Pastoral Succession Gone Wrong: Tim Timberlake on Leading with Bleeding and Finding Momentum

Did you lose friends in that season? A Did you lose friends in that season? A lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost tons of friends. I lost, you know, most tons of friends. I lost, you know, most tons of friends. I lost, you know, most of them were ministry friendships, of them were ministry friendships, of them were ministry friendships, which, you know, Exactly. That's a whole which, you know, Exactly. That's a whole which, you know, Exactly. That's a whole different podcast episode in and of different podcast episode in and of different podcast episode in and of itself, but you know, people who don't itself, but you know, people who don't itself, but you know, people who don't know you, per se, people that know your know you, per se, people that know your know you, per se, people that know your gift. gift. gift. And And And yeah, and so yeah, and so yeah, and so >> Oh man. >> Oh man. >> Oh man. Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, they know your gift. they know your gift. they know your gift. >> know your gift. >> know your gift. >> know your gift. >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Today we're going to talk with Tim Today we're going to talk with Tim Today we're going to talk with Tim Timberlake about what happens when Timberlake about what happens when Timberlake about what happens when succession doesn't go well. What do you succession doesn't go well. What do you succession doesn't go well. What do you do when you're leading and bleeding? How do when you're leading and bleeding? How do when you're leading and bleeding? How do you find momentum? Plus Tim opens up do you find momentum? Plus Tim opens up do you find momentum? Plus Tim opens up about his divorce that he went through about his divorce that he went through about his divorce that he went through in ministry in his 20s. It's going to be in ministry in his 20s. It's going to be in ministry in his 20s. It's going to be a fascinating conversation. So wherever a fascinating conversation. So wherever a fascinating conversation. So wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow, leave a comment to join the follow, leave a comment to join the follow, leave a comment to join the conversation. And now a word from conversation. And now a word from conversation. And now a word from today's partners, then we'll dive right today's partners, then we'll dive right today's partners, then we'll dive right into my conversation with Tim into my conversation with Tim into my conversation with Tim Timberlake. This episode is brought to Timberlake. This episode is brought to Timberlake. This episode is brought to you by the Church Leaders Conference.

you by the Church Leaders Conference. you by the Church Leaders Conference. Hey church leaders, maybe you're feeling Hey church leaders, maybe you're feeling Hey church leaders, maybe you're feeling weary or burned out or just ready for weary or burned out or just ready for weary or burned out or just ready for what's next in ministry. Well, this what's next in ministry. Well, this what's next in ministry. Well, this spring Watermark Community Church in spring Watermark Community Church in spring Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas is hosting the Church Dallas, Texas is hosting the Church Dallas, Texas is hosting the Church Leaders Conference. Because this event Leaders Conference. Because this event Leaders Conference. Because this event consistently fills up, they're offering consistently fills up, they're offering consistently fills up, they're offering two day options so every church leader two day options so every church leader two day options so every church leader and their team can be part of it. Choose and their team can be part of it. Choose and their team can be part of it. Choose Monday and Tuesday, April 27th and 28th, Monday and Tuesday, April 27th and 28th, Monday and Tuesday, April 27th and 28th, or Wednesday and Thursday, April 29th or Wednesday and Thursday, April 29th or Wednesday and Thursday, April 29th and 30th, 2026. Exact same conference, and 30th, 2026. Exact same conference, and 30th, 2026. Exact same conference, two opportunities. And over two days, two opportunities. And over two days, two opportunities. And over two days, you'll experience main stage sessions you'll experience main stage sessions you'll experience main stage sessions with biblical teaching, practical with biblical teaching, practical with biblical teaching, practical breakouts to strengthen key areas of breakouts to strengthen key areas of breakouts to strengthen key areas of ministry, and you'll have time to have ministry, and you'll have time to have ministry, and you'll have time to have fun with your team. So, whether you're a fun with your team. So, whether you're a fun with your team. So, whether you're a pastor, a staff member, or a volunteer, pastor, a staff member, or a volunteer, pastor, a staff member, or a volunteer, you'll walk away refreshed in your you'll walk away refreshed in your you'll walk away refreshed in your calling and equipped with tools to take calling and equipped with tools to take calling and equipped with tools to take back to your church. So, bring a team of back to your church. So, bring a team of back to your church. So, bring a team of six or more and you'll save with a group six or more and you'll save with a group six or more and you'll save with a group discount. But don't wait, the price discount. But don't wait, the price discount. But don't wait, the price increases in just two weeks. So, gather increases in just two weeks. So, gather increases in just two weeks. So, gather your team, choose your dates, and your team, choose your dates, and your team, choose your dates, and register today at clc2026.com. register today at clc2026.com. register today at clc2026.com. That's clc2026.com.

That's clc2026.com. That's clc2026.com. Tim, great to have you on the show, Tim, great to have you on the show, Tim, great to have you on the show, finally, and to connect. finally, and to connect. finally, and to connect. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's an honor, Carey. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's an honor, Carey. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's an honor, Carey. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. So, I want to go way back uh Yeah. So, I want to go way back uh Yeah. So, I want to go way back uh and you talk about this, your and you talk about this, your and you talk about this, your grandfather was a sharecropper. Yeah. grandfather was a sharecropper. Yeah. grandfather was a sharecropper. Yeah. And you might have to give an education And you might have to give an education And you might have to give an education to our audience on what that is, but he to our audience on what that is, but he to our audience on what that is, but he went from living in a one-room went from living in a one-room went from living in a one-room literally a one-room tin shack to literally a one-room tin shack to literally a one-room tin shack to starting churches and literally changing starting churches and literally changing starting churches and literally changing his family's trajectory for generations. his family's trajectory for generations. his family's trajectory for generations. Talk a little bit about your origins, Talk a little bit about your origins, Talk a little bit about your origins, the transformation of your family tree, the transformation of your family tree, the transformation of your family tree, etc. And let's start with what is etc. And let's start with what is etc. And let's start with what is sharecropping? Absolutely, that's a sharecropping? Absolutely, that's a sharecropping? Absolutely, that's a great question. So, sharecropping great question. So, sharecropping great question. So, sharecropping for our audience that does not know or for our audience that does not know or for our audience that does not know or is not familiar is not familiar is not familiar is kind of one step above a slave. And is kind of one step above a slave. And is kind of one step above a slave. And so after they abolished slavery, so after they abolished slavery, so after they abolished slavery, to keep to keep to keep workmen and workwomen around, they workmen and workwomen around, they workmen and workwomen around, they categorized them as sharecroppers. categorized them as sharecroppers. categorized them as sharecroppers. And for the most part, sharecropping And for the most part, sharecropping And for the most part, sharecropping was a lot less abusive. You still had was a lot less abusive. You still had was a lot less abusive. You still had some abuse involved. You still had very some abuse involved. You still had very some abuse involved. You still had very cheap labor.

cheap labor. cheap labor. And what they would do to offset And what they would do to offset And what they would do to offset the labor and the work of the the labor and the work of the the labor and the work of the sharecroppers is allow sharecroppers to sharecroppers is allow sharecroppers to sharecroppers is allow sharecroppers to stay on the property stay on the property stay on the property in what they would call living quarters in what they would call living quarters in what they would call living quarters for for free. And so all of the for for free. And so all of the for for free. And so all of the sharecroppers would raise their kids and sharecroppers would raise their kids and sharecroppers would raise their kids and raise um those that were pretty close to raise um those that were pretty close to raise um those that were pretty close to the family that didn't have any family the family that didn't have any family the family that didn't have any family anymore because of a variety of anymore because of a variety of anymore because of a variety of circumstances in this sharecropper's circumstances in this sharecropper's circumstances in this sharecropper's house. And historically speaking, house. And historically speaking, house. And historically speaking, sharecropper homes were a one-room uh sharecropper homes were a one-room uh sharecropper homes were a one-room uh tin roof house. And in the middle of tin roof house. And in the middle of tin roof house. And in the middle of that tin room uh tin roof one-room that tin room uh tin roof one-room that tin room uh tin roof one-room house, there was a potbelly stove uh house, there was a potbelly stove uh house, there was a potbelly stove uh that kind of kept them warm, and they that kind of kept them warm, and they that kind of kept them warm, and they would utilize that for primarily would utilize that for primarily would utilize that for primarily everything that they needed fire for. everything that they needed fire for. everything that they needed fire for. So, whether it was heat, whether it was So, whether it was heat, whether it was So, whether it was heat, whether it was cooking, uh whether it was to warm a cooking, uh whether it was to warm a cooking, uh whether it was to warm a bathwater, that was the primary source bathwater, that was the primary source bathwater, that was the primary source of heat in the house. And so my of heat in the house. And so my of heat in the house. And so my grandfather, uh he raised uh his eight grandfather, uh he raised uh his eight grandfather, uh he raised uh his eight children with my grandmother in that children with my grandmother in that children with my grandmother in that sharecropper's house. My father was the sharecropper's house. My father was the sharecropper's house. My father was the oldest of eight.

oldest of eight. oldest of eight. And so he stayed there for quite a And so he stayed there for quite a And so he stayed there for quite a while. And as my grandfather was a while. And as my grandfather was a while. And as my grandfather was a sharecropper, sharecropper, sharecropper, uh he got called into ministry in kind uh he got called into ministry in kind uh he got called into ministry in kind of a uh a very odd way. Uh my of a uh a very odd way. Uh my of a uh a very odd way. Uh my grandmother was very sick and they had grandmother was very sick and they had grandmother was very sick and they had to rush her to the hospital to rush her to the hospital to rush her to the hospital and and and uh found out that she had some type of uh found out that she had some type of uh found out that she had some type of uh infection in her uh infection in her uh infection in her lungs. And so they had to remove one lungs. And so they had to remove one lungs. And so they had to remove one entire lung and they cut her remaining entire lung and they cut her remaining entire lung and they cut her remaining lung in half. And so she lived uh on a lung in half. And so she lived uh on a lung in half. And so she lived uh on a uh ventilator and life support uh for uh ventilator and life support uh for uh ventilator and life support uh for the next two days with half a lung. And the next two days with half a lung. And the next two days with half a lung. And as doctors were going to take her off of as doctors were going to take her off of as doctors were going to take her off of life support, my grandfather asked life support, my grandfather asked life support, my grandfather asked if they would give him a moment to go if they would give him a moment to go if they would give him a moment to go pray. And so uh he went to the lobby of pray. And so uh he went to the lobby of pray. And so uh he went to the lobby of this hospital and he dropped down on his this hospital and he dropped down on his this hospital and he dropped down on his knees and he prayed to God that he would knees and he prayed to God that he would knees and he prayed to God that he would spare his wife. And if God would spare spare his wife. And if God would spare spare his wife. And if God would spare his wife, then he and everyone that his wife, then he and everyone that his wife, then he and everyone that would come through his lineage would come through his lineage would come through his lineage uh would serve God. And uh he got up, uh would serve God. And uh he got up, uh would serve God. And uh he got up, Carey, and went back into that hospital Carey, and went back into that hospital Carey, and went back into that hospital room, sat beside my grandmother room, sat beside my grandmother room, sat beside my grandmother and they pulled her off of life support.

and they pulled her off of life support. and they pulled her off of life support. And uh she lived that night and she And uh she lived that night and she And uh she lived that night and she lived the next night and she lived the lived the next night and she lived the lived the next night and she lived the night after that. And finally, she was night after that. And finally, she was night after that. And finally, she was able to breathe on her own and they able to breathe on her own and they able to breathe on her own and they ended up getting her out of the hospital ended up getting her out of the hospital ended up getting her out of the hospital and she lived until she was about 91 and she lived until she was about 91 and she lived until she was about 91 years old. years old. years old. [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] And she was a tough cookie, man. I mean, And she was a tough cookie, man. I mean, And she was a tough cookie, man. I mean, just tough, resilient, just tough, resilient, just tough, resilient, uh tough as nails. But my grandfather uh tough as nails. But my grandfather uh tough as nails. But my grandfather made God a promise. made God a promise. made God a promise. And the promise was that if God would And the promise was that if God would And the promise was that if God would spare his life, he and everyone that spare his life, he and everyone that spare his life, he and everyone that would come through his lineage would would come through his lineage would would come through his lineage would serve God. And so as my grandmother got serve God. And so as my grandmother got serve God. And so as my grandmother got out of the hospital, my grandfather out of the hospital, my grandfather out of the hospital, my grandfather started sharing the word of God with started sharing the word of God with started sharing the word of God with people people people that he worked alongside of, uh the that he worked alongside of, uh the that he worked alongside of, uh the sharecroppers and other people who sharecroppers and other people who sharecroppers and other people who worked the land uh that he was working. worked the land uh that he was working. worked the land uh that he was working. And eventually, And eventually, And eventually, uh that number got so uh that number got so uh that number got so big, they started a church together. big, they started a church together. big, they started a church together. Hm. And so back then, church was a Hm. And so back then, church was a Hm. And so back then, church was a little bit different. They used to have little bit different. They used to have little bit different. They used to have services particularly for services particularly for services particularly for uh primarily African Americans in the uh primarily African Americans in the uh primarily African Americans in the South. They didn't have a lot of money South. They didn't have a lot of money South. They didn't have a lot of money and so they couldn't go to church every and so they couldn't go to church every and so they couldn't go to church every Sunday.

Sunday. Sunday. And so church was every other Sunday. And so church was every other Sunday. And so church was every other Sunday. So, he started a church, they met every So, he started a church, they met every So, he started a church, they met every first and third Sunday. And first and third Sunday. And first and third Sunday. And uh because he just felt a call and a uh because he just felt a call and a uh because he just felt a call and a demand for the word of God, he started demand for the word of God, he started demand for the word of God, he started his second church, which met on second his second church, which met on second his second church, which met on second and fourth Sundays. And so the two and fourth Sundays. And so the two and fourth Sundays. And so the two churches were about 20 miles from each churches were about 20 miles from each churches were about 20 miles from each other. And so on first and third Sunday, other. And so on first and third Sunday, other. And so on first and third Sunday, he would preach at one, second and he would preach at one, second and he would preach at one, second and fourth Sunday, he would preach at the fourth Sunday, he would preach at the fourth Sunday, he would preach at the other. other. other. And both of these churches began to grow And both of these churches began to grow And both of these churches began to grow as he began to teach the word of God and as he began to teach the word of God and as he began to teach the word of God and people started to get transformed and people started to get transformed and people started to get transformed and really started to break generational really started to break generational really started to break generational curses and generational chains off of curses and generational chains off of curses and generational chains off of their lives. And so their lives. And so their lives. And so uh my dad uh my dad uh my dad grew up going to those churches and grew up going to those churches and grew up going to those churches and eventually played eventually played eventually played the organ for my grandfather. And he the organ for my grandfather. And he the organ for my grandfather. And he felt a call of God uh on his life and my felt a call of God uh on his life and my felt a call of God uh on his life and my mom and they mom and they mom and they ended up taking over a small Baptist ended up taking over a small Baptist ended up taking over a small Baptist church in the same little city that my church in the same little city that my church in the same little city that my grandfather was in, called Creedmoor. grandfather was in, called Creedmoor. grandfather was in, called Creedmoor. And at the time, the Baptist church had And at the time, the Baptist church had And at the time, the Baptist church had about 34 members.

about 34 members. about 34 members. What ended up happening, they got a hold What ended up happening, they got a hold What ended up happening, they got a hold of some of the teachings from uh Dr. of some of the teachings from uh Dr. of some of the teachings from uh Dr. Oral Roberts in the late '60s, early Oral Roberts in the late '60s, early Oral Roberts in the late '60s, early '70s. '70s. '70s. And started to hear And started to hear And started to hear about the transformative power of the about the transformative power of the about the transformative power of the Holy Spirit. And so they started to Holy Spirit. And so they started to Holy Spirit. And so they started to teach on the power of the Holy Spirit. teach on the power of the Holy Spirit. teach on the power of the Holy Spirit. And the church And the church And the church uh began to shrink from 34 people and uh began to shrink from 34 people and uh began to shrink from 34 people and the only people that were left was about the only people that were left was about the only people that were left was about nine praying mothers. nine praying mothers. nine praying mothers. And they just began to pray that God And they just began to pray that God And they just began to pray that God would send revival to Creedmoor. would send revival to Creedmoor. would send revival to Creedmoor. And And And sure enough, God began to change that sure enough, God began to change that sure enough, God began to change that city and it grew from nine praying city and it grew from nine praying city and it grew from nine praying mothers to about 150 people over the mothers to about 150 people over the mothers to about 150 people over the course of the next six months. And then course of the next six months. And then course of the next six months. And then that next following year, the church that next following year, the church that next following year, the church jumped to about 500 people. And jumped to about 500 people. And jumped to about 500 people. And uh it continued to grow exponentially uh it continued to grow exponentially uh it continued to grow exponentially from 500 people to 1,000. And so they from 500 people to 1,000. And so they from 500 people to 1,000. And so they outgrew the small Baptist church that outgrew the small Baptist church that outgrew the small Baptist church that they were in they were in they were in and uh started to develop about and uh started to develop about and uh started to develop about literally half a mile down the same literally half a mile down the same literally half a mile down the same street that the church was on, what they street that the church was on, what they street that the church was on, what they would call the life center.

would call the life center. would call the life center. Uh and this life center would serve a Uh and this life center would serve a Uh and this life center would serve a couple of purposes in the community. couple of purposes in the community. couple of purposes in the community. One, it would be a larger auditorium to One, it would be a larger auditorium to One, it would be a larger auditorium to fit the people. fit the people. fit the people. Two, it would be a gymnasium when it's Two, it would be a gymnasium when it's Two, it would be a gymnasium when it's not being used for church uh to kind of not being used for church uh to kind of not being used for church uh to kind of serve the youth in the community because serve the youth in the community because serve the youth in the community because there was nothing in Creedmoor there was nothing in Creedmoor there was nothing in Creedmoor for youth to do at that time. for youth to do at that time. for youth to do at that time. And they ended up going into this life And they ended up going into this life And they ended up going into this life center and the church continued to grow. center and the church continued to grow. center and the church continued to grow. So, it jumped from 1,000 to 2,000 and So, it jumped from 1,000 to 2,000 and So, it jumped from 1,000 to 2,000 and then from 2,000 to about 4,000. And we then from 2,000 to about 4,000. And we then from 2,000 to about 4,000. And we were having in that in that particular were having in that in that particular were having in that in that particular life center, five services a Sunday. life center, five services a Sunday. life center, five services a Sunday. And uh they went on global television on And uh they went on global television on And uh they went on global television on a number of different uh Christian a number of different uh Christian a number of different uh Christian television networks, uh TVN, INSP back television networks, uh TVN, INSP back television networks, uh TVN, INSP back in the day, the Golden Eagle Network. Uh in the day, the Golden Eagle Network. Uh in the day, the Golden Eagle Network. Uh and God just continued to grow the and God just continued to grow the and God just continued to grow the church and people would drive from all church and people would drive from all church and people would drive from all over uh the East Coast to come to Sunday over uh the East Coast to come to Sunday over uh the East Coast to come to Sunday services and to hear about godly services and to hear about godly services and to hear about godly marriage, to hear how to steward marriage, to hear how to steward marriage, to hear how to steward finances, to hear about how to steward finances, to hear about how to steward finances, to hear about how to steward families well, which families well, which families well, which uh in the '70s and '80s wasn't something uh in the '70s and '80s wasn't something uh in the '70s and '80s wasn't something that a lot of churches was teaching at that a lot of churches was teaching at that a lot of churches was teaching at the time.

the time. the time. And uh it it just became it just began And uh it it just became it just began And uh it it just became it just began to kind of snowball and the church in a to kind of snowball and the church in a to kind of snowball and the church in a town of 1400 people grew to about 12,000 town of 1400 people grew to about 12,000 town of 1400 people grew to about 12,000 people. people. people. Where's Creedmoor? Creedmoor is right Where's Creedmoor? Creedmoor is right Where's Creedmoor? Creedmoor is right outside of Raleigh, Durham area. So it outside of Raleigh, Durham area. So it outside of Raleigh, Durham area. So it was considered to be the outskirts, but was considered to be the outskirts, but was considered to be the outskirts, but we call it the countryside. In the we call it the countryside. In the we call it the countryside. In the countryside, yeah. So you're in the countryside, yeah. So you're in the countryside, yeah. So you're in the South. South. South. >> Oh yeah, we we are deep in the South and >> Oh yeah, we we are deep in the South and >> Oh yeah, we we are deep in the South and growing up we had one stop sign in growing up we had one stop sign in growing up we had one stop sign in Creedmoor and Creedmoor and Creedmoor and we we got a stoplight and that was like, we we got a stoplight and that was like, we we got a stoplight and that was like, man, we're turning into a metropolitan man, we're turning into a metropolitan man, we're turning into a metropolitan city. It was it was huge news. city. It was it was huge news. city. It was it was huge news. Tim, I wanted to start there because my Tim, I wanted to start there because my Tim, I wanted to start there because my first degree is history political first degree is history political first degree is history political science and I studied sharecropping. science and I studied sharecropping. science and I studied sharecropping. And it's very easy to think, oh that's a And it's very easy to think, oh that's a And it's very easy to think, oh that's a 19th century thing, you know, we're well 19th century thing, you know, we're well 19th century thing, you know, we're well removed from it. We're so much more removed from it. We're so much more removed from it. We're so much more enlightened, but the fact that that was enlightened, but the fact that that was enlightened, but the fact that that was your grandfather your grandfather your grandfather >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and your father was shaped by it. You and your father was shaped by it. You and your father was shaped by it. You know, the older I get, my parents are know, the older I get, my parents are know, the older I get, my parents are circa World War II. circa World War II. circa World War II. They were born into the war. My They were born into the war. My They were born into the war. My grandparents were early 20th century.

grandparents were early 20th century. grandparents were early 20th century. But I think about how their experiences But I think about how their experiences But I think about how their experiences in Europe during the war in Europe during the war in Europe during the war probably had an impact on me even though probably had an impact on me even though probably had an impact on me even though I was born in North America, you know, I was born in North America, you know, I was born in North America, you know, in the '60s. That stuff lives in the '60s. That stuff lives in the '60s. That stuff lives Absolutely. generationally. Absolutely. generationally. Absolutely. generationally. How How has that shaped you because it How How has that shaped you because it How How has that shaped you because it is very tempting to think, oh that's is very tempting to think, oh that's is very tempting to think, oh that's like ancient history. That's Abraham like ancient history. That's Abraham like ancient history. That's Abraham Lincoln, right? Like But no, we're Lincoln, right? Like But no, we're Lincoln, right? Like But no, we're sitting here talking today as two people sitting here talking today as two people sitting here talking today as two people very much alive in the, you know, first very much alive in the, you know, first very much alive in the, you know, first quarter of the 21st century quarter of the 21st century quarter of the 21st century and this is in your consciousness and and this is in your consciousness and and this is in your consciousness and memory. Absolutely. Yeah, it it memory. Absolutely. Yeah, it it memory. Absolutely. Yeah, it it shaped a lot about my upbringing. shaped a lot about my upbringing. shaped a lot about my upbringing. And so my grandfather and I were very And so my grandfather and I were very And so my grandfather and I were very close and close and close and my father ended up passing when he was my father ended up passing when he was my father ended up passing when he was 52 the day after my 18th birthday and so 52 the day after my 18th birthday and so 52 the day after my 18th birthday and so after he transitioned and went home to after he transitioned and went home to after he transitioned and went home to be with the Lord my grandfather was like be with the Lord my grandfather was like be with the Lord my grandfather was like my second father. So the stories that he my second father. So the stories that he my second father. So the stories that he would share just even, would share just even, would share just even, you know, geographically the area that you know, geographically the area that you know, geographically the area that we stayed in, we stayed in, we stayed in, one of the larger KKK headquarters was one of the larger KKK headquarters was one of the larger KKK headquarters was about 2 miles from our church. And so we about 2 miles from our church. And so we about 2 miles from our church. And so we were around this quite a bit growing up were around this quite a bit growing up were around this quite a bit growing up and and and the South in the '80s and '90s, the South in the '80s and '90s, the South in the '80s and '90s, it wasn't too far removed from intense it wasn't too far removed from intense it wasn't too far removed from intense and severe racism. As a matter of fact and severe racism. As a matter of fact and severe racism. As a matter of fact my younger brother, my younger brother, my younger brother, his high school still had segregated his high school still had segregated his high school still had segregated proms up until he graduated. And so

proms up until he graduated. And so proms up until he graduated. And so it was still there. it was still there. it was still there. >> That was what? In the In the '90s, >> That was what? In the In the '90s, >> That was what? In the In the '90s, 2000s? 2000s? 2000s? >> No, no, this is >> No, no, this is >> No, no, this is Man, this is 2016. Yeah, so Yeah, so >> Like yesterday? Yesterday. >> Like yesterday? Yesterday. >> Like yesterday? Yesterday. >> it's very very recent and so there's >> it's very very recent and so there's >> it's very very recent and so there's And so And so And so we still drive down the street there. we still drive down the street there. we still drive down the street there. You still see You still see You still see a lot of racist rhetoric. You still see a lot of racist rhetoric. You still see a lot of racist rhetoric. You still see a lot of Confederate flags. You still a lot of Confederate flags. You still a lot of Confederate flags. You still still a lot of that in that particular still a lot of that in that particular still a lot of that in that particular area. And And so it's one of those area. And And so it's one of those area. And And so it's one of those things where it gives us an opportunity things where it gives us an opportunity things where it gives us an opportunity to really share the gospel and the love to really share the gospel and the love to really share the gospel and the love of Jesus Christ in the face of Jesus Christ in the face of Jesus Christ in the face of that kind of tension. of that kind of tension. of that kind of tension. And for our church, we opened a school And for our church, we opened a school And for our church, we opened a school that kind of ran alongside of our that kind of ran alongside of our that kind of ran alongside of our church. And so our church and our school church. And so our church and our school church. And so our church and our school served a lot of the community and in served a lot of the community and in served a lot of the community and in that community we had an opportunity to that community we had an opportunity to that community we had an opportunity to serve the grandchildren of some of the serve the grandchildren of some of the serve the grandchildren of some of the KKK leaders. And that to me was a very KKK leaders. And that to me was a very KKK leaders. And that to me was a very beautiful thing. There's nothing that beautiful thing. There's nothing that beautiful thing. There's nothing that demonstrates the love of Jesus Christ demonstrates the love of Jesus Christ demonstrates the love of Jesus Christ more than knowing someone hates you, but more than knowing someone hates you, but more than knowing someone hates you, but being able to feed being able to feed being able to feed them food and being able to give their them food and being able to give their them food and being able to give their grandkids a Christian education so that grandkids a Christian education so that grandkids a Christian education so that they know they know they know what the love of Christ really looks what the love of Christ really looks what the love of Christ really looks like. And so it wasn't something that like. And so it wasn't something that like. And so it wasn't something that was far off and distant for for me.

was far off and distant for for me. was far off and distant for for me. Something that was very present in our Something that was very present in our Something that was very present in our community and something that shaped who community and something that shaped who community and something that shaped who I am today hearing the stories of my I am today hearing the stories of my I am today hearing the stories of my grandfather, hearing the stories of my grandfather, hearing the stories of my grandfather, hearing the stories of my my mom and my dad who, you know, growing my mom and my dad who, you know, growing my mom and my dad who, you know, growing up when they heard a car they knew they up when they heard a car they knew they up when they heard a car they knew they knew to run and hide because it was knew to run and hide because it was knew to run and hide because it was probably probably probably driven by someone who wanted to do harm driven by someone who wanted to do harm driven by someone who wanted to do harm to them. And so, you know, understanding to them. And so, you know, understanding to them. And so, you know, understanding that and understanding that and understanding that and understanding that although things have changed that although things have changed that although things have changed drastically, drastically, drastically, there's still a lot of that tension there's still a lot of that tension there's still a lot of that tension in the South and in in the areas that in the South and in in the areas that in the South and in in the areas that we grew up in. we grew up in. we grew up in. You're doing ministry in Jacksonville You're doing ministry in Jacksonville You're doing ministry in Jacksonville right now, which I think by most right now, which I think by most right now, which I think by most accounts there's sort of a line that accounts there's sort of a line that accounts there's sort of a line that goes through Florida. A lot of people goes through Florida. A lot of people goes through Florida. A lot of people say North Florida is still the South. say North Florida is still the South. say North Florida is still the South. Would you agree with that? Disagree with Would you agree with that? Disagree with Would you agree with that? Disagree with that? that? that? >> I do. We we consider >> I do. We we consider >> I do. We we consider North Florida to be South Georgia. And North Florida to be South Georgia. And North Florida to be South Georgia. And so there's there's quite a bit of different pockets there's quite a bit of different pockets in the North Florida area. in the North Florida area. in the North Florida area. And you know, there's there's some of And you know, there's there's some of And you know, there's there's some of that tension there, but not as prominent that tension there, but not as prominent that tension there, but not as prominent and prevalent as it is kind of in the and prevalent as it is kind of in the and prevalent as it is kind of in the sticks of North Carolina. Yeah.

sticks of North Carolina. Yeah. sticks of North Carolina. Yeah. How does that all of what we just talked How does that all of what we just talked How does that all of what we just talked about about about shape your thinking even today? Like shape your thinking even today? Like shape your thinking even today? Like What What are What's the part of that What What are What's the part of that What What are What's the part of that that nobody sitting in my shoes that nobody sitting in my shoes that nobody sitting in my shoes or most of our listeners would really or most of our listeners would really or most of our listeners would really understand? understand? understand? Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean, raising raising raising a young boy who is 8 years old, me and a young boy who is 8 years old, me and a young boy who is 8 years old, me and my wife, and understanding some of the my wife, and understanding some of the my wife, and understanding some of the challenges, some of the difficulties he challenges, some of the difficulties he challenges, some of the difficulties he will face growing up in a world and in a will face growing up in a world and in a will face growing up in a world and in a region that region that region that quite frankly won't like him because of quite frankly won't like him because of quite frankly won't like him because of the way that he looks. It gives both me the way that he looks. It gives both me the way that he looks. It gives both me and my wife, who by the way is Canadian, and my wife, who by the way is Canadian, and my wife, who by the way is Canadian, opportunity to, opportunity to, opportunity to, you know, steward him where he sees you know, steward him where he sees you know, steward him where he sees the love of Christ and knows how to the love of Christ and knows how to the love of Christ and knows how to demonstrate that even against demonstrate that even against demonstrate that even against opposition. And so it's something that I opposition. And so it's something that I opposition. And so it's something that I think about often, think about often, think about often, but also from the perspective, I don't but also from the perspective, I don't but also from the perspective, I don't want him to grow up afraid. I don't want want him to grow up afraid. I don't want want him to grow up afraid. I don't want him to grow up fearful.

him to grow up fearful. him to grow up fearful. I don't want him to grow up with this I don't want him to grow up with this I don't want him to grow up with this skewed perspective that everyone is skewed perspective that everyone is skewed perspective that everyone is against him against him against him because that's not the case. But to make because that's not the case. But to make because that's not the case. But to make him aware that there will be people that him aware that there will be people that him aware that there will be people that he comes across that will treat him he comes across that will treat him he comes across that will treat him differently because differently because differently because of how he looks. And so of how he looks. And so of how he looks. And so it's one of those things that I can't it's one of those things that I can't it's one of those things that I can't get away from. I can't get out of my get away from. I can't get out of my get away from. I can't get out of my skin and I can't get out of the way that skin and I can't get out of the way that skin and I can't get out of the way that I look. But I look. But I look. But what I can do is control my reactions what I can do is control my reactions what I can do is control my reactions and my response. And so I may not be and my response. And so I may not be and my response. And so I may not be able to control what other people say or able to control what other people say or able to control what other people say or do or how they treat me, but I can do or how they treat me, but I can do or how they treat me, but I can control how I respond and react. And so control how I respond and react. And so control how I respond and react. And so for us it's making sure that we raise for us it's making sure that we raise for us it's making sure that we raise a young boy that knows how to respond a young boy that knows how to respond a young boy that knows how to respond and react in the face of adversity. and react in the face of adversity. and react in the face of adversity. How's that playing out in your church at How's that playing out in your church at How's that playing out in your church at Celebration Church? You know, you lead a Celebration Church? You know, you lead a Celebration Church? You know, you lead a very large church. We'll get into some very large church. We'll get into some very large church. We'll get into some of the story Yeah. behind Celebration in of the story Yeah. behind Celebration in of the story Yeah. behind Celebration in a little bit. But when you think about a little bit. But when you think about a little bit. But when you think about the kind of community you're trying to the kind of community you're trying to the kind of community you're trying to create how and and this is a note for create how and and this is a note for create how and and this is a note for all of us. How do we do a better job of all of us. How do we do a better job of all of us. How do we do a better job of cuz you're right. If anybody has a shot cuz you're right. If anybody has a shot cuz you're right. If anybody has a shot at changing the reality of racial hatred at changing the reality of racial hatred at changing the reality of racial hatred and division, it's the church. Like and division, it's the church. Like and division, it's the church. Like if it isn't the church, I don't know if it isn't the church, I don't know if it isn't the church, I don't know what is cuz everything else seems to what is cuz everything else seems to what is cuz everything else seems to have failed, right?

have failed, right? have failed, right? So how are you How does that impact how So how are you How does that impact how So how are you How does that impact how you're trying to shape the church that you're trying to shape the church that you're trying to shape the church that you're responsible for leading? you're responsible for leading? you're responsible for leading? Yeah, I I think for us what we are Yeah, I I think for us what we are Yeah, I I think for us what we are trying to steward is a church that is a trying to steward is a church that is a trying to steward is a church that is a reflection of heaven. And a lot of times reflection of heaven. And a lot of times reflection of heaven. And a lot of times leaders think, okay, if it's a leaders think, okay, if it's a leaders think, okay, if it's a predominantly black church, if I put predominantly black church, if I put predominantly black church, if I put somebody white on stage, it will attract somebody white on stage, it will attract somebody white on stage, it will attract white people. Or if it's a predominantly white people. Or if it's a predominantly white people. Or if it's a predominantly white church, if I put somebody black on white church, if I put somebody black on white church, if I put somebody black on stage, it will attract black people. And stage, it will attract black people. And stage, it will attract black people. And that's simply not the case. I think our that's simply not the case. I think our that's simply not the case. I think our dinner tables should reflect the church dinner tables should reflect the church dinner tables should reflect the church that we desire to see. that we desire to see. that we desire to see. I think that our relationships should I think that our relationships should I think that our relationships should reflect the type of churches that we reflect the type of churches that we reflect the type of churches that we desire to see. desire to see. desire to see. And so if we're not engaging And so if we're not engaging And so if we're not engaging in cultural differences in our homes and in cultural differences in our homes and in cultural differences in our homes and in our relationships, then we can't in our relationships, then we can't in our relationships, then we can't anticipate and expect to see diversity anticipate and expect to see diversity anticipate and expect to see diversity not just in ethnicity, but also in age not just in ethnicity, but also in age not just in ethnicity, but also in age in our churches. in our churches. in our churches. And so that's been one of the things And so that's been one of the things And so that's been one of the things that we have that we have that we have really leaned into over the last three really leaned into over the last three really leaned into over the last three or four years being very intentional or four years being very intentional or four years being very intentional with our personal relationships, me and with our personal relationships, me and with our personal relationships, me and my wife Jen, to be a reflection of the my wife Jen, to be a reflection of the my wife Jen, to be a reflection of the church that we want to steward. And I'm church that we want to steward. And I'm church that we want to steward. And I'm honored that our church is as diverse as honored that our church is as diverse as honored that our church is as diverse as it is it is it is in both ethnicities and generations. So in both ethnicities and generations. So in both ethnicities and generations. So we serve four generations of people and we serve four generations of people and we serve four generations of people and we have a spectrum of all ethnicities we have a spectrum of all ethnicities we have a spectrum of all ethnicities and backgrounds reflected in our church.

and backgrounds reflected in our church. and backgrounds reflected in our church. One of the most diverse churches I've One of the most diverse churches I've One of the most diverse churches I've ever seen and God has allowed us and ever seen and God has allowed us and ever seen and God has allowed us and awarded us the opportunity to steward awarded us the opportunity to steward awarded us the opportunity to steward it. So it's pretty humbling. it. So it's pretty humbling. it. So it's pretty humbling. Why doesn't just putting, you know, if Why doesn't just putting, you know, if Why doesn't just putting, you know, if I'm a white lead pastor, why does uh I'm a white lead pastor, why does uh I'm a white lead pastor, why does uh hiring a black communicator or, you hiring a black communicator or, you hiring a black communicator or, you know, an Asian or brown communicator, know, an Asian or brown communicator, know, an Asian or brown communicator, why does that not change why does that not change why does that not change the reality for people? the reality for people? the reality for people? I think it doesn't change people's I think it doesn't change people's I think it doesn't change people's reality reality reality most of the time. It it it most of the time. It it it most of the time. It it it Now, that can work depending on Now, that can work depending on Now, that can work depending on where the church is located, but it may where the church is located, but it may where the church is located, but it may not be sustainable for long periods of not be sustainable for long periods of not be sustainable for long periods of time. time. time. But the majority of the time it doesn't But the majority of the time it doesn't But the majority of the time it doesn't work work work because there's still no genuine because there's still no genuine because there's still no genuine relationship between that person and relationship between that person and relationship between that person and whoever whoever whoever is the lead steward or leader of that is the lead steward or leader of that is the lead steward or leader of that church. And so if the leader does not church. And so if the leader does not church. And so if the leader does not engage in meaningful heartfelt engage in meaningful heartfelt engage in meaningful heartfelt conversations to figure out, okay, what conversations to figure out, okay, what conversations to figure out, okay, what is it that this person has that I don't is it that this person has that I don't is it that this person has that I don't have that they can offer to a community have that they can offer to a community have that they can offer to a community of people that we desire to be here. If of people that we desire to be here. If of people that we desire to be here. If those conversations aren't being had, those conversations aren't being had, those conversations aren't being had, then it's it's, you know, temporary. And then it's it's, you know, temporary. And then it's it's, you know, temporary. And so, for a leader, I can only take people so, for a leader, I can only take people so, for a leader, I can only take people to the last place that I've been.

to the last place that I've been. to the last place that I've been. And what I mean by that And what I mean by that And what I mean by that is Moses could not take the children of is Moses could not take the children of is Moses could not take the children of Israel into the promised land because he Israel into the promised land because he Israel into the promised land because he did not go there. He took them to the did not go there. He took them to the did not go there. He took them to the desert because it was the last place desert because it was the last place desert because it was the last place that he had been. that he had been. that he had been. Um and so, if my table does not look Um and so, if my table does not look Um and so, if my table does not look like like like uh the congregation, the community, or uh the congregation, the community, or uh the congregation, the community, or the church that I want to see, then I the church that I want to see, then I the church that I want to see, then I will end up taking people back to the will end up taking people back to the will end up taking people back to the last place that I've been. And so, I I last place that I've been. And so, I I last place that I've been. And so, I I believe that believe that believe that uh it may be short-lived for people to uh it may be short-lived for people to uh it may be short-lived for people to put figureheads or, you know, just put figureheads or, you know, just put figureheads or, you know, just people of different ethnicities on people of different ethnicities on people of different ethnicities on stage, platform them, but if those stage, platform them, but if those stage, platform them, but if those people don't have the heart of that people don't have the heart of that people don't have the heart of that church, it may end up doing more damage church, it may end up doing more damage church, it may end up doing more damage than it does good. And that's what I've than it does good. And that's what I've than it does good. And that's what I've seen a lot of times. Uh someone someone seen a lot of times. Uh someone someone seen a lot of times. Uh someone someone is plugged into a position because of is plugged into a position because of is plugged into a position because of how how how uh they look and not necessarily the uh they look and not necessarily the uh they look and not necessarily the purpose that God has given them for that purpose that God has given them for that purpose that God has given them for that community. community. community. When you're creating a church that When you're creating a church that When you're creating a church that really reflects the community, it means really reflects the community, it means really reflects the community, it means you've got, you know, a variety of you've got, you know, a variety of you've got, you know, a variety of situations. You've got single people, situations. You've got single people, situations. You've got single people, you've got second marriages, third you've got second marriages, third you've got second marriages, third marriages, recent divorces, you've got marriages, recent divorces, you've got marriages, recent divorces, you've got all kinds of different people from all all kinds of different people from all all kinds of different people from all kinds of different walks. You've been kinds of different walks. You've been kinds of different walks. You've been pretty transparent about your life, and pretty transparent about your life, and pretty transparent about your life, and your first marriage didn't work out the your first marriage didn't work out the your first marriage didn't work out the way you hoped it would. Can you tell us way you hoped it would. Can you tell us way you hoped it would. Can you tell us that story and what you learned from it that story and what you learned from it that story and what you learned from it as someone who feels a call to ministry?

as someone who feels a call to ministry? as someone who feels a call to ministry? Absolutely. Yeah, so when I was 20 years Absolutely. Yeah, so when I was 20 years Absolutely. Yeah, so when I was 20 years old, um old, um old, um uh stepped into my first marriage as a uh stepped into my first marriage as a uh stepped into my first marriage as a pastor. And uh a very young and very on pastor. And uh a very young and very on pastor. And uh a very young and very on fire for Jesus Christ. And, you know, I fire for Jesus Christ. And, you know, I fire for Jesus Christ. And, you know, I made the mistake of marrying someone for made the mistake of marrying someone for made the mistake of marrying someone for me and not necessarily marrying someone me and not necessarily marrying someone me and not necessarily marrying someone for my purpose. for my purpose. for my purpose. Um and what ended up happening was Um and what ended up happening was Um and what ended up happening was uh when I got running in my purpose, I uh when I got running in my purpose, I uh when I got running in my purpose, I was was was a pretty young lead pastor at 20 years a pretty young lead pastor at 20 years a pretty young lead pastor at 20 years old leading old leading old leading a church that was a church that was a church that was uh a good size. And when I got good into uh a good size. And when I got good into uh a good size. And when I got good into stride into leading that church, uh my stride into leading that church, uh my stride into leading that church, uh my ex-wife at the time ex-wife at the time ex-wife at the time uh had no desire to be in ministry, a uh had no desire to be in ministry, a uh had no desire to be in ministry, a part of ministry, part of ministry, part of ministry, uh even to follow Jesus at that uh even to follow Jesus at that uh even to follow Jesus at that particular time. And so, it left me in a particular time. And so, it left me in a particular time. And so, it left me in a situation now where I'm leading and situation now where I'm leading and situation now where I'm leading and stewarding this church. Uh I am stewarding this church. Uh I am stewarding this church. Uh I am um um um having to do so uh from this position having to do so uh from this position having to do so uh from this position of, man, I am bleeding and I am gutted of, man, I am bleeding and I am gutted of, man, I am bleeding and I am gutted and I am wounded, but at the same time and I am wounded, but at the same time and I am wounded, but at the same time understanding that there's people coming understanding that there's people coming understanding that there's people coming every Sunday every Sunday every Sunday uh that are kind of in the same uh that are kind of in the same uh that are kind of in the same predicament that I am in.

predicament that I am in. predicament that I am in. Um and so, Um and so, Um and so, uh I ended up getting a divorce uh I ended up getting a divorce uh I ended up getting a divorce uh not long after uh not long after uh not long after uh 25. uh 25. uh 25. Um and from that particular point Um and from that particular point Um and from that particular point forward, my mentality was uh I would forward, my mentality was uh I would forward, my mentality was uh I would rather be single than settle. And rather be single than settle. And rather be single than settle. And uh I want to help as many people as uh I want to help as many people as uh I want to help as many people as possible to know Jesus and to know that possible to know Jesus and to know that possible to know Jesus and to know that he's a healer he's a healer he's a healer uh while at the same time uh while at the same time uh while at the same time understanding that I needed to be understanding that I needed to be understanding that I needed to be healed, understanding that my heart healed, understanding that my heart healed, understanding that my heart needed to be healed. Uh my emotions needed to be healed. Uh my emotions needed to be healed. Uh my emotions needed to be healed. And so, I went on needed to be healed. And so, I went on needed to be healed. And so, I went on this journey caring for this journey caring for this journey caring for uh the next few years of uh the next few years of uh the next few years of uh therapy and discovering who uh therapy and discovering who uh therapy and discovering who Christ wanted me to be. Christ wanted me to be. Christ wanted me to be. And uh you know, in doing so, I started And uh you know, in doing so, I started And uh you know, in doing so, I started to discover there were a lot of people to discover there were a lot of people to discover there were a lot of people in in in uh church and in my community that had uh church and in my community that had uh church and in my community that had walked through divorce. And they came walked through divorce. And they came walked through divorce. And they came out on the other end pretty fine after out on the other end pretty fine after out on the other end pretty fine after season. season. season. Um and, you know, life looked Um and, you know, life looked Um and, you know, life looked differently. And there were certain differently. And there were certain differently. And there were certain aspects of life that looked much better.

aspects of life that looked much better. aspects of life that looked much better. And after a while, when I started uh to And after a while, when I started uh to And after a while, when I started uh to see, man, I'm still here and God has a see, man, I'm still here and God has a see, man, I'm still here and God has a plan for me that is still uh plan for me that is still uh plan for me that is still uh significant, significant, significant, uh I started to really uh I started to really uh I started to really uh turn the page in my life and ask God uh turn the page in my life and ask God uh turn the page in my life and ask God the question, okay, what do you want the question, okay, what do you want the question, okay, what do you want from me? And I'll be honest with you, from me? And I'll be honest with you, from me? And I'll be honest with you, when I'm when I was asking God that when I'm when I was asking God that when I'm when I was asking God that question, marriage wasn't, you know, question, marriage wasn't, you know, question, marriage wasn't, you know, something I had on my radar. something I had on my radar. something I had on my radar. And in 2014, I went to New York. And in 2014, I went to New York. And in 2014, I went to New York. And uh I went there with one of my And uh I went there with one of my And uh I went there with one of my closest friends, and closest friends, and closest friends, and uh I was uh I was uh I was there for my publicist at the time there for my publicist at the time there for my publicist at the time uh because I had a book coming out. And uh because I had a book coming out. And uh because I had a book coming out. And a friend of mine who I had just met via a friend of mine who I had just met via a friend of mine who I had just met via social media invited me to a conference social media invited me to a conference social media invited me to a conference that they were hosting. that they were hosting. that they were hosting. And the night before, they had this this And the night before, they had this this And the night before, they had this this kind of get-together kind of get-together kind of get-together uh uh uh uh for all of the mutual friends that he uh for all of the mutual friends that he uh for all of the mutual friends that he had invited. And I saw this Canadian had invited. And I saw this Canadian had invited. And I saw this Canadian girl kind of across the way, and uh he girl kind of across the way, and uh he girl kind of across the way, and uh he introduced us, and she started to talk introduced us, and she started to talk introduced us, and she started to talk to me about what I did to me about what I did to me about what I did uh because of the title of my book at uh because of the title of my book at uh because of the title of my book at the time, and I told her I was a pastor.

the time, and I told her I was a pastor. the time, and I told her I was a pastor. And kind of in her disbelief and shock, And kind of in her disbelief and shock, And kind of in her disbelief and shock, she was like, there's no way this guy is she was like, there's no way this guy is she was like, there's no way this guy is a pastor, you know, he can't be a a pastor, you know, he can't be a a pastor, you know, he can't be a pastor. He looks too attractive. pastor. He looks too attractive. pastor. He looks too attractive. >> called? Which book was that? It was >> called? Which book was that? It was >> called? Which book was that? It was called Abandoned at the time, and it's called Abandoned at the time, and it's called Abandoned at the time, and it's laying aside your plans for God's laying aside your plans for God's laying aside your plans for God's purpose. purpose. purpose. And uh you know, it was one of the the And uh you know, it was one of the the And uh you know, it was one of the the nights There's these moments in our nights There's these moments in our nights There's these moments in our life, I truly believe this, life, I truly believe this, life, I truly believe this, that mark us, change us, and we never that mark us, change us, and we never that mark us, change us, and we never forget them. It was so unexpected, uh so forget them. It was so unexpected, uh so forget them. It was so unexpected, uh so uh uh uh kind of out of the blue. kind of out of the blue. kind of out of the blue. Uh but I remember the conversation like Uh but I remember the conversation like Uh but I remember the conversation like it was yesterday. it was yesterday. it was yesterday. And uh And uh And uh we we met, we had a short exchange, we we met, we had a short exchange, we we met, we had a short exchange, and we didn't see each other except for and we didn't see each other except for and we didn't see each other except for at this conference, and it was probably at this conference, and it was probably at this conference, and it was probably 1,500 people there. 1,500 people there. 1,500 people there. And I looked across the aisle to my And I looked across the aisle to my And I looked across the aisle to my left, and she was sitting one complete left, and she was sitting one complete left, and she was sitting one complete section over, and she was with her section over, and she was with her section over, and she was with her identical twin sister. identical twin sister. identical twin sister. Uh but they didn't they didn't look Uh but they didn't they didn't look Uh but they didn't they didn't look identical because her identical twin identical because her identical twin identical because her identical twin sister at the time had bleach blonde sister at the time had bleach blonde sister at the time had bleach blonde hair. So, I knew the the difference hair. So, I knew the the difference hair. So, I knew the the difference between them.

between them. between them. >> who was who? I knew who was who. >> who was who? I knew who was who. >> who was who? I knew who was who. And uh and so, I was just magnetically And uh and so, I was just magnetically And uh and so, I was just magnetically attracted to her, and I didn't push it, attracted to her, and I didn't push it, attracted to her, and I didn't push it, didn't didn't ask her for her number, didn't didn't ask her for her number, didn't didn't ask her for her number, anything like that. And we left the anything like that. And we left the anything like that. And we left the conference conference conference uh without exchanging any uh without exchanging any uh without exchanging any uh contact information, but all of us uh contact information, but all of us uh contact information, but all of us were on this group text together. It was were on this group text together. It was were on this group text together. It was about 22 of us. about 22 of us. about 22 of us. And what ended up happening was 2 months And what ended up happening was 2 months And what ended up happening was 2 months later, uh later, uh later, uh someone in the group text sent out a someone in the group text sent out a someone in the group text sent out a message asking message asking message asking were we coming back to another were we coming back to another were we coming back to another conference that was being held in New conference that was being held in New conference that was being held in New York. York. York. And wouldn't you know it, her and her And wouldn't you know it, her and her And wouldn't you know it, her and her sister were going to be coming to that sister were going to be coming to that sister were going to be coming to that conference. Now, the odds of this was conference. Now, the odds of this was conference. Now, the odds of this was pretty pretty slim because at the time pretty pretty slim because at the time pretty pretty slim because at the time she was staying in the Bay Area of she was staying in the Bay Area of she was staying in the Bay Area of California, and uh her sister was back California, and uh her sister was back California, and uh her sister was back in Vancouver. in Vancouver. in Vancouver. And so, And so, And so, uh this great migration happened when uh this great migration happened when uh this great migration happened when this group got back together. And as we this group got back together. And as we this group got back together. And as we got back together, man, it was just got back together, man, it was just got back together, man, it was just something special about her. I knew something special about her. I knew something special about her. I knew uh you know, that not only was it a uh you know, that not only was it a uh you know, that not only was it a magnetic draw towards her, but this is magnetic draw towards her, but this is magnetic draw towards her, but this is someone that I desired to spend the rest someone that I desired to spend the rest someone that I desired to spend the rest of my life with.

of my life with. of my life with. And so, uh I didn't push it, didn't try And so, uh I didn't push it, didn't try And so, uh I didn't push it, didn't try to, you know, work my plan, and and you to, you know, work my plan, and and you to, you know, work my plan, and and you know, lay down some incredible know, lay down some incredible know, lay down some incredible uh you know, bars of pleasantries, uh you know, bars of pleasantries, uh you know, bars of pleasantries, Carrie. Didn't try to do any of that. Carrie. Didn't try to do any of that. Carrie. Didn't try to do any of that. And uh we left New York, and she ended And uh we left New York, and she ended And uh we left New York, and she ended up texting me and asking could she call up texting me and asking could she call up texting me and asking could she call me. And I told her yes. And unbeknownst me. And I told her yes. And unbeknownst me. And I told her yes. And unbeknownst to me, she was going through uh one of to me, she was going through uh one of to me, she was going through uh one of the most difficult seasons of her life. the most difficult seasons of her life. the most difficult seasons of her life. And uh she had tried to get in contact And uh she had tried to get in contact And uh she had tried to get in contact with a few other people, and no one with a few other people, and no one with a few other people, and no one uh was either picking up or responding. uh was either picking up or responding. uh was either picking up or responding. And it was the first time she heard the And it was the first time she heard the And it was the first time she heard the audible voice of God tell her audible voice of God tell her audible voice of God tell her to to to text me. And so, the first time she text me. And so, the first time she text me. And so, the first time she hears from God, it's about me. And hears from God, it's about me. And hears from God, it's about me. And that's how I knew that's how I knew that's how I knew >> Well, that's a that's a pretty good >> Well, that's a that's a pretty good >> Well, that's a that's a pretty good deal, Tim. Like, not many people get deal, Tim. Like, not many people get deal, Tim. Like, not many people get that. that. that. >> Man. I did not get that. >> Man. I did not get that. >> Man. I did not get that. >> That that is how I knew I am a true >> That that is how I knew I am a true >> That that is how I knew I am a true servant of the most high God. If he servant of the most high God. If he servant of the most high God. If he would audibly speak to her about me, I would audibly speak to her about me, I would audibly speak to her about me, I must not be doing bad at all. And so, must not be doing bad at all. And so, must not be doing bad at all. And so, he speaks to her, she texts me instead he speaks to her, she texts me instead he speaks to her, she texts me instead of calling, so there's, you know, some of calling, so there's, you know, some of calling, so there's, you know, some subtle disobedience there on her part, subtle disobedience there on her part, subtle disobedience there on her part, but but but uh you know, nonetheless, she was uh you know, nonetheless, she was uh you know, nonetheless, she was partially obedient. I happened to be up partially obedient. I happened to be up partially obedient. I happened to be up at that particular time cuz she was on at that particular time cuz she was on at that particular time cuz she was on the West Coast. It was pretty late West the West Coast. It was pretty late West the West Coast. It was pretty late West Coast time, which means it was even Coast time, which means it was even Coast time, which means it was even later East Coast time. I'm a night owl, later East Coast time. I'm a night owl, later East Coast time. I'm a night owl, and that night I just happened to be up and that night I just happened to be up and that night I just happened to be up praying. And I mean, it was one of those praying. And I mean, it was one of those praying. And I mean, it was one of those things that only God could align. And we

things that only God could align. And we things that only God could align. And we ended up talking for 3 hours. She called ended up talking for 3 hours. She called ended up talking for 3 hours. She called me crying, she gets off the phone me crying, she gets off the phone me crying, she gets off the phone laughing. And I told her laughing. And I told her laughing. And I told her uh when we when we were getting off the uh when we when we were getting off the uh when we when we were getting off the phone, I want to FaceTime you tomorrow phone, I want to FaceTime you tomorrow phone, I want to FaceTime you tomorrow to make sure that you're okay. It's hard to make sure that you're okay. It's hard to make sure that you're okay. It's hard for me to see for me to see for me to see that you're okay if I can't see you. And that you're okay if I can't see you. And that you're okay if I can't see you. And we ended up FaceTiming every single day we ended up FaceTiming every single day we ended up FaceTiming every single day uh up until we got married. And outside uh up until we got married. And outside uh up until we got married. And outside of Jesus Christ, the best decision I've of Jesus Christ, the best decision I've of Jesus Christ, the best decision I've made in my life. made in my life. made in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's incredible. I mean, it's it's >> That's incredible. I mean, it's it's >> That's incredible. I mean, it's it's great to see that. I want to go back uh great to see that. I want to go back uh great to see that. I want to go back uh because this is a leadership podcast. because this is a leadership podcast. because this is a leadership podcast. >> Yeah. You're not the only leader who's >> Yeah. You're not the only leader who's >> Yeah. You're not the only leader who's been through a season where you're been through a season where you're been through a season where you're bleeding. bleeding. bleeding. How do you lead when you're bleeding? Um How do you lead when you're bleeding? Um How do you lead when you're bleeding? Um what like cuz that sounded like that what like cuz that sounded like that what like cuz that sounded like that might have been a 5-6 year window. Yes. might have been a 5-6 year window. Yes. might have been a 5-6 year window. Yes. It was a it was a long time. Yeah. So, It was a it was a long time. Yeah. So, It was a it was a long time. Yeah. So, there's some people right now who are there's some people right now who are there's some people right now who are bleeding, and maybe it's not their bleeding, and maybe it's not their bleeding, and maybe it's not their marriage, maybe it is their marriage. marriage, maybe it is their marriage. marriage, maybe it is their marriage. Maybe it's whatever. I mean, Maybe it's whatever. I mean, Maybe it's whatever. I mean, conventional wisdom would be step aside, conventional wisdom would be step aside, conventional wisdom would be step aside, heal, whatever. What did you learn about heal, whatever. What did you learn about heal, whatever. What did you learn about leading while you're bleeding in that leading while you're bleeding in that leading while you're bleeding in that season.

season. season. Yeah, and so I learned a lot about the Yeah, and so I learned a lot about the Yeah, and so I learned a lot about the power of Jesus in that season. power of Jesus in that season. power of Jesus in that season. And I learned a lot about uh how much he And I learned a lot about uh how much he And I learned a lot about uh how much he cares for us, but specifically how much cares for us, but specifically how much cares for us, but specifically how much he cared for me because he would give me he cared for me because he would give me he cared for me because he would give me the strength to continue to lead as I the strength to continue to lead as I the strength to continue to lead as I was bleeding, as I was uh going through was bleeding, as I was uh going through was bleeding, as I was uh going through the various difficulties, the various the various difficulties, the various the various difficulties, the various pains when I helped other people uh to pains when I helped other people uh to pains when I helped other people uh to stop bleeding in the various situations stop bleeding in the various situations stop bleeding in the various situations and circumstances uh that they were and circumstances uh that they were and circumstances uh that they were trying to navigate. And to be honest trying to navigate. And to be honest trying to navigate. And to be honest with you, with you, with you, uh for all of our leaders that are uh for all of our leaders that are uh for all of our leaders that are leaning into this moment, there very few leaning into this moment, there very few leaning into this moment, there very few seasons that we're not bleeding. seasons that we're not bleeding. seasons that we're not bleeding. Uh Uh Uh you know you know you know >> about something. I'm I'm telling you. >> about something. I'm I'm telling you. >> about something. I'm I'm telling you. And and so the thing that I had to be And and so the thing that I had to be And and so the thing that I had to be very careful of doing though, very careful of doing though, very careful of doing though, I had to be very careful not to teach I had to be very careful not to teach I had to be very careful not to teach and preach from a wound. and preach from a wound. and preach from a wound. I had to teach and preach from a scar. I had to teach and preach from a scar. I had to teach and preach from a scar. And so in those seasons where we are And so in those seasons where we are And so in those seasons where we are bleeding, in those seasons where we are bleeding, in those seasons where we are bleeding, in those seasons where we are in pain, uh not to utilize those in pain, uh not to utilize those in pain, uh not to utilize those opportunities opportunities opportunities uh to bring other people into the wound.

uh to bring other people into the wound. uh to bring other people into the wound. Uh but to allow God to heal that area, Uh but to allow God to heal that area, Uh but to allow God to heal that area, allow him to provide healing balm for allow him to provide healing balm for allow him to provide healing balm for that area, and then teach from a scar. that area, and then teach from a scar. that area, and then teach from a scar. And so that's what I tried to do in that And so that's what I tried to do in that And so that's what I tried to do in that season. And uh allow God to work in me season. And uh allow God to work in me season. And uh allow God to work in me and work out of me everything that was and work out of me everything that was and work out of me everything that was not a reflection uh of him. But I not a reflection uh of him. But I not a reflection uh of him. But I discovered his tender mercy, his care, discovered his tender mercy, his care, discovered his tender mercy, his care, uh his love uh for me in that season. uh his love uh for me in that season. uh his love uh for me in that season. And um you know, when you're going And um you know, when you're going And um you know, when you're going through moments and you're going through through moments and you're going through through moments and you're going through seasons like that, seasons like that, seasons like that, uh you often feel alone. Leadership in uh you often feel alone. Leadership in uh you often feel alone. Leadership in and of itself is a very lonely journey. and of itself is a very lonely journey. and of itself is a very lonely journey. Well, but then based upon the Well, but then based upon the Well, but then based upon the compounding pain, you start to look compounding pain, you start to look compounding pain, you start to look around and ask yourself the question, is around and ask yourself the question, is around and ask yourself the question, is there anyone else leading that's there anyone else leading that's there anyone else leading that's navigating pain like this? navigating pain like this? navigating pain like this? And that's when it gets uh even And that's when it gets uh even And that's when it gets uh even lonelier. And so I had to throw myself lonelier. And so I had to throw myself lonelier. And so I had to throw myself into community. Uh I had myself into community. Uh I had myself into community. Uh I had myself surrounded with godly men and women surrounded with godly men and women surrounded with godly men and women uh who had navigated uh similar pains uh who had navigated uh similar pains uh who had navigated uh similar pains and similar heartbreak and similar uh and similar heartbreak and similar uh and similar heartbreak and similar uh heart aches heart aches heart aches uh to just infuse me with hope on a uh to just infuse me with hope on a uh to just infuse me with hope on a daily and weekly basis and let me know, daily and weekly basis and let me know, daily and weekly basis and let me know, "Hey, God did this for me and he surely "Hey, God did this for me and he surely "Hey, God did this for me and he surely would do the same uh for you." And so I would do the same uh for you." And so I would do the same uh for you." And so I would encourage those leaders that are would encourage those leaders that are would encourage those leaders that are listening and watching right now that listening and watching right now that listening and watching right now that may be hemorrhaging and may be bleeding.

may be hemorrhaging and may be bleeding. may be hemorrhaging and may be bleeding. Uh get to a place Uh get to a place Uh get to a place uh that can pour back into you as you uh that can pour back into you as you uh that can pour back into you as you pour out into God's people pour out into God's people pour out into God's people uh while you're navigating this season. uh while you're navigating this season. uh while you're navigating this season. And it's okay to take time for yourself. And it's okay to take time for yourself. And it's okay to take time for yourself. It is okay to go get healthy. It is okay It is okay to go get healthy. It is okay It is okay to go get healthy. It is okay to go through a process of both grieving to go through a process of both grieving to go through a process of both grieving what was lost and healing what God what was lost and healing what God what was lost and healing what God desires to renew and to restore. desires to renew and to restore. desires to renew and to restore. And so as leaders, we don't do that And so as leaders, we don't do that And so as leaders, we don't do that enough. We try to push through it, we enough. We try to push through it, we enough. We try to push through it, we try to lead through it, we don't take try to lead through it, we don't take try to lead through it, we don't take time for ourselves. And one of the time for ourselves. And one of the time for ourselves. And one of the greatest weapons the enemy uses is to greatest weapons the enemy uses is to greatest weapons the enemy uses is to keep us busy instead of uh

God, I have these people, but who has God, I have these people, but who has me? And who is walking with me? Who is me? And who is walking with me? Who is me? And who is walking with me? Who is on this journey with me? Who is on this journey with me? Who is on this journey with me? Who is navigating this with me?" navigating this with me?" navigating this with me?" Uh and it was at that particular time uh Uh and it was at that particular time uh Uh and it was at that particular time uh very few people. very few people. very few people. Um and um you know, I had family and I Um and um you know, I had family and I Um and um you know, I had family and I had a small group of of had a small group of of had a small group of of community relationships and friendships. community relationships and friendships. community relationships and friendships. Uh but I just felt like, "Man, I need Uh but I just felt like, "Man, I need Uh but I just felt like, "Man, I need something different or I need something something different or I need something something different or I need something more that I just wasn't finding." And more that I just wasn't finding." And more that I just wasn't finding." And sometimes it's seasonal. Sometimes God sometimes it's seasonal. Sometimes God sometimes it's seasonal. Sometimes God has you in a position and in a place has you in a position and in a place has you in a position and in a place where you are uh intentionally by where you are uh intentionally by where you are uh intentionally by yourself so that you can hear who he is yourself so that you can hear who he is yourself so that you can hear who he is making you into being. And for some of making you into being. And for some of making you into being. And for some of us, that's exactly where he wants us. us, that's exactly where he wants us. us, that's exactly where he wants us. And then for others of us, he has to And then for others of us, he has to And then for others of us, he has to position us there for a short season to position us there for a short season to position us there for a short season to refill us so that we can go out and refill us so that we can go out and refill us so that we can go out and continue to pour into other people. continue to pour into other people. continue to pour into other people. Did you lose friends in that season? A Did you lose friends in that season? A Did you lose friends in that season? A lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost lot of people drop you. Oh man, I lost tons of friends. I lost you know, most tons of friends. I lost you know, most tons of friends. I lost you know, most of them were ministry friendships, which of them were ministry friendships, which of them were ministry friendships, which you know Exactly. That's a whole you know Exactly. That's a whole you know Exactly. That's a whole different podcast episode in and of different podcast episode in and of different podcast episode in and of itself. But you know, people who don't itself. But you know, people who don't itself. But you know, people who don't know you per se, people that know your know you per se, people that know your know you per se, people that know your gift.

gift. gift. And And And Yeah, and so Yeah, and so Yeah, and so >> Oh man. >> Oh man. >> Oh man. Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, Oh man, Tim. Yeah, they don't know you, they know your gift. they know your gift. they know your gift. >> And they know your gift. And when they >> And they know your gift. And when they >> And they know your gift. And when they think that you no longer need them for think that you no longer need them for think that you no longer need them for your gift setting, then they put your gift setting, then they put your gift setting, then they put distance between you and them. And so distance between you and them. And so distance between you and them. And so what I had to find out the the the hard what I had to find out the the the hard what I had to find out the the the hard way way way is often times people only want you is often times people only want you is often times people only want you around when you have a need for them. around when you have a need for them. around when you have a need for them. And uh when that need is no longer And uh when that need is no longer And uh when that need is no longer of value in their perspective, they put of value in their perspective, they put of value in their perspective, they put distance between you and them. And so I distance between you and them. And so I distance between you and them. And so I found out very quickly who respected my found out very quickly who respected my found out very quickly who respected my gift in that season and who respected me gift in that season and who respected me gift in that season and who respected me as a person. as a person. as a person. And so there's something valuable, and And so there's something valuable, and And so there's something valuable, and this is for those that are leaning into this is for those that are leaning into this is for those that are leaning into this moment with us. There's something this moment with us. There's something this moment with us. There's something valuable about discovering valuable about discovering valuable about discovering the difference between you and your the difference between you and your the difference between you and your gift. gift. gift. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And when you discover that you are not >> And when you discover that you are not >> And when you discover that you are not what you do.

what you do. what you do. And in that season, I got a revelation And in that season, I got a revelation And in that season, I got a revelation of that. I got an understanding of that. of that. I got an understanding of that. of that. I got an understanding of that. I am not what I do. And I value what I I am not what I do. And I value what I I am not what I do. And I value what I do. I honor God for the gift that he's do. I honor God for the gift that he's do. I honor God for the gift that he's given me of what he is asking me to given me of what he is asking me to given me of what he is asking me to carry out. But who I am is not what I carry out. But who I am is not what I carry out. But who I am is not what I do. Who I am at at at do. Who I am at at at do. Who I am at at at at the very pinnacle of who I am, I am a at the very pinnacle of who I am, I am a at the very pinnacle of who I am, I am a son of God first. son of God first. son of God first. I am a son of God first. That is who I I am a son of God first. That is who I I am a son of God first. That is who I am. The second thing I am, I'm a godly am. The second thing I am, I'm a godly am. The second thing I am, I'm a godly husband to my wife. The third thing I husband to my wife. The third thing I husband to my wife. The third thing I am, I'm a great father to our son. am, I'm a great father to our son. am, I'm a great father to our son. And and then everything after that is And and then everything after that is And and then everything after that is viewed from the perspective of sonship. viewed from the perspective of sonship. viewed from the perspective of sonship. It's viewed from the perspective of It's viewed from the perspective of It's viewed from the perspective of leadership of in my home. And that gives leadership of in my home. And that gives leadership of in my home. And that gives me the opportunity to operate in the me the opportunity to operate in the me the opportunity to operate in the purpose and the gift that God has placed purpose and the gift that God has placed purpose and the gift that God has placed before me of leading other people. And before me of leading other people. And before me of leading other people. And so if I'm not leading myself to the feet so if I'm not leading myself to the feet so if I'm not leading myself to the feet of Jesus to know myself as a son of God of Jesus to know myself as a son of God of Jesus to know myself as a son of God first, then I will always look for my first, then I will always look for my first, then I will always look for my identity in the things that God has uh identity in the things that God has uh identity in the things that God has uh allowed me to place my hands on. And allowed me to place my hands on. And allowed me to place my hands on. And that's fleeting. And so uh the that's fleeting. And so uh the that's fleeting. And so uh the relationships that were in my life at relationships that were in my life at relationships that were in my life at that time based upon what I did and how that time based upon what I did and how that time based upon what I did and how well I did it, all of those well I did it, all of those well I did it, all of those relationships were gone.

relationships were gone. relationships were gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you learned that lesson in your 20s. So you learned that lesson in your 20s. So you learned that lesson in your 20s. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that there are a lot of people. I think that there are a lot of people. I think that there are a lot of people. I am learning that lesson. I am learning that lesson. I am learning that lesson. >> Mhm. You know, I'm not what I do. >> Mhm. You know, I'm not what I do. >> Mhm. You know, I'm not what I do. But it's very tempting, particularly if But it's very tempting, particularly if But it's very tempting, particularly if you do something that you really love you do something that you really love you do something that you really love and it's gone well, and it's gone well, and it's gone well, uh it's very hard to separate your, you uh it's very hard to separate your, you uh it's very hard to separate your, you know, who you are from what you do. know, who you are from what you do. know, who you are from what you do. That's just it's almost like an add That's just it's almost like an add That's just it's almost like an add ministry into the mix, you got a wholly ministry into the mix, you got a wholly ministry into the mix, you got a wholly toxic cocktail. And it's instant. toxic cocktail. And it's instant. toxic cocktail. And it's instant. >> Cuz it's so confusing. >> Cuz it's so confusing. >> Cuz it's so confusing. I want you to play a game of I want you to play a game of I want you to play a game of extrapolation. So I want you to imagine extrapolation. So I want you to imagine extrapolation. So I want you to imagine that you hadn't learned that lesson at that you hadn't learned that lesson at that you hadn't learned that lesson at 25, 28, whenever really began to sink 25, 28, whenever really began to sink 25, 28, whenever really began to sink its teeth into you. its teeth into you. its teeth into you. Fast forward to where you are now. Fast forward to where you are now. Fast forward to where you are now. Who might you have become? What might Who might you have become? What might Who might you have become? What might have happened to you? If you didn't have happened to you? If you didn't have happened to you? If you didn't learn that lesson between who you are learn that lesson between who you are learn that lesson between who you are and what you do in your 20s. and what you do in your 20s. and what you do in your 20s. I I think I would have become a person I I think I would have become a person I I think I would have become a person that was driven by that was driven by that was driven by uh uh uh outward success.

outward success. outward success. Would have buried myself in ministry Would have buried myself in ministry Would have buried myself in ministry because that's where my identity would because that's where my identity would because that's where my identity would have been rooted. have been rooted. have been rooted. Um I think that I would have become a Um I think that I would have become a Um I think that I would have become a person person person uh uh uh that was a people pleaser uh because that was a people pleaser uh because that was a people pleaser uh because um to a person that is really lost, um to a person that is really lost, um to a person that is really lost, having other people affirm who they having other people affirm who they having other people affirm who they think you are is pleasing. think you are is pleasing. think you are is pleasing. Uh I think I would have become a person Uh I think I would have become a person Uh I think I would have become a person that believed that comfort and that believed that comfort and that believed that comfort and convenience was covering convenience was covering convenience was covering um when in fact it is not. um when in fact it is not. um when in fact it is not. Uh and so I think Uh and so I think Uh and so I think that that could have been who I had that that could have been who I had that that could have been who I had become as a leader become as a leader become as a leader um that God has allowed to serve other um that God has allowed to serve other um that God has allowed to serve other people. And I'm so glad that that was people. And I'm so glad that that was people. And I'm so glad that that was not the end result. And I'm so glad in a not the end result. And I'm so glad in a not the end result. And I'm so glad in a very beautiful way very beautiful way very beautiful way that I encountered, I stewarded, and that I encountered, I stewarded, and that I encountered, I stewarded, and went through the pain went through the pain went through the pain early in leadership that I went through.

early in leadership that I went through. early in leadership that I went through. Because it prepared me for other pain Because it prepared me for other pain Because it prepared me for other pain points on this leadership journey. points on this leadership journey. points on this leadership journey. What have some other pain points been What have some other pain points been What have some other pain points been for you since then? for you since then? for you since then? Uh on record today, Uh on record today, Uh on record today, I I I was probably a part of, along with my was probably a part of, along with my was probably a part of, along with my wife, one of the worst church wife, one of the worst church wife, one of the worst church transitions in church history. Well, I transitions in church history. Well, I transitions in church history. Well, I wanted to go there, so let's go there. wanted to go there, so let's go there. wanted to go there, so let's go there. Yeah, let's talk about that. We're an Yeah, let's talk about that. We're an Yeah, let's talk about that. We're an open book. We're taking notes. open book. We're taking notes. open book. We're taking notes. >> Uh and so, I mean, just historically >> Uh and so, I mean, just historically >> Uh and so, I mean, just historically speaking, speaking, speaking, uh and you know this because you are a uh and you know this because you are a uh and you know this because you are a historian, I have not seen a transition historian, I have not seen a transition historian, I have not seen a transition go this horribly bad before. Mhm. go this horribly bad before. Mhm. go this horribly bad before. Mhm. Um in modern history. I'm sure there are Um in modern history. I'm sure there are Um in modern history. I'm sure there are are other scenarios and cases of um are other scenarios and cases of um are other scenarios and cases of um worse than what we have had to navigate worse than what we have had to navigate worse than what we have had to navigate and steward. and steward. and steward. Uh but when you think of drama, when you Uh but when you think of drama, when you Uh but when you think of drama, when you think of think of think of uh all of the things that could have uh all of the things that could have uh all of the things that could have gone wrong, gone wrong, gone wrong, they happened and unfolded in our they happened and unfolded in our they happened and unfolded in our transition.

transition. transition. >> getting ready for this interview on it >> getting ready for this interview on it >> getting ready for this interview on it cuz I missed it when the news cycle was cuz I missed it when the news cycle was cuz I missed it when the news cycle was fresh. fresh. fresh. I live in a bubble, I guess, but my I live in a bubble, I guess, but my I live in a bubble, I guess, but my goodness. Do you want to give us, for goodness. Do you want to give us, for goodness. Do you want to give us, for those who may not be familiar with the those who may not be familiar with the those who may not be familiar with the situation, without situation, without situation, without you know, this isn't a place I like you know, this isn't a place I like you know, this isn't a place I like throwing people under the bus, but I throwing people under the bus, but I throwing people under the bus, but I like naming the issues, and you know the like naming the issues, and you know the like naming the issues, and you know the difference, right? So, with difference, right? So, with difference, right? So, with with, you know, what what happened? Cuz with, you know, what what happened? Cuz with, you know, what what happened? Cuz it's it is crazy. it's it is crazy. it's it is crazy. >> Yeah, yeah, you know, here I sit to kind >> Yeah, yeah, you know, here I sit to kind >> Yeah, yeah, you know, here I sit to kind of scratch my head and ask myself that of scratch my head and ask myself that of scratch my head and ask myself that question. But question. But question. But >> Yeah, what happened? Yeah, yeah, >> Yeah, what happened? Yeah, yeah, >> Yeah, what happened? Yeah, yeah, I think I think I think you know, you know, you know, um um um I I think that I I think that I I think that a part of what happened was the loss of a part of what happened was the loss of a part of what happened was the loss of identity for the founders of the church. identity for the founders of the church. identity for the founders of the church. That That That >> So, they had led the church for how many >> So, they had led the church for how many >> So, they had led the church for how many years? It was decades, right? years? It was decades, right? years? It was decades, right? >> Yeah, and had to had been at the time >> Yeah, and had to had been at the time >> Yeah, and had to had been at the time 18, 19 years. 18, 19 years. 18, 19 years. Um I think that they hit a wall and Um I think that they hit a wall and Um I think that they hit a wall and could not get past that and hit a level could not get past that and hit a level could not get past that and hit a level of leadership burnout that they uh were of leadership burnout that they uh were of leadership burnout that they uh were not expecting and anticipating, and not expecting and anticipating, and not expecting and anticipating, and uh felt like they just could not take uh felt like they just could not take uh felt like they just could not take the church forward. And so, they prayed the church forward. And so, they prayed the church forward. And so, they prayed about who God would desire to take the about who God would desire to take the about who God would desire to take the church forward. They church forward. They church forward. They uh both heard from God that it was both uh both heard from God that it was both uh both heard from God that it was both me and my wife. They reached out to us me and my wife. They reached out to us me and my wife. They reached out to us and asked us, would we and asked us, would we and asked us, would we uh consider transitioning the church?

uh consider transitioning the church? uh consider transitioning the church? And originally, we said no. We had no And originally, we said no. We had no And originally, we said no. We had no desire to do that. Um we were fulfilling desire to do that. Um we were fulfilling desire to do that. Um we were fulfilling the call of God at that time in North the call of God at that time in North the call of God at that time in North Carolina, at the church that my parents Carolina, at the church that my parents Carolina, at the church that my parents started. started. started. Right. And were you the same stream, Right. And were you the same stream, Right. And were you the same stream, like same not denomination, it's like same not denomination, it's like same not denomination, it's non-denominational, but you were in like non-denominational, but you were in like non-denominational, but you were in like similar similar similar Were you in similar circles? At that Were you in similar circles? At that Were you in similar circles? At that time? Yes and no. Um and so, we had time? Yes and no. Um and so, we had time? Yes and no. Um and so, we had uh some mutual friends and uh some mutual friends and uh some mutual friends and acquaintances, but hadn't spent a lot of acquaintances, but hadn't spent a lot of acquaintances, but hadn't spent a lot of time together. time together. time together. Um we had been um probably aware of each Um we had been um probably aware of each Um we had been um probably aware of each other at that particular time other at that particular time other at that particular time for about a year. for about a year. for about a year. Um Um Um >> Okay. But you got invited into it. This >> Okay. But you got invited into it. This >> Okay. But you got invited into it. This wasn't, "Hey, the elders called, here's wasn't, "Hey, the elders called, here's wasn't, "Hey, the elders called, here's a mop, here's a bucket, clean it up." a mop, here's a bucket, clean it up." a mop, here's a bucket, clean it up." This was supposed to be a seamless This was supposed to be a seamless This was supposed to be a seamless succession. succession. succession. >> Absolutely. And unbeknownst to us, >> Absolutely. And unbeknownst to us, >> Absolutely. And unbeknownst to us, no one else knew about the succession no one else knew about the succession no one else knew about the succession plan plan plan uh on their leadership team or their uh on their leadership team or their uh on their leadership team or their board. board. board. >> Oh. So, the board didn't know, leaders >> Oh. So, the board didn't know, leaders >> Oh. So, the board didn't know, leaders didn't know, church didn't know.

didn't know, church didn't know. didn't know, church didn't know. >> Yeah, so we just we we >> Yeah, so we just we we >> Yeah, so we just we we um were told this, you know, had been um were told this, you know, had been um were told this, you know, had been prayed through and and kind of bounced prayed through and and kind of bounced prayed through and and kind of bounced around this leadership team. And what around this leadership team. And what around this leadership team. And what ended up happening, we got invited to ended up happening, we got invited to ended up happening, we got invited to come and speak there. And so, while we come and speak there. And so, while we come and speak there. And so, while we were there, just kind of doing a little were there, just kind of doing a little were there, just kind of doing a little observation, and observation, and observation, and uh the people that were hosting us were uh the people that were hosting us were uh the people that were hosting us were pretty close to us. And so, we were just pretty close to us. And so, we were just pretty close to us. And so, we were just kind of asking them, uh you know, how kind of asking them, uh you know, how kind of asking them, uh you know, how are you guys feeling? How are you guys are you guys feeling? How are you guys are you guys feeling? How are you guys processing? And they were completely processing? And they were completely processing? And they were completely unaware. They're like, "We don't know unaware. They're like, "We don't know unaware. They're like, "We don't know what in the world you're talking about." what in the world you're talking about." what in the world you're talking about." So, I was like, "Okay, that's that's a So, I was like, "Okay, that's that's a So, I was like, "Okay, that's that's a pretty big red flag. pretty big red flag. pretty big red flag. But not big enough in my spirit to the But not big enough in my spirit to the But not big enough in my spirit to the point where we were going to say no. And point where we were going to say no. And point where we were going to say no. And so, what we committed to doing was so, what we committed to doing was so, what we committed to doing was praying through it over the next year. praying through it over the next year. praying through it over the next year. And we prayed through it for 6 months, And we prayed through it for 6 months, And we prayed through it for 6 months, didn't hear anything, didn't sense didn't hear anything, didn't sense didn't hear anything, didn't sense anything, didn't feel anything from God. anything, didn't feel anything from God. anything, didn't feel anything from God. And it wasn't until about the 9-month And it wasn't until about the 9-month And it wasn't until about the 9-month mark uh that we both me and my wife had mark uh that we both me and my wife had mark uh that we both me and my wife had this uncommon peace.

this uncommon peace. this uncommon peace. And I remember And I remember And I remember uh I was upstairs, she was downstairs, uh I was upstairs, she was downstairs, uh I was upstairs, she was downstairs, and I kind of came downstairs, and uh my and I kind of came downstairs, and uh my and I kind of came downstairs, and uh my wife's name is Jennifer. I call her Jen. wife's name is Jennifer. I call her Jen. wife's name is Jennifer. I call her Jen. I said, "I have this uncommon peace I said, "I have this uncommon peace I said, "I have this uncommon peace about Jacksonville." And she said, "You about Jacksonville." And she said, "You about Jacksonville." And she said, "You know what? I was praying. I have the know what? I was praying. I have the know what? I was praying. I have the same peace." And our prayer was that God same peace." And our prayer was that God same peace." And our prayer was that God would give us would give us would give us uh an undeniable sign that this is what uh an undeniable sign that this is what uh an undeniable sign that this is what he wanted us to do. And you know, at he wanted us to do. And you know, at he wanted us to do. And you know, at that particular time, I had walked with that particular time, I had walked with that particular time, I had walked with God long enough that if he gave us that God long enough that if he gave us that God long enough that if he gave us that level of uncommon peace, then he would level of uncommon peace, then he would level of uncommon peace, then he would give us direction and clarity to follow. give us direction and clarity to follow. give us direction and clarity to follow. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And sure enough, God just started giving >> And sure enough, God just started giving >> And sure enough, God just started giving us undeniable signs and and and us undeniable signs and and and us undeniable signs and and and undeniable things that we knew were kind undeniable things that we knew were kind undeniable things that we knew were kind of God winks that this is what he wanted of God winks that this is what he wanted of God winks that this is what he wanted us to do. us to do. us to do. And so, we moved down to Jacksonville, And so, we moved down to Jacksonville, And so, we moved down to Jacksonville, uh and um you know, I joined the staff uh and um you know, I joined the staff uh and um you know, I joined the staff in 2020. in 2020. in 2020. [Music] [Music] [Music] Uh both me and my wife were leading Uh both me and my wife were leading Uh both me and my wife were leading uh the Jacksonville location, and then uh the Jacksonville location, and then uh the Jacksonville location, and then COVID happened.

COVID happened. COVID happened. Uh and so, everything kind of gets shut Uh and so, everything kind of gets shut Uh and so, everything kind of gets shut down in the states for a period of time. down in the states for a period of time. down in the states for a period of time. Uh we were in Florida, and so Florida is Uh we were in Florida, and so Florida is Uh we were in Florida, and so Florida is like a different country in the US. like a different country in the US. like a different country in the US. Yeah, it is. It is just a different Yeah, it is. It is just a different Yeah, it is. It is just a different beast. And so, we weren't shut down that beast. And so, we weren't shut down that beast. And so, we weren't shut down that long, but by the time we started long, but by the time we started long, but by the time we started gathering again, gathering again, gathering again, uh the only communicator at the time uh the only communicator at the time uh the only communicator at the time that people had seen was me. that people had seen was me. that people had seen was me. Uh and so, you know, it was just a Uh and so, you know, it was just a Uh and so, you know, it was just a completely different church. Uh the completely different church. Uh the completely different church. Uh the landscape of church landscape of church landscape of church uh was just completely different for all uh was just completely different for all uh was just completely different for all pastors and leaders that navigated and pastors and leaders that navigated and pastors and leaders that navigated and had to steward COVID. had to steward COVID. had to steward COVID. >> Uh and so, you throw >> Uh and so, you throw >> Uh and so, you throw >> been the exclusive communicator during >> been the exclusive communicator during >> been the exclusive communicator during shutdown? shutdown? shutdown? >> Absolutely. And so, you know, you you >> Absolutely. And so, you know, you you >> Absolutely. And so, you know, you you throw that on top of transition, throw that on top of transition, throw that on top of transition, uh it is just a completely different uh it is just a completely different uh it is just a completely different >> And was the transition happening then >> And was the transition happening then >> And was the transition happening then when you moved down, or when you moved down, or when you moved down, or >> It was supposed to happen, but there was >> It was supposed to happen, but there was >> It was supposed to happen, but there was no no no >> hadn't happened yet. >> hadn't happened yet. >> hadn't happened yet. >> It was no transition. So, they they >> It was no transition. So, they they >> It was no transition. So, they they didn't see didn't see didn't see uh the former founders uh the former founders uh the former founders uh until 2 years later. And that was uh until 2 years later. And that was uh until 2 years later. And that was once before the official transition once before the official transition once before the official transition service, which was in September of 2022.

service, which was in September of 2022. service, which was in September of 2022. So, 2 years radio silence from the So, 2 years radio silence from the So, 2 years radio silence from the founders. founders. founders. No public presence. You're kind of just, No public presence. You're kind of just, No public presence. You're kind of just, as they'd say in law, de facto. as they'd say in law, de facto. as they'd say in law, de facto. >> Yeah. Without the title, without the >> Yeah. Without the title, without the >> Yeah. Without the title, without the whatever, without the announcement, whatever, without the announcement, whatever, without the announcement, you're just functioning as lead pastor. you're just functioning as lead pastor. you're just functioning as lead pastor. Yeah. For 2 years. 2 years. The Yeah. For 2 years. 2 years. The Yeah. For 2 years. 2 years. The transition service is a transition transition service is a transition transition service is a transition service. service. service. >> let's pick up the story now. Yeah. Stay >> let's pick up the story now. Yeah. Stay >> let's pick up the story now. Yeah. Stay tuned next week. Yeah. Yeah, so that tuned next week. Yeah. Yeah, so that tuned next week. Yeah. Yeah, so that happens. Uh transition service happens. happens. Uh transition service happens. happens. Uh transition service happens. Uh they set us in Uh they set us in Uh they set us in >> end of 2022, transition >> end of 2022, transition >> end of 2022, transition >> End of end of 2022. >> End of end of 2022. >> End of end of 2022. Uh they set us in Uh they set us in Uh they set us in as senior pastors with the board, uh as senior pastors with the board, uh as senior pastors with the board, uh leaders of the church, uh a very public leaders of the church, uh a very public leaders of the church, uh a very public service. Uh as a matter of fact, still service. Uh as a matter of fact, still service. Uh as a matter of fact, still on YouTube today. on YouTube today. on YouTube today. Wow. Uh Wow. Uh Wow. Uh and then that December, and then that December, and then that December, uh I'm not sure kind of what happened, uh I'm not sure kind of what happened, uh I'm not sure kind of what happened, but something happened uh where they uh but something happened uh where they uh but something happened uh where they uh decided they never said that they were decided they never said that they were decided they never said that they were transitioning out of leadership. They transitioning out of leadership. They transitioning out of leadership. They never said that they uh were stepping never said that they uh were stepping never said that they uh were stepping away from the church. Despite the fact away from the church. Despite the fact away from the church. Despite the fact that the service had happened, still that the service had happened, still that the service had happened, still still on YouTube. Public declaration.

still on YouTube. Public declaration. still on YouTube. Public declaration. >> I'm telling you, it very public >> I'm telling you, it very public >> I'm telling you, it very public transition service, very public transition service, very public transition service, very public statements, very public statements, very public statements, very public uh decisions. Uh and so, uh decisions. Uh and so, uh decisions. Uh and so, uh it got to a point where they started uh it got to a point where they started uh it got to a point where they started to try to move board members to try to move board members to try to move board members uh from the board so that they could uh from the board so that they could uh from the board so that they could regain control of the church again. And regain control of the church again. And regain control of the church again. And so, the board at that particular time so, the board at that particular time so, the board at that particular time opened up an investigation opened up an investigation opened up an investigation and found out that there had been money and found out that there had been money and found out that there had been money misappropriated by them misappropriated by them misappropriated by them uh for quite a period of time. By the uh for quite a period of time. By the uh for quite a period of time. By the founders or by the incumbents, yeah. And founders or by the incumbents, yeah. And founders or by the incumbents, yeah. And so, so, so, uh after that happened, then they uh after that happened, then they uh after that happened, then they decided to sue the church decided to sue the church decided to sue the church uh for defamation for releasing that uh for defamation for releasing that uh for defamation for releasing that information information information uh that we had to inform the church of. uh that we had to inform the church of. uh that we had to inform the church of. Uh we are new pastors. This is a board Uh we are new pastors. This is a board Uh we are new pastors. This is a board that carries themselves with integrity, that carries themselves with integrity, that carries themselves with integrity, godly character. Um and so, we um godly character. Um and so, we um godly character. Um and so, we um me and my wife just kind of stepped out me and my wife just kind of stepped out me and my wife just kind of stepped out of that, let the board handle that, so of that, let the board handle that, so of that, let the board handle that, so that it wouldn't become an us versus that it wouldn't become an us versus that it wouldn't become an us versus them type of situation scenario. And them type of situation scenario. And them type of situation scenario. And man, they just began to just put the man, they just began to just put the man, they just began to just put the metal to everything that they could to metal to everything that they could to metal to everything that they could to try to tear that church apart.

try to tear that church apart. try to tear that church apart. And uh you know, by the grace of God, And uh you know, by the grace of God, And uh you know, by the grace of God, uh on the heels of COVID, uh you know, uh on the heels of COVID, uh you know, uh on the heels of COVID, uh you know, people started uh to see the difference people started uh to see the difference people started uh to see the difference of what they were saying and what they of what they were saying and what they of what they were saying and what they were seeing. were seeing. were seeing. And our instructions from God was just And our instructions from God was just And our instructions from God was just continue to teach the word of God and continue to teach the word of God and continue to teach the word of God and let the board steward the church well, let the board steward the church well, let the board steward the church well, stay out of all of the nitty-gritty stay out of all of the nitty-gritty stay out of all of the nitty-gritty legal things so that we could focus on legal things so that we could focus on legal things so that we could focus on loving the people and every single day loving the people and every single day loving the people and every single day for an entire year it was the number one for an entire year it was the number one for an entire year it was the number one news cycle in North Florida. And so, for news cycle in North Florida. And so, for news cycle in North Florida. And so, for context, it had been the first time the context, it had been the first time the context, it had been the first time the Jacksonville Jaguars had made the Jacksonville Jaguars had made the Jacksonville Jaguars had made the playoffs since 2017, playoffs since 2017, playoffs since 2017, 2018 season. And it had, 2018 season. And it had, 2018 season. And it had, you know, more engagement, more news you know, more engagement, more news you know, more engagement, more news cycles than that. cycles than that. cycles than that. And so, And so, And so, you know, it was one of those things you know, it was one of those things you know, it was one of those things where we just had to turn the news off, where we just had to turn the news off, where we just had to turn the news off, focus on what God desired to do, focus focus on what God desired to do, focus focus on what God desired to do, focus on people that we were stewarding, the on people that we were stewarding, the on people that we were stewarding, the people that we were leading, and try to people that we were leading, and try to people that we were leading, and try to do so do so do so with a heart pure and hands clean. And with a heart pure and hands clean. And with a heart pure and hands clean. And God continued to send people and God God continued to send people and God God continued to send people and God continued to continued to continued to allow us to serve his people well, and allow us to serve his people well, and allow us to serve his people well, and a bunch of people left and a bunch of a bunch of people left and a bunch of a bunch of people left and a bunch of new people came new people came new people came and and and now we're in a season where a bunch of now we're in a season where a bunch of now we're in a season where a bunch of the people that left the church just the people that left the church just the people that left the church just because they didn't know what was true, because they didn't know what was true, because they didn't know what was true, what was a lie, you know, are coming

what was a lie, you know, are coming what was a lie, you know, are coming back and the church is Well, it always back and the church is Well, it always back and the church is Well, it always goes, man. Yeah, the church is healthy, goes, man. Yeah, the church is healthy, goes, man. Yeah, the church is healthy, it's it's thriving. We are it's it's thriving. We are it's it's thriving. We are growing at an extremely extremely fast growing at an extremely extremely fast growing at an extremely extremely fast and healthy pace, which is a very and healthy pace, which is a very and healthy pace, which is a very beautiful thing to see. Cuz our prayer beautiful thing to see. Cuz our prayer beautiful thing to see. Cuz our prayer through it all was, God, please don't through it all was, God, please don't through it all was, God, please don't allow people to get lost in the cracks allow people to get lost in the cracks allow people to get lost in the cracks through through through he say, she say kind of scenario, he say, she say kind of scenario, he say, she say kind of scenario, but allow your truth to prevail. So, not but allow your truth to prevail. So, not but allow your truth to prevail. So, not even my truth, not their truth, allow even my truth, not their truth, allow even my truth, not their truth, allow your truth to prevail. Allow your word your truth to prevail. Allow your word your truth to prevail. Allow your word to be the final say and to be the final say and to be the final say and whatever you decide, that's what we'll whatever you decide, that's what we'll whatever you decide, that's what we'll follow. And we've just seen God be follow. And we've just seen God be follow. And we've just seen God be faithful and and restore dignity to his faithful and and restore dignity to his faithful and and restore dignity to his bride. bride. bride. I have a thousand questions, Tim. Thank I have a thousand questions, Tim. Thank I have a thousand questions, Tim. Thank you for sharing that the way you did. you for sharing that the way you did. you for sharing that the way you did. Were you tempted to get in the fray, to Were you tempted to get in the fray, to Were you tempted to get in the fray, to say, "This is not true." Like what what say, "This is not true." Like what what say, "This is not true." Like what what How did you know? Where was the line How did you know? Where was the line How did you know? Where was the line between keeping your head down and just between keeping your head down and just between keeping your head down and just preaching next Sunday or getting preaching next Sunday or getting preaching next Sunday or getting involved in the melee for you? Where involved in the melee for you? Where involved in the melee for you? Where where was that line? Yeah, I I think where was that line? Yeah, I I think where was that line? Yeah, I I think because we, you know, me and my wife because we, you know, me and my wife because we, you know, me and my wife have encountered a lot of pain over the have encountered a lot of pain over the have encountered a lot of pain over the course of life.

course of life. course of life. And so, for me, And so, for me, And so, for me, a lot of the pain that I encountered, a a lot of the pain that I encountered, a a lot of the pain that I encountered, a lot of the dumb decisions that I have lot of the dumb decisions that I have lot of the dumb decisions that I have made, made, made, were prior to coming to Christ, being in were prior to coming to Christ, being in were prior to coming to Christ, being in the streets and and being a very angry the streets and and being a very angry the streets and and being a very angry young man growing up and being very young man growing up and being very young man growing up and being very angry with God and being angry with God and being angry with God and being a teen that wanted to do everything he a teen that wanted to do everything he a teen that wanted to do everything he could to make God angry with him. could to make God angry with him. could to make God angry with him. And so, you know, having lived And so, you know, having lived And so, you know, having lived in those seasons and having outlived in those seasons and having outlived in those seasons and having outlived the things that tried to kill me, the things that tried to kill me, the things that tried to kill me, you know, church politics and and church you know, church politics and and church you know, church politics and and church riffraff really didn't move us. And so, riffraff really didn't move us. And so, riffraff really didn't move us. And so, I never was tempted to kind of go back I never was tempted to kind of go back I never was tempted to kind of go back and forth and say, "No, this is actually and forth and say, "No, this is actually and forth and say, "No, this is actually what the truth is." You know, the thing what the truth is." You know, the thing what the truth is." You know, the thing that God instructed us to do is just that God instructed us to do is just that God instructed us to do is just keep your head down, focus on the keep your head down, focus on the keep your head down, focus on the people, love the people, continue to people, love the people, continue to people, love the people, continue to teach my word. And that was our focus teach my word. And that was our focus teach my word. And that was our focus and that's what we did. And you know, as and that's what we did. And you know, as and that's what we did. And you know, as I mentioned before, people begin to see I mentioned before, people begin to see I mentioned before, people begin to see very quickly between the truth and the very quickly between the truth and the very quickly between the truth and the lie.

lie. lie. You didn't have to say it. You didn't have to say it. You didn't have to say it. >> Didn't have to say it, didn't have to >> Didn't have to say it, didn't have to >> Didn't have to say it, didn't have to preach about it. preach about it. preach about it. Didn't have to teach a series on it, Didn't have to teach a series on it, Didn't have to teach a series on it, just continued to do what God had asked just continued to do what God had asked just continued to do what God had asked of us to do and of us to do and of us to do and we started to see our staff get really we started to see our staff get really we started to see our staff get really really healthy. really healthy. really healthy. And you know, most people don't know And you know, most people don't know And you know, most people don't know this, I'll share this here this, I'll share this here this, I'll share this here on this podcast. on this podcast. on this podcast. All but two people on our staff right All but two people on our staff right All but two people on our staff right now are new hires. now are new hires. now are new hires. Everyone else had been there, Everyone else had been there, Everyone else had been there, you know, at least 10 years. Not not a you know, at least 10 years. Not not a you know, at least 10 years. Not not a surprise. Yeah, so. surprise. Yeah, so. surprise. Yeah, so. Yeah, it's just in the beginning Yeah, it's just in the beginning Yeah, it's just in the beginning >> surprise is that two people are still >> surprise is that two people are still >> surprise is that two people are still there from the previous era. That there from the previous era. That there from the previous era. That usually is a a wholesale trans, usually is a a wholesale trans, usually is a a wholesale trans, you know, you know, you know, >> yeah, so >> yeah, so >> yeah, so I mean the the 90 98% of our staff has I mean the the 90 98% of our staff has I mean the the 90 98% of our staff has been there 10 years or more. been there 10 years or more. been there 10 years or more. And so, to see them get healthy and to And so, to see them get healthy and to And so, to see them get healthy and to see them Oh, sorry, I got it backwards. see them Oh, sorry, I got it backwards. see them Oh, sorry, I got it backwards. Most of your staff are long-term staff. Most of your staff are long-term staff. Most of your staff are long-term staff. >> Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

>> Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. >> Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. >> Oh, sorry, I >> Oh, sorry, I >> Oh, sorry, I misheard it. I must have oral dyslexia. misheard it. I must have oral dyslexia. misheard it. I must have oral dyslexia. Oh, that that is a surprise. That is a Oh, that that is a surprise. That is a Oh, that that is a surprise. That is a surprise because 98% of the time it surprise because 98% of the time it surprise because 98% of the time it flips. You got a whole new crew you're flips. You got a whole new crew you're flips. You got a whole new crew you're running with. running with. running with. Wow. How did How did that happen? Wow. How did How did that happen? Wow. How did How did that happen? We just started to discover, man, We just started to discover, man, We just started to discover, man, there's there's there's some some some gold, you know, on the staff that has gold, you know, on the staff that has gold, you know, on the staff that has been undiscovered, you know, people in been undiscovered, you know, people in been undiscovered, you know, people in places and in positions that they should places and in positions that they should places and in positions that they should not be in and they could thrive in this not be in and they could thrive in this not be in and they could thrive in this position and this is actually what their position and this is actually what their position and this is actually what their calling and their gift setting is. And calling and their gift setting is. And calling and their gift setting is. And this is what this is what this is what we discovered about them because we we discovered about them because we we discovered about them because we spent time with them. And spent time with them. And spent time with them. And you know, that to us was a very you know, that to us was a very you know, that to us was a very beautiful beautiful beautiful journey with the staff and as our staff journey with the staff and as our staff journey with the staff and as our staff got healthy, so did our church. And you got healthy, so did our church. And you got healthy, so did our church. And you know, that know, that know, that >> Healthy at the top, healthy throughout. >> Healthy at the top, healthy throughout. >> Healthy at the top, healthy throughout. I'm telling you. And so, 1000% and and that's that's what we are 1000% and and that's that's what we are seeing. You know, we we are seeing, you seeing. You know, we we are seeing, you seeing. You know, we we are seeing, you know, them able to love and steward know, them able to love and steward know, them able to love and steward people well because they have been loved people well because they have been loved people well because they have been loved and stewarded well. And it's a very and stewarded well. And it's a very and stewarded well. And it's a very beautiful beautiful season beautiful beautiful season beautiful beautiful season ministry and leadership that we're in ministry and leadership that we're in ministry and leadership that we're in right now.

right now. right now. At the height of the conflict, which At the height of the conflict, which At the height of the conflict, which everybody in leadership would hope would everybody in leadership would hope would everybody in leadership would hope would be one day, but it sounded like it went be one day, but it sounded like it went be one day, but it sounded like it went on for about a year, maybe longer, maybe on for about a year, maybe longer, maybe on for about a year, maybe longer, maybe a bit shorter, but it was not a bit shorter, but it was not a bit shorter, but it was not >> still going on right now. Okay. Absolutely. Still still Okay. Absolutely. Still still still going on. Lingering. Uh, you know, still going on. Lingering. Uh, you know, still going on. Lingering. Uh, you know, we we've been very blessed that every we we've been very blessed that every we we've been very blessed that every defamation lawsuit has been thrown out defamation lawsuit has been thrown out defamation lawsuit has been thrown out of court and you know, it's been one of of court and you know, it's been one of of court and you know, it's been one of those things that has been heartbreaking those things that has been heartbreaking those things that has been heartbreaking that we have to navigate, heartbreaking that we have to navigate, heartbreaking that we have to navigate, heartbreaking that that that it has happened to it has happened to it has happened to our community, but at the same time, our community, but at the same time, our community, but at the same time, you know, we will do you know, we will do you know, we will do our part as shepherds to make sure that our part as shepherds to make sure that our part as shepherds to make sure that the bride of Christ is stewarded well. the bride of Christ is stewarded well. the bride of Christ is stewarded well. And so, Yeah, we we're still navigating And so, Yeah, we we're still navigating And so, Yeah, we we're still navigating it, it, it, but we're we're coming out of it with but we're we're coming out of it with but we're we're coming out of it with with victory in Jesus' name. with victory in Jesus' name. with victory in Jesus' name. On your bad days, cuz we all have bad On your bad days, cuz we all have bad On your bad days, cuz we all have bad days, what goes on inside you and how do days, what goes on inside you and how do days, what goes on inside you and how do you pull yourself back from the edge?

you pull yourself back from the edge? you pull yourself back from the edge? It's been a long time since I've been It's been a long time since I've been It's been a long time since I've been angry and Really? I can't I can't allow angry and Really? I can't I can't allow angry and Really? I can't I can't allow myself to go back to that place. Moments myself to go back to that place. Moments myself to go back to that place. Moments of frustration for sure. But on those of frustration for sure. But on those of frustration for sure. But on those frustrating days, what I have to do, I frustrating days, what I have to do, I frustrating days, what I have to do, I have to spend time in worship, I have to have to spend time in worship, I have to have to spend time in worship, I have to spend time in the word. And then, quite spend time in the word. And then, quite spend time in the word. And then, quite frankly, I just need to spend time with frankly, I just need to spend time with frankly, I just need to spend time with my wife and my son. You know, they are my wife and my son. You know, they are my wife and my son. You know, they are reminders to me reminders to me reminders to me that life is far greater that life is far greater that life is far greater than these difficulties and these than these difficulties and these than these difficulties and these moments of pain and these moments of moments of pain and these moments of moments of pain and these moments of frustration. And I am constantly frustration. And I am constantly frustration. And I am constantly reminded that they are my first reminded that they are my first reminded that they are my first ministry. And so, the church is not my ministry. And so, the church is not my ministry. And so, the church is not my first ministry, they are my first first ministry, they are my first first ministry, they are my first ministry. And as long as I keep my hands ministry. And as long as I keep my hands ministry. And as long as I keep my hands clean, my heart pure, clean, my heart pure, clean, my heart pure, my spirit refreshed through the word of my spirit refreshed through the word of my spirit refreshed through the word of God, my soul revived through spending God, my soul revived through spending God, my soul revived through spending time with them, then that frustration is time with them, then that frustration is time with them, then that frustration is short-lived for me and it helps to short-lived for me and it helps to short-lived for me and it helps to refocus me and it helps to keep me refocus me and it helps to keep me refocus me and it helps to keep me grounded in the purpose and the plan of grounded in the purpose and the plan of grounded in the purpose and the plan of God. God. God. What does that kind of controversy and What does that kind of controversy and What does that kind of controversy and division and opposition division and opposition division and opposition do to a congregation?

do to a congregation? do to a congregation? What have you seen happen to the body of What have you seen happen to the body of What have you seen happen to the body of Christ? Yeah, and I want to be very Christ? Yeah, and I want to be very Christ? Yeah, and I want to be very careful not to generalize it, but I know careful not to generalize it, but I know careful not to generalize it, but I know for us specifically, for us specifically, for us specifically, it broke a lot of people and it hurt a it broke a lot of people and it hurt a it broke a lot of people and it hurt a lot of people, a lot of people. lot of people, a lot of people. lot of people, a lot of people. >> you see mom and dad fighting, right? >> you see mom and dad fighting, right? >> you see mom and dad fighting, right? Absolutely. Or the parents and the kids Absolutely. Or the parents and the kids Absolutely. Or the parents and the kids fighting. Yeah, and so it it it hurt a fighting. Yeah, and so it it it hurt a fighting. Yeah, and so it it it hurt a lot of people in our context. lot of people in our context. lot of people in our context. Um, Um, Um, and a lot of people left. A lot of and a lot of people left. A lot of and a lot of people left. A lot of people were leaving before we came as people were leaving before we came as people were leaving before we came as well from a number of different well from a number of different well from a number of different decisions that were made that were decisions that were made that were decisions that were made that were hurtful. hurtful. hurtful. And you know, and so when we got there, And you know, and so when we got there, And you know, and so when we got there, the church was already hemorrhaging. And the church was already hemorrhaging. And the church was already hemorrhaging. And so, we found ourselves kind of being so, we found ourselves kind of being so, we found ourselves kind of being like captains on a ship that had like captains on a ship that had like captains on a ship that had multiple holes in it. We're just kind of multiple holes in it. We're just kind of multiple holes in it. We're just kind of trying to patch this up and and hold trying to patch this up and and hold trying to patch this up and and hold this this leak. this this leak. this this leak. You know, so we we were You know, so we we were You know, so we we were pretty stretched out pretty early on, pretty stretched out pretty early on, pretty stretched out pretty early on, but we just had a resolve given to us by but we just had a resolve given to us by but we just had a resolve given to us by God that he was going to do God that he was going to do God that he was going to do the things that we could not. And we've the things that we could not. And we've the things that we could not. And we've just seen and I know I keep kind of just seen and I know I keep kind of just seen and I know I keep kind of going back to this, but we've just seen going back to this, but we've just seen going back to this, but we've just seen the faithfulness and the faithfulness and the faithfulness and the goodness of God in this regard with the goodness of God in this regard with the goodness of God in this regard with his bride. And one of the greatest his bride. And one of the greatest his bride. And one of the greatest things that we learned pretty early on things that we learned pretty early on things that we learned pretty early on in this conflict and in seasons of pain in this conflict and in seasons of pain in this conflict and in seasons of pain is that the church that we steward is is that the church that we steward is is that the church that we steward is not ours, it is God's and he will do not ours, it is God's and he will do not ours, it is God's and he will do what he does with his bride. And our job

what he does with his bride. And our job what he does with his bride. And our job is not to carry the weight of that. Our is not to carry the weight of that. Our is not to carry the weight of that. Our job is to distribute the weight back to job is to distribute the weight back to job is to distribute the weight back to him. him. him. And he told me something that changed my And he told me something that changed my And he told me something that changed my life. It changed the way that I lead. life. It changed the way that I lead. life. It changed the way that I lead. And it was a statement And it was a statement And it was a statement that said, you can either cast your that said, you can either cast your that said, you can either cast your cares or you can carry them, but you cares or you can carry them, but you cares or you can carry them, but you cannot do both. And so every time I feel cannot do both. And so every time I feel cannot do both. And so every time I feel a care, I try to cast it. And I carry a care, I try to cast it. And I carry a care, I try to cast it. And I carry it. And it's a friendly reminder to me it. And it's a friendly reminder to me it. And it's a friendly reminder to me that I am not God, he is. And he will that I am not God, he is. And he will that I am not God, he is. And he will work through everything that needs to be work through everything that needs to be work through everything that needs to be worked through. And all I have to do is worked through. And all I have to do is worked through. And all I have to do is be obedient. And I'll see him and his be obedient. And I'll see him and his be obedient. And I'll see him and his hand at work in and through my life. hand at work in and through my life. hand at work in and through my life. Cast or carry, that'll preach. Wow. Cast or carry, that'll preach. Wow. Cast or carry, that'll preach. Wow. Um Um Um Do you question your calling? Do you question your calling? Do you question your calling? Never. Never. Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> No, you don't. Never. Why not? >> No, you don't. Never. Why not? >> No, you don't. Never. Why not? Because I know what he told me. Because I know what he told me. Because I know what he told me. I know I know where he called us. But I know I know where he called us. But I know I know where he called us. But you didn't have this picture in your you didn't have this picture in your you didn't have this picture in your head when you answered the call. Yeah, head when you answered the call. Yeah, head when you answered the call. Yeah, and no, but that's what gave us the and no, but that's what gave us the and no, but that's what gave us the resolve to stay. resolve to stay. resolve to stay. Yeah. So even though I could not see, I Yeah. So even though I could not see, I Yeah. So even though I could not see, I know what he said. And what he said led know what he said. And what he said led know what he said. And what he said led me through what I could not see.

me through what I could not see. me through what I could not see. And so, you know, even now I don't know And so, you know, even now I don't know And so, you know, even now I don't know how how how um um um you know, this will you know, this will you know, this will uh or or when will it end, but I do know uh or or when will it end, but I do know uh or or when will it end, but I do know that he is going to work it out. And for that he is going to work it out. And for that he is going to work it out. And for us to stay the course and for us to us to stay the course and for us to us to stay the course and for us to continue to be faithful and diligent um continue to be faithful and diligent um continue to be faithful and diligent um in what we are doing and what we're in what we are doing and what we're in what we are doing and what we're stewarding because he gave us a word stewarding because he gave us a word stewarding because he gave us a word that um we have to carry out. And so that um we have to carry out. And so that um we have to carry out. And so um when we get a resolve like that in a um when we get a resolve like that in a um when we get a resolve like that in a word from God, regardless of what's word from God, regardless of what's word from God, regardless of what's happening around us, I just know what happening around us, I just know what happening around us, I just know what he's spoken to us and in us. he's spoken to us and in us. he's spoken to us and in us. And that's something that I cannot And that's something that I cannot And that's something that I cannot shake. So no, never question once. shake. So no, never question once. shake. So no, never question once. Tim, I talked to a lot of leaders who Tim, I talked to a lot of leaders who Tim, I talked to a lot of leaders who are in your position and circumstances are in your position and circumstances are in your position and circumstances and facts and stories and facts and stories and facts and stories are different, but basically they end up are different, but basically they end up are different, but basically they end up taking over from a long time taking over from a long time taking over from a long time person person person uh pastor. And they end up with a mop uh pastor. And they end up with a mop uh pastor. And they end up with a mop and a bucket. Yeah. You know, and a bucket. Yeah. You know, and a bucket. Yeah. You know, uh the ship was sinking already a little uh the ship was sinking already a little uh the ship was sinking already a little bit. Things aren't exactly The financial bit. Things aren't exactly The financial bit. Things aren't exactly The financial disclosure wasn't accurate. Attendance disclosure wasn't accurate. Attendance disclosure wasn't accurate. Attendance numbers were exaggerated. They're there numbers were exaggerated. They're there numbers were exaggerated. They're there now. They're young.

now. They're young. now. They're young. And they're trying to rebuild momentum And they're trying to rebuild momentum And they're trying to rebuild momentum and trying to find a mission. What and trying to find a mission. What and trying to find a mission. What advice do you have for them? How do you advice do you have for them? How do you advice do you have for them? How do you rebuild momentum in a situation like rebuild momentum in a situation like rebuild momentum in a situation like that? I would say slowly is the fastest that? I would say slowly is the fastest that? I would say slowly is the fastest way to get to where you think God is way to get to where you think God is way to get to where you think God is calling you to go. calling you to go. calling you to go. And And And um you know, we didn't rush to make any um you know, we didn't rush to make any um you know, we didn't rush to make any changes. We still haven't rushed to make changes. We still haven't rushed to make changes. We still haven't rushed to make any changes. We've been very slow. any changes. We've been very slow. any changes. We've been very slow. And something I think that we don't hear And something I think that we don't hear And something I think that we don't hear enough of in leadership is the word God enough of in leadership is the word God enough of in leadership is the word God speed. speed. speed. And a lot of times we hear good And a lot of times we hear good And a lot of times we hear good practices. We hear great systems, great practices. We hear great systems, great practices. We hear great systems, great uh you know, operational ideas, but uh you know, operational ideas, but uh you know, operational ideas, but any of those things that are implemented any of those things that are implemented any of those things that are implemented outside of God's timing still won't work outside of God's timing still won't work outside of God's timing still won't work the way he intends for them to work. And the way he intends for them to work. And the way he intends for them to work. And so I think there's something so I think there's something so I think there's something supernatural about God's speed, moving supernatural about God's speed, moving supernatural about God's speed, moving at the speed of God through obedience. at the speed of God through obedience. at the speed of God through obedience. Even if it means that you are moving at Even if it means that you are moving at Even if it means that you are moving at the pace of a snail. You're moving super the pace of a snail. You're moving super the pace of a snail. You're moving super slow. You're moving slow. You're moving slow. You're moving at a speed that's uncomfortably slow.

at a speed that's uncomfortably slow. at a speed that's uncomfortably slow. I think that when we do that in I think that when we do that in I think that when we do that in obedience, we see God do something that obedience, we see God do something that obedience, we see God do something that only he can take the credit for. only he can take the credit for. only he can take the credit for. And that is the case with our church. When you look at all the people who are When you look at all the people who are showing up, Mhm. what are they telling showing up, Mhm. what are they telling showing up, Mhm. what are they telling you? Like this is the church that's been you? Like this is the church that's been you? Like this is the church that's been in the news now for years. in the news now for years. in the news now for years. >> Yeah. And and when you're in the >> Yeah. And and when you're in the >> Yeah. And and when you're in the headlines, it's never positive. headlines, it's never positive. headlines, it's never positive. >> Yeah. You know, you might get that one >> Yeah. You know, you might get that one >> Yeah. You know, you might get that one press release that gets published on press release that gets published on press release that gets published on page 97 of something. It's like church page 97 of something. It's like church page 97 of something. It's like church is growing at a location, right? is growing at a location, right? is growing at a location, right? Otherwise, if you're on the front page, Otherwise, if you're on the front page, Otherwise, if you're on the front page, if you're headline dude, it's not good if you're headline dude, it's not good if you're headline dude, it's not good news. news. news. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> So you've got all this bad news and you >> So you've got all this bad news and you >> So you've got all this bad news and you got lots and lots of people coming to got lots and lots of people coming to got lots and lots of people coming to Christ. What are they telling you? Christ. What are they telling you? Christ. What are they telling you? A number of different things, but one of A number of different things, but one of A number of different things, but one of the the common things that we get is the the common things that we get is the the common things that we get is when people walk through when people walk through when people walk through um one of our locations, they they say um one of our locations, they they say um one of our locations, they they say they feel loved and they feel valued. they feel loved and they feel valued. they feel loved and they feel valued. And so And so And so a leadership principle that I learned a leadership principle that I learned a leadership principle that I learned from my parents uh very early on is the from my parents uh very early on is the from my parents uh very early on is the word may bring people, but it's the love word may bring people, but it's the love word may bring people, but it's the love that keeps people.

that keeps people. that keeps people. And so as long as we can continue to And so as long as we can continue to And so as long as we can continue to model the love of Jesus Christ and model the love of Jesus Christ and model the love of Jesus Christ and really meet, engage, and steward people really meet, engage, and steward people really meet, engage, and steward people where they are and lead them to be more where they are and lead them to be more where they are and lead them to be more in tune and deeper in love with Jesus in tune and deeper in love with Jesus in tune and deeper in love with Jesus Christ, I think that's the Christ, I think that's the Christ, I think that's the transformative uh secret sauce that we transformative uh secret sauce that we transformative uh secret sauce that we have an opportunity uh to see God do have an opportunity uh to see God do have an opportunity uh to see God do miracles through. And so it's not you miracles through. And so it's not you miracles through. And so it's not you know, the worship. It's It's not even my know, the worship. It's It's not even my know, the worship. It's It's not even my preaching or teaching. It is the love preaching or teaching. It is the love preaching or teaching. It is the love that people feel. that people feel. that people feel. Um and so I I think for our leaders that Um and so I I think for our leaders that Um and so I I think for our leaders that are listening, are listening, are listening, uh if you want to grow a healthy church, uh if you want to grow a healthy church, uh if you want to grow a healthy church, then love people into health. Tim, this has been uh so helpful. And I Tim, this has been uh so helpful. And I just want to thank you for your just want to thank you for your just want to thank you for your transparency in the midst of all of it. transparency in the midst of all of it. transparency in the midst of all of it. It went in a lot of It went in a lot of It went in a lot of surprising places. What is one question surprising places. What is one question surprising places. What is one question uh you wish somebody would ask you that uh you wish somebody would ask you that uh you wish somebody would ask you that nobody ever asks you? nobody ever asks you? nobody ever asks you? That's a great question, Carey.

That's a great question, Carey. That's a great question, Carey. Uh I think one question Uh I think one question Uh I think one question that I wish someone would have asked me that I wish someone would have asked me that I wish someone would have asked me that no one that no one that no one uh has or typically doesn't ask uh has or typically doesn't ask uh has or typically doesn't ask um um um is why do I lead the way that I lead? is why do I lead the way that I lead? is why do I lead the way that I lead? Well, let's go there. Why do you lead Well, let's go there. Why do you lead Well, let's go there. Why do you lead the way that you lead? the way that you lead? the way that you lead? Uh I lead the way that I lead because I Uh I lead the way that I lead because I Uh I lead the way that I lead because I want to lead people want to lead people want to lead people I was not led. Uh and the reason I say that um Uh and the reason I say that um is because I never experienced is because I never experienced is because I never experienced the the the pastoring of my parents. They were pastoring of my parents. They were pastoring of my parents. They were great, great, great pastors. But they great, great, great pastors. But they great, great, great pastors. But they were my parents. And so they led us from were my parents. And so they led us from were my parents. And so they led us from mom and dad. They led us from that mom and dad. They led us from that mom and dad. They led us from that posture. And they were far greater posture. And they were far greater posture. And they were far greater parents than they were pastors in my parents than they were pastors in my parents than they were pastors in my humble opinion. humble opinion. humble opinion. Uh and then after my dad died Uh and then after my dad died Uh and then after my dad died I really didn't have that pastor.

I really didn't have that pastor. I really didn't have that pastor. Well, why do you say that they were Well, why do you say that they were Well, why do you say that they were better parents than pastors? What What's better parents than pastors? What What's better parents than pastors? What What's behind that? They prioritized us over behind that? They prioritized us over behind that? They prioritized us over church. They prioritized themselves, church. They prioritized themselves, church. They prioritized themselves, their relationship with each other their relationship with each other their relationship with each other over people. Uh I never had to compete over people. Uh I never had to compete over people. Uh I never had to compete uh with members of our church, me or my uh with members of our church, me or my uh with members of our church, me or my siblings, because I just we knew within siblings, because I just we knew within siblings, because I just we knew within our heart of hearts that we were our our heart of hearts that we were our our heart of hearts that we were our parents' priority. And we got an parents' priority. And we got an parents' priority. And we got an opportunity uh to go on a journey with opportunity uh to go on a journey with opportunity uh to go on a journey with them as they pastored the church and as them as they pastored the church and as them as they pastored the church and as they stewarded people. It was never they stewarded people. It was never they stewarded people. It was never uh we're going to pastor the church and uh we're going to pastor the church and uh we're going to pastor the church and we're going to parent you. It was just we're going to parent you. It was just we're going to parent you. It was just us. And we were on the journey with us. And we were on the journey with us. And we were on the journey with them. And so they were greater parents them. And so they were greater parents them. And so they were greater parents than they were pastors. And they were than they were pastors. And they were than they were pastors. And they were phenomenal pastors. Uh to give you kind phenomenal pastors. Uh to give you kind phenomenal pastors. Uh to give you kind of of of uh a bird's-eye view into uh a bird's-eye view into uh a bird's-eye view into uh both of my my parents, I never saw my uh both of my my parents, I never saw my uh both of my my parents, I never saw my father raise his voice. I never saw him father raise his voice. I never saw him father raise his voice. I never saw him do anything outside of steward his life do anything outside of steward his life do anything outside of steward his life from the utmost integrity and character.

from the utmost integrity and character. from the utmost integrity and character. Uh my mom was tough as nails, Uh my mom was tough as nails, Uh my mom was tough as nails, uh resilient. Uh first African-American uh resilient. Uh first African-American uh resilient. Uh first African-American female to be on global television female to be on global television female to be on global television uh teaching and proclaiming the gospel uh teaching and proclaiming the gospel uh teaching and proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. But they were even of Jesus Christ. But they were even of Jesus Christ. But they were even greater parents. Let me just phenomenal. greater parents. Let me just phenomenal. greater parents. Let me just phenomenal. Just phenomenal parents. That's so Just phenomenal parents. That's so Just phenomenal parents. That's so beautiful to hear cuz usually you hear beautiful to hear cuz usually you hear beautiful to hear cuz usually you hear the opposite. Great pastors, the opposite. Great pastors, the opposite. Great pastors, not so great at home. And and so they not so great at home. And and so they not so great at home. And and so they they set the bar pretty high, you know, they set the bar pretty high, you know, they set the bar pretty high, you know, for for us. And um after for for us. And um after for for us. And um after you know, my dad transitioned, I just you know, my dad transitioned, I just you know, my dad transitioned, I just didn't have that male didn't have that male didn't have that male figure in my life that was a pastor and figure in my life that was a pastor and figure in my life that was a pastor and could pastor me. You know, my could pastor me. You know, my could pastor me. You know, my grandfather, grandfather, grandfather, he was more like a father figure to me. he was more like a father figure to me. he was more like a father figure to me. Um but not my pastor. And so it wasn't Um but not my pastor. And so it wasn't Um but not my pastor. And so it wasn't until some years later that I met my until some years later that I met my until some years later that I met my pastor and the person that I talked to pastor and the person that I talked to pastor and the person that I talked to almost on a daily basis um almost on a daily basis um almost on a daily basis um that does an incredible job of that does an incredible job of that does an incredible job of uh both fathering me spiritually and uh both fathering me spiritually and uh both fathering me spiritually and he's like a father to me physically. Um he's like a father to me physically. Um he's like a father to me physically. Um and so, you know, for me I wish someone and so, you know, for me I wish someone and so, you know, for me I wish someone would have asked that question, would have asked that question, would have asked that question, uh why do you lead the way that you uh why do you lead the way that you uh why do you lead the way that you lead? And it's because lead? And it's because lead? And it's because >> there was a large gap in between um >> there was a large gap in between um >> there was a large gap in between um in between my dad dying and when I met in between my dad dying and when I met in between my dad dying and when I met my pastor my pastor my pastor that I just felt so alone and felt that I just felt so alone and felt that I just felt so alone and felt uh like I had to discover and figure uh like I had to discover and figure uh like I had to discover and figure things out kind of on my own from that things out kind of on my own from that things out kind of on my own from that male's perspective.

male's perspective. male's perspective. And so And so you lead differently how And so And so you lead differently how And so And so you lead differently how because of that gap and because of that because of that gap and because of that because of that gap and because of that experience? experience? experience? >> Yeah, very hands-on. Um >> Yeah, very hands-on. Um >> Yeah, very hands-on. Um very very very um shepherd-like. So very close to the um shepherd-like. So very close to the um shepherd-like. So very close to the sheep. sheep. sheep. Um and you know, one of our prayers for Um and you know, one of our prayers for Um and you know, one of our prayers for our church as it is growing our church as it is growing our church as it is growing um is that we would not just be um is that we would not just be um is that we would not just be figureheads that communicate the gospel, figureheads that communicate the gospel, figureheads that communicate the gospel, but live it out in community with the but live it out in community with the but live it out in community with the people of our church. people of our church. people of our church. Um How do you do that at scale? I mean, Um How do you do that at scale? I mean, Um How do you do that at scale? I mean, when you have 50 people, it's not that when you have 50 people, it's not that when you have 50 people, it's not that hard. Yeah. When when you got thousands, hard. Yeah. When when you got thousands, hard. Yeah. When when you got thousands, it's hard. How do you How do you do that it's hard. How do you How do you do that it's hard. How do you How do you do that at scale? at scale? at scale? Uh Uh Uh well, we well, we well, we don't isolate ourselves from them. And don't isolate ourselves from them. And don't isolate ourselves from them. And what I mean by that is So every Sunday what I mean by that is So every Sunday what I mean by that is So every Sunday after each one of our services, we're in after each one of our services, we're in after each one of our services, we're in the lobby. We're at the altar. the lobby. We're at the altar. the lobby. We're at the altar. Uh we are praying with people. We are Uh we are praying with people. We are Uh we are praying with people. We are talking to people. talking to people. talking to people. Um you know, I have given my cell phone Um you know, I have given my cell phone Um you know, I have given my cell phone number out publicly to number out publicly to number out publicly to our church, the entire congregation. If our church, the entire congregation. If our church, the entire congregation. If you got a question, text me. I'll you got a question, text me. I'll you got a question, text me. I'll respond to you. And so I'll block off respond to you. And so I'll block off respond to you. And so I'll block off time every single week to respond to as time every single week to respond to as time every single week to respond to as many text messages as possible.

many text messages as possible. many text messages as possible. Uh because I want people to know Uh because I want people to know Uh because I want people to know uh we don't just care about them coming uh we don't just care about them coming uh we don't just care about them coming to church. We want to bring the word of to church. We want to bring the word of to church. We want to bring the word of God to them. We want them to feel God to them. We want them to feel God to them. We want them to feel shepherded. We want them to know that we shepherded. We want them to know that we shepherded. We want them to know that we genuinely love them. genuinely love them. genuinely love them. Uh and and not just what they can do for Uh and and not just what they can do for Uh and and not just what they can do for the church, but this is what the church the church, but this is what the church the church, but this is what the church and Jesus can do for you. And so if and Jesus can do for you. And so if and Jesus can do for you. And so if Jesus being God in the flesh, I mean, Jesus being God in the flesh, I mean, Jesus being God in the flesh, I mean, all powerful, the most magnetic leader all powerful, the most magnetic leader all powerful, the most magnetic leader in leadership history walked with in leadership history walked with in leadership history walked with people, who am I to think that I'm above people, who am I to think that I'm above people, who am I to think that I'm above that? If he lived his life in community, that? If he lived his life in community, that? If he lived his life in community, why can't I? If he had the power to heal why can't I? If he had the power to heal why can't I? If he had the power to heal and I do not, if he had the power to and I do not, if he had the power to and I do not, if he had the power to resurrect Lazarus from the dead and I do resurrect Lazarus from the dead and I do resurrect Lazarus from the dead and I do not, if he had the power not, if he had the power not, if he had the power to open up blind eyes, open up deaf to open up blind eyes, open up deaf to open up blind eyes, open up deaf ears, and I do not, I come in his name, ears, and I do not, I come in his name, ears, and I do not, I come in his name, why can't I model my leadership after why can't I model my leadership after why can't I model my leadership after him? And you know, there may be pastors him? And you know, there may be pastors him? And you know, there may be pastors that are listening to this right now that are listening to this right now that are listening to this right now that have large churches and they're that have large churches and they're that have large churches and they're like, I I just simply can't do that. I like, I I just simply can't do that. I like, I I just simply can't do that. I would encourage those leaders to take would encourage those leaders to take would encourage those leaders to take the time to do it as often as you can.

the time to do it as often as you can. the time to do it as often as you can. And it will not just change the church, And it will not just change the church, And it will not just change the church, it will change you. It will change the it will change you. It will change the it will change you. It will change the way that you lead. It would allow you to way that you lead. It would allow you to way that you lead. It would allow you to keep your finger on the pulse of keep your finger on the pulse of keep your finger on the pulse of humanity and stay connected to the sheep humanity and stay connected to the sheep humanity and stay connected to the sheep that you are shepherding. that you are shepherding. that you are shepherding. Can you get to all of those texts when Can you get to all of those texts when Can you get to all of those texts when you block time off or what do you do you block time off or what do you do you block time off or what do you do with those you can't respond to just with those you can't respond to just with those you can't respond to just because of volume? Oh no, we get to all because of volume? Oh no, we get to all because of volume? Oh no, we get to all of them. Yeah. of them. Yeah. of them. Yeah. >> You get to all of them? Okay. Every >> You get to all of them? Okay. Every >> You get to all of them? Okay. Every every single last one of them, and we every single last one of them, and we every single last one of them, and we often times are the last people in our often times are the last people in our often times are the last people in our church because we want to spend time church because we want to spend time church because we want to spend time praying for and walking with people. You praying for and walking with people. You praying for and walking with people. You know, one of the things that I think we know, one of the things that I think we know, one of the things that I think we fail to realize, fail to realize, fail to realize, you know, the messages are are great. you know, the messages are are great. you know, the messages are are great. They're the word of God. They're the word of God. They're the word of God. But walking it out is even better. And But walking it out is even better. And But walking it out is even better. And so people will will remember so people will will remember so people will will remember us praying with them in the lobby far us praying with them in the lobby far us praying with them in the lobby far more than they'll remember my last point more than they'll remember my last point more than they'll remember my last point that I made. And and last in this that I made. And and last in this that I made. And and last in this message. True. And so that that to me is message. True. And so that that to me is message. True. And so that that to me is the greatest application. the greatest application. the greatest application. >> and Bob Goff, you've got a real narrow >> and Bob Goff, you've got a real narrow >> and Bob Goff, you've got a real narrow category of people who give out their category of people who give out their category of people who give out their phone numbers phone numbers phone numbers to lots and lots of people. He's one of to lots and lots of people. He's one of to lots and lots of people. He's one of the people that I got that idea from. I the people that I got that idea from. I the people that I got that idea from. I was like, man, how does Bob respond to was like, man, how does Bob respond to was like, man, how does Bob respond to all these people? He puts it in the back all these people? He puts it in the back all these people? He puts it in the back of every single one of his books, and of every single one of his books, and of every single one of his books, and he's sold millions of he's sold millions of he's sold millions of >> a couple of books, yeah.

>> a couple of books, yeah. >> a couple of books, yeah. >> So if he can do it, so can I. >> So if he can do it, so can I. >> So if he can do it, so can I. Damn, that's amazing, man. Damn, that's amazing, man. Damn, that's amazing, man. You got a new book. It's called The You got a new book. It's called The You got a new book. It's called The Bumpy Road to Better. It's if you Bumpy Road to Better. It's if you Bumpy Road to Better. It's if you enjoyed this interview, leaders, you're enjoyed this interview, leaders, you're enjoyed this interview, leaders, you're going to enjoy the book. Uh some of what going to enjoy the book. Uh some of what going to enjoy the book. Uh some of what we talked about is in there. A lot we we talked about is in there. A lot we we talked about is in there. A lot we didn't touch on is in there, and it's a didn't touch on is in there, and it's a didn't touch on is in there, and it's a very honest, you know, I appreciate your very honest, you know, I appreciate your very honest, you know, I appreciate your transparency so much, and transparency so much, and transparency so much, and Tim, I'm really delighted to have this Tim, I'm really delighted to have this Tim, I'm really delighted to have this conversation. Book's available conversation. Book's available conversation. Book's available everywhere, right? everywhere, right? everywhere, right? Everywhere. Yeah, everywhere books are Everywhere. Yeah, everywhere books are Everywhere. Yeah, everywhere books are sold. sold. sold. >> if if people want to connect with you, >> if if people want to connect with you, >> if if people want to connect with you, where where can they find you on the where where can they find you on the where where can they find you on the internet? internet? internet? TimTimberlake.tv, TimTimberlake.tv, TimTimberlake.tv, and you'll see my number at the top, and and you'll see my number at the top, and and you'll see my number at the top, and you need anything, text me. you need anything, text me. you need anything, text me. That's amazing. That's amazing, Tim. That's amazing. That's amazing, Tim. That's amazing. That's amazing, Tim. All right, man. Well, listen, thank you All right, man. Well, listen, thank you All right, man. Well, listen, thank you so so much. I appreciate you. so so much. I appreciate you. so so much. I appreciate you. Thank you, Carey. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Carey. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Carey. It's been a pleasure. Look forward to doing this again. Yeah, Look forward to doing this again. Yeah, Look forward to doing this again. Yeah, me too. Me too.