Is Atheism Declining? Here's how to talk to spiritually open people.

I don't think what people need I don't think what people need necessarily is just more content and necessarily is just more content and necessarily is just more content and that's sometimes the danger of the that's sometimes the danger of the that's sometimes the danger of the church is just sort of delivering them church is just sort of delivering them church is just sort of delivering them yet another video or podcast or yet another video or podcast or yet another video or podcast or whatever. whatever. whatever. Um I mean I I create that stuff so in a Um I mean I I create that stuff so in a Um I mean I I create that stuff so in a sense I'm I'm I'm the worst defender sense I'm I'm I'm the worst defender sense I'm I'm I'm the worst defender here but the the here but the the here but the the I suppose I suppose what the church I suppose I suppose what the church I suppose I suppose what the church needs to do is is to remind people of needs to do is is to remind people of needs to do is is to remind people of the depth that's there. There's the depth that's there. There's the depth that's there. There's We we what we're really overwhelmed with We we what we're really overwhelmed with We we what we're really overwhelmed with now is a lot of shallow now is a lot of shallow now is a lot of shallow media. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof media. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof media. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you're Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you're Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you're watching today. Hey, if you're new here, watching today. Hey, if you're new here, watching today. Hey, if you're new here, you're in for a treat. We've got Justin you're in for a treat. We've got Justin you're in for a treat. We've got Justin Brierley and believe it or not Brierley and believe it or not Brierley and believe it or not apologetics is getting better. We're apologetics is getting better. We're apologetics is getting better. We're going to talk all about it. There's a going to talk all about it. There's a going to talk all about it. There's a spiritual openness and also there's a spiritual openness and also there's a spiritual openness and also there's a new approach to apologetics and a new approach to apologetics and a new approach to apologetics and a collapse from the new atheism that you collapse from the new atheism that you collapse from the new atheism that you need to know about. So, if you enjoy need to know about. So, if you enjoy need to know about. So, if you enjoy this episode, make sure you subscribe, this episode, make sure you subscribe, this episode, make sure you subscribe, like the episode and then maybe leave a like the episode and then maybe leave a like the episode and then maybe leave a comment. Let us know what you think and comment. Let us know what you think and comment. Let us know what you think and we'll be right into the interview after we'll be right into the interview after we'll be right into the interview after a word from today's sponsors. This a word from today's sponsors. This a word from today's sponsors. This episode is brought to you by The Art of episode is brought to you by The Art of episode is brought to you by The Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're looking Leadership Live. Hey, if you're looking Leadership Live. Hey, if you're looking to level up your leadership and take to level up your leadership and take to level up your leadership and take your church to the next level, your church to the next level, your church to the next level, in September I'm hosting The Art of in September I'm hosting The Art of in September I'm hosting The Art of Leadership Alive event in Dallas, Texas.

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learn more, go to Subsplash.com/carey. learn more, go to Subsplash.com/carey. You can schedule a quick no obligation You can schedule a quick no obligation You can schedule a quick no obligation demo and save 30% on your platform demo and save 30% on your platform demo and save 30% on your platform subscription and you can set that all up subscription and you can set that all up subscription and you can set that all up when you sign up with Subsplash as your when you sign up with Subsplash as your when you sign up with Subsplash as your exclusive giving provider. Justin, exclusive giving provider. Justin, exclusive giving provider. Justin, welcome to the podcast. It's great to welcome to the podcast. It's great to welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on for the first time. have you on for the first time. have you on for the first time. Well, thank you for having me, Carey. Well, thank you for having me, Carey. Well, thank you for having me, Carey. It's great to be with you. It's great to be with you. It's great to be with you. Well, I'm going to start with you know, Well, I'm going to start with you know, Well, I'm going to start with you know, the burning question that was on the burning question that was on the burning question that was on everyone's mind when they woke up this everyone's mind when they woke up this everyone's mind when they woke up this morning which is Christianity kind of morning which is Christianity kind of morning which is Christianity kind of died in Europe and the UK in the 19th died in Europe and the UK in the 19th died in Europe and the UK in the 19th century, right? Nobody Nobody thinks century, right? Nobody Nobody thinks century, right? Nobody Nobody thinks about that but I do have a degree in about that but I do have a degree in about that but I do have a degree in history. And I think it maybe is is history. And I think it maybe is is history. And I think it maybe is is going to be helpful for us to going to be helpful for us to going to be helpful for us to uh discussing what we want to talk about uh discussing what we want to talk about uh discussing what we want to talk about the surprising rebirth of curiosity and the surprising rebirth of curiosity and the surprising rebirth of curiosity and faith. But I think often history is our faith. But I think often history is our faith. But I think often history is our friend. So, you know, as a European, as friend. So, you know, as a European, as friend. So, you know, as a European, as a Brit, I would love for you and and as a Brit, I would love for you and and as a Brit, I would love for you and and as a student of this thing to take us back a student of this thing to take us back a student of this thing to take us back a couple of centuries. What happened in a couple of centuries. What happened in a couple of centuries. What happened in the 19th century to set the stage for the 19th century to set the stage for the 19th century to set the stage for the decline of the Christian faith? And the decline of the Christian faith? And the decline of the Christian faith? And for those listeners who are like, why for those listeners who are like, why for those listeners who are like, why would you start with that? Most my would you start with that? Most my would you start with that? Most my listeners are American. It's because, listeners are American. It's because, listeners are American. It's because, you know, Tim Keller made the argument you know, Tim Keller made the argument you know, Tim Keller made the argument before he died as well.

before he died as well. before he died as well. What's happened in the 19th century or What's happened in the 19th century or What's happened in the 19th century or 20th century to the mainline church is 20th century to the mainline church is 20th century to the mainline church is happening to the evangelical church in happening to the evangelical church in happening to the evangelical church in the 21st century but I think you could the 21st century but I think you could the 21st century but I think you could extend that and say and also what extend that and say and also what extend that and say and also what happened to the European and UK church happened to the European and UK church happened to the European and UK church in the 19th century happened in America in the 19th century happened in America in the 19th century happened in America in the 20th. in the 20th. in the 20th. It's happening to evangelicals in the It's happening to evangelicals in the It's happening to evangelicals in the 21st. So. Yeah, I I think there's a lot 21st. So. Yeah, I I think there's a lot 21st. So. Yeah, I I think there's a lot of truth in that. of truth in that. of truth in that. And and it's one thing to say that And and it's one thing to say that And and it's one thing to say that Christianity died or began dying in the Christianity died or began dying in the Christianity died or began dying in the 19th century because arguably the 19th century because arguably the 19th century because arguably the Victorian era was the high the high Victorian era was the high the high Victorian era was the high the high point of church going in in some ways in point of church going in in some ways in point of church going in in some ways in the UK. the UK. the UK. Um and yet at the same time I think Um and yet at the same time I think Um and yet at the same time I think there were the seeds were there for what there were the seeds were there for what there were the seeds were there for what became, you know, 150 years later the became, you know, 150 years later the became, you know, 150 years later the sort of sort of sort of the tiny numbers really who now attend the tiny numbers really who now attend the tiny numbers really who now attend in comparison in the UK. And and we're in comparison in the UK. And and we're in comparison in the UK. And and we're seeing the same as you say in the West. seeing the same as you say in the West. seeing the same as you say in the West. I actually begin my my book and podcast I actually begin my my book and podcast I actually begin my my book and podcast series with a quote from that that series with a quote from that that series with a quote from that that well-known poem Dover Beach by Matthew well-known poem Dover Beach by Matthew well-known poem Dover Beach by Matthew Arnold, a Victorian poet, which which Arnold, a Victorian poet, which which Arnold, a Victorian poet, which which talks about the melancholy long talks about the melancholy long talks about the melancholy long withdrawing roar of the sea of faith.

withdrawing roar of the sea of faith. withdrawing roar of the sea of faith. And and that was of course written sort And and that was of course written sort And and that was of course written sort of, you know, in the 1860s and so it was of, you know, in the 1860s and so it was of, you know, in the 1860s and so it was very much a time even then when the very much a time even then when the very much a time even then when the poets and thinkers were seeing, I think, poets and thinkers were seeing, I think, poets and thinkers were seeing, I think, that faith was withdrawing to be that faith was withdrawing to be that faith was withdrawing to be replaced by something else. Arguably replaced by something else. Arguably replaced by something else. Arguably science, science, science, technology. This was, you know, an era technology. This was, you know, an era technology. This was, you know, an era of huge technological progress. You had of huge technological progress. You had of huge technological progress. You had the Isambard Kingdom Brunel, you know, the Isambard Kingdom Brunel, you know, the Isambard Kingdom Brunel, you know, constructing railways and bridges. You constructing railways and bridges. You constructing railways and bridges. You had modern temples really to science. had modern temples really to science. had modern temples really to science. Natural history museums going up all Natural history museums going up all Natural history museums going up all over the UK. over the UK. over the UK. And if you go to one, say Oxford's And if you go to one, say Oxford's And if you go to one, say Oxford's Natural History Museum, it really is Natural History Museum, it really is Natural History Museum, it really is designed as a church. I mean you you can designed as a church. I mean you you can designed as a church. I mean you you can walk in and it's essentially designed as walk in and it's essentially designed as walk in and it's essentially designed as a Gothic church but of course it's it's a Gothic church but of course it's it's a Gothic church but of course it's it's object of worship is science. And and object of worship is science. And and object of worship is science. And and that was really the direction I think that was really the direction I think that was really the direction I think that that everything was going in in that that everything was going in in that that everything was going in in that era and so that era and so that era and so And so whether it was stated explicitly And so whether it was stated explicitly And so whether it was stated explicitly or not, I think there was that sense in or not, I think there was that sense in or not, I think there was that sense in which which which religion religion religion and the kind of de facto place that and the kind of de facto place that and the kind of de facto place that Christianity had in the West began to be Christianity had in the West began to be Christianity had in the West began to be questioned in all kinds of ways and that questioned in all kinds of ways and that questioned in all kinds of ways and that was simply happening at the time. Though was simply happening at the time. Though was simply happening at the time. Though arguably this was coming downstream arguably this was coming downstream arguably this was coming downstream obviously of the enlightenment a century obviously of the enlightenment a century obviously of the enlightenment a century or two earlier where you would already or two earlier where you would already or two earlier where you would already started to see reason and science and started to see reason and science and started to see reason and science and the rationalists start to essentially the rationalists start to essentially the rationalists start to essentially replace the ways in which we often knew replace the ways in which we often knew replace the ways in which we often knew things or understood the world with a things or understood the world with a things or understood the world with a purely rational analytical approach to purely rational analytical approach to purely rational analytical approach to life. And and that in a sense

life. And and that in a sense life. And and that in a sense sort of crept into the church in all sort of crept into the church in all sort of crept into the church in all kinds of ways and and arguably a lot of kinds of ways and and arguably a lot of kinds of ways and and arguably a lot of modern Protestantism brought with it a modern Protestantism brought with it a modern Protestantism brought with it a lot of that enlightenment thinking and lot of that enlightenment thinking and lot of that enlightenment thinking and and centered the kind of exposition, if and centered the kind of exposition, if and centered the kind of exposition, if you like, logically of the word over the you like, logically of the word over the you like, logically of the word over the more mystical aspects of sacramental more mystical aspects of sacramental more mystical aspects of sacramental theology and so on that that many other theology and so on that that many other theology and so on that that many other church traditions have majored in church traditions have majored in church traditions have majored in historically. And so there's a sense in historically. And so there's a sense in historically. And so there's a sense in which even the church itself started to which even the church itself started to which even the church itself started to play arguably by the rules of reason and play arguably by the rules of reason and play arguably by the rules of reason and enlightenment and science and so on. Not enlightenment and science and so on. Not enlightenment and science and so on. Not that there's anything wrong with those that there's anything wrong with those that there's anything wrong with those things per se but I think the issue is things per se but I think the issue is things per se but I think the issue is that they started to to kind of that they started to to kind of that they started to to kind of become embedded in culture in a way become embedded in culture in a way become embedded in culture in a way where, where, where, you know, 150 years later you can have you know, 150 years later you can have you know, 150 years later you can have someone like Richard Dawkins sort of someone like Richard Dawkins sort of someone like Richard Dawkins sort of almost completely ignore the fact that almost completely ignore the fact that almost completely ignore the fact that actually science essentially has actually science essentially has actually science essentially has Christian origins and simply say, well, Christian origins and simply say, well, Christian origins and simply say, well, we don't need that anymore. We have no we don't need that anymore. We have no we don't need that anymore. We have no need of that hypothesis, Christianity or need of that hypothesis, Christianity or need of that hypothesis, Christianity or faith because we now have science. It faith because we now have science. It faith because we now have science. It it's kind of a it answers everything. It it's kind of a it answers everything. It it's kind of a it answers everything. It answers all our questions. And so I answers all our questions. And so I answers all our questions. And so I think that's that's what you're seeing think that's that's what you're seeing think that's that's what you're seeing in the 19th century, the beginnings of in the 19th century, the beginnings of in the 19th century, the beginnings of that that that progression that will eventually lead to progression that will eventually lead to progression that will eventually lead to what is essentially what is essentially what is essentially secular Europe, secular West, secular secular Europe, secular West, secular secular Europe, secular West, secular UK.

UK. UK. Well, this is why I was kind of Well, this is why I was kind of Well, this is why I was kind of interested to have the conversation with interested to have the conversation with interested to have the conversation with you because, you know, we do a little you because, you know, we do a little you because, you know, we do a little bit of history from time to time on the bit of history from time to time on the bit of history from time to time on the show but show but show but not a ton and what was interesting to me not a ton and what was interesting to me not a ton and what was interesting to me is exactly where you went with that. is exactly where you went with that. is exactly where you went with that. Like we talk about the enlightenment Like we talk about the enlightenment Like we talk about the enlightenment rationalist thinking, etc. etc. rationalist thinking, etc. etc. rationalist thinking, etc. etc. Elements of that really still define Elements of that really still define Elements of that really still define 21st century evangelical thinking. Do 21st century evangelical thinking. Do 21st century evangelical thinking. Do they not? If so, could you trace out they not? If so, could you trace out they not? If so, could you trace out some of that? Like some of that? Like some of that? Like how would people who maybe don't have how would people who maybe don't have how would people who maybe don't have the history background, you know, I the history background, you know, I the history background, you know, I think I think the more we understand think I think the more we understand think I think the more we understand about our context, the more we about our context, the more we about our context, the more we understand about our future potentially. understand about our future potentially. understand about our future potentially. Yeah, right? Yeah, right? Yeah, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So how did that play Absolutely. Yeah. So how did that play Absolutely. Yeah. So how did that play out like in our lifetime? The the the out like in our lifetime? The the the out like in our lifetime? The the the rationalist enlightenment rationalist enlightenment rationalist enlightenment thinking, how has that informed our thinking, how has that informed our thinking, how has that informed our understanding of Christianity in this understanding of Christianity in this understanding of Christianity in this generation still? generation still? generation still? I I think it's come through in in all I I think it's come through in in all I I think it's come through in in all manner of ways. I I think in a sense manner of ways. I I think in a sense manner of ways. I I think in a sense secular materialism has in many ways secular materialism has in many ways secular materialism has in many ways become the background hum of of a lot of become the background hum of of a lot of become the background hum of of a lot of our culture anyway and so that's it's our culture anyway and so that's it's our culture anyway and so that's it's come through the academy and it's it's come through the academy and it's it's come through the academy and it's it's therefore I think it it naturally therefore I think it it naturally therefore I think it it naturally started to started to started to make itself felt in theological sort of, make itself felt in theological sort of, make itself felt in theological sort of, uh know, uh institutions, seminaries, uh know, uh institutions, seminaries, uh know, uh institutions, seminaries, and so on. And you you inevitably had uh and so on. And you you inevitably had uh and so on. And you you inevitably had uh the the growth of the more kind of the the growth of the more kind of the the growth of the more kind of progressive liberal forms of theology, progressive liberal forms of theology, progressive liberal forms of theology, especially in the late 19th early 20th especially in the late 19th early 20th especially in the late 19th early 20th century, when people started to take century, when people started to take century, when people started to take scripture and start to examine it, you scripture and start to examine it, you scripture and start to examine it, you know, in in in a sense as purely know, in in in a sense as purely know, in in in a sense as purely historical data. Now, again, nothing historical data. Now, again, nothing historical data. Now, again, nothing wrong with that in principle, but it's

wrong with that in principle, but it's wrong with that in principle, but it's when you start to see scripture only in when you start to see scripture only in when you start to see scripture only in that way that that you can start to sort that way that that you can start to sort that way that that you can start to sort of essentially do what some of those, of essentially do what some of those, of essentially do what some of those, you know, um German theologians did when you know, um German theologians did when you know, um German theologians did when they started to say, "Well, we we just they started to say, "Well, we we just they started to say, "Well, we we just can't really know anything about the can't really know anything about the can't really know anything about the history of Jesus. We just don't know, history of Jesus. We just don't know, history of Jesus. We just don't know, and so on. So, we're going to treat and so on. So, we're going to treat and so on. So, we're going to treat we're going to sort of as it were treat we're going to sort of as it were treat we're going to sort of as it were treat this in purely spiritual terms, and this in purely spiritual terms, and this in purely spiritual terms, and we're not um but we're going to doubt we're not um but we're going to doubt we're not um but we're going to doubt ultimately whether we can know anything ultimately whether we can know anything ultimately whether we can know anything of the real story and history of Jesus." of the real story and history of Jesus." of the real story and history of Jesus." And And And And and that was, you know, that turn, And and that was, you know, that turn, And and that was, you know, that turn, if you like, to that more kind of if you like, to that more kind of if you like, to that more kind of liberal um sort of uh biblical criticism liberal um sort of uh biblical criticism liberal um sort of uh biblical criticism uh of the late 19th and early 20th uh of the late 19th and early 20th uh of the late 19th and early 20th century, it had all kinds of ripple century, it had all kinds of ripple century, it had all kinds of ripple effects, I think, in the in the wider effects, I think, in the in the wider effects, I think, in the in the wider Protestant church. And it it it led, Protestant church. And it it it led, Protestant church. And it it it led, arguably, to what you might call the the arguably, to what you might call the the arguably, to what you might call the the increasing liberalization of mainline increasing liberalization of mainline increasing liberalization of mainline Protestant denom- denominations, whether Protestant denom- denominations, whether Protestant denom- denominations, whether it be Episcopalians in in the US or the it be Episcopalians in in the US or the it be Episcopalians in in the US or the that wing of the Anglican church in the that wing of the Anglican church in the that wing of the Anglican church in the UK. And arguably, you've seen that UK. And arguably, you've seen that UK. And arguably, you've seen that happen across multiple denominations in happen across multiple denominations in happen across multiple denominations in the West. the West. the West. Leading to the point where essentially, Leading to the point where essentially, Leading to the point where essentially, I think, uh a lot of those denominations I think, uh a lot of those denominations I think, uh a lot of those denominations began to see themselves more as um began to see themselves more as um began to see themselves more as um tools for for social progress and and tools for for social progress and and tools for for social progress and and seeing themselves, if you like, as as seeing themselves, if you like, as as seeing themselves, if you like, as as there to deliver there to deliver there to deliver certain forms of social justice. Again, certain forms of social justice. Again, certain forms of social justice. Again, not that there's anything wrong with not that there's anything wrong with not that there's anything wrong with social justice, but when it becomes the social justice, but when it becomes the social justice, but when it becomes the um the core defining principle, if you um the core defining principle, if you um the core defining principle, if you like, of the work you're doing, rather like, of the work you're doing, rather like, of the work you're doing, rather than a kind of real investment in the than a kind of real investment in the than a kind of real investment in the the supernatural belief in Jesus and the the supernatural belief in Jesus and the the supernatural belief in Jesus and the gospel and Christianity, gospel and Christianity, gospel and Christianity, when it becomes inverted in that way, I

when it becomes inverted in that way, I when it becomes inverted in that way, I think that's essentially what think that's essentially what think that's essentially what essentially led to the the gradual drift essentially led to the the gradual drift essentially led to the the gradual drift of those denominations. of those denominations. of those denominations. And the way in which ultimately they And the way in which ultimately they And the way in which ultimately they started to lose members because they started to lose members because they started to lose members because they Christianity became something different Christianity became something different Christianity became something different to the to the core it had had up to that to the to the core it had had up to that to the to the core it had had up to that point. Well, I think that's helpful. You point. Well, I think that's helpful. You point. Well, I think that's helpful. You know, if you look at the theological know, if you look at the theological know, if you look at the theological left, so to speak, moderate left, you're left, so to speak, moderate left, you're left, so to speak, moderate left, you're right. It took from German higher right. It took from German higher right. It took from German higher criticism, etc. That whole idea, "Well, criticism, etc. That whole idea, "Well, criticism, etc. That whole idea, "Well, we're not sure about the resurrection. we're not sure about the resurrection. we're not sure about the resurrection. We don't We're not going to take the We don't We're not going to take the We don't We're not going to take the Bible too literally. Uh but we are all Bible too literally. Uh but we are all Bible too literally. Uh but we are all about justice, and we are all about about justice, and we are all about about justice, and we are all about compassion and kindness." So, that kind compassion and kindness." So, that kind compassion and kindness." So, that kind of happened on the left, and it led to of happened on the left, and it led to of happened on the left, and it led to the decline of mainline church in the the decline of mainline church in the the decline of mainline church in the 20th century. 20th century. 20th century. I wonder, and and feel free to agree, I wonder, and and feel free to agree, I wonder, and and feel free to agree, disagree, but on the right, it led to disagree, but on the right, it led to disagree, but on the right, it led to hyper-rationalistic, hyper-rationalistic, hyper-rationalistic, "I will prove to you through the "I will prove to you through the "I will prove to you through the inerrancy of scripture that creation inerrancy of scripture that creation inerrancy of scripture that creation happened in six literal days. I will happened in six literal days. I will happened in six literal days. I will prove to you," you know, that kind of prove to you," you know, that kind of prove to you," you know, that kind of didactic rationalist thought that was didactic rationalist thought that was didactic rationalist thought that was really removed from a charismatic or really removed from a charismatic or really removed from a charismatic or spiritual experience.

spiritual experience. spiritual experience. Right? That's the agree. Yeah. Right? That's the agree. Yeah. Right? That's the agree. Yeah. So, yeah, trace that out a little bit So, yeah, trace that out a little bit So, yeah, trace that out a little bit cuz we're all products of people who cuz we're all products of people who cuz we're all products of people who came before us, and I think we don't came before us, and I think we don't came before us, and I think we don't think about that enough. think about that enough. think about that enough. Well, I think you've put it very well. I Well, I think you've put it very well. I Well, I think you've put it very well. I I think there was this sort of equal and I think there was this sort of equal and I think there was this sort of equal and opposite error, arguably, on both sides opposite error, arguably, on both sides opposite error, arguably, on both sides in the way that they in the way that they in the way that they came to embrace a kind of modern came to embrace a kind of modern came to embrace a kind of modern assumptions uh and and, if you like, assumptions uh and and, if you like, assumptions uh and and, if you like, that rationalistic approach to to that rationalistic approach to to that rationalistic approach to to scripture and the Bible. And and yes, I scripture and the Bible. And and yes, I scripture and the Bible. And and yes, I mean, I've I've had many a conversation mean, I've I've had many a conversation mean, I've I've had many a conversation with with N.T. Wright, who's, you know, with with N.T. Wright, who's, you know, with with N.T. Wright, who's, you know, often bangs this drum and says the often bangs this drum and says the often bangs this drum and says the problem with uh modernity was that problem with uh modernity was that problem with uh modernity was that actually a lot of, you know, actually a lot of, you know, actually a lot of, you know, evangelicals, especially in America in evangelicals, especially in America in evangelicals, especially in America in the early 20th century, started to yeah, the early 20th century, started to yeah, the early 20th century, started to yeah, trying to kind of fit scripture and trying to kind of fit scripture and trying to kind of fit scripture and Christianity into this modern mold, Christianity into this modern mold, Christianity into this modern mold, essentially trying to use the tools of essentially trying to use the tools of essentially trying to use the tools of reason to to sort of reason to to sort of reason to to sort of coerce scripture into sort of forms of coerce scripture into sort of forms of coerce scripture into sort of forms of thinking that it wasn't originally thinking that it wasn't originally thinking that it wasn't originally designed for in that sense. So, as you designed for in that sense. So, as you designed for in that sense. So, as you say, the arguably the the rise of young say, the arguably the the rise of young say, the arguably the the rise of young earth creationism was a earth creationism was a earth creationism was a an early 20th century phenomenon. It an early 20th century phenomenon. It an early 20th century phenomenon. It didn't really exist in in that form didn't really exist in in that form didn't really exist in in that form before then. And to that extent, I think before then. And to that extent, I think before then. And to that extent, I think that's partly because that's partly because that's partly because it is um it is um it is um Christians of that era trying to take on Christians of that era trying to take on Christians of that era trying to take on these, you know, analytical these, you know, analytical these, you know, analytical philosophers, rationalist scientists on philosophers, rationalist scientists on philosophers, rationalist scientists on their own turf, playing by their rules.

their own turf, playing by their rules. their own turf, playing by their rules. And and actually, all you end up doing And and actually, all you end up doing And and actually, all you end up doing is kind of turning the Bible into is kind of turning the Bible into is kind of turning the Bible into something it was never meant to be in something it was never meant to be in something it was never meant to be in the first place. And so so I think I the first place. And so so I think I the first place. And so so I think I think all of that happened, and it's all think all of that happened, and it's all think all of that happened, and it's all it all plays into the reasons why in it all plays into the reasons why in it all plays into the reasons why in many ways, the church started to look many ways, the church started to look many ways, the church started to look rather rather rather um irrelevant in many parts of culture. um irrelevant in many parts of culture. um irrelevant in many parts of culture. Either it looked like it was Either it looked like it was Either it looked like it was sort of some sort of conservative sort of some sort of conservative sort of some sort of conservative reactionary force against science and reactionary force against science and reactionary force against science and progress, or or it became, as I say, progress, or or it became, as I say, progress, or or it became, as I say, somewhat irrelevant by not appearing to somewhat irrelevant by not appearing to somewhat irrelevant by not appearing to have any real power or anything have any real power or anything have any real power or anything meaningful to say outside of the normal meaningful to say outside of the normal meaningful to say outside of the normal platitudes of what already existed in platitudes of what already existed in platitudes of what already existed in society in terms of so the social good society in terms of so the social good society in terms of so the social good and so on that it could do. Um and so on that it could do. Um and so on that it could do. Um and and in many ways, I I think it's and and in many ways, I I think it's and and in many ways, I I think it's when the church has often played into when the church has often played into when the church has often played into social norms or the the, you know, the social norms or the the, you know, the social norms or the the, you know, the the fashions of the day that that it the fashions of the day that that it the fashions of the day that that it often it often has that consequence. Uh often it often has that consequence. Uh often it often has that consequence. Uh what's that famous phrase by G.K. what's that famous phrase by G.K. what's that famous phrase by G.K. Chesterton? The the the church that Chesterton? The the the church that Chesterton? The the the church that marries the spirit of this age is often marries the spirit of this age is often marries the spirit of this age is often made a widow in the next. And and I made a widow in the next. And and I made a widow in the next. And and I think that that's true to be true.

think that that's true to be true. think that that's true to be true. You know, it's an interesting thing. I You know, it's an interesting thing. I You know, it's an interesting thing. I hadn't quite framed it that way, but the hadn't quite framed it that way, but the hadn't quite framed it that way, but the idea that when you play by their rules, idea that when you play by their rules, idea that when you play by their rules, the left played by the rules of the left played by the rules of the left played by the rules of progressivism and the higher criticism, progressivism and the higher criticism, progressivism and the higher criticism, etc. etc. The right played the rule by etc. etc. The right played the rule by etc. etc. The right played the rule by tried to play the rules of rationalism. tried to play the rules of rationalism. tried to play the rules of rationalism. You know, apologetics, in many ways, You know, apologetics, in many ways, You know, apologetics, in many ways, still follows that mindset that I will still follows that mindset that I will still follows that mindset that I will empirically prove to you empirically prove to you empirically prove to you that the Bible is true. And sometimes, that the Bible is true. And sometimes, that the Bible is true. And sometimes, you know what? It works. People get it. you know what? It works. People get it. you know what? It works. People get it. But what are what are the inherent But what are what are the inherent But what are what are the inherent dangers of adopting dangers of adopting dangers of adopting a framework that someone else has a framework that someone else has a framework that someone else has constructed to try to fit your faith constructed to try to fit your faith constructed to try to fit your faith into it? into it? into it? I mean, I speak really to myself here, I mean, I speak really to myself here, I mean, I speak really to myself here, Carey, because I am an apologist, and Carey, because I am an apologist, and Carey, because I am an apologist, and that's really that's really that's really where where my faith sort of came alive where where my faith sort of came alive where where my faith sort of came alive at an intellectual level was when I at an intellectual level was when I at an intellectual level was when I discovered apologetics and the rational discovered apologetics and the rational discovered apologetics and the rational defense of Christian faith. And and I defense of Christian faith. And and I defense of Christian faith. And and I don't want to do it down in the sense don't want to do it down in the sense don't want to do it down in the sense that I think that's always been an that I think that's always been an that I think that's always been an important part of Christian witness, and important part of Christian witness, and important part of Christian witness, and you find it there in the New Testament you find it there in the New Testament you find it there in the New Testament as well. Um I think the danger is when as well. Um I think the danger is when as well. Um I think the danger is when you you only so that you see that as you you only so that you see that as you you only so that you see that as somehow the only tool in your toolkit, somehow the only tool in your toolkit, somehow the only tool in your toolkit, and and that is the only way in which and and that is the only way in which and and that is the only way in which you can access truth and so on. And it you can access truth and so on. And it you can access truth and so on. And it can, of course, breed a certain kind of can, of course, breed a certain kind of can, of course, breed a certain kind of arrogance, and can become a, you know, arrogance, and can become a, you know, arrogance, and can become a, you know, form of idolatry in itself when we think form of idolatry in itself when we think form of idolatry in itself when we think that we can essentially arrive at the that we can essentially arrive at the that we can essentially arrive at the truth of Christianity and persuade truth of Christianity and persuade truth of Christianity and persuade everyone purely through the means of of everyone purely through the means of of everyone purely through the means of of reason and logic and so on. And so, for reason and logic and so on. And so, for reason and logic and so on. And so, for me, that's that's the great danger, and me, that's that's the great danger, and me, that's that's the great danger, and I I've seen many an apologist, as it I I've seen many an apologist, as it I I've seen many an apologist, as it were, were, were, I I I guess become too invested in

I I I guess become too invested in I I I guess become too invested in apologetics, when in inevitably, there apologetics, when in inevitably, there apologetics, when in inevitably, there are all kinds of other things going on are all kinds of other things going on are all kinds of other things going on when it comes to the reasons people when it comes to the reasons people when it comes to the reasons people adopt or reject faith. So, I think there adopt or reject faith. So, I think there adopt or reject faith. So, I think there is that danger, and I think apologetics is that danger, and I think apologetics is that danger, and I think apologetics can sometimes play into that can sometimes play into that can sometimes play into that hyper-rationalist scientistic way of hyper-rationalist scientistic way of hyper-rationalist scientistic way of looking looking looking at the world and looking at faith. And at the world and looking at faith. And at the world and looking at faith. And to that extent, I I do want to encourage to that extent, I I do want to encourage to that extent, I I do want to encourage apologists to be wary of doing that apologists to be wary of doing that apologists to be wary of doing that because because because too often, I think, especially, you too often, I think, especially, you too often, I think, especially, you know, when the new atheists came along know, when the new atheists came along know, when the new atheists came along and started to make sort of their claims and started to make sort of their claims and started to make sort of their claims about science having buried God and that about science having buried God and that about science having buried God and that sort of thing, there was quite rightly sort of thing, there was quite rightly sort of thing, there was quite rightly an important pushback by many churches, an important pushback by many churches, an important pushback by many churches, and apologists wanted to show that that and apologists wanted to show that that and apologists wanted to show that that that was an overreach, that that was a that was an overreach, that that was a that was an overreach, that that was a misunderstanding of what science and misunderstanding of what science and misunderstanding of what science and what faith is as well. But at the same what faith is as well. But at the same what faith is as well. But at the same time, I think when you try to, as it time, I think when you try to, as it time, I think when you try to, as it were, try to prove God, you know, the were, try to prove God, you know, the were, try to prove God, you know, the atheists were essentially saying, "I atheists were essentially saying, "I atheists were essentially saying, "I won't believe in God unless you give me won't believe in God unless you give me won't believe in God unless you give me some sort of scientific formula or some sort of scientific formula or some sort of scientific formula or philosophical proof for God." And the philosophical proof for God." And the philosophical proof for God." And the problem is, if you if you say, "Okay, problem is, if you if you say, "Okay, problem is, if you if you say, "Okay, well, I'm going to try and prove God by well, I'm going to try and prove God by well, I'm going to try and prove God by science. I'm going to try and prove God science. I'm going to try and prove God science. I'm going to try and prove God by philosophy," you're essentially by philosophy," you're essentially by philosophy," you're essentially playing by the rules that they've playing by the rules that they've playing by the rules that they've already set. And and that that is a already set. And and that that is a already set. And and that that is a problem because, as I say, problem because, as I say, problem because, as I say, the ways in which we actually understand the ways in which we actually understand the ways in which we actually understand faith and encounter God obviously faith and encounter God obviously faith and encounter God obviously transcend simply those particular ways.

transcend simply those particular ways. transcend simply those particular ways. And if we say if we make it appear to And if we say if we make it appear to And if we say if we make it appear to our atheist counterpart that this is a our atheist counterpart that this is a our atheist counterpart that this is a valid way of determining the truth of valid way of determining the truth of valid way of determining the truth of Christianity, then inevitably, I think, Christianity, then inevitably, I think, Christianity, then inevitably, I think, you're going to be on thin ice because you're going to be on thin ice because you're going to be on thin ice because if if if the scientific consensus changes, or if the scientific consensus changes, or if the scientific consensus changes, or if they simply find another objection, then they simply find another objection, then they simply find another objection, then they will have thought, "Well, I've they will have thought, "Well, I've they will have thought, "Well, I've dispensed with that. I have no need of dispensed with that. I have no need of dispensed with that. I have no need of that hypothesis." And and I think And that hypothesis." And and I think And that hypothesis." And and I think And so, while I'm I'm not saying don't do so, while I'm I'm not saying don't do so, while I'm I'm not saying don't do apologetics, cuz for some people, it apologetics, cuz for some people, it apologetics, cuz for some people, it really is important to grapple with the really is important to grapple with the really is important to grapple with the intellectual side of Christianity, and I intellectual side of Christianity, and I intellectual side of Christianity, and I think there is a a long and important think there is a a long and important think there is a a long and important history for that. history for that. history for that. To give someone the impression that To give someone the impression that To give someone the impression that that's all that's involved would would, that's all that's involved would would, that's all that's involved would would, of course, be be wrong as well. of course, be be wrong as well. of course, be be wrong as well. What is your approach to apologetics? What is your approach to apologetics? What is your approach to apologetics? How would you define it? How would you define it? How would you define it? Well, I would simply I suppose define it Well, I would simply I suppose define it Well, I would simply I suppose define it the way that the the Greek word does, the way that the the Greek word does, the way that the the Greek word does, apologia, which is to make a defense of apologia, which is to make a defense of apologia, which is to make a defense of something. something. something. And in that sense, all you're being And in that sense, all you're being And in that sense, all you're being asked to do is what it says in 1 Peter asked to do is what it says in 1 Peter asked to do is what it says in 1 Peter 3:15, which is, "Always be ready to give 3:15, which is, "Always be ready to give 3:15, which is, "Always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you about an answer to anyone who asks you about an answer to anyone who asks you about the reason for the hope that you have.

the reason for the hope that you have. the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and But do this with gentleness and But do this with gentleness and respect." And to that extent, respect." And to that extent, respect." And to that extent, apologetics is simply about when we're apologetics is simply about when we're apologetics is simply about when we're asked, being given reason giving reasons asked, being given reason giving reasons asked, being given reason giving reasons for the faith that we hold. Um for the faith that we hold. Um for the faith that we hold. Um Now, that's frequently in in apologetic Now, that's frequently in in apologetic Now, that's frequently in in apologetic circles, you know, comes back to circles, you know, comes back to circles, you know, comes back to philosophy and philosophy and philosophy and natural theology, evidences from the natural theology, evidences from the natural theology, evidences from the universe. And I I think there's a I universe. And I I think there's a I universe. And I I think there's a I think there's a place for those. I think think there's a place for those. I think think there's a place for those. I think there's a place for saying, "When we there's a place for saying, "When we there's a place for saying, "When we look outside at the universe, it seems look outside at the universe, it seems look outside at the universe, it seems to be pointing beyond itself." to be pointing beyond itself." to be pointing beyond itself." Um and I think that can be a helpful way Um and I think that can be a helpful way Um and I think that can be a helpful way in for many people who perhaps are more in for many people who perhaps are more in for many people who perhaps are more scientifically sort of literate or or scientifically sort of literate or or scientifically sort of literate or or engaged, and so on. But as I say, I engaged, and so on. But as I say, I engaged, and so on. But as I say, I wouldn't want it to be the only thing. wouldn't want it to be the only thing. wouldn't want it to be the only thing. And the important thing for me with And the important thing for me with And the important thing for me with apologetics is to also recognize apologetics is to also recognize apologetics is to also recognize that that that um it can be as much about the um it can be as much about the um it can be as much about the imagination as about, if you like that imagination as about, if you like that imagination as about, if you like that very left brained activity of of giving very left brained activity of of giving very left brained activity of of giving logic and reason. And some of the best logic and reason. And some of the best logic and reason. And some of the best the most of the best apologists have the most of the best apologists have the most of the best apologists have actually done both. They've they've actually done both. They've they've actually done both. They've they've they've co-opted the right and the the they've co-opted the right and the the they've co-opted the right and the the left hemispheres of their brain. The left hemispheres of their brain. The left hemispheres of their brain. The imaginative artistic aspect to bring imaginative artistic aspect to bring imaginative artistic aspect to bring light to that scientific and rational light to that scientific and rational light to that scientific and rational enterprise. So C.S. Lewis was masterful enterprise. So C.S. Lewis was masterful enterprise. So C.S. Lewis was masterful at doing this because he was so good at at doing this because he was so good at at doing this because he was so good at doing rational apologetics, you know, doing rational apologetics, you know, doing rational apologetics, you know, The problem of pain, mere Christianity, The problem of pain, mere Christianity, The problem of pain, mere Christianity, they're classics of of intellectual they're classics of of intellectual they're classics of of intellectual apologetics. But the way he brought it apologetics. But the way he brought it apologetics. But the way he brought it across was also very imaginative in the across was also very imaginative in the across was also very imaginative in the terms of phrases he used, in the terms of phrases he used, in the terms of phrases he used, in the analogies he was able to to bring about, analogies he was able to to bring about, analogies he was able to to bring about, and of course through his imaginative

and of course through his imaginative and of course through his imaginative fiction as well. fiction as well. fiction as well. The Chronicles of Narnia arguably have The Chronicles of Narnia arguably have The Chronicles of Narnia arguably have done much more than his his apologetics done much more than his his apologetics done much more than his his apologetics works to bring people into an awareness works to bring people into an awareness works to bring people into an awareness of Christianity. But the apologetics is of Christianity. But the apologetics is of Christianity. But the apologetics is bubbling away just below the surface if bubbling away just below the surface if bubbling away just below the surface if if you're reading Narnia. So it's not if you're reading Narnia. So it's not if you're reading Narnia. So it's not that that he sort of threw it away that that he sort of threw it away that that he sort of threw it away thinking we we must just deal with the thinking we we must just deal with the thinking we we must just deal with the imagination. It's The imagination is if imagination. It's The imagination is if imagination. It's The imagination is if you like gives people permission you like gives people permission you like gives people permission to imagine a world in which Christianity to imagine a world in which Christianity to imagine a world in which Christianity is true. And then Lewis is simply is true. And then Lewis is simply is true. And then Lewis is simply saying, "Well, what if it is true?" saying, "Well, what if it is true?" saying, "Well, what if it is true?" And and and I think that's that's that's And and and I think that's that's that's And and and I think that's that's that's the best approach to apologetics to to the best approach to apologetics to to the best approach to apologetics to to not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, abandon the imagination but to to infuse abandon the imagination but to to infuse abandon the imagination but to to infuse our apologetics with it. Then it can be our apologetics with it. Then it can be our apologetics with it. Then it can be comprehensive, not just one-sided, all comprehensive, not just one-sided, all comprehensive, not just one-sided, all logical or otherwise. I would be before logical or otherwise. I would be before logical or otherwise. I would be before we totally leave history, um we totally leave history, um we totally leave history, um I always enjoy talking to people from I always enjoy talking to people from I always enjoy talking to people from the UK the UK the UK because I spend most of my time in the because I spend most of my time in the because I spend most of my time in the United States. I live in Canada. And I United States. I live in Canada. And I United States. I live in Canada. And I had someone say to me last week like, had someone say to me last week like, had someone say to me last week like, "You're from the future because you see "You're from the future because you see "You're from the future because you see what's happening in America because it what's happening in America because it what's happening in America because it happened in your country when you were happened in your country when you were happened in your country when you were young." And I'm like, "Yes." And then I young." And I'm like, "Yes." And then I young." And I'm like, "Yes." And then I talked to Europeans and it's like and it talked to Europeans and it's like and it talked to Europeans and it's like and it happened in your country before I was happened in your country before I was happened in your country before I was born. So I'm I'm very interested as sort born. So I'm I'm very interested as sort born. So I'm I'm very interested as sort of this cultural broker, this unique of this cultural broker, this unique of this cultural broker, this unique role I get to play. What parallels do role I get to play. What parallels do role I get to play. What parallels do you see you see you see between what happened in England in the between what happened in England in the between what happened in England in the 20th century to let's just say church 20th century to let's just say church 20th century to let's just say church and church attendance and church attendance and church attendance and what's happening in America today?

and what's happening in America today? and what's happening in America today? What are what are you seeing there? What are what are you seeing there? What are what are you seeing there? Well, obviously I I see what you see, Well, obviously I I see what you see, Well, obviously I I see what you see, which is that which is that which is that there is a similar decline going on in there is a similar decline going on in there is a similar decline going on in the USA as the sort of decline that we the USA as the sort of decline that we the USA as the sort of decline that we saw in the UK, especially sort of from saw in the UK, especially sort of from saw in the UK, especially sort of from the '60s, '70s onwards. the '60s, '70s onwards. the '60s, '70s onwards. And arguably that is in a sense, you And arguably that is in a sense, you And arguably that is in a sense, you know, they often say the USA is just know, they often say the USA is just know, they often say the USA is just sort of 20 or 30 years behind the curve sort of 20 or 30 years behind the curve sort of 20 or 30 years behind the curve if you like that the UK is is part of. if you like that the UK is is part of. if you like that the UK is is part of. Having said that, I think that the Having said that, I think that the Having said that, I think that the situation's been far worse even in other situation's been far worse even in other situation's been far worse even in other parts of Europe than the UK. parts of Europe than the UK. parts of Europe than the UK. You look at France and other parts of You look at France and other parts of You look at France and other parts of Europe. It's actually that Even the Europe. It's actually that Even the Europe. It's actually that Even the Netherlands where I have background. And Netherlands where I have background. And Netherlands where I have background. And and and so it's it's even the UK and and so it's it's even the UK and and so it's it's even the UK arguably isn't as far along that that arguably isn't as far along that that arguably isn't as far along that that secularization journey as as other parts secularization journey as as other parts secularization journey as as other parts of Europe. Um what why is that? I think of Europe. Um what why is that? I think of Europe. Um what why is that? I think that obviously the USA has its own that obviously the USA has its own that obviously the USA has its own unique history and I think partly unique history and I think partly unique history and I think partly because of the way it was founded, because of the way it was founded, because of the way it was founded, there just has been a much stronger sort there just has been a much stronger sort there just has been a much stronger sort of sense of importance of religion as a of sense of importance of religion as a of sense of importance of religion as a kind of front facing thing. And perhaps kind of front facing thing. And perhaps kind of front facing thing. And perhaps that has that has that has allowed it to sort of have a certain allowed it to sort of have a certain allowed it to sort of have a certain kind of longevity that that hasn't seen kind of longevity that that hasn't seen kind of longevity that that hasn't seen it swept aside quite as quickly as as it it swept aside quite as quickly as as it it swept aside quite as quickly as as it was in in part many parts of Europe and was in in part many parts of Europe and was in in part many parts of Europe and the UK.

the UK. the UK. I I I I think in in in in a funny way I I I I think in in in in a funny way I I I I think in in in in a funny way though, the separation of church and though, the separation of church and though, the separation of church and state state state in the USA sort of helped potentially to in the USA sort of helped potentially to in the USA sort of helped potentially to stem stem stem that that the decline. that that the decline. that that the decline. Because actually it it it can actually Because actually it it it can actually Because actually it it it can actually um um um be quite a problem. be quite a problem. be quite a problem. In a funny way in the UK, I In a funny way in the UK, I In a funny way in the UK, I I think when people are sometimes I think when people are sometimes I think when people are sometimes exposed to a exposed to a exposed to a sort of nominal sort of nominal sort of nominal state type of religion that's kind of state type of religion that's kind of state type of religion that's kind of just all around them, it it can kind of just all around them, it it can kind of just all around them, it it can kind of inoculate you against the real thing. inoculate you against the real thing. inoculate you against the real thing. You know, You know, You know, when you're given a a jab for a disease, when you're given a a jab for a disease, when you're given a a jab for a disease, you're often given a a small amount of you're often given a a small amount of you're often given a a small amount of the disease to inoculate you against the the disease to inoculate you against the the disease to inoculate you against the real thing. And I think sometimes that real thing. And I think sometimes that real thing. And I think sometimes that happens happens happens in countries that have got this, you in countries that have got this, you in countries that have got this, you know, state sort of religion, it's know, state sort of religion, it's know, state sort of religion, it's because you've received a small dose of because you've received a small dose of because you've received a small dose of it perhaps in it perhaps in it perhaps in school or or wherever, it can actually school or or wherever, it can actually school or or wherever, it can actually make you think that you you know what it make you think that you you know what it make you think that you you know what it is and you can basically ignore it or is and you can basically ignore it or is and you can basically ignore it or disregard it later on in life. And and I disregard it later on in life. And and I disregard it later on in life. And and I I wonder sometimes whether that has I wonder sometimes whether that has I wonder sometimes whether that has almost happened in in parts of of the UK almost happened in in parts of of the UK almost happened in in parts of of the UK in in some respect. That's just a a sort in in some respect. That's just a a sort in in some respect. That's just a a sort of theory of my own in a way. Um of theory of my own in a way. Um of theory of my own in a way. Um honestly though, honestly though, honestly though, I I I think that now we're sort of I I I think that now we're sort of I I I think that now we're sort of catching up with each other to some catching up with each other to some catching up with each other to some extent because if you do look at the extent because if you do look at the extent because if you do look at the statistics, especially on the younger statistics, especially on the younger statistics, especially on the younger end, Gen Z and so on, end, Gen Z and so on, end, Gen Z and so on, um you are um you are um you are I think we're we're I think we're we're I think we're we're heading towards parity almost in both heading towards parity almost in both heading towards parity almost in both the UK and the USA in terms of the the UK and the USA in terms of the the UK and the USA in terms of the numbers you see there.

numbers you see there. numbers you see there. it's not that different. Yeah, it's not it's not that different. Yeah, it's not it's not that different. Yeah, it's not that different. What what's interesting that different. What what's interesting that different. What what's interesting to me in all of this is is that actually to me in all of this is is that actually to me in all of this is is that actually there's a lot of other things to tease there's a lot of other things to tease there's a lot of other things to tease out in this though because out in this though because out in this though because just as I would say sometimes the just as I would say sometimes the just as I would say sometimes the baggage of institutional religion can baggage of institutional religion can baggage of institutional religion can actually stop people from accessing the actually stop people from accessing the actually stop people from accessing the real thing. Sometimes having real thing. Sometimes having real thing. Sometimes having completely shed that baggage as we completely shed that baggage as we completely shed that baggage as we essentially have now, especially here in essentially have now, especially here in essentially have now, especially here in the UK among Gen Z, very unchurched, the UK among Gen Z, very unchurched, the UK among Gen Z, very unchurched, people who have really no idea of Bible people who have really no idea of Bible people who have really no idea of Bible stories or any kind of stories or any kind of stories or any kind of sort of were never taken to church as sort of were never taken to church as sort of were never taken to church as youngsters. Their parents didn't go. youngsters. Their parents didn't go. youngsters. Their parents didn't go. Their grandparents didn't go. Their grandparents didn't go. Their grandparents didn't go. And and in a funny way, And and in a funny way, And and in a funny way, the the statistics now seem to be the the statistics now seem to be the the statistics now seem to be telling us that that generation is the telling us that that generation is the telling us that that generation is the most open, interestingly. Even though most open, interestingly. Even though most open, interestingly. Even though they Yeah, they Yeah, they Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. exactly. exactly. reacting against anything. Yeah. And and reacting against anything. Yeah. And and reacting against anything. Yeah. And and and there's a strange kind of thing I and there's a strange kind of thing I and there's a strange kind of thing I think going on to some extent where think going on to some extent where think going on to some extent where uh uh uh it's it's only once you don't have any it's it's only once you don't have any it's it's only once you don't have any associations or baggage sometimes that associations or baggage sometimes that associations or baggage sometimes that there is sometimes an openness, you there is sometimes an openness, you there is sometimes an openness, you know. And that's why the new atheists, know. And that's why the new atheists, know. And that's why the new atheists, people like Richard Dawkins and people like Richard Dawkins and people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, they were all of Christopher Hitchens, they were all of Christopher Hitchens, they were all of that generation who that generation who that generation who had public school religion sort of had public school religion sort of had public school religion sort of thrust upon them and they rejected it thrust upon them and they rejected it thrust upon them and they rejected it because, you know, they they they they because, you know, they they they they because, you know, they they they they they didn't want it and and they felt it they didn't want it and and they felt it they didn't want it and and they felt it was, was, was, you know, uh suffocating and everything you know, uh suffocating and everything you know, uh suffocating and everything else.

else. else. Uh young many younger people just have Uh young many younger people just have Uh young many younger people just have never had that experience. And never had that experience. And never had that experience. And so for instance, I spoke recently to so for instance, I spoke recently to so for instance, I spoke recently to um some workers people who work with um some workers people who work with um some workers people who work with university students across the UK, Mhm. university students across the UK, Mhm. university students across the UK, Mhm. a Christian organization. And they're a Christian organization. And they're a Christian organization. And they're saying they're seeing more openness saying they're seeing more openness saying they're seeing more openness among non-Christian students than among non-Christian students than among non-Christian students than they've ever seen they've ever seen they've ever seen uh in the last couple of years. And so uh in the last couple of years. And so uh in the last couple of years. And so over 75% of respondents to a survey on over 75% of respondents to a survey on over 75% of respondents to a survey on whether you would go to church if you whether you would go to church if you whether you would go to church if you were invited to said yes. Again, they were invited to said yes. Again, they were invited to said yes. Again, they had never seen that kind of level of had never seen that kind of level of had never seen that kind of level of openness among Gen Z students. So I've openness among Gen Z students. So I've openness among Gen Z students. So I've sensed that something is actually sensed that something is actually sensed that something is actually changing and there could be a really changing and there could be a really changing and there could be a really exciting opportunity there even as much exciting opportunity there even as much exciting opportunity there even as much as we often decry the fact that, you as we often decry the fact that, you as we often decry the fact that, you know, Gen Z is the least religious know, Gen Z is the least religious know, Gen Z is the least religious generation. They're actually one of the generation. They're actually one of the generation. They're actually one of the most open as well. That's obviously most open as well. That's obviously most open as well. That's obviously going in lots of different quite going in lots of different quite going in lots of different quite esoteric directions often. esoteric directions often. esoteric directions often. I'm open, but I'm not running the I'm open, but I'm not running the I'm open, but I'm not running the church. Yeah. He's like So I want to get church. Yeah. He's like So I want to get church. Yeah. He's like So I want to get there a little bit more, but I want to there a little bit more, but I want to there a little bit more, but I want to update our little historical update our little historical update our little historical conversation and talk about something conversation and talk about something conversation and talk about something that's in living memory for a lot of that's in living memory for a lot of that's in living memory for a lot of listeners, listeners, listeners, which is the explosive rise of the new which is the explosive rise of the new which is the explosive rise of the new atheism, which was what? That was like atheism, which was what? That was like atheism, which was what? That was like the mid-2000s, wasn't it? It was fairly the mid-2000s, wasn't it? It was fairly the mid-2000s, wasn't it? It was fairly recent phenomena. Like even recent phenomena. Like even recent phenomena. Like even 10, 15 years ago, the new atheists, 10, 15 years ago, the new atheists, 10, 15 years ago, the new atheists, Dawkins, Hitchens, were all the rage and Dawkins, Hitchens, were all the rage and Dawkins, Hitchens, were all the rage and were thought to be winning the war.

were thought to be winning the war. were thought to be winning the war. We do have a lot of young listeners. So We do have a lot of young listeners. So We do have a lot of young listeners. So just bring us up on on that sort of just bring us up on on that sort of just bring us up on on that sort of explosion out of the gate of what what explosion out of the gate of what what explosion out of the gate of what what is called the new atheism. And then why is called the new atheism. And then why is called the new atheism. And then why it seems to have it seems to have it seems to have died as quickly as it came. But tell us died as quickly as it came. But tell us died as quickly as it came. But tell us about that. Well, in in the book and the about that. Well, in in the book and the about that. Well, in in the book and the podcast series, The Surprising Rebirth podcast series, The Surprising Rebirth podcast series, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God, I I sort of used the of Belief in God, I I sort of used the of Belief in God, I I sort of used the the tagline for it, "Why New Atheism the tagline for it, "Why New Atheism the tagline for it, "Why New Atheism Grew Old and Secular Thinkers Are Grew Old and Secular Thinkers Are Grew Old and Secular Thinkers Are Considering Christianity Again." And I Considering Christianity Again." And I Considering Christianity Again." And I think I think that's, you know, an apt think I think that's, you know, an apt think I think that's, you know, an apt way of putting it that new atheism was way of putting it that new atheism was way of putting it that new atheism was very much this new thing on the block in very much this new thing on the block in very much this new thing on the block in the mid-2000s. And and this was the time the mid-2000s. And and this was the time the mid-2000s. And and this was the time when I was just really starting my when I was just really starting my when I was just really starting my broadcasting career and starting to host broadcasting career and starting to host broadcasting career and starting to host conversations between Christians and conversations between Christians and conversations between Christians and non-Christians. So new atheism was this non-Christians. So new atheism was this non-Christians. So new atheism was this very dogmatic, quite aggressive form of very dogmatic, quite aggressive form of very dogmatic, quite aggressive form of non-belief. Um And the word was it was non-belief. Um And the word was it was non-belief. Um And the word was it was evangelical atheism seeking to convert evangelical atheism seeking to convert evangelical atheism seeking to convert you. you. you. Absolutely. So whereas perhaps atheism Absolutely. So whereas perhaps atheism Absolutely. So whereas perhaps atheism of an older generation had essentially of an older generation had essentially of an older generation had essentially been siloed essentially in more been siloed essentially in more been siloed essentially in more academic, you know, places and had sort academic, you know, places and had sort academic, you know, places and had sort of been tolerant at least to the of been tolerant at least to the of been tolerant at least to the the existence of religion in general.

the existence of religion in general. the existence of religion in general. This was a much more, as you say, This was a much more, as you say, This was a much more, as you say, aggressive form of atheism, much more aggressive form of atheism, much more aggressive form of atheism, much more zealous arguably. And was fronted by zealous arguably. And was fronted by zealous arguably. And was fronted by some, you know, quite well-known public some, you know, quite well-known public some, you know, quite well-known public intellectuals. So there were the intellectuals. So there were the intellectuals. So there were the so-called four horsemen of new atheism, so-called four horsemen of new atheism, so-called four horsemen of new atheism, Richard Dawkins, well-known biologist, Richard Dawkins, well-known biologist, Richard Dawkins, well-known biologist, Sam Harris over in the US, Daniel Sam Harris over in the US, Daniel Sam Harris over in the US, Daniel Dennett, a philosopher, and Christopher Dennett, a philosopher, and Christopher Dennett, a philosopher, and Christopher Hitchens, a journalist. And they each Hitchens, a journalist. And they each Hitchens, a journalist. And they each had their own best-selling anti-god book had their own best-selling anti-god book had their own best-selling anti-god book that really kind of created a whole new that really kind of created a whole new that really kind of created a whole new genre of sort of anti-religious genre of sort of anti-religious genre of sort of anti-religious literature in the mid-2000s. The best literature in the mid-2000s. The best literature in the mid-2000s. The best known is Richard Dawkins' The God known is Richard Dawkins' The God known is Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, which sold millions of copies Delusion, which sold millions of copies Delusion, which sold millions of copies around the world. around the world. around the world. And it was it was fascinating. I think And it was it was fascinating. I think And it was it was fascinating. I think there were probably a few key reasons there were probably a few key reasons there were probably a few key reasons why it sort of suddenly sprang up at why it sort of suddenly sprang up at why it sort of suddenly sprang up at that time. I think it was coming on the that time. I think it was coming on the that time. I think it was coming on the heels of 9/11 and a lot of sense among heels of 9/11 and a lot of sense among heels of 9/11 and a lot of sense among some people that religion was not only some people that religion was not only some people that religion was not only false but dangerous. false but dangerous. false but dangerous. There was There was There was was the argument. It was like toxic to was the argument. It was like toxic to was the argument. It was like toxic to your health. Absolutely. Yeah. And and your health. Absolutely. Yeah. And and your health. Absolutely. Yeah. And and this was the key thing. I think whereas this was the key thing. I think whereas this was the key thing. I think whereas a previous generation had, you know, a previous generation had, you know, a previous generation had, you know, essentially said, "Well, religion is not essentially said, "Well, religion is not essentially said, "Well, religion is not true." That was, you know, famously true." That was, you know, famously true." That was, you know, famously Bertrand Russell's book, Why I'm Not a Bertrand Russell's book, Why I'm Not a Bertrand Russell's book, Why I'm Not a Christian was essentially him trying to Christian was essentially him trying to Christian was essentially him trying to disprove it. This this particular disprove it. This this particular disprove it. This this particular generation was saying, "Not only is it generation was saying, "Not only is it generation was saying, "Not only is it not true, it's also very dangerous." And not true, it's also very dangerous." And not true, it's also very dangerous." And and so that's why Christopher Hitchens' and so that's why Christopher Hitchens' and so that's why Christopher Hitchens' book is called, you know, book is called, you know, book is called, you know, "Why Religion Poisons Everything." And "Why Religion Poisons Everything." And "Why Religion Poisons Everything." And so um so so that this was the the tenor so um so so that this was the the tenor so um so so that this was the the tenor of the the public discussion on faith.

of the the public discussion on faith. of the the public discussion on faith. And and that was played out in all kinds And and that was played out in all kinds And and that was played out in all kinds of interesting ways. Um so in the UK, we of interesting ways. Um so in the UK, we of interesting ways. Um so in the UK, we had the atheist bus campaign, which was had the atheist bus campaign, which was had the atheist bus campaign, which was the closest thing to a an advertising the closest thing to a an advertising the closest thing to a an advertising campaign atheism ever had here. And that campaign atheism ever had here. And that campaign atheism ever had here. And that was these let red London buses bearing was these let red London buses bearing was these let red London buses bearing the slogan, "There's probably no God. the slogan, "There's probably no God. the slogan, "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." And and this was, you know, just the way And and this was, you know, just the way And and this was, you know, just the way that the culture was at that time. that the culture was at that time. that the culture was at that time. Who who funded that? Who who funded that? Who who funded that? So that was funded by um the British So that was funded by um the British So that was funded by um the British Humanist Association, as was. Um and so Humanist Association, as was. Um and so Humanist Association, as was. Um and so that's a group of sort of secularists that's a group of sort of secularists that's a group of sort of secularists who who want to sort of advocate for for who who want to sort of advocate for for who who want to sort of advocate for for for non-religion. And but it was Richard for non-religion. And but it was Richard for non-religion. And but it was Richard Dawkins himself who really gave it a big Dawkins himself who really gave it a big Dawkins himself who really gave it a big boo- boost when he sort of put some of boo- boost when he sort of put some of boo- boost when he sort of put some of his own money into it. And and that got his own money into it. And and that got his own money into it. And and that got quite a lot of publicity. quite a lot of publicity. quite a lot of publicity. I mean, I've got to say though, I mean, I've got to say though, I mean, I've got to say though, honestly, Carrie, honestly, Carrie, honestly, Carrie, it was an absolute gift for Christians it was an absolute gift for Christians it was an absolute gift for Christians as far as I'm concerned because I mean, as far as I'm concerned because I mean, as far as I'm concerned because I mean, people in the UK hardly needed reminding people in the UK hardly needed reminding people in the UK hardly needed reminding that there's probably no God. I mean, that there's probably no God. I mean, that there's probably no God. I mean, people just weren't thinking about God, people just weren't thinking about God, people just weren't thinking about God, full stop. full stop. full stop. And yet here were these red London buses And yet here were these red London buses And yet here were these red London buses putting the question right into people's putting the question right into people's putting the question right into people's eyeline. And I thought, "Wonderful. This eyeline. And I thought, "Wonderful. This eyeline. And I thought, "Wonderful. This is Richard Dawkins. By saying there's is Richard Dawkins. By saying there's is Richard Dawkins. By saying there's probably no God, he's actually probably probably no God, he's actually probably probably no God, he's actually probably making a lot more people ask the making a lot more people ask the making a lot more people ask the question, well, is there a God? I hadn't question, well, is there a God? I hadn't question, well, is there a God? I hadn't really thought about it, but now you're really thought about it, but now you're really thought about it, but now you're now you mention it." And and so I now you mention it." And and so I now you mention it." And and so I actually I know a number of Christian actually I know a number of Christian actually I know a number of Christian leaders here in the UK who who also put leaders here in the UK who who also put leaders here in the UK who who also put money into it, who funded that campaign money into it, who funded that campaign money into it, who funded that campaign because they thought it was a wonderful because they thought it was a wonderful because they thought it was a wonderful evangelistic opportunity. So so there evangelistic opportunity. So so there evangelistic opportunity. So so there you go. And you go. And you go. And and and the irony of the thing is I I do and and the irony of the thing is I I do and and the irony of the thing is I I do know people who came to faith through

know people who came to faith through know people who came to faith through Dawkins, through the new atheism. It was Dawkins, through the new atheism. It was Dawkins, through the new atheism. It was actually their questions and their very actually their questions and their very actually their questions and their very caustic approach to religion that caustic approach to religion that caustic approach to religion that actually made them stop and think and actually made them stop and think and actually made them stop and think and wonder whether there might be something wonder whether there might be something wonder whether there might be something to it and sort of sent them in the other to it and sort of sent them in the other to it and sort of sent them in the other direction. So direction. So direction. So of backfired. Yeah, I mean, God God has of backfired. Yeah, I mean, God God has of backfired. Yeah, I mean, God God has a sense of humor. And and sometimes that a sense of humor. And and sometimes that a sense of humor. And and sometimes that it works out that way, doesn't it? it works out that way, doesn't it? it works out that way, doesn't it? Why has the new atheism lost ground as Why has the new atheism lost ground as Why has the new atheism lost ground as quickly as it appears to have lost quickly as it appears to have lost quickly as it appears to have lost ground? ground? ground? Yeah, I was really watching from the Yeah, I was really watching from the Yeah, I was really watching from the sidelines as an interested observer sidelines as an interested observer sidelines as an interested observer because as I was because as I was because as I was hosting conversations from the mid-2000s hosting conversations from the mid-2000s hosting conversations from the mid-2000s onwards on on a show called onwards on on a show called onwards on on a show called Unbelievable, I was bringing on a lot of Unbelievable, I was bringing on a lot of Unbelievable, I was bringing on a lot of these new atheist type characters for these new atheist type characters for these new atheist type characters for these quite combative discussions and these quite combative discussions and these quite combative discussions and debates with Christian thinkers and debates with Christian thinkers and debates with Christian thinkers and apologists. And that was that was apologists. And that was that was apologists. And that was that was wonderful and exciting and I learned a wonderful and exciting and I learned a wonderful and exciting and I learned a lot along the way. But increasingly over lot along the way. But increasingly over lot along the way. But increasingly over the years, you know, by the mid-2010s, the years, you know, by the mid-2010s, the years, you know, by the mid-2010s, I would more often have non-believers I would more often have non-believers I would more often have non-believers coming on the show saying, "Well, coming on the show saying, "Well, coming on the show saying, "Well, I'm not a Richard Dawkins kind of I'm not a Richard Dawkins kind of I'm not a Richard Dawkins kind of atheist." Trying to distance themselves.

atheist." Trying to distance themselves. atheist." Trying to distance themselves. And I think that's partly because a lot And I think that's partly because a lot And I think that's partly because a lot of even non-believers and atheists had of even non-believers and atheists had of even non-believers and atheists had had become rather concerned at the very had become rather concerned at the very had become rather concerned at the very aggressive sloganeering form of atheism aggressive sloganeering form of atheism aggressive sloganeering form of atheism that it represented. Um it in a way it that it represented. Um it in a way it that it represented. Um it in a way it became quite religious. You know, it became quite religious. You know, it became quite religious. You know, it arguably it had its its high priests, arguably it had its its high priests, arguably it had its its high priests, these four horsemen these four horsemen these four horsemen Evangelistically atheistic, yeah. Evangelistically atheistic, yeah. Evangelistically atheistic, yeah. Yeah, exactly. As you said, Yeah, exactly. As you said, Yeah, exactly. As you said, evangelistic. And it was very zealous. evangelistic. And it was very zealous. evangelistic. And it was very zealous. It it had its holy texts, these It it had its holy texts, these It it had its holy texts, these best-selling books. It had its best-selling books. It had its best-selling books. It had its gatherings, you know, the atheist gatherings, you know, the atheist gatherings, you know, the atheist conferences that took place. And and conferences that took place. And and conferences that took place. And and arguably science was its object of arguably science was its object of arguably science was its object of worship. And and I just think more and worship. And and I just think more and worship. And and I just think more and more people started to tire of the sort more people started to tire of the sort more people started to tire of the sort of slightly more shrill and dogmatic of slightly more shrill and dogmatic of slightly more shrill and dogmatic nature of that movement. So so there was nature of that movement. So so there was nature of that movement. So so there was that going on on the one hand. People that going on on the one hand. People that going on on the one hand. People just began to tire of it. just began to tire of it. just began to tire of it. It had quite a dramatic internal It had quite a dramatic internal It had quite a dramatic internal implosion as well. And and this is implosion as well. And and this is implosion as well. And and this is something I sketch out in some detail in something I sketch out in some detail in something I sketch out in some detail in the my podcast series and book, which is the my podcast series and book, which is the my podcast series and book, which is that once the new atheists had had this that once the new atheists had had this that once the new atheists had had this a sort of honeymoon period where they'd a sort of honeymoon period where they'd a sort of honeymoon period where they'd all agreed that God didn't exist and all agreed that God didn't exist and all agreed that God didn't exist and religion was bad for you, it turned out religion was bad for you, it turned out religion was bad for you, it turned out there was very little else they could there was very little else they could there was very little else they could agree on because the movement began to agree on because the movement began to agree on because the movement began to splinter in all kinds of directions once splinter in all kinds of directions once splinter in all kinds of directions once they sort of started to try and decide they sort of started to try and decide they sort of started to try and decide what they were for. And essentially the what they were for. And essentially the what they were for. And essentially the movement sort of split into movement sort of split into movement sort of split into a wing that wanted to be very socially a wing that wanted to be very socially a wing that wanted to be very socially justice-oriented and kind of adopted the justice-oriented and kind of adopted the justice-oriented and kind of adopted the the label atheism plus. So that was the label atheism plus. So that was the label atheism plus. So that was atheism plus a commitment to atheism plus a commitment to atheism plus a commitment to you know, perhaps LGBT or feminism or

you know, perhaps LGBT or feminism or you know, perhaps LGBT or feminism or whatever it might be. whatever it might be. whatever it might be. And you had then And you had then And you had then against that against that against that a different part of the movement said, a different part of the movement said, a different part of the movement said, "We don't want any of that. We're not "We don't want any of that. We're not "We don't want any of that. We're not here to be politically correct. We're here to be politically correct. We're here to be politically correct. We're just here for science and reason." And just here for science and reason." And just here for science and reason." And they went in what we would now call a they went in what we would now call a they went in what we would now call a quote-unquote anti-woke direction. And quote-unquote anti-woke direction. And quote-unquote anti-woke direction. And and it but it kind of came early, those and it but it kind of came early, those and it but it kind of came early, those sorts of culture wars for new atheism. sorts of culture wars for new atheism. sorts of culture wars for new atheism. And there were some very specific And there were some very specific And there were some very specific moments. I remember one one in 2011, moments. I remember one one in 2011, moments. I remember one one in 2011, there was a there was a there was a a fiasco called Elevator Gate in which a a fiasco called Elevator Gate in which a a fiasco called Elevator Gate in which a female atheist vlogger, Rebecca Watson, female atheist vlogger, Rebecca Watson, female atheist vlogger, Rebecca Watson, gave a talk at an atheist conference in gave a talk at an atheist conference in gave a talk at an atheist conference in Dublin about the problem of misogyny in Dublin about the problem of misogyny in Dublin about the problem of misogyny in the atheist community as a as a the atheist community as a as a the atheist community as a as a feminist. And she um then went on to feminist. And she um then went on to feminist. And she um then went on to have drinks later on in the evening at a have drinks later on in the evening at a have drinks later on in the evening at a bar with Richard Dawkins, who was one of bar with Richard Dawkins, who was one of bar with Richard Dawkins, who was one of the speakers there. And she ended up the speakers there. And she ended up the speakers there. And she ended up going back to her hotel room in the going back to her hotel room in the going back to her hotel room in the early hours of the morning. And one of early hours of the morning. And one of early hours of the morning. And one of the people attending the conference got the people attending the conference got the people attending the conference got in the elevator with her and essentially in the elevator with her and essentially in the elevator with her and essentially propositioned her, said, "Would you like propositioned her, said, "Would you like propositioned her, said, "Would you like to come back to my room for coffee?" to come back to my room for coffee?" to come back to my room for coffee?" Anyway, that might have been the end of Anyway, that might have been the end of Anyway, that might have been the end of it except that she sort of vlogged about it except that she sort of vlogged about it except that she sort of vlogged about this the following day and said, "This this the following day and said, "This this the following day and said, "This is the problem, guys. You know, this is is the problem, guys. You know, this is is the problem, guys. You know, this is exactly what I was talking about."

exactly what I was talking about." exactly what I was talking about." But Richard Dawkins, when he came across But Richard Dawkins, when he came across But Richard Dawkins, when he came across this video, actually this video, actually this video, actually responded very sarcastically, poured responded very sarcastically, poured responded very sarcastically, poured scorn on the experience of this this scorn on the experience of this this scorn on the experience of this this female vlogger. And sort of wrote this female vlogger. And sort of wrote this female vlogger. And sort of wrote this highly sarcastic response called Dear highly sarcastic response called Dear highly sarcastic response called Dear Muslima, sort of Muslima, sort of Muslima, sort of parodying her her concerns against that parodying her her concerns against that parodying her her concerns against that of say um of say um of say um you know, someone in Saudi Arabia or you know, someone in Saudi Arabia or you know, someone in Saudi Arabia or another part of the world. Anyway, this another part of the world. Anyway, this another part of the world. Anyway, this just ignited the whole debate. And as I just ignited the whole debate. And as I just ignited the whole debate. And as I say, every everything gets, you know, say, every everything gets, you know, say, every everything gets, you know, appended with with gate now. But Elevate appended with with gate now. But Elevate appended with with gate now. But Elevate Elevator Gate became a big sort of point Elevator Gate became a big sort of point Elevator Gate became a big sort of point of controversy in in atheist circles. of controversy in in atheist circles. of controversy in in atheist circles. And and really that's when I saw the And and really that's when I saw the And and really that's when I saw the movement sort of taking these very movement sort of taking these very movement sort of taking these very different directions. Some people on the different directions. Some people on the different directions. Some people on the side of Richard Dawkins, others on the side of Richard Dawkins, others on the side of Richard Dawkins, others on the other side. And and the whole thing just other side. And and the whole thing just other side. And and the whole thing just started to the point where literally started to the point where literally started to the point where literally some of these, you know, these atheist some of these, you know, these atheist some of these, you know, these atheist conferences were being canceled because conferences were being canceled because conferences were being canceled because the speakers weren't willing to share a the speakers weren't willing to share a the speakers weren't willing to share a stage with each other any longer. They stage with each other any longer. They stage with each other any longer. They they would uh the the the ire they had they would uh the the the ire they had they would uh the the the ire they had towards each other was far worse than towards each other was far worse than towards each other was far worse than anything they meted out to their anything they meted out to their anything they meted out to their Christian counterparts. So so I was sort Christian counterparts. So so I was sort Christian counterparts. So so I was sort of watching that from the sidelines. And of watching that from the sidelines. And of watching that from the sidelines. And it makes for a fascinating story um and it makes for a fascinating story um and it makes for a fascinating story um and and that's partly the reason why and that's partly the reason why and that's partly the reason why ultimately new atheism sort of founded ultimately new atheism sort of founded ultimately new atheism sort of founded and and and went down.

and and and went down. and and and went down. It's sort of, you know, when leaders It's sort of, you know, when leaders It's sort of, you know, when leaders talk to me about church splits, I said, talk to me about church splits, I said, talk to me about church splits, I said, "One of the realities of church splits "One of the realities of church splits "One of the realities of church splits is if the only thing that unites you is is if the only thing that unites you is is if the only thing that unites you is what you're against, it's only a matter what you're against, it's only a matter what you're against, it's only a matter of time until the whole split unravels." of time until the whole split unravels." of time until the whole split unravels." Because, okay, the eight of us all agree Because, okay, the eight of us all agree Because, okay, the eight of us all agree or the 800 of us all agree or the 800 of us all agree or the 800 of us all agree that we don't like this. But actually we that we don't like this. But actually we that we don't like this. But actually we don't agree on anything else. And then, don't agree on anything else. And then, don't agree on anything else. And then, you know, it just kind of unravels. Were you know, it just kind of unravels. Were you know, it just kind of unravels. Were there any other reasons that you saw the there any other reasons that you saw the there any other reasons that you saw the new atheism sort of dissolving? I I new atheism sort of dissolving? I I new atheism sort of dissolving? I I think the biggest reason was essentially think the biggest reason was essentially think the biggest reason was essentially that in the end it didn't really answer that in the end it didn't really answer that in the end it didn't really answer people's ultimate questions. Um because people's ultimate questions. Um because people's ultimate questions. Um because sci- science and reason are great for sci- science and reason are great for sci- science and reason are great for some things, you know, uh some things, you know, uh some things, you know, uh but they don't answer life's ultimate but they don't answer life's ultimate but they don't answer life's ultimate questions. And so I think in the end questions. And so I think in the end questions. And so I think in the end people still were carrying the same people still were carrying the same people still were carrying the same questions with them about, well, what is questions with them about, well, what is questions with them about, well, what is the purpose of life? How how do I make the purpose of life? How how do I make the purpose of life? How how do I make sense of things? And I think sense of things? And I think sense of things? And I think increasingly increasingly increasingly as the new atheist sort of promises in as the new atheist sort of promises in as the new atheist sort of promises in the literature of if we could only adopt the literature of if we could only adopt the literature of if we could only adopt all adopt science and reason, we'll all adopt science and reason, we'll all adopt science and reason, we'll we'll move into this harmonious we'll move into this harmonious we'll move into this harmonious technological scientific utopia. As that technological scientific utopia. As that technological scientific utopia. As that simply wasn't realized, as actually simply wasn't realized, as actually simply wasn't realized, as actually things got worse in many ways, as the things got worse in many ways, as the things got worse in many ways, as the culture wars progressed, as you know, culture wars progressed, as you know, culture wars progressed, as you know, people started to I think experience people started to I think experience people started to I think experience what what I would term a meaning crisis what what I would term a meaning crisis what what I would term a meaning crisis in the culture, in the culture, in the culture, I think it it I think people began to I think it it I think people began to I think it it I think people began to sort of just move on and realize these sort of just move on and realize these sort of just move on and realize these guys don't have the answers actually. Um guys don't have the answers actually. Um guys don't have the answers actually. Um and that's why, as I say in in the book and that's why, as I say in in the book and that's why, as I say in in the book and podcast series, I really focus on and podcast series, I really focus on and podcast series, I really focus on the rise of a new sort of set of secular the rise of a new sort of set of secular the rise of a new sort of set of secular thinkers, still non-Christians many of

thinkers, still non-Christians many of thinkers, still non-Christians many of them, but with very different sorts of them, but with very different sorts of them, but with very different sorts of ways of engaging those ultimate ways of engaging those ultimate ways of engaging those ultimate existential questions that that people existential questions that that people existential questions that that people still had. And so so I think it's still had. And so so I think it's still had. And so so I think it's essentially that people just essentially that people just essentially that people just didn't get the answers they they all didn't get the answers they they all didn't get the answers they they all actually needed from the atheists. actually needed from the atheists. actually needed from the atheists. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Gloo. You know what? Easter is going to Gloo. You know what? Easter is going to Gloo. You know what? Easter is going to be here before you know it. be here before you know it. be here before you know it. Question is, are you ready? Well, if you Question is, are you ready? Well, if you Question is, are you ready? Well, if you want to reach more people and engage want to reach more people and engage want to reach more people and engage your congregation and make this Easter your congregation and make this Easter your congregation and make this Easter your biggest yet, you can probably use your biggest yet, you can probably use your biggest yet, you can probably use Gloo messaging. It's the free church Gloo messaging. It's the free church Gloo messaging. It's the free church texting tool taking the faith space by texting tool taking the faith space by texting tool taking the faith space by storm. With free texting on Gloo, here's storm. With free texting on Gloo, here's storm. With free texting on Gloo, here's what you can do. You can welcome new what you can do. You can welcome new what you can do. You can welcome new visitors. You can collect prayer visitors. You can collect prayer visitors. You can collect prayer requests. You can invite people to requests. You can invite people to requests. You can invite people to Easter events. And you can actually send Easter events. And you can actually send Easter events. And you can actually send over 10,000 free texts all at no cost to over 10,000 free texts all at no cost to over 10,000 free texts all at no cost to you. Texting is one of the fastest, you. Texting is one of the fastest, you. Texting is one of the fastest, easiest, and most effective ways to easiest, and most effective ways to easiest, and most effective ways to connect with people right where they connect with people right where they connect with people right where they are, on their phones. And with Gloo are, on their phones. And with Gloo are, on their phones. And with Gloo messaging, you can do that all for free. messaging, you can do that all for free. messaging, you can do that all for free. So sign up today at gloo.us/messaging.

So sign up today at gloo.us/messaging. So sign up today at gloo.us/messaging. That's g l o o.us/messaging. That's g l o o.us/messaging. That's g l o o.us/messaging. And make this Easter the most impactful And make this Easter the most impactful And make this Easter the most impactful Easter yet. Easter yet. Easter yet. Can you give us a a thumbnail of where Can you give us a a thumbnail of where Can you give us a a thumbnail of where the emerging atheist thinkers are coming the emerging atheist thinkers are coming the emerging atheist thinkers are coming from, what their paradigm is? from, what their paradigm is? from, what their paradigm is? So by that, do you mean the sort of the So by that, do you mean the sort of the So by that, do you mean the sort of the new sort of thinkers who aren't part of new sort of thinkers who aren't part of new sort of thinkers who aren't part of the new atheist thinkers? the new atheist thinkers? the new atheist thinkers? to. Yeah. The ones you just alluded to. to. Yeah. The ones you just alluded to. to. Yeah. The ones you just alluded to. Well, I I wouldn't want to necessarily Well, I I wouldn't want to necessarily Well, I I wouldn't want to necessarily say they're all atheists um in as much say they're all atheists um in as much say they're all atheists um in as much as they're not perhaps not Christians, as they're not perhaps not Christians, as they're not perhaps not Christians, but they they quite often more but they they quite often more but they they quite often more open-minded to the possibility of faith. open-minded to the possibility of faith. open-minded to the possibility of faith. They might be agnostics. They might even They might be agnostics. They might even They might be agnostics. They might even turn themselves seekers and so on. But turn themselves seekers and so on. But turn themselves seekers and so on. But these these are people like Jordan these these are people like Jordan these these are people like Jordan Peterson, for instance. Um and many Peterson, for instance. Um and many Peterson, for instance. Um and many people will will be aware of him, a people will will be aware of him, a people will will be aware of him, a Canadian psychologist who really came to Canadian psychologist who really came to Canadian psychologist who really came to public awareness in sort of 2017, 2018 public awareness in sort of 2017, 2018 public awareness in sort of 2017, 2018 partly on the back of sort of, you know, partly on the back of sort of, you know, partly on the back of sort of, you know, his objections to certain aspects of his objections to certain aspects of his objections to certain aspects of uh political correct politically correct uh political correct politically correct uh political correct politically correct culture in culture in culture in Canada.

Canada. Canada. But but really what really alerted me to But but really what really alerted me to But but really what really alerted me to to him sort of was when people started to him sort of was when people started to him sort of was when people started sending me these lectures he was doing sending me these lectures he was doing sending me these lectures he was doing to packed out auditoriums thousands of to packed out auditoriums thousands of to packed out auditoriums thousands of people. And his Old Testament stuff is people. And his Old Testament stuff is people. And his Old Testament stuff is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, very fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, very fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, very interesting and and here he was interesting and and here he was interesting and and here he was lecturing to all these young people on lecturing to all these young people on lecturing to all these young people on the book of Genesis for two or three the book of Genesis for two or three the book of Genesis for two or three hours and and you've got to ask well hours and and you've got to ask well hours and and you've got to ask well what what on earth is going on and what what on earth is going on and what what on earth is going on and and it turned out that yes there was a and it turned out that yes there was a and it turned out that yes there was a real interest that he was tapping into real interest that he was tapping into real interest that he was tapping into among a lot of millennials and and among a lot of millennials and and among a lot of millennials and and increasingly Gen Z increasingly Gen Z increasingly Gen Z for sort of answers about purpose and for sort of answers about purpose and for sort of answers about purpose and meaning and identity and the place he meaning and identity and the place he meaning and identity and the place he was sending them to ultimately was was sending them to ultimately was was sending them to ultimately was scripture and saying well this is the scripture and saying well this is the scripture and saying well this is the book that sort of really tells us who we book that sort of really tells us who we book that sort of really tells us who we are and where we're coming from. are and where we're coming from. are and where we're coming from. Now I could come back to him because Now I could come back to him because Now I could come back to him because there's lots more to say about his there's lots more to say about his there's lots more to say about his particular approach to to the Bible but particular approach to to the Bible but particular approach to to the Bible but he's just one example of this kind of he's just one example of this kind of he's just one example of this kind of this new conversation that has emerged this new conversation that has emerged this new conversation that has emerged and and and someone with a huge platform you know someone with a huge platform you know someone with a huge platform you know attracting thousands of people to his attracting thousands of people to his attracting thousands of people to his live talks but also millions watching on live talks but also millions watching on live talks but also millions watching on YouTube to his podcast and so on.

YouTube to his podcast and so on. YouTube to his podcast and so on. And alongside him you know all kinds of And alongside him you know all kinds of And alongside him you know all kinds of other interesting similar intellectuals other interesting similar intellectuals other interesting similar intellectuals again not necessarily Christians but again not necessarily Christians but again not necessarily Christians but very open to the value of faith whereas very open to the value of faith whereas very open to the value of faith whereas the the atheist the new atheist told us the the atheist the new atheist told us the the atheist the new atheist told us religion is terrible for you you know religion is terrible for you you know religion is terrible for you you know poisons everything. poisons everything. poisons everything. That was not at all the view of of these That was not at all the view of of these That was not at all the view of of these new thinkers. They were saying actually new thinkers. They were saying actually new thinkers. They were saying actually maybe we need something like the maybe we need something like the maybe we need something like the Christian story to make sense of life. Christian story to make sense of life. Christian story to make sense of life. Maybe actually the Christian story has Maybe actually the Christian story has Maybe actually the Christian story has done an awful lot more for our culture done an awful lot more for our culture done an awful lot more for our culture than we've given it credit for and so an than we've given it credit for and so an than we've given it credit for and so an obvious example of that is is Tom obvious example of that is is Tom obvious example of that is is Tom Holland the historian not the Spider-Man Holland the historian not the Spider-Man Holland the historian not the Spider-Man actor just in case there's any actor just in case there's any actor just in case there's any confusion. Um but many people by now confusion. Um but many people by now confusion. Um but many people by now aware of of his best-selling book aware of of his best-selling book aware of of his best-selling book Dominion which is essentially his Dominion which is essentially his Dominion which is essentially his his case yeah as a historian a secular his case yeah as a historian a secular his case yeah as a historian a secular historian for the way in which the historian for the way in which the historian for the way in which the Christian revolution completely shaped Christian revolution completely shaped Christian revolution completely shaped the moral imagination of the West and the moral imagination of the West and the moral imagination of the West and and in one in many ways Tom's Tom and in one in many ways Tom's Tom and in one in many ways Tom's Tom Holland's own story I think reflects Holland's own story I think reflects Holland's own story I think reflects that because he very much grew up as I that because he very much grew up as I that because he very much grew up as I said you know earlier in a kind of said you know earlier in a kind of said you know earlier in a kind of nominal Christian background where it it nominal Christian background where it it nominal Christian background where it it was sort of part of his upbringing but was sort of part of his upbringing but was sort of part of his upbringing but he never really you know invested that he never really you know invested that he never really you know invested that much into it. He he was a sort of much into it. He he was a sort of much into it. He he was a sort of agnostic really by the time his teenage agnostic really by the time his teenage agnostic really by the time his teenage years came around and years came around and years came around and and he was a happy sort of agnostic and he was a happy sort of agnostic and he was a happy sort of agnostic making a living from writing popular making a living from writing popular making a living from writing popular historical works on the Greco-Roman historical works on the Greco-Roman historical works on the Greco-Roman world into his adult years.

world into his adult years. world into his adult years. But what he says is the the longer he But what he says is the the longer he But what he says is the the longer he spent time in in the sandals if you like spent time in in the sandals if you like spent time in in the sandals if you like of the Greeks and the Romans the more he of the Greeks and the Romans the more he of the Greeks and the Romans the more he realized how very alien their world was realized how very alien their world was realized how very alien their world was to his especially when it came to their to his especially when it came to their to his especially when it came to their values because this was a world where values because this was a world where values because this was a world where slavery was just a de facto part of the slavery was just a de facto part of the slavery was just a de facto part of the economy where the lives of women and economy where the lives of women and economy where the lives of women and children were were very cheap where some children were were very cheap where some children were were very cheap where some people could be the sexual property of people could be the sexual property of people could be the sexual property of other people you know a Roman male other people you know a Roman male other people you know a Roman male could have access to whoever was could have access to whoever was could have access to whoever was essentially his social inferior and all essentially his social inferior and all essentially his social inferior and all kinds of other ways in which he he kinds of other ways in which he he kinds of other ways in which he he recognized that the values they held to recognized that the values they held to recognized that the values they held to were completely alien to his own belief were completely alien to his own belief were completely alien to his own belief in equality and human rights dignity in equality and human rights dignity in equality and human rights dignity freedom progress compassion and and he freedom progress compassion and and he freedom progress compassion and and he wondered well where did that come from wondered well where did that come from wondered well where did that come from and he realized I didn't get it from and he realized I didn't get it from and he realized I didn't get it from science or atheism those are sort of not science or atheism those are sort of not science or atheism those are sort of not value neutral projects really. value neutral projects really. value neutral projects really. He realized he didn't get it from the He realized he didn't get it from the He realized he didn't get it from the Greeks or the Romans obviously. Greeks or the Romans obviously. Greeks or the Romans obviously. Um he realized he got them from Jesus Um he realized he got them from Jesus Um he realized he got them from Jesus Christ and the movement that began in Christ and the movement that began in Christ and the movement that began in his name and and so he the way he put it his name and and so he the way he put it his name and and so he the way he put it to me you know in in and I had the to me you know in in and I had the to me you know in in and I had the privilege of interviewing quite a number privilege of interviewing quite a number privilege of interviewing quite a number of times over the last few years. He of times over the last few years. He of times over the last few years. He said I I I struggle to believe in said I I I struggle to believe in said I I I struggle to believe in Christianity Justin but I recognize that Christianity Justin but I recognize that Christianity Justin but I recognize that in almost every other way I am a in almost every other way I am a in almost every other way I am a Christian because I've been so shaped by Christian because I've been so shaped by Christian because I've been so shaped by the Christian culture that essentially the Christian culture that essentially the Christian culture that essentially handed us the West. So so handed us the West. So so handed us the West. So so and again huge following he he co-hosts and again huge following he he co-hosts and again huge following he he co-hosts the most popular history podcast in the the most popular history podcast in the the most popular history podcast in the world now The Rest Is History.

world now The Rest Is History. world now The Rest Is History. And it's so fascinating to see these And it's so fascinating to see these And it's so fascinating to see these very influential very influential very influential agnostic characters intellectuals but agnostic characters intellectuals but agnostic characters intellectuals but very open to the value of Christianity very open to the value of Christianity very open to the value of Christianity suddenly coming on the scene and I could suddenly coming on the scene and I could suddenly coming on the scene and I could mention many more besides. mention many more besides. mention many more besides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No the two that you picked are really No the two that you picked are really No the two that you picked are really interesting choices because I think interesting choices because I think interesting choices because I think there's a lot of people listening to the there's a lot of people listening to the there's a lot of people listening to the show who would say well wait a minute I show who would say well wait a minute I show who would say well wait a minute I thought Jordan Peterson and thought Jordan Peterson and thought Jordan Peterson and Tom Holland were were ours like they Tom Holland were were ours like they Tom Holland were were ours like they were part of the the the Christian were part of the the the Christian were part of the the the Christian milieu or at least they are people who milieu or at least they are people who milieu or at least they are people who Christians are open to learning and Christians are open to learning and Christians are open to learning and listening from listening from listening from but Jordan Peterson unless I'm out of but Jordan Peterson unless I'm out of but Jordan Peterson unless I'm out of date famously has not declared his date famously has not declared his date famously has not declared his position spiritually. He would question position spiritually. He would question position spiritually. He would question he will not answer even though his whole he will not answer even though his whole he will not answer even though his whole new book is about the Bible from what I new book is about the Bible from what I new book is about the Bible from what I understand. And and Tom Holland is you understand. And and Tom Holland is you understand. And and Tom Holland is you know he's a little bit at the end of know he's a little bit at the end of know he's a little bit at the end of Dominion about his own spiritual journey Dominion about his own spiritual journey Dominion about his own spiritual journey but he's sort of on the fence. So you but he's sort of on the fence. So you but he's sort of on the fence. So you would consider them to be like agnostic would consider them to be like agnostic would consider them to be like agnostic open slash I'm not I'm not I don't like open slash I'm not I'm not I don't like open slash I'm not I'm not I don't like labels but I'm just curious.

labels but I'm just curious. labels but I'm just curious. I'm not here to sort of say exactly I'm not here to sort of say exactly I'm not here to sort of say exactly where they are obviously that's that's where they are obviously that's that's where they are obviously that's that's ultimately between them and God. I I ultimately between them and God. I I ultimately between them and God. I I would say interestingly Tom Holland even would say interestingly Tom Holland even would say interestingly Tom Holland even in the time that I've known him and I've in the time that I've known him and I've in the time that I've known him and I've been interviewing him he's he has been interviewing him he's he has been interviewing him he's he has gone and on a on something of a gone and on a on something of a gone and on a on something of a spiritual journey as well as this spiritual journey as well as this spiritual journey as well as this intellectual one. And I you know and intellectual one. And I you know and intellectual one. And I you know and this is no secret he the last time I did this is no secret he the last time I did this is no secret he the last time I did a public conversation with him in London a public conversation with him in London a public conversation with him in London he talked actually quite candidly about he talked actually quite candidly about he talked actually quite candidly about some some some experiences he'd had which had really experiences he'd had which had really experiences he'd had which had really made him sort of really brought him to made him sort of really brought him to made him sort of really brought him to the edge of faith and and he does now go the edge of faith and and he does now go the edge of faith and and he does now go to church quite regularly to church quite regularly to church quite regularly and he will often say to me look and he will often say to me look and he will often say to me look if you ask me at Easter do you believe if you ask me at Easter do you believe if you ask me at Easter do you believe in God and Christianity I'll say in God and Christianity I'll say in God and Christianity I'll say absolutely I do. absolutely I do. absolutely I do. Um and sometimes it's about the Um and sometimes it's about the Um and sometimes it's about the environment I'm in and environment I'm in and environment I'm in and um but actually I I think there is a um but actually I I think there is a um but actually I I think there is a I'd say if if I had to sort of you know I'd say if if I had to sort of you know I'd say if if I had to sort of you know call it one way or the other I'd say Tom call it one way or the other I'd say Tom call it one way or the other I'd say Tom Holland is essentially Holland is essentially Holland is essentially wants to believe and often does believe wants to believe and often does believe wants to believe and often does believe you know he's in that sort of Lord I you know he's in that sort of Lord I you know he's in that sort of Lord I believe help my unbelief kind of kind of believe help my unbelief kind of kind of believe help my unbelief kind of kind of phase I would I would say.

phase I would I would say. phase I would I would say. Jordan Peterson is hard as I said Jordan Peterson is hard as I said Jordan Peterson is hard as I said earlier earlier earlier he takes a very psychological especially he takes a very psychological especially he takes a very psychological especially Jungian approach to scripture and and Jungian approach to scripture and and Jungian approach to scripture and and for him that is the way in which he for him that is the way in which he for him that is the way in which he that's the interpretive lens he puts on that's the interpretive lens he puts on that's the interpretive lens he puts on the Bible and it's led a lot of people the Bible and it's led a lot of people the Bible and it's led a lot of people to ask I think quite legitimately well to ask I think quite legitimately well to ask I think quite legitimately well is this just a sort of is it sort of is this just a sort of is it sort of is this just a sort of is it sort of symbolism all the way down as far as symbolism all the way down as far as symbolism all the way down as far as he's concerned when it comes to the he's concerned when it comes to the he's concerned when it comes to the Bible is Bible is Bible is you know you know you know and the real question is did Jesus rise and the real question is did Jesus rise and the real question is did Jesus rise from the dead is that just a is that a from the dead is that just a is that a from the dead is that just a is that a fact of history or is it a fact of history or is it a fact of history or is it a very helpful psychological concept if very helpful psychological concept if very helpful psychological concept if you like and and that's the ultimate you like and and that's the ultimate you like and and that's the ultimate question. question. question. I mean what's interesting is that I mean what's interesting is that I mean what's interesting is that there's certainly many people around there's certainly many people around there's certainly many people around Jordan Peterson Jordan Peterson Jordan Peterson who have answered in the affirmative to who have answered in the affirmative to who have answered in the affirmative to the the historical reality of the the historical reality of the the historical reality of Christianity not least his wife Tammy Christianity not least his wife Tammy Christianity not least his wife Tammy Peterson who's become a very devout Peterson who's become a very devout Peterson who's become a very devout Catholic now Catholic now Catholic now his his daughter Michaela has become a his his daughter Michaela has become a his his daughter Michaela has become a Christian and he surrounds himself with Christian and he surrounds himself with Christian and he surrounds himself with lots of Christian thinkers people like lots of Christian thinkers people like lots of Christian thinkers people like Bishop Robert Barron the well-known Bishop Robert Barron the well-known Bishop Robert Barron the well-known Catholic Catholic Catholic Bishop Bishop Bishop Jonathan Pageau well-known Jonathan Pageau well-known Jonathan Pageau well-known orthodox thinker and many others and and orthodox thinker and many others and and orthodox thinker and many others and and so it feels like the net is certainly so it feels like the net is certainly so it feels like the net is certainly sort of closing in to that extent. I and sort of closing in to that extent. I and sort of closing in to that extent. I and I'm I just don't know I don't know what I'm I just don't know I don't know what I'm I just don't know I don't know what it is ultimately that may it is ultimately that may it is ultimately that may finally bring him across the line if if finally bring him across the line if if finally bring him across the line if if you like you like you like I think there's still a I think there's still a I think there's still a a battle possibly going on there in a battle possibly going on there in a battle possibly going on there in terms of submitting to something that is terms of submitting to something that is terms of submitting to something that is ultimately about more than the intellect ultimately about more than the intellect ultimately about more than the intellect that transcends the intellect in that that transcends the intellect in that that transcends the intellect in that sense. So so I don't know exactly where

sense. So so I don't know exactly where sense. So so I don't know exactly where he is. he is. he is. What I will say Kerry is those are just What I will say Kerry is those are just What I will say Kerry is those are just two examples and there's a whole two examples and there's a whole two examples and there's a whole spectrum here. spectrum here. spectrum here. Oh Oh Oh And and there's people who are very much And and there's people who are very much And and there's people who are very much on the on the on the arguably a slightly more cynical end of arguably a slightly more cynical end of arguably a slightly more cynical end of the spectrum where they the spectrum where they the spectrum where they they can see the value of Christianity they can see the value of Christianity they can see the value of Christianity they're glad it's there but they have no they're glad it's there but they have no they're glad it's there but they have no interest in believing in it themselves. interest in believing in it themselves. interest in believing in it themselves. They they are the the quote unquote They they are the the quote unquote They they are the the quote unquote cultural Christians and and even Richard cultural Christians and and even Richard cultural Christians and and even Richard Dawkins has has said words to that Dawkins has has said words to that Dawkins has has said words to that effect in in recent you know months. effect in in recent you know months. effect in in recent you know months. Well what a difference 15 years makes. I Well what a difference 15 years makes. I Well what a difference 15 years makes. I mean from evangelical atheist topping mean from evangelical atheist topping mean from evangelical atheist topping the bestseller list to people like the bestseller list to people like the bestseller list to people like Peterson and Holland topping the Peterson and Holland topping the Peterson and Holland topping the bestseller list and a fundamentally more bestseller list and a fundamentally more bestseller list and a fundamentally more sympathetic open view sympathetic open view sympathetic open view to Christianity which I think is your to Christianity which I think is your to Christianity which I think is your point right which which is fascinating. point right which which is fascinating. point right which which is fascinating. But what I what I'm interested in But what I what I'm interested in But what I what I'm interested in I mean one of the things I loved about I mean one of the things I loved about I mean one of the things I loved about preaching for decades and I'm not preaching for decades and I'm not preaching for decades and I'm not preaching as much anymore once or twice preaching as much anymore once or twice preaching as much anymore once or twice a year that's it just dabbling once in a a year that's it just dabbling once in a a year that's it just dabbling once in a while but it's time time for another while but it's time time for another while but it's time time for another generation. So generation. So generation. So but one of the things I always loved was but one of the things I always loved was but one of the things I always loved was when unchurched people were in the room when unchurched people were in the room when unchurched people were in the room and I would always try to convince the and I would always try to convince the and I would always try to convince the skeptic. And sometimes people were just skeptic. And sometimes people were just skeptic. And sometimes people were just skeptical because you know we're kind of skeptical because you know we're kind of skeptical because you know we're kind of pre-Christian culture in Canada they pre-Christian culture in Canada they pre-Christian culture in Canada they didn't know or the whole resurrection didn't know or the whole resurrection didn't know or the whole resurrection thing or I don't know my grandmother was thing or I don't know my grandmother was thing or I don't know my grandmother was Anglican I didn't like it I hated church Anglican I didn't like it I hated church Anglican I didn't like it I hated church growing up or I grew up Catholic or growing up or I grew up Catholic or growing up or I grew up Catholic or Presbyterian or evangelical or I don't Presbyterian or evangelical or I don't Presbyterian or evangelical or I don't like the Christians I read about in the like the Christians I read about in the like the Christians I read about in the headlines. So there was always in my headlines. So there was always in my headlines. So there was always in my mind a battle going on. And you know to mind a battle going on. And you know to mind a battle going on. And you know to to I was trained in law and you know one

to I was trained in law and you know one to I was trained in law and you know one of the strategies you have to have is is of the strategies you have to have is is of the strategies you have to have is is don't give the worst argument of your don't give the worst argument of your don't give the worst argument of your enemy find the best argument of the enemy find the best argument of the enemy find the best argument of the opposing counsel the the thing and I'm opposing counsel the the thing and I'm opposing counsel the the thing and I'm I'm wondering you know because you've I'm wondering you know because you've I'm wondering you know because you've literally conducted hundreds of literally conducted hundreds of literally conducted hundreds of interviews with atheists. interviews with atheists. interviews with atheists. What in your mind as a Christian are the What in your mind as a Christian are the What in your mind as a Christian are the best arguments the atheists have? best arguments the atheists have? best arguments the atheists have? Ooh that's a great question. Ooh that's a great question. Ooh that's a great question. The interesting thing is as I've The interesting thing is as I've The interesting thing is as I've as I've engaged a lot of the arguments as I've engaged a lot of the arguments as I've engaged a lot of the arguments for and against Christianity over the for and against Christianity over the for and against Christianity over the years years years I think in all honesty there are more I think in all honesty there are more I think in all honesty there are more arguments for God than against arguments for God than against arguments for God than against if you simply were to to tally up the if you simply were to to tally up the if you simply were to to tally up the numbers you know if you look at the numbers you know if you look at the numbers you know if you look at the That's where I landed too but I'm That's where I landed too but I'm That's where I landed too but I'm interested I mean it's not like the interested I mean it's not like the interested I mean it's not like the atheists are brainless right like they atheists are brainless right like they atheists are brainless right like they have great views. And and and and what I have great views. And and and and what I have great views. And and and and what I would say is even though there are less would say is even though there are less would say is even though there are less arguments for atheism actually there arguments for atheism actually there arguments for atheism actually there there are some pretty powerful arguments there are some pretty powerful arguments there are some pretty powerful arguments nonetheless ones that that and the most nonetheless ones that that and the most nonetheless ones that that and the most obvious one is the problem of the and obvious one is the problem of the and obvious one is the problem of the and evil. evil. evil. That's the one that so many That's the one that so many That's the one that so many conversations ultimately came round to conversations ultimately came round to conversations ultimately came round to in one form or another.

in one form or another. in one form or another. And and and the objection to God which And and and the objection to God which And and and the objection to God which is arguably just takes different forms is arguably just takes different forms is arguably just takes different forms in in other arguments. So another in in other arguments. So another in in other arguments. So another another argument of a from atheism that another argument of a from atheism that another argument of a from atheism that I have found, you know, personally I have found, you know, personally I have found, you know, personally challenging is challenging is challenging is the God's hiddenness. Why if there is a the God's hiddenness. Why if there is a the God's hiddenness. Why if there is a God, why God, why God, why why does he seem to play hide and seek why does he seem to play hide and seek why does he seem to play hide and seek with us, you know, why why not just make with us, you know, why why not just make with us, you know, why why not just make his his presence and existence more his his presence and existence more his his presence and existence more obvious. Um but again, that in a way is obvious. Um but again, that in a way is obvious. Um but again, that in a way is a version of the problem of evil. If God a version of the problem of evil. If God a version of the problem of evil. If God is good, why does he not, you know, is good, why does he not, you know, is good, why does he not, you know, actually actually actually show his existence more, you know, in a show his existence more, you know, in a show his existence more, you know, in a more direct way and so on. So more direct way and so on. So more direct way and so on. So ultimately, I think a lot of the ultimately, I think a lot of the ultimately, I think a lot of the arguments for atheism do come back to to arguments for atheism do come back to to arguments for atheism do come back to to what is the oldest question of all, you what is the oldest question of all, you what is the oldest question of all, you know, why is there evil and suffering in know, why is there evil and suffering in know, why is there evil and suffering in the world and you know, it's the the world and you know, it's the the world and you know, it's the question the Bible deals with question the Bible deals with question the Bible deals with all the time and you know, it's oldest all the time and you know, it's oldest all the time and you know, it's oldest book Job deals with. So I would say book Job deals with. So I would say book Job deals with. So I would say that's probably the one that I have that's probably the one that I have that's probably the one that I have gone over the most with atheists at gone over the most with atheists at gone over the most with atheists at various points. Um and there are no easy various points. Um and there are no easy various points. Um and there are no easy answers. Obviously, there are some answers. Obviously, there are some answers. Obviously, there are some apologetic approaches that may be apologetic approaches that may be apologetic approaches that may be helpful, but inevitably it's a it's a helpful, but inevitably it's a it's a helpful, but inevitably it's a it's a question that is far more than just a question that is far more than just a question that is far more than just a logical question. It's it's a a very logical question. It's it's a a very logical question. It's it's a a very emotional question as well.

emotional question as well. emotional question as well. As a famous apologist once says when As a famous apologist once says when As a famous apologist once says when somebody asked, somebody asked, somebody asked, you know, about pain and suffering, he's you know, about pain and suffering, he's you know, about pain and suffering, he's like, "Well, tell me your story." And like, "Well, tell me your story." And like, "Well, tell me your story." And inevitably, it's not an intellectual inevitably, it's not an intellectual inevitably, it's not an intellectual question. It's about a parent who died question. It's about a parent who died question. It's about a parent who died or a sibling or a spouse or a child. or a sibling or a spouse or a child. or a sibling or a spouse or a child. Um it's always personal. One of the Um it's always personal. One of the Um it's always personal. One of the questions I get quite a bit, questions I get quite a bit, questions I get quite a bit, particularly from next gen, like under particularly from next gen, like under particularly from next gen, like under 35s, is hell. 35s, is hell. 35s, is hell. People just really struggle with the People just really struggle with the People just really struggle with the concept of hell. concept of hell. concept of hell. What What arguments do you hear What What arguments do you hear What What arguments do you hear surrounding, you know, separation of surrounding, you know, separation of surrounding, you know, separation of good and evil and eternity? good and evil and eternity? good and evil and eternity? Honestly, I hear less about this now Honestly, I hear less about this now Honestly, I hear less about this now than I used to. Interestingly, and it than I used to. Interestingly, and it than I used to. Interestingly, and it may partly be because churches are not may partly be because churches are not may partly be because churches are not majoring on hell so much. So it doesn't majoring on hell so much. So it doesn't majoring on hell so much. So it doesn't it's not as much of a it's not as much of a it's not as much of a come up a lot in the dialogue. Yeah. come up a lot in the dialogue. Yeah. come up a lot in the dialogue. Yeah. Yeah, and so and so maybe that's why I Yeah, and so and so maybe that's why I Yeah, and so and so maybe that's why I don't hear that objection so often. But don't hear that objection so often. But don't hear that objection so often. But of course, it where I do hear it of course, it where I do hear it of course, it where I do hear it interestingly is often from people who interestingly is often from people who interestingly is often from people who perhaps lost their faith, ex-Christians, perhaps lost their faith, ex-Christians, perhaps lost their faith, ex-Christians, um people who have deconstructed and um people who have deconstructed and um people who have deconstructed and very frequently very frequently very frequently they are are frequently the ones who they are are frequently the ones who they are are frequently the ones who have a problem with the concept of hell.

have a problem with the concept of hell. have a problem with the concept of hell. And and frankly, I have some problems And and frankly, I have some problems And and frankly, I have some problems with with some instantiations of of hell with with some instantiations of of hell with with some instantiations of of hell um that are given in in some parts of um that are given in in some parts of um that are given in in some parts of the church because actually I think it the church because actually I think it the church because actually I think it can appear very unjust and it can look can appear very unjust and it can look can appear very unjust and it can look like gratuitous sort of, you know, a like gratuitous sort of, you know, a like gratuitous sort of, you know, a gratuitous punishment uh that doesn't gratuitous punishment uh that doesn't gratuitous punishment uh that doesn't seem to seem to seem to uh fit the crime if you like. Um so I I uh fit the crime if you like. Um so I I uh fit the crime if you like. Um so I I think we need to take that very think we need to take that very think we need to take that very seriously. I I mean, where I would begin seriously. I I mean, where I would begin seriously. I I mean, where I would begin with anyone asking that question is with anyone asking that question is with anyone asking that question is well, what do you mean by hell? Because well, what do you mean by hell? Because well, what do you mean by hell? Because I think very often people have picked up I think very often people have picked up I think very often people have picked up an image of hell that is actually not a an image of hell that is actually not a an image of hell that is actually not a biblical one. It's it's got more in biblical one. It's it's got more in biblical one. It's it's got more in common with medieval images of torture common with medieval images of torture common with medieval images of torture chambers and devils with red hot pokers chambers and devils with red hot pokers chambers and devils with red hot pokers and things. And and so the first thing and things. And and so the first thing and things. And and so the first thing you might want to do is to just simply you might want to do is to just simply you might want to do is to just simply interrogate what the person themselves interrogate what the person themselves interrogate what the person themselves believes believes believes or, you know, have the has in their head or, you know, have the has in their head or, you know, have the has in their head that Christians or Christian theology that Christians or Christian theology that Christians or Christian theology teaches about hell. teaches about hell. teaches about hell. And then I'd I'd want to also talk about And then I'd I'd want to also talk about And then I'd I'd want to also talk about heaven because that's sort of the other heaven because that's sort of the other heaven because that's sort of the other side of the coin if you like. And and side of the coin if you like. And and side of the coin if you like. And and again, a lot of people have a again, a lot of people have a again, a lot of people have a I think a I think a I think a some idea of a retirement home where you some idea of a retirement home where you some idea of a retirement home where you play heavenly golf ever or something play heavenly golf ever or something play heavenly golf ever or something like that. And again, I'd want to like that. And again, I'd want to like that. And again, I'd want to to to question that sort of version to to question that sort of version to to question that sort of version because in a sense because in a sense because in a sense when we when we when we that for me that the reason we need to that for me that the reason we need to that for me that the reason we need to talk about about both heaven and hell is talk about about both heaven and hell is talk about about both heaven and hell is because heaven, if it's anything, is the because heaven, if it's anything, is the because heaven, if it's anything, is the kingdom of God.

kingdom of God. kingdom of God. Um and Um and Um and the thing about a kingdom is it has a the thing about a kingdom is it has a the thing about a kingdom is it has a king. king. king. And I've met many non-Christians who And I've met many non-Christians who And I've met many non-Christians who actually I think in the end, if push actually I think in the end, if push actually I think in the end, if push came to shove, came to shove, came to shove, wouldn't necessarily want to live in wouldn't necessarily want to live in wouldn't necessarily want to live in that kingdom. Who who would say, that kingdom. Who who would say, that kingdom. Who who would say, "Actually, I'd rather "Actually, I'd rather "Actually, I'd rather carry on in my own power, my own carry on in my own power, my own carry on in my own power, my own strength. I I don't I'm not really strength. I I don't I'm not really strength. I I don't I'm not really looking for someone to be a king over looking for someone to be a king over looking for someone to be a king over me." me." me." That's obviously in the end of a highly That's obviously in the end of a highly That's obviously in the end of a highly personal thing. It's it's something that personal thing. It's it's something that personal thing. It's it's something that you don't often get to that kind of you don't often get to that kind of you don't often get to that kind of level of level of level of seeing into someone in the course of seeing into someone in the course of seeing into someone in the course of having a sort of a one-hour conversation having a sort of a one-hour conversation having a sort of a one-hour conversation with them necessarily. But ultimately, I with them necessarily. But ultimately, I with them necessarily. But ultimately, I think that's where think that's where think that's where it does the buck stops for some people. it does the buck stops for some people. it does the buck stops for some people. And and I think they have, you know, I And and I think they have, you know, I And and I think they have, you know, I can think of for instance some very can think of for instance some very can think of for instance some very honest passages from atheists like honest passages from atheists like honest passages from atheists like Thomas Nagel who have said, you know, Thomas Nagel who have said, you know, Thomas Nagel who have said, you know, "Well, look, "Well, look, "Well, look, if I'm completely honest, I don't want if I'm completely honest, I don't want if I'm completely honest, I don't want Christianity to be true. I don't want Christianity to be true. I don't want Christianity to be true. I don't want the universe to be like that." the universe to be like that." the universe to be like that." And and I think even Christopher And and I think even Christopher And and I think even Christopher Hitchens, you know, Hitchens, you know, Hitchens, you know, when I've heard him sort of railing when I've heard him sort of railing when I've heard him sort of railing against God, against God, against God, he often rails against this sort of he often rails against this sort of he often rails against this sort of cartoon version of God, this North cartoon version of God, this North cartoon version of God, this North Korean dictator version of God. But I've Korean dictator version of God. But I've Korean dictator version of God. But I've often wondered, "Well, if you were face often wondered, "Well, if you were face often wondered, "Well, if you were face to face with to face with to face with God himself, Christopher, God himself, Christopher, God himself, Christopher, would you want that God? Or would that would you want that God? Or would that would you want that God? Or would that just be another sort of just be another sort of just be another sort of threat to your autonomy at some level?"

threat to your autonomy at some level?" threat to your autonomy at some level?" So I think thinking about it in that way So I think thinking about it in that way So I think thinking about it in that way helps then to frame, "Well, what is helps then to frame, "Well, what is helps then to frame, "Well, what is hell?" Ultimately, I think hell, hell?" Ultimately, I think hell, hell?" Ultimately, I think hell, you know, looking at the picture you know, looking at the picture you know, looking at the picture language that's used in scripture in the language that's used in scripture in the language that's used in scripture in the New New Testament especially, I think New New Testament especially, I think New New Testament especially, I think it's ultimately a separation from God. it's ultimately a separation from God. it's ultimately a separation from God. It's choosing It's choosing It's choosing not to have God. not to have God. not to have God. And in that sense, as C.S. Lewis said, And in that sense, as C.S. Lewis said, And in that sense, as C.S. Lewis said, you know, that the doors of hell are you know, that the doors of hell are you know, that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. And I think that locked from the inside. And I think that locked from the inside. And I think that for me, I think is perhaps a more for me, I think is perhaps a more for me, I think is perhaps a more helpful framing of the whole issue for helpful framing of the whole issue for helpful framing of the whole issue for people who are perhaps wondering where people who are perhaps wondering where people who are perhaps wondering where the justice is and that kind of thing. the justice is and that kind of thing. the justice is and that kind of thing. Yeah, the great divorce. Yeah. C.S. Yeah, the great divorce. Yeah. C.S. Yeah, the great divorce. Yeah. C.S. Lewis really helpful framing. And and, Lewis really helpful framing. And and, Lewis really helpful framing. And and, you know, I echo you. Anybody who thinks you know, I echo you. Anybody who thinks you know, I echo you. Anybody who thinks hell is a great idea probably has some hell is a great idea probably has some hell is a great idea probably has some issues that need to be unpacked. I I issues that need to be unpacked. I I issues that need to be unpacked. I I Yeah, exactly. I I don't know that you Yeah, exactly. I I don't know that you Yeah, exactly. I I don't know that you can be excited about that idea as a can be excited about that idea as a can be excited about that idea as a Christian, even if you accept it, that Christian, even if you accept it, that Christian, even if you accept it, that there will be some kind of separation there will be some kind of separation there will be some kind of separation eternally. eternally. eternally. So, you know, you're on both sides. So, you know, you're on both sides. So, you know, you're on both sides. Well, I mean, you're a Christian who Well, I mean, you're a Christian who Well, I mean, you're a Christian who interviews and sets up debates. This is interviews and sets up debates. This is interviews and sets up debates. This is There are tens of thousands of preachers There are tens of thousands of preachers There are tens of thousands of preachers listening, watching listening, watching listening, watching this. And this. And this. And they're engaged with church and they're engaged with church and they're engaged with church and non-church people on a regular basis. I non-church people on a regular basis. I non-church people on a regular basis. I would love for you, based on your would love for you, based on your would love for you, based on your experience, to identify, if you can, the experience, to identify, if you can, the experience, to identify, if you can, the top three patterns you've observed top three patterns you've observed top three patterns you've observed in in in people who successfully seem to navigate people who successfully seem to navigate people who successfully seem to navigate conversations between Christianity and conversations between Christianity and conversations between Christianity and secular worldviews. Like what are some secular worldviews. Like what are some secular worldviews. Like what are some of the best practices that the people of the best practices that the people of the best practices that the people who are really good at this? And feel who are really good at this? And feel who are really good at this? And feel free, you know, not to be immodest, but free, you know, not to be immodest, but free, you know, not to be immodest, but to draw from your own experience. Hey,

to draw from your own experience. Hey, to draw from your own experience. Hey, on my good days, on my good days, on my good days, when I'm doing this, it tend These when I'm doing this, it tend These when I'm doing this, it tend These conversations tend to go really well and conversations tend to go really well and conversations tend to go really well and maybe someone even changes their mind. maybe someone even changes their mind. maybe someone even changes their mind. Uh you know, what what are what are some Uh you know, what what are what are some Uh you know, what what are what are some of those those best practices? of those those best practices? of those those best practices? I I think, you know, I I think, you know, I I think, you know, at the risk of of these being very at the risk of of these being very at the risk of of these being very obvious, obvious, obvious, one of the most obvious is is that one of the most obvious is is that one of the most obvious is is that listening is absolutely critical. Um I listening is absolutely critical. Um I listening is absolutely critical. Um I think so often we go into conversations think so often we go into conversations think so often we go into conversations in this area with a sort of a a list of in this area with a sort of a a list of in this area with a sort of a a list of arguments and objections that we're arguments and objections that we're arguments and objections that we're going to make. And and we're just really going to make. And and we're just really going to make. And and we're just really waiting for the other person to finish waiting for the other person to finish waiting for the other person to finish speaking so we can say the next thing we speaking so we can say the next thing we speaking so we can say the next thing we we sort of have planned. And and we sort of have planned. And and we sort of have planned. And and actually, I think conversations like actually, I think conversations like actually, I think conversations like that don't go very well. that don't go very well. that don't go very well. Um I think people can tell when you're Um I think people can tell when you're Um I think people can tell when you're not really taking them seriously, when not really taking them seriously, when not really taking them seriously, when you're not really listening. you're not really listening. you're not really listening. Uh so I think we need to practice really Uh so I think we need to practice really Uh so I think we need to practice really listening. And and listening. And and listening. And and some of the best some of the best some of the best people who do that bridging between the people who do that bridging between the people who do that bridging between the Christian and non-Christian world are Christian and non-Christian world are Christian and non-Christian world are are really good listeners. They really are really good listeners. They really are really good listeners. They really hear hear hear and sort of um and sort of um and sort of um feedback to the person what they've feedback to the person what they've feedback to the person what they've heard. They want to make sure that heard. They want to make sure that heard. They want to make sure that they've represented them correctly, that they've represented them correctly, that they've represented them correctly, that they've understood them correctly. I they've understood them correctly. I they've understood them correctly. I mean, I can think of um Sean McDowell is mean, I can think of um Sean McDowell is mean, I can think of um Sean McDowell is does a a wonderful example of this. Sean does a a wonderful example of this. Sean does a a wonderful example of this. Sean is the son of Josh McDowell, himself a a is the son of Josh McDowell, himself a a is the son of Josh McDowell, himself a a well-known apologist. But Sean has well-known apologist. But Sean has well-known apologist. But Sean has really developed a wonderful ministry of really developed a wonderful ministry of really developed a wonderful ministry of his own uh online his own uh online his own uh online uh on YouTube and elsewhere. Not only uh on YouTube and elsewhere. Not only uh on YouTube and elsewhere. Not only kind of teaching apologetics, but also kind of teaching apologetics, but also kind of teaching apologetics, but also really doing really good engagement with really doing really good engagement with really doing really good engagement with non-Christians on his channel. And I non-Christians on his channel. And I non-Christians on his channel. And I just always point to him as a as a just always point to him as a as a just always point to him as a as a wonderful example of how to do listening wonderful example of how to do listening wonderful example of how to do listening really well and sort of

really well and sort of really well and sort of uh make sure that person feels heard and uh make sure that person feels heard and uh make sure that person feels heard and and feels that you've actually and feels that you've actually and feels that you've actually understood and and and and putting their understood and and and and putting their understood and and and and putting their argument back to them. And that that in argument back to them. And that that in argument back to them. And that that in itself is another principle, I think, itself is another principle, I think, itself is another principle, I think, that that can be really helpful. Um that that can be really helpful. Um that that can be really helpful. Um The idea of it's sometimes called The idea of it's sometimes called The idea of it's sometimes called steel-manning the other person's steel-manning the other person's steel-manning the other person's argument. But I think it's really just argument. But I think it's really just argument. But I think it's really just about reflecting that about reflecting that about reflecting that you're not here to knock down a straw you're not here to knock down a straw you're not here to knock down a straw man. Um and that if if if you can man. Um and that if if if you can man. Um and that if if if you can actually actually actually put that person's point of view back to put that person's point of view back to put that person's point of view back to them as well as they could express it them as well as they could express it them as well as they could express it themselves, then I think you've given themselves, then I think you've given themselves, then I think you've given them the confidence to know that them the confidence to know that them the confidence to know that actually you're you're taking them actually you're you're taking them actually you're you're taking them seriously. seriously. seriously. And so I think that's another very And so I think that's another very And so I think that's another very important thing that we could do as important thing that we could do as important thing that we could do as Christian communicators is to really Christian communicators is to really Christian communicators is to really understand the other person's argument understand the other person's argument understand the other person's argument and to be able to reflect it back to and to be able to reflect it back to and to be able to reflect it back to them. And only start to critique it once them. And only start to critique it once them. And only start to critique it once once they're happy that you've really once they're happy that you've really once they're happy that you've really you've really understood it that way. So you've really understood it that way. So you've really understood it that way. So So that's something I I've tried to do So that's something I I've tried to do So that's something I I've tried to do myself sometimes in conversation. Um myself sometimes in conversation. Um myself sometimes in conversation. Um And and very often, you know, when I'm And and very often, you know, when I'm And and very often, you know, when I'm in the conversation, I'm the moderator. in the conversation, I'm the moderator. in the conversation, I'm the moderator. I'm I'm sort of trying to make sure both I'm I'm sort of trying to make sure both I'm I'm sort of trying to make sure both both parties have both parties have both parties have equal say, that both parties, you know, equal say, that both parties, you know, equal say, that both parties, you know, feel that they've been adequately feel that they've been adequately feel that they've been adequately represented. But one of the things I was represented. But one of the things I was represented. But one of the things I was able to do at various points in that was able to do at various points in that was able to do at various points in that was to kind of do that thing of to kind of do that thing of to kind of do that thing of of representing the argument to the of representing the argument to the of representing the argument to the other person. So if if the the Christian other person. So if if the the Christian other person. So if if the the Christian has, you know, has, you know, has, you know, made made a fairly long point uh on made made a fairly long point uh on made made a fairly long point uh on their side, I could sort of take that their side, I could sort of take that their side, I could sort of take that and just and just and just package it up in a, you know, in a way package it up in a, you know, in a way package it up in a, you know, in a way that's helpful for both the the that's helpful for both the the that's helpful for both the the non-Christian and the the listeners as non-Christian and the the listeners as non-Christian and the the listeners as well. And and likewise in the other well. And and likewise in the other well. And and likewise in the other direction.

of of making people feel like they're being making people feel like they're being making people feel like they're being heard in that way. And and I can't heard in that way. And and I can't heard in that way. And and I can't overstate how important that is overstate how important that is overstate how important that is for there to be any fruit in the end in for there to be any fruit in the end in for there to be any fruit in the end in a conversation. a conversation. a conversation. You you can set up these things purely You you can set up these things purely You you can set up these things purely as a sort of bombastic debate, kind of as a sort of bombastic debate, kind of as a sort of bombastic debate, kind of point-scoring exercise. And there's a point-scoring exercise. And there's a point-scoring exercise. And there's a place for, you know, that kind of drama place for, you know, that kind of drama place for, you know, that kind of drama in in certain settings. But I think in in certain settings. But I think in in certain settings. But I think ultimately, very ultimately, very ultimately, very very few people change their mind in very few people change their mind in very few people change their mind in those kind of settings where you're those kind of settings where you're those kind of settings where you're really just sort of taking your really just sort of taking your really just sort of taking your positions and and sort of positions and and sort of positions and and sort of firing volleys over the wall. Um what firing volleys over the wall. Um what firing volleys over the wall. Um what I've really enjoyed when I've hosted I've really enjoyed when I've hosted I've really enjoyed when I've hosted conversations where I really feel people conversations where I really feel people conversations where I really feel people have actually connected on a personal have actually connected on a personal have actually connected on a personal level and the conversation continues level and the conversation continues level and the conversation continues after we shut off the mics and they you after we shut off the mics and they you after we shut off the mics and they you know and friendships develop and and know and friendships develop and and know and friendships develop and and that's where you really see the fruit that's where you really see the fruit that's where you really see the fruit come through. So for me it's it's about come through. So for me it's it's about come through. So for me it's it's about not not not playing into playing into playing into something that's so easy to do in our something that's so easy to do in our something that's so easy to do in our our online social media echo chamber our online social media echo chamber our online social media echo chamber culture where you can simply culture where you can simply culture where you can simply essentially essentially essentially act act act just echo the same platitudes or or just echo the same platitudes or or just echo the same platitudes or or points of view that that people on your points of view that that people on your points of view that that people on your side already believe and you're not side already believe and you're not side already believe and you're not willing to sit down and really listen willing to sit down and really listen willing to sit down and really listen and take notice of someone. And that and take notice of someone. And that and take notice of someone. And that that's a game changer for me and very that's a game changer for me and very that's a game changer for me and very often that can only really be done in often that can only really be done in often that can only really be done in person. It's very hard to replicate that person. It's very hard to replicate that person. It's very hard to replicate that in an online setting. Facebook, Twitter in an online setting. Facebook, Twitter in an online setting. Facebook, Twitter you know those those places they're just you know those those places they're just you know those those places they're just not good places in the end I think to do not good places in the end I think to do not good places in the end I think to do religious dialogue. They they usually go religious dialogue. They they usually go religious dialogue. They they usually go badly when you when you try it there cuz

badly when you when you try it there cuz badly when you when you try it there cuz you you just don't have all the things you you just don't have all the things you you just don't have all the things you normally have in a human you normally have in a human you normally have in a human conversation conversation conversation in that kind of setting. in that kind of setting. in that kind of setting. You started your answer by saying, you You started your answer by saying, you You started your answer by saying, you know, I don't want to say the things know, I don't want to say the things know, I don't want to say the things that are obvious. To to from my that are obvious. To to from my that are obvious. To to from my perspective they're not obvious at all perspective they're not obvious at all perspective they're not obvious at all because I think a lot of apologetics is because I think a lot of apologetics is because I think a lot of apologetics is still still still I'm going to show you exactly why you're I'm going to show you exactly why you're I'm going to show you exactly why you're wrong. Here are five reasons and what wrong. Here are five reasons and what wrong. Here are five reasons and what you're really doing in that setting is you're really doing in that setting is you're really doing in that setting is you're preaching to the choir. You're you're preaching to the choir. You're you're preaching to the choir. You're you're giving more ammunition ammunition you're giving more ammunition ammunition you're giving more ammunition ammunition to combative Christians and they're to combative Christians and they're to combative Christians and they're going to feel self-righteous and going to feel self-righteous and going to feel self-righteous and self-justified but what you're self-justified but what you're self-justified but what you're describing having a describing having a describing having a a dialogue where you really listen to a dialogue where you really listen to a dialogue where you really listen to other people. You can empathize with it. other people. You can empathize with it. other people. You can empathize with it. You can give them their best argument You can give them their best argument You can give them their best argument back to them in a way that they would back to them in a way that they would back to them in a way that they would agree with it to say, oh you really have agree with it to say, oh you really have agree with it to say, oh you really have understood Justin. understood Justin. understood Justin. I think is an extremely difficult skill I think is an extremely difficult skill I think is an extremely difficult skill set and I think if more pastors had it set and I think if more pastors had it set and I think if more pastors had it um we might see different high um we might see different high um we might see different high conversion churches emerge in the US. conversion churches emerge in the US. conversion churches emerge in the US. Now that said the Brits I mean I I I Now that said the Brits I mean I I I Now that said the Brits I mean I I I have someone close to me who has a you have someone close to me who has a you have someone close to me who has a you know from England and I'm like you know from England and I'm like you know from England and I'm like you automatically get 10 points in IQ right automatically get 10 points in IQ right automatically get 10 points in IQ right there just for having a British accent there just for having a British accent there just for having a British accent but Very unfair. Yeah, it is very but Very unfair. Yeah, it is very but Very unfair. Yeah, it is very unfair.

unfair. unfair. Uh Uh Uh one thing I really appreciate. I'm a big one thing I really appreciate. I'm a big one thing I really appreciate. I'm a big Alpha fan. We've run it for years at our Alpha fan. We've run it for years at our Alpha fan. We've run it for years at our church. There is something I don't know church. There is something I don't know church. There is something I don't know whether it's the British demeanor whether it's the British demeanor whether it's the British demeanor or what it is the culture that was or what it is the culture that was or what it is the culture that was created at HTB Holy Trinity Brompton or created at HTB Holy Trinity Brompton or created at HTB Holy Trinity Brompton or what it is what it is what it is but there is a a genuine respect and but there is a a genuine respect and but there is a a genuine respect and curiosity that appears to be curiosity that appears to be curiosity that appears to be transcultural. I mean Alpha's working in transcultural. I mean Alpha's working in transcultural. I mean Alpha's working in the UK, around the world, in the United the UK, around the world, in the United the UK, around the world, in the United States, in Canada, in the Commonwealth States, in Canada, in the Commonwealth States, in Canada, in the Commonwealth and beyond and beyond and beyond that is very that is very that is very compelling. It takes hardened atheists, compelling. It takes hardened atheists, compelling. It takes hardened atheists, people from different worldviews and people from different worldviews and people from different worldviews and religions and and honors them and in the religions and and honors them and in the religions and and honors them and in the process many many many process many many many process many many many become followers of Jesus. become followers of Jesus. become followers of Jesus. I guess there's a question under that I guess there's a question under that I guess there's a question under that Justin about disposition because so much Justin about disposition because so much Justin about disposition because so much of apologetics you know you mentioned of apologetics you know you mentioned of apologetics you know you mentioned the classic definition correct in Greek the classic definition correct in Greek the classic definition correct in Greek is defense is defense is defense but it makes us defensive. Do you do you but it makes us defensive. Do you do you but it makes us defensive. Do you do you know what I mean? That's not what I pick know what I mean? That's not what I pick know what I mean? That's not what I pick up in you in your work. That is not what up in you in your work. That is not what up in you in your work. That is not what I hear you saying. So I'm wondering if I hear you saying. So I'm wondering if I hear you saying. So I'm wondering if you have any tutelage or coaching for you have any tutelage or coaching for you have any tutelage or coaching for leaders on the tone and the leaders on the tone and the leaders on the tone and the culture the tone they set the culture culture the tone they set the culture culture the tone they set the culture they create the they create the they create the atmosphere atmosphere atmosphere that they foster when having those that they foster when having those that they foster when having those conversations.

conversations. conversations. Well I think it it's great that you Well I think it it's great that you Well I think it it's great that you mentioned Alpha and we've run many Alpha mentioned Alpha and we've run many Alpha mentioned Alpha and we've run many Alpha courses at our church and it it has courses at our church and it it has courses at our church and it it has simply been the most successful simply been the most successful simply been the most successful evangelistic you know evangelistic you know evangelistic you know course Yeah, if we had a better one we'd course Yeah, if we had a better one we'd course Yeah, if we had a better one we'd go with it. We've never found a better go with it. We've never found a better go with it. We've never found a better one. one. one. Exactly. But the key to the Alpha course Exactly. But the key to the Alpha course Exactly. But the key to the Alpha course actually I think is is actually the way actually I think is is actually the way actually I think is is actually the way it happens and that is essentially it's it happens and that is essentially it's it happens and that is essentially it's centered around a meal around people centered around a meal around people centered around a meal around people getting to know each other and and and getting to know each other and and and getting to know each other and and and then that leads into the talk and then then that leads into the talk and then then that leads into the talk and then the discussion and everything else. And the discussion and everything else. And the discussion and everything else. And it's of course it's over the course of it's of course it's over the course of it's of course it's over the course of developing relationships that people developing relationships that people developing relationships that people really start to trust and to open up and really start to trust and to open up and really start to trust and to open up and to talk at a much more honest level to talk at a much more honest level to talk at a much more honest level about you know sometimes there are about you know sometimes there are about you know sometimes there are intellectual issues that are that are on intellectual issues that are that are on intellectual issues that are that are on the table but very often you get beyond the table but very often you get beyond the table but very often you get beyond those to emotional issues to the sort of those to emotional issues to the sort of those to emotional issues to the sort of the story of the people who are sitting the story of the people who are sitting the story of the people who are sitting around the table or whatever. And I around the table or whatever. And I around the table or whatever. And I think that's think that's think that's again that's something it's very hard to again that's something it's very hard to again that's something it's very hard to do outside of that do outside of that do outside of that face-to-face human level. And for me face-to-face human level. And for me face-to-face human level. And for me that's really important and church that's really important and church that's really important and church has this extraordinary advantage over has this extraordinary advantage over has this extraordinary advantage over most other things that are on offer at most other things that are on offer at most other things that are on offer at the moment in our culture which is that the moment in our culture which is that the moment in our culture which is that it's it's still face-to-face. It's it's it's it's still face-to-face. It's it's it's it's still face-to-face. It's it's about genuine human community. And I about genuine human community. And I about genuine human community. And I think that that is an extraordinary think that that is an extraordinary think that that is an extraordinary thing and we should play into that as thing and we should play into that as thing and we should play into that as far as possible. So I would want to far as possible. So I would want to far as possible. So I would want to encourage you know that there is a place encourage you know that there is a place encourage you know that there is a place for you know that more as I say for you know that more as I say for you know that more as I say intellectual apologetics and Alpha does intellectual apologetics and Alpha does intellectual apologetics and Alpha does a bit of that along the way you know it a bit of that along the way you know it a bit of that along the way you know it helps people to see why they might have helps people to see why they might have helps people to see why they might have good reason to believe that the Bible is good reason to believe that the Bible is good reason to believe that the Bible is reliable and

reliable and reliable and why it might make sense to believe in why it might make sense to believe in why it might make sense to believe in God and so on but but ultimately I think God and so on but but ultimately I think God and so on but but ultimately I think it rightly recognizes that people are it rightly recognizes that people are it rightly recognizes that people are not just brains on legs that that not just brains on legs that that not just brains on legs that that they're looking for relationship. they're looking for relationship. they're looking for relationship. They're looking for a sense of They're looking for a sense of They're looking for a sense of belonging. belonging. belonging. And ultimately um And ultimately um And ultimately um a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the objections that are presented can can objections that are presented can can objections that are presented can can often um often um often um can often be more of a smoke screen if can often be more of a smoke screen if can often be more of a smoke screen if I'm honest for I'm honest for I'm honest for more more emotional reasons why people more more emotional reasons why people more more emotional reasons why people ultimately reject faith and when you get ultimately reject faith and when you get ultimately reject faith and when you get to those and you probably only get to to those and you probably only get to to those and you probably only get to those sort of on week five or six or those sort of on week five or six or those sort of on week five or six or something of the Alpha course something of the Alpha course something of the Alpha course that's when I think you really start to that's when I think you really start to that's when I think you really start to see this fruit happening and so for me see this fruit happening and so for me see this fruit happening and so for me that's um that that's that's um that that's that's um that that's and I think church leaders absolutely and I think church leaders absolutely and I think church leaders absolutely need to recognize that need need to need to recognize that need need to need to recognize that need need to recognize that ultimately recognize that ultimately recognize that ultimately we're dealing with um we're dealing with um we're dealing with um people who are people who are people who are body mind and soul and body mind and soul and body mind and soul and uh we shouldn't ignore the mind because uh we shouldn't ignore the mind because uh we shouldn't ignore the mind because for a lot of people they will need that for a lot of people they will need that for a lot of people they will need that intellectual approach and working things intellectual approach and working things intellectual approach and working things out but actually as I said earlier most out but actually as I said earlier most out but actually as I said earlier most people actually people actually people actually intuit things more than work them out on intuit things more than work them out on intuit things more than work them out on a purely rational level and and people a purely rational level and and people a purely rational level and and people can soon sense can soon sense can soon sense whether what you're offering is is the whether what you're offering is is the whether what you're offering is is the real thing or not. And and so that's why real thing or not. And and so that's why real thing or not. And and so that's why you have to you have to you have to bring it within the context of the bring it within the context of the bring it within the context of the church community. You've got to kind of church community. You've got to kind of church community. You've got to kind of lay it out there.

lay it out there. lay it out there. This is this is what we're offering. This is this is what we're offering. This is this is what we're offering. We're offering this life in all its We're offering this life in all its We're offering this life in all its fullness. You can you'll soon be able to fullness. You can you'll soon be able to fullness. You can you'll soon be able to tell whether it's the real deal or not tell whether it's the real deal or not tell whether it's the real deal or not by the way we're treating each other, by the way we're treating each other, by the way we're treating each other, the way we're treating you, the way the way we're treating you, the way the way we're treating you, the way we're we're we're we're we're carrying on this this whole we're we're carrying on this this whole we're we're carrying on this this whole relationship. So for me all of that relationship. So for me all of that relationship. So for me all of that is hugely important and and makes a big is hugely important and and makes a big is hugely important and and makes a big difference. difference. difference. I think you're right. People know over a I think you're right. People know over a I think you're right. People know over a meal and over face-to-face contact meal and over face-to-face contact meal and over face-to-face contact whether they are loved whether they're whether they are loved whether they're whether they are loved whether they're accepted or whether they're being accepted or whether they're being accepted or whether they're being quietly judged. And I think that's a big quietly judged. And I think that's a big quietly judged. And I think that's a big issue. issue. issue. Boy, time has flown. Um couple more Boy, time has flown. Um couple more Boy, time has flown. Um couple more questions. questions. questions. You know You know You know I think you've got a section on this in I think you've got a section on this in I think you've got a section on this in the book where you talk about the the the book where you talk about the the the book where you talk about the the absolute flood of information absolute flood of information absolute flood of information we're getting now, right? Apologetics 25 we're getting now, right? Apologetics 25 we're getting now, right? Apologetics 25 years ago you had to buy a book or go on years ago you had to buy a book or go on years ago you had to buy a book or go on to some chat forum on dial-up. Now to some chat forum on dial-up. Now to some chat forum on dial-up. Now information's everywhere. You can get information's everywhere. You can get information's everywhere. You can get lost in the YouTube rabbit hole uh etc. lost in the YouTube rabbit hole uh etc. lost in the YouTube rabbit hole uh etc. etc. Um etc. Um etc. Um any clues as to how to cut through the any clues as to how to cut through the any clues as to how to cut through the noise and really connect with meaning, noise and really connect with meaning, noise and really connect with meaning, wisdom, eternal things wisdom, eternal things wisdom, eternal things when people are confronted minute by when people are confronted minute by when people are confronted minute by minute with a deluge of more information minute with a deluge of more information minute with a deluge of more information than they can possibly consume?

than they can possibly consume? than they can possibly consume? Yeah, I I I think that that is what Yeah, I I I think that that is what Yeah, I I I think that that is what we're competing with and very often we're competing with and very often we're competing with and very often I don't think what people need I don't think what people need I don't think what people need necessarily is just more content and necessarily is just more content and necessarily is just more content and that's sometimes the danger of the that's sometimes the danger of the that's sometimes the danger of the church is just sort of delivering them church is just sort of delivering them church is just sort of delivering them yet another video or podcast or yet another video or podcast or yet another video or podcast or whatever. Um I mean I I create that whatever. Um I mean I I create that whatever. Um I mean I I create that stuff so in a sense I'm stuff so in a sense I'm stuff so in a sense I'm I'm I'm the worst offender here but the I'm I'm the worst offender here but the I'm I'm the worst offender here but the the the I suppose I suppose what the the the I suppose I suppose what the the the I suppose I suppose what the church needs to do is is to remind church needs to do is is to remind church needs to do is is to remind people of the depth that's there. There people of the depth that's there. There people of the depth that's there. There there's there's there's we we what we're really overwhelmed with we we what we're really overwhelmed with we we what we're really overwhelmed with now is a lot of shallow now is a lot of shallow now is a lot of shallow media I think and I think we're all media I think and I think we're all media I think and I think we're all aware of that when it comes to the aware of that when it comes to the aware of that when it comes to the shortening attention spans we have when shortening attention spans we have when shortening attention spans we have when it comes to our online consumption and it comes to our online consumption and it comes to our online consumption and everything else. everything else. everything else. And the danger is I suppose that the And the danger is I suppose that the And the danger is I suppose that the church can sometimes play into that or church can sometimes play into that or church can sometimes play into that or can sort of can sort of can sort of go along with that to the extent that we go along with that to the extent that we go along with that to the extent that we end up just sort of end up just sort of end up just sort of sounding or or or representing things sounding or or or representing things sounding or or or representing things that that are as shallow as the rest of that that are as shallow as the rest of that that are as shallow as the rest of the sort of consumerist mentality that's the sort of consumerist mentality that's the sort of consumerist mentality that's already on offer. And I don't think already on offer. And I don't think already on offer. And I don't think people just need more noise at this people just need more noise at this people just need more noise at this point. I think they need to be I think point. I think they need to be I think point. I think they need to be I think what people are looking for is is a kind what people are looking for is is a kind what people are looking for is is a kind of a depth.

of a depth. of a depth. So it's interesting that while you've So it's interesting that while you've So it's interesting that while you've got the sort of got the sort of got the sort of the rise of this very short form the rise of this very short form the rise of this very short form attention grabbing clickbait media attention grabbing clickbait media attention grabbing clickbait media you've also got people wanting these you've also got people wanting these you've also got people wanting these three-hour long Joe Rogan type three-hour long Joe Rogan type three-hour long Joe Rogan type conversations on on podcast. There's conversations on on podcast. There's conversations on on podcast. There's I've noticed a lot of people gravitating I've noticed a lot of people gravitating I've noticed a lot of people gravitating towards quite serious things quite towards quite serious things quite towards quite serious things quite challenging things. challenging things. challenging things. Um and and I think that that we need to Um and and I think that that we need to Um and and I think that that we need to be aware that that be aware that that be aware that that it would be a mistake to simply try and it would be a mistake to simply try and it would be a mistake to simply try and capture capture capture that that sort of very surface level that that sort of very surface level that that sort of very surface level shallow kind of shallow kind of shallow kind of way of a way of engaging people when way of a way of engaging people when way of a way of engaging people when actually actually actually probably the greatest fruit to be reaped probably the greatest fruit to be reaped probably the greatest fruit to be reaped in a sense is the people who are looking in a sense is the people who are looking in a sense is the people who are looking for the deeper things and that's where for the deeper things and that's where for the deeper things and that's where I've sort of been trying to I've sort of been trying to I've sort of been trying to put my my efforts when it comes to the put my my efforts when it comes to the put my my efforts when it comes to the media I produce is to kind of give a bit media I produce is to kind of give a bit media I produce is to kind of give a bit of a deeper understanding of what's of a deeper understanding of what's of a deeper understanding of what's going on in our culture and and invite going on in our culture and and invite going on in our culture and and invite people into something that is not just people into something that is not just people into something that is not just more information but is actually more information but is actually more information but is actually inviting them to inviting them to inviting them to a community to um a community to um a community to um a a pattern of living a a pattern of living a a pattern of living that makes a difference and and this is that makes a difference and and this is that makes a difference and and this is why I'm so glad to see more and more why I'm so glad to see more and more why I'm so glad to see more and more Christians I think becoming aware that Christians I think becoming aware that Christians I think becoming aware that we don't just need another program. We we don't just need another program. We we don't just need another program. We need something that actually people go need something that actually people go need something that actually people go and do. A community that they will and do. A community that they will and do. A community that they will become part of become part of become part of that they will actually start praying that they will actually start praying that they will actually start praying rather than just being fed, you know, rather than just being fed, you know, rather than just being fed, you know, however many videos on the art of however many videos on the art of however many videos on the art of praying or whatever it is. And and for praying or whatever it is. And and for praying or whatever it is. And and for me that's that's that's the absolutely me that's that's that's the absolutely me that's that's that's the absolutely essential thing cuz people are desperate essential thing cuz people are desperate essential thing cuz people are desperate I think to

I think to I think to well, to to find something meaningful well, to to find something meaningful well, to to find something meaningful again in in a meaning crisis. And again in in a meaning crisis. And again in in a meaning crisis. And that that information overload I think that that information overload I think that that information overload I think is part of the problem is that we've is part of the problem is that we've is part of the problem is that we've we we we we we we've been given so many options we we we've been given so many options we we we've been given so many options now. There are so many stories on offer now. There are so many stories on offer now. There are so many stories on offer about how you can live your life about about how you can live your life about about how you can live your life about the different ways in which we could do the different ways in which we could do the different ways in which we could do that that people I don't and and it it's that that people I don't and and it it's that that people I don't and and it it's come into a a world where there was once come into a a world where there was once come into a a world where there was once an overarching story, a narrative that an overarching story, a narrative that an overarching story, a narrative that that by and large did make sense of that by and large did make sense of that by and large did make sense of people's lives, the Christian story. people's lives, the Christian story. people's lives, the Christian story. But as that sort of got swept aside for But as that sort of got swept aside for But as that sort of got swept aside for all the reasons we mentioned earlier, all the reasons we mentioned earlier, all the reasons we mentioned earlier, it's not been replaced by this sort of it's not been replaced by this sort of it's not been replaced by this sort of oasis of science and reason. It's oasis of science and reason. It's oasis of science and reason. It's actually been replaced by all kinds of actually been replaced by all kinds of actually been replaced by all kinds of other quasi-religious stories. other quasi-religious stories. other quasi-religious stories. And we are drowning in them now and And we are drowning in them now and And we are drowning in them now and there's stories on the left around maybe there's stories on the left around maybe there's stories on the left around maybe it may be sexuality and gender and it may be sexuality and gender and it may be sexuality and gender and identity politics that may become identity politics that may become identity politics that may become people's new kind of story that they use people's new kind of story that they use people's new kind of story that they use to make sense of their life. It might be to make sense of their life. It might be to make sense of their life. It might be sort of political mythologies on the sort of political mythologies on the sort of political mythologies on the right that suddenly take the place of right that suddenly take the place of right that suddenly take the place of the God story.

the God story. the God story. But the point is we're all sort of But the point is we're all sort of But the point is we're all sort of I I think we're all burned out by the I I think we're all burned out by the I I think we're all burned out by the by these culture wars that this creates, by these culture wars that this creates, by these culture wars that this creates, especially younger people and I think especially younger people and I think especially younger people and I think again again again the reason that the reason that the reason that you know, as you've got a you know, as you've got a you know, as you've got a Gen Z sort of, you know, essentially Gen Z sort of, you know, essentially Gen Z sort of, you know, essentially addicted to smartphones and and addicted to smartphones and and addicted to smartphones and and and these rising rates of mental health and these rising rates of mental health and these rising rates of mental health problems and so on, it's it's all part problems and so on, it's it's all part problems and so on, it's it's all part of this wider meaning crisis. And the of this wider meaning crisis. And the of this wider meaning crisis. And the church therefore has to somehow offer church therefore has to somehow offer church therefore has to somehow offer something that is something that is something that is better than that. And I can't think of better than that. And I can't think of better than that. And I can't think of and I think that's why we're seeing an and I think that's why we're seeing an and I think that's why we're seeing an an openness, this new openness that I've an openness, this new openness that I've an openness, this new openness that I've mentioned already to the value of faith mentioned already to the value of faith mentioned already to the value of faith again, to the value of the Christian again, to the value of the Christian again, to the value of the Christian story. Some of these intellectuals, story. Some of these intellectuals, story. Some of these intellectuals, influencers online who are starting to influencers online who are starting to influencers online who are starting to take that seriously and present it to take that seriously and present it to take that seriously and present it to their audiences again because they're their audiences again because they're their audiences again because they're seeing the meaning crisis and and they seeing the meaning crisis and and they seeing the meaning crisis and and they can see that simply pumping more can see that simply pumping more can see that simply pumping more information, more technology, more information, more technology, more information, more technology, more science, more politics into it is not science, more politics into it is not science, more politics into it is not going to help anybody. going to help anybody. going to help anybody. And so they're inviting them back into And so they're inviting them back into And so they're inviting them back into to to actually a story and and the to to actually a story and and the to to actually a story and and the challenge for the church is how to to challenge for the church is how to to challenge for the church is how to to take what some of these prophets from take what some of these prophets from take what some of these prophets from outside the church are pointing people outside the church are pointing people outside the church are pointing people towards and saying, "Now step inside.

towards and saying, "Now step inside. towards and saying, "Now step inside. Don't just look at it in theory. Don't Don't just look at it in theory. Don't Don't just look at it in theory. Don't just listen to a podcast or watch a just listen to a podcast or watch a just listen to a podcast or watch a video channel. video channel. video channel. Try church for real. Try and see whether Try church for real. Try and see whether Try church for real. Try and see whether this actually may do something that that this actually may do something that that this actually may do something that that gives you a completely different gives you a completely different gives you a completely different perspective on how to live life. And for perspective on how to live life. And for perspective on how to live life. And for me that's the great challenge of the me that's the great challenge of the me that's the great challenge of the church to to step up in an age when church to to step up in an age when church to to step up in an age when people I think are ready to hear the people I think are ready to hear the people I think are ready to hear the story again because story again because story again because the other stories they've been told the other stories they've been told the other stories they've been told just, you know, have have become so just, you know, have have become so just, you know, have have become so thin, superficial, shallow thin, superficial, shallow thin, superficial, shallow that that they're ready for something that that they're ready for something that that they're ready for something bigger and better. bigger and better. bigger and better. It's actually very refreshing to hear It's actually very refreshing to hear It's actually very refreshing to hear because I think the temptation when because I think the temptation when because I think the temptation when you're leading a church can be I got to you're leading a church can be I got to you're leading a church can be I got to get shorter, shallower, more sound get shorter, shallower, more sound get shorter, shallower, more sound bitey. And I agree with you bitey. And I agree with you bitey. And I agree with you that taking the road less traveled, that taking the road less traveled, that taking the road less traveled, going deeper, going deeper, going deeper, doing the hard work, listening, doing the hard work, listening, doing the hard work, listening, um embracing, having longer meaningful um embracing, having longer meaningful um embracing, having longer meaningful dialogues. You're right. I mean, we live dialogues. You're right. I mean, we live dialogues. You're right. I mean, we live in the era of TikTok and Joe Rogan, the in the era of TikTok and Joe Rogan, the in the era of TikTok and Joe Rogan, the era of reels and Jordan Peterson.

era of reels and Jordan Peterson. era of reels and Jordan Peterson. And the two seem diametrically opposed And the two seem diametrically opposed And the two seem diametrically opposed or like the longer content is or like the longer content is or like the longer content is outdated, but actually when you really outdated, but actually when you really outdated, but actually when you really look at engagement, now the longer stuff look at engagement, now the longer stuff look at engagement, now the longer stuff really does resonate if it's good. really does resonate if it's good. really does resonate if it's good. If it's good. If it's good. If it's good. Yeah. And Yeah. And Yeah. And man, the church should be able to do man, the church should be able to do man, the church should be able to do that extremely well. that extremely well. that extremely well. Right, really. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right, really. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right, really. Absolutely. Absolutely. Justin, I got to a fraction of my Justin, I got to a fraction of my Justin, I got to a fraction of my questions. Is there anything we haven't questions. Is there anything we haven't questions. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you would like to touched on that you would like to touched on that you would like to mention? And we'll point to the book and mention? And we'll point to the book and mention? And we'll point to the book and everything, but everything, but everything, but anything topically that we haven't anything topically that we haven't anything topically that we haven't touched on that you think is of note? touched on that you think is of note? touched on that you think is of note? I I was only going to mention, you know, I I was only going to mention, you know, I I was only going to mention, you know, we we've talked about some of these we we've talked about some of these we we've talked about some of these interesting intellectuals, prophets from interesting intellectuals, prophets from interesting intellectuals, prophets from outside the church pointing people back outside the church pointing people back outside the church pointing people back to the value of religion as as new to the value of religion as as new to the value of religion as as new atheism has waned. atheism has waned. atheism has waned. And I think there are some people as I And I think there are some people as I And I think there are some people as I say who who are using it for say who who are using it for say who who are using it for sort of political ends. They they want sort of political ends. They they want sort of political ends. They they want Christian culture but they don't Christian culture but they don't Christian culture but they don't necessarily want Jesus. necessarily want Jesus. necessarily want Jesus. But it's interesting cuz in But it's interesting cuz in But it's interesting cuz in I think there there is a real spectrum I think there there is a real spectrum I think there there is a real spectrum here and and what I'm really excited by here and and what I'm really excited by here and and what I'm really excited by is to see people who are also jumping in is to see people who are also jumping in is to see people who are also jumping in with both feet, not just sort of with both feet, not just sort of with both feet, not just sort of agnostics sort of tentatively on the agnostics sort of tentatively on the agnostics sort of tentatively on the edge of church, but people adult edge of church, but people adult edge of church, but people adult converts who I'm increasingly meeting converts who I'm increasingly meeting converts who I'm increasingly meeting today who are are have found that today who are are have found that today who are are have found that actually the Christian story has made actually the Christian story has made actually the Christian story has made sense of their life. And I'm I'm sense of their life. And I'm I'm sense of their life. And I'm I'm thinking of people like celebrated thinking of people like celebrated thinking of people like celebrated author and poet here in the UK, Paul author and poet here in the UK, Paul author and poet here in the UK, Paul Kingsnorth, Kingsnorth, Kingsnorth, who, you know, who, you know, who, you know, has an extraordinary following has an extraordinary following has an extraordinary following as a

as a as a poet and author poet and author poet and author and just a few years ago announced his and just a few years ago announced his and just a few years ago announced his adult conversion to Christianity adult conversion to Christianity adult conversion to Christianity coming into the Eastern Orthodox stream. coming into the Eastern Orthodox stream. coming into the Eastern Orthodox stream. And And And and I see him, I see Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I see him, I see Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I see him, I see Ayaan Hirsi Ali, you know, arguably the most famous you know, arguably the most famous you know, arguably the most famous female atheist in the world female atheist in the world female atheist in the world announcing her conversion just over a announcing her conversion just over a announcing her conversion just over a year ago. And and again, year ago. And and again, year ago. And and again, I sense that something is happening. I sense that something is happening. I sense that something is happening. That it's not just that people are That it's not just that people are That it's not just that people are talking in different ways, talking in different ways, talking in different ways, but actually I'm seeing some quite but actually I'm seeing some quite but actually I'm seeing some quite extraordinary examples of people taking extraordinary examples of people taking extraordinary examples of people taking the plunge as well. So I I just want to the plunge as well. So I I just want to the plunge as well. So I I just want to I suppose encourage any church I suppose encourage any church I suppose encourage any church leader listening, we can often leader listening, we can often leader listening, we can often get quite cynical get quite cynical get quite cynical about the state of the church and about about the state of the church and about about the state of the church and about the state of culture and there's often the state of culture and there's often the state of culture and there's often very good reason to be. very good reason to be. very good reason to be. But I think God is always doing But I think God is always doing But I think God is always doing something new and I think there are something new and I think there are something new and I think there are actually some really interesting actually some really interesting actually some really interesting opportunities opening up. And we just opportunities opening up. And we just opportunities opening up. And we just need to try and be faithful in need to try and be faithful in need to try and be faithful in in in if there is a sort of in in if there is a sort of in in if there is a sort of if that sea of faith that I talked about if that sea of faith that I talked about if that sea of faith that I talked about at the beginning has gone out a long at the beginning has gone out a long at the beginning has gone out a long way, well, way, well, way, well, it could come back in again and that's it could come back in again and that's it could come back in again and that's that's the point of tides, you know. And that's the point of tides, you know. And that's the point of tides, you know. And and I I just think the church needs to and I I just think the church needs to and I I just think the church needs to be ready for the fact that we might be be ready for the fact that we might be be ready for the fact that we might be seeing the turning of that tide at the seeing the turning of that tide at the seeing the turning of that tide at the moment and people are ready to to hear moment and people are ready to to hear moment and people are ready to to hear the story again.

the story again. the story again. I would love nothing more than for that I would love nothing more than for that I would love nothing more than for that to be the case, Justin. Well, the book to be the case, Justin. Well, the book to be the case, Justin. Well, the book is called The Surprising Rebirth of is called The Surprising Rebirth of is called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief. It's available everywhere. Tell Belief. It's available everywhere. Tell Belief. It's available everywhere. Tell us more about where people can find you us more about where people can find you us more about where people can find you online these days, Justin. What are you online these days, Justin. What are you online these days, Justin. What are you up to? up to? up to? Well, you can find me on YouTube. Well, you can find me on YouTube. Well, you can find me on YouTube. There's a channel called Justin There's a channel called Justin There's a channel called Justin Brierley. My podcast series Brierley. My podcast series Brierley. My podcast series has it's been great to engage with a lot has it's been great to engage with a lot has it's been great to engage with a lot of new listeners that way. It's also of new listeners that way. It's also of new listeners that way. It's also called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. So that's another place you can in God. So that's another place you can in God. So that's another place you can find me. find me. find me. I'm on social media, I'm on social media, I'm on social media, Twitter, Twitter, Twitter, Instagram, all the usual places. But if Instagram, all the usual places. But if Instagram, all the usual places. But if you want links to all of that plus the you want links to all of that plus the you want links to all of that plus the book, plus the podcast, my website is book, plus the podcast, my website is book, plus the podcast, my website is simply justinbrierley.com. simply justinbrierley.com. simply justinbrierley.com. Well, I've really appreciated your work, Well, I've really appreciated your work, Well, I've really appreciated your work, your interviews, the great work that your interviews, the great work that your interviews, the great work that you're doing on behalf of all of us. you're doing on behalf of all of us. you're doing on behalf of all of us. Thank you for that and thank you for Thank you for that and thank you for Thank you for that and thank you for sharing with us today, Justin. sharing with us today, Justin. sharing with us today, Justin. Been an absolute pleasure, Carrie. Thank Been an absolute pleasure, Carrie. Thank Been an absolute pleasure, Carrie. Thank you.