You're Not Ready for Revival: Domenic Ruso on a New Kind of Secularism & Reaching UnReachable People

There's a leadership crisis that I think There's a leadership crisis that I think in the life of the church and in the in the life of the church and in the in the life of the church and in the life of leadership. If God did a revival life of leadership. If God did a revival life of leadership. If God did a revival and brought us a thousand new people in and brought us a thousand new people in and brought us a thousand new people in our church, we'd be dead. Uh we wouldn't our church, we'd be dead. Uh we wouldn't our church, we'd be dead. Uh we wouldn't be ready. There's no way we'd be ready. be ready. There's no way we'd be ready. be ready. There's no way we'd be ready. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm on the road Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm on the road Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm on the road a lot and would love to meet you on the a lot and would love to meet you on the a lot and would love to meet you on the road. In fact, if you want to find out road. In fact, if you want to find out road. In fact, if you want to find out what's going on behind the scenes on what's going on behind the scenes on what's going on behind the scenes on this podcast, follow me on Instagram. this podcast, follow me on Instagram. this podcast, follow me on Instagram. Just Carrie Newuhof over there. Click Just Carrie Newuhof over there. Click Just Carrie Newuhof over there. Click the link. We'll get you right to it. For the link. We'll get you right to it. For the link. We'll get you right to it. For example, we'll take you behind the example, we'll take you behind the example, we'll take you behind the scenes at John Mark Comr's house and a scenes at John Mark Comr's house and a scenes at John Mark Comr's house and a whole lot more. But right now, I want to whole lot more. But right now, I want to whole lot more. But right now, I want to take you into a conversation with Dom take you into a conversation with Dom take you into a conversation with Dom Russo. Dom is a church leader in Russo. Dom is a church leader in Russo. Dom is a church leader in Montreal, Canada. And if you think it is Montreal, Canada. And if you think it is Montreal, Canada. And if you think it is hard soil where you're at, you got to hard soil where you're at, you got to hard soil where you're at, you got to meet Dom. My goodness, Montreal is a meet Dom. My goodness, Montreal is a meet Dom. My goodness, Montreal is a tough place to do ministry, but he's tough place to do ministry, but he's tough place to do ministry, but he's doing it. He's reaching people. And we doing it. He's reaching people. And we doing it. He's reaching people. And we talk about the new secularism, how to talk about the new secularism, how to talk about the new secularism, how to penetrate areas that really seem penetrate areas that really seem penetrate areas that really seem difficult and and hardened to the difficult and and hardened to the difficult and and hardened to the gospel. So with that in mind, let's jump gospel. So with that in mind, let's jump gospel. So with that in mind, let's jump right into my conversation with Dom right into my conversation with Dom right into my conversation with Dom Russo. Dom, it's so good to be together. Russo. Dom, it's so good to be together. Russo. Dom, it's so good to be together. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast. >> Awesome. This is great, Carrie. Great to >> Awesome. This is great, Carrie. Great to >> Awesome. This is great, Carrie. Great to be with you.

be with you. be with you. >> So, you know, you're in Montreal, you're >> So, you know, you're in Montreal, you're >> So, you know, you're in Montreal, you're in Quebec. Um, a lot of my listeners in Quebec. Um, a lot of my listeners in Quebec. Um, a lot of my listeners would be like, "It seems like some would be like, "It seems like some would be like, "It seems like some exotic land in the middle of nowhere." exotic land in the middle of nowhere." exotic land in the middle of nowhere." But you you are in uh a very different But you you are in uh a very different But you you are in uh a very different Christian environment, post-Christian Christian environment, post-Christian Christian environment, post-Christian environment maybe than we have even here environment maybe than we have even here environment maybe than we have even here north of Toronto or New York or LA or north of Toronto or New York or LA or north of Toronto or New York or LA or certainly different than the Bible belt. certainly different than the Bible belt. certainly different than the Bible belt. Can you just explain? I mean, Can you just explain? I mean, Can you just explain? I mean, >> kind of feels like a death sentence. Go >> kind of feels like a death sentence. Go >> kind of feels like a death sentence. Go plant a church in Montreal. I know plant a church in Montreal. I know plant a church in Montreal. I know people who planted churches in Montreal. people who planted churches in Montreal. people who planted churches in Montreal. It's like it's not that the ground is It's like it's not that the ground is It's like it's not that the ground is hard, it's that it's basically rock. So, hard, it's that it's basically rock. So, hard, it's that it's basically rock. So, just talk a little bit about the just talk a little bit about the just talk a little bit about the secularization that you've seen in secularization that you've seen in secularization that you've seen in Quebec since you've been there 9 years Quebec since you've been there 9 years Quebec since you've been there 9 years now. now. now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, I think it's it's a good place to >> No, I think it's it's a good place to >> No, I think it's it's a good place to start. I think uh for many people, start. I think uh for many people, start. I think uh for many people, Quebec is a place they visit as Quebec is a place they visit as Quebec is a place they visit as tourists. It's a beautiful place. tourists. It's a beautiful place. tourists. It's a beautiful place. >> Actually, it's great. We've been in >> Actually, it's great. We've been in >> Actually, it's great. We've been in Montreal and Quebec City. By the way, Montreal and Quebec City. By the way, Montreal and Quebec City. By the way, Quebec City is cheater Europe, guys. If Quebec City is cheater Europe, guys. If Quebec City is cheater Europe, guys. If you want to go to Europe, but you don't you want to go to Europe, but you don't you want to go to Europe, but you don't have the budget, go to Quebec City. It's have the budget, go to Quebec City. It's have the budget, go to Quebec City. It's incredible. incredible. incredible. >> It is, right? And it's one of the oldest >> It is, right? And it's one of the oldest >> It is, right? And it's one of the oldest places in North America.

places in North America. places in North America. >> Yeah. 1608. >> Yeah. 1608. >> Yeah. 1608. >> It's incredible. Right. So, so it is >> It's incredible. Right. So, so it is >> It's incredible. Right. So, so it is beautiful. But if you visit, you know, beautiful. But if you visit, you know, beautiful. But if you visit, you know, you visit these beautiful churches that you visit these beautiful churches that you visit these beautiful churches that are now museums. are now museums. are now museums. >> Churches have become kind of either >> Churches have become kind of either >> Churches have become kind of either multi-use facility Costco type places, multi-use facility Costco type places, multi-use facility Costco type places, right? And there's actually like right? And there's actually like right? And there's actually like heritage laws around preserving the heritage laws around preserving the heritage laws around preserving the memory of these churches. So, it's kind memory of these churches. So, it's kind memory of these churches. So, it's kind of strange like the government is of strange like the government is of strange like the government is involved in preserving these places, but involved in preserving these places, but involved in preserving these places, but the fabric of religious or Christian the fabric of religious or Christian the fabric of religious or Christian faith is kind of slowly leaking. that faith is kind of slowly leaking. that faith is kind of slowly leaking. that way. It is very much like Europe where way. It is very much like Europe where way. It is very much like Europe where there's a bit of revival going on in there's a bit of revival going on in there's a bit of revival going on in Europe, but it's these big cathedrals Europe, but it's these big cathedrals Europe, but it's these big cathedrals that are basically tourist attractions. that are basically tourist attractions. that are basically tourist attractions. >> Yeah. Often the phrase I've used uh when >> Yeah. Often the phrase I've used uh when >> Yeah. Often the phrase I've used uh when I talk about Quebec and what I'm I talk about Quebec and what I'm I talk about Quebec and what I'm learning is that Quebec is the place learning is that Quebec is the place learning is that Quebec is the place where all of your evangelistic ideas where all of your evangelistic ideas where all of your evangelistic ideas come to die, you know. So I I think it's come to die, you know. So I I think it's come to die, you know. So I I think it's the place where things that have worked the place where things that have worked the place where things that have worked in other places when they land in the in other places when they land in the in other places when they land in the secular post-Christian space that is, secular post-Christian space that is, secular post-Christian space that is, you know, Quebec. And I think more and you know, Quebec. And I think more and you know, Quebec. And I think more and more Canada and other places in North more Canada and other places in North more Canada and other places in North America, uh, you know, there's a sense America, uh, you know, there's a sense America, uh, you know, there's a sense that what we've done or what we've said that what we've done or what we've said that what we've done or what we've said or how we've articulated the faith is or how we've articulated the faith is or how we've articulated the faith is just not sticking anymore. And I use just not sticking anymore. And I use just not sticking anymore. And I use this story often with people when we this story often with people when we this story often with people when we first went back to plant a church. I first went back to plant a church. I first went back to plant a church. I shared with a neighbor that we were like shared with a neighbor that we were like shared with a neighbor that we were like thinking about this new church and the thinking about this new church and the thinking about this new church and the idea I would use with them is like it's idea I would use with them is like it's idea I would use with them is like it's like a startup because nobody has a like a startup because nobody has a like a startup because nobody has a category for starting a church, category for starting a church, category for starting a church, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Like if you say church plant, they're >> Like if you say church plant, they're >> Like if you say church plant, they're like church plant like what is that? like church plant like what is that? like church plant like what is that? >> Right? And so one person said to me, so >> Right? And so one person said to me, so >> Right? And so one person said to me, so when you start a church, do you call the when you start a church, do you call the when you start a church, do you call the pope to do that? pope to do that? pope to do that? >> And I was like that is a great quot like >> And I was like that is a great quot like >> And I was like that is a great quot like that's a great way of thinking about that's a great way of thinking about that's a great way of thinking about this. I'm like no. this. I'm like no. this. I'm like no. >> But I would figure that you would think >> But I would figure that you would think >> But I would figure that you would think that. that. that. >> Yeah. So I realized that even the most >> Yeah. So I realized that even the most >> Yeah. So I realized that even the most evangelistic, even the most aggressively evangelistic, even the most aggressively evangelistic, even the most aggressively exciting thing that is Christc centered, exciting thing that is Christc centered, exciting thing that is Christc centered, which is to start a church, doesn't which is to start a church, doesn't which is to start a church, doesn't translate for people. They're like, "We translate for people. They're like, "We translate for people. They're like, "We don't know what don't know what don't know what >> they don't have a category." >> they don't have a category." >> they don't have a category." >> No. And they're and and they're not even >> No. And they're and and they're not even >> No. And they're and and they're not even against it. They just don't know what it against it. They just don't know what it against it. They just don't know what it is. Which is interesting, you know, is. Which is interesting, you know, is. Which is interesting, you know, because you look at America in the 1950s because you look at America in the 1950s because you look at America in the 1950s and it was sort of the pinnacle of the and it was sort of the pinnacle of the and it was sort of the pinnacle of the church. And mainline Protestantism was church. And mainline Protestantism was church. And mainline Protestantism was really big, but evangelicalism was big, really big, but evangelicalism was big, really big, but evangelicalism was big, too. And then there was this big too. And then there was this big too. And then there was this big >> uh, you know, decline over 50, 60, 70 >> uh, you know, decline over 50, 60, 70 >> uh, you know, decline over 50, 60, 70 years. And now we're starting to see years. And now we're starting to see years. And now we're starting to see resurgence. Like the numbers are are resurgence. Like the numbers are are resurgence. Like the numbers are are turning around. But Quebec turning around. But Quebec turning around. But Quebec >> was deeply religious until the 1960s. >> was deeply religious until the 1960s. >> was deeply religious until the 1960s. And then there was I mean you study this And then there was I mean you study this And then there was I mean you study this in Canadian history this revolution in Canadian history this revolution in Canadian history this revolution where they went from the most religious where they went from the most religious where they went from the most religious of the provinces states in Ontario or in of the provinces states in Ontario or in of the provinces states in Ontario or in Canada Canada Canada >> to the most secular.

>> to the most secular. >> to the most secular. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like what what percentage of Kebeekqua >> Like what what percentage of Kebeekqua >> Like what what percentage of Kebeekqua would consider themselves Christian would consider themselves Christian would consider themselves Christian right now? right now? right now? >> Well, there's a vacuum in a sense. If >> Well, there's a vacuum in a sense. If >> Well, there's a vacuum in a sense. If you ask people in Quebec if they're you ask people in Quebec if they're you ask people in Quebec if they're Christian, there's a high number of Christian, there's a high number of Christian, there's a high number of people that would say yes because people that would say yes because people that would say yes because culturally culturally culturally >> they feel that that's just being it's >> they feel that that's just being it's >> they feel that that's just being it's sometimes it's like our American sometimes it's like our American sometimes it's like our American friends, right? Like you just you just friends, right? Like you just you just friends, right? Like you just you just are a Christian by the sense of are a Christian by the sense of are a Christian by the sense of historical legacy of being exactly historical legacy of being exactly historical legacy of being exactly Catholic, you know, and then you meet Catholic, you know, and then you meet Catholic, you know, and then you meet people and they're like, "Yeah, do you people and they're like, "Yeah, do you people and they're like, "Yeah, do you go to church?" Not really. Do you think go to church?" Not really. Do you think go to church?" Not really. Do you think about like how the Bible should shape about like how the Bible should shape about like how the Bible should shape your life? Well, not really. Do you, you your life? Well, not really. Do you, you your life? Well, not really. Do you, you know, think about being formed in the know, think about being formed in the know, think about being formed in the ways of Jesus? Well, not really. But ways of Jesus? Well, not really. But ways of Jesus? Well, not really. But >> like you just called yourself a >> like you just called yourself a >> like you just called yourself a Christian like a minute ago, right? So Christian like a minute ago, right? So Christian like a minute ago, right? So it's like how they use the term it's like how they use the term it's like how they use the term Christian and how they orient themselves Christian and how they orient themselves Christian and how they orient themselves in this story of religion. They're not in this story of religion. They're not in this story of religion. They're not atheists atheists atheists >> and they're not like another religion. >> and they're not like another religion. >> and they're not like another religion. So Christian kind of fits that. And so So Christian kind of fits that. And so So Christian kind of fits that. And so again like one of the things to go back again like one of the things to go back again like one of the things to go back to the earlier question that I think to the earlier question that I think to the earlier question that I think secular means secular means secular means >> that secular changes what Christianity >> that secular changes what Christianity >> that secular changes what Christianity really how we define Christianity. And really how we define Christianity. And really how we define Christianity. And this is the shocking thing for people this is the shocking thing for people this is the shocking thing for people that the secularism that I think is that the secularism that I think is that the secularism that I think is emerging in our culture is not emerging in our culture is not emerging in our culture is not anti-Christian.

anti-Christian. anti-Christian. >> Yeah. It's not even anti- expressions of >> Yeah. It's not even anti- expressions of >> Yeah. It's not even anti- expressions of spirituality, but what it is is a a spirituality, but what it is is a a spirituality, but what it is is a a morphing of stories of faith and morphing of stories of faith and morphing of stories of faith and religion into something else that moves religion into something else that moves religion into something else that moves us further and further away from what us further and further away from what us further and further away from what the Bible says Christianity is. the Bible says Christianity is. the Bible says Christianity is. >> And this is why I think I wrote I needed >> And this is why I think I wrote I needed >> And this is why I think I wrote I needed to write a book on the Bible for a to write a book on the Bible for a to write a book on the Bible for a secular age. secular age. secular age. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and when we first went back uh >> You know, and when we first went back uh >> You know, and when we first went back uh to Montreal to plant a church, I was to Montreal to plant a church, I was to Montreal to plant a church, I was ready for like the old category of ready for like the old category of ready for like the old category of secular, which is like secular culture secular, which is like secular culture secular, which is like secular culture is people who hate Christianity. Secular is people who hate Christianity. Secular is people who hate Christianity. Secular culture is a place where people are culture is a place where people are culture is a place where people are against everything that the Bible says. against everything that the Bible says. against everything that the Bible says. And you know, I used to have this And you know, I used to have this And you know, I used to have this backstory in my mind. Maybe you've heard backstory in my mind. Maybe you've heard backstory in my mind. Maybe you've heard this, your listeners have heard this, this, your listeners have heard this, this, your listeners have heard this, that the gospel is offensive. You know, that the gospel is offensive. You know, that the gospel is offensive. You know, it needs to be offensive. There's like it needs to be offensive. There's like it needs to be offensive. There's like something about that that is stuck with something about that that is stuck with something about that that is stuck with people. And I'm like, you know, people people. And I'm like, you know, people people. And I'm like, you know, people need to understand something before need to understand something before need to understand something before they're offended. And most people don't they're offended. And most people don't they're offended. And most people don't even know what Christianity is. So, even know what Christianity is. So, even know what Christianity is. So, they're not really offended. They're they're not really offended. They're they're not really offended. They're just oblivious to what it means to be a just oblivious to what it means to be a just oblivious to what it means to be a Christian. Christian. Christian. >> Interesting. you know, because I I >> Interesting. you know, because I I >> Interesting. you know, because I I didn't plan to go here, but little didn't plan to go here, but little didn't plan to go here, but little tidbits you pick up like in in English, tidbits you pick up like in in English, tidbits you pick up like in in English, you know, in England, the United States, you know, in England, the United States, you know, in England, the United States, and English speaking Canada, um, all the and English speaking Canada, um, all the and English speaking Canada, um, all the profanity is usually sex or body profanity is usually sex or body profanity is usually sex or body related.

related. related. >> In Quebec, it's not >> In Quebec, it's not >> In Quebec, it's not >> all religious related. >> all religious related. >> all religious related. >> All religious, right? These are these >> All religious, right? These are these >> All religious, right? These are these religious terms like I don't know what religious terms like I don't know what religious terms like I don't know what the the F equivalent is. the the F equivalent is. the the F equivalent is. >> It's the word for tabernacle. >> It's the word for tabernacle. >> It's the word for tabernacle. >> Is it really? The word for tabernacle is >> Is it really? The word for tabernacle is >> Is it really? The word for tabernacle is translated in slang on the street as the translated in slang on the street as the translated in slang on the street as the f-word. Wow. f-word. Wow. f-word. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or the word for chalice, >> Or the word for chalice, >> Or the word for chalice, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> The Eucharist, you know, for it's it's >> The Eucharist, you know, for it's it's >> The Eucharist, you know, for it's it's basically spitting in the story of the basically spitting in the story of the basically spitting in the story of the Catholic legacy. So if you're going to Catholic legacy. So if you're going to Catholic legacy. So if you're going to swear, you're going to religious swear, you're going to religious swear, you're going to religious religious words and yet it's a religious words and yet it's a religious words and yet it's a non-religious people. non-religious people. non-religious people. >> Exactly. Fascinating. So you say the old >> Exactly. Fascinating. So you say the old >> Exactly. Fascinating. So you say the old secular, which is I think what we're secular, which is I think what we're secular, which is I think what we're used to. It's like I don't believe in used to. It's like I don't believe in used to. It's like I don't believe in Christianity. I'm I'm into evolution. Christianity. I'm I'm into evolution. Christianity. I'm I'm into evolution. I'm into this. I'm into materialism. I'm into this. I'm into materialism. I'm into this. I'm into materialism. Whatever it happens to be. Whatever it happens to be. Whatever it happens to be. >> That's not what you found at all. What >> That's not what you found at all. What >> That's not what you found at all. What did you find? did you find? did you find? >> No. I think what we're really starting >> No. I think what we're really starting >> No. I think what we're really starting to see is one a shift towards being to see is one a shift towards being to see is one a shift towards being against religious institutions. against religious institutions. against religious institutions. >> So institutions are still seen as >> So institutions are still seen as >> So institutions are still seen as something very negative, oppressive at something very negative, oppressive at something very negative, oppressive at times really uh controlling people. But times really uh controlling people. But times really uh controlling people. But this awakening of spiritual curiosity is this awakening of spiritual curiosity is this awakening of spiritual curiosity is something I didn't expect.

something I didn't expect. something I didn't expect. >> So there is a spiritual curiosity, >> So there is a spiritual curiosity, >> So there is a spiritual curiosity, >> huge spiritual curiosity. And it's a >> huge spiritual curiosity. And it's a >> huge spiritual curiosity. And it's a spiritual curiosity that dabbles in the spiritual curiosity that dabbles in the spiritual curiosity that dabbles in the Christian story. Christian story. Christian story. >> In a sense, it picks up themes of Jesus. >> In a sense, it picks up themes of Jesus. >> In a sense, it picks up themes of Jesus. That's why you can have somebody who That's why you can have somebody who That's why you can have somebody who attends our church on a Sunday and attends our church on a Sunday and attends our church on a Sunday and unless they're really rooted, they can unless they're really rooted, they can unless they're really rooted, they can do a pilgrimage walk to an old Catholic do a pilgrimage walk to an old Catholic do a pilgrimage walk to an old Catholic church downtown and then explore tarot church downtown and then explore tarot church downtown and then explore tarot cards or uh goddess cards, which are cards or uh goddess cards, which are cards or uh goddess cards, which are adult cards that you use for spiritual adult cards that you use for spiritual adult cards that you use for spiritual kind of connection. Okay. So, so there kind of connection. Okay. So, so there kind of connection. Okay. So, so there there's like a a kind of mishmash of there's like a a kind of mishmash of there's like a a kind of mishmash of hunger and and I think this is so hunger and and I think this is so hunger and and I think this is so important. I hope the listeners get important. I hope the listeners get important. I hope the listeners get this. This is a a great opportunity for this. This is a a great opportunity for this. This is a a great opportunity for the for Christians, the for Christians, the for Christians, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> To get past the old category of secular >> To get past the old category of secular >> To get past the old category of secular and to say, "Okay, God, this secular is and to say, "Okay, God, this secular is and to say, "Okay, God, this secular is different. So, how are we going to equip different. So, how are we going to equip different. So, how are we going to equip leaders? How are we going to think about leaders? How are we going to think about leaders? How are we going to think about teaching or preaching, which is what I teaching or preaching, which is what I teaching or preaching, which is what I do often in this kind of world?" you do often in this kind of world?" you do often in this kind of world?" you know, it's not as aggressive or know, it's not as aggressive or know, it's not as aggressive or defensive as we thought because often, defensive as we thought because often, defensive as we thought because often, you know, you think of the word you know, you think of the word you know, you think of the word apologetics, like you have to be ready apologetics, like you have to be ready apologetics, like you have to be ready to defend. to defend. to defend. >> It it actually is not that. It requires >> It it actually is not that. It requires >> It it actually is not that. It requires a kind of a different posture.

a kind of a different posture. a kind of a different posture. >> So, you know, you travel a lot in the >> So, you know, you travel a lot in the >> So, you know, you travel a lot in the US, you speak in the US a lot, and then US, you speak in the US a lot, and then US, you speak in the US a lot, and then you come back to like I do, come back to you come back to like I do, come back to you come back to like I do, come back to Canada, you go back to Montreal, I go Canada, you go back to Montreal, I go Canada, you go back to Montreal, I go back north of Toronto, where we are back north of Toronto, where we are back north of Toronto, where we are right now. But I'm I'm curious like right now. But I'm I'm curious like right now. But I'm I'm curious like because Bara has has documented for because Bara has has documented for because Bara has has documented for about five or six years now this rise of about five or six years now this rise of about five or six years now this rise of the spiritually curious, the spiritually curious, the spiritually curious, >> right? Where there's this openness that >> right? Where there's this openness that >> right? Where there's this openness that they talk about um fundamentally the they talk about um fundamentally the they talk about um fundamentally the same or fundamentally different? What same or fundamentally different? What same or fundamentally different? What are you seeing in Quebec? Is is that is are you seeing in Quebec? Is is that is are you seeing in Quebec? Is is that is that that that >> it's bang on? >> it's bang on? >> it's bang on? >> Bang on. >> Bang on. >> Bang on. >> Bang on. So, we've kind of gone through >> Bang on. So, we've kind of gone through >> Bang on. So, we've kind of gone through the anti- relligious, I hate you stage, the anti- relligious, I hate you stage, the anti- relligious, I hate you stage, and now we're in the second or third and now we're in the second or third and now we're in the second or third generation of people who grew up without generation of people who grew up without generation of people who grew up without church, and they're open. They're church, and they're open. They're church, and they're open. They're curious. curious. curious. >> And in Quebec in particular, the old >> And in Quebec in particular, the old >> And in Quebec in particular, the old stories that, you know, were were shaped stories that, you know, were were shaped stories that, you know, were were shaped out of an anti-atholic story, right? The out of an anti-atholic story, right? The out of an anti-atholic story, right? The next younger generations don't have next younger generations don't have next younger generations don't have that, that, that, >> right? They they I mean, they might know >> right? They they I mean, they might know >> right? They they I mean, they might know it if their grandparents tell them a it if their grandparents tell them a it if their grandparents tell them a story of long time ago, but they don't story of long time ago, but they don't story of long time ago, but they don't really have that. Actually, some of the really have that. Actually, some of the really have that. Actually, some of the most popular French shows in Quebec are most popular French shows in Quebec are most popular French shows in Quebec are filmed in churches and they use actually filmed in churches and they use actually filmed in churches and they use actually religious themes in how they shape the religious themes in how they shape the religious themes in how they shape the show. So, I'll give you an example. One show. So, I'll give you an example. One show. So, I'll give you an example. One of the popular shows in Quebec is like of the popular shows in Quebec is like of the popular shows in Quebec is like an interview show like a panel. Think of an interview show like a panel. Think of an interview show like a panel. Think of the view, right? Right. But the host the view, right? Right. But the host the view, right? Right. But the host interviews four guests every week. And interviews four guests every week. And interviews four guests every week. And the way the guests introduce themselves the way the guests introduce themselves the way the guests introduce themselves is twofold. One is you meet them in a is twofold. One is you meet them in a is twofold. One is you meet them in a confessional box. like sharing who they confessional box. like sharing who they confessional box. like sharing who they are, which is what a confessional box is are, which is what a confessional box is are, which is what a confessional box is about, like being authentic about who about, like being authentic about who about, like being authentic about who you are. So that's the first time you you are. So that's the first time you you are. So that's the first time you meet them. It's a confessional box.

meet them. It's a confessional box. meet them. It's a confessional box. They're saying, "Hey, my name is Dom. They're saying, "Hey, my name is Dom. They're saying, "Hey, my name is Dom. I'm so and so." If I was on the show, I'm so and so." If I was on the show, I'm so and so." If I was on the show, and then when they come out, a choir and then when they come out, a choir and then when they come out, a choir plays them into their seat, like a plays them into their seat, like a plays them into their seat, like a religious choir. So, it's fascinating religious choir. So, it's fascinating religious choir. So, it's fascinating that it's almost like we're haunted by a that it's almost like we're haunted by a that it's almost like we're haunted by a religious story. We want our lives to be religious story. We want our lives to be religious story. We want our lives to be anchored in a story that's bigger than anchored in a story that's bigger than anchored in a story that's bigger than ourselves. And we don't want to be ourselves. And we don't want to be ourselves. And we don't want to be Christian if Christian means religious Christian if Christian means religious Christian if Christian means religious and oppressive and weird. So, we don't and oppressive and weird. So, we don't and oppressive and weird. So, we don't know what to do. know what to do. know what to do. >> So, what are the obstacles you're >> So, what are the obstacles you're >> So, what are the obstacles you're facing? And let let me back it up a facing? And let let me back it up a facing? And let let me back it up a little bit because you also mega little bit because you also mega little bit because you also mega churches in Canada are very rare. You churches in Canada are very rare. You churches in Canada are very rare. You preached at one for years. preached at one for years. preached at one for years. >> I used to be teaching pastor at a fairly >> I used to be teaching pastor at a fairly >> I used to be teaching pastor at a fairly large church. large church. large church. >> Yeah. Fairly large church. Thousands of >> Yeah. Fairly large church. Thousands of >> Yeah. Fairly large church. Thousands of people on a Sunday morning. Then you people on a Sunday morning. Then you people on a Sunday morning. Then you went, you became lead pastor at a church went, you became lead pastor at a church went, you became lead pastor at a church and it grew meaningfully into a and it grew meaningfully into a and it grew meaningfully into a large/mega church. large/mega church. large/mega church. >> And then you go to Quebec and start over >> And then you go to Quebec and start over >> And then you go to Quebec and start over again with no people. And again with no people. And again with no people. And >> do we have to talk about this? >> do we have to talk about this? >> do we have to talk about this? >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm poking a wound here >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm poking a wound here >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm poking a wound here right now. right now. right now. >> PTSD. Yeah. Yeah. >> PTSD. Yeah. Yeah. >> PTSD. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But I mean, when you think about >> Yeah. But I mean, when you think about >> Yeah. But I mean, when you think about that, like drawing a crowd where people that, like drawing a crowd where people that, like drawing a crowd where people have Christian memory, have Christian memory, have Christian memory, >> is that what was happening in those >> is that what was happening in those >> is that what was happening in those churches, you were sort of, and I I churches, you were sort of, and I I churches, you were sort of, and I I don't want to disparage the ministry, don't want to disparage the ministry, don't want to disparage the ministry, but you know, here's here's the secret.

but you know, here's here's the secret. but you know, here's here's the secret. Again, more Bara data that depending on Again, more Bara data that depending on Again, more Bara data that depending on who, you know, what survey you're who, you know, what survey you're who, you know, what survey you're looking at, 75 to 90% of all church looking at, 75 to 90% of all church looking at, 75 to 90% of all church growth is transfer growth. growth is transfer growth. growth is transfer growth. >> There's a little bit of that. >> There's a little bit of that. >> There's a little bit of that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a little bit of So, what >> Yeah. There's a little bit of So, what >> Yeah. There's a little bit of So, what were some of the differences you noticed were some of the differences you noticed were some of the differences you noticed in um you know preaching to large large in um you know preaching to large large in um you know preaching to large large large churches in Ontario which is not large churches in Ontario which is not large churches in Ontario which is not that far from Michigan? that far from Michigan? that far from Michigan? >> No. I mean you're you know right across >> No. I mean you're you know right across >> No. I mean you're you know right across the river. the river. the river. >> I think I would say I if you're in a >> I think I would say I if you're in a >> I think I would say I if you're in a larger church that has a strong larger church that has a strong larger church that has a strong Christian rootedness, Christian story, Christian rootedness, Christian story, Christian rootedness, Christian story, you're really moving people from kind of you're really moving people from kind of you're really moving people from kind of like a nominal understanding of like a nominal understanding of like a nominal understanding of Christianity. I mean they come because Christianity. I mean they come because Christianity. I mean they come because their grandparents come, they come their grandparents come, they come their grandparents come, they come because it's good for the kids, because it's good for the kids, because it's good for the kids, whatever. But you got to move them to a whatever. But you got to move them to a whatever. But you got to move them to a deep understanding of disciplehip you deep understanding of disciplehip you deep understanding of disciplehip you know and that's a certain trajectory in know and that's a certain trajectory in know and that's a certain trajectory in preaching uh you know that this is not preaching uh you know that this is not preaching uh you know that this is not like a concert this is not like an event like a concert this is not like an event like a concert this is not like an event this is like a sacred space where Jesus this is like a sacred space where Jesus this is like a sacred space where Jesus does deep work you know and we want you does deep work you know and we want you does deep work you know and we want you to get that right now when you go to a to get that right now when you go to a to get that right now when you go to a place where you know we started with place where you know we started with place where you know we started with about 18 people when the church started about 18 people when the church started about 18 people when the church started in Montreal like I often tell people we in Montreal like I often tell people we in Montreal like I often tell people we left a church of you know 800 to die left a church of you know 800 to die left a church of you know 800 to die with eight you know just uh you know I with eight you know just uh you know I with eight you know just uh you know I wasn't sure how that was going to work wasn't sure how that was going to work wasn't sure how that was going to work uh but there is something that is uh but there is something that is uh but there is something that is consistent consistent consistent You're still listening to the ways You're still listening to the ways You're still listening to the ways people both understand and misunderstand people both understand and misunderstand people both understand and misunderstand the story of Jesus.

the story of Jesus. the story of Jesus. >> And you're and you're teaching in a way >> And you're and you're teaching in a way >> And you're and you're teaching in a way to help correct, encourage, stretch them to help correct, encourage, stretch them to help correct, encourage, stretch them in that way. Now, when you're in a in that way. Now, when you're in a in that way. Now, when you're in a bigger church, you're not listening to bigger church, you're not listening to bigger church, you're not listening to everybody because it's too big. When you everybody because it's too big. When you everybody because it's too big. When you plant a church, you kind of have, you plant a church, you kind of have, you plant a church, you kind of have, you know, everybody who's there. know, everybody who's there. know, everybody who's there. >> You know, the woundedness, you know, the >> You know, the woundedness, you know, the >> You know, the woundedness, you know, the the scars, you know that they're not the scars, you know that they're not the scars, you know that they're not sure whether they want to be part of sure whether they want to be part of sure whether they want to be part of church. Uh you know that they're they're church. Uh you know that they're they're church. Uh you know that they're they're exploring because they're a young couple exploring because they're a young couple exploring because they're a young couple that's having a family and they want to that's having a family and they want to that's having a family and they want to think about how their kids can be part think about how their kids can be part think about how their kids can be part of church, right? So, you're you're of church, right? So, you're you're of church, right? So, you're you're holding all of those things together and holding all of those things together and holding all of those things together and and my pattern is I don't know how it is and my pattern is I don't know how it is and my pattern is I don't know how it is for you, Carrie, but when I sit down to for you, Carrie, but when I sit down to for you, Carrie, but when I sit down to prepare a sermon, you know, you look at prepare a sermon, you know, you look at prepare a sermon, you know, you look at a blank sheet and you just have these a blank sheet and you just have these a blank sheet and you just have these people in mind and you pray people in mind and you pray people in mind and you pray >> and you're like, "Jesus, these people >> and you're like, "Jesus, these people >> and you're like, "Jesus, these people don't need to hear from me. They need to don't need to hear from me. They need to don't need to hear from me. They need to hear from you." hear from you." hear from you." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I have to find a way to help them >> And I have to find a way to help them >> And I have to find a way to help them know that you're aware of their know that you're aware of their know that you're aware of their situation situation situation and that you haven't forgotten them. So, and that you haven't forgotten them. So, and that you haven't forgotten them. So, so I think preaching kind of all should so I think preaching kind of all should so I think preaching kind of all should begin in that way. You just have to begin in that way. You just have to begin in that way. You just have to modify that as depending on the people modify that as depending on the people modify that as depending on the people you shepherd or the people you lead. You you shepherd or the people you lead. You you shepherd or the people you lead. You know, I think it's Maxwell who talks know, I think it's Maxwell who talks know, I think it's Maxwell who talks about like you can't lead people you about like you can't lead people you about like you can't lead people you don't love. Yeah. You know, which is don't love. Yeah. You know, which is don't love. Yeah. You know, which is true. But you can yell at a lot of true. But you can yell at a lot of true. But you can yell at a lot of people even if you don't love them and people even if you don't love them and people even if you don't love them and you can tell do a TED talk for anybody, you can tell do a TED talk for anybody, you can tell do a TED talk for anybody, right? But preaching and teaching has a right? But preaching and teaching has a right? But preaching and teaching has a bit of a different tone because of that.

bit of a different tone because of that. bit of a different tone because of that. >> Yeah. I want to I want to talk to you >> Yeah. I want to I want to talk to you >> Yeah. I want to I want to talk to you about that because I mean we're in a about that because I mean we're in a about that because I mean we're in a season right now where a lot of churches season right now where a lot of churches season right now where a lot of churches are growing. are growing. are growing. >> In Quebec, not so much. There's a few >> In Quebec, not so much. There's a few >> In Quebec, not so much. There's a few >> pockets. Your church has grown a lot. >> pockets. Your church has grown a lot. >> pockets. Your church has grown a lot. you're well beyond those 18 people, you're well beyond those 18 people, you're well beyond those 18 people, >> but you're not seeing the kind of >> but you're not seeing the kind of >> but you're not seeing the kind of numbers that you were used to. numbers that you were used to. numbers that you were used to. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> previously. And so now we have these >> previously. And so now we have these >> previously. And so now we have these talks of revival. You know, I was here talks of revival. You know, I was here talks of revival. You know, I was here yesterday at Kexus and literally I'm yesterday at Kexus and literally I'm yesterday at Kexus and literally I'm back up on the front row because we were back up on the front row because we were back up on the front row because we were out of seats, like just out of seats, out of seats, like just out of seats, out of seats, like just out of seats, which is incredible. which is incredible. which is incredible. >> So, you're there. What is >> So, you're there. What is >> So, you're there. What is resonating elsewhere that is not yet resonating elsewhere that is not yet resonating elsewhere that is not yet resonating resonating resonating >> in your particular culture? And the >> in your particular culture? And the >> in your particular culture? And the reason I'm asking the question, I'm very reason I'm asking the question, I'm very reason I'm asking the question, I'm very interested from, you know, purely interested from, you know, purely interested from, you know, purely finding out more about your story, finding out more about your story, finding out more about your story, >> but there are people listening, pastors >> but there are people listening, pastors >> but there are people listening, pastors listening, who would say, "Yeah, I'm in listening, who would say, "Yeah, I'm in listening, who would say, "Yeah, I'm in a pretty, they're spiritually open, but a pretty, they're spiritually open, but a pretty, they're spiritually open, but they're not connecting with they're not connecting with they're not connecting with Christianity. We're not seeing a lot of Christianity. We're not seeing a lot of Christianity. We're not seeing a lot of churches really connect or find momentum churches really connect or find momentum churches really connect or find momentum here." That's why I want to be very here." That's why I want to be very here." That's why I want to be very balanced in, you know, we can tell all balanced in, you know, we can tell all balanced in, you know, we can tell all the success stories, but we also need to the success stories, but we also need to the success stories, but we also need to tell some real world stories where it's tell some real world stories where it's tell some real world stories where it's just hard, man. It's hard. And you're just hard, man. It's hard. And you're just hard, man. It's hard. And you're not alone in that. There's a lot of not alone in that. There's a lot of not alone in that. There's a lot of people Pacific Northwest, the Northeast.

people Pacific Northwest, the Northeast. people Pacific Northwest, the Northeast. We're seeing God move, but you know, and We're seeing God move, but you know, and We're seeing God move, but you know, and it could be could be, you know, middle it could be could be, you know, middle it could be could be, you know, middle America, wherever it is. But the ground America, wherever it is. But the ground America, wherever it is. But the ground just seems particularly harder. So, do just seems particularly harder. So, do just seems particularly harder. So, do you want to talk about why you don't you want to talk about why you don't you want to talk about why you don't think you're you're yet seeing that kind think you're you're yet seeing that kind think you're you're yet seeing that kind of renaissance in Montreal, revival in of renaissance in Montreal, revival in of renaissance in Montreal, revival in Montreal? Montreal? Montreal? >> No, that's good. And it's a great >> No, that's good. And it's a great >> No, that's good. And it's a great reminder just to encourage people, you reminder just to encourage people, you reminder just to encourage people, you know, cuz sometimes you can tell just know, cuz sometimes you can tell just know, cuz sometimes you can tell just these raw raw stories and be like, well, these raw raw stories and be like, well, these raw raw stories and be like, well, I guess I guess I guess >> everybody's growing. I guess that's yeah >> everybody's growing. I guess that's yeah >> everybody's growing. I guess that's yeah I guess I suck you know and maybe you I guess I suck you know and maybe you I guess I suck you know and maybe you know you need to get better as a leader know you need to get better as a leader know you need to get better as a leader that's possible right you know we're not that's possible right you know we're not that's possible right you know we're not we're not minimizing we're not minimizing we're not minimizing >> but you're pretty good and you've got >> but you're pretty good and you've got >> but you're pretty good and you've got that track record and I mean your new that track record and I mean your new that track record and I mean your new book I mean you're an intellectual as book I mean you're an intellectual as book I mean you're an intellectual as well which I really respect well which I really respect well which I really respect >> No means a lot Carrie >> No means a lot Carrie >> No means a lot Carrie >> you think at a deep level I I think one >> you think at a deep level I I think one >> you think at a deep level I I think one of the things that I'm noticing that is of the things that I'm noticing that is of the things that I'm noticing that is very particular to our context is that very particular to our context is that very particular to our context is that the minute something gets big or bigger the minute something gets big or bigger the minute something gets big or bigger there's this invisible trigger that there's this invisible trigger that there's this invisible trigger that happens that it feels it it becomes happens that it feels it it becomes happens that it feels it it becomes institutional and controlled rolling, institutional and controlled rolling, institutional and controlled rolling, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And people will use this phrase, okay? >> And people will use this phrase, okay? >> And people will use this phrase, okay? And it's it's weird. People have a And it's it's weird. People have a And it's it's weird. People have a little bit of religious memory will be little bit of religious memory will be little bit of religious memory will be like, like, like, >> "Is this like a megaurch?"

>> "Is this like a megaurch?" >> "Is this like a megaurch?" >> Like, >> Like, >> Like, >> and that's not a compliment. >> and that's not a compliment. >> and that's not a compliment. >> That's not a compliment. That's very >> That's not a compliment. That's very >> That's not a compliment. That's very negative. That's very negative. And and negative. That's very negative. And and negative. That's very negative. And and some people, like people that I know in some people, like people that I know in some people, like people that I know in my family who are not believers, my family who are not believers, my family who are not believers, actually aggressively against actually aggressively against actually aggressively against Christianity, will be like, "Why does Christianity, will be like, "Why does Christianity, will be like, "Why does like church feel like Walmart?" like church feel like Walmart?" like church feel like Walmart?" >> Like it's a jab at like that, right? So >> Like it's a jab at like that, right? So >> Like it's a jab at like that, right? So I think there is something that whether I think there is something that whether I think there is something that whether we like it or not, when something gets we like it or not, when something gets we like it or not, when something gets bigger, people are uncomfortable unless bigger, people are uncomfortable unless bigger, people are uncomfortable unless there's high trust in the culture. there's high trust in the culture. there's high trust in the culture. >> Canadians do not like big things. If >> Canadians do not like big things. If >> Canadians do not like big things. If it's too big, it feels like there's more it's too big, it feels like there's more it's too big, it feels like there's more room. There's more room to be deceptive. room. There's more room to be deceptive. room. There's more room to be deceptive. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. That that idea. >> Right. That that idea. >> Right. That that idea. >> There's that anti-institutional trust. >> There's that anti-institutional trust. >> There's that anti-institutional trust. >> It's still there. >> It's still there. >> It's still there. >> And even in America, you know, as much >> And even in America, you know, as much >> And even in America, you know, as much as you see things changing in real time, as you see things changing in real time, as you see things changing in real time, >> um trust in institutions is at an >> um trust in institutions is at an >> um trust in institutions is at an all-time low. all-time low. all-time low. >> Yeah. Young people. And that's why the >> Yeah. Young people. And that's why the >> Yeah. Young people. And that's why the internet is so powerful with young internet is so powerful with young internet is so powerful with young people. They can connect but they don't people. They can connect but they don't people. They can connect but they don't have to like commit to you know buying have to like commit to you know buying have to like commit to you know buying into the machine or something like that into the machine or something like that into the machine or something like that whatever they use. Right now I think whatever they use. Right now I think whatever they use. Right now I think that that changes at times when there's that that changes at times when there's that that changes at times when there's high trust but you know this Carrie like high trust but you know this Carrie like high trust but you know this Carrie like often times a church plant when it gets often times a church plant when it gets often times a church plant when it gets to about where our church is the founder to about where our church is the founder to about where our church is the founder leaves.

leaves. leaves. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. There's a transition right >> Right. There's a transition right >> Right. There's a transition right because the the founder has to change because the the founder has to change because the the founder has to change how they lead based on where the church how they lead based on where the church how they lead based on where the church is at now. That's very different from is at now. That's very different from is at now. That's very different from people who met you when the church people who met you when the church people who met you when the church started. What are you noticing? Like started. What are you noticing? Like started. What are you noticing? Like what what growth barrier are you up what what growth barrier are you up what what growth barrier are you up against right now or what's changing? against right now or what's changing? against right now or what's changing? >> They're losing hight touch moments with >> They're losing hight touch moments with >> They're losing hight touch moments with you which is where trust is found you which is where trust is found you which is where trust is found >> because you now have hundreds who call >> because you now have hundreds who call >> because you now have hundreds who call >> over 400 like they're not going. So you >> over 400 like they're not going. So you >> over 400 like they're not going. So you have to keep telling the people who were have to keep telling the people who were have to keep telling the people who were there when we were 20. You're not going there when we were 20. You're not going there when we were 20. You're not going to see me as often. Like I can't have to see me as often. Like I can't have to see me as often. Like I can't have coffee with you for like 2 months. coffee with you for like 2 months. coffee with you for like 2 months. >> I think 400 is the most awkward size. >> I think 400 is the most awkward size. >> I think 400 is the most awkward size. It's about there for us. Talk to Jeff It's about there for us. Talk to Jeff It's about there for us. Talk to Jeff Brody here at Kexus where we're filming Brody here at Kexus where we're filming Brody here at Kexus where we're filming this because our rooms are small. Like this because our rooms are small. Like this because our rooms are small. Like we'll have I don't know 1,700 now on the we'll have I don't know 1,700 now on the we'll have I don't know 1,700 now on the weekend 1,800 weekend 1,800 weekend 1,800 >> but we max seat 350 people. So you're >> but we max seat 350 people. So you're >> but we max seat 350 people. So you're squeezed in like a shoe horn and people squeezed in like a shoe horn and people squeezed in like a shoe horn and people go well I should have access to you cuz go well I should have access to you cuz go well I should have access to you cuz there only 300 some odd other people. there only 300 some odd other people. there only 300 some odd other people. >> That's a great point. Yeah. Cuz they >> That's a great point. Yeah. Cuz they >> That's a great point. Yeah. Cuz they don't know like that there's other don't know like that there's other don't know like that there's other gatherings or they're not part of those gatherings or they're not part of those gatherings or they're not part of those gatherings. gatherings. gatherings. >> And they don't know that that's probably >> And they don't know that that's probably >> And they don't know that that's probably half of your people who showed up on a half of your people who showed up on a half of your people who showed up on a Sunday, right? So you might have 7 800 Sunday, right? So you might have 7 800 Sunday, right? So you might have 7 800 people people people >> who now call your church home, >> who now call your church home, >> who now call your church home, >> but they're looking around going I think >> but they're looking around going I think >> but they're looking around going I think you're still my friend.

you're still my friend. you're still my friend. friends. Can I have your cell number? friends. Can I have your cell number? friends. Can I have your cell number? And I'm like, I would love to give you And I'm like, I would love to give you And I'm like, I would love to give you my cell number, but if I do, I'm going my cell number, but if I do, I'm going my cell number, but if I do, I'm going to burn myself. to burn myself. to burn myself. >> Yeah. It's a real I I I think of it as >> Yeah. It's a real I I I think of it as >> Yeah. It's a real I I I think of it as the awkward teenage face. the awkward teenage face. the awkward teenage face. >> It's like, if you're not an adult, >> It's like, if you're not an adult, >> It's like, if you're not an adult, you're not a child yet. And yet there's you're not a child yet. And yet there's you're not a child yet. And yet there's people who come to our church, even when people who come to our church, even when people who come to our church, even when our church was 200, and they're like, our church was 200, and they're like, our church was 200, and they're like, "This is the biggest church I've ever "This is the biggest church I've ever "This is the biggest church I've ever been to in my life." been to in my life." been to in my life." >> Well, and the other thing I was going to >> Well, and the other thing I was going to >> Well, and the other thing I was going to say is 400 is a mega church in Quebec. say is 400 is a mega church in Quebec. say is 400 is a mega church in Quebec. >> It's it feels for people who are there, >> It's it feels for people who are there, >> It's it feels for people who are there, it definitely feels that how you lead it definitely feels that how you lead it definitely feels that how you lead that, how you structure that is so that, how you structure that is so that, how you structure that is so different than how you start the church. different than how you start the church. different than how you start the church. >> Yeah. So you also are praying through >> Yeah. So you also are praying through >> Yeah. So you also are praying through God, do I have the gifts to take the God, do I have the gifts to take the God, do I have the gifts to take the church now to the next place? I mean, church now to the next place? I mean, church now to the next place? I mean, one of the blessings I think of my one of the blessings I think of my one of the blessings I think of my journey has been that I've worked in journey has been that I've worked in journey has been that I've worked in large churches before I planted a large churches before I planted a large churches before I planted a church. church. church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Most church planters don't do that. Like >> Most church planters don't do that. Like >> Most church planters don't do that. Like they're young, they're excited, they they're young, they're excited, they they're young, they're excited, they plant a church, they haven't been lead plant a church, they haven't been lead plant a church, they haven't been lead pastors, they haven't raised money, they pastors, they haven't raised money, they pastors, they haven't raised money, they so it feels harder where I kind of did a so it feels harder where I kind of did a so it feels harder where I kind of did a bit of a reverse thing. I experienced bit of a reverse thing. I experienced bit of a reverse thing. I experienced all these other things in a big setting all these other things in a big setting all these other things in a big setting and then I went back and I planted a and then I went back and I planted a and then I went back and I planted a church. This episode is brought to you church. This episode is brought to you church. This episode is brought to you by Ble. So, my friends at Blay have a by Ble. 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kind of get it. kind of get it. >> Yeah, they get it. And I think too, one >> Yeah, they get it. And I think too, one >> Yeah, they get it. And I think too, one of the things that maybe our American of the things that maybe our American of the things that maybe our American friends might not realize is that there friends might not realize is that there friends might not realize is that there is something in an American culture that is something in an American culture that is something in an American culture that I think is beautiful is that there's an I think is beautiful is that there's an I think is beautiful is that there's an honor in like trusted leaders, honor in like trusted leaders, honor in like trusted leaders, >> like and I think it's it's embedded in >> like and I think it's it's embedded in >> like and I think it's it's embedded in in the DNA of like a high sports culture in the DNA of like a high sports culture in the DNA of like a high sports culture like when you're in a you're you're a like when you're in a you're you're a like when you're in a you're you're a football coach and and you know you'll football coach and and you know you'll football coach and and you know you'll hear people even when they're adults, hear people even when they're adults, hear people even when they're adults, they're called they will call coach they're called they will call coach they're called they will call coach coach, you know, they still reference coach, you know, they still reference coach, you know, they still reference that leadership position or the military that leadership position or the military that leadership position or the military or you know, schools. There is something or you know, schools. There is something or you know, schools. There is something about leadership being embraced quicker about leadership being embraced quicker about leadership being embraced quicker and more as we need good leaders to go and more as we need good leaders to go and more as we need good leaders to go to the next phase where I don't think we to the next phase where I don't think we to the next phase where I don't think we have that as naturally in Quebec or even have that as naturally in Quebec or even have that as naturally in Quebec or even in Canada. in Canada. in Canada. >> No, there's also there's always a >> No, there's also there's always a >> No, there's also there's always a suspicion. suspicion. suspicion. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> always a suspicion that's there. >> always a suspicion that's there. >> always a suspicion that's there. >> Um, so yeah, you're right. The big >> Um, so yeah, you're right. The big >> Um, so yeah, you're right. The big difference is, you know, you started difference is, you know, you started difference is, you know, you started with hundreds and moved to thousands or with hundreds and moved to thousands or with hundreds and moved to thousands or you started with thousands. Now you got you started with thousands. Now you got you started with thousands. Now you got 18 people and now you've got hundreds. 18 people and now you've got hundreds. 18 people and now you've got hundreds. How has that journey been for you How has that journey been for you How has that journey been for you personally? Like because you must feel I personally? Like because you must feel I personally? Like because you must feel I eventually got to the point where you eventually got to the point where you eventually got to the point where you know we started with a handful of people know we started with a handful of people know we started with a handful of people and ended up with a lot by the time I and ended up with a lot by the time I and ended up with a lot by the time I left but if like you were part of those left but if like you were part of those left but if like you were part of those original churches I always had time for original churches I always had time for original churches I always had time for you.

you. you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I try to tell people or >> Yeah. Yeah. I I try to tell people or >> Yeah. Yeah. I I try to tell people or remind them you know some of those early remind them you know some of those early remind them you know some of those early people were in the trenches with us. I people were in the trenches with us. I people were in the trenches with us. I mean they have access to me like they mean they have access to me like they mean they have access to me like they they can connect. They do have your cell they can connect. They do have your cell they can connect. They do have your cell number. number. number. >> Yeah they do. But I think because they >> Yeah they do. But I think because they >> Yeah they do. But I think because they know the burden I carry for the church know the burden I carry for the church know the burden I carry for the church and for people who are not Christians and for people who are not Christians and for people who are not Christians yet, they actually are not that yet, they actually are not that yet, they actually are not that demanding. demanding. demanding. >> You know, they that's funny. >> You know, they that's funny. >> You know, they that's funny. >> You know, they they they no because they >> You know, they they they no because they >> You know, they they they no because they they were there from the be. They the they were there from the be. They the they were there from the be. They the values are so embedded in them of what values are so embedded in them of what values are so embedded in them of what we're doing. It's more people who we're doing. It's more people who we're doing. It's more people who weren't there early on but came a little weren't there early on but came a little weren't there early on but came a little bit after and have a certain idea of bit after and have a certain idea of bit after and have a certain idea of what they want the pastor to be. And I what they want the pastor to be. And I what they want the pastor to be. And I and I think the the point you mentioned and I think the the point you mentioned and I think the the point you mentioned earlier is important to to say you know earlier is important to to say you know earlier is important to to say you know there is a transfer growth that happens there is a transfer growth that happens there is a transfer growth that happens when you start something people want to when you start something people want to when you start something people want to see it something new is happening but see it something new is happening but see it something new is happening but nobody tells you how problematic nobody tells you how problematic nobody tells you how problematic transfer growth is. transfer growth is. transfer growth is. >> Oh why is it problematic? >> Oh why is it problematic? >> Oh why is it problematic? >> People hear it as like oh just more >> People hear it as like oh just more >> People hear it as like oh just more people are showing up this must be great people are showing up this must be great people are showing up this must be great you took people from another church. you took people from another church. you took people from another church. What they don't tell you is all those What they don't tell you is all those What they don't tell you is all those people who come from another church have people who come from another church have people who come from another church have expectations they're not willing to expectations they're not willing to expectations they're not willing to change and they're going to impose those change and they're going to impose those change and they're going to impose those on your church. There's a reason they on your church. There's a reason they on your church. There's a reason they left that last church left that last church left that last church >> and now they're going to bring those. So >> and now they're going to bring those. So >> and now they're going to bring those. So they are bringing you know the they are bringing you know the they are bringing you know the excitement of maybe they're moving they excitement of maybe they're moving they excitement of maybe they're moving they they live closer to where your church they live closer to where your church they live closer to where your church is. So the transfer is exciting in is. So the transfer is exciting in is. So the transfer is exciting in numerically like you're seeing people numerically like you're seeing people numerically like you're seeing people show up show up show up >> but in the DNA of the church it's >> but in the DNA of the church it's >> but in the DNA of the church it's actually very hard to help people uh you actually very hard to help people uh you actually very hard to help people uh you know come from another church and be know come from another church and be know come from another church and be willing to die to their vision of what a willing to die to their vision of what a willing to die to their vision of what a pastor in a church should be and listen pastor in a church should be and listen pastor in a church should be and listen with you to the kind of church God's with you to the kind of church God's with you to the kind of church God's calling you to plant. And nobody trains

calling you to plant. And nobody trains calling you to plant. And nobody trains you almost for that. you almost for that. you almost for that. >> How do you cast vision for them? How do >> How do you cast vision for them? How do >> How do you cast vision for them? How do you do that? you do that? you do that? >> You do it, you know, one, you decide who >> You do it, you know, one, you decide who >> You do it, you know, one, you decide who you're going to cast vision for. Some you're going to cast vision for. Some you're going to cast vision for. Some people you want them to leave. people you want them to leave. people you want them to leave. >> That's that's an important thing. You >> That's that's an important thing. You >> That's that's an important thing. You have to kind of have to kind of have to kind of >> Can I tell you a secret? >> Can I tell you a secret? >> Can I tell you a secret? >> Yeah. When I was lead pastor here at >> Yeah. When I was lead pastor here at >> Yeah. When I was lead pastor here at Kexus, Kexus, Kexus, >> if people came in and they asked me, >> if people came in and they asked me, >> if people came in and they asked me, "What is my theological position on X?" "What is my theological position on X?" "What is my theological position on X?" I would tell them, "This isn't a good I would tell them, "This isn't a good I would tell them, "This isn't a good church for you." church for you." church for you." >> There's some of that. You feel it right >> There's some of that. You feel it right >> There's some of that. You feel it right away, right? away, right? away, right? >> And you're more of a theologian than I >> And you're more of a theologian than I >> And you're more of a theologian than I am. But I'm like, am. But I'm like, am. But I'm like, >> still, why is that your first question? >> still, why is that your first question? >> still, why is that your first question? >> Yeah. And I'll get that your first >> Yeah. And I'll get that your first >> Yeah. And I'll get that your first question. Why the Bible? Like why don't question. Why the Bible? Like why don't question. Why the Bible? Like why don't you use this translation of the Bible? you use this translation of the Bible? you use this translation of the Bible? It's the And you're like, how about It's the And you're like, how about It's the And you're like, how about that? You know, but now we live in a that? You know, but now we live in a that? You know, but now we live in a culture of reviews, right? So if I don't culture of reviews, right? So if I don't culture of reviews, right? So if I don't honor, I think that journey you're honor, I think that journey you're honor, I think that journey you're getting one star, you're getting people getting one star, you're getting people getting one star, you're getting people this church didn't talk to me. So I this church didn't talk to me. So I this church didn't talk to me. So I think you're, you know, for young think you're, you know, for young think you're, you know, for young leaders, don't get discouraged. Don't leaders, don't get discouraged. Don't leaders, don't get discouraged. Don't get discouraged. Like all of us have had get discouraged. Like all of us have had get discouraged. Like all of us have had to do that. And there's no secret around to do that. And there's no secret around to do that. And there's no secret around this. You just have to lead, manage, this. You just have to lead, manage, this. You just have to lead, manage, encourage, pray, and just even when it's encourage, pray, and just even when it's encourage, pray, and just even when it's challenging, just keep walking. Stay. challenging, just keep walking. Stay. challenging, just keep walking. Stay. >> What are some signs that someone's going >> What are some signs that someone's going >> What are some signs that someone's going to stick? Like that this is the right to stick? Like that this is the right to stick? Like that this is the right kind of transfer growth because I think kind of transfer growth because I think kind of transfer growth because I think you're right. There's the wrong kind of you're right. There's the wrong kind of you're right. There's the wrong kind of transfer growth.

transfer growth. transfer growth. >> There's the right kind of transfer >> There's the right kind of transfer >> There's the right kind of transfer growth. growth. growth. >> One of the one of the signs I think in >> One of the one of the signs I think in >> One of the one of the signs I think in our context where I think somebody's our context where I think somebody's our context where I think somebody's really going to make it is that they are really going to make it is that they are really going to make it is that they are willing to serve willing to serve willing to serve usually fairly quickly usually fairly quickly usually fairly quickly >> in a in a in a place that's very >> in a in a in a place that's very >> in a in a in a place that's very humbling. So the example I use is I humbling. So the example I use is I humbling. So the example I use is I remember early on we had somebody who remember early on we had somebody who remember early on we had somebody who came wonderful family they had been came wonderful family they had been came wonderful family they had been board members at another church you know board members at another church you know board members at another church you know they told me this and you know I often they told me this and you know I often they told me this and you know I often listen for people who say that with the listen for people who say that with the listen for people who say that with the idea that like I should be on this board idea that like I should be on this board idea that like I should be on this board at this church almost like implying you at this church almost like implying you at this church almost like implying you should know that I'm this kind of leader should know that I'm this kind of leader should know that I'm this kind of leader and I'll often say hey we need somebody and I'll often say hey we need somebody and I'll often say hey we need somebody to clean bathrooms on the weekend would to clean bathrooms on the weekend would to clean bathrooms on the weekend would you do that you do that you do that and if they say no I remind them that I and if they say no I remind them that I and if they say no I remind them that I clean bathrooms at our church clean bathrooms at our church clean bathrooms at our church >> and that's what I did when our church >> and that's what I did when our church >> and that's what I did when our church started. So there's no thing you can't started. So there's no thing you can't started. So there's no thing you can't do that's too low for you. And if they do that's too low for you. And if they do that's too low for you. And if they say, "I would love to do that." Like, say, "I would love to do that." Like, say, "I would love to do that." Like, "What's the scare?" I'm like, "There's a "What's the scare?" I'm like, "There's a "What's the scare?" I'm like, "There's a person that's going to be here for a person that's going to be here for a person that's going to be here for a long time." long time." long time." >> If you're not willing to serve, you're >> If you're not willing to serve, you're >> If you're not willing to serve, you're probably not in a position to probably not in a position to probably not in a position to >> lead. It's that rule never changes, you >> lead. It's that rule never changes, you >> lead. It's that rule never changes, you know? Wow. know? Wow. know? Wow. >> And and that doesn't mean people are not >> And and that doesn't mean people are not >> And and that doesn't mean people are not able to lead at a high level the way able to lead at a high level the way able to lead at a high level the way they did when where they came from. Uh I they did when where they came from. Uh I they did when where they came from. Uh I think about this with young leaders think about this with young leaders think about this with young leaders because now I'm training preachers and because now I'm training preachers and because now I'm training preachers and teachers at our church. Mhm.

teachers at our church. Mhm. teachers at our church. Mhm. >> So, people are an apprentice, they come >> So, people are an apprentice, they come >> So, people are an apprentice, they come in, they have some raw gifts, they're in, they have some raw gifts, they're in, they have some raw gifts, they're studying theology. I'm like, "Okay, studying theology. I'm like, "Okay, studying theology. I'm like, "Okay, there's some," there's some," there's some," >> for the listeners, they might not know >> for the listeners, they might not know >> for the listeners, they might not know this. I mean, we have a a Bible school this. I mean, we have a a Bible school this. I mean, we have a a Bible school crisis in in Canada and North America. crisis in in Canada and North America. crisis in in Canada and North America. Like, yes, we do. Like, yes, we do. Like, yes, we do. >> Nobody knows like where the next >> Nobody knows like where the next >> Nobody knows like where the next generation of leaders are going to come generation of leaders are going to come generation of leaders are going to come from, right? So, no matter how much you from, right? So, no matter how much you from, right? So, no matter how much you talk about revival, the real number we talk about revival, the real number we talk about revival, the real number we should look at is how many people are should look at is how many people are should look at is how many people are attending seminary who want to plant attending seminary who want to plant attending seminary who want to plant churches and go to become leaders in churches and go to become leaders in churches and go to become leaders in church. church. church. >> So, let me play devil's advocate. Yeah. >> So, let me play devil's advocate. Yeah. >> So, let me play devil's advocate. Yeah. Why is seminary still important? Why is seminary still important? Why is seminary still important? Seminary is still important. I mean, not Seminary is still important. I mean, not Seminary is still important. I mean, not in the I'm not talking about the format in the I'm not talking about the format in the I'm not talking about the format of seminary, but seminary as theological of seminary, but seminary as theological of seminary, but seminary as theological education is still important because education is still important because education is still important because secular is going to be the most robust secular is going to be the most robust secular is going to be the most robust critique of the Christian story we've critique of the Christian story we've critique of the Christian story we've ever seen. ever seen. ever seen. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> It's going to push back against all the >> It's going to push back against all the >> It's going to push back against all the things that, you know, we thought people things that, you know, we thought people things that, you know, we thought people understood about Christianity, about understood about Christianity, about understood about Christianity, about church, about the Bible. And unless we church, about the Bible. And unless we church, about the Bible. And unless we have a better way of articulating the have a better way of articulating the have a better way of articulating the Christian story that is rooted in a Christian story that is rooted in a Christian story that is rooted in a theological story, right, we will not theological story, right, we will not theological story, right, we will not have answers for people in a secular have answers for people in a secular have answers for people in a secular culture. And what that will do, it'll culture. And what that will do, it'll culture. And what that will do, it'll only fuel what they've always believed only fuel what they've always believed only fuel what they've always believed about Christians. That they're weak, about Christians. That they're weak, about Christians. That they're weak, ignorant people who just need a God in ignorant people who just need a God in ignorant people who just need a God in the sky to like feel good at night. And the sky to like feel good at night. And the sky to like feel good at night. And I'm like, that's not what the Christian I'm like, that's not what the Christian I'm like, that's not what the Christian story is. I'm not talking academically story is. I'm not talking academically story is. I'm not talking academically here like here like here like >> you know hypothetically or in reality >> you know hypothetically or in reality >> you know hypothetically or in reality >> but in the general narrative is the >> but in the general narrative is the >> but in the general narrative is the secular narrative stronger than the secular narrative stronger than the secular narrative stronger than the Christian narrative right now.

Christian narrative right now. Christian narrative right now. >> The secular way the Christian narrative >> The secular way the Christian narrative >> The secular way the Christian narrative is being expressed in the church. is being expressed in the church. is being expressed in the church. >> Uh I I think so. I think the secular >> Uh I I think so. I think the secular >> Uh I I think so. I think the secular narrative is is more robust in the way narrative is is more robust in the way narrative is is more robust in the way that it it's, you know, it's making more sense of many you know, it's making more sense of many religions or it's making more sense of religions or it's making more sense of religions or it's making more sense of like Christianity needs to dialogue with like Christianity needs to dialogue with like Christianity needs to dialogue with people. What do we do with other people. What do we do with other people. What do we do with other religions? What do we do with people who religions? What do we do with people who religions? What do we do with people who are not Christians? What do we do? Like are not Christians? What do we do? Like are not Christians? What do we do? Like the secular culture has more room for the secular culture has more room for the secular culture has more room for that where Christianity sometimes is that where Christianity sometimes is that where Christianity sometimes is like, well, we've been here the longest. like, well, we've been here the longest. like, well, we've been here the longest. That's the religion. I'm like, well, That's the religion. I'm like, well, That's the religion. I'm like, well, that's not really the only way we can that's not really the only way we can that's not really the only way we can talk about this story. I'm interested in talk about this story. I'm interested in talk about this story. I'm interested in this because I'm I'm working on my new this because I'm I'm working on my new this because I'm I'm working on my new book and I'm I'm working literally this book and I'm I'm working literally this book and I'm I'm working literally this morning before I came to the studio. morning before I came to the studio. morning before I came to the studio. >> I'm working on a chapter called working >> I'm working on a chapter called working >> I'm working on a chapter called working title, why we need to become a more title, why we need to become a more title, why we need to become a more intellectually vibrant community. intellectually vibrant community. intellectually vibrant community. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is actually tied to AI. Yeah. >> And this is actually tied to AI. Yeah. >> And this is actually tied to AI. Yeah. >> But I think it's it's a widespread >> But I think it's it's a widespread >> But I think it's it's a widespread thing. And I think Christians are thing. And I think Christians are thing. And I think Christians are largely largely largely >> not quite taking an academic pass, but >> not quite taking an academic pass, but >> not quite taking an academic pass, but it's like we love the Lord our God with it's like we love the Lord our God with it's like we love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and strength, all of our heart, soul, and strength, all of our heart, soul, and strength, but we forgot our minds but we forgot our minds but we forgot our minds >> 100%. Um, and and I think we're not >> 100%. Um, and and I think we're not >> 100%. Um, and and I think we're not winning the intellectual war.

winning the intellectual war. winning the intellectual war. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We're seen as simplistic. We're seen as >> We're seen as simplistic. We're seen as >> We're seen as simplistic. We're seen as bigoted. We're seen as defensive. We're bigoted. We're seen as defensive. We're bigoted. We're seen as defensive. We're seen as dismissive. seen as dismissive. seen as dismissive. >> And we're not seen we're not taken >> And we're not seen we're not taken >> And we're not seen we're not taken seriously academically seriously academically seriously academically >> right now. >> right now. >> right now. >> Comment on that. >> Comment on that. >> Comment on that. >> No, I think I mean years ago, you >> No, I think I mean years ago, you >> No, I think I mean years ago, you probably have this in your research and probably have this in your research and probably have this in your research and in your reading. I mean Mark Null who's in your reading. I mean Mark Null who's in your reading. I mean Mark Null who's one of the most important historians of one of the most important historians of one of the most important historians of >> the handle of the evangelical mind is >> the handle of the evangelical mind is >> the handle of the evangelical mind is that there isn't much of an evangelical that there isn't much of an evangelical that there isn't much of an evangelical mind mind mind >> and that it's still true in some ways >> and that it's still true in some ways >> and that it's still true in some ways and the internet the internet is only and the internet the internet is only and the internet the internet is only going to speed that up that we can uh going to speed that up that we can uh going to speed that up that we can uh meme our way through the story of meme our way through the story of meme our way through the story of Christianity right or uh tweet our way Christianity right or uh tweet our way Christianity right or uh tweet our way through things. So I think it's true through things. So I think it's true through things. So I think it's true like we need to think about what it like we need to think about what it like we need to think about what it means to provide a more rooted way we means to provide a more rooted way we means to provide a more rooted way we articulate the story of Christianity. I articulate the story of Christianity. I articulate the story of Christianity. I think this is going to require that we think this is going to require that we think this is going to require that we think about the history of Christianity. think about the history of Christianity. think about the history of Christianity. uh a person in my family who's again not uh a person in my family who's again not uh a person in my family who's again not Christian, hasn't visited our church, Christian, hasn't visited our church, Christian, hasn't visited our church, cares very little about the story of cares very little about the story of cares very little about the story of faith and I mean I'm the pastor of the faith and I mean I'm the pastor of the faith and I mean I'm the pastor of the church so they know me very well church so they know me very well church so they know me very well >> said to me once that >> said to me once that >> said to me once that >> Christians need to understand that from >> Christians need to understand that from >> Christians need to understand that from a secular perspective Christianity looks a secular perspective Christianity looks a secular perspective Christianity looks like a pluralistic religion like a pluralistic religion like a pluralistic religion >> and I was like wow and what they meant >> and I was like wow and what they meant >> and I was like wow and what they meant is that when somebody's learning about is that when somebody's learning about is that when somebody's learning about Christianity there's like hundreds of Christianity there's like hundreds of Christianity there's like hundreds of variations of Christianity that all variations of Christianity that all variations of Christianity that all argue with each other and fight so which argue with each other and fight so which argue with each other and fight so which one of you is really Christian, not even one of you is really Christian, not even one of you is really Christian, not even in a in a being anti-Christian way, just in a in a being anti-Christian way, just in a in a being anti-Christian way, just an intellectual conversation like so on an intellectual conversation like so on an intellectual conversation like so on our street, the Baptist, the our street, the Baptist, the our street, the Baptist, the Presbyterian, the Catholic, this that Presbyterian, the Catholic, this that Presbyterian, the Catholic, this that like you guys don't seem to get along.

like you guys don't seem to get along. like you guys don't seem to get along. Why would you invite anybody into the Why would you invite anybody into the Why would you invite anybody into the story? story? story? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, one of the things that I think the >> So, one of the things that I think the >> So, one of the things that I think the intellectual conversations of the future intellectual conversations of the future intellectual conversations of the future have to do is they have to get have to do is they have to get have to do is they have to get Christians talking about what they agree Christians talking about what they agree Christians talking about what they agree on together, what we affirm as on together, what we affirm as on together, what we affirm as Christians, and that the diversity in Christians, and that the diversity in Christians, and that the diversity in Christianity doesn't have to be like a Christianity doesn't have to be like a Christianity doesn't have to be like a demonizing of other Christians. And the demonizing of other Christians. And the demonizing of other Christians. And the internet shows us a different picture of internet shows us a different picture of internet shows us a different picture of that. A very different picture. that. A very different picture. that. A very different picture. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> why do you think Christian Yeah. Why do >> why do you think Christian Yeah. Why do >> why do you think Christian Yeah. Why do you think Christians are fine not being you think Christians are fine not being you think Christians are fine not being academically trained? Uh, and and being academically trained? Uh, and and being academically trained? Uh, and and being able to think issues through to first able to think issues through to first able to think issues through to first principles. Why are they okay operating principles. Why are they okay operating principles. Why are they okay operating in sound by bites? Um, ideas that were in sound by bites? Um, ideas that were in sound by bites? Um, ideas that were handed down to them but not really handed down to them but not really handed down to them but not really tested. tested. tested. >> Yeah. Well, one of the reasons is I >> Yeah. Well, one of the reasons is I >> Yeah. Well, one of the reasons is I think that for the many people today think that for the many people today think that for the many people today have been raised in a self-help culture have been raised in a self-help culture have been raised in a self-help culture like just do it yourself, you know, like just do it yourself, you know, like just do it yourself, you know, however you want. And then the however you want. And then the however you want. And then the Christianity is like I could do it Christianity is like I could do it Christianity is like I could do it myself. Uh they wouldn't apply that to myself. Uh they wouldn't apply that to myself. Uh they wouldn't apply that to being a pilot or being a mechanic or being a pilot or being a mechanic or being a pilot or being a mechanic or being like a dentist like but but being like a dentist like but but being like a dentist like but but Christianity almost allows somebody to Christianity almost allows somebody to Christianity almost allows somebody to be like I'm a hairdresser. I'm doing a be like I'm a hairdresser. I'm doing a be like I'm a hairdresser. I'm doing a church. I'm a plumber. I'm doing you church. I'm a plumber. I'm doing you church. I'm a plumber. I'm doing you know. So there is a bit of that know. So there is a bit of that know. So there is a bit of that >> part of it too carries I think for years >> part of it too carries I think for years >> part of it too carries I think for years we had an u esquetology maybe is a new we had an u esquetology maybe is a new we had an u esquetology maybe is a new word for the listener but but we have word for the listener but but we have word for the listener but but we have this urgency about reaching people fast this urgency about reaching people fast this urgency about reaching people fast cuz Jesus is coming back. I don't have cuz Jesus is coming back. I don't have cuz Jesus is coming back. I don't have time for time for time for >> we don't have time to spend two years >> we don't have time to spend two years >> we don't have time to spend two years studying like Greek. Who cares? Let's studying like Greek. Who cares? Let's studying like Greek. Who cares? Let's get out there.

get out there. get out there. >> Systematics. >> Systematics. >> Systematics. >> Who needs that? You know, let's get out >> Who needs that? You know, let's get out >> Who needs that? You know, let's get out there. So, I think the internet like there. So, I think the internet like there. So, I think the internet like pushes this speed. And I think that pushes this speed. And I think that pushes this speed. And I think that we've kind of maybe bought into that, we've kind of maybe bought into that, we've kind of maybe bought into that, which is not the wisest way to approach which is not the wisest way to approach which is not the wisest way to approach leader development. leader development. leader development. >> And the other thing, too, is that I >> And the other thing, too, is that I >> And the other thing, too, is that I think we have to get so serious about think we have to get so serious about think we have to get so serious about the fact that we can't just let anyone the fact that we can't just let anyone the fact that we can't just let anyone practice leadership or unrooted theology practice leadership or unrooted theology practice leadership or unrooted theology on God's people. like you don't get to on God's people. like you don't get to on God's people. like you don't get to practice on God's people because you practice on God's people because you practice on God's people because you were undisiplined to really grow and were undisiplined to really grow and were undisiplined to really grow and learn and study under somebody right the learn and study under somebody right the learn and study under somebody right the word understand means to sit under word understand means to sit under word understand means to sit under somebody else right it's the somebody else right it's the somebody else right it's the apprenticeship of a person that is apprenticeship of a person that is apprenticeship of a person that is trusted respected has done the work of trusted respected has done the work of trusted respected has done the work of you know their ideas being tested and so you know their ideas being tested and so you know their ideas being tested and so if we don't deal with this I think we're if we don't deal with this I think we're if we don't deal with this I think we're going to see two things increase going to see two things increase going to see two things increase celebrity preachers will increase which celebrity preachers will increase which celebrity preachers will increase which most people think is one of the most most people think is one of the most most people think is one of the most challenging things of our time because challenging things of our time because challenging things of our time because it's based on popularity by just it's based on popularity by just it's based on popularity by just numbers. If a lot of people follow you, numbers. If a lot of people follow you, numbers. If a lot of people follow you, you start a church, you start a church, you start a church, >> right? Versus saying a lot of people >> right? Versus saying a lot of people >> right? Versus saying a lot of people might follow you, but there's a lot of might follow you, but there's a lot of might follow you, but there's a lot of things that start that way that are very things that start that way that are very things that start that way that are very unhealthy. And and younger people are unhealthy. And and younger people are unhealthy. And and younger people are very nervous about that kind of idea, very nervous about that kind of idea, very nervous about that kind of idea, like one person having all this power like one person having all this power like one person having all this power because of a lot of popularity is that, because of a lot of popularity is that, because of a lot of popularity is that, you know, and and here's the thing that you know, and and here's the thing that you know, and and here's the thing that happens. If it's growing, guess who must happens. If it's growing, guess who must happens. If it's growing, guess who must be in it?

be in it? be in it? >> God. >> God. >> God. >> Well, I know a lot of things that grow >> Well, I know a lot of things that grow >> Well, I know a lot of things that grow that God is really not at the center of that God is really not at the center of that God is really not at the center of those things, right? So, that'll those things, right? So, that'll those things, right? So, that'll continue. And I think the literature continue. And I think the literature continue. And I think the literature showing that religious trauma and showing that religious trauma and showing that religious trauma and spiritual abuse, a deep thing that spiritual abuse, a deep thing that spiritual abuse, a deep thing that should concern us, will continue to should concern us, will continue to should concern us, will continue to increase if we let unequipped pastors increase if we let unequipped pastors increase if we let unequipped pastors pastor God's people. So this movement to pastor God's people. So this movement to pastor God's people. So this movement to you know the chapter of your book and a you know the chapter of your book and a you know the chapter of your book and a more rooted formation for leaders is more rooted formation for leaders is more rooted formation for leaders is really you know is is so urgent if we really you know is is so urgent if we really you know is is so urgent if we hope to reverse some of the things that hope to reverse some of the things that hope to reverse some of the things that people when they equate with people when they equate with people when they equate with Christianity they see like these very Christianity they see like these very Christianity they see like these very negative stereotypes and experiences and negative stereotypes and experiences and negative stereotypes and experiences and you know do you have any thoughts you know do you have any thoughts you know do you have any thoughts because you know the dilemma is and I'm because you know the dilemma is and I'm because you know the dilemma is and I'm just going to sort of broad categories just going to sort of broad categories just going to sort of broad categories here here here >> seminaries often are seen as producing >> seminaries often are seen as producing >> seminaries often are seen as producing leaders who are not capable of leaders who are not capable of leaders who are not capable of particularly doing a great job leading a particularly doing a great job leading a particularly doing a great job leading a church church church >> and then the growing churches have a >> and then the growing churches have a >> and then the growing churches have a whole bunch of leaders who haven't been whole bunch of leaders who haven't been whole bunch of leaders who haven't been to seminary who need to get theological to seminary who need to get theological to seminary who need to get theological training. In other words, there's a gap, training. In other words, there's a gap, training. In other words, there's a gap, right? Like we ran into that here. I've right? Like we ran into that here. I've right? Like we ran into that here. I've seen so many churches where it's like, seen so many churches where it's like, seen so many churches where it's like, yeah, seminaries are not popping out yeah, seminaries are not popping out yeah, seminaries are not popping out people who are doing a great job in people who are doing a great job in people who are doing a great job in their ecclesiology. Maybe they their ecclesiology. Maybe they their ecclesiology. Maybe they understand it academically but can't understand it academically but can't understand it academically but can't lead on the ground. Meanwhile, you know, lead on the ground. Meanwhile, you know, lead on the ground. Meanwhile, you know, growing churches are picking up people growing churches are picking up people growing churches are picking up people from the congregation who are from the congregation who are from the congregation who are brilliantly gifted brilliantly gifted brilliantly gifted >> but don't have the theological >> but don't have the theological >> but don't have the theological background.

background. background. >> So, what does theological education look >> So, what does theological education look >> So, what does theological education look like moving forward? like moving forward? like moving forward? >> Yeah, Carrie. I mean, if we solve that >> Yeah, Carrie. I mean, if we solve that >> Yeah, Carrie. I mean, if we solve that today, today, today, >> yeah, I know we're going to be rich, >> yeah, I know we're going to be rich, >> yeah, I know we're going to be rich, >> you know, all I know, everybody's like >> you know, all I know, everybody's like >> you know, all I know, everybody's like working through that, right? Like, I working through that, right? Like, I working through that, right? Like, I mean, that is the 3D Rubik's cube of our mean, that is the 3D Rubik's cube of our mean, that is the 3D Rubik's cube of our time. It like time. It like time. It like >> we're we're figuring this out. You know, >> we're we're figuring this out. You know, >> we're we're figuring this out. You know, the encouraging thing because of my, you the encouraging thing because of my, you the encouraging thing because of my, you know, studies in history and my PhD in know, studies in history and my PhD in know, studies in history and my PhD in history is Christians have had to do history is Christians have had to do history is Christians have had to do this before. this before. this before. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, they've had to navigate a >> You know, they've had to navigate a >> You know, they've had to navigate a revolution of learning, printing press, revolution of learning, printing press, revolution of learning, printing press, all kinds of new ideas at a time of, you all kinds of new ideas at a time of, you all kinds of new ideas at a time of, you know, a very a church that was very know, a very a church that was very know, a very a church that was very divided. You think of the reformation, divided. You think of the reformation, divided. You think of the reformation, Catholic Church, European kind of Catholic Church, European kind of Catholic Church, European kind of revolution while the scientific age was revolution while the scientific age was revolution while the scientific age was emerging. So, so I often think like we emerging. So, so I often think like we emerging. So, so I often think like we have diversity and division in the have diversity and division in the have diversity and division in the church. We have new technological tools church. We have new technological tools church. We have new technological tools and we have an emerging shift in and we have an emerging shift in and we have an emerging shift in culture. culture. culture. >> So when you look at the 1600s, 1500s, >> So when you look at the 1600s, 1500s, >> So when you look at the 1600s, 1500s, which is the reformation period, which which is the reformation period, which which is the reformation period, which is kind of uh my my area of study, is kind of uh my my area of study, is kind of uh my my area of study, >> you see patterns that the church >> you see patterns that the church >> you see patterns that the church navigated that seem very similar to the navigated that seem very similar to the navigated that seem very similar to the season we're in now. season we're in now. season we're in now. >> What do you see?

>> What do you see? >> What do you see? >> Well, one is we see the church so >> Well, one is we see the church so >> Well, one is we see the church so concerned about getting some things concerned about getting some things concerned about getting some things right that it can miss some things that right that it can miss some things that right that it can miss some things that are happening in culture that they are happening in culture that they are happening in culture that they should be paying attention to like should be paying attention to like should be paying attention to like right. So like while the church in in I right. So like while the church in in I right. So like while the church in in I think during the reformation period is think during the reformation period is think during the reformation period is very concerned about salvation very concerned about salvation very concerned about salvation justification and they should have been justification and they should have been justification and they should have been right this correcting you know mis right this correcting you know mis right this correcting you know mis misguided ideas of the bible there's misguided ideas of the bible there's misguided ideas of the bible there's this internal argument like with the this internal argument like with the this internal argument like with the church within the church while at the church within the church while at the church within the church while at the same time the scientific community is same time the scientific community is same time the scientific community is saying we think we've misunderstood the saying we think we've misunderstood the saying we think we've misunderstood the whole solar system and you're like what whole solar system and you're like what whole solar system and you're like what do you mean? Well the earth is actually do you mean? Well the earth is actually do you mean? Well the earth is actually not the center of everything the sun is. not the center of everything the sun is. not the center of everything the sun is. So while the church is having this So while the church is having this So while the church is having this conversation here, the world is saying conversation here, the world is saying conversation here, the world is saying there's a revolution that you guys we there's a revolution that you guys we there's a revolution that you guys we should be ready for like and we're not. should be ready for like and we're not. should be ready for like and we're not. >> And you see that parallel today. >> And you see that parallel today. >> And you see that parallel today. >> I feel that there is a growing parallel >> I feel that there is a growing parallel >> I feel that there is a growing parallel that as the church is wrestling with that as the church is wrestling with that as the church is wrestling with this internal struggle of who we are. this internal struggle of who we are. this internal struggle of who we are. How are we training leaders? Are people How are we training leaders? Are people How are we training leaders? Are people going to you know there's an AI going to you know there's an AI going to you know there's an AI revolution that's brewing around us revolution that's brewing around us revolution that's brewing around us >> and everybody's thinking hey leaders of >> and everybody's thinking hey leaders of >> and everybody's thinking hey leaders of the church as you think about your the church as you think about your the church as you think about your theological ideas is anybody thinking theological ideas is anybody thinking theological ideas is anybody thinking about that? Yeah. Because we're all about that? Yeah. Because we're all about that? Yeah. Because we're all talking about what prompt we should use talking about what prompt we should use talking about what prompt we should use or whether we should use it. It's like, or whether we should use it. It's like, or whether we should use it. It's like, no, that's not the conversation. That's no, that's not the conversation. That's no, that's not the conversation. That's what my book's about.

what my book's about. what my book's about. >> Yeah. And I mean, think about this >> Yeah. And I mean, think about this >> Yeah. And I mean, think about this simple idea. You know, my I have three simple idea. You know, my I have three simple idea. You know, my I have three boys, young boys. I think about the boys, young boys. I think about the boys, young boys. I think about the things that they're talking to me about. things that they're talking to me about. things that they're talking to me about. >> You know, they're going to be asking us >> You know, they're going to be asking us >> You know, they're going to be asking us if they can come to church with a pet if they can come to church with a pet if they can come to church with a pet robot, right? While we're having debates robot, right? While we're having debates robot, right? While we're having debates on who's allowed to speak on stage or on who's allowed to speak on stage or on who's allowed to speak on stage or who's like I'm like, "Oh my goodness." who's like I'm like, "Oh my goodness." who's like I'm like, "Oh my goodness." Like, this is going to be so complex. Like, this is going to be so complex. Like, this is going to be so complex. >> And what if they end up in a, you know, >> And what if they end up in a, you know, >> And what if they end up in a, you know, having romantic feelings toward a having romantic feelings toward a having romantic feelings toward a chatbot? chatbot? chatbot? >> Bingo. And like what verse in the Bible >> Bingo. And like what verse in the Bible >> Bingo. And like what verse in the Bible you going to go to for that? you going to go to for that? you going to go to for that? >> Mhm. Mhm. It's going to Yeah. So that's >> Mhm. Mhm. It's going to Yeah. So that's >> Mhm. Mhm. It's going to Yeah. So that's what I mean. It's going to require what I mean. It's going to require what I mean. It's going to require deeply rooted, intellectually grounded deeply rooted, intellectually grounded deeply rooted, intellectually grounded leaders to one, not create a fear leaders to one, not create a fear leaders to one, not create a fear culture when that happens culture when that happens culture when that happens >> to say, "Hey, hey, the church has >> to say, "Hey, hey, the church has >> to say, "Hey, hey, the church has navigated pretty complex things in navigated pretty complex things in navigated pretty complex things in history." So we got like a great legacy history." So we got like a great legacy history." So we got like a great legacy for this, but we don't have the answer for this, but we don't have the answer for this, but we don't have the answer for this. It's different. We have a for this. It's different. We have a for this. It's different. We have a trajectory for this, but the answer trajectory for this, but the answer trajectory for this, but the answer requires wisdom, prayer, reflection, requires wisdom, prayer, reflection, requires wisdom, prayer, reflection, dialogue, and even mistakes. Like we're dialogue, and even mistakes. Like we're dialogue, and even mistakes. Like we're going to try some things and be like, going to try some things and be like, going to try some things and be like, "Okay, that wasn't a good idea. We have "Okay, that wasn't a good idea. We have "Okay, that wasn't a good idea. We have to correct that." Right? And if we're to correct that." Right? And if we're to correct that." Right? And if we're not careful, I think that space of, you not careful, I think that space of, you not careful, I think that space of, you know, intellectual dialogue rooted in know, intellectual dialogue rooted in know, intellectual dialogue rooted in who Jesus really is and how he makes all who Jesus really is and how he makes all who Jesus really is and how he makes all things new, right, becomes like absorbed things new, right, becomes like absorbed things new, right, becomes like absorbed by fear, concern. And if Carrie, you try by fear, concern. And if Carrie, you try by fear, concern. And if Carrie, you try something that I disagree with, well, something that I disagree with, well, something that I disagree with, well, you're a heretic versus saying, you you're a heretic versus saying, you you're a heretic versus saying, you know, Carrie, like as you try that, tell know, Carrie, like as you try that, tell know, Carrie, like as you try that, tell us what you're learning because we know us what you're learning because we know us what you're learning because we know you love Jesus and we know you love the you love Jesus and we know you love the you love Jesus and we know you love the church, right? It's such a different church, right? It's such a different church, right? It's such a different approach and I think that's kind of approach and I think that's kind of approach and I think that's kind of missing right now. This episode is missing right now. This episode is missing right now. This episode is brought to you by the state of the brought to you by the state of the brought to you by the state of the church. So, it's hard to believe we're church. So, it's hard to believe we're church. So, it's hard to believe we're already looking ahead to 2026. And maybe already looking ahead to 2026. And maybe already looking ahead to 2026. And maybe you've been stuck wondering, how are my

you've been stuck wondering, how are my you've been stuck wondering, how are my people really doing? Well, I've got Brad people really doing? Well, I've got Brad people really doing? Well, I've got Brad Hill from Glue here to talk about Hill from Glue here to talk about Hill from Glue here to talk about something that will help you know your something that will help you know your something that will help you know your people better and lead with clarity next people better and lead with clarity next people better and lead with clarity next year. year. year. >> Absolutely, Carrie. It's almost uh happy >> Absolutely, Carrie. It's almost uh happy >> Absolutely, Carrie. It's almost uh happy new year time, right? And new year time, right? And new year time, right? And >> really, the best time of year, I think, >> really, the best time of year, I think, >> really, the best time of year, I think, is that start of the calendar year to is that start of the calendar year to is that start of the calendar year to get a pulse on your people. there's so get a pulse on your people. there's so get a pulse on your people. there's so much energy from them around goal much energy from them around goal much energy from them around goal setting and and how to flourish well setting and and how to flourish well setting and and how to flourish well this coming year. So the church pulse, this coming year. So the church pulse, this coming year. So the church pulse, it's a tool that makes it easy to know it's a tool that makes it easy to know it's a tool that makes it easy to know how your people are doing and where they how your people are doing and where they how your people are doing and where they want to grow. Um it'll assess things want to grow. Um it'll assess things want to grow. Um it'll assess things like how they're feeling, what they're like how they're feeling, what they're like how they're feeling, what they're struggling with, and what they're struggling with, and what they're struggling with, and what they're looking for from the church right now. looking for from the church right now. looking for from the church right now. So when you think about your preaching So when you think about your preaching So when you think about your preaching and programming and staffing next year, and programming and staffing next year, and programming and staffing next year, instead of guessing, you can actually instead of guessing, you can actually instead of guessing, you can actually use data to shape your 2026 ministry use data to shape your 2026 ministry use data to shape your 2026 ministry plan. Well, that's the part that excites plan. Well, that's the part that excites plan. Well, that's the part that excites me the most. And if you want to discover me the most. And if you want to discover me the most. And if you want to discover more, go to stateoftheurch.com/carry more, go to stateoftheurch.com/carry more, go to stateoftheurch.com/carry and make a plan now so that you can lead and make a plan now so that you can lead and make a plan now so that you can lead with confidence this next year. That's with confidence this next year. That's with confidence this next year. That's stateoftheurch.com/carry.

stateoftheurch.com/carry. stateoftheurch.com/carry. What do you worry about for your boys as What do you worry about for your boys as What do you worry about for your boys as they get older? They're growing up in a they get older? They're growing up in a they get older? They're growing up in a profoundly secular culture. Yeah. profoundly secular culture. Yeah. profoundly secular culture. Yeah. >> Um, you know, in the mid 2020s, what >> Um, you know, in the mid 2020s, what >> Um, you know, in the mid 2020s, what what are you worried about for them? You what are you worried about for them? You what are you worried about for them? You know, one of the things I worry about know, one of the things I worry about know, one of the things I worry about the most is that they would kind of just the most is that they would kind of just the most is that they would kind of just miss out on the fact that their gifts, miss out on the fact that their gifts, miss out on the fact that their gifts, their passions, and the things they're their passions, and the things they're their passions, and the things they're excited about are things that God has excited about are things that God has excited about are things that God has given to them given to them given to them >> in order to use them in a way that is >> in order to use them in a way that is >> in order to use them in a way that is very meaningful in the world, you know. very meaningful in the world, you know. very meaningful in the world, you know. So, I'm worried that maybe they'll get So, I'm worried that maybe they'll get So, I'm worried that maybe they'll get unanchored from the story of Jesus unanchored from the story of Jesus unanchored from the story of Jesus because of pace, because of noise, because of pace, because of noise, because of pace, because of noise, because of everything that they're because of everything that they're because of everything that they're seeing, and because maybe they they hear seeing, and because maybe they they hear seeing, and because maybe they they hear a lot of things online that says, "Oh, a lot of things online that says, "Oh, a lot of things online that says, "Oh, the Christian story, this is this old the Christian story, this is this old the Christian story, this is this old story that people used to believe." You story that people used to believe." You story that people used to believe." You know, the Bible's this ancient book of know, the Bible's this ancient book of know, the Bible's this ancient book of rules, you know, that you look at rules, you know, that you look at rules, you know, that you look at sometimes if you have a problem or you sometimes if you have a problem or you sometimes if you have a problem or you might post a little psalm on your social might post a little psalm on your social might post a little psalm on your social media, but you don't understand the the media, but you don't understand the the media, but you don't understand the the fabric of the scriptures. you know, the fabric of the scriptures. you know, the fabric of the scriptures. you know, the great story that actually allows us to great story that actually allows us to great story that actually allows us to actually have a Bible, right? And so actually have a Bible, right? And so actually have a Bible, right? And so that's why I wrote a book on the Bible that's why I wrote a book on the Bible that's why I wrote a book on the Bible for a shifting secular age. I actually for a shifting secular age. I actually for a shifting secular age. I actually wanted my boys to know that every time wanted my boys to know that every time wanted my boys to know that every time you you're holding a Bible, you're you you're holding a Bible, you're you you're holding a Bible, you're actually holding the work of deeply actually holding the work of deeply actually holding the work of deeply intellectual leaders who sacrificed in intellectual leaders who sacrificed in intellectual leaders who sacrificed in such a way that we would have the such a way that we would have the such a way that we would have the scriptures in our own language. Right?

scriptures in our own language. Right? scriptures in our own language. Right? And that gets lost in in our culture, And that gets lost in in our culture, And that gets lost in in our culture, right? Oh, the Bible fell out of the sky right? Oh, the Bible fell out of the sky right? Oh, the Bible fell out of the sky and it's just we just have them. And I'm and it's just we just have them. And I'm and it's just we just have them. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. The Bible is the like, no, no, no, no. The Bible is the like, no, no, no, no. The Bible is the greatest revolution of a church that greatest revolution of a church that greatest revolution of a church that engaged with a changing culture. What engaged with a changing culture. What engaged with a changing culture. What does the secular world or the secular does the secular world or the secular does the secular world or the secular mind uh get wrong about the Bible? mind uh get wrong about the Bible? mind uh get wrong about the Bible? >> Well, one they think it's irrelevant >> Well, one they think it's irrelevant >> Well, one they think it's irrelevant >> or when they do think it's a little bit >> or when they do think it's a little bit >> or when they do think it's a little bit relevant, it's like just to solve a relevant, it's like just to solve a relevant, it's like just to solve a problem or how they engage with the problem or how they engage with the problem or how they engage with the Bible sometimes happens through internet Bible sometimes happens through internet Bible sometimes happens through internet devices because that's how you you learn devices because that's how you you learn devices because that's how you you learn it, right? it, right? it, right? >> Which makes you hear the scriptures in a >> Which makes you hear the scriptures in a >> Which makes you hear the scriptures in a disembodied way. Okay. All of the disembodied way. Okay. All of the disembodied way. Okay. All of the scriptures are given to us in an scriptures are given to us in an scriptures are given to us in an embodied communities. Right? Nobody in embodied communities. Right? Nobody in embodied communities. Right? Nobody in the ancient world would have ever heard the ancient world would have ever heard the ancient world would have ever heard anything of the Bible if they not did anything of the Bible if they not did anything of the Bible if they not did not sit next to somebody who was also not sit next to somebody who was also not sit next to somebody who was also trying to learn the Bible. Right? There trying to learn the Bible. Right? There trying to learn the Bible. Right? There was a community fabric of like saying, was a community fabric of like saying, was a community fabric of like saying, "Hey, I'm listening to this and you're "Hey, I'm listening to this and you're "Hey, I'm listening to this and you're listening to this. So, what are you listening to this. So, what are you listening to this. So, what are you hearing? What am I hearing? And what is hearing? What am I hearing? And what is hearing? What am I hearing? And what is God saying to us?" And that picture is a God saying to us?" And that picture is a God saying to us?" And that picture is a picture of that we are accountable for picture of that we are accountable for picture of that we are accountable for the things we just heard. And I think the things we just heard. And I think the things we just heard. And I think today because again our technological today because again our technological today because again our technological revolutions like the internet and revolutions like the internet and revolutions like the internet and preachers online, you know, a mentor preachers online, you know, a mentor preachers online, you know, a mentor used to say to me that if you can pause used to say to me that if you can pause used to say to me that if you can pause a sermon at any point, you're not a sermon at any point, you're not a sermon at any point, you're not listening to the Bible the way it's listening to the Bible the way it's listening to the Bible the way it's meant to be heard.

meant to be heard. meant to be heard. >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> It means that if you can walk away >> It means that if you can walk away >> It means that if you can walk away whenever the the microwave goes off or whenever the the microwave goes off or whenever the the microwave goes off or whenever like their kids was crying, whenever like their kids was crying, whenever like their kids was crying, whenever the the sacred moment of God whenever the the sacred moment of God whenever the the sacred moment of God speaking to you consistently that this speaking to you consistently that this speaking to you consistently that this is for you can be bypassed by something is for you can be bypassed by something is for you can be bypassed by something you're doing right now, which is like I you're doing right now, which is like I you're doing right now, which is like I got to go now. Pause at 15 seconds of got to go now. Pause at 15 seconds of got to go now. Pause at 15 seconds of that sermon. gotta go. I'll come back. that sermon. gotta go. I'll come back. that sermon. gotta go. I'll come back. Oh, what was that sermon about? Uh, Oh, what was that sermon about? Uh, Oh, what was that sermon about? Uh, like, like, like, >> oh, we're writing sermons with sound >> oh, we're writing sermons with sound >> oh, we're writing sermons with sound bites in mind now and reals in mind in bites in mind now and reals in mind in bites in mind now and reals in mind in mind now. So, what does that mean? mind now. So, what does that mean? mind now. So, what does that mean? >> Yeah, exactly. So, that's our new It's >> Yeah, exactly. So, that's our new It's >> Yeah, exactly. So, that's our new It's our new future. So, how do we embrace our new future. So, how do we embrace our new future. So, how do we embrace the gift of technology? Cuz I mean, I'm the gift of technology? Cuz I mean, I'm the gift of technology? Cuz I mean, I'm not a person that says, you know, no not a person that says, you know, no not a person that says, you know, no internet, never, right? How do we do internet, never, right? How do we do internet, never, right? How do we do that? But how do we also embrace that if that? But how do we also embrace that if that? But how do we also embrace that if we're not careful, this medium will we're not careful, this medium will we're not careful, this medium will distort the gift of the Bible? How are distort the gift of the Bible? How are distort the gift of the Bible? How are preachers, and I'm asking you to speak preachers, and I'm asking you to speak preachers, and I'm asking you to speak generally, not specifically. How are generally, not specifically. How are generally, not specifically. How are preachers preachers preachers >> distorting or misunderstanding the gift >> distorting or misunderstanding the gift >> distorting or misunderstanding the gift of scripture? How have we been co-opted of scripture? How have we been co-opted of scripture? How have we been co-opted by the culture? I guess. by the culture? I guess. by the culture? I guess. >> Yeah. I mean, that's huge. I I mean, I >> Yeah. I mean, that's huge. I I mean, I >> Yeah. I mean, that's huge. I I mean, I don't want to don't want to don't want to >> I love preachers cuz preaching is so >> I love preachers cuz preaching is so >> I love preachers cuz preaching is so hard, right? I mean, I think we want to hard, right? I mean, I think we want to hard, right? I mean, I think we want to be careful. I think preachers can often be careful. I think preachers can often be careful. I think preachers can often times one uh preach in such a way that times one uh preach in such a way that times one uh preach in such a way that doesn't draw people to remembering the doesn't draw people to remembering the doesn't draw people to remembering the sacred community of the church, sacred community of the church, sacred community of the church, >> right? you can just have preaching >> right? you can just have preaching >> right? you can just have preaching online and and and it can lose the fact online and and and it can lose the fact online and and and it can lose the fact that that that >> there is something about this story that >> there is something about this story that >> there is something about this story that requires embodiment and and and requires embodiment and and and requires embodiment and and and proximity and disciplehip. So, I don't proximity and disciplehip. So, I don't proximity and disciplehip. So, I don't think preachers do that intentionally, think preachers do that intentionally, think preachers do that intentionally, but it can happen, right? I have a lot but it can happen, right? I have a lot but it can happen, right? I have a lot of followers. I have a lot of followers of followers. I have a lot of followers of followers. I have a lot of followers online and they just listen to me. And online and they just listen to me. And online and they just listen to me. And if you don't come to church, it doesn't if you don't come to church, it doesn't if you don't come to church, it doesn't matter. Well, wait a second. We we need matter. Well, wait a second. We we need matter. Well, wait a second. We we need to kind of think about what what we're

to kind of think about what what we're to kind of think about what what we're maybe teaching by mistake. Like you know maybe teaching by mistake. Like you know maybe teaching by mistake. Like you know the other thing too is I think there's the other thing too is I think there's the other thing too is I think there's something about the scriptures that gets something about the scriptures that gets something about the scriptures that gets lost in our technological age that is lost in our technological age that is lost in our technological age that is the rooted I'll use a theological word the rooted I'll use a theological word the rooted I'll use a theological word here the rooted sacramental way of the here the rooted sacramental way of the here the rooted sacramental way of the church. What does that mean? Sacramental church. What does that mean? Sacramental church. What does that mean? Sacramental is the term that Christians often have is the term that Christians often have is the term that Christians often have gone back to around the mysterious thing gone back to around the mysterious thing gone back to around the mysterious thing that God does when his people are that God does when his people are that God does when his people are together. together. together. >> Just that simple idea. It's actually >> Just that simple idea. It's actually >> Just that simple idea. It's actually more complex but in a simple way, right? more complex but in a simple way, right? more complex but in a simple way, right? And there are two things that we often And there are two things that we often And there are two things that we often think about when we think about think about when we think about think about when we think about sacramental and that is baptism and that sacramental and that is baptism and that sacramental and that is baptism and that is communion. If you're Protestants, you is communion. If you're Protestants, you is communion. If you're Protestants, you know, there's other we can have that know, there's other we can have that know, there's other we can have that debate another time. But in general, debate another time. But in general, debate another time. But in general, just think of baptism and communion. And just think of baptism and communion. And just think of baptism and communion. And I often tell our leaders, you know, I often tell our leaders, you know, I often tell our leaders, you know, Christians, there are two things they Christians, there are two things they Christians, there are two things they never did for themselves. No one never did for themselves. No one never did for themselves. No one baptizes themsel and no one should just baptizes themsel and no one should just baptizes themsel and no one should just take communion by themselves. It was a take communion by themselves. It was a take communion by themselves. It was a given. Nobody ever thought that somebody given. Nobody ever thought that somebody given. Nobody ever thought that somebody would do it. You don't just dunk would do it. You don't just dunk would do it. You don't just dunk yourself in the bathtub and be like, yourself in the bathtub and be like, yourself in the bathtub and be like, "Hey, I call somebody. I got I baptized "Hey, I call somebody. I got I baptized "Hey, I call somebody. I got I baptized myself." They're like, "What? Don't you myself." They're like, "What? Don't you myself." They're like, "What? Don't you have to do that in and for a mile? have to do that in and for a mile? have to do that in and for a mile? >> We would say it's not legit, >> We would say it's not legit, >> We would say it's not legit, >> right? And we would say that because >> right? And we would say that because >> right? And we would say that because there's the mystery of how God is there's the mystery of how God is there's the mystery of how God is present in this practice is that it's present in this practice is that it's present in this practice is that it's made for other people to celebrate with made for other people to celebrate with made for other people to celebrate with you, for other people to say, "I'm you, for other people to say, "I'm you, for other people to say, "I'm baptized into a family. I'm baptized baptized into a family. I'm baptized baptized into a family. I'm baptized into a community." Right? So, there's into a community." Right? So, there's into a community." Right? So, there's all these assumptions.

all these assumptions. all these assumptions. When preachers lose that rootedness to When preachers lose that rootedness to When preachers lose that rootedness to this living sacramental way of the story this living sacramental way of the story this living sacramental way of the story of Christianity, the Bible starts to be of Christianity, the Bible starts to be of Christianity, the Bible starts to be heard as individual book pep talk for heard as individual book pep talk for heard as individual book pep talk for me, positivity for the day, this and me, positivity for the day, this and me, positivity for the day, this and that. I got my word from the Lord today. that. I got my word from the Lord today. that. I got my word from the Lord today. I got and and there's a a massive kind I got and and there's a a massive kind I got and and there's a a massive kind of devotional like culture like I meet of devotional like culture like I meet of devotional like culture like I meet people all the time like I haven't seen people all the time like I haven't seen people all the time like I haven't seen you at church, you know, we miss you. you at church, you know, we miss you. you at church, you know, we miss you. Well, I did church with my friends at Well, I did church with my friends at Well, I did church with my friends at Starbucks. I'm like you did church with Starbucks. I'm like you did church with Starbucks. I'm like you did church with your friends at Starbucks. your friends at Starbucks. your friends at Starbucks. Like everything in me says that's not Like everything in me says that's not Like everything in me says that's not the way it should be. But a lot of the way it should be. But a lot of the way it should be. But a lot of people would say, but I don't have the people would say, but I don't have the people would say, but I don't have the words to explain why that's not the way words to explain why that's not the way words to explain why that's not the way the Bible's meant to be read. Right? the Bible's meant to be read. Right? the Bible's meant to be read. Right? >> So I'm like, so you read this Bible at >> So I'm like, so you read this Bible at >> So I'm like, so you read this Bible at Starbucks with just some friends. The Starbucks with just some friends. The Starbucks with just some friends. The Bible that was written to churches for Bible that was written to churches for Bible that was written to churches for churches for people to learn how to be churches for people to learn how to be churches for people to learn how to be the church and you never go to church. the church and you never go to church. the church and you never go to church. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We've done something to the Bible when >> We've done something to the Bible when >> We've done something to the Bible when that can happen. Now, I'm not saying you that can happen. Now, I'm not saying you that can happen. Now, I'm not saying you should never go to Starbucks and read should never go to Starbucks and read should never go to Starbucks and read the Bible with your friends, right? But the Bible with your friends, right? But the Bible with your friends, right? But the trajectory of this sacred story is a the trajectory of this sacred story is a the trajectory of this sacred story is a sacred family. Should the church be sacred family. Should the church be sacred family. Should the church be online then?

online then? online then? >> It I I I don't think we can not be >> It I I I don't think we can not be >> It I I I don't think we can not be online. I mean the church needs to needs online. I mean the church needs to needs online. I mean the church needs to needs to find ways to to find ways to to find ways to >> the genie has left the bottle. >> the genie has left the bottle. >> the genie has left the bottle. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like saying should you >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like saying should you >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like saying should you have a cell phone number when phones have a cell phone number when phones have a cell phone number when phones came out. I'm like you don't exist if came out. I'm like you don't exist if came out. I'm like you don't exist if you're not on online for some people. you're not on online for some people. you're not on online for some people. >> But we need to be very wise about how we >> But we need to be very wise about how we >> But we need to be very wise about how we speak about you know the life of a speak about you know the life of a speak about you know the life of a community when we're online when we're community when we're online when we're community when we're online when we're engaging with people. We have so many engaging with people. We have so many engaging with people. We have so many people in our community that this Sunday people in our community that this Sunday people in our community that this Sunday I met somebody for the first time I met somebody for the first time I met somebody for the first time visited our church. They've been just visited our church. They've been just visited our church. They've been just watching us online for a few months watching us online for a few months watching us online for a few months >> because they're nervous. They're not >> because they're nervous. They're not >> because they're nervous. They're not sure. So there is a gift of take your sure. So there is a gift of take your sure. So there is a gift of take your time. There's no pressure. We're happy time. There's no pressure. We're happy time. There's no pressure. We're happy you're exploring faith on the internet you're exploring faith on the internet you're exploring faith on the internet with us, right? But I will find ways with us, right? But I will find ways with us, right? But I will find ways maybe God ways to say, "Hey, if you're maybe God ways to say, "Hey, if you're maybe God ways to say, "Hey, if you're watching online, we have a seat for you watching online, we have a seat for you watching online, we have a seat for you here." here." here." >> Yeah. Hey, if you're watching online >> Yeah. Hey, if you're watching online >> Yeah. Hey, if you're watching online today, we're celebrating communion and today, we're celebrating communion and today, we're celebrating communion and that's something that's meant to be that's something that's meant to be that's something that's meant to be celebrated together with other people, celebrated together with other people, celebrated together with other people, you know, and we'd love for you to maybe you know, and we'd love for you to maybe you know, and we'd love for you to maybe visit us sometime. You know, there visit us sometime. You know, there visit us sometime. You know, there there's bridge building in those there's bridge building in those there's bridge building in those conversations so people know, hey, I conversations so people know, hey, I conversations so people know, hey, I think the greatest expression of the think the greatest expression of the think the greatest expression of the story will only really be realized if I story will only really be realized if I story will only really be realized if I go and sit and worship and sing and am go and sit and worship and sing and am go and sit and worship and sing and am in the midst of God's people. The the in the midst of God's people. The the in the midst of God's people. The the simplest thing I tell people is imagine simplest thing I tell people is imagine simplest thing I tell people is imagine your friend invites you to their your friend invites you to their your friend invites you to their wedding.

wedding. wedding. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. They send you an invitation. >> Right. They send you an invitation. >> Right. They send you an invitation. Yeah, they're Yeah, they're Yeah, they're >> like, "I'm busy. Really? Lots going on, >> like, "I'm busy. Really? Lots going on, >> like, "I'm busy. Really? Lots going on, bro? Like, I can't come." And you ask bro? Like, I can't come." And you ask bro? Like, I can't come." And you ask them, "Is your wedding on Zoom?" them, "Is your wedding on Zoom?" them, "Is your wedding on Zoom?" >> They'd be like, "What?" >> They'd be like, "What?" >> They'd be like, "What?" >> During co for 10 minutes of >> During co for 10 minutes of >> During co for 10 minutes of >> 100%. Right. But after that, nobody even >> 100%. Right. But after that, nobody even >> 100%. Right. But after that, nobody even asks that. Why? Because there's some asks that. Why? Because there's some asks that. Why? Because there's some sacred loving thing that is about to sacred loving thing that is about to sacred loving thing that is about to happen. And you should be there to see happen. And you should be there to see happen. And you should be there to see it and be present and be part of the it and be present and be part of the it and be present and be part of the singing and the yelling and the eating. singing and the yelling and the eating. singing and the yelling and the eating. Right? There is something. I use that Right? There is something. I use that Right? There is something. I use that phrase as a simple thing to be like, phrase as a simple thing to be like, phrase as a simple thing to be like, "That would be so awkward if you asked "That would be so awkward if you asked "That would be so awkward if you asked your friend, can we just watch on Zoom?" your friend, can we just watch on Zoom?" your friend, can we just watch on Zoom?" Now, some weddings are done that way. Now, some weddings are done that way. Now, some weddings are done that way. People really live far away and they're People really live far away and they're People really live far away and they're going to miss. But it's not the way it's going to miss. But it's not the way it's going to miss. But it's not the way it's done. done. done. >> Yeah, that's not your primary >> Yeah, that's not your primary >> Yeah, that's not your primary celebration. celebration. celebration. >> And nobody would expect that. They'd be >> And nobody would expect that. They'd be >> And nobody would expect that. They'd be like, "That's so weird. Like, I'm not like, "That's so weird. Like, I'm not like, "That's so weird. Like, I'm not doing a wedding. We're just going to do doing a wedding. We're just going to do doing a wedding. We're just going to do something on Zoom." They'd be like, something on Zoom." They'd be like, something on Zoom." They'd be like, "Really? "Really? "Really? >> You're not going to gather? Forget about >> You're not going to gather? Forget about >> You're not going to gather? Forget about whether you're going to be in a church. whether you're going to be in a church. whether you're going to be in a church. You're not going to party." So, I asked You're not going to party." So, I asked You're not going to party." So, I asked people to think about that a little bit people to think about that a little bit people to think about that a little bit in light of of church as well. That that in light of of church as well. That that in light of of church as well. That that there's something really sacred that there's something really sacred that there's something really sacred that happens there. And so these these tools happens there. And so these these tools happens there. And so these these tools and and the AI revolution that we're and and the AI revolution that we're and and the AI revolution that we're experiencing now, experiencing now, experiencing now, you know, it's been it's God's God's you know, it's been it's God's God's you know, it's been it's God's God's sovereign, you know, plan that we would sovereign, you know, plan that we would sovereign, you know, plan that we would be the first ones to see it. You know, I be the first ones to see it. You know, I be the first ones to see it. You know, I think in 50 years from now, we'll have think in 50 years from now, we'll have think in 50 years from now, we'll have corrected some of these things, but corrected some of these things, but corrected some of these things, but we're really on the front we're really on the front we're really on the front >> edge of of like podcasting, online >> edge of of like podcasting, online >> edge of of like podcasting, online tools, AI, and we're like, well, this is tools, AI, and we're like, well, this is tools, AI, and we're like, well, this is coming fast.

coming fast. coming fast. >> It is coming fast. >> It is coming fast. >> It is coming fast. >> And so wisdom is is more essential than >> And so wisdom is is more essential than >> And so wisdom is is more essential than it's ever been. I want to go back to it's ever been. I want to go back to it's ever been. I want to go back to your context because I think it's going your context because I think it's going your context because I think it's going to help a lot of people. What's it like to help a lot of people. What's it like to help a lot of people. What's it like to do evangelism to do evangelism to do evangelism >> when nobody is asking you to explain the >> when nobody is asking you to explain the >> when nobody is asking you to explain the gospel? Yeah. Like nobody if you just gospel? Yeah. Like nobody if you just gospel? Yeah. Like nobody if you just sat there waiting for people to come and sat there waiting for people to come and sat there waiting for people to come and ask you spiritual questions, you're ask you spiritual questions, you're ask you spiritual questions, you're probably going to wait for it. probably going to wait for it. probably going to wait for it. >> Yeah. 100%. 100%. >> Yeah. 100%. 100%. >> Yeah. 100%. 100%. >> Well, the encouraging thing is that >> Well, the encouraging thing is that >> Well, the encouraging thing is that Jesus said go. Jesus said go. Jesus said go. >> So the great thing is he's like prepared >> So the great thing is he's like prepared >> So the great thing is he's like prepared us to be like nobody's coming to you. us to be like nobody's coming to you. us to be like nobody's coming to you. You got to go to them. You got to go to them. You got to go to them. >> Yeah. Nobody's coming to you. >> Yeah. Nobody's coming to you. >> Yeah. Nobody's coming to you. >> Nobody's coming to you. I'm sending you. >> Nobody's coming to you. I'm sending you. >> Nobody's coming to you. I'm sending you. You're going to have to go. I'm like, You're going to have to go. I'm like, You're going to have to go. I'm like, "You're sending us. Can't we just wait "You're sending us. Can't we just wait "You're sending us. Can't we just wait here till they come?" Nope. here till they come?" Nope. here till they come?" Nope. >> In general, there's going to be seasons >> In general, there's going to be seasons >> In general, there's going to be seasons where where where >> they're actually never going to come >> they're actually never going to come >> they're actually never going to come this way. Right now, the church in some this way. Right now, the church in some this way. Right now, the church in some parts of of North America has parts of of North America has parts of of North America has experienced blessing where people have experienced blessing where people have experienced blessing where people have come, you know, and some people come and come, you know, and some people come and come, you know, and some people come and if they're not rooted in the right way, if they're not rooted in the right way, if they're not rooted in the right way, they never come back. So, they can come they never come back. So, they can come they never come back. So, they can come and never stay. and never stay. and never stay. >> I would say that evangelism for us is >> I would say that evangelism for us is >> I would say that evangelism for us is really something that I think is is a really something that I think is is a really something that I think is is a shift that every uh Christian in the shift that every uh Christian in the shift that every uh Christian in the future will have to wrestle with. And future will have to wrestle with. And future will have to wrestle with. And that's that we are living in a world of that's that we are living in a world of that's that we are living in a world of terms we do not set. M terms we do not set. M terms we do not set. M >> you know this is a great myiologist who >> you know this is a great myiologist who >> you know this is a great myiologist who said this like that you know a shifting said this like that you know a shifting said this like that you know a shifting culture is a culture where Christians culture is a culture where Christians culture is a culture where Christians have had to live on terms set by others have had to live on terms set by others have had to live on terms set by others and if we're not careful we can and if we're not careful we can and if we're not careful we can interpret that as being persecuted or interpret that as being persecuted or interpret that as being persecuted or being like how are we not in charge like being like how are we not in charge like being like how are we not in charge like why does the government get to set the why does the government get to set the why does the government get to set the well Christians for thousands of years well Christians for thousands of years well Christians for thousands of years have lived in settings where they had to have lived in settings where they had to have lived in settings where they had to learn that they weren't the dominant learn that they weren't the dominant learn that they weren't the dominant voice they were I mean the book of voice they were I mean the book of voice they were I mean the book of Esther Daniel I mean we have wonderful Esther Daniel I mean we have wonderful Esther Daniel I mean we have wonderful stories in scripture to help us with stories in scripture to help us with stories in scripture to help us with this right so evangelism has to happen this right so evangelism has to happen this right so evangelism has to happen through deeper uh intentional

through deeper uh intentional through deeper uh intentional relationship ships pockets in our relationship ships pockets in our relationship ships pockets in our communities where we're welcome but communities where we're welcome but communities where we're welcome but we're not in charge. We're allowed to we're not in charge. We're allowed to we're not in charge. We're allowed to sit at the table but we don't get to sit at the table but we don't get to sit at the table but we don't get to decide the agenda, you know. So there's decide the agenda, you know. So there's decide the agenda, you know. So there's we look for ways of saying God if you we look for ways of saying God if you we look for ways of saying God if you open a door with a neighbor with an open a door with a neighbor with an open a door with a neighbor with an event in the city uh you know we'd like event in the city uh you know we'd like event in the city uh you know we'd like to walk into that and just be present to walk into that and just be present to walk into that and just be present and remind people hey there is a new and remind people hey there is a new and remind people hey there is a new church in your area if you have church in your area if you have church in your area if you have questions about God or spirituality. And questions about God or spirituality. And questions about God or spirituality. And you know the shocking thing Carrie you know the shocking thing Carrie you know the shocking thing Carrie people are open to all that. So that people are open to all that. So that people are open to all that. So that would be like an opening line. Hey there would be like an opening line. Hey there would be like an opening line. Hey there is a new church in your area if you have is a new church in your area if you have is a new church in your area if you have questions we're here. And then what questions we're here. And then what questions we're here. And then what happens next? happens next? happens next? >> Then people sometimes show up or people >> Then people sometimes show up or people >> Then people sometimes show up or people tell a friend or people go online tell a friend or people go online tell a friend or people go online because the internet is the way to go, because the internet is the way to go, because the internet is the way to go, right? Most people will check us out right? Most people will check us out right? Most people will check us out online and we're like, hey, you can take online and we're like, hey, you can take online and we're like, hey, you can take a look at things before you ever come, a look at things before you ever come, a look at things before you ever come, you know, so if you're nervous about you know, so if you're nervous about you know, so if you're nervous about church, they do and then they realize, church, they do and then they realize, church, they do and then they realize, oh, but there's something for kids here. oh, but there's something for kids here. oh, but there's something for kids here. I'm like, yeah, well, you have kids or I'm like, yeah, well, you have kids or I'm like, yeah, well, you have kids or there's something for, you know, there's something for, you know, there's something for, you know, children who are learning about, you children who are learning about, you children who are learning about, you know, faith in school about all know, faith in school about all know, faith in school about all religions. Well, I know I used to be a religions. Well, I know I used to be a religions. Well, I know I used to be a Christian or my family used to believe Christian or my family used to believe Christian or my family used to believe in God, but I don't know how to tell my in God, but I don't know how to tell my in God, but I don't know how to tell my kids about that. Well, we can maybe help kids about that. Well, we can maybe help kids about that. Well, we can maybe help you with that. M you with that. M you with that. M >> so there's all these kind of important >> so there's all these kind of important >> so there's all these kind of important things we're learning about being in the things we're learning about being in the things we're learning about being in the community. I mean I think Keller Tim community. I mean I think Keller Tim community. I mean I think Keller Tim Keller was a wonderful talk it's it's Keller was a wonderful talk it's it's Keller was a wonderful talk it's it's kind of like a cultural apologetic kind of like a cultural apologetic kind of like a cultural apologetic posture.

posture. posture. >> Uh one story that I use that you know is >> Uh one story that I use that you know is >> Uh one story that I use that you know is helpful for people is that when we first helpful for people is that when we first helpful for people is that when we first started the church started the church started the church >> people who've been Christians for a long >> people who've been Christians for a long >> people who've been Christians for a long time who started a visit they wondered time who started a visit they wondered time who started a visit they wondered about whether we were going to run VBS. about whether we were going to run VBS. about whether we were going to run VBS. listeners know that like VBS tends to be listeners know that like VBS tends to be listeners know that like VBS tends to be a summer wonderful kids kids program a summer wonderful kids kids program a summer wonderful kids kids program that they can you know invite all their that they can you know invite all their that they can you know invite all their friends and come to this right and I friends and come to this right and I friends and come to this right and I thought we're small church we don't have thought we're small church we don't have thought we're small church we don't have the money we don't have the resources the money we don't have the resources the money we don't have the resources and if we do VBS are we doing it just and if we do VBS are we doing it just and if we do VBS are we doing it just for our kids like we don't know enough for our kids like we don't know enough for our kids like we don't know enough people in the community that would trust people in the community that would trust people in the community that would trust us enough to send their kids in my head us enough to send their kids in my head us enough to send their kids in my head I'm like we can't do this like it's too I'm like we can't do this like it's too I'm like we can't do this like it's too much work right now but then as I'm much work right now but then as I'm much work right now but then as I'm walking the community I'm praying I'm at walking the community I'm praying I'm at walking the community I'm praying I'm at the mall I'm you know walking around I the mall I'm you know walking around I the mall I'm you know walking around I realize the city that we live in runs realize the city that we live in runs realize the city that we live in runs these massive family events every these massive family events every these massive family events every summer, summer, summer, >> park events, blowups, like they're like >> park events, blowups, like they're like >> park events, blowups, like they're like trying to get families to be in a trying to get families to be in a trying to get families to be in a community more. And I'm like, wait a community more. And I'm like, wait a community more. And I'm like, wait a second, why wouldn't we find a way to go second, why wouldn't we find a way to go second, why wouldn't we find a way to go to that event rather than run our own to that event rather than run our own to that event rather than run our own event? event? event? >> Like, I wonder if the city would ever >> Like, I wonder if the city would ever >> Like, I wonder if the city would ever let us just have a table at one of these let us just have a table at one of these let us just have a table at one of these big events that they pay for, they run.

big events that they pay for, they run. big events that they pay for, they run. They are way better organized than we They are way better organized than we They are way better organized than we are. They have all the resources. They are. They have all the resources. They are. They have all the resources. They got the all the blowups. like I I just got the all the blowups. like I I just got the all the blowups. like I I just prayed and I'm like, "God, I mean, I'm prayed and I'm like, "God, I mean, I'm prayed and I'm like, "God, I mean, I'm going to send a note to the organizers going to send a note to the organizers going to send a note to the organizers and see if, you know, there's a and see if, you know, there's a and see if, you know, there's a connection there." And so I sent a note connection there." And so I sent a note connection there." And so I sent a note and I said, "Hey, we're just a new and I said, "Hey, we're just a new and I said, "Hey, we're just a new community in the area. We love families. community in the area. We love families. community in the area. We love families. We're encouraging them. We, you know, we We're encouraging them. We, you know, we We're encouraging them. We, you know, we talk about faith issues and things that talk about faith issues and things that talk about faith issues and things that matter to families with their kids, matter to families with their kids, matter to families with their kids, right?" And they were they were like, right?" And they were they were like, right?" And they were they were like, "You can't do evangelism. Like, you "You can't do evangelism. Like, you "You can't do evangelism. Like, you can't be handing out cards. You can't can't be handing out cards. You can't can't be handing out cards. You can't Well, no problem, right? And uh here's Well, no problem, right? And uh here's Well, no problem, right? And uh here's the crazy thing. the crazy thing. the crazy thing. >> They say, "You can come to this event." >> They say, "You can come to this event." >> They say, "You can come to this event." >> They give us a table along other tables >> They give us a table along other tables >> They give us a table along other tables of other people. And the person says to of other people. And the person says to of other people. And the person says to me, "We've never had a church. I want to me, "We've never had a church. I want to me, "We've never had a church. I want to come to one of these events. come to one of these events. come to one of these events. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I'm like, okay, we'll come. But >> And I'm like, okay, we'll come. But >> And I'm like, okay, we'll come. But what's even more fascinating, and I hope what's even more fascinating, and I hope what's even more fascinating, and I hope the listeners pick this up, that these the listeners pick this up, that these the listeners pick this up, that these events, every person who gets a table events, every person who gets a table events, every person who gets a table pays a fee for the table and the pays a fee for the table and the pays a fee for the table and the proceeds go to help another charity in proceeds go to help another charity in proceeds go to help another charity in the community that is cancer research, the community that is cancer research, the community that is cancer research, uh, you know, whatever type of charity uh, you know, whatever type of charity uh, you know, whatever type of charity like Boys and Girls Club for after like Boys and Girls Club for after like Boys and Girls Club for after school programs, right? So, a secular school programs, right? So, a secular school programs, right? So, a secular culture is out charitying us. They're culture is out charitying us. They're culture is out charitying us. They're out community building us. They're out community building us. They're out community building us. They're connecting with families. and we're here connecting with families. and we're here connecting with families. and we're here trying to do what we've always done trying to do what we've always done trying to do what we've always done while there's all these new things that while there's all these new things that while there's all these new things that they're doing that we should find a way they're doing that we should find a way they're doing that we should find a way to kind of be among them and learn with to kind of be among them and learn with to kind of be among them and learn with them. Now, why is that going to be hard?

them. Now, why is that going to be hard? them. Now, why is that going to be hard? Because in those settings, we're not in Because in those settings, we're not in Because in those settings, we're not in charge. charge. charge. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like they can do some weird things. Like >> Like they can do some weird things. Like >> Like they can do some weird things. Like there's a band playing and they're there's a band playing and they're there's a band playing and they're playing some songs that I'm like, I playing some songs that I'm like, I playing some songs that I'm like, I don't really like, but we're here now don't really like, but we're here now don't really like, but we're here now and there's a church present and almost and there's a church present and almost and there's a church present and almost everybody who comes by our table, kids everybody who comes by our table, kids everybody who comes by our table, kids face painting, treats for the dog, all face painting, treats for the dog, all face painting, treats for the dog, all that stuff. They're like, there's a that stuff. They're like, there's a that stuff. They're like, there's a church in this community. Like, where is church in this community. Like, where is church in this community. Like, where is this? So you can't do evangelism. How this? So you can't do evangelism. How this? So you can't do evangelism. How does that work? does that work? does that work? >> Our presence is evangelism. >> Our presence is evangelism. >> Our presence is evangelism. >> Ah, >> Ah, >> Ah, >> our presence is a witness. Our presence >> our presence is a witness. Our presence >> our presence is a witness. Our presence and what's great about those types of and what's great about those types of and what's great about those types of events is I think that people that I events is I think that people that I events is I think that people that I care about that wouldn't come to church, care about that wouldn't come to church, care about that wouldn't come to church, I can invite them to that event. I can invite them to that event. I can invite them to that event. >> Like are you coming to the big city >> Like are you coming to the big city >> Like are you coming to the big city event that they're doing? They're like, event that they're doing? They're like, event that they're doing? They're like, "Oh yeah." I'm like, "Well, we're going "Oh yeah." I'm like, "Well, we're going "Oh yeah." I'm like, "Well, we're going to be there." Some people from our to be there." Some people from our to be there." Some people from our church are there. They're like, "And church are there. They're like, "And church are there. They're like, "And here's the beautiful thing. It gives you here's the beautiful thing. It gives you here's the beautiful thing. It gives you a certain credibility." a certain credibility." a certain credibility." >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> It gives you credibility like so that >> It gives you credibility like so that >> It gives you credibility like so that you're there. So you guys are probably you're there. So you guys are probably you're there. So you guys are probably like part of this community and legit. like part of this community and legit. like part of this community and legit. like you're legit, right? We're like, like you're legit, right? We're like, like you're legit, right? We're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really are." Like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really are." Like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really are." Like, we do what we say we're going to do. We we do what we say we're going to do. We we do what we say we're going to do. We really love families. We really care really love families. We really care really love families. We really care about the community. And the city knows about the community. And the city knows about the community. And the city knows that and they're letting us be part of that and they're letting us be part of that and they're letting us be part of this. When you've seen the turning this. When you've seen the turning this. When you've seen the turning point, cuz obviously your church has point, cuz obviously your church has point, cuz obviously your church has grown, you've reached people, some of grown, you've reached people, some of grown, you've reached people, some of that is transfer, but a lot of that is that is transfer, but a lot of that is that is transfer, but a lot of that is conversion growth.

conversion growth. conversion growth. >> Oh, yeah. Some newer people now. >> Oh, yeah. Some newer people now. >> Oh, yeah. Some newer people now. >> When you see conversion growth, what are >> When you see conversion growth, what are >> When you see conversion growth, what are some of the common connectors where some of the common connectors where some of the common connectors where someone goes, I get it. someone goes, I get it. someone goes, I get it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, one of the big connectors is You know, one of the big connectors is You know, one of the big connectors is just a space where they came early on to just a space where they came early on to just a space where they came early on to the church with so many doubts and they the church with so many doubts and they the church with so many doubts and they thought, I didn't know this was the thought, I didn't know this was the thought, I didn't know this was the church could be a safe place for me to church could be a safe place for me to church could be a safe place for me to share that. share that. share that. >> So, a massive connector is people who >> So, a massive connector is people who >> So, a massive connector is people who feel it was safe enough or feel that feel it was safe enough or feel that feel it was safe enough or feel that they, you know, are not sure they they, you know, are not sure they they, you know, are not sure they believe the Bible's the word of God yet. believe the Bible's the word of God yet. believe the Bible's the word of God yet. They're not sure. And we say, "Hey, we'd They're not sure. And we say, "Hey, we'd They're not sure. And we say, "Hey, we'd love to see you again next week." love to see you again next week." love to see you again next week." >> Where for some of them, they're like, >> Where for some of them, they're like, >> Where for some of them, they're like, "Hey, when I believe those things, then "Hey, when I believe those things, then "Hey, when I believe those things, then I should go to church." I should go to church." I should go to church." >> We're like, "No, no, no. You just come." >> We're like, "No, no, no. You just come." >> We're like, "No, no, no. You just come." Cuz we worked those things out together. Cuz we worked those things out together. Cuz we worked those things out together. >> Mhm. So they keep coming back. Another >> Mhm. So they keep coming back. Another >> Mhm. So they keep coming back. Another thing we do is we encourage people even thing we do is we encourage people even thing we do is we encourage people even if they're not like a 100% bought into if they're not like a 100% bought into if they're not like a 100% bought into the story of Jesus to gently be involved the story of Jesus to gently be involved the story of Jesus to gently be involved in little things around the church with in little things around the church with in little things around the church with us like you can help on our coffee team us like you can help on our coffee team us like you can help on our coffee team >> or we have this home group like early on >> or we have this home group like early on >> or we have this home group like early on when we started the church we had so few when we started the church we had so few when we started the church we had so few families that there was somebody who I families that there was somebody who I families that there was somebody who I was praying with and meeting for coffee was praying with and meeting for coffee was praying with and meeting for coffee and they were not there like they were and they were not there like they were and they were not there like they were not sure they believed in Jesus the not sure they believed in Jesus the not sure they believed in Jesus the Bible nothing and they said to me Bible nothing and they said to me Bible nothing and they said to me >> you know there's these home things that >> you know there's these home things that >> you know there's these home things that you do at the church like we were doing you do at the church like we were doing you do at the church like we were doing these we call them home groups or small these we call them home groups or small these we call them home groups or small groups right and I said yeah and he's groups right and I said yeah and he's groups right and I said yeah and he's like okay so what is that? I'm like, like okay so what is that? I'm like, like okay so what is that? I'm like, it's a great question. You know, if you it's a great question. You know, if you it's a great question. You know, if you have a church, why are you in people's have a church, why are you in people's have a church, why are you in people's homes? Kind of seems weird. So, you homes? Kind of seems weird. So, you homes? Kind of seems weird. So, you know, we often say, well, church on know, we often say, well, church on know, we often say, well, church on Sunday, there's an overflow of that love Sunday, there's an overflow of that love Sunday, there's an overflow of that love and that expression that, you know, we and that expression that, you know, we and that expression that, you know, we want to keep gathering together to learn want to keep gathering together to learn want to keep gathering together to learn about each other, right? And so, I say about each other, right? And so, I say about each other, right? And so, I say to this person, would you ever let us do to this person, would you ever let us do to this person, would you ever let us do like a home group in your home?

like a home group in your home? like a home group in your home? >> And they're like, really? But I I don't >> And they're like, really? But I I don't >> And they're like, really? But I I don't know if I believe any of this. I said, know if I believe any of this. I said, know if I believe any of this. I said, it's fine. I'll lead the group. You just it's fine. I'll lead the group. You just it's fine. I'll lead the group. You just open up your home. And they're like, open up your home. And they're like, open up your home. And they're like, really? Like almost like you can do really? Like almost like you can do really? Like almost like you can do that? Like, do you call the Pope for that? Like, do you call the Pope for that? Like, do you call the Pope for that? you know, whatever. There's always that? you know, whatever. There's always that? you know, whatever. There's always like I'm like, "Sure." like I'm like, "Sure." like I'm like, "Sure." >> So, I remember how special it was for >> So, I remember how special it was for >> So, I remember how special it was for this person who opened up their home this person who opened up their home this person who opened up their home >> had people who were mostly Christians in >> had people who were mostly Christians in >> had people who were mostly Christians in their group, right? Hear Christians their group, right? Hear Christians their group, right? Hear Christians dialogue about what they're struggling dialogue about what they're struggling dialogue about what they're struggling with, praying for, wondering about the with, praying for, wondering about the with, praying for, wondering about the Bible, and they're like, "They're like Bible, and they're like, "They're like Bible, and they're like, "They're like me." I'm like, "Of course they're like me." I'm like, "Of course they're like me." I'm like, "Of course they're like you." you." you." >> That's, you know, and out of those >> That's, you know, and out of those >> That's, you know, and out of those moments that are messy, tricky, you moments that are messy, tricky, you moments that are messy, tricky, you know, you're kind of like, "I'm waiting know, you're kind of like, "I'm waiting know, you're kind of like, "I'm waiting till you get all the ducks in a row till you get all the ducks in a row till you get all the ducks in a row before we, you know, we get too close to before we, you know, we get too close to before we, you know, we get too close to you." out of all those sacred moments, you." out of all those sacred moments, you." out of all those sacred moments, it's a value that you teach your people. it's a value that you teach your people. it's a value that you teach your people. You're teaching your people how to talk You're teaching your people how to talk You're teaching your people how to talk to people who don't believe in what you to people who don't believe in what you to people who don't believe in what you believe in. believe in. believe in. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're right. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're right. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're right. >> How to listen. You know, years would go >> How to listen. You know, years would go >> How to listen. You know, years would go by. I mean, this is a beautiful story. by. I mean, this is a beautiful story. by. I mean, this is a beautiful story. And I baptized that person a few years And I baptized that person a few years And I baptized that person a few years later, right? But it was a long runway. later, right? But it was a long runway. later, right? But it was a long runway. >> Yeah. It was a long runway of trust. >> Yeah. It was a long runway of trust. >> Yeah. It was a long runway of trust. >> And there because of their suspicion, >> And there because of their suspicion, >> And there because of their suspicion, which they should have, they're which they should have, they're which they should have, they're wondering like, "What is this crazy wondering like, "What is this crazy wondering like, "What is this crazy cult?"

cult?" cult?" >> Yeah. People in homes, Bible, like what >> Yeah. People in homes, Bible, like what >> Yeah. People in homes, Bible, like what are you guys talking about? Like we we are you guys talking about? Like we we are you guys talking about? Like we we did a Google search and we know what did a Google search and we know what did a Google search and we know what churches are like. I'm like, it's true. churches are like. I'm like, it's true. churches are like. I'm like, it's true. Some are. So, you know what? Don't take Some are. So, you know what? Don't take Some are. So, you know what? Don't take my word for it. Come check us out. my word for it. Come check us out. my word for it. Come check us out. >> What else do church leaders need to know >> What else do church leaders need to know >> What else do church leaders need to know about the Bible in a secular age, a about the Bible in a secular age, a about the Bible in a secular age, a shifting secular age? What are we shifting secular age? What are we shifting secular age? What are we missing? missing? missing? >> You know, one of the things I try to do >> You know, one of the things I try to do >> You know, one of the things I try to do in my book, Carrie, is I try to one help in my book, Carrie, is I try to one help in my book, Carrie, is I try to one help people wrestle with the fact that we've people wrestle with the fact that we've people wrestle with the fact that we've gotten secular wrong. Number one. Right. gotten secular wrong. Number one. Right. gotten secular wrong. Number one. Right. So the first part of the book is just So the first part of the book is just So the first part of the book is just saying the old secular story that I saying the old secular story that I saying the old secular story that I think we were preparing for is not think we were preparing for is not think we were preparing for is not really materializing the way we thought. really materializing the way we thought. really materializing the way we thought. >> And so if you develop muscles just for >> And so if you develop muscles just for >> And so if you develop muscles just for that world, you're going to be like, that world, you're going to be like, that world, you're going to be like, "Wait a second. "Wait a second. "Wait a second. >> So combative. They're out to get me." >> So combative. They're out to get me." >> So combative. They're out to get me." >> Yeah. Only I mean there is pockets of >> Yeah. Only I mean there is pockets of >> Yeah. Only I mean there is pockets of that at times, but it's not as as that at times, but it's not as as that at times, but it's not as as prevalent as as we really thought it prevalent as as we really thought it prevalent as as we really thought it would be, right? Uh a phrase that maybe would be, right? Uh a phrase that maybe would be, right? Uh a phrase that maybe theological thinkers might understand is theological thinkers might understand is theological thinkers might understand is like while we were expecting atheism, like while we were expecting atheism, like while we were expecting atheism, what we really got isnosticism, right? what we really got isnosticism, right? what we really got isnosticism, right? And and that's I I I kind of developed And and that's I I I kind of developed And and that's I I I kind of developed that idea in the book a little bit. What that idea in the book a little bit. What that idea in the book a little bit. What isnosticism? You know, nnosticism is a isnosticism? You know, nnosticism is a isnosticism? You know, nnosticism is a movement like in the early story of movement like in the early story of movement like in the early story of Christianity that is a highly Christianity that is a highly Christianity that is a highly spiritually engaging story that hijacks spiritually engaging story that hijacks spiritually engaging story that hijacks Jesus a little bit like they love Jesus.

Jesus a little bit like they love Jesus. Jesus a little bit like they love Jesus. They love spirituality. They So they can They love spirituality. They So they can They love spirituality. They So they can mix that in there. And I think that's mix that in there. And I think that's mix that in there. And I think that's more reflective of what we see. people more reflective of what we see. people more reflective of what we see. people who can come one week and you know I I who can come one week and you know I I who can come one week and you know I I had somebody early on they had this pool had somebody early on they had this pool had somebody early on they had this pool party at their house and they were had a party at their house and they were had a party at their house and they were had a tarot card reading person there and they tarot card reading person there and they tarot card reading person there and they come to our and I'm like I'm like can I come to our and I'm like I'm like can I come to our and I'm like I'm like can I come to this pool party like what is come to this pool party like what is come to this pool party like what is happening what is this so so I think the happening what is this so so I think the happening what is this so so I think the in the book what I say is that if if the in the book what I say is that if if the in the book what I say is that if if the secular culture is changing that means secular culture is changing that means secular culture is changing that means how they people think about the Bible is how they people think about the Bible is how they people think about the Bible is changing changing changing >> oh yeah >> oh yeah >> oh yeah >> right >> right >> right >> and so what they're not doing people in >> and so what they're not doing people in >> and so what they're not doing people in a secular culture who are curious about a secular culture who are curious about a secular culture who are curious about spirituality who have deep questions spirituality who have deep questions spirituality who have deep questions about science the paranormal aliens are about science the paranormal aliens are about science the paranormal aliens are is there extra threat all these things is there extra threat all these things is there extra threat all these things right what they're not doing is they're right what they're not doing is they're right what they're not doing is they're not reading the Bible more or properly not reading the Bible more or properly not reading the Bible more or properly >> right so we need to build a bridge for >> right so we need to build a bridge for >> right so we need to build a bridge for them to say you know these deepest them to say you know these deepest them to say you know these deepest longings that you have the Bible longings that you have the Bible longings that you have the Bible addresses them addresses them addresses them >> and the Bible addresses them in such a >> and the Bible addresses them in such a >> and the Bible addresses them in such a way that the Bible honors the fact that way that the Bible honors the fact that way that the Bible honors the fact that you're human you're human you're human >> right that's why the Bible makes room >> right that's why the Bible makes room >> right that's why the Bible makes room for doubt for doubt for doubt >> that's why right because it's human to >> that's why right because it's human to >> that's why right because it's human to doubt where I think for so many people doubt where I think for so many people doubt where I think for so many people like the Bible is something you get to like the Bible is something you get to like the Bible is something you get to when you you You know, again, I I I use when you you You know, again, I I I use when you you You know, again, I I I use phrases like where you think the Bible phrases like where you think the Bible phrases like where you think the Bible is like a manual, you know, that you go is like a manual, you know, that you go is like a manual, you know, that you go to for life. Well, who reads a manual to for life. Well, who reads a manual to for life. Well, who reads a manual for anything? Nobody. I don't read a for anything? Nobody. I don't read a for anything? Nobody. I don't read a manual until it breaks. Until it breaks.

manual until it breaks. Until it breaks. manual until it breaks. Until it breaks. And yet, that's most people's idea is And yet, that's most people's idea is And yet, that's most people's idea is the Bible's this manual when my marriage the Bible's this manual when my marriage the Bible's this manual when my marriage is falling apart, like how do I fix it? is falling apart, like how do I fix it? is falling apart, like how do I fix it? I'm like, that's not what the Bible is, I'm like, that's not what the Bible is, I'm like, that's not what the Bible is, >> right? Or the Bible is a book that once >> right? Or the Bible is a book that once >> right? Or the Bible is a book that once you read it once and you know what it you read it once and you know what it you read it once and you know what it says, you don't have to read it again. says, you don't have to read it again. says, you don't have to read it again. >> Right? So, it's almost like a textbook >> Right? So, it's almost like a textbook >> Right? So, it's almost like a textbook of sorts. Like, you don't even have to of sorts. Like, you don't even have to of sorts. Like, you don't even have to go to class if you have the textbook, go to class if you have the textbook, go to class if you have the textbook, which is why they don't show up at which is why they don't show up at which is why they don't show up at church, church, church, >> right? What the Bible actually is is not >> right? What the Bible actually is is not >> right? What the Bible actually is is not a textbook, but it's more like a a textbook, but it's more like a a textbook, but it's more like a treasure that you keep coming back to treasure that you keep coming back to treasure that you keep coming back to and you see layers of meaning and layers and you see layers of meaning and layers and you see layers of meaning and layers of because every time you come back to of because every time you come back to of because every time you come back to it, the Bible hasn't changed, but you it, the Bible hasn't changed, but you it, the Bible hasn't changed, but you have, right? And so the Bible can have, right? And so the Bible can have, right? And so the Bible can continue to speak to that. And and and continue to speak to that. And and and continue to speak to that. And and and so what I I'm I'm trying to do in this so what I I'm I'm trying to do in this so what I I'm I'm trying to do in this book is to say, hey, let's pay attention book is to say, hey, let's pay attention book is to say, hey, let's pay attention that secular culture is shifting right that secular culture is shifting right that secular culture is shifting right before our eyes. And if we're believers before our eyes. And if we're believers before our eyes. And if we're believers who believe that the scriptures are the who believe that the scriptures are the who believe that the scriptures are the living words of a living God, they need living words of a living God, they need living words of a living God, they need to meet our secular culture in this to meet our secular culture in this to meet our secular culture in this moment now. And as they do that, my last moment now. And as they do that, my last moment now. And as they do that, my last kind of section of the book is actually kind of section of the book is actually kind of section of the book is actually introducing a leadership crisis. That introducing a leadership crisis. That introducing a leadership crisis. That there's a leadership crisis that I think there's a leadership crisis that I think there's a leadership crisis that I think in the life of the church and in the in the life of the church and in the in the life of the church and in the life of leadership, if God did a revival life of leadership, if God did a revival life of leadership, if God did a revival and brought us a thousand new people in and brought us a thousand new people in and brought us a thousand new people in our church, we'd be dead.

our church, we'd be dead. our church, we'd be dead. >> Oh, we wouldn't be ready. There's no way >> Oh, we wouldn't be ready. There's no way >> Oh, we wouldn't be ready. There's no way we'd be ready. So, anybody who's praying we'd be ready. So, anybody who's praying we'd be ready. So, anybody who's praying for revival should be just as for revival should be just as for revival should be just as aggressively preparing new leaders for aggressively preparing new leaders for aggressively preparing new leaders for the future. M the future. M the future. M >> you should not be someone preparing for >> you should not be someone preparing for >> you should not be someone preparing for revival and not at the same time revival and not at the same time revival and not at the same time thinking if God answers these prayers thinking if God answers these prayers thinking if God answers these prayers what will we do with all these people. what will we do with all these people. what will we do with all these people. >> So we're not ready for revival. >> So we're not ready for revival. >> So we're not ready for revival. >> There's no way we're ready for revival. >> There's no way we're ready for revival. >> There's no way we're ready for revival. God is gracious by not sending us God is gracious by not sending us God is gracious by not sending us revival when we pray for it sometimes. revival when we pray for it sometimes. revival when we pray for it sometimes. >> So what needs to happen? >> So what needs to happen? >> So what needs to happen? >> We need to get serious about the kind of >> We need to get serious about the kind of >> We need to get serious about the kind of fabric it takes to welcome hurting fabric it takes to welcome hurting fabric it takes to welcome hurting people. People who are ready to say yes people. People who are ready to say yes people. People who are ready to say yes to God. People who want to be, you know, to God. People who want to be, you know, to God. People who want to be, you know, saved and formed and transformed, right? saved and formed and transformed, right? saved and formed and transformed, right? And it's more than just I heard a talk And it's more than just I heard a talk And it's more than just I heard a talk at a conference, at a conference, at a conference, >> right? It's more than that. So, this >> right? It's more than that. So, this >> right? It's more than that. So, this goes back to everything we've been goes back to everything we've been goes back to everything we've been talking about for the last hour. talking about for the last hour. talking about for the last hour. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Better theological education, better >> Better theological education, better >> Better theological education, better theological training, better theological training, better theological training, better understanding of the Bible, better understanding of the Bible, better understanding of the Bible, better understanding of the culture, understanding of the culture, understanding of the culture, >> and just the sheer number >> and just the sheer number >> and just the sheer number >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> of people being prepared for ministry. >> of people being prepared for ministry. >> of people being prepared for ministry. >> What are you doing about that in your >> What are you doing about that in your >> What are you doing about that in your context? context? context? >> You know, the big thing that I'm doing >> You know, the big thing that I'm doing >> You know, the big thing that I'm doing now, you know, I'm working with some now, you know, I'm working with some now, you know, I'm working with some different theological schools where I different theological schools where I different theological schools where I teach and, you know, I'm listening to teach and, you know, I'm listening to teach and, you know, I'm listening to ways to maybe partner with them as a ways to maybe partner with them as a ways to maybe partner with them as a church. I think that's a model that's church. I think that's a model that's church. I think that's a model that's emerging. Um, one is I am committed to emerging. Um, one is I am committed to emerging. Um, one is I am committed to developing new leaders. You know, the developing new leaders. You know, the developing new leaders. You know, the catch phrase for the past 20 years has catch phrase for the past 20 years has catch phrase for the past 20 years has been mentoring, leadership, this and been mentoring, leadership, this and been mentoring, leadership, this and that. And I ask people, well, how many that. And I ask people, well, how many that. And I ask people, well, how many people you mentoring? Right? Everybody people you mentoring? Right? Everybody people you mentoring? Right? Everybody talks about mentoring until you ask them talks about mentoring until you ask them talks about mentoring until you ask them who they're mentoring. I'm like, tell me who they're mentoring. I'm like, tell me who they're mentoring. I'm like, tell me their names, their names, their names, >> right? You know why? Because it's so >> right? You know why? Because it's so >> right? You know why? Because it's so much easier to talk about mentoring than much easier to talk about mentoring than much easier to talk about mentoring than to actually add another thing to your to actually add another thing to your to actually add another thing to your busy schedule busy schedule busy schedule >> to mentor somebody.

>> to mentor somebody. >> to mentor somebody. >> Yeah. I tell my staff all the time, you >> Yeah. I tell my staff all the time, you >> Yeah. I tell my staff all the time, you know, I spoke about it even this week, know, I spoke about it even this week, know, I spoke about it even this week, like we whenever we have an apprentice like we whenever we have an apprentice like we whenever we have an apprentice at our church or a new a new person at our church or a new a new person at our church or a new a new person learning, it's a staff person who learning, it's a staff person who learning, it's a staff person who already has a full plate and I say to already has a full plate and I say to already has a full plate and I say to them, can we add like one more thing to them, can we add like one more thing to them, can we add like one more thing to that? And they're like, no. Right? So, that? And they're like, no. Right? So, that? And they're like, no. Right? So, watching a burnout culture that can watching a burnout culture that can watching a burnout culture that can emerge, you know? So, at our church, emerge, you know? So, at our church, emerge, you know? So, at our church, we're really trying to become, you know, we're really trying to become, you know, we're really trying to become, you know, there's a language of being a hub there's a language of being a hub there's a language of being a hub church, multiplying leaders, giving them church, multiplying leaders, giving them church, multiplying leaders, giving them room to serve, high accountability, room to serve, high accountability, room to serve, high accountability, uh reminding them that there are no uh reminding them that there are no uh reminding them that there are no shortcuts. You know, somebody said that shortcuts. You know, somebody said that shortcuts. You know, somebody said that to me recently. One of the things that to me recently. One of the things that to me recently. One of the things that they said seems to be a value of the they said seems to be a value of the they said seems to be a value of the 180. And I said, 'Well, tell me what you 180. And I said, 'Well, tell me what you 180. And I said, 'Well, tell me what you notice. Right? Because as a leader, you notice. Right? Because as a leader, you notice. Right? Because as a leader, you kind of don't see what's in your kind of don't see what's in your kind of don't see what's in your culture. And they said, "One of the culture. And they said, "One of the culture. And they said, "One of the values I notice at this church is you values I notice at this church is you values I notice at this church is you don't let people get away with easy don't let people get away with easy don't let people get away with easy answers." answers." answers." >> I'm like, "Bingo. That is our culture. >> I'm like, "Bingo. That is our culture. >> I'm like, "Bingo. That is our culture. If you give me an easy answer for why If you give me an easy answer for why If you give me an easy answer for why that person's not a Christian, it won't that person's not a Christian, it won't that person's not a Christian, it won't work here. I want to know, do you know work here. I want to know, do you know work here. I want to know, do you know them? What's their story?" like we're them? What's their story?" like we're them? What's their story?" like we're going to dig deeper cuz easy answers are going to dig deeper cuz easy answers are going to dig deeper cuz easy answers are something that a secular culture already something that a secular culture already something that a secular culture already thinks Christians are like it's it's thinks Christians are like it's it's thinks Christians are like it's it's their go-to thing and we're like that's their go-to thing and we're like that's their go-to thing and we're like that's not what we are not what we are not what we are >> when suffering happens we don't just >> when suffering happens we don't just >> when suffering happens we don't just have like five easy steps for why have like five easy steps for why have like five easy steps for why suffering isn't God's plan and he's suffering isn't God's plan and he's suffering isn't God's plan and he's sovereign and all that no tell me tell sovereign and all that no tell me tell sovereign and all that no tell me tell me how you're doing me how you're doing me how you're doing >> well I was honored to write the forward >> well I was honored to write the forward >> well I was honored to write the forward for your book if someone's wondering for your book if someone's wondering for your book if someone's wondering about picking it up what are they going about picking it up what are they going about picking it up what are they going to get out of it what what is your hope to get out of it what what is your hope to get out of it what what is your hope as church leaders interact with your as church leaders interact with your as church leaders interact with your book book book >> what do hope their takeaway is.

>> what do hope their takeaway is. >> what do hope their takeaway is. >> Okay. So, one thing I hope is that all >> Okay. So, one thing I hope is that all >> Okay. So, one thing I hope is that all people who read my book will feel a deep people who read my book will feel a deep people who read my book will feel a deep lowering of anxiety in how they engage lowering of anxiety in how they engage lowering of anxiety in how they engage with culture. with culture. with culture. >> You know, I think that the older secular >> You know, I think that the older secular >> You know, I think that the older secular paradigms were often, you know, at times paradigms were often, you know, at times paradigms were often, you know, at times aggressively causing a certain fear, aggressively causing a certain fear, aggressively causing a certain fear, anxiety, things are changing. Yeah. All anxiety, things are changing. Yeah. All anxiety, things are changing. Yeah. All everything is war all the time, you everything is war all the time, you everything is war all the time, you know. And I tell people all the time, if know. And I tell people all the time, if know. And I tell people all the time, if that's the only category we give to that's the only category we give to that's the only category we give to people, war culture has winners and people, war culture has winners and people, war culture has winners and losers. Gospel culture has people who losers. Gospel culture has people who losers. Gospel culture has people who are lost that can be found. are lost that can be found. are lost that can be found. >> It's a bit of a different thing. Now, >> It's a bit of a different thing. Now, >> It's a bit of a different thing. Now, I'm not saying there's not places in the I'm not saying there's not places in the I'm not saying there's not places in the world where Christianity is facing, world where Christianity is facing, world where Christianity is facing, right, very difficult things, right? But right, very difficult things, right? But right, very difficult things, right? But I think we're seeing something else I think we're seeing something else I think we're seeing something else here. And so, one thing is I hope here. And so, one thing is I hope here. And so, one thing is I hope leaders just feel like, hey, let's lower leaders just feel like, hey, let's lower leaders just feel like, hey, let's lower the anxiety and the fear. the anxiety and the fear. the anxiety and the fear. >> And when we lower that, you know what it >> And when we lower that, you know what it >> And when we lower that, you know what it means? We have more time to think about means? We have more time to think about means? We have more time to think about leadership development, leadership development, leadership development, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Because if we're just preparing for war, >> Because if we're just preparing for war, >> Because if we're just preparing for war, like we don't have time to develop like we don't have time to develop like we don't have time to develop leaders. Well, why are we developing leaders. Well, why are we developing leaders. Well, why are we developing leaders? The Lord's coming back leaders? The Lord's coming back leaders? The Lord's coming back tomorrow, you know? Well, what if God tomorrow, you know? Well, what if God tomorrow, you know? Well, what if God does a new thing? What if God starts to does a new thing? What if God starts to does a new thing? What if God starts to draw people back to his church? What if draw people back to his church? What if draw people back to his church? What if there's a revival that starts to emerge? there's a revival that starts to emerge? there's a revival that starts to emerge? Where will those people go?

Where will those people go? Where will those people go? >> Who will teach them the Bible? >> Who will teach them the Bible? >> Who will teach them the Bible? >> How will we make sure that they don't >> How will we make sure that they don't >> How will we make sure that they don't just come for like a season and then get just come for like a season and then get just come for like a season and then get lost again? lost again? lost again? >> You know, how do we anchor them? >> You know, how do we anchor them? >> You know, how do we anchor them? >> So, so my prayer is that leaders will >> So, so my prayer is that leaders will >> So, so my prayer is that leaders will will feel an excitement about saying, will feel an excitement about saying, will feel an excitement about saying, "Hey, the Bible's going to help us with "Hey, the Bible's going to help us with "Hey, the Bible's going to help us with this." And that, you know, in a basic this." And that, you know, in a basic this." And that, you know, in a basic way, I want people to read the Bible way, I want people to read the Bible way, I want people to read the Bible more consistently and better. more consistently and better. more consistently and better. >> Yeah. properly, you know, understand the >> Yeah. properly, you know, understand the >> Yeah. properly, you know, understand the Bible in a in a more proper way, which Bible in a in a more proper way, which Bible in a in a more proper way, which is a more robust reading of the is a more robust reading of the is a more robust reading of the scriptures. Um, and so my prayer is that scriptures. Um, and so my prayer is that scriptures. Um, and so my prayer is that if I can play a little part in that if I can play a little part in that if I can play a little part in that leadership formation, I'm just helping leadership formation, I'm just helping leadership formation, I'm just helping leaders in the church. leaders in the church. leaders in the church. >> Well, the book is called the Bible in a >> Well, the book is called the Bible in a >> Well, the book is called the Bible in a shifting or for shifting or for shifting or for a shifting secular age a shifting secular age a shifting secular age >> and it's available everywhere. >> and it's available everywhere. >> and it's available everywhere. >> Yeah, everywhere, >> Yeah, everywhere, >> Yeah, everywhere, >> I guess. So, people are going to want to >> I guess. So, people are going to want to >> I guess. So, people are going to want to connect with you with um the church and connect with you with um the church and connect with you with um the church and everything. Give us some websites or everything. Give us some websites or everything. Give us some websites or social media where we can find Yeah, social media where we can find Yeah, social media where we can find Yeah, domuso.com is my like cheesy website domuso.com is my like cheesy website domuso.com is my like cheesy website landing page, you know, just one little landing page, you know, just one little landing page, you know, just one little place there, you know, the 180.ca is our place there, you know, the 180.ca is our place there, you know, the 180.ca is our church website, you know, uh I think church website, you know, uh I think church website, you know, uh I think like you can find me on Instagram, you like you can find me on Instagram, you like you can find me on Instagram, you know, Facebook, all those good places, know, Facebook, all those good places, know, Facebook, all those good places, you know, people send a link if, you you know, people send a link if, you you know, people send a link if, you know, if I can serve leaders or pastors, know, if I can serve leaders or pastors, know, if I can serve leaders or pastors, sometimes boards who are preparing for a sometimes boards who are preparing for a sometimes boards who are preparing for a new season of evangelism, I sometimes do new season of evangelism, I sometimes do new season of evangelism, I sometimes do that to say, you know, your church that to say, you know, your church that to say, you know, your church doesn't seem like it's it's projected in doesn't seem like it's it's projected in doesn't seem like it's it's projected in in a way or prepared to really do good in a way or prepared to really do good in a way or prepared to really do good evangelism in secular culture. So I step evangelism in secular culture. So I step evangelism in secular culture. So I step in and try to encourage them to tweak in and try to encourage them to tweak in and try to encourage them to tweak things, think about how preaching should things, think about how preaching should things, think about how preaching should work differently maybe in a work differently maybe in a work differently maybe in a post-Christian culture.

post-Christian culture. post-Christian culture. >> And so uh yeah, look forward to hearing >> And so uh yeah, look forward to hearing >> And so uh yeah, look forward to hearing from people. And uh this is so great from people. And uh this is so great from people. And uh this is so great that we got to do this. Gary that we got to do this. Gary that we got to do this. Gary >> Dom, thank you. >> Dom, thank you. >> Dom, thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much, bud. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much, bud. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much, bud. Appreciate it.