What Destroys Leaders: Eric Geiger on Preaching to Your Own Sins and Disappointing Your Staff

There's been leaders who have fallen who There's been leaders who have fallen who I have been in prayer sessions with them I have been in prayer sessions with them I have been in prayer sessions with them or have been at a dinner table with them or have been at a dinner table with them or have been at a dinner table with them when they just graciously and I mean when they just graciously and I mean when they just graciously and I mean beautifully shared the gospel with a beautifully shared the gospel with a beautifully shared the gospel with a server or with a a friend who is at the server or with a a friend who is at the server or with a a friend who is at the table. And I have thought that that table. And I have thought that that table. And I have thought that that brother loves Jesus more than I love brother loves Jesus more than I love brother loves Jesus more than I love Jesus. That Jesus. That Jesus. That >> wow >> wow >> wow >> that man spends more time with God than >> that man spends more time with God than >> that man spends more time with God than I spend spend with God. And I've seen I spend spend with God. And I've seen I spend spend with God. And I've seen those people some of those people those people some of those people those people some of those people topple. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff topple. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff topple. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. So glad you joined Leadership Podcast. So glad you joined Leadership Podcast. So glad you joined us today. And we have got Eric Guyger us today. And we have got Eric Guyger us today. And we have got Eric Guyger back on the podcast. I love having back on the podcast. I love having back on the podcast. I love having repeat guests in part because it feels repeat guests in part because it feels repeat guests in part because it feels like a good friendship. You just get to like a good friendship. You just get to like a good friendship. You just get to know people better. You talk more know people better. You talk more know people better. You talk more vulnerably. And that's what Eric and I vulnerably. And that's what Eric and I vulnerably. And that's what Eric and I do. We have a pretty open, candid do. We have a pretty open, candid do. We have a pretty open, candid conversation about what topples leaders. conversation about what topples leaders. conversation about what topples leaders. Some of the situations we've both been Some of the situations we've both been Some of the situations we've both been in where we've seen moral failure in where we've seen moral failure in where we've seen moral failure firsthand. What does that mean? What do firsthand. What does that mean? What do firsthand. What does that mean? What do you look for inside you, inside me, you look for inside you, inside me, you look for inside you, inside me, inside Eric as we try to make sure this inside Eric as we try to make sure this inside Eric as we try to make sure this is not where we end up? Well, it's going is not where we end up? Well, it's going is not where we end up? Well, it's going to be a fascinating conversation. So, to be a fascinating conversation. So, to be a fascinating conversation. So, we're talking about that, why we preach we're talking about that, why we preach we're talking about that, why we preach to our own sins, disappointing your to our own sins, disappointing your to our own sins, disappointing your staff. As your staff grows, you can't be staff. As your staff grows, you can't be staff. As your staff grows, you can't be close with everybody anymore. How do you close with everybody anymore. How do you close with everybody anymore. How do you handle that? Plus, we talk a little bit handle that? Plus, we talk a little bit handle that? Plus, we talk a little bit about AI and truth and fiction. Eric about AI and truth and fiction. Eric about AI and truth and fiction. Eric serves as a senior pastor of Mariners's serves as a senior pastor of Mariners's serves as a senior pastor of Mariners's Church. He is a sought-after speaker. He Church. He is a sought-after speaker. He Church. He is a sought-after speaker. He has led in both marketplace and ministry has led in both marketplace and ministry has led in both marketplace and ministry settings as senior vice president and settings as senior vice president and settings as senior vice president and chief business officer for Lifeway chief business officer for Lifeway chief business officer for Lifeway Leadership Resources before joining the Leadership Resources before joining the Leadership Resources before joining the team as lead pastor at Mariners's

team as lead pastor at Mariners's team as lead pastor at Mariners's Church. And he's the author of numerous Church. And he's the author of numerous Church. And he's the author of numerous books, including his newest, Rooted, books, including his newest, Rooted, books, including his newest, Rooted, which we touch on briefly in this which we touch on briefly in this which we touch on briefly in this podcast. So, hope you enjoy this podcast. So, hope you enjoy this podcast. So, hope you enjoy this conversation. If you're new here, hit conversation. If you're new here, hit conversation. If you're new here, hit follow or subscribe. That's how you will follow or subscribe. That's how you will follow or subscribe. That's how you will make sure the algorithm serves up this make sure the algorithm serves up this make sure the algorithm serves up this show whenever we have a new guest and we show whenever we have a new guest and we show whenever we have a new guest and we do six episodes a month. So, we'd love do six episodes a month. So, we'd love do six episodes a month. So, we'd love to have you join us for that journey. In to have you join us for that journey. In to have you join us for that journey. In the meantime, my conversation with Eric the meantime, my conversation with Eric the meantime, my conversation with Eric Guyger. Well, Eric, I always enjoy my Guyger. Well, Eric, I always enjoy my Guyger. Well, Eric, I always enjoy my conversations with you. Welcome back, conversations with you. Welcome back, conversations with you. Welcome back, >> man. I'm honored, man. It's always I >> man. I'm honored, man. It's always I >> man. I'm honored, man. It's always I love hanging with you. So, thanks for love hanging with you. So, thanks for love hanging with you. So, thanks for having me on the podcast. having me on the podcast. having me on the podcast. >> What are you learning? What are you most >> What are you learning? What are you most >> What are you learning? What are you most curious about these days? Like what what curious about these days? Like what what curious about these days? Like what what is exciting you? What are you thinking is exciting you? What are you thinking is exciting you? What are you thinking about? like not just Sunday to Sunday, about? like not just Sunday to Sunday, about? like not just Sunday to Sunday, >> but do you have a current like curiosity >> but do you have a current like curiosity >> but do you have a current like curiosity or thing you're chasing down? or thing you're chasing down? or thing you're chasing down? >> Well, I'm I'm glad you mentioned the >> Well, I'm I'm glad you mentioned the >> Well, I'm I'm glad you mentioned the Sunday to Sunday because I mean, you Sunday to Sunday because I mean, you Sunday to Sunday because I mean, you know, that rhythm, the Sunday to Sunday know, that rhythm, the Sunday to Sunday know, that rhythm, the Sunday to Sunday rhythm so overwhelming. So, I'm often rhythm so overwhelming. So, I'm often rhythm so overwhelming. So, I'm often reading and thinking about sermons that reading and thinking about sermons that reading and thinking about sermons that I'm going to be preaching. I'm going to be preaching. I'm going to be preaching. >> Exactly. So, >> Exactly. So, >> Exactly. So, >> and so that was the idea. The question >> and so that was the idea. The question >> and so that was the idea. The question is when that isn't, you got Ed Stzer is when that isn't, you got Ed Stzer is when that isn't, you got Ed Stzer coming in or Christine Kane coming in or coming in or Christine Kane coming in or coming in or Christine Kane coming in or someone like that and you're in your someone like that and you're in your someone like that and you're in your spare time, what's preoccupying your spare time, what's preoccupying your spare time, what's preoccupying your mind these days?

mind these days? mind these days? >> I I'm I'm and I'm excited about what >> I I'm I'm and I'm excited about what >> I I'm I'm and I'm excited about what you're going to be sharing with some of you're going to be sharing with some of you're going to be sharing with some of us about AI. I'm really curious about us about AI. I'm really curious about us about AI. I'm really curious about Hey, and I'm doing some reading this Hey, and I'm doing some reading this Hey, and I'm doing some reading this summer on how AI is not only going to summer on how AI is not only going to summer on how AI is not only going to change work. I know lots of people are change work. I know lots of people are change work. I know lots of people are are talking about how it is going to are talking about how it is going to are talking about how it is going to eliminate some entry- level jobs and eliminate some entry- level jobs and eliminate some entry- level jobs and it'll create a whole bunch of other it'll create a whole bunch of other it'll create a whole bunch of other entry-level jobs, but I'm curious about entry-level jobs, but I'm curious about entry-level jobs, but I'm curious about how AI is um going to impact how the how AI is um going to impact how the how AI is um going to impact how the people we lead process information. people we lead process information. people we lead process information. >> Um how they how they think about truth, >> Um how they how they think about truth, >> Um how they how they think about truth, you know, that that to me is going to be you know, that that to me is going to be you know, that that to me is going to be a bigger challenge for those of us who a bigger challenge for those of us who a bigger challenge for those of us who who teach God's word. So, I'm I've been who teach God's word. So, I'm I've been who teach God's word. So, I'm I've been thinking a lot about that. Curious about thinking a lot about that. Curious about thinking a lot about that. Curious about that, reading some on that. Yeah, me that, reading some on that. Yeah, me that, reading some on that. Yeah, me too. I'm I'm curious. Have you like too. I'm I'm curious. Have you like too. I'm I'm curious. Have you like you're not in Silicon Valley, you're in you're not in Silicon Valley, you're in you're not in Silicon Valley, you're in Orange County. Uh but a lot of people Orange County. Uh but a lot of people Orange County. Uh but a lot of people would say, "Well, California's been would say, "Well, California's been would say, "Well, California's been playing with the truth for decades, playing with the truth for decades, playing with the truth for decades, right? If you want to play into right? If you want to play into right? If you want to play into stereotypes, right?" stereotypes, right?" stereotypes, right?" >> Have you noticed a shift like with deep >> Have you noticed a shift like with deep >> Have you noticed a shift like with deep fakes or just when you're taking the fakes or just when you're taking the fakes or just when you're taking the pulse of the congregation, pulse of the congregation, pulse of the congregation, >> have you noticed a a change in the >> have you noticed a a change in the >> have you noticed a a change in the weather when it comes to truth or an weather when it comes to truth or an weather when it comes to truth or an appetite for truth or knowledge or appetite for truth or knowledge or appetite for truth or knowledge or anything like that? Yeah, I haven't anything like that? Yeah, I haven't anything like that? Yeah, I haven't articulated this yet. So, it's the I I articulated this yet. So, it's the I I articulated this yet. So, it's the I I want the freedom to edit it, but here's want the freedom to edit it, but here's want the freedom to edit it, but here's uh here's kind of what I what I have I uh here's kind of what I what I have I uh here's kind of what I what I have I have noticed. There is more of a first have noticed. There is more of a first have noticed. There is more of a first assumption of hey, is that real?

assumption of hey, is that real? assumption of hey, is that real? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that that and I it makes sense. >> So, that that and I it makes sense. >> So, that that and I it makes sense. People have been been fooled on some People have been been fooled on some People have been been fooled on some clip they saw on social media and so the clip they saw on social media and so the clip they saw on social media and so the skepticism is I think even higher than skepticism is I think even higher than skepticism is I think even higher than it was. So that that for sure has it was. So that that for sure has it was. So that that for sure has implications for those of us who implications for those of us who implications for those of us who communicate God's word. It's also I communicate God's word. It's also I communicate God's word. It's also I think an advantage for those of us who think an advantage for those of us who think an advantage for those of us who have credibility rooted in our character have credibility rooted in our character have credibility rooted in our character and rooted in who and who we've been and rooted in who and who we've been and rooted in who and who we've been over a long haul, you know. So I so over a long haul, you know. So I so over a long haul, you know. So I so that's actually an opportunity um and an that's actually an opportunity um and an that's actually an opportunity um and an opportunity opportunity for for a church opportunity opportunity for for a church opportunity opportunity for for a church that's been faithful um and rooted in that's been faithful um and rooted in that's been faithful um and rooted in the scripture. I I think that's a great the scripture. I I think that's a great the scripture. I I think that's a great opportunity because there is a longing opportunity because there is a longing opportunity because there is a longing like how do I know what's true? Is that like how do I know what's true? Is that like how do I know what's true? Is that is that real? Is that real? The other is that real? Is that real? The other is that real? Is that real? The other thing that I've that I've noticed is thing that I've that I've noticed is thing that I've that I've noticed is just the difference from when someone just the difference from when someone just the difference from when someone used Google or any search engine verse used Google or any search engine verse used Google or any search engine verse they're using Chad or Claude. And I have they're using Chad or Claude. And I have they're using Chad or Claude. And I have seen a quick shift just friends I talked seen a quick shift just friends I talked seen a quick shift just friends I talked to who what they used to use Google for to who what they used to use Google for to who what they used to use Google for they don't use Google for now. They use they don't use Google for now. They use they don't use Google for now. They use they use AI now. They're not they use AI now. They're not they use AI now. They're not sophisticated you know they don't have sophisticated you know they don't have sophisticated you know they don't have they haven't deployed AI agents like they haven't deployed AI agents like they haven't deployed AI agents like they're just you know typing it in like they're just you know typing it in like they're just you know typing it in like it's a chat. But when you typed in a it's a chat. But when you typed in a it's a chat. But when you typed in a search on Google, you would get one of search on Google, you would get one of search on Google, you would get one of 68,000 results and you you knew that the 68,000 results and you you knew that the 68,000 results and you you knew that the first link you clicked on was a first link you clicked on was a first link you clicked on was a perspective.

perspective. perspective. >> Um, and then, you know, you could click >> Um, and then, you know, you could click >> Um, and then, you know, you could click on a second link and see a different on a second link and see a different on a second link and see a different perspective or a third and you could perspective or a third and you could perspective or a third and you could kind of then, you know, pull together kind of then, you know, pull together kind of then, you know, pull together your thoughts, but you realized you were your thoughts, but you realized you were your thoughts, but you realized you were looking at someone's perspective on this looking at someone's perspective on this looking at someone's perspective on this particular website. Now, I I do worry particular website. Now, I I do worry particular website. Now, I I do worry that people are assuming a higher level that people are assuming a higher level that people are assuming a higher level of authority to AI than they did to a a of authority to AI than they did to a a of authority to AI than they did to a a search engine search. So, they type in search engine search. So, they type in search engine search. So, they type in the same question to AI and then what the same question to AI and then what the same question to AI and then what comes back it's it's like true. It's comes back it's it's like true. It's comes back it's it's like true. It's viewed as true. And that that I'm I viewed as true. And that that I'm I viewed as true. And that that I'm I mean, we know that everything that comes mean, we know that everything that comes mean, we know that everything that comes back isn't isn't always true. You know, back isn't isn't always true. You know, back isn't isn't always true. You know, we know that. We've experienced it we know that. We've experienced it we know that. We've experienced it ourselves. And I'm not I'm not saying we ourselves. And I'm not I'm not saying we ourselves. And I'm not I'm not saying we shouldn't use AI. I'm just saying we shouldn't use AI. I'm just saying we shouldn't use AI. I'm just saying we know that not everything that we've know that not everything that we've know that not everything that we've received back is true. received back is true. received back is true. >> You know, that is I've noticed the same >> You know, that is I've noticed the same >> You know, that is I've noticed the same thing, too. And I agree with you because thing, too. And I agree with you because thing, too. And I agree with you because when we're used to the blue links, we when we're used to the blue links, we when we're used to the blue links, we just kind of scroll through a Google just kind of scroll through a Google just kind of scroll through a Google page. It's like, well, that's Car's page. It's like, well, that's Car's page. It's like, well, that's Car's perspective. That's Eric's perspective. perspective. That's Eric's perspective. perspective. That's Eric's perspective. That's Greg's perspective. That's Greg's perspective. That's Greg's perspective. >> Good, good, good. I feel brief now on >> Good, good, good. I feel brief now on >> Good, good, good. I feel brief now on this issue. But AI just gives you an this issue. But AI just gives you an this issue. But AI just gives you an overview. And the hallucinations are not overview. And the hallucinations are not overview. And the hallucinations are not gone. I do that church trends thing gone. I do that church trends thing gone. I do that church trends thing every year. And I had done most of my every year. And I had done most of my every year. And I had done most of my research. So I went and do I forget research. So I went and do I forget research. So I went and do I forget whether it was perplexity. I think it whether it was perplexity. I think it whether it was perplexity. I think it was perplexity which is built off of was perplexity which is built off of was perplexity which is built off of open AI. And I said I want you to go open AI. And I said I want you to go open AI. And I said I want you to go further. Be my research assistant. Go further. Be my research assistant. Go further. Be my research assistant. Go out find other trends I might not be out find other trends I might not be out find other trends I might not be aware of. I was talking to David aware of. I was talking to David aware of. I was talking to David Kinnaman from Bara about this over Kinnaman from Bara about this over Kinnaman from Bara about this over dinner the other day and it gave me this

dinner the other day and it gave me this dinner the other day and it gave me this really authoritative looking brief and really authoritative looking brief and really authoritative looking brief and I'm like Bara says this, Lifeway says I'm like Bara says this, Lifeway says I'm like Bara says this, Lifeway says this, you know, uh, Pew Research says this, you know, uh, Pew Research says this, you know, uh, Pew Research says this. I'm like, how did I miss this? this. I'm like, how did I miss this? this. I'm like, how did I miss this? Like, I think I'm in the know. I I Like, I think I'm in the know. I I Like, I think I'm in the know. I I didn't know any of this. So, I clicked didn't know any of this. So, I clicked didn't know any of this. So, I clicked on the link on the link on the link >> 404 not found. I'm like, okay, great. >> 404 not found. I'm like, okay, great. >> 404 not found. I'm like, okay, great. >> So, then I went and I loo did a subject >> So, then I went and I loo did a subject >> So, then I went and I loo did a subject search. Uh, I took the headline, typed search. Uh, I took the headline, typed search. Uh, I took the headline, typed it into a browser, nothing. Did that for it into a browser, nothing. Did that for it into a browser, nothing. Did that for all of the links and went pretty deep all of the links and went pretty deep all of the links and went pretty deep trying to find this. Like, if this data trying to find this. Like, if this data trying to find this. Like, if this data is out there, I want to report it. I is out there, I want to report it. I is out there, I want to report it. I want to figure it out. It was all fake. want to figure it out. It was all fake. want to figure it out. It was all fake. >> Wow, man. And but it looks so >> Wow, man. And but it looks so >> Wow, man. And but it looks so authoritative. Like if I sent that to authoritative. Like if I sent that to authoritative. Like if I sent that to you and you just read it, you would say, you and you just read it, you would say, you and you just read it, you would say, "Oh, Carrie did his homework. Look at "Oh, Carrie did his homework. Look at "Oh, Carrie did his homework. Look at him. Good job. Good job." And I don't him. Good job. Good job." And I don't him. Good job. Good job." And I don't know, like, have you ever talked about know, like, have you ever talked about know, like, have you ever talked about >> the veracity, the the the truth of AI >> the veracity, the the the truth of AI >> the veracity, the the the truth of AI from the platform yet? Or do you think from the platform yet? Or do you think from the platform yet? Or do you think that's a little premature or teaching that's a little premature or teaching that's a little premature or teaching people to question it? Because even with people to question it? Because even with people to question it? Because even with Exodus, like I've used it for preaching, Exodus, like I've used it for preaching, Exodus, like I've used it for preaching, it's pretty good. It can get you to it's pretty good. It can get you to it's pretty good. It can get you to commentaries you don't have. But then commentaries you don't have. But then commentaries you don't have. But then you got to go verify, verify, verify.

you got to go verify, verify, verify. you got to go verify, verify, verify. >> Verify. Yep. You have to verify. >> Verify. Yep. You have to verify. >> Verify. Yep. You have to verify. >> Have you talked about that at all with >> Have you talked about that at all with >> Have you talked about that at all with your church or do you think it's a good your church or do you think it's a good your church or do you think it's a good idea to idea to idea to >> I think it's a great idea. Um, so we do >> I think it's a great idea. Um, so we do >> I think it's a great idea. Um, so we do a teaching series every January called a teaching series every January called a teaching series every January called on the table and we put big questions on the table and we put big questions on the table and we put big questions that the culture is asking. Not not like that the culture is asking. Not not like that the culture is asking. Not not like a cultural flashoint moment like, hey, a cultural flashoint moment like, hey, a cultural flashoint moment like, hey, this happened on the news last week. this happened on the news last week. this happened on the news last week. Let's talk about it, but more enduring Let's talk about it, but more enduring Let's talk about it, but more enduring questions questions questions >> um that that people have and see what >> um that that people have and see what >> um that that people have and see what the the faith says about those. And the the faith says about those. And the the faith says about those. And we've done it. This will be our fifth we've done it. This will be our fifth we've done it. This will be our fifth year coming up. It's been really year coming up. It's been really year coming up. It's been really wellreceived by our church and our wellreceived by our church and our wellreceived by our church and our community. Several years ago, we did a community. Several years ago, we did a community. Several years ago, we did a technology question and AI was a part of technology question and AI was a part of technology question and AI was a part of it. But in January of 26, so coming up, it. But in January of 26, so coming up, it. But in January of 26, so coming up, one of the weeks is on AI. So, we have a one of the weeks is on AI. So, we have a one of the weeks is on AI. So, we have a whole um we have a whole sermon on I whole um we have a whole sermon on I whole um we have a whole sermon on I think the title of it is going to be um think the title of it is going to be um think the title of it is going to be um if we are created in God's image, uh how if we are created in God's image, uh how if we are created in God's image, uh how do we interact with AI or is AI created do we interact with AI or is AI created do we interact with AI or is AI created in God? It's Dr. Stzzer. Ed Stzer, one in God? It's Dr. Stzzer. Ed Stzer, one in God? It's Dr. Stzzer. Ed Stzer, one of my best friends, the dean at He's of my best friends, the dean at He's of my best friends, the dean at He's doing that one. He's doing that one. I doing that one. He's doing that one. I doing that one. He's doing that one. I can see Ed doing that. can see Ed doing that. can see Ed doing that. >> He's already sending me stuff he's >> He's already sending me stuff he's >> He's already sending me stuff he's thinking about doing. Um, and so he's thinking about doing. Um, and so he's thinking about doing. Um, and so he's like excited about the sermon. So that like excited about the sermon. So that like excited about the sermon. So that I'm I'm excited that he's excited about I'm I'm excited that he's excited about I'm I'm excited that he's excited about the sermon.

the sermon. the sermon. >> Good for you. Uh, anything else you're >> Good for you. Uh, anything else you're >> Good for you. Uh, anything else you're thinking about these days? thinking about these days? thinking about these days? >> Um, for sure the the saturation of local >> Um, for sure the the saturation of local >> Um, for sure the the saturation of local churches in a city. um what u the churches in a city. um what u the churches in a city. um what u the advantages of multiple locations in uh a advantages of multiple locations in uh a advantages of multiple locations in uh a concentrated geographical area, how that concentrated geographical area, how that concentrated geographical area, how that how that um creates a sense of how that um creates a sense of how that um creates a sense of burden for local cities. Um so caring burden for local cities. Um so caring burden for local cities. Um so caring for local cities, uh the sociology of for local cities, uh the sociology of for local cities, uh the sociology of caring for a local city, um the impact caring for a local city, um the impact caring for a local city, um the impact of churches in cities, I I I'm I've been of churches in cities, I I I'm I've been of churches in cities, I I I'm I've been thinking about that for a long time. But thinking about that for a long time. But thinking about that for a long time. But >> in what respect? like there's too many, >> in what respect? like there's too many, >> in what respect? like there's too many, not enough. not enough. not enough. >> Oh, I for sure don't think there's >> Oh, I for sure don't think there's >> Oh, I for sure don't think there's enough. But the the the how do we get enough. But the the the how do we get enough. But the the the how do we get our our people in our churches to view our our people in our churches to view our our people in our churches to view themselves not only as I go to this themselves not only as I go to this themselves not only as I go to this church, but I'm at this church in this church, but I'm at this church in this church, but I'm at this church in this city and how does this church make this city and how does this church make this city and how does this church make this city better? What's the role of our city better? What's the role of our city better? What's the role of our church in the city um in the community?

church in the city um in the community? church in the city um in the community? And then and then if you have multiple And then and then if you have multiple And then and then if you have multiple congregations throughout a geographical congregations throughout a geographical congregations throughout a geographical area, whether for me it's Southern area, whether for me it's Southern area, whether for me it's Southern California, you know, Southern California, you know, Southern California, you know, Southern California is not just one city. Some California is not just one city. Some California is not just one city. Some people think LA, but we most of our people think LA, but we most of our people think LA, but we most of our congregations are in Orange County. We congregations are in Orange County. We congregations are in Orange County. We have one in North San Diego County and have one in North San Diego County and have one in North San Diego County and then we we also now are in downtown LA, then we we also now are in downtown LA, then we we also now are in downtown LA, but but but Orange County alone is 34 different Orange County alone is 34 different Orange County alone is 34 different cities. And those city 3.2 2 million cities. And those city 3.2 2 million cities. And those city 3.2 2 million people. Orange County, 34 cities. Those people. Orange County, 34 cities. Those people. Orange County, 34 cities. Those cities are unique. And and how how does cities are unique. And and how how does cities are unique. And and how how does someone who works in one city, lives in someone who works in one city, lives in someone who works in one city, lives in one city, play their kids play sports in one city, play their kids play sports in one city, play their kids play sports in another city. What's the beauty of a another city. What's the beauty of a another city. What's the beauty of a local church that's in all of those local church that's in all of those local church that's in all of those cities? Um that that I'm just fascinated cities? Um that that I'm just fascinated cities? Um that that I'm just fascinated by that. by that. by that. >> Yeah, that is. So, what are what are >> Yeah, that is. So, what are what are >> Yeah, that is. So, what are what are your theories on that? the um your theories on that? the um your theories on that? the um when you have multiple congregations in when you have multiple congregations in when you have multiple congregations in multiple cities, if there's a um multiple cities, if there's a um multiple cities, if there's a um something connect like a connecting something connect like a connecting something connect like a connecting overall Southern California culture, I overall Southern California culture, I overall Southern California culture, I think it's awesome because people have think it's awesome because people have think it's awesome because people have friends that are in this city, they work friends that are in this city, they work friends that are in this city, they work in this city, their family moved to that in this city, their family moved to that in this city, their family moved to that city, and so there is while each city's city, and so there is while each city's city, and so there is while each city's unique, if there's a like a meta culture unique, if there's a like a meta culture unique, if there's a like a meta culture that sits above them, it's really an that sits above them, it's really an that sits above them, it's really an awesome opportunity for a local church awesome opportunity for a local church awesome opportunity for a local church to have um a a really significant impact to have um a a really significant impact to have um a a really significant impact in a whole region as opposed to just in in a whole region as opposed to just in in a whole region as opposed to just in one city. I I think when I live when I one city. I I think when I live when I one city. I I think when I live when I lived in South Florida, you know, Miami lived in South Florida, you know, Miami lived in South Florida, you know, Miami had different parts of Miami, but there

had different parts of Miami, but there had different parts of Miami, but there still wasn't overall Miami culture. And still wasn't overall Miami culture. And still wasn't overall Miami culture. And so I think I think it was the same it so I think I think it was the same it so I think I think it was the same it was the same there. Now, I think Miami was the same there. Now, I think Miami was the same there. Now, I think Miami is really different from Southern is really different from Southern is really different from Southern California, you know, and from Nashville California, you know, and from Nashville California, you know, and from Nashville where I where I live. And so there there where I where I live. And so there there where I where I live. And so there there are I know some churches but it's been are I know some churches but it's been are I know some churches but it's been very few as you know very few churches very few as you know very few churches very few as you know very few churches have moved outside of one specific have moved outside of one specific have moved outside of one specific geographical context. And I think I geographical context. And I think I geographical context. And I think I think that's one of the reasons why is think that's one of the reasons why is think that's one of the reasons why is because there there's a cultural um because there there's a cultural um because there there's a cultural um ethos that connects not only the ethos that connects not only the ethos that connects not only the churches but connects the cities churches but connects the cities churches but connects the cities together in in a region. together in in a region. together in in a region. >> Yeah. But that's interesting. Like I you >> Yeah. But that's interesting. Like I you >> Yeah. But that's interesting. Like I you live in Southern California. I'm there live in Southern California. I'm there live in Southern California. I'm there it seems like multiple times a year. it seems like multiple times a year. it seems like multiple times a year. >> You you're here as much as as as much as >> You you're here as much as as as much as >> You you're here as much as as as much as you can be because it's so awesome. you can be because it's so awesome. you can be because it's so awesome. >> It is pretty awesome. I love Southern >> It is pretty awesome. I love Southern >> It is pretty awesome. I love Southern California. But like Carl's bad has a California. But like Carl's bad has a California. But like Carl's bad has a vibe that is totally different than vibe that is totally different than vibe that is totally different than Oceanside, which is different than Oceanside, which is different than Oceanside, which is different than Orange County, which is different than Orange County, which is different than Orange County, which is different than Long Beach, which is different than Long Beach, which is different than Long Beach, which is different than Manhattan Beach. Manhattan Beach. Manhattan Beach. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Do people think in terms of communities >> Do people think in terms of communities >> Do people think in terms of communities there? Like, there? Like, there? Like, >> you know, I'm all of those all of those >> you know, I'm all of those all of those >> you know, I'm all of those all of those are really different from each other.

are really different from each other. are really different from each other. >> The question is, are there values that >> The question is, are there values that >> The question is, are there values that transcend all of those? you know, um, transcend all of those? you know, um, transcend all of those? you know, um, >> okay, we know, you know, there's some >> okay, we know, you know, there's some >> okay, we know, you know, there's some things that transcend all of them. things that transcend all of them. things that transcend all of them. They're all they're all at least They're all they're all at least They're all they're all at least >> Orange County and North, they're all >> Orange County and North, they're all >> Orange County and North, they're all rooting for the Dodgers, you know, uh, rooting for the Dodgers, you know, uh, rooting for the Dodgers, you know, uh, Carl'sbad, Oceanside, maybe for the Carl'sbad, Oceanside, maybe for the Carl'sbad, Oceanside, maybe for the Padres's, but but North rooting for the Padres's, but but North rooting for the Padres's, but but North rooting for the for the Dodgers, for the for the Lakers for the Dodgers, for the for the Lakers for the Dodgers, for the for the Lakers as a whole. Um, I that's that's the as a whole. Um, I that's that's the as a whole. Um, I that's that's the simple one. um more a more sophisticated simple one. um more a more sophisticated simple one. um more a more sophisticated view is uh what what are some some view is uh what what are some some view is uh what what are some some cultural um idols if you want to go cultural um idols if you want to go cultural um idols if you want to go negative and then some cultural um negative and then some cultural um negative and then some cultural um blessings that that people created in blessings that that people created in blessings that that people created in the image of God and even though the the image of God and even though the the image of God and even though the image of God's been distorted in image of God's been distorted in image of God's been distorted in humanity because of the fall there humanity because of the fall there humanity because of the fall there really some affirm affirmable beautiful really some affirm affirmable beautiful really some affirm affirmable beautiful things that we're seeing in in people things that we're seeing in in people things that we're seeing in in people that he created and I' I' I'd say in that he created and I' I' I'd say in that he created and I' I' I'd say in Southern California the idol would be Southern California the idol would be Southern California the idol would be success like I want to I want to prove success like I want to I want to prove success like I want to I want to prove that I'm effective. I want to accomplish that I'm effective. I want to accomplish that I'm effective. I want to accomplish much. I want to I want to win. I want to much. I want to I want to win. I want to much. I want to I want to win. I want to win in this in this world. And so that win in this in this world. And so that win in this in this world. And so that identifying that as a cultural idol I identifying that as a cultural idol I identifying that as a cultural idol I think can then impact messages that go think can then impact messages that go think can then impact messages that go to all all different kind of cities in to all all different kind of cities in to all all different kind of cities in the same context that hey you you're the same context that hey you you're the same context that hey you you're exhausted because you're trying to exhausted because you're trying to exhausted because you're trying to achieve and you can receive God's grace.

achieve and you can receive God's grace. achieve and you can receive God's grace. Um, Um, Um, >> yeah. And I think >> yeah. And I think >> yeah. And I think >> the idols, is that uniquely California? >> the idols, is that uniquely California? >> the idols, is that uniquely California? I mean, Keller spent a lot of time I mean, Keller spent a lot of time I mean, Keller spent a lot of time thinking about knocking down idols and thinking about knocking down idols and thinking about knocking down idols and gently chipping away at them. gently chipping away at them. gently chipping away at them. >> He was he he was excellent. I mean, his >> He was he he was excellent. I mean, his >> He was he he was excellent. I mean, his book Counterfeit Gods is book Counterfeit Gods is book Counterfeit Gods is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> One of my He wrote a lot of amazing >> One of my He wrote a lot of amazing >> One of my He wrote a lot of amazing books, but that book to me was books, but that book to me was books, but that book to me was >> so profound. >> so profound. >> so profound. >> It's probably my favorite killer book. >> It's probably my favorite killer book. >> It's probably my favorite killer book. >> Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. >> Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. >> Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. >> Cuz it's so challenging. It's just like >> Cuz it's so challenging. It's just like >> Cuz it's so challenging. It's just like Yeah. And it's all the disordered loves, Yeah. And it's all the disordered loves, Yeah. And it's all the disordered loves, right, that he got from I think that right, that he got from I think that right, that he got from I think that goes back to Augustine. goes back to Augustine. goes back to Augustine. >> Disordered loves. Yeah. But he he >> Disordered loves. Yeah. But he he >> Disordered loves. Yeah. But he he expressed it so well and they changed expressed it so well and they changed expressed it so well and they changed over the course of his three decades in over the course of his three decades in over the course of his three decades in New York City is what he told me. New York City is what he told me. New York City is what he told me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, like when he came in, it was >> You know, like when he came in, it was >> You know, like when he came in, it was sort of this is not your father's church sort of this is not your father's church sort of this is not your father's church and then it was success. And then he and then it was success. And then he and then it was success. And then he said toward the end of his ministry and said toward the end of his ministry and said toward the end of his ministry and the end of his life, he saw the idol the end of his life, he saw the idol the end of his life, he saw the idol switching to identity. that everything switching to identity. that everything switching to identity. that everything from sexuality to success to your status from sexuality to success to your status from sexuality to success to your status as single or married. as single or married. as single or married. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To um all the other markers were now >> To um all the other markers were now >> To um all the other markers were now going to identity to how you voted, you going to identity to how you voted, you going to identity to how you voted, you know, was was now know, was was now know, was was now >> identity based. And he said, "Yeah, if I >> identity based. And he said, "Yeah, if I >> identity based. And he said, "Yeah, if I was attacking another idol, I would was attacking another idol, I would was attacking another idol, I would probably attack identity."

probably attack identity." probably attack identity." >> And that's that's fascinating. Yeah. >> And that's that's fascinating. Yeah. >> And that's that's fascinating. Yeah. It's I I think it's the things that we It's I I think it's the things that we It's I I think it's the things that we think about when we're not supposed to think about when we're not supposed to think about when we're not supposed to on our job be thinking about something on our job be thinking about something on our job be thinking about something that sort of form who we are as a that sort of form who we are as a that sort of form who we are as a leader. leader. leader. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you have been thinking about um >> And you have been thinking about um >> And you have been thinking about um leadership in the long haul. Like how do leadership in the long haul. Like how do leadership in the long haul. Like how do you get uh stay healthy in the long you get uh stay healthy in the long you get uh stay healthy in the long haul? I I was answering a DM in my art haul? I I was answering a DM in my art haul? I I was answering a DM in my art of leadership academy this morning or I of leadership academy this morning or I of leadership academy this morning or I guess it was a post from somebody. I guess it was a post from somebody. I guess it was a post from somebody. I talked about my burnout 20 years ago and talked about my burnout 20 years ago and talked about my burnout 20 years ago and they're like, you know, there's just so they're like, you know, there's just so they're like, you know, there's just so many examples of people who fail. And I many examples of people who fail. And I many examples of people who fail. And I said, "No, but there are faithful said, "No, but there are faithful said, "No, but there are faithful examples. Like, not everybody has to examples. Like, not everybody has to examples. Like, not everybody has to burn out." And right, unfortunately, burn out." And right, unfortunately, burn out." And right, unfortunately, it's the people who burn out or make a it's the people who burn out or make a it's the people who burn out or make a mistake that make the headlines. mistake that make the headlines. mistake that make the headlines. >> But that's been a passion of yours. Why >> But that's been a passion of yours. Why >> But that's been a passion of yours. Why Why have you decided to write and think Why have you decided to write and think Why have you decided to write and think >> about staying rooted as a leader, >> about staying rooted as a leader, >> about staying rooted as a leader, avoiding moral failure, but more than avoiding moral failure, but more than avoiding moral failure, but more than that, like flourishing, that, like flourishing, that, like flourishing, >> right? And and I think those are they're >> right? And and I think those are they're >> right? And and I think those are they're connected, but two different two connected, but two different two connected, but two different two different questions. And there's some different questions. And there's some different questions. And there's some days where, let's be honest, Carrie, days where, let's be honest, Carrie, days where, let's be honest, Carrie, we're like, we're like, we're like, >> man, we would rejoice if we don't even >> man, we would rejoice if we don't even >> man, we would rejoice if we don't even need flourishing. Let's just get people need flourishing. Let's just get people need flourishing. Let's just get people to finish, you know, let's just get to finish, you know, let's just get to finish, you know, let's just get people, people, people, >> you know, let's just get people not to >> you know, let's just get people not to >> you know, let's just get people not to fall.

fall. fall. >> Yeah. and and because of the damage of >> Yeah. and and because of the damage of >> Yeah. and and because of the damage of >> of toppling, you know, a tree falls and >> of toppling, you know, a tree falls and >> of toppling, you know, a tree falls and man, somebody shows up with a chainsaw, man, somebody shows up with a chainsaw, man, somebody shows up with a chainsaw, cuts that thing down, replants the cuts that thing down, replants the cuts that thing down, replants the grass, everything's uh pulled out. All grass, everything's uh pulled out. All grass, everything's uh pulled out. All the wreckage is pulled out in a day. And the wreckage is pulled out in a day. And the wreckage is pulled out in a day. And really, life moves on. When a leader really, life moves on. When a leader really, life moves on. When a leader topples, I mean, the the implica, it's topples, I mean, the the implica, it's topples, I mean, the the implica, it's not a day of cleanup. It it's a long not a day of cleanup. It it's a long not a day of cleanup. It it's a long time. It's a long time of cleanup. time. It's a long time of cleanup. time. It's a long time of cleanup. Communities are impacted. Families are Communities are impacted. Families are Communities are impacted. Families are devastated. If it's a local church devastated. If it's a local church devastated. If it's a local church pastor or a ministry leader, u people pastor or a ministry leader, u people pastor or a ministry leader, u people really wrestle with do I discard really wrestle with do I discard really wrestle with do I discard everything I heard this person say? Was everything I heard this person say? Was everything I heard this person say? Was I is what I believed under this person's I is what I believed under this person's I is what I believed under this person's leadership leadership leadership was was that going on while this person was was that going on while this person was was that going on while this person was was um helping me encounter the was was um helping me encounter the was was um helping me encounter the grace of God? And it's just so grace of God? And it's just so grace of God? And it's just so disorienting. So the cleanup of a fallen disorienting. So the cleanup of a fallen disorienting. So the cleanup of a fallen leader is not leader is not leader is not happening in a quick in a quick run. And happening in a quick in a quick run. And happening in a quick in a quick run. And so I think you and I both have the same so I think you and I both have the same so I think you and I both have the same heart. Let's for sure we want people to heart. Let's for sure we want people to heart. Let's for sure we want people to flourish. But man, if we could just stop flourish. But man, if we could just stop flourish. But man, if we could just stop leaders from Toppin, we'd be in a great leaders from Toppin, we'd be in a great leaders from Toppin, we'd be in a great place. This episode is brought to you by place. This episode is brought to you by place. This episode is brought to you by AI and the Future Church. So just a AI and the Future Church. So just a AI and the Future Church. So just a quick heads up before we get into the quick heads up before we get into the quick heads up before we get into the episode because this one is episode because this one is episode because this one is timesensitive. My new book AI and the timesensitive. My new book AI and the timesensitive. My new book AI and the Future Church releases September 15th.

Future Church releases September 15th. Future Church releases September 15th. And if you have been thinking about And if you have been thinking about And if you have been thinking about pre-ordering, this is the week. Here's pre-ordering, this is the week. Here's pre-ordering, this is the week. Here's why. Everyone who pre-orders before why. Everyone who pre-orders before why. Everyone who pre-orders before September 14th gets an executive September 14th gets an executive September 14th gets an executive summary, beautifully designed, and the summary, beautifully designed, and the summary, beautifully designed, and the audio book completely free. After the audio book completely free. After the audio book completely free. After the 14th, those bonuses are gone. But 14th, those bonuses are gone. But 14th, those bonuses are gone. But honestly, the deadline isn't the real honestly, the deadline isn't the real honestly, the deadline isn't the real reason to act. Here's the real reason. reason to act. Here's the real reason. reason to act. Here's the real reason. AI isn't waiting. Your congregation AI isn't waiting. Your congregation AI isn't waiting. Your congregation isn't waiting. I mean, this is an issue isn't waiting. I mean, this is an issue isn't waiting. I mean, this is an issue right now. Like right now, someone in right now. Like right now, someone in right now. Like right now, someone in your church is asking AI the questions your church is asking AI the questions your church is asking AI the questions they used to ask their pastor or maybe they used to ask their pastor or maybe they used to ask their pastor or maybe you. And this fall is going to ask more you. And this fall is going to ask more you. And this fall is going to ask more of you than last autumn did. And that's of you than last autumn did. And that's of you than last autumn did. And that's exactly what this book is for. It's the exactly what this book is for. It's the exactly what this book is for. It's the playbook for the moment we're in. The playbook for the moment we're in. The playbook for the moment we're in. The three shifts that I believe will three shifts that I believe will three shifts that I believe will position your church to reach more position your church to reach more position your church to reach more people and to thrive in the age of AI. people and to thrive in the age of AI. people and to thrive in the age of AI. Not despite the most disruptive era in Not despite the most disruptive era in Not despite the most disruptive era in our lifetime, but because of it. Because our lifetime, but because of it. Because our lifetime, but because of it. Because as the world becomes more artificial, I as the world becomes more artificial, I as the world becomes more artificial, I believe the church's calling is to believe the church's calling is to believe the church's calling is to become more human. And your church may become more human. And your church may become more human. And your church may actually be more prepared for this actually be more prepared for this actually be more prepared for this moment than you think. And one more moment than you think. And one more moment than you think. And one more thing, if you lead a team, this is the thing, if you lead a team, this is the thing, if you lead a team, this is the time to order copies for your staff or time to order copies for your staff or time to order copies for your staff or board. Read it together this fall. It'll board. Read it together this fall. It'll board. Read it together this fall. It'll change how you plan for 2027. So, here's change how you plan for 2027. So, here's change how you plan for 2027. So, here's what to do. Go to aifuture.urch what to do. Go to aifuture.urch what to do. Go to aifuture.urch and pre-order before September 14th to and pre-order before September 14th to and pre-order before September 14th to lock in your bonuses. That's a lock in your bonuses. That's a lock in your bonuses. That's a future.urch or just click the link in future.urch or just click the link in future.urch or just click the link in the description of this episode. Again,

the description of this episode. Again, the description of this episode. Again, bonuses end September 14th. I cannot bonuses end September 14th. I cannot bonuses end September 14th. I cannot wait to get this in your hands. This wait to get this in your hands. This wait to get this in your hands. This episode is brought to you by my friends episode is brought to you by my friends episode is brought to you by my friends at Global Christian Relief. For a lot of at Global Christian Relief. For a lot of at Global Christian Relief. For a lot of us, the persecuted church can feel us, the persecuted church can feel us, the persecuted church can feel pretty distant. But the global church pretty distant. But the global church pretty distant. But the global church isn't an idea. It's not a concept. It's isn't an idea. It's not a concept. It's isn't an idea. It's not a concept. It's a family. And when one part of the body a family. And when one part of the body a family. And when one part of the body suffers, we don't get to stay suffers, we don't get to stay suffers, we don't get to stay spectators. were called to action. So, I spectators. were called to action. So, I spectators. were called to action. So, I want to tell you about a nonprofit you want to tell you about a nonprofit you want to tell you about a nonprofit you should know about, Global Christian should know about, Global Christian should know about, Global Christian Relief. This organization is led by Relief. This organization is led by Relief. This organization is led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for over a decade, and I'm thankful for the over a decade, and I'm thankful for the over a decade, and I'm thankful for the way he leads GCR because he's helping way he leads GCR because he's helping way he leads GCR because he's helping our persecuted brothers and sisters in our persecuted brothers and sisters in our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ know that they're not alone. GCR Christ know that they're not alone. GCR Christ know that they're not alone. GCR supports our global church family in supports our global church family in supports our global church family in places where following Jesus carries a places where following Jesus carries a places where following Jesus carries a real cost. places like Nigeria, real cost. places like Nigeria, real cost. places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many more. GCR brings scripture to people more. GCR brings scripture to people more. GCR brings scripture to people where it's restricted. It provides where it's restricted. It provides where it's restricted. It provides emergency relief when crisis hits and emergency relief when crisis hits and emergency relief when crisis hits and supports the church long term so it can supports the church long term so it can supports the church long term so it can remain and grow stronger. When you remain and grow stronger. When you remain and grow stronger. When you support the global church, you're not support the global church, you're not support the global church, you're not just supporting a cause, you're standing just supporting a cause, you're standing just supporting a cause, you're standing with your brothers and sisters, with with your brothers and sisters, with with your brothers and sisters, with your family. Global Christian Relief is your family. Global Christian Relief is your family. Global Christian Relief is doing some really impactful work. I doing some really impactful work. I doing some really impactful work. I would love for you to check them out.

would love for you to check them out. would love for you to check them out. All you have to do is go to gcreief.org. All you have to do is go to gcreief.org. All you have to do is go to gcreief.org. That's gcreief.org. You know, I've had that I I would say at You know, I've had that I I would say at this point it probably you can measure this point it probably you can measure this point it probably you can measure it in days. it in days. it in days. >> The conversations I've had with leaders >> The conversations I've had with leaders >> The conversations I've had with leaders mostly off mic mostly off mic mostly off mic >> about when you see a leader that we all >> about when you see a leader that we all >> about when you see a leader that we all trusted, trusted, trusted, followed fall. followed fall. followed fall. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Normally it's through sexual sins. >> Normally it's through sexual sins. >> Normally it's through sexual sins. Sometimes it's others. But the devil Sometimes it's others. But the devil Sometimes it's others. But the devil doesn't have to be creative. He just doesn't have to be creative. He just doesn't have to be creative. He just uses the same playbook. We keep falling uses the same playbook. We keep falling uses the same playbook. We keep falling for it. for it. for it. >> I mean, the wake that has left in my >> I mean, the wake that has left in my >> I mean, the wake that has left in my life, the wake that has left in so many. life, the wake that has left in so many. life, the wake that has left in so many. And it does it does raise exactly that And it does it does raise exactly that And it does it does raise exactly that question. I've had long dinners over question. I've had long dinners over question. I've had long dinners over that. So, does that mean everything was that. So, does that mean everything was that. So, does that mean everything was fake? Like for two decades fake? Like for two decades fake? Like for two decades >> it was fake. What is what is your take >> it was fake. What is what is your take >> it was fake. What is what is your take on that? When a leader falls, on that? When a leader falls, on that? When a leader falls, >> um do you just throw everything out and >> um do you just throw everything out and >> um do you just throw everything out and say we can no longer speak of this say we can no longer speak of this say we can no longer speak of this person? We didn't learn anything good. person? We didn't learn anything good. person? We didn't learn anything good. It was all fake. What what is your take It was all fake. What what is your take It was all fake. What what is your take on that on that on that >> man? So it's such a complex question. Um >> man? So it's such a complex question. Um >> man? So it's such a complex question. Um I I I think we look at each we have it's I I I think we look at each we have it's I I I think we look at each we have it's the hard it's probably more arts than the hard it's probably more arts than the hard it's probably more arts than science. We have to look at each science. We have to look at each science. We have to look at each instance. We do have to remember that instance. We do have to remember that instance. We do have to remember that it's not only that person, but there's it's not only that person, but there's it's not only that person, but there's spouses and there's kids and there's spouses and there's kids and there's spouses and there's kids and there's people who I I'm I'm not wanting to people who I I'm I'm not wanting to people who I I'm I'm not wanting to bring to throw more pain on top of bring to throw more pain on top of bring to throw more pain on top of what's already really what's already really what's already really >> what's already really painful. But um I >> what's already really painful. But um I >> what's already really painful. But um I think Carrie, there's a time where uh think Carrie, there's a time where uh think Carrie, there's a time where uh there are some leaders where you learn there are some leaders where you learn there are some leaders where you learn that all of that that sin that was very

that all of that that sin that was very that all of that that sin that was very secret was going on the entire time of secret was going on the entire time of secret was going on the entire time of that person's ministry. that person's ministry. that person's ministry. >> Um I I think I process that maybe this >> Um I I think I process that maybe this >> Um I I think I process that maybe this is just me, but I think I process that is just me, but I think I process that is just me, but I think I process that differently than someone who had a differently than someone who had a differently than someone who had a really fruitful and faithful to Jesus really fruitful and faithful to Jesus really fruitful and faithful to Jesus long season and then they have a a long season and then they have a a long season and then they have a a really dark season in their life. I that really dark season in their life. I that really dark season in their life. I that to me that's that's different than to me that's that's different than to me that's that's different than someone who had decades of being really someone who had decades of being really someone who had decades of being really two different people. Um you know that's two different people. Um you know that's two different people. Um you know that's one way to look at it. I you know one way to look at it. I you know one way to look at it. I you know another is uh if we look back at heroes another is uh if we look back at heroes another is uh if we look back at heroes of the faith from years in the past um of the faith from years in the past um of the faith from years in the past um there's there's people who've made a there's there's people who've made a there's there's people who've made a significant impact on me through their significant impact on me through their significant impact on me through their writing but they also said some really writing but they also said some really writing but they also said some really really bad things you know and and so really bad things you know and and so really bad things you know and and so and had some and had some some sins in and had some and had some some sins in and had some and had some some sins in their life that their life that their life that um we we don't approve of right and so um we we don't approve of right and so um we we don't approve of right and so if we throw away everything I think we if we throw away everything I think we if we throw away everything I think we we probably are putting ourselves in a we probably are putting ourselves in a we probably are putting ourselves in a unsustain ustainable place. Um, now I unsustain ustainable place. Um, now I unsustain ustainable place. Um, now I think that's different from quick think that's different from quick think that's different from quick restoration. I don't think I'm I'm not a restoration. I don't think I'm I'm not a restoration. I don't think I'm I'm not a quick restoration guy and I think quick restoration guy and I think quick restoration guy and I think >> there's some there's some sins that a a >> there's some there's some sins that a a >> there's some there's some sins that a a pastor commits that that person should pastor commits that that person should pastor commits that that person should never be in ministry again. Um, just never be in ministry again. Um, just never be in ministry again. Um, just because God doesn't need any of us, God because God doesn't need any of us, God because God doesn't need any of us, God doesn't he he he ch he delights in using doesn't he he he ch he delights in using doesn't he he he ch he delights in using us. I'm not saying the person shouldn't us. I'm not saying the person shouldn't us. I'm not saying the person shouldn't be restored to community and be restored to community and be restored to community and >> right >> right >> right >> and cared for. And I'm not saying that >> and cared for. And I'm not saying that >> and cared for. And I'm not saying that God can't use the person in in a

God can't use the person in in a God can't use the person in in a different um field and a different different um field and a different different um field and a different discipline, but you know, why why put discipline, but you know, why why put discipline, but you know, why why put the person back in a local church the person back in a local church the person back in a local church ministry context when he does when we ministry context when he does when we ministry context when he does when we theologically believe he doesn't need theologically believe he doesn't need theologically believe he doesn't need any of us? any of us? any of us? Why? Why? Why do it? Why? You know, Why? Why? Why do it? Why? You know, Why? Why? Why do it? Why? You know, what's the what's the win? What's the what's the what's the win? What's the what's the what's the win? What's the win? Unless the person win? Unless the person win? Unless the person >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I agree with that. I mean, the thing >> I agree with that. I mean, the thing >> I agree with that. I mean, the thing about do you throw the whole thing out? about do you throw the whole thing out? about do you throw the whole thing out? I've sat down and had long conversations I've sat down and had long conversations I've sat down and had long conversations with people who were co-workers and also with people who were co-workers and also with people who were co-workers and also quote victims of that person's quote victims of that person's quote victims of that person's misdoings. misdoings. misdoings. >> Yeah. and long conversations about it. >> Yeah. and long conversations about it. >> Yeah. and long conversations about it. And I've heard many say, you know, first And I've heard many say, you know, first And I've heard many say, you know, first of all, we didn't know until of all, we didn't know until of all, we didn't know until it was exposed or I thought it was a it was exposed or I thought it was a it was exposed or I thought it was a one-off pattern or whatever and it was one-off pattern or whatever and it was one-off pattern or whatever and it was just a bad day or something and I just a bad day or something and I just a bad day or something and I realized, oh, there's this whole pattern realized, oh, there's this whole pattern realized, oh, there's this whole pattern of deception and grooming and all that of deception and grooming and all that of deception and grooming and all that stuff. But they're like, no, people stuff. But they're like, no, people stuff. But they're like, no, people actually got baptized and they're still actually got baptized and they're still actually got baptized and they're still Christians today. And some of the stuff Christians today. And some of the stuff Christians today. And some of the stuff that was taught actually was true and that was taught actually was true and that was taught actually was true and resonates with scripture.

resonates with scripture. resonates with scripture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I had a close coworker. We >> And I had a close coworker. We >> And I had a close coworker. We collaborated on a lot of stuff. And I collaborated on a lot of stuff. And I collaborated on a lot of stuff. And I mean it was as devastating as a death mean it was as devastating as a death mean it was as devastating as a death >> when I found out that there was >> when I found out that there was >> when I found out that there was something going on that I didn't know something going on that I didn't know something going on that I didn't know about. about. about. >> But I thought about it, you know, and >> But I thought about it, you know, and >> But I thought about it, you know, and and it's no excuse for anything, but I and it's no excuse for anything, but I and it's no excuse for anything, but I also thought, well, also thought, well, also thought, well, what we worked on together had truth. what we worked on together had truth. what we worked on together had truth. like I look back on that and I can stand like I look back on that and I can stand like I look back on that and I can stand by the words. I just can't stand by the by the words. I just can't stand by the by the words. I just can't stand by the character and I can't stand by the character and I can't stand by the character and I can't stand by the association, but I can stand by the association, but I can stand by the association, but I can stand by the words. So, it's words. So, it's words. So, it's >> it's highly highly complex. And I think >> it's highly highly complex. And I think >> it's highly highly complex. And I think you're right. Like, you know, I burned you're right. Like, you know, I burned you're right. Like, you know, I burned out 20 years ago out 20 years ago out 20 years ago >> and the primary victims of of that were >> and the primary victims of of that were >> and the primary victims of of that were my family, me, and a couple of close my family, me, and a couple of close my family, me, and a couple of close relationships where I just wasn't relationships where I just wasn't relationships where I just wasn't healthy enough to keep up the healthy enough to keep up the healthy enough to keep up the friendship. Uh, and fortunately, the friendship. Uh, and fortunately, the friendship. Uh, and fortunately, the church, I mean, the church always church, I mean, the church always church, I mean, the church always suffers when the leader isn't healthy. suffers when the leader isn't healthy. suffers when the leader isn't healthy. But it didn't undergo a collapse. I But it didn't undergo a collapse. I But it didn't undergo a collapse. I wasn't fired. wasn't fired. wasn't fired. >> No, that's a different context at that >> No, that's a different context at that >> No, that's a different context at that level. level. level. >> But one of the things that's very >> But one of the things that's very >> But one of the things that's very motivating for me is if I if I made a motivating for me is if I if I made a motivating for me is if I if I made a disqualifying mistake today, I just disqualifying mistake today, I just disqualifying mistake today, I just think about all the trust.

think about all the trust. think about all the trust. >> And the hardest would be in in in my >> And the hardest would be in in in my >> And the hardest would be in in in my family and in my close inner circle. But family and in my close inner circle. But family and in my close inner circle. But like the the millions of leaders that like the the millions of leaders that like the the millions of leaders that have accessed, you know, my content, have accessed, you know, my content, have accessed, you know, my content, your content, something like that. I your content, something like that. I your content, something like that. I think about the ripples. That's actually think about the ripples. That's actually think about the ripples. That's actually decent motivation to say like when that decent motivation to say like when that decent motivation to say like when that temptation shows up, just nip it in the temptation shows up, just nip it in the temptation shows up, just nip it in the bud. Talk to your friend, talk to your bud. Talk to your friend, talk to your bud. Talk to your friend, talk to your counselor, go to therapy, deal with it. counselor, go to therapy, deal with it. counselor, go to therapy, deal with it. >> Like I don't know. It's just such a >> Like I don't know. It's just such a >> Like I don't know. It's just such a strange age that we live in. strange age that we live in. strange age that we live in. >> Yeah. The the thing that makes me >> Yeah. The the thing that makes me >> Yeah. The the thing that makes me shudder though is I mean just like you I shudder though is I mean just like you I shudder though is I mean just like you I have friends who have toppled and have friends who have toppled and have friends who have toppled and imploded and imploded and imploded and that I mean sinned greatly and and that I mean sinned greatly and and that I mean sinned greatly and and walked away from from their calling. walked away from from their calling. walked away from from their calling. >> And they knew just like you and I know >> And they knew just like you and I know >> And they knew just like you and I know they knew the stories just like you and they knew the stories just like you and they knew the stories just like you and I know the stories. And when I when I I know the stories. And when I when I I know the stories. And when I when I hear of another leader falling, I I hear of another leader falling, I I hear of another leader falling, I I really Carrie do not think um oh man really Carrie do not think um oh man really Carrie do not think um oh man that would never happen to me. I think that would never happen to me. I think that would never happen to me. I think oh my goodness because I I there's been oh my goodness because I I there's been oh my goodness because I I there's been leaders who have fallen who and I this leaders who have fallen who and I this leaders who have fallen who and I this is not a false humility. this is a is not a false humility. this is a is not a false humility. this is a reality who I have been in prayer reality who I have been in prayer reality who I have been in prayer sessions with them or have been at a sessions with them or have been at a sessions with them or have been at a dinner table with them when they just dinner table with them when they just dinner table with them when they just graciously and I mean beautifully shared graciously and I mean beautifully shared graciously and I mean beautifully shared the gospel with a server or with a a the gospel with a server or with a a the gospel with a server or with a a friend who is at the table and I have friend who is at the table and I have friend who is at the table and I have thought that that brother loves Jesus thought that that brother loves Jesus thought that that brother loves Jesus more than I love Jesus. That more than I love Jesus. That more than I love Jesus. That >> wow >> wow >> wow >> that man spends more time with God than >> that man spends more time with God than >> that man spends more time with God than I spend spend with God and I've seen

I spend spend with God and I've seen I spend spend with God and I've seen those people some of those people those people some of those people those people some of those people topple. So when when that happened it it topple. So when when that happened it it topple. So when when that happened it it has caused me to not at all think um I has caused me to not at all think um I has caused me to not at all think um I am above it but am above it but am above it but only the grace of Jesus can who can keep only the grace of Jesus can who can keep only the grace of Jesus can who can keep me from falling to him who is able to me from falling to him who is able to me from falling to him who is able to keep me from standing the last verse in keep me from standing the last verse in keep me from standing the last verse in the book of Jude I I he's the only one the book of Jude I I he's the only one the book of Jude I I he's the only one who can keep me from falling because who can keep me from falling because who can keep me from falling because Augustine you mentioned him earlier he Augustine you mentioned him earlier he Augustine you mentioned him earlier he said what am I without you Lord but a said what am I without you Lord but a said what am I without you Lord but a guide to my own downfall. I mean I can guide to my own downfall. I mean I can guide to my own downfall. I mean I can completely completely completely >> that's great >> that's great >> that's great >> lead myself to fall you know. Yeah. Can >> lead myself to fall you know. Yeah. Can >> lead myself to fall you know. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit more? we talk about that a little bit more? we talk about that a little bit more? >> Um, and one of the things I mean I'm >> Um, and one of the things I mean I'm >> Um, and one of the things I mean I'm really committed to on this show is just really committed to on this show is just really committed to on this show is just having the most transparent having the most transparent having the most transparent conversations we can because conversations we can because conversations we can because >> uh I'm in the same thing. I don't think >> uh I'm in the same thing. I don't think >> uh I'm in the same thing. I don't think I'm above it. I think I could fall. In I'm above it. I think I could fall. In I'm above it. I think I could fall. In fact, I was having a conversation with a fact, I was having a conversation with a fact, I was having a conversation with a counselor, my therapist last week and I counselor, my therapist last week and I counselor, my therapist last week and I said, "Where am I most vulnerable right said, "Where am I most vulnerable right said, "Where am I most vulnerable right now? Like if I'm going to blow it with now? Like if I'm going to blow it with now? Like if I'm going to blow it with my family, with the ministry that God's my family, with the ministry that God's my family, with the ministry that God's interested me."

interested me." interested me." >> Yeah. And he just looked at me and it's >> Yeah. And he just looked at me and it's >> Yeah. And he just looked at me and it's not the first time he said it. He said, not the first time he said it. He said, not the first time he said it. He said, ' Carrie, the biggest liability, ' Carrie, the biggest liability, ' Carrie, the biggest liability, vulnerability you have right now is your vulnerability you have right now is your vulnerability you have right now is your pace. pace. pace. He says, 'You're still going too fast. He says, 'You're still going too fast. He says, 'You're still going too fast. 20 years out of burnout. Now, I haven't 20 years out of burnout. Now, I haven't 20 years out of burnout. Now, I haven't burned out, but I'm like, okay, take burned out, but I'm like, okay, take burned out, but I'm like, okay, take that that that >> take that seriously, prayerfully. I >> take that seriously, prayerfully. I >> take that seriously, prayerfully. I looked at my patterns and I think I told looked at my patterns and I think I told looked at my patterns and I think I told you I hit top tier status with my you I hit top tier status with my you I hit top tier status with my airline in May of this year. I'm like, airline in May of this year. I'm like, airline in May of this year. I'm like, hey, that was probably too much. That hey, that was probably too much. That hey, that was probably too much. That was too many conferences, too much time was too many conferences, too much time was too many conferences, too much time in the air. in the air. in the air. >> That's a lot of travel. That's a lot of >> That's a lot of travel. That's a lot of >> That's a lot of travel. That's a lot of travel, man. And so I I thought about travel, man. And so I I thought about travel, man. And so I I thought about it. I've already gone through it with my it. I've already gone through it with my it. I've already gone through it with my assistant, but like I love having my assistant, but like I love having my assistant, but like I love having my foot on the gas and and so I'm going to foot on the gas and and so I'm going to foot on the gas and and so I'm going to 4 days on on site. It'll be months in 4 days on on site. It'll be months in 4 days on on site. It'll be months in the rearview mirror by the time this the rearview mirror by the time this the rearview mirror by the time this airs and I'm going to unpack that and airs and I'm going to unpack that and airs and I'm going to unpack that and everything like cuz I'm like I this everything like cuz I'm like I this everything like cuz I'm like I this could happen to me and I don't want it could happen to me and I don't want it could happen to me and I don't want it to happen to me. When you think about to happen to me. When you think about to happen to me. When you think about that from your perspective, how do you that from your perspective, how do you that from your perspective, how do you process that, Eric? process that, Eric? process that, Eric? >> Man, that's good. I I I I want to be >> Man, that's good. I I I I want to be >> Man, that's good. I I I I want to be vulnerable. I appreciate it about about vulnerable. I appreciate it about about vulnerable. I appreciate it about about your podcast because I've learned from your podcast because I've learned from your podcast because I've learned from the vulnerability that that you provide the vulnerability that that you provide the vulnerability that that you provide and then I think that's encouraged and then I think that's encouraged and then I think that's encouraged guests to be vulnerable too. So I'll guests to be vulnerable too. So I'll guests to be vulnerable too. So I'll answer two two perspectives. One, I have answer two two perspectives. One, I have answer two two perspectives. One, I have had the opportunity to to shepherd had the opportunity to to shepherd had the opportunity to to shepherd people who have imploded or or fallen.

people who have imploded or or fallen. people who have imploded or or fallen. And there was a season where Kay and I And there was a season where Kay and I And there was a season where Kay and I actually had couples in our home and who actually had couples in our home and who actually had couples in our home and who when we lived in Nashville who would when we lived in Nashville who would when we lived in Nashville who would stay with us for a couple days and we stay with us for a couple days and we stay with us for a couple days and we would, you know, care for them and pray would, you know, care for them and pray would, you know, care for them and pray over them. And in those vulnerable over them. And in those vulnerable over them. And in those vulnerable moments, I I I moments, I I I moments, I I I saw some common threads in in people who saw some common threads in in people who saw some common threads in in people who fell. M um what what the common thread fell. M um what what the common thread fell. M um what what the common thread isn't which people always look for is isn't which people always look for is isn't which people always look for is the theological tribe you know like oh the theological tribe you know like oh the theological tribe you know like oh this person believes this about God or this person believes this about God or this person believes this about God or has this theology has this theology has this theology >> his theology was bad >> his theology was bad >> his theology was bad >> yeah like it's a bad >> yeah like it's a bad >> yeah like it's a bad >> view of the trinity was just a little >> view of the trinity was just a little >> view of the trinity was just a little bit the reality is uh I don't think bit the reality is uh I don't think bit the reality is uh I don't think people say that as much anymore because people say that as much anymore because people say that as much anymore because we have seen um sin is no respector of we have seen um sin is no respector of we have seen um sin is no respector of theological tribe theological tribe theological tribe >> it's an equal opportunity >> it's an equal opportunity >> it's an equal opportunity >> and implosions or toppling transcends >> and implosions or toppling transcends >> and implosions or toppling transcends tribes But what I what I did did pick up tribes But what I what I did did pick up tribes But what I what I did did pick up on was a sense of boredom in their life. on was a sense of boredom in their life. on was a sense of boredom in their life. Um, and tired of the basics. And so it's Um, and tired of the basics. And so it's Um, and tired of the basics. And so it's caused me to to ask God to continually caused me to to ask God to continually caused me to to ask God to continually give me awe for him and awe for what I give me awe for him and awe for what I give me awe for him and awe for what I get to do and all for my family. Um, you get to do and all for my family. Um, you get to do and all for my family. Um, you know, Bla1 Pascal, he he he said that know, Bla1 Pascal, he he he said that know, Bla1 Pascal, he he he said that that the problem with humanity is we that the problem with humanity is we that the problem with humanity is we can't sit in a room by ourselves. You can't sit in a room by ourselves. You can't sit in a room by ourselves. You know, that that boredom plagues us. And know, that that boredom plagues us. And know, that that boredom plagues us. And and that really boredom is a sin because and that really boredom is a sin because and that really boredom is a sin because if you are bored, it means you're not if you are bored, it means you're not if you are bored, it means you're not looking to God because he's thrilling. I looking to God because he's thrilling. I looking to God because he's thrilling. I mean, he's all satisfying, all mean, he's all satisfying, all mean, he's all satisfying, all quenching.

quenching. quenching. >> But I have seen boredom creep in. And >> But I have seen boredom creep in. And >> But I have seen boredom creep in. And when boredom creeps in, um, this isn't when boredom creeps in, um, this isn't when boredom creeps in, um, this isn't necessarily my struggle. I'll share my necessarily my struggle. I'll share my necessarily my struggle. I'll share my struggle in a moment, but what I've seen struggle in a moment, but what I've seen struggle in a moment, but what I've seen in others is um boredom causing them to in others is um boredom causing them to in others is um boredom causing them to just look for something, you know, um just look for something, you know, um just look for something, you know, um just look for something else. And just look for something else. And just look for something else. And whether that's sadly in some cases um whether that's sadly in some cases um whether that's sadly in some cases um the thrill of pursuing someone other the thrill of pursuing someone other the thrill of pursuing someone other than your wife, you know, um that that than your wife, you know, um that that than your wife, you know, um that that boredom can lead to that. And for me, um boredom can lead to that. And for me, um boredom can lead to that. And for me, um you you would say the the pedal to the you you would say the the pedal to the you you would say the the pedal to the to the gas. M mine is I I still struggle to the gas. M mine is I I still struggle to the gas. M mine is I I still struggle with misplaced identity at times, which with misplaced identity at times, which with misplaced identity at times, which is is finding my my worth in what I've is is finding my my worth in what I've is is finding my my worth in what I've done or or my work or something I've done or or my work or something I've done or or my work or something I've accomplished. And that's dangerous. accomplished. And that's dangerous. accomplished. And that's dangerous. That's dangerous because if I if I find That's dangerous because if I if I find That's dangerous because if I if I find my worth in in what I've done or what my worth in in what I've done or what my worth in in what I've done or what I'm currently doing and I'm and I don't I'm currently doing and I'm and I don't I'm currently doing and I'm and I don't feel like I'm doing a a great job, that feel like I'm doing a a great job, that feel like I'm doing a a great job, that can lead you to to being can lead you to to being can lead you to to being um um um I mean, as far as it goes as far as I mean, as far as it goes as far as I mean, as far as it goes as far as depression or or just being so down that depression or or just being so down that depression or or just being so down that you then look for something to be you then look for something to be you then look for something to be soulless or comfort or an escape. And so soulless or comfort or an escape. And so soulless or comfort or an escape. And so I think sometimes when people fall, I think sometimes when people fall, I think sometimes when people fall, they're looking for an escape. And I'm they're looking for an escape. And I'm they're looking for an escape. And I'm not currently looking for an escape, but not currently looking for an escape, but not currently looking for an escape, but what I what I know in my the danger of what I what I know in my the danger of what I what I know in my the danger of my own soul is um if I find my worth in my own soul is um if I find my worth in my own soul is um if I find my worth in what I've accomplished and I don't feel what I've accomplished and I don't feel what I've accomplished and I don't feel like I'm accomplishing, will I then be like I'm accomplishing, will I then be like I'm accomplishing, will I then be in a place where I'm looking for an

in a place where I'm looking for an in a place where I'm looking for an escape because I'm I'm I'm so sad by the escape because I'm I'm I'm so sad by the escape because I'm I'm I'm so sad by the state of my life, you know? So, I I I state of my life, you know? So, I I I state of my life, you know? So, I I I I've tried to play chess on how the I've tried to play chess on how the I've tried to play chess on how the enemy would take me out, you know. And enemy would take me out, you know. And enemy would take me out, you know. And that's and now the the reality is if I that's and now the the reality is if I that's and now the the reality is if I just will come back to Jesus over and just will come back to Jesus over and just will come back to Jesus over and over again, I'll be reminded that my over again, I'll be reminded that my over again, I'll be reminded that my identity is secure. Not because of what identity is secure. Not because of what identity is secure. Not because of what I do, but but what he's done. But I I do, but but what he's done. But I I do, but but what he's done. But I think that's probably true for I don't think that's probably true for I don't think that's probably true for I don't know if you're a huge Inagram fan, but know if you're a huge Inagram fan, but know if you're a huge Inagram fan, but I've never even taken it, but everyone I've never even taken it, but everyone I've never even taken it, but everyone tells me I'm in 3. So I would assume tells me I'm in 3. So I would assume tells me I'm in 3. So I would assume that that that >> I would assume that's that's probably a >> I would assume that's that's probably a >> I would assume that's that's probably a common downfall for any Ingram 3es is my common downfall for any Ingram 3es is my common downfall for any Ingram 3es is my guess. guess. guess. >> It would be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first >> It would be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first >> It would be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first of all, thank you for sharing that. of all, thank you for sharing that. of all, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Um, and that whole boredom piece, Yeah. Um, and that whole boredom piece, Yeah. Um, and that whole boredom piece, it's really interesting. You know, I it's really interesting. You know, I it's really interesting. You know, I felt some stirrings in my late 40s that felt some stirrings in my late 40s that felt some stirrings in my late 40s that had me getting bored with being a lead had me getting bored with being a lead had me getting bored with being a lead pastor. And that sounds horrible, but I pastor. And that sounds horrible, but I pastor. And that sounds horrible, but I think anyone who's been a lead pastor think anyone who's been a lead pastor think anyone who's been a lead pastor for a couple of minutes can identify for a couple of minutes can identify for a couple of minutes can identify that there are seasons where you feel that there are seasons where you feel that there are seasons where you feel that. One of the books I became aware of that. One of the books I became aware of that. One of the books I became aware of and read at the time, I forget the and read at the time, I forget the and read at the time, I forget the author, but it's like 10 signs of a author, but it's like 10 signs of a author, but it's like 10 signs of a leadership crash. One of them is staying leadership crash. One of them is staying leadership crash. One of them is staying too long.

too long. too long. >> And I think another one was boredom. >> And I think another one was boredom. >> And I think another one was boredom. >> Really? And you basically are King David >> Really? And you basically are King David >> Really? And you basically are King David at the time when kings normally go to at the time when kings normally go to at the time when kings normally go to war. war. war. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> You're on the palace roof having a nap. >> You're on the palace roof having a nap. >> You're on the palace roof having a nap. You're like, I got nothing to do today. You're like, I got nothing to do today. You're like, I got nothing to do today. Right. Right. Right. >> You spy something, you see a desire, you >> You spy something, you see a desire, you >> You spy something, you see a desire, you take take take >> it. It's uh it's really fascinating. I >> it. It's uh it's really fascinating. I >> it. It's uh it's really fascinating. I think it's it's such a think it's it's such a think it's it's such a it's such a question of our age and one it's such a question of our age and one it's such a question of our age and one that's really important to ask and that's really important to ask and that's really important to ask and rather than point the fingers to look rather than point the fingers to look rather than point the fingers to look inside and go, what is it in me? You inside and go, what is it in me? You inside and go, what is it in me? You know, another one I've heard, I don't know, another one I've heard, I don't know, another one I've heard, I don't know whether you've seen this in your know whether you've seen this in your know whether you've seen this in your work, but um my my counselor, Dr. C, work, but um my my counselor, Dr. C, work, but um my my counselor, Dr. C, who's been on the show, he calls them who's been on the show, he calls them who's been on the show, he calls them wingmen. Um basically, the failure to wingmen. Um basically, the failure to wingmen. Um basically, the failure to really be known really be known really be known >> by somebody other than your spouse and >> by somebody other than your spouse and >> by somebody other than your spouse and your dog. your dog. your dog. >> John Townsend, who I know, you know, he >> John Townsend, who I know, you know, he >> John Townsend, who I know, you know, he would say the same thing, like most would say the same thing, like most would say the same thing, like most people are just lonely. people are just lonely. people are just lonely. >> Um and your wife and your dog don't >> Um and your wife and your dog don't >> Um and your wife and your dog don't count as your best friends. Like, count as your best friends. Like, count as your best friends. Like, >> it's funny, I had dinner with Townsen um >> it's funny, I had dinner with Townsen um >> it's funny, I had dinner with Townsen um two weeks ago. was in our church and two weeks ago. was in our church and two weeks ago. was in our church and >> he asked me at the very end of the >> he asked me at the very end of the >> he asked me at the very end of the dinner, "So, Eric, who do you have right dinner, "So, Eric, who do you have right dinner, "So, Eric, who do you have right now that you can go to? Who do you have now that you can go to? Who do you have now that you can go to? Who do you have that can hold you accountable? And when that can hold you accountable? And when that can hold you accountable? And when you're discouraged, who who can you you're discouraged, who who can you you're discouraged, who who can you call?" And I mean, he just was caring call?" And I mean, he just was caring call?" And I mean, he just was caring for me. Barbie's his wife, and she was for me. Barbie's his wife, and she was for me. Barbie's his wife, and she was there with Kay, my wife, and it was just there with Kay, my wife, and it was just there with Kay, my wife, and it was just an amazing dinner to have a godly man an amazing dinner to have a godly man an amazing dinner to have a godly man speaking into me that way. Um, and I am speaking into me that way. Um, and I am speaking into me that way. Um, and I am thankful that I have I have a group of thankful that I have I have a group of thankful that I have I have a group of elders that care deeply for me and and I

elders that care deeply for me and and I elders that care deeply for me and and I have godly friends that care deeply for have godly friends that care deeply for have godly friends that care deeply for me. So, I have the I have community. Um, me. So, I have the I have community. Um, me. So, I have the I have community. Um, if I blow it, it won't be cuz I don't if I blow it, it won't be cuz I don't if I blow it, it won't be cuz I don't have great people. It's going to be just have great people. It's going to be just have great people. It's going to be just the deep sinfulness of my of myself. And the deep sinfulness of my of myself. And the deep sinfulness of my of myself. And yeah, yeah, yeah, >> I I it would be it would be my utter >> I I it would be it would be my utter >> I I it would be it would be my utter failure to failure to failure to find my worth and identity in him, which find my worth and identity in him, which find my worth and identity in him, which it's one of the reasons I preach that so it's one of the reasons I preach that so it's one of the reasons I preach that so hard. Uh and I realize the longer I'm in hard. Uh and I realize the longer I'm in hard. Uh and I realize the longer I'm in ministry that often times we preach to ministry that often times we preach to ministry that often times we preach to our own sins, you know. Oh yeah. So, so our own sins, you know. Oh yeah. So, so our own sins, you know. Oh yeah. So, so I mean I'm I'm preaching rest in Jesus. I mean I'm I'm preaching rest in Jesus. I mean I'm I'm preaching rest in Jesus. I'm preaching that that um he's made you I'm preaching that that um he's made you I'm preaching that that um he's made you his. That's where your worth comes from. his. That's where your worth comes from. his. That's where your worth comes from. and the fact that you're free. You can and the fact that you're free. You can and the fact that you're free. You can now be aggressive, but don't find your now be aggressive, but don't find your now be aggressive, but don't find your your identity in the in the results. your identity in the in the results. your identity in the in the results. Find your identity and who and who God's Find your identity and who and who God's Find your identity and who and who God's declared you to be. And I, you know, I declared you to be. And I, you know, I declared you to be. And I, you know, I get off the platform and I'm like, man, get off the platform and I'm like, man, get off the platform and I'm like, man, that was Eric preaching to his own that was Eric preaching to his own that was Eric preaching to his own brokenness. That's what that was. You brokenness. That's what that was. You brokenness. That's what that was. You know, know, know, >> I think there's a lot of uh performers >> I think there's a lot of uh performers >> I think there's a lot of uh performers and achievers. That's definitely one.

and achievers. That's definitely one. and achievers. That's definitely one. It's not as simple as, "Oh, yes, I have It's not as simple as, "Oh, yes, I have It's not as simple as, "Oh, yes, I have one problem." No, I have a lot of one problem." No, I have a lot of one problem." No, I have a lot of problems. Yeah, problems. Yeah, problems. Yeah, >> it's complicated >> it's complicated >> it's complicated >> and one of them is definitely >> and one of them is definitely >> and one of them is definitely achievement. We were talking about that achievement. We were talking about that achievement. We were talking about that last night at small group and last night at small group and last night at small group and >> I just, >> I just, >> I just, >> you know, if I never published another >> you know, if I never published another >> you know, if I never published another book, if we never did another podcast book, if we never did another podcast book, if we never did another podcast episode, episode, episode, who am I? Do I really believe that I am who am I? Do I really believe that I am who am I? Do I really believe that I am a love child of God regardless of what I a love child of God regardless of what I a love child of God regardless of what I put out? I read Ronald Rohiser's book put out? I read Ronald Rohiser's book put out? I read Ronald Rohiser's book >> um uh Insane for the Light. That was so >> um uh Insane for the Light. That was so >> um uh Insane for the Light. That was so helpful. and he he made me John Mark helpful. and he he made me John Mark helpful. and he he made me John Mark Homer and I interviewed him together for Homer and I interviewed him together for Homer and I interviewed him together for this podcast which was fun because John this podcast which was fun because John this podcast which was fun because John Mark put me on to Roheiser and uh he's Mark put me on to Roheiser and uh he's Mark put me on to Roheiser and uh he's got this I was going through making some got this I was going through making some got this I was going through making some notes and he's got this really notes and he's got this really notes and he's got this really interesting point that he says interesting point that he says interesting point that he says achievements are often uh we think of achievements are often uh we think of achievements are often uh we think of them as as accomplishments points of them as as accomplishments points of them as as accomplishments points of pride for ourselves like you know think pride for ourselves like you know think pride for ourselves like you know think about in sports just won the World about in sports just won the World about in sports just won the World Series just won uh Stanley Cup final Series just won uh Stanley Cup final Series just won uh Stanley Cup final whatever that happens to be and most whatever that happens to be and most whatever that happens to be and most athletes will tell you even after an athletes will tell you even after an athletes will tell you even after an olymp Olympic gold the day after. It's olymp Olympic gold the day after. It's olymp Olympic gold the day after. It's just disappointing. It's a lifesty just disappointing. It's a lifesty just disappointing. It's a lifesty >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and most of us would be like, >> You know, and most of us would be like, >> You know, and most of us would be like, well, I'd like to win the lottery and well, I'd like to win the lottery and well, I'd like to win the lottery and find out or I'd like to win a find out or I'd like to win a find out or I'd like to win a championship and find out. That would be championship and find out. That would be championship and find out. That would be great. great. great. >> But we don't get that chance. But but he >> But we don't get that chance. But but he >> But we don't get that chance. But but he he had a reframing that I I wrote down he had a reframing that I I wrote down he had a reframing that I I wrote down and took notes and I found really and took notes and I found really and took notes and I found really helpful. He says, "It's not so much what helpful. He says, "It's not so much what helpful. He says, "It's not so much what you've accomplished for yourself. It's you've accomplished for yourself. It's you've accomplished for yourself. It's the impact of those achievements on the impact of those achievements on the impact of those achievements on other people and on the kingdom that is other people and on the kingdom that is other people and on the kingdom that is really what lasts. And I thought that really what lasts. And I thought that really what lasts. And I thought that was a really good framing. It's not that was a really good framing. It's not that was a really good framing. It's not that look at me, I wrote a book, look at me, look at me, I wrote a book, look at me, look at me, I wrote a book, look at me, I'm look at the size of my church, look I'm look at the size of my church, look I'm look at the size of my church, look at or whatever you happen to be taking at or whatever you happen to be taking at or whatever you happen to be taking >> pride in, how many downloads I have on >> pride in, how many downloads I have on >> pride in, how many downloads I have on this podcast. It's like, is this this podcast. It's like, is this this podcast. It's like, is this actually making an impact? Yeah. actually making an impact? Yeah. actually making an impact? Yeah. >> And to take satisfaction in perhaps how >> And to take satisfaction in perhaps how >> And to take satisfaction in perhaps how God is using it. And in my case, how God is using it. And in my case, how God is using it. And in my case, how utterly shocking it is that that I get utterly shocking it is that that I get utterly shocking it is that that I get to do this. to do this. to do this. >> Yeah. Like the most con I love it, man. >> Yeah. Like the most con I love it, man. >> Yeah. Like the most con I love it, man. The most convicting piece I read about The most convicting piece I read about The most convicting piece I read about that there there's two. I'll give you a that there there's two. I'll give you a that there there's two. I'll give you a c cultural one and then um c cultural one and then um c cultural one and then um Martin Louie Jones is a pastor from Martin Louie Jones is a pastor from Martin Louie Jones is a pastor from England back in the day, London. I I've England back in the day, London. I I've England back in the day, London. I I've quoted a bunch and his in his biography, quoted a bunch and his in his biography, quoted a bunch and his in his biography, I think I there's this nugget of truth I think I there's this nugget of truth I think I there's this nugget of truth on on overcoming this achievement desire on on overcoming this achievement desire on on overcoming this achievement desire even for those of us who are in even for those of us who are in even for those of us who are in ministry. Here's the here's the cultural ministry. Here's the here's the cultural ministry. Here's the here's the cultural piece. You mentioned Olympic athletes.

piece. You mentioned Olympic athletes. piece. You mentioned Olympic athletes. There's a I think it was in the the There's a I think it was in the the There's a I think it was in the the Atlantic. You can Atlantic. You can Atlantic. You can >> you can look on chat and find they'll >> you can look on chat and find they'll >> you can look on chat and find they'll link it for you. Um the article was link it for you. Um the article was link it for you. Um the article was titled the dark side of going for gold. titled the dark side of going for gold. titled the dark side of going for gold. And it was really a fascinating look at And it was really a fascinating look at And it was really a fascinating look at Olympic athletes when they get home from Olympic athletes when they get home from Olympic athletes when they get home from the Olympics and how that they they many the Olympics and how that they they many the Olympics and how that they they many of them will crash because they had this of them will crash because they had this of them will crash because they had this this pinnacle time in their life and this pinnacle time in their life and this pinnacle time in their life and they wonder if they'll ever have it they wonder if they'll ever have it they wonder if they'll ever have it again. And when you read the article, at again. And when you read the article, at again. And when you read the article, at least I was was really sad for these least I was was really sad for these least I was was really sad for these Olympic athletes because a lot of them Olympic athletes because a lot of them Olympic athletes because a lot of them carry your 18 to 22 years old. carry your 18 to 22 years old. carry your 18 to 22 years old. >> Yeah. Your life's over at 22. >> Yeah. Your life's over at 22. >> Yeah. Your life's over at 22. >> Yes. Imagine reach imagine peaking at >> Yes. Imagine reach imagine peaking at >> Yes. Imagine reach imagine peaking at such a young age or feeling the burden such a young age or feeling the burden such a young age or feeling the burden of that you've peaked and and then so of that you've peaked and and then so of that you've peaked and and then so they have all kinds of sports they have all kinds of sports they have all kinds of sports psychologists who who will sit with them psychologists who who will sit with them psychologists who who will sit with them and the whole goal of the sports and the whole goal of the sports and the whole goal of the sports psychologist which which I believe is psychologist which which I believe is psychologist which which I believe is noble but we have a better answer for noble but we have a better answer for noble but we have a better answer for those of us who are Christians. the those of us who are Christians. the those of us who are Christians. the sports psychologists really work hard to sports psychologists really work hard to sports psychologists really work hard to help them find an identity apart from help them find an identity apart from help them find an identity apart from the games like hey what's your business the games like hey what's your business the games like hey what's your business venture going to be um who are you going venture going to be um who are you going venture going to be um who are you going to be not you can't say Olympic athlete to be not you can't say Olympic athlete to be not you can't say Olympic athlete what are you going to be known for and what are you going to be known for and what are you going to be known for and and basically they walk away from the and basically they walk away from the and basically they walk away from the time with sports psychologist with a time with sports psychologist with a time with sports psychologist with a plan of how they're going to achieve a plan of how they're going to achieve a plan of how they're going to achieve a different identity and the reality for different identity and the reality for different identity and the reality for those of us who are Christ followers we those of us who are Christ followers we those of us who are Christ followers we don't have the pressure to achieve a don't have the pressure to achieve a don't have the pressure to achieve a different identity we we've been we've different identity we we've been we've different identity we we've been we've received a better identity that We're received a better identity that We're received a better identity that We're his, we're his, we're his son, we're his his, we're his, we're his son, we're his his, we're his, we're his son, we're his daughter, we're his priest, we're his daughter, we're his priest, we're his daughter, we're his priest, we're his bride. I mean, so so much incredible bride. I mean, so so much incredible bride. I mean, so so much incredible language in the in the scripture about language in the in the scripture about language in the in the scripture about who we are. So Martin Lu Jones, he's in

who we are. So Martin Lu Jones, he's in who we are. So Martin Lu Jones, he's in his final his final his final years or year of life. His biographer is years or year of life. His biographer is years or year of life. His biographer is asking him, "Your ministry is not what asking him, "Your ministry is not what asking him, "Your ministry is not what it used to be. Because of your health, it used to be. Because of your health, it used to be. Because of your health, you're unable to preach to as many you're unable to preach to as many you're unable to preach to as many people. Um h how are you processing?" people. Um h how are you processing?" people. Um h how are you processing?" And he just immediately according to his And he just immediately according to his And he just immediately according to his biographer quoted a verse, rejoice not biographer quoted a verse, rejoice not biographer quoted a verse, rejoice not that the spirit submit to you, but that the spirit submit to you, but that the spirit submit to you, but rejoice that that your name is written rejoice that that your name is written rejoice that that your name is written in heaven, which was a going back to in heaven, which was a going back to in heaven, which was a going back to when Jesus had sent the disciples out when Jesus had sent the disciples out when Jesus had sent the disciples out and they came back to Jesus and were all and they came back to Jesus and were all and they came back to Jesus and were all thrilled about all that they were doing thrilled about all that they were doing thrilled about all that they were doing for him that the demons submit in your for him that the demons submit in your for him that the demons submit in your name. All these great things are name. All these great things are name. All these great things are happening and and Jesus, it seems like happening and and Jesus, it seems like happening and and Jesus, it seems like is pouring cold water on them. that you is pouring cold water on them. that you is pouring cold water on them. that you would expect, at least when I'm first would expect, at least when I'm first would expect, at least when I'm first reading that, the first time I read that reading that, the first time I read that reading that, the first time I read that in the Gospels, that Jesus would be in the Gospels, that Jesus would be in the Gospels, that Jesus would be like, "Yeah, man. Isn't it awesome to go like, "Yeah, man. Isn't it awesome to go like, "Yeah, man. Isn't it awesome to go do stuff for me?" Yeah. It's like a do stuff for me?" Yeah. It's like a do stuff for me?" Yeah. It's like a mission trip debrief, you know, like mission trip debrief, you know, like mission trip debrief, you know, like boom, we did it. I'm so proud of you boom, we did it. I'm so proud of you boom, we did it. I'm so proud of you guys. But Jesus instead says, "Rejoice guys. But Jesus instead says, "Rejoice guys. But Jesus instead says, "Rejoice not that the demons submit to you, but not that the demons submit to you, but not that the demons submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in rejoice that your names are written in rejoice that your names are written in heaven." Essentially, heaven." Essentially, heaven." Essentially, >> don't be more excited about what you do >> don't be more excited about what you do >> don't be more excited about what you do for me than what I've done for you.

for me than what I've done for you. for me than what I've done for you. Don't be more excited about ministry Don't be more excited about ministry Don't be more excited about ministry through you than you are about my through you than you are about my through you than you are about my gracious work on your behalf and what gracious work on your behalf and what gracious work on your behalf and what I've already accomplished for you. And I I've already accomplished for you. And I I've already accomplished for you. And I it's been a that that I have thought it's been a that that I have thought it's been a that that I have thought about that uh section from his biography about that uh section from his biography about that uh section from his biography so many times like even at Easter so many times like even at Easter so many times like even at Easter services. I'll think services. I'll think services. I'll think >> am I more excited about what God is >> am I more excited about what God is >> am I more excited about what God is going to do in our church this weekend going to do in our church this weekend going to do in our church this weekend or am I more excited about what Jesus or am I more excited about what Jesus or am I more excited about what Jesus accomplished on the cross? Like what am accomplished on the cross? Like what am accomplished on the cross? Like what am I really more excited about? And and I really more excited about? And and I really more excited about? And and anyway, God's just used that passage to anyway, God's just used that passage to anyway, God's just used that passage to convict me and bring me back to him to convict me and bring me back to him to convict me and bring me back to him to not find my worth in even what he does not find my worth in even what he does not find my worth in even what he does through me, but more rejoice more that through me, but more rejoice more that through me, but more rejoice more that in what he's already done for me, that in what he's already done for me, that in what he's already done for me, that I'm already his. I'm already his. I'm already his. >> Those are good words. Really good words. >> Those are good words. Really good words. >> Those are good words. Really good words. Um, what has surprised you most about Um, what has surprised you most about Um, what has surprised you most about the leaders that you've seen toppled? the leaders that you've seen toppled? the leaders that you've seen toppled? Cuz you've you've seen some from afar. Cuz you've you've seen some from afar. Cuz you've you've seen some from afar. You've seen some up close You've seen some up close You've seen some up close >> and you know in your current work you >> and you know in your current work you >> and you know in your current work you use the metaphor of wet redwoods not use the metaphor of wet redwoods not use the metaphor of wet redwoods not particularly well rooted they can come particularly well rooted they can come particularly well rooted they can come down down down >> uh significantly when you see a leader >> uh significantly when you see a leader >> uh significantly when you see a leader topple what what has surprised you the topple what what has surprised you the topple what what has surprised you the most most most >> at this point I think I'm most surprised >> at this point I think I'm most surprised >> at this point I think I'm most surprised that I'm no longer surprised that I'm no longer surprised that I'm no longer surprised >> you know and and I'm assuming Carrie >> you know and and I'm assuming Carrie >> you know and and I'm assuming Carrie you're at that place where you're at that place where you're at that place where >> oh it's like yeah well there there's >> oh it's like yeah well there there's >> oh it's like yeah well there there's another one I don't even know how to another one I don't even know how to another one I don't even know how to process it process it process it >> right there it's so disorienting now. Um >> right there it's so disorienting now. Um >> right there it's so disorienting now. Um >> I mean still there's ones that I'm like,

>> I mean still there's ones that I'm like, >> I mean still there's ones that I'm like, "Oh, no. Not no way." But but but then "Oh, no. Not no way." But but but then "Oh, no. Not no way." But but but then >> it seems so common that it's no long it >> it seems so common that it's no long it >> it seems so common that it's no long it that's that's the saddest part to me that's that's the saddest part to me that's that's the saddest part to me from when I first got into into from when I first got into into from when I first got into into ministry, you know. Um it is painful to ministry, you know. Um it is painful to ministry, you know. Um it is painful to see heroes fall. see heroes fall. see heroes fall. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it is. It it it is really painful. >> it is. It it it is really painful. >> it is. It it it is really painful. I want to figure out what the poison in I want to figure out what the poison in I want to figure out what the poison in the water supply is. I've had a few the water supply is. I've had a few the water supply is. I've had a few conversations about this. I mean, 800 conversations about this. I mean, 800 conversations about this. I mean, 800 and some odd episodes into this show, and some odd episodes into this show, and some odd episodes into this show, we've talked to widows of pastors who've we've talked to widows of pastors who've we've talked to widows of pastors who've taken their own lives. We've talked to taken their own lives. We've talked to taken their own lives. We've talked to >> um you know, people on the other side of >> um you know, people on the other side of >> um you know, people on the other side of a fall. And I think we talk a lot about a fall. And I think we talk a lot about a fall. And I think we talk a lot about personal responsibility and we we own personal responsibility and we we own personal responsibility and we we own personal responsibility. Who was personal responsibility. Who was personal responsibility. Who was responsible for my burnout? Me. I was. I responsible for my burnout? Me. I was. I responsible for my burnout? Me. I was. I ran too hard, too fast, ignored all the ran too hard, too fast, ignored all the ran too hard, too fast, ignored all the warning signs, didn't get healthy enough warning signs, didn't get healthy enough warning signs, didn't get healthy enough fast enough. Didn't My character did not fast enough. Didn't My character did not fast enough. Didn't My character did not keep pace with the growth of our church.

keep pace with the growth of our church. keep pace with the growth of our church. And God mercifully stopped me, And God mercifully stopped me, And God mercifully stopped me, >> sent me into involuntary rehab, and I >> sent me into involuntary rehab, and I >> sent me into involuntary rehab, and I came out on the other side better so came out on the other side better so came out on the other side better so that at least my my character could keep that at least my my character could keep that at least my my character could keep growing with all the other things in my growing with all the other things in my growing with all the other things in my life that were growing. So, I'm really life that were growing. So, I'm really life that were growing. So, I'm really grateful for that. But um I kind of lost grateful for that. But um I kind of lost grateful for that. But um I kind of lost my train of thought there for a minute. my train of thought there for a minute. my train of thought there for a minute. Um I I I Um I I I Um I I I think that there Oh yeah, that there are think that there Oh yeah, that there are think that there Oh yeah, that there are systemic factors too. Like you have to systemic factors too. Like you have to systemic factors too. Like you have to take full responsibility, take full responsibility, take full responsibility, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But but as you say, oh you mean when I'm >> But but as you say, oh you mean when I'm >> But but as you say, oh you mean when I'm not thinking about Sunday, uh which is not thinking about Sunday, uh which is not thinking about Sunday, uh which is pretty much every week, right? Like pretty much every week, right? Like pretty much every week, right? Like there are systemic pressures in a there are systemic pressures in a there are systemic pressures in a growing church, a large church. And I growing church, a large church. And I growing church, a large church. And I wonder, have you seen some of those wonder, have you seen some of those wonder, have you seen some of those factors like um you know the relentless factors like um you know the relentless factors like um you know the relentless pressure of Sunday to Sunday? Because pressure of Sunday to Sunday? Because pressure of Sunday to Sunday? Because when I started, and you're not, you when I started, and you're not, you when I started, and you're not, you know, you're a few years younger than know, you're a few years younger than know, you're a few years younger than me, me, me, >> but in the '9s, the stakes were really >> but in the '9s, the stakes were really >> but in the '9s, the stakes were really low. I was preaching at three little low. I was preaching at three little low. I was preaching at three little churches 10 minutes from where I am churches 10 minutes from where I am churches 10 minutes from where I am right now at my house. Uh there were six right now at my house. Uh there were six right now at my house. Uh there were six people there, 14 people there, 30 people people there, 14 people there, 30 people people there, 14 people there, 30 people there when I started, when I was 30 there when I started, when I was 30 there when I started, when I was 30 years old, right out of seminary. And years old, right out of seminary. And years old, right out of seminary. And you know, if I had a bad week, I had a you know, if I had a bad week, I had a you know, if I had a bad week, I had a bad week. That was fine. There was no bad week. That was fine. There was no bad week. That was fine. There was no social media. It's like the competition social media. It's like the competition social media. It's like the competition was the church down the road and well, was the church down the road and well, was the church down the road and well, they'd been part of this church for a they'd been part of this church for a they'd been part of this church for a long time and there's another Sunday and long time and there's another Sunday and long time and there's another Sunday and then the church grows, social media then the church grows, social media then the church grows, social media comes along, you become multi-sight, comes along, you become multi-sight, comes along, you become multi-sight, you're on a screen like there are you're on a screen like there are you're on a screen like there are systemic pressures and the pressures of

systemic pressures and the pressures of systemic pressures and the pressures of leading a larger organization leading a larger organization leading a larger organization >> that I think a lot of leaders feel. Are >> that I think a lot of leaders feel. Are >> that I think a lot of leaders feel. Are any thoughts about the systemic any thoughts about the systemic any thoughts about the systemic pressures that are on church leaders pressures that are on church leaders pressures that are on church leaders today? Yeah, I I think it's such a wise today? Yeah, I I think it's such a wise today? Yeah, I I think it's such a wise question. I mean you did you did question. I mean you did you did question. I mean you did you did acknowledge which I agree with acknowledge which I agree with acknowledge which I agree with completely that there's you can't completely that there's you can't completely that there's you can't disregard the person the personal disregard the person the personal disregard the person the personal responsibility and just go to the responsibility and just go to the responsibility and just go to the systemic but we should totally ask is systemic but we should totally ask is systemic but we should totally ask is there is there things that that we can there is there things that that we can there is there things that that we can do that would limit this you know or do that would limit this you know or do that would limit this you know or reduce this and are there things we're reduce this and are there things we're reduce this and are there things we're doing that that sadly doing that that sadly doing that that sadly promote this you know or at least create promote this you know or at least create promote this you know or at least create the context where it it happens more I the context where it it happens more I the context where it it happens more I think we have to be careful a bit on the think we have to be careful a bit on the think we have to be careful a bit on the discussion and and I'll use two trees as discussion and and I'll use two trees as discussion and and I'll use two trees as an example. You know, California's got a an example. You know, California's got a an example. You know, California's got a bunch of famous trees. bunch of famous trees. bunch of famous trees. >> The tallest tree in the world is in >> The tallest tree in the world is in >> The tallest tree in the world is in California. It's called Hyperion, but California. It's called Hyperion, but California. It's called Hyperion, but but no one knows where it is. I mean, but no one knows where it is. I mean, but no one knows where it is. I mean, there's pictures of it and the ge not there's pictures of it and the ge not there's pictures of it and the ge not geologists, the scientists and those who geologists, the scientists and those who geologists, the scientists and those who who um study trees know where it is, but who um study trees know where it is, but who um study trees know where it is, but they've decided that the tree couldn't they've decided that the tree couldn't they've decided that the tree couldn't handle the public eye. Like it's too handle the public eye. Like it's too handle the public eye. Like it's too much pressure essentially. Um let's much pressure essentially. Um let's much pressure essentially. Um let's let's protect the leader. It's the let's protect the leader. It's the let's protect the leader. It's the leader in the forest. The leader can't leader in the forest. The leader can't leader in the forest. The leader can't handle the context and so let's not have handle the context and so let's not have handle the context and so let's not have any any pressure around. Now, you could any any pressure around. Now, you could any any pressure around. Now, you could say that the that the scientists are say that the that the scientists are say that the that the scientists are actually wise because there's other actually wise because there's other actually wise because there's other trees in California that people believe trees in California that people believe trees in California that people believe tourism killed. So, there's the the tourism killed. So, there's the the tourism killed. So, there's the the famous um tunnel tree. I mean, you've famous um tunnel tree. I mean, you've famous um tunnel tree. I mean, you've seen pictures where people drive their

seen pictures where people drive their seen pictures where people drive their cars through it. There was an article in cars through it. There was an article in cars through it. There was an article in the LA Times that the LA Times that the LA Times that >> that really uh tourism cut the heart out >> that really uh tourism cut the heart out >> that really uh tourism cut the heart out of the tree and tourism killed the tree. of the tree and tourism killed the tree. of the tree and tourism killed the tree. Now, some you could say that that was a, Now, some you could say that that was a, Now, some you could say that that was a, you know, a tree hugger argument, but you know, a tree hugger argument, but you know, a tree hugger argument, but the bottom line is the tree did topple the bottom line is the tree did topple the bottom line is the tree did topple and and and and and and surely people carving their initials in surely people carving their initials in surely people carving their initials in it and driving a car through it probably it and driving a car through it probably it and driving a car through it probably didn't help the tree. So, so those didn't help the tree. So, so those didn't help the tree. So, so those people are like, "Hey, let's let's not people are like, "Hey, let's let's not people are like, "Hey, let's let's not tell anyone where this really tall tree tell anyone where this really tall tree tell anyone where this really tall tree is because it can't handle the public is because it can't handle the public is because it can't handle the public eye, right?" eye, right?" eye, right?" >> And so, sometimes that's uh what leader >> And so, sometimes that's uh what leader >> And so, sometimes that's uh what leader what can be said about leaders. Can can what can be said about leaders. Can can what can be said about leaders. Can can leaders actually handle this? Have we leaders actually handle this? Have we leaders actually handle this? Have we built a context in the modern American built a context in the modern American built a context in the modern American church where it's too much for one church where it's too much for one church where it's too much for one person or um the you you mentioned pace person or um the you you mentioned pace person or um the you you mentioned pace already Carrie or the the the breath of already Carrie or the the the breath of already Carrie or the the the breath of responsibility. So I get it. I mean, and responsibility. So I get it. I mean, and responsibility. So I get it. I mean, and I if you look at those two trees, you'd I if you look at those two trees, you'd I if you look at those two trees, you'd say if Hyperion continues to stand, um, say if Hyperion continues to stand, um, say if Hyperion continues to stand, um, then then let's just never publicize then then let's just never publicize then then let's just never publicize where, you know, like let's not put where, you know, like let's not put where, you know, like let's not put leaders in the public spotlight would be leaders in the public spotlight would be leaders in the public spotlight would be the would be the implication. Now, from the would be the implication. Now, from the would be the implication. Now, from a tree perspective, there are there are a tree perspective, there are there are a tree perspective, there are there are also amazing trees in California that also amazing trees in California that also amazing trees in California that are wellknown, like the lone cypress are wellknown, like the lone cypress are wellknown, like the lone cypress along the famous Pebble Beach Drive. It along the famous Pebble Beach Drive. It along the famous Pebble Beach Drive. It it's been standing for 250 plus years, it's been standing for 250 plus years, it's been standing for 250 plus years, and people take pictures in front of it and people take pictures in front of it and people take pictures in front of it all the time. So, not every tree in all the time. So, not every tree in all the time. So, not every tree in public eye falls, right? Just like not public eye falls, right? Just like not public eye falls, right? Just like not every leader in the public eye falls.

every leader in the public eye falls. every leader in the public eye falls. >> But if you go biblical and you actually >> But if you go biblical and you actually >> But if you go biblical and you actually still use the whole concept of a tree, still use the whole concept of a tree, still use the whole concept of a tree, you look at Psalm 1, how happy is he who you look at Psalm 1, how happy is he who you look at Psalm 1, how happy is he who doesn't walk in the counsel of the doesn't walk in the counsel of the doesn't walk in the counsel of the wicked, stand in the way of sinners. His wicked, stand in the way of sinners. His wicked, stand in the way of sinners. His delight is in the law of the Lord. He's delight is in the law of the Lord. He's delight is in the law of the Lord. He's like a tree planted by streams, like a tree planted by streams, like a tree planted by streams, producing fruit. I mean, this beautiful producing fruit. I mean, this beautiful producing fruit. I mean, this beautiful psalm, Psalm 1. But the the antidote to psalm, Psalm 1. But the the antidote to psalm, Psalm 1. But the the antidote to falling in Psalm one isn't protection. falling in Psalm one isn't protection. falling in Psalm one isn't protection. Like, let's put a whole lot of barriers Like, let's put a whole lot of barriers Like, let's put a whole lot of barriers around the tree, around the tree, around the tree, >> right? It's it's transformation. It's >> right? It's it's transformation. It's >> right? It's it's transformation. It's that that that we delight in the law of that that that we delight in the law of that that that we delight in the law of the Lord. It's it's not that we're the Lord. It's it's not that we're the Lord. It's it's not that we're fixing we're doing a whole lot of things fixing we're doing a whole lot of things fixing we're doing a whole lot of things on the outside to protect the leader. on the outside to protect the leader. on the outside to protect the leader. It's that the leader is being It's that the leader is being It's that the leader is being transformed by the spirit, by the word. transformed by the spirit, by the word. transformed by the spirit, by the word. >> So, >> So, >> So, am I against having the conversation, am I against having the conversation, am I against having the conversation, hey, what do we put around a leader? Not hey, what do we put around a leader? Not hey, what do we put around a leader? Not not at all. But let's not forget that not at all. But let's not forget that not at all. But let's not forget that the religious leaders and then that the religious leaders and then that the religious leaders and then that Jesus was constantly butting heads with Jesus was constantly butting heads with Jesus was constantly butting heads with the Pharisees were all about the the Pharisees were all about the the Pharisees were all about the external things surrounding people. external things surrounding people. external things surrounding people. >> They had so many fences around there.

>> They had so many fences around there. >> They had so many fences around there. >> Yeah. So many fences. Yeah. They would >> Yeah. So many fences. Yeah. They would >> Yeah. So many fences. Yeah. They would totally have been the guys like, "Let's totally have been the guys like, "Let's totally have been the guys like, "Let's not let anybody see Hyperion. Here's all not let anybody see Hyperion. Here's all not let anybody see Hyperion. Here's all the rules you have to put around the rules you have to put around the rules you have to put around Hyperion, the tallest tree." When really Hyperion, the tallest tree." When really Hyperion, the tallest tree." When really what what what sustains us is the inward what what what sustains us is the inward what what what sustains us is the inward work of the spirit of God, the inward work of the spirit of God, the inward work of the spirit of God, the inward work. But that's a long setup for still work. But that's a long setup for still work. But that's a long setup for still wanting to honor the question and wanting to honor the question and wanting to honor the question and thinking it's a wise question. Um, yeah. thinking it's a wise question. Um, yeah. thinking it's a wise question. Um, yeah. What what is it about our current What what is it about our current What what is it about our current context that would would help leaders context that would would help leaders context that would would help leaders fall? fall? fall? Carrie, I my my perspective is more than Carrie, I my my perspective is more than Carrie, I my my perspective is more than it's the pressure, it's the isolation. it's the pressure, it's the isolation. it's the pressure, it's the isolation. And the reason I say that is because for And the reason I say that is because for And the reason I say that is because for for for for for for for leaders who who have great vision, if leaders who who have great vision, if leaders who who have great vision, if they were in another context, they're they were in another context, they're they were in another context, they're going to have great vision for that going to have great vision for that going to have great vision for that context. Like that's just who God's context. Like that's just who God's context. Like that's just who God's wired that person to be. Whether they're wired that person to be. Whether they're wired that person to be. Whether they're in ministry or they're in a in a in ministry or they're in a in a in ministry or they're in a in a marketplace. But um we know and and we marketplace. But um we know and and we marketplace. But um we know and and we know you mentioned David in 2 Samuel 11.

know you mentioned David in 2 Samuel 11. know you mentioned David in 2 Samuel 11. Kings go off to war. He stays behind. Kings go off to war. He stays behind. Kings go off to war. He stays behind. He's completely isolated. He had sent He's completely isolated. He had sent He's completely isolated. He had sent Joab who would have held him accountable Joab who would have held him accountable Joab who would have held him accountable who would who would not have who not who would who would not have who not who would who would not have who not would have not gone and asked for would have not gone and asked for would have not gone and asked for Bashibba to come who would who would Bashibba to come who would who would Bashibba to come who would who would have said David you can't do that that's have said David you can't do that that's have said David you can't do that that's the wife of Uriah one of your men um he the wife of Uriah one of your men um he the wife of Uriah one of your men um he was isolated and what is it about local was isolated and what is it about local was isolated and what is it about local church ministry that causes some people church ministry that causes some people church ministry that causes some people to be isolated and I think that is that to be isolated and I think that is that to be isolated and I think that is that is like does a pastor have elders that is like does a pastor have elders that is like does a pastor have elders that the pastor can talk to you know does the the pastor can talk to you know does the the pastor can talk to you know does the pastor have people who really want to pastor have people who really want to pastor have people who really want to see that that that that pastor's family see that that that that pastor's family see that that that that pastor's family taken care of and thrive. Um, or is the taken care of and thrive. Um, or is the taken care of and thrive. Um, or is the pastor viewed as just this hired person pastor viewed as just this hired person pastor viewed as just this hired person that we're going to try to get the most that we're going to try to get the most that we're going to try to get the most out of and we don't we don't care care out of and we don't we don't care care out of and we don't we don't care care about that person's health? We don't about that person's health? We don't about that person's health? We don't care about their spiritual health, their care about their spiritual health, their care about their spiritual health, their physical health. I I think that's a physical health. I I think that's a physical health. I I think that's a that's a system to really look at. You that's a system to really look at. You that's a system to really look at. You know, oftentimes it's and I'm not trying know, oftentimes it's and I'm not trying know, oftentimes it's and I'm not trying to take responsibility off of the to take responsibility off of the to take responsibility off of the pastors, but oftentimes it's it's the pastors, but oftentimes it's it's the pastors, but oftentimes it's it's the conversation is what why didn't the conversation is what why didn't the conversation is what why didn't the pastor have this around him? And I I'd pastor have this around him? And I I'd pastor have this around him? And I I'd say, well, can we ask why the church say, well, can we ask why the church say, well, can we ask why the church didn't put that around around the didn't put that around around the didn't put that around around the pastor?

pastor? pastor? >> That's a great question. So, >> That's a great question. So, >> That's a great question. So, systemically, systemically, systemically, the church has a role to play, not just the church has a role to play, not just the church has a role to play, not just the pastor, him or herself. the pastor, him or herself. the pastor, him or herself. >> But, but that's in the that's in the >> But, but that's in the that's in the >> But, but that's in the that's in the systemic part. We're I'm not I'm with systemic part. We're I'm not I'm with systemic part. We're I'm not I'm with you. I'm not at all the personal you. I'm not at all the personal you. I'm not at all the personal responsibility. Don't Don't blame. responsibility. Don't Don't blame. responsibility. Don't Don't blame. >> That's really good. >> That's really good. >> That's really good. >> Yeah. To the pastor, I'm saying it's on >> Yeah. To the pastor, I'm saying it's on >> Yeah. To the pastor, I'm saying it's on you to repent. It's on you to constantly you to repent. It's on you to constantly you to repent. It's on you to constantly come back to Jesus. It's on you to be come back to Jesus. It's on you to be come back to Jesus. It's on you to be healthy. Even if nobody is challenging healthy. Even if nobody is challenging healthy. Even if nobody is challenging you to be healthy, it you got to have you to be healthy, it you got to have you to be healthy, it you got to have responsibility. But if we're going to responsibility. But if we're going to responsibility. But if we're going to have a systemic conversation, I'd say, have a systemic conversation, I'd say, have a systemic conversation, I'd say, how did how is the church set up to how did how is the church set up to how did how is the church set up to where the pastor, not just the senior where the pastor, not just the senior where the pastor, not just the senior pastor, but the pastors are encouraged pastor, but the pastors are encouraged pastor, but the pastors are encouraged to be healthy, where they're well taken to be healthy, where they're well taken to be healthy, where they're well taken care of, where their family is honored, care of, where their family is honored, care of, where their family is honored, where and I'm not trying to swing to where and I'm not trying to swing to where and I'm not trying to swing to honor culture where they walk in the honor culture where they walk in the honor culture where they walk in the room and everybody stands up and room and everybody stands up and room and everybody stands up and applaud. I'm not talking about that, but applaud. I'm not talking about that, but applaud. I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about we want this family to I'm talking about we want this family to I'm talking about we want this family to enjoy living in this city. We we we want enjoy living in this city. We we we want enjoy living in this city. We we we want we want this team this team to be cared we want this team this team to be cared we want this team this team to be cared for. I think one of the things I've for. I think one of the things I've for. I think one of the things I've really learned over the last 20 years really learned over the last 20 years really learned over the last 20 years and had to keep learning is the power of and had to keep learning is the power of and had to keep learning is the power of the word no. And um I've had Dave the word no. And um I've had Dave the word no. And um I've had Dave Ferguson on here. Dave's like, "You got Ferguson on here. Dave's like, "You got Ferguson on here. Dave's like, "You got to say yes more often." I'm like, "Okay, to say yes more often." I'm like, "Okay, to say yes more often." I'm like, "Okay, fair enough, Dave. That's good." And fair enough, Dave. That's good." And fair enough, Dave. That's good." And you've had a good life. But you've had a good life. But you've had a good life. But >> he's awesome for me.

>> he's awesome for me. >> he's awesome for me. >> The key to longevity is learning how to >> The key to longevity is learning how to >> The key to longevity is learning how to say no because you have so many say no because you have so many say no because you have so many opportunities coming your way. opportunities coming your way. opportunities coming your way. >> You know, the problems with needs-based >> You know, the problems with needs-based >> You know, the problems with needs-based ministry is there's no end to human ministry is there's no end to human ministry is there's no end to human need. And how many locations does need. And how many locations does need. And how many locations does Mariners have now? Mariners have now? Mariners have now? >> 12. >> 12. >> 12. >> 12. 12 locations. Tens of thousands of >> 12. 12 locations. Tens of thousands of >> 12. 12 locations. Tens of thousands of people every single weekend. Your your people every single weekend. Your your people every single weekend. Your your ability to say no must have scaled with ability to say no must have scaled with ability to say no must have scaled with the level of responsibility you've been the level of responsibility you've been the level of responsibility you've been entrusted with. entrusted with. entrusted with. >> Am I right on that? >> Am I right on that? >> Am I right on that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's it's it but it's um >> Yeah. And it's it's it but it's um >> Yeah. And it's it's it but it's um it has to go simultaneously it has to go simultaneously it has to go simultaneously with ensuring that we have great systems with ensuring that we have great systems with ensuring that we have great systems to be sure that people are cared for and to be sure that people are cared for and to be sure that people are cared for and that we have an expanding team and that we have an expanding team and that we have an expanding team and expanding volunteers where people are expanding volunteers where people are expanding volunteers where people are cared for. So it's not um it's not about cared for. So it's not um it's not about cared for. So it's not um it's not about everything happening through one leader. everything happening through one leader. everything happening through one leader. It's about being sure that people are It's about being sure that people are It's about being sure that people are people are cared for. So I think if you people are cared for. So I think if you people are cared for. So I think if you say no, you you have to simultaneously say no, you you have to simultaneously say no, you you have to simultaneously be looking at how are we building be looking at how are we building be looking at how are we building structures to where people receive care.

structures to where people receive care. structures to where people receive care. >> But I imagine that there are probably um >> But I imagine that there are probably um >> But I imagine that there are probably um there's definitely competition for your there's definitely competition for your there's definitely competition for your time. time. time. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> More more people would love your time. >> More more people would love your time. >> More more people would love your time. And I talk to a lot of churches and the And I talk to a lot of churches and the And I talk to a lot of churches and the problem is I don't want to say it's easy problem is I don't want to say it's easy problem is I don't want to say it's easy to lead a church mariner size, but when to lead a church mariner size, but when to lead a church mariner size, but when there's only a hundred people at church there's only a hundred people at church there's only a hundred people at church and everybody wants a little piece of and everybody wants a little piece of and everybody wants a little piece of you, you know, that side of church life you, you know, that side of church life you, you know, that side of church life as well. That can feel overwhelming. as well. That can feel overwhelming. as well. That can feel overwhelming. >> You know, divide me up to 100, there's >> You know, divide me up to 100, there's >> You know, divide me up to 100, there's nothing left. So, and I was in a meeting nothing left. So, and I was in a meeting nothing left. So, and I was in a meeting yesterday with my assistant and she yesterday with my assistant and she yesterday with my assistant and she goes, "Okay, got a lot of requests that goes, "Okay, got a lot of requests that goes, "Okay, got a lot of requests that came in. They're all great. You're going came in. They're all great. You're going came in. They're all great. You're going to want to say yes to all of them and to want to say yes to all of them and to want to say yes to all of them and you can't do all of them. Just so you you can't do all of them. Just so you you can't do all of them. Just so you know, Carrie, know, Carrie, know, Carrie, we're we're going to have to say no we're we're going to have to say no we're we're going to have to say no today. And so we went through the list today. And so we went through the list today. And so we went through the list and I did say no to some of the requests and I did say no to some of the requests and I did say no to some of the requests that came in, but that's what gives me that came in, but that's what gives me that came in, but that's what gives me the margin to have eight hours of sleep. the margin to have eight hours of sleep. the margin to have eight hours of sleep. That would that's what gives me the That would that's what gives me the That would that's what gives me the margin to get on my bike, get in the margin to get on my bike, get in the margin to get on my bike, get in the gym, uh to build friendships. I went for gym, uh to build friendships. I went for gym, uh to build friendships. I went for breakfast with some guys this morning to breakfast with some guys this morning to breakfast with some guys this morning to um you know have a hobby and have a life um you know have a hobby and have a life um you know have a hobby and have a life and and and >> and not run at 1,000 miles an hour 7 >> and not run at 1,000 miles an hour 7 >> and not run at 1,000 miles an hour 7 days a week which got me almost to days a week which got me almost to days a week which got me almost to roadkill status 20 years ago. I'm just roadkill status 20 years ago. I'm just roadkill status 20 years ago. I'm just wondering what are some of the the wondering what are some of the the wondering what are some of the the strategic nos or like nah we're going to strategic nos or like nah we're going to strategic nos or like nah we're going to do that systemically?

do that systemically? do that systemically? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um that you've had to navigate over the >> Um that you've had to navigate over the >> Um that you've had to navigate over the years. years. years. >> Um that's good. And I want to ask you a >> Um that's good. And I want to ask you a >> Um that's good. And I want to ask you a follow-up question. I think the audience follow-up question. I think the audience follow-up question. I think the audience would would enjoy this and I want to would would enjoy this and I want to would would enjoy this and I want to learn from you on this. So your learn from you on this. So your learn from you on this. So your assistant brings all the all the assistant brings all the all the assistant brings all the all the requests and she lets you know, hey, requests and she lets you know, hey, requests and she lets you know, hey, we're going to there's no way you're we're going to there's no way you're we're going to there's no way you're doing all these, Gary. doing all these, Gary. doing all these, Gary. >> Um, you're going to have to say no. >> Um, you're going to have to say no. >> Um, you're going to have to say no. >> Did every request get to you or is there >> Did every request get to you or is there >> Did every request get to you or is there a filter which there was already ones a filter which there was already ones a filter which there was already ones that were said no? that were said no? that were said no? >> Um, was speaking I think everything gets >> Um, was speaking I think everything gets >> Um, was speaking I think everything gets to me. to me. to me. >> Okay. Sometimes it's uh it's like, okay, >> Okay. Sometimes it's uh it's like, okay, >> Okay. Sometimes it's uh it's like, okay, this came in. I just just in case this this came in. I just just in case this this came in. I just just in case this is a good friend from college or is a good friend from college or is a good friend from college or something like that. I just want you to something like that. I just want you to something like that. I just want you to be aware of it be aware of it be aware of it >> with this show, with the podcast. >> with this show, with the podcast. >> with this show, with the podcast. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I don't think I see 98% of them. Okay. >> I don't think I see 98% of them. Okay. >> I don't think I see 98% of them. Okay. We we get pitched We we get pitched We we get pitched >> every single day from a million >> every single day from a million >> every single day from a million different directions. Y different directions. Y different directions. Y >> and uh I have a really good team that >> and uh I have a really good team that >> and uh I have a really good team that kind of vets through everything and then kind of vets through everything and then kind of vets through everything and then >> a few come up to me. Um, for the most >> a few come up to me. Um, for the most >> a few come up to me. Um, for the most part these days I'm, you know, it will part these days I'm, you know, it will part these days I'm, you know, it will be a little bit of inbound and then I'll be a little bit of inbound and then I'll be a little bit of inbound and then I'll be like, I'd really love to have a be like, I'd really love to have a be like, I'd really love to have a conversation with so- and so. Can we get conversation with so- and so. Can we get conversation with so- and so. Can we get them?

them? them? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And so that's how it goes. Yeah. But we >> And so that's how it goes. Yeah. But we >> And so that's how it goes. Yeah. But we have a filter. have a filter. have a filter. >> I And the reason the reason I'm asking >> I And the reason the reason I'm asking >> I And the reason the reason I'm asking is this because that's that's part of my is this because that's that's part of my is this because that's that's part of my part of my answer. I'm I'm always part of my answer. I'm I'm always part of my answer. I'm I'm always looking for how do I operationalize? looking for how do I operationalize? looking for how do I operationalize? How do we preddecide How do we preddecide How do we preddecide so that we aren't in the moment of chaos so that we aren't in the moment of chaos so that we aren't in the moment of chaos making all these decisions? And so what making all these decisions? And so what making all these decisions? And so what what are filters? Um when it comes to what are filters? Um when it comes to what are filters? Um when it comes to time to where time to where time to where so if it's like, hey, let's wait to see so if it's like, hey, let's wait to see so if it's like, hey, let's wait to see if Eric can meet this person's needs. I if Eric can meet this person's needs. I if Eric can meet this person's needs. I mean, it it may be it may be a week mean, it it may be it may be a week mean, it it may be it may be a week before Amy, my assistant, and I are are before Amy, my assistant, and I are are before Amy, my assistant, and I are are sitting down. We actually are serving sitting down. We actually are serving sitting down. We actually are serving the person better if we if we know real the person better if we if we know real the person better if we if we know real quickly this person actually is going to quickly this person actually is going to quickly this person actually is going to get routed to this person to have their get routed to this person to have their get routed to this person to have their needs met, to be cared for. So the pre needs met, to be cared for. So the pre needs met, to be cared for. So the pre doing being doing preddeciding Carrie doing being doing preddeciding Carrie doing being doing preddeciding Carrie has helped has helped me a lot. And then has helped has helped me a lot. And then has helped has helped me a lot. And then if if um I continually are getting some if if um I continually are getting some if if um I continually are getting some of the same um requests that are also of the same um requests that are also of the same um requests that are also causing delay in communication, I then causing delay in communication, I then causing delay in communication, I then ask, okay, what what has not been clear ask, okay, what what has not been clear ask, okay, what what has not been clear so we can put a system in place that for so we can put a system in place that for so we can put a system in place that for the sake of the people. It's not just the sake of the people. It's not just the sake of the people. It's not just for the sake of me, but it's for the for the sake of me, but it's for the for the sake of me, but it's for the sake of people. Which is similar to when sake of people. Which is similar to when sake of people. Which is similar to when Jethro went to Moses. He said, "Listen, Jethro went to Moses. He said, "Listen, Jethro went to Moses. He said, "Listen, you're not only you're going to wear you're not only you're going to wear you're not only you're going to wear yourself out, but the people are they're yourself out, but the people are they're yourself out, but the people are they're going to be frustrated.

going to be frustrated. going to be frustrated. >> You're going to exhaust everybody." >> You're going to exhaust everybody." >> You're going to exhaust everybody." >> Yeah. No one's going to like this. So, >> Yeah. No one's going to like this. So, >> Yeah. No one's going to like this. So, build a system that's not only good for build a system that's not only good for build a system that's not only good for the leader, but it's but it's really the leader, but it's but it's really the leader, but it's but it's really good for the people. Carrie, the the good for the people. Carrie, the the good for the people. Carrie, the the most challenging for me, it's still most challenging for me, it's still most challenging for me, it's still painful. I don't love this. Is um I've painful. I don't love this. Is um I've painful. I don't love this. Is um I've had to to to remove myself as the had to to to remove myself as the had to to to remove myself as the organization of our church has grown organization of our church has grown organization of our church has grown from some meetings that I used to be in from some meetings that I used to be in from some meetings that I used to be in or from some decisions that I used to be or from some decisions that I used to be or from some decisions that I used to be in. And in my mind, I wasn't removing in. And in my mind, I wasn't removing in. And in my mind, I wasn't removing myself from relationships. I was myself from relationships. I was myself from relationships. I was removing myself from meetings or from um removing myself from meetings or from um removing myself from meetings or from um or from conversations about decisions. or from conversations about decisions. or from conversations about decisions. But because people were in those But because people were in those But because people were in those meetings and people were around the meetings and people were around the meetings and people were around the table for those decisions, it can be table for those decisions, it can be table for those decisions, it can be felt as I'm removing myself from from felt as I'm removing myself from from felt as I'm removing myself from from people from that those particular people from that those particular people from that those particular people. Um as our church has grown, I people. Um as our church has grown, I people. Um as our church has grown, I I've I now have a smaller leadership I've I now have a smaller leadership I've I now have a smaller leadership team than I had when I first arrived. team than I had when I first arrived. team than I had when I first arrived. And that's that's normal. We we had And that's that's normal. We we had And that's that's normal. We we had stayed flat organizationally for longer stayed flat organizationally for longer stayed flat organizationally for longer than most churches, you know. Um I mean than most churches, you know. Um I mean than most churches, you know. Um I mean the church has grown from like 7,500 to the church has grown from like 7,500 to the church has grown from like 7,500 to 25,000. And so as the structures had to 25,000. And so as the structures had to 25,000. And so as the structures had to change and sometimes when the structure change and sometimes when the structure change and sometimes when the structure changes, there's probably not sometimes changes, there's probably not sometimes changes, there's probably not sometimes I mean probably every time. There's I mean probably every time. There's I mean probably every time. There's really awesome people who I don't think really awesome people who I don't think really awesome people who I don't think less of at all, but I'm just I don't less of at all, but I'm just I don't less of at all, but I'm just I don't think less of them at all. I love I I think less of them at all. I love I I think less of them at all. I love I I love them completely, but I'm but I'm no love them completely, but I'm but I'm no love them completely, but I'm but I'm no longer in the same meeting rhythms that longer in the same meeting rhythms that longer in the same meeting rhythms that I was before. And and the challenging I was before. And and the challenging I was before. And and the challenging thing for me as a leader is I I hate

thing for me as a leader is I I hate thing for me as a leader is I I hate feeling like um feeling like um feeling like um like I'm disappointing somebody. And I like I'm disappointing somebody. And I like I'm disappointing somebody. And I actually do miss the interactions. I do actually do miss the interactions. I do actually do miss the interactions. I do miss it. You know, I miss it. But but miss it. You know, I miss it. But but miss it. You know, I miss it. But but it's what's it's what's best for the it's what's it's what's best for the it's what's it's what's best for the overall because if it's all about my overall because if it's all about my overall because if it's all about my ability to be in to have time, I'm going ability to be in to have time, I'm going ability to be in to have time, I'm going to slow this thing down a ton. to slow this thing down a ton. to slow this thing down a ton. >> Well, you're going to slow down the >> Well, you're going to slow down the >> Well, you're going to slow down the organization. organization. organization. >> Yeah. Well, one one like real practical >> Yeah. Well, one one like real practical >> Yeah. Well, one one like real practical one is there was a time, Carrie, when I one is there was a time, Carrie, when I one is there was a time, Carrie, when I was the final interview for every was the final interview for every was the final interview for every employee coming into our onto our team. employee coming into our onto our team. employee coming into our onto our team. And I loved it. I mean, I I like got to And I loved it. I mean, I I like got to And I loved it. I mean, I I like got to hear the stories of people and and then hear the stories of people and and then hear the stories of people and and then I I would know people's names. I'm see I I would know people's names. I'm see I I would know people's names. I'm see him in the hallway and I'm and I I mean him in the hallway and I'm and I I mean him in the hallway and I'm and I I mean it would just speed up the level of it would just speed up the level of it would just speed up the level of connection with somebody to have a 30 to connection with somebody to have a 30 to connection with somebody to have a 30 to 45 minute meet. Man, I was slowing 45 minute meet. Man, I was slowing 45 minute meet. Man, I was slowing hiring down so much when we when we had hiring down so much when we when we had hiring down so much when we when we had moved to launching new congregations moved to launching new congregations moved to launching new congregations that if everyone had to get on my that if everyone had to get on my that if everyone had to get on my calendar, I mean, there were people who calendar, I mean, there were people who calendar, I mean, there were people who were in the the hiring pipeline, were in the the hiring pipeline, were in the the hiring pipeline, it was not it wasn't it wasn't I mean it it was not it wasn't it wasn't I mean it it was not it wasn't it wasn't I mean it wasn't right. I mean it so my desire to wasn't right. I mean it so my desire to wasn't right. I mean it so my desire to be personal was actually be personal was actually be personal was actually a loss to the to the person you know it a loss to the to the person you know it a loss to the to the person you know it wasn't really serving that person well wasn't really serving that person well wasn't really serving that person well it was really about me feeling like I it was really about me feeling like I it was really about me feeling like I was me I was uh caring for that person was me I was uh caring for that person was me I was uh caring for that person you know so some so sometimes um we we you know so some so sometimes um we we you know so some so sometimes um we we can actually be selfish even in our care can actually be selfish even in our care can actually be selfish even in our care you know you know you know >> that's such a good insight I I would >> that's such a good insight I I would >> that's such a good insight I I would love to know do you have any tips for love to know do you have any tips for love to know do you have any tips for leaders because I imagine there's

leaders because I imagine there's leaders because I imagine there's There's more than a few listening right There's more than a few listening right There's more than a few listening right now who are in that position where they now who are in that position where they now who are in that position where they realize, okay, we've grown to the level realize, okay, we've grown to the level realize, okay, we've grown to the level or we're now at the level where I got to or we're now at the level where I got to or we're now at the level where I got to remove myself from some of the people I remove myself from some of the people I remove myself from some of the people I started the church with when everybody started the church with when everybody started the church with when everybody directly reported to me. Now there's directly reported to me. Now there's directly reported to me. Now there's layers layers layers >> and I've been through that myself and it >> and I've been through that myself and it >> and I've been through that myself and it can feel very odd for the leader and can feel very odd for the leader and can feel very odd for the leader and very crushing for the person who no very crushing for the person who no very crushing for the person who no longer has facetime with you. What are longer has facetime with you. What are longer has facetime with you. What are what are some tips you would give what are some tips you would give what are some tips you would give leaders facing that on how to navigate leaders facing that on how to navigate leaders facing that on how to navigate that personally, keep the relationship that personally, keep the relationship that personally, keep the relationship alive, but deal with the reality that alive, but deal with the reality that alive, but deal with the reality that yeah, we're not going to be spending a yeah, we're not going to be spending a yeah, we're not going to be spending a couple hours together every week couple hours together every week couple hours together every week anymore. anymore. anymore. >> Man, I don't know if I've done it >> Man, I don't know if I've done it >> Man, I don't know if I've done it extremely well is because of the pain, extremely well is because of the pain, extremely well is because of the pain, you know, and sometimes the pain it's you know, and sometimes the pain it's you know, and sometimes the pain it's the pain to the to the leader. Um, the pain to the to the leader. Um, the pain to the to the leader. Um, how I've done it, Carrie, is I've how I've done it, Carrie, is I've how I've done it, Carrie, is I've waited, some probably think waited too waited, some probably think waited too waited, some probably think waited too long, but I wanted to to be absolutely long, but I wanted to to be absolutely long, but I wanted to to be absolutely clear. So, I didn't clear. So, I didn't clear. So, I didn't >> I didn't move twice. It's kind of like, >> I didn't move twice. It's kind of like, >> I didn't move twice. It's kind of like, you know, measured twice, cut once, you you know, measured twice, cut once, you you know, measured twice, cut once, you know. I wanted to be I wanted to be know. I wanted to be I wanted to be know. I wanted to be I wanted to be absolutely sure that this this new org absolutely sure that this this new org absolutely sure that this this new org structure is what we were going to go structure is what we were going to go structure is what we were going to go to, that it wasn't going to be 6 months to, that it wasn't going to be 6 months to, that it wasn't going to be 6 months later yet another reorg, you know? So, later yet another reorg, you know? So, later yet another reorg, you know? So, >> yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I've >> yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I've >> yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I've I've I think I think that's what's more I've I think I think that's what's more I've I think I think that's what's more exhausting to people is a the a lack of exhausting to people is a the a lack of exhausting to people is a the a lack of clarity. And so if there's just constant clarity. And so if there's just constant clarity. And so if there's just constant changes, there's a lack of clarity. I changes, there's a lack of clarity. I changes, there's a lack of clarity. I think clarity is a is a gift for people think clarity is a is a gift for people think clarity is a is a gift for people because they can then they can settle because they can then they can settle because they can then they can settle in, know their role, know what the

in, know their role, know what the in, know their role, know what the mission is. Here's who we are. We're mission is. Here's who we are. We're mission is. Here's who we are. We're moving. if it's constantly changing, moving. if it's constantly changing, moving. if it's constantly changing, they I I don't think they can give their they I I don't think they can give their they I I don't think they can give their best energy and their best mental effort best energy and their best mental effort best energy and their best mental effort because they're they they're spending because they're they they're spending because they're they they're spending some of percentage of their time some of percentage of their time some of percentage of their time wondering what's next. And so that that wondering what's next. And so that that wondering what's next. And so that that that's my my my my counsel is if you that's my my my my counsel is if you that's my my my my counsel is if you sense it, live with the tension for a sense it, live with the tension for a sense it, live with the tension for a while, talk to other leaders, not even while, talk to other leaders, not even while, talk to other leaders, not even in your own context, but others that you in your own context, but others that you in your own context, but others that you respect outside of your context. Pray, respect outside of your context. Pray, respect outside of your context. Pray, listen some more. Pray. Um and then you listen some more. Pray. Um and then you listen some more. Pray. Um and then you can One thing you can do that's can One thing you can do that's can One thing you can do that's practical and you you have to do it in a practical and you you have to do it in a practical and you you have to do it in a way that's not um so pronounced because way that's not um so pronounced because way that's not um so pronounced because everyone will know what you're thinking everyone will know what you're thinking everyone will know what you're thinking is you can test some things by giving a is you can test some things by giving a is you can test some things by giving a project to someone. Um hey I'm asking project to someone. Um hey I'm asking project to someone. Um hey I'm asking you to run this initiative because then you to run this initiative because then you to run this initiative because then you can see if if that person's able to you can see if if that person's able to you can see if if that person's able to rally people who don't report to her, rally people who don't report to her, rally people who don't report to her, don't report to him. Right. don't report to him. Right. don't report to him. Right. >> Um you can do a you can do a test >> Um you can do a you can do a test >> Um you can do a you can do a test project to to wade into it and then that project to to wade into it and then that project to to wade into it and then that allows that person to to build some more allows that person to to build some more allows that person to to build some more credibility for when the change does credibility for when the change does credibility for when the change does happen. But when you do that, you don't happen. But when you do that, you don't happen. But when you do that, you don't you don't don't promise the person you don't don't promise the person you don't don't promise the person you're going to do it because if you you're going to do it because if you you're going to do it because if you change your mind, change your mind, change your mind, >> then then I mean that's what causes more >> then then I mean that's what causes more >> then then I mean that's what causes more frustration, you know? So frustration, you know? So frustration, you know? So measure twice, cut once. when you see measure twice, cut once. when you see measure twice, cut once. when you see someone that used to be at your table someone that used to be at your table someone that used to be at your table who's not at your table anymore and you who's not at your table anymore and you who's not at your table anymore and you bump into them in the hall, bump into them in the hall, bump into them in the hall, >> you bump into them um you know at a >> you bump into them um you know at a >> you bump into them um you know at a shopping mall.

shopping mall. shopping mall. >> How do you inter relate to them? How >> How do you inter relate to them? How >> How do you inter relate to them? How what is that interaction like? From my what is that interaction like? From my what is that interaction like? From my perspective, I I love seeing them. And I perspective, I I love seeing them. And I perspective, I I love seeing them. And I >> I Carrie, I think I have heard from >> I Carrie, I think I have heard from >> I Carrie, I think I have heard from others more about how the relationship others more about how the relationship others more about how the relationship feels different than how I view the feels different than how I view the feels different than how I view the person. In other words, I don't view the person. In other words, I don't view the person. In other words, I don't view the person as less valuable to us at all. person as less valuable to us at all. person as less valuable to us at all. You know, uh definitely not less You know, uh definitely not less You know, uh definitely not less valuable to the kingdom and less valuable to the kingdom and less valuable to the kingdom and less valuable to the mission. I've just valuable to the mission. I've just valuable to the mission. I've just heard, hey, it's like you've heard, it heard, hey, it's like you've heard, it heard, hey, it's like you've heard, it was challenging for me to no longer be was challenging for me to no longer be was challenging for me to no longer be in that meeting or to not be um feeling in that meeting or to not be um feeling in that meeting or to not be um feeling like I was on that team. So, I I've like I was on that team. So, I I've like I was on that team. So, I I've heard that more from them than I've you heard that more from them than I've you heard that more from them than I've you know, than I've experienced, you know, know, than I've experienced, you know, know, than I've experienced, you know, honestly, I I'm like I'm surprised they honestly, I I'm like I'm surprised they honestly, I I'm like I'm surprised they missed that meeting. I mean, these missed that meeting. I mean, these missed that meeting. I mean, these meetings are they can be boring, you meetings are they can be boring, you meetings are they can be boring, you know? I mean, because I believe Gary, to know? I mean, because I believe Gary, to know? I mean, because I believe Gary, to be great, you have to not get bored at be great, you have to not get bored at be great, you have to not get bored at the basics. I know we were talking about the basics. I know we were talking about the basics. I know we were talking about that when it comes to character, but to that when it comes to character, but to that when it comes to character, but to me it comes to leadership, too. like me it comes to leadership, too. like me it comes to leadership, too. like we're going to keep doing the same thing we're going to keep doing the same thing we're going to keep doing the same thing over and over again and some of it's over and over again and some of it's over and over again and some of it's going to be just boring blocking and going to be just boring blocking and going to be just boring blocking and tackling, you know, and so I I'm tackling, you know, and so I I'm tackling, you know, and so I I'm surprised when people are like, "Man, I surprised when people are like, "Man, I surprised when people are like, "Man, I missed that meeting." I'm like, missed that meeting." I'm like, missed that meeting." I'm like, "Really?" I mean, it it's not this "Really?" I mean, it it's not this "Really?" I mean, it it's not this Sometimes people think of like the Sometimes people think of like the Sometimes people think of like the senior leadership team or the executive senior leadership team or the executive senior leadership team or the executive leadership team or directional, whatever leadership team or directional, whatever leadership team or directional, whatever term is used. Like it's some awesome term is used. Like it's some awesome term is used. Like it's some awesome thing you walk into and there's like thing you walk into and there's like thing you walk into and there's like smoke and it's always a dry erase board smoke and it's always a dry erase board smoke and it's always a dry erase board session um where there's some amazing session um where there's some amazing session um where there's some amazing new direction. Yeah, new direction. Yeah, new direction. Yeah, >> that is not I mean I don't want to

>> that is not I mean I don't want to >> that is not I mean I don't want to disappoint anybody but that's not the disappoint anybody but that's not the disappoint anybody but that's not the means I lead. It is it is just operating means I lead. It is it is just operating means I lead. It is it is just operating you know just doing the same thing over you know just doing the same thing over you know just doing the same thing over and over again for the glory of God. Um and over again for the glory of God. Um and over again for the glory of God. Um and then occasionally we'll have a you and then occasionally we'll have a you and then occasionally we'll have a you know a once a quarter meeting where know a once a quarter meeting where know a once a quarter meeting where we're thinking more future but a lot of we're thinking more future but a lot of we're thinking more future but a lot of it's just the grind you know. it's just the grind you know. it's just the grind you know. >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Um, you've got in your new >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Um, you've got in your new >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Um, you've got in your new book, The Rooted Leader, you got a story book, The Rooted Leader, you got a story book, The Rooted Leader, you got a story about Dan Kathy. I'd love for you to about Dan Kathy. I'd love for you to about Dan Kathy. I'd love for you to tell us that one. I really love Dan. I tell us that one. I really love Dan. I tell us that one. I really love Dan. I love the way Chick-fil-A leads. love the way Chick-fil-A leads. love the way Chick-fil-A leads. >> Oh, man. He's he's really impressive. >> Oh, man. He's he's really impressive. >> Oh, man. He's he's really impressive. Um, that their operation and and their Um, that their operation and and their Um, that their operation and and their leadership. So, he was out here at our leadership. So, he was out here at our leadership. So, he was out here at our church one time. Um, and then multiple church one time. Um, and then multiple church one time. Um, and then multiple members of his family, they'd come to members of his family, they'd come to members of his family, they'd come to they've come to services a couple times they've come to services a couple times they've come to services a couple times and always so encouraging. I mean, just and always so encouraging. I mean, just and always so encouraging. I mean, just amazing people. And then I I was joking amazing people. And then I I was joking amazing people. And then I I was joking with Dan that um basically with Dan that um basically with Dan that um basically my kids have financed, you know, so much my kids have financed, you know, so much my kids have financed, you know, so much of Chick-fil-A in Southern California of Chick-fil-A in Southern California of Chick-fil-A in Southern California because when they were in junior high, because when they were in junior high, because when they were in junior high, like that's all they wanted to eat, you like that's all they wanted to eat, you like that's all they wanted to eat, you know, and so we uh he did a video for my know, and so we uh he did a video for my know, and so we uh he did a video for my youngest daughter uh and then and then youngest daughter uh and then and then youngest daughter uh and then and then mailed her stuff. I mean, it was I was mailed her stuff. I mean, it was I was mailed her stuff. I mean, it was I was like, "What on earth? This is crazy.

like, "What on earth? This is crazy. like, "What on earth? This is crazy. He's so kind." And then I was at a He's so kind." And then I was at a He's so kind." And then I was at a conference and conference and conference and um the driver it was um it was Passion um the driver it was um it was Passion um the driver it was um it was Passion Conference. I took my oldest daughter Conference. I took my oldest daughter Conference. I took my oldest daughter Eden uh to Passion Conference and and Eden uh to Passion Conference and and Eden uh to Passion Conference and and there was um we were staying at a hotel there was um we were staying at a hotel there was um we were staying at a hotel and and Passion City Church had uh and and Passion City Church had uh and and Passion City Church had uh drivers that would, you know, drop you drivers that would, you know, drop you drivers that would, you know, drop you off for the conference and bring you off for the conference and bring you off for the conference and bring you back to the hotel. Volunteers like just back to the hotel. Volunteers like just back to the hotel. Volunteers like just I mean so so hospitable, so amazing. And I mean so so hospitable, so amazing. And I mean so so hospitable, so amazing. And one of the one of the the the guys who one of the one of the the the guys who one of the one of the the the guys who was driving leads the parking team of was driving leads the parking team of was driving leads the parking team of volunteers at his church. And he said volunteers at his church. And he said volunteers at his church. And he said that um it's a competition. We get there that um it's a competition. We get there that um it's a competition. We get there early and we try to um early and we try to um early and we try to um pick up all the trash in the parking lot pick up all the trash in the parking lot pick up all the trash in the parking lot before this one person arrives cuz before this one person arrives cuz before this one person arrives cuz there's one person who always parks the there's one person who always parks the there's one person who always parks the furthest away and picks up trash his furthest away and picks up trash his furthest away and picks up trash his entire way into church. I said, entire way into church. I said, entire way into church. I said, "Really?" I said, "You know who it is?" "Really?" I said, "You know who it is?" "Really?" I said, "You know who it is?" "Yeah, it's Dan Kathy." And so the that "Yeah, it's Dan Kathy." And so the that "Yeah, it's Dan Kathy." And so the that to me that's just a an amazing story of to me that's just a an amazing story of to me that's just a an amazing story of the the book servant leadership which the the book servant leadership which the the book servant leadership which came out in the in the 70s which was one came out in the in the 70s which was one came out in the in the 70s which was one of the first major popular leadership of the first major popular leadership of the first major popular leadership books and for those of us who are books and for those of us who are books and for those of us who are Christians we weren't surprised by the Christians we weren't surprised by the Christians we weren't surprised by the conclusion which is great leaders are conclusion which is great leaders are conclusion which is great leaders are servants because we know our our savior servants because we know our our savior servants because we know our our savior Jesus served us and and then we are to Jesus served us and and then we are to Jesus served us and and then we are to be his servants and we are to serve be his servants and we are to serve be his servants and we are to serve people. But in that book, Robert people. But in that book, Robert people. But in that book, Robert Greenleaf, who wrote it, he basically Greenleaf, who wrote it, he basically Greenleaf, who wrote it, he basically said there's a difference between said there's a difference between said there's a difference between someone who's a leader first and someone someone who's a leader first and someone someone who's a leader first and someone who's a servant first. And someone who's who's a servant first. And someone who's who's a servant first. And someone who's a leader first, they they will serve,

a leader first, they they will serve, a leader first, they they will serve, but only because it's like the activity but only because it's like the activity but only because it's like the activity they're supposed to do. And someone they're supposed to do. And someone they're supposed to do. And someone who's a servant first, they serve who's a servant first, they serve who's a servant first, they serve because it's their identity. Their because it's their identity. Their because it's their identity. Their identity is that of a servant. And to identity is that of a servant. And to identity is that of a servant. And to me, that's Dan Kathy. It's clearly his me, that's Dan Kathy. It's clearly his me, that's Dan Kathy. It's clearly his identity. He's not only having service identity. He's not only having service identity. He's not only having service as a core value in the company that he as a core value in the company that he as a core value in the company that he leads, he's parking furthest away at leads, he's parking furthest away at leads, he's parking furthest away at church and picking up trash on his way church and picking up trash on his way church and picking up trash on his way in because it's not just an activity, in because it's not just an activity, in because it's not just an activity, it's his identity. it's his identity. it's his identity. >> What he does springs out of who he is >> What he does springs out of who he is >> What he does springs out of who he is and fundamentally and fundamentally and fundamentally >> that's who he is. >> that's who he is. >> that's who he is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's so powerful. So it's things >> Yeah. That's so powerful. So it's things >> Yeah. That's so powerful. So it's things like servantthood, perseverance, like servantthood, perseverance, like servantthood, perseverance, conviction, vision, conviction, vision, conviction, vision, um that roots a leader, right? The um that roots a leader, right? The um that roots a leader, right? The positive attributes. What's what's one positive attributes. What's what's one positive attributes. What's what's one of the attributes that you outlined that of the attributes that you outlined that of the attributes that you outlined that has been most has been most has been most grounding for you? Yeah. So far in grounding for you? Yeah. So far in grounding for you? Yeah. So far in leadership leadership leadership >> and Carrie, just to um just to clarify >> and Carrie, just to um just to clarify >> and Carrie, just to um just to clarify and I I'll I'll answer in in the book and I I'll I'll answer in in the book and I I'll I'll answer in in the book The Rooted Leader, I I position those as The Rooted Leader, I I position those as The Rooted Leader, I I position those as the fruit. So, it's what you see on the the fruit. So, it's what you see on the the fruit. So, it's what you see on the outside, but beneath the surface are the outside, but beneath the surface are the outside, but beneath the surface are the roots that actually create that fruit.

roots that actually create that fruit. roots that actually create that fruit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, everybody wants the fruit. you know, >> So, everybody wants the fruit. you know, >> So, everybody wants the fruit. you know, you want the fruit of servantthood or a you want the fruit of servantthood or a you want the fruit of servantthood or a vision, vision, vision, >> but to get the fruit, you really have to >> but to get the fruit, you really have to >> but to get the fruit, you really have to go go deep down to the roots. And go go deep down to the roots. And go go deep down to the roots. And >> one that I that that I've struggled with >> one that I that that I've struggled with >> one that I that that I've struggled with and and I long for in my life and and and I long for in my life and and and I long for in my life and studying Nehemiah, so the book rooted studying Nehemiah, so the book rooted studying Nehemiah, so the book rooted leader is based on on Nehemiah's leader is based on on Nehemiah's leader is based on on Nehemiah's leadership journey has really challenged leadership journey has really challenged leadership journey has really challenged me and that's the fruit of perseverance. me and that's the fruit of perseverance. me and that's the fruit of perseverance. Um there's times where Carrie, I I feel Um there's times where Carrie, I I feel Um there's times where Carrie, I I feel like giving up and quitting. I I don't like giving up and quitting. I I don't like giving up and quitting. I I don't know if you've had this experience where know if you've had this experience where know if you've had this experience where you're in Southern California, there's you're in Southern California, there's you're in Southern California, there's people on the side of the road, their people on the side of the road, their people on the side of the road, their employees working for like a pizza place employees working for like a pizza place employees working for like a pizza place or a furniture place. They got those big or a furniture place. They got those big or a furniture place. They got those big signs and they're constantly twirling signs and they're constantly twirling signs and they're constantly twirling them. them. them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've been at at a red light and I've >> I've been at at a red light and I've >> I've been at at a red light and I've thought, I want that job. I want to quit thought, I want that job. I want to quit thought, I want that job. I want to quit what I'm doing. I want that job because what I'm doing. I want that job because what I'm doing. I want that job because I guarant in my head that guy is not I guarant in my head that guy is not I guarant in my head that guy is not going home thinking about his work. His going home thinking about his work. His going home thinking about his work. His work stays here. When he puts the sign work stays here. When he puts the sign work stays here. When he puts the sign down, he goes home and he's not thinking down, he goes home and he's not thinking down, he goes home and he's not thinking about it. And and I mean rarely do I not about it. And and I mean rarely do I not about it. And and I mean rarely do I not take work at least emotionally or take work at least emotionally or take work at least emotionally or mentally home. I mean it's really hard mentally home. I mean it's really hard mentally home. I mean it's really hard to not take it home.

to not take it home. to not take it home. >> I get it. >> I get it. >> I get it. >> And and so I I told Kay my wife one time >> And and so I I told Kay my wife one time >> And and so I I told Kay my wife one time we were watching that sign guy and I we were watching that sign guy and I we were watching that sign guy and I said that guy's awesome. I mean he was said that guy's awesome. I mean he was said that guy's awesome. I mean he was flipping it with great passion. He flipping it with great passion. He flipping it with great passion. He wasn't you know the guy leaning against wasn't you know the guy leaning against wasn't you know the guy leaning against the the the >> the 499 pizza today going going >> the 499 pizza today going going >> the 499 pizza today going going hardcore. And I'm like I I I I want hardcore. And I'm like I I I I want hardcore. And I'm like I I I I want that. I would I would go all out for the that. I would I would go all out for the that. I would I would go all out for the glory of God. I want that dude's job. glory of God. I want that dude's job. glory of God. I want that dude's job. And K's like, "Why?" I said, "Because And K's like, "Why?" I said, "Because And K's like, "Why?" I said, "Because because I could I could go for it and because I could I could go for it and because I could I could go for it and then leave it." And she said, "Baby, you then leave it." And she said, "Baby, you then leave it." And she said, "Baby, you would be the one at home practicing new would be the one at home practicing new would be the one at home practicing new moves with the sign." And I and I love moves with the sign." And I and I love moves with the sign." And I and I love that about you. I love that about you. that about you. I love that about you. that about you. I love that about you. And I'm like, "Baby, I love that you And I'm like, "Baby, I love that you And I'm like, "Baby, I love that you love it about me, but I don't always love it about me, but I don't always love it about me, but I don't always love it about me. I don't always love it love it about me. I don't always love it love it about me. I don't always love it about me. Sometimes I wish I could not about me. Sometimes I wish I could not about me. Sometimes I wish I could not have that that, you know, that passion. have that that, you know, that passion. have that that, you know, that passion. I wish I could leave the sign at work." I wish I could leave the sign at work." I wish I could leave the sign at work." Um, and so there's times I want to quit. Um, and so there's times I want to quit. Um, and so there's times I want to quit. Nehemiah could have clearly Nehemiah could have clearly Nehemiah could have clearly >> been tempted to quit. I mean, there's >> been tempted to quit. I mean, there's >> been tempted to quit. I mean, there's there's people who are on all sides that there's people who are on all sides that there's people who are on all sides that want him to stop building the wall. want him to stop building the wall. want him to stop building the wall. They're trying to get him off the wall. They're trying to get him off the wall. They're trying to get him off the wall. And then they start threatening his life And then they start threatening his life And then they start threatening his life and they start threatening that they're and they start threatening that they're and they start threatening that they're going to um attack the people, you know, going to um attack the people, you know, going to um attack the people, you know, I mean, physically attack the people.

I mean, physically attack the people. I mean, physically attack the people. And so Nehemiah in that in that chapter And so Nehemiah in that in that chapter And so Nehemiah in that in that chapter where he's being threatened with his where he's being threatened with his where he's being threatened with his life, there's this this paradox which is life, there's this this paradox which is life, there's this this paradox which is so powerful. He tells the people fight so powerful. He tells the people fight so powerful. He tells the people fight like arm yourselves and fight. That's like arm yourselves and fight. That's like arm yourselves and fight. That's early in the chapter. And then later in early in the chapter. And then later in early in the chapter. And then later in the chapter, he's he says, "Our God will the chapter, he's he says, "Our God will the chapter, he's he says, "Our God will fight for us." fight for us." fight for us." >> And so the the the paradox are the is >> And so the the the paradox are the is >> And so the the the paradox are the is the roots. You have to fight, Eric. You the roots. You have to fight, Eric. You the roots. You have to fight, Eric. You got to wake up and fight. Come on, man. got to wake up and fight. Come on, man. got to wake up and fight. Come on, man. Don't give up. Fight. But Eric, you can Don't give up. Fight. But Eric, you can Don't give up. Fight. But Eric, you can rest because your God is fighting for rest because your God is fighting for rest because your God is fighting for you. Fight. But realize you're not you. Fight. But realize you're not you. Fight. But realize you're not fighting alone. Your God is fighting for fighting alone. Your God is fighting for fighting alone. Your God is fighting for you. He's already fought for you. He you. He's already fought for you. He you. He's already fought for you. He already defeated sin and shame and the already defeated sin and shame and the already defeated sin and shame and the devil on the cross. He conquered the devil on the cross. He conquered the devil on the cross. He conquered the grave. Eric, yes. Fight. Don't give up. grave. Eric, yes. Fight. Don't give up. grave. Eric, yes. Fight. Don't give up. Come on, man. Fight. But Eric, he's Come on, man. Fight. But Eric, he's Come on, man. Fight. But Eric, he's fighting for you. You're not alone. fighting for you. You're not alone. fighting for you. You're not alone. You're not walking into that meeting You're not walking into that meeting You're not walking into that meeting alone. You're not walking into that alone. You're not walking into that alone. You're not walking into that challenge alone. He's fighting for you. challenge alone. He's fighting for you. challenge alone. He's fighting for you. So perseverance is the fruit, but the So perseverance is the fruit, but the So perseverance is the fruit, but the roots you you you have to do both. You roots you you you have to do both. You roots you you you have to do both. You have to fight and you have to trust that have to fight and you have to trust that have to fight and you have to trust that he's fighting for you. he's fighting for you. he's fighting for you. >> Wow. That's such a good word. And you >> Wow. That's such a good word. And you >> Wow. That's such a good word. And you know, just to be totally transparent, I know, just to be totally transparent, I know, just to be totally transparent, I used to have that thought a lot. Not I used to have that thought a lot. Not I used to have that thought a lot. Not I didn't want to be the sign guy didn't want to be the sign guy didn't want to be the sign guy >> when I was a lead pastor. I wanted to >> when I was a lead pastor. I wanted to >> when I was a lead pastor. I wanted to work in a warehouse and stack boxes.

work in a warehouse and stack boxes. work in a warehouse and stack boxes. >> Come on. Cuz you you know why? Cuz cuz >> Come on. Cuz you you know why? Cuz cuz >> Come on. Cuz you you know why? Cuz cuz you could see the work it's done. You you could see the work it's done. You you could see the work it's done. You could go and you're like like I did it. could go and you're like like I did it. could go and you're like like I did it. Look, there were no boxes and now Look, there were no boxes and now Look, there were no boxes and now there's 78 boxes. there's 78 boxes. there's 78 boxes. >> All the boxes and the boxes stayed put. >> All the boxes and the boxes stayed put. >> All the boxes and the boxes stayed put. I put them there and they didn't move. I put them there and they didn't move. I put them there and they didn't move. >> That was my like fantasy job. >> That was my like fantasy job. >> That was my like fantasy job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what's really weird? I I >> You know what's really weird? I I >> You know what's really weird? I I haven't thought about that in a long haven't thought about that in a long haven't thought about that in a long time. I don't think I've felt that over time. I don't think I've felt that over time. I don't think I've felt that over the last decade. Now that goes to the the last decade. Now that goes to the the last decade. Now that goes to the systemic thing I want to write about at systemic thing I want to write about at systemic thing I want to write about at some point in the future. some point in the future. some point in the future. >> Uh I have a heart for people who do >> Uh I have a heart for people who do >> Uh I have a heart for people who do that. But yeah, you know, you wanna you that. But yeah, you know, you wanna you that. But yeah, you know, you wanna you want to build a life you don't want to want to build a life you don't want to want to build a life you don't want to escape from. And how do you do that in escape from. And how do you do that in escape from. And how do you do that in the context of ministry? It's a great the context of ministry? It's a great the context of ministry? It's a great question, Eric. Anything else we haven't question, Eric. Anything else we haven't question, Eric. Anything else we haven't touched on that would be good to touch touched on that would be good to touch touched on that would be good to touch on today? on today? on today? >> Oh, man. Every time we talk, I I learn >> Oh, man. Every time we talk, I I learn >> Oh, man. Every time we talk, I I learn something. So, I mean, we we could talk something. So, I mean, we we could talk something. So, I mean, we we could talk for hours, but there's nothing nothing for hours, but there's nothing nothing for hours, but there's nothing nothing off the top of my head. Man, I'm so off the top of my head. Man, I'm so off the top of my head. Man, I'm so thankful for the time. thankful for the time. thankful for the time. >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called The >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called The >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called The Rooted Leader. It's out everywhere. And Rooted Leader. It's out everywhere. And Rooted Leader. It's out everywhere. And Eric, just thank you for thinking about Eric, just thank you for thinking about Eric, just thank you for thinking about the wider church. Thank you for leading the wider church. Thank you for leading the wider church. Thank you for leading for decades faithfully and just weighing for decades faithfully and just weighing for decades faithfully and just weighing in to this like it's a it's a moment in to this like it's a it's a moment in to this like it's a it's a moment we're in right now in the church.

we're in right now in the church. we're in right now in the church. >> Uh leaders like you are helping me make >> Uh leaders like you are helping me make >> Uh leaders like you are helping me make sense of it. You're helping a lot of sense of it. You're helping a lot of sense of it. You're helping a lot of people not just locally but but the people not just locally but but the people not just locally but but the Capitol C church as well. So thank you Capitol C church as well. So thank you Capitol C church as well. So thank you for that. I love for that. I love for that. I love >> uh easiest place to find you on social >> uh easiest place to find you on social >> uh easiest place to find you on social these days or to connect with you online these days or to connect with you online these days or to connect with you online is where? is where? is where? >> Um ericg.com. my occasionally will write >> Um ericg.com. my occasionally will write >> Um ericg.com. my occasionally will write a blog there a blog there a blog there >> and then there's links to my books and >> and then there's links to my books and >> and then there's links to my books and and everything there. and everything there. and everything there. >> Blogging is not dead. I will just say >> Blogging is not dead. I will just say >> Blogging is not dead. I will just say that. that. that. >> Come on. I'm fighting for it. >> Come on. I'm fighting for it. >> Come on. I'm fighting for it. >> Still a reader. I'm still I'm still >> Still a reader. I'm still I'm still >> Still a reader. I'm still I'm still >> readers, man. >> readers, man. >> readers, man. >> I do YouTube videos now, not not blogs, >> I do YouTube videos now, not not blogs, >> I do YouTube videos now, not not blogs, but I miss the blogging days. but I miss the blogging days. but I miss the blogging days. >> You were you were one of the first one, >> You were you were one of the first one, >> You were you were one of the first one, man. You you built you built such a man. You you built you built such a man. You you built you built such a great niche there. great niche there. great niche there. >> I loved it. I loved it. I'm thinking >> I loved it. I loved it. I'm thinking >> I loved it. I loved it. I'm thinking about Substack. Do you read Substack by about Substack. Do you read Substack by about Substack. Do you read Substack by any chance? I I uh I will read sometimes any chance? I I uh I will read sometimes any chance? I I uh I will read sometimes when someone hey read my article on when someone hey read my article on when someone hey read my article on Substack. But do you have to be a member Substack. But do you have to be a member Substack. But do you have to be a member to read the whole thing or or can you to read the whole thing or or can you to read the whole thing or or can you free tiers? It's like why can't that free tiers? It's like why can't that free tiers? It's like why can't that just be a blog? Why does everybody have just be a blog? Why does everybody have just be a blog? Why does everybody have to be on Substack? I don't know. I got I to be on Substack? I don't know. I got I to be on Substack? I don't know. I got I got to do some research on that. But got to do some research on that. But got to do some research on that. But >> anyway, Eric, until next time. Thank you >> anyway, Eric, until next time. Thank you >> anyway, Eric, until next time. Thank you so much.

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