How to Lead Through Broken Trust

But it's the only twice I've ever gone But it's the only twice I've ever gone where people weren't where people weren't where people weren't excited that you were there, excited that you were there, excited that you were there, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> you know, initially. >> you know, initially. >> you know, initially. And it wasn't it it wasn't about me. It And it wasn't it it wasn't about me. It And it wasn't it it wasn't about me. It was just they were so broken and so was just they were so broken and so was just they were so broken and so mistrusting of leadership. mistrusting of leadership. mistrusting of leadership. Um a guy a guy who'd been on staff over Um a guy a guy who'd been on staff over Um a guy a guy who'd been on staff over 40 years 40 years 40 years uh probably in the first 6 months I was uh probably in the first 6 months I was uh probably in the first 6 months I was there sat with him just to get to know there sat with him just to get to know there sat with him just to get to know him. him. him. And he said, "Tim, I I you just need to And he said, "Tim, I I you just need to And he said, "Tim, I I you just need to know I don't trust you." know I don't trust you." know I don't trust you." And I don't think I'll ever trust any And I don't think I'll ever trust any And I don't think I'll ever trust any leader again. Welcome to the Carey leader again. Welcome to the Carey leader again. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Today we Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Today we Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Today we talk about the hardest assignment in talk about the hardest assignment in talk about the hardest assignment in ministry. Well, I would agree this one's ministry. Well, I would agree this one's ministry. Well, I would agree this one's right up there. Tim Stevens, former right up there. Tim Stevens, former right up there. Tim Stevens, former executive pastor at Willow Creek, talks executive pastor at Willow Creek, talks executive pastor at Willow Creek, talks about his time at Willow Creek and about his time at Willow Creek and about his time at Willow Creek and turning around a church that was sinking turning around a church that was sinking turning around a church that was sinking fast. Talk about a tough assignment. fast. Talk about a tough assignment. fast. Talk about a tough assignment. Plus we talk about firing well, Plus we talk about firing well, Plus we talk about firing well, something so many leaders struggle with, something so many leaders struggle with, something so many leaders struggle with, and finding momentum it can be so and finding momentum it can be so and finding momentum it can be so fragile, right? Wherever you're fragile, right? Wherever you're fragile, right? Wherever you're watching, be sure to follow, subscribe, watching, be sure to follow, subscribe, watching, be sure to follow, subscribe, and leave a comment to join [music] the and leave a comment to join [music] the and leave a comment to join [music] the conversation. And now a word from conversation. And now a word from conversation. And now a word from today's partners and then we'll dive today's partners and then we'll dive today's partners and then we'll dive right into my conversation with Tim right into my conversation with Tim right into my conversation with Tim Stevens. Today's episode is brought to Stevens. Today's episode is brought to Stevens. Today's episode is brought to you by my book Didn't See It Coming. So, you by my book Didn't See It Coming. So, you by my book Didn't See It Coming. So, as you'll hear in this episode, one of as you'll hear in this episode, one of as you'll hear in this episode, one of the most critical and often hardest the most critical and often hardest the most critical and often hardest leadership lessons is to believe the leadership lessons is to believe the leadership lessons is to believe the best about everything and everybody. But best about everything and everybody. But best about everything and everybody. But if you've been betrayed, if you're if you've been betrayed, if you're if you've been betrayed, if you're exhausted, or maybe the grind of exhausted, or maybe the grind of exhausted, or maybe the grind of ministry has made it easy for cynicism ministry has made it easy for cynicism ministry has made it easy for cynicism to take root in your heart, guess what?

to take root in your heart, guess what? to take root in your heart, guess what? I'd love to help you. So, I write about I'd love to help you. So, I write about I'd love to help you. So, I write about this phenomena in my best-selling book this phenomena in my best-selling book this phenomena in my best-selling book Didn't See It Coming. It's all about how Didn't See It Coming. It's all about how Didn't See It Coming. It's all about how leaders can recognize the subtle leaders can recognize the subtle leaders can recognize the subtle challenges like cynicism and challenges like cynicism and challenges like cynicism and disconnection that sneak up on us and disconnection that sneak up on us and disconnection that sneak up on us and take us out if we're not careful. I'm take us out if we're not careful. I'm take us out if we're not careful. I'm convinced this takes out more leaders convinced this takes out more leaders convinced this takes out more leaders than moral failure. So, in this than moral failure. So, in this than moral failure. So, in this conversation you heard Tim talk about conversation you heard Tim talk about conversation you heard Tim talk about what he's struggling with and if it what he's struggling with and if it what he's struggling with and if it resonates with you, Didn't See It Coming resonates with you, Didn't See It Coming resonates with you, Didn't See It Coming I think can give you a roadmap to lead I think can give you a roadmap to lead I think can give you a roadmap to lead with hope, clarity, and resilience even with hope, clarity, and resilience even with hope, clarity, and resilience even in the toughest season. You can get your in the toughest season. You can get your in the toughest season. You can get your copy of Didn't See It Coming wherever copy of Didn't See It Coming wherever copy of Didn't See It Coming wherever books are sold and there is a link to books are sold and there is a link to books are sold and there is a link to buy it on Amazon in the description of buy it on Amazon in the description of buy it on Amazon in the description of this episode. So, don't let what you this episode. So, don't let what you this episode. So, don't let what you didn't see coming take you out. Pick up didn't see coming take you out. Pick up didn't see coming take you out. Pick up the book today and discover what tens of the book today and discover what tens of the book today and discover what tens of thousands of leaders have discovered thousands of leaders have discovered thousands of leaders have discovered about the seven challenges that no about the seven challenges that no about the seven challenges that no leader expects but everyone experiences. leader expects but everyone experiences. leader expects but everyone experiences. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. One Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. One Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. One thing you've heard me say a lot of times thing you've heard me say a lot of times thing you've heard me say a lot of times is time off won't heal you if the is time off won't heal you if the is time off won't heal you if the problem is how you spend your time on.

problem is how you spend your time on. problem is how you spend your time on. Well, for so many pastors our best hours Well, for so many pastors our best hours Well, for so many pastors our best hours get swallowed up by systems that don't get swallowed up by systems that don't get swallowed up by systems that don't work, right? Scattered tools, work, right? Scattered tools, work, right? Scattered tools, disconnected processes, disconnected processes, disconnected processes, constant admin. These hours are the very constant admin. These hours are the very constant admin. These hours are the very ones you could be spending on things ones you could be spending on things ones you could be spending on things that matter most. For example, investing that matter most. For example, investing that matter most. For example, investing in people, shaping vision, or leading in people, shaping vision, or leading in people, shaping vision, or leading your church toward its mission. That's your church toward its mission. That's your church toward its mission. That's why I want you to see what 55,000 why I want you to see what 55,000 why I want you to see what 55,000 churches nationwide are using, Amplify churches nationwide are using, Amplify churches nationwide are using, Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully connected church management platform connected church management platform connected church management platform that brings your people, communication, that brings your people, communication, that brings your people, communication, events, and scheduling all into one events, and scheduling all into one events, and scheduling all into one place. When your systems work, your time place. When your systems work, your time place. When your systems work, your time on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit ministrybrands.com/amplify ministrybrands.com/amplify ministrybrands.com/amplify to learn more. Tim, 40 years of to learn more. Tim, 40 years of to learn more. Tim, 40 years of ministry. Congratulations. ministry. Congratulations. ministry. Congratulations. Thank you. I just mean that. Thank you. I just mean that. Thank you. I just mean that. >> con- congratulations, condolences? Like >> con- congratulations, condolences? Like >> con- congratulations, condolences? Like what is it? what is it? what is it? >> Condolences, maybe. Condolences? Okay. >> Condolences, maybe. Condolences? Okay. >> Condolences, maybe. Condolences? Okay. Okay. We'll go with that. Okay. We'll go with that. Okay. We'll go with that. You've had some some lightning rod You've had some some lightning rod You've had some some lightning rod positions. But what I'd love to start positions. But what I'd love to start positions. But what I'd love to start with is with is with is what has changed the most in the four what has changed the most in the four what has changed the most in the four decades of ministry? It's funny, you decades of ministry? It's funny, you decades of ministry? It's funny, you know, when you're our vintage you have know, when you're our vintage you have know, when you're our vintage you have memories from the '80s, which is crazy.

memories from the '80s, which is crazy. memories from the '80s, which is crazy. I have memories from the '70s, but I was I have memories from the '70s, but I was I have memories from the '70s, but I was a kid then. a kid then. a kid then. But, you know, you were like an adult in But, you know, you were like an adult in But, you know, you were like an adult in in the '80s and what's changed the most in the '80s and what's changed the most in the '80s and what's changed the most in these four decades? in these four decades? in these four decades? I was thinking like and I do I do I was thinking like and I do I do I was thinking like and I do I do remember church ministry in the '70s cuz remember church ministry in the '70s cuz remember church ministry in the '70s cuz I was a junior high and high school I was a junior high and high school I was a junior high and high school student student student um in ministry. And at the time and it um in ministry. And at the time and it um in ministry. And at the time and it could have just been my tribe, could have just been my tribe, could have just been my tribe, like it was bus ministry. Like that was like it was bus ministry. Like that was like it was bus ministry. Like that was >> the growing edge. And I find it's cool. >> the growing edge. And I find it's cool. >> the growing edge. And I find it's cool. Yeah. And it's like you're buying fleets Yeah. And it's like you're buying fleets Yeah. And it's like you're buying fleets of buses. of buses. of buses. >> That kind of thing, yellow school bus. >> That kind of thing, yellow school bus. >> That kind of thing, yellow school bus. Yep. Yep. >> [snorts] >> And we would send these buses and and >> And we would send these buses and and >> And we would send these buses and and for a season I had um I was a bus for a season I had um I was a bus for a season I had um I was a bus captain and we would uh visit all of our captain and we would uh visit all of our captain and we would uh visit all of our kids on Saturday and then we would send kids on Saturday and then we would send kids on Saturday and then we would send buses into the inner city on Sunday buses into the inner city on Sunday buses into the inner city on Sunday morning, pick them up, take them to morning, pick them up, take them to morning, pick them up, take them to church, um you know, sing all the way church, um you know, sing all the way church, um you know, sing all the way there and all the rest. So, that was there and all the rest. So, that was there and all the rest. So, that was kind of like you were talking about like kind of like you were talking about like kind of like you were talking about like that was the en vogue ministry was bus that was the en vogue ministry was bus that was the en vogue ministry was bus ministry. So, you think about just the ministry. So, you think about just the ministry. So, you think about just the complexity. complexity. complexity. Yeah, that would never fly today. I Yeah, that would never fly today. I Yeah, that would never fly today. I mean, parental anxiety is at an all-time mean, parental anxiety is at an all-time mean, parental anxiety is at an all-time high. It's like some stranger coming to high. It's like some stranger coming to high. It's like some stranger coming to pick up your kid in a yellow school bus pick up your kid in a yellow school bus pick up your kid in a yellow school bus and take them to church.

and take them to church. and take them to church. That and the idea of just kind of, you That and the idea of just kind of, you That and the idea of just kind of, you know, typically the white suburban know, typically the white suburban know, typically the white suburban church going into the inner city, church going into the inner city, church going into the inner city, bringing them out to the suburbs Yes. bringing them out to the suburbs Yes. bringing them out to the suburbs Yes. >> to go to church I think is a is a thing >> to go to church I think is a is a thing >> to go to church I think is a is a thing that would be complex uh this time of that would be complex uh this time of that would be complex uh this time of you know, our season. you know, our season. you know, our season. >> Well, that's definitely a a >> Well, that's definitely a a >> Well, that's definitely a a a factor. I mean, in our small town we a factor. I mean, in our small town we a factor. I mean, in our small town we didn't really have that dynamic, but it didn't really have that dynamic, but it didn't really have that dynamic, but it was go pick up the kids whose parents was go pick up the kids whose parents was go pick up the kids whose parents won't take them to church. That was our won't take them to church. That was our won't take them to church. That was our school bus ministry. Yeah. But yeah, I school bus ministry. Yeah. But yeah, I school bus ministry. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that just what's changed, mean, that just what's changed, mean, that just what's changed, complexity, um you know, what church complexity, um you know, what church complexity, um you know, what church what growing large church doesn't have what growing large church doesn't have what growing large church doesn't have multiple locations now? That wasn't a multiple locations now? That wasn't a multiple locations now? That wasn't a thing at all. thing at all. thing at all. Online Online Online ministry, discipleship, complexities, ministry, discipleship, complexities, ministry, discipleship, complexities, you know, discip- you know, how how you know, discip- you know, how how you know, discip- you know, how how we're trying to figure out how do we we're trying to figure out how do we we're trying to figure out how do we disciple people who won't only show up disciple people who won't only show up disciple people who won't only show up for, you know, once every four, five, or for, you know, once every four, five, or for, you know, once every four, five, or six weeks six weeks six weeks and we get we're still kind of feeling and we get we're still kind of feeling and we get we're still kind of feeling responsible for or to them. responsible for or to them. responsible for or to them. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean, there wasn't even the executive mean, there wasn't even the executive mean, there wasn't even the executive pastor role per se back in the '70s or pastor role per se back in the '70s or pastor role per se back in the '70s or '80s. True or not true?

'80s. True or not true? '80s. True or not true? Yeah, I know when I first uh heard that Yeah, I know when I first uh heard that Yeah, I know when I first uh heard that term I think it was probably in '88 and term I think it was probably in '88 and term I think it was probably in '88 and it was a very large church. I was um it was a very large church. I was um it was a very large church. I was um working for the ministry and we were um working for the ministry and we were um working for the ministry and we were um doing some ministry in that church and doing some ministry in that church and doing some ministry in that church and I'm like, "Executive what? Like what is I'm like, "Executive what? Like what is I'm like, "Executive what? Like what is that?" And I actually asked the guy, that?" And I actually asked the guy, that?" And I actually asked the guy, "Could I follow you around for a couple "Could I follow you around for a couple "Could I follow you around for a couple days and just see what you do?" cuz we days and just see what you do?" cuz we days and just see what you do?" cuz we were there for a couple weeks. were there for a couple weeks. were there for a couple weeks. And it was really fascinating. That's And it was really fascinating. That's And it was really fascinating. That's when I first realized when I first realized when I first realized I think I found my calling, at least in I think I found my calling, at least in I think I found my calling, at least in that phase of life of like I can that phase of life of like I can that phase of life of like I can actually be in the ministry. actually be in the ministry. actually be in the ministry. >> point, like working for the city, or was >> point, like working for the city, or was >> point, like working for the city, or was that Tony Morgan who's working for the that Tony Morgan who's working for the that Tony Morgan who's working for the >> You're thinking of Tony, yeah. Oh, Tony >> You're thinking of Tony, yeah. Oh, Tony >> You're thinking of Tony, yeah. Oh, Tony was working for the city back then. was working for the city back then. was working for the city back then. I went into ministry I went into ministry I went into ministry about I just barely turned 18. So, um I about I just barely turned 18. So, um I about I just barely turned 18. So, um I was from the from the get-go involved in was from the from the get-go involved in was from the from the get-go involved in some type of ministry in and around the some type of ministry in and around the some type of ministry in and around the church. church. church. All right. So, pick up the story. You All right. So, pick up the story. You All right. So, pick up the story. You followed this guy around for a while and followed this guy around for a while and followed this guy around for a while and Yeah, there's just this So, I knew my my Yeah, there's just this So, I knew my my Yeah, there's just this So, I knew my my grandpa was a pastor um probably when I grandpa was a pastor um probably when I grandpa was a pastor um probably when I was 15, 16 it's like I think I'm was 15, 16 it's like I think I'm was 15, 16 it's like I think I'm supposed to be in the ministry. supposed to be in the ministry. supposed to be in the ministry. I don't know what that means. Um I don't I don't know what that means. Um I don't I don't know what that means. Um I don't I don't think I'm a good preacher. My my I don't think I'm a good preacher. My my I don't think I'm a good preacher. My my youth pastor tried to make me a youth pastor tried to make me a youth pastor tried to make me a preacher. It's like, "Ah, preacher. It's like, "Ah, preacher. It's like, "Ah, I don't think that's going to work." I I don't think that's going to work." I I don't think that's going to work." I didn't really like students even while I didn't really like students even while I didn't really like students even while I was one. So, it's like I don't think I was one. So, it's like I don't think I was one. So, it's like I don't think I want to be a youth pastor.

want to be a youth pastor. want to be a youth pastor. Uh missionaries that came to my church Uh missionaries that came to my church Uh missionaries that came to my church and had the little slide projector, uh and had the little slide projector, uh and had the little slide projector, uh that didn't seem to think thing I wanted that didn't seem to think thing I wanted that didn't seem to think thing I wanted to do. So, when I met this guy to do. So, when I met this guy to do. So, when I met this guy and found out like I already knew by and found out like I already knew by and found out like I already knew by then I had some leadership, some then I had some leadership, some then I had some leadership, some administrative, some strategic gift administrative, some strategic gift administrative, some strategic gift giftings. It's like, "That's a there's a giftings. It's like, "That's a there's a giftings. It's like, "That's a there's a place for that in the church? That's place for that in the church? That's place for that in the church? That's pretty cool." And that really kind of pretty cool." And that really kind of pretty cool." And that really kind of sparked me of like, "I think I found my sparked me of like, "I think I found my sparked me of like, "I think I found my calling." calling." calling." Yeah, and you know, it's interesting cuz Yeah, and you know, it's interesting cuz Yeah, and you know, it's interesting cuz uh you know, I had Gordon MacDonald on uh you know, I had Gordon MacDonald on uh you know, I had Gordon MacDonald on at different points on this podcast and at different points on this podcast and at different points on this podcast and he was reminding me that in the '70s he was reminding me that in the '70s he was reminding me that in the '70s having a church in America over a having a church in America over a having a church in America over a thousand people was highly unusual and thousand people was highly unusual and thousand people was highly unusual and very complicated. And in those early very complicated. And in those early very complicated. And in those early days I think I first heard about days I think I first heard about days I think I first heard about executive pastors in the '90s executive pastors in the '90s executive pastors in the '90s and it was probably at Willow Creek and it was probably at Willow Creek and it was probably at Willow Creek where you most recently served, you where you most recently served, you where you most recently served, you know, from 2020 until know, from 2020 until know, from 2020 until 2023 or whatever. 2023 or whatever. 2023 or whatever. But that was a novel role and everyone's But that was a novel role and everyone's But that was a novel role and everyone's like, "Exactly what is an executive like, "Exactly what is an executive like, "Exactly what is an executive pastor?" But it's sort of, you know, my pastor?" But it's sort of, you know, my pastor?" But it's sort of, you know, my working definition has always been like working definition has always been like working definition has always been like the COO for a complex organization. Is the COO for a complex organization. Is the COO for a complex organization. Is that basically what's your working that basically what's your working that basically what's your working definition of an executive pastor?

definition of an executive pastor? definition of an executive pastor? I I think uh so, early on it my my I I think uh so, early on it my my I I think uh so, early on it my my personal working definition was when I personal working definition was when I personal working definition was when I interviewed the very first time for an guy in the church, and he says, you guy in the church, and he says, you know, basically what do you want to do know, basically what do you want to do know, basically what do you want to do or how do you envision this uh this or how do you envision this uh this or how do you envision this uh this role? And I said, "I want to put feet to role? And I said, "I want to put feet to role? And I said, "I want to put feet to the vision. Like I want to come the vision. Like I want to come the vision. Like I want to come alongside a visionary and really put alongside a visionary and really put alongside a visionary and really put feet um to that vision, that dream that feet um to that vision, that dream that feet um to that vision, that dream that I I can totally buy into and that I can I I can totally buy into and that I can I I can totally buy into and that I can help kind of see it happen." I've gotten help kind of see it happen." I've gotten help kind of see it happen." I've gotten a little bit more refined in my a little bit more refined in my a little bit more refined in my definition. So, definition. So, definition. So, now I think of it the executive pastor's now I think of it the executive pastor's now I think of it the executive pastor's job is to align people, strategy, job is to align people, strategy, job is to align people, strategy, resources, and culture so the church's resources, and culture so the church's resources, and culture so the church's vision actually happens. vision actually happens. vision actually happens. It looks a little bit different small, It looks a little bit different small, It looks a little bit different small, medium, large churches, but I think in medium, large churches, but I think in medium, large churches, but I think in essence that's what it is. essence that's what it is. essence that's what it is. Are you familiar with uh Les McKeown's Are you familiar with uh Les McKeown's Are you familiar with uh Les McKeown's work and his visionary, operator, work and his visionary, operator, work and his visionary, operator, processor framework? A little bit or not processor framework? A little bit or not processor framework? A little bit or not so much? A little bit. so much? A little bit. so much? A little bit. Yeah, and I find I mean, tell me if I'm Yeah, and I find I mean, tell me if I'm Yeah, and I find I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but a lot of senior pastors have wrong, but a lot of senior pastors have wrong, but a lot of senior pastors have a visionary a visionary a visionary kind of bent and I realized that when we kind of bent and I realized that when we kind of bent and I realized that when we hit about 600 and I hit a ceiling hit about 600 and I hit a ceiling hit about 600 and I hit a ceiling and I realized I need an operator. Now, and I realized I need an operator. Now, and I realized I need an operator. Now, I was years away from meeting Les I was years away from meeting Les I was years away from meeting Les McKeown, he was years away from writing McKeown, he was years away from writing McKeown, he was years away from writing Predictable Success Predictable Success Predictable Success and his other books, but and his other books, but and his other books, but you know, that to me, can you talk a you know, that to me, can you talk a you know, that to me, can you talk a little bit about that because I think I little bit about that because I think I little bit about that because I think I think there are probably church leaders think there are probably church leaders think there are probably church leaders listening who are visionaries

listening who are visionaries listening who are visionaries and still don't even understand the gap and still don't even understand the gap and still don't even understand the gap or why it's not happening. or why it's not happening. or why it's not happening. Yeah, and the term the book I know Yeah, and the term the book I know Yeah, and the term the book I know better than that is called Rocket Fuel better than that is called Rocket Fuel better than that is called Rocket Fuel and the terms they use is visionary and and the terms they use is visionary and and the terms they use is visionary and integrator um is kind of unlocks the integrator um is kind of unlocks the integrator um is kind of unlocks the magic of a magic of a magic of a of an organization. And in in that of an organization. And in in that of an organization. And in in that context of the book they're talking context of the book they're talking context of the book they're talking corporate marketplace, but to me there's corporate marketplace, but to me there's corporate marketplace, but to me there's so much carryover especially so much carryover especially so much carryover especially when you've got it dialed in between when you've got it dialed in between when you've got it dialed in between what like you said, a visionary um who what like you said, a visionary um who what like you said, a visionary um who is um is um is um you know, has a dream they have they're you know, has a dream they have they're you know, has a dream they have they're coming in asking questions no one's coming in asking questions no one's coming in asking questions no one's asking they started to the planet church asking they started to the planet church asking they started to the planet church when everyone says it won't work or we when everyone says it won't work or we when everyone says it won't work or we don't need one don't need one don't need one and and then they get in and they're and and then they get in and they're and and then they get in and they're they're doing everything at that point they're doing everything at that point they're doing everything at that point and then they get into actually like and then they get into actually like and then they get into actually like building teams building systems building building teams building systems building building teams building systems building processes managing people figuring out processes managing people figuring out processes managing people figuring out how do we go through the hiring process how do we go through the hiring process how do we go through the hiring process what if we have to listen to like and it what if we have to listen to like and it what if we have to listen to like and it just wears them out and just wears them out and just wears them out and um um um and sometimes most of the time they and sometimes most of the time they and sometimes most of the time they don't make the curve I mean they they don't make the curve I mean they they don't make the curve I mean they they they survive most of them survive but they survive most of them survive but they survive most of them survive but they don't make the curve most of them they don't make the curve most of them they don't make the curve most of them aren't wired to be both if if they are aren't wired to be both if if they are aren't wired to be both if if they are if they do have a little bit of both if they do have a little bit of both if they do have a little bit of both wirings on there in them wirings on there in them wirings on there in them probably the church will stay probably the church will stay probably the church will stay small to medium-sized because they're small to medium-sized because they're small to medium-sized because they're kind of having to wear a bunch of hats kind of having to wear a bunch of hats kind of having to wear a bunch of hats and they're happy doing it and there's and they're happy doing it and there's and they're happy doing it and there's nothing wrong with that there's a ton of nothing wrong with that there's a ton of nothing wrong with that there's a ton of small churches in the country with um small churches in the country with um small churches in the country with um with uh pastors shepherds people that with uh pastors shepherds people that with uh pastors shepherds people that are having to also do the administrative are having to also do the administrative are having to also do the administrative um strategy um strategy um strategy but I I love it when I see but I I love it when I see but I I love it when I see an integrator an integrator an integrator who doesn't want the number one job they who doesn't want the number one job they who doesn't want the number one job they they're usually not wired to preach some they're usually not wired to preach some they're usually not wired to preach some of them preach but usually not uh but

of them preach but usually not uh but of them preach but usually not uh but man they are great with people they got man they are great with people they got man they are great with people they got high EQ high EQ high EQ uh they know how to spot talent they can uh they know how to spot talent they can uh they know how to spot talent they can bring great people on the team they know bring great people on the team they know bring great people on the team they know how to develop people they know how to how to develop people they know how to how to develop people they know how to set up some systems to unlock ministry set up some systems to unlock ministry set up some systems to unlock ministry so it doesn't get frustrating and that's so it doesn't get frustrating and that's so it doesn't get frustrating and that's magic when you see that happen magic when you see that happen magic when you see that happen Did you ever aspire to be a senior Did you ever aspire to be a senior Did you ever aspire to be a senior pastor? Was that ever part of your pastor? Was that ever part of your pastor? Was that ever part of your framework over the decades? framework over the decades? framework over the decades? >> Never. Never. Okay this is what a lot of >> Never. Never. Okay this is what a lot of >> Never. Never. Okay this is what a lot of leaders don't understand Tim it's like leaders don't understand Tim it's like leaders don't understand Tim it's like everybody wants this job right? I got to everybody wants this job right? I got to everybody wants this job right? I got to be careful. be careful. be careful. Can you have you ever drilled down on Can you have you ever drilled down on Can you have you ever drilled down on that? Like what is it about you and that? Like what is it about you and that? Like what is it about you and you're not alone I've met lots of you're not alone I've met lots of you're not alone I've met lots of leaders who don't want to be in that leaders who don't want to be in that leaders who don't want to be in that number one chair what is it about your number one chair what is it about your number one chair what is it about your heart your vision your calling your heart your vision your calling your heart your vision your calling your satisfaction satisfaction satisfaction that means yeah I didn't ever want to be that means yeah I didn't ever want to be that means yeah I didn't ever want to be a lead pastor. a lead pastor. a lead pastor. Great question I've never been in the Great question I've never been in the Great question I've never been in the number one chair till 2 years ago when I number one chair till 2 years ago when I number one chair till 2 years ago when I launched out doing leading smart launched out doing leading smart launched out doing leading smart full-time so it's always been it's full-time so it's always been it's full-time so it's always been it's always been a second chair. Which is always been a second chair. Which is always been a second chair. Which is your thing right? It's been your hobby your thing right? It's been your hobby your thing right? It's been your hobby for 20 years 30 years? I for 20 years 30 years? I for 20 years 30 years? I absolutely yeah um it was kind of a you absolutely yeah um it was kind of a you absolutely yeah um it was kind of a you know side thing for a long time that we know side thing for a long time that we know side thing for a long time that we just scaled up 2 years ago but I've just scaled up 2 years ago but I've just scaled up 2 years ago but I've always felt up till that point called to always felt up till that point called to always felt up till that point called to the second chair I love like like I said the second chair I love like like I said the second chair I love like like I said earlier put feet to the vision I love to earlier put feet to the vision I love to earlier put feet to the vision I love to come alongside come alongside come alongside um um um a visionary leader that just um I a visionary leader that just um I a visionary leader that just um I remember when I first went to Granger remember when I first went to Granger remember when I first went to Granger and um and um and um the church was 250 people Mark Batterson the church was 250 people Mark Batterson the church was 250 people Mark Batterson was the senior pastor you know one of was the senior pastor you know one of was the senior pastor you know one of the greatest visionaries and the greatest visionaries and the greatest visionaries and communicators that I I'd ever known and

communicators that I I'd ever known and communicators that I I'd ever known and he's he's passed away but I just he's he's passed away but I just he's he's passed away but I just remember coming alongside and like the remember coming alongside and like the remember coming alongside and like the church was stuck church was stuck church was stuck and like I couldn't do anything he could and like I couldn't do anything he could and like I couldn't do anything he could do do do but he needed some stuff I could do um but he needed some stuff I could do um but he needed some stuff I could do um in order to like free that church up for in order to like free that church up for in order to like free that church up for growth and man we got to go for a ride growth and man we got to go for a ride growth and man we got to go for a ride for for for 20 years because he didn't want to do 20 years because he didn't want to do 20 years because he didn't want to do what I was doing and I didn't want to do what I was doing and I didn't want to do what I was doing and I didn't want to do what he was doing and together we could what he was doing and together we could what he was doing and together we could make it work and we we had total trust make it work and we we had total trust make it work and we we had total trust in each other we had each other's backs in each other we had each other's backs in each other we had each other's backs and and and um um um and and it just was magic and and it just was magic and and it just was magic Huh. Huh. Huh. Yeah I think for a lot of senior pastors Yeah I think for a lot of senior pastors Yeah I think for a lot of senior pastors it's hard to believe that someone would it's hard to believe that someone would it's hard to believe that someone would be content be content be content in that role over the long term right? in that role over the long term right? in that role over the long term right? Because if you look at the profile of a Because if you look at the profile of a Because if you look at the profile of a lot of senior pastors was student pastor lot of senior pastors was student pastor lot of senior pastors was student pastor and then maybe they're an exact position and then maybe they're an exact position and then maybe they're an exact position but they're always hoping to get that but they're always hoping to get that but they're always hoping to get that that lead seat anything else about that lead seat anything else about that lead seat anything else about contentment in that role that either contentment in that role that either contentment in that role that either people who are in the second chair people who are in the second chair people who are in the second chair should realize no it's actually cool should realize no it's actually cool should realize no it's actually cool that I want to sit here that I want to sit here that I want to sit here or that senior pastors need to or that senior pastors need to or that senior pastors need to understand about that particular understand about that particular understand about that particular profiling gifting that might not be profiling gifting that might not be profiling gifting that might not be native to the way we operate.

I think I talked to a lot of of um men I think I talked to a lot of of um men and women who are in that second chair and women who are in that second chair and women who are in that second chair role and I I try to drill down because role and I I try to drill down because role and I I try to drill down because it like if ultimately they want the to it like if ultimately they want the to it like if ultimately they want the to be in the first chair be in the first chair be in the first chair um that can become unknowingly um it it um that can become unknowingly um it it um that can become unknowingly um it it can become toxic it can become a barrier can become toxic it can become a barrier can become toxic it can become a barrier between them and their relationship between them and their relationship between them and their relationship because because because it's there they they may may be it's there they they may may be it's there they they may may be subconscious or just want they want to subconscious or just want they want to subconscious or just want they want to preach a little bit more they get a preach a little bit more they get a preach a little bit more they get a little bit frustrated because you know little bit frustrated because you know little bit frustrated because you know the person in the number one chair isn't the person in the number one chair isn't the person in the number one chair isn't making decisions like they would make making decisions like they would make making decisions like they would make them them them and they're starting to dream more and and they're starting to dream more and and they're starting to dream more and more and more about being in that role more and more about being in that role more and more about being in that role and can be they can become subversive so and can be they can become subversive so and can be they can become subversive so I encourage them I encourage them I encourage them before it does become subversive or before it does become subversive or before it does become subversive or become a problem for that church um become a problem for that church um become a problem for that church um go do it go do it go do it don't do it within 30 miles of here but don't do it within 30 miles of here but don't do it within 30 miles of here but go do it somewhere go do it somewhere go do it somewhere um and um and um and um you know if that's a if that's truly um you know if that's a if that's truly um you know if that's a if that's truly a calling and you've discerned it and a calling and you've discerned it and a calling and you've discerned it and people around you that know and love you people around you that know and love you people around you that know and love you well discerned it with you then just go well discerned it with you then just go well discerned it with you then just go do that do that do that and I'll say for for lead pastors um and I'll say for for lead pastors um and I'll say for for lead pastors um it's we always kind of project like we it's we always kind of project like we it's we always kind of project like we think well no one would want to do that think well no one would want to do that think well no one would want to do that because we don't want to do that because we don't want to do that because we don't want to do that um and so we all kind of project you um and so we all kind of project you um and so we all kind of project you know kind of say no for people because know kind of say no for people because know kind of say no for people because it's like who would want that job but it's like who would want that job but it's like who would want that job but there are there are there are wired you know people out there that are wired you know people out there that are wired you know people out there that are wired with that gift and I bet I bet wired with that gift and I bet I bet wired with that gift and I bet I bet over half of the executive pastors I over half of the executive pastors I over half of the executive pastors I work with work with work with um went into that role from the um went into that role from the um went into that role from the marketplace marketplace marketplace they're in their church and they just they're in their church and they just they're in their church and they just feel a call to ministry and they're feel a call to ministry and they're feel a call to ministry and they're running a business or they're exact an running a business or they're exact an running a business or they're exact an executive at AT&T or somewhere executive at AT&T or somewhere executive at AT&T or somewhere and they have a real sense that um and they have a real sense that um and they have a real sense that um they're supposed to come alongside their they're supposed to come alongside their they're supposed to come alongside their pastor initially um to do that role and

pastor initially um to do that role and pastor initially um to do that role and that's pretty cool when that happens that's pretty cool when that happens that's pretty cool when that happens What's another when you've when you've What's another when you've when you've What's another when you've when you've either in your own experience as XP or either in your own experience as XP or either in your own experience as XP or in the work that you've done with other in the work that you've done with other in the work that you've done with other XPs XPs XPs um um um I think one of the things I've struggled I think one of the things I've struggled I think one of the things I've struggled with is oh you mean the stuff I really with is oh you mean the stuff I really with is oh you mean the stuff I really don't like I'm really not energized by don't like I'm really not energized by don't like I'm really not energized by and I really don't want to do is and I really don't want to do is and I really don't want to do is actually what other people wake up actually what other people wake up actually what other people wake up excited to do every morning and so excited to do every morning and so excited to do every morning and so sometimes we can feel guilty about sometimes we can feel guilty about sometimes we can feel guilty about offloading things or we can just assume offloading things or we can just assume offloading things or we can just assume that that that nobody wants to do this number one have nobody wants to do this number one have nobody wants to do this number one have you seen that dynamic and number two if you seen that dynamic and number two if you seen that dynamic and number two if you have can you explain a little bit you have can you explain a little bit you have can you explain a little bit more so that people on both sides of the more so that people on both sides of the more so that people on both sides of the equation understand what's at stake? Yeah I definitely see that um Yeah I definitely see that um and you know I'll just say again like I and you know I'll just say again like I and you know I'll just say again like I think people there are there are men and think people there are there are men and think people there are there are men and women that are absolutely women that are absolutely women that are absolutely called to that called to that called to that and it's not an easier job it's just a and it's not an easier job it's just a and it's not an easier job it's just a different job um different job um different job um there's there's a way that I highly there's there's a way that I highly there's there's a way that I highly respect for senior pastors and lead respect for senior pastors and lead respect for senior pastors and lead pastors and most of my work right now is pastors and most of my work right now is pastors and most of my work right now is more with senior and lead pastors than more with senior and lead pastors than more with senior and lead pastors than it is with executive pastors and just so it is with executive pastors and just so it is with executive pastors and just so I'm getting a you know a sense of like I'm getting a you know a sense of like I'm getting a you know a sense of like the weight that they carry the weight that they carry the weight that they carry and what they and what they and what they uh what keeps them up at night what uh what keeps them up at night what uh what keeps them up at night what wakes them up in the morning is wakes them up in the morning is wakes them up in the morning is different than the executive pastor I different than the executive pastor I different than the executive pastor I think for the executive pastor think for the executive pastor think for the executive pastor there's a lot of there's there's a there's a lot of there's there's a there's a lot of there's there's a little bit of a squeeze where they're little bit of a squeeze where they're little bit of a squeeze where they're kind of a buffer kind of a buffer kind of a buffer from the energy that the senior lead from the energy that the senior lead from the energy that the senior lead pastor may walk into in any given day pastor may walk into in any given day pastor may walk into in any given day and um

and um and um you know frustrated about this or that you know frustrated about this or that you know frustrated about this or that or this isn't happening fast enough or or this isn't happening fast enough or or this isn't happening fast enough or whatever so the executive pastor is whatever so the executive pastor is whatever so the executive pastor is absorbing this absorbing this absorbing this and then um trying to absorb you know and then um trying to absorb you know and then um trying to absorb you know the ex the action or activity without the ex the action or activity without the ex the action or activity without absorbing the energy and then um passing absorbing the energy and then um passing absorbing the energy and then um passing that on to and trying to lead a healthy that on to and trying to lead a healthy that on to and trying to lead a healthy staff below their level and there's a staff below their level and there's a staff below their level and there's a pressure and a weight to that too and pressure and a weight to that too and pressure and a weight to that too and especially especially especially um um um I've seen it like almost be I've seen it like almost be I've seen it like almost be soul-crushing for soul-crushing for soul-crushing for for leaders in that position uh because for leaders in that position uh because for leaders in that position uh because they're they're trying to absorb it they're they're trying to absorb it they're they're trying to absorb it without having like any kind of an without having like any kind of an without having like any kind of an outlet to outlet to outlet to um you know they're not seeing a um you know they're not seeing a um you know they're not seeing a therapist they don't have any good therapist they don't have any good therapist they don't have any good pastor friends that they're talking to pastor friends that they're talking to pastor friends that they're talking to that are somewhere else that they can that are somewhere else that they can that are somewhere else that they can kind of vent to and get perspective from kind of vent to and get perspective from kind of vent to and get perspective from and so I'll just soldier on and not and so I'll just soldier on and not and so I'll just soldier on and not delegate this delegate this delegate this when when you think about your different when when you think about your different when when you think about your different roles over the years what were some of roles over the years what were some of roles over the years what were some of the things that you would wake up in the the things that you would wake up in the the things that you would wake up in the morning as an XP and say oh I can't wait morning as an XP and say oh I can't wait morning as an XP and say oh I can't wait to do this? Like just give us a a list to do this? Like just give us a a list to do this? Like just give us a a list of some of your favorite things because of some of your favorite things because of some of your favorite things because I think when you see the content of that I think when you see the content of that I think when you see the content of that list you know it reminds people who sat list you know it reminds people who sat list you know it reminds people who sat in my seat no people really love this in my seat no people really love this in my seat no people really love this Yeah I think early on Yeah I think early on Yeah I think early on uh it was uh it was uh it was building a buying land property building a buying land property building a buying land property development building development in our development building development in our development building development in our first church we were meeting in the first church we were meeting in the first church we were meeting in the movie theater um movie theater um movie theater um we didn't have land and have building we didn't have land and have building we didn't have land and have building like if we're going to grow we need that like if we're going to grow we need that like if we're going to grow we need that um and like there's nothing within me um and like there's nothing within me um and like there's nothing within me right now that wants to be involved in a right now that wants to be involved in a right now that wants to be involved in a building project but but then those building project but but then those building project but but then those first 10 years and I loved it and I first 10 years and I loved it and I first 10 years and I loved it and I really really really at the time prided myself on bringing at the time prided myself on bringing at the time prided myself on bringing projects in projects in projects in um

um um under budget not always on time but under budget not always on time but under budget not always on time but under budget we did six projects and under budget we did six projects and under budget we did six projects and they were under budget they were under budget they were under budget um and so like managing that stewardship um and so like managing that stewardship um and so like managing that stewardship for the church has brought me great for the church has brought me great for the church has brought me great great pride and joy cuz um it's like man great pride and joy cuz um it's like man great pride and joy cuz um it's like man these are tithes and offerings from these are tithes and offerings from these are tithes and offerings from people that don't have a lot so let's people that don't have a lot so let's people that don't have a lot so let's let's handle it really well let's handle it really well let's handle it really well I think as time went on it became I think as time went on it became I think as time went on it became developing people developing people developing people spotting talent and then developing spotting talent and then developing spotting talent and then developing people so people so people so we you know lead teams we spend so much we you know lead teams we spend so much we you know lead teams we spend so much sideways energy dealing with someone we sideways energy dealing with someone we sideways energy dealing with someone we shouldn't have hired or that we should shouldn't have hired or that we should shouldn't have hired or that we should have dealt with a long time ago and it have dealt with a long time ago and it have dealt with a long time ago and it just sucks our time our energy our just sucks our time our energy our just sucks our time our energy our emotional you know it's emotionally emotional you know it's emotionally emotional you know it's emotionally weighing on us because we know the weighing on us because we know the weighing on us because we know the family we know the kids and we know the family we know the kids and we know the family we know the kids and we know the people in their small group and we don't people in their small group and we don't people in their small group and we don't want to be hurt um want to be hurt um want to be hurt um >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> but so so man if you spend more time and >> but so so man if you spend more time and >> but so so man if you spend more time and get some gifted people on the front end get some gifted people on the front end get some gifted people on the front end um vetting who you're bringing on the um vetting who you're bringing on the um vetting who you're bringing on the team developing those people especially team developing those people especially team developing those people especially when you're hiring from within you're when you're hiring from within you're when you're hiring from within you're developing them for a long time before developing them for a long time before developing them for a long time before they're ever on your team and then they're ever on your team and then they're ever on your team and then you're bringing them on and continuing you're bringing them on and continuing you're bringing them on and continuing to develop and to build a to develop and to build a to develop and to build a uh healthy culture so that they can uh healthy culture so that they can uh healthy culture so that they can thrive that's thrive that's thrive that's man I could do that every day all day man I could do that every day all day man I could do that every day all day You probably had your share of tough You probably had your share of tough You probably had your share of tough assignments in your time in leadership assignments in your time in leadership assignments in your time in leadership if you could take us on a case study if you could take us on a case study if you could take us on a case study basis through your toughest assignment basis through your toughest assignment basis through your toughest assignment what would you say your toughest what would you say your toughest what would you say your toughest assignment was assignment was assignment was and what were the elements that you had and what were the elements that you had and what were the elements that you had to contend with as you tried to deal to contend with as you tried to deal to contend with as you tried to deal with it?

Easy answer the toughest assignment was Easy answer the toughest assignment was um um um was jumping into Willow in 2020 was jumping into Willow in 2020 was jumping into Willow in 2020 as we talked before about this it's the as we talked before about this it's the as we talked before about this it's the only only only uh I've only had four job changes in my uh I've only had four job changes in my uh I've only had four job changes in my life, uh, so to speak. So, it was the life, uh, so to speak. So, it was the life, uh, so to speak. So, it was the only one that I absolutely felt only one that I absolutely felt only one that I absolutely felt absolutely called. Like, the others were absolutely called. Like, the others were absolutely called. Like, the others were were good decisions, logical decisions, were good decisions, logical decisions, were good decisions, logical decisions, smart for my family. This one was a smart for my family. This one was a smart for my family. This one was a calling, um, because I knew what I was I calling, um, because I knew what I was I calling, um, because I knew what I was I was walking into. was walking into. was walking into. And, um, And, um, And, um, hardest thing I've ever done It's the hardest thing I've ever done It's the hardest thing I've ever done It's the only church I've ever gone where people only church I've ever gone where people only church I've ever gone where people weren't weren't weren't excited that you were there, excited that you were there, excited that you were there, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> you know, initially. >> you know, initially. >> you know, initially. And it wasn't It wasn't about me. It was And it wasn't It wasn't about me. It was And it wasn't It wasn't about me. It was just they were so broken and so just they were so broken and so just they were so broken and so mistrusting of leadership. Um, mistrusting of leadership. Um, mistrusting of leadership. Um, a guy The guy who'd been on staff over a guy The guy who'd been on staff over a guy The guy who'd been on staff over 40 years, 40 years, 40 years, uh, probably in the first 6 months I was uh, probably in the first 6 months I was uh, probably in the first 6 months I was there, met with him just to get to know there, met with him just to get to know there, met with him just to get to know him. him. him. And he said, "Tim, I I You just need to And he said, "Tim, I I You just need to And he said, "Tim, I I You just need to know I don't trust you." know I don't trust you." know I don't trust you." And I don't think I'll ever trust any And I don't think I'll ever trust any And I don't think I'll ever trust any leader again. He was just so devastated, leader again. He was just so devastated, leader again. He was just so devastated, you know? So, people carrying that you know? So, people carrying that you know? So, people carrying that brokenness just There's a lot of brokenness just There's a lot of brokenness just There's a lot of just difficult times. So, that was a just difficult times. So, that was a just difficult times. So, that was a really hard really hard really hard to go into a place that was in a nose to go into a place that was in a nose to go into a place that was in a nose dive as far as momentum going dive as far as momentum going dive as far as momentum going momentum happening was shut down because momentum happening was shut down because momentum happening was shut down because of COVID. Was, um, of COVID. Was, um, of COVID. Was, um, thinking, you know, financially, sinking thinking, you know, financially, sinking thinking, you know, financially, sinking very quickly. Um, and way, way, way very quickly. Um, and way, way, way very quickly. Um, and way, way, way overstaffed. So, we had to make some overstaffed. So, we had to make some overstaffed. So, we had to make some really hard decisions initially really hard decisions initially really hard decisions initially just to get the staff, just to get the staff, just to get the staff, um, right-sized, the budget right-sized um, right-sized, the budget right-sized um, right-sized, the budget right-sized so that then we could build from there, so that then we could build from there, so that then we could build from there, um, towards being a thriving, healthy um, towards being a thriving, healthy um, towards being a thriving, healthy church again.

church again. church again. And we we talked about that in an entire And we we talked about that in an entire And we we talked about that in an entire episode. We'll link to it in the show episode. We'll link to it in the show episode. We'll link to it in the show notes, but notes, but notes, but um, um, um, you know, looking back on it now with you know, looking back on it now with you know, looking back on it now with even a little more perspective, you felt even a little more perspective, you felt even a little more perspective, you felt an absolute call to go there. You were an absolute call to go there. You were an absolute call to go there. You were actually, for the backstory, you were actually, for the backstory, you were actually, for the backstory, you were charged, you were a fan of Willow at the charged, you were a fan of Willow at the charged, you were a fan of Willow at the time, of finding the new lead pastor and time, of finding the new lead pastor and time, of finding the new lead pastor and then ended up saying, "Yeah, and I'm then ended up saying, "Yeah, and I'm then ended up saying, "Yeah, and I'm called to go there as [laughter] well." called to go there as [laughter] well." called to go there as [laughter] well." Which is insane. But, um, Which is insane. But, um, Which is insane. But, um, I mean, most leaders, first of all, I mean, most leaders, first of all, I mean, most leaders, first of all, wouldn't want that assignment wouldn't want that assignment wouldn't want that assignment if they could possibly avoid it. if they could possibly avoid it. if they could possibly avoid it. Secondly, most of us would have no idea Secondly, most of us would have no idea Secondly, most of us would have no idea to approach it. And I would say, to approach it. And I would say, to approach it. And I would say, you know, probably wasn't an unqualified you know, probably wasn't an unqualified you know, probably wasn't an unqualified success, but Willow was a thriving success, but Willow was a thriving success, but Willow was a thriving congregation that has a new chapter and congregation that has a new chapter and congregation that has a new chapter and a new era a new era a new era because of the 5 years of transition because of the 5 years of transition because of the 5 years of transition that you and Dave Dummitt and the senior that you and Dave Dummitt and the senior that you and Dave Dummitt and the senior leadership team did, and Shawn Williams, leadership team did, and Shawn Williams, leadership team did, and Shawn Williams, who's now there as the the senior who's now there as the the senior who's now there as the the senior pastor, you know, Willow has a future, pastor, you know, Willow has a future, pastor, you know, Willow has a future, and that was not clear in 2020. So, how and that was not clear in 2020. So, how and that was not clear in 2020. So, how did you, did you, did you, you know, how do you go about figuring you know, how do you go about figuring you know, how do you go about figuring out what to do, and then what did you out what to do, and then what did you out what to do, and then what did you do?

do? do? What were the broad strokes on how to What were the broad strokes on how to What were the broad strokes on how to turn that around? turn that around? turn that around? It's interesting. I, um, was reflecting It's interesting. I, um, was reflecting It's interesting. I, um, was reflecting with Dave recently. Um, with Dave recently. Um, with Dave recently. Um, he and I both started in the office the he and I both started in the office the he and I both started in the office the same day, on May 15th or 18th, can't same day, on May 15th or 18th, can't same day, on May 15th or 18th, can't remember which, um, of 2020. So, again, remember which, um, of 2020. So, again, remember which, um, of 2020. So, again, picture the world shut down. No one else picture the world shut down. No one else picture the world shut down. No one else is It's a 960,000 square foot building. is It's a 960,000 square foot building. is It's a 960,000 square foot building. No one else is there because they're all No one else is there because they're all No one else is there because they're all working from home. working from home. working from home. But, Dave and I don't have any work any But, Dave and I don't have any work any But, Dave and I don't have any work any place to work from home cuz we're just, place to work from home cuz we're just, place to work from home cuz we're just, you know, still moving our families. you know, still moving our families. you know, still moving our families. So, we're in his office, on the So, we're in his office, on the So, we're in his office, on the whiteboard, and he writes up in the whiteboard, and he writes up in the whiteboard, and he writes up in the corner, 2020, gain trust, earn trust. corner, 2020, gain trust, earn trust. corner, 2020, gain trust, earn trust. 2021, figure out a plan. 2022, 2021, figure out a plan. 2022, 2021, figure out a plan. 2022, start to implement plan. Which is the start to implement plan. Which is the start to implement plan. Which is the hardest thing to do, right? hardest thing to do, right? hardest thing to do, right? >> plan even for a year, just gain trust. >> plan even for a year, just gain trust. >> plan even for a year, just gain trust. Gain trust, which everyone tells you in Gain trust, which everyone tells you in Gain trust, which everyone tells you in change management that's what you do. change management that's what you do. change management that's what you do. Like, you don't start changing stuff. Like, you don't start changing stuff. Like, you don't start changing stuff. Well, then, like, 3 weeks later we Well, then, like, 3 weeks later we Well, then, like, 3 weeks later we realized how bad the finances are realized how bad the finances are realized how bad the finances are and how long we'll be locked down with and how long we'll be locked down with and how long we'll be locked down with COVID and thinking about we can't wait COVID and thinking about we can't wait COVID and thinking about we can't wait to We can't wait and, you know, and it to We can't wait and, you know, and it to We can't wait and, you know, and it ended up being 13 months for us to be in ended up being 13 months for us to be in ended up being 13 months for us to be in the room with people to build the trust, the room with people to build the trust, the room with people to build the trust, Yeah. to earn their trust, and then to Yeah. to earn their trust, and then to Yeah. to earn their trust, and then to be able to start making be able to start making be able to start making changes. So, we had to start right away changes. So, we had to start right away changes. So, we had to start right away without the trust having been earned, without the trust having been earned, without the trust having been earned, um, which was um, which was um, which was significantly challenging. I wouldn't significantly challenging. I wouldn't significantly challenging. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone, um, but it's it recommend it for anyone, um, but it's it recommend it for anyone, um, but it's it was a kind of have to. So, I think like was a kind of have to. So, I think like was a kind of have to. So, I think like first thing focused on, so first thing focused on, so first thing focused on, so you know, Dave Dave was the primary you know, Dave Dave was the primary you know, Dave Dave was the primary communicator. I didn't have to think communicator. I didn't have to think communicator. I didn't have to think about the weekend services. I was about the weekend services. I was about the weekend services. I was thinking about the staff.

thinking about the staff. thinking about the staff. And then we had a, um, Matt Sennett, who And then we had a, um, Matt Sennett, who And then we had a, um, Matt Sennett, who was our CFO at the time, became our was our CFO at the time, became our was our CFO at the time, became our executive pastor of operations, was executive pastor of operations, was executive pastor of operations, was focused on the money and the property. focused on the money and the property. focused on the money and the property. So, like, between the three of us So, like, between the three of us So, like, between the three of us initially, um, building out the staff, initially, um, building out the staff, initially, um, building out the staff, like, figuring out what the structure like, figuring out what the structure like, figuring out what the structure we're going to have, realizing that we we're going to have, realizing that we we're going to have, realizing that we had a, had a, had a, um, financial model as far as multi-site um, financial model as far as multi-site um, financial model as far as multi-site that did not work and would not work, that did not work and would not work, that did not work and would not work, um, and would sink us. So, having to um, and would sink us. So, having to um, and would sink us. So, having to change the model significantly, which change the model significantly, which change the model significantly, which then changes what those people signed up then changes what those people signed up then changes what those people signed up for that were on staff. They're like, I for that were on staff. They're like, I for that were on staff. They're like, I didn't sign up for that. didn't sign up for that. didn't sign up for that. So, then having to transition folks that So, then having to transition folks that So, then having to transition folks that were like, were like, were like, "Love Love what you're doing, but I'm "Love Love what you're doing, but I'm "Love Love what you're doing, but I'm not It's not me." Transitioning them not It's not me." Transitioning them not It's not me." Transitioning them out, transitioning new people in. out, transitioning new people in. out, transitioning new people in. And then once we kind of It's probably And then once we kind of It's probably And then once we kind of It's probably a year, almost a year before we felt, a year, almost a year before we felt, a year, almost a year before we felt, "Okay, we think we have the staff that's "Okay, we think we have the staff that's "Okay, we think we have the staff that's going to carry us forward. Now, let's going to carry us forward. Now, let's going to carry us forward. Now, let's work on getting healthy." And we were work on getting healthy." And we were work on getting healthy." And we were working on health in between, but that working on health in between, but that working on health in between, but that was for me, a big part of my focus was was for me, a big part of my focus was was for me, a big part of my focus was getting the right people there and I'll getting the right people there and I'll getting the right people there and I'll work on the health of the staff. Yeah, work on the health of the staff. Yeah, work on the health of the staff. Yeah, cuz the boat was sinking, right? So, if cuz the boat was sinking, right? So, if cuz the boat was sinking, right? So, if you didn't start bailing water, it was you didn't start bailing water, it was you didn't start bailing water, it was over. over. over. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, that's what I hear you saying. So, that's what I hear you saying. So, that's what I hear you saying. That's absolutely true. I mean, and it That's absolutely true. I mean, and it That's absolutely true. I mean, and it was I remember, uh, when we first got was I remember, uh, when we first got was I remember, uh, when we first got there, I think there was a lot of wise there, I think there was a lot of wise there, I think there was a lot of wise stewardship before we got there. So, stewardship before we got there. So, stewardship before we got there. So, there was a fair bit of money in the there was a fair bit of money in the there was a fair bit of money in the bank, but we were bleeding so fast bank, but we were bleeding so fast bank, but we were bleeding so fast that there was a sense and I think that there was a sense and I think that there was a sense and I think initially it's like, okay, you have 3 to initially it's like, okay, you have 3 to initially it's like, okay, you have 3 to 5 years of kind of burn rate. 5 years of kind of burn rate. 5 years of kind of burn rate. And then, you know, we weren't there And then, you know, we weren't there And then, you know, we weren't there very long, and it's like, you might have very long, and it's like, you might have very long, and it's like, you might have 5 to 12 months of burn rate. It's like, 5 to 12 months of burn rate. It's like, 5 to 12 months of burn rate. It's like, oh, wow. oh, wow. oh, wow. That's completely different. That's completely different. That's completely different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did you process that level of How did you process that level of How did you process that level of stress? I mean, you've got a couple stress? I mean, you've got a couple stress? I mean, you've got a couple years removed from it now. You left in years removed from it now. You left in years removed from it now. You left in '23, right? '23, right? '23, right? Yeah, uh, mid '23. Yeah, uh, mid '23. Yeah, uh, mid '23. >> And we're recording this in '25. So, you >> And we're recording this in '25. So, you >> And we're recording this in '25. So, you had, you know, 24 months of distance had, you know, 24 months of distance had, you know, 24 months of distance now. now. now. When you look back at yourself, When you look back at yourself, When you look back at yourself, what did you do well to process that what did you do well to process that what did you do well to process that level of stress, change, pressure, level of stress, change, pressure, level of stress, change, pressure, and what would you do differently? I think what gave me an advantage coming I think what gave me an advantage coming in was, in was, in was, um, um, um, I knew I was on temporary assignment.

I knew I was on temporary assignment. I knew I was on temporary assignment. Meaning, I knew I wasn't going to retire Meaning, I knew I wasn't going to retire Meaning, I knew I wasn't going to retire from Willow. Yeah. This wasn't a 20-year from Willow. Yeah. This wasn't a 20-year from Willow. Yeah. This wasn't a 20-year thing. No. It really And I And we talked thing. No. It really And I And we talked thing. No. It really And I And we talked about that openly up front. It's just a about that openly up front. It's just a about that openly up front. It's just a sense of like, I know for sure I'm sense of like, I know for sure I'm sense of like, I know for sure I'm supposed to be be here and come in to supposed to be be here and come in to supposed to be be here and come in to help for X number of years, a short help for X number of years, a short help for X number of years, a short time, to help, you know, get this thing time, to help, you know, get this thing time, to help, you know, get this thing back on to be a part of getting this back on to be a part of getting this back on to be a part of getting this thing back into a healthy place, into a thing back into a healthy place, into a thing back into a healthy place, into a thriving church. thriving church. thriving church. Um, so, what that does is it gives you a Um, so, what that does is it gives you a Um, so, what that does is it gives you a um, it keeps my identity separate from um, it keeps my identity separate from um, it keeps my identity separate from the church, which I think is healthy. the church, which I think is healthy. the church, which I think is healthy. Whereas, back at Granger, my identity Whereas, back at Granger, my identity Whereas, back at Granger, my identity was one in the same with the church. I'd was one in the same with the church. I'd was one in the same with the church. I'd kind of grown up with it, been there. kind of grown up with it, been there. kind of grown up with it, been there. That was a really hard disconnect, you That was a really hard disconnect, you That was a really hard disconnect, you know, later on when it was time to know, later on when it was time to know, later on when it was time to leave. But, at Willow, it was a sense of leave. But, at Willow, it was a sense of leave. But, at Willow, it was a sense of like, like, like, uh, you know, I wasn't I wasn't uh, you know, I wasn't I wasn't uh, you know, I wasn't I wasn't emotionally detached, but I was able to emotionally detached, but I was able to emotionally detached, but I was able to my my identity was detached from it. my my identity was detached from it. my my identity was detached from it. It's like, I want to work. It's like, I want to work. It's like, I want to work. I knew it was a sprint. I knew it was a sprint. I knew it was a sprint. And so, I think that helped. I think I And so, I think that helped. I think I And so, I think that helped. I think I had a lot of, um, had a lot of, um, had a lot of, um, I went to therapy, was helpful. I had I went to therapy, was helpful. I had I went to therapy, was helpful. I had friends, pastors from other places that friends, pastors from other places that friends, pastors from other places that were were were from all over the world, really, that from all over the world, really, that from all over the world, really, that were cheering us on and that could be an were cheering us on and that could be an were cheering us on and that could be an outlet for me, um, at times.

outlet for me, um, at times. outlet for me, um, at times. Um, I think things, you know, you ask Um, I think things, you know, you ask Um, I think things, you know, you ask what's the things I got wrong, you know, what's the things I got wrong, you know, what's the things I got wrong, you know, what when got squeezed. what when got squeezed. what when got squeezed. Um, we had a couple times when, like, we Um, we had a couple times when, like, we Um, we had a couple times when, like, we were just taking, it, um, were just taking, it, um, were just taking, it, um, from congregants that were just mad, from congregants that were just mad, from congregants that were just mad, upset, emotional, yelling, screaming, upset, emotional, yelling, screaming, upset, emotional, yelling, screaming, open microphone kind of stuff, cussing. open microphone kind of stuff, cussing. open microphone kind of stuff, cussing. Um, and I think I walked in the moment I Um, and I think I walked in the moment I Um, and I think I walked in the moment I thought, man, thought, man, thought, man, just I just need to love these people. just I just need to love these people. just I just need to love these people. And that's what we did for those two And that's what we did for those two And that's what we did for those two nights. nights. nights. But, like, 6 months later I I was still But, like, 6 months later I I was still But, like, 6 months later I I was still feeling the wounds from that and feeling the wounds from that and feeling the wounds from that and realizing, okay, like, that that stung. realizing, okay, like, that that stung. realizing, okay, like, that that stung. And I was probably too emotionally And I was probably too emotionally And I was probably too emotionally detached in that moment to feel the detached in that moment to feel the detached in that moment to feel the sting of it. But, had to, you know, work sting of it. But, had to, you know, work sting of it. But, had to, you know, work through it. And what I Even now when I through it. And what I Even now when I through it. And what I Even now when I reflect on it, it's it was a, reflect on it, it's it was a, reflect on it, it's it was a, you know, probably the hardest two you know, probably the hardest two you know, probably the hardest two nights of my life, ministry life. nights of my life, ministry life. nights of my life, ministry life. >> Because you're right, grieving your >> Because you're right, grieving your >> Because you're right, grieving your losses is so important. So, how how do losses is so important. So, how how do losses is so important. So, how how do you go about doing that? Yeah. Yeah. I think time helps. I think, um, I think time helps. I think, um, I think time helps. I think, um, what helped too, what helped too, what helped too, you know, when you're in the moment, you know, when you're in the moment, you know, when you're in the moment, when you're you're fighting the battle, when you're you're fighting the battle, when you're you're fighting the battle, and I've never never been at war, but my and I've never never been at war, but my and I've never never been at war, but my sense is like, you're in the middle of a sense is like, you're in the middle of a sense is like, you're in the middle of a war.

war. war. Um, and like, you don't even know if Um, and like, you don't even know if Um, and like, you don't even know if you're making progress. you're making progress. you're making progress. Um, you think you're doing the right Um, you think you're doing the right Um, you think you're doing the right things, but you don't know if you're things, but you don't know if you're things, but you don't know if you're making progress. I think there was a making progress. I think there was a making progress. I think there was a sense there You know, there was a sense there You know, there was a sense there You know, there was a probably 18 months there where it's probably 18 months there where it's probably 18 months there where it's like, like, like, we're doing everything we think are the we're doing everything we think are the we're doing everything we think are the right things, and we're not seeing one right things, and we're not seeing one right things, and we're not seeing one bit of progress here. bit of progress here. bit of progress here. But, what happens eventually then, and But, what happens eventually then, and But, what happens eventually then, and we did, is like, okay, we did, is like, okay, we did, is like, okay, it's starting to work in pockets. We're it's starting to work in pockets. We're it's starting to work in pockets. We're starting to see some health here. starting to see some health here. starting to see some health here. Brand new people are coming to church. Brand new people are coming to church. Brand new people are coming to church. By the By the time I left, 65% of the By the By the time I left, 65% of the By the By the time I left, 65% of the church was brand new, um, full of life, church was brand new, um, full of life, church was brand new, um, full of life, had never had the previous pastor as had never had the previous pastor as had never had the previous pastor as their pastor. their pastor. their pastor. Um, didn't have the baggage and wounds Um, didn't have the baggage and wounds Um, didn't have the baggage and wounds that that some of the long-timers had that that some of the long-timers had that that some of the long-timers had had. So, had. So, had. So, that's I mean, that's that's helpful in that's I mean, that's that's helpful in that's I mean, that's that's helpful in the healing process as well. It's like, the healing process as well. It's like, the healing process as well. It's like, man, we went through man, we went through man, we went through a difficult hour. a difficult hour. a difficult hour. >> A little bit of progress. Yeah. >> A little bit of progress. Yeah. >> A little bit of progress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hm. Hm. Hm. Anything else about that season, that Anything else about that season, that Anything else about that season, that assignment, that assignment, that assignment, that you're reflecting on now? I'm just so grateful, like, for I'm just so grateful, like, for that that that that that's in that that's in that that's in um, in my 40 years of ministry that um, in my 40 years of ministry that um, in my 40 years of ministry that that's a piece of it. I really am that's a piece of it. I really am that's a piece of it. I really am grateful. Learned so much from it. I grateful. Learned so much from it. I grateful. Learned so much from it. I would have no idea would have no idea would have no idea I would I wouldn't have much of an idea I would I wouldn't have much of an idea I would I wouldn't have much of an idea of how how the how a church turn around of how how the how a church turn around of how how the how a church turn around from a really dark season, how to from a really dark season, how to from a really dark season, how to recover recover recover from the ins- you know, the immediate from the ins- you know, the immediate from the ins- you know, the immediate loss of a pastor, loss of a pastor, loss of a pastor, um, how to help a a board that's, um, um, how to help a a board that's, um, um, how to help a a board that's, um, dysfunctional get healthy.

dysfunctional get healthy. dysfunctional get healthy. Um, a board that had to had to So, not Um, a board that had to had to So, not Um, a board that had to had to So, not dysfunctional from the stance of it They dysfunctional from the stance of it They dysfunctional from the stance of it They didn't do anything wrong. Dysfunctional didn't do anything wrong. Dysfunctional didn't do anything wrong. Dysfunctional from the stance of they had to run the from the stance of they had to run the from the stance of they had to run the church by themselves without pastors for church by themselves without pastors for church by themselves without pastors for 2 years. And not not a small church. So, 2 years. And not not a small church. So, 2 years. And not not a small church. So, helping them kind of like reframe into helping them kind of like reframe into helping them kind of like reframe into um um um getting out of the weeds and back to getting out of the weeds and back to getting out of the weeds and back to like a healthy governance um like a healthy governance um like a healthy governance um level. So, like I'm just so grateful for level. So, like I'm just so grateful for level. So, like I'm just so grateful for all those experiences. Um and it's still all those experiences. Um and it's still all those experiences. Um and it's still my home church. So, I get to sit there my home church. So, I get to sit there my home church. So, I get to sit there from week to week and I'm far enough from week to week and I'm far enough from week to week and I'm far enough removed now, 2 years removed now that I removed now, 2 years removed now that I removed now, 2 years removed now that I don't still I don't walk in and think don't still I don't walk in and think don't still I don't walk in and think about the lights or the screen or the about the lights or the screen or the about the lights or the screen or the carpet, you know, I can sit there and carpet, you know, I can sit there and carpet, you know, I can sit there and enjoy and worship. So, that's that feels enjoy and worship. So, that's that feels enjoy and worship. So, that's that feels good. good. good. It's pretty remarkable that you can It's pretty remarkable that you can It's pretty remarkable that you can still worship there. And I mean, I've still worship there. And I mean, I've still worship there. And I mean, I've had that experience at Connexus Church had that experience at Connexus Church had that experience at Connexus Church now. Now, it was a decade ago that we now. Now, it was a decade ago that we now. Now, it was a decade ago that we I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I stepped out of the lead pastor role, but what makes it possible, do you but what makes it possible, do you but what makes it possible, do you think, for think, for think, for church leaders who were former staff to church leaders who were former staff to church leaders who were former staff to be able to still worship? Because that's be able to still worship? Because that's be able to still worship? Because that's pretty rare. And and that's kind of the pretty rare. And and that's kind of the pretty rare. And and that's kind of the norm for former staff at Connexus, which norm for former staff at Connexus, which norm for former staff at Connexus, which is a tribute to our lead pastor, Jeff is a tribute to our lead pastor, Jeff is a tribute to our lead pastor, Jeff Broady, who's done a great job of that.

Broady, who's done a great job of that. Broady, who's done a great job of that. But like what what are the conditions But like what what are the conditions But like what what are the conditions that make it possible that make it possible that make it possible for because most of the time you either for because most of the time you either for because most of the time you either discover former church staff who aren't discover former church staff who aren't discover former church staff who aren't attending church or who had to go across attending church or who had to go across attending church or who had to go across town to a different church. town to a different church. town to a different church. Had to in brackets. Had to in brackets. Had to in brackets. Quotation marks. Quotation marks. Quotation marks. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I I think >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I I think >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I I think there's a posture of humility that's there's a posture of humility that's there's a posture of humility that's super important. I get to talk to a lot super important. I get to talk to a lot super important. I get to talk to a lot of of of staff transition away from a church. staff transition away from a church. staff transition away from a church. Oh, and so then I and then I get to Oh, and so then I and then I get to Oh, and so then I and then I get to practice it, right? Um to see if I practice it, right? Um to see if I practice it, right? Um to see if I actually can practice what I say. actually can practice what I say. actually can practice what I say. So, I think there's a posture of So, I think there's a posture of So, I think there's a posture of humility to say humility to say humility to say um um um there's this everyone leaves a church, there's this everyone leaves a church, there's this everyone leaves a church, leaves a leaves a place that in this leaves a leaves a place that in this leaves a leaves a place that in this case leaves a church and there's a case leaves a church and there's a case leaves a church and there's a little bit of push and there's a little little bit of push and there's a little little bit of push and there's a little bit of pull and those two numbers add up bit of pull and those two numbers add up bit of pull and those two numbers add up to 100%. So, the push could be I hate my to 100%. So, the push could be I hate my to 100%. So, the push could be I hate my elders and I'm so tired of this place elders and I'm so tired of this place elders and I'm so tired of this place and they're driving me out. So, it's an and they're driving me out. So, it's an and they're driving me out. So, it's an 80% push, you feel pushed 80% push, you feel pushed 80% push, you feel pushed uh 20% pull to what's next. Uh sometimes uh 20% pull to what's next. Uh sometimes uh 20% pull to what's next. Uh sometimes it's 100% push and you don't know what's it's 100% push and you don't know what's it's 100% push and you don't know what's next, but you just know you have to next, but you just know you have to next, but you just know you have to leave. Sometimes it's a 95% pull. My my leave. Sometimes it's a 95% pull. My my leave. Sometimes it's a 95% pull. My my pull to Willow was probably 90% pull, pull to Willow was probably 90% pull, pull to Willow was probably 90% pull, 10% push from where I was, 90% pull. It 10% push from where I was, 90% pull. It 10% push from where I was, 90% pull. It was just a vision that I mean, it was was just a vision that I mean, it was was just a vision that I mean, it was like I had to do it.

like I had to do it. like I had to do it. But I think like a sense of that, what But I think like a sense of that, what But I think like a sense of that, what whatever reason, whatever the percentage whatever reason, whatever the percentage whatever reason, whatever the percentage is, is, is, there are things that you like wish were there are things that you like wish were there are things that you like wish were different, that you would have done different, that you would have done different, that you would have done different, that you can't believe they different, that you can't believe they different, that you can't believe they haven't done yet, that, you know, haven't done yet, that, you know, haven't done yet, that, you know, counsel you gave them that they're not counsel you gave them that they're not counsel you gave them that they're not following, whatever. following, whatever. following, whatever. Um you just have to like have a posture Um you just have to like have a posture Um you just have to like have a posture of humility and realize of humility and realize of humility and realize I'm not the I'm not the I'm not the master of the universe. Like this isn't master of the universe. Like this isn't master of the universe. Like this isn't on me. I don't necessarily have the best on me. I don't necessarily have the best on me. I don't necessarily have the best idea. idea. idea. Um the spirit of God is still alive and Um the spirit of God is still alive and Um the spirit of God is still alive and at work with these leaders that I'm that at work with these leaders that I'm that at work with these leaders that I'm that I'm stepping away from. I'm stepping away from. I'm stepping away from. And if you can have that posture And if you can have that posture And if you can have that posture and and then really just keep your mouth and and then really just keep your mouth and and then really just keep your mouth shut, cuz you are going to have shut, cuz you are going to have shut, cuz you are going to have thoughts, you are going to want to say thoughts, you are going to want to say thoughts, you are going to want to say something. Your your previous leaders, something. Your your previous leaders, something. Your your previous leaders, you know, 2 months after you leave or 2 you know, 2 months after you leave or 2 you know, 2 months after you leave or 2 days after you leave, they're going to days after you leave, they're going to days after you leave, they're going to do something or say something. do something or say something. do something or say something. Your emotions are going to be high Your emotions are going to be high Your emotions are going to be high because you've been there for 2 years or because you've been there for 2 years or because you've been there for 2 years or 5 years or 15 years. Um and you just 5 years or 15 years. Um and you just 5 years or 15 years. Um and you just have to have a lot of self-discipline to have to have a lot of self-discipline to have to have a lot of self-discipline to you know, breathe some prayers you know, breathe some prayers you know, breathe some prayers internally and say, "God, help me not internally and say, "God, help me not internally and say, "God, help me not say anything in this moment." And be say anything in this moment." And be say anything in this moment." And be supportive um even when you don't feel supportive um even when you don't feel supportive um even when you don't feel like it. Um it's been great for us to like it. Um it's been great for us to like it. Um it's been great for us to like cuz I really want to be like cuz I really want to be like cuz I really want to be left there wanting to continue to left there wanting to continue to left there wanting to continue to support Dave and Shawn and the rest of support Dave and Shawn and the rest of support Dave and Shawn and the rest of the team there um because they're doing the team there um because they're doing the team there um because they're doing really good and really hard work.

really good and really hard work. really good and really hard work. And now I can help them in a different And now I can help them in a different And now I can help them in a different way. way. way. You have conversations with lead pastors You have conversations with lead pastors You have conversations with lead pastors and executive pastors across America and and executive pastors across America and and executive pastors across America and probably around the world. What is the probably around the world. What is the probably around the world. What is the secret or off-the-record conversation secret or off-the-record conversation secret or off-the-record conversation they're having that every church leader they're having that every church leader they're having that every church leader needs to hear? needs to hear? needs to hear? Yeah. No, that's a great question. Um Yeah. No, that's a great question. Um Yeah. No, that's a great question. Um And and are you asking like between And and are you asking like between And and are you asking like between senior pastors and executive pastors or senior pastors and executive pastors or senior pastors and executive pastors or just in general? just in general? just in general? >> you sit around a fire pit, you got a >> you sit around a fire pit, you got a >> you sit around a fire pit, you got a beautiful fire pit in your backyard. beautiful fire pit in your backyard. beautiful fire pit in your backyard. When you sit around a fire pit, when When you sit around a fire pit, when When you sit around a fire pit, when you're you're you're lingering over a 2-hour meal, what are lingering over a 2-hour meal, what are lingering over a 2-hour meal, what are the conversations that nobody really the conversations that nobody really the conversations that nobody really wants to have in public that keep coming wants to have in public that keep coming wants to have in public that keep coming up? up? up? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing that comes to mind is I think one thing that comes to mind is I think one thing that comes to mind is um there there's a sense when you're there there's a sense when you're leading in a church, doesn't matter if leading in a church, doesn't matter if leading in a church, doesn't matter if it's senior pastor, executive pastor, or it's senior pastor, executive pastor, or it's senior pastor, executive pastor, or any other role. any other role. any other role. There's a sense that you can't be There's a sense that you can't be There's a sense that you can't be vulnerable. vulnerable. vulnerable. Um Um Um and you wish you could. and you wish you could. and you wish you could. Like you you really you want to be, but Like you you really you want to be, but Like you you really you want to be, but you don't see how you can be because you don't see how you can be because you don't see how you can be because you try once or twice and it comes back you try once or twice and it comes back you try once or twice and it comes back to bite you. And so then you're like, to bite you. And so then you're like, to bite you. And so then you're like, "Never again."

"Never again." "Never again." And so And so And so it's either like people that are in your it's either like people that are in your it's either like people that are in your congregation that have put you on a congregation that have put you on a congregation that have put you on a pedestal and you feel like you need to pedestal and you feel like you need to pedestal and you feel like you need to stay there or they're your staff who you stay there or they're your staff who you stay there or they're your staff who you pay pay pay um who just it it just has a different um who just it it just has a different um who just it it just has a different dynamic. Um dynamic. Um dynamic. Um that you just feel like you can't that you just feel like you can't that you just feel like you can't be honest. And so be honest. And so be honest. And so what I hear like around fire pits and what I hear like around fire pits and what I hear like around fire pits and stuff with pastors is just a a bit like stuff with pastors is just a a bit like stuff with pastors is just a a bit like almost a not an excessive vulnerability, almost a not an excessive vulnerability, almost a not an excessive vulnerability, but like but like but like man, like I'm I'm so glad I can finally man, like I'm I'm so glad I can finally man, like I'm I'm so glad I can finally like like like talk real here and like I can't. talk real here and like I can't. talk real here and like I can't. There's like nowhere in life that I can There's like nowhere in life that I can There's like nowhere in life that I can It feels like it. I don't know that it's It feels like it. I don't know that it's It feels like it. I don't know that it's true. It sure feels like it though. true. It sure feels like it though. true. It sure feels like it though. They'll be like even like a lot of They'll be like even like a lot of They'll be like even like a lot of pastors don't don't, you know, they pastors don't don't, you know, they pastors don't don't, you know, they might want everyone in their church in a might want everyone in their church in a might want everyone in their church in a small group, a lot of them aren't in small group, a lot of them aren't in small group, a lot of them aren't in small groups themselves because of that, small groups themselves because of that, small groups themselves because of that, they don't feel like they can. they don't feel like they can. they don't feel like they can. Some that are um Some that are um Some that are um still just feel like everyone's looking still just feel like everyone's looking still just feel like everyone's looking up to them for the right answer at the up to them for the right answer at the up to them for the right answer at the whatever that small group topic is. whatever that small group topic is. whatever that small group topic is. Um they can't they feel like they can't Um they can't they feel like they can't Um they can't they feel like they can't say, "I'm struggling with my wife right say, "I'm struggling with my wife right say, "I'm struggling with my wife right now." or, you know, "I just yelled at my now." or, you know, "I just yelled at my now." or, you know, "I just yelled at my kid."

kid." kid." I don't know that it's true that they I don't know that it's true that they I don't know that it's true that they can't, but they sure feel that way. And can't, but they sure feel that way. And can't, but they sure feel that way. And so when they get a chance to kind of so when they get a chance to kind of so when they get a chance to kind of lower their guard a little bit and talk lower their guard a little bit and talk lower their guard a little bit and talk to some people that um are in the same to some people that um are in the same to some people that um are in the same seat same chair, seat same chair, seat same chair, you hear some of that come out. you hear some of that come out. you hear some of that come out. Without betraying confidences, what are Without betraying confidences, what are Without betraying confidences, what are like is it things are not going well at like is it things are not going well at like is it things are not going well at home even though they're going well at home even though they're going well at home even though they're going well at the church or is it personnel issues or the church or is it personnel issues or the church or is it personnel issues or is it some kind of inner struggle? Like is it some kind of inner struggle? Like is it some kind of inner struggle? Like what are the what are the what are the are there common refrains or common are there common refrains or common are there common refrains or common themes that you hear themes that you hear themes that you hear from pastors? Because, you know, I'm I'm from pastors? Because, you know, I'm I'm from pastors? Because, you know, I'm I'm guessing guessing guessing of the tens of thousands of people of the tens of thousands of people of the tens of thousands of people hearing this episode, some have that hearing this episode, some have that hearing this episode, some have that outlet, some have got a fire pit, some outlet, some have got a fire pit, some outlet, some have got a fire pit, some have got friends they can go to dinner have got friends they can go to dinner have got friends they can go to dinner with. Then out of the others are sitting with. Then out of the others are sitting with. Then out of the others are sitting there and they're like a corked there and they're like a corked there and they're like a corked um bottle, you know, when the pressure's um bottle, you know, when the pressure's um bottle, you know, when the pressure's building and they don't know when building and they don't know when building and they don't know when they're going to blow and I'm just they're going to blow and I'm just they're going to blow and I'm just wondering wondering wondering what are the frequent flyer issues that what are the frequent flyer issues that what are the frequent flyer issues that you would hear without betraying any you would hear without betraying any you would hear without betraying any confidences of specific cases?

confidences of specific cases? confidences of specific cases? Two categories come to mind. Two categories come to mind. Two categories come to mind. One would be One would be One would be um family. um family. um family. Um so, it's a struggle in marriage. Um so, it's a struggle in marriage. Um so, it's a struggle in marriage. Uh it's, you know, Uh it's, you know, Uh it's, you know, my wife told me she doesn't want to even my wife told me she doesn't want to even my wife told me she doesn't want to even want to be married to me anymore, but want to be married to me anymore, but want to be married to me anymore, but we're staying together because we kind we're staying together because we kind we're staying together because we kind of feel both feel like we have to. It's, of feel both feel like we have to. It's, of feel both feel like we have to. It's, you know, my kids struggling with their you know, my kids struggling with their you know, my kids struggling with their sexuality and I don't know what to do sexuality and I don't know what to do sexuality and I don't know what to do and I can't tell anyone about it cuz and I can't tell anyone about it cuz and I can't tell anyone about it cuz it'll reflect badly on me. it'll reflect badly on me. it'll reflect badly on me. Um it's all those kinds of things. It's Um it's all those kinds of things. It's Um it's all those kinds of things. It's my, you know, my kids having um my, you know, my kids having um my, you know, my kids having um uh an addiction, you know, I'm I'm uh an addiction, you know, I'm I'm uh an addiction, you know, I'm I'm having to do a drug test on my having to do a drug test on my having to do a drug test on my 18-year-old every 18-year-old every 18-year-old every Friday night. And it's like things like Friday night. And it's like things like Friday night. And it's like things like that. It's like I can't talk about. They that. It's like I can't talk about. They that. It's like I can't talk about. They feel like they can't talk about that feel like they can't talk about that feel like they can't talk about that stuff out loud stuff out loud stuff out loud because it reflects poorly. The other because it reflects poorly. The other because it reflects poorly. The other category would be category would be category would be um you know, just tension within running um you know, just tension within running um you know, just tension within running the church and like just being the church and like just being the church and like just being completely exhausted worn out from that, completely exhausted worn out from that, completely exhausted worn out from that, having a sense of like impostor having a sense of like impostor having a sense of like impostor syndrome, like I'm in over my head, but syndrome, like I'm in over my head, but syndrome, like I'm in over my head, but surely can't admit that. surely can't admit that. surely can't admit that. Um and I I I've got something there's Um and I I I've got something there's Um and I I I've got something there's something broken. It might be my something broken. It might be my something broken. It might be my relationship with my board.

relationship with my board. relationship with my board. Uh it might be like my staff's a mess, Uh it might be like my staff's a mess, Uh it might be like my staff's a mess, but I don't know how to fix it. It might but I don't know how to fix it. It might but I don't know how to fix it. It might be I'm being asked to too much to do too be I'm being asked to too much to do too be I'm being asked to too much to do too much outside of like my comfort zone or much outside of like my comfort zone or much outside of like my comfort zone or my skill set. my skill set. my skill set. Um but we just don't have anyone else to Um but we just don't have anyone else to Um but we just don't have anyone else to do it. Um do it. Um do it. Um there's a bit of that. there's a bit of that. there's a bit of that. You know, it's like it it's almost You know, it's like it it's almost You know, it's like it it's almost exhaustion. You hear a lot of pastors exhaustion. You hear a lot of pastors exhaustion. You hear a lot of pastors will do a sabbatical or extended study will do a sabbatical or extended study will do a sabbatical or extended study break once a year. break once a year. break once a year. They don't get a whole lot of studying They don't get a whole lot of studying They don't get a whole lot of studying done cuz they're just exhausted. And done cuz they're just exhausted. And done cuz they're just exhausted. And [laughter] they spend 3 weeks Another [laughter] they spend 3 weeks Another [laughter] they spend 3 weeks Another nap. nap. nap. >> and then detox. Right. Yeah, right. >> and then detox. Right. Yeah, right. >> and then detox. Right. Yeah, right. I appreciate that. And, you know, I I appreciate that. And, you know, I I appreciate that. And, you know, I think you've processed fairly well over think you've processed fairly well over think you've processed fairly well over your time in ministry. Who have you your time in ministry. Who have you your time in ministry. Who have you turned to? Think back a decade, 15 years turned to? Think back a decade, 15 years turned to? Think back a decade, 15 years ago, 5 years ago. ago, 5 years ago. ago, 5 years ago. How did you process that kind of stuff? I think in the good in the healthy I think in the good in the healthy seasons, which um you know, just seasons, which um you know, just seasons, which um you know, just grateful to God most of that was as far grateful to God most of that was as far grateful to God most of that was as far as like having a healthy team around me. as like having a healthy team around me. as like having a healthy team around me. Um then then you could rely on the team Um then then you could rely on the team Um then then you could rely on the team cuz like we're all in this together, cuz like we're all in this together, cuz like we're all in this together, we're unified in vision. Um we're unified in vision. Um we're unified in vision. Um so, back when, you know, you mentioned so, back when, you know, you mentioned so, back when, you know, you mentioned Tony, when it was me and Tony and Ken Tony, when it was me and Tony and Ken Tony, when it was me and Tony and Ken Myers and Mark Waltz and Art Beeson and Myers and Mark Waltz and Art Beeson and Myers and Mark Waltz and Art Beeson and Jason Miller and Rob Wegner and Granger, Jason Miller and Rob Wegner and Granger, Jason Miller and Rob Wegner and Granger, we were in a really sweet time for we were in a really sweet time for we were in a really sweet time for probably a decade.

probably a decade. probably a decade. Um and really could Um and really could Um and really could lean on each other um for that. But I do lean on each other um for that. But I do lean on each other um for that. But I do think that's healthy for a pastors to think that's healthy for a pastors to think that's healthy for a pastors to have someone outside of their team and have someone outside of their team and have someone outside of their team and organization. So, you know, I've always organization. So, you know, I've always organization. So, you know, I've always had that. It's been a little bit had that. It's been a little bit had that. It's been a little bit different over the seasons of of people different over the seasons of of people different over the seasons of of people that um I can rely on. I've got my best that um I can rely on. I've got my best that um I can rely on. I've got my best friend um you actually met him recently, friend um you actually met him recently, friend um you actually met him recently, Danny. He's a pastor in Texas. He and I Danny. He's a pastor in Texas. He and I Danny. He's a pastor in Texas. He and I are in are in are in vastly different um organizations and vastly different um organizations and vastly different um organizations and even phases of life, but um he's someone even phases of life, but um he's someone even phases of life, but um he's someone I can, you know, I can talk to about I can, you know, I can talk to about I can, you know, I can talk to about anything um art stuff, personal stuff, anything um art stuff, personal stuff, anything um art stuff, personal stuff, ministry stuff, church stuff, leadership ministry stuff, church stuff, leadership ministry stuff, church stuff, leadership stuff. stuff. stuff. And so, it's been And so, it's been And so, it's been a long, you know, throughout throughout a long, you know, throughout throughout a long, you know, throughout throughout the four decades it's been a little bit the four decades it's been a little bit the four decades it's been a little bit different, but it's there's always been different, but it's there's always been different, but it's there's always been someone in something like that. someone in something like that. someone in something like that. You and Faith, your wife, have been You and Faith, your wife, have been You and Faith, your wife, have been together for many decades. How has together for many decades. How has together for many decades. How has ministry been on your marriage? ministry been on your marriage? ministry been on your marriage? Yeah, 35 years. Um Yeah, 35 years. Um Yeah, 35 years. Um interesting. So, interesting. So, interesting. So, um um um it was very different when we were it was very different when we were it was very different when we were married in local church and we're now married in local church and we're now married in local church and we're now married in married in married in um kind [clears throat] of church um kind [clears throat] of church um kind [clears throat] of church adjacent where we're working with adjacent where we're working with adjacent where we're working with churches, but not in any specific churches, but not in any specific churches, but not in any specific church.

church. church. The difference for her um and it was an The difference for her um and it was an The difference for her um and it was an identity shift for her. She loved being identity shift for her. She loved being identity shift for her. She loved being a pastor's wife. a pastor's wife. a pastor's wife. She loved, um, She loved, um, She loved, um, you know, just being able to be you know, just being able to be you know, just being able to be supportive. She was never on paid staff, supportive. She was never on paid staff, supportive. She was never on paid staff, but she was always always supportive and but she was always always supportive and but she was always always supportive and jumping in and volunteering and jumping in and volunteering and jumping in and volunteering and organizing and organizing and organizing and meeting with the ladies and pulling meeting with the ladies and pulling meeting with the ladies and pulling staff together. staff together. staff together. Um, and loved that. So, when we moved to Um, and loved that. So, when we moved to Um, and loved that. So, when we moved to Texas, uh, to work with Vanderblomen and Texas, uh, to work with Vanderblomen and Texas, uh, to work with Vanderblomen and then then then suddenly I'm getting on a plane for, you suddenly I'm getting on a plane for, you suddenly I'm getting on a plane for, you know, 3 days a week and she's going know, 3 days a week and she's going know, 3 days a week and she's going sometimes to church by herself, sometimes to church by herself, sometimes to church by herself, sometimes I'm there. sometimes I'm there. sometimes I'm there. Um, but we're not doing it together. Um, Um, but we're not doing it together. Um, Um, but we're not doing it together. Um, that was that we had a that was a that was that we had a that was a that was that we had a that was a struggle. We had a shift. struggle. We had a shift. struggle. We had a shift. Um, it took us it probably was a 2-year Um, it took us it probably was a 2-year Um, it took us it probably was a 2-year struggle of like, okay, we've we've got struggle of like, okay, we've we've got struggle of like, okay, we've we've got new identities, we have to shift into a new identities, we have to shift into a new identities, we have to shift into a new way of relating with each other. new way of relating with each other. new way of relating with each other. Um, Um, Um, so when we came back to Willow, so when we came back to Willow, so when we came back to Willow, uh, she was delighted cuz she got to be uh, she was delighted cuz she got to be uh, she was delighted cuz she got to be a pastor's wife again. a pastor's wife again. a pastor's wife again. And then even now staying at staying in And then even now staying at staying in And then even now staying at staying in Willow as far as our involvement and, Willow as far as our involvement and, Willow as far as our involvement and, uh, volunteer engagement, um, all of her uh, volunteer engagement, um, all of her uh, volunteer engagement, um, all of her all none of her friend network changed all none of her friend network changed all none of her friend network changed when I when I when I launched out and started leading launched out and started leading launched out and started leading Seamark. So, Seamark. So, Seamark. So, uh, but ups and downs, right? And uh, but ups and downs, right? And uh, but ups and downs, right? And especially in those years of, um, especially in those years of, um, especially in those years of, um, of raising the kids in the church in the of raising the kids in the church in the of raising the kids in the church in the spotlight, spotlight, spotlight, um, I got to interview my adult kids.

um, I got to interview my adult kids. um, I got to interview my adult kids. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. It was fun to talk to them recently and It was fun to talk to them recently and It was fun to talk to them recently and and just talk to them about like, what and just talk to them about like, what and just talk to them about like, what was was was hard, what was good about being raised hard, what was good about being raised hard, what was good about being raised in the church and in the spotlight. in the church and in the spotlight. in the church and in the spotlight. And they just kind of unpacked, you And they just kind of unpacked, you And they just kind of unpacked, you know, as now as 20-something to know, as now as 20-something to know, as now as 20-something to 30-something adults, 30-something adults, 30-something adults, um, four kids, they got to um, unpack um, four kids, they got to um, unpack um, four kids, they got to um, unpack like how that affected them, how it like how that affected them, how it like how that affected them, how it impacted them, how it led them to where impacted them, how it led them to where impacted them, how it led them to where they are today, what was good about it, they are today, what was good about it, they are today, what was good about it, what was hard about it. what was hard about it. what was hard about it. Yeah, I love my boys, but neither of Yeah, I love my boys, but neither of Yeah, I love my boys, but neither of them desires to be in the spotlight in them desires to be in the spotlight in them desires to be in the spotlight in any way, shape or form. any way, shape or form. any way, shape or form. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I wonder if that has something to do >> I wonder if that has something to do >> I wonder if that has something to do with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with ministry. I think it might. Yeah. with ministry. I think it might. Yeah. with ministry. I think it might. Yeah. Being raised in that. Being raised in that. Being raised in that. Yeah, and they're doing great things. Yeah, and they're doing great things. Yeah, and they're doing great things. Uh, okay, shifting gears a little bit. I Uh, okay, shifting gears a little bit. I Uh, okay, shifting gears a little bit. I love, um, the 40 lessons in 40 years of love, um, the 40 lessons in 40 years of love, um, the 40 lessons in 40 years of ministry resource that you made ministry resource that you made ministry resource that you made available to church leaders. We'll link available to church leaders. We'll link available to church leaders. We'll link to it or to where they can find it. Uh, to it or to where they can find it. Uh, to it or to where they can find it. Uh, I thought it was really good. Um, I thought it was really good. Um, I thought it was really good. Um, you've got some real nuggets there. It's you've got some real nuggets there. It's you've got some real nuggets there. It's just short, pithy just short, pithy just short, pithy wisdom nuggets that I've really wisdom nuggets that I've really wisdom nuggets that I've really appreciated. I want to drill down on appreciated. I want to drill down on appreciated. I want to drill down on some of those. You say conflict isn't some of those. You say conflict isn't some of those. You say conflict isn't the enemy, avoidance is. Uh-oh, you're the enemy, avoidance is. Uh-oh, you're the enemy, avoidance is. Uh-oh, you're reading a lot of people's mail. Uh, reading a lot of people's mail. Uh, reading a lot of people's mail. Uh, unpack that.

Yeah, I think Yeah, I think most of us and I, you know, I I wish I most of us and I, you know, I I wish I most of us and I, you know, I I wish I could measure it. Feels like 95% of could measure it. Feels like 95% of could measure it. Feels like 95% of church leaders church leaders church leaders avoid conflict. avoid conflict. avoid conflict. And, um, because you feel like it's And, um, because you feel like it's And, um, because you feel like it's ungraceful, it's ungraceful, it's it's ungraceful, it's ungraceful, it's it's ungraceful, it's ungraceful, it's it's not, you know, we're not, you know, we're not, you know, we're we're in ministry to love on people, to we're in ministry to love on people, to we're in ministry to love on people, to show them grace, to go the extra mile, show them grace, to go the extra mile, show them grace, to go the extra mile, all that. So, you feel like especially all that. So, you feel like especially all that. So, you feel like especially if it's in a if it's in a if it's in a staff relationship or a leadership staff relationship or a leadership staff relationship or a leadership relationship that, um, where you've got relationship that, um, where you've got relationship that, um, where you've got a conflict, it's like, man, a conflict, it's like, man, a conflict, it's like, man, let's just let's just see. Let's just let's just let's just see. Let's just let's just let's just see. Let's just kind of we'll love on them and see if it kind of we'll love on them and see if it kind of we'll love on them and see if it goes away. Rarely does, right? goes away. Rarely does, right? goes away. Rarely does, right? Um, and so I do think avoidance is the Um, and so I do think avoidance is the Um, and so I do think avoidance is the enemy enemy enemy uh, more often than conflict is the uh, more often than conflict is the uh, more often than conflict is the enemy. And so we have to enemy. And so we have to enemy. And so we have to like have disciplines, have systems in like have disciplines, have systems in like have disciplines, have systems in place so that we're, um, place so that we're, um, place so that we're, um, so that we really, you know, don't allow so that we really, you know, don't allow so that we really, you know, don't allow ourselves to ourselves to ourselves to uh, spiral into that. I I find with uh, spiral into that. I I find with uh, spiral into that. I I find with leadership, yeah, I work a ton a ton leadership, yeah, I work a ton a ton leadership, yeah, I work a ton a ton with, uh, leadership teams at churches. with, uh, leadership teams at churches. with, uh, leadership teams at churches. And so I'll sit in their meetings and And so I'll sit in their meetings and And so I'll sit in their meetings and coach them, you know, over time, 6, 12, coach them, you know, over time, 6, 12, coach them, you know, over time, 6, 12, 18 months. 18 months. 18 months. And, um, what I'll find is they'll be And, um, what I'll find is they'll be And, um, what I'll find is they'll be circling back to the same circling back to the same circling back to the same staff problem staff problem staff problem over and over and over and over again.

over and over and over and over again. over and over and over and over again. Still, no one's talk no one's talked to Still, no one's talk no one's talked to Still, no one's talk no one's talked to that person. And it's taken so much that person. And it's taken so much that person. And it's taken so much energy and time, energy and time, energy and time, um, and so, you know, sideways energy um, and so, you know, sideways energy um, and so, you know, sideways energy and it's like, let's just have a and it's like, let's just have a and it's like, let's just have a conversation. Let's conversation. Let's conversation. Let's let's let's let's let's hear from their perspective. Let's let's hear from their perspective. Let's let's hear from their perspective. Let's draw some lines in the sand. Let's say, draw some lines in the sand. Let's say, draw some lines in the sand. Let's say, hey, this this can't continue. We got to hey, this this can't continue. We got to hey, this this can't continue. We got to see some changes here. Let's put a plan see some changes here. Let's put a plan see some changes here. Let's put a plan together. Uh, that's hard to do and and together. Uh, that's hard to do and and together. Uh, that's hard to do and and leaders rarely do do that. leaders rarely do do that. leaders rarely do do that. So, let's go into a related one. Um, So, let's go into a related one. Um, So, let's go into a related one. Um, hire slowly, fire kindly, always with hire slowly, fire kindly, always with hire slowly, fire kindly, always with clarity. So, I want to take you back to clarity. So, I want to take you back to clarity. So, I want to take you back to when you realized you had to do some when you realized you had to do some when you realized you had to do some right-sizing at Willow, so to speak, right-sizing at Willow, so to speak, right-sizing at Willow, so to speak, right? And you're right? And you're right? And you're you're probably at that point laying off you're probably at that point laying off you're probably at that point laying off like a hundred or more staff or dozens, like a hundred or more staff or dozens, like a hundred or more staff or dozens, high dozens of staff. high dozens of staff. high dozens of staff. That's sort of a lot of pastors' That's sort of a lot of pastors' That's sort of a lot of pastors' nightmares, right? I sit down with a lot nightmares, right? I sit down with a lot nightmares, right? I sit down with a lot of leaders and it's that one guy on the of leaders and it's that one guy on the of leaders and it's that one guy on the executive team who executive team who executive team who has been there for 30 years, is making has been there for 30 years, is making has been there for 30 years, is making too much money, but kind of retired a too much money, but kind of retired a too much money, but kind of retired a decade ago and they don't know how to decade ago and they don't know how to decade ago and they don't know how to make it happen. You've got to go in make it happen. You've got to go in make it happen. You've got to go in there and make some wholesale change.

there and make some wholesale change. there and make some wholesale change. So, kind of hire slowly, fire quickly, So, kind of hire slowly, fire quickly, So, kind of hire slowly, fire quickly, always with clarity. always with clarity. always with clarity. How do you do that when you got a tough How do you do that when you got a tough How do you do that when you got a tough assignment like the one you had assignment like the one you had assignment like the one you had recently? recently? recently? What I encourage, um, church leaders to What I encourage, um, church leaders to What I encourage, um, church leaders to do and especially in this case, all do and especially in this case, all do and especially in this case, all right, you know, the the the folks that right, you know, the the the folks that right, you know, the the the folks that we had to off-ramp from Willow, it was we had to off-ramp from Willow, it was we had to off-ramp from Willow, it was because of financial crisis, which it because of financial crisis, which it because of financial crisis, which it came from a leadership crisis turned came from a leadership crisis turned came from a leadership crisis turned into a financial crisis. into a financial crisis. into a financial crisis. And so And so And so in most cases to no fault of their own, in most cases to no fault of their own, in most cases to no fault of their own, you know, it's just like we can't afford you know, it's just like we can't afford you know, it's just like we can't afford it to pay them. it to pay them. it to pay them. >> one's a little easier, I guess, because >> one's a little easier, I guess, because >> one's a little easier, I guess, because you can just say just But then somebody, you can just say just But then somebody, you can just say just But then somebody, okay, I've been sitting next to okay, I've been sitting next to okay, I've been sitting next to so-and-so for 20 years. so-and-so for 20 years. so-and-so for 20 years. I lose my job, he doesn't. How do you I lose my job, he doesn't. How do you I lose my job, he doesn't. How do you explain that? explain that? explain that? I don't think you have to explain I don't think you have to explain I don't think you have to explain everything. Um, I do think you have I do everything. Um, I do think you have I do everything. Um, I do think you have I do think that clarity is important with think that clarity is important with think that clarity is important with that person. that person. that person. You but you'll find everyone around that You but you'll find everyone around that You but you'll find everyone around that person demanding for the details and I person demanding for the details and I person demanding for the details and I think you have to be real careful with think you have to be real careful with think you have to be real careful with that and more and more all the time just that and more and more all the time just that and more and more all the time just cuz of, uh, HR or employee law kind of cuz of, uh, HR or employee law kind of cuz of, uh, HR or employee law kind of stuff. stuff. stuff. But I do think like the kind Here's But I do think like the kind Here's But I do think like the kind Here's where I find the kindly. So, hire where I find the kindly. So, hire where I find the kindly. So, hire slowly, fire kindly, slowly, fire kindly, slowly, fire kindly, um, and fire quickly um, and fire quickly um, and fire quickly and with clarity is that person needs to and with clarity is that person needs to and with clarity is that person needs to know where they weren't measuring up.

know where they weren't measuring up. know where they weren't measuring up. It's going to follow them the rest of It's going to follow them the rest of It's going to follow them the rest of their lives if they don't know. So, and their lives if they don't know. So, and their lives if they don't know. So, and and you're not responsible what they do and you're not responsible what they do and you're not responsible what they do with that information, but I do think with that information, but I do think with that information, but I do think it's important to have to have a process it's important to have to have a process it's important to have to have a process to communicate clearly, to communicate clearly, to communicate clearly, you know, you know, you know, you might not you might not be measuring you might not you might not be measuring you might not you might not be measuring up with performance, like you can't do up with performance, like you can't do up with performance, like you can't do your job very well, or it might be your job very well, or it might be your job very well, or it might be culture. It might be you're not living culture. It might be you're not living culture. It might be you're not living out our values. out our values. out our values. Um, so they need to know what that is. Um, so they need to know what that is. Um, so they need to know what that is. And, um, and the kindly part comes with And, um, and the kindly part comes with And, um, and the kindly part comes with do it soon enough and where you can care do it soon enough and where you can care do it soon enough and where you can care for that person. And I think especially for that person. And I think especially for that person. And I think especially in con- context of church, care for that in con- context of church, care for that in con- context of church, care for that person and care for their family for a person and care for their family for a person and care for their family for a little bit of time to help them make the little bit of time to help them make the little bit of time to help them make the bridge over to what's next for them. bridge over to what's next for them. bridge over to what's next for them. And we do that even when And we do that even when And we do that even when they did the church wrong. And if they they did the church wrong. And if they they did the church wrong. And if they they have stole money, they may have had they have stole money, they may have had they have stole money, they may have had sex with someone that they're not sex with someone that they're not sex with someone that they're not married to. married to. married to. I'm still going to do everything I can I'm still going to do everything I can I'm still going to do everything I can to graciously help them transition. Um, to graciously help them transition. Um, to graciously help them transition. Um, obviously they can't be on the team obviously they can't be on the team obviously they can't be on the team anymore. But we're going to help you anymore. But we're going to help you anymore. But we're going to help you know, we're for the sake of their know, we're for the sake of their know, we're for the sake of their family, um, family, um, family, um, and I'm probably not I'm not paying for and I'm probably not I'm not paying for and I'm probably not I'm not paying for 2 years, but I'm going to figure out 2 years, but I'm going to figure out 2 years, but I'm going to figure out what's the appropriate amount, um, and what's the appropriate amount, um, and what's the appropriate amount, um, and be kind in the firing and help them be kind in the firing and help them be kind in the firing and help them transition, help them move on to what's transition, help them move on to what's transition, help them move on to what's next.

next. next. So, let's take it into a specific So, let's take it into a specific So, let's take it into a specific situation. There is that person who's situation. There is that person who's situation. There is that person who's been on staff for a couple of decades, been on staff for a couple of decades, been on staff for a couple of decades, makes a big income, really hasn't been makes a big income, really hasn't been makes a big income, really hasn't been contributing, contributing, contributing, a bit thorny. Do you lead with the a bit thorny. Do you lead with the a bit thorny. Do you lead with the reasons or do you just say, hey, we got reasons or do you just say, hey, we got reasons or do you just say, hey, we got a a a tough situation here, you're not going tough situation here, you're not going tough situation here, you're not going to be on the team moving forward, and to be on the team moving forward, and to be on the team moving forward, and then let them ask for reasons? Like what then let them ask for reasons? Like what then let them ask for reasons? Like what what is your advice on that? What's your what is your advice on that? What's your what is your advice on that? What's your best advice? best advice? best advice? So, it'll be a little bit So, it'll be a little bit So, it'll be a little bit circumstantial. If if there is a circumstantial. If if there is a circumstantial. If if there is a money reason money reason money reason why you're making you're you know, it's why you're making you're you know, it's why you're making you're you know, it's like we have we we we need to cut two like we have we we we need to cut two like we have we we we need to cut two people from the team. people from the team. people from the team. Um, we're choosing these two because Um, we're choosing these two because Um, we're choosing these two because they've they've they've been slackers or they don't perform well been slackers or they don't perform well been slackers or they don't perform well or whatever. or whatever. or whatever. So, I might lead with the whole staff, So, I might lead with the whole staff, So, I might lead with the whole staff, hey, we we're going to have to lay off hey, we we're going to have to lay off hey, we we're going to have to lay off two people and we're having some two people and we're having some two people and we're having some conversations tomorrow about it. So, conversations tomorrow about it. So, conversations tomorrow about it. So, I just want you to know that's coming. I just want you to know that's coming. I just want you to know that's coming. Then you're having the conversation with Then you're having the conversation with Then you're having the conversation with the two people and they're going to say, the two people and they're going to say, the two people and they're going to say, why me? why me? why me? And then you're going to say, well, And then you're going to say, well, And then you're going to say, well, we don't have money to pay for as many we don't have money to pay for as many we don't have money to pay for as many staff as we have anymore. And there are staff as we have anymore. And there are staff as we have anymore. And there are some things that led us and and let let some things that led us and and let let some things that led us and and let let me just be straight with you.

me just be straight with you. me just be straight with you. It shouldn't be the first time they're It shouldn't be the first time they're It shouldn't be the first time they're hearing it. hearing it. hearing it. It should be something that showed up in It should be something that showed up in It should be something that showed up in previous conversations, otherwise it's previous conversations, otherwise it's previous conversations, otherwise it's just unkind. just unkind. just unkind. But it's it's something like, man, you But it's it's something like, man, you But it's it's something like, man, you know, you know, we've been talking about know, you know, we've been talking about know, you know, we've been talking about this over the last 6 months. We just this over the last 6 months. We just this over the last 6 months. We just haven't seen a lot of improvement and so haven't seen a lot of improvement and so haven't seen a lot of improvement and so that's why, that's why, that's why, uh, it wasn't easy to choose you, but uh, it wasn't easy to choose you, but uh, it wasn't easy to choose you, but that's why it became clear, um, that that's why it became clear, um, that that's why it became clear, um, that your position's being terminated. your position's being terminated. your position's being terminated. And when you do it well, cuz I'm sure And when you do it well, cuz I'm sure And when you do it well, cuz I'm sure you've done it poorly over four decades, you've done it poorly over four decades, you've done it poorly over four decades, I'm sure you've done it well. When you I'm sure you've done it well. When you I'm sure you've done it well. When you do it well, everyone goes, oh yeah, that do it well, everyone goes, oh yeah, that do it well, everyone goes, oh yeah, that makes total sense. Thank you so much. Or makes total sense. Thank you so much. Or makes total sense. Thank you so much. Or does it sometimes blow up in your face? does it sometimes blow up in your face? does it sometimes blow up in your face? Even if you do it well, it doesn't not Even if you do it well, it doesn't not Even if you do it well, it doesn't not everyone's going to understand. Yeah, everyone's going to understand. Yeah, everyone's going to understand. Yeah, people don't believe what you're saying. people don't believe what you're saying. people don't believe what you're saying. People are going to leave upset cuz they People are going to leave upset cuz they People are going to leave upset cuz they they love that person and that's the they love that person and that's the they love that person and that's the closest that person they're to. Oh, closest that person they're to. Oh, closest that person they're to. Oh, that's my small group leader and that's my small group leader and that's my small group leader and um, and there must be something going on um, and there must be something going on um, and there must be something going on here and we can't trust the leader. I here and we can't trust the leader. I here and we can't trust the leader. I mean, there's a there's a bit of that mean, there's a there's a bit of that mean, there's a there's a bit of that and I think in those do you can only say and I think in those do you can only say and I think in those do you can only say what you can say and I think the closer what you can say and I think the closer what you can say and I think the closer people are to the people are to the people are to the the center, um, you can say a little bit the center, um, you can say a little bit the center, um, you can say a little bit more. more. more. Um, but when you get much you get much Um, but when you get much you get much Um, but when you get much you get much further out from that and you can't say further out from that and you can't say further out from that and you can't say a lot and people will still not a lot and people will still not a lot and people will still not understand.

understand. understand. And you just kind of move forward with And you just kind of move forward with And you just kind of move forward with integrity and just keep making really integrity and just keep making really integrity and just keep making really good decisions. So, it's like they don't good decisions. So, it's like they don't good decisions. So, it's like they don't understand that decision, but they've understand that decision, but they've understand that decision, but they've seen nine other decisions that they seen nine other decisions that they seen nine other decisions that they trust you with and it's like, okay, trust you with and it's like, okay, trust you with and it's like, okay, there must be something going on here I there must be something going on here I there must be something going on here I don't see. don't see. don't see. Yeah, and I think that's something too. Yeah, and I think that's something too. Yeah, and I think that's something too. You hinted at it earlier and it's worth You hinted at it earlier and it's worth You hinted at it earlier and it's worth drilling down on. There's almost a drilling down on. There's almost a drilling down on. There's almost a like there's a community aspect to like there's a community aspect to like there's a community aspect to church that's super helpful and healthy church that's super helpful and healthy church that's super helpful and healthy and then there's a gossip access to, you and then there's a gossip access to, you and then there's a gossip access to, you know, part of church that is not know, part of church that is not know, part of church that is not healthy. And it seems when there's some healthy. And it seems when there's some healthy. And it seems when there's some kind of termination or parting of the kind of termination or parting of the kind of termination or parting of the ways, ways, ways, people seem to have a unhealthy need to people seem to have a unhealthy need to people seem to have a unhealthy need to know. And you would think, well, that's know. And you would think, well, that's know. And you would think, well, that's more true of smaller churches, but it's more true of smaller churches, but it's more true of smaller churches, but it's true of a large church with social true of a large church with social true of a large church with social media. Hey, so-and-so got let go. Blah, media. Hey, so-and-so got let go. Blah, media. Hey, so-and-so got let go. Blah, blah, blah. How come? blah, blah. How come? blah, blah. How come? I think you're right. My instinct over I think you're right. My instinct over I think you're right. My instinct over the years has been less and less public the years has been less and less public the years has been less and less public information. That not everybody needs to information. That not everybody needs to information. That not everybody needs to know. It's not a secret or whatever, but know. It's not a secret or whatever, but know. It's not a secret or whatever, but it's like, no, this person's dignity, it's like, no, this person's dignity, it's like, no, this person's dignity, story, like and part of leadership is story, like and part of leadership is story, like and part of leadership is being misunderstood, right? I'm just being misunderstood, right? I'm just being misunderstood, right? I'm just going to take some bullets right now going to take some bullets right now going to take some bullets right now for a little while, and then wisdom is for a little while, and then wisdom is for a little while, and then wisdom is proved right down the road by all of our proved right down the road by all of our proved right down the road by all of our children. What are your thoughts on children. What are your thoughts on children. What are your thoughts on that? Like, that? Like, that? Like, like, like, like, how much should you be saying publicly how much should you be saying publicly how much should you be saying publicly and where is the line on that?

and where is the line on that? and where is the line on that? Yeah, I would agree with you. Not I Yeah, I would agree with you. Not I Yeah, I would agree with you. Not I mean, in this in this day and age, not mean, in this in this day and age, not mean, in this in this day and age, not much. much. much. Um Yeah. I mean, it used to be like, Um Yeah. I mean, it used to be like, Um Yeah. I mean, it used to be like, don't record the meeting. That's it. don't record the meeting. That's it. don't record the meeting. That's it. >> longer with us. Or do you even People, >> longer with us. Or do you even People, >> longer with us. Or do you even People, this comes up in our Art of Leadership this comes up in our Art of Leadership this comes up in our Art of Leadership Academy, Academy, Academy, and I'm like, I think you should only and I'm like, I think you should only and I'm like, I think you should only announce something publicly if they had announce something publicly if they had announce something publicly if they had a senior public role. a senior public role. a senior public role. Period. Like, if the lead pastor is Period. Like, if the lead pastor is Period. Like, if the lead pastor is gone, right? gone, right? gone, right? Or one of the teaching team is gone, Or one of the teaching team is gone, Or one of the teaching team is gone, maybe that's worthy of some kind of maybe that's worthy of some kind of maybe that's worthy of some kind of acknowledgement. acknowledgement. acknowledgement. But if you're letting go of ministry But if you're letting go of ministry But if you're letting go of ministry staff, you know, staff, you know, staff, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> to make it depend on the size of the >> to make it depend on the size of the >> to make it depend on the size of the church. I mean, if it's a church of 200 church. I mean, if it's a church of 200 church. I mean, if it's a church of 200 and they have three staff and you're and they have three staff and you're and they have three staff and you're letting one go and they've been there letting one go and they've been there letting one go and they've been there for 14 years, for 14 years, for 14 years, then it's like, okay, we're probably then it's like, okay, we're probably then it's like, okay, we're probably having to say something um broadly about having to say something um broadly about having to say something um broadly about this. And it's maybe not a Sunday this. And it's maybe not a Sunday this. And it's maybe not a Sunday morning, but it may be morning, but it may be morning, but it may be your quarterly stakeholders meeting, your quarterly stakeholders meeting, your quarterly stakeholders meeting, whatever you do at your church. whatever you do at your church. whatever you do at your church. I do think I do agree with you. Like, I do think I do agree with you. Like, I do think I do agree with you. Like, you know, if it's a church much bigger you know, if it's a church much bigger you know, if it's a church much bigger than that, really, I'm only saying than that, really, I'm only saying than that, really, I'm only saying something um publicly if it you know, something um publicly if it you know, something um publicly if it you know, it's the worship pastor that they see it's the worship pastor that they see it's the worship pastor that they see every single week every single week every single week or it's the senior pastor, the lead you or it's the senior pastor, the lead you or it's the senior pastor, the lead you know, the teaching pastor, it's someone know, the teaching pastor, it's someone know, the teaching pastor, it's someone that's really high profile for the that's really high profile for the that's really high profile for the entire church.

entire church. entire church. Otherwise, keeping it Otherwise, keeping it Otherwise, keeping it pretty pretty downscale. And I and I'll pretty pretty downscale. And I and I'll pretty pretty downscale. And I and I'll also say like when I'm also say like when I'm also say like when I'm when I'm like talking like you're when I'm like talking like you're when I'm like talking like you're probably communicating that to your probably communicating that to your probably communicating that to your staff, um staff, um staff, um potentially. So, if you're talking to potentially. So, if you're talking to potentially. So, if you're talking to your staff, your staff, your staff, I'm asking I'm like calling them to the I'm asking I'm like calling them to the I'm asking I'm like calling them to the high road. I'm saying, hey guys, high road. I'm saying, hey guys, high road. I'm saying, hey guys, like, when when this information goes like, when when this information goes like, when when this information goes out, all of you are carrying a out, all of you are carrying a out, all of you are carrying a metaphorical metaphorical metaphorical uh bucket of water or a bucket of gas. uh bucket of water or a bucket of gas. uh bucket of water or a bucket of gas. And when people start to flare up about And when people start to flare up about And when people start to flare up about this, you can pour water on it and you this, you can pour water on it and you this, you can pour water on it and you can douse it and you can say, you know can douse it and you can say, you know can douse it and you can say, you know what? You don't have all the information what? You don't have all the information what? You don't have all the information and uh let's just let's just trust our and uh let's just let's just trust our and uh let's just let's just trust our leadership. Or you can pour gas on it leadership. Or you can pour gas on it leadership. Or you can pour gas on it and you can say, yeah, I bet they I bet and you can say, yeah, I bet they I bet and you can say, yeah, I bet they I bet they did put under the rug. I bet they did put under the rug. I bet they did put under the rug. I bet there's something there that we don't there's something there that we don't there's something there that we don't know. There's probably people we can't know. There's probably people we can't know. There's probably people we can't trust. And and we all have that option trust. And and we all have that option trust. And and we all have that option and it's it's with little tiny tiny and it's it's with little tiny tiny and it's it's with little tiny tiny words or short phrases or gestures or words or short phrases or gestures or words or short phrases or gestures or facial inflections in those kinds of facial inflections in those kinds of facial inflections in those kinds of things where we're either pouring water things where we're either pouring water things where we're either pouring water or pouring fire on the situation. or pouring fire on the situation. or pouring fire on the situation. What is the single biggest hiring What is the single biggest hiring What is the single biggest hiring mistake that you keep seeing churches mistake that you keep seeing churches mistake that you keep seeing churches make?

Oh, I think one Oh, I think one comes to immediately to mind would be uh comes to immediately to mind would be uh comes to immediately to mind would be uh hiring for skill and not for culture. hiring for skill and not for culture. hiring for skill and not for culture. Um the person can do it, they've done Um the person can do it, they've done Um the person can do it, they've done it, it, it, but you don't dive deep enough to see if but you don't dive deep enough to see if but you don't dive deep enough to see if they're going to be a culture fit and they're going to be a culture fit and they're going to be a culture fit and like really living out your values. like really living out your values. like really living out your values. Um I heard um Jerry Hurley at Um I heard um Jerry Hurley at Um I heard um Jerry Hurley at Life.Church, you know Jerry, said uh in Life.Church, you know Jerry, said uh in Life.Church, you know Jerry, said uh in relation to values, he said, um don't relation to values, he said, um don't relation to values, he said, um don't hire people who uh don't hire people and hire people who uh don't hire people and hire people who uh don't hire people and then bring them in and teach them your then bring them in and teach them your then bring them in and teach them your values. Hire people who already live out values. Hire people who already live out values. Hire people who already live out your values and then just reinforce your values and then just reinforce your values and then just reinforce them. them. them. And I just think that's so smart. And And I just think that's so smart. And And I just think that's so smart. And then the the obvious question is, well, then the the obvious question is, well, then the the obvious question is, well, how do I find out if they're living out how do I find out if they're living out how do I find out if they're living out our values? So, our values? So, our values? So, and you you know, depending on what your and you you know, depending on what your and you you know, depending on what your values are, you figure out ways to do values are, you figure out ways to do values are, you figure out ways to do that. Um spending time with I think we that. Um spending time with I think we that. Um spending time with I think we know that best when we're hiring from know that best when we're hiring from know that best when we're hiring from within the church. We've already seen within the church. We've already seen within the church. We've already seen them live out our values. It's harder them live out our values. It's harder them live out our values. It's harder when they live in Albuquerque and you're when they live in Albuquerque and you're when they live in Albuquerque and you're in South Bend. Um you have to figure out in South Bend. Um you have to figure out in South Bend. Um you have to figure out ways to get close to them, approximate ways to get close to them, approximate ways to get close to them, approximate to them to see if they're living out to them to see if they're living out to them to see if they're living out your values. your values. your values. How do you do that? How do you determine How do you do that? How do you determine How do you do that? How do you determine that when you're making a hire? that when you're making a hire? that when you're making a hire? Spend time. So, um Spend time. So, um Spend time. So, um you know, bring them in uh for you know, you know, bring them in uh for you know, you know, bring them in uh for you know, we're probably not hiring someone from we're probably not hiring someone from we're probably not hiring someone from We're probably not moving someone from We're probably not moving someone from We're probably not moving someone from another part of the country unless it's another part of the country unless it's another part of the country unless it's a higher level position.

a higher level position. a higher level position. So, it's worth So, it's worth So, it's worth Let's go there. I've I've like flown Let's go there. I've I've like flown Let's go there. I've I've like flown across the country with, you know, an across the country with, you know, an across the country with, you know, an associate and let's just spend two days associate and let's just spend two days associate and let's just spend two days in their environment. Let's talk our way in their environment. Let's talk our way in their environment. Let's talk our way into being at family dinner with them. into being at family dinner with them. into being at family dinner with them. Let's um spend some time with people Let's um spend some time with people Let's um spend some time with people that they've been doing ministry in life that they've been doing ministry in life that they've been doing ministry in life with. with. with. >> go to them. You don't necessarily just >> go to them. You don't necessarily just >> go to them. You don't necessarily just bring them to you. You go to them and bring them to you. You go to them and bring them to you. You go to them and see them in their native environment. see them in their native environment. see them in their native environment. Wow. Both and and I Wow. Both and and I Wow. Both and and I and I think like an extended like you and I think like an extended like you and I think like an extended like you bring them in and they're with you from bring them in and they're with you from bring them in and they're with you from noon to 4:00 p.m. You're not going noon to 4:00 p.m. You're not going noon to 4:00 p.m. You're not going You're just going to see the very best. You're just going to see the very best. You're just going to see the very best. But if you figure out a time, you bring But if you figure out a time, you bring But if you figure out a time, you bring them in and it's like, you're here for them in and it's like, you're here for them in and it's like, you're here for two days and you're going to hang out two days and you're going to hang out two days and you're going to hang out with these people and you're going to with these people and you're going to with these people and you're going to this barbecue and they I'm going to take this barbecue and they I'm going to take this barbecue and they I'm going to take you to a movie and let's go do this over you to a movie and let's go do this over you to a movie and let's go do this over here and I want to drive you around town here and I want to drive you around town here and I want to drive you around town and let's and let's and let's those kinds of things, you get extended those kinds of things, you get extended those kinds of things, you get extended time in a car and conversations with time in a car and conversations with time in a car and conversations with someone, you start to see who they are someone, you start to see who they are someone, you start to see who they are pretty quickly. pretty quickly. pretty quickly. What do you look for? Again, it depends like I I think if your Again, it depends like I I think if your values are dialed in, you're like, okay, values are dialed in, you're like, okay, values are dialed in, you're like, okay, I'm really looking for these five, six, I'm really looking for these five, six, I'm really looking for these five, six, seven things that we have determined are seven things that we have determined are seven things that we have determined are important in our culture.

important in our culture. important in our culture. I'm looking for I'm looking for I'm looking for um like just I'll I'll just talk um like just I'll I'll just talk um like just I'll I'll just talk generally for a second. generally for a second. generally for a second. I'm looking for someone who isn't trash I'm looking for someone who isn't trash I'm looking for someone who isn't trash talking the place that they just came talking the place that they just came talking the place that they just came from or are coming from. from or are coming from. from or are coming from. Um that they're not negative about Um that they're not negative about Um that they're not negative about previous their previous church. Even if previous their previous church. Even if previous their previous church. Even if they got fired, they got fired, they got fired, um um um and or even if they quit, you know, and or even if they quit, you know, and or even if they quit, you know, whatever. It's like whatever. It's like whatever. It's like And I really appreciate that. If it's And I really appreciate that. If it's And I really appreciate that. If it's someone who uh another thing would be if someone who uh another thing would be if someone who uh another thing would be if it's someone who it's someone who it's someone who has messed up in their life at some has messed up in their life at some has messed up in their life at some point in a public way. And we know we've point in a public way. And we know we've point in a public way. And we know we've all messed up, but it's been public and all messed up, but it's been public and all messed up, but it's been public and they got let go 10 years ago because of they got let go 10 years ago because of they got let go 10 years ago because of Like, I want to know if in that like, Like, I want to know if in that like, Like, I want to know if in that like, are they hiding the fact that they went are they hiding the fact that they went are they hiding the fact that they went through that or are they like they're through that or are they like they're through that or are they like they're that's part of their story now and that's part of their story now and that's part of their story now and they're actually living through their they're actually living through their they're actually living through their story story story and it's it's part of like that's part and it's it's part of like that's part and it's it's part of like that's part of who they are and the and how they're of who they are and the and how they're of who they are and the and how they're leading today. leading today. leading today. Um I think that's that's really Um I think that's that's really Um I think that's that's really important. I think just you know, important. I think just you know, important. I think just you know, graciousness, humility, the way that graciousness, humility, the way that graciousness, humility, the way that they treat the server at the restaurant they treat the server at the restaurant they treat the server at the restaurant that you guys are eating at. Um a sense that you guys are eating at. Um a sense that you guys are eating at. Um a sense of like, is this especially if they're of like, is this especially if they're of like, is this especially if they're going to be on your team, is this going to be on your team, is this going to be on your team, is this someone I want to wake up every day and someone I want to wake up every day and someone I want to wake up every day and just like go to work with?

just like go to work with? just like go to work with? If you're getting any sense of like, If you're getting any sense of like, If you're getting any sense of like, this person is annoying or obnoxious or this person is annoying or obnoxious or this person is annoying or obnoxious or I don't think I would, I don't think I would, I don't think I would, not a good fit for your team. Maybe not a good fit for your team. Maybe not a good fit for your team. Maybe maybe if you have a large organization, maybe if you have a large organization, maybe if you have a large organization, they could be somewhere on the team, but they could be somewhere on the team, but they could be somewhere on the team, but maybe not your team. maybe not your team. maybe not your team. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the phrase that's coming up to my mind and phrase that's coming up to my mind and phrase that's coming up to my mind and feel free to disagree. And this isn't feel free to disagree. And this isn't feel free to disagree. And this isn't the sole determinant. There is values, the sole determinant. There is values, the sole determinant. There is values, faith, the whole business, but the faith, the whole business, but the faith, the whole business, but the phrase easy hang comes up. Is this phrase easy hang comes up. Is this phrase easy hang comes up. Is this person an easy hang? Like, is this person an easy hang? Like, is this person an easy hang? Like, is this somebody that you would want to be on a somebody that you would want to be on a somebody that you would want to be on a long trip with? We're planning our fall long trip with? We're planning our fall long trip with? We're planning our fall retreat for our team. We're looking at retreat for our team. We're looking at retreat for our team. We're looking at bringing in one of our contractors. bringing in one of our contractors. bringing in one of our contractors. And you know, that person might end up And you know, that person might end up And you know, that person might end up staying with my wife and I, you know, in staying with my wife and I, you know, in staying with my wife and I, you know, in our part of the Airbnb that we're our part of the Airbnb that we're our part of the Airbnb that we're renting out. And I'm like, oh yeah, renting out. And I'm like, oh yeah, renting out. And I'm like, oh yeah, that'd be easy. That'd be easy. Or if that'd be easy. That'd be easy. Or if that'd be easy. That'd be easy. Or if you're like, I don't know. Like, do we you're like, I don't know. Like, do we you're like, I don't know. Like, do we want that person? Might not be like, is want that person? Might not be like, is want that person? Might not be like, is there anything about that ease of there anything about that ease of there anything about that ease of hanging out with somebody that is hanging out with somebody that is hanging out with somebody that is actually a factor? actually a factor? actually a factor? Absolutely. And the the churches I've Absolutely. And the the churches I've Absolutely. And the the churches I've been at and even at Vanderbilt, we would been at and even at Vanderbilt, we would been at and even at Vanderbilt, we would always have a list of those people.

always have a list of those people. always have a list of those people. Like, we have no positions open right Like, we have no positions open right Like, we have no positions open right now, but like, we have a list of the, now, but like, we have a list of the, now, but like, we have a list of the, you know, 30 people in the church or two you know, 30 people in the church or two you know, 30 people in the church or two people, three people in the church that people, three people in the church that people, three people in the church that like, man, if we could if they could be like, man, if we could if they could be like, man, if we could if they could be on our team, on our team, on our team, that'd be amazing because they add so that'd be amazing because they add so that'd be amazing because they add so much value in any room they're in. They much value in any room they're in. They much value in any room they're in. They raise the energy. They're fantastic. raise the energy. They're fantastic. raise the energy. They're fantastic. I don't know if they could do a specific I don't know if they could do a specific I don't know if they could do a specific role, but like, we want to look at them role, but like, we want to look at them role, but like, we want to look at them first. first. first. Um and it's the I I I haven't thought of Um and it's the I I I haven't thought of Um and it's the I I I haven't thought of those words, easy hang, but that's those words, easy hang, but that's those words, easy hang, but that's that's a piece of it for sure. that's a piece of it for sure. that's a piece of it for sure. Well, it's strange because you know, Well, it's strange because you know, Well, it's strange because you know, we're a tiny team. We're a remote we're a tiny team. We're a remote we're a tiny team. We're a remote company, but they were all here last company, but they were all here last company, but they were all here last month, like six weeks ago. And it's month, like six weeks ago. And it's month, like six weeks ago. And it's funny because when they it was this one funny because when they it was this one funny because when they it was this one was at my house. It was pretty easy to was at my house. It was pretty easy to was at my house. It was pretty easy to do, but when do, but when do, but when when they walked in, it was like they when they walked in, it was like they when they walked in, it was like they were there yesterday and everything was were there yesterday and everything was were there yesterday and everything was easy and everything was fine. And those easy and everything was fine. And those easy and everything was fine. And those were long days, like some 12, 16-hour were long days, like some 12, 16-hour were long days, like some 12, 16-hour days together. days together. days together. Uh but but if it's easy, it just Work is Uh but but if it's easy, it just Work is Uh but but if it's easy, it just Work is hard enough. Why make it more difficult hard enough. Why make it more difficult hard enough. Why make it more difficult with the people that you work with, with the people that you work with, with the people that you work with, right? That's why I look at it. So, right? That's why I look at it. So, right? That's why I look at it. So, we're blessed. You you mentioned we're blessed. You you mentioned we're blessed. You you mentioned spotting talent. spotting talent. spotting talent. So many leaders I talk to are struggling So many leaders I talk to are struggling So many leaders I talk to are struggling to develop a leadership pipeline. They to develop a leadership pipeline. They to develop a leadership pipeline. They don't know how to do it. What are some don't know how to do it. What are some don't know how to do it. What are some key lessons about spotting talent?

Yeah. Um Yeah. Um So, it's part of what we just talked So, it's part of what we just talked So, it's part of what we just talked about in a sense of like, who do we about in a sense of like, who do we about in a sense of like, who do we think would be great on our team? I was think would be great on our team? I was think would be great on our team? I was thinking as you were talking, thinking as you were talking, thinking as you were talking, like a great way to vet that. Like, so like a great way to vet that. Like, so like a great way to vet that. Like, so your your retreat and I I my team's your your retreat and I I my team's your your retreat and I I my team's offsite as well of um offsite as well of um offsite as well of um like, bringing a contractor who doesn't like, bringing a contractor who doesn't like, bringing a contractor who doesn't even know you're thinking about hiring even know you're thinking about hiring even know you're thinking about hiring them or or asking them to be on your them or or asking them to be on your them or or asking them to be on your team, but like, see if you like you can team, but like, see if you like you can team, but like, see if you like you can survive in an Airbnb for two days survive in an Airbnb for two days survive in an Airbnb for two days together, three days together. Yeah. together, three days together. Yeah. together, three days together. Yeah. >> Those kinds of things. Um And I think >> Those kinds of things. Um And I think >> Those kinds of things. Um And I think that's true with um that's true with um that's true with um uh uh uh with hiring staff as well. So, what I'm with hiring staff as well. So, what I'm with hiring staff as well. So, what I'm looking for like when I'm thinking looking for like when I'm thinking looking for like when I'm thinking spotting talent, I'm looking for someone spotting talent, I'm looking for someone spotting talent, I'm looking for someone who's like growth minded. who's like growth minded. who's like growth minded. Um they're like I when I look in the Um they're like I when I look in the Um they're like I when I look in the rearview mirror of their life, they've rearview mirror of their life, they've rearview mirror of their life, they've grown some things, they've led some grown some things, they've led some grown some things, they've led some things. It's not It's not hypothetical. things. It's not It's not hypothetical. things. It's not It's not hypothetical. >> leading, right? They're already leading. >> leading, right? They're already leading. >> leading, right? They're already leading. They're already They're already They're already leading at a high level. I'm looking for leading at a high level. I'm looking for leading at a high level. I'm looking for like influencers, like galvanizers. Um like influencers, like galvanizers. Um like influencers, like galvanizers. Um for most positions, not every position, for most positions, not every position, for most positions, not every position, I'm looking for someone who can I'm looking for someone who can I'm looking for someone who can galvanize a room uh around a project, galvanize a room uh around a project, galvanize a room uh around a project, around whatever we're trying to get off around whatever we're trying to get off around whatever we're trying to get off the ground at that time. the ground at that time. the ground at that time. Looking for someone who's humble, who's Looking for someone who's humble, who's Looking for someone who's humble, who's a learner, who's teachable.

a learner, who's teachable. a learner, who's teachable. That's super important in just about That's super important in just about That's super important in just about every position. every position. every position. I think high EQ is another one um I think high EQ is another one um I think high EQ is another one um that comes to mind. Someone that that that comes to mind. Someone that that that comes to mind. Someone that that knows how to um knows how to um knows how to um turn down the heat of the fire in a room turn down the heat of the fire in a room turn down the heat of the fire in a room when they walk in when there's some when they walk in when there's some when they walk in when there's some tension. tension. tension. Um they've got they just got the EQ to Um they've got they just got the EQ to Um they've got they just got the EQ to like, okay, we got we got to bring this like, okay, we got we got to bring this like, okay, we got we got to bring this down um or we've got to delay this down um or we've got to delay this down um or we've got to delay this conversation or we've got to be a little conversation or we've got to be a little conversation or we've got to be a little bit more um engaging with this person bit more um engaging with this person bit more um engaging with this person because they're coming from a difficult because they're coming from a difficult because they're coming from a difficult place, whatever. They're just tuned in place, whatever. They're just tuned in place, whatever. They're just tuned in with a high EQ. with a high EQ. with a high EQ. That's true. That all resonates. Those That's true. That all resonates. Those That's true. That all resonates. Those are the people I want on my team, for are the people I want on my team, for are the people I want on my team, for sure. Um couple of other principles I sure. Um couple of other principles I sure. Um couple of other principles I want to drill down on. want to drill down on. want to drill down on. Momentum is fragile. Momentum is fragile. Momentum is fragile. Um Um Um you probably had seasons where momentum you probably had seasons where momentum you probably had seasons where momentum has evaporated. has evaporated. has evaporated. What happens? How do you talk about the What happens? How do you talk about the What happens? How do you talk about the fragility of momentum? Because I think fragility of momentum? Because I think fragility of momentum? Because I think if you've led for a little while, you if you've led for a little while, you if you've led for a little while, you realize that is very true. realize that is very true. realize that is very true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, probably the clearest for me Yeah, probably the clearest for me Yeah, probably the clearest for me uh would be uh would be uh would be at W. W. Grainger. I was there for 20 at W. W. Grainger. I was there for 20 at W. W. Grainger. I was there for 20 years. And we probably had momentum for years. And we probably had momentum for years. And we probably had momentum for 12, maybe 14 years where 12, maybe 14 years where 12, maybe 14 years where you know, like it felt like everything you know, like it felt like everything you know, like it felt like everything that we tried just turned to gold. It's that we tried just turned to gold. It's that we tried just turned to gold. It's just like magic.

just like magic. just like magic. >> what you did. Just like boom, there it >> what you did. Just like boom, there it >> what you did. Just like boom, there it is. is. is. Yep. Yep. Yep. And when you have it like that, you And when you have it like that, you And when you have it like that, you really begin I mean, the the shadow side really begin I mean, the the shadow side really begin I mean, the the shadow side of that is you begin to think um of that is you begin to think um of that is you begin to think um it's something we're doing. Like we just it's something we're doing. Like we just it's something we're doing. Like we just found the formula, man. We got this found the formula, man. We got this found the formula, man. We got this thing dialed in. Come to us to find the thing dialed in. Come to us to find the thing dialed in. Come to us to find the secrets. secrets. secrets. Um and people were. I mean, by the Um and people were. I mean, by the Um and people were. I mean, by the hundreds coming to Grainger to figure hundreds coming to Grainger to figure hundreds coming to Grainger to figure out what was going on. And so So like out what was going on. And so So like out what was going on. And so So like but momentum is amazing. It's awesome. but momentum is amazing. It's awesome. but momentum is amazing. It's awesome. Um I mean, I much rather have positive Um I mean, I much rather have positive Um I mean, I much rather have positive momentum than negative. momentum than negative. momentum than negative. The on the other side and we went there The on the other side and we went there The on the other side and we went there for a season at Grainger where for a season at Grainger where for a season at Grainger where suddenly it wasn't working. We started suddenly it wasn't working. We started suddenly it wasn't working. We started trailing off and then people started trailing off and then people started trailing off and then people started getting mad and leaving. Um and when getting mad and leaving. Um and when getting mad and leaving. Um and when that happens, you begin to like for us that happens, you begin to like for us that happens, you begin to like for us we got desperate because we had positive we got desperate because we had positive we got desperate because we had positive momentum for so many years and it's like momentum for so many years and it's like momentum for so many years and it's like you start you start you start and leaving. and leaving. and leaving. And when that happens, you begin to like And when that happens, you begin to like And when that happens, you begin to like for us we got desperate because we had for us we got desperate because we had for us we got desperate because we had positive momentum for so many years. positive momentum for so many years. positive momentum for so many years. And it's like you start pulling all And it's like you start pulling all And it's like you start pulling all these levers and then you don't even these levers and then you don't even these levers and then you don't even know if what you're pulling with is know if what you're pulling with is know if what you're pulling with is working cuz you pull nine levers at working cuz you pull nine levers at working cuz you pull nine levers at once. once. once. And sometimes when you're desperate, you And sometimes when you're desperate, you And sometimes when you're desperate, you just begin to point fingers and you say, just begin to point fingers and you say, just begin to point fingers and you say, "Well, it's cuz of you or you're not "Well, it's cuz of you or you're not "Well, it's cuz of you or you're not leading well." And that can have a leading well." And that can have a leading well." And that can have a devastating effect impact on devastating effect impact on devastating effect impact on culture and attitudes um and all that.

culture and attitudes um and all that. culture and attitudes um and all that. I think it well it was different walking I think it well it was different walking I think it well it was different walking into into into a place that all of the momentum was a place that all of the momentum was a place that all of the momentum was going in the wrong direction when we got going in the wrong direction when we got going in the wrong direction when we got there. Of course, for four decades there. Of course, for four decades there. Of course, for four decades arguably it was going in the right arguably it was going in the right arguably it was going in the right direction. direction. direction. But by the time we got there, it was But by the time we got there, it was But by the time we got there, it was really um really um really um going down and so you know, the church going down and so you know, the church going down and so you know, the church was in a state of crisis and conflict was in a state of crisis and conflict was in a state of crisis and conflict and then it's like you're trying to slow and then it's like you're trying to slow and then it's like you're trying to slow this flywheel down and and turn it this flywheel down and and turn it this flywheel down and and turn it around. So you begin to around. So you begin to around. So you begin to feel the positive momentum again. And feel the positive momentum again. And feel the positive momentum again. And that took three arguably two and a half that took three arguably two and a half that took three arguably two and a half to three years. to three years. to three years. When you feel the air coming out of the When you feel the air coming out of the When you feel the air coming out of the balloon, what are some pivots or moves balloon, what are some pivots or moves balloon, what are some pivots or moves that are helpful? Like when you that are helpful? Like when you that are helpful? Like when you experience that at Grainger, experience that at Grainger, experience that at Grainger, what what did you start to do? I think pulling together the team I think pulling together the team and I would I I'd say first like making and I would I I'd say first like making and I would I I'd say first like making sure that you have the right people at sure that you have the right people at sure that you have the right people at the table. And I'm thinking a lead team the table. And I'm thinking a lead team the table. And I'm thinking a lead team right now in an organization. right now in an organization. right now in an organization. Do we still Do we still believe we have Do we still Do we still believe we have Do we still Do we still believe we have the right people at the table? the right people at the table? the right people at the table? Are these the people that can help us Are these the people that can help us Are these the people that can help us Can Can together Can the five or seven Can Can together Can the five or seven Can Can together Can the five or seven of us pull this thing out? Um of us pull this thing out? Um of us pull this thing out? Um So taking some time to figure that out.

So taking some time to figure that out. So taking some time to figure that out. And I think I think actually And I think I think actually And I think I think actually having an outside voice in that is having an outside voice in that is having an outside voice in that is something you just can't see it something you just can't see it something you just can't see it yourself. Um we called in a guy named yourself. Um we called in a guy named yourself. Um we called in a guy named Doug Slaybaugh at the time and Doug Slaybaugh at the time and Doug Slaybaugh at the time and he could see stuff we couldn't see. he could see stuff we couldn't see. he could see stuff we couldn't see. Cuz he you know, he didn't have the Cuz he you know, he didn't have the Cuz he you know, he didn't have the emotion connected to it. Um And so he emotion connected to it. Um And so he emotion connected to it. Um And so he could just come in and kind of diagnose could just come in and kind of diagnose could just come in and kind of diagnose some stuff, help us figure out where some stuff, help us figure out where some stuff, help us figure out where we're missing you know, you kind of you we're missing you know, you kind of you we're missing you know, you kind of you you end up missing each other in you end up missing each other in you end up missing each other in conversations and he could help us conversations and he could help us conversations and he could help us figure that out. figure that out. figure that out. Um and help us then like Um and help us then like Um and help us then like lay down a path to where we're going. lay down a path to where we're going. lay down a path to where we're going. Like for us it's like, "Okay, Like for us it's like, "Okay, Like for us it's like, "Okay, you we we tend to think like if we just you we we tend to think like if we just you we we tend to think like if we just keep doing what we were doing 5, 10, 15 keep doing what we were doing 5, 10, 15 keep doing what we were doing 5, 10, 15 years ago, it's going to start working years ago, it's going to start working years ago, it's going to start working again." again." again." Not realizing we've woken up and it's a Not realizing we've woken up and it's a Not realizing we've woken up and it's a brand new world and that stuff's not brand new world and that stuff's not brand new world and that stuff's not going to work. We got to figure it out going to work. We got to figure it out going to work. We got to figure it out together. And having someone from the together. And having someone from the together. And having someone from the outside can is super helpful with that. outside can is super helpful with that. outside can is super helpful with that. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um What do we call healthy in the church What do we call healthy in the church that you think is unhealthy? I'd love that you think is unhealthy? I'd love that you think is unhealthy? I'd love your broad thoughts your broad thoughts your broad thoughts on that. Like there are there practices on that. Like there are there practices on that. Like there are there practices that kind of pass for normal today. Are that kind of pass for normal today. Are that kind of pass for normal today. Are there any that you notice in that there any that you notice in that there any that you notice in that category that we would say, "Hey man, category that we would say, "Hey man, category that we would say, "Hey man, this is awesome." But it's not.

I think I think the the frenetic the the frenetic the the frenetic drivenness of an unhealthy leader drivenness of an unhealthy leader drivenness of an unhealthy leader whose charisma and personality is whose charisma and personality is whose charisma and personality is growing the church. growing the church. growing the church. So it appears to be healthy. So it appears to be healthy. So it appears to be healthy. But it's driven it's being driven from But it's driven it's being driven from But it's driven it's being driven from an unhealthy leader and it's an unhealthy leader and it's an unhealthy leader and it's potentially doesn't have to be but potentially doesn't have to be but potentially doesn't have to be but potentially creating some toxicity potentially creating some toxicity potentially creating some toxicity among the staff and in the church as among the staff and in the church as among the staff and in the church as well. well. well. Where you're Where you're Where you're um um um you're you're measuring you're you're measuring you're you're measuring growth growth growth without health instead of healthy without health instead of healthy without health instead of healthy growth. growth. growth. Um obviously there's no one that's Um obviously there's no one that's Um obviously there's no one that's against growth. against growth. against growth. But But But um um um but there's a lot of us that by but there's a lot of us that by but there's a lot of us that by practice, by observation, we're against practice, by observation, we're against practice, by observation, we're against health. health. health. Because we're not Because we're not Because we're not concerned about either the health of our concerned about either the health of our concerned about either the health of our people who are just, you know, going people who are just, you know, going people who are just, you know, going from one activity to the next with from one activity to the next with from one activity to the next with possibly not actually um being formed possibly not actually um being formed possibly not actually um being formed spiritually spiritually spiritually or the health of our staff um or the health of our staff um or the health of our staff um who are who are who are having to focus so much on the ministry having to focus so much on the ministry having to focus so much on the ministry that they're neglecting marriage, that they're neglecting marriage, that they're neglecting marriage, family, uh other healthy relationships.

family, uh other healthy relationships. family, uh other healthy relationships. How do you know a leader is unhealthy? I think I think there's probably several things on that. there's probably several things on that. there's probably several things on that. The um what first comes to mind would be The um what first comes to mind would be The um what first comes to mind would be a leader who doesn't listen a leader who doesn't listen a leader who doesn't listen to counsel or to to counsel or to to counsel or to I I'll just leave it at it doesn't I I'll just leave it at it doesn't I I'll just leave it at it doesn't listen, period. listen, period. listen, period. Um Um Um So, you know, the whole thing of speak So, you know, the whole thing of speak So, you know, the whole thing of speak truth to power, which is really really truth to power, which is really really truth to power, which is really really really hard for those that aren't in really hard for those that aren't in really hard for those that aren't in power. Um it's hard to speak up speak um power. Um it's hard to speak up speak um power. Um it's hard to speak up speak um up the org chart to power. up the org chart to power. up the org chart to power. Um I've heard Andy Stanley say Um I've heard Andy Stanley say Um I've heard Andy Stanley say information flows downhill. Um so the information flows downhill. Um so the information flows downhill. Um so the the the CEO, the senior pastor, they're the the CEO, the senior pastor, they're the the CEO, the senior pastor, they're going to be the last ones to hear the going to be the last ones to hear the going to be the last ones to hear the truth. truth. truth. A lot of them like it that way. They A lot of them like it that way. They A lot of them like it that way. They don't really want the truth. don't really want the truth. don't really want the truth. Um Um Um And especially those that have been at And especially those that have been at And especially those that have been at it for a long time because they've taken it for a long time because they've taken it for a long time because they've taken some arrows and it and it didn't feel some arrows and it and it didn't feel some arrows and it and it didn't feel good. And so good. And so good. And so they'd kind of much rather not know. they'd kind of much rather not know. they'd kind of much rather not know. And because what they're doing in their And because what they're doing in their And because what they're doing in their minds might be you know, either is still minds might be you know, either is still minds might be you know, either is still working might still be working to how working might still be working to how working might still be working to how really define that.

really define that. really define that. So I think that's probably the first So I think that's probably the first So I think that's probably the first thing I think of uh unhealthy. I think thing I think of uh unhealthy. I think thing I think of uh unhealthy. I think you know, as you look at family, you know, as you look at family, you know, as you look at family, marriage, relationships, marriage, relationships, marriage, relationships, um self-discipline, um self-discipline, um self-discipline, all those things, I think that's that all those things, I think that's that all those things, I think that's that there's some signs there as well. there's some signs there as well. there's some signs there as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tim, anything else? Like 40 years of Tim, anything else? Like 40 years of Tim, anything else? Like 40 years of ministry, any other observations that ministry, any other observations that ministry, any other observations that you want to touch on before we wrap up? Someone asked me the other day cuz they Someone asked me the other day cuz they knew I was in this 40 lessons thing from knew I was in this 40 lessons thing from knew I was in this 40 lessons thing from 40 years of learning. They said, "Well, 40 years of learning. They said, "Well, 40 years of learning. They said, "Well, okay, just tell just tell me the top okay, just tell just tell me the top okay, just tell just tell me the top one. What's the one?" one. What's the one?" one. What's the one?" So they kind of they kind of forced me So they kind of they kind of forced me So they kind of they kind of forced me to it but I I didn't take me long to to it but I I didn't take me long to to it but I I didn't take me long to land there. land there. land there. Um Um Um And I think like probably the best And I think like probably the best And I think like probably the best learning for me and what helped me like learning for me and what helped me like learning for me and what helped me like pivot and posture my attitude and heart pivot and posture my attitude and heart pivot and posture my attitude and heart is deciding to believe the best is deciding to believe the best is deciding to believe the best about other people, about their about other people, about their about other people, about their intentions, their motives, intentions, their motives, intentions, their motives, their words.

their words. their words. I think I have learned that it is that I think I have learned that it is that I think I have learned that it is that is not natural. is not natural. is not natural. I think about it like when you're I think about it like when you're I think about it like when you're driving in traffic. Like if someone cuts driving in traffic. Like if someone cuts driving in traffic. Like if someone cuts me off, I'm super ticked off at them and me off, I'm super ticked off at them and me off, I'm super ticked off at them and I want to run them off the road. I want to run them off the road. I want to run them off the road. But if I run If I like I'm in a hurry But if I run If I like I'm in a hurry But if I run If I like I'm in a hurry cuz my wife said she needs me to come to cuz my wife said she needs me to come to cuz my wife said she needs me to come to the hospital and I cut someone off, I the hospital and I cut someone off, I the hospital and I cut someone off, I want them to be super want them to be super want them to be super gracious and understanding and believe gracious and understanding and believe gracious and understanding and believe the best in me. But more often than not, the best in me. But more often than not, the best in me. But more often than not, what's natural is we don't believe the what's natural is we don't believe the what's natural is we don't believe the best in others. We believe that they best in others. We believe that they best in others. We believe that they actually had an intention um to hurt us actually had an intention um to hurt us actually had an intention um to hurt us uh a motive to come across that way. uh a motive to come across that way. uh a motive to come across that way. They're actually being They're actually being They're actually being passive-aggressive with us. passive-aggressive with us. passive-aggressive with us. Um and I realize when you believe the Um and I realize when you believe the Um and I realize when you believe the best, it is going to bite you every now best, it is going to bite you every now best, it is going to bite you every now and then. You're going to get it wrong. and then. You're going to get it wrong. and then. You're going to get it wrong. You're totally going to get it wrong You're totally going to get it wrong You're totally going to get it wrong sometimes. But I I'd much rather get it sometimes. But I I'd much rather get it sometimes. But I I'd much rather get it wrong by believing the best than get it wrong by believing the best than get it wrong by believing the best than get it wrong by constantly just believing the wrong by constantly just believing the wrong by constantly just believing the worst in people's motives. worst in people's motives. worst in people's motives. And that's been something that's And that's been something that's And that's been something that's probably probably probably um um um a lifelong learning. I don't get it I a lifelong learning. I don't get it I a lifelong learning. I don't get it I don't get it right day to day, week to don't get it right day to day, week to don't get it right day to day, week to week. But it's something that's present week. But it's something that's present week. But it's something that's present in my mind and that I think, "Man, if we in my mind and that I think, "Man, if we in my mind and that I think, "Man, if we all just did that a little bit better, all just did that a little bit better, all just did that a little bit better, goodness, it would just be different."

goodness, it would just be different." goodness, it would just be different." But that means you can't get cynical. But that means you can't get cynical. But that means you can't get cynical. That's something our mutual friend Tony That's something our mutual friend Tony That's something our mutual friend Tony Morgan and I used to talk about, you Morgan and I used to talk about, you Morgan and I used to talk about, you know, because I remember a dinner with know, because I remember a dinner with know, because I remember a dinner with Tony one day and he's like, "You know, Tony one day and he's like, "You know, Tony one day and he's like, "You know, age and cynicism, they go together." And age and cynicism, they go together." And age and cynicism, they go together." And gosh, I miss Tony. But gosh, I miss Tony. But gosh, I miss Tony. But you know, how have you guarded against you know, how have you guarded against you know, how have you guarded against cynicism? I think that's it. Like it's it's like I think that's it. Like it's it's like trying to remind myself all the time to trying to remind myself all the time to trying to remind myself all the time to believe the best. believe the best. believe the best. To real To believe I don't have all the To real To believe I don't have all the To real To believe I don't have all the answers. I don't have all the answers. I don't have all the answers. I don't have all the information. I wasn't in the room when information. I wasn't in the room when information. I wasn't in the room when they made that decision. they made that decision. they made that decision. I'm not in that person's heart to know I'm not in that person's heart to know I'm not in that person's heart to know why they why they why they you know, even even if like my brain 98% you know, even even if like my brain 98% you know, even even if like my brain 98% believes believes believes that um that they had ill intent. that um that they had ill intent. that um that they had ill intent. It's like I'm going to like my heart's It's like I'm going to like my heart's It's like I'm going to like my heart's going to say like I like in every in in going to say like I like in every in in going to say like I like in every in in how I act at my best anyway, I'm going how I act at my best anyway, I'm going how I act at my best anyway, I'm going to try to like communicate that I'm to try to like communicate that I'm to try to like communicate that I'm believing the best. So I'm saying like, believing the best. So I'm saying like, believing the best. So I'm saying like, "Tell me more about that. Can you Can "Tell me more about that. Can you Can "Tell me more about that. Can you Can you give me Give me your Help me see you give me Give me your Help me see you give me Give me your Help me see that through your lens. Help me see that that through your lens. Help me see that that through your lens. Help me see that through your context."

through your context." through your context." Um Um Um I I the other way I would say like this I I the other way I would say like this I I the other way I would say like this might be a little bit of a rabbit trail might be a little bit of a rabbit trail might be a little bit of a rabbit trail but to keep from getting cynical but to keep from getting cynical but to keep from getting cynical is just get out of your echo chamber. is just get out of your echo chamber. is just get out of your echo chamber. Whatever that is, you know, Whatever that is, you know, Whatever that is, you know, politics comes to mind just in the you politics comes to mind just in the you politics comes to mind just in the you know, where you're [clears throat] just know, where you're [clears throat] just know, where you're [clears throat] just in the echo chamber where you're just in the echo chamber where you're just in the echo chamber where you're just listening to people that say exactly listening to people that say exactly listening to people that say exactly what you think and tell you why the what you think and tell you why the what you think and tell you why the other people are evil and they hate they other people are evil and they hate they other people are evil and they hate they hate America or hate their country or hate America or hate their country or hate America or hate their country or whatever. whatever. whatever. And we get in these echo chambers and we And we get in these echo chambers and we And we get in these echo chambers and we get super cynical about the world. Uh we get super cynical about the world. Uh we get super cynical about the world. Uh we get depressed. We're negative because get depressed. We're negative because get depressed. We're negative because we're just hearing the same stuff over we're just hearing the same stuff over we're just hearing the same stuff over and over and over again. and over and over again. and over and over again. Um I don't think your head should be in Um I don't think your head should be in Um I don't think your head should be in the sand but I think if we get out of the sand but I think if we get out of the sand but I think if we get out of our echo chambers and begin to believe our echo chambers and begin to believe our echo chambers and begin to believe the best the best the best and want to learn. Like have a learner's and want to learn. Like have a learner's and want to learn. Like have a learner's like I I want to know why you landed like I I want to know why you landed like I I want to know why you landed there. I talked to one of my kids there. I talked to one of my kids there. I talked to one of my kids recently and they landed somewhere recently and they landed somewhere recently and they landed somewhere completely different like night and day completely different like night and day completely different like night and day from what they were raised in for 18 from what they were raised in for 18 from what they were raised in for 18 years. And I was like years. And I was like years. And I was like it was everything with them I just say, it was everything with them I just say, it was everything with them I just say, "Help me help me understand. How did you "Help me help me understand. How did you "Help me help me understand. How did you land there? What are your thoughts land there? What are your thoughts land there? What are your thoughts around that? You know, what informed you around that? You know, what informed you around that? You know, what informed you your values and and thinking around your values and and thinking around your values and and thinking around that?" that?" that?" Yeah. Well, Tim, you've produced a lot Yeah. Well, Tim, you've produced a lot Yeah. Well, Tim, you've produced a lot of resources over the years. Um of resources over the years. Um of resources over the years. Um what what would you like to direct what what would you like to direct what what would you like to direct people to? Like, where can they find you people to? Like, where can they find you people to? Like, where can they find you online these days?

online these days? online these days? We'll link to, if it's okay with you, We'll link to, if it's okay with you, We'll link to, if it's okay with you, the 40 lessons in 40 years. That'd be the 40 lessons in 40 years. That'd be the 40 lessons in 40 years. That'd be cool. cool. cool. That'd be great. That'd be great. That'd be great. >> be on your site where >> be on your site where >> be on your site where >> to Yeah, if they go to leadingspark.com >> to Yeah, if they go to leadingspark.com >> to Yeah, if they go to leadingspark.com /carey, /carey, /carey, um we'll put all the resources there. um we'll put all the resources there. um we'll put all the resources there. There will have a link to There will have a link to There will have a link to uh the ebook. We'll have a link to the uh the ebook. We'll have a link to the uh the ebook. We'll have a link to the podcast we're doing on that topic right podcast we're doing on that topic right podcast we're doing on that topic right now. We'll have a link to a couple We now. We'll have a link to a couple We now. We'll have a link to a couple We talked earlier about kind of getting talked earlier about kind of getting talked earlier about kind of getting with some people around a fire pit. with some people around a fire pit. with some people around a fire pit. We'll link to some gatherings we're We'll link to some gatherings we're We'll link to some gatherings we're doing for both executive pastors and doing for both executive pastors and doing for both executive pastors and then separately for lead pastors then separately for lead pastors then separately for lead pastors that are coming up this winter. So, that are coming up this winter. So, that are coming up this winter. So, uh I'd say leadingspark.com/carey, uh I'd say leadingspark.com/carey, uh I'd say leadingspark.com/carey, they'll find some good resources there. they'll find some good resources there. they'll find some good resources there. Tim, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Tim, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Tim, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate the time.