The Misleading Advice Every Entrepreneur Gets Wrong with Bill Gurley

I had Larry and Sergey of Google present I had Larry and Sergey of Google present to our partnership when there were 25 to our partnership when there were 25 to our partnership when there were 25 employees. employees. employees. >> So at the very beginning and we failed >> So at the very beginning and we failed >> So at the very beginning and we failed the lay chase. So they presented left the lay chase. So they presented left the lay chase. So they presented left and we didn't try and close that deal and we didn't try and close that deal and we didn't try and close that deal and two of the best venture capitalists and two of the best venture capitalists and two of the best venture capitalists in the world John Door and Mike Moritz in the world John Door and Mike Moritz in the world John Door and Mike Moritz ended up doing that deal. And I can ended up doing that deal. And I can ended up doing that deal. And I can remember at the time there were a couple remember at the time there were a couple remember at the time there were a couple of nos in our mental models. Biggest of nos in our mental models. Biggest of nos in our mental models. Biggest mistake of my career. Welcome to the mistake of my career. Welcome to the mistake of my career. Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. Hey, Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. Hey, Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. Hey, I am so excited to bring you something a I am so excited to bring you something a I am so excited to bring you something a little bit different today. You know, little bit different today. You know, little bit different today. You know, while we're focused on helping leaders while we're focused on helping leaders while we're focused on helping leaders in the church space, that's people who in the church space, that's people who in the church space, that's people who work at churches, volunteer, sit on work at churches, volunteer, sit on work at churches, volunteer, sit on boards, invest, that kind of thing. boards, invest, that kind of thing. boards, invest, that kind of thing. Today, I'm going to talk to Bill Gurley. Today, I'm going to talk to Bill Gurley. Today, I'm going to talk to Bill Gurley. He is the man behind Uber, Snapchat, He is the man behind Uber, Snapchat, He is the man behind Uber, Snapchat, Twitter, uh what else? Open table, Twitter, uh what else? Open table, Twitter, uh what else? Open table, Zillow. Uh what did he do? Well, he Zillow. Uh what did he do? Well, he Zillow. Uh what did he do? Well, he invested in these companies when they invested in these companies when they invested in these companies when they were very, very early stage. And my were very, very early stage. And my were very, very early stage. And my goodness, this is a fascinating goodness, this is a fascinating goodness, this is a fascinating conversation. We talk about why you, if conversation. We talk about why you, if conversation. We talk about why you, if you're thinking about what you should do you're thinking about what you should do you're thinking about what you should do with your life, shouldn't chase your with your life, shouldn't chase your with your life, shouldn't chase your passion. You got to chase something else passion. You got to chase something else passion. You got to chase something else instead. The delusional factor every instead. The delusional factor every instead. The delusional factor every outlier needs. I find that fascinating.

outlier needs. I find that fascinating. outlier needs. I find that fascinating. Right? If you're a church planter or you Right? If you're a church planter or you Right? If you're a church planter or you want to reinvent a church, are you want to reinvent a church, are you want to reinvent a church, are you delusional? Maybe you need to be. And delusional? Maybe you need to be. And delusional? Maybe you need to be. And how to actually find your dream job. So, how to actually find your dream job. So, how to actually find your dream job. So, welcome to the podcast. Really glad you welcome to the podcast. Really glad you welcome to the podcast. Really glad you joined us. I want this to be a very good joined us. I want this to be a very good joined us. I want this to be a very good investment of basically 90 minutes for investment of basically 90 minutes for investment of basically 90 minutes for this one. It could have gone much this one. It could have gone much this one. It could have gone much longer. Uh Bill is just fascinating. He longer. Uh Bill is just fascinating. He longer. Uh Bill is just fascinating. He is a general partner at Benchmark, a is a general partner at Benchmark, a is a general partner at Benchmark, a leading venture capital firm in Silicon leading venture capital firm in Silicon leading venture capital firm in Silicon Valley. Over his investment career, he Valley. Over his investment career, he Valley. Over his investment career, he has invested in and served on the board has invested in and served on the board has invested in and served on the board of such companies as Next Door, Open of such companies as Next Door, Open of such companies as Next Door, Open Table, Stitch Fix, Uber, and Zillow. For Table, Stitch Fix, Uber, and Zillow. For Table, Stitch Fix, Uber, and Zillow. For more than two decades, he's written more than two decades, he's written more than two decades, he's written about technology and other subjects. On about technology and other subjects. On about technology and other subjects. On his very popular blog, Above the Crowd, his very popular blog, Above the Crowd, his very popular blog, Above the Crowd, and on his social media accounts, he's and on his social media accounts, he's and on his social media accounts, he's very active on X. And now, I think very active on X. And now, I think very active on X. And now, I think you're going to enjoy this conversation you're going to enjoy this conversation you're going to enjoy this conversation as much as I do. My conversation with as much as I do. My conversation with as much as I do. My conversation with Bill Gurly. Well, Bill, I've appreciated Bill Gurly. Well, Bill, I've appreciated Bill Gurly. Well, Bill, I've appreciated your work as an outsider uh for a while your work as an outsider uh for a while your work as an outsider uh for a while now. I think I first heard about you on now. I think I first heard about you on now. I think I first heard about you on Tim Ferrris's show years ago, and so I'm Tim Ferrris's show years ago, and so I'm Tim Ferrris's show years ago, and so I'm really delighted to have this really delighted to have this really delighted to have this conversation with you. We're going to conversation with you. We're going to conversation with you. We're going to talk career, going to talk AI, going to talk career, going to talk AI, going to talk career, going to talk AI, going to talk about everything. Welcome.

talk about everything. Welcome. talk about everything. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me on. >> Thanks for having me on. >> Thanks for having me on. >> Yeah. So, you know, I want to go back to >> Yeah. So, you know, I want to go back to >> Yeah. So, you know, I want to go back to the genesis of your career. You played the genesis of your career. You played the genesis of your career. You played some basketball. You're a tall guy. Is some basketball. You're a tall guy. Is some basketball. You're a tall guy. Is it 69? Is the internet correct on that? it 69? Is the internet correct on that? it 69? Is the internet correct on that? >> I'm getting older. Start going the other >> I'm getting older. Start going the other >> I'm getting older. Start going the other direction. direction. direction. >> Was was 69. Yeah. I'm afraid >> Was was 69. Yeah. I'm afraid >> Was was 69. Yeah. I'm afraid [clears throat] to measure myself at [clears throat] to measure myself at [clears throat] to measure myself at this stage. I was 6'2, but this stage. I was 6'2, but this stage. I was 6'2, but >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I don't know whether I'm still hanging >> I don't know whether I'm still hanging >> I don't know whether I'm still hanging in there or not. Um, but you started at in there or not. Um, but you started at in there or not. Um, but you started at Compact, which is a company a lot of Compact, which is a company a lot of Compact, which is a company a lot of listeners wouldn't even really remember, listeners wouldn't even really remember, listeners wouldn't even really remember, but I remember it. I'm of a certain but I remember it. I'm of a certain but I remember it. I'm of a certain vintage. vintage. vintage. >> Uh, and then you moved into Wall Street >> Uh, and then you moved into Wall Street >> Uh, and then you moved into Wall Street Research before becoming a VC. And now Research before becoming a VC. And now Research before becoming a VC. And now you're reinventing yourself again. VC, you're reinventing yourself again. VC, you're reinventing yourself again. VC, venture capitalist. venture capitalist. venture capitalist. >> Uh, a lot of people would have been very >> Uh, a lot of people would have been very >> Uh, a lot of people would have been very comfortable staying at Compact, would comfortable staying at Compact, would comfortable staying at Compact, would have been like, "Wow, I got a career have been like, "Wow, I got a career have been like, "Wow, I got a career here." And even if, you know, the here." And even if, you know, the here." And even if, you know, the company didn't survive, you can move to company didn't survive, you can move to company didn't survive, you can move to Intel, you can move to, uh, Nvidia. I Intel, you can move to, uh, Nvidia. I Intel, you can move to, uh, Nvidia. I mean, you could be retired or, you know, mean, you could be retired or, you know, mean, you could be retired or, you know, CEO at this point. So, what what made CEO at this point. So, what what made CEO at this point. So, what what made you decide early on that you wanted to you decide early on that you wanted to you decide early on that you wanted to make a jump? make a jump? make a jump? >> Well, it's interesting. Um, in talking >> Well, it's interesting. Um, in talking >> Well, it's interesting. Um, in talking through this, um, you know, I I wrote through this, um, you know, I I wrote through this, um, you know, I I wrote this book, not about myself very this book, not about myself very this book, not about myself very intentionally, which we can get to intentionally, which we can get to intentionally, which we can get to later. But in when I when I've been later. But in when I when I've been later. But in when I when I've been talking to people about the book, um, talking to people about the book, um, talking to people about the book, um, this comes up a lot and I've actually this comes up a lot and I've actually this comes up a lot and I've actually developed a bit of a huristic on what developed a bit of a huristic on what developed a bit of a huristic on what happened in those two situations that happened in those two situations that happened in those two situations that isn't in the book. I I kind of wish isn't in the book. I I kind of wish isn't in the book. I I kind of wish maybe it was, but um, in both cases um, maybe it was, but um, in both cases um, maybe it was, but um, in both cases um, I was at a I was about two to three

I was at a I was about two to three I was at a I was about two to three years into that part of my career. So, years into that part of my career. So, years into that part of my career. So, an I was an engineer, an I was an engineer, an I was an engineer, computer science engineer at Compact, computer science engineer at Compact, computer science engineer at Compact, working on products that were shipping, working on products that were shipping, working on products that were shipping, desktop computers. Um, and and I'll tell desktop computers. Um, and and I'll tell desktop computers. Um, and and I'll tell you about the other job in a minute, but you about the other job in a minute, but you about the other job in a minute, but I had this moment where I just stopped I had this moment where I just stopped I had this moment where I just stopped and reflected and asked myself the and reflected and asked myself the and reflected and asked myself the question, is this what I want to be question, is this what I want to be question, is this what I want to be doing for the next 30 years? And I don't doing for the next 30 years? And I don't doing for the next 30 years? And I don't know why I was able to know why I was able to know why I was able to ask myself that question and um but but ask myself that question and um but but ask myself that question and um but but but it was provocative in my mind and but it was provocative in my mind and but it was provocative in my mind and very clear the answer and what happened very clear the answer and what happened very clear the answer and what happened in that case um my my brain goes you in that case um my my brain goes you in that case um my my brain goes you know all the time in every direction and know all the time in every direction and know all the time in every direction and you know people might call that ADD I you know people might call that ADD I you know people might call that ADD I very curious about a broad variety of very curious about a broad variety of very curious about a broad variety of things and when the third project I was things and when the third project I was things and when the third project I was working on started at compact. It looked working on started at compact. It looked working on started at compact. It looked a lot like the second one and a lot like a lot like the second one and a lot like a lot like the second one and a lot like the first one and in my brain and maybe the first one and in my brain and maybe the first one and in my brain and maybe that's what allowed me to do the 30-year that's what allowed me to do the 30-year that's what allowed me to do the 30-year thing. It was going to be monotonous and thing. It was going to be monotonous and thing. It was going to be monotonous and and so I I needed something else and I and so I I needed something else and I and so I I needed something else and I was another huristic that could be was another huristic that could be was another huristic that could be borrowed from that. I had started to borrowed from that. I had started to borrowed from that. I had started to develop other interests. So I had read develop other interests. So I had read develop other interests. So I had read this book um um one up on Wall Street by this book um um one up on Wall Street by this book um um one up on Wall Street by Peter Lynch. I was beginning to buy Peter Lynch. I was beginning to buy Peter Lynch. I was beginning to buy stocks and so my spare time outside the stocks and so my spare time outside the stocks and so my spare time outside the office was doing other things which I

office was doing other things which I office was doing other things which I think is a hint like if what it is you think is a hint like if what it is you think is a hint like if what it is you do in your spare time might be that do in your spare time might be that do in your spare time might be that thing that you're ult ultimately most thing that you're ult ultimately most thing that you're ult ultimately most curious about and so I went to business curious about and so I went to business curious about and so I went to business school um I I I toyed with the idea of school um I I I toyed with the idea of school um I I I toyed with the idea of venture capital there like it came into venture capital there like it came into venture capital there like it came into my brain um John Door the famous venture my brain um John Door the famous venture my brain um John Door the famous venture capitalist was on the compact board capitalist was on the compact board capitalist was on the compact board compact was a very hot um high-tech compact was a very hot um high-tech compact was a very hot um high-tech company. Even though it was in Houston, company. Even though it was in Houston, company. Even though it was in Houston, it it was a bit of an outlier that way it it was a bit of an outlier that way it it was a bit of an outlier that way from location, but it was big and it it from location, but it was big and it it from location, but it was big and it it went public. It was worth a lot. Um and went public. It was worth a lot. Um and went public. It was worth a lot. Um and that didn't look like there was a path that didn't look like there was a path that didn't look like there was a path from business school at University of from business school at University of from business school at University of Texas into VC. And so I took a different Texas into VC. And so I took a different Texas into VC. And so I took a different route. I had become a bit enamored route. I had become a bit enamored route. I had become a bit enamored reading about Wall Street analysts that reading about Wall Street analysts that reading about Wall Street analysts that get quoted all the time on their get quoted all the time on their get quoted all the time on their industry. and I went to New York industry. and I went to New York industry. and I went to New York and that job was wonderful. I loved and that job was wonderful. I loved and that job was wonderful. I loved every minute of it. Like it gave me every minute of it. Like it gave me every minute of it. Like it gave me unbelievable access. But one day, um, I unbelievable access. But one day, um, I unbelievable access. But one day, um, I was working that that those those early was working that that those those early was working that that those those early Wall Street jobs, you're working 7:00 Wall Street jobs, you're working 7:00 Wall Street jobs, you're working 7:00 a.m. to 9 or 10:00 p.m. And I was at the a.m. to 9 or 10:00 p.m. And I was at the a.m. to 9 or 10:00 p.m. And I was at the office and it was like 8:00 p.m. And I office and it was like 8:00 p.m. And I office and it was like 8:00 p.m. And I walked around and the there were four walked around and the there were four walked around and the there were four corner offices on this square building corner offices on this square building corner offices on this square building in New York and they were all the most in New York and they were all the most in New York and they were all the most senior analyst. And I walked around the senior analyst. And I walked around the senior analyst. And I walked around the building and I stopped in each one of building and I stopped in each one of building and I stopped in each one of their offices. And [clears throat] that their offices. And [clears throat] that their offices. And [clears throat] that moment gave me that same reflection game moment gave me that same reflection game moment gave me that same reflection game where I was saying to myself, do I want

where I was saying to myself, do I want where I was saying to myself, do I want to be in this corner office 30 years to be in this corner office 30 years to be in this corner office 30 years from now? Do I want like my time on this from now? Do I want like my time on this from now? Do I want like my time on this earth to be tied into being the best earth to be tied into being the best earth to be tied into being the best Wall Street analyst I could possibly be? Wall Street analyst I could possibly be? Wall Street analyst I could possibly be? And the answer came up, no again. Um, And the answer came up, no again. Um, And the answer came up, no again. Um, even though I'd been quite successful. even though I'd been quite successful. even though I'd been quite successful. And so I started looking to pivot out And so I started looking to pivot out And so I started looking to pivot out and found my way to Silicon Valley and and found my way to Silicon Valley and and found my way to Silicon Valley and to be a venture capitalist where I was to be a venture capitalist where I was to be a venture capitalist where I was quite comfortable with the the question quite comfortable with the the question quite comfortable with the the question there. I never it never it never came there. I never it never it never came there. I never it never it never came up. I never pondered as a VC is this up. I never pondered as a VC is this up. I never pondered as a VC is this what you know is this what you want to what you know is this what you want to what you know is this what you want to be doing 25 30 years from now. And I had be doing 25 30 years from now. And I had be doing 25 30 years from now. And I had a remarkably a remarkably a remarkably um fulfilling career. It was successful um fulfilling career. It was successful um fulfilling career. It was successful also but but I loved the everyday work also but but I loved the everyday work also but but I loved the everyday work product of it. Um, so that's that's the product of it. Um, so that's that's the product of it. Um, so that's that's the journey journey journey >> for those of us who who don't really >> for those of us who who don't really >> for those of us who who don't really understand that, you know, we've all understand that, you know, we've all understand that, you know, we've all heard about venture capital but might heard about venture capital but might heard about venture capital but might not understand it. not understand it. not understand it. >> I think one of the reasons that made >> I think one of the reasons that made >> I think one of the reasons that made ministry so interesting to me is it's a ministry so interesting to me is it's a ministry so interesting to me is it's a different message every week.

different message every week. different message every week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um there's a common set of challenges. >> Um there's a common set of challenges. >> Um there's a common set of challenges. That's the thing I love about now. Like That's the thing I love about now. Like That's the thing I love about now. Like we're 800 episodes into this podcast. we're 800 episodes into this podcast. we're 800 episodes into this podcast. >> Every guest is different. Really >> Every guest is different. Really >> Every guest is different. Really fascinating to me. And you know, I'm fascinating to me. And you know, I'm fascinating to me. And you know, I'm fortunate I get to say who comes on the fortunate I get to say who comes on the fortunate I get to say who comes on the show and who doesn't come on the show. show and who doesn't come on the show. show and who doesn't come on the show. So that's a lot of fun. We get a lot of So that's a lot of fun. We get a lot of So that's a lot of fun. We get a lot of pitches. pitches. pitches. >> Um I I get to write a different book >> Um I I get to write a different book >> Um I I get to write a different book every few years and it's like ah this every few years and it's like ah this every few years and it's like ah this one's really got me right now. one's really got me right now. one's really got me right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What what is what is it about venture >> What what is what is it about venture >> What what is what is it about venture capital that kept your interest for how capital that kept your interest for how capital that kept your interest for how many years was that Bill? Was that 25? many years was that Bill? Was that 25? many years was that Bill? Was that 25? I I think the diversity is a big part of I I think the diversity is a big part of I I think the diversity is a big part of it. And I think I I I've I've come to it. And I think I I I've I've come to it. And I think I I I've I've come to realize that that there are a lot of realize that that there are a lot of realize that that there are a lot of people that kind of favor diversity and people that kind of favor diversity and people that kind of favor diversity and breadth over everything else. And I breadth over everything else. And I breadth over everything else. And I think they're the people that end up in think they're the people that end up in think they're the people that end up in I think there's several jobs that that I think there's several jobs that that I think there's several jobs that that that yield to that. I think everything that yield to that. I think everything that yield to that. I think everything from a lawyer to a consultant to an from a lawyer to a consultant to an from a lawyer to a consultant to an investment banker, like these service investment banker, like these service investment banker, like these service type jobs, you're out meeting with type jobs, you're out meeting with type jobs, you're out meeting with different clients all the time. And so different clients all the time. And so different clients all the time. And so you just end up with more breath. You you just end up with more breath. You you just end up with more breath. You trade off for that a lack of detail and trade off for that a lack of detail and trade off for that a lack of detail and maybe a lack of ownership. Like some maybe a lack of ownership. Like some maybe a lack of ownership. Like some people really want to be in the weeds people really want to be in the weeds people really want to be in the weeds and in control and these jobs are far and in control and these jobs are far and in control and these jobs are far from that. like and so, you know, from that. like and so, you know, from that. like and so, you know, getting in touch with with what getting in touch with with what getting in touch with with what motivates you and and look, thank God motivates you and and look, thank God motivates you and and look, thank God there are people that want to be in the there are people that want to be in the there are people that want to be in the weeds like a founder that want to um weeds like a founder that want to um weeds like a founder that want to um lead 500 people and and therefore you lead 500 people and and therefore you lead 500 people and and therefore you have CEOs because like the have CEOs because like the have CEOs because like the [clears throat] venture capital job [clears throat] venture capital job [clears throat] venture capital job wouldn't work if those other people wouldn't work if those other people wouldn't work if those other people weren't great at those roles. Um but

weren't great at those roles. Um but weren't great at those roles. Um but >> yeah, so you're basically choosing >> yeah, so you're basically choosing >> yeah, so you're basically choosing projects to fund, right? Startups, etc. projects to fund, right? Startups, etc. projects to fund, right? Startups, etc. >> Yeah. and and and in addition to >> Yeah. and and and in addition to >> Yeah. and and and in addition to diversity, one of the other amazing diversity, one of the other amazing diversity, one of the other amazing things about venture is the edge always things about venture is the edge always things about venture is the edge always keeps moving. And [snorts] so over those keeps moving. And [snorts] so over those keeps moving. And [snorts] so over those 25 years, you know, the type of 25 years, you know, the type of 25 years, you know, the type of companies today, which are all AI companies today, which are all AI companies today, which are all AI companies, are very different from the companies, are very different from the companies, are very different from the type of companies that I funded when I type of companies that I funded when I type of companies that I funded when I first got in and that you have to first got in and that you have to first got in and that you have to constantly evolve with the with whatever constantly evolve with the with whatever constantly evolve with the with whatever is new and innovative on the edge, which is new and innovative on the edge, which is new and innovative on the edge, which is another form of learning. So, I think is another form of learning. So, I think is another form of learning. So, I think that was another part of it is I just that was another part of it is I just that was another part of it is I just love the idea that there's constant love the idea that there's constant love the idea that there's constant change. It's very dynamic. You have to change. It's very dynamic. You have to change. It's very dynamic. You have to learn and if everything's moving that learn and if everything's moving that learn and if everything's moving that way and you can figure things out, um way and you can figure things out, um way and you can figure things out, um you get rewarded for it. And so, it like you get rewarded for it. And so, it like you get rewarded for it. And so, it like it's a it's a it's a complex puzzle that it's a it's a it's a complex puzzle that it's a it's a it's a complex puzzle that way. way. way. >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I'm >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I'm >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I'm sure you picked some losers o over time, sure you picked some losers o over time, sure you picked some losers o over time, but you picked a couple of winners more but you picked a couple of winners more but you picked a couple of winners more than more than your share. So, you know, than more than your share. So, you know, than more than your share. So, you know, you were involved in the Amazon IPO. Uh, you were involved in the Amazon IPO. Uh, you were involved in the Amazon IPO. Uh, you invested in companies like Uber and you invested in companies like Uber and you invested in companies like Uber and Zillow. I mean, which have all gone on Zillow. I mean, which have all gone on Zillow. I mean, which have all gone on to become household names and household to become household names and household to become household names and household realities.

realities. realities. >> I'd love to know how did you and again >> I'd love to know how did you and again >> I'd love to know how did you and again feel free to talk about the losses, but feel free to talk about the losses, but feel free to talk about the losses, but it is interesting. it is interesting. it is interesting. >> You had a you had a pretty good track >> You had a you had a pretty good track >> You had a you had a pretty good track record as a venture capitalist. What record as a venture capitalist. What record as a venture capitalist. What were you looking for? And how did you were you looking for? And how did you were you looking for? And how did you learn to spot a winner? Well, there's I learn to spot a winner? Well, there's I learn to spot a winner? Well, there's I mean there's a lot of losers by the way mean there's a lot of losers by the way mean there's a lot of losers by the way and and and and one thing about venture and and and and one thing about venture and and and and one thing about venture capital is that the the outsized capital is that the the outsized capital is that the the outsized um outcomes that come with the winners um outcomes that come with the winners um outcomes that come with the winners make up for lots and lots of losers. So make up for lots and lots of losers. So make up for lots and lots of losers. So the because when they work really well, the because when they work really well, the because when they work really well, you get a thousand or even 10,000 times you get a thousand or even 10,000 times you get a thousand or even 10,000 times your money. So it's right your money. So it's right your money. So it's right >> it's a weird it's a weird game of home >> it's a weird it's a weird game of home >> it's a weird it's a weird game of home runs. Um, what do I look for? Um, I I runs. Um, what do I look for? Um, I I runs. Um, what do I look for? Um, I I really I w I stumbled upon this um really I w I stumbled upon this um really I w I stumbled upon this um article in 1996 by Brian Arthur about article in 1996 by Brian Arthur about article in 1996 by Brian Arthur about increasing [clears throat] increasing [clears throat] increasing [clears throat] returns which was in Harvard Business returns which was in Harvard Business returns which was in Harvard Business Review and it's really another word Review and it's really another word Review and it's really another word people use to describe that phenomena is people use to describe that phenomena is people use to describe that phenomena is network effects. But once the internet network effects. But once the internet network effects. But once the internet came along, there was scenarios where if came along, there was scenarios where if came along, there was scenarios where if if a company could get started, the if a company could get started, the if a company could get started, the function of being bigger would actually function of being bigger would actually function of being bigger would actually serve to their benefit. And so rather serve to their benefit. And so rather serve to their benefit. And so rather than becoming slower, you actually than becoming slower, you actually than becoming slower, you actually became faster. And Open Table was became faster. And Open Table was became faster. And Open Table was another one of my investments and another one of my investments and another one of my investments and probably one of the first ones.

probably one of the first ones. probably one of the first ones. >> Oh yeah, Open Table. My goodness, I use >> Oh yeah, Open Table. My goodness, I use >> Oh yeah, Open Table. My goodness, I use that every time we go out. that every time we go out. that every time we go out. >> Yeah. So when when I we we funded that >> Yeah. So when when I we we funded that >> Yeah. So when when I we we funded that when there were three restaurants and when there were three restaurants and when there were three restaurants and what what we what we realized and we the what what we what we realized and we the what what we what we realized and we the bet we made at the time was if we can bet we made at the time was if we can bet we made at the time was if we can make it successful then everyone will make it successful then everyone will make it successful then everyone will have to be on the same network. And so have to be on the same network. And so have to be on the same network. And so you have this network effect and the you have this network effect and the you have this network effect and the more restaurants that are on it, the more restaurants that are on it, the more restaurants that are on it, the more the consumer will want to use it. more the consumer will want to use it. more the consumer will want to use it. And the more the consumer wants to use And the more the consumer wants to use And the more the consumer wants to use it, the more the other restaurants will it, the more the other restaurants will it, the more the other restaurants will need to be on it. And so that's that need to be on it. And so that's that need to be on it. And so that's that network effect. And so a big part of my network effect. And so a big part of my network effect. And so a big part of my career was was understanding that career was was understanding that career was was understanding that concept early and looking for scenarios concept early and looking for scenarios concept early and looking for scenarios where that kind of scen where that kind where that kind of scen where that kind where that kind of scen where that kind of function would play out in the way of function would play out in the way of function would play out in the way the market worked. I mean the other the market worked. I mean the other the market worked. I mean the other things you you know you hear if you talk things you you know you hear if you talk things you you know you hear if you talk you talk to 10 VCs you're going to get a you talk to 10 VCs you're going to get a you talk to 10 VCs you're going to get a lot of common thoughts. You're going to lot of common thoughts. You're going to lot of common thoughts. You're going to hear about great founders that are hear about great founders that are hear about great founders that are tenacious, won't stop, can't stop, um tenacious, won't stop, can't stop, um tenacious, won't stop, can't stop, um super talented. um they need to be super talented. um they need to be super talented. um they need to be really good at sales. Like I don't think really good at sales. Like I don't think really good at sales. Like I don't think people understand but like the founder people understand but like the founder people understand but like the founder is selling for more money, is selling is selling for more money, is selling is selling for more money, is selling for bisdev deals, is selling customers, for bisdev deals, is selling customers, for bisdev deals, is selling customers, is recruiting which is selling. So is recruiting which is selling. So is recruiting which is selling. So they're just selling all the time and they're just selling all the time and they're just selling all the time and they have to be great at it. Um so they have to be great at it. Um so they have to be great at it. Um so that's something you're evaluating very that's something you're evaluating very that's something you're evaluating very quickly um early on when you're talking quickly um early on when you're talking quickly um early on when you're talking to a founder. And then another big one to a founder. And then another big one to a founder. And then another big one and is and this kind of goes across our and is and this kind of goes across our and is and this kind of goes across our entire portfolio. Most startups that are

entire portfolio. Most startups that are entire portfolio. Most startups that are successful have come up with some um successful have come up with some um successful have come up with some um advantage path to market. So they advantage path to market. So they advantage path to market. So they they've they've figured out some they've they've figured out some they've they've figured out some interesting way to get customers faster. interesting way to get customers faster. interesting way to get customers faster. And in for enterprise or B2B companies And in for enterprise or B2B companies And in for enterprise or B2B companies that can be very different from B TOC that can be very different from B TOC that can be very different from B TOC but they they they usually have come up but they they they usually have come up but they they they usually have come up with some idea of how to get their sales with some idea of how to get their sales with some idea of how to get their sales momentum faster. momentum faster. momentum faster. >> H okay this is interesting in in >> H okay this is interesting in in >> H okay this is interesting in in addition to the church leaders listening addition to the church leaders listening addition to the church leaders listening we've got uh people in the business we've got uh people in the business we've got uh people in the business world who tend to fund the churches who world who tend to fund the churches who world who tend to fund the churches who sit on the board who are adviserss to sit on the board who are adviserss to sit on the board who are adviserss to pastors and some of them you know part pastors and some of them you know part pastors and some of them you know part of church plants. Some of them honestly of church plants. Some of them honestly of church plants. Some of them honestly are are part of some of the biggest are are part of some of the biggest are are part of some of the biggest churches in the country. So I want to churches in the country. So I want to churches in the country. So I want to take you back to Open Table. They have take you back to Open Table. They have take you back to Open Table. They have three restaurants three restaurants three restaurants >> signed up and for those of you who may >> signed up and for those of you who may >> signed up and for those of you who may have never used it, it's a very what have never used it, it's a very what have never used it, it's a very what North America global or North America global or North America global or >> No, it's global. I one one of my one of >> No, it's global. I one one of my one of >> No, it's global. I one one of my one of my proudest moments my wife and I walked my proudest moments my wife and I walked my proudest moments my wife and I walked into a restaurant in Bali and saw it on into a restaurant in Bali and saw it on into a restaurant in Bali and saw it on the the on the desk there at the front the the on the desk there at the front the the on the desk there at the front and I was like, "Wow, this thing really and I was like, "Wow, this thing really and I was like, "Wow, this thing really did it really did work."

did it really did work." did it really did work." >> Really took off. So, it's a it's a it's >> Really took off. So, it's a it's a it's >> Really took off. So, it's a it's a it's a uh restaurant reservation system, a uh restaurant reservation system, a uh restaurant reservation system, basically. I want to have dinner in basically. I want to have dinner in basically. I want to have dinner in Atlanta. What's open tonight? Can I find Atlanta. What's open tonight? Can I find Atlanta. What's open tonight? Can I find an open table? And like I said, I've an open table? And like I said, I've an open table? And like I said, I've I've used it for years and years and I've used it for years and years and I've used it for years and years and years. Um, but when you're looking at years. Um, but when you're looking at years. Um, but when you're looking at those those uh co-founders or the those those uh co-founders or the those those uh co-founders or the founder and they have three clients, you founder and they have three clients, you founder and they have three clients, you listed some of the things, but if you listed some of the things, but if you listed some of the things, but if you could take us into a case study because could take us into a case study because could take us into a case study because some of the people listening are going some of the people listening are going some of the people listening are going to fund church plants and they're like, to fund church plants and they're like, to fund church plants and they're like, "Okay, is this person is this couple the "Okay, is this person is this couple the "Okay, is this person is this couple the kind of person I'm going to hitch my kind of person I'm going to hitch my kind of person I'm going to hitch my wagon to? The kind of person that we're wagon to? The kind of person that we're wagon to? The kind of person that we're going to give meaningful money to to get going to give meaningful money to to get going to give meaningful money to to get this church off the ground, right? this church off the ground, right? this church off the ground, right? Church starts." Church starts." Church starts." >> So, I'd love to know the the the >> So, I'd love to know the the the >> So, I'd love to know the the the thinking you had. You know, the the thinking you had. You know, the the thinking you had. You know, the the thing that and I you're asking me to thing that and I you're asking me to thing that and I you're asking me to weigh into a category I've never um you weigh into a category I've never um you weigh into a category I've never um you know, thought about professionally, but know, thought about professionally, but know, thought about professionally, but I'll do it. Like um I'll do it. Like um I'll do it. Like um >> I would think this go to market >> I would think this go to market >> I would think this go to market advantage thing would be more what you'd advantage thing would be more what you'd advantage thing would be more what you'd be looking for. So, you know, I look at be looking for. So, you know, I look at be looking for. So, you know, I look at the the the I look at the entrepreneurial I look at the entrepreneurial I look at the entrepreneurial entrepreneurs that hustle the most and entrepreneurs that hustle the most and entrepreneurs that hustle the most and especially when you're dealing with especially when you're dealing with especially when you're dealing with consumers and they know how to leverage consumers and they know how to leverage consumers and they know how to leverage all these new technologies that are out all these new technologies that are out all these new technologies that are out there and this would be true of a there and this would be true of a there and this would be true of a podcaster too obviously, but like how to podcaster too obviously, but like how to podcaster too obviously, but like how to leverage, you know, Tik Tok, Instagram leverage, you know, Tik Tok, Instagram leverage, you know, Tik Tok, Instagram reels, you know, Twitter, whatever, like reels, you know, Twitter, whatever, like reels, you know, Twitter, whatever, like like I would I think that that's an area

like I would I think that that's an area like I would I think that that's an area where you could really um move the where you could really um move the where you could really um move the needle and and grow much faster if you needle and and grow much faster if you needle and and grow much faster if you had awareness and understood what best had awareness and understood what best had awareness and understood what best practice was in those areas. practice was in those areas. practice was in those areas. >> This episode is sponsored by Church >> This episode is sponsored by Church >> This episode is sponsored by Church Growth Engine. So, here's the tension Growth Engine. So, here's the tension Growth Engine. So, here's the tension every pastor feels. You want numerical every pastor feels. You want numerical every pastor feels. You want numerical growth, but you care more about growth, but you care more about growth, but you care more about spiritual depth. You need practical spiritual depth. You need practical spiritual depth. You need practical strategies, but you refuse to compromise strategies, but you refuse to compromise strategies, but you refuse to compromise your theological convictions. You're your theological convictions. You're your theological convictions. You're called to lead, but you're exhausted called to lead, but you're exhausted called to lead, but you're exhausted from trying everything. Church Growth from trying everything. Church Growth from trying everything. Church Growth Engine gets it. This isn't another Engine gets it. This isn't another Engine gets it. This isn't another growth at all cost newsletter. It's growth at all cost newsletter. It's growth at all cost newsletter. It's about helping your church thrive about helping your church thrive about helping your church thrive holistically, prioritizing deeper holistically, prioritizing deeper holistically, prioritizing deeper engagement, stronger community impact, engagement, stronger community impact, engagement, stronger community impact, authentic spiritual formation, and yes, authentic spiritual formation, and yes, authentic spiritual formation, and yes, sustainable growth. Every Tuesday, sustainable growth. Every Tuesday, sustainable growth. Every Tuesday, you'll get researchbacked insights on you'll get researchbacked insights on you'll get researchbacked insights on what's working right now in churches what's working right now in churches what's working right now in churches your size. Recent issues explored how 30 your size. Recent issues explored how 30 your size. Recent issues explored how 30 million Americans embrace Jesus outside million Americans embrace Jesus outside million Americans embrace Jesus outside of church walls, why autism friendly of church walls, why autism friendly of church walls, why autism friendly services open new ministry services open new ministry services open new ministry opportunities, and how churches are opportunities, and how churches are opportunities, and how churches are using AI without losing their pastoral using AI without losing their pastoral using AI without losing their pastoral heart. Subscribe for free and start heart. Subscribe for free and start heart. Subscribe for free and start building a church that grows in every building a church that grows in every building a church that grows in every way that matters. Visit way that matters. Visit way that matters. Visit churchgrowthengine.com.

churchgrowthengine.com. churchgrowthengine.com. Yeah, I think you're right. I think, you Yeah, I think you're right. I think, you Yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, part of it, it's like business. know, part of it, it's like business. know, part of it, it's like business. Many church plants fail in the first Many church plants fail in the first Many church plants fail in the first three years. Not because of vision, not three years. Not because of vision, not three years. Not because of vision, not because of faith, not because of hope. because of faith, not because of hope. because of faith, not because of hope. They just they don't make it. But then They just they don't make it. But then They just they don't make it. But then there are some that just go there are some that just go there are some that just go astronomical, right? That go really astronomical, right? That go really astronomical, right? That go really really big. Um really big. Um really big. Um >> and my guess is those had those skills I >> and my guess is those had those skills I >> and my guess is those had those skills I just described. [laughter] just described. [laughter] just described. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And the >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And the >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And the investors behind them probably saw that, investors behind them probably saw that, investors behind them probably saw that, right? And like you say, you fund a few right? And like you say, you fund a few right? And like you say, you fund a few or you give to a few and they don't or you give to a few and they don't or you give to a few and they don't really pan out and then you give to some really pan out and then you give to some really pan out and then you give to some and it just and it just and it just >> you don't get an ROI [clears throat] >> you don't get an ROI [clears throat] >> you don't get an ROI [clears throat] financially if you're doing that with financially if you're doing that with financially if you're doing that with the church plant, but you get one in the church plant, but you get one in the church plant, but you get one in terms of wow, we we made this happen. terms of wow, we we made this happen. terms of wow, we we made this happen. Look at it go. Um, for a young leader Look at it go. Um, for a young leader Look at it go. Um, for a young leader listening, whether they're planting a listening, whether they're planting a listening, whether they're planting a church or or starting a company, church or or starting a company, church or or starting a company, [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] how would you describe the difference how would you describe the difference how would you describe the difference between healthy risk and reckless risk? between healthy risk and reckless risk? between healthy risk and reckless risk? I mean, every entrepreneur takes a risk. I mean, every entrepreneur takes a risk. I mean, every entrepreneur takes a risk. A lot of them kind of go under, right? A lot of them kind of go under, right? A lot of them kind of go under, right? So, what is it like? How do you know So, what is it like? How do you know So, what is it like? How do you know you're not delusional when you're like, you're not delusional when you're like, you're not delusional when you're like, "We're going to take over the world.

"We're going to take over the world. "We're going to take over the world. We're going to be in every restaurant in We're going to be in every restaurant in We're going to be in every restaurant in the world and [clears throat] you know, the world and [clears throat] you know, the world and [clears throat] you know, like like some of that's delusional and like like some of that's delusional and like like some of that's delusional and then sometimes it happens." I think it's then sometimes it happens." I think it's then sometimes it happens." I think it's a an an extremely provocative question, a an an extremely provocative question, a an an extremely provocative question, Carrie, and it and it's the the reality Carrie, and it and it's the the reality Carrie, and it and it's the the reality is we often don't know and and it's very is we often don't know and and it's very is we often don't know and and it's very one one thing we've learned the hard way one one thing we've learned the hard way one one thing we've learned the hard way is it's very hard to pass on the one is it's very hard to pass on the one is it's very hard to pass on the one that seems that seems that seems a little bit crazy like you know and you a little bit crazy like you know and you a little bit crazy like you know and you go back to that classic um Steve Jobs go back to that classic um Steve Jobs go back to that classic um Steve Jobs video like that the Apple ad about the video like that the Apple ad about the video like that the Apple ad about the crazy ones, you know, and crazy ones, you know, and crazy ones, you know, and >> it's just true like like there's a bit >> it's just true like like there's a bit >> it's just true like like there's a bit of self delusion that may be required to of self delusion that may be required to of self delusion that may be required to attack the hill, you know. attack the hill, you know. attack the hill, you know. >> Yeah. that that if you don't have it, >> Yeah. that that if you don't have it, >> Yeah. that that if you don't have it, you know, I think the vast majority of you know, I think the vast majority of you know, I think the vast majority of people would never attack the hill people would never attack the hill people would never attack the hill because it's too daunting and everything because it's too daunting and everything because it's too daunting and everything looks impossible and and there's a looks impossible and and there's a looks impossible and and there's a certain amount of naive certain amount of naive certain amount of naive that and and by the way, this is one of that and and by the way, this is one of that and and by the way, this is one of the reasons I think that many founders the reasons I think that many founders the reasons I think that many founders are under 25 like even of the ones that are under 25 like even of the ones that are under 25 like even of the ones that create the biggest companies in Silicon create the biggest companies in Silicon create the biggest companies in Silicon Valley. um they don't know what they Valley. um they don't know what they Valley. um they don't know what they don't know and that can be helpful and don't know and that can be helpful and don't know and that can be helpful and and look we are talking about the ones and look we are talking about the ones and look we are talking about the ones that make it you know for every one of that make it you know for every one of that make it you know for every one of those there might be nine that fail and those there might be nine that fail and those there might be nine that fail and or more and so you know the the problem or more and so you know the the problem or more and so you know the the problem is there's no function that says find is there's no function that says find is there's no function that says find the crazy ones and give them money like

the crazy ones and give them money like the crazy ones and give them money like that that that won't work either so that that that won't work either so that that that won't work either so [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] it but but but but I can't I can't tell it but but but but I can't I can't tell it but but but but I can't I can't tell you how many times our partners and I you how many times our partners and I you how many times our partners and I discussed discussed discussed this particular thing which is like you this particular thing which is like you this particular thing which is like you have to you got to you got to try and have to you got to you got to try and have to you got to you got to try and make yourself comfortable with the ones make yourself comfortable with the ones make yourself comfortable with the ones that are that are a little bit out there that are that are a little bit out there that are that are a little bit out there because they are the ones that are going because they are the ones that are going because they are the ones that are going to try new things. They are the ones to try new things. They are the ones to try new things. They are the ones that are going to never give up. Um and that are going to never give up. Um and that are going to never give up. Um and u and and the the surface area is always u and and the the surface area is always u and and the the surface area is always moving. So that type of innovation um if moving. So that type of innovation um if moving. So that type of innovation um if it hits right you know could lead to it hits right you know could lead to it hits right you know could lead to success. success. success. >> Yeah. You know, I think back in in the >> Yeah. You know, I think back in in the >> Yeah. You know, I think back in in the early days of my ministry, which is early days of my ministry, which is early days of my ministry, which is three decades ago, I was 30 when I three decades ago, I was 30 when I three decades ago, I was 30 when I started, not 25. But it was three dying started, not 25. But it was three dying started, not 25. But it was three dying congregations and we started to grow. congregations and we started to grow. congregations and we started to grow. And then I'm like, well, let's just And then I'm like, well, let's just And then I'm like, well, let's just amalgamate them. They're only 5 minutes amalgamate them. They're only 5 minutes amalgamate them. They're only 5 minutes apart. Wasn't true a 100 years ago when apart. Wasn't true a 100 years ago when apart. Wasn't true a 100 years ago when there was only horse and buggy, but we there was only horse and buggy, but we there was only horse and buggy, but we can do this. And like everyone looked at can do this. And like everyone looked at can do this. And like everyone looked at me like I was crazy, but there was me like I was crazy, but there was me like I was crazy, but there was something inside me that's like, nah, something inside me that's like, nah, something inside me that's like, nah, this is going to work. This is going to this is going to work. This is going to this is going to work. This is going to work. This is going to work. I look back work. This is going to work. I look back work. This is going to work. I look back on that now. It did work, by the way, by on that now. It did work, by the way, by on that now. It did work, by the way, by the grace of God.

the grace of God. the grace of God. >> Congrats. I look back on that now and >> Congrats. I look back on that now and >> Congrats. I look back on that now and I'm like what was I thinking because the I'm like what was I thinking because the I'm like what was I thinking because the the people who try that it never works the people who try that it never works the people who try that it never works but there is that kind of youthful but there is that kind of youthful but there is that kind of youthful optimism optimism optimism that that makes makes a big difference I that that makes makes a big difference I that that makes makes a big difference I think that maybe you know me at this think that maybe you know me at this think that maybe you know me at this stage would be like well I don't know I stage would be like well I don't know I stage would be like well I don't know I mean I I read the data on that mean I I read the data on that mean I I read the data on that I think comment on that I think comment on that I think comment on that >> I think navigating life is a lot about >> I think navigating life is a lot about >> I think navigating life is a lot about building mental models in your brain and building mental models in your brain and building mental models in your brain and you know that become rules on how you you know that become rules on how you you know that become rules on how you navigate the world and a young person is navigate the world and a young person is navigate the world and a young person is building up their their, building up their their, building up their their, you know, their tool toolkit full of you know, their tool toolkit full of you know, their tool toolkit full of these mental models. Um, I think when these mental models. Um, I think when these mental models. Um, I think when you get older, you have so many of them you get older, you have so many of them you get older, you have so many of them in there that it becomes somewhat rigid in there that it becomes somewhat rigid in there that it becomes somewhat rigid and it's very easy to get to a no on and it's very easy to get to a no on and it's very easy to get to a no on almost anything and like you just become almost anything and like you just become almost anything and like you just become conservative through the process. And conservative through the process. And conservative through the process. And so, yeah, like I said, you know, the the so, yeah, like I said, you know, the the so, yeah, like I said, you know, the the the younger person is going to take more the younger person is going to take more the younger person is going to take more risk and there's going to be a higher risk and there's going to be a higher risk and there's going to be a higher failure rate.

failure rate. failure rate. >> Um, but some of them are going to it's >> Um, but some of them are going to it's >> Um, but some of them are going to it's going to pop and it's going to work and going to pop and it's going to work and going to pop and it's going to work and that's how it goes. that's how it goes. that's how it goes. >> Did you find and and I'm not asking this >> Did you find and and I'm not asking this >> Did you find and and I'm not asking this in a critical way at all. I'm just out in a critical way at all. I'm just out in a critical way at all. I'm just out of curiosity. of curiosity. of curiosity. Did you find as you got um more seasoned Did you find as you got um more seasoned Did you find as you got um more seasoned in venture capital, you know, 20 years in venture capital, you know, 20 years in venture capital, you know, 20 years in, that your mental models started to in, that your mental models started to in, that your mental models started to interfere with your ability to pick a interfere with your ability to pick a interfere with your ability to pick a winner or take more risk or how did that winner or take more risk or how did that winner or take more risk or how did that how did that work for you? how did that work for you? how did that work for you? >> Yeah, I think it does. our our >> Yeah, I think it does. our our >> Yeah, I think it does. our our particular firm benchmark has a very particular firm benchmark has a very particular firm benchmark has a very unique structure which is a equal unique structure which is a equal unique structure which is a equal partnership structure and partnership structure and partnership structure and >> right >> right >> right >> one of the things that we've done from >> one of the things that we've done from >> one of the things that we've done from the history of the firm is routinely the history of the firm is routinely the history of the firm is routinely bring in the next partner and I think bring in the next partner and I think bring in the next partner and I think last time we ran the data the average last time we ran the data the average last time we ran the data the average age of that incremental partner is 29 age of that incremental partner is 29 age of that incremental partner is 29 and so we're we are intentionally and so we're we are intentionally and so we're we are intentionally injecting someone younger into the injecting someone younger into the injecting someone younger into the partnership to be part of the voting partnership to be part of the voting partnership to be part of the voting process. You know, the day they show up, process. You know, the day they show up, process. You know, the day they show up, they get an equal vote on new deals. And they get an equal vote on new deals. And they get an equal vote on new deals. And I think it's I think it's precisely I think it's I think it's precisely I think it's I think it's precisely because we're concerned about what you because we're concerned about what you because we're concerned about what you just said. And so, you want to and and just said. And so, you want to and and just said. And so, you want to and and and in venture it really matters because and in venture it really matters because and in venture it really matters because the edge is constantly moving. So, you the edge is constantly moving. So, you the edge is constantly moving. So, you know, the you know, things like Tik Tok, know, the you know, things like Tik Tok, know, the you know, things like Tik Tok, Instagram, Twitter, we were we were an Instagram, Twitter, we were we were an Instagram, Twitter, we were we were an investor in Snapchat, Instagram, and investor in Snapchat, Instagram, and investor in Snapchat, Instagram, and Twitter. And you you don't see those Twitter. And you you don't see those Twitter. And you you don't see those things if if you don't you know I things if if you don't you know I things if if you don't you know I remember once when we were looking at remember once when we were looking at remember once when we were looking at Snapchat we talked to one of our kids

Snapchat we talked to one of our kids Snapchat we talked to one of our kids and and and I forget one of the partners child said I forget one of the partners child said I forget one of the partners child said to one of our partners um Instagram to to one of our partners um Instagram to to one of our partners um Instagram to us looks like LinkedIn to you and and us looks like LinkedIn to you and and us looks like LinkedIn to you and and what they were saying is it's all out what they were saying is it's all out what they were saying is it's all out there and in the public and Snapchat had there and in the public and Snapchat had there and in the public and Snapchat had this thing where the messages this thing where the messages this thing where the messages disappeared And that thing landed in our disappeared And that thing landed in our disappeared And that thing landed in our brain in a really interesting way and brain in a really interesting way and brain in a really interesting way and and we funded Snapchat, you know, right and we funded Snapchat, you know, right and we funded Snapchat, you know, right at about that moment. But it kind of at about that moment. But it kind of at about that moment. But it kind of gave us permission in hearing that. But gave us permission in hearing that. But gave us permission in hearing that. But once again, that was a young person's once again, that was a young person's once again, that was a young person's view of where the digital world had view of where the digital world had view of where the digital world had moved. And what is that like a moved. And what is that like a moved. And what is that like a six-month, you know, old like discovery six-month, you know, old like discovery six-month, you know, old like discovery by these young kids, you know, is it's by these young kids, you know, is it's by these young kids, you know, is it's right it's right on the edge. And so, right it's right on the edge. And so, right it's right on the edge. And so, yeah, you need that. I mean that mental yeah, you need that. I mean that mental yeah, you need that. I mean that mental model has to be super fresh. model has to be super fresh. model has to be super fresh. >> So if I got this right, you you >> So if I got this right, you you >> So if I got this right, you you systematically like systemically systematically like systemically systematically like systemically challenged your mental models by making challenged your mental models by making challenged your mental models by making sure that you had young investors at the sure that you had young investors at the sure that you had young investors at the table, young people people speaking into table, young people people speaking into table, young people people speaking into it with not just a voice but a vote like it with not just a voice but a vote like it with not just a voice but a vote like they were they were making decisions they were they were making decisions they were they were making decisions with you. And I the other thing I would with you. And I the other thing I would with you. And I the other thing I would say is is venture is this kind of world say is is venture is this kind of world say is is venture is this kind of world where you know you're for the next deal where you know you're for the next deal where you know you're for the next deal you're your mental model some of it's you're your mental model some of it's you're your mental model some of it's going to go off and say yes and some of going to go off and say yes and some of going to go off and say yes and some of it's going to say no and you have to it's going to say no and you have to it's going to say no and you have to learn that you're going to on somewhere learn that you're going to on somewhere learn that you're going to on somewhere along the way you're going to ignore an along the way you're going to ignore an along the way you're going to ignore an old rule and let it go. Um like I I

old rule and let it go. Um like I I old rule and let it go. Um like I I learned this really the hard way. My my learned this really the hard way. My my learned this really the hard way. My my my um worst story as a venture capital my um worst story as a venture capital my um worst story as a venture capital is I had Larry and Sergey of Google is I had Larry and Sergey of Google is I had Larry and Sergey of Google present to our partnership when there present to our partnership when there present to our partnership when there were 25 employees. were 25 employees. were 25 employees. >> So at the very beginning and we failed >> So at the very beginning and we failed >> So at the very beginning and we failed to lay chase. So they presented left and to lay chase. So they presented left and to lay chase. So they presented left and we didn't try and close that deal. And we didn't try and close that deal. And we didn't try and close that deal. And two of the best venture capitalist in two of the best venture capitalist in two of the best venture capitalist in the world John Door and Mike Moritz the world John Door and Mike Moritz the world John Door and Mike Moritz ended up doing that deal. And I can ended up doing that deal. And I can ended up doing that deal. And I can remember at the time there were a couple remember at the time there were a couple remember at the time there were a couple of nos in our mental model. So um Yahoo of nos in our mental model. So um Yahoo of nos in our mental model. So um Yahoo had fallen from 82 to 10 as a public had fallen from 82 to 10 as a public had fallen from 82 to 10 as a public company. Excite was going bankrupt. So company. Excite was going bankrupt. So company. Excite was going bankrupt. So other search companies were doing other search companies were doing other search companies were doing poorly. So that's just in your brain. Um poorly. So that's just in your brain. Um poorly. So that's just in your brain. Um Larry and Sergey were both PhD students Larry and Sergey were both PhD students Larry and Sergey were both PhD students who both wanted to be co-CEOs. who both wanted to be co-CEOs. who both wanted to be co-CEOs. Up until that moment, if you backed PhD Up until that moment, if you backed PhD Up until that moment, if you backed PhD students who want to be co-CEOs, you'd students who want to be co-CEOs, you'd students who want to be co-CEOs, you'd probably fail. Like that was just probably fail. Like that was just probably fail. Like that was just they're not the type of people that they're not the type of people that they're not the type of people that >> work great entrepreneurs. And and so >> work great entrepreneurs. And and so >> work great entrepreneurs. And and so here there there's two just two examples here there there's two just two examples here there there's two just two examples where your your brain's saying and where your your brain's saying and where your your brain's saying and pumping the brakes. Um biggest mistake pumping the brakes. Um biggest mistake pumping the brakes. Um biggest mistake of my career like right there. And so of my career like right there. And so of my career like right there. And so that's a that's a that's a >> passing on Google.

>> passing on Google. >> passing on Google. >> Yeah. Well, I I I always use the word >> Yeah. Well, I I I always use the word >> Yeah. Well, I I I always use the word fail to chase because passing makes it fail to chase because passing makes it fail to chase because passing makes it sound like they were begging me and I sound like they were begging me and I sound like they were begging me and I said no. Um, we we stopped pursuing, you said no. Um, we we stopped pursuing, you said no. Um, we we stopped pursuing, you know, but but it was still the biggest know, but but it was still the biggest know, but but it was still the biggest mistake of my career. Man, [sighs] mistake of my career. Man, [sighs] mistake of my career. Man, [sighs] man, you know what? Anything else on man, you know what? Anything else on man, you know what? Anything else on mental models, change, and young? mental models, change, and young? mental models, change, and young? Because I know you said, "Hey, I don't Because I know you said, "Hey, I don't Because I know you said, "Hey, I don't know a whole lot about church world." know a whole lot about church world." know a whole lot about church world." Which is great. That's why we're having Which is great. That's why we're having Which is great. That's why we're having this conversation. I believe, as I think this conversation. I believe, as I think this conversation. I believe, as I think you do, we learn best from disciplines you do, we learn best from disciplines you do, we learn best from disciplines outside our field, right? That's why I'm outside our field, right? That's why I'm outside our field, right? That's why I'm having you on this podcast. But what having you on this podcast. But what having you on this podcast. But what every church leader needs to do is just every church leader needs to do is just every church leader needs to do is just pause right now, go back and play that pause right now, go back and play that pause right now, go back and play that last 10 minutes on mental models over last 10 minutes on mental models over last 10 minutes on mental models over and over and over again until you make and over and over again until you make and over and over again until you make some changes in your church. I mean, we some changes in your church. I mean, we some changes in your church. I mean, we have an aging out problem in the church have an aging out problem in the church have an aging out problem in the church that you wouldn't believe how bad it is, that you wouldn't believe how bad it is, that you wouldn't believe how bad it is, Bill. The average senior pastor is 58, Bill. The average senior pastor is 58, Bill. The average senior pastor is 58, doesn't have confidence in the next doesn't have confidence in the next doesn't have confidence in the next generation. I mean what you're without generation. I mean what you're without generation. I mean what you're without knowing it, you are speaking right into knowing it, you are speaking right into knowing it, you are speaking right into one of the central problems one of the central problems one of the central problems >> that most leaders are facing right now.

>> that most leaders are facing right now. >> that most leaders are facing right now. >> One thing um when we get into the book, >> One thing um when we get into the book, >> One thing um when we get into the book, I'd like to come back to this and I'd like to come back to this and I'd like to come back to this and because I think the peer because I think the peer because I think the peer >> there's [clears throat] a chapter in the >> there's [clears throat] a chapter in the >> there's [clears throat] a chapter in the book called Embrace Your Peers. And I book called Embrace Your Peers. And I book called Embrace Your Peers. And I think there may be an opportunity for think there may be an opportunity for think there may be an opportunity for the problem you're talking about um the problem you're talking about um the problem you're talking about um right there. Um right there. Um right there. Um >> okay. Well, why don't we dive into the >> okay. Well, why don't we dive into the >> okay. Well, why don't we dive into the book? Like I said, it's In my view, not book? Like I said, it's In my view, not book? Like I said, it's In my view, not that I've read them all, but hands down that I've read them all, but hands down that I've read them all, but hands down the best career advice book I've ever the best career advice book I've ever the best career advice book I've ever read. And particularly, I think it's read. And particularly, I think it's read. And particularly, I think it's helpful for the next generation. I have helpful for the next generation. I have helpful for the next generation. I have kids in their 30s. They're both kids in their 30s. They're both kids in their 30s. They're both gainfully employed right now, but when I gainfully employed right now, but when I gainfully employed right now, but when I think about what their future is going think about what their future is going think about what their future is going to look like in an AI world, Yeah. to look like in an AI world, Yeah. to look like in an AI world, Yeah. >> I think you just have so much good >> I think you just have so much good >> I think you just have so much good advice and and like you, I chased a advice and and like you, I chased a advice and and like you, I chased a number of different careers, not really number of different careers, not really number of different careers, not really knowing what I was doing, you know, knowing what I was doing, you know, knowing what I was doing, you know, calling career, etc., and ended up like calling career, etc., and ended up like calling career, etc., and ended up like reinventing myself three, four, five reinventing myself three, four, five reinventing myself three, four, five times in the course of my life. For for times in the course of my life. For for times in the course of my life. For for a Gen Xer, that was a little bit of an a Gen Xer, that was a little bit of an a Gen Xer, that was a little bit of an outlier, outlier, outlier, >> but it's pretty normative now. >> but it's pretty normative now. >> but it's pretty normative now. >> So, um, I want you to think a little bit >> So, um, I want you to think a little bit >> So, um, I want you to think a little bit about, um, you know, tell us maybe maybe about, um, you know, tell us maybe maybe about, um, you know, tell us maybe maybe we'll just start here because I do want we'll just start here because I do want we'll just start here because I do want to get into the book and normally this to get into the book and normally this to get into the book and normally this is not a book cast, but it's just so is not a book cast, but it's just so is not a book cast, but it's just so good. We we got to talk about that. Um, good. We we got to talk about that. Um, good. We we got to talk about that. Um, >> why did you write the book? Like this is >> why did you write the book? Like this is >> why did you write the book? Like this is another career departure for you, right?

another career departure for you, right? another career departure for you, right? you're you're wrapping up VC and moving you're you're wrapping up VC and moving you're you're wrapping up VC and moving into this field. into this field. into this field. >> Yeah. So, and and look, I I think I'm >> Yeah. So, and and look, I I think I'm >> Yeah. So, and and look, I I think I'm going to go do something different after going to go do something different after going to go do something different after this. So, it's the book may be a a this. So, it's the book may be a a this. So, it's the book may be a a one-time shot, but um I I was a blogger one-time shot, but um I I was a blogger one-time shot, but um I I was a blogger for even before it was called blogging. for even before it was called blogging. for even before it was called blogging. I had a a fax newsletter when I was on I had a a fax newsletter when I was on I had a a fax newsletter when I was on Wall Street that and it became a part of Wall Street that and it became a part of Wall Street that and it became a part of my career. and my career. and my career. and um in writing these pieces that would be um in writing these pieces that would be um in writing these pieces that would be read in the industry, you know, first of read in the industry, you know, first of read in the industry, you know, first of all, that was one way that I got all, that was one way that I got all, that was one way that I got distribution. So, I talked earlier about distribution. So, I talked earlier about distribution. So, I talked earlier about startups having advantage distribution startups having advantage distribution startups having advantage distribution techniques. Putting content out there techniques. Putting content out there techniques. Putting content out there created my brand. It created contacts created my brand. It created contacts created my brand. It created contacts and networking. It is a way to promote and networking. It is a way to promote and networking. It is a way to promote yourself. Uh but through doing that for yourself. Uh but through doing that for yourself. Uh but through doing that for years and years and years, I had kind of years and years and years, I had kind of years and years and years, I had kind of built this um framework in my mind where built this um framework in my mind where built this um framework in my mind where if I saw something interesting, I would if I saw something interesting, I would if I saw something interesting, I would jot down some notes and then if I went jot down some notes and then if I went jot down some notes and then if I went back to it, I would add to it. And I back to it, I would add to it. And I back to it, I would add to it. And I always had these working blog posts always had these working blog posts always had these working blog posts that, you know, many of them never made that, you know, many of them never made that, you know, many of them never made made it out, but it was just a way of me made it out, but it was just a way of me made it out, but it was just a way of me to store ideas and notes. And I was to store ideas and notes. And I was to store ideas and notes. And I was finishing a I was at a point in my finishing a I was at a point in my finishing a I was at a point in my career I was reading a bunch of career I was reading a bunch of career I was reading a bunch of biographies and I read this third one biographies and I read this third one biographies and I read this third one and I all of a sudden in my mind saw and I all of a sudden in my mind saw and I all of a sudden in my mind saw these parallels going back to mental these parallels going back to mental these parallels going back to mental models between this biography and two models between this biography and two models between this biography and two others that were in widely different others that were in widely different others that were in widely different fields and I just immediately wrote it fields and I just immediately wrote it fields and I just immediately wrote it down. And I started jotting down notes.

down. And I started jotting down notes. down. And I started jotting down notes. And I was so happy with the way that the And I was so happy with the way that the And I was so happy with the way that the notes laid out that I said to myself, notes laid out that I said to myself, notes laid out that I said to myself, one day I'd love to give this as a one day I'd love to give this as a one day I'd love to give this as a speech maybe to a group of students. And speech maybe to a group of students. And speech maybe to a group of students. And so the opportunity came up where I went so the opportunity came up where I went so the opportunity came up where I went back to the NBA program where I started back to the NBA program where I started back to the NBA program where I started at University of Texas and I gave the at University of Texas and I gave the at University of Texas and I gave the speech that I had always wanted to give speech that I had always wanted to give speech that I had always wanted to give from those notes and they ended up from those notes and they ended up from those notes and they ended up posting it online. A few people noticed, posting it online. A few people noticed, posting it online. A few people noticed, one of which was James Clear, the author one of which was James Clear, the author one of which was James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, who reposted it on his of Atomic Habits, who reposted it on his of Atomic Habits, who reposted it on his website, and people started proddding website, and people started proddding website, and people started proddding me, hey, you should you should make this me, hey, you should you should make this me, hey, you should you should make this a book. Um, a book. Um, a book. Um, I don't think I could have put the time I don't think I could have put the time I don't think I could have put the time into it until I started to retire from into it until I started to retire from into it until I started to retire from venture. you know, the time that I I venture. you know, the time that I I venture. you know, the time that I I really wanted to if I was going to do a really wanted to if I was going to do a really wanted to if I was going to do a book, um, I wanted to put in the the book, um, I wanted to put in the the book, um, I wanted to put in the the the, you know, I just wanted to be the the, you know, I just wanted to be the the, you know, I just wanted to be the best it could possibly be. Like, if I'm best it could possibly be. Like, if I'm best it could possibly be. Like, if I'm going to do it, because I've never done going to do it, because I've never done going to do it, because I've never done a book before. And most people expected a book before. And most people expected a book before. And most people expected me to do a book on venture or tech or or me to do a book on venture or tech or or me to do a book on venture or tech or or investing because that's what I what investing because that's what I what investing because that's what I what I've done my whole life. But somewhere I've done my whole life. But somewhere I've done my whole life. But somewhere between between between um deciding, okay, I'm finally going to um deciding, okay, I'm finally going to um deciding, okay, I'm finally going to do this thing. I'm going to do this book do this thing. I'm going to do this book do this thing. I'm going to do this book people have been pushing me to do. I people have been pushing me to do. I people have been pushing me to do. I became super excited about doing this became super excited about doing this became super excited about doing this book versus one of those others. In book versus one of those others. In book versus one of those others. In fact, I I almost had a negative emotion fact, I I almost had a negative emotion fact, I I almost had a negative emotion to going and doing a book on VC. There's

to going and doing a book on VC. There's to going and doing a book on VC. There's several books on VC. How like but but several books on VC. How like but but several books on VC. How like but but but the the bigger issue is those books but the the bigger issue is those books but the the bigger issue is those books if I had done them, they're going to the if I had done them, they're going to the if I had done them, they're going to the their impact is going to be limited to their impact is going to be limited to their impact is going to be limited to some people in that field or whatever. some people in that field or whatever. some people in that field or whatever. This book has the opportunity, I hope, This book has the opportunity, I hope, This book has the opportunity, I hope, to have a much broader impact and touch to have a much broader impact and touch to have a much broader impact and touch a lot more people. Um, I was also a lot more people. Um, I was also a lot more people. Um, I was also motivated by this book. I don't know if motivated by this book. I don't know if motivated by this book. I don't know if you've read it from Strength to Strength you've read it from Strength to Strength you've read it from Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks. by Arthur Brooks. by Arthur Brooks. >> Oh, love it. We've had Arthur on a >> Oh, love it. We've had Arthur on a >> Oh, love it. We've had Arthur on a couple times. couple times. couple times. >> And he he wrote this book literally >> And he he wrote this book literally >> And he he wrote this book literally about I'm 59. I think the book is about I'm 59. I think the book is about I'm 59. I think the book is written for people that are in their written for people that are in their written for people that are in their late 50s that are finishing a career and late 50s that are finishing a career and late 50s that are finishing a career and saying, "What do you what do you want to saying, "What do you what do you want to saying, "What do you what do you want to do with the rest of your time on this do with the rest of your time on this do with the rest of your time on this planet?" And it really spoke to me. That planet?" And it really spoke to me. That planet?" And it really spoke to me. That book really spoke to me and was a real book really spoke to me and was a real book really spoke to me and was a real push in the back to to do this book like push in the back to to do this book like push in the back to to do this book like like and and Arthur talks a lot about um like and and Arthur talks a lot about um like and and Arthur talks a lot about um at this point in your life like giving at this point in your life like giving at this point in your life like giving back and and helping others is going to back and and helping others is going to back and and helping others is going to be way more rewarding than anything else be way more rewarding than anything else be way more rewarding than anything else that you could possibly do. And so it that you could possibly do. And so it that you could possibly do. And so it really it really spoke to me. It was a really it really spoke to me. It was a really it really spoke to me. It was a big part of why. And so that's how I big part of why. And so that's how I big part of why. And so that's how I ended up in this place and with this ended up in this place and with this ended up in this place and with this book is through that process.

book is through that process. book is through that process. Well, it's uh it's really interesting Well, it's uh it's really interesting Well, it's uh it's really interesting and a bit counterintuitive. I mean, a and a bit counterintuitive. I mean, a and a bit counterintuitive. I mean, a lot of it resonates, but one of the lot of it resonates, but one of the lot of it resonates, but one of the premises that you attack, sort of the premises that you attack, sort of the premises that you attack, sort of the big premise that you attack in the book big premise that you attack in the book big premise that you attack in the book is you reject the idea that passion is you reject the idea that passion is you reject the idea that passion should drive us. I mean, you know, it's should drive us. I mean, you know, it's should drive us. I mean, you know, it's that that old adage, you know, if you that that old adage, you know, if you that that old adage, you know, if you really love what you do, you'll never really love what you do, you'll never really love what you do, you'll never work another day in your life. You know, work another day in your life. You know, work another day in your life. You know, chase your passion, that kind of thing. chase your passion, that kind of thing. chase your passion, that kind of thing. What what do you recommend instead and What what do you recommend instead and What what do you recommend instead and and why? and why? and why? >> Yeah. So, so I um the reason I wrote >> Yeah. So, so I um the reason I wrote >> Yeah. So, so I um the reason I wrote that that way is I think the word that that way is I think the word that that way is I think the word passion's become clichéish and a bit passion's become clichéish and a bit passion's become clichéish and a bit overused. And it overused. And it overused. And it because it's been overused, it makes it because it's been overused, it makes it because it's been overused, it makes it quick for people to reject. And I was um quick for people to reject. And I was um quick for people to reject. And I was um I was watching this uh graduation speech I was watching this uh graduation speech I was watching this uh graduation speech that Jerry Seinfeld gave at Duke where that Jerry Seinfeld gave at Duke where that Jerry Seinfeld gave at Duke where he said he he first of all he was very he said he he first of all he was very he said he he first of all he was very dismissive of the word passion but then dismissive of the word passion but then dismissive of the word passion but then he used the word fascination. Um and in he used the word fascination. Um and in he used the word fascination. Um and in the book we we use the phrase chase your the book we we use the phrase chase your the book we we use the phrase chase your curiosity. And um it's it's really curiosity. And um it's it's really curiosity. And um it's it's really trying to get in touch with what is the trying to get in touch with what is the trying to get in touch with what is the thing that you're going to be willing to thing that you're going to be willing to thing that you're going to be willing to learn about constantly. So this is learn about constantly. So this is learn about constantly. So this is continuous learning. Um even if no one continuous learning. Um even if no one continuous learning. Um even if no one made you do it. And earlier when I was made you do it. And earlier when I was made you do it. And earlier when I was telling my own story, I told you I was telling my own story, I told you I was telling my own story, I told you I was learning about stocks when I was not at learning about stocks when I was not at learning about stocks when I was not at work. like and so what what topic is so

work. like and so what what topic is so work. like and so what what topic is so interesting to you that you study it for interesting to you that you study it for interesting to you that you study it for fun and I think it's a high bar and fun and I think it's a high bar and fun and I think it's a high bar and maybe there are some may maybe there's a maybe there are some may maybe there's a maybe there are some may maybe there's a big part of the population that never big part of the population that never big part of the population that never has something like that in which case has something like that in which case has something like that in which case you know this wouldn't apply but but if you know this wouldn't apply but but if you know this wouldn't apply but but if there is something that is so there is something that is so there is something that is so interesting to you that you would study interesting to you that you would study interesting to you that you would study it in your spare time I would encourage it in your spare time I would encourage it in your spare time I would encourage you to consider maybe that's where you you to consider maybe that's where you you to consider maybe that's where you should have your career because you're should have your career because you're should have your career because you're going to spend a third of your life at going to spend a third of your life at going to spend a third of your life at work and if you work and if you work and if you have that dimension where the learning have that dimension where the learning have that dimension where the learning is free, you are going to soar to the is free, you are going to soar to the is free, you are going to soar to the top of your field. Like you're just top of your field. Like you're just top of your field. Like you're just going to outrun everybody. And if the going to outrun everybody. And if the going to outrun everybody. And if the learning is free, I use that phrase to learning is free, I use that phrase to learning is free, I use that phrase to mean it doesn't require it doesn't suck mean it doesn't require it doesn't suck mean it doesn't require it doesn't suck energy from you. it gives you energy energy from you. it gives you energy energy from you. it gives you energy like like if that's the case if learning like like if that's the case if learning like like if that's the case if learning about this particular thing gives you about this particular thing gives you about this particular thing gives you energy you're going to be wildly energy you're going to be wildly energy you're going to be wildly successful I just have zero doubt you successful I just have zero doubt you successful I just have zero doubt you know and so that's the test I think that know and so that's the test I think that know and so that's the test I think that we we go back and forth between the we we go back and forth between the we we go back and forth between the first and and second principle in the first and and second principle in the first and and second principle in the book of saying you know if you love it book of saying you know if you love it book of saying you know if you love it then you need to learn all the time and then you need to learn all the time and then you need to learn all the time and if learning all the time is tedious go if learning all the time is tedious go if learning all the time is tedious go back to go back to square one like back to go back to square one like back to go back to square one like that's the wrong you're in the wrong that's the wrong you're in the wrong that's the wrong you're in the wrong place, you know, place, you know, place, you know, >> you know, it it resonated with me so >> you know, it it resonated with me so >> you know, it it resonated with me so deeply because while I was in ministry, deeply because while I was in ministry, deeply because while I was in ministry, I mean, I read the theology I needed to I mean, I read the theology I needed to I mean, I read the theology I needed to read for 20 years, but it was really the

read for 20 years, but it was really the read for 20 years, but it was really the leadership stuff that I found leadership stuff that I found leadership stuff that I found fascinating, you know, like I'm like, fascinating, you know, like I'm like, fascinating, you know, like I'm like, gosh, I'm reading leadership books. I'm gosh, I'm reading leadership books. I'm gosh, I'm reading leadership books. I'm reading business books. I'm reading reading business books. I'm reading reading business books. I'm reading books by non-Christians. I'm trying to books by non-Christians. I'm trying to books by non-Christians. I'm trying to figure out how that integrates into what figure out how that integrates into what figure out how that integrates into what we're leading inside the church. And lo we're leading inside the church. And lo we're leading inside the church. And lo and behold, for the last decade, guess and behold, for the last decade, guess and behold, for the last decade, guess what I've been doing, Bill? That's what what I've been doing, Bill? That's what what I've been doing, Bill? That's what I've been doing, right? Trying to I've been doing, right? Trying to I've been doing, right? Trying to integrate all of these learnings from integrate all of these learnings from integrate all of these learnings from different fields. We've had James Clear different fields. We've had James Clear different fields. We've had James Clear on the podcast. We've had Arthur Brooks on the podcast. We've had Arthur Brooks on the podcast. We've had Arthur Brooks on the podcast and so many others just on the podcast and so many others just on the podcast and so many others just trying to go like and and trying to go like and and trying to go like and and [clears throat] again, you know, the [clears throat] again, you know, the [clears throat] again, you know, the secret is and I've talked to comedians secret is and I've talked to comedians secret is and I've talked to comedians who would say the same thing. who would say the same thing. who would say the same thing. >> Uh I would do this if I wasn't paid to >> Uh I would do this if I wasn't paid to >> Uh I would do this if I wasn't paid to do it. Like it's just so much fun. do it. Like it's just so much fun. do it. Like it's just so much fun. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> That's the thing that and I've said that >> That's the thing that and I've said that >> That's the thing that and I've said that about my venture job. By the way, you about my venture job. By the way, you about my venture job. By the way, you you started by saying like like why did you started by saying like like why did you started by saying like like why did I write the book? And there there's a I write the book? And there there's a I write the book? And there there's a there's a story I discovered that's also there's a story I discovered that's also there's a story I discovered that's also Jerry Seinfeld. So he's living in New Jerry Seinfeld. So he's living in New Jerry Seinfeld. So he's living in New York. He doesn't really know what he York. He doesn't really know what he York. He doesn't really know what he wants to do with his life. And he reads wants to do with his life. And he reads wants to do with his life. And he reads this book. It's called The Last Laugh. this book. It's called The Last Laugh. this book. It's called The Last Laugh. And it's a profile show And it's a profile show And it's a profile show >> of like 14 comedians. I don't know if >> of like 14 comedians. I don't know if >> of like 14 comedians. I don't know if anyone needs to read it, but for him anyone needs to read it, but for him anyone needs to read it, but for him [snorts] it [snorts] it [snorts] it >> it brought to life that, you know, >> it brought to life that, you know, >> it brought to life that, you know, here's 14 people who make money doing here's 14 people who make money doing here's 14 people who make money doing standup and it's a real job. and and standup and it's a real job. and and standup and it's a real job. and and like this was disinhibiting and [snorts] like this was disinhibiting and [snorts] like this was disinhibiting and [snorts] allowed him to permission to think in allowed him to permission to think in allowed him to permission to think in his brain, oh wait, I could do this for his brain, oh wait, I could do this for his brain, oh wait, I could do this for a living, you know. And what my big hope a living, you know. And what my big hope a living, you know. And what my big hope for the book is that it that it does for the book is that it that it does for the book is that it that it does what this book did for Jerry for a whole

what this book did for Jerry for a whole what this book did for Jerry for a whole bunch of people in a whole bunch of bunch of people in a whole bunch of bunch of people in a whole bunch of fields. Grant them permission to go fields. Grant them permission to go fields. Grant them permission to go chase that thing that um that is so easy chase that thing that um that is so easy chase that thing that um that is so easy for them to learn about just as you for them to learn about just as you for them to learn about just as you described with what you do. Well, if described with what you do. Well, if described with what you do. Well, if you're open to it, do you want to tell you're open to it, do you want to tell you're open to it, do you want to tell the story of Danny Meyer? I mean, he's the story of Danny Meyer? I mean, he's the story of Danny Meyer? I mean, he's someone that I'm I'm I'm fascinated someone that I'm I'm I'm fascinated someone that I'm I'm I'm fascinated with. Will Gera uh has been on the with. Will Gera uh has been on the with. Will Gera uh has been on the podcast a few times. Will studied under podcast a few times. Will studied under podcast a few times. Will studied under Danny. Yeah. Danny. Yeah. Danny. Yeah. >> And it's one of those things that it was >> And it's one of those things that it was >> And it's one of those things that it was just I think it's an opening story in just I think it's an opening story in just I think it's an opening story in the book, but it's just so fascinating the book, but it's just so fascinating the book, but it's just so fascinating to see what he was going to do with his to see what he was going to do with his to see what he was going to do with his life and how he ended up becoming life and how he ended up becoming life and how he ended up becoming >> For your listeners, Danny's one of the >> For your listeners, Danny's one of the >> For your listeners, Danny's one of the top restaurant tours in the world. He's top restaurant tours in the world. He's top restaurant tours in the world. He's built 10 or more very successful uh built 10 or more very successful uh built 10 or more very successful uh restaurants in Manhattan. And he also restaurants in Manhattan. And he also restaurants in Manhattan. And he also created Shake Shack, which he did a created Shake Shack, which he did a created Shake Shack, which he did a little bit later in his life. Um but um little bit later in his life. Um but um little bit later in his life. Um but um yeah, Danny was a salesperson who was yeah, Danny was a salesperson who was yeah, Danny was a salesperson who was doing extremely well in his field. Um he doing extremely well in his field. Um he doing extremely well in his field. Um he was selling I think those devices that was selling I think those devices that was selling I think those devices that they attach to clothes at the retail they attach to clothes at the retail they attach to clothes at the retail stores when you walk out the door.

stores when you walk out the door. stores when you walk out the door. >> You can't steal them. They bleed ink or >> You can't steal them. They bleed ink or >> You can't steal them. They bleed ink or whatever. and he was making something whatever. and he was making something whatever. and he was making something like 200k a year back in like the 80s. like 200k a year back in like the 80s. like 200k a year back in like the 80s. So it was a, you know, a lot of money. So it was a, you know, a lot of money. So it was a, you know, a lot of money. Um, but but he wasn't satisfied. He Um, but but he wasn't satisfied. He Um, but but he wasn't satisfied. He wasn't happy doing it. And so he had wasn't happy doing it. And so he had wasn't happy doing it. And so he had decided he was going to take the LSAT decided he was going to take the LSAT decided he was going to take the LSAT and go to law school. And he's out to and go to law school. And he's out to and go to law school. And he's out to dinner with his uncle the the night dinner with his uncle the the night dinner with his uncle the the night before he's supposed to take the test, before he's supposed to take the test, before he's supposed to take the test, or he did take the test, but the night or he did take the test, but the night or he did take the test, but the night before he takes the test. And his uncle before he takes the test. And his uncle before he takes the test. And his uncle said, "What are you doing?" And Danny's said, "What are you doing?" And Danny's said, "What are you doing?" And Danny's like, "What do you mean? What do you like, "What do you mean? What do you like, "What do you mean? What do you what am I doing? He says, "You know, what am I doing? He says, "You know, what am I doing? He says, "You know, you're supposed to start a restaurant. you're supposed to start a restaurant. you're supposed to start a restaurant. That's all you ever talk about." And That's all you ever talk about." And That's all you ever talk about." And what his uncle And most of us don't have what his uncle And most of us don't have what his uncle And most of us don't have an uncle that's willing to do that, by an uncle that's willing to do that, by an uncle that's willing to do that, by the way. In fact, they'd be afraid that the way. In fact, they'd be afraid that the way. In fact, they'd be afraid that your parents are going to pound him over your parents are going to pound him over your parents are going to pound him over the head, which is part of part of what the head, which is part of part of what the head, which is part of part of what I want to kind of help us break away I want to kind of help us break away I want to kind of help us break away from, is this kind of safe uh shephering from, is this kind of safe uh shephering from, is this kind of safe uh shephering of of young adults. Like I I I think of of young adults. Like I I I think of of young adults. Like I I I think it's it it unfortunately has led to the it's it it unfortunately has led to the it's it it unfortunately has led to the wrong outcome. But anyway, Danny's uncle wrong outcome. But anyway, Danny's uncle wrong outcome. But anyway, Danny's uncle was provocative in a way that really was provocative in a way that really was provocative in a way that really spoke to Danny. And the thing about spoke to Danny. And the thing about spoke to Danny. And the thing about Danny, and we go through this in detail Danny, and we go through this in detail Danny, and we go through this in detail in the book, it all of his spare time in the book, it all of his spare time in the book, it all of his spare time was uh enjoying restaurants and studying was uh enjoying restaurants and studying was uh enjoying restaurants and studying restaurants at a level that's um beyond restaurants at a level that's um beyond restaurants at a level that's um beyond probably any friend that you have. like probably any friend that you have. like probably any friend that you have. like taking notes about decor and different taking notes about decor and different taking notes about decor and different menu presentations, fonts on menus, like menu presentations, fonts on menus, like menu presentations, fonts on menus, like things like that. He was noticing as a

things like that. He was noticing as a things like that. He was noticing as a fan of restaurants, not, you know, as fan of restaurants, not, you know, as fan of restaurants, not, you know, as not as a as an employee in one. And once not as a as an employee in one. And once not as a as an employee in one. And once his uncle said this to him and it just his uncle said this to him and it just his uncle said this to him and it just flipped a bit in his head and he he quit flipped a bit in his head and he he quit flipped a bit in his head and he he quit that job. Luckily, that job had provided that job. Luckily, that job had provided that job. Luckily, that job had provided a lot of compensation. Danny took his a lot of compensation. Danny took his a lot of compensation. Danny took his next job at at less than onetenth the next job at at less than onetenth the next job at at less than onetenth the same of that salary. Um, not not not same of that salary. Um, not not not same of that salary. Um, not not not planning [clears throat] to be in it planning [clears throat] to be in it planning [clears throat] to be in it forever, but knowing he had to start on forever, but knowing he had to start on forever, but knowing he had to start on the bottom rung. And almost every one of the bottom rung. And almost every one of the bottom rung. And almost every one of the stories that we picked for the book the stories that we picked for the book the stories that we picked for the book um um um are are our are we find people that had are are our are we find people that had are are our are we find people that had initial intent and started on the bottom initial intent and started on the bottom initial intent and started on the bottom rung. That was a big part of it for us rung. That was a big part of it for us rung. That was a big part of it for us cuz cuz I'm I want other people to cuz cuz I'm I want other people to cuz cuz I'm I want other people to understand that it's possible to to for understand that it's possible to to for understand that it's possible to to for those two things to be true. I'm I've those two things to be true. I'm I've those two things to be true. I'm I've decided I'm going to go do this new decided I'm going to go do this new decided I'm going to go do this new career and I've never done it before and career and I've never done it before and career and I've never done it before and I'm going to start at the very bottom I'm going to start at the very bottom I'm going to start at the very bottom and you and you and you >> and it pays nothing. So anybody in >> and it pays nothing. So anybody in >> and it pays nothing. So anybody in ministry would be very familiar with ministry would be very familiar with ministry would be very familiar with that. [laughter] that. [laughter] that. [laughter] So, so he but but he took it to learn So, so he but but he took it to learn So, so he but but he took it to learn and then he took it to another level and then he took it to another level and then he took it to another level where after he absorbed everything he where after he absorbed everything he where after he absorbed everything he could there and by the way I think he could there and by the way I think he could there and by the way I think he took two different low-level courses at took two different low-level courses at took two different low-level courses at you know whatever trade school like one you know whatever trade school like one you know whatever trade school like one on running a restaurant one on wine um on running a restaurant one on wine um on running a restaurant one on wine um and then he launched himself through a and then he launched himself through a and then he launched himself through a bunch of connections his family had bunch of connections his family had bunch of connections his family had through Europe as as there's a there's a

through Europe as as there's a there's a through Europe as as there's a there's a term in the industry called a stage term in the industry called a stage term in the industry called a stage which basically means working for free which basically means working for free which basically means working for free and he rotated through a whole bunch of and he rotated through a whole bunch of and he rotated through a whole bunch of restaurants in Europe working for free. restaurants in Europe working for free. restaurants in Europe working for free. Um, taking copious notes, just crazy Um, taking copious notes, just crazy Um, taking copious notes, just crazy amounts of notes. Um, and then came back amounts of notes. Um, and then came back amounts of notes. Um, and then came back to America and and eventually launched to America and and eventually launched to America and and eventually launched Union Square Cafe, which is been a Union Square Cafe, which is been a Union Square Cafe, which is been a longunning, you know, top restaurant in longunning, you know, top restaurant in longunning, you know, top restaurant in New York. In fact, we're doing the book New York. In fact, we're doing the book New York. In fact, we're doing the book launch there on uh on February 23rd. launch there on uh on February 23rd. launch there on uh on February 23rd. Really? [clears throat] My wife and I, Really? [clears throat] My wife and I, Really? [clears throat] My wife and I, we went there last year having done a we went there last year having done a we went there last year having done a bit of research into Danny Meyer. bit of research into Danny Meyer. bit of research into Danny Meyer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and and had lunch at some of his >> Uh and and had lunch at some of his >> Uh and and had lunch at some of his restaurants and one of them was Union restaurants and one of them was Union restaurants and one of them was Union Square Cafe. Like just just absolutely Square Cafe. Like just just absolutely Square Cafe. Like just just absolutely fascinating story. But that's that whole fascinating story. But that's that whole fascinating story. But that's that whole thing of downward mobility, right? I thing of downward mobility, right? I thing of downward mobility, right? I left success which was not satisfying. left success which was not satisfying. left success which was not satisfying. Studied something. And this is a guy, as Studied something. And this is a guy, as Studied something. And this is a guy, as you say, you know, who's walking into you say, you know, who's walking into you say, you know, who's walking into restaurants and noticing things nobody, restaurants and noticing things nobody, restaurants and noticing things nobody, perhaps not even the restaurant tour perhaps not even the restaurant tour perhaps not even the restaurant tour would would have noticed, but he's just would would have noticed, but he's just would would have noticed, but he's just interested in the art and craft of interested in the art and craft of interested in the art and craft of cooking, owning restaurants, etc., and cooking, owning restaurants, etc., and cooking, owning restaurants, etc., and uses up his life savings, and now he's a uses up his life savings, and now he's a uses up his life savings, and now he's a household name in the industry.

household name in the industry. household name in the industry. >> By the way, I think that's a such a >> By the way, I think that's a such a >> By the way, I think that's a such a great word, Carrie. Craft. Like if you great word, Carrie. Craft. Like if you great word, Carrie. Craft. Like if you think of think of think of >> like I I suspect there are um fields and >> like I I suspect there are um fields and >> like I I suspect there are um fields and industries and careers where you look at industries and careers where you look at industries and careers where you look at someone and you say, "Oh, that guy's an someone and you say, "Oh, that guy's an someone and you say, "Oh, that guy's an engineer. That guy's an accountant." But engineer. That guy's an accountant." But engineer. That guy's an accountant." But you don't consider what they're doing a you don't consider what they're doing a you don't consider what they're doing a craft. But I guarantee you, whoever is craft. But I guarantee you, whoever is craft. But I guarantee you, whoever is best at it, you know, in that field, best at it, you know, in that field, best at it, you know, in that field, they approach it that way. Like they they approach it that way. Like they they approach it that way. Like they think of it that way. And I I think it's think of it that way. And I I think it's think of it that way. And I I think it's a it's another great test of whether a it's another great test of whether a it's another great test of whether this is something that really is your this is something that really is your this is something that really is your dream job and and what you should be dream job and and what you should be dream job and and what you should be doing with your life is if you think of doing with your life is if you think of doing with your life is if you think of it as a craft like you know it's almost it as a craft like you know it's almost it as a craft like you know it's almost as an artisan like I I need to figure as an artisan like I I need to figure as an artisan like I I need to figure out how to be the best I can possibly be out how to be the best I can possibly be out how to be the best I can possibly be at this thing I'm going to go do. And at this thing I'm going to go do. And at this thing I'm going to go do. And and the other the other thing I think and the other the other thing I think and the other the other thing I think the word craft elicits is a bit of the word craft elicits is a bit of the word craft elicits is a bit of respect. like respect for the art like respect. like respect for the art like respect. like respect for the art like you know and one one of the things that you know and one one of the things that you know and one one of the things that I harp on I harp on I harp on >> um is you should really study the >> um is you should really study the >> um is you should really study the history of whatever it is you're going history of whatever it is you're going history of whatever it is you're going to go do and and one of the reasons that to go do and and one of the reasons that to go do and and one of the reasons that that means so much to me is I one I that means so much to me is I one I that means so much to me is I one I think it's a test like if if if studying think it's a test like if if if studying think it's a test like if if if studying the history of the field is wrote and the history of the field is wrote and the history of the field is wrote and boring to you then I don't know if you boring to you then I don't know if you boring to you then I don't know if you appreciate the craft enough really um appreciate the craft enough really um appreciate the craft enough really um but two It just it it it gives you such

but two It just it it it gives you such but two It just it it it gives you such great walkound credentials to have the great walkound credentials to have the great walkound credentials to have the knowledge of the elders in your brain knowledge of the elders in your brain knowledge of the elders in your brain and both from a the content's valuable and both from a the content's valuable and both from a the content's valuable to have like it's really good to know to have like it's really good to know to have like it's really good to know the bedrock but also when you interact the bedrock but also when you interact the bedrock but also when you interact with other people and they realize that with other people and they realize that with other people and they realize that you have that knowledge it's very you have that knowledge it's very you have that knowledge it's very differentiating as to who you are you differentiating as to who you are you differentiating as to who you are you know know know >> exactly that you have the potential to >> exactly that you have the potential to >> exactly that you have the potential to be a master at at what you do be a master at at what you do be a master at at what you do >> you know you're >> you know you're >> you know you're We have a great little scene in the book We have a great little scene in the book We have a great little scene in the book I'll hit on real quick where they're I'll hit on real quick where they're I'll hit on real quick where they're having a world chess tournament and they having a world chess tournament and they having a world chess tournament and they take a break and do a history trivia take a break and do a history trivia take a break and do a history trivia quiz and Magnus Carlson wins the trivia quiz and Magnus Carlson wins the trivia quiz and Magnus Carlson wins the trivia contest. contest. contest. >> Uh who's the the best chess player of >> Uh who's the the best chess player of >> Uh who's the the best chess player of all time and just the fact that that he all time and just the fact that that he all time and just the fact that that he won that is not surprising to me. won that is not surprising to me. won that is not surprising to me. >> He mastered the craft. Yeah. You know, >> He mastered the craft. Yeah. You know, >> He mastered the craft. Yeah. You know, Bill, I don't know whether you have this Bill, I don't know whether you have this Bill, I don't know whether you have this or not, and I don't think this was or not, and I don't think this was or not, and I don't think this was explicitly in the book, but like when explicitly in the book, but like when explicitly in the book, but like when you're describing the craft, I I'm not a you're describing the craft, I I'm not a you're describing the craft, I I'm not a brain scientist, but like when I'm I'm brain scientist, but like when I'm I'm brain scientist, but like when I'm I'm really enjoying this conversation. I had really enjoying this conversation. I had really enjoying this conversation. I had high hopes for this conversation, you're high hopes for this conversation, you're high hopes for this conversation, you're telling me things I wasn't expecting. I telling me things I wasn't expecting. I telling me things I wasn't expecting. I feel like when I have a conversation feel like when I have a conversation feel like when I have a conversation like this, and and you know, I I want to like this, and and you know, I I want to like this, and and you know, I I want to get better and better at the art of get better and better at the art of get better and better at the art of interviewing. I really do. But when interviewing. I really do. But when interviewing. I really do. But when you're when when an interview is going you're when when an interview is going you're when when an interview is going well, there are moments where it feels well, there are moments where it feels well, there are moments where it feels like all the dopamine receptors in my like all the dopamine receptors in my like all the dopamine receptors in my brain light up. I just got off uh the brain light up. I just got off uh the brain light up. I just got off uh the third draft of my new book, which comes third draft of my new book, which comes third draft of my new book, which comes out later this year. You've been through out later this year. You've been through out later this year. You've been through bookw writing. And I mean, bookw writing

bookw writing. And I mean, bookw writing bookw writing. And I mean, bookw writing is hard, is hard, is hard, >> but like it reaches a point at which it >> but like it reaches a point at which it >> but like it reaches a point at which it almost almost almost it's not writing itself, but it's like I it's not writing itself, but it's like I it's not writing itself, but it's like I don't know how to describe it. It's just don't know how to describe it. It's just don't know how to describe it. It's just like you're in that flow state. You're like you're in that flow state. You're like you're in that flow state. You're in that in that in that >> word. You're in that flow state and >> word. You're in that flow state and >> word. You're in that flow state and you're just doing whatever whatever you're just doing whatever whatever you're just doing whatever whatever athletes do and you also have an athletes do and you also have an athletes do and you also have an athletic background. athletic background. athletic background. >> I have in writing, I have in podcasting, >> I have in writing, I have in podcasting, >> I have in writing, I have in podcasting, I have in this work. Is that some kind I have in this work. Is that some kind I have in this work. Is that some kind of clue for young leaders listening? of clue for young leaders listening? of clue for young leaders listening? It's like when do you get in flow state? It's like when do you get in flow state? It's like when do you get in flow state? When are you like you lose track of When are you like you lose track of When are you like you lose track of time? It's like how how's three hours time? It's like how how's three hours time? It's like how how's three hours gone by? I was studying restaurants. I gone by? I was studying restaurants. I gone by? I was studying restaurants. I was reading the history of I was doing was reading the history of I was doing was reading the history of I was doing this. this. this. >> Yeah. I mean I I mean obviously there's >> Yeah. I mean I I mean obviously there's >> Yeah. I mean I I mean obviously there's a book titled flow and there's other a book titled flow and there's other a book titled flow and there's other people that have worked you know on that people that have worked you know on that people that have worked you know on that particular idea um quite a bit but yes I particular idea um quite a bit but yes I particular idea um quite a bit but yes I think that when you are doing the thing think that when you are doing the thing think that when you are doing the thing that you love you enter the flow state that you love you enter the flow state that you love you enter the flow state quite frequently and when I say learning quite frequently and when I say learning quite frequently and when I say learning for free I think that's synonymous with for free I think that's synonymous with for free I think that's synonymous with what you're talking about because it it what you're talking about because it it what you're talking about because it it doesn't seem like drudgery you lose doesn't seem like drudgery you lose doesn't seem like drudgery you lose track of time you are you are it's it is track of time you are you are it's it is track of time you are you are it's it is giving you dope I mean just to learn giving you dope I mean just to learn giving you dope I mean just to learn about the field or to think about the about the field or to think about the about the field or to think about the field or to study the field and if field or to study the field and if field or to study the field and if you're fortunate enough to find that you're fortunate enough to find that you're fortunate enough to find that place um I think you become like a you place um I think you become like a you place um I think you become like a you become this kind of it's like a become this kind of it's like a become this kind of it's like a superpower you you become this kind of superpower you you become this kind of superpower you you become this kind of this athlete in that field that would be this athlete in that field that would be this athlete in that field that would be very hard to compete with you know like

very hard to compete with you know like very hard to compete with you know like if you just some people like to give the if you just some people like to give the if you just some people like to give the career some pe I think they're just career some pe I think they're just career some pe I think they're just being provocative But there there's some being provocative But there there's some being provocative But there there's some very famous people that that give this very famous people that that give this very famous people that that give this this pitch. Don't do what you love. Do this pitch. Don't do what you love. Do this pitch. Don't do what you love. Do do what you're really good at. And do what you're really good at. And do what you're really good at. And there's two problems with that. But one there's two problems with that. But one there's two problems with that. But one of them gets to this point. If if I'm in of them gets to this point. If if I'm in of them gets to this point. If if I'm in a field where I'm just good at it and a field where I'm just good at it and a field where I'm just good at it and the human next to me is good at it and the human next to me is good at it and the human next to me is good at it and has this adoration for constant learning has this adoration for constant learning has this adoration for constant learning in the field, they're going to outrun in the field, they're going to outrun in the field, they're going to outrun you. Like they're just going to outrun you. Like they're just going to outrun you. Like they're just going to outrun you. And if they get flow while they're you. And if they get flow while they're you. And if they get flow while they're doing it and you don't, they're gonna doing it and you don't, they're gonna doing it and you don't, they're gonna outrun you. And and so that's the danger outrun you. And and so that's the danger outrun you. And and so that's the danger of that approach, I think. Um Angela of that approach, I think. Um Angela of that approach, I think. Um Angela Duckworth, who who wrote the famous book Duckworth, who who wrote the famous book Duckworth, who who wrote the famous book Grit, did a podcast like 10 years after Grit, did a podcast like 10 years after Grit, did a podcast like 10 years after she wrote it. So she argued in grit you she wrote it. So she argued in grit you she wrote it. So she argued in grit you need perseverance and passion. And um in need perseverance and passion. And um in need perseverance and passion. And um in this podcast, she said, "I probably this podcast, she said, "I probably this podcast, she said, "I probably shouldn't have done it 50/50. I should shouldn't have done it 50/50. I should shouldn't have done it 50/50. I should have put more on passion than have put more on passion than have put more on passion than perseverance." And her belief now is perseverance." And her belief now is perseverance." And her belief now is that we've taught, especially at some in that we've taught, especially at some in that we've taught, especially at some in some, you know, prep schools and some, you know, prep schools and some, you know, prep schools and whatnot, we've taught these young adults whatnot, we've taught these young adults whatnot, we've taught these young adults to grind, like just to grind to grind, like just to grind to grind, like just to grind obsessively.

obsessively. obsessively. And they get good at it. But if they And they get good at it. But if they And they get good at it. But if they don't have this love with the topic that don't have this love with the topic that don't have this love with the topic that they're working on, that eventually they're working on, that eventually they're working on, that eventually becomes burnout. Like they just becomes burnout. Like they just becomes burnout. Like they just eventually wear out. And so, yeah, it's eventually wear out. And so, yeah, it's eventually wear out. And so, yeah, it's if you're getting into flow, you're if you're getting into flow, you're if you're getting into flow, you're getting free energy from doing this getting free energy from doing this getting free energy from doing this thing. And it really it's just an thing. And it really it's just an thing. And it really it's just an unlock. It's like such a powerful unlock. It's like such a powerful unlock. It's like such a powerful unlock. unlock. unlock. >> Danny went out and found some mentors in >> Danny went out and found some mentors in >> Danny went out and found some mentors in Europe, you said, through some family Europe, you said, through some family Europe, you said, through some family connections. That's an FAQ connections. That's an FAQ connections. That's an FAQ >> on um this podcast and in the work I do >> on um this podcast and in the work I do >> on um this podcast and in the work I do with leaders because we have a lot of with leaders because we have a lot of with leaders because we have a lot of young leaders. And it's like, how do I young leaders. And it's like, how do I young leaders. And it's like, how do I find a mentor? How do I [clears throat] find a mentor? How do I [clears throat] find a mentor? How do I [clears throat] find a mentor? you know, if I'm getting find a mentor? you know, if I'm getting find a mentor? you know, if I'm getting into venture capital, how do I get an into venture capital, how do I get an into venture capital, how do I get an hour with Bill Gurley? Like, please hour with Bill Gurley? Like, please hour with Bill Gurley? Like, please explain that to me. What are your explain that to me. What are your explain that to me. What are your thoughts on on finding mentors and how thoughts on on finding mentors and how thoughts on on finding mentors and how does that work? does that work? does that work? >> Yeah, we we have a chapter in the book >> Yeah, we we have a chapter in the book >> Yeah, we we have a chapter in the book on mentors and I I divide it into two on mentors and I I divide it into two on mentors and I I divide it into two halves. And you know, when Danny first halves. And you know, when Danny first halves. And you know, when Danny first sat down and said, "Okay, I'm going to sat down and said, "Okay, I'm going to sat down and said, "Okay, I'm going to go do this." He made a list of what I go do this." He made a list of what I go do this." He made a list of what I call aspirational mentors. So, he didn't call aspirational mentors. So, he didn't call aspirational mentors. So, he didn't beg them like one of them was Wolf Gang beg them like one of them was Wolf Gang beg them like one of them was Wolf Gang Puck. There's a in the in the book I Puck. There's a in the in the book I Puck. There's a in the in the book I think we list all of them but like he think we list all of them but like he think we list all of them but like he there were 10 people that were at the there were 10 people that were at the there were 10 people that were at the top of the restaurant industry. Some of top of the restaurant industry. Some of top of the restaurant industry. Some of them were changing the restaurant them were changing the restaurant them were changing the restaurant industry so it wasn't just the most industry so it wasn't just the most industry so it wasn't just the most historic um but they were 10 that were historic um but they were 10 that were historic um but they were 10 that were important. And he made a little like important. And he made a little like important. And he made a little like poster of them. He studied each of them.

poster of them. He studied each of them. poster of them. He studied each of them. He wrote notes on each of them. And I He wrote notes on each of them. And I He wrote notes on each of them. And I think one thing that that one mistake think one thing that that one mistake think one thing that that one mistake people make about mentors is they people make about mentors is they people make about mentors is they immediately think, "Oh, I'm supposed to immediately think, "Oh, I'm supposed to immediately think, "Oh, I'm supposed to cold call the best and the brightest in cold call the best and the brightest in cold call the best and the brightest in the world." And there's like the world." And there's like the world." And there's like >> we go from being like bottom of the >> we go from being like bottom of the >> we go from being like bottom of the totem pole to Wolf Gang Puck. totem pole to Wolf Gang Puck. totem pole to Wolf Gang Puck. >> You can't do that. And and and I love I >> You can't do that. And and and I love I >> You can't do that. And and and I love I love I love this notion of aspirational love I love this notion of aspirational love I love this notion of aspirational because you can learn from all those because you can learn from all those because you can learn from all those people and you can study them and it'll people and you can study them and it'll people and you can study them and it'll be very helpful to you. And very likely be very helpful to you. And very likely be very helpful to you. And very likely if you if you're winning, you know, if you if you're winning, you know, if you if you're winning, you know, you're going to meet one of them one day you're going to meet one of them one day you're going to meet one of them one day and it's going to be awesome and you're and it's going to be awesome and you're and it's going to be awesome and you're going to know all about them and your going to know all about them and your going to know all about them and your ability to interact with them at that ability to interact with them at that ability to interact with them at that point in time is going to be so point in time is going to be so point in time is going to be so advantaged by the fact that you had advantaged by the fact that you had advantaged by the fact that you had studied them this whole time. But studied them this whole time. But studied them this whole time. But anyway, aspirational mentors are a far anyway, aspirational mentors are a far anyway, aspirational mentors are a far they're people you study in today's they're people you study in today's they're people you study in today's world with podcast and YouTube and AI. world with podcast and YouTube and AI. world with podcast and YouTube and AI. you can study these people like like you can study these people like like you can study these people like like like like like 10 to 100 times easier than it would 10 to 100 times easier than it would 10 to 100 times easier than it would have been 20 years ago. So, it's just have been 20 years ago. So, it's just have been 20 years ago. So, it's just unbelievable access to make that work unbelievable access to make that work unbelievable access to make that work for you. So, that's the first half. The for you. So, that's the first half. The for you. So, that's the first half. The second half for real in-person mentors, second half for real in-person mentors, second half for real in-person mentors, I think just don't don't get greedy.

I think just don't don't get greedy. I think just don't don't get greedy. Like, there are people that are two Like, there are people that are two Like, there are people that are two levels down from the top who no one's levels down from the top who no one's levels down from the top who no one's asking to be a mentor that knows a lot asking to be a mentor that knows a lot asking to be a mentor that knows a lot more than you do if you're on the bottom more than you do if you're on the bottom more than you do if you're on the bottom rung. And so I think it's important to rung. And so I think it's important to rung. And so I think it's important to find people that are going to have the find people that are going to have the find people that are going to have the time to take it seriously that can still time to take it seriously that can still time to take it seriously that can still help you. And and by the way, you can help you. And and by the way, you can help you. And and by the way, you can get multiple mentors on different get multiple mentors on different get multiple mentors on different vectors of whatever it is you're trying vectors of whatever it is you're trying vectors of whatever it is you're trying to learn about. So you don't need this to learn about. So you don't need this to learn about. So you don't need this holistic person where you'd end up holistic person where you'd end up holistic person where you'd end up wasting a bunch of their time. You can wasting a bunch of their time. You can wasting a bunch of their time. You can get someone that's good at X and someone get someone that's good at X and someone get someone that's good at X and someone that's good at Y and someone that's good that's good at Y and someone that's good that's good at Y and someone that's good at Z. Um but but be more realistic as at Z. Um but but be more realistic as at Z. Um but but be more realistic as you start to climb um this ladder from you start to climb um this ladder from you start to climb um this ladder from the bottom rung and and pick someone the bottom rung and and pick someone the bottom rung and and pick someone that's a couple of rungs above you that's a couple of rungs above you that's a couple of rungs above you rather than unfortunately and once again rather than unfortunately and once again rather than unfortunately and once again I think it's well intended most when I think it's well intended most when I think it's well intended most when most people talk about mentors the word most people talk about mentors the word most people talk about mentors the word so heavy it implies this guru that's so heavy it implies this guru that's so heavy it implies this guru that's basically inaccessible so that doesn't basically inaccessible so that doesn't basically inaccessible so that doesn't really work. really work. really work. >> Yeah. if you um were to do and I I could >> Yeah. if you um were to do and I I could >> Yeah. if you um were to do and I I could not agree more with that advice. I mean, not agree more with that advice. I mean, not agree more with that advice. I mean, some of the guests on this podcast have some of the guests on this podcast have some of the guests on this podcast have been aspirational mentors for me, but I been aspirational mentors for me, but I been aspirational mentors for me, but I I didn't start with them 11 years ago.

I didn't start with them 11 years ago. I didn't start with them 11 years ago. You you you build up a reputation, you You you you build up a reputation, you You you you build up a reputation, you build up an audience, you get to know build up an audience, you get to know build up an audience, you get to know people, you get introductions, you cold people, you get introductions, you cold people, you get introductions, you cold call some people. call some people. call some people. >> Uh and sometimes it works and sometimes >> Uh and sometimes it works and sometimes >> Uh and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But I think you you hit you it doesn't. But I think you you hit you it doesn't. But I think you you hit you hit, Bill, on something that's really hit, Bill, on something that's really hit, Bill, on something that's really different now. Um, you can DM an different now. Um, you can DM an different now. Um, you can DM an aspirational mentor. I mean, aspirational mentor. I mean, aspirational mentor. I mean, theoretically, somebody could DM you. theoretically, somebody could DM you. theoretically, somebody could DM you. Um, email addresses, despite all the Um, email addresses, despite all the Um, email addresses, despite all the privacy attempts, are widely available privacy attempts, are widely available privacy attempts, are widely available on the internet. You can take some on the internet. You can take some on the internet. You can take some logical guesses and drop you a cold call logical guesses and drop you a cold call logical guesses and drop you a cold call email. Uh, that what advice do you have email. Uh, that what advice do you have email. Uh, that what advice do you have for young leaders on that? Like, don't for young leaders on that? Like, don't for young leaders on that? Like, don't jump up three levels, but let's say you jump up three levels, but let's say you jump up three levels, but let's say you had a chance to legit, you've done the had a chance to legit, you've done the had a chance to legit, you've done the hard work, you have a chance. I get I hard work, you have a chance. I get I hard work, you have a chance. I get I get I want to be in investing. I get a get I want to be in investing. I get a get I want to be in investing. I get a chance to to pitch Bill Gurley on a chance to to pitch Bill Gurley on a chance to to pitch Bill Gurley on a coffee or whatever. What are some dos coffee or whatever. What are some dos coffee or whatever. What are some dos and don'ts? and don'ts? and don'ts? >> Well, you combine two things there. So, >> Well, you combine two things there. So, >> Well, you combine two things there. So, I would say first on the DM thing, like I would say first on the DM thing, like I would say first on the DM thing, like I' I've put more money or more time, not I' I've put more money or more time, not I' I've put more money or more time, not really money, more investment of my own really money, more investment of my own really money, more investment of my own time into Twitter versus or X versus the time into Twitter versus or X versus the time into Twitter versus or X versus the others. But it is so amazing once your others. But it is so amazing once your others. But it is so amazing once your network starts to grow, the number of network starts to grow, the number of network starts to grow, the number of people you might want to talk to that people you might want to talk to that people you might want to talk to that you see they follow you and now you can you see they follow you and now you can you see they follow you and now you can DM. It's like this unbelievable unlock DM. It's like this unbelievable unlock DM. It's like this unbelievable unlock and um it's really powerful and and this and um it's really powerful and and this and um it's really powerful and and this digital this ability to connect digital this ability to connect digital this ability to connect digitally is another element of speed of

digitally is another element of speed of digitally is another element of speed of learning and mentorship that's available learning and mentorship that's available learning and mentorship that's available today that wasn't available 20 or 25 today that wasn't available 20 or 25 today that wasn't available 20 or 25 years ago. But you have to be in it to years ago. But you have to be in it to years ago. But you have to be in it to do it and you have to understand the do it and you have to understand the do it and you have to understand the edge to to get a benefit from it. But I edge to to get a benefit from it. But I edge to to get a benefit from it. But I think it's unbelievable. There's people think it's unbelievable. There's people think it's unbelievable. There's people sharing the their best information sharing the their best information sharing the their best information possible. They're doing it out in this possible. They're doing it out in this possible. They're doing it out in this public space. And if you happen to say public space. And if you happen to say public space. And if you happen to say something they like or they read something they like or they read something they like or they read something you wrote and like it or something you wrote and like it or something you wrote and like it or follow you, now all of a sudden you've follow you, now all of a sudden you've follow you, now all of a sudden you've opened a communication channel. It's opened a communication channel. It's opened a communication channel. It's crazy. Like so anyway, it's it's I I crazy. Like so anyway, it's it's I I crazy. Like so anyway, it's it's I I think you want to be rolling around in think you want to be rolling around in think you want to be rolling around in these tools. like it is the modern these tools. like it is the modern these tools. like it is the modern toolkit and it's very easy to dismiss toolkit and it's very easy to dismiss toolkit and it's very easy to dismiss whatever comes up next. You know, I I'm whatever comes up next. You know, I I'm whatever comes up next. You know, I I'm guilty of being better at Twitter than I guilty of being better at Twitter than I guilty of being better at Twitter than I am Instagram like because you know I'm am Instagram like because you know I'm am Instagram like because you know I'm older and like that's the one that I got older and like that's the one that I got older and like that's the one that I got to know and and Tik Tok I'm even less to know and and Tik Tok I'm even less to know and and Tik Tok I'm even less like so um it happens but but but anyway like so um it happens but but but anyway like so um it happens but but but anyway I think you need to roll around in it. I think you need to roll around in it. I think you need to roll around in it. Um, [snorts] in terms of uh approaching Um, [snorts] in terms of uh approaching Um, [snorts] in terms of uh approaching someone, um, I think it's really someone, um, I think it's really someone, um, I think it's really valuable to know as much about them as valuable to know as much about them as valuable to know as much about them as possible because it's respectful and possible because it's respectful and possible because it's respectful and that can land in at the right time that that can land in at the right time that that can land in at the right time that can land in a very powerful way. Um, can land in a very powerful way. Um, can land in a very powerful way. Um, two, I think you want to ask for two, I think you want to ask for two, I think you want to ask for something that's very concrete and something that's very concrete and something that's very concrete and finite. Like I don't think you want to finite. Like I don't think you want to finite. Like I don't think you want to ask for, hey, will you, you know, be my ask for, hey, will you, you know, be my ask for, hey, will you, you know, be my mentor for all of eternity? [laughter] mentor for all of eternity? [laughter] mentor for all of eternity? [laughter] Like I I think you on your first

Like I I think you on your first Like I I think you on your first attempt, you should be asking for a very attempt, you should be asking for a very attempt, you should be asking for a very specific piece of advice like a specific piece of advice like a specific piece of advice like a particular problem that you've done or a particular problem that you've done or a particular problem that you've done or a piece of work that you've created that piece of work that you've created that piece of work that you've created that you want them to opine on. But it needs you want them to opine on. But it needs you want them to opine on. But it needs to be something where the ask looks like to be something where the ask looks like to be something where the ask looks like it's a maybe 5 to 10 minute investment it's a maybe 5 to 10 minute investment it's a maybe 5 to 10 minute investment from the other side just for the first from the other side just for the first from the other side just for the first one. like because if you propose one. like because if you propose one. like because if you propose something that's going to look like it's something that's going to look like it's something that's going to look like it's infinite time or unknowable amount of infinite time or unknowable amount of infinite time or unknowable amount of time, it's going to be very hard for time, it's going to be very hard for time, it's going to be very hard for that person to opt in just because they that person to opt in just because they that person to opt in just because they couldn't do it across the number of couldn't do it across the number of couldn't do it across the number of inbounds that they're getting. Um, and inbounds that they're getting. Um, and inbounds that they're getting. Um, and then if the other thing I would say is then if the other thing I would say is then if the other thing I would say is if there's if you happen to be aware of if there's if you happen to be aware of if there's if you happen to be aware of a particular interest or even better a a particular interest or even better a a particular interest or even better a new interest of the mentor, that's an new interest of the mentor, that's an new interest of the mentor, that's an area where you you might be able to area where you you might be able to area where you you might be able to bring something to the table, [snorts] bring something to the table, [snorts] bring something to the table, [snorts] you know. So, I mean, I don't want to you know. So, I mean, I don't want to you know. So, I mean, I don't want to talk too much about social media, but talk too much about social media, but talk too much about social media, but let's say you were really great at Tik let's say you were really great at Tik let's say you were really great at Tik Tok. Um, and Tok. Um, and Tok. Um, and that mentor's not exploiting that that mentor's not exploiting that that mentor's not exploiting that channel, and you had an idea. You you channel, and you had an idea. You you channel, and you had an idea. You you could as part of engaging saying, "By could as part of engaging saying, "By could as part of engaging saying, "By the way, this, you know, two or three of the way, this, you know, two or three of the way, this, you know, two or three of your peers are crushing it on TikTok. I your peers are crushing it on TikTok. I your peers are crushing it on TikTok. I [clears throat] think I know why. I [clears throat] think I know why. I [clears throat] think I know why. I could probably write up an analysis for could probably write up an analysis for could probably write up an analysis for you or maybe I wrote it up. I've you or maybe I wrote it up. I've you or maybe I wrote it up. I've attached it in case you're interested. I attached it in case you're interested. I attached it in case you're interested. I think you might really benefit from think you might really benefit from think you might really benefit from this. Like if there's an opportunity to this. Like if there's an opportunity to this. Like if there's an opportunity to do something like that, now you're do something like that, now you're do something like that, now you're bringing something to the table.

bringing something to the table. bringing something to the table. >> See, in both of those, I love your >> See, in both of those, I love your >> See, in both of those, I love your answer because in both cases, it assumes answer because in both cases, it assumes answer because in both cases, it assumes that you're adding value, not just that you're adding value, not just that you're adding value, not just asking. Like it's true on social media, asking. Like it's true on social media, asking. Like it's true on social media, it's been surprising how many of the it's been surprising how many of the it's been surprising how many of the people I know today that I only admired people I know today that I only admired people I know today that I only admired from afar discovered me because like from afar discovered me because like from afar discovered me because like you, I started blogging um in the early you, I started blogging um in the early you, I started blogging um in the early days of blogging and they would read my days of blogging and they would read my days of blogging and they would read my stuff and go, "This is really good." And stuff and go, "This is really good." And stuff and go, "This is really good." And then occasionally they would reach out. then occasionally they would reach out. then occasionally they would reach out. That's how my best friend who used to That's how my best friend who used to That's how my best friend who used to work at one of the biggest churches in work at one of the biggest churches in work at one of the biggest churches in the country um got to know me 15 years the country um got to know me 15 years the country um got to know me 15 years ago. You know, he discovered me. Some ago. You know, he discovered me. Some ago. You know, he discovered me. Some other people who become very good other people who become very good other people who become very good friends discovered it. But I was adding friends discovered it. But I was adding friends discovered it. But I was adding to the world, not just asking. And I to the world, not just asking. And I to the world, not just asking. And I think that's really important for people think that's really important for people think that's really important for people to hear. Similarly, in the in the the to hear. Similarly, in the in the the to hear. Similarly, in the in the the cold call, what great advice, like cold call, what great advice, like cold call, what great advice, like specific, measurable, short, uh do your specific, measurable, short, uh do your specific, measurable, short, uh do your homework, like you know, hey, I read homework, like you know, hey, I read homework, like you know, hey, I read your book and you cover this and you your book and you cover this and you your book and you cover this and you cover that. cover that. cover that. >> But one question that hit me was blah >> But one question that hit me was blah >> But one question that hit me was blah blah blah. And then just be grateful for blah blah. And then just be grateful for blah blah. And then just be grateful for whatever you get. whatever you get. whatever you get. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Uh and maybe add some value in a new >> Uh and maybe add some value in a new >> Uh and maybe add some value in a new area. Okay, that's super helpful. you area. Okay, that's super helpful. you area. Okay, that's super helpful. you and and and I would be the the and and and I would be the the and and and I would be the the 10,000th person to say this, not the 10,000th person to say this, not the 10,000th person to say this, not the first, but you got to get you got to let first, but you got to get you got to let first, but you got to get you got to let the the the no or the no response just the the the no or the no response just the the the no or the no response just roll off your back. You can't roll off your back. You can't roll off your back. You can't >> you can't let that build up any kind of >> you can't let that build up any kind of >> you can't let that build up any kind of anxiety. Like, it's fine. Maybe they anxiety. Like, it's fine. Maybe they anxiety. Like, it's fine. Maybe they didn't see it, like maybe they didn't didn't see it, like maybe they didn't didn't see it, like maybe they didn't read it. Maybe they're not the type of read it. Maybe they're not the type of read it. Maybe they're not the type of person that likes to give back. It's person that likes to give back. It's person that likes to give back. It's fine. Like, let it go. Like, no big fine. Like, let it go. Like, no big fine. Like, let it go. Like, no big deal. Like, deal. Like, deal. Like, >> yeah. Yeah. Um, the other thing you talk

>> yeah. Yeah. Um, the other thing you talk >> yeah. Yeah. Um, the other thing you talk about is peer-to-peer mentoring. And, about is peer-to-peer mentoring. And, about is peer-to-peer mentoring. And, uh, I'm not a sports guy like you are, uh, I'm not a sports guy like you are, uh, I'm not a sports guy like you are, so I'm sure to our our listeners, they so I'm sure to our our listeners, they so I'm sure to our our listeners, they would get a lot more out of the names would get a lot more out of the names would get a lot more out of the names you drop in that section of the book. you drop in that section of the book. you drop in that section of the book. But you talk about I think it ends up But you talk about I think it ends up But you talk about I think it ends up being seven friends who eventually being seven friends who eventually being seven friends who eventually became college ads for football, I think became college ads for football, I think became college ads for football, I think it was. it was. it was. >> I think that model is perfect >> I think that model is perfect >> I think that model is perfect >> for church leaders, right? >> for church leaders, right? >> for church leaders, right? >> Because everybody knows somebody else, >> Because everybody knows somebody else, >> Because everybody knows somebody else, right? right? right? >> When we talked about it early on, I said >> When we talked about it early on, I said >> When we talked about it early on, I said I wanted to circle back to this. Yes. I wanted to circle back to this. Yes. I wanted to circle back to this. Yes. So, So, So, >> is this it? Yeah, I think I think this >> is this it? Yeah, I think I think this >> is this it? Yeah, I think I think this is the so it's probably the book has six is the so it's probably the book has six is the so it's probably the book has six principles interlaced with a bunch of principles interlaced with a bunch of principles interlaced with a bunch of profiles of of people that once again profiles of of people that once again profiles of of people that once again started on the bottom rung and most of started on the bottom rung and most of started on the bottom rung and most of them became the very top of their field. them became the very top of their field. them became the very top of their field. But um one of the principles probably my But um one of the principles probably my But um one of the principles probably my favorite is titled embrace your peers. favorite is titled embrace your peers. favorite is titled embrace your peers. And I think it's a concept you know And I think it's a concept you know And I think it's a concept you know mentorship is a is a concept that's been mentorship is a is a concept that's been mentorship is a is a concept that's been widely discussed and widely recommended. widely discussed and widely recommended. widely discussed and widely recommended. This one I think is less intuitive, but This one I think is less intuitive, but This one I think is less intuitive, but there are examples of people that that there are examples of people that that there are examples of people that that built peer networks. And and when I say built peer networks. And and when I say built peer networks. And and when I say the word peer, I'm talking about someone the word peer, I'm talking about someone the word peer, I'm talking about someone who is on the exact same journey or who is on the exact same journey or who is on the exact same journey or climb that you're on. Um that's not two climb that you're on. Um that's not two climb that you're on. Um that's not two rungs above. They're on the same ladder rungs above. They're on the same ladder rungs above. They're on the same ladder rung you're on and you're both trying to rung you're on and you're both trying to rung you're on and you're both trying to get to the same place. And the the thing get to the same place. And the the thing get to the same place. And the the thing that's great about if you can find that's great about if you can find that's great about if you can find multiple people like that is you get

multiple people like that is you get multiple people like that is you get shared learning. So it's not just you shared learning. So it's not just you shared learning. So it's not just you that's learning, you're learning what that's learning, you're learning what that's learning, you're learning what they're learning. Now it requires that they're learning. Now it requires that they're learning. Now it requires that you be super comfortable with sharing you be super comfortable with sharing you be super comfortable with sharing what you're learning with them. And the what you're learning with them. And the what you're learning with them. And the one of the reasons why I think this one of the reasons why I think this one of the reasons why I think this particular approach hasn't been particular approach hasn't been particular approach hasn't been recommended as much is a lot of people, recommended as much is a lot of people, recommended as much is a lot of people, especially people that want to be especially people that want to be especially people that want to be successful, are overly competitive and successful, are overly competitive and successful, are overly competitive and they're they're what I would call sharp they're they're what I would call sharp they're they're what I would call sharp elbowed. And the notion of giving your elbowed. And the notion of giving your elbowed. And the notion of giving your best ideas to someone that's climbing in best ideas to someone that's climbing in best ideas to someone that's climbing in the same mountain you are feels the same mountain you are feels the same mountain you are feels anti-intuitive to them and even feels anti-intuitive to them and even feels anti-intuitive to them and even feels like a bad idea. But I don't think like a bad idea. But I don't think like a bad idea. But I don't think there's this great book about finite and there's this great book about finite and there's this great book about finite and infinite games. We build a lot of our infinite games. We build a lot of our infinite games. We build a lot of our mental models from studying finite games mental models from studying finite games mental models from studying finite games like sports events and whatnot or board like sports events and whatnot or board like sports events and whatnot or board games and they there's one winner, they games and they there's one winner, they games and they there's one winner, they end and there's a winner and that's it. end and there's a winner and that's it. end and there's a winner and that's it. But infinite games um which life is But infinite games um which life is But infinite games um which life is there's not just one winner. And most of there's not just one winner. And most of there's not just one winner. And most of these fields there's a large number of these fields there's a large number of these fields there's a large number of winners. And so you got to get this out winners. And so you got to get this out winners. And so you got to get this out of your head that I'm competing with of your head that I'm competing with of your head that I'm competing with every single human that's in this field every single human that's in this field every single human that's in this field because that's a very lonely journey.

because that's a very lonely journey. because that's a very lonely journey. [snorts] And if you can and the the the [snorts] And if you can and the the the [snorts] And if you can and the the the example you mentioned when we started example you mentioned when we started example you mentioned when we started talking about this in the book um we talking about this in the book um we talking about this in the book um we have a chapter about these these seven have a chapter about these these seven have a chapter about these these seven young people who are working at the very young people who are working at the very young people who are working at the very bottom rungs of their athletic bottom rungs of their athletic bottom rungs of their athletic departments. They're all executives in departments. They're all executives in departments. They're all executives in in the athletic administration at in the athletic administration at in the athletic administration at colleges and they meet at a conference colleges and they meet at a conference colleges and they meet at a conference and they start texting each other and and they start texting each other and and they start texting each other and sharing ideas and when they leave the sharing ideas and when they leave the sharing ideas and when they leave the conference they go back to you know each conference they go back to you know each conference they go back to you know each of their respective schools but they now of their respective schools but they now of their respective schools but they now have this text group. So um oddly like have this text group. So um oddly like have this text group. So um oddly like they all end up top number you know they all end up top number you know they all end up top number you know athletic directors at at seven of the athletic directors at at seven of the athletic directors at at seven of the top schools in in the country. Um, and top schools in in the country. Um, and top schools in in the country. Um, and when when we sat down and talked to them when when we sat down and talked to them when when we sat down and talked to them all, like this co-learning thing was a all, like this co-learning thing was a all, like this co-learning thing was a huge part of why they were all so huge part of why they were all so huge part of why they were all so successful. And it got more and more successful. And it got more and more successful. And it got more and more sophisticated each year. And like in the sophisticated each year. And like in the sophisticated each year. And like in the latter years, they [snorts] were doing latter years, they [snorts] were doing latter years, they [snorts] were doing two or three day meetings. They're two or three day meetings. They're two or three day meetings. They're bringing their wives. They're they're bringing their wives. They're they're bringing their wives. They're they're inviting uh special guests to come speak inviting uh special guests to come speak inviting uh special guests to come speak on topics they don't know about. Like, on topics they don't know about. Like, on topics they don't know about. Like, and then they take that away. And it's and then they take that away. And it's and then they take that away. And it's it I say it's odd they were all that it I say it's odd they were all that it I say it's odd they were all that successful when you get in the weeds and successful when you get in the weeds and successful when you get in the weeds and see what was happening and that see what was happening and that see what was happening and that co-learning. It's actually not odd. It's co-learning. It's actually not odd. It's co-learning. It's actually not odd. It's more kind of oh it's it's actually more kind of oh it's it's actually more kind of oh it's it's actually intuitive that's what happened you know intuitive that's what happened you know intuitive that's what happened you know but it's very I don't think it's but it's very I don't think it's but it's very I don't think it's intuitive to go do this. I think most intuitive to go do this. I think most intuitive to go do this. I think most people

people people um um um hey go start sharing with this other hey go start sharing with this other hey go start sharing with this other person that you might be competing with person that you might be competing with person that you might be competing with is not something that's logical to is not something that's logical to is not something that's logical to Yeah. You know, it's almost like they Yeah. You know, it's almost like they Yeah. You know, it's almost like they started an impromptu DIY mastermind, started an impromptu DIY mastermind, started an impromptu DIY mastermind, right? just with that text group and right? just with that text group and right? just with that text group and then annual gatherings and then they then annual gatherings and then they then annual gatherings and then they sort of became three-day events and and sort of became three-day events and and sort of became three-day events and and I think that is such lowhanging fruit I think that is such lowhanging fruit I think that is such lowhanging fruit that most people that most people that most people >> miss and you brought up in the ministry. >> miss and you brought up in the ministry. >> miss and you brought up in the ministry. I mean you unless unless you know your I mean you unless unless you know your I mean you unless unless you know your your your your your your your houses of worship are right next to each houses of worship are right next to each houses of worship are right next to each other, you're not competing really with other, you're not competing really with other, you're not competing really with these other people. We're all on the these other people. We're all on the these other people. We're all on the same team. If you can find we're same team. If you can find we're same team. If you can find we're supposed to be supposed to be supposed to be >> peers in other cities that are on the >> peers in other cities that are on the >> peers in other cities that are on the exact same journey you're on and get exact same journey you're on and get exact same journey you're on and get into this area where you're sharing into this area where you're sharing into this area where you're sharing different things you try. You probably different things you try. You probably different things you try. You probably try something new every, you know, once try something new every, you know, once try something new every, you know, once a week, right? And some of it works, a week, right? And some of it works, a week, right? And some of it works, some of it doesn't. And if that can be some of it doesn't. And if that can be some of it doesn't. And if that can be eight people sharing that eight people sharing that eight people sharing that experimentation, there's another story experimentation, there's another story experimentation, there's another story in the book in that peer chapter that's in the book in that peer chapter that's in the book in that peer chapter that's far away from ministries or or um far away from ministries or or um far away from ministries or or um athletic directors, which is Jimmy athletic directors, which is Jimmy athletic directors, which is Jimmy Donaldson, who is a young 17-year-old Donaldson, who is a young 17-year-old Donaldson, who is a young 17-year-old kid who loves YouTube, like he just kid who loves YouTube, like he just kid who loves YouTube, like he just loves YouTube, flat out loves it, and loves YouTube, flat out loves it, and loves YouTube, flat out loves it, and starts playing around with how to how to starts playing around with how to how to starts playing around with how to how to how to basically be successful on how to basically be successful on how to basically be successful on YouTube. and meets three other people.

YouTube. and meets three other people. YouTube. and meets three other people. They do a daily Skype call for like 16 They do a daily Skype call for like 16 They do a daily Skype call for like 16 hours a day and and Jimmy Donaldson hours a day and and Jimmy Donaldson hours a day and and Jimmy Donaldson becomes Mr. Beast, you know, who is the becomes Mr. Beast, you know, who is the becomes Mr. Beast, you know, who is the most successful YouTuber on the planet. most successful YouTuber on the planet. most successful YouTuber on the planet. And you know, at the time when he And you know, at the time when he And you know, at the time when he started doing that, um, you know, his started doing that, um, you know, his started doing that, um, you know, his mother wanted him to go to college. He mother wanted him to go to college. He mother wanted him to go to college. He was not particularly interested in it. was not particularly interested in it. was not particularly interested in it. He was wildly interested in this. And he He was wildly interested in this. And he He was wildly interested in this. And he says after the fact, referencing the says after the fact, referencing the says after the fact, referencing the Malcolm Gladwell book 10,000 hours, he Malcolm Gladwell book 10,000 hours, he Malcolm Gladwell book 10,000 hours, he said, he says, "The hell with 10,000 said, he says, "The hell with 10,000 said, he says, "The hell with 10,000 hours, we're getting 40,000 hours." hours, we're getting 40,000 hours." hours, we're getting 40,000 hours." Because there were four of us learning Because there were four of us learning Because there were four of us learning at the same time. And and they were at the same time. And and they were at the same time. And and they were learning how to master this new craft of learning how to master this new craft of learning how to master this new craft of of being good at putting videos on of being good at putting videos on of being good at putting videos on YouTube. And he also said if a fifth YouTube. And he also said if a fifth YouTube. And he also said if a fifth person had been on that call, they would person had been on that call, they would person had been on that call, they would have made a million dollars. ASA like have made a million dollars. ASA like have made a million dollars. ASA like like the the the techniques they were like the the the techniques they were like the the the techniques they were uncovering were were so new and and so uncovering were were so new and and so uncovering were were so new and and so powerful that if you mastered them at powerful that if you mastered them at powerful that if you mastered them at that point in time you got immediate that point in time you got immediate that point in time you got immediate financial reward out of it. Um but financial reward out of it. Um but financial reward out of it. Um but >> yeah there was only one Mr. Beast out of >> yeah there was only one Mr. Beast out of >> yeah there was only one Mr. Beast out of that group but everybody else I think it that group but everybody else I think it that group but everybody else I think it said you said they grew their followers said you said they grew their followers said you said they grew their followers to like a million to like a million to like a million >> followers. They all did well >> followers. They all did well >> followers. They all did well financially. It didn't all do as good as financially. It didn't all do as good as financially. It didn't all do as good as him. But but but the point being you him. But but but the point being you him. But but but the point being you know it's very similar to the athletic know it's very similar to the athletic know it's very similar to the athletic director story but this I think in the director story but this I think in the director story but this I think in the ministry this is a huge opportunity like ministry this is a huge opportunity like ministry this is a huge opportunity like if you can especially if you can find if you can especially if you can find if you can especially if you can find people who are doing the who enjoy the people who are doing the who enjoy the people who are doing the who enjoy the same type of of worship and and and same

same type of of worship and and and same same type of of worship and and and same type of congregation that you are and type of congregation that you are and type of congregation that you are and you can find other people like that in you can find other people like that in you can find other people like that in other parts of the country and and other parts of the country and and other parts of the country and and everyone's experimenting with techniques everyone's experimenting with techniques everyone's experimenting with techniques and social media and other ways of and social media and other ways of and social media and other ways of growing audience and congregation. I I growing audience and congregation. I I growing audience and congregation. I I bet it'd be super valuable. bet it'd be super valuable. bet it'd be super valuable. >> Yeah, that's what I found 20 years ago >> Yeah, that's what I found 20 years ago >> Yeah, that's what I found 20 years ago in the what is now the irresistible in the what is now the irresistible in the what is now the irresistible church network. It was just like-minded church network. It was just like-minded church network. It was just like-minded leaders. We're trying to build uh that leaders. We're trying to build uh that leaders. We're trying to build uh that out. We are building that out in the art out. We are building that out in the art out. We are building that out in the art of leadership academy. One of the of leadership academy. One of the of leadership academy. One of the things, Bill, that you you you've had things, Bill, that you you you've had things, Bill, that you you you've had experience with, you've hinted at it, experience with, you've hinted at it, experience with, you've hinted at it, right? They're they're not all open right? They're they're not all open right? They're they're not all open tables, they're not all Ubers, they're tables, they're not all Ubers, they're tables, they're not all Ubers, they're not all Zillow's. Um you you you lose not all Zillow's. Um you you you lose not all Zillow's. Um you you you lose some bets, too. Yeah. in venture capital some bets, too. Yeah. in venture capital some bets, too. Yeah. in venture capital and Jimmy Donaldson, I mean, his story and Jimmy Donaldson, I mean, his story and Jimmy Donaldson, I mean, his story is fairly well documented now. I mean, is fairly well documented now. I mean, is fairly well documented now. I mean, he spent years posting videos that got he spent years posting videos that got he spent years posting videos that got zero views, three views, uh, failure, zero views, three views, uh, failure, zero views, three views, uh, failure, and his mother had every right to say, and his mother had every right to say, and his mother had every right to say, "Listen, you're disastrous at this. "Listen, you're disastrous at this. "Listen, you're disastrous at this. Please go to school." Um, I would like, Please go to school." Um, I would like, Please go to school." Um, I would like, it seems to me like we're, this is an it seems to me like we're, this is an it seems to me like we're, this is an editorial comment. I'd love your take, editorial comment. I'd love your take, editorial comment. I'd love your take, but it seems to me like we've moved into but it seems to me like we've moved into but it seems to me like we've moved into an era where people almost want the an era where people almost want the an era where people almost want the success more than they want that success more than they want that success more than they want that curiosity. It's like I just I just want curiosity. It's like I just I just want curiosity. It's like I just I just want you to show me like, you to show me like, you to show me like, >> you know, with with all of the leaders >> you know, with with all of the leaders >> you know, with with all of the leaders you met, you met, you met, >> what is the tension between loving the >> what is the tension between loving the >> what is the tension between loving the craft as we've identified it versus no, craft as we've identified it versus no, craft as we've identified it versus no, I just want to succeed. I want the I just want to succeed. I want the I just want to succeed. I want the hacks. And then what is the long-term hacks. And then what is the long-term hacks. And then what is the long-term prognosis for each mindset? I think that prognosis for each mindset? I think that prognosis for each mindset? I think that unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately um

um um the combination of very very very the combination of very very very the combination of very very very well-intentioned parents and very very well-intentioned parents and very very well-intentioned parents and very very well-intentioned well-intentioned well-intentioned counselors and and advisors to young counselors and and advisors to young counselors and and advisors to young adults. um have gotten to a place where adults. um have gotten to a place where adults. um have gotten to a place where they're very concerned about the they're very concerned about the they're very concerned about the economic stability of economic stability of economic stability of of of of this person passing from being of of of this person passing from being of of of this person passing from being a teenager to a young adult to an adult. a teenager to a young adult to an adult. a teenager to a young adult to an adult. And they very much want them to chase a And they very much want them to chase a And they very much want them to chase a traditional job that just feels safe. traditional job that just feels safe. traditional job that just feels safe. And um you know we we sit here now where And um you know we we sit here now where And um you know we we sit here now where many of those safe jobs are under threat many of those safe jobs are under threat many of those safe jobs are under threat from AI. But if you go back before AI, from AI. But if you go back before AI, from AI. But if you go back before AI, you know, there's a 2023 Gallup poll and you know, there's a 2023 Gallup poll and you know, there's a 2023 Gallup poll and only 23% of Americans only 23% of Americans only 23% of Americans uh say they're they're engaged and uh say they're they're engaged and uh say they're they're engaged and thriving at work and the rest are not. thriving at work and the rest are not. thriving at work and the rest are not. And so you don't you don't have a And so you don't you don't have a And so you don't you don't have a situation where a lot of people feel situation where a lot of people feel situation where a lot of people feel like these people we're talking about like these people we're talking about like these people we're talking about that are in flow that that want to study that are in flow that that want to study that are in flow that that want to study all the time. A lot of people aren't in all the time. A lot of people aren't in all the time. A lot of people aren't in those places. And I think at least part those places. And I think at least part those places. And I think at least part of it is we've become quite of it is we've become quite of it is we've become quite overstructured in how we turn uh overstructured in how we turn uh overstructured in how we turn uh children into young adults and in you children into young adults and in you children into young adults and in you know into teenagers into young adults.

know into teenagers into young adults. know into teenagers into young adults. And um different people have talked And um different people have talked And um different people have talked about it. Uh Jonathan hate in Coddling about it. Uh Jonathan hate in Coddling about it. Uh Jonathan hate in Coddling of the American Mind called it the of the American Mind called it the of the American Mind called it the resume arms race. And we all know we're resume arms race. And we all know we're resume arms race. And we all know we're guilty of it. We all know it feels a guilty of it. We all know it feels a guilty of it. We all know it feels a little odd when you're little odd when you're little odd when you're >> pushing the six-year-old to basically >> pushing the six-year-old to basically >> pushing the six-year-old to basically resume pad for their college application resume pad for their college application resume pad for their college application process with cello lessons and process with cello lessons and process with cello lessons and volunteering at the uh I don't know volunteering at the uh I don't know volunteering at the uh I don't know where, but like it's all performant. where, but like it's all performant. where, but like it's all performant. It's not it's not, you know, they're It's not it's not, you know, they're It's not it's not, you know, they're they're doing it for the sake of doing they're doing it for the sake of doing they're doing it for the sake of doing it. And it. And it. And >> um and the kids time is just way more >> um and the kids time is just way more >> um and the kids time is just way more used up. Rick Rubin in his book said, used up. Rick Rubin in his book said, used up. Rick Rubin in his book said, you know, as children, few of us are you know, as children, few of us are you know, as children, few of us are taught to understand and prioritize our taught to understand and prioritize our taught to understand and prioritize our our feelings. For the most part, the our feelings. For the most part, the our feelings. For the most part, the educational system doesn't ask us to educational system doesn't ask us to educational system doesn't ask us to access our sensitivity, but to be access our sensitivity, but to be access our sensitivity, but to be obedient, to do what's expected. Our obedient, to do what's expected. Our obedient, to do what's expected. Our independent spirit is tamed. free independent spirit is tamed. free independent spirit is tamed. free thought is constraint. So it's and on thought is constraint. So it's and on thought is constraint. So it's and on top of that like the colleges if you go top of that like the colleges if you go top of that like the colleges if you go back 20 or 30 years you they wouldn't back 20 or 30 years you they wouldn't back 20 or 30 years you they wouldn't let you pick your major to the end of let you pick your major to the end of let you pick your major to the end of your sophomore year. At many schools now your sophomore year. At many schools now your sophomore year. At many schools now you have to apply to a major as part of you have to apply to a major as part of you have to apply to a major as part of the application process. And absolutely.

the application process. And absolutely. the application process. And absolutely. And so you're once again, you're just And so you're once again, you're just And so you're once again, you're just being forced into a tighter and tighter being forced into a tighter and tighter being forced into a tighter and tighter narrower and narrower path that doesn't narrower and narrower path that doesn't narrower and narrower path that doesn't really allow you the freedom to go find really allow you the freedom to go find really allow you the freedom to go find this type of of curiosity, you know, this type of of curiosity, you know, this type of of curiosity, you know, thing that that that I think is thing that that that I think is thing that that that I think is important to find. And so, um, one thing important to find. And so, um, one thing important to find. And so, um, one thing I would I really encourage I would I really encourage I would I really encourage whether it's parents or counselors, if whether it's parents or counselors, if whether it's parents or counselors, if you happen to see a spark that might be, you happen to see a spark that might be, you happen to see a spark that might be, you know, like Danny is with you know, like Danny is with you know, like Danny is with restaurants, like fan that flame. Like, restaurants, like fan that flame. Like, restaurants, like fan that flame. Like, do anything you can to help that do anything you can to help that do anything you can to help that individual feel like that's possible. individual feel like that's possible. individual feel like that's possible. And as a parent myself, I know it's it's And as a parent myself, I know it's it's And as a parent myself, I know it's it's it's hard like like if if if you think it's hard like like if if if you think it's hard like like if if if you think you know this particular individual you know this particular individual you know this particular individual could go be a could go be a could go be a McKenzie consultant, you know, they'll McKenzie consultant, you know, they'll McKenzie consultant, you know, they'll do very well financially and they they do very well financially and they they do very well financially and they they you know, but if they really are you know, but if they really are you know, but if they really are passionate about being a you know, passionate about being a you know, passionate about being a you know, basketball coach, that's okay, too. you basketball coach, that's okay, too. you basketball coach, that's okay, too. you know, like if they're really really know, like if they're really really know, like if they're really really passionate about it, they're going to passionate about it, they're going to passionate about it, they're going to have a way more fulfilling life doing have a way more fulfilling life doing have a way more fulfilling life doing that and they're going to fill up with that and they're going to fill up with that and they're going to fill up with energy. They're going to be in that flow energy. They're going to be in that flow energy. They're going to be in that flow state all the time. And and the other state all the time. And and the other state all the time. And and the other thing I've told some young kids who are thing I've told some young kids who are thing I've told some young kids who are very purpose driven, almost every single very purpose driven, almost every single very purpose driven, almost every single person we cover in the book that ends up person we cover in the book that ends up person we cover in the book that ends up thriving in their business, and Danny's thriving in their business, and Danny's thriving in their business, and Danny's a great example, ends up touching so

a great example, ends up touching so a great example, ends up touching so many lives. like they end up having so many lives. like they end up having so many lives. like they end up having so much positive impact on the world much positive impact on the world much positive impact on the world because because because they redefine their industry and and they redefine their industry and and they redefine their industry and and then they share back into that world. then they share back into that world. then they share back into that world. And if you you met someone that worked And if you you met someone that worked And if you you met someone that worked for Danny, anybody that's ever worked at for Danny, anybody that's ever worked at for Danny, anybody that's ever worked at one of Danny's restaurants, it's like one of Danny's restaurants, it's like one of Danny's restaurants, it's like one of the highlights of their resume. one of the highlights of their resume. one of the highlights of their resume. They talk about it like for the rest of They talk about it like for the rest of They talk about it like for the rest of their life. like they it it be it's a their life. like they it it be it's a their life. like they it it be it's a it's a piece of walkaround collateral it's a piece of walkaround collateral it's a piece of walkaround collateral that you you know were involved in this that you you know were involved in this that you you know were involved in this big tent that Danny created over time. big tent that Danny created over time. big tent that Danny created over time. And so anyway, I think that's really, And so anyway, I think that's really, And so anyway, I think that's really, as I mentioned with, you know, the Jerry as I mentioned with, you know, the Jerry as I mentioned with, you know, the Jerry Seinfeld story and the book he read, Seinfeld story and the book he read, Seinfeld story and the book he read, like I hope that we can give as many like I hope that we can give as many like I hope that we can give as many people as possible permission to go live people as possible permission to go live people as possible permission to go live this life of of flow, as you say, like this life of of flow, as you say, like this life of of flow, as you say, like because they're in the right place. and because they're in the right place. and because they're in the right place. and and and and the book. I want the book to speak to the book. I want the book to speak to the book. I want the book to speak to the young people who are making the the young people who are making the the young people who are making the decision on what they're going to go do decision on what they're going to go do decision on what they're going to go do with their life, but I also want the with their life, but I also want the with their life, but I also want the book to be helpful as a guide to the the book to be helpful as a guide to the the book to be helpful as a guide to the the the people that are around that young the people that are around that young the people that are around that young person and giving them advice on on how person and giving them advice on on how person and giving them advice on on how you should maybe approach that situation you should maybe approach that situation you should maybe approach that situation uh when it when it comes up in the uh when it when it comes up in the uh when it when it comes up in the future. And I think if you teach future. And I think if you teach future. And I think if you teach yourself to be more open-minded and yourself to be more open-minded and yourself to be more open-minded and encouraging, you're you're going to find encouraging, you're you're going to find encouraging, you're you're going to find I I got this great email from a parent

I I got this great email from a parent I I got this great email from a parent that had watched the video that I that had watched the video that I that had watched the video that I mentioned, the early version of this mentioned, the early version of this mentioned, the early version of this book, and their child was at a reputable book, and their child was at a reputable book, and their child was at a reputable college in finance, I believe, and came college in finance, I believe, and came college in finance, I believe, and came home one day and said, you know, I'm home one day and said, you know, I'm home one day and said, you know, I'm really spending all my spare time in really spending all my spare time in really spending all my spare time in this other thing. And it wasn't as um this other thing. And it wasn't as um this other thing. And it wasn't as um certain as finance or anything like certain as finance or anything like certain as finance or anything like that. But the parent told me about their that. But the parent told me about their that. But the parent told me about their journey from acceptance to embracing to journey from acceptance to embracing to journey from acceptance to embracing to you know encouraging. And as the parent you know encouraging. And as the parent you know encouraging. And as the parent went through those stages, the went through those stages, the went through those stages, the relationship between the parent and the relationship between the parent and the relationship between the parent and the child blossomed like because and the child blossomed like because and the child blossomed like because and the confidence the parent said the confidence the parent said the confidence the parent said the confidence of the child went up confidence of the child went up confidence of the child went up dramatically as well and and hopefully dramatically as well and and hopefully dramatically as well and and hopefully they'll go thrive in that in that new they'll go thrive in that in that new they'll go thrive in that in that new industry. Um but it was such such a industry. Um but it was such such a industry. Um but it was such such a heartwarming email to get. Now, we uh we heartwarming email to get. Now, we uh we heartwarming email to get. Now, we uh we have a software engineer and an have a software engineer and an have a software engineer and an accountant as our two sons, and we've accountant as our two sons, and we've accountant as our two sons, and we've had that conversation. You know, they're had that conversation. You know, they're had that conversation. You know, they're both in their 30s now, but they're like, both in their 30s now, but they're like, both in their 30s now, but they're like, "We felt that pressure to get that "We felt that pressure to get that "We felt that pressure to get that career." And I'm like, "Yeah, guilty is career." And I'm like, "Yeah, guilty is career." And I'm like, "Yeah, guilty is charged." And so, uh it will continue to charged." And so, uh it will continue to charged." And so, uh it will continue to lead to some interesting conversations.

lead to some interesting conversations. lead to some interesting conversations. >> One data point that that was uncovered >> One data point that that was uncovered >> One data point that that was uncovered by Dave Evans in the in the great book by Dave Evans in the in the great book by Dave Evans in the in the great book um Designing Your Life. Um, if you look um Designing Your Life. Um, if you look um Designing Your Life. Um, if you look at the stats, like four or five years at the stats, like four or five years at the stats, like four or five years out of college, 40% of people are no out of college, 40% of people are no out of college, 40% of people are no longer in the in the career that their longer in the in the career that their longer in the in the career that their major was. And when you get to 10 years, major was. And when you get to 10 years, major was. And when you get to 10 years, that numbers drops even further. And so that numbers drops even further. And so that numbers drops even further. And so it's important I think for people to it's important I think for people to it's important I think for people to know that because we've we put so much know that because we've we put so much know that because we've we put so much weight on this college journey and this weight on this college journey and this weight on this college journey and this degree that that you maybe have created degree that that you maybe have created degree that that you maybe have created this belief that you have to stay in this belief that you have to stay in this belief that you have to stay in that lane like oh I've invested all this that lane like oh I've invested all this that lane like oh I've invested all this time like why would I ever consider time like why would I ever consider time like why would I ever consider leading and I think just helping young leading and I think just helping young leading and I think just helping young adults understand that people do move adults understand that people do move adults understand that people do move around and by the way some of the people around and by the way some of the people around and by the way some of the people that move around David Epste in his book that move around David Epste in his book that move around David Epste in his book Range like some of the people that move Range like some of the people that move Range like some of the people that move around are the ones that have the around are the ones that have the around are the ones that have the biggest impact on a field. Like they biggest impact on a field. Like they biggest impact on a field. Like they come into it late that studied something come into it late that studied something come into it late that studied something else and like they bring new ideas. Um else and like they bring new ideas. Um else and like they bring new ideas. Um and so it's perfectly fine. I think and so it's perfectly fine. I think and so it's perfectly fine. I think that's another lesson that's important that's another lesson that's important that's another lesson that's important for people to understand. It's perfectly for people to understand. It's perfectly for people to understand. It's perfectly fine to repot yourself, to move around, fine to repot yourself, to move around, fine to repot yourself, to move around, to try something new. And the one caveat to try something new. And the one caveat to try something new. And the one caveat I would give on that which I think is I would give on that which I think is I would give on that which I think is important is um don't overspend early in important is um don't overspend early in important is um don't overspend early in your life. like like don't spend right your life. like like don't spend right your life. like like don't spend right up to cuz then you're stuck. Then you up to cuz then you're stuck. Then you up to cuz then you're stuck. Then you don't have the flexibility.

don't have the flexibility. don't have the flexibility. >> You get the golden handcuffs. It's like >> You get the golden handcuffs. It's like >> You get the golden handcuffs. It's like I absolutely need this job and you can't I absolutely need this job and you can't I absolutely need this job and you can't pull a Danny Meyer and take a 90% pay pull a Danny Meyer and take a 90% pay pull a Danny Meyer and take a 90% pay cut and do something else with your cut and do something else with your cut and do something else with your life. life. life. >> It's super important when you're young >> It's super important when you're young >> It's super important when you're young to not live right up against the edge of to not live right up against the edge of to not live right up against the edge of your paycheck because then then you get your paycheck because then then you get your paycheck because then then you get stuck. stuck. stuck. >> Yeah. Oh wow. I'll tell you there's a >> Yeah. Oh wow. I'll tell you there's a >> Yeah. Oh wow. I'll tell you there's a couple more things I'd love to ask you couple more things I'd love to ask you couple more things I'd love to ask you about before we wrap up, Bill. one's about before we wrap up, Bill. one's about before we wrap up, Bill. one's one's definitely not a a softball. Um, one's definitely not a a softball. Um, one's definitely not a a softball. Um, and it could be a whole podcast, but I'd and it could be a whole podcast, but I'd and it could be a whole podcast, but I'd just like uh your take on the impact of just like uh your take on the impact of just like uh your take on the impact of AI. I mean, you're very connected and AI. I mean, you're very connected and AI. I mean, you're very connected and have invested in a lot of AI companies. have invested in a lot of AI companies. have invested in a lot of AI companies. What is that? What is the impact of AI What is that? What is the impact of AI What is that? What is the impact of AI on jobs, do you think, particularly on jobs, do you think, particularly on jobs, do you think, particularly white collar jobs? white collar jobs? white collar jobs? Um Um Um there there's my first reaction is there there's my first reaction is there there's my first reaction is there's this concept that I read about a there's this concept that I read about a there's this concept that I read about a long time ago about how humans evolve long time ago about how humans evolve long time ago about how humans evolve with their tools. And so um if you took with their tools. And so um if you took with their tools. And so um if you took a human, you know, with no hoe, no saw, a human, you know, with no hoe, no saw, a human, you know, with no hoe, no saw, no, you know, fire, whatever, like they no, you know, fire, whatever, like they no, you know, fire, whatever, like they can't do as much as someone that has can't do as much as someone that has can't do as much as someone that has these other things, right? It's just these other things, right? It's just these other things, right? It's just pretty obvious [clears throat] that we pretty obvious [clears throat] that we pretty obvious [clears throat] that we evolve with our tools.

evolve with our tools. evolve with our tools. >> And so there's a new tool out there and >> And so there's a new tool out there and >> And so there's a new tool out there and it's called AI. And if you're not it's called AI. And if you're not it's called AI. And if you're not rolling around in it and you don't know rolling around in it and you don't know rolling around in it and you don't know what it's possible of doing in your what it's possible of doing in your what it's possible of doing in your field, you you're exposing yourself to field, you you're exposing yourself to field, you you're exposing yourself to to [clears throat] to [clears throat] to [clears throat] a really dangerous situation. And I'd a really dangerous situation. And I'd a really dangerous situation. And I'd say that's true in any field. And so say that's true in any field. And so say that's true in any field. And so this thing came at us fast. It's like a this thing came at us fast. It's like a this thing came at us fast. It's like a It's like a ultra, you know, the It's like a ultra, you know, the It's like a ultra, you know, the calculator came along and then the calculator came along and then the calculator came along and then the computer came along. This thing is so computer came along. This thing is so computer came along. This thing is so kind of powerful fast. Imagine that like kind of powerful fast. Imagine that like kind of powerful fast. Imagine that like instead of this stopping with the instead of this stopping with the instead of this stopping with the calculator, imagine the computer just calculator, imagine the computer just calculator, imagine the computer just showed up, you know, and you never had showed up, you know, and you never had showed up, you know, and you never had the calculator transition point. Like I the calculator transition point. Like I the calculator transition point. Like I think it's kind of that powerful. Yeah. think it's kind of that powerful. Yeah. think it's kind of that powerful. Yeah. >> And unfortunately, if you don't have AI >> And unfortunately, if you don't have AI >> And unfortunately, if you don't have AI skills, you need them. Like you just skills, you need them. Like you just skills, you need them. Like you just need them. And so I would tell everybody need them. And so I would tell everybody need them. And so I would tell everybody out there in every field, know what it's out there in every field, know what it's out there in every field, know what it's capable of in your field. Like play capable of in your field. Like play capable of in your field. Like play around with it, get to know it, and this around with it, get to know it, and this around with it, get to know it, and this the thing that's going to give you the the thing that's going to give you the the thing that's going to give you the most job protection is to be that most job protection is to be that most job protection is to be that person, the person that understands it person, the person that understands it person, the person that understands it the most in your field. And um I wish it the most in your field. And um I wish it the most in your field. And um I wish it weren't true, but I mean you go back to weren't true, but I mean you go back to weren't true, but I mean you go back to like the lathe versus the you know the like the lathe versus the you know the like the lathe versus the you know the the loom I'm sorry the loom versus the the loom I'm sorry the loom versus the the loom I'm sorry the loom versus the seamstress where the word lite comes seamstress where the word lite comes seamstress where the word lite comes from like like innovation happens and from like like innovation happens and from like like innovation happens and and that leads to more progress for and that leads to more progress for and that leads to more progress for humanity. It leads to more prosperity humanity. It leads to more prosperity humanity. It leads to more prosperity for more people on the planet. Um but it

for more people on the planet. Um but it for more people on the planet. Um but it does lead to dislocation. And the worst does lead to dislocation. And the worst does lead to dislocation. And the worst thing, the thing that's going to thing, the thing that's going to thing, the thing that's going to increase your odds of dislocation the increase your odds of dislocation the increase your odds of dislocation the most is to either be a naysayer or to most is to either be a naysayer or to most is to either be a naysayer or to never touch it or never understand it. never touch it or never understand it. never touch it or never understand it. It does have limitations, but it gets It does have limitations, but it gets It does have limitations, but it gets better every day. I I've met a lot of better every day. I I've met a lot of better every day. I I've met a lot of people, especially older people, who people, especially older people, who people, especially older people, who used it once, got it to give them a bad used it once, got it to give them a bad used it once, got it to give them a bad answer, you know, got it to fail, and answer, you know, got it to fail, and answer, you know, got it to fail, and then they're like, "Oh, no, that's then they're like, "Oh, no, that's then they're like, "Oh, no, that's doesn't work. That stuff doesn't work." doesn't work. That stuff doesn't work." doesn't work. That stuff doesn't work." Look, and and they point to it. Look, I Look, and and they point to it. Look, I Look, and and they point to it. Look, I did this test. And I say to him, did this test. And I say to him, did this test. And I say to him, >> did you do that test again 6 months >> did you do that test again 6 months >> did you do that test again 6 months later and 6 months after that? Cuz you later and 6 months after that? Cuz you later and 6 months after that? Cuz you may be surprised that that that same may be surprised that that that same may be surprised that that that same failure may not be happening anymore. failure may not be happening anymore. failure may not be happening anymore. Like like it's a real like whatever Like like it's a real like whatever Like like it's a real like whatever instinct you might have to instinct you might have to instinct you might have to just be salty or negative about it, like just be salty or negative about it, like just be salty or negative about it, like that's a sign that you're in a really that's a sign that you're in a really that's a sign that you're in a really bad spot. Mhm. bad spot. Mhm. bad spot. Mhm. So, you've also had my last question I So, you've also had my last question I So, you've also had my last question I guess is uh a chance to meet some of the guess is uh a chance to meet some of the guess is uh a chance to meet some of the top leaders in the world. You've worked top leaders in the world. You've worked top leaders in the world. You've worked with Michael Dell, you've worked with with Michael Dell, you've worked with with Michael Dell, you've worked with Jeff Bezos, you've worked with CEOs of Jeff Bezos, you've worked with CEOs of Jeff Bezos, you've worked with CEOs of so many companies that we've met. What so many companies that we've met. What so many companies that we've met. What are some common not just in the startup are some common not just in the startup are some common not just in the startup phase where you're are we going to take phase where you're are we going to take phase where you're are we going to take a bet on these guys or not? But when you a bet on these guys or not? But when you a bet on these guys or not? But when you watch them lead over 20 or 30 years, watch them lead over 20 or 30 years, watch them lead over 20 or 30 years, what are some of the top characteristics what are some of the top characteristics what are some of the top characteristics that you see these leaders embody?

that you see these leaders embody? that you see these leaders embody? >> Yeah. The first thing that pops to mind >> Yeah. The first thing that pops to mind >> Yeah. The first thing that pops to mind is this continuous learning piece. You is this continuous learning piece. You is this continuous learning piece. You know, the the the fellow Canadian Toby know, the the the fellow Canadian Toby know, the the the fellow Canadian Toby at Shopify is one of my favorite people at Shopify is one of my favorite people at Shopify is one of my favorite people on the planet and like anytime he does a on the planet and like anytime he does a on the planet and like anytime he does a podcast or interview, I'm immediately podcast or interview, I'm immediately podcast or interview, I'm immediately drawn to it and I would encourage drawn to it and I would encourage drawn to it and I would encourage everyone to watch. Um, but he on a everyone to watch. Um, but he on a everyone to watch. Um, but he on a recent podcast said, you know, he was recent podcast said, you know, he was recent podcast said, you know, he was just talking about reading. Like reading just talking about reading. Like reading just talking about reading. Like reading is like this free gift. There's people is like this free gift. There's people is like this free gift. There's people putting knowledge out there constantly putting knowledge out there constantly putting knowledge out there constantly and I've just found they all devour. You and I've just found they all devour. You and I've just found they all devour. You know, Warren Buffett would set aside know, Warren Buffett would set aside know, Warren Buffett would set aside three hours a day just to read things he three hours a day just to read things he three hours a day just to read things he didn't know. So that's one. Um the didn't know. So that's one. Um the didn't know. So that's one. Um the second one I would say is um second one I would say is um second one I would say is um a confidence in having independent a confidence in having independent a confidence in having independent opinions. Like and I see this with Bezos opinions. Like and I see this with Bezos opinions. Like and I see this with Bezos quite a bit and I certainly see it with quite a bit and I certainly see it with quite a bit and I certainly see it with Toby at Shopify. like they're not they Toby at Shopify. like they're not they Toby at Shopify. like they're not they don't just go along with what everyone don't just go along with what everyone don't just go along with what everyone else is doing because everyone else is else is doing because everyone else is else is doing because everyone else is doing it. Like they're constantly doing it. Like they're constantly doing it. Like they're constantly questioning, you know, what's right or questioning, you know, what's right or questioning, you know, what's right or wrong. They know there is huge advantage wrong. They know there is huge advantage wrong. They know there is huge advantage in having a an opinion that's that's in having a an opinion that's that's in having a an opinion that's that's that's not um that's not um that's not um consensus, right? If you have a consensus, right? If you have a consensus, right? If you have a non-consensus idea that's right, that's non-consensus idea that's right, that's non-consensus idea that's right, that's where you that's where you win. That's where you that's where you win. That's where you that's where you win. That's where you make the most money. That's where you make the most money. That's where you make the most money. That's where you and so you you need to be where you and so you you need to be where you and so you you need to be looking for that and um it's that that looking for that and um it's that that looking for that and um it's that that that's this kind of

that's this kind of that's this kind of superpower you know advanced level superpower you know advanced level superpower you know advanced level execution as a CEO is when cuz early on execution as a CEO is when cuz early on execution as a CEO is when cuz early on you're just you're you know we said you're just you're you know we said you're just you're you know we said study the history study the great like study the history study the great like study the history study the great like you're building this fabric of best you're building this fabric of best you're building this fabric of best practice and mental models but the ones practice and mental models but the ones practice and mental models but the ones that go the step further start to that go the step further start to that go the step further start to innovate on top of that and and and innovate on top of that and and and innovate on top of that and and and sometimes they get that from talking to sometimes they get that from talking to sometimes they get that from talking to people outside the field is a great way people outside the field is a great way people outside the field is a great way to get that and bring it back. But but to get that and bring it back. But but to get that and bring it back. But but that's the other one. And then they're that's the other one. And then they're that's the other one. And then they're all great leaders of people, which is a all great leaders of people, which is a all great leaders of people, which is a skill that I'm not particularly blessed skill that I'm not particularly blessed skill that I'm not particularly blessed with. Um it sounds like you've studied with. Um it sounds like you've studied with. Um it sounds like you've studied it quite a bit, but you can't a it quite a bit, but you can't a it quite a bit, but you can't a >> little bit. You can't, you know, if >> little bit. You can't, you know, if >> little bit. You can't, you know, if you're successful in venture, I mean, as you're successful in venture, I mean, as you're successful in venture, I mean, as a founder, your company goes from 10 a founder, your company goes from 10 a founder, your company goes from 10 employees to 100 to a,000 to 10,000 to employees to 100 to a,000 to 10,000 to employees to 100 to a,000 to 10,000 to 100,000. And um you can't do that if 100,000. And um you can't do that if 100,000. And um you can't do that if you're not good at leadership. There's you're not good at leadership. There's you're not good at leadership. There's no way to to get that many people. And no way to to get that many people. And no way to to get that many people. And one of the things that I've been so one of the things that I've been so one of the things that I've been so impressed by with Bezos is that impressed by with Bezos is that impressed by with Bezos is that company's up to I think 400,000 company's up to I think 400,000 company's up to I think 400,000 employees, maybe more. And it's still employees, maybe more. And it's still employees, maybe more. And it's still innovative like and and how like what innovative like and and how like what innovative like and and how like what process he's not talking to all those process he's not talking to all those process he's not talking to all those people like he he instilled processes people like he he instilled processes people like he he instilled processes through the organization that make it through the organization that make it through the organization that make it okay to try new things and to fail and okay to try new things and to fail and okay to try new things and to fail and that's super hard to do like it's just that's super hard to do like it's just that's super hard to do like it's just super hard to do. I think Elon's um super hard to do. I think Elon's um super hard to do. I think Elon's um leadership across multiple companies

leadership across multiple companies leadership across multiple companies even is uh is a curiosity to a lot of even is uh is a curiosity to a lot of even is uh is a curiosity to a lot of people like I don't people like I don't people like I don't >> it is a curiosity. I've read Isacson's >> it is a curiosity. I've read Isacson's >> it is a curiosity. I've read Isacson's biography of him biography of him biography of him >> and I mean it's going to be very >> and I mean it's going to be very >> and I mean it's going to be very interesting to see when his time on interesting to see when his time on interesting to see when his time on earth wraps up. Uh earth wraps up. Uh earth wraps up. Uh >> yeah, if we can unpack it. I'm not sure >> yeah, if we can unpack it. I'm not sure >> yeah, if we can unpack it. I'm not sure people fully understand it right now. people fully understand it right now. people fully understand it right now. >> No, he's a different bird. He's a >> No, he's a different bird. He's a >> No, he's a different bird. He's a different bird. Yeah. Bill, I got to different bird. Yeah. Bill, I got to different bird. Yeah. Bill, I got to tell you, this has been the time has tell you, this has been the time has tell you, this has been the time has flown. Uh, I feel like I am uh much flown. Uh, I feel like I am uh much flown. Uh, I feel like I am uh much better equipped and understanding around better equipped and understanding around better equipped and understanding around well a multiplicity of things. The book, well a multiplicity of things. The book, well a multiplicity of things. The book, by the way, was that a Tom Petty thing by the way, was that a Tom Petty thing by the way, was that a Tom Petty thing of running down a dream? of running down a dream? of running down a dream? >> Um, I I found quite a number of use >> Um, I I found quite a number of use >> Um, I I found quite a number of use cases prior to his, so I don't think it cases prior to his, so I don't think it cases prior to his, so I don't think it like I don't think he has exclusive. like I don't think he has exclusive. like I don't think he has exclusive. >> He doesn't own the trademark, but but >> He doesn't own the trademark, but but >> He doesn't own the trademark, but but >> but it's a great song. I I I went to I >> but it's a great song. I I I went to I >> but it's a great song. I I I went to I played basketball at the University of played basketball at the University of played basketball at the University of Florida. Tom Petty was born in Florida. Tom Petty was born in Florida. Tom Petty was born in Gainesville, Florida. And so there's a Gainesville, Florida. And so there's a Gainesville, Florida. And so there's a lot of a lot of Petty uh in the in the lot of a lot of Petty uh in the in the lot of a lot of Petty uh in the in the water there, as you might say. Yeah.

water there, as you might say. Yeah. water there, as you might say. Yeah. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Well, it's called >> Well, it's called >> Well, it's called >> And we end the book with a with a Tom >> And we end the book with a with a Tom >> And we end the book with a with a Tom Petty quote actually at the very end. So Petty quote actually at the very end. So Petty quote actually at the very end. So >> yeah, I I had one in my book until very >> yeah, I I had one in my book until very >> yeah, I I had one in my book until very recently. I just took it out. It was the recently. I just took it out. It was the recently. I just took it out. It was the waiting is the hardest part. Another waiting is the hardest part. Another waiting is the hardest part. Another [laughter] great song. So anyway, uh [laughter] great song. So anyway, uh [laughter] great song. So anyway, uh Bill, the book is called Running Down a Bill, the book is called Running Down a Bill, the book is called Running Down a Dream. It's available everywhere. Dream. It's available everywhere. Dream. It's available everywhere. Anything in particular if people want to Anything in particular if people want to Anything in particular if people want to follow you? You're very active on X. follow you? You're very active on X. follow you? You're very active on X. >> Yeah, on X. Be girly. BG Gu L E Y is >> Yeah, on X. Be girly. BG Gu L E Y is >> Yeah, on X. Be girly. BG Gu L E Y is probably the best place to follow. probably the best place to follow. probably the best place to follow. >> Got there early. >> Got there early. >> Got there early. >> Yeah. I want to mention one more thing, >> Yeah. I want to mention one more thing, >> Yeah. I want to mention one more thing, Carrie. We um Carrie. We um Carrie. We um >> as the book la it launches on February >> as the book la it launches on February >> as the book la it launches on February 23rd, I'm going to start moving my 23rd, I'm going to start moving my 23rd, I'm going to start moving my attention towards a foundation that attention towards a foundation that attention towards a foundation that we're launching simultaneously with the we're launching simultaneously with the we're launching simultaneously with the book. So, we're going to we're going to book. So, we're going to we're going to book. So, we're going to we're going to take applications. So, for people that take applications. So, for people that take applications. So, for people that want to chase their dreams but may be want to chase their dreams but may be want to chase their dreams but may be stuck financially, we're going to do stuck financially, we're going to do stuck financially, we're going to do grants to to we're going to do a hundred grants to to we're going to do a hundred grants to to we're going to do a hundred a year is where we're going to start a year is where we're going to start a year is where we're going to start $5,000 grants to people to help them $5,000 grants to people to help them $5,000 grants to people to help them chase their dreams. And so, I don't know chase their dreams. And so, I don't know chase their dreams. And so, I don't know how that's going to play out. Um I'm how that's going to play out. Um I'm how that's going to play out. Um I'm going to put all the my proceeds of the going to put all the my proceeds of the going to put all the my proceeds of the book towards that effort. But I'm book towards that effort. But I'm book towards that effort. But I'm excited to see if we can help some excited to see if we can help some excited to see if we can help some people uh achieve their dreams.

people uh achieve their dreams. people uh achieve their dreams. >> That's amazing. Okay. And where would >> That's amazing. Okay. And where would >> That's amazing. Okay. And where would they discover information? they discover information? they discover information? >> rd a.org. >> rd a.org. >> rd a.org. So rdad.org. So rdad.org. So rdad.org. Run it down. Run it down. Run it down. >> Okay. And we will put that in um the >> Okay. And we will put that in um the >> Okay. And we will put that in um the show notes with everything else. show notes with everything else. show notes with everything else. >> Right now it just has you put an email >> Right now it just has you put an email >> Right now it just has you put an email in. So and because I haven't built the in. So and because I haven't built the in. So and because I haven't built the application process yet, but I'm going application process yet, but I'm going application process yet, but I'm going to turn to that uh right after the to turn to that uh right after the to turn to that uh right after the book's out. book's out. book's out. >> Okay. Bill, uh, this has been a great >> Okay. Bill, uh, this has been a great >> Okay. Bill, uh, this has been a great first conversation. Thank you so much. first conversation. Thank you so much. first conversation. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Always fun to have a legendary investor >> Always fun to have a legendary investor >> Always fun to have a legendary investor on the podcast. We have everything he on the podcast. We have everything he on the podcast. We have everything he talked about and more inside the show talked about and more inside the show talked about and more inside the show notes. Best place to get them is in my notes. Best place to get them is in my notes. Best place to get them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. We are adding Art of Leadership Academy. We are adding Art of Leadership Academy. We are adding leaders every single day. We're around leaders every single day. We're around leaders every single day. We're around 20,000 now leaders who have signed up 20,000 now leaders who have signed up 20,000 now leaders who have signed up for free for the Art of Leadership for free for the Art of Leadership for free for the Art of Leadership Academy. There's also a premium version Academy. There's also a premium version Academy. There's also a premium version which gives you much, much more. But if which gives you much, much more. But if which gives you much, much more. But if you want the show notes, go to the you want the show notes, go to the you want the show notes, go to the arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. Next episode, I've got Chelsea Smith Next episode, I've got Chelsea Smith Next episode, I've got Chelsea Smith coming up. Also coming up, Preston coming up. Also coming up, Preston coming up. Also coming up, Preston Sprinkle, Eric Rise, Dave Ferguson, Rich Sprinkle, Eric Rise, Dave Ferguson, Rich Sprinkle, Eric Rise, Dave Ferguson, Rich Veus, Dr. Nicole Martin, and Joel Veus, Dr. Nicole Martin, and Joel Veus, Dr. Nicole Martin, and Joel Mammole. Thank you so much for listening Mammole. Thank you so much for listening Mammole. Thank you so much for listening everybody. If you have enjoyed this everybody. If you have enjoyed this everybody. If you have enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and episode, please leave a rating and episode, please leave a rating and review wherever you're watching, review wherever you're watching, review wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Subscribe, wherever you're listening. Subscribe, wherever you're listening. Subscribe, follow, make sure you don't miss the follow, make sure you don't miss the follow, make sure you don't miss the upcoming episodes. And if this really upcoming episodes. And if this really upcoming episodes. And if this really meant something to you, maybe you should meant something to you, maybe you should meant something to you, maybe you should share it with a friend.