Even Spiritual Leaders Struggle to Protect Their Inner Life

Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, we're doing something today. Hey, we're doing something today. Hey, we're doing something experimental. I would love to hear from experimental. I would love to hear from experimental. I would love to hear from you. I'm calling it required listening. you. I'm calling it required listening. you. I'm calling it required listening. So, for just three episodes, and we may So, for just three episodes, and we may So, for just three episodes, and we may do this from time to time, depending on do this from time to time, depending on do this from time to time, depending on what you think of it. what you think of it. what you think of it. It's so interesting when I've had, you It's so interesting when I've had, you It's so interesting when I've had, you know, hundreds and hundreds of know, hundreds and hundreds of know, hundreds and hundreds of conversations over 11 years. And some of conversations over 11 years. And some of conversations over 11 years. And some of you have been with me from the very you have been with me from the very you have been with me from the very beginning. You've been watching, beginning. You've been watching, beginning. You've been watching, listening. Some of you, you're more listening. Some of you, you're more listening. Some of you, you're more recent. And I find the great recent. And I find the great recent. And I find the great conversations are often worth conversations are often worth conversations are often worth re-listening to, just like you watch a re-listening to, just like you watch a re-listening to, just like you watch a great movie more than once, or you might great movie more than once, or you might great movie more than once, or you might read a favorite book more than once. read a favorite book more than once. read a favorite book more than once. Sometimes it's good to revisit key Sometimes it's good to revisit key Sometimes it's good to revisit key conversations. [music] conversations. [music] conversations. [music] And I've hand-curated three for this And I've hand-curated three for this And I've hand-curated three for this little mini-series called required little mini-series called required little mini-series called required listening. We started off with Gordon listening. We started off with Gordon listening. We started off with Gordon MacDonald, The View from 80. Got a lot MacDonald, The View from 80. Got a lot MacDonald, The View from 80. Got a lot of great reaction to that one as it of great reaction to that one as it of great reaction to that one as it aired over the years, and wanted you aired over the years, and wanted you aired over the years, and wanted you hear that one again, or maybe for the hear that one again, or maybe for the hear that one again, or maybe for the first time. So, last time I did a very first time. So, last time I did a very first time. So, last time I did a very short interview with Eugene Peterson short interview with Eugene Peterson short interview with Eugene Peterson that I shared on required listening. In that I shared on required listening. In that I shared on required listening. In this episode, we're going to sit down this episode, we're going to sit down this episode, we're going to sit down with Eugene's son, Eric, talk about the with Eugene's son, Eric, talk about the with Eugene's son, Eric, talk about the relationship he had with his dad, and relationship he had with his dad, and relationship he had with his dad, and also with his biographer, Winn Collier.

also with his biographer, Winn Collier. also with his biographer, Winn Collier. You know, even as admirable as some of You know, even as admirable as some of You know, even as admirable as some of our forebears were, they had problems. our forebears were, they had problems. our forebears were, they had problems. We're going to talk honestly about We're going to talk honestly about We're going to talk honestly about Eugene's life, um why he was worried Eugene's life, um why he was worried Eugene's life, um why he was worried about his soul, his relationship with about his soul, his relationship with about his soul, his relationship with Bono, Bono, Bono, um the writing of The Message, and the um the writing of The Message, and the um the writing of The Message, and the father-son dynamic between Eric and his father-son dynamic between Eric and his father-son dynamic between Eric and his dad, Eugene Peterson. So, share a little dad, Eugene Peterson. So, share a little dad, Eugene Peterson. So, share a little bit about Winn Collier. He was the bit about Winn Collier. He was the bit about Winn Collier. He was the founding pastor of All Souls in founding pastor of All Souls in founding pastor of All Souls in Charlottesville, Virginia, and now Charlottesville, Virginia, and now Charlottesville, Virginia, and now teaches pastoral theology and directs teaches pastoral theology and directs teaches pastoral theology and directs the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination at the Western Theological Imagination at the Western Theological Imagination at the Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. Winn has Seminary in Holland, Michigan. Winn has Seminary in Holland, Michigan. Winn has written five books and a number of written five books and a number of written five books and a number of periodicals, including A Burning in My periodicals, including A Burning in My periodicals, including A Burning in My Bones, the biography of Eugene Peterson. Bones, the biography of Eugene Peterson. Bones, the biography of Eugene Peterson. Eric Peterson has a Bachelor of Arts in Eric Peterson has a Bachelor of Arts in Eric Peterson has a Bachelor of Arts in Theology from Whitworth University, a Theology from Whitworth University, a Theology from Whitworth University, a Master of Divinity from Princeton, and a Master of Divinity from Princeton, and a Master of Divinity from Princeton, and a doctorate from Portland Seminary at doctorate from Portland Seminary at doctorate from Portland Seminary at George Fox University. He's a pastor of George Fox University. He's a pastor of George Fox University. He's a pastor of Colbert Presbyterian Church, where he's Colbert Presbyterian Church, where he's Colbert Presbyterian Church, where he's been since 1997, a good place to be. And been since 1997, a good place to be. And been since 1997, a good place to be. And now, my conversation with Eugene now, my conversation with Eugene now, my conversation with Eugene Peterson's son, Eric, and with his Peterson's son, Eric, and with his Peterson's son, Eric, and with his biographer, Winn Collier.

biographer, Winn Collier. biographer, Winn Collier. Well, welcome to the podcast, Winn and Well, welcome to the podcast, Winn and Well, welcome to the podcast, Winn and Eric. It's really good to have you. Eric. It's really good to have you. Eric. It's really good to have you. >> Good to be with you. >> Good to be with you. >> Good to be with you. >> Yeah, I've been very excited about this >> Yeah, I've been very excited about this >> Yeah, I've been very excited about this conversation. And um conversation. And um conversation. And um we're to talk about the life and legacy we're to talk about the life and legacy we're to talk about the life and legacy of of your dad in particular, Eric, and of of your dad in particular, Eric, and of of your dad in particular, Eric, and Winn, you're the authorized biographer Winn, you're the authorized biographer Winn, you're the authorized biographer of Eugene Peterson. So, I've been very of Eugene Peterson. So, I've been very of Eugene Peterson. So, I've been very excited for this, but I think it's excited for this, but I think it's excited for this, but I think it's pretty easy to throw your hands up at pretty easy to throw your hands up at pretty easy to throw your hands up at the state of church and church the state of church and church the state of church and church leadership today and roll your eyes or leadership today and roll your eyes or leadership today and roll your eyes or become cynical or deconvert, but Eugene become cynical or deconvert, but Eugene become cynical or deconvert, but Eugene was dismayed about the direction of the was dismayed about the direction of the was dismayed about the direction of the church as early as I think the 1960s. Is church as early as I think the 1960s. Is church as early as I think the 1960s. Is that an exaggeration? What did he see that an exaggeration? What did he see that an exaggeration? What did he see even decades ago that disturbed or even decades ago that disturbed or even decades ago that disturbed or bothered him about the state of the bothered him about the state of the bothered him about the state of the church? church? church? >> I think the place I would start is to >> I think the place I would start is to >> I think the place I would start is to say he wasn't an instantaneous prophet. say he wasn't an instantaneous prophet. say he wasn't an instantaneous prophet. That is I think his recognition of That is I think his recognition of That is I think his recognition of the disparity the disparity the disparity um um um of good ecclesiology took place over of good ecclesiology took place over of good ecclesiology took place over time.

time. time. And uh but I think the the thing that he And uh but I think the the thing that he And uh but I think the the thing that he kind of eventually zeroed in on or came kind of eventually zeroed in on or came kind of eventually zeroed in on or came to realize is that the North American to realize is that the North American to realize is that the North American church church church uh had failed in as much as it had begun uh had failed in as much as it had begun uh had failed in as much as it had begun to adopt to adopt to adopt sort of business principles and models sort of business principles and models sort of business principles and models for for for kind of efficiency and effectiveness. kind of efficiency and effectiveness. kind of efficiency and effectiveness. And I think his instinct was that's just And I think his instinct was that's just And I think his instinct was that's just not, you know, the the ways and the not, you know, the the ways and the not, you know, the the ways and the means of the church need to resonate means of the church need to resonate means of the church need to resonate with the ways and the means of the with the ways and the means of the with the ways and the means of the gospel. gospel. gospel. And he he recognized that there was a And he he recognized that there was a And he he recognized that there was a pretty big disconnect. And that lack of pretty big disconnect. And that lack of pretty big disconnect. And that lack of congruity congruity congruity um just left him feeling like this is um just left him feeling like this is um just left him feeling like this is not uh we're not on a good path. not uh we're not on a good path. not uh we're not on a good path. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, and I think with that too was the >> Yeah, and I think with that too was the >> Yeah, and I think with that too was the fact that he felt that poison in his own fact that he felt that poison in his own fact that he felt that poison in his own soul. soul. soul. Um Um Um you know, as an organizing pastor, this you know, as an organizing pastor, this you know, as an organizing pastor, this wasn't just something he was wasn't just something he was wasn't just something he was critiquing from afar, but it's something critiquing from afar, but it's something critiquing from afar, but it's something that he felt that he felt that he felt the tension in his own um early years of the tension in his own um early years of the tension in his own um early years of helping to found Christ Our King helping to found Christ Our King helping to found Christ Our King in Bel Air, Maryland and in Bel Air, Maryland and in Bel Air, Maryland and I think he talks about how his his I think he talks about how his his I think he talks about how his his competitive spirit and his his drive to competitive spirit and his his drive to competitive spirit and his his drive to succeed, you know, some people think succeed, you know, some people think succeed, you know, some people think that he sort of fell out of the womb an that he sort of fell out of the womb an that he sort of fell out of the womb an instant um instant um instant um uh contemplative and you know, um but uh contemplative and you know, um but uh contemplative and you know, um but but this is something that um it's it it but this is something that um it's it it but this is something that um it's it it was won over time and was won over time and was won over time and because because he saw the the danger to because because he saw the the danger to because because he saw the the danger to himself.

himself. himself. >> Well, you know, I'm glad you kind of >> Well, you know, I'm glad you kind of >> Well, you know, I'm glad you kind of went there because on the one hand from went there because on the one hand from went there because on the one hand from the books I've read of Eugene and the the books I've read of Eugene and the the books I've read of Eugene and the bios I've read and then, you know, your bios I've read and then, you know, your bios I've read and then, you know, your own work when in in the authorized own work when in in the authorized own work when in in the authorized biography, um you know, A Burning in My biography, um you know, A Burning in My biography, um you know, A Burning in My Bones, Bones, Bones, on the one hand you have this on the one hand you have this on the one hand you have this contemplative, prophetic, you know, contemplative, prophetic, you know, contemplative, prophetic, you know, self-described, I think I want to become self-described, I think I want to become self-described, I think I want to become a saint and I need a lot of work to do. a saint and I need a lot of work to do. a saint and I need a lot of work to do. On the other, you've got a very On the other, you've got a very On the other, you've got a very competitive runner who is great at competitive runner who is great at competitive runner who is great at track, a winsome personality, a guy who track, a winsome personality, a guy who track, a winsome personality, a guy who if I got this right showed up at college if I got this right showed up at college if I got this right showed up at college and said, I wonder what it takes to and said, I wonder what it takes to and said, I wonder what it takes to become student council president. So, become student council president. So, become student council president. So, there was that sort of and and you know, there was that sort of and and you know, there was that sort of and and you know, in the early days of planting a church, in the early days of planting a church, in the early days of planting a church, too, feeling the pressure for growth and too, feeling the pressure for growth and too, feeling the pressure for growth and numbers, even to keep the lights on and numbers, even to keep the lights on and numbers, even to keep the lights on and the doors open. the doors open. the doors open. So, So, So, yeah, I I mean, there is a little bit of yeah, I I mean, there is a little bit of yeah, I I mean, there is a little bit of a a dichotomy in his personality. Is a a dichotomy in his personality. Is a a dichotomy in his personality. Is that over extrapolating? Am I reading that over extrapolating? Am I reading that over extrapolating? Am I reading things into it or did he feel that that things into it or did he feel that that things into it or did he feel that that tension himself, too? That desire to tension himself, too? That desire to tension himself, too? That desire to perform and and that drive.

Eric, what did you see? Eric, what did you see? >> Yeah, you were there, Eric. >> Yeah, you were there, Eric. >> Yeah, you were there, Eric. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm not sure I was inside his head um >> I'm not sure I was inside his head um >> I'm not sure I was inside his head um during that time, but I my sense now as during that time, but I my sense now as during that time, but I my sense now as I look back on it and understand um more I look back on it and understand um more I look back on it and understand um more um that was that was a real tension. It um that was that was a real tension. It um that was that was a real tension. It was an ongoing struggle. was an ongoing struggle. was an ongoing struggle. And he had to And he had to And he had to kind of work, I think, to um kind of work, I think, to um kind of work, I think, to um to shed some of the to shed some of the to shed some of the aspirations. aspirations. aspirations. Um Um Um He I mean, he admitted almost He I mean, he admitted almost He I mean, he admitted almost confessionally to being a competitor. He confessionally to being a competitor. He confessionally to being a competitor. He knew that that was part of his knew that that was part of his knew that that was part of his temperament. temperament. temperament. And he knew that there were inherent And he knew that there were inherent And he knew that there were inherent pitfalls pitfalls pitfalls both in terms of his work as a pastor, both in terms of his work as a pastor, both in terms of his work as a pastor, but but but I think more importantly to the I think more importantly to the I think more importantly to the condition of his soul. condition of his soul. condition of his soul. Um Um Um This was a little bit later on. I mean, This was a little bit later on. I mean, This was a little bit later on. I mean, this was um this was um this was um This story that I want to tell you is Oh, I think he'd retired from Regent, so Oh, I think he'd retired from Regent, so he would have been 65, 66. I was over in he would have been 65, 66. I was over in he would have been 65, 66. I was over in Montana visiting him and he was just Montana visiting him and he was just Montana visiting him and he was just talking about this invitation that he'd talking about this invitation that he'd talking about this invitation that he'd received.

received. received. The details of which I don't recall. I'm The details of which I don't recall. I'm The details of which I don't recall. I'm not even sure we talked about them. All not even sure we talked about them. All not even sure we talked about them. All I remember is that it was an invitation I remember is that it was an invitation I remember is that it was an invitation to be a like a keynote speaker at a to be a like a keynote speaker at a to be a like a keynote speaker at a stadium event, like a 40,000 stadium event, like a 40,000 stadium event, like a 40,000 uh person venue in South America. uh person venue in South America. uh person venue in South America. And he's kind of himming and hawing And he's kind of himming and hawing And he's kind of himming and hawing around this around this around this invitation and kind of whether to go and invitation and kind of whether to go and invitation and kind of whether to go and and in my mind I'm thinking, "You're and in my mind I'm thinking, "You're and in my mind I'm thinking, "You're Eugene Peterson and this is a unique Eugene Peterson and this is a unique Eugene Peterson and this is a unique voice that the world needs to hear and voice that the world needs to hear and voice that the world needs to hear and what's the problem here? You know, we're what's the problem here? You know, we're what's the problem here? You know, we're going to we're going to multiply your going to we're going to multiply your going to we're going to multiply your influence and influence and influence and we're going to we're going to see the we're going to we're going to see the we're going to we're going to see the prayer of Jabez, you know, go you know prayer of Jabez, you know, go you know prayer of Jabez, you know, go you know And and so finally I just said, "Dad, And and so finally I just said, "Dad, And and so finally I just said, "Dad, what are worrying about, or what are you what are worrying about, or what are you what are worrying about, or what are you afraid of?" afraid of?" afraid of?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I I think this memory will haunt me >> And I I think this memory will haunt me >> And I I think this memory will haunt me till the day I die. He looked me right till the day I die. He looked me right till the day I die. He looked me right in the eye, and he said, "Eric, I'm in the eye, and he said, "Eric, I'm in the eye, and he said, "Eric, I'm afraid of losing my soul." And I I was so caught off guard by that And I I was so caught off guard by that that I I think I was just nerv- you that I I think I was just nerv- you that I I think I was just nerv- you know, in my nervousness, I just said, know, in my nervousness, I just said, know, in my nervousness, I just said, "Oh, well, I I guess that's your answer.

"Oh, well, I I guess that's your answer. "Oh, well, I I guess that's your answer. You can't do that." And You can't do that." And You can't do that." And but I've continued to think about that but I've continued to think about that but I've continued to think about that and to realize that with maybe a couple and to realize that with maybe a couple and to realize that with maybe a couple of rare exceptions, that was a point at of rare exceptions, that was a point at of rare exceptions, that was a point at which he which he which he uh generally, if almost always, said no uh generally, if almost always, said no uh generally, if almost always, said no to those big venue, big stage to those big venue, big stage to those big venue, big stage invitations. invitations. invitations. And from then on, really, he was just And from then on, really, he was just And from then on, really, he was just it was in these environments where there it was in these environments where there it was in these environments where there was a personal connection, where he was a personal connection, where he was a personal connection, where he could have real conversation, where could have real conversation, where could have real conversation, where there was a small group atmosphere, or there was a small group atmosphere, or there was a small group atmosphere, or where he was preaching where he was preaching where he was preaching a sermon for, you know, the ordination a sermon for, you know, the ordination a sermon for, you know, the ordination service of a previous student. service of a previous student. service of a previous student. >> Wow, Eric, you know, and the funny thing >> Wow, Eric, you know, and the funny thing >> Wow, Eric, you know, and the funny thing is, you talk to young leaders today, and is, you talk to young leaders today, and is, you talk to young leaders today, and it would seem like the dream, or I'm not it would seem like the dream, or I'm not it would seem like the dream, or I'm not even saying, maybe in my own soul, the even saying, maybe in my own soul, the even saying, maybe in my own soul, the dream is to be invited to be the keynote dream is to be invited to be the keynote dream is to be invited to be the keynote in front of 40,000 leaders, right? Like in front of 40,000 leaders, right? Like in front of 40,000 leaders, right? Like that's that's a that's that's a that's that's a that's a really interesting that's a really interesting that's a really interesting self-restraint self-restraint self-restraint that your dad had.

that your dad had. that your dad had. >> Yeah, but I would I mean, I think he >> Yeah, but I would I mean, I think he >> Yeah, but I would I mean, I think he practiced restraint previously. I think practiced restraint previously. I think practiced restraint previously. I think that became a discipline. I think he that became a discipline. I think he that became a discipline. I think he he really did diligently follow the way he really did diligently follow the way he really did diligently follow the way of kenosis. He was trying to go, you of kenosis. He was trying to go, you of kenosis. He was trying to go, you know, trying to empty himself of that know, trying to empty himself of that know, trying to empty himself of that ambition and pride, um achievement ambition and pride, um achievement ambition and pride, um achievement stuff. And this is stuff. And this is stuff. And this is sort of the result of that. I think he sort of the result of that. I think he sort of the result of that. I think he just was, you know, came to recognize just was, you know, came to recognize just was, you know, came to recognize that that that I'm the custodian of this soul I'm the custodian of this soul I'm the custodian of this soul and I can't I can't put it in jeopardy. and I can't I can't put it in jeopardy. and I can't I can't put it in jeopardy. Um and that kind of an environment is Um and that kind of an environment is Um and that kind of an environment is just way too seductive. just way too seductive. just way too seductive. Um Um Um Uh so it just became really clear. I Uh so it just became really clear. I Uh so it just became really clear. I can't do that. That's not can't do that. That's not can't do that. That's not I'm not a celebrity pastor. I'm not a celebrity pastor. I'm not a celebrity pastor. >> Wow. What What is kenosis? >> Wow. What What is kenosis? >> Wow. What What is kenosis? The way of kenosis. The way of kenosis. The way of kenosis. >> Oh, it's uh it's a it's a New Testament >> Oh, it's uh it's a it's a New Testament >> Oh, it's uh it's a it's a New Testament word for uh kind of self-emptying. It word for uh kind of self-emptying. It word for uh kind of self-emptying. It refers So Paul picks it up in the Christ refers So Paul picks it up in the Christ refers So Paul picks it up in the Christ hymn in Philippians, um hymn in Philippians, um hymn in Philippians, um have the same mind in you that was in have the same mind in you that was in have the same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus Christ Jesus Christ Jesus though in the form of God though in the form of God though in the form of God emptied himself.

emptied himself. emptied himself. Um and as the you know, as the great Um and as the you know, as the great Um and as the you know, as the great ones, the spiritual masters talk about ones, the spiritual masters talk about ones, the spiritual masters talk about the life in Christ, the life of the life in Christ, the life of the life in Christ, the life of discipleship is discipleship is discipleship is you know, there's there's dying. There's you know, there's there's dying. There's you know, there's there's dying. There's crucifixion. I've been crucified with crucifixion. I've been crucified with crucifixion. I've been crucified with Christ. Christ. Christ. And um And um And um and I think that's part of Eugene's and I think that's part of Eugene's and I think that's part of Eugene's grievance with the North American church grievance with the North American church grievance with the North American church is it's like it's all about triumphant is it's like it's all about triumphant is it's like it's all about triumphant and winning and success. and winning and success. and winning and success. And Jesus goes to the cross. And so the And Jesus goes to the cross. And so the And Jesus goes to the cross. And so the life of a Christ follower is one of life of a Christ follower is one of life of a Christ follower is one of kenosis, of self-emptying, of humility, kenosis, of self-emptying, of humility, kenosis, of self-emptying, of humility, service, service, service, um obscurity. um obscurity. um obscurity. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. When you had access to all of his When you had access to all of his When you had access to all of his private letters, his diaries, obviously private letters, his diaries, obviously private letters, his diaries, obviously all of his published works, all of his published works, all of his published works, um what would you add to that about the um what would you add to that about the um what would you add to that about the internal battle that Eugene faced at internal battle that Eugene faced at internal battle that Eugene faced at different stages of his life? >> Yeah, you know, a big part of me almost >> Yeah, you know, a big part of me almost just wants to pause here for a moment just wants to pause here for a moment just wants to pause here for a moment because I I'm just feeling because I I'm just feeling because I I'm just feeling um um um I'm feeling deeply moved remembering I'm feeling deeply moved remembering I'm feeling deeply moved remembering myself how myself how myself how um um um I think those of us who love Eugene, I think those of us who love Eugene, I think those of us who love Eugene, those of us who have read Eugene, those those of us who have read Eugene, those those of us who have read Eugene, those of us who at least know the name Eugene of us who at least know the name Eugene of us who at least know the name Eugene and attach It's easy for us to turn and attach It's easy for us to turn and attach It's easy for us to turn Eugene into a caricature.

Eugene into a caricature. Eugene into a caricature. And that even things like, you know, And that even things like, you know, And that even things like, you know, small church pastor itself can become a small church pastor itself can become a small church pastor itself can become a kind of formula. kind of formula. kind of formula. And I think what Eric was just, um, And I think what Eric was just, um, And I think what Eric was just, um, leading us into is the deep heart of it, leading us into is the deep heart of it, leading us into is the deep heart of it, which was it was which was it was which was it was it wasn't about any of these things it wasn't about any of these things it wasn't about any of these things themselves becoming the new agenda or themselves becoming the new agenda or themselves becoming the new agenda or the new way. It was about this the new way. It was about this the new way. It was about this deep desire deep desire deep desire to be formed to be like Jesus. to be formed to be like Jesus. to be formed to be like Jesus. And to have the life of God released in And to have the life of God released in And to have the life of God released in a human body for the sake of love for a human body for the sake of love for a human body for the sake of love for the world. the world. the world. And that Eugene said yes to that. And that Eugene said yes to that. And that Eugene said yes to that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And and and the more he said yes, the more and and the more he said yes, the more and and the more he said yes, the more he recognized, um, how dangerous this he recognized, um, how dangerous this he recognized, um, how dangerous this path was. path was. path was. And this is interesting, um, I think And this is interesting, um, I think And this is interesting, um, I think that one that one you were referring to, that one that one you were referring to, that one that one you were referring to, Eric, I think that was Brazil. Eric, I think that was Brazil. Eric, I think that was Brazil. And, um, And, um, And, um, I remember reading him in a letter, may I remember reading him in a letter, may I remember reading him in a letter, may have been to you, I can't remember, just have been to you, I can't remember, just have been to you, I can't remember, just the immense relief he felt cuz I think the immense relief he felt cuz I think the immense relief he felt cuz I think he had a he had a he had a a car wreck a car wreck a car wreck or or or an accident of some sort or there was an accident of some sort or there was an accident of some sort or there was something that happened that meant he something that happened that meant he something that happened that meant he couldn't go.

couldn't go. couldn't go. And he felt just this immense relief And he felt just this immense relief And he felt just this immense relief because because, um, he didn't want to because because, um, he didn't want to because because, um, he didn't want to let people down and now he let people down and now he let people down and now he I guess he felt like, um, some people I guess he felt like, um, some people I guess he felt like, um, some people wouldn't just take the answer of, um, wouldn't just take the answer of, um, wouldn't just take the answer of, um, this is dangerous to my soul as good this is dangerous to my soul as good this is dangerous to my soul as good enough, you know? enough, you know? enough, you know? And, um, but so this is soon after as And, um, but so this is soon after as And, um, but so this is soon after as Eric mentioned after he left Regent. And Eric mentioned after he left Regent. And Eric mentioned after he left Regent. And he also gave that in his diary as one of he also gave that in his diary as one of he also gave that in his diary as one of the reasons one of the reasons he needed the reasons one of the reasons he needed the reasons one of the reasons he needed to leave Regent to leave Regent to leave Regent is he said that he believed his soul was is he said that he believed his soul was is he said that he believed his soul was in mortal danger. in mortal danger. in mortal danger. Um, because he Um, because he Um, because he he was he felt like he was he was he felt like he was he was he felt like he was being treated something like a guru. being treated something like a guru. being treated something like a guru. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And it wasn't just like >> And it wasn't just like >> And it wasn't just like you know, I need to rethink things. It you know, I need to rethink things. It you know, I need to rethink things. It was like my my soul is in jeopardy here. was like my my soul is in jeopardy here. was like my my soul is in jeopardy here. And And And I don't know about y'all, but I I don't know about y'all, but I I don't know about y'all, but I I want to say yes to Jesus like that. I want to say yes to Jesus like that. I want to say yes to Jesus like that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I want I want to be >> I want I want to be >> I want I want to be I I want to be transformed I I want to be transformed I I want to be transformed in ways that would that my deep desire in ways that would that my deep desire in ways that would that my deep desire would be for something more than would be for something more than would be for something more than um um um the things that I think are going to the things that I think are going to the things that I think are going to bring credit to my name, you know?

bring credit to my name, you know? bring credit to my name, you know? >> Yeah, I I remember when he was at >> Yeah, I I remember when he was at >> Yeah, I I remember when he was at Regent. So, I was at seminary at Regent. So, I was at seminary at Regent. So, I was at seminary at University of Toronto in that same era University of Toronto in that same era University of Toronto in that same era where Eugene had gone to Regent, which where Eugene had gone to Regent, which where Eugene had gone to Regent, which was the early to mid '90s, wasn't it? was the early to mid '90s, wasn't it? was the early to mid '90s, wasn't it? Something like that? I think I started Something like that? I think I started Something like that? I think I started seminary in '93 and finished in '97. seminary in '93 and finished in '97. seminary in '93 and finished in '97. And he was at Regent at the time, and it And he was at Regent at the time, and it And he was at Regent at the time, and it was a buzz in Toronto. I mean, Eugene was a buzz in Toronto. I mean, Eugene was a buzz in Toronto. I mean, Eugene Peterson is at Regent, and I thought Peterson is at Regent, and I thought Peterson is at Regent, and I thought about going there about going there about going there to study, but I was married and a kid on to study, but I was married and a kid on to study, but I was married and a kid on the way and the whole deal, so I didn't. the way and the whole deal, so I didn't. the way and the whole deal, so I didn't. But yeah, there was that there was that But yeah, there was that there was that But yeah, there was that there was that buzz. He had enough prominence as an buzz. He had enough prominence as an buzz. He had enough prominence as an author, and we were all reading his author, and we were all reading his author, and we were all reading his books, and books, and books, and you know, The Message came out. Was that you know, The Message came out. Was that you know, The Message came out. Was that '93 was the first year The Message was '93 was the first year The Message was '93 was the first year The Message was published in the New Testament form? published in the New Testament form? published in the New Testament form? >> I should remember this offhand. I don't. >> I should remember this offhand. I don't. >> I should remember this offhand. I don't. >> Thereabouts. >> Thereabouts. >> Thereabouts. >> Right around there. >> Right around there. >> Right around there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> around there. So, it was it was it was a >> around there. So, it was it was it was a >> around there. So, it was it was it was a big thing. But that's one of the things big thing. But that's one of the things big thing. But that's one of the things I I really appreciated about A Burning I I really appreciated about A Burning I I really appreciated about A Burning in My Bones in My Bones in My Bones was it's not a hagiography. There was a was it's not a hagiography. There was a was it's not a hagiography. There was a lot to appreciate about Eugene, and yet lot to appreciate about Eugene, and yet lot to appreciate about Eugene, and yet you go into some of his struggles as you go into some of his struggles as you go into some of his struggles as well. And And I want to I want to talk well. And And I want to I want to talk well. And And I want to I want to talk about that. But Eric, I I'd love to Is about that. But Eric, I I'd love to Is about that. But Eric, I I'd love to Is there anything else on that before there anything else on that before there anything else on that before you know, that that deep you know, that that deep you know, that that deep peril to his soul?

peril to his soul? peril to his soul? Um maybe we should hang out in that Um maybe we should hang out in that Um maybe we should hang out in that space a little bit longer. space a little bit longer. space a little bit longer. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh I don't know that there's more to add, I don't know that there's more to add, I don't know that there's more to add, but I do think that's but I do think that's but I do think that's it's signifi- it's important to know it's signifi- it's important to know it's signifi- it's important to know that in order to understand him. And for that in order to understand him. And for that in order to understand him. And for anyone that anyone that anyone that has an admiration or is inclined to in has an admiration or is inclined to in has an admiration or is inclined to in any way emulate him, that needs to be a any way emulate him, that needs to be a any way emulate him, that needs to be a piece of it. piece of it. piece of it. Uh that there's the the struggle Uh that there's the the struggle Uh that there's the the struggle um in this culture, church culture, you um in this culture, church culture, you um in this culture, church culture, you know, tension. know, tension. know, tension. Um Um Um uh uh uh and and and um and and just that kind of that resolve, and and just that kind of that resolve, I think, is what it comes down to. It's I think, is what it comes down to. It's I think, is what it comes down to. It's just that determination. And this I just that determination. And this I just that determination. And this I believe is part of where his, you know, believe is part of where his, you know, believe is part of where his, you know, that he he he was a an enormously that he he he was a an enormously that he he he was a an enormously disciplined person. disciplined person. disciplined person. And that's where that uh shows up in And that's where that uh shows up in And that's where that uh shows up in some significant ways is the some significant ways is the some significant ways is the um uh just the the caution, the great care uh just the the caution, the great care um that he took with um um that he took with um um that he took with um sort of lifestyle and the the things sort of lifestyle and the the things sort of lifestyle and the the things that he would do and would not do in that he would do and would not do in that he would do and would not do in order to order to order to um um um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> kind of participate in that process of >> kind of participate in that process of >> kind of participate in that process of sanctification. And he did it sanctification. And he did it sanctification. And he did it imperfectly. If you read the biography, imperfectly. If you read the biography, imperfectly. If you read the biography, you'll see he was very flawed and you'll see he was very flawed and you'll see he was very flawed and um but but that was his heart's desire.

um but but that was his heart's desire. um but but that was his heart's desire. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in growth, especially when you're in growth, especially when you're in growth, especially when you're in ministry. You need an event platform ministry. You need an event platform ministry. You need an event platform that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a season of abundance. So, turn the effort season of abundance. So, turn the effort season of abundance. So, turn the effort of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. Brushfire has been helping churches Brushfire has been helping churches Brushfire has been helping churches manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 years, and it's all in one easy-to-use years, and it's all in one easy-to-use years, and it's all in one easy-to-use platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by going to brushfire.com/carey. going to brushfire.com/carey. going to brushfire.com/carey. That's b r u s h fire.com/c That's b r u s h fire.com/c That's b r u s h fire.com/c a r e y. This episode is brought to you a r e y. This episode is brought to you a r e y. This episode is brought to you by Gloo. So here's something I hear from by Gloo. So here's something I hear from by Gloo. So here's something I hear from ministry leaders. We're doing good work, ministry leaders. We're doing good work, ministry leaders. We're doing good work, but nobody knows about it. The mission but nobody knows about it. The mission but nobody knows about it. The mission is strong, but the reach isn't there. So is strong, but the reach isn't there. So is strong, but the reach isn't there. So Brian Brown is here and he leads a team Brian Brown is here and he leads a team Brian Brown is here and he leads a team within Gloo focused on helping within Gloo focused on helping within Gloo focused on helping ministries grow their reach. So Brian, ministries grow their reach. So Brian, ministries grow their reach. So Brian, when Gloo comes alongside a ministry on when Gloo comes alongside a ministry on when Gloo comes alongside a ministry on the reach side, what does that mean?

the reach side, what does that mean? the reach side, what does that mean? Like what does that actually look like? Like what does that actually look like? Like what does that actually look like? >> Yeah, it really starts with closing the >> Yeah, it really starts with closing the >> Yeah, it really starts with closing the gap. For a lot of organizations that gap. For a lot of organizations that gap. For a lot of organizations that Gloo works with, the work was never the Gloo works with, the work was never the Gloo works with, the work was never the actual problem. They just couldn't get actual problem. They just couldn't get actual problem. They just couldn't get it in front of the right people and it in front of the right people and it in front of the right people and that's what we do. We help ministries that's what we do. We help ministries that's what we do. We help ministries and nonprofits connect with donors, with and nonprofits connect with donors, with and nonprofits connect with donors, with churches, with the audiences that are churches, with the audiences that are churches, with the audiences that are already looking for what they offer already looking for what they offer already looking for what they offer through channels and networks that those through channels and networks that those through channels and networks that those people already trust. So, people already trust. So, people already trust. So, whether you're a big ministry trying to whether you're a big ministry trying to whether you're a big ministry trying to grow your donor base or a smaller grow your donor base or a smaller grow your donor base or a smaller nonprofit trying to break through all of nonprofit trying to break through all of nonprofit trying to break through all of the noise, the noise, the noise, if you know your mission matters, but if you know your mission matters, but if you know your mission matters, but you're struggling to get it out in front you're struggling to get it out in front you're struggling to get it out in front of the real people you're trying to of the real people you're trying to of the real people you're trying to connect with, that's the exact problem connect with, that's the exact problem connect with, that's the exact problem that we exist to solve. that we exist to solve. that we exist to solve. >> Well, you know, that's one of the >> Well, you know, that's one of the >> Well, you know, that's one of the reasons we partner with Gloo too at my reasons we partner with Gloo too at my reasons we partner with Gloo too at my company and you know, most of us are are company and you know, most of us are are company and you know, most of us are are smaller and we don't have the human smaller and we don't have the human smaller and we don't have the human power, the staffing to really do power, the staffing to really do power, the staffing to really do everything we want to do. So if you need everything we want to do. So if you need everything we want to do. So if you need a real marketing partner, somebody who a real marketing partner, somebody who a real marketing partner, somebody who actually gets this space and has the actually gets this space and has the actually gets this space and has the scale to do it, go to gloo.com/grow scale to do it, go to gloo.com/grow scale to do it, go to gloo.com/grow to start that conversation. I want to to start that conversation. I want to to start that conversation. I want to spell it out for you. That's spell it out for you. That's spell it out for you. That's gloo.com/grow.

Did Okay, I I hadn't thought about this Did Okay, I I hadn't thought about this question until you guys question until you guys question until you guys started chatting a little bit, but you started chatting a little bit, but you started chatting a little bit, but you know, know, know, Eugene was contemplative in the sense Eugene was contemplative in the sense Eugene was contemplative in the sense that prob- I'm guessing an introvert. Uh that prob- I'm guessing an introvert. Uh that prob- I'm guessing an introvert. Uh you know, your mom, Eric said, "Wish the you know, your mom, Eric said, "Wish the you know, your mom, Eric said, "Wish the man talked more." Like, you know, he man talked more." Like, you know, he man talked more." Like, you know, he seemed to be quiet, enjoyed silence, seemed to be quiet, enjoyed silence, seemed to be quiet, enjoyed silence, voluminous reader, um voluminous reader, um voluminous reader, um eschewed the spotlight eschewed the spotlight eschewed the spotlight etc. etc. etc. But But But sometimes we believe our own press sometimes we believe our own press sometimes we believe our own press reports. I mean, he sold a lot of books reports. I mean, he sold a lot of books reports. I mean, he sold a lot of books and the message was an international and the message was an international and the message was an international phenomena. phenomena. phenomena. Um and he doesn't claim credit for Um and he doesn't claim credit for Um and he doesn't claim credit for writing the message. He said God wrote writing the message. He said God wrote writing the message. He said God wrote that, I just translated, that's all. that, I just translated, that's all. that, I just translated, that's all. But, you know, and and you often it's But, you know, and and you often it's But, you know, and and you often it's easy to get surrounded with people who easy to get surrounded with people who easy to get surrounded with people who tell you what you want to hear. So, I'd tell you what you want to hear. So, I'd tell you what you want to hear. So, I'd like to know like to know like to know how did he remind himself or did he have how did he remind himself or did he have how did he remind himself or did he have people who reminded him that his soul people who reminded him that his soul people who reminded him that his soul could be in peril? Like, how does this could be in peril? Like, how does this could be in peril? Like, how does this stay stay stay a constant narrative a constant narrative a constant narrative even when you're 65 years old so that even when you're 65 years old so that even when you're 65 years old so that you haven't just morphed into you haven't just morphed into you haven't just morphed into some version of yourself you want to some version of yourself you want to some version of yourself you want to believe is true. Do you know what I believe is true. Do you know what I believe is true. Do you know what I mean? Like, I need to go to these stages mean? Like, I need to go to these stages mean? Like, I need to go to these stages or I need to get rid of like, how is or I need to get rid of like, how is or I need to get rid of like, how is that still a wrestling in his mind? Who that still a wrestling in his mind? Who that still a wrestling in his mind? Who or what were the influence? Were Were or what were the influence? Were Were or what were the influence? Were Were there any outside influences there any outside influences there any outside influences that helped keep that front and center that helped keep that front and center that helped keep that front and center for him?

>> Well, I think the external influences >> Well, I think the external influences were to the contrary. I think he was were to the contrary. I think he was were to the contrary. I think he was hearing voices that would were urging hearing voices that would were urging hearing voices that would were urging him to go big. Uh and so, the him to go big. Uh and so, the him to go big. Uh and so, the um um um that that care, that caution, if not the that that care, that caution, if not the that that care, that caution, if not the fear fear fear um about losing his soul or, you know, um about losing his soul or, you know, um about losing his soul or, you know, sabotaging something that was that God sabotaging something that was that God sabotaging something that was that God was trying to do or just was trying to do or just was trying to do or just um being the person that he believed he um being the person that he believed he um being the person that he believed he was made to be. I think um was made to be. I think um was made to be. I think um I mean, Winn may have a different take I mean, Winn may have a different take I mean, Winn may have a different take on this, but my own sense is that that on this, but my own sense is that that on this, but my own sense is that that emerged from emerged from emerged from a deep life of prayer. a deep life of prayer. a deep life of prayer. Mhm. Uh he was I mean, he was just the Mhm. Uh he was I mean, he was just the Mhm. Uh he was I mean, he was just the holiest man I've ever known or read holiest man I've ever known or read holiest man I've ever known or read about. Um you know, known or known of. about. Um you know, known or known of. about. Um you know, known or known of. So, So, So, I just I think this comes out of a deep I just I think this comes out of a deep I just I think this comes out of a deep piety and devotion and an attentiveness piety and devotion and an attentiveness piety and devotion and an attentiveness to to to uh himself. So, uh himself. So, uh himself. So, that that contemplative lifestyle lent that that contemplative lifestyle lent that that contemplative lifestyle lent itself towards itself towards itself towards uh being wary of the saboteurs.

uh being wary of the saboteurs. uh being wary of the saboteurs. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, without naming names, for >> You know, without naming names, for >> You know, without naming names, for sure, if you've got publishers involved, sure, if you've got publishers involved, sure, if you've got publishers involved, uh I can only imagine, knowing that uh I can only imagine, knowing that uh I can only imagine, knowing that industry a little bit, they're going to industry a little bit, they're going to industry a little bit, they're going to recommend you take all recommend you take all recommend you take all the top things that come along. And And the top things that come along. And And the top things that come along. And And that's not saying anything against that's not saying anything against that's not saying anything against publishers, that's just the industry, publishers, that's just the industry, publishers, that's just the industry, that's the way it works. that's the way it works. that's the way it works. Interesting. Win, what's your take on Interesting. Win, what's your take on Interesting. Win, what's your take on that, having poured over his papers, et that, having poured over his papers, et that, having poured over his papers, et cetera? cetera? cetera? >> Yeah, I mean, prayer is absolutely at >> Yeah, I mean, prayer is absolutely at >> Yeah, I mean, prayer is absolutely at the heart of it, and a life shaped by the heart of it, and a life shaped by the heart of it, and a life shaped by attentiveness to God. attentiveness to God. attentiveness to God. And and him And and him And and him seeking out seeking out seeking out um um um voices that were other than the the voices that were other than the the voices that were other than the the siren songs. So, you know, for large siren songs. So, you know, for large siren songs. So, you know, for large sections of his life, he had a sister sections of his life, he had a sister sections of his life, he had a sister who is his spiritual director. who is his spiritual director. who is his spiritual director. And And And um um um he he he uh uh uh he he resisted he he resisted he he resisted the the pull to uh the the large and the the pull to uh the the large and the the pull to uh the the large and magnanimous things, but he was magnanimous things, but he was magnanimous things, but he was he he was in all kinds of small circles he he was in all kinds of small circles he he was in all kinds of small circles of friendship with of friendship with of friendship with um um um you know, you know, you know, pastors and farmers and writers and pastors and farmers and writers and pastors and farmers and writers and songwriters who were just doing good songwriters who were just doing good songwriters who were just doing good faithful work, and I think he sought faithful work, and I think he sought faithful work, and I think he sought that out and and wanted to be in those that out and and wanted to be in those that out and and wanted to be in those conversations it felt true to him.

conversations it felt true to him. conversations it felt true to him. And there was something that was really And there was something that was really And there was something that was really shared in a in a vocation, even if they shared in a in a vocation, even if they shared in a in a vocation, even if they weren't doing exactly the same thing. weren't doing exactly the same thing. weren't doing exactly the same thing. So, I think the the people he listened So, I think the the people he listened So, I think the the people he listened to and trusted the most to and trusted the most to and trusted the most were the voices that most of us have were the voices that most of us have were the voices that most of us have never heard of. never heard of. never heard of. >> Yeah, Eric, what what happened to your >> Yeah, Eric, what what happened to your >> Yeah, Eric, what what happened to your dad and your mom's friendship circle as dad and your mom's friendship circle as dad and your mom's friendship circle as time went on? Did they stay grounded in time went on? Did they stay grounded in time went on? Did they stay grounded in relationships that had been around for a relationships that had been around for a relationships that had been around for a long time? I mean, we'll get to it. He long time? I mean, we'll get to it. He long time? I mean, we'll get to it. He eventually ended up hanging out with eventually ended up hanging out with eventually ended up hanging out with Bono and that's a funny story in and of Bono and that's a funny story in and of Bono and that's a funny story in and of itself. itself. itself. But like when you look at the trajectory But like when you look at the trajectory But like when you look at the trajectory of their lives, of their lives, of their lives, did their friendship circles change? How did their friendship circles change? How did their friendship circles change? How did it change? Who did they keep close did it change? Who did they keep close did it change? Who did they keep close to them? to them? to them? >> Yeah, I think they changed with the >> Yeah, I think they changed with the >> Yeah, I think they changed with the geography, the geographical changes. geography, the geographical changes. geography, the geographical changes. So, So, So, um um um I remember them talking about, I remember them talking about, I remember them talking about, you know, new friends that they made you know, new friends that they made you know, new friends that they made after leaving Bel Air in Pittsburgh when after leaving Bel Air in Pittsburgh when after leaving Bel Air in Pittsburgh when he spent a year as a writer in he spent a year as a writer in he spent a year as a writer in residence. And then the community that residence. And then the community that residence. And then the community that was rich that developed in and around was rich that developed in and around was rich that developed in and around the region community.

the region community. the region community. And um and some of those friendships And um and some of those friendships And um and some of those friendships uh transcended the miles. uh transcended the miles. uh transcended the miles. But it seemed like they were mostly But it seemed like they were mostly But it seemed like they were mostly local. local. local. Um and so by the time they kind of Um and so by the time they kind of Um and so by the time they kind of retreated to Northwest Montana for retreated to Northwest Montana for retreated to Northwest Montana for supposedly a final retirement, supposedly a final retirement, supposedly a final retirement, um um um a lot of those folks would come and a lot of those folks would come and a lot of those folks would come and visit. visit. visit. But they um they developed community But they um they developed community But they um they developed community there. Uh they were right on Flathead there. Uh they were right on Flathead there. Uh they were right on Flathead Lake and the you know, there were Lake and the you know, there were Lake and the you know, there were neighbors that they neighbors that they neighbors that they knew, they had meals with, a little knew, they had meals with, a little knew, they had meals with, a little Lutheran church they attended uh 5 miles Lutheran church they attended uh 5 miles Lutheran church they attended uh 5 miles down the road that became a rich source down the road that became a rich source down the road that became a rich source of community for them. of community for them. of community for them. And And And and I think part of what was important and I think part of what was important and I think part of what was important and valuable about and valuable about and valuable about um that Montana communities, they didn't um that Montana communities, they didn't um that Montana communities, they didn't think he was a big deal at all. They think he was a big deal at all. They think he was a big deal at all. They just thought, just thought, just thought, um you know, you Jan's delightful and um you know, you Jan's delightful and um you know, you Jan's delightful and Eugene is colorful and you know, no one Eugene is colorful and you know, no one Eugene is colorful and you know, no one no one reads books.

no one reads books. no one reads books. Um they're just, you know, they're Um they're just, you know, they're Um they're just, you know, they're pleasant people and they uh they make pleasant people and they uh they make pleasant people and they uh they make good dinner conversation. good dinner conversation. good dinner conversation. >> No, that's a that's a really interesting >> No, that's a that's a really interesting >> No, that's a that's a really interesting trend, you know, to to cultivate trend, you know, to to cultivate trend, you know, to to cultivate friendships with people who aren't friendships with people who aren't friendships with people who aren't impressed by you or don't know impressed by you or don't know impressed by you or don't know who you are because it would be easy to who you are because it would be easy to who you are because it would be easy to imagine people just jetting in and imagine people just jetting in and imagine people just jetting in and jetting out to Montana jetting out to Montana jetting out to Montana to visit with your parents and I'm sure to visit with your parents and I'm sure to visit with your parents and I'm sure that happened from time to time. that happened from time to time. that happened from time to time. But with the kind of influence But with the kind of influence But with the kind of influence that your dad had to keep those local that your dad had to keep those local that your dad had to keep those local humble friendships humble friendships humble friendships I think is I think is I think is is really instructive and so is really instructive and so is really instructive and so countercultural today. So countercultural today. So countercultural today. So countercultural for ambitious and driven countercultural for ambitious and driven countercultural for ambitious and driven leaders. Eric, I'd love to know what leaders. Eric, I'd love to know what leaders. Eric, I'd love to know what were some of the were some of the were some of the earliest memories you have of your dad. earliest memories you have of your dad. earliest memories you have of your dad. >> I think when asked me that when he was >> I think when asked me that when he was >> I think when asked me that when he was interviewing me for the biography. interviewing me for the biography. interviewing me for the biography. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> And I don't know if this is the same >> And I don't know if this is the same >> And I don't know if this is the same answer that I gave him, but um answer that I gave him, but um answer that I gave him, but um but but but uh I I we I loved being close to him uh I I we I loved being close to him uh I I we I loved being close to him physically.

physically. physically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um we had a we had a physical kind of >> Um we had a we had a physical kind of >> Um we had a we had a physical kind of wrestling relationship uh when I was a wrestling relationship uh when I was a wrestling relationship uh when I was a kid and he as a you know, an East Coast kid and he as a you know, an East Coast kid and he as a you know, an East Coast Presbyterian pastor wore a Geneva gown Presbyterian pastor wore a Geneva gown Presbyterian pastor wore a Geneva gown to lead worship. Um to lead worship. Um to lead worship. Um And the you know, the tabs and the And the you know, the tabs and the And the you know, the tabs and the collar and collar and collar and >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> um so it was pretty formal and after >> um so it was pretty formal and after >> um so it was pretty formal and after worship I would climb under his gown, worship I would climb under his gown, worship I would climb under his gown, his robe. his robe. his robe. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> And just sort of hang on to his leg >> And just sort of hang on to his leg >> And just sort of hang on to his leg and and and you know, pretend that I was in this you know, pretend that I was in this you know, pretend that I was in this like invisible cloak. No one could see like invisible cloak. No one could see like invisible cloak. No one could see me. No one knew where I was and me. No one knew where I was and me. No one knew where I was and it just felt like a secret hiding place. it just felt like a secret hiding place. it just felt like a secret hiding place. Uh Uh Uh but it allowed me to be close to him and but it allowed me to be close to him and but it allowed me to be close to him and um um um and but no one else knew that I was and but no one else knew that I was and but no one else knew that I was there in my own pediatric mind, you there in my own pediatric mind, you there in my own pediatric mind, you know. know. know. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Um so that's a that's a memory and I >> Um so that's a that's a memory and I >> Um so that's a that's a memory and I think part of that as I look back on think part of that as I look back on think part of that as I look back on that I just think gosh, he that I just think gosh, he that I just think gosh, he you know, that was a season when it was you know, that was a season when it was you know, that was a season when it was still he was a young pastor at that still he was a young pastor at that still he was a young pastor at that point still. It was a young church and point still. It was a young church and point still. It was a young church and I think he that competitive spirit was a I think he that competitive spirit was a I think he that competitive spirit was a part of him and he wanted to win and be part of him and he wanted to win and be part of him and he wanted to win and be successful, successful, successful, and he tolerated this little, you know, and he tolerated this little, you know, and he tolerated this little, you know, five or six-year-old son of his five or six-year-old son of his five or six-year-old son of his uh getting tangled up in his Geneva uh getting tangled up in his Geneva uh getting tangled up in his Geneva gown, gown, gown, not worried about his reputation or what not worried about his reputation or what not worried about his reputation or what people would think about that.

people would think about that. people would think about that. And um and that just I just find that And um and that just I just find that And um and that just I just find that very like oh, that's that's what dads very like oh, that's that's what dads very like oh, that's that's what dads do, you know. do, you know. do, you know. Um Um Um So, I'm just that's one of my favorite So, I'm just that's one of my favorite So, I'm just that's one of my favorite memories. memories. memories. >> You know what's so telling is when I >> You know what's so telling is when I >> You know what's so telling is when I asked the question, your face lit up. asked the question, your face lit up. asked the question, your face lit up. So, I know there are some people So, I know there are some people So, I know there are some people watching this on YouTube, but that's a watching this on YouTube, but that's a watching this on YouTube, but that's a tell for sure. For all of you who are tell for sure. For all of you who are tell for sure. For all of you who are listening, I asked the question Eric, listening, I asked the question Eric, listening, I asked the question Eric, and you just like brighten up and you and you just like brighten up and you and you just like brighten up and you smile and you're like ah, memories of smile and you're like ah, memories of smile and you're like ah, memories of dad. dad. dad. That's great. What about your mom? Tell That's great. What about your mom? Tell That's great. What about your mom? Tell us about your mom. They They were us about your mom. They They were us about your mom. They They were married for how many years before your married for how many years before your married for how many years before your dad passed and your mom passed shortly dad passed and your mom passed shortly dad passed and your mom passed shortly after that? after that? after that? >> Oh gosh, do you know when? 59? 60? >> Oh gosh, do you know when? 59? 60? >> Oh gosh, do you know when? 59? 60? >> I think 59's right. >> I think 59's right. >> I think 59's right. >> Yeah, long time. >> Yeah, long time. >> Yeah, long time. >> timeline here in front of me and I don't >> timeline here in front of me and I don't >> timeline here in front of me and I don't >> That's okay. It's all Listen, let's call >> That's okay. It's all Listen, let's call >> That's okay. It's all Listen, let's call it six decades of marriage. That's a it six decades of marriage. That's a it six decades of marriage. That's a long relationship. long relationship. long relationship. >> long, yeah. >> long, yeah. >> long, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um >> Um >> Um yeah, my So, yeah, my So, yeah, my So, uh uh uh I've been I've been through a ton of I've been I've been through a ton of I've been I've been through a ton of therapy. therapy. therapy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Good for you. >> Good for you. >> Good for you. >> Good for you.

>> Good for you. >> Good for you. >> Um and and a lot of that had to do, not >> Um and and a lot of that had to do, not >> Um and and a lot of that had to do, not all of it, but a lot of it that had to all of it, but a lot of it that had to all of it, but a lot of it that had to do with uh an overachieving o- uh do with uh an overachieving o- uh do with uh an overachieving o- uh sort of workaholic, I think, dad. Um So, sort of workaholic, I think, dad. Um So, sort of workaholic, I think, dad. Um So, I experienced his absence and came to a I experienced his absence and came to a I experienced his absence and came to a point in my life where I realized I point in my life where I realized I point in my life where I realized I really missed something. really missed something. really missed something. And uh and that's no small part, I And uh and that's no small part, I And uh and that's no small part, I believe, in my psychological motivation believe, in my psychological motivation believe, in my psychological motivation for becoming a pastor and entering into for becoming a pastor and entering into for becoming a pastor and entering into his world and orbit and uh in order to his world and orbit and uh in order to his world and orbit and uh in order to get some attention. get some attention. get some attention. Uh that doesn't discount, I believe, the Uh that doesn't discount, I believe, the Uh that doesn't discount, I believe, the the actual spiritual motivation and the the actual spiritual motivation and the the actual spiritual motivation and the call that God has placed in my life. But call that God has placed in my life. But call that God has placed in my life. But I I think that's a big piece of it, and I I think that's a big piece of it, and I I think that's a big piece of it, and it's not a mistake that it's not a mistake that it's not a mistake that the point at which I expressed interest the point at which I expressed interest the point at which I expressed interest in ministries when our relationship in ministries when our relationship in ministries when our relationship really took off in a significant way, really took off in a significant way, really took off in a significant way, and we became uh quite close. I think and we became uh quite close. I think and we became uh quite close. I think I asked him once, "Who Who's your best I asked him once, "Who Who's your best I asked him once, "Who Who's your best friend?" And he said, "Uh you are." friend?" And he said, "Uh you are." friend?" And he said, "Uh you are." And I thought, And I thought, And I thought, "You ought to be a You should be able to "You ought to be a You should be able to "You ought to be a You should be able to do better than that."

do better than that." do better than that." >> [laughter] >> Um >> Um I think I lost my train of thought. Oh, I think I lost my train of thought. Oh, I think I lost my train of thought. Oh, this is just I think it's by way of my this is just I think it's by way of my this is just I think it's by way of my mother uh really raised the three kids. mother uh really raised the three kids. mother uh really raised the three kids. I'm a middle child. I'm a middle child. I'm a middle child. And so, my memory of like bedtime is And so, my memory of like bedtime is And so, my memory of like bedtime is always Jan always Jan always Jan uh reading a a Bible storybook, you uh reading a a Bible storybook, you uh reading a a Bible storybook, you know, one of those Arch books. Um yeah. know, one of those Arch books. Um yeah. know, one of those Arch books. Um yeah. That was the bedtime routine. She would That was the bedtime routine. She would That was the bedtime routine. She would My brother and I shared bunk beds. Uh My brother and I shared bunk beds. Uh My brother and I shared bunk beds. Uh so, she would read these stories, listen so, she would read these stories, listen so, she would read these stories, listen to our prayers, kiss us good night. to our prayers, kiss us good night. to our prayers, kiss us good night. And uh I just have no memory of my dad And uh I just have no memory of my dad And uh I just have no memory of my dad at that time because he was out at a at that time because he was out at a at that time because he was out at a meeting or visiting people or, you know, meeting or visiting people or, you know, meeting or visiting people or, you know, doing something outside the house. doing something outside the house. doing something outside the house. Uh so, she really just took care of us. Uh so, she really just took care of us. Uh so, she really just took care of us. She raised us and fed us and all the did She raised us and fed us and all the did She raised us and fed us and all the did did all the things did all the things did all the things um in terms of the nurturing. um in terms of the nurturing. um in terms of the nurturing. >> Can we talk a little bit more about the >> Can we talk a little bit more about the >> Can we talk a little bit more about the workaholic side of your dad's story? Cuz workaholic side of your dad's story? Cuz workaholic side of your dad's story? Cuz that's not un It's sad. It's not that's not un It's sad. It's not that's not un It's sad. It's not uncommon in ministry, and that's one of uncommon in ministry, and that's one of uncommon in ministry, and that's one of my great regrets about me as a young dad my great regrets about me as a young dad my great regrets about me as a young dad in my 30s.

in my 30s. in my 30s. You know, when our church was small, I You know, when our church was small, I You know, when our church was small, I was out four nights a week. was out four nights a week. was out four nights a week. And when it got bigger, it was one night And when it got bigger, it was one night And when it got bigger, it was one night a month, but my kids were teenagers by a month, but my kids were teenagers by a month, but my kids were teenagers by then. And it's one of the great then. And it's one of the great then. And it's one of the great sadnesses of my life. sadnesses of my life. sadnesses of my life. Um what Um what Um what with your dad, what what do you think with your dad, what what do you think with your dad, what what do you think drove that drove that drove that that workaholism in him? >> Well, again, Winn might have another >> Well, again, Winn might have another take on this. I think at at some level, take on this. I think at at some level, take on this. I think at at some level, primitively, it's primitively, it's primitively, it's it's repeating a a family pattern. This it's repeating a a family pattern. This it's repeating a a family pattern. This is what his dad did. is what his dad did. is what his dad did. Um his dad had a business. He was the Um his dad had a business. He was the Um his dad had a business. He was the local butcher local butcher local butcher and just worked really hard, and just worked really hard, and just worked really hard, um um um including parts of Sundays. including parts of Sundays. including parts of Sundays. And And And so I think that's the model so I think that's the model so I think that's the model uh partly. It's just a a generational uh partly. It's just a a generational uh partly. It's just a a generational model that he model that he model that he uh probably adopted without a lot of uh probably adopted without a lot of uh probably adopted without a lot of scrutiny. I think he just kind of fell scrutiny. I think he just kind of fell scrutiny. I think he just kind of fell into it.

into it. into it. And my mother did a great job of raising And my mother did a great job of raising And my mother did a great job of raising the kids and attending to all things the kids and attending to all things the kids and attending to all things domestic and domestic and domestic and and didn't complain about it apparently and didn't complain about it apparently and didn't complain about it apparently uh enough at least that that changed any uh enough at least that that changed any uh enough at least that that changed any behavior. behavior. behavior. Um Um Um so it was so it was so it was I mean my sister I mean my sister I mean my sister uh I think I learned this in the uh I think I learned this in the uh I think I learned this in the biography actually. My sister is the one biography actually. My sister is the one biography actually. My sister is the one that counted the number of days. Yeah, that counted the number of days. Yeah, that counted the number of days. Yeah, pretty much. pretty much. pretty much. >> Um yeah. >> Um yeah. >> Um yeah. And I think that did shake him out of it And I think that did shake him out of it And I think that did shake him out of it a little bit. At least it alerted him to a little bit. At least it alerted him to a little bit. At least it alerted him to the fact that he the fact that he the fact that he needed to be more present needed to be more present needed to be more present uh to the family, attentive to the kids. uh to the family, attentive to the kids. uh to the family, attentive to the kids. >> What was the number? Like 27 days in a >> What was the number? Like 27 days in a >> What was the number? Like 27 days in a row or 24 days in a row? Isn't Karen, row or 24 days in a row? Isn't Karen, row or 24 days in a row? Isn't Karen, your sister, said to your dad, "You've your sister, said to your dad, "You've your sister, said to your dad, "You've been gone that long." And it was a bit been gone that long." And it was a bit been gone that long." And it was a bit of a a wake-up call for him. of a a wake-up call for him. of a a wake-up call for him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, she was keeping track. Yeah, she was keeping track. Yeah, she was keeping track. >> Winn, Winn, what's your take on on that? >> Winn, Winn, what's your take on on that? >> Winn, Winn, what's your take on on that? What do what do you see? What do what do you see? What do what do you see? >> Yeah, I mean I think Eugene named it >> Yeah, I mean I think Eugene named it >> Yeah, I mean I think Eugene named it himself that that he was living out his himself that that he was living out his himself that that he was living out his his dad's story in some ways.

his dad's story in some ways. his dad's story in some ways. I think um I think um I think um I think there was some self- I think there was some self- I think there was some self- reflection in his diary at some point reflection in his diary at some point reflection in his diary at some point where he said, "I do think I'm a better where he said, "I do think I'm a better where he said, "I do think I'm a better dad than what I received, dad than what I received, dad than what I received, but I'm not as good a dad as I had hoped but I'm not as good a dad as I had hoped but I'm not as good a dad as I had hoped I'd been." Um I'd been." Um I'd been." Um and I think for me one of the most and I think for me one of the most and I think for me one of the most moving moments in this storyline was moving moments in this storyline was moving moments in this storyline was when Eric had the courage to when Eric had the courage to when Eric had the courage to to write out the letter to his dad um to to write out the letter to his dad um to to write out the letter to his dad um to explain explain explain these wounds and and and this how that these wounds and and and this how that these wounds and and and this how that had played into his story and had played into his story and had played into his story and and how when he shared it you know, and how when he shared it you know, and how when he shared it you know, Eugene's response wasn't defensiveness, Eugene's response wasn't defensiveness, Eugene's response wasn't defensiveness, but was but was but was regret and sorrow and love regret and sorrow and love regret and sorrow and love and how that was a healing balm to Eric and how that was a healing balm to Eric and how that was a healing balm to Eric and and and um that that was a healing thing to me um that that was a healing thing to me um that that was a healing thing to me as a dad to think as a dad to think as a dad to think I mean, I know I've screwed up so many I mean, I know I've screwed up so many I mean, I know I've screwed up so many times times times >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> and there's so many things I would do >> and there's so many things I would do >> and there's so many things I would do different, but I don't think if we different, but I don't think if we different, but I don't think if we genuinely love our children genuinely love our children genuinely love our children um I don't think our um I don't think our um I don't think our our children are looking much more for our children are looking much more for our children are looking much more for us than us than us than a genuine I'm sorry and I wish I'd been a genuine I'm sorry and I wish I'd been a genuine I'm sorry and I wish I'd been better.

better. better. And I think they're so quick to forgive And I think they're so quick to forgive And I think they're so quick to forgive cuz their love is strong, too. And cuz their love is strong, too. And cuz their love is strong, too. And that's just really really hopeful to me. that's just really really hopeful to me. that's just really really hopeful to me. Um but I also think it's no small thing Um but I also think it's no small thing Um but I also think it's no small thing that we we started our conversation that we we started our conversation that we we started our conversation maybe a half hour ago talking about this maybe a half hour ago talking about this maybe a half hour ago talking about this this poison this poison this poison and this this um ambition that was and this this um ambition that was and this this um ambition that was rooted in Eugene rooted in Eugene rooted in Eugene and and his his struggling with this. and and his his struggling with this. and and his his struggling with this. Well, this is the same timeframe where Well, this is the same timeframe where Well, this is the same timeframe where he's he's he's having um he's not being the father having um he's not being the father having um he's not being the father that he actually wanted to be. that he actually wanted to be. that he actually wanted to be. And so I think um that was part of the And so I think um that was part of the And so I think um that was part of the uh unlayering of how profound uh unlayering of how profound uh unlayering of how profound this danger is and how it how it affects this danger is and how it how it affects this danger is and how it how it affects the things we love most dearly. the things we love most dearly. the things we love most dearly. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh Eric, what were what was the letter you Eric, what were what was the letter you Eric, what were what was the letter you wrote to your dad? Do you mind talking wrote to your dad? Do you mind talking wrote to your dad? Do you mind talking about that? >> Um >> Um There's the backstory to it is There's the backstory to it is There's the backstory to it is uh uh uh I about a year after I was ordained, he I about a year after I was ordained, he I about a year after I was ordained, he resigned from the church that he founded resigned from the church that he founded resigned from the church that he founded after serving it for 29 years.

after serving it for 29 years. after serving it for 29 years. And in that resignation letter, he And in that resignation letter, he And in that resignation letter, he described the experience he had on the described the experience he had on the described the experience he had on the night of my ordination night of my ordination night of my ordination when I was kneeling before this when I was kneeling before this when I was kneeling before this congregation congregation congregation um um um and this is my childhood church and and this is my childhood church and and this is my childhood church and that's where I grew up and that's where I grew up and that's where I grew up and and uh and it was a powerful experience and uh and it was a powerful experience and uh and it was a powerful experience for me, you know, to have all these for me, you know, to have all these for me, you know, to have all these elders laying their hands on me. Some of elders laying their hands on me. Some of elders laying their hands on me. Some of them had changed my diapers, you know. them had changed my diapers, you know. them had changed my diapers, you know. And uh And uh And uh and in in in this letter that he writes and in in in this letter that he writes and in in in this letter that he writes to explain what's going on with the to explain what's going on with the to explain what's going on with the congregation, he said, "On the night of congregation, he said, "On the night of congregation, he said, "On the night of which on which my son Eric was ordained, which on which my son Eric was ordained, which on which my son Eric was ordained, I was I was I was offering this ordination prayer offering this ordination prayer offering this ordination prayer and had this sentence simultaneously and had this sentence simultaneously and had this sentence simultaneously that I was not to be here much longer." that I was not to be here much longer." that I was not to be here much longer." And so that's when he was first alerted And so that's when he was first alerted And so that's when he was first alerted to to to that call kind of shifting and being led that call kind of shifting and being led that call kind of shifting and being led out. out. out. But my response when I read the letter But my response when I read the letter But my response when I read the letter was, "What? That was my night."

was, "What? That was my night." was, "What? That was my night." And it's like the Holy Spirit's doing And it's like the Holy Spirit's doing And it's like the Holy Spirit's doing something with you also and and it just something with you also and and it just something with you also and and it just felt like, "Dang it, one more time felt like, "Dang it, one more time felt like, "Dang it, one more time you know, the church got cuts to the you know, the church got cuts to the you know, the church got cuts to the front of the line for my dad's front of the line for my dad's front of the line for my dad's affection." And just I mean it just affection." And just I mean it just affection." And just I mean it just uh raised all kinds of stuff uh raised all kinds of stuff uh raised all kinds of stuff for me. for me. for me. And it just sent me into my journal and And it just sent me into my journal and And it just sent me into my journal and I I spent, I don't know, how many hours I I spent, I don't know, how many hours I I spent, I don't know, how many hours just reflecting and that's where I just reflecting and that's where I just reflecting and that's where I really started to access and really started to access and really started to access and I think it was just the honesty of I think it was just the honesty of I think it was just the honesty of finally uh accessing the the father finally uh accessing the the father finally uh accessing the the father wounds of absenteeism wounds of absenteeism wounds of absenteeism um and just feeling like, "What do I um and just feeling like, "What do I um and just feeling like, "What do I need to do to get your attention? You need to do to get your attention? You need to do to get your attention? You know, what do I what do I need to do for know, what do I what do I need to do for know, what do I what do I need to do for you to just linger over me, not rush on you to just linger over me, not rush on you to just linger over me, not rush on to your next thing?" to your next thing?" to your next thing?" And uh so that that propelled me into And uh so that that propelled me into And uh so that that propelled me into some good therapy. some good therapy. some good therapy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh But, and that resulted in this >> And uh But, and that resulted in this >> And uh But, and that resulted in this that Wynn is referring to. And I So, I that Wynn is referring to. And I So, I that Wynn is referring to. And I So, I called him up and just asked him, "Next called him up and just asked him, "Next called him up and just asked him, "Next time I come to visit, can we spend some time I come to visit, can we spend some time I come to visit, can we spend some time together?

time together? time together? Got some things I want to share with Got some things I want to share with Got some things I want to share with you." We went for a a hike. We climbed you." We went for a a hike. We climbed you." We went for a a hike. We climbed Mount Saint Johns in Montana and found Mount Saint Johns in Montana and found Mount Saint Johns in Montana and found the foundation of an old cabin, the foundation of an old cabin, the foundation of an old cabin, sat on this broken-down foundation, and sat on this broken-down foundation, and sat on this broken-down foundation, and I just read this out loud to him. I just read this out loud to him. I just read this out loud to him. It was maybe three pages of me just It was maybe three pages of me just It was maybe three pages of me just reflecting on memories. And I just just the things that kind of I just just the things that kind of point to you just weren't there for me. point to you just weren't there for me. point to you just weren't there for me. And um And um And um and my my child I mean, you weren't the and my my child I mean, you weren't the and my my child I mean, you weren't the dad I needed. Uh you didn't show up. dad I needed. Uh you didn't show up. dad I needed. Uh you didn't show up. And he I was just terrified of doing And he I was just terrified of doing And he I was just terrified of doing this. I just thought uh this it just this. I just thought uh this it just this. I just thought uh this it just felt really consequential. Like this felt really consequential. Like this felt really consequential. Like this could go really badly. could go really badly. could go really badly. And as Wynn said, he was altogether And as Wynn said, he was altogether And as Wynn said, he was altogether non-defensive. He just listened and he non-defensive. He just listened and he non-defensive. He just listened and he wept. He was altogether contrite. wept. He was altogether contrite. wept. He was altogether contrite. And I remember him saying, "I I didn't And I remember him saying, "I I didn't And I remember him saying, "I I didn't realize to the extent to which I realize to the extent to which I realize to the extent to which I repeated what my dad did.

repeated what my dad did. repeated what my dad did. Uh I'm so sorry." Uh I'm so sorry." Uh I'm so sorry." Um Um Um So, that that really was that a turning So, that that really was that a turning So, that that really was that a turning point in our relationship. Um point in our relationship. Um point in our relationship. Um and it was it was deeply healing. But, and it was it was deeply healing. But, and it was it was deeply healing. But, it could have been otherwise. He could it could have been otherwise. He could it could have been otherwise. He could have just dug in his heels and said, you have just dug in his heels and said, you have just dug in his heels and said, you know, called me an ingrate or you know, know, called me an ingrate or you know, know, called me an ingrate or you know, something like that. something like that. something like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but, that I think is emblematic of >> Um but, that I think is emblematic of >> Um but, that I think is emblematic of his character. his character. his character. Uh just that's Uh just that's Uh just that's um um um he just he made he didn't make a single he just he made he didn't make a single he just he made he didn't make a single excuse. excuse. excuse. And I think that's, you know, part of And I think that's, you know, part of And I think that's, you know, part of what I learned in that is what I learned in that is what I learned in that is you know, that as the Bible talks about you know, that as the Bible talks about you know, that as the Bible talks about the sins of the fathers being passed the sins of the fathers being passed the sins of the fathers being passed down generationally, as long as well as down generationally, as long as well as down generationally, as long as well as the blessings, the blessings, the blessings, I it was just helpful for me to kind of I it was just helpful for me to kind of I it was just helpful for me to kind of pay attention to that. Like I'm an heir pay attention to that. Like I'm an heir pay attention to that. Like I'm an heir to some generational curses. to some generational curses. to some generational curses. Um some of that's addiction, some of Um some of that's addiction, some of Um some of that's addiction, some of that's workaholism. that's workaholism. that's workaholism. Um Um Um but my goodness, there are also these but my goodness, there are also these but my goodness, there are also these generational blessings as well uh that generational blessings as well uh that generational blessings as well uh that that um that um that um that don't diminish. I mean that they're that don't diminish. I mean that they're that don't diminish. I mean that they're they're real.

they're real. they're real. Um Um Um but I also think I mean he he's right in but I also think I mean he he's right in but I also think I mean he he's right in his own self-assessment that he was a his own self-assessment that he was a his own self-assessment that he was a better dad to me and my sibs than his better dad to me and my sibs than his better dad to me and my sibs than his dad was to dad was to dad was to Eugene and his two sibs. Eugene and his two sibs. Eugene and his two sibs. Um and I'd like to think that I was a Um and I'd like to think that I was a Um and I'd like to think that I was a better dad to my three children. better dad to my three children. better dad to my three children. Um and I'm watching my kid my children Um and I'm watching my kid my children Um and I'm watching my kid my children with their kids now. I'm a I'm a with their kids now. I'm a I'm a with their kids now. I'm a I'm a three-time grandfather. three-time grandfather. three-time grandfather. And they're magnificent. Like that seems And they're magnificent. Like that seems And they're magnificent. Like that seems to be getting better. Uh the Peterson to be getting better. Uh the Peterson to be getting better. Uh the Peterson parenting pattern parenting pattern parenting pattern it is healing. it is healing. it is healing. And that's a really gratifying thing to And that's a really gratifying thing to And that's a really gratifying thing to see. see. see. >> What did you change in your parenting >> What did you change in your parenting >> What did you change in your parenting intentionally or unintentionally with intentionally or unintentionally with intentionally or unintentionally with your kids? Because you're doing the same your kids? Because you're doing the same your kids? Because you're doing the same job your dad did. You're pastoring a job your dad did. You're pastoring a job your dad did. You're pastoring a local Presbyterian church. You've got local Presbyterian church. You've got local Presbyterian church. You've got all the pressures to be out 20 out of 30 all the pressures to be out 20 out of 30 all the pressures to be out 20 out of 30 times a month. You've got all the times a month. You've got all the times a month. You've got all the pressures to be on call and interrupt pressures to be on call and interrupt pressures to be on call and interrupt dinner with phone calls, which you write dinner with phone calls, which you write dinner with phone calls, which you write about when in the biography, right? Like about when in the biography, right? Like about when in the biography, right? Like the phone would ring and Eugene would the phone would ring and Eugene would the phone would ring and Eugene would pick it up. Oh, I remember those days pick it up. Oh, I remember those days pick it up. Oh, I remember those days back when we had home phones. What have back when we had home phones. What have back when we had home phones. What have you done in your own parenting um Eric you done in your own parenting um Eric you done in your own parenting um Eric for boundary setting and for boundary setting and for boundary setting and plotting a new generational course?

>> Well, I just made a decision I think >> Well, I just made a decision I think pretty early on uh that my kids would pretty early on uh that my kids would pretty early on uh that my kids would never feel like they never feel like they never feel like they uh came in second. uh came in second. uh came in second. Uh when they call, I answer the phone. Uh when they call, I answer the phone. Uh when they call, I answer the phone. When they ask for help, I'm there. When they ask for help, I'm there. When they ask for help, I'm there. And I'll cancel pretty much anything in And I'll cancel pretty much anything in And I'll cancel pretty much anything in order to be available to them. order to be available to them. order to be available to them. So, I'm sure I've I've done that So, I'm sure I've I've done that So, I'm sure I've I've done that imperfectly, but I think they grew up imperfectly, but I think they grew up imperfectly, but I think they grew up knowing that I was all about them. knowing that I was all about them. knowing that I was all about them. And And And um um um and the church wasn't more important and the church wasn't more important and the church wasn't more important than them. than them. than them. And I think I got a little better at And I think I got a little better at And I think I got a little better at that as I got older and more confident. that as I got older and more confident. that as I got older and more confident. Um you know, I was running scared for a Um you know, I was running scared for a Um you know, I was running scared for a while. I didn't know what I was doing as while. I didn't know what I was doing as while. I didn't know what I was doing as a young pastor. a young pastor. a young pastor. But I'm actually looking um toward But I'm actually looking um toward But I'm actually looking um toward retirement at this point. retirement at this point. retirement at this point. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so um I I kind of feel like I don't >> And so um I I kind of feel like I don't >> And so um I I kind of feel like I don't have anything more to prove. And I if if have anything more to prove. And I if if have anything more to prove. And I if if there's a legacy in my life, I want it there's a legacy in my life, I want it there's a legacy in my life, I want it to be about to be about to be about um like my kids and my grandkids and my um like my kids and my grandkids and my um like my kids and my grandkids and my marriage. I I want it to be about the marriage. I I want it to be about the marriage. I I want it to be about the relationships. relationships. relationships. Um Um Um I just don't want to be another I just don't want to be another I just don't want to be another statistic in terms of statistic in terms of statistic in terms of uh you know, pastor kids who want uh you know, pastor kids who want uh you know, pastor kids who want nothing to do with their nothing to do with their nothing to do with their parents or the God or the church.

parents or the God or the church. parents or the God or the church. So, I think it was just it was in So, I think it was just it was in So, I think it was just it was in reaction. It was it was mostly a reaction. It was it was mostly a reaction. It was it was mostly a conscious reaction to my own experience. conscious reaction to my own experience. conscious reaction to my own experience. And like I And like I And like I I wanted to be a different dad. Um I wanted to be a different dad. Um I wanted to be a different dad. Um Not that I Not that I Not that I you know, I love my kids more than my you know, I love my kids more than my you know, I love my kids more than my dad did. Just that I'm more dad did. Just that I'm more dad did. Just that I'm more just think I'm more just think I'm more just think I'm more um more attentive and um more attentive and um more attentive and I used that word linger earlier. I just I used that word linger earlier. I just I used that word linger earlier. I just I feel like I I I never want them to I feel like I I I never want them to I feel like I I I never want them to feel rushed around me. I like I just feel rushed around me. I like I just feel rushed around me. I like I just I'm just relishing the time I get to I'm just relishing the time I get to I'm just relishing the time I get to spend with you. spend with you. spend with you. >> When I I >> When I I >> When I I you know, this isn't defending you know, this isn't defending you know, this isn't defending workaholism by any stretch, but it does workaholism by any stretch, but it does workaholism by any stretch, but it does help explain it. One of the things that help explain it. One of the things that help explain it. One of the things that you talk about in the biography and it's you talk about in the biography and it's you talk about in the biography and it's shown up in other places in shown up in other places in shown up in other places in Eugene's work is if I'm not mistaken, he Eugene's work is if I'm not mistaken, he Eugene's work is if I'm not mistaken, he never intended to plant a church. His never intended to plant a church. His never intended to plant a church. His denomination asked him to. It was kind denomination asked him to. It was kind denomination asked him to. It was kind of of of foisted on him. He didn't know how to do foisted on him. He didn't know how to do foisted on him. He didn't know how to do it. And I remember that as a young it. And I remember that as a young it. And I remember that as a young pastor, there are just sort of pastor, there are just sort of pastor, there are just sort of expectations unspoken that get thrust expectations unspoken that get thrust expectations unspoken that get thrust upon you. You will do all the upon you. You will do all the upon you. You will do all the visitation, you will be at all the visitation, you will be at all the visitation, you will be at all the meetings, you will conduct the Bible meetings, you will conduct the Bible meetings, you will conduct the Bible study, you will preach at least once a study, you will preach at least once a study, you will preach at least once a week, maybe more if you're really week, maybe more if you're really week, maybe more if you're really faithful and we do a second service, faithful and we do a second service, faithful and we do a second service, etc. etc. And I remember sort of etc. etc. And I remember sort of etc. etc. And I remember sort of accepting that invisible script for a accepting that invisible script for a accepting that invisible script for a number of years until I rejected it and number of years until I rejected it and number of years until I rejected it and wrote a new one. Was that a factor in wrote a new one. Was that a factor in wrote a new one. Was that a factor in Eugene's ministry? Like this is the Eugene's ministry? Like this is the Eugene's ministry? Like this is the template of how to do ministry and he template of how to do ministry and he template of how to do ministry and he just kind of embraced it cuz he didn't

just kind of embraced it cuz he didn't just kind of embraced it cuz he didn't have an alternative or do you have any have an alternative or do you have any have an alternative or do you have any thoughts on that, Wynn? thoughts on that, Wynn? thoughts on that, Wynn? >> I don't think I have any original >> I don't think I have any original >> I don't think I have any original thoughts, but I think what you laid out thoughts, but I think what you laid out thoughts, but I think what you laid out is true. I think he was working within a is true. I think he was working within a is true. I think he was working within a system that system that system that that he was welcomed into and I mean, he that he was welcomed into and I mean, he that he was welcomed into and I mean, he was always a team player. Um he he did was always a team player. Um he he did was always a team player. Um he he did want to want to want to do what was expected of him and do good do what was expected of him and do good do what was expected of him and do good job and job and job and um so you give his personality and the um so you give his personality and the um so you give his personality and the way he'd been brought up and then you way he'd been brought up and then you way he'd been brought up and then you throw that in and throw that in and throw that in and this is what you got. this is what you got. this is what you got. >> Any thought, Eric, on the pressures of >> Any thought, Eric, on the pressures of >> Any thought, Eric, on the pressures of the system? Because there is a system the system? Because there is a system the system? Because there is a system and there are invisible scripts that, and there are invisible scripts that, and there are invisible scripts that, you know, depending on your you know, depending on your you know, depending on your denomination, your background, like denomination, your background, like denomination, your background, like this you're a pastor, this's basically this you're a pastor, this's basically this you're a pastor, this's basically what you're going to do. I mean, to some extent, um although I I mean, to some extent, um although I feel sort of gratefully and blessedly feel sort of gratefully and blessedly feel sort of gratefully and blessedly uh free of a lot of that. Um uh free of a lot of that. Um uh free of a lot of that. Um partly that's the gift of a new church partly that's the gift of a new church partly that's the gift of a new church development. So, I also organized the development. So, I also organized the development. So, I also organized the church that I now serve.

church that I now serve. church that I now serve. And so, when you're the founding And so, when you're the founding And so, when you're the founding influence, you kind of get to set the influence, you kind of get to set the influence, you kind of get to set the expectations. expectations. expectations. Um and when I came to start this church, Um and when I came to start this church, Um and when I came to start this church, I had been ordained for 7 years already. I had been ordained for 7 years already. I had been ordained for 7 years already. And so, I had a pretty good sense of my And so, I had a pretty good sense of my And so, I had a pretty good sense of my own, own, own, you know, the the contours of my you know, the the contours of my you know, the the contours of my vocation, what was important, um kind of vocation, what was important, um kind of vocation, what was important, um kind of had my voice as a preacher. had my voice as a preacher. had my voice as a preacher. And so, I think I was [clears throat] And so, I think I was [clears throat] And so, I think I was [clears throat] less susceptible to less susceptible to less susceptible to um um um persuasive voices that would have sort persuasive voices that would have sort persuasive voices that would have sort of called me to do something different of called me to do something different of called me to do something different that wasn't true to that wasn't true to that wasn't true to uh my own self and and how God was uh my own self and and how God was uh my own self and and how God was uh going to use [clears throat] me. uh going to use [clears throat] me. uh going to use [clears throat] me. Um so, you know, Um so, you know, Um so, you know, here I am 26 years later and I'm the here I am 26 years later and I'm the here I am 26 years later and I'm the only pastor some of these folks have only pastor some of these folks have only pastor some of these folks have known and known and known and and that's that might be a little and that's that might be a little and that's that might be a little frightening uh in terms of my successor, frightening uh in terms of my successor, frightening uh in terms of my successor, like uh like uh like uh >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> because she >> because she >> because she uh she's been named and uh she's been named and uh she's been named and and that's probably what part of what and that's probably what part of what and that's probably what part of what we're talking about. Like, there there we're talking about. Like, there there we're talking about. Like, there there are other ways to do this.

are other ways to do this. are other ways to do this. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> and >> and >> and uh so, we're going to overlap for a uh so, we're going to overlap for a uh so, we're going to overlap for a couple of years just to try to help ease couple of years just to try to help ease couple of years just to try to help ease that that that transition. But, I think I've just been transition. But, I think I've just been transition. But, I think I've just been mostly free from those pressures and mostly free from those pressures and mostly free from those pressures and expectations. Um Yeah, and that's and I know that that's Yeah, and that's and I know that that's unusual. I feel like that's that's unusual. I feel like that's that's unusual. I feel like that's that's somewhat unique. somewhat unique. somewhat unique. Uh so, I'm grateful for that. Uh so, I'm grateful for that. Uh so, I'm grateful for that. >> Well, that's a really good place to be >> Well, that's a really good place to be >> Well, that's a really good place to be and experience is a a great teacher as and experience is a a great teacher as and experience is a a great teacher as well. And my reset came firmly when we well. And my reset came firmly when we well. And my reset came firmly when we started uh when we amalgamated the three started uh when we amalgamated the three started uh when we amalgamated the three churches and we built something new churches and we built something new churches and we built something new that I felt like I could reset the die. that I felt like I could reset the die. that I felt like I could reset the die. Um I want to talk about and and this Um I want to talk about and and this Um I want to talk about and and this this is a bit of a hypothetical, but one this is a bit of a hypothetical, but one this is a bit of a hypothetical, but one thing that's clear in the writing is thing that's clear in the writing is thing that's clear in the writing is that Eugene felt an ambivalence about that Eugene felt an ambivalence about that Eugene felt an ambivalence about pastoring. pastoring. pastoring. There were parts of it he absolutely There were parts of it he absolutely There were parts of it he absolutely loved. He loved the sacraments. He loved. He loved the sacraments. He loved. He loved the sacraments. He seemed to really enjoy preaching. seemed to really enjoy preaching. seemed to really enjoy preaching. And yet, not every elder was deeply And yet, not every elder was deeply And yet, not every elder was deeply enamored of him. Uh the congregation enamored of him. Uh the congregation enamored of him. Uh the congregation sometimes thought he wrote too much or sometimes thought he wrote too much or sometimes thought he wrote too much or was away too much.

was away too much. was away too much. Um if you were uh a paritioner and Um if you were uh a paritioner and Um if you were uh a paritioner and attendee at Christ Our King in the 70s attendee at Christ Our King in the 70s attendee at Christ Our King in the 70s or 80s when Eugene was there, what would or 80s when Eugene was there, what would or 80s when Eugene was there, what would your experience of him as a local pastor your experience of him as a local pastor your experience of him as a local pastor have been like? Cuz most of us have only have been like? Cuz most of us have only have been like? Cuz most of us have only accessed him through his books. accessed him through his books. accessed him through his books. >> Well, I was a paritioner in the 70s and >> Well, I was a paritioner in the 70s and >> Well, I was a paritioner in the 70s and 80s. 80s. 80s. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And and the 60s. >> And and the 60s. >> And and the 60s. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Um, I mean, he was my pastor for the >> Um, I mean, he was my pastor for the >> Um, I mean, he was my pastor for the first 19 years of my life. first 19 years of my life. first 19 years of my life. And I I think what I, you know, And I I think what I, you know, And I I think what I, you know, witnessed both in the public witnessed both in the public witnessed both in the public and the private. I mean, I, you know, and the private. I mean, I, you know, and the private. I mean, I, you know, when you live with someone, you you kind when you live with someone, you you kind when you live with someone, you you kind of of of you hear some things. And you hear some things. And you hear some things. And oh my goodness, I just I never I never oh my goodness, I just I never I never oh my goodness, I just I never I never once heard him speak disparagingly about once heard him speak disparagingly about once heard him speak disparagingly about a paritioner. a paritioner. a paritioner. Um, Um, Um, he just honored them. Uh, he just honored them. Uh, he just honored them. Uh, I I know he got frustrated at times and I I know he got frustrated at times and I I know he got frustrated at times and there were difficult people, but there were difficult people, but there were difficult people, but he he he he never spoke in a belittling way um, he never spoke in a belittling way um, he never spoke in a belittling way um, that I overheard.

that I overheard. that I overheard. So, I I saw him and experienced him as a So, I I saw him and experienced him as a So, I I saw him and experienced him as a pastor who was steady, faithful, pastor who was steady, faithful, pastor who was steady, faithful, showed up, showed up, showed up, you know, week after week, day after you know, week after week, day after you know, week after week, day after day. day. day. Um, he was a he was a faithful expositor Um, he was a he was a faithful expositor Um, he was a he was a faithful expositor of the scriptures. He was a good of the scriptures. He was a good of the scriptures. He was a good preacher, not not a phenomenal preacher, preacher, not not a phenomenal preacher, preacher, not not a phenomenal preacher, but he was good and solid. I I found it but he was good and solid. I I found it but he was good and solid. I I found it really meaningful. Learned a lot through really meaningful. Learned a lot through really meaningful. Learned a lot through him. him. him. He was a kind of an old-fashioned pastor He was a kind of an old-fashioned pastor He was a kind of an old-fashioned pastor in the sense that he was very attentive in the sense that he was very attentive in the sense that he was very attentive to pastoral care issues. He visited, uh, to pastoral care issues. He visited, uh, to pastoral care issues. He visited, uh, he was in the hospitals a lot, he was in the hospitals a lot, he was in the hospitals a lot, homes, nursing homes. homes, nursing homes. homes, nursing homes. Um, did spiritual direction with people Um, did spiritual direction with people Um, did spiritual direction with people in the study. in the study. in the study. Um, Um, Um, and and and and had this company of pastors that and had this company of pastors that and had this company of pastors that uh, you know, attended uh, mostly uh, you know, attended uh, mostly uh, you know, attended uh, mostly lectionary texts every Tuesday for the lectionary texts every Tuesday for the lectionary texts every Tuesday for the first half of the day. first half of the day. first half of the day. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> And, um, so those were the the rhythms. >> And, um, so those were the the rhythms. >> And, um, so those were the the rhythms. Um, and somehow part of that rhythm Um, and somehow part of that rhythm Um, and somehow part of that rhythm in my mind is that he walked from our in my mind is that he walked from our in my mind is that he walked from our house to the church back and forth.

house to the church back and forth. house to the church back and forth. Um, only drove when he had to be in town Um, only drove when he had to be in town Um, only drove when he had to be in town to, you know, for a meeting or to visit to, you know, for a meeting or to visit to, you know, for a meeting or to visit someone. someone. someone. Otherwise, he was just walking that was Otherwise, he was just walking that was Otherwise, he was just walking that was just, I think it was a half a mile just, I think it was a half a mile just, I think it was a half a mile pilgrimage each way. pilgrimage each way. pilgrimage each way. And that just seemed to be part of his And that just seemed to be part of his And that just seemed to be part of his rhythm. And I think that became rhythm. And I think that became rhythm. And I think that became sort of emblematic of his sort of emblematic of his sort of emblematic of his sort of that pedestrian, sort of that pedestrian, sort of that pedestrian, pastoral pace. pastoral pace. pastoral pace. Um, it was just, it was slow, leisurely, Um, it was just, it was slow, leisurely, Um, it was just, it was slow, leisurely, unhurried. unhurried. unhurried. Um, Um, Um, >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> and and contemplative. You know, he, I'm >> and and contemplative. You know, he, I'm >> and and contemplative. You know, he, I'm sure he was praying as he was walking. sure he was praying as he was walking. sure he was praying as he was walking. And the the times I got to walk with And the the times I got to walk with And the the times I got to walk with him, if I just, you know, lingered long him, if I just, you know, lingered long him, if I just, you know, lingered long enough after worship, I would walk home enough after worship, I would walk home enough after worship, I would walk home with him and with him and with him and uh, uh, uh, that that always felt like a gift that that that always felt like a gift that that that always felt like a gift that he he he invited me in or allowed me to be, uh, invited me in or allowed me to be, uh, invited me in or allowed me to be, uh, in on his solitude. in on his solitude. in on his solitude. >> And so, that part is warmly reassuring. >> And so, that part is warmly reassuring. >> And so, that part is warmly reassuring. I'm like, okay, that's what I imagined I'm like, okay, that's what I imagined I'm like, okay, that's what I imagined it would be like to be part of his it would be like to be part of his it would be like to be part of his church. And yet, when church. And yet, when church. And yet, when the journals the journals the journals and and the private writings you had and and the private writings you had and and the private writings you had access to seem to portray more of a access to seem to portray more of a access to seem to portray more of a struggle that Eugene felt internally struggle that Eugene felt internally struggle that Eugene felt internally with local with local with local pastoral ministry. What what did you see pastoral ministry. What what did you see pastoral ministry. What what did you see in his internal struggle with it?

in his internal struggle with it? in his internal struggle with it? >> Yeah, I was so glad that I found the >> Yeah, I was so glad that I found the >> Yeah, I was so glad that I found the journals. Um, because I feel like they journals. Um, because I feel like they journals. Um, because I feel like they gave gave gave uh, an an insight to Eugene uh, an an insight to Eugene uh, an an insight to Eugene that um, that I'm not even sure, like a decade or that I'm not even sure, like a decade or two later he would have quite two later he would have quite two later he would have quite >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because what he allowed himself in those >> Because what he allowed himself in those >> Because what he allowed himself in those journals, cuz I think he I think you're journals, cuz I think he I think you're journals, cuz I think he I think you're exactly I think what you heard from Eric exactly I think what you heard from Eric exactly I think what you heard from Eric is what I heard from parishioners when I is what I heard from parishioners when I is what I heard from parishioners when I interviewed them. interviewed them. interviewed them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They perceived him as >> They perceived him as >> They perceived him as uh immensely encouraging uh immensely encouraging uh immensely encouraging deeply present um deeply present um deeply present um and and and but all of us have to have a place where but all of us have to have a place where but all of us have to have a place where we can process we can process we can process >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the things that aren't that, right? And >> the things that aren't that, right? And >> the things that aren't that, right? And I think it was actually a very mature I think it was actually a very mature I think it was actually a very mature and um an act of of spiritual discipline and um an act of of spiritual discipline and um an act of of spiritual discipline and love for the people and love for the people and love for the people that he did process it with God. I'm that he did process it with God. I'm that he did process it with God. I'm assuming he also processed it with his assuming he also processed it with his assuming he also processed it with his spiritual director, but he processed it spiritual director, but he processed it spiritual director, but he processed it with God in his journals.

with God in his journals. with God in his journals. Um Um Um but it was act it was it was an act of but it was act it was it was an act of but it was act it was it was an act of honoring that he uh honoring that he uh honoring that he uh wasn't going to burden other people with wasn't going to burden other people with wasn't going to burden other people with that. And it wasn't dishonest. I mean, I that. And it wasn't dishonest. I mean, I that. And it wasn't dishonest. I mean, I don't think you ever got the sense that, don't think you ever got the sense that, don't think you ever got the sense that, you know, he thought he everything was you know, he thought he everything was you know, he thought he everything was was ice cream and cherries. But was ice cream and cherries. But was ice cream and cherries. But but his his deeper conviction was what but his his deeper conviction was what but his his deeper conviction was what God was doing with the congregation. God was doing with the congregation. God was doing with the congregation. So even amid a um a So even amid a um a So even amid a um a a personality conflict or, you know, a personality conflict or, you know, a personality conflict or, you know, uh some trouble that he might have with uh some trouble that he might have with uh some trouble that he might have with someone on the session or something someone on the session or something someone on the session or something was this deep abiding conviction that was this deep abiding conviction that was this deep abiding conviction that God was up to something. God was up to something. God was up to something. And that And that And that and that while his human emotions were and that while his human emotions were and that while his human emotions were part of the story, something he needed part of the story, something he needed part of the story, something he needed to work through, those things left to work through, those things left to work through, those things left unchecked could actually get in the way unchecked could actually get in the way unchecked could actually get in the way of what God was up to. of what God was up to. of what God was up to. One of the things I One of the things I One of the things I I heard in various ways um from several I heard in various ways um from several I heard in various ways um from several parishioners that I and I would say that parishioners that I and I would say that parishioners that I and I would say that was probably a place where I had a was probably a place where I had a was probably a place where I had a little fear and trepidation.

little fear and trepidation. little fear and trepidation. Because Because Because um I was committed to telling an honest um I was committed to telling an honest um I was committed to telling an honest story. I mean, I think that's required story. I mean, I think that's required story. I mean, I think that's required of me as a biographer, and it would be of me as a biographer, and it would be of me as a biographer, and it would be it would be um it wouldn't be uh in it would be um it wouldn't be uh in it would be um it wouldn't be uh in honoring of Eugene's own way honoring of Eugene's own way honoring of Eugene's own way and posture to not be truthful. and posture to not be truthful. and posture to not be truthful. Um Um Um So, but I just wondered like what am I So, but I just wondered like what am I So, but I just wondered like what am I going to discover when I start going going to discover when I start going going to discover when I start going back decades and talking with back decades and talking with back decades and talking with parishioners, uh what what am I going to parishioners, uh what what am I going to parishioners, uh what what am I going to hear? hear? hear? And again, I don't think anybody thought And again, I don't think anybody thought And again, I don't think anybody thought Eugene was perfect, but what I heard Eugene was perfect, but what I heard Eugene was perfect, but what I heard over and again was over and again was over and again was I can't necessarily point to a moment, I can't necessarily point to a moment, I can't necessarily point to a moment, but over the years I started to realize but over the years I started to realize but over the years I started to realize that I was seeing myself the way God saw that I was seeing myself the way God saw that I was seeing myself the way God saw me. me. me. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Or >> Or >> Or I was all the sudden understanding my I was all the sudden understanding my I was all the sudden understanding my life as part of God's story. life as part of God's story. life as part of God's story. My life my my story in my life was My life my my story in my life was My life my my story in my life was small, and then years later small, and then years later small, and then years later after after being after after being after after being um um um in Eugene's circle, hearing him tell the in Eugene's circle, hearing him tell the in Eugene's circle, hearing him tell the stories of scripture, hearing him pray, stories of scripture, hearing him pray, stories of scripture, hearing him pray, hearing him teach me how to pray, having hearing him teach me how to pray, having hearing him teach me how to pray, having conversations, going on walks, conversations, going on walks, conversations, going on walks, I recognized later that I was in a much I recognized later that I was in a much I recognized later that I was in a much larger story, and it was God's. And And larger story, and it was God's. And And larger story, and it was God's. And And so, I think so, I think so, I think it was that vision that was constantly it was that vision that was constantly it was that vision that was constantly moving Eugene. Um moving Eugene. Um moving Eugene. Um yes, yes, yes, there were things that were really there were things that were really there were things that were really difficult, and reading his his journals difficult, and reading his his journals difficult, and reading his his journals you get more of the flavor that you you get more of the flavor that you you get more of the flavor that you wouldn't have gotten from a Sunday

wouldn't have gotten from a Sunday wouldn't have gotten from a Sunday morning, morning, morning, because it wasn't about Eugene. because it wasn't about Eugene. because it wasn't about Eugene. He was absolutely committed to the fact He was absolutely committed to the fact He was absolutely committed to the fact that that what he was doing was not that that what he was doing was not that that what he was doing was not about him. about him. about him. And so, while he needed to be honest And so, while he needed to be honest And so, while he needed to be honest with himself, what was more important with himself, what was more important with himself, what was more important was to point people to God. was to point people to God. was to point people to God. >> So, I love that framework because, you >> So, I love that framework because, you >> So, I love that framework because, you know, I always think it's helpful to know, I always think it's helpful to know, I always think it's helpful to lead publicly and process privately, lead publicly and process privately, lead publicly and process privately, right? But I do remember at several right? But I do remember at several right? But I do remember at several points in the biography, and maybe from points in the biography, and maybe from points in the biography, and maybe from some of his own writings as well, that some of his own writings as well, that some of his own writings as well, that he was really, and maybe this This in he was really, and maybe this This in he was really, and maybe this This in the last decade of his time at Christ the last decade of his time at Christ the last decade of his time at Christ Our King debating with how much longer Our King debating with how much longer Our King debating with how much longer can I do this? How much more energy do I can I do this? How much more energy do I can I do this? How much more energy do I have in my tank? have in my tank? have in my tank? I'm tired of the elder meetings. I'm I'm tired of the elder meetings. I'm I'm tired of the elder meetings. I'm tired of of this. Like all the normal tired of of this. Like all the normal tired of of this. Like all the normal stuff that a leader would go through. To stuff that a leader would go through. To stuff that a leader would go through. To what extent was that a factor in his what extent was that a factor in his what extent was that a factor in his leadership win? And feel free to fill it in with other And feel free to fill it in with other >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you know, things he struggled with. >> you know, things he struggled with. >> you know, things he struggled with. >> Right. I mean >> Right. I mean >> Right. I mean I mean he came back he so he went on I mean he came back he so he went on I mean he came back he so he went on that sabbatical that your sabbatical that sabbatical that your sabbatical that sabbatical that your sabbatical which he he'd never had a sabbatical which he he'd never had a sabbatical which he he'd never had a sabbatical before.

before. before. Um so we had a year and he came back and Um so we had a year and he came back and Um so we had a year and he came back and that that first 6 to 9 months he was that that first 6 to 9 months he was that that first 6 to 9 months he was riding high. riding high. riding high. I mean he I remember you know, he said I mean he I remember you know, he said I mean he I remember you know, he said something like I I could have gone something like I I could have gone something like I I could have gone forever, you know, but that lasted about forever, you know, but that lasted about forever, you know, but that lasted about 18 months, 18 months, 18 months, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> you know, and um >> you know, and um >> you know, and um I I think what one thing that's actually I I think what one thing that's actually I I think what one thing that's actually quite beautiful about this is one of the quite beautiful about this is one of the quite beautiful about this is one of the things things things a lot of pastors remember about Eugene a lot of pastors remember about Eugene a lot of pastors remember about Eugene uh is his his encouragement to stay as uh is his his encouragement to stay as uh is his his encouragement to stay as long as you possibly can to not long as you possibly can to not long as you possibly can to not constantly be be moving around. constantly be be moving around. constantly be be moving around. But again, for Eugene that was tied to But again, for Eugene that was tied to But again, for Eugene that was tied to ambition. It was leaving for reasons of ambition. It was leaving for reasons of ambition. It was leaving for reasons of ambition. ambition. ambition. But one of the reasons he thought was a But one of the reasons he thought was a But one of the reasons he thought was a good reason to leave a church was if you good reason to leave a church was if you good reason to leave a church was if you just just just began to discern that you didn't have began to discern that you didn't have began to discern that you didn't have the energy or the capacity the energy or the capacity the energy or the capacity to guide the church in the next season to guide the church in the next season to guide the church in the next season of whatever God you sense God was doing of whatever God you sense God was doing of whatever God you sense God was doing with the church. with the church. with the church. But the the real difference there again But the the real difference there again But the the real difference there again is God. is God. is God. Um Um Um before you know, if I'm sort of living before you know, if I'm sort of living before you know, if I'm sort of living out the idea that is the next larger out the idea that is the next larger out the idea that is the next larger church that asked me to come be their church that asked me to come be their church that asked me to come be their pastor is obviously what I should do.

pastor is obviously what I should do. pastor is obviously what I should do. That's not really about God. That's That's not really about God. That's That's not really about God. That's about me. about me. about me. Um and so I think with Eugene it was he Um and so I think with Eugene it was he Um and so I think with Eugene it was he was just constantly coming back to this was just constantly coming back to this was just constantly coming back to this question of question of question of what is God doing? And it wasn't like what is God doing? And it wasn't like what is God doing? And it wasn't like what is God doing broadly in some what is God doing broadly in some what is God doing broadly in some nebulous way with this church. It was a nebulous way with this church. It was a nebulous way with this church. It was a specific people, specific stories. What specific people, specific stories. What specific people, specific stories. What is God up to with them and what is my is God up to with them and what is my is God up to with them and what is my role in that? And so that was a much role in that? And so that was a much role in that? And so that was a much more um profound guiding light for him. more um profound guiding light for him. more um profound guiding light for him. >> I think there was also, you know, that >> I think there was also, you know, that >> I think there was also, you know, that that this I think represents a season that this I think represents a season that this I think represents a season where the evolution of his vocation is where the evolution of his vocation is where the evolution of his vocation is is shifting. Yeah. And during that is shifting. Yeah. And during that is shifting. Yeah. And during that year-long sabbatical year-long sabbatical year-long sabbatical uh he he he wrote three books. uh he he he wrote three books. uh he he he wrote three books. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and that became increasingly >> And and that became increasingly >> And and that became increasingly um um um part of his vocational identity. I'm a part of his vocational identity. I'm a part of his vocational identity. I'm a writer, pastor writer, writer pastor. writer, pastor writer, writer pastor. writer, pastor writer, writer pastor. And so I think part of what's going on And so I think part of what's going on And so I think part of what's going on during this season, the the latter years during this season, the the latter years during this season, the the latter years of Christ Our King is of Christ Our King is of Christ Our King is he's sensing or discerning that he's sensing or discerning that he's sensing or discerning that um that writer um that writer um that writer um sort of pastor, I guess, is the um sort of pastor, I guess, is the um sort of pastor, I guess, is the adjective for writer. He's a pastor adjective for writer. He's a pastor adjective for writer. He's a pastor writer rather than a a writing pastor.

writer rather than a a writing pastor. writer rather than a a writing pastor. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. Um I'd love to talk about cuz we've Um I'd love to talk about cuz we've Um I'd love to talk about cuz we've hinted at this already a little bit, but hinted at this already a little bit, but hinted at this already a little bit, but his relationship with fame. So one of his relationship with fame. So one of his relationship with fame. So one of the people who did seek him out was Bono the people who did seek him out was Bono the people who did seek him out was Bono from U2. from U2. from U2. And uh the video shot at the house, the And uh the video shot at the house, the And uh the video shot at the house, the cottage, whatever you want to call it, cottage, whatever you want to call it, cottage, whatever you want to call it, at uh Flathead Lake in Montana was just at uh Flathead Lake in Montana was just at uh Flathead Lake in Montana was just I watched it again yesterday. I watched I watched it again yesterday. I watched I watched it again yesterday. I watched it when it first came out, watched it it when it first came out, watched it it when it first came out, watched it again prepping. again prepping. again prepping. Just so emotional. See Bono and your Just so emotional. See Bono and your Just so emotional. See Bono and your parents and your mom making cookies, parents and your mom making cookies, parents and your mom making cookies, Eric. And then greeting him and just Eric. And then greeting him and just Eric. And then greeting him and just sitting down and the unhurried pace and sitting down and the unhurried pace and sitting down and the unhurried pace and the discussion of the Psalms. I think the discussion of the Psalms. I think the discussion of the Psalms. I think Fuller put that on. And then some other Fuller put that on. And then some other Fuller put that on. And then some other videos shot up at the lake. videos shot up at the lake. videos shot up at the lake. Just really Just really Just really was powerful. He seemed very unaffected was powerful. He seemed very unaffected was powerful. He seemed very unaffected by Bono, didn't even know who he was. by Bono, didn't even know who he was. by Bono, didn't even know who he was. Can you take us through that story for Can you take us through that story for Can you take us through that story for people who may who may not know the people who may who may not know the people who may who may not know the backstory behind Bono and your dad and backstory behind Bono and your dad and backstory behind Bono and your dad and your mom and uh what the significance of your mom and uh what the significance of your mom and uh what the significance of that was to your dad and eventually to that was to your dad and eventually to that was to your dad and eventually to Bono?

>> Well, I [clears throat] don't I'm not >> Well, I [clears throat] don't I'm not sure I I know. sure I I know. sure I I know. There was There was There was you know, there were some people that you know, there were some people that you know, there were some people that kind of gave kind of gave kind of gave um um um some words of appreciation some words of appreciation some words of appreciation when the message was completed. when the message was completed. when the message was completed. Um Um Um said some nice words of, you know, thank said some nice words of, you know, thank said some nice words of, you know, thank you and appreciation. And Bono was one you and appreciation. And Bono was one you and appreciation. And Bono was one of those. He sent a kind of a video of those. He sent a kind of a video of those. He sent a kind of a video message on behalf of the band. message on behalf of the band. message on behalf of the band. Um and Um and Um and kind of explained about how kind of explained about how kind of explained about how how much he appreciated that the how much he appreciated that the how much he appreciated that the translation. translation. translation. And that and U2 And that and U2 And that and U2 used it. That is they used it. That is they used it. That is they they would often read a a psalm they would often read a a psalm they would often read a a psalm backstage prior to going out and backstage prior to going out and backstage prior to going out and performing in concert. performing in concert. performing in concert. Um Um Um and so and so and so I think there was when Mike Mike I think there was when Mike Mike I think there was when Mike Mike remember the details better. I think my remember the details better. I think my remember the details better. I think my folks went to a concert. They were folks went to a concert. They were folks went to a concert. They were invited and and spent So, they went to a invited and and spent So, they went to a invited and and spent So, they went to a concert and concert and concert and um and then spent several hours together um and then spent several hours together um and then spent several hours together just in conversation. I think that was just in conversation. I think that was just in conversation. I think that was kind of their initial kind of their initial kind of their initial time to meet and get acquainted.

time to meet and get acquainted. time to meet and get acquainted. And that's what preceded this And that's what preceded this And that's what preceded this conversation at the Lake Placid that conversation at the Lake Placid that conversation at the Lake Placid that David Taylor David Taylor David Taylor curated around the Psalms. curated around the Psalms. curated around the Psalms. Um Um Um I think it was a bigger deal for my I think it was a bigger deal for my I think it was a bigger deal for my mother. I don't think So, Bono kissed mother. I don't think So, Bono kissed mother. I don't think So, Bono kissed her on the cheek and I don't think she her on the cheek and I don't think she her on the cheek and I don't think she washed her face for like 2 weeks. washed her face for like 2 weeks. washed her face for like 2 weeks. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> She knew. She knew who he was. >> She knew. She knew who he was. >> She knew. She knew who he was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Um Um but I I think the the takeaway for me but I I think the the takeaway for me but I I think the the takeaway for me uh uh uh I mean, it really wasn't all that big a I mean, it really wasn't all that big a I mean, it really wasn't all that big a deal to Eugene. deal to Eugene. deal to Eugene. It was a big deal to his students and It was a big deal to his students and It was a big deal to his students and others of us, but others of us, but others of us, but I think the thing that I I think the thing that I I think the thing that I remember most from that time was remember most from that time was remember most from that time was Eugene came to recognize Eugene came to recognize Eugene came to recognize that Bono is a brother in the faith. that Bono is a brother in the faith. that Bono is a brother in the faith. And And And uh uh uh and this what he's doing as a musician and this what he's doing as a musician and this what he's doing as a musician is ministry. is ministry. is ministry. Uh he's pointing to the kingdom of God. Uh he's pointing to the kingdom of God. Uh he's pointing to the kingdom of God. And And And um um um So I I think for people that may have So I I think for people that may have So I I think for people that may have been suspicious about that, you know, been suspicious about that, you know, been suspicious about that, you know, maybe something about the Irish style maybe something about the Irish style maybe something about the Irish style uh language or whatever, um uh language or whatever, um uh language or whatever, um that there may have been a validation that there may have been a validation that there may have been a validation for some folks in some people's minds for some folks in some people's minds for some folks in some people's minds like, "Oh, Eugene thinks he's a like, "Oh, Eugene thinks he's a like, "Oh, Eugene thinks he's a legitimate legitimate legitimate uh partner in the uh partner in the uh partner in the in the gospel."

in the gospel." in the gospel." Um Um Um But it Yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, But it Yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, But it Yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, I knew this was coming. I knew that the I knew this was coming. I knew that the I knew this was coming. I knew that the the appointment was happening, and then the appointment was happening, and then the appointment was happening, and then the next time we got together the next time we got together the next time we got together um they talked about it, but it was not um they talked about it, but it was not um they talked about it, but it was not a big deal to them at all. a big deal to them at all. a big deal to them at all. >> Right. Right, we had this guy over at >> Right. Right, we had this guy over at >> Right. Right, we had this guy over at the lake. the lake. the lake. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When when What's What's your assessment >> When when What's What's your assessment >> When when What's What's your assessment of that? Because I think the part that of that? Because I think the part that of that? Because I think the part that got me, and even the way they tell the got me, and even the way they tell the got me, and even the way they tell the story on the Fuller story on the Fuller story on the Fuller documentary, and we can we can post to documentary, and we can we can post to documentary, and we can we can post to that in the show notes, too, if you want that in the show notes, too, if you want that in the show notes, too, if you want to watch it. It's just very, very to watch it. It's just very, very to watch it. It's just very, very heartwarming. Actually, it made me tear heartwarming. Actually, it made me tear heartwarming. Actually, it made me tear up watching it again. Um was just, you up watching it again. Um was just, you up watching it again. Um was just, you know, that Eugene was the first to go, know, that Eugene was the first to go, know, that Eugene was the first to go, "Yeah, I didn't really know who Bono "Yeah, I didn't really know who Bono "Yeah, I didn't really know who Bono was, and was, and was, and seems like a good lad, and we'll have seems like a good lad, and we'll have seems like a good lad, and we'll have him in." him in." him in." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um but there was that unaffectedness >> Um but there was that unaffectedness >> Um but there was that unaffectedness that that that I thought was very that that that I thought was very that that that I thought was very endearing and rare. endearing and rare. endearing and rare. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, it was because he had work to do. Well, it was because he had work to do. Well, it was because he had work to do. Um Um Um you know, so part of the backstory is you know, so part of the backstory is you know, so part of the backstory is that that that they had asked if there would be a way they had asked if there would be a way they had asked if there would be a way to arrange for Eugene and Bono to meet to arrange for Eugene and Bono to meet to arrange for Eugene and Bono to meet up. And and Eugene said, "No." And up. And and Eugene said, "No." And up. And and Eugene said, "No." And >> That's right.

>> That's right. >> That's right. >> Um >> Um >> Um and he was There's a There is a YouTube and he was There's a There is a YouTube and he was There's a There is a YouTube video of a writers conference where he's video of a writers conference where he's video of a writers conference where he's being interviewed by being interviewed by being interviewed by someone, and the the sort of someone, and the the sort of someone, and the the sort of >> Dean at >> Dean at >> Dean at the Nazarene College, I think. the Nazarene College, I think. the Nazarene College, I think. >> Yeah, that's right. That's right. >> Yeah, that's right. That's right. >> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Palomar, yeah. Palomar, yeah. Palomar, yeah. >> Yeah, I was at that one, too. >> Yeah, I was at that one, too. >> Yeah, I was at that one, too. >> So, he's kind of narrating this and and >> So, he's kind of narrating this and and >> So, he's kind of narrating this and and he he you know and and he said, "You he he you know and and he said, "You he he you know and and he said, "You said no to Bono." And everyone starts said no to Bono." And everyone starts said no to Bono." And everyone starts laughing and laughing and laughing and and then Dean says, "But Eugene, it was and then Dean says, "But Eugene, it was and then Dean says, "But Eugene, it was Bono." Bono." Bono." And what Eugene had already described And what Eugene had already described And what Eugene had already described was that he was in the tail end of of was that he was in the tail end of of was that he was in the tail end of of finishing up the Old Testament in The finishing up the Old Testament in The finishing up the Old Testament in The Message translation. And so, Dean says, Message translation. And so, Dean says, Message translation. And so, Dean says, "Uh Eugene, it was Bono." And everybody "Uh Eugene, it was Bono." And everybody "Uh Eugene, it was Bono." And everybody laughs and it sort of pauses when it laughs and it sort of pauses when it laughs and it sort of pauses when it dies down and then and then Eugene says, dies down and then and then Eugene says, dies down and then and then Eugene says, "But Dean, "But Dean, "But Dean, it was it was Isaiah or Jeremiah, I it was it was Isaiah or Jeremiah, I it was it was Isaiah or Jeremiah, I can't remember. can't remember. can't remember. It was Isaiah, I think. And uh It was Isaiah, I think. And uh It was Isaiah, I think. And uh And I And again, I I mean, it's funny And I And again, I I mean, it's funny And I And again, I I mean, it's funny now and it is, you know, it's it's a now and it is, you know, it's it's a now and it is, you know, it's it's a little quirky, but little quirky, but little quirky, but I think the deeper truth is I think the deeper truth is I think the deeper truth is it it wasn't it it wasn't it it wasn't you know, some kind of weird asceticism.

you know, some kind of weird asceticism. you know, some kind of weird asceticism. It wasn't him trying to be the guy who It wasn't him trying to be the guy who It wasn't him trying to be the guy who who doesn't care about Bono. It was like who doesn't care about Bono. It was like who doesn't care about Bono. It was like he he had work to do. God had called him he he had work to do. God had called him he he had work to do. God had called him to do this. to do this. to do this. And that was what was essential. And he And that was what was essential. And he And that was what was essential. And he did arrive at a place where did arrive at a place where did arrive at a place where it you know, someone it you know, someone it you know, someone um um um who had a big celebrity, that just who had a big celebrity, that just who had a big celebrity, that just wasn't That was of zero concern to him. wasn't That was of zero concern to him. wasn't That was of zero concern to him. Um it was like, "What is God up to?" And Um it was like, "What is God up to?" And Um it was like, "What is God up to?" And And that connects very much with what And that connects very much with what And that connects very much with what Eric just said, which was his deep love Eric just said, which was his deep love Eric just said, which was his deep love and admiration for what Bono was doing and admiration for what Bono was doing and admiration for what Bono was doing had nothing to do with Bono's celebrity, had nothing to do with Bono's celebrity, had nothing to do with Bono's celebrity, had everything to do with the fact that had everything to do with the fact that had everything to do with the fact that Bono was being true to what God had Bono was being true to what God had Bono was being true to what God had called him to do. And called him to do. And called him to do. And And Eugene could see that. And Eugene could see that. And Eugene could see that. And And And And And And um um um because of Bono's because of Bono's because of Bono's uh uh uh fame, fame, fame, it made him it made him it made him all the more careful about ever all the more careful about ever all the more careful about ever referring to Bono, referring to Bono, referring to Bono, using Bono in any way. using Bono in any way. using Bono in any way. So, when I was gathering So, when I was gathering So, when I was gathering um um um names and information from Eugene and names and information from Eugene and names and information from Eugene and Jan about Jan about Jan about people to interview, etc., people to interview, etc., people to interview, etc., they were so generous with everything. I they were so generous with everything. I they were so generous with everything. I mean, they just they they opened up mean, they just they they opened up mean, they just they they opened up their lives and their resources and their lives and their resources and their lives and their resources and everything to me with no questions about everything to me with no questions about everything to me with no questions about how I was going to use it or anything.

how I was going to use it or anything. how I was going to use it or anything. The one um The one um The one um the one place was different was Bono. the one place was different was Bono. the one place was different was Bono. Um Um Um Eugene was very skittish about Eugene was very skittish about Eugene was very skittish about um in any way um in any way um in any way asking Bono to do something that felt asking Bono to do something that felt asking Bono to do something that felt like it was appealing to him because of like it was appealing to him because of like it was appealing to him because of his celebrity. his celebrity. his celebrity. And um And um And um so, I so, I so, I that's who he was to his core. that's who he was to his core. that's who he was to his core. >> I'm I'm I'm so glad you told that >> I'm I'm I'm so glad you told that >> I'm I'm I'm so glad you told that because that is so countercultural in because that is so countercultural in because that is so countercultural in this moment. Most of us, if we got a this moment. Most of us, if we got a this moment. Most of us, if we got a minute with Bono, it it wouldn't it minute with Bono, it it wouldn't it minute with Bono, it it wouldn't it wouldn't last 30 seconds without being wouldn't last 30 seconds without being wouldn't last 30 seconds without being on TikTok or Instagram or on TikTok or Instagram or on TikTok or Instagram or you know, whatever. And I I think that's you know, whatever. And I I think that's you know, whatever. And I I think that's very endearing and all too rare in our very endearing and all too rare in our very endearing and all too rare in our generation. Eric, I I got a few more generation. Eric, I I got a few more generation. Eric, I I got a few more questions. Such a rich conversation, by questions. Such a rich conversation, by questions. Such a rich conversation, by the way. Thank you both so much. Eric, the way. Thank you both so much. Eric, the way. Thank you both so much. Eric, your parents, again, I watched a number your parents, again, I watched a number your parents, again, I watched a number of videos, read the biography, read your of videos, read the biography, read your of videos, read the biography, read your dad's books, etc., etc. And uh you wrote dad's books, etc., etc. And uh you wrote dad's books, etc., etc. And uh you wrote a great book uh with your dad called a great book uh with your dad called a great book uh with your dad called Letters to a Young Pastor, where you Letters to a Young Pastor, where you Letters to a Young Pastor, where you share letters share letters share letters over a number of years, which is so over a number of years, which is so over a number of years, which is so powerful. But, I want to talk about the powerful. But, I want to talk about the powerful. But, I want to talk about the relationship between your mom and your relationship between your mom and your relationship between your mom and your dad.

dad. dad. It seems like there were definitely It seems like there were definitely It seems like there were definitely differences, but they made it work in in differences, but they made it work in in differences, but they made it work in in in a beloved way over six decades. What in a beloved way over six decades. What in a beloved way over six decades. What were what were some of the strengths of were what were some of the strengths of were what were some of the strengths of that marriage? And then, what were some that marriage? And then, what were some that marriage? And then, what were some of the tension points that you saw of the tension points that you saw of the tension points that you saw between your mom and your dad in their between your mom and your dad in their between your mom and your dad in their relationship and how they made it work relationship and how they made it work relationship and how they made it work over the years? >> Yeah, I I think they were just um deeply >> Yeah, I I think they were just um deeply devoted to each other. And so, they were devoted to each other. And so, they were devoted to each other. And so, they were committed to making whatever happened committed to making whatever happened committed to making whatever happened work. work. work. Um Um Um I think I remember one time hearing my I think I remember one time hearing my I think I remember one time hearing my dad raise his voice dad raise his voice dad raise his voice uh at uh at uh at at my mother. at my mother. at my mother. And uh it was at the dinner table and he And uh it was at the dinner table and he And uh it was at the dinner table and he actually slammed his fist on the table actually slammed his fist on the table actually slammed his fist on the table and said, "Cool it, Jan." and said, "Cool it, Jan." and said, "Cool it, Jan." >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> And everyone just everyone kind of got >> And everyone just everyone kind of got >> And everyone just everyone kind of got quiet. quiet. quiet. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um >> Um >> Um but they they just adored each other and but they they just adored each other and but they they just adored each other and uh and uh and uh and Jan loved her role as pastor's spouse. Jan loved her role as pastor's spouse. Jan loved her role as pastor's spouse. Um Um Um I think the I think the tension I I think the I think the tension I I think the I think the tension I probably most witnessed was later when probably most witnessed was later when probably most witnessed was later when when I think Jan had this expectation when I think Jan had this expectation when I think Jan had this expectation that his work would that his work would that his work would uh uh uh uh tail off a little bit, the intensity, uh tail off a little bit, the intensity, uh tail off a little bit, the intensity, the hours.

the hours. the hours. Um Um Um and was sort of jealous for his time and and was sort of jealous for his time and and was sort of jealous for his time and just found that he just I remember one just found that he just I remember one just found that he just I remember one time uh time uh time uh he they were at our house and he had a he they were at our house and he had a he they were at our house and he had a legal pad and he was legal pad and he was legal pad and he was jotting some stuff down. We we he and I jotting some stuff down. We we he and I jotting some stuff down. We we he and I were talking and he had some some idea were talking and he had some some idea were talking and he had some some idea for a book. I said, "What are you doing, for a book. I said, "What are you doing, for a book. I said, "What are you doing, Dad?" He said, "Well, I just have a this Dad?" He said, "Well, I just have a this Dad?" He said, "Well, I just have a this idea." And idea." And idea." And I always got a idea for the the next I always got a idea for the the next I always got a idea for the the next book, you know, and book, you know, and book, you know, and Jan walked into the room and Jan walked into the room and Jan walked into the room and under- you know, figured out what he was under- you know, figured out what he was under- you know, figured out what he was doing and she just about, you know, like doing and she just about, you know, like doing and she just about, you know, like her mouth opened up and she's like, her mouth opened up and she's like, her mouth opened up and she's like, "What are you doing?" "What are you doing?" "What are you doing?" Um be done with this. Um be done with this. Um be done with this. Um Um Um so that that was certainly a point of so that that was certainly a point of so that that was certainly a point of uh uh uh tension. Uh just feeling like tension. Uh just feeling like tension. Uh just feeling like he worked really hard uh he worked really hard uh he worked really hard uh up to the end and up to the end and up to the end and he felt I think maybe that the way I he felt I think maybe that the way I he felt I think maybe that the way I felt as a child a bit neglected. felt as a child a bit neglected. felt as a child a bit neglected. Um and he worked at that. That is he Um and he worked at that. That is he Um and he worked at that. That is he when he really did give up the the when he really did give up the the when he really did give up the the writing pen writing pen writing pen uh he took over some domestic uh he took over some domestic uh he took over some domestic responsibilities. Uh he had a laundry responsibilities. Uh he had a laundry responsibilities. Uh he had a laundry day each week and uh day each week and uh day each week and uh that was just something that he kind of that was just something that he kind of that was just something that he kind of took on, almost like a monastic took on, almost like a monastic took on, almost like a monastic discipline. Like that's part of my discipline. Like that's part of my discipline. Like that's part of my uh uh uh contemplative rhythm. I'm doing the contemplative rhythm. I'm doing the contemplative rhythm. I'm doing the laundry.

laundry. laundry. Um but I think the other Um but I think the other Um but I think the other uh the other thing I'll point to in uh the other thing I'll point to in uh the other thing I'll point to in terms of a marital rhythm is their terms of a marital rhythm is their terms of a marital rhythm is their Sabbath keeping practices. Uh Monday was Sabbath keeping practices. Uh Monday was Sabbath keeping practices. Uh Monday was his day off. his day off. his day off. And um at some point they And um at some point they And um at some point they they this became kind of a sacrosanct they this became kind of a sacrosanct they this became kind of a sacrosanct discipline for them. discipline for them. discipline for them. Um I remember you know, getting ready, Um I remember you know, getting ready, Um I remember you know, getting ready, taking off, going to school, taking off, going to school, taking off, going to school, um junior high, high school, and they um junior high, high school, and they um junior high, high school, and they were they were packing their lunches. were they were packing their lunches. were they were packing their lunches. They were getting ready to hit the trail They were getting ready to hit the trail They were getting ready to hit the trail and uh hike, spend the day and uh hike, spend the day and uh hike, spend the day um um um just in in quiet, in conversation, in just in in quiet, in conversation, in just in in quiet, in conversation, in prayer. Uh that was their Sabbath prayer. Uh that was their Sabbath prayer. Uh that was their Sabbath rhythm. rhythm. rhythm. And I expect And I expect And I expect um um um that that was a an important sustaining that that was a an important sustaining that that was a an important sustaining practice. practice. practice. It uh it was adapted over the years, but It uh it was adapted over the years, but It uh it was adapted over the years, but they were they were pretty diligent they were they were pretty diligent they were they were pretty diligent about Sabbath keeping together. about Sabbath keeping together. about Sabbath keeping together. >> You know, I don't think this made it >> You know, I don't think this made it >> You know, I don't think this made it into the book, but you mentioned, you into the book, but you mentioned, you into the book, but you mentioned, you know, the rhythm of life and again, the know, the rhythm of life and again, the know, the rhythm of life and again, the videos give you a videos give you a videos give you a uh view into their home, their uh view into their home, their uh view into their home, their retirement home. And it had been retirement home. And it had been retirement home. And it had been obviously it's waterfront property, but obviously it's waterfront property, but obviously it's waterfront property, but had been in the family since the 1940s.

had been in the family since the 1940s. had been in the family since the 1940s. But you know, your dad published 35 But you know, your dad published 35 But you know, your dad published 35 books, books, books, sold a lot of copies. I'm sure they sold a lot of copies. I'm sure they sold a lot of copies. I'm sure they didn't have financial considerations, didn't have financial considerations, didn't have financial considerations, but if you're walking into the home, but if you're walking into the home, but if you're walking into the home, it looks like a very normal middle-class it looks like a very normal middle-class it looks like a very normal middle-class family home. You know, you got a white family home. You know, you got a white family home. You know, you got a white Mr. Coffee from the 1990s uh that's Mr. Coffee from the 1990s uh that's Mr. Coffee from the 1990s uh that's about 20 years old on the cabinet. about 20 years old on the cabinet. about 20 years old on the cabinet. There's there's nothing affected about There's there's nothing affected about There's there's nothing affected about the environment. And I want to know that the environment. And I want to know that the environment. And I want to know that that humility that your parents seem to that humility that your parents seem to that humility that your parents seem to have, that that Eugene and Jan seem to have, that that Eugene and Jan seem to have, that that Eugene and Jan seem to have, have, have, how did they handle that financially? how did they handle that financially? how did they handle that financially? In their lifestyle and things like that. In their lifestyle and things like that. In their lifestyle and things like that. What did you see? What did you see? What did you see? >> Yeah, I think what I saw is that it did >> Yeah, I think what I saw is that it did >> Yeah, I think what I saw is that it did not affect them in any significant way not affect them in any significant way not affect them in any significant way in terms of their own in terms of their own in terms of their own uh lifestyle. uh lifestyle. uh lifestyle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think part of that is that they >> Um and I think part of that is that they >> Um and I think part of that is that they were, you know, they always struggled were, you know, they always struggled were, you know, they always struggled financially. Um financially. Um financially. Um >> Being a pastor >> Being a pastor >> Being a pastor >> My dad was not a well-paid pastor.

>> My dad was not a well-paid pastor. >> My dad was not a well-paid pastor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and so you learn how to live on a >> Um and so you learn how to live on a >> Um and so you learn how to live on a budget and you learn how to live simply budget and you learn how to live simply budget and you learn how to live simply and they had adopted and they had adopted and they had adopted um um um those those val- the values of those those val- the values of those those val- the values of simplicity. simplicity. simplicity. So they didn't accumulate stuff, um So they didn't accumulate stuff, um So they didn't accumulate stuff, um didn't value stuff, um unless it had an didn't value stuff, um unless it had an didn't value stuff, um unless it had an aesthetic quality about it. aesthetic quality about it. aesthetic quality about it. Um I remember kind of buying a tool and Um I remember kind of buying a tool and Um I remember kind of buying a tool and he's like, "No, um he's like, "No, um he's like, "No, um I think it was a I forget now what it I think it was a I forget now what it I think it was a I forget now what it was, but he was like, "No, I've got this was, but he was like, "No, I've got this was, but he was like, "No, I've got this I've got this other way of doing that I've got this other way of doing that I've got this other way of doing that and that works just fine." and that works just fine." and that works just fine." Oh, I think it was a steam mop. It's Oh, I think it was a steam mop. It's Oh, I think it was a steam mop. It's like a a shark steam mop or something like a a shark steam mop or something like a a shark steam mop or something like that. like that. like that. >> you go. >> you go. >> you go. >> The this mop works just fine. >> The this mop works just fine. >> The this mop works just fine. Don't need another Don't need another Don't need another thing to plug in or another motor, you thing to plug in or another motor, you thing to plug in or another motor, you know, something like that that's going know, something like that that's going know, something like that that's going to break. to break. to break. Um so I think it was just a a lifestyle Um so I think it was just a a lifestyle Um so I think it was just a a lifestyle of simplicity that they had already of simplicity that they had already of simplicity that they had already grooved their way into grooved their way into grooved their way into so that at the point at which they had so that at the point at which they had so that at the point at which they had discretionary money discretionary money discretionary money my mother was still clipping coupons my mother was still clipping coupons my mother was still clipping coupons from Costco.

from Costco. from Costco. And still saving a tablespoon of tomato And still saving a tablespoon of tomato And still saving a tablespoon of tomato paste so it wouldn't go to waste. She paste so it wouldn't go to waste. She paste so it wouldn't go to waste. She They just were frugal that way. They just were frugal that way. They just were frugal that way. And um And um And um and but not miserly. Uh the generosity and but not miserly. Uh the generosity and but not miserly. Uh the generosity that they that they that they uh expressed was toward others. uh expressed was toward others. uh expressed was toward others. Um Um Um I was a recipient of that generosity. I I was a recipient of that generosity. I I was a recipient of that generosity. I don't know how many don't know how many don't know how many students uh had their tuition paid for. students uh had their tuition paid for. students uh had their tuition paid for. Um sabbaticals, retreats, therapy, um Um sabbaticals, retreats, therapy, um Um sabbaticals, retreats, therapy, um that my folks covered. that my folks covered. that my folks covered. Um Um Um they uh I would receive a much bigger they uh I would receive a much bigger they uh I would receive a much bigger inheritance had they not been so inheritance had they not been so inheritance had they not been so generous. Let's put it that way. generous. Let's put it that way. generous. Let's put it that way. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um So, So, um um um but I but I think that was the other but I but I think that was the other but I but I think that was the other thing is they thing is they thing is they um um um I don't know if it was a fear exactly, I don't know if it was a fear exactly, I don't know if it was a fear exactly, but a kind of a cautious maybe a but a kind of a cautious maybe a but a kind of a cautious maybe a cautious respect cautious respect cautious respect for the for the for the um um um I mean, the love of money really is the I mean, the love of money really is the I mean, the love of money really is the root of all evil.

root of all evil. root of all evil. >> Back to losing your soul where we >> Back to losing your soul where we >> Back to losing your soul where we started, right? It's not that hard. started, right? It's not that hard. started, right? It's not that hard. >> it's very connected to that. So, >> it's very connected to that. So, >> it's very connected to that. So, they were wary of it. Um generous with they were wary of it. Um generous with they were wary of it. Um generous with other people. other people. other people. I never saw them I think on their 50th I never saw them I think on their 50th I never saw them I think on their 50th anniversary they they uncorked one. We anniversary they they uncorked one. We anniversary they they uncorked one. We went to a Vancouver Island to a went to a Vancouver Island to a went to a Vancouver Island to a kind of a bed and breakfast type place kind of a bed and breakfast type place kind of a bed and breakfast type place um Sooke, B.C. um Sooke, B.C. um Sooke, B.C. Um and that there was a big bill at the Um and that there was a big bill at the Um and that there was a big bill at the end of that time. But end of that time. But end of that time. But but you should uncork one when you're but you should uncork one when you're but you should uncork one when you're >> to say, if you make it 50 years and >> to say, if you make it 50 years and >> to say, if you make it 50 years and yeah, I mean, no no one's criticizing yeah, I mean, no no one's criticizing yeah, I mean, no no one's criticizing you for that. you for that. you for that. >> Yeah, but they drove modest cars. >> Yeah, but they drove modest cars. >> Yeah, but they drove modest cars. Um the house, you know, I would say the Um the house, you know, I would say the Um the house, you know, I would say the house that they lived in at the end house that they lived in at the end house that they lived in at the end there was um a little more than middle there was um a little more than middle there was um a little more than middle class. They They did some nice things, class. They They did some nice things, class. They They did some nice things, but I think that was largely motivated but I think that was largely motivated but I think that was largely motivated out of knowing that they would be out of knowing that they would be out of knowing that they would be entertaining people. entertaining people. entertaining people. Uh welcoming people into that space. Uh welcoming people into that space. Uh welcoming people into that space. >> That's what they said, we expanded it >> That's what they said, we expanded it >> That's what they said, we expanded it knowing that there would be many knowing that there would be many knowing that there would be many overnight guests. overnight guests. overnight guests. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> When, what did you see in terms of >> When, what did you see in terms of >> When, what did you see in terms of financial integrity with uh with Eugene financial integrity with uh with Eugene financial integrity with uh with Eugene and Jan?

and Jan? and Jan? >> I saw everything that um >> I saw everything that um >> I saw everything that um Eric described. I mean, when I was going Eric described. I mean, when I was going Eric described. I mean, when I was going through their their files, I mean, I ran through their their files, I mean, I ran through their their files, I mean, I ran into their into their into their financial statements, you know, from financial statements, you know, from financial statements, you know, from their their their um money given away and the number of um money given away and the number of um money given away and the number of students he mentioned like PhD students students he mentioned like PhD students students he mentioned like PhD students who who who uh Jan and Eugene just wrote the checks uh Jan and Eugene just wrote the checks uh Jan and Eugene just wrote the checks to pay their tuition to pay their tuition to pay their tuition for multiple years. for multiple years. for multiple years. Um Um Um uh I remember one friend uh uh I remember one friend uh uh I remember one friend uh told me told me told me years later years later years later um um um Eugene he was good friends with Jan Eugene he was good friends with Jan Eugene he was good friends with Jan Eugene and and Eugene asked him, "Why Eugene and and Eugene asked him, "Why Eugene and and Eugene asked him, "Why didn't you ever didn't you ever didn't you ever ask us to pay your ask us to pay your ask us to pay your uh pay your PhD bill?" And uh pay your PhD bill?" And uh pay your PhD bill?" And he said, "Well, I didn't know it was an he said, "Well, I didn't know it was an he said, "Well, I didn't know it was an option, you know?" option, you know?" option, you know?" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But um >> But um >> But um I mean one time when I was there, there I mean one time when I was there, there I mean one time when I was there, there was a story in the the local paper um of was a story in the the local paper um of was a story in the the local paper um of uh I think it was a young girl who uh I think it was a young girl who uh I think it was a young girl who needed a kidney. needed a kidney. needed a kidney. And um And um And um I was just a a story in the paper. And I was just a a story in the paper. And I was just a a story in the paper. And the next morning, Jan was on the phone the next morning, Jan was on the phone the next morning, Jan was on the phone calling the editor uh tracking down who calling the editor uh tracking down who calling the editor uh tracking down who this family was this family was this family was so that they could so that they could so that they could pay pay pay whatever was left they needed for her to whatever was left they needed for her to whatever was left they needed for her to to have the operation. So, this was just to have the operation. So, this was just to have the operation. So, this was just the way they lived.

the way they lived. the way they lived. >> That's impressive. >> That's impressive. >> That's impressive. >> You know >> You know >> You know >> was darning their socks. >> was darning their socks. >> was darning their socks. You know, when there was a hole You know, when there was a hole You know, when there was a hole >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> hole in socks, she was mending >> hole in socks, she was mending >> hole in socks, she was mending [clears throat] them. [clears throat] them. [clears throat] them. Um Um Um I think I had to force him one time to I think I had to force him one time to I think I had to force him one time to actually go to Nordstrom's and get a actually go to Nordstrom's and get a actually go to Nordstrom's and get a real suit, you know, that cuz he was the real suit, you know, that cuz he was the real suit, you know, that cuz he was the stuff he was wearing was so shabby. stuff he was wearing was so shabby. stuff he was wearing was so shabby. They just did not They just did not They just did not indulge themselves. indulge themselves. indulge themselves. Um Um Um but but but but they did other I mean, they didn't but they did other I mean, they didn't but they did other I mean, they didn't indulge others, but they cared for indulge others, but they cared for indulge others, but they cared for others. They just they they made life others. They just they they made life others. They just they they made life possible for some people. possible for some people. possible for some people. >> See, and this is this is what is so >> See, and this is this is what is so >> See, and this is this is what is so beautiful about the story. And what I beautiful about the story. And what I beautiful about the story. And what I appreciated about A Burning in appreciated about A Burning in appreciated about A Burning in My Bones is it wasn't a hagiography, and My Bones is it wasn't a hagiography, and My Bones is it wasn't a hagiography, and yet there is so much to admire. And yet there is so much to admire. And yet there is so much to admire. And there's so much to ascribe to. And I there's so much to ascribe to. And I there's so much to ascribe to. And I sent my wife uh one of the videos sent my wife uh one of the videos sent my wife uh one of the videos yesterday, and I said, "I hope in 25 yesterday, and I said, "I hope in 25 yesterday, and I said, "I hope in 25 years we're somewhat similar to this." years we're somewhat similar to this." years we're somewhat similar to this." Like that would be great. Wouldn't it be Like that would be great. Wouldn't it be Like that would be great. Wouldn't it be great to finish great to finish great to finish with that kind of an open door and an with that kind of an open door and an with that kind of an open door and an open heart open heart open heart and a willingness to help others and and a willingness to help others and and a willingness to help others and maybe think of others more than you maybe think of others more than you maybe think of others more than you think of yourself and just that that think of yourself and just that that think of yourself and just that that friendship. You could see that very deep friendship. You could see that very deep friendship. You could see that very deep friendship and fondness that friendship and fondness that friendship and fondness that uh Eugene and Jan shared. Uh but it uh Eugene and Jan shared. Uh but it uh Eugene and Jan shared. Uh but it wasn't all perfect in paradise, either.

wasn't all perfect in paradise, either. wasn't all perfect in paradise, either. We've talked about a lot of that, but We've talked about a lot of that, but We've talked about a lot of that, but there's two areas I I want to talk about there's two areas I I want to talk about there's two areas I I want to talk about before we wrap up. One is um the before we wrap up. One is um the before we wrap up. One is um the bourbon. You know, that that that shows bourbon. You know, that that that shows bourbon. You know, that that that shows up that Eugene seemed to really enjoy up that Eugene seemed to really enjoy up that Eugene seemed to really enjoy his bourbon or his double every night his bourbon or his double every night his bourbon or his double every night and that seemed to be a little bit of a and that seemed to be a little bit of a and that seemed to be a little bit of a a struggle for him in some respects. Not a struggle for him in some respects. Not a struggle for him in some respects. Not that he was drunk or or anything, but that he was drunk or or anything, but that he was drunk or or anything, but when why did you include that in the when why did you include that in the when why did you include that in the book? What did you see there and uh tell book? What did you see there and uh tell book? What did you see there and uh tell us that part of the story. >> I think a main reason I included it just >> I think a main reason I included it just cuz it at some point it felt dishonest cuz it at some point it felt dishonest cuz it at some point it felt dishonest not to cuz he mentioned it so often in not to cuz he mentioned it so often in not to cuz he mentioned it so often in his journals. his journals. his journals. Um I think it was very much tied to his Um I think it was very much tied to his Um I think it was very much tied to his his longing to be transformed by Christ his longing to be transformed by Christ his longing to be transformed by Christ and I think he felt and I think he felt and I think he felt that there were times where this is just that there were times where this is just that there were times where this is just something that had more of a hold on him something that had more of a hold on him something that had more of a hold on him than he wanted and he wanted to be shed than he wanted and he wanted to be shed than he wanted and he wanted to be shed of of things that had a hold on him. of of things that had a hold on him. of of things that had a hold on him. So, yeah, I mean it it it was something So, yeah, I mean it it it was something So, yeah, I mean it it it was something he referenced over a couple decades. Um he referenced over a couple decades. Um he referenced over a couple decades. Um I think if I remember right, Eric, you I think if I remember right, Eric, you I think if I remember right, Eric, you mentioned that that wasn't something you mentioned that that wasn't something you mentioned that that wasn't something you were really familiar with. Is that right were really familiar with. Is that right were really familiar with. Is that right or or or am I wrong about that?

am I wrong about that? am I wrong about that? >> Yeah, it didn't seem um >> Yeah, it didn't seem um >> Yeah, it didn't seem um I I guess I didn't come to think of it I I guess I didn't come to think of it I I guess I didn't come to think of it as being inappropriate. Uh so, I didn't as being inappropriate. Uh so, I didn't as being inappropriate. Uh so, I didn't know that it was uh that he wrestled know that it was uh that he wrestled know that it was uh that he wrestled with it. Um with it. Um with it. Um >> So, it was a glass of bourbon after >> So, it was a glass of bourbon after >> So, it was a glass of bourbon after dinner or something like that. dinner or something like that. dinner or something like that. >> Yeah, it didn't it didn't affect the >> Yeah, it didn't it didn't affect the >> Yeah, it didn't it didn't affect the relationships. You know, that's sort of relationships. You know, that's sort of relationships. You know, that's sort of the the the the the the the the the sort of the litmus test for me is is sort of the litmus test for me is is sort of the litmus test for me is is that a problem? that a problem? that a problem? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um if [clears throat] yeah, he was never >> Um if [clears throat] yeah, he was never >> Um if [clears throat] yeah, he was never um didn't seem to compromise him, but I um didn't seem to compromise him, but I um didn't seem to compromise him, but I think he he felt it uh like the next day think he he felt it uh like the next day think he he felt it uh like the next day just didn't feel feel like he was just didn't feel feel like he was just didn't feel feel like he was clear-headed clear-headed clear-headed to do the work he was called to do and to do the work he was called to do and to do the work he was called to do and just just just kind of kept berating himself. This And kind of kept berating himself. This And kind of kept berating himself. This And this is me just learning from uh Winn this is me just learning from uh Winn this is me just learning from uh Winn after reading the journals, after reading the journals, after reading the journals, um, that he came to um, that he came to um, that he came to um, kind of regret that, feel like this um, kind of regret that, feel like this um, kind of regret that, feel like this is is is I mean, I think Winn says it really well I mean, I think Winn says it really well I mean, I think Winn says it really well in the biography, you know, in in every in the biography, you know, in in every in the biography, you know, in in every other other other aspect of his life he's this highly aspect of his life he's this highly aspect of his life he's this highly disciplined person disciplined person disciplined person and this was an area that um and this was an area that um and this was an area that um that he just that he just that he just couldn't say couldn't say couldn't say didn't feel like he was in control of didn't feel like he was in control of didn't feel like he was in control of altogether, you know.

altogether, you know. altogether, you know. Um Um Um again, not not like he was an alcoholic again, not not like he was an alcoholic again, not not like he was an alcoholic or or or >> No. >> No. >> No. >> uh out of control, but just uh didn't >> uh out of control, but just uh didn't >> uh out of control, but just uh didn't didn't have that same didn't have that same didn't have that same um, applied discipline. um, applied discipline. um, applied discipline. Um Um Um so, I yeah, I'm I felt like it was so, I yeah, I'm I felt like it was so, I yeah, I'm I felt like it was important. I was glad that it came out. important. I was glad that it came out. important. I was glad that it came out. I think it's important to I think it's important to I think it's important to it's mostly encouraging for the rest of it's mostly encouraging for the rest of it's mostly encouraging for the rest of us mortals to kind of see someone that us mortals to kind of see someone that us mortals to kind of see someone that we had admired to say like, oh, he we had admired to say like, oh, he we had admired to say like, oh, he struggled with that, too. That's glad to struggled with that, too. That's glad to struggled with that, too. That's glad to know that. know that. know that. >> Yeah, and and I think that's what makes >> Yeah, and and I think that's what makes >> Yeah, and and I think that's what makes the story even more compelling is that the story even more compelling is that the story even more compelling is that it is a journey it is a journey it is a journey and you see the wrestling with ministry, and you see the wrestling with ministry, and you see the wrestling with ministry, you see the wrestling with you see the wrestling with you see the wrestling with uh should I just stop drinking, you uh should I just stop drinking, you uh should I just stop drinking, you know. And again, as you said, it's not know. And again, as you said, it's not know. And again, as you said, it's not like he was an alcoholic, he was like he was an alcoholic, he was like he was an alcoholic, he was abusive, or he got drunk every night. abusive, or he got drunk every night. abusive, or he got drunk every night. It's not it. It's just that we all have It's not it. It's just that we all have It's not it. It's just that we all have one or two areas of our life that I one or two areas of our life that I one or two areas of our life that I think we all think we all think we all uh struggle in and I think realizing uh struggle in and I think realizing uh struggle in and I think realizing that some of the people that some of the people that some of the people that really have left a great legacy uh that really have left a great legacy uh that really have left a great legacy uh we're not that much different than we we're not that much different than we we're not that much different than we are.

are. are. Um probably I got the opportunity to Um probably I got the opportunity to Um probably I got the opportunity to interview Eugene in the summer of 2017, interview Eugene in the summer of 2017, interview Eugene in the summer of 2017, which was I remember when the email came which was I remember when the email came which was I remember when the email came in from the publisher, would you like 30 in from the publisher, would you like 30 in from the publisher, would you like 30 minutes with Eugene Peterson? I'm like minutes with Eugene Peterson? I'm like minutes with Eugene Peterson? I'm like you name it. I'll be there." And I you name it. I'll be there." And I you name it. I'll be there." And I talked with him over the phone. There talked with him over the phone. There talked with him over the phone. There was none of this. There was no video. was none of this. There was no video. was none of this. There was no video. There was like I called the landline at There was like I called the landline at There was like I called the landline at the place in Kalispell in in Montana. the place in Kalispell in in Montana. the place in Kalispell in in Montana. And we had a conversation. And we had a conversation. And we had a conversation. And it was just 30 minutes, but they're And it was just 30 minutes, but they're And it was just 30 minutes, but they're 30 minutes that I'll always treasure. 30 minutes that I'll always treasure. 30 minutes that I'll always treasure. Unfortunately, there was an interview Unfortunately, there was an interview Unfortunately, there was an interview that kind of went south on Eugene that that kind of went south on Eugene that that kind of went south on Eugene that final summer when he was um well, when final summer when he was um well, when final summer when he was um well, when he was talking about his book, his what he was talking about his book, his what he was talking about his book, his what would become his last book while he was would become his last book while he was would become his last book while he was alive as Kingfisher's Catch Fire. And um alive as Kingfisher's Catch Fire. And um alive as Kingfisher's Catch Fire. And um it was a journalist who asked him a it was a journalist who asked him a it was a journalist who asked him a question about same-sex marriage and question about same-sex marriage and question about same-sex marriage and whether he would be affirming and do the whether he would be affirming and do the whether he would be affirming and do the wedding of a same-sex couple. And Eugene wedding of a same-sex couple. And Eugene wedding of a same-sex couple. And Eugene said, said, said, which this didn't come out, came out in which this didn't come out, came out in which this didn't come out, came out in the book after a long pause, said, the book after a long pause, said, the book after a long pause, said, "Yes." "Yes." "Yes." And that kind of lit up the headlines And that kind of lit up the headlines And that kind of lit up the headlines for a few weeks. And do you want to pick for a few weeks. And do you want to pick for a few weeks. And do you want to pick up the story up the story up the story from there?

from there? from there? Uh cuz it was it was it just crushed me Uh cuz it was it was it just crushed me Uh cuz it was it was it just crushed me to see what happened to Eugene in those to see what happened to Eugene in those to see what happened to Eugene in those last months. last months. last months. And do you want to frame it for us when And do you want to frame it for us when And do you want to frame it for us when and then I'd like to hear your take on and then I'd like to hear your take on and then I'd like to hear your take on it, too, Eric. it, too, Eric. it, too, Eric. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I mainly would like to hear Eric cuz I I mainly would like to hear Eric cuz I I mainly would like to hear Eric cuz he was a little more on the inside um he was a little more on the inside um he was a little more on the inside um with his with his parents as it was with his with his parents as it was with his with his parents as it was happening. I I arrived happening. I I arrived happening. I I arrived maybe 3 weeks um back to their house maybe 3 weeks um back to their house maybe 3 weeks um back to their house after that. And it was the first thing after that. And it was the first thing after that. And it was the first thing Eugene wanted to talk about. I think he Eugene wanted to talk about. I think he Eugene wanted to talk about. I think he was devastated. was devastated. was devastated. Um Um Um I mean, part of it is I mean, part of it is I mean, part of it is just to say um I think the whole you're just to say um I think the whole you're just to say um I think the whole you're talking about the landline, a call. talking about the landline, a call. talking about the landline, a call. Um there would be times with Eugene Um there would be times with Eugene Um there would be times with Eugene where it was where it was where it was very, very obvious very, very obvious very, very obvious that he was struggling. And there were that he was struggling. And there were that he was struggling. And there were other times other times other times >> to me in my interview >> to me in my interview >> to me in my interview >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that his memory wasn't what it was. >> that his memory wasn't what it was. >> that his memory wasn't what it was. >> Yeah. And there were other times where >> Yeah. And there were other times where >> Yeah. And there were other times where you'd be talking to him and it he would you'd be talking to him and it he would you'd be talking to him and it he would just be sharp as a tack. So, it you just be sharp as a tack. So, it you just be sharp as a tack. So, it you know, depending on the moment and know, depending on the moment and know, depending on the moment and I think I just I the honest reality is I think I just I the honest reality is I think I just I the honest reality is he shouldn't have been doing He was at a he shouldn't have been doing He was at a he shouldn't have been doing He was at a time in his life where he was past doing time in his life where he was past doing time in his life where he was past doing interviews, certainly past doing phone interviews, certainly past doing phone interviews, certainly past doing phone interviews without someone being there interviews without someone being there interviews without someone being there in conversation.

in conversation. in conversation. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And um >> And um >> And um Eugene Eugene Eugene his entire life his entire life his entire life uh uh uh Um some people called him coy. I don't Um some people called him coy. I don't Um some people called him coy. I don't personally think that's fair. personally think that's fair. personally think that's fair. I think he he was up to something else I think he he was up to something else I think he he was up to something else than the agendas of the time. than the agendas of the time. than the agendas of the time. And so And so And so >> Like answer a question with a question >> Like answer a question with a question >> Like answer a question with a question kind of coy? kind of coy? kind of coy? >> Yeah, or just the fact that he didn't >> Yeah, or just the fact that he didn't >> Yeah, or just the fact that he didn't sort of trust the energies and sort of trust the energies and sort of trust the energies and often the often the often the the arguments as presented. I mean, he the arguments as presented. I mean, he the arguments as presented. I mean, he he was it was about being a pastor to he was it was about being a pastor to he was it was about being a pastor to people. people. people. And you don't do that over social media. And you don't do that over social media. And you don't do that over social media. You do that in conversation. And You do that in conversation. And You do that in conversation. And so so so I think um I think um I think um you know, you know, you know, at his best Eugene would have at his best Eugene would have at his best Eugene would have um offered more clarity. He he would um offered more clarity. He he would um offered more clarity. He he would have or or reframe the question or have or or reframe the question or have or or reframe the question or um um um not because he was afraid to say what he not because he was afraid to say what he not because he was afraid to say what he believed, but because he he thought that believed, but because he he thought that believed, but because he he thought that this was a these were relational things.

this was a these were relational things. this was a these were relational things. Um but I'll let Eric step in because Um but I'll let Eric step in because Um but I'll let Eric step in because Eric was was more on the inside of of Eric was was more on the inside of of Eric was was more on the inside of of what was happening there. what was happening there. what was happening there. >> Well, that's that's really well said all >> Well, that's that's really well said all >> Well, that's that's really well said all that right there. I think it's important that right there. I think it's important that right there. I think it's important to to just affirm uh to to just affirm uh to to just affirm uh that he was not at his cognitive best. I that he was not at his cognitive best. I that he was not at his cognitive best. I don't think that we realized just how don't think that we realized just how don't think that we realized just how compromised he was at that time. compromised he was at that time. compromised he was at that time. Um Um Um and this I've learned subsequently to and this I've learned subsequently to and this I've learned subsequently to this incident is is oftentimes the case. this incident is is oftentimes the case. this incident is is oftentimes the case. Um people that Um people that Um people that are exceptionally bright have a way of are exceptionally bright have a way of are exceptionally bright have a way of sort of masking their cognitive decline sort of masking their cognitive decline sort of masking their cognitive decline or dementia. And so or dementia. And so or dementia. And so it was worse than we realized, and he it was worse than we realized, and he it was worse than we realized, and he should not have been doing that should not have been doing that should not have been doing that interview, but we didn't realize it at interview, but we didn't realize it at interview, but we didn't realize it at the time. It was um clearly an interview the time. It was um clearly an interview the time. It was um clearly an interview intended to be around that book. intended to be around that book. intended to be around that book. And so, as you said, it was unfortunate And so, as you said, it was unfortunate And so, as you said, it was unfortunate that the uh interviewer that the uh interviewer that the uh interviewer went off script, got, you know, entered went off script, got, you know, entered went off script, got, you know, entered into a topic that into a topic that into a topic that he wasn't prepared to address, um he wasn't prepared to address, um he wasn't prepared to address, um caught off guard.

caught off guard. caught off guard. But, I believe he answered it But, I believe he answered it But, I believe he answered it uh the way that he would answer it uh the way that he would answer it uh the way that he would answer it today. Yeah, and today. Yeah, and today. Yeah, and so, when so, when so, when when that sort of that news hit and the when that sort of that news hit and the when that sort of that news hit and the kerfuffle ensued, kerfuffle ensued, kerfuffle ensued, um the um the um the publishing of, you know, a variety of publishing of, you know, a variety of publishing of, you know, a variety of publishing houses got their heads publishing houses got their heads publishing houses got their heads together along with an agent and together along with an agent and together along with an agent and wrote this retraction wrote this retraction wrote this retraction that he agreed to. that he agreed to. that he agreed to. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And when I saw that come out uh a day or >> And when I saw that come out uh a day or >> And when I saw that come out uh a day or two later, I was just incensed cuz I two later, I was just incensed cuz I two later, I was just incensed cuz I just felt like just felt like just felt like uh uh uh again, he's being taken advantage of, again, he's being taken advantage of, again, he's being taken advantage of, um um um putting words in his mouth, and putting words in his mouth, and putting words in his mouth, and so, I I wrote a so, I I wrote a so, I I wrote a I wrote a a clarifying letter I wrote a a clarifying letter I wrote a a clarifying letter and uh and sent it to this agent as a and uh and sent it to this agent as a and uh and sent it to this agent as a courtesy just to say this is coming out courtesy just to say this is coming out courtesy just to say this is coming out tomorrow, just want you to know. tomorrow, just want you to know. tomorrow, just want you to know. And um And um And um he objected, of course, and so he objected, of course, and so he objected, of course, and so uh uh uh turned out that the three of us, the turned out that the three of us, the turned out that the three of us, the agent, myself, and Eugene got on a agent, myself, and Eugene got on a agent, myself, and Eugene got on a three-way conference call from, you three-way conference call from, you three-way conference call from, you know, three different states, and know, three different states, and know, three different states, and I think the first 30 minutes was just I think the first 30 minutes was just I think the first 30 minutes was just the this other person and me arguing the this other person and me arguing the this other person and me arguing about why or why this should not be um about why or why this should not be um about why or why this should not be um you know, put out there.

And then Eugene was just quiet, and I And then Eugene was just quiet, and I um um um and I I finally just blurted, uh "What and I I finally just blurted, uh "What and I I finally just blurted, uh "What do you think about all this? do you think about all this? do you think about all this? What do you want to do?" And I thought What do you want to do?" And I thought What do you want to do?" And I thought he'd fallen asleep in Montana. He was he'd fallen asleep in Montana. He was he'd fallen asleep in Montana. He was just quiet just quiet just quiet for the longest time. for the longest time. for the longest time. And he finally, And he finally, And he finally, uh this is this is kind of embedded in uh this is this is kind of embedded in uh this is this is kind of embedded in my memory. I'm pretty sure I got this my memory. I'm pretty sure I got this my memory. I'm pretty sure I got this exactly right. It was I I I I exactly right. It was I I I I exactly right. It was I I I I I just feel so incompetent. And And because of that moment, I I came to this because of that moment, I I came to this because of that moment, I I came to this real clarity of like, my job real clarity of like, my job real clarity of like, my job [clears throat] here is not to speak for [clears throat] here is not to speak for [clears throat] here is not to speak for him anymore. him anymore. him anymore. And my job is not to defend him. And my job is not to defend him. And my job is not to defend him. My job is to protect him. My job is to protect him. My job is to protect him. And so we just got him out of I mean, we And so we just got him out of I mean, we And so we just got him out of I mean, we just made sure that that would never just made sure that that would never just made sure that that would never happen again. happen again. happen again. Um and his his world got smaller, his Um and his his world got smaller, his Um and his his world got smaller, his life got quieter. life got quieter. life got quieter. Um Um >> [clears throat] >> and I you know, I consulted with a >> and I you know, I consulted with a >> and I you know, I consulted with a couple of people and Wynn was one of couple of people and Wynn was one of couple of people and Wynn was one of them and I just said, I don't I don't them and I just said, I don't I don't them and I just said, I don't I don't know what to do here.

know what to do here. know what to do here. Uh but because Wynn said, if you put Uh but because Wynn said, if you put Uh but because Wynn said, if you put this down, that is to put this letter this down, that is to put this letter this down, that is to put this letter down, down, down, I'll pick it up and I'll redress it in I'll pick it up and I'll redress it in I'll pick it up and I'll redress it in the biography. the biography. the biography. And because of my clarity that And because of my clarity that And because of my clarity that this wasn't my fight to fight this wasn't my fight to fight this wasn't my fight to fight and there may be some wisdom in a couple and there may be some wisdom in a couple and there may be some wisdom in a couple of years distance of years distance of years distance um and just kind of letting things quiet um and just kind of letting things quiet um and just kind of letting things quiet down and not adding more down and not adding more down and not adding more fuel to this fire fuel to this fire fuel to this fire um and just because of my great respect um and just because of my great respect um and just because of my great respect and trust of Wynn, um and trust of Wynn, um and trust of Wynn, um I I felt like, well, that's I think I I felt like, well, that's I think I I felt like, well, that's I think that's the way to do this. that's the way to do this. that's the way to do this. So, as you saw, he So, as you saw, he So, as you saw, he um he picked it up and addressed it, I um he picked it up and addressed it, I um he picked it up and addressed it, I thought, beautifully and honestly. thought, beautifully and honestly. thought, beautifully and honestly. Um Um Um >> Well, with with details that never made >> Well, with with details that never made >> Well, with with details that never made the story back in 2017, too. the story back in 2017, too. the story back in 2017, too. >> Right. Right. There's >> Right. Right. There's >> Right. Right. There's And you know, for the most part, people And you know, for the most part, people And you know, for the most part, people gave Eugene the benefit of the doubt. gave Eugene the benefit of the doubt. gave Eugene the benefit of the doubt. >> You'd have to. Yeah. >> You'd have to. Yeah. >> You'd have to. Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um but it was a very unfortunate way to end but it was a very unfortunate way to end but it was a very unfortunate way to end a public career.

a public career. a public career. And uh And uh And uh and that's why he he he continued to and that's why he he he continued to and that's why he he he continued to talk about it. He brought it up. talk about it. He brought it up. talk about it. He brought it up. Kept talking about this person, you Kept talking about this person, you Kept talking about this person, you know, he he would name the person and know, he he would name the person and know, he he would name the person and and it was clear that it was a and it was clear that it was a and it was clear that it was a devastating experience. devastating experience. devastating experience. >> I felt I felt so terrible and angry. >> I felt I felt so terrible and angry. >> I felt I felt so terrible and angry. And uh And uh And uh you know, I as I said, your your dad and you know, I as I said, your your dad and you know, I as I said, your your dad and mom wrote me a beautiful handwritten mom wrote me a beautiful handwritten mom wrote me a beautiful handwritten note note note just thanking me for the conversation just thanking me for the conversation just thanking me for the conversation and sticking to the questions and and sticking to the questions and and sticking to the questions and I think there's a lot to be learned for I think there's a lot to be learned for I think there's a lot to be learned for those of us who do what what I do, what those of us who do what what I do, what those of us who do what what I do, what we do we do we do about um questions to ask and questions about um questions to ask and questions about um questions to ask and questions not to ask and particularly of of of of not to ask and particularly of of of of not to ask and particularly of of of of conditions and I think at the end of the conditions and I think at the end of the conditions and I think at the end of the day it's a it's a tiny little footnote day it's a it's a tiny little footnote day it's a it's a tiny little footnote on an incredible life. But it's a shame on an incredible life. But it's a shame on an incredible life. But it's a shame that there's that footnote at all cuz that there's that footnote at all cuz that there's that footnote at all cuz your dad wasn't in a place your dad wasn't in a place your dad wasn't in a place >> footnote, it's the it's the one that >> footnote, it's the it's the one that >> footnote, it's the it's the one that gets remembered. gets remembered. gets remembered. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Um Um Eric, you built the casket Eric, you built the casket Eric, you built the casket for your dad. for your dad. for your dad. Very simple Very simple Very simple pine box casket. I don't know if it's pine box casket. I don't know if it's pine box casket. I don't know if it's pine or not, but wood casket that that pine or not, but wood casket that that pine or not, but wood casket that that you milled. you milled. you milled. And shortly after your dad died, within And shortly after your dad died, within And shortly after your dad died, within a year, you were burying your mom as a year, you were burying your mom as a year, you were burying your mom as well. well. well. Uh I want you to talk about Uh I want you to talk about Uh I want you to talk about what it was like losing both of your what it was like losing both of your what it was like losing both of your parents so quickly. parents so quickly. parents so quickly. Um coming to terms with that loss and Um coming to terms with that loss and Um coming to terms with that loss and and the legacy that you will remember, and the legacy that you will remember, and the legacy that you will remember, the endearing legacy that you remember the endearing legacy that you remember the endearing legacy that you remember as their son. >> There's a whole lot there. >> There's a whole lot there. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole other >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole other >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole other interview. interview. interview. >> When we saw the decline >> When we saw the decline >> When we saw the decline um beginning to happen, I called a um beginning to happen, I called a um beginning to happen, I called a family meeting, got my sibs together. We family meeting, got my sibs together. We family meeting, got my sibs together. We spent two days in Montana. spent two days in Montana. spent two days in Montana. >> Yeah. Was it Alzheimer's or dementia >> Yeah. Was it Alzheimer's or dementia >> Yeah. Was it Alzheimer's or dementia with your dad? with your dad? with your dad? >> It was a vascular-related to >> It was a vascular-related to >> It was a vascular-related to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Um there were a few other things going >> Um there were a few other things going >> Um there were a few other things going on, but that's what was on, but that's what was on, but that's what was um um um that's that's really ultimately what um that's that's really ultimately what um that's that's really ultimately what um what compromised him. It was an what compromised him. It was an what compromised him. It was an infection that eventually infection that eventually infection that eventually uh shut his body down.

uh shut his body down. uh shut his body down. Um but he just couldn't fight. Um but he just couldn't fight. Um but he just couldn't fight. And for my mother, it was a glioblastoma And for my mother, it was a glioblastoma And for my mother, it was a glioblastoma brain tumor. brain tumor. brain tumor. Um Um Um so for both of them, they had these so for both of them, they had these so for both of them, they had these end-of-life conditions that compromised end-of-life conditions that compromised end-of-life conditions that compromised them. I mean, they they were dying in them. I mean, they they were dying in them. I mean, they they were dying in before our eyes. before our eyes. before our eyes. And there's a real And there's a real And there's a real I mean, it's always a mix, right? It's I mean, it's always a mix, right? It's I mean, it's always a mix, right? It's on the one hand, it's um it's a gift to on the one hand, it's um it's a gift to on the one hand, it's um it's a gift to have the heads-up and to be able to take have the heads-up and to be able to take have the heads-up and to be able to take care of them care of them care of them and to say goodbye and to say goodbye and to say goodbye and to be there. We were I was and to be there. We were I was and to be there. We were I was privileged to be with them at their privileged to be with them at their privileged to be with them at their bedside at the moment they died. bedside at the moment they died. bedside at the moment they died. And that's that's a rare and holy gift. And that's that's a rare and holy gift. And that's that's a rare and holy gift. Um on the other hand, you know, the sudden on the other hand, you know, the sudden death is sometimes simpler um death is sometimes simpler um death is sometimes simpler um but because of their condition, I think but because of their condition, I think but because of their condition, I think we were I was at least prepared to let we were I was at least prepared to let we were I was at least prepared to let them go. them go. them go. Uh they were Uh they were Uh they were clearly their bodies were clearly saying clearly their bodies were clearly saying clearly their bodies were clearly saying I'm giving up the ghost. And that I'm giving up the ghost. And that I'm giving up the ghost. And that longish goodbye longish goodbye longish goodbye in my in my estimation is um in my in my estimation is um in my in my estimation is um is is is it it's a gift uh for in terms of it it's a gift uh for in terms of it it's a gift uh for in terms of closure.

closure. closure. So, it was a relief at the moment when So, it was a relief at the moment when So, it was a relief at the moment when they gave their last breath. they gave their last breath. they gave their last breath. Um Um Um and and and um um um and building his casket, building her and building his casket, building her and building his casket, building her urn, she was uh she was cremated and I urn, she was uh she was cremated and I urn, she was uh she was cremated and I built uh the urn built uh the urn built uh the urn uh for her remains. uh for her remains. uh for her remains. Um that was I kind of felt like one one Um that was I kind of felt like one one Um that was I kind of felt like one one just what not the but one of the final just what not the but one of the final just what not the but one of the final gifts to be able to give them. Like I'm gifts to be able to give them. Like I'm gifts to be able to give them. Like I'm going to going to going to I'm going to hold you. I'm going to um I'm going to hold you. I'm going to um I'm going to hold you. I'm going to um I'm going to bury you, you know, and I I'm going to bury you, you know, and I I'm going to bury you, you know, and I do this last thing. It's not a stranger do this last thing. It's not a stranger do this last thing. It's not a stranger that does this intimate detail part of that does this intimate detail part of that does this intimate detail part of your life. It's your life. It's your life. It's it's your son uh because you asked me to it's your son uh because you asked me to it's your son uh because you asked me to do it. Um do it. Um do it. Um He uh He uh He uh when I when we had that family meeting when I when we had that family meeting when I when we had that family meeting and I asked him some of those details and I asked him some of those details and I asked him some of those details like how do you want this part to go? like how do you want this part to go? like how do you want this part to go? And uh that was one of the questions. Is And uh that was one of the questions. Is And uh that was one of the questions. Is it memorial service or funeral? Is it it memorial service or funeral? Is it it memorial service or funeral? Is it body or body or body or cremation? And he said cremation? And he said cremation? And he said he said funeral. I want the full meal he said funeral. I want the full meal he said funeral. I want the full meal deal.

deal. deal. Um Um Um so just to be able to honor their wishes so just to be able to honor their wishes so just to be able to honor their wishes like that at the end to conduct their like that at the end to conduct their like that at the end to conduct their services. services. services. Um and and it was at that family meeting. and and it was at that family meeting. This was a couple of years before they This was a couple of years before they This was a couple of years before they died. died. died. Uh Uh Uh I had my legal pad and was asking all I had my legal pad and was asking all I had my legal pad and was asking all the questions and taking notes and the questions and taking notes and the questions and taking notes and and one of the questions I asked was um and one of the questions I asked was um and one of the questions I asked was um how how do you want us to be thinking how how do you want us to be thinking how how do you want us to be thinking about your legacy? about your legacy? about your legacy? And he And he And he after his pause, uh which was customary, after his pause, uh which was customary, after his pause, uh which was customary, he said, "You know, until you asked the he said, "You know, until you asked the he said, "You know, until you asked the question, I don't know that I've ever question, I don't know that I've ever question, I don't know that I've ever thought about that." thought about that." thought about that." And um so we just went on to the next And um so we just went on to the next And um so we just went on to the next topic. But the next morning as we were topic. But the next morning as we were topic. But the next morning as we were sort of shuffling around the kitchen sort of shuffling around the kitchen sort of shuffling around the kitchen getting breakfast, he said, "You know, getting breakfast, he said, "You know, getting breakfast, he said, "You know, I've been thinking about that question I've been thinking about that question I've been thinking about that question about legacy. And I I think I've got an about legacy. And I I think I've got an about legacy. And I I think I've got an answer." And so I went over to the table answer." And so I went over to the table answer." And so I went over to the table and I grabbed my legal pad because I was and I grabbed my legal pad because I was and I grabbed my legal pad because I was going to write this down and he said, going to write this down and he said, going to write this down and he said, "You're my legacy."

And I think that's right. And I think that's right. Um at first it felt like heavy like, "Oh Um at first it felt like heavy like, "Oh Um at first it felt like heavy like, "Oh no, I don't want to do that. I'm not You no, I don't want to do that. I'm not You no, I don't want to do that. I'm not You know, my middle name's Eugene, but I'm know, my middle name's Eugene, but I'm know, my middle name's Eugene, but I'm not Eugene Peterson. not Eugene Peterson. not Eugene Peterson. I'm Eric Eugene." I'm Eric Eugene." I'm Eric Eugene." Um but Um but Um but to be to be to be to be a part of his legacy to be a part of his legacy to be a part of his legacy uh, I mean, everyone can do this. uh, I mean, everyone can do this. uh, I mean, everyone can do this. Uh, Uh, Uh, because you just have to live your own because you just have to live your own because you just have to live your own life with authenticity. You have to be life with authenticity. You have to be life with authenticity. You have to be yourself. yourself. yourself. Well, that's what it means to live a Well, that's what it means to live a Well, that's what it means to live a Eugene Peterson legacy is you Eugene Peterson legacy is you Eugene Peterson legacy is you you you you you follow the your identity as a you follow the your identity as a you follow the your identity as a beloved child of God beloved child of God beloved child of God and you live into that purpose as you and you live into that purpose as you and you live into that purpose as you fumble and struggle your way through and fumble and struggle your way through and fumble and struggle your way through and discerning what that means. What a discerning what that means. What a discerning what that means. What a vocational vocational vocational um, what that just, you know, what that um, what that just, you know, what that um, what that just, you know, what that unique call and claim on your life is. unique call and claim on your life is. unique call and claim on your life is. That's what it means to live That's what it means to live That's what it means to live um, his legacy. And I think I guess I um, his legacy. And I think I guess I um, his legacy. And I think I guess I guess one of the things that sort of guess one of the things that sort of guess one of the things that sort of surprised me is I learned that I can surprised me is I learned that I can surprised me is I learned that I can honor my parents no less in death than I honor my parents no less in death than I honor my parents no less in death than I can in life.

can in life. can in life. Um, Um, Um, and part of that is just living my life, and part of that is just living my life, and part of that is just living my life, you know, generously and loving people you know, generously and loving people you know, generously and loving people well well well and trying to be a person of grace and and trying to be a person of grace and and trying to be a person of grace and truth is the things that they were. It truth is the things that they were. It truth is the things that they were. It was a part of them. was a part of them. was a part of them. Um, so I I think about them Um, so I I think about them Um, so I I think about them I think I think about them every single I think I think about them every single I think I think about them every single day. day. day. I have a little ritual when I get I have a little ritual when I get I have a little ritual when I get dressed in the morning when I put my dressed in the morning when I put my dressed in the morning when I put my uh, when I get my car keys and things, uh, when I get my car keys and things, uh, when I get my car keys and things, I've got this little pocket knife that I I've got this little pocket knife that I I've got this little pocket knife that I gave him gave him gave him on Father's Day 100 years ago and I on Father's Day 100 years ago and I on Father's Day 100 years ago and I jacked it after he died with my jacked it after he died with my jacked it after he died with my siblings' permission. I've And uh, so siblings' permission. I've And uh, so siblings' permission. I've And uh, so when I put that in my I put that in my when I put that in my I put that in my when I put that in my I put that in my pocket every morning. pocket every morning. pocket every morning. And I just say it out loud, "I'm And I just say it out loud, "I'm And I just say it out loud, "I'm carrying you with me, Dad." carrying you with me, Dad." carrying you with me, Dad." And it's just this little, you know, And it's just this little, you know, And it's just this little, you know, physical, tangible reminder that I'm physical, tangible reminder that I'm physical, tangible reminder that I'm carrying Eugene with me. He's with me. carrying Eugene with me. He's with me. carrying Eugene with me. He's with me. And I think he and my mother are praying And I think he and my mother are praying And I think he and my mother are praying for me. for me. for me. Um, Um, Um, I think they're I'm I feel like he is I think they're I'm I feel like he is I think they're I'm I feel like he is sort of my bishop. He's still overseeing sort of my bishop. He's still overseeing sort of my bishop. He's still overseeing my life and ministry.

>> That's really powerful. >> That's really powerful. Really profound and a different way of Really profound and a different way of Really profound and a different way of thinking about legacy. You know, my thinking about legacy. You know, my thinking about legacy. You know, my dad's 83. He just had his birthday this dad's 83. He just had his birthday this dad's 83. He just had his birthday this week. And when my oldest son was in town week. And when my oldest son was in town week. And when my oldest son was in town last, he said, last, he said, last, he said, "You know, I think our family has a "You know, I think our family has a "You know, I think our family has a legacy of love and it started with legacy of love and it started with legacy of love and it started with Grandpa Newhof." And I'm like, "Oh, Al." Grandpa Newhof." And I'm like, "Oh, Al." Grandpa Newhof." And I'm like, "Oh, Al." Like, Like, Like, that is a legacy that transcends that is a legacy that transcends that is a legacy that transcends generations and life and death and generations and life and death and generations and life and death and when when when when you think about legacy for Eugene when you think about legacy for Eugene when you think about legacy for Eugene and and Jan, what and and Jan, what and and Jan, what what metaphor, image, what metaphor, image, what metaphor, image, teaching, truth comes to life for you? >> I think of um the people I've got to >> I think of um the people I've got to know. I know. I know. I One of my very favorite joys, unexpected One of my very favorite joys, unexpected One of my very favorite joys, unexpected in writing, getting a chance to write in writing, getting a chance to write in writing, getting a chance to write Eugene's story, was Eugene's story, was Eugene's story, was the vast array of wonderful people I got the vast array of wonderful people I got the vast array of wonderful people I got to meet. And I remember thinking about to meet. And I remember thinking about to meet. And I remember thinking about halfway through like, "Wow. halfway through like, "Wow. halfway through like, "Wow. No wonder their life was so rich. I No wonder their life was so rich. I No wonder their life was so rich. I mean, this is just such good people and mean, this is just such good people and mean, this is just such good people and I have I have I have deep, genuine friends now that I didn't deep, genuine friends now that I didn't deep, genuine friends now that I didn't have before. And Eric is like a brother have before. And Eric is like a brother have before. And Eric is like a brother to me now and I to me now and I to me now and I I'd never met Eric.

I'd never met Eric. I'd never met Eric. Um Um Um >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, I think of all of these people I think of all of these people I think of all of these people who in each of their own ways um would who in each of their own ways um would who in each of their own ways um would say, say, say, "I "I "I I knew Eugene and Jan and they knew me." I knew Eugene and Jan and they knew me." I knew Eugene and Jan and they knew me." And there's something about that And there's something about that And there's something about that depth of um offering your life to depth of um offering your life to depth of um offering your life to another person, another person, another person, caring for another person, caring for another person, caring for another person, um which I think transcends um which I think transcends um which I think transcends a lot of the things you write, a lot of a lot of the things you write, a lot of a lot of the things you write, a lot of the things you say. the things you say. the things you say. And And And I think the other thing is um I think the other thing is um I think the other thing is um I keep thinking I should be able to I keep thinking I should be able to I keep thinking I should be able to articulate this in a more articulate this in a more articulate this in a more interesting way or something, but it's interesting way or something, but it's interesting way or something, but it's it's this it's this it's this very simple thing very simple thing very simple thing um um um that that that uh God is at the true center uh God is at the true center uh God is at the true center of all that is good and beautiful. And I of all that is good and beautiful. And I of all that is good and beautiful. And I feel like feel like feel like Eugene just stood in the middle of this Eugene just stood in the middle of this Eugene just stood in the middle of this world over and over again in the midst world over and over again in the midst world over and over again in the midst of pastoral chaos and of pastoral chaos and of pastoral chaos and cultural cultural cultural um um um uh uh uh demise and um demise and um demise and um immense questions and immense questions and immense questions and and uh the befuddlement of so many of us and uh the befuddlement of so many of us and uh the befuddlement of so many of us and just stood there with joy and that and just stood there with joy and that and just stood there with joy and that radiant smile and that raspy voice radiant smile and that raspy voice radiant smile and that raspy voice and was not very clever and just spoke and was not very clever and just spoke and was not very clever and just spoke God's name into the middle of this God's name into the middle of this God's name into the middle of this world.

world. world. And I And I And I I think that's his true legacy. I think that's his true legacy. I think that's his true legacy. >> Well, that is beautiful beautiful place >> Well, that is beautiful beautiful place >> Well, that is beautiful beautiful place to close this. I want to thank you. to close this. I want to thank you. to close this. I want to thank you. You've been so generous with your You've been so generous with your You've been so generous with your insights and your time. The author's insights and your time. The author's insights and your time. The author's biography is a burning in my bones. biography is a burning in my bones. biography is a burning in my bones. And uh And uh And uh Eric, so appreciated your book letter to Eric, so appreciated your book letter to Eric, so appreciated your book letter to a young pastor. And obviously Eugene 35 a young pastor. And obviously Eugene 35 a young pastor. And obviously Eugene 35 books, I think is where maybe 36, 37. It books, I think is where maybe 36, 37. It books, I think is where maybe 36, 37. It was a lot. And uh and the message was a lot. And uh and the message was a lot. And uh and the message translation of course. We'll link to translation of course. We'll link to translation of course. We'll link to everything in the show notes. If people everything in the show notes. If people everything in the show notes. If people want to follow either of you online, is want to follow either of you online, is want to follow either of you online, is there an easy place to connect with what there an easy place to connect with what there an easy place to connect with what you're doing these days? you're doing these days? you're doing these days? Social or otherwise? Social or otherwise? Social or otherwise? >> Not for me. >> Not for me. >> Not for me. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Keeping on the you are his legacy. There >> Keeping on the you are his legacy. There >> Keeping on the you are his legacy. There you go. There you go, Eric. Uh that's you go. There you go, Eric. Uh that's you go. There you go, Eric. Uh that's beautiful. Yeah, how about you, Winn? beautiful. Yeah, how about you, Winn? beautiful. Yeah, how about you, Winn? >> petersoncenter.org. >> petersoncenter.org. >> petersoncenter.org. If people want to know more about the If people want to know more about the If people want to know more about the the Peterson Center and how we're trying the Peterson Center and how we're trying the Peterson Center and how we're trying to continue the conversation that that to continue the conversation that that to continue the conversation that that Eugene was having.

Eugene was having. Eugene was having. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great. I want to thank you so so much for this. I want to thank you so so much for this. I want to thank you so so much for this. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> You're welcome. Thank you. Well, I hope >> You're welcome. Thank you. Well, I hope >> You're welcome. Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. That's the end of our you enjoyed that. That's the end of our you enjoyed that. That's the end of our little excursion called Required little excursion called Required little excursion called Required Listening. Please give me some feedback. Listening. Please give me some feedback. Listening. Please give me some feedback. You can email me at You can email me at You can email me at [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] or leave a comment wherever you're or leave a comment wherever you're or leave a comment wherever you're watching or listening. We will read them watching or listening. We will read them watching or listening. We will read them all. We try to get back to as many as all. We try to get back to as many as all. We try to get back to as many as possible, but there's a lot of you. So, possible, but there's a lot of you. So, possible, but there's a lot of you. So, I hope you enjoyed those I hope you enjoyed those I hope you enjoyed those meaningful conversations. At least they meaningful conversations. At least they meaningful conversations. At least they were meaningful to me. Back to our were meaningful to me. Back to our were meaningful to me. Back to our regularly scheduled programming with regularly scheduled programming with regularly scheduled programming with Tyler Staton, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Tyler Staton, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Tyler Staton, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Eric Geiger, Charlie Dates, all coming Eric Geiger, Charlie Dates, all coming Eric Geiger, Charlie Dates, all coming up. If this conversation was helpful, up. If this conversation was helpful, up. If this conversation was helpful, well, first you can get the show notes well, first you can get the show notes well, first you can get the show notes by joining the Art of Leadership by joining the Art of Leadership by joining the Art of Leadership Academy. You can go to the Art of Academy. You can go to the Art of Academy. You can go to the Art of Leadership Academy.com, join over 22,000 Leadership Academy.com, join over 22,000 Leadership Academy.com, join over 22,000 other leaders. That's where we share other leaders. That's where we share other leaders. That's where we share these episodes and where you'll find the these episodes and where you'll find the these episodes and where you'll find the show notes. You can also leave a review show notes. You can also leave a review show notes. You can also leave a review or comment wherever you're watching or or comment wherever you're watching or or comment wherever you're watching or listening. If you hit follow or listening. If you hit follow or listening. If you hit follow or subscribe, that means a lot. Don't subscribe, that means a lot. Don't subscribe, that means a lot. Don't forget to share it with a friend, and I forget to share it with a friend, and I forget to share it with a friend, and I hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you identify and break a personal growth identify and break a personal growth identify and break a personal growth barrier you're facing.