The Red Flags Driving Women Out of Church (and How to Fix Them)

severe breakdown of trust and uh severe breakdown of trust and uh I think there's a lot of pieces that go I think there's a lot of pieces that go I think there's a lot of pieces that go into that uh but it is probably the into that uh but it is probably the into that uh but it is probably the number one issue I would say I think number one issue I would say I think number one issue I would say I think women for the last 10 years have been women for the last 10 years have been women for the last 10 years have been voting with their feet. voting with their feet. voting with their feet. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. I hope our time leadership podcast. I hope our time leadership podcast. I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life together today helps you thrive in life together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, today tackling a and leadership. Well, today tackling a and leadership. Well, today tackling a tough issue. Why are women leaving the tough issue. Why are women leaving the tough issue. Why are women leaving the church? and I sit down with Katie Cole church? and I sit down with Katie Cole church? and I sit down with Katie Cole who's got extensive experience [music] who's got extensive experience [music] who's got extensive experience [music] in this issue. And while we don't have in this issue. And while we don't have in this issue. And while we don't have data yet, we do have thoughts that I data yet, we do have thoughts that I data yet, we do have thoughts that I think are going to be really helpful. think are going to be really helpful. think are going to be really helpful. She reveals the number one reason why She reveals the number one reason why She reveals the number one reason why she believes women don't trust the she believes women don't trust the she believes women don't trust the church anymore. [music] church anymore. [music] church anymore. [music] We talk about investment in versus ROI. We talk about investment in versus ROI. We talk about investment in versus ROI. We talk about culture and a whole lot We talk about culture and a whole lot We talk about culture and a whole lot more. And I think there are clues here. more. And I think there are clues here. more. And I think there are clues here. So whether you're complimentarian, So whether you're complimentarian, So whether you're complimentarian, egalitarian in your theology, we talk egalitarian in your theology, we talk egalitarian in your theology, we talk about what that means, why everybody about what that means, why everybody about what that means, why everybody probably could use to benefit from probably could use to benefit from probably could use to benefit from honoring women better and treating them honoring women better and treating them honoring women better and treating them better and a whole lot more in this better and a whole lot more in this better and a whole lot more in this episode. It's fascinating. It's episode. It's fascinating. It's episode. It's fascinating. It's eyeopening and you'll want to sharpen eyeopening and you'll want to sharpen eyeopening and you'll want to sharpen your pencil and get a little bit of your pencil and get a little bit of your pencil and get a little bit of homework done as a result. We also come homework done as a result. We also come homework done as a result. We also come to some very practical solutions and to some very practical solutions and to some very practical solutions and suggestions as well. You can get show suggestions as well. You can get show suggestions as well. You can get show notes for this by going to notes for this by going to notes for this by going to carnneuhoff.com/showotes carnneuhoff.com/showotes carnneuhoff.com/showotes or even easier, they're all in my art of or even easier, they're all in my art of or even easier, they're all in my art of leadership academy. Go to the leadership academy. Go to the leadership academy. Go to the arttoofleershipacademy.com.

arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. Hey, Katie Cole is a leadership Hey, Katie Cole is a leadership Hey, Katie Cole is a leadership consultant, author, and speaker. She has consultant, author, and speaker. She has consultant, author, and speaker. She has three decades of experience in three decades of experience in three decades of experience in organizational development. She's a organizational development. She's a organizational development. She's a former executive director at one of former executive director at one of former executive director at one of America's largest multi-sight churches. America's largest multi-sight churches. America's largest multi-sight churches. She specializes in helping churches and She specializes in helping churches and She specializes in helping churches and organizations harness the leadership organizations harness the leadership organizations harness the leadership potential of both men and women. She potential of both men and women. She potential of both men and women. She wrote an incredible book called wrote an incredible book called wrote an incredible book called Developing Female Leaders. She has a Developing Female Leaders. She has a Developing Female Leaders. She has a brand new podcast. We'll talk about brand new podcast. We'll talk about brand new podcast. We'll talk about that. And so without further ado, my that. And so without further ado, my that. And so without further ado, my conversation with Katie Cole on why conversation with Katie Cole on why conversation with Katie Cole on why women are disengaging from church. women are disengaging from church. women are disengaging from church. Katie, welcome back to the podcast. I Katie, welcome back to the podcast. I Katie, welcome back to the podcast. I always love our conversations. always love our conversations. always love our conversations. >> Thank you so much, Carrie. It's always >> Thank you so much, Carrie. It's always >> Thank you so much, Carrie. It's always an honor to be here and I'm excited to an honor to be here and I'm excited to an honor to be here and I'm excited to dive into today's topic. dive into today's topic. dive into today's topic. >> Well, we're going to solve a problem >> Well, we're going to solve a problem >> Well, we're going to solve a problem once and for all about why women are once and for all about why women are once and for all about why women are leaving the church. [laughter] leaving the church. [laughter] leaving the church. [laughter] We talked about it. We don't have any We talked about it. We don't have any We talked about it. We don't have any current data on that, like any polls. current data on that, like any polls. current data on that, like any polls. >> Um, but I was really grateful when you >> Um, but I was really grateful when you >> Um, but I was really grateful when you said, "Yeah, I'll I'll come on and we'll said, "Yeah, I'll I'll come on and we'll said, "Yeah, I'll I'll come on and we'll try to at least put our try to at least put our try to at least put our >> heads around this issue for an hour or >> heads around this issue for an hour or >> heads around this issue for an hour or so and see what what we can learn about so and see what what we can learn about so and see what what we can learn about it." And the good news is I believe it." And the good news is I believe it." And the good news is I believe there is research being done on this there is research being done on this there is research being done on this >> later this year in 2026. So hopefully >> later this year in 2026. So hopefully >> later this year in 2026. So hopefully we'll have some data to pour over. But we'll have some data to pour over. But we'll have some data to pour over. But Katie, I'm just so grateful for your Katie, I'm just so grateful for your Katie, I'm just so grateful for your ministry and uh grateful for you and you ministry and uh grateful for you and you ministry and uh grateful for you and you just seem to be in in an era of outrage.

just seem to be in in an era of outrage. just seem to be in in an era of outrage. You seem to be like a sane I can work You seem to be like a sane I can work You seem to be like a sane I can work with these people. I can work with those with these people. I can work with those with these people. I can work with those people. Like that kind of person. So I people. Like that kind of person. So I people. Like that kind of person. So I just want to say thank you for who you just want to say thank you for who you just want to say thank you for who you are. are. are. >> Well, thanks so much. I appreciate that. >> Well, thanks so much. I appreciate that. >> Well, thanks so much. I appreciate that. It is an interesting time. I'll give you It is an interesting time. I'll give you It is an interesting time. I'll give you that. that. that. >> Oh, tell me about it, man. Okay. Well, >> Oh, tell me about it, man. Okay. Well, >> Oh, tell me about it, man. Okay. Well, let's start here. Can you define for let's start here. Can you define for let's start here. Can you define for those who have heard the terms but maybe those who have heard the terms but maybe those who have heard the terms but maybe don't understand them what is the don't understand them what is the don't understand them what is the difference between a complimentarian difference between a complimentarian difference between a complimentarian view complimentarian view of women in view complimentarian view of women in view complimentarian view of women in leadership in the church versus an leadership in the church versus an leadership in the church versus an egalitarian view of women in leadership egalitarian view of women in leadership egalitarian view of women in leadership in the church because we have both in the church because we have both in the church because we have both constituencies listening and the thing I constituencies listening and the thing I constituencies listening and the thing I love that you know the first time we love that you know the first time we love that you know the first time we talked about this you you serve both talked about this you you serve both talked about this you you serve both churches very happily churches very happily churches very happily >> which is cool >> which is cool >> which is cool >> so what what what's the difference >> so what what what's the difference >> so what what what's the difference between complimentarianism ism and between complimentarianism ism and between complimentarianism ism and egalitarianism. egalitarianism. egalitarianism. >> Sure. These are two different ways of >> Sure. These are two different ways of >> Sure. These are two different ways of looking how men and women interact looking how men and women interact looking how men and women interact together in the body. And really it together in the body. And really it together in the body. And really it comes from our theology around the comes from our theology around the comes from our theology around the trinity. How we believe God the father, trinity. How we believe God the father, trinity. How we believe God the father, God the son, God the holy spirit God the son, God the holy spirit God the son, God the holy spirit interact together. So a complimentarian interact together. So a complimentarian interact together. So a complimentarian or also known as like a hierarchical or also known as like a hierarchical or also known as like a hierarchical view is that God the father is like at view is that God the father is like at view is that God the father is like at the top of the hierarchy and then he the top of the hierarchy and then he the top of the hierarchy and then he gives his orders to Jesus. Jesus carries gives his orders to Jesus. Jesus carries gives his orders to Jesus. Jesus carries them out. He gives orders to the holy them out. He gives orders to the holy them out. He gives orders to the holy spirit. The Holy Spirit car carries that spirit. The Holy Spirit car carries that spirit. The Holy Spirit car carries that out. And in the unity of the trinity, out. And in the unity of the trinity, out. And in the unity of the trinity, there's hierarchy where everyone's equal there's hierarchy where everyone's equal there's hierarchy where everyone's equal but complimentary. That's where that but complimentary. That's where that but complimentary. That's where that term complimentarian comes from. They're term complimentarian comes from. They're term complimentarian comes from. They're complimentary. So in the body of Christ, complimentary. So in the body of Christ, complimentary. So in the body of Christ, then we take that image of God and as we then we take that image of God and as we then we take that image of God and as we bear the image of God in our

bear the image of God in our bear the image of God in our interactions with each other. We then interactions with each other. We then interactions with each other. We then have the same complimentary but have the same complimentary but have the same complimentary but hierarchical view. Uh on the other side, hierarchical view. Uh on the other side, hierarchical view. Uh on the other side, and I hate to even describe it as binary and I hate to even describe it as binary and I hate to even describe it as binary because there's a lot of nuances in because there's a lot of nuances in because there's a lot of nuances in between and people express true. There between and people express true. There between and people express true. There are people who are probably well almost are people who are probably well almost are people who are probably well almost >> yeah but it does kind of tend to be >> yeah but it does kind of tend to be >> yeah but it does kind of tend to be these two main theologies. Uh these two main theologies. Uh these two main theologies. Uh egalitarian is uh really is the root egalitarian is uh really is the root egalitarian is uh really is the root word for equal and it means when uh this word for equal and it means when uh this word for equal and it means when uh this person thinks of the trinity they're person thinks of the trinity they're person thinks of the trinity they're thinking of those three people not in thinking of those three people not in thinking of those three people not in terms of top down but more circular. terms of top down but more circular. terms of top down but more circular. They're equal. They're interchangeable. They're equal. They're interchangeable. They're equal. They're interchangeable. They collaborate. They're unified in They collaborate. They're unified in They collaborate. They're unified in their oneness. And there's equality their oneness. And there's equality their oneness. And there's equality among them. Different roles, yes, but no among them. Different roles, yes, but no among them. Different roles, yes, but no one person over another. And so when we one person over another. And so when we one person over another. And so when we see that expressed in the community of see that expressed in the community of see that expressed in the community of Jesus's body, you know, particularly in Jesus's body, you know, particularly in Jesus's body, you know, particularly in church or leadership, there's equality church or leadership, there's equality church or leadership, there's equality between men and women. There isn't between men and women. There isn't between men and women. There isn't certain roles that are open for men or certain roles that are open for men or certain roles that are open for men or not open for women. There isn't a male not open for women. There isn't a male not open for women. There isn't a male headship that a complimentarian church headship that a complimentarian church headship that a complimentarian church would have. Uh, and I think it's would have. Uh, and I think it's would have. Uh, and I think it's important to say this is really important to say this is really important to say this is really considered a secondary theological considered a secondary theological considered a secondary theological issue, meaning people who love God and issue, meaning people who love God and issue, meaning people who love God and know the Bible can make really strong know the Bible can make really strong know the Bible can make really strong biblical cases for either one of these.

biblical cases for either one of these. biblical cases for either one of these. uh we will we really will not know. Some uh we will we really will not know. Some uh we will we really will not know. Some people have very very strong opinions people have very very strong opinions people have very very strong opinions and they know they're right. I'm very and they know they're right. I'm very and they know they're right. I'm very cautious about that on any secondary cautious about that on any secondary cautious about that on any secondary issues. I sort of say we're all going to issues. I sort of say we're all going to issues. I sort of say we're all going to get to heaven and half of us are going get to heaven and half of us are going get to heaven and half of us are going to be surprised. I'm not exactly sure to be surprised. I'm not exactly sure to be surprised. I'm not exactly sure which half. Uh but those are the two which half. Uh but those are the two which half. Uh but those are the two sort of views of it. And those, as you sort of views of it. And those, as you sort of views of it. And those, as you can imagine, really play out differently can imagine, really play out differently can imagine, really play out differently in church and leadership. And in church and leadership. And in church and leadership. And particularly well it plays out in a lot particularly well it plays out in a lot particularly well it plays out in a lot of different ways but it particularly of different ways but it particularly of different ways but it particularly plays out in our context and culture now plays out in our context and culture now plays out in our context and culture now around women leaders and how far up the around women leaders and how far up the around women leaders and how far up the leadership chain in a church can women leadership chain in a church can women leadership chain in a church can women go. It also has implications in uh go. It also has implications in uh go. It also has implications in uh family dynamics and how a home is run or family dynamics and how a home is run or family dynamics and how a home is run or how decisions are made between a husband how decisions are made between a husband how decisions are made between a husband and wife. It also on extreme ends and wife. It also on extreme ends and wife. It also on extreme ends particularly on the complimentarian side particularly on the complimentarian side particularly on the complimentarian side can have implications in the kind of a can have implications in the kind of a can have implications in the kind of a career a woman could have or not have if career a woman could have or not have if career a woman could have or not have if she has authority over a man. But again, she has authority over a man. But again, she has authority over a man. But again, uh I try to make a case there's really a uh I try to make a case there's really a uh I try to make a case there's really a spectrum rather than sort of a binary spectrum rather than sort of a binary spectrum rather than sort of a binary choice that I'm for or against women choice that I'm for or against women choice that I'm for or against women leaders. Uh so it plays out differently leaders. Uh so it plays out differently leaders. Uh so it plays out differently and all of us probably have experiences and all of us probably have experiences and all of us probably have experiences in a variety of contexts and in a in a variety of contexts and in a in a variety of contexts and in a variety of ways of how that influences variety of ways of how that influences variety of ways of how that influences our belief and uh sort of alignment our belief and uh sort of alignment our belief and uh sort of alignment around that with other people.

around that with other people. around that with other people. >> That's really helpful. So on the >> That's really helpful. So on the >> That's really helpful. So on the egalitarian side though just just you egalitarian side though just just you egalitarian side though just just you know to help me understand know to help me understand know to help me understand does it mean that women and men are the does it mean that women and men are the does it mean that women and men are the same there's no differences or does it same there's no differences or does it same there's no differences or does it mean that no there can still be mean that no there can still be mean that no there can still be distinctive um features characteristics distinctive um features characteristics distinctive um features characteristics of men and women that we are designed by of men and women that we are designed by of men and women that we are designed by God differently just so that we have a God differently just so that we have a God differently just so that we have a little more nuanced understanding of of little more nuanced understanding of of little more nuanced understanding of of um egalitarianism. um egalitarianism. um egalitarianism. >> Sure. On the egalitarian side, >> Sure. On the egalitarian side, >> Sure. On the egalitarian side, definitely uh men and women are definitely uh men and women are definitely uh men and women are different. Uh just like we would say different. Uh just like we would say different. Uh just like we would say again back to the trinity, God the again back to the trinity, God the again back to the trinity, God the father is different than God the son, father is different than God the son, father is different than God the son, different than the holy spirit. different than the holy spirit. different than the holy spirit. Different functions comp, you know, they Different functions comp, you know, they Different functions comp, you know, they do complement and help one another. It's do complement and help one another. It's do complement and help one another. It's more about sort of authority and power. more about sort of authority and power. more about sort of authority and power. I would say on the egalitarian side how I would say on the egalitarian side how I would say on the egalitarian side how that plays out in context though is that plays out in context though is that plays out in context though is there is a lot less gender sort of boxes there is a lot less gender sort of boxes there is a lot less gender sort of boxes that people live into like this is the that people live into like this is the that people live into like this is the right way to be a man or a right way to right way to be a man or a right way to right way to be a man or a right way to be a woman. Women do these roles, men do be a woman. Women do these roles, men do be a woman. Women do these roles, men do those roles, women have these gifts, men those roles, women have these gifts, men those roles, women have these gifts, men have those gifts. Uh there's a lot more have those gifts. Uh there's a lot more have those gifts. Uh there's a lot more assumptions maybe on the way that plays assumptions maybe on the way that plays assumptions maybe on the way that plays out in complimentarian viewpoints. Um out in complimentarian viewpoints. Um out in complimentarian viewpoints. Um but really and again it changes in the but really and again it changes in the but really and again it changes in the dynamic that you find yourself. Um, and dynamic that you find yourself. Um, and dynamic that you find yourself. Um, and I'm not a theological expert on this, I'm not a theological expert on this, I'm not a theological expert on this, but this is kind of just a 101 sort of but this is kind of just a 101 sort of but this is kind of just a 101 sort of orientation to it. Um, I would say both orientation to it. Um, I would say both orientation to it. Um, I would say both people on both sides would say we value people on both sides would say we value people on both sides would say we value women. We value men. We want everyone in women. We value men. We want everyone in women. We value men. We want everyone in the kingdom. I think the heart behind it the kingdom. I think the heart behind it the kingdom. I think the heart behind it is often very much the same. But again,

is often very much the same. But again, is often very much the same. But again, our view of God changes how we interact our view of God changes how we interact our view of God changes how we interact with one another. And that's usually with one another. And that's usually with one another. And that's usually what's at play. what's at play. what's at play. >> Is either inherently misogynist? >> Is either inherently misogynist? >> Is either inherently misogynist? >> Well, theoretically, no. But I do think >> Well, theoretically, no. But I do think >> Well, theoretically, no. But I do think that if someone has misogynistic that if someone has misogynistic that if someone has misogynistic tendencies or control uh tendencies on a tendencies or control uh tendencies on a tendencies or control uh tendencies on a male side, they're going to gravitate male side, they're going to gravitate male side, they're going to gravitate and appreciate a complimentarian view and appreciate a complimentarian view and appreciate a complimentarian view better. I would also say that if you are better. I would also say that if you are better. I would also say that if you are if we have a woman who tends to migrate if we have a woman who tends to migrate if we have a woman who tends to migrate to control or want dominance, she's to control or want dominance, she's to control or want dominance, she's going to migrate to an egalitarian view. going to migrate to an egalitarian view. going to migrate to an egalitarian view. So I don't think the viewpoints have So I don't think the viewpoints have So I don't think the viewpoints have that. I don't think the cultures create that. I don't think the cultures create that. I don't think the cultures create that. I do think people self- select in that. I do think people self- select in that. I do think people self- select in the environment that fits who they feel the environment that fits who they feel the environment that fits who they feel called to be. And so we tend to see that called to be. And so we tend to see that called to be. And so we tend to see that show up in the people we know and it's show up in the people we know and it's show up in the people we know and it's easy to make that assumption. easy to make that assumption. easy to make that assumption. >> Well, I think it's important to say as >> Well, I think it's important to say as >> Well, I think it's important to say as well that women have a variety of well that women have a variety of well that women have a variety of viewpoints on complimentarianism versus viewpoints on complimentarianism versus viewpoints on complimentarianism versus egalitarianism. Right? There are and I I egalitarianism. Right? There are and I I egalitarianism. Right? There are and I I don't want to put words in your mouth don't want to put words in your mouth don't want to put words in your mouth but um there appear to be sizable but um there appear to be sizable but um there appear to be sizable numbers of women who are very numbers of women who are very numbers of women who are very comfortable and actually align with a comfortable and actually align with a comfortable and actually align with a complimentarian view. Is that correct?

complimentarian view. Is that correct? complimentarian view. Is that correct? What what are you seeing? What what are you seeing? What what are you seeing? >> Absolutely. I don't uh otherwise we'd >> Absolutely. I don't uh otherwise we'd >> Absolutely. I don't uh otherwise we'd have a whole bunch of churches that are have a whole bunch of churches that are have a whole bunch of churches that are all women on one side and men on the all women on one side and men on the all women on one side and men on the other. [laughter] other. [laughter] other. [laughter] >> That's not how it works at all. And I >> That's not how it works at all. And I >> That's not how it works at all. And I think one of the most confusing things think one of the most confusing things think one of the most confusing things is the fact that women disagree about is the fact that women disagree about is the fact that women disagree about this and have very strong biblical this and have very strong biblical this and have very strong biblical views. And especially in my generation, views. And especially in my generation, views. And especially in my generation, I'm smack in the middle of Gen uh X. Uh I'm smack in the middle of Gen uh X. Uh I'm smack in the middle of Gen uh X. Uh we have oftenimes grown up for women who we have oftenimes grown up for women who we have oftenimes grown up for women who have been in the church a long time and have been in the church a long time and have been in the church a long time and in the Christian faith for decades. in the Christian faith for decades. in the Christian faith for decades. We've been in ministry uh women's We've been in ministry uh women's We've been in ministry uh women's ministry and Bible studies and you know, ministry and Bible studies and you know, ministry and Bible studies and you know, we've done Kauor and all the all the we've done Kauor and all the all the we've done Kauor and all the all the studies that put us in God's word and we studies that put us in God's word and we studies that put us in God's word and we can have really strong doctrinal debates can have really strong doctrinal debates can have really strong doctrinal debates about this and vehemently disagree about about this and vehemently disagree about about this and vehemently disagree about it. Um, but for women it tends to be a it. Um, but for women it tends to be a it. Um, but for women it tends to be a much more personal issue than for men much more personal issue than for men much more personal issue than for men because it greatly affects our because it greatly affects our because it greatly affects our understanding of who we are, where we understanding of who we are, where we understanding of who we are, where we fit in the kingdom, the gifts that God fit in the kingdom, the gifts that God fit in the kingdom, the gifts that God has given us, what calling really looks has given us, what calling really looks has given us, what calling really looks like. Uh, you can't really separate like. Uh, you can't really separate like. Uh, you can't really separate either the role of being wife and mom as either the role of being wife and mom as either the role of being wife and mom as a primary identity from that a primary identity from that a primary identity from that conversation either. So all of that is conversation either. So all of that is conversation either. So all of that is really personal for women. So it's much really personal for women. So it's much really personal for women. So it's much deeper. It's much more emotional. It's deeper. It's much more emotional. It's deeper. It's much more emotional. It's has a lot of passion uh behind it has a lot of passion uh behind it has a lot of passion uh behind it because it changes the way we view because it changes the way we view because it changes the way we view ourselves and what God has called us to.

ourselves and what God has called us to. ourselves and what God has called us to. >> So let's talk about the way this shows >> So let's talk about the way this shows >> So let's talk about the way this shows up practically in a way a lot of people up practically in a way a lot of people up practically in a way a lot of people who maybe didn't go to seminary would who maybe didn't go to seminary would who maybe didn't go to seminary would recognize. So you end up in churches and recognize. So you end up in churches and recognize. So you end up in churches and I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just this I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just this I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just this is just all for background as we get is just all for background as we get is just all for background as we get into the conversation into the conversation into the conversation >> where women for example might be able to >> where women for example might be able to >> where women for example might be able to teach but not preach. they might be able teach but not preach. they might be able teach but not preach. they might be able to be interviewed or they could do a to be interviewed or they could do a to be interviewed or they could do a Mother's Day message but they can't Mother's Day message but they can't Mother's Day message but they can't preach a sermon. Do you end up with preach a sermon. Do you end up with preach a sermon. Do you end up with distinctions like that? Like what are distinctions like that? Like what are distinctions like that? Like what are some of the I guess the practical some of the I guess the practical some of the I guess the practical manifestations that you've seen of a manifestations that you've seen of a manifestations that you've seen of a complimentarian view and some of the complimentarian view and some of the complimentarian view and some of the distinctions or the lines that get drawn distinctions or the lines that get drawn distinctions or the lines that get drawn in the church? in the church? in the church? >> Well, I think some of those things uh >> Well, I think some of those things uh >> Well, I think some of those things uh are the result of just congregations and are the result of just congregations and are the result of just congregations and leaders creating workarounds. [laughter] leaders creating workarounds. [laughter] leaders creating workarounds. [laughter] >> Okay. Have And that's one of the reasons >> Okay. Have And that's one of the reasons >> Okay. Have And that's one of the reasons why I say the way this plays out is why I say the way this plays out is why I say the way this plays out is really more along a spectrum. really more along a spectrum. really more along a spectrum. >> It is a spectrum. >> It is a spectrum. >> It is a spectrum. >> Yeah. I like to say there's, you know, >> Yeah. I like to say there's, you know, >> Yeah. I like to say there's, you know, really strong um uh complimentarian and really strong um uh complimentarian and really strong um uh complimentarian and egalitarian views. There's mild and egalitarian views. There's mild and egalitarian views. There's mild and there's u moderate. And so those mild there's u moderate. And so those mild there's u moderate. And so those mild views tend to overlap a lot. And so you views tend to overlap a lot. And so you views tend to overlap a lot. And so you may see see things in a church. This is may see see things in a church. This is may see see things in a church. This is actually really common. And I think most actually really common. And I think most actually really common. And I think most churches have been shifting at least in churches have been shifting at least in churches have been shifting at least in practice if not full theological practice if not full theological practice if not full theological viewpoints to the middle where we may uh viewpoints to the middle where we may uh viewpoints to the middle where we may uh say things like we reserve elders and say things like we reserve elders and say things like we reserve elders and senior pastor role for men uh but we senior pastor role for men uh but we senior pastor role for men uh but we will allow women to hold the title will allow women to hold the title will allow women to hold the title pastor or we will let them lead in these pastor or we will let them lead in these pastor or we will let them lead in these certain ways. Um and part of that is be

certain ways. Um and part of that is be certain ways. Um and part of that is be or like you said the classic on mother's or like you said the classic on mother's or like you said the classic on mother's day that's a day we let a woman preach day that's a day we let a woman preach day that's a day we let a woman preach because it's about motherhood. Um, I because it's about motherhood. Um, I because it's about motherhood. Um, I always like to challenge people to think always like to challenge people to think always like to challenge people to think if the roles were reversed and we wanted if the roles were reversed and we wanted if the roles were reversed and we wanted to um only use men on male days, we'd to um only use men on male days, we'd to um only use men on male days, we'd have a Father's Day sermon, they'd be have a Father's Day sermon, they'd be have a Father's Day sermon, they'd be allowed to like shovel the snow and allowed to like shovel the snow and allowed to like shovel the snow and maybe like I don't know uh you know maybe like I don't know uh you know maybe like I don't know uh you know something manly, clear the deck after something manly, clear the deck after something manly, clear the deck after the winter storms or something like I the winter storms or something like I the winter storms or something like I don't know what it would be, but uh we don't know what it would be, but uh we don't know what it would be, but uh we tend to fall into those kind of like tend to fall into those kind of like tend to fall into those kind of like genderbased roles. Um, and that is genderbased roles. Um, and that is genderbased roles. Um, and that is really where we start to see the really where we start to see the really where we start to see the dissonance between my church says this dissonance between my church says this dissonance between my church says this about my theology, but I see this in about my theology, but I see this in about my theology, but I see this in action. Another area that gets really action. Another area that gets really action. Another area that gets really confusing is pastor's wives because confusing is pastor's wives because confusing is pastor's wives because women are now allowed to do certain women are now allowed to do certain women are now allowed to do certain things. Unless you're married to a things. Unless you're married to a things. Unless you're married to a pastor now, you can do these things or pastor now, you can do these things or pastor now, you can do these things or you get to be on stage or we now will you get to be on stage or we now will you get to be on stage or we now will call you something that's different. Um, call you something that's different. Um, call you something that's different. Um, and so for women in the congregation, it and so for women in the congregation, it and so for women in the congregation, it starts to be very confusing. It feels starts to be very confusing. It feels starts to be very confusing. It feels more inclusive. It feels like we're more inclusive. It feels like we're more inclusive. It feels like we're letting women do more things, but when letting women do more things, but when letting women do more things, but when it's attached to certain gender roles, it's attached to certain gender roles, it's attached to certain gender roles, it's not really as empowering as it it's not really as empowering as it it's not really as empowering as it might seem to the men who are making might seem to the men who are making might seem to the men who are making those efforts.

those efforts. those efforts. >> Has there been a shift in the last 20 or >> Has there been a shift in the last 20 or >> Has there been a shift in the last 20 or 30 years toward more churches and more 30 years toward more churches and more 30 years toward more churches and more leaders embracing either the middle or leaders embracing either the middle or leaders embracing either the middle or egalitarianism? egalitarianism? egalitarianism? I mean, again, we're sitting here with I mean, again, we're sitting here with I mean, again, we're sitting here with not a lot of data. We're just having not a lot of data. We're just having not a lot of data. We're just having this conversation, but I'm curious this conversation, but I'm curious this conversation, but I'm curious because this is an issue that's really because this is an issue that's really because this is an issue that's really close to your heart. You've written on close to your heart. You've written on close to your heart. You've written on it. I think you've written extremely it. I think you've written extremely it. I think you've written extremely well on this topic. So, uh, is that well on this topic. So, uh, is that well on this topic. So, uh, is that something I'm perceiving that isn't something I'm perceiving that isn't something I'm perceiving that isn't happening or are you seeing the same happening or are you seeing the same happening or are you seeing the same thing? thing? thing? >> I'm definitely seeing the same thing. >> I'm definitely seeing the same thing. >> I'm definitely seeing the same thing. What what I'm seeing more intentionally What what I'm seeing more intentionally What what I'm seeing more intentionally is that in practice, and part of this is is that in practice, and part of this is is that in practice, and part of this is a result of our culture, um, lives of a result of our culture, um, lives of a result of our culture, um, lives of women are changing over the last 30 women are changing over the last 30 women are changing over the last 30 years. Women are becoming fully years. Women are becoming fully years. Women are becoming fully educated. Uh, they're delaying uh, educated. Uh, they're delaying uh, educated. Uh, they're delaying uh, marriage and parenthood. So now you've marriage and parenthood. So now you've marriage and parenthood. So now you've got women who are, you know, well into got women who are, you know, well into got women who are, you know, well into their early to mid30s. That's a, you their early to mid30s. That's a, you their early to mid30s. That's a, you know, that's a good 10 to 15 year spread know, that's a good 10 to 15 year spread know, that's a good 10 to 15 year spread of freedom to do ministry and lead in of freedom to do ministry and lead in of freedom to do ministry and lead in the church that we've never really seen the church that we've never really seen the church that we've never really seen before. And so these women are growing before. And so these women are growing before. And so these women are growing in leadership. They're growing in in leadership. They're growing in in leadership. They're growing in capacity. They have university degrees capacity. They have university degrees capacity. They have university degrees or graduate degrees that they're or graduate degrees that they're or graduate degrees that they're bringing into ministry. And pastors are bringing into ministry. And pastors are bringing into ministry. And pastors are seeing their capacity and seeing the seeing their capacity and seeing the seeing their capacity and seeing the fruit of their leadership and giving fruit of their leadership and giving fruit of their leadership and giving them leadership. it's causing them to them leadership. it's causing them to them leadership. it's causing them to question why is our view so staunch on question why is our view so staunch on question why is our view so staunch on this or why is our the way we describe this or why is our the way we describe this or why is our the way we describe it or why do we have these limits let's it or why do we have these limits let's it or why do we have these limits let's reook at how we're thinking about this reook at how we're thinking about this reook at how we're thinking about this and that's where you see a lot of kind and that's where you see a lot of kind and that's where you see a lot of kind of changes around uh titles that we use of changes around uh titles that we use of changes around uh titles that we use uh expectations staff roles being uh expectations staff roles being uh expectations staff roles being offered um I think also uh a lot of men

offered um I think also uh a lot of men offered um I think also uh a lot of men have wives who are now empty nesters and have wives who are now empty nesters and have wives who are now empty nesters and are ready to lead and they're capable of are ready to lead and they're capable of are ready to lead and they're capable of leading and they've been leading and leading and they've been leading and leading and they've been leading and they would like the title and they would they would like the title and they would they would like the title and they would like a paycheck for their contribution like a paycheck for their contribution like a paycheck for their contribution and they value that. They see it from and they value that. They see it from and they value that. They see it from the inside. Their daughters are coming the inside. Their daughters are coming the inside. Their daughters are coming of age and they're looking at their dad of age and they're looking at their dad of age and they're looking at their dad and they're like, "Hey, I have a and they're like, "Hey, I have a and they're like, "Hey, I have a ministry degree from college, but it ministry degree from college, but it ministry degree from college, but it seems like this isn't the place for me seems like this isn't the place for me seems like this isn't the place for me to serve. Do I need to go down to the to serve. Do I need to go down to the to serve. Do I need to go down to the the church down the street or dad, do the church down the street or dad, do the church down the street or dad, do you have a place for me here?" And so, you have a place for me here?" And so, you have a place for me here?" And so, it's challenging pastors to rethink um it's challenging pastors to rethink um it's challenging pastors to rethink um maybe not necessarily, you know, the maybe not necessarily, you know, the maybe not necessarily, you know, the white paper or their bylaws, but white paper or their bylaws, but white paper or their bylaws, but definitely how it plays out in their definitely how it plays out in their definitely how it plays out in their church. But then when it plays out church. But then when it plays out church. But then when it plays out differently, it does cause them to differently, it does cause them to differently, it does cause them to rethink their theological view. So I rethink their theological view. So I rethink their theological view. So I wouldn't say every church is changing wouldn't say every church is changing wouldn't say every church is changing theology. I do think they're updating theology. I do think they're updating theology. I do think they're updating their practices. I do think they're their practices. I do think they're their practices. I do think they're clarifying their theology around what clarifying their theology around what clarifying their theology around what that actually is and are we as strong that actually is and are we as strong that actually is and are we as strong and black and white about that as when and black and white about that as when and black and white about that as when our church was founded 50 years ago. Is our church was founded 50 years ago. Is our church was founded 50 years ago. Is there more room for more women? Um and there more room for more women? Um and there more room for more women? Um and then how do we really want to empower then how do we really want to empower then how do we really want to empower women and make sure we're using all the women and make sure we're using all the women and make sure we're using all the resources God has brought to our church?

resources God has brought to our church? resources God has brought to our church? Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion International. So, as Jesus Compassion International. So, as Jesus Compassion International. So, as Jesus looked at the crowd of 5,000, he had looked at the crowd of 5,000, he had looked at the crowd of 5,000, he had compassion on them. He actually healed compassion on them. He actually healed compassion on them. He actually healed them. He fed them. And the text tells us them. He fed them. And the text tells us them. He fed them. And the text tells us that Jesus was moved with compassion. that Jesus was moved with compassion. that Jesus was moved with compassion. Like this deep gut sense of this isn't Like this deep gut sense of this isn't Like this deep gut sense of this isn't right. I'm going to make it right. You right. I'm going to make it right. You right. I'm going to make it right. You know, compassion changes the way we know, compassion changes the way we know, compassion changes the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we show up for others. It changes the way show up for others. It changes the way show up for others. It changes the way our churches grow and the legacy we our churches grow and the legacy we our churches grow and the legacy we leave behind uh will actually change leave behind uh will actually change leave behind uh will actually change because we had compassion because a because we had compassion because a because we had compassion because a posture of compassion, a heart geared posture of compassion, a heart geared posture of compassion, a heart geared toward others actually changes toward others actually changes toward others actually changes everything. So the question becomes, everything. So the question becomes, everything. So the question becomes, what if you led, we led with that same what if you led, we led with that same what if you led, we led with that same posture? In partnering with global posture? In partnering with global posture? In partnering with global churches, Compassion International has churches, Compassion International has churches, Compassion International has been serving children for more than 70 been serving children for more than 70 been serving children for more than 70 years. and they've seen that in all years. and they've seen that in all years. and they've seen that in all aspects of ministry and all aspects of aspects of ministry and all aspects of aspects of ministry and all aspects of our lives when we lean into this our lives when we lean into this our lives when we lean into this posture, compassion changes everything. posture, compassion changes everything. posture, compassion changes everything. You can download free resources and You can download free resources and You can download free resources and learn more about how compassion changes learn more about how compassion changes learn more about how compassion changes everything at compassion.com/carry.

everything at compassion.com/carry. everything at compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. This episode is brought to you by Glue. This episode is brought to you by Glue. This episode is brought to you by Glue. So ministry leaders, you're called to So ministry leaders, you're called to So ministry leaders, you're called to serve, to connect, and to change the serve, to connect, and to change the serve, to connect, and to change the world. But doing that often means world. But doing that often means world. But doing that often means fighting technology that wasn't really fighting technology that wasn't really fighting technology that wasn't really designed for your mission. That's why designed for your mission. That's why designed for your mission. That's why Glue is here to build a trusted Glue is here to build a trusted Glue is here to build a trusted technology platform that serves the technology platform that serves the technology platform that serves the faith ecosystem. Glue is transforming faith ecosystem. Glue is transforming faith ecosystem. Glue is transforming how you lead by providing a complete how you lead by providing a complete how you lead by providing a complete platform of values aligned tools and platform of values aligned tools and platform of values aligned tools and technology that help churches understand technology that help churches understand technology that help churches understand and connect with congregants, reach new and connect with congregants, reach new and connect with congregants, reach new people, and engage them in compelling people, and engage them in compelling people, and engage them in compelling ways. With solutions like Glue Workspace ways. With solutions like Glue Workspace ways. With solutions like Glue Workspace where ministry leaders get work done and where ministry leaders get work done and where ministry leaders get work done and partners like Igniter Media, Bara, partners like Igniter Media, Bara, partners like Igniter Media, Bara, Visitor Reach, and Outreach, Glue is Visitor Reach, and Outreach, Glue is Visitor Reach, and Outreach, Glue is providing the digital backbone for the providing the digital backbone for the providing the digital backbone for the faith ecosystem, equipping your church, faith ecosystem, equipping your church, faith ecosystem, equipping your church, ministry, and individuals to thrive in a ministry, and individuals to thrive in a ministry, and individuals to thrive in a digital age. To learn more about how digital age. To learn more about how digital age. To learn more about how Glue can help you do more of what you're Glue can help you do more of what you're Glue can help you do more of what you're already called to do, simply text my already called to do, simply text my already called to do, simply text my name, Carrie, to 46816. That's c a r e y name, Carrie, to 46816. That's c a r e y name, Carrie, to 46816. That's c a r e y to 46816.

to 46816. to 46816. Yeah, I actually have a couple of people Yeah, I actually have a couple of people Yeah, I actually have a couple of people I know who are shifting their views from I know who are shifting their views from I know who are shifting their views from strict complimentarianism to something strict complimentarianism to something strict complimentarianism to something closer to the middle or egalitarianism. closer to the middle or egalitarianism. closer to the middle or egalitarianism. We actually have Preston Sprinkle coming We actually have Preston Sprinkle coming We actually have Preston Sprinkle coming up on the podcast. He's got a new book up on the podcast. He's got a new book up on the podcast. He's got a new book where I think he's rethought his view where I think he's rethought his view where I think he's rethought his view around women in ministry. So, it is a around women in ministry. So, it is a around women in ministry. So, it is a very interesting topic and it's one very interesting topic and it's one very interesting topic and it's one that's really res resonating with the that's really res resonating with the that's really res resonating with the leaders of this who listen to this leaders of this who listen to this leaders of this who listen to this podcast, the people who are in the podcast, the people who are in the podcast, the people who are in the academy. We're hearing about it all the academy. We're hearing about it all the academy. We're hearing about it all the time. Before we get there, there's one time. Before we get there, there's one time. Before we get there, there's one more thing that I'm increasingly more thing that I'm increasingly more thing that I'm increasingly curious about. So, you know, Beth Moore curious about. So, you know, Beth Moore curious about. So, you know, Beth Moore is on the podcast soon or was just on is on the podcast soon or was just on is on the podcast soon or was just on depending on when this airs and you depending on when this airs and you depending on when this airs and you know, Anne Voscamp, good friend. You know, Anne Voscamp, good friend. You know, Anne Voscamp, good friend. You look at um a generation of women who look at um a generation of women who look at um a generation of women who like Lisa Turkers like Lisa Turkers like Lisa Turkers >> couldn't teach at their church because >> couldn't teach at their church because >> couldn't teach at their church because it was 20 years ago when they were it was 20 years ago when they were it was 20 years ago when they were starting out or 30 years ago or 40 years starting out or 30 years ago or 40 years starting out or 30 years ago or 40 years ago. So, you're allowed to do a Bible ago. So, you're allowed to do a Bible ago. So, you're allowed to do a Bible study, not allowed to get onto the study, not allowed to get onto the study, not allowed to get onto the platform or the pulpit. [snorts] But platform or the pulpit. [snorts] But platform or the pulpit. [snorts] But then you also see a number of next then you also see a number of next then you also see a number of next generation leaders, you know, just to generation leaders, you know, just to generation leaders, you know, just to name a few, Sadi Robertson Huff, uh name a few, Sadi Robertson Huff, uh name a few, Sadi Robertson Huff, uh you've got, you know, uh Madison Trout you've got, you know, uh Madison Trout you've got, you know, uh Madison Trout Puit or Puit Trout or whatever. You got Puit or Puit Trout or whatever. You got Puit or Puit Trout or whatever. You got a lot of younger nextgen leaders who um a lot of younger nextgen leaders who um a lot of younger nextgen leaders who um Girls Gone Bible, I mean, they've Girls Gone Bible, I mean, they've Girls Gone Bible, I mean, they've terribly cobble. They are. And I'm not terribly cobble. They are. And I'm not terribly cobble. They are. And I'm not saying they wouldn't work at a church, saying they wouldn't work at a church, saying they wouldn't work at a church, but they don't work at a church. And but they don't work at a church. And but they don't work at a church. And they've got this massive platform. Jenny they've got this massive platform. Jenny they've got this massive platform. Jenny Allen's another one, you know. So Beth,

Allen's another one, you know. So Beth, Allen's another one, you know. So Beth, uh, Ann, Jenny Allen, and so on and so uh, Ann, Jenny Allen, and so on and so uh, Ann, Jenny Allen, and so on and so forth. And they have this huge platform. forth. And they have this huge platform. forth. And they have this huge platform. Like leaders are like, I had 2,000 Like leaders are like, I had 2,000 Like leaders are like, I had 2,000 people at our church. I'm like, you people at our church. I'm like, you people at our church. I'm like, you know, they get they get 2,000 people to know, they get they get 2,000 people to know, they get they get 2,000 people to respond to an email. Like it's crazy to respond to an email. Like it's crazy to respond to an email. Like it's crazy to see the influence that some of these see the influence that some of these see the influence that some of these female leaders have. And one of the female leaders have. And one of the female leaders have. And one of the questions I'm asking is, are they doing questions I'm asking is, are they doing questions I'm asking is, are they doing it because there is still no room at the it because there is still no room at the it because there is still no room at the church or is this just the way to go? church or is this just the way to go? church or is this just the way to go? Any thoughts on that at all? Cuz I think Any thoughts on that at all? Cuz I think Any thoughts on that at all? Cuz I think about the talent involved that we're about the talent involved that we're about the talent involved that we're maybe just leaving on the table maybe just leaving on the table maybe just leaving on the table >> as church leaders. I don't know. What do >> as church leaders. I don't know. What do >> as church leaders. I don't know. What do you think? you think? you think? >> I am a diehard local church girl. Like >> I am a diehard local church girl. Like >> I am a diehard local church girl. Like this is my passion. It changed my life. this is my passion. It changed my life. this is my passion. It changed my life. I want to help it be the best it can be I want to help it be the best it can be I want to help it be the best it can be to change other people's lives and to to change other people's lives and to to change other people's lives and to live out what Jesus commanded us and the live out what Jesus commanded us and the live out what Jesus commanded us and the gift that the body of Christ is to us in gift that the body of Christ is to us in gift that the body of Christ is to us in local expression and 100% leadership local expression and 100% leadership local expression and 100% leadership gifting and calling and particularly gifting and calling and particularly gifting and calling and particularly those people you just talked about in my those people you just talked about in my those people you just talked about in my opinion have a real pastoral anointing. opinion have a real pastoral anointing. opinion have a real pastoral anointing. They are gathering people together and They are gathering people together and They are gathering people together and pastoring them towards the Lord. That uh pastoring them towards the Lord. That uh pastoring them towards the Lord. That uh calling will not go away if it's not calling will not go away if it's not calling will not go away if it's not utilized in the church. it will just utilized in the church. it will just utilized in the church. it will just relocate. And the older [clears throat] relocate. And the older [clears throat] relocate. And the older [clears throat] someone is, the more you will see them someone is, the more you will see them someone is, the more you will see them have a story. Beth Moore talks about it have a story. Beth Moore talks about it have a story. Beth Moore talks about it in her book of being um and I wouldn't in her book of being um and I wouldn't in her book of being um and I wouldn't even say women were frustrated by it.

even say women were frustrated by it. even say women were frustrated by it. They were just clear about the reality They were just clear about the reality They were just clear about the reality that this isn't something this calling that this isn't something this calling that this isn't something this calling that God's given me isn't something that that God's given me isn't something that that God's given me isn't something that has space for me in the church. And so has space for me in the church. And so has space for me in the church. And so they took that elsewhere. They're going they took that elsewhere. They're going they took that elsewhere. They're going to obey the calling and walk through the to obey the calling and walk through the to obey the calling and walk through the doors that God opens them. And it's been doors that God opens them. And it's been doors that God opens them. And it's been incredibly fruitful. I do wonder how incredibly fruitful. I do wonder how incredibly fruitful. I do wonder how that would have changed had they been that would have changed had they been that would have changed had they been given platform in their local church. given platform in their local church. given platform in their local church. What would have been different? What would have been different? What would have been different? [clears throat] Not only there, but in [clears throat] Not only there, but in [clears throat] Not only there, but in churches everywhere. Um, but God still churches everywhere. Um, but God still churches everywhere. Um, but God still used that. And I think most women that I used that. And I think most women that I used that. And I think most women that I know know know >> who have had that experience, I would >> who have had that experience, I would >> who have had that experience, I would say I'm probably one of those, even say I'm probably one of those, even say I'm probably one of those, even though I've stayed in ministry, I look though I've stayed in ministry, I look though I've stayed in ministry, I look back now in my mid-50s and I'm like, back now in my mid-50s and I'm like, back now in my mid-50s and I'm like, "Oh, dang." I think of myself at 22. I "Oh, dang." I think of myself at 22. I "Oh, dang." I think of myself at 22. I probably had a preaching capacity that probably had a preaching capacity that probably had a preaching capacity that never got utilized. I probably could never got utilized. I probably could never got utilized. I probably could have led at much higher levels than I have led at much higher levels than I have led at much higher levels than I ever imagined. I spent most of my uh ever imagined. I spent most of my uh ever imagined. I spent most of my uh time particularly in full-time church time particularly in full-time church time particularly in full-time church ministry just kind of amazed I was doing ministry just kind of amazed I was doing ministry just kind of amazed I was doing what I was doing rather than having a what I was doing rather than having a what I was doing rather than having a vision for what God could be calling me vision for what God could be calling me vision for what God could be calling me to. And so uh the church right now is in to. And so uh the church right now is in to. And so uh the church right now is in a major disruption because those of us a major disruption because those of us a major disruption because those of us who uh you know kind of had that route who uh you know kind of had that route who uh you know kind of had that route and have sort of made a way in a new and have sort of made a way in a new and have sort of made a way in a new way, this next generation of women, way, this next generation of women, way, this next generation of women, they're just bypassing it. uh you know they're just bypassing it. uh you know they're just bypassing it. uh you know we're like we're going through like the we're like we're going through like the we're like we're going through like the Uber or I just watched a whole news Uber or I just watched a whole news Uber or I just watched a whole news article on the disruption of the pizza article on the disruption of the pizza article on the disruption of the pizza industry because pizza used to have the industry because pizza used to have the industry because pizza used to have the market on delivery. They were the only market on delivery. They were the only market on delivery. They were the only food that got delivered. Now every food food that got delivered. Now every food food that got delivered. Now every food is delivered and so the pizza industry is delivered and so the pizza industry is delivered and so the pizza industry is crumbling around that. So that's is crumbling around that. So that's is crumbling around that. So that's what's happening to us to have a what's happening to us to have a what's happening to us to have a platform or to be able to speak or to

platform or to be able to speak or to platform or to be able to speak or to share the gospel to share a testimony or share the gospel to share a testimony or share the gospel to share a testimony or uh you can even I'm even using girl uh you can even I'm even using girl uh you can even I'm even using girl language. I'm sharing not teaching not language. I'm sharing not teaching not language. I'm sharing not teaching not preaching but [laughter] preaching but [laughter] preaching but [laughter] >> right I'm sharing. I always laugh with >> right I'm sharing. I always laugh with >> right I'm sharing. I always laugh with my own bias as I still have against my own bias as I still have against my own bias as I still have against myself. Uh but you know it used to be myself. Uh but you know it used to be myself. Uh but you know it used to be you had to go through the authority of you had to go through the authority of you had to go through the authority of the local church to have any sort of the local church to have any sort of the local church to have any sort of endorsement. And now you just have to endorsement. And now you just have to endorsement. And now you just have to open an Instagram account or do a open an Instagram account or do a open an Instagram account or do a Facebook live. You can you can be on Facebook live. You can you can be on Facebook live. You can you can be on YouTube and do anything. And everyone's YouTube and do anything. And everyone's YouTube and do anything. And everyone's doing it. Women particularly are doing doing it. Women particularly are doing doing it. Women particularly are doing it. And so I get invited to way more it. And so I get invited to way more it. And so I get invited to way more women's Bible studies that have nothing women's Bible studies that have nothing women's Bible studies that have nothing to do with the local church than I ever to do with the local church than I ever to do with the local church than I ever get invited to things at my local get invited to things at my local get invited to things at my local church. So uh it's happening all over. church. So uh it's happening all over. church. So uh it's happening all over. It's one of the reasons women are It's one of the reasons women are It's one of the reasons women are disengaging from church is they don't disengaging from church is they don't disengaging from church is they don't need that platform anymore. And churches need that platform anymore. And churches need that platform anymore. And churches are wondering like what do we do? are wondering like what do we do? are wondering like what do we do? They've sold out to the culture and I'm They've sold out to the culture and I'm They've sold out to the culture and I'm like I don't think so. I think they're like I don't think so. I think they're like I don't think so. I think they're just stewarding their giftedness and just stewarding their giftedness and just stewarding their giftedness and their calling differently because they their calling differently because they their calling differently because they know they can. And that that changes know they can. And that that changes know they can. And that that changes everything for women and it changes a everything for women and it changes a everything for women and it changes a lot in the kingdom as we look forward.

lot in the kingdom as we look forward. lot in the kingdom as we look forward. >> Boy, there's so much there. And I want >> Boy, there's so much there. And I want >> Boy, there's so much there. And I want to say too in the list of names I to say too in the list of names I to say too in the list of names I mentioned, there might be some of the mentioned, there might be some of the mentioned, there might be some of the women I I don't know because I haven't women I I don't know because I haven't women I I don't know because I haven't really examined it in any detail who really examined it in any detail who really examined it in any detail who would say no, I'm complimentarian. So would say no, I'm complimentarian. So would say no, I'm complimentarian. So I'm doing this outside of the church for I'm doing this outside of the church for I'm doing this outside of the church for a reason. So I want to be respectful of a reason. So I want to be respectful of a reason. So I want to be respectful of that. But let's put your church hat on that. But let's put your church hat on that. But let's put your church hat on because you did serve as an executive because you did serve as an executive because you did serve as an executive pastor of a very very large church. You pastor of a very very large church. You pastor of a very very large church. You have served in the local church. If you have served in the local church. If you have served in the local church. If you were, and you're not today, but you're were, and you're not today, but you're were, and you're not today, but you're married to somebody who leads a local married to somebody who leads a local married to somebody who leads a local church. church. church. >> I know. I'm now a pastor's wife. So >> I know. I'm now a pastor's wife. So >> I know. I'm now a pastor's wife. So >> you're a pastor's wife. So there you go. >> you're a pastor's wife. So there you go. >> you're a pastor's wife. So there you go. rights and privileges, parking spots, rights and privileges, parking spots, rights and privileges, parking spots, all I'm kidding, not not all that all I'm kidding, not not all that all I'm kidding, not not all that [laughter] stuff. But if if you put your [laughter] stuff. But if if you put your [laughter] stuff. But if if you put your strategic hat on and you were like, "All strategic hat on and you were like, "All strategic hat on and you were like, "All right, how are we going to leverage the right, how are we going to leverage the right, how are we going to leverage the gift?" Because I'm guessing gift?" Because I'm guessing gift?" Because I'm guessing the majority of people who Yeah, you the majority of people who Yeah, you the majority of people who Yeah, you probably, you know, you don't have an probably, you know, you don't have an probably, you know, you don't have an Anvos camp or a Satie Robertson huff in Anvos camp or a Satie Robertson huff in Anvos camp or a Satie Robertson huff in your church. And all these people are your church. And all these people are your church. And all these people are committed to local church, by the way. committed to local church, by the way. committed to local church, by the way. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> But you probably have somebody who has >> But you probably have somebody who has >> But you probably have somebody who has like 5,000 Instagram followers or is like 5,000 Instagram followers or is like 5,000 Instagram followers or is blowing up on Tik Tok or someone who's blowing up on Tik Tok or someone who's blowing up on Tik Tok or someone who's got a YouTube channel and if you were got a YouTube channel and if you were got a YouTube channel and if you were looking at engaging women or somebody looking at engaging women or somebody looking at engaging women or somebody who just leads a Bible study and 300 who just leads a Bible study and 300 who just leads a Bible study and 300 women are showing up or 300 people are women are showing up or 300 people are women are showing up or 300 people are showing up. You've got someone like that showing up. You've got someone like that showing up. You've got someone like that in your church probably.

in your church probably. in your church probably. What do you do with that? How do you What do you do with that? How do you What do you do with that? How do you leverage that? What's your put your leverage that? What's your put your leverage that? What's your put your church leader hat on? What's your church leader hat on? What's your church leader hat on? What's your advice, Katie? advice, Katie? advice, Katie? >> Yeah. Well, I think there's uh always >> Yeah. Well, I think there's uh always >> Yeah. Well, I think there's uh always two things happening when it comes to two things happening when it comes to two things happening when it comes to using the people resources of our using the people resources of our using the people resources of our church. One is we have commands that church. One is we have commands that church. One is we have commands that every believer is supposed to do and every believer is supposed to do and every believer is supposed to do and it's our job in disciplehip and in it's our job in disciplehip and in it's our job in disciplehip and in leadership development to be moving leadership development to be moving leadership development to be moving people towards those. We're all supposed people towards those. We're all supposed people towards those. We're all supposed to be evangelists. We're all supposed to to be evangelists. We're all supposed to to be evangelists. We're all supposed to show hospitality. We're all supposed to show hospitality. We're all supposed to show hospitality. We're all supposed to love one another. We're all supposed to love one another. We're all supposed to love one another. We're all supposed to pray. We're all supposed to give. Like, pray. We're all supposed to give. Like, pray. We're all supposed to give. Like, we're all supposed to do all of those we're all supposed to do all of those we're all supposed to do all of those things. Have generosity. Uh but then things. Have generosity. Uh but then things. Have generosity. Uh but then there are God's anointings that stand there are God's anointings that stand there are God's anointings that stand outside the norm. Giftings that are outside the norm. Giftings that are outside the norm. Giftings that are unique to that person, anointings for a unique to that person, anointings for a unique to that person, anointings for a season. We have to steward those season. We have to steward those season. We have to steward those differently. And I think the tendency of differently. And I think the tendency of differently. And I think the tendency of most churches is to put all the people most churches is to put all the people most churches is to put all the people in one pipeline. And we don't have space in one pipeline. And we don't have space in one pipeline. And we don't have space for the outlier. And when the outlier for the outlier. And when the outlier for the outlier. And when the outlier comes in an unexpected package, a woman, comes in an unexpected package, a woman, comes in an unexpected package, a woman, a 15year-old, a 60-year-old, someone a 15year-old, a 60-year-old, someone a 15year-old, a 60-year-old, someone from a different cultural background, from a different cultural background, from a different cultural background, someone who's a different economic level someone who's a different economic level someone who's a different economic level than our target audience. When they come than our target audience. When they come than our target audience. When they come in a package unexpected, we don't really in a package unexpected, we don't really in a package unexpected, we don't really know how to steward that well because know how to steward that well because know how to steward that well because they don't fit in the pipeline. They they don't fit in the pipeline. They they don't fit in the pipeline. They break all the systems. We give them break all the systems. We give them break all the systems. We give them authority. They don't follow the rules.

authority. They don't follow the rules. authority. They don't follow the rules. They don't turn their visa receipt in on They don't turn their visa receipt in on They don't turn their visa receipt in on time. They're out like starting colleges time. They're out like starting colleges time. They're out like starting colleges and launching campuses. we find out and launching campuses. we find out and launching campuses. we find out about it four months later, like it about it four months later, like it about it four months later, like it irritates us and all of our systems. And irritates us and all of our systems. And irritates us and all of our systems. And so, uh, when we don't know how to so, uh, when we don't know how to so, uh, when we don't know how to steward anointing well, um, and we steward anointing well, um, and we steward anointing well, um, and we actually have to do both. We have to actually have to do both. We have to actually have to do both. We have to have the pipeline and we have to make have the pipeline and we have to make have the pipeline and we have to make space for the anointing. And sometimes space for the anointing. And sometimes space for the anointing. And sometimes anointing is seasonal. Sometimes someone anointing is seasonal. Sometimes someone anointing is seasonal. Sometimes someone came through the pipeline and then God came through the pipeline and then God came through the pipeline and then God does something or in the middle of it. does something or in the middle of it. does something or in the middle of it. And so I think part of what we have to And so I think part of what we have to And so I think part of what we have to do as leaders is hold a little bit more do as leaders is hold a little bit more do as leaders is hold a little bit more open-handedly the spontaneity of the open-handedly the spontaneity of the open-handedly the spontaneity of the Lord so that even as we build systems Lord so that even as we build systems Lord so that even as we build systems and a lot of times the bigger we grow and a lot of times the bigger we grow and a lot of times the bigger we grow the more systemsoriented we become we the more systemsoriented we become we the more systemsoriented we become we lose the entrepreneurial edge that lose the entrepreneurial edge that lose the entrepreneurial edge that allows us to have explosive expansion in allows us to have explosive expansion in allows us to have explosive expansion in a way that God designed for us to do it. a way that God designed for us to do it. a way that God designed for us to do it. But we have to know how to fuel it. We But we have to know how to fuel it. We But we have to know how to fuel it. We have to know how to corral it. We have have to know how to corral it. We have have to know how to corral it. We have to know what guard rails to do and which to know what guard rails to do and which to know what guard rails to do and which ones don't matter. and it almost never ones don't matter. and it almost never ones don't matter. and it almost never matches the HR policy book that we have matches the HR policy book that we have matches the HR policy book that we have been working on for the last three years been working on for the last three years been working on for the last three years and is now finally online. So, as the and is now finally online. So, as the and is now finally online. So, as the person who wrote the HR book, [laughter] person who wrote the HR book, [laughter] person who wrote the HR book, [laughter] that's one of my hardest lessons in that's one of my hardest lessons in that's one of my hardest lessons in leadership is I could administrate the leadership is I could administrate the leadership is I could administrate the anointing out of any service, out of any anointing out of any service, out of any anointing out of any service, out of any ministry, out of any leader. I was I ministry, out of any leader. I was I ministry, out of any leader. I was I could just organize it to death. And it could just organize it to death. And it could just organize it to death. And it was in my I mean I was in my late 20s was in my I mean I was in my late 20s was in my I mean I was in my late 20s when I started to realize I am actually when I started to realize I am actually when I started to realize I am actually creating more harm. I think I'm the creating more harm. I think I'm the creating more harm. I think I'm the answer to this disorganized mess. I answer to this disorganized mess. I answer to this disorganized mess. I actually can kill it if I'm not careful.

actually can kill it if I'm not careful. actually can kill it if I'm not careful. And the bigger we grow, the more we hire And the bigger we grow, the more we hire And the bigger we grow, the more we hire people gifted like me and we organize people gifted like me and we organize people gifted like me and we organize the momentum out of what God is doing. the momentum out of what God is doing. the momentum out of what God is doing. >> That is so well said. I think one of the >> That is so well said. I think one of the >> That is so well said. I think one of the challenges is we have categories as challenges is we have categories as challenges is we have categories as pastors and most of us are doing the pastors and most of us are doing the pastors and most of us are doing the best we can with what we have and it's best we can with what we have and it's best we can with what we have and it's like great, you can greet, you can do like great, you can greet, you can do like great, you can greet, you can do this. So if let's say you have an this. So if let's say you have an this. So if let's say you have an 18-year-old who's big on YouTube, 18-year-old who's big on YouTube, 18-year-old who's big on YouTube, channel's blowing up. It's a woman, a channel's blowing up. It's a woman, a channel's blowing up. It's a woman, a girl, college student almost. girl, college student almost. girl, college student almost. You're her leader. What do you do with You're her leader. What do you do with You're her leader. What do you do with her? Because my joke has been, we'll get her? Because my joke has been, we'll get her? Because my joke has been, we'll get her to run uh proresenter. [laughter] her to run uh proresenter. [laughter] her to run uh proresenter. [laughter] That's what we'll do. Right. You're That's what we'll do. Right. You're That's what we'll do. Right. You're you're techy. You're techie. Just come you're techy. You're techie. Just come you're techy. You're techie. Just come here and make our proresenter better. here and make our proresenter better. here and make our proresenter better. >> If it's a girl, you're going to put her >> If it's a girl, you're going to put her >> If it's a girl, you're going to put her in charge of communications. If it's a in charge of communications. If it's a in charge of communications. If it's a guy, he goes to the AV booth. That's how guy, he goes to the AV booth. That's how guy, he goes to the AV booth. That's how it works. it works. it works. >> Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. You run our >> Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. You run our >> Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. You run our social media and the guy will run social media and the guy will run social media and the guy will run propresenter. [laughter] Yeah. Okay. But propresenter. [laughter] Yeah. Okay. But propresenter. [laughter] Yeah. Okay. But what to really that doesn't totally tap what to really that doesn't totally tap what to really that doesn't totally tap into the gifting. So if you're going to into the gifting. So if you're going to into the gifting. So if you're going to tap into the anointing, what do you do? tap into the anointing, what do you do? tap into the anointing, what do you do? >> I think part of what we're talking about >> I think part of what we're talking about >> I think part of what we're talking about particularly with that example is we're particularly with that example is we're particularly with that example is we're talking about kingdom influence. That if talking about kingdom influence. That if talking about kingdom influence. That if we look at our ministry as leaders of a we look at our ministry as leaders of a we look at our ministry as leaders of a church as to how do we get people to church as to how do we get people to church as to how do we get people to help us achieve our mission rather than help us achieve our mission rather than help us achieve our mission rather than remembering that these people God brings remembering that these people God brings remembering that these people God brings us are our mission and our mission is to us are our mission and our mission is to us are our mission and our mission is to accelerate their calling. So, if I have accelerate their calling. So, if I have accelerate their calling. So, if I have a different viewpoint, I need to a different viewpoint, I need to a different viewpoint, I need to actually pastor a young woman with that actually pastor a young woman with that actually pastor a young woman with that kind of influence way differently than I kind of influence way differently than I kind of influence way differently than I pastor everyone else. We've kind of pastor everyone else. We've kind of pastor everyone else. We've kind of gotten better at this, I think, around gotten better at this, I think, around gotten better at this, I think, around giving and people with the gift of giving and people with the gift of giving and people with the gift of generosity. That a person who can

generosity. That a person who can generosity. That a person who can [clears throat] make a million-dollar [clears throat] make a million-dollar [clears throat] make a million-dollar gift every couple years needs a gift every couple years needs a gift every couple years needs a different kind of pastor than someone different kind of pastor than someone different kind of pastor than someone who's living paycheck to paycheck, you who's living paycheck to paycheck, you who's living paycheck to paycheck, you know, and is tithing regularly. We don't know, and is tithing regularly. We don't know, and is tithing regularly. We don't demand the same requirements of him. the demand the same requirements of him. the demand the same requirements of him. the senior pastor goes and has lunch with senior pastor goes and has lunch with senior pastor goes and has lunch with him, you know, every couple months to him, you know, every couple months to him, you know, every couple months to keep to pastor him differently. That keep to pastor him differently. That keep to pastor him differently. That needs to happen for this. Those are the needs to happen for this. Those are the needs to happen for this. Those are the outliers. And so instead of saying, "Oh outliers. And so instead of saying, "Oh outliers. And so instead of saying, "Oh my gosh, Lord, thank you for bringing my gosh, Lord, thank you for bringing my gosh, Lord, thank you for bringing someone with this much influence. How do someone with this much influence. How do someone with this much influence. How do I leverage that for our ministry? How do I leverage that for our ministry? How do I leverage that for our ministry? How do I help her bring those people to our I help her bring those people to our I help her bring those people to our young adults thing we're trying to kick young adults thing we're trying to kick young adults thing we're trying to kick off next month?" Instead, going, "What off next month?" Instead, going, "What off next month?" Instead, going, "What does she need to steward this to be the does she need to steward this to be the does she need to steward this to be the most effective in the kingdom? How do I most effective in the kingdom? How do I most effective in the kingdom? How do I make sure she doesn't break down and end make sure she doesn't break down and end make sure she doesn't break down and end up in a ball in her bathroom 3 months up in a ball in her bathroom 3 months up in a ball in her bathroom 3 months from now from the pressure and the from now from the pressure and the from now from the pressure and the negative comments? How do I help her negative comments? How do I help her negative comments? How do I help her know her identity is in Christ? And how know her identity is in Christ? And how know her identity is in Christ? And how do I put the right people around her, do I put the right people around her, do I put the right people around her, which by the way are not a bunch of which by the way are not a bunch of which by the way are not a bunch of middle-aged pastor's wives who have middle-aged pastor's wives who have middle-aged pastor's wives who have never been on the internet? Like that's never been on the internet? Like that's never been on the internet? Like that's not who she needs. She needs leaders. not who she needs. She needs leaders. not who she needs. She needs leaders. She needs influence. You probably know She needs influence. You probably know She needs influence. You probably know people who have huge internet, you know, people who have huge internet, you know, people who have huge internet, you know, thing or call Carrie and find out who he thing or call Carrie and find out who he thing or call Carrie and find out who he knows that can mentor that. Does who's knows that can mentor that. Does who's knows that can mentor that. Does who's been on the podcast. Like what been on the podcast. Like what been on the podcast. Like what connections can you open for this young connections can you open for this young connections can you open for this young woman to have the kingdom surround her woman to have the kingdom surround her woman to have the kingdom surround her and help her to be everything she's and help her to be everything she's and help her to be everything she's meant to be and all the opportunity that meant to be and all the opportunity that meant to be and all the opportunity that God's going to bring her and steward God's going to bring her and steward God's going to bring her and steward that well that she doesn't end up one of that well that she doesn't end up one of that well that she doesn't end up one of these fallen leaders that we see just these fallen leaders that we see just these fallen leaders that we see just dropping like flies right now. We all dropping like flies right now. We all dropping like flies right now. We all have the potential to do that. And the have the potential to do that. And the have the potential to do that. And the younger you are and the bigger your younger you are and the bigger your younger you are and the bigger your influence uh and the earlier it happens influence uh and the earlier it happens influence uh and the earlier it happens the more Satan is going to come after

the more Satan is going to come after the more Satan is going to come after you. her spiritual family is supposed to you. her spiritual family is supposed to you. her spiritual family is supposed to be there to hold her arms up and put be there to hold her arms up and put be there to hold her arms up and put protection around her, start a prayer protection around her, start a prayer protection around her, start a prayer team for her. Like I can think of a team for her. Like I can think of a team for her. Like I can think of a hundred things we can do to leverage hundred things we can do to leverage hundred things we can do to leverage things for her and putting her in a back things for her and putting her in a back things for her and putting her in a back office and telling her she has to work 9 office and telling her she has to work 9 office and telling her she has to work 9 to5 and get these photos photoshopped is to5 and get these photos photoshopped is to5 and get these photos photoshopped is not the is not the way to go. I don't do not the is not the way to go. I don't do not the is not the way to go. I don't do >> you know that's great advice and that >> you know that's great advice and that >> you know that's great advice and that really resonates too. I talked to a lot really resonates too. I talked to a lot really resonates too. I talked to a lot of CEOs and one of the, you know, of CEOs and one of the, you know, of CEOs and one of the, you know, longtime listeners of this podcast will longtime listeners of this podcast will longtime listeners of this podcast will know I come back to this question a lot, know I come back to this question a lot, know I come back to this question a lot, but they're just looking to be pastored, but they're just looking to be pastored, but they're just looking to be pastored, too. It's like, I don't want to blow the too. It's like, I don't want to blow the too. It's like, I don't want to blow the influence. I don't want to sell my soul. influence. I don't want to sell my soul. influence. I don't want to sell my soul. And great advice. Well, we'll get to the And great advice. Well, we'll get to the And great advice. Well, we'll get to the topic at hand. And I wanted to do a topic at hand. And I wanted to do a topic at hand. And I wanted to do a little bit of setup because if we just little bit of setup because if we just little bit of setup because if we just get into why are women leaving the get into why are women leaving the get into why are women leaving the church and we don't have a good context church and we don't have a good context church and we don't have a good context behind it, behind it, behind it, >> it just I don't know this is a much >> it just I don't know this is a much >> it just I don't know this is a much bigger conversation and we are dipping bigger conversation and we are dipping bigger conversation and we are dipping our toe in an hour plus just into the our toe in an hour plus just into the our toe in an hour plus just into the ocean. That's all we're doing. ocean. That's all we're doing. ocean. That's all we're doing. >> But I would love your take. Uh and we've >> But I would love your take. Uh and we've >> But I would love your take. Uh and we've hinted at it a little bit, but why are hinted at it a little bit, but why are hinted at it a little bit, but why are women leaving the church? because you've women leaving the church? because you've women leaving the church? because you've seen the numbers, you've seen the math.

seen the numbers, you've seen the math. seen the numbers, you've seen the math. Especially in the younger generation, Especially in the younger generation, Especially in the younger generation, Gen Z, younger millennials, men are Gen Z, younger millennials, men are Gen Z, younger millennials, men are moving in for the first time in polling moving in for the first time in polling moving in for the first time in polling history. Men are engaging in the local history. Men are engaging in the local history. Men are engaging in the local church at a higher rate than women. And church at a higher rate than women. And church at a higher rate than women. And women have been exiting now for years. women have been exiting now for years. women have been exiting now for years. >> What do you think is behind that trend, >> What do you think is behind that trend, >> What do you think is behind that trend, Katie? Katie? Katie? >> Well, I think that's actually one of the >> Well, I think that's actually one of the >> Well, I think that's actually one of the most important things to know is when most important things to know is when most important things to know is when that uh stat came out a few months ago, that uh stat came out a few months ago, that uh stat came out a few months ago, I just everybody was shocked. Everybody I just everybody was shocked. Everybody I just everybody was shocked. Everybody seemed up in arms. For me, I was not seemed up in arms. For me, I was not seemed up in arms. For me, I was not surprised because I know that really surprised because I know that really surprised because I know that really since probably 2010 to 2015, the numbers since probably 2010 to 2015, the numbers since probably 2010 to 2015, the numbers around women have changed dramatically. around women have changed dramatically. around women have changed dramatically. And usually what we would see in the And usually what we would see in the And usually what we would see in the polling data is that uh women would polling data is that uh women would polling data is that uh women would always be more engaged than men in always be more engaged than men in always be more engaged than men in church. And so if engagement went up, it church. And so if engagement went up, it church. And so if engagement went up, it went up for both, women were higher. If went up for both, women were higher. If went up for both, women were higher. If it went down, it went down for both. And it went down, it went down for both. And it went down, it went down for both. And there was a pretty significant gender there was a pretty significant gender there was a pretty significant gender gap. uh around the year 2000 I think for gap. uh around the year 2000 I think for gap. uh around the year 2000 I think for about three or four years the gap began about three or four years the gap began about three or four years the gap began to narrow and so those things started to to narrow and so those things started to to narrow and so those things started to squeeze together and women were starting squeeze together and women were starting squeeze together and women were starting to uh trend uh closer to what men were to uh trend uh closer to what men were to uh trend uh closer to what men were now for the first time it's reversed. So now for the first time it's reversed. So now for the first time it's reversed. So in my mind, this is not a new phenomena.

in my mind, this is not a new phenomena. in my mind, this is not a new phenomena. This is just the moving of women and now This is just the moving of women and now This is just the moving of women and now it's reflecting on men. And because men it's reflecting on men. And because men it's reflecting on men. And because men tend to be the target for most churches. tend to be the target for most churches. tend to be the target for most churches. We have kind of we still are living sort We have kind of we still are living sort We have kind of we still are living sort of in '9s business model around customer of in '9s business model around customer of in '9s business model around customer targets and men tend to be the place. targets and men tend to be the place. targets and men tend to be the place. And there's an assumption which isn't And there's an assumption which isn't And there's an assumption which isn't all wrong, but uh it's probably just all wrong, but uh it's probably just all wrong, but uh it's probably just outdated. This idea that if you get the outdated. This idea that if you get the outdated. This idea that if you get the husband, you get the wife and the kids husband, you get the wife and the kids husband, you get the wife and the kids and everybody else. And so there is and everybody else. And so there is and everybody else. And so there is >> Yeah, I subscribed to that. I really >> Yeah, I subscribed to that. I really >> Yeah, I subscribed to that. I really did. Yeah, I did too because actually did. Yeah, I did too because actually did. Yeah, I did too because actually for a long time that was really true. for a long time that was really true. for a long time that was really true. It's not true anymore. And so, um, It's not true anymore. And so, um, It's not true anymore. And so, um, that's not what's going to take us into that's not what's going to take us into that's not what's going to take us into the future. That's a 30-year-old the future. That's a 30-year-old the future. That's a 30-year-old mindset. It was helpful for a while, not mindset. It was helpful for a while, not mindset. It was helpful for a while, not helpful anymore. And so, um, I think helpful anymore. And so, um, I think helpful anymore. And so, um, I think it's still trailing. Like, I think it's still trailing. Like, I think it's still trailing. Like, I think people are still seeing results from it. people are still seeing results from it. people are still seeing results from it. But, uh, when you look at just women on But, uh, when you look at just women on But, uh, when you look at just women on those statistics, women have been those statistics, women have been those statistics, women have been telling us pretty clearly that church is telling us pretty clearly that church is telling us pretty clearly that church is not giving them what they're looking not giving them what they're looking not giving them what they're looking for. that uh the research would say for. that uh the research would say for. that uh the research would say again there isn't a lot of research on again there isn't a lot of research on again there isn't a lot of research on this. Women have sort of been under the this. Women have sort of been under the this. Women have sort of been under the radar in terms of research which is not radar in terms of research which is not radar in terms of research which is not unusual. Uh but uh women not getting the unusual. Uh but uh women not getting the unusual. Uh but uh women not getting the kind of support that's actually helpful kind of support that's actually helpful kind of support that's actually helpful to their life, spiritual support, to their life, spiritual support, to their life, spiritual support, emotional support for their actual um emotional support for their actual um emotional support for their actual um daily life. Um they do not have a good daily life. Um they do not have a good daily life. Um they do not have a good return on their time. So they spend a return on their time. So they spend a return on their time. So they spend a lot of time at church or they're lot of time at church or they're lot of time at church or they're involved in a lot of things with very involved in a lot of things with very involved in a lot of things with very little sort of ROI on that. Um, one of little sort of ROI on that. Um, one of little sort of ROI on that. Um, one of the things I think has happened is the the things I think has happened is the the things I think has happened is the methodology, um, this is particularly methodology, um, this is particularly methodology, um, this is particularly true for middle-aged women, the true for middle-aged women, the true for middle-aged women, the methodology of raising our kids has

methodology of raising our kids has methodology of raising our kids has really not proven to be effective. So really not proven to be effective. So really not proven to be effective. So many women u have their children not many women u have their children not many women u have their children not walking with the Lord even though they walking with the Lord even though they walking with the Lord even though they were there every Sunday. They went to were there every Sunday. They went to were there every Sunday. They went to small group. They were in youth group. small group. They were in youth group. small group. They were in youth group. This next generation, Gen Z, leaving the This next generation, Gen Z, leaving the This next generation, Gen Z, leaving the church has been pretty devastating to church has been pretty devastating to church has been pretty devastating to Gen X women who raised them. And that Gen X women who raised them. And that Gen X women who raised them. And that has caused them to question a lot of the has caused them to question a lot of the has caused them to question a lot of the methodologies that's been given. Uh methodologies that's been given. Uh methodologies that's been given. Uh trust breaking down around church as trust breaking down around church as trust breaking down around church as we've seen moral failures as we see the we've seen moral failures as we see the we've seen moral failures as we see the me too movement, the church too me too movement, the church too me too movement, the church too movement. Many of those women are movement. Many of those women are movement. Many of those women are victims of that or they're one degree victims of that or they're one degree victims of that or they're one degree away from someone who is and uh not only away from someone who is and uh not only away from someone who is and uh not only the sin that's happened in that, but the the sin that's happened in that, but the the sin that's happened in that, but the coverups of that are very they should be coverups of that are very they should be coverups of that are very they should be alarming to all of us, but they're alarming to all of us, but they're alarming to all of us, but they're particularly alarming to women. So the particularly alarming to women. So the particularly alarming to women. So the trust breakdown is significant and trust breakdown is significant and trust breakdown is significant and women's lives have changed dramatically. women's lives have changed dramatically. women's lives have changed dramatically. Uh most are working, most are educated, Uh most are working, most are educated, Uh most are working, most are educated, most are balancing family or long-term most are balancing family or long-term most are balancing family or long-term singleness. They're balancing their singleness. They're balancing their singleness. They're balancing their parents and the care of their aging parents and the care of their aging parents and the care of their aging parents. Uh firsttime generation really parents. Uh firsttime generation really parents. Uh firsttime generation really to be sandwiched in this way. Um and the to be sandwiched in this way. Um and the to be sandwiched in this way. Um and the church really has not changed its church really has not changed its church really has not changed its strategy around reaching women for about strategy around reaching women for about strategy around reaching women for about 50 years. And so if you think 50 years 50 years. And so if you think 50 years 50 years. And so if you think 50 years ago of what the role of a woman in a ago of what the role of a woman in a ago of what the role of a woman in a typical 20 or 30 years span of her typical 20 or 30 years span of her typical 20 or 30 years span of her midlife was, it's dramatically different midlife was, it's dramatically different midlife was, it's dramatically different today, but our strategies are all very today, but our strategies are all very today, but our strategies are all very much the same. And so women have been much the same. And so women have been much the same. And so women have been voting with their feet and leaving for a voting with their feet and leaving for a voting with their feet and leaving for a while.

while. while. >> So that's a lot. We need to uh I want to >> So that's a lot. We need to uh I want to >> So that's a lot. We need to uh I want to back up a little bit and start taking it back up a little bit and start taking it back up a little bit and start taking it bit by bit. You you said you also at one bit by bit. You you said you also at one bit by bit. You you said you also at one point subscribed to if you get the man, point subscribed to if you get the man, point subscribed to if you get the man, you get the family. and that perhaps you get the family. and that perhaps you get the family. and that perhaps that worked for a season, but it's not that worked for a season, but it's not that worked for a season, but it's not working anymore. Can you explain what working anymore. Can you explain what working anymore. Can you explain what was good about it while it lasted and was good about it while it lasted and was good about it while it lasted and then why it broke down? then why it broke down? then why it broke down? >> Mhm. Well, I think in the era of the '9s >> Mhm. Well, I think in the era of the '9s >> Mhm. Well, I think in the era of the '9s and uh into the early 2000s, we still and uh into the early 2000s, we still and uh into the early 2000s, we still had a lot of stable family units and had a lot of stable family units and had a lot of stable family units and women were very engaged in church. In women were very engaged in church. In women were very engaged in church. In fact, in 2015, again, this is the latest fact, in 2015, again, this is the latest fact, in 2015, again, this is the latest data I can find. In 2015, less than 10% data I can find. In 2015, less than 10% data I can find. In 2015, less than 10% of women in America had never been to a of women in America had never been to a of women in America had never been to a church service. So, 90 church service. So, 90 church service. So, 90 >> 90% of women had been to a church >> 90% of women had been to a church >> 90% of women had been to a church service service service >> have been to a church service at some >> have been to a church service at some >> have been to a church service at some point in their life. Uh we tend to track point in their life. Uh we tend to track point in their life. Uh we tend to track like who's actively involved, but that like who's actively involved, but that like who's actively involved, but that is a really significant number. 90% of is a really significant number. 90% of is a really significant number. 90% of women have been to a church. So, when women have been to a church. So, when women have been to a church. So, when women come in of uh begin to mature, women come in of uh begin to mature, women come in of uh begin to mature, they get married or they have a baby or they get married or they have a baby or they get married or they have a baby or both, they tend to want to bring their both, they tend to want to bring their both, they tend to want to bring their kids to church. And so the person who's kids to church. And so the person who's kids to church. And so the person who's not coming is the husband. So if we not coming is the husband. So if we not coming is the husband. So if we target the husband, a wife is already target the husband, a wife is already target the husband, a wife is already wanting to be there, is already wanting wanting to be there, is already wanting wanting to be there, is already wanting to bring her kids there, is already to bring her kids there, is already to bring her kids there, is already wishing her husband would come. So if we wishing her husband would come. So if we wishing her husband would come. So if we can get him, she's already in or she can get him, she's already in or she can get him, she's already in or she easily follows because of the prime easily follows because of the prime easily follows because of the prime event.

event. event. >> Yeah, that was a theory. >> Yeah, that was a theory. >> Yeah, that was a theory. >> Um, and I would say many churches ran >> Um, and I would say many churches ran >> Um, and I would say many churches ran that play and it was incredibly that play and it was incredibly that play and it was incredibly successful. Partly where you were in the successful. Partly where you were in the successful. Partly where you were in the country. So Midwest, Bible belt, country. So Midwest, Bible belt, country. So Midwest, Bible belt, incredibly successful. You know, the incredibly successful. You know, the incredibly successful. You know, the four extreme corners of the US, not as four extreme corners of the US, not as four extreme corners of the US, not as effective. Um, but definitely in those effective. Um, but definitely in those effective. Um, but definitely in those places that have a lot more sort of places that have a lot more sort of places that have a lot more sort of gender orientation towards male gender orientation towards male gender orientation towards male headship, those things were really headship, those things were really headship, those things were really primed for that. And so it was very very primed for that. And so it was very very primed for that. And so it was very very effective. I ran a lot of plays in effective. I ran a lot of plays in effective. I ran a lot of plays in ministry based on that. And uh, it's one ministry based on that. And uh, it's one ministry based on that. And uh, it's one of the reasons why I didn't worry about of the reasons why I didn't worry about of the reasons why I didn't worry about being on the platform. I'm like, I'm not being on the platform. I'm like, I'm not being on the platform. I'm like, I'm not the person who's going to reach a the person who's going to reach a the person who's going to reach a 30-year-old dad. So, I'm okay being in 30-year-old dad. So, I'm okay being in 30-year-old dad. So, I'm okay being in the wings on that. I care about the the wings on that. I care about the the wings on that. I care about the kingdom. I care about families. I want kingdom. I care about families. I want kingdom. I care about families. I want to see the church grow. That makes sense to see the church grow. That makes sense to see the church grow. That makes sense to me. But in today's context, those to me. But in today's context, those to me. But in today's context, those first of all, that stat I know I don't first of all, that stat I know I don't first of all, that stat I know I don't know what the new stat would be, but I know what the new stat would be, but I know what the new stat would be, but I know that's not accurate anymore in know that's not accurate anymore in know that's not accurate anymore in terms of 90% of women have been to terms of 90% of women have been to terms of 90% of women have been to church. Uh I also think that uh church. Uh I also think that uh church. Uh I also think that uh marriages have broken down or never marriages have broken down or never marriages have broken down or never actually formed. Most young adults uh actually formed. Most young adults uh actually formed. Most young adults uh have cohabitated but not have actually have cohabitated but not have actually have cohabitated but not have actually been married. So even the way we been married. So even the way we been married. So even the way we targeted as a husband and dad is not targeted as a husband and dad is not targeted as a husband and dad is not really the avatar we would be looking really the avatar we would be looking really the avatar we would be looking for even if we were running the same for even if we were running the same for even if we were running the same play. Um, I think also now most women play. Um, I think also now most women play. Um, I think also now most women are dechurched, which is a completely are dechurched, which is a completely are dechurched, which is a completely different assumption or way to connect different assumption or way to connect different assumption or way to connect with women than women who are unchurched with women than women who are unchurched with women than women who are unchurched or who have been churched one time or a or who have been churched one time or a or who have been churched one time or a few times. And so now we actually have few times. And so now we actually have few times. And so now we actually have to overcome the break of trust that's to overcome the break of trust that's to overcome the break of trust that's happened. So there has to be a real

happened. So there has to be a real happened. So there has to be a real strategy for women also to help them strategy for women also to help them strategy for women also to help them overcome that, heal from that, trust to overcome that, heal from that, trust to overcome that, heal from that, trust to be rebuilt, and actually to invite them be rebuilt, and actually to invite them be rebuilt, and actually to invite them back into a community that has been back into a community that has been back into a community that has been hurtful to them in many ways. hurtful to them in many ways. hurtful to them in many ways. >> I want to get to that, but I want to go >> I want to get to that, but I want to go >> I want to get to that, but I want to go back a little bit. I'm trying to back a little bit. I'm trying to back a little bit. I'm trying to remember that that long sentence you had remember that that long sentence you had remember that that long sentence you had that was just so full of, you know, that was just so full of, you know, that was just so full of, you know, really helpful insight. ROI. You really helpful insight. ROI. You really helpful insight. ROI. You mentioned that women have given a lot mentioned that women have given a lot mentioned that women have given a lot and not seen an ROI. And I believe you and not seen an ROI. And I believe you and not seen an ROI. And I believe you frame that in the context of frame that in the context of frame that in the context of relationship. You know, they're looking relationship. You know, they're looking relationship. You know, they're looking for relationship, they're looking for for relationship, they're looking for for relationship, they're looking for connection, they're not getting that. Do connection, they're not getting that. Do connection, they're not getting that. Do you want to unpack that a little bit? you want to unpack that a little bit? you want to unpack that a little bit? And then we're definitely going to get And then we're definitely going to get And then we're definitely going to get to abuse and me too and all that. to abuse and me too and all that. to abuse and me too and all that. >> Yeah. I think um one of the challenges >> Yeah. I think um one of the challenges >> Yeah. I think um one of the challenges with our current church strategies is with our current church strategies is with our current church strategies is that we ask a lot of people. We ask a that we ask a lot of people. We ask a that we ask a lot of people. We ask a lot of adults. We ask a whole lot of lot of adults. We ask a whole lot of lot of adults. We ask a whole lot of teenagers. Uh we have very full teenagers. Uh we have very full teenagers. Uh we have very full calendars. They're very rhythmic and calendars. They're very rhythmic and calendars. They're very rhythmic and very weekly. And so it's very demanding very weekly. And so it's very demanding very weekly. And so it's very demanding on a family, especially in today's on a family, especially in today's on a family, especially in today's context. You know, when I was growing context. You know, when I was growing context. You know, when I was growing up, we went to church Sunday morning. A up, we went to church Sunday morning. A up, we went to church Sunday morning. A lot of people went Sunday night, you lot of people went Sunday night, you lot of people went Sunday night, you went Wednesday night, you had choir went Wednesday night, you had choir went Wednesday night, you had choir practice one night, you had youth group practice one night, you had youth group practice one night, you had youth group another night. Like, you could be at another night. Like, you could be at another night. Like, you could be at church almost every day. There weren't church almost every day. There weren't church almost every day. There weren't as many competing demands. Jobs weren't as many competing demands. Jobs weren't as many competing demands. Jobs weren't as demanding. People didn't carry work as demanding. People didn't carry work as demanding. People didn't carry work home with them like they do now. Sports home with them like they do now. Sports home with them like they do now. Sports teams as a parent were not the same. Not teams as a parent were not the same. Not teams as a parent were not the same. Not just sports, but academics. uh the just sports, but academics. uh the just sports, but academics. uh the importance of having a job as a young uh importance of having a job as a young uh importance of having a job as a young uh person. Like there's just a lot of person. Like there's just a lot of person. Like there's just a lot of demands on families that are very demands on families that are very demands on families that are very different now. And so for women who are

different now. And so for women who are different now. And so for women who are also probably navigating their own also probably navigating their own also probably navigating their own career, they have a lot of demands on career, they have a lot of demands on career, they have a lot of demands on them. They carry what we call the double them. They carry what we call the double them. They carry what we call the double shift. They work a whole shift at work, shift. They work a whole shift at work, shift. They work a whole shift at work, then they come home and they're the then they come home and they're the then they come home and they're the primary caregiver for children in the primary caregiver for children in the primary caregiver for children in the home. Many times they're caring for home. Many times they're caring for home. Many times they're caring for parents. Um, there's just a lot of parents. Um, there's just a lot of parents. Um, there's just a lot of demands. And so women have to be very demands. And so women have to be very demands. And so women have to be very strategic about where they invest their strategic about where they invest their strategic about where they invest their time. And I would say most women are not time. And I would say most women are not time. And I would say most women are not saying, "I need some me time. I really saying, "I need some me time. I really saying, "I need some me time. I really got to make it to the gym. I really want got to make it to the gym. I really want got to make it to the gym. I really want to go shopping with my girlfriends. I to go shopping with my girlfriends. I to go shopping with my girlfriends. I really care about how my hair looks." really care about how my hair looks." really care about how my hair looks." They're saying, "What do my kids need? They're saying, "What do my kids need? They're saying, "What do my kids need? What does my family need? How do I make What does my family need? How do I make What does my family need? How do I make Christmas special? How do I get another Christmas special? How do I get another Christmas special? How do I get another job so my son can actually go to the job so my son can actually go to the job so my son can actually go to the college he wants to go to?" They are college he wants to go to?" They are college he wants to go to?" They are self-sacrificing self-sacrificing self-sacrificing for their family. So if they can rally for their family. So if they can rally for their family. So if they can rally everybody on a Sunday morning and make everybody on a Sunday morning and make everybody on a Sunday morning and make it to church for an hour and everyone it to church for an hour and everyone it to church for an hour and everyone leaves more joyful, more spiritfilled, leaves more joyful, more spiritfilled, leaves more joyful, more spiritfilled, more aligned as a family, loving God more aligned as a family, loving God more aligned as a family, loving God more, they are going to make that more, they are going to make that more, they are going to make that happen. If they rally the family and the happen. If they rally the family and the happen. If they rally the family and the kids ministry is like, okay, the message kids ministry is like, okay, the message kids ministry is like, okay, the message didn't really connect with anyone, um didn't really connect with anyone, um didn't really connect with anyone, um the kids don't like their whatever. Like the kids don't like their whatever. Like the kids don't like their whatever. Like if it doesn't have something that has a if it doesn't have something that has a if it doesn't have something that has a return for her family, she's not really return for her family, she's not really return for her family, she's not really considering herself, but for her family, considering herself, but for her family, considering herself, but for her family, it's going to be hard to keep doing it's going to be hard to keep doing it's going to be hard to keep doing that. And that's where I think some of that. And that's where I think some of that. And that's where I think some of our strategies around students and our strategies around students and our strategies around students and children's is really costing us a lot children's is really costing us a lot children's is really costing us a lot now in terms of what women want to now in terms of what women want to now in terms of what women want to invest in. And so many women raise their invest in. And so many women raise their invest in. And so many women raise their kids in the church and then once their kids in the church and then once their kids in the church and then once their kids don't need it, there isn't a lot kids don't need it, there isn't a lot kids don't need it, there isn't a lot for them there. And it hasn't really for them there. And it hasn't really for them there. And it hasn't really mattered until now, but now they really mattered until now, but now they really mattered until now, but now they really want to do something that's going to

want to do something that's going to want to do something that's going to benefit them, that's going to return on benefit them, that's going to return on benefit them, that's going to return on them uh both for their kids, but then them uh both for their kids, but then them uh both for their kids, but then for themselves also. Where is the place for themselves also. Where is the place for themselves also. Where is the place I feel spiritually alive? Who are the I feel spiritually alive? Who are the I feel spiritually alive? Who are the people that are life-giving to me? If people that are life-giving to me? If people that are life-giving to me? If all I'm doing is serving six hours a all I'm doing is serving six hours a all I'm doing is serving six hours a week, but I don't receive what I need week, but I don't receive what I need week, but I don't receive what I need back, I'm going to find a place that back, I'm going to find a place that back, I'm going to find a place that gives me both a contribution and gives me both a contribution and gives me both a contribution and something that I gain from it. Once something that I gain from it. Once something that I gain from it. Once again, there's a lot there, Katie. So, again, there's a lot there, Katie. So, again, there's a lot there, Katie. So, you mentioned, you know, you show up to you mentioned, you know, you show up to you mentioned, you know, you show up to a message, you don't get much out of it. a message, you don't get much out of it. a message, you don't get much out of it. Maybe your kids like or don't like Maybe your kids like or don't like Maybe your kids like or don't like what's happening in kids or student what's happening in kids or student what's happening in kids or student ministry. ministry. ministry. I agree. Life has gotten much more I agree. Life has gotten much more I agree. Life has gotten much more complex in the last 30 years than it was complex in the last 30 years than it was complex in the last 30 years than it was when we were raising our kids and they when we were raising our kids and they when we were raising our kids and they were young. were young. were young. What do church leaders do about that? Is What do church leaders do about that? Is What do church leaders do about that? Is it like better preaching? Like how would it like better preaching? Like how would it like better preaching? Like how would you invest in kids ministry? What would you invest in kids ministry? What would you invest in kids ministry? What would you change about the weekend experience? you change about the weekend experience? you change about the weekend experience? What just put your XP hat on, strategic What just put your XP hat on, strategic What just put your XP hat on, strategic hat on? What what would you recommend? hat on? What what would you recommend? hat on? What what would you recommend? Well, I think Sunday morning, you know, Well, I think Sunday morning, you know, Well, I think Sunday morning, you know, I think those of us who have been in I think those of us who have been in I think those of us who have been in higher level ministry leadership for a higher level ministry leadership for a higher level ministry leadership for a long time, we know Sunday morning has long time, we know Sunday morning has long time, we know Sunday morning has not had the same poll that it always has not had the same poll that it always has not had the same poll that it always has had in our culture. Uh, Sunday at 10:00 had in our culture. Uh, Sunday at 10:00 had in our culture. Uh, Sunday at 10:00 is still the ideal time. If you're doing is still the ideal time. If you're doing is still the ideal time. If you're doing a church plant, please start there. But a church plant, please start there. But a church plant, please start there. But alternative service times, multiple alternative service times, multiple alternative service times, multiple days, this is one of the reasons why we days, this is one of the reasons why we days, this is one of the reasons why we see the trend shifting on like Thursday see the trend shifting on like Thursday see the trend shifting on like Thursday evening church services because it fits evening church services because it fits evening church services because it fits into the rhythm of a family much easier.

into the rhythm of a family much easier. into the rhythm of a family much easier. you get a big return on your investment you get a big return on your investment you get a big return on your investment of time when you go to a service at that of time when you go to a service at that of time when you go to a service at that time or even doing things that we've time or even doing things that we've time or even doing things that we've generally lost in ministry. Uh small generally lost in ministry. Uh small generally lost in ministry. Uh small groups, Sunday schools, things that add groups, Sunday schools, things that add groups, Sunday schools, things that add on to Sunday morning so that we're going on to Sunday morning so that we're going on to Sunday morning so that we're going as a family to church and we all hit as a family to church and we all hit as a family to church and we all hit multiple things at one time rather than multiple things at one time rather than multiple things at one time rather than having to go multiple nights a week. having to go multiple nights a week. having to go multiple nights a week. Simple things like that. How do you Simple things like that. How do you Simple things like that. How do you align those things together? How do you align those things together? How do you align those things together? How do you offer meetings around volunteer offer meetings around volunteer offer meetings around volunteer trainings or leadership development trainings or leadership development trainings or leadership development opportunities in line with where people opportunities in line with where people opportunities in line with where people are already at service? So, if you think are already at service? So, if you think are already at service? So, if you think of how do I get the most from a drive to of how do I get the most from a drive to of how do I get the most from a drive to church um and how do we maximize that church um and how do we maximize that church um and how do we maximize that and do as much as we can while someone's and do as much as we can while someone's and do as much as we can while someone's already on property, that is one of the already on property, that is one of the already on property, that is one of the first things to be looking at. So, first things to be looking at. So, first things to be looking at. So, rather than another night of services or rather than another night of services or rather than another night of services or I'm sorry, another night of offerings, I'm sorry, another night of offerings, I'm sorry, another night of offerings, linking that into services and offering linking that into services and offering linking that into services and offering weekend services in alternate times. weekend services in alternate times. weekend services in alternate times. That's probably the first place I would That's probably the first place I would That's probably the first place I would start. Uh the second thing is what are start. Uh the second thing is what are start. Uh the second thing is what are the messages we're giving and what are the messages we're giving and what are the messages we're giving and what are we talking about? Um I think a lot of we talking about? Um I think a lot of we talking about? Um I think a lot of times uh there is a aptitude for male times uh there is a aptitude for male times uh there is a aptitude for male voices in the pulpit and so a lot of voices in the pulpit and so a lot of voices in the pulpit and so a lot of women I would say I fall into this um women I would say I fall into this um women I would say I fall into this um I've grown up on male preaching. I I've grown up on male preaching. I I've grown up on male preaching. I understand male metaphors. It's the understand male metaphors. It's the understand male metaphors. It's the disciplehip I've had most of my life.

disciplehip I've had most of my life. disciplehip I've had most of my life. But when those uh worlds begin to expand But when those uh worlds begin to expand But when those uh worlds begin to expand to uh stories, metaphors, teachings, to uh stories, metaphors, teachings, to uh stories, metaphors, teachings, angles that are more aligned with my angles that are more aligned with my angles that are more aligned with my life, those do come alive in me. And so life, those do come alive in me. And so life, those do come alive in me. And so I think one of the competencies that I think one of the competencies that I think one of the competencies that we're seeing overall in leadership we're seeing overall in leadership we're seeing overall in leadership everywhere, marketplace, church, um everywhere, marketplace, church, um everywhere, marketplace, church, um we're definitely seeing it um around we're definitely seeing it um around we're definitely seeing it um around women leaders, but is the competency of women leaders, but is the competency of women leaders, but is the competency of emotional intelligence, relational emotional intelligence, relational emotional intelligence, relational intelligence, uh vulnerability. Those intelligence, uh vulnerability. Those intelligence, uh vulnerability. Those are pieces that women naturally are good are pieces that women naturally are good are pieces that women naturally are good at. They communicate in those ways. Uh at. They communicate in those ways. Uh at. They communicate in those ways. Uh soft skills are generally not what women soft skills are generally not what women soft skills are generally not what women are missing when they step into are missing when they step into are missing when they step into leadership. Most men are missing it. And leadership. Most men are missing it. And leadership. Most men are missing it. And so you can see that in the pulpit that so you can see that in the pulpit that so you can see that in the pulpit that many of the sermons are hard-hitting. many of the sermons are hard-hitting. many of the sermons are hard-hitting. They're very pointed. There's not a lot They're very pointed. There's not a lot They're very pointed. There's not a lot of intonation. I still tease pastors. of intonation. I still tease pastors. of intonation. I still tease pastors. I'm like, "Please quit saying you're bad I'm like, "Please quit saying you're bad I'm like, "Please quit saying you're bad at counseling." Like we're in a mental at counseling." Like we're in a mental at counseling." Like we're in a mental health crisis in the country. Even if health crisis in the country. Even if health crisis in the country. Even if you're not that great at counseling, you're not that great at counseling, you're not that great at counseling, please don't announce it. that's not an please don't announce it. that's not an please don't announce it. that's not an attractive quality of a leader anymore attractive quality of a leader anymore attractive quality of a leader anymore that says you can't help me or my kids.

that says you can't help me or my kids. that says you can't help me or my kids. So those things have shifted. And so So those things have shifted. And so So those things have shifted. And so when you can expand your repertoire or when you can expand your repertoire or when you can expand your repertoire or the tools in your preaching toolbox to the tools in your preaching toolbox to the tools in your preaching toolbox to expand into those softer skills, you're expand into those softer skills, you're expand into those softer skills, you're not only connecting more with women, not only connecting more with women, not only connecting more with women, you're actually communicating more you're actually communicating more you're actually communicating more holistically to your congregation and holistically to your congregation and holistically to your congregation and you're reaching a generation that lives you're reaching a generation that lives you're reaching a generation that lives in that world. Uh Gen Z has been raised in that world. Uh Gen Z has been raised in that world. Uh Gen Z has been raised on emotional intelligence. They have on emotional intelligence. They have on emotional intelligence. They have been raised on team dynamics. Their been raised on team dynamics. Their been raised on team dynamics. Their classrooms are completely different than classrooms are completely different than classrooms are completely different than the way all of us who are older went to the way all of us who are older went to the way all of us who are older went to school. That is the lang. If you watch school. That is the lang. If you watch school. That is the lang. If you watch their feeds of anyone under 20, it's all their feeds of anyone under 20, it's all their feeds of anyone under 20, it's all about their feels. It's all about their about their feels. It's all about their about their feels. It's all about their mental health. It's all about their mental health. It's all about their mental health. It's all about their awareness. If we're not including that awareness. If we're not including that awareness. If we're not including that in our teaching, we're eliminating a lot in our teaching, we're eliminating a lot in our teaching, we're eliminating a lot of the population, mostly people who are of the population, mostly people who are of the population, mostly people who are not exactly like us. not exactly like us. not exactly like us. >> So, it's generational, not just gender. >> So, it's generational, not just gender. >> So, it's generational, not just gender. >> Absolutely. It's where it's where the >> Absolutely. It's where it's where the >> Absolutely. It's where it's where the culture is going. culture is going. culture is going. >> Yeah. Let's talk about not safe space >> Yeah. Let's talk about not safe space >> Yeah. Let's talk about not safe space for women. Um, church too, me too. for women. Um, church too, me too. for women. Um, church too, me too. To what extent To what extent To what extent is that fueling the exit of women from is that fueling the exit of women from is that fueling the exit of women from church in your view?

church in your view? church in your view? I think that topic not only around the I think that topic not only around the I think that topic not only around the sexuality issues of those particular sexuality issues of those particular sexuality issues of those particular topics but I think the issue of trust in topics but I think the issue of trust in topics but I think the issue of trust in the church as a whole in leadership in the church as a whole in leadership in the church as a whole in leadership in uh what it means to be a pastor I think uh what it means to be a pastor I think uh what it means to be a pastor I think that has had a severe breakdown of trust that has had a severe breakdown of trust that has had a severe breakdown of trust and uh and uh and uh I think there's a lot of pieces that go I think there's a lot of pieces that go I think there's a lot of pieces that go into that uh but it is probably the into that uh but it is probably the into that uh but it is probably the number one issue I would say I think number one issue I would say I think number one issue I would say I think women for the last 10 years have been women for the last 10 years have been women for the last 10 years have been voting with their feet around ability voting with their feet around ability voting with their feet around ability just to keep up with church demands and just to keep up with church demands and just to keep up with church demands and engagement and have it have a return. engagement and have it have a return. engagement and have it have a return. But I think the reason women have left But I think the reason women have left But I think the reason women have left the church um and I know many who the church um and I know many who the church um and I know many who haven't left Jesus. I think the haven't left Jesus. I think the haven't left Jesus. I think the assumption is they walked away from the assumption is they walked away from the assumption is they walked away from the Lord. I don't think that's true for most Lord. I don't think that's true for most Lord. I don't think that's true for most women. I think they still love Jesus. I women. I think they still love Jesus. I women. I think they still love Jesus. I think they're still pursuing him. I think they're still pursuing him. I think they're still pursuing him. I think they just don't want anything to think they just don't want anything to think they just don't want anything to do with kind of organized church or I do with kind of organized church or I do with kind of organized church or I think we use the term organized think we use the term organized think we use the term organized religion. I don't think that's really religion. I don't think that's really religion. I don't think that's really what they mean. I think the American what they mean. I think the American what they mean. I think the American evangelical church is the thing that evangelical church is the thing that evangelical church is the thing that really has let them down and their trust really has let them down and their trust really has let them down and their trust in it is very low. And so um we have a in it is very low. And so um we have a in it is very low. And so um we have a lot to rebuild there. I think um a few lot to rebuild there. I think um a few lot to rebuild there. I think um a few pieces come into that. Um I mentioned pieces come into that. Um I mentioned pieces come into that. Um I mentioned earlier pastors that have fallen and earlier pastors that have fallen and earlier pastors that have fallen and been uh taken out of ministry. Um es been uh taken out of ministry. Um es been uh taken out of ministry. Um es again women my age. Many of those again women my age. Many of those again women my age. Many of those leaders are the ones we grew up with and leaders are the ones we grew up with and leaders are the ones we grew up with and read all their books and did their Bible read all their books and did their Bible read all their books and did their Bible studies and they, you know, maybe from studies and they, you know, maybe from studies and they, you know, maybe from afar, but they discipled us in many

afar, but they discipled us in many afar, but they discipled us in many ways. And so, especially if you grew up ways. And so, especially if you grew up ways. And so, especially if you grew up in uh an environment uh that was in uh an environment uh that was in uh an environment uh that was complimentarian or very maledominated, complimentarian or very maledominated, complimentarian or very maledominated, those voices was submission without those voices was submission without those voices was submission without question. And when those submission question. And when those submission question. And when those submission without question people take a tumble without question people take a tumble without question people take a tumble like that, those people that you really like that, those people that you really like that, those people that you really trusted and set yourself aside for, that trusted and set yourself aside for, that trusted and set yourself aside for, that is a that is a severe breach of trust. is a that is a severe breach of trust. is a that is a severe breach of trust. Uh I think the politics um I know we Uh I think the politics um I know we Uh I think the politics um I know we probably don't want to talk politics on probably don't want to talk politics on probably don't want to talk politics on here, but I do think it plays a huge here, but I do think it plays a huge here, but I do think it plays a huge piece in this. Um again, especially for piece in this. Um again, especially for piece in this. Um again, especially for older women um who are looking at older women um who are looking at older women um who are looking at leadership u women who have been serving leadership u women who have been serving leadership u women who have been serving in the church for decades who have in the church for decades who have in the church for decades who have leadership capacity and time and leadership capacity and time and leadership capacity and time and availability. availability. availability. um the politics and uh the things we um the politics and uh the things we um the politics and uh the things we were raised on around integrity and were raised on around integrity and were raised on around integrity and character that are now uh sort of character that are now uh sort of character that are now uh sort of dismissed in today's context and um and dismissed in today's context and um and dismissed in today's context and um and sort of set aside. That is a real sort of set aside. That is a real sort of set aside. That is a real dissonance that creates what exactly are dissonance that creates what exactly are dissonance that creates what exactly are we standing for? What do you believe? Or we standing for? What do you believe? Or we standing for? What do you believe? Or where do I stand on this? It's caused a where do I stand on this? It's caused a where do I stand on this? It's caused a lot of people to question and I think lot of people to question and I think lot of people to question and I think their kids again, Gen Z's coming up and their kids again, Gen Z's coming up and their kids again, Gen Z's coming up and they're watching this, they're much more they're watching this, they're much more they're watching this, they're much more aware. They're much more in tune.

aware. They're much more in tune. aware. They're much more in tune. They're watching it on social media and They're watching it on social media and They're watching it on social media and they're sensitive to what their kids are they're sensitive to what their kids are they're sensitive to what their kids are going through. Many are going through going through. Many are going through going through. Many are going through gender exploration. Many are questioning gender exploration. Many are questioning gender exploration. Many are questioning their faith. Many are deconstructing the their faith. Many are deconstructing the their faith. Many are deconstructing the faith of their parents. And they um want faith of their parents. And they um want faith of their parents. And they um want to be able to have their faith look to be able to have their faith look to be able to have their faith look solid and be something their kids can solid and be something their kids can solid and be something their kids can respect or at least they know they'll be respect or at least they know they'll be respect or at least they know they'll be accepted in. And uh most of what's shown accepted in. And uh most of what's shown accepted in. And uh most of what's shown on social media, I don't think on social media, I don't think on social media, I don't think accurately reflects the heart of most accurately reflects the heart of most accurately reflects the heart of most Christians, but it is what is Christians, but it is what is Christians, but it is what is communicated on social media. And that communicated on social media. And that communicated on social media. And that creates a real uh breakdown of of who do creates a real uh breakdown of of who do creates a real uh breakdown of of who do I align with? How do I participate? And I align with? How do I participate? And I align with? How do I participate? And how do I make sure that matches who who how do I make sure that matches who who how do I make sure that matches who who I know God to be and the kind of I know God to be and the kind of I know God to be and the kind of Christian I feel called to be? How do I Christian I feel called to be? How do I Christian I feel called to be? How do I make sure the people I love have a place make sure the people I love have a place make sure the people I love have a place in that? and how do I make sure I'm in that? and how do I make sure I'm in that? and how do I make sure I'm going to be in a safe place as well for going to be in a safe place as well for going to be in a safe place as well for my own exploration? >> You mentioned um the character issue >> You mentioned um the character issue which I'm really concerned about as which I'm really concerned about as which I'm really concerned about as well. There's there's a harshness to well. There's there's a harshness to well. There's there's a harshness to Christianity today. Um meanness and I Christianity today. Um meanness and I Christianity today. Um meanness and I think it's reflective of our our climate think it's reflective of our our climate think it's reflective of our our climate as a whole as a culture. Is that a as a whole as a culture. Is that a as a whole as a culture. Is that a factor as well in I'm not I know mean factor as well in I'm not I know mean factor as well in I'm not I know mean women and etc etc. It's not like all men women and etc etc. It's not like all men women and etc etc. It's not like all men are mean and you know that kind of are mean and you know that kind of are mean and you know that kind of thing.

thing. thing. >> Women are the best at being mean. What >> Women are the best at being mean. What >> Women are the best at being mean. What are you talking about, Carrie? are you talking about, Carrie? are you talking about, Carrie? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Listen, I didn't say it. I didn't say >> Listen, I didn't say it. I didn't say >> Listen, I didn't say it. I didn't say it. But it's that's not a gender it. But it's that's not a gender it. But it's that's not a gender exclusive issue. But I mean, how much of exclusive issue. But I mean, how much of exclusive issue. But I mean, how much of that is an issue? If you're a bit of a that is an issue? If you're a bit of a that is an issue? If you're a bit of a bully pastor, if you're uh you know, bro bully pastor, if you're uh you know, bro bully pastor, if you're uh you know, bro culture, uh that kind of thing taken to culture, uh that kind of thing taken to culture, uh that kind of thing taken to an extreme, is that having an impact at an extreme, is that having an impact at an extreme, is that having an impact at all on women's engagement in church? all on women's engagement in church? all on women's engagement in church? >> I think so. So, I think it depends on >> I think so. So, I think it depends on >> I think so. So, I think it depends on the context you're in. I think it the context you're in. I think it the context you're in. I think it depends on the church you're in. Again, depends on the church you're in. Again, depends on the church you're in. Again, I think there's sort of like the church I think there's sort of like the church I think there's sort of like the church I go to and what I see online and you I go to and what I see online and you I go to and what I see online and you know, the algorithms will always elevate know, the algorithms will always elevate know, the algorithms will always elevate those kinds of voices even if they are those kinds of voices even if they are those kinds of voices even if they are the minority. But when it's in your the minority. But when it's in your the minority. But when it's in your feed, unfortunately, people assume that feed, unfortunately, people assume that feed, unfortunately, people assume that it's the majority. And if they're not it's the majority. And if they're not it's the majority. And if they're not connected in a Christian community connected in a Christian community connected in a Christian community that's healthy, that's loving, that can that's healthy, that's loving, that can that's healthy, that's loving, that can balance that, uh it is really easy to balance that, uh it is really easy to balance that, uh it is really easy to assume that all people are like that. assume that all people are like that. assume that all people are like that. And because I think a lot of that And because I think a lot of that And because I think a lot of that culture and that sort of niche of the culture and that sort of niche of the culture and that sort of niche of the Christian community is very vocal and Christian community is very vocal and Christian community is very vocal and they're very vocal about their faith in they're very vocal about their faith in they're very vocal about their faith in it. Those two things get locked it. Those two things get locked it. Those two things get locked together. Um and so people make together. Um and so people make together. Um and so people make assumptions of association that aren't assumptions of association that aren't assumptions of association that aren't necessarily true for everyone.

necessarily true for everyone. necessarily true for everyone. >> Yeah. some of the data that is coming in >> Yeah. some of the data that is coming in >> Yeah. some of the data that is coming in particularly around Gen Z women um is particularly around Gen Z women um is particularly around Gen Z women um is that it's not just leaving the church that it's not just leaving the church that it's not just leaving the church and you mentioned you have friends who and you mentioned you have friends who and you mentioned you have friends who have left the church but haven't left have left the church but haven't left have left the church but haven't left Jesus which is you know I think Jesus which is you know I think Jesus which is you know I think wonderful let's let's cling to and I wonderful let's let's cling to and I wonderful let's let's cling to and I know you're committed to the local know you're committed to the local know you're committed to the local church and you want to see everybody church and you want to see everybody church and you want to see everybody back in a healthy church etc so do I back in a healthy church etc so do I back in a healthy church etc so do I >> there's a number of Gen Z women who are >> there's a number of Gen Z women who are >> there's a number of Gen Z women who are stepping away from faith who their Bible stepping away from faith who their Bible stepping away from faith who their Bible reading's lower you look at the stats reading's lower you look at the stats reading's lower you look at the stats that Bara provided their Bible reading that Bara provided their Bible reading that Bara provided their Bible reading is lowest, their prayer is the lowest, is lowest, their prayer is the lowest, is lowest, their prayer is the lowest, their spiritual engagement is lower than their spiritual engagement is lower than their spiritual engagement is lower than men. And I'm just wondering men. And I'm just wondering men. And I'm just wondering what what do you think is behind that? what what do you think is behind that? what what do you think is behind that? [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> Yeah, that that's a tough one. I think >> Yeah, that that's a tough one. I think >> Yeah, that that's a tough one. I think um I think part of the challenge even in um I think part of the challenge even in um I think part of the challenge even in our own mindset, at least for me, is our own mindset, at least for me, is our own mindset, at least for me, is we've always assumed that women are more we've always assumed that women are more we've always assumed that women are more likely to do those things. We're more likely to do those things. We're more likely to do those things. We're more relational, so the relational connection relational, so the relational connection relational, so the relational connection with Jesus makes more sense. It's more with Jesus makes more sense. It's more with Jesus makes more sense. It's more natural. We natural we're we tend to be natural. We natural we're we tend to be natural. We natural we're we tend to be academic learners so we love to read and academic learners so we love to read and academic learners so we love to read and learn and study and yeah this next learn and study and yeah this next learn and study and yeah this next generation uh and I think we don't have generation uh and I think we don't have generation uh and I think we don't have any data really on generation alpha but any data really on generation alpha but any data really on generation alpha but uh they're the true co kids and so I uh they're the true co kids and so I uh they're the true co kids and so I think that's going to be an even bigger think that's going to be an even bigger think that's going to be an even bigger shift and shift and shift and >> I don't actually know that I've got >> I don't actually know that I've got >> I don't actually know that I've got great insight to that I have several great insight to that I have several great insight to that I have several young adult women in my life and I young adult women in my life and I young adult women in my life and I definitely try to connect with people definitely try to connect with people definitely try to connect with people there but I I do think uh a lot of it there but I I do think uh a lot of it there but I I do think uh a lot of it has to do with uh searching for things

has to do with uh searching for things has to do with uh searching for things in other ways. I find I find Gen Z to be in other ways. I find I find Gen Z to be in other ways. I find I find Gen Z to be very spiritually hungry. I think that's very spiritually hungry. I think that's very spiritually hungry. I think that's part of what we're seeing in the revival part of what we're seeing in the revival part of what we're seeing in the revival happening right now. But I would say happening right now. But I would say happening right now. But I would say overall I see Gen Z pursuing lots of overall I see Gen Z pursuing lots of overall I see Gen Z pursuing lots of options for spirituality. Christianity options for spirituality. Christianity options for spirituality. Christianity is one of them. is one of them. is one of them. >> And [clears throat] uh so I would >> And [clears throat] uh so I would >> And [clears throat] uh so I would caution all of us not to assume that caution all of us not to assume that caution all of us not to assume that there's a revival in Christianity there's a revival in Christianity there's a revival in Christianity happening. I think there's a revival in happening. I think there's a revival in happening. I think there's a revival in everything happening. And so we we need everything happening. And so we we need everything happening. And so we we need to sort of mark that. And I think women to sort of mark that. And I think women to sort of mark that. And I think women disengaging uh from those kind of daily disengaging uh from those kind of daily disengaging uh from those kind of daily habits is a sign of that. I think habits is a sign of that. I think habits is a sign of that. I think they're doing daily habits. I just don't they're doing daily habits. I just don't they're doing daily habits. I just don't think they're doing uh Christian daily think they're doing uh Christian daily think they're doing uh Christian daily practices. practices. practices. >> Are there any other signs or reasons >> Are there any other signs or reasons >> Are there any other signs or reasons that you're seeing that we haven't that you're seeing that we haven't that you're seeing that we haven't talked about so far? talked about so far? talked about so far? >> Um I think I think the trust thing is a >> Um I think I think the trust thing is a >> Um I think I think the trust thing is a big piece. I think the other piece is big piece. I think the other piece is big piece. I think the other piece is the mindset and the the mindset and the the mindset and the >> the way our culture operates now has >> the way our culture operates now has >> the way our culture operates now has shifted. I don't think that those of us shifted. I don't think that those of us shifted. I don't think that those of us serving in ministry have caught up to serving in ministry have caught up to serving in ministry have caught up to this in how we lead ministry. So uh one this in how we lead ministry. So uh one this in how we lead ministry. So uh one of the most influential books when I was of the most influential books when I was of the most influential books when I was a young leader was uh Jim Collins Good a young leader was uh Jim Collins Good a young leader was uh Jim Collins Good to Great and Built to Last. You probably to Great and Built to Last. You probably to Great and Built to Last. You probably remember those. One of the concepts I remember those. One of the concepts I remember those. One of the concepts I loved in uh the built to last book was loved in uh the built to last book was loved in uh the built to last book was the concept of moving from the tyranny the concept of moving from the tyranny the concept of moving from the tyranny of the ore to the genius of the ant. And of the ore to the genius of the ant. And of the ore to the genius of the ant. And it was this idea that coming out of the it was this idea that coming out of the it was this idea that coming out of the modern movement and sort of moving into modern movement and sort of moving into modern movement and sort of moving into postmodern culture. Modern movement was

postmodern culture. Modern movement was postmodern culture. Modern movement was very either or, very black and white, very either or, very black and white, very either or, very black and white, very kind of like this or that. And when very kind of like this or that. And when very kind of like this or that. And when you're a leader, if all you do is look you're a leader, if all you do is look you're a leader, if all you do is look at decisions as yes or no, right or at decisions as yes or no, right or at decisions as yes or no, right or wrong, it's really limiting. And so he wrong, it's really limiting. And so he wrong, it's really limiting. And so he was making a case, very good case. This was making a case, very good case. This was making a case, very good case. This is in the mid '90s to uh look at the and is in the mid '90s to uh look at the and is in the mid '90s to uh look at the and is there something good in this solution is there something good in this solution is there something good in this solution and this solution to make a third way and this solution to make a third way and this solution to make a third way that actually is where the real genius that actually is where the real genius that actually is where the real genius is. That's the genius of the and I think is. That's the genius of the and I think is. That's the genius of the and I think our culture has taken another step. I our culture has taken another step. I our culture has taken another step. I think we should not be thinking either think we should not be thinking either think we should not be thinking either or. I think both and is limiting. I or. I think both and is limiting. I or. I think both and is limiting. I think we need to be moving to the think we need to be moving to the think we need to be moving to the calling of integration. And I see this a calling of integration. And I see this a calling of integration. And I see this a lot in multi-sight. Then I'll bring it lot in multi-sight. Then I'll bring it lot in multi-sight. Then I'll bring it back to men and women. So, in the back to men and women. So, in the back to men and women. So, in the multi-sight movement, which is really multi-sight movement, which is really multi-sight movement, which is really one of the areas I work with churches on one of the areas I work with churches on one of the areas I work with churches on the most, uh, we tend to still think of the most, uh, we tend to still think of the most, uh, we tend to still think of church as brickandmortar or on-site and church as brickandmortar or on-site and church as brickandmortar or on-site and online, and we categorize people in our online, and we categorize people in our online, and we categorize people in our mind that way. And so, we're like, "Oh, mind that way. And so, we're like, "Oh, mind that way. And so, we're like, "Oh, that's an online person. We do this for that's an online person. We do this for that's an online person. We do this for online people, and we do this for people online people, and we do this for people online people, and we do this for people in person." But in reality, like I shop in person." But in reality, like I shop in person." But in reality, like I shop at Target a lot and I shop at Target in at Target a lot and I shop at Target in at Target a lot and I shop at Target in person. I go home and pull it up on my person. I go home and pull it up on my person. I go home and pull it up on my laptop and shop and have things that I laptop and shop and have things that I laptop and shop and have things that I can pick up in the store or get can pick up in the store or get can pick up in the store or get delivered to my home. Sometimes I'm in delivered to my home. Sometimes I'm in delivered to my home. Sometimes I'm in Target looking for something, they don't Target looking for something, they don't Target looking for something, they don't have my size, so I pull up the app on my have my size, so I pull up the app on my have my size, so I pull up the app on my phone, order it, it gets shipped to my phone, order it, it gets shipped to my phone, order it, it gets shipped to my house. I do not think of myself as an house. I do not think of myself as an house. I do not think of myself as an in-person shopper or an online person in-person shopper or an online person in-person shopper or an online person shopper. I'm just a target customer. And shopper. I'm just a target customer. And shopper. I'm just a target customer. And in our churches, people feel the same in our churches, people feel the same in our churches, people feel the same way. They come to church on one Sunday, way. They come to church on one Sunday, way. They come to church on one Sunday, they watch it in their car on the way to

they watch it in their car on the way to they watch it in their car on the way to the soccer meet. Another Sunday, they're the soccer meet. Another Sunday, they're the soccer meet. Another Sunday, they're on vacation. It's just easier. They're on vacation. It's just easier. They're on vacation. It's just easier. They're back in service. They may jump around to back in service. They may jump around to back in service. They may jump around to different campuses depending on where different campuses depending on where different campuses depending on where they are at on a Sunday morning. They they are at on a Sunday morning. They they are at on a Sunday morning. They don't think of themselves in the boxes don't think of themselves in the boxes don't think of themselves in the boxes that we put them in. And so I think the that we put them in. And so I think the that we put them in. And so I think the challenge for us is to move for are you challenge for us is to move for are you challenge for us is to move for are you both and or are you actually an both and or are you actually an both and or are you actually an integrated consumer, an integrated integrated consumer, an integrated integrated consumer, an integrated member of the church. You show up member of the church. You show up member of the church. You show up everywhere. You show up in small groups everywhere. You show up in small groups everywhere. You show up in small groups and you show up on missions and you show and you show up on missions and you show and you show up on missions and you show up in women's ministry and you show up up in women's ministry and you show up up in women's ministry and you show up on Sunday morning. We're integrated. And on Sunday morning. We're integrated. And on Sunday morning. We're integrated. And that kind of thinking more holistic, that kind of thinking more holistic, that kind of thinking more holistic, more collaborative, more cooperative is more collaborative, more cooperative is more collaborative, more cooperative is how we need to be moving forward in our how we need to be moving forward in our how we need to be moving forward in our ministry mindsets. But also because this ministry mindsets. But also because this ministry mindsets. But also because this next generation thinks in those terms. next generation thinks in those terms. next generation thinks in those terms. They they don't think in terms of like They they don't think in terms of like They they don't think in terms of like girls and boys teams. They don't think girls and boys teams. They don't think girls and boys teams. They don't think in terms of men's and women's ministry. in terms of men's and women's ministry. in terms of men's and women's ministry. They don't even think in terms of age They don't even think in terms of age They don't even think in terms of age group. They don't even think in terms of group. They don't even think in terms of group. They don't even think in terms of I live in this part of the country. Like I live in this part of the country. Like I live in this part of the country. Like my son, he's got friends all over the my son, he's got friends all over the my son, he's got friends all over the world that he's never met in person that world that he's never met in person that world that he's never met in person that he's done through online or through he's done through online or through he's done through online or through video games or he met one time because video games or he met one time because video games or he met one time because his girlfriend was in Japan and she met his girlfriend was in Japan and she met his girlfriend was in Japan and she met them. Now they've all stayed connected them. Now they've all stayed connected them. Now they've all stayed connected through Instagram and they're going to through Instagram and they're going to through Instagram and they're going to get together next year like their world get together next year like their world get together next year like their world is integrated and we have to also be is integrated and we have to also be is integrated and we have to also be thinking about that. So as we reinvent thinking about that. So as we reinvent thinking about that. So as we reinvent some of ourselves because the church is some of ourselves because the church is some of ourselves because the church is in the middle of a reinvention. I hope in the middle of a reinvention. I hope in the middle of a reinvention. I hope we realize that we have to rethink our we realize that we have to rethink our we realize that we have to rethink our strategies. So as you experiment, strategies. So as you experiment, strategies. So as you experiment, particularly if you are experimenting particularly if you are experimenting particularly if you are experimenting and launching young adult ministries,

and launching young adult ministries, and launching young adult ministries, launch it differently than you've launch it differently than you've launch it differently than you've launched all the other things, think of launched all the other things, think of launched all the other things, think of it more integrated. A young adult does it more integrated. A young adult does it more integrated. A young adult does not just need other young adults. not just need other young adults. not just need other young adults. They're hungry for people older than They're hungry for people older than They're hungry for people older than them. They long for parents and them. They long for parents and them. They long for parents and grandparents, spiritual parents and grandparents, spiritual parents and grandparents, spiritual parents and grandparents. And so and if they get grandparents. And so and if they get grandparents. And so and if they get married, please don't bump them. married, please don't bump them. married, please don't bump them. Singleness is not just like the waiting Singleness is not just like the waiting Singleness is not just like the waiting room for married life. It's all room for married life. It's all room for married life. It's all integrated. We need people in our lives integrated. We need people in our lives integrated. We need people in our lives who are single. people who are married. who are single. people who are married. who are single. people who are married. I need male friendships. I need female I need male friendships. I need female I need male friendships. I need female friendships. I need mentors who are both friendships. I need mentors who are both friendships. I need mentors who are both male and female, older than me. I need male and female, older than me. I need male and female, older than me. I need to be reverse mentored from people to be reverse mentored from people to be reverse mentored from people younger than me. I need the whole body. younger than me. I need the whole body. younger than me. I need the whole body. I need the whole church to help me. I need the whole church to help me. I need the whole church to help me. That's the power of the local church. That's the power of the local church. That's the power of the local church. You walk in and there's a little bit of You walk in and there's a little bit of You walk in and there's a little bit of everyone. But if we walk in and there's everyone. But if we walk in and there's everyone. But if we walk in and there's not a little bit of everyone, there's not a little bit of everyone, there's not a little bit of everyone, there's just a lot of people who look like that, just a lot of people who look like that, just a lot of people who look like that, this next generation notices that that's this next generation notices that that's this next generation notices that that's not going to work for them. And so as we not going to work for them. And so as we not going to work for them. And so as we move forward, I think we need to think move forward, I think we need to think move forward, I think we need to think about this idea of integration. So in about this idea of integration. So in about this idea of integration. So in terms of men and women and church terms of men and women and church terms of men and women and church leadership, how do we make sure women leadership, how do we make sure women leadership, how do we make sure women and men are integrated in all of our and men are integrated in all of our and men are integrated in all of our main pathways? Is our disciplehip main pathways? Is our disciplehip main pathways? Is our disciplehip strategies for spiritual formation? Are strategies for spiritual formation? Are strategies for spiritual formation? Are they integrated? Can we not segregate they integrated? Can we not segregate they integrated? Can we not segregate based on gender or based on age? Are our based on gender or based on age? Are our based on gender or based on age? Are our leadership development systems leadership development systems leadership development systems integrated? I I'm not a fan of women get integrated? I I'm not a fan of women get integrated? I I'm not a fan of women get trained over here and men get trained trained over here and men get trained trained over here and men get trained over here. we actually have to work over here. we actually have to work over here. we actually have to work together and learn together in order to together and learn together in order to together and learn together in order to lead together. So integrating those lead together. So integrating those lead together. So integrating those things. So when I think of when I think things. So when I think of when I think things. So when I think of when I think of like scripture of John 17 when Jesus of like scripture of John 17 when Jesus of like scripture of John 17 when Jesus looks into the future and he sees us the

looks into the future and he sees us the looks into the future and he sees us the disciples yet to come, he prays for disciples yet to come, he prays for disciples yet to come, he prays for unity. He prays for oneness. He prays unity. He prays for oneness. He prays unity. He prays for oneness. He prays for integration. And I think that's the for integration. And I think that's the for integration. And I think that's the precipice that we're on. I think this precipice that we're on. I think this precipice that we're on. I think this next generation knows how to do it next generation knows how to do it next generation knows how to do it fluently. I think if we invite them to fluently. I think if we invite them to fluently. I think if we invite them to the table, they'll teach us about it. I the table, they'll teach us about it. I the table, they'll teach us about it. I think if we have more women at the think if we have more women at the think if we have more women at the leadership table, we'll solve issues of leadership table, we'll solve issues of leadership table, we'll solve issues of community and people feeling known and community and people feeling known and community and people feeling known and how to care for people because women how to care for people because women how to care for people because women naturally bring those skills to the naturally bring those skills to the naturally bring those skills to the table. That's the piece that we haven't table. That's the piece that we haven't table. That's the piece that we haven't um opened ourselves up to. Even if your um opened ourselves up to. Even if your um opened ourselves up to. Even if your theology prevents your highest level theology prevents your highest level theology prevents your highest level leaders from being women that I'm not leaders from being women that I'm not leaders from being women that I'm not going to take on that battle, but I'm going to take on that battle, but I'm going to take on that battle, but I'm like the other 95% of the leadership like the other 95% of the leadership like the other 95% of the leadership roles you have probably can have a woman roles you have probably can have a woman roles you have probably can have a woman bring her gifting and her ability as bring her gifting and her ability as bring her gifting and her ability as well as other ages and all sorts of well as other ages and all sorts of well as other ages and all sorts of diversity to the table. Those are the diversity to the table. Those are the diversity to the table. Those are the things we need to be focused on. And if things we need to be focused on. And if things we need to be focused on. And if we can do that in small winds in every we can do that in small winds in every we can do that in small winds in every church, I think we will see greater church, I think we will see greater church, I think we will see greater movement than a few big churches doing movement than a few big churches doing movement than a few big churches doing big wins that don't last. big wins that don't last. big wins that don't last. >> So you may have already just answered >> So you may have already just answered >> So you may have already just answered this question in fuller in part, but in this question in fuller in part, but in this question in fuller in part, but in case not, you've worked with churches case not, you've worked with churches case not, you've worked with churches that have done a great job, that have done a great job, that have done a great job, complimentarian, egalitarian, of complimentarian, egalitarian, of complimentarian, egalitarian, of integrating women into ministry over the integrating women into ministry over the integrating women into ministry over the last 20, 25 years.

last 20, 25 years. last 20, 25 years. What are churches who are having success What are churches who are having success What are churches who are having success in engaging women doing that everyone in engaging women doing that everyone in engaging women doing that everyone else could learn from? else could learn from? else could learn from? >> Great question. Yes. >> Great question. Yes. >> Great question. Yes. >> Um I definitely think this idea of >> Um I definitely think this idea of >> Um I definitely think this idea of prioritizing emotional uh intelligence prioritizing emotional uh intelligence prioritizing emotional uh intelligence and relational leadership as a core and relational leadership as a core and relational leadership as a core competency of pastoral leadership is competency of pastoral leadership is competency of pastoral leadership is really critical. And part of that is really critical. And part of that is really critical. And part of that is being honest that we have leaders who being honest that we have leaders who being honest that we have leaders who are great at that that we're that are are great at that that we're that are are great at that that we're that are that might be women that we are not uh that might be women that we are not uh that might be women that we are not uh elevating into leadership, but we also elevating into leadership, but we also elevating into leadership, but we also have men who are bad at this and we're have men who are bad at this and we're have men who are bad at this and we're keeping them in leadership even though keeping them in leadership even though keeping them in leadership even though they're incompetent. and the they're incompetent. and the they're incompetent. and the incompetence of some male pastors that incompetence of some male pastors that incompetence of some male pastors that are um causing havoc in their ministry, are um causing havoc in their ministry, are um causing havoc in their ministry, derailing what the church is really derailing what the church is really derailing what the church is really about, hurting people along the way, and about, hurting people along the way, and about, hurting people along the way, and usually there's women underneath them usually there's women underneath them usually there's women underneath them trying to make it work, but not being trying to make it work, but not being trying to make it work, but not being promoted into the role of influence. promoted into the role of influence. promoted into the role of influence. That is a major piece that when we start That is a major piece that when we start That is a major piece that when we start to um really talk about that competency to um really talk about that competency to um really talk about that competency and hold people to it, it brings men up and hold people to it, it brings men up and hold people to it, it brings men up in their competency, but it also makes in their competency, but it also makes in their competency, but it also makes space for women to excel at greater space for women to excel at greater space for women to excel at greater levels. So that piece is a big one. Um I levels. So that piece is a big one. Um I levels. So that piece is a big one. Um I think this idea of integrating women think this idea of integrating women think this idea of integrating women into our developmental pathways uh into our developmental pathways uh into our developmental pathways uh really intentionally, particularly really intentionally, particularly really intentionally, particularly leadership development makes a really leadership development makes a really leadership development makes a really huge difference. And with that comes huge difference. And with that comes huge difference. And with that comes elevating women into roles, making sure elevating women into roles, making sure elevating women into roles, making sure you have two women on your leadership you have two women on your leadership you have two women on your leadership team, using women on the platform.

team, using women on the platform. team, using women on the platform. Again, not in violation of your Again, not in violation of your Again, not in violation of your theology, but allowing the congregation theology, but allowing the congregation theology, but allowing the congregation to see women lead. And Sunday morning is to see women lead. And Sunday morning is to see women lead. And Sunday morning is where we communicate our culture more where we communicate our culture more where we communicate our culture more than any other time in the church. And than any other time in the church. And than any other time in the church. And when you give her a microphone, even for when you give her a microphone, even for when you give her a microphone, even for the announcements, it changes what the the announcements, it changes what the the announcements, it changes what the congregation thinks about women and what congregation thinks about women and what congregation thinks about women and what they think about themselves. Um I think they think about themselves. Um I think they think about themselves. Um I think third, this idea of being highly third, this idea of being highly third, this idea of being highly transparent around how power, transparent around how power, transparent around how power, accountability, and sin work in the accountability, and sin work in the accountability, and sin work in the church. This will be a commodity of church. This will be a commodity of church. This will be a commodity of faithful, trusted churches of the faithful, trusted churches of the faithful, trusted churches of the future. And we've shifted. I've been in future. And we've shifted. I've been in future. And we've shifted. I've been in church a long time. Um, precoid, we church a long time. Um, precoid, we church a long time. Um, precoid, we dealt with sin pretty hush hush. Like we dealt with sin pretty hush hush. Like we dealt with sin pretty hush hush. Like we we didn't want to disparrage the church. we didn't want to disparrage the church. we didn't want to disparrage the church. We didn't want to harm the families of We didn't want to harm the families of We didn't want to harm the families of the people involved or the kids that are the people involved or the kids that are the people involved or the kids that are the innocent bystanders of their dad who the innocent bystanders of their dad who the innocent bystanders of their dad who did something bad. Like we were very did something bad. Like we were very did something bad. Like we were very protective. But that is not the way that protective. But that is not the way that protective. But that is not the way that we handle that anymore. I walked several we handle that anymore. I walked several we handle that anymore. I walked several churches uh since co through moral churches uh since co through moral churches uh since co through moral failings. And I um two in particular failings. And I um two in particular failings. And I um two in particular that were very excellent at being that were very excellent at being that were very excellent at being upfront about the transgression. Um upfront about the transgression. Um upfront about the transgression. Um being clear on who it was, making the being clear on who it was, making the being clear on who it was, making the circle wide, not small, on who knew that circle wide, not small, on who knew that circle wide, not small, on who knew that something had happened. Didn't mean that something had happened. Didn't mean that something had happened. Didn't mean that it needed a Sunday announcement, but the it needed a Sunday announcement, but the it needed a Sunday announcement, but the people who are involved or could have people who are involved or could have people who are involved or could have been involved or investigating are is been involved or investigating are is been involved or investigating are is there more here than what we know about there more here than what we know about there more here than what we know about and we actually want to know if this has and we actually want to know if this has and we actually want to know if this has happened to someone else. those wide happened to someone else. those wide happened to someone else. those wide nets, those very transparent

nets, those very transparent nets, those very transparent conversations um actually build trust. conversations um actually build trust. conversations um actually build trust. They don't derail it in today's culture. They don't derail it in today's culture. They don't derail it in today's culture. Uh they had people come back and their Uh they had people come back and their Uh they had people come back and their their attendance went up. They had their attendance went up. They had their attendance went up. They had people come back and email, "Thank you people come back and email, "Thank you people come back and email, "Thank you for that. Now I know I can trust my for that. Now I know I can trust my for that. Now I know I can trust my church because if you handle this kind church because if you handle this kind church because if you handle this kind of thing well, I know you'll handle of thing well, I know you'll handle of thing well, I know you'll handle bigger things well." So, how we handle bigger things well." So, how we handle bigger things well." So, how we handle that really matters. And being really that really matters. And being really that really matters. And being really clear about authority and power and clear about authority and power and clear about authority and power and accountability and upfront with it. accountability and upfront with it. accountability and upfront with it. people knowing how to access if they people knowing how to access if they people knowing how to access if they know something's wrong. All of that know something's wrong. All of that know something's wrong. All of that really matters. And then I think the really matters. And then I think the really matters. And then I think the last one is just casting a vision for last one is just casting a vision for last one is just casting a vision for women. I think one of the things we're women. I think one of the things we're women. I think one of the things we're seeing in this resurgent for young men, seeing in this resurgent for young men, seeing in this resurgent for young men, which I am so thrilled about, by the which I am so thrilled about, by the which I am so thrilled about, by the way, I'm thrilled. You're the mom of way, I'm thrilled. You're the mom of way, I'm thrilled. You're the mom of everyone. Yes, I have a young adult son. everyone. Yes, I have a young adult son. everyone. Yes, I have a young adult son. I want this to be true. But I, you know, I want this to be true. But I, you know, I want this to be true. But I, you know, it kind of brings me back to the days of it kind of brings me back to the days of it kind of brings me back to the days of my growing up years, my 20s, where we my growing up years, my 20s, where we my growing up years, my 20s, where we had promisekeepers and women of faith. had promisekeepers and women of faith. had promisekeepers and women of faith. And I saw these men come back from And I saw these men come back from And I saw these men come back from promisekeepers and they're like, "We're promisekeepers and they're like, "We're promisekeepers and they're like, "We're on fire. We're we went down to the on fire. We're we went down to the on fire. We're we went down to the front. We all have a baton that they front. We all have a baton that they front. We all have a baton that they gave us and like we're passing it on to gave us and like we're passing it on to gave us and like we're passing it on to the next generation." They are fired up.

the next generation." They are fired up. the next generation." They are fired up. And our church changed after we took a And our church changed after we took a And our church changed after we took a hundred men there. So when women of hundred men there. So when women of hundred men there. So when women of faith came along, I'm like, I am in. And faith came along, I'm like, I am in. And faith came along, I'm like, I am in. And it was a very different experience. I it was a very different experience. I it was a very different experience. I was like I I learned about how my was like I I learned about how my was like I I learned about how my emotions control my life and I was given emotions control my life and I was given emotions control my life and I was given a candle and a picture frame and there a candle and a picture frame and there a candle and a picture frame and there was not a lot of vision. There was not a was not a lot of vision. There was not a was not a lot of vision. There was not a lot of callup especially for someone lot of callup especially for someone lot of callup especially for someone with leadership gifts and I'm in my 20s. with leadership gifts and I'm in my 20s. with leadership gifts and I'm in my 20s. I'm completely idealistic about the I'm completely idealistic about the I'm completely idealistic about the kingdom. Like women long for that also. kingdom. Like women long for that also. kingdom. Like women long for that also. And so you know I think some churches And so you know I think some churches And so you know I think some churches are like we're giving a heavy-handed are like we're giving a heavy-handed are like we're giving a heavy-handed vision cast to young men. We're um we're vision cast to young men. We're um we're vision cast to young men. We're um we're calling them to discipline. We're calling them to discipline. We're calling them to discipline. We're calling them to sacrifice. We're calling calling them to sacrifice. We're calling calling them to sacrifice. We're calling them to obedience. And I would just say them to obedience. And I would just say them to obedience. And I would just say that's exactly the call women should be that's exactly the call women should be that's exactly the call women should be having. Jesus doesn't discriminate on having. Jesus doesn't discriminate on having. Jesus doesn't discriminate on gender to calling as a disciple. And so gender to calling as a disciple. And so gender to calling as a disciple. And so please just call everybody. This is part please just call everybody. This is part please just call everybody. This is part of the integration conversation. Can you of the integration conversation. Can you of the integration conversation. Can you just call every young person to just call every young person to just call every young person to discipline, every young person to discipline, every young person to discipline, every young person to obedience, every young person to obedience, every young person to obedience, every young person to sacrifice. Uh it's a call everyone's sacrifice. Uh it's a call everyone's sacrifice. Uh it's a call everyone's spirit will resonate with. And even if spirit will resonate with. And even if spirit will resonate with. And even if you're insecure about it, I would just you're insecure about it, I would just you're insecure about it, I would just say go big. I women tend to shrink say go big. I women tend to shrink say go big. I women tend to shrink themselves down. I often remind people themselves down. I often remind people themselves down. I often remind people like I do not see a gender specific like I do not see a gender specific like I do not see a gender specific calling in the Bible anywhere. I can't calling in the Bible anywhere. I can't calling in the Bible anywhere. I can't find one. I cannot find one person in find one. I cannot find one person in find one. I cannot find one person in scripture that God calls to a single scripture that God calls to a single scripture that God calls to a single gender. But we do this to ourselves all gender. But we do this to ourselves all gender. But we do this to ourselves all the time. And I just challenge you think the time. And I just challenge you think the time. And I just challenge you think you might be called to speak to men you might be called to speak to men you might be called to speak to men about this, but maybe you're called to about this, but maybe you're called to about this, but maybe you're called to speak to everybody about it. Maybe you speak to everybody about it. Maybe you speak to everybody about it. Maybe you feel called just to women, but maybe God feel called just to women, but maybe God feel called just to women, but maybe God has your voice for more than just women.

has your voice for more than just women. has your voice for more than just women. Don't limit God's calling on a uh Don't limit God's calling on a uh Don't limit God's calling on a uh culturally imposed box. Be open to how culturally imposed box. Be open to how culturally imposed box. Be open to how he might want to use you in the kingdom he might want to use you in the kingdom he might want to use you in the kingdom for everyone who hears what he's given for everyone who hears what he's given for everyone who hears what he's given you to say. you to say. you to say. >> You started by talking about emotional >> You started by talking about emotional >> You started by talking about emotional intelligence and that there are probably intelligence and that there are probably intelligence and that there are probably some women listening who would identify some women listening who would identify some women listening who would identify themselves. Yes. my lead pastor, my boss themselves. Yes. my lead pastor, my boss themselves. Yes. my lead pastor, my boss totally not emotionally intelligent, totally not emotionally intelligent, totally not emotionally intelligent, doing things that are just shooting doing things that are just shooting doing things that are just shooting everybody in the foot, you know, and everybody in the foot, you know, and everybody in the foot, you know, and what are some red flags that someone what are some red flags that someone what are some red flags that someone doesn't have the emotional intelligence doesn't have the emotional intelligence doesn't have the emotional intelligence that is required to lead in our day and that is required to lead in our day and that is required to lead in our day and age? Mhm. I think when uh I'm going to age? Mhm. I think when uh I'm going to age? Mhm. I think when uh I'm going to talk particularly about people in talk particularly about people in talk particularly about people in pastoral roles because I think that's pastoral roles because I think that's pastoral roles because I think that's that I'm not talking about the director that I'm not talking about the director that I'm not talking about the director of finance or you know whoever on your of finance or you know whoever on your of finance or you know whoever on your team. I people who carry the title team. I people who carry the title team. I people who carry the title pastor. pastor. pastor. >> Um we're looking for someone who leans >> Um we're looking for someone who leans >> Um we're looking for someone who leans into people's pain. Uh knows how to hold into people's pain. Uh knows how to hold into people's pain. Uh knows how to hold space for doubt and questions and even space for doubt and questions and even space for doubt and questions and even complaints. Um person who asks curious complaints. Um person who asks curious complaints. Um person who asks curious questions. someone who's managing their questions. someone who's managing their questions. someone who's managing their own emotions. Well, that's probably the own emotions. Well, that's probably the own emotions. Well, that's probably the number one red flag is that when it's number one red flag is that when it's number one red flag is that when it's really hard to help other people, um really hard to help other people, um really hard to help other people, um it's really hard to practice emotional it's really hard to practice emotional it's really hard to practice emotional intelligence and create space for other intelligence and create space for other intelligence and create space for other people if you aren't managing your own people if you aren't managing your own people if you aren't managing your own emotions well. And so, emotional emotions well. And so, emotional emotions well. And so, emotional attunement to yourself, the ability to attunement to yourself, the ability to attunement to yourself, the ability to uh calm and regulate your emotions, um

uh calm and regulate your emotions, um uh calm and regulate your emotions, um connect with other people, navigate connect with other people, navigate connect with other people, navigate stress, correct things when you've stress, correct things when you've stress, correct things when you've overstepped. So, I blew up in a meeting. overstepped. So, I blew up in a meeting. overstepped. So, I blew up in a meeting. I know how to heal those relationships I know how to heal those relationships I know how to heal those relationships and restore community among my team. Um, and restore community among my team. Um, and restore community among my team. Um, and they take emotions seriously. I and they take emotions seriously. I and they take emotions seriously. I those are off the top of my head. I'm those are off the top of my head. I'm those are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are scientific things, but sure there are scientific things, but sure there are scientific things, but >> it feels like it's somehow related to to >> it feels like it's somehow related to to >> it feels like it's somehow related to to culture, like a healthy culture versus a culture, like a healthy culture versus a culture, like a healthy culture versus a toxic culture. Is it somewhat related to toxic culture. Is it somewhat related to toxic culture. Is it somewhat related to that? that? that? >> Oh, definitely. I think uh emotions play >> Oh, definitely. I think uh emotions play >> Oh, definitely. I think uh emotions play a much bigger role than many of us a much bigger role than many of us a much bigger role than many of us realize. I think sometimes we separate realize. I think sometimes we separate realize. I think sometimes we separate emotions and spirituality. They're very emotions and spirituality. They're very emotions and spirituality. They're very integrated and so uh emotions are often integrated and so uh emotions are often integrated and so uh emotions are often I usually like to say uh every emotion I usually like to say uh every emotion I usually like to say uh every emotion emotion matters. We should listen to emotion matters. We should listen to emotion matters. We should listen to every feeling. You just can't trust the every feeling. You just can't trust the every feeling. You just can't trust the volume. So sometimes you might be really volume. So sometimes you might be really volume. So sometimes you might be really upset about something. It's a very big upset about something. It's a very big upset about something. It's a very big volume in your heart. But in reality volume in your heart. But in reality volume in your heart. But in reality it's a very small thing. And other times it's a very small thing. And other times it's a very small thing. And other times you have a very small, very quiet, very you have a very small, very quiet, very you have a very small, very quiet, very whisper emotion or feeling or reaction whisper emotion or feeling or reaction whisper emotion or feeling or reaction and it actually means something really and it actually means something really and it actually means something really big. And so everything needs to be big. And so everything needs to be big. And so everything needs to be attuned for. We just uh have to decipher attuned for. We just uh have to decipher attuned for. We just uh have to decipher through what's actually important and through what's actually important and through what's actually important and not and what kind of ways do we address not and what kind of ways do we address not and what kind of ways do we address it.

it. it. >> Katie, if somebody came to a church >> Katie, if somebody came to a church >> Katie, if somebody came to a church leader, a pastor, let's say it's a male leader, a pastor, let's say it's a male leader, a pastor, let's say it's a male pastor, and said, "Okay, I want to get pastor, and said, "Okay, I want to get pastor, and said, "Okay, I want to get better at this. I want to make this a better at this. I want to make this a better at this. I want to make this a church that ministers to the whole body church that ministers to the whole body church that ministers to the whole body of Christ. We're complimentarian or of Christ. We're complimentarian or of Christ. We're complimentarian or egalitarian, doesn't really matter, but egalitarian, doesn't really matter, but egalitarian, doesn't really matter, but I just I just want to honor the women I just I just want to honor the women I just I just want to honor the women that God has in our midst." that God has in our midst." that God has in our midst." What would be one question or one piece What would be one question or one piece What would be one question or one piece of advice you would give that pastor to of advice you would give that pastor to of advice you would give that pastor to make their church a more receptive and make their church a more receptive and make their church a more receptive and safe place for women? safe place for women? safe place for women? >> That's a great question. I think uh >> That's a great question. I think uh >> That's a great question. I think uh there's a lot of things that come to there's a lot of things that come to there's a lot of things that come to mind. Um I I probably have two thoughts. mind. Um I I probably have two thoughts. mind. Um I I probably have two thoughts. I think the one thought is to um one I think the one thought is to um one I think the one thought is to um one requires very little change. So whatever requires very little change. So whatever requires very little change. So whatever you're doing, do an analysis of it and you're doing, do an analysis of it and you're doing, do an analysis of it and make sure you're being equitable in your make sure you're being equitable in your make sure you're being equitable in your leadership to both men and women. So if leadership to both men and women. So if leadership to both men and women. So if you are if you're the preacher and you you are if you're the preacher and you you are if you're the preacher and you love to use real life stories from the love to use real life stories from the love to use real life stories from the congregation, challenge yourself to use congregation, challenge yourself to use congregation, challenge yourself to use just as many stories about women leaders just as many stories about women leaders just as many stories about women leaders as male leaders. So always use stories.

as male leaders. So always use stories. as male leaders. So always use stories. It doesn't have to be all women, but It doesn't have to be all women, but It doesn't have to be all women, but just make sure you're make you're just make sure you're make you're just make sure you're make you're representing both really well. If you're representing both really well. If you're representing both really well. If you're teaching from scripture and you're um teaching from scripture and you're um teaching from scripture and you're um doing sermon series, making sure you're doing sermon series, making sure you're doing sermon series, making sure you're teaching about women from the Bible. teaching about women from the Bible. teaching about women from the Bible. Also, I grew up in a church where I Also, I grew up in a church where I Also, I grew up in a church where I never heard one sermon about women never heard one sermon about women never heard one sermon about women unless you were a mom or a prostitute. I unless you were a mom or a prostitute. I unless you were a mom or a prostitute. I kind of thought those were the only kind of thought those were the only kind of thought those were the only options. So, [laughter] there's a lot options. So, [laughter] there's a lot options. So, [laughter] there's a lot more women in scripture. And so, just more women in scripture. And so, just more women in scripture. And so, just make sure you're giving a full gender make sure you're giving a full gender make sure you're giving a full gender diet in your ministry. So, as as you're diet in your ministry. So, as as you're diet in your ministry. So, as as you're meeting with leaders one-on-one and meeting with leaders one-on-one and meeting with leaders one-on-one and doing leadership development, making doing leadership development, making doing leadership development, making sure you're having lunch with men and sure you're having lunch with men and sure you're having lunch with men and women. Now, you may have some women. Now, you may have some women. Now, you may have some professional guidelines about that. So, professional guidelines about that. So, professional guidelines about that. So, if you can't go out to lunch with women, if you can't go out to lunch with women, if you can't go out to lunch with women, don't go out to lunch with men. Just don't go out to lunch with men. Just don't go out to lunch with men. Just make it the same. Just make sure you're make it the same. Just make sure you're make it the same. Just make sure you're consistently leading and being consistently leading and being consistently leading and being equitable. Just that one challenge could equitable. Just that one challenge could equitable. Just that one challenge could change a lot for the women in your change a lot for the women in your change a lot for the women in your church and it would teach men to think church and it would teach men to think church and it would teach men to think differently about the women in your differently about the women in your differently about the women in your church also. And then I think um the church also. And then I think um the church also. And then I think um the second piece is to um really think about second piece is to um really think about second piece is to um really think about this world of safety for women. I think this world of safety for women. I think this world of safety for women. I think it's really hard for most men to it's really hard for most men to it's really hard for most men to understand understand understand um the core need for safety that God has um the core need for safety that God has um the core need for safety that God has put in women because we are more put in women because we are more put in women because we are more vulnerable in more ways. And it in all vulnerable in more ways. And it in all vulnerable in more ways. And it in all the marriage research you find that um the marriage research you find that um the marriage research you find that um women's need for safety is one of the women's need for safety is one of the women's need for safety is one of the top needs in marriage. But it's actually top needs in marriage. But it's actually top needs in marriage. But it's actually just a top need as a woman. And I didn't just a top need as a woman. And I didn't just a top need as a woman. And I didn't really realize how hard this was for men really realize how hard this was for men really realize how hard this was for men to understand till I had a young adult to understand till I had a young adult to understand till I had a young adult son. He's like 18. And I'm like, "All

son. He's like 18. And I'm like, "All son. He's like 18. And I'm like, "All right, when you go on your first flight right, when you go on your first flight right, when you go on your first flight by yourself, you want to park in the by yourself, you want to park in the by yourself, you want to park in the parking garage near the elevator under a parking garage near the elevator under a parking garage near the elevator under a light." And he's like, "Why?" And I'm light." And he's like, "Why?" And I'm light." And he's like, "Why?" And I'm like, "Because if there's anyone in the like, "Because if there's anyone in the like, "Because if there's anyone in the garage waiting for you, you want to have garage waiting for you, you want to have garage waiting for you, you want to have a short distance." He's like, "Mom, I a short distance." He's like, "Mom, I a short distance." He's like, "Mom, I don't need to worry about do you worry don't need to worry about do you worry don't need to worry about do you worry about that?" And I'm like, "I worry about that?" And I'm like, "I worry about that?" And I'm like, "I worry about that. Every time I park anywhere, about that. Every time I park anywhere, about that. Every time I park anywhere, I'm thinking about that." And so that I'm thinking about that." And so that I'm thinking about that." And so that kind of ability to create safety in your kind of ability to create safety in your kind of ability to create safety in your environments and be aware of what women environments and be aware of what women environments and be aware of what women live with and the number of women who live with and the number of women who live with and the number of women who have experienced abuse and now that have experienced abuse and now that have experienced abuse and now that abuse has infected the church. Whether abuse has infected the church. Whether abuse has infected the church. Whether it's happened at your church or under it's happened at your church or under it's happened at your church or under your leadership or not, we all know it. your leadership or not, we all know it. your leadership or not, we all know it. And we're all on high alert. We're on And we're all on high alert. We're on And we're all on high alert. We're on high alert about our kids. We are on high alert about our kids. We are on high alert about our kids. We are on high alert about walking out in the high alert about walking out in the high alert about walking out in the church parking lot late because I stayed church parking lot late because I stayed church parking lot late because I stayed in stuffed turkeys for Thanksgiving in stuffed turkeys for Thanksgiving in stuffed turkeys for Thanksgiving dinner. We're on high alert about all dinner. We're on high alert about all dinner. We're on high alert about all those things. And so that safety around those things. And so that safety around those things. And so that safety around physical safety but also emotional physical safety but also emotional physical safety but also emotional safety, spiritual safety, all of those safety, spiritual safety, all of those safety, spiritual safety, all of those pieces are a huge commodity and the pieces are a huge commodity and the pieces are a huge commodity and the churches that are leading in that are churches that are leading in that are churches that are leading in that are creating places where people feel safe creating places where people feel safe creating places where people feel safe to also explore their faith.

to also explore their faith. to also explore their faith. >> What is one question about women in >> What is one question about women in >> What is one question about women in ministry ministry ministry that needs to be asked that we haven't that needs to be asked that we haven't that needs to be asked that we haven't asked? asked? asked? [laughter] I think, oh gosh, I think, oh gosh, honestly, I think if every leader could honestly, I think if every leader could honestly, I think if every leader could just stop for a minute and imagine their just stop for a minute and imagine their just stop for a minute and imagine their church with even just 50% more amazing church with even just 50% more amazing church with even just 50% more amazing leaders in your ranks, wherever you want leaders in your ranks, wherever you want leaders in your ranks, wherever you want to put them. If you want to put them in to put them. If you want to put them in to put them. If you want to put them in small groups, you want to put them in small groups, you want to put them in small groups, you want to put them in kids ministry, if you want to put them kids ministry, if you want to put them kids ministry, if you want to put them on the worship team, if you want to put on the worship team, if you want to put on the worship team, if you want to put them on the leadership team, if you want them on the leadership team, if you want them on the leadership team, if you want to have them launch new campuses and to have them launch new campuses and to have them launch new campuses and plant new churches, but just imagine plant new churches, but just imagine plant new churches, but just imagine yourself with 50% more leaders who are yourself with 50% more leaders who are yourself with 50% more leaders who are godly and faithful and want to follow godly and faithful and want to follow godly and faithful and want to follow you and believe in the vision and the you and believe in the vision and the you and believe in the vision and the mission of your church and want to give mission of your church and want to give mission of your church and want to give sacrificially and want to bring all that sacrificially and want to bring all that sacrificially and want to bring all that they have to the kingdom through your they have to the kingdom through your they have to the kingdom through your local church. What would that change in local church. What would that change in local church. What would that change in your church in the next 12 months or 3 your church in the next 12 months or 3 your church in the next 12 months or 3 years? What would be different?

years? What would be different? years? What would be different? >> That's the vision that I think if we >> That's the vision that I think if we >> That's the vision that I think if we could capture something like that, we could capture something like that, we could capture something like that, we would open up doors for women that we would open up doors for women that we would open up doors for women that we just haven't even thought of right now. just haven't even thought of right now. just haven't even thought of right now. >> Katie, I can't thank you enough. This is >> Katie, I can't thank you enough. This is >> Katie, I can't thank you enough. This is uh part of an ongoing uh part of an ongoing uh part of an ongoing question we're going to keep asking over question we're going to keep asking over question we're going to keep asking over the next little while. I think you the next little while. I think you the next little while. I think you framed it really, really well. And framed it really, really well. And framed it really, really well. And hopefully, you know, people are engaging hopefully, you know, people are engaging hopefully, you know, people are engaging this at a level, at a human level, at a this at a level, at a human level, at a this at a level, at a human level, at a theological level to realize we can do theological level to realize we can do theological level to realize we can do better in the church. We can do better. better in the church. We can do better. better in the church. We can do better. By the way, highly recommend Developing By the way, highly recommend Developing By the way, highly recommend Developing Female Leaders, Katie. Was that your Female Leaders, Katie. Was that your Female Leaders, Katie. Was that your first book? first book? first book? >> It was. Mhm. >> It was. Mhm. >> It was. Mhm. >> Yeah. It's a great book, man. You could >> Yeah. It's a great book, man. You could >> Yeah. It's a great book, man. You could retire after that. I know you didn't, retire after that. I know you didn't, retire after that. I know you didn't, but it's a great book. [snorts] Highly but it's a great book. [snorts] Highly but it's a great book. [snorts] Highly recommend it. And again, you have that recommend it. And again, you have that recommend it. And again, you have that respectful, hey, if you're respectful, hey, if you're respectful, hey, if you're complimentarian, if you're egalitarian, complimentarian, if you're egalitarian, complimentarian, if you're egalitarian, we all have stuff to learn. So, I really we all have stuff to learn. So, I really we all have stuff to learn. So, I really appreciate about you. So, we'll appreciate about you. So, we'll appreciate about you. So, we'll definitely link to that in the show definitely link to that in the show definitely link to that in the show notes. notes. notes. >> If there's uh you've got a brand new >> If there's uh you've got a brand new >> If there's uh you've got a brand new podcast, too. So, tell us about that. podcast, too. So, tell us about that. podcast, too. So, tell us about that. >> I do. I've uh launched a new ministry >> I do. I've uh launched a new ministry >> I do. I've uh launched a new ministry called uh female church leaders and we called uh female church leaders and we called uh female church leaders and we have a podcast called the female church have a podcast called the female church have a podcast called the female church leaders podcast and a cohort um that we leaders podcast and a cohort um that we leaders podcast and a cohort um that we really focus on helping women who are really focus on helping women who are really focus on helping women who are leading a church ministry close their leading a church ministry close their leading a church ministry close their leadership gap um and catch up to some leadership gap um and catch up to some leadership gap um and catch up to some of the things they've probably been left of the things they've probably been left of the things they've probably been left out of to make them more effective for out of to make them more effective for out of to make them more effective for the kingdom. So we're excited about the kingdom. So we're excited about the kingdom. So we're excited about that. We've seen some really dramatic that. We've seen some really dramatic that. We've seen some really dramatic results. So I'm really excited to be results. So I'm really excited to be results. So I'm really excited to be pouring into women more. Also, pouring into women more. Also, pouring into women more. Also, >> do you have a link to that? um >> do you have a link to that? um >> do you have a link to that? um >> closing the leadershipgap.com and you >> closing the leadershipgap.com and you >> closing the leadershipgap.com and you can find us on Instagram at female can find us on Instagram at female can find us on Instagram at female church leaders.

church leaders. church leaders. >> Awesome Katie. I can't thank you enough. >> Awesome Katie. I can't thank you enough. >> Awesome Katie. I can't thank you enough. >> Thank you, Carrie. Really appreciate and >> Thank you, Carrie. Really appreciate and >> Thank you, Carrie. Really appreciate and really appreciate you taking the time to really appreciate you taking the time to really appreciate you taking the time to open up this conversation for all of us. open up this conversation for all of us. open up this conversation for all of us. >> That's a big one. It's an important one >> That's a big one. It's an important one >> That's a big one. It's an important one >> and you've you've made it a lot uh >> and you've you've made it a lot uh >> and you've you've made it a lot uh you've illumined a lot. I have stuff to you've illumined a lot. I have stuff to you've illumined a lot. I have stuff to think about as well. So, thank you. think about as well. So, thank you. think about as well. So, thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Thanks so much. >> Thanks so much. >> Well, I hope that was helpful to you. It >> Well, I hope that was helpful to you. It >> Well, I hope that was helpful to you. It was really helpful to me. And we're not was really helpful to me. And we're not was really helpful to me. And we're not going to finish the conversation here. going to finish the conversation here. going to finish the conversation here. We'll pick this up in future episodes. I We'll pick this up in future episodes. I We'll pick this up in future episodes. I hope you'll check out Katie's resources. hope you'll check out Katie's resources. hope you'll check out Katie's resources. Going to be really interested to see Going to be really interested to see Going to be really interested to see hopefully what constructively people are hopefully what constructively people are hopefully what constructively people are talking about in the comments. And talking about in the comments. And talking about in the comments. And speaking of constructive conversation, speaking of constructive conversation, speaking of constructive conversation, if you haven't yet joined my Art of if you haven't yet joined my Art of if you haven't yet joined my Art of Leadership Academy, there's over 17 Leadership Academy, there's over 17 Leadership Academy, there's over 17 18,000 leaders in the academy. Would 18,000 leaders in the academy. Would 18,000 leaders in the academy. Would love to have you join us and go to the love to have you join us and go to the love to have you join us and go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. There you're going to find the show There you're going to find the show There you're going to find the show notes. You'll find some really notes. You'll find some really notes. You'll find some really respectful conversation from people on respectful conversation from people on respectful conversation from people on every side of an issue. I think you're every side of an issue. I think you're every side of an issue. I think you're really going to enjoy it there. Next up, really going to enjoy it there. Next up, really going to enjoy it there. Next up, we have got coming up on future editions we have got coming up on future editions we have got coming up on future editions of the podcast, JJ and Kate Tomlin of the podcast, JJ and Kate Tomlin of the podcast, JJ and Kate Tomlin talking about dating advice and why so talking about dating advice and why so talking about dating advice and why so much of what we say no longer applies.

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