Required Listening: Gordon MacDonald's Advice Still Stops Leaders Cold

Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we start doing Podcast. Hey, today we start doing Podcast. Hey, today we start doing something a little bit different. It's something a little bit different. It's something a little bit different. It's an introduction of a mini-series, three an introduction of a mini-series, three an introduction of a mini-series, three episodes I'm calling required listening. episodes I'm calling required listening. episodes I'm calling required listening. So, we're 800 some odd episodes into So, we're 800 some odd episodes into So, we're 800 some odd episodes into this podcast and some of you've been this podcast and some of you've been this podcast and some of you've been with us from the very beginning and the with us from the very beginning and the with us from the very beginning and the good news is like with 800 interviews, good news is like with 800 interviews, good news is like with 800 interviews, there's some real gems there. A lot of there's some real gems there. A lot of there's some real gems there. A lot of you have joined us obviously somewhere you have joined us obviously somewhere you have joined us obviously somewhere [music] along the journey or even [music] along the journey or even [music] along the journey or even recently. So, for the next three weeks, recently. So, for the next three weeks, recently. So, for the next three weeks, I'm going to go into the archives. I'm I'm going to go into the archives. I'm I'm going to go into the archives. I'm going to pull some listener favorites, going to pull some listener favorites, going to pull some listener favorites, some of my personal favorites and in some of my personal favorites and in some of my personal favorites and in these next three episodes, we're going these next three episodes, we're going these next three episodes, we're going to look at and talk to [music] Gordon to look at and talk to [music] Gordon to look at and talk to [music] Gordon MacDonald and Eugene Peterson. These are MacDonald and Eugene Peterson. These are MacDonald and Eugene Peterson. These are interviews I did a number of years ago interviews I did a number of years ago interviews I did a number of years ago and we're going to spend this week on and we're going to spend this week on and we're going to spend this week on Gordon MacDonald and then I'm going to Gordon MacDonald and then I'm going to Gordon MacDonald and then I'm going to talk to Eugene Peterson, pull an episode talk to Eugene Peterson, pull an episode talk to Eugene Peterson, pull an episode out of the archive and then his son and out of the archive and then his son and out of the archive and then his son and his biographer, one of his sons and his his biographer, one of his sons and his his biographer, one of his sons and his biographer's for the third episode biographer's for the third episode biographer's for the third episode because I think we live in an age where because I think we live in an age where because I think we live in an age where everybody's really concerned about everybody's really concerned about everybody's really concerned about people's character. I look at Gordon people's character. I look at Gordon people's character. I look at Gordon MacDonald, I look at Eugene Peterson.

MacDonald, I look at Eugene Peterson. MacDonald, I look at Eugene Peterson. These are two leaders who have finished These are two leaders who have finished These are two leaders who have finished and are finishing well. Gordon is still and are finishing well. Gordon is still and are finishing well. Gordon is still with us. So, today we're going to open with us. So, today we're going to open with us. So, today we're going to open that up with Gordon MacDonald talking that up with Gordon MacDonald talking that up with Gordon MacDonald talking about the view from 80. I interviewed about the view from 80. I interviewed about the view from 80. I interviewed him shortly after he celebrated his 80th him shortly after he celebrated his 80th him shortly after he celebrated his 80th birthday. We're going to talk about 15 birthday. We're going to talk about 15 birthday. We're going to talk about 15 lessons on what really matters in life lessons on what really matters in life lessons on what really matters in life and leadership. I think you're really and leadership. I think you're really and leadership. I think you're really going to enjoy this. So, let's start going to enjoy this. So, let's start going to enjoy this. So, let's start with Gordon MacDonald. Gordon has been a with Gordon MacDonald. Gordon has been a with Gordon MacDonald. Gordon has been a pastor and author for more than 50 pastor and author for more than 50 pastor and author for more than 50 years. He served as chancellor at Denver years. He served as chancellor at Denver years. He served as chancellor at Denver Seminary and editor-at-large for Seminary and editor-at-large for Seminary and editor-at-large for Leadership Journal as a speaker at Leadership Journal as a speaker at Leadership Journal as a speaker at leadership conferences around the world. leadership conferences around the world. leadership conferences around the world. His books, which include Building Below His books, which include Building Below His books, which include Building Below the Waterline, Who Stole My Church, the Waterline, Who Stole My Church, the Waterline, Who Stole My Church, Ordering Your Private World and my Ordering Your Private World and my Ordering Your Private World and my personal favorite, Rebuilding Your personal favorite, Rebuilding Your personal favorite, Rebuilding Your Private World, Private World, Private World, uh incredible books. So, uh incredible books. So, uh incredible books. So, the first episode of our required the first episode of our required the first episode of our required listening series, my conversation with listening series, my conversation with listening series, my conversation with Gordon MacDonald. Gordon MacDonald. Gordon MacDonald. >> Okay, number one, a view from 80. >> Okay, number one, a view from 80. >> Okay, number one, a view from 80. Put the most significant people in your Put the most significant people in your Put the most significant people in your life, your spouse, your family, close life, your spouse, your family, close life, your spouse, your family, close friends and mentors, put them into the friends and mentors, put them into the friends and mentors, put them into the calendar first.

calendar first. calendar first. The second, The second, The second, never ever stop growing. never ever stop growing. never ever stop growing. Stay open to fresh ways and ideas that Stay open to fresh ways and ideas that Stay open to fresh ways and ideas that sustain your physical and mental health, sustain your physical and mental health, sustain your physical and mental health, that sharpen your working skills, that sharpen your working skills, that sharpen your working skills, that increase your knowledge, that increase your knowledge, that increase your knowledge, and of course enrich your wisdom and and of course enrich your wisdom and and of course enrich your wisdom and spiritual life. spiritual life. spiritual life. Number three, Number three, Number three, be more a priest and less a preacher to be more a priest and less a preacher to be more a priest and less a preacher to people. people. people. Bless people with the powers of hope and Bless people with the powers of hope and Bless people with the powers of hope and grace and courage and love. grace and courage and love. grace and courage and love. Number four, Number four, Number four, always keep in mind that the time will always keep in mind that the time will always keep in mind that the time will come when you will have to relinquish come when you will have to relinquish come when you will have to relinquish your titles, your privileges, your titles, your privileges, your titles, your privileges, and slip into obscurity. and slip into obscurity. and slip into obscurity. Ultimately, the obscurity of death. Ultimately, the obscurity of death. Ultimately, the obscurity of death. Number five, Number five, Number five, prepare yourself for those occasions prepare yourself for those occasions prepare yourself for those occasions when you, like most people, will suffer, when you, like most people, will suffer, when you, like most people, will suffer, fail, fail, fail, fall into doubt, face conflict, fall into doubt, face conflict, fall into doubt, face conflict, experience loss.

experience loss. experience loss. Number six, Number six, Number six, be trustworthy and dependable, be trustworthy and dependable, be trustworthy and dependable, a person who keeps his or her word. a person who keeps his or her word. a person who keeps his or her word. Don't make promises you can't keep. Don't make promises you can't keep. Don't make promises you can't keep. Number seven, Number seven, Number seven, be a spiritual father or mother to be a spiritual father or mother to be a spiritual father or mother to teachable people teachable people teachable people who may someday inherit your who may someday inherit your who may someday inherit your responsibilities. Number eight, Number eight, live modestly. live modestly. live modestly. Stay free of debt, be generous, Stay free of debt, be generous, Stay free of debt, be generous, develop a financial strategy for your develop a financial strategy for your develop a financial strategy for your future. future. future. Be wary of those who use money to buy Be wary of those who use money to buy Be wary of those who use money to buy your favor. Number nine, Number nine, expect to reorganize your inner life expect to reorganize your inner life expect to reorganize your inner life about every 7 to 10 years. Number 10, Number 10, receive compliments given to you or receive compliments given to you or receive compliments given to you or criticism or counsel with humility and criticism or counsel with humility and criticism or counsel with humility and appreciation. appreciation. appreciation. Avoid whining, complaining, self-pity.

Avoid whining, complaining, self-pity. Avoid whining, complaining, self-pity. Assume that there is at least a grain of Assume that there is at least a grain of Assume that there is at least a grain of truth in the things the critics say truth in the things the critics say truth in the things the critics say about you and your work. about you and your work. about you and your work. Number 11, Number 11, Number 11, stay alert for the evils and temptations stay alert for the evils and temptations stay alert for the evils and temptations embedded in institutional life. embedded in institutional life. embedded in institutional life. Number 12, Number 12, Number 12, be quick to say with sincerity, be quick to say with sincerity, be quick to say with sincerity, "Thank you." "Thank you." "Thank you." "Well done." "Well done." "Well done." "I'm sorry." "I'm sorry." "I'm sorry." "I forgive you." "I forgive you." "I forgive you." or "How can I help?" Number 13, Number 13, always maintain a relationship with one always maintain a relationship with one always maintain a relationship with one or two mentors who can aid you in or two mentors who can aid you in or two mentors who can aid you in hearing God's voice. hearing God's voice. hearing God's voice. Number 14, Number 14, Number 14, master the art of asking the kind of master the art of asking the kind of master the art of asking the kind of penetrating questions that opens up penetrating questions that opens up penetrating questions that opens up someone's heart. someone's heart. someone's heart. And finally, number 15, And finally, number 15, And finally, number 15, retreat to the cross regularly. retreat to the cross regularly. retreat to the cross regularly. Express your appreciations.

Express your appreciations. Express your appreciations. Name your sins. Name your sins. Name your sins. Pray for the world. Pray for the world. Pray for the world. Listen for God's calls to do things that Listen for God's calls to do things that Listen for God's calls to do things that are bigger than you. are bigger than you. are bigger than you. >> Gordon, what a joy it is to be with you >> Gordon, what a joy it is to be with you >> Gordon, what a joy it is to be with you today. Thanks so much for making the today. Thanks so much for making the today. Thanks so much for making the time. time. time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. I was sharing [snorts] with you >> Yeah. I was sharing [snorts] with you >> Yeah. I was sharing [snorts] with you before we got started, we've been a before we got started, we've been a before we got started, we've been a couple years setting this interview up, couple years setting this interview up, couple years setting this interview up, so I'm really thankful that you made the so I'm really thankful that you made the so I'm really thankful that you made the time, but my time with you, when I first time, but my time with you, when I first time, but my time with you, when I first heard of you, I was a law student in heard of you, I was a law student in heard of you, I was a law student in Toronto and uh young Christian in my Toronto and uh young Christian in my Toronto and uh young Christian in my early 20s and Ordering Your Private early 20s and Ordering Your Private early 20s and Ordering Your Private World came out. And it was a book that World came out. And it was a book that World came out. And it was a book that >> You're the one who read it. >> You're the one who read it. >> You're the one who read it. >> I'm the one who read it. That's >> I'm the one who read it. That's >> I'm the one who read it. That's [laughter] it. I'm the guy back in the [laughter] it. I'm the guy back in the [laughter] it. I'm the guy back in the day. That's me. day. That's me. day. That's me. Um, Um, Um, and and I got to tell you, it was one of and and I got to tell you, it was one of and and I got to tell you, it was one of those books that really defined my 20s those books that really defined my 20s those books that really defined my 20s and uh, one that's still on my bookshelf and uh, one that's still on my bookshelf and uh, one that's still on my bookshelf and uh, it was something that really I and uh, it was something that really I and uh, it was something that really I think it was the first realization I had think it was the first realization I had think it was the first realization I had that the interior life was actually a that the interior life was actually a that the interior life was actually a life life life you needed to pay attention to. you needed to pay attention to. you needed to pay attention to. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, in addition [clears throat] to your >> Um, in addition [clears throat] to your >> Um, in addition [clears throat] to your order and that. But I I want to I want order and that. But I I want to I want order and that. But I I want to I want to start back even further than that.

to start back even further than that. to start back even further than that. So, you've had uh, what year did you So, you've had uh, what year did you So, you've had uh, what year did you start ministry? What uh, start ministry? What uh, start ministry? What uh, >> I started 1961 and the reason I can be >> I started 1961 and the reason I can be >> I started 1961 and the reason I can be so explicit about that is so explicit about that is so explicit about that is my formal ministry began the day my wife my formal ministry began the day my wife my formal ministry began the day my wife Gail and I returned from our honeymoon. Gail and I returned from our honeymoon. Gail and I returned from our honeymoon. So, if I remember my wedding So, if I remember my wedding So, if I remember my wedding anniversary, I remember my ministry anniversary, I remember my ministry anniversary, I remember my ministry anniversary and vice versa. anniversary and vice versa. anniversary and vice versa. >> Wow, so that was that's like six decades >> Wow, so that was that's like six decades >> Wow, so that was that's like six decades of leadership in ministry. of leadership in ministry. of leadership in ministry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I want to do a retrospective. Like over >> I want to do a retrospective. Like over >> I want to do a retrospective. Like over your lifetime, what have you seen change your lifetime, what have you seen change your lifetime, what have you seen change in the culture, in the church, in in the culture, in the church, in in the culture, in the church, in leadership? Uh, what have been some of leadership? Uh, what have been some of leadership? Uh, what have been some of the most significant shifts that that the most significant shifts that that the most significant shifts that that you would say you've seen? you would say you've seen? you would say you've seen? >> That's probably a 3-hour conversation. >> That's probably a 3-hour conversation. >> That's probably a 3-hour conversation. >> We got the day. >> We got the day. >> We got the day. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I was born at the beginning of World War >> I was born at the beginning of World War >> I was born at the beginning of World War II, 1939. II, 1939. II, 1939. And so, I come out of a generation And so, I come out of a generation And so, I come out of a generation that's marked by the depression that's marked by the depression that's marked by the depression uh, a few years earlier and the war. uh, a few years earlier and the war. uh, a few years earlier and the war. And in my childhood, those the the way And in my childhood, those the the way And in my childhood, those the the way of thinking that came out of that was of thinking that came out of that was of thinking that came out of that was deeply impressive upon me.

deeply impressive upon me. deeply impressive upon me. My father was a pastor. He was a Baptist My father was a pastor. He was a Baptist My father was a pastor. He was a Baptist minister. He was part of the old minister. He was part of the old minister. He was part of the old fundamentalist network that was heavy fundamentalist network that was heavy fundamentalist network that was heavy into doctrine and what they call into doctrine and what they call into doctrine and what they call separatism. separatism. separatism. I really admired my father and uh, I I really admired my father and uh, I I really admired my father and uh, I wanted to be like him, wanted to be like him, wanted to be like him, but we hardly ever knew each other. He but we hardly ever knew each other. He but we hardly ever knew each other. He He didn't know how to connect with He didn't know how to connect with He didn't know how to connect with children. He He admitted that to me many children. He He admitted that to me many children. He He admitted that to me many years later. years later. years later. And my picture of my father when I'm a And my picture of my father when I'm a And my picture of my father when I'm a boy boy boy is that my father is walking away from is that my father is walking away from is that my father is walking away from our home. our home. our home. His back turned toward me and he never His back turned toward me and he never His back turned toward me and he never looks around. And I see him going toward looks around. And I see him going toward looks around. And I see him going toward the church and I never see his face. the church and I never see his face. the church and I never see his face. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And to this day, whenever I think about >> And to this day, whenever I think about >> And to this day, whenever I think about my father who's been gone now for almost my father who's been gone now for almost my father who's been gone now for almost 10 years. 10 years. 10 years. But that's the picture I come up with But that's the picture I come up with But that's the picture I come up with that we're we're just separating. So I that we're we're just separating. So I that we're we're just separating. So I watched my father from a distance. watched my father from a distance. watched my father from a distance. And I admired the way he preached, the And I admired the way he preached, the And I admired the way he preached, the way people responded to him. He He way people responded to him. He He way people responded to him. He He really was very good at whatever he did really was very good at whatever he did really was very good at whatever he did in those years.

in those years. in those years. Um and so I grew up with that idea that Um and so I grew up with that idea that Um and so I grew up with that idea that someday I'm going to probably preach the someday I'm going to probably preach the someday I'm going to probably preach the Bible like he did. Bible like he did. Bible like he did. Uh but then we we came through a lot of Uh but then we we came through a lot of Uh but then we we came through a lot of changes uh as I moved out of my changes uh as I moved out of my changes uh as I moved out of my childhood. childhood. childhood. And when you talk about cultural changes And when you talk about cultural changes And when you talk about cultural changes um my conscious growing up is in the um my conscious growing up is in the um my conscious growing up is in the '50s and early '60s. '50s and early '60s. '50s and early '60s. Where you were um dealing with a with a Where you were um dealing with a with a Where you were um dealing with a with a world which is beginning to really come world which is beginning to really come world which is beginning to really come apart at the seams. apart at the seams. apart at the seams. I'm deeply marked in those days by the I'm deeply marked in those days by the I'm deeply marked in those days by the Cold War. Cold War. Cold War. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the preaching in the church in those >> And the preaching in the church in those >> And the preaching in the church in those days was on eschatology and days was on eschatology and days was on eschatology and anti-communism. anti-communism. anti-communism. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it was done in a very >> And it was done in a very >> And it was done in a very fearful way. fearful way. fearful way. So that even now, all these years later, So that even now, all these years later, So that even now, all these years later, I remember going to bed night after I remember going to bed night after I remember going to bed night after night crying myself to sleep night crying myself to sleep night crying myself to sleep because we thought the communists were because we thought the communists were because we thought the communists were going to take over at any moment. That going to take over at any moment. That going to take over at any moment. That was That was the message you got in the was That was the message you got in the was That was the message you got in the church. church. church. It was also a time when as a as a boy It was also a time when as a as a boy It was also a time when as a as a boy when I went to public school all week when I went to public school all week when I went to public school all week long, I heard the normal litany of long, I heard the normal litany of long, I heard the normal litany of teaching on evolution, on science, all teaching on evolution, on science, all teaching on evolution, on science, all of those things which we all heard. Then of those things which we all heard. Then of those things which we all heard. Then you'd go to the weekend and now you you'd go to the weekend and now you you'd go to the weekend and now you heard the scientists know nothing.

heard the scientists know nothing. heard the scientists know nothing. They're antichrist. They're giving you They're antichrist. They're giving you They're antichrist. They're giving you false false false so that you're jumping back and forth so that you're jumping back and forth so that you're jumping back and forth like a ping pong ball every week. like a ping pong ball every week. like a ping pong ball every week. And it really And it really And it really did a job on a lot of us in my did a job on a lot of us in my did a job on a lot of us in my generation. It it we struggled with our generation. It it we struggled with our generation. It it we struggled with our ability to think because there were so ability to think because there were so ability to think because there were so many boundary lines. We were we were cut many boundary lines. We were we were cut many boundary lines. We were we were cut off from the popular culture. You know, off from the popular culture. You know, off from the popular culture. You know, you can't go to movies you can't go to movies you can't go to movies and you can't go to parties that are and you can't go to parties that are and you can't go to parties that are held by non-Christian people and then a held by non-Christian people and then a held by non-Christian people and then a few years later you can't date a girl few years later you can't date a girl few years later you can't date a girl who's not a Christian. who's not a Christian. who's not a Christian. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And so you're you're always living a >> And so you're you're always living a >> And so you're you're always living a life of exclusion. life of exclusion. life of exclusion. In the meantime we're having to deal In the meantime we're having to deal In the meantime we're having to deal with the death of President Kennedy, with the death of President Kennedy, with the death of President Kennedy, Martin Luther King, um the rise in Martin Luther King, um the rise in Martin Luther King, um the rise in all of these secular issues which are all of these secular issues which are all of these secular issues which are coming to us in the 70s, 60s and 70s. coming to us in the 70s, 60s and 70s. coming to us in the 70s, 60s and 70s. So it was a hard time to grow up because So it was a hard time to grow up because So it was a hard time to grow up because the world was dramatically um the world was dramatically um the world was dramatically um reorienting itself to a new kind of reorienting itself to a new kind of reorienting itself to a new kind of secular orientation secular orientation secular orientation which um in my childhood had I'd never which um in my childhood had I'd never which um in my childhood had I'd never heard.

heard. heard. And and and then a final comment I'd And and and then a final comment I'd And and and then a final comment I'd make and I think about this often. make and I think about this often. make and I think about this often. I I went to a state university with an I I went to a state university with an I I went to a state university with an athletic scholarship. athletic scholarship. athletic scholarship. And you would think that your generation And you would think that your generation And you would think that your generation or or the parental generation would be or or the parental generation would be or or the parental generation would be thrilled that this had been an thrilled that this had been an thrilled that this had been an achievement. achievement. achievement. But I can remember those days everybody But I can remember those days everybody But I can remember those days everybody in our church coming up to me saying, in our church coming up to me saying, in our church coming up to me saying, "Certainly you're not going to go to the "Certainly you're not going to go to the "Certainly you're not going to go to the university. You'll lose your faith. university. You'll lose your faith. university. You'll lose your faith. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> will Those professors will turn you into >> will Those professors will turn you into >> will Those professors will turn you into an atheist in a year." an atheist in a year." an atheist in a year." Which is kind of interesting because Which is kind of interesting because Which is kind of interesting because these were the same people who believed these were the same people who believed these were the same people who believed in the eternal security of the believer in the eternal security of the believer in the eternal security of the believer >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> and and yet they've got you, you know, >> and and yet they've got you, you know, >> and and yet they've got you, you know, in in in Satan's grasp within a year. in in in Satan's grasp within a year. in in in Satan's grasp within a year. So I spent the first two or three years So I spent the first two or three years So I spent the first two or three years of university life on the defense, of university life on the defense, of university life on the defense, waiting for someone to take away my waiting for someone to take away my waiting for someone to take away my faith. And they never did. They did They faith. And they never did. They did They faith. And they never did. They did They didn't care. didn't care. didn't care. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And And so, I I was well along in my >> And And so, I I was well along in my >> And And so, I I was well along in my post high school education post high school education post high school education before I really discovered my mind.

before I really discovered my mind. before I really discovered my mind. And in one sense, I feel like my whole And in one sense, I feel like my whole And in one sense, I feel like my whole life I've been playing life I've been playing life I've been playing catch-up ball uh catch-up ball uh catch-up ball uh in intellectually and in intellectually and in intellectually and uh people tell me I don't have to worry uh people tell me I don't have to worry uh people tell me I don't have to worry about that, but I still do worry about about that, but I still do worry about about that, but I still do worry about it and um keep stretching myself to make it and um keep stretching myself to make it and um keep stretching myself to make up for what I I think was lost time. up for what I I think was lost time. up for what I I think was lost time. >> Why do you think you kept your faith in >> Why do you think you kept your faith in >> Why do you think you kept your faith in the midst of that? Because people are the midst of that? Because people are the midst of that? Because people are concerned about so many It's funny, the concerned about so many It's funny, the concerned about so many It's funny, the more things change, the more things stay more things change, the more things stay more things change, the more things stay the same. I mean, people are worried the same. I mean, people are worried the same. I mean, people are worried about their kids going to about their kids going to about their kids going to uh secular schools today, etc. And I'm uh secular schools today, etc. And I'm uh secular schools today, etc. And I'm not sure that we're winning the not sure that we're winning the not sure that we're winning the intellectual debate uh intellectual debate uh intellectual debate uh very well with with uh with Christianity very well with with uh with Christianity very well with with uh with Christianity these days. But, when you look back on these days. But, when you look back on these days. But, when you look back on it now, can you can you pinpoint like do it now, can you can you pinpoint like do it now, can you can you pinpoint like do you know why you didn't lose your faith? you know why you didn't lose your faith? you know why you didn't lose your faith? >> Well, it has a lot to do with my >> Well, it has a lot to do with my >> Well, it has a lot to do with my mentors. mentors. mentors. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um there was a woman in my world when I was there was a woman in my world when I was there was a woman in my world when I was three, four, five, six years of age three, four, five, six years of age three, four, five, six years of age who was an incredible Bible storyteller.

who was an incredible Bible storyteller. who was an incredible Bible storyteller. And every week she would have a group of And every week she would have a group of And every week she would have a group of us children, week after week after week, us children, week after week after week, us children, week after week after week, into her home. into her home. into her home. And we would sit in the circle in her And we would sit in the circle in her And we would sit in the circle in her living room. living room. living room. And she would tell us the stories of the And she would tell us the stories of the And she would tell us the stories of the Bible. Bible. Bible. And her ability to tell a story put you And her ability to tell a story put you And her ability to tell a story put you right in the time and space of that right in the time and space of that right in the time and space of that story. I mean, I can smell the smoke at story. I mean, I can smell the smoke at story. I mean, I can smell the smoke at Moses's bush burning bush, and I can Moses's bush burning bush, and I can Moses's bush burning bush, and I can imagine the stink of the whale that imagine the stink of the whale that imagine the stink of the whale that Jonah was in. Jonah was in. Jonah was in. Um she made those stories come so alive. Um she made those stories come so alive. Um she made those stories come so alive. And so, I often say, even to this day, And so, I often say, even to this day, And so, I often say, even to this day, my faith is a story-based faith. Hm. my faith is a story-based faith. Hm. my faith is a story-based faith. Hm. Many people, their faith is a a Many people, their faith is a a Many people, their faith is a a doctrinal faith or a principled faith. doctrinal faith or a principled faith. doctrinal faith or a principled faith. Mine is I am very much alive to this day Mine is I am very much alive to this day Mine is I am very much alive to this day with the men and women of both with the men and women of both with the men and women of both Testaments, and then I build my Testaments, and then I build my Testaments, and then I build my doctrinal faith out from there. So, it's doctrinal faith out from there. So, it's doctrinal faith out from there. So, it's it's a different way than other people it's a different way than other people it's a different way than other people did it. did it. did it. I think the stories I think the stories I think the stories kept me for a long time. kept me for a long time. kept me for a long time. Then I And And she was the first of of Then I And And she was the first of of Then I And And she was the first of of I've listed them, nine different people I've listed them, nine different people I've listed them, nine different people who walked into my life at a certain who walked into my life at a certain who walked into my life at a certain point point point with a way of approaching me that met with a way of approaching me that met with a way of approaching me that met the needs of my life in that moment.

the needs of my life in that moment. the needs of my life in that moment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> My My grandmother was one of those >> My My grandmother was one of those >> My My grandmother was one of those women, she women, she women, she taught me to love the world. She was a taught me to love the world. She was a taught me to love the world. She was a devout Pauline Christian, devout Pauline Christian, devout Pauline Christian, but nevertheless, she taught me to love but nevertheless, she taught me to love but nevertheless, she taught me to love the beauty and the artistry of the the beauty and the artistry of the the beauty and the artistry of the world. And we would we would explore New world. And we would we would explore New world. And we would we would explore New York City every after Every afternoon I York City every after Every afternoon I York City every after Every afternoon I was with her. was with her. was with her. And she would say to me, "Son, always And she would say to me, "Son, always And she would say to me, "Son, always look for the glory of God in the city. look for the glory of God in the city. look for the glory of God in the city. Look at it in the faces of people. Look Look at it in the faces of people. Look Look at it in the faces of people. Look for the glory of God in the sculpture, for the glory of God in the sculpture, for the glory of God in the sculpture, in the park the parks, the architecture, in the park the parks, the architecture, in the park the parks, the architecture, the museums." So, I grew up with this the museums." So, I grew up with this the museums." So, I grew up with this enormous curiosity enormous curiosity enormous curiosity that she built in me, that this was that she built in me, that this was that she built in me, that this was God's world, and I was going to break God's world, and I was going to break God's world, and I was going to break from anybody who said it wasn't. from anybody who said it wasn't. from anybody who said it wasn't. And then there was my track coach who And then there was my track coach who And then there was my track coach who about whom I wrote a a book in my prep about whom I wrote a a book in my prep about whom I wrote a a book in my prep school years. school years. school years. And he was determined that I should And he was determined that I should And he was determined that I should learn from my athleticism spiritual learn from my athleticism spiritual learn from my athleticism spiritual principles. principles. principles. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, they went hand in glove, and you >> And so, they went hand in glove, and you >> And so, they went hand in glove, and you know, to this day I I hear my coach in know, to this day I I hear my coach in know, to this day I I hear my coach in the back of my head whenever I question the back of my head whenever I question the back of my head whenever I question something. He's always there, 60 years something. He's always there, 60 years something. He's always there, 60 years later, you know, instructing me, later, you know, instructing me, later, you know, instructing me, mentoring me.

mentoring me. mentoring me. And then there were others who come And then there were others who come And then there were others who come along. along. along. We don't have time to mention them all, We don't have time to mention them all, We don't have time to mention them all, but the mentors kept me in the faith. but the mentors kept me in the faith. but the mentors kept me in the faith. And then when I I about 21, And then when I I about 21, And then when I I about 21, I went to a university conference um on I went to a university conference um on I went to a university conference um on Christianity, listened to a well-known Christianity, listened to a well-known Christianity, listened to a well-known theologian of that time talk about the theologian of that time talk about the theologian of that time talk about the life of Jesus and the resurrection, life of Jesus and the resurrection, life of Jesus and the resurrection, and it fell into place. And so, I had an and it fell into place. And so, I had an and it fell into place. And so, I had an adult conversion. adult conversion. adult conversion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and and many of us, if we would admit >> Um and and many of us, if we would admit >> Um and and many of us, if we would admit it, probably had about five conversions. it, probably had about five conversions. it, probably had about five conversions. Uh I had at least five conversions, and Uh I had at least five conversions, and Uh I had at least five conversions, and that was the big one, and it came about that was the big one, and it came about that was the big one, and it came about 2 years before I met Gail, my 2 years before I met Gail, my 2 years before I met Gail, my wife-to-be. wife-to-be. wife-to-be. And um you know, our faith just merged And um you know, our faith just merged And um you know, our faith just merged when that happened. So, that that would when that happened. So, that that would when that happened. So, that that would be the process I be the process I be the process I Uh somebody asked me the other day if I Uh somebody asked me the other day if I Uh somebody asked me the other day if I ever doubt, and I I said, "Oh, sure." ever doubt, and I I said, "Oh, sure." ever doubt, and I I said, "Oh, sure." And Gail was a little bit shocked that I And Gail was a little bit shocked that I And Gail was a little bit shocked that I would say it as as bluntly as that, but would say it as as bluntly as that, but would say it as as bluntly as that, but you know, you as life goes on and the you know, you as life goes on and the you know, you as life goes on and the the realities of your life change, the realities of your life change, the realities of your life change, you're always having to rebuild, you're always having to rebuild, you're always having to rebuild, reorganize your faith. And my theory is reorganize your faith. And my theory is reorganize your faith. And my theory is that every 7 to 10 years, that every 7 to 10 years, that every 7 to 10 years, we all rebuild our faith, whether we we all rebuild our faith, whether we we all rebuild our faith, whether we know it or not. We we bring into place know it or not. We we bring into place know it or not. We we bring into place new scriptures, new insights, new new scriptures, new insights, new new scriptures, new insights, new heroes. And uh I'm now in my 80th year, heroes. And uh I'm now in my 80th year, heroes. And uh I'm now in my 80th year, so I I have my faith is a faith of a so I I have my faith is a faith of a so I I have my faith is a faith of a 70-year-old year-old. Very different 70-year-old year-old. Very different 70-year-old year-old. Very different than when I was 20.

than when I was 20. than when I was 20. >> This episode is brought to you by Alpha >> This episode is brought to you by Alpha >> This episode is brought to you by Alpha USA. So, the data is pretty striking USA. So, the data is pretty striking USA. So, the data is pretty striking right now. Spiritual curiosity is right now. Spiritual curiosity is right now. Spiritual curiosity is rising, especially among young adults, rising, especially among young adults, rising, especially among young adults, as we've talked about over and over as we've talked about over and over as we've talked about over and over again on this podcast. People who walked again on this podcast. People who walked again on this podcast. People who walked away from faith are asking questions, away from faith are asking questions, away from faith are asking questions, but here's the tension a lot of church but here's the tension a lot of church but here's the tension a lot of church leaders feel. The curiosity is real, but leaders feel. The curiosity is real, but leaders feel. The curiosity is real, but your church isn't quite sure how to meet your church isn't quite sure how to meet your church isn't quite sure how to meet it. Alpha was built exactly for this it. Alpha was built exactly for this it. Alpha was built exactly for this moment. It's a free guide to lead a moment. It's a free guide to lead a moment. It's a free guide to lead a series of conversations so people can series of conversations so people can series of conversations so people can unpack the basics of the Christian faith unpack the basics of the Christian faith unpack the basics of the Christian faith together. together. together. No pressure, just honest conversation No pressure, just honest conversation No pressure, just honest conversation over a good meal. Any church, any size, over a good meal. Any church, any size, over a good meal. Any church, any size, fully supported, nothing to build from fully supported, nothing to build from fully supported, nothing to build from scratch. So, if your church is ready to scratch. So, if your church is ready to scratch. So, if your church is ready to open a door for the people in your open a door for the people in your open a door for the people in your community who are searching, Alpha has a community who are searching, Alpha has a community who are searching, Alpha has a free three-step launch plan that shows free three-step launch plan that shows free three-step launch plan that shows exactly how to get your first gathering exactly how to get your first gathering exactly how to get your first gathering off the ground. So, download it at off the ground. So, download it at off the ground. So, download it at alphausa.org/carey. alphausa.org/carey. alphausa.org/carey. That's alpha, a l p h a, usa.org/carey.

That's alpha, a l p h a, usa.org/carey. That's alpha, a l p h a, usa.org/carey. This episode is brought to you by my new This episode is brought to you by my new This episode is brought to you by my new book, AI in the future church. So, book, AI in the future church. So, book, AI in the future church. So, here's something that really surprised here's something that really surprised here's something that really surprised me as I studied and used AI over the me as I studied and used AI over the me as I studied and used AI over the last few years. last few years. last few years. Everything that church leaders are Everything that church leaders are Everything that church leaders are afraid AI might do to your church is the afraid AI might do to your church is the afraid AI might do to your church is the exact thing that might make your church exact thing that might make your church exact thing that might make your church matter the most. The more artificial the matter the most. The more artificial the matter the most. The more artificial the world gets, world gets, world gets, the more people run toward what the the more people run toward what the the more people run toward what the church can offer. What can the church church can offer. What can the church church can offer. What can the church offer? Real presence, real community, offer? Real presence, real community, offer? Real presence, real community, real hope. So, that's exactly why I real hope. So, that's exactly why I real hope. So, that's exactly why I wrote and I'm releasing my newest book wrote and I'm releasing my newest book wrote and I'm releasing my newest book this September. It's called Artificial this September. It's called Artificial this September. It's called Artificial Intelligence in the Future Church. It's Intelligence in the Future Church. It's Intelligence in the Future Church. It's a pastoral playbook for leading your a pastoral playbook for leading your a pastoral playbook for leading your church through the biggest disruption I church through the biggest disruption I church through the biggest disruption I think the world has ever faced, and it's think the world has ever faced, and it's think the world has ever faced, and it's built around three shifts: making your built around three shifts: making your built around three shifts: making your Sundays non-downloadable, Sundays non-downloadable, Sundays non-downloadable, building the shock absorbers you need building the shock absorbers you need building the shock absorbers you need before the next crisis hits, and before the next crisis hits, and before the next crisis hits, and fortifying your personal integrity fortifying your personal integrity fortifying your personal integrity before AI exposes what you might fall before AI exposes what you might fall before AI exposes what you might fall for. So, if you lead a church or a team, for. So, if you lead a church or a team, for. So, if you lead a church or a team, I think this is the season to get the I think this is the season to get the I think this is the season to get the book in front of you. You can pre-order book in front of you. You can pre-order book in front of you. You can pre-order it now at aifuture.church it now at aifuture.church it now at aifuture.church or on Amazon, Barnes & Noble's, or or on Amazon, Barnes & Noble's, or or on Amazon, Barnes & Noble's, or anywhere you buy books. This opportunity anywhere you buy books. This opportunity anywhere you buy books. This opportunity is way bigger than the threat. That's is way bigger than the threat. That's is way bigger than the threat. That's why I wrote this book to help you and why I wrote this book to help you and why I wrote this book to help you and your team lead through the era of AI.

your team lead through the era of AI. your team lead through the era of AI. What were some of your other What were some of your other What were some of your other conversions? You said you've had five. conversions? You said you've had five. conversions? You said you've had five. >> Oh, now you're going to hold me to the >> Oh, now you're going to hold me to the >> Oh, now you're going to hold me to the number. number. number. >> Well, well, ish. >> Well, well, ish. >> Well, well, ish. >> I think there's the conversion you have >> I think there's the conversion you have >> I think there's the conversion you have as a very small child. If your If your as a very small child. If your If your as a very small child. If your If your church, like I was, I I was in church church, like I was, I I was in church church, like I was, I I was in church from, you know, from the fourth day I from, you know, from the fourth day I from, you know, from the fourth day I was born. was born. was born. So, you're going to Sunday school and So, you're going to Sunday school and So, you're going to Sunday school and vacation Bible school. So, the first vacation Bible school. So, the first vacation Bible school. So, the first first conversion comes as a child one at first conversion comes as a child one at first conversion comes as a child one at about 4 years of age you lift your hand about 4 years of age you lift your hand about 4 years of age you lift your hand because it pleases mother and your because it pleases mother and your because it pleases mother and your Sunday school teacher. Sunday school teacher. Sunday school teacher. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then there's the current conversion >> And then there's the current conversion >> And then there's the current conversion that comes I think 12 to 16. that comes I think 12 to 16. that comes I think 12 to 16. Um if I can say it where you're you're Um if I can say it where you're you're Um if I can say it where you're you're beginning to be hormonally driven. beginning to be hormonally driven. beginning to be hormonally driven. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And your your conversion has to take >> And your your conversion has to take >> And your your conversion has to take into account your hormones. Sin it is into account your hormones. Sin it is into account your hormones. Sin it is really about your hormones in those days really about your hormones in those days really about your hormones in those days and uh who of us as young vibrant males and uh who of us as young vibrant males and uh who of us as young vibrant males and I I'm not going to speak for women. and I I'm not going to speak for women. and I I'm not going to speak for women. But you know, you go through that period But you know, you go through that period But you know, you go through that period of time where the the temptations are of time where the the temptations are of time where the the temptations are are always there and you you have to are always there and you you have to are always there and you you have to equate your Christian life um as the equate your Christian life um as the equate your Christian life um as the life basically of being life basically of being life basically of being able to overcome temptation and that's able to overcome temptation and that's able to overcome temptation and that's every 30 minutes.

every 30 minutes. every 30 minutes. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Then I think a a third conversion comes >> Then I think a a third conversion comes >> Then I think a a third conversion comes maybe in your college years where you maybe in your college years where you maybe in your college years where you have to bring your have to bring your have to bring your faith into alignment intellectually. You faith into alignment intellectually. You faith into alignment intellectually. You have to find a base intellectually that have to find a base intellectually that have to find a base intellectually that fits the Bible stories and your desire fits the Bible stories and your desire fits the Bible stories and your desire to live and be faithful to Jesus. Now to live and be faithful to Jesus. Now to live and be faithful to Jesus. Now now you're having to deal with now you're having to deal with now you're having to deal with the history of faith in the Christian the history of faith in the Christian the history of faith in the Christian movement. And and the big ideas like the movement. And and the big ideas like the movement. And and the big ideas like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and by the way the ascension. They all and by the way the ascension. They all and by the way the ascension. They all come in order. come in order. come in order. So, that's a third conversion. So, that's a third conversion. So, that's a third conversion. I think a fourth conversion might be the I think a fourth conversion might be the I think a fourth conversion might be the conversion of uh that that is involved conversion of uh that that is involved conversion of uh that that is involved in your sense of call, what you're going in your sense of call, what you're going in your sense of call, what you're going to do with life. to do with life. to do with life. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um and you know, you have all these >> Um and you know, you have all these >> Um and you know, you have all these romantic ideas in your teens uh I romantic ideas in your teens uh I romantic ideas in your teens uh I typical of me, you know, I'm going to typical of me, you know, I'm going to typical of me, you know, I'm going to take Billy Graham's place someday would take Billy Graham's place someday would take Billy Graham's place someday would be an example. be an example. be an example. And somewhere in your college early And somewhere in your college early And somewhere in your college early adult years adult years adult years uh you begin to settle down and you uh you begin to settle down and you uh you begin to settle down and you you hopefully hear and cement into you hopefully hear and cement into you hopefully hear and cement into yourself a sense of call from God.

yourself a sense of call from God. yourself a sense of call from God. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that call becomes very powerful. >> And that call becomes very powerful. >> And that call becomes very powerful. So, there are So, there are So, there are I would say the the if if we if we're I would say the the if if we if we're I would say the the if if we if we're going in an order, the fifth conversion going in an order, the fifth conversion going in an order, the fifth conversion probably comes at midlife and on up to probably comes at midlife and on up to probably comes at midlife and on up to where I am today. where I am today. where I am today. Um Um Um it's it's a deeper conversion with new it's it's a deeper conversion with new it's it's a deeper conversion with new values, new important things. You values, new important things. You values, new important things. You um if you've taken a hit or two in life um if you've taken a hit or two in life um if you've taken a hit or two in life uh you no longer see yourself as uh you no longer see yourself as uh you no longer see yourself as potentially the most important person in potentially the most important person in potentially the most important person in the Christian movement. You Your goal is the Christian movement. You Your goal is the Christian movement. You Your goal is no longer to preach to 10,000 people. Um no longer to preach to 10,000 people. Um no longer to preach to 10,000 people. Um you know, you know, you know, all all that crazy stuff that we imagine all all that crazy stuff that we imagine all all that crazy stuff that we imagine in our earlier years, your life settles in our earlier years, your life settles in our earlier years, your life settles and centers a little bit. and centers a little bit. and centers a little bit. Now, I'm in my probably my last Now, I'm in my probably my last Now, I'm in my probably my last conversion. conversion. conversion. Now, I'm forced at my age Now, I'm forced at my age Now, I'm forced at my age to face the fact that statistically I'm to face the fact that statistically I'm to face the fact that statistically I'm probably within three or four years of probably within three or four years of probably within three or four years of my death. my death. my death. I'm within three or four years of having I'm within three or four years of having I'm within three or four years of having Gail and I having to say goodbye to each Gail and I having to say goodbye to each Gail and I having to say goodbye to each other. other. other. And some people say, "Don't say that. And some people say, "Don't say that. And some people say, "Don't say that. It's so gloomy."

It's so gloomy." It's so gloomy." But, it's biblical and it's realistic. But, it's biblical and it's realistic. But, it's biblical and it's realistic. And all you have to do is look around And all you have to do is look around And all you have to do is look around you. It's happening all the time. you. It's happening all the time. you. It's happening all the time. So, every morning when Gail and I get up So, every morning when Gail and I get up So, every morning when Gail and I get up we ask ourselves, "Is this the last we ask ourselves, "Is this the last we ask ourselves, "Is this the last normal day?" normal day?" normal day?" You have to ask that question. You have You have to ask that question. You have You have to ask that question. You have to plan for it. to plan for it. to plan for it. And then the following question is um And then the following question is um And then the following question is um "So, what's heaven like anyway?" "So, what's heaven like anyway?" "So, what's heaven like anyway?" When I was 40 When I was 40 When I was 40 I preached occasionally about heaven, I preached occasionally about heaven, I preached occasionally about heaven, not enough. not enough. not enough. But, it was a very academic type of But, it was a very academic type of But, it was a very academic type of teaching. teaching. teaching. Um Um Um today heaven is a very real question to today heaven is a very real question to today heaven is a very real question to me. me. me. How can you be sure you're going to walk How can you be sure you're going to walk How can you be sure you're going to walk through that door? through that door? through that door? And if you get on the other side, what's And if you get on the other side, what's And if you get on the other side, what's it going to be like? it going to be like? it going to be like? What are you going to What are you going What are you going to What are you going What are you going to What are you going to say when you um to say when you um to say when you um bump into a person there you never bump into a person there you never bump into a person there you never liked? liked? liked? Um Um Um you know, and and and what are you going you know, and and and what are you going you know, and and and what are you going to do there? And you go back to the old to do there? And you go back to the old to do there? And you go back to the old biblical teaching, heaven has streets of biblical teaching, heaven has streets of biblical teaching, heaven has streets of gold. gold. gold. I don't want a street gold. That would I don't want a street gold. That would I don't want a street gold. That would be too difficult to keep clean.

be too difficult to keep clean. be too difficult to keep clean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Heaven is full of mansions. I don't want >> Heaven is full of mansions. I don't want >> Heaven is full of mansions. I don't want a mansion. The property tax is too high. a mansion. The property tax is too high. a mansion. The property tax is too high. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, you know, those those first century >> So, you know, those those first century >> So, you know, those those first century early generation of writers explaining early generation of writers explaining early generation of writers explaining heaven, they were using metaphors and heaven, they were using metaphors and heaven, they were using metaphors and word pictures. It meant something to word pictures. It meant something to word pictures. It meant something to them in their impoverished state. And to them in their impoverished state. And to them in their impoverished state. And to them, a street of gold sounded pretty them, a street of gold sounded pretty them, a street of gold sounded pretty nice. nice. nice. So, that makes me in my conversion ask So, that makes me in my conversion ask So, that makes me in my conversion ask the question, the question, the question, "What do I know about heaven and how can "What do I know about heaven and how can "What do I know about heaven and how can I be sure I be sure I be sure that it's going to be there when I go?" that it's going to be there when I go?" that it's going to be there when I go?" That's a conversion of a type. So, That's a conversion of a type. So, That's a conversion of a type. So, there's five or six to you. there's five or six to you. there's five or six to you. >> I never met Dallas Willard, but I have >> I never met Dallas Willard, but I have >> I never met Dallas Willard, but I have spent some time with John Ortberg. And spent some time with John Ortberg. And spent some time with John Ortberg. And John tells stories about Dallas. He says John tells stories about Dallas. He says John tells stories about Dallas. He says he reads the Bible and Dallas Willard he reads the Bible and Dallas Willard he reads the Bible and Dallas Willard every day. every day. every day. And one of the comments about Dallas And one of the comments about Dallas And one of the comments about Dallas Willard when he died in this idea of Willard when he died in this idea of Willard when he died in this idea of sanctification sanctification sanctification was that hopefully if if your life was that hopefully if if your life was that hopefully if if your life becomes transformed enough, and I hope I becomes transformed enough, and I hope I becomes transformed enough, and I hope I get this right, Dallas's theory was it get this right, Dallas's theory was it get this right, Dallas's theory was it might be a while before he realized he might be a while before he realized he might be a while before he realized he died because the kingdom of God was died because the kingdom of God was died because the kingdom of God was being realized being realized being realized in his life, in his home, in his life, in his home, in his life, in his home, in his heart. Any thoughts on that? Is in his heart. Any thoughts on that? Is in his heart. Any thoughts on that? Is that Is that roughly what you're talking that Is that roughly what you're talking that Is that roughly what you're talking about? You You You How do you think about? You You You How do you think about? You You You How do you think about eternity?

about eternity? about eternity? >> Well, I don't think the mind is quite >> Well, I don't think the mind is quite >> Well, I don't think the mind is quite capable of embracing it. I think we've capable of embracing it. I think we've capable of embracing it. I think we've now reached the outer limits now reached the outer limits now reached the outer limits of our mental capacity of our mental capacity of our mental capacity and we're left to imagination. and we're left to imagination. and we're left to imagination. Um Um Um My comment about the streets of gold and My comment about the streets of gold and My comment about the streets of gold and that is very is very important to me that is very is very important to me that is very is very important to me because if you were to ask me, because if you were to ask me, because if you were to ask me, in this 21st century, in this 21st century, in this 21st century, what would be the most beautiful ideas what would be the most beautiful ideas what would be the most beautiful ideas of life? Well, the first one I'd say is of life? Well, the first one I'd say is of life? Well, the first one I'd say is beauty. beauty. beauty. Uh Uh Uh Whenever you experience a a flash moment Whenever you experience a a flash moment Whenever you experience a a flash moment of beauty, a mountain scene, of beauty, a mountain scene, of beauty, a mountain scene, or a beautiful child, or something like or a beautiful child, or something like or a beautiful child, or something like that. There's something that rises up in that. There's something that rises up in that. There's something that rises up in you for a moment. Um you for a moment. Um you for a moment. Um people might call it awe. people might call it awe. people might call it awe. Well, what if heaven is perpetual awe? Well, what if heaven is perpetual awe? Well, what if heaven is perpetual awe? And being in heaven means we're we're And being in heaven means we're we're And being in heaven means we're we're constantly stripping back the layers of constantly stripping back the layers of constantly stripping back the layers of God's infinite creation. And we're going God's infinite creation. And we're going God's infinite creation. And we're going to spend an eternity discovering an to spend an eternity discovering an to spend an eternity discovering an eternal heaven. That makes That gets my eternal heaven. That makes That gets my eternal heaven. That makes That gets my imagination running. I think secondly, imagination running. I think secondly, imagination running. I think secondly, imagination is a place of relationship.

imagination is a place of relationship. imagination is a place of relationship. And I can imagine And I can imagine And I can imagine unlimited amounts of time without unlimited amounts of time without unlimited amounts of time without restriction where you listen to each restriction where you listen to each restriction where you listen to each other and you tell stories and you other and you tell stories and you other and you tell stories and you imagine and you enjoy the presence of imagine and you enjoy the presence of imagine and you enjoy the presence of one another in magnificent ways in which one another in magnificent ways in which one another in magnificent ways in which today is just a little hint. today is just a little hint. today is just a little hint. Um Um Um So, those are things that come to me So, those are things that come to me So, those are things that come to me about heaven. I I'm trying to find about heaven. I I'm trying to find about heaven. I I'm trying to find parallels in life today parallels in life today parallels in life today that will set me up for what heaven that will set me up for what heaven that will set me up for what heaven might be like. might be like. might be like. >> What I You mentioned the image and I've >> What I You mentioned the image and I've >> What I You mentioned the image and I've heard you talk about that before, that heard you talk about that before, that heard you talk about that before, that the image you have of your father is of the image you have of your father is of the image you have of your father is of his back and he's walking away into his back and he's walking away into his back and he's walking away into ministry. ministry. ministry. Do you think or how do you think that Do you think or how do you think that Do you think or how do you think that impacted you? impacted you? impacted you? >> Well, it impacted me very powerfully. Um >> Well, it impacted me very powerfully. Um >> Well, it impacted me very powerfully. Um the And again, I'll I'll say what I said the And again, I'll I'll say what I said the And again, I'll I'll say what I said before, the salvation in in that mess before, the salvation in in that mess before, the salvation in in that mess was that I left home at the age of 14 to was that I left home at the age of 14 to was that I left home at the age of 14 to go to prep school. So, my my the bulk of go to prep school. So, my my the bulk of go to prep school. So, my my the bulk of my teenage years were spent 2,000 miles my teenage years were spent 2,000 miles my teenage years were spent 2,000 miles away from my family of origin. And while away from my family of origin. And while away from my family of origin. And while I was back in New York I was back in New York I was back in New York becoming a student, my mother and father becoming a student, my mother and father becoming a student, my mother and father were laying the tracks for a divorce, uh were laying the tracks for a divorce, uh were laying the tracks for a divorce, uh which ultimately happened.

which ultimately happened. which ultimately happened. So, So, So, uh I escaped a lot of the the pain that uh I escaped a lot of the the pain that uh I escaped a lot of the the pain that would have been on my back if I'd been would have been on my back if I'd been would have been on my back if I'd been there. there. there. But, maybe I I got off track there. But, But, maybe I I got off track there. But, But, maybe I I got off track there. But, the important thing in all of that was the important thing in all of that was the important thing in all of that was that other men entered my life. that other men entered my life. that other men entered my life. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they were they were very much father >> And they were they were very much father >> And they were they were very much father figures. And each one played, you could figures. And each one played, you could figures. And each one played, you could say, the fatherly role to me at a very say, the fatherly role to me at a very say, the fatherly role to me at a very timely moment when I needed that man. Um timely moment when I needed that man. Um timely moment when I needed that man. Um I'm thinking of a man that I I shared an I'm thinking of a man that I I shared an I'm thinking of a man that I I shared an apartment. He rented apartment room to apartment. He rented apartment room to apartment. He rented apartment room to me for 2 years. me for 2 years. me for 2 years. He was a godly man. He was a godly man. He was a godly man. Very principled, full of Christian Very principled, full of Christian Very principled, full of Christian character. And he grew me up to be a character. And he grew me up to be a character. And he grew me up to be a gentleman. You know, he would say, gentleman. You know, he would say, gentleman. You know, he would say, "Gordon, "Gordon, "Gordon, a man of God puts the toilet seat down a man of God puts the toilet seat down a man of God puts the toilet seat down when he finishes using it." Or he'd say, when he finishes using it." Or he'd say, when he finishes using it." Or he'd say, "Gordon, a man of job a man of God pays "Gordon, a man of job a man of God pays "Gordon, a man of job a man of God pays his bills on time." Or a man of God his bills on time." Or a man of God his bills on time." Or a man of God treats the women he dates with the treats the women he dates with the treats the women he dates with the utmost of courtesy and respect. utmost of courtesy and respect. utmost of courtesy and respect. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh he makes his bed every morning. These >> Uh he makes his bed every morning. These >> Uh he makes his bed every morning. These were all things that I'm not sure I was were all things that I'm not sure I was were all things that I'm not sure I was doing until I met him.

doing until I met him. doing until I met him. But, um But, um But, um that's what helped me to compensate for that's what helped me to compensate for that's what helped me to compensate for a lossness of fatherhood is I had men a lossness of fatherhood is I had men a lossness of fatherhood is I had men like him who came into my life at just like him who came into my life at just like him who came into my life at just the perfect moment. And maybe it's part the perfect moment. And maybe it's part the perfect moment. And maybe it's part of my own temperament, but I studied of my own temperament, but I studied of my own temperament, but I studied these people. I watched them. I observed these people. I watched them. I observed these people. I watched them. I observed them. I copied them. And even to this them. I copied them. And even to this them. I copied them. And even to this day at the age of 80, day at the age of 80, day at the age of 80, um um um it's not infrequent that I I will make a it's not infrequent that I I will make a it's not infrequent that I I will make a choice or do something or say something, choice or do something or say something, choice or do something or say something, and I'll say inside myself, "That's the and I'll say inside myself, "That's the and I'll say inside myself, "That's the way Keith would have said it." way Keith would have said it." way Keith would have said it." >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> That's the way coach would have done it. >> That's the way coach would have done it. >> That's the way coach would have done it. That's the way Vernon would have, you That's the way Vernon would have, you That's the way Vernon would have, you know. And so, I see all these mentors, know. And so, I see all these mentors, know. And so, I see all these mentors, these men and women in my life, and I these men and women in my life, and I these men and women in my life, and I say to myself, "How say to myself, "How say to myself, "How wonderful it was of the living God wonderful it was of the living God wonderful it was of the living God to know what kind of surrogate parents I to know what kind of surrogate parents I to know what kind of surrogate parents I needed at just the right time." And the needed at just the right time." And the needed at just the right time." And the last of those was Gail, my wife. last of those was Gail, my wife. last of those was Gail, my wife. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um because she she's been the one who's because she she's been the one who's because she she's been the one who's been putting the finishing touches of been putting the finishing touches of been putting the finishing touches of life into me over these last 58 years.

life into me over these last 58 years. life into me over these last 58 years. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. So, you have a life to look back on and So, you have a life to look back on and So, you have a life to look back on and a whole leadership journey as a pastor, a whole leadership journey as a pastor, a whole leadership journey as a pastor, an author, a speaker, and and really in an author, a speaker, and and really in an author, a speaker, and and really in many ways a thought and spiritual many ways a thought and spiritual many ways a thought and spiritual leader. leader. leader. Um obviously did a lot of things right. Um obviously did a lot of things right. Um obviously did a lot of things right. So, we have a lot of young leaders, So, we have a lot of young leaders, So, we have a lot of young leaders, majority of people listening to this majority of people listening to this majority of people listening to this podcast are young. podcast are young. podcast are young. What did you do well that laid an What did you do well that laid an What did you do well that laid an excellent foundation for your life? What excellent foundation for your life? What excellent foundation for your life? What are some things that you're like glad are some things that you're like glad are some things that you're like glad you just do it the same if you were you just do it the same if you were you just do it the same if you were starting over again, you just do it the starting over again, you just do it the starting over again, you just do it the same way? same way? same way? >> Well, I think I in one sense I've >> Well, I think I in one sense I've >> Well, I think I in one sense I've already said it in that already said it in that already said it in that I was always curious about people. To I was always curious about people. To I was always curious about people. To this day I this day I this day I I meet a person, I'm full of questions I meet a person, I'm full of questions I meet a person, I'm full of questions about your story. about your story. about your story. I want to know I'm I want to ask you the I want to know I'm I want to ask you the I want to know I'm I want to ask you the same question you just asked me. same question you just asked me. same question you just asked me. So, I've I've always been a listener. So, I've I've always been a listener. So, I've I've always been a listener. That doesn't mean I always obeyed the That doesn't mean I always obeyed the That doesn't mean I always obeyed the things I heard. things I heard. things I heard. But if anything they they got stored up But if anything they they got stored up But if anything they they got stored up somewhere inside of me so that I like a somewhere inside of me so that I like a somewhere inside of me so that I like a book on a shelf I took them off later on book on a shelf I took them off later on book on a shelf I took them off later on and profited from what I'd heard and and profited from what I'd heard and and profited from what I'd heard and seen.

seen. seen. And by the way I did and began discover And by the way I did and began discover And by the way I did and began discover that many of those to whom I must listen that many of those to whom I must listen that many of those to whom I must listen were not necessarily Christian people. were not necessarily Christian people. were not necessarily Christian people. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> They were men and women out in the >> They were men and women out in the >> They were men and women out in the larger world who larger world who larger world who could we say adjectivally were living by could we say adjectivally were living by could we say adjectivally were living by the larger grace of God. the larger grace of God. the larger grace of God. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And and were wise and disciplined and >> And and were wise and disciplined and >> And and were wise and disciplined and likable and relational. So, that's the I likable and relational. So, that's the I likable and relational. So, that's the I would say that's one of the first things would say that's one of the first things would say that's one of the first things I did right. Um I did right. Um I did right. Um is I feel a little bit arrogant trying is I feel a little bit arrogant trying is I feel a little bit arrogant trying to talk about what I did right. The to talk about what I did right. The to talk about what I did right. The second thing I probably did right in second thing I probably did right in second thing I probably did right in those early days those early days those early days was I made some good choices about was I made some good choices about was I made some good choices about relationships. Um the best choice I made relationships. Um the best choice I made relationships. Um the best choice I made of course was Gail. of course was Gail. of course was Gail. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh my friend Keith who I mentioned >> And uh my friend Keith who I mentioned >> And uh my friend Keith who I mentioned to you a few moments ago came back to to you a few moments ago came back to to you a few moments ago came back to the apartment one night and he said, the apartment one night and he said, the apartment one night and he said, "Gordon, "Gordon, "Gordon, I think I've met a woman who would make I think I've met a woman who would make I think I've met a woman who would make you an incredible wife." you an incredible wife." you an incredible wife." And the next day he introduced me and 4 And the next day he introduced me and 4 And the next day he introduced me and 4 months later we were married. months later we were married. months later we were married. >> That was fast. >> That was fast. >> That was fast. >> Fast. But the reason it happened >> Fast. But the reason it happened >> Fast. But the reason it happened was that I trusted the man who was that I trusted the man who was that I trusted the man who introduced me.

introduced me. introduced me. >> Ah. [sighs] >> Ah. [sighs] >> Ah. [sighs] >> And that's something in our Western >> And that's something in our Western >> And that's something in our Western culture we don't think about too often. culture we don't think about too often. culture we don't think about too often. If you and I were in China or Japan, If you and I were in China or Japan, If you and I were in China or Japan, we would talk about the introducer we would talk about the introducer we would talk about the introducer who who who picks a spouse picks a spouse picks a spouse uh for another person. So, it's been a uh for another person. So, it's been a uh for another person. So, it's been a very real Asian tradition, the very real Asian tradition, the very real Asian tradition, the introducer. introducer. introducer. And by the way, if the marriage doesn't And by the way, if the marriage doesn't And by the way, if the marriage doesn't work, the introducer gets the blame. work, the introducer gets the blame. work, the introducer gets the blame. Uh Uh Uh but my friend Keith was the introducer. but my friend Keith was the introducer. but my friend Keith was the introducer. And And And he was a young he was a man who pumps so he was a young he was a man who pumps so he was a young he was a man who pumps so much much much into me that when he says, "I made you into me that when he says, "I made you into me that when he says, "I made you I've met a woman that would make you a I've met a woman that would make you a I've met a woman that would make you a good wife." I don't treat this as a good wife." I don't treat this as a good wife." I don't treat this as a shallow comment. shallow comment. shallow comment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I I it's dead serious to me. What is he >> I I it's dead serious to me. What is he >> I I it's dead serious to me. What is he seeing in this human being seeing in this human being seeing in this human being that I could profit from and that I that I could profit from and that I that I could profit from and that I could give to? So, I meet Gail the next could give to? So, I meet Gail the next could give to? So, I meet Gail the next day and in 30 minutes day and in 30 minutes day and in 30 minutes in 30 minutes we have something going. in 30 minutes we have something going. in 30 minutes we have something going. And 3 weeks after we'd met, I gave her a And 3 weeks after we'd met, I gave her a And 3 weeks after we'd met, I gave her a ring and 4 months later we walked the ring and 4 months later we walked the ring and 4 months later we walked the aisle together.

aisle together. aisle together. Never regretted that. That's one of the Never regretted that. That's one of the Never regretted that. That's one of the things I did right. things I did right. things I did right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um I think the the only other thing that I think the the only other thing that I think the the only other thing that well well well I did fairly well over the years, Carey, I did fairly well over the years, Carey, I did fairly well over the years, Carey, in in in picking men and women to work with. picking men and women to work with. picking men and women to work with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um >> And um >> And um it was a it was a tough My generation is it was a it was a tough My generation is it was a it was a tough My generation is the bridge generation from the small the bridge generation from the small the bridge generation from the small pastoral church to the large mega pastoral church to the large mega pastoral church to the large mega church. church. church. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um we were the people who dreamed up all >> Um we were the people who dreamed up all >> Um we were the people who dreamed up all these ideas that people like you are these ideas that people like you are these ideas that people like you are making happen. making happen. making happen. Um Um Um and so and so and so we were we were rewriting the script all we were we were rewriting the script all we were we were rewriting the script all the way along the line and failure was the way along the line and failure was the way along the line and failure was always right down the around the corner always right down the around the corner always right down the around the corner because we had no precedents. because we had no precedents. because we had no precedents. We could couldn't go to anybody and say, We could couldn't go to anybody and say, We could couldn't go to anybody and say, "How do you do this?" There were none "How do you do this?" There were none "How do you do this?" There were none none of these big conferences like they none of these big conferences like they none of these big conferences like they have them today. have them today. have them today. So we were we were moving along by So we were we were moving along by So we were we were moving along by instinct and the most important thing instinct and the most important thing instinct and the most important thing you were doing constantly you were doing constantly you were doing constantly was bringing around you men and women was bringing around you men and women was bringing around you men and women that could make this vision go.

that could make this vision go. that could make this vision go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um >> And um >> And um as the lead pastor as they now use the as the lead pastor as they now use the as the lead pastor as they now use the term, term, term, one of my most important jobs was hiring one of my most important jobs was hiring one of my most important jobs was hiring people. people. people. And um And um And um you know, I I give myself about a 60% you know, I I give myself about a 60% you know, I I give myself about a 60% success grade on that and I challenge success grade on that and I challenge success grade on that and I challenge anybody to think they can do it any anybody to think they can do it any anybody to think they can do it any better. better. better. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> Yeah, [laughter] >> Yeah, [laughter] fair. fair. fair. >> You know, you talk to any number of >> You know, you talk to any number of >> You know, you talk to any number of pastors and they will probably tell you pastors and they will probably tell you pastors and they will probably tell you that their number one struggle is in that their number one struggle is in that their number one struggle is in building staff and maintaining it. And building staff and maintaining it. And building staff and maintaining it. And um um um we back in the '70s and '80s, we back in the '70s and '80s, we back in the '70s and '80s, that was that was the most difficult that was that was the most difficult that was that was the most difficult task. task. task. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in growth, especially when you're in growth, especially when you're in growth, especially when you're in ministry. You need an event platform ministry. You need an event platform ministry. You need an event platform that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a season of abundance. So turn the effort season of abundance. So turn the effort season of abundance. So turn the effort of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. Brushfire has been helping churches Brushfire has been helping churches Brushfire has been helping churches manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 years and it's all in one easy-to-use years and it's all in one easy-to-use years and it's all in one easy-to-use platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by going to brushfire.com/carey.

going to brushfire.com/carey. going to brushfire.com/carey. That's brushfire.com/carey. >> What what gave you and I agree 60% I >> What what gave you and I agree 60% I mean that that is good. I don't know mean that that is good. I don't know mean that that is good. I don't know that mine is much higher. that mine is much higher. that mine is much higher. Hopefully getting better at it every Hopefully getting better at it every Hopefully getting better at it every decade. But what were some qualities and decade. But what were some qualities and decade. But what were some qualities and characteristics that you were looking characteristics that you were looking characteristics that you were looking for in your team that you said okay for in your team that you said okay for in your team that you said okay these these are things I need to look these these are things I need to look these these are things I need to look for in the future. >> Obviously you're looking for people who >> Obviously you're looking for people who have a strong spiritual foundation. have a strong spiritual foundation. have a strong spiritual foundation. Which is difficult when you're looking Which is difficult when you're looking Which is difficult when you're looking for people in their 20s and early 30s for people in their 20s and early 30s for people in their 20s and early 30s because because because let's not kid each other. You don't let's not kid each other. You don't let's not kid each other. You don't become snap, crackle, and pop a man or become snap, crackle, and pop a man or become snap, crackle, and pop a man or woman of God. woman of God. woman of God. We're often looking for traits in people We're often looking for traits in people We're often looking for traits in people that it takes 35 years to build. that it takes 35 years to build. that it takes 35 years to build. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So when you're in your 20 my first well >> So when you're in your 20 my first well >> So when you're in your 20 my first well my second church my second church my second church there were 600 people. So I had a staff there were 600 people. So I had a staff there were 600 people. So I had a staff of about four or five. of about four or five. of about four or five. And again in those days church most And again in those days church most And again in those days church most churches didn't have staffs.

churches didn't have staffs. churches didn't have staffs. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> this is when it's opening up to these >> this is when it's opening up to these >> this is when it's opening up to these specialty programmatic ministries. specialty programmatic ministries. specialty programmatic ministries. Um Um Um and so nobody had ever given me a and so nobody had ever given me a and so nobody had ever given me a management principle in seminary. I management principle in seminary. I management principle in seminary. I never heard the word management in never heard the word management in never heard the word management in seminary. seminary. seminary. And suddenly I'm managing And suddenly I'm managing And suddenly I'm managing a very complex organization with a staff a very complex organization with a staff a very complex organization with a staff with several dozen programs reporting up with several dozen programs reporting up with several dozen programs reporting up the line line by line till they get to the line line by line till they get to the line line by line till they get to my desk. How do you do that? my desk. How do you do that? my desk. How do you do that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How do you do that? And I remember one >> How do you do that? And I remember one >> How do you do that? And I remember one day in frustration slapping the desk day in frustration slapping the desk day in frustration slapping the desk with my open palm and saying right out with my open palm and saying right out with my open palm and saying right out loud to the walls nobody ever taught me loud to the walls nobody ever taught me loud to the walls nobody ever taught me how to run this church. how to run this church. how to run this church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I had to go to the business world >> And so I had to go to the business world >> And so I had to go to the business world and take um and take um and take um lessons from secular organizations that lessons from secular organizations that lessons from secular organizations that could help me to know how you run a could help me to know how you run a could help me to know how you run a nonprofit organization like a church. nonprofit organization like a church. nonprofit organization like a church. But back to the people you want and But back to the people you want and But back to the people you want and women with a strong spirit, a sense of women with a strong spirit, a sense of women with a strong spirit, a sense of call, call, call, people who know how to be loyal.

people who know how to be loyal. people who know how to be loyal. You want people who are willing You want people who are willing You want people who are willing within the lines of respect within the lines of respect within the lines of respect um to tell you the truth um to tell you the truth um to tell you the truth when they think you you've missed when they think you you've missed when they think you you've missed something or you're blowing it in one something or you're blowing it in one something or you're blowing it in one place or another. place or another. place or another. You want people who are teachable and You want people who are teachable and You want people who are teachable and are always growing. are always growing. are always growing. And um And um And um I think you want people who are going to I think you want people who are going to I think you want people who are going to stick around for a while. stick around for a while. stick around for a while. Um and you know, that now that board is Um and you know, that now that board is Um and you know, that now that board is out. You're If you If you're hiring a out. You're If you If you're hiring a out. You're If you If you're hiring a male or a female and they're married, male or a female and they're married, male or a female and they're married, you want you want to inquire something you want you want to inquire something you want you want to inquire something about their quality of their about their quality of their about their quality of their relationship at home. Cuz if there's relationship at home. Cuz if there's relationship at home. Cuz if there's problems at home, it's going to make it problems at home, it's going to make it problems at home, it's going to make it to the office real quick. Oh, yeah. So, to the office real quick. Oh, yeah. So, to the office real quick. Oh, yeah. So, you're watching this all the time. you're watching this all the time. you're watching this all the time. And I I guess that would be, you know, And I I guess that would be, you know, And I I guess that would be, you know, you surprised me with with a good you surprised me with with a good you surprised me with with a good question there. question there. question there. Those are the things that come off the Those are the things that come off the Those are the things that come off the top of my head that I remember looking top of my head that I remember looking top of my head that I remember looking for again and again. for again and again. for again and again. I was not afraid to hire people that I was not afraid to hire people that I was not afraid to hire people that came right out of our church came right out of our church came right out of our church congregation.

congregation. congregation. In fact, the 60% rule, I I would suggest In fact, the 60% rule, I I would suggest In fact, the 60% rule, I I would suggest that that number drops when you're that that number drops when you're that that number drops when you're hiring people from other parts of the hiring people from other parts of the hiring people from other parts of the country. country. country. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When you've seen a man or a woman >> When you've seen a man or a woman >> When you've seen a man or a woman operating in the confines of the operating in the confines of the operating in the confines of the congregation for a period of time, congregation for a period of time, congregation for a period of time, you're able to watch their growth, the you're able to watch their growth, the you're able to watch their growth, the way they interface with people, way they interface with people, way they interface with people, um the way they relate to you, um the way they relate to you, um the way they relate to you, obviously. obviously. obviously. So, I would think that the 60% rises a So, I would think that the 60% rises a So, I would think that the 60% rises a little bit when you go into the little bit when you go into the little bit when you go into the congregation and you discover that a congregation and you discover that a congregation and you discover that a person um that if if you get them the person um that if if you get them the person um that if if you get them the right kind of teaching, uh just might be right kind of teaching, uh just might be right kind of teaching, uh just might be a real asset to your team. a real asset to your team. a real asset to your team. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> What are some things when you look back >> What are some things when you look back >> What are some things when you look back at it, yourself at 20 or 30 that you're at it, yourself at 20 or 30 that you're at it, yourself at 20 or 30 that you're like, "Oh, I would never do that again." like, "Oh, I would never do that again." like, "Oh, I would never do that again." Anything that you're you're looking back Anything that you're you're looking back Anything that you're you're looking back on um that you would do differently? >> Not a whole lot. Um you know, I and I >> Not a whole lot. Um you know, I and I don't want that interpreted or doesn't don't want that interpreted or doesn't don't want that interpreted or doesn't think he made mistakes.

think he made mistakes. think he made mistakes. >> [laughter] >> I I do think I would have been a little >> I I do think I would have been a little bit more effective bit more effective bit more effective in cutting back on all that ambitious in cutting back on all that ambitious in cutting back on all that ambitious drive that we all had in our 30s. drive that we all had in our 30s. drive that we all had in our 30s. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh there was too much of a show. >> Uh there was too much of a show. >> Uh there was too much of a show. >> Do you think that's a 30s thing? Like >> Do you think that's a 30s thing? Like >> Do you think that's a 30s thing? Like when you cuz I look back it resonated when you cuz I look back it resonated when you cuz I look back it resonated immediately. My ambition really got a immediately. My ambition really got a immediately. My ambition really got a hold of me in my 30s. hold of me in my 30s. hold of me in my 30s. >> Yeah, I think it would be age 32 to 42 >> Yeah, I think it would be age 32 to 42 >> Yeah, I think it would be age 32 to 42 if I'm allowed to pick a bracket. if I'm allowed to pick a bracket. if I'm allowed to pick a bracket. >> Please do. >> Please do. >> Please do. >> Um >> Um >> Um those are the years where you're you those are the years where you're you those are the years where you're you know, you've know, you've know, you've you have finally gotten into ministry in you have finally gotten into ministry in you have finally gotten into ministry in your 20s. your 20s. your 20s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you've got what education you're >> And you've got what education you're >> And you've got what education you're going to get. going to get. going to get. And now And now And now now you're you you have to and I'm using now you're you you have to and I'm using now you're you you have to and I'm using the word the word the word Gil wouldn't like this, perform. Gil wouldn't like this, perform. Gil wouldn't like this, perform. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And you're also measuring yourself >> And you're also measuring yourself >> And you're also measuring yourself against people all across the country against people all across the country against people all across the country and particularly today and particularly today and particularly today thanks to people like you, there's media thanks to people like you, there's media thanks to people like you, there's media that's spreading the stories all the that's spreading the stories all the that's spreading the stories all the time.

time. time. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> When I first got into ministry, we had >> When I first got into ministry, we had >> When I first got into ministry, we had none of these connections. So you you none of these connections. So you you none of these connections. So you you were pretty much all on your own and were pretty much all on your own and were pretty much all on your own and every once in a while you might hear every once in a while you might hear every once in a while you might hear what someone was doing a thousand miles what someone was doing a thousand miles what someone was doing a thousand miles away. away. away. But yeah, the 30s are are the years But yeah, the 30s are are the years But yeah, the 30s are are the years where you're you're where you're you're where you're you're your ambition is flowing. You're you your ambition is flowing. You're you your ambition is flowing. You're you think you have a passionate desire think you have a passionate desire think you have a passionate desire um to be faithful to God. You dare to um to be faithful to God. You dare to um to be faithful to God. You dare to think that that one of these days God's think that that one of these days God's think that that one of these days God's going to read your address and he's going to read your address and he's going to read your address and he's going to call you to something huge. Um going to call you to something huge. Um going to call you to something huge. Um you're reading the biographies of of men you're reading the biographies of of men you're reading the biographies of of men and women who over the years God really and women who over the years God really and women who over the years God really blessed. I want to be like that, you blessed. I want to be like that, you blessed. I want to be like that, you know, something like that. know, something like that. know, something like that. And then around 38 and And then around 38 and And then around 38 and again again again I've noticed that pastors that are I've noticed that pastors that are I've noticed that pastors that are struggling will come up to me at the age struggling will come up to me at the age struggling will come up to me at the age of 38 of 38 of 38 48 and 62 to to give you some arbitrary 48 and 62 to to give you some arbitrary 48 and 62 to to give you some arbitrary numbers. numbers. numbers. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The 38-year-olds are saying, "Gordon >> The 38-year-olds are saying, "Gordon >> The 38-year-olds are saying, "Gordon I'm exhausted. I've run out of ideas.

I'm exhausted. I've run out of ideas. I'm exhausted. I've run out of ideas. I I I just keep shopping on the internet I I I just keep shopping on the internet I I I just keep shopping on the internet and conferences. Who's doing what? How and conferences. Who's doing what? How and conferences. Who's doing what? How can I copy that? And we're rolling over can I copy that? And we're rolling over can I copy that? And we're rolling over a new church philosophy every 15 months. a new church philosophy every 15 months. a new church philosophy every 15 months. I can't keep doing it anymore and my I can't keep doing it anymore and my I can't keep doing it anymore and my wife is no longer happy with the wife is no longer happy with the wife is no longer happy with the ministry and she thinks it's sucking the ministry and she thinks it's sucking the ministry and she thinks it's sucking the oxygen out of me and we have no useful oxygen out of me and we have no useful oxygen out of me and we have no useful time together. She's caught up with her time together. She's caught up with her time together. She's caught up with her job and her the children and and it it's job and her the children and and it it's job and her the children and and it it's just not working." That's a 38-year-old just not working." That's a 38-year-old just not working." That's a 38-year-old talking. talking. talking. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> The 48-year-old is saying, >> The 48-year-old is saying, >> The 48-year-old is saying, "I think it's all passing me by. "I think it's all passing me by. "I think it's all passing me by. Um Um Um I think they're going for younger men I think they're going for younger men I think they're going for younger men and women now and women now and women now and I'm not sure I understand and I'm not sure I understand and I'm not sure I understand um what it is that the church is trying um what it is that the church is trying um what it is that the church is trying to accomplish anymore. to accomplish anymore. to accomplish anymore. I remember the first times that I began I remember the first times that I began I remember the first times that I began to face the new contemporary music. to face the new contemporary music. to face the new contemporary music. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I liked it. Uh I could see why >> And I liked it. Uh I could see why >> And I liked it. Uh I could see why younger people wanted to do it.

younger people wanted to do it. younger people wanted to do it. But my songs were It is well with my But my songs were It is well with my But my songs were It is well with my soul and Holy, Holy, Holy. That's Those soul and Holy, Holy, Holy. That's Those soul and Holy, Holy, Holy. That's Those are the songs I had the tears. And at 48 are the songs I had the tears. And at 48 are the songs I had the tears. And at 48 I felt like I was slowly beginning to I felt like I was slowly beginning to I felt like I was slowly beginning to lose my my purchase of authority and lose my my purchase of authority and lose my my purchase of authority and experience. experience. experience. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Then at 62 >> Then at 62 >> Then at 62 um fear sets in. um fear sets in. um fear sets in. Um Um Um When I was I made a decision in my life When I was I made a decision in my life When I was I made a decision in my life that at the age of 60 I was going to that at the age of 60 I was going to that at the age of 60 I was going to step away from institutional leadership. step away from institutional leadership. step away from institutional leadership. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> One of the best decisions I'd ever made. >> One of the best decisions I'd ever made. >> One of the best decisions I'd ever made. And and one of the things that And and one of the things that And and one of the things that encouraged it was I began to become I encouraged it was I began to become I encouraged it was I began to become I could I could I could see younger staff could I could I could see younger staff could I could I could see younger staff members down the table and I'd say members down the table and I'd say members down the table and I'd say something and one of the one of them something and one of the one of them something and one of the one of them would roll their eyes like this, you would roll their eyes like this, you would roll their eyes like this, you >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You old guys >> You old guys >> You old guys pontificating again. pontificating again. pontificating again. And I thought, you know, 5 years from And I thought, you know, 5 years from And I thought, you know, 5 years from now this will be serious. now this will be serious. now this will be serious. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They'll be wondering, when's he going to >> They'll be wondering, when's he going to >> They'll be wondering, when's he going to retire? You know, when can we get a retire? You know, when can we get a retire? You know, when can we get a younger person in here? And and the younger person in here? And and the younger person in here? And and the women are saying, when are we going to women are saying, when are we going to women are saying, when are we going to get a woman pastor? And get a woman pastor? And get a woman pastor? And there were a lot of those change there were a lot of those change there were a lot of those change questions being asked and Gail and I questions being asked and Gail and I questions being asked and Gail and I started talking about this when I was started talking about this when I was started talking about this when I was about 55.

about 55. about 55. And and that that was part of our plan. And and that that was part of our plan. And and that that was part of our plan. We're going to step away from this at 60 We're going to step away from this at 60 We're going to step away from this at 60 and leave a vacant space for the younger and leave a vacant space for the younger and leave a vacant space for the younger generation to come in with its music, generation to come in with its music, generation to come in with its music, with its themes. It's way of doing with its themes. It's way of doing with its themes. It's way of doing things. things. things. >> That's interesting. I picked 55 and I >> That's interesting. I picked 55 and I >> That's interesting. I picked 55 and I went at 50 4 years ago. So, I'm 54 now. went at 50 4 years ago. So, I'm 54 now. went at 50 4 years ago. So, I'm 54 now. And when I was in my early 40s, I said And when I was in my early 40s, I said And when I was in my early 40s, I said at 55 I'm going to step away from I at 55 I'm going to step away from I at 55 I'm going to step away from I didn't call it institutional leadership, didn't call it institutional leadership, didn't call it institutional leadership, but that's but that's but that's basically, I'm not going to be the lead basically, I'm not going to be the lead basically, I'm not going to be the lead pastor anymore and I went at 50. Why was pastor anymore and I went at 50. Why was pastor anymore and I went at 50. Why was that I know my reasons, but I'm curious that I know my reasons, but I'm curious that I know my reasons, but I'm curious why you you said a little bit around it why you you said a little bit around it why you you said a little bit around it that you were becoming different, but that you were becoming different, but that you were becoming different, but why did you pick 60? why did you pick 60? why did you pick 60? >> Well, I'm spinning a lot of theories >> Well, I'm spinning a lot of theories >> Well, I'm spinning a lot of theories with you. with you. with you. >> This is great. I love this. I live in >> This is great. I love this. I live in >> This is great. I love this. I live in this world. this world. this world. >> Um >> Um >> Um I I feel, Jerry, I I feel, Jerry, I I feel, Jerry, that almost all of us leaders, with a that almost all of us leaders, with a that almost all of us leaders, with a few exceptions, probably have about a 20 few exceptions, probably have about a 20 few exceptions, probably have about a 20 to 25-year time slot to 25-year time slot to 25-year time slot when we can really push our giftedness when we can really push our giftedness when we can really push our giftedness to its limits.

to its limits. to its limits. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But by the time we get upwards towards >> But by the time we get upwards towards >> But by the time we get upwards towards 60, 60, 60, um our time slot is beginning to grow um our time slot is beginning to grow um our time slot is beginning to grow old and rusty. old and rusty. old and rusty. And if you look down through the the And if you look down through the the And if you look down through the the decades now, um it would seem like the decades now, um it would seem like the decades now, um it would seem like the church goes through a cultural change church goes through a cultural change church goes through a cultural change about every 20 to 25 years. about every 20 to 25 years. about every 20 to 25 years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I decided I wasn't going to kid >> And I decided I wasn't going to kid >> And I decided I wasn't going to kid myself, even though I thought of myself myself, even though I thought of myself myself, even though I thought of myself as young spirited at the age of 58 or as young spirited at the age of 58 or as young spirited at the age of 58 or 59, 59, 59, the truth of the matter was people saw the truth of the matter was people saw the truth of the matter was people saw me differently. me differently. me differently. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And you know, I I would I needed to listen you know, I I would I needed to listen you know, I I would I needed to listen with with acute ears with with acute ears with with acute ears to what's going on. So, to what's going on. So, to what's going on. So, that's the first thing that it came to that's the first thing that it came to that's the first thing that it came to me is that you know, each generation has me is that you know, each generation has me is that you know, each generation has its time. its time. its time. Um the the second thing I just I thought Um the the second thing I just I thought Um the the second thing I just I thought about was about was about was if I wait till 65 to step away from if I wait till 65 to step away from if I wait till 65 to step away from leadership, I probably will have lost leadership, I probably will have lost leadership, I probably will have lost most of my courage to ever lead anything most of my courage to ever lead anything most of my courage to ever lead anything again or to do anything again. Where at again or to do anything again. Where at again or to do anything again. Where at 60, 60, 60, I've still got enough I've still got enough I've still got enough muscle and energy and enthusiasm to go muscle and energy and enthusiasm to go muscle and energy and enthusiasm to go on and try something new. Um you know, on and try something new. Um you know, on and try something new. Um you know, for me it was to considerable extent a for me it was to considerable extent a for me it was to considerable extent a life as a writer, um the life as a a life as a writer, um the life as a a life as a writer, um the life as a a mentor to leaders and pastors.

mentor to leaders and pastors. mentor to leaders and pastors. And um And um And um and then they need to fool around a and then they need to fool around a and then they need to fool around a little bit in the business world. You little bit in the business world. You little bit in the business world. You know, could I take the gospel framework know, could I take the gospel framework know, could I take the gospel framework and put it into language and vocabulary and put it into language and vocabulary and put it into language and vocabulary that would make sense to men and women that would make sense to men and women that would make sense to men and women in the business world who weren't in the business world who weren't in the business world who weren't following Christ. following Christ. following Christ. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I fooled with that idea and I don't >> And I fooled with that idea and I don't >> And I fooled with that idea and I don't think I would have had the courage to think I would have had the courage to think I would have had the courage to try that at 65. So, what I think I did try that at 65. So, what I think I did try that at 65. So, what I think I did was I added and and this is this is just was I added and and this is this is just was I added and and this is this is just the human in me speaking. I added the human in me speaking. I added the human in me speaking. I added probably 28 to 30 years to my life probably 28 to 30 years to my life probably 28 to 30 years to my life by dropping out of active pastoral by dropping out of active pastoral by dropping out of active pastoral ministry at the time that I did. ministry at the time that I did. ministry at the time that I did. I'm 80 [snorts] now I'm 80 [snorts] now I'm 80 [snorts] now and and and I'm still pretty full time occupied with I'm still pretty full time occupied with I'm still pretty full time occupied with what what I think God has called me to what what I think God has called me to what what I think God has called me to do. And I felt like in the last years do. And I felt like in the last years do. And I felt like in the last years that God gave me a fresh new call, that God gave me a fresh new call, that God gave me a fresh new call, um um um which has been very powerful to me. which has been very powerful to me. which has been very powerful to me. >> What is that call? >> Um >> Um I have to tell you at the age of 64 when I have to tell you at the age of 64 when I have to tell you at the age of 64 when I was I you know, I wrote for a number I was I you know, I wrote for a number I was I you know, I wrote for a number of years for Leadership Journal which of years for Leadership Journal which of years for Leadership Journal which I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure >> Yes. Yeah, I used to read it.

>> Yes. Yeah, I used to read it. >> Yes. Yeah, I used to read it. >> And what And [clears throat] my editor >> And what And [clears throat] my editor >> And what And [clears throat] my editor asked me if I would do a piece on call. asked me if I would do a piece on call. asked me if I would do a piece on call. So, I wrote the thing. So, I wrote the thing. So, I wrote the thing. Which wasn't hard to do because the Which wasn't hard to do because the Which wasn't hard to do because the standard biblical message on call is one standard biblical message on call is one standard biblical message on call is one we probably all subscribe to. we probably all subscribe to. we probably all subscribe to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But when I mailed or when I pushed the >> But when I mailed or when I pushed the >> But when I mailed or when I pushed the send button send button send button I felt really dissatisfied with my own I felt really dissatisfied with my own I felt really dissatisfied with my own writing and I thought writing and I thought writing and I thought my call my call my call My call came when I was about 14 or 15. My call came when I was about 14 or 15. My call came when I was about 14 or 15. I don't even think about my call I don't even think about my call I don't even think about my call anymore. It It has no real traction in anymore. It It has no real traction in anymore. It It has no real traction in my life. I just do what I do because my life. I just do what I do because my life. I just do what I do because I've always been doing it and I like I've always been doing it and I like I've always been doing it and I like doing it and I can't do anything else. doing it and I can't do anything else. doing it and I can't do anything else. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I I began to pray and I And my >> And I I began to pray and I And my >> And I I began to pray and I And my prayer was Lord prayer was Lord prayer was Lord do you have a fresh call for a do you have a fresh call for a do you have a fresh call for a 64-year-old man? I've never heard 64-year-old man? I've never heard 64-year-old man? I've never heard anybody in their 60s say they have a anybody in their 60s say they have a anybody in their 60s say they have a brand new call. I just never heard it. brand new call. I just never heard it. brand new call. I just never heard it. So, is that possible because I I can't So, is that possible because I I can't So, is that possible because I I can't find anything in the Bible that find anything in the Bible that find anything in the Bible that instructs me about that. And so I kept instructs me about that. And so I kept instructs me about that. And so I kept praying week after week. Lord, is there praying week after week. Lord, is there praying week after week. Lord, is there a new call out there?

a new call out there? a new call out there? Then I went to Germany for about 10 days Then I went to Germany for about 10 days Then I went to Germany for about 10 days to speak each day in a different city to to speak each day in a different city to to speak each day in a different city to pastors. pastors. pastors. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> And after several of those days at the >> And after several of those days at the >> And after several of those days at the end of the day some of the young German end of the day some of the young German end of the day some of the young German pastors would pastors would pastors would come up who could speak English and they come up who could speak English and they come up who could speak English and they would say um would say um would say um You talked to us today like a father. You talked to us today like a father. You talked to us today like a father. Well, what do you mean by that? I'd ask. Well, what do you mean by that? I'd ask. Well, what do you mean by that? I'd ask. Well, the old German theologians and Well, the old German theologians and Well, the old German theologians and pastors they shout. They lecture us. pastors they shout. They lecture us. pastors they shout. They lecture us. They talk about philosophy, about the They talk about philosophy, about the They talk about philosophy, about the history of theology. history of theology. history of theology. But they never open their hearts to us. But they never open their hearts to us. But they never open their hearts to us. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> They never tell us their stories. >> They never tell us their stories. >> They never tell us their stories. And that's what you did today. You told And that's what you did today. You told And that's what you did today. You told us your story and us your story and us your story and where you hurt and where you failed and where you hurt and where you failed and where you hurt and where you failed and where God blessed you. And that's what where God blessed you. And that's what where God blessed you. And that's what we younger people need so badly. we younger people need so badly. we younger people need so badly. Please keep doing that. Please keep doing that. Please keep doing that. So, So, So, I went home to the US and out to I went home to the US and out to I went home to the US and out to California to do another one of these California to do another one of these California to do another one of these conferences for Asian pastors. conferences for Asian pastors. conferences for Asian pastors. And after the two days, the host stood And after the two days, the host stood And after the two days, the host stood up to thank me and he said, up to thank me and he said, up to thank me and he said, um um um "It's been such a good time with Gordon.

"It's been such a good time with Gordon. "It's been such a good time with Gordon. I've had tears in my eyes almost the I've had tears in my eyes almost the I've had tears in my eyes almost the whole time he's been speaking." whole time he's been speaking." whole time he's been speaking." And he said, "You may wonder where the And he said, "You may wonder where the And he said, "You may wonder where the tears came. They're tears came. They're tears came. They're they're not because he's that bad a they're not because he's that bad a they're not because he's that bad a speaker. speaker. speaker. Uh Uh Uh but the tears came because I thought I but the tears came because I thought I but the tears came because I thought I was hearing the voice of a father." was hearing the voice of a father." was hearing the voice of a father." And the Holy Spirit, And the Holy Spirit, And the Holy Spirit, as it were, kind of came on me at that as it were, kind of came on me at that as it were, kind of came on me at that moment and I don't say these words very moment and I don't say these words very moment and I don't say these words very often. often. often. But I felt like I heard heaven say to But I felt like I heard heaven say to But I felt like I heard heaven say to me, "You wanted a fresh call? me, "You wanted a fresh call? me, "You wanted a fresh call? You've got it. Just spend the rest of You've got it. Just spend the rest of You've got it. Just spend the rest of your life being a father to men and your life being a father to men and your life being a father to men and women of leadership." women of leadership." women of leadership." That's a great call. That's a great call. That's a great call. You never run out of customers. You never run out of customers. You never run out of customers. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I get out of bed almost every morning >> I get out of bed almost every morning >> I get out of bed almost every morning and one of the first questions I'm and one of the first questions I'm and one of the first questions I'm asking myself is, asking myself is, asking myself is, "Who will I get to be a father to "Who will I get to be a father to "Who will I get to be a father to today?" today?" today?" And often when I speak to a group I've And often when I speak to a group I've And often when I speak to a group I've never met before, never met before, never met before, and you get up after the introduction and you get up after the introduction and you get up after the introduction and I'll I'll say, and I'll I'll say, and I'll I'll say, "I've been looking at all of you "I've been looking at all of you "I've been looking at all of you and I've made a discovery that's and I've made a discovery that's and I've made a discovery that's bothersome.

bothersome. bothersome. I'm the oldest person in this room by I'm the oldest person in this room by I'm the oldest person in this room by many years." many years." many years." And everybody laughs, of course, at And everybody laughs, of course, at And everybody laughs, of course, at that. And after they quiet down, so you that. And after they quiet down, so you that. And after they quiet down, so you say, say, say, "Well, since I'm the oldest person in "Well, since I'm the oldest person in "Well, since I'm the oldest person in the room, the room, the room, let me talk to you like a father." let me talk to you like a father." let me talk to you like a father." And the room goes dead instantly. Every And the room goes dead instantly. Every And the room goes dead instantly. Every person person person is on the edge of their chair. Reason? is on the edge of their chair. Reason? is on the edge of their chair. Reason? Because the new generation desperately Because the new generation desperately Because the new generation desperately needs a father. needs a father. needs a father. And when it's all over and the day's And when it's all over and the day's And when it's all over and the day's over, it's amazing how many people will over, it's amazing how many people will over, it's amazing how many people will come up afterwards. come up afterwards. come up afterwards. "Thank you for being a father to me "Thank you for being a father to me "Thank you for being a father to me today. Thank you for talking like a today. Thank you for talking like a today. Thank you for talking like a father. I needed to hear that." So, father. I needed to hear that." So, father. I needed to hear that." So, that's my fresh call. that's my fresh call. that's my fresh call. And um to this day And um to this day And um to this day uh my experience is as long as I'm uh my experience is as long as I'm uh my experience is as long as I'm willing to be a father, I don't have to willing to be a father, I don't have to willing to be a father, I don't have to run things, I don't have to bore you run things, I don't have to bore you run things, I don't have to bore you with my stories, I don't have to prove with my stories, I don't have to prove with my stories, I don't have to prove myself. myself. myself. I'm just here to encourage you as a I'm just here to encourage you as a I'm just here to encourage you as a father would encourage his son or father would encourage his son or father would encourage his son or daughter. daughter. daughter. >> What does the next generation need to >> What does the next generation need to >> What does the next generation need to hear from a father?

>> Well, first of all, it it needs to hear >> Well, first of all, it it needs to hear that they are loved that they are loved that they are loved and respected. and respected. and respected. Um that God has great things for them if Um that God has great things for them if Um that God has great things for them if they will they will they will stay on track and don't go off the stay on track and don't go off the stay on track and don't go off the rails. rails. rails. They They need to hear from a father who They They need to hear from a father who They They need to hear from a father who may not like everything they do, may not like everything they do, may not like everything they do, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> but nevertheless will say, >> but nevertheless will say, >> but nevertheless will say, "When you're in motion, I see the life "When you're in motion, I see the life "When you're in motion, I see the life of God in you." And to hear that affirmation, And to hear that affirmation, most young men and women, most young men and women, most young men and women, you know, will kill to hear someone say you know, will kill to hear someone say you know, will kill to hear someone say something like that. something like that. something like that. Um Um Um I try hard not to I try hard not to I try hard not to correct people unless they ask me for correct people unless they ask me for correct people unless they ask me for the correction. I try hard not to give the correction. I try hard not to give the correction. I try hard not to give advice advice advice unless someone asks me to give the unless someone asks me to give the unless someone asks me to give the advice. advice. advice. Um Um Um In the right sort of context, I I I will In the right sort of context, I I I will In the right sort of context, I I I will on occasion rebuke somebody. on occasion rebuke somebody. on occasion rebuke somebody. But um I think those are things younger But um I think those are things younger But um I think those are things younger generations need to hear.

generations need to hear. generations need to hear. >> So, it's encouragement. It's >> So, it's encouragement. It's >> So, it's encouragement. It's affirmation. affirmation. affirmation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Even if you yourself don't like it or Even if you yourself don't like it or Even if you yourself don't like it or understand it. There's a lot of things understand it. There's a lot of things understand it. There's a lot of things this younger generation is doing this younger generation is doing this younger generation is doing that I don't understand that I don't understand that I don't understand and if you promise not to tell anybody, and if you promise not to tell anybody, and if you promise not to tell anybody, I don't even like. I don't even like. I don't even like. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But then But then I'm then it's like the >> But then But then I'm then it's like the >> But then But then I'm then it's like the spirit of God says to me, spirit of God says to me, spirit of God says to me, "You know, your father didn't like what "You know, your father didn't like what "You know, your father didn't like what you were doing, either." you were doing, either." you were doing, either." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I realized I was always >> And then I realized I was always >> And then I realized I was always rebelling against the older generation. rebelling against the older generation. rebelling against the older generation. I was always convinced that if they I was always convinced that if they I was always convinced that if they would give me half a chance, I could would give me half a chance, I could would give me half a chance, I could preach a better sermon. preach a better sermon. preach a better sermon. So, So, So, that that causes me to quiet down. that that causes me to quiet down. that that causes me to quiet down. >> In ordering your private world, now I >> In ordering your private world, now I >> In ordering your private world, now I want to I want to come back to want to I want to come back to want to I want to come back to mentoring, but I don't want to lose this mentoring, but I don't want to lose this mentoring, but I don't want to lose this thought. You talked about, if I my thought. You talked about, if I my thought. You talked about, if I my memory serves me correct, the difference memory serves me correct, the difference memory serves me correct, the difference between driven leadership and called between driven leadership and called between driven leadership and called leadership. So, for the pastors and for leadership. So, for the pastors and for leadership. So, for the pastors and for the marketplace business leaders the marketplace business leaders the marketplace business leaders listening, listening, listening, can you describe a little bit about what can you describe a little bit about what can you describe a little bit about what a driven cuz I saw myself in that a driven cuz I saw myself in that a driven cuz I saw myself in that writing as again, 32 to 42, very driven, writing as again, 32 to 42, very driven, writing as again, 32 to 42, very driven, hopefully more recently a little more hopefully more recently a little more hopefully more recently a little more called.

called. called. Can you play that out a little bit? I Can you play that out a little bit? I Can you play that out a little bit? I think that's a really important think that's a really important think that's a really important distinction. distinction. distinction. >> Well, drivenness is probably the doorway >> Well, drivenness is probably the doorway >> Well, drivenness is probably the doorway to leadership for a huge percentage of to leadership for a huge percentage of to leadership for a huge percentage of men and women who become influencers as men and women who become influencers as men and women who become influencers as the years go by. the years go by. the years go by. Drivenness is all about naked ambition. Drivenness is all about naked ambition. Drivenness is all about naked ambition. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's about >> It's about >> It's about trying to please somebody in your life trying to please somebody in your life trying to please somebody in your life that you feel is important to you. You that you feel is important to you. You that you feel is important to you. You know, for me, know, for me, know, for me, even though my father had his back to even though my father had his back to even though my father had his back to me, I was always trying to get his me, I was always trying to get his me, I was always trying to get his attention. attention. attention. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I dreamed of the day when he would >> I dreamed of the day when he would >> I dreamed of the day when he would come around the corner and say, "Son, come around the corner and say, "Son, come around the corner and say, "Son, I I never told you this, but I am so I I never told you this, but I am so I I never told you this, but I am so proud of you. I am so delighted proud of you. I am so delighted proud of you. I am so delighted with the hand of God on you." with the hand of God on you." with the hand of God on you." My father never could do that because as My father never could do that because as My father never could do that because as a young man, I began to preach to larger a young man, I began to preach to larger a young man, I began to preach to larger congregations. congregations. congregations. I was the one to write books that he I was the one to write books that he I was the one to write books that he wanted to write, but couldn't. wanted to write, but couldn't. wanted to write, but couldn't. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I was the person who was invited to some >> I was the person who was invited to some >> I was the person who was invited to some privileged positions of leadership that privileged positions of leadership that privileged positions of leadership that he never got.

he never got. he never got. So, my father saw me as a threat. So, my father saw me as a threat. So, my father saw me as a threat. And I, on the other hand, was always And I, on the other hand, was always And I, on the other hand, was always trying to say to him, you know, "Look at trying to say to him, you know, "Look at trying to say to him, you know, "Look at me." me." me." You know, You know, You know, "Affirm, please, "Affirm, please, "Affirm, please, that that God's hand is on me." I would that that God's hand is on me." I would that that God's hand is on me." I would rather hear that from my father than a rather hear that from my father than a rather hear that from my father than a thousand strangers. thousand strangers. thousand strangers. So, drivenness is all part of that. Um So, drivenness is all part of that. Um So, drivenness is all part of that. Um drivenness is often drivenness is often drivenness is often comes out of anger. Mhm. I meet a lot of comes out of anger. Mhm. I meet a lot of comes out of anger. Mhm. I meet a lot of preachers preachers preachers who really are preaching out of anger. who really are preaching out of anger. who really are preaching out of anger. And um And um And um and and and and I think that would be the second and I think that would be the second and I think that would be the second level of feeling like you have to prove level of feeling like you have to prove level of feeling like you have to prove something. something. something. Um Um Um I think I think I think there's a lot of men and women who enter there's a lot of men and women who enter there's a lot of men and women who enter into nonprofit leadership into nonprofit leadership into nonprofit leadership um um um that failed to make it in the larger that failed to make it in the larger that failed to make it in the larger profit-making world. profit-making world. profit-making world. And um you know, this became their And um you know, this became their And um you know, this became their you know, I can't do anything else, so you know, I can't do anything else, so you know, I can't do anything else, so I'll do this. So, I'm going to Here I I'll do this. So, I'm going to Here I I'll do this. So, I'm going to Here I am. am. am. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've been meaning to talk to you. >> I've been meaning to talk to you. >> I've been meaning to talk to you. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. >> But I you know, I I was a driven person. >> But I you know, I I was a driven person. >> But I you know, I I was a driven person. And I've already [clears throat] in And I've already [clears throat] in And I've already [clears throat] in effect said that to you. I was a driven effect said that to you. I was a driven effect said that to you. I was a driven person. person. person. And uh And uh And uh Saul in the Old Testament, the first Saul in the Old Testament, the first Saul in the Old Testament, the first Israel king, Israel king, Israel king, was a driven person among others. was a driven person among others. was a driven person among others. So, there comes a moment where you have So, there comes a moment where you have So, there comes a moment where you have to convert from drivenness to calmness. to convert from drivenness to calmness. to convert from drivenness to calmness. And for me, that came at about the age And for me, that came at about the age And for me, that came at about the age of 31. of 31. of 31. Um Um Um in going through just a in going through just a in going through just a um a moment of of um a moment of of um a moment of of you know, I I don't know whether you you know, I I don't know whether you you know, I I don't know whether you want to call it burnout. I don't I'm not want to call it burnout. I don't I'm not want to call it burnout. I don't I'm not sure I like that word. sure I like that word. sure I like that word. But there was a moment when everything But there was a moment when everything But there was a moment when everything for several weeks just went wrong in my for several weeks just went wrong in my for several weeks just went wrong in my journey. journey. journey. And I saw no way out. And I saw no way out. And I saw no way out. And uh on a Saturday morning, everything And uh on a Saturday morning, everything And uh on a Saturday morning, everything hit the fan. hit the fan. hit the fan. And Gail finally said to me, And Gail finally said to me, And Gail finally said to me, "Um I I you to take a look at your "Um I I you to take a look at your "Um I I you to take a look at your schedule for the last 6 or 8 weeks and schedule for the last 6 or 8 weeks and schedule for the last 6 or 8 weeks and ask yourself is this the way we're going ask yourself is this the way we're going ask yourself is this the way we're going to live for the rest of our lives to live for the rest of our lives to live for the rest of our lives because this is not what I signed up because this is not what I signed up because this is not what I signed up for.

for. for. And my response cuz she was right. She And my response cuz she was right. She And my response cuz she was right. She was dead right. was dead right. was dead right. My response was to just dissolve into My response was to just dissolve into My response was to just dissolve into wretching and tearing and crying. wretching and tearing and crying. wretching and tearing and crying. And for the better part of the day And for the better part of the day And for the better part of the day I just cried and cried and cried I just cried and cried and cried I just cried and cried and cried and to this day I'm not sure I know and to this day I'm not sure I know and to this day I'm not sure I know what was behind all those tears. Was it what was behind all those tears. Was it what was behind all those tears. Was it the frustration of the previous weeks? the frustration of the previous weeks? the frustration of the previous weeks? Was it the tears of a childhood that had Was it the tears of a childhood that had Was it the tears of a childhood that had been very unhappy? been very unhappy? been very unhappy? Uh was it my failure Uh was it my failure Uh was it my failure to have ever made it with my dad? I I to have ever made it with my dad? I I to have ever made it with my dad? I I don't know if that was all just coming don't know if that was all just coming don't know if that was all just coming out like a volcano or or what. out like a volcano or or what. out like a volcano or or what. But at the end of the day there came a But at the end of the day there came a But at the end of the day there came a moment when when I had to say what's the moment when when I had to say what's the moment when when I had to say what's the message in all this. message in all this. message in all this. And I I've already mentioned once this And I I've already mentioned once this And I I've already mentioned once this is probably the second time I felt I is probably the second time I felt I is probably the second time I felt I heard God speak and the words were now heard God speak and the words were now heard God speak and the words were now you know what it's like to live out of you know what it's like to live out of you know what it's like to live out of an empty soul. an empty soul. an empty soul. And I realized that this fundamentalism And I realized that this fundamentalism And I realized that this fundamentalism that I'd grown up in even my seminary that I'd grown up in even my seminary that I'd grown up in even my seminary training which had been great education training which had been great education training which had been great education nobody had ever effectively nobody had ever effectively nobody had ever effectively acquainted me acquainted me acquainted me with the space inside of each one of us with the space inside of each one of us with the space inside of each one of us which I believe is as large a space as which I believe is as large a space as which I believe is as large a space as outer space is.

outer space is. outer space is. Nobody had ever taught me how to treat Nobody had ever taught me how to treat Nobody had ever taught me how to treat that space and how to occupy it and how that space and how to occupy it and how that space and how to occupy it and how to meet the Lord Jesus there. to meet the Lord Jesus there. to meet the Lord Jesus there. And that's when And that's when And that's when another conversion in effect happened another conversion in effect happened another conversion in effect happened and I began to ask for the first time and I began to ask for the first time and I began to ask for the first time how do you fill your soul and keep it how do you fill your soul and keep it how do you fill your soul and keep it filled? And OPW Ordering Your Private filled? And OPW Ordering Your Private filled? And OPW Ordering Your Private World comes out of that experience. It World comes out of that experience. It World comes out of that experience. It It's the triggering experience which a It's the triggering experience which a It's the triggering experience which a few years later few years later few years later um caused me to write that book. And by um caused me to write that book. And by um caused me to write that book. And by the way, I wrote it in a very, very the way, I wrote it in a very, very the way, I wrote it in a very, very quick amount of time. quick amount of time. quick amount of time. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> So, it's always amazed me that anybody >> So, it's always amazed me that anybody >> So, it's always amazed me that anybody has ever read it. has ever read it. has ever read it. >> It's sold a crazy amount of copies, >> It's sold a crazy amount of copies, >> It's sold a crazy amount of copies, hasn't it, over the years? hasn't it, over the years? hasn't it, over the years? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, uh you know, it has a revi- This is a uh you know, it has a revi- This is a uh you know, it has a revi- This is a It's in its fourth revision now. And I It's in its fourth revision now. And I It's in its fourth revision now. And I had to bring it up to date with all the had to bring it up to date with all the had to bring it up to date with all the technology and stuff. technology and stuff. technology and stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was it was like if I remember, Yeah, it was it was like if I remember, Yeah, it was it was like if I remember, it had some DOS prompts in it back in it had some DOS prompts in it back in it had some DOS prompts in it back in the '80s or whatever, the '80s or whatever, the '80s or whatever, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> You have counseled a lot of people. So, >> You have counseled a lot of people. So, >> You have counseled a lot of people. So, we're here we're here we're here with Josh Gagnon, who I'm going to with Josh Gagnon, who I'm going to with Josh Gagnon, who I'm going to interview later today, and he's a young, interview later today, and he's a young, interview later today, and he's a young, under 40 pastor of a very large, under 40 pastor of a very large, under 40 pastor of a very large, remarkable remarkable remarkable um um um >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> church here in Nashua, right? >> church here in Nashua, right? >> church here in Nashua, right? >> happening. >> happening. >> happening. >> You have, and as a New Englander >> You have, and as a New Englander >> You have, and as a New Englander >> understand we're New Englanders. >> understand we're New Englanders. >> understand we're New Englanders. >> Absolutely. I mean, you led in Boston >> Absolutely. I mean, you led in Boston >> Absolutely. I mean, you led in Boston for a number of years, and this kind of for a number of years, and this kind of for a number of years, and this kind of story doesn't often get written in New story doesn't often get written in New story doesn't often get written in New England. England. England. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Can you talk about your relationship >> Can you talk about your relationship >> Can you talk about your relationship with Josh, and what that's like? >> Well, I hope he won't mind my saying >> Well, I hope he won't mind my saying this, but um this, but um this, but um Josh is like a son Josh is like a son Josh is like a son >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> um to an older man. >> um to an older man. >> um to an older man. And uh And uh And uh you you you he's a very lovable man, and he's a very lovable man, and he's a very lovable man, and one of the most uh one of the most uh one of the most uh unique things about Josh Gagnon unique things about Josh Gagnon unique things about Josh Gagnon is his teachability. is his teachability. is his teachability. Um I've known very, very few people in Um I've known very, very few people in Um I've known very, very few people in my life who are more open. my life who are more open. my life who are more open. I mean, I hope this sounds okay. He'll I mean, I hope this sounds okay. He'll I mean, I hope this sounds okay. He'll sit and listen to you for year for hours sit and listen to you for year for hours sit and listen to you for year for hours if you're willing to talk for hours. if you're willing to talk for hours. if you're willing to talk for hours. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um most people, you know, will give you >> Um most people, you know, will give you >> Um most people, you know, will give you 40 minutes, and that's it. 40 minutes, and that's it. 40 minutes, and that's it. So, I find in him a a ready spirit, a So, I find in him a a ready spirit, a So, I find in him a a ready spirit, a humble spirit, humble spirit, humble spirit, and I find a man who's ready to be and I find a man who's ready to be and I find a man who's ready to be transparent, transparent, transparent, and to talk not only out of his joy and to talk not only out of his joy and to talk not only out of his joy and the power in his life, but also to and the power in his life, but also to and the power in his life, but also to talk to you about the the painfulness of talk to you about the the painfulness of talk to you about the the painfulness of life.

life. life. So, that and that causes the re you So, that and that causes the re you So, that and that causes the re you know, when when you meet somebody like know, when when you meet somebody like know, when when you meet somebody like that and they that and they that and they they keep coming back to you. they keep coming back to you. they keep coming back to you. Um little bit by little Um little bit by little Um little bit by little something closer than a friendship something closer than a friendship something closer than a friendship begins to happen. begins to happen. begins to happen. And uh you you don't waste time talking And uh you you don't waste time talking And uh you you don't waste time talking to each other. It's It's not a to each other. It's It's not a to each other. It's It's not a conversation about the Red Sox or conversation about the Red Sox or conversation about the Red Sox or something going on in Washington. something going on in Washington. something going on in Washington. Um but it's it's deep-spirited content Um but it's it's deep-spirited content Um but it's it's deep-spirited content that's aimed at helping both of us to that's aimed at helping both of us to that's aimed at helping both of us to appreciate Jesus more. appreciate Jesus more. appreciate Jesus more. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. You've also counseled at least one You've also counseled at least one You've also counseled at least one president, perhaps uh more. president, perhaps uh more. president, perhaps uh more. >> enough. >> enough. >> enough. >> One's enough. >> One's enough. >> One's enough. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And that was uh Bill Clinton in the in >> And that was uh Bill Clinton in the in >> And that was uh Bill Clinton in the in the '90s. Um as and you've worked with a the '90s. Um as and you've worked with a the '90s. Um as and you've worked with a number of other very high-powered number of other very high-powered number of other very high-powered leaders. Uh what were leaders. Uh what were leaders. Uh what were um um um some things Bill Clinton says he read some things Bill Clinton says he read some things Bill Clinton says he read your book Rebuilding Your Broken World your book Rebuilding Your Broken World your book Rebuilding Your Broken World twice. Um a book I found very very twice. Um a book I found very very twice. Um a book I found very very uh powerful. And what um what is uh powerful. And what um what is uh powerful. And what um what is different in the world of most different in the world of most different in the world of most high-capacity leaders? I mean, if you're high-capacity leaders? I mean, if you're high-capacity leaders? I mean, if you're leading the free world or you're leading the free world or you're leading the free world or you're president of the United States or president of the United States or president of the United States or leading a very large church or company, leading a very large church or company, leading a very large church or company, um what is different and what is the um what is different and what is the um what is different and what is the same in those worlds?

same in those worlds? same in those worlds? The thing that's different and unique The thing that's different and unique The thing that's different and unique about about about coming into the lives of people like coming into the lives of people like coming into the lives of people like that is you realize very quickly how that is you realize very quickly how that is you realize very quickly how little freedom they have. little freedom they have. little freedom they have. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We We all have this notion, those of us >> We We all have this notion, those of us >> We We all have this notion, those of us who live at lower echelons of life, man, who live at lower echelons of life, man, who live at lower echelons of life, man, it would be nice to be president of this it would be nice to be president of this it would be nice to be president of this or that. I could you know, I'd have my or that. I could you know, I'd have my or that. I could you know, I'd have my own plane and I'd be able to do this. own plane and I'd be able to do this. own plane and I'd be able to do this. I'd be able to do that. I'd be able to do that. I'd be able to do that. Then you get into their lives and Then you get into their lives and Then you get into their lives and discover discover discover they're more chained up and held captive they're more chained up and held captive they're more chained up and held captive than almost anybody. Clinton used to than almost anybody. Clinton used to than almost anybody. Clinton used to love to say, and I think he was quoting love to say, and I think he was quoting love to say, and I think he was quoting somebody else, somebody else, somebody else, that the White House is the crown jewel that the White House is the crown jewel that the White House is the crown jewel of the American prison system. of the American prison system. of the American prison system. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh and for sure what he was talking about. and for sure what he was talking about. and for sure what he was talking about. I And I'll I'll give you one example I And I'll I'll give you one example I And I'll I'll give you one example which I I don't think is um a breach of which I I don't think is um a breach of which I I don't think is um a breach of confidentiality. confidentiality. confidentiality. Um Um Um I went I I I used to see him every I went I I I used to see him every I went I I I used to see him every second or third week and second or third week and second or third week and I went to see him one day and it was in I went to see him one day and it was in I went to see him one day and it was in the middle of of the the impeachment the middle of of the the impeachment the middle of of the the impeachment hearings.

hearings. hearings. And on the way down on the plane, I I And on the way down on the plane, I I And on the way down on the plane, I I had this idea. had this idea. had this idea. I wonder what it would be like if if I wonder what it would be like if if I wonder what it would be like if if Bill Clinton repented Bill Clinton repented Bill Clinton repented in words and in the depth that in words and in the depth that in words and in the depth that evangelicals are demanding from him. evangelicals are demanding from him. evangelicals are demanding from him. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because that was every every time he >> Because that was every every time he >> Because that was every every time he would take a step forward, my would take a step forward, my would take a step forward, my evangelical companions would say, "Well, evangelical companions would say, "Well, evangelical companions would say, "Well, he didn't repent deeply enough." he didn't repent deeply enough." he didn't repent deeply enough." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I would keep saying, "Well, how how >> And I would keep saying, "Well, how how >> And I would keep saying, "Well, how how deep does a person have to go the first deep does a person have to go the first deep does a person have to go the first time they repent?" time they repent?" time they repent?" Because we've all had to repent and Because we've all had to repent and Because we've all had to repent and repent repentance is like stair steps. repent repentance is like stair steps. repent repentance is like stair steps. Anyway, I wrote a speech for him. Anyway, I wrote a speech for him. Anyway, I wrote a speech for him. And when I got there and we sat down And when I got there and we sat down And when I got there and we sat down together in the Oval Office, I together in the Oval Office, I together in the Oval Office, I said to him, "I wrote a speech for you said to him, "I wrote a speech for you said to him, "I wrote a speech for you on the way down on the plane." on the way down on the plane." on the way down on the plane." He said, "Oh, what did you say?" He said, "Oh, what did you say?" He said, "Oh, what did you say?" I said, "Well, if I said, "Well, if I said, "Well, if I probably ought to wait because I think I probably ought to wait because I think I probably ought to wait because I think I would make you mad." I would make you mad." I would make you mad." He said, "I promise not to get mad. Read He said, "I promise not to get mad. Read He said, "I promise not to get mad. Read it to me." it to me." it to me." So I read the speech as if I was Bill So I read the speech as if I was Bill So I read the speech as if I was Bill Clinton. Clinton. Clinton. When I got through, he said uh When I got through, he said uh When I got through, he said uh "Could I have it?"

"Could I have it?" "Could I have it?" I said uh I said uh I said uh "No," I said, "it needs to be edited, "No," I said, "it needs to be edited, "No," I said, "it needs to be edited, stiffed up. It's just scroll on a legal stiffed up. It's just scroll on a legal stiffed up. It's just scroll on a legal pad." pad." pad." "Well, can you have it on my desk by "Well, can you have it on my desk by "Well, can you have it on my desk by 8:00 tomorrow morning?" 8:00 tomorrow morning?" 8:00 tomorrow morning?" "Yes, I can do that," I said. "Yes, I can do that," I said. "Yes, I can do that," I said. So I went home that afternoon, worked on So I went home that afternoon, worked on So I went home that afternoon, worked on it into the evening. it into the evening. it into the evening. The next morning about 6:30, the The next morning about 6:30, the The next morning about 6:30, the president's secretary's on the phone. president's secretary's on the phone. president's secretary's on the phone. "The president wants to know where the "The president wants to know where the "The president wants to know where the speech is." speech is." speech is." >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I said, "Betty, I'll have it on your >> I said, "Betty, I'll have it on your >> I said, "Betty, I'll have it on your desk by 9:00." She said, "Well, don't desk by 9:00." She said, "Well, don't desk by 9:00." She said, "Well, don't wait any further than that. And by the wait any further than that. And by the wait any further than that. And by the way, you may want to watch the way, you may want to watch the way, you may want to watch the television at night at 10:00 at 4:00 television at night at 10:00 at 4:00 television at night at 10:00 at 4:00 this afternoon." this afternoon." this afternoon." So, I got the speech facts down to the So, I got the speech facts down to the So, I got the speech facts down to the White House, and um White House, and um White House, and um at 4:00 we turn on the TV, and here's at 4:00 we turn on the TV, and here's at 4:00 we turn on the TV, and here's the president coming out of the Oval the president coming out of the Oval the president coming out of the Oval Office to the Rose Garden all by Office to the Rose Garden all by Office to the Rose Garden all by himself. himself. himself. Now, if you've watched Now, if you've watched Now, if you've watched if you've watched presidents in the Rose if you've watched presidents in the Rose if you've watched presidents in the Rose Garden, they're always surrounded by Garden, they're always surrounded by Garden, they're always surrounded by entourage. entourage. entourage. >> are. >> are. >> are. >> And uh but this time he was all alone.

>> And uh but this time he was all alone. >> And uh but this time he was all alone. And he was reflecting a story I told him And he was reflecting a story I told him And he was reflecting a story I told him about the King of England who repented about the King of England who repented about the King of England who repented and went to the and went to the and went to the uh cathedral uh at Canterbury to be to uh cathedral uh at Canterbury to be to uh cathedral uh at Canterbury to be to be absolved by the Archbishop. And he be absolved by the Archbishop. And he be absolved by the Archbishop. And he had to go alone. had to go alone. had to go alone. And the president had taken that that And the president had taken that that And the president had taken that that story very seriously, and he stood story very seriously, and he stood story very seriously, and he stood alone, and he read this speech alone, and he read this speech alone, and he read this speech which largely reflected the outline and which largely reflected the outline and which largely reflected the outline and the vocabulary that I used. the vocabulary that I used. the vocabulary that I used. Only problem was that it was laundered Only problem was that it was laundered Only problem was that it was laundered of all the frank directness that would of all the frank directness that would of all the frank directness that would have added up to this is truly a have added up to this is truly a have added up to this is truly a statement of repentance. statement of repentance. statement of repentance. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, it'd have been edited. >> So, it'd have been edited. >> So, it'd have been edited. >> It'd been edited, and that's where I was >> It'd been edited, and that's where I was >> It'd been edited, and that's where I was going with this story. It'd been edited going with this story. It'd been edited going with this story. It'd been edited by his political advisers, his by his political advisers, his by his political advisers, his congressional advisers, his lawyers, congressional advisers, his lawyers, congressional advisers, his lawyers, and uh and uh and uh some other group I forget. some other group I forget. some other group I forget. And little bit by little they had And little bit by little they had And little bit by little they had laundered the whole speech and reduced laundered the whole speech and reduced laundered the whole speech and reduced it to nothing.

it to nothing. it to nothing. And it made me realize how captive And it made me realize how captive And it made me realize how captive men and women in high leadership are men and women in high leadership are men and women in high leadership are because they can't make a choice or a because they can't make a choice or a because they can't make a choice or a decision in their lives without somebody decision in their lives without somebody decision in their lives without somebody from the outside interfering um and from the outside interfering um and from the outside interfering um and demanding that they be they exercise the demanding that they be they exercise the demanding that they be they exercise the responsibility uh in that case to the responsibility uh in that case to the responsibility uh in that case to the government uh or to a big organization government uh or to a big organization government uh or to a big organization or even a church. You or even a church. You or even a church. You You everything has got to be managed. You everything has got to be managed. You everything has got to be managed. Everything's got to be vetted. You know, Everything's got to be vetted. You know, Everything's got to be vetted. You know, does it pass the smell test of this, does it pass the smell test of this, does it pass the smell test of this, that, and the other thing. that, and the other thing. that, and the other thing. So, it was So, it was So, it was the president was often in a very the president was often in a very the president was often in a very difficult spot where if he was at one of difficult spot where if he was at one of difficult spot where if he was at one of those moments when he those moments when he those moments when he he really wanted to make right he really wanted to make right he really wanted to make right to the nation. to the nation. to the nation. Um Um Um it was questionable as to whether he it was questionable as to whether he it was questionable as to whether he could. could. could. And you know, now even as you and I sit And you know, now even as you and I sit And you know, now even as you and I sit and talk, we're in another not and talk, we're in another not and talk, we're in another not dissimilar situation. dissimilar situation. dissimilar situation. And um And um And um you know, no one knows where these you know, no one knows where these you know, no one knows where these political crises like they're political crises like they're political crises like they're experiencing in England and and and the experiencing in England and and and the experiencing in England and and and the US and US and US and and other places, you know, where do and other places, you know, where do and other places, you know, where do these go and how free is the person up these go and how free is the person up these go and how free is the person up top to make a decision? And top to make a decision? And top to make a decision? And you can only hope that they have good you can only hope that they have good you can only hope that they have good advisers come.

advisers come. advisers come. Um Um Um I I sat in the Oval Office two or three I I sat in the Oval Office two or three I I sat in the Oval Office two or three times when the president times when the president times when the president was faced in that moment made to make a was faced in that moment made to make a was faced in that moment made to make a decision about something out around the decision about something out around the decision about something out around the world that could involve the killing of world that could involve the killing of world that could involve the killing of people. I I watched a couple of these people. I I watched a couple of these people. I I watched a couple of these dramas unfold. dramas unfold. dramas unfold. And in one he was being asked to send And in one he was being asked to send And in one he was being asked to send some cruise missiles into a country and some cruise missiles into a country and some cruise missiles into a country and destroy some military bases. destroy some military bases. destroy some military bases. And he knew that hundreds of people And he knew that hundreds of people And he knew that hundreds of people might die. might die. might die. And the advisers were coming in every 5 And the advisers were coming in every 5 And the advisers were coming in every 5 minutes to update him minutes to update him minutes to update him on aspects of this decision. on aspects of this decision. on aspects of this decision. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And he finally turned to me and he said >> And he finally turned to me and he said >> And he finally turned to me and he said uh uh uh So, what would you do? So, what would you do? So, what would you do? And I mean, he wasn't asking my advice. And I mean, he wasn't asking my advice. And I mean, he wasn't asking my advice. It was just kind of one of those throw It was just kind of one of those throw It was just kind of one of those throw outs. outs. outs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And when I left, I I left shaken when I left, I I left shaken when I left, I I left shaken because I realized that um because I realized that um because I realized that um what would happen if I was asked to make what would happen if I was asked to make what would happen if I was asked to make a decision a decision a decision that would cost the lives of scores and that would cost the lives of scores and that would cost the lives of scores and scores of people.

scores of people. scores of people. Um this this is not a play school. Um this this is not a play school. Um this this is not a play school. And I just, you know, I just don't think And I just, you know, I just don't think And I just, you know, I just don't think that we in the public understand the that we in the public understand the that we in the public understand the pressures that are going on and how much pressures that are going on and how much pressures that are going on and how much character is needed on the part of the character is needed on the part of the character is needed on the part of the person who's in power person who's in power person who's in power to make right decisions and to accept to make right decisions and to accept to make right decisions and to accept the responsibilities. This can be a life the responsibilities. This can be a life the responsibilities. This can be a life or death decision I'm making. or death decision I'm making. or death decision I'm making. >> In >> In >> In Rebuilding Your Broken World, Rebuilding Your Broken World, Rebuilding Your Broken World, probably one of the most It was an probably one of the most It was an probably one of the most It was an incredible book. incredible book. incredible book. But probably one of the most remarkable But probably one of the most remarkable But probably one of the most remarkable parts I read, and I wanted to ask this parts I read, and I wanted to ask this parts I read, and I wanted to ask this question now because, you know, I don't question now because, you know, I don't question now because, you know, I don't know when this will air, but I promise know when this will air, but I promise know when this will air, but I promise you between the recording of this you between the recording of this you between the recording of this interview, there'll be another scandal. interview, there'll be another scandal. interview, there'll be another scandal. There'll be somebody else who's forced There'll be somebody else who's forced There'll be somebody else who's forced to resign to resign to resign because of a variety of things. It could because of a variety of things. It could because of a variety of things. It could be character, it could be whatever. be character, it could be whatever. be character, it could be whatever. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] And this happens in the church, this And this happens in the church, this And this happens in the church, this happens in the business world, this happens in the business world, this happens in the business world, this happens in the sport world, in the happens in the sport world, in the happens in the sport world, in the political arena, in almost every area of political arena, in almost every area of political arena, in almost every area of life. And life. And life. And you have a whole section you have a whole section you have a whole section on repentance, reconciliation, and on repentance, reconciliation, and on repentance, reconciliation, and restoration. And when I read that a restoration. And when I read that a restoration. And when I read that a couple years ago on my summer vacation, couple years ago on my summer vacation, couple years ago on my summer vacation, I was like, nobody is talking about it I was like, nobody is talking about it I was like, nobody is talking about it the way you talk about it and the way the way you talk about it and the way the way you talk about it and the way you lay it out. So, if you were you lay it out. So, if you were you lay it out. So, if you were advising, whether that's a president or, advising, whether that's a president or, advising, whether that's a president or, you know, a pastor or a politician or you know, a pastor or a politician or you know, a pastor or a politician or business leader today, business leader today, business leader today, to say, "Hey, you've made a mistake.

to say, "Hey, you've made a mistake. to say, "Hey, you've made a mistake. This is taking you out of leadership for This is taking you out of leadership for This is taking you out of leadership for now. This is the path ahead." How would now. This is the path ahead." How would now. This is the path ahead." How would you counsel them? >> Christianity >> Christianity is a religion about repentance. is a religion about repentance. is a religion about repentance. Repentance infers Repentance infers Repentance infers total transparency, total transparency, total transparency, humility, humility, humility, a recognition of of powerlessness, a recognition of of powerlessness, a recognition of of powerlessness, and the need for there to be a forgiver. and the need for there to be a forgiver. and the need for there to be a forgiver. That closes the transaction. That closes the transaction. That closes the transaction. Um I would contend that repentance is the I would contend that repentance is the most important single event in the life most important single event in the life most important single event in the life of a person who chooses to follow of a person who chooses to follow of a person who chooses to follow Christ. Christ. Christ. And if if what I'm saying is not too far And if if what I'm saying is not too far And if if what I'm saying is not too far from the truth, from the truth, from the truth, then then concomitant to that is there then then concomitant to that is there then then concomitant to that is there must be a place where I can repent. must be a place where I can repent. must be a place where I can repent. Which I think both you and I would agree Which I think both you and I would agree Which I think both you and I would agree we're churchmen.

we're churchmen. we're churchmen. That the church ought to be the place That the church ought to be the place That the church ought to be the place where people's repentance is honored and where people's repentance is honored and where people's repentance is honored and responded to. And yet today, and I I don't want to say And yet today, and I I don't want to say this in meanness, this in meanness, this in meanness, the church is one of the last places the church is one of the last places the church is one of the last places that one would want to repent. that one would want to repent. that one would want to repent. Because people do not respect the Because people do not respect the Because people do not respect the privilege of privilege of privilege of of accountability. I should say not of accountability. I should say not of accountability. I should say not accountability, but transparency. accountability, but transparency. accountability, but transparency. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um It It may be in fact that one of the It It may be in fact that one of the It It may be in fact that one of the reasons the Bible speaks about not being reasons the Bible speaks about not being reasons the Bible speaks about not being gossipers gossipers gossipers is because there's so much to gossip is because there's so much to gossip is because there's so much to gossip about in the church because it's one of about in the church because it's one of about in the church because it's one of the few places the few places the few places where people might talk about the where people might talk about the where people might talk about the darkness of their spirits, their souls. darkness of their spirits, their souls. darkness of their spirits, their souls. I mean, you don't go to a Quanas Club I mean, you don't go to a Quanas Club I mean, you don't go to a Quanas Club and confess your sins. and confess your sins. and confess your sins. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> You don't do it at the little league >> You don't do it at the little league >> You don't do it at the little league soccer game on the on Saturday morning. soccer game on the on Saturday morning. soccer game on the on Saturday morning. Church is a What do you do at church? Church is a What do you do at church? Church is a What do you do at church? Well, one of the things ought to be you Well, one of the things ought to be you Well, one of the things ought to be you give thanks, but a second would be I give thanks, but a second would be I give thanks, but a second would be I acknowledge my sinfulness.

acknowledge my sinfulness. acknowledge my sinfulness. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If you ever want to see this done, >> If you ever want to see this done, >> If you ever want to see this done, Carey, Carey, Carey, go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> I went to AA meetings two and three >> I went to AA meetings two and three >> I went to AA meetings two and three times a week for about a year and a times a week for about a year and a times a week for about a year and a half. Not because I drink alcohol, I half. Not because I drink alcohol, I half. Not because I drink alcohol, I don't. Let's get that straight. don't. Let's get that straight. don't. Let's get that straight. But I went because I was coaching some But I went because I was coaching some But I went because I was coaching some executives who were going to AA every executives who were going to AA every executives who were going to AA every day. day. day. And the things they told me And the things they told me And the things they told me smelled so much like what I thought a smelled so much like what I thought a smelled so much like what I thought a church ought to be that I had to go and church ought to be that I had to go and church ought to be that I had to go and see myself. see myself. see myself. And I went to an AA meeting. And I went to an AA meeting. And I went to an AA meeting. And within minutes, I was thoroughly And within minutes, I was thoroughly And within minutes, I was thoroughly mesmerized mesmerized mesmerized by the openness of women and men by the openness of women and men by the openness of women and men to repent. to repent. to repent. To each other. To each other. To each other. Um to acknowledge when when they slipped Um to acknowledge when when they slipped Um to acknowledge when when they slipped and taken a drink and shouldn't have. and taken a drink and shouldn't have. and taken a drink and shouldn't have. And I walked away saying, in the church, And I walked away saying, in the church, And I walked away saying, in the church, the preacher often has to start with the preacher often has to start with the preacher often has to start with people who think they're here and talk people who think they're here and talk people who think they're here and talk them down to here so that they could them down to here so that they could them down to here so that they could maybe start doing something right.

maybe start doing something right. maybe start doing something right. In AA, you start down here and you build In AA, you start down here and you build In AA, you start down here and you build up. up. up. The first thing you do at an AA meeting The first thing you do at an AA meeting The first thing you do at an AA meeting is say, my name is Bob, my name is is say, my name is Bob, my name is is say, my name is Bob, my name is Carrie. Carrie. Carrie. My name is Gordon. I'm an alcoholic. My name is Gordon. I'm an alcoholic. My name is Gordon. I'm an alcoholic. Everybody says that every day. Everybody says that every day. Everybody says that every day. So, we all now know where each other So, we all now know where each other So, we all now know where each other stands. stands. stands. And then the next hour is spent reading And then the next hour is spent reading And then the next hour is spent reading from the so-called big book and and from the so-called big book and and from the so-called big book and and telling our story. telling our story. telling our story. That's repentance. [clears throat] That's repentance. [clears throat] That's repentance. [clears throat] And that also is the receiving group And that also is the receiving group And that also is the receiving group that hears the repentance. that hears the repentance. that hears the repentance. And the favorite response of the group And the favorite response of the group And the favorite response of the group will be will be will be um um um just keep on coming. Just keep on just keep on coming. Just keep on just keep on coming. Just keep on coming. They say it a thousand times, coming. They say it a thousand times, coming. They say it a thousand times, keep on coming. keep on coming. keep on coming. And uh And uh And uh I was blown out of the water by my AA I was blown out of the water by my AA I was blown out of the water by my AA experience and so thankful that those experience and so thankful that those experience and so thankful that those alcoholics allowed me to join their alcoholics allowed me to join their alcoholics allowed me to join their fellowship for that year and a half. fellowship for that year and a half. fellowship for that year and a half. So, that's back to the church is what, So, that's back to the church is what, So, that's back to the church is what, you know, I think every pastor ought to you know, I think every pastor ought to you know, I think every pastor ought to be be be encouraged to go AA meetings for 6 encouraged to go AA meetings for 6 encouraged to go AA meetings for 6 months or 9 months just to see months or 9 months just to see months or 9 months just to see what the church could be like what the church could be like what the church could be like if we discovered repentance. So, if we discovered repentance. So, if we discovered repentance. So, repentance is this acknowledgement I repentance is this acknowledgement I repentance is this acknowledgement I have failed have failed have failed and I renounce any desire to excuse and I renounce any desire to excuse and I renounce any desire to excuse myself or to ask you to look past this.

myself or to ask you to look past this. myself or to ask you to look past this. We're going to deal with it. This is We're going to deal with it. This is We're going to deal with it. This is what happened. what happened. what happened. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And when that has been satisfactorily >> And when that has been satisfactorily >> And when that has been satisfactorily pronounced pronounced pronounced then the next step is is then the next step is is then the next step is is is the forgiveness and restoration. is the forgiveness and restoration. is the forgiveness and restoration. And And And if I'm the one that's repenting, I if I'm the one that's repenting, I if I'm the one that's repenting, I cannot forgive myself. I cannot dictate cannot forgive myself. I cannot dictate cannot forgive myself. I cannot dictate the terms beyond that. the terms beyond that. the terms beyond that. But I'm I must be surrounded by a group But I'm I must be surrounded by a group But I'm I must be surrounded by a group of men and women of men and women of men and women who accept the responsibility to oversee who accept the responsibility to oversee who accept the responsibility to oversee the working out of my repentance. the working out of my repentance. the working out of my repentance. And to they're like a cast on a broken And to they're like a cast on a broken And to they're like a cast on a broken arm. arm. arm. The arm is broken and can't function, The arm is broken and can't function, The arm is broken and can't function, but the cast is sturdy as it and the but the cast is sturdy as it and the but the cast is sturdy as it and the people who surround me become the cast. people who surround me become the cast. people who surround me become the cast. And they're the people who say after a And they're the people who say after a And they're the people who say after a period of time period of time period of time we've been watching this woman or we've been watching this woman or we've been watching this woman or watching this man or this couple. watching this man or this couple. watching this man or this couple. The sorrow that they feel for their sin The sorrow that they feel for their sin The sorrow that they feel for their sin is real and genuine and from everything is real and genuine and from everything is real and genuine and from everything we can see God has brought to them full we can see God has brought to them full we can see God has brought to them full forgiveness.

forgiveness. forgiveness. We recommend We recommend We recommend that they come out and take steps that they come out and take steps that they come out and take steps forward to be more visible. forward to be more visible. forward to be more visible. >> So, it's a communal process. >> So, it's a communal process. >> So, it's a communal process. >> That's what the church is. It's a >> That's what the church is. It's a >> That's what the church is. It's a communal process. communal process. communal process. And And And you know, when you hear about someone you know, when you hear about someone you know, when you hear about someone who just takes this on their own back who just takes this on their own back who just takes this on their own back you say to yourself, that just can't be you say to yourself, that just can't be you say to yourself, that just can't be right. right. right. Um this is a place where the church is Um this is a place where the church is Um this is a place where the church is to be in motion lovingly with each to be in motion lovingly with each to be in motion lovingly with each other. other. other. And and that demands that as time goes And and that demands that as time goes And and that demands that as time goes by that the forgiven person by that the forgiven person by that the forgiven person be slowly restored to certain levels be slowly restored to certain levels be slowly restored to certain levels and that that that the church stops and that that that the church stops and that that that the church stops holding against them holding against them holding against them what what has been so detrimental what what has been so detrimental what what has been so detrimental uh the cause of Christ at that uh the cause of Christ at that uh the cause of Christ at that particular moment. I I would suggest you particular moment. I I would suggest you particular moment. I I would suggest you that these principles are there and but that these principles are there and but that these principles are there and but everyone every individual's experience everyone every individual's experience everyone every individual's experience is different than the other one by a is different than the other one by a is different than the other one by a small small small degree. And so, each one has to be taken degree. And so, each one has to be taken degree. And so, each one has to be taken on its case-by-case um basis.

on its case-by-case um basis. on its case-by-case um basis. >> You say in the book, and I'm quoting, um >> You say in the book, and I'm quoting, um >> You say in the book, and I'm quoting, um "Broken world people are in no position "Broken world people are in no position "Broken world people are in no position to demand grace or even deserve it." to demand grace or even deserve it." to demand grace or even deserve it." Which is something you see Which is something you see Which is something you see these days that that is interesting. these days that that is interesting. these days that that is interesting. Someone says, "Yes, I did it, but I I Someone says, "Yes, I did it, but I I Someone says, "Yes, I did it, but I I deserve forgiveness. I demand deserve forgiveness. I demand deserve forgiveness. I demand forgiveness." Almost immediately without forgiveness." Almost immediately without forgiveness." Almost immediately without that process you talk about it. Why why that process you talk about it. Why why that process you talk about it. Why why do you feel broken world people are in do you feel broken world people are in do you feel broken world people are in no position to demand grace or even no position to demand grace or even no position to demand grace or even deserve it? deserve it? deserve it? >> Here's an idea. Um >> Here's an idea. Um >> Here's an idea. Um no one ever sins alone. >> Yes, no one ever sins alone. >> Yes, no one ever sins alone. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. When a person falls into sin, and you When a person falls into sin, and you When a person falls into sin, and you have to be very careful when you say have to be very careful when you say have to be very careful when you say this. this. this. You You also want to look at the context You You also want to look at the context You You also want to look at the context in which they made the choice that they in which they made the choice that they in which they made the choice that they made and say, made and say, made and say, "What else was going on at that "What else was going on at that "What else was going on at that particular time particular time particular time that that that didn't help this person that that that didn't help this person that that that didn't help this person uh defend themselves when they made the uh defend themselves when they made the uh defend themselves when they made the bad choice?" bad choice?" bad choice?" Um Um Um you'll often hear people say, you'll often hear people say, you'll often hear people say, "Yeah, so-and-so did that, but and there "Yeah, so-and-so did that, but and there "Yeah, so-and-so did that, but and there for the but the grace of God go I."

for the but the grace of God go I." for the but the grace of God go I." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if I'm the person that's hearing >> And if I'm the person that's hearing >> And if I'm the person that's hearing that, I want to say, "So, where was the that, I want to say, "So, where was the that, I want to say, "So, where was the grace of God where I needed it? If it grace of God where I needed it? If it grace of God where I needed it? If it prevented him from falling into the sin, prevented him from falling into the sin, prevented him from falling into the sin, why didn't it prevent me?" why didn't it prevent me?" why didn't it prevent me?" So, the question is that wherever there So, the question is that wherever there So, the question is that wherever there is sin, is sin, is sin, might we assume might we assume might we assume that there was something going wrong in that there was something going wrong in that there was something going wrong in the larger context of this person's the larger context of this person's the larger context of this person's life? And there are other people who life? And there are other people who life? And there are other people who have things to repent about them. have things to repent about them. have things to repent about them. They have things to repent about, too. They have things to repent about, too. They have things to repent about, too. In other words, this is a communal In other words, this is a communal In other words, this is a communal repentance repentance repentance when something goes wrong. And the the when something goes wrong. And the the when something goes wrong. And the the person in question may be, in our human person in question may be, in our human person in question may be, in our human way we have to say this, they may be on way we have to say this, they may be on way we have to say this, they may be on a scale of 10, a scale of 10, a scale of 10, but there are also people in this thing but there are also people in this thing but there are also people in this thing on a scale of three and four. on a scale of three and four. on a scale of three and four. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they have something uh to account >> And they have something uh to account >> And they have something uh to account for, too. for, too. for, too. So, So, So, if if you want community, it's if if you want community, it's if if you want community, it's community's not only there to bless community's not only there to bless community's not only there to bless people in their finest moments, but people in their finest moments, but people in their finest moments, but community also takes responsibility when community also takes responsibility when community also takes responsibility when someone fails.

someone fails. someone fails. >> Rather than banish and push push them to >> Rather than banish and push push them to >> Rather than banish and push push them to the outside of the community. the outside of the community. the outside of the community. >> Rather than banish them to the outside. >> Rather than banish them to the outside. >> Rather than banish them to the outside. >> Mhm. I don't want to spend too much time >> Mhm. I don't want to spend too much time >> Mhm. I don't want to spend too much time more time on it, but there was another more time on it, but there was another more time on it, but there was another really uh intriguing quote that I wanted really uh intriguing quote that I wanted really uh intriguing quote that I wanted to uh first of all, make sure it's to uh first of all, make sure it's to uh first of all, make sure it's accurate, secondly, share it with you, accurate, secondly, share it with you, accurate, secondly, share it with you, see what you have to say. More than half see what you have to say. More than half see what you have to say. More than half of middle-aged American men um harbor at of middle-aged American men um harbor at of middle-aged American men um harbor at least one secret about their personal least one secret about their personal least one secret about their personal lives, acts of vengeance, dishonesty, lives, acts of vengeance, dishonesty, lives, acts of vengeance, dishonesty, sexual promiscuity, that would quote sexual promiscuity, that would quote sexual promiscuity, that would quote bring about catastrophic consequences bring about catastrophic consequences bring about catastrophic consequences for them and those close to them. for them and those close to them. for them and those close to them. Can you comment on that? And what do you Can you comment on that? And what do you Can you comment on that? And what do you do with that kind of secret? >> Well, the comment is based upon >> Well, the comment is based upon anecdotal anecdotal anecdotal experience. I mean, nobody's put out a experience. I mean, nobody's put out a experience. I mean, nobody's put out a questionnaire lately saying, "Have any questionnaire lately saying, "Have any questionnaire lately saying, "Have any secrets? So, what are they?" secrets? So, what are they?" secrets? So, what are they?" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I agree with the quote, that's why I'm >> I agree with the quote, that's why I'm >> I agree with the quote, that's why I'm asking the questions. >> the first thing we ought to do, and this >> the first thing we ought to do, and this may not be what you were looking for, may not be what you were looking for, may not be what you were looking for, but we need to ask ourselves, if that's but we need to ask ourselves, if that's but we need to ask ourselves, if that's true, then what does it say about the true, then what does it say about the true, then what does it say about the context of the church, the way we do context of the church, the way we do context of the church, the way we do church these days, church these days, church these days, that that that makes it possible for 50% or more of the makes it possible for 50% or more of the makes it possible for 50% or more of the people in attendance on a given Sunday people in attendance on a given Sunday people in attendance on a given Sunday to have secrets?

to have secrets? to have secrets? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Since I wrote that, I've fooled around >> Since I wrote that, I've fooled around >> Since I wrote that, I've fooled around on a number of occasions with a talk and on a number of occasions with a talk and on a number of occasions with a talk and then an essay then an essay then an essay um um um about the TSA scanner at the airport. about the TSA scanner at the airport. about the TSA scanner at the airport. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> And uh uh >> And uh uh >> And uh uh thinking to myself, what if you had a thinking to myself, what if you had a thinking to myself, what if you had a scanner at the front door of a church? scanner at the front door of a church? scanner at the front door of a church? And a person coming to church, the And a person coming to church, the And a person coming to church, the scanner examines their soul and spits scanner examines their soul and spits scanner examines their soul and spits out a printout that says, "This person out a printout that says, "This person out a printout that says, "This person today is wildly angry at his spouse. today is wildly angry at his spouse. today is wildly angry at his spouse. This person um is terribly fearful about This person um is terribly fearful about This person um is terribly fearful about a doctor's appointment that's coming on a doctor's appointment that's coming on a doctor's appointment that's coming on Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday afternoon. This person um fell into deep sin this This person um fell into deep sin this This person um fell into deep sin this week and is terrified that somebody's week and is terrified that somebody's week and is terrified that somebody's going to find out." going to find out." going to find out." And so, 3 minutes before the worship And so, 3 minutes before the worship And so, 3 minutes before the worship service starts, the head usher puts all service starts, the head usher puts all service starts, the head usher puts all of these printouts in the lap of the of these printouts in the lap of the of these printouts in the lap of the pastor. And I say to pastors, "If you pastor. And I say to pastors, "If you pastor. And I say to pastors, "If you knew that 18% of your people that knew that 18% of your people that knew that 18% of your people that morning were there seething in anger, morning were there seething in anger, morning were there seething in anger, and 14 of the percent of the people were and 14 of the percent of the people were and 14 of the percent of the people were stone-cold in their spiritual journey, stone-cold in their spiritual journey, stone-cold in their spiritual journey, and this person was unfaithful to his and this person was unfaithful to his and this person was unfaithful to his spouse, and this person spouse, and this person spouse, and this person uh was afraid of getting fired." If you uh was afraid of getting fired." If you uh was afraid of getting fired." If you knew all these people were sitting out knew all these people were sitting out knew all these people were sitting out there in those benches, how would that there in those benches, how would that there in those benches, how would that first affect the way you pray that first affect the way you pray that first affect the way you pray that morning?

morning? morning? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How would it affect the way you preach >> How would it affect the way you preach >> How would it affect the way you preach to people? to people? to people? How would it affect the words you use to How would it affect the words you use to How would it affect the words you use to formulate a benediction when you send formulate a benediction when you send formulate a benediction when you send these people out the door? And by the these people out the door? And by the these people out the door? And by the way, when they come in the scan through way, when they come in the scan through way, when they come in the scan through the scanner, how do you want them to the scanner, how do you want them to the scanner, how do you want them to leave an hour and 15 minutes later? What leave an hour and 15 minutes later? What leave an hour and 15 minutes later? What do you want to have changed? What are do you want to have changed? What are do you want to have changed? What are the grand results that that hour is the grand results that that hour is the grand results that that hour is supposed to achieve? supposed to achieve? supposed to achieve? >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> You know, there's a question. >> You know, there's a question. >> You know, there's a question. So, So, So, one of the interesting things and you one of the interesting things and you one of the interesting things and you and I discussed this a few moments ago and I discussed this a few moments ago and I discussed this a few moments ago um um um when we step away from being when we step away from being when we step away from being deeply involved as a pastor, and we deeply involved as a pastor, and we deeply involved as a pastor, and we start sitting in the pew from time to start sitting in the pew from time to start sitting in the pew from time to time, time, time, what do we see that we didn't see when what do we see that we didn't see when what do we see that we didn't see when we were behind the pew? we were behind the pew? we were behind the pew? >> You see different things, don't you? >> You see different things, don't you? >> You see different things, don't you? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> What do you see? >> What do you see? >> What do you see? >> I see boredom. I people going through >> I see boredom. I people going through >> I see boredom. I people going through the emotions. the emotions. the emotions. I'd like to go up to everybody 10 I'd like to go up to everybody 10 I'd like to go up to everybody 10 minutes after the service is over and minutes after the service is over and minutes after the service is over and say, "What did the pastor preach about?"

Or did you feel elevated when he or she Or did you feel elevated when he or she lifted the congregation in prayer? lifted the congregation in prayer? lifted the congregation in prayer? One of one of my concerns by the way One of one of my concerns by the way One of one of my concerns by the way about the new modern churches we're about the new modern churches we're about the new modern churches we're doing churches, doing churches, doing churches, it seems in most places in my it seems in most places in my it seems in most places in my observation there's a real diminution in observation there's a real diminution in observation there's a real diminution in prayer. prayer. prayer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And one of the great pastoral privileges >> And one of the great pastoral privileges >> And one of the great pastoral privileges is to pray for people. is to pray for people. is to pray for people. That's what a pastor does. That's what a pastor does. That's what a pastor does. And um so, you know, here are these And um so, you know, here are these And um so, you know, here are these people and I'm sitting out there. I know people and I'm sitting out there. I know people and I'm sitting out there. I know what it's like to sit in one of those what it's like to sit in one of those what it's like to sit in one of those pews pews pews with a secret. I've been there. with a secret. I've been there. with a secret. I've been there. And And And as I talk to men and and I I have as I talk to men and and I I have as I talk to men and and I I have breakfast three to four mornings a week breakfast three to four mornings a week breakfast three to four mornings a week with with men, business people and with with men, business people and with with men, business people and stuff. stuff. stuff. And over and over again the moment comes And over and over again the moment comes And over and over again the moment comes when they unload a secret on you. when they unload a secret on you. when they unload a secret on you. And you realize people are carrying And you realize people are carrying And you realize people are carrying secrets all over the place and secrets all over the place and secrets all over the place and walking the halls of their homes in the walking the halls of their homes in the walking the halls of their homes in the middle of the night terrified lest they middle of the night terrified lest they middle of the night terrified lest they be found out. be found out. be found out. >> I think you have that analogy in your >> I think you have that analogy in your >> I think you have that analogy in your book Rebuilding Your Broken World about book Rebuilding Your Broken World about book Rebuilding Your Broken World about sitting there with a dead body under the sitting there with a dead body under the sitting there with a dead body under the boards. Do you remember that?

boards. Do you remember that? boards. Do you remember that? >> Oh, yes. That's a >> Oh, yes. That's a >> Oh, yes. That's a That comes from a great American novel. That comes from a great American novel. That comes from a great American novel. >> Which one? >> Which one? >> Which one? >> Um >> Um >> Um oh my gosh, it's called The Tell-Tale oh my gosh, it's called The Tell-Tale oh my gosh, it's called The Tell-Tale Heart. Heart. Heart. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Uh I'm sorry. >> Uh I'm sorry. >> Uh I'm sorry. >> But it's that idea that and I'm going to >> But it's that idea that and I'm going to >> But it's that idea that and I'm going to get it wrong cuz we a couple of years get it wrong cuz we a couple of years get it wrong cuz we a couple of years ago ago ago >> beats louder and louder and louder. >> beats louder and louder and louder. >> beats louder and louder and louder. >> Yeah, the heartbeat. You can almost hear >> Yeah, the heartbeat. You can almost hear >> Yeah, the heartbeat. You can almost hear the the beating heart under the the the beating heart under the the the beating heart under the floorboards and if no one else discovers floorboards and if no one else discovers floorboards and if no one else discovers it, the murderer has to eventually just it, the murderer has to eventually just it, the murderer has to eventually just say, "Yes, I did it. It was me. It was say, "Yes, I did it. It was me. It was say, "Yes, I did it. It was me. It was me. It was me. I'm telling you I can me. It was me. I'm telling you I can me. It was me. I'm telling you I can know you all." Like that that conscience know you all." Like that that conscience know you all." Like that that conscience really really really eats at you. eats at you. eats at you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So you tell someone >> So you tell someone >> So you tell someone >> Which by the way is exactly what happens >> Which by the way is exactly what happens >> Which by the way is exactly what happens in AA. in AA. in AA. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But doesn't happen in church cuz we have >> But doesn't happen in church cuz we have >> But doesn't happen in church cuz we have this program this program this program that needs to be followed inch by inch that needs to be followed inch by inch that needs to be followed inch by inch and we can't break the program and we can't break the program and we can't break the program um for anybody to stop and and um for anybody to stop and and um for anybody to stop and and you know, experience the love of Christ you know, experience the love of Christ you know, experience the love of Christ and the grace of Christ. and the grace of Christ. and the grace of Christ. Um Um Um I I my own feeling is the next 25 years I I my own feeling is the next 25 years I I my own feeling is the next 25 years um the church is going to have to um the church is going to have to um the church is going to have to reframe its way of doing business reframe its way of doing business reframe its way of doing business um lest it totally fail um lest it totally fail um lest it totally fail people who need fresh starts and an people who need fresh starts and an people who need fresh starts and an infusion of grace.

infusion of grace. infusion of grace. >> Do you still believe in the church? I >> Do you still believe in the church? I >> Do you still believe in the church? I mean I'm not saying that in an accusing mean I'm not saying that in an accusing mean I'm not saying that in an accusing way, but there's a growing number of way, but there's a growing number of way, but there's a growing number of people who are just walking away from people who are just walking away from people who are just walking away from the church, period, and saying, "I'm a the church, period, and saying, "I'm a the church, period, and saying, "I'm a Christian, but I'm by myself." Christian, but I'm by myself." Christian, but I'm by myself." >> Yeah, I know I any number of them. >> Yeah, I know I any number of them. >> Yeah, I know I any number of them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, the businessman who comes by at >> Yeah, the businessman who comes by at >> Yeah, the businessman who comes by at the end of the Sunday morning and says the end of the Sunday morning and says the end of the Sunday morning and says "I've just attended my final church "I've just attended my final church "I've just attended my final church service." service." service." Um I've got too much good stuff to do Um I've got too much good stuff to do Um I've got too much good stuff to do with my time with my time with my time um than to sit through something that um than to sit through something that um than to sit through something that doesn't touch me Monday through Friday. doesn't touch me Monday through Friday. doesn't touch me Monday through Friday. One businessman said to me One businessman said to me One businessman said to me "You know what church is like for me? He "You know what church is like for me? He "You know what church is like for me? He said our pastor gets up said our pastor gets up said our pastor gets up at the end of the service and he prays, at the end of the service and he prays, at the end of the service and he prays, 'Lord 'Lord 'Lord thank you for our meeting together this thank you for our meeting together this thank you for our meeting together this morning. morning. morning. Would you please bless the choir as it Would you please bless the choir as it Would you please bless the choir as it rehearses on Tuesday night and those of rehearses on Tuesday night and those of rehearses on Tuesday night and those of us will be at prayer meeting on us will be at prayer meeting on us will be at prayer meeting on Wednesday and the youth as they go off Wednesday and the youth as they go off Wednesday and the youth as they go off on retreat and bring us back here next on retreat and bring us back here next on retreat and bring us back here next Sunday ready to praise you again. Amen.' Sunday ready to praise you again. Amen.' Sunday ready to praise you again. Amen.' And the business guy looks at me and he And the business guy looks at me and he And the business guy looks at me and he says says says "He doesn't know I have a job.

"He doesn't know I have a job. "He doesn't know I have a job. He doesn't know that all week long He doesn't know that all week long He doesn't know that all week long I'm suffering and stressing through a I'm suffering and stressing through a I'm suffering and stressing through a work world which is just pulling me work world which is just pulling me work world which is just pulling me apart. That's what I need prayer for." apart. That's what I need prayer for." apart. That's what I need prayer for." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, you asked me do you >> And so, you know, you asked me do you >> And so, you know, you asked me do you know, I I will never leave the church. know, I I will never leave the church. know, I I will never leave the church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um And and and by the way, we're back to And and and by the way, we're back to And and and by the way, we're back to oldness again. oldness again. oldness again. Gail and I need the church cuz we need Gail and I need the church cuz we need Gail and I need the church cuz we need somebody to die with. somebody to die with. somebody to die with. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We need somebody to die with. We need somebody to die with. We need somebody to die with. I need to know if I go before I get home I need to know if I go before I get home I need to know if I go before I get home tonight that there will be people tonight that there will be people tonight that there will be people standing around my grave with Gail. standing around my grave with Gail. standing around my grave with Gail. I need to know if something happens to I need to know if something happens to I need to know if something happens to her her her that people will stand with me around that people will stand with me around that people will stand with me around the grave. the grave. the grave. Um and Um and Um and that's the role of the church. that's the role of the church. that's the role of the church. Ultimately, it's a family of people. Ultimately, it's a family of people. Ultimately, it's a family of people. So, as boring as it sometimes may be, So, as boring as it sometimes may be, So, as boring as it sometimes may be, it's your people. it's your people. it's your people. You watch old people and you didn't ask You watch old people and you didn't ask You watch old people and you didn't ask me to this, I'll just throw it in. You me to this, I'll just throw it in. You me to this, I'll just throw it in. You watch old people watch old people watch old people when they come to church, um when they come to church, um when they come to church, um they you often come early they you often come early they you often come early >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> to get the back rows and the side rows >> to get the back rows and the side rows >> to get the back rows and the side rows and they come to see their friends. and they come to see their friends. and they come to see their friends. And if you listen to the conversations, And if you listen to the conversations, And if you listen to the conversations, it's about I have a doctor's appointment it's about I have a doctor's appointment it's about I have a doctor's appointment at 9:00 on Tuesday or my grandchildren at 9:00 on Tuesday or my grandchildren at 9:00 on Tuesday or my grandchildren are coming home this week, I'm so are coming home this week, I'm so are coming home this week, I'm so excited. excited. excited. And you listen to them talk with each And you listen to them talk with each And you listen to them talk with each other, the talk of friends. other, the talk of friends. other, the talk of friends. Then at the end of the service, they Then at the end of the service, they Then at the end of the service, they talk more and then finally go home. talk more and then finally go home. talk more and then finally go home. The price of the talking is you have to The price of the talking is you have to The price of the talking is you have to go to the worship service go to the worship service go to the worship service because in the worship service, because in the worship service, because in the worship service, you know, there are no songs they know. you know, there are no songs they know. you know, there are no songs they know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No sermons are usually about things that >> No sermons are usually about things that >> No sermons are usually about things that old people old people old people are concerned about. What are the sins are concerned about. What are the sins are concerned about. What are the sins of old people? Nobody knows. of old people? Nobody knows. of old people? Nobody knows. >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. >> Yeah, we know the sins of 20-year-olds, >> Yeah, we know the sins of 20-year-olds, >> Yeah, we know the sins of 20-year-olds, as I said before, cuz the hor- the as I said before, cuz the hor- the as I said before, cuz the hor- the hormones are in motion. hormones are in motion. hormones are in motion. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, most sinfulness in our early >> And so, most sinfulness in our early >> And so, most sinfulness in our early years is about sexually related years is about sexually related years is about sexually related situations. situations. situations. But when you're 75 or 76, that's not a But when you're 75 or 76, that's not a But when you're 75 or 76, that's not a problem anymore. problem anymore. problem anymore. >> [laughter] >> So, what are the sins of old people, >> So, what are the sins of old people, Gordon? Well, old fear.

Gordon? Well, old fear. Gordon? Well, old fear. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. How am I going to die? Will anybody be How am I going to die? Will anybody be How am I going to die? Will anybody be there when I die? Will I die a long there when I die? Will I die a long there when I die? Will I die a long death or a slow death? Will I get death or a slow death? Will I get death or a slow death? Will I get Alzheimer's? Will I get dementia? Or Alzheimer's? Will I get dementia? Or Alzheimer's? Will I get dementia? Or will I peacefully go in my sleep? will I peacefully go in my sleep? will I peacefully go in my sleep? So, fear, real bitterness. So, fear, real bitterness. So, fear, real bitterness. My grandchildren never come home. My grandchildren never come home. My grandchildren never come home. My son My son My son only wants my money. only wants my money. only wants my money. Um my friends are all dying and there's Um my friends are all dying and there's Um my friends are all dying and there's no one left. no one left. no one left. The Those would be the things that The Those would be the things that The Those would be the things that 70-year-olds might uh anger, the system 70-year-olds might uh anger, the system 70-year-olds might uh anger, the system let me down. I thought it would you let me down. I thought it would you let me down. I thought it would you know, we have people in church at the know, we have people in church at the know, we have people in church at the age of 70, 75, 80 who 25 years of bit age of 70, 75, 80 who 25 years of bit age of 70, 75, 80 who 25 years of bit gave everything to that church. They gave everything to that church. They gave everything to that church. They chairmaned the building committee. They chairmaned the building committee. They chairmaned the building committee. They were there every week to teach a Sunday were there every week to teach a Sunday were there every week to teach a Sunday school class. school class. school class. Nobody Now no one even knows who they Nobody Now no one even knows who they Nobody Now no one even knows who they are. are. are. So, they they become bitter. Is this all So, they they become bitter. Is this all So, they they become bitter. Is this all I get after all those years of I get after all those years of I get after all those years of faithfulness to the church? Now, you and faithfulness to the church? Now, you and faithfulness to the church? Now, you and I may think right now that's awfully I may think right now that's awfully I may think right now that's awfully picayune.

picayune. picayune. But there's a lot of people who are But there's a lot of people who are But there's a lot of people who are thinking thinking that way. thinking thinking that way. thinking thinking that way. >> What would you do to them if you were >> What would you do to them if you were >> What would you do to them if you were the 40-year-old pastor today and you're the 40-year-old pastor today and you're the 40-year-old pastor today and you're looking at those? You can rewind the looking at those? You can rewind the looking at those? You can rewind the clock and knowing what you know now, clock and knowing what you know now, clock and knowing what you know now, how would you speak into the lives of 70 how would you speak into the lives of 70 how would you speak into the lives of 70 and 80-year-olds? and 80-year-olds? and 80-year-olds? >> Well, you you obviously have to parcel >> Well, you you obviously have to parcel >> Well, you you obviously have to parcel out your time in in proper proportions. out your time in in proper proportions. out your time in in proper proportions. But I could hear But I could hear But I could hear a sensitive pastor maybe once a month a sensitive pastor maybe once a month a sensitive pastor maybe once a month in what I call the pastoral prayer, say, in what I call the pastoral prayer, say, in what I call the pastoral prayer, say, "Lord, "Lord, "Lord, as I look out across the congregation as I look out across the congregation as I look out across the congregation today, today, today, I see more than a few people who have I see more than a few people who have I see more than a few people who have gray hair. gray hair. gray hair. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's so good that they love to be with >> It's so good that they love to be with >> It's so good that they love to be with us. us. us. But I know that some of them are But I know that some of them are But I know that some of them are struggling with things today that they struggling with things today that they struggling with things today that they don't feel they could even share with don't feel they could even share with don't feel they could even share with us. So, I pray for them that you build us. So, I pray for them that you build us. So, I pray for them that you build up their courage. up their courage. up their courage. If they're in pain, that you'd heal If they're in pain, that you'd heal If they're in pain, that you'd heal them. them. them. If they're facing a little bit of If they're facing a little bit of If they're facing a little bit of depression, depression, depression, that they might know something about the that they might know something about the that they might know something about the the presence of Jesus. That's all old the presence of Jesus. That's all old the presence of Jesus. That's all old people need to hear.

people need to hear. people need to hear. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> And maybe once a month sing a song that >> And maybe once a month sing a song that >> And maybe once a month sing a song that they know by heart. they know by heart. they know by heart. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um you know, sing holy, holy, holy or >> Um you know, sing holy, holy, holy or >> Um you know, sing holy, holy, holy or crown him with many crowns or fairest crown him with many crowns or fairest crown him with many crowns or fairest Lord Jesus. And watch the old people, Lord Jesus. And watch the old people, Lord Jesus. And watch the old people, the smile that comes across their face the smile that comes across their face the smile that comes across their face to hear something familiar. to hear something familiar. to hear something familiar. Don't always make them stand. It hurts Don't always make them stand. It hurts Don't always make them stand. It hurts their hips. their hips. their hips. And if you wonder why they sit across And if you wonder why they sit across And if you wonder why they sit across the back, it's because many of them know the back, it's because many of them know the back, it's because many of them know they only have 40 seconds to get to the they only have 40 seconds to get to the they only have 40 seconds to get to the bathroom. bathroom. bathroom. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And no no young people know that. >> That's good word. Speaking to young >> That's good word. Speaking to young leaders, we have a lot of next leaders, we have a lot of next leaders, we have a lot of next generation leaders generation leaders generation leaders listening and uh I feel like I've grown listening and uh I feel like I've grown listening and uh I feel like I've grown so much in our our time together today. so much in our our time together today. so much in our our time together today. If you had a word for the next If you had a word for the next If you had a word for the next generation, the up-and-coming church generation, the up-and-coming church generation, the up-and-coming church leaders, business leaders, leaders, business leaders, leaders, business leaders, entrepreneurs, what would you say to entrepreneurs, what would you say to entrepreneurs, what would you say to them? >> Well, there's so much good I could say. >> Well, there's so much good I could say. Um Um Um I I'd want to say something about I I I I'd want to say something about I I I I'd want to say something about I I love the vision of younger people, their love the vision of younger people, their love the vision of younger people, their boldness.

boldness. boldness. Um I love the fact that a lot of them Um I love the fact that a lot of them Um I love the fact that a lot of them don't get caught up in small things don't get caught up in small things don't get caught up in small things that I found my generation getting that I found my generation getting that I found my generation getting caught up in. caught up in. caught up in. Um so, I I love those kind of things. I Um so, I I love those kind of things. I Um so, I I love those kind of things. I love their compassion and their openness love their compassion and their openness love their compassion and their openness to the broken people of this world. to the broken people of this world. to the broken people of this world. Um Um Um I see I see I see I see them I see them I see them disciplining a lot of them anyway, disciplining a lot of them anyway, disciplining a lot of them anyway, disciplining their consumeristic disciplining their consumeristic disciplining their consumeristic approaches. I love their concern for approaches. I love their concern for approaches. I love their concern for climate change and for the beauty of climate change and for the beauty of climate change and for the beauty of creation. creation. creation. Um so, those are the things I'd want to Um so, those are the things I'd want to Um so, those are the things I'd want to affirm. affirm. affirm. On the other hand, I think young people On the other hand, I think young people On the other hand, I think young people are are are missing missing missing the joy of the splendor and the majesty the joy of the splendor and the majesty the joy of the splendor and the majesty of God of God of God which is created by a certain solemnity which is created by a certain solemnity which is created by a certain solemnity um that must be there sometimes um that must be there sometimes um that must be there sometimes and and an openness that this our God is and and an openness that this our God is and and an openness that this our God is so great. And again, back to AA, the so great. And again, back to AA, the so great. And again, back to AA, the first of the 12 steps, we admitted that first of the 12 steps, we admitted that first of the 12 steps, we admitted that we were powerless and that there is we were powerless and that there is we were powerless and that there is someone that's greater than us.

someone that's greater than us. someone that's greater than us. I'm not sure I hear that quite like that I'm not sure I hear that quite like that I'm not sure I hear that quite like that in the church. So, I think my AA friends in the church. So, I think my AA friends in the church. So, I think my AA friends they have a better theology than I have they have a better theology than I have they have a better theology than I have sometimes. sometimes. sometimes. But but I would call young people in the But but I would call young people in the But but I would call young people in the church Oh, finally. To recognize To recognize that church is a 52-week-a-year that church is a 52-week-a-year that church is a 52-week-a-year proposition. proposition. proposition. And if people are going to come to And if people are going to come to And if people are going to come to church to worship only 1.7 times a month church to worship only 1.7 times a month church to worship only 1.7 times a month then they'd better accept the fact that then they'd better accept the fact that then they'd better accept the fact that their faith will not go very far. their faith will not go very far. their faith will not go very far. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And that that that is becoming one of the that that that is becoming one of the that that that is becoming one of the great great great problems of churches. The church has problems of churches. The church has problems of churches. The church has been structured for 300 years been structured for 300 years been structured for 300 years to a 52-Sunday-a-week to a 52-Sunday-a-week to a 52-Sunday-a-week year. year. year. People teach Sunday school 48 Sundays a People teach Sunday school 48 Sundays a People teach Sunday school 48 Sundays a year because children need the same year because children need the same year because children need the same teacher week after week. teacher week after week. teacher week after week. Other people serve in various ways 48 Other people serve in various ways 48 Other people serve in various ways 48 Sundays a year because the church Sundays a year because the church Sundays a year because the church depends upon the faithfulness of people.

depends upon the faithfulness of people. depends upon the faithfulness of people. It can't be I'll be there this week and It can't be I'll be there this week and It can't be I'll be there this week and maybe next July and next August. maybe next July and next August. maybe next July and next August. Um so, I I would love to see in this Um so, I I would love to see in this Um so, I I would love to see in this this this this new generation new generation new generation more faithfulness, more committedness. more faithfulness, more committedness. more faithfulness, more committedness. Um Um Um maybe that would maybe that would maybe that would make worship more exciting. make worship more exciting. make worship more exciting. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about your marriage. It's 58 years you and your marriage. It's 58 years you and your marriage. It's 58 years you and Gail uh have been Is that right? 58 Gail uh have been Is that right? 58 Gail uh have been Is that right? 58 years? Yeah. years? Yeah. years? Yeah. What are I know it's funny, Tony and I, What are I know it's funny, Tony and I, What are I know it's funny, Tony and I, my wife, we will celebrate 30 years. And my wife, we will celebrate 30 years. And my wife, we will celebrate 30 years. And what have been some things that have what have been some things that have what have been some things that have really helped the two of you? Cuz of really helped the two of you? Cuz of really helped the two of you? Cuz of everything I hear through Josh and other everything I hear through Josh and other everything I hear through Josh and other things I've seen you read or things I've seen you read or things I've seen you read or speak, you seem to be very much in love speak, you seem to be very much in love speak, you seem to be very much in love almost six decades into this. So, what almost six decades into this. So, what almost six decades into this. So, what are some are some are some marriage marriage marriage um tips or or insights you could give um tips or or insights you could give um tips or or insights you could give us? us? us? >> Sometimes when I'm speaking at a men's >> Sometimes when I'm speaking at a men's >> Sometimes when I'm speaking at a men's conference, conference, conference, I'll say um I'll say um I'll say um You know what the high point of my day You know what the high point of my day You know what the high point of my day is?

is? is? And this quietness as people And this quietness as people And this quietness as people think about that. think about that. think about that. They don't have the slightest idea. They don't have the slightest idea. They don't have the slightest idea. And finally I've got them curious and And finally I've got them curious and And finally I've got them curious and I'll say, I'll say, I'll say, "High point of my day is when night "High point of my day is when night "High point of my day is when night comes and I crawl into my bed and I put comes and I crawl into my bed and I put comes and I crawl into my bed and I put my arms around Gail and squeeze her as my arms around Gail and squeeze her as my arms around Gail and squeeze her as tightly as I can. tightly as I can. tightly as I can. That's the greatest moment of the day." And I still feel that way. And I still feel that way. And we 80-year-olds still hug And we 80-year-olds still hug And we 80-year-olds still hug and enjoy each other very, very much. and enjoy each other very, very much. and enjoy each other very, very much. When my friend Keith that I told you When my friend Keith that I told you When my friend Keith that I told you about a while ago about a while ago about a while ago introduced us, introduced us, introduced us, those weeks went by as Gail and I those weeks went by as Gail and I those weeks went by as Gail and I worked our heads off to know each other worked our heads off to know each other worked our heads off to know each other better and better and better. better and better and better. better and better and better. And 2 weeks before we were to get And 2 weeks before we were to get And 2 weeks before we were to get married, married, married, my friend Keith took me out to lunch. my friend Keith took me out to lunch. my friend Keith took me out to lunch. And he we ordered and then he said, And he we ordered and then he said, And he we ordered and then he said, "Gordon, I have something to say to "Gordon, I have something to say to "Gordon, I have something to say to you." you." you." He said, "God has given to you an He said, "God has given to you an He said, "God has given to you an incredible woman to be your wife.

incredible woman to be your wife. incredible woman to be your wife. He means to say many things to you He means to say many things to you He means to say many things to you through her." through her." through her." And then he took his finger and he And then he took his finger and he And then he took his finger and he wagged it in my face. wagged it in my face. wagged it in my face. And he said three times loudly and And he said three times loudly and And he said three times loudly and firmly, firmly, firmly, "Listen to her. "Listen to her. "Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. Because you're not a good listener. That's one of the most important pieces That's one of the most important pieces of advice I ever got in my life. of advice I ever got in my life. of advice I ever got in my life. Because I fear that if he had not said Because I fear that if he had not said Because I fear that if he had not said that as strongly as he said it, that as strongly as he said it, that as strongly as he said it, I would have been one more brash I would have been one more brash I would have been one more brash guy thinking I had all the answers and guy thinking I had all the answers and guy thinking I had all the answers and if Gayle would listen to me, we'd do if Gayle would listen to me, we'd do if Gayle would listen to me, we'd do fine. fine. fine. But to this day, But to this day, But to this day, I'm not going to I'm not going to say I'm not going to I'm not going to say I'm not going to I'm not going to say 100% but as often as possible, 100% but as often as possible, 100% but as often as possible, whenever Gayle offers a rebuke or an whenever Gayle offers a rebuke or an whenever Gayle offers a rebuke or an affirmation, whenever she offers an idea affirmation, whenever she offers an idea affirmation, whenever she offers an idea that's a little bit different than mine, that's a little bit different than mine, that's a little bit different than mine, I hear Keith saying to me I hear Keith saying to me I hear Keith saying to me almost 59 years ago, almost 59 years ago, almost 59 years ago, listen to her.

listen to her. listen to her. Because what she's going to say just may Because what she's going to say just may Because what she's going to say just may be a word from God. be a word from God. be a word from God. And that put a sacred canopy over our And that put a sacred canopy over our And that put a sacred canopy over our relationship, relationship, relationship, um which is as there is there today as um which is as there is there today as um which is as there is there today as much as it's ever been. much as it's ever been. much as it's ever been. It isn't that we've had the perfect It isn't that we've had the perfect It isn't that we've had the perfect relationship. relationship. relationship. Um but I've never seen one that I prefer but I've never seen one that I prefer more than the one I have. more than the one I have. more than the one I have. I anticipated your question and I wrote I anticipated your question and I wrote I anticipated your question and I wrote down a few down a few down a few words on this piece of paper. words on this piece of paper. words on this piece of paper. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um I realized the day I married Gayle I realized the day I married Gayle I realized the day I married Gayle that I was making a commitment to serve that I was making a commitment to serve that I was making a commitment to serve her. her. her. Husbands, love your wives as Christ Husbands, love your wives as Christ Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for. loved the church and gave himself for. loved the church and gave himself for. And that verse in Ephesians is simply And that verse in Ephesians is simply And that verse in Ephesians is simply saying, you want to marry this woman? saying, you want to marry this woman? saying, you want to marry this woman? Then you better be prepared to die for Then you better be prepared to die for Then you better be prepared to die for her. her. her. Because that could happen. Because that could happen. Because that could happen. Serve her. Serve her. Serve her. Make sure that you're providing the Make sure that you're providing the Make sure that you're providing the opportunity for her to grow opportunity for her to grow opportunity for her to grow to be every inch the woman God intended to be every inch the woman God intended to be every inch the woman God intended her to be.

Enjoy mercy in your relationship. Be Enjoy mercy in your relationship. Be quick to forgive and slow to take quick to forgive and slow to take quick to forgive and slow to take offense. offense. offense. Learn how Learn how Learn how to affirm each other. to affirm each other. to affirm each other. Point up the good things that the other Point up the good things that the other Point up the good things that the other one is doing all day long and say a one is doing all day long and say a one is doing all day long and say a thousand thank yous. thousand thank yous. thousand thank yous. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh most of us men in leadership, women I >> Uh most of us men in leadership, women I >> Uh most of us men in leadership, women I suppose too, suppose too, suppose too, we don't have the time to give thanks. we don't have the time to give thanks. we don't have the time to give thanks. We just assume everybody will do We just assume everybody will do We just assume everybody will do everything for us. everything for us. everything for us. But giving thanks may be one of the But giving thanks may be one of the But giving thanks may be one of the greatest habits of all relationships greatest habits of all relationships greatest habits of all relationships there are. there are. there are. Talk with each other. Talk with each other. Talk with each other. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Have endless hours of conversation. >> Have endless hours of conversation. >> Have endless hours of conversation. Gail and I are never without things to Gail and I are never without things to Gail and I are never without things to talk about. talk about. talk about. It's probably because we both read a It's probably because we both read a It's probably because we both read a lot, lot, lot, because we're involved with people all because we're involved with people all because we're involved with people all the time. the time. the time. Um Um Um we always run out of time to talk about we always run out of time to talk about we always run out of time to talk about all the things that are on our mind. all the things that are on our mind. all the things that are on our mind. And um And um And um I'll bet on her company I'll bet on her company I'll bet on her company more than anybody else who comes on, you more than anybody else who comes on, you more than anybody else who comes on, you know, that I is in my world. She's just know, that I is in my world. She's just know, that I is in my world. She's just a fascinating woman to live with.

a fascinating woman to live with. a fascinating woman to live with. And finally, and this was one that we And finally, and this was one that we And finally, and this was one that we had to learn a little bit the hard way. had to learn a little bit the hard way. had to learn a little bit the hard way. Um Um Um learn how to play. learn how to play. learn how to play. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> When our children were at home, all of >> When our children were at home, all of >> When our children were at home, all of our play was in going to watch them play our play was in going to watch them play our play was in going to watch them play soccer, basketball, soccer, basketball, soccer, basketball, lacrosse, all these other things. We lacrosse, all these other things. We lacrosse, all these other things. We were always there on the sideline. were always there on the sideline. were always there on the sideline. That's a pastor's flexibility, as you That's a pastor's flexibility, as you That's a pastor's flexibility, as you know. know. know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So we were always there. And then one >> So we were always there. And then one >> So we were always there. And then one day the children day the children day the children played a bad joke on us. They left home. played a bad joke on us. They left home. played a bad joke on us. They left home. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, they do that, don't they? >> Yeah, they do that, don't they? >> Yeah, they do that, don't they? >> off to college. >> off to college. >> off to college. And they got married. And they got married. And they got married. They weren't supposed to do that. They weren't supposed to do that. They weren't supposed to do that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> They were supposed to be there to >> They were supposed to be there to >> They were supposed to be there to provide us with amusement. provide us with amusement. provide us with amusement. And they left. And so Gail and I, very And they left. And so Gail and I, very And they left. And so Gail and I, very wisely, filled all those vacant holes on wisely, filled all those vacant holes on wisely, filled all those vacant holes on the schedule with more work. the schedule with more work. the schedule with more work. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Write more articles, preach more >> Write more articles, preach more >> Write more articles, preach more sermons, travel to this place. sermons, travel to this place. sermons, travel to this place. And then one day we realized it had been And then one day we realized it had been And then one day we realized it had been a long time since we left. a long time since we left. a long time since we left. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Where we had just forgotten about >> Where we had just forgotten about >> Where we had just forgotten about ministry ministry ministry and were um and were um and were um just really enjoying life.

just really enjoying life. just really enjoying life. And um And um And um I said to Gail one day, I said to Gail one day, I said to Gail one day, "Next month "Next month "Next month we're going to Switzerland." we're going to Switzerland." we're going to Switzerland." "What for?" she said. "What for?" she said. "What for?" she said. "We're going to climb mountains. We're "We're going to climb mountains. We're "We're going to climb mountains. We're going to have fun." going to have fun." going to have fun." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> "Well, we don't have a >> "Well, we don't have a >> "Well, we don't have a agenda or a a agenda or a a agenda or a a we don't have a a schedule." we don't have a a schedule." we don't have a a schedule." "And that's just fine," I said. "We're "And that's just fine," I said. "We're "And that's just fine," I said. "We're going to go and we're going to guess at going to go and we're going to guess at going to go and we're going to guess at each day what it takes." each day what it takes." each day what it takes." "Well, how long are we going to go?" she "Well, how long are we going to go?" she "Well, how long are we going to go?" she said. I said, "Well, 31 days sounds like said. I said, "Well, 31 days sounds like said. I said, "Well, 31 days sounds like a good round number to me." a good round number to me." a good round number to me." And we went. And we went. And we went. It was the best 31 days of our lives. It was the best 31 days of our lives. It was the best 31 days of our lives. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We climbed the mountains every day. >> We climbed the mountains every day. >> We climbed the mountains every day. We read books. We read books. We read books. We ate good food. We ate good food. We ate good food. We slept in. We slept in. We slept in. We made a lot of love. We made a lot of love. We made a lot of love. And when those 31 days were over, And when those 31 days were over, And when those 31 days were over, we were newly married. we were newly married. we were newly married. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And we've gone back to Switzerland >> And we've gone back to Switzerland >> And we've gone back to Switzerland almost every year since. almost every year since. almost every year since. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> 30 years ago.

>> 30 years ago. >> 30 years ago. And um it's been the place where And um it's been the place where And um it's been the place where you know, we've just renewed everything. you know, we've just renewed everything. you know, we've just renewed everything. It's sacred territory to us even though It's sacred territory to us even though It's sacred territory to us even though it's very expensive. it's very expensive. it's very expensive. >> Yes, yeah. But isn't it strange that you >> Yes, yeah. But isn't it strange that you >> Yes, yeah. But isn't it strange that you end up you know, as long as you've had a end up you know, as long as you've had a end up you know, as long as you've had a long life so far, but like Tony and I, long life so far, but like Tony and I, long life so far, but like Tony and I, we became empty nesters when I was we became empty nesters when I was we became empty nesters when I was wasn't even 50. wasn't even 50. wasn't even 50. And it shocked me, like shocked me And it shocked me, like shocked me And it shocked me, like shocked me that there's more life ahead of you that there's more life ahead of you that there's more life ahead of you without kids than there was with kids. without kids than there was with kids. without kids than there was with kids. >> Yes. Important point. >> Yes. Important point. >> Yes. Important point. >> I'm I missed that. I I never thought >> I'm I missed that. I I never thought >> I'm I missed that. I I never thought about that until it kind of happened. about that until it kind of happened. about that until it kind of happened. And then you're like, oh, what do you do And then you're like, oh, what do you do And then you're like, oh, what do you do with the rest of this life? with the rest of this life? with the rest of this life? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the play is easily forgotten in your >> And the play is easily forgotten in your >> And the play is easily forgotten in your 50s. Yeah. 50s. Yeah. 50s. Yeah. >> Yeah, you just said a extremely wise >> Yeah, you just said a extremely wise >> Yeah, you just said a extremely wise thing. And thing. And thing. And um every woman and man in leadership um every woman and man in leadership um every woman and man in leadership ought to hear that ought to hear that ought to hear that and start talking with the principal and start talking with the principal and start talking with the principal people in their lives because your your people in their lives because your your people in their lives because your your marriage I we discovered our marriage marriage I we discovered our marriage marriage I we discovered our marriage came in thirds. The first 20 years were came in thirds. The first 20 years were came in thirds. The first 20 years were the the firsts. the the firsts. the the firsts. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right. >> doing everything for the first time. >> doing everything for the first time. >> doing everything for the first time. First house, first nice new car, First house, first nice new car, First house, first nice new car, first of this, first of that. Then the first of this, first of that. Then the first of this, first of that. Then the the middle part of life is the the the the middle part of life is the the the the middle part of life is the the the same. same. same. You start doing the same thing over and You start doing the same thing over and You start doing the same thing over and over again. Every week it's a sermon. Um over again. Every week it's a sermon. Um over again. Every week it's a sermon. Um every week it's a staff meeting. Every every week it's a staff meeting. Every every week it's a staff meeting. Every week it's a trip to here. week it's a trip to here. week it's a trip to here. And And And it's it's not novelty that drives you it's it's not novelty that drives you it's it's not novelty that drives you anymore, it's quality. anymore, it's quality. anymore, it's quality. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then the last third of life are the >> And then the last third of life are the >> And then the last third of life are the lasts. lasts. lasts. It's the last freezer we'll buy. It's the last freezer we'll buy. It's the last freezer we'll buy. This may be the last second car we'll This may be the last second car we'll This may be the last second car we'll have. This may be the last house we'll have. This may be the last house we'll have. This may be the last house we'll live in before the assisted care center. live in before the assisted care center. live in before the assisted care center. This may be the last time we go here or This may be the last time we go here or This may be the last time we go here or see this. see this. see this. And in fact, this may be the last time And in fact, this may be the last time And in fact, this may be the last time we're going to see certain people. We're we're going to see certain people. We're we're going to see certain people. We're saying goodbye all the time saying goodbye all the time saying goodbye all the time to people we love to people we love to people we love that we're never going to see again. Um that we're never going to see again. Um that we're never going to see again. Um as I say, they either are going to as I say, they either are going to as I say, they either are going to heaven or Florida. heaven or Florida. heaven or Florida. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh but li- life in the lasts is a lot of but li- life in the lasts is a lot of but li- life in the lasts is a lot of goodbyes.

goodbyes. goodbyes. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. This has been such a rich time. I don't This has been such a rich time. I don't This has been such a rich time. I don't even know how much time has gone by, but even know how much time has gone by, but even know how much time has gone by, but uh is there anything else we've covered uh is there anything else we've covered uh is there anything else we've covered a lot that you would love to share a lot that you would love to share a lot that you would love to share before we close? before we close? before we close? >> feel like I've I've said more than I >> feel like I've I've said more than I >> feel like I've I've said more than I know. know. know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Gordon, >> Gordon, >> Gordon, uh this is this is uh bucket list stuff uh this is this is uh bucket list stuff uh this is this is uh bucket list stuff for me. You've influenced my life in so for me. You've influenced my life in so for me. You've influenced my life in so many ways over the decades, and to be many ways over the decades, and to be many ways over the decades, and to be able to sit down and have a long able to sit down and have a long able to sit down and have a long meaningful, unhurried conversation with meaningful, unhurried conversation with meaningful, unhurried conversation with you that just happens to you that just happens to you that just happens to benefit a lot of leaders is great. If benefit a lot of leaders is great. If benefit a lot of leaders is great. If there's one more thing, do you have time there's one more thing, do you have time there's one more thing, do you have time for one more? I forgot this question. for one more? I forgot this question. for one more? I forgot this question. >> Well, I I is the one more thing I'd like >> Well, I I is the one more thing I'd like >> Well, I I is the one more thing I'd like to to to >> Yeah, one more thing you have and then >> Yeah, one more thing you have and then >> Yeah, one more thing you have and then I've got another question that I forgot I've got another question that I forgot I've got another question that I forgot to ask. to ask. to ask. >> Well, this may sound like it's kind of >> Well, this may sound like it's kind of >> Well, this may sound like it's kind of outside of the explicit sense of faith. outside of the explicit sense of faith. outside of the explicit sense of faith. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I would like to say to young people, >> But I would like to say to young people, >> But I would like to say to young people, be diligent to grow intellectually. be diligent to grow intellectually. be diligent to grow intellectually. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Your mind is a muscle >> Your mind is a muscle >> Your mind is a muscle and it becomes flaccid and it becomes flaccid and it becomes flaccid and stale if it's not used.

and stale if it's not used. and stale if it's not used. We do not train a lot of Christian We do not train a lot of Christian We do not train a lot of Christian leaders to think. leaders to think. leaders to think. We train them to have right answers. We train them to have right answers. We train them to have right answers. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We train them to make the right kind of >> We train them to make the right kind of >> We train them to make the right kind of appearances. appearances. appearances. We don't teach them how to think We don't teach them how to think We don't teach them how to think thoroughly and deeply and that was one thoroughly and deeply and that was one thoroughly and deeply and that was one of the things I regretted in my younger of the things I regretted in my younger of the things I regretted in my younger adult years. No one ever challenged me adult years. No one ever challenged me adult years. No one ever challenged me with the adventure of thinking. with the adventure of thinking. with the adventure of thinking. And it's one of the reasons that the And it's one of the reasons that the And it's one of the reasons that the evangelical voice evangelical voice evangelical voice my judgment in Canada and America my judgment in Canada and America my judgment in Canada and America is so weak today. is so weak today. is so weak today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We We We're just talking to ourselves. >> We We We're just talking to ourselves. >> We We We're just talking to ourselves. And to talk out into the larger world And to talk out into the larger world And to talk out into the larger world and speak so that you gain traction, and speak so that you gain traction, and speak so that you gain traction, you have to be a thinker. you have to be a thinker. you have to be a thinker. You have to prove to people You have to prove to people You have to prove to people that you've exposed yourself to the that you've exposed yourself to the that you've exposed yourself to the great thinking of the centuries all the great thinking of the centuries all the great thinking of the centuries all the way from Socrates and way from Socrates and way from Socrates and Plato all the way up to the days in Plato all the way up to the days in Plato all the way up to the days in which we live with There are some which we live with There are some which we live with There are some incredibly brilliant people incredibly brilliant people incredibly brilliant people walking the face of the earth. We need walking the face of the earth. We need walking the face of the earth. We need to know who they are and what they're to know who they are and what they're to know who they are and what they're saying and whether or not we agree with saying and whether or not we agree with saying and whether or not we agree with that.

that. that. But all the way through college and But all the way through college and But all the way through college and graduate school, I don't remember graduate school, I don't remember graduate school, I don't remember anybody saying, "Gordon, anybody saying, "Gordon, anybody saying, "Gordon, learn how to think systematically and learn how to think systematically and learn how to think systematically and come to sound conclusions that will be come to sound conclusions that will be come to sound conclusions that will be persuasive to other people." That's my persuasive to other people." That's my persuasive to other people." That's my last word to most younger leaders. last word to most younger leaders. last word to most younger leaders. >> That is a fantastic word. We we share >> That is a fantastic word. We we share >> That is a fantastic word. We we share that passion and uh that passion and uh that passion and uh I remember as I spent 10 years in I remember as I spent 10 years in I remember as I spent 10 years in university, history, law, theology. university, history, law, theology. university, history, law, theology. Um it was like you can love God with Um it was like you can love God with Um it was like you can love God with your mind, but you're supposed to love your mind, but you're supposed to love your mind, but you're supposed to love the Lord your God with your heart, soul, the Lord your God with your heart, soul, the Lord your God with your heart, soul, strength, and your mind. strength, and your mind. strength, and your mind. Questions. This was my question about Questions. This was my question about Questions. This was my question about questions. Somewhere along the line in questions. Somewhere along the line in questions. Somewhere along the line in my research, my preparation for today, I my research, my preparation for today, I my research, my preparation for today, I heard you say, it might have been in heard you say, it might have been in heard you say, it might have been in your interview with Josh on his podcast, your interview with Josh on his podcast, your interview with Josh on his podcast, that uh in your view, you you and Gail that uh in your view, you you and Gail that uh in your view, you you and Gail don't think people ask enough questions. don't think people ask enough questions. don't think people ask enough questions. That sometimes That sometimes That sometimes and and my wife Tony and I had the same and and my wife Tony and I had the same and and my wife Tony and I had the same observation. It's like rare to be in observation. It's like rare to be in observation. It's like rare to be in company company company where people don't talk at you and they where people don't talk at you and they where people don't talk at you and they actually stop to ask you questions. You actually stop to ask you questions. You actually stop to ask you questions. You want to say a little bit more about that want to say a little bit more about that want to say a little bit more about that because that really intrigued me about because that really intrigued me about because that really intrigued me about the art of question asking.

the art of question asking. the art of question asking. >> Well, yeah, >> Well, yeah, >> Well, yeah, you you went through an educational you you went through an educational you you went through an educational process where you learned to ask process where you learned to ask process where you learned to ask questions. questions. questions. >> That's what a lawyer is. >> That's what a lawyer is. >> That's what a lawyer is. >> And I mean and you you understand how >> And I mean and you you understand how >> And I mean and you you understand how the the order of questions. the the order of questions. the the order of questions. And I suspect you also know what And I suspect you also know what And I suspect you also know what questions should not be asked at certain questions should not be asked at certain questions should not be asked at certain points in litigation, for example. points in litigation, for example. points in litigation, for example. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> My mentor Vernon Grounds, who um >> My mentor Vernon Grounds, who um >> My mentor Vernon Grounds, who um I I followed for over 50 or 60 years, I I followed for over 50 or 60 years, I I followed for over 50 or 60 years, was the greatest question asker I ever was the greatest question asker I ever was the greatest question asker I ever met. He was like a skilled surgeon. met. He was like a skilled surgeon. met. He was like a skilled surgeon. He just smelled how to get into your He just smelled how to get into your He just smelled how to get into your heart. heart. heart. And you you'd go and you'd sit down and And you you'd go and you'd sit down and And you you'd go and you'd sit down and the next thing you know, he would the next thing you know, he would the next thing you know, he would he would just go one question after the he would just go one question after the he would just go one question after the other and and he would ask them in such other and and he would ask them in such other and and he would ask them in such a way that you didn't feel intruded a way that you didn't feel intruded a way that you didn't feel intruded upon. You trusted him that he would upon. You trusted him that he would upon. You trusted him that he would handle handle handle what you told him. what you told him. what you told him. And I began to realize, And I began to realize, And I began to realize, this is the this is the starting point this is the this is the starting point this is the this is the starting point of most ministry, question asking. of most ministry, question asking. of most ministry, question asking. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, I watched him over years. I I >> So, I watched him over years. I I >> So, I watched him over years. I I learned to copy him. learned to copy him. learned to copy him. And I just And I just And I just when I would sit down with anybody, you when I would sit down with anybody, you when I would sit down with anybody, you know, and has been a little bit of a know, and has been a little bit of a know, and has been a little bit of a rare experience for me because you've rare experience for me because you've rare experience for me because you've been the one asking the questions. I been the one asking the questions. I been the one asking the questions. I should be doing that. should be doing that. should be doing that. Uh but the the the privilege of getting Uh but the the the privilege of getting Uh but the the the privilege of getting into people's hearts and minds into people's hearts and minds into people's hearts and minds and making them feel heard and and making them feel heard and and making them feel heard and satisfying some of their curiosities and satisfying some of their curiosities and satisfying some of their curiosities and confusions confusions confusions um um um asking the questions that engender that asking the questions that engender that asking the questions that engender that is an amazing experience. And you know is an amazing experience. And you know is an amazing experience. And you know you've hit a home run, to use baseball you've hit a home run, to use baseball you've hit a home run, to use baseball language, when someone says, "Wow, language, when someone says, "Wow, language, when someone says, "Wow, nobody ever asked me that question nobody ever asked me that question nobody ever asked me that question before." before." before." Or they'll say, "That is a incredible Or they'll say, "That is a incredible Or they'll say, "That is a incredible question. I've got to think about that." question. I've got to think about that." question. I've got to think about that." So, that that was what um Gail and I So, that that was what um Gail and I So, that that was what um Gail and I learned over the years and learned over the years and learned over the years and we've decided that questions are the we've decided that questions are the we've decided that questions are the start of almost all ministry. And but start of almost all ministry. And but start of almost all ministry. And but now back to your point, I'll finish with now back to your point, I'll finish with now back to your point, I'll finish with this quickly.

this quickly. this quickly. If you don't like to think, then you If you don't like to think, then you If you don't like to think, then you don't ask questions cuz you're not don't ask questions cuz you're not don't ask questions cuz you're not curious. curious. curious. And so it's true. You go to one meeting And so it's true. You go to one meeting And so it's true. You go to one meeting after another, to a party or whatever, after another, to a party or whatever, after another, to a party or whatever, and you go on home and Gail will say to and you go on home and Gail will say to and you go on home and Gail will say to me in the car, me in the car, me in the car, "Anybody ask you anything tonight?" "Anybody ask you anything tonight?" "Anybody ask you anything tonight?" Or I'll ask it to her. Or I'll ask it to her. Or I'll ask it to her. "No. No, I just ended up asking people "No. No, I just ended up asking people "No. No, I just ended up asking people about how they felt about this or that, about how they felt about this or that, about how they felt about this or that, but nobody asked me anything." but nobody asked me anything." but nobody asked me anything." And um And um And um and I'll be and I'll be and I'll be I'll just I I say with bluntness, I I'm I'll just I I say with bluntness, I I'm I'll just I I say with bluntness, I I'm appalled appalled appalled that men and women who say they're that men and women who say they're that men and women who say they're followers of Jesus aren't more followers of Jesus aren't more followers of Jesus aren't more interested in each other's stories, in interested in each other's stories, in interested in each other's stories, in each other's conundrums. each other's conundrums. each other's conundrums. Um Um Um it's just it's just it's just it's just something we've failed to it's just something we've failed to it's just something we've failed to teach people to do. teach people to do. teach people to do. >> Gordon, I feel we have somewhat parallel >> Gordon, I feel we have somewhat parallel >> Gordon, I feel we have somewhat parallel existences. Tony and I will drive home existences. Tony and I will drive home existences. Tony and I will drive home from sometimes two, three, four-hour from sometimes two, three, four-hour from sometimes two, three, four-hour engagement. We'll have the same engagement. We'll have the same engagement. We'll have the same conversation. I'll say, "Did anybody ask conversation. I'll say, "Did anybody ask conversation. I'll say, "Did anybody ask you anything tonight?" And she'll say, you anything tonight?" And she'll say, you anything tonight?" And she'll say, "No." "No." "No." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was at some event for three or four >> I was at some event for three or four >> I was at some event for three or four hours. Nobody asked me a single hours. Nobody asked me a single hours. Nobody asked me a single question.

question. question. And it's just fascinating. And so we're And it's just fascinating. And so we're And it's just fascinating. And so we're trying this stage in our life to be the trying this stage in our life to be the trying this stage in our life to be the question askers. question askers. question askers. But it it opens up a whole new world, But it it opens up a whole new world, But it it opens up a whole new world, doesn't doesn't doesn't >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> And when it's mutual, it's the best. >> And when it's mutual, it's the best. >> And when it's mutual, it's the best. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um >> Um >> Um Gordon, your books are everywhere books Gordon, your books are everywhere books Gordon, your books are everywhere books are sold, but and you don't need a are sold, but and you don't need a are sold, but and you don't need a thousand emails as a result of this thousand emails as a result of this thousand emails as a result of this interview, but if someone wanted to find interview, but if someone wanted to find interview, but if someone wanted to find your work, is there a website or your work, is there a website or your work, is there a website or collection where it's easy to to find collection where it's easy to to find collection where it's easy to to find things these days? things these days? things these days? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh not really. not really. not really. Uh Amazon is the place, of course, if Uh Amazon is the place, of course, if Uh Amazon is the place, of course, if any of the books are available. any of the books are available. any of the books are available. Uh so I'd encourage that. I Uh so I'd encourage that. I Uh so I'd encourage that. I I have not gone like I have not gone like I have not gone like you two, you guys have done and used you two, you guys have done and used you two, you guys have done and used technology like you have. My generation technology like you have. My generation technology like you have. My generation just just just wasn't really trained in that. wasn't really trained in that. wasn't really trained in that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're happy to see you doing it. >> And we're happy to see you doing it. >> And we're happy to see you doing it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And and I'm at a point in my life where >> And and I'm at a point in my life where >> And and I'm at a point in my life where the the walls are beginning to the the walls are beginning to the the walls are beginning to to come in closer and to come in closer and to come in closer and um you know, at my age, I don't um you know, at my age, I don't um you know, at my age, I don't necessarily do as much international and necessarily do as much international and necessarily do as much international and nationally wide stuff as I had the nationally wide stuff as I had the nationally wide stuff as I had the privilege of doing before.

privilege of doing before. privilege of doing before. So, you know, I I prefer to communicate So, you know, I I prefer to communicate So, you know, I I prefer to communicate with people through the books. with people through the books. with people through the books. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And um >> And um >> And um and go beyond they know your address and and go beyond they know your address and and go beyond they know your address and you can reach me. you can reach me. you can reach me. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] >> Gordon MacDonald, what a gift this has >> Gordon MacDonald, what a gift this has >> Gordon MacDonald, what a gift this has been. Thank you so much. been. Thank you so much. been. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> It's a privilege to have been with you, >> It's a privilege to have been with you, >> It's a privilege to have been with you, Carey. Carey. Carey. >> Oh, that was rich. I heard from so many >> Oh, that was rich. I heard from so many >> Oh, that was rich. I heard from so many people over the years, still to this people over the years, still to this people over the years, still to this day, who have discovered that interview, day, who have discovered that interview, day, who have discovered that interview, which is now, I think, six years old, which is now, I think, six years old, which is now, I think, six years old, and have said, "I cried through the and have said, "I cried through the and have said, "I cried through the whole thing." And I don't know what your whole thing." And I don't know what your whole thing." And I don't know what your reaction was, but I'd love to hear from reaction was, but I'd love to hear from reaction was, but I'd love to hear from you. If you like this idea of reaching you. If you like this idea of reaching you. If you like this idea of reaching into the archives, into the archives, into the archives, uh maybe once or twice a year and just uh maybe once or twice a year and just uh maybe once or twice a year and just pulling out some required listening from pulling out some required listening from pulling out some required listening from this vast treasury of this vast treasury of this vast treasury of conversations that we've had. Let me conversations that we've had. Let me conversations that we've had. Let me know. Again, it's curated list. It's know. Again, it's curated list. It's know. Again, it's curated list. It's stuff I've heard from you. Also, some of stuff I've heard from you. Also, some of stuff I've heard from you. Also, some of my personal faves for you. So, we got my personal faves for you. So, we got my personal faves for you. So, we got two more to go in this series. Both of two more to go in this series. Both of two more to go in this series. Both of them focused on Eugene Peterson. So, them focused on Eugene Peterson. So, them focused on Eugene Peterson. So, that's coming up along with his that's coming up along with his that's coming up along with his biographer Win Collier and his son Eric biographer Win Collier and his son Eric biographer Win Collier and his son Eric Peterson, which gives you a look behind Peterson, which gives you a look behind Peterson, which gives you a look behind the scenes at Eugene's life. And he died the scenes at Eugene's life. And he died the scenes at Eugene's life. And he died 8 years ago now. Wow. Thank you so much 8 years ago now. Wow. Thank you so much 8 years ago now. Wow. Thank you so much for listening. We got show notes for you for listening. We got show notes for you for listening. We got show notes for you inside the Art of Leadership Academy.

inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You enjoy 22,000 other leaders for great You enjoy 22,000 other leaders for great You enjoy 22,000 other leaders for great conversations, these episodes, and a conversations, these episodes, and a conversations, these episodes, and a whole lot more. Sign up for free today whole lot more. Sign up for free today whole lot more. Sign up for free today at the artofleadershipacademy.com. at the artofleadershipacademy.com. at the artofleadershipacademy.com. And if this conversation was helpful, And if this conversation was helpful, And if this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever leave a review or comment wherever leave a review or comment wherever you're listening. Share it with a you're listening. Share it with a you're listening. Share it with a friend. friend. friend. Cuz yeah, this this stuff goes deep, Cuz yeah, this this stuff goes deep, Cuz yeah, this this stuff goes deep, doesn't it? We'll catch you next time on doesn't it? We'll catch you next time on doesn't it? We'll catch you next time on the podcast. I hope our time together the podcast. I hope our time together the podcast. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.