Do You Have Chronic Anxiety? And the Complexity of Lead Pastors with Steve Cuss

Chronic anxiety has a gospel, and one of Chronic anxiety has a gospel, and one of it, two of its messages are, you can it, two of its messages are, you can it, two of its messages are, you can worry your way to peace, and it's all on worry your way to peace, and it's all on worry your way to peace, and it's all on me. I must, I must, I must. Welcome to me. I must, I must, I must. Welcome to me. I must, I must, I must. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, if you're like most people, you're just if you're like most people, you're just if you're like most people, you're just scrolling through, but if you subscribe, scrolling through, but if you subscribe, scrolling through, but if you subscribe, you will get an amazing array of you will get an amazing array of you will get an amazing array of world-class leaders, some of whom you world-class leaders, some of whom you world-class leaders, some of whom you know, some of whom you don't know, and know, some of whom you don't know, and know, some of whom you don't know, and you'll see this interview delivers you'll see this interview delivers you'll see this interview delivers almost from the get-go. I mean, we're almost from the get-go. I mean, we're almost from the get-go. I mean, we're going to talk about anxiety. Do you know going to talk about anxiety. Do you know going to talk about anxiety. Do you know you can have anxiety as multiple you can have anxiety as multiple you can have anxiety as multiple anxieties? We can talk about how to deal anxieties? We can talk about how to deal anxieties? We can talk about how to deal with that. What about people who get a with that. What about people who get a with that. What about people who get a kick out of kicking the lead pastor or kick out of kicking the lead pastor or kick out of kicking the lead pastor or the leader? And all the other stresses the leader? And all the other stresses the leader? And all the other stresses associated with leadership. Steve and I associated with leadership. Steve and I associated with leadership. Steve and I talk about that today. Hey, today's talk about that today. Hey, today's talk about that today. Hey, today's episode is brought to you by my episode is brought to you by my episode is brought to you by my preaching cheat sheet. So, if you preaching cheat sheet. So, if you preaching cheat sheet. So, if you communicate, if you're a preacher, or communicate, if you're a preacher, or communicate, if you're a preacher, or actually, if you just communicate, I've actually, if you just communicate, I've actually, if you just communicate, I've got a very simple, free download for got a very simple, free download for got a very simple, free download for you. It's 10 prompts that you can use to you. It's 10 prompts that you can use to you. It's 10 prompts that you can use to assess whether your message is ready to assess whether your message is ready to assess whether your message is ready to go before you deliver it. Uh 10,000 go before you deliver it. Uh 10,000 go before you deliver it. Uh 10,000 leaders plus are using it. You can leaders plus are using it. You can leaders plus are using it. You can download your free copy at download your free copy at download your free copy at preachingcheatsheet.com.

preachingcheatsheet.com. preachingcheatsheet.com. That's preachingcheatsheet.com. That's preachingcheatsheet.com. That's preachingcheatsheet.com. And today's episode is brought to you by And today's episode is brought to you by And today's episode is brought to you by BELAY. For an inside peek at how a BELAY. For an inside peek at how a BELAY. For an inside peek at how a virtual assistant can transform your virtual assistant can transform your virtual assistant can transform your life and work, BELAY is offering a free life and work, BELAY is offering a free life and work, BELAY is offering a free download of their resource, 25 Things a download of their resource, 25 Things a download of their resource, 25 Things a Pastor Can Delegate to an Assistant. Pastor Can Delegate to an Assistant. Pastor Can Delegate to an Assistant. Text my name, Carey, c a r e y, to Text my name, Carey, c a r e y, to Text my name, Carey, c a r e y, to 55123. You'll get your free download. 55123. You'll get your free download. 55123. You'll get your free download. That's Carey to 55123. And now, to That's Carey to 55123. And now, to That's Carey to 55123. And now, to today's conversation with Steve Cuss. today's conversation with Steve Cuss. today's conversation with Steve Cuss. Steve, it's really good to have you Steve, it's really good to have you Steve, it's really good to have you back. back. back. It's great to be back. Thanks, Carey. It's great to be back. Thanks, Carey. It's great to be back. Thanks, Carey. Yeah, as I've told you privately, Yeah, as I've told you privately, Yeah, as I've told you privately, you have changed my life in a lot of you have changed my life in a lot of you have changed my life in a lot of ways. You've been an incredible ways. You've been an incredible ways. You've been an incredible encouragement to me personally, and it's encouragement to me personally, and it's encouragement to me personally, and it's a pleasure to be back on your podcast. a pleasure to be back on your podcast. a pleasure to be back on your podcast. Well, it's these listeners, man. I mean, Well, it's these listeners, man. I mean, Well, it's these listeners, man. I mean, I got to tell you, like you got so I got to tell you, like you got so I got to tell you, like you got so overwhelmed the first time you were on overwhelmed the first time you were on overwhelmed the first time you were on the podcast, it literally changed your the podcast, it literally changed your the podcast, it literally changed your life. You're doing what you're doing now life. You're doing what you're doing now life. You're doing what you're doing now because so many leaders who are because so many leaders who are because so many leaders who are listening reached out. So, I just want listening reached out. So, I just want listening reached out. So, I just want to give a huge shout-out to the tribe to give a huge shout-out to the tribe to give a huge shout-out to the tribe that listens to this podcast. You guys that listens to this podcast. You guys that listens to this podcast. You guys take take take ridiculous action. We're really careful ridiculous action. We're really careful ridiculous action. We're really careful about who we have as guests on this about who we have as guests on this about who we have as guests on this podcast, really careful about the things podcast, really careful about the things podcast, really careful about the things we say. Um and you respond. So, that's we say. Um and you respond. So, that's we say. Um and you respond. So, that's that's insane. I just want to say thank that's insane. I just want to say thank that's insane. I just want to say thank you so much to all of the leaders. And you so much to all of the leaders. And you so much to all of the leaders. And Steve, obviously, that's a reflection on Steve, obviously, that's a reflection on Steve, obviously, that's a reflection on you, too, because you deliver so much you, too, because you deliver so much you, too, because you deliver so much value. I mean, value. I mean, value. I mean, you know, so many people struggle with you know, so many people struggle with you know, so many people struggle with anxiety now and you've spent the last anxiety now and you've spent the last anxiety now and you've spent the last few years coaching and counseling church few years coaching and counseling church few years coaching and counseling church leaders and leaders exclusively.

leaders and leaders exclusively. leaders and leaders exclusively. I would love to start by going over the I would love to start by going over the I would love to start by going over the top two to three issues, the frequent top two to three issues, the frequent top two to three issues, the frequent flyer issues, flyer issues, flyer issues, that you just keep seeing surfacing in that you just keep seeing surfacing in that you just keep seeing surfacing in leaders' lives lives. Oh, yeah. Yeah, leaders' lives lives. Oh, yeah. Yeah, leaders' lives lives. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what a great I love that question. I I what a great I love that question. I I what a great I love that question. I I think one of the top issues that I think think one of the top issues that I think think one of the top issues that I think we're just now starting to figure out we're just now starting to figure out we're just now starting to figure out more about is the way that, particularly more about is the way that, particularly more about is the way that, particularly pastors, wear multiple hats with every pastors, wear multiple hats with every pastors, wear multiple hats with every person every relationship. person every relationship. person every relationship. So, in 2018, my wife became a therapist. So, in 2018, my wife became a therapist. So, in 2018, my wife became a therapist. She She stopped being a school teacher, She She stopped being a school teacher, She She stopped being a school teacher, went back to school, became a therapist. went back to school, became a therapist. went back to school, became a therapist. She started a private practice. And I She started a private practice. And I She started a private practice. And I told her jokingly, I said, "Hey, I'm told her jokingly, I said, "Hey, I'm told her jokingly, I said, "Hey, I'm going to preach more guilt and shame going to preach more guilt and shame going to preach more guilt and shame from the pulpit, and that'll generate from the pulpit, and that'll generate from the pulpit, and that'll generate more clients for you. We'll have a whole more clients for you. We'll have a whole more clients for you. We'll have a whole circle of life thing, you know." circle of life thing, you know." circle of life thing, you know." Just induce some religious trauma on Just induce some religious trauma on Just induce some religious trauma on people? people? people? That's it. That's great. That's it. That's great. That's it. That's great. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. of her practice. Great strategy. of her practice. Great strategy. of her practice. Great strategy. And uh you know, of course, I'm teasing, And uh you know, of course, I'm teasing, And uh you know, of course, I'm teasing, but she said, "Oh, no, I'm not going to but she said, "Oh, no, I'm not going to but she said, "Oh, no, I'm not going to see anybody from our church." see anybody from our church." see anybody from our church." And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And she And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And she And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And she said, "Oh, it's it's unethical for a said, "Oh, it's it's unethical for a said, "Oh, it's it's unethical for a therapist in the state of Colorado to therapist in the state of Colorado to therapist in the state of Colorado to wear more than one hat with anybody. So, wear more than one hat with anybody. So, wear more than one hat with anybody. So, I can't if I have a hand a friend hat, I I can't if I have a hand a friend hat, I I can't if I have a hand a friend hat, I can't also be a therapist. If I, can't also be a therapist. If I, can't also be a therapist. If I, you know, if your daughter and my you know, if your daughter and my you know, if your daughter and my daughter are friends, that's too many daughter are friends, that's too many daughter are friends, that's too many hats." And I I just realized, man, hats." And I I just realized, man, hats." And I I just realized, man, pastors only ever wear multiple hats.

pastors only ever wear multiple hats. pastors only ever wear multiple hats. And uh so, to me, the the understanding And uh so, to me, the the understanding And uh so, to me, the the understanding of okay, which hats am I wearing with my of okay, which hats am I wearing with my of okay, which hats am I wearing with my people? It's always tempting for a people? It's always tempting for a people? It's always tempting for a leader to feel sorry for ourself, but leader to feel sorry for ourself, but leader to feel sorry for ourself, but it's also tricky for our people when I'm it's also tricky for our people when I'm it's also tricky for our people when I'm knocking on somebody's door. They don't knocking on somebody's door. They don't knocking on somebody's door. They don't know which hat is walking through the know which hat is walking through the know which hat is walking through the door. Is it the pastor, the fundraiser, door. Is it the pastor, the fundraiser, door. Is it the pastor, the fundraiser, the friend, you know? So it goes both the friend, you know? So it goes both the friend, you know? So it goes both ways. But then related to that, Carey, I ways. But then related to that, Carey, I ways. But then related to that, Carey, I think you and I both had this think you and I both had this think you and I both had this experience. I'm at home, my pastor hat experience. I'm at home, my pastor hat experience. I'm at home, my pastor hat is off, it's in the closet, and then a is off, it's in the closet, and then a is off, it's in the closet, and then a congregant comes over and they say, congregant comes over and they say, congregant comes over and they say, "Hey, while I'm here," "Hey, while I'm here," "Hey, while I'm here," and they've got a criticism, something and they've got a criticism, something and they've got a criticism, something they didn't like. I thought you were they didn't like. I thought you were they didn't like. I thought you were coming for dinner. Yeah. Or you I coming for dinner. Yeah. Or you I coming for dinner. Yeah. Or you I thought this was a friend hat. thought this was a friend hat. thought this was a friend hat. this was a friend visit. Yeah. this was a friend visit. Yeah. this was a friend visit. Yeah. Let Let me go get my pastor hat. And so Let Let me go get my pastor hat. And so Let Let me go get my pastor hat. And so I think one thing I'm encouraging uh I think one thing I'm encouraging uh I think one thing I'm encouraging uh particularly pastors to do is just count particularly pastors to do is just count particularly pastors to do is just count up how many minutes a week up how many minutes a week up how many minutes a week do you get to be exactly yourself? Do do you get to be exactly yourself? Do do you get to be exactly yourself? Do you just get to be you? No title, no you just get to be you? No title, no you just get to be you? No title, no vocation, and how many people in your vocation, and how many people in your vocation, and how many people in your life?

life? life? And for a lot of pastors, it's actually And for a lot of pastors, it's actually And for a lot of pastors, it's actually freakishly small. There's There's We freakishly small. There's There's We freakishly small. There's There's We struggle to find friendships where struggle to find friendships where struggle to find friendships where there's a single hat relationship. So I there's a single hat relationship. So I there's a single hat relationship. So I think that's a a big issue. Kind of think that's a a big issue. Kind of think that's a a big issue. Kind of related to that, the second dynamic I related to that, the second dynamic I related to that, the second dynamic I would say is we are still, after all would say is we are still, after all would say is we are still, after all these years, we are generally more these years, we are generally more these years, we are generally more focused on mission and others than focused on mission and others than focused on mission and others than ourself. ourself. ourself. And the idea of focusing on ourself And the idea of focusing on ourself And the idea of focusing on ourself feels very selfish to us. feels very selfish to us. feels very selfish to us. Yeah. Uh my whole thesis of my work is Yeah. Uh my whole thesis of my work is Yeah. Uh my whole thesis of my work is that the best thing a leader has to that the best thing a leader has to that the best thing a leader has to offer their people is a well self. offer their people is a well self. offer their people is a well self. And uh unfortunately, there's plenty of And uh unfortunately, there's plenty of And uh unfortunately, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. evidence to the contrary. evidence to the contrary. And particularly our Christian leaders And particularly our Christian leaders And particularly our Christian leaders listen to this, they they may be saying, listen to this, they they may be saying, listen to this, they they may be saying, "Well, you know, I think Jesus is the "Well, you know, I think Jesus is the "Well, you know, I think Jesus is the most important thing. I would just most important thing. I would just most important thing. I would just I would say, "Look, I'm going to put all I would say, "Look, I'm going to put all I would say, "Look, I'm going to put all my chips in on well self because the the my chips in on well self because the the my chips in on well self because the the leaders that offer Jesus when they're leaders that offer Jesus when they're leaders that offer Jesus when they're not well not well not well distort the gospel distort and do damage distort the gospel distort and do damage distort the gospel distort and do damage to the church. to the church. to the church. So I'm a big fan of a leader learning to So I'm a big fan of a leader learning to So I'm a big fan of a leader learning to know when they're well, when they're not know when they're well, when they're not know when they're well, when they're not well. Everybody wants to work with a well. Everybody wants to work with a well. Everybody wants to work with a well leader. Nobody wants to work with well leader. Nobody wants to work with well leader. Nobody wants to work with an unwell leader. Uh those would be two an unwell leader. Uh those would be two an unwell leader. Uh those would be two of the biggest issues I'd say.

of the biggest issues I'd say. of the biggest issues I'd say. Mhm. Let's go back to hats, Steve. I'm Mhm. Let's go back to hats, Steve. I'm Mhm. Let's go back to hats, Steve. I'm so glad you started there. so glad you started there. so glad you started there. That is purifying. I mean, I haven't That is purifying. I mean, I haven't That is purifying. I mean, I haven't been a pastor for a number of years now. been a pastor for a number of years now. been a pastor for a number of years now. You stepped out of the lead role as You stepped out of the lead role as You stepped out of the lead role as well. What are some differences you have well. What are some differences you have well. What are some differences you have noticed now that you're no longer the noticed now that you're no longer the noticed now that you're no longer the lead pastor? How have those roles, those lead pastor? How have those roles, those lead pastor? How have those roles, those expectations, expectations, expectations, those hats become clearer to you? those hats become clearer to you? those hats become clearer to you? It's been fascinating, Carey. I It's been fascinating, Carey. I It's been fascinating, Carey. I I was probably into this new role, this I was probably into this new role, this I was probably into this new role, this kind of consultant speaker role for 6 kind of consultant speaker role for 6 kind of consultant speaker role for 6 months, my wife said, and I'd been a months, my wife said, and I'd been a months, my wife said, and I'd been a pastor 26 years at this point. And my pastor 26 years at this point. And my pastor 26 years at this point. And my wife said, um how much has criticism wife said, um how much has criticism wife said, um how much has criticism reduced in your life now that you're in reduced in your life now that you're in reduced in your life now that you're in this new role? this new role? this new role? And and I said, And and I said, And and I said, well, it it wait, what? It's binary. well, it it wait, what? It's binary. well, it it wait, what? It's binary. It's gone from 100% to zero. Like, It's gone from 100% to zero. Like, It's gone from 100% to zero. Like, I get I get no criticism. And partly I get I get no criticism. And partly I get I get no criticism. And partly it's because I've kind of become it's because I've kind of become it's because I've kind of become everyone's favorite person when I'm in everyone's favorite person when I'm in everyone's favorite person when I'm in the room because I bring relief, you the room because I bring relief, you the room because I bring relief, you know, the guest speaker, all of those know, the guest speaker, all of those know, the guest speaker, all of those dynamics, but also my my tools bring dynamics, but also my my tools bring dynamics, but also my my tools bring relief to leaders. So, I'm usually quite relief to leaders. So, I'm usually quite relief to leaders. So, I'm usually quite enjoyed. Uh but, you know, I'm the same enjoyed. Uh but, you know, I'm the same enjoyed. Uh but, you know, I'm the same human that pastored my church.

human that pastored my church. human that pastored my church. But every church has a a small committed But every church has a a small committed But every church has a a small committed band of people that get their kicks out band of people that get their kicks out band of people that get their kicks out of kicking the leader. of kicking the leader. of kicking the leader. And I think for most of us we make the And I think for most of us we make the And I think for most of us we make the mistake of trying to win them over with mistake of trying to win them over with mistake of trying to win them over with our insight. our insight. our insight. I did that so many times. I I'd have I did that so many times. I I'd have I did that so many times. I I'd have somebody misunderstand me and I would somebody misunderstand me and I would somebody misunderstand me and I would just keep meeting with them and give just keep meeting with them and give just keep meeting with them and give them more insight, more explanation, not them more insight, more explanation, not them more insight, more explanation, not realizing they're not interested in my realizing they're not interested in my realizing they're not interested in my insight. They get their kicks out of insight. They get their kicks out of insight. They get their kicks out of kicking the leader. kicking the leader. kicking the leader. And I do think, you know, every leader And I do think, you know, every leader And I do think, you know, every leader has had this happen, whether you're a has had this happen, whether you're a has had this happen, whether you're a church leader or even marketplace, this church leader or even marketplace, this church leader or even marketplace, this is just what comes with leadership. is just what comes with leadership. is just what comes with leadership. But what's interesting to me is how we But what's interesting to me is how we But what's interesting to me is how we how cagey and protective we get. I found how cagey and protective we get. I found how cagey and protective we get. I found myself as a pastor myself as a pastor myself as a pastor like preemptively guarding myself like preemptively guarding myself like preemptively guarding myself against people. against people. against people. I remember once the chair of my elders I remember once the chair of my elders I remember once the chair of my elders texted me and she said, "We need to texted me and she said, "We need to texted me and she said, "We need to meet." That's all she put in the text, meet." That's all she put in the text, meet." That's all she put in the text, which is of course the dreaded text. which is of course the dreaded text. which is of course the dreaded text. Yeah, you don't sleep after a text like Yeah, you don't sleep after a text like Yeah, you don't sleep after a text like that. Right. Now, why is that? It's like that. Right. Now, why is that? It's like that. Right. Now, why is that? It's like why am I saying to myself, "I wonder if why am I saying to myself, "I wonder if why am I saying to myself, "I wonder if she knows that someone wants to give a she knows that someone wants to give a she knows that someone wants to give a quarter of a million dollars to the quarter of a million dollars to the quarter of a million dollars to the church." I never No. No, immediately I church." I never No. No, immediately I church." I never No. No, immediately I feel in trouble. That's because I've feel in trouble. That's because I've feel in trouble. That's because I've I've been kicked around so much by I've been kicked around so much by I've been kicked around so much by others, I start to project that onto others, I start to project that onto others, I start to project that onto good people. She's a great lady and we good people. She's a great lady and we good people. She's a great lady and we you know, it wasn't really related or you know, it wasn't really related or you know, it wasn't really related or wasn't in trouble, that's for sure. When wasn't in trouble, that's for sure. When wasn't in trouble, that's for sure. When we finally met, I was not in trouble.

we finally met, I was not in trouble. we finally met, I was not in trouble. But boy, my brain worked overtime. So But boy, my brain worked overtime. So But boy, my brain worked overtime. So I think that just understanding some of I think that just understanding some of I think that just understanding some of those dynamics can really help people be those dynamics can really help people be those dynamics can really help people be healthier as leaders. healthier as leaders. healthier as leaders. So not to leave a dangling thread when So not to leave a dangling thread when So not to leave a dangling thread when you get a text like that, you get a text like that, you get a text like that, is it okay to text back, "Hey, sure. I'd is it okay to text back, "Hey, sure. I'd is it okay to text back, "Hey, sure. I'd love to. What's up?" love to. What's up?" love to. What's up?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's always wise. Yeah, I think it's always wise. Yeah, I think it's always wise. in play? in play? in play? Yeah. Cuz that's what I do now. I don't Yeah. Cuz that's what I do now. I don't Yeah. Cuz that's what I do now. I don't let that stuff dangle. I'm like, "Can let that stuff dangle. I'm like, "Can let that stuff dangle. I'm like, "Can you tell me what it's about?" And maybe you tell me what it's about?" And maybe you tell me what it's about?" And maybe that's my anxiety, maybe that's my like that's my anxiety, maybe that's my like that's my anxiety, maybe that's my like I don't know. Now, getting your kicks I don't know. Now, getting your kicks I don't know. Now, getting your kicks out of kicking the leader. out of kicking the leader. out of kicking the leader. There's a phrase that'll preach. That There's a phrase that'll preach. That There's a phrase that'll preach. That that resonates. What? that resonates. What? that resonates. What? And you're saying you don't see it? I I And you're saying you don't see it? I I And you're saying you don't see it? I I mean, I get it because I have a public mean, I get it because I have a public mean, I get it because I have a public profile. I don't get a lot of it. I profile. I don't get a lot of it. I profile. I don't get a lot of it. I really really really relatively speaking, I think I'm in the relatively speaking, I think I'm in the relatively speaking, I think I'm in the bottom percentile of people who get bottom percentile of people who get bottom percentile of people who get criticized online, at least for now. And criticized online, at least for now. And criticized online, at least for now. And I'm I'm grateful for that, not I'm I'm grateful for that, not I'm I'm grateful for that, not ungrateful. ungrateful. ungrateful. What have you learned about people who What have you learned about people who What have you learned about people who get their kicks get their kicks get their kicks out of kicking the leader?

I think the biggest thing I've learned I think the biggest thing I've learned is less about them and more about my is less about them and more about my is less about them and more about my incessant need to be understood. Now incessant need to be understood. Now incessant need to be understood. Now obviously my field is chronic anxiety. obviously my field is chronic anxiety. obviously my field is chronic anxiety. Chronic anxiety is always based on a Chronic anxiety is always based on a Chronic anxiety is always based on a false need. There's all kinds of false need. There's all kinds of false need. There's all kinds of anxieties anxieties anxieties but chronic is based on a false need. but chronic is based on a false need. but chronic is based on a false need. What's fascinating about this particular What's fascinating about this particular What's fascinating about this particular kind of anxiety, it's probably better kind of anxiety, it's probably better kind of anxiety, it's probably better known as reactivity, known as reactivity, known as reactivity, is it acts like a real threat in the is it acts like a real threat in the is it acts like a real threat in the moment. So, you know, I grew up in moment. So, you know, I grew up in moment. So, you know, I grew up in Western Australia. We have nine of the Western Australia. We have nine of the Western Australia. We have nine of the 10 deadliest snakes in the world. 10 deadliest snakes in the world. 10 deadliest snakes in the world. Australia's You I know you just recently Australia's You I know you just recently Australia's You I know you just recently went there, Carrie. So beautiful, went there, Carrie. So beautiful, went there, Carrie. So beautiful, especially Were you in Perth? Perth. Did especially Were you in Perth? Perth. Did especially Were you in Perth? Perth. Did you get to Perth? Yeah. Come on. Frio you get to Perth? Yeah. Come on. Frio you get to Perth? Yeah. Come on. Frio Frio, man. Like come on. Frio, man. Like come on. Frio, man. Like come on. lives in Fremantle. Shout out to Tony lives in Fremantle. Shout out to Tony lives in Fremantle. Shout out to Tony and Martin in Fremantle. and Martin in Fremantle. and Martin in Fremantle. So good. I loved it. We can't wait to go So good. I loved it. We can't wait to go So good. I loved it. We can't wait to go back. Yeah. back. Yeah. back. Yeah. Yeah. But Australia's also a great place Yeah. But Australia's also a great place Yeah. But Australia's also a great place to die. You can die on the land, in the to die. You can die on the land, in the to die. You can die on the land, in the water. We can kill you off in so many water. We can kill you off in so many water. We can kill you off in so many ways. ways. ways. I didn't know that. Okay. I didn't know that. Okay. I didn't know that. Okay. So, nine of the 10 deadliest snakes. So, nine of the 10 deadliest snakes. So, nine of the 10 deadliest snakes. Well, there's a particular snake in Well, there's a particular snake in Well, there's a particular snake in Western Australia. It's in most of the Western Australia. It's in most of the Western Australia. It's in most of the country called a tiger snake and it's country called a tiger snake and it's country called a tiger snake and it's very aggressive. It'll come after you if very aggressive. It'll come after you if very aggressive. It'll come after you if you see it. Uh and so of course your you see it. Uh and so of course your you see it. Uh and so of course your body has a adrenal reaction when you see body has a adrenal reaction when you see body has a adrenal reaction when you see a tiger snake. Your brain gets really a tiger snake. Your brain gets really a tiger snake. Your brain gets really focused. You run for your life.

focused. You run for your life. focused. You run for your life. In my case, you squeal like a little In my case, you squeal like a little In my case, you squeal like a little boy. Like all kinds of things happen. boy. Like all kinds of things happen. boy. Like all kinds of things happen. But chronic anxiety is really sneaky. It But chronic anxiety is really sneaky. It But chronic anxiety is really sneaky. It It It acts like you're under threat as It It acts like you're under threat as It It acts like you're under threat as if you've seen a snake. So, when I'm if you've seen a snake. So, when I'm if you've seen a snake. So, when I'm with a with a with a what I call a usual suspect critic, what I call a usual suspect critic, what I call a usual suspect critic, whether you want to call him a usual whether you want to call him a usual whether you want to call him a usual suspect or frequent flyer. Like you want suspect or frequent flyer. Like you want suspect or frequent flyer. Like you want to give him a punch pass. You know, to give him a punch pass. You know, to give him a punch pass. You know, every nine punches I get to punch you. every nine punches I get to punch you. every nine punches I get to punch you. That was always my dream. That was always my dream. That was always my dream. I know it's not very Christian to say, I know it's not very Christian to say, I know it's not very Christian to say, but that That was my anger fantasy, but that That was my anger fantasy, but that That was my anger fantasy, Carrie. It's like I've tried to meet Carrie. It's like I've tried to meet Carrie. It's like I've tried to meet with you nine times. The 10th time, with you nine times. The 10th time, with you nine times. The 10th time, let's rumble. Nobody here is judging let's rumble. Nobody here is judging let's rumble. Nobody here is judging you. Yeah. Yeah. you. Yeah. Yeah. you. Yeah. Yeah. But in that moment, I had this incessant But in that moment, I had this incessant But in that moment, I had this incessant need to explain myself need to explain myself need to explain myself because I need to be understood. That's because I need to be understood. That's because I need to be understood. That's a false need. That's not a real need. I a false need. That's not a real need. I a false need. That's not a real need. I can thrive as a human and be can thrive as a human and be can thrive as a human and be misunderstood, but in the moment, my misunderstood, but in the moment, my misunderstood, but in the moment, my brain is telling me, "You must explain brain is telling me, "You must explain brain is telling me, "You must explain yourself. More insight from you will yourself. More insight from you will yourself. More insight from you will help them see." But they're not help them see." But they're not help them see." But they're not interested in my insight. So So it's interested in my insight. So So it's interested in my insight. So So it's less about them and it's more about my less about them and it's more about my less about them and it's more about my posture. This was really a game changer posture. This was really a game changer posture. This was really a game changer for me when I realized uh I can change for me when I realized uh I can change for me when I realized uh I can change my behavior and that won't change them, my behavior and that won't change them, my behavior and that won't change them, but it will change our dynamic. Mhm. And but it will change our dynamic. Mhm. And but it will change our dynamic. Mhm. And so for many of my usual suspects, they so for many of my usual suspects, they so for many of my usual suspects, they they were still at the church, but I did they were still at the church, but I did they were still at the church, but I did not give them my time or my heart or my not give them my time or my heart or my not give them my time or my heart or my vulnerability. I never met with them vulnerability. I never met with them vulnerability. I never met with them alone. I had a few behaviors once we alone. I had a few behaviors once we alone. I had a few behaviors once we kind of identified my usual suspects.

kind of identified my usual suspects. kind of identified my usual suspects. Okay, so you kind of put them in a box Okay, so you kind of put them in a box Okay, so you kind of put them in a box and didn't let them get to you. Back to and didn't let them get to you. Back to and didn't let them get to you. Back to the hats. I'm doing some research right the hats. I'm doing some research right the hats. I'm doing some research right now. I've done one talk on this now. I've done one talk on this now. I've done one talk on this topic in England earlier this year. topic in England earlier this year. topic in England earlier this year. Thinking about it for a new book, but Thinking about it for a new book, but Thinking about it for a new book, but I'm not using the metaphor hats, I'm not using the metaphor hats, I'm not using the metaphor hats, although that's a really good one, but although that's a really good one, but although that's a really good one, but I'm thinking about the complicated job I'm thinking about the complicated job I'm thinking about the complicated job description of a pastor. It's a It's a description of a pastor. It's a It's a description of a pastor. It's a It's a box of crazy, man, when you really look box of crazy, man, when you really look box of crazy, man, when you really look at it from the outside looking in. at it from the outside looking in. at it from the outside looking in. Can you say more about that because you Can you say more about that because you Can you say more about that because you have got either a lot of church leaders have got either a lot of church leaders have got either a lot of church leaders listening or people who are there to try listening or people who are there to try listening or people who are there to try to support church leaders, lay leaders, to support church leaders, lay leaders, to support church leaders, lay leaders, board members, entrepreneurs who care board members, entrepreneurs who care board members, entrepreneurs who care about the church space, and who probably about the church space, and who probably about the church space, and who probably care about their pastor, but what what care about their pastor, but what what care about their pastor, but what what makes you know, being a pastor the box makes you know, being a pastor the box makes you know, being a pastor the box of of crazy that sometimes it is? of of crazy that sometimes it is? of of crazy that sometimes it is? I hope you do write that book. I do I hope you do write that book. I do I hope you do write that book. I do think we need more appreciation for think we need more appreciation for think we need more appreciation for Yeah, and I think it is a depth and Yeah, and I think it is a depth and Yeah, and I think it is a depth and breadth issue. Yeah. Our mutual friend breadth issue. Yeah. Our mutual friend breadth issue. Yeah. Our mutual friend Glenn Packiam recently posted on Twitter Glenn Packiam recently posted on Twitter Glenn Packiam recently posted on Twitter his schedule for the day just as a lead his schedule for the day just as a lead his schedule for the day just as a lead lead pastor. He just posted on social lead pastor. He just posted on social lead pastor. He just posted on social media, "Here's what I did today." And I media, "Here's what I did today." And I media, "Here's what I did today." And I was reading it thinking, "Yep, we've all was reading it thinking, "Yep, we've all was reading it thinking, "Yep, we've all Anyone who's a lead pastor has had not Anyone who's a lead pastor has had not Anyone who's a lead pastor has had not just that day, just that day, just that day, but dozens or hundreds of that day. And but dozens or hundreds of that day. And but dozens or hundreds of that day. And in his case, it involved um in his case, it involved um in his case, it involved um uh I I may get some of the details uh I I may get some of the details uh I I may get some of the details wrong, so Glenn and Kerry, I apologize wrong, so Glenn and Kerry, I apologize wrong, so Glenn and Kerry, I apologize if my memory's faulty, but for example, if my memory's faulty, but for example, if my memory's faulty, but for example, having to attend to the sudden death of

having to attend to the sudden death of having to attend to the sudden death of a congregant. Mhm. And going to the a congregant. Mhm. And going to the a congregant. Mhm. And going to the house and caring for the family, and house and caring for the family, and house and caring for the family, and then managing the budget for the year, then managing the budget for the year, then managing the budget for the year, and then there was the board meeting uh and then there was the board meeting uh and then there was the board meeting uh and it just the breadth of skills and it just the breadth of skills and it just the breadth of skills required between knowing how to attend required between knowing how to attend required between knowing how to attend to somebody in their grief versus to somebody in their grief versus to somebody in their grief versus running a spreadsheet. I remember running a spreadsheet. I remember running a spreadsheet. I remember becoming a lead pastor and thinking, I becoming a lead pastor and thinking, I becoming a lead pastor and thinking, I just have to figure out how to do just have to figure out how to do just have to figure out how to do formulas on spreadsheets. Somebody has formulas on spreadsheets. Somebody has formulas on spreadsheets. Somebody has to figure this out. We were a small to figure this out. We were a small to figure this out. We were a small church plant, had to be me, and I spent church plant, had to be me, and I spent church plant, had to be me, and I spent like half a day researching back then like half a day researching back then like half a day researching back then the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. But if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be But if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be But if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be very good at my job in a small church, very good at my job in a small church, very good at my job in a small church, you know? So, the breadth is an issue, you know? So, the breadth is an issue, you know? So, the breadth is an issue, but then the depth is an issue. Like you but then the depth is an issue. Like you but then the depth is an issue. Like you ask the average pastor, ask the average pastor, ask the average pastor, "How many people do you know who are "How many people do you know who are "How many people do you know who are battling cancer or a life-threatening battling cancer or a life-threatening battling cancer or a life-threatening illness?" illness?" illness?" And your pastor's answer is going to be And your pastor's answer is going to be And your pastor's answer is going to be 10 times more than your average human's 10 times more than your average human's 10 times more than your average human's answer. Mhm. We just the breadth of what answer. Mhm. We just the breadth of what answer. Mhm. We just the breadth of what the human condition that comes at us the human condition that comes at us the human condition that comes at us is also tricky.

is also tricky. is also tricky. I think the other thing, Kerry, I don't I think the other thing, Kerry, I don't I think the other thing, Kerry, I don't know if this was your case, know if this was your case, know if this was your case, particularly when I was younger, I particularly when I was younger, I particularly when I was younger, I couldn't really tell the difference couldn't really tell the difference couldn't really tell the difference between the church's well-being and my between the church's well-being and my between the church's well-being and my well-being. Oh, yeah. I just merged and well-being. Oh, yeah. I just merged and well-being. Oh, yeah. I just merged and enmeshed with the church. If the church enmeshed with the church. If the church enmeshed with the church. If the church is good, I'm good. Mhm. is good, I'm good. Mhm. is good, I'm good. Mhm. Oh, everything personally. Yeah, 100%. Oh, everything personally. Yeah, 100%. Oh, everything personally. Yeah, 100%. you criticize the church, I felt it. So, you criticize the church, I felt it. So, you criticize the church, I felt it. So, I I do think like listen, I think every I I do think like listen, I think every I I do think like listen, I think every vocation has unique challenges. I don't vocation has unique challenges. I don't vocation has unique challenges. I don't particularly believe that pastors have particularly believe that pastors have particularly believe that pastors have it worse than others, it worse than others, it worse than others, but I do think understanding our unique but I do think understanding our unique but I do think understanding our unique challenges is really necessary to help challenges is really necessary to help challenges is really necessary to help us thrive. We haven't even got to the us thrive. We haven't even got to the us thrive. We haven't even got to the weekly deadlines. weekly deadlines. weekly deadlines. Oh yeah, just that that weekly Oh yeah, just that that weekly Oh yeah, just that that weekly production of a message. Yeah, that's production of a message. Yeah, that's production of a message. Yeah, that's there's a lot there's a lot there. there's a lot there's a lot there. there's a lot there's a lot there. There's a lot. Yeah, that's part of the There's a lot. Yeah, that's part of the There's a lot. Yeah, that's part of the research I'm doing to the impossible research I'm doing to the impossible research I'm doing to the impossible pressure of sermon prep, particularly in pressure of sermon prep, particularly in pressure of sermon prep, particularly in the age of social media and digital the age of social media and digital the age of social media and digital exposure. exposure. exposure. Yeah, I think there's something there. I Yeah, I think there's something there. I Yeah, I think there's something there. I want to go back to um I called it want to go back to um I called it want to go back to um I called it compassion fatigue. And I remember we compassion fatigue. And I remember we compassion fatigue. And I remember we weren't even at a thousand people on the weren't even at a thousand people on the weren't even at a thousand people on the weekend before my ability to number one weekend before my ability to number one weekend before my ability to number one track the number of people who were ill track the number of people who were ill track the number of people who were ill and number two feel something for the and number two feel something for the and number two feel something for the number of people who were ill hit number of people who were ill hit number of people who were ill hit capacity. And I don't know that I have a capacity. And I don't know that I have a capacity. And I don't know that I have a particularly large capacity for that. Uh particularly large capacity for that. Uh particularly large capacity for that. Uh I tend to be perhaps not as sensitive as I tend to be perhaps not as sensitive as I tend to be perhaps not as sensitive as the average shepherding church pastor.

the average shepherding church pastor. the average shepherding church pastor. I'll just say that. But what do you do I'll just say that. But what do you do I'll just say that. But what do you do with that? It's sort of like the news, with that? It's sort of like the news, with that? It's sort of like the news, right? Like I don't have the and and right? Like I don't have the and and right? Like I don't have the and and this goes back to Neil Postman, Amusing this goes back to Neil Postman, Amusing this goes back to Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death. This goes back to Ourselves to Death. This goes back to Ourselves to Death. This goes back to the invention of the telegraph when the invention of the telegraph when the invention of the telegraph when suddenly in Middle America you can know suddenly in Middle America you can know suddenly in Middle America you can know what the Queen of England did on a what the Queen of England did on a what the Queen of England did on a particular day. Um particular day. Um particular day. Um you know, which which really for most of you know, which which really for most of you know, which which really for most of human existence you had no idea. You had human existence you had no idea. You had human existence you had no idea. You had no idea what was going on, you know, if no idea what was going on, you know, if no idea what was going on, you know, if you were an indigenous person three you were an indigenous person three you were an indigenous person three tribes over. You just knew your tribe. tribes over. You just knew your tribe. tribes over. You just knew your tribe. Uh if you lived in a small village in in Uh if you lived in a small village in in Uh if you lived in a small village in in medieval Europe you probably didn't go medieval Europe you probably didn't go medieval Europe you probably didn't go more than 50 miles from your home and more than 50 miles from your home and more than 50 miles from your home and you knew the 200 people that you had to you knew the 200 people that you had to you knew the 200 people that you had to deal with every day. And now we live in deal with every day. And now we live in deal with every day. And now we live in this mass exposure of news and this mass exposure of news and this mass exposure of news and catastrophe and commercialization, catastrophe and commercialization, catastrophe and commercialization, commodification of a bad news. And then commodification of a bad news. And then commodification of a bad news. And then you have to lead people and you're you have to lead people and you're you have to lead people and you're supposed to track all of this. And I supposed to track all of this. And I supposed to track all of this. And I just found that it was not good for my just found that it was not good for my just found that it was not good for my soul and soul and soul and I don't know that I was wired to handle I don't know that I was wired to handle I don't know that I was wired to handle that well. What what's your take on that well. What what's your take on that well. What what's your take on that?

that? that? Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. I mean it's such a it's such a big I mean it's such a it's such a big I mean it's such a it's such a big question. You've You've got the question. You've You've got the question. You've You've got the challenges challenges challenges let me lob the universe your way, Steve. let me lob the universe your way, Steve. let me lob the universe your way, Steve. Go ahead, catch it. No, you've got the Go ahead, catch it. No, you've got the Go ahead, catch it. No, you've got the challenges within your congregation, and challenges within your congregation, and challenges within your congregation, and then you've also described these global then you've also described these global then you've also described these global issues. It It feels to me issues. It It feels to me issues. It It feels to me that there are a thousand things wrong that there are a thousand things wrong that there are a thousand things wrong with the world, and any local church can with the world, and any local church can with the world, and any local church can tackle eight of them. tackle eight of them. tackle eight of them. And so And I'm That's arbitrary. I may And so And I'm That's arbitrary. I may And so And I'm That's arbitrary. I may be wrong. And so we tried to focus on be wrong. And so we tried to focus on be wrong. And so we tried to focus on the eight we could really move the the eight we could really move the the eight we could really move the needle on, and we tried to sacrifice needle on, and we tried to sacrifice needle on, and we tried to sacrifice ourselves for those eight. ourselves for those eight. ourselves for those eight. And then the rest we generally left And then the rest we generally left And then the rest we generally left alone. What I struggle with with this alone. What I struggle with with this alone. What I struggle with with this part of the question, Carey, is part of the question, Carey, is part of the question, Carey, is as a person of privilege, it's I kind of as a person of privilege, it's I kind of as a person of privilege, it's I kind of have the privilege of ignoring the have the privilege of ignoring the have the privilege of ignoring the suffering. suffering. suffering. Yeah. Um but I was not ignoring all Yeah. Um but I was not ignoring all Yeah. Um but I was not ignoring all suffering. I was simply trying to lead suffering. I was simply trying to lead suffering. I was simply trying to lead us into the suffering that I believed we us into the suffering that I believed we us into the suffering that I believed we could actually do something about. And could actually do something about. And could actually do something about. And so in our particular church, we did so in our particular church, we did so in our particular church, we did local and global, and we went really local and global, and we went really local and global, and we went really deep with a few things.

deep with a few things. deep with a few things. What you're talking about though for a What you're talking about though for a What you're talking about though for a pastor, like to me, when I hear you say, pastor, like to me, when I hear you say, pastor, like to me, when I hear you say, "Look, I'm not really that shepherd." I "Look, I'm not really that shepherd." I "Look, I'm not really that shepherd." I think there's nothing wrong with that. think there's nothing wrong with that. think there's nothing wrong with that. Like Like Like some people like you get a bad rap some people like you get a bad rap some people like you get a bad rap nowadays. You know, this kind of nowadays. You know, this kind of nowadays. You know, this kind of corporate pastor. I am prone more to corporate pastor. I am prone more to corporate pastor. I am prone more to shepherding, and I thank God for people shepherding, and I thank God for people shepherding, and I thank God for people like you like you like you who are more prone to business and who are more prone to business and who are more prone to business and execution of vision, and I I just think execution of vision, and I I just think execution of vision, and I I just think the body of Christ needs a body of the body of Christ needs a body of the body of Christ needs a body of Christ of pastors. We need a Christ of pastors. We need a Christ of pastors. We need a a whole set of different pastors. And so a whole set of different pastors. And so a whole set of different pastors. And so uh the way you lead is better than the uh the way you lead is better than the uh the way you lead is better than the way I lead. But what what you're trying way I lead. But what what you're trying way I lead. But what what you're trying to look for is people like me who are to look for is people like me who are to look for is people like me who are prone to shepherding. That means we are prone to shepherding. That means we are prone to shepherding. That means we are prone to over-committing and enmeshing. prone to over-committing and enmeshing. prone to over-committing and enmeshing. Yeah. So I'm just always trying to set Yeah. So I'm just always trying to set Yeah. So I'm just always trying to set up a boundary, and then people like you up a boundary, and then people like you up a boundary, and then people like you who are probably more prone to vision who are probably more prone to vision who are probably more prone to vision and execution, I may be putting words in and execution, I may be putting words in and execution, I may be putting words in your mouth. No. your mouth. No. your mouth. No. You've got a boundary on the other side, You've got a boundary on the other side, You've got a boundary on the other side, which is you might maybe I don't know, which is you might maybe I don't know, which is you might maybe I don't know, Carey, you might detach a bit too Carey, you might detach a bit too Carey, you might detach a bit too quickly. Yep. quickly. Yep. quickly. Yep. And in the middle, there's actually a And in the middle, there's actually a And in the middle, there's actually a lot of posturing that can be done by lot of posturing that can be done by lot of posturing that can be done by both of us, which is simply both of us, which is simply both of us, which is simply listening to people long enough they listening to people long enough they listening to people long enough they feel seen and understood.

feel seen and understood. feel seen and understood. So, I am prone to try to fix So, I am prone to try to fix So, I am prone to try to fix uh uh uh because your anxiety is too much for me, because your anxiety is too much for me, because your anxiety is too much for me, so I need to shrink it down to make me so I need to shrink it down to make me so I need to shrink it down to make me feel better. That would be my simple way feel better. That would be my simple way feel better. That would be my simple way of saying it. of saying it. of saying it. You're prone You may be prone to kind of You're prone You may be prone to kind of You're prone You may be prone to kind of detach and say, "Well, someone else deal detach and say, "Well, someone else deal detach and say, "Well, someone else deal with it." But, both of us can actually with it." But, both of us can actually with it." But, both of us can actually step in, step in, step in, ask curious questions, connect, ask curious questions, connect, ask curious questions, connect, empathize, and it costs both of us very empathize, and it costs both of us very empathize, and it costs both of us very little to do that. little to do that. little to do that. I think that's one framework I didn't I think that's one framework I didn't I think that's one framework I didn't have. I think my natural wiring is I have. I think my natural wiring is I have. I think my natural wiring is I think I have the And some leaders think I have the And some leaders think I have the And some leaders listening will be able to identify with listening will be able to identify with listening will be able to identify with this. I think I'm better at caring for a this. I think I'm better at caring for a this. I think I'm better at caring for a thousand people than one person. In thousand people than one person. In thousand people than one person. In other words, I would think about, "Well, other words, I would think about, "Well, other words, I would think about, "Well, what's good for this larger group?" And what's good for this larger group?" And what's good for this larger group?" And I think I can probably figure out the I think I can probably figure out the I think I can probably figure out the law of averages, and we can probably go law of averages, and we can probably go law of averages, and we can probably go there. But, if there were too many ones there. But, if there were too many ones there. But, if there were too many ones in the way, it would stop caring for the in the way, it would stop caring for the in the way, it would stop caring for the thousand. So, but I think you're right. thousand. So, but I think you're right. thousand. So, but I think you're right. I think, you know, I think one of my I think, you know, I think one of my I think, you know, I think one of my questions for you was, "I don't seem to questions for you was, "I don't seem to questions for you was, "I don't seem to be a guy who struggles with anxiety." be a guy who struggles with anxiety." be a guy who struggles with anxiety." But, now we're going back to my But, now we're going back to my But, now we're going back to my pastoring.

pastoring. pastoring. So, I'm like, uh maybe that's not true So, I'm like, uh maybe that's not true So, I'm like, uh maybe that's not true because I would feel if someone came to because I would feel if someone came to because I would feel if someone came to me me me with cancer or some terrible diagnosis, with cancer or some terrible diagnosis, with cancer or some terrible diagnosis, I would feel that pressure. Like it was I would feel that pressure. Like it was I would feel that pressure. Like it was like I had to take on like I had to take on like I had to take on everything, all the pain, hospital everything, all the pain, hospital everything, all the pain, hospital visitations. Oh my gosh, I don't have visitations. Oh my gosh, I don't have visitations. Oh my gosh, I don't have time for this. I got, you know, this. time for this. I got, you know, this. time for this. I got, you know, this. And And again, if you're dealing with And And again, if you're dealing with And And again, if you're dealing with multiples, there's a half dozen or a multiples, there's a half dozen or a multiples, there's a half dozen or a dozen individuals in your church like dozen individuals in your church like dozen individuals in your church like that, one person can't bear that and that, one person can't bear that and that, one person can't bear that and bear it well. So, I probably was quicker bear it well. So, I probably was quicker bear it well. So, I probably was quicker to disconnect and quicker to scale it so to disconnect and quicker to scale it so to disconnect and quicker to scale it so that we have teams for that, we have that we have teams for that, we have that we have teams for that, we have groups for that. Our serving teams will groups for that. Our serving teams will groups for that. Our serving teams will handle that. Um handle that. Um handle that. Um but, you know, you you you were but, you know, you you you were but, you know, you you you were describing earlier, I'm thinking about describing earlier, I'm thinking about describing earlier, I'm thinking about my pastor, Jeff, and on the one moment my pastor, Jeff, and on the one moment my pastor, Jeff, and on the one moment he's at a hospice caring for a guy who's he's at a hospice caring for a guy who's he's at a hospice caring for a guy who's dying of cancer. dying of cancer. dying of cancer. The next he's raising millions of The next he's raising millions of The next he's raising millions of dollars and trying to figure out dollars and trying to figure out dollars and trying to figure out architectural stuff and then he's architectural stuff and then he's architectural stuff and then he's working on his message. Like I have a working on his message. Like I have a working on his message. Like I have a lot of empathy for that. lot of empathy for that. lot of empathy for that. Is it the impossible job description?

Is it the impossible job description? Is it the impossible job description? No. Mhm. I don't think it's impossible. No. Mhm. I don't think it's impossible. No. Mhm. I don't think it's impossible. Um I do think Um I do think Um I do think vocational ministers pastors are prone vocational ministers pastors are prone vocational ministers pastors are prone to over function. to over function. to over function. Mhm. I think we are prone to do more Mhm. I think we are prone to do more Mhm. I think we are prone to do more than a human is designed to do. Yeah. So than a human is designed to do. Yeah. So than a human is designed to do. Yeah. So you know you kind of hinted you're you know you kind of hinted you're you know you kind of hinted you're you're like am I an anxious to I don't you're like am I an anxious to I don't you're like am I an anxious to I don't think I'm an anxious person. think I'm an anxious person. think I'm an anxious person. That's very common. Um most leaders that That's very common. Um most leaders that That's very common. Um most leaders that aren't natural warriors and aren't aren't natural warriors and aren't aren't natural warriors and aren't really afraid really afraid really afraid would say well I'm not anxious. would say well I'm not anxious. would say well I'm not anxious. But But But chronic anxiety looks like reactivity. chronic anxiety looks like reactivity. chronic anxiety looks like reactivity. We all have that. We all have that. We all have that. We all have false needs we live for. We all have false needs we live for. We all have false needs we live for. So no it's not an impossible job So no it's not an impossible job So no it's not an impossible job description. description. description. The impossibility comes in the frequency The impossibility comes in the frequency The impossibility comes in the frequency and the over functioning. and the over functioning. and the over functioning. Uh when we when our well-being is Uh when we when our well-being is Uh when we when our well-being is attached to the church's well-being and attached to the church's well-being and attached to the church's well-being and we can't tell the difference. Mhm. And we can't tell the difference. Mhm. And we can't tell the difference. Mhm. And so then you know we can't turn it off at so then you know we can't turn it off at so then you know we can't turn it off at home. home. home. Um that's where it becomes impossible.

Um that's where it becomes impossible. Um that's where it becomes impossible. But no pastors But no pastors But no pastors to your point can hire equip a volunteer to your point can hire equip a volunteer to your point can hire equip a volunteer to to manage the scope of the work. to to manage the scope of the work. to to manage the scope of the work. Um it's doable but Um it's doable but Um it's doable but you just have to be aware I think the you just have to be aware I think the you just have to be aware I think the guardrails is what the problem is. I guardrails is what the problem is. I guardrails is what the problem is. I think many of us live outside the think many of us live outside the think many of us live outside the guardrails of health and we're not aware guardrails of health and we're not aware guardrails of health and we're not aware of it. We're just like just one more one of it. We're just like just one more one of it. We're just like just one more one more. more. more. Uh we just go go go. Uh we just go go go. Uh we just go go go. Any other frequent flyer issues that are Any other frequent flyer issues that are Any other frequent flyer issues that are coming across coming across coming across your radar these days? The same issues your radar these days? The same issues your radar these days? The same issues and said another way is is a and said another way is is a and said another way is is a you add a paycheck to your faith and it you add a paycheck to your faith and it you add a paycheck to your faith and it complicates everything. complicates everything. complicates everything. So, it we're kind of circling around the So, it we're kind of circling around the So, it we're kind of circling around the same general theme, but like I got into same general theme, but like I got into same general theme, but like I got into ministry cuz Jesus revolutionized my ministry cuz Jesus revolutionized my ministry cuz Jesus revolutionized my life, and I wanted to tell everybody. life, and I wanted to tell everybody. life, and I wanted to tell everybody. And then I got paid for it, and now my And then I got paid for it, and now my And then I got paid for it, and now my faith is kind of in the business. It's faith is kind of in the business. It's faith is kind of in the business. It's really messy. So, the way I describe really messy. So, the way I describe really messy. So, the way I describe that, I think we chatted about it last that, I think we chatted about it last that, I think we chatted about it last time, is I tend to relate to God too time, is I tend to relate to God too time, is I tend to relate to God too much as God's employee and not enough as much as God's employee and not enough as much as God's employee and not enough as God's child.

God's child. God's child. And I think that's still a big pressing And I think that's still a big pressing And I think that's still a big pressing issue with pastors. Yeah. issue with pastors. Yeah. issue with pastors. Yeah. Um any surprising or unusual things that Um any surprising or unusual things that Um any surprising or unusual things that have emerged in the last four or five have emerged in the last four or five have emerged in the last four or five years which have been unlike anything years which have been unlike anything years which have been unlike anything we've led through before? we've led through before? we've led through before? Yeah, I've run into a couple of Yeah, I've run into a couple of Yeah, I've run into a couple of surprises. I keep asking pastors when I surprises. I keep asking pastors when I surprises. I keep asking pastors when I meet with them how powerful they feel. meet with them how powerful they feel. meet with them how powerful they feel. And almost every pastor tells me they And almost every pastor tells me they And almost every pastor tells me they don't feel very powerful at all. They don't feel very powerful at all. They don't feel very powerful at all. They feel tossed around by congregants. feel tossed around by congregants. feel tossed around by congregants. They've got a tough board. They've got a tough board. They've got a tough board. Uh but, your average congregant thinks Uh but, your average congregant thinks Uh but, your average congregant thinks your pastor is incredibly powerful. your pastor is incredibly powerful. your pastor is incredibly powerful. And I started doing this little social And I started doing this little social And I started doing this little social experiment after looking at Twitter. You experiment after looking at Twitter. You experiment after looking at Twitter. You know, Twitter is one of the hobbies of know, Twitter is one of the hobbies of know, Twitter is one of the hobbies of Twitter is taking down a pastor. Like, Twitter is taking down a pastor. Like, Twitter is taking down a pastor. Like, there's just there's just there's just There's some people get a lot of There's some people get a lot of There's some people get a lot of pleasure out of let's take down a pleasure out of let's take down a pleasure out of let's take down a pastor. And listen, it's tricky, pastor. And listen, it's tricky, pastor. And listen, it's tricky, Carrick, cuz some of these pastors need Carrick, cuz some of these pastors need Carrick, cuz some of these pastors need to be exposed, to be honest. They do. to be exposed, to be honest. They do. to be exposed, to be honest. They do. sure. There are real abuses that need to sure. There are real abuses that need to sure. There are real abuses that need to be dealt with. be dealt with. be dealt with. True. It's It's true. But, what's also True. It's It's true. But, what's also True. It's It's true. But, what's also true is they're still human beings, and true is they're still human beings, and true is they're still human beings, and we do tend to strip them of their we do tend to strip them of their we do tend to strip them of their humanity in the takedown. What's humanity in the takedown. What's humanity in the takedown. What's interesting is a lot of those pastors interesting is a lot of those pastors interesting is a lot of those pastors feel relatively powerless.

feel relatively powerless. feel relatively powerless. Um they feel bullied. They feel Um they feel bullied. They feel Um they feel bullied. They feel attacked. And so, I've been doing some attacked. And so, I've been doing some attacked. And so, I've been doing some work with this like internal split that work with this like internal split that work with this like internal split that pastors have where pastors have where pastors have where we get the What's the church word for we get the What's the church word for we get the What's the church word for it? We get the hell kicked out of us by it? We get the hell kicked out of us by it? We get the hell kicked out of us by these critics. these critics. these critics. And also, we speak for God, and there's And also, we speak for God, and there's And also, we speak for God, and there's there's weird extreme there's weird extreme there's weird extreme that I think makes us really cagey that I think makes us really cagey that I think makes us really cagey around a lot of people. I think that around a lot of people. I think that around a lot of people. I think that pastor hat, that's where I go back to pastor hat, that's where I go back to pastor hat, that's where I go back to that question. How many minutes a week that question. How many minutes a week that question. How many minutes a week can you be exactly yourself? can you be exactly yourself? can you be exactly yourself? And how many people in your life And how many people in your life And how many people in your life can you be exactly yourself around? No can you be exactly yourself around? No can you be exactly yourself around? No pretense, no representation of God, just pretense, no representation of God, just pretense, no representation of God, just you. you. you. And I think if pastors don't have that, And I think if pastors don't have that, And I think if pastors don't have that, we become less and less human over time, we become less and less human over time, we become less and less human over time, and we become more and more of a and we become more and more of a and we become more and more of a caricature. You You've probably met caricature. You You've probably met caricature. You You've probably met this, too. I've I've worked with pastors this, too. I've I've worked with pastors this, too. I've I've worked with pastors that when I have lunch with them, they that when I have lunch with them, they that when I have lunch with them, they are almost incapable of a dialogue. are almost incapable of a dialogue. are almost incapable of a dialogue. Um it They're they're monologuing. I'm Um it They're they're monologuing. I'm Um it They're they're monologuing. I'm not to exaggerate, but they're almost not to exaggerate, but they're almost not to exaggerate, but they're almost alliterizing their their talk, but they alliterizing their their talk, but they alliterizing their their talk, but they are I've had this where I'm sitting down are I've had this where I'm sitting down are I've had this where I'm sitting down and I'm like, I thought we were just and I'm like, I thought we were just and I'm like, I thought we were just having a conversation, but they're having a conversation, but they're having a conversation, but they're actually leading me through a narrative actually leading me through a narrative actually leading me through a narrative to a point. You know, they preach too to a point. You know, they preach too to a point. You know, they preach too much. The The amount The thousand much. The The amount The thousand much. The The amount The thousand sermons has changed their brain.

sermons has changed their brain. sermons has changed their brain. Um and so, I just think it's so Um and so, I just think it's so Um and so, I just think it's so important for pastors to be human-sized, important for pastors to be human-sized, important for pastors to be human-sized, and that also relaxes the congregation. and that also relaxes the congregation. and that also relaxes the congregation. I There's a lot of well-meaning pretense I There's a lot of well-meaning pretense I There's a lot of well-meaning pretense in the church, and it's too much in the church, and it's too much in the church, and it's too much pressure. Is that even possible? Oh, pressure. Is that even possible? Oh, pressure. Is that even possible? Oh, yeah. How do you How do you become just yeah. How do you How do you become just yeah. How do you How do you become just authentically authentically authentically you you you when and and and not a role attached to when and and and not a role attached to when and and and not a role attached to you? I think I've discovered that in the you? I think I've discovered that in the you? I think I've discovered that in the last 8 years since I haven't been a lead last 8 years since I haven't been a lead last 8 years since I haven't been a lead pastor. pastor. pastor. Um but I I thought it was a thought Um but I I thought it was a thought Um but I I thought it was a thought experiment experiment experiment prior to becoming not a lead pastor, prior to becoming not a lead pastor, prior to becoming not a lead pastor, when I was still a lead pastor, because when I was still a lead pastor, because when I was still a lead pastor, because I was never not in the job. Do you know I was never not in the job. Do you know I was never not in the job. Do you know what I mean? So, if you're going to be what I mean? So, if you're going to be what I mean? So, if you're going to be able to do it, how would you do that? able to do it, how would you do that? able to do it, how would you do that? Now, Carey, I I made so many mistakes as Now, Carey, I I made so many mistakes as Now, Carey, I I made so many mistakes as a lead pastor. I I don't know any lead a lead pastor. I I don't know any lead a lead pastor. I I don't know any lead pastor that hasn't gone through it and pastor that hasn't gone through it and pastor that hasn't gone through it and said, "Oh, man, I said, "Oh, man, I said, "Oh, man, I I would do things differently." That's I would do things differently." That's I would do things differently." That's why I do what I do today. why I do what I do today. why I do what I do today. Well, I I Yeah. I think you do what you Well, I I Yeah. I think you do what you Well, I I Yeah. I think you do what you do. I think you're living God's calling do. I think you're living God's calling do. I think you're living God's calling for your life personally, but for your life personally, but for your life personally, but but one thing I I'm proud of what I did but one thing I I'm proud of what I did but one thing I I'm proud of what I did is when I came to our church, I'd never is when I came to our church, I'd never is when I came to our church, I'd never been a lead pastor before. Now, we were been a lead pastor before. Now, we were been a lead pastor before. Now, we were a small church, a small church plant in a small church, a small church plant in a small church, a small church plant in a portable building.

a portable building. a portable building. So, you might say, "Well, there wasn't So, you might say, "Well, there wasn't So, you might say, "Well, there wasn't much to lose." I think there was. much to lose." I think there was. much to lose." I think there was. But, we might the elders and I got up in But, we might the elders and I got up in But, we might the elders and I got up in front of the congregation and basically front of the congregation and basically front of the congregation and basically played our hand when I came and took the played our hand when I came and took the played our hand when I came and took the role and basically said, "This is Steve. role and basically said, "This is Steve. role and basically said, "This is Steve. He's raw material. He's never done this He's raw material. He's never done this He's raw material. He's never done this before. He's been a pastor before. He's before. He's been a pastor before. He's before. He's been a pastor before. He's never been a lead pastor. And he's going never been a lead pastor. And he's going never been a lead pastor. And he's going to need a few years to grow into the to need a few years to grow into the to need a few years to grow into the role." role." role." And so, I never pretended I I didn't And so, I never pretended I I didn't And so, I never pretended I I didn't have any pressure to pretend to be have any pressure to pretend to be have any pressure to pretend to be anything other than what I was, which is anything other than what I was, which is anything other than what I was, which is a rookie. a rookie. a rookie. I I think one of the challenges of I I think one of the challenges of I I think one of the challenges of pastors is we we over function. We take pastors is we we over function. We take pastors is we we over function. We take too much responsibility. One simple too much responsibility. One simple too much responsibility. One simple example, Carey, would be example, Carey, would be example, Carey, would be we feel responsible to provide care for we feel responsible to provide care for we feel responsible to provide care for everybody, but actually the role of a everybody, but actually the role of a everybody, but actually the role of a pastor is to take responsibility for pastor is to take responsibility for pastor is to take responsibility for everyone to be cared for. That's everyone to be cared for. That's everyone to be cared for. That's different. different. different. So, that means that I'm creating a So, that means that I'm creating a So, that means that I'm creating a culture where I also am being cared for. culture where I also am being cared for. culture where I also am being cared for. So, in my church, it was never So, in my church, it was never So, in my church, it was never inappropriate. It was never me using the inappropriate. It was never me using the inappropriate. It was never me using the congregation for therapy.

congregation for therapy. congregation for therapy. But, I shared my doubt with the church. But, I shared my doubt with the church. But, I shared my doubt with the church. This next book that I just released is This next book that I just released is This next book that I just released is all about I mean, this is my own story all about I mean, this is my own story all about I mean, this is my own story of struggling to encounter God as a of struggling to encounter God as a of struggling to encounter God as a pastor. pastor. pastor. None of my book will be surprising to my None of my book will be surprising to my None of my book will be surprising to my congregation. They'll read it and congregation. They'll read it and congregation. They'll read it and they'll say, "Oh, yeah, Steve's preached they'll say, "Oh, yeah, Steve's preached they'll say, "Oh, yeah, Steve's preached that like hundreds of times." that like hundreds of times." that like hundreds of times." So, I think it's actually very possible So, I think it's actually very possible So, I think it's actually very possible for a pastor to be exactly human-sized, for a pastor to be exactly human-sized, for a pastor to be exactly human-sized, learn on the job, admit your mistakes, learn on the job, admit your mistakes, learn on the job, admit your mistakes, share your doubts appropriately. share your doubts appropriately. share your doubts appropriately. And what it ends up doing is that it And what it ends up doing is that it And what it ends up doing is that it does attract bullies. I attracted some does attract bullies. I attracted some does attract bullies. I attracted some bullies. They get their kicks out like bullies. They get their kicks out like bullies. They get their kicks out like when you share your vulnerability, it when you share your vulnerability, it when you share your vulnerability, it will attract some bullies. Mhm. It will will attract some bullies. Mhm. It will will attract some bullies. Mhm. It will also attract vulnerable people who are also attract vulnerable people who are also attract vulnerable people who are looking who are spiritually hungry. looking who are spiritually hungry. looking who are spiritually hungry. They're the best people any church will They're the best people any church will They're the best people any church will ever have. But, I also attracted like ever have. But, I also attracted like ever have. But, I also attracted like spiritual sages that took me under their spiritual sages that took me under their spiritual sages that took me under their wing. I mean, I'm their pastor. wing. I mean, I'm their pastor. wing. I mean, I'm their pastor. They're older than me, and they They're older than me, and they They're older than me, and they shepherded me. shepherded me. shepherded me. And so, in my 16 years, it really was a And so, in my 16 years, it really was a And so, in my 16 years, it really was a beautiful exchange of care beautiful exchange of care beautiful exchange of care Mhm. uh between me and the congregants.

Mhm. uh between me and the congregants. Mhm. uh between me and the congregants. Same with my staff. I cared for my Same with my staff. I cared for my Same with my staff. I cared for my staff, but some of my core leaders that staff, but some of my core leaders that staff, but some of my core leaders that worked for me gave me great care. worked for me gave me great care. worked for me gave me great care. And that meant I didn't have to be some And that meant I didn't have to be some And that meant I didn't have to be some kind of a thing that God never asked me kind of a thing that God never asked me kind of a thing that God never asked me to be. I can be human-sized. So, to be. I can be human-sized. So, to be. I can be human-sized. So, I I am passionate about this. I think we I I am passionate about this. I think we I I am passionate about this. I think we can all do that. can all do that. can all do that. When you look at the health of pastors When you look at the health of pastors When you look at the health of pastors today, I mean, think if you looked at today, I mean, think if you looked at today, I mean, think if you looked at all of us in 2019, we didn't know what all of us in 2019, we didn't know what all of us in 2019, we didn't know what we were stepping into. we were stepping into. we were stepping into. Uh we got the snot kicked out of us, and Uh we got the snot kicked out of us, and Uh we got the snot kicked out of us, and you know, here we are today. you know, here we are today. you know, here we are today. Are we more resilient? Are we healthier? Are we more resilient? Are we healthier? Are we more resilient? Are we healthier? Are we still limping? What what's your Are we still limping? What what's your Are we still limping? What what's your assessment of assessment of assessment of the state of the health of of church the state of the health of of church the state of the health of of church leaders leaders leaders uh in this moment? uh in this moment? uh in this moment? I am really encouraged by this what I'm I am really encouraged by this what I'm I am really encouraged by this what I'm seeing. seeing. seeing. Um I I'm definitely Um I I'm definitely Um I I'm definitely I I'm definitely seeing church teams I I'm definitely seeing church teams I I'm definitely seeing church teams that really want to make an impact in that really want to make an impact in that really want to make an impact in their community and around the world. their community and around the world. their community and around the world. Like, good people Like, good people Like, good people banding together, wanting to make a banding together, wanting to make a banding together, wanting to make a difference. I'm seeing a higher value on difference. I'm seeing a higher value on difference. I'm seeing a higher value on team well-being than I saw before COVID.

team well-being than I saw before COVID. team well-being than I saw before COVID. I think before COVID, it was a little I think before COVID, it was a little I think before COVID, it was a little bit of uh mission focus. bit of uh mission focus. bit of uh mission focus. And now, it's more are we well together? And now, it's more are we well together? And now, it's more are we well together? Um and I'm glad to see that. There's Um and I'm glad to see that. There's Um and I'm glad to see that. There's always a concern with driven leaders always a concern with driven leaders always a concern with driven leaders that the more we work on our relational that the more we work on our relational that the more we work on our relational integrity, the less mission we get. I integrity, the less mission we get. I integrity, the less mission we get. I can prove all day long that the better can prove all day long that the better can prove all day long that the better your team cohesion, the further you'll your team cohesion, the further you'll your team cohesion, the further you'll get on your mission. get on your mission. get on your mission. So, I'm seeing a lot of that. Um I I'm So, I'm seeing a lot of that. Um I I'm So, I'm seeing a lot of that. Um I I'm generally encouraged. I think what generally encouraged. I think what generally encouraged. I think what happened through COVID happened through COVID happened through COVID when I was a chaplain, when I was a chaplain, when I was a chaplain, um um um you know, I did a lot of emergency room you know, I did a lot of emergency room you know, I did a lot of emergency room work, work, work, and one of the chaplains pulled me and one of the chaplains pulled me and one of the chaplains pulled me aside. He said, "Steve, aside. He said, "Steve, aside. He said, "Steve, when you're rushing down to the ER to when you're rushing down to the ER to when you're rushing down to the ER to meet the family, right? Like what meet the family, right? Like what meet the family, right? Like what happens is somebody's coming through the happens is somebody's coming through the happens is somebody's coming through the double doors on a gurney, they've come double doors on a gurney, they've come double doors on a gurney, they've come on a helicopter or an ambulance, they're on a helicopter or an ambulance, they're on a helicopter or an ambulance, they're the person in the accident. But then a the person in the accident. But then a the person in the accident. But then a minute or two later, this very shocked minute or two later, this very shocked minute or two later, this very shocked family walks in. They've got the phone family walks in. They've got the phone family walks in. They've got the phone call, and they're rushing in to see how call, and they're rushing in to see how call, and they're rushing in to see how their loved one is. And of course, my their loved one is. And of course, my their loved one is. And of course, my job is to care for all of them." job is to care for all of them." job is to care for all of them." The chaplain said, The chaplain said, The chaplain said, he said, "Your job is to figure out what he said, "Your job is to figure out what he said, "Your job is to figure out what was going on in that family 1 minute was going on in that family 1 minute was going on in that family 1 minute before their phone rang." Mhm. Like before their phone rang." Mhm. Like before their phone rang." Mhm. Like before the crisis hit, what was the before the crisis hit, what was the before the crisis hit, what was the dynamic? And the crisis didn't create dynamic? And the crisis didn't create dynamic? And the crisis didn't create that dynamic in the family, it just that dynamic in the family, it just that dynamic in the family, it just reveals it.

reveals it. reveals it. That's how I see COVID. I I just think That's how I see COVID. I I just think That's how I see COVID. I I just think leaders leaders leaders uh just blew into COVID thinking we were uh just blew into COVID thinking we were uh just blew into COVID thinking we were fine. fine. fine. And COVID didn't create anything. It And COVID didn't create anything. It And COVID didn't create anything. It just exposed everything. Mhm. just exposed everything. Mhm. just exposed everything. Mhm. So, if COVID kind of locked us down in So, if COVID kind of locked us down in So, if COVID kind of locked us down in March of 2020, what was happening in March of 2020, what was happening in March of 2020, what was happening in January? Same. January? Same. January? Same. Leaders running on fumes, ignoring Leaders running on fumes, ignoring Leaders running on fumes, ignoring well-being, well-being, well-being, acting out of reactivity, and then COVID acting out of reactivity, and then COVID acting out of reactivity, and then COVID just exposed it all. just exposed it all. just exposed it all. I think that's a fair analysis. So, you I think that's a fair analysis. So, you I think that's a fair analysis. So, you would say there's been an improvement. would say there's been an improvement. would say there's been an improvement. First of all, huge casualty rate over First of all, huge casualty rate over First of all, huge casualty rate over the last few years. A lot of people who the last few years. A lot of people who the last few years. A lot of people who were in leadership aren't anymore. Yeah. were in leadership aren't anymore. Yeah. were in leadership aren't anymore. Yeah. Um but those who remain Um but those who remain Um but those who remain are overall taking their health more are overall taking their health more are overall taking their health more seriously, which is good. seriously, which is good. seriously, which is good. If you look at the data, particularly If you look at the data, particularly If you look at the data, particularly the Barna data, there seems to be a the Barna data, there seems to be a the Barna data, there seems to be a dividing line over 45, under 45. And dividing line over 45, under 45. And dividing line over 45, under 45. And almost I'm sure you've seen the data, almost I'm sure you've seen the data, almost I'm sure you've seen the data, but almost every marker, faith, but almost every marker, faith, but almost every marker, faith, well-being, resilience, well-being, resilience, well-being, resilience, um you name it, The under 45s are not um you name it, The under 45s are not um you name it, The under 45s are not flourishing.

flourishing. flourishing. And I don't know whether that's ministry And I don't know whether that's ministry And I don't know whether that's ministry specific or whether that's just, you specific or whether that's just, you specific or whether that's just, you know, we've heard about Gen Z being a know, we've heard about Gen Z being a know, we've heard about Gen Z being a non-resilient non-resilient non-resilient generation. What are you seeing in generation. What are you seeing in generation. What are you seeing in particular in younger leaders and any particular in younger leaders and any particular in younger leaders and any words to them because we got a lot words to them because we got a lot words to them because we got a lot listening to this show. listening to this show. listening to this show. It's interesting. I have seen that data. It's interesting. I have seen that data. It's interesting. I have seen that data. And my experience with the Gen what I And my experience with the Gen what I And my experience with the Gen what I would call the Gen Z. Do you Do you say would call the Gen Z. Do you Do you say would call the Gen Z. Do you Do you say Z or Z in Canada? Z or Z in Canada? Z or Z in Canada? I say Z. Well, Canada's split. Canada's I say Z. Well, Canada's split. Canada's I say Z. Well, Canada's split. Canada's split. split. split. Some say Z but I get nasty looks in Some say Z but I get nasty looks in Some say Z but I get nasty looks in Canada when I say Z. We're supposed to Canada when I say Z. We're supposed to Canada when I say Z. We're supposed to say Z. I was just in England. They say say Z. I was just in England. They say say Z. I was just in England. They say Z. But 80% of people listening to the Z. But 80% of people listening to the Z. But 80% of people listening to the show are American. So I've Americanized show are American. So I've Americanized show are American. So I've Americanized the pronunciation. Well, that's very the pronunciation. Well, that's very the pronunciation. Well, that's very kind of you. I feel obligated to say Z. kind of you. I feel obligated to say Z. kind of you. I feel obligated to say Z. from my home country. from my home country. from my home country. Yeah, I was about to say, yeah. I I have Yeah, I was about to say, yeah. I I have Yeah, I was about to say, yeah. I I have an obligation to the Queen, the late an obligation to the Queen, the late an obligation to the Queen, the late Queen of England to say Z. Queen of England to say Z. Queen of England to say Z. she's now the late Queen. Yeah. Yeah, she's now the late Queen. Yeah. Yeah, she's now the late Queen. Yeah. Yeah, the late Queen. the late Queen. the late Queen. Um, Say Z. It's interesting, isn't it? I Um, Say Z. It's interesting, isn't it? I Um, Say Z. It's interesting, isn't it? I I think what Barna has picked up on is I think what Barna has picked up on is I think what Barna has picked up on is the natural insecurity that young people the natural insecurity that young people the natural insecurity that young people face that as you get older, you just face that as you get older, you just face that as you get older, you just wonderfully a less attached to your wonderfully a less attached to your wonderfully a less attached to your performance.

performance. performance. So I do think what we talked about So I do think what we talked about So I do think what we talked about before, the way we tend to enmesh our before, the way we tend to enmesh our before, the way we tend to enmesh our well-being with the church's well-being, well-being with the church's well-being, well-being with the church's well-being, that's like that's like your that's like that's like your that's like that's like your stereotypical young church planter. stereotypical young church planter. stereotypical young church planter. Yeah, that was me at 35. It was not me Yeah, that was me at 35. It was not me Yeah, that was me at 35. It was not me at 55. Yeah. Yeah, it's all on my at 55. Yeah. Yeah, it's all on my at 55. Yeah. Yeah, it's all on my shoulders, you know. And that's actually shoulders, you know. And that's actually shoulders, you know. And that's actually Carey, that's what chronic anxiety does Carey, that's what chronic anxiety does Carey, that's what chronic anxiety does is chronic anxiety has a gospel and one is chronic anxiety has a gospel and one is chronic anxiety has a gospel and one of it two of its messages are you can of it two of its messages are you can of it two of its messages are you can worry your way to peace and it's all on worry your way to peace and it's all on worry your way to peace and it's all on me. I must I must I must. Chronic me. I must I must I must. Chronic me. I must I must I must. Chronic anxiety's one of the number one reasons anxiety's one of the number one reasons anxiety's one of the number one reasons why we don't notice the Lord cuz we're why we don't notice the Lord cuz we're why we don't notice the Lord cuz we're so busy in self. We're so busy trying to so busy in self. We're so busy trying to so busy in self. We're so busy trying to do for God that we don't, you know, know do for God that we don't, you know, know do for God that we don't, you know, know how to relax in the God's presence. how to relax in the God's presence. how to relax in the God's presence. But But on the other side of Barna, I am But But on the other side of Barna, I am But But on the other side of Barna, I am seeing a lot of Gen Z's that actually seeing a lot of Gen Z's that actually seeing a lot of Gen Z's that actually have a pretty epic work work-life have a pretty epic work work-life have a pretty epic work work-life balance. balance. balance. Where they actually have seen our Where they actually have seen our Where they actually have seen our generation pour it all out, and they are generation pour it all out, and they are generation pour it all out, and they are trying to figure out a less enmeshed trying to figure out a less enmeshed trying to figure out a less enmeshed relationship with their work. I find relationship with their work. I find relationship with their work. I find myself defending Gen Z and millennials myself defending Gen Z and millennials myself defending Gen Z and millennials to to older generation.

to to older generation. to to older generation. The other interesting thing I would just The other interesting thing I would just The other interesting thing I would just point out is is our Gen Z's and I'll point out is is our Gen Z's and I'll point out is is our Gen Z's and I'll I'll say Z for I know most of our I'll say Z for I know most of our I'll say Z for I know most of our audience are like tripping up on the Z audience are like tripping up on the Z audience are like tripping up on the Z here. here. here. Um by the way, Carey, it's zebra, not Um by the way, Carey, it's zebra, not Um by the way, Carey, it's zebra, not zebra, if I may. If I may. zebra, if I may. If I may. zebra, if I may. If I may. really? I've never heard that. Zebra? really? I've never heard that. Zebra? really? I've never heard that. Zebra? Come on. Okay. Come on. Okay. Come on. Okay. I try so hard. I try so hard. I try so hard. Canadians are in between American Canadians are in between American Canadians are in between American Britain. We just are. Britain. We just are. Britain. We just are. It's like we we weigh peppers and meat It's like we we weigh peppers and meat It's like we we weigh peppers and meat in grams, but we measure ourselves in in grams, but we measure ourselves in in grams, but we measure ourselves in pounds. pounds. pounds. Uh we we travel in kilometers, but I'm Uh we we travel in kilometers, but I'm Uh we we travel in kilometers, but I'm like 6'2. So, it's just this mashup like 6'2. So, it's just this mashup like 6'2. So, it's just this mashup hybrid that nobody really understands. hybrid that nobody really understands. hybrid that nobody really understands. That's beautiful. Yeah. Oh, man. Um That's beautiful. Yeah. Oh, man. Um That's beautiful. Yeah. Oh, man. Um the other thing that that our Gen Z and the other thing that that our Gen Z and the other thing that that our Gen Z and our millennials do is they're fluent in our millennials do is they're fluent in our millennials do is they're fluent in the language of anxiety. the language of anxiety. the language of anxiety. And this can trip up, you know, I'm a And this can trip up, you know, I'm a And this can trip up, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, Gen Xer, Gen Xer, and our boomers, we get tripped up by and our boomers, we get tripped up by and our boomers, we get tripped up by it. And our tendency is to say, "Just it. And our tendency is to say, "Just it. And our tendency is to say, "Just get over it, you know. Uh our get over it, you know. Uh our get over it, you know. Uh our grandparents fought Hitler, and they grandparents fought Hitler, and they grandparents fought Hitler, and they weren't anxious." Yeah, I would just weren't anxious." Yeah, I would just weren't anxious." Yeah, I would just say, "Well, they did drink a lot. Let's say, "Well, they did drink a lot. Let's say, "Well, they did drink a lot. Let's be honest." Like be honest." Like be honest." Like uh uh uh and also for many of them their spouses and also for many of them their spouses and also for many of them their spouses said, "He came home, and he was a said, "He came home, and he was a said, "He came home, and he was a stranger to me." So, stranger to me." So, stranger to me." So, So, our younger generation is actually So, our younger generation is actually So, our younger generation is actually teaching us how to be more in touch with teaching us how to be more in touch with teaching us how to be more in touch with ourselves. What's interesting is they ourselves. What's interesting is they ourselves. What's interesting is they they present like they're not very they present like they're not very they present like they're not very resilient, but after that initial resilient, but after that initial resilient, but after that initial anxiety conversation, there's a profound anxiety conversation, there's a profound anxiety conversation, there's a profound resilience in a lot of our young people.

resilience in a lot of our young people. resilience in a lot of our young people. So, I think it's actually on us older So, I think it's actually on us older So, I think it's actually on us older generations to learn how to listen to generations to learn how to listen to generations to learn how to listen to that language, and then see what's past that language, and then see what's past that language, and then see what's past it. Um so, I I'm a I'm a big defender of it. Um so, I I'm a I'm a big defender of it. Um so, I I'm a I'm a big defender of the younger generation. I think the younger generation. I think the younger generation. I think Yeah, so it might be that, you know, Yeah, so it might be that, you know, Yeah, so it might be that, you know, their self-assessment is a little more their self-assessment is a little more their self-assessment is a little more sober realistic than over 45s. sober realistic than over 45s. sober realistic than over 45s. Uh my wife and I are jumping on a plane Uh my wife and I are jumping on a plane Uh my wife and I are jumping on a plane in a couple weeks to head down for a few in a couple weeks to head down for a few in a couple weeks to head down for a few days with days with days with some young church leaders couples. And some young church leaders couples. And some young church leaders couples. And we're just going to spend 3 days with we're just going to spend 3 days with we're just going to spend 3 days with them building to them. I'm so excited them building to them. I'm so excited them building to them. I'm so excited for that because like you, I'm pretty for that because like you, I'm pretty for that because like you, I'm pretty bullish on the next generation and bullish on the next generation and bullish on the next generation and Yeah. and and excited for them. Um If I Yeah. and and excited for them. Um If I Yeah. and and excited for them. Um If I may, I'm sorry. They're not They're not may, I'm sorry. They're not They're not may, I'm sorry. They're not They're not cynical. I was cynical at their age. cynical. I was cynical at their age. cynical. I was cynical at their age. They're incredibly optimistic. They love They're incredibly optimistic. They love They're incredibly optimistic. They love the local church. So I'm a I do think the local church. So I'm a I do think the local church. So I'm a I do think the local church in general as it is now the local church in general as it is now the local church in general as it is now is in some trouble. As a gen like it is is in some trouble. As a gen like it is is in some trouble. As a gen like it is changing institutional trust all of changing institutional trust all of changing institutional trust all of that. But we do have a generation that's that. But we do have a generation that's that. But we do have a generation that's pretty darn excited about uh proclaiming pretty darn excited about uh proclaiming pretty darn excited about uh proclaiming the gospel. It's pretty cool.

the gospel. It's pretty cool. the gospel. It's pretty cool. We've thrown some terms around anxiety, We've thrown some terms around anxiety, We've thrown some terms around anxiety, uh general anxiety. Can you give us a uh general anxiety. Can you give us a uh general anxiety. Can you give us a little bit of definition? little bit of definition? little bit of definition? Um back to my comment, I don't know that Um back to my comment, I don't know that Um back to my comment, I don't know that I'm somebody who struggle like I have so I'm somebody who struggle like I have so I'm somebody who struggle like I have so many friends who are like, "Man, I've many friends who are like, "Man, I've many friends who are like, "Man, I've just got chronic anxiety." Some of them just got chronic anxiety." Some of them just got chronic anxiety." Some of them take take take medication, some don't. Uh I would say medication, some don't. Uh I would say medication, some don't. Uh I would say I'm a relatively low-anxiety I'm a relatively low-anxiety I'm a relatively low-anxiety personality, but maybe I'm fooling personality, but maybe I'm fooling personality, but maybe I'm fooling myself. Like how how would you know myself. Like how how would you know myself. Like how how would you know whether you struggle with anxiety? whether you struggle with anxiety? whether you struggle with anxiety? Okay. What a great question. If you're Okay. What a great question. If you're Okay. What a great question. If you're not sure that you're an anxious person, not sure that you're an anxious person, not sure that you're an anxious person, the fastest way to know is to ask the fastest way to know is to ask the fastest way to know is to ask somebody who loves you who knows how to somebody who loves you who knows how to somebody who loves you who knows how to tell you the truth. tell you the truth. tell you the truth. Unfortunately, Kerri, in your case Unfortunately, Kerri, in your case Unfortunately, Kerri, in your case that's that's that's that's your wife. Yeah. Tony. Uh-huh. that's your wife. Yeah. Tony. Uh-huh. that's your wife. Yeah. Tony. Uh-huh. Yep, Tony, Mrs. Newhof. And you're just Yep, Tony, Mrs. Newhof. And you're just Yep, Tony, Mrs. Newhof. And you're just going to ask her, "How do you know I'm going to ask her, "How do you know I'm going to ask her, "How do you know I'm anxious before I know I'm anxious?" anxious before I know I'm anxious?" anxious before I know I'm anxious?" And she'll know. She knows. Uh if she'll And she'll know. She knows. Uh if she'll And she'll know. She knows. Uh if she'll know. know. know. And typically, so what happens is the And typically, so what happens is the And typically, so what happens is the problem with the word anxiety is it's problem with the word anxiety is it's problem with the word anxiety is it's one word that covers so much territory. one word that covers so much territory. one word that covers so much territory. Uh we won't grow as a culture until we Uh we won't grow as a culture until we Uh we won't grow as a culture until we change it to a plural. We need to learn change it to a plural. We need to learn change it to a plural. We need to learn to start talking about anxieties, not to start talking about anxieties, not to start talking about anxieties, not anxiety. Because if we start talking anxiety. Because if we start talking anxiety. Because if we start talking about anxieties, that raises the about anxieties, that raises the about anxieties, that raises the question, well, what kind of anxiety is question, well, what kind of anxiety is question, well, what kind of anxiety is it?

it? it? And so we have, for example, you And so we have, for example, you And so we have, for example, you mentioned medication, that's like a mentioned medication, that's like a mentioned medication, that's like a classic depression anxiety disorder. classic depression anxiety disorder. classic depression anxiety disorder. Mhm. Uh so there is there are anxieties Mhm. Uh so there is there are anxieties Mhm. Uh so there is there are anxieties that are best treated chemically. that are best treated chemically. that are best treated chemically. You know, it used to be with depression You know, it used to be with depression You know, it used to be with depression that if you were struggling with that if you were struggling with that if you were struggling with depression, you would go and talk about depression, you would go and talk about depression, you would go and talk about it. But now, more often than not, the it. But now, more often than not, the it. But now, more often than not, the first thing you do is get your blood first thing you do is get your blood first thing you do is get your blood drawn. drawn. drawn. You still go to talk about it, but we're You still go to talk about it, but we're You still go to talk about it, but we're learning more and more, okay, this is a learning more and more, okay, this is a learning more and more, okay, this is a chemical thing, let's get your chemicals chemical thing, let's get your chemicals chemical thing, let's get your chemicals straight. So if we look at those straight. So if we look at those straight. So if we look at those anxieties that require mental health anxieties that require mental health anxieties that require mental health medication, which as a pastor I have to medication, which as a pastor I have to medication, which as a pastor I have to say I think is a gift from God. Mhm. If say I think is a gift from God. Mhm. If say I think is a gift from God. Mhm. If you need mental health medication, you you need mental health medication, you you need mental health medication, you should thank God and take mental health should thank God and take mental health should thank God and take mental health medication. medication. medication. It's a good thing. Um I do not struggle It's a good thing. Um I do not struggle It's a good thing. Um I do not struggle with that. I never have, Carrie. It with that. I never have, Carrie. It with that. I never have, Carrie. It sounds like you don't either. sounds like you don't either. sounds like you don't either. I wake up, to use an American football I wake up, to use an American football I wake up, to use an American football term, I wake up on first and goal almost term, I wake up on first and goal almost term, I wake up on first and goal almost every day. I wake up happy and every day. I wake up happy and every day. I wake up happy and optimistic almost every day. optimistic almost every day. optimistic almost every day. But people that struggle and need But people that struggle and need But people that struggle and need medication, they wake up in the wrong medication, they wake up in the wrong medication, they wake up in the wrong end zone.

end zone. end zone. Now, me waking up at first and goal, the Now, me waking up at first and goal, the Now, me waking up at first and goal, the ball's in my hand, I can read the ball's in my hand, I can read the ball's in my hand, I can read the defense, that's not my fault. You can't defense, that's not my fault. You can't defense, that's not my fault. You can't blame me for being happy. blame me for being happy. blame me for being happy. In the same way, people that wake up in In the same way, people that wake up in In the same way, people that wake up in the wrong end zone, the wrong end zone, the wrong end zone, mental health medication doesn't get mental health medication doesn't get mental health medication doesn't get them down to first and goal, but it does them down to first and goal, but it does them down to first and goal, but it does get them further down the field. Mhm. get them further down the field. Mhm. get them further down the field. Mhm. They're not under threat of a safety. They're not under threat of a safety. They're not under threat of a safety. Then you have uh anxieties that are Then you have uh anxieties that are Then you have uh anxieties that are related to something that physically related to something that physically related to something that physically happened to your body, PTSD, trauma, happened to your body, PTSD, trauma, happened to your body, PTSD, trauma, your average military veteran, your your average military veteran, your your average military veteran, your average abuse survivor. average abuse survivor. average abuse survivor. What ha- That's a different field and What ha- That's a different field and What ha- That's a different field and and the problem there is their safety and the problem there is their safety and the problem there is their safety radar has become unreliable. radar has become unreliable. radar has become unreliable. And so what happened to them is real, And so what happened to them is real, And so what happened to them is real, but it's now not just in their past, but it's now not just in their past, but it's now not just in their past, it's in their body. it's in their body. it's in their body. So, they're very easily triggered. So, they're very easily triggered. So, they're very easily triggered. A safe example would be my wife, who is A safe example would be my wife, who is A safe example would be my wife, who is a trauma therapist. She has been in a a trauma therapist. She has been in a a trauma therapist. She has been in a number of car accidents in her life. number of car accidents in her life. number of car accidents in her life. Mhm. Uh some where she was the driver, Mhm. Uh some where she was the driver, Mhm. Uh some where she was the driver, some where she was the passenger. some where she was the passenger. some where she was the passenger. And so, when I'm driving, her body is on And so, when I'm driving, her body is on And so, when I'm driving, her body is on high alert, even though I'm a safe high alert, even though I'm a safe high alert, even though I'm a safe driver. It's got nothing to do with me.

driver. It's got nothing to do with me. driver. It's got nothing to do with me. She's very jumpy. Her safety radar is on She's very jumpy. Her safety radar is on She's very jumpy. Her safety radar is on hyper-vigilance. Like, I'm a safe hyper-vigilance. Like, I'm a safe hyper-vigilance. Like, I'm a safe driver. I'm checking all my mirrors, but driver. I'm checking all my mirrors, but driver. I'm checking all my mirrors, but she is always on hyper-vigilance. she is always on hyper-vigilance. she is always on hyper-vigilance. Now, when somebody has untreated trauma Now, when somebody has untreated trauma Now, when somebody has untreated trauma like that, they will burn out Mhm. like that, they will burn out Mhm. like that, they will burn out Mhm. because they they do not have enough because they they do not have enough because they they do not have enough minutes a week where they can be exactly minutes a week where they can be exactly minutes a week where they can be exactly themselves, where their safety radar can themselves, where their safety radar can themselves, where their safety radar can go down. So, go back to our pastors. go down. So, go back to our pastors. go down. So, go back to our pastors. Our pastors have this safety radar Our pastors have this safety radar Our pastors have this safety radar saying, "Can I be myself with this saying, "Can I be myself with this saying, "Can I be myself with this congregant? congregant? congregant? Can I be myself with this elder?" And Can I be myself with this elder?" And Can I be myself with this elder?" And often times, the answer is no. Uh Well, often times, the answer is no. Uh Well, often times, the answer is no. Uh Well, you take that to an extreme with a you take that to an extreme with a you take that to an extreme with a trauma survivor. trauma survivor. trauma survivor. And the what happened in the past, it's And the what happened in the past, it's And the what happened in the past, it's in their body. They carry it's also in in their body. They carry it's also in in their body. They carry it's also in their future, and they walk into every their future, and they walk into every their future, and they walk into every room say that person's a threat when room say that person's a threat when room say that person's a threat when they're not. they're not. they're not. Now, then we have acute anxiety. That's Now, then we have acute anxiety. That's Now, then we have acute anxiety. That's when you see a snake, and you run for when you see a snake, and you run for when you see a snake, and you run for your life, and scream like a little boy. your life, and scream like a little boy. your life, and scream like a little boy. That's what you should be doing, though. That's what you should be doing, though. That's what you should be doing, though. Yeah. That's that's appropriate. That's Yeah. That's that's appropriate. That's Yeah. That's that's appropriate. That's because it's also based on something because it's also based on something because it's also based on something real. Acute anxiety would be Mary and real. Acute anxiety would be Mary and real. Acute anxiety would be Mary and Joseph in uh when they lost Jesus at the Joseph in uh when they lost Jesus at the Joseph in uh when they lost Jesus at the temple. They came rushing back. Anytime temple. They came rushing back. Anytime temple. They came rushing back. Anytime you lose a child, you lose a child, you lose a child, I've lost all my kids. Uh-huh. Yeah, I've lost all my kids. Uh-huh. Yeah, I've lost all my kids. Uh-huh. Yeah, I've lost all of my kids. I'm very I've lost all of my kids. I'm very I've lost all of my kids. I'm very proud.

proud. proud. Yeah, two of them, by the way, when my Yeah, two of them, by the way, when my Yeah, two of them, by the way, when my wife was out of town. She may be wife was out of town. She may be wife was out of town. She may be learning some of this for the first learning some of this for the first learning some of this for the first time. time. time. But my field is chronic anxiety, and But my field is chronic anxiety, and But my field is chronic anxiety, and it's sneaky because it's never based on it's sneaky because it's never based on it's sneaky because it's never based on something real. It's always based on something real. It's always based on something real. It's always based on something false. Yeah. So, it's my need something false. Yeah. So, it's my need something false. Yeah. So, it's my need to be light. Uh and the way you can tell to be light. Uh and the way you can tell to be light. Uh and the way you can tell your chronic anxiety is your chronic anxiety is your chronic anxiety is the overreaction when you don't get it. the overreaction when you don't get it. the overreaction when you don't get it. So, I don't I don't know if you'd be a So, I don't I don't know if you'd be a So, I don't I don't know if you'd be a perfectionist Carey or more of a control perfectionist Carey or more of a control perfectionist Carey or more of a control freak, but there are five core false freak, but there are five core false freak, but there are five core false needs of every human. needs of every human. needs of every human. The easiest one to see is perfectionism. The easiest one to see is perfectionism. The easiest one to see is perfectionism. A perfectionist, when they make a A perfectionist, when they make a A perfectionist, when they make a mistake, it's almost always not a big mistake, it's almost always not a big mistake, it's almost always not a big deal. deal. deal. But in their mind, it's the biggest But in their mind, it's the biggest But in their mind, it's the biggest deal. Mhm. That's chronic anxiety. deal. Mhm. That's chronic anxiety. deal. Mhm. That's chronic anxiety. So, to circle back, I know I've talked So, to circle back, I know I've talked So, to circle back, I know I've talked about a lot, are you an anxious person? about a lot, are you an anxious person? about a lot, are you an anxious person? You know, ask Tony. You know, ask Tony. You know, ask Tony. But one But one But one um um um solution to chronic anxiety is solution to chronic anxiety is solution to chronic anxiety is detaching. detaching. detaching. And typically, somebody like you, I'm And typically, somebody like you, I'm And typically, somebody like you, I'm always careful to to talk directly, but always careful to to talk directly, but always careful to to talk directly, but somebody like you would tend to detach somebody like you would tend to detach somebody like you would tend to detach because you don't want to get into it.

because you don't want to get into it. because you don't want to get into it. Whereas someone like me tends to enmesh. Whereas someone like me tends to enmesh. Whereas someone like me tends to enmesh. So, one of my false needs is I need to So, one of my false needs is I need to So, one of my false needs is I need to be needed. be needed. be needed. So, when somebody has a need, I can't So, when somebody has a need, I can't So, when somebody has a need, I can't tell between their need and my need to tell between their need and my need to tell between their need and my need to be needed. I tend to always overcommit. be needed. I tend to always overcommit. be needed. I tend to always overcommit. Whereas somebody maybe a bit more cool, Whereas somebody maybe a bit more cool, Whereas somebody maybe a bit more cool, they will tend to not want to tolerate they will tend to not want to tolerate they will tend to not want to tolerate the nonsense. Yeah, that would be me. the nonsense. Yeah, that would be me. the nonsense. Yeah, that would be me. I'm going to take a step back or I'm I'm going to take a step back or I'm I'm going to take a step back or I'm just not going to engage. Yeah. So, just not going to engage. Yeah. So, just not going to engage. Yeah. So, that's oddly enough that's oddly enough that's oddly enough an attempted solution to chronic an attempted solution to chronic an attempted solution to chronic anxiety. Cuz your body is telling you, anxiety. Cuz your body is telling you, anxiety. Cuz your body is telling you, get out of it. I can't Who has You're get out of it. I can't Who has You're get out of it. I can't Who has You're saying, who has time for this? But saying, who has time for this? But saying, who has time for this? But actually, you could be in it and be just actually, you could be in it and be just actually, you could be in it and be just fine. fine. fine. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, interesting, you know, Mhm. Yeah, interesting, you know, Mhm. Yeah, interesting, you know, because I think this is what Tony would because I think this is what Tony would because I think this is what Tony would say, and she's probably listening to say, and she's probably listening to say, and she's probably listening to this, so I will maybe have to issue a this, so I will maybe have to issue a this, so I will maybe have to issue a retraction or correction. But what she retraction or correction. But what she retraction or correction. But what she would say is when I'm stressed, would say is when I'm stressed, would say is when I'm stressed, I go to control. And control for me I go to control. And control for me I go to control. And control for me these days is these days is these days is particularly in the summer, I'll go mow particularly in the summer, I'll go mow particularly in the summer, I'll go mow the lawn, I'll go get that last leaf off the lawn, I'll go get that last leaf off the lawn, I'll go get that last leaf off the patio, I'll organize my office. Like the patio, I'll organize my office. Like the patio, I'll organize my office. Like my tolerance for any disorder goes to my tolerance for any disorder goes to my tolerance for any disorder goes to zero. Yeah. And it used to express zero. Yeah. And it used to express zero. Yeah. And it used to express itself as frustration, grumpiness, and itself as frustration, grumpiness, and itself as frustration, grumpiness, and anger. I'm working on that more. And now anger. I'm working on that more. And now anger. I'm working on that more. And now I just kind of go out, do my thing for I just kind of go out, do my thing for I just kind of go out, do my thing for half hour, 20 minutes, an hour.

half hour, 20 minutes, an hour. half hour, 20 minutes, an hour. And then I'm like, okay. But I would say And then I'm like, okay. But I would say And then I'm like, okay. But I would say like like like I don't take that to bed with me. I'm I don't take that to bed with me. I'm I don't take that to bed with me. I'm asleep within 10 minutes. I don't wake asleep within 10 minutes. I don't wake asleep within 10 minutes. I don't wake up ruminating as a rule. There's a up ruminating as a rule. There's a up ruminating as a rule. There's a couple of things that will get me couple of things that will get me couple of things that will get me ruminating, but they're usually personal ruminating, but they're usually personal ruminating, but they're usually personal and people close to me. and people close to me. and people close to me. So they're not they're not issues. It's So they're not they're not issues. It's So they're not they're not issues. It's like people in that inner inner circle like people in that inner inner circle like people in that inner inner circle who might be struggling. who might be struggling. who might be struggling. That that will bother my sleep. Other That that will bother my sleep. Other That that will bother my sleep. Other than that it really doesn't. Um, you than that it really doesn't. Um, you than that it really doesn't. Um, you know, I wake up like you at first and know, I wake up like you at first and know, I wake up like you at first and goal most days. Like, yeah, you had a goal most days. Like, yeah, you had a goal most days. Like, yeah, you had a great night's sleep. Let's go for it. great night's sleep. Let's go for it. great night's sleep. Let's go for it. You know, that that can get deflated You know, that that can get deflated You know, that that can get deflated over the course of a day depending on over the course of a day depending on over the course of a day depending on what a day brings. But I usually wake up what a day brings. But I usually wake up what a day brings. But I usually wake up in that resilient place. in that resilient place. in that resilient place. And I generally have an optimistic view And I generally have an optimistic view And I generally have an optimistic view of the world and some confidence. So, of the world and some confidence. So, of the world and some confidence. So, you know, I look at that and I'm not you know, I look at that and I'm not you know, I look at that and I'm not trying to say, oh, this is great. But trying to say, oh, this is great. But trying to say, oh, this is great. But like I just want to know, is do I like I just want to know, is do I like I just want to know, is do I struggle with anxiety? I want to figure struggle with anxiety? I want to figure struggle with anxiety? I want to figure that out because when I do it goes to that out because when I do it goes to that out because when I do it goes to control and control goes to the control and control goes to the control and control goes to the environment. I would say that's my environment. I would say that's my environment. I would say that's my number one response. number one response. number one response. This this is a really common I'm so glad This this is a really common I'm so glad This this is a really common I'm so glad you're asking. This is a really common you're asking. This is a really common you're asking. This is a really common case that I work with with people. Is case that I work with with people. Is case that I work with with people. Is your average leader that is a strong your average leader that is a strong your average leader that is a strong leader they see anger or that kind of leader they see anger or that kind of leader they see anger or that kind of irritability as a strength.

irritability as a strength. irritability as a strength. And it's in fact an anxious response. And it's in fact an anxious response. And it's in fact an anxious response. And that's why it's confusing because And that's why it's confusing because And that's why it's confusing because you probably just think about anxiety as you probably just think about anxiety as you probably just think about anxiety as somebody who's just fretting and somebody who's just fretting and somebody who's just fretting and worrying. But self-righteousness worrying. But self-righteousness worrying. But self-righteousness in the corner whereas I come out, you in the corner whereas I come out, you in the corner whereas I come out, you know, chest out, ready to go. Yeah, so know, chest out, ready to go. Yeah, so know, chest out, ready to go. Yeah, so there's two reactions. There's there's two reactions. There's there's two reactions. There's self-pity, which is the one you mostly self-pity, which is the one you mostly self-pity, which is the one you mostly but then there's self-righteousness. but then there's self-righteousness. but then there's self-righteousness. Which is and I'm the same, Carrie. I Which is and I'm the same, Carrie. I Which is and I'm the same, Carrie. I tend to go to self-righteousness. So the tend to go to self-righteousness. So the tend to go to self-righteousness. So the way we talk about it is there's human way we talk about it is there's human way we talk about it is there's human size then there's bigger than human and size then there's bigger than human and size then there's bigger than human and smaller than human. I get self-righteous smaller than human. I get self-righteous smaller than human. I get self-righteous when I'm anxious. Why isn't everyone when I'm anxious. Why isn't everyone when I'm anxious. Why isn't everyone doing their job? Why you know, kind of doing their job? Why you know, kind of doing their job? Why you know, kind of get into this judge and jury thing. get into this judge and jury thing. get into this judge and jury thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to your point, it's quite possible But to your point, it's quite possible But to your point, it's quite possible that you're a very healthy person and that you're a very healthy person and that you're a very healthy person and that you slip into occasional bouts of that you slip into occasional bouts of that you slip into occasional bouts of anxiety. That would be a very normal anxiety. That would be a very normal anxiety. That would be a very normal thing. thing. thing. Um Um Um but that anger, that need to control. but that anger, that need to control. but that anger, that need to control. So, just just really quickly, the five So, just just really quickly, the five So, just just really quickly, the five core false needs: control, affection, core false needs: control, affection, core false needs: control, affection, knowing the answer. knowing the answer. knowing the answer. That's one of mine. If I'm in a room and That's one of mine. If I'm in a room and That's one of mine. If I'm in a room and I know the answer, I need you to know I I know the answer, I need you to know I I know the answer, I need you to know I know. It's so hard for me to say, "I know. It's so hard for me to say, "I know. It's so hard for me to say, "I don't know."

don't know." don't know." So, control, perfection, knowing the So, control, perfection, knowing the So, control, perfection, knowing the answer, being there for people when answer, being there for people when answer, being there for people when they're hurting, and people's approval. they're hurting, and people's approval. they're hurting, and people's approval. Now, Now, Now, I probably was five for five as a I probably was five for five as a I probably was five for five as a younger leader. I think I'm two for five younger leader. I think I'm two for five younger leader. I think I'm two for five today. Mhm. today. Mhm. today. Mhm. And each of those five are God's core And each of those five are God's core And each of those five are God's core attributes. God is in control so humans attributes. God is in control so humans attributes. God is in control so humans don't have to be. God is perfect. God don't have to be. God is perfect. God don't have to be. God is perfect. God knows everything. God is there for knows everything. God is there for knows everything. God is there for everybody. We don't have to go They call everybody. We don't have to go They call everybody. We don't have to go They call it a Messiah complex, right? When you're it a Messiah complex, right? When you're it a Messiah complex, right? When you're always saving the day. always saving the day. always saving the day. God gives us our approval or God gives us our approval or God gives us our approval or unconditionally loved. unconditionally loved. unconditionally loved. Chronic anxiety shows up when we are Chronic anxiety shows up when we are Chronic anxiety shows up when we are stepping into God's realm. stepping into God's realm. stepping into God's realm. As a Let's call it Let's suggest that As a Let's call it Let's suggest that As a Let's call it Let's suggest that you might be a control freak. Oh. All you might be a control freak. Oh. All you might be a control freak. Oh. All anxiety That's uh you don't need to anxiety That's uh you don't need to anxiety That's uh you don't need to suggest that. That's an established suggest that. That's an established suggest that. That's an established fact. Okay. So, all anxiety is simply fact. Okay. So, all anxiety is simply fact. Okay. So, all anxiety is simply the twisting of your gifting into an the twisting of your gifting into an the twisting of your gifting into an extreme. extreme. extreme. So, you probably carry very good at So, you probably carry very good at So, you probably carry very good at making sure the experience is great. So, making sure the experience is great. So, making sure the experience is great. So, these young people you're heading down these young people you're heading down these young people you're heading down to, you I can probably guarantee to to, you I can probably guarantee to to, you I can probably guarantee to those young people Carrie's going to those young people Carrie's going to those young people Carrie's going to give them a great experience cuz you're give them a great experience cuz you're give them a great experience cuz you're thinking through the whole environment thinking through the whole environment thinking through the whole environment what it's going to be like. That's your what it's going to be like. That's your what it's going to be like. That's your gift from God. I'll give you an example.

gift from God. I'll give you an example. gift from God. I'll give you an example. I I spoke at a a conference and it was a I I spoke at a a conference and it was a I I spoke at a a conference and it was a one of those hotel rooms, you know, the one of those hotel rooms, you know, the one of those hotel rooms, you know, the ballroom. Uh-huh. And I walk in and the ballroom. Uh-huh. And I walk in and the ballroom. Uh-huh. And I walk in and the the conference organizer had seen that the conference organizer had seen that the conference organizer had seen that there weren't many power outlets in the there weren't many power outlets in the there weren't many power outlets in the ballroom. So, she went to Home Depot, ballroom. So, she went to Home Depot, ballroom. So, she went to Home Depot, bought extension cords and power strips bought extension cords and power strips bought extension cords and power strips so that she could duct tape every table so that she could duct tape every table so that she could duct tape every table had a power strip waiting. So when you had a power strip waiting. So when you had a power strip waiting. So when you walked into the conference, you sit at walked into the conference, you sit at walked into the conference, you sit at the table, there's a power strip, you the table, there's a power strip, you the table, there's a power strip, you plug in your device. Now, that is a plug in your device. Now, that is a plug in your device. Now, that is a thoughtful person. thoughtful person. thoughtful person. Mhm. But if you take her, and I said to Mhm. But if you take her, and I said to Mhm. But if you take her, and I said to her, "Oh, do you ever struggle with her, "Oh, do you ever struggle with her, "Oh, do you ever struggle with control?" And she's like, "How did you control?" And she's like, "How did you control?" And she's like, "How did you know? We just met." know? We just met." know? We just met." Because she's attention to detail. She's Because she's attention to detail. She's Because she's attention to detail. She's thinking through my experience. That's thinking through my experience. That's thinking through my experience. That's human size. She can be thoughtful and human size. She can be thoughtful and human size. She can be thoughtful and attention to detail and not be anxious. attention to detail and not be anxious. attention to detail and not be anxious. But if she was sitting as I'm teaching, But if she was sitting as I'm teaching, But if she was sitting as I'm teaching, I did a workshop, and if she's worried I did a workshop, and if she's worried I did a workshop, and if she's worried about everyone, is everyone having a about everyone, is everyone having a about everyone, is everyone having a good time? Man, John looks bored. Now good time? Man, John looks bored. Now good time? Man, John looks bored. Now she's in a control freak status. I yeah. she's in a control freak status. I yeah. she's in a control freak status. I yeah. So every one of us, like I'm a good So every one of us, like I'm a good So every one of us, like I'm a good Cara, but I need to be needed. So one of Cara, but I need to be needed. So one of Cara, but I need to be needed. So one of those is like my gift from God, and then those is like my gift from God, and then those is like my gift from God, and then at one extreme it becomes my source of at one extreme it becomes my source of at one extreme it becomes my source of anxiety. Mhm.

anxiety. Mhm. anxiety. Mhm. This is so helpful. And you know, the This is so helpful. And you know, the This is so helpful. And you know, the reason I'm interested in reason I'm interested in reason I'm interested in the conversation is the conversation is the conversation is I just know I can get better. And I know I just know I can get better. And I know I just know I can get better. And I know that if I get better, the people closest that if I get better, the people closest that if I get better, the people closest to me are going to have a better to me are going to have a better to me are going to have a better experience of me, right? They're not experience of me, right? They're not experience of me, right? They're not going to absorb all the shrapnel when going to absorb all the shrapnel when going to absorb all the shrapnel when I'm rattled or I'm upset about I'm rattled or I'm upset about I'm rattled or I'm upset about something, and something, and something, and you know, it leads to greater you know, it leads to greater you know, it leads to greater self-regulation as as Daniel Goleman so self-regulation as as Daniel Goleman so self-regulation as as Daniel Goleman so famously said Yeah. all those years ago. famously said Yeah. all those years ago. famously said Yeah. all those years ago. Uh Uh Uh this is so helpful. So Steve, you have a this is so helpful. So Steve, you have a this is so helpful. So Steve, you have a new book. Want to mention it quickly. new book. Want to mention it quickly. new book. Want to mention it quickly. It's called The Expectation Gap. And you It's called The Expectation Gap. And you It's called The Expectation Gap. And you deal with an issue that I think a lot of deal with an issue that I think a lot of deal with an issue that I think a lot of people struggle with. As as and I'll people struggle with. As as and I'll people struggle with. As as and I'll just I'll just lob it to you this way. just I'll just lob it to you this way. just I'll just lob it to you this way. You said you feel more like an employee You said you feel more like an employee You said you feel more like an employee than a child of God. than a child of God. than a child of God. Mhm. I I can easily, just based on my Mhm. I I can easily, just based on my Mhm. I I can easily, just based on my own natural default theology, feel like own natural default theology, feel like own natural default theology, feel like I'm performing for God rather than I'm performing for God rather than I'm performing for God rather than responding responding responding to God. In other words, I hope I get it to God. In other words, I hope I get it to God. In other words, I hope I get it right. I'm doing my best here, you know, right. I'm doing my best here, you know, right. I'm doing my best here, you know, rather than, "Oh man, you are like rather than, "Oh man, you are like rather than, "Oh man, you are like unconditionally loved. So talk about unconditionally loved. So talk about unconditionally loved. So talk about that. What why did you write it and that. What why did you write it and that. What why did you write it and what were some of the expectation gaps what were some of the expectation gaps what were some of the expectation gaps you encountered? Yeah. I I think every you encountered? Yeah. I I think every you encountered? Yeah. I I think every Christian has three gaps. And we had Christian has three gaps. And we had Christian has three gaps. And we had more of it. The three of them is coming more of it. The three of them is coming more of it. The three of them is coming out. I I believe God loves me but I out. I I believe God loves me but I out. I I believe God loves me but I don't feel it. I believe God's with me.

don't feel it. I believe God's with me. don't feel it. I believe God's with me. I don't see it. I thought I'd be further I don't see it. I thought I'd be further I don't see it. I thought I'd be further along in my faith by now. Those are the along in my faith by now. Those are the along in my faith by now. Those are the three. three. three. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Yeah. And and I I think Carrie I just I was and I I think Carrie I just I was and I I think Carrie I just I was looking around. You know, I'm trained in looking around. You know, I'm trained in looking around. You know, I'm trained in systems theory. I've been trained to systems theory. I've been trained to systems theory. I've been trained to notice recurring patterns. notice recurring patterns. notice recurring patterns. And so I noticed in our churches, why And so I noticed in our churches, why And so I noticed in our churches, why are we talking about are we talking about are we talking about why aren't we saying that it was easier why aren't we saying that it was easier why aren't we saying that it was easier to follow God in the Bible than it is to follow God in the Bible than it is to follow God in the Bible than it is today? today? today? We tend to lionize the global persecuted We tend to lionize the global persecuted We tend to lionize the global persecuted church. church. church. We tend to lionize the disciples in Acts We tend to lionize the disciples in Acts We tend to lionize the disciples in Acts chapter 2. chapter 2. chapter 2. But it was simpler back then. But it was simpler back then. But it was simpler back then. And I don't hear anyone saying it. And I don't hear anyone saying it. And I don't hear anyone saying it. Really. Really. Really. Like following Jesus was tangible. Like following Jesus was tangible. Like following Jesus was tangible. Uh if I'm a disciple, where is he? Oh, Uh if I'm a disciple, where is he? Oh, Uh if I'm a disciple, where is he? Oh, there he is. Okay, let me walk I can there he is. Okay, let me walk I can there he is. Okay, let me walk I can literally follow him. Now I may not literally follow him. Now I may not literally follow him. Now I may not understand what he's saying. He may understand what he's saying. He may understand what he's saying. He may baffle me most of the time. I may be baffle me most of the time. I may be baffle me most of the time. I may be tapping Thaddeus on the shoulder and tapping Thaddeus on the shoulder and tapping Thaddeus on the shoulder and saying, "What the heck is he talking saying, "What the heck is he talking saying, "What the heck is he talking about?" Sure. about?" Sure. about?" Sure. But he was tac tactile and even in Acts But he was tac tactile and even in Acts But he was tac tactile and even in Acts chapter 2, chapter 2, chapter 2, you know, how many churches have Acts you know, how many churches have Acts you know, how many churches have Acts chapter 2 as their vision, their goal?

chapter 2 as their vision, their goal? chapter 2 as their vision, their goal? But listen, if you and I were in church But listen, if you and I were in church But listen, if you and I were in church Carrie, like if you came to my church Carrie, like if you came to my church Carrie, like if you came to my church this Sunday and Robin came up to give this Sunday and Robin came up to give this Sunday and Robin came up to give the announcements. And as Robin's giving the announcements. And as Robin's giving the announcements. And as Robin's giving the announcements, like the storm blew the announcements, like the storm blew the announcements, like the storm blew this kind of fireball and it rested on this kind of fireball and it rested on this kind of fireball and it rested on her head and you and I like, "Man, her her head and you and I like, "Man, her her head and you and I like, "Man, her hair is not burning up. That's weird." hair is not burning up. That's weird." hair is not burning up. That's weird." And then she starts speaking Farsi And then she starts speaking Farsi And then she starts speaking Farsi and suddenly the refugees behind us are and suddenly the refugees behind us are and suddenly the refugees behind us are crying because she's speaking in their crying because she's speaking in their crying because she's speaking in their language. language. language. And then she says, "Hey, this refugee And then she says, "Hey, this refugee And then she says, "Hey, this refugee family just moved here. They need a family just moved here. They need a family just moved here. They need a car." We would probably hand our keys car." We would probably hand our keys car." We would probably hand our keys over. over. over. Because we witnessed the tact- tactile Because we witnessed the tact- tactile Because we witnessed the tact- tactile experience of God. But nowadays, most of experience of God. But nowadays, most of experience of God. But nowadays, most of us, even my charismatic sisters and us, even my charismatic sisters and us, even my charismatic sisters and brothers, would admit brothers, would admit brothers, would admit it's hard to experience an invisible it's hard to experience an invisible it's hard to experience an invisible God. So, I wanted to just come clean as God. So, I wanted to just come clean as God. So, I wanted to just come clean as a pastor and say, "Listen, this is hard. a pastor and say, "Listen, this is hard. a pastor and say, "Listen, this is hard. It's it's less tangible. Like, I can It's it's less tangible. Like, I can It's it's less tangible. Like, I can experience you, I can hold my wife's experience you, I can hold my wife's experience you, I can hold my wife's hand, I can tell my friend a joke and he hand, I can tell my friend a joke and he hand, I can tell my friend a joke and he can laugh at me, but relating to God is can laugh at me, but relating to God is can laugh at me, but relating to God is much less visceral, it's much less much less visceral, it's much less much less visceral, it's much less tactical tactile. So, I wanted to write tactical tactile. So, I wanted to write tactical tactile. So, I wanted to write a book just to show us how can we a book just to show us how can we a book just to show us how can we actually engage an invisible God in more actually engage an invisible God in more actually engage an invisible God in more tangible ways?

tangible ways? tangible ways? And and the other thing I was noticing And and the other thing I was noticing And and the other thing I was noticing is, "Look, I have bet my whole life on is, "Look, I have bet my whole life on is, "Look, I have bet my whole life on freedom in Christ. Why is my body not freedom in Christ. Why is my body not freedom in Christ. Why is my body not free? Like, my brain believes in free? Like, my brain believes in free? Like, my brain believes in freedom, my body does not, I'm all freedom, my body does not, I'm all freedom, my body does not, I'm all bound. My brain believes in the love of bound. My brain believes in the love of bound. My brain believes in the love of God. And so, you know, I dug I got God. And so, you know, I dug I got God. And so, you know, I dug I got pretty deep in the book, like it to be pretty deep in the book, like it to be pretty deep in the book, like it to be frank, Carey, as I dug deeper and deeper frank, Carey, as I dug deeper and deeper frank, Carey, as I dug deeper and deeper into my life, I realized into my life, I realized into my life, I realized "Okay, my belief in Jesus is not my core "Okay, my belief in Jesus is not my core "Okay, my belief in Jesus is not my core belief. I've always thought it was. belief. I've always thought it was. belief. I've always thought it was. It's my most precious belief, for sure. It's my most precious belief, for sure. It's my most precious belief, for sure. Jesus is my most precious, but I have Jesus is my most precious, but I have Jesus is my most precious, but I have these beliefs that take over my life. these beliefs that take over my life. these beliefs that take over my life. And one of my deepest beliefs, I don't And one of my deepest beliefs, I don't And one of my deepest beliefs, I don't know how to find it, is that I'm not know how to find it, is that I'm not know how to find it, is that I'm not worth loving. I'm not worth your time. worth loving. I'm not worth your time. worth loving. I'm not worth your time. Even now, I'm probably boring you. Like, Even now, I'm probably boring you. Like, Even now, I'm probably boring you. Like, it's crazy, Carey, the things that I say it's crazy, Carey, the things that I say it's crazy, Carey, the things that I say about myself. about myself. about myself. And so, in the book, I kind of show us And so, in the book, I kind of show us And so, in the book, I kind of show us these deeper messages of gospels. these deeper messages of gospels. these deeper messages of gospels. And I'm putting way more faith in that And I'm putting way more faith in that And I'm putting way more faith in that message than in the goodness of Jesus. message than in the goodness of Jesus. message than in the goodness of Jesus. So, when Jesus says that God knows the So, when Jesus says that God knows the So, when Jesus says that God knows the number of hairs on my head, I'm like, number of hairs on my head, I'm like, number of hairs on my head, I'm like, "No, he doesn't."

"No, he doesn't." "No, he doesn't." Like, I he doesn't bo- he doesn't bother Like, I he doesn't bo- he doesn't bother Like, I he doesn't bo- he doesn't bother with me. with me. with me. So, where do those beliefs come from? So, where do those beliefs come from? So, where do those beliefs come from? Because I think we all have them. I have Because I think we all have them. I have Because I think we all have them. I have them. I mean, totally, I've never said them. I mean, totally, I've never said them. I mean, totally, I've never said this before, but often when I'm prepping this before, but often when I'm prepping this before, but often when I'm prepping for Wednesday interviews, we usually do for Wednesday interviews, we usually do for Wednesday interviews, we usually do these on a Wednesday, these on a Wednesday, these on a Wednesday, I'm like, all right, here we go. I hope I'm like, all right, here we go. I hope I'm like, all right, here we go. I hope somebody will listen to this. Now, I somebody will listen to this. Now, I somebody will listen to this. Now, I know the math, I know people are know the math, I know people are know the math, I know people are listening to it, but listening to it, but listening to it, but I don't I don't feel the moment. Do you I don't I don't feel the moment. Do you I don't I don't feel the moment. Do you know what I mean? Now, often when I see know what I mean? Now, often when I see know what I mean? Now, often when I see the response, I'm like, oh yeah, this is the response, I'm like, oh yeah, this is the response, I'm like, oh yeah, this is great episode, or I I see it after, but great episode, or I I see it after, but great episode, or I I see it after, but in the moment, it just feels in the moment, it just feels in the moment, it just feels uh and and I mean, by the way, for the uh and and I mean, by the way, for the uh and and I mean, by the way, for the record, this has been a fantastic record, this has been a fantastic record, this has been a fantastic interview. Man, it just started with a interview. Man, it just started with a interview. Man, it just started with a bang and it keeps going. So, that's my bang and it keeps going. So, that's my bang and it keeps going. So, that's my honest assessment of it. I've had two honest assessment of it. I've had two honest assessment of it. I've had two great ones today. But, great ones today. But, great ones today. But, yeah, getting ready for it, I don't yeah, getting ready for it, I don't yeah, getting ready for it, I don't always feel it, either. Yeah. always feel it, either. Yeah. always feel it, either. Yeah. Uh it it unfortunately it does go back Uh it it unfortunately it does go back Uh it it unfortunately it does go back to our childhood. You don't have to to our childhood. You don't have to to our childhood. You don't have to rummage around rummage around rummage around go go go there. Yeah, so sorry. there. Yeah, so sorry. there. Yeah, so sorry. You don't have to rummage around in your You don't have to rummage around in your You don't have to rummage around in your childhood, but basically as a as a childhood, but basically as a as a childhood, but basically as a as a simple idea, kids are powerless in a simple idea, kids are powerless in a simple idea, kids are powerless in a world of power.

world of power. world of power. And so, we simply don't get all of our And so, we simply don't get all of our And so, we simply don't get all of our needs met even from the most loving needs met even from the most loving needs met even from the most loving people in our lives. people in our lives. people in our lives. You know, what could be for your dad or You know, what could be for your dad or You know, what could be for your dad or your school teacher could just be your school teacher could just be your school teacher could just be another Wednesday for them another Wednesday for them another Wednesday for them is a colossal wound for you. is a colossal wound for you. is a colossal wound for you. You know, like that's the way it works You know, like that's the way it works You know, like that's the way it works when you're a kid. I I have a friend when you're a kid. I I have a friend when you're a kid. I I have a friend where the school teacher dragged him up where the school teacher dragged him up where the school teacher dragged him up in third grade in front of the class and in third grade in front of the class and in third grade in front of the class and used him as an example of what not to used him as an example of what not to used him as an example of what not to be. be. be. Now, Now, Now, let's be honest, not that school let's be honest, not that school let's be honest, not that school teacher's finest moment, but here's teacher's finest moment, but here's teacher's finest moment, but here's what's crazy, that might be a decent what's crazy, that might be a decent what's crazy, that might be a decent teacher who was having a really bad day. teacher who was having a really bad day. teacher who was having a really bad day. She may not remember that, but for my She may not remember that, but for my She may not remember that, but for my friend, it shaped his whole life. friend, it shaped his whole life. friend, it shaped his whole life. And he made an agreement with himself, I And he made an agreement with himself, I And he made an agreement with himself, I will never be that exposed again. I'm will never be that exposed again. I'm will never be that exposed again. I'm going to protect myself. So, most of our going to protect myself. So, most of our going to protect myself. So, most of our anxiety and the condemnation that we anxiety and the condemnation that we anxiety and the condemnation that we carry is a weird form of carry is a weird form of carry is a weird form of self-protection. Have you ever worked self-protection. Have you ever worked self-protection. Have you ever worked with a perfectionist that when you sit with a perfectionist that when you sit with a perfectionist that when you sit down with them, they point out all the down with them, they point out all the down with them, they point out all the mistakes in their project before you mistakes in their project before you mistakes in their project before you can? They're like preempting you. I've can? They're like preempting you. I've can? They're like preempting you. I've had that happen. I've had perfectionists had that happen. I've had perfectionists had that happen. I've had perfectionists work for me, we'll have a one-on-one and work for me, we'll have a one-on-one and work for me, we'll have a one-on-one and they'll say, "Steve, before you get they'll say, "Steve, before you get they'll say, "Steve, before you get started, let me show you where I did it started, let me show you where I did it started, let me show you where I did it wrong." And I'm like, "What are you wrong." And I'm like, "What are you wrong." And I'm like, "What are you What are you talking about? I wouldn't What are you talking about? I wouldn't What are you talking about? I wouldn't have even noticed." And what is that have even noticed." And what is that have even noticed." And what is that voice in your head, right? That's what voice in your head, right? That's what voice in your head, right? That's what your inner critic is doing is it's your inner critic is doing is it's your inner critic is doing is it's condemning you to protect you from condemning you to protect you from condemning you to protect you from exterior condemnation.

exterior condemnation. exterior condemnation. But it's competing with the gospel of But it's competing with the gospel of But it's competing with the gospel of Jesus. John says in 1 John 3:19-20, Jesus. John says in 1 John 3:19-20, Jesus. John says in 1 John 3:19-20, "This is how we "This is how we "This is how we uh relax into God's presence." Is the uh relax into God's presence." Is the uh relax into God's presence." Is the way I would say it. way I would say it. way I would say it. Is even when our heart condemns us, God Is even when our heart condemns us, God Is even when our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and he knows is greater than our heart and he knows is greater than our heart and he knows everything. everything. everything. So, whenever we are vulnerable and So, whenever we are vulnerable and So, whenever we are vulnerable and exposed, which we are with God, God exposed, which we are with God, God exposed, which we are with God, God knows everything and sees everything, knows everything and sees everything, knows everything and sees everything, whenever we are vulnerable and exposed, whenever we are vulnerable and exposed, whenever we are vulnerable and exposed, we try to protect ourself by condemning we try to protect ourself by condemning we try to protect ourself by condemning ourself so that God can't and by doing ourself so that God can't and by doing ourself so that God can't and by doing that, it's hard for us to then relax that, it's hard for us to then relax that, it's hard for us to then relax into the love of God because we're into the love of God because we're into the love of God because we're depending on ourself to be well instead depending on ourself to be well instead depending on ourself to be well instead of relaxing into God's love. So, that's of relaxing into God's love. So, that's of relaxing into God's love. So, that's kind of in a nutshell. I get into it kind of in a nutshell. I get into it kind of in a nutshell. I get into it more in the book on how to do that, but more in the book on how to do that, but more in the book on how to do that, but that's kind of what's happening. Let's that's kind of what's happening. Let's that's kind of what's happening. Let's talk about feeling it in your body. Mhm. talk about feeling it in your body. Mhm. talk about feeling it in your body. Mhm. Your body not releasing it. I think, you Your body not releasing it. I think, you Your body not releasing it. I think, you know, it's still on the New York Times know, it's still on the New York Times know, it's still on the New York Times bestsellers list. Not an easy book to bestsellers list. Not an easy book to bestsellers list. Not an easy book to read. I haven't read it for full read. I haven't read it for full read. I haven't read it for full disclosure, but my wife has. The Body disclosure, but my wife has. The Body disclosure, but my wife has. The Body Keeps the Score Yep. by What is it?

Keeps the Score Yep. by What is it? Keeps the Score Yep. by What is it? Bessel van der Kolk? Yep, something like Bessel van der Kolk? Yep, something like Bessel van der Kolk? Yep, something like that. Dutch dude. that. Dutch dude. that. Dutch dude. Anyway, um Anyway, um Anyway, um you know, and talks about the body you know, and talks about the body you know, and talks about the body holding on to trauma. holding on to trauma. holding on to trauma. So, how does that work and how would you So, how does that work and how would you So, how does that work and how would you know you're experiencing that and what know you're experiencing that and what know you're experiencing that and what do you do about it? Such a a great do you do about it? Such a a great do you do about it? Such a a great question. We We would benefit from Mrs. question. We We would benefit from Mrs. question. We We would benefit from Mrs. Kuss, the friendly neighborhood trauma Kuss, the friendly neighborhood trauma Kuss, the friendly neighborhood trauma therapist, being on the show. therapist, being on the show. therapist, being on the show. Uh most of what I've learned about Uh most of what I've learned about Uh most of what I've learned about trauma, I know from Lisa. trauma, I know from Lisa. trauma, I know from Lisa. But it's still true whether it's trauma But it's still true whether it's trauma But it's still true whether it's trauma or not, or not, or not, um our body reveals our core beliefs. um our body reveals our core beliefs. um our body reveals our core beliefs. And our brain holds our precious belief And our brain holds our precious belief And our brain holds our precious belief in Jesus, particularly those of us in Jesus, particularly those of us in Jesus, particularly those of us like I'm in a I'm in a stream of like I'm in a I'm in a stream of like I'm in a I'm in a stream of Christianity that's highly cognitive. Christianity that's highly cognitive. Christianity that's highly cognitive. And I am And I am And I am Same. Yeah. And I'm bent toward the Same. Yeah. And I'm bent toward the Same. Yeah. And I'm bent toward the cognitive. cognitive. cognitive. Um and so okay, so I believe in God's Um and so okay, so I believe in God's Um and so okay, so I believe in God's love. I can tell it to you and quote the love. I can tell it to you and quote the love. I can tell it to you and quote the verses. verses. verses. But my body acts as if I have to earn it But my body acts as if I have to earn it But my body acts as if I have to earn it or provide it or there's never enough of or provide it or there's never enough of or provide it or there's never enough of it to go around or I've lost it.

it to go around or I've lost it. it to go around or I've lost it. And so you can learn over time and again And so you can learn over time and again And so you can learn over time and again I I give us I it's really important for I I give us I it's really important for I I give us I it's really important for me to give tactical tools cuz on a me to give tactical tools cuz on a me to give tactical tools cuz on a podcast I do this I I don't want to like podcast I do this I I don't want to like podcast I do this I I don't want to like leave people hanging. But in the book I leave people hanging. But in the book I leave people hanging. But in the book I lead us through a series of tools where lead us through a series of tools where lead us through a series of tools where you can learn to physiologically relax you can learn to physiologically relax you can learn to physiologically relax into God's presence. Can you give us an into God's presence. Can you give us an into God's presence. Can you give us an example? Mhm. Yeah, so if you can notice example? Mhm. Yeah, so if you can notice example? Mhm. Yeah, so if you can notice like control, like next time you go to like control, like next time you go to like control, like next time you go to mow the lawn out of grumpiness, which mow the lawn out of grumpiness, which mow the lawn out of grumpiness, which may happen less and less as you get may happen less and less as you get may happen less and less as you get older. That's not uncommon Carey that older. That's not uncommon Carey that older. That's not uncommon Carey that Yeah, it does happen less and less, but Yeah, it does happen less and less, but Yeah, it does happen less and less, but it does still happen. Well, I actually it does still happen. Well, I actually it does still happen. Well, I actually enjoy mowing the lawn as anyone who enjoy mowing the lawn as anyone who enjoy mowing the lawn as anyone who follows me on Instagram knows. follows me on Instagram knows. follows me on Instagram knows. It's a happy obsession. It's a happy obsession. It's a happy obsession. Well, and Tony could maybe help us here Well, and Tony could maybe help us here Well, and Tony could maybe help us here by um provoking you. Maybe she would do by um provoking you. Maybe she would do by um provoking you. Maybe she would do us all a favor and provoke you into us all a favor and provoke you into us all a favor and provoke you into anxiety and then anxiety and then anxiety and then happens, you know, Steve, never. Um but happens, you know, Steve, never. Um but happens, you know, Steve, never. Um but if you the the first step is noticing. if you the the first step is noticing. if you the the first step is noticing. So if you can learn to notice your body So if you can learn to notice your body So if you can learn to notice your body um you notice three places, your um you notice three places, your um you notice three places, your spinning mind for some of us, racing spinning mind for some of us, racing spinning mind for some of us, racing heart for some of us heart for some of us heart for some of us and then tightening body for some of us.

and then tightening body for some of us. and then tightening body for some of us. And if you can learn to first notice And if you can learn to first notice And if you can learn to first notice your physiological reaction your physiological reaction your physiological reaction or you for some people Carey it can be or you for some people Carey it can be or you for some people Carey it can be as simple as uh realizing as simple as uh realizing as simple as uh realizing I'm not on the couch watching Netflix, I'm not on the couch watching Netflix, I'm not on the couch watching Netflix, I'm binging. Like I've gone from I'm binging. Like I've gone from I'm binging. Like I've gone from relaxing relaxing relaxing to binging. to binging. to binging. That would be the same with eating and That would be the same with eating and That would be the same with eating and drinking. You know, a glass of wine, drinking. You know, a glass of wine, drinking. You know, a glass of wine, great. A bottle of wine, that's a great. A bottle of wine, that's a great. A bottle of wine, that's a problem. problem. problem. And so, what you're noticing is your And so, what you're noticing is your And so, what you're noticing is your coping mechanisms coping mechanisms coping mechanisms when you didn't get what you think you when you didn't get what you think you when you didn't get what you think you needed. Mhm. Control or needing to be needed. Mhm. Control or needing to be needed. Mhm. Control or needing to be liked, whatever it is. liked, whatever it is. liked, whatever it is. Uh and then you are intentionally Uh and then you are intentionally Uh and then you are intentionally dis- dis- dis- diffusing your anxiety and remembering diffusing your anxiety and remembering diffusing your anxiety and remembering God's presence. So, I've talked before God's presence. So, I've talked before God's presence. So, I've talked before about a life-giving list. I love that. about a life-giving list. I love that. about a life-giving list. I love that. I'm just trying to Yeah, it's still one I'm just trying to Yeah, it's still one I'm just trying to Yeah, it's still one of my favorite tools. I'm just trying to of my favorite tools. I'm just trying to of my favorite tools. I'm just trying to stub my toe on the love of God eight to stub my toe on the love of God eight to stub my toe on the love of God eight to 12 times a day. Mhm. 12 times a day. Mhm. 12 times a day. Mhm. Um so, that's one thing. In the new Um so, that's one thing. In the new Um so, that's one thing. In the new book, I've got a new tool I'm really book, I've got a new tool I'm really book, I've got a new tool I'm really excited about it. I call it put yourself excited about it. I call it put yourself excited about it. I call it put yourself on your conscious list of relationships.

on your conscious list of relationships. on your conscious list of relationships. It's It's It's Carrie, I need to work on the title. Carrie, I need to work on the title. Carrie, I need to work on the title. It's a little long. But, that's the It's a little long. But, that's the It's a little long. But, that's the tool. Put yourself If I were to ask you, tool. Put yourself If I were to ask you, tool. Put yourself If I were to ask you, Carrie, who are you in relationship Carrie, who are you in relationship Carrie, who are you in relationship with? You would get to your second with? You would get to your second with? You would get to your second cousin twice removed before you would cousin twice removed before you would cousin twice removed before you would name yourself. Mhm. We just don't name yourself. Mhm. We just don't name yourself. Mhm. We just don't consider that we're in relationship with consider that we're in relationship with consider that we're in relationship with ourself, but we are. ourself, but we are. ourself, but we are. And then it gets really interesting when And then it gets really interesting when And then it gets really interesting when I say, "Okay, I say, "Okay, I say, "Okay, list three things that you do for people list three things that you do for people list three things that you do for people you love. you love. you love. List one thing you do to yourself you List one thing you do to yourself you List one thing you do to yourself you would never do to someone you love." Oh, would never do to someone you love." Oh, would never do to someone you love." Oh, yeah. So, in my life, yeah. So, in my life, yeah. So, in my life, I call my I call my friends and I check I call my I call my friends and I check I call my I call my friends and I check on them. on them. on them. When they tell me how they're doing, I When they tell me how they're doing, I When they tell me how they're doing, I believe them. I don't say, "Suck it up, believe them. I don't say, "Suck it up, believe them. I don't say, "Suck it up, Dave." I'd never say that to Dave, even Dave." I'd never say that to Dave, even Dave." I'd never say that to Dave, even though I say it to myself all the time. though I say it to myself all the time. though I say it to myself all the time. Um and then I try to give them words of Um and then I try to give them words of Um and then I try to give them words of encouragement. Something I do to myself encouragement. Something I do to myself encouragement. Something I do to myself I did I started this tool in 2016, so I I did I started this tool in 2016, so I I did I started this tool in 2016, so I don't do this as much anymore. I used to don't do this as much anymore. I used to don't do this as much anymore. I used to call myself a 50 to 100 times a call myself a 50 to 100 times a call myself a 50 to 100 times a week. week. week. Yeah. I actually counted it in the Yeah. I actually counted it in the Yeah. I actually counted it in the research for this. I I took inventory of research for this. I I took inventory of research for this. I I took inventory of my life. So, I would never, Carrie, I my life. So, I would never, Carrie, I my life. So, I would never, Carrie, I would never in a million years call you would never in a million years call you would never in a million years call you a Call you a No. But, I a Call you a No. But, I a Call you a No. But, I freely do it to myself. And so, what I'm freely do it to myself. And so, what I'm freely do it to myself. And so, what I'm trying to do trying to do trying to do is I'm so obsessed with loving my is I'm so obsessed with loving my is I'm so obsessed with loving my neighbor as myself, I've forgotten to neighbor as myself, I've forgotten to neighbor as myself, I've forgotten to love myself as my neighbor.

love myself as my neighbor. love myself as my neighbor. And how can I relax into the love of God And how can I relax into the love of God And how can I relax into the love of God when I'm treating myself so poorly? This when I'm treating myself so poorly? This when I'm treating myself so poorly? This is not self-actualization. This isn't is not self-actualization. This isn't is not self-actualization. This isn't some kind of self-improvement. I'm some kind of self-improvement. I'm some kind of self-improvement. I'm talking about worship. talking about worship. talking about worship. So, what I picture with my conscious So, what I picture with my conscious So, what I picture with my conscious list of relationships is first of all, list of relationships is first of all, list of relationships is first of all, number one, I'm in relationship with number one, I'm in relationship with number one, I'm in relationship with myself. Do I know how I'm doing? myself. Do I know how I'm doing? myself. Do I know how I'm doing? And for me, most often I don't. Somebody And for me, most often I don't. Somebody And for me, most often I don't. Somebody says, "How are you doing, Steve?" And I says, "How are you doing, Steve?" And I says, "How are you doing, Steve?" And I say, "I'm fine." say, "I'm fine." say, "I'm fine." Which is code for Which is code for Which is code for I have no idea. I don't think about it. I have no idea. I don't think about it. I have no idea. I don't think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is what it's code for. Yep. So, if That is what it's code for. Yep. So, if That is what it's code for. Yep. So, if you're like me, then Haven't thought you're like me, then Haven't thought you're like me, then Haven't thought about it. I've committed to wait until I about it. I've committed to wait until I about it. I've committed to wait until I know the answer. When somebody now asks know the answer. When somebody now asks know the answer. When somebody now asks me, I say to them, "I don't know how I'm me, I say to them, "I don't know how I'm me, I say to them, "I don't know how I'm doing. I'm so glad you asked cuz I don't doing. I'm so glad you asked cuz I don't doing. I'm so glad you asked cuz I don't know. know. know. Let's wait and see." And it usually Let's wait and see." And it usually Let's wait and see." And it usually takes me about 30 seconds. takes me about 30 seconds. takes me about 30 seconds. And that's when I discover, oh, the And that's when I discover, oh, the And that's when I discover, oh, the reason they're asking me how I'm doing reason they're asking me how I'm doing reason they're asking me how I'm doing is they know I'm anxious and I don't is they know I'm anxious and I don't is they know I'm anxious and I don't know I'm anxious. It's really humbling, know I'm anxious. It's really humbling, know I'm anxious. It's really humbling, especially as an anxiety expert. Like, especially as an anxiety expert. Like, especially as an anxiety expert. Like, I'm still I'm still I'm still generally out of touch with my anxiety.

generally out of touch with my anxiety. generally out of touch with my anxiety. Now that I've done that, I can start to Now that I've done that, I can start to Now that I've done that, I can start to realize the way I treat myself I would realize the way I treat myself I would realize the way I treat myself I would never treat my friends. What if I never treat my friends. What if I never treat my friends. What if I started to treat myself started to treat myself started to treat myself the way I treat my friends? So, now I've the way I treat my friends? So, now I've the way I treat my friends? So, now I've learned to check on myself a few times a learned to check on myself a few times a learned to check on myself a few times a day, and I've learned to believe myself. day, and I've learned to believe myself. day, and I've learned to believe myself. I was raised in a family where I didn't I was raised in a family where I didn't I was raised in a family where I didn't have the rights to my emotions. And have the rights to my emotions. And have the rights to my emotions. And Look, I was raised in a great family. Look, I was raised in a great family. Look, I was raised in a great family. But we did not we did not give ourselves But we did not we did not give ourselves But we did not we did not give ourselves permission to have emotions. permission to have emotions. permission to have emotions. And so, believing myself has been huge And so, believing myself has been huge And so, believing myself has been huge for me, Carey. Cuz I What we do as for me, Carey. Cuz I What we do as for me, Carey. Cuz I What we do as leaders is we syncretize our anxiety leaders is we syncretize our anxiety leaders is we syncretize our anxiety with the gospel. with the gospel. with the gospel. So, I would say, "Well, a pastor doesn't So, I would say, "Well, a pastor doesn't So, I would say, "Well, a pastor doesn't get to be a human. I'm a pastor. I got get to be a human. I'm a pastor. I got get to be a human. I'm a pastor. I got to get back in there and go and get to get back in there and go and get to get back in there and go and get pummeled and let them treat me like a pummeled and let them treat me like a pummeled and let them treat me like a punching bag and punching bag and punching bag and meet with all these people with cancer, meet with all these people with cancer, meet with all these people with cancer, but I can't grieve. but I can't grieve. but I can't grieve. But believing myself, I've now opened my But believing myself, I've now opened my But believing myself, I've now opened my life up to a world of emotions. It's life up to a world of emotions. It's life up to a world of emotions. It's very uncomfortable for me. very uncomfortable for me. very uncomfortable for me. And I get to feel my feelings and I'm a And I get to feel my feelings and I'm a And I get to feel my feelings and I'm a healthier person. That was a long healthier person. That was a long healthier person. That was a long answer, but that's a way that you can answer, but that's a way that you can answer, but that's a way that you can relax into God's presence. We syncretize relax into God's presence. We syncretize relax into God's presence. We syncretize our emotions with the gospel.

our emotions with the gospel. our emotions with the gospel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. It's huge. It's huge. Is there you know, I know I read the Is there you know, I know I read the Is there you know, I know I read the book to endorse it months and months and book to endorse it months and months and book to endorse it months and months and months ago and then months ago and then months ago and then Yeah, you did. refreshed. Is that Is Yeah, you did. refreshed. Is that Is Yeah, you did. refreshed. Is that Is that in the book or have you written on that in the book or have you written on that in the book or have you written on that elsewhere? that elsewhere? that elsewhere? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I said it quite that I don't know that I said it quite that I don't know that I said it quite that succinctly, but yes, it's succinctly, but yes, it's succinctly, but yes, it's good, man. Like good, man. Like good, man. Like there. The implication for preaching, if there. The implication for preaching, if there. The implication for preaching, if you're preaching to 100 people or 1,000 you're preaching to 100 people or 1,000 you're preaching to 100 people or 1,000 people or 10,000 people, everyone is people or 10,000 people, everyone is people or 10,000 people, everyone is syncretizing what you are saying about syncretizing what you are saying about syncretizing what you are saying about the gospel to their emotions. Never the gospel to their emotions. Never the gospel to their emotions. Never thought about it that way. thought about it that way. thought about it that way. Wow. Um Wow. Um Wow. Um Love to go to the third point you talk Love to go to the third point you talk Love to go to the third point you talk about. I thought I'd be further along by about. I thought I'd be further along by about. I thought I'd be further along by now. Enter every leader everywhere. And now. Enter every leader everywhere. And now. Enter every leader everywhere. And I've had the privilege of of hanging out I've had the privilege of of hanging out I've had the privilege of of hanging out with some of the top like leaders of the with some of the top like leaders of the with some of the top like leaders of the biggest churches, the biggest companies, biggest churches, the biggest companies, biggest churches, the biggest companies, the biggest organizations Yeah. in the biggest organizations Yeah. in the biggest organizations Yeah. in America, in the world. America, in the world. America, in the world. Almost to a person, there's two things Almost to a person, there's two things Almost to a person, there's two things and I think they're both sincerely true. and I think they're both sincerely true. and I think they're both sincerely true. Number one, I had no idea it would be Number one, I had no idea it would be Number one, I had no idea it would be this big. Yeah.

this big. Yeah. this big. Yeah. And And And I thought I'd be further along by now. I thought I'd be further along by now. I thought I'd be further along by now. Yeah. You know, it's like It's like I Yeah. You know, it's like It's like I Yeah. You know, it's like It's like I would I would put myself in that would I would put myself in that would I would put myself in that category. Never thought I would be doing category. Never thought I would be doing category. Never thought I would be doing what I'm doing. Never thought it would what I'm doing. Never thought it would what I'm doing. Never thought it would have this kind of reach. And I thought have this kind of reach. And I thought have this kind of reach. And I thought think I would be further along by now. think I would be further along by now. think I would be further along by now. What's underneath that? What's underneath that? What's underneath that? The The The What's underneath that is the humans What's underneath that is the humans What's underneath that is the humans desire to be God. desire to be God. desire to be God. And to be blunt, Uh sorry, I didn't hear And to be blunt, Uh sorry, I didn't hear And to be blunt, Uh sorry, I didn't hear the question. the question. the question. Next question. Yeah. Next question. Yeah. Next question. Yeah. The like your answer. The like your answer. The like your answer. that humans were offered in the Garden that humans were offered in the Garden that humans were offered in the Garden of Eden is you can be like God. And so of Eden is you can be like God. And so of Eden is you can be like God. And so we try to be in control, we try to be we try to be in control, we try to be we try to be in control, we try to be perfect, we try to know everything. perfect, we try to know everything. perfect, we try to know everything. We we refuse to realize I am a human We we refuse to realize I am a human We we refuse to realize I am a human being. being. being. And and history has been changed by And and history has been changed by And and history has been changed by human-sized followers of a supernatural human-sized followers of a supernatural human-sized followers of a supernatural God. God. God. But most leaders try to be superhuman But most leaders try to be superhuman But most leaders try to be superhuman and we cross into God's territory. and we cross into God's territory. and we cross into God's territory. But honestly, Carey, to be frank, I But honestly, Carey, to be frank, I But honestly, Carey, to be frank, I wrote the chapter for congregants more wrote the chapter for congregants more wrote the chapter for congregants more than leaders Mhm. because what we do in than leaders Mhm. because what we do in than leaders Mhm. because what we do in the church is we perpetuate assumptions the church is we perpetuate assumptions the church is we perpetuate assumptions and then we read those assumptions onto and then we read those assumptions onto and then we read those assumptions onto scripture. So, we share clichés with scripture. So, we share clichés with scripture. So, we share clichés with each other that aren't in the Bible, but each other that aren't in the Bible, but each other that aren't in the Bible, but then when we open our Bible, we read then when we open our Bible, we read then when we open our Bible, we read them on. So, them on. So, them on. So, the simplest example I put it in the the simplest example I put it in the the simplest example I put it in the book is Peter walking on water. Like book is Peter walking on water. Like book is Peter walking on water. Like have you ever heard a sermon or read a have you ever heard a sermon or read a have you ever heard a sermon or read a book book book where somebody says, "All right, where somebody says, "All right, where somebody says, "All right, everyone, everyone, everyone, Peter walked on water, 11 disciples did Peter walked on water, 11 disciples did Peter walked on water, 11 disciples did not walk on water.

not walk on water. not walk on water. At the end of the story, At the end of the story, At the end of the story, all 12 worshiped Jesus. all 12 worshiped Jesus. all 12 worshiped Jesus. So, here's a good exegetical treatment So, here's a good exegetical treatment So, here's a good exegetical treatment of the passage. Stay in the boat, watch of the passage. Stay in the boat, watch of the passage. Stay in the boat, watch your friend almost drown, you'll worship your friend almost drown, you'll worship your friend almost drown, you'll worship Jesus anyway." Jesus anyway." Jesus anyway." But every week in our pulpits, we expect But every week in our pulpits, we expect But every week in our pulpits, we expect our whole congregation to be Peter that our whole congregation to be Peter that our whole congregation to be Peter that week. Get out of the boat. Get out of week. Get out of the boat. Get out of week. Get out of the boat. Get out of the boat, walk by faith. the boat, walk by faith. the boat, walk by faith. There's some interesting things here. There's some interesting things here. There's some interesting things here. Peter walked on water one time in his Peter walked on water one time in his Peter walked on water one time in his life, but we feel a low-grade guilt that life, but we feel a low-grade guilt that life, but we feel a low-grade guilt that we should always every week be walking we should always every week be walking we should always every week be walking on water. 92% of the disciples stayed in on water. 92% of the disciples stayed in on water. 92% of the disciples stayed in the boat. the boat. the boat. Um we don't talk about them. What about Um we don't talk about them. What about Um we don't talk about them. What about our congregants that, for example, maybe our congregants that, for example, maybe our congregants that, for example, maybe they are risk assessors for an insurance they are risk assessors for an insurance they are risk assessors for an insurance company? Maybe they really good at company? Maybe they really good at company? Maybe they really good at assessing risk. And so So, while Peter assessing risk. And so So, while Peter assessing risk. And so So, while Peter is walking on water, they've opened a is walking on water, they've opened a is walking on water, they've opened a spreadsheet in the boat and they're like spreadsheet in the boat and they're like spreadsheet in the boat and they're like doing a cost-benefit analysis of walking doing a cost-benefit analysis of walking doing a cost-benefit analysis of walking on water. on water. on water. Is that person allowed to be a follower Is that person allowed to be a follower Is that person allowed to be a follower of Christ or must they always be Peter? of Christ or must they always be Peter? of Christ or must they always be Peter? Until the next week we come to church Until the next week we come to church Until the next week we come to church and now the text is Mary and Martha. And and now the text is Mary and Martha. And and now the text is Mary and Martha. And now we're being told off that we're too now we're being told off that we're too now we're being told off that we're too busy. We should sit at Jesus' feet like busy. We should sit at Jesus' feet like busy. We should sit at Jesus' feet like a freaking contemplative.

a freaking contemplative. a freaking contemplative. But what's interesting, Carey, But what's interesting, Carey, But what's interesting, Carey, is Peter and Mary are nothing like each is Peter and Mary are nothing like each is Peter and Mary are nothing like each other. other. other. But we have to be both of them. But we have to be both of them. But we have to be both of them. So, that's what I get into in the book So, that's what I get into in the book So, that's what I get into in the book is the way we is the way we is the way we very we're well-meaning with our use of very we're well-meaning with our use of very we're well-meaning with our use of scripture, scripture, scripture, but we are perpetuating a well-meaning but we are perpetuating a well-meaning but we are perpetuating a well-meaning legalism legalism legalism by taking these point-in-time stories in by taking these point-in-time stories in by taking these point-in-time stories in the Bible and creating a fictional super the Bible and creating a fictional super the Bible and creating a fictional super disciple that none of us will ever be disciple that none of us will ever be disciple that none of us will ever be and none of the people in the Bible were and none of the people in the Bible were and none of the people in the Bible were either. either. either. So, And we're Moses and we're David, but So, And we're Moses and we're David, but So, And we're Moses and we're David, but not that kind of David. David against not that kind of David. David against not that kind of David. David against the Philistines, but not David with the Philistines, but not David with the Philistines, but not David with Bathsheba, right? Like it's so Right. Bathsheba, right? Like it's so Right. Bathsheba, right? Like it's so Right. When have you heard a a sermon say, When have you heard a a sermon say, When have you heard a a sermon say, "Hey, be David lay naked with a "Hey, be David lay naked with a "Hey, be David lay naked with a concubine in your old age." Nope. concubine in your old age." Nope. concubine in your old age." Nope. Not that kind of We don't want that kind Not that kind of We don't want that kind Not that kind of We don't want that kind of David. I mean, obviously I'm being a of David. I mean, obviously I'm being a of David. I mean, obviously I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but um Yeah. But bit tongue-in-cheek, but um Yeah. But bit tongue-in-cheek, but um Yeah. But that This is the problem and and so, you that This is the problem and and so, you that This is the problem and and so, you know, in my training in systems theory, know, in my training in systems theory, know, in my training in systems theory, one of my favorite things is to notice one of my favorite things is to notice one of my favorite things is to notice attempted solutions. attempted solutions. attempted solutions. It's It's the step past problems. To get It's It's the step past problems. To get It's It's the step past problems. To get back to leadership, back to leadership, back to leadership, uh one of the problems is leaders focus uh one of the problems is leaders focus uh one of the problems is leaders focus on problems when if we learn to focus on on problems when if we learn to focus on on problems when if we learn to focus on our attempted solutions to the problems, our attempted solutions to the problems, our attempted solutions to the problems, we would get further as leaders.

we would get further as leaders. we would get further as leaders. So, if the problem going right back to So, if the problem going right back to So, if the problem going right back to the beginning of our conversation, if the beginning of our conversation, if the beginning of our conversation, if the problem was my usual suspect critics the problem was my usual suspect critics the problem was my usual suspect critics that that that get their kicks out of kicking, they're get their kicks out of kicking, they're get their kicks out of kicking, they're not the problem, Carey. I'm the problem not the problem, Carey. I'm the problem not the problem, Carey. I'm the problem because my attempted solution is the because my attempted solution is the because my attempted solution is the problem. What's my attempted solution? problem. What's my attempted solution? problem. What's my attempted solution? Give them more of my insight. More of my Give them more of my insight. More of my Give them more of my insight. More of my insight. insight. insight. So, once I noticed my attempted solution So, once I noticed my attempted solution So, once I noticed my attempted solution and stopped it, it changed the problem. and stopped it, it changed the problem. and stopped it, it changed the problem. So, the two signs of an attempted So, the two signs of an attempted So, the two signs of an attempted solution are more of the same and try solution are more of the same and try solution are more of the same and try harder. harder. harder. You have an employee that chronically You have an employee that chronically You have an employee that chronically late for work. You sit them down, you late for work. You sit them down, you late for work. You sit them down, you give them your insight. They're still give them your insight. They're still give them your insight. They're still late, you then try harder to give them late, you then try harder to give them late, you then try harder to give them more insight. They're still late, you do more insight. They're still late, you do more insight. They're still late, you do more of the same, another meeting. more of the same, another meeting. more of the same, another meeting. You're the problem now. You're the You're the problem now. You're the You're the problem now. You're the problem. That's an attempted solution. problem. That's an attempted solution. problem. That's an attempted solution. Christians have this relationship with Christians have this relationship with Christians have this relationship with the Bible the Bible the Bible where we open to the book of Acts where we open to the book of Acts where we open to the book of Acts chapter 2 chapter 2 chapter 2 and we say, "Look at what they did. They and we say, "Look at what they did. They and we say, "Look at what they did. They sold everything, they were in sold everything, they were in sold everything, they were in fellowship, they broke bread, they fellowship, they broke bread, they fellowship, they broke bread, they prayed." Well, that's the vision of the prayed." Well, that's the vision of the prayed." Well, that's the vision of the church. church. church. But our attempted solution is we should But our attempted solution is we should But our attempted solution is we should try harder to be more like them. We try harder to be more like them. We try harder to be more like them. We should do more of that and we can't. We should do more of that and we can't. We should do more of that and we can't. We are in 21st century Western culture is are in 21st century Western culture is are in 21st century Western culture is radically different than the Roman radically different than the Roman radically different than the Roman Empire. We're not in the shadow of Empire. We're not in the shadow of Empire. We're not in the shadow of Pentecost the way they were.

Pentecost the way they were. Pentecost the way they were. And and so we end up trying harder, more And and so we end up trying harder, more And and so we end up trying harder, more of the same, and we're missing God of the same, and we're missing God of the same, and we're missing God through that whole thing. through that whole thing. through that whole thing. We have touched on so much and it has We have touched on so much and it has We have touched on so much and it has been such a rich conversation. been such a rich conversation. been such a rich conversation. And I'm going to ask you that this might And I'm going to ask you that this might And I'm going to ask you that this might be impossible to answer and if it is, be impossible to answer and if it is, be impossible to answer and if it is, just take a pass. But I want you to just take a pass. But I want you to just take a pass. But I want you to imagine that 5 years from now church imagine that 5 years from now church imagine that 5 years from now church leaders are much healthier. You said leaders are much healthier. You said leaders are much healthier. You said already we're a little bit healthier, already we're a little bit healthier, already we're a little bit healthier, maybe significantly healthier than we maybe significantly healthier than we maybe significantly healthier than we were 5 years ago, which is awesome. were 5 years ago, which is awesome. were 5 years ago, which is awesome. But if we were all going to be much But if we were all going to be much But if we were all going to be much healthier healthier healthier 5 years from now 5 years from now 5 years from now and I know there's a hundred things we and I know there's a hundred things we and I know there's a hundred things we could do. But what is one thing you could do. But what is one thing you could do. But what is one thing you would say, "Pay attention to this. Focus would say, "Pay attention to this. Focus would say, "Pay attention to this. Focus on this." on this." on this." If you don't mind me giving two quick If you don't mind me giving two quick If you don't mind me giving two quick things, there are two things every things, there are two things every things, there are two things every leader can do. leader can do. leader can do. Yep. Every leader can make three Yep. Every leader can make three Yep. Every leader can make three columns. What's mine to carry? columns. What's mine to carry? columns. What's mine to carry? What's God's? What's God's? What's God's? What's theirs? I don't know who theirs What's theirs? I don't know who theirs What's theirs? I don't know who theirs is for you. It could be your critics, it is for you. It could be your critics, it is for you. It could be your critics, it could be the rest of your staff, but could be the rest of your staff, but could be the rest of your staff, but what's mine, what's God's, what's what's mine, what's God's, what's what's mine, what's God's, what's theirs. That will help a leader theirs. That will help a leader theirs. That will help a leader delineate the division of labor and do delineate the division of labor and do delineate the division of labor and do what God has asked them to do and not what God has asked them to do and not what God has asked them to do and not over function.

over function. over function. And then closely related, if leaders And then closely related, if leaders And then closely related, if leaders could believe that the best thing they could believe that the best thing they could believe that the best thing they have to offer their people is a well have to offer their people is a well have to offer their people is a well self, self, self, then that would change everything. then that would change everything. then that would change everything. Uh our scandals would decrease rapidly. Uh our scandals would decrease rapidly. Uh our scandals would decrease rapidly. Just as a general statement, these Just as a general statement, these Just as a general statement, these famous Christian leaders that fell into famous Christian leaders that fell into famous Christian leaders that fell into scandal, if we could be over simplistic, scandal, if we could be over simplistic, scandal, if we could be over simplistic, they simply weren't well. they simply weren't well. they simply weren't well. And then their attempted solutions to And then their attempted solutions to And then their attempted solutions to not being well was the problem. not being well was the problem. not being well was the problem. And then that happens And then that happens And then that happens for decades. I mean, I'm being a bit for decades. I mean, I'm being a bit for decades. I mean, I'm being a bit simplistic, but that's essentially it. simplistic, but that's essentially it. simplistic, but that's essentially it. They weren't well. Fair analysis. They weren't well. Fair analysis. They weren't well. Fair analysis. and also the solutions of their board and also the solutions of their board and also the solutions of their board uh weren't weren't well. And so if we uh weren't weren't well. And so if we uh weren't weren't well. And so if we could all work on being well, our could all work on being well, our could all work on being well, our chance, whether we're a church leader, chance, whether we're a church leader, chance, whether we're a church leader, marketplace leader, our chance of marketplace leader, our chance of marketplace leader, our chance of displaying Christ goes through the roof displaying Christ goes through the roof displaying Christ goes through the roof when we are well. And what that looks when we are well. And what that looks when we are well. And what that looks like, being well is simply that we are like, being well is simply that we are like, being well is simply that we are relaxing into God's presence. relaxing into God's presence. relaxing into God's presence. We are experiencing God as much as we're We are experiencing God as much as we're We are experiencing God as much as we're claiming God. We're no longer claiming God. We're no longer claiming God. We're no longer well-meaning hypocrites, where we well-meaning hypocrites, where we well-meaning hypocrites, where we proclaim God more than we experience proclaim God more than we experience proclaim God more than we experience God.

God. God. And that our team, like, you know, when And that our team, like, you know, when And that our team, like, you know, when you're well, it doesn't mean you're you're well, it doesn't mean you're you're well, it doesn't mean you're perfect. It means that you're all perfect. It means that you're all perfect. It means that you're all holding each other's proclivities. You holding each other's proclivities. You holding each other's proclivities. You know, my team know that I get combative, know, my team know that I get combative, know, my team know that I get combative, uh that I rush in to try to save the uh that I rush in to try to save the uh that I rush in to try to save the day. They know that about me, but I know day. They know that about me, but I know day. They know that about me, but I know their proclivities, and we just have a a their proclivities, and we just have a a their proclivities, and we just have a a grace for each other. So it's not about grace for each other. So it's not about grace for each other. So it's not about being perfect and being this amazing being perfect and being this amazing being perfect and being this amazing Christian. It's just about being human Christian. It's just about being human Christian. It's just about being human together. together. together. And that's how we change the world. And that's how we change the world. And that's how we change the world. Uh and really some of Uh and really some of Uh and really some of some of Christianity's best leaders some of Christianity's best leaders some of Christianity's best leaders today are an example of that. today are an example of that. today are an example of that. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You mean the people who are finishing You mean the people who are finishing You mean the people who are finishing well. well. well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm talking about, you know, you Yeah, I'm talking about, you know, you Yeah, I'm talking about, you know, you and I both get to work with people who and I both get to work with people who and I both get to work with people who are leading, for example, billion-dollar are leading, for example, billion-dollar are leading, for example, billion-dollar uh Christian organizations that are uh Christian organizations that are uh Christian organizations that are world-changing. world-changing. world-changing. Uh I know several of them that are Uh I know several of them that are Uh I know several of them that are phenomenal, healthy leaders. phenomenal, healthy leaders. phenomenal, healthy leaders. And of course it's not always about And of course it's not always about And of course it's not always about size. I know equally people that no size. I know equally people that no size. I know equally people that no one's ever heard of that are obscure one's ever heard of that are obscure one's ever heard of that are obscure somebody somewhere change of a hundred somebody somewhere change of a hundred somebody somewhere change of a hundred in the country after 60 years of in the country after 60 years of in the country after 60 years of ministry and just beautiful human ministry and just beautiful human ministry and just beautiful human beings. Yeah, yeah, doing doing beings. Yeah, yeah, doing doing beings. Yeah, yeah, doing doing incredible global work in Jordan or Iran incredible global work in Jordan or Iran incredible global work in Jordan or Iran you know under the radar of our you know under the radar of our you know under the radar of our awareness changing the world.

awareness changing the world. awareness changing the world. Well, the new book is called the Well, the new book is called the Well, the new book is called the expectation gap and of course if you expectation gap and of course if you expectation gap and of course if you haven't if you're not one of the five haven't if you're not one of the five haven't if you're not one of the five leaders who hasn't read managing leaders who hasn't read managing leaders who hasn't read managing leadership anxiety I would highly leadership anxiety I would highly leadership anxiety I would highly recommend that you get that book as recommend that you get that book as recommend that you get that book as well. well. well. Steve where are you hanging out online Steve where are you hanging out online Steve where are you hanging out online these days where people can find you? these days where people can find you? these days where people can find you? Yeah, easiest place to find me is Yeah, easiest place to find me is Yeah, easiest place to find me is Stevekuszwords.com. Stevekuszwords.com. Stevekuszwords.com. My last name is Kusz there's nothing any My last name is Kusz there's nothing any My last name is Kusz there's nothing any of us can do about it so I thought I of us can do about it so I thought I of us can do about it so I thought I might as well have fun with it. So might as well have fun with it. So might as well have fun with it. So Stevekuszwords.com Stevekuszwords.com Stevekuszwords.com and we actually have a simple free set and we actually have a simple free set and we actually have a simple free set of courses for people who wanted to of courses for people who wanted to of courses for people who wanted to start on this journey. start on this journey. start on this journey. They can click through and go to my They can click through and go to my They can click through and go to my company which is capable life and they company which is capable life and they company which is capable life and they can get a free dashboard of resources can get a free dashboard of resources can get a free dashboard of resources and actually begin their own journey on and actually begin their own journey on and actually begin their own journey on this. Does that include the life-giving this. Does that include the life-giving this. Does that include the life-giving list? list? list? Yeah, life-giving list. They can Yeah, life-giving list. They can Yeah, life-giving list. They can download a life-giving list. I've got a download a life-giving list. I've got a download a life-giving list. I've got a video instruction. video instruction. video instruction. Put yourself on your conscious list of Put yourself on your conscious list of Put yourself on your conscious list of relationships is another course that we relationships is another course that we relationships is another course that we teach so we actually give the people a teach so we actually give the people a teach so we actually give the people a way to do that and then the other one is way to do that and then the other one is way to do that and then the other one is the four spaces of anxiety.

the four spaces of anxiety. the four spaces of anxiety. Because in any organization the minority Because in any organization the minority Because in any organization the minority are generating the anxiety the majority are generating the anxiety the majority are generating the anxiety the majority are carrying it. are carrying it. are carrying it. And they're making micro adjustments to And they're making micro adjustments to And they're making micro adjustments to keep everything going and so in the four keep everything going and so in the four keep everything going and so in the four spaces of anxiety we teach you how to spaces of anxiety we teach you how to spaces of anxiety we teach you how to walk into any situation and see where walk into any situation and see where walk into any situation and see where the anxiety is who's generating it who's the anxiety is who's generating it who's the anxiety is who's generating it who's carrying it. Just three really simple carrying it. Just three really simple carrying it. Just three really simple and powerful tools. That's fantastic. and powerful tools. That's fantastic. and powerful tools. That's fantastic. We'll make sure we have separate links We'll make sure we have separate links We'll make sure we have separate links in the show notes to each of those three in the show notes to each of those three in the show notes to each of those three resources you just mentioned. resources you just mentioned. resources you just mentioned. So have that for you Steve. This has So have that for you Steve. This has So have that for you Steve. This has been a very very rich time together been a very very rich time together been a very very rich time together today. It's helped me immensely. today. It's helped me immensely. today. It's helped me immensely. I think it's helped a lot of leaders, I think it's helped a lot of leaders, I think it's helped a lot of leaders, too, and I just want to thank you for too, and I just want to thank you for too, and I just want to thank you for it. it. it. Gary, it it is such a thrill for me to Gary, it it is such a thrill for me to Gary, it it is such a thrill for me to get to talk to you. I I'm a listener. I get to talk to you. I I'm a listener. I get to talk to you. I I'm a listener. I love your work and I've been following love your work and I've been following love your work and I've been following it. You've been such an encouragement to it. You've been such an encouragement to it. You've been such an encouragement to me. Thank you so much for having me on. me. Thank you so much for having me on. me. Thank you so much for having me on. Well, it's mutual. Thank you.