The End of Anxiety? Joshua Becker on Spiritual Minimalism

I don't know if there is a better way I don't know if there is a better way to explain the American, probably the to explain the American, probably the to explain the American, probably the Canadian, most developed nations Canadian, most developed nations Canadian, most developed nations churches. Like we we've accepted the churches. Like we we've accepted the churches. Like we we've accepted the word, we've grown in faith, we have more word, we've grown in faith, we have more word, we've grown in faith, we have more resources to grow in faith than we've resources to grow in faith than we've resources to grow in faith than we've ever had before. And yet I don't know if ever had before. And yet I don't know if ever had before. And yet I don't know if anyone would look at the American church anyone would look at the American church anyone would look at the American church and think that we are as fruitful as we and think that we are as fruitful as we and think that we are as fruitful as we can possibly be. Almost everything that can possibly be. Almost everything that can possibly be. Almost everything that makes our nation our nation, the pursuit makes our nation our nation, the pursuit makes our nation our nation, the pursuit of money and riches and pleasures and of money and riches and pleasures and of money and riches and pleasures and all the worries that come with them, are all the worries that come with them, are all the worries that come with them, are the very thing that is choking out our the very thing that is choking out our the very thing that is choking out our fruitfulness. Welcome to the Carey fruitfulness. Welcome to the Carey fruitfulness. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey here and I hope our time together today here and I hope our time together today here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. We are talking about the end of anxiety. We are talking about the end of anxiety. We are talking about the end of anxiety. Why are you so anxious? When is enough Why are you so anxious? When is enough Why are you so anxious? When is enough enough? Joshua Becker, The Minimalist, enough? Joshua Becker, The Minimalist, enough? Joshua Becker, The Minimalist, comes back on the podcast and we talk comes back on the podcast and we talk comes back on the podcast and we talk about having an uncluttered faith and about having an uncluttered faith and about having an uncluttered faith and basically what it does when you have basically what it does when you have basically what it does when you have less, not more. [music] I'm excited to less, not more. [music] I'm excited to less, not more. [music] I'm excited to have this conversation. It's a personal have this conversation. It's a personal have this conversation. It's a personal conversation, something I've been conversation, something I've been conversation, something I've been thinking about a lot. And if you thinking about a lot. And if you thinking about a lot. And if you struggle with anxiety or overwhelm or struggle with anxiety or overwhelm or struggle with anxiety or overwhelm or feeling like it's all too much in feeling like it's all too much in feeling like it's all too much in leadership, Joshua was a pastor, he's leadership, Joshua was a pastor, he's leadership, Joshua was a pastor, he's also a New York Times bestselling author also a New York Times bestselling author also a New York Times bestselling author and so we have a really wide-ranging and so we have a really wide-ranging and so we have a really wide-ranging conversation. Welcome to the podcast, conversation. Welcome to the podcast, conversation. Welcome to the podcast, those of you who are brand new, we want those of you who are brand new, we want those of you who are brand new, we want to say a special welcome to you. And for to say a special welcome to you. And for to say a special welcome to you. And for those of you who listen semi-regularly, those of you who listen semi-regularly, those of you who listen semi-regularly, those of you who are new, one of the those of you who are new, one of the those of you who are new, one of the best things you could do if you enjoy

best things you could do if you enjoy best things you could do if you enjoy conversations like this is to hit the conversations like this is to hit the conversations like this is to hit the follow button. follow button. follow button. I would love for you to do that because I would love for you to do that because I would love for you to do that because then what will happen is the algorithm then what will happen is the algorithm then what will happen is the algorithm will push this up into your feed, will push this up into your feed, will push this up into your feed, wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening, and we can have more you're listening, and we can have more you're listening, and we can have more conversations like this and you'll never conversations like this and you'll never conversations like this and you'll never miss a thing. Joshua Becker is the miss a thing. Joshua Becker is the miss a thing. Joshua Becker is the founder and editor of Becoming founder and editor of Becoming founder and editor of Becoming Minimalist, a website dedicated to Minimalist, a website dedicated to Minimalist, a website dedicated to inspiring others to find more life by inspiring others to find more life by inspiring others to find more life by owning less. He's the best-selling owning less. He's the best-selling owning less. He's the best-selling author, New York Times best-selling author, New York Times best-selling author, New York Times best-selling author of several books including the author of several books including the author of several books including the one we're talking about today, one we're talking about today, one we're talking about today, Uncluttered Faith. He holds a master's Uncluttered Faith. He holds a master's Uncluttered Faith. He holds a master's degree in theological studies. He was a degree in theological studies. He was a degree in theological studies. He was a pastor before he decided to do what he pastor before he decided to do what he pastor before he decided to do what he does now. We talk about the whole call does now. We talk about the whole call does now. We talk about the whole call process and leading and he's also the process and leading and he's also the process and leading and he's also the founder of the Hope Effect, a nonprofit founder of the Hope Effect, a nonprofit founder of the Hope Effect, a nonprofit changing how the world cares for changing how the world cares for changing how the world cares for orphans. So, my conversation with Joshua orphans. So, my conversation with Joshua orphans. So, my conversation with Joshua Becker. Well, Joshua, welcome back. It's Becker. Well, Joshua, welcome back. It's Becker. Well, Joshua, welcome back. It's really good to have you again and have really good to have you again and have really good to have you again and have another discussion. another discussion. another discussion. Well, I am very appreciative. Thank you Well, I am very appreciative. Thank you Well, I am very appreciative. Thank you so much. This is an important topic and so much. This is an important topic and so much. This is an important topic and conversation and conversation and conversation and uh apparently me hitting refresh on our uh apparently me hitting refresh on our uh apparently me hitting refresh on our last episode got enough hits that I got last episode got enough hits that I got last episode got enough hits that I got to be here again. So, thank you.

to be here again. So, thank you. to be here again. So, thank you. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Well, you bring you bring a unique Well, you bring you bring a unique Well, you bring you bring a unique perspective and just for, you know, perspective and just for, you know, perspective and just for, you know, we're we're we're almost 400 episodes past when you were almost 400 episodes past when you were almost 400 episodes past when you were on last. on last. on last. But, for leaders who may not be familiar But, for leaders who may not be familiar But, for leaders who may not be familiar with you, one of the reasons I wanted to with you, one of the reasons I wanted to with you, one of the reasons I wanted to have you is you've been a pastor and have you is you've been a pastor and have you is you've been a pastor and doing what you're doing now. So, you led doing what you're doing now. So, you led doing what you're doing now. So, you led in a church for 15 years and in a church for 15 years and in a church for 15 years and most of the people listen to this most of the people listen to this most of the people listen to this podcast work at a church, they're podcast work at a church, they're podcast work at a church, they're pastors or they're business people who pastors or they're business people who pastors or they're business people who are invested in the church, etc. are invested in the church, etc. are invested in the church, etc. What were we we were chatting a little What were we we were chatting a little What were we we were chatting a little bit before we hit record. bit before we hit record. bit before we hit record. You know, what what message does You know, what what message does You know, what what message does minimalism, for which you've become minimalism, for which you've become minimalism, for which you've become known for, have to do with pastors? And known for, have to do with pastors? And known for, have to do with pastors? And I said, "Pastors are overworked, I said, "Pastors are overworked, I said, "Pastors are overworked, overwhelmed, and overcommitted." overwhelmed, and overcommitted." overwhelmed, and overcommitted." What was your experience when you were a What was your experience when you were a What was your experience when you were a pastor pastor pastor with overwork? Like, was minimalism with overwork? Like, was minimalism with overwork? Like, was minimalism something that came out of your something that came out of your something that came out of your ministry? Was it something you had to ministry? Was it something you had to ministry? Was it something you had to learn in real time? Is it more of a learn in real time? Is it more of a learn in real time? Is it more of a later incarnation? later incarnation? later incarnation? How did that How did that impact your How did that How did that impact your How did that How did that impact your actual workflow and everything when you actual workflow and everything when you actual workflow and everything when you worked at a church?

Yeah, I was so blessed to work at really Yeah, I was so blessed to work at really some wonderful churches. I was a I was a some wonderful churches. I was a I was a some wonderful churches. I was a I was a youth pastor for 13 years. I was an youth pastor for 13 years. I was an youth pastor for 13 years. I was an associate pastor at a church plant for 2 associate pastor at a church plant for 2 associate pastor at a church plant for 2 years. Um so I was never the years. Um so I was never the years. Um so I was never the never the the first end out there taking never the the first end out there taking never the the first end out there taking the arrows. Yeah. But uh always had a the arrows. Yeah. But uh always had a the arrows. Yeah. But uh always had a wonderful leadership team ahead of me wonderful leadership team ahead of me wonderful leadership team ahead of me and loved ministry. Uh minimalism, even and loved ministry. Uh minimalism, even and loved ministry. Uh minimalism, even though I grew up in the church, though I grew up in the church, though I grew up in the church, it took my unbelieving neighbor to it took my unbelieving neighbor to it took my unbelieving neighbor to introduce me to minimalism and I think introduce me to minimalism and I think introduce me to minimalism and I think shed a new light on uh all that Jesus shed a new light on uh all that Jesus shed a new light on uh all that Jesus had been inviting me to concerning money had been inviting me to concerning money had been inviting me to concerning money and possessions. Um so that was my and possessions. Um so that was my and possessions. Um so that was my story. Interestingly enough, it was story. Interestingly enough, it was story. Interestingly enough, it was outside the church that I was introduced outside the church that I was introduced outside the church that I was introduced to what I think is a entirely biblical to what I think is a entirely biblical to what I think is a entirely biblical concept and important concept and so uh concept and important concept and so uh concept and important concept and so uh I loved pastoring, thought I would do my I loved pastoring, thought I would do my I loved pastoring, thought I would do my entire life. Uh my grandpa used to say, entire life. Uh my grandpa used to say, entire life. Uh my grandpa used to say, "If God calls you to be a pastor, don't "If God calls you to be a pastor, don't "If God calls you to be a pastor, don't stoop to be a king." stoop to be a king." stoop to be a king." And uh I thought I would do it for the And uh I thought I would do it for the And uh I thought I would do it for the rest of my life, but um God had rest of my life, but um God had rest of my life, but um God had different plans and uh my whole life's different plans and uh my whole life's different plans and uh my whole life's been about trying to follow him.

been about trying to follow him. been about trying to follow him. How did you know it was over? How did How did you know it was over? How did How did you know it was over? How did you know that cuz this is a question I you know that cuz this is a question I you know that cuz this is a question I get a lot from leaders. get a lot from leaders. get a lot from leaders. It's like, "Do I still have a calling? It's like, "Do I still have a calling? It's like, "Do I still have a calling? Am I still going to work in ministry?" Am I still going to work in ministry?" Am I still going to work in ministry?" What was that inflection point for you? Carey, it was a 3 and 1/2 year journey Carey, it was a 3 and 1/2 year journey for me. It was a 3 and 1/2 year journey. for me. It was a 3 and 1/2 year journey. for me. It was a 3 and 1/2 year journey. I had discovered minimalism. I started I had discovered minimalism. I started I had discovered minimalism. I started becomingminimalist.com. becomingminimalist.com. becomingminimalist.com. It was just a website. It was a diary. It was just a website. It was a diary. It was just a website. It was a diary. It was a journal. This is what we're It was a journal. This is what we're It was a journal. This is what we're getting rid of. This is what I'm getting rid of. This is what I'm getting rid of. This is what I'm learning about myself. This is what learning about myself. This is what learning about myself. This is what we're keeping. This is what I'm learning we're keeping. This is what I'm learning we're keeping. This is what I'm learning about the world around me. And that about the world around me. And that about the world around me. And that website was growing and growing even website was growing and growing even website was growing and growing even though mm how do I say this right? Even though mm how do I say this right? Even though mm how do I say this right? Even though I wasn't intentionally trying to though I wasn't intentionally trying to though I wasn't intentionally trying to grow it, if that makes sense. A lot of grow it, if that makes sense. A lot of grow it, if that makes sense. A lot of people in their jobs can't wait to people in their jobs can't wait to people in their jobs can't wait to become a full-time writer. That was become a full-time writer. That was become a full-time writer. That was never me. I loved pastoring, I thought I never me. I loved pastoring, I thought I never me. I loved pastoring, I thought I was doing it, but what I was doing over was doing it, but what I was doing over was doing it, but what I was doing over here here here kept growing and growing through a kept growing and growing through a kept growing and growing through a number of conversations. There's about a number of conversations. There's about a number of conversations. There's about a year and a half journey of God pulling year and a half journey of God pulling year and a half journey of God pulling me out of youth ministry, like making it me out of youth ministry, like making it me out of youth ministry, like making it very clear. I had done it for 15 years.

very clear. I had done it for 15 years. very clear. I had done it for 15 years. What I had learned in the mid-90s wasn't What I had learned in the mid-90s wasn't What I had learned in the mid-90s wasn't working in the year 2010, and I had to working in the year 2010, and I had to working in the year 2010, and I had to decide, am I going to reinvent? Am I decide, am I going to reinvent? Am I decide, am I going to reinvent? Am I going to relearn how to do youth going to relearn how to do youth going to relearn how to do youth ministry? Do I have another 15 years in ministry? Do I have another 15 years in ministry? Do I have another 15 years in me? Um so it was a year and a half of me? Um so it was a year and a half of me? Um so it was a year and a half of moving out of that, moving out of that, moving out of that, and then it was a 2 and 1/2 year job and then it was a 2 and 1/2 year job and then it was a 2 and 1/2 year job working with a church plant that was working with a church plant that was working with a church plant that was um set up for I'm going to work here for um set up for I'm going to work here for um set up for I'm going to work here for 2 years and then I'm going to transition 2 years and then I'm going to transition 2 years and then I'm going to transition out and just another 2 years of God out and just another 2 years of God out and just another 2 years of God confirming it. And Carey, my prayer, the confirming it. And Carey, my prayer, the confirming it. And Carey, my prayer, the prayer that I go back to over and over prayer that I go back to over and over prayer that I go back to over and over and over again in my life is and over again in my life is and over again in my life is God, I think this is what you're calling God, I think this is what you're calling God, I think this is what you're calling me to do. me to do. me to do. I am going to start doing it. If you I am going to start doing it. If you I am going to start doing it. If you don't want me going down that road, don't want me going down that road, don't want me going down that road, please make it clear cuz please make it clear cuz please make it clear cuz cuz this is what I think. Like going cuz this is what I think. Like going cuz this is what I think. Like going into youth ministry, marrying my wife, into youth ministry, marrying my wife, into youth ministry, marrying my wife, moving to Vermont, move because starting moving to Vermont, move because starting moving to Vermont, move because starting becoming minimalist, it was all becoming minimalist, it was all becoming minimalist, it was all God, I think you want me to do that. If God, I think you want me to do that. If God, I think you want me to do that. If I'm wrong, please tell me cuz I want to I'm wrong, please tell me cuz I want to I'm wrong, please tell me cuz I want to be in your will.

be in your will. be in your will. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> What approximate year was that? Like >> What approximate year was that? Like >> What approximate year was that? Like what era when you started becoming what era when you started becoming what era when you started becoming minimalist, etc.? Was that 18 18 years minimalist, etc.? Was that 18 18 years minimalist, etc.? Was that 18 18 years ago, 2008. ago, 2008. ago, 2008. 2008. 2008. 2008. >> 2008. What an interesting age. I mean, >> 2008. What an interesting age. I mean, >> 2008. What an interesting age. I mean, very very very very similar story. For me, the exit out very similar story. For me, the exit out very similar story. For me, the exit out of um church staff ministry, I'm still of um church staff ministry, I'm still of um church staff ministry, I'm still in ministry, it's just a different form, in ministry, it's just a different form, in ministry, it's just a different form, was 2015. And I had been experimenting was 2015. And I had been experimenting was 2015. And I had been experimenting with blogging and speaking to leaders with blogging and speaking to leaders with blogging and speaking to leaders from around 2008. from around 2008. from around 2008. In 2012 started going like regularly and In 2012 started going like regularly and In 2012 started going like regularly and posting three times a week on posting three times a week on posting three times a week on careynieuwhof.com. careynieuwhof.com. careynieuwhof.com. And again, [clears throat] it blew up. And again, [clears throat] it blew up. And again, [clears throat] it blew up. It was like, okay, I got church growing It was like, okay, I got church growing It was like, okay, I got church growing over here and it was growing. over here and it was growing. over here and it was growing. But like that was really growing and it But like that was really growing and it But like that was really growing and it led to a series of questions and led to a series of questions and led to a series of questions and conversations and conversations and conversations and all of that. Yeah, those are those are all of that. Yeah, those are those are all of that. Yeah, those are those are fun days, I'll tell you on the other fun days, I'll tell you on the other fun days, I'll tell you on the other >> I'll add and I think you'd probably >> I'll add and I think you'd probably >> I'll add and I think you'd probably agree with this. Um when I left agree with this. Um when I left agree with this. Um when I left pastoring to write full-time pastoring to write full-time pastoring to write full-time there was a clear sense in my mind of there was a clear sense in my mind of there was a clear sense in my mind of how that new role was going to serve the how that new role was going to serve the how that new role was going to serve the church and was going to serve the church and was going to serve the church and was going to serve the kingdom.

kingdom. kingdom. Uh and just the way you mentioned it, Uh and just the way you mentioned it, Uh and just the way you mentioned it, right? It was a different ministry and I right? It was a different ministry and I right? It was a different ministry and I could see that and feel that and so could see that and feel that and so could see that and feel that and so um um um didn't feel like I was leaving for didn't feel like I was leaving for didn't feel like I was leaving for money, didn't feel like I was leaving money, didn't feel like I was leaving money, didn't feel like I was leaving for fame, didn't feel like I was leaving for fame, didn't feel like I was leaving for fame, didn't feel like I was leaving because it was easier. I felt very because it was easier. I felt very because it was easier. I felt very specific that hey, there's a role that I specific that hey, there's a role that I specific that hey, there's a role that I can play in the kingdom and I think this can play in the kingdom and I think this can play in the kingdom and I think this is what God has gifted and called me to is what God has gifted and called me to is what God has gifted and called me to do. do. do. Yeah, that's funny how that goes. I was Yeah, that's funny how that goes. I was Yeah, that's funny how that goes. I was leaving for a pay cut cuz I moved from leaving for a pay cut cuz I moved from leaving for a pay cut cuz I moved from lead pastor teaching pastor at my church lead pastor teaching pastor at my church lead pastor teaching pastor at my church for a few years and [laughter] for a few years and [laughter] for a few years and [laughter] this wasn't really a business so to this wasn't really a business so to this wasn't really a business so to speak, it was a hobby. Yeah. And yeah, speak, it was a hobby. Yeah. And yeah, speak, it was a hobby. Yeah. And yeah, but those are those steps of faith too but those are those steps of faith too but those are those steps of faith too and I really wrestled with the the whole and I really wrestled with the the whole and I really wrestled with the the whole calling thing. calling thing. calling thing. Was there Was there Was there This kind of weird question, if you need This kind of weird question, if you need This kind of weird question, if you need to pass, just pass. to pass, just pass. to pass, just pass. Was there anything that could have or Was there anything that could have or Was there anything that could have or would have changed your mind at the would have changed your mind at the would have changed your mind at the point because you know, the way you point because you know, the way you point because you know, the way you described it and we haven't talked about described it and we haven't talked about described it and we haven't talked about it in depth. it in depth. it in depth. It was really like, I think this is It was really like, I think this is It was really like, I think this is faithful to step out of the lead pastor faithful to step out of the lead pastor faithful to step out of the lead pastor role at 50. I think it's faithful to try role at 50. I think it's faithful to try role at 50. I think it's faithful to try to help leaders. I don't know for sure.

to help leaders. I don't know for sure. to help leaders. I don't know for sure. We prayed for a summer about it in the We prayed for a summer about it in the We prayed for a summer about it in the summer of 2015. summer of 2015. summer of 2015. But it was still I don't think it was a But it was still I don't think it was a But it was still I don't think it was a gargantuan of faith, but it was like a gargantuan of faith, but it was like a gargantuan of faith, but it was like a step of faith. step of faith. step of faith. It definitely was not like, "Oh, this is It definitely was not like, "Oh, this is It definitely was not like, "Oh, this is clear. I know this is what I'm supposed clear. I know this is what I'm supposed clear. I know this is what I'm supposed to do." It's like, to do." It's like, to do." It's like, "Here I go. "Here I go. "Here I go. I hope this is right, God." And here we I hope this is right, God." And here we I hope this is right, God." And here we are 11 years later. I don't have any are 11 years later. I don't have any are 11 years later. I don't have any doubts now, but I did then. doubts now, but I did then. doubts now, but I did then. Uh it was like taking the step at second Uh it was like taking the step at second Uh it was like taking the step at second foot out of the boat and walking on foot out of the boat and walking on foot out of the boat and walking on water, right? water, right? water, right? It's exactly exactly Yeah, cuz once you It's exactly exactly Yeah, cuz once you It's exactly exactly Yeah, cuz once you quit, you can't go back, especially as a quit, you can't go back, especially as a quit, you can't go back, especially as a lead pastor. You can't come back the lead pastor. You can't come back the lead pastor. You can't come back the next day and go, "You know what, elders? next day and go, "You know what, elders? next day and go, "You know what, elders? You know what, board? I just had a bad You know what, board? I just had a bad You know what, board? I just had a bad day. I'm I'm Like you're done." Like day. I'm I'm Like you're done." Like day. I'm I'm Like you're done." Like even if they undid it, you're still even if they undid it, you're still even if they undid it, you're still done. Like I See, I always felt like I I done. Like I See, I always felt like I I done. Like I See, I always felt like I I could go back. Um could go back. Um could go back. Um we had we had we had uh so when I left full-time ministry 13 uh so when I left full-time ministry 13 uh so when I left full-time ministry 13 years ago, uh we were making $2,000 a years ago, uh we were making $2,000 a years ago, uh we were making $2,000 a month online. So, it was a pay cut as month online. So, it was a pay cut as month online. So, it was a pay cut as well.

well. well. Uh but we had saved up enough that we Uh but we had saved up enough that we Uh but we had saved up enough that we had about 9 months that we could live on had about 9 months that we could live on had about 9 months that we could live on making $2,000 a month. And my theory And making $2,000 a month. And my theory And making $2,000 a month. And my theory And maybe I was wrong. My theory was, "You maybe I was wrong. My theory was, "You maybe I was wrong. My theory was, "You know what? If after 9 months, I can't know what? If after 9 months, I can't know what? If after 9 months, I can't make a full-time living doing that, then make a full-time living doing that, then make a full-time living doing that, then surely some church would take me back." surely some church would take me back." surely some church would take me back." Maybe I was a little too Maybe a little Maybe I was a little too Maybe a little Maybe I was a little too Maybe a little too proud of it. too proud of it. too proud of it. >> That makes sense. You You asked the >> That makes sense. You You asked the >> That makes sense. You You asked the question, is there something that could question, is there something that could question, is there something that could have happened that would have stopped me have happened that would have stopped me have happened that would have stopped me from making the change? And there there from making the change? And there there from making the change? And there there absolutely was. I mean, there wasn't absolutely was. I mean, there wasn't absolutely was. I mean, there wasn't anything if this thing happens, but so anything if this thing happens, but so anything if this thing happens, but so it was a 2-year process of we moved here it was a 2-year process of we moved here it was a 2-year process of we moved here to Arizona to help my friend plant a to Arizona to help my friend plant a to Arizona to help my friend plant a church, and I said, "I think God's church, and I said, "I think God's church, and I said, "I think God's calling me to write full-time. So, let's calling me to write full-time. So, let's calling me to write full-time. So, let's just do it for 2 years, and I'll stay at just do it for 2 years, and I'll stay at just do it for 2 years, and I'll stay at the church. I can continue to teach and the church. I can continue to teach and the church. I can continue to teach and be an elder and serve. I'll just do it be an elder and serve. I'll just do it be an elder and serve. I'll just do it for free." And that whole time, I said, for free." And that whole time, I said, for free." And that whole time, I said, "If if the whole website falls apart, "If if the whole website falls apart, "If if the whole website falls apart, like if people stop reading me online, like if people stop reading me online, like if people stop reading me online, and the whole thing collapses, then I and the whole thing collapses, then I and the whole thing collapses, then I can keep pastoring. The second thing I can keep pastoring. The second thing I can keep pastoring. The second thing I said is if I fall so in love with the said is if I fall so in love with the said is if I fall so in love with the church and the role that I can't stand church and the role that I can't stand church and the role that I can't stand the fact of leaving, then that would be the fact of leaving, then that would be the fact of leaving, then that would be another sign that that God would be another sign that that God would be another sign that that God would be calling me. So, I read a book 30 years calling me. So, I read a book 30 years calling me. So, I read a book 30 years ago called Red Light Red Light Green ago called Red Light Red Light Green ago called Red Light Red Light Green Light by John Siyaka. I don't even know Light by John Siyaka. I don't even know Light by John Siyaka. I don't even know if it's still in print, but Never heard if it's still in print, but Never heard if it's still in print, but Never heard of of of >> his whole theory his whole theory was >> his whole theory his whole theory was >> his whole theory his whole theory was when you transition ministries or inner when you transition ministries or inner when you transition ministries or inner out of ministry, you're always looking

out of ministry, you're always looking out of ministry, you're always looking for two green lights. You're looking for for two green lights. You're looking for for two green lights. You're looking for a green light from the place that you're a green light from the place that you're a green light from the place that you're leaving and you're looking for a green leaving and you're looking for a green leaving and you're looking for a green light for the place that you're going. light for the place that you're going. light for the place that you're going. And And And if the church you're at isn't good for if the church you're at isn't good for if the church you're at isn't good for you to leave, then it shouldn't be you you to leave, then it shouldn't be you you to leave, then it shouldn't be you shouldn't be going. If the place you're shouldn't be going. If the place you're shouldn't be going. If the place you're going isn't right, then you shouldn't be going isn't right, then you shouldn't be going isn't right, then you shouldn't be going. So, going. So, going. So, it's very helpful, but Well, here we are it's very helpful, but Well, here we are it's very helpful, but Well, here we are all these years later. I wrote a all these years later. I wrote a all these years later. I wrote a different book. different book. different book. >> What's that? I missed it. But I wrote a >> What's that? I missed it. But I wrote a >> What's that? I missed it. But I wrote a book about minimalism and owning less. book about minimalism and owning less. book about minimalism and owning less. Go figure. Go figure. Go figure. Yeah, no, I I think it helps a lot of Yeah, no, I I think it helps a lot of Yeah, no, I I think it helps a lot of pastors. I mean 24% of pastors still pastors. I mean 24% of pastors still pastors. I mean 24% of pastors still today in 2026 have given real serious today in 2026 have given real serious today in 2026 have given real serious consideration consideration consideration to not continuing in ministry. And, you to not continuing in ministry. And, you to not continuing in ministry. And, you know, I do think it's helpful to have know, I do think it's helpful to have know, I do think it's helpful to have something something something set up to go to next, but as in your set up to go to next, but as in your set up to go to next, but as in your case and my case, it was not guaranteed. case and my case, it was not guaranteed. case and my case, it was not guaranteed. It wasn't certain. And It wasn't certain. And It wasn't certain. And >> and I and I think there was a there was >> and I and I think there was a there was >> and I and I think there was a there was a little bit of confidence in I wasn't a little bit of confidence in I wasn't a little bit of confidence in I wasn't trying to get out. I wasn't trying to trying to get out. I wasn't trying to trying to get out. I wasn't trying to build that. It was like God was just build that. It was like God was just build that. It was like God was just blessing it and and not just blessing it and and not just blessing it and and not just financially, but opportunity and impact financially, but opportunity and impact financially, but opportunity and impact and um and um and um I don't know. To me, it just brought a I don't know. To me, it just brought a I don't know. To me, it just brought a confidence that I wasn't out chasing confidence that I wasn't out chasing confidence that I wasn't out chasing something that I shouldn't have been.

something that I shouldn't have been. something that I shouldn't have been. So, yeah, 3 and 1/2 years. Difficult 3 So, yeah, 3 and 1/2 years. Difficult 3 So, yeah, 3 and 1/2 years. Difficult 3 and 1/2 years. I felt a little bit like and 1/2 years. I felt a little bit like and 1/2 years. I felt a little bit like Abraham leaving the Abraham leaving the Abraham leaving the leaving my homeland but not knowing leaving my homeland but not knowing leaving my homeland but not knowing exactly where where I'm supposed to be exactly where where I'm supposed to be exactly where where I'm supposed to be going was how I felt for a while. going was how I felt for a while. going was how I felt for a while. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, the neighbor. So, the neighbor. So, the neighbor. How did he introduce you to minimalism? How did he introduce you to minimalism? How did he introduce you to minimalism? How did that What's the origin story How did that What's the origin story How did that What's the origin story there? there? there? Yeah, I'll give you the short story how Yeah, I'll give you the short story how Yeah, I'll give you the short story how she introduced me. Um I she introduced me. Um I she introduced me. Um I So, I was in my mid-30s. I was living in So, I was in my mid-30s. I was living in So, I was in my mid-30s. I was living in Vermont. My son Salem was five. My Vermont. My son Salem was five. My Vermont. My son Salem was five. My daughter Alexa was two. daughter Alexa was two. daughter Alexa was two. Uh it was Memorial Day weekend. We were Uh it was Memorial Day weekend. We were Uh it was Memorial Day weekend. We were going to do our spring cleaning. going to do our spring cleaning. going to do our spring cleaning. I offered to clean out the garage after I offered to clean out the garage after I offered to clean out the garage after the long winter, which I don't have in the long winter, which I don't have in the long winter, which I don't have in Phoenix anymore, but you still get to go Phoenix anymore, but you still get to go Phoenix anymore, but you still get to go through. So, you know how it goes. I Um through. So, you know how it goes. I Um through. So, you know how it goes. I Um [clears throat] and so, my son's five. [clears throat] and so, my son's five. [clears throat] and so, my son's five. I've got this vision of him helping his I've got this vision of him helping his I've got this vision of him helping his dad out in the garage. Of course, he dad out in the garage. Of course, he dad out in the garage. Of course, he lasts about 30 seconds. lasts about 30 seconds. lasts about 30 seconds. >> Every every dad has that vision and it >> Every every dad has that vision and it >> Every every dad has that vision and it never quite works out. never quite works out. never quite works out. >> thinking such a dad thing to think. He's >> thinking such a dad thing to think. He's >> thinking such a dad thing to think. He's He's in the backyard, uh but not just in He's in the backyard, uh but not just in He's in the backyard, uh but not just in the backyard, but he wants me to come the backyard, but he wants me to come the backyard, but he wants me to come play catch and throw the Wiffle ball and play catch and throw the Wiffle ball and play catch and throw the Wiffle ball and play with him. And I remember saying, "I play with him. And I remember saying, "I play with him. And I remember saying, "I can't. I need to clean out the garage.

can't. I need to clean out the garage. can't. I need to clean out the garage. This is what we're doing today." This is what we're doing today." This is what we're doing today." Hours later, I'm still working on the Hours later, I'm still working on the Hours later, I'm still working on the same garage. Uh my neighbor June um is same garage. Uh my neighbor June um is same garage. Uh my neighbor June um is doing all of her yard work, which has doing all of her yard work, which has doing all of her yard work, which has now become a bucket list item for me now become a bucket list item for me now become a bucket list item for me that that that my wife will do the yard work when we're my wife will do the yard work when we're my wife will do the yard work when we're older. older. older. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> We'll see, but >> We'll see, but >> We'll see, but Uh anyway, my son's running up about Uh anyway, my son's running up about Uh anyway, my son's running up about every 20-30 minutes asking me to come every 20-30 minutes asking me to come every 20-30 minutes asking me to come play catch, and I just keep pushing him play catch, and I just keep pushing him play catch, and I just keep pushing him off as we do. One more minute, one more off as we do. One more minute, one more off as we do. One more minute, one more minute, I'm almost done, I'm almost minute, I'm almost done, I'm almost minute, I'm almost done, I'm almost done. done. done. I think June is seeing what's happening. I think June is seeing what's happening. I think June is seeing what's happening. One time we walked past each other, and One time we walked past each other, and One time we walked past each other, and she said sarcastically, she said sarcastically, she said sarcastically, "The joys of home ownership, huh, "The joys of home ownership, huh, "The joys of home ownership, huh, Joshua?" Joshua?" Joshua?" And I said, "Well, you know what they And I said, "Well, you know what they And I said, "Well, you know what they say, the more stuff you own, the more say, the more stuff you own, the more say, the more stuff you own, the more your stuff owns you." your stuff owns you." your stuff owns you." Which I don't know, I'd read on a cat Which I don't know, I'd read on a cat Which I don't know, I'd read on a cat poster somewhere, but never really poster somewhere, but never really poster somewhere, but never really internalized what it actually meant. internalized what it actually meant. internalized what it actually meant. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And she changes my life. She says, "You And she changes my life. She says, "You And she changes my life. She says, "You know, that's why my daughter is a know, that's why my daughter is a know, that's why my daughter is a minimalist. She keeps telling me I don't minimalist. She keeps telling me I don't minimalist. She keeps telling me I don't need to own all this stuff."

need to own all this stuff." need to own all this stuff." And I remember looking at the pile of And I remember looking at the pile of And I remember looking at the pile of dirty dusty things I'd pulled out of the dirty dusty things I'd pulled out of the dirty dusty things I'd pulled out of the garage. I would have said, just like garage. I would have said, just like garage. I would have said, just like anybody else, "I'm not looking for anybody else, "I'm not looking for anybody else, "I'm not looking for happiness in my possessions. My things happiness in my possessions. My things happiness in my possessions. My things aren't making me happy." aren't making me happy." aren't making me happy." But out of the corner of my eye, But out of the corner of my eye, But out of the corner of my eye, I saw my five-year-old son swinging I saw my five-year-old son swinging I saw my five-year-old son swinging alone on the swing set in the backyard alone on the swing set in the backyard alone on the swing set in the backyard where he had been all day by himself. where he had been all day by himself. where he had been all day by himself. And I suddenly realized, Carrie, this is And I suddenly realized, Carrie, this is And I suddenly realized, Carrie, this is so important, so important, so important, that all the things I owned weren't just that all the things I owned weren't just that all the things I owned weren't just not making me happy, but all the things not making me happy, but all the things not making me happy, but all the things I owned were actually taking me away I owned were actually taking me away I owned were actually taking me away from the very thing that did bring me from the very thing that did bring me from the very thing that did bring me happiness. happiness. happiness. And not just happiness, but joy and And not just happiness, but joy and And not just happiness, but joy and meaning and purpose and significance and meaning and purpose and significance and meaning and purpose and significance and fulfillment. And I I think that is the fulfillment. And I I think that is the fulfillment. And I I think that is the moment when intentionally owning less, moment when intentionally owning less, moment when intentionally owning less, whether you want to call it minimalism whether you want to call it minimalism whether you want to call it minimalism or something else, or something else, or something else, finally makes sense. It's when we finally makes sense. It's when we finally makes sense. It's when we realize, my things aren't just not realize, my things aren't just not realize, my things aren't just not making me happy, they're actually taking making me happy, they're actually taking making me happy, they're actually taking me away from the things that could. So, me away from the things that could. So, me away from the things that could. So, that was our That was my introduction.

that was our That was my introduction. that was our That was my introduction. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Victory Beyond the Cup. So, the World Victory Beyond the Cup. So, the World Victory Beyond the Cup. So, the World Cup is underway and billions, literally Cup is underway and billions, literally Cup is underway and billions, literally billions of people across every culture billions of people across every culture billions of people across every culture and background are gathering together. and background are gathering together. and background are gathering together. And I've been thinking about what that And I've been thinking about what that And I've been thinking about what that means for the church. So, Heather Ready means for the church. So, Heather Ready means for the church. So, Heather Ready from Cru is here. Heather, what are you from Cru is here. Heather, what are you from Cru is here. Heather, what are you seeing in this moment? Yeah, Carrie, seeing in this moment? Yeah, Carrie, seeing in this moment? Yeah, Carrie, there is just nothing like the World Cup there is just nothing like the World Cup there is just nothing like the World Cup that brings people together. I was that brings people together. I was that brings people together. I was recently at a pastor's gathering that recently at a pastor's gathering that recently at a pastor's gathering that was hosted by Victory Beyond the Cup, was hosted by Victory Beyond the Cup, was hosted by Victory Beyond the Cup, and I was speaking to a woman who was so and I was speaking to a woman who was so and I was speaking to a woman who was so excited to share her love of Jesus and excited to share her love of Jesus and excited to share her love of Jesus and her love of soccer with her family and her love of soccer with her family and her love of soccer with her family and friends. She knew firsthand the impact friends. She knew firsthand the impact friends. She knew firsthand the impact of the World Cup. She grew up in of the World Cup. She grew up in of the World Cup. She grew up in Colombia and she said that when the Colombia and she said that when the Colombia and she said that when the national team would play, there would be national team would play, there would be national team would play, there would be guerrilla fighters, their captives, and guerrilla fighters, their captives, and guerrilla fighters, their captives, and police officers all standing shoulder to police officers all standing shoulder to police officers all standing shoulder to shoulder watching the game. She said for shoulder watching the game. She said for shoulder watching the game. She said for 90 minutes her country was at peace. So, 90 minutes her country was at peace. So, 90 minutes her country was at peace. So, this is a unique moment that the church this is a unique moment that the church this is a unique moment that the church can step into and it truly is a gift. can step into and it truly is a gift. can step into and it truly is a gift. And as believers, when people gather, we And as believers, when people gather, we And as believers, when people gather, we want to be there. We want to be the ones want to be there. We want to be the ones want to be there. We want to be the ones who open our homes, invite people in who open our homes, invite people in who open our homes, invite people in where conversations can shift and people where conversations can shift and people where conversations can shift and people open up.

open up. open up. So, you have a few people participating. So, you have a few people participating. So, you have a few people participating. Did I hear that? We have a few. Yeah, it Did I hear that? We have a few. Yeah, it Did I hear that? We have a few. Yeah, it has been so fun to see. We have 60,000 has been so fun to see. We have 60,000 has been so fun to see. We have 60,000 pastors who have engaged and downloaded pastors who have engaged and downloaded pastors who have engaged and downloaded the pastors kit, which is one of those the pastors kit, which is one of those the pastors kit, which is one of those great ways that people can be involved. great ways that people can be involved. great ways that people can be involved. And then we've had over 50,000 people And then we've had over 50,000 people And then we've had over 50,000 people order the free kits or download the order the free kits or download the order the free kits or download the digital kits. digital kits. digital kits. Okay. So, if people want to get in on Okay. So, if people want to get in on Okay. So, if people want to get in on it, how do they do it? It's so simple. it, how do they do it? It's so simple. it, how do they do it? It's so simple. Like I said, there's two free kits. Like I said, there's two free kits. Like I said, there's two free kits. There's one for pastors that can help There's one for pastors that can help There's one for pastors that can help you cast vision and equip your church you cast vision and equip your church you cast vision and equip your church and there's another for people that you and there's another for people that you and there's another for people that you can use to host watch parties that can use to host watch parties that can use to host watch parties that really feel natural and unforced. And really feel natural and unforced. And really feel natural and unforced. And so, when leaders share this, it spreads. so, when leaders share this, it spreads. so, when leaders share this, it spreads. Homes open, relationships form, and Homes open, relationships form, and Homes open, relationships form, and people start to have real conversations people start to have real conversations people start to have real conversations about faith. about faith. about faith. So, leaders, you can imagine your church So, leaders, you can imagine your church So, leaders, you can imagine your church a few weeks from now, people building a few weeks from now, people building a few weeks from now, people building relationships, having real relationships, having real relationships, having real relationships, and real conversations relationships, and real conversations relationships, and real conversations over a World Cup match. So, if you want over a World Cup match. So, if you want over a World Cup match. So, if you want to help your people step into that, to help your people step into that, to help your people step into that, visit victorybeyondthecup.com. visit victorybeyondthecup.com. visit victorybeyondthecup.com. That's victorybeyondthecup.com That's victorybeyondthecup.com That's victorybeyondthecup.com and access the free tools. This episode and access the free tools. This episode and access the free tools. This episode is brought to you by Alpha USA. So, the is brought to you by Alpha USA. So, the is brought to you by Alpha USA. So, the data is pretty striking right now.

data is pretty striking right now. data is pretty striking right now. Spiritual curiosity is rising, Spiritual curiosity is rising, Spiritual curiosity is rising, especially among young adults as we've especially among young adults as we've especially among young adults as we've talked about over and over again on this talked about over and over again on this talked about over and over again on this podcast. People who walked away from podcast. People who walked away from podcast. People who walked away from faith are asking questions, but here's faith are asking questions, but here's faith are asking questions, but here's the tension a lot of church leaders the tension a lot of church leaders the tension a lot of church leaders feel. The curiosity is real, but your feel. The curiosity is real, but your feel. The curiosity is real, but your church isn't quite sure how to meet it. church isn't quite sure how to meet it. church isn't quite sure how to meet it. Alpha was built exactly for this moment. Alpha was built exactly for this moment. Alpha was built exactly for this moment. It's a free guide to lead a series of It's a free guide to lead a series of It's a free guide to lead a series of conversations so people can unpack the conversations so people can unpack the conversations so people can unpack the basics of the Christian faith together. basics of the Christian faith together. basics of the Christian faith together. No pressure, just honest conversation No pressure, just honest conversation No pressure, just honest conversation over a good meal. Any church, any size, over a good meal. Any church, any size, over a good meal. Any church, any size, fully supported, nothing to build from fully supported, nothing to build from fully supported, nothing to build from scratch. So, if your church is ready to scratch. So, if your church is ready to scratch. So, if your church is ready to open a door for the people in your open a door for the people in your open a door for the people in your community who are searching, Alpha has a community who are searching, Alpha has a community who are searching, Alpha has a free three-step launch plan that shows free three-step launch plan that shows free three-step launch plan that shows exactly how to get your first gathering exactly how to get your first gathering exactly how to get your first gathering off the ground. So, download it at off the ground. So, download it at off the ground. So, download it at alphausa.org/carey. alphausa.org/carey. alphausa.org/carey. That's Alpha, a l p h a usa.org/carey. Yeah, we're going to talk about um Yeah, we're going to talk about um spiritual minimalism, you know, your new spiritual minimalism, you know, your new spiritual minimalism, you know, your new work Uncluttered Faith, which I think work Uncluttered Faith, which I think work Uncluttered Faith, which I think has some interesting application. I am a has some interesting application. I am a has some interesting application. I am a little bit fascinated with the whole little bit fascinated with the whole little bit fascinated with the whole accumulation thing. I mean, over the accumulation thing. I mean, over the accumulation thing. I mean, over the last few years we've just emptied out my last few years we've just emptied out my last few years we've just emptied out my my uh my uh my uh My parents are pretty minimalist. Like My parents are pretty minimalist. Like My parents are pretty minimalist. Like uh my mom purges on a regular basis, but uh my mom purges on a regular basis, but uh my mom purges on a regular basis, but we had to go through another family we had to go through another family we had to go through another family house where there was literally 60, 70 house where there was literally 60, 70 house where there was literally 60, 70 years of stuff, and it was brutal. I years of stuff, and it was brutal. I years of stuff, and it was brutal. I mean, exhausting, mean, exhausting, mean, exhausting, confusing, confusing, confusing, and I got to the point where I had a and I got to the point where I had a and I got to the point where I had a couple of of difficult years. I had a

couple of of difficult years. I had a couple of of difficult years. I had a health challenge last year. I had some health challenge last year. I had some health challenge last year. I had some other stressors the year before, and I other stressors the year before, and I other stressors the year before, and I moved into 2026, and it was funny, I was moved into 2026, and it was funny, I was moved into 2026, and it was funny, I was talking with a buddy of mine who sold talking with a buddy of mine who sold talking with a buddy of mine who sold his company, and one of those guys who his company, and one of those guys who his company, and one of those guys who just has the opportunity to do whatever just has the opportunity to do whatever just has the opportunity to do whatever he wants. Like, it's amazing. he wants. Like, it's amazing. he wants. Like, it's amazing. And I told him my word of the year, I've And I told him my word of the year, I've And I told him my word of the year, I've never done a word of the year before, never done a word of the year before, never done a word of the year before, but my word for 2026 is simplify. but my word for 2026 is simplify. but my word for 2026 is simplify. And it's simply running everything I I And it's simply running everything I I And it's simply running everything I I do do do uh and everything I purchase through a uh and everything I purchase through a uh and everything I purchase through a filter. Does this make my life simpler filter. Does this make my life simpler filter. Does this make my life simpler or more complex? And what I realized, or more complex? And what I realized, or more complex? And what I realized, you know, we if you come to my garage, you know, we if you come to my garage, you know, we if you come to my garage, you go, "Oh, you got minimalism under you go, "Oh, you got minimalism under you go, "Oh, you got minimalism under it. Like you don't have a lot of it. Like you don't have a lot of it. Like you don't have a lot of clutter. There's not a lot of junk. clutter. There's not a lot of junk. clutter. There's not a lot of junk. Everything has a place." And it's Everything has a place." And it's Everything has a place." And it's I could do a lot better in that respect, I could do a lot better in that respect, I could do a lot better in that respect, but it's not like like but it's not like like but it's not like like it's not 50 years of accumulated it's not 50 years of accumulated it's not 50 years of accumulated garbage. We we we purge regularly. But I garbage. We we we purge regularly. But I garbage. We we we purge regularly. But I realized that there's just a natural realized that there's just a natural realized that there's just a natural creep. And particularly when you get creep. And particularly when you get creep. And particularly when you get into your later years, you know, I'm in into your later years, you know, I'm in into your later years, you know, I'm in my 60s now, my 60s now, my 60s now, and you've saved money, and you can go and you've saved money, and you can go and you've saved money, and you can go and buy what you want. Every purchase I and buy what you want. Every purchase I and buy what you want. Every purchase I can't buy everything I want, but I can can't buy everything I want, but I can can't buy everything I want, but I can buy more things than I could 20 years buy more things than I could 20 years buy more things than I could 20 years ago.

ago. ago. It's like some of these things that seem It's like some of these things that seem It's like some of these things that seem really like great ideas. My wife loves really like great ideas. My wife loves really like great ideas. My wife loves saunas. saunas. saunas. It's like one more thing to maintain. It's like one more thing to maintain. It's like one more thing to maintain. One more thing that could break. One One more thing that could break. One One more thing that could break. One more thing that could go wrong. And so, more thing that could go wrong. And so, more thing that could go wrong. And so, I'm not saying we won't get a sauna, but I'm not saying we won't get a sauna, but I'm not saying we won't get a sauna, but I'm running everything through that I'm running everything through that I'm running everything through that filter to the point where filter to the point where filter to the point where I even just swapped out our garden I even just swapped out our garden I even just swapped out our garden hoses. My wife's a big gardener. I like hoses. My wife's a big gardener. I like hoses. My wife's a big gardener. I like to clean stuff uh in my spare time. And to clean stuff uh in my spare time. And to clean stuff uh in my spare time. And you know, I was buying industrial type you know, I was buying industrial type you know, I was buying industrial type 3/4 inch hoses just because they were 3/4 inch hoses just because they were 3/4 inch hoses just because they were the good stuff. the good stuff. the good stuff. And I realized they're heavy, they're And I realized they're heavy, they're And I realized they're heavy, they're awkward. So, I saw this like much awkward. So, I saw this like much awkward. So, I saw this like much smaller, much lighter, and we have a big smaller, much lighter, and we have a big smaller, much lighter, and we have a big yard, so 200-ft hose. yard, so 200-ft hose. yard, so 200-ft hose. This is just simpler. This is just simpler. This is just simpler. And I don't know. It's just there And I don't know. It's just there And I don't know. It's just there there's a complexity to stuff, end of there's a complexity to stuff, end of there's a complexity to stuff, end of sermon here. But there's a complexity to sermon here. But there's a complexity to sermon here. But there's a complexity to stuff that's really getting under my stuff that's really getting under my stuff that's really getting under my skin these days. And I'm thinking even skin these days. And I'm thinking even skin these days. And I'm thinking even I've I'm going to switch cars this year. I've I'm going to switch cars this year. I've I'm going to switch cars this year. What do I have that is like the least What do I have that is like the least What do I have that is like the least amount I need to think about? Because I amount I need to think about? Because I amount I need to think about? Because I want to keep Ben within my life for what want to keep Ben within my life for what want to keep Ben within my life for what really matters. Not possessions, but really matters. Not possessions, but really matters. Not possessions, but people, people, people, etc. etc. So, any any thoughts on that etc. etc. So, any any thoughts on that etc. etc. So, any any thoughts on that on on the natural creep of complexity, on on the natural creep of complexity, on on the natural creep of complexity, simplification as a I guess I'm here as simplification as a I guess I'm here as simplification as a I guess I'm here as a client today, Joshua. So, a client today, Joshua. So, a client today, Joshua. So, you know, any thoughts or advice you you know, any thoughts or advice you you know, any thoughts or advice you would have for me on that front?

would have for me on that front? would have for me on that front? Well, I think your story is pretty Well, I think your story is pretty Well, I think your story is pretty common. Uh I think that this is common. Uh I think that this is common. Uh I think that this is this is what culture is. This is what this is what culture is. This is what this is what culture is. This is what our world is, at least in developed our world is, at least in developed our world is, at least in developed nations. nations. nations. Um we are Um we are Um we are constantly told that more is better. constantly told that more is better. constantly told that more is better. And it's not And it's not And it's not it's not like, "Hey, it's not like, "Hey, it's not like, "Hey, more stuff is better." Like, that's not more stuff is better." Like, that's not more stuff is better." Like, that's not the the billboard. It's "Hey, this the the billboard. It's "Hey, this the the billboard. It's "Hey, this product will improve your life." Uh we product will improve your life." Uh we product will improve your life." Uh we see 5,000 advertisements every single see 5,000 advertisements every single see 5,000 advertisements every single day. And when you think about it, every day. And when you think about it, every day. And when you think about it, every single advertisement, at its core, at single advertisement, at its core, at single advertisement, at its core, at its foundation, is saying, "Your life its foundation, is saying, "Your life its foundation, is saying, "Your life will be better will be better will be better if you buy whatever we're selling." if you buy whatever we're selling." if you buy whatever we're selling." And I think we live in a world where And I think we live in a world where And I think we live in a world where excess has become so normalized. Like, excess has become so normalized. Like, excess has become so normalized. Like, when you look at the statistics of how when you look at the statistics of how when you look at the statistics of how much we own today compared to what even much we own today compared to what even much we own today compared to what even our grandparents owned, it is our grandparents owned, it is our grandparents owned, it is it is night and day. Our homes are three it is night and day. Our homes are three it is night and day. Our homes are three times the size that they were 50 years times the size that they were 50 years times the size that they were 50 years ago. 18% of us rent off-site storage.

ago. 18% of us rent off-site storage. ago. 18% of us rent off-site storage. And our family sizes are smaller. Uh we And our family sizes are smaller. Uh we And our family sizes are smaller. Uh we buy four we buy four times as much buy four we buy four times as much buy four we buy four times as much clothing as we did just in the year clothing as we did just in the year clothing as we did just in the year 2000. 2000. 2000. And what I've come to realize, Carrie, And what I've come to realize, Carrie, And what I've come to realize, Carrie, is that it's it's just an unintentional is that it's it's just an unintentional is that it's it's just an unintentional way of life. It's just what everyone way of life. It's just what everyone way of life. It's just what everyone else is doing. And so, it feels normal. else is doing. And so, it feels normal. else is doing. And so, it feels normal. Um I I start buying into the thinking Um I I start buying into the thinking Um I I start buying into the thinking that a bigger house would be better, a that a bigger house would be better, a that a bigger house would be better, a nicer car would be better, more clothes nicer car would be better, more clothes nicer car would be better, more clothes would be better, an upgrade would be would be better, an upgrade would be would be better, an upgrade would be better. better. better. Um but but it's not true. Like, we we Um but but it's not true. Like, we we Um but but it's not true. Like, we we have bigger dreams that we dream for our have bigger dreams that we dream for our have bigger dreams that we dream for our life. I life. I life. I Like no one says that their biggest Like no one says that their biggest Like no one says that their biggest dream in life is just to own a house dream in life is just to own a house dream in life is just to own a house full of clutter. Like that's no one's full of clutter. Like that's no one's full of clutter. Like that's no one's greatest dream. We just very greatest dream. We just very greatest dream. We just very unintentionally fall into it uh until we unintentionally fall into it uh until we unintentionally fall into it uh until we take back control and and the problem is take back control and and the problem is take back control and and the problem is that we all live finite lives, finite that we all live finite lives, finite that we all live finite lives, finite amount of time and resources and energy amount of time and resources and energy amount of time and resources and energy and attention and focus and passion and and attention and focus and passion and and attention and focus and passion and when we direct those things towards the when we direct those things towards the when we direct those things towards the wrong things, uh we miss out on the wrong things, uh we miss out on the wrong things, uh we miss out on the things that actually bring real meaning, things that actually bring real meaning, things that actually bring real meaning, fulfillment, and fruit for the kingdom.

fulfillment, and fruit for the kingdom. fulfillment, and fruit for the kingdom. We were kicking some real estate tires We were kicking some real estate tires We were kicking some real estate tires uh uh uh earlier this month, my wife and I, just earlier this month, my wife and I, just earlier this month, my wife and I, just to say, "Are we going to stay in this to say, "Are we going to stay in this to say, "Are we going to stay in this house or we're going to move, you know, house or we're going to move, you know, house or we're going to move, you know, up or down the road a little bit?" So, up or down the road a little bit?" So, up or down the road a little bit?" So, looked at a variety of houses and there looked at a variety of houses and there looked at a variety of houses and there was a nice study in contrast, one that was a nice study in contrast, one that was a nice study in contrast, one that was built a long time ago. was built a long time ago. was built a long time ago. The closets were tiny. I mean, you think The closets were tiny. I mean, you think The closets were tiny. I mean, you think about houses mid-century, 20th century about houses mid-century, 20th century about houses mid-century, 20th century homes, homes, homes, you have a closet about the width of you have a closet about the width of you have a closet about the width of this desk and everything fit in there. this desk and everything fit in there. this desk and everything fit in there. And then we saw another house where the And then we saw another house where the And then we saw another house where the principal bedroom, the closet, was principal bedroom, the closet, was principal bedroom, the closet, was almost the size of a bedroom itself. It almost the size of a bedroom itself. It almost the size of a bedroom itself. It was insane. We just wanted to see what was insane. We just wanted to see what was insane. We just wanted to see what was out there. was out there. was out there. We're staying put very happily. But, um We're staying put very happily. But, um We're staying put very happily. But, um it blew me away. Like, how much do you it blew me away. Like, how much do you it blew me away. Like, how much do you need? And then you have this stat, need? And then you have this stat, need? And then you have this stat, something like people don't wear something like people don't wear something like people don't wear something like 82% of their wardrobe. something like 82% of their wardrobe. something like 82% of their wardrobe. You're saying, I think I heard you say You're saying, I think I heard you say You're saying, I think I heard you say we own four times as many clothes as we we own four times as many clothes as we we own four times as many clothes as we did in 2000. did in 2000. did in 2000. And uh we don't wear 82% of what we own. And uh we don't wear 82% of what we own. And uh we don't wear 82% of what we own. Can Can you explain that a little bit?

Can Can you explain that a little bit? Can Can you explain that a little bit? That's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah, you know, the craziest part about Yeah, you know, the craziest part about Yeah, you know, the craziest part about it is um it is um it is um they they actually did a study on they they actually did a study on they they actually did a study on uh what percentage of clothes do you uh what percentage of clothes do you uh what percentage of clothes do you wear in a year wear in a year wear in a year uh compared to what percent you think uh compared to what percent you think uh compared to what percent you think you wear you wear you wear in the course of a year? Yeah. in the course of a year? Yeah. in the course of a year? Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And uh 82% of an American's clothing is >> And uh 82% of an American's clothing is >> And uh 82% of an American's clothing is not worn over the course of a year. Uh not worn over the course of a year. Uh not worn over the course of a year. Uh and they're not We're not even the um and they're not We're not even the um and they're not We're not even the um like we're one of the top, but there's like we're one of the top, but there's like we're one of the top, but there's other countries just just as high, other other countries just just as high, other other countries just just as high, other developed nations that are that are just developed nations that are that are just developed nations that are that are just as high. But so we literally just wear as high. But so we literally just wear as high. But so we literally just wear 18%. But if you ask people, they'll say 18%. But if you ask people, they'll say 18%. But if you ask people, they'll say something like something like something like 50 or 60% of their clothes that they 50 or 60% of their clothes that they 50 or 60% of their clothes that they wear in a year, which is just wear in a year, which is just wear in a year, which is just um Number one, like I just go back to is um Number one, like I just go back to is um Number one, like I just go back to is just unintentional living. Like why in just unintentional living. Like why in just unintentional living. Like why in the world would we the world would we the world would we own four times as much clothing as we own four times as much clothing as we own four times as much clothing as we need? Um but number two, it's just need? Um but number two, it's just need? Um but number two, it's just distorted reality of how much we think distorted reality of how much we think distorted reality of how much we think we need, we need, we need, how much of our stuff we actually use.

how much of our stuff we actually use. how much of our stuff we actually use. Uh the 80/20 principle applies Uh the 80/20 principle applies Uh the 80/20 principle applies uh across the board, not just clothes uh across the board, not just clothes uh across the board, not just clothes that we wear and work that we do, but that we wear and work that we do, but that we wear and work that we do, but square footage that we use in our homes square footage that we use in our homes square footage that we use in our homes and um devices and you know, uh channels and um devices and you know, uh channels and um devices and you know, uh channels that we watch and um tools that we use that we watch and um tools that we use that we watch and um tools that we use in our kitchen and I think getting a in our kitchen and I think getting a in our kitchen and I think getting a handle on that and understanding that in handle on that and understanding that in handle on that and understanding that in many ways owning less isn't many ways owning less isn't many ways owning less isn't a sacrifice, it's not a burden, uh it is a sacrifice, it's not a burden, uh it is a sacrifice, it's not a burden, uh it is a more freeing, better way to live a a more freeing, better way to live a a more freeing, better way to live a more fulfilling life is one of the most more fulfilling life is one of the most more fulfilling life is one of the most important realizations that I think any important realizations that I think any important realizations that I think any of us can have cuz it's incredibly of us can have cuz it's incredibly of us can have cuz it's incredibly incredibly freeing and life-giving. incredibly freeing and life-giving. incredibly freeing and life-giving. Joshua, this isn't a throwaway question, Joshua, this isn't a throwaway question, Joshua, this isn't a throwaway question, although it might sound like that, but although it might sound like that, but although it might sound like that, but like you've spent the last 15 years like you've spent the last 15 years like you've spent the last 15 years thinking about this every single day. thinking about this every single day. thinking about this every single day. And I'm genuinely curious, And I'm genuinely curious, And I'm genuinely curious, how did we get here? how did we get here? how did we get here? Yeah, there's 5,000 ads we see every day Yeah, there's 5,000 ads we see every day Yeah, there's 5,000 ads we see every day and ads are basically, you know that and ads are basically, you know that and ads are basically, you know that phone you spent $2,000 on last year, phone you spent $2,000 on last year, phone you spent $2,000 on last year, it's not good enough anymore. Need new it's not good enough anymore. Need new it's not good enough anymore. Need new one, right? So we get that, but like one, right? So we get that, but like one, right? So we get that, but like what is it about the human psyche? What what is it about the human psyche? What what is it about the human psyche? What is it about um the way we're wired or is it about um the way we're wired or is it about um the way we're wired or the way our culture is wired the way our culture is wired the way our culture is wired that makes this almost inevitable unless that makes this almost inevitable unless that makes this almost inevitable unless you call an audible and stop and decide you call an audible and stop and decide you call an audible and stop and decide to live a different way. I'm I'm just to live a different way. I'm I'm just to live a different way. I'm I'm just really curious.

really curious. really curious. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Well, I think that the human spirit has >> Well, I think that the human spirit has >> Well, I think that the human spirit has not changed over thousands and thousands not changed over thousands and thousands not changed over thousands and thousands of years. of years. of years. Uh Jesus talked often about greed and Uh Jesus talked often about greed and Uh Jesus talked often about greed and money and possessions and even before money and possessions and even before money and possessions and even before Jesus shows up on the on the on the on Jesus shows up on the on the on the on Jesus shows up on the on the on the on the scene, John the Baptist is like, the scene, John the Baptist is like, the scene, John the Baptist is like, "Give away your extra coats and give "Give away your extra coats and give "Give away your extra coats and give away your extra food and be content with away your extra food and be content with away your extra food and be content with what you have." And so um I don't think what you have." And so um I don't think what you have." And so um I don't think anything has changed in the human anything has changed in the human anything has changed in the human spirit. It's all the same motivations. spirit. It's all the same motivations. spirit. It's all the same motivations. It's greed and it's jealousy and it's It's greed and it's jealousy and it's It's greed and it's jealousy and it's wanting to impress people and it's wanting to impress people and it's wanting to impress people and it's worry. worry. worry. Um it's Um it's Um it's buying into culture, it's accumulating buying into culture, it's accumulating buying into culture, it's accumulating the world, and the world, and the world, and uh shiny and flashy things. Like, I uh shiny and flashy things. Like, I uh shiny and flashy things. Like, I think all of those think all of those think all of those uh temptations and heart attitudes are uh temptations and heart attitudes are uh temptations and heart attitudes are there, there, there, um um um which is difficult. It's which is difficult. It's which is difficult. It's actually one of the the greatest actually one of the the greatest actually one of the the greatest spiritual benefits I found of owning spiritual benefits I found of owning spiritual benefits I found of owning less was that I was forced to wrestle less was that I was forced to wrestle less was that I was forced to wrestle with some of these things. Mhm. Um with some of these things. Mhm. Um with some of these things. Mhm. Um discovering what some of the motivations discovering what some of the motivations discovering what some of the motivations have been, even if it's just family have been, even if it's just family have been, even if it's just family pressure, trying to impress parents, or pressure, trying to impress parents, or pressure, trying to impress parents, or what I grew up. And what I grew up. And what I grew up. And well, um well, um well, um for me, I I I think it's a need to for me, I I I think it's a need to for me, I I I think it's a need to impress, uh need to prove that I was impress, uh need to prove that I was impress, uh need to prove that I was being successful. Um Yeah, plus all the others, you know, Yeah, plus all the others, you know, jealousy and greed and uh a lot of those

jealousy and greed and uh a lot of those jealousy and greed and uh a lot of those things. But I I think, Carrie, probably things. But I I think, Carrie, probably things. But I I think, Carrie, probably the difference today is and it's not a the difference today is and it's not a the difference today is and it's not a throwaway question, it's an important throwaway question, it's an important throwaway question, it's an important one. Yeah. Uh we have more one. Yeah. Uh we have more one. Yeah. Uh we have more uh more objects are affordable and uh more objects are affordable and uh more objects are affordable and accessible than ever before. We can get accessible than ever before. We can get accessible than ever before. We can get things at our doorstep with a click of a things at our doorstep with a click of a things at our doorstep with a click of a button. Things are cheaper than they've button. Things are cheaper than they've button. Things are cheaper than they've ever been. I think certainly at least in ever been. I think certainly at least in ever been. I think certainly at least in America and around the world, despite America and around the world, despite America and around the world, despite what people might think, we have far what people might think, we have far what people might think, we have far more money than we've ever had in the more money than we've ever had in the more money than we've ever had in the past. past. past. And you've got algorithms and you've got And you've got algorithms and you've got And you've got algorithms and you've got social media and you have literally social media and you have literally social media and you have literally computers with ones and zeros knowing computers with ones and zeros knowing computers with ones and zeros knowing exactly what commercial to feed us at exactly what commercial to feed us at exactly what commercial to feed us at what time of day, what website we like. what time of day, what website we like. what time of day, what website we like. And so it's all tailored and And so it's all tailored and And so it's all tailored and personalized to a degree that's never personalized to a degree that's never personalized to a degree that's never been before. Things are accessible and been before. Things are accessible and been before. Things are accessible and affordable and human heart hasn't affordable and human heart hasn't affordable and human heart hasn't changed all that much. Hey, before you changed all that much. Hey, before you changed all that much. Hey, before you get back to the podcast, a quick get back to the podcast, a quick get back to the podcast, a quick personal note that I'm actually really personal note that I'm actually really personal note that I'm actually really excited to share with you. I've got a excited to share with you. I've got a excited to share with you. I've got a new book coming out September 15th. It's new book coming out September 15th. It's new book coming out September 15th. It's called AI in the future church, make called AI in the future church, make called AI in the future church, make your ministry irreplaceable in a world your ministry irreplaceable in a world your ministry irreplaceable in a world of artificial everything. And I want to of artificial everything. And I want to of artificial everything. And I want to tell you about why I wrote it. So, I've tell you about why I wrote it. So, I've tell you about why I wrote it. So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for the last been in an AI rabbit hole for the last been in an AI rabbit hole for the last two years, deep deep study and I believe two years, deep deep study and I believe two years, deep deep study and I believe that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running toward exactly what the church offers, toward exactly what the church offers, toward exactly what the church offers, real community, unchanging truth, real community, unchanging truth, real community, unchanging truth, connection that means something. And

connection that means something. And connection that means something. And here's why, a world growing more here's why, a world growing more here's why, a world growing more artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And the church has been answering the the church has been answering the the church has been answering the question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond prompts and you got to see what's prompts and you got to see what's prompts and you got to see what's coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and start leading and if you make the shifts start leading and if you make the shifts start leading and if you make the shifts that this moment requires, that this moment requires, that this moment requires, I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the future, no matter what AI ushers in. future, no matter what AI ushers in. future, no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at careynieuwhof.com/ai careynieuwhof.com/ai careynieuwhof.com/ai or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get your books. Both links wherever you get your books. Both links wherever you get your books. Both links are in the show notes, so pre-order your are in the show notes, so pre-order your are in the show notes, so pre-order your copy today and you'll be set to receive copy today and you'll be set to receive copy today and you'll be set to receive your copy immediately after it releases your copy immediately after it releases your copy immediately after it releases on September 15th, plus get some pretty on September 15th, plus get some pretty on September 15th, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. In your view, has it cool bonuses. In your view, has it cool bonuses. In your view, has it gotten like you embraced this almost 20 gotten like you embraced this almost 20 gotten like you embraced this almost 20 years ago, 18 years ago, right? Or 16 years ago, 18 years ago, right? Or 16 years ago, 18 years ago, right? Or 16 years ago, I guess. Minimalism.

years ago, I guess. Minimalism. years ago, I guess. Minimalism. If I got my timeline right. How If I got my timeline right. How If I got my timeline right. How has it gotten harder or easier in your has it gotten harder or easier in your has it gotten harder or easier in your view, either for you or for most people? view, either for you or for most people? view, either for you or for most people? Because of the algorithm. Like Because of the algorithm. Like Because of the algorithm. Like Instagram, the the ad algorithm knows me Instagram, the the ad algorithm knows me Instagram, the the ad algorithm knows me so well, and I have so well, and I have so well, and I have fallen prey to shopping on Instagram, fallen prey to shopping on Instagram, fallen prey to shopping on Instagram, which I never thought I would do, but which I never thought I would do, but which I never thought I would do, but it's like little things. Like this I it's like little things. Like this I it's like little things. Like this I think I found on Instagram. They know think I found on Instagram. They know think I found on Instagram. They know me. It's like I'm a guy who wears me. It's like I'm a guy who wears me. It's like I'm a guy who wears overshirts, and so they somehow figured overshirts, and so they somehow figured overshirts, and so they somehow figured that out. They figured out I don't like that out. They figured out I don't like that out. They figured out I don't like scratches on cars, cuz I probably watch scratches on cars, cuz I probably watch scratches on cars, cuz I probably watch a lot of detailing accounts. Those a lot of detailing accounts. Those a lot of detailing accounts. Those things are fascinating. So, I the other things are fascinating. So, I the other things are fascinating. So, I the other day I got this little scratch pen that's day I got this little scratch pen that's day I got this little scratch pen that's supposed to take a little scratch out of supposed to take a little scratch out of supposed to take a little scratch out of my car. I'm like, "Okay, we'll see if it my car. I'm like, "Okay, we'll see if it my car. I'm like, "Okay, we'll see if it works, you know, it's only 20 bucks or works, you know, it's only 20 bucks or works, you know, it's only 20 bucks or whatever." But like, has it gotten whatever." But like, has it gotten whatever." But like, has it gotten easier? Has it gotten harder for you? easier? Has it gotten harder for you? easier? Has it gotten harder for you? And then, what do you think about for And then, what do you think about for And then, what do you think about for most people? most people? most people? Yeah, I mean, I think for most people Yeah, I mean, I think for most people Yeah, I mean, I think for most people it's gotten it's gotten harder. Uh it's it's gotten it's gotten harder. Uh it's it's gotten it's gotten harder. Uh it's gotten more difficult. There are some gotten more difficult. There are some gotten more difficult. There are some streams moving in the right direction. streams moving in the right direction. streams moving in the right direction. Like I think technology Like I think technology Like I think technology makes owning less much easier today than makes owning less much easier today than makes owning less much easier today than 20, 30, 40 years ago. I mean, my phone 20, 30, 40 years ago. I mean, my phone 20, 30, 40 years ago. I mean, my phone is like a is like a is like a Mary Poppins handbag, right? Like I my Mary Poppins handbag, right? Like I my Mary Poppins handbag, right? Like I my credit cards and my movies and my photos credit cards and my movies and my photos credit cards and my movies and my photos and maps and like everything all my CDs and maps and like everything all my CDs and maps and like everything all my CDs like everything is in this in this one like everything is in this in this one like everything is in this in this one little device that's really small.

little device that's really small. little device that's really small. So in that way and it's easier to share So in that way and it's easier to share So in that way and it's easier to share like the sharing economy has certainly like the sharing economy has certainly like the sharing economy has certainly exploded and so there's some things that exploded and so there's some things that exploded and so there's some things that have made it easier but I mean the stat have made it easier but I mean the stat have made it easier but I mean the stat that I keep going back to is that I keep going back to is that I keep going back to is like we buy five times as much clothing like we buy five times as much clothing like we buy five times as much clothing as we did in the year 2000 and so as we did in the year 2000 and so as we did in the year 2000 and so it is it is it is like that's just 25 years ago and yet like that's just 25 years ago and yet like that's just 25 years ago and yet we're we're we're and we had enough 25 years ago we had and we had enough 25 years ago we had and we had enough 25 years ago we had more than we needed 25 years ago and more than we needed 25 years ago and more than we needed 25 years ago and we're buying four five times as much. So we're buying four five times as much. So we're buying four five times as much. So definitely more difficult and I'm not definitely more difficult and I'm not definitely more difficult and I'm not sure with the advent of AI it's going to sure with the advent of AI it's going to sure with the advent of AI it's going to get any easier in the future. I want to get any easier in the future. I want to get any easier in the future. I want to get into the spiritual components of get into the spiritual components of get into the spiritual components of minimalism but I want to go back cuz you minimalism but I want to go back cuz you minimalism but I want to go back cuz you you did something that's pretty you did something that's pretty you did something that's pretty extraordinary. extraordinary. extraordinary. When you were on church staff in Vermont When you were on church staff in Vermont When you were on church staff in Vermont in Arizona, I'm sure you weren't being in Arizona, I'm sure you weren't being in Arizona, I'm sure you weren't being paid ridiculous amounts of money. You paid ridiculous amounts of money. You paid ridiculous amounts of money. You were making what a youth pastor makes, were making what a youth pastor makes, were making what a youth pastor makes, you're making what an associate pastor you're making what an associate pastor you're making what an associate pastor makes. makes. makes. And you said yeah you had a little bit And you said yeah you had a little bit And you said yeah you had a little bit of extra income from um of extra income from um of extra income from um your side project which is now your main your side project which is now your main your side project which is now your main thing.

thing. thing. But But But you saved nine months in the bank you saved nine months in the bank you saved nine months in the bank before you made the leap. before you made the leap. before you made the leap. How how does one do that? And I'm How how does one do that? And I'm How how does one do that? And I'm thinking about everybody listening here. thinking about everybody listening here. thinking about everybody listening here. You know you know the stat that most You know you know the stat that most You know you know the stat that most people are $400 away from not being able people are $400 away from not being able people are $400 away from not being able to make a major repair something happens to make a major repair something happens to make a major repair something happens to their car and their house that to their car and their house that to their car and their house that you know the fridge breaks you got to you know the fridge breaks you got to you know the fridge breaks you got to buy a new fridge. Buy now pay later is buy a new fridge. Buy now pay later is buy a new fridge. Buy now pay later is through the roof because people don't through the roof because people don't through the roof because people don't have the money have the money have the money to buy now so they pay later. to buy now so they pay later. to buy now so they pay later. How did you do that? Well there was a little bit of money Well there was a little bit of money coming in from what I was doing online coming in from what I was doing online coming in from what I was doing online but not not much. Um but not not much. Um but not not much. Um Honestly Jerry the amount Honestly Jerry the amount Honestly Jerry the amount This is so true and people don't like This is so true and people don't like This is so true and people don't like hearing it, but they need to hear it. hearing it, but they need to hear it. hearing it, but they need to hear it. The amount of money The amount of money The amount of money that we waste on buying things that we that we waste on buying things that we that we waste on buying things that we don't need is shocking. don't need is shocking. don't need is shocking. Um this is a this is a 10-year-old stat Um this is a this is a 10-year-old stat Um this is a this is a 10-year-old stat that Americans spend $1,500 a month on that Americans spend $1,500 a month on that Americans spend $1,500 a month on non-essentials. Like that's non-essentials. Like that's non-essentials. Like that's Um what's the math? Uh that's $18,000 Um what's the math? Uh that's $18,000 Um what's the math? Uh that's $18,000 $15,000 a year um right there are just $15,000 a year um right there are just $15,000 a year um right there are just buying things that they don't need. And buying things that they don't need. And buying things that they don't need. And and people always push back and they're and people always push back and they're and people always push back and they're like, "No, no, like I don't buy things I like, "No, no, like I don't buy things I like, "No, no, like I don't buy things I don't need. I'm just getting by on the don't need. I'm just getting by on the don't need. I'm just getting by on the bare minimum." And bare minimum." And bare minimum." And and yet their and yet their and yet their closets are full of things that they closets are full of things that they closets are full of things that they don't need. Their house is bigger than don't need. Their house is bigger than don't need. Their house is bigger than they need. Their

they need. Their they need. Their you know, kitchen cabinets are full of you know, kitchen cabinets are full of you know, kitchen cabinets are full of things that they don't need. And things that they don't need. And things that they don't need. And certainly there are some people who uh certainly there are some people who uh certainly there are some people who uh legitimately are in need and are legitimately are in need and are legitimately are in need and are legitimately getting by, but but even legitimately getting by, but but even legitimately getting by, but but even the even the poorest in our world today the even the poorest in our world today the even the poorest in our world today in in our country today live better than in in our country today live better than in in our country today live better than much of the rest of the world does. And much of the rest of the world does. And much of the rest of the world does. And um so honestly the the amount of money um so honestly the the amount of money um so honestly the the amount of money that we can save by intentionally owning that we can save by intentionally owning that we can save by intentionally owning just what we need to own. And by the just what we need to own. And by the just what we need to own. And by the way, I'm not saying own less than you way, I'm not saying own less than you way, I'm not saying own less than you need. I'm not saying like there's some need. I'm not saying like there's some need. I'm not saying like there's some rigid rules about how much you should rigid rules about how much you should rigid rules about how much you should own and how much you can't own. It's own and how much you can't own. It's own and how much you can't own. It's always going to be different for every always going to be different for every always going to be different for every single person. Um but just getting very single person. Um but just getting very single person. Um but just getting very clear and getting very intentional about clear and getting very intentional about clear and getting very intentional about keeping what I need is um I think the keeping what I need is um I think the keeping what I need is um I think the best way to financial freedom, which best way to financial freedom, which best way to financial freedom, which means a lot of things to different means a lot of things to different means a lot of things to different people. If they're in debt, then owning people. If they're in debt, then owning people. If they're in debt, then owning less means I can get out of debt. If I'm less means I can get out of debt. If I'm less means I can get out of debt. If I'm living paycheck to paycheck, owning less living paycheck to paycheck, owning less living paycheck to paycheck, owning less means I can get ahead and I can save means I can get ahead and I can save means I can get ahead and I can save some. If I have more than I need, some. If I have more than I need, some. If I have more than I need, intentionally owning less means I can intentionally owning less means I can intentionally owning less means I can give more away. I can I can be more give more away. I can I can be more give more away. I can I can be more generous.

generous. generous. Owning less Owning less Owning less spending less means I can choose a job spending less means I can choose a job spending less means I can choose a job based on something that I find meaning based on something that I find meaning based on something that I find meaning in rather than just doing the job that in rather than just doing the job that in rather than just doing the job that brings the bigger paycheck. So, brings the bigger paycheck. So, brings the bigger paycheck. So, um a lot of a lot of our life revolves um a lot of a lot of our life revolves um a lot of a lot of our life revolves around revolves around money and um most around revolves around money and um most around revolves around money and um most of us think we of us think we of us think we need more than we need, I hate to say, need more than we need, I hate to say, need more than we need, I hate to say, but there's life in that truth. but there's life in that truth. but there's life in that truth. >> you know, on a limited income who who >> you know, on a limited income who who >> you know, on a limited income who who wants to make a change and said, "Okay, wants to make a change and said, "Okay, wants to make a change and said, "Okay, you've read my mail. I get it. I get it. you've read my mail. I get it. I get it. you've read my mail. I get it. I get it. I get it." I get it." I get it." Take us back to some of the first cuts Take us back to some of the first cuts Take us back to some of the first cuts you made and then some of the cuts you made and then some of the cuts you made and then some of the cuts you're still not cuts, but they're just you're still not cuts, but they're just you're still not cuts, but they're just decisions you're not making. Sort of I'm decisions you're not making. Sort of I'm decisions you're not making. Sort of I'm looking at my notes here. What's the looking at my notes here. What's the looking at my notes here. What's the phrase? But what if I don't? Like what phrase? But what if I don't? Like what phrase? But what if I don't? Like what if I just don't buy that? What if I like if I just don't buy that? What if I like if I just don't buy that? What if I like how did that start? And then what are how did that start? And then what are how did that start? And then what are some of the other things that today you some of the other things that today you some of the other things that today you and your family are saying no to that a and your family are saying no to that a and your family are saying no to that a lot of people would say yes to? lot of people would say yes to? lot of people would say yes to? Well, interestingly enough, I I Well, interestingly enough, I I Well, interestingly enough, I I I always try to explain my lifestyle as I always try to explain my lifestyle as I always try to explain my lifestyle as I don't think I go without anything that I don't think I go without anything that I don't think I go without anything that a normal person would own.

a normal person would own. a normal person would own. We have clothes and furniture and we We have clothes and furniture and we We have clothes and furniture and we cook and we cook and we cook and we have a garage and we have a car. We have a garage and we have a car. We have a garage and we have a car. We have a car. have a car. have a car. >> We just have less of it. Like less of >> We just have less of it. Like less of >> We just have less of it. Like less of the duplicates, less of the excess, less the duplicates, less of the excess, less the duplicates, less of the excess, less of the square footage. And so life looks of the square footage. And so life looks of the square footage. And so life looks the same it's just streamlined and it's the same it's just streamlined and it's the same it's just streamlined and it's um it's intentional and um it's intentional and um it's intentional and I once had a um uh I do um I have a I once had a um uh I do um I have a I once had a um uh I do um I have a couple magazines that we publish. Um one couple magazines that we publish. Um one couple magazines that we publish. Um one of them is called uh Simple Simplify of them is called uh Simple Simplify of them is called uh Simple Simplify Magazine. Magazine. Magazine. I was doing a I was doing a I was doing a uh an issue on personal finance and I uh an issue on personal finance and I uh an issue on personal finance and I asked a professor from Arizona State, asked a professor from Arizona State, asked a professor from Arizona State, where I'm at here in Phoenix, and I where I'm at here in Phoenix, and I where I'm at here in Phoenix, and I said, "Would you write an article?" I said, "Would you write an article?" I said, "Would you write an article?" I said, said, said, "Picture this, you have the entire world "Picture this, you have the entire world "Picture this, you have the entire world in your classroom for 10 minutes. What in your classroom for 10 minutes. What in your classroom for 10 minutes. What is the one economic principle that you is the one economic principle that you is the one economic principle that you would want to tell the entire world? would want to tell the entire world? would want to tell the entire world? What's the one thing everybody needs to What's the one thing everybody needs to What's the one thing everybody needs to know?" know?" know?" And I've asked countless rooms of people And I've asked countless rooms of people And I've asked countless rooms of people this. What do you think he wrote about?

this. What do you think he wrote about? this. What do you think he wrote about? Uh, live within your means, you know, Uh, live within your means, you know, Uh, live within your means, you know, stay out of debt, compound interest, stay out of debt, compound interest, stay out of debt, compound interest, like all the different economic like all the different economic like all the different economic principles come back. Um, Kelvin Wong, principles come back. Um, Kelvin Wong, principles come back. Um, Kelvin Wong, Professor Kelvin Wong, wrote about Professor Kelvin Wong, wrote about Professor Kelvin Wong, wrote about opportunity cost. That every dollar we opportunity cost. That every dollar we opportunity cost. That every dollar we spend, that every minute we spend, we spend, that every minute we spend, we spend, that every minute we spend, we are giving up something else instead. are giving up something else instead. are giving up something else instead. Um, and so the whole idea of "What if I Um, and so the whole idea of "What if I Um, and so the whole idea of "What if I don't?" Like, "What if I don't buy don't?" Like, "What if I don't buy don't?" Like, "What if I don't buy excess clothes? What if I do downsize my excess clothes? What if I do downsize my excess clothes? What if I do downsize my home? What if I don't agree to this home? What if I don't agree to this home? What if I don't agree to this new work responsibility? What if I don't new work responsibility? What if I don't new work responsibility? What if I don't chase this new hobby? What would that chase this new hobby? What would that chase this new hobby? What would that open up my life for, um, and and to do? open up my life for, um, and and to do? open up my life for, um, and and to do? And um, in the in the book, I'll tell a And um, in the in the book, I'll tell a And um, in the in the book, I'll tell a story that I think is so helpful. story that I think is so helpful. story that I think is so helpful. In, um, in Uncluttered Faith, I go In, um, in Uncluttered Faith, I go In, um, in Uncluttered Faith, I go through, uh, 13 spiritual benefits of of through, uh, 13 spiritual benefits of of through, uh, 13 spiritual benefits of of owning less. Uh, one of them is this owning less. Uh, one of them is this owning less. Uh, one of them is this whole idea of opportunity cost. Uh, when whole idea of opportunity cost. Uh, when whole idea of opportunity cost. Uh, when we intentionally own less, we're able to we intentionally own less, we're able to we intentionally own less, we're able to become more intentional.

become more intentional. become more intentional. The classic story of this is Mary and The classic story of this is Mary and The classic story of this is Mary and Martha, uh, where the disciples and Martha, uh, where the disciples and Martha, uh, where the disciples and Jesus show up at Mary and Martha's home, Jesus show up at Mary and Martha's home, Jesus show up at Mary and Martha's home, and Martha immediately runs into what? and Martha immediately runs into what? and Martha immediately runs into what? Dealing with the stuff. Like, Mhm. doing Dealing with the stuff. Like, Mhm. doing Dealing with the stuff. Like, Mhm. doing the cooking, the preparing, cleaning the the cooking, the preparing, cleaning the the cooking, the preparing, cleaning the home. home. home. Mary just sits down at the feet of Mary just sits down at the feet of Mary just sits down at the feet of Jesus, and Martha gets frustrated, and Jesus, and Martha gets frustrated, and Jesus, and Martha gets frustrated, and she goes to Jesus and "Tell her to help she goes to Jesus and "Tell her to help she goes to Jesus and "Tell her to help me." And and what does Jesus say? He me." And and what does Jesus say? He me." And and what does Jesus say? He says, "Mary has chosen what is better, says, "Mary has chosen what is better, says, "Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken from her." and it will not be taken from her." and it will not be taken from her." And it's just the To me, it's just the And it's just the To me, it's just the And it's just the To me, it's just the perfect illustration of perfect illustration of perfect illustration of the average American spends 2 hours a the average American spends 2 hours a the average American spends 2 hours a day on their physical possessions, but day on their physical possessions, but day on their physical possessions, but just 10 minutes a day in their faith just 10 minutes a day in their faith just 10 minutes a day in their faith walk with God. walk with God. walk with God. And we are we are Martha. Like we're And we are we are Martha. Like we're And we are we are Martha. Like we're just running around shopping and just running around shopping and just running around shopping and organizing and cleaning, and Jesus is in organizing and cleaning, and Jesus is in organizing and cleaning, and Jesus is in the living room, and he's just saying, the living room, and he's just saying, the living room, and he's just saying, "You can choose what is better. You can "You can choose what is better. You can "You can choose what is better. You can choose to spend time with me instead."

choose to spend time with me instead." choose to spend time with me instead." You you've got a chapter in there called You you've got a chapter in there called You you've got a chapter in there called the end of anxiety. I think is that what the end of anxiety. I think is that what the end of anxiety. I think is that what it's called? Yeah, the end of anxiety. it's called? Yeah, the end of anxiety. it's called? Yeah, the end of anxiety. How is this overwhelm How is this overwhelm How is this overwhelm and simplicity connected to anxiety, and simplicity connected to anxiety, and simplicity connected to anxiety, Joshua? Well, fascinatingly, it is so good. Um Well, fascinatingly, it is so good. Um Anyone who knows these stories and knows Anyone who knows these stories and knows Anyone who knows these stories and knows these teachings, flip open your Bible to these teachings, flip open your Bible to these teachings, flip open your Bible to to Luke chapter 12, and and notice the to Luke chapter 12, and and notice the to Luke chapter 12, and and notice the progression of thought. In in Luke progression of thought. In in Luke progression of thought. In in Luke chapter 12, it starts with a man coming chapter 12, it starts with a man coming chapter 12, it starts with a man coming up to Jesus, and he says, "My brother up to Jesus, and he says, "My brother up to Jesus, and he says, "My brother won't share the inheritance with me. won't share the inheritance with me. won't share the inheritance with me. Make him do it." And Jesus is like, Make him do it." And Jesus is like, Make him do it." And Jesus is like, "Yeah, it's not my job. Like I don't "Yeah, it's not my job. Like I don't "Yeah, it's not my job. Like I don't have any legal authority here to handle have any legal authority here to handle have any legal authority here to handle that." And then he goes into this long that." And then he goes into this long that." And then he goes into this long teaching on greed. Be on guard against teaching on greed. Be on guard against teaching on greed. Be on guard against all kinds of greed. And he gives the all kinds of greed. And he gives the all kinds of greed. And he gives the story of the farmer who has a really story of the farmer who has a really story of the farmer who has a really bountiful harvest, bountiful harvest, bountiful harvest, makes a lot of money, and so what does makes a lot of money, and so what does makes a lot of money, and so what does he do? he do? he do? He puts an addition on his home. He He puts an addition on his home. He He puts an addition on his home. He builds bigger barns. He says, "I've I've builds bigger barns. He says, "I've I've builds bigger barns. He says, "I've I've I I have enough. I can retire. I can I I have enough. I can retire. I can I I have enough. I can retire. I can eat, drink, and be merry."

eat, drink, and be merry." eat, drink, and be merry." And Jesus says, "That's a foolish way to And Jesus says, "That's a foolish way to And Jesus says, "That's a foolish way to spend your money, and uh life is going spend your money, and uh life is going spend your money, and uh life is going to be taken from you today. And to be taken from you today. And to be taken from you today. And it's actually shocking when you think it's actually shocking when you think it's actually shocking when you think about it, Carey, because about it, Carey, because about it, Carey, because in many ways, that farmer was living the in many ways, that farmer was living the in many ways, that farmer was living the American dream. American dream. American dream. Like he was literally doing exactly what Like he was literally doing exactly what Like he was literally doing exactly what we want to do. We want our businesses to we want to do. We want our businesses to we want to do. We want our businesses to be successful. We want to expand. We be successful. We want to expand. We be successful. We want to expand. We want to grow. We want to make enough so want to grow. We want to make enough so want to grow. We want to make enough so that we can retire and we can eat, that we can retire and we can eat, that we can retire and we can eat, drink, and be merry. Um and so Jesus drink, and be merry. Um and so Jesus drink, and be merry. Um and so Jesus says this is uh a form of greed. says this is uh a form of greed. says this is uh a form of greed. On to your question, On to your question, On to your question, Jesus continues his teaching Jesus continues his teaching Jesus continues his teaching and he goes immediately into, and he goes immediately into, and he goes immediately into, "Therefore, don't worry about what what "Therefore, don't worry about what what "Therefore, don't worry about what what you eat and what you drink and your you eat and what you drink and your you eat and what you drink and your shelter and your clothes." This is where shelter and your clothes." This is where shelter and your clothes." This is where he goes into his teaching about, "Look he goes into his teaching about, "Look he goes into his teaching about, "Look at the flowers and look at the birds. at the flowers and look at the birds. at the flowers and look at the birds. Jesus takes care of all of those things. Jesus takes care of all of those things. Jesus takes care of all of those things. Don't worry." He ends with, Don't worry." He ends with, Don't worry." He ends with, "But seek first the kingdom of God and "But seek first the kingdom of God and "But seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto all these things will be added unto all these things will be added unto you."

Greed and worry Greed and worry greed and anxiety is the exact same greed and anxiety is the exact same greed and anxiety is the exact same teaching in Jesus' mind. teaching in Jesus' mind. teaching in Jesus' mind. Um in in uh in connection to this man Um in in uh in connection to this man Um in in uh in connection to this man who asked the question, "How come?" who asked the question, "How come?" who asked the question, "How come?" Because greed and worry produce the same Because greed and worry produce the same Because greed and worry produce the same effect on our lives. effect on our lives. effect on our lives. When we are greedy, we accumulate and When we are greedy, we accumulate and When we are greedy, we accumulate and keep more than we need. keep more than we need. keep more than we need. When we worry, When we worry, When we worry, we accumulate and keep more than we we accumulate and keep more than we we accumulate and keep more than we need. need. need. And yet in our world, we And yet in our world, we And yet in our world, we we hate greed and we call worry wise. we hate greed and we call worry wise. we hate greed and we call worry wise. And and Jesus says there's And and Jesus says there's And and Jesus says there's there's uh there's there's a better way. there's uh there's there's a better way. there's uh there's there's a better way. Don't do either. Um seek first the Don't do either. Um seek first the Don't do either. Um seek first the kingdom of God. He's going to take care kingdom of God. He's going to take care kingdom of God. He's going to take care of all of your needs. You keep your of all of your needs. You keep your of all of your needs. You keep your focus there. And uh I think the way we focus there. And uh I think the way we focus there. And uh I think the way we overcome greed is we start giving away overcome greed is we start giving away overcome greed is we start giving away what we don't need and see the joy that what we don't need and see the joy that what we don't need and see the joy that comes from it. How do we overcome worry? comes from it. How do we overcome worry? comes from it. How do we overcome worry? We we give away what we don't need and We we give away what we don't need and We we give away what we don't need and we see that God is going to provide and we see that God is going to provide and we see that God is going to provide and he's going to take care of us over and he's going to take care of us over and he's going to take care of us over and over and that there's far more security over and that there's far more security over and that there's far more security found found found living in the center of God's will than living in the center of God's will than living in the center of God's will than there ever will be accumulating zeros in there ever will be accumulating zeros in there ever will be accumulating zeros in a bank account or clutter in a home.

a bank account or clutter in a home. a bank account or clutter in a home. Need and want, need and want, need and Need and want, need and want, need and Need and want, need and want, need and want. Those lines get blurred all the want. Those lines get blurred all the want. Those lines get blurred all the time. I mean you I go back to when I was time. I mean you I go back to when I was time. I mean you I go back to when I was in college. in college. in college. Everything fit into 600 square feet, 300 Everything fit into 600 square feet, 300 Everything fit into 600 square feet, 300 square feet, whatever it was at the square feet, whatever it was at the square feet, whatever it was at the time, you know, the dorm room I was time, you know, the dorm room I was time, you know, the dorm room I was living in, the small apartment I had. living in, the small apartment I had. living in, the small apartment I had. And I had everything I needed. And I had everything I needed. And I had everything I needed. And now I've got 3,000 square feet. It's And now I've got 3,000 square feet. It's And now I've got 3,000 square feet. It's not a lot. A lot of people have more, not a lot. A lot of people have more, not a lot. A lot of people have more, but it's plenty for the two of us. Our but it's plenty for the two of us. Our but it's plenty for the two of us. Our kids are grown. kids are grown. kids are grown. And you know, I have And you know, I have And you know, I have I don't know, 10x, 100x what I had when I don't know, 10x, 100x what I had when I don't know, 10x, 100x what I had when I was in college. What How How do you I was in college. What How How do you I was in college. What How How do you define define define need and want? Because I can see someone need and want? Because I can see someone need and want? Because I can see someone pushing back and going, "Yeah, but I pushing back and going, "Yeah, but I pushing back and going, "Yeah, but I need all this stuff." I think we've need all this stuff." I think we've need all this stuff." I think we've already touched on that, right? I need I already touched on that, right? I need I already touched on that, right? I need I need all that stuff. Joshua, where's the need all that stuff. Joshua, where's the need all that stuff. Joshua, where's the line in your mind? How do you How do you line in your mind? How do you How do you line in your mind? How do you How do you define that for yourself and how would define that for yourself and how would define that for yourself and how would you recommend you recommend you recommend we define that line? we define that line? we define that line? Well, the spiritual answer is I think Well, the spiritual answer is I think Well, the spiritual answer is I think that we are constantly trying to walk in that we are constantly trying to walk in that we are constantly trying to walk in the spirit of God. We are constantly the spirit of God. We are constantly the spirit of God. We are constantly asking God. We are asking God. We are asking God. We are we are we are we are we are looking what Jesus said about we are looking what Jesus said about we are looking what Jesus said about money and possessions and trying to see money and possessions and trying to see money and possessions and trying to see if we're if we're walking in obedience if we're if we're walking in obedience if we're if we're walking in obedience there.

there. there. In very practical ways, Carrie, In very practical ways, Carrie, In very practical ways, Carrie, the best way to learn what I want and the best way to learn what I want and the best way to learn what I want and what I need what I need what I need is to run is to run is to run um experiments um experiments um experiments in my life. in my life. in my life. Uh there's this really Uh there's this really Uh there's this really well-known well-known well-known clothing experiment. I I encourage clothing experiment. I I encourage clothing experiment. I I encourage everybody to do it. It's called project everybody to do it. It's called project everybody to do it. It's called project 333. 333. 333. And the goal is you commit to wearing And the goal is you commit to wearing And the goal is you commit to wearing just 33 articles of clothing for 3 just 33 articles of clothing for 3 just 33 articles of clothing for 3 months. months. months. It doesn't count underwear and doesn't It doesn't count underwear and doesn't It doesn't count underwear and doesn't count workout clothes so but but coats count workout clothes so but but coats count workout clothes so but but coats and shoes and jewelry and outerwear and shoes and jewelry and outerwear and shoes and jewelry and outerwear like just 33 things for 3 months. And at like just 33 things for 3 months. And at like just 33 things for 3 months. And at first you hear it and you're like Well, first you hear it and you're like Well, first you hear it and you're like Well, some people are like I don't even have some people are like I don't even have some people are like I don't even have that many but most people are like I that many but most people are like I that many but most people are like I don't know how I'd even go about doing don't know how I'd even go about doing don't know how I'd even go about doing that. Until you until you do it and you that. Until you until you do it and you that. Until you until you do it and you set it up and it's it's not hey get rid set it up and it's it's not hey get rid set it up and it's it's not hey get rid of everything else and you know burn it of everything else and you know burn it of everything else and you know burn it in the backyard or take it all to in the backyard or take it all to in the backyard or take it all to Goodwill. It's just move it to the side.

Goodwill. It's just move it to the side. Goodwill. It's just move it to the side. Just try 33 things for 3 months and you Just try 33 things for 3 months and you Just try 33 things for 3 months and you know what happened for in my life? know what happened for in my life? know what happened for in my life? I discovered that I loved having just 33 I discovered that I loved having just 33 I discovered that I loved having just 33 things that it was enough for me that things that it was enough for me that things that it was enough for me that everything I owned I loved and I felt everything I owned I loved and I felt everything I owned I loved and I felt good wearing. And I discovered that I good wearing. And I discovered that I good wearing. And I discovered that I don't need 120 things. I don't need 60 don't need 120 things. I don't need 60 don't need 120 things. I don't need 60 things. 35 things is enough for me. things. 35 things is enough for me. things. 35 things is enough for me. And you can try this across And you can try this across And you can try this across like any number you could like any number you could like any number you could cut down the number of towels in your cut down the number of towels in your cut down the number of towels in your home you know to to to two per person or home you know to to to two per person or home you know to to to two per person or you could try one coffee mug for a month you could try one coffee mug for a month you could try one coffee mug for a month or just a few pieces of Tupperware and or just a few pieces of Tupperware and or just a few pieces of Tupperware and and you can limit yourself to and you can limit yourself to and you can limit yourself to you know 1 hour on email a day or half you know 1 hour on email a day or half you know 1 hour on email a day or half hour of email a day and just like run hour of email a day and just like run hour of email a day and just like run these little no harm experiments. You these little no harm experiments. You these little no harm experiments. You only win there's only lessons to be only win there's only lessons to be only win there's only lessons to be learned you discover you know what it learned you discover you know what it learned you discover you know what it worked pretty good except I needed one worked pretty good except I needed one worked pretty good except I needed one extra suit for that one meeting or you extra suit for that one meeting or you extra suit for that one meeting or you know what that worked pretty good except know what that worked pretty good except know what that worked pretty good except the one time I needed the card or run to the one time I needed the card or run to the one time I needed the card or run to the thing and my wife had it and the thing and my wife had it and the thing and my wife had it and so you know we make we make adjustments so you know we make we make adjustments so you know we make we make adjustments but I think that is really the best way but I think that is really the best way but I think that is really the best way to discover it.

to discover it. to discover it. There are some things that I think you There are some things that I think you There are some things that I think you use this metaphor that uh use this metaphor that uh use this metaphor that uh feel like they're going to be hard, but feel like they're going to be hard, but feel like they're going to be hard, but they're actually easy. And there are they're actually easy. And there are they're actually easy. And there are things that seem easy things that seem easy things that seem easy that actually lead to a lot more that actually lead to a lot more that actually lead to a lot more hardship. What What are you noticing hardship. What What are you noticing hardship. What What are you noticing about our lives, our spirituality that about our lives, our spirituality that about our lives, our spirituality that seems hard, but actually results in seems hard, but actually results in seems hard, but actually results in easy, or seems easy, but actually easy, or seems easy, but actually easy, or seems easy, but actually results in hard? So, So, I was introduced to minimalism by um by I was introduced to minimalism by um by I was introduced to minimalism by um by my neighbor. my neighbor. my neighbor. Uh we went through our home. Uh we went through our home. Uh we went through our home. Took us about 9 months. We got rid of 60 Took us about 9 months. We got rid of 60 Took us about 9 months. We got rid of 60 70% of our things. 70% of our things. 70% of our things. Uh every time I'm noticing my life get Uh every time I'm noticing my life get Uh every time I'm noticing my life get better because I owned less stuff, I was better because I owned less stuff, I was better because I owned less stuff, I was writing about it on my website, on writing about it on my website, on writing about it on my website, on becoming minimalist. So, like very becoming minimalist. So, like very becoming minimalist. So, like very practical. It's easier to clean. It's practical. It's easier to clean. It's practical. It's easier to clean. It's easier to find stuff. It's easier to do easier to find stuff. It's easier to do easier to find stuff. It's easier to do laundry. I have more money. I can be in laundry. I have more money. I can be in laundry. I have more money. I can be in the backyard with my son. Uh I'm the backyard with my son. Uh I'm the backyard with my son. Uh I'm comparing myself less with other people.

comparing myself less with other people. comparing myself less with other people. If I'm going to own less, I can own If I'm going to own less, I can own If I'm going to own less, I can own higher quality things. There's more higher quality things. There's more higher quality things. There's more gratitude and generosity and content gratitude and generosity and content gratitude and generosity and content like all these um freedom like all these like all these um freedom like all these like all these um freedom like all these amazing life-giving benefits. amazing life-giving benefits. amazing life-giving benefits. At one point, I turned to Kim. I don't At one point, I turned to Kim. I don't At one point, I turned to Kim. I don't know, we're decluttering our third know, we're decluttering our third know, we're decluttering our third bathroom that we had back then. And I bathroom that we had back then. And I bathroom that we had back then. And I said, "Kim, where Where has this been my said, "Kim, where Where has this been my said, "Kim, where Where has this been my entire life? Like how come I was in my entire life? Like how come I was in my entire life? Like how come I was in my 30s before someone introduced me to 30s before someone introduced me to 30s before someone introduced me to minimalism? Where's this been?" minimalism? Where's this been?" minimalism? Where's this been?" And I caught myself like halfway through And I caught myself like halfway through And I caught myself like halfway through the conversation because it occurred to the conversation because it occurred to the conversation because it occurred to me that my neighbor wasn't the first me that my neighbor wasn't the first me that my neighbor wasn't the first person to tell me about minimalism. Like person to tell me about minimalism. Like person to tell me about minimalism. Like Jesus was saying the exact same thing Jesus was saying the exact same thing Jesus was saying the exact same thing 2,000 years ago. Life is not found in 2,000 years ago. Life is not found in 2,000 years ago. Life is not found in the abundance of possessions. Uh sell the abundance of possessions. Uh sell the abundance of possessions. Uh sell your possessions and give to the poor your possessions and give to the poor your possessions and give to the poor and come follow me. and come follow me. and come follow me. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And be on guard against all kinds of >> And be on guard against all kinds of >> And be on guard against all kinds of greed. And greed. And greed. And yet for some reason, Carrie, yet for some reason, Carrie, yet for some reason, Carrie, I read everything Jesus said about I read everything Jesus said about I read everything Jesus said about giving away my money, giving away my giving away my money, giving away my giving away my money, giving away my possessions, thinking to myself, possessions, thinking to myself, possessions, thinking to myself, "Man, that is a pretty miserable way to "Man, that is a pretty miserable way to "Man, that is a pretty miserable way to live. I don't know if Jesus is testing live. I don't know if Jesus is testing live. I don't know if Jesus is testing my faith. I don't know if this is just my faith. I don't know if this is just my faith. I don't know if this is just about helping the poor. Like I could see about helping the poor. Like I could see about helping the poor. Like I could see how they would benefit, but man, that's how they would benefit, but man, that's how they would benefit, but man, that's going to be a crummy way to live my going to be a crummy way to live my going to be a crummy way to live my life."

life." life." Until I started actually doing it and Until I started actually doing it and Until I started actually doing it and actually living it out. actually living it out. actually living it out. And I began discovering that this isn't And I began discovering that this isn't And I began discovering that this isn't a harder, worse way to live. It's a harder, worse way to live. It's a harder, worse way to live. It's better. It's more fulfilling. It's more better. It's more fulfilling. It's more better. It's more fulfilling. It's more efficient. It's more meaningful. It's efficient. It's more meaningful. It's efficient. It's more meaningful. It's more fruitful. more fruitful. more fruitful. Um and so what I thought would what I Um and so what I thought would what I Um and so what I thought would what I had thought for 35 years was a really had thought for 35 years was a really had thought for 35 years was a really hard teaching. And that's not to say hard teaching. And that's not to say hard teaching. And that's not to say that there aren't struggles and it's not that there aren't struggles and it's not that there aren't struggles and it's not easy. But once I started actually easy. But once I started actually easy. But once I started actually putting into practice what Jesus called putting into practice what Jesus called putting into practice what Jesus called me to, uh I could begin to see why he me to, uh I could begin to see why he me to, uh I could begin to see why he called me to it. Which is what we do called me to it. Which is what we do called me to it. Which is what we do with everything else that Jesus said, with everything else that Jesus said, with everything else that Jesus said, right? Like, don't be sexually immoral. right? Like, don't be sexually immoral. right? Like, don't be sexually immoral. How come? Because it is a crummy way to How come? Because it is a crummy way to How come? Because it is a crummy way to live in the long run. And don't gossip live in the long run. And don't gossip live in the long run. And don't gossip and don't lie and don't envy because all and don't lie and don't envy because all and don't lie and don't envy because all those things are crummy ways to live. Uh those things are crummy ways to live. Uh those things are crummy ways to live. Uh and yet for some reason, this whole and yet for some reason, this whole and yet for some reason, this whole teaching about money and possessions, I teaching about money and possessions, I teaching about money and possessions, I uh couldn't quite oversee that until uh couldn't quite oversee that until uh couldn't quite oversee that until until I started doing it. until I started doing it. until I started doing it. Now, you were a pastor for 15 years. Now, you were a pastor for 15 years. Now, you were a pastor for 15 years. What Why do you think more church What Why do you think more church What Why do you think more church leaders or more churches leaders or more churches leaders or more churches don't grasp this?

don't grasp this? don't grasp this? Cuz I mean, I don't know a whole lot of Cuz I mean, I don't know a whole lot of Cuz I mean, I don't know a whole lot of Christians who are actually Christians who are actually Christians who are actually decluttering, let alone selling their decluttering, let alone selling their decluttering, let alone selling their possessions and giving to the poor. possessions and giving to the poor. possessions and giving to the poor. There's not a lot. There's not a lot. There's not a lot. Yeah. Um I think people I think churches talk I think people I think churches talk about about about consumerism. consumerism. consumerism. They talk about materialism. They talk about materialism. They talk about materialism. But it tends to be usually a pretty But it tends to be usually a pretty But it tends to be usually a pretty negative slant on why you shouldn't do negative slant on why you shouldn't do negative slant on why you shouldn't do all of those things. I just I just all of those things. I just I just all of those things. I just I just listened to a sermon um just this week listened to a sermon um just this week listened to a sermon um just this week from a guy who was uh preaching on from a guy who was uh preaching on from a guy who was uh preaching on contentment and I'm like, this is right contentment and I'm like, this is right contentment and I'm like, this is right up my alley and I want to hear all about up my alley and I want to hear all about up my alley and I want to hear all about this and like the first 25 minutes of this and like the first 25 minutes of this and like the first 25 minutes of his sermon were all about the bad things his sermon were all about the bad things his sermon were all about the bad things that happen when we're not content. that happen when we're not content. that happen when we're not content. Which are all true, like we weary and we Which are all true, like we weary and we Which are all true, like we weary and we chase the like that's all true. But I chase the like that's all true. But I chase the like that's all true. But I don't know if I ever heard a pastor don't know if I ever heard a pastor don't know if I ever heard a pastor get on stage and say, get on stage and say, get on stage and say, "Let me tell you about all the good "Let me tell you about all the good "Let me tell you about all the good things that happen things that happen things that happen when you actually do these things."

when you actually do these things." when you actually do these things." And I don't know if it's um because they And I don't know if it's um because they And I don't know if it's um because they they haven't done it. I I don't know if they haven't done it. I I don't know if they haven't done it. I I don't know if it's because they haven't noticed it or it's because they haven't noticed it or it's because they haven't noticed it or they haven't thought to to take that they haven't thought to to take that they haven't thought to to take that approach. But uh I think there's just a approach. But uh I think there's just a approach. But uh I think there's just a a more invitational way to have this a more invitational way to have this a more invitational way to have this conversation which conversation which conversation which was really where uncluttered faith came was really where uncluttered faith came was really where uncluttered faith came from. I'm like, there's a there's a from. I'm like, there's a there's a from. I'm like, there's a there's a promise on promise on promise on on the other side of all of Jesus' on the other side of all of Jesus' on the other side of all of Jesus' teachings and it's not just warnings teachings and it's not just warnings teachings and it's not just warnings about woe to you who are rich. Like about woe to you who are rich. Like about woe to you who are rich. Like there's there's there's there's promise on the other side of there's promise on the other side of there's promise on the other side of living this out. And so, what are those living this out. And so, what are those living this out. And so, what are those good things? What are those What are good things? What are those What are good things? What are those What are those promises that we can discover and those promises that we can discover and those promises that we can discover and we can begin to we can begin to walk in we can begin to we can begin to walk in we can begin to we can begin to walk in and um certainly it gets into generosity and um certainly it gets into generosity and um certainly it gets into generosity and money and and money and and money and uh some pastors don't like having that uh some pastors don't like having that uh some pastors don't like having that conversation and uh feel like it's a conversation and uh feel like it's a conversation and uh feel like it's a difficult one and I difficult one and I difficult one and I I just think, man, you you are doing I just think, man, you you are doing I just think, man, you you are doing your people a favor when you call them your people a favor when you call them your people a favor when you call them to generosity. Like, you are calling to generosity. Like, you are calling to generosity. Like, you are calling them to to live a life of greater joy them to to live a life of greater joy them to to live a life of greater joy and greater meaning and fulfillment by and greater meaning and fulfillment by and greater meaning and fulfillment by giving their money to the kingdom of God giving their money to the kingdom of God giving their money to the kingdom of God where moth and rust cannot destroy their where moth and rust cannot destroy their where moth and rust cannot destroy their treasure forever. And so, don't ever treasure forever. And so, don't ever treasure forever. And so, don't ever apologize for speaking about generosity.

apologize for speaking about generosity. apologize for speaking about generosity. People People want to be generous. They People People want to be generous. They People People want to be generous. They want to do it better. want to do it better. want to do it better. People want to be a People want to be a People want to be a be part of a church that is generous. be part of a church that is generous. be part of a church that is generous. And so, I think we need to be calling And so, I think we need to be calling And so, I think we need to be calling people to it, not people to it, not people to it, not not from the negative side of the coin, not from the negative side of the coin, not from the negative side of the coin, but but from the positive side of it. but but from the positive side of it. but but from the positive side of it. Well, and sometimes we're not content. Well, and sometimes we're not content. Well, and sometimes we're not content. It's really hard to preach on It's really hard to preach on It's really hard to preach on contentment when you're not content. I contentment when you're not content. I contentment when you're not content. I remember hearing a message remember hearing a message remember hearing a message 20 years ago. 20 years ago. 20 years ago. And it was a real challenge. And the And it was a real challenge. And the And it was a real challenge. And the preacher said, "If God called you to do preacher said, "If God called you to do preacher said, "If God called you to do something today, let's say he called you something today, let's say he called you something today, let's say he called you to be a missionary, you got to pack up to be a missionary, you got to pack up to be a missionary, you got to pack up and go. Could you do it?" And it was a and go. Could you do it?" And it was a and go. Could you do it?" And it was a sermon on money. sermon on money. sermon on money. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, "No. Like, "No. Like, "No. Like, the electricity bill is due on Friday. the electricity bill is due on Friday. the electricity bill is due on Friday. Like, I got and I got no margin." That Like, I got and I got no margin." That Like, I got and I got no margin." That was 20 years ago. We we have worked hard was 20 years ago. We we have worked hard was 20 years ago. We we have worked hard to put some margin into our lives to put some margin into our lives to put some margin into our lives financially over the last 20 years. financially over the last 20 years. financially over the last 20 years. And it's so liberating to think if we And it's so liberating to think if we And it's so liberating to think if we got a radical got a radical got a radical call like that out of the blue, that we call like that out of the blue, that we call like that out of the blue, that we could say, "Yeah, we can probably do could say, "Yeah, we can probably do could say, "Yeah, we can probably do that. We can go we can go do that."

that. We can go we can go do that." that. We can go we can go do that." What are you call call Jesus the What are you call call Jesus the What are you call call Jesus the original original original um minimalist. And I think that's fair um minimalist. And I think that's fair um minimalist. And I think that's fair game. game. game. What are some of the benefits of margin? What are some of the benefits of margin? What are some of the benefits of margin? I mean, if you want to if you're going I mean, if you want to if you're going I mean, if you want to if you're going to preach that sermon, to preach that sermon, to preach that sermon, um I ever since I burned out 20 years um I ever since I burned out 20 years um I ever since I burned out 20 years ago, ago, ago, margin has become such a big driver in margin has become such a big driver in margin has become such a big driver in my life and of my life. I want time my life and of my life. I want time my life and of my life. I want time margin. I want rest margin. I want rest margin. I want rest that actually I'm in surplus on rest, that actually I'm in surplus on rest, that actually I'm in surplus on rest, right? Yeah, I do some time zones and right? Yeah, I do some time zones and right? Yeah, I do some time zones and travel and I'm tired. But then I catch travel and I'm tired. But then I catch travel and I'm tired. But then I catch up right away. You know, financial up right away. You know, financial up right away. You know, financial margin, money on the side. That was a margin, money on the side. That was a margin, money on the side. That was a big stressor early in big stressor early in big stressor early in our marriage and we learned even before our marriage and we learned even before our marriage and we learned even before I did this and other things that okay, I did this and other things that okay, I did this and other things that okay, we got to like you did. We got to start we got to like you did. We got to start we got to like you did. We got to start saving. We got to start putting money saving. We got to start putting money saving. We got to start putting money aside. And of course, that compounds aside. And of course, that compounds aside. And of course, that compounds over the years. What are What are some over the years. What are What are some over the years. What are What are some of the benefits of margin for people who of the benefits of margin for people who of the benefits of margin for people who are living marginless existences? Uh it's very fun now. Uh it's very fun now. You're uh you're totally right about I You're uh you're totally right about I You're uh you're totally right about I had a good friend who um had a good friend who um had a good friend who um wanted to be a missionary but had a wanted to be a missionary but had a wanted to be a missionary but had a bunch of debt. Um bunch of debt. Um bunch of debt. Um I don't know what God's call was on his I don't know what God's call was on his I don't know what God's call was on his life, so I shouldn't speak to it. All I life, so I shouldn't speak to it. All I life, so I shouldn't speak to it. All I know is he just started a company and know is he just started a company and know is he just started a company and started making a lot of money and started making a lot of money and started making a lot of money and um found it harder and harder to to go um found it harder and harder to to go um found it harder and harder to to go on the mission field. Not because he was on the mission field. Not because he was on the mission field. Not because he was in debt, but because he was doing so in debt, but because he was doing so in debt, but because he was doing so well financially.

well financially. well financially. And so I really think it can go both And so I really think it can go both And so I really think it can go both ways ways ways when we don't have margin, but also when when we don't have margin, but also when when we don't have margin, but also when we have a lot. Uh it can also be we have a lot. Uh it can also be we have a lot. Uh it can also be difficult to to give up everything. difficult to to give up everything. difficult to to give up everything. That's the story of the rich young That's the story of the rich young That's the story of the rich young ruler, right? Like ruler, right? Like ruler, right? Like give up what you have and come follow me give up what you have and come follow me give up what you have and come follow me and he leaves sad because he had so and he leaves sad because he had so and he leaves sad because he had so much. Um much. Um much. Um So it's, you know, living a a generous So it's, you know, living a a generous So it's, you know, living a a generous life, living a a giving intentional life life, living a a giving intentional life life, living a a giving intentional life isn't always about money. Um sometimes isn't always about money. Um sometimes isn't always about money. Um sometimes it can be harder I think when we have it can be harder I think when we have it can be harder I think when we have much, which much, which much, which man, look at the parable of the four man, look at the parable of the four man, look at the parable of the four soils. We should get into that at some soils. We should get into that at some soils. We should get into that at some point um about how those things can can point um about how those things can can point um about how those things can can keep us from it. Um But your keep us from it. Um But your keep us from it. Um But your But your other point is is so true that But your other point is is so true that But your other point is is so true that Warren Buffett um Warren Buffett um Warren Buffett um I think I got the quote attribution I think I got the quote attribution I think I got the quote attribution right uh said right uh said right uh said the difference between successful people the difference between successful people the difference between successful people and really successful people and really successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no is that really successful people say no is that really successful people say no to almost everything.

to almost everything. to almost everything. And we can we can see this in And we can we can see this in And we can we can see this in possessions. We can see this in what we possessions. We can see this in what we possessions. We can see this in what we spend our money on and what we buy. spend our money on and what we buy. spend our money on and what we buy. That just imagine how much bandwidth That just imagine how much bandwidth That just imagine how much bandwidth would be freed up in your life would be freed up in your life would be freed up in your life if you not just owned less stuff but if you not just owned less stuff but if you not just owned less stuff but wanted less stuff. I just imagine what wanted less stuff. I just imagine what wanted less stuff. I just imagine what my life would look like if I didn't want my life would look like if I didn't want my life would look like if I didn't want more things all of the time and I could more things all of the time and I could more things all of the time and I could spend my energy pursuing other passions spend my energy pursuing other passions spend my energy pursuing other passions and and other pursuits. and and other pursuits. and and other pursuits. Um and then along the way we we free up Um and then along the way we we free up Um and then along the way we we free up money and we free up time. I think that money and we free up time. I think that money and we free up time. I think that we find a more intentional way of life we find a more intentional way of life we find a more intentional way of life and saying, "Hey, this is what God is and saying, "Hey, this is what God is and saying, "Hey, this is what God is calling me to do. I don't have to go do calling me to do. I don't have to go do calling me to do. I don't have to go do everything because I'm just everything because I'm just everything because I'm just chasing a bigger paycheck and chasing a bigger paycheck and chasing a bigger paycheck and and more stuff. I I can just walk and more stuff. I I can just walk and more stuff. I I can just walk squarely in the the calling that that squarely in the the calling that that squarely in the the calling that that God has placed onto my life. So, I think God has placed onto my life. So, I think God has placed onto my life. So, I think and I think that's what you find with and I think that's what you find with and I think that's what you find with Jesus, right? Like he didn't have a lot.

Jesus, right? Like he didn't have a lot. Jesus, right? Like he didn't have a lot. People were supporting him, which is People were supporting him, which is People were supporting him, which is another another another you know, just uh conversation for those you know, just uh conversation for those you know, just uh conversation for those of us who who have a lot. Like let's be of us who who have a lot. Like let's be of us who who have a lot. Like let's be giving. Like there are people relying on giving. Like there are people relying on giving. Like there are people relying on that. Jesus was replying Jesus was that. Jesus was replying Jesus was that. Jesus was replying Jesus was relying on people to give and so let's relying on people to give and so let's relying on people to give and so let's be giving and supporting his work. But be giving and supporting his work. But be giving and supporting his work. But he was he was driven and he was focused he was he was driven and he was focused he was he was driven and he was focused and he is intentional and he knew what and he is intentional and he knew what and he is intentional and he knew what he wanted to do and what God called him he wanted to do and what God called him he wanted to do and what God called him to do and everything else just kind of to do and everything else just kind of to do and everything else just kind of fades in the background once we once we fades in the background once we once we fades in the background once we once we see what that is. It gives you see what that is. It gives you see what that is. It gives you incredible focus, doesn't it? incredible focus, doesn't it? incredible focus, doesn't it? >> Yeah. And it clarifies. I can see that. >> Yeah. And it clarifies. I can see that. >> Yeah. And it clarifies. I can see that. I think it was Joanna, Susanna, and Mary I think it was Joanna, Susanna, and Mary I think it was Joanna, Susanna, and Mary who are noted in the Gospel of Luke as who are noted in the Gospel of Luke as who are noted in the Gospel of Luke as having significantly funded having significantly funded having significantly funded Jesus' ministry, wealthy women. Jesus' ministry, wealthy women. Jesus' ministry, wealthy women. Interesting. interesting. Tell us about Interesting. interesting. Tell us about Interesting. interesting. Tell us about the four soils. Yeah, and go ahead. Take the four soils. Yeah, and go ahead. Take the four soils. Yeah, and go ahead. Take this where you want. this where you want. this where you want. >> Oh, yeah. I I'd love to cuz um it's so >> Oh, yeah. I I'd love to cuz um it's so >> Oh, yeah. I I'd love to cuz um it's so important, but um important, but um important, but um I I think this is like where God calls I I think this is like where God calls I I think this is like where God calls us to to tithe, 10%. I think this is us to to tithe, 10%. I think this is us to to tithe, 10%. I think this is where God calls us to rest one day a where God calls us to rest one day a where God calls us to rest one day a week. Like it's all week. Like it's all week. Like it's all it's all like he's telling us to find it's all like he's telling us to find it's all like he's telling us to find margin, and and he's telling us, "Hey, I margin, and and he's telling us, "Hey, I margin, and and he's telling us, "Hey, I can do more I can do more with your 90% can do more I can do more with your 90% can do more I can do more with your 90% than you can do holding on to 100." And than you can do holding on to 100." And than you can do holding on to 100." And he's like, "I can do more in your life he's like, "I can do more in your life he's like, "I can do more in your life in 6 days than you can do with seven."

in 6 days than you can do with seven." in 6 days than you can do with seven." And that's certainly important for for And that's certainly important for for And that's certainly important for for pastors to to be hearing that there's, pastors to to be hearing that there's, pastors to to be hearing that there's, you know, there's always something else you know, there's always something else you know, there's always something else that we can be doing, someone else that that we can be doing, someone else that that we can be doing, someone else that we can be reaching out to, but at at we can be reaching out to, but at at we can be reaching out to, but at at some point we just have to trust that some point we just have to trust that some point we just have to trust that you know what? I don't I don't have to you know what? I don't I don't have to you know what? I don't I don't have to be working 7 days a week. God told me be working 7 days a week. God told me be working 7 days a week. God told me not to. Like there God can provide not to. Like there God can provide not to. Like there God can provide someone else to have that conversation, someone else to have that conversation, someone else to have that conversation, to to be there for that person, to run to to be there for that person, to run to to be there for that person, to run that ministry. Um so, that's an that ministry. Um so, that's an that ministry. Um so, that's an important one. But anyway, important one. But anyway, important one. But anyway, um because you brought it up and because um because you brought it up and because um because you brought it up and because it's one of I think one of the most it's one of I think one of the most it's one of I think one of the most important stories for all of us is um important stories for all of us is um important stories for all of us is um and it's the reason I left ministry, by and it's the reason I left ministry, by and it's the reason I left ministry, by the way, didn't get to it at the at the the way, didn't get to it at the at the the way, didn't get to it at the at the very beginning. very beginning. very beginning. Uh but one of the reasons I I left Uh but one of the reasons I I left Uh but one of the reasons I I left pastoring full-time to to write about pastoring full-time to to write about pastoring full-time to to write about minimalism is the the parable of the minimalism is the the parable of the minimalism is the the parable of the four soils four soils four soils uh in Luke chapter 8. It's one of the uh in Luke chapter 8. It's one of the uh in Luke chapter 8. It's one of the first parables that Jesus tells. It's first parables that Jesus tells. It's first parables that Jesus tells. It's one of the only ones that he explains. one of the only ones that he explains. one of the only ones that he explains. It's one of the longest ones that he It's one of the longest ones that he It's one of the longest ones that he gives. gives. gives. We know the story, right? The the first We know the story, right? The the first We know the story, right? The the first seed falls on the the rock and nothing seed falls on the the rock and nothing seed falls on the the rock and nothing happens. The bird picks it away. Those happens. The bird picks it away. Those happens. The bird picks it away. Those who hear the word and do nothing with who hear the word and do nothing with who hear the word and do nothing with it. The second one doesn't grow any it. The second one doesn't grow any it. The second one doesn't grow any roots. It's in shallow soil, and so when roots. It's in shallow soil, and so when roots. It's in shallow soil, and so when the troubles come and tribulations come, the troubles come and tribulations come, the troubles come and tribulations come, there's no faith and it quickly will there's no faith and it quickly will there's no faith and it quickly will just away. The third seed, as we know, just away. The third seed, as we know, just away. The third seed, as we know, grows roots, grows into a plant, but it grows roots, grows into a plant, but it grows roots, grows into a plant, but it doesn't bear any fruit because its doesn't bear any fruit because its doesn't bear any fruit because its fruitfulness is choked out by the weeds.

fruitfulness is choked out by the weeds. fruitfulness is choked out by the weeds. And then the fourth soil is fruitful, And then the fourth soil is fruitful, And then the fourth soil is fruitful, 30, 60, 100-fold. 30, 60, 100-fold. 30, 60, 100-fold. Again, one of the only parables that Again, one of the only parables that Again, one of the only parables that Jesus explains. Jesus explains. Jesus explains. In Luke chapter 8 verse 14, he explains In Luke chapter 8 verse 14, he explains In Luke chapter 8 verse 14, he explains exactly what weeds exactly what weeds exactly what weeds choke out the fruitfulness of our faith. choke out the fruitfulness of our faith. choke out the fruitfulness of our faith. It is life's worries, It is life's worries, It is life's worries, riches, and pleasures. riches, and pleasures. riches, and pleasures. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I don't know if there is a better way I don't know if there is a better way I don't know if there is a better way to explain the American, probably the to explain the American, probably the to explain the American, probably the Canadian, most developed nations' Canadian, most developed nations' Canadian, most developed nations' churches. Like we we've accepted the churches. Like we we've accepted the churches. Like we we've accepted the word, we've grown in faith, we have more word, we've grown in faith, we have more word, we've grown in faith, we have more resources to grow in faith than we've resources to grow in faith than we've resources to grow in faith than we've ever had before. ever had before. ever had before. And yet, I don't know if anyone would And yet, I don't know if anyone would And yet, I don't know if anyone would look at the American church and think look at the American church and think look at the American church and think that we are as fruitful as we can that we are as fruitful as we can that we are as fruitful as we can possibly be. Almost everything that possibly be. Almost everything that possibly be. Almost everything that makes makes makes our nation our nation, the pursuit of our nation our nation, the pursuit of our nation our nation, the pursuit of money and riches and pleasures and all money and riches and pleasures and all money and riches and pleasures and all the worries that come with them are the the worries that come with them are the the worries that come with them are the very thing that is choking out our very thing that is choking out our very thing that is choking out our fruitfulness. And I fruitfulness. And I fruitfulness. And I I used to read that passage and thank I used to read that passage and thank I used to read that passage and thank God that I was the fourth soil.

God that I was the fourth soil. God that I was the fourth soil. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And you know, and then and then I >> And you know, and then and then I >> And you know, and then and then I discovered minimalism and started discovered minimalism and started discovered minimalism and started intentionally owning less and and intentionally owning less and and intentionally owning less and and removing some of those weeds from my removing some of those weeds from my removing some of those weeds from my life that were competing for my time and life that were competing for my time and life that were competing for my time and energy and just realized that there's energy and just realized that there's energy and just realized that there's far more fruitfulness available to us far more fruitfulness available to us far more fruitfulness available to us and and and of course the of course the of course the you know, the the greatest news of that you know, the the greatest news of that you know, the the greatest news of that whole story is that the whole story is that the whole story is that the the biggest weeds grow in the most the biggest weeds grow in the most the biggest weeds grow in the most fertile soil and it's just a matter of fertile soil and it's just a matter of fertile soil and it's just a matter of removing the weeds, and and the the removing the weeds, and and the the removing the weeds, and and the the plants and the fruits can really take plants and the fruits can really take plants and the fruits can really take off, and off, and off, and I think that's what uncluttered faith is I think that's what uncluttered faith is I think that's what uncluttered faith is all about for us as an individual as all about for us as an individual as all about for us as an individual as individuals, and for us as a church, individuals, and for us as a church, individuals, and for us as a church, that we would unleash greater that we would unleash greater that we would unleash greater fruitfulness for the kingdom and for his fruitfulness for the kingdom and for his fruitfulness for the kingdom and for his glory. glory. glory. How has that fruitfulness showed up in How has that fruitfulness showed up in How has that fruitfulness showed up in your own life, Joshua? I'm able to do what what I do. I'm able to do what what I do. Um I'm able to Um I'm able to Um I'm able to uh uh uh run this run this business, um lead two run this run this business, um lead two run this run this business, um lead two small groups, volunteer at church. Like, small groups, volunteer at church. Like, small groups, volunteer at church. Like, I have time freed up to to be with I have time freed up to to be with I have time freed up to to be with people and to serve and to volunteer in people and to serve and to volunteer in people and to serve and to volunteer in my in my giftedness because I don't have my in my giftedness because I don't have my in my giftedness because I don't have to be constantly trying to make more to be constantly trying to make more to be constantly trying to make more money or or do another thing. Uh we've money or or do another thing. Uh we've money or or do another thing. Uh we've become far more generous than we've ever become far more generous than we've ever become far more generous than we've ever been before in our life, not just in the been before in our life, not just in the been before in our life, not just in the amount of money, but in the in the amount of money, but in the in the amount of money, but in the in the percent percent of money.

percent percent of money. percent percent of money. Best example of this is uh 10 years ago, Best example of this is uh 10 years ago, Best example of this is uh 10 years ago, I got my first book deal. I got my first book deal. I got my first book deal. Um uh The More of Less was the first Um uh The More of Less was the first Um uh The More of Less was the first book that I wrote 10 years 10 years ago. book that I wrote 10 years 10 years ago. book that I wrote 10 years 10 years ago. I'd been blogging about minimalism for I'd been blogging about minimalism for I'd been blogging about minimalism for about 8 years. about 8 years. about 8 years. Uh got in contact through a number of Uh got in contact through a number of Uh got in contact through a number of conversations with an agent. Again, conversations with an agent. Again, conversations with an agent. Again, nothing I was even hunting for, but a nothing I was even hunting for, but a nothing I was even hunting for, but a conversation and a conversation led me conversation and a conversation led me conversation and a conversation led me to a a conversation, and to a a conversation, and to a a conversation, and so we put together the book proposal for so we put together the book proposal for so we put together the book proposal for The More of Less, sent it to 10 The More of Less, sent it to 10 The More of Less, sent it to 10 publishers. publishers. publishers. Nine publishers offered um Nine publishers offered um Nine publishers offered um offered to to publish the book, and Wow. offered to to publish the book, and Wow. offered to to publish the book, and Wow. I asked my agent. I said, "Well, what do I asked my agent. I said, "Well, what do I asked my agent. I said, "Well, what do we do now?" And he said, "Well, now you we do now?" And he said, "Well, now you we do now?" And he said, "Well, now you just bid them against each other, and just bid them against each other, and just bid them against each other, and see who aligns with you and offers you see who aligns with you and offers you see who aligns with you and offers you the most." the most." the most." And I joke that we learned pretty early And I joke that we learned pretty early And I joke that we learned pretty early that I was going to get paid a lot of that I was going to get paid a lot of that I was going to get paid a lot of money to write a book about how buying money to write a book about how buying money to write a book about how buying things won't make you happy. things won't make you happy. things won't make you happy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And >> And >> And And and so we we had to decide like what And and so we we had to decide like what And and so we we had to decide like what like we were like we were like we were our our our you know, we're making five or six you know, we're making five or six you know, we're making five or six thousand dollars a month. It wasn't thousand dollars a month. It wasn't thousand dollars a month. It wasn't enough. It wasn't a much. I mean it's enough. It wasn't a much. I mean it's enough. It wasn't a much. I mean it's enough but not a lot. But we had to enough but not a lot. But we had to enough but not a lot. But we had to decide like what are we going to do with decide like what are we going to do with decide like what are we going to do with this income that's about about to come this income that's about about to come this income that's about about to come in and in and in and we going to buy a bigger screen we going to buy a bigger screen we going to buy a bigger screen television or nicer furniture, upgrade television or nicer furniture, upgrade television or nicer furniture, upgrade the house and the house and the house and it was like no, we we believe everything it was like no, we we believe everything it was like no, we we believe everything that we that we say and so we started a that we that we say and so we started a that we that we say and so we started a non-profit called started a non-profit non-profit called started a non-profit non-profit called started a non-profit called The Hope Effect. Now to celebrate called The Hope Effect. Now to celebrate called The Hope Effect. Now to celebrate its 10-year anniversary, we're changing its 10-year anniversary, we're changing its 10-year anniversary, we're changing the way the world cares for orphans by

the way the world cares for orphans by the way the world cares for orphans by getting children out of orphanages and getting children out of orphanages and getting children out of orphanages and into family-style care in developing into family-style care in developing into family-style care in developing nations where orphanages are are still nations where orphanages are are still nations where orphanages are are still used and it is something that we've been used and it is something that we've been used and it is something that we've been able to change hundreds, thousands of able to change hundreds, thousands of able to change hundreds, thousands of lives. And I never would have been able lives. And I never would have been able lives. And I never would have been able to do it if that was just living in the to do it if that was just living in the to do it if that was just living in the bigger house that I had been bigger house that I had been bigger house that I had been buying all the same stuff that I had buying all the same stuff that I had buying all the same stuff that I had been. The more money came in, the more been. The more money came in, the more been. The more money came in, the more money came out. And so I think that's money came out. And so I think that's money came out. And so I think that's just a very practical example of how just a very practical example of how just a very practical example of how owning less intentionally owning less intentionally owning less intentionally allowed us to bear more fruit for the allowed us to bear more fruit for the allowed us to bear more fruit for the kingdom. I imagine if you hired a business coach, I imagine if you hired a business coach, the first thing that business coach the first thing that business coach the first thing that business coach would do was tell you how to scale would do was tell you how to scale would do was tell you how to scale becoming minimalist and grow your becoming minimalist and grow your becoming minimalist and grow your empire. And you could have some merch empire. And you could have some merch empire. And you could have some merch and you could start another podcast or and you could start another podcast or and you could start another podcast or start a podcast network, etc. How do you start a podcast network, etc. How do you start a podcast network, etc. How do you determine where to draw the line determine where to draw the line determine where to draw the line in your company/ministry?

in your company/ministry? in your company/ministry? How do you decide How do you decide How do you decide that enough is enough? that enough is enough? that enough is enough? I can tell you how I want to decide. And I can tell you how I want to decide. And I can tell you how I want to decide. And I I think I I think I hold pretty true I I think I I think I hold pretty true I I think I I think I hold pretty true to it, but to it, but to it, but you know, you know, you know, um Carry, my Carry, my I have three goals in my life. Uh number I have three goals in my life. Uh number I have three goals in my life. Uh number one, I want to follow God as best I one, I want to follow God as best I one, I want to follow God as best I possibly can. Number two, I want to love possibly can. Number two, I want to love possibly can. Number two, I want to love the people in my life as best I possibly the people in my life as best I possibly the people in my life as best I possibly can. I want to be a faithful husband, can. I want to be a faithful husband, can. I want to be a faithful husband, intentional father. I want to love the intentional father. I want to love the intentional father. I want to love the people that God has brought into my people that God has brought into my people that God has brought into my life. life. life. And number three, I want to bring about And number three, I want to bring about And number three, I want to bring about the greatest good for the greatest the greatest good for the greatest the greatest good for the greatest number of people with the one life that number of people with the one life that number of people with the one life that I have to live uh with the gifts that I have to live uh with the gifts that I have to live uh with the gifts that God has given me and the talents and the God has given me and the talents and the God has given me and the talents and the experiences and the story that God has experiences and the story that God has experiences and the story that God has given me. given me. given me. And so, when I approach work, And so, when I approach work, And so, when I approach work, uh my uh my uh my filter, as much as I possibly can stay filter, as much as I possibly can stay filter, as much as I possibly can stay true to this, is never true to this, is never true to this, is never what brings in more money, how can I what brings in more money, how can I what brings in more money, how can I make more?

make more? make more? My filter is how can I help people best? My filter is how can I help people best? My filter is how can I help people best? And sometimes that means there's a small And sometimes that means there's a small And sometimes that means there's a small group of people that I go really deep group of people that I go really deep group of people that I go really deep with. with. with. Sometimes it means I'm spreading a Sometimes it means I'm spreading a Sometimes it means I'm spreading a message, trying to reach as many people message, trying to reach as many people message, trying to reach as many people with, you know, a shallow message as I with, you know, a shallow message as I with, you know, a shallow message as I possibly can. Uh and so it looks possibly can. Uh and so it looks possibly can. Uh and so it looks different for different people based on different for different people based on different for different people based on their their their talents and skills. talents and skills. talents and skills. But I want my work to be an extension of But I want my work to be an extension of But I want my work to be an extension of love. I want it to be selfless. I want love. I want it to be selfless. I want love. I want it to be selfless. I want to be for the good of people and for the to be for the good of people and for the to be for the good of people and for the good of the kingdom. And so, new ideas good of the kingdom. And so, new ideas good of the kingdom. And so, new ideas come by my desk all the time, um all the come by my desk all the time, um all the come by my desk all the time, um all the time. And my filter is always, does this time. And my filter is always, does this time. And my filter is always, does this help us reach more people? And sometimes help us reach more people? And sometimes help us reach more people? And sometimes expanding, sometimes adding people to expanding, sometimes adding people to expanding, sometimes adding people to the team helps us reach more people. the team helps us reach more people. the team helps us reach more people. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes charging Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes charging Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes charging more for a product allows me frees me up more for a product allows me frees me up more for a product allows me frees me up to help them more. Sometimes it means it to help them more. Sometimes it means it to help them more. Sometimes it means it doesn't. And so, you know, there's no doesn't. And so, you know, there's no doesn't. And so, you know, there's no black or maybe there is a a perfect black or maybe there is a a perfect black or maybe there is a a perfect filter I could run all my decisions filter I could run all my decisions filter I could run all my decisions through, but uh but that's the one that through, but uh but that's the one that through, but uh but that's the one that and um what I feel like God is calling and um what I feel like God is calling and um what I feel like God is calling me to do. So, but how can I help more me to do. So, but how can I help more me to do. So, but how can I help more people? And pastors need to hear that.

people? And pastors need to hear that. people? And pastors need to hear that. Like different pastors need to hear Like different pastors need to hear Like different pastors need to hear that. And what is your giftedness? And that. And what is your giftedness? And that. And what is your giftedness? And uh what is God called you to do in the uh what is God called you to do in the uh what is God called you to do in the kingdom? Uh if it's meeting with people, kingdom? Uh if it's meeting with people, kingdom? Uh if it's meeting with people, then it's meeting with people. If it's then it's meeting with people. If it's then it's meeting with people. If it's teaching, then find out how to teach. If teaching, then find out how to teach. If teaching, then find out how to teach. If it's mercy, if it's discernment, if it's it's mercy, if it's discernment, if it's it's mercy, if it's discernment, if it's compassion, if it's encouragement, like compassion, if it's encouragement, like compassion, if it's encouragement, like what is God called you to do? What are what is God called you to do? What are what is God called you to do? What are the talents and skills and giftedness? the talents and skills and giftedness? the talents and skills and giftedness? And then you just use that um to serve And then you just use that um to serve And then you just use that um to serve as many people as you possibly can. as many people as you possibly can. as many people as you possibly can. And and going back to the previous And and going back to the previous And and going back to the previous conversation, that doesn't mean working conversation, that doesn't mean working conversation, that doesn't mean working 7 hours a week, 20 hours a week, you 7 hours a week, 20 hours a week, you 7 hours a week, 20 hours a week, you know, 7 days a week, 20 hours a week, 20 know, 7 days a week, 20 hours a week, 20 know, 7 days a week, 20 hours a week, 20 hours a day. It's hours a day. It's hours a day. It's hey, I need margin. I need rest in order hey, I need margin. I need rest in order hey, I need margin. I need rest in order to do this better. Um and sometimes we to do this better. Um and sometimes we to do this better. Um and sometimes we have to hear that message. Um but I have to hear that message. Um but I have to hear that message. Um but I think trying to be all things uh can be think trying to be all things uh can be think trying to be all things uh can be problem some. problem some. problem some. I imagine minimalism isn't a I imagine minimalism isn't a I imagine minimalism isn't a once-and-done thing. It's a continued once-and-done thing. It's a continued once-and-done thing. It's a continued conversation and daily decisions. What conversation and daily decisions. What conversation and daily decisions. What are some current tension points in your are some current tension points in your are some current tension points in your life or in your decision-making life or in your decision-making life or in your decision-making where where where it's still hard to know it's still hard to know it's still hard to know okay, this is the right way to go or is okay, this is the right way to go or is okay, this is the right way to go or is this the right way to go? Like what are this the right way to go? Like what are this the right way to go? Like what are some current cutting edges of what some current cutting edges of what some current cutting edges of what you're in?

you're in? you're in? Well, I think uh technology is uh is Well, I think uh technology is uh is Well, I think uh technology is uh is always is always an issue and um always is always an issue and um always is always an issue and um what is when is technology what is when is technology what is when is technology I make my living online. So, when is the I make my living online. So, when is the I make my living online. So, when is the technology helping me reach more people technology helping me reach more people technology helping me reach more people better? Uh when is it just something better? Uh when is it just something better? Uh when is it just something that I think would be cool? that I think would be cool? that I think would be cool? Um Um Um when am I being my when am I being my when am I being my authentic self? When am I trying to to authentic self? When am I trying to to authentic self? When am I trying to to put on a put on a show? Um, my book, um, put on a put on a show? Um, my book, um, put on a put on a show? Um, my book, um, Things That Matter, which is what the Things That Matter, which is what the Things That Matter, which is what the previous podcast was about, uh, goes previous podcast was about, uh, goes previous podcast was about, uh, goes through other distractions besides through other distractions besides through other distractions besides possessions that can keep us from possessions that can keep us from possessions that can keep us from meaning. It's not a faith-based book, meaning. It's not a faith-based book, meaning. It's not a faith-based book, although it's all biblical based. Um, although it's all biblical based. Um, although it's all biblical based. Um, and the the one chapter that and the the one chapter that and the the one chapter that I keep coming back to over and over I keep coming back to over and over I keep coming back to over and over again is uh, the pursuit of praise and again is uh, the pursuit of praise and again is uh, the pursuit of praise and wanting people to to notice me, and I wanting people to to notice me, and I wanting people to to notice me, and I always blame having a twin brother who always blame having a twin brother who always blame having a twin brother who was more successful at everything was more successful at everything was more successful at everything growing up. And growing up. And growing up. And uh, maybe that's true, maybe it's not, uh, maybe that's true, maybe it's not, uh, maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but for me I always feel like I've but for me I always feel like I've but for me I always feel like I've constantly been trying to to measure up constantly been trying to to measure up constantly been trying to to measure up and make sure notice make sure people and make sure notice make sure people and make sure notice make sure people notice me as well. Uh, and so that's the notice me as well. Uh, and so that's the notice me as well. Uh, and so that's the one that I have to constantly guard one that I have to constantly guard one that I have to constantly guard against and try to be as faithful as I against and try to be as faithful as I against and try to be as faithful as I possibly can in my doing what I'm doing possibly can in my doing what I'm doing possibly can in my doing what I'm doing for the sake of the kingdom. Am I doing for the sake of the kingdom. Am I doing for the sake of the kingdom. Am I doing what I'm doing for the sake of myself what I'm doing for the sake of myself what I'm doing for the sake of myself and for attention? Um, and so I and for attention? Um, and so I and for attention? Um, and so I I'd say that's the thing I keep coming I'd say that's the thing I keep coming I'd say that's the thing I keep coming back to over and over again. I'm a

back to over and over again. I'm a back to over and over again. I'm a number three. number three. number three. >> Do you know it? >> Do you know it? >> Do you know it? >> Uh, I uh, you know what? I'm so bad at >> Uh, I uh, you know what? I'm so bad at >> Uh, I uh, you know what? I'm so bad at the Enneagram numbers. I have it the Enneagram numbers. I have it the Enneagram numbers. I have it somewhere snapshotted in my phone, but somewhere snapshotted in my phone, but somewhere snapshotted in my phone, but >> I'm I'm guessing you're a three with >> I'm I'm guessing you're a three with >> I'm I'm guessing you're a three with that. that. that. With that Achilles heel, I'm I'm With that Achilles heel, I'm I'm With that Achilles heel, I'm I'm guessing. Yeah. I think I could look it guessing. Yeah. I think I could look it guessing. Yeah. I think I could look it up. It's somewhere on there. I'm sure my up. It's somewhere on there. I'm sure my up. It's somewhere on there. I'm sure my phone would let me search for it, but phone would let me search for it, but phone would let me search for it, but yeah. yeah. yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, just just it was a >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, just just it was a >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, just just it was a it was a an aside. Um, it was a an aside. Um, it was a an aside. Um, last thoughts, AI. What do you What are last thoughts, AI. What do you What are last thoughts, AI. What do you What are your thoughts? You do make your living your thoughts? You do make your living your thoughts? You do make your living online like I do. online like I do. online like I do. Um, what are your thoughts about AI? The Um, what are your thoughts about AI? The Um, what are your thoughts about AI? The opportunities, the risks, the threats. opportunities, the risks, the threats. opportunities, the risks, the threats. I've been in a two-year wormhole on I've been in a two-year wormhole on I've been in a two-year wormhole on artificial intelligence. artificial intelligence. artificial intelligence. And I'm curious in in seeing what you And I'm curious in in seeing what you And I'm curious in in seeing what you think about it. think about it. think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How many hours have we got left on this How many hours have we got left on this How many hours have we got left on this on this baby? [laughter] on this baby? [laughter] on this baby? [laughter] You've been thinking about it, too. You've been thinking about it, too. You've been thinking about it, too. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Okay, let's go. Let's go. >> I will um >> I will um >> I will um I will say this um AI ever ever changing uh I think the the AI ever ever changing uh I think the the message that we message that we message that we how it connects to minimalism, I'm I'm how it connects to minimalism, I'm I'm how it connects to minimalism, I'm I'm not sure. We'll we'll see how that all not sure. We'll we'll see how that all not sure. We'll we'll see how that all how that all plays out. I I think right how that all plays out. I I think right how that all plays out. I I think right now the posture that we we need to take now the posture that we we need to take now the posture that we we need to take is is is AI is one of the most AI is one of the most AI is one of the most if not the most powerful tool if not the most powerful tool if not the most powerful tool humans have ever created.

humans have ever created. humans have ever created. Um Um Um how am I going to use it for good? Uh how am I going to use it for good? Uh how am I going to use it for good? Uh how do I use it in a way that benefits how do I use it in a way that benefits how do I use it in a way that benefits the kingdom of God, that benefits my the kingdom of God, that benefits my the kingdom of God, that benefits my people um that I'm shepherding, that I'm people um that I'm shepherding, that I'm people um that I'm shepherding, that I'm leading, that I'm trying to to to lead. leading, that I'm trying to to to lead. leading, that I'm trying to to to lead. Uh and and how does it how does it Uh and and how does it how does it Uh and and how does it how does it benefit me? Um benefit me? Um benefit me? Um AI can make me incredibly more efficient AI can make me incredibly more efficient AI can make me incredibly more efficient or AI can make me incredibly more lazy. or AI can make me incredibly more lazy. or AI can make me incredibly more lazy. And it's it's a razor's edge between the And it's it's a razor's edge between the And it's it's a razor's edge between the two and maybe even teeter back and forth two and maybe even teeter back and forth two and maybe even teeter back and forth on some days, but leaning into uh if on some days, but leaning into uh if on some days, but leaning into uh if this makes me a better pastor, if this this makes me a better pastor, if this this makes me a better pastor, if this makes me a better leader, if this makes me a better leader, if this makes me a better leader, if this um makes me a better writer, then why um makes me a better writer, then why um makes me a better writer, then why wouldn't I use the tool? Um but if it's wouldn't I use the tool? Um but if it's wouldn't I use the tool? Um but if it's making but if I get to the point where making but if I get to the point where making but if I get to the point where it's it's it's you know you know you know keeping me from uh keeping me from uh keeping me from uh keeping me from growing and keeping me keeping me from growing and keeping me keeping me from growing and keeping me from being effective, then then I want from being effective, then then I want from being effective, then then I want to dial it back and to dial it back and to dial it back and I don't know. I think the illustration I don't know. I think the illustration I don't know. I think the illustration of of of like humans discovering fire is is what like humans discovering fire is is what like humans discovering fire is is what I keep going back to like I keep going back to like I keep going back to like I don't know, a story. Humanity I don't know, a story. Humanity I don't know, a story. Humanity discovers fire, you know, in some discovers fire, you know, in some discovers fire, you know, in some fictional past, and like here's this fictional past, and like here's this fictional past, and like here's this amazing tool that can boil water and amazing tool that can boil water and amazing tool that can boil water and change metal, or it can burn down an change metal, or it can burn down an change metal, or it can burn down an entire city, and and kill people along entire city, and and kill people along entire city, and and kill people along the way. And so, how do I use fire for

the way. And so, how do I use fire for the way. And so, how do I use fire for good without it harming people along the good without it harming people along the good without it harming people along the way? And I think AI is the same. Um how way? And I think AI is the same. Um how way? And I think AI is the same. Um how do I use it for good and not harming do I use it for good and not harming do I use it for good and not harming people? Here out I'll say this. people? Here out I'll say this. people? Here out I'll say this. Um I think one thing that the church Um I think one thing that the church Um I think one thing that the church needs needs needs more than ever, more than ever, more than ever, uh and this is for everybody listening, uh and this is for everybody listening, uh and this is for everybody listening, um um um I think the church I think the church I think the church under values under values under values the spiritual gift of discernment. the spiritual gift of discernment. the spiritual gift of discernment. Uh and I think we are coming into an age Uh and I think we are coming into an age Uh and I think we are coming into an age where maybe the most important spiritual where maybe the most important spiritual where maybe the most important spiritual gift in the church is going to be gift in the church is going to be gift in the church is going to be discernment. Mhm. Who is from God? discernment. Mhm. Who is from God? discernment. Mhm. Who is from God? >> it, haven't we? >> it, haven't we? >> it, haven't we? Yeah. Who and I mean, it's it's there, Yeah. Who and I mean, it's it's there, Yeah. Who and I mean, it's it's there, but we don't we don't value it. We we but we don't we don't value it. We we but we don't we don't value it. We we don't rely on it. And so, if you're a don't rely on it. And so, if you're a don't rely on it. And so, if you're a pastor, um like you, you need to know pastor, um like you, you need to know pastor, um like you, you need to know who are the people in your church that who are the people in your church that who are the people in your church that have the spiritual gift of discernment have the spiritual gift of discernment have the spiritual gift of discernment that can speak into the that can speak into the that can speak into the not just the the the the growth of not just the the the the growth of not just the the the the growth of voices. Everybody has a voice online, voices. Everybody has a voice online, voices. Everybody has a voice online, and anybody can put up anything they and anybody can put up anything they and anybody can put up anything they want, and we need discernment to know want, and we need discernment to know want, and we need discernment to know what is from God and and what is not. Um what is from God and and what is not. Um what is from God and and what is not. Um and with the growth of AI and and with the growth of AI and and with the growth of AI and the changes that are coming, like who the changes that are coming, like who the changes that are coming, like who can discern what is what is true and can discern what is what is true and can discern what is what is true and what is false? And uh if you have that what is false? And uh if you have that what is false? And uh if you have that gift, um you'll be learning it, and gift, um you'll be learning it, and gift, um you'll be learning it, and you'll be leaning into it. And if you you'll be leaning into it. And if you you'll be leaning into it. And if you don't have that gift and can't name the don't have that gift and can't name the don't have that gift and can't name the person in your life who does, person in your life who does, person in your life who does, uh be sure to find it and start relying uh be sure to find it and start relying uh be sure to find it and start relying on that person as much as you can.

on that person as much as you can. on that person as much as you can. It's good word. Well, the book the new It's good word. Well, the book the new It's good word. Well, the book the new book is called Uncluttered Faith. Uh book is called Uncluttered Faith. Uh book is called Uncluttered Faith. Uh it's about owning less, loving more, and it's about owning less, loving more, and it's about owning less, loving more, and making an impact on your world. Uh, it's making an impact on your world. Uh, it's making an impact on your world. Uh, it's out and available everywhere. Joshua, if out and available everywhere. Joshua, if out and available everywhere. Joshua, if people want to follow you personally people want to follow you personally people want to follow you personally online, where's an easy place to connect online, where's an easy place to connect online, where's an easy place to connect these days? these days? these days? Sure, I'll send them to two places. Sure, I'll send them to two places. Sure, I'll send them to two places. joshuabecker.com is uh my personal home joshuabecker.com is uh my personal home joshuabecker.com is uh my personal home base. Uh, becomingminimalist.com base. Uh, becomingminimalist.com base. Uh, becomingminimalist.com is home base for my writing, is home base for my writing, is home base for my writing, um writing about minimalism and uh um writing about minimalism and uh um writing about minimalism and uh resources and opportunities there. So, resources and opportunities there. So, resources and opportunities there. So, thanks so much for talking about thanks so much for talking about thanks so much for talking about Uncluttered Faith. I I appreciate it. It Uncluttered Faith. I I appreciate it. It Uncluttered Faith. I I appreciate it. It is a important message for the church is a important message for the church is a important message for the church and and and um if you're a pastor, I hope you pick um if you're a pastor, I hope you pick um if you're a pastor, I hope you pick up the book and read it. Um I think that up the book and read it. Um I think that up the book and read it. Um I think that you'll find it to be you'll find it to be you'll find it to be um invitational and helpful and um invitational and helpful and um invitational and helpful and encouraging and really provide some encouraging and really provide some encouraging and really provide some helpful words to to move people towards helpful words to to move people towards helpful words to to move people towards intentional living. Um I was once asked intentional living. Um I was once asked intentional living. Um I was once asked Sorry, you didn't ask me this question, Sorry, you didn't ask me this question, Sorry, you didn't ask me this question, but I'll end with it cuz I think it's so but I'll end with it cuz I think it's so but I'll end with it cuz I think it's so important. important. important. >> yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I often >> yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I often >> yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I often skip around.

skip around. skip around. >> I was I was speaking at a church and um >> I was I was speaking at a church and um >> I was I was speaking at a church and um I would take questions at the end. Uh a I would take questions at the end. Uh a I would take questions at the end. Uh a a old lady in the back raise her hand a old lady in the back raise her hand a old lady in the back raise her hand and she said, "If our church actually and she said, "If our church actually and she said, "If our church actually lived out this minimalism, what would we lived out this minimalism, what would we lived out this minimalism, what would we look like 6 months from now?" Yeah. And look like 6 months from now?" Yeah. And look like 6 months from now?" Yeah. And I I've never been asked the question I I've never been asked the question I I've never been asked the question before. I had never thought of it. Uh I before. I had never thought of it. Uh I before. I had never thought of it. Uh I just thank the Lord that I I think he just thank the Lord that I I think he just thank the Lord that I I think he gave me the answer. I said, gave me the answer. I said, gave me the answer. I said, "I think we'd look like the early "I think we'd look like the early "I think we'd look like the early church." Like this is the story of Acts church." Like this is the story of Acts church." Like this is the story of Acts chapter 2 that people sold their chapter 2 that people sold their chapter 2 that people sold their possessions and they cared for one possessions and they cared for one possessions and they cared for one another who had in need. And then what another who had in need. And then what another who had in need. And then what was the result of that? was the result of that? was the result of that? The Lord added to their number daily The Lord added to their number daily The Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. I think if those who were being saved. I think if those who were being saved. I think if the church started living this out and the church started living this out and the church started living this out and just owning what we needed and getting just owning what we needed and getting just owning what we needed and getting rid of the world so that we can have rid of the world so that we can have rid of the world so that we can have more of God, uh the the world would see more of God, uh the the world would see more of God, uh the the world would see a church that is loving and is united, a church that is loving and is united, a church that is loving and is united, is sacrificial. I think they would see a is sacrificial. I think they would see a is sacrificial. I think they would see a church that looks more like Jesus uh and church that looks more like Jesus uh and church that looks more like Jesus uh and they would be drawn to it and without a they would be drawn to it and without a they would be drawn to it and without a doubt the Lord would add to our number doubt the Lord would add to our number doubt the Lord would add to our number daily. So may it may it be so. May it be daily. So may it may it be so. May it be daily. So may it may it be so. May it be so.

so. so. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. That Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. That Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. That was question 15. How what would change was question 15. How what would change was question 15. How what would change if in churches if in churches if in churches how they operate if they took Jesus how they operate if they took Jesus how they operate if they took Jesus teachings on possession seriously. I teachings on possession seriously. I teachings on possession seriously. I think you're right. It would be very think you're right. It would be very think you're right. It would be very different and you know, your work different and you know, your work different and you know, your work actually a couple of people I'm actually a couple of people I'm actually a couple of people I'm interviewing right now, Eric Reese as interviewing right now, Eric Reese as interviewing right now, Eric Reese as well and others well and others well and others it's sort of Jim Collins undisciplined it's sort of Jim Collins undisciplined it's sort of Jim Collins undisciplined pursuit of more. pursuit of more. pursuit of more. Right? That's what gets us whether it's Right? That's what gets us whether it's Right? That's what gets us whether it's more campuses, more services and listen, more campuses, more services and listen, more campuses, more services and listen, we got to reach more people. we got to reach more people. we got to reach more people. But then sometimes the tail wags the But then sometimes the tail wags the But then sometimes the tail wags the dog. It's like, well, you want to reach dog. It's like, well, you want to reach dog. It's like, well, you want to reach more people, but do you really want to more people, but do you really want to more people, but do you really want to just add another service or do you just add another service or do you just add another service or do you really just want another location or do really just want another location or do really just want another location or do you really like you really like you really like who that motive shift, man, it's it gets who that motive shift, man, it's it gets who that motive shift, man, it's it gets me every time. me every time. me every time. Do you really want more listeners to Do you really want more listeners to Do you really want more listeners to this podcast because it's going to help this podcast because it's going to help this podcast because it's going to help more people or do you just want more more people or do you just want more more people or do you just want more listeners? Like what do you want? listeners? Like what do you want? listeners? Like what do you want? Oh, that's a big one. Well, listen, you Oh, that's a big one. Well, listen, you Oh, that's a big one. Well, listen, you ask great questions. You got three ask great questions. You got three ask great questions. You got three books, The More of Less, The Minimalist books, The More of Less, The Minimalist books, The More of Less, The Minimalist Home, now this one Uncluttered Faith, Home, now this one Uncluttered Faith, Home, now this one Uncluttered Faith, Joshua. Joshua. Joshua. Thank you for what you're doing. You are Thank you for what you're doing. You are Thank you for what you're doing. You are an important voice in my life an important voice in my life an important voice in my life and these are things I personally and these are things I personally and these are things I personally wrestle with. So I'm really grateful for wrestle with. So I'm really grateful for wrestle with. So I'm really grateful for you. Thank you.

you. Thank you. you. Thank you. Well, grateful for you and your service Well, grateful for you and your service Well, grateful for you and your service to the kingdom and love being on the to the kingdom and love being on the to the kingdom and love being on the same team. So thanks for having me on. same team. So thanks for having me on. same team. So thanks for having me on. Well, if you enjoyed this conversation, Well, if you enjoyed this conversation, Well, if you enjoyed this conversation, you can get more including the links to you can get more including the links to you can get more including the links to everything that we talked about in the everything that we talked about in the everything that we talked about in the show notes. Where will you find the show show notes. Where will you find the show show notes. Where will you find the show notes? You're going to find them inside notes? You're going to find them inside notes? You're going to find them inside my Art of Leadership Academy. We have my Art of Leadership Academy. We have my Art of Leadership Academy. We have 21,000 leaders inside the academy now. I 21,000 leaders inside the academy now. I 21,000 leaders inside the academy now. I would love for you to move from the would love for you to move from the would love for you to move from the crowd to the core. And in there we have crowd to the core. And in there we have crowd to the core. And in there we have conversations about well, this episode conversations about well, this episode conversations about well, this episode and all the other episodes on the and all the other episodes on the and all the other episodes on the podcast. Speaking of which we've got podcast. Speaking of which we've got podcast. Speaking of which we've got Matt Chandler, Matt Chandler, Matt Chandler, John Ortberg, Al Gordon, David Epstein John Ortberg, Al Gordon, David Epstein John Ortberg, Al Gordon, David Epstein and a whole lot more coming up on the and a whole lot more coming up on the and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast and you can join the academy podcast and you can join the academy podcast and you can join the academy absolutely free. There's a paid tier, absolutely free. There's a paid tier, absolutely free. There's a paid tier, which we would invite you to, but hey, which we would invite you to, but hey, which we would invite you to, but hey, absolutely free get started today. Go to absolutely free get started today. Go to absolutely free get started today. Go to the art of leadership academy.com. I'm the art of leadership academy.com. I'm the art of leadership academy.com. I'm in there on the regular, would love to in there on the regular, would love to in there on the regular, would love to meet you in there. So, kind of move from meet you in there. So, kind of move from meet you in there. So, kind of move from the crowd to the core. We'll see you in the crowd to the core. We'll see you in the crowd to the core. We'll see you in there, and you'll be up to date on there, and you'll be up to date on there, and you'll be up to date on everything that happens as well. One everything that happens as well. One everything that happens as well. One more thing I want to leave you with is more thing I want to leave you with is more thing I want to leave you with is every Friday I write a newsletter called every Friday I write a newsletter called every Friday I write a newsletter called On the Rise. And that is a newsletter On the Rise. And that is a newsletter On the Rise. And that is a newsletter that I just love putting together. It's that I just love putting together. It's that I just love putting together. It's the best of what I found in that the best of what I found in that the best of what I found in that particular week, the curious, particular week, the curious, particular week, the curious, interesting, provocative things that I interesting, provocative things that I interesting, provocative things that I found on the internet. I kind of sift found on the internet. I kind of sift found on the internet. I kind of sift through everything for you, and then I through everything for you, and then I through everything for you, and then I send you three or four or five of the send you three or four or five of the send you three or four or five of the most important things I have found in most important things I have found in most important things I have found in that particular week. You can go to that particular week. You can go to that particular week. You can go to ontherisenewsletter.com ontherisenewsletter.com ontherisenewsletter.com to subscribe to that. It'll pop in your to subscribe to that. It'll pop in your to subscribe to that. It'll pop in your inbox along with over 100,000 other

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