Jim Collins Reveals the Surprising Truth About Business Growth

growth is a result to be managed rather growth is a result to be managed rather than a gigantus more is better goal to than a gigantus more is better goal to than a gigantus more is better goal to pursue if you get into the idea that pursue if you get into the idea that pursue if you get into the idea that growth is the point you've missed the growth is the point you've missed the growth is the point you've missed the point welcome to the K newoff leadership point welcome to the K newoff leadership point welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube Hey something special podcast on YouTube Hey something special podcast on YouTube Hey something special today I have got an exclusive interview today I have got an exclusive interview today I have got an exclusive interview with Jim Collins it's part of my 10th with Jim Collins it's part of my 10th with Jim Collins it's part of my 10th anniversary for the podcast and we talk anniversary for the podcast and we talk anniversary for the podcast and we talk about why growth is a terrible goal how about why growth is a terrible goal how about why growth is a terrible goal how the Mighty Fall like why do such great the Mighty Fall like why do such great the Mighty Fall like why do such great leaders and great companies fall why are leaders and great companies fall why are leaders and great companies fall why are they no longer great and the liability they no longer great and the liability they no longer great and the liability of Charisma did you know that Charisma of Charisma did you know that Charisma of Charisma did you know that Charisma can work against you not just for you can work against you not just for you can work against you not just for you Jim even shares his own personal Jim even shares his own personal Jim even shares his own personal flywheel now a little different we don't flywheel now a little different we don't flywheel now a little different we don't have video Jim's team requested that have video Jim's team requested that have video Jim's team requested that this be an audio only podcast so I'm this be an audio only podcast so I'm this be an audio only podcast so I'm going to disappear and you're just going going to disappear and you're just going going to disappear and you're just going to hear the audio conversation but I to hear the audio conversation but I to hear the audio conversation but I think you're going to love it subscribe think you're going to love it subscribe think you're going to love it subscribe and leave a comment sharing an Insight and leave a comment sharing an Insight and leave a comment sharing an Insight from the conversation thank you so much from the conversation thank you so much from the conversation thank you so much for a great 10 years and now to my for a great 10 years and now to my for a great 10 years and now to my interview with Jim Collins Jim thank you interview with Jim Collins Jim thank you interview with Jim Collins Jim thank you so much for joining us on the podcast I so much for joining us on the podcast I so much for joining us on the podcast I am thrilled to have this am thrilled to have this am thrilled to have this conversation I'm looking forward to it conversation I'm looking forward to it conversation I'm looking forward to it Carrie as uh because you and I have a Carrie as uh because you and I have a Carrie as uh because you and I have a shared interest in a marvelous shared interest in a marvelous shared interest in a marvelous framework we do you know we've been uh framework we do you know we've been uh framework we do you know we've been uh talking about this interview with your talking about this interview with your talking about this interview with your team for a little while and they said team for a little while and they said team for a little while and they said well you know if you did interview Jim well you know if you did interview Jim well you know if you did interview Jim what would you want to talk about and I what would you want to talk about and I what would you want to talk about and I said I don't know whether this works for said I don't know whether this works for said I don't know whether this works for me or against me but my favorite book of me or against me but my favorite book of me or against me but my favorite book of his is how the Mighty Fall and uh I'm his is how the Mighty Fall and uh I'm his is how the Mighty Fall and uh I'm really excited we're going to be able to

really excited we're going to be able to really excited we're going to be able to dig into that so I'd love to start here dig into that so I'd love to start here dig into that so I'd love to start here you know your books are so positive and you know your books are so positive and you know your books are so positive and this is a little bit of a different spin this is a little bit of a different spin this is a little bit of a different spin right it's about what happens when it right it's about what happens when it right it's about what happens when it doesn't go well um what led you to write doesn't go well um what led you to write doesn't go well um what led you to write how the Mighty Fall yeah well so uh how the Mighty Fall yeah well so uh how the Mighty Fall yeah well so uh leading into this I get a couple of leading into this I get a couple of leading into this I get a couple of things and then I'll tell you a little things and then I'll tell you a little things and then I'll tell you a little story sure sure uh that uh ourwork has story sure sure uh that uh ourwork has story sure sure uh that uh ourwork has always actually looked at both sides and always actually looked at both sides and always actually looked at both sides and the you there's been deep method that my the you there's been deep method that my the you there's been deep method that my research Mentor Jerry porus really research Mentor Jerry porus really research Mentor Jerry porus really should get the real credit for all the should get the real credit for all the should get the real credit for all the way back in built to last which was we way back in built to last which was we way back in built to last which was we Jerry had had the Insight that you Jerry had had the Insight that you Jerry had had the Insight that you should always do paired comparisons should always do paired comparisons should always do paired comparisons where you have the company that say where you have the company that say where you have the company that say became great in comparison to a company became great in comparison to a company became great in comparison to a company that was in the same spot same that was in the same spot same that was in the same spot same circumstances same resources same circumstances same resources same circumstances same resources same potential that didn't and you compare potential that didn't and you compare potential that didn't and you compare them over time at slices of history and them over time at slices of history and them over time at slices of history and ask what's different so the research has ask what's different so the research has ask what's different so the research has always had across nearly well more than always had across nearly well more than always had across nearly well more than a quarter Century of research it was a quarter Century of research it was a quarter Century of research it was always based on the comparative contrast always based on the comparative contrast always based on the comparative contrast method so that we had a control but the method so that we had a control but the method so that we had a control but the emphasis was always on how you build a emphasis was always on how you build a emphasis was always on how you build a enduring great company a Visionary enduring great company a Visionary enduring great company a Visionary company or how you take a company from company or how you take a company from company or how you take a company from good to great or how you you how you good to great or how you you how you good to great or how you you how you Prevail in times of uncertainty or chaos Prevail in times of uncertainty or chaos Prevail in times of uncertainty or chaos and so forth but I'd never explicitly and so forth but I'd never explicitly and so forth but I'd never explicitly put the lens on okay let's make the put the lens on okay let's make the put the lens on okay let's make the primary question how great companies primary question how great companies primary question how great companies lose it and what happened is first I'd lose it and what happened is first I'd lose it and what happened is first I'd always been kind of curious about that always been kind of curious about that always been kind of curious about that but this really has a real spark that

but this really has a real spark that but this really has a real spark that came from Joanne uh my wife we've been came from Joanne uh my wife we've been came from Joanne uh my wife we've been married 44 years and congratulations married 44 years and congratulations married 44 years and congratulations it's wonderful and I we got engaged four it's wonderful and I we got engaged four it's wonderful and I we got engaged four days after our first date and I always days after our first date and I always days after our first date and I always sort of describe yeah way back in sort of describe yeah way back in sort of describe yeah way back in college and here we are 44 years later college and here we are 44 years later college and here we are 44 years later tightly bonded together and I always tightly bonded together and I always tightly bonded together and I always sort of describe it in life that you sort of describe it in life that you sort of describe it in life that you know I'm the creative propulsion machine know I'm the creative propulsion machine know I'm the creative propulsion machine but but but strategic guidance mechanism and if it strategic guidance mechanism and if it strategic guidance mechanism and if it weren't for the Strategic guidance weren't for the Strategic guidance weren't for the Strategic guidance mechanism this little creative mechanism this little creative mechanism this little creative propulsion machine would have veered way propulsion machine would have veered way propulsion machine would have veered way off course and probably crashed into a off course and probably crashed into a off course and probably crashed into a cliff at some point so I I was looking cliff at some point so I I was looking cliff at some point so I I was looking at a a particular situation which is at a a particular situation which is at a a particular situation which is that as was expected to happen uh you that as was expected to happen uh you that as was expected to happen uh you know over time not all companies that know over time not all companies that know over time not all companies that were great remain great and a couple of were great remain great and a couple of were great remain great and a couple of companies that had been in my prior companies that had been in my prior companies that had been in my prior research had fallen and it wasn't that research had fallen and it wasn't that research had fallen and it wasn't that they weren't great companies in the they weren't great companies in the they weren't great companies in the historical era that we studied them uh historical era that we studied them uh historical era that we studied them uh that that wasn't an issue uh it was that that that wasn't an issue uh it was that that that wasn't an issue uh it was that what was so really provocative is that what was so really provocative is that what was so really provocative is that they were great and they they were great and they they were great and they fell and uh and and the fact that a fell and uh and and the fact that a fell and uh and and the fact that a prior great company Falls doesn't prior great company Falls doesn't prior great company Falls doesn't invalidate that research the way I think invalidate that research the way I think invalidate that research the way I think about it is if you think about say the about it is if you think about say the about it is if you think about say the great UCLA basketball Dynasty under John great UCLA basketball Dynasty under John great UCLA basketball Dynasty under John Wooden won 10 nc2a championships in 12 Wooden won 10 nc2a championships in 12 Wooden won 10 nc2a championships in 12 years well if the UCL Ali Bruins later

years well if the UCL Ali Bruins later years well if the UCL Ali Bruins later are not the same stature of team as they are not the same stature of team as they are not the same stature of team as they were under wooden well would that were under wooden well would that were under wooden well would that invalidate the principles you learned by invalidate the principles you learned by invalidate the principles you learned by looking at wooden well no they wouldn't looking at wooden well no they wouldn't looking at wooden well no they wouldn't actually the principles of wooden would actually the principles of wooden would actually the principles of wooden would still remain in place if you Veer from still remain in place if you Veer from still remain in place if you Veer from them you're going to fall right and so I them you're going to fall right and so I them you're going to fall right and so I was quite clear on that I wasn't worried was quite clear on that I wasn't worried was quite clear on that I wasn't worried that somehow our our research had become that somehow our our research had become that somehow our our research had become invalid but it but it did raise a very invalid but it but it did raise a very invalid but it but it did raise a very important thing which is Joanne said important thing which is Joanne said important thing which is Joanne said people need to understand how this people need to understand how this people need to understand how this happens you need to understand it and happens you need to understand it and happens you need to understand it and here's the deal Jim you need to write here's the deal Jim you need to write here's the deal Jim you need to write this before someone else does you need this before someone else does you need this before someone else does you need to figure out how this happens before to figure out how this happens before to figure out how this happens before somebody else says oh well you know that somebody else says oh well you know that somebody else says oh well you know that company failed so therefore there was a company failed so therefore there was a company failed so therefore there was a problem with the research and you need problem with the research and you need problem with the research and you need to do a hard work on that and so that's to do a hard work on that and so that's to do a hard work on that and so that's strategic guidance she was absolutely strategic guidance she was absolutely strategic guidance she was absolutely right but what happened as a result is I right but what happened as a result is I right but what happened as a result is I fell in love with the question as fell in love with the question as fell in love with the question as usually happens for me and I just became usually happens for me and I just became usually happens for me and I just became completely fascinated with watching the completely fascinated with watching the completely fascinated with watching the unraveling of those that had actually unraveling of those that had actually unraveling of those that had actually reached real Heights and and here's the reached real Heights and and here's the reached real Heights and and here's the really interesting thing about it Carrie really interesting thing about it Carrie really interesting thing about it Carrie if you look at all the work that I've if you look at all the work that I've if you look at all the work that I've had the privilege to be connected to had the privilege to be connected to had the privilege to be connected to back to built to last with Jer poris and back to built to last with Jer poris and back to built to last with Jer poris and the good to Great project and great by the good to Great project and great by the good to Great project and great by choice and all of these there there are choice and all of these there there are choice and all of these there there are principles in there and I love principles in there and I love principles in there and I love uncovering level five leadership and the uncovering level five leadership and the uncovering level five leadership and the flywheel and all these sorts of things flywheel and all these sorts of things flywheel and all these sorts of things but here's the interesting thing it's

but here's the interesting thing it's but here's the interesting thing it's easier to find a framework of ascent easier to find a framework of ascent easier to find a framework of ascent because there are things you have to do because there are things you have to do because there are things you have to do you have to get the right people on the you have to get the right people on the you have to get the right people on the bus you have to build fly momentum you bus you have to build fly momentum you bus you have to build fly momentum you have to confront the brutal facts there have to confront the brutal facts there have to confront the brutal facts there are things you have to do so the path to are things you have to do so the path to are things you have to do so the path to building something great is fairly building something great is fairly building something great is fairly narrow which in a way means that narrow which in a way means that narrow which in a way means that constructing a framework is a lot easier constructing a framework is a lot easier constructing a framework is a lot easier and so there's lots of ways to fall off and so there's lots of ways to fall off and so there's lots of ways to fall off the path and so given the variety of the path and so given the variety of the path and so given the variety of ways that that could happen it turned ways that that could happen it turned ways that that could happen it turned out that coming up with a com a cohesive out that coming up with a com a cohesive out that coming up with a com a cohesive framework when there's so many ways in framework when there's so many ways in framework when there's so many ways in which organizations can bring about which organizations can bring about which organizations can bring about their own senseless their own senseless their own senseless self-destruction made it one of the most self-destruction made it one of the most self-destruction made it one of the most intellectually stimulating and intellectually stimulating and intellectually stimulating and challenging Journeys because every time challenging Journeys because every time challenging Journeys because every time i' build a framework it would fall apart i' build a framework it would fall apart i' build a framework it would fall apart then i' build the framework and it fall then i' build the framework and it fall then i' build the framework and it fall apart then it build the framework and it apart then it build the framework and it apart then it build the framework and it fall apart and finally when all came fall apart and finally when all came fall apart and finally when all came together the framework was really together the framework was really together the framework was really beautiful and Powerful but boy the beautiful and Powerful but boy the beautiful and Powerful but boy the journey to get there was intellectually journey to get there was intellectually journey to get there was intellectually harder than any other study i' been harder than any other study i' been harder than any other study i' been involved with h hence the affection for involved with h hence the affection for involved with h hence the affection for it I would imagine you know that's it I would imagine you know that's it I would imagine you know that's something that's interesting about your something that's interesting about your something that's interesting about your research Jim and you've said that and research Jim and you've said that and research Jim and you've said that and we'll get to it maybe a little bit later we'll get to it maybe a little bit later we'll get to it maybe a little bit later with level five humility but you are with level five humility but you are with level five humility but you are empirically you're driven by the data empirically you're driven by the data empirically you're driven by the data and there's a lot of us who sort of make and there's a lot of us who sort of make and there's a lot of us who sort of make the data say what we want it to say the data say what we want it to say the data say what we want it to say perhaps from time to time and it's perhaps from time to time and it's perhaps from time to time and it's really quite remarkable that you would really quite remarkable that you would really quite remarkable that you would spend I would assume years saying I spend I would assume years saying I spend I would assume years saying I think we found it and then you look at

think we found it and then you look at think we found it and then you look at more data and go oh that's not it and more data and go oh that's not it and more data and go oh that's not it and then you go back can you talk a little then you go back can you talk a little then you go back can you talk a little bit about that drive around the research bit about that drive around the research bit about that drive around the research and your dedication to making sure that and your dedication to making sure that and your dedication to making sure that you've got a you've got a you've got a provable provable provable framework yeah so it it begins with the framework yeah so it it begins with the framework yeah so it it begins with the fact that I am just Afflicted with fact that I am just Afflicted with fact that I am just Afflicted with curiosity I am just congenitally curious curiosity I am just congenitally curious curiosity I am just congenitally curious I I love questions I love questions that I I love questions I love questions that I I love questions I love questions that I don't know the answer to and and and I don't know the answer to and and and I don't know the answer to and and and for me look if you're going to do a a for me look if you're going to do a a for me look if you're going to do a a massive piece of research and all these massive piece of research and all these massive piece of research and all these are Big research studies I mean Belt to are Big research studies I mean Belt to are Big research studies I mean Belt to last was five years good great was six last was five years good great was six last was five years good great was six years great by choice was nine years the years great by choice was nine years the years great by choice was nine years the new research I'm I'm engaged in took me new research I'm I'm engaged in took me new research I'm I'm engaged in took me 10 years these are big monster studies 10 years these are big monster studies 10 years these are big monster studies and they're they're like moving a and they're they're like moving a and they're they're like moving a mountain with a shovel they're just huge mountain with a shovel they're just huge mountain with a shovel they're just huge and if all you did at the end of that and if all you did at the end of that and if all you did at the end of that was to basically reinforce what you was to basically reinforce what you was to basically reinforce what you thought was true that would be thought was true that would be thought was true that would be incredibly depressing like what's the incredibly depressing like what's the incredibly depressing like what's the point of moving the mountain if all you point of moving the mountain if all you point of moving the mountain if all you do is find what you expect to find the do is find what you expect to find the do is find what you expect to find the whole point of doing research is to be whole point of doing research is to be whole point of doing research is to be surprised is to have is to come out at surprised is to have is to come out at surprised is to have is to come out at the other the other the other end thinking differently than when you end thinking differently than when you end thinking differently than when you went in and what I love is seeing went in and what I love is seeing went in and what I love is seeing through the process I love watching my through the process I love watching my through the process I love watching my brain being brain being brain being re-architected and that for me if I just re-architected and that for me if I just re-architected and that for me if I just was reinforcing what I thought

was reinforcing what I thought was reinforcing what I thought before I wouldn't there's no point to do before I wouldn't there's no point to do before I wouldn't there's no point to do it it would just be like oh I was right it it would just be like oh I was right it it would just be like oh I was right well I know I'm not smart enough just to well I know I'm not smart enough just to well I know I'm not smart enough just to just be right my one of my mentors Peter just be right my one of my mentors Peter just be right my one of my mentors Peter duer was but I'm not I need research so duer was but I'm not I need research so duer was but I'm not I need research so I so I just and I just love I there's I so I just and I just love I there's I so I just and I just love I there's nothing I love more than sitting there nothing I love more than sitting there nothing I love more than sitting there and going huh who would have thought and going huh who would have thought and going huh who would have thought that that that H that's a very different framework than H that's a very different framework than H that's a very different framework than a lot of leaders I know who you know a lot of leaders I know who you know a lot of leaders I know who you know confirmation bias is a real thing but confirmation bias is a real thing but confirmation bias is a real thing but they're kind of like yeah see told you I they're kind of like yeah see told you I they're kind of like yeah see told you I I love this so I'm curious do you I love this so I'm curious do you I love this so I'm curious do you remember I'm sure you might one or two remember I'm sure you might one or two remember I'm sure you might one or two of the framework pieces that fell apart of the framework pieces that fell apart of the framework pieces that fell apart and then Part B of the question is what and then Part B of the question is what and then Part B of the question is what was the finding when you finally found was the finding when you finally found was the finding when you finally found the five stages of the five stages of the five stages of that really you went oh wow I yeah I that really you went oh wow I yeah I that really you went oh wow I yeah I didn't know that that really surprised didn't know that that really surprised didn't know that that really surprised you yeah so a couple things were I would you yeah so a couple things were I would you yeah so a couple things were I would say one of say one of say one of the one of the biggest it's actually a the one of the biggest it's actually a the one of the biggest it's actually a great question I'll think about like great question I'll think about like great question I'll think about like what was trying to rhyme back now to what was trying to rhyme back now to what was trying to rhyme back now to what was most surprising but one one is what was most surprising but one one is what was most surprising but one one is absolutely absolutely absolutely that the idea that the basic kind of that the idea that the basic kind of that the idea that the basic kind of disease would be a form of disease would be a form of disease would be a form of complacency and would tend to think that complacency and would tend to think that complacency and would tend to think that well what happens is is that a company well what happens is is that a company well what happens is is that a company becomes successful and then it becomes becomes successful and then it becomes becomes successful and then it becomes kind of bloated and this happens to kind of bloated and this happens to kind of bloated and this happens to organizations and then they become kind organizations and then they become kind organizations and then they become kind of languid and complacent and and I want

of languid and complacent and and I want of languid and complacent and and I want to be really clear if you're infected to be really clear if you're infected to be really clear if you're infected with the disease of complacency you're with the disease of complacency you're with the disease of complacency you're also going to fall that that that's also going to fall that that that's also going to fall that that that's that's clear but what surprised me is that's clear but what surprised me is that's clear but what surprised me is that in stage two of the framework uh that in stage two of the framework uh that in stage two of the framework uh it's not about complacency only one of it's not about complacency only one of it's not about complacency only one of the companies I studied did I see the companies I studied did I see the companies I studied did I see evidence of that of the ones that fell evidence of that of the ones that fell evidence of that of the ones that fell it's actually overreaching it's the it's actually overreaching it's the it's actually overreaching it's the undisciplined pursuit of more is the undisciplined pursuit of more is the undisciplined pursuit of more is the aggressive pursuit of more growth and aggressive pursuit of more growth and aggressive pursuit of more growth and more bigger and more this and more that more bigger and more this and more that more bigger and more this and more that it was it was the kind of it was almost it was it was the kind of it was almost it was it was the kind of it was almost uh uh it was a is an overdoing it and an uh uh it was a is an overdoing it and an uh uh it was a is an overdoing it and an over aggression and an overexpansion and over aggression and an overexpansion and over aggression and an overexpansion and and that surprised me because you know and that surprised me because you know and that surprised me because you know the normal views all people become you the normal views all people become you the normal views all people become you know successful and complacent and lazy know successful and complacent and lazy know successful and complacent and lazy and then they kind of lose it sure yeah and then they kind of lose it sure yeah and then they kind of lose it sure yeah that'll happen that's not that's not that'll happen that's not that's not that'll happen that's not that's not what that's not the story here and that what that's not the story here and that what that's not the story here and that was very surprising to me and I I was was very surprising to me and I I was was very surprising to me and I I was really trying to figure out where what really trying to figure out where what really trying to figure out where what to do with that in the in the framework to do with that in the in the framework to do with that in the in the framework I think the second thing that really I think the second thing that really I think the second thing that really surprised me is uh well gosh as I kind surprised me is uh well gosh as I kind surprised me is uh well gosh as I kind of think through the framework so many of think through the framework so many of think through the framework so many different aspects of it but but one one different aspects of it but but one one different aspects of it but but one one of the other things that really of the other things that really of the other things that really surprised me that I I kind of expected surprised me that I I kind of expected surprised me that I I kind of expected but I thought was so interesting and how but I thought was so interesting and how but I thought was so interesting and how prevalent it was which is that somewhere prevalent it was which is that somewhere prevalent it was which is that somewhere between stages two and three in every between stages two and three in every between stages two and three in every single case there's a problematic single case there's a problematic single case there's a problematic succession of power and I had always succession of power and I had always succession of power and I had always been you know skeptical of putting too been you know skeptical of putting too been you know skeptical of putting too much emphasis on the single leader going

much emphasis on the single leader going much emphasis on the single leader going all the way back to built to last I mean all the way back to built to last I mean all the way back to built to last I mean the no great company a great the no great company a great the no great company a great organization can be explained by a organization can be explained by a organization can be explained by a single person because they all single person because they all single person because they all eventually uh go away and and and we eventually uh go away and and and we eventually uh go away and and and we were building a company you know this were building a company you know this were building a company you know this CEOs don't last a hundred years so but CEOs don't last a hundred years so but CEOs don't last a hundred years so but companies can companies can companies can so I'd always been skeptical of that but so I'd always been skeptical of that but so I'd always been skeptical of that but uh what I really came to see is uh what I really came to see is uh what I really came to see is something very very clear which is that something very very clear which is that something very very clear which is that while no single leader can make an while no single leader can make an while no single leader can make an organization or company great by himself organization or company great by himself organization or company great by himself or or or herself the wrong single leader vested herself the wrong single leader vested herself the wrong single leader vested with power can bring one with power can bring one with power can bring one down and I didn't expect to see the pro down and I didn't expect to see the pro down and I didn't expect to see the pro pronounced effect of single leaders pronounced effect of single leaders pronounced effect of single leaders being so pronounced powerfully being so pronounced powerfully being so pronounced powerfully potentially on the downside um the the potentially on the downside um the the potentially on the downside um the the third thing I think that really third thing I think that really third thing I think that really surprised me is how far a company can surprised me is how far a company can surprised me is how far a company can fall and come fall and come fall and come back and uh that that really I I mean it back and uh that that really I I mean it back and uh that that really I I mean it what's really striking so you think what's really striking so you think what's really striking so you think about say IBM in the early 1990s yeah about say IBM in the early 1990s yeah about say IBM in the early 1990s yeah they're still around exactly and in fact they're still around exactly and in fact they're still around exactly and in fact I just want to I want to share with you I just want to I want to share with you I just want to I want to share with you something I just I I I pulled it out something I just I I I pulled it out something I just I I I pulled it out because it's just Delight to sort of because it's just Delight to sort of because it's just Delight to sort of illustrate this idea of how far things illustrate this idea of how far things illustrate this idea of how far things can fall I'm going to read you without can fall I'm going to read you without can fall I'm going to read you without telling you the names the name of the telling you the names the name of the telling you the names the name of the company some headlines about a company some headlines about a company some headlines about a particular company back a number of few particular company back a number of few particular company back a number of few decades ago headline the fall of an

decades ago headline the fall of an decades ago headline the fall of an American icon this company once the hip American icon this company once the hip American icon this company once the hip flag bearer of its industry is in sad flag bearer of its industry is in sad flag bearer of its industry is in sad decline related headline stock takes decline related headline stock takes decline related headline stock takes another bruising shares have lost more another bruising shares have lost more another bruising shares have lost more than 75% of their value next headline than 75% of their value next headline than 75% of their value next headline The Incredible Shrinking and then The Incredible Shrinking and then The Incredible Shrinking and then listing the name of the company yeah listing the name of the company yeah listing the name of the company yeah okay you don't know what that company okay you don't know what that company okay you don't know what that company was no idea was no idea was no idea apple right because they almost died apple right because they almost died apple right because they almost died late mid to late 1990s yeah before jobs late mid to late 1990s yeah before jobs late mid to late 1990s yeah before jobs came back right under John Scully they came back right under John Scully they came back right under John Scully they went through sort of intervening years went through sort of intervening years went through sort of intervening years especially between Scully and jobs and especially between Scully and jobs and especially between Scully and jobs and it like right run 96 997 time frame and it like right run 96 997 time frame and it like right run 96 997 time frame and so I mean nobody would guess that that's so I mean nobody would guess that that's so I mean nobody would guess that that's apple right and and they came back and apple right and and they came back and apple right and and they came back and Microsoft was pronounced dead numerous Microsoft was pronounced dead numerous Microsoft was pronounced dead numerous times and they're they're thriving right times and they're they're thriving right times and they're they're thriving right now they're definitely thriving uh so now they're definitely thriving uh so now they're definitely thriving uh so it's I think that I was surprised at it's I think that I was surprised at it's I think that I was surprised at how I mean the signature of greatness is how I mean the signature of greatness is how I mean the signature of greatness is not an unblemished record right it's not not an unblemished record right it's not not an unblemished record right it's not Perfection it's Perfection it's Perfection it's the ability to come back from sometimes the ability to come back from sometimes the ability to come back from sometimes even right on the edge of five stage even right on the edge of five stage even right on the edge of five stage five and come back even stronger than five and come back even stronger than five and come back even stronger than before and uh but well I was very before and uh but well I was very before and uh but well I was very surprised about how far how far they can surprised about how far how far they can surprised about how far how far they can fall and come back and that was a

fall and come back and that was a fall and come back and that was a uplifting finding actually because if uplifting finding actually because if uplifting finding actually because if you if the company organization found you if the company organization found you if the company organization found themselves way late in stage four to themselves way late in stage four to themselves way late in stage four to know that there is in fact well-founded know that there is in fact well-founded know that there is in fact well-founded hope based on actual historical evidence hope based on actual historical evidence hope based on actual historical evidence that it is not inevitable that you go that it is not inevitable that you go that it is not inevitable that you go all the way to stage five was a all the way to stage five was a all the way to stage five was a wonderful wonderful finding well and wonderful wonderful finding well and wonderful wonderful finding well and that's good news for you know most of that's good news for you know most of that's good news for you know most of our listeners to this show are church our listeners to this show are church our listeners to this show are church leaders as you knew when you took the leaders as you knew when you took the leaders as you knew when you took the interview and if you look at the interview and if you look at the interview and if you look at the landscape of America I mean you've landscape of America I mean you've landscape of America I mean you've spoken at churches before you spoke for spoken at churches before you spoke for spoken at churches before you spoke for years at the Global Leadership Summit I years at the Global Leadership Summit I years at the Global Leadership Summit I hope you hope you do it again in the hope you hope you do it again in the hope you hope you do it again in the future Jim and you know America is future Jim and you know America is future Jim and you know America is littered and the West is littered with littered and the West is littered with littered and the West is littered with churches that are in stage five like and churches that are in stage five like and churches that are in stage five like and we'll go through the stages in just a we'll go through the stages in just a we'll go through the stages in just a minute and what you know church planting minute and what you know church planting minute and what you know church planting is a big thing Church growth is a big is a big thing Church growth is a big is a big thing Church growth is a big thing but Church revitalization thing but Church revitalization thing but Church revitalization absolutely needs to happen in our absolutely needs to happen in our absolutely needs to happen in our lifetime and hopefully this will be some lifetime and hopefully this will be some lifetime and hopefully this will be some hope along the way just so we can frame hope along the way just so we can frame hope along the way just so we can frame people I realize you know not people I realize you know not people I realize you know not everybody's read the book do you mind everybody's read the book do you mind everybody's read the book do you mind walking through the five stages and then walking through the five stages and then walking through the five stages and then maybe we can break those down little by maybe we can break those down little by maybe we can break those down little by little I've got them handy if it's little I've got them handy if it's little I've got them handy if it's easier for me to do it or if you've got easier for me to do it or if you've got easier for me to do it or if you've got them I um uh let me give a sort of a uh them I um uh let me give a sort of a uh them I um uh let me give a sort of a uh an overview of them and uh let me uh let an overview of them and uh let me uh let an overview of them and uh let me uh let me lead into it first of all with sort me lead into it first of all with sort me lead into it first of all with sort of an overall picture if you will and of an overall picture if you will and of an overall picture if you will and then quickly hit the five stages so then quickly hit the five stages so then quickly hit the five stages so people have got the context of this people have got the context of this people have got the context of this there's a very interesting thing that

there's a very interesting thing that there's a very interesting thing that jumped out when you look across the five jumped out when you look across the five jumped out when you look across the five stages which is that you can be you stages which is that you can be you stages which is that you can be you don't actually visibly fall where the don't actually visibly fall where the don't actually visibly fall where the where the world in the outside can see where the world in the outside can see where the world in the outside can see that you have fallen until stage four that you have fallen until stage four that you have fallen until stage four so you actually go through the first so you actually go through the first so you actually go through the first three of five stages looking healthy on three of five stages looking healthy on three of five stages looking healthy on the the the outside but you're already sick on the outside but you're already sick on the outside but you're already sick on the inside and so just as an kind of a big inside and so just as an kind of a big inside and so just as an kind of a big picture frame that's why this is so picture frame that's why this is so picture frame that's why this is so scary because you could be well down the scary because you could be well down the scary because you could be well down the path into the stages of Decline and path into the stages of Decline and path into the stages of Decline and everybody's still saying You're great everybody's still saying You're great everybody's still saying You're great and maybe you're convincing yourself and maybe you're convincing yourself and maybe you're convincing yourself you're great and so that's just the you're great and so that's just the you're great and so that's just the overall meta point about how the overall meta point about how the overall meta point about how the framework works so stage one is huis framework works so stage one is huis framework works so stage one is huis born of success and it's not success born of success and it's not success born of success and it's not success there's no there's no uh definitive rule there's no there's no uh definitive rule there's no there's no uh definitive rule that says that if a company has been that says that if a company has been that says that if a company has been successful it inevitably has to they successful it inevitably has to they successful it inevitably has to they then be come mediocre or less successful then be come mediocre or less successful then be come mediocre or less successful because of reversion to the mean you because of reversion to the mean you because of reversion to the mean you don't have to revert to other people's don't have to revert to other people's don't have to revert to other people's means you might revert to your own so if means you might revert to your own so if means you might revert to your own so if you're an 800 meter Runner that can run you're an 800 meter Runner that can run you're an 800 meter Runner that can run a 14 2 800 meter uh and uh that doesn't a 14 2 800 meter uh and uh that doesn't a 14 2 800 meter uh and uh that doesn't mean that well because you can do that mean that well because you can do that mean that well because you can do that you're going to revert to the average of you're going to revert to the average of you're going to revert to the average of 215 for other Runners I mean you might 215 for other Runners I mean you might 215 for other Runners I mean you might revert to your own mean if you had a revert to your own mean if you had a revert to your own mean if you had a really good day and then revert to your really good day and then revert to your really good day and then revert to your own mean right so there's no there's no own mean right so there's no there's no own mean right so there's no there's no basic law that says that if you rise to

basic law that says that if you rise to basic law that says that if you rise to certain Heights inevitably that one must certain Heights inevitably that one must certain Heights inevitably that one must go down the other side think about a go down the other side think about a go down the other side think about a company like Walmart today I mean it's company like Walmart today I mean it's company like Walmart today I mean it's still uh uh cranking along all these still uh uh cranking along all these still uh uh cranking along all these years after Sam Walton found it at way years after Sam Walton found it at way years after Sam Walton found it at way back with this first dime score in 1945 back with this first dime score in 1945 back with this first dime score in 1945 so uh I don't know what the future holds so uh I don't know what the future holds so uh I don't know what the future holds but it's been a pretty long run right so but it's been a pretty long run right so but it's been a pretty long run right so there's so success does not inevitably there's so success does not inevitably there's so success does not inevitably lead to failure it's when that success lead to failure it's when that success lead to failure it's when that success is coupled with the huus that flows from is coupled with the huus that flows from is coupled with the huus that flows from success and this is the idea the great success and this is the idea the great success and this is the idea the great Classics Professor Jay ruus feres Classics Professor Jay ruus feres Classics Professor Jay ruus feres defined hubus in a way that I love which defined hubus in a way that I love which defined hubus in a way that I love which is outrageous arrogance that inflicts is outrageous arrogance that inflicts is outrageous arrogance that inflicts suffering on the innocent and isn't that suffering on the innocent and isn't that suffering on the innocent and isn't that a great definition of hub fantastic yeah a great definition of hub fantastic yeah a great definition of hub fantastic yeah exactly and that that comes from Jay exactly and that that comes from Jay exactly and that that comes from Jay ruers fears uh Classics courses and but ruers fears uh Classics courses and but ruers fears uh Classics courses and but but but the idea basically that it's but but the idea basically that it's but but the idea basically that it's when the arrogance comes in the hubris when the arrogance comes in the hubris when the arrogance comes in the hubris that comes in from success that then that comes in from success that then that comes in from success that then leads to stage two and this is the sort leads to stage two and this is the sort leads to stage two and this is the sort of transition where it's the of transition where it's the of transition where it's the undisciplined pursuit of more and the undisciplined pursuit of more and the undisciplined pursuit of more and the undisciplined pursuit of more it can undisciplined pursuit of more it can undisciplined pursuit of more it can shows up in many ways it often shows up shows up in many ways it often shows up shows up in many ways it often shows up an undisciplined pursuit of growth it an undisciplined pursuit of growth it an undisciplined pursuit of growth it can uh show up in undisciplined big bets can uh show up in undisciplined big bets can uh show up in undisciplined big bets that don't have any calibration behind that don't have any calibration behind that don't have any calibration behind them it can grow up in the lack of them it can grow up in the lack of them it can grow up in the lack of discipline to make sure that your growth discipline to make sure that your growth discipline to make sure that your growth is constrained by having enough of the is constrained by having enough of the is constrained by having enough of the right people to execute on that growth right people to execute on that growth right people to execute on that growth uh brilliantly uh it can also just begin uh brilliantly uh it can also just begin uh brilliantly uh it can also just begin to show up in increasing loss of to show up in increasing loss of to show up in increasing loss of discipline whereas you try to rein in

discipline whereas you try to rein in discipline whereas you try to rein in the chaos of all that pursuit of More the chaos of all that pursuit of More the chaos of all that pursuit of More You Begin by installing forms of kind of You Begin by installing forms of kind of You Begin by installing forms of kind of bureaucratic constraint rather than bureaucratic constraint rather than bureaucratic constraint rather than doubling down on we need doubling down on we need doubling down on we need self-disciplined people who don't need self-disciplined people who don't need self-disciplined people who don't need that kind of uh bureaucracy so all these that kind of uh bureaucracy so all these that kind of uh bureaucracy so all these kind of form together and somewhere kind of form together and somewhere kind of form together and somewhere between there in stage two and three is between there in stage two and three is between there in stage two and three is this uh thing that often happens or this uh thing that often happens or this uh thing that often happens or happened in every case we looked at happened in every case we looked at happened in every case we looked at which is a problematic succession of which is a problematic succession of which is a problematic succession of power then you go to stage three so that power then you go to stage three so that power then you go to stage three so that so you've got huis point of success so you've got huis point of success so you've got huis point of success undisciplined pursuit of more stage undisciplined pursuit of more stage undisciplined pursuit of more stage three is denial of risk and Peril now in three is denial of risk and Peril now in three is denial of risk and Peril now in this stage what happens is warning signs this stage what happens is warning signs this stage what happens is warning signs start to accumulate there's whether it start to accumulate there's whether it start to accumulate there's whether it be storm clouds in the outside world be storm clouds in the outside world be storm clouds in the outside world whether it be your own internal sense whether it be your own internal sense whether it be your own internal sense for things whether it be that your for things whether it be that your for things whether it be that your constituents are unhappy whether it be constituents are unhappy whether it be constituents are unhappy whether it be that you're losing some key people and that you're losing some key people and that you're losing some key people and you can't quite figure out why uh you can't quite figure out why uh you can't quite figure out why uh whether it be that you've taken some whether it be that you've taken some whether it be that you've taken some really big risky bets and you actually really big risky bets and you actually really big risky bets and you actually don't know the outcome of them yet and don't know the outcome of them yet and don't know the outcome of them yet and if they go badly it's going to hurt you if they go badly it's going to hurt you if they go badly it's going to hurt you really uh severely I mean there's a really uh severely I mean there's a really uh severely I mean there's a whole bunch of different ways but what whole bunch of different ways but what whole bunch of different ways but what happens in stage three is well the Peril happens in stage three is well the Peril happens in stage three is well the Peril is is is mounting the the response to to it is mounting the the response to to it is mounting the the response to to it is denial uh and it's Denial in the form of denial uh and it's Denial in the form of denial uh and it's Denial in the form of well it's just a temporary economic blip well it's just a temporary economic blip well it's just a temporary economic blip or uh that wasn't really our fault or we or uh that wasn't really our fault or we or uh that wasn't really our fault or we got a stroke of bad luck or I mean any got a stroke of bad luck or I mean any got a stroke of bad luck or I mean any number of different ways that's not number of different ways that's not number of different ways that's not really true that's not really true really true that's not really true really true that's not really true exactly that's what I read in that

exactly that's what I read in that exactly that's what I read in that chapter it's like yeah that's not really chapter it's like yeah that's not really chapter it's like yeah that's not really true that's not really true and and the true that's not really true and and the true that's not really true and and the whistleblowers or the the the people whistleblowers or the the the people whistleblowers or the the the people that are bringing you the advice that that are bringing you the advice that that are bringing you the advice that hey you want to look at this they just hey you want to look at this they just hey you want to look at this they just get dismissed exactly what happens is get dismissed exactly what happens is get dismissed exactly what happens is you get really good at like the the folk you get really good at like the the folk you get really good at like the the folk they get start getting isolated and then they get start getting isolated and then they get start getting isolated and then they leave yeah many times so and then they leave yeah many times so and then they leave yeah many times so and then if you don't actually and then you blame if you don't actually and then you blame if you don't actually and then you blame them for leaving rather than saying them for leaving rather than saying them for leaving rather than saying there's information in that right what's there's information in that right what's there's information in that right what's the information so stage three is denial the information so stage three is denial the information so stage three is denial of risk and Peril and then you're on the of risk and Peril and then you're on the of risk and Peril and then you're on the cusa stage four if that lasts long cusa stage four if that lasts long cusa stage four if that lasts long enough and this is when it all kind of enough and this is when it all kind of enough and this is when it all kind of comes home the risk come go badly the comes home the risk come go badly the comes home the risk come go badly the Peril becomes you know something that is Peril becomes you know something that is Peril becomes you know something that is a real decline you you're in Decline a real decline you you're in Decline a real decline you you're in Decline there's no question about it whether there's no question about it whether there's no question about it whether you're falling in terms of whether it be you're falling in terms of whether it be you're falling in terms of whether it be in a company's case it's economic in a company's case it's economic in a company's case it's economic conditions it's marketing conditions it conditions it's marketing conditions it conditions it's marketing conditions it could be your membership whatever it could be your membership whatever it could be your membership whatever it happens to be but there's no denying happens to be but there's no denying happens to be but there's no denying anymore that we're falling but it's not anymore that we're falling but it's not anymore that we're falling but it's not the fall that is stage four uh it is uh the fall that is stage four uh it is uh the fall that is stage four uh it is uh grasping for and I'll put in parenthesis grasping for and I'll put in parenthesis grasping for and I'll put in parenthesis secular salvation here so and the church secular salvation here so and the church secular salvation here so and the church Community will call it grasping for Community will call it grasping for Community will call it grasping for secular salvation and that happens and secular salvation and that happens and secular salvation and that happens and what it is is it's looking for you know what it is is it's looking for you know what it is is it's looking for you know you begin you react and overreact with a you begin you react and overreact with a you begin you react and overreact with a series of kind of semi- panicky moves series of kind of semi- panicky moves series of kind of semi- panicky moves and you basically say uh oh gosh we just and you basically say uh oh gosh we just and you basically say uh oh gosh we just need a savior leader who's going to come need a savior leader who's going to come need a savior leader who's going to come in and fix it or uh we need to we need

in and fix it or uh we need to we need in and fix it or uh we need to we need to merge with somebody else or we need to merge with somebody else or we need to merge with somebody else or we need to place a big bet on an unproven to place a big bet on an unproven to place a big bet on an unproven technology or we need a cultural trans technology or we need a cultural trans technology or we need a cultural trans information or we need programs or we information or we need programs or we information or we need programs or we need you know change initiatives or need you know change initiatives or need you know change initiatives or whatever these things are right they're whatever these things are right they're whatever these things are right they're kind of Silver Bullet type things and kind of Silver Bullet type things and kind of Silver Bullet type things and and what happens is the thing that makes and what happens is the thing that makes and what happens is the thing that makes stage four really hard is that those stage four really hard is that those stage four really hard is that those things often produce an upward things often produce an upward things often produce an upward blip but it doesn't have the staying blip but it doesn't have the staying blip but it doesn't have the staying power so you inflect down again so it's power so you inflect down again so it's power so you inflect down again so it's it's it's hopes dashed hopes dashed it's it's hopes dashed hopes dashed it's it's hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed hopes dashed and every time that happens you erode and every time that happens you erode and every time that happens you erode vital forms of capital whether that be vital forms of capital whether that be vital forms of capital whether that be Financial Capital cultural capital uh Financial Capital cultural capital uh Financial Capital cultural capital uh whatever sort of different it can be whatever sort of different it can be whatever sort of different it can be soft Capital hard Capital but it erodes soft Capital hard Capital but it erodes soft Capital hard Capital but it erodes it every time and there's nothing that it every time and there's nothing that it every time and there's nothing that begins to corrode more than a series of begins to corrode more than a series of begins to corrode more than a series of false hopes dashed by events as false hopes dashed by events as false hopes dashed by events as Churchill would put it and then if you Churchill would put it and then if you Churchill would put it and then if you do that long enough eventually you go do that long enough eventually you go do that long enough eventually you go right onto the cup of stage five and right onto the cup of stage five and right onto the cup of stage five and stage five is the one that you never stage five is the one that you never stage five is the one that you never come back from and that's capitulation come back from and that's capitulation come back from and that's capitulation to irrelevance or death and this is to irrelevance or death and this is to irrelevance or death and this is when you just can't come back it could when you just can't come back it could when you just can't come back it could be you know either you just you merge be you know either you just you merge be you know either you just you merge with someone else you you outright die with someone else you you outright die with someone else you you outright die as a as an organization uh you run out as a as an organization uh you run out as a as an organization uh you run out of cash I mean it just basically you're of cash I mean it just basically you're of cash I mean it just basically you're gone and and any real sense of having

gone and and any real sense of having gone and and any real sense of having been there and then it's it's game over been there and then it's it's game over been there and then it's it's game over so those are the the five St ages uh and so those are the the five St ages uh and so those are the the five St ages uh and and let me just actually Carrie now that and let me just actually Carrie now that and let me just actually Carrie now that we've run through them and you've come we've run through them and you've come we've run through them and you've come at this from the from from the church at this from the from from the church at this from the from from the church World let me just pause for a moment if World let me just pause for a moment if World let me just pause for a moment if you don't mind I'd be as I've sort of you don't mind I'd be as I've sort of you don't mind I'd be as I've sort of run through those and you've read the run through those and you've read the run through those and you've read the work um can you share with me how that work um can you share with me how that work um can you share with me how that looks through the church world right looks through the church world right looks through the church world right because I I you were drawn to this because I I you were drawn to this because I I you were drawn to this because of your experience but as I because of your experience but as I because of your experience but as I describe those stages how what have you describe those stages how what have you describe those stages how what have you seen and how does this come to life in seen and how does this come to life in seen and how does this come to life in the world of churches so I think people the world of churches so I think people the world of churches so I think people are people Jim and one of the things are people Jim and one of the things are people Jim and one of the things that I think makes this such a an that I think makes this such a an that I think makes this such a an important work and why I keep rereading important work and why I keep rereading important work and why I keep rereading it by the way uh leaders this is 125 it by the way uh leaders this is 125 it by the way uh leaders this is 125 Pages you can read this in an afternoon Pages you can read this in an afternoon Pages you can read this in an afternoon it's not it's not I love the brevity of it's not it's not I love the brevity of it's not it's not I love the brevity of it and the succinctness of it so to it and the succinctness of it so to it and the succinctness of it so to answer your question answer your question answer your question Jim I think there was a period in my Jim I think there was a period in my Jim I think there was a period in my leadership where we were growing so fast leadership where we were growing so fast leadership where we were growing so fast and a bit at it for about a decade where and a bit at it for about a decade where and a bit at it for about a decade where I think the seeds of stage 1 2 and three I think the seeds of stage 1 2 and three I think the seeds of stage 1 2 and three were in my leadership we never ended up were in my leadership we never ended up were in my leadership we never ended up grasping for salvation or capitulating grasping for salvation or capitulating grasping for salvation or capitulating to irrelevance or death we didn't start to irrelevance or death we didn't start to irrelevance or death we didn't start to decline but when I read it it was to decline but when I read it it was to decline but when I read it it was like a just in time medicine and I think like a just in time medicine and I think like a just in time medicine and I think you know four and five are really good you know four and five are really good you know four and five are really good for churches that are in Decline when for churches that are in Decline when for churches that are in Decline when you see churches that are like 50 people you see churches that are like 50 people you see churches that are like 50 people for 50 years right it's like wow the

for 50 years right it's like wow the for 50 years right it's like wow the writing is on the wall and that's writing is on the wall and that's writing is on the wall and that's Biblical reference like what are we Biblical reference like what are we Biblical reference like what are we going to do what are we going to do and going to do what are we going to do and going to do what are we going to do and so you see that but for we have a lot of so you see that but for we have a lot of so you see that but for we have a lot of growth-minded leaders and leaders who growth-minded leaders and leaders who growth-minded leaders and leaders who are part of a growing Church in the are part of a growing Church in the are part of a growing Church in the business sphere you know they go there business sphere you know they go there business sphere you know they go there on the weekend they're on the Elder on the weekend they're on the Elder on the weekend they're on the Elder board or we have church Planters and board or we have church Planters and board or we have church Planters and people who are revitalizing churches people who are revitalizing churches people who are revitalizing churches listen and what I find Jim is success is listen and what I find Jim is success is listen and what I find Jim is success is intoxicating I mean we're learning a lot intoxicating I mean we're learning a lot intoxicating I mean we're learning a lot about the brain over the last 15 20 about the brain over the last 15 20 about the brain over the last 15 20 years you get the dopamine hits and it years you get the dopamine hits and it years you get the dopamine hits and it is you know like to be 10 years into is you know like to be 10 years into is you know like to be 10 years into this podcast you doing the 10 like that this podcast you doing the 10 like that this podcast you doing the 10 like that is en toxicating and so I think that is en toxicating and so I think that is en toxicating and so I think that leads to a hubris born of success and leads to a hubris born of success and leads to a hubris born of success and perhaps downplaying Good Fortune luck perhaps downplaying Good Fortune luck perhaps downplaying Good Fortune luck Providence Etc taking a little too much Providence Etc taking a little too much Providence Etc taking a little too much credit um undisciplined pursuit of more credit um undisciplined pursuit of more credit um undisciplined pursuit of more where that shows up in the church world where that shows up in the church world where that shows up in the church world and we're going through a really and we're going through a really and we're going through a really interesting correction right now is uh interesting correction right now is uh interesting correction right now is uh the creation of of what we've called the creation of of what we've called the creation of of what we've called multi-site over the last 20 years 25 multi-site over the last 20 years 25 multi-site over the last 20 years 25 years and that is a church as one years and that is a church as one years and that is a church as one location but there's a lot of people so location but there's a lot of people so location but there's a lot of people so you open a second location a third you open a second location a third you open a second location a third location a fourth location a fifth location a fourth location a fifth location a fourth location a fifth location and sometimes the constraints location and sometimes the constraints location and sometimes the constraints aren't there to make you go wait a aren't there to make you go wait a aren't there to make you go wait a minute what is this about what does this minute what is this about what does this minute what is this about what does this look like and so what's happening to a look like and so what's happening to a look like and so what's happening to a lot of churches right now particularly lot of churches right now particularly lot of churches right now particularly after succession after that next leader after succession after that next leader after succession after that next leader the leader who built it all is was a the leader who built it all is was a the leader who built it all is was a boomer and is now stepping out is a boomer and is now stepping out is a boomer and is now stepping out is a millennial walks in and goes okay we millennial walks in and goes okay we millennial walks in and goes okay we don't need five campuses we don't need don't need five campuses we don't need don't need five campuses we don't need eight campuses what were we thinking eight campuses what were we thinking eight campuses what were we thinking there's only 50 people who attend this

there's only 50 people who attend this there's only 50 people who attend this one campus and they're having to one campus and they're having to one campus and they're having to constrain so that's there's that constrain so that's there's that constrain so that's there's that undisciplined pursuit of more that's undisciplined pursuit of more that's undisciplined pursuit of more that's constant Temptation in my life I've seen constant Temptation in my life I've seen constant Temptation in my life I've seen it in other leaders as well and then it in other leaders as well and then it in other leaders as well and then denial of risk and Peril I mean you know denial of risk and Peril I mean you know denial of risk and Peril I mean you know one of the things I'm I'm going to work one of the things I'm I'm going to work one of the things I'm I'm going to work for a couple of years on is something on for a couple of years on is something on for a couple of years on is something on Church culture and trying to make it Church culture and trying to make it Church culture and trying to make it healthier but this is this is a very healthier but this is this is a very healthier but this is this is a very poorly kept secret in church world that poorly kept secret in church world that poorly kept secret in church world that leaders can be very difficult senior leaders can be very difficult senior leaders can be very difficult senior leaders can be very difficult to leaders can be very difficult to leaders can be very difficult to approach and you know the worst part is approach and you know the worst part is approach and you know the worst part is and we talked about this in other and we talked about this in other and we talked about this in other episodes on this podcast is we episodes on this podcast is we episodes on this podcast is we spiritualize it so Jim if you come to me spiritualize it so Jim if you come to me spiritualize it so Jim if you come to me I'm the lead Pastor you're an elder or I'm the lead Pastor you're an elder or I'm the lead Pastor you're an elder or you're you know on my staff and you're you're you know on my staff and you're you're you know on my staff and you're like hey Carrie I'm just noticing you like hey Carrie I'm just noticing you like hey Carrie I'm just noticing you know I don't see momentum like I used to know I don't see momentum like I used to know I don't see momentum like I used to these people are a little bit upset I'm these people are a little bit upset I'm these people are a little bit upset I'm like ah Jim you know don't even worry like ah Jim you know don't even worry like ah Jim you know don't even worry about it we're fine you know and you about it we're fine you know and you about it we're fine you know and you keep up that and then all of a sudden keep up that and then all of a sudden keep up that and then all of a sudden you're disloyal all of a sudden you're you're disloyal all of a sudden you're you're disloyal all of a sudden you're and then we'll spiritualize it and say and then we'll spiritualize it and say and then we'll spiritualize it and say well God isn't speaking through you Jim well God isn't speaking through you Jim well God isn't speaking through you Jim which you know is a form of spiritual which you know is a form of spiritual which you know is a form of spiritual abuse I think and we have to be so abuse I think and we have to be so abuse I think and we have to be so careful so I see it playing out in those careful so I see it playing out in those careful so I see it playing out in those spheres and even though you're a spheres and even though you're a spheres and even though you're a Christian and even though you really Christian and even though you really Christian and even though you really love God it doesn't mean that you're love God it doesn't mean that you're love God it doesn't mean that you're exempt from these Temptations not not in exempt from these Temptations not not in exempt from these Temptations not not in the least so does that help at all give the least so does that help at all give the least so does that help at all give you a little framework and I'm I want to you a little framework and I'm I want to you a little framework and I'm I want to make an observation and then uh make an observation and then uh make an observation and then uh something you said and then I I want to something you said and then I I want to something you said and then I I want to ask you a follow-up question um but uh ask you a follow-up question um but uh ask you a follow-up question um but uh you were talking about this thing about you were talking about this thing about you were talking about this thing about perhaps church leaders can be hard to

perhaps church leaders can be hard to perhaps church leaders can be hard to approach mhm one of the things that uh I approach mhm one of the things that uh I approach mhm one of the things that uh I I noticed when whether they be I noticed when whether they be I noticed when whether they be comparison companies in our prior comparison companies in our prior comparison companies in our prior research or in the denial of risk and research or in the denial of risk and research or in the denial of risk and Peril part of the how the Mighty Fall Peril part of the how the Mighty Fall Peril part of the how the Mighty Fall framework there's this really dangerous framework there's this really dangerous framework there's this really dangerous moment when the primary reality that moment when the primary reality that moment when the primary reality that people inside an organization worry and people inside an organization worry and people inside an organization worry and think about is the reality of the leader think about is the reality of the leader think about is the reality of the leader meaning how's the leader going to react meaning how's the leader going to react meaning how's the leader going to react yeah as if that's as if that's reality yeah as if that's as if that's reality yeah as if that's as if that's reality as if you know and that for them might as if you know and that for them might as if you know and that for them might actually be the reality of their lives actually be the reality of their lives actually be the reality of their lives the reality of eggshells right the the reality of eggshells right the the reality of eggshells right the reality of their their the reality of reality of their their the reality of reality of their their the reality of their day-to-day life is that that their day-to-day life is that that their day-to-day life is that that leader reactions leader reactions leader reactions behaviors uh tone is the reality they're behaviors uh tone is the reality they're behaviors uh tone is the reality they're living with Mo you know daytoday and if living with Mo you know daytoday and if living with Mo you know daytoday and if and if in fact they're principally and if in fact they're principally and if in fact they're principally managing that reality managing that reality managing that reality what's happened is the reality of that what's happened is the reality of that what's happened is the reality of that Leader's Leader's Leader's Behavior has all of a sudden Behavior has all of a sudden Behavior has all of a sudden replaced real replaced real replaced real reality because real reality is what's reality because real reality is what's reality because real reality is what's actually happening what's actually actually happening what's actually actually happening what's actually happening in our relationship to the happening in our relationship to the happening in our relationship to the external Community what's actually external Community what's actually external Community what's actually happening in terms of how well we're happening in terms of how well we're happening in terms of how well we're executing and when the leader becomes executing and when the leader becomes executing and when the leader becomes the reality rather than reality being the reality rather than reality being the reality rather than reality being the reality that is really a turning

the reality that is really a turning the reality that is really a turning point point point wow I think that might be a particular wow I think that might be a particular wow I think that might be a particular poison in the church you know one of the poison in the church you know one of the poison in the church you know one of the things I wanted to explore with you you things I wanted to explore with you you things I wanted to explore with you you know particularly around level five know particularly around level five know particularly around level five humility but it probably ties directly humility but it probably ties directly humility but it probably ties directly into stage three denial of risk and into stage three denial of risk and into stage three denial of risk and Peril is you know leaders are depending Peril is you know leaders are depending Peril is you know leaders are depending on your tradition seen as anointed by on your tradition seen as anointed by on your tradition seen as anointed by God or you know special Etc I always God or you know special Etc I always God or you know special Etc I always tried to downplay that I'm like hey I tried to downplay that I'm like hey I tried to downplay that I'm like hey I got called into this late in the game got called into this late in the game got called into this late in the game I'm just like you my prayers don't go I'm just like you my prayers don't go I'm just like you my prayers don't go direct okay they go the same way yours direct okay they go the same way yours direct okay they go the same way yours do Jim When you pray so you know I I've do Jim When you pray so you know I I've do Jim When you pray so you know I I've I've I'm not of that tradition but you I've I'm not of that tradition but you I've I'm not of that tradition but you know if you're a leader and you've got know if you're a leader and you've got know if you're a leader and you've got momentum people seem to momentum people seem to momentum people seem to inherently respect the pastor and want inherently respect the pastor and want inherently respect the pastor and want to follow the pastor and so I think that to follow the pastor and so I think that to follow the pastor and so I think that is an occupational hazard in Ministry is an occupational hazard in Ministry is an occupational hazard in Ministry and then when you put a microphone on and then when you put a microphone on and then when you put a microphone on every week and you've got 40 45 minutes every week and you've got 40 45 minutes every week and you've got 40 45 minutes of uninterrupted screen time atten I of uninterrupted screen time atten I of uninterrupted screen time atten I time you know giving a keynote you know time you know giving a keynote you know time you know giving a keynote you know which no CEO really has with their which no CEO really has with their which no CEO really has with their organization I think you fall into uh organization I think you fall into uh organization I think you fall into uh double trouble with that scenario it's double trouble with that scenario it's double trouble with that scenario it's it's a it's a tremendous amount of power it's a it's a tremendous amount of power it's a it's a tremendous amount of power and Charisma around one particular and Charisma around one particular and Charisma around one particular leader that can lead to that hubris born leader that can lead to that hubris born leader that can lead to that hubris born of success and denial of risk and Peril of success and denial of risk and Peril of success and denial of risk and Peril plus the undisciplined pursuit of more plus the undisciplined pursuit of more plus the undisciplined pursuit of more can I I just want to actually want I can I I just want to actually want I can I I just want to actually want I want to share Story related to this with

want to share Story related to this with want to share Story related to this with uh with with someone and a leader that I uh with with someone and a leader that I uh with with someone and a leader that I admire greatly who overcame the admire greatly who overcame the admire greatly who overcame the liability of Charisma and and and I liability of Charisma and and and I liability of Charisma and and and I really do view it that way often people really do view it that way often people really do view it that way often people think that well Charisma is a is think that well Charisma is a is think that well Charisma is a is fundamentally a li an asset right not a fundamentally a li an asset right not a fundamentally a li an asset right not a liability and my research has led me to liability and my research has led me to liability and my research has led me to the conclusion that Charisma is at least the conclusion that Charisma is at least the conclusion that Charisma is at least as much a liabilities and asset because as much a liabilities and asset because as much a liabilities and asset because here's the deal if I have here's the deal if I have here's the deal if I have Charisma through I can look at you I can Charisma through I can look at you I can Charisma through I can look at you I can take my blue eyes and I can Pierce them take my blue eyes and I can Pierce them take my blue eyes and I can Pierce them through you and I can bring a sense of through you and I can bring a sense of through you and I can bring a sense of Just Energy and intensity and draw you Just Energy and intensity and draw you Just Energy and intensity and draw you in and I can convince you that I am in and I can convince you that I am in and I can convince you that I am right even if I'm wrong wow but if on right even if I'm wrong wow but if on right even if I'm wrong wow but if on the other hand I lack charisma the other hand I lack charisma the other hand I lack charisma well then I actually have to win my well then I actually have to win my well then I actually have to win my argument on the merits of the argument on the merits of the argument on the merits of the case because I don't have that power of case because I don't have that power of case because I don't have that power of personality of persuasion I have to get personality of persuasion I have to get personality of persuasion I have to get you to want to do what must be done you to want to do what must be done you to want to do what must be done through the actual logic and evidence through the actual logic and evidence through the actual logic and evidence and calm rational approach and so what and calm rational approach and so what and calm rational approach and so what Charisma is very very Charisma is very very Charisma is very very dangerous because you can so easily dangerous because you can so easily dangerous because you can so easily convince people you're right when you're convince people you're right when you're convince people you're right when you're not so if you are one of these people

not so if you are one of these people not so if you are one of these people that has Charisma and has always thought that has Charisma and has always thought that has Charisma and has always thought of it as an asset I simply ask you to of it as an asset I simply ask you to of it as an asset I simply ask you to consider the possibility that it is as consider the possibility that it is as consider the possibility that it is as much a liability to be managed as it is much a liability to be managed as it is much a liability to be managed as it is an asset to exploit now the story I want an asset to exploit now the story I want an asset to exploit now the story I want to share with this is uh Sam to share with this is uh Sam to share with this is uh Sam Walton and I Sam is one of the great Walton and I Sam is one of the great Walton and I Sam is one of the great level five leaders we studied him in to level five leaders we studied him in to level five leaders we studied him in to last founded Walmart with a single Dime last founded Walmart with a single Dime last founded Walmart with a single Dime Store in the Southeast and after about Store in the Southeast and after about Store in the Southeast and after about five years he had two dime stores and five years he had two dime stores and five years he had two dime stores and just kept building uh from there and it just kept building uh from there and it just kept building uh from there and it was a long slow process initially of was a long slow process initially of was a long slow process initially of kind of adding a dime store roughly kind of adding a dime store roughly kind of adding a dime store roughly every few years and eventually got the every few years and eventually got the every few years and eventually got the the superstore concept and then that was the superstore concept and then that was the superstore concept and then that was 1962 first Walmart and then began 1962 first Walmart and then began 1962 first Walmart and then began building F will momentum from there and building F will momentum from there and building F will momentum from there and of course Sam Walton was not unlike many of course Sam Walton was not unlike many of course Sam Walton was not unlike many of the people who might lead churches he of the people who might lead churches he of the people who might lead churches he had tremendous Charisma and he had tremendous Charisma and he had tremendous Charisma and he understood that the power of that he understood that the power of that he understood that the power of that he actually would lead something that would actually would lead something that would actually would lead something that would be a little less like a business meeting be a little less like a business meeting be a little less like a business meeting and more like a Revival session or and more like a Revival session or and more like a Revival session or something when they would do the something when they would do the something when they would do the Saturday morning meetings and he would Saturday morning meetings and he would Saturday morning meetings and he would jump up on trucks and get all excited jump up on trucks and get all excited jump up on trucks and get all excited about things so about things so about things so but notice a couple of things the first

but notice a couple of things the first but notice a couple of things the first is that Walmart went well past is that Walmart went well past is that Walmart went well past Sam and he always wanted that to happen Sam and he always wanted that to happen Sam and he always wanted that to happen he never wanted it to be that Walmart he never wanted it to be that Walmart he never wanted it to be that Walmart would fall after he was there but he would fall after he was there but he would fall after he was there but he also all the way also all the way also all the way along would always model for his people along would always model for his people along would always model for his people that there was something to learn from that there was something to learn from that there was something to learn from others and you should never no matter others and you should never no matter others and you should never no matter how successful you are take that as a how successful you are take that as a how successful you are take that as a valid that you're doing everything right valid that you're doing everything right valid that you're doing everything right and there's this story where they went and there's this story where they went and there's this story where they went to the they would always go visit to the they would always go visit to the they would always go visit competitor stores and they you know go competitor stores and they you know go competitor stores and they you know go into the parking lot and count how many into the parking lot and count how many into the parking lot and count how many cars they are and they'd go into the cars they are and they'd go into the cars they are and they'd go into the store and they'd measure aisles and store and they'd measure aisles and store and they'd measure aisles and whatever right they're trying to go in whatever right they're trying to go in whatever right they're trying to go in and they went to I don't remember which and they went to I don't remember which and they went to I don't remember which chain they went to or what store they chain they went to or what store they chain they went to or what store they went to but some of his Executives came went to but some of his Executives came went to but some of his Executives came out and they were laughing like oh can out and they were laughing like oh can out and they were laughing like oh can you believe how bad they did this and you believe how bad they did this and you believe how bad they did this and they you know how terrible that is and they you know how terrible that is and they you know how terrible that is and whatever and Sam said you go back in whatever and Sam said you go back in whatever and Sam said you go back in that store right that store right that store right now and you come out with a half a dozen now and you come out with a half a dozen now and you come out with a half a dozen or whatever the number was things that or whatever the number was things that or whatever the number was things that they do better than us and don't come they do better than us and don't come they do better than us and don't come out until you do now that was Sam Walton right he do now that was Sam Walton right he would have never laughed at a competitor would have never laughed at a competitor would have never laughed at a competitor he would have said I can learn something he would have said I can learn something he would have said I can learn something from them deep humility there's that level them deep humility there's that level five humility absolutely totally did you five humility absolutely totally did you five humility absolutely totally did you spend time I'm not sure about the spend time I'm not sure about the spend time I'm not sure about the timelines did you spend time personally timelines did you spend time personally timelines did you spend time personally with Sam or I did not uh I so Sam was uh with Sam or I did not uh I so Sam was uh with Sam or I did not uh I so Sam was uh towards the end of his life when we were

towards the end of his life when we were towards the end of his life when we were doing I wondered about that yeah blast doing I wondered about that yeah blast doing I wondered about that yeah blast and I I the closest I got to Sam was a and I I the closest I got to Sam was a and I I the closest I got to Sam was a wonderful little story though uh that wonderful little story though uh that wonderful little story though uh that happened I was teaching in the executive happened I was teaching in the executive happened I was teaching in the executive program at Stanford and I it was folks program at Stanford and I it was folks program at Stanford and I it was folks CEO Executives from around the world and CEO Executives from around the world and CEO Executives from around the world and was doing the research on built to last was doing the research on built to last was doing the research on built to last and I was did kind of a preview of what and I was did kind of a preview of what and I was did kind of a preview of what would being built class in the front row would being built class in the front row would being built class in the front row where there was this Brazilian executive where there was this Brazilian executive where there was this Brazilian executive his name is Geor Pao lemman who has his name is Geor Pao lemman who has his name is Geor Pao lemman who has since become one of the really dear since become one of the really dear since become one of the really dear enduring great friends of my life and enduring great friends of my life and enduring great friends of my life and Geor Paulo uh and I got into an argument Geor Paulo uh and I got into an argument Geor Paulo uh and I got into an argument because I was using Walmart as an because I was using Walmart as an because I was using Walmart as an example and I sort of argue it was sort example and I sort of argue it was sort example and I sort of argue it was sort of saying this is how you kind of want of saying this is how you kind of want of saying this is how you kind of want to think about Walmart and and and Georg to think about Walmart and and and Georg to think about Walmart and and and Georg Pao says hi I'm not I don't really see Pao says hi I'm not I don't really see Pao says hi I'm not I don't really see it that way and we went and I said well it that way and we went and I said well it that way and we went and I said well we've done the research and then George we've done the research and then George we've done the research and then George Pao said well Sam's a friend of mine and Pao said well Sam's a friend of mine and Pao said well Sam's a friend of mine and so and so you know so we ended up we so and so you know so we ended up we so and so you know so we ended up we ended up becoming dear friends out of ended up becoming dear friends out of ended up becoming dear friends out of this but he told me this story about how this but he told me this story about how this but he told me this story about how he became friends with Sam Walton and he became friends with Sam Walton and he became friends with Sam Walton and things that happened which is that they things that happened which is that they things that happened which is that they came out of came out of came out of Brazil and they had bought a discount Brazil and they had bought a discount Brazil and they had bought a discount retailing company in Brazil and they retailing company in Brazil and they retailing company in Brazil and they didn't really know much about discount didn't really know much about discount didn't really know much about discount retailing so they wanted to learn how to retailing so they wanted to learn how to retailing so they wanted to learn how to do it and they sent letters to like the do it and they sent letters to like the do it and they sent letters to like the retailing CEOs in America like 10 of retailing CEOs in America like 10 of retailing CEOs in America like 10 of them them them all but all but Sam either just declined all but all but Sam either just declined all but all but Sam either just declined to say please come up and we'll be happy to say please come up and we'll be happy to say please come up and we'll be happy to show you how this works and or didn't

to show you how this works and or didn't to show you how this works and or didn't reply at all Sam said sure come on up reply at all Sam said sure come on up reply at all Sam said sure come on up and so Georgie paollo tells me the story and so Georgie paollo tells me the story and so Georgie paollo tells me the story as they they fly up from from Brazil and as they they fly up from from Brazil and as they they fly up from from Brazil and they land in Bentonville Arkansas and they land in Bentonville Arkansas and they land in Bentonville Arkansas and Sam shows up in his truck with his dog Sam shows up in his truck with his dog Sam shows up in his truck with his dog Roy and drives them around and and and Roy and drives them around and and and Roy and drives them around and and and you know they're standing at night doing you know they're standing at night doing you know they're standing at night doing dishes together and these these these dishes together and these these these dishes together and these these these Brazilian tycoons and but Geor Pao said Brazilian tycoons and but Geor Pao said Brazilian tycoons and but Geor Pao said you know what I realized was after about you know what I realized was after about you know what I realized was after about two days all he did was ask us two days all he did was ask us two days all he did was ask us [Music] [Music] [Music] questions and I finally realized he questions and I finally realized he questions and I finally realized he invited us up here to learn that's that was Sam learn that's that was Sam Walton so that's where I want to drill Walton so that's where I want to drill Walton so that's where I want to drill down on because the overlap between down on because the overlap between down on because the overlap between level five humility uh and the huis born level five humility uh and the huis born level five humility uh and the huis born of success it's just such an interesting of success it's just such an interesting of success it's just such an interesting Dov tale and I think you know if you Dov tale and I think you know if you Dov tale and I think you know if you look at church growth I mean there look at church growth I mean there look at church growth I mean there weren't too many churches of a thousand weren't too many churches of a thousand weren't too many churches of a thousand and listen let me preface this by saying and listen let me preface this by saying and listen let me preface this by saying I know some of the pastors quite well of I know some of the pastors quite well of I know some of the pastors quite well of the largest churches in America they're the largest churches in America they're the largest churches in America they're not all arrogant I mean some of them not all arrogant I mean some of them not all arrogant I mean some of them have Dee rooted humility very discipline have Dee rooted humility very discipline have Dee rooted humility very discipline pursuit of growth um no denial of risk pursuit of growth um no denial of risk pursuit of growth um no denial of risk and Peril I mean they're they're Stellar and Peril I mean they're they're Stellar and Peril I mean they're they're Stellar people with great character on the other people with great character on the other people with great character on the other hand we also have uh you know more than hand we also have uh you know more than hand we also have uh you know more than a baker's dozen of of you know leaders a baker's dozen of of you know leaders a baker's dozen of of you know leaders who maybe could learn from this and I'm

who maybe could learn from this and I'm who maybe could learn from this and I'm always checking my internal motivations always checking my internal motivations always checking my internal motivations because I realize oh you know Pride because I realize oh you know Pride because I realize oh you know Pride goeth before fall you know when you goeth before fall you know when you goeth before fall you know when you think about level five humility and what think about level five humility and what think about level five humility and what you found about the hubris born of you found about the hubris born of you found about the hubris born of success uh I want to go back to what you success uh I want to go back to what you success uh I want to go back to what you found in good and great when again the found in good and great when again the found in good and great when again the re Arch I've heard you tell this story re Arch I've heard you tell this story re Arch I've heard you tell this story you write about this story but the you write about this story but the you write about this story but the research suggested this level five research suggested this level five research suggested this level five humility and tell us about your initial humility and tell us about your initial humility and tell us about your initial reaction to what your team had to say reaction to what your team had to say reaction to what your team had to say and how that could possibly be a factor and how that could possibly be a factor and how that could possibly be a factor in enduring greatness yeah so as I in enduring greatness yeah so as I in enduring greatness yeah so as I mentioned earlier I have I I began my mentioned earlier I have I I began my mentioned earlier I have I I began my journey into all of this in being journey into all of this in being journey into all of this in being somewhat skeptical of putting much somewhat skeptical of putting much somewhat skeptical of putting much emphasis on leadership and it's kind of emphasis on leadership and it's kind of emphasis on leadership and it's kind of ironic because in the years since I've ironic because in the years since I've ironic because in the years since I've become known as a as a somebody who become known as a as a somebody who become known as a as a somebody who knows a little bit about leadership and knows a little bit about leadership and knows a little bit about leadership and I even held a two-year chair at the I even held a two-year chair at the I even held a two-year chair at the United States Military Academy at West United States Military Academy at West United States Military Academy at West Point was the distinguished chair for Point was the distinguished chair for Point was the distinguished chair for the study of leadership funded by the the study of leadership funded by the the study of leadership funded by the class of 1951 so it's just here I go to class of 1951 so it's just here I go to class of 1951 so it's just here I go to the one of the one of the world's the one of the one of the world's the one of the one of the world's greatest leadership development greatest leadership development greatest leadership development institutions in the world to work on the institutions in the world to work on the institutions in the world to work on the question of leadership and I'm had question of leadership and I'm had question of leadership and I'm had originally started by not even believing originally started by not even believing originally started by not even believing in the idea can I can I ask you why why in the idea can I can I ask you why why in the idea can I can I ask you why why were you of leadership what made you were you of leadership what made you were you of leadership what made you think it can't be leadership when you think it can't be leadership when you think it can't be leadership when you were starting this whole journey yeah I were starting this whole journey yeah I were starting this whole journey yeah I would say that it was more skepticism would say that it was more skepticism would say that it was more skepticism than it was just saying it couldn't be than it was just saying it couldn't be than it was just saying it couldn't be but I would I was very very skeptical but I would I was very very skeptical but I would I was very very skeptical but I'll tell you why I was very

but I'll tell you why I was very but I'll tell you why I was very skeptical I was very skeptical for for U skeptical I was very skeptical for for U skeptical I was very skeptical for for U because I have a historical lens and because I have a historical lens and because I have a historical lens and everything that I do and I if you look everything that I do and I if you look everything that I do and I if you look over a long enough period of time you over a long enough period of time you over a long enough period of time you cannot explain enduring organizations cannot explain enduring organizations cannot explain enduring organizations through a single leader and I'll never through a single leader and I'll never through a single leader and I'll never forget the beginning of of built to last forget the beginning of of built to last forget the beginning of of built to last research Jerry research Jerry research Jerry porus and I was you know we were talking porus and I was you know we were talking porus and I was you know we were talking about things and he just said I have a about things and he just said I have a about things and he just said I have a question for you Jim who who's the question for you Jim who who's the question for you Jim who who's the Visionary leader of Visionary leader of Visionary leader of 3M I said I have no idea he said that's 3M I said I have no idea he said that's 3M I said I have no idea he said that's kind of the point don't you think and kind of the point don't you think and kind of the point don't you think and and he said you I think there's a thing and he said you I think there's a thing and he said you I think there's a thing he said we we want to change a frame he said we we want to change a frame he said we we want to change a frame which is we put so much emphasis in which is we put so much emphasis in which is we put so much emphasis in today's world on a Visionary leader but today's world on a Visionary leader but today's world on a Visionary leader but they're pretty perishable so what if they're pretty perishable so what if they're pretty perishable so what if there's such a thing called a Visionary there's such a thing called a Visionary there's such a thing called a Visionary organization and that's what really organization and that's what really organization and that's what really spawned spawned spawned buil to last and and so I really came to buil to last and and so I really came to buil to last and and so I really came to see that it was the companies that see that it was the companies that see that it was the companies that overemphasize the dependence on a single overemphasize the dependence on a single overemphasize the dependence on a single leader that were much more our leader that were much more our leader that were much more our comparison companies and even Sam who comparison companies and even Sam who comparison companies and even Sam who was you know look at what happened with was you know look at what happened with was you know look at what happened with Walmart after he left it with with a lot Walmart after he left it with with a lot Walmart after he left it with with a lot of things in place we could go through of things in place we could go through of things in place we could go through lots of CEOs in history where they set lots of CEOs in history where they set lots of CEOs in history where they set it up to be fabulous Beyond them Steve it up to be fabulous Beyond them Steve it up to be fabulous Beyond them Steve Jobs did it too in his he went to level Jobs did it too in his he went to level Jobs did it too in his he went to level five and so I I uh I was skeptical from five and so I I uh I was skeptical from five and so I I uh I was skeptical from that standpoint plus also I have a a that standpoint plus also I have a a that standpoint plus also I have a a deep love affair for our country and as deep love affair for our country and as deep love affair for our country and as part of that love affair for our country part of that love affair for our country part of that love affair for our country I

I I have always been fascinated with the uh have always been fascinated with the uh have always been fascinated with the uh formulation of the country in the formulation of the country in the formulation of the country in the Constitution and the United States Constitution and the United States Constitution and the United States Constitution being something where if Constitution being something where if Constitution being something where if you think about the founding of the you think about the founding of the you think about the founding of the United States with all of our flaws but United States with all of our flaws but United States with all of our flaws but the whole idea was we don't need to have the whole idea was we don't need to have the whole idea was we don't need to have rise and fall depending upon we have rise and fall depending upon we have rise and fall depending upon we have whether we have the hereditary good luck whether we have the hereditary good luck whether we have the hereditary good luck of a king of a good King we can create a of a king of a good King we can create a of a king of a good King we can create a system that accounts for all of our system that accounts for all of our system that accounts for all of our human fra trees has the potential to human fra trees has the potential to human fra trees has the potential to change with the amendment mechanism and change with the amendment mechanism and change with the amendment mechanism and has a structure to work within and we has a structure to work within and we has a structure to work within and we talked back in built to last about you talked back in built to last about you talked back in built to last about you don't want to be a time teller you want don't want to be a time teller you want don't want to be a time teller you want to be a clock Builder well folks who to be a clock Builder well folks who to be a clock Builder well folks who wrote the Constitution were clock wrote the Constitution were clock wrote the Constitution were clock Builders they were clock building and so Builders they were clock building and so Builders they were clock building and so I came at the world with the idea that I came at the world with the idea that I came at the world with the idea that you don't want to be the charismatic you don't want to be the charismatic you don't want to be the charismatic time teller you want to be the clock time teller you want to be the clock time teller you want to be the clock Builder and and so when we started good Builder and and so when we started good Builder and and so when we started good to great I said to the research team to great I said to the research team to great I said to the research team just to be really clear we're not going just to be really clear we're not going just to be really clear we're not going to have a leadership answer in this book to have a leadership answer in this book to have a leadership answer in this book I know everybody's going to want to be I know everybody's going to want to be I know everybody's going to want to be like it's about the leader and what did like it's about the leader and what did like it's about the leader and what did the leader do and I'm like first of all the leader do and I'm like first of all the leader do and I'm like first of all it's boring second it's uh I mean it's boring second it's uh I mean it's boring second it's uh I mean because it's just kind of like it's such because it's just kind of like it's such because it's just kind of like it's such a trite answer and I thought and if we a trite answer and I thought and if we a trite answer and I thought and if we think it's that then that's all we're think it's that then that's all we're think it's that then that's all we're going to find I don't want to let's going to find I don't want to let's going to find I don't want to let's let's actually look and see what's much let's actually look and see what's much let's actually look and see what's much more under the hood more under the hood more under the hood and what happened is and what happened is and what happened is my very strong views about this I came my very strong views about this I came my very strong views about this I came in one day and the whole research team in one day and the whole research team in one day and the whole research team had kind of joined had kind of joined had kind of joined hands and they said today Jim is the day

hands and they said today Jim is the day hands and they said today Jim is the day we've decided to tell you that you're we've decided to tell you that you're we've decided to tell you that you're wrong said about what and they said wrong said about what and they said wrong said about what and they said about this anti- leadership bias that about this anti- leadership bias that about this anti- leadership bias that you have we've been studying as you've you have we've been studying as you've you have we've been studying as you've asked us to do very deeply the the good asked us to do very deeply the the good asked us to do very deeply the the good great cases and you'll be going through great cases and you'll be going through great cases and you'll be going through all data with us and so forth and all data with us and so forth and all data with us and so forth and there's no way you can remove the leader there's no way you can remove the leader there's no way you can remove the leader that was there at that time of that was there at that time of that was there at that time of inflection from the story it would be inflection from the story it would be inflection from the story it would be irresponsible to the data and you always irresponsible to the data and you always irresponsible to the data and you always tell us Jim pay attention to the data tell us Jim pay attention to the data tell us Jim pay attention to the data not to not to not to you so we invoke that here today you're you so we invoke that here today you're you so we invoke that here today you're wrong and so I said well let me just ask wrong and so I said well let me just ask wrong and so I said well let me just ask you a question how do you explain the you a question how do you explain the you a question how do you explain the comparison companies because didn't they comparison companies because didn't they comparison companies because didn't they also have leaders and I went to the also have leaders and I went to the also have leaders and I went to the little whiteboard and I said it's just little whiteboard and I said it's just little whiteboard and I said it's just like an algebraic you know simple ratio like an algebraic you know simple ratio like an algebraic you know simple ratio where if you have the same variable in where if you have the same variable in where if you have the same variable in the numerator as in the denominator the the numerator as in the denominator the the numerator as in the denominator the variable crosses out so in we have variable crosses out so in we have variable crosses out so in we have leadership in the good to Great leadership in the good to Great leadership in the good to Great companies but guess what we also had it companies but guess what we also had it companies but guess what we also had it in the comparison companies often very in the comparison companies often very in the comparison companies often very charismatic leadership so we have charismatic leadership so we have charismatic leadership so we have leadership in the numerator leadership leadership in the numerator leadership leadership in the numerator leadership in the denominator leadership crosses in the denominator leadership crosses in the denominator leadership crosses out leadership therefore doesn't you out leadership therefore doesn't you out leadership therefore doesn't you know distinguish it's an irrelevant know distinguish it's an irrelevant know distinguish it's an irrelevant variable and I put down the little variable and I put down the little variable and I put down the little marking pen and sat down and said no marking pen and sat down and said no marking pen and sat down and said no let's go back to work and do something let's go back to work and do something let's go back to work and do something useful and and so this was great because useful and and so this was great because useful and and so this was great because I love there's nothing love more than I love there's nothing love more than I love there's nothing love more than having really smart young people around having really smart young people around having really smart young people around me who really don't care what I me who really don't care what I me who really don't care what I think and they pushed back and they said think and they pushed back and they said think and they pushed back and they said and they marshaled a really strong and they marshaled a really strong and they marshaled a really strong case but what they then said and this be

case but what they then said and this be case but what they then said and this be this was the power of having a great this was the power of having a great this was the power of having a great research team of people following the research team of people following the research team of people following the data not me they said you're right that data not me they said you're right that data not me they said you're right that both sets of companies had both sets of companies had both sets of companies had leaders but there's something leaders but there's something leaders but there's something different about the good to great different about the good to great different about the good to great leaders they From a Different leaders they From a Different leaders they From a Different Cloth that was interesting and that was Cloth that was interesting and that was Cloth that was interesting and that was the seed and what happened is we came to the seed and what happened is we came to the seed and what happened is we came to see that the good the great companies see that the good the great companies see that the good the great companies had level five leaders as we came to had level five leaders as we came to had level five leaders as we came to call them the comparison companies had call them the comparison companies had call them the comparison companies had level four leaders and so it wasn't level four leaders and so it wasn't level four leaders and so it wasn't leadership or not it was the difference leadership or not it was the difference leadership or not it was the difference between five and four and the difference between five and four and the difference between five and four and the difference between the five and the four was the between the five and the four was the between the five and the four was the great surprise great surprise great surprise it was their it was their it was their humility and it was a humility combined humility and it was a humility combined humility and it was a humility combined with a fierce ferocious with a fierce ferocious with a fierce ferocious will on behalf of what it was they were will on behalf of what it was they were will on behalf of what it was they were leading leading leading and that was for me a major turning and that was for me a major turning and that was for me a major turning point and it happened because we point and it happened because we point and it happened because we followed where the evidence went and followed where the evidence went and followed where the evidence went and I've spent the last that probably I've spent the last that probably I've spent the last that probably happened 25 years ago now see yeah more happened 25 years ago now see yeah more happened 25 years ago now see yeah more than yeah 25 years ago that meeting than yeah 25 years ago that meeting than yeah 25 years ago that meeting probably happened and in the last 25 probably happened and in the last 25 probably happened and in the last 25 years I've just gained kind of deeper years I've just gained kind of deeper years I've just gained kind of deeper layers of understanding about what level layers of understanding about what level layers of understanding about what level five is really all about I think that's five is really all about I think that's five is really all about I think that's really what I want to drill down on a really what I want to drill down on a really what I want to drill down on a little bit because you know you've got a little bit because you know you've got a little bit because you know you've got a picture of Sam Walton showing up in his

picture of Sam Walton showing up in his picture of Sam Walton showing up in his pickup truck with Old Roy next to him pickup truck with Old Roy next to him pickup truck with Old Roy next to him and they're doing dishes at his house and they're doing dishes at his house and they're doing dishes at his house there's no Entourage there's no security there's no Entourage there's no security there's no Entourage there's no security detail there's no you know media team detail there's no you know media team detail there's no you know media team following him around and I know it was a following him around and I know it was a following him around and I know it was a different era but when you look at the different era but when you look at the different era but when you look at the world in 2024 today and you know I I I'm world in 2024 today and you know I I I'm world in 2024 today and you know I I I'm very concerned about the huis born of very concerned about the huis born of very concerned about the huis born of success and also would aspire to have a success and also would aspire to have a success and also would aspire to have a humility that would Accord with my faith humility that would Accord with my faith humility that would Accord with my faith and you know being a better leader what and you know being a better leader what and you know being a better leader what are some of the attributes or are some of the attributes or are some of the attributes or characteristics of a level five leader characteristics of a level five leader characteristics of a level five leader with that kind of humility that you with that kind of humility that you with that kind of humility that you notice in the world today yeah so first notice in the world today yeah so first notice in the world today yeah so first I I want to share something that uh I I want to share something that uh I I want to share something that uh uh that I I want to let me first I guess uh that I I want to let me first I guess uh that I I want to let me first I guess put a little shading put a little shading put a little shading on kind of what I don't mean by it or or on kind of what I don't mean by it or or on kind of what I don't mean by it or or sort of filling it out sort of filling it out sort of filling it out because it it's not about necessarily because it it's not about necessarily because it it's not about necessarily the package if you will that it that it the package if you will that it that it the package if you will that it that it comes in the range of personalities that comes in the range of personalities that comes in the range of personalities that you see in level five lers is immense so you see in level five lers is immense so you see in level five lers is immense so if you take two really if you take two really if you take two really great uh level five great uh level five great uh level five CEOs from American history kathern CEOs from American history kathern CEOs from American history kathern Graham of the Washington Post and an M Graham of the Washington Post and an M Graham of the Washington Post and an M of Xerox right about an mil pulling of Xerox right about an mil pulling of Xerox right about an mil pulling Xerox out of a tail spin and how the Xerox out of a tail spin and how the Xerox out of a tail spin and how the Mighty Fall how they she got it out of Mighty Fall how they she got it out of Mighty Fall how they she got it out of stage five if you look at these two stage five if you look at these two stage five if you look at these two level five leaders they're both level

level five leaders they're both level level five leaders they're both level five but their personalities were really five but their personalities were really five but their personalities were really really different I mean MLK is kind of really different I mean MLK is kind of really different I mean MLK is kind of magnetic she walks in the room the magnetic she walks in the room the magnetic she walks in the room the lights would just sort of go up even if lights would just sort of go up even if lights would just sort of go up even if you didn't flip the switch I mean you you didn't flip the switch I mean you you didn't flip the switch I mean you just had a certain magnetism you just just had a certain magnetism you just just had a certain magnetism you just felt better when you were in AML kah's felt better when you were in AML kah's felt better when you were in AML kah's uh presence so she's got Charisma she uh presence so she's got Charisma she uh presence so she's got Charisma she did have Charisma yes and tremendous did have Charisma yes and tremendous did have Charisma yes and tremendous humility so you can be a level five with humility so you can be a level five with humility so you can be a level five with Charisma she's a really good example of Charisma she's a really good example of Charisma she's a really good example of that and she very charismatic level five that and she very charismatic level five that and she very charismatic level five uh kathern Graham uh was much more of a uh kathern Graham uh was much more of a uh kathern Graham uh was much more of a sort of serious character she had a sort of serious character she had a sort of serious character she had a wonderful laugh and a great sense of wonderful laugh and a great sense of wonderful laugh and a great sense of humor but but she uh was much more sort humor but but she uh was much more sort humor but but she uh was much more sort of reserved and and and almost more of reserved and and and almost more of reserved and and and almost more patrici and and her kind of whole patrici and and her kind of whole patrici and and her kind of whole demeanor would have been very different demeanor would have been very different demeanor would have been very different than than in mahes and kathern Graham than than in mahes and kathern Graham than than in mahes and kathern Graham for example was much more uh likely to for example was much more uh likely to for example was much more uh likely to say change people and and remove them if say change people and and remove them if say change people and and remove them if they weren't doing well whereas AML he they weren't doing well whereas AML he they weren't doing well whereas AML he would tend to really invest in would tend to really invest in would tend to really invest in developing people if they weren't doing developing people if they weren't doing developing people if they weren't doing well there were they were different kind well there were they were different kind well there were they were different kind of personality approaches to things but of personality approaches to things but of personality approaches to things but they were both level five so my point they were both level five so my point they were both level five so my point there is that don't get hung up on kind there is that don't get hung up on kind there is that don't get hung up on kind of the external packaging it's not about of the external packaging it's not about of the external packaging it's not about that and also here's the other thing that and also here's the other thing that and also here's the other thing this actually came up with somebody who this actually came up with somebody who this actually came up with somebody who was at a lab obsession with me and had was at a lab obsession with me and had was at a lab obsession with me and had had was really puzzled on level five had was really puzzled on level five had was really puzzled on level five because of a church pastor it was because of a church pastor it was because of a church pastor it was somebody who it wasn't in the church somebody who it wasn't in the church somebody who it wasn't in the church world but he attended a particular world but he attended a particular world but he attended a particular church he said trying to reconcile this church he said trying to reconcile this church he said trying to reconcile this with my pastor and he said I think he with my pastor and he said I think he with my pastor and he said I think he has humility but on the other hand

has humility but on the other hand has humility but on the other hand there's certain aspects of just he's so there's certain aspects of just he's so there's certain aspects of just he's so strongly clear about what we should do strongly clear about what we should do strongly clear about what we should do and what I realize is and I think about and what I realize is and I think about and what I realize is and I think about like my wife Joanna I mentioned earlier like my wife Joanna I mentioned earlier like my wife Joanna I mentioned earlier who's so strategically clear she just who's so strategically clear she just who's so strategically clear she just brilliantly clear about things sometimes people confuse Clarity things sometimes people confuse Clarity with clear and and uh really can see clear and and uh really can see strategically profoundly the the the strategically profoundly the the the strategically profoundly the the the through line that doesn't mean you're through line that doesn't mean you're through line that doesn't mean you're arrogant it just means you're clear arrogant it just means you're clear arrogant it just means you're clear and so don't and so if somebody's just and so don't and so if somebody's just and so don't and so if somebody's just really clear it may not mean that really clear it may not mean that really clear it may not mean that they're arrogant they just might be five they're arrogant they just might be five they're arrogant they just might be five steps ahead of you that that's is steps ahead of you that that's is steps ahead of you that that's is possible right uh so what is the other possible right uh so what is the other possible right uh so what is the other side of it side of it side of it and first of all it is not just the and first of all it is not just the and first of all it is not just the humility it is the combination of the humility it is the combination of the humility it is the combination of the humility and the will that is the Crux humility and the will that is the Crux humility and the will that is the Crux of level five it is that you have a you of level five it is that you have a you of level five it is that you have a you I mentioned kathern Graham earlier she I mentioned kathern Graham earlier she I mentioned kathern Graham earlier she clearly had the level five humility she clearly had the level five humility she clearly had the level five humility she had the window in the mirror as any had the window in the mirror as any had the window in the mirror as any level five would have which is when level five would have which is when level five would have which is when things go well they're really good at things go well they're really good at things go well they're really good at pointing out the window to factors other pointing out the window to factors other pointing out the window to factors other than themselves about how they were than themselves about how they were than themselves about how they were lucky about how conditions serve them lucky about how conditions serve them lucky about how conditions serve them well about how the wonderful people well about how the wonderful people well about how the wonderful people around them help things happen and when around them help things happen and when around them help things happen and when things go badly they're really good at things go badly they're really good at things go badly they're really good at standing in front of the mirror and standing in front of the mirror and standing in front of the mirror and saying I'm responsible versus the

saying I'm responsible versus the saying I'm responsible versus the non-level fives who do the opposite non-level fives who do the opposite non-level fives who do the opposite things go well they look in the mirror things go well they look in the mirror things go well they look in the mirror I'm really good and when things go badly I'm really good and when things go badly I'm really good and when things go badly they point out the window and say it they point out the window and say it they point out the window and say it wasn't me uh kathern Graham clearly had wasn't me uh kathern Graham clearly had wasn't me uh kathern Graham clearly had the right relationship to the window and the right relationship to the window and the right relationship to the window and the mirror she was a voracious learner the mirror she was a voracious learner the mirror she was a voracious learner when Warren Buffett invested in her when Warren Buffett invested in her when Warren Buffett invested in her company she said I'm going to make company she said I'm going to make company she said I'm going to make Warren Buffett who wasn't well known at Warren Buffett who wasn't well known at Warren Buffett who wasn't well known at the time my teacher and he would bring the time my teacher and he would bring the time my teacher and he would bring 20 annual reports and from different 20 annual reports and from different 20 annual reports and from different companies and then she would have to companies and then she would have to companies and then she would have to read them and report back and they would read them and report back and they would read them and report back and they would have Socratic discussions about what was have Socratic discussions about what was have Socratic discussions about what was in them she was just a voracious student in them she was just a voracious student in them she was just a voracious student always always always learning and always always always always learning and always always always always learning and always thinking of herself as a leader in thinking of herself as a leader in thinking of herself as a leader in development rather than a leader that is development rather than a leader that is development rather than a leader that is made but the flip side of kathern Graham made but the flip side of kathern Graham made but the flip side of kathern Graham is the will when it came to the moment is the will when it came to the moment is the will when it came to the moment of whether to publish the Pentagon of whether to publish the Pentagon of whether to publish the Pentagon papers and pretty much everyone around papers and pretty much everyone around papers and pretty much everyone around her told her not her told her not her told her not to including as I understand that her to including as I understand that her to including as I understand that her board chair who said well I I guess I board chair who said well I I guess I board chair who said well I I guess I wouldn't and her thought was well he wouldn't and her thought was well he wouldn't and her thought was well he didn't say didn't say didn't say no and and then but but she she wanted no and and then but but she she wanted no and and then but but she she wanted the Washington Post is she she got it the Washington Post is she she got it the Washington Post is she she got it from her it was a tragedy that led her from her it was a tragedy that led her from her it was a tragedy that led her there and it was a family company she there and it was a family company she there and it was a family company she said uh you know this is kind of a said uh you know this is kind of a said uh you know this is kind of a moment where it's a real moment where it's a real moment where it's a real inflection we can either be a nice inflection we can either be a nice inflection we can either be a nice little local paper or we could step up little local paper or we could step up little local paper or we could step up to to to maybe be mentioned in the same breath

maybe be mentioned in the same breath maybe be mentioned in the same breath with the other great papers in the world with the other great papers in the world with the other great papers in the world and at that moment she made the willful and at that moment she made the willful and at that moment she made the willful decision she made it uh when it came to decision she made it uh when it came to decision she made it uh when it came to backing her reporters Watergate she did backing her reporters Watergate she did backing her reporters Watergate she did that when it came to some very very that when it came to some very very that when it came to some very very difficult decisions later related to op difficult decisions later related to op difficult decisions later related to op Pressman strike she was the one that had Pressman strike she was the one that had Pressman strike she was the one that had the iron resolve to get through it all the iron resolve to get through it all the iron resolve to get through it all and including bringing in helicopters to and including bringing in helicopters to and including bringing in helicopters to land on top of buildings to get printing land on top of buildings to get printing land on top of buildings to get printing plates into the helicopters to take them plates into the helicopters to take them plates into the helicopters to take them to other places so they get the paper to other places so they get the paper to other places so they get the paper published so to understand level five published so to understand level five published so to understand level five you have to understand that is both you have to understand that is both you have to understand that is both sides it is the it's the it's the real sides it is the it's the it's the real sides it is the it's the it's the real humility and it's the will it's the humility and it's the will it's the humility and it's the will it's the combination of the to and the real combination of the to and the real combination of the to and the real deepest essence of level five is simply deepest essence of level five is simply deepest essence of level five is simply the answer to the following question the answer to the following question the answer to the following question what's the truth of your what's the truth of your what's the truth of your ambition is the truth of your ambition ambition is the truth of your ambition ambition is the truth of your ambition that it is about that it is about that it is about you or is the truth of your ambition you or is the truth of your ambition you or is the truth of your ambition that it is about what you're really that it is about what you're really that it is about what you're really building trying to do and contributing building trying to do and contributing building trying to do and contributing and not what you say it is but what is and not what you say it is but what is and not what you say it is but what is the inner truth of that and whatever the inner truth of that and whatever the inner truth of that and whatever that inner truth is it will that inner truth is it will that inner truth is it will show well that was my next question how show well that was my next question how show well that was my next question how do you know what your motivation is what do you know what your motivation is what do you know what your motivation is what are some are some are some signs I that's a great question signs I that's a great question signs I that's a great question Carrie because I asked myself that Carrie because I asked myself that Carrie because I asked myself that question all the time Jim and my best question all the time Jim and my best question all the time Jim and my best answer is it's mixed and it depends on

answer is it's mixed and it depends on answer is it's mixed and it depends on the moment yeah so how would you how the moment yeah so how would you how the moment yeah so how would you how would you answer that question yeah you would you answer that question yeah you would you answer that question yeah you know it is interesting um know it is interesting um know it is interesting um there's a phrase that I've often heard there's a phrase that I've often heard there's a phrase that I've often heard used because let me just back up for a used because let me just back up for a used because let me just back up for a second and just say I want to underscore second and just say I want to underscore second and just say I want to underscore what you said because I think what we what you said because I think what we what you said because I think what we often can end up with is a Divergence of often can end up with is a Divergence of often can end up with is a Divergence of the two qualities of a level five leader the two qualities of a level five leader the two qualities of a level five leader on some occasions you get a truly humble on some occasions you get a truly humble on some occasions you get a truly humble person but there's no resolve there's no person but there's no resolve there's no person but there's no resolve there's no will there's no Mission Focus it's just will there's no Mission Focus it's just will there's no Mission Focus it's just a nice person doing nice things yeah a nice person doing nice things yeah a nice person doing nice things yeah that's not that's not that's not level that's not that's not that's not level that's not that's not that's not level five leadership on the other hand you five leadership on the other hand you five leadership on the other hand you get people who are just killing it on get people who are just killing it on get people who are just killing it on the mission like doing unbelievable the mission like doing unbelievable the mission like doing unbelievable things they just don't have a deep things they just don't have a deep things they just don't have a deep personal humility and it's the fusion of personal humility and it's the fusion of personal humility and it's the fusion of the two that brings level five so my the two that brings level five so my the two that brings level five so my mind goes here Jim and it's a really mind goes here Jim and it's a really mind goes here Jim and it's a really great question thanks for flipping it great question thanks for flipping it great question thanks for flipping it back it's a hard one day answer um I back it's a hard one day answer um I back it's a hard one day answer um I would say how Loosely do I hold things would say how Loosely do I hold things would say how Loosely do I hold things you know we uh is it about the mission you know we uh is it about the mission you know we uh is it about the mission I'll give you a very practical example I'll give you a very practical example I'll give you a very practical example you know I was lead pastor of our church you know I was lead pastor of our church you know I was lead pastor of our church which we're still a part of we which we're still a part of we which we're still a part of we are part of a small group we give we are part of a small group we give we are part of a small group we give we attend there I'm the founding Pastor attend there I'm the founding Pastor attend there I'm the founding Pastor which means I'm functionally useless is which means I'm functionally useless is which means I'm functionally useless is what it actually means now Jim I handed what it actually means now Jim I handed what it actually means now Jim I handed things over nine years ago to a great things over nine years ago to a great things over nine years ago to a great leader who has been doing incredible leader who has been doing incredible leader who has been doing incredible things and you know that's always an things and you know that's always an things and you know that's always an adjustment right to be a Founder who is adjustment right to be a Founder who is adjustment right to be a Founder who is still part of the organization but we've still part of the organization but we've still part of the organization but we've lived in the same Community for almost

lived in the same Community for almost lived in the same Community for almost 30 years I guess and have lived in two 30 years I guess and have lived in two 30 years I guess and have lived in two houses and last night my wife and I were houses and last night my wife and I were houses and last night my wife and I were going for dinner and we drove by the old going for dinner and we drove by the old going for dinner and we drove by the old house and I'm a little bit OCD I mean my house and I'm a little bit OCD I mean my house and I'm a little bit OCD I mean my lawn you know is very neat and the lawn you know is very neat and the lawn you know is very neat and the gardens are kept and everything and that gardens are kept and everything and that gardens are kept and everything and that was true the old house but you know the was true the old house but you know the was true the old house but you know the people who purchased it or maybe they've people who purchased it or maybe they've people who purchased it or maybe they've sold it a couple times I don't know uh sold it a couple times I don't know uh sold it a couple times I don't know uh it's it's it's gone to the point where it's it's it's gone to the point where it's it's it's gone to the point where it's degraded quite a bit and part of me it's degraded quite a bit and part of me it's degraded quite a bit and part of me you know my friends will say wow does you know my friends will say wow does you know my friends will say wow does that bother you that your old place has that bother you that your old place has that bother you that your old place has sort of gone to pot and I'm like I sort of gone to pot and I'm like I sort of gone to pot and I'm like I shouldn't have sold it like then I shouldn't have sold it like then I shouldn't have sold it like then I shouldn't have sold it I should have shouldn't have sold it I should have shouldn't have sold it I should have owned two houses and maintained both of owned two houses and maintained both of owned two houses and maintained both of them you got to hold things Loosely and them you got to hold things Loosely and them you got to hold things Loosely and so I'm I've got a big birthday next year so I'm I've got a big birthday next year so I'm I've got a big birthday next year it's 10th anniversary you know I love it's 10th anniversary you know I love it's 10th anniversary you know I love this I love like the fact that we are this I love like the fact that we are this I love like the fact that we are having this conversation for the 10th having this conversation for the 10th having this conversation for the 10th anniversary is a dream come true on the anniversary is a dream come true on the anniversary is a dream come true on the other hand if it all disappeared other hand if it all disappeared other hand if it all disappeared tomorrow you know what does that do I tomorrow you know what does that do I tomorrow you know what does that do I don't know I think you know and i' I've don't know I think you know and i' I've don't know I think you know and i' I've I've I've gone with a few mentors people I've I've gone with a few mentors people I've I've gone with a few mentors people who have finished or are finishing well who have finished or are finishing well who have finished or are finishing well and ask this question and I think about and ask this question and I think about and ask this question and I think about my next decade I think what I want more my next decade I think what I want more my next decade I think what I want more than success is the freedom and ability than success is the freedom and ability than success is the freedom and ability to make a contribution I don't know to make a contribution I don't know to make a contribution I don't know whether my books the next book will sell whether my books the next book will sell whether my books the next book will sell one copy or 100,000 copies but I want it one copy or 100,000 copies but I want it one copy or 100,000 copies but I want it to be well researched and thought out to be well researched and thought out to be well researched and thought out enough that if somebody read it it would enough that if somebody read it it would enough that if somebody read it it would be genuinely helpful for what they're be genuinely helpful for what they're be genuinely helpful for what they're doing um you know it's it's almost like doing um you know it's it's almost like doing um you know it's it's almost like uh this is a little bit of a lab you uh this is a little bit of a lab you uh this is a little bit of a lab you don't really know what your motivation don't really know what your motivation don't really know what your motivation is until things are taken away right and

is until things are taken away right and is until things are taken away right and so having been through a couple of so having been through a couple of so having been through a couple of rounds of that leaving law and then rounds of that leaving law and then rounds of that leaving law and then leaving Ministry I think okay you know leaving Ministry I think okay you know leaving Ministry I think okay you know it was it was hard leaving Ministry was it was it was hard leaving Ministry was it was it was hard leaving Ministry was harder than leaving law for sure but uh harder than leaving law for sure but uh harder than leaving law for sure but uh I look at it that way and then you know I look at it that way and then you know I look at it that way and then you know is my entire universe built around the is my entire universe built around the is my entire universe built around the work that I do or do we have friends who work that I do or do we have friends who work that I do or do we have friends who are just friends and hobbies that are are just friends and hobbies that are are just friends and hobbies that are just hobbies and Pursuits that are just just hobbies and Pursuits that are just just hobbies and Pursuits that are just Pursuits and you know the other question Pursuits and you know the other question Pursuits and you know the other question I would ask regularly when I was a lead I would ask regularly when I was a lead I would ask regularly when I was a lead Pastor is uh because you know Pastor is uh because you know Pastor is uh because you know theoretically we're all Christians theoretically we're all Christians theoretically we're all Christians hopefully in practice as well and but hopefully in practice as well and but hopefully in practice as well and but you get into this occupational hazard you get into this occupational hazard you get into this occupational hazard where you know you get paid to believe where you know you get paid to believe where you know you get paid to believe what you believe right which is really what you believe right which is really what you believe right which is really weird you don't you have a job but you weird you don't you have a job but you weird you don't you have a job but you go home and you're a husband and you get go home and you're a husband and you get go home and you're a husband and you get to go hiking in the mountains and that I to go hiking in the mountains and that I to go hiking in the mountains and that I go home and I'm still a Christian I like go home and I'm still a Christian I like go home and I'm still a Christian I like what does that mean you know and so I what does that mean you know and so I what does that mean you know and so I would ask this question to myself and to would ask this question to myself and to would ask this question to myself and to my team if all of this went away my team if all of this went away my team if all of this went away tomorrow what would be left of your tomorrow what would be left of your tomorrow what would be left of your faith and it's a good question I mean I faith and it's a good question I mean I faith and it's a good question I mean I read my Bible this morning and prayed read my Bible this morning and prayed read my Bible this morning and prayed and you know it's quite a vibrant faith and you know it's quite a vibrant faith and you know it's quite a vibrant faith maybe you know as good or or perhaps maybe you know as good or or perhaps maybe you know as good or or perhaps hopefully matured a little bit from when hopefully matured a little bit from when hopefully matured a little bit from when I was leading the church because you get I was leading the church because you get I was leading the church because you get older um so I look at things like that older um so I look at things like that older um so I look at things like that that's a pretty jumbled answer uh that's a pretty jumbled answer uh that's a pretty jumbled answer uh because I I don't know what do you hear because I I don't know what do you hear because I I don't know what do you hear in that what do you see in that it's in that what do you see in that it's in that what do you see in that it's it's and I'm I'm asking myself the it's and I'm I'm asking myself the it's and I'm I'm asking myself the question on a regular basis what really question on a regular basis what really question on a regular basis what really are my motives and then trying to are my motives and then trying to are my motives and then trying to surrender them in prayer yeah well you surrender them in prayer yeah well you surrender them in prayer yeah well you know it's interesting because I so I know it's interesting because I so I know it's interesting because I so I that'd be a very hard question for me to

that'd be a very hard question for me to that'd be a very hard question for me to answer looking peering into somebody answer looking peering into somebody answer looking peering into somebody else I yeah I think that that's hard to else I yeah I think that that's hard to else I yeah I think that that's hard to see I do I I'm see I do I I'm see I do I I'm also quite confident that all of us have also quite confident that all of us have also quite confident that all of us have mixtures of motives that there's no uh mixtures of motives that there's no uh mixtures of motives that there's no uh and I always sort of think of it as when and I always sort of think of it as when and I always sort of think of it as when I was kind of a kind of it's a 100 Point I was kind of a kind of it's a 100 Point I was kind of a kind of it's a 100 Point allocation if you will between two allocation if you will between two allocation if you will between two buckets one I'd call light Force buckets one I'd call light Force buckets one I'd call light Force motivations and the other I'd call dark motivations and the other I'd call dark motivations and the other I'd call dark force motivations right and dark Mo force motivations right and dark Mo force motivations right and dark Mo motivations are more around uh you know motivations are more around uh you know motivations are more around uh you know you know ego motiv a fear motivations you know ego motiv a fear motivations you know ego motiv a fear motivations you know whatever right and and life you know whatever right and and life you know whatever right and and life force motivations are things like just force motivations are things like just force motivations are things like just the sheer the sheer the sheer absolute uh Exquisite day-to-day absolute uh Exquisite day-to-day absolute uh Exquisite day-to-day experience of the joy of doing it for experience of the joy of doing it for experience of the joy of doing it for example and just because and and there example and just because and and there example and just because and and there could be other forms of light War could be other forms of light War could be other forms of light War motivations and I've seen in my own life motivations and I've seen in my own life motivations and I've seen in my own life the journey has been to shift the point the journey has been to shift the point the journey has been to shift the point allocation so I don't ever expect that I allocation so I don't ever expect that I allocation so I don't ever expect that I will have a 100 points in light Force will have a 100 points in light Force will have a 100 points in light Force motivations but now I'm 66 which I motivations but now I'm 66 which I motivations but now I'm 66 which I considered to be midcareer I think of it considered to be midcareer I think of it considered to be midcareer I think of it as that the point allocations have as that the point allocations have as that the point allocations have shifted and so maybe know being you know shifted and so maybe know being you know shifted and so maybe know being you know when you're young you have more points when you're young you have more points when you're young you have more points in the dark force motivations and the in the dark force motivations and the in the dark force motivations and the journey becomes kind of re reallocating journey becomes kind of re reallocating journey becomes kind of re reallocating and I and I think that that is not a and I and I think that that is not a and I and I think that that is not a it's not for me anyways that has not it's not for me anyways that has not it's not for me anyways that has not been a light switch right that has been been a light switch right that has been been a light switch right that has been a a continuous uh evolutionary journey a a continuous uh evolutionary journey a a continuous uh evolutionary journey and sometimes maybe some points flip and sometimes maybe some points flip and sometimes maybe some points flip back to the other side and there can be back to the other side and there can be back to the other side and there can be moments where happens I I can share with

moments where happens I I can share with moments where happens I I can share with you I'll give me give you a question you I'll give me give you a question you I'll give me give you a question here in a moment that might be helpful here in a moment that might be helpful here in a moment that might be helpful I'll just give it to you I'm thinking I'll just give it to you I'm thinking I'll just give it to you I'm thinking about it which is I think the question I about it which is I think the question I about it which is I think the question I would always ask somebody is what do you would always ask somebody is what do you would always ask somebody is what do you want to be responsible for for which you want to be responsible for for which you want to be responsible for for which you get no get no get no [Music] [Music] [Music] credit that's a great question what do credit that's a great question what do credit that's a great question what do you want to be responsible for for which you want to be responsible for for which you want to be responsible for for which you get no you get no you get no credit and if you live with that credit and if you live with that credit and if you live with that question that that's a question that's question that that's a question that's question that that's a question that's come from my from my new research uh the come from my from my new research uh the come from my from my new research uh the the the the new book I'm working on the the the new book I'm working on the the the new book I'm working on that's buried in there but I really that's buried in there but I really that's buried in there but I really believe that that that believe that that that believe that that that question is one of the great most question is one of the great most question is one of the great most important questions in life and that if important questions in life and that if important questions in life and that if you really have accepted full you really have accepted full you really have accepted full responsibility for something for which responsibility for something for which responsibility for something for which you will never receive you will never receive you will never receive credit then you're heading more towards credit then you're heading more towards credit then you're heading more towards level five on level five on level five on something and uh I am uh I'll share with something and uh I am uh I'll share with something and uh I am uh I'll share with you though how sometimes this this ion you though how sometimes this this ion you though how sometimes this this ion can happen so for me I I'm more of a can happen so for me I I'm more of a can happen so for me I I'm more of a teacher and a learner and you know my teacher and a learner and you know my teacher and a learner and you know my own flywheel I I think we even shared it own flywheel I I think we even shared it own flywheel I I think we even shared it with you is really not about building with you is really not about building with you is really not about building organizations I'd love to talk touch on organizations I'd love to talk touch on organizations I'd love to talk touch on that if we have time it's about building that if we have time it's about building that if we have time it's about building ideas and all that but I share with you ideas and all that but I share with you ideas and all that but I share with you a moment that was you know a non-level a moment that was you know a non-level a moment that was you know a non-level five moment for me where I got some nice five moment for me where I got some nice five moment for me where I got some nice uh nice self-correction from Joanne so uh nice self-correction from Joanne so uh nice self-correction from Joanne so uh I had I don't remember exactly where uh I had I don't remember exactly where uh I had I don't remember exactly where I'd come across it but it was it was I'd come across it but it was it was I'd come across it but it was it was something where a couple of the ideas something where a couple of the ideas something where a couple of the ideas that had come from our work I think that had come from our work I think that had come from our work I think flywheel and beehag or something were

flywheel and beehag or something were flywheel and beehag or something were were being you know discussed and put on were being you know discussed and put on were being you know discussed and put on posters and things like that and posters and things like that and posters and things like that and absolutely no credit back to where they absolutely no credit back to where they absolutely no credit back to where they came from and I kind of grumbled about came from and I kind of grumbled about came from and I kind of grumbled about it to Joanne I was like you know I don't it to Joanne I was like you know I don't it to Joanne I was like you know I don't even you know know that the beags came even you know know that the beags came even you know know that the beags came from built to last and the flywheel came from built to last and the flywheel came from built to last and the flywheel came from good to great they're just you know from good to great they're just you know from good to great they're just you know there they're just being used and and there they're just being used and and there they're just being used and and you know sort of like uh and and Joan you know sort of like uh and and Joan you know sort of like uh and and Joan looks at me for a long moment of just looks at me for a long moment of just looks at me for a long moment of just this just wonderful thing about having this just wonderful thing about having this just wonderful thing about having these wonderful people in life she looks these wonderful people in life she looks these wonderful people in life she looks at me she goes at me she goes at me she goes you realize that means the idea is you realize that means the idea is you realize that means the idea is [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] one and she said if you were really one and she said if you were really one and she said if you were really level five for the ideas you would be level five for the ideas you would be level five for the ideas you would be taking you know this is the ultimate taking you know this is the ultimate taking you know this is the ultimate Victory lap that you're not Victory lap that you're not Victory lap that you're not needed the ideas exist without you and needed the ideas exist without you and needed the ideas exist without you and if you're really level five for this it if you're really level five for this it if you're really level five for this it doesn't matter if people doesn't matter if people doesn't matter if people know 50 years from you when you're 50 know 50 years from you when you're 50 know 50 years from you when you're 50 years from now if people are still years from now if people are still years from now if people are still really and they should because it's an really and they should because it's an really and they should because it's an during idea wrestling with level five during idea wrestling with level five during idea wrestling with level five but they don't know that it came from but they don't know that it came from but they don't know that it came from you first of all you won't be here to you first of all you won't be here to you first of all you won't be here to know it and second um would shouldn't know it and second um would shouldn't know it and second um would shouldn't matter that's so Jim are you level five matter that's so Jim are you level five matter that's so Jim are you level five for the ideas or for the ideas or for the ideas or not I mean it was a wonderful wonderful not I mean it was a wonderful wonderful not I mean it was a wonderful wonderful great challenge great challenge right great challenge great challenge right great challenge great challenge right and uh like I said I married well and and uh like I said I married well and and uh like I said I married well and and so the uh but then I I I find myself and so the uh but then I I I find myself and so the uh but then I I I find myself the time that I know I really feel this the time that I know I really feel this the time that I know I really feel this way is when I get to the stage of like way is when I get to the stage of like way is when I get to the stage of like where I am right now with this new after

where I am right now with this new after where I am right now with this new after 10 years of work uh book I'm working on 10 years of work uh book I'm working on 10 years of work uh book I'm working on and I call it the not allowed to die and I call it the not allowed to die and I call it the not allowed to die stage and that's when I feel such a stage and that's when I feel such a stage and that's when I feel such a sense of sense of sense of responsibility to complete the work responsibility to complete the work responsibility to complete the work because it must exist and I'm I'm the because it must exist and I'm I'm the because it must exist and I'm I'm the conduit it must exist uh I I you know I conduit it must exist uh I I you know I conduit it must exist uh I I you know I feel that it needs to be out there that feel that it needs to be out there that feel that it needs to be out there that my feeling is I'm not allowed to die cuz my feeling is I'm not allowed to die cuz my feeling is I'm not allowed to die cuz because it has to get done wow but then because it has to get done wow but then because it has to get done wow but then it would be okay I mean it wouldn't be it would be okay I mean it wouldn't be it would be okay I mean it wouldn't be okay I mean I first thing to go through okay I mean I first thing to go through okay I mean I first thing to go through my mind is Joanne right if something my mind is Joanne right if something my mind is Joanne right if something happened to but but but from the happened to but but but from the happened to but but but from the standpoint of the work after that I standpoint of the work after that I standpoint of the work after that I could die because it got out of you and could die because it got out of you and could die because it got out of you and you were done your assignment I've done you were done your assignment I've done you were done your assignment I've done my assignment and and I know that I feel my assignment and and I know that I feel my assignment and and I know that I feel really motivated for the work itself really motivated for the work itself really motivated for the work itself when I enter the not allowed to die when I enter the not allowed to die when I enter the not allowed to die stage and uh and it can take a long time stage and uh and it can take a long time stage and uh and it can take a long time to get there but when you're there it's to get there but when you're there it's to get there but when you're there it's like no I have a like no I have a like no I have a responsibility and I have to get to the end that is very challenging and really end that is very challenging and really interesting I mean I turned 60 next year interesting I mean I turned 60 next year interesting I mean I turned 60 next year you're 66 so young yes I love the fact you're 66 so young yes I love the fact you're 66 so young yes I love the fact that you call this mid-career I I if we that you call this mid-career I I if we that you call this mid-career I I if we get a chance I want to explore that a get a chance I want to explore that a get a chance I want to explore that a little more you know can you repeat the little more you know can you repeat the little more you know can you repeat the question that you asked earlier uh you question that you asked earlier uh you question that you asked earlier uh you want be responsible for for which you want be responsible for for which you want be responsible for for which you will get no credit will get no credit will get no credit yeah so two summers ago I went through a yeah so two summers ago I went through a yeah so two summers ago I went through a bit of a a second calling in Ministry

bit of a a second calling in Ministry bit of a a second calling in Ministry and really spent a lot of time and really spent a lot of time and really spent a lot of time reflecting talking with friends praying reflecting talking with friends praying reflecting talking with friends praying about it in my own about it in my own about it in my own tradition and kind of came up with the tradition and kind of came up with the tradition and kind of came up with the mission that would motivate me for the mission that would motivate me for the mission that would motivate me for the indefinite future and I I talked to Seth indefinite future and I I talked to Seth indefinite future and I I talked to Seth Goden about it he was very generous with Goden about it he was very generous with Goden about it he was very generous with his time because he asked this question his time because he asked this question his time because he asked this question on Tim Ferris show which you've been on on Tim Ferris show which you've been on on Tim Ferris show which you've been on where he said what would you do if you where he said what would you do if you where he said what would you do if you knew that you would fail because usually knew that you would fail because usually knew that you would fail because usually the question is what would you do if you the question is what would you do if you the question is what would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail knew you wouldn't fail knew you wouldn't fail right the question is what would you do right the question is what would you do right the question is what would you do if you knew you would fail in other if you knew you would fail in other if you knew you would fail in other words you hit 80 and you're like wow words you hit 80 and you're like wow words you hit 80 and you're like wow that was a bust but it was worth it in that was a bust but it was worth it in that was a bust but it was worth it in other words you don't regret it and so other words you don't regret it and so other words you don't regret it and so for me it's to help reverse the decline for me it's to help reverse the decline for me it's to help reverse the decline in the church that's that's it for me in the church that's that's it for me in the church that's that's it for me it's like we got to we got to just help it's like we got to we got to just help it's like we got to we got to just help with that project and if I got no credit with that project and if I got no credit with that project and if I got no credit for that but I'm responsible for it I for that but I'm responsible for it I for that but I'm responsible for it I think that's okay yeah that's exactly think that's okay yeah that's exactly think that's okay yeah that's exactly that and that is the I had a dear friend that and that is the I had a dear friend that and that is the I had a dear friend who became the who became the who became the of the uh Board of Trustees of one of of the uh Board of Trustees of one of of the uh Board of Trustees of one of the great universities in the world and the great universities in the world and the great universities in the world and he asked me what guidance I would give I he asked me what guidance I would give I he asked me what guidance I would give I said I don't know anything about being a said I don't know anything about being a said I don't know anything about being a chair so I don't really have any direct chair so I don't really have any direct chair so I don't really have any direct guidance I just have a question for you guidance I just have a question for you guidance I just have a question for you though I I would just ask you that over though I I would just ask you that over though I I would just ask you that over the course of your tenure that you the course of your tenure that you the course of your tenure that you answer that question what's one thing answer that question what's one thing answer that question what's one thing you want to take responsibility for as you want to take responsibility for as you want to take responsibility for as chair that you will never get credit chair that you will never get credit chair that you will never get credit for but that you know that when it's for but that you know that when it's for but that you know that when it's done it was important done it was important done it was important and that it would not have happened if and that it would not have happened if and that it would not have happened if you were not there it's a great

there it's a great question it's a great question well question it's a great question well question it's a great question well that's level five that's level five that's level five humility um it's a couple things I do humility um it's a couple things I do humility um it's a couple things I do want to touch on in our remaining time want to touch on in our remaining time want to touch on in our remaining time um can we talk a little bit about the um can we talk a little bit about the um can we talk a little bit about the undisciplined pursuit of more yeah uh I undisciplined pursuit of more yeah uh I undisciplined pursuit of more yeah uh I think this is a quote from you growth is think this is a quote from you growth is think this is a quote from you growth is not a goal no um that owns a lot of not a goal no um that owns a lot of not a goal no um that owns a lot of leaders leaders leaders when you say that clearly uh can you when you say that clearly uh can you when you say that clearly uh can you explain why growth is a bad explain why growth is a bad explain why growth is a bad goal well so um and I want to ask you goal well so um and I want to ask you goal well so um and I want to ask you about this in the in the in the world of about this in the in the in the world of about this in the in the in the world of of churches because growth would be of churches because growth would be of churches because growth would be defined very differently than in a defined very differently than in a defined very differently than in a company but when you really look at how company but when you really look at how company but when you really look at how great companies get great companies get great companies get built growth built growth built growth is a residual outcome of building a is a residual outcome of building a is a residual outcome of building a great flywheel and that when you really great flywheel and that when you really great flywheel and that when you really look at how a great organization happens look at how a great organization happens look at how a great organization happens there's a series of things they have there's a series of things they have there's a series of things they have level fives and they get the right level fives and they get the right level fives and they get the right people on the bus and they get really people on the bus and they get really people on the bus and they get really clear about what they can distinctively clear about what they can distinctively clear about what they can distinctively do better than anyone else and they do better than anyone else and they do better than anyone else and they begin to make really good decisions that begin to make really good decisions that begin to make really good decisions that fit with that uh more of what fits what fit with that uh more of what fits what fit with that uh more of what fits what we called the Hedgehog and what doesn't we called the Hedgehog and what doesn't we called the Hedgehog and what doesn't fit and they compound that over time and fit and they compound that over time and fit and they compound that over time and they get this flywheel effect like get a they get this flywheel effect like get a they get this flywheel effect like get a huge heavy flywheel that begins to huge heavy flywheel that begins to huge heavy flywheel that begins to compound momentum and that flywheel compound momentum and that flywheel compound momentum and that flywheel begins to build turn upon turn upon turn begins to build turn upon turn upon turn begins to build turn upon turn upon turn to the point of breakthrough and Beyond to the point of breakthrough and Beyond to the point of breakthrough and Beyond boom fly whe fly flywheel compounding boom fly whe fly flywheel compounding boom fly whe fly flywheel compounding effect and uh and if you do that really effect and uh and if you do that really effect and uh and if you do that really well and if you get your flywheel really well and if you get your flywheel really well and if you get your flywheel really right if you really get that fly crystal

right if you really get that fly crystal right if you really get that fly crystal clear and and turn it with great clear and and turn it with great clear and and turn it with great discipline and intensity and discipline and intensity and discipline and intensity and Imagination the result of that the Imagination the result of that the Imagination the result of that the result of that will be likely that result of that will be likely that result of that will be likely that you're going to die of indigestion of you're going to die of indigestion of you're going to die of indigestion of too much opportunity for growth than too much opportunity for growth than too much opportunity for growth than starvation for too little and so the starvation for too little and so the starvation for too little and so the result of that then means that that result of that then means that that result of that then means that that growth is a result to be managed rather growth is a result to be managed rather growth is a result to be managed rather than a gigantus more is better goal to than a gigantus more is better goal to than a gigantus more is better goal to pursue right if you get into the idea pursue right if you get into the idea pursue right if you get into the idea that growth is the point you've missed that growth is the point you've missed that growth is the point you've missed the point how does that play out what are point how does that play out what are some examples and feel free to use some some examples and feel free to use some some examples and feel free to use some from the corporate world uh of companies from the corporate world uh of companies from the corporate world uh of companies because you've got you know we mentioned because you've got you know we mentioned because you've got you know we mentioned Walmart a lot but one of the the graphs Walmart a lot but one of the the graphs Walmart a lot but one of the the graphs in and and this is interesting I barely in and and this is interesting I barely in and and this is interesting I barely remember Ames I think I remember Ames remember Ames I think I remember Ames remember Ames I think I remember Ames but they were neck and neck with Walmart but they were neck and neck with Walmart but they were neck and neck with Walmart for years and then all of a sudden they for years and then all of a sudden they for years and then all of a sudden they capitulated to death and irrelevance and capitulated to death and irrelevance and capitulated to death and irrelevance and Walmart took off to become what we know Walmart took off to become what we know Walmart took off to become what we know I don't know it was a factor for as but I don't know it was a factor for as but I don't know it was a factor for as but other companies where maybe the other companies where maybe the other companies where maybe the undisciplined pursuit of more got the undisciplined pursuit of more got the undisciplined pursuit of more got the best of them well I think what um so I I best of them well I think what um so I I best of them well I think what um so I I think the the where I would really Point think the the where I would really Point think the the where I would really Point people in this is that what so let's let's flip it around this what so let's let's flip it around this way what does disciplined pursuit mean

way what does disciplined pursuit mean way what does disciplined pursuit mean yeah and disciplined Pursuit means a few yeah and disciplined Pursuit means a few yeah and disciplined Pursuit means a few things it means first of all you don't things it means first of all you don't things it means first of all you don't break Packard's law Packard's law break Packard's law Packard's law break Packard's law Packard's law originally came from David Packard the originally came from David Packard the originally came from David Packard the founder of HP co-founder of HP and we founder of HP co-founder of HP and we founder of HP co-founder of HP and we put it in good to Great which is put it in good to Great which is put it in good to Great which is basically the idea that if you allow basically the idea that if you allow basically the idea that if you allow growth in scale in volume in revenues growth in scale in volume in revenues growth in scale in volume in revenues whatever it happens to be uh complexity whatever it happens to be uh complexity whatever it happens to be uh complexity to to to exceed having enough of the right people exceed having enough of the right people exceed having enough of the right people in the key seats to execute on that in the key seats to execute on that in the key seats to execute on that growth brilliantly you will fall so growth brilliantly you will fall so growth brilliantly you will fall so discipline pursuit of growth means that discipline pursuit of growth means that discipline pursuit of growth means that your real throttle on growth is not your real throttle on growth is not your real throttle on growth is not opportunity it's people second opportunity it's people second opportunity it's people second undisciplined pursuit of Mo growth means undisciplined pursuit of Mo growth means undisciplined pursuit of Mo growth means that or PL pursuit of growth means that that or PL pursuit of growth means that that or PL pursuit of growth means that you do place big bets but they are you do place big bets but they are you do place big bets but they are calibrated big bets so there's a calibrated big bets so there's a calibrated big bets so there's a principle that came from one of our principle that came from one of our principle that came from one of our works called fire bullets then fire works called fire bullets then fire works called fire bullets then fire cannonballs the idea being that instead cannonballs the idea being that instead cannonballs the idea being that instead of just taking a bunch of gunpowder of just taking a bunch of gunpowder of just taking a bunch of gunpowder putting it in a giant Cannonball firing putting it in a giant Cannonball firing putting it in a giant Cannonball firing it at the oncoming ship and hoping it it at the oncoming ship and hoping it it at the oncoming ship and hoping it hits then it doesn't and then you're in hits then it doesn't and then you're in hits then it doesn't and then you're in trouble and you're out of gunpowder you trouble and you're out of gunpowder you trouble and you're out of gunpowder you take a little bit of gunpowder and you take a little bit of gunpowder and you take a little bit of gunpowder and you put it in a bullet and you fire a bullet put it in a bullet and you fire a bullet put it in a bullet and you fire a bullet and see if it hits and if it doesn't you and see if it hits and if it doesn't you and see if it hits and if it doesn't you recalibrate set fire another one fire recalibrate set fire another one fire recalibrate set fire another one fire reset fire another one until ping you reset fire another one until ping you reset fire another one until ping you hear the hull of the oncoming ship you hear the hull of the oncoming ship you hear the hull of the oncoming ship you know you have a calibrated line of sight know you have a calibrated line of sight know you have a calibrated line of sight and then you fire The Cannonball on the

and then you fire The Cannonball on the and then you fire The Cannonball on the calibrated line of sight so calibrated line of sight so calibrated line of sight so undisciplined pursuit of more means undisciplined pursuit of more means undisciplined pursuit of more means firing big uncalibrated cannonballs firing big uncalibrated cannonballs firing big uncalibrated cannonballs disciplined pursuit of growth means disciplined pursuit of growth means disciplined pursuit of growth means firing first bullets to calibrate then firing first bullets to calibrate then firing first bullets to calibrate then firing Canon balls and then finally the firing Canon balls and then finally the firing Canon balls and then finally the other is the notion of disciplined other is the notion of disciplined other is the notion of disciplined growth means really building consistent growth means really building consistent growth means really building consistent with a real deep understanding of how with a real deep understanding of how with a real deep understanding of how your fly will really turns it means that your fly will really turns it means that your fly will really turns it means that uh you one of the things that was uh you one of the things that was uh you one of the things that was different between uh Walmart and Ames different between uh Walmart and Ames different between uh Walmart and Ames for example we could go through lots of for example we could go through lots of for example we could go through lots of cases is that is the understanding of oh cases is that is the understanding of oh cases is that is the understanding of oh we really understand how this entire we really understand how this entire we really understand how this entire flywheel really works so that we can flywheel really works so that we can flywheel really works so that we can feed it as a continuous looping process feed it as a continuous looping process feed it as a continuous looping process we don't view it as just kind of a bunch we don't view it as just kind of a bunch we don't view it as just kind of a bunch of initiatives there's an underlying of initiatives there's an underlying of initiatives there's an underlying logic of momentum we know what that is logic of momentum we know what that is logic of momentum we know what that is we know how it works we know how it we know how it works we know how it we know how it works we know how it feeds upon itself and if we look at feeds upon itself and if we look at feeds upon itself and if we look at companies that sometimes got off track companies that sometimes got off track companies that sometimes got off track what happened is they either neglected what happened is they either neglected what happened is they either neglected their flywheel uh or they failed to see their flywheel uh or they failed to see their flywheel uh or they failed to see how far the flywheel could go when they how far the flywheel could go when they how far the flywheel could go when they ended up abandoning it uh abandoning a ended up abandoning it uh abandoning a ended up abandoning it uh abandoning a good one too soon so those are the good one too soon so those are the good one too soon so those are the aspects of discipline Pursuit which aspects of discipline Pursuit which aspects of discipline Pursuit which probably might give people the most you probably might give people the most you probably might give people the most you know sort of help and guidance for how know sort of help and guidance for how know sort of help and guidance for how to stay true when they're in to stay true when they're in to stay true when they're in a time of tremendous a time of tremendous a time of tremendous opportunity you've mentioned who not opportunity you've mentioned who not opportunity you've mentioned who not what famously getting the right people what famously getting the right people what famously getting the right people on the bus uh that is something I've on the bus uh that is something I've on the bus uh that is something I've become consumed with over the last few become consumed with over the last few become consumed with over the last few years and you know it does make a big

years and you know it does make a big years and you know it does make a big difference when you have a players when difference when you have a players when difference when you have a players when you have the right people the market is you have the right people the market is you have the right people the market is shifting a little bit you know a lot of shifting a little bit you know a lot of shifting a little bit you know a lot of people work for themselves people don't people work for themselves people don't people work for themselves people don't stick around as long any thoughts any stick around as long any thoughts any stick around as long any thoughts any updates on how to get the right team updates on how to get the right team updates on how to get the right team what that looks like for people because what that looks like for people because what that looks like for people because I think everybody is sort of I think everybody is sort of I think everybody is sort of particularly in a market like the church particularly in a market like the church particularly in a market like the church World um you know pay isn't top of the World um you know pay isn't top of the World um you know pay isn't top of the pay scale etc etc how do you what is the pay scale etc etc how do you what is the pay scale etc etc how do you what is the importance of who not what or who before importance of who not what or who before importance of who not what or who before what and then um any thoughts on getting what and then um any thoughts on getting what and then um any thoughts on getting the right people on the bus today so two the right people on the bus today so two the right people on the bus today so two two thoughts on this first of all I have two thoughts on this first of all I have two thoughts on this first of all I have in all the ideas over time they've in all the ideas over time they've in all the ideas over time they've evolved as I continue to live with them evolved as I continue to live with them evolved as I continue to live with them it's not that the it's not that the it's not that the ideas none of the core ideas that have ideas none of the core ideas that have ideas none of the core ideas that have come from our research have been ones come from our research have been ones come from our research have been ones that later I've gone back and said oh that later I've gone back and said oh that later I've gone back and said oh the idea was wrong but what I've come the idea was wrong but what I've come the idea was wrong but what I've come back to see is that my understanding was back to see is that my understanding was back to see is that my understanding was primitive and and so I'm constantly primitive and and so I'm constantly primitive and and so I'm constantly learning and evolving and one of the learning and evolving and one of the learning and evolving and one of the ways that I've really evolved on the ways that I've really evolved on the ways that I've really evolved on the whole principle of first two is that whole principle of first two is that whole principle of first two is that early on is very much about first get early on is very much about first get early on is very much about first get the right people on the bus right and the right people on the bus right and the right people on the bus right and then figure out where to drive the bus then figure out where to drive the bus then figure out where to drive the bus but what I've really come to see is that but what I've really come to see is that but what I've really come to see is that the critical thing is the right people the critical thing is the right people the critical thing is the right people in the key seats that's the critical in the key seats that's the critical in the key seats that's the critical thing it's about the key seats and that thing it's about the key seats and that thing it's about the key seats and that furthermore one of the most powerful furthermore one of the most powerful furthermore one of the most powerful things you can do is when you you look things you can do is when you you look things you can do is when you you look at your your company organization your at your your company organization your at your your company organization your entity whatever it happens to be is to entity whatever it happens to be is to entity whatever it happens to be is to be able to say I may not have a bus be able to say I may not have a bus be able to say I may not have a bus problem here but what I might have is a problem here but what I might have is a problem here but what I might have is a seat problem and what I might could I seat problem and what I might could I seat problem and what I might could I could get a huge acceleration think of

could get a huge acceleration think of could get a huge acceleration think of it is you take somebody who is a 100 it is you take somebody who is a 100 it is you take somebody who is a 100 watt light bulb in this seed they're watt light bulb in this seed they're watt light bulb in this seed they're doing fine in it they're okay and then doing fine in it they're okay and then doing fine in it they're okay and then but if I moved them over to this seat but if I moved them over to this seat but if I moved them over to this seat where that would just fit them so where that would just fit them so where that would just fit them so incredibly well they might go from a incredibly well they might go from a incredibly well they might go from a light bulb to just a fullon lightning light bulb to just a fullon lightning light bulb to just a fullon lightning bolt like wow where did that come from bolt like wow where did that come from bolt like wow where did that come from and so sometimes you don't necessarily and so sometimes you don't necessarily and so sometimes you don't necessarily need to find new people it's that you need to find new people it's that you need to find new people it's that you have the right people but you've got have the right people but you've got have the right people but you've got them in the wrong seats and that is them in the wrong seats and that is them in the wrong seats and that is where I've really come to see that where I've really come to see that where I've really come to see that there's almost more work to do than on there's almost more work to do than on there's almost more work to do than on the bus the second thing I'd say about the bus the second thing I'd say about the bus the second thing I'd say about ver two is ver two is ver two is this it's an entire this it's an entire this it's an entire ethos first everything in life is a who ethos first everything in life is a who ethos first everything in life is a who thing and the idea that every question thing and the idea that every question thing and the idea that every question you come at in life EV it's it's it's you come at in life EV it's it's it's you come at in life EV it's it's it's not a business idea it's not a not a business idea it's not a not a business idea it's not a organizational idea personal story on organizational idea personal story on organizational idea personal story on this about around the time I was working this about around the time I was working this about around the time I was working on how the Mighty on how the Mighty on how the Mighty Fall uh Joan had a cancer Fall uh Joan had a cancer Fall uh Joan had a cancer event event event and I being somebody who deals with the and I being somebody who deals with the and I being somebody who deals with the World by understanding things that's how World by understanding things that's how World by understanding things that's how I deal with I deal with I deal with stress I immediately went to buy a bunch stress I immediately went to buy a bunch stress I immediately went to buy a bunch of books on the biochemistry of cancer of books on the biochemistry of cancer of books on the biochemistry of cancer I started like understanding how I started like understanding how I started like understanding how mutations work and I was learning about mutations work and I was learning about mutations work and I was learning about anagen and Proto anagen and I was anagen and Proto anagen and I was anagen and Proto anagen and I was learning about MOG mobile genetic learning about MOG mobile genetic learning about MOG mobile genetic elements and I was learning about the elements and I was learning about the elements and I was learning about the different sorts of ways in which you different sorts of ways in which you different sorts of ways in which you know things move through stages of know things move through stages of know things move through stages of necrosis and all you know gradation and

necrosis and all you know gradation and necrosis and all you know gradation and all these different sorts of things and all these different sorts of things and all these different sorts of things and as if somehow this is going to be as if somehow this is going to be as if somehow this is going to be helpful right and and one day Joanne helpful right and and one day Joanne helpful right and and one day Joanne comes in and looks at me and she says uh comes in and looks at me and she says uh comes in and looks at me and she says uh why don't you read your own book there's a chapter in there which is there's a chapter in there which is first first first two and if you really want to be helpful two and if you really want to be helpful two and if you really want to be helpful to me why are you spending any time on to me why are you spending any time on to me why are you spending any time on the what the question here is not right the what the question here is not right the what the question here is not right what's the diagnosis what's the what's the diagnosis what's the what's the diagnosis what's the treatment what's the schedule you know treatment what's the schedule you know treatment what's the schedule you know any of that if you want want to be any of that if you want want to be any of that if you want want to be helpful Jim help me get the right who if helpful Jim help me get the right who if helpful Jim help me get the right who if we get the question is who is the we get the question is who is the we get the question is who is the oncologist who is the radiologist who is oncologist who is the radiologist who is oncologist who is the radiologist who is the the the surgeon if you help me get the right who surgeon if you help me get the right who surgeon if you help me get the right who we going to get the best what so read we going to get the best what so read we going to get the best what so read your own your own your own book I I share that story because that's book I I share that story because that's book I I share that story because that's not about like hiring people that's not not about like hiring people that's not not about like hiring people that's not about all the kind of normal kind of about all the kind of normal kind of about all the kind of normal kind of stuff that we think about about just stuff that we think about about just stuff that we think about about just this whole thing of talent Etc it's just this whole thing of talent Etc it's just this whole thing of talent Etc it's just in any in any in any situation do you take a what frame or do situation do you take a what frame or do situation do you take a what frame or do you take a who frame in every single you take a who frame in every single you take a who frame in every single part of life what frame or who frame and part of life what frame or who frame and part of life what frame or who frame and what first who is all about is it's what first who is all about is it's what first who is all about is it's first who life is first who yeah that's a great great principle who yeah that's a great great principle and a great reminder I mean as much as and a great reminder I mean as much as and a great reminder I mean as much as and you know that's only gotten worse uh

and you know that's only gotten worse uh and you know that's only gotten worse uh in the last 15 years we have accessed to in the last 15 years we have accessed to in the last 15 years we have accessed to so much information we're all Min so much information we're all Min so much information we're all Min experts and yet you know despite all experts and yet you know despite all experts and yet you know despite all your scholarship or my scholarship we're your scholarship or my scholarship we're your scholarship or my scholarship we're probably not going to advise the best probably not going to advise the best probably not going to advise the best cancer surgeon in the world World on uh cancer surgeon in the world World on uh cancer surgeon in the world World on uh the best course of treatment I can the best course of treatment I can the best course of treatment I can assure I would not have been able to do assure I would not have been able to do assure I would not have been able to do that although I do remember my Ena je that although I do remember my Ena je that although I do remember my Ena je and Proto Ana and Proto Ana and Proto Ana jeene it wasn't helpful Joanne's well jeene it wasn't helpful Joanne's well jeene it wasn't helpful Joanne's well today she is she that's fantastic that today she is she that's fantastic that today she is she that's fantastic that it really is and uh so we have we have a it really is and uh so we have we have a it really is and uh so we have we have a few more minutes would what would you few more minutes would what would you few more minutes would what would you yeah I'd love to ask about your personal yeah I'd love to ask about your personal yeah I'd love to ask about your personal flywheel so that was wonderful your team flywheel so that was wonderful your team flywheel so that was wonderful your team sent it along and uh also maybe a sent it along and uh also maybe a sent it along and uh also maybe a question on your hyper discipline you question on your hyper discipline you question on your hyper discipline you have been this has been a year in the have been this has been a year in the have been this has been a year in the making you know in the research cave making you know in the research cave making you know in the research cave working on this new book 10 years in the working on this new book 10 years in the working on this new book 10 years in the making okay and and the interview we've making okay and and the interview we've making okay and and the interview we've been you know quietly back and forth for been you know quietly back and forth for been you know quietly back and forth for about a year to get it all set up and about a year to get it all set up and about a year to get it all set up and everything and again so grateful um but everything and again so grateful um but everything and again so grateful um but I love I love your flywheel and I hadn't I love I love your flywheel and I hadn't I love I love your flywheel and I hadn't seen that in print it's a fantastic book seen that in print it's a fantastic book seen that in print it's a fantastic book turning the flywheel which by the way turning the flywheel which by the way turning the flywheel which by the way summarizes a lot of your work yeah and summarizes a lot of your work yeah and summarizes a lot of your work yeah and so I've I've had a shot at my personal so I've I've had a shot at my personal so I've I've had a shot at my personal flywheel but would love for you to flywheel but would love for you to flywheel but would love for you to dissect dissect dissect yours so so the idea behind a flywheel yours so so the idea behind a flywheel yours so so the idea behind a flywheel is that whether it be an organization or is that whether it be an organization or is that whether it be an organization or whether it be any other kind of you know whether it be any other kind of you know whether it be any other kind of you know a company or any other kind of a company or any other kind of a company or any other kind of organization is that it's a it's not a organization is that it's a it's not a organization is that it's a it's not a series of steps drawn as a circle it

series of steps drawn as a circle it series of steps drawn as a circle it that's not a flywheel fly will is that that's not a flywheel fly will is that that's not a flywheel fly will is that if you do a then you can't help but do B if you do a then you can't help but do B if you do a then you can't help but do B and if you do B you can't help but do c and if you do B you can't help but do c and if you do B you can't help but do c and if you do c you can't help but do D and if you do c you can't help but do D and if you do c you can't help but do D all the way back around to the top of all the way back around to the top of all the way back around to the top of the flywheel and what it is is that it's the flywheel and what it is is that it's the flywheel and what it is is that it's an underlying logic of momentum that an underlying logic of momentum that an underlying logic of momentum that feeds upon itself because each part feeds upon itself because each part feeds upon itself because each part drives into the next part drives into drives into the next part drives into drives into the next part drives into the next part around back to the top of the next part around back to the top of the next part around back to the top of the flywheel That's The Power of a great the flywheel That's The Power of a great the flywheel That's The Power of a great flywheel and a great flywheel also has flywheel and a great flywheel also has flywheel and a great flywheel also has these sort of components to it that these sort of components to it that these sort of components to it that allow sort of one side to be what the allow sort of one side to be what the allow sort of one side to be what the flywheel does in the world if you will flywheel does in the world if you will flywheel does in the world if you will or kind of how you operationalize what or kind of how you operationalize what or kind of how you operationalize what you're doing creatively and then how it you're doing creatively and then how it you're doing creatively and then how it comes back around to where you can fuel comes back around to where you can fuel comes back around to where you can fuel it right if you will so mine has a it right if you will so mine has a it right if you will so mine has a similar flavor but I'm an individual not similar flavor but I'm an individual not similar flavor but I'm an individual not a company but this is essentially the a company but this is essentially the a company but this is essentially the fly will that has driven me since I fly will that has driven me since I fly will that has driven me since I first went off and started teaching at first went off and started teaching at first went off and started teaching at Stamford in when I was 30 years old and Stamford in when I was 30 years old and Stamford in when I was 30 years old and started my research with Jerry poris started my research with Jerry poris started my research with Jerry poris which then led to you know build to L which then led to you know build to L which then led to you know build to L good to Great how the Mighty Fall great good to Great how the Mighty Fall great good to Great how the Mighty Fall great by choice the new research Etc the top by choice the new research Etc the top by choice the new research Etc the top of the of the of the flywheel is the core for me which is flywheel is the core for me which is flywheel is the core for me which is follow my curiosity find the next big follow my curiosity find the next big follow my curiosity find the next big question that's where it all begins it question that's where it all begins it question that's where it all begins it always always always begins with a question I don't know the begins with a question I don't know the begins with a question I don't know the answer to if I have a question I'm answer to if I have a question I'm answer to if I have a question I'm really curious about and it's a big really curious about and it's a big really curious about and it's a big enough question well then I can't enough question well then I can't enough question well then I can't help but conduct research and study and help but conduct research and study and help but conduct research and study and learn if I really want to understand how learn if I really want to understand how learn if I really want to understand how organizations fall I can't I can't just

organizations fall I can't I can't just organizations fall I can't I can't just write it down I can't help but want to write it down I can't help but want to write it down I can't help but want to conduct research to study and to learn conduct research to study and to learn conduct research to study and to learn everything I can about it and if I do everything I can about it and if I do everything I can about it and if I do that and I get deep into it and the that and I get deep into it and the that and I get deep into it and the things start to I've got all this things start to I've got all this things start to I've got all this information well then the next stage in information well then the next stage in information well then the next stage in the flyws I can't help I'm just the flyws I can't help I'm just the flyws I can't help I'm just constructed I can't help but want to go constructed I can't help but want to go constructed I can't help but want to go from chaos to concept which is all the from chaos to concept which is all the from chaos to concept which is all the data all the information all the right data all the information all the right data all the information all the right what I thrive on are those moments when what I thrive on are those moments when what I thrive on are those moments when everything just kind of fits into place everything just kind of fits into place everything just kind of fits into place and all of a sudden you can take what and all of a sudden you can take what and all of a sudden you can take what was a mess of all the research and you was a mess of all the research and you was a mess of all the research and you see a concept that moment when level see a concept that moment when level see a concept that moment when level five fused in my brain after my team five fused in my brain after my team five fused in my brain after my team challenged me and it was all of a sudden challenged me and it was all of a sudden challenged me and it was all of a sudden I could see the hierarchy from level one I could see the hierarchy from level one I could see the hierarchy from level one to two three four and five and the to two three four and five and the to two three four and five and the difference bang that for me those those difference bang that for me those those difference bang that for me those those are those are just crystallin moments are those are just crystallin moments are those are just crystallin moments and I can't help but want to go from and I can't help but want to go from and I can't help but want to go from chaos to concept I'm just congenitally chaos to concept I'm just congenitally chaos to concept I'm just congenitally drawn there so curiosity number one that drawn there so curiosity number one that drawn there so curiosity number one that leads to I can't help but conduct leads to I can't help but conduct leads to I can't help but conduct research study and learn which that research study and learn which that research study and learn which that means I can't help but want to go from means I can't help but want to go from means I can't help but want to go from chaos to concept well once I have the chaos to concept well once I have the chaos to concept well once I have the concept once I have the framework once I concept once I have the framework once I concept once I have the framework once I have the I can't help but want to write have the I can't help but want to write have the I can't help but want to write it and teach it it and teach it it and teach it and if I and then if I write it and and if I and then if I write it and and if I and then if I write it and teach it at least well enough I can't teach it at least well enough I can't teach it at least well enough I can't help but create impact through the power help but create impact through the power help but create impact through the power of of of ideas and if I do that then I can't help ideas and if I do that then I can't help ideas and if I do that then I can't help but be able to generate enough funding but be able to generate enough funding but be able to generate enough funding to fuel my next big questions which will

to fuel my next big questions which will to fuel my next big questions which will bring me right back to the top of the bring me right back to the top of the bring me right back to the top of the flywheel so that I can follow my flywheel so that I can follow my flywheel so that I can follow my curiosity and pursue the next big curiosity and pursue the next big curiosity and pursue the next big question conduct research go from chaos question conduct research go from chaos question conduct research go from chaos to concept write it and teach it create to concept write it and teach it create to concept write it and teach it create impact through the power of ideas which impact through the power of ideas which impact through the power of ideas which will lead to being able to fund the next will lead to being able to fund the next will lead to being able to fund the next big question and around and around the big question and around and around the big question and around and around the flywheel will go and one day my body flywheel will go and one day my body flywheel will go and one day my body will give out but until then I'm 66 in will give out but until then I'm 66 in will give out but until then I'm 66 in mid career that's my mid career that's my mid career that's my flywheel so you see yourself with flywheel so you see yourself with flywheel so you see yourself with decades ahead in this flywheel following decades ahead in this flywheel following decades ahead in this flywheel following the next big question what has been the the next big question what has been the the next big question what has been the question that's consumed the last decade question that's consumed the last decade question that's consumed the last decade for you for you for you well so as you know when you were been well so as you know when you were been well so as you know when you were been trying to reach out to us I've been I'm trying to reach out to us I've been I'm trying to reach out to us I've been I'm very disciplined about staying in the very disciplined about staying in the very disciplined about staying in the cave and extremely Very Yes I uh I'm you cave and extremely Very Yes I uh I'm you cave and extremely Very Yes I uh I'm you know it's interesting with that it's not know it's interesting with that it's not know it's interesting with that it's not it's one of the things I've really tried it's one of the things I've really tried it's one of the things I've really tried to manage with the right tone which is to manage with the right tone which is to manage with the right tone which is why I have such wonderful people like why I have such wonderful people like why I have such wonderful people like Mel who you've met and people on my team Mel who you've met and people on my team Mel who you've met and people on my team which is that I'm just enormously clear which is that I'm just enormously clear which is that I'm just enormously clear about how to deploy myself and clarity about how to deploy myself and clarity about how to deploy myself and clarity can be confused with arrogance I really can be confused with arrogance I really can be confused with arrogance I really hope it's not arrogance coming through hope it's not arrogance coming through hope it's not arrogance coming through it's more just I'm really clear there's it's more just I'm really clear there's it's more just I'm really clear there's only so much time I have and so only so much time I have and so only so much time I have and so therefore I and I and this flywheel is therefore I and I and this flywheel is therefore I and I and this flywheel is what I have to do right so if I agree to what I have to do right so if I agree to what I have to do right so if I agree to too many things then I'm not going to be too many things then I'm not going to be too many things then I'm not going to be able to do the research and the thinking able to do the research and the thinking able to do the research and the thinking and the the deepness of it there was a and the the deepness of it there was a and the the deepness of it there was a great computer science Professor named

great computer science Professor named great computer science Professor named Don canth and he had this I think it was Don canth and he had this I think it was Don canth and he had this I think it was an auto reply on an email but basically an auto reply on an email but basically an auto reply on an email but basically essentially was like there's some essentially was like there's some essentially was like there's some people's responsib ility in life to stay people's responsib ility in life to stay people's responsib ility in life to stay on top of things and for a few of us our on top of things and for a few of us our on top of things and for a few of us our responsibility is to get to the bottom responsibility is to get to the bottom responsibility is to get to the bottom of things and uh I'm the second I'm in of things and uh I'm the second I'm in of things and uh I'm the second I'm in the second category that's my the second category that's my the second category that's my responsibility and so I responsibility and so I responsibility and so I um uh so you you've gotten lots of um uh so you you've gotten lots of um uh so you you've gotten lots of hopefully very very friendly and hopefully very very friendly and hopefully very very friendly and gracious uh NOS oh your team's amazing gracious uh NOS oh your team's amazing gracious uh NOS oh your team's amazing they are so kind and I you know I they are so kind and I you know I they are so kind and I you know I respect it I know that that was your respect it I know that that was your respect it I know that that was your discipline yeah but you really stick to discipline yeah but you really stick to discipline yeah but you really stick to it some people say it some people say it some people say I'm not available but then you know I'm not available but then you know I'm not available but then you know suddenly they they break it so suddenly they they break it so suddenly they they break it so it'ses I mean there's a little material it'ses I mean there's a little material it'ses I mean there's a little material in this but it is uh I I I track my in this but it is uh I I I track my in this but it is uh I I I track my creative hours every day and uh they creative hours every day and uh they creative hours every day and uh they have to always be above a th000 for any have to always be above a th000 for any have to always be above a th000 for any 365 day period and the rule for myself 365 day period and the rule for myself 365 day period and the rule for myself is you know I will be above a th000 is you know I will be above a th000 is you know I will be above a th000 creative hours for every 365 day cycle creative hours for every 365 day cycle creative hours for every 365 day cycle for every single day meaning today is for every single day meaning today is for every single day meaning today is July 3rd to the last July 3rd and July 3rd to the last July 3rd and July 3rd to the last July 3rd and whatever the day is for 50 consecutive whatever the day is for 50 consecutive whatever the day is for 50 consecutive years very simple rule I can never miss years very simple rule I can never miss years very simple rule I can never miss so in order to hold to that I have to be so in order to hold to that I have to be so in order to hold to that I have to be very disciplined in what I say yes to very disciplined in what I say yes to very disciplined in what I say yes to and and very hopefully kind and gracious and and very hopefully kind and gracious and and very hopefully kind and gracious in what we what we decline I was trying in what we what we decline I was trying in what we what we decline I was trying not to duplicate material is this the not to duplicate material is this the not to duplicate material is this the system you talked about in the Tim system you talked about in the Tim system you talked about in the Tim Ferris episode a few years ago yeah Ferris episode a few years ago yeah Ferris episode a few years ago yeah still following it oh yeah I mean

still following it oh yeah I mean still following it oh yeah I mean absolutely uh consistently every single absolutely uh consistently every single absolutely uh consistently every single night before I go to sleep the the sprie night before I go to sleep the the sprie night before I go to sleep the the sprie gets filled out with what was in the day gets filled out with what was in the day gets filled out with what was in the day what was the quality of the day on a what was the quality of the day on a what was the quality of the day on a plus two to minus two scale and how many plus two to minus two scale and how many plus two to minus two scale and how many creative hours did I get and then it creative hours did I get and then it creative hours did I get and then it runs a bunch of numbers looking back and runs a bunch of numbers looking back and runs a bunch of numbers looking back and I've been doing that for many many many I've been doing that for many many many I've been doing that for many many many years and I will continue to do the years and I will continue to do the years and I will continue to do the numbers are posted right behind me on numbers are posted right behind me on numbers are posted right behind me on the wall so I always know what they are the wall so I always know what they are the wall so I always know what they are the uh so I won't um go in much detail the uh so I won't um go in much detail the uh so I won't um go in much detail about what I've been working on but the about what I've been working on but the about what I've been working on but the essence of what's consumed me is coming essence of what's consumed me is coming essence of what's consumed me is coming up up up on 55 or so uh I I knew on 55 or so uh I I knew on 55 or so uh I I knew that uh my work on what makes great that uh my work on what makes great that uh my work on what makes great companies and great organizations tick companies and great organizations tick companies and great organizations tick was reaching a point where I was was reaching a point where I was was reaching a point where I was satisfying my curiosity the map of satisfying my curiosity the map of satisfying my curiosity the map of Concepts were coming together uh I'd Concepts were coming together uh I'd Concepts were coming together uh I'd done nearly 30 years of work and and I done nearly 30 years of work and and I done nearly 30 years of work and and I didn't want to just kind of go into the didn't want to just kind of go into the didn't want to just kind of go into the repeat zone of just doing smaller and repeat zone of just doing smaller and repeat zone of just doing smaller and smaller slices of what I'd done before I smaller slices of what I'd done before I smaller slices of what I'd done before I felt like that was coming to close to an felt like that was coming to close to an felt like that was coming to close to an end so I decided that for the next big end so I decided that for the next big end so I decided that for the next big phase of life that I wanted to turn my phase of life that I wanted to turn my phase of life that I wanted to turn my attention to other topic areas but still attention to other topic areas but still attention to other topic areas but still use a lot of my powerful methodologies use a lot of my powerful methodologies use a lot of my powerful methodologies for how to do it and uh so starting uh for how to do it and uh so starting uh for how to do it and uh so starting uh about a decade ago I began a project on about a decade ago I began a project on about a decade ago I began a project on what is I think the most fascinating what is I think the most fascinating what is I think the most fascinating topic of all which is people in their topic of all which is people in their topic of all which is people in their lives and I um this study that I'm lives and I um this study that I'm lives and I um this study that I'm finishing up the writing on now was the

finishing up the writing on now was the finishing up the writing on now was the first where I don't use companies or first where I don't use companies or first where I don't use companies or organizations as the unit of analysis organizations as the unit of analysis organizations as the unit of analysis but the entire Arc of lives uh these are but the entire Arc of lives uh these are but the entire Arc of lives uh these are some very exceptional and remarkable some very exceptional and remarkable some very exceptional and remarkable lives using my match pair methodologies lives using my match pair methodologies lives using my match pair methodologies of more than 2,500 years of people lives of more than 2,500 years of people lives of more than 2,500 years of people lives systematically studied across 34 utterly systematically studied across 34 utterly systematically studied across 34 utterly remarkable Life Cases 50% are women uh remarkable Life Cases 50% are women uh remarkable Life Cases 50% are women uh and they come from many walks of life and they come from many walks of life and they come from many walks of life musicians actors scientists writers musicians actors scientists writers musicians actors scientists writers athletes aviators people from political athletes aviators people from political athletes aviators people from political leadership business leadership cause leadership business leadership cause leadership business leadership cause leadership social activism parenting leadership social activism parenting leadership social activism parenting people from law medicine military Global people from law medicine military Global people from law medicine military Global Affairs architecture fashion design I Affairs architecture fashion design I Affairs architecture fashion design I mean it is it is uh all over the map we mean it is it is uh all over the map we mean it is it is uh all over the map we have somebody from the faith community have somebody from the faith community have somebody from the faith community that study has really been a profound that study has really been a profound that study has really been a profound Journey for me it's the biggest study Journey for me it's the biggest study Journey for me it's the biggest study most overwhelming in its magnitude that most overwhelming in its magnitude that most overwhelming in its magnitude that I have done in my life I always thought I have done in my life I always thought I have done in my life I always thought when I was younger they could never get when I was younger they could never get when I was younger they could never get bigger this one got bigger and I'm not bigger this one got bigger and I'm not bigger this one got bigger and I'm not yet sharing the main content but I will yet sharing the main content but I will yet sharing the main content but I will say this say this say this it has changed me it has changed me it has changed me profoundly and at the end of this profoundly and at the end of this profoundly and at the end of this study I am a different person and I have study I am a different person and I have study I am a different person and I have I will never look at life the same ever I will never look at life the same ever I will never look at life the same ever again I will never look at other people again I will never look at other people again I will never look at other people the same ever again and the by the same ever again and the by the same ever again and the by studying how these people's lives were

studying how these people's lives were studying how these people's lives were transformed through the lens that I transformed through the lens that I transformed through the lens that I looked at it was I that became the one looked at it was I that became the one looked at it was I that became the one who was who was who was transformed wow well I've heard a little transformed wow well I've heard a little transformed wow well I've heard a little bit from your team about what's coming bit from your team about what's coming bit from your team about what's coming in that they said it's the most deeply in that they said it's the most deeply in that they said it's the most deeply personal work that you've ever embarked personal work that you've ever embarked personal work that you've ever embarked on I do not want to do a spoiler alert on I do not want to do a spoiler alert on I do not want to do a spoiler alert and if you prefer not to answer the and if you prefer not to answer the and if you prefer not to answer the question that's fine we'll question that's fine we'll question that's fine we'll pass can you are you comfortable sharing pass can you are you comfortable sharing pass can you are you comfortable sharing perhaps one change that has happened to perhaps one change that has happened to perhaps one change that has happened to you as a result of the re research one you as a result of the re research one you as a result of the re research one way you're seeing the world or yourself way you're seeing the world or yourself way you're seeing the world or yourself or life differently well there so many um I'll differently well there so many um I'll I'll share one that I have shared uh in I'll share one that I have shared uh in I'll share one that I have shared uh in in settings where people know about it in settings where people know about it in settings where people know about it well well two that I I think are enough well well two that I I think are enough well well two that I I think are enough public that I can share sure one is that public that I can share sure one is that public that I can share sure one is that um I used to spend a lot of time feeling um I used to spend a lot of time feeling um I used to spend a lot of time feeling frustrated with what people are not and I have completely changed to my not and I have completely changed to my dominant emotion is to feel grateful for dominant emotion is to feel grateful for dominant emotion is to feel grateful for what they are what they are what they are wow and that happened during this study wow and that happened during this study wow and that happened during this study uh uh uh second is my whole sense is to when the second is my whole sense is to when the second is my whole sense is to when the real clock of the big stuff of Life real clock of the big stuff of Life real clock of the big stuff of Life Starts has completely Starts has completely Starts has completely shifted and the idea that our younger shifted and the idea that our younger shifted and the idea that our younger selves must Tower over our older selves

selves must Tower over our older selves selves must Tower over our older selves is forever vanished from my way of is forever vanished from my way of is forever vanished from my way of thinking I really believe that the many thinking I really believe that the many thinking I really believe that the many much of our in it in the evidence of our much of our in it in the evidence of our much of our in it in the evidence of our most most most groundbreaking most creative most groundbreaking most creative most groundbreaking most creative most energetic uh work and activities and energetic uh work and activities and energetic uh work and activities and phases of Life uh can and in the lives phases of Life uh can and in the lives phases of Life uh can and in the lives I've studied do happen well past the I've studied do happen well past the I've studied do happen well past the midpoint and so the idea that somehow midpoint and so the idea that somehow midpoint and so the idea that somehow the kind of the big stuff happens early the kind of the big stuff happens early the kind of the big stuff happens early and everything else is kind of a there and everything else is kind of a there and everything else is kind of a there sort of sort of sort of a winding down or a Glide path from a winding down or a Glide path from a winding down or a Glide path from there or any of that that's just a frame there or any of that that's just a frame there or any of that that's just a frame of reference you can choose to accept of reference you can choose to accept of reference you can choose to accept but these people didn't and I'm not but these people didn't and I'm not but these people didn't and I'm not going going going to hence midcareer at 66 66 exactly to hence midcareer at 66 66 exactly to hence midcareer at 66 66 exactly right this is this is great news uh you right this is this is great news uh you right this is this is great news uh you know there have been some epic know there have been some epic know there have been some epic interviews that I've had the privilege interviews that I've had the privilege interviews that I've had the privilege of doing over the last decade and uh Tim of doing over the last decade and uh Tim of doing over the last decade and uh Tim Keller may or may not be familiar with Keller may or may not be familiar with Keller may or may not be familiar with him he died a couple years ago but my him he died a couple years ago but my him he died a couple years ago but my good good good what a what a fantastic contribution he what a what a fantastic contribution he what a what a fantastic contribution he made and he does a devotional on the made and he does a devotional on the made and he does a devotional on the Book of Proverbs and the main thing I Book of Proverbs and the main thing I Book of Proverbs and the main thing I did reading a proverb a day for a year did reading a proverb a day for a year did reading a proverb a day for a year was I saw that I need to change how I was I saw that I need to change how I was I saw that I need to change how I look at people so I cannot wait that's look at people so I cannot wait that's look at people so I cannot wait that's an ongoing problem in my life I cannot an ongoing problem in my life I cannot an ongoing problem in my life I cannot wait to get my hands on This research to wait to get my hands on This research to wait to get my hands on This research to see your work Jim any final thought see your work Jim any final thought see your work Jim any final thought you've been super generous with your you've been super generous with your you've been super generous with your time and this has been uh just a time and this has been uh just a time and this has been uh just a tremendous privilege for me to spend tremendous privilege for me to spend tremendous privilege for me to spend this time with you

this time with you this time with you my only um real thought is is to express my only um real thought is is to express my only um real thought is is to express my appreciation for uh your I think very my appreciation for uh your I think very my appreciation for uh your I think very wise uh acceptance of your wise uh acceptance of your wise uh acceptance of your responsibilities as you were describing responsibilities as you were describing responsibilities as you were describing them and them and them and also the the gift you have given me of also the the gift you have given me of also the the gift you have given me of the opportunity to bring a light back to the opportunity to bring a light back to the opportunity to bring a light back to how the Mighty Fall and as you will NE how the Mighty Fall and as you will NE how the Mighty Fall and as you will NE that book will never sell as much as that book will never sell as much as that book will never sell as much as good to great and you know the others good to great and you know the others good to great and you know the others because people want to read about even because people want to read about even because people want to read about even though the comparisons are in there they though the comparisons are in there they though the comparisons are in there they want to read about you know the the want to read about you know the the want to read about you know the the upward inflection not the downward upward inflection not the downward upward inflection not the downward inflection but the truth is that life inflection but the truth is that life inflection but the truth is that life has plenty of opportunity for both and has plenty of opportunity for both and has plenty of opportunity for both and and you're actually and you're actually and you're actually the you know kind of in the emergence of the you know kind of in the emergence of the you know kind of in the emergence of the podcast era uh the first person the podcast era uh the first person the podcast era uh the first person that's actually reached out and said I that's actually reached out and said I that's actually reached out and said I really want to focus on I really want to really want to focus on I really want to really want to focus on I really want to what a light on on how the Mighty Fall what a light on on how the Mighty Fall what a light on on how the Mighty Fall and uh that's a work I'm I really feel and uh that's a work I'm I really feel and uh that's a work I'm I really feel has deep human power in it and I'm just has deep human power in it and I'm just has deep human power in it and I'm just really grateful to you for the really grateful to you for the really grateful to you for the opportunity to shine a light back uh on opportunity to shine a light back uh on opportunity to shine a light back uh on that work because I actually believe that work because I actually believe that work because I actually believe that that that it um it deserves a light shined on it it um it deserves a light shined on it it um it deserves a light shined on it the framework the framework the framework deserves well thank you Jim and you know deserves well thank you Jim and you know deserves well thank you Jim and you know I would just say we have a lot of young I would just say we have a lot of young I would just say we have a lot of young leaders listening and I see how the leaders listening and I see how the leaders listening and I see how the Mighty Fall particularly you know the Mighty Fall particularly you know the Mighty Fall particularly you know the first three stages which which as you first three stages which which as you first three stages which which as you say everything can be up and to the

say everything can be up and to the say everything can be up and to the right and you're in stage three yep and right and you're in stage three yep and right and you're in stage three yep and nobody knows it nobody knows it and you nobody knows it nobody knows it and you nobody knows it nobody knows it and you know what I want to see is I want to see know what I want to see is I want to see know what I want to see is I want to see lives that don't fall I want to see lives that don't fall I want to see lives that don't fall I want to see churches and organizations and churches and organizations and churches and organizations and businesses that continue to thrive uh businesses that continue to thrive uh businesses that continue to thrive uh from generation to generation and if it from generation to generation and if it from generation to generation and if it can operate maybe like warning lights on can operate maybe like warning lights on can operate maybe like warning lights on your dashboard it's like you better your dashboard it's like you better your dashboard it's like you better check service soon on this one right check service soon on this one right check service soon on this one right like hey you should pull over why don't like hey you should pull over why don't like hey you should pull over why don't you hit the next gas station and just you hit the next gas station and just you hit the next gas station and just see if somebody can have a look at this see if somebody can have a look at this see if somebody can have a look at this cuz there's trouble ahead and that's cuz there's trouble ahead and that's cuz there's trouble ahead and that's what it did in my life it came out at a what it did in my life it came out at a what it did in my life it came out at a very providential time there were a very providential time there were a very providential time there were a couple of check engine lights I was able couple of check engine lights I was able couple of check engine lights I was able to get a diagnosis I'm able to keep that to get a diagnosis I'm able to keep that to get a diagnosis I'm able to keep that in my frame I mean you can see it I know in my frame I mean you can see it I know in my frame I mean you can see it I know it's Audio Only it's a very well-worn it's Audio Only it's a very well-worn it's Audio Only it's a very well-worn copy of how the Mighty Fall and I will copy of how the Mighty Fall and I will copy of how the Mighty Fall and I will probably it's one of my top 10 probably it's one of my top 10 probably it's one of my top 10 recommended leadership books for leaders recommended leadership books for leaders recommended leadership books for leaders period and um I'll continue to reread it period and um I'll continue to reread it period and um I'll continue to reread it uh as long as uh I have breath so I want uh as long as uh I have breath so I want uh as long as uh I have breath so I want to thank you for that work and can't to thank you for that work and can't to thank you for that work and can't wait to see what is next for you does wait to see what is next for you does wait to see what is next for you does that book the new work uh The Meta that book the new work uh The Meta that book the new work uh The Meta biography or whatever you would call it biography or whatever you would call it biography or whatever you would call it does that come out next year 2025 do you does that come out next year 2025 do you does that come out next year 2025 do you have a publication date yet no there's have a publication date yet no there's have a publication date yet no there's no publication date yet because I've no publication date yet because I've no publication date yet because I've just been writing it I'm in W I'm very just been writing it I'm in W I'm very just been writing it I'm in W I'm very but I will be done with the but I will be done with the but I will be done with the manuscript before Joan and I go to Italy manuscript before Joan and I go to Italy manuscript before Joan and I go to Italy at the end of August I have sort of a at the end of August I have sort of a at the end of August I have sort of a self-imposed deadline to do that and self-imposed deadline to do that and self-imposed deadline to do that and then it'll go to critical readers and then it'll go to critical readers and then it'll go to critical readers and then and it'll go through the revision

then and it'll go through the revision then and it'll go through the revision and factchecking process I'm very and factchecking process I'm very and factchecking process I'm very fanatic about being factually very fanatic about being factually very fanatic about being factually very accurate and uh and then copy editing accurate and uh and then copy editing accurate and uh and then copy editing from there and then of course it's also from there and then of course it's also from there and then of course it's also possible it could never get published possible it could never get published possible it could never get published because I don't yet have a title and so because I don't yet have a title and so because I don't yet have a title and so maybe it'll just sit there unpublished maybe it'll just sit there unpublished maybe it'll just sit there unpublished without a title but I don't think so without a title but I don't think so without a title but I don't think so I'll come up with the title somehow I'll come up with the title somehow I'll come up with the title somehow titling is such a really hard art titling is such a really hard art titling is such a really hard art actually I've been really lucky with actually I've been really lucky with actually I've been really lucky with titles uh Bill to last good to grade titles uh Bill to last good to grade titles uh Bill to last good to grade great titles but how they happen were great titles but how they happen were great titles but how they happen were totally different I mean good to grade I totally different I mean good to grade I totally different I mean good to grade I had from early had from early had from early built to last happened after I vetoed built to last happened after I vetoed built to last happened after I vetoed 125 terrible 125 terrible 125 terrible titles seriously and then we were almost titles seriously and then we were almost titles seriously and then we were almost like G to miss our publication deadline like G to miss our publication deadline like G to miss our publication deadline they were ready we were like we're gonna they were ready we were like we're gonna they were ready we were like we're gonna have to like go to a whole another have to like go to a whole another have to like go to a whole another season because I just got vetoing titles season because I just got vetoing titles season because I just got vetoing titles and finally uh the the the head of the and finally uh the the the head of the and finally uh the the the head of the Publishing Company U went away on the Publishing Company U went away on the Publishing Company U went away on the weekend and came back and wrote a note weekend and came back and wrote a note weekend and came back and wrote a note to put a little 3x5 card on my editor's to put a little 3x5 card on my editor's to put a little 3x5 card on my editor's desk and said see if they'll go for this desk and said see if they'll go for this desk and said see if they'll go for this and on that was the words built to last and on that was the words built to last and on that was the words built to last and that was it had it and so I have no and that was it had it and so I have no and that was it had it and so I have no pride of authorship at all in where the pride of authorship at all in where the pride of authorship at all in where the title comes from I'm just I'm just title comes from I'm just I'm just title comes from I'm just I'm just crossing my fingers one will magically crossing my fingers one will magically crossing my fingers one will magically appear appear appear so well Jim this has been fantastic so well Jim this has been fantastic so well Jim this has been fantastic thank you so very much you're very thank you so very much you're very thank you so very much you're very welcome and um maybe um down the road welcome and um maybe um down the road welcome and um maybe um down the road we'll we'll chat again in between now we'll we'll chat again in between now we'll we'll chat again in between now and then I will I will make sure that I and then I will I will make sure that I and then I will I will make sure that I stay alive to complete the work well you stay alive to complete the work well you stay alive to complete the work well you do that you're not done yet and you know do that you're not done yet and you know do that you're not done yet and you know that you know that and I would love that you know that and I would love that you know that and I would love another conversation I got to a few

another conversation I got to a few another conversation I got to a few questions along the way but there's so questions along the way but there's so questions along the way but there's so many others and uh you've really blessed many others and uh you've really blessed many others and uh you've really blessed so many of us Jim thank you you're very so many of us Jim thank you you're very so many of us Jim thank you you're very welcome Carrie you take care