Gen Z Is Redefining Diversity Expectations In America

1950 4 88% of America was White 2050 by 1950 4 88% of America was White 2050 by US Census projections 44% from 88% to US Census projections 44% from 88% to US Census projections 44% from 88% to 44% such that today's gen Z and Alpha if 44% such that today's gen Z and Alpha if 44% such that today's gen Z and Alpha if they come in a group and it is not they come in a group and it is not they come in a group and it is not racially racially racially diverse they an antenna immediately go diverse they an antenna immediately go diverse they an antenna immediately go up and say what's the matter with this up and say what's the matter with this up and say what's the matter with this place Welcome to the car newoff place Welcome to the car newoff place Welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us today if you have glad you joined us today if you have glad you joined us today if you have ever wondered what happens as Christians ever wondered what happens as Christians ever wondered what happens as Christians become the minority in the US what become the minority in the US what become the minority in the US what shifts do you need to make to make your shifts do you need to make to make your shifts do you need to make to make your church future ready and the surprising church future ready and the surprising church future ready and the surprising reasons people give for not attending reasons people give for not attending reasons people give for not attending church you've come to the right place church you've come to the right place church you've come to the right place today I've got Warren bird and Adele today I've got Warren bird and Adele today I've got Warren bird and Adele banks on the podcast and we're going to banks on the podcast and we're going to banks on the podcast and we're going to talk about all that and a whole lot more talk about all that and a whole lot more talk about all that and a whole lot more you can like subscribe and leave a you can like subscribe and leave a you can like subscribe and leave a comment to join the conversation we're comment to join the conversation we're comment to join the conversation we're going to jump right into the interview going to jump right into the interview going to jump right into the interview after a word from our very carefully after a word from our very carefully after a word from our very carefully chosen partners and then right into the chosen partners and then right into the chosen partners and then right into the conversation today's episode is brought conversation today's episode is brought conversation today's episode is brought to you by Studio C you know every pastor to you by Studio C you know every pastor to you by Studio C you know every pastor wants to disciple people effectively but wants to disciple people effectively but wants to disciple people effectively but here's a real challenge how do you do it here's a real challenge how do you do it here's a real challenge how do you do it at scale without losing the Personal at scale without losing the Personal at scale without losing the Personal Touch well churches like Church of the Touch well churches like Church of the Touch well churches like Church of the Highlands Saddleback Rock City and Highlands Saddleback Rock City and Highlands Saddleback Rock City and others are doing it with Studio C's others are doing it with Studio C's others are doing it with Studio C's member engagement solution and the member engagement solution and the member engagement solution and the results are impressive so imagine results are impressive so imagine results are impressive so imagine automatically knowing who needs automatically knowing who needs automatically knowing who needs encouragement to join a group who's encouragement to join a group who's encouragement to join a group who's ready to serve and who might be ready to serve and who might be ready to serve and who might be considering baptism these leading considering baptism these leading considering baptism these leading churches are using Studio C to deliver

churches are using Studio C to deliver churches are using Studio C to deliver personalized messages that move people personalized messages that move people personalized messages that move people forward in their faith Journey after all forward in their faith Journey after all forward in their faith Journey after all if discipleship is your why personal if discipleship is your why personal if discipleship is your why personal engagement is your house so if you're engagement is your house so if you're engagement is your house so if you're ready to join these forward-thinking ready to join these forward-thinking ready to join these forward-thinking churches start by taking Studio C's churches start by taking Studio C's churches start by taking Studio C's member engagement assessment to see how member engagement assessment to see how member engagement assessment to see how you can engage your people better at you can engage your people better at you can engage your people better at scale take the free assessment today scale take the free assessment today scale take the free assessment today atth studioc c.org carry that'sthe atth studioc c.org carry that'sthe atth studioc c.org carry that'sthe studioc c.org studioc c.org studioc c.org GCA y today's episode is brought to you GCA y today's episode is brought to you GCA y today's episode is brought to you by ble so what is one task you wish you by ble so what is one task you wish you by ble so what is one task you wish you could delegate today the truth is just could delegate today the truth is just could delegate today the truth is just because it has to get done doesn't mean because it has to get done doesn't mean because it has to get done doesn't mean you have to be the one to do it so stop you have to be the one to do it so stop you have to be the one to do it so stop doing it all and start delegating with doing it all and start delegating with doing it all and start delegating with Bay I just delegated a problem I had the Bay I just delegated a problem I had the Bay I just delegated a problem I had the other day to my assistant I'll tell you other day to my assistant I'll tell you other day to my assistant I'll tell you makes a huge difference freeze up your makes a huge difference freeze up your makes a huge difference freeze up your Al load and for over a decade ble has Al load and for over a decade ble has Al load and for over a decade ble has matched busy leaders like you with the matched busy leaders like you with the matched busy leaders like you with the support they need to start delegating support they need to start delegating support they need to start delegating whether it's a virtual assistant to whether it's a virtual assistant to whether it's a virtual assistant to knock out your to-do list or an knock out your to-do list or an knock out your to-do list or an accounting professional to handle your accounting professional to handle your accounting professional to handle your finances Bay's Flexible Staffing finances Bay's Flexible Staffing finances Bay's Flexible Staffing Solutions have your right hire right now Solutions have your right hire right now Solutions have your right hire right now so to get started download Bay's free so to get started download Bay's free so to get started download Bay's free guide to delegation today 25 things to guide to delegation today 25 things to guide to delegation today 25 things to stop doing in 2025 with this resource stop doing in 2025 with this resource stop doing in 2025 with this resource you can declutter your to-do list list you can declutter your to-do list list you can declutter your to-do list list delegate to someone you trust and delegate to someone you trust and delegate to someone you trust and reclaim your time and focus today here's reclaim your time and focus today here's reclaim your time and focus today here's what you do text my name Carrie C Y to

what you do text my name Carrie C Y to what you do text my name Carrie C Y to 55123 for your free download that's c y 55123 for your free download that's c y 55123 for your free download that's c y to 55123 and in no time you'll be off to 55123 and in no time you'll be off to 55123 and in no time you'll be off doing exactly what you do best well hey doing exactly what you do best well hey doing exactly what you do best well hey leaders before we jump into today's leaders before we jump into today's leaders before we jump into today's conversation with Warren bird and Adele conversation with Warren bird and Adele conversation with Warren bird and Adele Banks I've got David kinaman here CEO of Banks I've got David kinaman here CEO of Banks I've got David kinaman here CEO of the Barna group and we are going to talk the Barna group and we are going to talk the Barna group and we are going to talk about a stateof the church update and about a stateof the church update and about a stateof the church update and today David I want to ask you about the today David I want to ask you about the today David I want to ask you about the state of church engagement you've got state of church engagement you've got state of church engagement you've got some new research and we want to share some new research and we want to share some new research and we want to share it with leaders because as we learn we it with leaders because as we learn we it with leaders because as we learn we all grow together so what are you all grow together so what are you all grow together so what are you discovering about discovering about discovering about engagement well uh I've heard you say engagement well uh I've heard you say engagement well uh I've heard you say before Carrie that engagement is the new before Carrie that engagement is the new before Carrie that engagement is the new attendance and uh a great way to measure attendance and uh a great way to measure attendance and uh a great way to measure an Effectiveness in Ministry and uh we an Effectiveness in Ministry and uh we an Effectiveness in Ministry and uh we have done a study among pastors asking have done a study among pastors asking have done a study among pastors asking them a very similar question and uh we them a very similar question and uh we them a very similar question and uh we as them to choose between two different as them to choose between two different as them to choose between two different options um we asked them of the two options um we asked them of the two options um we asked them of the two statements which comes closer to what statements which comes closer to what statements which comes closer to what you believe and the first was attendance you believe and the first was attendance you believe and the first was attendance and size are good metric for measuring and size are good metric for measuring and size are good metric for measuring the success of a church versus number the success of a church versus number the success of a church versus number two depth of Engagement and commitment two depth of Engagement and commitment two depth of Engagement and commitment are a good metric for measuring the are a good metric for measuring the are a good metric for measuring the success of a church now in our surveys I success of a church now in our surveys I success of a church now in our surveys I I you know sort of said number one I you know sort of said number one I you know sort of said number one number two but we always rotate randomly number two but we always rotate randomly number two but we always rotate randomly the ways in which those are presented so the ways in which those are presented so the ways in which those are presented so it's right in case people have a bias it's right in case people have a bias it's right in case people have a bias toward like well I always do the first toward like well I always do the first toward like well I always do the first answer okay exactly yeah so and and I answer okay exactly yeah so and and I answer okay exactly yeah so and and I always think about sort of the the false always think about sort of the the false always think about sort of the the false dichotomy sometimes survey researchers dichotomy sometimes survey researchers dichotomy sometimes survey researchers put together because obviously put together because obviously put together because obviously attendance and uh you know engagement attendance and uh you know engagement attendance and uh you know engagement can be good measures but essentially

can be good measures but essentially can be good measures but essentially what we found was pretty surprising uh what we found was pretty surprising uh what we found was pretty surprising uh was that 92% more than nine out of 10 uh was that 92% more than nine out of 10 uh was that 92% more than nine out of 10 uh senior pastors say that depth of senior pastors say that depth of senior pastors say that depth of Engagement and commitment are a good Engagement and commitment are a good Engagement and commitment are a good metric for measuring the success of a metric for measuring the success of a metric for measuring the success of a church maybe they've been listening to church maybe they've been listening to church maybe they've been listening to you Carrie but only you know what that's you Carrie but only you know what that's you Carrie but only you know what that's I was talking with my team the other day I was talking with my team the other day I was talking with my team the other day I'm like I remember the first post and I I'm like I remember the first post and I I'm like I remember the first post and I think that is one of the ideas that think that is one of the ideas that think that is one of the ideas that actually has changed the conversation in actually has changed the conversation in actually has changed the conversation in the church so I'm happy about it and I I the church so I'm happy about it and I I the church so I'm happy about it and I I think that's true so like what do think that's true so like what do think that's true so like what do Pastors mean by depth of Engagement Pastors mean by depth of Engagement Pastors mean by depth of Engagement because that could go in a million because that could go in a million because that could go in a million different directions did you look at different directions did you look at different directions did you look at specific criteria for that we didn't and specific criteria for that we didn't and specific criteria for that we didn't and that's part of the reason you're going that's part of the reason you're going that's part of the reason you're going to find this is a reverse interview to find this is a reverse interview to find this is a reverse interview because that's the study finding and now because that's the study finding and now because that's the study finding and now now I'm here to ask you what do you now I'm here to ask you what do you now I'm here to ask you what do you think is in uh what what pastors could think is in uh what what pastors could think is in uh what what pastors could be thinking about in terms of death of be thinking about in terms of death of be thinking about in terms of death of Engagement I've got some ideas which Engagement I've got some ideas which Engagement I've got some ideas which I'll be happy to throw out there but I I'll be happy to throw out there but I I'll be happy to throw out there but I wonder what you what you had in mind wonder what you what you had in mind wonder what you what you had in mind when you made that assertion probably when you made that assertion probably when you made that assertion probably when I framed that question almost a when I framed that question almost a when I framed that question almost a decade ago that decade ago that decade ago that assertion uh I was looking at we used to assertion uh I was looking at we used to assertion uh I was looking at we used to call them in the church model I was in call them in the church model I was in call them in the church model I was in the four things so you're looking at the four things so you're looking at the four things so you're looking at things like are they volunteering are things like are they volunteering are things like are they volunteering are they giving are they inviting friends they giving are they inviting friends they giving are they inviting friends like are they actually actively engaged like are they actually actively engaged like are they actually actively engaged in um in sharing their faith and then in um in sharing their faith and then in um in sharing their faith and then are they part of a community group right are they part of a community group right are they part of a community group right so you want to look for people who are so you want to look for people who are so you want to look for people who are serving giving in other words am I here serving giving in other words am I here serving giving in other words am I here consuming or am I contributing so that consuming or am I contributing so that consuming or am I contributing so that was kind of an early start and a simple was kind of an early start and a simple was kind of an early start and a simple metric and we used to talk about people metric and we used to talk about people metric and we used to talk about people being three for three you know three for being three for three you know three for being three for three you know three for four or four for four and once you got

four or four for four and once you got four or four for four and once you got into I'm doing three of the four or four into I'm doing three of the four or four into I'm doing three of the four or four of those four things I would say you're of those four things I would say you're of those four things I would say you're deeply engaged and the part that was deeply engaged and the part that was deeply engaged and the part that was really encouraging if you're deeply really encouraging if you're deeply really encouraging if you're deeply engaged in something like if you're a if engaged in something like if you're a if engaged in something like if you're a if you're a huge football fan or soccer fan you're a huge football fan or soccer fan you're a huge football fan or soccer fan or baseball fan you're engaged you're or baseball fan you're engaged you're or baseball fan you're engaged you're all in on your team you're not missing all in on your team you're not missing all in on your team you're not missing games right okay you're going to sit games right okay you're going to sit games right okay you're going to sit down you're going to move your schedule down you're going to move your schedule down you're going to move your schedule around so that you can catch the game around so that you can catch the game around so that you can catch the game live not just get the highlights on ESPN live not just get the highlights on ESPN live not just get the highlights on ESPN the next day and the same is true of the next day and the same is true of the next day and the same is true of Christians I mean if you're inviting Christians I mean if you're inviting Christians I mean if you're inviting your friends and you're tithing you're your friends and you're tithing you're your friends and you're tithing you're giving meaningfully you're sacrificing giving meaningfully you're sacrificing giving meaningfully you're sacrificing your precious time off in the evening or your precious time off in the evening or your precious time off in the evening or on the weekends or whenever so that you on the weekends or whenever so that you on the weekends or whenever so that you can serve and you're engaged in can serve and you're engaged in can serve and you're engaged in community group like that's an actual community group like that's an actual community group like that's an actual thing on your calendar then chances are thing on your calendar then chances are thing on your calendar then chances are you are growing spiritually but what I'm you are growing spiritually but what I'm you are growing spiritually but what I'm excited about with state of the church excited about with state of the church excited about with state of the church is you've identified dimensions of human is you've identified dimensions of human is you've identified dimensions of human flourishing 15 metrics of thriving flourishing 15 metrics of thriving flourishing 15 metrics of thriving churches with which I think takes it to churches with which I think takes it to churches with which I think takes it to a whole other level so anyway you being a whole other level so anyway you being a whole other level so anyway you being the interviewer that is my answer well the interviewer that is my answer well the interviewer that is my answer well I'm always glad to flip the mic on you I'm always glad to flip the mic on you I'm always glad to flip the mic on you but um uh no I think that's that's so but um uh no I think that's that's so but um uh no I think that's that's so helpful because we're continuing our helpful because we're continuing our helpful because we're continuing our journey to try to help church leaders journey to try to help church leaders journey to try to help church leaders grow thriving churches and as you grow thriving churches and as you grow thriving churches and as you alluded to we've got 15 different alluded to we've got 15 different alluded to we've got 15 different dimensions of a thriving Church which I dimensions of a thriving Church which I dimensions of a thriving Church which I think helps us to look it's it's think helps us to look it's it's think helps us to look it's it's nurturing it's sending it's leading it's nurturing it's sending it's leading it's nurturing it's sending it's leading it's Faith sharing it's Faith formation it's Faith sharing it's Faith formation it's Faith sharing it's Faith formation it's these different elements that I think these different elements that I think these different elements that I think any of us in Ministry hope to see happen any of us in Ministry hope to see happen any of us in Ministry hope to see happen in our churches uh but that was such a in our churches uh but that was such a in our churches uh but that was such a helpful way to think about it uh so you

helpful way to think about it uh so you helpful way to think about it uh so you said volunteering giving uh inviting said volunteering giving uh inviting said volunteering giving uh inviting friends and being involved in like a friends and being involved in like a friends and being involved in like a small group or some sort of some kind of small group or some sort of some kind of small group or some sort of some kind of like Community that's intentional right like Community that's intentional right like Community that's intentional right and those were the four metrics that I and those were the four metrics that I and those were the four metrics that I used when I was a lead pastor I think used when I was a lead pastor I think used when I was a lead pastor I think they're still helpful but I think we can they're still helpful but I think we can they're still helpful but I think we can probably grow that definition a little probably grow that definition a little probably grow that definition a little bit what I love is you're diving pretty bit what I love is you're diving pretty bit what I love is you're diving pretty deep in the state of the church and deep in the state of the church and deep in the state of the church and asking these questions and 92% of asking these questions and 92% of asking these questions and 92% of pastors agree and the other thing I pastors agree and the other thing I pastors agree and the other thing I would say last thought before we wrap would say last thought before we wrap would say last thought before we wrap this up is attendance still matters this up is attendance still matters this up is attendance still matters giving still matters and and you know my giving still matters and and you know my giving still matters and and you know my metric on engagement was it's more metric on engagement was it's more metric on engagement was it's more important than you give that you give important than you give that you give important than you give that you give than I receive right like cuz it doesn't than I receive right like cuz it doesn't than I receive right like cuz it doesn't really matter how much you give it's really matter how much you give it's really matter how much you give it's like are you really deeply engaged in like are you really deeply engaged in like are you really deeply engaged in giving and but then your attendants your giving and but then your attendants your giving and but then your attendants your giving your baptisms they tend to be lag giving your baptisms they tend to be lag giving your baptisms they tend to be lag measures it's the engagement that measures it's the engagement that measures it's the engagement that creates the lead measures so anyway creates the lead measures so anyway creates the lead measures so anyway David you've got a lot more at state of David you've got a lot more at state of David you've got a lot more at state of the church.com we have a special link the church.com we have a special link the church.com we have a special link stateof thee church.com carry and we'll stateof thee church.com carry and we'll stateof thee church.com carry and we'll be dropping in every month this year be dropping in every month this year be dropping in every month this year giving special updates along the way so giving special updates along the way so giving special updates along the way so thanks for joining us to kick off this thanks for joining us to kick off this thanks for joining us to kick off this episode of the podcast absolutely my episode of the podcast absolutely my episode of the podcast absolutely my pleasure War and Adele welcome to the pleasure War and Adele welcome to the pleasure War and Adele welcome to the podcast it's great to have you both podcast it's great to have you both podcast it's great to have you both thanks for having us a delight to be thanks for having us a delight to be thanks for having us a delight to be back thank you yeah yeah you're like is back thank you yeah yeah you're like is back thank you yeah yeah you're like is this round six with you Warren first this round six with you Warren first this round six with you Warren first time forell is round six yeah you got to time forell is round six yeah you got to time forell is round six yeah you got to be up there an OG podcast OG which is

be up there an OG podcast OG which is be up there an OG podcast OG which is great so we're going to talk about the great so we're going to talk about the great so we're going to talk about the future of the church the two of you and future of the church the two of you and future of the church the two of you and Daniel Yang have written together a new Daniel Yang have written together a new Daniel Yang have written together a new book called uh becoming a future ready book called uh becoming a future ready book called uh becoming a future ready Church which I had the privilege of of Church which I had the privilege of of Church which I had the privilege of of reading through in the early days and reading through in the early days and reading through in the early days and endorsing and I think leaders are endorsing and I think leaders are endorsing and I think leaders are looking for hope so I want to start you looking for hope so I want to start you looking for hope so I want to start you know it's sort of that Jim Collins like know it's sort of that Jim Collins like know it's sort of that Jim Collins like name brutal reality but never lose hope name brutal reality but never lose hope name brutal reality but never lose hope I think that's the tone of this I think that's the tone of this I think that's the tone of this conversation what it's going to be but conversation what it's going to be but conversation what it's going to be but let's start with the camera angle wide let's start with the camera angle wide let's start with the camera angle wide when you think about the most when you think about the most when you think about the most significant Trends and you have significant Trends and you have significant Trends and you have literally poured over thousands of data literally poured over thousands of data literally poured over thousands of data points what pops waren what what for you points what pops waren what what for you points what pops waren what what for you are a couple of meta trends metastats are a couple of meta trends metastats are a couple of meta trends metastats have really commanded your attention all have really commanded your attention all have really commanded your attention all right you didn't ask me to say this but right you didn't ask me to say this but right you didn't ask me to say this but reading krie newoff blogs and podcasts reading krie newoff blogs and podcasts reading krie newoff blogs and podcasts and all you'll pick up an awful lot I and all you'll pick up an awful lot I and all you'll pick up an awful lot I tried real hard to pick something that tried real hard to pick something that tried real hard to pick something that you hadn't you hadn't you hadn't emphasized good good and the first is emphasized good good and the first is emphasized good good and the first is that the role modeling has changed you that the role modeling has changed you that the role modeling has changed you know we all follow Role Models far more know we all follow Role Models far more know we all follow Role Models far more than than we acknowledge and like than than we acknowledge and like than than we acknowledge and like several things are happening at once several things are happening at once several things are happening at once suspicious of something big whereas 10 suspicious of something big whereas 10 suspicious of something big whereas 10 20 years ago large large churches were 20 years ago large large churches were 20 years ago large large churches were were the role models and today it's like were the role models and today it's like were the role models and today it's like oh they must be doing something wrong oh they must be doing something wrong oh they must be doing something wrong you know what's the problem with them you know what's the problem with them you know what's the problem with them um 10 20 years ago you couldn't get a um 10 20 years ago you couldn't get a um 10 20 years ago you couldn't get a hold of anybody else you would have to hold of anybody else you would have to hold of anybody else you would have to go to their conference now you just tune

go to their conference now you just tune go to their conference now you just tune into a car newoff podcast or anyone else into a car newoff podcast or anyone else into a car newoff podcast or anyone else any Pastor that I want to follow I can any Pastor that I want to follow I can any Pastor that I want to follow I can connect with which means there can be connect with which means there can be connect with which means there can be multiple Role Models there aren't just a multiple Role Models there aren't just a multiple Role Models there aren't just a handful of dominant role models handful of dominant role models handful of dominant role models meanwhile you've got a multiplication meanwhile you've got a multiplication meanwhile you've got a multiplication emphasis shifting in the role models emphasis shifting in the role models emphasis shifting in the role models it's not just enough to to grow or even it's not just enough to to grow or even it's not just enough to to grow or even be healthy but you got to figure out how be healthy but you got to figure out how be healthy but you got to figure out how to multiply and You've Got A to multiply and You've Got A to multiply and You've Got A discipleship emphasis that's saying oh discipleship emphasis that's saying oh discipleship emphasis that's saying oh no no no it's about making discipl no no no it's about making discipl no no no it's about making discipl makers kind of the second Timothy 2:2 makers kind of the second Timothy 2:2 makers kind of the second Timothy 2:2 train others who train others who train train others who train others who train train others who train others who train others who train others and all of that others who train others and all of that others who train others and all of that has really on the one hand blurred but has really on the one hand blurred but has really on the one hand blurred but on the other hand kind of reset on the other hand kind of reset on the other hand kind of reset what the role models are for what the what the role models are for what the what the role models are for what the church is trying to to be and do and church is trying to to be and do and church is trying to to be and do and then add on top of that is kind of what then add on top of that is kind of what then add on top of that is kind of what is the goal you know long long ago it is the goal you know long long ago it is the goal you know long long ago it was like every week is prepare to meet was like every week is prepare to meet was like every week is prepare to meet your maker you know how do how do you your maker you know how do how do you your maker you know how do how do you get ready for eternity and and like I I get ready for eternity and and like I I get ready for eternity and and like I I I was at a funeral or a a funeral home I was at a funeral or a a funeral home I was at a funeral or a a funeral home and spoke and I spoke just before I and spoke and I spoke just before I and spoke and I spoke just before I spoke to the crowd I spoke to the spoke to the crowd I spoke to the spoke to the crowd I spoke to the lifelong best friend of the person who lifelong best friend of the person who lifelong best friend of the person who died and I said so tell me you know your died and I said so tell me you know your died and I said so tell me you know your discussions about eternity and spiritual discussions about eternity and spiritual discussions about eternity and spiritual things and he said you know over the things and he said you know over the things and he said you know over the course of X number of course of X number of course of X number of decades we never once were interested decades we never once were interested decades we never once were interested enough in the afterlife to talk about it

enough in the afterlife to talk about it enough in the afterlife to talk about it well okay that's not where people are well okay that's not where people are well okay that's not where people are itching but that's a whole sea change itching but that's a whole sea change itching but that's a whole sea change for how churches for how churches for how churches approach what they're trying to approach what they're trying to approach what they're trying to highlight as the next step and and so highlight as the next step and and so highlight as the next step and and so today it's far more a series of steps in today it's far more a series of steps in today it's far more a series of steps in discipleship than it is that one discipleship than it is that one discipleship than it is that one decisive uh moment and you're set and decisive uh moment and you're set and decisive uh moment and you're set and now um let's go reach other people H now um let's go reach other people H now um let's go reach other people H there's a lot there and I've got to ask there's a lot there and I've got to ask there's a lot there and I've got to ask You Adele you know as you poured over so You Adele you know as you poured over so You Adele you know as you poured over so many uh reports so much research had so many uh reports so much research had so many uh reports so much research had so many conversation with church leaders many conversation with church leaders many conversation with church leaders what are the meta trends that you have what are the meta trends that you have what are the meta trends that you have your eye on or the statistics that are your eye on or the statistics that are your eye on or the statistics that are jumping out for you one thing that's jumping out for you one thing that's jumping out for you one thing that's striking me is um about postco so to striking me is um about postco so to striking me is um about postco so to speak I've been really fascinated with speak I've been really fascinated with speak I've been really fascinated with how churches have and haven't changed how churches have and haven't changed how churches have and haven't changed because of the pandemic and the fact because of the pandemic and the fact because of the pandemic and the fact that we have hybrid churches that people that we have hybrid churches that people that we have hybrid churches that people say in person and online in the same say in person and online in the same say in person and online in the same sentence all the time to me is actually sentence all the time to me is actually sentence all the time to me is actually a sign of Hope for the churches because a sign of Hope for the churches because a sign of Hope for the churches because it shows that they have shifted and some it shows that they have shifted and some it shows that they have shifted and some of them thought they were just going to of them thought they were just going to of them thought they were just going to go back to in person well that's not go back to in person well that's not go back to in person well that's not what happened but they're still managing what happened but they're still managing what happened but they're still managing because they're able to do both and I because they're able to do both and I because they're able to do both and I think that's kind of a a trend that fits think that's kind of a a trend that fits think that's kind of a a trend that fits a lot into what we were writing about in a lot into what we were writing about in a lot into what we were writing about in the the the book okay so on The Meta level because book okay so on The Meta level because book okay so on The Meta level because Warren I've emailed you or texted you so Warren I've emailed you or texted you so Warren I've emailed you or texted you so many times on this always trying to get many times on this always trying to get many times on this always trying to get the latest data from what you can

the latest data from what you can the latest data from what you can tell how you know five years on the tell how you know five years on the tell how you know five years on the other side of covid 2025 what percentage other side of covid 2025 what percentage other side of covid 2025 what percentage of churches today are growing what of churches today are growing what of churches today are growing what percentage is plateaued and what percentage is plateaued and what percentage is plateaued and what percentage is declining in the American percentage is declining in the American percentage is declining in the American Church Church Church we'll have some hard data in a couple we'll have some hard data in a couple we'll have some hard data in a couple years but my gut and initial years but my gut and initial years but my gut and initial observations is the gap has just observations is the gap has just observations is the gap has just intensified those that were growing are intensified those that were growing are intensified those that were growing are growing even more those that that were growing even more those that that were growing even more those that that were struggling the pandemic accelerated that struggling the pandemic accelerated that struggling the pandemic accelerated that weakness that soft spot and they're weakness that soft spot and they're weakness that soft spot and they're hurting even more and the middle is not hurting even more and the middle is not hurting even more and the middle is not as big as before uh but but the kind of as big as before uh but but the kind of as big as before uh but but the kind of grow growth is during the pandemic there grow growth is during the pandemic there grow growth is during the pandemic there was a whole lot of transfer growth and was a whole lot of transfer growth and was a whole lot of transfer growth and that's you and I actually talked about that's you and I actually talked about that's you and I actually talked about that on our last podcast that on our last podcast that on our last podcast together there are coming back to your together there are coming back to your together there are coming back to your theme of hope there like I talked to theme of hope there like I talked to theme of hope there like I talked to let's say it was one of the five largest let's say it was one of the five largest let's say it was one of the five largest attendance churches in the United States attendance churches in the United States attendance churches in the United States senior pastor recently and he said I senior pastor recently and he said I senior pastor recently and he said I have more hope today because I see more have more hope today because I see more have more hope today because I see more spiritual receptivity today coming out spiritual receptivity today coming out spiritual receptivity today coming out of the pandemic than never before and lo of the pandemic than never before and lo of the pandemic than never before and lo and behold his church is growing as and behold his church is growing as and behold his church is growing as never never never before so you're seeing and and again before so you're seeing and and again before so you're seeing and and again we'll get percentages at some point I we'll get percentages at some point I we'll get percentages at some point I think the old rule was 80 85% of think the old rule was 80 85% of think the old rule was 80 85% of churches are Plateau are declining and churches are Plateau are declining and churches are Plateau are declining and maybe 15% are growing do you have any

maybe 15% are growing do you have any maybe 15% are growing do you have any gut feeli early uh Returns on whether gut feeli early uh Returns on whether gut feeli early uh Returns on whether that number is shifted at that number is shifted at that number is shifted at all no I the more that I'm seeing is all no I the more that I'm seeing is all no I the more that I'm seeing is people are redefining the goalpost and people are redefining the goalpost and people are redefining the goalpost and they're saying okay well what do it they're saying okay well what do it they're saying okay well what do it really mean to be growing or are really mean to be growing or are really mean to be growing or are declining and if you know every person declining and if you know every person declining and if you know every person that a church reaches is a yay God so that a church reaches is a yay God so that a church reaches is a yay God so let's not hurt anyone's diminish let's not hurt anyone's diminish let's not hurt anyone's diminish anyone's drive to continue to reach that anyone's drive to continue to reach that anyone's drive to continue to reach that one lost sheep uh but at the same time one lost sheep uh but at the same time one lost sheep uh but at the same time if if my numbers have changed if if my numbers have changed if if my numbers have changed only um barely in over a several year only um barely in over a several year only um barely in over a several year spread I can't call that growth by spread I can't call that growth by spread I can't call that growth by saying by lowering okay but I grew by 2% saying by lowering okay but I grew by 2% saying by lowering okay but I grew by 2% over 10 years um technically that's not over 10 years um technically that's not over 10 years um technically that's not growing but it's it may be doing a growing but it's it may be doing a growing but it's it may be doing a wonderful job the other piece is who are wonderful job the other piece is who are wonderful job the other piece is who are you reaching like uh lee ker uh just you reaching like uh lee ker uh just you reaching like uh lee ker uh just outside of Pittsburgh amplifi church he outside of Pittsburgh amplifi church he outside of Pittsburgh amplifi church he said I'll come and be your pastor if said I'll come and be your pastor if said I'll come and be your pastor if you'll allow me to do one thing and you'll allow me to do one thing and you'll allow me to do one thing and that's make the that's make the that's make the congregation the same age as the congregation the same age as the congregation the same age as the surrounding Community do whatever it surrounding Community do whatever it surrounding Community do whatever it takes to reach our community in a way takes to reach our community in a way takes to reach our community in a way that we that we that we represent who our community is agewise represent who our community is agewise represent who our community is agewise race and ethnicity wise as well and that

race and ethnicity wise as well and that race and ethnicity wise as well and that by the way that Journey worked and and by the way that Journey worked and and by the way that Journey worked and and they've done it and they're growing they've done it and they're growing they've done it and they're growing because they're matching their community because they're matching their community because they're matching their community so when we talk about plateaued and so when we talk about plateaued and so when we talk about plateaued and declining and and growing there's a lot declining and and growing there's a lot declining and and growing there's a lot behind the who you're reaching as part behind the who you're reaching as part behind the who you're reaching as part of it speaking of the who who you're of it speaking of the who who you're of it speaking of the who who you're reaching I wonder about again back to reaching I wonder about again back to reaching I wonder about again back to the online question as to what the the online question as to what the the online question as to what the numbers really are because when you ask numbers really are because when you ask numbers really are because when you ask people you don't I mean even asking what people you don't I mean even asking what people you don't I mean even asking what membership now is is a question that you membership now is is a question that you membership now is is a question that you really can't a answer you can't get an really can't a answer you can't get an really can't a answer you can't get an answer because there are people online answer because there are people online answer because there are people online and there are people in person and it's and there are people in person and it's and there are people in person and it's hard to keep track but I think the fact hard to keep track but I think the fact hard to keep track but I think the fact that there are many churches that will that there are many churches that will that there are many churches that will find that there's not that many people find that there's not that many people find that there's not that many people there on a Sunday morning morning but there on a Sunday morning morning but there on a Sunday morning morning but not just on Sunday but throughout the not just on Sunday but throughout the not just on Sunday but throughout the rest of the week the number who've rest of the week the number who've rest of the week the number who've watched that service are more than those watched that service are more than those watched that service are more than those who were in person and so that's like a who were in person and so that's like a who were in person and so that's like a whole new numbers game and just because whole new numbers game and just because whole new numbers game and just because you're not seeing them doesn't mean you're not seeing them doesn't mean you're not seeing them doesn't mean you're not reaching them as I try to you're not reaching them as I try to you're not reaching them as I try to remind leaders a full room doesn't mean remind leaders a full room doesn't mean remind leaders a full room doesn't mean a fulfilled Mission everybody you want a fulfilled Mission everybody you want a fulfilled Mission everybody you want to reach is online right and I think I to reach is online right and I think I to reach is online right and I think I think we're still adjusting to that new think we're still adjusting to that new think we're still adjusting to that new reality and there's a lot of full rooms reality and there's a lot of full rooms reality and there's a lot of full rooms but some of that is transfer growth etc but some of that is transfer growth etc but some of that is transfer growth etc etc which we've covered on this podcast etc which we've covered on this podcast etc which we've covered on this podcast in the past now um Ryan Burj who wrote in the past now um Ryan Burj who wrote in the past now um Ryan Burj who wrote the forward to your latest book he has the forward to your latest book he has the forward to your latest book he has said uh unapologetically that according said uh unapologetically that according said uh unapologetically that according to his research his take is the non- to his research his take is the non- to his research his take is the non- denominational church is the biggest denominational church is the biggest denominational church is the biggest force in the church and perhaps in force in the church and perhaps in force in the church and perhaps in American religion right now what are you American religion right now what are you American religion right now what are you seeing with the rise of non- seeing with the rise of non- seeing with the rise of non- denominationalism uh Adele why don't we

denominationalism uh Adele why don't we denominationalism uh Adele why don't we start with you I think it's another way start with you I think it's another way start with you I think it's another way of people not answering questions you of people not answering questions you of people not answering questions you know I used to ask people well what's know I used to ask people well what's know I used to ask people well what's your denomination and they wouldn't even your denomination and they wouldn't even your denomination and they wouldn't even they would automatically know what to they would automatically know what to they would automatically know what to say and people are moved away from that say and people are moved away from that say and people are moved away from that kind of identity and I think that's part kind of identity and I think that's part kind of identity and I think that's part of what of what of what future wanting church leaders um need to future wanting church leaders um need to future wanting church leaders um need to recognize is that people just aren't recognize is that people just aren't recognize is that people just aren't going to identify themselves anymore so going to identify themselves anymore so going to identify themselves anymore so you think it's a it's more of a cultural you think it's a it's more of a cultural you think it's a it's more of a cultural categorical thing than a thing like I categorical thing than a thing like I categorical thing than a thing like I think it's both I think it's both okay think it's both I think it's both okay think it's both I think it's both okay but I think that people are not but I think that people are not but I think that people are not interested in as much as much in what interested in as much as much in what interested in as much as much in what their denomination is as much as any their denomination is as much as any their denomination is as much as any other thing you might ask them that other thing you might ask them that other thing you might ask them that relates to religion they don't tie relates to religion they don't tie relates to religion they don't tie themselves to a particular group they themselves to a particular group they themselves to a particular group they may tie themselves to Jesus they may say may tie themselves to Jesus they may say may tie themselves to Jesus they may say they're Jesus followers for instance but they're Jesus followers for instance but they're Jesus followers for instance but there isn't that con there isn't as big there isn't that con there isn't as big there isn't that con there isn't as big a connection to denominations as there a connection to denominations as there a connection to denominations as there used to be you know it's interesting I I used to be you know it's interesting I I used to be you know it's interesting I I don't do a lot of weddings they tend to don't do a lot of weddings they tend to don't do a lot of weddings they tend to be for family and friends uh we're a be for family and friends uh we're a be for family and friends uh we're a non-denominational church like strictly non-denominational church like strictly non-denominational church like strictly speaking if you had to categorize us but speaking if you had to categorize us but speaking if you had to categorize us but I know some people who have a I know some people who have a I know some people who have a denominational background they're denominational background they're denominational background they're Baptists or whatever and still in Canada Baptists or whatever and still in Canada Baptists or whatever and still in Canada I have to ask them what is your religion I have to ask them what is your religion I have to ask them what is your religion you know fill out all the those forms you know fill out all the those forms you know fill out all the those forms properly so everyone's legally married properly so everyone's legally married properly so everyone's legally married increasingly for the last 10 years increasingly for the last 10 years increasingly for the last 10 years regardless of denomination the answer is regardless of denomination the answer is regardless of denomination the answer is simply Christian I'm a Christian so I simply Christian I'm a Christian so I simply Christian I'm a Christian so I write it down that's what they told me write it down that's what they told me write it down that's what they told me nobody's rejected their wedding license nobody's rejected their wedding license nobody's rejected their wedding license since then but yeah I think you're right since then but yeah I think you're right since then but yeah I think you're right I think people are assing historical I think people are assing historical I think people are assing historical labels plus there are a growing number labels plus there are a growing number labels plus there are a growing number of non-denominational churches uh Warren

of non-denominational churches uh Warren of non-denominational churches uh Warren I'd love your take on that the growth of I'd love your take on that the growth of I'd love your take on that the growth of non- denominationalism okay so first non- denominationalism okay so first non- denominationalism okay so first like Daniel sllan in Christianity Today like Daniel sllan in Christianity Today like Daniel sllan in Christianity Today he called it not the rise of the nuns he called it not the rise of the nuns he called it not the rise of the nuns which is a huge phenomenon but the rise which is a huge phenomenon but the rise which is a huge phenomenon but the rise of the nons and the non- denominational of the nons and the non- denominational of the nons and the non- denominational church is 30% across the board for church is 30% across the board for church is 30% across the board for Protestant churches and among mega Protestant churches and among mega Protestant churches and among mega churches it's 40% that would say we are churches it's 40% that would say we are churches it's 40% that would say we are not affiliated with the denomination but not affiliated with the denomination but not affiliated with the denomination but there's some other stuff behind it for there's some other stuff behind it for there's some other stuff behind it for example the larger the church the more example the larger the church the more example the larger the church the more it it it behaves non- denominationally it's that behaves non- denominationally it's that behaves non- denominationally it's that 800 PB gorilla increasingly its 800 PB gorilla increasingly its 800 PB gorilla increasingly its denomination that doesn't fit the denomination that doesn't fit the denomination that doesn't fit the denominational Rule books playbooks uh denominational Rule books playbooks uh denominational Rule books playbooks uh traditions and so it has and and the traditions and so it has and and the traditions and so it has and and the district leader superintendent whatever district leader superintendent whatever district leader superintendent whatever does has never led a church like that so does has never led a church like that so does has never led a church like that so really doesn't know what to do with a a really doesn't know what to do with a a really doesn't know what to do with a a church like that but even more so uh church like that but even more so uh church like that but even more so uh like when we did at ecfa the study on like when we did at ecfa the study on like when we did at ecfa the study on the new faces of church planting we ask the new faces of church planting we ask the new faces of church planting we ask what is your denomination and how what is your denomination and how what is your denomination and how strongly connected are you to that to strongly connected are you to that to strongly connected are you to that to domination oh that's an interesting domination oh that's an interesting domination oh that's an interesting question and and you already can predict question and and you already can predict question and and you already can predict where this is going to go the amount of where this is going to go the amount of where this is going to go the amount of people said well we're this but we're people said well we're this but we're people said well we're this but we're just Loosely connected with it is a just Loosely connected with it is a just Loosely connected with it is a world different than the the first world different than the the first world different than the the first church growth list you know we're always church growth list you know we're always church growth list you know we're always first you know XYZ Church First Baptist first you know XYZ Church First Baptist first you know XYZ Church First Baptist Church first assemblies Church whatever Church first assemblies Church whatever Church first assemblies Church whatever and and now those names are not in the

and and now those names are not in the and and now those names are not in the church name when you as Adele was church name when you as Adele was church name when you as Adele was alluding to when you go to a City you alluding to when you go to a City you alluding to when you go to a City you know well I was raised presbyter know well I was raised presbyter know well I was raised presbyter Presbyterian or whatever and so I'm Presbyterian or whatever and so I'm Presbyterian or whatever and so I'm going to the first thing I'm going to going to the first thing I'm going to going to the first thing I'm going to look for is a Presbyterian Church no look for is a Presbyterian Church no look for is a Presbyterian Church no that that that that that that loyalty is not there at all so the loyalty is not there at all so the loyalty is not there at all so the functionality of non-denominational functionality of non-denominational functionality of non-denominational churches has has just continues to grow churches has has just continues to grow churches has has just continues to grow I asked Lyle shaller about that before I asked Lyle shaller about that before I asked Lyle shaller about that before he died wow and he he said easy to he died wow and he he said easy to he died wow and he he said easy to explain explain explain 1776 and I said what do you mean he goes 1776 and I said what do you mean he goes 1776 and I said what do you mean he goes well that's the year the rebels in the well that's the year the rebels in the well that's the year the rebels in the United States said we'll take this United States said we'll take this United States said we'll take this country for ourself and we'll do it our country for ourself and we'll do it our country for ourself and we'll do it our way and he said that spirit is in every way and he said that spirit is in every way and he said that spirit is in every church denomination that's in the United church denomination that's in the United church denomination that's in the United States from that day forward wow okay States from that day forward wow okay States from that day forward wow okay couple of big insights on that first of couple of big insights on that first of couple of big insights on that first of all what Lyall Sher said and most people all what Lyall Sher said and most people all what Lyall Sher said and most people would have no idea who Lyall Sher was would have no idea who Lyall Sher was would have no idea who Lyall Sher was but I mean when I was coming up in the but I mean when I was coming up in the but I mean when I was coming up in the 90s everybody read Lyall shaller that 90s everybody read Lyall shaller that 90s everybody read Lyall shaller that makes sense I mean if you've read David makes sense I mean if you've read David makes sense I mean if you've read David McCulla McCulla McCulla 1776 you'd think wait is this about 250 1776 you'd think wait is this about 250 1776 you'd think wait is this about 250 years ago or is this about now like it years ago or is this about now like it years ago or is this about now like it that spirit is still there the other that spirit is still there the other that spirit is still there the other thing you said that totally resonated thing you said that totally resonated thing you said that totally resonated I've seen it a million times had so many I've seen it a million times had so many I've seen it a million times had so many of those congregations once a church get of those congregations once a church get of those congregations once a church get a conversations once a church gets to a a conversations once a church gets to a a conversations once a church gets to a certain certain certain size it may be denominational but it's size it may be denominational but it's size it may be denominational but it's sort of a very loose arms length sort of a very loose arms length sort of a very loose arms length affiliation I'd love to know from either

affiliation I'd love to know from either affiliation I'd love to know from either both of you why is that because I think both of you why is that because I think both of you why is that because I think that is a thing denominations don't know what to do with denominations don't know what to do with them they don't know what to do with them they don't know what to do with them they don't know what to do with denominations why does it get hard to be denominations why does it get hard to be denominations why does it get hard to be part of a denomination when you're a part of a denomination when you're a part of a denomination when you're a larger larger larger Church probably because people come in Church probably because people come in Church probably because people come in who are from all different kinds of who are from all different kinds of who are from all different kinds of denominations or none and they want to denominations or none and they want to denominations or none and they want to make sure they're speaking their make sure they're speaking their make sure they're speaking their language and keeping them not just language and keeping them not just language and keeping them not just reaching them but keeping them so I reaching them but keeping them so I reaching them but keeping them so I think there may be a hesitancy to think there may be a hesitancy to think there may be a hesitancy to affiliate with a particular group when affiliate with a particular group when affiliate with a particular group when you have such a wide range within your you have such a wide range within your you have such a wide range within your within your sanctuary within your sanctuary within your sanctuary when Robert Schuler was sent out to when Robert Schuler was sent out to when Robert Schuler was sent out to California to found what became the California to found what became the California to found what became the Crystal Cathedral back then the US Crystal Cathedral back then the US Crystal Cathedral back then the US Census told people's Faith group and he Census told people's Faith group and he Census told people's Faith group and he reported back to his national office if reported back to his national office if reported back to his national office if I tried to reach just those who identify I tried to reach just those who identify I tried to reach just those who identify as Dutch reformed I'm gonna have a very as Dutch reformed I'm gonna have a very as Dutch reformed I'm gonna have a very small impact in this whole city of Los small impact in this whole city of Los small impact in this whole city of Los Angeles and so he pioneered this idea Angeles and so he pioneered this idea Angeles and so he pioneered this idea that we accept so much today of calling that we accept so much today of calling that we accept so much today of calling it a community church now it was a it a community church now it was a it a community church now it was a denominational connection but he found denominational connection but he found denominational connection but he found that's going to work better and likewise that's going to work better and likewise that's going to work better and likewise Rick Warren when when his other area Rick Warren when when his other area Rick Warren when when his other area churches were helping him out one churches were helping him out one churches were helping him out one printed stationary that said here's for printed stationary that said here's for printed stationary that said here's for the Saddleback Valley Baptist Church and the Saddleback Valley Baptist Church and the Saddleback Valley Baptist Church and he's like no we're not going to do that he's like no we're not going to do that he's like no we're not going to do that we're going to call it a community we're going to call it a community we're going to call it a community church and we're going to reach more church and we're going to reach more church and we're going to reach more people that way so the logic is that by people that way so the logic is that by people that way so the logic is that by dropping the denominational name which dropping the denominational name which dropping the denominational name which was an asset 50 75 years ago it's a

was an asset 50 75 years ago it's a was an asset 50 75 years ago it's a limiter today and the larger you get the limiter today and the larger you get the limiter today and the larger you get the more of a limiter it's perceived to be H more of a limiter it's perceived to be H more of a limiter it's perceived to be H all right so your research project your all right so your research project your all right so your research project your project is really a work of hope I mean project is really a work of hope I mean project is really a work of hope I mean it's very easy to look at the rise of it's very easy to look at the rise of it's very easy to look at the rise of the nuns which has plateaued or look at the nuns which has plateaued or look at the nuns which has plateaued or look at the number of churches that close every the number of churches that close every the number of churches that close every year or the number you know even the year or the number you know even the year or the number you know even the size of the average Protestant size of the average Protestant size of the average Protestant congregation has shrunk in the last five congregation has shrunk in the last five congregation has shrunk in the last five to 10 years Etc it's very easy to be the to 10 years Etc it's very easy to be the to 10 years Etc it's very easy to be the Doom and Gloom person but both of you Doom and Gloom person but both of you Doom and Gloom person but both of you are and your co-author Daniel Yang are are and your co-author Daniel Yang are are and your co-author Daniel Yang are tracing out hope for the future so in tracing out hope for the future so in tracing out hope for the future so in the broadest Strokes where are you the broadest Strokes where are you the broadest Strokes where are you finding hope what are some very hopeful finding hope what are some very hopeful finding hope what are some very hopeful markers that you're markers that you're markers that you're finding I'm finding hope in The finding I'm finding hope in The finding I'm finding hope in The Innovation the fact that people are Innovation the fact that people are Innovation the fact that people are coming up with new ways to do Church new coming up with new ways to do Church new coming up with new ways to do Church new ways to bring people in things that are ways to bring people in things that are ways to bring people in things that are not necessarily at 11:00 on a Sunday not necessarily at 11:00 on a Sunday not necessarily at 11:00 on a Sunday they might be just playing community they might be just playing community they might be just playing community service and I think that's what gives me service and I think that's what gives me service and I think that's what gives me hope is that people think oh you know hope is that people think oh you know hope is that people think oh you know they look around and look over their they look around and look over their they look around and look over their shoulder and there's nobody sitting next shoulder and there's nobody sitting next shoulder and there's nobody sitting next to them or in the next Pew but they may to them or in the next Pew but they may to them or in the next Pew but they may be able to get people to do something be able to get people to do something be able to get people to do something outside of the church together that is outside of the church together that is outside of the church together that is in their way the church so I think in their way the church so I think in their way the church so I think that's part of what gives me hope is that's part of what gives me hope is that's part of what gives me hope is that there are people with new ideas and that there are people with new ideas and that there are people with new ideas and putting them into putting them into putting them into practice I I think first our model for practice I I think first our model for practice I I think first our model for Hope is the guy who who sat in prison Hope is the guy who who sat in prison Hope is the guy who who sat in prison and wrote Epistles about Hope and talked

and wrote Epistles about Hope and talked and wrote Epistles about Hope and talked about the God of hope you know he could about the God of hope you know he could about the God of hope you know he could have moaned and groaned about how bad have moaned and groaned about how bad have moaned and groaned about how bad things are and you know how many not things are and you know how many not things are and you know how many not great here got burned at the stake you great here got burned at the stake you great here got burned at the stake you know this week but but his letters like know this week but but his letters like know this week but but his letters like Philippians from the jail were full of Philippians from the jail were full of Philippians from the jail were full of Hope of Romans written to to about the Hope of Romans written to to about the Hope of Romans written to to about the God of Hope in the chapters 5 to eight God of Hope in the chapters 5 to eight God of Hope in the chapters 5 to eight so so this was Christianity as a tiny so so this was Christianity as a tiny so so this was Christianity as a tiny minority uh in a very oppressed culture minority uh in a very oppressed culture minority uh in a very oppressed culture saying we have the lifechanging freeing saying we have the lifechanging freeing saying we have the lifechanging freeing hope of the world uh and the Blessed hope of the world uh and the Blessed hope of the world uh and the Blessed hope may be Christ second coming but the hope may be Christ second coming but the hope may be Christ second coming but the hope that we have now uh is a piece that hope that we have now uh is a piece that hope that we have now uh is a piece that passes all understanding to use Jesus passes all understanding to use Jesus passes all understanding to use Jesus words so we have that model and yes all words so we have that model and yes all words so we have that model and yes all the projections and we highlight these the projections and we highlight these the projections and we highlight these in the book say that in the United in the book say that in the United in the book say that in the United States Christianity will be the minority States Christianity will be the minority States Christianity will be the minority Faith uh not the majority and and just Faith uh not the majority and and just Faith uh not the majority and and just going back to 1950s the Heyday of going back to 1950s the Heyday of going back to 1950s the Heyday of Christianity in America Christianity in America Christianity in America 92% of people identified with 92% of people identified with 92% of people identified with Christianity um and now Gallup has every Christianity um and now Gallup has every Christianity um and now Gallup has every year the the fewer and fewer people year the the fewer and fewer people year the the fewer and fewer people identify as church members and all so identify as church members and all so identify as church members and all so but but why what prevents us from having but but why what prevents us from having but but why what prevents us from having hope then an analogy Ezra 3 talks about hope then an analogy Ezra 3 talks about hope then an analogy Ezra 3 talks about coming back from captivity and the older coming back from captivity and the older coming back from captivity and the older folks weeped as they were rebuilding the

folks weeped as they were rebuilding the folks weeped as they were rebuilding the temple because it wasn't the dimensions temple because it wasn't the dimensions temple because it wasn't the dimensions of the new the newer generation were of the new the newer generation were of the new the newer generation were ecstatic hey look look at all we can do ecstatic hey look look at all we can do ecstatic hey look look at all we can do and we're getting help from the to and we're getting help from the to and we're getting help from the to rebuild it and all it's all in your rebuild it and all it's all in your rebuild it and all it's all in your perspective and likewise today's perspective and likewise today's perspective and likewise today's generation doesn't know about the generation doesn't know about the generation doesn't know about the liberal Mainline split I mean nobody liberal Mainline split I mean nobody liberal Mainline split I mean nobody would even believe if I said when I was would even believe if I said when I was would even believe if I said when I was in school we started school assemblies in school we started school assemblies in school we started school assemblies with the Lord's Prayer Public School The with the Lord's Prayer Public School The with the Lord's Prayer Public School The Lord's Prayer and the teach read a Bible Lord's Prayer and the teach read a Bible Lord's Prayer and the teach read a Bible devotional okay that day is gone but we devotional okay that day is gone but we devotional okay that day is gone but we have so many opportunities for the have so many opportunities for the have so many opportunities for the gospel and finally if you a talk if you gospel and finally if you a talk if you gospel and finally if you a talk if you study those across the board who say study those across the board who say study those across the board who say they never attend church but do you they never attend church but do you they never attend church but do you believe in a God or higher power for the believe in a God or higher power for the believe in a God or higher power for the last 30 years that percentage has been last 30 years that percentage has been last 30 years that percentage has been roughly unchanged in the high 70s or low roughly unchanged in the high 70s or low roughly unchanged in the high 70s or low 80s that I know something is out there 80s that I know something is out there 80s that I know something is out there well that means those people are well that means those people are well that means those people are reachable that should give us lots of reachable that should give us lots of reachable that should give us lots of hope when you say that Christians all hope when you say that Christians all hope when you say that Christians all the studies are pointing to the fact the studies are pointing to the fact the studies are pointing to the fact that Christians are going to be in the that Christians are going to be in the that Christians are going to be in the minority in America can you drill down minority in America can you drill down minority in America can you drill down on that a little bit like statistically on that a little bit like statistically on that a little bit like statistically what does that look like and when so Pew what does that look like and when so Pew what does that look like and when so Pew ran four ran four ran four scenarios um one of which uh is if it scenarios um one of which uh is if it scenarios um one of which uh is if it depends on immigration I can't put it depends on immigration I can't put it depends on immigration I can't put it back together but if people will Google back together but if people will Google back together but if people will Google Pew and that topic you will find the

Pew and that topic you will find the Pew and that topic you will find the scenarios in fact you could read our scenarios in fact you could read our scenarios in fact you could read our book where we unpack it for a few pages book where we unpack it for a few pages book where we unpack it for a few pages and and explain but no matter what and and explain but no matter what and and explain but no matter what variations are in tow the overall variations are in tow the overall variations are in tow the overall churchgoing America will be less than churchgoing America will be less than churchgoing America will be less than 50% uh by the year 50% uh by the year 50% uh by the year 20 40 do you remember cut off 2050 I 20 40 do you remember cut off 2050 I 20 40 do you remember cut off 2050 I think maybe 240 I think you're right think maybe 240 I think you're right think maybe 240 I think you're right yeah and I mean basically the way I look yeah and I mean basically the way I look yeah and I mean basically the way I look at that and correct me if I'm wrong at that and correct me if I'm wrong at that and correct me if I'm wrong what's happening on the coasts over the what's happening on the coasts over the what's happening on the coasts over the last few decades is going to happen last few decades is going to happen last few decades is going to happen across even the Bible Belt you know when across even the Bible Belt you know when across even the Bible Belt you know when you look at the East Coast New England you look at the East Coast New England you look at the East Coast New England when you look at California or Oregon or when you look at California or Oregon or when you look at California or Oregon or Seattle Washington when you see that Seattle Washington when you see that Seattle Washington when you see that that's sort of becoming the cultural that's sort of becoming the cultural that's sort of becoming the cultural Mila of America or maybe not I don't Mila of America or maybe not I don't Mila of America or maybe not I don't know well yes uh Ed ster puts it know well yes uh Ed ster puts it know well yes uh Ed ster puts it together in a way I love he says if you together in a way I love he says if you together in a way I love he says if you divide four quadrants one quadrant is divide four quadrants one quadrant is divide four quadrants one quadrant is kind of the Bible believing Church kind of the Bible believing Church kind of the Bible believing Church engaged segment of America whatever you engaged segment of America whatever you engaged segment of America whatever you call the the label with the Evangelical call the the label with the Evangelical call the the label with the Evangelical fundamentalist whatever that has fundamentalist whatever that has fundamentalist whatever that has remained constant constant and on the remained constant constant and on the remained constant constant and on the other end there's a quarter of people other end there's a quarter of people other end there's a quarter of people who are no faith different religions and who are no faith different religions and who are no faith different religions and all that has remained somewhat con all that has remained somewhat con all that has remained somewhat con constant the 50% in the middle constant the 50% in the middle constant the 50% in the middle for decades aligned for decades aligned for decades aligned with Biblical

with Biblical with Biblical Christianity and in the last 10 to 20 Christianity and in the last 10 to 20 Christianity and in the last 10 to 20 years they have years they have years they have realigned with the other segment and so realigned with the other segment and so realigned with the other segment and so everybody's saying well where did they everybody's saying well where did they everybody's saying well where did they go in part they were never really go in part they were never really go in part they were never really engaged and wholehearted with it they engaged and wholehearted with it they engaged and wholehearted with it they were just were just were just verbally affiliating verbally affiliating verbally affiliating with the dominant presence of a Biblical with the dominant presence of a Biblical with the dominant presence of a Biblical expression of Christian faith so in a expression of Christian faith so in a expression of Christian faith so in a lot of ways people's alignments have lot of ways people's alignments have lot of ways people's alignments have changed but the heart issues and the changed but the heart issues and the changed but the heart issues and the needs are are still roughly the same needs are are still roughly the same needs are are still roughly the same there's also that sense of acceptability there's also that sense of acceptability there's also that sense of acceptability you know it used to or respectability you know it used to or respectability you know it used to or respectability where people were kind of assumed to be where people were kind of assumed to be where people were kind of assumed to be part of that segment that Warren first part of that segment that Warren first part of that segment that Warren first described you know very much involved in described you know very much involved in described you know very much involved in faith in some way shape or form and now faith in some way shape or form and now faith in some way shape or form and now more people who maybe really weren't are more people who maybe really weren't are more people who maybe really weren't are in committing to that and identifying in committing to that and identifying in committing to that and identifying that way and that's where you get more that way and that's where you get more that way and that's where you get more of the the nuns or the people at least of the the nuns or the people at least of the the nuns or the people at least who are not particularly affiliated with who are not particularly affiliated with who are not particularly affiliated with a particular uh house of worship let's a particular uh house of worship let's a particular uh house of worship let's drill down on the nuns for a little bit drill down on the nuns for a little bit drill down on the nuns for a little bit because you've got quite a bit of because you've got quite a bit of because you've got quite a bit of material in your research on the nuns material in your research on the nuns material in your research on the nuns and uh what are you discovering about and uh what are you discovering about and uh what are you discovering about the people who describe as having no the people who describe as having no the people who describe as having no religion in particular what are you religion in particular what are you religion in particular what are you discovering about them because a lot of discovering about them because a lot of discovering about them because a lot of them have a Christian past right maybe them have a Christian past right maybe them have a Christian past right maybe they grew up in Sunday school they went they grew up in Sunday school they went they grew up in Sunday school they went to church at one point have they all to church at one point have they all to church at one point have they all deconverted uh what's going on Adele why deconverted uh what's going on Adele why deconverted uh what's going on Adele why don't you tell about there there there don't you tell about there there there don't you tell about there there there are a bunch of long stories in the book

are a bunch of long stories in the book are a bunch of long stories in the book different case studies from different different case studies from different different case studies from different churches why don't you go to Alpha and churches why don't you go to Alpha and churches why don't you go to Alpha and the coups up in Vancouver uh as maybe the coups up in Vancouver uh as maybe the coups up in Vancouver uh as maybe representative of how this group is representative of how this group is representative of how this group is being reached thanks laen yeah and the being reached thanks laen yeah and the being reached thanks laen yeah and the interesting thing about the coups this interesting thing about the coups this interesting thing about the coups this is Cheryl and David coup's uh Coupe is Cheryl and David coup's uh Coupe is Cheryl and David coup's uh Coupe excuse me of Coastal Church in Vancouver excuse me of Coastal Church in Vancouver excuse me of Coastal Church in Vancouver they are using something that some your they are using something that some your they are using something that some your listeners will perhaps recall and that listeners will perhaps recall and that listeners will perhaps recall and that is Alpha which has been around for a is Alpha which has been around for a is Alpha which has been around for a while and it's a 10-week Evangelistic while and it's a 10-week Evangelistic while and it's a 10-week Evangelistic course it teaches people about the course it teaches people about the course it teaches people about the basics of Christianity and they are basics of Christianity and they are basics of Christianity and they are using that after having tried some other using that after having tried some other using that after having tried some other methods that didn't work to bring people methods that didn't work to bring people methods that didn't work to bring people in and one of the things they say is in and one of the things they say is in and one of the things they say is that it it um treats the problem that that it it um treats the problem that that it it um treats the problem that many people are having in many cities many people are having in many cities many people are having in many cities and towns and Burrows and that is and towns and Burrows and that is and towns and Burrows and that is loneliness that people want to get loneliness that people want to get loneliness that people want to get together once a week and spend time with together once a week and spend time with together once a week and spend time with each other and in this case learn about each other and in this case learn about each other and in this case learn about Christianity and the people that are Christianity and the people that are Christianity and the people that are coming to this are all different ages coming to this are all different ages coming to this are all different ages and races and backgrounds and religions and races and backgrounds and religions and races and backgrounds and religions or no religion a lot of them are in 30s or no religion a lot of them are in 30s or no religion a lot of them are in 30s somethings which is like the group that somethings which is like the group that somethings which is like the group that many churches are wondering how can they many churches are wondering how can they many churches are wondering how can they get in and a lot of them are have no uh get in and a lot of them are have no uh get in and a lot of them are have no uh religious affiliation which is the case religious affiliation which is the case religious affiliation which is the case for like 50% of the people in Vancouver for like 50% of the people in Vancouver for like 50% of the people in Vancouver so people get together but the other so people get together but the other so people get together but the other thing is they don't just get together to thing is they don't just get together to thing is they don't just get together to talk about the Bible they get together talk about the Bible they get together talk about the Bible they get together over a meal and it could be a very nice over a meal and it could be a very nice over a meal and it could be a very nice touch kind of uh room in a high-rise touch kind of uh room in a high-rise touch kind of uh room in a high-rise building where they have a lot of those building where they have a lot of those building where they have a lot of those in Vancouver or it could be a basement in Vancouver or it could be a basement in Vancouver or it could be a basement of a church with teenagers getting of a church with teenagers getting of a church with teenagers getting together with pizza but they are together with pizza but they are together with pizza but they are together they're learning from each together they're learning from each together they're learning from each other and not only are they learning

other and not only are they learning other and not only are they learning from each other and learning about faith from each other and learning about faith from each other and learning about faith they then may go out for coffee later they then may go out for coffee later they then may go out for coffee later and continue to have friendships which and continue to have friendships which and continue to have friendships which they may not have had before so it's all they may not have had before so it's all they may not have had before so it's all a piece and some of them become a piece and some of them become a piece and some of them become Christians after being part of alpha Christians after being part of alpha Christians after being part of alpha some of them get into the community some of them get into the community some of them get into the community service that this church is doing either service that this church is doing either service that this church is doing either in Canada or or abroad or they may take in Canada or or abroad or they may take in Canada or or abroad or they may take the cour again in some cases they take the cour again in some cases they take the cour again in some cases they take it a third time which means that there's it a third time which means that there's it a third time which means that there's some interest out there that people may some interest out there that people may some interest out there that people may not realize and these are majority not realize and these are majority not realize and these are majority unchurched people like people who would unchurched people like people who would unchurched people like people who would say no religion in say no religion in say no religion in particular there are people who would be particular there are people who would be particular there are people who would be a variety some of them are no religion a variety some of them are no religion a variety some of them are no religion in particular but some of them are from in particular but some of them are from in particular but some of them are from another Faith Beyond Christian another Faith Beyond Christian another Faith Beyond Christian besides it's a combination of people besides it's a combination of people besides it's a combination of people coming in who haven't explored coming in who haven't explored coming in who haven't explored Christianity for one reason or the other Christianity for one reason or the other Christianity for one reason or the other our church is north of Toronto the one our church is north of Toronto the one our church is north of Toronto the one that I helped start and we're still a that I helped start and we're still a that I helped start and we're still a part of alpha we ran 20 years ago and it part of alpha we ran 20 years ago and it part of alpha we ran 20 years ago and it was incredibly effective and then we was incredibly effective and then we was incredibly effective and then we went through period where we didn't run went through period where we didn't run went through period where we didn't run it for a while we've run it again maybe it for a while we've run it again maybe it for a while we've run it again maybe over the last five or six years and it over the last five or six years and it over the last five or six years and it is just unbelievable to see who comes in is just unbelievable to see who comes in is just unbelievable to see who comes in the door through Alpha like from the door through Alpha like from the door through Alpha like from complete atheists to agnostics to nuns complete atheists to agnostics to nuns complete atheists to agnostics to nuns to uh people who who were Muslim you to uh people who who were Muslim you to uh people who who were Muslim you know and they're coming to find Jesus know and they're coming to find Jesus know and they're coming to find Jesus it's amazing to see how God's using it's amazing to see how God's using it's amazing to see how God's using Alpha what else is your research showing Alpha what else is your research showing Alpha what else is your research showing us about the us about the us about the nuns Mar you go ahead that as I alluded nuns Mar you go ahead that as I alluded nuns Mar you go ahead that as I alluded to before no religious preference

to before no religious preference to before no religious preference doesn't mean I don't believe in God I doesn't mean I don't believe in God I doesn't mean I don't believe in God I don't believe in a higher power it don't believe in a higher power it don't believe in a higher power it simply means I was born something I simply means I was born something I simply means I was born something I don't own it at all so I'm not even don't own it at all so I'm not even don't own it at all so I'm not even going to claim it as a tag which I see going to claim it as a tag which I see going to claim it as a tag which I see as making them all the more reachable as making them all the more reachable as making them all the more reachable because rather than having to get because rather than having to get because rather than having to get through their through their through their Church affiliation language oh well I'm Church affiliation language oh well I'm Church affiliation language oh well I'm a Christian because you know I was a Christian because you know I was a Christian because you know I was whatever happened as a kid in this whatever happened as a kid in this whatever happened as a kid in this church they just jettison that and and church they just jettison that and and church they just jettison that and and there's a greater openness to discussion there's a greater openness to discussion there's a greater openness to discussion about real issues the the percentages of about real issues the the percentages of about real issues the the percentages of people who say I am open to talking people who say I am open to talking people who say I am open to talking about faith issues with a person I trust about faith issues with a person I trust about faith issues with a person I trust as in a friend as in a friend as in a friend is really high so while the pulpit you is really high so while the pulpit you is really high so while the pulpit you you know bringing well okay this Sunday you know bringing well okay this Sunday you know bringing well okay this Sunday my gym attendant uh I've invited him to my gym attendant uh I've invited him to my gym attendant uh I've invited him to church and he's coming with his live-in church and he's coming with his live-in church and he's coming with his live-in fiance and their three-year-old kid and fiance and their three-year-old kid and fiance and their three-year-old kid and I'm I'm thinking okay can the church I'm I'm thinking okay can the church I'm I'm thinking okay can the church accept them where they accept them where they accept them where they are they want to do things God's way are they want to do things God's way are they want to do things God's way from everything I can tell so can the from everything I can tell so can the from everything I can tell so can the church embrace them and help them have church embrace them and help them have church embrace them and help them have that fresh start and is it the kind of that fresh start and is it the kind of that fresh start and is it the kind of place that someone who has a lot of place that someone who has a lot of place that someone who has a lot of questions about God will be freely questions about God will be freely questions about God will be freely welcome to ask them and if it is that welcome to ask them and if it is that welcome to ask them and if it is that safe kind of

safe kind of safe kind of environment there are a lot of people environment there are a lot of people environment there are a lot of people like my gym attendant out there and and like my gym attendant out there and and like my gym attendant out there and and who over friendship that I cultivated who over friendship that I cultivated who over friendship that I cultivated over many mo months and one time said over many mo months and one time said over many mo months and one time said you know well it's Easter Christmas you know well it's Easter Christmas you know well it's Easter Christmas whatever do you have somewhere to go and whatever do you have somewhere to go and whatever do you have somewhere to go and this is we're far from any of those this is we're far from any of those this is we're far from any of those holidays at this moment but it's taken holidays at this moment but it's taken holidays at this moment but it's taken that long to be able to invite okay well that long to be able to invite okay well that long to be able to invite okay well he didn't say well I was born whatever he didn't say well I was born whatever he didn't say well I was born whatever there were no labels he's the no there were no labels he's the no there were no labels he's the no religious affiliation but I'm happy to religious affiliation but I'm happy to religious affiliation but I'm happy to talk about it with you my talk about it with you my talk about it with you my friend well first of all the gym good friend well first of all the gym good friend well first of all the gym good for you and secondly actually practicing for you and secondly actually practicing for you and secondly actually practicing What You Preach that's amazing that's What You Preach that's amazing that's What You Preach that's amazing that's amazing well I'm a terrible evangelist amazing well I'm a terrible evangelist amazing well I'm a terrible evangelist but but one of the shifts that's but but one of the shifts that's but but one of the shifts that's occurred if if we' gone back to the okay occurred if if we' gone back to the okay occurred if if we' gone back to the okay Waring some more Church Waring some more Church Waring some more Church Trends over recent years The Motif has Trends over recent years The Motif has Trends over recent years The Motif has been let Let the church help been let Let the church help been let Let the church help you in your you in your you in your evangelism um you know if you can we'll evangelism um you know if you can we'll evangelism um you know if you can we'll give you excuses to invite your friend give you excuses to invite your friend give you excuses to invite your friend and this is all and this is all and this is all wonderful but we church leaders may have wonderful but we church leaders may have wonderful but we church leaders may have slacking off on but let me teach you how slacking off on but let me teach you how slacking off on but let me teach you how to actually share your faith give to actually share your faith give to actually share your faith give testimony invite someone start a testimony invite someone start a testimony invite someone start a spiritual spiritual spiritual conversation and and putting it back on conversation and and putting it back on conversation and and putting it back on us as we all have the privilege of us as we all have the privilege of us as we all have the privilege of talking with people that we could talking with people that we could talking with people that we could influence for Christ yeah I totally see

influence for Christ yeah I totally see influence for Christ yeah I totally see that one of one of the things that your that one of one of the things that your that one of one of the things that your research showed you know let me back up research showed you know let me back up research showed you know let me back up a little bit one of the things I tell a little bit one of the things I tell a little bit one of the things I tell people all the time including my team people all the time including my team people all the time including my team it's like hey don't say no for somebody it's like hey don't say no for somebody it's like hey don't say no for somebody so it's like oh I wonder if so and so so it's like oh I wonder if so and so so it's like oh I wonder if so and so would come on the podcast would come on the podcast would come on the podcast oh they're probably too busy they're oh they're probably too busy they're oh they're probably too busy they're probably like whoa whoa whoa I don't probably like whoa whoa whoa I don't probably like whoa whoa whoa I don't want to say no for somebody right so on want to say no for somebody right so on want to say no for somebody right so on that note I think it's easy to say no that note I think it's easy to say no that note I think it's easy to say no for people who don't attend church we for people who don't attend church we for people who don't attend church we just assume they're all atheists they're just assume they're all atheists they're just assume they're all atheists they're not interested they've been burned they not interested they've been burned they not interested they've been burned they have church hurt they've have church hurt they've have church hurt they've deconstructed the research and tell me deconstructed the research and tell me deconstructed the research and tell me if I got this wrong Adele you know the if I got this wrong Adele you know the if I got this wrong Adele you know the main reasons people cite for not main reasons people cite for not main reasons people cite for not attending church aren't theological attending church aren't theological attending church aren't theological they're practical like I don't fit in I they're practical like I don't fit in I they're practical like I don't fit in I move move move it was it was it was inconvenient um are those some of the inconvenient um are those some of the inconvenient um are those some of the reasons people are not attending church reasons people are not attending church reasons people are not attending church it's not like I'm an atheist I don't it's not like I'm an atheist I don't it's not like I'm an atheist I don't believe in God it's like that simple believe in God it's like that simple believe in God it's like that simple like I move to a new community it's like I move to a new community it's like I move to a new community it's inconvenient what what are you learning inconvenient what what are you learning inconvenient what what are you learning about people who don't attend church I about people who don't attend church I about people who don't attend church I think that um part of it is that don't think that um part of it is that don't think that um part of it is that don't fit in and that means that churches need fit in and that means that churches need fit in and that means that churches need to have a sense of belonging and give to have a sense of belonging and give to have a sense of belonging and give people a way to belong like we were people a way to belong like we were people a way to belong like we were talking about with Alpha is one one talking about with Alpha is one one talking about with Alpha is one one example um but um in fact that was a example um but um in fact that was a example um but um in fact that was a graphic that was in the story in the graphic that was in the story in the graphic that was in the story in the book that uh that uh Warren found for us book that uh that uh Warren found for us book that uh that uh Warren found for us related to the not fitting in that was related to the not fitting in that was related to the not fitting in that was like one of the main reasons people said like one of the main reasons people said like one of the main reasons people said they weren't coming it they weren't coming it they weren't coming it wasn't fit in it means that they are wasn't fit in it means that they are wasn't fit in it means that they are hesitant to darken the door of a church hesitant to darken the door of a church hesitant to darken the door of a church because they don't know how they're because they don't know how they're because they don't know how they're going to be received they may feel like going to be received they may feel like going to be received they may feel like they're not going to be accepted uh for

they're not going to be accepted uh for they're not going to be accepted uh for who they are or people might ask them who they are or people might ask them who they are or people might ask them questions they don't want to be asked questions they don't want to be asked questions they don't want to be asked and um I did write about life. church and um I did write about life. church and um I did write about life. church which is in Edmund Oklahoma and many which is in Edmund Oklahoma and many which is in Edmund Oklahoma and many many more places now and they stopped many more places now and they stopped many more places now and they stopped emphasizing the term membership and they emphasizing the term membership and they emphasizing the term membership and they focused instead on this sense of focused instead on this sense of focused instead on this sense of belonging and um it used to be that they belonging and um it used to be that they belonging and um it used to be that they had to have people sign every year what had to have people sign every year what had to have people sign every year what they were going to do and that might be they were going to do and that might be they were going to do and that might be another reason people don't want to another reason people don't want to another reason people don't want to darken the doors they're afraid they're darken the doors they're afraid they're darken the doors they're afraid they're going to be have to sign up for going to be have to sign up for going to be have to sign up for everything as soon as they come in and everything as soon as they come in and everything as soon as they come in and this church has said no let's work on this church has said no let's work on this church has said no let's work on having people feel more like they can having people feel more like they can having people feel more like they can how can they contribute they said they how can they contribute they said they how can they contribute they said they move from people being consumers where move from people being consumers where move from people being consumers where they just sit and do nothing but just they just sit and do nothing but just they just sit and do nothing but just let everybody else do anything they let everybody else do anything they let everybody else do anything they might do in a church but instead figure might do in a church but instead figure might do in a church but instead figure out how they're going to contribute out how they're going to contribute out how they're going to contribute helping in the community being part of a helping in the community being part of a helping in the community being part of a Bible study giving financially but not Bible study giving financially but not Bible study giving financially but not necessarily making it the first thing necessarily making it the first thing necessarily making it the first thing the person has to do and they walk in the person has to do and they walk in the person has to do and they walk in one way they make it more welcome is one way they make it more welcome is one way they make it more welcome is they introduce themselves every time they introduce themselves every time they introduce themselves every time they walk in that people walk in in the they walk in that people walk in in the they walk in that people walk in in the church and which is something that church and which is something that church and which is something that whether it's a huge Church like that one whether it's a huge Church like that one whether it's a huge Church like that one or a small one you know the minister can or a small one you know the minister can or a small one you know the minister can introduce themselves every time and not introduce themselves every time and not introduce themselves every time and not assume everybody knows who they are that assume everybody knows who they are that assume everybody knows who they are that helps you have a sense of belonging and helps you have a sense of belonging and helps you have a sense of belonging and also like that church doesn't take a also like that church doesn't take a also like that church doesn't take a tells the first time visitors you don't tells the first time visitors you don't tells the first time visitors you don't have to put anything in the offering have to put anything in the offering have to put anything in the offering bucket these are little things but they bucket these are little things but they bucket these are little things but they can make a big difference I mean if I can make a big difference I mean if I can make a big difference I mean if I were visiting a church for the first were visiting a church for the first were visiting a church for the first time and they told me that I didn't have time and they told me that I didn't have time and they told me that I didn't have to give anything in the offering plate to give anything in the offering plate to give anything in the offering plate I'd be impressed that they weren't I'd be impressed that they weren't I'd be impressed that they weren't pushing for that even though they pushing for that even though they pushing for that even though they probably need that um so those are kinds probably need that um so those are kinds probably need that um so those are kinds of things that various kinds of of things that various kinds of of things that various kinds of congregations could do to try to help

congregations could do to try to help congregations could do to try to help people feel more like they could fit in people feel more like they could fit in people feel more like they could fit in instead of feeling like oh wait I'm instead of feeling like oh wait I'm instead of feeling like oh wait I'm never coming back here again I just never coming back here again I just never coming back here again I just interviewed Craig grelle lead pastor at interviewed Craig grelle lead pastor at interviewed Craig grelle lead pastor at Life Church about some of the changes Life Church about some of the changes Life Church about some of the changes they've made even in the last year or they've made even in the last year or they've made even in the last year or two to try to assimilate community at two to try to assimilate community at two to try to assimilate community at scale they're the I believe the largest scale they're the I believe the largest scale they're the I believe the largest attended church in the history of attended church in the history of attended church in the history of America which is America which is America which is unbelievable and they're really doubled unbelievable and they're really doubled unbelievable and they're really doubled down on community they've loosen their down on community they've loosen their down on community they've loosen their definition of what counts they're trying definition of what counts they're trying definition of what counts they're trying to connect with people personally and I to connect with people personally and I to connect with people personally and I think they also embody Adele to your think they also embody Adele to your think they also embody Adele to your point the whole idea that they don't point the whole idea that they don't point the whole idea that they don't forget that every Sunday is somebody's forget that every Sunday is somebody's forget that every Sunday is somebody's first Sunday you might have 80,000 first Sunday you might have 80,000 first Sunday you might have 80,000 100,000 people attending your different 100,000 people attending your different 100,000 people attending your different locations but every Sunday is somebody's locations but every Sunday is somebody's locations but every Sunday is somebody's first Sunday and they've remembered that first Sunday and they've remembered that first Sunday and they've remembered that waren what are you seeing in reasons waren what are you seeing in reasons waren what are you seeing in reasons that people give for not going to church that people give for not going to church that people give for not going to church first let me underscore what you just first let me underscore what you just first let me underscore what you just said yesterday I talked with uh Dr said yesterday I talked with uh Dr said yesterday I talked with uh Dr William Kimi the uh pastor of one of the William Kimi the uh pastor of one of the William Kimi the uh pastor of one of the largest attendance churches in Africa largest attendance churches in Africa largest attendance churches in Africa there'd be easily and reliably more than there'd be easily and reliably more than there'd be easily and reliably more than 100,000 people On Any Given Sunday and 100,000 people On Any Given Sunday and 100,000 people On Any Given Sunday and his whole emphasis was exactly what you his whole emphasis was exactly what you his whole emphasis was exactly what you said from Craig Rochelle it's about said from Craig Rochelle it's about said from Craig Rochelle it's about Community it's about the small group Community it's about the small group Community it's about the small group that if if they'll be lost in the crowd that if if they'll be lost in the crowd that if if they'll be lost in the crowd but if they're connected in a small but if they're connected in a small but if they're connected in a small group and cared for and nurtured and group and cared for and nurtured and group and cared for and nurtured and helped to grow spiritually um then then helped to grow spiritually um then then helped to grow spiritually um then then they will Thrive and flourish regardless they will Thrive and flourish regardless they will Thrive and flourish regardless of how large the overall assembly is so of how large the overall assembly is so of how large the overall assembly is so this is not just an American thing and

this is not just an American thing and this is not just an American thing and and in talking with him he got that from and in talking with him he got that from and in talking with him he got that from yongi Cho in Korea and it's around the yongi Cho in Korea and it's around the yongi Cho in Korea and it's around the world of of ways that you grow bigger by world of of ways that you grow bigger by world of of ways that you grow bigger by getting smaller by getting smaller by getting smaller by by going figuring out what community by going figuring out what community by going figuring out what community means for each generation and how to means for each generation and how to means for each generation and how to grow that one of the dimensions in more grow that one of the dimensions in more grow that one of the dimensions in more specific answer to your question in the specific answer to your question in the specific answer to your question in the book that we highlight is you can't you book that we highlight is you can't you book that we highlight is you can't you can't assume that homogeneity happens can't assume that homogeneity happens can't assume that homogeneity happens just because you're all in the same just because you're all in the same just because you're all in the same group as church has become more diverse group as church has become more diverse group as church has become more diverse Hospitality over food of Fellowship Hospitality over food of Fellowship Hospitality over food of Fellowship intentionality across races ethnicities intentionality across races ethnicities intentionality across races ethnicities ages is going to become all the more ages is going to become all the more ages is going to become all the more important and without that element of important and without that element of important and without that element of intentionality the cohesiveness of the intentionality the cohesiveness of the intentionality the cohesiveness of the church and therefore the growth of the church and therefore the growth of the church and therefore the growth of the people in their walk with God is not people in their walk with God is not people in their walk with God is not going to going to going to happen anything else you want to say happen anything else you want to say happen anything else you want to say about diversity because that's another about diversity because that's another about diversity because that's another Trend you look at America today America Trend you look at America today America Trend you look at America today America 20 years ago America 20 years in the 20 years ago America 20 years in the 20 years ago America 20 years in the future um um Caucasian people will be in future um um Caucasian people will be in future um um Caucasian people will be in the minority almost already are uh and the minority almost already are uh and the minority almost already are uh and America is going to look very different America is going to look very different America is going to look very different in the future what are the implications in the future what are the implications in the future what are the implications of that for the church Adele might have of that for the church Adele might have of that for the church Adele might have a story about that but let me give you a story about that but let me give you a story about that but let me give you just a quick stat 1950 4 88% of America just a quick stat 1950 4 88% of America just a quick stat 1950 4 88% of America was White 2050 by US Census projections

was White 2050 by US Census projections was White 2050 by US Census projections 44% from 88% to 44% literally haved such 44% from 88% to 44% literally haved such 44% from 88% to 44% literally haved such that today's gen Z and Alpha if they that today's gen Z and Alpha if they that today's gen Z and Alpha if they come in a group and it is not racially come in a group and it is not racially come in a group and it is not racially diverse they're an antenna immediately diverse they're an antenna immediately diverse they're an antenna immediately go up and say what's the matter with go up and say what's the matter with go up and say what's the matter with this place what's the matter with this this place what's the matter with this this place what's the matter with this group that they don't group that they don't group that they don't represent what we are as a country the represent what we are as a country the represent what we are as a country the story that I wrote that um related to story that I wrote that um related to story that I wrote that um related to diversity in the book was actually about diversity in the book was actually about diversity in the book was actually about a church that was predominantly black a church that was predominantly black a church that was predominantly black had a lot of Caribbean members from lots had a lot of Caribbean members from lots had a lot of Caribbean members from lots of different countries so their of different countries so their of different countries so their diversity wasn't specifically uh wasn't diversity wasn't specifically uh wasn't diversity wasn't specifically uh wasn't just about race it was about you know just about race it was about you know just about race it was about you know the country people had come from but the country people had come from but the country people had come from but what what's interesting is that Charles what what's interesting is that Charles what what's interesting is that Charles gal breth the leader of that church gal breth the leader of that church gal breth the leader of that church nevertheless saw his community that was nevertheless saw his community that was nevertheless saw his community that was like you know 97% black and Caribbean like you know 97% black and Caribbean like you know 97% black and Caribbean and said wait there's still some other and said wait there's still some other and said wait there's still some other people out there that need to be reached people out there that need to be reached people out there that need to be reached and and he admitted that when his first and and he admitted that when his first and and he admitted that when his first approach was to try to do something approach was to try to do something approach was to try to do something within the walls of his own congregation within the walls of his own congregation within the walls of his own congregation his own building and it was later that his own building and it was later that his own building and it was later that he realized no we need to do something he realized no we need to do something he realized no we need to do something separate and they ended up with a separate and they ended up with a separate and they ended up with a separate campus that had white people separate campus that had white people separate campus that had white people Latina people and a few Caribbean people Latina people and a few Caribbean people Latina people and a few Caribbean people too meeting their needs in a different too meeting their needs in a different too meeting their needs in a different way it was more artsy the community was way it was more artsy the community was way it was more artsy the community was more artsy they were meeting in a way more artsy they were meeting in a way more artsy they were meeting in a way that others weren't like with dinner that others weren't like with dinner that others weren't like with dinner church so instead of just meeting uh church so instead of just meeting uh church so instead of just meeting uh sitting in church at a Pew or a seat sitting in church at a Pew or a seat sitting in church at a Pew or a seat they had people sitting around a table they had people sitting around a table they had people sitting around a table eating together and also having

eating together and also having eating together and also having discussion and being able to talk more discussion and being able to talk more discussion and being able to talk more and have more give and take all of that and have more give and take all of that and have more give and take all of that made a difference as far as um the made a difference as far as um the made a difference as far as um the diversity that that church was able to diversity that that church was able to diversity that that church was able to serve and so that's like an example that serve and so that's like an example that serve and so that's like an example that could be replicated no matter what race could be replicated no matter what race could be replicated no matter what race you're talking about being prominant in you're talking about being prominant in you're talking about being prominant in a church is to see well who are we a church is to see well who are we a church is to see well who are we missing who's who's different from us missing who's who's different from us missing who's who's different from us but who might want to be with us and who but who might want to be with us and who but who might want to be with us and who we should want to have with us and we should want to have with us and we should want to have with us and that's kind of what he was demonstrating that's kind of what he was demonstrating that's kind of what he was demonstrating I want to test something with you on I want to test something with you on I want to test something with you on that note I've always felt like a church that note I've always felt like a church that note I've always felt like a church should reflect its community so if should reflect its community so if should reflect its community so if you're in a community that's 97 you're in a community that's 97 you're in a community that's 97 Caribbean 97% Caribbean okay you're Caribbean 97% Caribbean okay you're Caribbean 97% Caribbean okay you're going to have a Caribbean church right going to have a Caribbean church right going to have a Caribbean church right uh but is that is that still accurate or uh but is that is that still accurate or uh but is that is that still accurate or would you challenge that like I just would you challenge that like I just would you challenge that like I just think look at the demographic breakdown think look at the demographic breakdown think look at the demographic breakdown of your community your church should be of your community your church should be of your community your church should be within a few percentage points of that within a few percentage points of that within a few percentage points of that so let I happen to know the history of so let I happen to know the history of so let I happen to know the history of that church uh it's in Brooklyn New York that church uh it's in Brooklyn New York that church uh it's in Brooklyn New York and they were an all-white church and and they were an all-white church and and they were an all-white church and they the neighborhood was changing and they the neighborhood was changing and they the neighborhood was changing and there was big discussion in the church there was big discussion in the church there was big discussion in the church and as people moved out but kept and as people moved out but kept and as people moved out but kept commuting in on Sunday that we don't commuting in on Sunday that we don't commuting in on Sunday that we don't represent our community should we represent our community should we represent our community should we intentionally become more like our intentionally become more like our intentionally become more like our immediate community and and Phil Bliss immediate community and and Phil Bliss immediate community and and Phil Bliss the pastor at that time courageously led the pastor at that time courageously led the pastor at that time courageously led the all-white Church to become uh the all-white Church to become uh the all-white Church to become uh integrated and ultimately to pass the

integrated and ultimately to pass the integrated and ultimately to pass the leadership baton to a person of A leadership baton to a person of A leadership baton to a person of A different race uh and different race uh and different race uh and over time when you look at like you know over time when you look at like you know over time when you look at like you know they say well well for America's largest they say well well for America's largest they say well well for America's largest corporations that were on the Dow Jones corporations that were on the Dow Jones corporations that were on the Dow Jones 100 or whatever you know so many of them 100 or whatever you know so many of them 100 or whatever you know so many of them don't exist anymore today well the same don't exist anymore today well the same don't exist anymore today well the same is true for the largest attendance is true for the largest attendance is true for the largest attendance churches and one of the many key factors churches and one of the many key factors churches and one of the many key factors in those declines is often neighborhood in those declines is often neighborhood in those declines is often neighborhood change and the church not changing with change and the church not changing with change and the church not changing with the neighborhood h the neighborhood h the neighborhood h that's a really good point you know the that's a really good point you know the that's a really good point you know the other thing that really jumped out at me other thing that really jumped out at me other thing that really jumped out at me I've known that family and households I've known that family and households I've known that family and households are changing but when I looked at your are changing but when I looked at your are changing but when I looked at your research kind of blew my mind can you research kind of blew my mind can you research kind of blew my mind can you talk about how our understanding because talk about how our understanding because talk about how our understanding because I think a lot of pastors probably myself I think a lot of pastors probably myself I think a lot of pastors probably myself included still think oh we're going to included still think oh we're going to included still think oh we're going to reach married people with two kids and reach married people with two kids and reach married people with two kids and you know that's going to fill up our you know that's going to fill up our you know that's going to fill up our church that's increasingly an in like church that's increasingly an in like church that's increasingly an in like rare species isn't it what what what are rare species isn't it what what what are rare species isn't it what what what are you learning about the composition the you learning about the composition the you learning about the composition the American family today and in the American family today and in the American family today and in the future so it's understandable that as future so it's understandable that as future so it's understandable that as the culture redefines marriage I mean we the culture redefines marriage I mean we the culture redefines marriage I mean we we recently celebrated Jimmy Carter and we recently celebrated Jimmy Carter and we recently celebrated Jimmy Carter and you know he was famous for saying to his you know he was famous for saying to his you know he was famous for saying to his staff hey those of you living in sin staff hey those of you living in sin staff hey those of you living in sin stop shacking up and you're setting an stop shacking up and you're setting an stop shacking up and you're setting an example for the nation it's a bad example for the nation it's a bad example for the nation it's a bad example set well can you imagine a example set well can you imagine a example set well can you imagine a president today saying that uh and and

president today saying that uh and and president today saying that uh and and it being socially acceptable you might it being socially acceptable you might it being socially acceptable you might imagine the opposite today yeah or a imagine the opposite today yeah or a imagine the opposite today yeah or a Canadian Premiere or anyone else oh yeah Canadian Premiere or anyone else oh yeah Canadian Premiere or anyone else oh yeah let's let's go as a result churches have let's let's go as a result churches have let's let's go as a result churches have said if there's any place we want to said if there's any place we want to said if there's any place we want to Champion marriage if there's any place Champion marriage if there's any place Champion marriage if there's any place we want to focus on helping you have a we want to focus on helping you have a we want to focus on helping you have a thriving marriage it needs to be the thriving marriage it needs to be the thriving marriage it needs to be the church and so the staff people of the church and so the staff people of the church and so the staff people of the church all tend to be married and and church all tend to be married and and church all tend to be married and and this is the focus and the programming of this is the focus and the programming of this is the focus and the programming of the church therefore tends to focus on the church therefore tends to focus on the church therefore tends to focus on married people people and yet the married people people and yet the married people people and yet the society not just around us but inside of society not just around us but inside of society not just around us but inside of us in the church as one of our Graphics us in the church as one of our Graphics us in the church as one of our Graphics shows and as listeners have probably shows and as listeners have probably shows and as listeners have probably picked up every chapter has a great picked up every chapter has a great picked up every chapter has a great story from Adele has a a few statistics story from Adele has a a few statistics story from Adele has a a few statistics for myself and then a lot of narrative for myself and then a lot of narrative for myself and then a lot of narrative uh to build around it um is the growth uh to build around it um is the growth uh to build around it um is the growth of not just single adults which is now of not just single adults which is now of not just single adults which is now like one out of three but those who are like one out of three but those who are like one out of three but those who are married married uh not I'm sorry those married married uh not I'm sorry those married married uh not I'm sorry those who have children but are not married who have children but are not married who have children but are not married and that group has has risen as well so and that group has has risen as well so and that group has has risen as well so the question to churches is not you know the question to churches is not you know the question to churches is not you know well stop emphasizing marriage but but well stop emphasizing marriage but but well stop emphasizing marriage but but how can you serve people who are how can you serve people who are how can you serve people who are adopting children or people in Blended adopting children or people in Blended adopting children or people in Blended families or people who are struggling to families or people who are struggling to families or people who are struggling to have children and not having I mean have children and not having I mean have children and not having I mean there there's so many varieties today there there's so many varieties today there there's so many varieties today can the church meaningfully speak to

can the church meaningfully speak to can the church meaningfully speak to that whole group and Dell did we do a that whole group and Dell did we do a that whole group and Dell did we do a story on that one too yeah I got to story on that one too yeah I got to story on that one too yeah I got to interview uh Carl Johnson who has a interview uh Carl Johnson who has a interview uh Carl Johnson who has a church called Faith City Church in St church called Faith City Church in St church called Faith City Church in St Paul Minnesota and he has several Paul Minnesota and he has several Paul Minnesota and he has several different ways that he approaches this different ways that he approaches this different ways that he approaches this topic of families he serves families in topic of families he serves families in topic of families he serves families in his church who are of a wide variety his church who are of a wide variety his church who are of a wide variety could be single mom single dads could be single mom single dads could be single mom single dads multi-racial families and that's what multi-racial families and that's what multi-racial families and that's what you see at worship time but also around you see at worship time but also around you see at worship time but also around the community that they serve but he the community that they serve but he the community that they serve but he points out that when the worship time points out that when the worship time points out that when the worship time ends they segue into Fellowship time but ends they segue into Fellowship time but ends they segue into Fellowship time but they tell the parents to stay put leave they tell the parents to stay put leave they tell the parents to stay put leave their kids in the separate but safe area their kids in the separate but safe area their kids in the separate but safe area their kids have been in during the their kids have been in during the their kids have been in during the service and just relax for a few minutes service and just relax for a few minutes service and just relax for a few minutes maybe even like 15 or 20 minutes and he maybe even like 15 or 20 minutes and he maybe even like 15 or 20 minutes and he says have a conversation with another says have a conversation with another says have a conversation with another adult for 20 minutes 10 minutes and it's adult for 20 minutes 10 minutes and it's adult for 20 minutes 10 minutes and it's something they may only have that something they may only have that something they may only have that opportunity to have once in a blue moon opportunity to have once in a blue moon opportunity to have once in a blue moon or maybe on that Sunday because they're or maybe on that Sunday because they're or maybe on that Sunday because they're so busy as single adults working uh to so busy as single adults working uh to so busy as single adults working uh to keep their kids uh busy and involved in keep their kids uh busy and involved in keep their kids uh busy and involved in things they never had time to talk to things they never had time to talk to things they never had time to talk to another adult and he realized that and another adult and he realized that and another adult and he realized that and they' that time aside within their they' that time aside within their they' that time aside within their congregation but beyond that this church congregation but beyond that this church congregation but beyond that this church also has a very unique Ministry to also has a very unique Ministry to also has a very unique Ministry to families in that it has a grocery store families in that it has a grocery store families in that it has a grocery store in the same space that they have their in the same space that they have their in the same space that they have their worship space and so during the rest of worship space and so during the rest of worship space and so during the rest of the week the neighborhood that has many the week the neighborhood that has many the week the neighborhood that has many people who are food insecure will come people who are food insecure will come people who are food insecure will come in and get food at a very discounted in and get food at a very discounted in and get food at a very discounted price eggs cereal that kind of thing and price eggs cereal that kind of thing and price eggs cereal that kind of thing and he says one of his most heartwarming he says one of his most heartwarming he says one of his most heartwarming moments in a week is when a kid comes in moments in a week is when a kid comes in moments in a week is when a kid comes in with a single parent reaches for

with a single parent reaches for with a single parent reaches for something on the shelf and the parent something on the shelf and the parent something on the shelf and the parent doesn't say no put that back because doesn't say no put that back because doesn't say no put that back because they were able to afford it so there's they were able to afford it so there's they were able to afford it so there's this sense of dignity there's this sense this sense of dignity there's this sense this sense of dignity there's this sense of almost uh Community transformation of almost uh Community transformation of almost uh Community transformation and the congregation is transformed as and the congregation is transformed as and the congregation is transformed as well because they're meeting a need well because they're meeting a need well because they're meeting a need they're finding out that the people they they're finding out that the people they they're finding out that the people they may have seen walking down the street may have seen walking down the street may have seen walking down the street are hungry and can't afford groceries are hungry and can't afford groceries are hungry and can't afford groceries otherwise or have access to them and otherwise or have access to them and otherwise or have access to them and their church is helping that their church is helping that their church is helping that happen so I'm looking at the graph it's happen so I'm looking at the graph it's happen so I'm looking at the graph it's page 44 of your book and I don't think page 44 of your book and I don't think page 44 of your book and I don't think I'm doing a very good job showing it I I'm doing a very good job showing it I I'm doing a very good job showing it I don't know we can reproduce it with the don't know we can reproduce it with the don't know we can reproduce it with the Publishers permission but just to show Publishers permission but just to show Publishers permission but just to show this in the show we will get the this in the show we will get the this in the show we will get the Publishers we'll get the Publishers Publishers we'll get the Publishers Publishers we'll get the Publishers permission the thing that got me in 1960 permission the thing that got me in 1960 permission the thing that got me in 1960 it looks like it looks like it looks like 45% of households were married with 45% of households were married with 45% of households were married with Children single person households like Children single person households like Children single person households like 12% 133% I haven't got the exact 12% 133% I haven't got the exact 12% 133% I haven't got the exact numbers now today in numbers now today in numbers now today in 2020 the number of one person households 2020 the number of one person households 2020 the number of one person households exceeds the number of people who are exceeds the number of people who are exceeds the number of people who are married with children in America America married with children in America America married with children in America America and the number of single parents with and the number of single parents with and the number of single parents with children is now double digits so it's children is now double digits so it's children is now double digits so it's it's insane like if you're Imagining the it's insane like if you're Imagining the it's insane like if you're Imagining the suburbs are filled with first marriage suburbs are filled with first marriage suburbs are filled with first marriage Married with Children two parents at Married with Children two parents at Married with Children two parents at home two kids you're imagining a world home two kids you're imagining a world home two kids you're imagining a world that no longer predominantly exists um that no longer predominantly exists um that no longer predominantly exists um what are the implications for churches what are the implications for churches what are the implications for churches like what do we need to we we've touched like what do we need to we we've touched like what do we need to we we've touched on them a little bit but anything else on them a little bit but anything else on them a little bit but anything else in terms of advice for how to deal with

in terms of advice for how to deal with in terms of advice for how to deal with that reality I would say even sermon that reality I would say even sermon that reality I would say even sermon illustrations need to be thought about illustrations need to be thought about illustrations need to be thought about because if you're just going to talk because if you're just going to talk because if you're just going to talk about you know two parents at a PTA about you know two parents at a PTA about you know two parents at a PTA meeting with their kids you know worried meeting with their kids you know worried meeting with their kids you know worried about their kids you know that's not the about their kids you know that's not the about their kids you know that's not the scenario for many a person who's scenario for many a person who's scenario for many a person who's listening to that sermon right and listening to that sermon right and listening to that sermon right and almost every Pastor is married with almost every Pastor is married with almost every Pastor is married with Children if you look at if we were to do Children if you look at if we were to do Children if you look at if we were to do the same graph for and and there's the same graph for and and there's the same graph for and and there's divorce pastors single pastors I mean I divorce pastors single pastors I mean I divorce pastors single pastors I mean I get it okay but I bet yet 80 to 90% of get it okay but I bet yet 80 to 90% of get it okay but I bet yet 80 to 90% of pastors are married with Children and in pastors are married with Children and in pastors are married with Children and in fact I've heard from people who are fact I've heard from people who are fact I've heard from people who are single you know guys in their 30s who single you know guys in their 30s who single you know guys in their 30s who are like it's harder to get hired when are like it's harder to get hired when are like it's harder to get hired when you don't have a wife and you don't have you don't have a wife and you don't have you don't have a wife and you don't have kids that's just the church milu weren't kids that's just the church milu weren't kids that's just the church milu weren't any final thoughts on the changing role any final thoughts on the changing role any final thoughts on the changing role of family and what we can do great Point of family and what we can do great Point of family and what we can do great Point Adele about varying your Adele about varying your Adele about varying your illustrations from white middle class illustrations from white middle class illustrations from white middle class life life life yeah so the the overarching theme of our yeah so the the overarching theme of our yeah so the the overarching theme of our book is don't lead your church book is don't lead your church book is don't lead your church alone listen to the voices of the alone listen to the voices of the alone listen to the voices of the younger generation yeah do it in we younger generation yeah do it in we younger generation yeah do it in we almost named the book preparing for 2050 almost named the book preparing for 2050 almost named the book preparing for 2050 and your first response would be but I and your first response would be but I and your first response would be but I Want Be Alive and Kicking or at least in Want Be Alive and Kicking or at least in Want Be Alive and Kicking or at least in a leadership role by 2050 and that's a leadership role by 2050 and that's a leadership role by 2050 and that's exactly the point yeah that that that exactly the point yeah that that that exactly the point yeah that that that you need to you need to you need to partner with the Next Generation and partner with the Next Generation and partner with the Next Generation and they know what's reaching their friends they know what's reaching their friends they know what's reaching their friends they know what they know what they know what language uh is is challenging or what

language uh is is challenging or what language uh is is challenging or what apologetic is working or what kind of apologetic is working or what kind of apologetic is working or what kind of role modeling relationally male female role modeling relationally male female role modeling relationally male female uh is gonna connect best with their uh is gonna connect best with their uh is gonna connect best with their generation not in any way saying change generation not in any way saying change generation not in any way saying change the Bible but the language we use as we the Bible but the language we use as we the Bible but the language we use as we teach the Bible to connect with the teach the Bible to connect with the teach the Bible to connect with the rising generation get help it's in your rising generation get help it's in your rising generation get help it's in your congregation they'd love to speak to you congregation they'd love to speak to you congregation they'd love to speak to you and guide you and uh dialogue with you and guide you and uh dialogue with you and guide you and uh dialogue with you for how to for how to for how to um reach their peers who ultimately will um reach their peers who ultimately will um reach their peers who ultimately will be the be the be the church can we talk for a minute I don't church can we talk for a minute I don't church can we talk for a minute I don't know that this is directly in your know that this is directly in your know that this is directly in your latest research but you have done a ton latest research but you have done a ton latest research but you have done a ton of research over your life Warren um of research over your life Warren um of research over your life Warren um talk about the Aging out of church staff talk about the Aging out of church staff talk about the Aging out of church staff in senior pastors I mean I think roughly in senior pastors I mean I think roughly in senior pastors I mean I think roughly the data in the 1990s the average senior the data in the 1990s the average senior the data in the 1990s the average senior pastor was 45 now that's pushing mid to pastor was 45 now that's pushing mid to pastor was 45 now that's pushing mid to Upper 50s it seems like you know if Upper 50s it seems like you know if Upper 50s it seems like you know if you're 30 you're leading an AI company you're 30 you're leading an AI company you're 30 you're leading an AI company that's literally changing history and that's literally changing history and that's literally changing history and changing the world if you're 30 in the changing the world if you're 30 in the changing the world if you're 30 in the church you're barely out of young adults church you're barely out of young adults church you're barely out of young adults Ministry and not ready for the senior Ministry and not ready for the senior Ministry and not ready for the senior leadership table what are you learning leadership table what are you learning leadership table what are you learning about demographics when it comes to about demographics when it comes to about demographics when it comes to church staff because I think you're church staff because I think you're church staff because I think you're right the only way to really affect right the only way to really affect right the only way to really affect change is to get younger voices around change is to get younger voices around change is to get younger voices around the table but that's not happening a lot the table but that's not happening a lot the table but that's not happening a lot well you are absolutely right that the well you are absolutely right that the well you are absolutely right that the average age of Pastor of all sizes of average age of Pastor of all sizes of average age of Pastor of all sizes of churches is going up well in in part we

churches is going up well in in part we churches is going up well in in part we have a longevity issue that that we're have a longevity issue that that we're have a longevity issue that that we're living longer so that are living in living longer so that are living in living longer so that are living in certain ways understandable in part certain ways understandable in part certain ways understandable in part people are starting who get married or people are starting who get married or people are starting who get married or starting families at all later so the starting families at all later so the starting families at all later so the average age of the church planter the average age of the church planter the average age of the church planter the starting Church being a little older it starting Church being a little older it starting Church being a little older it is is a little bit understandable but is is a little bit understandable but is is a little bit understandable but the overall concern that the church does the overall concern that the church does the overall concern that the church does not represent the the population around not represent the the population around not represent the the population around it the overall concern that we're not it the overall concern that we're not it the overall concern that we're not mentoring the Next Generation mentoring the Next Generation mentoring the Next Generation is troublesome especially since today in is troublesome especially since today in is troublesome especially since today in in my generation I didn't want anything in my generation I didn't want anything in my generation I didn't want anything to do with with my parents generation to do with with my parents generation to do with with my parents generation growing up today's growing up today's growing up today's generation in general loves the generation in general loves the generation in general loves the multi-generational approach and the multi-generational approach and the multi-generational approach and the mentoring and reverse mentoring of of uh mentoring and reverse mentoring of of uh mentoring and reverse mentoring of of uh back and forth that can happen there is back and forth that can happen there is back and forth that can happen there is no better no better no better opportunity to lead multi-generationally opportunity to lead multi-generationally opportunity to lead multi-generationally than today and the reason this is a than today and the reason this is a than today and the reason this is a concern is the average age of a concern is the average age of a concern is the average age of a congregation is the senior leader age congregation is the senior leader age congregation is the senior leader age minus about five years say that again minus about five years say that again minus about five years say that again say that again the average congregation say that again the average congregation say that again the average congregation is the senior leaders age minus about is the senior leaders age minus about is the senior leaders age minus about five years the reason being if I've got five years the reason being if I've got five years the reason being if I've got teenagers and that's the life stage I'm teenagers and that's the life stage I'm teenagers and that's the life stage I'm in predict the church is going to have a in predict the church is going to have a in predict the church is going to have a killer youth group predict Junior High killer youth group predict Junior High killer youth group predict Junior High parents middle School parents are like

parents middle School parents are like parents middle School parents are like oh this is the church for us because oh this is the church for us because oh this is the church for us because there's a youth group my kids can grow there's a youth group my kids can grow there's a youth group my kids can grow into or if I'm talking about uh into or if I'm talking about uh into or if I'm talking about uh grandkids and all who's that going to grandkids and all who's that going to grandkids and all who's that going to attract uh if I'm talking about kids and attract uh if I'm talking about kids and attract uh if I'm talking about kids and diapers uh who's that going to attract diapers uh who's that going to attract diapers uh who's that going to attract and say oh there's some wisdom here and say oh there's some wisdom here and say oh there's some wisdom here there's some emphasis here so you need there's some emphasis here so you need there's some emphasis here so you need to dilute and I understand Cara Powell to dilute and I understand Cara Powell to dilute and I understand Cara Powell is one of your upcoming guest um Fuller is one of your upcoming guest um Fuller is one of your upcoming guest um Fuller uh youth Institute has done some uh youth Institute has done some uh youth Institute has done some marvelous work a marvelous book on marvelous work a marvelous book on marvelous work a marvelous book on growing younger as a church and in part growing younger as a church and in part growing younger as a church and in part it's this idea of handing the keys it's this idea of handing the keys it's this idea of handing the keys figuratively and literally to the Next figuratively and literally to the Next figuratively and literally to the Next Generation Adele what are your thoughts Generation Adele what are your thoughts Generation Adele what are your thoughts on the Aging of clergy and church staff on the Aging of clergy and church staff on the Aging of clergy and church staff particularly senior Church staff I do particularly senior Church staff I do particularly senior Church staff I do think you're pointing out a really big think you're pointing out a really big think you're pointing out a really big issue and I think that where there is a issue and I think that where there is a issue and I think that where there is a focus on intergenerational work and focus on intergenerational work and focus on intergenerational work and Ministry that that is going to be one of Ministry that that is going to be one of Ministry that that is going to be one of the keys for the future of the church um the keys for the future of the church um the keys for the future of the church um when I talked to Jason Shepard of life.

when I talked to Jason Shepard of life. when I talked to Jason Shepard of life. church he talked about how people went church he talked about how people went church he talked about how people went from being small group leaders to from being small group leaders to from being small group leaders to leaders of house churches and he talked leaders of house churches and he talked leaders of house churches and he talked about the kids running around in the about the kids running around in the about the kids running around in the house where the the there is a someone house where the the there is a someone house where the the there is a someone hosting the church that's part of his hosting the church that's part of his hosting the church that's part of his church you know a smaller group of church you know a smaller group of church you know a smaller group of people meeting together but it wasn't people meeting together but it wasn't people meeting together but it wasn't just people of one age they had just people of one age they had just people of one age they had activities for the kids they had kids activities for the kids they had kids activities for the kids they had kids seeing their parents in another room seeing their parents in another room seeing their parents in another room grappling with you know how they related grappling with you know how they related grappling with you know how they related to the bible discussion of the week and to the bible discussion of the week and to the bible discussion of the week and that was part of what makes a difference that was part of what makes a difference that was part of what makes a difference the leadership is is intergenerational the leadership is is intergenerational the leadership is is intergenerational the church in meeting in small groups is the church in meeting in small groups is the church in meeting in small groups is not just one generation as well and I not just one generation as well and I not just one generation as well and I think that is a key for the future is think that is a key for the future is think that is a key for the future is that people are seeing themselves come that people are seeing themselves come that people are seeing themselves come together and explore their faith together and explore their faith together and explore their faith together and not just thinking it has to together and not just thinking it has to together and not just thinking it has to be person of a particular age who's be person of a particular age who's be person of a particular age who's leading it all so let me ask you a uh leading it all so let me ask you a uh leading it all so let me ask you a uh question that you know I'm not trying to question that you know I'm not trying to question that you know I'm not trying to set you up to fail but it's a tough set you up to fail but it's a tough set you up to fail but it's a tough question so I I tapped out of the lead question so I I tapped out of the lead question so I I tapped out of the lead Pastor role when I was 50 there were a Pastor role when I was 50 there were a Pastor role when I was 50 there were a variety of reasons which I've talked variety of reasons which I've talked variety of reasons which I've talked about publicly but one of them was about publicly but one of them was about publicly but one of them was exactly what you said Warren I thought I exactly what you said Warren I thought I exactly what you said Warren I thought I think the congregation's going to age think the congregation's going to age think the congregation's going to age with me if I keep doing this and you with me if I keep doing this and you with me if I keep doing this and you know I didn't know that this would know I didn't know that this would know I didn't know that this would become what it's become but I had other become what it's become but I had other become what it's become but I had other options and so I pursued those and God options and so I pursued those and God options and so I pursued those and God was extremely kind in the process and was extremely kind in the process and was extremely kind in the process and we're still part of our church but like we're still part of our church but like we're still part of our church but like I'm not on stage hardly at all anymore I'm not on stage hardly at all anymore I'm not on stage hardly at all anymore maybe once or twice a year and that as a maybe once or twice a year and that as a maybe once or twice a year and that as a guest so does that mean we all have to guest so does that mean we all have to guest so does that mean we all have to fall on our swords at 50 I remember

fall on our swords at 50 I remember fall on our swords at 50 I remember having when when right after I did that having when when right after I did that having when when right after I did that I went to DC and had dinner with Mark I went to DC and had dinner with Mark I went to DC and had dinner with Mark and Laura Batterson and you know and Laura Batterson and you know and Laura Batterson and you know everyone was like man you're so young everyone was like man you're so young everyone was like man you're so young and Mark's like yeah you are and yet the and Mark's like yeah you are and yet the and Mark's like yeah you are and yet the Old Testament the priest would like Old Testament the priest would like Old Testament the priest would like retire at 50 now that was a different retire at 50 now that was a different retire at 50 now that was a different generation different time but you know generation different time but you know generation different time but you know and not everybody can do it they don't and not everybody can do it they don't and not everybody can do it they don't have the finances Etc but I'm just have the finances Etc but I'm just have the finances Etc but I'm just curious like what's your thought do we curious like what's your thought do we curious like what's your thought do we need to see more people taking voluntary need to see more people taking voluntary need to see more people taking voluntary leaves just like what what is the leaves just like what what is the leaves just like what what is the prescription if the patient is aging prescription if the patient is aging prescription if the patient is aging what is the prescription teaching team what is the prescription teaching team what is the prescription teaching team for at least that part of the leadership for at least that part of the leadership for at least that part of the leadership that covers a huge diversity of Ages uh that covers a huge diversity of Ages uh that covers a huge diversity of Ages uh typically younger although I just talked typically younger although I just talked typically younger although I just talked to a a a pastor of a extremely large to a a a pastor of a extremely large to a a a pastor of a extremely large Church who said he hired someone older Church who said he hired someone older Church who said he hired someone older than him because they have you know the than him because they have you know the than him because they have you know the the segment of the population that's 55 the segment of the population that's 55 the segment of the population that's 55 and above is a huge slice that we're so and above is a huge slice that we're so and above is a huge slice that we're so busy sometimes reaching the next busy sometimes reaching the next busy sometimes reaching the next generation of Youth that we don't think generation of Youth that we don't think generation of Youth that we don't think man these are people with with volunteer man these are people with with volunteer man these are people with with volunteer potential giving potential maturity potential giving potential maturity potential giving potential maturity potential um they could change our potential um they could change our potential um they could change our community for good you know if that community for good you know if that community for good you know if that could just be harnessed as well but most could just be harnessed as well but most could just be harnessed as well but most churches need to bring in younger voices churches need to bring in younger voices churches need to bring in younger voices uh on the teaching team that will go uh on the teaching team that will go uh on the teaching team that will go wonders also who gives you feedback on wonders also who gives you feedback on wonders also who gives you feedback on your sermons uh the the larger the

your sermons uh the the larger the your sermons uh the the larger the church the more I find there's a sermon church the more I find there's a sermon church the more I find there's a sermon feedback constancy and and is it your feedback constancy and and is it your feedback constancy and and is it your peers of your age or is it intentionally peers of your age or is it intentionally peers of your age or is it intentionally the 20-some 30s somethings and and and the 20-some 30s somethings and and and the 20-some 30s somethings and and and sometimes younger even the writing of sometimes younger even the writing of sometimes younger even the writing of this book I'm a boomer Adele's an exer this book I'm a boomer Adele's an exer this book I'm a boomer Adele's an exer Daniel Yang is a millennial I'm actually Daniel Yang is a millennial I'm actually Daniel Yang is a millennial I'm actually a young Boomer but anyway she's gen Z yeah not quite she's gen Z yeah not quite not the book was so much better because not the book was so much better because not the book was so much better because we had perspectives from different we had perspectives from different we had perspectives from different Generations yeah Adele what what's your Generations yeah Adele what what's your Generations yeah Adele what what's your take on that do we need to fall on our take on that do we need to fall on our take on that do we need to fall on our sword just get cross-generational what sword just get cross-generational what sword just get cross-generational what what are you thinking I I just think what are you thinking I I just think what are you thinking I I just think it's important to make sure that there it's important to make sure that there it's important to make sure that there is cross-generational work I'm not going is cross-generational work I'm not going is cross-generational work I'm not going to say anybody who turns 50 cast to hang to say anybody who turns 50 cast to hang to say anybody who turns 50 cast to hang up their clerical robe but I do think up their clerical robe but I do think up their clerical robe but I do think that there has to be a way of not that there has to be a way of not that there has to be a way of not thinking that oh oh if you're 30 you thinking that oh oh if you're 30 you thinking that oh oh if you're 30 you can't do anything in this church yet and can't do anything in this church yet and can't do anything in this church yet and that has been the thought for a lot of that has been the thought for a lot of that has been the thought for a lot of churches for a long time too churches for a long time too churches for a long time too long I mean I I was in my 20 have the 30 long I mean I I was in my 20 have the 30 long I mean I I was in my 20 have the 30 people 30 something people leave because people 30 something people leave because people 30 something people leave because they don't see potential for their their they don't see potential for their their they don't see potential for their their being a leader in that church if they're being a leader in that church if they're being a leader in that church if they're not given a chance you know two things I not given a chance you know two things I not given a chance you know two things I I I only did law for a year but I uh I I only did law for a year but I uh I I only did law for a year but I uh they threw me to the Wolves they were they threw me to the Wolves they were they threw me to the Wolves they were like I was like maybe 26 27 and they're like I was like maybe 26 27 and they're like I was like maybe 26 27 and they're like go argue in court almost every day like go argue in court almost every day like go argue in court almost every day they let me figure it out and you know they let me figure it out and you know they let me figure it out and you know you figure it out even in your 20s like you figure it out even in your 20s like you figure it out even in your 20s like I say if you're 30 you can be the CEO of

I say if you're 30 you can be the CEO of I say if you're 30 you can be the CEO of an AI startup that's literally changing an AI startup that's literally changing an AI startup that's literally changing the world but in the church you're still the world but in the church you're still the world but in the church you're still in the youth group but to your point uh in the youth group but to your point uh in the youth group but to your point uh someone who hired a you know a someone who hired a you know a someone who hired a you know a millennial or or gen Z who hired someone millennial or or gen Z who hired someone millennial or or gen Z who hired someone older to teach I do not do guest older to teach I do not do guest older to teach I do not do guest preaching I always say no I rarely get preaching I always say no I rarely get preaching I always say no I rarely get asked because I always say know but asked because I always say know but asked because I always say know but there's a guy I've gotten to know who's there's a guy I've gotten to know who's there's a guy I've gotten to know who's 30 the average age of his church is 25 30 the average age of his church is 25 30 the average age of his church is 25 and he was texting me the other day and and he was texting me the other day and and he was texting me the other day and he goes you wouldn't be willing to do a he goes you wouldn't be willing to do a he goes you wouldn't be willing to do a message like we desperately need someone message like we desperately need someone message like we desperately need someone your age in this church and I'm like you your age in this church and I'm like you your age in this church and I'm like you know for you yes and uh it's nice to be know for you yes and uh it's nice to be know for you yes and uh it's nice to be recruited for that but uh yeah and I recruited for that but uh yeah and I recruited for that but uh yeah and I when when I've taught at connectus it's when when I've taught at connectus it's when when I've taught at connectus it's been a while I have specifically been a while I have specifically been a while I have specifically convened focus groups of genz teenagers convened focus groups of genz teenagers convened focus groups of genz teenagers people in their 20s to like test my people in their 20s to like test my people in their 20s to like test my ideas and update my sense of reality to ideas and update my sense of reality to ideas and update my sense of reality to make sure I'm not talking like some old make sure I'm not talking like some old make sure I'm not talking like some old white guy you know who doesn't know what white guy you know who doesn't know what white guy you know who doesn't know what he's doing or lives in the can I offer he's doing or lives in the can I offer he's doing or lives in the can I offer one more illustration besides younging one more illustration besides younging one more illustration besides younging up the preaching team uh this is from up the preaching team uh this is from up the preaching team uh this is from heart of God Church in Singapore which heart of God Church in Singapore which heart of God Church in Singapore which like so many Church plants you know like so many Church plants you know like so many Church plants you know start off young youth group that kind of start off young youth group that kind of start off young youth group that kind of grows into a congregation and they kind grows into a congregation and they kind grows into a congregation and they kind of all age together and then one day you of all age together and then one day you of all age together and then one day you look around and go where's the next look around and go where's the next look around and go where's the next generation of young people and it's generation of young people and it's generation of young people and it's because you haven't done it they this because you haven't done it they this because you haven't done it they this church every three years restarts it church every three years restarts it church every three years restarts it youth group I mean it's an all Church youth group I mean it's an all Church youth group I mean it's an all Church Focus to say we're going to start a Focus to say we're going to start a Focus to say we're going to start a whole new cohort you can't be a lay

whole new cohort you can't be a lay whole new cohort you can't be a lay leader and and just shift down to the leader and and just shift down to the leader and and just shift down to the next one it's got to be a whole new next one it's got to be a whole new next one it's got to be a whole new crowd and they have seven different crowd and they have seven different crowd and they have seven different times rebuilt the youth group to start times rebuilt the youth group to start times rebuilt the youth group to start over and to start a new cohort coming over and to start a new cohort coming over and to start a new cohort coming through the church now meanwhile the through the church now meanwhile the through the church now meanwhile the senior pastors husband and wife they're senior pastors husband and wife they're senior pastors husband and wife they're aging they they can't go back to three aging they they can't go back to three aging they they can't go back to three years but because the youth group is the years but because the youth group is the years but because the youth group is the average age in the church has remained average age in the church has remained average age in the church has remained in its 20s low 20s at that for the life in its 20s low 20s at that for the life in its 20s low 20s at that for the life of the church at 20 years and counting of the church at 20 years and counting of the church at 20 years and counting which I just think is a brilliant which I just think is a brilliant which I just think is a brilliant strategy for keeping the church Young strategy for keeping the church Young strategy for keeping the church Young when we have this human problem of when we have this human problem of when we have this human problem of leaders getting older you know and what leaders getting older you know and what leaders getting older you know and what I'm hearing in that in all of your I'm hearing in that in all of your I'm hearing in that in all of your examples is intentionality examples is intentionality examples is intentionality intentionality intentionality this does intentionality intentionality this does intentionality intentionality this does not happen by osmosis by accident or by not happen by osmosis by accident or by not happen by osmosis by accident or by hope uh it happens because you take hope uh it happens because you take hope uh it happens because you take action I want to talk a little bit about action I want to talk a little bit about action I want to talk a little bit about the new apologetic I'm kind of the new apologetic I'm kind of the new apologetic I'm kind of fascinated by fascinated by fascinated by apologetics I feel like that is what apologetics I feel like that is what apologetics I feel like that is what you're doing if you're preaching if you're doing if you're preaching if you're doing if you're preaching if you're actually doing evangelism what you're actually doing evangelism what you're actually doing evangelism what needs to change in apologetics why and needs to change in apologetics why and needs to change in apologetics why and what is the new apologetics the pause is because that's apologetics the pause is because that's such a good question and such an such a good question and such an such a good question and such an important question and I don't Dell are important question and I don't Dell are important question and I don't Dell are you bursting to start I am not you go you bursting to start I am not you go you bursting to start I am not you go right right right ahead GNA touch this yeah so okay first ahead GNA touch this yeah so okay first ahead GNA touch this yeah so okay first it's moved from inside the church to the

it's moved from inside the church to the it's moved from inside the church to the outside so I I'm GNA make up a scenario outside so I I'm GNA make up a scenario outside so I I'm GNA make up a scenario 50 years ago what would be the killer 50 years ago what would be the killer 50 years ago what would be the killer thing that that I could invite you to my thing that that I could invite you to my thing that that I could invite you to my church oh we support all these church oh we support all these church oh we support all these missionaries overseas well I got to be a missionaries overseas well I got to be a missionaries overseas well I got to be a part of a church like that well maybe 10 part of a church like that well maybe 10 part of a church like that well maybe 10 years later oh we have this killer choir years later oh we have this killer choir years later oh we have this killer choir you know you'd really love to see it you know you'd really love to see it you know you'd really love to see it experience it okay 10 years later we experience it okay 10 years later we experience it okay 10 years later we have this killer uh children's ministry have this killer uh children's ministry have this killer uh children's ministry a youth group again this is all inside a youth group again this is all inside a youth group again this is all inside the church now getting more recent the church now getting more recent the church now getting more recent where're our church is just killing it where're our church is just killing it where're our church is just killing it with a soup kitchen oh this is outside with a soup kitchen oh this is outside with a soup kitchen oh this is outside the church that's what's the wow factor the church that's what's the wow factor the church that's what's the wow factor that causes my neighbor to say oh oh that causes my neighbor to say oh oh that causes my neighbor to say oh oh tell me more about this Faith you do tell me more about this Faith you do tell me more about this Faith you do good tell me about the God behind the good tell me about the God behind the good tell me about the God behind the good today it's even more so well we do good today it's even more so well we do good today it's even more so well we do advocacy for the homeless or for people advocacy for the homeless or for people advocacy for the homeless or for people caught in sex trafficking or or Justice caught in sex trafficking or or Justice caught in sex trafficking or or Justice Ministries in fact today's generation Ministries in fact today's generation Ministries in fact today's generation even in Evangelical churches if there even in Evangelical churches if there even in Evangelical churches if there isn't some kind of Justice isn't some kind of Justice isn't some kind of Justice emphasis there's a holess uh feeling of emphasis there's a holess uh feeling of emphasis there's a holess uh feeling of well something's not quite right here well something's not quite right here well something's not quite right here are we really living out the fullness of are we really living out the fullness of are we really living out the fullness of the Gospel of yes salvation individual the Gospel of yes salvation individual the Gospel of yes salvation individual but the implications of that for the but the implications of that for the but the implications of that for the world around us so all let to say I'm world around us so all let to say I'm world around us so all let to say I'm seeing more and more churches carry seeing more and more churches carry seeing more and more churches carry their apologetic outside their walls their apologetic outside their walls their apologetic outside their walls it's not just invite a friend in it's not just invite a friend in it's not just invite a friend in it we've all probably even preached the it we've all probably even preached the it we've all probably even preached the analogy it used to be you know is it analogy it used to be you know is it analogy it used to be you know is it true and then uh a generation later is

true and then uh a generation later is true and then uh a generation later is is it is it right and and today it's is it is it right and and today it's is it is it right and and today it's it's is it good you know is religion is it's is it good you know is religion is it's is it good you know is religion is your religion in particular good for our your religion in particular good for our your religion in particular good for our community and and what the twist is is community and and what the twist is is community and and what the twist is is good for how I Define good you know in good for how I Define good you know in good for how I Define good you know in in my sense of what would be good for in my sense of what would be good for in my sense of what would be good for this community does your church this community does your church this community does your church contribute to that or are you a contribute to that or are you a contribute to that or are you a detractor to that so the more churches detractor to that so the more churches detractor to that so the more churches are able to say that that the cup of are able to say that that the cup of are able to say that that the cup of cold water the the Matthew 5:18 let your cold water the the Matthew 5:18 let your cold water the the Matthew 5:18 let your light so shine before men that they will light so shine before men that they will light so shine before men that they will see your good works and see your good see your good works and see your good see your good works and see your good works and glorify your father in Heaven works and glorify your father in Heaven works and glorify your father in Heaven and I I heard the story and I'll land on and I I heard the story and I'll land on and I I heard the story and I'll land on this of of a school leader a principal I this of of a school leader a principal I this of of a school leader a principal I think it was coming to the church and think it was coming to the church and think it was coming to the church and saying I'm not a religious person but I saying I'm not a religious person but I saying I'm not a religious person but I thank God for for this church because of thank God for for this church because of thank God for for this church because of all the good that your church has done all the good that your church has done all the good that your church has done for my school and your tutoring and for my school and your tutoring and for my school and your tutoring and you're fixing up the Teachers Lounge and you're fixing up the Teachers Lounge and you're fixing up the Teachers Lounge and all the things you've done um you are all the things you've done um you are all the things you've done um you are such a welcome piece of this community such a welcome piece of this community such a welcome piece of this community and churches which have been pushed by and churches which have been pushed by and churches which have been pushed by Society to the edges have to re earn Society to the edges have to re earn Society to the edges have to re earn that spot to say you know this is how we that spot to say you know this is how we that spot to say you know this is how we contribute to the public good in the contribute to the public good in the contribute to the public good in the name of Jesus and we'd love to tell you name of Jesus and we'd love to tell you name of Jesus and we'd love to tell you about him the only thing might add is about him the only thing might add is about him the only thing might add is that our our co-author Daniel Yang that our our co-author Daniel Yang that our our co-author Daniel Yang explained how those apologetics explained how those apologetics explained how those apologetics conferences of decades ago were the conferences of decades ago were the conferences of decades ago were the thing where you'd have certain people thing where you'd have certain people thing where you'd have certain people who were just known as apologists of the

who were just known as apologists of the who were just known as apologists of the faith were would have debates with faith were would have debates with faith were would have debates with people who were known as atheists and people who were known as atheists and people who were known as atheists and that was like drawing a crowd you know that was like drawing a crowd you know that was like drawing a crowd you know certain academic circles Etc and now certain academic circles Etc and now certain academic circles Etc and now we're like in a completely different we're like in a completely different we're like in a completely different phase and that new apologetics is in phase and that new apologetics is in phase and that new apologetics is in some ways that older one again related some ways that older one again related some ways that older one again related to Alpha places where people can have to Alpha places where people can have to Alpha places where people can have smaller discussions and understand the smaller discussions and understand the smaller discussions and understand the faith in a more um uh intimate setting faith in a more um uh intimate setting faith in a more um uh intimate setting you might say and um in fact the word you might say and um in fact the word you might say and um in fact the word good came up David coup the pastor of good came up David coup the pastor of good came up David coup the pastor of that church in Coastal Church in that church in Coastal Church in that church in Coastal Church in Vancouver he talked about how people Vancouver he talked about how people Vancouver he talked about how people felt like they found the good as he put felt like they found the good as he put felt like they found the good as he put it in their faith by studying with this it in their faith by studying with this it in their faith by studying with this small group and understanding better and small group and understanding better and small group and understanding better and meeting with people over a meal and meeting with people over a meal and meeting with people over a meal and being able to ask whatever they wanted being able to ask whatever they wanted being able to ask whatever they wanted to ask and that was the other part of it to ask and that was the other part of it to ask and that was the other part of it is that when you're letting people learn is that when you're letting people learn is that when you're letting people learn about the faith if you let them ask about the faith if you let them ask about the faith if you let them ask whatever that means people will be free whatever that means people will be free whatever that means people will be free free and feel like they can ask things free and feel like they can ask things free and feel like they can ask things they might never have been comfortable they might never have been comfortable they might never have been comfortable asking before and that's another piece asking before and that's another piece asking before and that's another piece of it as well H yeah and I I EO with of it as well H yeah and I I EO with of it as well H yeah and I I EO with that you know living in a post-christian that you know living in a post-christian that you know living in a post-christian culture my whole life uh being Canadian culture my whole life uh being Canadian culture my whole life uh being Canadian spent a ton of time in the US and abroad spent a ton of time in the US and abroad spent a ton of time in the US and abroad but that really resonates one of the top but that really resonates one of the top but that really resonates one of the top objections is is this God even good objections is is this God even good objections is is this God even good because most of the Christians I know because most of the Christians I know because most of the Christians I know are kind of mean and judgmental and are kind of mean and judgmental and are kind of mean and judgmental and hypocritical or I don't know any hypocritical or I don't know any hypocritical or I don't know any Christians so what are you guys about Christians so what are you guys about Christians so what are you guys about and you know to to paraphrase Tom and you know to to paraphrase Tom and you know to to paraphrase Tom Holland uh and his book Dominion uh Holland uh and his book Dominion uh Holland uh and his book Dominion uh Christianity has done definitely a lot Christianity has done definitely a lot Christianity has done definitely a lot of bad in the name of Jesus but the of bad in the name of Jesus but the of bad in the name of Jesus but the ethic that most people would consider

ethic that most people would consider ethic that most people would consider good is inherently Christian and good is inherently Christian and good is inherently Christian and sometimes we forget that um I would be sometimes we forget that um I would be sometimes we forget that um I would be Remis just before you leave can I give Remis just before you leave can I give Remis just before you leave can I give you a Canadian illustration the largest you a Canadian illustration the largest you a Canadian illustration the largest attendance church in Canada I'm attendance church in Canada I'm attendance church in Canada I'm interviewing several of their staff interviewing several of their staff interviewing several of their staff tomorrow about their Outreach and they tomorrow about their Outreach and they tomorrow about their Outreach and they said oh we are multi prong let us tell said oh we are multi prong let us tell said oh we are multi prong let us tell you our our most effective Outreach and you our our most effective Outreach and you our our most effective Outreach and they have a compassion Ministry group they have a compassion Ministry group they have a compassion Ministry group that that feeds the homeless they have a that that feeds the homeless they have a that that feeds the homeless they have a new Canadian friendship Hub which is new Canadian friendship Hub which is new Canadian friendship Hub which is about immigrants and helping them on the about immigrants and helping them on the about immigrants and helping them on the way in they have uh discipleship and way in they have uh discipleship and way in they have uh discipleship and Outreach which is characterized by Alpha Outreach which is characterized by Alpha Outreach which is characterized by Alpha they have disability Ministry people they have disability Ministry people they have disability Ministry people with special needs um churches that do with special needs um churches that do with special needs um churches that do that Ministry well are just like magnets that Ministry well are just like magnets that Ministry well are just like magnets and then they have a Sports Ministry uh and then they have a Sports Ministry uh and then they have a Sports Ministry uh to their community and and like between to their community and and like between to their community and and like between all those prongs they're all feeders to all those prongs they're all feeders to all those prongs they're all feeders to connect people at their point of felt connect people at their point of felt connect people at their point of felt need to show how the gospel makes a need to show how the gospel makes a need to show how the gospel makes a difference in day-to-day life so if difference in day-to-day life so if difference in day-to-day life so if you're free to say I have to ask which you're free to say I have to ask which you're free to say I have to ask which church is that Henry Shore is the pastor church is that Henry Shore is the pastor church is that Henry Shore is the pastor Center Street Church and I believe Center Street Church and I believe Center Street Church and I believe that's the largest attendance church in that's the largest attendance church in that's the largest attendance church in Canada right now amazing amazing he's Canada right now amazing amazing he's Canada right now amazing amazing he's been there for a long time too it's been there for a long time too it's been there for a long time too it's great great to see I believe they're great great to see I believe they're great great to see I believe they're Calgary yeah Calgary yeah Calgary yeah um I want to ask about digital Ministry um I want to ask about digital Ministry um I want to ask about digital Ministry because that's something the church kind because that's something the church kind because that's something the church kind of dove into head first five years ago of dove into head first five years ago of dove into head first five years ago for obvious reasons and now people are for obvious reasons and now people are for obvious reasons and now people are feeling skittish about it again uh got

feeling skittish about it again uh got feeling skittish about it again uh got some of the latest stuff from Craig some of the latest stuff from Craig some of the latest stuff from Craig relle and Life Church on a recent relle and Life Church on a recent relle and Life Church on a recent interview which will already have aired interview which will already have aired interview which will already have aired by the time uh this airs uh so you can by the time uh this airs uh so you can by the time uh this airs uh so you can scroll back and get that uh I mean scroll back and get that uh I mean scroll back and get that uh I mean they're embracing it Craig said it so they're embracing it Craig said it so they're embracing it Craig said it so well to me a few years ago 100% in on well to me a few years ago 100% in on well to me a few years ago 100% in on person 100% sent in on digital what are person 100% sent in on digital what are person 100% sent in on digital what are you learning about digital Ministry and you learning about digital Ministry and you learning about digital Ministry and effective Ministry in the mid you know effective Ministry in the mid you know effective Ministry in the mid you know second quarter of the 21st second quarter of the 21st second quarter of the 21st century um I wrote about a church called century um I wrote about a church called century um I wrote about a church called imagine church that really thinks imagine church that really thinks imagine church that really thinks outside the box about digital Ministry outside the box about digital Ministry outside the box about digital Ministry um so much so that they are almost um so much so that they are almost um so much so that they are almost completely digital and they have completely digital and they have completely digital and they have communities that are those little faces communities that are those little faces communities that are those little faces on a zoom screen in fact they say if it on a zoom screen in fact they say if it on a zoom screen in fact they say if it gets over like the nine or so where you gets over like the nine or so where you gets over like the nine or so where you can see people well that they want to can see people well that they want to can see people well that they want to have another group form because they have another group form because they have another group form because they want people to have that intimate want people to have that intimate want people to have that intimate connection and one of the things they connection and one of the things they connection and one of the things they did which it's pretty interesting I did which it's pretty interesting I did which it's pretty interesting I think is how they got started is they think is how they got started is they think is how they got started is they started a sermon and then they paused started a sermon and then they paused started a sermon and then they paused and they asked the group to talk about and they asked the group to talk about and they asked the group to talk about the sermon and figure out how it applied the sermon and figure out how it applied the sermon and figure out how it applied to them before the the the preacher went to them before the the the preacher went to them before the the the preacher went on and the early example was back when on and the early example was back when on and the early example was back when there were wildfires previously in there were wildfires previously in there were wildfires previously in California and the people were able to California and the people were able to California and the people were able to talk in their group in California about talk in their group in California about talk in their group in California about how they were going to help minister to how they were going to help minister to how they were going to help minister to people at that time and so one of the people at that time and so one of the people at that time and so one of the ministers Justin Cloud was saying that's ministers Justin Cloud was saying that's ministers Justin Cloud was saying that's Church you know they're figuring out Church you know they're figuring out Church you know they're figuring out what to do in a way that if they're what to do in a way that if they're what to do in a way that if they're located in other places pastors that located in other places pastors that located in other places pastors that they can't can't do and so there is an they can't can't do and so there is an they can't can't do and so there is an assumption that when you have a digital

assumption that when you have a digital assumption that when you have a digital community that you can't have a real community that you can't have a real community that you can't have a real community and one of my uh favorite community and one of my uh favorite community and one of my uh favorite examples of that story is that these examples of that story is that these examples of that story is that these people actually meet all across the week people actually meet all across the week people actually meet all across the week different different days of the week and different different days of the week and different different days of the week and from different places across the country from different places across the country from different places across the country and in one instance a gentleman lost his and in one instance a gentleman lost his and in one instance a gentleman lost his wife she passed away and the people in wife she passed away and the people in wife she passed away and the people in his group wanted to do something for him his group wanted to do something for him his group wanted to do something for him even though they didn't live nearby and even though they didn't live nearby and even though they didn't live nearby and they collected like an enough for like they collected like an enough for like they collected like an enough for like an Uber Eats gift card and one of the an Uber Eats gift card and one of the an Uber Eats gift card and one of the people in the community was a flight people in the community was a flight people in the community was a flight attendant and she made a stop over and attendant and she made a stop over and attendant and she made a stop over and delivered the card to the man in person delivered the card to the man in person delivered the card to the man in person so that's just totally thinking outside so that's just totally thinking outside so that's just totally thinking outside the box and an example of how you can the box and an example of how you can the box and an example of how you can still really be together even if you're still really be together even if you're still really be together even if you're physically a part in a digital physically a part in a digital physically a part in a digital Ministry War how about you what are you Ministry War how about you what are you Ministry War how about you what are you seeing well I'll start with a personal seeing well I'll start with a personal seeing well I'll start with a personal example my wife and I lead a uh couples example my wife and I lead a uh couples example my wife and I lead a uh couples of the Old Testament marriage class and of the Old Testament marriage class and of the Old Testament marriage class and we kicked it off in person we're doing we kicked it off in person we're doing we kicked it off in person we're doing it uh by Zoom during the uh couples of it uh by Zoom during the uh couples of it uh by Zoom during the uh couples of the Old Testament I'm just getting like the Old Testament I'm just getting like the Old Testament I'm just getting like 17 wives in my head what what is that 17 wives in my head what what is that 17 wives in my head what what is that Warren Adam and Eve okay the blame game Warren Adam and Eve okay the blame game Warren Adam and Eve okay the blame game Abraham and Sarah waiting on God for a Abraham and Sarah waiting on God for a Abraham and Sarah waiting on God for a promise that didn't happen good promise that didn't happen good promise that didn't happen good clarification we can they're the issues clarification we can they're the issues clarification we can they're the issues they dealt with then are just as real as they dealt with then are just as real as they dealt with then are just as real as the ones we need to deal with and just the ones we need to deal with and just the ones we need to deal with and just as bizarre too but any people you know as bizarre too but any people you know as bizarre too but any people you know put their kids in bed and uh and then

put their kids in bed and uh and then put their kids in bed and uh and then flop on the sofa next to each other and flop on the sofa next to each other and flop on the sofa next to each other and do it by Zoom they couldn't do it if do it by Zoom they couldn't do it if do it by Zoom they couldn't do it if they had to get a sitter every week and they had to get a sitter every week and they had to get a sitter every week and all so that integration and we'll then all so that integration and we'll then all so that integration and we'll then we'll have a happily ever after um we'll have a happily ever after um we'll have a happily ever after um in-person Gathering party when it's all in-person Gathering party when it's all in-person Gathering party when it's all done so that integration of inperson and done so that integration of inperson and done so that integration of inperson and the hybrid that Adele spoke of is the hybrid that Adele spoke of is the hybrid that Adele spoke of is constant but what about what about those constant but what about what about those constant but what about what about those churches that are having people at churches that are having people at churches that are having people at distances and unable to come in person distances and unable to come in person distances and unable to come in person and uh just because of of drive time so and uh just because of of drive time so and uh just because of of drive time so we uh ecfa did a study took the like we uh ecfa did a study took the like we uh ecfa did a study took the like Outreach 100 fastest growing churches Outreach 100 fastest growing churches Outreach 100 fastest growing churches and we said all right how many of you and we said all right how many of you and we said all right how many of you have more people have more people have more people online than in person on Sundays and online than in person on Sundays and online than in person on Sundays and your online is growing faster and and your online is growing faster and and your online is growing faster and and there were churches with a thousand plus there were churches with a thousand plus there were churches with a thousand plus in person and in person and in person and thousands uh online and the logic as um thousands uh online and the logic as um thousands uh online and the logic as um uh one of the pastors from uh uh what uh one of the pastors from uh uh what uh one of the pastors from uh uh what was the result of that most people had was the result of that most people had was the result of that most people had more people online or fewer well this more people online or fewer well this more people online or fewer well this was a very select group yeah this was was a very select group yeah this was was a very select group yeah this was fastrowing entrepreneurial churches they fastrowing entrepreneurial churches they fastrowing entrepreneurial churches they did have it was like half and half uh did have it was like half and half uh did have it was like half and half uh but all of them were shifting to say our but all of them were shifting to say our but all of them were shifting to say our staffing our our our structure our staffing our our our structure our staffing our our our structure our discipleship you know we have to rethink discipleship you know we have to rethink discipleship you know we have to rethink all of this for how do we serve the all of this for how do we serve the all of this for how do we serve the growing crowd online the logic and

growing crowd online the logic and growing crowd online the logic and because everybody begins with you know because everybody begins with you know because everybody begins with you know is this biblical and all says start with is this biblical and all says start with is this biblical and all says start with the Apostle Paul he said in his letters the Apostle Paul he said in his letters the Apostle Paul he said in his letters look I'd love to be there in person I'd look I'd love to be there in person I'd look I'd love to be there in person I'd love to disciple you in person but I love to disciple you in person but I love to disciple you in person but I can't so I'm going to write a letter and can't so I'm going to write a letter and can't so I'm going to write a letter and show you what to do I want you to do show you what to do I want you to do show you what to do I want you to do these things by the power of the Holy these things by the power of the Holy these things by the power of the Holy Spirit and when I get there we'll talk Spirit and when I get there we'll talk Spirit and when I get there we'll talk about it some more so it's discipleship about it some more so it's discipleship about it some more so it's discipleship can happen remotely that was remote for can happen remotely that was remote for can happen remotely that was remote for back then parchment letters so how is it back then parchment letters so how is it back then parchment letters so how is it being done being done being done today and what churches are doing is today and what churches are doing is today and what churches are doing is fascinating and we we wrote that up you fascinating and we we wrote that up you fascinating and we we wrote that up you can ecfa can ecfa can ecfa toorgle you can find three reports where toorgle you can find three reports where toorgle you can find three reports where we highlight what churches are doing and we highlight what churches are doing and we highlight what churches are doing and frankly a webinar where I talked to frankly a webinar where I talked to frankly a webinar where I talked to about six different churches including about six different churches including about six different churches including Crossroads and sandals elevation Crossroads and sandals elevation Crossroads and sandals elevation Elevation Church says they're they're Elevation Church says they're they're Elevation Church says they're they're again an outlier but they say more than again an outlier but they say more than again an outlier but they say more than half the half the half the people more than no just up to half of people more than no just up to half of people more than no just up to half of their giving comes from people who live their giving comes from people who live their giving comes from people who live more than a 100 miles from any campus more than a 100 miles from any campus more than a 100 miles from any campus wow process that so is this a group we wow process that so is this a group we wow process that so is this a group we can disciple can we can we get them into can disciple can we can we get them into can disciple can we can we get them into house watch parties or any other kind of house watch parties or any other kind of house watch parties or any other kind of gatherings to inperson them or to gatherings to inperson them or to gatherings to inperson them or to disciple them online and I am convinced disciple them online and I am convinced disciple them online and I am convinced that the entrepreneurs are finding that the entrepreneurs are finding that the entrepreneurs are finding breakthroughs and as in just a matter of

breakthroughs and as in just a matter of breakthroughs and as in just a matter of years we'll have lots more strong models years we'll have lots more strong models years we'll have lots more strong models of how do we effectively do of how do we effectively do of how do we effectively do discipleship online and in person and discipleship online and in person and discipleship online and in person and truly the world can be my parish for truly the world can be my parish for truly the world can be my parish for almost any church another great example almost any church another great example almost any church another great example of that uh is church home I just came of that uh is church home I just came of that uh is church home I just came back from a week with some of their core back from a week with some of their core back from a week with some of their core team and key people and what they're team and key people and what they're team and key people and what they're doing they've taken a lot of criticism doing they've taken a lot of criticism doing they've taken a lot of criticism for it but basically pivoting to a for it but basically pivoting to a for it but basically pivoting to a digital first strategy I think is digital first strategy I think is digital first strategy I think is breaking ground for the church so you're breaking ground for the church so you're breaking ground for the church so you're right there's some outliers who are right there's some outliers who are right there's some outliers who are innovating they're winning on some innovating they're winning on some innovating they're winning on some fronts failing falling down picking fronts failing falling down picking fronts failing falling down picking themselves back up getting back up and themselves back up getting back up and themselves back up getting back up and figuring it out and I think we'll have a figuring it out and I think we'll have a figuring it out and I think we'll have a lot to export to the church but that lot to export to the church but that lot to export to the church but that shouldn't stop small churches from shouldn't stop small churches from shouldn't stop small churches from experimenting absolutely and I wanted to experimenting absolutely and I wanted to experimenting absolutely and I wanted to point out one thing I forgot to mention point out one thing I forgot to mention point out one thing I forgot to mention about imagine church and that is that about imagine church and that is that about imagine church and that is that some of the people who are in these some of the people who are in these some of the people who are in these Community groups are ill and unable to Community groups are ill and unable to Community groups are ill and unable to leave the house like people with Ms they leave the house like people with Ms they leave the house like people with Ms they still want to go to church but they just still want to go to church but they just still want to go to church but they just can't go to church and so this ministry can't go to church and so this ministry can't go to church and so this ministry has recognized that and and you can hear has recognized that and and you can hear has recognized that and and you can hear the caring and the voice of these the caring and the voice of these the caring and the voice of these pastors four people like that who are a pastors four people like that who are a pastors four people like that who are a part of the church and any size church part of the church and any size church part of the church and any size church is the case I think the smallest church is the case I think the smallest church is the case I think the smallest church that took the survey uh was just like 60 that took the survey uh was just like 60 that took the survey uh was just like 60 people and and it was I if I remember people and and it was I if I remember people and and it was I if I remember right a right a right a Pakistani believer married to an Pakistani believer married to an Pakistani believer married to an American and he said you wouldn't

American and he said you wouldn't American and he said you wouldn't believe with the internet how we have believe with the internet how we have believe with the internet how we have found other churches where Pakistani found other churches where Pakistani found other churches where Pakistani Believers and Americans are together and Believers and Americans are together and Believers and Americans are together and they're we're trying to figure out you they're we're trying to figure out you they're we're trying to figure out you know how do we tailor Church to our know how do we tailor Church to our know how do we tailor Church to our cultures and all and we're networking cultures and all and we're networking cultures and all and we're networking with each other all over the world and with each other all over the world and with each other all over the world and it's so exciting so that's their Niche it's so exciting so that's their Niche it's so exciting so that's their Niche and isn't that awesome you know that is and isn't that awesome you know that is and isn't that awesome you know that is such a good point because no matter what such a good point because no matter what such a good point because no matter what your Niche is and this is a good word your Niche is and this is a good word your Niche is and this is a good word for small churches like you've mentioned for small churches like you've mentioned for small churches like you've mentioned uh the church that had Ministry to uh the church that had Ministry to uh the church that had Ministry to disabled people Ministry to the sick but disabled people Ministry to the sick but disabled people Ministry to the sick but you know you think about people who are you know you think about people who are you know you think about people who are hobbyists right I have a few friends who hobbyists right I have a few friends who hobbyists right I have a few friends who are deep into cycling or deep into are deep into cycling or deep into are deep into cycling or deep into electronic dance music and I mean they electronic dance music and I mean they electronic dance music and I mean they connect with people around the world connect with people around the world connect with people around the world around their Hobby and they know them I around their Hobby and they know them I around their Hobby and they know them I you know one of my good friends is a you know one of my good friends is a you know one of my good friends is a coffee Enthusiast he knows people coffee Enthusiast he knows people coffee Enthusiast he knows people literally all over the world who geek literally all over the world who geek literally all over the world who geek out about coffee and if you think about out about coffee and if you think about out about coffee and if you think about it those people want to connect so the it those people want to connect so the it those people want to connect so the fact that there's a Pakistani spouse and fact that there's a Pakistani spouse and fact that there's a Pakistani spouse and an American spouse yeah there's not just an American spouse yeah there's not just an American spouse yeah there's not just two of them I mean you can you can find two of them I mean you can you can find two of them I mean you can you can find your Niche Community almost anywhere your Niche Community almost anywhere your Niche Community almost anywhere online so I got to ask you as we wrap up online so I got to ask you as we wrap up online so I got to ask you as we wrap up we've covered a lot of ground when we've covered a lot of ground when we've covered a lot of ground when you're thinking about I'm going to call you're thinking about I'm going to call you're thinking about I'm going to call the meta skills okay what are some of the meta skills okay what are some of the meta skills okay what are some of the overarching skills that you think the overarching skills that you think the overarching skills that you think church leaders need to develop to be church leaders need to develop to be church leaders need to develop to be ready for a future ready Church to get

ready for a future ready Church to get ready for a future ready Church to get their Church ready what are couple of their Church ready what are couple of their Church ready what are couple of strategies qualities strategies qualities strategies qualities characteristics that they should embrace characteristics that they should embrace characteristics that they should embrace to get ready for what's to get ready for what's to get ready for what's ahead I'd say first is to not let it be ahead I'd say first is to not let it be ahead I'd say first is to not let it be thought that the pastor's doing thought that the pastor's doing thought that the pastor's doing everything the pastors leading everything the pastors leading everything the pastors leading everything it's really a family affair everything it's really a family affair everything it's really a family affair as some of the ministers have said they as some of the ministers have said they as some of the ministers have said they really want the church to be like a really want the church to be like a really want the church to be like a family which means everybody works and family which means everybody works and family which means everybody works and it also means it's not just the Usher at it also means it's not just the Usher at it also means it's not just the Usher at the door who welcomes people anybody can the door who welcomes people anybody can the door who welcomes people anybody can do that in the church if they just get do that in the church if they just get do that in the church if they just get up and stick out their hand so part of up and stick out their hand so part of up and stick out their hand so part of it is that it's a it's a corporate way it is that it's a it's a corporate way it is that it's a it's a corporate way of doing uh Church corporate small C I of doing uh Church corporate small C I of doing uh Church corporate small C I guess you'd say because it really should guess you'd say because it really should guess you'd say because it really should involve lots of different people whether involve lots of different people whether involve lots of different people whether it's the volunteers the lay people or it's the volunteers the lay people or it's the volunteers the lay people or the or ordained people so that nobody the or ordained people so that nobody the or ordained people so that nobody gets burned out because that is part of gets burned out because that is part of gets burned out because that is part of the problem and you know postco a lot of the problem and you know postco a lot of the problem and you know postco a lot of the volunteers didn't come back at first the volunteers didn't come back at first the volunteers didn't come back at first because for once they'd had a break you because for once they'd had a break you because for once they'd had a break you know like this is what yeah yes exactly know like this is what yeah yes exactly know like this is what yeah yes exactly so um really there is a a need for a so um really there is a a need for a so um really there is a a need for a different kind of mindset to help different kind of mindset to help different kind of mindset to help churches make it to the Future so the churches make it to the Future so the churches make it to the Future so the overarching theme of the becoming a overarching theme of the becoming a overarching theme of the becoming a future ready church is is be future ready church is is be future ready church is is be adaptive and don't do that alone find adaptive and don't do that alone find adaptive and don't do that alone find someone younger than you and explore someone younger than you and explore someone younger than you and explore adaptations together and we use the 1% adaptations together and we use the 1% adaptations together and we use the 1% factor to conclude each chapter by factor to conclude each chapter by factor to conclude each chapter by saying if you're in an airplane and saying if you're in an airplane and saying if you're in an airplane and you're just one degree off you're G to

you're just one degree off you're G to you're just one degree off you're G to end up in a totally different place but end up in a totally different place but end up in a totally different place but if but likewise if you could figure out if but likewise if you could figure out if but likewise if you could figure out just a 1% change in how you do Church in just a 1% change in how you do Church in just a 1% change in how you do Church in who you're reaching in the way you voice who you're reaching in the way you voice who you're reaching in the way you voice the message uh from scripture um and the message uh from scripture um and the message uh from scripture um and stay with that you're going to end up in stay with that you're going to end up in stay with that you're going to end up in a very different place and maybe it's a a very different place and maybe it's a a very different place and maybe it's a 2% or 3% o over time so you God has put 2% or 3% o over time so you God has put 2% or 3% o over time so you God has put in every Church a Next Generation that in every Church a Next Generation that in every Church a Next Generation that knows how to reach their peers that knows how to reach their peers that knows how to reach their peers that speaks the language of that culture in speaks the language of that culture in speaks the language of that culture in learning to work with them and doing learning to work with them and doing learning to work with them and doing continual experiments to say well let's continual experiments to say well let's continual experiments to say well let's try this over the summer let's try this try this over the summer let's try this try this over the summer let's try this for a season um you will find a way to for a season um you will find a way to for a season um you will find a way to be a church like to use a Canadian be a church like to use a Canadian be a church like to use a Canadian illustration Wayne Gretzky how do you illustration Wayne Gretzky how do you illustration Wayne Gretzky how do you win so many hockey Awards well I don't win so many hockey Awards well I don't win so many hockey Awards well I don't go to where the puck is go to where it's go to where the puck is go to where it's go to where the puck is go to where it's gonna be and likewise if we can see that gonna be and likewise if we can see that gonna be and likewise if we can see that the culture is moving towards valuing the culture is moving towards valuing the culture is moving towards valuing belonging as one of the many things belonging as one of the many things belonging as one of the many things we've talked about all right then let's we've talked about all right then let's we've talked about all right then let's figure out how to make the church the figure out how to make the church the figure out how to make the church the most belonging Place possible and let most belonging Place possible and let most belonging Place possible and let our younger Generations show us how to our younger Generations show us how to our younger Generations show us how to do that that's a good word the book is do that that's a good word the book is do that that's a good word the book is called becoming a future ready church called becoming a future ready church called becoming a future ready church it's available everywhere you can get it's available everywhere you can get it's available everywhere you can get books highly recommend Warren you've books highly recommend Warren you've books highly recommend Warren you've mentioned ecfa a few times you have mentioned ecfa a few times you have mentioned ecfa a few times you have produced so much research through them produced so much research through them produced so much research through them with them uh ecfa do org is the place to

with them uh ecfa do org is the place to with them uh ecfa do org is the place to go is the place to go cool the go is the place to go cool the go is the place to go cool the Evangelical Council for financial Evangelical Council for financial Evangelical Council for financial accountability those who are curious accountability those who are curious accountability those who are curious awesome and Adele how about you where is awesome and Adele how about you where is awesome and Adele how about you where is an easy place to track with you online an easy place to track with you online an easy place to track with you online these days you can follow what I write these days you can follow what I write these days you can follow what I write outside of the book at religionnews.com outside of the book at religionnews.com outside of the book at religionnews.com work for Religion News service and the work for Religion News service and the work for Religion News service and the projects editor and National reporter projects editor and National reporter projects editor and National reporter there have been for just about 30 years there have been for just about 30 years there have been for just about 30 years now that's incredible so can check out now that's incredible so can check out now that's incredible so can check out stories there by myself and my stories there by myself and my stories there by myself and my colleagues well thank you so much uh colleagues well thank you so much uh colleagues well thank you so much uh both of you really really appreciate it both of you really really appreciate it both of you really really appreciate it and you helped a lot of leaders today and you helped a lot of leaders today and you helped a lot of leaders today Carrie thanks for the privilege I listen Carrie thanks for the privilege I listen Carrie thanks for the privilege I listen to you I I I share your links I've to you I I I share your links I've to you I I I share your links I've learned so much thank you again thanks learned so much thank you again thanks learned so much thank you again thanks for the opportunity really appreciate it