The Problem of Mini-Celebrity Pastors with Les McKeown

Well, we'll get to today's regularly Well, we'll get to today's regularly scheduled podcast episode in just a scheduled podcast episode in just a scheduled podcast episode in just a moment, but I am so glad to be here in moment, but I am so glad to be here in moment, but I am so glad to be here in person for the first time ever. person for the first time ever. person for the first time ever. We're doing uh state of the church. It's We're doing uh state of the church. It's We're doing uh state of the church. It's great to be here. great to be here. great to be here. >> Live and in person in Nashville. It's >> Live and in person in Nashville. It's >> Live and in person in Nashville. It's great It's great to be here, Carey. It's great It's great to be here, Carey. It's great It's great to be here, Carey. It's great to be with you. great to be with you. great to be with you. >> Thanks for having me. We're tracking uh >> Thanks for having me. We're tracking uh >> Thanks for having me. We're tracking uh you're tracking. We is very generous. you're tracking. We is very generous. you're tracking. We is very generous. You [laughter] You were tracking. It's You [laughter] You were tracking. It's You [laughter] You were tracking. It's the royal we. The royal we. You're the royal we. The royal we. You're the royal we. The royal we. You're tracking some data now. tracking some data now. tracking some data now. Uh we're all talking about revival, Uh we're all talking about revival, Uh we're all talking about revival, right? There's some really hopeful right? There's some really hopeful right? There's some really hopeful signs. signs. signs. But there's also some other things going But there's also some other things going But there's also some other things going on at the same time. It's not a complete on at the same time. It's not a complete on at the same time. It's not a complete positive story. What's going on and what positive story. What's going on and what positive story. What's going on and what are you learning? Yeah, I think uh just are you learning? Yeah, I think uh just are you learning? Yeah, I think uh just to make sure we really emphasize that to make sure we really emphasize that to make sure we really emphasize that we're seeing so many interesting pieces we're seeing so many interesting pieces we're seeing so many interesting pieces of data about renewal, especially among of data about renewal, especially among of data about renewal, especially among young people, yeah, Gen Z and young people, yeah, Gen Z and young people, yeah, Gen Z and millennials. And at the same time, so millennials. And at the same time, so millennials. And at the same time, so that is very true, at least according to that is very true, at least according to that is very true, at least according to other data we've been collecting in the other data we've been collecting in the other data we've been collecting in the last couple of years, and especially in last couple of years, and especially in last couple of years, and especially in uh 2025, we'll have more of that coming uh 2025, we'll have more of that coming uh 2025, we'll have more of that coming into 2026. into 2026. into 2026. But um we're also tapping the brakes on But um we're also tapping the brakes on But um we're also tapping the brakes on this revival is breaking out. So we want this revival is breaking out. So we want this revival is breaking out. So we want to just kind of cover a couple key to just kind of cover a couple key to just kind of cover a couple key stats.

stats. stats. Um when you look at the percent of all Um when you look at the percent of all Um when you look at the percent of all US adults who identify as Christian from US adults who identify as Christian from US adults who identify as Christian from uh 2000 to 2025, uh 2000 to 2025, uh 2000 to 2025, uh that has gone from 83% of all uh that has gone from 83% of all uh that has gone from 83% of all Americans to 71% so we are minus 12 in Americans to 71% so we are minus 12 in Americans to 71% so we are minus 12 in Christian identity over 25 years. Wow. Christian identity over 25 years. Wow. Christian identity over 25 years. Wow. Um uh the percent of Christians who Um uh the percent of Christians who Um uh the percent of Christians who attend church monthly has gone from 66% attend church monthly has gone from 66% attend church monthly has gone from 66% to 59%. That's minus seven. to 59%. That's minus seven. to 59%. That's minus seven. So a slight softening. Um there is also So a slight softening. Um there is also So a slight softening. Um there is also a a a a surprising softening, although not as a surprising softening, although not as a surprising softening, although not as dramatic, of the percent of Christians dramatic, of the percent of Christians dramatic, of the percent of Christians that agree strongly that they have a that agree strongly that they have a that agree strongly that they have a responsibility to share their faith from responsibility to share their faith from responsibility to share their faith from uh 35% to 31% so minus four, Mhm. which uh 35% to 31% so minus four, Mhm. which uh 35% to 31% so minus four, Mhm. which is important to note because in a moment is important to note because in a moment is important to note because in a moment when people are open to Jesus, we need when people are open to Jesus, we need when people are open to Jesus, we need to reinstall confidence in the gospel to reinstall confidence in the gospel to reinstall confidence in the gospel and in telling our story because people and in telling our story because people and in telling our story because people are especially open right now. They are especially open right now. They are especially open right now. They should be telling their story anytime, should be telling their story anytime, should be telling their story anytime, uh but especially now. uh but especially now. uh but especially now. >> Especially now. And the last one is a a >> Especially now. And the last one is a a >> Especially now. And the last one is a a really a surprising one, but the percent really a surprising one, but the percent really a surprising one, but the percent of Christians that agree strongly that of Christians that agree strongly that of Christians that agree strongly that their religious faith is very important their religious faith is very important their religious faith is very important in their life has gone from 74% to 54% in their life has gone from 74% to 54% in their life has gone from 74% to 54% in 25 years, 20 minus 20. 20 point drop.

in 25 years, 20 minus 20. 20 point drop. in 25 years, 20 minus 20. 20 point drop. So we're just wanting to talk about the So we're just wanting to talk about the So we're just wanting to talk about the fact that even as Barna and uh some of fact that even as Barna and uh some of fact that even as Barna and uh some of our colleagues are talking about a our colleagues are talking about a our colleagues are talking about a renewal and in some pockets there seems renewal and in some pockets there seems renewal and in some pockets there seems to be a kind of revival happening to be a kind of revival happening to be a kind of revival happening college campuses, a lot of campus college campuses, a lot of campus college campuses, a lot of campus ministries are talking to us about uh ministries are talking to us about uh ministries are talking to us about uh what they're seeing among Gen Z and what they're seeing among Gen Z and what they're seeing among Gen Z and young people. When you look at the broad young people. When you look at the broad young people. When you look at the broad spectrum of Christianity in America, and spectrum of Christianity in America, and spectrum of Christianity in America, and especially the established, this is all especially the established, this is all especially the established, this is all generations, established practicing generations, established practicing generations, established practicing Christians and self-identified Christians and self-identified Christians and self-identified Christians, there's been a real uh Christians, there's been a real uh Christians, there's been a real uh softening over 25 years. So we just softening over 25 years. So we just softening over 25 years. So we just wanted to make sure to talk accurately wanted to make sure to talk accurately wanted to make sure to talk accurately and uh with the right kind of nuance and uh with the right kind of nuance and uh with the right kind of nuance about what we're seeing in the data. about what we're seeing in the data. about what we're seeing in the data. No, that's good to know because it and No, that's good to know because it and No, that's good to know because it and it's one of those things where you're it's one of those things where you're it's one of those things where you're holding two truths in tension. holding two truths in tension. holding two truths in tension. >> Correct. There are genuine seeds of >> Correct. There are genuine seeds of >> Correct. There are genuine seeds of renewal and excitement and reversing renewal and excitement and reversing renewal and excitement and reversing data in the church. And at the same data in the church. And at the same data in the church. And at the same time, the overall time, the overall time, the overall trends trends trends cannot be encouraging as well. There's a cannot be encouraging as well. There's a cannot be encouraging as well. There's a lot of work left to be done. There is. lot of work left to be done. There is. lot of work left to be done. There is. One of the ways I've been thinking about One of the ways I've been thinking about One of the ways I've been thinking about it is it's almost as though with younger it is it's almost as though with younger it is it's almost as though with younger generations, generations, generations, um they're they're going back to a place um they're they're going back to a place um they're they're going back to a place that might have been 15 or 25 or even 30 that might have been 15 or 25 or even 30 that might have been 15 or 25 or even 30 years ago in terms of their religious years ago in terms of their religious years ago in terms of their religious They're almost like it's a reset moment.

They're almost like it's a reset moment. They're almost like it's a reset moment. >> Sure. Um but it's not this this sort of >> Sure. Um but it's not this this sort of >> Sure. Um but it's not this this sort of like so socially defining renewal at like so socially defining renewal at like so socially defining renewal at this point. Now, what is unique about this point. Now, what is unique about this point. Now, what is unique about this this this is that with older adults, there is a is that with older adults, there is a is that with older adults, there is a real sense that which as usually it's real sense that which as usually it's real sense that which as usually it's older adults who get more religious. older adults who get more religious. older adults who get more religious. What we're seeing now that is unique is What we're seeing now that is unique is What we're seeing now that is unique is younger adults are more oriented to the younger adults are more oriented to the younger adults are more oriented to the Bible, more oriented to Jesus, more Bible, more oriented to Jesus, more Bible, more oriented to Jesus, more oriented to church than they were a oriented to church than they were a oriented to church than they were a generation ago. So we hope that those generation ago. So we hope that those generation ago. So we hope that those trends might continue. But again, the trends might continue. But again, the trends might continue. But again, the main story here is just tapping the main story here is just tapping the main story here is just tapping the brakes on widespread uh renewal, brakes on widespread uh renewal, brakes on widespread uh renewal, widespread revival. Um there's still widespread revival. Um there's still widespread revival. Um there's still some ways in which Christianity in some ways in which Christianity in some ways in which Christianity in America is is definitely softening. So America is is definitely softening. So America is is definitely softening. So preachers, still a lot of mission left. preachers, still a lot of mission left. preachers, still a lot of mission left. Still a lot of people left to reach. Still a lot of people left to reach. Still a lot of people left to reach. >> You're not done yet. Not done yet. This >> You're not done yet. Not done yet. This >> You're not done yet. Not done yet. This is super helpful, and that's why I love is super helpful, and that's why I love is super helpful, and that's why I love the data. the data. the data. Uh it's such a gift to the church, the Uh it's such a gift to the church, the Uh it's such a gift to the church, the ministry that you bring. And I've really ministry that you bring. And I've really ministry that you bring. And I've really enjoyed these segments as well. So thank enjoyed these segments as well. So thank enjoyed these segments as well. So thank you so much, David. So what you can do you so much, David. So what you can do you so much, David. So what you can do if you want to learn more is go to if you want to learn more is go to if you want to learn more is go to stateofthelchurch.com/carey. stateofthelchurch.com/carey. stateofthelchurch.com/carey. You can see all the data yourself. You You can see all the data yourself. You You can see all the data yourself. You can sift through the positive and the can sift through the positive and the can sift through the positive and the tap the brakes data. And uh now to our tap the brakes data. And uh now to our tap the brakes data. And uh now to our regularly scheduled episode.

regularly scheduled episode. regularly scheduled episode. >> I see a lot, particularly in um tech >> I see a lot, particularly in um tech >> I see a lot, particularly in um tech and fintech. and fintech. and fintech. Um Um Um where it becomes really amplified in the where it becomes really amplified in the where it becomes really amplified in the church church church is when you bring God into it, which is is when you bring God into it, which is is when you bring God into it, which is hard to do. Hard not to do [laughter] hard to do. Hard not to do [laughter] hard to do. Hard not to do [laughter] when you're in the church, right? I'm when you're in the church, right? I'm when you're in the church, right? I'm glad you went there, right? glad you went there, right? glad you went there, right? Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. >> when you have the hard-driving founder >> when you have the hard-driving founder >> when you have the hard-driving founder who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy Spirit told me." Welcome to the Carey Spirit told me." Welcome to the Carey Spirit told me." Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey here, and I hope our time together today here, and I hope our time together today here, and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, we are sitting down with Les Well, we are sitting down with Les Well, we are sitting down with Les [music] McKeown. Les is one of the most [music] McKeown. Les is one of the most [music] McKeown. Les is one of the most popular guests we've had on the podcast. popular guests we've had on the podcast. popular guests we've had on the podcast. We've had him on a number of different We've had him on a number of different We've had him on a number of different episodes. And I ran into him at the episodes. And I ran into him at the episodes. And I ran into him at the Global Leadership Summit [music] in Global Leadership Summit [music] in Global Leadership Summit [music] in August, and we were chatting and he August, and we were chatting and he August, and we were chatting and he said, "You know, next time we talk, we said, "You know, next time we talk, we said, "You know, next time we talk, we should talk about the problem of mini should talk about the problem of mini should talk about the problem of mini celebrity pastors." celebrity pastors." celebrity pastors." >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> That's exactly what we are going to do. >> That's exactly what we are going to do. >> That's exactly what we are going to do. Les is the founder and the CEO of Les is the founder and the CEO of Les is the founder and the CEO of Predictable Success. [music] Predictable Success. [music] Predictable Success. [music] He is a consultant and thought leader on He is a consultant and thought leader on He is a consultant and thought leader on organizational and business growth. And organizational and business growth. And organizational and business growth. And you know, it's so cool talking to past you know, it's so cool talking to past you know, it's so cool talking to past [music] podcast alumni like Les. When he [music] podcast alumni like Les. When he [music] podcast alumni like Les. When he first appeared on this podcast, he was first appeared on this podcast, he was first appeared on this podcast, he was doing almost all business work. And now doing almost all business work. And now doing almost all business work. And now he spends a lot [music] of time with the he spends a lot [music] of time with the he spends a lot [music] of time with the church, and that's thanks to you. I love church, and that's thanks to you. I love church, and that's thanks to you. I love you as an audience, you guys. You take you as an audience, you guys. You take you as an audience, you guys. You take action, man. And this is the best part action, man. And this is the best part action, man. And this is the best part about doing this is when we bring you about doing this is when we bring you about doing this is when we bring you guests, you act. So welcome to all of guests, you act. So welcome to all of guests, you act. So welcome to all of you who are brand new. Welcome to those you who are brand new. Welcome to those you who are brand new. Welcome to those of you who might have just started of you who might have just started of you who might have just started following us. You know, there's a whole following us. You know, there's a whole following us. You know, there's a whole new generation of church leaders who are new generation of church leaders who are new generation of church leaders who are uh well, finding the podcast and jumping uh well, finding the podcast and jumping uh well, finding the podcast and jumping on, and I just want to say welcome to on, and I just want to say welcome to on, and I just want to say welcome to you. One of the kindest things you could

you. One of the kindest things you could you. One of the kindest things you could do is maybe to share this episode with do is maybe to share this episode with do is maybe to share this episode with someone else, to subscribe, follow, someone else, to subscribe, follow, someone else, to subscribe, follow, leave a comment. And I'll tell you a leave a comment. And I'll tell you a leave a comment. And I'll tell you a little bit more after my conversation little bit more after my conversation little bit more after my conversation with Les McKeown. Well, Les, welcome with Les McKeown. Well, Les, welcome with Les McKeown. Well, Les, welcome back. I'm just so glad to have you. I back. I'm just so glad to have you. I back. I'm just so glad to have you. I was telling you, you're like a fan was telling you, you're like a fan was telling you, you're like a fan favorite, you're a personal favorite of favorite, you're a personal favorite of favorite, you're a personal favorite of mine. I don't know if this is number mine. I don't know if this is number mine. I don't know if this is number five or six for you, but welcome back to five or six for you, but welcome back to five or six for you, but welcome back to the show. the show. the show. >> I don't know either, but it is either >> I don't know either, but it is either >> I don't know either, but it is either five or six, and it's an absolute five or six, and it's an absolute five or six, and it's an absolute pleasure. It's something that I look pleasure. It's something that I look pleasure. It's something that I look forward to enormously, and there isn't I forward to enormously, and there isn't I forward to enormously, and there isn't I mean I'm going to say say something that mean I'm going to say say something that mean I'm going to say say something that sounds like hyperbole, and of course you sounds like hyperbole, and of course you sounds like hyperbole, and of course you would say that, but there's not a word would say that, but there's not a word would say that, but there's not a word of hyperbole in this. There isn't a week of hyperbole in this. There isn't a week of hyperbole in this. There isn't a week that goes by that somebody doesn't say, that goes by that somebody doesn't say, that goes by that somebody doesn't say, "Oh, I got to know about you through "Oh, I got to know about you through "Oh, I got to know about you through Carey's podcast." Not a week. Carey's podcast." Not a week. Carey's podcast." Not a week. That makes me so happy, you know, and That makes me so happy, you know, and That makes me so happy, you know, and you are among many alumni on the podcast you are among many alumni on the podcast you are among many alumni on the podcast who will tell me that. And that's a who will tell me that. And that's a who will tell me that. And that's a shout-out to to all of you leaders who shout-out to to all of you leaders who shout-out to to all of you leaders who are listening. Um thank you so much. are listening. Um thank you so much. are listening. Um thank you so much. Thank you so much for taking this Thank you so much for taking this Thank you so much for taking this seriously. I mean, we've been doing it seriously. I mean, we've been doing it seriously. I mean, we've been doing it for 11 years, but I still remember for 11 years, but I still remember for 11 years, but I still remember reading Predictable Success. Casey reading Predictable Success. Casey reading Predictable Success. Casey Graham, our mutual friend, put me on to Graham, our mutual friend, put me on to Graham, our mutual friend, put me on to it over 10 years ago. I think I read it it over 10 years ago. I think I read it it over 10 years ago. I think I read it on a plane, and I'm like, my whole life.

on a plane, and I'm like, my whole life. on a plane, and I'm like, my whole life. And I think I reached out to you on And I think I reached out to you on And I think I reached out to you on Twitter back in the day. That's right. Twitter back in the day. That's right. Twitter back in the day. That's right. Back when it was fun. And you answered, Back when it was fun. And you answered, Back when it was fun. And you answered, and I'm like, "Can we talk?" And well, and I'm like, "Can we talk?" And well, and I'm like, "Can we talk?" And well, here we are over a decade later. So it's here we are over a decade later. So it's here we are over a decade later. So it's been great. So, you know, been great. So, you know, been great. So, you know, Les, you've got a very unique position Les, you've got a very unique position Les, you've got a very unique position having bought and sold so many having bought and sold so many having bought and sold so many businesses, businesses, businesses, consulting with so many organizations. consulting with so many organizations. consulting with so many organizations. Um Um Um And by the way, leaders, if you have not And by the way, leaders, if you have not And by the way, leaders, if you have not read Predictable Success, and you have, read Predictable Success, and you have, read Predictable Success, and you have, you know, money for one book left in you know, money for one book left in you know, money for one book left in There it is. One book left in your book There it is. One book left in your book There it is. One book left in your book budget, go buy Predictable Success. It's budget, go buy Predictable Success. It's budget, go buy Predictable Success. It's fantastic. It's just your life will fantastic. It's just your life will fantastic. It's just your life will flash before your eyes. Go back into the flash before your eyes. Go back into the flash before your eyes. Go back into the archive. You can find all the principles archive. You can find all the principles archive. You can find all the principles there. So we're going to go sort of in a there. So we're going to go sort of in a there. So we're going to go sort of in a different direction this time, but yeah, different direction this time, but yeah, different direction this time, but yeah, it was it was earth-shattering for me. it was it was earth-shattering for me. it was it was earth-shattering for me. But you've been you were We ran into But you've been you were We ran into But you've been you were We ran into each other at the Global Leadership each other at the Global Leadership each other at the Global Leadership Summit in Chicago this summer. And we Summit in Chicago this summer. And we Summit in Chicago this summer. And we just happened to accidentally be sitting just happened to accidentally be sitting just happened to accidentally be sitting next to each other. I think you We next to each other. I think you We next to each other. I think you We bumped into each other, literally. It's bumped into each other, literally. It's bumped into each other, literally. It's like, Les! like, Les! like, Les! And you were telling me you did a lot of And you were telling me you did a lot of And you were telling me you did a lot of work with churches lately. So that work with churches lately. So that work with churches lately. So that shifted over the last 2 years where shifted over the last 2 years where shifted over the last 2 years where you're doing a lot of work with you're doing a lot of work with you're doing a lot of work with churches. And you said, "Make sure we churches. And you said, "Make sure we churches. And you said, "Make sure we talk about the rise of mini celebrity talk about the rise of mini celebrity talk about the rise of mini celebrity pastors." So talk about that a little pastors." So talk about that a little pastors." So talk about that a little bit, because celebrity pastors have been bit, because celebrity pastors have been bit, because celebrity pastors have been a while around for a while now. I mean, a while around for a while now. I mean, a while around for a while now. I mean, the broadcast age, the internet age. But the broadcast age, the internet age. But the broadcast age, the internet age. But you're you're talking about mini you're you're talking about mini you're you're talking about mini celebrity pastors. What do you mean?

celebrity pastors. What do you mean? celebrity pastors. What do you mean? Well, first of all, I don't mean Well, first of all, I don't mean Well, first of all, I don't mean anything negative in and of itself. anything negative in and of itself. anything negative in and of itself. Um there are there can be Um there are there can be Um there are there can be enormous negative enormous negative enormous negative consequences, consequences, consequences, which we'll talk about, uh and I'm not which we'll talk about, uh and I'm not which we'll talk about, uh and I'm not talking about scale or anything. I'm talking about scale or anything. I'm talking about scale or anything. I'm just simply talking about scalability, just simply talking about scalability, just simply talking about scalability, the ability to to grow your church. Um the ability to to grow your church. Um the ability to to grow your church. Um it's always been around, as you say. It it's always been around, as you say. It it's always been around, as you say. It It's never not been a thing. And it's It's never not been a thing. And it's It's never not been a thing. And it's we'll also make this very clear. we'll also make this very clear. we'll also make this very clear. It's something that's It It It's something that's It It It's something that's It It It happens in four profits, right? It happens in four profits, right? It happens in four profits, right? Particularly Particularly Particularly in the in the in the financial sector, fintech. You know, financial sector, fintech. You know, financial sector, fintech. You know, every founder is a little mini celebrity every founder is a little mini celebrity every founder is a little mini celebrity these days, particularly if you're doing these days, particularly if you're doing these days, particularly if you're doing AI. You know, you're on every podcast. AI. You know, you're on every podcast. AI. You know, you're on every podcast. So there's nothing Yeah. So there's nothing Yeah. So there's nothing Yeah. There's nothing new about it. And the There's nothing new about it. And the There's nothing new about it. And the change that I've seen is that change that I've seen is that change that I've seen is that with the rise of social media, which I'm with the rise of social media, which I'm with the rise of social media, which I'm not sure if this is even beginning to not sure if this is even beginning to not sure if this is even beginning to sound a little dated, but sound a little dated, but sound a little dated, but the normalization the normalization the normalization of celebrity almost as a of celebrity almost as a of celebrity almost as a as a thing, you know, that you can go as a thing, you know, that you can go as a thing, you know, that you can go and get your thousand followers to get and get your thousand followers to get and get your thousand followers to get yourself started. You know, you get your yourself started. You know, you get your yourself started. You know, you get your YouTube channel. I mean, you know, am I YouTube channel. I mean, you know, am I YouTube channel. I mean, you know, am I talking to the king of talking to the king of talking to the king of YouTube these days?

YouTube these days? YouTube these days? Um Um Um it's not a hard thing to get to the it's not a hard thing to get to the it's not a hard thing to get to the point point point where where where you're not even thinking It's not that you're not even thinking It's not that you're not even thinking It's not that you're doing something for a purpose at you're doing something for a purpose at you're doing something for a purpose at the end. It's beginning to become a part the end. It's beginning to become a part the end. It's beginning to become a part of your identity. of your identity. of your identity. And that's when it can become a little And that's when it can become a little And that's when it can become a little problematic for your church's growth. problematic for your church's growth. problematic for your church's growth. And And And the the bit that's most the the bit that's most the the bit that's most confusing, I think, about it is confusing, I think, about it is confusing, I think, about it is that all of the positives that it that that all of the positives that it that that all of the positives that it that it brings it brings it brings make it an absolutely make it an absolutely make it an absolutely brilliant model, if you want to call it brilliant model, if you want to call it brilliant model, if you want to call it that, for early church growth. Mhm. that, for early church growth. Mhm. that, for early church growth. Mhm. Absolutely Absolutely Absolutely So, if you're planting a church, to have So, if you're planting a church, to have So, if you're planting a church, to have a profile isn't a terrible idea. a profile isn't a terrible idea. a profile isn't a terrible idea. Absolutely fantastic. I mean, and if Absolutely fantastic. I mean, and if Absolutely fantastic. I mean, and if you've got it, and if you're, you know, you've got it, and if you're, you know, you've got it, and if you're, you know, photogenic, telegenic, you know, photogenic, telegenic, you know, photogenic, telegenic, you know, Twittergenic, Xgenic, whatever that it Twittergenic, Xgenic, whatever that it Twittergenic, Xgenic, whatever that it is, is, is, that's fantastic. And people that's fantastic. And people that's fantastic. And people get to experience a bit more of you than get to experience a bit more of you than get to experience a bit more of you than they would do otherwise. It they would do otherwise. It they would do otherwise. It begins to bring a bit of begins to bring a bit of begins to bring a bit of at least perceived intimacy into what is at least perceived intimacy into what is at least perceived intimacy into what is a a, you know, a wholesale set of a a, you know, a wholesale set of a a, you know, a wholesale set of relationships. All of that's great. So, relationships. All of that's great. So, relationships. All of that's great. So, in my terms, in early struggle, in my terms, in early struggle, in my terms, in early struggle, tough then, because you've got so much tough then, because you've got so much tough then, because you've got so much going on, you can't really be building going on, you can't really be building going on, you can't really be building too much of a too much of a too much of a um um sort of branding um um sort of branding um um sort of branding platform, but absolutely in fun, it's platform, but absolutely in fun, it's platform, but absolutely in fun, it's [clears throat]

[clears throat] [clears throat] massively powerful tool. massively powerful tool. massively powerful tool. And And And foreshadowing, let me let me just foreshadowing, let me let me just foreshadowing, let me let me just show the last slide first. show the last slide first. show the last slide first. You can continue with it forever, and it You can continue with it forever, and it You can continue with it forever, and it can be perfectly perfectly good tool to can be perfectly perfectly good tool to can be perfectly perfectly good tool to use, if that's what it is. use, if that's what it is. use, if that's what it is. Where I see the problem Where I see the problem Where I see the problem is is is where if you think about someone who where if you think about someone who where if you think about someone who starts anything, any for-profit, starts anything, any for-profit, starts anything, any for-profit, not-for-profit, cause-based, not-for-profit, cause-based, not-for-profit, cause-based, faith-based, manufacturing, auto parts, faith-based, manufacturing, auto parts, faith-based, manufacturing, auto parts, it doesn't matter. In the early stages it doesn't matter. In the early stages it doesn't matter. In the early stages of their business that they founded, and of their business that they founded, and of their business that they founded, and for those of you that are listening, for those of you that are listening, for those of you that are listening, I've got my two hands clamped together. I've got my two hands clamped together. I've got my two hands clamped together. The the the business, the organization, The the the business, the organization, The the the business, the organization, the church, and that person the church, and that person the church, and that person are Velcro connected. They're absolutely are Velcro connected. They're absolutely are Velcro connected. They're absolutely tied up. Their identities are so tied up. Their identities are so tied up. Their identities are so enmeshed, you couldn't if you tried, you enmeshed, you couldn't if you tried, you enmeshed, you couldn't if you tried, you couldn't separate. couldn't separate. couldn't separate. Again, perfectly fine for there. Again, perfectly fine for there. Again, perfectly fine for there. There comes a point, it's the stage I There comes a point, it's the stage I There comes a point, it's the stage I call whitewater in my model, call whitewater in my model, call whitewater in my model, and it's starting in and around the sort and it's starting in and around the sort and it's starting in and around the sort of 250, 300, 400 size of 250, 300, 400 size of 250, 300, 400 size church, church, church, where where where you have a decision to make. Again, any you have a decision to make. Again, any you have a decision to make. Again, any organization, not just churches.

organization, not just churches. organization, not just churches. Which is Which is Which is okay, do we stay okay, do we stay okay, do we stay a boutique version of what we do, stay a boutique version of what we do, stay a boutique version of what we do, stay in the world that I call fun, in the world that I call fun, in the world that I call fun, and don't go for absolute growth. and don't go for absolute growth. and don't go for absolute growth. And that case, all is well. Just rinse And that case, all is well. Just rinse And that case, all is well. Just rinse and repeat, keep doing it, rinse and and repeat, keep doing it, rinse and and repeat, keep doing it, rinse and repeat, keep doing it. repeat, keep doing it. repeat, keep doing it. If you want to grow your church, If you want to grow your church, If you want to grow your church, one of the one of the one of the non-negotiables, non-negotiables, non-negotiables, although it never although it never although it never steps up and says, "Hey, you got to do steps up and says, "Hey, you got to do steps up and says, "Hey, you got to do this." is this." is this." is the two entities have got to begin to the two entities have got to begin to the two entities have got to begin to separate. The church separate. The church separate. The church >> and >> and >> and >> and the founding person >> and the founding person >> and the founding person have got to become separate, clearly have got to become separate, clearly have got to become separate, clearly identified identified identified entities. entities. entities. Now, it doesn't need to be seen Now, it doesn't need to be seen Now, it doesn't need to be seen necessarily necessarily necessarily from a distance, and that's where from a distance, and that's where from a distance, and that's where you can continue to build a platform, you can continue to build a platform, you can continue to build a platform, and and make it very, very useful, and and make it very, very useful, and and make it very, very useful, so long as you're not running on that as so long as you're not running on that as so long as you're not running on that as your leadership platform, as well.

your leadership platform, as well. your leadership platform, as well. So, your branding platform So, your branding platform So, your branding platform begins to become prob- problematic as a begins to become prob- problematic as a begins to become prob- problematic as a leadership platform in some very, very leadership platform in some very, very leadership platform in some very, very specific ways. specific ways. specific ways. Okay. So, that's where it's problematic. Okay. So, that's where it's problematic. Okay. So, that's where it's problematic. It's Yeah. It's not a thing wrong with It's Yeah. It's not a thing wrong with It's Yeah. It's not a thing wrong with it in and of itself. There's nothing it in and of itself. There's nothing it in and of itself. There's nothing wrong with it if you're going to stay a wrong with it if you're going to stay a wrong with it if you're going to stay a certain size and not push too hard to certain size and not push too hard to certain size and not push too hard to get beyond it. And there's nothing wrong get beyond it. And there's nothing wrong get beyond it. And there's nothing wrong with it if you get with it if you get with it if you get the distance to be able to say, "This is the distance to be able to say, "This is the distance to be able to say, "This is a tool I'm using. It's not who I am." a tool I'm using. It's not who I am." a tool I'm using. It's not who I am." Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Does that make sense? It does. It does. You know what I want It does. It does. You know what I want It does. It does. You know what I want to do? I want to come back to that and to do? I want to come back to that and to do? I want to come back to that and drill a little bit deeper. drill a little bit deeper. drill a little bit deeper. Um if you want the deep dive on the Um if you want the deep dive on the Um if you want the deep dive on the question I'm going to ask you, go back question I'm going to ask you, go back question I'm going to ask you, go back to the first interview with Les and I. I to the first interview with Les and I. I to the first interview with Les and I. I think it was episode 103. Get his book. think it was episode 103. Get his book. think it was episode 103. Get his book. But if you could give us the elevator But if you could give us the elevator But if you could give us the elevator crash course in the predictable success crash course in the predictable success crash course in the predictable success model, the I think it is seven stages or model, the I think it is seven stages or model, the I think it is seven stages or whatever it is, that'd be great. whatever it is, that'd be great. whatever it is, that'd be great. Starting with fun Starting with fun Starting with fun uh right through death rattle. Sure. So, uh right through death rattle. Sure. So, uh right through death rattle. Sure. So, it's the parabola, it's the life cycle, it's the parabola, it's the life cycle, it's the parabola, it's the life cycle, and it's um a couple of quick caveats. and it's um a couple of quick caveats. and it's um a couple of quick caveats. First of all, it's not something I First of all, it's not something I First of all, it's not something I invented, I just invented, I just invented, I just saw it, put words to it. And second saw it, put words to it. And second saw it, put words to it. And second thing is, it's thing is, it's thing is, it's rather akin to the human life cycle. You rather akin to the human life cycle. You rather akin to the human life cycle. You know, we reach a we start, we reach a know, we reach a we start, we reach a know, we reach a we start, we reach a peak, and then we age. The one peak, and then we age. The one peak, and then we age. The one difference is, and it's a pretty big difference is, and it's a pretty big difference is, and it's a pretty big one, is that you can circle, cycle the one, is that you can circle, cycle the one, is that you can circle, cycle the stages organizationally. We can't get stages organizationally. We can't get stages organizationally. We can't get that.

that. that. At least I have Nobody's sent me the At least I have Nobody's sent me the At least I have Nobody's sent me the memo if if it's possible for human memo if if it's possible for human memo if if it's possible for human beings to reverse aging. It's not uh beings to reverse aging. It's not uh beings to reverse aging. It's not uh It's not something I don't I've It's not something I don't I've It's not something I don't I've experienced personally. Yeah. So, three experienced personally. Yeah. So, three experienced personally. Yeah. So, three growth stages, a peak stage, which I growth stages, a peak stage, which I growth stages, a peak stage, which I call predictable success, three decline call predictable success, three decline call predictable success, three decline stages. stages. stages. And there's this sort of a mirror image And there's this sort of a mirror image And there's this sort of a mirror image that goes on. Uh the three growth that goes on. Uh the three growth that goes on. Uh the three growth stages, first of all, early struggle, stages, first of all, early struggle, stages, first of all, early struggle, sometimes called the startup phase. I sometimes called the startup phase. I sometimes called the startup phase. I don't like that phrase for a whole bunch don't like that phrase for a whole bunch don't like that phrase for a whole bunch of reasons, so I call it early struggle, of reasons, so I call it early struggle, of reasons, so I call it early struggle, cuz that's what it is. There's nothing cuz that's what it is. There's nothing cuz that's what it is. There's nothing glorious about it. It's not to be wished glorious about it. It's not to be wished glorious about it. It's not to be wished for. The only strategy for for. The only strategy for for. The only strategy for a a a business or a church in early struggle business or a church in early struggle business or a church in early struggle is to get out of there. is to get out of there. is to get out of there. The only The only The only >> So, obviously, if you're starting >> So, obviously, if you're starting >> So, obviously, if you're starting something from scratch, you're in early something from scratch, you're in early something from scratch, you're in early struggle. So, church planters, but like struggle. So, church planters, but like struggle. So, church planters, but like 30 years ago, I started at three small 30 years ago, I started at three small 30 years ago, I started at three small declining churches that were in death declining churches that were in death declining churches that were in death rattle, literally, the final cycle, like rattle, literally, the final cycle, like rattle, literally, the final cycle, like it was going to be last one out turn out it was going to be last one out turn out it was going to be last one out turn out the lights in a couple of years. And the lights in a couple of years. And the lights in a couple of years. And then we basically became a church plant. then we basically became a church plant. then we basically became a church plant. Like we were totally rejuvenating. So, Like we were totally rejuvenating. So, Like we were totally rejuvenating. So, I'm thinking about everybody who's I'm thinking about everybody who's I'm thinking about everybody who's trying to revive something that has trying to revive something that has trying to revive something that has almost died. Would they also be in early almost died. Would they also be in early almost died. Would they also be in early struggle, or would that be a different struggle, or would that be a different struggle, or would that be a different thing? And that's one of the key thing? And that's one of the key thing? And that's one of the key distinctions is that you can get into distinctions is that you can get into distinctions is that you can get into death rattle. In fact, the only the only death rattle. In fact, the only the only death rattle. In fact, the only the only two options you have are actually put two options you have are actually put two options you have are actually put this thing into the ground, it's over, this thing into the ground, it's over, this thing into the ground, it's over, or you should cross here, throw away all or you should cross here, throw away all or you should cross here, throw away all the detritus, and start again, and the detritus, and start again, and the detritus, and start again, and you're starting in early struggle. May you're starting in early struggle. May you're starting in early struggle. May not feel that way, because you've got a not feel that way, because you've got a not feel that way, because you've got a bunch of stuff, but it's still early bunch of stuff, but it's still early bunch of stuff, but it's still early struggle, struggle, struggle, >> Yeah. In other words, you're reinventing >> Yeah. In other words, you're reinventing >> Yeah. In other words, you're reinventing the church. You're reinventing the the church. You're reinventing the the church. You're reinventing the company for people listening. Okay, company for people listening. Okay, company for people listening. Okay, great. So, that's early struggle. So, if

great. So, that's early struggle. So, if great. So, that's early struggle. So, if you're like trying to reinvent you're like trying to reinvent you're like trying to reinvent everything or inventing everything, everything or inventing everything, everything or inventing everything, You're just trying to get You're just trying to get You're just trying to get you're you're just trying to you're you're you're just trying to you're you're you're just trying to you're trying to get solvent is the blunt truth trying to get solvent is the blunt truth trying to get solvent is the blunt truth about it, and it's one of the things about it, and it's one of the things about it, and it's one of the things >> money to do this again tomorrow? It's >> money to do this again tomorrow? It's >> money to do this again tomorrow? It's hard to hard to hard to given that we have chosen to live in an given that we have chosen to live in an given that we have chosen to live in an a capitalist environment, it's a capitalist environment, it's a capitalist environment, it's really, really difficult to change the really, really difficult to change the really, really difficult to change the world if you can't pay the bills. That world if you can't pay the bills. That world if you can't pay the bills. That doesn't sound very, you know, romantic. doesn't sound very, you know, romantic. doesn't sound very, you know, romantic. This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church Law and Tax. Well, it's almost tax Law and Tax. Well, it's almost tax Law and Tax. Well, it's almost tax season, and it has a way of sneaking up season, and it has a way of sneaking up season, and it has a way of sneaking up on church leaders, right? So, the on church leaders, right? So, the on church leaders, right? So, the question is, what do you do about that, question is, what do you do about that, question is, what do you do about that, right? It's so stressful. Are we doing right? It's so stressful. Are we doing right? It's so stressful. Are we doing this right? Are we getting all the boxes this right? Are we getting all the boxes this right? Are we getting all the boxes checked, right? Cuz you got tax filing, checked, right? Cuz you got tax filing, checked, right? Cuz you got tax filing, payroll, housing allowance, payroll, housing allowance, payroll, housing allowance, reimbursement. It's a lot. And that's reimbursement. It's a lot. And that's reimbursement. It's a lot. And that's why I want to point you to the online why I want to point you to the online why I want to point you to the online Church and Clergy Tax Guide from our Church and Clergy Tax Guide from our Church and Clergy Tax Guide from our friends at Church Law and Tax. For friends at Church Law and Tax. For friends at Church Law and Tax. For nearly 40 years, it has been the go-to nearly 40 years, it has been the go-to nearly 40 years, it has been the go-to resource US pastors trust to handle resource US pastors trust to handle resource US pastors trust to handle taxes with confidence. It's fully taxes with confidence. It's fully taxes with confidence. It's fully online, fully searchable, so you can online, fully searchable, so you can online, fully searchable, so you can find answers in seconds, and it's find answers in seconds, and it's find answers in seconds, and it's updated with the latest changes, updated with the latest changes, updated with the latest changes, including how to navigate the One Big including how to navigate the One Big including how to navigate the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. And now you can even Beautiful Bill Act. And now you can even Beautiful Bill Act. And now you can even ask Richie, their new AI assistant, how ask Richie, their new AI assistant, how ask Richie, their new AI assistant, how it applies to your church without the it applies to your church without the it applies to your church without the legal or tax jargon. So, if you want to legal or tax jargon. So, if you want to legal or tax jargon. So, if you want to head into tax season prepared instead of head into tax season prepared instead of head into tax season prepared instead of panic, this is a great next step. So, panic, this is a great next step. So, panic, this is a great next step. So, here's what you do. Go to here's what you do. Go to here's what you do. Go to churchlawandtax.com/carey churchlawandtax.com/carey churchlawandtax.com/carey to become a member and access the guide to become a member and access the guide to become a member and access the guide today. That's churchlawandtax.com/carey,

and you will get in today. I yeah, I and you will get in today. I yeah, I said we were going to do the elevator said we were going to do the elevator said we were going to do the elevator pitch, but this is really good. I I pitch, but this is really good. I I pitch, but this is really good. I I talked to I talked to talked to I talked to talked to I talked to or I was listening to some business or I was listening to some business or I was listening to some business podcasts recently, podcasts recently, podcasts recently, and basically, one of the common themes and basically, one of the common themes and basically, one of the common themes was was was usually, entrepreneurs don't run out of usually, entrepreneurs don't run out of usually, entrepreneurs don't run out of vision, they run out of money, and vision, they run out of money, and vision, they run out of money, and that's why businesses fail. You start a that's why businesses fail. You start a that's why businesses fail. You start a restaurant, you start a new AI startup, restaurant, you start a new AI startup, restaurant, you start a new AI startup, and it's not that you don't have ideas, and it's not that you don't have ideas, and it's not that you don't have ideas, it's not that you don't have passion. it's not that you don't have passion. it's not that you don't have passion. Same with churches, right? You just ran Same with churches, right? You just ran Same with churches, right? You just ran out of money, and the funding was over, out of money, and the funding was over, out of money, and the funding was over, and you couldn't keep the doors open. and you couldn't keep the doors open. and you couldn't keep the doors open. So, it really is a struggle for cash to So, it really is a struggle for cash to So, it really is a struggle for cash to support the ministry. Yeah, and it support the ministry. Yeah, and it support the ministry. Yeah, and it eventually your energy eventually your energy eventually your energy When we planted Connexus in 2007, end of When we planted Connexus in 2007, end of When we planted Connexus in 2007, end of 2007, by February of 2009, we were down 2007, by February of 2009, we were down 2007, by February of 2009, we were down to the last $5,000 in the bank. Right. to the last $5,000 in the bank. Right. to the last $5,000 in the bank. Right. And it was like one of those, "Woo, And it was like one of those, "Woo, And it was like one of those, "Woo, we're starting over again." And we did, we're starting over again." And we did, we're starting over again." And we did, and then now, you know, took off from and then now, you know, took off from and then now, you know, took off from there. But like yeah, you get there. there. But like yeah, you get there. there. But like yeah, you get there. And for the And for the And for the one in five, I mean, the statistics one in five, I mean, the statistics one in five, I mean, the statistics float around all over the place, but I'm float around all over the place, but I'm float around all over the place, but I'm pretty convinced it's pretty accurate pretty convinced it's pretty accurate pretty convinced it's pretty accurate number is about 80% of all new ventures number is about 80% of all new ventures number is about 80% of all new ventures fail within three years. Uh the one in fail within three years. Uh the one in fail within three years. Uh the one in five that make it through, they hit the five that make it through, they hit the five that make it through, they hit the the first real stage of growth with fun the first real stage of growth with fun the first real stage of growth with fun or market. People are people are buying or market. People are people are buying or market. People are people are buying this. Church terms, people are coming to this. Church terms, people are coming to this. Church terms, people are coming to this. That, you know, I've found my this. That, you know, I've found my this. That, you know, I've found my market. I'm not scrabbling around trying market. I'm not scrabbling around trying market. I'm not scrabbling around trying to get non-family members to turn up and to get non-family members to turn up and to get non-family members to turn up and give me a quorum on a Sunday morning.

give me a quorum on a Sunday morning. give me a quorum on a Sunday morning. You know, it's there. I don't panic when You know, it's there. I don't panic when You know, it's there. I don't panic when I hear somebody's, you know, got a cold, I hear somebody's, you know, got a cold, I hear somebody's, you know, got a cold, head cold, might not be there. And you head cold, might not be there. And you head cold, might not be there. And you know, we've got momentum. know, we've got momentum. know, we've got momentum. I give that stage a very technical name. I give that stage a very technical name. I give that stage a very technical name. I call it fun, cuz it is fun. I mean, we I call it fun, cuz it is fun. I mean, we I call it fun, cuz it is fun. I mean, we have our moments, there's trouble, have our moments, there's trouble, have our moments, there's trouble, there's problems, all that sort of there's problems, all that sort of there's problems, all that sort of stuff, but essentially, it's real fun. stuff, but essentially, it's real fun. stuff, but essentially, it's real fun. It's what most people think they started It's what most people think they started It's what most people think they started their church for, for this phase. This their church for, for this phase. This their church for, for this phase. This is what we And it feels like this is it. is what we And it feels like this is it. is what we And it feels like this is it. This is what we're here to do. This is what we're here to do. This is what we're here to do. And and it can be, because fun is one of And and it can be, because fun is one of And and it can be, because fun is one of the only only two of the seven stages the only only two of the seven stages the only only two of the seven stages you want to be in, and fun is the first you want to be in, and fun is the first you want to be in, and fun is the first of and of and of and I think it's a brave decision, and I think it's a brave decision, and I think it's a brave decision, and sometimes the right one. This is easier sometimes the right one. This is easier sometimes the right one. This is easier more easily heard in the for-profit more easily heard in the for-profit more easily heard in the for-profit world than in church world because of world than in church world because of world than in church world because of the grand commission. But there's a lot the grand commission. But there's a lot the grand commission. But there's a lot to be said for folks who sit who decide, to be said for folks who sit who decide, to be said for folks who sit who decide, "No, we're staying here. We're doing "No, we're staying here. We're doing "No, we're staying here. We're doing this. We're working in this niche area. this. We're working in this niche area. this. We're working in this niche area. Maybe working with a specific demogra- Maybe working with a specific demogra- Maybe working with a specific demogra- demographic and I don't want 12 demographic and I don't want 12 demographic and I don't want 12 locations." Mhm. locations." Mhm. locations." Mhm. >> We're we're we're going to do this >> We're we're we're going to do this >> We're we're we're going to do this really really well and I have a heart really really well and I have a heart really really well and I have a heart for this to be done elsewhere. So, why for this to be done elsewhere. So, why for this to be done elsewhere. So, why don't you go and do that? This episode don't you go and do that? This episode don't you go and do that? This episode is brought to you by my Art of is brought to you by my Art of is brought to you by my Art of Leadership Academy. One of the key Leadership Academy. One of the key Leadership Academy. One of the key insights I took away from my insights I took away from my insights I took away from my conversation with Les McKeown is this.

conversation with Les McKeown is this. conversation with Les McKeown is this. If the church can only move at the speed If the church can only move at the speed If the church can only move at the speed of one leader's insight, the church will of one leader's insight, the church will of one leader's insight, the church will always be limited by that leader's always be limited by that leader's always be limited by that leader's capacity. Or put another way, church capacity. Or put another way, church capacity. Or put another way, church growth accelerates when leadership is growth accelerates when leadership is growth accelerates when leadership is distributed. So, the Art of Leadership distributed. So, the Art of Leadership distributed. So, the Art of Leadership Academy is designed to help you and your Academy is designed to help you and your Academy is designed to help you and your team think, decide, and lead at a way team think, decide, and lead at a way team think, decide, and lead at a way higher level together. When your whole higher level together. When your whole higher level together. When your whole team is learning the same language, team is learning the same language, team is learning the same language, values, and leadership frameworks, guess values, and leadership frameworks, guess values, and leadership frameworks, guess what? You stop relying on one voice and what? You stop relying on one voice and what? You stop relying on one voice and you start building a leadership culture you start building a leadership culture you start building a leadership culture that lasts. So, here are a few simple that lasts. So, here are a few simple that lasts. So, here are a few simple ways to get started. You could read an ways to get started. You could read an ways to get started. You could read an article inside the academy and talk article inside the academy and talk article inside the academy and talk about it together in a staff meeting or about it together in a staff meeting or about it together in a staff meeting or a slack channel. You could download my a slack channel. You could download my a slack channel. You could download my preaching cheat sheet and bounce sermon preaching cheat sheet and bounce sermon preaching cheat sheet and bounce sermon ideas off each other. Start a real ideas off each other. Start a real ideas off each other. Start a real collaborative process or even sitting collaborative process or even sitting collaborative process or even sitting down and working through a course down and working through a course down and working through a course together like the Art of Preaching or together like the Art of Preaching or together like the Art of Preaching or Fund the Future. Well, that's a way to Fund the Future. Well, that's a way to Fund the Future. Well, that's a way to really move the needle in your ministry. really move the needle in your ministry. really move the needle in your ministry. So, you can get started completely free So, you can get started completely free So, you can get started completely free at the art of leadershipacademy.com at the art of leadershipacademy.com at the art of leadershipacademy.com or simply click the link in the or simply click the link in the or simply click the link in the description of this episode. Remember, description of this episode. Remember, description of this episode. Remember, don't just grow as a leader, grow as a don't just grow as a leader, grow as a don't just grow as a leader, grow as a team. Click the link in the description team. Click the link in the description team. Click the link in the description and you can get started for free. So, and you can get started for free. So, and you can get started for free. So, you've kept it relatively small. You're you've kept it relatively small. You're you've kept it relatively small. You're growing. You have money in the bank. But growing. You have money in the bank. But growing. You have money in the bank. But Uh but it's a happy time and you know Uh but it's a happy time and you know Uh but it's a happy time and you know >> You feel fulfilled and you get to be >> You feel fulfilled and you get to be >> You feel fulfilled and you get to be king. You get to have this. You know, king. You get to have this. You know, king. You get to have this. You know, you can you and you can you and you can you and >> And are you know, you're the face of the >> And are you know, you're the face of the >> And are you know, you're the face of the whole thing. And you can lead that way whole thing. And you can lead that way whole thing. And you can lead that way and will lead that way and we'll come and will lead that way and we'll come and will lead that way and we'll come back in a second or two to the

back in a second or two to the back in a second or two to the ramifications of that. You then hit the ramifications of that. You then hit the ramifications of that. You then hit the third growth stage which doesn't feel third growth stage which doesn't feel third growth stage which doesn't feel like growth stage at all. I call it like growth stage at all. I call it like growth stage at all. I call it white water and it's essentially the white water and it's essentially the white water and it's essentially the point at which just the complexity of point at which just the complexity of point at which just the complexity of this. We've opened one more location or this. We've opened one more location or this. We've opened one more location or maybe our our first new location or maybe our our first new location or maybe our our first new location or we've added some services or we've just we've added some services or we've just we've added some services or we've just got a bunch of people services now. We got a bunch of people services now. We got a bunch of people services now. We doubled our staff. And and it just the doubled our staff. And and it just the doubled our staff. And and it just the complexity of this means that the way we complexity of this means that the way we complexity of this means that the way we were doing things really well for so were doing things really well for so were doing things really well for so long which was just a turn up and do it long which was just a turn up and do it long which was just a turn up and do it throw massive effort at indicated thing. throw massive effort at indicated thing. throw massive effort at indicated thing. I mean, I mean, I mean, running a church, running a business, running a church, running a business, running a church, running a business, running anything in fun is slightly what running anything in fun is slightly what running anything in fun is slightly what I'm about to say is a slight I'm about to say is a slight I'm about to say is a slight exaggeration but not much. It's like exaggeration but not much. It's like exaggeration but not much. It's like watching 6-year-olds play soccer. It's watching 6-year-olds play soccer. It's watching 6-year-olds play soccer. It's flock ball, right? There's just the ball flock ball, right? There's just the ball flock ball, right? There's just the ball is the thing that needs to be chased. We is the thing that needs to be chased. We is the thing that needs to be chased. We chase it and all 22 players are around chase it and all 22 players are around chase it and all 22 players are around it and you know, wherever the ball goes, it and you know, wherever the ball goes, it and you know, wherever the ball goes, they go. And that's what we do in fun they go. And that's what we do in fun they go. And that's what we do in fun and that's one of the reasons it's fun. and that's one of the reasons it's fun. and that's one of the reasons it's fun. People don't get People don't get People don't get head up about job titles. We're we're head up about job titles. We're we're head up about job titles. We're we're not filling in spreadsheets till we're not filling in spreadsheets till we're not filling in spreadsheets till we're crying through our ears. You know, we're crying through our ears. You know, we're crying through our ears. You know, we're just doing the thing. It's relatively just doing the thing. It's relatively just doing the thing. It's relatively simple. Now it's getting complex and simple. Now it's getting complex and simple. Now it's getting complex and we're having to put systems and we're having to put systems and we're having to put systems and processes in place. That's when the processes in place. That's when the processes in place. That's when the decision has to be made. Do we go back decision has to be made. Do we go back decision has to be made. Do we go back to where we were or do we put systems to where we were or do we put systems to where we were or do we put systems and processes in place to manage this and processes in place to manage this and processes in place to manage this complexity and then get up to the next complexity and then get up to the next complexity and then get up to the next stage, the peak stage which I call stage, the peak stage which I call stage, the peak stage which I call predictable success. And the key differ- predictable success. And the key differ- predictable success. And the key differ- That's the second and last of the stages That's the second and last of the stages That's the second and last of the stages that you want to be in either fun or that you want to be in either fun or that you want to be in either fun or predictable success. You don't want to predictable success. You don't want to predictable success. You don't want to be in early struggle or in white water be in early struggle or in white water be in early struggle or in white water for any longer than you have to. You for any longer than you have to. You for any longer than you have to. You can't avoid them but you don't want to can't avoid them but you don't want to can't avoid them but you don't want to be in there for any longer than you have

be in there for any longer than you have be in there for any longer than you have to. to. to. Why would you choose predictable success Why would you choose predictable success Why would you choose predictable success over fun? In fun, you can grow but over fun? In fun, you can grow but over fun? In fun, you can grow but there's always a cap. There's always a there's always a cap. There's always a there's always a cap. There's always a cap and and white water is that cap. In cap and and white water is that cap. In cap and and white water is that cap. In predictable success, your growth and for predictable success, your growth and for predictable success, your growth and for the folks that are listening, I'm now the folks that are listening, I'm now the folks that are listening, I'm now doing a sweeping J curve with my hand. doing a sweeping J curve with my hand. doing a sweeping J curve with my hand. Uh growth is a a Uh growth is a a Uh growth is a a Get these wrong sometimes. Uh convex Get these wrong sometimes. Uh convex Get these wrong sometimes. Uh convex curve as opposed to a concave No, curve as opposed to a concave No, curve as opposed to a concave No, concave curve. concave curve. concave curve. >> out. So, welcome to the club. >> out. So, welcome to the club. >> out. So, welcome to the club. >> J curve. It's the ability You you can >> J curve. It's the ability You you can >> J curve. It's the ability You you can grow grow grow >> much much more than you can in fun. >> much much more than you can in fun. >> much much more than you can in fun. And that's And that's And that's That That's the whole of the growth That That's the whole of the growth That That's the whole of the growth stage really really quickly. Uh we're stage really really quickly. Uh we're stage really really quickly. Uh we're not going to spend too much time on it not going to spend too much time on it not going to spend too much time on it but but but in theory, if you keep doing the right in theory, if you keep doing the right in theory, if you keep doing the right things, you can stay up there in things, you can stay up there in things, you can stay up there in predictable success for a long time and predictable success for a long time and predictable success for a long time and you will know many churches who have you will know many churches who have you will know many churches who have done that and are doing the right things done that and are doing the right things done that and are doing the right things and they're they're staying there. Now, and they're they're staying there. Now, and they're they're staying there. Now, it is a process. You can't just sort of it is a process. You can't just sort of it is a process. You can't just sort of stop and everything will be fine. And stop and everything will be fine. And stop and everything will be fine. And one of the main processes is preventing one of the main processes is preventing one of the main processes is preventing yourself from declining and and you The yourself from declining and and you The yourself from declining and and you The way to do that is the first decline way to do that is the first decline way to do that is the first decline stage I call treadmill.

stage I call treadmill. stage I call treadmill. It's sort of the mirror image of white It's sort of the mirror image of white It's sort of the mirror image of white water. White water for the first time we water. White water for the first time we water. White water for the first time we were completely under process- were completely under process- were completely under process- systematized enterprise-wide if you want systematized enterprise-wide if you want systematized enterprise-wide if you want to call it that, church-wide. In to call it that, church-wide. In to call it that, church-wide. In treadmill, we're for the first time over treadmill, we're for the first time over treadmill, we're for the first time over systematized. Why did we do that? systematized. Why did we do that? systematized. Why did we do that? Because hey, look what systems and Because hey, look what systems and Because hey, look what systems and processes did just did for us. It gives processes did just did for us. It gives processes did just did for us. It gives us the ability to scale. So, let's have us the ability to scale. So, let's have us the ability to scale. So, let's have more of that. We have more of it. We more of that. We have more of it. We more of that. We have more of it. We start to get bureaucratic. We lose our start to get bureaucratic. We lose our start to get bureaucratic. We lose our edge. We We know we're not creative. edge. We We know we're not creative. edge. We We know we're not creative. We're not innovative. It's rinse and We're not innovative. It's rinse and We're not innovative. It's rinse and repeat. You know, this Easter is just a repeat. You know, this Easter is just a repeat. You know, this Easter is just a rehash of last Easter's rehash of last Easter's rehash of last Easter's whole thing. Not a lot new being brought whole thing. Not a lot new being brought whole thing. Not a lot new being brought into play. into play. into play. Treadmill is reversible and you do that Treadmill is reversible and you do that Treadmill is reversible and you do that just by reducing the systems back. Not just by reducing the systems back. Not just by reducing the systems back. Not You don't throw them out cuz you'll just You don't throw them out cuz you'll just You don't throw them out cuz you'll just fall back into white water. You reduce fall back into white water. You reduce fall back into white water. You reduce them back to what they need to be. them back to what they need to be. them back to what they need to be. But if you don't do that, you'll fall But if you don't do that, you'll fall But if you don't do that, you'll fall into the big rut which is a long slow into the big rut which is a long slow into the big rut which is a long slow decline into irrelevance. Why long and decline into irrelevance. Why long and decline into irrelevance. Why long and slow? Because you got a very healthy slow? Because you got a very healthy slow? Because you got a very healthy balance sheet from all of that time in balance sheet from all of that time in balance sheet from all of that time in predictable success. You've got a lot of predictable success. You've got a lot of predictable success. You've got a lot of followers. You've got a you know, big followers. You've got a you know, big followers. You've got a you know, big congregation. congregation. congregation. But they don't want any change. It's But they don't want any change. It's But they don't want any change. It's nothing's moving here, right? Before you nothing's moving here, right? Before you nothing's moving here, right? Before you get to the next stage, can I just Can I get to the next stage, can I just Can I get to the next stage, can I just Can I just say to leaders listening, you know, just say to leaders listening, you know, just say to leaders listening, you know, it's cool. This podcast been around for it's cool. This podcast been around for it's cool. This podcast been around for 11 years but I was talking to a few 11 years but I was talking to a few 11 years but I was talking to a few leaders leaders leaders when I was out speaking this fall and when I was out speaking this fall and when I was out speaking this fall and they said, you know, a bunch of us who they said, you know, a bunch of us who they said, you know, a bunch of us who are millennials now are just getting are millennials now are just getting are millennials now are just getting into leadership and there's a whole new into leadership and there's a whole new into leadership and there's a whole new generation of new senior pastors who generation of new senior pastors who generation of new senior pastors who were like youth pastors or college were like youth pastors or college were like youth pastors or college students when this podcast came out. But students when this podcast came out. But students when this podcast came out. But now they're the senior pastor and now they're the senior pastor and now they're the senior pastor and they're inheriting a lot of churches

they're inheriting a lot of churches they're inheriting a lot of churches that are in that big rut. Yeah. Or that are in that big rut. Yeah. Or that are in that big rut. Yeah. Or whatever where Oh, the glory days were 8 whatever where Oh, the glory days were 8 whatever where Oh, the glory days were 8 years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago but it's a slow decline. Right. ago but it's a slow decline. Right. ago but it's a slow decline. Right. >> And they were told that it was growing >> And they were told that it was growing >> And they were told that it was growing and then they discover it's not. and then they discover it's not. and then they discover it's not. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, if that's you and there are >> So, if that's you and there are >> So, if that's you and there are thousands of pastors and church leaders thousands of pastors and church leaders thousands of pastors and church leaders and leaders, honestly, listening who've and leaders, honestly, listening who've and leaders, honestly, listening who've inherited something that's not growing, inherited something that's not growing, inherited something that's not growing, listen up cuz Les Les is reading your listen up cuz Les Les is reading your listen up cuz Les Les is reading your mail right now. mail right now. mail right now. And so, the big rut And so, the big rut And so, the big rut one of the unfortunate things about it one of the unfortunate things about it one of the unfortunate things about it is it's pretty much irreversible. Beca- is it's pretty much irreversible. Beca- is it's pretty much irreversible. Beca- And why? Because And why? Because And why? Because people like it like that. They actually people like it like that. They actually people like it like that. They actually don't diagnose it as problematic. When I don't diagnose it as problematic. When I don't diagnose it as problematic. When I draw my draw my draw my um um um uh my model Mhm. when I'm starting a a uh my model Mhm. when I'm starting a a uh my model Mhm. when I'm starting a a session, I I draw the four obviously session, I I draw the four obviously session, I I draw the four obviously painful stages, the squiggly parts of painful stages, the squiggly parts of painful stages, the squiggly parts of the the the life cycle. So, early struggle, you know life cycle. So, early struggle, you know life cycle. So, early struggle, you know you're having a really tough time. In you're having a really tough time. In you're having a really tough time. In white water, you know you're having a white water, you know you're having a white water, you know you're having a tough time. In treadmill, you know tough time. In treadmill, you know tough time. In treadmill, you know you're having a tough time. And death you're having a tough time. And death you're having a tough time. And death rattle, it's obvious this thing's dead.

rattle, it's obvious this thing's dead. rattle, it's obvious this thing's dead. White water, I draw the same as fun and White water, I draw the same as fun and White water, I draw the same as fun and predictable success, a straight line cuz predictable success, a straight line cuz predictable success, a straight line cuz inside everything's harmonious. The inside everything's harmonious. The inside everything's harmonious. The customers are a bit of a pain in the customers are a bit of a pain in the customers are a bit of a pain in the neck if you're in a for-profit business neck if you're in a for-profit business neck if you're in a for-profit business but you know, nothing's going to change but you know, nothing's going to change but you know, nothing's going to change here and we're all comfortable and we're here and we're all comfortable and we're here and we're all comfortable and we're happy with it. But it's a long long happy with it. But it's a long long happy with it. But it's a long long decline decline decline >> a few people every month, few less >> a few people every month, few less >> a few people every month, few less people every year but there's been money people every year but there's been money people every year but there's been money in the bank to keep going and Correct. in the bank to keep going and Correct. in the bank to keep going and Correct. And then finally, there's the stage you And then finally, there's the stage you And then finally, there's the stage you talked about talked about talked about uh uh uh uh uh as you're sort of incubation for uh uh as you're sort of incubation for uh uh as you're sort of incubation for what you built which is the death rattle what you built which is the death rattle what you built which is the death rattle stage whenever it looks Oh, something's stage whenever it looks Oh, something's stage whenever it looks Oh, something's happening here but all that's happening happening here but all that's happening happening here but all that's happening is this thing is either rebirthing or is this thing is either rebirthing or is this thing is either rebirthing or it's just being put to bed. So, that's it's just being put to bed. So, that's it's just being put to bed. So, that's the life cycle in a in a hurry. And what the life cycle in a in a hurry. And what the life cycle in a in a hurry. And what we're talking about here is something we're talking about here is something we're talking about here is something that's universal which is that's universal which is that's universal which is as as as Marshall Goldsmith wrote the best title Marshall Goldsmith wrote the best title Marshall Goldsmith wrote the best title to a book ever. Se- He wrote a number of to a book ever. Se- He wrote a number of to a book ever. Se- He wrote a number of brilliant books but his book with the brilliant books but his book with the brilliant books but his book with the title What Got You Here Won't Get You title What Got You Here Won't Get You title What Got You Here Won't Get You There says everything that I'm sharing There says everything that I'm sharing There says everything that I'm sharing at the moment. Because the leadership at the moment. Because the leadership at the moment. Because the leadership style we build Set the many celebrity style we build Set the many celebrity style we build Set the many celebrity side aspect label aside for a moment or side aspect label aside for a moment or side aspect label aside for a moment or so.

so. so. We can bring a Blair It back on in a We can bring a Blair It back on in a We can bring a Blair It back on in a second. The leadership style that's second. The leadership style that's second. The leadership style that's needed in fun, needed in fun which is a needed in fun, needed in fun which is a needed in fun, needed in fun which is a hard-charging visionary setting the hard-charging visionary setting the hard-charging visionary setting the direction and a group of water carriers direction and a group of water carriers direction and a group of water carriers enabling enabling enabling the achievement of that vision. the achievement of that vision. the achievement of that vision. That's That's not like a good thing to That's That's not like a good thing to That's That's not like a good thing to have in fun. It's your lifeline. It's have in fun. It's your lifeline. It's have in fun. It's your lifeline. It's how you're going to survive fun. And how you're going to survive fun. And how you're going to survive fun. And once you hit white water, once you hit white water, once you hit white water, almost like that, it becomes almost like that, it becomes almost like that, it becomes problematic. It's not like it ages out. problematic. It's not like it ages out. problematic. It's not like it ages out. It As soon as you begin to get stretched It As soon as you begin to get stretched It As soon as you begin to get stretched because what's this complexity doing? because what's this complexity doing? because what's this complexity doing? First of all, it's causing everybody to First of all, it's causing everybody to First of all, it's causing everybody to screw up which is not great. screw up which is not great. screw up which is not great. But it's pushing your ability to juggle But it's pushing your ability to juggle But it's pushing your ability to juggle all of those things as the person who's all of those things as the person who's all of those things as the person who's giving all of the direction and it it giving all of the direction and it it giving all of the direction and it it needs The only resolution for it is a needs The only resolution for it is a needs The only resolution for it is a strong competent leadership team.

strong competent leadership team. strong competent leadership team. And I I'm going to say the second thing And I I'm going to say the second thing And I I'm going to say the second thing that's tough in that's tough in that's tough in the for-profit faith and the for-profit faith and the for-profit faith and cause-based world cause-based world cause-based world which churches are clearly a part. Almost always, Almost always, the group that's called the leadership the group that's called the leadership the group that's called the leadership team in fun cuz there usually is one. It team in fun cuz there usually is one. It team in fun cuz there usually is one. It sort of emerges after years four, five, sort of emerges after years four, five, sort of emerges after years four, five, six, seven, eight, round about there. six, seven, eight, round about there. six, seven, eight, round about there. It isn't It isn't It isn't it's a group of highly competent very it's a group of highly competent very it's a group of highly competent very very very very committed and convicted water carriers, committed and convicted water carriers, committed and convicted water carriers, enablers in the positive sense of the enablers in the positive sense of the enablers in the positive sense of the word. word. word. >> what you told them to do. >> what you told them to do. >> what you told them to do. That and that's that's that's right That and that's that's that's right That and that's that's that's right because that's how we're going to get because that's how we're going to get because that's how we're going to get out of early struggle and make the most out of early struggle and make the most out of early struggle and make the most of our time in fun is one version of our time in fun is one version of our time in fun is one version here's how it goes. here's how it goes. here's how it goes. Not doesn't have to be you know my way Not doesn't have to be you know my way Not doesn't have to be you know my way or the highway but it's look or the highway but it's look or the highway but it's look I'll set I'll set I'll set the milestones the milestones the milestones and let's we say things like let's and let's we say things like let's and let's we say things like let's achieve them together but it's grace achieve them together but it's grace achieve them together but it's grace basically the part of the leadership basically the part of the leadership basically the part of the leadership group group group role to go make those things happen.

role to go make those things happen. role to go make those things happen. To get through white water and build To get through white water and build To get through white water and build a church that can get into and stay in a church that can get into and stay in a church that can get into and stay in predictable success predictable success predictable success you need a leadership team you need a leadership team you need a leadership team who are taking genuinely taking the it's who are taking genuinely taking the it's who are taking genuinely taking the it's sort of like yoke of leadership on. sort of like yoke of leadership on. sort of like yoke of leadership on. They're not there to support you as the They're not there to support you as the They're not there to support you as the leader. leader. leader. That's that's now becomes a subsidiary That's that's now becomes a subsidiary That's that's now becomes a subsidiary part of their job. We're here to be the part of their job. We're here to be the part of their job. We're here to be the leadership. Now does that mean that if leadership. Now does that mean that if leadership. Now does that mean that if you're leadership you're leadership you're leadership >> not just the leader. They're carrying >> not just the leader. They're carrying >> not just the leader. They're carrying the mission forward. And what does that the mission forward. And what does that the mission forward. And what does that mean in practical terms? I mean to cut mean in practical terms? I mean to cut mean in practical terms? I mean to cut it down to the real nitty-gritty and it down to the real nitty-gritty and it down to the real nitty-gritty and this is where the mini celebrity aspect this is where the mini celebrity aspect this is where the mini celebrity aspect becomes highly problematic. becomes highly problematic. becomes highly problematic. It means the development of a of a It means the development of a of a It means the development of a of a healthy challenge function. healthy challenge function. healthy challenge function. That's where the rubber hits the road. That's where the rubber hits the road. That's where the rubber hits the road. Do we have a health a leadership team Do we have a health a leadership team Do we have a health a leadership team who who who actuate healthy challenge function? Is actuate healthy challenge function? Is actuate healthy challenge function? Is there debate? Is there discussion? Are there debate? Is there discussion? Are there debate? Is there discussion? Are we looking to come up with the best we looking to come up with the best we looking to come up with the best solution for the church, the separate solution for the church, the separate solution for the church, the separate entity that is the church? Or are we entity that is the church? Or are we entity that is the church? Or are we doing what doing what doing what the finding pastor wants us to do the finding pastor wants us to do the finding pastor wants us to do because his or her because his or her because his or her desires, wishes, proclamations are have desires, wishes, proclamations are have desires, wishes, proclamations are have always been a proxy for what the church always been a proxy for what the church always been a proxy for what the church wants. Mhm. In white water that starts wants. Mhm. In white water that starts wants. Mhm. In white water that starts to set or has to start to separate out.

to set or has to start to separate out. to set or has to start to separate out. Now this Now this Now this the mini celebrity aspect of stuff I the mini celebrity aspect of stuff I the mini celebrity aspect of stuff I shouldn't say mini it sounds very shouldn't say mini it sounds very shouldn't say mini it sounds very demeaning I don't mean it that way. I'm demeaning I don't mean it that way. I'm demeaning I don't mean it that way. I'm the reason I use that phrase is the reason I use that phrase is the reason I use that phrase is uh I I think I I see I'm not I think I uh I I think I I see I'm not I think I uh I I think I I see I'm not I think I do see a lot of leaders not just in the do see a lot of leaders not just in the do see a lot of leaders not just in the church but everywhere who only think church but everywhere who only think church but everywhere who only think this applies to the really big household this applies to the really big household this applies to the really big household names. names. names. Right. But it doesn't it applies to Right. But it doesn't it applies to Right. But it doesn't it applies to anybody who's anybody who's anybody who's built built built a platform a platform a platform that they can get confused about whether that they can get confused about whether that they can get confused about whether that's their leadership platform or a that's their leadership platform or a that's their leadership platform or a branding tool. branding tool. branding tool. And branding tools aren't bad things And branding tools aren't bad things And branding tools aren't bad things they're just perfectly fine but they're they're just perfectly fine but they're they're just perfectly fine but they're not good leadership platform. And what not good leadership platform. And what not good leadership platform. And what does that mean in absolute practice? It does that mean in absolute practice? It does that mean in absolute practice? It means this. means this. means this. That challenge function struggles very That challenge function struggles very That challenge function struggles very hard to be developed hard to be developed hard to be developed because that era of mini celebrity has because that era of mini celebrity has because that era of mini celebrity has convinced me that it's not just what I convinced me that it's not just what I convinced me that it's not just what I have done it's not just the success that have done it's not just the success that have done it's not just the success that I've had that's important it's how I did I've had that's important it's how I did I've had that's important it's how I did it. it. it. It's how I personify it. It's how I It's how I personify it. It's how I It's how I personify it. It's how I exhibit it.

exhibit it. exhibit it. And therefore I have to have the final And therefore I have to have the final And therefore I have to have the final say in everything or we won't succeed. say in everything or we won't succeed. say in everything or we won't succeed. And the the reality is the bullseye of And the the reality is the bullseye of And the the reality is the bullseye of what cannot change what cannot change what cannot change about how you did things is remarkably about how you did things is remarkably about how you did things is remarkably small. The the amount of things that do small. The the amount of things that do small. The the amount of things that do need to change for a church that's going need to change for a church that's going need to change for a church that's going to get into and stay in predictable to get into and stay in predictable to get into and stay in predictable success about how they did things is success about how they did things is success about how they did things is huge. It's huge. huge. It's huge. huge. It's huge. And I And I And I let me let me add one more lens to this. let me let me add one more lens to this. let me let me add one more lens to this. I I realize I'm doing a fire dump here I I realize I'm doing a fire dump here I I realize I'm doing a fire dump here but let me put an important aspect of but let me put an important aspect of but let me put an important aspect of this this this uh uh uh on the table to consider. on the table to consider. on the table to consider. Um many of our listeners and I know Um many of our listeners and I know Um many of our listeners and I know you'll be very familiar with Jim you'll be very familiar with Jim you'll be very familiar with Jim Collins' work. Oh yeah. Good to great. Collins' work. Oh yeah. Good to great. Collins' work. Oh yeah. Good to great. Built to last. Fantastic stuff. Built to last. Fantastic stuff. Built to last. Fantastic stuff. And Jim talks about And Jim talks about And Jim talks about having the right people in the right having the right people in the right having the right people in the right seats in the bus. seats in the bus. seats in the bus. Right. Right. Right. And here's what occurs during fun. And here's what occurs during fun. And here's what occurs during fun. That happens. Any good leader visionary That happens. Any good leader visionary That happens. Any good leader visionary leader lead pastor finding pastor worth leader lead pastor finding pastor worth leader lead pastor finding pastor worth their salt their salt their salt the church is finding a bit more the church is finding a bit more the church is finding a bit more difficult and they take a bit longer to difficult and they take a bit longer to difficult and they take a bit longer to do it but they'll do it but they'll do it but they'll get people rightly positioned to do the get people rightly positioned to do the get people rightly positioned to do the right things.

That's built on this That's built on this centric model of leadership where centric model of leadership where centric model of leadership where there's one person who's having there's one person who's having there's one person who's having pretty much a series of monologic pretty much a series of monologic pretty much a series of monologic directions with folks, right? directions with folks, right? directions with folks, right? You're going to build a church in You're going to build a church in You're going to build a church in predictable success, 800 people, 1,200 predictable success, 800 people, 1,200 predictable success, 800 people, 1,200 people, 2,000 people. You need a people, 2,000 people. You need a people, 2,000 people. You need a leadership team leadership team leadership team who can carry the load of that who can carry the load of that who can carry the load of that of which you're the first amongst equals of which you're the first amongst equals of which you're the first amongst equals and you're still the senior person but and you're still the senior person but and you're still the senior person but you're moving from what in the you're moving from what in the you're moving from what in the for-profit world would be thought of as for-profit world would be thought of as for-profit world would be thought of as a finder to a CEO. That's the really the a finder to a CEO. That's the really the a finder to a CEO. That's the really the core of the change. All right, here's core of the change. All right, here's core of the change. All right, here's the thing. the thing. the thing. When you take your beautiful bus with When you take your beautiful bus with When you take your beautiful bus with everybody in the right seat and it goes everybody in the right seat and it goes everybody in the right seat and it goes into white water into white water into white water it's like going into it's like going into it's like going into a tunnel or a tunnel or a tunnel or under a bridge. under a bridge. under a bridge. What comes out on the other end? It is What comes out on the other end? It is What comes out on the other end? It is not the same bus. It's not even a bus not the same bus. It's not even a bus not the same bus. It's not even a bus anymore. It's like a drone or something, anymore. It's like a drone or something, anymore. It's like a drone or something, right? right? right? That means that the even the right That means that the even the right That means that the even the right people your best people people your best people people your best people in that seat in that seat in that seat in fun in fun in fun are are statistically unlikely to be the are are statistically unlikely to be the are are statistically unlikely to be the right people here.

right people here. right people here. But we've built so much on managing But we've built so much on managing But we've built so much on managing these relationships and me showing up as these relationships and me showing up as these relationships and me showing up as the one who's right the one who's right the one who's right that instead of allowing that sort of that instead of allowing that sort of that instead of allowing that sort of that metamorphosis to occur that metamorphosis to occur that metamorphosis to occur we still try to run the church the same we still try to run the church the same we still try to run the church the same way as we did in fun. way as we did in fun. way as we did in fun. And if I'm convinced not just that And if I'm convinced not just that And if I'm convinced not just that the things that we did were right and the things that we did were right and the things that we did were right and successful and how we're going to do successful and how we're going to do successful and how we're going to do them them them should be repeated but the way in which should be repeated but the way in which should be repeated but the way in which they're personified has to continue then they're personified has to continue then they're personified has to continue then I'm almost certainly doomed to failure. I'm almost certainly doomed to failure. I'm almost certainly doomed to failure. And and I'm I'm guessing if you ever get And and I'm I'm guessing if you ever get And and I'm I'm guessing if you ever get out of white water well you won't get out of white water well you won't get out of white water well you won't get into predictable success unless you into predictable success unless you into predictable success unless you decouple the visionary role decouple the visionary role decouple the visionary role with the leadership team, right? Like with the leadership team, right? Like with the leadership team, right? Like the vision's got to spread to other the vision's got to spread to other the vision's got to spread to other leaders. leaders. leaders. Um but I'm guessing a lot of this Um but I'm guessing a lot of this Um but I'm guessing a lot of this probably contributes to burnout and probably contributes to burnout and probably contributes to burnout and exhaustion as well, doesn't it? Well exhaustion as well, doesn't it? Well exhaustion as well, doesn't it? Well 100% 100% 100% >> How so Les? >> How so Les? >> How so Les? >> Because >> Because >> Because you know you know you know trying to trying to trying to bring that type of leadership bring that type of leadership bring that type of leadership to bear on every aspect of a complex to bear on every aspect of a complex to bear on every aspect of a complex growing organization growing organization growing organization it it will kill you.

it it will kill you. it it will kill you. And you know one of the And you know one of the And you know one of the there's no greater thing than a there's no greater thing than a there's no greater thing than a scapegoat. It's great to find scapegoats scapegoat. It's great to find scapegoats scapegoat. It's great to find scapegoats helps us process and work with a lot of helps us process and work with a lot of helps us process and work with a lot of stuff. The scapegoat I would stuff. The scapegoat I would stuff. The scapegoat I would put on the slab for this is media put on the slab for this is media put on the slab for this is media because because because you know you know you know now these days I'm looking I'm I'm now these days I'm looking I'm I'm now these days I'm looking I'm I'm computer screen computer screen computer screen back in the days of Wired magazine and back in the days of Wired magazine and back in the days of Wired magazine and uh you know print and all that sort of uh you know print and all that sort of uh you know print and all that sort of stuff whenever stuff whenever stuff whenever you've got to fill column inches you've you've got to fill column inches you've you've got to fill column inches you've got to fill got to fill got to fill an infinite websites with stories and an infinite websites with stories and an infinite websites with stories and they've got to be interesting and you they've got to be interesting and you they've got to be interesting and you know they've got to be know they've got to be know they've got to be you know you know you know heroic and so the myth of the heroic heroic and so the myth of the heroic heroic and so the myth of the heroic business leader business leader business leader the myth of the heroic leader the myth of the heroic leader the myth of the heroic leader it's one of the things that's driving it's one of the things that's driving it's one of the things that's driving this not some often that mini celebrity this not some often that mini celebrity this not some often that mini celebrity thing comes from I'm going to be honest thing comes from I'm going to be honest thing comes from I'm going to be honest it comes from a desire to be seen even it comes from a desire to be seen even it comes from a desire to be seen even in your own mind in your own mind in your own mind >> Oh sure. as a heroic leader.

>> Oh sure. as a heroic leader. >> Oh sure. as a heroic leader. 98% 98% 98% of her of leadership is built on mundane of her of leadership is built on mundane of her of leadership is built on mundane acts. Heroism is great but it's Explain that. Heroism is great but it's Explain that. What do you mean 90% 98% of leadership What do you mean 90% 98% of leadership What do you mean 90% 98% of leadership is based on mundane acts? What is what is based on mundane acts? What is what is based on mundane acts? What is what does that mean Les? Well I mean take on does that mean Les? Well I mean take on does that mean Les? Well I mean take on a just any random example a just any random example a just any random example the one I'll take is uh the one I'll take is uh the one I'll take is uh uh uh uh you'll forgive me you'll forgive me you'll forgive me Carey but I'm going to assume that Carey but I'm going to assume that Carey but I'm going to assume that you're old enough like me to remember you're old enough like me to remember you're old enough like me to remember this. Uh remember Captain Sully landing this. Uh remember Captain Sully landing this. Uh remember Captain Sully landing the plane on the the plane on the the plane on the >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah great movie by >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah great movie by >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah great movie by the way with Tom Hanks. I never got the way with Tom Hanks. I never got the way with Tom Hanks. I never got around to seeing it but I've been told around to seeing it but I've been told around to seeing it but I've been told that it is It's really well done. that it is It's really well done. that it is It's really well done. Well it has a fantastic heroic story. Well it has a fantastic heroic story. Well it has a fantastic heroic story. Thank goodness Thank goodness Thank goodness that's not happening that's not happening that's not happening a thousand times a day, a thousand times a day, a thousand times a day, right? Where [laughter] you got you you right? Where [laughter] you got you you right? Where [laughter] you got you you end up in the Hudson. And nobody's end up in the Hudson. And nobody's end up in the Hudson. And nobody's getting on the plane, right? getting on the plane, right? getting on the plane, right? It's it's great that that happens once It's it's great that that happens once It's it's great that that happens once in a blue moon. in a blue moon. in a blue moon. But does that mean that he's But does that mean that he's But does that mean that he's hasn't been a great leader all of his hasn't been a great leader all of his hasn't been a great leader all of his years? Does it mean that no other years? Does it mean that no other years? Does it mean that no other airline pilot is a great leader?

airline pilot is a great leader? airline pilot is a great leader? That That That the I'm in the one of the professions I the I'm in the one of the professions I the I'm in the one of the professions I most admire. They're wonderful folks most admire. They're wonderful folks most admire. They're wonderful folks most of them and what they're doing is most of them and what they're doing is most of them and what they're doing is mundane stuff every single day. Yeah. Um mundane stuff every single day. Yeah. Um mundane stuff every single day. Yeah. Um you know you know you know in predictable success terms one of the in predictable success terms one of the in predictable success terms one of the things that things that things that people find valuable is the degree of people find valuable is the degree of people find valuable is the degree of shared shared shared vocabulary that it helps people with. vocabulary that it helps people with. vocabulary that it helps people with. And one of the things that's least And one of the things that's least And one of the things that's least staked hands on is just a definition of staked hands on is just a definition of staked hands on is just a definition of what leadership is. what leadership is. what leadership is. I I I I I I the way I put it is leadership is any the way I put it is leadership is any the way I put it is leadership is any act that gets two or more people closer act that gets two or more people closer act that gets two or more people closer to their common goals. Mhm. to their common goals. Mhm. to their common goals. Mhm. If you do something discretionary that If you do something discretionary that If you do something discretionary that you you don't have to to get your you you don't have to to get your you you don't have to to get your paycheck that gets paycheck that gets paycheck that gets two or more people closer to their two or more people closer to their two or more people closer to their common goals that's an act of common goals that's an act of common goals that's an act of leadership. And Sully leadership. And Sully leadership. And Sully did a million things that just led to did a million things that just led to did a million things that just led to the point that when something really the point that when something really the point that when something really horrendous could have happened he horrendous could have happened he horrendous could have happened he avoided it. avoided it. avoided it. Does does did that thing make him a Does does did that thing make him a Does does did that thing make him a great leader? No not in and of itself great leader? No not in and of itself great leader? No not in and of itself and that's not what great leadership is. and that's not what great leadership is. and that's not what great leadership is. Now, come back to the celebrity stuff.

Now, come back to the celebrity stuff. Now, come back to the celebrity stuff. You then get the likes of, you know, You then get the likes of, you know, You then get the likes of, you know, dear sainted Saint Steve of the of Jobs, dear sainted Saint Steve of the of Jobs, dear sainted Saint Steve of the of Jobs, who is a classic example of someone that who is a classic example of someone that who is a classic example of someone that did that thing of knowing did that thing of knowing did that thing of knowing of of being the identity of everything of of being the identity of everything of of being the identity of everything very, very early on. very, very early on. very, very early on. Apple blew up in white water. He got Apple blew up in white water. He got Apple blew up in white water. He got kicked out. kicked out. kicked out. It went It went It went almost straight across into almost straight across into almost straight across into treadmill treadmill treadmill under uh Scully, the Coke guy. under uh Scully, the Coke guy. under uh Scully, the Coke guy. Mhm. Steve Jobs does next, doesn't Mhm. Steve Jobs does next, doesn't Mhm. Steve Jobs does next, doesn't really really really comes back in, and he's worked out how comes back in, and he's worked out how comes back in, and he's worked out how to separate these. Now, does that mean to separate these. Now, does that mean to separate these. Now, does that mean that that that he's not still up front, everybody's he's not still up front, everybody's he's not still up front, everybody's seeing the stories, reading the seeing the stories, reading the seeing the stories, reading the biography, listening to the late-night, biography, listening to the late-night, biography, listening to the late-night, you know, stories of the late-night you know, stories of the late-night you know, stories of the late-night calls and dididi. calls and dididi. calls and dididi. But, what's he been doing behind the But, what's he been doing behind the But, what's he been doing behind the scenes? Building a fantastic team. scenes? Building a fantastic team. scenes? Building a fantastic team. Yeah, Apple is a much bigger company Yeah, Apple is a much bigger company Yeah, Apple is a much bigger company post-Steve Jobs than when he was alive. post-Steve Jobs than when he was alive. post-Steve Jobs than when he was alive. Sure. And it's it's having its issues, Sure. And it's it's having its issues, Sure. And it's it's having its issues, and time will tell whether it's able to and time will tell whether it's able to and time will tell whether it's able to keep keep keep I I talk a a lot and teach a lot about I I talk a a lot and teach a lot about I I talk a a lot and teach a lot about institutionalizing institutionalizing institutionalizing vision, depersonifying it, so that vision, depersonifying it, so that vision, depersonifying it, so that you're not dependent on one person you're not dependent on one person you're not dependent on one person walking out the door. That's still a lot walking out the door. That's still a lot walking out the door. That's still a lot of graphs, but the reality is you watch of graphs, but the reality is you watch of graphs, but the reality is you watch any great leader in a large any great leader in a large any great leader in a large organization. There are great leaders organization. There are great leaders organization. There are great leaders who are just pure all heroics all the who are just pure all heroics all the who are just pure all heroics all the time, right? And they're typically time, right? And they're typically time, right? And they're typically doing one thing, and then they drop it,

doing one thing, and then they drop it, doing one thing, and then they drop it, and you and I know a few of these folks, and you and I know a few of these folks, and you and I know a few of these folks, and then they do another great thing, and then they do another great thing, and then they do another great thing, and it's all meteor showers, and it's and it's all meteor showers, and it's and it's all meteor showers, and it's fantastic, and then they drop it, and fantastic, and then they drop it, and fantastic, and then they drop it, and then they do another thing and all me then they do another thing and all me then they do another thing and all me They're basically I read a new book. I They're basically I read a new book. I They're basically I read a new book. I listened to a new podcast, and this is listened to a new podcast, and this is listened to a new podcast, and this is where we're going. They're they're where we're going. They're they're where we're going. They're they're they're essentially they're essentially they're essentially pulling something through fun, pulling something through fun, pulling something through fun, and then as soon as it has the need for and then as soon as it has the need for and then as soon as it has the need for scale, they're dropping it. And there's scale, they're dropping it. And there's scale, they're dropping it. And there's actually nothing wrong with that. actually nothing wrong with that. actually nothing wrong with that. But, any really successful leader that But, any really successful leader that But, any really successful leader that gets his or her organization, for-profit gets his or her organization, for-profit gets his or her organization, for-profit church, or whatever, into truly into church, or whatever, into truly into church, or whatever, into truly into predictable success with the ability to predictable success with the ability to predictable success with the ability to scale, they can still be the celebrity scale, they can still be the celebrity scale, they can still be the celebrity out front. out front. out front. But, the only way that's working is if But, the only way that's working is if But, the only way that's working is if they're using that as a branding, they're using that as a branding, they're using that as a branding, marketing, selling tool, marketing, selling tool, marketing, selling tool, maybe a bit of a culture icon as well, maybe a bit of a culture icon as well, maybe a bit of a culture icon as well, but you turn the but you turn the but you turn the the camera lens around and look into the the camera lens around and look into the the camera lens around and look into the organization, organization, organization, they are building a strong, healthy they are building a strong, healthy they are building a strong, healthy leadership team, right? Mhm. Mhm. No, I leadership team, right? Mhm. Mhm. No, I leadership team, right? Mhm. Mhm. No, I you know, I want to underscore that. I I you know, I want to underscore that. I I you know, I want to underscore that. I I I I don't think I've told you this, but I I don't think I've told you this, but I I don't think I've told you this, but um, you know, in our multiple um, you know, in our multiple um, you know, in our multiple conversations and reading your books, I conversations and reading your books, I conversations and reading your books, I created this little game in my head that created this little game in my head that created this little game in my head that I play. I play it with myself sometimes, I play. I play it with myself sometimes, I play. I play it with myself sometimes, once in a while if I'm with someone I once in a while if I'm with someone I once in a while if I'm with someone I know well. I'll bring them into the know well. I'll bring them into the know well. I'll bring them into the game, but I get to go to a lot of game, but I get to go to a lot of game, but I get to go to a lot of churches, a lot of organizations, and churches, a lot of organizations, and churches, a lot of organizations, and this works better in businesses because this works better in businesses because this works better in businesses because nine times out of 10 people who know nine times out of 10 people who know nine times out of 10 people who know know who the lead pastor is at a large know who the lead pastor is at a large know who the lead pastor is at a large church, but you know, your your argument church, but you know, your your argument church, but you know, your your argument is that if you're in predictable is that if you're in predictable is that if you're in predictable success, yes, you have a visionary success, yes, you have a visionary success, yes, you have a visionary leader, but it's difficult to spot that leader, but it's difficult to spot that leader, but it's difficult to spot that person around the table. So, I play this person around the table. So, I play this person around the table. So, I play this little game cuz I get to a lot of,

little game cuz I get to a lot of, little game cuz I get to a lot of, fortunately, some very successful fortunately, some very successful fortunately, some very successful companies and very fortunate to be able companies and very fortunate to be able companies and very fortunate to be able to do it. But, I'll play this game like to do it. But, I'll play this game like to do it. But, I'll play this game like spot the CEO or spot the billionaire, spot the CEO or spot the billionaire, spot the CEO or spot the billionaire, and often often they're the most and often often they're the most and often often they're the most unassuming unassuming unassuming people in the room. They're not like up people in the room. They're not like up people in the room. They're not like up there, large and in charge on the there, large and in charge on the there, large and in charge on the whiteboard, you know, all right, whiteboard, you know, all right, whiteboard, you know, all right, everybody, let's go take this hill. everybody, let's go take this hill. everybody, let's go take this hill. They're They're just sitting there, and They're They're just sitting there, and They're They're just sitting there, and they might talk they might talk they might talk for 5% of the meeting. for 5% of the meeting. for 5% of the meeting. And and they might not even do so where And and they might not even do so where And and they might not even do so where everybody, you know, head snapped there. everybody, you know, head snapped there. everybody, you know, head snapped there. There might be somebody who completely There might be somebody who completely There might be somebody who completely disagrees with them disagrees with them disagrees with them 10 seconds later. But, they're cool with 10 seconds later. But, they're cool with 10 seconds later. But, they're cool with that. And I think the church is missing that. And I think the church is missing that. And I think the church is missing that. I think often one of the reasons that. I think often one of the reasons that. I think often one of the reasons Now, you go to I'm I'm going to pick on Now, you go to I'm I'm going to pick on Now, you go to I'm I'm going to pick on someone by name here, someone by name here, someone by name here, Craig Groeschel. I mean, very upfront. I Craig Groeschel. I mean, very upfront. I Craig Groeschel. I mean, very upfront. I don't know, you probably know Craig from don't know, you probably know Craig from don't know, you probably know Craig from the GLS and everything, but very the GLS and everything, but very the GLS and everything, but very upfront, he's on social media like a lot upfront, he's on social media like a lot upfront, he's on social media like a lot of pastors are, but you meet his team, of pastors are, but you meet his team, of pastors are, but you meet his team, it is unbelievable. it is unbelievable. it is unbelievable. And he's responsible for the overall And he's responsible for the overall And he's responsible for the overall thing, but when you look at everything thing, but when you look at everything thing, but when you look at everything that he has delegated and the level of that he has delegated and the level of that he has delegated and the level of authority and agency his team has, authority and agency his team has, authority and agency his team has, it's incredible. So, I I see that as a a it's incredible. So, I I see that as a a it's incredible. So, I I see that as a a great example of that at life in the great example of that at life in the great example of that at life in the church, but do you find that often? And church, but do you find that often? And church, but do you find that often? And I know I got this insight from you, so I know I got this insight from you, so I know I got this insight from you, so I'm asking you a rhetorical question, I'm asking you a rhetorical question, I'm asking you a rhetorical question, but like spot the CEO, spot the but like spot the CEO, spot the but like spot the CEO, spot the billionaire, that can be really billionaire, that can be really billionaire, that can be really difficult to do sometimes because difficult to do sometimes because difficult to do sometimes because they're not that visionary they're not that visionary they're not that visionary yeah, they're talk 90% of the time yeah, they're talk 90% of the time yeah, they're talk 90% of the time person. There was a big

person. There was a big person. There was a big best-seller many years ago called The best-seller many years ago called The best-seller many years ago called The Millionaire Next Door, and Millionaire Next Door, and Millionaire Next Door, and this was back in the day when you know, this was back in the day when you know, this was back in the day when you know, a millionaire was a relatively a millionaire was a relatively a millionaire was a relatively relatively relatively relatively >> yeah. Yeah. Um, and that was the point >> yeah. Yeah. Um, and that was the point >> yeah. Yeah. Um, and that was the point that that that that that that that that that book meant book meant book meant wasn't the main point, but was I wasn't the main point, but was I wasn't the main point, but was I certainly one of the secondary points. certainly one of the secondary points. certainly one of the secondary points. And yes, And yes, And yes, I find that the folks I find that the folks I find that the folks that are running that are running that are running truly successful, large, or complex truly successful, large, or complex truly successful, large, or complex organizations, particularly if they have organizations, particularly if they have organizations, particularly if they have spent time in the fun stage, spent time in the fun stage, spent time in the fun stage, they're very much like what you're they're very much like what you're they're very much like what you're talking about. They they they talking about. They they they talking about. They they they Here's a Here's a Here's a Here's a Here's a Here's a fun part of fun part of fun part of what I still get to do is what I still get to do is what I still get to do is even though I'm I'm a huge uh Teams even though I'm I'm a huge uh Teams even though I'm I'm a huge uh Teams uh uh uh Riverside Zoom fan, I love doing stuff Riverside Zoom fan, I love doing stuff Riverside Zoom fan, I love doing stuff virtually. virtually. virtually. Um, I'm still a person that that people Um, I'm still a person that that people Um, I'm still a person that that people call when they want to do something with call when they want to do something with call when they want to do something with their team together in person. Yeah, I I their team together in person. Yeah, I I their team together in person. Yeah, I I consult. And particularly this time of consult. And particularly this time of consult. And particularly this time of year, year, year, you know, I'm doing leadership and you know, I'm doing leadership and you know, I'm doing leadership and management retreats management retreats management retreats a couple of times a week most weeks a couple of times a week most weeks a couple of times a week most weeks because because because it's built into strategic planning for it's built into strategic planning for it's built into strategic planning for the turn of the year.

the turn of the year. the turn of the year. Sure. Sure. Sure. And I've What I've learned over the And I've What I've learned over the And I've What I've learned over the years is that there are four years is that there are four years is that there are four levels that teams work at that you can levels that teams work at that you can levels that teams work at that you can see within 7 to 8 minutes while spending see within 7 to 8 minutes while spending see within 7 to 8 minutes while spending time with them, and it tells you all time with them, and it tells you all time with them, and it tells you all that you need to know about the that you need to know about the that you need to know about the degree of maturity of development of the degree of maturity of development of the degree of maturity of development of the leadership team. leadership team. leadership team. Now, to be clear, I'm talking about and Now, to be clear, I'm talking about and Now, to be clear, I'm talking about and a lot of what I'm about to say is going a lot of what I'm about to say is going a lot of what I'm about to say is going to sound uh to sound uh to sound uh judgmental, and to an extent that it is, judgmental, and to an extent that it is, judgmental, and to an extent that it is, but that's only if this is a group that but that's only if this is a group that but that's only if this is a group that are trying to stay in predictable are trying to stay in predictable are trying to stay in predictable success. If you're just a small group of success. If you're just a small group of success. If you're just a small group of people in fun, that people in fun, that people in fun, that none of this really is matters that none of this really is matters that none of this really is matters that much. But, I get I get to go in, and I, much. But, I get I get to go in, and I, much. But, I get I get to go in, and I, you know, sometimes I know them well, you know, sometimes I know them well, you know, sometimes I know them well, sometimes I don't know them, but here's sometimes I don't know them, but here's sometimes I don't know them, but here's what happens. what happens. what happens. I'll ask something, and I I'll I'll find I'll ask something, and I I'll I'll find I'll ask something, and I I'll I'll find something deliberately early on that's something deliberately early on that's something deliberately early on that's pretty pretty pretty a you know, a large a you know, a large a you know, a large strategic type of an issue just and I'll strategic type of an issue just and I'll strategic type of an issue just and I'll ask something that might just I'll ask something that might just I'll ask something that might just I'll position it as me needing clarification. position it as me needing clarification. position it as me needing clarification. That's all, cuz I want All I want to do That's all, cuz I want All I want to do That's all, cuz I want All I want to do is see what happens.

is see what happens. is see what happens. Level zero is Level zero is Level zero is everybody just sits there with their everybody just sits there with their everybody just sits there with their eyes down, eyes down, eyes down, and after a moment of something and after a moment of something and after a moment of something awkwardness, a few of those people will awkwardness, a few of those people will awkwardness, a few of those people will will turn, and if you don't know who the will turn, and if you don't know who the will turn, and if you don't know who the leader is, they you they will their eyes leader is, they you they will their eyes leader is, they you they will their eyes will tell you because will tell you because will tell you because they're turning to look at Carrie, see they're turning to look at Carrie, see they're turning to look at Carrie, see what he says, cuz that's where those what he says, cuz that's where those what he says, cuz that's where those sorts of things get said. sorts of things get said. sorts of things get said. So, that's not great, So, that's not great, So, that's not great, but that's typically what we're starting but that's typically what we're starting but that's typically what we're starting with as we begin to shift from a group with as we begin to shift from a group with as we begin to shift from a group of enablers to a true leadership team. of enablers to a true leadership team. of enablers to a true leadership team. So, you've got to start with that, and So, you've got to start with that, and So, you've got to start with that, and you've got to actually manage that you've got to actually manage that you've got to actually manage that process and work at it. You get them to process and work at it. You get them to process and work at it. You get them to level two. level two. level two. Same question. Same question. Same question. Somebody's head comes up, they'll look Somebody's head comes up, they'll look Somebody's head comes up, they'll look straight at me, and they'll give say straight at me, and they'll give say straight at me, and they'll give say something, something, something, and then their head will go back down and then their head will go back down and then their head will go back down again. again. again. And if I ask a follow-up question, And if I ask a follow-up question, And if I ask a follow-up question, somebody might say, oh, you Jenny would somebody might say, oh, you Jenny would somebody might say, oh, you Jenny would know about that. So, I look at Jenny, know about that. So, I look at Jenny, know about that. So, I look at Jenny, Jenny looks at me, gives me the Jenny looks at me, gives me the Jenny looks at me, gives me the information, and then information, and then information, and then The third level is The third level is The third level is and I and level that level I just talked and I and level that level I just talked and I and level that level I just talked about it'll still always end with the about it'll still always end with the about it'll still always end with the look at whoever the senior person in the look at whoever the senior person in the look at whoever the senior person in the room is.

room is. room is. The next level is The next level is The next level is somebody somebody somebody looks up, gives a says something, and looks up, gives a says something, and looks up, gives a says something, and somebody else speaks into it and somebody else speaks into it and somebody else speaks into it and clarifies or adds, and then somebody clarifies or adds, and then somebody clarifies or adds, and then somebody will speak to that, will speak to that, will speak to that, and that'll be the discussion. and that'll be the discussion. and that'll be the discussion. And that's we're now at healthy-ish. And And that's we're now at healthy-ish. And And that's we're now at healthy-ish. And then the truly healthy level is I ask a then the truly healthy level is I ask a then the truly healthy level is I ask a question, question, question, just it goes wherever it needs to go. just it goes wherever it needs to go. just it goes wherever it needs to go. It's like water flowing downhill. It's like water flowing downhill. It's like water flowing downhill. Whoever needs to say does say. I'm Whoever needs to say does say. I'm Whoever needs to say does say. I'm having to shut people up from time to having to shut people up from time to having to shut people up from time to time, and you cannot tell from the time, and you cannot tell from the time, and you cannot tell from the contributions contributions contributions who the most senior leader is. who the most senior leader is. who the most senior leader is. And here's the Here's the thing that And here's the Here's the thing that And here's the Here's the thing that most visionary leaders really, really most visionary leaders really, really most visionary leaders really, really struggle with struggle with struggle with is is is you know, I you know, I you know, I I'm talking about something technical I'm talking about something technical I'm talking about something technical here when I talk about visionary leaders here when I talk about visionary leaders here when I talk about visionary leaders cuz we've got operators, processors, cuz we've got operators, processors, cuz we've got operators, processors, synergists, other leadership styles. synergists, other leadership styles. synergists, other leadership styles. >> I'm talking here about the big picture, >> I'm talking here about the big picture, >> I'm talking here about the big picture, and most senior founding pastors are and most senior founding pastors are and most senior founding pastors are visionary leaders. visionary leaders. visionary leaders. They have two modes of operation, They have two modes of operation, They have two modes of operation, in charge or not here.

in charge or not here. in charge or not here. Yeah, you're right. If I'm not running Yeah, you're right. If I'm not running Yeah, you're right. If I'm not running the whole thing, I'm I'm not even going the whole thing, I'm I'm not even going the whole thing, I'm I'm not even going to go. No. And And so, what happens is to go. No. And And so, what happens is to go. No. And And so, what happens is whenever you whenever you whenever you you know, I you know, I you know, I But, a third of my time is coaching, and But, a third of my time is coaching, and But, a third of my time is coaching, and when I'm coaching a leader and trying to when I'm coaching a leader and trying to when I'm coaching a leader and trying to help them begin to not help them begin to not help them begin to not essentially essentially essentially insist that they know everything, they insist that they know everything, they insist that they know everything, they and every decision comes from them, and every decision comes from them, and every decision comes from them, what they'll do and what they'll do and what they'll do and and all honesty and genuineness I'm from and all honesty and genuineness I'm from and all honesty and genuineness I'm from a good place and a good heart, they'll a good place and a good heart, they'll a good place and a good heart, they'll say, okay, I'm just not coming. I'm not say, okay, I'm just not coming. I'm not say, okay, I'm just not coming. I'm not You have the meeting, I'm not coming. You have the meeting, I'm not coming. You have the meeting, I'm not coming. Cuz if I come, Cuz if I come, Cuz if I come, like, what what then happens? Utter like, what what then happens? Utter like, what what then happens? Utter absolute absolute absolute terrible failure. terrible failure. terrible failure. Because the people you've left in the Because the people you've left in the Because the people you've left in the meeting that you're not coming to, they meeting that you're not coming to, they meeting that you're not coming to, they haven't been developed to do this. You haven't been developed to do this. You haven't been developed to do this. You didn't leave them any decent didn't leave them any decent didn't leave them any decent instructions. They're scared to death instructions. They're scared to death instructions. They're scared to death they're going to get it wrong. They they're going to get it wrong. They they're going to get it wrong. They never did it before. never did it before. never did it before. I told you you end up jumping back in I told you you end up jumping back in I told you you end up jumping back in and making it all happen again. And just and making it all happen again. And just and making it all happen again. And just the ability to learn and it takes time.

the ability to learn and it takes time. the ability to learn and it takes time. This can take 2 years and that's real This can take 2 years and that's real This can take 2 years and that's real that's a long time in church growth that's a long time in church growth that's a long time in church growth to build a muscle of being able to be a to build a muscle of being able to be a to build a muscle of being able to be a team member, to be able to not just team member, to be able to not just team member, to be able to not just either be in charge or not here. either be in charge or not here. either be in charge or not here. I had a guy I had a guy I had a guy um he was he ran a um he was he ran a um he was he ran a a founded and ran a very successful a founded and ran a very successful a founded and ran a very successful business in the telecoms industry. business in the telecoms industry. business in the telecoms industry. And he had a big problem with this. And he had a big problem with this. And he had a big problem with this. And uh he was the founder, the CEO, and And uh he was the founder, the CEO, and And uh he was the founder, the CEO, and he was in charge of like 90 teams. he was in charge of like 90 teams. he was in charge of like 90 teams. He he he had a He he he had a He he he had a Toblerone. You know you know the Toblerone. You know you know the Toblerone. You know you know the Toblerone chocolate bar Toblerone chocolate bar Toblerone chocolate bar >> bar. pyramid. He had one made with CEO >> bar. pyramid. He had one made with CEO >> bar. pyramid. He had one made with CEO on one on one on one founder on the other side and team founder on the other side and team founder on the other side and team member. member. member. And he carried it around with him for And he carried it around with him for And he carried it around with him for over a year. And it wasn't for him. over a year. And it wasn't for him. over a year. And it wasn't for him. It was for the other people in the room. It was for the other people in the room. It was for the other people in the room. And what he would do is he would come And what he would do is he would come And what he would do is he would come down and he would put the default stance down and he would put the default stance down and he would put the default stance and he told everybody about it and they and he told everybody about it and they and he told everybody about it and they all that was a very mature group and all that was a very mature group and all that was a very mature group and they could do this sort of thing. And he they could do this sort of thing. And he they could do this sort of thing. And he said look there I'm just he blamed it on said look there I'm just he blamed it on said look there I'm just he blamed it on me which was fine. Les was trying to me which was fine. Les was trying to me which was fine. Les was trying to coach me through coach me through coach me through not just be either being here in charge not just be either being here in charge not just be either being here in charge or not being here. So I'm going to come or not being here. So I'm going to come or not being here. So I'm going to come in and I'm going to I'm going to adopt in and I'm going to I'm going to adopt in and I'm going to I'm going to adopt my role and I'm going to try to do team my role and I'm going to try to do team my role and I'm going to try to do team member member member as the default as much as possible. And as the default as much as possible. And as the default as much as possible. And I'll put the Toblerone down there.

I'll put the Toblerone down there. I'll put the Toblerone down there. And they had the right to reach over and And they had the right to reach over and And they had the right to reach over and turn it. turn it. turn it. Whatever he was moving. So right now Whatever he was moving. So right now Whatever he was moving. So right now you're a team member. Right now I'm a you're a team member. Right now I'm a you're a team member. Right now I'm a team member and I'm contributing and team member and I'm contributing and team member and I'm contributing and then I'm my my leg's starting to jump up then I'm my my leg's starting to jump up then I'm my my leg's starting to jump up and down because that's not how we do and down because that's not how we do and down because that's not how we do this. No, no, don't make that decision. this. No, no, don't make that decision. this. No, no, don't make that decision. Don't make that Okay, look. Don't make that Okay, look. Don't make that Okay, look. We're not going to do it that way. Well, We're not going to do it that way. Well, We're not going to do it that way. Well, somebody would reach over and turn somebody would reach over and turn somebody would reach over and turn to founder cuz that was the founder to founder cuz that was the founder to founder cuz that was the founder voice. Now like I say it's a mature voice. Now like I say it's a mature voice. Now like I say it's a mature thing to do and they were a mature group thing to do and they were a mature group thing to do and they were a mature group and they were able to do it. But that's and they were able to do it. But that's and they were able to do it. But that's really what we're trying to talk about. really what we're trying to talk about. really what we're trying to talk about. Now Now Now if you're getting a lot of your if you're getting a lot of your if you're getting a lot of your north star from a leadership point of north star from a leadership point of north star from a leadership point of view view view through the celebrity branding type of through the celebrity branding type of through the celebrity branding type of profile profile profile that you're not hearing an awful lot of that you're not hearing an awful lot of that you're not hearing an awful lot of that. You know that. You know that. You know >> No, you're not getting pushed back. >> No, you're not getting pushed back. >> No, you're not getting pushed back. >> You're the star of your own movie. And >> You're the star of your own movie. And >> You're the star of your own movie. And and that I mean that's and that I mean that's and that I mean that's you know, if there was one you know, if there was one you know, if there was one sort of aha for me that that you know, sort of aha for me that that you know, sort of aha for me that that you know, this is this is problematic this is this is problematic this is this is problematic it's that increasingly in the last I'd it's that increasingly in the last I'd it's that increasingly in the last I'd give it 4 to 6 years. Really when give it 4 to 6 years. Really when give it 4 to 6 years. Really when reality TV picked a lot a number of reality TV picked a lot a number of reality TV picked a lot a number of years ago.

years ago. years ago. I began to nobody ever used this phrase I began to nobody ever used this phrase I began to nobody ever used this phrase to me but what people I began to hear to me but what people I began to hear to me but what people I began to hear from folks not from the leaders but from from folks not from the leaders but from from folks not from the leaders but from their team their team their team was a sense that they were was a sense that they were was a sense that they were extras in this guy's movie. extras in this guy's movie. extras in this guy's movie. Yeah, they were extras. Yeah. And his Yeah, they were extras. Yeah. And his Yeah, they were extras. Yeah. And his you know, you know, you know, this thing is this is it's the this thing is this is it's the this thing is this is it's the you know the my auto parts manufacturing you know the my auto parts manufacturing you know the my auto parts manufacturing company that that's the lot the film company that that's the lot the film company that that's the lot the film lot, right? And lot, right? And lot, right? And I'm I'm here. Now there's not I I'm I'm here. Now there's not I I'm I'm here. Now there's not I that sounds like I'm saying this is a that sounds like I'm saying this is a that sounds like I'm saying this is a terrible thing. There's nothing wrong terrible thing. There's nothing wrong terrible thing. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to do that, start with that. If you want to do that, start with that. If you want to do that, start your business, start your church, get your business, start your church, get your business, start your church, get the funds, stay there, all right? And the funds, stay there, all right? And the funds, stay there, all right? And and do that, you know, and direct the and do that, you know, and direct the and do that, you know, and direct the thing like you're and make it brilliant. thing like you're and make it brilliant. thing like you're and make it brilliant. Make it a wonderful movie. But if you Make it a wonderful movie. But if you Make it a wonderful movie. But if you want to get to predictable success, want to get to predictable success, want to get to predictable success, that's not going to happen. that's not going to happen. that's not going to happen. And real leaders don't want to be an And real leaders don't want to be an And real leaders don't want to be an extra in someone else's movie. No. extra in someone else's movie. No. extra in someone else's movie. No. >> As a general rule, they don't. Correct. >> As a general rule, they don't. Correct. >> As a general rule, they don't. Correct. >> Les, this is so helpful and so >> Les, this is so helpful and so >> Les, this is so helpful and so illuminating. So I want to go back to illuminating. So I want to go back to illuminating. So I want to go back to the mini celebrity pastor who's maybe in the mini celebrity pastor who's maybe in the mini celebrity pastor who's maybe in the fun stage, right? Like things are the fun stage, right? Like things are the fun stage, right? Like things are things are going well, there's more things are going well, there's more things are going well, there's more people every month, more people every people every month, more people every people every month, more people every year, church is growing, has the funds year, church is growing, has the funds year, church is growing, has the funds to operate. And I think one of the one to operate. And I think one of the one to operate. And I think one of the one of the challenges, I mean, you know, for of the challenges, I mean, you know, for of the challenges, I mean, you know, for a long time you were the person who had a long time you were the person who had a long time you were the person who had the command of the room. Like who else the command of the room. Like who else the command of the room. Like who else gets 40 minutes on a Sunday morning once gets 40 minutes on a Sunday morning once gets 40 minutes on a Sunday morning once a week a week a week to talk and everybody's quiet, right? So to talk and everybody's quiet, right? So to talk and everybody's quiet, right? So there that does something to your head

there that does something to your head there that does something to your head as well. Um but now with social media, as well. Um but now with social media, as well. Um but now with social media, you're the person featured in all the you're the person featured in all the you're the person featured in all the clips. You're the person who um is clips. You're the person who um is clips. You're the person who um is directing the content, the vision, the directing the content, the vision, the directing the content, the vision, the mission. We kind of see the downside of that now We kind of see the downside of that now if people have been tuning in. How do if people have been tuning in. How do if people have been tuning in. How do you start to disentangle yourself from you start to disentangle yourself from you start to disentangle yourself from that when you're still going to be the that when you're still going to be the that when you're still going to be the person on social media? You're still person on social media? You're still person on social media? You're still going to be the face with the place as going to be the face with the place as going to be the face with the place as we sometimes say. we sometimes say. we sometimes say. Like how do you make sure that your Like how do you make sure that your Like how do you make sure that your church has an identity that is separate church has an identity that is separate church has an identity that is separate from the founder? There are a couple of from the founder? There are a couple of from the founder? There are a couple of very specific things that need to start very specific things that need to start very specific things that need to start going down instead of going up and I'll going down instead of going up and I'll going down instead of going up and I'll I'll go through them one at a time. I'll go through them one at a time. I'll go through them one at a time. The The The The first one is the footprint of your The first one is the footprint of your The first one is the footprint of your curse of knowledge. curse of knowledge. curse of knowledge. Cuz that's Cuz that's Cuz that's really a large part of what we're really a large part of what we're really a large part of what we're talking about is this isn't all about talking about is this isn't all about talking about is this isn't all about ego and desire and you know, wanting to ego and desire and you know, wanting to ego and desire and you know, wanting to be the man in the big picture as my be the man in the big picture as my be the man in the big picture as my mother used to say that was the was the mother used to say that was the was the mother used to say that was the was the worst thing she could ever say about worst thing she could ever say about worst thing she could ever say about somebody was he always wants to be the somebody was he always wants to be the somebody was he always wants to be the man in the big picture. Um man in the big picture. Um man in the big picture. Um And we've all of we all of that we're And we've all of we all of that we're And we've all of we all of that we're humans we're egos. And this humans we're egos. And this humans we're egos. And this a lot of this isn't actually driven by a lot of this isn't actually driven by a lot of this isn't actually driven by that. A lot of it's driven by the curse that. A lot of it's driven by the curse that. A lot of it's driven by the curse of knowledge. I was the one who did it.

of knowledge. I was the one who did it. of knowledge. I was the one who did it. I and I know best and I how to do it. I and I know best and I how to do it. I and I know best and I how to do it. I've done my 10,000 hours. I don't only I've done my 10,000 hours. I don't only I've done my 10,000 hours. I don't only I don't only I not only know how to do I don't only I not only know how to do I don't only I not only know how to do it, I know how to do it really really it, I know how to do it really really it, I know how to do it really really well. So well. So well. So it's going to take forever to show it's going to take forever to show it's going to take forever to show somebody else. I mean literally forever somebody else. I mean literally forever somebody else. I mean literally forever and even then they're not going to do it and even then they're not going to do it and even then they're not going to do it that good. that good. that good. And you know, the only And you know, the only And you know, the only real response to that and I and I get it real response to that and I and I get it real response to that and I and I get it and I understand it and I face it myself and I understand it and I face it myself and I understand it and I face it myself in my own world. The only real response in my own world. The only real response in my own world. The only real response is is is well, how's that working out for you? well, how's that working out for you? well, how's that working out for you? You know, You know, You know, just don't do that. You you can't make just don't do that. You you can't make just don't do that. You you can't make it an it an it an non-negotiable. non-negotiable. non-negotiable. You can't turn it into a zero-sum game You can't turn it into a zero-sum game You can't turn it into a zero-sum game because it's not. If it is a zero-sum because it's not. If it is a zero-sum because it's not. If it is a zero-sum game, we're all doomed. We're not none game, we're all doomed. We're not none game, we're all doomed. We're not none of us are going to grow our church, of us are going to grow our church, of us are going to grow our church, right? You're just making right? You're just making right? You're just making you're the trade-off that you're you're the trade-off that you're you're the trade-off that you're choosing, you're choosing the trade-off choosing, you're choosing the trade-off choosing, you're choosing the trade-off that means you don't have to put the that means you don't have to put the that means you don't have to put the time and work into training somebody, time and work into training somebody, time and work into training somebody, into helping somebody do it.

into helping somebody do it. into helping somebody do it. And by the way, in terms of baby steps, And by the way, in terms of baby steps, And by the way, in terms of baby steps, just making a start just making a start just making a start is ask whoever knows you best in the is ask whoever knows you best in the is ask whoever knows you best in the church leadership. church leadership. church leadership. Actually maybe I Actually maybe I Actually maybe I I suppose a close friend might be able I suppose a close friend might be able I suppose a close friend might be able to help you with this as well. to help you with this as well. to help you with this as well. To just tell you 10 things that To just tell you 10 things that To just tell you 10 things that you could just stop doing right now and you could just stop doing right now and you could just stop doing right now and >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> not only would nothing go badly wrong, >> not only would nothing go badly wrong, >> not only would nothing go badly wrong, that would go better and people would be that would go better and people would be that would go better and people would be happier. And let me tell you something. happier. And let me tell you something. happier. And let me tell you something. I assure you their problem will be I assure you their problem will be I assure you their problem will be stopping at 10. stopping at 10. stopping at 10. All right? All right? All right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So No, you're right because just to >> So No, you're right because just to >> So No, you're right because just to underscore that for a minute, Les. Like underscore that for a minute, Les. Like underscore that for a minute, Les. Like if you're the founder or if you're doing if you're the founder or if you're doing if you're the founder or if you're doing what I did originally where which is, what I did originally where which is, what I did originally where which is, you know, revitalizing churches, you do you know, revitalizing churches, you do you know, revitalizing churches, you do know pretty much everything about how know pretty much everything about how know pretty much everything about how everything is done because you brought everything is done because you brought everything is done because you brought in the new musicians, you redesigned the in the new musicians, you redesigned the in the new musicians, you redesigned the services, you started from scratch, you services, you started from scratch, you services, you started from scratch, you you you know how the toilets are cleaned you you know how the toilets are cleaned you you know how the toilets are cleaned and where the chairs are stacked, right? and where the chairs are stacked, right? and where the chairs are stacked, right? Like you know you know, everything. And Like you know you know, everything. And Like you know you know, everything. And so you're saying so you're saying so you're saying at some point you're going to have to at some point you're going to have to at some point you're going to have to start dropping that stuff and letting start dropping that stuff and letting start dropping that stuff and letting other qualified leaders not only do what other qualified leaders not only do what other qualified leaders not only do what you used to do but take responsibility you used to do but take responsibility you used to do but take responsibility for that ministry and be responsible for for that ministry and be responsible for for that ministry and be responsible for idea generation and execution and all of idea generation and execution and all of idea generation and execution and all of that.

that. that. Correct. Yeah. And you know, there's an Correct. Yeah. And you know, there's an Correct. Yeah. And you know, there's an interesting interesting interesting um um um other side of the coin here other side of the coin here other side of the coin here that the very same people and this I'm that the very same people and this I'm that the very same people and this I'm saying this in a way that makes me sound saying this in a way that makes me sound saying this in a way that makes me sound like like like um everybody should just have this and I um everybody should just have this and I um everybody should just have this and I I've got it and I've got it and I've got it and you know, why are people so dumb? And you know, why are people so dumb? And you know, why are people so dumb? And that's not the case. I struggle with all that's not the case. I struggle with all that's not the case. I struggle with all of this as well. I just have the of this as well. I just have the of this as well. I just have the the privilege of pattern recognition the privilege of pattern recognition the privilege of pattern recognition because I've been doing this for so because I've been doing this for so because I've been doing this for so long. long. long. The very same folks The very same folks The very same folks who who who cursed for whichever reason the curse of cursed for whichever reason the curse of cursed for whichever reason the curse of knowledge knowledge knowledge and who therefore do everything and who therefore do everything and who therefore do everything also same people who either can only be also same people who either can only be also same people who either can only be there there there in charge or not there in charge or not there in charge or not there they're the very same folks who you'll they're the very same folks who you'll they're the very same folks who you'll hear saying over and over again hear saying over and over again hear saying over and over again why can't they just think like me? why can't they just think like me? why can't they just think like me? Why can't they think like me? In Why can't they think like me? In Why can't they think like me? In for-profit world this is why can't they for-profit world this is why can't they for-profit world this is why can't they why don't you think like a founder? Why why don't you think like a founder? Why why don't you think like a founder? Why you know, why can't you think like an you know, why can't you think like an you know, why can't you think like an owner?

owner? owner? The church is mercifully exempt that The church is mercifully exempt that The church is mercifully exempt that because it doesn't have that direct because it doesn't have that direct because it doesn't have that direct correlation that it does in for profit. correlation that it does in for profit. correlation that it does in for profit. And when I hear that my And when I hear that my And when I hear that my you think about the way you're working you think about the way you're working you think about the way you're working with these people. You've given them with these people. You've given them with these people. You've given them zero chance of thinking like you because zero chance of thinking like you because zero chance of thinking like you because you think like you and then tell people you think like you and then tell people you think like you and then tell people what to do. Where where's the space what to do. Where where's the space what to do. Where where's the space where they got to think like you? Well, where they got to think like you? Well, where they got to think like you? Well, they don't get to do that because I know they don't get to do that because I know they don't get to do that because I know every time I give them a thing to do every time I give them a thing to do every time I give them a thing to do they don't get it. Well, you've given they don't get it. Well, you've given they don't get it. Well, you've given this big thing to do and just this big thing to do and just this big thing to do and just disappeared because you can't bear to disappeared because you can't bear to disappeared because you can't bear to sit in the room and help them. sit in the room and help them. sit in the room and help them. There's There's There's there's a very there's a very there's a very straightforward layer of interaction straightforward layer of interaction straightforward layer of interaction that it sort of always forget what this that it sort of always forget what this that it sort of always forget what this is. I don't have it in my knee. Whatever is. I don't have it in my knee. Whatever is. I don't have it in my knee. Whatever that fluid is that allows your um that fluid is that allows your um that fluid is that allows your um uh uh uh joints to move. No. The lack of the joints to move. No. The lack of the joints to move. No. The lack of the fluid will populate the comments cuz I fluid will populate the comments cuz I fluid will populate the comments cuz I don't know either but I know what you don't know either but I know what you don't know either but I know what you mean The the loss of it is leads towards mean The the loss of it is leads towards mean The the loss of it is leads towards arthritis. Now I have that in my right arthritis. Now I have that in my right arthritis. Now I have that in my right knee.

knee. knee. Um I don't have this lubricating fluid. Um I don't have this lubricating fluid. Um I don't have this lubricating fluid. The thing that that that the sort of The thing that that that the sort of The thing that that that the sort of magic fluid in here is the ability to magic fluid in here is the ability to magic fluid in here is the ability to mentor and coach. mentor and coach. mentor and coach. Right? Right? Right? >> Yeah. And moving into that mode as >> Yeah. And moving into that mode as >> Yeah. And moving into that mode as opposed to either I do it and I get it opposed to either I do it and I get it opposed to either I do it and I get it right or I delegate it to you and get right or I delegate it to you and get right or I delegate it to you and get offside and you get it wrong. Is it offside and you get it wrong. Is it offside and you get it wrong. Is it synovial fluid? synovial fluid? synovial fluid? I don't know. I'm quick to Google. Okay, I don't know. I'm quick to Google. Okay, I don't know. I'm quick to Google. Okay, I don't know. The comments will correct I don't know. The comments will correct I don't know. The comments will correct it. We're going to be told in no it. We're going to be told in no it. We're going to be told in no uncertain terms. uncertain terms. uncertain terms. Uh, but there there there'll be some Uh, but there there there'll be some Uh, but there there there'll be some fancy medical word for it. Um fancy medical word for it. Um fancy medical word for it. Um the the the the the the the the the the thing that bridges that the thing that bridges that the thing that bridges that movement from I've only got two styles movement from I've only got two styles movement from I've only got two styles styles of styles of styles of interacting here either in charge or not interacting here either in charge or not interacting here either in charge or not here here here towards being able to not need the towards being able to not need the towards being able to not need the Toblerone and show up and just be who Toblerone and show up and just be who Toblerone and show up and just be who you need to be in a group at any one you need to be in a group at any one you need to be in a group at any one point in time is developing the ability point in time is developing the ability point in time is developing the ability to mentor and coach in a to mentor and coach in a to mentor and coach in a consequence-free consequence-free consequence-free way. Not saying you just let people get way. Not saying you just let people get way. Not saying you just let people get things wrong, but give people an things wrong, but give people an things wrong, but give people an environment to environment to environment to Let me finish finish my sentence. Give Let me finish finish my sentence. Give Let me finish finish my sentence. Give people an environment where they can people an environment where they can people an environment where they can learn from you. And that's that's the learn from you. And that's that's the learn from you. And that's that's the bit that bit that bit that is really really difficult to do, which is really really difficult to do, which is really really difficult to do, which is to say, "Okay, I'm not going to is to say, "Okay, I'm not going to is to say, "Okay, I'm not going to dictate to you how to do this."

dictate to you how to do this." dictate to you how to do this." And I'm not going to say just you do it. And I'm not going to say just you do it. And I'm not going to say just you do it. I'm going to say So, you know, Christmas I'm going to say So, you know, Christmas I'm going to say So, you know, Christmas is coming up. is coming up. is coming up. I've always planned to the nth degree I've always planned to the nth degree I've always planned to the nth degree the Christmas party. I'm taking a the Christmas party. I'm taking a the Christmas party. I'm taking a trivial example here. And it's always trivial example here. And it's always trivial example here. And it's always been fantastic. We are renowned for my been fantastic. We are renowned for my been fantastic. We are renowned for my Christmas party. This is silly. I should Christmas party. This is silly. I should Christmas party. This is silly. I should not be doing this. I'm not going to do not be doing this. I'm not going to do not be doing this. I'm not going to do it. it. it. Carrie, you do it. Carrie, you do it. Carrie, you do it. Okay. Never mind Never mind the Okay. Never mind Never mind the Okay. Never mind Never mind the Christmas party. Of course, now we're a Christmas party. Of course, now we're a Christmas party. Of course, now we're a relatively large-sized church. There's relatively large-sized church. There's relatively large-sized church. There's 350 of us. 350 of us. 350 of us. And I've got to do this from scratch. So, I'm going to mess it up. And you, So, I'm going to mess it up. And you, Carrie, are going to mess it up in this Carrie, are going to mess it up in this Carrie, are going to mess it up in this example. So, I'm going to end up jumping example. So, I'm going to end up jumping example. So, I'm going to end up jumping in and fixing it at the last minute. I'm in and fixing it at the last minute. I'm in and fixing it at the last minute. I'm going to be upset with myself. going to be upset with myself. going to be upset with myself. Be frustrated with myself. Be frustrated with myself. Be frustrated with myself. Instead of saying Well, look. Instead of saying Well, look. Instead of saying Well, look. I want you to do it. Why don't you do I want you to do it. Why don't you do I want you to do it. Why don't you do this? Just go off. this? Just go off. this? Just go off. Take a few days. Come back and tell me Take a few days. Come back and tell me Take a few days. Come back and tell me what the theme is that you're going to what the theme is that you're going to what the theme is that you're going to go with. And couple of other suggestions go with. And couple of other suggestions go with. And couple of other suggestions that you thought about. And I'll I'll that you thought about. And I'll I'll that you thought about. And I'll I'll work through in my mind and communicate work through in my mind and communicate work through in my mind and communicate with you with you with you what I'd be thinking about that and how what I'd be thinking about that and how what I'd be thinking about that and how I might I might I might plan the next step. And then come back a plan the next step. And then come back a plan the next step. And then come back a week after that and show me the plan.

week after that and show me the plan. week after that and show me the plan. Right? That you've worked out. And use Right? That you've worked out. And use Right? That you've worked out. And use me as a resource. Help me help you. me as a resource. Help me help you. me as a resource. Help me help you. Rather than Rather than Rather than you're going to do it and you're going you're going to do it and you're going you're going to do it and you're going to do it really well, aren't you? The to do it really well, aren't you? The to do it really well, aren't you? The answer is answer is answer is That makes a lot of sense. When you That makes a lot of sense. When you That makes a lot of sense. When you think about disentangling think about disentangling think about disentangling the brand and the communicator. the brand and the communicator. the brand and the communicator. What does that look like? What does that look like? What does that look like? I think I I don't know uh I think I I don't know uh I think I I don't know uh uh Craig Rochelle uh Craig Rochelle uh Craig Rochelle uh at all, uh at all, uh at all, but I've as you have I know you do know but I've as you have I know you do know but I've as you have I know you do know him well, but I've seen him many many him well, but I've seen him many many him well, but I've seen him many many times. And times. And times. And from what I do know of his folks and from what I do know of his folks and from what I do know of his folks and the way in which he operates the way in which he operates the way in which he operates you summarized it yourself pretty well. you summarized it yourself pretty well. you summarized it yourself pretty well. It means It means It means that if you had a real skill for it and that if you had a real skill for it and that if you had a real skill for it and a love for it and you want to keep doing a love for it and you want to keep doing a love for it and you want to keep doing it, do that. But see it as a job. See it it, do that. But see it as a job. See it it, do that. But see it as a job. See it as part of what I'm here to do for the as part of what I'm here to do for the as part of what I'm here to do for the church, not for me. church, not for me. church, not for me. Right? Right? Right? Boom, you just nailed it. For the Boom, you just nailed it. For the Boom, you just nailed it. For the church, not for me. Right. Does that church, not for me. Right. Does that church, not for me. Right. Does that mean you can have you kind of a side gig mean you can have you kind of a side gig mean you can have you kind of a side gig that's yours? Of course, you can. Like that's yours? Of course, you can. Like that's yours? Of course, you can. Like we all do things I mean like you could we all do things I mean like you could we all do things I mean like you could play pickleball just for you. You can do play pickleball just for you. You can do play pickleball just for you. You can do social media just for you. But if your social media just for you. But if your social media just for you. But if your main gig has been main gig has been main gig has been social media, you know, print, whatever social media, you know, print, whatever social media, you know, print, whatever it may be it may be it may be for the church, keep and you're good at for the church, keep and you're good at for the church, keep and you're good at it. For goodness sake, don't not do it.

it. For goodness sake, don't not do it. it. For goodness sake, don't not do it. Keep doing it, but do it for the church. Keep doing it, but do it for the church. Keep doing it, but do it for the church. Don't do it for you. And don't confuse Don't do it for you. And don't confuse Don't do it for you. And don't confuse it. In fact, as much as possible it. In fact, as much as possible it. In fact, as much as possible just assume that anything that you think just assume that anything that you think just assume that anything that you think is is is a leadership principle in that arena a leadership principle in that arena a leadership principle in that arena stress test it like crazy cuz it almost stress test it like crazy cuz it almost stress test it like crazy cuz it almost certainly isn't going to hold up certainly isn't going to hold up certainly isn't going to hold up in your leadership of in your leadership of in your leadership of of the leadership team in the church. of the leadership team in the church. of the leadership team in the church. Because Because Because I need to I need to I need to pull apart a little bit what I just pull apart a little bit what I just pull apart a little bit what I just said. said. said. >> Sure. One of the most important >> Sure. One of the most important >> Sure. One of the most important mind shifts getting through whitewater mind shifts getting through whitewater mind shifts getting through whitewater is really about and uh dear listeners, is really about and uh dear listeners, is really about and uh dear listeners, not viewers, I've got my not viewers, I've got my not viewers, I've got my four fingers pointing to my temples. four fingers pointing to my temples. four fingers pointing to my temples. The biggest single shift is in the four The biggest single shift is in the four The biggest single shift is in the four inches inches inches between the ears of the founder. That's between the ears of the founder. That's between the ears of the founder. That's That's That's what the majority of the That's That's what the majority of the That's That's what the majority of the shift is. And one of them is this. shift is. And one of them is this. shift is. And one of them is this. An absolutely an early struggle and An absolutely an early struggle and An absolutely an early struggle and by far in the majority of the cases in by far in the majority of the cases in by far in the majority of the cases in fun fun fun you're the person that ultimately fixes you're the person that ultimately fixes you're the person that ultimately fixes and decide decides and fixes, right?

and decide decides and fixes, right? and decide decides and fixes, right? Problem comes up. Problem comes up. Problem comes up. You know, it escalates. You know, it escalates. You know, it escalates. Like through a chimney. And you have to Like through a chimney. And you have to Like through a chimney. And you have to Solomonically Solomonically Solomonically fix things or decide things. Your job fix things or decide things. Your job fix things or decide things. Your job the moment you make the decision that the moment you make the decision that the moment you make the decision that we're going to push through whitewater, we're going to push through whitewater, we're going to push through whitewater, going to build the systems and processes going to build the systems and processes going to build the systems and processes to manage this complexity, going to get to manage this complexity, going to get to manage this complexity, going to get into predictable success. Your job is to into predictable success. Your job is to into predictable success. Your job is to build the team that decides and fixes build the team that decides and fixes build the team that decides and fixes things. things. things. Your job is no longer to decide and fix Your job is no longer to decide and fix Your job is no longer to decide and fix things. Your job is to build the team things. Your job is to build the team things. Your job is to build the team that decides and fixes things. that decides and fixes things. that decides and fixes things. >> Yeah. In fact, >> Yeah. In fact, >> Yeah. In fact, ultimately the through line is you're ultimately the through line is you're ultimately the through line is you're going to eventually become the leader of going to eventually become the leader of going to eventually become the leader of a team who builds teams a team who builds teams a team who builds teams that decide and fix things. That's where that decide and fix things. That's where that decide and fix things. That's where you're going to get to eventually, but you're going to get to eventually, but you're going to get to eventually, but you got to do it in steps. But that you got to do it in steps. But that you got to do it in steps. But that transition from I'm everything comes transition from I'm everything comes transition from I'm everything comes through me somehow or other to no, I my through me somehow or other to no, I my through me somehow or other to no, I my job is to build the team that everything job is to build the team that everything job is to build the team that everything goes through according to, you know, goes through according to, you know, goes through according to, you know, some guidelines. Don't just everything some guidelines. Don't just everything some guidelines. Don't just everything gets thrown people willy-nilly. And that gets thrown people willy-nilly. And that gets thrown people willy-nilly. And that means you've got to be means you've got to be means you've got to be begin to develop mentoring and coaching begin to develop mentoring and coaching begin to develop mentoring and coaching skills if you haven't got them. You've skills if you haven't got them. You've skills if you haven't got them. You've got to begin to push away the curse of got to begin to push away the curse of got to begin to push away the curse of knowledge and give that to other people.

knowledge and give that to other people. knowledge and give that to other people. And And And every every every decision you have between do I spend an decision you have between do I spend an decision you have between do I spend an hour doing this thing or do I spend an hour doing this thing or do I spend an hour doing this thing or do I spend an hour investing in somebody so they can hour investing in somebody so they can hour investing in somebody so they can do the thing, it's a no-brainer. Yeah. do the thing, it's a no-brainer. Yeah. do the thing, it's a no-brainer. Yeah. Les, what do you do cuz we talked about Les, what do you do cuz we talked about Les, what do you do cuz we talked about everything so far through the senior everything so far through the senior everything so far through the senior leader um line of vision. leader um line of vision. leader um line of vision. There's a lot of people listening who There's a lot of people listening who There's a lot of people listening who are not the senior leader and they've are not the senior leader and they've are not the senior leader and they've got that mini celebrity pastor who got that mini celebrity pastor who got that mini celebrity pastor who really enjoys really enjoys really enjoys uh leadership, who's sort of the I'm all uh leadership, who's sort of the I'm all uh leadership, who's sort of the I'm all in or I'm gone. I'm either here or I'm in or I'm gone. I'm either here or I'm in or I'm gone. I'm either here or I'm gone. I'm running things or I've I'm I'm gone. I'm running things or I've I'm I'm gone. I'm running things or I've I'm I'm out leader. And we hear from them all out leader. And we hear from them all out leader. And we hear from them all the time. What advice do you have for the time. What advice do you have for the time. What advice do you have for those listening those listening those listening who realize that, "Oh my gosh, the who realize that, "Oh my gosh, the who realize that, "Oh my gosh, the senior leader is just that person who senior leader is just that person who senior leader is just that person who wants to do everything. The whole thing wants to do everything. The whole thing wants to do everything. The whole thing revolves around him or her." Um what's revolves around him or her." Um what's revolves around him or her." Um what's your advice for those leaders? your advice for those leaders? your advice for those leaders? It's First of all, to know what you It's First of all, to know what you It's First of all, to know what you feel about that and how it aligns with feel about that and how it aligns with feel about that and how it aligns with what you want. If there are many many what you want. If there are many many what you want. If there are many many people I had a I had the wonderful guy.

people I had a I had the wonderful guy. people I had a I had the wonderful guy. I mean I don't know I don't know if I mean I don't know I don't know if I mean I don't know I don't know if there's a there's a there's a a chance that a chance that a chance that Ian could be listening to this, but Ian, Ian could be listening to this, but Ian, Ian could be listening to this, but Ian, if you are, you're going to recognize if you are, you're going to recognize if you are, you're going to recognize yourself immediately. I had a guy I yourself immediately. I had a guy I yourself immediately. I had a guy I worked with for worked with for worked with for must have been almost 15 years must have been almost 15 years must have been almost 15 years um when I was doing a lot of the stuff um when I was doing a lot of the stuff um when I was doing a lot of the stuff that was in fun. that was in fun. that was in fun. And he loved the job of basically being And he loved the job of basically being And he loved the job of basically being my chief of staff. Mhm. Which was, you my chief of staff. Mhm. Which was, you my chief of staff. Mhm. Which was, you know, to to just a block and tackle know, to to just a block and tackle know, to to just a block and tackle everything possible to let me do that, everything possible to let me do that, everything possible to let me do that, right? So that I could get right? So that I could get right? So that I could get as much joy out of being king in my own as much joy out of being king in my own as much joy out of being king in my own world as possible. And if you're like world as possible. And if you're like world as possible. And if you're like that, you know, if if the stuff that that, you know, if if the stuff that that, you know, if if the stuff that that your uh lead pastor is that your uh lead pastor is that your uh lead pastor is throwing off because, you know, they're throwing off because, you know, they're throwing off because, you know, they're they've got a particular set of things they've got a particular set of things they've got a particular set of things that they want to focus on and other that they want to focus on and other that they want to focus on and other things need done. And you love doing things need done. And you love doing things need done. And you love doing those other things. This could be a those other things. This could be a those other things. This could be a marriage made in heaven. So, it's not marriage made in heaven. So, it's not marriage made in heaven. So, it's not it's not necessarily difficult. Where it's not necessarily difficult. Where it's not necessarily difficult. Where it's problematic is if either of the two it's problematic is if either of the two it's problematic is if either of the two sets of expectations sets of expectations sets of expectations are not being met. And so I are not being met. And so I are not being met. And so I get to spend a lot of time with second get to spend a lot of time with second get to spend a lot of time with second chairs. And I realize you're talking chairs. And I realize you're talking chairs. And I realize you're talking about beyond just that, but it's most about beyond just that, but it's most about beyond just that, but it's most obvious in this position, you know, the obvious in this position, you know, the obvious in this position, you know, the uh XP or whatever you want to call it, uh XP or whatever you want to call it, uh XP or whatever you want to call it, that role.

that role. that role. If you have If you have If you have somebody in the second chair somebody in the second chair somebody in the second chair who really wants to help a leader who really wants to help a leader who really wants to help a leader build an organization in predictable build an organization in predictable build an organization in predictable success and you've got that dominant success and you've got that dominant success and you've got that dominant visionary leader who's doing all of the visionary leader who's doing all of the visionary leader who's doing all of the things to keep us in fun, you're things to keep us in fun, you're things to keep us in fun, you're eventually going to get incredibly eventually going to get incredibly eventually going to get incredibly frustrated. I mean there's just there's frustrated. I mean there's just there's frustrated. I mean there's just there's there's no way around that. And you'll there's no way around that. And you'll there's no way around that. And you'll have to at some point either accept it have to at some point either accept it have to at some point either accept it and change, you know, where you're going and change, you know, where you're going and change, you know, where you're going to get your joy from or say, "Well, that to get your joy from or say, "Well, that to get your joy from or say, "Well, that this is not the right role for me and this is not the right role for me and this is not the right role for me and maybe I'll go do it somewhere else." Um maybe I'll go do it somewhere else." Um maybe I'll go do it somewhere else." Um If on the other hand you have a leader If on the other hand you have a leader If on the other hand you have a leader who is successfully making that who is successfully making that who is successfully making that transition and you're the equivalent of transition and you're the equivalent of transition and you're the equivalent of what my Ian was, you're going to get what my Ian was, you're going to get what my Ian was, you're going to get left behind. left behind. left behind. I I because you're you're going to end I I because you're you're going to end I I because you're you're going to end up and I see this quite a lot up and I see this quite a lot up and I see this quite a lot that that that uh a lead pastor will have a group of uh a lead pastor will have a group of uh a lead pastor will have a group of people who are quotes in a leadership people who are quotes in a leadership people who are quotes in a leadership position, but it's never nobody was ever position, but it's never nobody was ever position, but it's never nobody was ever given the title. It sort of emerged. It given the title. It sort of emerged. It given the title. It sort of emerged. It was sort of like a crust that grew was sort of like a crust that grew was sort of like a crust that grew around a group of folks. And it was as around a group of folks. And it was as around a group of folks. And it was as much to do with willingness and showing much to do with willingness and showing much to do with willingness and showing up and being there with competence that up and being there with competence that up and being there with competence that got you there. And now we need to get got you there. And now we need to get got you there. And now we need to get into predictable success and I as the into predictable success and I as the into predictable success and I as the lead pastor am making those changes lead pastor am making those changes lead pastor am making those changes behaviorally.

behaviorally. behaviorally. And other people just don't they don't And other people just don't they don't And other people just don't they don't have it they don't have it. have it they don't have it. have it they don't have it. >> to be extras in a movie. Right. I >> to be extras in a movie. Right. I >> to be extras in a movie. Right. I thought well thought well thought well also there's some people who are just also there's some people who are just also there's some people who are just really good at doing block and tackling really good at doing block and tackling really good at doing block and tackling and neither the leadership thing is and neither the leadership thing is and neither the leadership thing is getting serious and we got to put a getting serious and we got to put a getting serious and we got to put a capital L there and it is a you got to capital L there and it is a you got to capital L there and it is a you got to lift some leadership. It's just not what lift some leadership. It's just not what lift some leadership. It's just not what they want to do, right? It's not they want to do, right? It's not they want to do, right? It's not but it's really tough and in the church but it's really tough and in the church but it's really tough and in the church is harder than anywhere is harder than anywhere is harder than anywhere to say to say to say because you wouldn't say this, but this because you wouldn't say this, but this because you wouldn't say this, but this role is role is role is outgrown you completely outgrown you. outgrown you completely outgrown you. outgrown you completely outgrown you. You don't you you don't have the skill You don't you you don't have the skill You don't you you don't have the skill set that I need. That's where set that I need. That's where set that I need. That's where that needed to be the church that needed to be the church that needed to be the church with its own voice so to speak with its own voice so to speak with its own voice so to speak that's that's becoming clear. that's that's becoming clear. that's that's becoming clear. You know, forgive me here because I'm You know, forgive me here because I'm You know, forgive me here because I'm going to geek out on something that's going to geek out on something that's going to geek out on something that's really important, but it's going to put really important, but it's going to put really important, but it's going to put I'm going to guarantee you when you look I'm going to guarantee you when you look I'm going to guarantee you when you look at your leadership at your leadership at your leadership your listenership everybody's going to your listenership everybody's going to your listenership everybody's going to fall fast asleep here. fall fast asleep here. fall fast asleep here. You know what the first thing is I get You know what the first thing is I get You know what the first thing is I get people to work on whenever people to work on whenever people to work on whenever they're deep in white water and we go they're deep in white water and we go they're deep in white water and we go and they're committed and they want to and they're committed and they want to and they're committed and they want to get get get to predictable success. I no clue.

to predictable success. I no clue. to predictable success. I no clue. What's the first thing I'm going to work What's the first thing I'm going to work What's the first thing I'm going to work on everybody thinks I'm going to say you on everybody thinks I'm going to say you on everybody thinks I'm going to say you know, it's a big leadership thing or know, it's a big leadership thing or know, it's a big leadership thing or it's a org chart. it's a org chart. it's a org chart. It's the org chart. It's the org chart. It's the org chart. Because what I say to them is Because what I say to them is Because what I say to them is you've got to step back and say what is you've got to step back and say what is you've got to step back and say what is this church require from a lead pastor, this church require from a lead pastor, this church require from a lead pastor, a worship pastor, an admin pastor, got a worship pastor, an admin pastor, got a worship pastor, an admin pastor, got to find it. What does the church need to find it. What does the church need to find it. What does the church need not what do you want? What is the church not what do you want? What is the church not what do you want? What is the church need? What is the church saying? Please, need? What is the church saying? Please, need? What is the church saying? Please, I need an admin pastor that does this. I I need an admin pastor that does this. I I need an admin pastor that does this. I need a missions pastor that does this. need a missions pastor that does this. need a missions pastor that does this. Need a worship pastor that does this. Need a worship pastor that does this. Need a worship pastor that does this. And then you've got to step back and And then you've got to step back and And then you've got to step back and say, okay, now let's let's adultly say, okay, now let's let's adultly say, okay, now let's let's adultly maturely look at the current incumbents maturely look at the current incumbents maturely look at the current incumbents and say and say and say where do we go from here? where do we go from here? where do we go from here? Oh, she's not going to run into the Oh, she's not going to run into the Oh, she's not going to run into the park. Fantastic. park. Fantastic. park. Fantastic. She's doing good job. She's doing good job. She's doing good job. He's doing okay. Couple of areas need to He's doing okay. Couple of areas need to He's doing okay. Couple of areas need to work on. Let's let's find some coaching work on. Let's let's find some coaching work on. Let's let's find some coaching some help. some help. some help. Jim is not ever going to really be Jim is not ever going to really be Jim is not ever going to really be the sort of missions pastor that we need the sort of missions pastor that we need the sort of missions pastor that we need because and why? Because here's the because and why? Because here's the because and why? Because here's the church has said, we've sat down and church has said, we've sat down and church has said, we've sat down and worked it out.

worked it out. worked it out. >> Here's the church needs. Yeah. Yeah, >> Here's the church needs. Yeah. Yeah, >> Here's the church needs. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. So start with the org chart. So start with the org chart. So start with the org chart. Interesting. Start with the org chart Interesting. Start with the org chart Interesting. Start with the org chart and and and the job descriptions which are the two the job descriptions which are the two the job descriptions which are the two very rightly maligned much maligned. Oh very rightly maligned much maligned. Oh very rightly maligned much maligned. Oh my goodness, are you kidding me? And let my goodness, are you kidding me? And let my goodness, are you kidding me? And let me be clear. me be clear. me be clear. I get the fun of I get the fun of I get the fun of meeting up with I don't work a lot in meeting up with I don't work a lot in meeting up with I don't work a lot in the fun area anymore these days. the fun area anymore these days. the fun area anymore these days. But I get the But I get the But I get the delight of still having a lot of friends delight of still having a lot of friends delight of still having a lot of friends who are in fun. who are in fun. who are in fun. That's the last thing you want to look That's the last thing you want to look That's the last thing you want to look at in fun. It'll kill you, right? It'll at in fun. It'll kill you, right? It'll at in fun. It'll kill you, right? It'll just kill you. And it's one of those just kill you. And it's one of those just kill you. And it's one of those things that's not important. things that's not important. things that's not important. Um Ernest Hemingway the author, forgive Um Ernest Hemingway the author, forgive Um Ernest Hemingway the author, forgive me for jumping around. Ernest Hemingway me for jumping around. Ernest Hemingway me for jumping around. Ernest Hemingway the author the author the author was asked about was asked about was asked about going bankrupt which was an experience going bankrupt which was an experience going bankrupt which was an experience that he had in that he had in that he had in somebody asked him, what was it like? somebody asked him, what was it like? somebody asked him, what was it like? How did it happen? He said very slowly How did it happen? He said very slowly How did it happen? He said very slowly then all at once. then all at once. then all at once. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And the importance of the org chart and >> And the importance of the org chart and >> And the importance of the org chart and good job descriptions is completely good job descriptions is completely good job descriptions is completely unimportant until it is.

unimportant until it is. unimportant until it is. And it's a huge thing and it's part of And it's a huge thing and it's part of And it's a huge thing and it's part of that ability to begin to separate the that ability to begin to separate the that ability to begin to separate the voice because most leadership structures voice because most leadership structures voice because most leadership structures are rightly in the fun stage based on are rightly in the fun stage based on are rightly in the fun stage based on what I call heads. It's people. what I call heads. It's people. what I call heads. It's people. It's what does a worship pastor do here? It's what does a worship pastor do here? It's what does a worship pastor do here? Ask Jimmy. You know, it's whatever Jimmy Ask Jimmy. You know, it's whatever Jimmy Ask Jimmy. You know, it's whatever Jimmy does, right? That's it. Jimmy's the does, right? That's it. Jimmy's the does, right? That's it. Jimmy's the worship partner so that's what happened. worship partner so that's what happened. worship partner so that's what happened. Part of Part of Part of getting into and staying in predictable getting into and staying in predictable getting into and staying in predictable success is to move from a heads based success is to move from a heads based success is to move from a heads based organization to a hats based organization to a hats based organization to a hats based organization. organization. organization. What are the hats that need to be worn, What are the hats that need to be worn, What are the hats that need to be worn, right? We I mean think about it. A right? We I mean think about it. A right? We I mean think about it. A church is the is the um bedrock of this church is the is the um bedrock of this church is the is the um bedrock of this It's all about steward leadership, It's all about steward leadership, It's all about steward leadership, right? Moving into steward leadership. right? Moving into steward leadership. right? Moving into steward leadership. I'm here to steward this role. I'm here to steward this role. I'm here to steward this role. Yeah, you're not going to be there Yeah, you're not going to be there Yeah, you're not going to be there forever. forever. forever. And and not only not only you're not And and not only not only you're not And and not only not only you're not going to be there forever, but also and going to be there forever, but also and going to be there forever, but also and this is the hard thing, unlike in fun this is the hard thing, unlike in fun this is the hard thing, unlike in fun where it is right and good where it is right and good where it is right and good nor are you the personification of that nor are you the personification of that nor are you the personification of that role.

role. role. If if as I do do, I go into an If if as I do do, I go into an If if as I do do, I go into an organization in predictable success organization in predictable success organization in predictable success and I meet people, I want to meet a and I meet people, I want to meet a and I meet people, I want to meet a leadership team who absolutely leadership team who absolutely leadership team who absolutely wow me with being really really good. wow me with being really really good. wow me with being really really good. But when and it happens a lot in tech But when and it happens a lot in tech But when and it happens a lot in tech for for for reasons that are similar in the church reasons that are similar in the church reasons that are similar in the church that we would probably don't have time that we would probably don't have time that we would probably don't have time to go into it. If I meet somebody who as to go into it. If I meet somebody who as to go into it. If I meet somebody who as far as everybody in the organization is far as everybody in the organization is far as everybody in the organization is concerned concerned concerned they're indispensable they're indispensable they're indispensable then we have a problem. then we have a problem. then we have a problem. That's not a predictable success That's not a predictable success That's not a predictable success organization. If one person personifies organization. If one person personifies organization. If one person personifies a role a role a role you don't have predictable success. you don't have predictable success. you don't have predictable success. You've got a temporary you're you're You've got a temporary you're you're You've got a temporary you're you're living temporarily in that state. Right, living temporarily in that state. Right, living temporarily in that state. Right, because you don't have the systems to because you don't have the systems to because you don't have the systems to support it. Correct. And predictable support it. Correct. And predictable support it. Correct. And predictable success my my working definition and I'm success my my working definition and I'm success my my working definition and I'm talking to the guy who who coined it so talking to the guy who who coined it so talking to the guy who who coined it so correct me is it's the tension between correct me is it's the tension between correct me is it's the tension between entrepreneurial zeal and systems that entrepreneurial zeal and systems that entrepreneurial zeal and systems that sustain it, right? And how it scales. So sustain it, right? And how it scales. So sustain it, right? And how it scales. So it's that you're you're not a bureaucrat it's that you're you're not a bureaucrat it's that you're you're not a bureaucrat where it's sort of like just fill out where it's sort of like just fill out where it's sort of like just fill out the paperwork. Right? But you're not the paperwork. Right? But you're not the paperwork. Right? But you're not this like pure vision pure vision pure this like pure vision pure vision pure this like pure vision pure vision pure vision no systems. Correct. If you're if vision no systems. Correct. If you're if vision no systems. Correct. If you're if you're you've got too much of either too you're you've got too much of either too you're you've got too much of either too much systems you're on the decline side much systems you're on the decline side much systems you're on the decline side you're going to you're going to you're going to and and if you're constantly just coming and and if you're constantly just coming and and if you're constantly just coming in and ripping up the playbook every in and ripping up the playbook every in and ripping up the playbook every Monday morning, you're going to go back Monday morning, you're going to go back Monday morning, you're going to go back to fun. Be fun.

to fun. Be fun. to fun. Be fun. That is fun. But you're you're That is fun. But you're you're That is fun. But you're you're constantly ripping everything up to see constantly ripping everything up to see constantly ripping everything up to see whether the roots have grown no haven't whether the roots have grown no haven't whether the roots have grown no haven't let's do something else. And it's about let's do something else. And it's about let's do something else. And it's about getting that a balance right and getting that a balance right and getting that a balance right and the way I I like to the way I I like to the way I I like to um talk about it is um talk about it is um talk about it is if you think about if you think about if you think about what you're trying to build as a what you're trying to build as a what you're trying to build as a multi-story building like you know, multi-story building like you know, multi-story building like you know, apartment block or something. apartment block or something. apartment block or something. In fun we're growing by In fun we're growing by In fun we're growing by running running running up the stairwell, right? Mhm. It's from up the stairwell, right? Mhm. It's from up the stairwell, right? Mhm. It's from visionary leader visionary leader visionary leader bangs open the fire door and says, COME bangs open the fire door and says, COME bangs open the fire door and says, COME ON BOYS AND WE ALL RUN. ON BOYS AND WE ALL RUN. ON BOYS AND WE ALL RUN. Running up the stairs. Second floor up Running up the stairs. Second floor up Running up the stairs. Second floor up to the third floor. And oh shoot, I left to the third floor. And oh shoot, I left to the third floor. And oh shoot, I left my wallet down there. I got to come back my wallet down there. I got to come back my wallet down there. I got to come back down again. down again. down again. What we do in white water is we build What we do in white water is we build What we do in white water is we build the the the elevator. elevator. elevator. We build the elevator. We put the We build the elevator. We put the We build the elevator. We put the systems and processes in place. So we systems and processes in place. So we systems and processes in place. So we want to go to the 14th floor, we go in, want to go to the 14th floor, we go in, want to go to the 14th floor, we go in, we press the button, we go to the 14th we press the button, we go to the 14th we press the button, we go to the 14th floor. Now that's a gross floor. Now that's a gross floor. Now that's a gross oversimplification. Sure, sure. But oversimplification. Sure, sure. But oversimplification. Sure, sure. But there's something so heroic about there's something so heroic about there's something so heroic about running up and down running up and down running up and down stairwell. Um and stairwell. Um and stairwell. Um and it it it there's just so much there's a it it it there's just so much there's a it it it there's just so much there's a such a such a such a huge behavioral shift needs to happen huge behavioral shift needs to happen huge behavioral shift needs to happen to prevent you as the visionary leader to prevent you as the visionary leader to prevent you as the visionary leader from when things get tough from when things get tough from when things get tough just going back to Marshall Goldsmith's just going back to Marshall Goldsmith's just going back to Marshall Goldsmith's what got you there what got you there what got you there right? And say, okay, we've got to go

right? And say, okay, we've got to go right? And say, okay, we've got to go back and start doing it the way we did back and start doing it the way we did back and start doing it the way we did in fun before. Why can't it just be like in fun before. Why can't it just be like in fun before. Why can't it just be like that, right? that, right? that, right? You asked me a question a while back I You asked me a question a while back I You asked me a question a while back I just want to there was one point of it just want to there was one point of it just want to there was one point of it we didn't uh finish off which is we didn't uh finish off which is we didn't uh finish off which is the warning signs and I was talking the warning signs and I was talking the warning signs and I was talking about things that need to start going up about things that need to start going up about things that need to start going up that Yeah. usually are going down. that Yeah. usually are going down. that Yeah. usually are going down. One of them One of them One of them one of the most important ones is one of the most important ones is one of the most important ones is the the footprint of stuff that's not the the footprint of stuff that's not the the footprint of stuff that's not really talkable about with you. really talkable about with you. really talkable about with you. Oh. The stuff that we just could you Oh. The stuff that we just could you Oh. The stuff that we just could you know, you you'll you'll have talked to know, you you'll you'll have talked to know, you you'll you'll have talked to leaders in churches who aren't the lead leaders in churches who aren't the lead leaders in churches who aren't the lead pastor and you talk about trying to do pastor and you talk about trying to do pastor and you talk about trying to do something or trying to uh wait Yeah, we something or trying to uh wait Yeah, we something or trying to uh wait Yeah, we can't talk to Oh, you know, he he can't talk to Oh, you know, he he can't talk to Oh, you know, he he wouldn't he wouldn't she wouldn't talk wouldn't he wouldn't she wouldn't talk wouldn't he wouldn't she wouldn't talk about that. Wouldn't even wouldn't about that. Wouldn't even wouldn't about that. Wouldn't even wouldn't wouldn't even have a conversation. wouldn't even have a conversation. wouldn't even have a conversation. That That That that needs to start to contract. The that needs to start to contract. The that needs to start to contract. The footprint I'm not saying that you don't footprint I'm not saying that you don't footprint I'm not saying that you don't have non-negotiables and you don't make have non-negotiables and you don't make have non-negotiables and you don't make clear where the guardrails are.

clear where the guardrails are. clear where the guardrails are. But it's got to be conscious and it's But it's got to be conscious and it's But it's got to be conscious and it's got to be justifiable. got to be justifiable. got to be justifiable. Got to be right but don't assume that Got to be right but don't assume that Got to be right but don't assume that you're going to get it right. And you you're going to get it right. And you you're going to get it right. And you can't just have it be the footprint of can't just have it be the footprint of can't just have it be the footprint of your personal preferences. your personal preferences. your personal preferences. And that's the thing that we find very And that's the thing that we find very And that's the thing that we find very hard to separate is what am I saying hard to separate is what am I saying hard to separate is what am I saying we're not going to talk about that that we're not going to talk about that that we're not going to talk about that that we're only saying that because I'm we're only saying that because I'm we're only saying that because I'm fearful that if we talk about it it'll fearful that if we talk about it it'll fearful that if we talk about it it'll be done differently than the way I would be done differently than the way I would be done differently than the way I would want it to be done. So that's one of the want it to be done. So that's one of the want it to be done. So that's one of the things that should should be being things that should should be being things that should should be being reduced. But again, if you're reduced. But again, if you're reduced. But again, if you're I've been doing a lot by building this I've been doing a lot by building this I've been doing a lot by building this you know, a branding platform, you're you know, a branding platform, you're you know, a branding platform, you're used to expansiveness, right? To used to expansiveness, right? To used to expansiveness, right? To you know, you suggest we'll do something you know, you suggest we'll do something you know, you suggest we'll do something we go do it. we go do it. we go do it. The thing that I I when I see it happen The thing that I I when I see it happen The thing that I I when I see it happen I think you've got a gift there is I think you've got a gift there is I think you've got a gift there is I've said about it before. When I see I've said about it before. When I see I've said about it before. When I see somebody whether it's a CEO or a lead somebody whether it's a CEO or a lead somebody whether it's a CEO or a lead pastor or founding pastor or a founder pastor or founding pastor or a founder pastor or founding pastor or a founder in a in a in a for-profit for-profit for-profit and I know from experience of working and I know from experience of working and I know from experience of working with their team with their team with their team that at least one in three of the that at least one in three of the that at least one in three of the suggestions somebody's just going to say suggestions somebody's just going to say suggestions somebody's just going to say no.

no. no. Then I know they've got to a healthy Then I know they've got to a healthy Then I know they've got to a healthy place, right? Just a fact that somebody place, right? Just a fact that somebody place, right? Just a fact that somebody said what whether the person that says said what whether the person that says said what whether the person that says no is right or not no is right or not no is right or not the fact that they've got to that place the fact that they've got to that place the fact that they've got to that place >> no to the senior leader. >> no to the senior leader. >> no to the senior leader. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. Wow. Unless you know, just this is sort Wow. Unless you know, just this is sort Wow. Unless you know, just this is sort of an extra motivation question and if of an extra motivation question and if of an extra motivation question and if there's not a good answer to this then there's not a good answer to this then there's not a good answer to this then then that's fair, but you hinted at it a then that's fair, but you hinted at it a then that's fair, but you hinted at it a couple of times. couple of times. couple of times. You know, you think about the seven You know, you think about the seven You know, you think about the seven stages, right? So you start at early stages, right? So you start at early stages, right? So you start at early struggle, you get to fun, you get to struggle, you get to fun, you get to struggle, you get to fun, you get to white water, predictable success and white water, predictable success and white water, predictable success and then treadmill and big rut and death then treadmill and big rut and death then treadmill and big rut and death rattle. rattle. rattle. Majority of organizations, I think as Majority of organizations, I think as Majority of organizations, I think as you've surveyed them, are on the other you've surveyed them, are on the other you've surveyed them, are on the other side of growth. They're in treadmill or side of growth. They're in treadmill or side of growth. They're in treadmill or so. so. so. But for the for the churches that are But for the for the churches that are But for the for the churches that are um um um growing, on the growth side, are there growing, on the growth side, are there growing, on the growth side, are there size limits you're going to get to as a size limits you're going to get to as a size limits you're going to get to as a general rule? Like in other words, if general rule? Like in other words, if general rule? Like in other words, if you really want to break the 500 you really want to break the 500 you really want to break the 500 barrier, the thousand barrier, the mega barrier, the thousand barrier, the mega barrier, the thousand barrier, the mega church barrier of 2,000, church barrier of 2,000, church barrier of 2,000, you've got to get to, you've got to get to, you've got to get to, you know, out of whitewater and into you know, out of whitewater and into you know, out of whitewater and into predictable success. Are there predictable success. Are there predictable success. Are there particular sizes, attendance-wise, particular sizes, attendance-wise, particular sizes, attendance-wise, that are attached or limited to the that are attached or limited to the that are attached or limited to the certain stages of your model?

certain stages of your model? certain stages of your model? Um Um Um I'm going to I'm going to say no in a I'm going to I'm going to say no in a I'm going to I'm going to say no in a in a strange way. If you'll allow me a in a strange way. If you'll allow me a in a strange way. If you'll allow me a moment or two to moment or two to moment or two to uh break out why I'm why I uh break out why I'm why I uh break out why I'm why I say no. say no. say no. The tenant size does bring complexity. The tenant size does bring complexity. The tenant size does bring complexity. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But and you you But and you you But and you you all of you out there, please don't hit all of you out there, please don't hit all of you out there, please don't hit on me for the way I'm about to put this. on me for the way I'm about to put this. on me for the way I'm about to put this. Your congregation Your congregation Your congregation is in the terms that we're talking about is in the terms that we're talking about is in the terms that we're talking about here, which is growth, organizational here, which is growth, organizational here, which is growth, organizational growth. They're more like a customer growth. They're more like a customer growth. They're more like a customer base for a for-profit organization base for a for-profit organization base for a for-profit organization than an integral part of the than an integral part of the than an integral part of the organization. Now, they are, clearly, organization. Now, they are, clearly, organization. Now, they are, clearly, cuz they're the congregation of the cuz they're the congregation of the cuz they're the congregation of the church. Just like a customer is a church. Just like a customer is a church. Just like a customer is a customer of the thing. But from an customer of the thing. But from an customer of the thing. But from an organizational from the management of organizational from the management of organizational from the management of complexity point of view, the complexity complexity point of view, the complexity complexity point of view, the complexity really comes from the really comes from the really comes from the employee group employee group employee group that you're having to manage to manage that you're having to manage to manage that you're having to manage to manage the size of the church.

the size of the church. the size of the church. It's true. Does that make sense? Yeah, It's true. Does that make sense? Yeah, It's true. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. it does. it does. >> So, >> So, >> So, what that means is that the the top what that means is that the the top what that means is that the the top the church attendance is sort of like the church attendance is sort of like the church attendance is sort of like the top line figure and the employee the top line figure and the employee the top line figure and the employee group is like your net. Um and some group is like your net. Um and some group is like your net. Um and some groups of people can and depends how you groups of people can and depends how you groups of people can and depends how you you host your services and depends on you host your services and depends on you host your services and depends on the mechanics of your location. You've the mechanics of your location. You've the mechanics of your location. You've got an owned facility different from if got an owned facility different from if got an owned facility different from if you're renting and all that sort of you're renting and all that sort of you're renting and all that sort of stuff. stuff. stuff. But what's But what's But what's much less variable is the complexity much less variable is the complexity much less variable is the complexity that's caused by the size of your that's caused by the size of your that's caused by the size of your employee group. And by the time you get employee group. And by the time you get employee group. And by the time you get to 20 full-time employees, to 20 full-time employees, to 20 full-time employees, there's no way you're not going to start there's no way you're not going to start there's no way you're not going to start having those issues. having those issues. having those issues. Uh Uh Uh You're going to hit whitewater. You're You're going to hit whitewater. You're You're going to hit whitewater. You're going to going to going to >> to start and going to Now, again, >> to start and going to Now, again, >> to start and going to Now, again, [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] how intense it gets and what number it how intense it gets and what number it how intense it gets and what number it gets to before it becomes problematic, gets to before it becomes problematic, gets to before it becomes problematic, to the extent that you've really got to to the extent that you've really got to to the extent that you've really got to fix it, will vary from group to group. fix it, will vary from group to group. fix it, will vary from group to group. But by by 20 full-time employees, you're But by by 20 full-time employees, you're But by by 20 full-time employees, you're going to start getting the ripples and going to start getting the ripples and going to start getting the ripples and probably by the time you're 35 or 40, probably by the time you're 35 or 40, probably by the time you're 35 or 40, the ripples are going to be going like the ripples are going to be going like the ripples are going to be going like this. Wow.

this. Wow. this. Wow. >> Does that make sense? Okay. So So, it's >> Does that make sense? Okay. So So, it's >> Does that make sense? Okay. So So, it's more related to team staff size than it more related to team staff size than it more related to team staff size than it is is is congregation congregation congregation >> quite sure there is a subsequent >> quite sure there is a subsequent >> quite sure there is a subsequent correlation then to correlation then to correlation then to >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. >> congregation size. But there are just so >> congregation size. But there are just so >> congregation size. But there are just so many things that you could do that would many things that you could do that would many things that you could do that would enable you to manage that top number in enable you to manage that top number in enable you to manage that top number in a way that wouldn't necessarily affect a way that wouldn't necessarily affect a way that wouldn't necessarily affect the complexity of what you have in here, the complexity of what you have in here, the complexity of what you have in here, right? right? right? Like if you're renting, you start out Like if you're renting, you start out Like if you're renting, you start out like like like my my my first church plant just first church plant just first church plant just renting a school building that renting a school building that renting a school building that was otherwise not being used. was otherwise not being used. was otherwise not being used. And it happens to be a very large And it happens to be a very large And it happens to be a very large building that you were able you know, building that you were able you know, building that you were able you know, you we we put like sign you we we put like sign you we we put like sign sheets up and just six of us counted in sheets up and just six of us counted in sheets up and just six of us counted in one corner. But we could get to a really one corner. But we could get to a really one corner. But we could get to a really really quite large size before we really quite large size before we really quite large size before we started having to make major internal started having to make major internal started having to make major internal decisions about how to manage that decisions about how to manage that decisions about how to manage that growth, right? growth, right? growth, right? But the people that's necessary to But the people that's necessary to But the people that's necessary to manage it immediately jumped as soon as manage it immediately jumped as soon as manage it immediately jumped as soon as we moved to our own building. Uh cuz now we moved to our own building. Uh cuz now we moved to our own building. Uh cuz now we've got to do all of the facilities we've got to do all of the facilities we've got to do all of the facilities management. We've got to do all of the management. We've got to do all of the management. We've got to do all of the da da da da da da.

da da da da da da. da da da da da da. Hm. Does that make sense? It does. This Hm. Does that make sense? It does. This Hm. Does that make sense? It does. This has been so helpful. This is why I love has been so helpful. This is why I love has been so helpful. This is why I love these conversations with you, man. Les, these conversations with you, man. Les, these conversations with you, man. Les, is there anything we haven't talked is there anything we haven't talked is there anything we haven't talked about today that you think is important about today that you think is important about today that you think is important to this conversation? to this conversation? to this conversation? Oh, millions of things. Oh, millions of things. Oh, millions of things. Yeah, [laughter] I know. Yeah, [laughter] I know. Yeah, [laughter] I know. I know we could I know we could I know we could talk for 4 hours. talk for 4 hours. talk for 4 hours. I I think the the only one that I I think the the only one that I I think the the only one that the only aspect of it that uh we haven't the only aspect of it that uh we haven't the only aspect of it that uh we haven't gone anywhere near and I'm almost gone anywhere near and I'm almost gone anywhere near and I'm almost hesitant to bring up cuz it's it's hesitant to bring up cuz it's it's hesitant to bring up cuz it's it's absolutely absolutely absolutely >> Oh, that's all right. >> Oh, that's all right. >> Oh, that's all right. >> It's it's outside my pay grade cuz I can >> It's it's outside my pay grade cuz I can >> It's it's outside my pay grade cuz I can only point it out as a as an issue and only point it out as a as an issue and only point it out as a as an issue and leave it to other people. leave it to other people. leave it to other people. It's It's It's You'll understand what I said. Way back at the top of the call, I I Way back at the top of the call, I I said this pattern happens in all organizations and pattern happens in all organizations and for various reasons, I see a lot for various reasons, I see a lot for various reasons, I see a lot particularly in um tech particularly in um tech particularly in um tech and fintech. and fintech. and fintech. Um Um Um where it becomes really amplified in the where it becomes really amplified in the where it becomes really amplified in the church church church is when you bring God into it, which is is when you bring God into it, which is is when you bring God into it, which is hard to do or not to do [laughter] when hard to do or not to do [laughter] when hard to do or not to do [laughter] when you're in a church, Yeah. I'm glad you you're in a church, Yeah. I'm glad you you're in a church, Yeah. I'm glad you went there, right? Oh, went there, right? Oh, went there, right? Oh, man.

man. man. >> when you have the hard-driving founder >> when you have the hard-driving founder >> when you have the hard-driving founder who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy who also gets to say, "Well, the Holy Spirit told me." Spirit told me." Spirit told me." That's, you know, it's just in a in a That's, you know, it's just in a in a That's, you know, it's just in a in a totally totally totally for-profit for-profit for-profit environment where none of the leaders environment where none of the leaders environment where none of the leaders are particularly are particularly are particularly religiously religiously religiously inclined, inclined, inclined, and you may say that it's said, "Well, and you may say that it's said, "Well, and you may say that it's said, "Well, for them." And I and I get that, but you for them." And I and I get that, but you for them." And I and I get that, but you don't have that additional aspect of don't have that additional aspect of don't have that additional aspect of this is not negotiable and and not only this is not negotiable and and not only this is not negotiable and and not only it's only not negotiable, we're just not it's only not negotiable, we're just not it's only not negotiable, we're just not going to discuss it. Now, like I say, I going to discuss it. Now, like I say, I going to discuss it. Now, like I say, I I can't fix that. I wouldn't want to fix I can't fix that. I wouldn't want to fix I can't fix that. I wouldn't want to fix it. Uh but I would but I would want to it. Uh but I would but I would want to it. Uh but I would but I would want to and I do point out you you you have to and I do point out you you you have to and I do point out you you you have to you have to work extra hard at this you have to work extra hard at this you have to work extra hard at this whole area whole area whole area of being the one that's making all of of being the one that's making all of of being the one that's making all of the decisions because you have a card the decisions because you have a card the decisions because you have a card you can pull out you can pull out you can pull out that nobody else really can. And you got that nobody else really can. And you got that nobody else really can. And you got just got to be really careful when you just got to be really careful when you just got to be really careful when you pull the card out. pull the card out. pull the card out. I am so glad you said that. You know, my I am so glad you said that. You know, my I am so glad you said that. You know, my take on that, Les, is I only really take on that, Les, is I only really take on that, Les, is I only really pull the quote God card out if I'm pull the quote God card out if I'm pull the quote God card out if I'm actually preaching actually preaching actually preaching something. I try to like if it's an something. I try to like if it's an something. I try to like if it's an opinion, if it's something I believe to opinion, if it's something I believe to opinion, if it's something I believe to be right, be right, be right, I'll say, "Here's where I think we I'll say, "Here's where I think we I'll say, "Here's where I think we should go." I don't say, "God is telling should go." I don't say, "God is telling should go." I don't say, "God is telling us that we should." Cuz I see that us that we should." Cuz I see that us that we should." Cuz I see that abused so often in the church. And abused so often in the church. And abused so often in the church. And misused and people get hurt and they end misused and people get hurt and they end misused and people get hurt and they end up leaving a church. It's like, "Hey, my

up leaving a church. It's like, "Hey, my up leaving a church. It's like, "Hey, my judgment's pretty fallible." That's why judgment's pretty fallible." That's why judgment's pretty fallible." That's why one of the criticism I get in my writing one of the criticism I get in my writing one of the criticism I get in my writing all the time is you don't have any Bible all the time is you don't have any Bible all the time is you don't have any Bible in it. It's like, "Yeah, cuz I'm writing in it. It's like, "Yeah, cuz I'm writing in it. It's like, "Yeah, cuz I'm writing about, about, about, you know, cultural issues. And I'm doing you know, cultural issues. And I'm doing you know, cultural issues. And I'm doing my best to interpret what I can, but I'm my best to interpret what I can, but I'm my best to interpret what I can, but I'm not actually I'm not actually preaching not actually I'm not actually preaching not actually I'm not actually preaching a sermon and I'm not going to say, you a sermon and I'm not going to say, you a sermon and I'm not going to say, you know, "My way of understanding this is know, "My way of understanding this is know, "My way of understanding this is the best because as we see in Ezekiel the best because as we see in Ezekiel the best because as we see in Ezekiel chapter blah blah blah." You know, chapter blah blah blah." You know, chapter blah blah blah." You know, save that for preaching. I don't know save that for preaching. I don't know save that for preaching. I don't know whether that's a Do you have a rule of whether that's a Do you have a rule of whether that's a Do you have a rule of thumb on that? That's my rule of thumb thumb on that? That's my rule of thumb thumb on that? That's my rule of thumb is like I will speak for God when I'm is like I will speak for God when I'm is like I will speak for God when I'm actually quoting God's word. If it's my actually quoting God's word. If it's my actually quoting God's word. If it's my interpretation of it, I'm going to be interpretation of it, I'm going to be interpretation of it, I'm going to be very careful. very careful. very careful. Well, I think it's a wonderful rule of Well, I think it's a wonderful rule of Well, I think it's a wonderful rule of thumb. And I and I I I thumb. And I and I I I thumb. And I and I I I I've got to be very very careful that I I've got to be very very careful that I I've got to be very very careful that I don't you know, I'm not a pastor and I don't you know, I'm not a pastor and I don't you know, I'm not a pastor and I and I'm not No, but That's a word we and I'm not No, but That's a word we and I'm not No, but That's a word we need to hear and there's so many broken need to hear and there's so many broken need to hear and there's so many broken hearts over, hearts over, hearts over, you know, the Lord said and people gave you know, the Lord said and people gave you know, the Lord said and people gave everything to it and then the church everything to it and then the church everything to it and then the church went belly up and it's like, "Well, what went belly up and it's like, "Well, what went belly up and it's like, "Well, what was that?" was that?" was that?" Yeah, and I I I I I think there is also Yeah, and I I I I I think there is also Yeah, and I I I I I think there is also one imperative in and around that that one imperative in and around that that one imperative in and around that that can be helpful, I think, to see.

can be helpful, I think, to see. can be helpful, I think, to see. I want to say to our for-profit I want to say to our for-profit I want to say to our for-profit uh owners, what what they do their uh owners, what what they do their uh owners, what what they do their equivalent is I'm a I own this business. equivalent is I'm a I own this business. equivalent is I'm a I own this business. I own 100% of this business, right? I I own 100% of this business, right? I I own 100% of this business, right? I own it. So, you know, whatever I say own it. So, you know, whatever I say own it. So, you know, whatever I say happens. happens. happens. Um and Um and Um and I you know, I say two things that most I you know, I say two things that most I you know, I say two things that most founders don't founders don't founders don't uh have a particular problem with it, uh have a particular problem with it, uh have a particular problem with it, but when it but when it but when it is happening a lot, is happening a lot, is happening a lot, I ask them to think of it two things. I ask them to think of it two things. I ask them to think of it two things. One is everybody knows it, One is everybody knows it, One is everybody knows it, and and and anyway, you're not You're not saying anyway, you're not You're not saying anyway, you're not You're not saying anything new. And everybody knows that anything new. And everybody knows that anything new. And everybody knows that sure, 98% of the time that their lead sure, 98% of the time that their lead sure, 98% of the time that their lead pastor loves God and is seeking on a pastor loves God and is seeking on a pastor loves God and is seeking on a daily basis to hear God's word. They get daily basis to hear God's word. They get daily basis to hear God's word. They get it. They know that. They don't think it. They know that. They don't think it. They know that. They don't think you're not. First of all. The second you're not. First of all. The second you're not. First of all. The second thing that's that's the thing that's that's the thing that's that's the most problematic aspect is most problematic aspect is most problematic aspect is you take it from the for-profit point of you take it from the for-profit point of you take it from the for-profit point of world world world uh perspective. uh perspective. uh perspective. Every time you do that, Every time you do that, Every time you do that, you're you're you're reducing the possibility of the person reducing the possibility of the person reducing the possibility of the person that you say it to or make it clear to that you say it to or make it clear to that you say it to or make it clear to or imply it to or emotionally construe or imply it to or emotionally construe or imply it to or emotionally construe it it it to develop as a leader to develop as a leader to develop as a leader because you've just shut down any chance because you've just shut down any chance because you've just shut down any chance of them stepping into this thing, of them stepping into this thing, of them stepping into this thing, whatever the topic is, and trying to whatever the topic is, and trying to whatever the topic is, and trying to give give give their best. And the same thing happens.

their best. And the same thing happens. their best. And the same thing happens. So, just be careful when when you when So, just be careful when when you when So, just be careful when when you when you're about to you're about to you're about to It's not that It's not that It's not that most pastors are going to outright say, most pastors are going to outright say, most pastors are going to outright say, uh you know, "Look, God told me." uh you know, "Look, God told me." uh you know, "Look, God told me." There's just there's ways to There's just there's ways to There's just there's ways to There's ways to convey it. There's ways to convey it. There's ways to convey it. Just bear in mind that Just bear in mind that Just bear in mind that you're preventing something happening you're preventing something happening you're preventing something happening that you really need. that you really need. that you really need. And I I And I I And I I I realize we're we're opening up a I realize we're we're opening up a I realize we're we're opening up a massive area here, but if you take two massive area here, but if you take two massive area here, but if you take two businesses going head-to-head or you businesses going head-to-head or you businesses going head-to-head or you take two churches that are not take two churches that are not take two churches that are not competing, but you just want to see why competing, but you just want to see why competing, but you just want to see why is one growing and and the other one's is one growing and and the other one's is one growing and and the other one's not. not. not. In my experience, the number one In my experience, the number one In my experience, the number one long-term differentiator long-term differentiator long-term differentiator is the degree of effective discretionary is the degree of effective discretionary is the degree of effective discretionary effort people bring every day. effort people bring every day. effort people bring every day. Mm. Mm. Mm. That's the distinguishing factor. That's the distinguishing factor. That's the distinguishing factor. These days, there isn't going to be a These days, there isn't going to be a These days, there isn't going to be a business in the world can't get cheap business in the world can't get cheap business in the world can't get cheap chat GPT to spit out as good a strategic chat GPT to spit out as good a strategic chat GPT to spit out as good a strategic plan as any other, right? plan as any other, right? plan as any other, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Nobody's wandering around with a coke Nobody's wandering around with a coke Nobody's wandering around with a coke secret recipe anymore. That those secret recipe anymore. That those secret recipe anymore. That those barriers to growth and inhibitors of barriers to growth and inhibitors of barriers to growth and inhibitors of competitors don't exist anymore.

competitors don't exist anymore. competitors don't exist anymore. The main distinct by and large the main The main distinct by and large the main The main distinct by and large the main distinction is as a group of people when distinction is as a group of people when distinction is as a group of people when we come in here every day everybody we come in here every day everybody we come in here every day everybody brings with them an an open satchel of brings with them an an open satchel of brings with them an an open satchel of discretionary effort. Folks are going to discretionary effort. Folks are going to discretionary effort. Folks are going to do what they're paid to do to get paid do what they're paid to do to get paid do what they're paid to do to get paid because otherwise they don't get paid. because otherwise they don't get paid. because otherwise they don't get paid. They get fired. They get fired. They get fired. But I mean and you I do this every every But I mean and you I do this every every But I mean and you I do this every every minute. I do it with every podcast minute. I do it with every podcast minute. I do it with every podcast interview. You do it with every line interview. You do it with every line interview. You do it with every line that you write is how much discretionary that you write is how much discretionary that you write is how much discretionary effort am I bringing to make this the effort am I bringing to make this the effort am I bringing to make this the best it can possibly be. best it can possibly be. best it can possibly be. And when you shut down And when you shut down And when you shut down the possibility for me to speak into the possibility for me to speak into the possibility for me to speak into something something something by telling me or making it clear, look by telling me or making it clear, look by telling me or making it clear, look I'm the boss. I own this place. What I I'm the boss. I own this place. What I I'm the boss. I own this place. What I say. say. say. And then you shut that all down. Now, am And then you shut that all down. Now, am And then you shut that all down. Now, am I saying that there are not situations I saying that there are not situations I saying that there are not situations in which it's right to just say, look, in which it's right to just say, look, in which it's right to just say, look, hold on a second. This is what we're hold on a second. This is what we're hold on a second. This is what we're going to say. No, I'm not. But it's going to say. No, I'm not. But it's going to say. No, I'm not. But it's again it's one of those things if you again it's one of those things if you again it's one of those things if you want to make the transition out of fun want to make the transition out of fun want to make the transition out of fun and into predictable success and into predictable success and into predictable success it's one of those things that's got to it's one of those things that's got to it's one of those things that's got to be going down, not going up. be going down, not going up. be going down, not going up. Yeah. No, I think that's so true. It's Yeah. No, I think that's so true. It's Yeah. No, I think that's so true. It's about ownership and people feel about ownership and people feel about ownership and people feel ownership of the mission, even the ownership of the mission, even the ownership of the mission, even the mission of a church when they feel like mission of a church when they feel like mission of a church when they feel like they have a say, when they feel like they have a say, when they feel like they have a say, when they feel like they're actually contributing to make a they're actually contributing to make a they're actually contributing to make a difference rather than whatever you difference rather than whatever you difference rather than whatever you said, I'll just try to help with, right?

said, I'll just try to help with, right? said, I'll just try to help with, right? So. Yeah. I I you've you've just said a So. Yeah. I I you've you've just said a So. Yeah. I I you've you've just said a hugely important thing. I realize we're hugely important thing. I realize we're hugely important thing. I realize we're pushing our time limit here, but I I pushing our time limit here, but I I pushing our time limit here, but I I want I want to put one more thing what want I want to put one more thing what want I want to put one more thing what you just said in the context of the you just said in the context of the you just said in the context of the of the of the of the what we've been calling the mini what we've been calling the mini what we've been calling the mini celebrity pastor. In fact, any any celebrity pastor. In fact, any any celebrity pastor. In fact, any any pastor who wants to pastor who wants to pastor who wants to take their church if particularly if take their church if particularly if take their church if particularly if they founded it into predictable they founded it into predictable they founded it into predictable success. success. success. You're going you're going to many many You're going you're going to many many You're going you're going to many many more churches than I do. more churches than I do. more churches than I do. I'm sure you'll agree with me that in I'm sure you'll agree with me that in I'm sure you'll agree with me that in many cases if the finding pastor is many cases if the finding pastor is many cases if the finding pastor is still there still there still there the vast majority of people's the vast majority of people's the vast majority of people's really true commitment if you scratch really true commitment if you scratch really true commitment if you scratch them them them to the core to the core to the core isn't to the church, it's to the pastor. isn't to the church, it's to the pastor. isn't to the church, it's to the pastor. Right? And that's good. There's not a Right? And that's good. There's not a Right? And that's good. There's not a darn thing wrong with that. darn thing wrong with that. darn thing wrong with that. But if you want to grow this church and But if you want to grow this church and But if you want to grow this church and be able at some point to move on you've be able at some point to move on you've be able at some point to move on you've got to begin to build that separation got to begin to build that separation got to begin to build that separation I've talked about so many times so that I've talked about so many times so that I've talked about so many times so that people can begin to make that transition people can begin to make that transition people can begin to make that transition from having their commitment to you from having their commitment to you from having their commitment to you individually to the church.

individually to the church. individually to the church. And I and it's a healthy thing Mhm. And I and it's a healthy thing Mhm. And I and it's a healthy thing Mhm. possibly the most healthiest stage a possibly the most healthiest stage a possibly the most healthiest stage a church can be in is when there's a core church can be in is when there's a core church can be in is when there's a core group of people who were around whenever group of people who were around whenever group of people who were around whenever the pastor was first making this happen, the pastor was first making this happen, the pastor was first making this happen, but there's also a group of people who but there's also a group of people who but there's also a group of people who didn't know those early days at all and didn't know those early days at all and didn't know those early days at all and are equally committed, but they're are equally committed, but they're are equally committed, but they're committed to the church. So I want to I committed to the church. So I want to I committed to the church. So I want to I want to test this out with you. You want to test this out with you. You want to test this out with you. You know, when I was leading Connexus I know, when I was leading Connexus I know, when I was leading Connexus I realized, you know, cuz people say, you realized, you know, cuz people say, you realized, you know, cuz people say, you know, you got a charismatic personality, know, you got a charismatic personality, know, you got a charismatic personality, definitely went through early struggle, definitely went through early struggle, definitely went through early struggle, fun all of those stages and there was fun all of those stages and there was fun all of those stages and there was the worry and the criticism the worry and the criticism the worry and the criticism that my identity was fused with the that my identity was fused with the that my identity was fused with the church. And I took some very intentional church. And I took some very intentional church. And I took some very intentional steps in the last five years of my steps in the last five years of my steps in the last five years of my leadership, more than that maybe leadership, more than that maybe leadership, more than that maybe to build a team quality team-based to build a team quality team-based to build a team quality team-based decision making to decision making to decision making to hire the right people, etc. etc. And it hire the right people, etc. etc. And it hire the right people, etc. etc. And it got to the point where, you know, I want got to the point where, you know, I want got to the point where, you know, I want to be careful to, you know, I think we to be careful to, you know, I think we to be careful to, you know, I think we were in predictable success. Uh were in predictable success. Uh were in predictable success. Uh certainly the church, you know, didn't certainly the church, you know, didn't certainly the church, you know, didn't struggle much after well, didn't struggle much after well, didn't struggle much after well, didn't struggle at all really after I left and struggle at all really after I left and struggle at all really after I left and has continued to grow and uh flourish has continued to grow and uh flourish has continued to grow and uh flourish under uh Jeff Brodie who succe- under uh Jeff Brodie who succe- under uh Jeff Brodie who succe- succeeded me.

succeeded me. succeeded me. But in those last few years But in those last few years But in those last few years less less less um um um it was weird cuz our church kept growing it was weird cuz our church kept growing it was weird cuz our church kept growing and I almost got bored because I was so and I almost got bored because I was so and I almost got bored because I was so not in the weeds. You know when you're not in the weeds. You know when you're not in the weeds. You know when you're in the weeds and you're like, and I went in the weeds and you're like, and I went in the weeds and you're like, and I went through a period of burnout, you know, through a period of burnout, you know, through a period of burnout, you know, maybe eight years, nine years before I I maybe eight years, nine years before I I maybe eight years, nine years before I I I left as lead pastor where you were so I left as lead pastor where you were so I left as lead pastor where you were so in the weeds you couldn't get a break. in the weeds you couldn't get a break. in the weeds you couldn't get a break. Every time you looked at your phone, Every time you looked at your phone, Every time you looked at your phone, every time you blinked, there was new every time you blinked, there was new every time you blinked, there was new stuff. stuff. stuff. >> Right. And by the end after all of that >> Right. And by the end after all of that >> Right. And by the end after all of that had been done and given away and quality had been done and given away and quality had been done and given away and quality team-based decisions and the right team-based decisions and the right team-based decisions and the right leaders, right seats on the bus, all leaders, right seats on the bus, all leaders, right seats on the bus, all that stuff that stuff that stuff I had a ridiculous amount of time to I had a ridiculous amount of time to I had a ridiculous amount of time to work on my message. Sometimes I'd be work on my message. Sometimes I'd be work on my message. Sometimes I'd be like, doesn't anybody need to talk to like, doesn't anybody need to talk to like, doesn't anybody need to talk to me? me? me? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um you know, I was out maybe one or two >> Um you know, I was out maybe one or two >> Um you know, I was out maybe one or two nights a month at the most, whereas when nights a month at the most, whereas when nights a month at the most, whereas when the churches were small and we were in the churches were small and we were in the churches were small and we were in early struggle, I was out five nights a early struggle, I was out five nights a early struggle, I was out five nights a week, which I would love to get back cuz week, which I would love to get back cuz week, which I would love to get back cuz my kids were young then, you know. Still my kids were young then, you know. Still my kids were young then, you know. Still had kids at home when I was leading the had kids at home when I was leading the had kids at home when I was leading the church, but is that weird or is that church, but is that weird or is that church, but is that weird or is that like a pattern that you've seen? No.

like a pattern that you've seen? No. like a pattern that you've seen? No. It's a It's a It's a a a a a a a probably probably probably one of the top three most frequent one of the top three most frequent one of the top three most frequent outcomes most frequent successful outcomes most frequent successful outcomes most frequent successful outcomes. There's a lot of different outcomes. There's a lot of different outcomes. There's a lot of different unsuccessful ways that story can end, unsuccessful ways that story can end, unsuccessful ways that story can end, but but but you think about it, you know, you you you think about it, you know, you you you think about it, you know, you you just talked about encapsulation of all just talked about encapsulation of all just talked about encapsulation of all that we've been talking about in this that we've been talking about in this that we've been talking about in this call. So there you were, you're doing call. So there you were, you're doing call. So there you were, you're doing all the stuff and you're the curse all the stuff and you're the curse all the stuff and you're the curse knowledge and you're juggling knowledge and you're juggling knowledge and you're juggling everything. You're making all the everything. You're making all the everything. You're making all the decisions. You get this decisions. You get this decisions. You get this church to the point where you're not church to the point where you're not church to the point where you're not having to do all of that anymore. having to do all of that anymore. having to do all of that anymore. That's the success. The the your That's the success. The the your That's the success. The the your personal response to it which is bored personal response to it which is bored personal response to it which is bored is that's fine, but doesn't mean it is that's fine, but doesn't mean it is that's fine, but doesn't mean it wasn't a success. It was a huge success. wasn't a success. It was a huge success. wasn't a success. It was a huge success. The the other the options that happen The the other the options that happen The the other the options that happen are are are some people just think some people just think some people just think this you know, this new version of me is this you know, this new version of me is this you know, this new version of me is is really what I what I was born for and is really what I what I was born for and is really what I what I was born for and they jump into that and and they they they jump into that and and they they they jump into that and and they they just immerse themselves in being the just immerse themselves in being the just immerse themselves in being the mentor, the teacher of the men of the mentor, the teacher of the men of the mentor, the teacher of the men of the folks that are in place there uh and folks that are in place there uh and folks that are in place there uh and stick and hang in with it.

stick and hang in with it. stick and hang in with it. But very many people just say, okay, But very many people just say, okay, But very many people just say, okay, I've I've done a great thing here. It's I've I've done a great thing here. It's I've I've done a great thing here. It's time for me to time for me to time for me to go make great books, make podcasts do go make great books, make podcasts do go make great books, make podcasts do the next thing. the next thing. the next thing. >> I have three to five years left and then >> I have three to five years left and then >> I have three to five years left and then my successor had just had his 40th, I my successor had just had his 40th, I my successor had just had his 40th, I had my 50th and so had my 50th and so had my 50th and so I'm like, oh gosh, if I wait a couple I'm like, oh gosh, if I wait a couple I'm like, oh gosh, if I wait a couple more years, I'm not sure he's going to more years, I'm not sure he's going to more years, I'm not sure he's going to be around. be around. be around. >> That was the absolutely the the right >> That was the absolutely the the right >> That was the absolutely the the right outcome because you had nominated a outcome because you had nominated a outcome because you had nominated a successor which is that's a relatively successor which is that's a relatively successor which is that's a relatively uncommon thing. What much more common is uncommon thing. What much more common is uncommon thing. What much more common is for lead pastors for lead pastors for lead pastors founders of businesses founders of businesses founders of businesses who want to do the job themselves. They who want to do the job themselves. They who want to do the job themselves. They want to they want to change themselves want to they want to change themselves want to they want to change themselves and become the predictable success lead and become the predictable success lead and become the predictable success lead pastor. And so they're going to stay pastor. And so they're going to stay pastor. And so they're going to stay around. They're just going to become a around. They're just going to become a around. They're just going to become a different person. But the the route you different person. But the the route you different person. But the the route you took is is by far the better one took is is by far the better one took is is by far the better one and in terms of success for everybody. and in terms of success for everybody. and in terms of success for everybody. You've got then you've Jeff who stepped You've got then you've Jeff who stepped You've got then you've Jeff who stepped into something he wouldn't have had into something he wouldn't have had into something he wouldn't have had before. He's developed as a as a person. before. He's developed as a as a person. before. He's developed as a as a person. The church is better for it. I don't The church is better for it. I don't The church is better for it. I don't mean they're better not church better mean they're better not church better mean they're better not church better for you not being around. It's better for you not being around. It's better for you not being around. It's better for it being depersonalized I'm not for it being depersonalized I'm not for it being depersonalized I'm not going to going to going to >> for it being depersonalized from you, >> for it being depersonalized from you, >> for it being depersonalized from you, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's it exactly, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's it exactly, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's it exactly, exactly.

exactly. exactly. Um Um Um you know, there's there's a handful of you know, there's there's a handful of you know, there's there's a handful of people that's funny. Jeff told me this people that's funny. Jeff told me this people that's funny. Jeff told me this the other day. He said there's a handful the other day. He said there's a handful the other day. He said there's a handful of people who still call it Kerry's of people who still call it Kerry's of people who still call it Kerry's church, but church, but church, but you [laughter] know, they're probably you [laughter] know, they're probably you [laughter] know, they're probably old and dying now, I think. And uh the old and dying now, I think. And uh the old and dying now, I think. And uh the vast majority of people don't know who I vast majority of people don't know who I vast majority of people don't know who I am, which is wonderful. I mean, that's a am, which is wonderful. I mean, that's a am, which is wonderful. I mean, that's a great success and we still attend. great success and we still attend. great success and we still attend. >> a world of difference between being out >> a world of difference between being out >> a world of difference between being out every five nights a week because if you every five nights a week because if you every five nights a week because if you don't things will fall down and break don't things will fall down and break don't things will fall down and break and being out five nights a week because and being out five nights a week because and being out five nights a week because you love it and you just want to go be you love it and you just want to go be you love it and you just want to go be there. there. there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. One more Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. One more Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. One more thing since we've overshot our time over thing since we've overshot our time over thing since we've overshot our time over and over and over again. Um one of the and over and over again. Um one of the and over and over again. Um one of the stories I'm getting regularly now is stories I'm getting regularly now is stories I'm getting regularly now is founding pastors or long-time pastors founding pastors or long-time pastors founding pastors or long-time pastors who set up a succession plan who set up a succession plan who set up a succession plan and then they keep extending the and then they keep extending the and then they keep extending the timeline. It's like, you know, last timeline. It's like, you know, last timeline. It's like, you know, last you're going to be senior pastor in two you're going to be senior pastor in two you're going to be senior pastor in two years. Year and a half goes by. Nothing. years. Year and a half goes by. Nothing. years. Year and a half goes by. Nothing. Uh are we doing this? Well, you know, I Uh are we doing this? Well, you know, I Uh are we doing this? Well, you know, I was rethinking and I'm I'm thinking was rethinking and I'm I'm thinking was rethinking and I'm I'm thinking maybe another year or two and then I've maybe another year or two and then I've maybe another year or two and then I've seen them go five years, seven years, seen them go five years, seven years, seen them go five years, seven years, nine years. And these poor would-be nine years. And these poor would-be nine years. And these poor would-be successors are just sitting there on the successors are just sitting there on the successors are just sitting there on the sideline.

sideline. sideline. Just any thoughts on that? And let's Just any thoughts on that? And let's Just any thoughts on that? And let's talk to the senior pastor who has the talk to the senior pastor who has the talk to the senior pastor who has the indefinite ending to their ministry even indefinite ending to their ministry even indefinite ending to their ministry even though they've announced it multiple though they've announced it multiple though they've announced it multiple times. Yeah, I I it's and it's one of times. Yeah, I I it's and it's one of times. Yeah, I I it's and it's one of those things that it's those things that it's those things that it's you know, you know, you know, I'm not saying heartbreaking, but you I'm not saying heartbreaking, but you I'm not saying heartbreaking, but you get a little twinge with those types of get a little twinge with those types of get a little twinge with those types of things because it's done out of the best things because it's done out of the best things because it's done out of the best will in the world. I mean, for somebody will in the world. I mean, for somebody will in the world. I mean, for somebody even to say in in even to say in in even to say in in any organizational context, I'm going to any organizational context, I'm going to any organizational context, I'm going to think through my succession is think through my succession is think through my succession is relatively it's much more unusual than relatively it's much more unusual than relatively it's much more unusual than you might imagine. Um but the church you might imagine. Um but the church you might imagine. Um but the church circuit it is it's all about set a circuit it is it's all about set a circuit it is it's all about set a metric, not a time. metric, not a time. metric, not a time. Pick a number. When we get to Pick a number. When we get to Pick a number. When we get to thousand people or thousand people or thousand people or when we when we when we add another ministry or add another ministry or add another ministry or when we start our Spanish work or when we start our Spanish work or when we start our Spanish work or whatever it is. Add a metric that you whatever it is. Add a metric that you whatever it is. Add a metric that you can see in the future. Make it a can see in the future. Make it a can see in the future. Make it a reasonable one. reasonable one. reasonable one. >> happens >> happens >> happens >> And when that happens then we'll pull >> And when that happens then we'll pull >> And when that happens then we'll pull the trigger cuz the the time doesn't the trigger cuz the the time doesn't the trigger cuz the the time doesn't mean anything. Is it two years? Well, mean anything. Is it two years? Well, mean anything. Is it two years? Well, why two years, right?

why two years, right? why two years, right? I'm just uh I'll be old. And well, I'm just uh I'll be old. And well, I'm just uh I'll be old. And well, you're old now, you just don't accept you're old now, you just don't accept you're old now, you just don't accept it. it. it. >> [laughter] >> So set up set set up set a metric. >> So set up set set up set a metric. And then you got to And then you got to And then you got to And then if you find what you if what And then if you find what you if what And then if you find what you if what you find you're doing is you're you find you're doing is you're you find you're doing is you're self-harming the metric, then you really self-harming the metric, then you really self-harming the metric, then you really know you have a problem. You can't let know you have a problem. You can't let know you have a problem. You can't let go. go. go. >> Yeah, exactly. I can see, well, we're >> Yeah, exactly. I can see, well, we're >> Yeah, exactly. I can see, well, we're not going to launch that yet cuz I still not going to launch that yet cuz I still not going to launch that yet cuz I still want to work on Let's not do that yet, want to work on Let's not do that yet, want to work on Let's not do that yet, right? Well, let's not tell you. This is right? Well, let's not tell you. This is right? Well, let's not tell you. This is This has been so much fun. Um This has been so much fun. Um This has been so much fun. Um Predictable Success, highly recommend Predictable Success, highly recommend Predictable Success, highly recommend that book. The Synergist, you wrote that book. The Synergist, you wrote that book. The Synergist, you wrote another one recently, Do Scale. another one recently, Do Scale. another one recently, Do Scale. Do you have any recent projects and if Do you have any recent projects and if Do you have any recent projects and if not, what is a good place for people to not, what is a good place for people to not, what is a good place for people to connect with you online these days? Um connect with you online these days? Um connect with you online these days? Um but the minute I'm I'm about two but the minute I'm I'm about two but the minute I'm I'm about two two to three years into a three-month two to three years into a three-month two to three years into a three-month project of [laughter] project of [laughter] project of [laughter] moving as much of my stuff online as moving as much of my stuff online as moving as much of my stuff online as possible. Um possible. Um possible. Um the folks that are watching were in my the folks that are watching were in my the folks that are watching were in my studio here. studio here. studio here. Um Um Um because I I I want to because I I I want to because I I I want to enable it for as many people as enable it for as many people as enable it for as many people as possible. I love the in-person work and possible. I love the in-person work and possible. I love the in-person work and I love I love I love uh uh uh coaching personal coaching on I'll never coaching personal coaching on I'll never coaching personal coaching on I'll never not do that, but I you know, I want to not do that, but I you know, I want to not do that, but I you know, I want to people have as much access to it as people have as much access to it as people have as much access to it as possible and uh possible and uh possible and uh I set up a a little uh page for folks if I set up a a little uh page for folks if I set up a a little uh page for folks if they just go to they just go to they just go to predictablesuccess/kerry, predictablesuccess/kerry, predictablesuccess/kerry, they can get uh free chapters from the they can get uh free chapters from the they can get uh free chapters from the book. Uh they can sign up for my blog, book. Uh they can sign up for my blog, book. Uh they can sign up for my blog, they can get a whole bunch of research.

they can get a whole bunch of research. they can get a whole bunch of research. >> Yeah, I get your newsletter, I love it. >> Yeah, I get your newsletter, I love it. >> Yeah, I get your newsletter, I love it. And um by the way, And um by the way, And um by the way, if you're looking for a consultant, Les if you're looking for a consultant, Les if you're looking for a consultant, Les is among the very best and I'm so glad is among the very best and I'm so glad is among the very best and I'm so glad that you're still doing that. So thank that you're still doing that. So thank that you're still doing that. So thank you so much, Les. I know this won't be you so much, Les. I know this won't be you so much, Les. I know this won't be the last time, but I'm really grateful. the last time, but I'm really grateful. the last time, but I'm really grateful. You helped us uh figure some stuff out You helped us uh figure some stuff out You helped us uh figure some stuff out today. Grateful for you. Yeah, I I feel today. Grateful for you. Yeah, I I feel today. Grateful for you. Yeah, I I feel a little bit like Drew Barrymore in Late a little bit like Drew Barrymore in Late a little bit like Drew Barrymore in Late Night, you know, back for the fifth Night, you know, back for the fifth Night, you know, back for the fifth visit. So Hey, that's great. We'll do it visit. So Hey, that's great. We'll do it visit. So Hey, that's great. We'll do it again. [laughter] again. [laughter] again. [laughter] Thank you, Les. Thanks, Gary. Thanks, Thank you, Les. Thanks, Gary. Thanks, Thank you, Les. Thanks, Gary. Thanks, everybody. Hope you found that to be a everybody. Hope you found that to be a everybody. Hope you found that to be a really stimulating conversation. I know really stimulating conversation. I know really stimulating conversation. I know I did and speaking of interesting I did and speaking of interesting I did and speaking of interesting conversations, next up on the podcast, conversations, next up on the podcast, conversations, next up on the podcast, John Crist. That was a lot of fun. We John Crist. That was a lot of fun. We John Crist. That was a lot of fun. We were in Nashville were in Nashville were in Nashville uh when I shot that podcast. I had him uh when I shot that podcast. I had him uh when I shot that podcast. I had him on my podcast, he had me on his podcast, on my podcast, he had me on his podcast, on my podcast, he had me on his podcast, Net Positive, which is a really fun Net Positive, which is a really fun Net Positive, which is a really fun listen if you want to check it out. And listen if you want to check it out. And listen if you want to check it out. And then we uh went to see him uh perform at then we uh went to see him uh perform at then we uh went to see him uh perform at new material Monday night. That was a a new material Monday night. That was a a new material Monday night. That was a a lot of fun in Nashville at Zanies. lot of fun in Nashville at Zanies. lot of fun in Nashville at Zanies. That's uh something I'll do again. I That's uh something I'll do again. I That's uh something I'll do again. I don't go to a lot of comedy clubs. But don't go to a lot of comedy clubs. But don't go to a lot of comedy clubs. But anyway, that's coming up next episode. anyway, that's coming up next episode. anyway, that's coming up next episode. If you want more, you can get show notes If you want more, you can get show notes If you want more, you can get show notes and everything. We keep them in the Art and everything. We keep them in the Art and everything. We keep them in the Art of Leadership Academy. We've got over of Leadership Academy. We've got over of Leadership Academy. We've got over 15,000 leaders inside the academy. You 15,000 leaders inside the academy. You 15,000 leaders inside the academy. You can join absolutely for free and guess can join absolutely for free and guess can join absolutely for free and guess what we have? Really meaningful what we have? Really meaningful what we have? Really meaningful conversations around these episodes and conversations around these episodes and conversations around these episodes and a whole lot more. And by the way, for a whole lot more. And by the way, for a whole lot more. And by the way, for those of you who listen to way often, those of you who listen to way often, those of you who listen to way often, you know, if you listen to a lot of you know, if you listen to a lot of you know, if you listen to a lot of podcasts or watch them like I do, podcasts or watch them like I do, podcasts or watch them like I do, there's always been a divide between, there's always been a divide between, there's always been a divide between, you know, do you watch podcast? Do you you know, do you watch podcast? Do you you know, do you watch podcast? Do you listen to podcast? And did you know that listen to podcast? And did you know that listen to podcast? And did you know that just very recently Spotify rolled out a just very recently Spotify rolled out a just very recently Spotify rolled out a feature where you can toggle between feature where you can toggle between feature where you can toggle between audio and video seamlessly. So maybe,

audio and video seamlessly. So maybe, audio and video seamlessly. So maybe, you know, I find that I'm usually an you know, I find that I'm usually an you know, I find that I'm usually an audio listener and the vast majority of audio listener and the vast majority of audio listener and the vast majority of people who access this podcast are audio people who access this podcast are audio people who access this podcast are audio listeners, but sometimes I want to pop listeners, but sometimes I want to pop listeners, but sometimes I want to pop on and just see, hey, what does the on and just see, hey, what does the on and just see, hey, what does the guest look like? Or, you know, if there guest look like? Or, you know, if there guest look like? Or, you know, if there was some kind of graphic or something, I was some kind of graphic or something, I was some kind of graphic or something, I want to see it. But then you got to find want to see it. But then you got to find want to see it. But then you got to find that moment in the podcast. Well, that moment in the podcast. Well, that moment in the podcast. Well, anyway, if you listen via Spotify now, anyway, if you listen via Spotify now, anyway, if you listen via Spotify now, you can seamlessly toggle between audio you can seamlessly toggle between audio you can seamlessly toggle between audio and video. That's a cool new feature. and video. That's a cool new feature. and video. That's a cool new feature. Just podcast listeners, you know, a lot Just podcast listeners, you know, a lot Just podcast listeners, you know, a lot of you listening on Apple Podcasts, on of you listening on Apple Podcasts, on of you listening on Apple Podcasts, on Overcast like I do for the most part, Overcast like I do for the most part, Overcast like I do for the most part, that's probably going to make me migrate that's probably going to make me migrate that's probably going to make me migrate to Spotify. So I just wanted to post to Spotify. So I just wanted to post to Spotify. So I just wanted to post that uh point that out, I should say. that uh point that out, I should say. that uh point that out, I should say. And that is a brand new feature. So And that is a brand new feature. So And that is a brand new feature. So thank you so much for listening. thank you so much for listening. thank you so much for listening. You guys, you mean the world to me. We You guys, you mean the world to me. We You guys, you mean the world to me. We have the best audience in the world. I'm have the best audience in the world. I'm have the best audience in the world. I'm so thankful for you. And when you share so thankful for you. And when you share so thankful for you. And when you share this with a friend, you help the podcast this with a friend, you help the podcast this with a friend, you help the podcast grow and you do the same thing when you grow and you do the same thing when you grow and you do the same thing when you leave a rating and review. So thank you leave a rating and review. So thank you leave a rating and review. So thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you so much for listening. We'll catch you so much for listening. We'll catch you next time. I've got John Crist up and I next time. I've got John Crist up and I next time. I've got John Crist up and I hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.