The Pressure of Being First: Nicole Martin on Leading Christianity Today

Wait, sorry. I'm I'm new to this. You Wait, sorry. I'm I'm new to this. You said Billy Graham's father-in-law was said Billy Graham's father-in-law was said Billy Graham's father-in-law was pro-segregation. pro-segregation. pro-segregation. >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> L. Nelson Bell. He was a very >> L. Nelson Bell. He was a very >> L. Nelson Bell. He was a very prominent missionary throughout China. prominent missionary throughout China. prominent missionary throughout China. Ruth was his daughter and Ruth was his daughter and Ruth was his daughter and you know, even though he was deeply you know, even though he was deeply you know, even though he was deeply immersed in Chinese culture and did immersed in Chinese culture and did immersed in Chinese culture and did great things during his missionary great things during his missionary great things during his missionary career, he also very much felt like the career, he also very much felt like the career, he also very much felt like the the the forced integration of races was the the forced integration of races was the the forced integration of races was not the choice that Christians should not the choice that Christians should not the choice that Christians should make. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof make. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof make. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. We've got Nicole Martin joined us today. We've got Nicole Martin joined us today. We've got Nicole Martin on the podcast. on the podcast. on the podcast. And boy, we're going to talk about why And boy, we're going to talk about why And boy, we're going to talk about why leadership is designed to kill you. leadership is designed to kill you. leadership is designed to kill you. We're going to talk about business We're going to talk about business We're going to talk about business models. She just took over as the new models. She just took over as the new models. She just took over as the new editor of Christianity today. Is there editor of Christianity today. Is there editor of Christianity today. Is there even a place for middle-of-the-road even a place for middle-of-the-road even a place for middle-of-the-road leaders and [music] like, you know, leaders and [music] like, you know, leaders and [music] like, you know, balanced theological thinking? Has the balanced theological thinking? Has the balanced theological thinking? Has the middle completely disappeared and now middle completely disappeared and now middle completely disappeared and now the dialogue is just all extremes.

the dialogue is just all extremes. the dialogue is just all extremes. [music] How do you actually take a [music] How do you actually take a [music] How do you actually take a legacy ministry and make it financially legacy ministry and make it financially legacy ministry and make it financially viable today? And what you need to kill viable today? And what you need to kill viable today? And what you need to kill in your leadership. I think this is in your leadership. I think this is in your leadership. I think this is going to be a really good conversation. going to be a really good conversation. going to be a really good conversation. [music] [music] [music] Really glad that you joined us. We try Really glad that you joined us. We try Really glad that you joined us. We try to bring you the best conversations we to bring you the best conversations we to bring you the best conversations we possibly can. Guests you know, guests possibly can. Guests you know, guests possibly can. Guests you know, guests you don't know. And the way we do that you don't know. And the way we do that you don't know. And the way we do that is we just have long form conversations is we just have long form conversations is we just have long form conversations every single episode on this podcast. every single episode on this podcast. every single episode on this podcast. So, really glad if you're joining us for So, really glad if you're joining us for So, really glad if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. If you're the first time, welcome. If you're the first time, welcome. If you're returning listener, I talked to a lot of returning listener, I talked to a lot of returning listener, I talked to a lot of you who say, "Hey man, I was there for you who say, "Hey man, I was there for you who say, "Hey man, I was there for episode one." Really glad you are. This episode one." Really glad you are. This episode one." Really glad you are. This is the remote studio. I am on the road. is the remote studio. I am on the road. is the remote studio. I am on the road. We do this podcast in season and out of We do this podcast in season and out of We do this podcast in season and out of season. And speaking of seasons, we're season. And speaking of seasons, we're season. And speaking of seasons, we're into one of my favorite seasons now, into one of my favorite seasons now, into one of my favorite seasons now, spring flowing into summer. Out on the spring flowing into summer. Out on the spring flowing into summer. Out on the bike, out in the yard, everything's bike, out in the yard, everything's bike, out in the yard, everything's green and beautiful and it's wonderful. green and beautiful and it's wonderful. green and beautiful and it's wonderful. So, wherever you're listening to this So, wherever you're listening to this So, wherever you're listening to this podcast or watching it, really glad to podcast or watching it, really glad to podcast or watching it, really glad to meet you where you are. Reverend Dr. meet you where you are. Reverend Dr. meet you where you are. Reverend Dr. Nicole Massey Martin holds degrees from Nicole Massey Martin holds degrees from Nicole Massey Martin holds degrees from Vanderbilt University, Princeton Vanderbilt University, Princeton Vanderbilt University, Princeton Theological Seminary, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. She is the Theological Seminary. She is the Theological Seminary. She is the president and CEO of Christianity Today president and CEO of Christianity Today president and CEO of Christianity Today and founder and executive director of and founder and executive director of and founder and executive director of SoulFire Ministries. She is an SoulFire Ministries. She is an SoulFire Ministries. She is an accomplished writer and author of three accomplished writer and author of three accomplished writer and author of three books including Nailing It, which we books including Nailing It, which we books including Nailing It, which we talked about briefly on this podcast.

talked about briefly on this podcast. talked about briefly on this podcast. And yeah, we talked about becoming a And yeah, we talked about becoming a And yeah, we talked about becoming a female CEO of a legacy organization female CEO of a legacy organization female CEO of a legacy organization started by Billy Graham and a whole lot started by Billy Graham and a whole lot started by Billy Graham and a whole lot more. And now to my conversation with more. And now to my conversation with more. And now to my conversation with Nicole Martin. Nicole, I'm so glad to Nicole Martin. Nicole, I'm so glad to Nicole Martin. Nicole, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. It's been a have you on the podcast. It's been a have you on the podcast. It's been a long time coming. long time coming. long time coming. Yes, thank you so much, Carey. It's Yes, thank you so much, Carey. It's Yes, thank you so much, Carey. It's great to be here. great to be here. great to be here. Yeah. It's It's a whole new season for Yeah. It's It's a whole new season for Yeah. It's It's a whole new season for you. President and CEO of Christianity you. President and CEO of Christianity you. President and CEO of Christianity Today. Wow. We were chatting about that. Today. Wow. We were chatting about that. Today. Wow. We were chatting about that. We bumped into each other at an event We bumped into each other at an event We bumped into each other at an event and um and um and um not exactly a cakewalk to take on a not exactly a cakewalk to take on a not exactly a cakewalk to take on a position [laughter] like that today, is position [laughter] like that today, is position [laughter] like that today, is it? Like what What what were you it? Like what What what were you it? Like what What what were you thing and what happened? thing and what happened? thing and what happened? >> Big question. >> Big question. >> Big question. What was I expecting? Um well, I think I What was I expecting? Um well, I think I What was I expecting? Um well, I think I think whenever you take on a new think whenever you take on a new think whenever you take on a new uh calling for leadership, you expect a uh calling for leadership, you expect a uh calling for leadership, you expect a little bit of what has been. You expect little bit of what has been. You expect little bit of what has been. You expect that God has prepared you for this, that that God has prepared you for this, that that God has prepared you for this, that you've had experiences thus far that you've had experiences thus far that you've had experiences thus far that have prepared you for the moment. You have prepared you for the moment. You have prepared you for the moment. You expect that you are equipped at least to expect that you are equipped at least to expect that you are equipped at least to assess the land, if not to take on the assess the land, if not to take on the assess the land, if not to take on the challenges.

challenges. challenges. Um and and you kind of expect, Um and and you kind of expect, Um and and you kind of expect, especially when you have been in the especially when you have been in the especially when you have been in the organization as I was, um you expect organization as I was, um you expect organization as I was, um you expect that there's a little bit that you don't that there's a little bit that you don't that there's a little bit that you don't have to do because you already quote have to do because you already quote have to do because you already quote know the organization. know the organization. know the organization. What is true What is true What is true is it does not matter how long you have is it does not matter how long you have is it does not matter how long you have served in that organization or in how served in that organization or in how served in that organization or in how many roles. You have never served as the many roles. You have never served as the many roles. You have never served as the CEO before. And it does not matter CEO before. And it does not matter CEO before. And it does not matter again. You can be the most highly again. You can be the most highly again. You can be the most highly qualified COO. I felt like a highly qualified COO. I felt like a highly qualified COO. I felt like a highly qualified COO. But when you step into qualified COO. But when you step into qualified COO. But when you step into the seat of CEO, there are different the seat of CEO, there are different the seat of CEO, there are different skill sets required. You see the skill sets required. You see the skill sets required. You see the landscape differently, and you feel the landscape differently, and you feel the landscape differently, and you feel the headwinds in a way that is stronger than headwinds in a way that is stronger than headwinds in a way that is stronger than it's ever been felt in I think any other it's ever been felt in I think any other it's ever been felt in I think any other seat in the organization. seat in the organization. seat in the organization. So, it's been It's been a joy. So, it's been It's been a joy. So, it's been It's been a joy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Had you sat in the senior role before in >> Had you sat in the senior role before in >> Had you sat in the senior role before in any other organization? any other organization? any other organization? No, I started my own nonprofit about 20 No, I started my own nonprofit about 20 No, I started my own nonprofit about 20 years ago. Um it's small and years ago. Um it's small and years ago. Um it's small and inspirational, and we do some consulting inspirational, and we do some consulting inspirational, and we do some consulting work. Um but, I knew that leading a work. Um but, I knew that leading a work. Um but, I knew that leading a pre-existing institution was going to be pre-existing institution was going to be pre-existing institution was going to be a different thing. And And, you know, to a different thing. And And, you know, to a different thing. And And, you know, to be totally honest, even in the interview be totally honest, even in the interview be totally honest, even in the interview process, I remember praying and saying, process, I remember praying and saying, process, I remember praying and saying, "God, I can only do this if you do it "God, I can only do this if you do it "God, I can only do this if you do it for me." I had my own kind of divine for me." I had my own kind of divine for me." I had my own kind of divine Barack moment where, you know, Deborah Barack moment where, you know, Deborah Barack moment where, you know, Deborah says to Barack, "God is calling you to says to Barack, "God is calling you to says to Barack, "God is calling you to take over Sisera and his army." And he take over Sisera and his army." And he take over Sisera and his army." And he says, "Well, I'll only go if you go with

says, "Well, I'll only go if you go with says, "Well, I'll only go if you go with me." I feel like I had that moment with me." I feel like I had that moment with me." I feel like I had that moment with God where I said, "I will only do this God where I said, "I will only do this God where I said, "I will only do this if you go with me." So, the assurances if you go with me." So, the assurances if you go with me." So, the assurances that I was looking for was the assurance that I was looking for was the assurance that I was looking for was the assurance of his presence. God, are you going with of his presence. God, are you going with of his presence. God, are you going with me? Because if you don't do this job, it me? Because if you don't do this job, it me? Because if you don't do this job, it won't be done. If you don't lead the won't be done. If you don't lead the won't be done. If you don't lead the way, I can't go. And that has been way, I can't go. And that has been way, I can't go. And that has been probably the one comfort I've had among probably the one comfort I've had among probably the one comfort I've had among others, but that the primary comfort others, but that the primary comfort others, but that the primary comfort that I've had in this role. that I've had in this role. that I've had in this role. Well, it's I'm I'm glad you sort of Well, it's I'm I'm glad you sort of Well, it's I'm I'm glad you sort of started there because we have so many started there because we have so many started there because we have so many younger leaders who are now stepping younger leaders who are now stepping younger leaders who are now stepping into senior leadership. It could be an into senior leadership. It could be an into senior leadership. It could be an XP role. A lot of them, you know, as XP role. A lot of them, you know, as XP role. A lot of them, you know, as boomers step back, they're they're boomers step back, they're they're boomers step back, they're they're taking on a senior pastor role or a CEO taking on a senior pastor role or a CEO taking on a senior pastor role or a CEO role, as you did. role, as you did. role, as you did. And what I've heard, I remember Jeannie And what I've heard, I remember Jeannie And what I've heard, I remember Jeannie Stevens talking about this, my successor Stevens talking about this, my successor Stevens talking about this, my successor Jeff Brodie talking about it. I remember Jeff Brodie talking about it. I remember Jeff Brodie talking about it. I remember when I stepped out of the lead pastor when I stepped out of the lead pastor when I stepped out of the lead pastor role after 20 years in leadership, role after 20 years in leadership, role after 20 years in leadership, it I I was busy working on a book, it I I was busy working on a book, it I I was busy working on a book, speaking. Like, I had a jammed week, but speaking. Like, I had a jammed week, but speaking. Like, I had a jammed week, but I felt like I was on vacation. And I felt like I was on vacation. And I felt like I was on vacation. And it's like the way to leadership. Genie it's like the way to leadership. Genie it's like the way to leadership. Genie Stevens, when she took over a church, Stevens, when she took over a church, Stevens, when she took over a church, wrote a letter to her previous bosses wrote a letter to her previous bosses wrote a letter to her previous bosses apologizing for her critical attitude apologizing for her critical attitude apologizing for her critical attitude toward them toward them toward them >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> because she's like, oh, now I get it. I >> because she's like, oh, now I get it. I >> because she's like, oh, now I get it. I get it. And Jeff Brodie is like, you get it. And Jeff Brodie is like, you get it. And Jeff Brodie is like, you used to do like really weird things.

used to do like really weird things. used to do like really weird things. Like you would have a charger in your Like you would have a charger in your Like you would have a charger in your office, a charger in your travel bag, office, a charger in your travel bag, office, a charger in your travel bag, [laughter] and a charger at home. And he [laughter] and a charger at home. And he [laughter] and a charger at home. And he just looked at that and said, so just looked at that and said, so just looked at that and said, so wasteful. Why is Carey so wasteful? wasteful. Why is Carey so wasteful? wasteful. Why is Carey so wasteful? And then he's a month in the job, he And then he's a month in the job, he And then he's a month in the job, he ordered a a charger for the office, a ordered a a charger for the office, a ordered a a charger for the office, a charger for his travel bag, and a charger for his travel bag, and a charger for his travel bag, and a charger because [laughter] like I got to charger because [laughter] like I got to charger because [laughter] like I got to focus on so much stuff that I need I I I focus on so much stuff that I need I I I focus on so much stuff that I need I I I I don't want to be thinking about did I I don't want to be thinking about did I I don't want to be thinking about did I leave my charger at home? And there's leave my charger at home? And there's leave my charger at home? And there's stuff that only makes sense when you stuff that only makes sense when you stuff that only makes sense when you feel the weight of senior leadership. I feel the weight of senior leadership. I feel the weight of senior leadership. I mean, that's a small example, but it's mean, that's a small example, but it's mean, that's a small example, but it's like you probably if you're not a senior like you probably if you're not a senior like you probably if you're not a senior leader, you think leader, you think leader, you think And maybe your senior leader is weird, And maybe your senior leader is weird, And maybe your senior leader is weird, and there's some weird parts of my and there's some weird parts of my and there's some weird parts of my personality, but like you you only know personality, but like you you only know personality, but like you you only know when you get there. So, what are some of when you get there. So, what are some of when you get there. So, what are some of the things that you're like, oh, now I the things that you're like, oh, now I the things that you're like, oh, now I get it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and you've been get it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and you've been get it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and you've been in the role for 6 months. Yeah, what are in the role for 6 months. Yeah, what are in the role for 6 months. Yeah, what are you you you >> When you were talking about the >> When you were talking about the >> When you were talking about the chargers, I was like, I know exactly chargers, I was like, I know exactly chargers, I was like, I know exactly what it The one thing I underestimated what it The one thing I underestimated what it The one thing I underestimated was the value of margin. I am a doer. was the value of margin. I am a doer. was the value of margin. I am a doer. I'm an achiever. I like my lists. I like I'm an achiever. I like my lists. I like I'm an achiever. I like my lists. I like to cross things off. I mean, I think to cross things off. I mean, I think to cross things off. I mean, I think arguably I am where I am because I've arguably I am where I am because I've arguably I am where I am because I've I've always tried to excel and to push I've always tried to excel and to push I've always tried to excel and to push and to do. Um it's not uncommon for me and to do. Um it's not uncommon for me and to do. Um it's not uncommon for me to meet all day and work all night. It's to meet all day and work all night. It's to meet all day and work all night. It's just it's part of I think a a style that just it's part of I think a a style that just it's part of I think a a style that I've adapted. But when I've gotten into I've adapted. But when I've gotten into I've adapted. But when I've gotten into this role, I recognize decision-making this role, I recognize decision-making this role, I recognize decision-making takes a whole lot more time, takes a whole lot more time, takes a whole lot more time, discernment, and prayer than I have ever discernment, and prayer than I have ever discernment, and prayer than I have ever imagined.

imagined. imagined. Um the creative process, the visioning Um the creative process, the visioning Um the creative process, the visioning process, takes a whole lot more time and process, takes a whole lot more time and process, takes a whole lot more time and space than I ever imagined. Um even the space than I ever imagined. Um even the space than I ever imagined. Um even the consequences of my actions, internally consequences of my actions, internally consequences of my actions, internally for the team and externally for our for the team and externally for our for the team and externally for our stakeholders, carry different weight. stakeholders, carry different weight. stakeholders, carry different weight. So, I So, I So, I I am learning I need more time to be I am learning I need more time to be I am learning I need more time to be still, to think, to dream, to problem still, to think, to dream, to problem still, to think, to dream, to problem solve, to pray than I have ever had solve, to pray than I have ever had solve, to pray than I have ever had before. So, the internal part of me before. So, the internal part of me before. So, the internal part of me that's the achiever and go, go, go has that's the achiever and go, go, go has that's the achiever and go, go, go has to learn a new skill set of be, be still to learn a new skill set of be, be still to learn a new skill set of be, be still because the consequences are higher now because the consequences are higher now because the consequences are higher now if I'm just constantly doing. Perfect if I'm just constantly doing. Perfect if I'm just constantly doing. Perfect example was This is probably about example was This is probably about example was This is probably about I mean, I've only been in this role for I mean, I've only been in this role for I mean, I've only been in this role for 4 months by the time of our interview. 4 months by the time of our interview. 4 months by the time of our interview. So, this is This is wet paint. Yeah. So, this is This is wet paint. Yeah. So, this is This is wet paint. Yeah. This is absolutely wet paint. This is absolutely wet paint. This is absolutely wet paint. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh see me in a year and see if I'm >> Uh see me in a year and see if I'm >> Uh see me in a year and see if I'm saying the same thing, but I remember it saying the same thing, but I remember it saying the same thing, but I remember it was January and um was January and um was January and um as COO, I had my hands in almost as COO, I had my hands in almost as COO, I had my hands in almost everything. I needed to. I needed to everything. I needed to. I needed to everything. I needed to. I needed to know where things were. I needed to see know where things were. I needed to see know where things were. I needed to see the health of the organization. I needed the health of the organization. I needed the health of the organization. I needed to know every number and understand to know every number and understand to know every number and understand every meeting. So, um I was working with every meeting. So, um I was working with every meeting. So, um I was working with one of the teams and I was like, "Yeah, one of the teams and I was like, "Yeah, one of the teams and I was like, "Yeah, I'll just I'll just come to your I'll just I'll just come to your I'll just I'll just come to your meeting." And then after the meeting, meeting." And then after the meeting, meeting." And then after the meeting, I'll make sure that you know, I'll make sure that you know, I'll make sure that you know, everybody's doing what they need and everybody's doing what they need and everybody's doing what they need and blah, blah, blah. And right before the blah, blah, blah. And right before the blah, blah, blah. And right before the meeting, the team, there was like two of meeting, the team, there was like two of meeting, the team, there was like two of them. They were like, "Hey, we love that them. They were like, "Hey, we love that them. They were like, "Hey, we love that you're so passionate about this. We love you're so passionate about this. We love you're so passionate about this. We love that you want to know what's happening that you want to know what's happening that you want to know what's happening and we really need you to delegate. And and we really need you to delegate. And and we really need you to delegate. And we we need you to trust us to do this.

we we need you to trust us to do this. we we need you to trust us to do this. And when you show up in the meeting, it And when you show up in the meeting, it And when you show up in the meeting, it now brings a different dynamic." now brings a different dynamic." now brings a different dynamic." And I never And I never And I never I was probably the first time that I I was probably the first time that I I was probably the first time that I recognized recognized recognized as CEO when I step in and get in the as CEO when I step in and get in the as CEO when I step in and get in the weeds, my meddling, my engaging, while weeds, my meddling, my engaging, while weeds, my meddling, my engaging, while necessary at sometimes, can also be a necessary at sometimes, can also be a necessary at sometimes, can also be a hindrance for a team I'm trying to hindrance for a team I'm trying to hindrance for a team I'm trying to empower and a team I'm trying to empower and a team I'm trying to empower and a team I'm trying to encourage. So, I had to learn to step encourage. So, I had to learn to step encourage. So, I had to learn to step back, to trust the team, and to realize back, to trust the team, and to realize back, to trust the team, and to realize that my role in this seat is not to do that my role in this seat is not to do that my role in this seat is not to do the work. It's to assess, to manage, to the work. It's to assess, to manage, to the work. It's to assess, to manage, to build, to encourage, to to tighten and build, to encourage, to to tighten and build, to encourage, to to tighten and to shape the work for a journey that is to shape the work for a journey that is to shape the work for a journey that is ahead that some can't even see right ahead that some can't even see right ahead that some can't even see right now, but maybe I can see. So, that's now, but maybe I can see. So, that's now, but maybe I can see. So, that's It's It's an adjustment for me that I It's It's an adjustment for me that I It's It's an adjustment for me that I think is happening real time. think is happening real time. think is happening real time. Well, it's an interesting dynamic and I Well, it's an interesting dynamic and I Well, it's an interesting dynamic and I hadn't quite thought about it through hadn't quite thought about it through hadn't quite thought about it through that framing, but if you think about that framing, but if you think about that framing, but if you think about every other even executive roles like every other even executive roles like every other even executive roles like COO. COO. COO. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a doing aspect to it. You're >> There's a doing aspect to it. You're >> There's a doing aspect to it. You're paid to do. You're paid to execute.

paid to do. You're paid to execute. paid to do. You're paid to execute. >> And now when you're in the senior seat, >> And now when you're in the senior seat, >> And now when you're in the senior seat, whether that's lead pastor, CEO, whether that's lead pastor, CEO, whether that's lead pastor, CEO, there's a leadership role that involves there's a leadership role that involves there's a leadership role that involves not doing. Oh, so hard. It's It's hard not doing. Oh, so hard. It's It's hard not doing. Oh, so hard. It's It's hard when you're wired like a rabbit to get when you're wired like a rabbit to get when you're wired like a rabbit to get in there and just like busy, busy, busy, in there and just like busy, busy, busy, in there and just like busy, busy, busy, work, work, work. work, work, work. work, work, work. >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> Interesting. The other The other dynamic >> Interesting. The other The other dynamic >> Interesting. The other The other dynamic cuz you and I talked about it when we cuz you and I talked about it when we cuz you and I talked about it when we bumped into each other at an event. Um there you know, you get appointed as as there you know, you get appointed as as a COO and people are like, "Oh, yeah, a COO and people are like, "Oh, yeah, a COO and people are like, "Oh, yeah, that's fine." But when you're in that that's fine." But when you're in that that's fine." But when you're in that senior seat, lead pastor, CEO, senior seat, lead pastor, CEO, senior seat, lead pastor, CEO, you get internal evaluation and external you get internal evaluation and external you get internal evaluation and external evaluation. People have opinions, evaluation. People have opinions, evaluation. People have opinions, Nicole, about whether you should have Nicole, about whether you should have Nicole, about whether you should have that job. that job. that job. >> Many, many opinions. >> Many, many opinions. >> Many, many opinions. >> about it because you had a bit of a >> about it because you had a bit of a >> about it because you had a bit of a surprising reaction to the announcement surprising reaction to the announcement surprising reaction to the announcement that you're going to become the new CEO that you're going to become the new CEO that you're going to become the new CEO and president of Christianity today. So, and president of Christianity today. So, and president of Christianity today. So, what happened? what happened? what happened? So, first of all, I think I I had my own So, first of all, I think I I had my own So, first of all, I think I I had my own internal wrestling with God. Am I the internal wrestling with God. Am I the internal wrestling with God. Am I the right person? Is this the right time? Um right person? Is this the right time? Um right person? Is this the right time? Um will I be good for the organization in will I be good for the organization in will I be good for the organization in this seat? Will the organization be good this seat? Will the organization be good this seat? Will the organization be good for me at this time? I wasn't seeking for me at this time? I wasn't seeking for me at this time? I wasn't seeking this job out. I wasn't looking for it.

this job out. I wasn't looking for it. this job out. I wasn't looking for it. It wasn't one of my prayer requests. It It wasn't one of my prayer requests. It It wasn't one of my prayer requests. It wasn't on my bucket list to someday lead wasn't on my bucket list to someday lead wasn't on my bucket list to someday lead CT or even be the CEO of any CT or even be the CEO of any CT or even be the CEO of any organization. I think I had finally organization. I think I had finally organization. I think I had finally gotten to the place in my life where I gotten to the place in my life where I gotten to the place in my life where I learned that my best stewardship of now learned that my best stewardship of now learned that my best stewardship of now is all I needed. Just steward the now is all I needed. Just steward the now is all I needed. Just steward the now and be content with God. And I had and be content with God. And I had and be content with God. And I had gotten to that space where I was gotten to that space where I was gotten to that space where I was stewarding the now, I thought, stewarding the now, I thought, stewarding the now, I thought, relatively well. When the opportunity relatively well. When the opportunity relatively well. When the opportunity came for me to apply, because it was a came for me to apply, because it was a came for me to apply, because it was a full process, more than 150 candidates full process, more than 150 candidates full process, more than 150 candidates around the world, um you know, I did around the world, um you know, I did around the world, um you know, I did second-guess, and I wondered, Yeah. will second-guess, and I wondered, Yeah. will second-guess, and I wondered, Yeah. will I [clears throat] be ready for what this I [clears throat] be ready for what this I [clears throat] be ready for what this means? I'm not naive. I know the kind of means? I'm not naive. I know the kind of means? I'm not naive. I know the kind of world we live in. I know that how I was world we live in. I know that how I was world we live in. I know that how I was born in and the body I was born in is born in and the body I was born in is born in and the body I was born in is not going to be widely accepted in some not going to be widely accepted in some not going to be widely accepted in some spaces. And I wrestled with that, not spaces. And I wrestled with that, not spaces. And I wrestled with that, not just for myself, but I never wanted to just for myself, but I never wanted to just for myself, but I never wanted to be in a place where the board felt there be in a place where the board felt there be in a place where the board felt there would be a hindrance to ministry. would be a hindrance to ministry. would be a hindrance to ministry. >> Mhm. So, throughout the interview >> Mhm. So, throughout the interview >> Mhm. So, throughout the interview process, I'm checking and balancing, you process, I'm checking and balancing, you process, I'm checking and balancing, you know, I'm checking, I'm asking the right know, I'm checking, I'm asking the right know, I'm checking, I'm asking the right questions, they're asking me the right questions, they're asking me the right questions, they're asking me the right questions. By the final interview, I questions. By the final interview, I questions. By the final interview, I knew for sure that I was the right one, knew for sure that I was the right one, knew for sure that I was the right one, and it was not because of my gender or and it was not because of my gender or and it was not because of my gender or my ethnicity, it was because of my sense my ethnicity, it was because of my sense my ethnicity, it was because of my sense of call. By that last interview, man, I of call. By that last interview, man, I of call. By that last interview, man, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was the vision God had given me for this was the vision God had given me for this was the vision God had given me for Christianity today to be a space where Christianity today to be a space where Christianity today to be a space where believers felt like this is these are my believers felt like this is these are my believers felt like this is these are my people. I am we are Christianity today.

people. I am we are Christianity today. people. I am we are Christianity today. So, we start talking about that, and I So, we start talking about that, and I So, we start talking about that, and I shared with you, you know, we did some shared with you, you know, we did some shared with you, you know, we did some opposition research. Thank God for for a opposition research. Thank God for for a opposition research. Thank God for for a great PR firm, and you know, they had great PR firm, and you know, they had great PR firm, and you know, they had their list of things of things to their list of things of things to their list of things of things to expect. Expect expect. Expect expect. Expect >> opposition? >> opposition? >> opposition? >> It's It's It's like trying to figure out >> It's It's It's like trying to figure out >> It's It's It's like trying to figure out what the naysayers will say before it what the naysayers will say before it what the naysayers will say before it happens. Okay. happens. Okay. happens. Okay. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Okay. How are people going to criticize >> Okay. How are people going to criticize >> Okay. How are people going to criticize my pick? Thank you for asking that, cuz my pick? Thank you for asking that, cuz my pick? Thank you for asking that, cuz I you know, it could sound like Yeah, I you know, it could sound like Yeah, I you know, it could sound like Yeah, but it's it it helps us to be aware of but it's it it helps us to be aware of but it's it it helps us to be aware of what the negative comments might be. what the negative comments might be. what the negative comments might be. So, it was good to be aware of So, it was good to be aware of So, it was good to be aware of >> What did you think? >> What did you think? >> What did you think? I mean, I I anticipated I mean, I I anticipated I mean, I I anticipated >> I anticipated people would say, oh well, >> I anticipated people would say, oh well, >> I anticipated people would say, oh well, you know, a woman shouldn't lead. you know, a woman shouldn't lead. you know, a woman shouldn't lead. Um I anticipated they would have Um I anticipated they would have Um I anticipated they would have challenges with the fact that I'm challenges with the fact that I'm challenges with the fact that I'm ordained. ordained. ordained. They would have challenges, you know, They would have challenges, you know, They would have challenges, you know, oh, this is DEI. Um it's it's it's a oh, this is DEI. Um it's it's it's a oh, this is DEI. Um it's it's it's a that CT has gone woke. Um, all of those that CT has gone woke. Um, all of those that CT has gone woke. Um, all of those things I anticipated. The irony is, things I anticipated. The irony is, things I anticipated. The irony is, um, um, um, my theological conservatism my theological conservatism my theological conservatism is one of the reasons why the board can is one of the reasons why the board can is one of the reasons why the board can trust me in this role. Mhm. Um, you trust me in this role. Mhm. Um, you trust me in this role. Mhm. Um, you know, I I I am unashamed of the gospel know, I I I am unashamed of the gospel know, I I I am unashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am in deep pursuit of of Jesus Christ. I am in deep pursuit of of Jesus Christ. I am in deep pursuit of what it looks like to be the broad, you what it looks like to be the broad, you what it looks like to be the broad, you know, rich body of Christ spanning know, rich body of Christ spanning know, rich body of Christ spanning political spectrums. There was concern, political spectrums. There was concern, political spectrums. There was concern, well, you know, will people assume that, well, you know, will people assume that, well, you know, will people assume that, you know, you've had a couple of you know, you've had a couple of you know, you've had a couple of articles about this and will people be articles about this and will people be articles about this and will people be turned off? But, my message turned off? But, my message turned off? But, my message consistently, my personal message and consistently, my personal message and consistently, my personal message and ministry has been, this is the kingdom ministry has been, this is the kingdom ministry has been, this is the kingdom of God. And I want to have a space where

of God. And I want to have a space where of God. And I want to have a space where we can say, "Yeah, we don't really agree we can say, "Yeah, we don't really agree we can say, "Yeah, we don't really agree on that, but let's go have a coffee." on that, but let's go have a coffee." on that, but let's go have a coffee." It's civil dialogue. It's the kingdom It's civil dialogue. It's the kingdom It's civil dialogue. It's the kingdom It's the kingdom of God. It's the body It's the kingdom of God. It's the body It's the kingdom of God. It's the body of Christ. And I am so honored to of Christ. And I am so honored to of Christ. And I am so honored to steward this part of that body of steward this part of that body of steward this part of that body of Christ. But, I mean, we expected it all Christ. But, I mean, we expected it all Christ. But, I mean, we expected it all and we got it all. and we got it all. and we got it all. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You got it all. >> You got it all. >> You got it all. I I I I I I You know, I think I know You know, I think I know You know, I think I know you well enough to you well enough to you well enough to to feel comfortable asking this to feel comfortable asking this to feel comfortable asking this question. question. question. But, I imagine some of the criticism was But, I imagine some of the criticism was But, I imagine some of the criticism was you're a black woman. you're a black woman. you're a black woman. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. >> How does that feel? >> How does that feel? >> How does that feel? You know, I can be honest and tell you You know, I can be honest and tell you You know, I can be honest and tell you it actually didn't bother me that much it actually didn't bother me that much it actually didn't bother me that much because I've been because I've been because I've been I've been black my whole life. I've been black my whole life. I've been black my whole life. >> [laughter] >> This is NOT >> This is NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOT >> [laughter] >> I WAS IT WAS WAIT, WAIT, I DON'T KNOW. >> I WAS IT WAS WAIT, WAIT, I DON'T KNOW. WE MAY HAVE to come back to that WE MAY HAVE to come back to that WE MAY HAVE to come back to that comment, but comment, but comment, but >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> but I I >> but I I >> but I I Here's Here's one example of what I've Here's Here's one example of what I've Here's Here's one example of what I've learned. My grandmother, um, was 93. She learned. My grandmother, um, was 93. She learned. My grandmother, um, was 93. She passed away a few weeks ago.

passed away a few weeks ago. passed away a few weeks ago. And what as we were remembering her And what as we were remembering her And what as we were remembering her life, I realized what I have inherited life, I realized what I have inherited life, I realized what I have inherited from her, from my grandmother, from my from her, from my grandmother, from my from her, from my grandmother, from my great-grandmother, from my mom and my great-grandmother, from my mom and my great-grandmother, from my mom and my dad was a sense of resilience that you dad was a sense of resilience that you dad was a sense of resilience that you don't let any element of who you are don't let any element of who you are don't let any element of who you are keep you from being everything God has keep you from being everything God has keep you from being everything God has called you to be. called you to be. called you to be. And I am not seeking to lead an And I am not seeking to lead an And I am not seeking to lead an organization out of my ethnicity. I'm organization out of my ethnicity. I'm organization out of my ethnicity. I'm not even trying to lead an organization not even trying to lead an organization not even trying to lead an organization out of a political lens or out of a out of a political lens or out of a out of a political lens or out of a denominational stance or out of, you denominational stance or out of, you denominational stance or out of, you know, my gender. I'm trying to lead a know, my gender. I'm trying to lead a know, my gender. I'm trying to lead a ministry that will function like a ministry that will function like a ministry that will function like a business that will bless the lives of business that will bless the lives of business that will bless the lives of hundreds of thousands of those who just hundreds of thousands of those who just hundreds of thousands of those who just want to make sense of the world through want to make sense of the world through want to make sense of the world through a biblical lens. So, I have learned to a biblical lens. So, I have learned to a biblical lens. So, I have learned to not let those things bother me. When I not let those things bother me. When I not let those things bother me. When I When I was interviewing I was asking God When I was interviewing I was asking God When I was interviewing I was asking God to give me some scripture to help me to to give me some scripture to help me to to give me some scripture to help me to withstand what might be attacks from the withstand what might be attacks from the withstand what might be attacks from the enemy because I do not believe that enemy because I do not believe that enemy because I do not believe that these are individuals with deep attacks these are individuals with deep attacks these are individuals with deep attacks or people with vendettas or you know, or people with vendettas or you know, or people with vendettas or you know, it's the enemy and we recognize that he it's the enemy and we recognize that he it's the enemy and we recognize that he is unhappy because he sees the work of is unhappy because he sees the work of is unhappy because he sees the work of God advancing.

God advancing. God advancing. My first scripture was Ezekiel 3 and I My first scripture was Ezekiel 3 and I My first scripture was Ezekiel 3 and I want to say it's around verse 8. Um God want to say it's around verse 8. Um God want to say it's around verse 8. Um God says, "I will make your forehead like says, "I will make your forehead like says, "I will make your forehead like flint." And I prayed that. That I would flint." And I prayed that. That I would flint." And I prayed that. That I would have a forehead like flint, that I would have a forehead like flint, that I would have a forehead like flint, that I would be so focused on the work ahead that I be so focused on the work ahead that I be so focused on the work ahead that I would not let other perspectives or would not let other perspectives or would not let other perspectives or taunts or, you know, horrible things taunts or, you know, horrible things taunts or, you know, horrible things said to bother me. The second was said to bother me. The second was said to bother me. The second was Jeremiah 1 and I want to say it's verse Jeremiah 1 and I want to say it's verse Jeremiah 1 and I want to say it's verse 8 and verse 17 where God says to 8 and verse 17 where God says to 8 and verse 17 where God says to Jeremiah, "Do not be afraid of their Jeremiah, "Do not be afraid of their Jeremiah, "Do not be afraid of their faces. Do not be afraid of their faces." faces. Do not be afraid of their faces." faces. Do not be afraid of their faces." And in 17, he says, "If you're afraid of And in 17, he says, "If you're afraid of And in 17, he says, "If you're afraid of their faces, then I will make you afraid their faces, then I will make you afraid their faces, then I will make you afraid of me." And I I think about that a lot of me." And I I think about that a lot of me." And I I think about that a lot because in any area of public life, you because in any area of public life, you because in any area of public life, you will be criticized. You will be will be criticized. You will be will be criticized. You will be scrutinized. But if you allow that to scrutinized. But if you allow that to scrutinized. But if you allow that to stop you, then stop you, then stop you, then you know, then you miss out on the whole you know, then you miss out on the whole you know, then you miss out on the whole point. My whole point is to glorify God. point. My whole point is to glorify God. point. My whole point is to glorify God. Our whole point of Christianity today is Our whole point of Christianity today is Our whole point of Christianity today is make room for the body of Christ and no, make room for the body of Christ and no, make room for the body of Christ and no, everybody's not going to be happy, but I everybody's not going to be happy, but I everybody's not going to be happy, but I refuse to take it personally. I refuse refuse to take it personally. I refuse refuse to take it personally. I refuse to let those things stop me from doing to let those things stop me from doing to let those things stop me from doing what God has called me to be. And can I what God has called me to be. And can I what God has called me to be. And can I just tell you, if you're a young leader, just tell you, if you're a young leader, just tell you, if you're a young leader, I would say the same thing to you. Do I would say the same thing to you. Do I would say the same thing to you. Do not Do not allow people to despise not Do not allow people to despise not Do not allow people to despise things about you that God has made you.

things about you that God has made you. things about you that God has made you. Cannot You you You choose to be who God Cannot You you You choose to be who God Cannot You you You choose to be who God has made you to be. Don't worry about has made you to be. Don't worry about has made you to be. Don't worry about their faces because God is for you. And their faces because God is for you. And their faces because God is for you. And I mean, does it matter who's against I mean, does it matter who's against I mean, does it matter who's against you? Not really. This episode is brought you? Not really. This episode is brought you? Not really. This episode is brought to you by the Spire conference. The to you by the Spire conference. The to you by the Spire conference. The strength of your church starts with your strength of your church starts with your strength of your church starts with your team. But if you're like a lot of team. But if you're like a lot of team. But if you're like a lot of leaders I talk to, finding the time and leaders I talk to, finding the time and leaders I talk to, finding the time and space to actually invest in your team, space to actually invest in your team, space to actually invest in your team, well, that's the hard part. So, I know well, that's the hard part. So, I know well, that's the hard part. So, I know you're juggling a lot and it's easy for you're juggling a lot and it's easy for you're juggling a lot and it's easy for development to get pushed to someday or development to get pushed to someday or development to get pushed to someday or get pushed out of the budget. And that's get pushed out of the budget. And that's get pushed out of the budget. And that's why I want to tell you about something I why I want to tell you about something I why I want to tell you about something I think could really help. Spire think could really help. Spire think could really help. Spire conference 2026 is happening September conference 2026 is happening September conference 2026 is happening September 29th through October 1st in 29th through October 1st in 29th through October 1st in Indianapolis. And what I really Indianapolis. And what I really Indianapolis. And what I really appreciate about Spire, cuz I've spoken appreciate about Spire, cuz I've spoken appreciate about Spire, cuz I've spoken there in the past, is it provides there in the past, is it provides there in the past, is it provides something of value for your entire team, something of value for your entire team, something of value for your entire team, whether it's main sessions, breakouts, whether it's main sessions, breakouts, whether it's main sessions, breakouts, or honestly, even conversations in the or honestly, even conversations in the or honestly, even conversations in the hallways. It's one of those environments hallways. It's one of those environments hallways. It's one of those environments that helps your church team step back, that helps your church team step back, that helps your church team step back, get clarity, and move forward together get clarity, and move forward together get clarity, and move forward together with real momentum. And if that sounds with real momentum. And if that sounds with real momentum. And if that sounds like something your team could use, you like something your team could use, you like something your team could use, you can learn more at spire.network. That's can learn more at spire.network. That's can learn more at spire.network. That's s p i r e .network and use the code s p i r e .network and use the code s p i r e .network and use the code carry50 to get $50 off each ticket. This carry50 to get $50 off each ticket. This carry50 to get $50 off each ticket. This episode is brought to you by Belay. For episode is brought to you by Belay. For episode is brought to you by Belay. For church leaders, financial clarity is not church leaders, financial clarity is not church leaders, financial clarity is not optional, it's essential. And it's the optional, it's essential. And it's the optional, it's essential. And it's the key to building trust with your key to building trust with your key to building trust with your community, ensuring resources are community, ensuring resources are community, ensuring resources are stewarded wisely, and helping you move stewarded wisely, and helping you move stewarded wisely, and helping you move your mission forward. But, we all know your mission forward. But, we all know your mission forward. But, we all know it's a lot easier said than done. So, it's a lot easier said than done. So, it's a lot easier said than done. So, after all, you're called to lead. And after all, you're called to lead. And after all, you're called to lead. And when finances fall outside of your

when finances fall outside of your when finances fall outside of your strengths or passions, as they do for a strengths or passions, as they do for a strengths or passions, as they do for a lot of lead pastors, things can really lot of lead pastors, things can really lot of lead pastors, things can really start to slip. So, you might end up start to slip. So, you might end up start to slip. So, you might end up facing burnout or you miss important facing burnout or you miss important facing burnout or you miss important details, you get pulled away from the details, you get pulled away from the details, you get pulled away from the work you're truly called to. And that's work you're truly called to. And that's work you're truly called to. And that's where Belay comes in. Belay pairs where Belay comes in. Belay pairs where Belay comes in. Belay pairs pastors like you with US-based financial pastors like you with US-based financial pastors like you with US-based financial experts who bring clarity and confidence experts who bring clarity and confidence experts who bring clarity and confidence to your financials. to your financials. to your financials. Their support is fractional, flexible, Their support is fractional, flexible, Their support is fractional, flexible, and tailored to your church, so you get and tailored to your church, so you get and tailored to your church, so you get exactly what you need within your exactly what you need within your exactly what you need within your budget. And if you're not sure where to budget. And if you're not sure where to budget. And if you're not sure where to start, download Belay's free resource, start, download Belay's free resource, start, download Belay's free resource, The Small Business Guide to Outsourced The Small Business Guide to Outsourced The Small Business Guide to Outsourced Accounting. You'll learn when Accounting. You'll learn when Accounting. You'll learn when outsourcing makes the most sense for you outsourcing makes the most sense for you outsourcing makes the most sense for you and what financial tasks you can hand and what financial tasks you can hand and what financial tasks you can hand off to lead better. So, how do you get off to lead better. So, how do you get off to lead better. So, how do you get it? Text my name, Carey, to 55123 it? Text my name, Carey, to 55123 it? Text my name, Carey, to 55123 for your free download. That's c a r e y for your free download. That's c a r e y for your free download. That's c a r e y to 55123 and get back to your calling to 55123 and get back to your calling to 55123 and get back to your calling with Belay. Were there any criticisms with Belay. Were there any criticisms with Belay. Were there any criticisms that surprised you or that hurt that surprised you or that hurt that surprised you or that hurt particularly deeply?

particularly deeply? particularly deeply? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I mean, I think the ones that hurt I mean, I think the ones that hurt I mean, I think the ones that hurt deeply were the ones that came from deeply were the ones that came from deeply were the ones that came from people who didn't know me and didn't people who didn't know me and didn't people who didn't know me and didn't know CT. know CT. know CT. Um Um Um I don't think I was surprised by any of I don't think I was surprised by any of I don't think I was surprised by any of it. But the the the the criticisms about it. But the the the the criticisms about it. But the the the the criticisms about theological position that there wasn't theological position that there wasn't theological position that there wasn't an an adherence to the word. That's the an an adherence to the word. That's the an an adherence to the word. That's the one that that challenges me because then one that that challenges me because then one that that challenges me because then I have to look and see I have to look and see I have to look and see how can we, as Christianity Today, make how can we, as Christianity Today, make how can we, as Christianity Today, make it so crystal clear that we value and it so crystal clear that we value and it so crystal clear that we value and uphold the word of God that a that a uphold the word of God that a that a uphold the word of God that a that a concern like that just doesn't have a concern like that just doesn't have a concern like that just doesn't have a place. place. place. So, I don't I you know, I don't allow So, I don't I you know, I don't allow So, I don't I you know, I don't allow the concerns or the complaints to bother the concerns or the complaints to bother the concerns or the complaints to bother me, but I also don't shrug them off as me, but I also don't shrug them off as me, but I also don't shrug them off as if they don't matter. If there is a if they don't matter. If there is a if they don't matter. If there is a concern about our theological accuracy, concern about our theological accuracy, concern about our theological accuracy, we want to we take that seriously. We we want to we take that seriously. We we want to we take that seriously. We want we want to be aligned to scripture. want we want to be aligned to scripture. want we want to be aligned to scripture. Um you know, there of course there is Um you know, there of course there is Um you know, there of course there is there are people who would say, "Oh, there are people who would say, "Oh, there are people who would say, "Oh, well, you know, you're the diversity well, you know, you're the diversity well, you know, you're the diversity hire." And to them I would say, "Well, hire." And to them I would say, "Well, hire." And to them I would say, "Well, let's talk. Let's have a conversation.

let's talk. Let's have a conversation. let's talk. Let's have a conversation. And And let's let's really talk about And And let's let's really talk about And And let's let's really talk about what that means to you. What How does what that means to you. What How does what that means to you. What How does that show up for you? Where's the pain that show up for you? Where's the pain that show up for you? Where's the pain there? And how do we, in a biblical way, there? And how do we, in a biblical way, there? And how do we, in a biblical way, make sense of what God is doing now?" make sense of what God is doing now?" make sense of what God is doing now?" So, I'm I'm all about the conversation, So, I'm I'm all about the conversation, So, I'm I'm all about the conversation, and I recognize there's some who don't and I recognize there's some who don't and I recognize there's some who don't want to have a conversation. They just want to have a conversation. They just want to have a conversation. They just want to make a statement. Um want to make a statement. Um want to make a statement. Um but you know, we take it in stride. but you know, we take it in stride. but you know, we take it in stride. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, well, good for you, Nicole. Yeah, well, good for you, Nicole. Yeah, well, good for you, Nicole. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Good for you. I mean I good for me. >> Good for you. I mean I good for me. >> Good for you. I mean I good for me. >> I I I mean, that's just it's just >> I I I mean, that's just it's just >> I I I mean, that's just it's just a surreal environment we're in right a surreal environment we're in right a surreal environment we're in right now. And part of that, if if if we're now. And part of that, if if if we're now. And part of that, if if if we're ready to move on ready to move on ready to move on Yeah. I mean, you think about Yeah. I mean, you think about Yeah. I mean, you think about journalism, which is kind of what journalism, which is kind of what journalism, which is kind of what Christianity Today is. It's an editorial Christianity Today is. It's an editorial Christianity Today is. It's an editorial voice in making sense of the world that voice in making sense of the world that voice in making sense of the world that we live in. we live in. we live in. You know, you think about journalism a You know, you think about journalism a You know, you think about journalism a generation ago, and it was you have a generation ago, and it was you have a generation ago, and it was you have a center line, slightly left opinion, center line, slightly left opinion, center line, slightly left opinion, slightly right opinion, diversity of slightly right opinion, diversity of slightly right opinion, diversity of views often within the same publication, views often within the same publication, views often within the same publication, and you had and you had and you had more conservative publications, more more conservative publications, more more conservative publications, more liberal publication. But Christianity liberal publication. But Christianity liberal publication. But Christianity was always kind of a was always kind of a was always kind of a a unifying a unifying a unifying voice.

voice. voice. >> I would say. That's how I understood it >> I would say. That's how I understood it >> I would say. That's how I understood it growing up. That's how I have read it growing up. That's how I have read it growing up. That's how I have read it over the years. And now we find over the years. And now we find over the years. And now we find ourselves in this bizarre vortex ourselves in this bizarre vortex ourselves in this bizarre vortex where everything is so hyper-divided. where everything is so hyper-divided. where everything is so hyper-divided. Yeah. How do you find an editorial voice Yeah. How do you find an editorial voice Yeah. How do you find an editorial voice in today's environment? Because as in today's environment? Because as in today's environment? Because as you've already hinted at, almost you've already hinted at, almost you've already hinted at, almost immediately immediately immediately if I say this, someone's going to say, if I say this, someone's going to say, if I say this, someone's going to say, "Well, that's woke." Or that's so mega. "Well, that's woke." Or that's so mega. "Well, that's woke." Or that's so mega. Or that's this. Or it's not this enough. Or that's this. Or it's not this enough. Or that's this. Or it's not this enough. So, I don't even know, and I think a lot So, I don't even know, and I think a lot So, I don't even know, and I think a lot of us are struggling with that. We've of us are struggling with that. We've of us are struggling with that. We've been talking about it on the pod a lot been talking about it on the pod a lot been talking about it on the pod a lot lately. lately. lately. Is like, how do you even begin to try to Is like, how do you even begin to try to Is like, how do you even begin to try to find find find a voice that isn't just immediately a voice that isn't just immediately a voice that isn't just immediately dismissed by various dismissed by various dismissed by various ideological perspectives. ideological perspectives. ideological perspectives. I mean that's I mean that's I mean that's it is a question that we have to it is a question that we have to it is a question that we have to continue to wrestle with. The moment we continue to wrestle with. The moment we continue to wrestle with. The moment we stop wrestling with that question, I stop wrestling with that question, I stop wrestling with that question, I think we're in danger. And I have found think we're in danger. And I have found think we're in danger. And I have found great comfort. great comfort. great comfort. >> I mean, there's not going to be an >> I mean, there's not going to be an >> I mean, there's not going to be an immediate answer. And depending on the immediate answer. And depending on the immediate answer. And depending on the topic, some answers are easier than topic, some answers are easier than topic, some answers are easier than others. Do you Do we agree that all others. Do you Do we agree that all others. Do you Do we agree that all people are valuable in the sight of God?

people are valuable in the sight of God? people are valuable in the sight of God? Yes, that's not an argument. Yes, that's not an argument. Yes, that's not an argument. >> sure everybody agrees with that anymore. >> sure everybody agrees with that anymore. >> sure everybody agrees with that anymore. I know, right? No, I know. I mean, I I know, right? No, I know. I mean, I I know, right? No, I know. I mean, I mean, I I I wish I wish that those words mean, I I I wish I wish that those words mean, I I I wish I wish that those words didn't come out of my mouth, but like didn't come out of my mouth, but like didn't come out of my mouth, but like yes, I agree. I know. But I'm And I yes, I agree. I know. But I'm And I yes, I agree. I know. But I'm And I think most people who listen to a show think most people who listen to a show think most people who listen to a show like this would agree with that, but I like this would agree with that, but I like this would agree with that, but I don't think everybody agrees with that don't think everybody agrees with that don't think everybody agrees with that anymore, you know? anymore, you know? anymore, you know? >> And it's the outplaying of what does it >> And it's the outplaying of what does it >> And it's the outplaying of what does it mean and how does how does that lay out? mean and how does how does that lay out? mean and how does how does that lay out? The only thing that's brought me comfort The only thing that's brought me comfort The only thing that's brought me comfort is knowing that Billy Graham also is knowing that Billy Graham also is knowing that Billy Graham also struggled with these exact same I struggled with these exact same I struggled with these exact same I wouldn't say exact same, but very wouldn't say exact same, but very wouldn't say exact same, but very similar tensions. CT is 70 years old similar tensions. CT is 70 years old similar tensions. CT is 70 years old this year. We started in 1956. this year. We started in 1956. this year. We started in 1956. And as I read through Billy Graham's And as I read through Billy Graham's And as I read through Billy Graham's writings, his own voice on CT and and writings, his own voice on CT and and writings, his own voice on CT and and those of like Bill Martin, who have also those of like Bill Martin, who have also those of like Bill Martin, who have also written about him, there the struggle written about him, there the struggle written about him, there the struggle was real. CT was started as a flag for was real. CT was started as a flag for was real. CT was started as a flag for the the intellectual center evangelical. the the intellectual center evangelical. the the intellectual center evangelical. And he was writing for a group that was And he was writing for a group that was And he was writing for a group that was not in what he described a not in what he described a not in what he described a fundamentalist camp. And for him in that fundamentalist camp. And for him in that fundamentalist camp. And for him in that time, that would have been people like time, that would have been people like time, that would have been people like Bob Jones and others who say it is only Bob Jones and others who say it is only Bob Jones and others who say it is only Bible and no social engagement. And he Bible and no social engagement. And he Bible and no social engagement. And he also didn't want it to be at in his day also didn't want it to be at in his day also didn't want it to be at in his day at that time. He referenced like the at that time. He referenced like the at that time. He referenced like the Christian Century. And he said that was Christian Century. And he said that was Christian Century. And he said that was a space that was far more progressive, a space that was far more progressive, a space that was far more progressive, that was not as adherent to scripture that was not as adherent to scripture that was not as adherent to scripture and more engaged in social issues. So and more engaged in social issues. So and more engaged in social issues. So for Billy Graham, he wanted to find a for Billy Graham, he wanted to find a for Billy Graham, he wanted to find a space. And in his own words, he said, "I space. And in his own words, he said, "I space. And in his own words, he said, "I want Chris Christianity Today to want Chris Christianity Today to want Chris Christianity Today to demonstrate biblical orthodoxy with deep demonstrate biblical orthodoxy with deep demonstrate biblical orthodoxy with deep social concern. And I think that is

social concern. And I think that is social concern. And I think that is where we still find ourselves today. We where we still find ourselves today. We where we still find ourselves today. We want to help people make sense of the want to help people make sense of the want to help people make sense of the world through a biblical lens, which world through a biblical lens, which world through a biblical lens, which means we have deep biblical orthodoxy, means we have deep biblical orthodoxy, means we have deep biblical orthodoxy, but we also lean into the contemporary but we also lean into the contemporary but we also lean into the contemporary issues of the day and ask ourselves, how issues of the day and ask ourselves, how issues of the day and ask ourselves, how does scripture shape how we think? Now, does scripture shape how we think? Now, does scripture shape how we think? Now, a lot of people will say CT tells them a lot of people will say CT tells them a lot of people will say CT tells them what to think, but that's not the aim. what to think, but that's not the aim. what to think, but that's not the aim. Our aim is not to tell people what to Our aim is not to tell people what to Our aim is not to tell people what to think. Our aim is to show people how to think. Our aim is to show people how to think. Our aim is to show people how to think, almost Rubik's Cube style, how think, almost Rubik's Cube style, how think, almost Rubik's Cube style, how evangelicals think about an issue from evangelicals think about an issue from evangelicals think about an issue from various angles. So, it means that there various angles. So, it means that there various angles. So, it means that there will be times where we have differing will be times where we have differing will be times where we have differing opinions, but we're still the same cube, opinions, but we're still the same cube, opinions, but we're still the same cube, to use that Rubik's Cube example. We may to use that Rubik's Cube example. We may to use that Rubik's Cube example. We may not sit on the same area on certain not sit on the same area on certain not sit on the same area on certain issues, but we come together for the issues, but we come together for the issues, but we come together for the cause of Christ. And I think we still cause of Christ. And I think we still cause of Christ. And I think we still try to forge that today. I am constantly try to forge that today. I am constantly try to forge that today. I am constantly trying to see how do we win back those trying to see how do we win back those trying to see how do we win back those who have maybe been turned off by who have maybe been turned off by who have maybe been turned off by something that we've said. How do we win something that we've said. How do we win something that we've said. How do we win back those who feel like we're too, you back those who feel like we're too, you back those who feel like we're too, you know, I don't know, too fill in the know, I don't know, too fill in the know, I don't know, too fill in the blank for them. And while we recognize blank for them. And while we recognize blank for them. And while we recognize that you cannot be all things for all that you cannot be all things for all that you cannot be all things for all people, I do believe the gospel has the people, I do believe the gospel has the people, I do believe the gospel has the greatest tent there is, the greatest greatest tent there is, the greatest greatest tent there is, the greatest space for people who disagree to still space for people who disagree to still space for people who disagree to still sit together and say, "And yes, let's sit together and say, "And yes, let's sit together and say, "And yes, let's still share a meal."

still share a meal." still share a meal." Yeah, it's it's hard to find that Yeah, it's it's hard to find that Yeah, it's it's hard to find that editorial line. The middle has editorial line. The middle has editorial line. The middle has disappeared from our culture over the disappeared from our culture over the disappeared from our culture over the last decade. That's true. The middle last decade. That's true. The middle last decade. That's true. The middle class, maybe the last 15 years. It's class, maybe the last 15 years. It's class, maybe the last 15 years. It's true. true. true. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Honestly, if you look at consumer goods, >> Honestly, if you look at consumer goods, >> Honestly, if you look at consumer goods, you either have the dollar store or you either have the dollar store or you either have the dollar store or luxury items. The department store's luxury items. The department store's luxury items. The department store's gone. Uh, not entirely, but largely. gone. Uh, not entirely, but largely. gone. Uh, not entirely, but largely. And and that whole middle, where there And and that whole middle, where there And and that whole middle, where there was a broad consensus, seems to have was a broad consensus, seems to have was a broad consensus, seems to have disappeared. Billy Graham, it's funny, disappeared. Billy Graham, it's funny, disappeared. Billy Graham, it's funny, well, it's not funny. It's commendable well, it's not funny. It's commendable well, it's not funny. It's commendable that you would study his contribution to that you would study his contribution to that you would study his contribution to Christianity today. Christianity today. Christianity today. A lot of these voices are are gone or A lot of these voices are are gone or A lot of these voices are are gone or much much older now, but I remember much much older now, but I remember much much older now, but I remember talking to Eugene Peterson and talking to Eugene Peterson and talking to Eugene Peterson and >> Yeah. to Gordon MacDonald about leaving >> Yeah. to Gordon MacDonald about leaving >> Yeah. to Gordon MacDonald about leaving through the '60s, the Civil Rights era, through the '60s, the Civil Rights era, through the '60s, the Civil Rights era, the early '70s, the Vietnam War. That the early '70s, the Vietnam War. That the early '70s, the Vietnam War. That was a very contentious age, and was a very contentious age, and was a very contentious age, and according to them, according to them, according to them, almost as or perhaps as contentious as almost as or perhaps as contentious as almost as or perhaps as contentious as our age. I mean, cities were on fire. our age. I mean, cities were on fire. our age. I mean, cities were on fire. And there were riots in the streets.

And there were riots in the streets. And there were riots in the streets. Uh it was it was a very different time, Uh it was it was a very different time, Uh it was it was a very different time, and the church largely didn't know what and the church largely didn't know what and the church largely didn't know what to do. to do. to do. When you look back at history, what were When you look back at history, what were When you look back at history, what were some of the things that Billy Graham or some of the things that Billy Graham or some of the things that Billy Graham or other people who have sat in your chair other people who have sat in your chair other people who have sat in your chair before you sat in it have done well in a before you sat in it have done well in a before you sat in it have done well in a divided time? What do you see as, "Ah, divided time? What do you see as, "Ah, divided time? What do you see as, "Ah, these are the good virtues that I got to these are the good virtues that I got to these are the good virtues that I got to try to find a way in 2026 and be a try to find a way in 2026 and be a try to find a way in 2026 and be a >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's so many. Um you >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's so many. Um you >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's so many. Um you know, uh there were some contentions know, uh there were some contentions know, uh there were some contentions when CT first got started. Um one when CT first got started. Um one when CT first got started. Um one contention was they wanted to be um contention was they wanted to be um contention was they wanted to be um intellectually minded. So, there were intellectually minded. So, there were intellectually minded. So, there were some editors who felt it was not an some editors who felt it was not an some editors who felt it was not an intellectual pursuit to write about intellectual pursuit to write about intellectual pursuit to write about Graham's crusades. So, for the first few Graham's crusades. So, for the first few Graham's crusades. So, for the first few years, they they did not talk about years, they they did not talk about years, they they did not talk about Billy Graham's crusades. However, they Billy Graham's crusades. However, they Billy Graham's crusades. However, they made up for that later in the '60s and made up for that later in the '60s and made up for that later in the '60s and began to talk about this sense of began to talk about this sense of began to talk about this sense of revival from people who had heard the revival from people who had heard the revival from people who had heard the gospel, received the gospel, and now gospel, received the gospel, and now gospel, received the gospel, and now their lives were changed. So, that to me their lives were changed. So, that to me their lives were changed. So, that to me is a virtue that they were able to is a virtue that they were able to is a virtue that they were able to recognize something that didn't go well recognize something that didn't go well recognize something that didn't go well and to fix it. Uh the same is true of and to fix it. Uh the same is true of and to fix it. Uh the same is true of the Civil Rights Movement. In the early the Civil Rights Movement. In the early the Civil Rights Movement. In the early parts of CT's history, there was a great parts of CT's history, there was a great parts of CT's history, there was a great debate about whether or not the Civil debate about whether or not the Civil debate about whether or not the Civil Rights should be covered. And, you know, Rights should be covered. And, you know, Rights should be covered. And, you know, L Nelson Bell is one who wrote a lot L Nelson Bell is one who wrote a lot L Nelson Bell is one who wrote a lot about the the sanctity of segregation.

about the the sanctity of segregation. about the the sanctity of segregation. He really felt like um CT should not be He really felt like um CT should not be He really felt like um CT should not be engaged in conversations with Dr. King engaged in conversations with Dr. King engaged in conversations with Dr. King or others who were forerunners of or others who were forerunners of or others who were forerunners of Christians Christians Christians >> in Christianity today about the sanctity >> in Christianity today about the sanctity >> in Christianity today about the sanctity of segregation? of segregation? of segregation? L Nelson Bell has written in many Yes, L Nelson Bell has written in many Yes, L Nelson Bell has written in many Yes, he wrote in many different he wrote in many different he wrote in many different >> unfamiliar. CT is one of them. Yeah. >> unfamiliar. CT is one of them. Yeah. >> unfamiliar. CT is one of them. Yeah. >> Okay, so he was writing in >> Okay, so he was writing in >> Okay, so he was writing in >> some of his writings. >> some of his writings. >> some of his writings. What was the argument? What was the argument? What was the argument? His argument was that yes, we're all His argument was that yes, we're all His argument was that yes, we're all created in the eyes of God, but that to created in the eyes of God, but that to created in the eyes of God, but that to be forced to integrate was the sin. He be forced to integrate was the sin. He be forced to integrate was the sin. He felt like the choice to segregate is felt like the choice to segregate is felt like the choice to segregate is part of our human will that shouldn't be part of our human will that shouldn't be part of our human will that shouldn't be infringed upon. infringed upon. infringed upon. And you know, he was a little bit And you know, he was a little bit And you know, he was a little bit >> Ferguson all over >> Ferguson all over >> Ferguson all over >> Yes. separate but equal >> Yes. separate but equal >> Yes. separate but equal >> even within CT, so you have L Nelson >> even within CT, so you have L Nelson >> even within CT, so you have L Nelson Bell, that's Billy Graham's Bell, that's Billy Graham's Bell, that's Billy Graham's father-in-law. He's arguing father-in-law. He's arguing father-in-law. He's arguing pro-segregation, but then you have Carl pro-segregation, but then you have Carl pro-segregation, but then you have Carl F.H. Henry who was one of the founders F.H. Henry who was one of the founders F.H. Henry who was one of the founders of of of >> I'm I'm new to this. You said Billy >> I'm I'm new to this. You said Billy >> I'm I'm new to this. You said Billy Graham's father-in-law was Graham's father-in-law was Graham's father-in-law was pro-segregation?

pro-segregation? pro-segregation? >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> And he's writing in Christianity today >> Nelson Bell. He was a very >> Nelson Bell. He was a very >> Nelson Bell. He was a very prominent missionary throughout China. prominent missionary throughout China. prominent missionary throughout China. Ruth was his daughter and Ruth was his daughter and Ruth was his daughter and you know, even though he was deeply you know, even though he was deeply you know, even though he was deeply immersed in Chinese culture and did immersed in Chinese culture and did immersed in Chinese culture and did great things during his missionary great things during his missionary great things during his missionary career, he also very much felt like the career, he also very much felt like the career, he also very much felt like the the the forced integration of races was the the forced integration of races was the the forced integration of races was not the choice that Christians should not the choice that Christians should not the choice that Christians should make. Mhm. And he wrote about it. make. Mhm. And he wrote about it. make. Mhm. And he wrote about it. >> you. Yeah. >> you. Yeah. >> you. Yeah. >> wrote about that and I I know I derailed >> wrote about that and I I know I derailed >> wrote about that and I I know I derailed you, but I'm like I'm not familiar with you, but I'm like I'm not familiar with you, but I'm like I'm not familiar with that part of the story. So keep going. that part of the story. So keep going. that part of the story. So keep going. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know, the reason why I tell >> And you know, the reason why I tell >> And you know, the reason why I tell these stories is not to demonize or to these stories is not to demonize or to these stories is not to demonize or to criticize. It's sometimes we have to criticize. It's sometimes we have to criticize. It's sometimes we have to know the history of where we've where know the history of where we've where know the history of where we've where we've been so that when we when we come we've been so that when we when we come we've been so that when we when we come to tensions and polarizations now, we to tensions and polarizations now, we to tensions and polarizations now, we recognize some of those tensions are recognize some of those tensions are recognize some of those tensions are still real today. So within CT, you had still real today. So within CT, you had still real today. So within CT, you had L Nelson Bell who was pro-segregation.

L Nelson Bell who was pro-segregation. L Nelson Bell who was pro-segregation. You had Carl Henry, who was more You had Carl Henry, who was more You had Carl Henry, who was more pro-integration. Carl Henry was the one pro-integration. Carl Henry was the one pro-integration. Carl Henry was the one who in his book Confessions wrote about who in his book Confessions wrote about who in his book Confessions wrote about how he wished he had pushed harder how he wished he had pushed harder how he wished he had pushed harder against L. Nelson Bell to write about against L. Nelson Bell to write about against L. Nelson Bell to write about civil rights. So, in the '50s in the civil rights. So, in the '50s in the civil rights. So, in the '50s in the time of that CT first got started, time of that CT first got started, time of that CT first got started, there's a lot of contention. there's a lot of contention. there's a lot of contention. In the '60s, '70s, you start to see CT In the '60s, '70s, you start to see CT In the '60s, '70s, you start to see CT take some bold choices. They start to take some bold choices. They start to take some bold choices. They start to talk about crusades. They start to talk talk about crusades. They start to talk talk about crusades. They start to talk about um the civil rights movement. They about um the civil rights movement. They about um the civil rights movement. They start to give perspectives on what start to give perspectives on what start to give perspectives on what different pastors in different areas different pastors in different areas different pastors in different areas think about things, not telling people think about things, not telling people think about things, not telling people how to think, but what to think, but how to think, but what to think, but how to think, but what to think, but teaching them how to think biblically. teaching them how to think biblically. teaching them how to think biblically. Um they they they were almost in the Um they they they were almost in the Um they they they were almost in the '70s, mid-'70s, getting cited by secular '70s, mid-'70s, getting cited by secular '70s, mid-'70s, getting cited by secular sources because they were talking about sources because they were talking about sources because they were talking about things that churches didn't want to talk things that churches didn't want to talk things that churches didn't want to talk about. In fact, I have a copy of an ad. about. In fact, I have a copy of an ad. about. In fact, I have a copy of an ad. I'll send it to you. I have a copy of an I'll send it to you. I have a copy of an I'll send it to you. I have a copy of an ad from a CT magazine August 1975. ad from a CT magazine August 1975. ad from a CT magazine August 1975. And the ad says, "Do you want to know And the ad says, "Do you want to know And the ad says, "Do you want to know why Christianity Today is cited by why Christianity Today is cited by why Christianity Today is cited by secular sources as the most cited secular sources as the most cited secular sources as the most cited Christian resource by secular sources?"

Christian resource by secular sources?" Christian resource by secular sources?" And it says, "Because we never duck And it says, "Because we never duck And it says, "Because we never duck controversy." controversy." controversy." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I mean, by the '70s, CT was interviewing >> I mean, by the '70s, CT was interviewing >> I mean, by the '70s, CT was interviewing ex-Klansmen who had come out of the Klan ex-Klansmen who had come out of the Klan ex-Klansmen who had come out of the Klan and and had a turning point with Jesus and and had a turning point with Jesus and and had a turning point with Jesus and started living in integrated and and started living in integrated and and started living in integrated and reconciled spaces. We were talking about reconciled spaces. We were talking about reconciled spaces. We were talking about ministers who had stepped away from the ministers who had stepped away from the ministers who had stepped away from the pulpit and and tried to be redeemed. I pulpit and and tried to be redeemed. I pulpit and and tried to be redeemed. I mean, this is our history. And the mean, this is our history. And the mean, this is our history. And the things that I reflect on when I say, things that I reflect on when I say, things that I reflect on when I say, "Who are Who are we to be today?" I "Who are Who are we to be today?" I "Who are Who are we to be today?" I think about a hyper-focus on their think about a hyper-focus on their think about a hyper-focus on their audience. You know, the early stage, audience. You know, the early stage, audience. You know, the early stage, they knew exactly where their audiences they knew exactly where their audiences they knew exactly where their audiences were, so that puts pressure on us to were, so that puts pressure on us to were, so that puts pressure on us to know who's the audience. They were know who's the audience. They were know who's the audience. They were intentional about talking about hard intentional about talking about hard intentional about talking about hard things. And I know it's hard now. You things. And I know it's hard now. You things. And I know it's hard now. You said it. What we're talking about is not said it. What we're talking about is not said it. What we're talking about is not easy. You talking about the diminishing easy. You talking about the diminishing easy. You talking about the diminishing middle. This is hard work. middle. This is hard work. middle. This is hard work. But without hope, then we have nothing. But without hope, then we have nothing. But without hope, then we have nothing. So, we still have hope that we can talk So, we still have hope that we can talk So, we still have hope that we can talk about hard things that aren't talked about hard things that aren't talked about hard things that aren't talked about in your church or in your family, about in your church or in your family, about in your church or in your family, and we can still bring a redemptive lens and we can still bring a redemptive lens and we can still bring a redemptive lens to that so that people can see Christ.

to that so that people can see Christ. to that so that people can see Christ. I just I I'm a dog on a bone with it. I I just I I'm a dog on a bone with it. I I just I I'm a dog on a bone with it. I just believe we can do it. just believe we can do it. just believe we can do it. >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, a quick personal note that I'm actually a quick personal note that I'm actually a quick personal note that I'm actually really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September 15th. 15th. 15th. It's called AI in the Future Church, It's called AI in the Future Church, It's called AI in the Future Church, Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I want to tell you about why I wrote it. want to tell you about why I wrote it. want to tell you about why I wrote it. So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I believe believe believe that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running toward exactly what the church offers. toward exactly what the church offers. toward exactly what the church offers. Real community, unchanging truth, Real community, unchanging truth, Real community, unchanging truth, connection that means something. And connection that means something. And connection that means something. And here's why. A world growing more here's why. A world growing more here's why. A world growing more artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And the church has been answering the the church has been answering the the church has been answering the question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the future, no matter what AI ushers in.

future, no matter what AI ushers in. future, no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at careynieuwhof.com/ai, careynieuwhof.com/ai, careynieuwhof.com/ai, or by searching for AI and the Future or by searching for AI and the Future or by searching for AI and the Future Church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get your books. wherever you get your books. wherever you get your books. Both links are in the show notes, so Both links are in the show notes, so Both links are in the show notes, so pre-order your copy today and you'll be pre-order your copy today and you'll be pre-order your copy today and you'll be set to receive your copy immediately set to receive your copy immediately set to receive your copy immediately after it releases on September 15th, after it releases on September 15th, after it releases on September 15th, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. So, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. So, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. So, you would like to take the publication you would like to take the publication you would like to take the publication to the point where we can talk about a to the point where we can talk about a to the point where we can talk about a variety of perspectives on hard issues. variety of perspectives on hard issues. variety of perspectives on hard issues. Is that what I'm hearing you saying? Is that what I'm hearing you saying? Is that what I'm hearing you saying? I think our trajectory has been that and I think our trajectory has been that and I think our trajectory has been that and I think that we have done that. I also I think that we have done that. I also I think that we have done that. I also [clears throat] think that the advantage [clears throat] think that the advantage [clears throat] think that the advantage that we have today that perhaps CT that we have today that perhaps CT that we have today that perhaps CT didn't have in the 50s is we have the didn't have in the 50s is we have the didn't have in the 50s is we have the advantage of platform diversification. advantage of platform diversification. advantage of platform diversification. And what I mean is um if you're a pastor And what I mean is um if you're a pastor And what I mean is um if you're a pastor who doesn't really like politics, we who doesn't really like politics, we who doesn't really like politics, we have CT pastors for that reason, where have CT pastors for that reason, where have CT pastors for that reason, where you have sermon prep and you have you have sermon prep and you have you have sermon prep and you have community building and you have sermon community building and you have sermon community building and you have sermon examples and illustrations and examples and illustrations and examples and illustrations and devotionals that are specifically shaped devotionals that are specifically shaped devotionals that are specifically shaped for the heart of the pastor. If you're a for the heart of the pastor. If you're a for the heart of the pastor. If you're a person who likes the day-to-day, tell me person who likes the day-to-day, tell me person who likes the day-to-day, tell me what's happening in the world right now, what's happening in the world right now, what's happening in the world right now, we have a space for that on our daily we have a space for that on our daily we have a space for that on our daily briefings. So, I think where where we're briefings. So, I think where where we're briefings. So, I think where where we're going is to help people make sense of going is to help people make sense of going is to help people make sense of the world through biblical lens in a the world through biblical lens in a the world through biblical lens in a variety of ways on a variety of variety of ways on a variety of variety of ways on a variety of platforms. And that's where I think we platforms. And that's where I think we platforms. And that's where I think we can lean in so that we can become a bit can lean in so that we can become a bit can lean in so that we can become a bit more um customized to a wider group of

more um customized to a wider group of more um customized to a wider group of people. Well, to some extent, I don't people. Well, to some extent, I don't people. Well, to some extent, I don't want to make every episode of this want to make every episode of this want to make every episode of this podcast about the algorithm, but it is a podcast about the algorithm, but it is a podcast about the algorithm, but it is a common theme this year. I identified it common theme this year. I identified it common theme this year. I identified it as a church trend. That is what the as a church trend. That is what the as a church trend. That is what the algorithm does not do. algorithm does not do. algorithm does not do. It just takes you deeper and deeper into It just takes you deeper and deeper into It just takes you deeper and deeper into your own wormhole. your own wormhole. your own wormhole. Uh whatever that is, whether you're a Uh whatever that is, whether you're a Uh whatever that is, whether you're a little bit progressive or you're all the little bit progressive or you're all the little bit progressive or you're all the way MAGA or you're this or you're that, way MAGA or you're this or you're that, way MAGA or you're this or you're that, it's just more and more of the same to it's just more and more of the same to it's just more and more of the same to the point where you are convinced the point where you are convinced the point where you are convinced I'm absolutely right. Everybody else is I'm absolutely right. Everybody else is I'm absolutely right. Everybody else is wrong. I can't believe you see the world wrong. I can't believe you see the world wrong. I can't believe you see the world differently than me. differently than me. differently than me. And you know, having having got some And you know, having having got some And you know, having having got some decades under my belt, I remember when decades under my belt, I remember when decades under my belt, I remember when there used to be liberal papers, you there used to be liberal papers, you there used to be liberal papers, you know, conservative papers, know, conservative papers, know, conservative papers, liberal magazines, conservative like you liberal magazines, conservative like you liberal magazines, conservative like you say, Christian Century versus say, Christian Century versus say, Christian Century versus Christianity today. Christianity today. Christianity today. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But within Christianity today, there was >> But within Christianity today, there was >> But within Christianity today, there was a diversity of opinions. There was I a diversity of opinions. There was I a diversity of opinions. There was I call it theology on a tether. It's like call it theology on a tether. It's like call it theology on a tether. It's like playing tetherball. playing tetherball. playing tetherball. >> Absolutely. It's like, you know, here's >> Absolutely. It's like, you know, here's >> Absolutely. It's like, you know, here's here's our boundary. The ball moved over here's our boundary. The ball moved over here's our boundary. The ball moved over here, then it moved over there, then here, then it moved over there, then here, then it moved over there, then it's there, then it's there, but it's it's there, then it's there, but it's it's there, then it's there, but it's all within the bounds of what we all within the bounds of what we all within the bounds of what we consider a broader orthodoxy, right?

consider a broader orthodoxy, right? consider a broader orthodoxy, right? Which is which is what seems to be Which is which is what seems to be Which is which is what seems to be missing. missing. missing. Anything else, any guidance for leaders Anything else, any guidance for leaders Anything else, any guidance for leaders on how to find or even showcase in their on how to find or even showcase in their on how to find or even showcase in their own platforms? And I mean, I try to do own platforms? And I mean, I try to do own platforms? And I mean, I try to do this with the podcast. We don't we don't this with the podcast. We don't we don't this with the podcast. We don't we don't go to crazy extremes, go to crazy extremes, go to crazy extremes, but a lot of my guests would not be but a lot of my guests would not be but a lot of my guests would not be comfortable being in the same room with comfortable being in the same room with comfortable being in the same room with each other. Some of them. each other. Some of them. each other. Some of them. >> Right. Not a lot, but some of them would >> Right. Not a lot, but some of them would >> Right. Not a lot, but some of them would not be. not be. not be. And they would be like, I can't believe And they would be like, I can't believe And they would be like, I can't believe you had this guy on, I can't believe you you had this guy on, I can't believe you you had this guy on, I can't believe you had this woman on. That kind of thing. had this woman on. That kind of thing. had this woman on. That kind of thing. And I'm I'm okay with that. Like I'm I'm And I'm I'm okay with that. Like I'm I'm And I'm I'm okay with that. Like I'm I'm okay with that. I think we want to we okay with that. I think we want to we okay with that. I think we want to we want to court a a a broad want to court a a a broad want to court a a a broad diversity of of of views. Not to the diversity of of of views. Not to the diversity of of of views. Not to the extreme, and some people would say, "Oh, extreme, and some people would say, "Oh, extreme, and some people would say, "Oh, you haven't even said the other side." you haven't even said the other side." you haven't even said the other side." It's like, okay, that's fine. It's like, okay, that's fine. It's like, okay, that's fine. What what advice do you have for those What what advice do you have for those What what advice do you have for those of us trying to of us trying to of us trying to not just represent one's not just represent one's not just represent one's ideological point of view? ideological point of view? ideological point of view? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, sometimes when we try I think, you know, sometimes when we try I think, you know, sometimes when we try our best to find a fit within culture, our best to find a fit within culture, our best to find a fit within culture, it can be a confusing, it can be a confusing, it can be a confusing, daunting, frustrating task.

daunting, frustrating task. daunting, frustrating task. But I do believe that we can find our But I do believe that we can find our But I do believe that we can find our fit within scripture. And And I'm not fit within scripture. And And I'm not fit within scripture. And And I'm not trying to minimize the complexities of trying to minimize the complexities of trying to minimize the complexities of cultural issues and the complexities of cultural issues and the complexities of cultural issues and the complexities of cultural identities, but I am saying cultural identities, but I am saying cultural identities, but I am saying that the Bible becomes our number one that the Bible becomes our number one that the Bible becomes our number one source, our guidepost to know how to source, our guidepost to know how to source, our guidepost to know how to operate in the world. When I don't know operate in the world. When I don't know operate in the world. When I don't know how to handle immigration, I can look to how to handle immigration, I can look to how to handle immigration, I can look to God's word and see how I as a citizen God's word and see how I as a citizen God's word and see how I as a citizen can make room to care for the stranger. can make room to care for the stranger. can make room to care for the stranger. Even as I do my best to uphold the laws Even as I do my best to uphold the laws Even as I do my best to uphold the laws of our country, I I still can of our country, I I still can of our country, I I still can demonstrate care. So, I think the demonstrate care. So, I think the demonstrate care. So, I think the challenge has become sometimes our challenge has become sometimes our challenge has become sometimes our ideological identities have overtaken ideological identities have overtaken ideological identities have overtaken our biblical ones. And I do believe that our biblical ones. And I do believe that our biblical ones. And I do believe that it is time now for us to find our it is time now for us to find our it is time now for us to find our biblical identities. And within a biblical identities. And within a biblical identities. And within a biblical identity is grace. Grace to biblical identity is grace. Grace to biblical identity is grace. Grace to say, I don't have it right all the time. say, I don't have it right all the time. say, I don't have it right all the time. Grace to say, I believe strongly on this Grace to say, I believe strongly on this Grace to say, I believe strongly on this and I'm still open to hearing what the and I'm still open to hearing what the and I'm still open to hearing what the other side, so to speak, thinks. So, I I other side, so to speak, thinks. So, I I other side, so to speak, thinks. So, I I really really really I will we will wear ourselves out trying I will we will wear ourselves out trying I will we will wear ourselves out trying to be everything the culture requires to be everything the culture requires to be everything the culture requires and trying to appease every camp. But, and trying to appease every camp. But, and trying to appease every camp. But, it is life-giving to find ourselves, our it is life-giving to find ourselves, our it is life-giving to find ourselves, our identities in Christ. And that, I think, identities in Christ. And that, I think, identities in Christ. And that, I think, has to be an authentic pursuit.

has to be an authentic pursuit. has to be an authentic pursuit. So, I want to get more into ideas and uh So, I want to get more into ideas and uh So, I want to get more into ideas and uh some of the the the views that you have. some of the the the views that you have. some of the the the views that you have. But, uh before you get there, I just got But, uh before you get there, I just got But, uh before you get there, I just got to ask you about the business model. I to ask you about the business model. I to ask you about the business model. I mean, the fact that there is a mean, the fact that there is a mean, the fact that there is a Christianity today is probably still Christianity today is probably still Christianity today is probably still semi-miraculous. semi-miraculous. semi-miraculous. Uh if you look at all of the traditional Uh if you look at all of the traditional Uh if you look at all of the traditional publications, so to speak, that have publications, so to speak, that have publications, so to speak, that have died, just the business model collapses. died, just the business model collapses. died, just the business model collapses. I mean, everything from BuzzFeed to The I mean, everything from BuzzFeed to The I mean, everything from BuzzFeed to The New York Times is Well, they're having a New York Times is Well, they're having a New York Times is Well, they're having a bit of a resurgence right now. But, a bit of a resurgence right now. But, a bit of a resurgence right now. But, a lot of papers have shut. Uh you look at lot of papers have shut. Uh you look at lot of papers have shut. Uh you look at the number of magazines. I mean, there's the number of magazines. I mean, there's the number of magazines. I mean, there's hardly magazines anymore, right? hardly magazines anymore, right? hardly magazines anymore, right? And And And what are you What are the challenges? what are you What are the challenges? what are you What are the challenges? And then, why has Christianity today And then, why has Christianity today And then, why has Christianity today survived and is like looking forward to survived and is like looking forward to survived and is like looking forward to a new chapter? What can we learn from a new chapter? What can we learn from a new chapter? What can we learn from that? Yeah. that? Yeah. that? Yeah. I mean, where do you begin with the I mean, where do you begin with the I mean, where do you begin with the challenges that You named some of them. challenges that You named some of them. challenges that You named some of them. We are not our the way that we subscribe We are not our the way that we subscribe We are not our the way that we subscribe to things has changed. We subscribe to to things has changed. We subscribe to to things has changed. We subscribe to things that feed us what we want. So my things that feed us what we want. So my things that feed us what we want. So my Netflix subscription is valid because I Netflix subscription is valid because I Netflix subscription is valid because I get to watch what I want, but my get to watch what I want, but my get to watch what I want, but my subscription to cable news is invalid subscription to cable news is invalid subscription to cable news is invalid because it only feeds me stuff that I because it only feeds me stuff that I because it only feeds me stuff that I don't always want to hear. So we have a don't always want to hear. So we have a don't always want to hear. So we have a subscription model challenge. We have a subscription model challenge. We have a subscription model challenge. We have a news challenge going back to your news challenge going back to your news challenge going back to your algorithm. People only want to hear what algorithm. People only want to hear what algorithm. People only want to hear what either pleases them or outrages them.

either pleases them or outrages them. either pleases them or outrages them. And And if it outrages them, then our And And if it outrages them, then our And And if it outrages them, then our cancel culture suggests you can't be cancel culture suggests you can't be cancel culture suggests you can't be seen continuing to give or subscribe to seen continuing to give or subscribe to seen continuing to give or subscribe to something when there's that one article something when there's that one article something when there's that one article that you didn't like. You add to that that you didn't like. You add to that that you didn't like. You add to that the headwinds of paper media which you the headwinds of paper media which you the headwinds of paper media which you mentioned. You know, how do you sustain mentioned. You know, how do you sustain mentioned. You know, how do you sustain paper and print in a digital world? The paper and print in a digital world? The paper and print in a digital world? The print we have research that shows that print we have research that shows that print we have research that shows that print is going down, digital is print is going down, digital is print is going down, digital is increasing, increasing, increasing, kind of choose your own news on social kind of choose your own news on social kind of choose your own news on social media platforms, and WhatsApp is media platforms, and WhatsApp is media platforms, and WhatsApp is preferred over news that's fed to you. preferred over news that's fed to you. preferred over news that's fed to you. So all of these are headwinds, but where So all of these are headwinds, but where So all of these are headwinds, but where is our meat? Our meat is in the fact is our meat? Our meat is in the fact is our meat? Our meat is in the fact that CT is trusted. We We had an outside that CT is trusted. We We had an outside that CT is trusted. We We had an outside researcher share with us researcher share with us researcher share with us information about the credibility information about the credibility information about the credibility aspect, and even when pastors do not aspect, and even when pastors do not aspect, and even when pastors do not agree with CT, they still believe that agree with CT, they still believe that agree with CT, they still believe that CT is credible, and I think that's CT is credible, and I think that's CT is credible, and I think that's working in our favor in 101 different working in our favor in 101 different working in our favor in 101 different ways. ways. ways. And maybe we've half answered this And maybe we've half answered this And maybe we've half answered this already, but how do you already, but how do you already, but how do you How do you maintain credibility in How do you maintain credibility in How do you maintain credibility in today's age?

today's age? today's age? >> You're asking questions. I love these >> You're asking questions. I love these >> You're asking questions. I love these questions because these are questions questions because these are questions questions because these are questions we're asking in our strategic reframing we're asking in our strategic reframing we're asking in our strategic reframing process right now. How do you maintain process right now. How do you maintain process right now. How do you maintain credibility in an AI-driven world where credibility in an AI-driven world where credibility in an AI-driven world where you're always second-guessing, is it you're always second-guessing, is it you're always second-guessing, is it true? Well, this is where our legacy true? Well, this is where our legacy true? Well, this is where our legacy plays in, but this is also where the art plays in, but this is also where the art plays in, but this is also where the art of journalism plays in. We have trained of journalism plays in. We have trained of journalism plays in. We have trained journalists for a reason. We We hire journalists for a reason. We We hire journalists for a reason. We We hire people who know the art and the finesse people who know the art and the finesse people who know the art and the finesse of checking sources and verifying data of checking sources and verifying data of checking sources and verifying data before it's published. So, that before it's published. So, that before it's published. So, that credibility goes a long way, especially credibility goes a long way, especially credibility goes a long way, especially as you think about like trying to figure as you think about like trying to figure as you think about like trying to figure out what's real in the world. Um our out what's real in the world. Um our out what's real in the world. Um our credibility has helped us. Now, the credibility has helped us. Now, the credibility has helped us. Now, the platforms and the models, print versus platforms and the models, print versus platforms and the models, print versus digital, this is what we're working digital, this is what we're working digital, this is what we're working through now. And we're trying to assess through now. And we're trying to assess through now. And we're trying to assess the risks and the losses that, you know, the risks and the losses that, you know, the risks and the losses that, you know, there's one perspective. As I was there's one perspective. As I was there's one perspective. As I was walking in today, somebody was like, walking in today, somebody was like, walking in today, somebody was like, "You know, I think if if your print went "You know, I think if if your print went "You know, I think if if your print went away, I would just stop subscribing away, I would just stop subscribing away, I would just stop subscribing altogether." Same day. Same day. Today, altogether." Same day. Same day. Today, altogether." Same day. Same day. Today, someone else says, "You know, I just someone else says, "You know, I just someone else says, "You know, I just don't even know why you guys are doing don't even know why you guys are doing don't even know why you guys are doing print anymore. The whole world is going print anymore. The whole world is going print anymore. The whole world is going digital. I don't even read the digital. I don't even read the digital. I don't even read the magazine." So, magazine." So, magazine." So, it's like our conversation about the it's like our conversation about the it's like our conversation about the middle. We are living in a time where middle. We are living in a time where middle. We are living in a time where every choice will have a consequence, every choice will have a consequence, every choice will have a consequence, and you cannot avoid all the and you cannot avoid all the and you cannot avoid all the consequences. But, you will have to consequences. But, you will have to consequences. But, you will have to stand firm on what you believe God is stand firm on what you believe God is stand firm on what you believe God is calling you to do. And that's what we're calling you to do. And that's what we're calling you to do. And that's what we're actively discerning right now.

actively discerning right now. actively discerning right now. Yeah, so as far as the business model Yeah, so as far as the business model Yeah, so as far as the business model goes, I mean, just on trust and goes, I mean, just on trust and goes, I mean, just on trust and credibility, I mean, one of the credibility, I mean, one of the credibility, I mean, one of the dialogues we have inside with my small dialogues we have inside with my small dialogues we have inside with my small team is team is team is basically, trust is our brand. And every basically, trust is our brand. And every basically, trust is our brand. And every interview, every conversation, interview, every conversation, interview, every conversation, everything I air, every email I send, everything I air, every email I send, everything I air, every email I send, every post we send out, we're either every post we send out, we're either every post we send out, we're either building or eroding trust. And I really building or eroding trust. And I really building or eroding trust. And I really think that is something that is think that is something that is think that is something that is AI-proof, at least in the short term. AI-proof, at least in the short term. AI-proof, at least in the short term. Is like, you know, I want to be a Is like, you know, I want to be a Is like, you know, I want to be a trusted source. And that means that trusted source. And that means that trusted source. And that means that people know that within a framework people know that within a framework people know that within a framework I'm going to try to bring them the best I'm going to try to bring them the best I'm going to try to bring them the best conversations I have. I'm not going to conversations I have. I'm not going to conversations I have. I'm not going to go to the extremes. I'm not going to go to the extremes. I'm not going to go to the extremes. I'm not going to sell my soul to get more likes or get sell my soul to get more likes or get sell my soul to get more likes or get more more more views or downloads, at least what I views or downloads, at least what I views or downloads, at least what I would perceive as selling my soul. So, I would perceive as selling my soul. So, I would perceive as selling my soul. So, I I can see I can definitely see that, and I can see I can definitely see that, and I can see I can definitely see that, and I think that's a way forward for I think that's a way forward for I think that's a way forward for churches and for pastors. It's like at churches and for pastors. It's like at churches and for pastors. It's like at the end of the day, you got to you got the end of the day, you got to you got the end of the day, you got to you got to figure out what is trust, what's your to figure out what is trust, what's your to figure out what is trust, what's your relationship to God, and then who do you relationship to God, and then who do you relationship to God, and then who do you want trusting you? Because you can get want trusting you? Because you can get want trusting you? Because you can get people on people on people on the crazy fringes to trust you because the crazy fringes to trust you because the crazy fringes to trust you because they're in some wormhole somewhere on they're in some wormhole somewhere on they're in some wormhole somewhere on the internet, but I'm like I think most the internet, but I'm like I think most the internet, but I'm like I think most people are somewhere people are somewhere people are somewhere reason in in the in the middle reason in in the in the middle reason in in the in the middle reasonability. And I would like to have reasonability. And I would like to have reasonability. And I would like to have their trust. That would be my thing. And their trust. That would be my thing. And their trust. That would be my thing. And I think we're very similar that way. But I think we're very similar that way. But I think we're very similar that way. But the business model traditionally has the business model traditionally has the business model traditionally has been subscription and ads. And as been subscription and ads. And as been subscription and ads. And as subscriptions go down, a lot of people subscriptions go down, a lot of people subscriptions go down, a lot of people like a lot of websites now like a lot of websites now like a lot of websites now you got so many pop-ups. It's like I'm you got so many pop-ups. It's like I'm you got so many pop-ups. It's like I'm three lines into this and I've got 17

three lines into this and I've got 17 three lines into this and I've got 17 pop-ups and two opt-in forms. And even pop-ups and two opt-in forms. And even pop-ups and two opt-in forms. And even if you're trying to shop now, it's like if you're trying to shop now, it's like if you're trying to shop now, it's like no, I'm not going to give you my email. no, I'm not going to give you my email. no, I'm not going to give you my email. I will pay 15% more so I don't get this. I will pay 15% more so I don't get this. I will pay 15% more so I don't get this. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I don't need the sale. Like or I'm not >> I don't need the sale. Like or I'm not >> I don't need the sale. Like or I'm not going to buy it. One of the two, right? going to buy it. One of the two, right? going to buy it. One of the two, right? So when you think about the business So when you think about the business So when you think about the business model, what are you looking at in terms model, what are you looking at in terms model, what are you looking at in terms of sustainability? Cuz this is a real of sustainability? Cuz this is a real of sustainability? Cuz this is a real issue for a lot of organizations right issue for a lot of organizations right issue for a lot of organizations right now, particularly legacy organizations. now, particularly legacy organizations. now, particularly legacy organizations. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. The way we've been thinking about it is The way we've been thinking about it is The way we've been thinking about it is with levers. So we have three core with levers. So we have three core with levers. So we have three core levers that we get to kind of customize levers that we get to kind of customize levers that we get to kind of customize for our business model and for our for our business model and for our for our business model and for our sustainability. The first is revenue sustainability. The first is revenue sustainability. The first is revenue through philanthropy. Now as a ministry, through philanthropy. Now as a ministry, through philanthropy. Now as a ministry, we have we've been able to thrive on the we have we've been able to thrive on the we have we've been able to thrive on the generosity of some really amazing generosity of some really amazing generosity of some really amazing donors. And this again going back to our donors. And this again going back to our donors. And this again going back to our history because history is so important history because history is so important history because history is so important to help us understand where we are to help us understand where we are to help us understand where we are today. 1956, Billy Graham says, "I want today. 1956, Billy Graham says, "I want today. 1956, Billy Graham says, "I want to start this magazine and I want to to start this magazine and I want to to start this magazine and I want to give it away to every pastor in give it away to every pastor in give it away to every pastor in America." So he gives away 20,000 issues America." So he gives away 20,000 issues America." So he gives away 20,000 issues and then he gets others to buy other and then he gets others to buy other and then he gets others to buy other copies. Well, two years in, he's about copies. Well, two years in, he's about copies. Well, two years in, he's about to be bankrupt. They have a significant, to be bankrupt. They have a significant, to be bankrupt. They have a significant, you know, model problem. They didn't you know, model problem. They didn't you know, model problem. They didn't test the market to see if people test the market to see if people test the market to see if people actually wanted to buy it. So they have actually wanted to buy it. So they have actually wanted to buy it. So they have to go to Mr. Pew himself, and Mr. Pew in to go to Mr. Pew himself, and Mr. Pew in to go to Mr. Pew himself, and Mr. Pew in the early '50s gives Christianity the early '50s gives Christianity the early '50s gives Christianity >> Mr. Pew himself?

>> Mr. Pew himself? >> Mr. Pew himself? >> Yes, so I like I I I want to say first >> Yes, so I like I I I want to say first >> Yes, so I like I I I want to say first name Pew. name Pew. name Pew. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I've got to I didn't know that. Okay, >> I've got to I didn't know that. Okay, >> I've got to I didn't know that. Okay, fair. Pew was a person. Yeah, didn't fair. Pew was a person. Yeah, didn't fair. Pew was a person. Yeah, didn't know that. Good Good for him. know that. Good Good for him. know that. Good Good for him. >> is a is a product of the person. >> is a is a product of the person. >> is a is a product of the person. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> The The philanthropic Mr. Pew uh gave CT >> The The philanthropic Mr. Pew uh gave CT >> The The philanthropic Mr. Pew uh gave CT a a grant of $150,000, which is a lot of a a grant of $150,000, which is a lot of a a grant of $150,000, which is a lot of money in the '50s. money in the '50s. money in the '50s. >> multiply that by five, six, I don't >> multiply that by five, six, I don't >> multiply that by five, six, I don't know. know. know. >> And then of course what happens? Well, >> And then of course what happens? Well, >> And then of course what happens? Well, the the people who don't like Pew start the the people who don't like Pew start the the people who don't like Pew start to rise up. Is he even a Christian? How to rise up. Is he even a Christian? How to rise up. Is he even a Christian? How dare you accept money from that guy? You dare you accept money from that guy? You dare you accept money from that guy? You know, internally know, internally know, internally >> telling me nothing has changed. Okay. >> telling me nothing has changed. Okay. >> telling me nothing has changed. Okay. History repeats itself. [laughter] History repeats itself. [laughter] History repeats itself. [laughter] It rhymes. So, in the early stages, It rhymes. So, in the early stages, It rhymes. So, in the early stages, Graham is trying to figure out what's Graham is trying to figure out what's Graham is trying to figure out what's our what's our mix? What's the right mix our what's our mix? What's the right mix our what's our mix? What's the right mix between philanthro- philanthropy and between philanthro- philanthropy and between philanthro- philanthropy and subscriptions? Today, we're thinking subscriptions? Today, we're thinking subscriptions? Today, we're thinking through that as well. So, on our revenue through that as well. So, on our revenue through that as well. So, on our revenue side, we have philanthropy, and we have side, we have philanthropy, and we have side, we have philanthropy, and we have subscriptions, and we have advertising. subscriptions, and we have advertising. subscriptions, and we have advertising. We also have resources like our Lent and We also have resources like our Lent and We also have resources like our Lent and devotional, Advent devotional. So, we're devotional, Advent devotional. So, we're devotional, Advent devotional. So, we're trying to figure out the right mix. Um trying to figure out the right mix. Um trying to figure out the right mix. Um there will always be a need for there will always be a need for there will always be a need for generosity through philanthropy. Um it's generosity through philanthropy. Um it's generosity through philanthropy. Um it's one of the ways that we get to dream and one of the ways that we get to dream and one of the ways that we get to dream and to anticipate things that we don't to anticipate things that we don't to anticipate things that we don't currently do. Um but that shouldn't take currently do. Um but that shouldn't take currently do. Um but that shouldn't take the place of our earned income through the place of our earned income through the place of our earned income through subscriptions and advertising. So, we're subscriptions and advertising. So, we're subscriptions and advertising. So, we're thinking through that. And then the thinking through that. And then the thinking through that. And then the third layer, so levers. Philanthropy, third layer, so levers. Philanthropy, third layer, so levers. Philanthropy, earned revenue, but the other lever is earned revenue, but the other lever is earned revenue, but the other lever is expenses.

expenses. expenses. How do we navigate and steward our How do we navigate and steward our How do we navigate and steward our expenses in a way that keeps us around expenses in a way that keeps us around expenses in a way that keeps us around for a long time? Um I think it's easy for a long time? Um I think it's easy for a long time? Um I think it's easy for nonprofits to over and exceed your for nonprofits to over and exceed your for nonprofits to over and exceed your expenses because expenses because expenses because it's expensive to hire to hire people it's expensive to hire to hire people it's expensive to hire to hire people these days. It's expensive to get these days. It's expensive to get these days. It's expensive to get equipment and technology. And while we equipment and technology. And while we equipment and technology. And while we are fully remote, and what we've learned are fully remote, and what we've learned are fully remote, and what we've learned in the fully remote world is that too in the fully remote world is that too in the fully remote world is that too can be expensive. Renting office space can be expensive. Renting office space can be expensive. Renting office space is expensive, keeping, you know, is expensive, keeping, you know, is expensive, keeping, you know, computers clean is expensive. So, we're computers clean is expensive. So, we're computers clean is expensive. So, we're trying to ensure that we calibrate these trying to ensure that we calibrate these trying to ensure that we calibrate these three levers for a business model that three levers for a business model that three levers for a business model that makes sense. And this is active work makes sense. And this is active work makes sense. And this is active work that we're doing now with a great team that we're doing now with a great team that we're doing now with a great team of highly qualified leaders and experts of highly qualified leaders and experts of highly qualified leaders and experts on the outside. I feel very comfortable on the outside. I feel very comfortable on the outside. I feel very comfortable that we'll find the right mix. So, that we'll find the right mix. So, that we'll find the right mix. So, financial pressure is something almost financial pressure is something almost financial pressure is something almost everybody who listens to this podcast everybody who listens to this podcast everybody who listens to this podcast faces, whether that's organizationally faces, whether that's organizationally faces, whether that's organizationally or personally. And what a lot of legacy or personally. And what a lot of legacy or personally. And what a lot of legacy organizations like CT have done is you organizations like CT have done is you organizations like CT have done is you look at their quote newsroom look at their quote newsroom look at their quote newsroom 30 years ago and their quote newsroom or 30 years ago and their quote newsroom or 30 years ago and their quote newsroom or or, you know, journalists today, or, you know, journalists today, or, you know, journalists today, it's been gutted. It's like there's two it's been gutted. It's like there's two it's been gutted. It's like there's two reporters, and they're reporting on reporters, and they're reporting on reporters, and they're reporting on everything, and they're overworked and everything, and they're overworked and everything, and they're overworked and underpaid and stressed. Yeah. How, and I underpaid and stressed. Yeah. How, and I underpaid and stressed. Yeah. How, and I know you're 4 months in, but how has you know you're 4 months in, but how has you know you're 4 months in, but how has you have you will you have you will you have you will you guard against that gutting? And, you guard against that gutting? And, you guard against that gutting? And, you know, I'm trying to help churches with know, I'm trying to help churches with know, I'm trying to help churches with that because that because that because >> That's right. if donations dry up, it's >> That's right. if donations dry up, it's >> That's right. if donations dry up, it's like, okay, you're gutted, and you just

like, okay, you're gutted, and you just like, okay, you're gutted, and you just overwork and underpay a staff. That's overwork and underpay a staff. That's overwork and underpay a staff. That's not a recipe for longevity. That's so not a recipe for longevity. That's so not a recipe for longevity. That's so true. I mean, you're talking about real true. I mean, you're talking about real true. I mean, you're talking about real challenges. Um I had a conversation challenges. Um I had a conversation challenges. Um I had a conversation yesterday with a friend and advisor that yesterday with a friend and advisor that yesterday with a friend and advisor that really kind of helped me with this really kind of helped me with this really kind of helped me with this because there are times where you do because there are times where you do because there are times where you do have to trim. I get that. And I I've have to trim. I get that. And I I've have to trim. I get that. And I I've heard someone say every nonprofit has a heard someone say every nonprofit has a heard someone say every nonprofit has a an employee tithe. 10% of your staff is an employee tithe. 10% of your staff is an employee tithe. 10% of your staff is just nice people that should have been just nice people that should have been just nice people that should have been gone 15 years ago, but they're nice. gone 15 years ago, but they're nice. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yes, every organization's going to have Yes, every organization's going to have Yes, every organization's going to have to cut the tithe. You're going to I know to cut the tithe. You're going to I know to cut the tithe. You're going to I know Joe is a nice guy, and he's been sitting Joe is a nice guy, and he's been sitting Joe is a nice guy, and he's been sitting in the same place doing the same thing in the same place doing the same thing in the same place doing the same thing for 25 years, but he's going to have to for 25 years, but he's going to have to for 25 years, but he's going to have to go. I I get that. go. I I get that. go. I I get that. >> Right. Um but when you get down to the >> Right. Um but when you get down to the >> Right. Um but when you get down to the muscle, I think this is where our faith muscle, I think this is where our faith muscle, I think this is where our faith steps in. steps in. steps in. And if we have three levers, then just And if we have three levers, then just And if we have three levers, then just because the revenue isn't coming in the because the revenue isn't coming in the because the revenue isn't coming in the way that you want or the expenses are way that you want or the expenses are way that you want or the expenses are high, doesn't mean that you have to give high, doesn't mean that you have to give high, doesn't mean that you have to give up. I am We are trusting God for a up. I am We are trusting God for a up. I am We are trusting God for a vision that cultivates the right donors.

vision that cultivates the right donors. vision that cultivates the right donors. And my grandmother used to say, "Good And my grandmother used to say, "Good And my grandmother used to say, "Good meat makes its own gravy." I think if meat makes its own gravy." I think if meat makes its own gravy." I think if you have a good product, if you have a you have a good product, if you have a you have a good product, if you have a core strong offering, then the gravy core strong offering, then the gravy core strong offering, then the gravy will come. The will come. The will come. The The donors will come. The investments The donors will come. The investments The donors will come. The investments will come. Where we fall into risk is will come. Where we fall into risk is will come. Where we fall into risk is when we start to cut at the muscle and when we start to cut at the muscle and when we start to cut at the muscle and are no longer able to fulfill the are no longer able to fulfill the are no longer able to fulfill the mission, well, then we might as well mission, well, then we might as well mission, well, then we might as well start planning gracefully to sing the start planning gracefully to sing the start planning gracefully to sing the right song on the Titanic as it goes right song on the Titanic as it goes right song on the Titanic as it goes down. Mhm. I do not believe I have been down. Mhm. I do not believe I have been down. Mhm. I do not believe I have been called to funeralize the Titanic. I called to funeralize the Titanic. I called to funeralize the Titanic. I believe believe believe I have been called to develop a vision I have been called to develop a vision I have been called to develop a vision that is so meaty, so substantive, so so that is so meaty, so substantive, so so that is so meaty, so substantive, so so compelling that people want to be part compelling that people want to be part compelling that people want to be part of it. And that, I think, is the unique of it. And that, I think, is the unique of it. And that, I think, is the unique job of the CEO in partnership with the job of the CEO in partnership with the job of the CEO in partnership with the board to come up with a compelling board to come up with a compelling board to come up with a compelling vision and then to incentivize giving in vision and then to incentivize giving in vision and then to incentivize giving in a way that says, "Whether you're a a way that says, "Whether you're a a way that says, "Whether you're a subscriber or a donor or an intercessor, subscriber or a donor or an intercessor, subscriber or a donor or an intercessor, you want to be part of what we're doing you want to be part of what we're doing you want to be part of what we're doing here." here." here." Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know, I've know, I've know, I've experience in the church and everything.

experience in the church and everything. experience in the church and everything. It's just mission first and It's just mission first and It's just mission first and >> Yes. somebody once said, "Vision >> Yes. somebody once said, "Vision >> Yes. somebody once said, "Vision precedes resources." I think that's precedes resources." I think that's precedes resources." I think that's true. Yeah. And if you help enough true. Yeah. And if you help enough true. Yeah. And if you help enough people, eventually you'll figure out the people, eventually you'll figure out the people, eventually you'll figure out the financial model. financial model. financial model. So, it's just a question of of getting So, it's just a question of of getting So, it's just a question of of getting heard in the midst of it. But, it's heard in the midst of it. But, it's heard in the midst of it. But, it's getting harder and I'll I'll leave it at getting harder and I'll I'll leave it at getting harder and I'll I'll leave it at this this this for for for moderate non-extreme voices to be heard. moderate non-extreme voices to be heard. moderate non-extreme voices to be heard. And I think we need more of them in the And I think we need more of them in the And I think we need more of them in the church. So, I really applaud what you're church. So, I really applaud what you're church. So, I really applaud what you're doing. Want to get to a few ideas that doing. Want to get to a few ideas that doing. Want to get to a few ideas that you have shared you have shared you have shared in different platforms that I find in different platforms that I find in different platforms that I find helpful. You make the argument that helpful. You make the argument that helpful. You make the argument that Christianity is in crisis. Christianity is in crisis. Christianity is in crisis. What do you mean by that? Where where is What do you mean by that? Where where is What do you mean by that? Where where is the crisis? How is it the crisis? How is it the crisis? How is it in a crisis? in a crisis? in a crisis? >> Yeah. I mean there's crisis everywhere. >> Yeah. I mean there's crisis everywhere. >> Yeah. I mean there's crisis everywhere. Everywhere you look you'll find crisis, Everywhere you look you'll find crisis, Everywhere you look you'll find crisis, but specifically but specifically but specifically I see the pain points in discipleship I see the pain points in discipleship I see the pain points in discipleship and leadership. and leadership. and leadership. And you know, the question has been And you know, the question has been And you know, the question has been asked, "Well, do you have a leadership asked, "Well, do you have a leadership asked, "Well, do you have a leadership problem because you have a discipleship problem because you have a discipleship problem because you have a discipleship problem or do you have a discipleship problem or do you have a discipleship problem or do you have a discipleship problem because you have a leadership problem because you have a leadership problem because you have a leadership problem?" Yes. Yes.

problem?" Yes. Yes. problem?" Yes. Yes. I think the crisis comes in we have lost I think the crisis comes in we have lost I think the crisis comes in we have lost the built-in framework of discipleship. the built-in framework of discipleship. the built-in framework of discipleship. When Sunday school is gone and when life When Sunday school is gone and when life When Sunday school is gone and when life groups in person go away, now you've got groups in person go away, now you've got groups in person go away, now you've got a struggle to find the right way to a struggle to find the right way to a struggle to find the right way to disciple people. And we are trying to disciple people. And we are trying to disciple people. And we are trying to disciple people in an age where the disciple people in an age where the disciple people in an age where the buffet is grand. buffet is grand. buffet is grand. We can sit and listen to every Carey We can sit and listen to every Carey We can sit and listen to every Carey Nieuwhof podcast there is and read every Nieuwhof podcast there is and read every Nieuwhof podcast there is and read every book and then we're going to go on book and then we're going to go on book and then we're going to go on YouTube and undoubtedly we're going to YouTube and undoubtedly we're going to YouTube and undoubtedly we're going to find somebody selling a prayer cloth find somebody selling a prayer cloth find somebody selling a prayer cloth that says you can be healed for $19.99. that says you can be healed for $19.99. that says you can be healed for $19.99. We're we're going to sit and listen to a We're we're going to sit and listen to a We're we're going to sit and listen to a pastor who is pouring their heart out pastor who is pouring their heart out pastor who is pouring their heart out trying to help us to grow in God and trying to help us to grow in God and trying to help us to grow in God and then we're going to go to a store and then we're going to go to a store and then we're going to go to a store and buy some sage to clear the spirits in buy some sage to clear the spirits in buy some sage to clear the spirits in our house. So, this is this is the our house. So, this is this is the our house. So, this is this is the landscape of discipleship and I applaud landscape of discipleship and I applaud landscape of discipleship and I applaud churches and pastors who are doing churches and pastors who are doing churches and pastors who are doing everything they can to try to disciple everything they can to try to disciple everything they can to try to disciple people because leadership and people because leadership and people because leadership and discipleship go hand in hand. We I've discipleship go hand in hand. We I've discipleship go hand in hand. We I've heard a lot of pastors with the angst of heard a lot of pastors with the angst of heard a lot of pastors with the angst of I don't know who to pass my church on I don't know who to pass my church on I don't know who to pass my church on to. I don't have anybody in the pipeline to. I don't have anybody in the pipeline to. I don't have anybody in the pipeline who's worthy or critical or studious or who's worthy or critical or studious or who's worthy or critical or studious or those kinds of things. Well, if you those kinds of things. Well, if you those kinds of things. Well, if you start discipling people really well, start discipling people really well, start discipling people really well, then the leaders will emerge. And then then the leaders will emerge. And then then the leaders will emerge. And then with the right leaders in today's day with the right leaders in today's day with the right leaders in today's day and age, I mean we've talked about this and age, I mean we've talked about this and age, I mean we've talked about this as well. The The appeal of the platform, as well. The The appeal of the platform, as well. The The appeal of the platform, the lure of of this lavish brand can

the lure of of this lavish brand can the lure of of this lavish brand can steal the soul of a leader. So, we've steal the soul of a leader. So, we've steal the soul of a leader. So, we've got to learn how to teach the value of got to learn how to teach the value of got to learn how to teach the value of the cross to people who want to lead the cross to people who want to lead the cross to people who want to lead well. I know you want Resurrection well. I know you want Resurrection well. I know you want Resurrection Crown, but first you carry your cross Crown, but first you carry your cross Crown, but first you carry your cross and the crown emerges from that, which and the crown emerges from that, which and the crown emerges from that, which requires humility. It requires a requires humility. It requires a requires humility. It requires a willingness to go where Jesus goes, willingness to go where Jesus goes, willingness to go where Jesus goes, which is not always in comfortable which is not always in comfortable which is not always in comfortable places. And it requires a willingness to places. And it requires a willingness to places. And it requires a willingness to take off anything that besets us, take off anything that besets us, take off anything that besets us, anything lay down anything that keeps anything lay down anything that keeps anything lay down anything that keeps people from knowing Christ and take on people from knowing Christ and take on people from knowing Christ and take on whatever it means to be present with whatever it means to be present with whatever it means to be present with Christ in culture. So, it's a lot, but I Christ in culture. So, it's a lot, but I Christ in culture. So, it's a lot, but I I think we can solve it. I think God can I think we can solve it. I think God can I think we can solve it. I think God can solve it, but yes, [clears throat] we do solve it, but yes, [clears throat] we do solve it, but yes, [clears throat] we do have crises. have crises. have crises. I don't write a lot of forwards to I don't write a lot of forwards to I don't write a lot of forwards to books, but when you approached me about books, but when you approached me about books, but when you approached me about nailing it, there were a number of ideas nailing it, there were a number of ideas nailing it, there were a number of ideas that really grabbed me. And so, I had that really grabbed me. And so, I had that really grabbed me. And so, I had the privilege of writing the forward to the privilege of writing the forward to the privilege of writing the forward to your book nailing it. And the phrase your book nailing it. And the phrase your book nailing it. And the phrase that haunts me is leadership is designed that haunts me is leadership is designed that haunts me is leadership is designed to kill you. to kill you. to kill you. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Such a great phrase. I don't get envy a >> Such a great phrase. I don't get envy a >> Such a great phrase. I don't get envy a lot these days, but I'm like, "Gosh, I lot these days, but I'm like, "Gosh, I lot these days, but I'm like, "Gosh, I wish I had thought of that." But then, wish I had thought of that." But then, wish I had thought of that." But then, way to go.

way to go. way to go. Leadership is designed to kill you. And Leadership is designed to kill you. And Leadership is designed to kill you. And in many ways, we're 800 and some odd in many ways, we're 800 and some odd in many ways, we're 800 and some odd episodes into this thing and that's a episodes into this thing and that's a episodes into this thing and that's a repeating theme is like it almost kills repeating theme is like it almost kills repeating theme is like it almost kills us over and over again. Leadership us over and over again. Leadership us over and over again. Leadership almost killed me. But you argue it from almost killed me. But you argue it from almost killed me. But you argue it from a different standpoint, which I think is a different standpoint, which I think is a different standpoint, which I think is good. Leadership is designed to kill good. Leadership is designed to kill good. Leadership is designed to kill you. It's not an accident. It's a thing. you. It's not an accident. It's a thing. you. It's not an accident. It's a thing. What do you mean by that? Leadership is What do you mean by that? Leadership is What do you mean by that? Leadership is designed to kill you? First of all, I designed to kill you? First of all, I designed to kill you? First of all, I almost get a little teary-eyed. I almost get a little teary-eyed. I almost get a little teary-eyed. I remember the day you said yes. I I mean, remember the day you said yes. I I mean, remember the day you said yes. I I mean, the Pentecostal charismatic in me just the Pentecostal charismatic in me just the Pentecostal charismatic in me just took off. took off. took off. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Praise God and shouting. My husband was >> Praise God and shouting. My husband was >> Praise God and shouting. My husband was like, "What's wrong?" I was like, "He like, "What's wrong?" I was like, "He like, "What's wrong?" I was like, "He said yes." said yes." said yes." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I've had moments like that, too. I was >> I've had moments like that, too. I was >> I've had moments like that, too. I was so honored. You know, when you're like so honored. You know, when you're like so honored. You know, when you're like you're putting out the fleece like, you're putting out the fleece like, you're putting out the fleece like, "God, is this real? Is this good? Is "God, is this real? Is this good? Is "God, is this real? Is this good? Is this real? Is this good?" And then God this real? Is this good?" And then God this real? Is this good?" And then God gives affirmation, you're like, "It gives affirmation, you're like, "It gives affirmation, you're like, "It works!" works!" works!" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's like great. >> It's like great. >> It's like great. >> I I just I thank God for your >> I I just I thank God for your >> I I just I thank God for your partnership in that. Um partnership in that. Um partnership in that. Um when I when I wrote that statement, I when I when I wrote that statement, I when I when I wrote that statement, I was hesitating because I heard a voice was hesitating because I heard a voice was hesitating because I heard a voice in my mind thinking uh saying, "Well, in my mind thinking uh saying, "Well, in my mind thinking uh saying, "Well, you're you're advocating for martyrdom."

you're you're advocating for martyrdom." you're you're advocating for martyrdom." And I've actually had a pastor say to And I've actually had a pastor say to And I've actually had a pastor say to me, you know, "You just want all of us me, you know, "You just want all of us me, you know, "You just want all of us to die." So that's where you just do to die." So that's where you just do to die." So that's where you just do that silent moment, you know, that silent moment, you know, that silent moment, you know, uh a quick pause and say, "What What uh a quick pause and say, "What What uh a quick pause and say, "What What actually I don't want that. Jesus Jesus actually I don't want that. Jesus Jesus actually I don't want that. Jesus Jesus wants that. Jesus did not call you to wants that. Jesus did not call you to wants that. Jesus did not call you to pick up your comforter and your comfy pick up your comforter and your comfy pick up your comforter and your comfy slippers and go stay in your luxury slippers and go stay in your luxury slippers and go stay in your luxury home. He called you to take up your home. He called you to take up your home. He called you to take up your cross. And if we lead well, then the you cross. And if we lead well, then the you cross. And if we lead well, then the you you think you are should crumple under you think you are should crumple under you think you are should crumple under the weight of who God says you are. If the weight of who God says you are. If the weight of who God says you are. If we lead well, then we ought to be we lead well, then we ought to be we lead well, then we ought to be shedding the ways of the flesh and the shedding the ways of the flesh and the shedding the ways of the flesh and the sins of the world in pursuit of sins of the world in pursuit of sins of the world in pursuit of something that is not us, but is fully something that is not us, but is fully something that is not us, but is fully God. So when I said leadership is God. So when I said leadership is God. So when I said leadership is designed to kill you, I meant leadership designed to kill you, I meant leadership designed to kill you, I meant leadership is designed to be the crucifying process is designed to be the crucifying process is designed to be the crucifying process of the flesh. So that what emerges from of the flesh. So that what emerges from of the flesh. So that what emerges from us might bring God glory and be good for us might bring God glory and be good for us might bring God glory and be good for the people we serve. But if you're going the people we serve. But if you're going the people we serve. But if you're going to lead and think you're taking to lead and think you're taking to lead and think you're taking everything with you, every view of everything with you, every view of everything with you, every view of yourself, every bit of your ego, every yourself, every bit of your ego, every yourself, every bit of your ego, every ounce of your power, you are going to be ounce of your power, you are going to be ounce of your power, you are going to be sorely mistaken. I have not talked to sorely mistaken. I have not talked to sorely mistaken. I have not talked to one leader who has said this is not true one leader who has said this is not true one leader who has said this is not true because it's been my experience so far.

because it's been my experience so far. because it's been my experience so far. The higher you go in the world, the The higher you go in the world, the The higher you go in the world, the lower you must get before the cross. lower you must get before the cross. lower you must get before the cross. And that's what I think good leadership And that's what I think good leadership And that's what I think good leadership suggests. It's designed to crucify the suggests. It's designed to crucify the suggests. It's designed to crucify the flesh so that Christ's spirit might lead flesh so that Christ's spirit might lead flesh so that Christ's spirit might lead in us and through us in ways that we in us and through us in ways that we in us and through us in ways that we could never lead on our own. could never lead on our own. could never lead on our own. So, you know, one of the we have so many So, you know, one of the we have so many So, you know, one of the we have so many secret missions here on the podcast, not secret missions here on the podcast, not secret missions here on the podcast, not secret at all, they're very public. But secret at all, they're very public. But secret at all, they're very public. But I mean that just storylines I keep I mean that just storylines I keep I mean that just storylines I keep coming back to again and again. coming back to again and again. coming back to again and again. I want to postulate a theory to you. If I want to postulate a theory to you. If I want to postulate a theory to you. If you do not allow leadership to kill you, you do not allow leadership to kill you, you do not allow leadership to kill you, to kill to kill to kill um um um the part of me that is selfish, that is the part of me that is selfish, that is the part of me that is selfish, that is sinful, that is all of the above. sinful, that is all of the above. sinful, that is all of the above. Is that how you end up in moral failure Is that how you end up in moral failure Is that how you end up in moral failure and toxic culture like Do you think and toxic culture like Do you think and toxic culture like Do you think there Do you see a link, a direct line there Do you see a link, a direct line there Do you see a link, a direct line >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> between the leaders who refuse to die to >> between the leaders who refuse to die to >> between the leaders who refuse to die to those things and and like I'm just those things and and like I'm just those things and and like I'm just curious what you see. curious what you see. curious what you see. I think there can be, but I think there I think there can be, but I think there I think there can be, but I think there are many ways to mess up.

are many ways to mess up. are many ways to mess up. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Okay, so >> Okay, so >> Okay, so I think to be clear I think to be clear I think to be clear the road to destruction is quite wide the road to destruction is quite wide the road to destruction is quite wide quite wide. quite wide. quite wide. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> All right. I think you're quoting >> All right. I think you're quoting >> All right. I think you're quoting someone well known there. Yeah. Yeah, someone well known there. Yeah. Yeah, someone well known there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean I think there's a exactly. Yeah. I mean I think there's a exactly. Yeah. I mean I think there's a part that's yes. part that's yes. part that's yes. The the worst part about not crucifying The the worst part about not crucifying The the worst part about not crucifying these things isn't just that you won't these things isn't just that you won't these things isn't just that you won't be successful because the truth is the be successful because the truth is the be successful because the truth is the world does applaud egotistical leaders. world does applaud egotistical leaders. world does applaud egotistical leaders. Yeah. The world does reward. Yeah. The world does reward. Yeah. The world does reward. Yes, the world rewards the things that Yes, the world rewards the things that Yes, the world rewards the things that we amp up in our flesh. I've seen it we amp up in our flesh. I've seen it we amp up in our flesh. I've seen it over and over. We've seen it over and over and over. We've seen it over and over and over. We've seen it over and over. So, that's why you know, this this over. So, that's why you know, this this over. So, that's why you know, this this walk toward Christ-like leadership is walk toward Christ-like leadership is walk toward Christ-like leadership is not a walk toward fame and promotion. not a walk toward fame and promotion. not a walk toward fame and promotion. You may You may get demoted if you're You may You may get demoted if you're You may You may get demoted if you're really serious about following Christ. really serious about following Christ. really serious about following Christ. But I think the road to toxic leadership But I think the road to toxic leadership But I think the road to toxic leadership happens internally and externally at the happens internally and externally at the happens internally and externally at the same time. It is the internal resistance same time. It is the internal resistance same time. It is the internal resistance to humility. It is the internal to humility. It is the internal to humility. It is the internal resistance to accountability. But then resistance to accountability. But then resistance to accountability. But then it's the external affirmation of our own it's the external affirmation of our own it's the external affirmation of our own resistance. So, resistance. So, resistance. So, it it's often a combination of two. It's it it's often a combination of two. It's it it's often a combination of two. It's a leader who says, "I am the brand."

a leader who says, "I am the brand." a leader who says, "I am the brand." which I've heard leaders say before. which I've heard leaders say before. which I've heard leaders say before. Um I was talking to a pastor has, you Um I was talking to a pastor has, you Um I was talking to a pastor has, you know, big billboard on the side and you know, big billboard on the side and you know, big billboard on the side and you know, I was just asking some questions know, I was just asking some questions know, I was just asking some questions about his ministry and he said, "Look, I about his ministry and he said, "Look, I about his ministry and he said, "Look, I put my face on the billboard and you see put my face on the billboard and you see put my face on the billboard and you see my voice on every uh sermon even when my voice on every uh sermon even when my voice on every uh sermon even when I'm not here. I pre-recorded Why? I'm not here. I pre-recorded Why? I'm not here. I pre-recorded Why? Because I am the brand." He said, "Our Because I am the brand." He said, "Our Because I am the brand." He said, "Our studies show it, our our surveys show studies show it, our our surveys show studies show it, our our surveys show it, they come for me. I am the brand." it, they come for me. I am the brand." it, they come for me. I am the brand." So how do you get there? Well, you get So how do you get there? Well, you get So how do you get there? Well, you get there with an internal thing that's there with an internal thing that's there with an internal thing that's affirmed externally. And that's where affirmed externally. And that's where affirmed externally. And that's where the danger comes because when the the danger comes because when the the danger comes because when the internal and the external are mirroring internal and the external are mirroring internal and the external are mirroring each other, there's very little room to each other, there's very little room to each other, there's very little room to hear the voice of God. Now the voice of hear the voice of God. Now the voice of hear the voice of God. Now the voice of God sounds like a minority voice, a God sounds like a minority voice, a God sounds like a minority voice, a slower voice. But even Elijah teaches us slower voice. But even Elijah teaches us slower voice. But even Elijah teaches us we have to hear the still small voice. we have to hear the still small voice. we have to hear the still small voice. We have to make room in our devotional We have to make room in our devotional We have to make room in our devotional lives to still hear the still small lives to still hear the still small lives to still hear the still small voice. voice. voice. Um so, you know, there are many ways to Um so, you know, there are many ways to Um so, you know, there are many ways to to toxic leadership and it can be to toxic leadership and it can be to toxic leadership and it can be rewarded, but not crucifying your flesh rewarded, but not crucifying your flesh rewarded, but not crucifying your flesh is one. Yeah. So that is a real tension is one. Yeah. So that is a real tension is one. Yeah. So that is a real tension in ministry as I know you know. Um in ministry as I know you know. Um in ministry as I know you know. Um you know, leading a church for 20 years, you know, leading a church for 20 years, you know, leading a church for 20 years, I heard that you are the brand, you're I heard that you are the brand, you're I heard that you are the brand, you're the reason people are here, and the reason people are here, and the reason people are here, and some of that on an objective level is some of that on an objective level is some of that on an objective level is true.

true. true. Like there if you're a terrible preacher Like there if you're a terrible preacher Like there if you're a terrible preacher or whatever, they're probably not going or whatever, they're probably not going or whatever, they're probably not going to come out at the level that they do if to come out at the level that they do if to come out at the level that they do if you're a great preacher. But I also was you're a great preacher. But I also was you're a great preacher. But I also was committed to building a church that committed to building a church that committed to building a church that outlived me, which is one of the reasons outlived me, which is one of the reasons outlived me, which is one of the reasons I tapped out early at 50, not waiting I tapped out early at 50, not waiting I tapped out early at 50, not waiting until I was later. And now the church is until I was later. And now the church is until I was later. And now the church is bigger and better and half the people bigger and better and half the people bigger and better and half the people have no idea who I am and I mean that's have no idea who I am and I mean that's have no idea who I am and I mean that's success. But I also lead the Carey success. But I also lead the Carey success. But I also lead the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I mean, Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I mean, Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I mean, I am the brand, right? So when you're I am the brand, right? So when you're I am the brand, right? So when you're when you're in that cuz it is a tension. when you're in that cuz it is a tension. when you're in that cuz it is a tension. I mean, I mean, I mean, how do you dissociate how do you dissociate how do you dissociate particularly in the church cuz this is a particularly in the church cuz this is a particularly in the church cuz this is a private company. You know, it's fine. private company. You know, it's fine. private company. You know, it's fine. You know, if it fails, so what? Not so You know, if it fails, so what? Not so You know, if it fails, so what? Not so what, but you know what I mean? Like what, but you know what I mean? Like what, but you know what I mean? Like there aren't the stakes. There are not there aren't the stakes. There are not there aren't the stakes. There are not the stakes Yeah. the stakes Yeah. the stakes Yeah. >> that there are if if a church fails or >> that there are if if a church fails or >> that there are if if a church fails or if you bring disrepute if you bring disrepute if you bring disrepute to the church and to the name of Jesus. to the church and to the name of Jesus. to the church and to the name of Jesus. I just see them as different categories. I just see them as different categories. I just see them as different categories. I'm still a steward, still responsible, I'm still a steward, still responsible, I'm still a steward, still responsible, but the stakes aren't quite as high. But but the stakes aren't quite as high. But but the stakes aren't quite as high. But if you're that charismatic leader and if you're that charismatic leader and if you're that charismatic leader and there's something about charismatic there's something about charismatic there's something about charismatic leadership leadership leadership that, you know, people have said to me that, you know, people have said to me that, you know, people have said to me since I was a teenager, "Wow, you're since I was a teenager, "Wow, you're since I was a teenager, "Wow, you're really charismatic." Not in a really charismatic." Not in a really charismatic." Not in a theological sense, but just in a ability theological sense, but just in a ability theological sense, but just in a ability to draw a crowd or whatever. And whether to draw a crowd or whatever. And whether to draw a crowd or whatever. And whether that's true or not is kind of that's true or not is kind of that's true or not is kind of irrelevant, but you have that kind of irrelevant, but you have that kind of irrelevant, but you have that kind of charismatic leadership. So how do you charismatic leadership. So how do you charismatic leadership. So how do you guard against that if that is how you're guard against that if that is how you're guard against that if that is how you're wired?

wired? wired? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. I think that's an excellent question, I think that's an excellent question, I think that's an excellent question, and it's it's two things. How do you and it's it's two things. How do you and it's it's two things. How do you guard against it if that's how you're guard against it if that's how you're guard against it if that's how you're wired, and how do you elevate the brand wired, and how do you elevate the brand wired, and how do you elevate the brand as an as a matter of stewardship when as an as a matter of stewardship when as an as a matter of stewardship when your name, your brand, your voice does your name, your brand, your voice does your name, your brand, your voice does appeal to people? I think this is the appeal to people? I think this is the appeal to people? I think this is the tension that we have to navigate, but tension that we have to navigate, but tension that we have to navigate, but the way to navigate it is before the the way to navigate it is before the the way to navigate it is before the cross. So I gave a couple of examples in cross. So I gave a couple of examples in cross. So I gave a couple of examples in the chapter on ego. I was talking about the chapter on ego. I was talking about the chapter on ego. I was talking about two examples. The one is the guy who two examples. The one is the guy who two examples. The one is the guy who says I am the brand, and then the other says I am the brand, and then the other says I am the brand, and then the other is a guy who has a is a guy who has a is a guy who has a an app company that I knew and was all an app company that I knew and was all an app company that I knew and was all white label, and he sold his app to white label, and he sold his app to white label, and he sold his app to everybody and said, "No logos, no egos. everybody and said, "No logos, no egos. everybody and said, "No logos, no egos. You guys just put your name on there." You guys just put your name on there." You guys just put your name on there." And he went out of business because And he went out of business because And he went out of business because nobody knew that he was the brand behind nobody knew that he was the brand behind nobody knew that he was the brand behind the brand. I've heard that. I'm going to the brand. I've heard that. I'm going to the brand. I've heard that. I'm going to write a book and there's not going to be write a book and there's not going to be write a book and there's not going to be an author. I'm like, "What?" Cuz I don't an author. I'm like, "What?" Cuz I don't an author. I'm like, "What?" Cuz I don't want to be the brand. I'm like, "I don't want to be the brand. I'm like, "I don't want to be the brand. I'm like, "I don't know I'm going to read that book, but know I'm going to read that book, but know I'm going to read that book, but fine." fine." fine." >> You know, when when I first when I first >> You know, when when I first when I first >> You know, when when I first when I first started preaching, I would I would started preaching, I would I would started preaching, I would I would repeat the words of my dad. He would repeat the words of my dad. He would repeat the words of my dad. He would say, "Hide me behind the cross, that say, "Hide me behind the cross, that say, "Hide me behind the cross, that there would be none of me and all of there would be none of me and all of there would be none of me and all of thee." And I remember this woman told me thee." And I remember this woman told me thee." And I remember this woman told me once, she said, "You know we can see once, she said, "You know we can see once, she said, "You know we can see you, right?"

you, right?" you, right?" >> [laughter] >> I know you want to be hidden, but uh >> I know you want to be hidden, but uh we see who you are. So, for me, the way we see who you are. So, for me, the way we see who you are. So, for me, the way to resolve the tension is to find to resolve the tension is to find to resolve the tension is to find ourselves deeply loved by God. When I am ourselves deeply loved by God. When I am ourselves deeply loved by God. When I am located and anchored in the love of God, located and anchored in the love of God, located and anchored in the love of God, then I don't have to over-assert my then I don't have to over-assert my then I don't have to over-assert my brand, my name, because I know I'm loved brand, my name, because I know I'm loved brand, my name, because I know I'm loved by God. And I don't have to lower myself by God. And I don't have to lower myself by God. And I don't have to lower myself in utter humility as if I don't exist, in utter humility as if I don't exist, in utter humility as if I don't exist, because I am loved by God. So, the the because I am loved by God. So, the the because I am loved by God. So, the the the downside of that is the calibration the downside of that is the calibration the downside of that is the calibration might change depending on where we are. might change depending on where we are. might change depending on where we are. Like you said, you might need to lean Like you said, you might need to lean Like you said, you might need to lean into the brand to do the podcast. You into the brand to do the podcast. You into the brand to do the podcast. You might need to step back from the brand might need to step back from the brand might need to step back from the brand to make room for for platforms. But to make room for for platforms. But to make room for for platforms. But either way, it isn't just the name and either way, it isn't just the name and either way, it isn't just the name and the picture and the face, it's the the picture and the face, it's the the picture and the face, it's the posture. The posture of the heart is posture. The posture of the heart is posture. The posture of the heart is what matters to God, and that ought to what matters to God, and that ought to what matters to God, and that ought to be what drives the work that we do. Not be what drives the work that we do. Not be what drives the work that we do. Not just I don't want to be seen, or I've just I don't want to be seen, or I've just I don't want to be seen, or I've got to be seen, but help me, God, to be got to be seen, but help me, God, to be got to be seen, but help me, God, to be seen in you, and let that drive the seen in you, and let that drive the seen in you, and let that drive the brand.

brand. brand. So, the list of things that need to be So, the list of things that need to be So, the list of things that need to be nailed, if I've got this right, power, nailed, if I've got this right, power, nailed, if I've got this right, power, ego, Yes. ego, Yes. ego, Yes. >> speed, Yes. performance, Mhm. >> speed, Yes. performance, Mhm. >> speed, Yes. performance, Mhm. perfection, Yes. perfection, Yes. perfection, Yes. >> loyalty, Yes. >> loyalty, Yes. >> loyalty, Yes. >> So, thanks for dismantling my world, >> So, thanks for dismantling my world, >> So, thanks for dismantling my world, first of all, first of all, first of all, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Nicole. I really appreciate that. >> Nicole. I really appreciate that. >> Nicole. I really appreciate that. >> own. I'm just extending the favor. >> own. I'm just extending the favor. >> own. I'm just extending the favor. Those are the things that actually would Those are the things that actually would Those are the things that actually would be ingredients to success. I mean, not be ingredients to success. I mean, not be ingredients to success. I mean, not ego necessarily or grab for power, but ego necessarily or grab for power, but ego necessarily or grab for power, but speed, performance, Yep. perfection, speed, performance, Yep. perfection, speed, performance, Yep. perfection, loyalty, scale. loyalty, scale. loyalty, scale. Um Um Um how do you crucify these? Does that mean how do you crucify these? Does that mean how do you crucify these? Does that mean everybody's slow, everybody's lazy, everybody's slow, everybody's lazy, everybody's slow, everybody's lazy, everyone's floppy, everyone's floppy, everyone's floppy, uh we're disloyal, and everything's uh we're disloyal, and everything's uh we're disloyal, and everything's small? Like, there are circles. I've small? Like, there are circles. I've small? Like, there are circles. I've been in circles of the church where been in circles of the church where been in circles of the church where those are values. It's like, "We're not those are values. It's like, "We're not those are values. It's like, "We're not fast, we're not big, we're just fast, we're not big, we're just fast, we're not big, we're just faithful." I'm like, "No, you're faithful." I'm like, "No, you're faithful." I'm like, "No, you're ineffective." So, ineffective." So, ineffective." So, how do you how do you handle that?

how do you how do you handle that? how do you how do you handle that? I I remember I had a conversation early I I remember I had a conversation early I I remember I had a conversation early on on on about the book and someone said to me, about the book and someone said to me, about the book and someone said to me, "You know, your book is very frustrating "You know, your book is very frustrating "You know, your book is very frustrating because it doesn't tell me what to do. because it doesn't tell me what to do. because it doesn't tell me what to do. It gives me basically both sides." I was It gives me basically both sides." I was It gives me basically both sides." I was like, "Wonderful. Praise God." like, "Wonderful. Praise God." like, "Wonderful. Praise God." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Because you know, part of our crucifying >> Because you know, part of our crucifying >> Because you know, part of our crucifying these things is we have to crucify how these things is we have to crucify how these things is we have to crucify how the world forces them to show up in our the world forces them to show up in our the world forces them to show up in our lives so that we can experience how God lives so that we can experience how God lives so that we can experience how God wants them to show up in our lives. Take wants them to show up in our lives. Take wants them to show up in our lives. Take loyalty, for example. If we were to make loyalty, for example. If we were to make loyalty, for example. If we were to make loyalty our lord, then we would only loyalty our lord, then we would only loyalty our lord, then we would only hire people who said yes to our ideas. hire people who said yes to our ideas. hire people who said yes to our ideas. We would only surround ourselves with We would only surround ourselves with We would only surround ourselves with people who were loyal to us personally, people who were loyal to us personally, people who were loyal to us personally, often at the expense of the mission, and often at the expense of the mission, and often at the expense of the mission, and we would miss the opportunity for we would miss the opportunity for we would miss the opportunity for innovation because we would only value innovation because we would only value innovation because we would only value people who are giving us the yes. people who are giving us the yes. people who are giving us the yes. I think scripture gives us a different I think scripture gives us a different I think scripture gives us a different paradigm. Paradigm. It's not that you paradigm. Paradigm. It's not that you paradigm. Paradigm. It's not that you shouldn't be loyal, it's that your shouldn't be loyal, it's that your shouldn't be loyal, it's that your loyalty to the kingdom and your loyalty loyalty to the kingdom and your loyalty loyalty to the kingdom and your loyalty to the mission of Christ supersedes all to the mission of Christ supersedes all to the mission of Christ supersedes all other loyalties. So, if I'm looking for other loyalties. So, if I'm looking for other loyalties. So, if I'm looking for loyal people, I shouldn't just be loyal people, I shouldn't just be loyal people, I shouldn't just be looking for people who like me. I should looking for people who like me. I should looking for people who like me. I should be looking for people who are so be looking for people who are so be looking for people who are so doggedly loyal to God and to the mission doggedly loyal to God and to the mission doggedly loyal to God and to the mission of Christ that they in love can tell me of Christ that they in love can tell me of Christ that they in love can tell me when I'm wrong.

when I'm wrong. when I'm wrong. That's That's a different way of being. That's That's a different way of being. That's That's a different way of being. Scale is another example. God is not Scale is another example. God is not Scale is another example. God is not looking for the better, faster, cheaper looking for the better, faster, cheaper looking for the better, faster, cheaper models. God is looking for us to steward models. God is looking for us to steward models. God is looking for us to steward what we have. Isn't this Matthew 25? what we have. Isn't this Matthew 25? what we have. Isn't this Matthew 25? It's the master giving different amounts It's the master giving different amounts It's the master giving different amounts to different people, and the master does to different people, and the master does to different people, and the master does not say from all of them, "I have given not say from all of them, "I have given not say from all of them, "I have given you two and five and 10. I want 100 from you two and five and 10. I want 100 from you two and five and 10. I want 100 from each of you." He's saying, "Steward what each of you." He's saying, "Steward what each of you." He's saying, "Steward what you have." The one who had two made you have." The one who had two made you have." The one who had two made four, the one who had five made 10. And four, the one who had five made 10. And four, the one who had five made 10. And then after they stewarded what they had, then after they stewarded what they had, then after they stewarded what they had, they were invited to take on more. And I they were invited to take on more. And I they were invited to take on more. And I think we automatically scale. Everything think we automatically scale. Everything think we automatically scale. Everything small should be big. If you have two small should be big. If you have two small should be big. If you have two services, you ought to have five. If you services, you ought to have five. If you services, you ought to have five. If you have five, you ought to have 10. Well, have five, you ought to have 10. Well, have five, you ought to have 10. Well, sometimes stewarding what you have might sometimes stewarding what you have might sometimes stewarding what you have might be a call to go deeper instead of just be a call to go deeper instead of just be a call to go deeper instead of just going broad. And I think if we were to going broad. And I think if we were to going broad. And I think if we were to really assess our ministries and take really assess our ministries and take really assess our ministries and take off the pressure of scale, then we get off the pressure of scale, then we get off the pressure of scale, then we get to see where God wants to move. There to see where God wants to move. There to see where God wants to move. There are times when God will call us to are times when God will call us to are times when God will call us to expand because you can't put another expand because you can't put another expand because you can't put another chair in the sanctuary or because you chair in the sanctuary or because you chair in the sanctuary or because you have to have another service. And then have to have another service. And then have to have another service. And then there are times when God says just, you there are times when God says just, you there are times when God says just, you know, pull back.

know, pull back. know, pull back. But if I'm stewarding what I have, I can But if I'm stewarding what I have, I can But if I'm stewarding what I have, I can rise and fall, I can expand and rise and fall, I can expand and rise and fall, I can expand and decrease, I can go deep and go wide, but decrease, I can go deep and go wide, but decrease, I can go deep and go wide, but I'm going at the pace of God. Mhm. I I'm going at the pace of God. Mhm. I I'm going at the pace of God. Mhm. I often find with loyalty, I don't know often find with loyalty, I don't know often find with loyalty, I don't know that you've seen this, that the people that you've seen this, that the people that you've seen this, that the people who demand loyalty are often a bit toxic who demand loyalty are often a bit toxic who demand loyalty are often a bit toxic and the least deserving of it. And the and the least deserving of it. And the and the least deserving of it. And the people who end up with a lot of loyalty people who end up with a lot of loyalty people who end up with a lot of loyalty aren't trying to build loyalty. They're aren't trying to build loyalty. They're aren't trying to build loyalty. They're just good people and people end up being just good people and people end up being just good people and people end up being loyal to them. So, you close nailing it loyal to them. So, you close nailing it loyal to them. So, you close nailing it with a letter to the next generation. with a letter to the next generation. with a letter to the next generation. What do you wish most the next What do you wish most the next What do you wish most the next generation generation generation Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> knew about leadership or understood >> knew about leadership or understood >> knew about leadership or understood about leadership? about leadership? about leadership? Oh, I really I wish the next generation Oh, I really I wish the next generation Oh, I really I wish the next generation understood understood understood that that that being a healthy, strong, successful being a healthy, strong, successful being a healthy, strong, successful leader takes time. leader takes time. leader takes time. Mhm. One of the challenges, I remember Mhm. One of the challenges, I remember Mhm. One of the challenges, I remember when my girls were little, um when my girls were little, um when my girls were little, um they're 11 and 13 now, but when they they're 11 and 13 now, but when they they're 11 and 13 now, but when they were little, my husband and I would be were little, my husband and I would be were little, my husband and I would be amazed at how they would be obsessed amazed at how they would be obsessed amazed at how they would be obsessed with these slime YouTubers. Like with these slime YouTubers. Like with these slime YouTubers. Like >> Yeah. And the Barbie doll YouTubers.

>> Yeah. And the Barbie doll YouTubers. >> Yeah. And the Barbie doll YouTubers. This is years ago. They would watch This is years ago. They would watch This is years ago. They would watch people playing Barbie dolls and they people playing Barbie dolls and they people playing Barbie dolls and they would watch people playing with slime. would watch people playing with slime. would watch people playing with slime. And and you know, when you pull back the And and you know, when you pull back the And and you know, when you pull back the layer like who are these people, these layer like who are these people, these layer like who are these people, these are young people who were millionaires. are young people who were millionaires. are young people who were millionaires. They went viral, they got ads, they are They went viral, they got ads, they are They went viral, they got ads, they are very wealthy, and they got there fast. very wealthy, and they got there fast. very wealthy, and they got there fast. And what that has taught Gen Alpha is And what that has taught Gen Alpha is And what that has taught Gen Alpha is you don't have to go through the paces you don't have to go through the paces you don't have to go through the paces to get rich or famous or to become to get rich or famous or to become to get rich or famous or to become influential or to get ads. And while influential or to get ads. And while influential or to get ads. And while that may be true in the world, I pray that may be true in the world, I pray that may be true in the world, I pray that younger generation leaders are that younger generation leaders are that younger generation leaders are willing to walk with God through that willing to walk with God through that willing to walk with God through that journey. There will be times when people journey. There will be times when people journey. There will be times when people will call you out and the spotlight will will call you out and the spotlight will will call you out and the spotlight will be great and it'll be all at once, but be great and it'll be all at once, but be great and it'll be all at once, but nine times out of 10, character is built nine times out of 10, character is built nine times out of 10, character is built on the long journey, not the short road. on the long journey, not the short road. on the long journey, not the short road. So, I really pray that leaders are So, I really pray that leaders are So, I really pray that leaders are willing to walk with God on the long willing to walk with God on the long willing to walk with God on the long road. I pray that that that leaders will road. I pray that that that leaders will road. I pray that that that leaders will be willing to use every talent and gift be willing to use every talent and gift be willing to use every talent and gift that they that they have for God, even that they that they have for God, even that they that they have for God, even if they've never seen it used before.

if they've never seen it used before. if they've never seen it used before. I don't want I don't want I don't want my daughters or anyone's kids to be my daughters or anyone's kids to be my daughters or anyone's kids to be boxed into what anointing looks like and boxed into what anointing looks like and boxed into what anointing looks like and what it looks like to lead the church. what it looks like to lead the church. what it looks like to lead the church. We're we're going to need new models, We're we're going to need new models, We're we're going to need new models, and God has given them gifts that far and God has given them gifts that far and God has given them gifts that far exceed anything we've seen before. So, I exceed anything we've seen before. So, I exceed anything we've seen before. So, I hope that they will nurture I remember I hope that they will nurture I remember I hope that they will nurture I remember I have a line in there talking about have a line in there talking about have a line in there talking about Minecraft and Roblox and I was thinking, Minecraft and Roblox and I was thinking, Minecraft and Roblox and I was thinking, yeah, one generation had, you know, yeah, one generation had, you know, yeah, one generation had, you know, Lincoln Logs and the other one had pick Lincoln Logs and the other one had pick Lincoln Logs and the other one had pick up sticks or or Legos and now you're up sticks or or Legos and now you're up sticks or or Legos and now you're able to build things that I wouldn't able to build things that I wouldn't able to build things that I wouldn't even know how to begin, but I pray you even know how to begin, but I pray you even know how to begin, but I pray you use every one of your gifts for the use every one of your gifts for the use every one of your gifts for the glory of God. glory of God. glory of God. Um and then lastly, I really do hope Um and then lastly, I really do hope Um and then lastly, I really do hope that um the next generation of leaders that um the next generation of leaders that um the next generation of leaders is so crystal clear on the calling of is so crystal clear on the calling of is so crystal clear on the calling of God that they would not be afraid. Which God that they would not be afraid. Which God that they would not be afraid. Which goes back to our, you know, earlier goes back to our, you know, earlier goes back to our, you know, earlier conversations about resilience and not conversations about resilience and not conversations about resilience and not being bothered by the negative things, being bothered by the negative things, being bothered by the negative things, the harmful things that people can say. the harmful things that people can say. the harmful things that people can say. While it is true that you will have to While it is true that you will have to While it is true that you will have to hear the criticism just to know what is hear the criticism just to know what is hear the criticism just to know what is it that maybe needs to be corrected or it that maybe needs to be corrected or it that maybe needs to be corrected or changed or adjusted. By and large, we changed or adjusted. By and large, we changed or adjusted. By and large, we have to stay focused on the cross. What have to stay focused on the cross. What have to stay focused on the cross. What It's the words of God to Joshua. Moses, It's the words of God to Joshua. Moses, It's the words of God to Joshua. Moses, my servant is dead. What does he say my servant is dead. What does he say my servant is dead. What does he say over and over? Be strong and courageous.

over and over? Be strong and courageous. over and over? Be strong and courageous. Be strong and courageous. Be strong and Be strong and courageous. Be strong and Be strong and courageous. Be strong and courageous. Not because you're perfect. courageous. Not because you're perfect. courageous. Not because you're perfect. Not because you have the answers, but Not because you have the answers, but Not because you have the answers, but because I am with you. As I was with because I am with you. As I was with because I am with you. As I was with Moses, I will be with you. And I pray Moses, I will be with you. And I pray Moses, I will be with you. And I pray that they can have that same strength that they can have that same strength that they can have that same strength and courage knowing that God is with and courage knowing that God is with and courage knowing that God is with them. them. them. Well, Nicole, you're going to have a lot Well, Nicole, you're going to have a lot Well, Nicole, you're going to have a lot of leaders tracking with you at of leaders tracking with you at of leaders tracking with you at Christianity today and Christianity today and Christianity today and I would I would recommend nailing it. I would I would recommend nailing it. I would I would recommend nailing it. It's a great book and It's a great book and It's a great book and I think of all the leadership journeys, I think of all the leadership journeys, I think of all the leadership journeys, the personal growth side, the spiritual the personal growth side, the spiritual the personal growth side, the spiritual growth, the personal growth, the growth, the personal growth, the growth, the personal growth, the willingness to look inward, to question willingness to look inward, to question willingness to look inward, to question our motives our motives our motives is perhaps the most important journey. I is perhaps the most important journey. I is perhaps the most important journey. I always look at it this way. The The always look at it this way. The The always look at it this way. The The ancients called it sanctification. We're ancients called it sanctification. We're ancients called it sanctification. We're not off the hook. So, Yeah. thanks for not off the hook. So, Yeah. thanks for not off the hook. So, Yeah. thanks for coming on. I've really enjoyed this coming on. I've really enjoyed this coming on. I've really enjoyed this conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Is there another call to action or >> Is there another call to action or >> Is there another call to action or anything you would ask of our listeners anything you would ask of our listeners anything you would ask of our listeners or just tell us where they can find all or just tell us where they can find all or just tell us where they can find all things Oh, I would say things Oh, I would say things Oh, I would say subscribing to CT should be just a subscribing to CT should be just a subscribing to CT should be just a muscle that we exercise in ministry. Um muscle that we exercise in ministry. Um muscle that we exercise in ministry. Um I would encourage you to do that. In I would encourage you to do that. In I would encourage you to do that. In fact, Carrie, after this I'll send you a fact, Carrie, after this I'll send you a fact, Carrie, after this I'll send you a QR code. If listeners want to subscribe, QR code. If listeners want to subscribe, QR code. If listeners want to subscribe, we'll give them a free subscription or we'll give them a free subscription or we'll give them a free subscription or some uh percentage off. So, I'll make some uh percentage off. So, I'll make some uh percentage off. So, I'll make sure you have that.

sure you have that. sure you have that. >> really cool. Yeah, we'll put that in the >> really cool. Yeah, we'll put that in the >> really cool. Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes. We will. That's very show notes. We will. That's very show notes. We will. That's very generous of you. I would generous of you. I would generous of you. I would >> Don't pull a Billy Graham here and go >> Don't pull a Billy Graham here and go >> Don't pull a Billy Graham here and go bankrupt in 2 years. A lot of people who bankrupt in 2 years. A lot of people who bankrupt in 2 years. A lot of people who listen to this podcast, but listen to this podcast, but listen to this podcast, but That's [laughter] That's [laughter] That's [laughter] right. That's right. But, that's really right. That's right. But, that's really right. That's right. But, that's really generous and generous and generous and >> No, I do. I want I want them to >> No, I do. I want I want them to >> No, I do. I want I want them to subscribe and we will do whatever it subscribe and we will do whatever it subscribe and we will do whatever it takes to ensure that we can reach the takes to ensure that we can reach the takes to ensure that we can reach the right leaders and I believe your right leaders and I believe your right leaders and I believe your listeners are the leaders who are listeners are the leaders who are listeners are the leaders who are curious and open and have questions and curious and open and have questions and curious and open and have questions and just want to grow with God and that's just want to grow with God and that's just want to grow with God and that's that's who we are at CT. that's who we are at CT. that's who we are at CT. And to bring some sanity to the dialogue And to bring some sanity to the dialogue And to bring some sanity to the dialogue today would be really good. And that today would be really good. And that today would be really good. And that diversity of perspectives within a diversity of perspectives within a diversity of perspectives within a Tether Tether Tether so so needed. So so needed. Nicole, so so needed. So so needed. Nicole, so so needed. So so needed. Nicole, thank you so much. Thank you, Carey. thank you so much. Thank you, Carey. thank you so much. Thank you, Carey. Man, we covered a lot. Stuff I did not Man, we covered a lot. Stuff I did not Man, we covered a lot. Stuff I did not know. I did not know about Billy know. I did not know about Billy know. I did not know about Billy Graham's father-in-law. Graham's father-in-law. Graham's father-in-law. Uh really didn't know a lot about the Uh really didn't know a lot about the Uh really didn't know a lot about the history of Christianity's day back in history of Christianity's day back in history of Christianity's day back in the day before I was born. the day before I was born. the day before I was born. And I guess we've kind of been here And I guess we've kind of been here And I guess we've kind of been here before, right? Plus before, right? Plus before, right? Plus man oh man, it's so good to talk about man oh man, it's so good to talk about man oh man, it's so good to talk about the controversy that almost everything the controversy that almost everything the controversy that almost everything drums up today, right? Whether you're drums up today, right? Whether you're drums up today, right? Whether you're appointed appointed appointed to this leadership position, the public to this leadership position, the public to this leadership position, the public criticism, the private criticism, how to criticism, the private criticism, how to criticism, the private criticism, how to navigate that, and a whole lot more.

navigate that, and a whole lot more. navigate that, and a whole lot more. We've got everything we talked about and We've got everything we talked about and We've got everything we talked about and more inside the show notes, including more inside the show notes, including more inside the show notes, including that pretty incredible offer of the QR that pretty incredible offer of the QR that pretty incredible offer of the QR code. So you can go to code. So you can go to code. So you can go to carryneuhoff.com/shownotes, carryneuhoff.com/shownotes, carryneuhoff.com/shownotes, or better yet, just go to the art of or better yet, just go to the art of or better yet, just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, and you can join some of the 20,000 and you can join some of the 20,000 and you can join some of the 20,000 leaders plus who have joined the art of leaders plus who have joined the art of leaders plus who have joined the art of leadership academy over the last year. leadership academy over the last year. leadership academy over the last year. They've moved from the crowd to the They've moved from the crowd to the They've moved from the crowd to the core. That's where you find exclusive core. That's where you find exclusive core. That's where you find exclusive offers like the one Nicole so generously offers like the one Nicole so generously offers like the one Nicole so generously gave. And we were talking after we hung gave. And we were talking after we hung gave. And we were talking after we hung up and stopped recording, up and stopped recording, up and stopped recording, you know, what about a print magazine? you know, what about a print magazine? you know, what about a print magazine? I'm a huge fan of print magazines, huge I'm a huge fan of print magazines, huge I'm a huge fan of print magazines, huge fan of print books. I think they're fan of print books. I think they're fan of print books. I think they're going to make a comeback just like paper going to make a comeback just like paper going to make a comeback just like paper Bibles have with the next generation. So Bibles have with the next generation. So Bibles have with the next generation. So if you're a young leader and you have if you're a young leader and you have if you're a young leader and you have never subscribed to a magazine, might never subscribed to a magazine, might never subscribed to a magazine, might want to check out that free offer at the want to check out that free offer at the want to check out that free offer at the QR code and just see what it's all QR code and just see what it's all QR code and just see what it's all about. I think we're just better if it's about. I think we're just better if it's about. I think we're just better if it's curated content for us, and I subscribe curated content for us, and I subscribe curated content for us, and I subscribe still to a variety of magazines, and still to a variety of magazines, and still to a variety of magazines, and I've actually picked that up after I've actually picked that up after I've actually picked that up after decades of not doing it. Done that over decades of not doing it. Done that over decades of not doing it. Done that over the last few years. It's made me a much the last few years. It's made me a much the last few years. It's made me a much better leader. So better leader. So better leader. So anyway, all that and a whole lot more at anyway, all that and a whole lot more at anyway, all that and a whole lot more at the show notes. You can find them in the the show notes. You can find them in the the show notes. You can find them in the art of leadershipacademy.com, art of leadershipacademy.com, art of leadershipacademy.com, where you can join up for free, where you can join up for free, where you can join up for free, absolutely free. Coming up on the absolutely free. Coming up on the absolutely free. Coming up on the podcast, John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, podcast, John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, podcast, John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, Tyler Staton, Will Guidara from Tyler Staton, Will Guidara from Tyler Staton, Will Guidara from Unreasonable Hospitality, and a whole Unreasonable Hospitality, and a whole Unreasonable Hospitality, and a whole lot more. If you subscribe to the lot more. If you subscribe to the lot more. If you subscribe to the podcast, you will never ever miss an podcast, you will never ever miss an podcast, you will never ever miss an episode, and you knew that. Audio episode, and you knew that. Audio episode, and you knew that. Audio wherever you're listening, or if you're wherever you're listening, or if you're wherever you're listening, or if you're watching, just hit follow, hit watching, just hit follow, hit watching, just hit follow, hit subscribe. And if this episode meant subscribe. And if this episode meant subscribe. And if this episode meant something to you, it'd mean a lot to me

something to you, it'd mean a lot to me something to you, it'd mean a lot to me if you shared it with a friend. Send if you shared it with a friend. Send if you shared it with a friend. Send them the link, send them the text, and them the link, send them the text, and them the link, send them the text, and maybe leave a rating, review, or maybe leave a rating, review, or maybe leave a rating, review, or comment. Thank you so much for listening comment. Thank you so much for listening comment. Thank you so much for listening today, and I hope our time together today, and I hope our time together today, and I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.