The Reason Your Church Isn't Multiplying and Fresh Trends in Church Planting With Dave Ferguson

I think a lot of us have been influenced I think a lot of us have been influenced by business. Right. by business. Right. by business. Right. >> and I got no knocks. I love all the >> and I got no knocks. I love all the >> and I got no knocks. I love all the business stuff. But here's the part business stuff. But here's the part business stuff. But here's the part about business about business about business Business has taught us that you have a Business has taught us that you have a Business has taught us that you have a target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Here's the people we're target customer. Here's the people we're target customer. Here's the people we're going after. And while all our churches going after. And while all our churches going after. And while all our churches do this And if if the idea or the do this And if if the idea or the do this And if if the idea or the concept or whatever you're bringing in concept or whatever you're bringing in concept or whatever you're bringing in front of me doesn't fit what that person front of me doesn't fit what that person front of me doesn't fit what that person wants, what that person needs, then the wants, what that person needs, then the wants, what that person needs, then the answer's no cuz you have to say, you answer's no cuz you have to say, you answer's no cuz you have to say, you know, no to the theory so you can say know, no to the theory so you can say know, no to the theory so you can say yes to the great things. We've all heard yes to the great things. We've all heard yes to the great things. We've all heard that over and over again. that over and over again. that over and over again. That's partly true, but it's also That's partly true, but it's also That's partly true, but it's also that's not the way movement happens. that's not the way movement happens. that's not the way movement happens. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad [music] you joined Podcast. I'm so glad [music] you joined Podcast. I'm so glad [music] you joined us whether you're watching or whether us whether you're watching or whether us whether you're watching or whether you're listening. you're listening. you're listening. Welcome. And uh if you're new listener, Welcome. And uh if you're new listener, Welcome. And uh if you're new listener, you get a lot of new listeners every you get a lot of new listeners every you get a lot of new listeners every [music] month, make sure you hit follow [music] month, make sure you hit follow [music] month, make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching or or subscribe wherever you're watching or or subscribe wherever you're watching or listening because then listening because then listening because then you'll get great interviews like the one you'll get great interviews like the one you'll get great interviews like the one I have today with Dave Ferguson. So I I have today with Dave Ferguson. So I I have today with Dave Ferguson. So I came to Exponential this year [music] came to Exponential this year [music] came to Exponential this year [music] to try to figure out what's the latest to try to figure out what's the latest to try to figure out what's the latest in church planting and Dave's going to in church planting and Dave's going to in church planting and Dave's going to unpack that and [music] he's going to unpack that and [music] he's going to unpack that and [music] he's going to challenge a lot of our I'm going to say challenge a lot of our I'm going to say challenge a lot of our I'm going to say idols, like the [music] idols, like the [music] idols, like the [music] the mixed motives that live inside of the mixed motives that live inside of the mixed motives that live inside of us, the you know, if we really become a us, the you know, if we really become a us, the you know, if we really become a multiplying church, what happens if our multiplying church, what happens if our multiplying church, what happens if our best best best givers leave? What happens if our best givers leave? What happens if our best givers leave? What happens if our best leaders go and plant that other church?

leaders go and plant that other church? leaders go and plant that other church? Well, church planting has [music] also Well, church planting has [music] also Well, church planting has [music] also taken new forms. He's going to talk taken new forms. He's going to talk taken new forms. He's going to talk about micro church, how that's different about micro church, how that's different about micro church, how that's different from house churches, what's changing in from house churches, what's changing in from house churches, what's changing in the church planting space. So if you're the church planting space. So if you're the church planting space. So if you're a church planter, if you want to see a church planter, if you want to see a church planter, if you want to see your impact multiplied, this is going to your impact multiplied, this is going to your impact multiplied, this is going to be a great conversation. Dave Ferguson be a great conversation. Dave Ferguson be a great conversation. Dave Ferguson is the founding pastor of Community is the founding pastor of Community is the founding pastor of Community Christian, which has gone on from a Christian, which has gone on from a Christian, which has gone on from a handful of friends to reaching thousands handful of friends to reaching thousands handful of friends to reaching thousands of people in Chicago land. He founded of people in Chicago land. He founded of people in Chicago land. He founded that church with his brother John and that church with his brother John and that church with his brother John and just passed it off to the next just passed it off to the next just passed it off to the next generation of leaders. He is the generation of leaders. He is the generation of leaders. He is the president and CEO of Exponential, where president and CEO of Exponential, where president and CEO of Exponential, where we're filming this live backstage. So we're filming this live backstage. So we're filming this live backstage. So enjoy today's conversation with Dave enjoy today's conversation with Dave enjoy today's conversation with Dave Ferguson. I'm so glad you joined us Ferguson. I'm so glad you joined us Ferguson. I'm so glad you joined us today whether you are on the live feed today whether you are on the live feed today whether you are on the live feed for Exponential or whether you're for Exponential or whether you're for Exponential or whether you're listening via my podcast. We're listening via my podcast. We're listening via my podcast. We're backstage at Exponential and I'm here backstage at Exponential and I'm here backstage at Exponential and I'm here with Dave Ferguson. Dave, you know, you with Dave Ferguson. Dave, you know, you with Dave Ferguson. Dave, you know, you got one of those bios that just goes on got one of those bios that just goes on got one of those bios that just goes on and on and on. How do you Oh. I'm sure and on and on. How do you Oh. I'm sure and on and on. How do you Oh. I'm sure you got that. I wrote it myself. It you got that. I wrote it myself. It you got that. I wrote it myself. It could you were thinking yourself for could you were thinking yourself for could you were thinking yourself for bragging. But you know, the heart of bragging. But you know, the heart of bragging. But you know, the heart of Exponential for 25 years, church Exponential for 25 years, church Exponential for 25 years, church planter, pastor, planter, pastor, planter, pastor, somebody who's really involved in the somebody who's really involved in the somebody who's really involved in the church planting space and church planting space and church planting space and I want to open with this question, which I want to open with this question, which I want to open with this question, which is how have you seen church planting is how have you seen church planting is how have you seen church planting change over the last two decades? Cuz change over the last two decades? Cuz change over the last two decades? Cuz Exponential's in this form has been Exponential's in this form has been Exponential's in this form has been around for about 20 years, right?

around for about 20 years, right? around for about 20 years, right? Man, there's a number of things come to Man, there's a number of things come to Man, there's a number of things come to mind. I think when we first started mind. I think when we first started mind. I think when we first started uh Exponential, uh Exponential, uh Exponential, um it was kind of like the next gig for um it was kind of like the next gig for um it was kind of like the next gig for youth pastors. Okay. And what do you youth pastors. Okay. And what do you youth pastors. Okay. And what do you mean by that? Well, I mean so you'd be a mean by that? Well, I mean so you'd be a mean by that? Well, I mean so you'd be a youth pastor and and there was there was youth pastor and and there was there was youth pastor and and there was there was probably 15, 20 years ago probably 15, 20 years ago probably 15, 20 years ago uh uh uh a big emphasis on church planting and so a big emphasis on church planting and so a big emphasis on church planting and so everybody's like, oh, then they'd go everybody's like, oh, then they'd go everybody's like, oh, then they'd go have what we call an I C and U. Right. I have what we call an I C and U. Right. I have what we call an I C and U. Right. I have this I I have this I and U have this I I have this I and U have this I I have this I and U conversation with their youth pastor and conversation with their youth pastor and conversation with their youth pastor and so they would and then a lot of youth so they would and then a lot of youth so they would and then a lot of youth pastors would plant in churches. And pastors would plant in churches. And pastors would plant in churches. And that became kind of the pipeline. And that became kind of the pipeline. And that became kind of the pipeline. And then after all the youth pastors had then after all the youth pastors had then after all the youth pastors had done, um that's something where all of done, um that's something where all of done, um that's something where all of the sudden we're going like, oh, we have the sudden we're going like, oh, we have the sudden we're going like, oh, we have to develop an actual pipeline. And so to develop an actual pipeline. And so to develop an actual pipeline. And so that's when conversations really around that's when conversations really around that's when conversations really around leadership residency programs, leadership residency programs, leadership residency programs, conversations around how do we begin to conversations around how do we begin to conversations around how do we begin to look at every person in the pew as a look at every person in the pew as a look at every person in the pew as a multiplier, those things began to multiplier, those things began to multiplier, those things began to develop, which is where we we really are develop, which is where we we really are develop, which is where we we really are today, which today, which today, which I think is in some ways is great where I think is in some ways is great where I think is in some ways is great where the youth pastor goes like, oh, I feel a the youth pastor goes like, oh, I feel a the youth pastor goes like, oh, I feel a calling to go plant a church.

calling to go plant a church. calling to go plant a church. But I think it's even better to be in But I think it's even better to be in But I think it's even better to be in this position where we're really this position where we're really this position where we're really championing this idea of the priesthood championing this idea of the priesthood championing this idea of the priesthood of all believers. And I think the other of all believers. And I think the other of all believers. And I think the other thing I would ship thing I would ship thing I would ship I would say I would say I would say 10 to 15, 20, 15 to 20 years ago, 10 to 15, 20, 15 to 20 years ago, 10 to 15, 20, 15 to 20 years ago, most of the time we said church plant, most of the time we said church plant, most of the time we said church plant, you thought of one type. you thought of one type. you thought of one type. You thought of a launch large kind of You thought of a launch large kind of You thought of a launch large kind of expression. Mm. expression. Mm. expression. Mm. Um you do, you know, you get together a Um you do, you know, you get together a Um you do, you know, you get together a core team, you do the marketing, you core team, you do the marketing, you core team, you do the marketing, you pick a date nine months out and then you pick a date nine months out and then you pick a date nine months out and then you launch, hopefully 200 people or more. launch, hopefully 200 people or more. launch, hopefully 200 people or more. Right. That was kind of also Right. That was kind of also Right. That was kind of also predominant. Uh I think now predominant. Uh I think now predominant. Uh I think now we would say and we're trying to really we would say and we're trying to really we would say and we're trying to really encourage this, we need all kinds of encourage this, we need all kinds of encourage this, we need all kinds of churches for all kinds of people. And so churches for all kinds of people. And so churches for all kinds of people. And so I mean I mean I mean uh right before the Exponential uh right before the Exponential uh right before the Exponential conference was a micro church conference conference was a micro church conference conference was a micro church conference where they had record numbers of people where they had record numbers of people where they had record numbers of people that were showing up for that. Uh it's that were showing up for that. Uh it's that were showing up for that. Uh it's not just a uh kind of not just a uh kind of not just a uh kind of this kind of sidebar thing that a few this kind of sidebar thing that a few this kind of sidebar thing that a few people are doing. It's becoming a very people are doing. It's becoming a very people are doing. It's becoming a very much a reality even in the western much a reality even in the western much a reality even in the western landscape and I think it's an important landscape and I think it's an important landscape and I think it's an important part of the future. Uh so there's a lot part of the future. Uh so there's a lot part of the future. Uh so there's a lot of different and all the digital of different and all the digital of different and all the digital expressions of church are also that's expressions of church are also that's expressions of church are also that's something we didn't know about 20 years something we didn't know about 20 years something we didn't know about 20 years ago, which are clearly on the landscape.

ago, which are clearly on the landscape. ago, which are clearly on the landscape. So yeah, I think both the people that So yeah, I think both the people that So yeah, I think both the people that are planting churches has shifted and are planting churches has shifted and are planting churches has shifted and the kinds of churches that we're the kinds of churches that we're the kinds of churches that we're planting has shifted. Would you say it's planting has shifted. Would you say it's planting has shifted. Would you say it's easier to plant a church today than it easier to plant a church today than it easier to plant a church today than it was say 20 years ago or harder to plant was say 20 years ago or harder to plant was say 20 years ago or harder to plant a church today? a church today? a church today? I I'd probably ask you a question. What I I'd probably ask you a question. What I I'd probably ask you a question. What kind of church do you mean? Uh-huh. kind of church do you mean? Uh-huh. kind of church do you mean? Uh-huh. Yeah. What's under that question? Yeah. What's under that question? Yeah. What's under that question? Um Um Um I think if you're if and and also I think if you're if and and also I think if you're if and and also depends on the context. depends on the context. depends on the context. >> Sure. So let's I don't know. Where you >> Sure. So let's I don't know. Where you >> Sure. So let's I don't know. Where you want to go to Toronto? You want to go to want to go to Toronto? You want to go to want to go to Toronto? You want to go to Chicago? You want to go to the South? Chicago? You want to go to the South? Chicago? You want to go to the South? Yeah. In the South. Okay, we'll start in Yeah. In the South. Okay, we'll start in Yeah. In the South. Okay, we'll start in the South cuz that's where a lot of the the South cuz that's where a lot of the the South cuz that's where a lot of the large churches Yeah. large churches Yeah. large churches Yeah. And I think if you're one to start a a And I think if you're one to start a a And I think if you're one to start a a do a launch large kind of plant there, I do a launch large kind of plant there, I do a launch large kind of plant there, I think it is easier think it is easier think it is easier there than it is in Chicago or it is in there than it is in Chicago or it is in there than it is in Chicago or it is in Toronto, for example. I was talking to Toronto, for example. I was talking to Toronto, for example. I was talking to some New England church planters earlier some New England church planters earlier some New England church planters earlier this morning and I mean something like this morning and I mean something like this morning and I mean something like 3% of the population attends church 3% of the population attends church 3% of the population attends church still in New England. Yeah. still in New England. Yeah. still in New England. Yeah. I it's very under-serviced, I it's very under-serviced, I it's very under-serviced, under-churched, but they're seeing a bit under-churched, but they're seeing a bit under-churched, but they're seeing a bit of momentum. Oh, they are. And they got of momentum. Oh, they are. And they got of momentum. Oh, they are. And they got there and part of what's happening is there and part of what's happening is there and part of what's happening is there's multiple expressions that are there's multiple expressions that are there's multiple expressions that are that are using to plant churches today.

that are using to plant churches today. that are using to plant churches today. Cuz I think you're right, there was more Cuz I think you're right, there was more Cuz I think you're right, there was more of a box 20 years ago than there is now. of a box 20 years ago than there is now. of a box 20 years ago than there is now. So let's I mean you literally had church So let's I mean you literally had church So let's I mean you literally had church planting toolkits. And you said you had planting toolkits. And you said you had planting toolkits. And you said you had some of those, but it was kind of like, some of those, but it was kind of like, some of those, but it was kind of like, oh, here's the go-to. Yeah. And this is oh, here's the go-to. Yeah. And this is oh, here's the go-to. Yeah. And this is how you do it and here's the model and how you do it and here's the model and how you do it and here's the model and you got to get 200 people or more on a you got to get 200 people or more on a you got to get 200 people or more on a Sunday morning and that's one size fits Sunday morning and that's one size fits Sunday morning and that's one size fits all. Right. So now you've got different all. Right. So now you've got different all. Right. So now you've got different expressions of churches. So let's talk expressions of churches. So let's talk expressions of churches. So let's talk about micro churches. Cuz that that's about micro churches. Cuz that that's about micro churches. Cuz that that's been around for a little while. What are been around for a little while. What are been around for a little while. What are you seeing in the micro church? You you seeing in the micro church? You you seeing in the micro church? You know, you had that pre-conference. It know, you had that pre-conference. It know, you had that pre-conference. It seems like it wasn't a I want to be seems like it wasn't a I want to be seems like it wasn't a I want to be clear. It wasn't a pre-conference here. clear. It wasn't a pre-conference here. clear. It wasn't a pre-conference here. It was actually its own conference. It was actually its own conference. It was actually its own conference. Okay, that happened over the weekend Okay, that happened over the weekend Okay, that happened over the weekend just prior to this and we're very much just prior to this and we're very much just prior to this and we're very much supportive of it. Okay, so what what supportive of it. Okay, so what what supportive of it. Okay, so what what what is happening in the micro church what is happening in the micro church what is happening in the micro church movie? I think some of the things that movie? I think some of the things that movie? I think some of the things that are happening, um are happening, um are happening, um one is one is one is um um um let me get a little too deep here. One let me get a little too deep here. One let me get a little too deep here. One is they're they're thinking in terms of is they're they're thinking in terms of is they're they're thinking in terms of networks and then hubs. So like for networks and then hubs. So like for networks and then hubs. So like for example, if you talk about life, let's example, if you talk about life, let's example, if you talk about life, let's say in Kansas the Underground where Rob say in Kansas the Underground where Rob say in Kansas the Underground where Rob Wegner is who Rob's also part of our Wegner is who Rob's also part of our Wegner is who Rob's also part of our Exponential team, Exponential team, Exponential team, uh there's more than 100 micro churches, uh there's more than 100 micro churches, uh there's more than 100 micro churches, but they're all connected by hubs. I but they're all connected by hubs. I but they're all connected by hubs. I think one of the things is a little bit think one of the things is a little bit think one of the things is a little bit different now is it used to be like a different now is it used to be like a different now is it used to be like a micro church was kind of like a house micro church was kind of like a house micro church was kind of like a house church and the house church meant that I church and the house church meant that I church and the house church meant that I kind of hate church.

kind of hate church. kind of hate church. It's very It's very It's very That is a lot of host. And so yes, I That is a lot of host. And so yes, I That is a lot of host. And so yes, I hate church. Right. And so you wanted to hate church. Right. And so you wanted to hate church. Right. And so you wanted to start your own thing. start your own thing. start your own thing. This the the micro churches that we're This the the micro churches that we're This the the micro churches that we're seeing now aren't like I hate church and seeing now aren't like I hate church and seeing now aren't like I hate church and so I'm going to do my own thing, me and so I'm going to do my own thing, me and so I'm going to do my own thing, me and a few other people here. But instead, a few other people here. But instead, a few other people here. But instead, there's a very much a clear missional there's a very much a clear missional there's a very much a clear missional purpose. There's a clear group they're purpose. There's a clear group they're purpose. There's a clear group they're going after. going after. going after. But then also like what what for example But then also like what what for example But then also like what what for example with Kansas the Underground, there's with Kansas the Underground, there's with Kansas the Underground, there's hubs where these actually come together hubs where these actually come together hubs where these actually come together to support one another, encourage one to support one another, encourage one to support one another, encourage one another, learn one another and to make another, learn one another and to make another, learn one another and to make it more sustainable. So who's I think it more sustainable. So who's I think it more sustainable. So who's I think the missional focus is different than the missional focus is different than the missional focus is different than what maybe back in our day, back in the what maybe back in our day, back in the what maybe back in our day, back in the day that kind of soured you on the idea day that kind of soured you on the idea day that kind of soured you on the idea of a house church. of a house church. of a house church. That's different. They're going after a That's different. They're going after a That's different. They're going after a particular group of people that may not particular group of people that may not particular group of people that may not ever come to your large expression of ever come to your large expression of ever come to your large expression of church. church. church. And they're also a lot of times doing And they're also a lot of times doing And they're also a lot of times doing this together. this together. this together. One other thing that's fascinating, One other thing that's fascinating, One other thing that's fascinating, Keller actually predicted this Keller actually predicted this Keller actually predicted this and subscribed and and prescribed it and subscribed and and prescribed it and subscribed and and prescribed it that we need micro churches, that we need micro churches, that we need micro churches, but they'll probably need to be but they'll probably need to be but they'll probably need to be connected to institutional churches.

connected to institutional churches. connected to institutional churches. So you have some that like Kansas the So you have some that like Kansas the So you have some that like Kansas the Underground or tapping around where Underground or tapping around where Underground or tapping around where there's kind of these these networks and there's kind of these these networks and there's kind of these these networks and hubs. hubs. hubs. But then you also like it for example at But then you also like it for example at But then you also like it for example at Community Christian Community Christian Community Christian where the church that we started in where the church that we started in where the church that we started in Chicago, Chicago, Chicago, um um um prior to COVID, I I'd always been prior to COVID, I I'd always been prior to COVID, I I'd always been fascinated with this idea of micro fascinated with this idea of micro fascinated with this idea of micro churches Yeah. and wanted to start micro churches Yeah. and wanted to start micro churches Yeah. and wanted to start micro churches. churches. churches. So we get to COVID and I was So we get to COVID and I was So we get to COVID and I was coaching people. I'm telling them, hey, coaching people. I'm telling them, hey, coaching people. I'm telling them, hey, if you ever wanted to try something, if you ever wanted to try something, if you ever wanted to try something, now's the time to try it now's the time to try it now's the time to try it because if it doesn't work, you can because if it doesn't work, you can because if it doesn't work, you can blame COVID. blame COVID. blame COVID. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And so >> And so >> And so you know, we were closed at Community you know, we were closed at Community you know, we were closed at Community for 51 weeks. Mhm. for 51 weeks. Mhm. for 51 weeks. Mhm. But in the middle of that, coming out of But in the middle of that, coming out of But in the middle of that, coming out of that, that, that, um we began to say, hey, what if let's um we began to say, hey, what if let's um we began to say, hey, what if let's let's give this a go. Let's give this a let's give this a go. Let's give this a let's give this a go. Let's give this a go trying these micro churches. Uh the go trying these micro churches. Uh the go trying these micro churches. Uh the guy who really spearheaded was a guy guy who really spearheaded was a guy guy who really spearheaded was a guy named Rodrigo Cano. named Rodrigo Cano. named Rodrigo Cano. And so Rodrigo basically did all the And so Rodrigo basically did all the And so Rodrigo basically did all the training online. And it was kind of very training online. And it was kind of very training online. And it was kind of very simple. 10 weeks we did uh simple. 10 weeks we did uh simple. 10 weeks we did uh some of our blessed practices for some of our blessed practices for some of our blessed practices for evangelism, some of our hero making for evangelism, some of our hero making for evangelism, some of our hero making for leadership, kind of leadership leadership, kind of leadership leadership, kind of leadership development and we also did kind of what development and we also did kind of what development and we also did kind of what we call the RPMs, which are in we call the RPMs, which are in we call the RPMs, which are in multiplier now for self-help.

multiplier now for self-help. multiplier now for self-help. And that was kind of the training then And that was kind of the training then And that was kind of the training then we give them ongoing coaching. we give them ongoing coaching. we give them ongoing coaching. The crazy part we didn't think about cuz The crazy part we didn't think about cuz The crazy part we didn't think about cuz we were just thinking Chicago. we were just thinking Chicago. we were just thinking Chicago. But of course we're often the training But of course we're often the training But of course we're often the training online and it turns out it's, you know, online and it turns out it's, you know, online and it turns out it's, you know, the worldwide web. the worldwide web. the worldwide web. And we had people coming to Community And we had people coming to Community And we had people coming to Community online online online uh dot org who were from all over the uh dot org who were from all over the uh dot org who were from all over the world and world and world and we had people who like, hey, can I go we had people who like, hey, can I go we had people who like, hey, can I go through this training? Well, sure. through this training? Well, sure. through this training? Well, sure. Well, Well, Well, long story short, we're four years into long story short, we're four years into long story short, we're four years into it it it and now Community has 320 micro and now Community has 320 micro and now Community has 320 micro churches. churches. churches. Uh there's probably another 80 plus that Uh there's probably another 80 plus that Uh there's probably another 80 plus that we've also trained at our de part of we've also trained at our de part of we've also trained at our de part of community. community. community. Probably only 20 of them are in Chicago. Probably only 20 of them are in Chicago. Probably only 20 of them are in Chicago. But you have Oh, I mean But you have Oh, I mean But you have Oh, I mean uh uh uh a bunch in Uganda, a bunch in Cuba, a a bunch in Uganda, a bunch in Cuba, a a bunch in Uganda, a bunch in Cuba, a bunch in in India. And so and every bunch in in India. And so and every bunch in in India. And so and every month through online we provide them month through online we provide them month through online we provide them ongoing coaching. And at last count, um ongoing coaching. And at last count, um ongoing coaching. And at last count, um more than 8,000 people more than 8,000 people more than 8,000 people are part of these these these micro are part of these these these micro are part of these these these micro churches. And I mean yeah, baptizing churches. And I mean yeah, baptizing churches. And I mean yeah, baptizing hundreds and hundreds of people. Um hundreds and hundreds of people. Um hundreds and hundreds of people. Um Between me and you, that is a story Between me and you, that is a story Between me and you, that is a story that hasn't been told. Yeah.

that hasn't been told. Yeah. that hasn't been told. Yeah. And I think there's churches who have a And I think there's churches who have a And I think there's churches who have a lot bigger reach than even community. lot bigger reach than even community. lot bigger reach than even community. That if they would get serious That if they would get serious That if they would get serious about training people that way online to about training people that way online to about training people that way online to start their own expression in church, start their own expression in church, start their own expression in church, I mean we'll make our 320 in in four I mean we'll make our 320 in in four I mean we'll make our 320 in in four years look like small fries. I mean you years look like small fries. I mean you years look like small fries. I mean you could You some of the church out there could You some of the church out there could You some of the church out there that friends that we have if they would that friends that we have if they would that friends that we have if they would get after that kind of thing. I'm get after that kind of thing. I'm get after that kind of thing. I'm telling you it could be tens of telling you it could be tens of telling you it could be tens of thousands of churches. Well, I get that thousands of churches. Well, I get that thousands of churches. Well, I get that was that's a good point. You don't even was that's a good point. You don't even was that's a good point. You don't even have to be a big church to have a global have to be a big church to have a global have to be a big church to have a global audience. That's there's somebody who audience. That's there's somebody who audience. That's there's somebody who latched onto you who's I really like latched onto you who's I really like latched onto you who's I really like that preaching or I really like that that preaching or I really like that that preaching or I really like that music or whatever it is. music or whatever it is. music or whatever it is. >> Well, we don't we don't and we don't >> Well, we don't we don't and we don't >> Well, we don't we don't and we don't even they don't have to do our videos. even they don't have to do our videos. even they don't have to do our videos. Right. Right. I mean they get we give Right. Right. I mean they get we give Right. Right. I mean they get we give them content that they can use. But the them content that they can use. But the them content that they can use. But the basic thing we can be up front trained basic thing we can be up front trained basic thing we can be up front trained and then ongoing coaching. And you know, and then ongoing coaching. And you know, and then ongoing coaching. And you know, some certain kind of vision and values some certain kind of vision and values some certain kind of vision and values and mission stuff. But I think there's a and mission stuff. But I think there's a and mission stuff. But I think there's a lot of pastors who are just shrugging lot of pastors who are just shrugging lot of pastors who are just shrugging going yeah, I don't know what to do with going yeah, I don't know what to do with going yeah, I don't know what to do with that. Right. Like we had 300 people that. Right. Like we had 300 people that. Right. Like we had 300 people watching or 3,000 people watching on watching or 3,000 people watching on watching or 3,000 people watching on demand or live. We don't know what to do demand or live. We don't know what to do demand or live. We don't know what to do with that. And I think, you know, tell with that. And I think, you know, tell with that. And I think, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like one me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like one me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like one of the fundamental differences between of the fundamental differences between of the fundamental differences between the historic house church movement which the historic house church movement which the historic house church movement which I would agree is mostly historically I would agree is mostly historically I would agree is mostly historically disgruntled yeah people who are like disgruntled yeah people who are like disgruntled yeah people who are like we're all angry about something. We're we're all angry about something. We're we're all angry about something. We're just going to meet in my living room.

just going to meet in my living room. just going to meet in my living room. Right. Right. Right. It's not reproducing. It's not outward It's not reproducing. It's not outward It's not reproducing. It's not outward looking. It's is or missional for looking. It's is or missional for looking. It's is or missional for missional. No, it's just like we're not missional. No, it's just like we're not missional. No, it's just like we're not going to give up but this is as good as going to give up but this is as good as going to give up but this is as good as it gets. And what it sounds like with it gets. And what it sounds like with it gets. And what it sounds like with the micro church movement is the micro church movement is the micro church movement is fundamentally in the DNA it's about fundamentally in the DNA it's about fundamentally in the DNA it's about reproducing. It's about multiplying. And reproducing. It's about multiplying. And reproducing. It's about multiplying. And mission about reaching people. It's mission about reaching people. It's mission about reaching people. It's mission Yes, absolutely. mission Yes, absolutely. mission Yes, absolutely. And that's a that's a huge huge And that's a that's a huge huge And that's a that's a huge huge difference. Yeah. And with a hub and difference. Yeah. And with a hub and difference. Yeah. And with a hub and some kind of not just accountability some kind of not just accountability some kind of not just accountability Yeah. but also resourcing to say oh, you Yeah. but also resourcing to say oh, you Yeah. but also resourcing to say oh, you need some training, you need this. Yeah. need some training, you need this. Yeah. need some training, you need this. Yeah. Away you go. So that's one expression of Away you go. So that's one expression of Away you go. So that's one expression of church. What are other expressions of church. What are other expressions of church. What are other expressions of church that you're seeing? church that you're seeing? church that you're seeing? Well, I mean and one of the things that Well, I mean and one of the things that Well, I mean and one of the things that didn't get accelerated during COVID and didn't get accelerated during COVID and didn't get accelerated during COVID and and kind of it peaked and then kind of and kind of it peaked and then kind of and kind of it peaked and then kind of waned and I feel like is is also kind of waned and I feel like is is also kind of waned and I feel like is is also kind of re-emerged as as stuff that's online. re-emerged as as stuff that's online. re-emerged as as stuff that's online. And there's a lot of different And there's a lot of different And there's a lot of different expressions of that. Um expressions of that. Um expressions of that. Um I think um I think um I think um I mean one of the I mean one of the I mean one of the one one of the my one of my favorite one one of the my one of my favorite one one of the my one of my favorite stories and I'll actually end up telling stories and I'll actually end up telling stories and I'll actually end up telling it uh it uh it uh uh during the conference uh during the conference uh during the conference is I think is I think is I think there are unique expressions there are unique expressions there are unique expressions inside the people that are sitting in inside the people that are sitting in inside the people that are sitting in the pews of our church. So example the pews of our church. So example the pews of our church. So example guy named Rick. Yeah. Rick's in my small guy named Rick. Yeah. Rick's in my small guy named Rick. Yeah. Rick's in my small group.

group. group. Good dude. Salesman Good dude. Salesman Good dude. Salesman and has this huge love and has this huge love and has this huge love for the all abilities community. Okay. for the all abilities community. Okay. for the all abilities community. Okay. So like So like So like um every summer he goes um every summer he goes um every summer he goes to camp and spends a week with special to camp and spends a week with special to camp and spends a week with special needs kids. He loves them. needs kids. He loves them. needs kids. He loves them. Um they love him. He has this awesome Um they love him. He has this awesome Um they love him. He has this awesome time. And in small group he comes back time. And in small group he comes back time. And in small group he comes back my small group and he I mean he just my small group and he I mean he just my small group and he I mean he just talks about it all the time. Yeah. talks about it all the time. Yeah. talks about it all the time. Yeah. You've got people who are just buzzing You've got people who are just buzzing You've got people who are just buzzing in the thing and then it's in it's in the thing and then it's in it's in the thing and then it's in it's totally just in him. Daylight. So totally just in him. Daylight. So totally just in him. Daylight. So he comes to an exponential he comes to an exponential he comes to an exponential cuz I invited him actually one of our a cuz I invited him actually one of our a cuz I invited him actually one of our a conference in Chicago. conference in Chicago. conference in Chicago. Um the closing speaker James Meeks. Um the closing speaker James Meeks. Um the closing speaker James Meeks. James gets up there and he's like hey, James gets up there and he's like hey, James gets up there and he's like hey, if you've ever thought about planting a if you've ever thought about planting a if you've ever thought about planting a church church church you don't need money. you don't need money. you don't need money. You just need to be available. You don't You just need to be available. You don't You just need to be available. You don't need uh to have a building to go to need uh to have a building to go to need uh to have a building to go to plant a church. You just need to be plant a church. You just need to be plant a church. You just need to be available. You don't need uh a staff. available. You don't need uh a staff. available. You don't need uh a staff. You just need to be So he's that he's You just need to be So he's that he's You just need to be So he's that he's giving out eight and you know, James is giving out eight and you know, James is giving out eight and you know, James is awesome. awesome. awesome. So I'm looking down the row So I'm looking down the row So I'm looking down the row and my friend Rick and my friend Rick and my friend Rick gets can you say ask him to come forward gets can you say ask him to come forward gets can you say ask him to come forward to be commissioned. It's our closing to be commissioned. It's our closing to be commissioned. It's our closing session.

session. session. And my friend Rick is going forward. I'm And my friend Rick is going forward. I'm And my friend Rick is going forward. I'm going what the heck is happening to me? going what the heck is happening to me? going what the heck is happening to me? I've been inviting you to attend. I've been inviting you to attend. I've been inviting you to attend. >> Right. For inspiration or whatever. So >> Right. For inspiration or whatever. So >> Right. For inspiration or whatever. So afterwards I find Rick and I'm like hey afterwards I find Rick and I'm like hey afterwards I find Rick and I'm like hey Rick, what's going on? He said well, the Rick, what's going on? He said well, the Rick, what's going on? He said well, the guy the guy said you just need to be guy the guy said you just need to be guy the guy said you just need to be available. available. available. And then he turns me and he's like do do do you think I could start a church for do you think I could start a church for do you think I could start a church for the all abilities community? the all abilities community? the all abilities community? Humble. Humble. Humble. Let's try it. Let's try it. Let's try it. So we run into the same training that So we run into the same training that So we run into the same training that same micro church training, you know, same micro church training, you know, same micro church training, you know, the 10 weeks of it and be offering the 10 weeks of it and be offering the 10 weeks of it and be offering coaching. coaching. coaching. Several months later it's been two more Several months later it's been two more Several months later it's been two more than two years ago now. than two years ago now. than two years ago now. Uh in a January early January in a local Uh in a January early January in a local Uh in a January early January in a local gym at 6:00 p.m. gym at 6:00 p.m. gym at 6:00 p.m. he launches a church and because he's he launches a church and because he's he launches a church and because he's got such a network of friends, he had got such a network of friends, he had got such a network of friends, he had 125 people that show up. And and they're 125 people that show up. And and they're 125 people that show up. And and they're all people who have someone in their all people who have someone in their all people who have someone in their family who has special needs. Because family who has special needs. Because family who has special needs. Because when they show up let's take like say when they show up let's take like say when they show up let's take like say Connexus or a community, I mean we want Connexus or a community, I mean we want Connexus or a community, I mean we want to love them but it's just um to love them but it's just um to love them but it's just um Cambridge for example, if one of them Cambridge for example, if one of them Cambridge for example, if one of them just takes their shirt off in the middle just takes their shirt off in the middle just takes their shirt off in the middle of church it's kind of creates a scene of church it's kind of creates a scene of church it's kind of creates a scene and it's awkward for everybody to people and it's awkward for everybody to people and it's awkward for everybody to people around them and for them.

around them and for them. around them and for them. But like But like But like at Rick's church at Rick's church at Rick's church everybody's fine with and sometimes Sue everybody's fine with and sometimes Sue everybody's fine with and sometimes Sue I go and Sue calls it beautiful chaos. I go and Sue calls it beautiful chaos. I go and Sue calls it beautiful chaos. And And And I think there's that kind of missional I think there's that kind of missional I think there's that kind of missional imagination imagination imagination inside inside inside lots of people. And how and lots of people. And how and lots of people. And how and I mean it costs almost nothing cuz he's I mean it costs almost nothing cuz he's I mean it costs almost nothing cuz he's not getting paid. not getting paid. not getting paid. He I don't know if I don't think it's He I don't know if I don't think it's He I don't know if I don't think it's ever occurred to him it's going to be a ever occurred to him it's going to be a ever occurred to him it's going to be a paying gig. Right. He's just delighted paying gig. Right. He's just delighted paying gig. Right. He's just delighted that someone gave him permission to that someone gave him permission to that someone gave him permission to actually do it. And um actually do it. And um actually do it. And um the the rest of the story which is I the the rest of the story which is I the the rest of the story which is I won't go into all the details but then won't go into all the details but then won't go into all the details but then because he's a multiplier because he's a multiplier because he's a multiplier he's taking some of some of the people he's taking some of some of the people he's taking some of some of the people that are part of this community that that are part of this community that that are part of this community that have special needs. One of them a guy have special needs. One of them a guy have special needs. One of them a guy named William named William named William teaches every other month. teaches every other month. teaches every other month. Another guy named Trevor Another guy named Trevor Another guy named Trevor actually uh because of Rick's influence actually uh because of Rick's influence actually uh because of Rick's influence says now he wants to start a church and says now he wants to start a church and says now he wants to start a church and they're trying to figure out what does they're trying to figure out what does they're trying to figure out what does that look like. So I mean it's that look like. So I mean it's that look like. So I mean it's I think there's all I think there's all I think there's all all kinds of possibilities like that all kinds of possibilities like that all kinds of possibilities like that that that that we just need to give people permission we just need to give people permission we just need to give people permission and a little bit of missional and a little bit of missional and a little bit of missional imagination. Uh and on we go. This imagination. Uh and on we go. This imagination. Uh and on we go. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash.

episode is brought to you by Subsplash. episode is brought to you by Subsplash. So I've got Chris Sharp with me. Chris, So I've got Chris Sharp with me. Chris, So I've got Chris Sharp with me. Chris, church leaders are staring at AI right church leaders are staring at AI right church leaders are staring at AI right now and it's sort of a mix of now and it's sort of a mix of now and it's sort of a mix of fascination and some fear. I feel that fascination and some fear. I feel that fascination and some fear. I feel that personally. Is this just noise or is is personally. Is this just noise or is is personally. Is this just noise or is is something fundamental shifting for the something fundamental shifting for the something fundamental shifting for the local church? local church? local church? Oh yeah, I think I think it's a Oh yeah, I think I think it's a Oh yeah, I think I think it's a tremendous shift and it's really a tremendous shift and it's really a tremendous shift and it's really a fascinating time Carey. I was at a fascinating time Carey. I was at a fascinating time Carey. I was at a conference just a few weeks ago in the conference just a few weeks ago in the conference just a few weeks ago in the Bay Area. AI was a major theme and what Bay Area. AI was a major theme and what Bay Area. AI was a major theme and what surprised me was most pastors have been surprised me was most pastors have been surprised me was most pastors have been using AI in some way. They might be using AI in some way. They might be using AI in some way. They might be using chat or quad or something like using chat or quad or something like using chat or quad or something like that for sermon commentary or uh that for sermon commentary or uh that for sermon commentary or uh bouncing ideas off but almost no bouncing ideas off but almost no bouncing ideas off but almost no churches we we are encountering have a churches we we are encountering have a churches we we are encountering have a strategy or a policy for how they're strategy or a policy for how they're strategy or a policy for how they're thinking through leveraging AI for thinking through leveraging AI for thinking through leveraging AI for discipleship. You know, so at Subsplash discipleship. You know, so at Subsplash discipleship. You know, so at Subsplash we we view it it's not a way to just we we view it it's not a way to just we we view it it's not a way to just automate ministry. You're not automating automate ministry. You're not automating automate ministry. You're not automating ministry, you're trying to accelerate ministry, you're trying to accelerate ministry, you're trying to accelerate it. You're not trying to replace your it. You're not trying to replace your it. You're not trying to replace your people um or the worker or the ministry, people um or the worker or the ministry, people um or the worker or the ministry, you're trying to remove the you're trying to remove the you're trying to remove the administrative noise that keeps ministry administrative noise that keeps ministry administrative noise that keeps ministry staff stuck behind their desks instead staff stuck behind their desks instead staff stuck behind their desks instead of doing actual disciple making. Well, of doing actual disciple making. Well, of doing actual disciple making. Well, that makes sense because I think the that makes sense because I think the that makes sense because I think the common anxiety is that AI makes ministry common anxiety is that AI makes ministry common anxiety is that AI makes ministry less quote human. Mhm.

less quote human. Mhm. less quote human. Mhm. >> But you're saying it has a potential to >> But you're saying it has a potential to >> But you're saying it has a potential to help you like us be more human. help you like us be more human. help you like us be more human. Oh exactly. Yeah, or at least more Oh exactly. Yeah, or at least more Oh exactly. Yeah, or at least more effective as humans. You know, so that's effective as humans. You know, so that's effective as humans. You know, so that's what we're leaning into that idea. what we're leaning into that idea. what we're leaning into that idea. Uh what if we used AI for communications Uh what if we used AI for communications Uh what if we used AI for communications director to take your sermon and turn it director to take your sermon and turn it director to take your sermon and turn it into 20 different content formats in into 20 different content formats in into 20 different content formats in seconds. And so that's what a tool like seconds. And so that's what a tool like seconds. And so that's what a tool like Pulpit AI does. You know, giving humans Pulpit AI does. You know, giving humans Pulpit AI does. You know, giving humans 10 hours back of their week or with our 10 hours back of their week or with our 10 hours back of their week or with our Trends AI tool um what if we help your Trends AI tool um what if we help your Trends AI tool um what if we help your staff analyze their data quickly to staff analyze their data quickly to staff analyze their data quickly to better understand how people are giving better understand how people are giving better understand how people are giving or engaging in the life of their church. or engaging in the life of their church. or engaging in the life of their church. Something that may have taken your Something that may have taken your Something that may have taken your staff, you know, hours each week running staff, you know, hours each week running staff, you know, hours each week running Excel pivot tables. Excel pivot tables. Excel pivot tables. Um if you could get more out of your own Um if you could get more out of your own Um if you could get more out of your own content or data and use that to focus content or data and use that to focus content or data and use that to focus back on the discipleship journey, then back on the discipleship journey, then back on the discipleship journey, then you can have a tremendously increased you can have a tremendously increased you can have a tremendously increased impact as a church. Yeah, so it's not impact as a church. Yeah, so it's not impact as a church. Yeah, so it's not just about saving people time. It's just about saving people time. It's just about saving people time. It's really about helping them be more really about helping them be more really about helping them be more effective as well. effective as well. effective as well. Right. Right. And and about stewardship. Right. Right. And and about stewardship. Right. Right. And and about stewardship. Uh we're building tools that help the Uh we're building tools that help the Uh we're building tools that help the church leaders lead the mission uh and church leaders lead the mission uh and church leaders lead the mission uh and we can lead the technology. You know, we can lead the technology. You know, we can lead the technology. You know, what if we can ensure in this what if we can ensure in this what if we can ensure in this tremendously complex world in making the tremendously complex world in making the tremendously complex world in making the gospel more accessible than ever. And AI gospel more accessible than ever. And AI gospel more accessible than ever. And AI is just another tool to help us get is just another tool to help us get is just another tool to help us get there faster. There's three words that there faster. There's three words that there faster. There's three words that sort of pop into my mind as we're having sort of pop into my mind as we're having sort of pop into my mind as we're having this discussion. They're kind of this discussion. They're kind of this discussion. They're kind of obstacles to what you're talking about.

obstacles to what you're talking about. obstacles to what you're talking about. One is control. Yeah, a lot of pastors One is control. Yeah, a lot of pastors One is control. Yeah, a lot of pastors really enjoy control. really enjoy control. really enjoy control. Uh another would be the box. Yeah, this Uh another would be the box. Yeah, this Uh another would be the box. Yeah, this is what church is. Oh, this is what is what church is. Oh, this is what is what church is. Oh, this is what church is. Or like your ecclesiology. church is. Or like your ecclesiology. church is. Or like your ecclesiology. Yeah, your ecclesiology. I like well, I Yeah, your ecclesiology. I like well, I Yeah, your ecclesiology. I like well, I don't know what that would look like and don't know what that would look like and don't know what that would look like and it doesn't fit our model. it doesn't fit our model. it doesn't fit our model. And and the third, I had three. I think And and the third, I had three. I think And and the third, I had three. I think might be might be might be permission. Mhm. They just permission to permission. Mhm. They just permission to permission. Mhm. They just permission to go out like, you know, I think probably go out like, you know, I think probably go out like, you know, I think probably a lot of people watching this listening a lot of people watching this listening a lot of people watching this listening to this to this to this they've had conversations with Ricks in they've had conversations with Ricks in they've had conversations with Ricks in their lives or other people who are like their lives or other people who are like their lives or other people who are like we want to do like a home church. Maybe we want to do like a home church. Maybe we want to do like a home church. Maybe don't have the micro church don't have the micro church don't have the micro church >> Yeah. word and they're like well, that's >> Yeah. word and they're like well, that's >> Yeah. word and they're like well, that's just a bunch of unhappy Christians. So just a bunch of unhappy Christians. So just a bunch of unhappy Christians. So no, you come to my box and you sit there no, you come to my box and you sit there no, you come to my box and you sit there on Sunday morning. on Sunday morning. on Sunday morning. And what I think is encouraging is And what I think is encouraging is And what I think is encouraging is we got to look at different models. If we got to look at different models. If we got to look at different models. If we want a different future, we have to we want a different future, we have to we want a different future, we have to look at different models. What would you look at different models. What would you look at different models. What would you say cuz I want to get into the say cuz I want to get into the say cuz I want to get into the multiplier framework. Well, and I'd love multiplier framework. Well, and I'd love multiplier framework. Well, and I'd love to push into this. Yeah, push into that. to push into this. Yeah, push into that. to push into this. Yeah, push into that. Push into that cuz I think these are the Push into that cuz I think these are the Push into that cuz I think these are the objections objections objections I mean you had he says you want to play I mean you had he says you want to play I mean you had he says you want to play a control thing? Yeah.

a control thing? Yeah. a control thing? Yeah. I want to say something that's not I want to say something that's not I want to say something that's not completely true but it's mostly true. completely true but it's mostly true. completely true but it's mostly true. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think more leaders need to lead with a I think more leaders need to lead with a I think more leaders need to lead with a yes. yes. yes. Here's what's happened, I think. I think Here's what's happened, I think. I think Here's what's happened, I think. I think a lot of us have been influenced by a lot of us have been influenced by a lot of us have been influenced by business. Right. And I'm And I got no business. Right. And I'm And I got no business. Right. And I'm And I got no knocks. I love all the business stuff. I knocks. I love all the business stuff. I knocks. I love all the business stuff. I mean, when you know, when you've got mean, when you know, when you've got mean, when you know, when you've got different people on your podcast, I I different people on your podcast, I I different people on your podcast, I I eat that stuff up cuz cuz there is a big eat that stuff up cuz cuz there is a big eat that stuff up cuz cuz there is a big part about church that is business. So, part about church that is business. So, part about church that is business. So, I'm not knocking that. But, here's the I'm not knocking that. But, here's the I'm not knocking that. But, here's the part about business part about business part about business Business has taught us that you have a Business has taught us that you have a Business has taught us that you have a target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Yeah. You have this target customer. Here's the people we're target customer. Here's the people we're target customer. Here's the people we're going after. And a lot of our churches going after. And a lot of our churches going after. And a lot of our churches do this. And if if the idea or the do this. And if if the idea or the do this. And if if the idea or the concept or whatever you're bringing in concept or whatever you're bringing in concept or whatever you're bringing in front of me doesn't fit what that person front of me doesn't fit what that person front of me doesn't fit what that person wants, what that person needs, then the wants, what that person needs, then the wants, what that person needs, then the answer's no cuz you have to say, you answer's no cuz you have to say, you answer's no cuz you have to say, you know, no to the next thing so you can know, no to the next thing so you can know, no to the next thing so you can say yes to the great things. We've all say yes to the great things. We've all say yes to the great things. We've all learned that over and over again. learned that over and over again. learned that over and over again. That's partially true, but it's also That's partially true, but it's also That's partially true, but it's also that's not the way movement happens. that's not the way movement happens. that's not the way movement happens. It's not the way you mobilize the It's not the way you mobilize the It's not the way you mobilize the priesthood of all believers. So, I think priesthood of all believers. So, I think priesthood of all believers. So, I think I would encourage lead pastors instead I would encourage lead pastors instead I would encourage lead pastors instead and it'll get you kind of in trouble, and it'll get you kind of in trouble, and it'll get you kind of in trouble, but let's try this.

but let's try this. but let's try this. To lead with a yes. To lead with a yes. To lead with a yes. And when I And so, when a Rick comes you And when I And so, when a Rick comes you And when I And so, when a Rick comes you like, "Hey, could I like, "Hey, could I like, "Hey, could I Yeah. Let's give it a go." Yeah. Let's give it a go." Yeah. Let's give it a go." And And And And And here's what lead with a yes And And here's what lead with a yes And And here's what lead with a yes doesn't mean. It doesn't mean you have doesn't mean. It doesn't mean you have doesn't mean. It doesn't mean you have to put on your website. to put on your website. to put on your website. It doesn't mean you have to make flyers It doesn't mean you have to make flyers It doesn't mean you have to make flyers for it. It doesn't mean you have to ever for it. It doesn't mean you have to ever for it. It doesn't mean you have to ever It doesn't mean you have to It doesn't It doesn't mean you have to It doesn't It doesn't mean you have to It doesn't mean you have to fund it. No. mean you have to fund it. No. mean you have to fund it. No. But, if you'll be willing cuz I mean, But, if you'll be willing cuz I mean, But, if you'll be willing cuz I mean, this I think that movement actually this I think that movement actually this I think that movement actually happens when you release things and you happens when you release things and you happens when you release things and you lead with a yes and you allow those lead with a yes and you allow those lead with a yes and you allow those things because the cool thing about things because the cool thing about things because the cool thing about Rick's story, too, is I mean, like he'll Rick's story, too, is I mean, like he'll Rick's story, too, is I mean, like he'll be here this week and he he's be here this week and he he's be here this week and he he's influencing now people in other parts influencing now people in other parts influencing now people in other parts around the world. And if I would have around the world. And if I would have around the world. And if I would have gone like, "You know what? That's a good gone like, "You know what? That's a good gone like, "You know what? That's a good idea, but I don't know which staff idea, but I don't know which staff idea, but I don't know which staff person I'm going to put it under. I person I'm going to put it under. I person I'm going to put it under. I don't know how we're going to fund this don't know how we're going to fund this don't know how we're going to fund this thing." thing." thing." Just be part of my small group and he's Just be part of my small group and he's Just be part of my small group and he's showing up. And actually, truthfully, I showing up. And actually, truthfully, I showing up. And actually, truthfully, I got our small group like he sat on the got our small group like he sat on the got our small group like he sat on the he sat on the coffee table, told he sat on the coffee table, told he sat on the coffee table, told everybody in our small group about his everybody in our small group about his everybody in our small group about his I'm available prayer. I'm available prayer. I'm available prayer. And we put hands on him, our small And we put hands on him, our small And we put hands on him, our small group, and we commissioned him. It was group, and we commissioned him. It was group, and we commissioned him. It was like his ordination. Yeah. And um like his ordination. Yeah. And um like his ordination. Yeah. And um I just think I think I would love for I just think I think I would love for I just think I think I would love for leaders to play with the idea of leading leaders to play with the idea of leading leaders to play with the idea of leading with a yes. And I think I'm giving with a yes. And I think I'm giving with a yes. And I think I'm giving people permission to do a lot of things.

people permission to do a lot of things. people permission to do a lot of things. You know, the other word I was thinking You know, the other word I was thinking You know, the other word I was thinking of is fear. And there's a lot of fear. of is fear. And there's a lot of fear. of is fear. And there's a lot of fear. Well, if I Well, it's a zero-sum game. Well, if I Well, it's a zero-sum game. Well, if I Well, it's a zero-sum game. So, if I let Rick go So, if I let Rick go So, if I let Rick go cuz you're the lead pastor of of you cuz you're the lead pastor of of you cuz you're the lead pastor of of you know, Community Christian. know, Community Christian. know, Community Christian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If I let Rick go, that's one less person If I let Rick go, that's one less person If I let Rick go, that's one less person for me. That's one less donor for me. for me. That's one less donor for me. for me. That's one less donor for me. That mindset is still the firmly That mindset is still the firmly That mindset is still the firmly embedded in the church. Yeah. embedded in the church. Yeah. embedded in the church. Yeah. It's had It's had It's had Yeah, I know. I Yeah, I know. I Yeah, I know. I You tell me for See, See, I think as leaders, when they mean we I think as leaders, when they mean we I think as leaders, when they mean we want most want most want most second most after fighting and following second most after fighting and following second most after fighting and following Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Is I think we do we want to make a Is I think we do we want to make a Is I think we do we want to make a difference. We want to have influence. difference. We want to have influence. difference. We want to have influence. We want to make an impact. We want to make an impact. We want to make an impact. And this is where maybe we'll get into And this is where maybe we'll get into And this is where maybe we'll get into this the the growing versus multiplying. this the the growing versus multiplying. this the the growing versus multiplying. Growing is good. Yeah. Growing is good. Yeah. Growing is good. Yeah. With in that community, we grow a very With in that community, we grow a very With in that community, we grow a very large church. That's good. But, I'm large church. That's good. But, I'm large church. That's good. But, I'm telling you multiplying is great. telling you multiplying is great. telling you multiplying is great. Because okay, let's say there's several Because okay, let's say there's several Because okay, let's say there's several thousands of people we're able to reach thousands of people we're able to reach thousands of people we're able to reach through Community.

through Community. through Community. We When you begin to think about all the We When you begin to think about all the We When you begin to think about all the churches that we planted and through New churches that we planted and through New churches that we planted and through New Thing. And I'll always say this Thing. And I'll always say this Thing. And I'll always say this giving God all the credit. We have to giving God all the credit. We have to giving God all the credit. We have to plant help plant churches in 69 plant help plant churches in 69 plant help plant churches in 69 countries. countries. countries. And we would keep track and so we helped And we would keep track and so we helped And we would keep track and so we helped trade and release more than 35,000 trade and release more than 35,000 trade and release more than 35,000 churches. churches. churches. So, now let's do the math. Let's say a So, now let's do the math. Let's say a So, now let's do the math. Let's say a lot of those are smaller churches. Let's lot of those are smaller churches. Let's lot of those are smaller churches. Let's say even 40 to 50 cuz we did a lot of say even 40 to 50 cuz we did a lot of say even 40 to 50 cuz we did a lot of work in Africa and India besides all work in Africa and India besides all work in Africa and India besides all across the United States. across the United States. across the United States. I mean, you start doing the math and I mean, you start doing the math and I mean, you start doing the math and it's not to I mean, it's in the hundreds it's not to I mean, it's in the hundreds it's not to I mean, it's in the hundreds of thousands of millions of people. of thousands of millions of people. of thousands of millions of people. It's This is not This There's It's This is not This There's It's This is not This There's It's not something special about me. I It's not something special about me. I It's not something special about me. I mean, this is the kind of me we can all mean, this is the kind of me we can all mean, this is the kind of me we can all be involved with. That's what I love be involved with. That's what I love be involved with. That's what I love about it. If you just And like like about it. If you just And like like about it. If you just And like like Rodrigo, this guy Rodrigo. I mean, Rodrigo, this guy Rodrigo. I mean, Rodrigo, this guy Rodrigo. I mean, Rodrigo in the last 4 years, he's helped Rodrigo in the last 4 years, he's helped Rodrigo in the last 4 years, he's helped us start This is like his half-time job. us start This is like his half-time job. us start This is like his half-time job. He's helped start over 400 micro He's helped start over 400 micro He's helped start over 400 micro churches, 8,000 people. churches, 8,000 people. churches, 8,000 people. And see, we we we've got to let go of And see, we we we've got to let go of And see, we we we've got to let go of that thing. that thing. that thing. And then I could tell story after story And then I could tell story after story And then I could tell story after story in our life. It's a mindset though. And in our life. It's a mindset though. And in our life. It's a mindset though. And what's interesting, but is also the what's interesting, but is also the what's interesting, but is also the thing that as leaders are listeners, thing that as leaders are listeners, thing that as leaders are listeners, that's what they want most. They really that's what they want most. They really that's what they want most. They really do want to make an impact. They really do want to make an impact. They really do want to make an impact. They really want to make a difference. And it's And want to make a difference. And it's And want to make a difference. And it's And it's kind of this counterintuitive thing it's kind of this counterintuitive thing it's kind of this counterintuitive thing that if you continue to give the grace, that if you continue to give the grace, that if you continue to give the grace, if you continue to let go of control and if you continue to let go of control and if you continue to let go of control and not just try to hold on to everything not just try to hold on to everything not just try to hold on to everything my experience has been wow, it's like my experience has been wow, it's like my experience has been wow, it's like God gives you more and more opportunity.

God gives you more and more opportunity. God gives you more and more opportunity. And the other thing that's interesting And the other thing that's interesting And the other thing that's interesting to me is it's not like you sacrificed to me is it's not like you sacrificed to me is it's not like you sacrificed much in Chicago. I mean, you saw a lot much in Chicago. I mean, you saw a lot much in Chicago. I mean, you saw a lot of people come to church. You of people come to church. You of people come to church. You multi-site. I mean, you you did it all multi-site. I mean, you you did it all multi-site. I mean, you you did it all that a lot of pastors would do, but that a lot of pastors would do, but that a lot of pastors would do, but there's still that kind of tight fist. there's still that kind of tight fist. there's still that kind of tight fist. There's still that fear that somehow if There's still that fear that somehow if There's still that fear that somehow if you if this happens over there, I'm you if this happens over there, I'm you if this happens over there, I'm going to be diminished. I I picked I going to be diminished. I I picked I going to be diminished. I I picked I mean, I interview lots of leaders as you mean, I interview lots of leaders as you mean, I interview lots of leaders as you know. know. know. I still pick that up. Oh, yeah. I still pick that up. Oh, yeah. I still pick that up. Oh, yeah. And here's the thing. And here's the thing. And here's the thing. I think we're stuck still somehow in I think we're stuck still somehow in I think we're stuck still somehow in this either/or thinking of either we can this either/or thinking of either we can this either/or thinking of either we can grow something or we can multiply. grow something or we can multiply. grow something or we can multiply. Right. And the truth is you can do both. Right. And the truth is you can do both. Right. And the truth is you can do both. In fact, In fact, In fact, for for you numbers that you do, for for you numbers that you do, for for you numbers that you do, Warren Warren Warren You know, you know Warren. Warren's You know, you know Warren. Warren's You know, you know Warren. Warren's great. I mean, whenever I Warren's like great. I mean, whenever I Warren's like great. I mean, whenever I Warren's like my personal Warren's amazing. He's like my personal Warren's amazing. He's like my personal Warren's amazing. He's like my personal chat GPT. I text him on a my personal chat GPT. I text him on a my personal chat GPT. I text him on a daily basis. daily basis. daily basis. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I hit him up for stats, dude. So, and he >> I hit him up for stats, dude. So, and he >> I hit him up for stats, dude. So, and he would tell you this from his last would tell you this from his last would tell you this from his last research project on church planting research project on church planting research project on church planting that churches with a big multiplication that churches with a big multiplication that churches with a big multiplication vision vision vision actually grow more.

actually grow more. actually grow more. Wow. So, if a church has a vision for Wow. So, if a church has a vision for Wow. So, if a church has a vision for planting more than 10 churches planting more than 10 churches planting more than 10 churches they will Their average growth rate is they will Their average growth rate is they will Their average growth rate is 10% or more annually. If a church says 10% or more annually. If a church says 10% or more annually. If a church says like, "No, we're not going to plant a like, "No, we're not going to plant a like, "No, we're not going to plant a church." They're flat. church." They're flat. church." They're flat. So, these things go hand in hand. So, these things go hand in hand. So, these things go hand in hand. Now, the good news I was just talking to Now, the good news I was just talking to Now, the good news I was just talking to Jim Tomberlin just yesterday. Jim Tomberlin just yesterday. Jim Tomberlin just yesterday. >> Yeah. And Jim told me this. He said that >> Yeah. And Jim told me this. He said that >> Yeah. And Jim told me this. He said that right now, and I think this is starting right now, and I think this is starting right now, and I think this is starting to shift this either/or. Either we have to shift this either/or. Either we have to shift this either/or. Either we have to grow something or we can multiply. to grow something or we can multiply. to grow something or we can multiply. No, you you you do both these things. No, you you you do both these things. No, you you you do both these things. Is that 49% of multi-site churches Is that 49% of multi-site churches Is that 49% of multi-site churches have also planted churches. have also planted churches. have also planted churches. And I see this happening a lot. I was I And I see this happening a lot. I was I And I see this happening a lot. I was I was recently with our friends at was recently with our friends at was recently with our friends at NewSpring. NewSpring. NewSpring. >> Mhm. And I mean, it's a large church, >> Mhm. And I mean, it's a large church, >> Mhm. And I mean, it's a large church, multi-site church, but they are getting multi-site church, but they are getting multi-site church, but they are getting full on on church planting. And And when full on on church planting. And And when full on on church planting. And And when they start doing that I mean, if they they start doing that I mean, if they they start doing that I mean, if they got 15,000 people, you know, down there, got 15,000 people, you know, down there, got 15,000 people, you know, down there, I'm I'm telling you it will be hundreds I'm I'm telling you it will be hundreds I'm I'm telling you it will be hundreds of thousands of people around the world. of thousands of people around the world. of thousands of people around the world. And we And people need to know you you And we And people need to know you you And we And people need to know you you can do both. And it's it's as simple can do both. And it's it's as simple can do both. And it's it's as simple I think as let's let's say Carey, you're I think as let's let's say Carey, you're I think as let's let's say Carey, you're in my church.

in my church. in my church. We start with that person and go, We start with that person and go, We start with that person and go, "What's the dream God's giving you?" "What's the dream God's giving you?" "What's the dream God's giving you?" And you're going like, "Oh, I want to And you're going like, "Oh, I want to And you're going like, "Oh, I want to start a small Okay, let me help you start a small Okay, let me help you start a small Okay, let me help you start small." start small." start small." Or you want Oh, I want to be a campus Or you want Oh, I want to be a campus Or you want Oh, I want to be a campus pastor someday cuz I love what's pastor someday cuz I love what's pastor someday cuz I love what's happening at Community or Connexus or happening at Community or Connexus or happening at Community or Connexus or NewSpring. I love what's happening NewSpring. I love what's happening NewSpring. I love what's happening there. there. there. Okay, let me help you be a couple of Okay, let me help you be a couple of Okay, let me help you be a couple of campus pastors. Or you come to me like, campus pastors. Or you come to me like, campus pastors. Or you come to me like, "You know what? "You know what? "You know what? I think I really want to start a new I think I really want to start a new I think I really want to start a new church. You know, I got this idea that's church. You know, I got this idea that's church. You know, I got this idea that's kind of this niche thing and I don't kind of this niche thing and I don't kind of this niche thing and I don't think it'll really work here. Okay, let think it'll really work here. Okay, let think it'll really work here. Okay, let me help you do that." me help you do that." me help you do that." It It's not that difficult. And And from It It's not that difficult. And And from It It's not that difficult. And And from day one, we did both those things. I was day one, we did both those things. I was day one, we did both those things. I was going to say, are you wired that way? going to say, are you wired that way? going to say, are you wired that way? Are you a yes of both/and expensive Are you a yes of both/and expensive Are you a yes of both/and expensive thinker? This is not a zero-sum game. Is thinker? This is not a zero-sum game. Is thinker? This is not a zero-sum game. Is that your natural wiring? that your natural wiring? that your natural wiring? Um I guess I don't know. Um I guess I don't know. Um I guess I don't know. But, what I do know But, what I do know But, what I do know is along the way is along the way is along the way um um um I had some really key mentors. I had some really key mentors. I had some really key mentors. So, like a like Bob Buford. So, like a like Bob Buford. So, like a like Bob Buford. You know that name. And some of you You know that name. And some of you You know that name. And some of you don't even know if you've ever met him. don't even know if you've ever met him. don't even know if you've ever met him. Yeah, you didn't meet No, never met Bob. Yeah, you didn't meet No, never met Bob. Yeah, you didn't meet No, never met Bob. So, Bob would always say this. This was So, Bob would always say this. This was So, Bob would always say this. This was in something he just stuck inside me.

in something he just stuck inside me. in something he just stuck inside me. Is he would always say, "Here Here's the Is he would always say, "Here Here's the Is he would always say, "Here Here's the thing." And he kind of was the idea. He thing." And he kind of was the idea. He thing." And he kind of was the idea. He was the hero maker before I ever wrote was the hero maker before I ever wrote was the hero maker before I ever wrote hero maker. hero maker. hero maker. He would say, "My fruit grows on other He would say, "My fruit grows on other He would say, "My fruit grows on other people's trees." people's trees." people's trees." And that became like, "Oh, okay." And he And that became like, "Oh, okay." And he And that became like, "Oh, okay." And he would also say this, "We're the would also say this, "We're the would also say this, "We're the platform. We're not the show." platform. We're not the show." platform. We're not the show." We're the platform, not the show. And We're the platform, not the show. And We're the platform, not the show. And so, when you begin to have you get that so, when you begin to have you get that so, when you begin to have you get that kind of kind of kind of that kind of coaching, that kind of that kind of coaching, that kind of that kind of coaching, that kind of mentoring, then you kind of do show up mentoring, then you kind of do show up mentoring, then you kind of do show up that way. And then that way. And then that way. And then when when when either kingdom principles or something either kingdom principles or something either kingdom principles or something reinforces that reinforces that reinforces that cuz cuz cuz This is going to sound like I'm Sorry, This is going to sound like I'm Sorry, This is going to sound like I'm Sorry, this is going to sound awkward. this is going to sound awkward. this is going to sound awkward. Sometimes people will be like, "Oh, Sometimes people will be like, "Oh, Sometimes people will be like, "Oh, Dave, I just I appreciate your humility. Dave, I just I appreciate your humility. Dave, I just I appreciate your humility. You know, that you're always cheering You know, that you're always cheering You know, that you're always cheering for other people, you know." And I hope for other people, you know." And I hope for other people, you know." And I hope that's true. that's true. that's true. But, part of what's happened for me is But, part of what's happened for me is But, part of what's happened for me is as I try to help other people make their as I try to help other people make their as I try to help other people make their dreams come true dreams come true dreams come true and I try to help them accomplish and I try to help them accomplish and I try to help them accomplish whatever it is that God has for them, I whatever it is that God has for them, I whatever it is that God has for them, I feel like God keeps giving me more feel like God keeps giving me more feel like God keeps giving me more influence. Does that make sense? influence. Does that make sense? influence. Does that make sense? >> It I'm sure you do exactly that. Yeah.

>> It I'm sure you do exactly that. Yeah. >> It I'm sure you do exactly that. Yeah. The more you give away The more you give away The more you give away >> Yeah. the more you I mean, it feels >> Yeah. the more you I mean, it feels >> Yeah. the more you I mean, it feels biblical, doesn't it? biblical, doesn't it? biblical, doesn't it? I think I've read that. At least I've I think I've read that. At least I've I think I've read that. At least I've read that, Dave. No, but it's such a read that, Dave. No, but it's such a read that, Dave. No, but it's such a it's it's a it's a tension. I mean, some it's it's a it's a tension. I mean, some it's it's a it's a tension. I mean, some of us I'm probably wired as a zero-sum of us I'm probably wired as a zero-sum of us I'm probably wired as a zero-sum game guy. Oh, okay. That if you win, I game guy. Oh, okay. That if you win, I game guy. Oh, okay. That if you win, I lose. And I've spent a lifetime fighting lose. And I've spent a lifetime fighting lose. And I've spent a lifetime fighting that. that. that. Uh Tim I see you from here. Uh Tim I see you from here. Uh Tim I see you from here. Oh gosh, it goes back Here's counseling Oh gosh, it goes back Here's counseling Oh gosh, it goes back Here's counseling session number 743. session number 743. session number 743. It's a really good question. It probably It's a really good question. It probably It's a really good question. It probably goes back to goes back to goes back to childhood for sure. childhood for sure. childhood for sure. I don't know. I don't know, but I've I don't know. I don't know, but I've I don't know. I don't know, but I've realized that that is not true, that realized that that is not true, that realized that that is not true, that that's a lie, and it's the opposite of that's a lie, and it's the opposite of that's a lie, and it's the opposite of kingdom principles. You know what occurs kingdom principles. You know what occurs kingdom principles. You know what occurs to me? What's that? to me? What's that? to me? What's that? Kind of in light of I mean, we kind of Kind of in light of I mean, we kind of Kind of in light of I mean, we kind of almost got there where it came from for almost got there where it came from for almost got there where it came from for you. By God's kindness again. By God's kindness again. So, I grew up in a home So, I grew up in a home So, I grew up in a home that was I would say pretty functional. that was I would say pretty functional. that was I would say pretty functional. Uh my mom and dad are still alive. Uh my mom and dad are still alive. Uh my mom and dad are still alive. They've been married more than 60 years. They've been married more than 60 years. They've been married more than 60 years. They love each other. They love God.

They love each other. They love God. They love each other. They love God. My mom was the kind of person in My mom was the kind of person in My mom was the kind of person in particular particular particular who was like a really good coach. who was like a really good coach. who was like a really good coach. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And she You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And she You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And she would um um would um um would um um before I ever kind of believed in myself before I ever kind of believed in myself before I ever kind of believed in myself or even maybe the Holy Spirit was inside or even maybe the Holy Spirit was inside or even maybe the Holy Spirit was inside of me working this way. I could hear of me working this way. I could hear of me working this way. I could hear like her voice going, "You could do like her voice going, "You could do like her voice going, "You could do this. You could do this." this. You could do this." this. You could do this." And I think there was something about And I think there was something about And I think there was something about like her confidence in all of us. like her confidence in all of us. like her confidence in all of us. So, at a very young age So, at a very young age So, at a very young age we start this church, early 20s. we start this church, early 20s. we start this church, early 20s. And I think the culture from my family And I think the culture from my family And I think the culture from my family of believing the best, assuming the of believing the best, assuming the of believing the best, assuming the best, you can do this. best, you can do this. best, you can do this. I don't think it was really like I don't think it was really like I don't think it was really like intentional on our part. I think we just intentional on our part. I think we just intentional on our part. I think we just didn't We just kind of took that in the didn't We just kind of took that in the didn't We just kind of took that in the church. So, when you showed up, I was church. So, when you showed up, I was church. So, when you showed up, I was like, "Oh, you could do this." And I like, "Oh, you could do this." And I like, "Oh, you could do this." And I assumed the best. That makes sense. assumed the best. That makes sense. assumed the best. That makes sense. Yeah, so a lot of us probably What a Yeah, so a lot of us probably What a Yeah, so a lot of us probably What a beautiful gift. What a beautiful gift. beautiful gift. What a beautiful gift. beautiful gift. What a beautiful gift. Yeah, which again, I hope Yeah, which again, I hope Yeah, which again, I hope anybody who has the privilege of being a anybody who has the privilege of being a anybody who has the privilege of being a parent like parent like parent like that is a huge thing to give. But I that is a huge thing to give. But I that is a huge thing to give. But I think I feel that. So, I don't really think I feel that. So, I don't really think I feel that. So, I don't really feel like you guys is Is are you feel like you guys is Is are you feel like you guys is Is are you naturally that wired that way? I Maybe naturally that wired that way? I Maybe naturally that wired that way? I Maybe it's people like a Bob Buford alone and it's people like a Bob Buford alone and it's people like a Bob Buford alone and maybe I your mom early on who you take maybe I your mom early on who you take maybe I your mom early on who you take that culture and that culture all of a that culture and that culture all of a that culture and that culture all of a sudden creates this kind of like can-do, sudden creates this kind of like can-do, sudden creates this kind of like can-do, positive, encouraging, hero-making kind positive, encouraging, hero-making kind positive, encouraging, hero-making kind of culture. So, when you talk about of culture. So, when you talk about of culture. So, when you talk about multiplication. Sure. So, your new book multiplication. Sure. So, your new book multiplication. Sure. So, your new book is Multiplier. Now, is Multiplier. Now, is Multiplier. Now, what do people multiply intentionally or what do people multiply intentionally or what do people multiply intentionally or unintentionally? Uh unintentionally? Uh unintentionally? Uh >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I At the core Yeah, at the core of >> And I At the core Yeah, at the core of >> And I At the core Yeah, at the core of the book, we we I If there was only, you

the book, we we I If there was only, you the book, we we I If there was only, you know, maybe one sentence I could give know, maybe one sentence I could give know, maybe one sentence I could give people from the book, it'd be you people from the book, it'd be you people from the book, it'd be you reproduce who you are and what you do. reproduce who you are and what you do. reproduce who you are and what you do. Gosh, I I realized that lesson a few Gosh, I I realized that lesson a few Gosh, I I realized that lesson a few years ago that years ago that years ago that you you don't reproduce what you think you you don't reproduce what you think you you don't reproduce what you think what you believe, what you hope for, what you believe, what you hope for, what you believe, what you hope for, what you aspire to. what you aspire to. what you aspire to. That if you're kind of a jerk, you're That if you're kind of a jerk, you're That if you're kind of a jerk, you're going to reproduce jerks. That's right. going to reproduce jerks. That's right. going to reproduce jerks. That's right. If you're kind, you will probably If you're kind, you will probably If you're kind, you will probably reproduce kindness. That's right. If reproduce kindness. That's right. If reproduce kindness. That's right. If you're tight-fisted, you're going to you're tight-fisted, you're going to you're tight-fisted, you're going to have a lot of tight-fisted people. have a lot of tight-fisted people. have a lot of tight-fisted people. Is that the principle of the book? Is that the principle of the book? Is that the principle of the book? Uh I'm at the core of I was only going Uh I'm at the core of I was only going Uh I'm at the core of I was only going to give you one sentence. That's it. to give you one sentence. That's it. to give you one sentence. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and what we What we do beyond that And and what we What we do beyond that And and what we What we do beyond that then is we kind of start with that as then is we kind of start with that as then is we kind of start with that as the premise. He he. And with that in the premise. He he. And with that in the premise. He he. And with that in mind, mind, mind, then [clears throat] how do you be then [clears throat] how do you be then [clears throat] how do you be intentional about kind of staying in the intentional about kind of staying in the intentional about kind of staying in the step with the spirit? step with the spirit? step with the spirit? And I we felt about not drifting. Yeah. And I we felt about not drifting. Yeah. And I we felt about not drifting. Yeah. And so, we give kind of these four And so, we give kind of these four And so, we give kind of these four gauges for how you can check these four gauges for how you can check these four gauges for how you can check these four gauges so you're gauges so you're gauges so you're not drifting and you're staying in step not drifting and you're staying in step not drifting and you're staying in step with the spirit. So, you're you're with the spirit. So, you're you're with the spirit. So, you're you're reproducing good stuff. reproducing good stuff. reproducing good stuff. And then once you're That's cuz that's And then once you're That's cuz that's And then once you're That's cuz that's internally who you are. And then we go internally who you are. And then we go internally who you are. And then we go to what you do and we give the four to what you do and we give the four to what you do and we give the four practices in the multiplier. And both practices in the multiplier. And both practices in the multiplier. And both these internal gauges come from the life these internal gauges come from the life these internal gauges come from the life of Jesus and the four practices come of Jesus and the four practices come of Jesus and the four practices come from the life of Jesus. And basically, from the life of Jesus. And basically, from the life of Jesus. And basically, what I tell people is like, "And if what I tell people is like, "And if what I tell people is like, "And if you'll do this you'll do this you'll do this for 10, 15, 20 years, I'm telling you for 10, 15, 20 years, I'm telling you for 10, 15, 20 years, I'm telling you the kind of impact you're going to make the kind of impact you're going to make the kind of impact you're going to make is profound. It's It is the stuff of is profound. It's It is the stuff of is profound. It's It is the stuff of being a maker." This episode is brought being a maker." This episode is brought being a maker." This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy.

to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. So, in this episode, David and I got So, in this episode, David and I got So, in this episode, David and I got into something into something into something that's been sitting with me. The reason that's been sitting with me. The reason that's been sitting with me. The reason most churches never grow, let alone most churches never grow, let alone most churches never grow, let alone multiply, is that leaders default to no multiply, is that leaders default to no multiply, is that leaders default to no instead of yes. Now, I'm a proponent of instead of yes. Now, I'm a proponent of instead of yes. Now, I'm a proponent of that, but yes has a a role as well. In that, but yes has a a role as well. In that, but yes has a a role as well. In my experience working with thousands of my experience working with thousands of my experience working with thousands of leaders, leaders, leaders, that no default sometimes isn't about that no default sometimes isn't about that no default sometimes isn't about courage, it's about capacity. Maybe courage, it's about capacity. Maybe courage, it's about capacity. Maybe you're saying no because you don't have you're saying no because you don't have you're saying no because you don't have time. You don't have a plan. You don't time. You don't have a plan. You don't time. You don't have a plan. You don't have a team ready. You don't have a have a team ready. You don't have a have a team ready. You don't have a framework for what to do next. Well, framework for what to do next. Well, framework for what to do next. Well, that's why I built the Art of Leadership that's why I built the Art of Leadership that's why I built the Art of Leadership Academy all-access membership. It's Academy all-access membership. It's Academy all-access membership. It's every course I've ever created on every course I've ever created on every course I've ever created on preaching, leading volunteers, preaching, leading volunteers, preaching, leading volunteers, preventing burnout, building healthy preventing burnout, building healthy preventing burnout, building healthy teams, growing your church, and a whole teams, growing your church, and a whole teams, growing your church, and a whole lot more, and it's all in one place. And lot more, and it's all in one place. And lot more, and it's all in one place. And the part that I'm most excited about, the part that I'm most excited about, the part that I'm most excited about, once a month, I jump on a live coaching once a month, I jump on a live coaching once a month, I jump on a live coaching call with you and the rest of our call with you and the rest of our call with you and the rest of our members, and we work through your members, and we work through your members, and we work through your situations together in real time. It's situations together in real time. It's situations together in real time. It's the closest thing I offer to sitting the closest thing I offer to sitting the closest thing I offer to sitting down across the table from you. Often down across the table from you. Often down across the table from you. Often people are like, "Hey, do you do Zoom people are like, "Hey, do you do Zoom people are like, "Hey, do you do Zoom calls?" It's like, "No, I do them in calls?" It's like, "No, I do them in calls?" It's like, "No, I do them in there, in the academy." So, if today's there, in the academy." So, if today's there, in the academy." So, if today's conversation conversation conversation lit something up in you, don't let it lit something up in you, don't let it lit something up in you, don't let it just be an inspiration or curiosity.

just be an inspiration or curiosity. just be an inspiration or curiosity. Head on over to Head on over to Head on over to careynieuwhof.com/academy. careynieuwhof.com/academy. careynieuwhof.com/academy. The link is inside the description, and The link is inside the description, and The link is inside the description, and join us inside the academy. That's join us inside the academy. That's join us inside the academy. That's careynieuwhof.com/academy. careynieuwhof.com/academy. careynieuwhof.com/academy. I would love to see you in there. So, I would love to see you in there. So, I would love to see you in there. So, let's get through the internal gauges. I let's get through the internal gauges. I let's get through the internal gauges. I think the internal life like you know, think the internal life like you know, think the internal life like you know, you've been When did you become pastor you've been When did you become pastor you've been When did you become pastor right here? right here? right here? Oh, I mean, I started as a youth pastor Oh, I mean, I started as a youth pastor Oh, I mean, I started as a youth pastor when I was, I don't know, 21. Yeah, so when I was, I don't know, 21. Yeah, so when I was, I don't know, 21. Yeah, so 21. So, you've been in this for decades. 21. So, you've been in this for decades. 21. So, you've been in this for decades. Yeah, just 25. Wow. Yeah, just 25. Wow. Yeah, just 25. Wow. So, you've been at this for decades. And So, you've been at this for decades. And So, you've been at this for decades. And we talk on and offline. You're strong, we talk on and offline. You're strong, we talk on and offline. You're strong, vibrant, you love Jesus. Your love has vibrant, you love Jesus. Your love has vibrant, you love Jesus. Your love has grown. grown. grown. You have a great marriage. I saw Sue You have a great marriage. I saw Sue You have a great marriage. I saw Sue this morning. You know, all that stuff. this morning. You know, all that stuff. this morning. You know, all that stuff. The internal gauges are usually what The internal gauges are usually what The internal gauges are usually what takes a leader down. Absolutely. takes a leader down. Absolutely. takes a leader down. Absolutely. >> It 100%. >> It 100%. >> It 100%. >> Yeah, it's like Or vast. I >> Yeah, it's like Or vast. I >> Yeah, it's like Or vast. I way too many. way too many. way too many. It's It's absolutely crushing and It's It's absolutely crushing and It's It's absolutely crushing and heartbreaking to see. heartbreaking to see. heartbreaking to see. And I was talking with people about yet And I was talking with people about yet And I was talking with people about yet another failure this morning. You know, another failure this morning. You know, another failure this morning. You know, it happened a few years ago, but still it happened a few years ago, but still it happened a few years ago, but still devastates an area and just impacts so devastates an area and just impacts so devastates an area and just impacts so many. So, these internal gauges, what do many. So, these internal gauges, what do many. So, these internal gauges, what do you pay attention to if you're going to you pay attention to if you're going to you pay attention to if you're going to be a multiplier? What are you paying be a multiplier? What are you paying be a multiplier? What are you paying attention to? Four gauges.

attention to? Four gauges. attention to? Four gauges. And come from out of Luke chapter 2, And come from out of Luke chapter 2, And come from out of Luke chapter 2, verse 52. Jesus grew in wisdom and verse 52. Jesus grew in wisdom and verse 52. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor of God and man. That stature and favor of God and man. That stature and favor of God and man. That was my reading this morning. Oh, really? was my reading this morning. Oh, really? was my reading this morning. Oh, really? Oh, is it? Oh, is it? Oh, is it? And so, um And so, um And so, um the four gauges are relational, the four gauges are relational, the four gauges are relational, physical, physical, physical, mental, mental, mental, and spiritual. Okay. And and spiritual. Okay. And and spiritual. Okay. And >> I mean, in that case, show you here. So, >> I mean, in that case, show you here. So, >> I mean, in that case, show you here. So, it's like every day it's like every day it's like every day on my this This is my my journal here. on my this This is my my journal here. on my this This is my my journal here. Okay. Okay. Okay. And so, you can see it here. And so, you can see it here. And so, you can see it here. Wow, this Wow, this Wow, this uh you're rating yourself. Yeah. So, I uh you're rating yourself. Yeah. So, I uh you're rating yourself. Yeah. So, I write RPMS and then I actually put a write RPMS and then I actually put a write RPMS and then I actually put a little gauge and then I give myself I little gauge and then I give myself I little gauge and then I give myself I actually give myself a score. I was actually give myself a score. I was actually give myself a score. I was like, "Hit score." Yeah, that score 1 to like, "Hit score." Yeah, that score 1 to like, "Hit score." Yeah, that score 1 to 10. How am I doing relationally? 10. How am I doing relationally? 10. How am I doing relationally? Okay, it's a seven there. How many Okay, it's a seven there. How many Okay, it's a seven there. How many >> All right, I was going to read your >> All right, I was going to read your >> All right, I was going to read your numbers. I said, "No, I'm going to Show numbers. I said, "No, I'm going to Show numbers. I said, "No, I'm going to Show the camera." Sure. Well, yeah. And I the camera." Sure. Well, yeah. And I the camera." Sure. Well, yeah. And I mean, you're going to say it in a mean, you're going to say it in a mean, you're going to say it in a minute. It's Here's what you're going to minute. It's Here's what you're going to minute. It's Here's what you're going to say. say. say. On StrengthFinders, positivity is like On StrengthFinders, positivity is like On StrengthFinders, positivity is like number two or three. Okay. So, these are number two or three. Okay. So, these are number two or three. Okay. So, these are going to always skew like 6, 7, 8, 9. going to always skew like 6, 7, 8, 9. going to always skew like 6, 7, 8, 9. So, better than ones and twos. Well, So, better than ones and twos. Well, So, better than ones and twos. Well, that's because of positivity. Sometimes, that's because of positivity. Sometimes, that's because of positivity. Sometimes, if it's a one actually one or two, I'll if it's a one actually one or two, I'll if it's a one actually one or two, I'll probably end up looking like a three or probably end up looking like a three or probably end up looking like a three or four. But they're Yeah, so that's what four. But they're Yeah, so that's what four. But they're Yeah, so that's what it is. Okay. 775 on mental. Yeah. And it is. Okay. 775 on mental. Yeah. And it is. Okay. 775 on mental. Yeah. And then seven on spiritual. Why'd you give then seven on spiritual. Why'd you give then seven on spiritual. Why'd you give yourself a five? Uh right now, um like yourself a five? Uh right now, um like yourself a five? Uh right now, um like on the Sabbath stuff, on the Sabbath stuff, on the Sabbath stuff, I suck. Okay. Well, it is exponential. I I suck. Okay. Well, it is exponential. I I suck. Okay. Well, it is exponential. I mean, there's 5,000 people mean, there's 5,000 people mean, there's 5,000 people >> Okay, okay. So, you really can't. And I >> Okay, okay. So, you really can't. And I >> Okay, okay. So, you really can't. And I would And that's what I would like to would And that's what I would like to would And that's what I would like to tell the world is that we took But our tell the world is that we took But our tell the world is that we took But our truth The truth is I'm not great at

truth The truth is I'm not great at truth The truth is I'm not great at keeping that kind of a rhythm. So, uh keeping that kind of a rhythm. So, uh keeping that kind of a rhythm. So, uh the two things I'm working on on the the two things I'm working on on the the two things I'm working on on the mental part is and actually we actually mental part is and actually we actually mental part is and actually we actually for both we're working on a uh uh a for both we're working on a uh uh a for both we're working on a uh uh a multiplier check-in. Will do. And so, multiplier check-in. Will do. And so, multiplier check-in. Will do. And so, that you can actually do this now. that you can actually do this now. that you can actually do this now. Wow, so you just check in every day. Wow, so you just check in every day. Wow, so you just check in every day. Every day. And so, I've been doing that Every day. And so, I've been doing that Every day. And so, I've been doing that for the last couple weeks. And what the for the last couple weeks. And what the for the last couple weeks. And what the two things I said is one, I need to get two things I said is one, I need to get two things I said is one, I need to get a dream day on the calendar cuz a dream day on the calendar cuz a dream day on the calendar cuz I get so busy, I need to I get so busy, I need to I get so busy, I need to I need to have space just to dream cuz I need to have space just to dream cuz I need to have space just to dream cuz part of my job is to be in the future part of my job is to be in the future part of my job is to be in the future and the vision. But the other thing is I and the vision. But the other thing is I and the vision. But the other thing is I need to have a conversation with Sue need to have a conversation with Sue need to have a conversation with Sue about how we can do a better job about how we can do a better job about how we can do a better job of And it's not her, it's me. Uh So, of And it's not her, it's me. Uh So, of And it's not her, it's me. Uh So, just in case you might just in case you might just in case you might >> Yes. Just in Just in case. Yeah. >> Yes. Just in Just in case. Yeah. >> Yes. Just in Just in case. Yeah. Uh I'll do on the Sabbath. And so, even Uh I'll do on the Sabbath. And so, even Uh I'll do on the Sabbath. And so, even with even with the multiplier check-in, with even with the multiplier check-in, with even with the multiplier check-in, cuz they were bugging me about doing it. cuz they were bugging me about doing it. cuz they were bugging me about doing it. I said, "Hey, I'm not going to go do it I said, "Hey, I'm not going to go do it I said, "Hey, I'm not going to go do it till after Exponential." So, they're till after Exponential." So, they're till after Exponential." So, they're like, "Okay." And they got Now, I got to like, "Okay." And they got Now, I got to like, "Okay." And they got Now, I got to be in the calendar running it after be in the calendar running it after be in the calendar running it after Exponential. So, that's why that post is Exponential. So, that's why that post is Exponential. So, that's why that post is tomorrow right now. Well, that's honest. tomorrow right now. Well, that's honest. tomorrow right now. Well, that's honest. So, I don't know the data or even a gut So, I don't know the data or even a gut So, I don't know the data or even a gut sense because you work with so many sense because you work with so many sense because you work with so many different leaders, different leaders, different leaders, but if most leaders are going to get but if most leaders are going to get but if most leaders are going to get into trouble, which is the low gauge, into trouble, which is the low gauge, into trouble, which is the low gauge, which tends to be? I have a theory, but which tends to be? I have a theory, but which tends to be? I have a theory, but I have no data. Mhm.

I have no data. Mhm. I have no data. Mhm. Like if you look at it cuz spiritual, Like if you look at it cuz spiritual, Like if you look at it cuz spiritual, I mean, I mean, I mean, I've read my Bible every Not every day, I've read my Bible every Not every day, I've read my Bible every Not every day, but I'm going to say 98% of the days for but I'm going to say 98% of the days for but I'm going to say 98% of the days for the last 25, 30 years, I've I've read my the last 25, 30 years, I've I've read my the last 25, 30 years, I've I've read my Bible. I pray every day. And if, you Bible. I pray every day. And if, you Bible. I pray every day. And if, you know, if you're a pastor type, you're know, if you're a pastor type, you're know, if you're a pastor type, you're probably working on a sermon, so you're probably working on a sermon, so you're probably working on a sermon, so you're going to still give yourself a little going to still give yourself a little going to still give yourself a little bit of a better score there. bit of a better score there. bit of a better score there. >> Yeah, yeah. So, you >> Yeah, yeah. So, you >> Yeah, yeah. So, you I don't know too many atheist pastors, I don't know too many atheist pastors, I don't know too many atheist pastors, right? A family, you know. But I'm just right? A family, you know. But I'm just right? A family, you know. But I'm just curious. So, I wonder curious. So, I wonder curious. So, I wonder I would I'm going to say the mental or I would I'm going to say the mental or I would I'm going to say the mental or physical gauge. What's your guess? Oh, I physical gauge. What's your guess? Oh, I physical gauge. What's your guess? Oh, I was going to say relational. was going to say relational. was going to say relational. Yeah, I just want to Well, physical Yeah, I just want to Well, physical Yeah, I just want to Well, physical Physical can be a thing and it depends Physical can be a thing and it depends Physical can be a thing and it depends what tribe you're at. Like you can If what tribe you're at. Like you can If what tribe you're at. Like you can If you're with church planters, most of you're with church planters, most of you're with church planters, most of them are like working out, running hard, them are like working out, running hard, them are like working out, running hard, and they're in good physical shape. and they're in good physical shape. and they're in good physical shape. >> Oh, you're saying Are you saying this >> Oh, you're saying Are you saying this >> Oh, you're saying Are you saying this one's the better one or the or the hard one's the better one or the or the hard one's the better one or the or the hard I would say the ones that are low on the I would say the ones that are low on the I would say the ones that are low on the the barrel state, to borrow some old the barrel state, to borrow some old the barrel state, to borrow some old language from the Natural Church language from the Natural Church language from the Natural Church Development. I don't remember Remember Development. I don't remember Remember Development. I don't remember Remember that. Yeah. Uh I would say relational.

that. Yeah. Uh I would say relational. that. Yeah. Uh I would say relational. Okay. That pastors The data seems to Okay. That pastors The data seems to Okay. That pastors The data seems to show Okay. That most pastors don't have show Okay. That most pastors don't have show Okay. That most pastors don't have people they can really tie people they can really tie people they can really tie They're lonely, and loneliness is a They're lonely, and loneliness is a They're lonely, and loneliness is a choice. It doesn't have to be. And the choice. It doesn't have to be. And the choice. It doesn't have to be. And the other would be mental. The the mental other would be mental. The the mental other would be mental. The the mental health just so discouraged. You're a health just so discouraged. You're a health just so discouraged. You're a positive person, generally a positive positive person, generally a positive positive person, generally a positive person, person, person, but that sort of general That would be but that sort of general That would be but that sort of general That would be my guess. What's your take? You think my guess. What's your take? You think my guess. What's your take? You think it's physical? it's physical? it's physical? No, no, no. I I It's funny cuz I haven't No, no, no. I I It's funny cuz I haven't No, no, no. I I It's funny cuz I haven't really I don't spend a lot of time really I don't spend a lot of time really I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I would have But I thinking about it. I would have But I thinking about it. I would have But I would have probably, as we were getting would have probably, as we were getting would have probably, as we were getting into it, I probably would have said uh into it, I probably would have said uh into it, I probably would have said uh mental or physical. Yeah. Uh because I mental or physical. Yeah. Uh because I mental or physical. Yeah. Uh because I think physically, when you're tired and think physically, when you're tired and think physically, when you're tired and you're drained, you're you're you're drained, you're you're you're drained, you're you're susceptible to depression, you're susceptible to depression, you're susceptible to depression, you're susceptible to, I mean, all kinds of susceptible to, I mean, all kinds of susceptible to, I mean, all kinds of sins relationally. Yes. So, I would say sins relationally. Yes. So, I would say sins relationally. Yes. So, I would say that is probably And maybe this cuz this that is probably And maybe this cuz this that is probably And maybe this cuz this is the crowd I run into or myself is the crowd I run into or myself is the crowd I run into or myself because I'm projecting. because I'm projecting. because I'm projecting. >> You're pretty fit. Um no, but I'm No, >> You're pretty fit. Um no, but I'm No, >> You're pretty fit. Um no, but I'm No, but I'm saying what I don't What I'm but I'm saying what I don't What I'm but I'm saying what I don't What I'm I do stay in good shape, but I also I do stay in good shape, but I also I do stay in good shape, but I also could run too hard. And if you're could run too hard. And if you're could run too hard. And if you're running too hard, you're exhausted, and running too hard, you're exhausted, and running too hard, you're exhausted, and that exhaustion can lead to a low that exhaustion can lead to a low that exhaustion can lead to a low relational or low that That's true.

relational or low that That's true. relational or low that That's true. Physical is more than it's what shape Physical is more than it's what shape Physical is more than it's what shape you're in. I Yes, it's it's your rest, you're in. I Yes, it's it's your rest, you're in. I Yes, it's it's your rest, it's your nutrition. Honestly, you know, it's your nutrition. Honestly, you know, it's your nutrition. Honestly, you know, what's important After I burned out, what's important After I burned out, what's important After I burned out, that's been like I was sleep crusader. that's been like I was sleep crusader. that's been like I was sleep crusader. Last night, cuz I knew today was going Last night, cuz I knew today was going Last night, cuz I knew today was going to be a really busy day starting with a to be a really busy day starting with a to be a really busy day starting with a breakfast meeting with some of your breakfast meeting with some of your breakfast meeting with some of your team. And then this interview, I've got team. And then this interview, I've got team. And then this interview, I've got an hour-long breakout, I've got dinner an hour-long breakout, I've got dinner an hour-long breakout, I've got dinner tonight, and a couple of other things. I tonight, and a couple of other things. I tonight, and a couple of other things. I went to bed at 9:00. went to bed at 9:00. went to bed at 9:00. Cuz I'm like, all right, I got to I got Cuz I'm like, all right, I got to I got Cuz I'm like, all right, I got to I got to show up today. And if I was out to show up today. And if I was out to show up today. And if I was out hanging out with people till 11:00, hanging out with people till 11:00, hanging out with people till 11:00, yeah, I'm still be a worse interviewer yeah, I'm still be a worse interviewer yeah, I'm still be a worse interviewer and a worse presenter and all that and a worse presenter and all that and a worse presenter and all that stuff. stuff. stuff. Interesting, cuz, you know, your Interesting, cuz, you know, your Interesting, cuz, you know, your brother's floating around here. I was brother's floating around here. I was brother's floating around here. I was First of all, there's family dynamics First of all, there's family dynamics First of all, there's family dynamics there, which is great. And like you and there, which is great. And like you and there, which is great. And like you and your brother seem to be genuine friends. your brother seem to be genuine friends. your brother seem to be genuine friends. And you've been in the same community And you've been in the same community And you've been in the same community now for 40 years. Why is the church you now for 40 years. Why is the church you now for 40 years. Why is the church you did the whole run together? Did the did the whole run together? Did the did the whole run together? Did the whole run together? You've got long-term whole run together? You've got long-term whole run together? You've got long-term abiding relationships. Where I think you abiding relationships. Where I think you abiding relationships. Where I think you can go deep. You can say anything to can go deep. You can say anything to can go deep. You can say anything to John, your brother. Yeah. You can say John, your brother. Yeah. You can say John, your brother. Yeah. You can say anything. If you'll say And he'll say anything. If you'll say And he'll say anything. If you'll say And he'll say anything to you. That's right. 100%.

anything to you. That's right. 100%. anything to you. That's right. 100%. >> been good. So, that's been really good. >> been good. So, that's been really good. >> been good. So, that's been really good. You've got those kinds of friendships, You've got those kinds of friendships, You've got those kinds of friendships, but a lot of pastors, according to the but a lot of pastors, according to the but a lot of pastors, according to the data, just don't What have been the key data, just don't What have been the key data, just don't What have been the key to long-term friendships for you? I I And again, there there's sometimes And again, there there's sometimes And again, there there's sometimes though where there's different seasons, though where there's different seasons, though where there's different seasons, and I've had to be more intentional and I've had to be more intentional and I've had to be more intentional about it. So, like it Like even about it. So, like it Like even about it. So, like it Like even recently. So, John and I both moved into recently. So, John and I both moved into recently. So, John and I both moved into now uh founding pastor role. Right. now uh founding pastor role. Right. now uh founding pastor role. Right. Which basically means I'm staying out of Which basically means I'm staying out of Which basically means I'm staying out of his head's way. his head's way. his head's way. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I am providing some coaching, I'm >> I am providing some coaching, I'm >> I am providing some coaching, I'm teaching like eight times a year. Sure. teaching like eight times a year. Sure. teaching like eight times a year. Sure. And doing stuff with church planting. And doing stuff with church planting. And doing stuff with church planting. But uh And so, John and I don't run into But uh And so, John and I don't run into But uh And so, John and I don't run into each other in the hallways like we did. each other in the hallways like we did. each other in the hallways like we did. And so, like I text him the other day, I And so, like I text him the other day, I And so, like I text him the other day, I said, "Hey, let's let's said, "Hey, let's let's said, "Hey, let's let's What if And I text him with Sue first. I What if And I text him with Sue first. I What if And I text him with Sue first. I said, Let's get a weekend away where we said, Let's get a weekend away where we said, Let's get a weekend away where we go do something. Yeah. And like neither go do something. Yeah. And like neither go do something. Yeah. And like neither Like Like Like he golfs a little bit, I don't really he golfs a little bit, I don't really he golfs a little bit, I don't really golf. And they golfed once in the last golf. And they golfed once in the last golf. And they golfed once in the last year. So, if Why don't we just go golf? year. So, if Why don't we just go golf? year. So, if Why don't we just go golf? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know And he's like, so anyways, so And I know And he's like, so anyways, so And I know And he's like, so anyways, so we got the day on the calendar where we got the day on the calendar where we got the day on the calendar where it's just going to be me and her for 3 it's just going to be me and her for 3 it's just going to be me and her for 3 days, and we're going to take off. And days, and we're going to take off. And days, and we're going to take off. And it really is it's trying to be it really is it's trying to be it really is it's trying to be intentional because I do value that intentional because I do value that intentional because I do value that relationship.

relationship. relationship. And I know it's not going to And I know it's not going to And I know it's not going to accidentally happen. I think And some accidentally happen. I think And some accidentally happen. I think And some way drift is always accidental and way drift is always accidental and way drift is always accidental and unintentional. 100% unintentional. 100% unintentional. 100% Like you and have a great relationship Like you and have a great relationship Like you and have a great relationship with John, and something changed. You're with John, and something changed. You're with John, and something changed. You're both founding now. Yeah. And we're 9 both founding now. Yeah. And we're 9 both founding now. Yeah. And we're 9 years later and you're like, wait a years later and you're like, wait a years later and you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, I've only seen him at minute. Yeah, I've only seen him at minute. Yeah, I've only seen him at Christmas time when the family gets Christmas time when the family gets Christmas time when the family gets together. Exactly. Right, and I don't together. Exactly. Right, and I don't together. Exactly. Right, and I don't want that. Yeah, with my best friend, want that. Yeah, with my best friend, want that. Yeah, with my best friend, because we don't live in the same city, because we don't live in the same city, because we don't live in the same city, we do at least one trip a year we do at least one trip a year we do at least one trip a year intentionally. We're just going to hang intentionally. We're just going to hang intentionally. We're just going to hang out. We text every day. out. We text every day. out. We text every day. But you have to be intentional about it. But you have to be intentional about it. But you have to be intentional about it. So, you've you've learned that. So, you've you've learned that. So, you've you've learned that. >> Right. And that's And that is a big >> Right. And that's And that is a big >> Right. And that's And that is a big theme, especially the first half of the theme, especially the first half of the theme, especially the first half of the book here. Is that what happens with book here. Is that what happens with book here. Is that what happens with this very word you use, drift. What this very word you use, drift. What this very word you use, drift. What happens to a lot of leaders is you end happens to a lot of leaders is you end happens to a lot of leaders is you end up someplace you never intended to be. I up someplace you never intended to be. I up someplace you never intended to be. I can Cuz you just a little bit of And I can Cuz you just a little bit of And I can Cuz you just a little bit of And I tell the I use the example, if you're tell the I use the example, if you're tell the I use the example, if you're just walking from here to your just walking from here to your just walking from here to your neighbor's house down the block, you neighbor's house down the block, you neighbor's house down the block, you drift by 1 degree. drift by 1 degree. drift by 1 degree. I mean, you'll get to your neighbor's I mean, you'll get to your neighbor's I mean, you'll get to your neighbor's alley. You don't notice they don't alley. You don't notice they don't alley. You don't notice they don't notice the ripples. But if you fly from notice the ripples. But if you fly from notice the ripples. But if you fly from Chicago to Orlando Chicago to Orlando Chicago to Orlando and you drift by 1 degree at a long and you drift by 1 degree at a long and you drift by 1 degree at a long distance or a long time being the ocean, distance or a long time being the ocean, distance or a long time being the ocean, You'll end up in the Atlantic Ocean.

You'll end up in the Atlantic Ocean. You'll end up in the Atlantic Ocean. That's exactly right. You end up some That's exactly right. You end up some That's exactly right. You end up some And And And I mean, I I mean, I I mean, I On a serious kind of note, I mean, I On a serious kind of note, I mean, I On a serious kind of note, I mean, I have a voicemail have a voicemail have a voicemail that I saved since 2018. But I play occasionally But I play occasionally just to remind me of what can happen. just to remind me of what can happen. just to remind me of what can happen. Over drifts. Right. Well, you're in a Over drifts. Right. Well, you're in a Over drifts. Right. Well, you're in a city where you've seen a couple of the city where you've seen a couple of the city where you've seen a couple of the major churches lose their leaders to major churches lose their leaders to major churches lose their leaders to off. Right. Chicago. And I was in a off. Right. Chicago. And I was in a off. Right. Chicago. And I was in a small group. Out of a spiritual pulse of small group. Out of a spiritual pulse of small group. Out of a spiritual pulse of We would get together four or five times We would get together four or five times We would get together four or five times a year. The some of the largest pastors a year. The some of the largest pastors a year. The some of the largest pastors of the largest churches. of the largest churches. of the largest churches. And uh And uh And uh I mean, if we tried to reassemble that I mean, if we tried to reassemble that I mean, if we tried to reassemble that group, I mean, there'd be several chairs group, I mean, there'd be several chairs group, I mean, there'd be several chairs and Ted be empty. And And I and Ted be empty. And And I and Ted be empty. And And I I don't know how to exactly And I want I don't know how to exactly And I want I don't know how to exactly And I want to parse exactly right. But I But I to parse exactly right. But I But I to parse exactly right. But I But I think I think drift is a way you can think I think drift is a way you can think I think drift is a way you can explain it because I think some of those folks ended up someplace some of those folks ended up someplace they they never intended to be. Right. they they never intended to be. Right. they they never intended to be. Right. That wasn't the plan It wasn't the plan.

That wasn't the plan It wasn't the plan. That wasn't the plan It wasn't the plan. You're going to plant this thing and You're going to plant this thing and You're going to plant this thing and then I'm going to have an affair. Right. then I'm going to have an affair. Right. then I'm going to have an affair. Right. Nobody ever comes to you and goes, "Hey, Nobody ever comes to you and goes, "Hey, Nobody ever comes to you and goes, "Hey, I'm going to be a deal You've never had I'm going to be a deal You've never had I'm going to be a deal You've never had a leader come to you like, you know a leader come to you like, you know a leader come to you like, you know what? Hey, here's my dream. 15 years what? Hey, here's my dream. 15 years what? Hey, here's my dream. 15 years from now, I hope I'm 50 lb overweight, from now, I hope I'm 50 lb overweight, from now, I hope I'm 50 lb overweight, I'm divorced, and compromising my moral I'm divorced, and compromising my moral I'm divorced, and compromising my moral convictions." Exactly. But you said like convictions." Exactly. But you said like convictions." Exactly. But you said like yesterday or whatever, you're you're yesterday or whatever, you're you're yesterday or whatever, you're you're you're talking about yet another. And I you're talking about yet another. And I you're talking about yet another. And I think And that's where think And that's where think And that's where like this thing here, yeah, I'm not like this thing here, yeah, I'm not like this thing here, yeah, I'm not going to say it's foolproof. going to say it's foolproof. going to say it's foolproof. No, but No, but No, but And this sounds like an infomercial, but And this sounds like an infomercial, but And this sounds like an infomercial, but it's true for me. it's true for me. it's true for me. If you'll spend If you'll spend If you'll spend 4 minutes like 1 minute every on each of 4 minutes like 1 minute every on each of 4 minutes like 1 minute every on each of these gauges every day, just going like, these gauges every day, just going like, these gauges every day, just going like, how am I doing? how am I doing? how am I doing? At least you're aware. It's a At least you're aware. It's a At least you're aware. It's a self-awareness going, okay, hey look, self-awareness going, okay, hey look, self-awareness going, okay, hey look, I'm starting to drift a little bit I'm starting to drift a little bit I'm starting to drift a little bit mentally cuz you know, who am I kidding mentally cuz you know, who am I kidding mentally cuz you know, who am I kidding about? I teach on Sabbath. I was doing about? I teach on Sabbath. I was doing about? I teach on Sabbath. I was doing great on it. great on it. great on it. Right. And And a day becomes a week Right. And And a day becomes a week Right. And And a day becomes a week becomes a month becomes a season. And becomes a month becomes a season. And becomes a month becomes a season. And pretty soon you're in the Atlantic pretty soon you're in the Atlantic pretty soon you're in the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah. Someplace you never Ocean. Yeah. Someplace you never Ocean. Yeah. Someplace you never intended to be. Physical though, you intended to be. Physical though, you intended to be. Physical though, you you're always running. If you you know, you're always running. If you you know, you're always running. If you you know, you're podcast listener too, which is you're podcast listener too, which is you're podcast listener too, which is really cool. Uh I'm amazed at how many really cool. Uh I'm amazed at how many really cool. Uh I'm amazed at how many people listen to the podcast, but when people listen to the podcast, but when people listen to the podcast, but when we connect, you'll be like, "How's the we connect, you'll be like, "How's the we connect, you'll be like, "How's the run?" And I heard this interview. Oh run?" And I heard this interview. Oh run?" And I heard this interview. Oh yeah, I think I really I really like yeah, I think I really I really like yeah, I think I really I really like what you said a couple months ago. I'm what you said a couple months ago. I'm what you said a couple months ago. I'm like, "Oh, that was awesome." Harry, like, "Oh, that was awesome." Harry, like, "Oh, that was awesome." Harry, that she's great. But you're running I that she's great. But you're running I that she's great. But you're running I mean, still, and you've kept that up.

mean, still, and you've kept that up. mean, still, and you've kept that up. What has kept you physically What has kept you physically What has kept you physically disciplined, and what is the benefit to disciplined, and what is the benefit to disciplined, and what is the benefit to that? that? that? Um Um Um I feel like I feel like I feel like when if you're physically in decent when if you're physically in decent when if you're physically in decent shape, shape, shape, you just Cuz you show up as a whole you just Cuz you show up as a whole you just Cuz you show up as a whole person. person. person. And it gives you you know this I bet you And it gives you you know this I bet you And it gives you you know this I bet you anything Cuz you went there, Russ. anything Cuz you went there, Russ. anything Cuz you went there, Russ. But dude, I was sick a year ago. But dude, I was sick a year ago. But dude, I was sick a year ago. >> Right. And I bet you kind of And you >> Right. And I bet you kind of And you >> Right. And I bet you kind of And you kind of show up and you kind of kind of show up and you kind of kind of show up and you kind of you're going like, "Ah, man, I just" You you're going like, "Ah, man, I just" You you're going like, "Ah, man, I just" You don't show up the same kind of don't show up the same kind of don't show up the same kind of confidence. No. I'll Even something as confidence. No. I'll Even something as confidence. No. I'll Even something as simple as this. So, like Saturday, I was simple as this. So, like Saturday, I was simple as this. So, like Saturday, I was repla- I got I wear one contact. Like repla- I got I wear one contact. Like repla- I got I wear one contact. Like one contact in this eye. That's great. one contact in this eye. That's great. one contact in this eye. That's great. And random facts about Dave. One And random facts about Dave. One And random facts about Dave. One contact. I was replacing the contact, contact. I was replacing the contact, contact. I was replacing the contact, and I kind of poked myself in the eye. and I kind of poked myself in the eye. and I kind of poked myself in the eye. And so like during the meeting Saturday And so like during the meeting Saturday And so like during the meeting Saturday and Sunday, it was kind of red, I and Sunday, it was kind of red, I and Sunday, it was kind of red, I couldn't see as well. And you could just couldn't see as well. And you could just couldn't see as well. And you could just the way you show up, you kind of like, the way you show up, you kind of like, the way you show up, you kind of like, you know, or someone says, "Oh, you Are you know, or someone says, "Oh, you Are you know, or someone says, "Oh, you Are you tired?" You know, you know. you tired?" You know, you know. you tired?" You know, you know. And And And And so you are a whole person, and I And so you are a whole person, and I And so you are a whole person, and I think that's a really important part of think that's a really important part of think that's a really important part of who you are, and it allows you to I who you are, and it allows you to I who you are, and it allows you to I think in some ways think in some ways think in some ways I I can challenge leaders with this. I I I can challenge leaders with this. I I I can challenge leaders with this. I say, say, say, "God gave you a good body, and he "God gave you a good body, and he "God gave you a good body, and he probably meant for a lot of you to be probably meant for a lot of you to be probably meant for a lot of you to be make a difference for 75 or 80 years.

make a difference for 75 or 80 years. make a difference for 75 or 80 years. Some of you are going to check out at 55 Some of you are going to check out at 55 Some of you are going to check out at 55 or 65. or 65. or 65. Well, that's Well, I have it And God's Well, that's Well, I have it And God's Well, that's Well, I have it And God's going to be like, "Hey, you're a little going to be like, "Hey, you're a little going to be like, "Hey, you're a little early. What do you Welcome, but I have early. What do you Welcome, but I have early. What do you Welcome, but I have our 10 or 15 years for you." our 10 or 15 years for you." our 10 or 15 years for you." Well, and the hard part is you can cheat Well, and the hard part is you can cheat Well, and the hard part is you can cheat in your 20s and 30s. Yeah. Like when I'm in your 20s and 30s. Yeah. Like when I'm in your 20s and 30s. Yeah. Like when I'm I don't know if you have this with your I don't know if you have this with your I don't know if you have this with your grown kids, but you're vacationing, grown kids, but you're vacationing, grown kids, but you're vacationing, you're watching what they're eating. you're watching what they're eating. you're watching what they're eating. It's like you fool away. Oh, I can't get It's like you fool away. Oh, I can't get It's like you fool away. Oh, I can't get away with it anymore. There was a There away with it anymore. There was a There away with it anymore. There was a There was And then And then it's So, like when was And then And then it's So, like when was And then And then it's So, like when we first planted the church, I'm we first planted the church, I'm we first planted the church, I'm probably in my late 20s, early 30s, they probably in my late 20s, early 30s, they probably in my late 20s, early 30s, they had a story on what leaders eat for had a story on what leaders eat for had a story on what leaders eat for breakfast. breakfast. breakfast. >> In the Oval newspaper. And everybody >> In the Oval newspaper. And everybody >> In the Oval newspaper. And everybody else was kind of like, you know, else was kind of like, you know, else was kind of like, you know, something healthy, something healthy. something healthy, something healthy. something healthy, something healthy. And they got to me, and it was Dunkin' And they got to me, and it was Dunkin' And they got to me, and it was Dunkin' Donuts. Donuts. Donuts. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I felt like Homer Simpson, you know, >> I felt like Homer Simpson, you know, >> I felt like Homer Simpson, you know, donut. donut. donut. But I mean, you're right. And you can But I mean, you're right. And you can But I mean, you're right. And you can get away with it for a little while. And get away with it for a little while. And get away with it for a little while. And still run 10K. Young Moya. Yeah. Okay, still run 10K. Young Moya. Yeah. Okay, still run 10K. Young Moya. Yeah. Okay, well, then those are the Those are the well, then those are the Those are the well, then those are the Those are the gauges. And I think gauges. And I think gauges. And I think that's been really critical. And you that's been really critical. And you that's been really critical. And you know, I would say, Dave, it's really know, I would say, Dave, it's really know, I would say, Dave, it's really nice, and there are examples as nice, and there are examples as nice, and there are examples as it's easy to become cynical. It's easy it's easy to become cynical. It's easy it's easy to become cynical. It's easy to look out and go, "Everyone's having to look out and go, "Everyone's having to look out and go, "Everyone's having affair. Everybody's failing. Everyone's affair. Everybody's failing. Everyone's affair. Everybody's failing. Everyone's going to flame out." Like going to flame out." Like going to flame out." Like you know, you've done decades of you know, you've done decades of you know, you've done decades of leadership, your tank is still full.

leadership, your tank is still full. leadership, your tank is still full. You've got to refill it daily. You've got to refill it daily. You've got to refill it daily. It's still full, and you're running with It's still full, and you're running with It's still full, and you're running with momentum into the future, which I think momentum into the future, which I think momentum into the future, which I think is admirable, and is admirable, and is admirable, and there are literally thousands of pastors there are literally thousands of pastors there are literally thousands of pastors doing that in their 50s, 60s, and doing that in their 50s, 60s, and doing that in their 50s, 60s, and beyond. So, that's awesome. What are the beyond. So, that's awesome. What are the beyond. So, that's awesome. What are the other um four or gauges, the four other um four or gauges, the four other um four or gauges, the four practices that you look for with a practices that you look for with a practices that you look for with a multiplier? Because I think deep down, multiplier? Because I think deep down, multiplier? Because I think deep down, you know, you've already set the case, you know, you've already set the case, you know, you've already set the case, yeah, most of us if we're building our yeah, most of us if we're building our yeah, most of us if we're building our little castle, not so much thinking little castle, not so much thinking little castle, not so much thinking about the kingdom. about the kingdom. about the kingdom. It's like, well, if you want to It's like, well, if you want to It's like, well, if you want to be a multiplying leader, what are the be a multiplying leader, what are the be a multiplying leader, what are the four practices? four practices? four practices? >> Yeah. And these again, like the four >> Yeah. And these again, like the four >> Yeah. And these again, like the four gauges come from Life Choose Four gauges come from Life Choose Four gauges come from Life Choose Four Practices. Number one is you make Practices. Number one is you make Practices. Number one is you make disciples. disciples. disciples. What does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean? I think uh I think uh I think uh Well, one is I would I would define a Well, one is I would I would define a Well, one is I would I would define a disciple as someone who hears from God disciple as someone who hears from God disciple as someone who hears from God and does what he says. Okay. and does what he says. Okay. and does what he says. Okay. I like that definition. I like that definition. I like that definition. >> It's I mean, yeah. Simple reproduce one >> It's I mean, yeah. Simple reproduce one >> It's I mean, yeah. Simple reproduce one to stand. to stand. to stand. So, and I think here's the best way for So, and I think here's the best way for So, and I think here's the best way for you to decide if you're actually doing you to decide if you're actually doing you to decide if you're actually doing that. If you can name somebody that. If you can name somebody that. If you can name somebody that you're saying, "I'm making a that you're saying, "I'm making a that you're saying, "I'm making a disciple maker."

disciple maker." disciple maker." And they would name you. And they would name you. And they would name you. If it goes both ways, then you're doing If it goes both ways, then you're doing If it goes both ways, then you're doing the work. the work. the work. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Does that make sense? And so, this is personal. This isn't Oh, And so, this is personal. This isn't Oh, And so, this is personal. This isn't Oh, I I preach great sermons. No. I I preach great sermons. No. I I preach great sermons. No. No, and I And I get I I, you know, I No, and I And I get I I, you know, I No, and I And I get I I, you know, I talk in front of people a lot. talk in front of people a lot. talk in front of people a lot. But I have actually convinced that But I have actually convinced that But I have actually convinced that the multiplier The difference a the multiplier The difference a the multiplier The difference a multiplier is going to make in both of multiplier is going to make in both of multiplier is going to make in both of us is going to be around kitchen tables, us is going to be around kitchen tables, us is going to be around kitchen tables, going to be at Starbucks, at Panera's. going to be at Starbucks, at Panera's. going to be at Starbucks, at Panera's. It's going to be, you know, in living It's going to be, you know, in living It's going to be, you know, in living rooms. It's those Relationships are the rooms. It's those Relationships are the rooms. It's those Relationships are the catalyst for future growth. catalyst for future growth. catalyst for future growth. The big Yeah, big platforms these days. The big Yeah, big platforms these days. The big Yeah, big platforms these days. That's That's helpful, but it's not It's That's That's helpful, but it's not It's That's That's helpful, but it's not It's not like relationship. And this is what not like relationship. And this is what not like relationship. And this is what Jesus did. He would out say, "Okay, Jesus did. He would out say, "Okay, Jesus did. He would out say, "Okay, here's 12." here's 12." here's 12." And then the second practice And then the second practice And then the second practice is he put them into a spiritual is he put them into a spiritual is he put them into a spiritual community. community. community. And so, second prize would always is a And so, second prize would always is a And so, second prize would always is a spiritual community. And I I spiritual community. And I I spiritual community. And I I intentionally use generic language cuz intentionally use generic language cuz intentionally use generic language cuz some people want to call them small some people want to call them small some people want to call them small groups, some call them missional groups, some call them missional groups, some call them missional communities, some call them LTGs. communities, some call them LTGs. communities, some call them LTGs. Whatever you I don't care what you want Whatever you I don't care what you want Whatever you I don't care what you want to call them. to call them. to call them. But you pull together into a community But you pull together into a community But you pull together into a community because again, relationships are the So because again, relationships are the So because again, relationships are the So does this mean that that you're part of does this mean that that you're part of does this mean that that you're part of a small group at your church or this is a small group at your church or this is a small group at your church or this is a different intentional small group? I a different intentional small group? I a different intentional small group? I don't care. Oh, you don't care. No, but don't care. Oh, you don't care. No, but don't care. Oh, you don't care. No, but you're in community. You're in you're in community. You're in you're in community. You're in community, you're doing life with other community, you're doing life with other community, you're doing life with other people that Yeah, but these other people people that Yeah, but these other people people that Yeah, but these other people that are you're just making disciples that are you're just making disciples that are you're just making disciples makers. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's makers. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's makers. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's practice number one. And then I had two.

practice number one. And then I had two. practice number one. And then I had two. Practice That's practice No, practice Practice That's practice No, practice Practice That's practice No, practice number one is make disciple makers. number one is make disciple makers. number one is make disciple makers. Okay, and then practice two is you Okay, and then practice two is you Okay, and then practice two is you establish spiritual communities. Jesus establish spiritual communities. Jesus establish spiritual communities. Jesus says, "Come follow me. I'm going to says, "Come follow me. I'm going to says, "Come follow me. I'm going to begin to disciples." And he puts them in begin to disciples." And he puts them in begin to disciples." And he puts them in the They're in this group, they're doing the They're in this group, they're doing the They're in this group, they're doing life together. And the third one is you life together. And the third one is you life together. And the third one is you mobilize new leaders. You look around mobilize new leaders. You look around mobilize new leaders. You look around your missional community, you look your missional community, you look your missional community, you look around your small group, maybe in some around your small group, maybe in some around your small group, maybe in some cases even your staff team. You go, cases even your staff team. You go, cases even your staff team. You go, like, "Okay, who's ready for a new like, "Okay, who's ready for a new like, "Okay, who's ready for a new assignment? And how do I give them" Back assignment? And how do I give them" Back assignment? And how do I give them" Back to what we talked before, give them to what we talked before, give them to what we talked before, give them permission, let go of control, ask them, permission, let go of control, ask them, permission, let go of control, ask them, "What's the dream? How can I help?" You "What's the dream? How can I help?" You "What's the dream? How can I help?" You know, be a hero maker. How do you know, be a hero maker. How do you know, be a hero maker. How do you mobilize those new leaders? Like Jesus, mobilize those new leaders? Like Jesus, mobilize those new leaders? Like Jesus, send them out two by two. send them out two by two. send them out two by two. After they've been in a community for a After they've been in a community for a After they've been in a community for a while. while. while. Like Rick, who's in my small group, Like Rick, who's in my small group, Like Rick, who's in my small group, yeah? You know, Rick's going like, "Hey, yeah? You know, Rick's going like, "Hey, yeah? You know, Rick's going like, "Hey, could I start something with the special could I start something with the special could I start something with the special needs people?" Yeah. It's all right. needs people?" Yeah. It's all right. needs people?" Yeah. It's all right. Look at brown Look at brown Look at brown You know, the coffee table in our small You know, the coffee table in our small You know, the coffee table in our small group. You commission them. You go, group. You commission them. You go, group. You commission them. You go, like, "Okay, you go get them." like, "Okay, you go get them." like, "Okay, you go get them." It's This is really It's This is really It's This is really what we've tried to do in multiplier. what we've tried to do in multiplier. what we've tried to do in multiplier. And I think the it's simple to And I think the it's simple to And I think the it's simple to understand. understand. understand. Who are you making disciples? Put them Who are you making disciples? Put them Who are you making disciples? Put them in the spiritual community, mobilize. in the spiritual community, mobilize. in the spiritual community, mobilize. But to keep doing it over and over It It But to keep doing it over and over It It But to keep doing it over and over It It takes some rigor and discipline. It's It takes some rigor and discipline. It's It takes some rigor and discipline. It's It does. It is intentionality. And it's not does. It is intentionality. And it's not does. It is intentionality. And it's not hard to understand. Mhm.

hard to understand. Mhm. hard to understand. Mhm. And then what's the fourth? And the And then what's the fourth? And the And then what's the fourth? And the fourth one is then you launch church fourth one is then you launch church fourth one is then you launch church expressions. expressions. expressions. Cuz some of those folks, okay? Some of Cuz some of those folks, okay? Some of Cuz some of those folks, okay? Some of those folks have that capacity and what those folks have that capacity and what those folks have that capacity and what there is a dream for a different kind of there is a dream for a different kind of there is a dream for a different kind of I say launch church expressions. Again, I say launch church expressions. Again, I say launch church expressions. Again, giving permission. We need all kinds of giving permission. We need all kinds of giving permission. We need all kinds of churches for all kinds of people. churches for all kinds of people. churches for all kinds of people. And so back to the example of Rick. Hey, And so back to the example of Rick. Hey, And so back to the example of Rick. Hey, he had this dream. Yeah, let's let's he had this dream. Yeah, let's let's he had this dream. Yeah, let's let's give it a go. give it a go. give it a go. And and you give them permission. So, And and you give them permission. So, And and you give them permission. So, you've done this over and over again. I you've done this over and over again. I you've done this over and over again. I think one of the fears, talking about think one of the fears, talking about think one of the fears, talking about the fear that a lot of leaders watching the fear that a lot of leaders watching the fear that a lot of leaders watching this, listening to this would have this, listening to this would have this, listening to this would have would be like, "Do I really have to let would be like, "Do I really have to let would be like, "Do I really have to let my best leaders go?" And I imagine my best leaders go?" And I imagine my best leaders go?" And I imagine you've commissioned staff over the you've commissioned staff over the you've commissioned staff over the years, some staff that you worked really years, some staff that you worked really years, some staff that you worked really hard hard hard to develop and hire, and now you're to develop and hire, and now you're to develop and hire, and now you're sending them away either across town or sending them away either across town or sending them away either across town or to a different part of the country or to a different part of the country or to a different part of the country or overseas. overseas. overseas. A lot of leaders really struggle with A lot of leaders really struggle with A lot of leaders really struggle with that. that. that. What What What What advice do you give them if they're What advice do you give them if they're What advice do you give them if they're like, "Oh, really? I got to Do you know like, "Oh, really? I got to Do you know like, "Oh, really? I got to Do you know how hard I fought for this executive how hard I fought for this executive how hard I fought for this executive pastor? Do you know what a great job she pastor? Do you know what a great job she pastor? Do you know what a great job she is doing, he's doing? And then I got to is doing, he's doing? And then I got to is doing, he's doing? And then I got to give them away? And I got to give away give them away? And I got to give away give them away? And I got to give away Wait, I'm looking at the group that Wait, I'm looking at the group that Wait, I'm looking at the group that wants to launch this thing. We got 10 wants to launch this thing. We got 10 wants to launch this thing. We got 10 tithes in there." Yeah, like, uh that's tithes in there." Yeah, like, uh that's tithes in there." Yeah, like, uh that's a real That's a reality. So, yeah.

a real That's a reality. So, yeah. a real That's a reality. So, yeah. What do you say to that? What do you say to that? What do you say to that? So, when we started the community, So, when we started the community, So, when we started the community, the dream was to be a reproducing the dream was to be a reproducing the dream was to be a reproducing church. church. church. Okay. Okay. Okay. The truth was we were nine years for our The truth was we were nine years for our The truth was we were nine years for our kind of a church. kind of a church. kind of a church. That's a That's too long. That's a That's too long. That's a That's too long. What took What had to happen What took What had to happen What took What had to happen is our youth pastor came to me is our youth pastor came to me is our youth pastor came to me and said, "Hey." And again, it was on and said, "Hey." And again, it was on and said, "Hey." And again, it was on paper and that's the dream. We're a paper and that's the dream. We're a paper and that's the dream. We're a reproducing church, but we hadn't We'd reproducing church, but we hadn't We'd reproducing church, but we hadn't We'd you know, you know, you know, uh leaders and other things, but not uh leaders and other things, but not uh leaders and other things, but not church. Yeah, I mean, in those early church. Yeah, I mean, in those early church. Yeah, I mean, in those early years you're fighting for survival. years you're fighting for survival. years you're fighting for survival. Yeah, but that's also an excuse. Cuz how Yeah, but that's also an excuse. Cuz how Yeah, but that's also an excuse. Cuz how many of many of many of I mean, you don't have to send hundreds I mean, you don't have to send hundreds I mean, you don't have to send hundreds of thousands of dollars. You could just of thousands of dollars. You could just of thousands of dollars. You could just give one person permission. give one person permission. give one person permission. Okay, let's be real. So, Okay, let's be real. So, Okay, let's be real. So, he comes to me, he's like, "Hey, um he comes to me, he's like, "Hey, um he comes to me, he's like, "Hey, um I want to do what you did." I was like, I want to do what you did." I was like, I want to do what you did." I was like, "What did I do?" He said, "What did I do?" He said, "What did I do?" He said, "Plant a church." And my first reaction, "Plant a church." And my first reaction, "Plant a church." And my first reaction, like you talked, "Oh, crap." like you talked, "Oh, crap." like you talked, "Oh, crap." Cuz I like this guy a lot. In fact, he's Cuz I like this guy a lot. In fact, he's Cuz I like this guy a lot. In fact, he's doing a great job. Well, not only that, doing a great job. Well, not only that, doing a great job. Well, not only that, but my kids were getting going to be but my kids were getting going to be but my kids were getting going to be teenagers soon. And so I was like, "I teenagers soon. And so I was like, "I teenagers soon. And so I was like, "I want this kid this guy to be the youth want this kid this guy to be the youth want this kid this guy to be the youth pastor for my kids."

pastor for my kids." pastor for my kids." So, long story short, I'm like, "What So, long story short, I'm like, "What So, long story short, I'm like, "What are you thinking?" He's thinking like are you thinking?" He's thinking like are you thinking?" He's thinking like Denver, so we Denver, so we Denver, so we I tell him, "Hey, why don't you Why I tell him, "Hey, why don't you Why I tell him, "Hey, why don't you Why don't you go out there, check it out, don't you go out there, check it out, don't you go out there, check it out, and then come back and we'll talk." and then come back and we'll talk." and then come back and we'll talk." I'm thinking it's going to wear off. I'm thinking it's going to wear off. I'm thinking it's going to wear off. Right. Well, he comes back, big smile on Right. Well, he comes back, big smile on Right. Well, he comes back, big smile on his face. I'm like, "What's going on?" his face. I'm like, "What's going on?" his face. I'm like, "What's going on?" He's like, "Oh, man, it went awesome." He's like, "Oh, man, it went awesome." He's like, "Oh, man, it went awesome." I'm like, "How was it?" I'm like, "How was it?" I'm like, "How was it?" In like eight days he raised enough In like eight days he raised enough In like eight days he raised enough money to plant this church. And it it money to plant this church. And it it money to plant this church. And it it was a launch large model. So it was was a launch large model. So it was was a launch large model. So it was significant dollars. significant dollars. significant dollars. So it was clear God was in in on this. So it was clear God was in in on this. So it was clear God was in in on this. I got to the place where I'm okay, if I I got to the place where I'm okay, if I I got to the place where I'm okay, if I don't get behind this, I'm going to don't get behind this, I'm going to don't get behind this, I'm going to It's going to feel like I'm getting in It's going to feel like I'm getting in It's going to feel like I'm getting in God's way. God's way. God's way. So we got in front of all of our people So we got in front of all of our people So we got in front of all of our people and I said, "Hey." Told them the story, and I said, "Hey." Told them the story, and I said, "Hey." Told them the story, the God thing that happened. And I said, the God thing that happened. And I said, the God thing that happened. And I said, "If they're going to Colorado to plant a "If they're going to Colorado to plant a "If they're going to Colorado to plant a church, so we're in Chicago, some of you church, so we're in Chicago, some of you church, so we're in Chicago, some of you need to go with them." need to go with them." need to go with them." And we had 35 people And we had 35 people And we had 35 people who made decisions to leave Chicago, who made decisions to leave Chicago, who made decisions to leave Chicago, sold their homes, or transferred sold their homes, or transferred sold their homes, or transferred schools, moved there, helped plant that schools, moved there, helped plant that schools, moved there, helped plant that church. church. church. Now, here's the thing, back to your Now, here's the thing, back to your Now, here's the thing, back to your question.

question. question. In that moment I was like, "I'm losing In that moment I was like, "I'm losing In that moment I was like, "I'm losing the youth pastor." the youth pastor." the youth pastor." "How am I going to find the youth "How am I going to find the youth "How am I going to find the youth pastor? How am I going to be the pastor pastor? How am I going to be the pastor pastor? How am I going to be the pastor of my kids?" of my kids?" of my kids?" But what God was doing, and this is what But what God was doing, and this is what But what God was doing, and this is what I hope you'll hear in this. Okay, what I hope you'll hear in this. Okay, what I hope you'll hear in this. Okay, what God was doing, that was our very first God was doing, that was our very first God was doing, that was our very first church plant. church plant. church plant. And and again, I told you we like we got And and again, I told you we like we got And and again, I told you we like we got to work in 69 countries and help plant to work in 69 countries and help plant to work in 69 countries and help plant over 35,000 churches. What God was doing is he was birth with What God was doing is he was birth with movement. movement. movement. And what I was doing I was trying to And what I was doing I was trying to And what I was doing I was trying to hold onto the staff first. Does that hold onto the staff first. Does that hold onto the staff first. Does that make sense? make sense? make sense? And that's what's happening over and And that's what's happening over and And that's what's happening over and over again. I'm telling you you will over again. I'm telling you you will over again. I'm telling you you will find another youth pastor. find another youth pastor. find another youth pastor. And you just need to release and then And you just need to release and then And you just need to release and then give give them permission. There's a give give them permission. There's a give give them permission. There's a dream that God has for every person, and dream that God has for every person, and dream that God has for every person, and it's your job to help fulfill that it's your job to help fulfill that it's your job to help fulfill that dream. dream. dream. And not try to control. So when you're And not try to control. So when you're And not try to control. So when you're planting all of that, let's go to what a planting all of that, let's go to what a planting all of that, let's go to what a lot of pastors are most worried about. lot of pastors are most worried about. lot of pastors are most worried about. Yeah. We talked about the people aspect. Yeah. We talked about the people aspect. Yeah. We talked about the people aspect. Yeah. But a lot of them, well, you get Yeah. But a lot of them, well, you get Yeah. But a lot of them, well, you get them off my them off my them off my will be like, "And I'm worried will be like, "And I'm worried will be like, "And I'm worried financially. Like we're barely getting financially. Like we're barely getting financially. Like we're barely getting by right now. And you know, if you got by right now. And you know, if you got by right now. And you know, if you got 35 people going to Denver." Yeah. And 35 people going to Denver." Yeah. And 35 people going to Denver." Yeah. And even, you know, let's say two of your even, you know, let's say two of your even, you know, let's say two of your best givers Oh, yeah. are in that group best givers Oh, yeah. are in that group best givers Oh, yeah. are in that group and they go. Yeah.

and they go. Yeah. and they go. Yeah. What do you see? What What's your What do you see? What What's your What do you see? What What's your advice? advice? advice? Again, I think you kind of have to trust Again, I think you kind of have to trust Again, I think you kind of have to trust God. So, you're John Teecock? No, I God. So, you're John Teecock? No, I God. So, you're John Teecock? No, I don't There's other leaders. Great don't There's other leaders. Great don't There's other leaders. Great church in the Chicago suburbs. John had church in the Chicago suburbs. John had church in the Chicago suburbs. John had worked at Willow Creek Community worked at Willow Creek Community worked at Willow Creek Community Christian Church in Illinois. And we Christian Church in Illinois. And we Christian Church in Illinois. And we told him I'd give it over to Hey, you told him I'd give it over to Hey, you told him I'd give it over to Hey, you know what? know what? know what? Whoever you want to take with you, Whoever you want to take with you, Whoever you want to take with you, you know, take with you. And it turns you know, take with you. And it turns you know, take with you. And it turns out that um out that um out that um a guy who a guy who a guy who gave a seven-figure gift to help us gave a seven-figure gift to help us gave a seven-figure gift to help us build our building, decides he wants to build our building, decides he wants to build our building, decides he wants to go with them. go with them. go with them. Yeah, same reaction I had about Dave the Yeah, same reaction I had about Dave the Yeah, same reaction I had about Dave the youth pastor. It was like, "Oh." Dude, youth pastor. It was like, "Oh." Dude, youth pastor. It was like, "Oh." Dude, you're slaying it. No, I like I like the you're slaying it. No, I like I like the you're slaying it. No, I like I like the moment when I say, "Hey, take whoever moment when I say, "Hey, take whoever moment when I say, "Hey, take whoever you want." I know, and I you want." I know, and I you want." I know, and I That's how bad Great. That sounds That's how bad Great. That sounds That's how bad Great. That sounds awesome. But then it happens. And you awesome. But then it happens. And you awesome. But then it happens. And you know what? I mean, and they've done a know what? I mean, and they've done a know what? I mean, and they've done a great work. But God I I don't know. My great work. But God I I don't know. My great work. But God I I don't know. My experience is God's faithful. experience is God's faithful. experience is God's faithful. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I think he's trying to continually >> And I think he's trying to continually >> And I think he's trying to continually grow our faith in these things. We all grow our faith in these things. We all grow our faith in these things. We all know I know, but it's but it is so hard know I know, but it's but it is so hard know I know, but it's but it is so hard to do it, right? It's so hard to do it, to do it, right? It's so hard to do it, to do it, right? It's so hard to do it, to pry those hands open.

to pry those hands open. to pry those hands open. >> Yeah. And that's really the Yeah. times >> Yeah. And that's really the Yeah. times >> Yeah. And that's really the Yeah. times to drink communities and ongoingly we to drink communities and ongoingly we to drink communities and ongoingly we continue. Where you have financial type, continue. Where you have financial type, continue. Where you have financial type, but that's also but that's also but that's also I I would also say those are some of the I I would also say those are some of the I I would also say those are some of the times where God's I feel like God's times where God's I feel like God's times where God's I feel like God's growing me the most, too. So we have a growing me the most, too. So we have a growing me the most, too. So we have a five minutes left and we'll do this your five minutes left and we'll do this your five minutes left and we'll do this your choice. choice. choice. We can talk about your latest move. We can talk about your latest move. We can talk about your latest move. Or um stepping out of the lead pastor Or um stepping out of the lead pastor Or um stepping out of the lead pastor role. Or role. Or role. Or we could talk about us having a we could talk about us having a we could talk about us having a breakfast with Rodge on your leadership breakfast with Rodge on your leadership breakfast with Rodge on your leadership team this morning. Okay. We were talking team this morning. Okay. We were talking team this morning. Okay. We were talking about that stat a couple years ago. This about that stat a couple years ago. This about that stat a couple years ago. This is our chief of staff. Chief of staff. is our chief of staff. Chief of staff. is our chief of staff. Chief of staff. Great. Great. Great. And we were talking about, you know, And we were talking about, you know, And we were talking about, you know, declining churches, plateaued churches, declining churches, plateaued churches, declining churches, plateaued churches, growing churches, reproducing churches, growing churches, reproducing churches, growing churches, reproducing churches, and multiplying churches. And so we and multiplying churches. And so we and multiplying churches. And so we could go into those five categories or could go into those five categories or could go into those five categories or your trends. That's just the five your trends. That's just the five your trends. That's just the five levels. Oh, we got to You got to go five levels. Oh, we got to You got to go five levels. Oh, we got to You got to go five levels. Oh, you got to go five levels. levels. Oh, you got to go five levels. levels. Oh, you got to go five levels. Cuz this is big back in the talks the Cuz this is big back in the talks the Cuz this is big back in the talks the session that I did. Yeah, yeah, exactly. session that I did. Yeah, yeah, exactly. session that I did. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Cuz it seems that it's going It's going Cuz it seems that it's going It's going Cuz it seems that it's going It's going Ted Kanaris is crushing it. Excellent Ted Kanaris is crushing it. Excellent Ted Kanaris is crushing it. Excellent that out there. But again, that's a that out there. But again, that's a that out there. But again, that's a secure leader who can say that.

secure leader who can say that. secure leader who can say that. A lot of the times It's true, though. A lot of the times It's true, though. A lot of the times It's true, though. Guess what? We're the biggest problem Guess what? We're the biggest problem Guess what? We're the biggest problem Yeah. to our successors cuz we go in and Yeah. to our successors cuz we go in and Yeah. to our successors cuz we go in and we start meddling or criticizing them we start meddling or criticizing them we start meddling or criticizing them and say, "Well, he's doing a good job." and say, "Well, he's doing a good job." and say, "Well, he's doing a good job." But if you have the mindset like Bob But if you have the mindset like Bob But if you have the mindset like Bob taught me of my fruit growing on other taught me of my fruit growing on other taught me of my fruit growing on other people's trees, people's trees, people's trees, like his say If he's successful, makes like his say If he's successful, makes like his say If he's successful, makes me successful. He has a shift in how you me successful. He has a shift in how you me successful. He has a shift in how you think. All right, that's all you need to think. All right, that's all you need to think. All right, that's all you need to know about C set. So now onto the the know about C set. So now onto the the know about C set. So now onto the the five levels. I was on the C search. So, five levels. I was on the C search. So, five levels. I was on the C search. So, you've got a lot of There's 350,000 you've got a lot of There's 350,000 you've got a lot of There's 350,000 churches, give or take a few, in America churches, give or take a few, in America churches, give or take a few, in America right now. You got that right. A lot of right now. You got that right. A lot of right now. You got that right. A lot of them are dying. A lot of them are them are dying. A lot of them are them are dying. A lot of them are plateaued. plateaued. plateaued. >> Yeah. Do you want to break down the >> Yeah. Do you want to break down the >> Yeah. Do you want to break down the percentage a little bit? Rodge did a percentage a little bit? Rodge did a percentage a little bit? Rodge did a breakfast and I found it fascinating. We breakfast and I found it fascinating. We breakfast and I found it fascinating. We ended up with the same math with ended up with the same math with ended up with the same math with different process. different process. different process. >> Yeah. So, I mean, what do you have? What >> Yeah. So, I mean, what do you have? What >> Yeah. So, I mean, what do you have? What So you have level one, which are So you have level one, which are So you have level one, which are declining. Yeah. Level two, that are declining. Yeah. Level two, that are declining. Yeah. Level two, that are plateauing. Level three, that are plateauing. Level three, that are plateauing. Level three, that are growing. growing. growing. And then level four, reproducing. Those And then level four, reproducing. Those And then level four, reproducing. Those are churches that have started a new are churches that have started a new are churches that have started a new church in the last three years. church in the last three years. church in the last three years. >> Is that your church or is that your >> Is that your church or is that your >> Is that your church or is that your campus? They could be either one either campus? They could be either one either campus? They could be either one either one. And then multiply, okay, is those one. And then multiply, okay, is those one. And then multiply, okay, is those that are up to four generations beyond.

that are up to four generations beyond. that are up to four generations beyond. Okay. Really movement making kind of Okay. Really movement making kind of Okay. Really movement making kind of church. So they're like their churches church. So they're like their churches church. So they're like their churches are planting churches or planting are planting churches or planting are planting churches or planting churches. Like Acts 1:8. churches. Like Acts 1:8. churches. Like Acts 1:8. Judea, Samaria, the earth. Second Judea, Samaria, the earth. Second Judea, Samaria, the earth. Second Timothy 2:2, four generations. And what Timothy 2:2, four generations. And what Timothy 2:2, four generations. And what percentage are multiplying? Great percentage are multiplying? Great percentage are multiplying? Great question. Can we back up just a little question. Can we back up just a little question. Can we back up just a little bit? Let's go. So let's just take those bit? Let's go. So let's just take those bit? Let's go. So let's just take those two categories. Uh-huh. Reproducing and two categories. Uh-huh. Reproducing and two categories. Uh-huh. Reproducing and multiplying. Level four and level five. multiplying. Level four and level five. multiplying. Level four and level five. Um 10 years ago it was at 4%. Um 10 years ago it was at 4%. Um 10 years ago it was at 4%. Then more recently it's now at 7%. Oh, Then more recently it's now at 7%. Oh, Then more recently it's now at 7%. Oh, wow. And when I say recently, that's wow. And when I say recently, that's wow. And when I say recently, that's probably whatever, two years ago data. probably whatever, two years ago data. probably whatever, two years ago data. So we're at 7%. So, So we're at 7%. So, So we're at 7%. So, um it kind of stayed the same during um it kind of stayed the same during um it kind of stayed the same during COVID. COVID. COVID. And this is where what Exponential were And this is where what Exponential were And this is where what Exponential were all about. This is what we wake up all about. This is what we wake up all about. This is what we wake up thinking about every day. And we would thinking about every day. And we would thinking about every day. And we would love to get everybody else on board with love to get everybody else on board with love to get everybody else on board with this. this. this. As we call it the 16% mission. As we call it the 16% mission. As we call it the 16% mission. We want to see 16% of all churches We want to see 16% of all churches We want to see 16% of all churches become level four, level five, become level four, level five, become level four, level five, reproducer and multiplier. reproducer and multiplier. reproducer and multiplier. What? What? What? I was going to say that's an odd number. I was going to say that's an odd number. I was going to say that's an odd number. Okay, here's what. It's not an odd Okay, here's what. It's not an odd Okay, here's what. It's not an odd number in this reason. Everett Rogers number in this reason. Everett Rogers number in this reason. Everett Rogers and the diffusion of innovation, it's and the diffusion of innovation, it's and the diffusion of innovation, it's going to take you back to you now. You going to take you back to you now. You going to take you back to you now. You remember that? The the diffusion of remember that? The the diffusion of remember that? The the diffusion of innovation curves, 16% is the tipping innovation curves, 16% is the tipping innovation curves, 16% is the tipping point. 16% is the tipping point for point. 16% is the tipping point for point. 16% is the tipping point for changing anything. If you get I can changing anything. If you get I can changing anything. If you get I can remember actually early exponential remember actually early exponential remember actually early exponential conference sitting with Tim Keller cuz conference sitting with Tim Keller cuz conference sitting with Tim Keller cuz he had me come speak and Tim would talk he had me come speak and Tim would talk he had me come speak and Tim would talk about if I could get a certain about if I could get a certain about if I could get a certain percentage of New York to be believers, percentage of New York to be believers, percentage of New York to be believers, I think that could be a I have that I think that could be a I have that I think that could be a I have that conversation with him, too. There you conversation with him, too. There you conversation with him, too. There you go. Tipping point, you're changing all go. Tipping point, you're changing all go. Tipping point, you're changing all New York City. Is that just He was New York City. Is that just He was New York City. Is that just He was right. 1% of New York attended an

right. 1% of New York attended an right. 1% of New York attended an evangelical church when he got there in evangelical church when he got there in evangelical church when he got there in '89. And and and he was pushing that. '89. And and and he was pushing that. '89. And and and he was pushing that. And so that's what we're pushing across And so that's what we're pushing across And so that's what we're pushing across the country. the country. the country. Okay, so we think if we get Okay, so we think if we get Okay, so we think if we get 16% or more to become reproducer 16% or more to become reproducer 16% or more to become reproducer or multiplying churches, that can change or multiplying churches, that can change or multiplying churches, that can change the spiritual landscape of the United the spiritual landscape of the United the spiritual landscape of the United States. States. States. The reason we believe that is twofold. The reason we believe that is twofold. The reason we believe that is twofold. One is churches, okay, brand new One is churches, okay, brand new One is churches, okay, brand new churches are the greatest source of churches are the greatest source of churches are the greatest source of spiritual capital that we have. And by spiritual capital that we have. And by spiritual capital that we have. And by that I mean they're the best that I mean they're the best that I mean they're the best evangelistic tool we have. Yeah. Keller evangelistic tool we have. Yeah. Keller evangelistic tool we have. Yeah. Keller says that says that says that It's it's inarguable. It's that you It's it's inarguable. It's that you It's it's inarguable. It's that you can't argue against. Every everybody can't argue against. Every everybody can't argue against. Every everybody know Everyone knows this is true. And know Everyone knows this is true. And know Everyone knows this is true. And that's why we need to get after it. So that's why we need to get after it. So that's why we need to get after it. So if you're serious about people finding, if you're serious about people finding, if you're serious about people finding, following Jesus, brand new churches are following Jesus, brand new churches are following Jesus, brand new churches are the best way. But here's the other thing the best way. But here's the other thing the best way. But here's the other thing I think doesn't get played enough. I think doesn't get played enough. I think doesn't get played enough. Is that also I think the best source of Is that also I think the best source of Is that also I think the best source of social capital we have in the United social capital we have in the United social capital we have in the United States. States. States. What do you mean by that? By so social What do you mean by that? By so social What do you mean by that? By so social capital, a lot of people who are capital, a lot of people who are capital, a lot of people who are generous, people who are willing to generous, people who are willing to generous, people who are willing to volunteer of for the things that create volunteer of for the things that create volunteer of for the things that create human flourishing. human flourishing. human flourishing. You cuz you did do so much stuff with You cuz you did do so much stuff with You cuz you did do so much stuff with blue. I mean, yeah. You I'm going to be blue. I mean, yeah. You I'm going to be blue. I mean, yeah. You I'm going to be preaching to the choir here, but allow preaching to the choir here, but allow preaching to the choir here, but allow me.

me. me. Uh Harvard's law in the two mill study Uh Harvard's law in the two mill study Uh Harvard's law in the two mill study came away with all these different came away with all these different came away with all these different indicators of human flourishing. Then indicators of human flourishing. Then indicators of human flourishing. Then the one that stood out above all the the one that stood out above all the the one that stood out above all the others were those people who are engaged others were those people who are engaged others were those people who are engaged with a faith community. If you're with a faith community. If you're with a faith community. If you're engaged with a faith community, that is engaged with a faith community, that is engaged with a faith community, that is the key thing that leads to human the key thing that leads to human the key thing that leads to human flourishing. flourishing. flourishing. And if that's the case, then if we start And if that's the case, then if we start And if that's the case, then if we start more churches more churches more churches and again, we got to have healthy Yeah. and again, we got to have healthy Yeah. and again, we got to have healthy Yeah. We I don't know what talked about that. You our live stream has limits. You our live stream has limits. >> Right. Yeah, we have two minutes. So >> Right. Yeah, we have two minutes. So >> Right. Yeah, we have two minutes. So uh if we start more churches, those uh if we start more churches, those uh if we start more churches, those churches create more opportunities for churches create more opportunities for churches create more opportunities for people to be engaged with faith people to be engaged with faith people to be engaged with faith communities, and so not only that, if communities, and so not only that, if communities, and so not only that, if the humans flourish, but then whole the humans flourish, but then whole the humans flourish, but then whole communities flourish. Yeah. It's it's I communities flourish. Yeah. It's it's I communities flourish. Yeah. It's it's I mean, tricky that's a halo effect. mean, tricky that's a halo effect. mean, tricky that's a halo effect. Churches Well, churches are just great Churches Well, churches are just great Churches Well, churches are just great organizations for helping start brand organizations for helping start brand organizations for helping start brand new things that mobilize volunteers that new things that mobilize volunteers that new things that mobilize volunteers that are great for the community. And so if are great for the community. And so if are great for the community. And so if we can get that 16% more spiritual we can get that 16% more spiritual we can get that 16% more spiritual capital, more social capital, I think it capital, more social capital, I think it capital, more social capital, I think it transforms what's happening in the transforms what's happening in the transforms what's happening in the United States. United States. United States. Well, this has been a helpful Well, this has been a helpful Well, this has been a helpful conversation and you know what? Getting conversation and you know what? Getting conversation and you know what? Getting at those at those at those non-godly forces of fear and control and non-godly forces of fear and control and non-godly forces of fear and control and worry I think is such a gift. Dave, the worry I think is such a gift. Dave, the worry I think is such a gift. Dave, the new book is called Multiplier.

new book is called Multiplier. new book is called Multiplier. It's out right now. It's out right It It's out right now. It's out right It It's out right now. It's out right It was launched today. Today's the launch was launched today. Today's the launch was launched today. Today's the launch day. That we recorded this on. Yeah. So day. That we recorded this on. Yeah. So day. That we recorded this on. Yeah. So if you're watching the live stream, it's if you're watching the live stream, it's if you're watching the live stream, it's available anywhere you get books. Is available anywhere you get books. Is available anywhere you get books. Is there there a preferred site you want there there a preferred site you want there there a preferred site you want people to buy from or particular offer? people to buy from or particular offer? people to buy from or particular offer? And if you're watching on my Leadership And if you're watching on my Leadership And if you're watching on my Leadership Podcast or listening, you can get it Podcast or listening, you can get it Podcast or listening, you can get it anywhere you buy books. Dave, I'm so anywhere you buy books. Dave, I'm so anywhere you buy books. Dave, I'm so encouraged. You know, what I love is, encouraged. You know, what I love is, encouraged. You know, what I love is, you know, we're at some sort of stage of you know, we're at some sort of stage of you know, we're at some sort of stage of life. There's so much gas in your tank. life. There's so much gas in your tank. life. There's so much gas in your tank. There's so much joy in your eyes. There's so much joy in your eyes. There's so much joy in your eyes. There's so much intensity to your There's so much intensity to your There's so much intensity to your mission. mission. mission. And that was a goal of mine when I And that was a goal of mine when I And that was a goal of mine when I started out as a young leader. And to started out as a young leader. And to started out as a young leader. And to see the changing face of church planting see the changing face of church planting see the changing face of church planting and what we get to do in this generation and what we get to do in this generation and what we get to do in this generation and how we get to build into that super and how we get to build into that super and how we get to build into that super encouraging. So thank you so much. encouraging. So thank you so much. encouraging. So thank you so much. >> John, thank you for being here. And >> John, thank you for being here. And >> John, thank you for being here. And thank you for this opportunity. Well, thank you for this opportunity. Well, thank you for this opportunity. Well, make sure you get Dave's new book make sure you get Dave's new book make sure you get Dave's new book Multipliers. It's available everywhere. Multipliers. It's available everywhere. Multipliers. It's available everywhere. We also got show notes for you. The We also got show notes for you. The We also got show notes for you. The easiest place to find them is in my Art easiest place to find them is in my Art easiest place to find them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can join over of Leadership Academy. You can join over of Leadership Academy. You can join over 20,000 leaders who have gathered there 20,000 leaders who have gathered there 20,000 leaders who have gathered there over the last year. It's free to sign over the last year. It's free to sign over the last year. It's free to sign up. Just go to the art of up. Just go to the art of up. Just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com and we'll get you in there today. We and we'll get you in there today. We and we'll get you in there today. We have some webinars. We do a lot of have some webinars. We do a lot of have some webinars. We do a lot of conversations. And you'll find some conversations. And you'll find some conversations. And you'll find some really good people to talk with really good people to talk with really good people to talk with including a lot of church planters and including a lot of church planters and including a lot of church planters and people who are into multiplying their people who are into multiplying their people who are into multiplying their impact by planting new churches. So impact by planting new churches. So impact by planting new churches. So you're going to find that inside the you're going to find that inside the you're going to find that inside the academy. Also, if you haven't yet hit academy. Also, if you haven't yet hit academy. Also, if you haven't yet hit follow or subscribe, do so cuz you won't follow or subscribe, do so cuz you won't follow or subscribe, do so cuz you won't get some great interviews. You won't get some great interviews. You won't get some great interviews. You won't miss conversations I'm going to have miss conversations I'm going to have miss conversations I'm going to have with Rich Villodas. He's coming up on with Rich Villodas. He's coming up on with Rich Villodas. He's coming up on the podcast. I interviewed him here at the podcast. I interviewed him here at the podcast. I interviewed him here at Exponential. So you're not going to want

Exponential. So you're not going to want Exponential. So you're not going to want to miss want to miss that. I've also got to miss want to miss that. I've also got to miss want to miss that. I've also got Eric Ries from The Lean Startup and we Eric Ries from The Lean Startup and we Eric Ries from The Lean Startup and we have a lot of other leaders coming up on have a lot of other leaders coming up on have a lot of other leaders coming up on the podcast. So you won't miss that. the podcast. So you won't miss that. the podcast. So you won't miss that. Thank you so much for watching. Hey, I Thank you so much for watching. Hey, I Thank you so much for watching. Hey, I hope you make it out on the conference hope you make it out on the conference hope you make it out on the conference circuit and when you do, make sure you circuit and when you do, make sure you circuit and when you do, make sure you drop by and say hello before or after I drop by and say hello before or after I drop by and say hello before or after I speak or I'm doing one of these things speak or I'm doing one of these things speak or I'm doing one of these things backstage. I'd love to meet listeners. backstage. I'd love to meet listeners. backstage. I'd love to meet listeners. And uh hopefully wherever this episode And uh hopefully wherever this episode And uh hopefully wherever this episode finds you, that you had a great day and finds you, that you had a great day and finds you, that you had a great day and this made it a little bit better. I hope this made it a little bit better. I hope this made it a little bit better. I hope our conversation today helped you our conversation today helped you our conversation today helped you identify and break a growth barrier that identify and break a growth barrier that identify and break a growth barrier that you're facing.