 90 days on its own oh yes there many uh well my dad its own oh yes there many uh well my dad its own oh yes there many uh well my dad was someone who was someone who was someone who uh took Delight in the world just I mean uh took Delight in the world just I mean uh took Delight in the world just I mean I think he just I don't think he ever I think he just I don't think he ever I think he just I don't think he ever woke up and woke up and woke up and said said said uh you know I'd rather not be here or uh you know I'd rather not be here or uh you know I'd rather not be here or I'm not looking forward to the day I I'm not looking forward to the day I I'm not looking forward to the day I think everything and I think he knew think everything and I think he knew think everything and I think he knew he had this lovely balance you know he he had this lovely balance you know he he had this lovely balance you know he was a deeply devout Christian and it was a deeply devout Christian and it was a deeply devout Christian and it informed his Sensi sensibility in the informed his Sensi sensibility in the informed his Sensi sensibility in the best possible way he saw everything he best possible way he saw everything he best possible way he saw everything he did as an expression of s of God's did as an expression of s of God's did as an expression of s of God's genius and he loved flowers and he saw genius and he loved flowers and he saw genius and he loved flowers and he saw you know they were beautiful and I think you know they were beautiful and I think you know they were beautiful and I think it fueled his faith that someone created it fueled his faith that someone created it fueled his faith that someone created this thing that is just insanely this thing that is just insanely this thing that is just insanely beautiful and he saw mathematics this beautiful and he saw mathematics this beautiful and he saw mathematics this thing that came out of him sort of thing that came out of him sort of thing that came out of him sort of unbidden as coming from this unbidden as coming from this unbidden as coming from this Supernatural spiritual Force I mean Supernatural spiritual Force I mean Supernatural spiritual Force I mean that's I think that's how he made sense that's I think that's how he made sense that's I think that's how he made sense of it you know that it was that these of it you know that it was that these of it you know that it was that these incredibly elegant he participated in a incredibly elegant he participated in a incredibly elegant he participated in a world of incredible Elegance that's what world of incredible Elegance that's what world of incredible Elegance that's what math was to him um and it was it was I math was to him um and it was it was I math was to him um and it was it was I think it was divine in some ways um for think it was divine in some ways um for think it was divine in some ways um for him um but it just meant his life I mean him um but it just meant his life I mean him um but it just meant his life I mean I think his sort of life was he had

I think his sort of life was he had I think his sort of life was he had his own share of like anyone things he his own share of like anyone things he his own share of like anyone things he worried about and struggles you worried about and struggles you worried about and struggles you know raising a family in Canada in the know raising a family in Canada in the know raising a family in Canada in the 70s when I'm just was reminded he we 70s when I'm just was reminded he we 70s when I'm just was reminded he we built a new house in 1977 and the built a new house in 1977 and the built a new house in 1977 and the interest rate on the house was I think interest rate on the house was I think interest rate on the house was I think it was 20% yeah is that right about it was 20% yeah is that right about it was 20% yeah is that right about right that was about right for that era right that was about right for that era right that was about right for that era I can't even imagine a stress he must I can't even imagine a stress he must I can't even imagine a stress he must have been under Financial my goodness I have been under Financial my goodness I have been under Financial my goodness I know it just kind of like but anyway know it just kind of like but anyway know it just kind of like but anyway like but at the same time that was that like but at the same time that was that like but at the same time that was that idea that you it's possible to find enormous joy you it's possible to find enormous joy in learning and experiencing the world in learning and experiencing the world in learning and experiencing the world um and my my mom is just a kind of um and my my mom is just a kind of um and my my mom is just a kind of incredibly incredibly incredibly empathetic thoughtful person who loves empathetic thoughtful person who loves empathetic thoughtful person who loves to listen to people and that's also been to listen to people and that's also been to listen to people and that's also been an enormously valuable um uh lesson in an enormously valuable um uh lesson in an enormously valuable um uh lesson in my life I love your approach because you my life I love your approach because you my life I love your approach because you know talking about zigging when know talking about zigging when know talking about zigging when everybody else is zagging with the Paul everybody else is zagging with the Paul everybody else is zagging with the Paul Simon biography or also you know the Simon biography or also you know the Simon biography or also you know the podcast series you did on the 1936 podcast series you did on the 1936 podcast series you did on the 1936 Olympics or even this new book Revenge Olympics or even this new book Revenge Olympics or even this new book Revenge at the Tipping Point you can't be on a at the Tipping Point you can't be on a at the Tipping Point you can't be on a super tight deadline it can't be like I super tight deadline it can't be like I super tight deadline it can't be like I have three months to write this book I have three months to write this book I have three months to write this book I have three months so can you talk about have three months so can you talk about have three months so can you talk about you know how you've resisted the you know how you've resisted the you know how you've resisted the Temptation I'm sure you have to hit Temptation I'm sure you have to hit Temptation I'm sure you have to hit deadlines it's a major publisher etc etc deadlines it's a major publisher etc etc deadlines it's a major publisher etc etc but um why that's so valuable and some but um why that's so valuable and some but um why that's so valuable and some of the rhythms in your life that ow for of the rhythms in your life that ow for of the rhythms in your life that ow for that kind of beautiful Meandering that

that kind of beautiful Meandering that that kind of beautiful Meandering that may or may not be may or may not be may or may not be productive well a lot of it is the is productive well a lot of it is the is productive well a lot of it is the is the um benefit of being uh as old as I the um benefit of being uh as old as I the um benefit of being uh as old as I am um when you've been at it this is am um when you've been at it this is am um when you've been at it this is what I didn't understand when I was what I didn't understand when I was what I didn't understand when I was young which is your the sort of store of young which is your the sort of store of young which is your the sort of store of things of things of things of experiences experiences experiences of knowledge that you have just by of knowledge that you have just by of knowledge that you have just by virtue of having been around a while virtue of having been around a while virtue of having been around a while is so great that you can draw on it you is so great that you can draw on it you is so great that you can draw on it you know a lot of my writing is about seeing know a lot of my writing is about seeing know a lot of my writing is about seeing parallels between things and it's easy parallels between things and it's easy parallels between things and it's easy Earth for me to see parallels at my age Earth for me to see parallels at my age Earth for me to see parallels at my age and it was at 25 just because I've and it was at 25 just because I've and it was at 25 just because I've experienced you know so much more in experienced you know so much more in experienced you know so much more in those years you know so like there's a those years you know so like there's a those years you know so like there's a gift it made me a lot you know uh you gift it made me a lot you know uh you gift it made me a lot you know uh you give up a fair a certain number of give up a fair a certain number of give up a fair a certain number of things as you get older but you gain it things as you get older but you gain it things as you get older but you gain it strikes me you gain way much more um and strikes me you gain way much more um and strikes me you gain way much more um and you know that's one of them you have a you know that's one of them you have a you know that's one of them you have a like to go back to that chapter we were like to go back to that chapter we were like to go back to that chapter we were talking about about the talking about about the talking about about the Holocaust um I wouldn't have written Holocaust um I wouldn't have written Holocaust um I wouldn't have written that chapter if I didn't remember which that chapter if I didn't remember which that chapter if I didn't remember which is all about this epic change that is all about this epic change that is all about this epic change that happens in the 70s having lived through happens in the 70s having lived through happens in the 70s having lived through the 70s made me the 70s made me the 70s made me understand that chap made that chapter understand that chap made that chapter understand that chap made that chapter possible it's it just was real to me you possible it's it just was real to me you possible it's it just was real to me you know and I there are kind of when you know and I there are kind of when you know and I there are kind of when you live through something you experience it live through something you experience it live through something you experience it in a way that you cannot if you only in a way that you cannot if you only in a way that you cannot if you only read about it or um experienced it

read about it or um experienced it read about it or um experienced it secondhand um so that's this Fair it secondhand um so that's this Fair it secondhand um so that's this Fair it gives it gives your experiences a kind gives it gives your experiences a kind gives it gives your experiences a kind of of of depth um you know my favorite sports depth um you know my favorite sports depth um you know my favorite sports writer Bill Simmons who's roughly my age writer Bill Simmons who's roughly my age writer Bill Simmons who's roughly my age um he's very historically minded when he um he's very historically minded when he um he's very historically minded when he talks about basketball for example and talks about basketball for example and talks about basketball for example and so he's constantly saying you so he's constantly saying you so he's constantly saying you know this is the best thing you know know this is the best thing you know know this is the best thing you know blah blah since the 87 NBA finals and blah blah since the 87 NBA finals and blah blah since the 87 NBA finals and like you know it's like it's funny in like you know it's like it's funny in like you know it's like it's funny in some sense that he's going back 40 years some sense that he's going back 40 years some sense that he's going back 40 years whatever it is but it's also really whatever it is but it's also really whatever it is but it's also really really useful because what he's saying really useful because what he's saying really useful because what he's saying is you can sit back and say um wow is you can sit back and say um wow is you can sit back and say um wow LeBron James is a great player but it's LeBron James is a great player but it's LeBron James is a great player but it's meaning it's not meaningful unless you meaning it's not meaningful unless you meaning it's not meaningful unless you have some understanding of the people have some understanding of the people have some understanding of the people who came before him right you can say who came before him right you can say who came before him right you can say well okay so I I remember Magic Johnson well okay so I I remember Magic Johnson well okay so I I remember Magic Johnson is he better than magic I remember is he better than magic I remember is he better than magic I remember Michael Jordan in his prime I have a Michael Jordan in his prime I have a Michael Jordan in his prime I have a point of comparison and you know it just point of comparison and you know it just point of comparison and you know it just allows you to have some kind of allows you to have some kind of allows you to have some kind of so that's so that's so that's been just an enormous benefit um of of been just an enormous benefit um of of been just an enormous benefit um of of of kind of having some years under my of kind of having some years under my of kind of having some years under my belt so if you had advice to Young belt so if you had advice to Young belt so if you had advice to Young Writers we have a lot of young leaders Writers we have a lot of young leaders Writers we have a lot of young leaders listening some of whom want to write or listening some of whom want to write or listening some of whom want to write or they want to make a contribution Etc um they want to make a contribution Etc um they want to make a contribution Etc um any advice to them on what to really pay any advice to them on what to really pay any advice to them on what to really pay attention to especially trying to break attention to especially trying to break attention to especially trying to break out in a culture at a market like today out in a culture at a market like today out in a culture at a market like today well one is patience you know I well one is patience you know I well one is patience you know I didn't write didn't write didn't write my first book Tipping Point was written my first book Tipping Point was written my first book Tipping Point was written I wrote it in my late 30s published

I wrote it in my late 30s published I wrote it in my late 30s published it basically on my uh when I was yeah my it basically on my uh when I was yeah my it basically on my uh when I was yeah my late 30s um which is you know probably late 30s um which is you know probably late 30s um which is you know probably later than most people I didn't achieve later than most people I didn't achieve later than most people I didn't achieve real success as a writer till I was in real success as a writer till I was in real success as a writer till I was in my 40s um which is probably later than my 40s um which is probably later than my 40s um which is probably later than most people would I think most people would I think most people would I think imagine um uh success to come and I imagine um uh success to come and I imagine um uh success to come and I think that was that's expectation number think that was that's expectation number think that was that's expectation number one one is I think maybe people are in one one is I think maybe people are in one one is I think maybe people are in too much of a hurry that you um too much of a hurry that you um too much of a hurry that you um particularly writing a book which is particularly writing a book which is particularly writing a book which is such a kind of enormous undertaking it's such a kind of enormous undertaking it's such a kind of enormous undertaking it's just so much easier when you have more just so much easier when you have more just so much easier when you have more experiences under your belt and more so experiences under your belt and more so experiences under your belt and more so that's patience would be one thing um that's patience would be one thing um that's patience would be one thing um and two I think I realized in retrospect and two I think I realized in retrospect and two I think I realized in retrospect I spent a lot of time in my 20s filling I spent a lot of time in my 20s filling I spent a lot of time in my 20s filling the tank of with the experiences that I the tank of with the experiences that I the tank of with the experiences that I could later draw on and I think that's could later draw on and I think that's could later draw on and I think that's really important as well that you should really important as well that you should really important as well that you should people really should think of their people really should think of their people really should think of their early years in their career as filling early years in their career as filling early years in their career as filling up their brain with as W building as up their brain with as W building as up their brain with as W building as wide a base as possible from which to um wide a base as possible from which to um wide a base as possible from which to um work from that it just becomes work from that it just becomes work from that it just becomes incredibly useful in later life when incredibly useful in later life when incredibly useful in later life when you've got disperate experiences to draw you've got disperate experiences to draw you've got disperate experiences to draw to have something to actually write to have something to actually write to have something to actually write about rather than oh I want to be a about rather than oh I want to be a about rather than oh I want to be a writer right yeah I tell Young Writers writer right yeah I tell Young Writers writer right yeah I tell Young Writers don't study writing study something else don't study writing study something else don't study writing study something else that you can write about it's much more that you can write about it's much more that you can write about it's much more important to know what you want to write important to know what you want to write important to know what you want to write about than to about than to about than to be writing itself will come as the more

be writing itself will come as the more be writing itself will come as the more experience you the what practice you experience you the what practice you experience you the what practice you have the better you can become a good have the better you can become a good have the better you can become a good writer but experiences are something you writer but experiences are something you writer but experiences are something you have to go out and acquire deliberately have to go out and acquire deliberately have to go out and acquire deliberately and intentionally and that's what you and intentionally and that's what you and intentionally and that's what you should be focused on what do you care should be focused on what do you care should be focused on what do you care about like things people people write about like things people people write about like things people people write most powerfully and compellingly about most powerfully and compellingly about most powerfully and compellingly about the things they care about so the first the things they care about so the first the things they care about so the first question should be what do you care question should be what do you care question should be what do you care about um and if you don't if you can't about um and if you don't if you can't about um and if you don't if you can't answer that question in the immediately answer that question in the immediately answer that question in the immediately and emphatically you shouldn't be and emphatically you shouldn't be and emphatically you shouldn't be writing that's a fair point that's a writing that's a fair point that's a writing that's a fair point that's a really fair point um so 25 years ago any really fair point um so 25 years ago any really fair point um so 25 years ago any idea what tipped the Tipping Point idea what tipped the Tipping Point idea what tipped the Tipping Point ironically what you wrote about happened ironically what you wrote about happened ironically what you wrote about happened to your book it hit a Tipping Point to your book it hit a Tipping Point to your book it hit a Tipping Point where it sort of invaded the popular where it sort of invaded the popular where it sort of invaded the popular Consciousness sold a lot of copies uh a Consciousness sold a lot of copies uh a Consciousness sold a lot of copies uh a lot of the ideas in the Tipping Point lot of the ideas in the Tipping Point lot of the ideas in the Tipping Point actually came true in how widespread actually came true in how widespread actually came true in how widespread that book became when you look back on that book became when you look back on that book became when you look back on it what were some of the factors that it what were some of the factors that it what were some of the factors that made your debut book take off at the made your debut book take off at the made your debut book take off at the time pre- internet pre-social media pre- time pre- internet pre-social media pre- time pre- internet pre-social media pre- influencer all of that back in influencer all of that back in influencer all of that back in 2000 yeah I mean you don't have a good 2000 yeah I mean you don't have a good 2000 yeah I mean you don't have a good answer to that I mean I know that I answer to that I mean I know that I answer to that I mean I know that I think a good part of it is luck I think think a good part of it is luck I think think a good part of it is luck I think that there was that there was that there was something I just happened to kind of put something I just happened to kind of put something I just happened to kind of put my you know the put my finger in the Ze my you know the put my finger in the Ze my you know the put my finger in the Ze gu for a moment um I think that uh it gu for a moment um I think that uh it gu for a moment um I think that uh it was a hopeful book at a time that was was a hopeful book at a time that was was a hopeful book at a time that was profoundly optimistic the early 2000s I

profoundly optimistic the early 2000s I profoundly optimistic the early 2000s I mean we've forgotten mean we've forgotten mean we've forgotten what Cold War was over world was getting what Cold War was over world was getting what Cold War was over world was getting more prosperous by the day it just more prosperous by the day it just more prosperous by the day it just seemed like you know after years and seemed like you know after years and seemed like you know after years and years and years of anxiety the world was years and years of anxiety the world was years and years of anxiety the world was headed in the right direction and so a headed in the right direction and so a headed in the right direction and so a book that sort of talked about how you book that sort of talked about how you book that sort of talked about how you can create positive change was hit a can create positive change was hit a can create positive change was hit a cord um I I also I I spent so much time cord um I I also I I spent so much time cord um I I also I I spent so much time on the road promoting it that in a way on the road promoting it that in a way on the road promoting it that in a way that it would be impossible today but uh that it would be impossible today but uh that it would be impossible today but uh I spent years it didn't it didn't become I spent years it didn't it didn't become I spent years it didn't it didn't become a bestseller as a hard cover as it a bestseller as a hard cover as it a bestseller as a hard cover as it became a bestseller as a paperback I became a bestseller as a paperback I became a bestseller as a paperback I didn't know that yeah I didn't actually didn't know that yeah I didn't actually didn't know that yeah I didn't actually hit the best cell list until my second hit the best cell list until my second hit the best cell list until my second book blink came out four years book blink came out four years book blink came out four years later really and it wrote people read later really and it wrote people read later really and it wrote people read blink and went back and got Tipping blink and went back and got Tipping blink and went back and got Tipping Point and I had been promoting it in Point and I had been promoting it in Point and I had been promoting it in those intervening years those intervening years those intervening years non-stop I just was on the road non-stop I just was on the road non-stop I just was on the road for uh just going to one place after for uh just going to one place after for uh just going to one place after another um and so I said it was very in another um and so I said it was very in another um and so I said it was very in that sense it was very very old school that sense it was very very old school that sense it was very very old school you know it was like a like a rock band you know it was like a like a rock band you know it was like a like a rock band you know going from Club to Club um you know going from Club to Club um you know going from Club to Club um getting the word out so there was a lot getting the word out so there was a lot getting the word out so there was a lot of Sho leather there and I still think of Sho leather there and I still think of Sho leather there and I still think there's still no particularly now there's still no particularly now there's still no particularly now there's still no um there is no there's still no um there is no there's still no um there is no substitute for the particular power of a substitute for the particular power of a substitute for the particular power of a face-to-face interaction of doing some face-to-face interaction of doing some face-to-face interaction of doing some kind of event where people see you in kind of event where people see you in kind of event where people see you in person that is the person that is the person that is the most that is the most important way to most that is the most important way to most that is the most important way to reach people I don't I every other way

reach people I don't I every other way reach people I don't I every other way we come up with to replace that is a um we come up with to replace that is a um we come up with to replace that is a um compromise so even podcasting not the compromise so even podcasting not the compromise so even podcasting not the same as being there in person and doing same as being there in person and doing same as being there in person and doing a live event in your VI podcasting I a live event in your VI podcasting I a live event in your VI podcasting I mean it's not the same no what it allow mean it's not the same no what it allow mean it's not the same no what it allow what podcasting podcasting allows us to what podcasting podcasting allows us to what podcasting podcasting allows us to do is it gives us access to a wide range do is it gives us access to a wide range do is it gives us access to a wide range of things that we could never get if we of things that we could never get if we of things that we could never get if we had to do everything in person so I had to do everything in person so I had to do everything in person so I willingly give up on the power in willingly give up on the power in willingly give up on the power in exchange what I get is exchange what I get is exchange what I get is range um you know I can listen to range um you know I can listen to range um you know I can listen to podcasts about you know track and field podcasts about you know track and field podcasts about you know track and field I can listen to your podcast and I can I can listen to your podcast and I can I can listen to your podcast and I can listen to someone dissects some listen to someone dissects some listen to someone dissects some intellectual thing all on my way to work intellectual thing all on my way to work intellectual thing all on my way to work right can't do that if you have to do it right can't do that if you have to do it right can't do that if you have to do it in person so it has marvelous qualities in person so it has marvelous qualities in person so it has marvelous qualities but there's no question that if you and but there's no question that if you and but there's no question that if you and I were doing this in front of a live I were doing this in front of a live I were doing this in front of a live audience of 300 people the effect of our audience of 300 people the effect of our audience of 300 people the effect of our conversation would be far greater on conversation would be far greater on conversation would be far greater on those 300 in the room well and probably those 300 in the room well and probably those 300 in the room well and probably the questions would be different I don't the questions would be different I don't the questions would be different I don't know there's a Vibe when it's you and me know there's a Vibe when it's you and me know there's a Vibe when it's you and me via Riverside and there's a vibe in via Riverside and there's a vibe in via Riverside and there's a vibe in front of a live audience it's just it's front of a live audience it's just it's front of a live audience it's just it's a different experience for sure yeah I a different experience for sure yeah I a different experience for sure yeah I think I yeah that's true for people who think I yeah that's true for people who think I yeah that's true for people who may not have read the original Tipping may not have read the original Tipping may not have read the original Tipping Point can you give us the real short Point can you give us the real short Point can you give us the real short thumbnail of what the big idea was in thumbnail of what the big idea was in thumbnail of what the big idea was in the book and then I want to get into how the book and then I want to get into how the book and then I want to get into how you Revisited it and came up with the you Revisited it and came up with the you Revisited it and came up with the Revenge of the Tipping Point yeah the Revenge of the Tipping Point yeah the Revenge of the Tipping Point yeah the Tipping the original Tipping Point was a Tipping the original Tipping Point was a Tipping the original Tipping Point was a book that simply that said the best way book that simply that said the best way book that simply that said the best way to understand how ideas and behaviors to understand how ideas and behaviors to understand how ideas and behaviors move through

move through move through Society how that kind of change happens Society how that kind of change happens Society how that kind of change happens is to think of them as behaving like is to think of them as behaving like is to think of them as behaving like viruses that the rules of viruses that the rules of viruses that the rules of epidemics um uh don't just cover epidemics um uh don't just cover epidemics um uh don't just cover illnesses illnesses illnesses and diseases they also help us and diseases they also help us and diseases they also help us explain um everything but from you know explain um everything but from you know explain um everything but from you know why we buy the things we buy to why we why we buy the things we buy to why we why we buy the things we buy to why we say the things we say to any kind of any say the things we say to any kind of any say the things we say to any kind of any any kind of contagious idea um follows any kind of contagious idea um follows any kind of contagious idea um follows the principles laid down by those who the principles laid down by those who the principles laid down by those who study epidemics that seems very common study epidemics that seems very common study epidemics that seems very common place today it was a little less so 25 place today it was a little less so 25 place today it was a little less so 25 years ago you were writing about going years ago you were writing about going years ago you were writing about going viral before we had that term yeah viral before we had that term yeah viral before we had that term yeah that's right I was trying to con that that's right I was trying to con that that's right I was trying to con that was before the internet real well before was before the internet real well before was before the internet real well before social media the internet was there but social media the internet was there but social media the internet was there but it wasn't easily sharable social media it wasn't easily sharable social media it wasn't easily sharable social media changed that a few years after it came changed that a few years after it came changed that a few years after it came out your book came out yeah so now out your book came out yeah so now out your book came out yeah so now you're revisiting the idea you decided you're revisiting the idea you decided you're revisiting the idea you decided to write a whole new book and in part it to write a whole new book and in part it to write a whole new book and in part it was shaped if I understand correctly by was shaped if I understand correctly by was shaped if I understand correctly by how much you've changed and the world how much you've changed and the world how much you've changed and the world has changed you want to talk about the has changed you want to talk about the has changed you want to talk about the different angle and any similarities different angle and any similarities different angle and any similarities between revenge of the Tipping Point and between revenge of the Tipping Point and between revenge of the Tipping Point and the original Tipping Point yeah so in the original Tipping Point yeah so in the original Tipping Point yeah so in the in theing 25 years as we've said it the in theing 25 years as we've said it the in theing 25 years as we've said it has become a common it has become has become a common it has become has become a common it has become commonplace to understand the movement commonplace to understand the movement commonplace to understand the movement of ideas and viruses as ideas of of ideas and viruses as ideas of of ideas and viruses as ideas of movement of ideas and behaviors as uh as movement of ideas and behaviors as uh as movement of ideas and behaviors as uh as following the patterns of epidemics and following the patterns of epidemics and following the patterns of epidemics and so what I wanted to do is to say okay so what I wanted to do is to say okay so what I wanted to do is to say okay what are the consequences of this and so

what are the consequences of this and so what are the consequences of this and so this book is an exploration of the ways this book is an exploration of the ways this book is an exploration of the ways in which people in which people in which people are using the principles of epidemics to are using the principles of epidemics to are using the principles of epidemics to further their own ends some positive further their own ends some positive further their own ends some positive some negative some overt some uh some negative some overt some uh some negative some overt some uh ctitious um I'm very interested now in ctitious um I'm very interested now in ctitious um I'm very interested now in Social Engineering in um the kind of Social Engineering in um the kind of Social Engineering in um the kind of manipulation of the rules of epidemics manipulation of the rules of epidemics manipulation of the rules of epidemics for one purpose or another and I'm very for one purpose or another and I'm very for one purpose or another and I'm very interested in the kind of difficult interested in the kind of difficult interested in the kind of difficult questions that arise when you take questions that arise when you take questions that arise when you take epidemics seriously um so a lot of the epidemics seriously um so a lot of the epidemics seriously um so a lot of the book is like for example there's a book is like for example there's a book is like for example there's a chapter on covid on chapter on covid on chapter on covid on a story of the one of the biggest super a story of the one of the biggest super a story of the one of the biggest super spreading events of covid and the the spreading events of covid and the the spreading events of covid and the the point of the chapter of on covid is that point of the chapter of on covid is that point of the chapter of on covid is that there is one thing about Co that we there is one thing about Co that we there is one thing about Co that we failed failed failed to properly grasp during that pandemic to properly grasp during that pandemic to properly grasp during that pandemic and that is that the overwhelming and that is that the overwhelming and that is that the overwhelming majority of people who are positive with majority of people who are positive with majority of people who are positive with covid pose no real threat to anyone else covid pose no real threat to anyone else covid pose no real threat to anyone else that the virus was being spread by a that the virus was being spread by a that the virus was being spread by a very very very very very small number of very very very very very small number of very very very very very small number of people who were emitting orders of people who were emitting orders of people who were emitting orders of magnitude more viral particles when they magnitude more viral particles when they magnitude more viral particles when they breathe and sneeze and cough and breathe and sneeze and cough and breathe and sneeze and cough and everybody else in other words if a everybody else in other words if a everybody else in other words if a thousand people have covid to maybe five thousand people have covid to maybe five thousand people have covid to maybe five people who are actually spreading it to people who are actually spreading it to people who are actually spreading it to others everyone else is really just others everyone else is really just others everyone else is really just begin the co stops they get it and

begin the co stops they get it and begin the co stops they get it and doesn't go anywhere um once you doesn't go anywhere um once you doesn't go anywhere um once you understand that you understand that oh understand that you understand that oh understand that you understand that oh wait a minute the way we were fighting wait a minute the way we were fighting wait a minute the way we were fighting it a is all wrong or at least not going it a is all wrong or at least not going it a is all wrong or at least not going to be very effective so those thousand to be very effective so those thousand to be very effective so those thousand people only five need to stay home the people only five need to stay home the people only five need to stay home the other 995 can quite safely move through other 995 can quite safely move through other 995 can quite safely move through the world and not really be any major the world and not really be any major the world and not really be any major risk to others but then there's an risk to others but then there's an risk to others but then there's an ominous thing which is okay if we knew ominous thing which is okay if we knew ominous thing which is okay if we knew who those five people were we could who those five people were we could who those five people were we could predict who they would be what do you do predict who they would be what do you do predict who they would be what do you do with them what do you do with that right with them what do you do with that right with them what do you do with that right what do you do with that right that's a what do you do with that right that's a what do you do with that right that's a hard question I don't have a good answer hard question I don't have a good answer hard question I don't have a good answer to it but my point is the next time we to it but my point is the next time we to it but my point is the next time we have a pandemic that's the question have a pandemic that's the question have a pandemic that's the question we're going to be asking and someone's we're going to be asking and someone's we're going to be asking and someone's going to come to you Carrie and say going to come to you Carrie and say going to come to you Carrie and say Carrie we just figured out like these Carrie we just figured out like these Carrie we just figured out like these kinds first of all this thing is not kinds first of all this thing is not kinds first of all this thing is not randomly distributed the idea is that randomly distributed the idea is that randomly distributed the idea is that there are certain people who as there are certain people who as there are certain people who as a uh as a feature of their a uh as a feature of their a uh as a feature of their physiology just emit more virus physiology just emit more virus physiology just emit more virus particles and everybody else so if they particles and everybody else so if they particles and everybody else so if they will come to you and say Carrie when you will come to you and say Carrie when you will come to you and say Carrie when you have a cold everyone gets a cold when have a cold everyone gets a cold when have a cold everyone gets a cold when you have the flu everyone in your life you have the flu everyone in your life you have the flu everyone in your life gets the flu and when you have covid gets the flu and when you have covid gets the flu and when you have covid everyone in your life is going to get everyone in your life is going to get everyone in your life is going to get covid you are a super spreader we are covid you are a super spreader we are covid you are a super spreader we are now facing an outbreak of this new now facing an outbreak of this new now facing an outbreak of this new deadly respiratory virus I'm sorry you deadly respiratory virus I'm sorry you deadly respiratory virus I'm sorry you can't leave your house for the next six can't leave your house for the next six can't leave your house for the next six months months months now that's what do we do with that you now that's what do we do with that you now that's what do we do with that you can't you know you can't you want to go can't you know you can't you want to go can't you know you can't you want to go to a restaurant no you can't sorry no

to a restaurant no you can't sorry no to a restaurant no you can't sorry no you want to fly on an airplane no one's you want to fly on an airplane no one's you want to fly on an airplane no one's they're not goingon to let you on an they're not goingon to let you on an they're not goingon to let you on an airplane and no one's going to sit next airplane and no one's going to sit next airplane and no one's going to sit next to you if they do your family's going to to you if they do your family's going to to you if they do your family's going to say well what if this virus is deadly say well what if this virus is deadly say well what if this virus is deadly are they all going to leave you I mean I are they all going to leave you I mean I are they all going to leave you I mean I mean it's just like the whole wow this mean it's just like the whole wow this mean it's just like the whole wow this gets really really difficult really gets really really difficult really gets really really difficult really really quickly and moreover moreover really quickly and moreover moreover really quickly and moreover moreover like no I mean I don't even need to do like no I mean I don't even need to do like no I mean I don't even need to do them moreover that chapter is just about them moreover that chapter is just about them moreover that chapter is just about do we un should let's start having a do we un should let's start having a do we un should let's start having a conversation now about what happens the conversation now about what happens the conversation now about what happens the next time we have one of these because I next time we have one of these because I next time we have one of these because I don't know the answer to these questions don't know the answer to these questions don't know the answer to these questions these are hard questions we've been these are hard questions we've been these are hard questions we've been telling ourselves a fairy tale about the telling ourselves a fairy tale about the telling ourselves a fairy tale about the transmission of respiratory viruses transmission of respiratory viruses transmission of respiratory viruses because it's easier because it's easier because it's easier it's easier to say we're all at risk of it's easier to say we're all at risk of it's easier to say we're all at risk of passing onor virus to somebody else and passing onor virus to somebody else and passing onor virus to somebody else and it's it's it may be easier but it's not it's it's it may be easier but it's not it's it's it may be easier but it's not true right wow um wow so I do repeatedly true right wow um wow so I do repeatedly true right wow um wow so I do repeatedly through the book I try and there's these through the book I try and there's these through the book I try and there's these occasions where I just say look it's the occasions where I just say look it's the occasions where I just say look it's the only the only way to do this properly is only the only way to do this properly is only the only way to do this properly is to have a conversation now um and and if to have a conversation now um and and if to have a conversation now um and and if we don't then other people we don't then other people we don't then other people will you know go behind our backs and will you know go behind our backs and will you know go behind our backs and start using these principles of start using these principles of start using these principles of epidemics for some kind of nefarious epidemics for some kind of nefarious epidemics for some kind of nefarious end that that's not better than us end that that's not better than us end that that's not better than us having an honest conversation now well having an honest conversation now well having an honest conversation now well and back to the earlier idea of super and back to the earlier idea of super and back to the earlier idea of super spreaders right if that's true in spreaders right if that's true in spreaders right if that's true in viruses it's also true in ideas that you viruses it's also true in ideas that you viruses it's also true in ideas that you don't need a thousand people to share don't need a thousand people to share don't need a thousand people to share your idea but if five of the right

your idea but if five of the right your idea but if five of the right people share this idea for good or for people share this idea for good or for people share this idea for good or for bad it can become the dominant thought bad it can become the dominant thought bad it can become the dominant thought in a heartbeat that's sort of the idea in a heartbeat that's sort of the idea in a heartbeat that's sort of the idea behind it right yes so I had raised this behind it right yes so I had raised this behind it right yes so I had raised this in my book The Tipping Point I talked in my book The Tipping Point I talked in my book The Tipping Point I talked about um uh connectors and salesmen and about um uh connectors and salesmen and about um uh connectors and salesmen and mavens as versions of this people who mavens as versions of this people who mavens as versions of this people who carried much more of the burden of any carried much more of the burden of any carried much more of the burden of any kind of social epidemic but now I think kind of social epidemic but now I think kind of social epidemic but now I think of this as the difference is the second of this as the difference is the second of this as the difference is the second time around is that I think the the time around is that I think the the time around is that I think the the influence of these few I called it the influence of these few I called it the influence of these few I called it the law of the few in my first book now I law of the few in my first book now I law of the few in my first book now I call it the law of the very very few I call it the law of the very very few I call it the law of the very very few I think it's it's way more concentrated in think it's it's way more concentrated in think it's it's way more concentrated in a small number of people than I a small number of people than I a small number of people than I previously had imagined it's we're previously had imagined it's we're previously had imagined it's we're talking about five out of a thousand not talking about five out of a thousand not talking about five out of a thousand not 15 out of 100 um and once you so it's 15 out of 100 um and once you so it's 15 out of 100 um and once you so it's like it's even more like I I have a like it's even more like I I have a like it's even more like I I have a chapter on the opioid crisis without chapter on the opioid crisis without chapter on the opioid crisis without giving too much away the point of that giving too much away the point of that giving too much away the point of that chapter ultimately is that what chapter ultimately is that what chapter ultimately is that what Oxycontin the makers of oxyc conton Oxycontin the makers of oxyc conton Oxycontin the makers of oxyc conton realized was that they didn't need to realized was that they didn't need to realized was that they didn't need to convince convince convince the majority of doctors to prescribe the majority of doctors to prescribe the majority of doctors to prescribe their drug oxyc content in order for their drug oxyc content in order for their drug oxyc content in order for them to have a home run they didn't even them to have a home run they didn't even them to have a home run they didn't even need to convince a small majority or need to convince a small majority or need to convince a small majority or even a minority they needed to convince even a minority they needed to convince even a minority they needed to convince a couple of hundred doctors throughout a couple of hundred doctors throughout a couple of hundred doctors throughout the entire the United States to start the entire the United States to start the entire the United States to start the most devastating overdose epidemic

the most devastating overdose epidemic the most devastating overdose epidemic in the history of the in the history of the in the history of the world right like that's weird like yeah world right like that's weird like yeah world right like that's weird like yeah that's that's what the charts that you that's that's what the charts that you that's that's what the charts that you include in the book certainly suggest it include in the book certainly suggest it include in the book certainly suggest it was it's it's hard because our first was it's it's hard because our first was it's it's hard because our first impulse when we looked at this overdose impulse when we looked at this overdose impulse when we looked at this overdose epidemic which was started by doctors epidemic which was started by doctors epidemic which was started by doctors prescribing painkillers inappropriately prescribing painkillers inappropriately prescribing painkillers inappropriately was to say there's something wrong with was to say there's something wrong with was to say there's something wrong with the medical profession right no there's the medical profession right no there's the medical profession right no there's nothing wrong with the medical nothing wrong with the medical nothing wrong with the medical profession 99.9% of doctors behaved not profession 99.9% of doctors behaved not profession 99.9% of doctors behaved not just just just ethically perfectly they did what they ethically perfectly they did what they ethically perfectly they did what they were supposed to do they said this is were supposed to do they said this is were supposed to do they said this is dangerous I'm not going to and then 0 1% dangerous I'm not going to and then 0 1% dangerous I'm not going to and then 0 1% didn't and that was enough to spark a didn't and that was enough to spark a didn't and that was enough to spark a epidemic that now claims more than epidemic that now claims more than epidemic that now claims more than 100,000 lives a year in the United 100,000 lives a year in the United 100,000 lives a year in the United States like that's scary that's a really States like that's scary that's a really States like that's scary that's a really really complicated scary difficult idea really complicated scary difficult idea really complicated scary difficult idea and it was the app again not doing a and it was the app again not doing a and it was the app again not doing a spoiler alert here because that's where spoiler alert here because that's where spoiler alert here because that's where the book goes but there was you you the book goes but there was you you the book goes but there was you you allege uh the work of uh pharmaceutical allege uh the work of uh pharmaceutical allege uh the work of uh pharmaceutical company and also a consulting company company and also a consulting company company and also a consulting company that said yes but if you do it this way that said yes but if you do it this way that said yes but if you do it this way you will have even more Market share of you will have even more Market share of you will have even more Market share of the opioid market and they did and they the opioid market and they did and they the opioid market and they did and they made gajillions of dollars off of it and made gajillions of dollars off of it and made gajillions of dollars off of it and it was using that law of the very very it was using that law of the very very it was using that law of the very very few to engineer something for their own few to engineer something for their own few to engineer something for their own personal gain at great social cost and personal gain at great social cost and personal gain at great social cost and and the cost of over 100,000 human lives and the cost of over 100,000 human lives and the cost of over 100,000 human lives yeah yeah well hundreds of thousand

yeah yeah well hundreds of thousand yeah yeah well hundreds of thousand hundred thousand human lives a year hundred thousand human lives a year hundred thousand human lives a year hundreds of thousands of yeah no it's a hundreds of thousands of yeah no it's a hundreds of thousands of yeah no it's a kind of um but we sort of kind of um but we sort of kind of um but we sort of known you know the to bring it back to known you know the to bring it back to known you know the to bring it back to your world you your world you your world you know this this story of the the know this this story of the the know this this story of the the beginnings of Christianity it's story beginnings of Christianity it's story beginnings of Christianity it's story about a handful of people right super about a handful of people right super about a handful of people right super spreaders the apostles it's it's like spreaders the apostles it's it's like spreaders the apostles it's it's like it's the apostles and it's Jesus it's it's the apostles and it's Jesus it's it's the apostles and it's Jesus it's not like like who are spreading the word not like like who are spreading the word not like like who are spreading the word in an extraordinar large geographic area in an extraordinar large geographic area in an extraordinar large geographic area now I know that they would recruit now I know that they would recruit now I know that they would recruit others and but the core story it's not others and but the core story it's not others and but the core story it's not this kind of mass movement of you know this kind of mass movement of you know this kind of mass movement of you know 200,000 people sign up at a massive 200,000 people sign up at a massive 200,000 people sign up at a massive you know outdoor concert in in you know you know outdoor concert in in you know you know outdoor concert in in you know salonica whatever no it's like a it's salonica whatever no it's like a it's salonica whatever no it's like a it's like a it's a very small group around like a it's a very small group around like a it's a very small group around one incredibly charismatic man and like one incredibly charismatic man and like one incredibly charismatic man and like that's sufficient to set in motion a an that's sufficient to set in motion a an that's sufficient to set in motion a an epidemic that has lasted 2,000 years epidemic that has lasted 2,000 years epidemic that has lasted 2,000 years like that's the you know is as is always like that's the you know is as is always like that's the you know is as is always the case the the Earth story is right the case the the Earth story is right the case the the Earth story is right there has been right there in front of there has been right there in front of there has been right there in front of us for forever and ever so that gives us for forever and ever so that gives us for forever and ever so that gives those of us in position and you know those of us in position and you know those of us in position and you know this is a leadership podcast so you have this is a leadership podcast so you have this is a leadership podcast so you have leaders whether they run a company leaders whether they run a company leaders whether they run a company whether they lead a church whether they whether they lead a church whether they whether they lead a church whether they preach every weekend or they do public preach every weekend or they do public preach every weekend or they do public speaking or their social media speaking or their social media speaking or their social media influencers or whatever you know we have influencers or whatever you know we have influencers or whatever you know we have disproportionate influence each to his disproportionate influence each to his disproportionate influence each to his or her own I would love to know what are or her own I would love to know what are or her own I would love to know what are the the ethical concerns when you have

the the ethical concerns when you have the the ethical concerns when you have the power to change opinion like what the power to change opinion like what the power to change opinion like what questions questions should we be asking questions questions should we be asking questions questions should we be asking as people who perhaps you know you've as people who perhaps you know you've as people who perhaps you know you've got some super spreaders listening right got some super spreaders listening right got some super spreaders listening right now what do we need to think now what do we need to think now what do we need to think about I mean I think it I think it has about I mean I think it I think it has about I mean I think it I think it has to do with um Leaders with that kind of to do with um Leaders with that kind of to do with um Leaders with that kind of moral Authority need moral Authority need moral Authority need to uh have clear to uh have clear to uh have clear limits on I don't mean this in a in a limits on I don't mean this in a in a limits on I don't mean this in a in a kind of kind of kind of institutional you know uh there's a institutional you know uh there's a institutional you know uh there's a version of that that's kind of almost version of that that's kind of almost version of that that's kind of almost sort of a pun you know we you can't do sort of a pun you know we you can't do sort of a pun you know we you can't do this you can't do this you can't do this this you can't do this you can't do this this you can't do this you can't do this I just think internally someone who I just think internally someone who I just think internally someone who understands that they have that kind of understands that they have that kind of understands that they have that kind of authority needs to be very clear about authority needs to be very clear about authority needs to be very clear about the ends to which they're going to use the ends to which they're going to use the ends to which they're going to use it right they they need to be able to it right they they need to be able to it right they they need to be able to say this is I am trying to do this one say this is I am trying to do this one say this is I am trying to do this one specific thing because I think what specific thing because I think what specific thing because I think what happens the danger comes when people happens the danger comes when people happens the danger comes when people start to drift away from their original start to drift away from their original start to drift away from their original purpose when it becomes a cult of purpose when it becomes a cult of purpose when it becomes a cult of personality when it becomes personality when it becomes personality when it becomes um you know when they kind of lose sight um you know when they kind of lose sight um you know when they kind of lose sight of whatever Mission motivated them in of whatever Mission motivated them in of whatever Mission motivated them in the beginning it's that's the kind of the beginning it's that's the kind of the beginning it's that's the kind of it's the drift that's the problem I it's the drift that's the problem I it's the drift that's the problem I don't think there's any we we we're don't think there's any we we we're don't think there's any we we we're never gonna get away from nor do we want never gonna get away from nor do we want never gonna get away from nor do we want to get away from a world where a small to get away from a world where a small to get away from a world where a small number of very charismatic number of very charismatic number of very charismatic people carry a kind of disproportionate people carry a kind of disproportionate people carry a kind of disproportionate load in leading us and spreading the

load in leading us and spreading the load in leading us and spreading the word that's what's beautiful it's always word that's what's beautiful it's always word that's what's beautiful it's always been thus right we're not getting rid of been thus right we're not getting rid of been thus right we're not getting rid of it we're not yeah we're not we're not it we're not yeah we're not we're not it we're not yeah we're not we're not getting rid of it it's about um it's getting rid of it it's about um it's getting rid of it it's about um it's about sort of understanding what that's about sort of understanding what that's about sort of understanding what that's for um you know I I this I have a friend for um you know I I this I have a friend for um you know I I this I have a friend good friend who's a good friend who's a good friend who's a um uh a man and I Pastor Southern um uh a man and I Pastor Southern um uh a man and I Pastor Southern Ontario and may have me listening to Ontario and may have me listening to Ontario and may have me listening to this podcast you're out there Jim what a this podcast you're out there Jim what a this podcast you're out there Jim what a long time I always tell tell the I've long time I always tell tell the I've long time I always tell tell the I've told the story to my people many times told the story to my people many times told the story to my people many times but years and years ago we were at but years and years ago we were at but years and years ago we were at dinner and a friend of mine who Jim did dinner and a friend of mine who Jim did dinner and a friend of mine who Jim did not know had come to dinner and Jim was not know had come to dinner and Jim was not know had come to dinner and Jim was listening to him and Jim after the listening to him and Jim after the listening to him and Jim after the dinner came out to me and said Jim your dinner came out to me and said Jim your dinner came out to me and said Jim your friend is in a great deal of distress friend is in a great deal of distress friend is in a great deal of distress and I I almost wanted to kind of pull and I I almost wanted to kind of pull and I I almost wanted to kind of pull him aside and talk to him about what's him aside and talk to him about what's him aside and talk to him about what's going on in his life and I was like what going on in his life and I was like what going on in his life and I was like what are you talking about I mean I thought are you talking about I mean I thought are you talking about I mean I thought we were talking about everything seemed we were talking about everything seemed we were talking about everything seemed really good mood no idea what she was really good mood no idea what she was really good mood no idea what she was talking about within a couple months my talking about within a couple months my talking about within a couple months my friend one of his kids committed suicide friend one of his kids committed suicide friend one of his kids committed suicide and his marriage broke up and I just and his marriage broke up and I just and his marriage broke up and I just thought Jim's got a gift incredibly thought Jim's got a gift incredibly thought Jim's got a gift incredibly powerful gift for understanding what powerful gift for understanding what powerful gift for understanding what what people are going through wow and what people are going through wow and what people are going through wow and you know that's a gift not you know that's a gift not you know that's a gift not trivial you could you could imagine all trivial you could you could imagine all trivial you could you could imagine all kinds of scenarios where that could be kinds of scenarios where that could be kinds of scenarios where that could be used if Jim wanted to be a con man he

used if Jim wanted to be a con man he used if Jim wanted to be a con man he wanted if he wanted to start a Ponzi wanted if he wanted to start a Ponzi wanted if he wanted to start a Ponzi team if he wanted team if he wanted team if he wanted to there any number of things he could to there any number of things he could to there any number of things he could do thankfully he's a medite minister do thankfully he's a medite minister do thankfully he's a medite minister like that's not on his not on his radar like that's not on his not on his radar like that's not on his not on his radar but my point is like he knows exactly but my point is like he knows exactly but my point is like he knows exactly what he wants what he wants what he wants to I think he knows he has that gift he to I think he knows he has that gift he to I think he knows he has that gift he knows exactly what he wants to use it knows exactly what he wants to use it knows exactly what he wants to use it for right and he I it would never occur for right and he I it would never occur for right and he I it would never occur to him but there are lots of other to him but there are lots of other to him but there are lots of other people who when they realize they're in people who when they realize they're in people who when they realize they're in a possession of that kind of gift they a possession of that kind of gift they a possession of that kind of gift they don't Place those kinds of restraints on don't Place those kinds of restraints on don't Place those kinds of restraints on themselves that's where we get into themselves that's where we get into themselves that's where we get into trouble well and that leads me to we trouble well and that leads me to we trouble well and that leads me to we teased it out earlier but South Florida teased it out earlier but South Florida teased it out earlier but South Florida Miami right so you paint the profile of Miami right so you paint the profile of Miami right so you paint the profile of this business person who appeared to be this business person who appeared to be this business person who appeared to be living a fairly ethical life moves to living a fairly ethical life moves to living a fairly ethical life moves to South Florida at an interesting time and South Florida at an interesting time and South Florida at an interesting time and suddenly finds himself the king of graft suddenly finds himself the king of graft suddenly finds himself the king of graft and Corruption and greed and all of and Corruption and greed and all of and Corruption and greed and all of these things and those those stories these things and those those stories these things and those those stories always well they really they really always well they really they really always well they really they really terrify me they grip me it's like look terrify me they grip me it's like look terrify me they grip me it's like look inside you know physician heal thyself inside you know physician heal thyself inside you know physician heal thyself be careful it's almost like a a culture be careful it's almost like a a culture be careful it's almost like a a culture right that can can sweep you away when right that can can sweep you away when right that can can sweep you away when incentives are good enough can you tell incentives are good enough can you tell incentives are good enough can you tell some of that story and what you learned some of that story and what you learned some of that story and what you learned when you studied that case study yeah when you studied that case study yeah when you studied that case study yeah the the the um well I I got very interested um well I I got very interested um well I I got very interested in this um idea called small area in this um idea called small area in this um idea called small area variation which is this idea that there

variation which is this idea that there variation which is this idea that there are enormous differences in the way not are enormous differences in the way not are enormous differences in the way not people behave from one Community to the people behave from one Community to the people behave from one Community to the next but in the way communities behave next but in the way communities behave next but in the way communities behave right that you can the simplest way to right that you can the simplest way to right that you can the simplest way to look at it is look at how medicine is look at it is look at how medicine is look at it is look at how medicine is practiced people think medicine is practiced people think medicine is practiced people think medicine is practiced the same way all across North practiced the same way all across North practiced the same way all across North America America America false if you live in Buffalo I use the false if you live in Buffalo I use the false if you live in Buffalo I use the example Buffalo and Boulder the kind of example Buffalo and Boulder the kind of example Buffalo and Boulder the kind of the kind of Cardiology care you get in the kind of Cardiology care you get in the kind of Cardiology care you get in Boulder looks nothing like the kind of Boulder looks nothing like the kind of Boulder looks nothing like the kind of Cardiology you get in Buffalo it's not Cardiology you get in Buffalo it's not Cardiology you get in Buffalo it's not not that one is better than the other not that one is better than the other not that one is better than the other they're just wildly different and they're just wildly different and they're just wildly different and there's also I was got very into this there's also I was got very into this there's also I was got very into this because it struck me that because it struck me that because it struck me that epidemics these are epid these are epidemics these are epid these are epidemics these are epid these are contagious behaviors that that infect a contagious behaviors that that infect a contagious behaviors that that infect a community of practitioners of some but community of practitioners of some but community of practitioners of some but they're local the contagion stops at the they're local the contagion stops at the they're local the contagion stops at the border of the community right that's border of the community right that's border of the community right that's what interests me so I got really what interests me so I got really what interests me so I got really interested in South Florida because interested in South Florida because interested in South Florida because South Florida turns out to be the South Florida turns out to be the South Florida turns out to be the Medicare fraud capital of America Medicare fraud capital of America Medicare fraud capital of America no one else is even close if there's a no one else is even close if there's a no one else is even close if there's a scam or something going on it's scam or something going on it's scam or something going on it's happening in Miami and and the question happening in Miami and and the question happening in Miami and and the question is why and so I tell the story of a guy is why and so I tell the story of a guy is why and so I tell the story of a guy who's a nursing home operator in Chicago who's a nursing home operator in Chicago who's a nursing home operator in Chicago who moved to who moved to who moved to Miami and Miami got a hold of him and in Miami and Miami got a hold of him and in Miami and Miami got a hold of him and in this way that was like so kind of both this way that was like so kind of both this way that was like so kind of both like weird and sort of a little bit like weird and sort of a little bit like weird and sort of a little bit hilarious and just like and it was it's hilarious and just like and it was it's hilarious and just like and it was it's all about the corrupt the way that a

all about the corrupt the way that a all about the corrupt the way that a place an environment can corrupt can place an environment can corrupt can place an environment can corrupt can corrupt you um and uh it made me I've corrupt you um and uh it made me I've corrupt you um and uh it made me I've always been a little bit of an always been a little bit of an always been a little bit of an environmentalist in the sense of that I environmentalist in the sense of that I environmentalist in the sense of that I think environments have much more of our think environments have much more of our think environments have much more of our immediate context has much more of an immediate context has much more of an immediate context has much more of an influence on who we are and how we influence on who we are and how we influence on who we are and how we behaved and but this really cemented it behaved and but this really cemented it behaved and but this really cemented it for me I just had no I I would never for me I just had no I I would never for me I just had no I I would never have that chapter is the kind of have that chapter is the kind of have that chapter is the kind of most aggressive version of the most aggressive version of the most aggressive version of the contextual case for behavior that I've contextual case for behavior that I've contextual case for behavior that I've ever made ever made ever made um it does really does seem to be the um it does really does seem to be the um it does really does seem to be the case that when people in certain case that when people in certain case that when people in certain professions move to Miami or South professions move to Miami or South professions move to Miami or South Florida their behavior changes and not Florida their behavior changes and not Florida their behavior changes and not for the better that there's just local for the better that there's just local for the better that there's just local Norms that are different and that if you Norms that are different and that if you Norms that are different and that if you never thought about doing fraud before never thought about doing fraud before never thought about doing fraud before you got to Miami it it'll come up once you got to Miami it it'll come up once you got to Miami it it'll come up once you move there and what's funny as well you move there and what's funny as well you move there and what's funny as well is that I I didn't really get into it in is that I I didn't really get into it in is that I I didn't really get into it in the chapter but Miami is the fraud the chapter but Miami is the fraud the chapter but Miami is the fraud leader in like an in sane number of leader in like an in sane number of leader in like an in sane number of different disciplines it's it's a deeply different disciplines it's it's a deeply different disciplines it's it's a deeply weirdly hilariously corrupt place um and weirdly hilariously corrupt place um and weirdly hilariously corrupt place um and I that's what I was trying to get at I that's what I was trying to get at I that's what I was trying to get at this idea that we have this kind of this idea that we have this kind of this idea that we have this kind of notion that a contagion is something notion that a contagion is something notion that a contagion is something that's out of that's out of that's out of control that just kind of spreads and control that just kind of spreads and control that just kind of spreads and you can't stop it and it turns out to be you can't stop it and it turns out to be you can't stop it and it turns out to be absolutely false contagion belong to absolutely false contagion belong to absolutely false contagion belong to certain ecosystems certain communities certain ecosystems certain communities certain ecosystems certain communities certain they have boundaries and they certain they have boundaries and they certain they have boundaries and they respect the boundaries

respect the boundaries respect the boundaries and and and um May me by the way more than ever um May me by the way more than ever um May me by the way more than ever convinced that uh you know the the convinced that uh you know the the convinced that uh you know the the notion of A change is as good as a rest notion of A change is as good as a rest notion of A change is as good as a rest um you know you got some kid who's um you know you got some kid who's um you know you got some kid who's struggling and you're a parent the value struggling and you're a parent the value struggling and you're a parent the value of we all parents kind of know this I of we all parents kind of know this I of we all parents kind of know this I guess the value of moving your kid to a guess the value of moving your kid to a guess the value of moving your kid to a new environment cannot be understated it new environment cannot be understated it new environment cannot be understated it really really really really really makes really really really really really makes really really really really really makes a difference if you can choose the right a difference if you can choose the right a difference if you can choose the right new uh place I this was kind of proof of new uh place I this was kind of proof of new uh place I this was kind of proof of that that that principle well and what was interesting principle well and what was interesting principle well and what was interesting to me is it you know that uh principle to me is it you know that uh principle to me is it you know that uh principle and also the thing about popular Grove and also the thing about popular Grove and also the thing about popular Grove where High achieving families High where High achieving families High where High achieving families High achieving families you know eventually achieving families you know eventually achieving families you know eventually drove their kids to despair that talked drove their kids to despair that talked drove their kids to despair that talked to me about the importance of culture to me about the importance of culture to me about the importance of culture and leader set culture like if I'm in a and leader set culture like if I'm in a and leader set culture like if I'm in a culture a a geographic or denominational culture a a geographic or denominational culture a a geographic or denominational or cultural setting where everybody or cultural setting where everybody or cultural setting where everybody cheats and everybody lies and everybody cheats and everybody lies and everybody cheats and everybody lies and everybody in inflates whatever so for example I in inflates whatever so for example I in inflates whatever so for example I worked at a law firm you know if worked at a law firm you know if worked at a law firm you know if everybody just inflates the hours that everybody just inflates the hours that everybody just inflates the hours that they actually worked on a case to pad they actually worked on a case to pad they actually worked on a case to pad billing it becomes easier to do that billing it becomes easier to do that billing it becomes easier to do that than if you're in a firm where it's like than if you're in a firm where it's like than if you're in a firm where it's like well are you sure you worked oh you're well are you sure you worked oh you're well are you sure you worked oh you're right I miscalculated okay let me let me right I miscalculated okay let me let me right I miscalculated okay let me let me estimate that down right the the estimate that down right the the estimate that down right the the Integrity we have as Leaders really Integrity we have as Leaders really Integrity we have as Leaders really dribbles down like like drifts down to dribbles down like like drifts down to dribbles down like like drifts down to everybody else in the everybody else in the everybody else in the organization um I'd love for you to talk organization um I'd love for you to talk organization um I'd love for you to talk talk about the importance like you know

talk about the importance like you know talk about the importance like you know is it inevitable that if you move to is it inevitable that if you move to is it inevitable that if you move to Miami we do have Miami listeners so I'm Miami we do have Miami listeners so I'm Miami we do have Miami listeners so I'm I'm excited I'll share the mailbag with I'm excited I'll share the mailbag with I'm excited I'll share the mailbag with you uh Malcolm when they hear this you uh Malcolm when they hear this you uh Malcolm when they hear this episode you know not everybody in Miami episode you know not everybody in Miami episode you know not everybody in Miami is corrupt but what you're arguing is is corrupt but what you're arguing is is corrupt but what you're arguing is the likelihood of you if you have that the likelihood of you if you have that the likelihood of you if you have that in you the likelihood of that being in you the likelihood of that being in you the likelihood of that being encouraged or fostered where all the encouraged or fostered where all the encouraged or fostered where all the fraud is higher in that area than say fraud is higher in that area than say fraud is higher in that area than say Iowa or even Connecticut um I'm just Iowa or even Connecticut um I'm just Iowa or even Connecticut um I'm just curious how that works well it's not curious how that works well it's not curious how that works well it's not just there is unconscious contagion I go just there is unconscious contagion I go just there is unconscious contagion I go to a place and something that I used to to a place and something that I used to to a place and something that I used to think of as a gray area or a no-o area think of as a gray area or a no-o area think of as a gray area or a no-o area is is is suddenly being defined differently suddenly being defined differently suddenly being defined differently people are kind of shrugging it off and people are kind of shrugging it off and people are kind of shrugging it off and that becomes hard to resist after a that becomes hard to resist after a that becomes hard to resist after a while right then there's the deliberate while right then there's the deliberate while right then there's the deliberate version which version which version which is if you're like this guy I was is if you're like this guy I was is if you're like this guy I was profiling was in nursing home profiling was in nursing home profiling was in nursing home business if your competitor is running a business if your competitor is running a business if your competitor is running a nursing home and they're nursing home and they're nursing home and they're cheating and it's a difficult business cheating and it's a difficult business cheating and it's a difficult business to begin with comes really really hard to begin with comes really really hard to begin with comes really really hard for you to St stay in the straight and for you to St stay in the straight and for you to St stay in the straight and narrow you might got a you might go out narrow you might got a you might go out narrow you might got a you might go out of business right yeah yeah so you know of business right yeah yeah so you know of business right yeah yeah so you know there's this there's a kind of there's this there's a kind of there's this there's a kind of existential choice that people have to existential choice that people have to existential choice that people have to make which is do I fight this and make which is do I fight this and make which is do I fight this and potentially put my livelihood at risk or potentially put my livelihood at risk or potentially put my livelihood at risk or do I just say I don't have any choice do I just say I don't have any choice do I just say I don't have any choice that's the way business is done here you that's the way business is done here you that's the way business is done here you know that's um you know for years and know that's um you know for years and know that's um you know for years and years and years in New York every body years and years in New York every body years and years in New York every body who had garbage every who had garbage every who had garbage every commercial the the the the the trash the

commercial the the the the the trash the commercial the the the the the trash the waste removal business was dominated by waste removal business was dominated by waste removal business was dominated by the mafia through the 1980s or 90s even the mafia through the 1980s or 90s even the mafia through the 1980s or 90s even and otherwise upstanding and otherwise upstanding and otherwise upstanding people paid sirch charge to Mafia waste people paid sirch charge to Mafia waste people paid sirch charge to Mafia waste companies to take the garbage away companies to take the garbage away companies to take the garbage away because they didn't have a choice that's because they didn't have a choice that's because they didn't have a choice that's was that or nobody would take your was that or nobody would take your was that or nobody would take your garbage or somebody would like you know garbage or somebody would like you know garbage or somebody would like you know disrupt your business in some way like disrupt your business in some way like disrupt your business in some way like these are honest people who are being these are honest people who are being these are honest people who are being forced by their environment into that forced by their environment into that forced by their environment into that kind of for competitive reasons so kind of for competitive reasons so kind of for competitive reasons so there's a little bit of both going on um there's a little bit of both going on um there's a little bit of both going on um there's a there is that kind of culture there's a there is that kind of culture there's a there is that kind of culture setting I get swept up in something and setting I get swept up in something and setting I get swept up in something and then there's a kind of rational version then there's a kind of rational version then there's a kind of rational version where people say I don't have any choice where people say I don't have any choice where people say I don't have any choice like I gotta both are deeply problematic like I gotta both are deeply problematic like I gotta both are deeply problematic and both are uh can only be fixed by and both are uh can only be fixed by and both are uh can only be fixed by some kind of uh that's what leaders are some kind of uh that's what leaders are some kind of uh that's what leaders are there to do is to fix those kinds of there to do is to fix those kinds of there to do is to fix those kinds of problems and to set a new tone and say problems and to set a new tone and say problems and to set a new tone and say um uh you know this is the this this is um uh you know this is the this this is um uh you know this is the this this is the the the appropriate uh standard of behavior here appropriate uh standard of behavior here appropriate uh standard of behavior here um yeah and um that is something that I um yeah and um that is something that I um yeah and um that is something that I don't think we can take for granted if don't think we can take for granted if don't think we can take for granted if you you lose that something kind of you you lose that something kind of you you lose that something kind of leeches out of the out of the culture of leeches out of the out of the culture of leeches out of the out of the culture of your your your organization yeah it's sort of one of organization yeah it's sort of one of organization yeah it's sort of one of those as for me and house this is what those as for me and house this is what those as for me and house this is what we're going to do right or as Jesus we're going to do right or as Jesus we're going to do right or as Jesus would say among you it'll be different would say among you it'll be different would say among you it'll be different yeah and I think that's a really good uh

yeah and I think that's a really good uh yeah and I think that's a really good uh reminder for those of us who have reminder for those of us who have reminder for those of us who have influence or leadership I'm curious you influence or leadership I'm curious you influence or leadership I'm curious you know because you say it's a darker world know because you say it's a darker world know because you say it's a darker world now than it was in 2000 and I have a now than it was in 2000 and I have a now than it was in 2000 and I have a working memory of 2000 and I would agree working memory of 2000 and I would agree working memory of 2000 and I would agree with that that's come up numerous times with that that's come up numerous times with that that's come up numerous times on the podcast over the years I wonder on the podcast over the years I wonder on the podcast over the years I wonder what writing revenge like Revenge at the what writing revenge like Revenge at the what writing revenge like Revenge at the Tipping Point did for your sense of Tipping Point did for your sense of Tipping Point did for your sense of optimism or cynicism I mean I find find optimism or cynicism I mean I find find optimism or cynicism I mean I find find myself at my age and my stage I want to myself at my age and my stage I want to myself at my age and my stage I want to be an optimist but some days it's a be an optimist but some days it's a be an optimist but some days it's a fight you know it's like I this is a fight you know it's like I this is a fight you know it's like I this is a decision I'm making not an emotion I'm decision I'm making not an emotion I'm decision I'm making not an emotion I'm feeling what happened to you as you kind feeling what happened to you as you kind feeling what happened to you as you kind of looked at the shadow side of the of looked at the shadow side of the of looked at the shadow side of the Tipping Point that sometimes it isn't Tipping Point that sometimes it isn't Tipping Point that sometimes it isn't always used for good uh how's that always used for good uh how's that always used for good uh how's that internal battle going on inside you internal battle going on inside you internal battle going on inside you these days these days these days Malcolm well I'm sort of A congenital Malcolm well I'm sort of A congenital Malcolm well I'm sort of A congenital optimist so it's hard to dislodge my optimist so it's hard to dislodge my optimist so it's hard to dislodge my optimism and I feel like identify uh you know uh malevolent actors and uh you know uh malevolent actors and detailing their strategies and alerting detailing their strategies and alerting detailing their strategies and alerting us to the way in us to the way in us to the way in which we are being cheated or is a form which we are being cheated or is a form which we are being cheated or is a form of optimism I mean it's like you know of optimism I mean it's like you know of optimism I mean it's like you know what the games that you know Purdue what the games that you know Purdue what the games that you know Purdue pharmaceutical we're playing around oxyc pharmaceutical we're playing around oxyc pharmaceutical we're playing around oxyc content that caused this here they are content that caused this here they are content that caused this here they are we can there's a pattern here we can we can there's a pattern here we can we can there's a pattern here we can here's the strategy of the enemy here's here's the strategy of the enemy here's here's the strategy of the enemy here's the strategy here's what it tells us the strategy here's what it tells us the strategy here's what it tells us here's how we can defend it next time here's how we can defend it next time here's how we can defend it next time it's not this black box that we're it's not this black box that we're it's not this black box that we're there's no reason in other words to be there's no reason in other words to be there's no reason in other words to be passive I think I think what the book is

passive I think I think what the book is passive I think I think what the book is really addressing is the tendency to really addressing is the tendency to really addressing is the tendency to want to curl up into a little ball want to curl up into a little ball want to curl up into a little ball and say this something I can do and I and say this something I can do and I and say this something I can do and I think there's always something you can think there's always something you can think there's always something you can do and so each one of these chapters is do and so each one of these chapters is do and so each one of these chapters is an invitation to I think a more kind of an invitation to I think a more kind of an invitation to I think a more kind of um positive response to the world a kind um positive response to the world a kind um positive response to the world a kind of uh proactive response to the world um of uh proactive response to the world um of uh proactive response to the world um you know the that long chapter on kind you know the that long chapter on kind you know the that long chapter on kind of the fun chapter on why does Harvard of the fun chapter on why does Harvard of the fun chapter on why does Harvard have a women's rugby team is you know have a women's rugby team is you know have a women's rugby team is you know it's like it tells you something it's it's like it tells you something it's it's like it tells you something it's like here's what they're doing here's like here's what they're doing here's like here's what they're doing here's why they're doing it draw your own why they're doing it draw your own why they're doing it draw your own conclusions maybe your conclusion should conclusions maybe your conclusion should conclusions maybe your conclusion should be I'm GNA stop venerating Harvard be I'm GNA stop venerating Harvard be I'm GNA stop venerating Harvard University in the way I did before and University in the way I did before and University in the way I did before and that would be a very useful thing to that would be a very useful thing to that would be a very useful thing to come out of it it's not a C I'm not come out of it it's not a C I'm not come out of it it's not a C I'm not being cynical I'm just saying I'm not being cynical I'm just saying I'm not being cynical I'm just saying I'm not being despairing I'm not being I'm just being despairing I'm not being I'm just being despairing I'm not being I'm just saying look what they're doing right saying look what they're doing right saying look what they're doing right they're playing a game here like just be they're playing a game here like just be they're playing a game here like just be aware of the game and adjust your your aware of the game and adjust your your aware of the game and adjust your your uh your expectations uh your expectations uh your expectations accordingly what is one thing you wish accordingly what is one thing you wish accordingly what is one thing you wish somebody would ask you about that nobody somebody would ask you about that nobody somebody would ask you about that nobody ever asks you about you get a lot of questions fired about you get a lot of questions fired your way I get a lot of questions fire your way I get a lot of questions fire your way I get a lot of questions fire well which of my which of the ideas that well which of my which of the ideas that well which of my which of the ideas that I hold are bad ideas okay that's a great I hold are bad ideas okay that's a great I hold are bad ideas okay that's a great one one one which of the ideas you hold are bad which of the ideas you hold are bad which of the ideas you hold are bad ideas Malcolm um I uh I have a ideas Malcolm um I uh I have a ideas Malcolm um I uh I have a long-standing a verion to air

long-standing a verion to air long-standing a verion to air conditioning I believe the world will be conditioning I believe the world will be conditioning I believe the world will be better off with no air conditioning better off with no air conditioning better off with no air conditioning which I recognize is a bad idea but I which I recognize is a bad idea but I which I recognize is a bad idea but I will hold to it nonetheless um are are will hold to it nonetheless um are are will hold to it nonetheless um are are you sweltering during this podcast or is you sweltering during this podcast or is you sweltering during this podcast or is this pushing I'm sadly in a air this pushing I'm sadly in a air this pushing I'm sadly in a air conditioned place I would rather I would conditioned place I would rather I would conditioned place I would rather I would not um no that's of a trivial example I not um no that's of a trivial example I not um no that's of a trivial example I think I think I think I am uh am uh am uh uh I'm a running snob that's a bad thing uh I'm a running snob that's a bad thing uh I'm a running snob that's a bad thing um I I have a belief that someone is a um I I have a belief that someone is a um I I have a belief that someone is a good athlete that makes them a better good athlete that makes them a better good athlete that makes them a better person oh really just wrong uhuh it's person oh really just wrong uhuh it's person oh really just wrong uhuh it's wrong it's a bad idea I just can't help wrong it's a bad idea I just can't help wrong it's a bad idea I just can't help I can't shake it's a kind of it's this I can't shake it's a kind of it's this I can't shake it's a kind of it's this weird thing if you're too heavily into weird thing if you're too heavily into weird thing if you're too heavily into sports as I am there's a point where you sports as I am there's a point where you sports as I am there's a point where you cross over and you come to think of cross over and you come to think of cross over and you come to think of physical Talent as a form of virtue h physical Talent as a form of virtue h physical Talent as a form of virtue h and it's an in it is an incredibly and it's an in it is an incredibly and it's an in it is an incredibly pernicious idea and it leads you astray pernicious idea and it leads you astray pernicious idea and it leads you astray in all kinds of subtle ways you don't in all kinds of subtle ways you don't in all kinds of subtle ways you don't understand but um and I I recognize that understand but um and I I recognize that understand but um and I I recognize that in myself but I can't really stop it I in myself but I can't really stop it I in myself but I can't really stop it I just sort of think oh so and so ran a just sort of think oh so and so ran a just sort of think oh so and so ran a two hour and six minute Marathon they two hour and six minute Marathon they two hour and six minute Marathon they must be really smart and interesting I I must be really smart and interesting I I must be really smart and interesting I I literally I literally think that so that literally I literally think that so that literally I literally think that so that the more fit you are particularly in the more fit you are particularly in the more fit you are particularly in running the more virtuous you are as a running the more virtuous you are as a running the more virtuous you are as a human being I I often I have joked that human being I I often I have joked that human being I I often I have joked that if I ran a um Holly selective Elite if I ran a um Holly selective Elite if I ran a um Holly selective Elite University I would only let in people University I would only let in people University I would only let in people who could um run under certain like a

who could um run under certain like a who could um run under certain like a 530 Mile and I would just say I think it be Mile and I would just say I think it be a better school if everyone could run no a better school if everyone could run no a better school if everyone could run no point of fact that is completely utterly point of fact that is completely utterly point of fact that is completely utterly false but I do I do actually believe false but I do I do actually believe false but I do I do actually believe that isn't that interesting any other that isn't that interesting any other that isn't that interesting any other ideas anything I mean you you're ideas anything I mean you you're ideas anything I mean you you're revisiting the Tipping Point I heard you revisiting the Tipping Point I heard you revisiting the Tipping Point I heard you oh what was it when you did the mon oh what was it when you did the mon oh what was it when you did the mon debate in Toronto a few years ago you debate in Toronto a few years ago you debate in Toronto a few years ago you know it didn't go particularly well that know it didn't go particularly well that know it didn't go particularly well that was Terri it was it was not of my best was Terri it was it was not of my best was Terri it was it was not of my best was it Douglas Murray you were up up God was it Douglas Murray you were up up God was it Douglas Murray you were up up God yeah somebody somebody warned me about yeah somebody somebody warned me about yeah somebody somebody warned me about him I should have listened anyway yes him I should have listened anyway yes him I should have listened anyway yes read badly but what you did was you did read badly but what you did was you did read badly but what you did was you did a podcast series on how you blew the a podcast series on how you blew the a podcast series on how you blew the debate and what you might do differently debate and what you might do differently debate and what you might do differently and didn't you put yourself through like and didn't you put yourself through like and didn't you put yourself through like a a debating or a public speaking course a a debating or a public speaking course a a debating or a public speaking course or something like that I did I went I or something like that I did I went I or something like that I did I went I went and got school on how to be a went and got school on how to be a went and got school on how to be a better better better debat are there any viig ideas like debat are there any viig ideas like debat are there any viig ideas like that's a that's a doover moment you wish that's a that's a doover moment you wish that's a that's a doover moment you wish you had back are there any big Ideas you had back are there any big Ideas you had back are there any big Ideas you've written about or publicly uh you've written about or publicly uh you've written about or publicly uh shared over the years that you're like shared over the years that you're like shared over the years that you're like oh I think I was wrong on oh I think I was wrong on oh I think I was wrong on that yeah although you know it's funny that yeah although you know it's funny that yeah although you know it's funny you the debate I wouldn't have said I you the debate I wouldn't have said I you the debate I wouldn't have said I regretted screwing up in the monk debate regretted screwing up in the monk debate regretted screwing up in the monk debate I'm actually glad I screwed up I'm actually glad I screwed up I'm actually glad I screwed up because it's had I not screwed up because it's had I not screwed up because it's had I not screwed up suppose I had just done a standard suppose I had just done a standard suppose I had just done a standard debate suppose we had won I would have debate suppose we had won I would have debate suppose we had won I would have taken away nothing from the taken away nothing from the taken away nothing from the experience it would not have been an experience it would not have been an experience it would not have been an opportunity to be by the way if I'd opportunity to be by the way if I'd opportunity to be by the way if I'd spent like two more hours preparing I

spent like two more hours preparing I spent like two more hours preparing I could have done fine I just didn't could have done fine I just didn't could have done fine I just didn't properly prepare didn't think about it properly prepare didn't think about it properly prepare didn't think about it proper way so if I done that I wouldn't proper way so if I done that I wouldn't proper way so if I done that I wouldn't have done any soul searching I wouldn't have done any soul searching I wouldn't have done any soul searching I wouldn't have gone and had someone teach me about have gone and had someone teach me about have gone and had someone teach me about debating I wouldn't be a better debator debating I wouldn't be a better debator debating I wouldn't be a better debator as result I mean nothing would have as result I mean nothing would have as result I mean nothing would have happened it was only because I screwed happened it was only because I screwed happened it was only because I screwed up that I took steps to improve my up that I took steps to improve my up that I took steps to improve my performance so I I'm actually grateful performance so I I'm actually grateful performance so I I'm actually grateful in the grand scheme of things I'm in the grand scheme of things I'm in the grand scheme of things I'm grateful has screwed up but you learn grateful has screwed up but you learn grateful has screwed up but you learn more from your mistakes than once you more from your mistakes than once you more from your mistakes than once you recognize you learn more from your recognize you learn more from your recognize you learn more from your Stakes than you do from your successes Stakes than you do from your successes Stakes than you do from your successes you realize actually it's probably you realize actually it's probably you realize actually it's probably really really useful to screw up every really really useful to screw up every really really useful to screw up every now and again and if you're going to now and again and if you're going to now and again and if you're going to screw up screw up big so you're forced screw up screw up big so you're forced screw up screw up big so you're forced to yeah well you did it publicly too to yeah well you did it publicly too to yeah well you did it publicly too right which is which is but then you right which is which is but then you right which is which is but then you took your learning and your lessons took your learning and your lessons took your learning and your lessons public too which I really admire I public too which I really admire I public too which I really admire I thought that was that was brilliant that thought that was that was brilliant that thought that was that was brilliant that was uh I do think um if you look at the was uh I do think um if you look at the was uh I do think um if you look at the if you read all of my books I've been if you read all of my books I've been if you read all of my books I've been having an argument with myself about having an argument with myself about having an argument with myself about crime for the last 25 years um crime for the last 25 years um crime for the last 25 years um about um and every time I think about about um and every time I think about about um and every time I think about crime I think about it I I reexamine crime I think about it I I reexamine crime I think about it I I reexamine what I believe and I come up with a new what I believe and I come up with a new what I believe and I come up with a new I can't it's a subject it's so I'm sort I can't it's a subject it's so I'm sort I can't it's a subject it's so I'm sort of obsessed with crime and how to stop of obsessed with crime and how to stop of obsessed with crime and how to stop it and its consequences and I I'm it and its consequences and I I'm it and its consequences and I I'm continually impressed continually impressed continually impressed by how easy it is to jump to conclusions by how easy it is to jump to conclusions by how easy it is to jump to conclusions how often I have been wrong in the how often I have been wrong in the how often I have been wrong in the prescriptions I've given and how the prescriptions I've given and how the prescriptions I've given and how the only honest position

only honest position only honest position is is is uh it's it you cannot be you cannot be uh it's it you cannot be you cannot be uh it's it you cannot be you cannot be it's a it's a mistake to be certain it's a it's a mistake to be certain it's a it's a mistake to be certain about this subject that it's there are about this subject that it's there are about this subject that it's there are so many different and deep roots to why so many different and deep roots to why so many different and deep roots to why people would behave and a uh in why people would behave and a uh in why people would behave and a uh in why people would commit crimes that you people would commit crimes that you people would commit crimes that you can't just have a simple prescription um can't just have a simple prescription um can't just have a simple prescription um the only other the only thing can be the only other the only thing can be the only other the only thing can be said with certainty is that we don't do said with certainty is that we don't do said with certainty is that we don't do a very good job of dealing with it a very good job of dealing with it a very good job of dealing with it that's all I can say with certainty but that's all I can say with certainty but that's all I can say with certainty but I but I have been at various times in my I but I have been at various times in my I but I have been at various times in my life I would not have been life I would not have been life I would not have been that I would have said oh no no here's that I would have said oh no no here's that I would have said oh no no here's the way to do it oh yeah this is the and the way to do it oh yeah this is the and the way to do it oh yeah this is the and I you know the process of the last 25 I you know the process of the last 25 I you know the process of the last 25 years of this debate I've been having years of this debate I've been having years of this debate I've been having with myself has been a steady retreat with myself has been a steady retreat with myself has been a steady retreat from certainty um that's I think uh you from certainty um that's I think uh you from certainty um that's I think uh you know even I go home to Ontario and in know even I go home to Ontario and in know even I go home to Ontario and in Kish Wu the um on the police cars it Kish Wu the um on the police cars it Kish Wu the um on the police cars it says on the slogan on the back is people says on the slogan on the back is people says on the slogan on the back is people helping people oh wow which I love but helping people oh wow which I love but helping people oh wow which I love but then I said to then I said to then I said to myself I love that I love that sentiment myself I love that I love that sentiment myself I love that I love that sentiment but also it is an awful lot easier to be but also it is an awful lot easier to be but also it is an awful lot easier to be a police officer in keso woo than it is a police officer in keso woo than it is a police officer in keso woo than it is in the American South think about the in the American South think about the in the American South think about the historical Legacy you're dealing with historical Legacy you're dealing with historical Legacy you're dealing with think about the public institutions think about the public institutions think about the public institutions think about the quality of the schools think about the quality of the schools think about the quality of the schools think about the the mix of you know woo think about the the mix of you know woo think about the the mix of you know woo is a place filled with like people who

is a place filled with like people who is a place filled with like people who came from all over the world to make came from all over the world to make came from all over the world to make their lives better they're not like their lives better they're not like their lives better they're not like shooting each other in drunk and rages shooting each other in drunk and rages shooting each other in drunk and rages like it's just a different world so do I like it's just a different world so do I like it's just a different world so do I know whether I look at people helping know whether I look at people helping know whether I look at people helping helping people I think well look there's helping people I think well look there's helping people I think well look there's something beautiful here about the way something beautiful here about the way something beautiful here about the way policing is conceptualized but even if policing is conceptualized but even if policing is conceptualized but even if that's true that doesn't answer the that's true that doesn't answer the that's true that doesn't answer the question of why there's so so much lower question of why there's so so much lower question of why there's so so much lower crime rate in kitoo than there is in crime rate in kitoo than there is in crime rate in kitoo than there is in Birmingham Alabama right so I'm just Birmingham Alabama right so I'm just Birmingham Alabama right so I'm just like everything every time you examine like everything every time you examine like everything every time you examine the issue I think you come away the issue I think you come away the issue I think you come away humbled and saying I don't it's just a humbled and saying I don't it's just a humbled and saying I don't it's just a tiny piece of this incredibly complex tiny piece of this incredibly complex tiny piece of this incredibly complex Mosaic you know the dominant culture in Mosaic you know the dominant culture in Mosaic you know the dominant culture in kishna waloo is menites preaching kishna waloo is menites preaching kishna waloo is menites preaching pacifism you don't think that has an pacifism you don't think that has an pacifism you don't think that has an effect on the crime rateing yeah right effect on the crime rateing yeah right effect on the crime rateing yeah right like yeah you know if if we could like yeah you know if if we could like yeah you know if if we could magically move every metanite from the magically move every metanite from the magically move every metanite from the KW area to various places around the KW area to various places around the KW area to various places around the world don't you think that would lower world don't you think that would lower world don't you think that would lower the crime rate the crime rate the crime rate yes you have a third grade teacher whose yes you have a third grade teacher whose yes you have a third grade teacher whose name is like you name is like you name is like you know uh Brenda bomman you don't think know uh Brenda bomman you don't think know uh Brenda bomman you don't think Brenda bom gives you a different view of Brenda bom gives you a different view of Brenda bom gives you a different view of the world than someone who comes from a the world than someone who comes from a the world than someone who comes from a culture that never even thought about culture that never even thought about culture that never even thought about nonviolence right like that's like so nonviolence right like that's like so nonviolence right like that's like so like I don't know what to do with my like I don't know what to do with my like I don't know what to do with my point like the more you learn the more point like the more you learn the more point like the more you learn the more you just think it's comp at you just think it's comp at you just think it's comp at and people who tell you they know what and people who tell you they know what and people who tell you they know what the solution is are probably wrong well the solution is are probably wrong well the solution is are probably wrong well what you've done so beautifully Malcolm what you've done so beautifully Malcolm what you've done so beautifully Malcolm is you've set yourself up by holding is you've set yourself up by holding is you've set yourself up by holding your ideas Loosely and being willing to

your ideas Loosely and being willing to your ideas Loosely and being willing to go oh you know what I'm not so sure what go oh you know what I'm not so sure what go oh you know what I'm not so sure what I said 20 years ago 10 years ago five I said 20 years ago 10 years ago five I said 20 years ago 10 years ago five years ago is is maybe the right take on years ago is is maybe the right take on years ago is is maybe the right take on it and here's another take or you know it and here's another take or you know it and here's another take or you know you're holding it Loosely I think the you're holding it Loosely I think the you're holding it Loosely I think the Trap that's so easy for us to fall into Trap that's so easy for us to fall into Trap that's so easy for us to fall into for those of us who ever have a for those of us who ever have a for those of us who ever have a microphone in front of us or you know microphone in front of us or you know microphone in front of us or you know are preaching on a weekend or holding a are preaching on a weekend or holding a are preaching on a weekend or holding a position of leadership is that we feel position of leadership is that we feel position of leadership is that we feel Shackled to our ideas in other words I Shackled to our ideas in other words I Shackled to our ideas in other words I said this 5 years ago I said this 10 said this 5 years ago I said this 10 said this 5 years ago I said this 10 years ago I'm not sure I believe it years ago I'm not sure I believe it years ago I'm not sure I believe it anymore but I said it 10 years ago and I anymore but I said it 10 years ago and I anymore but I said it 10 years ago and I don't want to be publicly wrong or don't want to be publicly wrong or don't want to be publicly wrong or contradict myself so I'm just going to contradict myself so I'm just going to contradict myself so I'm just going to hold to it and that of course just hold to it and that of course just hold to it and that of course just becomes less and less tenable as time becomes less and less tenable as time becomes less and less tenable as time goes on and it creates a a great goes on and it creates a a great goes on and it creates a a great dissonance in us I'm curious are you dissonance in us I'm curious are you dissonance in us I'm curious are you naturally wired that way or is that naturally wired that way or is that naturally wired that way or is that something you had to develop or something you had to develop or something you had to develop or intentionally commit to to say I'm gonna intentionally commit to to say I'm gonna intentionally commit to to say I'm gonna hold some of my big Ideas which have hold some of my big Ideas which have hold some of my big Ideas which have sold millions of copies Loosely yeah uh sold millions of copies Loosely yeah uh sold millions of copies Loosely yeah uh well I think if I had to be totally well I think if I had to be totally well I think if I had to be totally honest I would say that honest I would say that honest I would say that I believe it's way more fun to hold your I believe it's way more fun to hold your I believe it's way more fun to hold your ideas Lucy and I also believe it's ideas Lucy and I also believe it's ideas Lucy and I also believe it's highly it's the right thing to do it's highly it's the right thing to do it's highly it's the right thing to do it's functional it's ethically correct it has functional it's ethically correct it has functional it's ethically correct it has all kinds of broader but fundamentally all kinds of broader but fundamentally all kinds of broader but fundamentally for me the motivation was for me the motivation was for me the motivation was that it's boring to make up your mind that it's boring to make up your mind that it's boring to make up your mind and stick to it forever on issues that and stick to it forever on issues that and stick to it forever on issues that are ever changing right why would it are ever changing right why would it are ever changing right why would it just struck me as like I actually just struck me as like I actually just struck me as like I actually Delight

Delight Delight in learning something that upends my in learning something that upends my in learning something that upends my worldview because it's it's like worldview because it's it's like worldview because it's it's like everything's fresh again it's like the everything's fresh again it's like the everything's fresh again it's like the you know it's like a kids why do kids you know it's like a kids why do kids you know it's like a kids why do kids love etes sketch remember etes sketch love etes sketch remember etes sketch love etes sketch remember etes sketch yeah yeah they love it because you shake yeah yeah they love it because you shake yeah yeah they love it because you shake it and you give a brand new screen again it and you give a brand new screen again it and you give a brand new screen again and I watch my daughter with etra Sketch and I watch my daughter with etra Sketch and I watch my daughter with etra Sketch and like the fun part and like the fun part and like the fun part is it's the most fun thing is not the is it's the most fun thing is not the is it's the most fun thing is not the drawing on the ET sketch the most fun drawing on the ET sketch the most fun drawing on the ET sketch the most fun thing is getting rid of the drawing on thing is getting rid of the drawing on thing is getting rid of the drawing on the Ed sketch you draw so you get rid of the Ed sketch you draw so you get rid of the Ed sketch you draw so you get rid of it like that's that's what's driving it like that's that's what's driving it like that's that's what's driving right that's the motivation there it's right that's the motivation there it's right that's the motivation there it's like f let's let's let's mess it up and like f let's let's let's mess it up and like f let's let's let's mess it up and start over and like the look of Glee on start over and like the look of Glee on start over and like the look of Glee on her face when she's her face when she's her face when she's like right like that's that's the thing like right like that's that's the thing like right like that's that's the thing that I agree with that's I'm I'm with that I agree with that's I'm I'm with that I agree with that's I'm I'm with her on that like let's shake it and her on that like let's shake it and her on that like let's shake it and maybe you draw the exact same thing maybe you draw the exact same thing maybe you draw the exact same thing maybe you decide the second time around maybe you decide the second time around maybe you decide the second time around the thing I did is the thing I want to the thing I did is the thing I want to the thing I did is the thing I want to redo fine but you're gonna re you're redo fine but you're gonna re you're redo fine but you're gonna re you're gonna like you're gonna shake it up and gonna like you're gonna shake it up and gonna like you're gonna shake it up and that's a kind of very very useful moment that's a kind of very very useful moment that's a kind of very very useful moment fun moment the freedom in that when you fun moment the freedom in that when you fun moment the freedom in that when you really think about it for the next really think about it for the next really think about it for the next couple of decades is couple of decades is couple of decades is fascinating yeah I mean really when you fascinating yeah I mean really when you fascinating yeah I mean really when you when you think about your next 20 years when you think about your next 20 years when you think about your next 20 years and what you're going to contributor I and what you're going to contributor I and what you're going to contributor I think about my next 20 years you know we think about my next 20 years you know we think about my next 20 years you know we have our values we have our beliefs we have our values we have our beliefs we have our values we have our beliefs we have the things that we hold dearly um have the things that we hold dearly um have the things that we hold dearly um but the ability to say I don't take but the ability to say I don't take but the ability to say I don't take myself too seriously I could be wrong oh myself too seriously I could be wrong oh myself too seriously I could be wrong oh why don't I learn something here why

why don't I learn something here why why don't I learn something here why don't I go on an unstructured inductive don't I go on an unstructured inductive don't I go on an unstructured inductive journey and see where it leads me and journey and see where it leads me and journey and see where it leads me and maybe I don't take a map and let's see maybe I don't take a map and let's see maybe I don't take a map and let's see what we discover I really really what we discover I really really what we discover I really really appreciate that framing appreciate that framing appreciate that framing H if there was one thing last question H if there was one thing last question H if there was one thing last question Malcolm that you wish the church would Malcolm that you wish the church would Malcolm that you wish the church would be doing differently right now in this be doing differently right now in this be doing differently right now in this moment what do you wish we would be moment what do you wish we would be moment what do you wish we would be doing differently right now I mean I don't know if I have an now I mean I don't know if I have an answer that is different from what answer that is different from what answer that is different from what people within the church have been people within the church have been people within the church have been saying but I think that uh meeting saying but I think that uh meeting saying but I think that uh meeting people where they are I it's a very kind people where they are I it's a very kind people where they are I it's a very kind of vague thing but the of vague thing but the of vague thing but the um the church used to be at the center um the church used to be at the center um the church used to be at the center of the of the of the culture it's not anymore culture it's not anymore culture it's not anymore and I can't keep pretending that it and I can't keep pretending that it and I can't keep pretending that it is um and I don't think that means is um and I don't think that means is um and I don't think that means changing what it's saying I think it changing what it's saying I think it changing what it's saying I think it means changing where it means changing where it means changing where it is is is um you know the that increasingly I come um you know the that increasingly I come um you know the that increasingly I come to think of the the notion of a big to think of the the notion of a big to think of the the notion of a big fancy church with huge carrying costs fancy church with huge carrying costs fancy church with huge carrying costs that meets that uses it once a week um that meets that uses it once a week um that meets that uses it once a week um is a an anachronistic notion that was is a an anachronistic notion that was is a an anachronistic notion that was worked fine in the 18th century and the worked fine in the 18th century and the worked fine in the 18th century and the 19th century is that really where we 19th century is that really where we 19th century is that really where we want to be in the 21st um It's that kind want to be in the 21st um It's that kind want to be in the 21st um It's that kind of thing um because I don't think the of thing um because I don't think the of thing um because I don't think the relevance of the the message is more

relevance of the the message is more relevance of the the message is more relevant than ever it's just the it's relevant than ever it's just the it's relevant than ever it's just the it's the delivery is um is a little bit um the delivery is um is a little bit um the delivery is um is a little bit um seems to me hasn't kept pace with um seems to me hasn't kept pace with um seems to me hasn't kept pace with um with uh the way the the culture has with uh the way the the culture has with uh the way the the culture has moved that would be my like I said I moved that would be my like I said I moved that would be my like I said I don't think that's an original statement don't think that's an original statement don't think that's an original statement but no but that's that's helpful and but no but that's that's helpful and but no but that's that's helpful and there are young leaders listening who there are young leaders listening who there are young leaders listening who are ready to go off the map and wonder are ready to go off the map and wonder are ready to go off the map and wonder where it takes them and yeah take the where it takes them and yeah take the where it takes them and yeah take the message in fresh directions I did a message in fresh directions I did a message in fresh directions I did a podcast episode last year on this guy podcast episode last year on this guy podcast episode last year on this guy who's the president of Hope College a who's the president of Hope College a who's the president of Hope College a religious College in Michigan and who um religious College in Michigan and who um religious College in Michigan and who um took over and the first question he took over and the first question he took over and the first question he asked was asked was asked was um what would our College look like if um what would our College look like if um what would our College look like if we we we took Jesus Jesus teaching seriously and took Jesus Jesus teaching seriously and took Jesus Jesus teaching seriously and his answer was uh he wants to make his answer was uh he wants to make his answer was uh he wants to make college college college free um to find a way to decouple free um to find a way to decouple free um to find a way to decouple economic um necessity from an education economic um necessity from an education economic um necessity from an education and he's embarked on this big massive and he's embarked on this big massive and he's embarked on this big massive campaign of but what's that's the campaign of but what's that's the campaign of but what's that's the example of what I'm talking about he was example of what I'm talking about he was example of what I'm talking about he was like your college should represent what like your college should represent what like your college should represent what you believe to be the most important you believe to be the most important you believe to be the most important thing in Christian teaching it shouldn't thing in Christian teaching it shouldn't thing in Christian teaching it shouldn't it's not a Sunday thing it's a school it's not a Sunday thing it's a school it's not a Sunday thing it's a school year thing um and they should have an year thing um and they should have an year thing um and they should have an engage M with the people who graduate engage M with the people who graduate engage M with the people who graduate from this school for the rest of their from this school for the rest of their from this school for the rest of their lives based around that notion so like lives based around that notion so like lives based around that notion so like that that's what I mean that that's what I mean that that's what I mean by someone who's who is moved who has by someone who's who is moved who has by someone who's who is moved who has moved to teaching to where the culture moved to teaching to where the culture moved to teaching to where the culture is it's

is it's is it's like that you know it's that and I have like that you know it's that and I have like that you know it's that and I have enor I don't know whether he'll succeed enor I don't know whether he'll succeed enor I don't know whether he'll succeed or not but I guy Nam Matthew scoggan at or not but I guy Nam Matthew scoggan at or not but I guy Nam Matthew scoggan at Hope College I just have enormous by way Hope College I just have enormous by way Hope College I just have enormous by way you should have him on your podcast okay you should have him on your podcast okay you should have him on your podcast okay I'll have to look I don't think I heard I'll have to look I don't think I heard I'll have to look I don't think I heard that episode It's called um it's about that episode It's called um it's about that episode It's called um it's about Hope College s c o g i n uh and he's uh Hope College s c o g i n uh and he's uh Hope College s c o g i n uh and he's uh he's just brilliant I love him oh cool he's just brilliant I love him oh cool he's just brilliant I love him oh cool yeah well that's new to yeah well that's new to yeah well that's new to me Malcolm I can't thank you enough this me Malcolm I can't thank you enough this me Malcolm I can't thank you enough this has been great I loved revenge of the has been great I loved revenge of the has been great I loved revenge of the Tipping Point uh I am very very excited Tipping Point uh I am very very excited Tipping Point uh I am very very excited to see that get out into the wild it's to see that get out into the wild it's to see that get out into the wild it's available Everywhere by the time this available Everywhere by the time this available Everywhere by the time this airs and uh if people want to follow you airs and uh if people want to follow you airs and uh if people want to follow you online these days where's a really good online these days where's a really good online these days where's a really good place to place to place to connect uh well I guess Twitter although connect uh well I guess Twitter although connect uh well I guess Twitter although I barely tweet not much i' your podcast I barely tweet not much i' your podcast I barely tweet not much i' your podcast my podcast revisionist history is the my podcast revisionist history is the my podcast revisionist history is the best place to keep keep in touch with me best place to keep keep in touch with me best place to keep keep in touch with me yes absolutely excellent uh Malcolm I yes absolutely excellent uh Malcolm I yes absolutely excellent uh Malcolm I can't thank you enough thank you so much can't thank you enough thank you so much can't thank you enough thank you so much thank you Carrie