Are You Marketing Revival? The Problem with Mixed Motives and Social Media in Church Leaders

Hi friends, David Kinnaman here. I'm Hi friends, David Kinnaman here. I'm kicking over Carey Studio just for a kicking over Carey Studio just for a kicking over Carey Studio just for a couple minutes before today's podcast to couple minutes before today's podcast to couple minutes before today's podcast to give you a quick glimpse into what we're give you a quick glimpse into what we're give you a quick glimpse into what we're seeing here at Barna. So, thanks for seeing here at Barna. So, thanks for seeing here at Barna. So, thanks for joining the podcast and we'll get to the joining the podcast and we'll get to the joining the podcast and we'll get to the show in just a minute. We want to talk show in just a minute. We want to talk show in just a minute. We want to talk about what we're learning in the state about what we're learning in the state about what we're learning in the state of the church research. Actually, we'll of the church research. Actually, we'll of the church research. Actually, we'll be looking today at the state of today's be looking today at the state of today's be looking today at the state of today's church leaders, specifically pastors and church leaders, specifically pastors and church leaders, specifically pastors and their self-reported vocational their self-reported vocational their self-reported vocational stability. Do they want to stay in the stability. Do they want to stay in the stability. Do they want to stay in the jobs that they're in? So, for several jobs that they're in? So, for several jobs that they're in? So, for several years we've been tracking how many years we've been tracking how many years we've been tracking how many pastors have seriously considered pastors have seriously considered pastors have seriously considered quitting full-time ministry. That quitting full-time ministry. That quitting full-time ministry. That question became especially urgent during question became especially urgent during question became especially urgent during the pandemic as the cumulative pressures the pandemic as the cumulative pressures the pandemic as the cumulative pressures of recent years had mounted. All the of recent years had mounted. All the of recent years had mounted. All the things that we endured as leaders, things that we endured as leaders, things that we endured as leaders, especially in 2020 and 2021. In fact, by especially in 2020 and 2021. In fact, by especially in 2020 and 2021. In fact, by 2022 we saw the highest levels that we 2022 we saw the highest levels that we 2022 we saw the highest levels that we had ever recorded. 42% of pastors had ever recorded. 42% of pastors had ever recorded. 42% of pastors in March of 2022 and 41% in September of in March of 2022 and 41% in September of in March of 2022 and 41% in September of 2022 said they had seriously considered 2022 said they had seriously considered 2022 said they had seriously considered leaving full-time ministry. And so, leaving full-time ministry. And so, leaving full-time ministry. And so, we've been seeing some really we've been seeing some really we've been seeing some really interesting trends related to that. That interesting trends related to that. That interesting trends related to that. That number has been declining. That is good number has been declining. That is good number has been declining. That is good news. It went to 33% in 2023, to 31% in news. It went to 33% in 2023, to 31% in news. It went to 33% in 2023, to 31% in 2024, and I'm very happy to report that 2024, and I'm very happy to report that 2024, and I'm very happy to report that it is down to 24% it is down to 24% it is down to 24% in December of 2024. So, pastors are in December of 2024. So, pastors are in December of 2024. So, pastors are telling us that they're doing better.

telling us that they're doing better. telling us that they're doing better. Now, listen, that is still too high a Now, listen, that is still too high a Now, listen, that is still too high a number. One in every four pastors tell number. One in every four pastors tell number. One in every four pastors tell us that they are still considering us that they are still considering us that they are still considering leaving full-time ministry. leaving full-time ministry. leaving full-time ministry. And this new data still could look at And this new data still could look at And this new data still could look at the the the positive here and say the the the positive here and say the the the positive here and say that this suggests that we're in a that this suggests that we're in a that this suggests that we're in a moment of opportunity where intentional moment of opportunity where intentional moment of opportunity where intentional support, healthy expectations, and support, healthy expectations, and support, healthy expectations, and shared responsibility could help sustain shared responsibility could help sustain shared responsibility could help sustain pastors for the long haul. And again, pastors for the long haul. And again, pastors for the long haul. And again, lot to celebrate. We're actually in the lot to celebrate. We're actually in the lot to celebrate. We're actually in the midst of a very spiritually open moment. midst of a very spiritually open moment. midst of a very spiritually open moment. So, I think pastors are seeing some of So, I think pastors are seeing some of So, I think pastors are seeing some of the the wind return to their sails. But, the the wind return to their sails. But, the the wind return to their sails. But, this raises some really critical this raises some really critical this raises some really critical questions for us as leaders. So, first questions for us as leaders. So, first questions for us as leaders. So, first of all, how are you? Where are you when of all, how are you? Where are you when of all, how are you? Where are you when it comes to this question about your it comes to this question about your it comes to this question about your sustainability, your your endurance, sustainability, your your endurance, sustainability, your your endurance, your resilience for the long haul? Do your resilience for the long haul? Do your resilience for the long haul? Do you have a safe place, safe places to you have a safe place, safe places to you have a safe place, safe places to talk about how you're really doing? And talk about how you're really doing? And talk about how you're really doing? And and what is sustaining you in your and what is sustaining you in your and what is sustaining you in your ministry these days? These are questions ministry these days? These are questions ministry these days? These are questions that we should all be asking as leaders. that we should all be asking as leaders. that we should all be asking as leaders. So, the team here at Barna So, the team here at Barna So, the team here at Barna and I, along with our friends at Carey and I, along with our friends at Carey and I, along with our friends at Carey Nieuwhof's organization, we pray for you Nieuwhof's organization, we pray for you Nieuwhof's organization, we pray for you regularly for your your ministry regularly for your your ministry regularly for your your ministry resilience, for you to last the long resilience, for you to last the long resilience, for you to last the long haul in what Christ is calling you to.

haul in what Christ is calling you to. haul in what Christ is calling you to. So, you've got this because we know So, you've got this because we know So, you've got this because we know Jesus sustains you. Because we know Jesus sustains you. Because we know Jesus sustains you. Because we know Jesus is in this with us. So, thanks so Jesus is in this with us. So, thanks so Jesus is in this with us. So, thanks so much for joining. We've got lots more much for joining. We've got lots more much for joining. We've got lots more data on pastors in our recently data on pastors in our recently data on pastors in our recently published journal The Relationships of published journal The Relationships of published journal The Relationships of Today's Pastors. Today's Pastors. Today's Pastors. You can learn more at barna.com or you You can learn more at barna.com or you You can learn more at barna.com or you can go to stateofthechurch.com/carey. And just a little personal note, my And just a little personal note, my friendship with Carey has been one of friendship with Carey has been one of friendship with Carey has been one of the things that has sustained me in the things that has sustained me in the things that has sustained me in ministry. I know so many of you enjoy ministry. I know so many of you enjoy ministry. I know so many of you enjoy listening along to Carey. And so, Carey, listening along to Carey. And so, Carey, listening along to Carey. And so, Carey, we honor you, we thank you, we're we honor you, we thank you, we're we honor you, we thank you, we're grateful for you. Keep going. We are grateful for you. Keep going. We are grateful for you. Keep going. We are cheering you on and praying for you, cheering you on and praying for you, cheering you on and praying for you, too, brother. Thank you so much. So, too, brother. Thank you so much. So, too, brother. Thank you so much. So, with all that, we're on to today's with all that, we're on to today's with all that, we're on to today's episode of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership episode of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership episode of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Thanks so much for joining. Podcast. Thanks so much for joining. Podcast. Thanks so much for joining. Okay, so this is how unexamined motives Okay, so this is how unexamined motives Okay, so this is how unexamined motives work. Unexamined motives don't announce work. Unexamined motives don't announce work. Unexamined motives don't announce themselves. They don't, you know, put up themselves. They don't, you know, put up themselves. They don't, you know, put up their hand and say, "Hey, guess what? We their hand and say, "Hey, guess what? We their hand and say, "Hey, guess what? We dropped a little bit of arsenic in the dropped a little bit of arsenic in the dropped a little bit of arsenic in the water." Okay? water." Okay? water." Okay? They're not doing that. They don't They're not doing that. They don't They're not doing that. They don't usually lead to outright lying or usually lead to outright lying or usually lead to outright lying or dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead to blurred language. They'll turn hope to blurred language. They'll turn hope to blurred language. They'll turn hope into reality, right? Kind of hope this into reality, right? Kind of hope this into reality, right? Kind of hope this would happen, but now we're going to would happen, but now we're going to would happen, but now we're going to pretend it did happen. Especially when pretend it did happen. Especially when pretend it did happen. Especially when there's pressure to keep a story alive.

there's pressure to keep a story alive. there's pressure to keep a story alive. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we're going to go Podcast. Hey, today we're going to go Podcast. Hey, today we're going to go inside the soul of a leader to ask a inside the soul of a leader to ask a inside the soul of a leader to ask a question. All right? And this is like an question. All right? And this is like an question. All right? And this is like an example question, but But it's what I'm example question, but But it's what I'm example question, but But it's what I'm going to focus on today, but this going to focus on today, but this going to focus on today, but this applies across the board. And the applies across the board. And the applies across the board. And the question is question is question is are you selling church growth? There's are you selling church growth? There's are you selling church growth? There's something that happens inside the soul something that happens inside the soul something that happens inside the soul of a leader I want to take a look at. of a leader I want to take a look at. of a leader I want to take a look at. And if you've ever had mixed motives, And if you've ever had mixed motives, And if you've ever had mixed motives, well, that's what we're talking about well, that's what we're talking about well, that's what we're talking about today because I have 100% I have. Hey, today because I have 100% I have. Hey, today because I have 100% I have. Hey, before we get started today, I want to before we get started today, I want to before we get started today, I want to give a shout-out to Peter Carter, Sheila give a shout-out to Peter Carter, Sheila give a shout-out to Peter Carter, Sheila Schipper, and Judson Taylor who've been Schipper, and Judson Taylor who've been Schipper, and Judson Taylor who've been watching and commenting on YouTube. My watching and commenting on YouTube. My watching and commenting on YouTube. My team and I love seeing your comments. team and I love seeing your comments. team and I love seeing your comments. Thank you so much for watching and Thank you so much for watching and Thank you so much for watching and subscribing. We so appreciate you. Hey, subscribing. We so appreciate you. Hey, subscribing. We so appreciate you. Hey, if you want show notes to this, you if you want show notes to this, you if you want show notes to this, you know, we spend a lot of time putting know, we spend a lot of time putting know, we spend a lot of time putting good show notes transcripts together. good show notes transcripts together. good show notes transcripts together. You can find them at You can find them at You can find them at careynieuwhof.com/shownotes careynieuwhof.com/shownotes careynieuwhof.com/shownotes or better yet go to or better yet go to or better yet go to theartofleadershipacademy.com, theartofleadershipacademy.com, theartofleadershipacademy.com, set up your free account, and you will set up your free account, and you will set up your free account, and you will find them there as well as some really find them there as well as some really find them there as well as some really meaningful discussion inside my Art of meaningful discussion inside my Art of meaningful discussion inside my Art of Leadership Academy. Did you know there Leadership Academy. Did you know there Leadership Academy. Did you know there are 17,000 leaders now inside the are 17,000 leaders now inside the are 17,000 leaders now inside the Academy? We would love to welcome you as Academy? We would love to welcome you as Academy? We would love to welcome you as one of them. So today, one of them. So today, one of them. So today, as I said, I want to tell you about as I said, I want to tell you about as I said, I want to tell you about something I believe will take your something I believe will take your something I believe will take your leadership to the next level. Okay, leadership to the next level. Okay, leadership to the next level. Okay, we're going to talk about the heart, but we're going to talk about the heart, but we're going to talk about the heart, but if you really want to grow your skill if you really want to grow your skill if you really want to grow your skill set, this is going to change how you set, this is going to change how you set, this is going to change how you lead, how you think, how you connect, lead, how you think, how you connect, lead, how you think, how you connect, and also your heart. I'm hosting the Art and also your heart. I'm hosting the Art and also your heart. I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live this September of Leadership Live this September of Leadership Live this September 21st-23rd in Nashville, Tennessee, and 21st-23rd in Nashville, Tennessee, and 21st-23rd in Nashville, Tennessee, and trust me, you don't want to miss this trust me, you don't want to miss this trust me, you don't want to miss this one, okay? This isn't one of those

one, okay? This isn't one of those one, okay? This isn't one of those sit-in-your-seat conferences where you sit-in-your-seat conferences where you sit-in-your-seat conferences where you just sit in the back row and take notes just sit in the back row and take notes just sit in the back row and take notes and not pay attention. Uh where you're and not pay attention. Uh where you're and not pay attention. Uh where you're listening for 8 hours straight. No, this listening for 8 hours straight. No, this listening for 8 hours straight. No, this is highly interactive, deeply practical, is highly interactive, deeply practical, is highly interactive, deeply practical, and intentionally designed to help you and intentionally designed to help you and intentionally designed to help you take real steps forward as a leader. So take real steps forward as a leader. So take real steps forward as a leader. So whether maybe you're looking for a fresh whether maybe you're looking for a fresh whether maybe you're looking for a fresh perspective, for strategic clarity, or perspective, for strategic clarity, or perspective, for strategic clarity, or your next big breakthrough, you're going your next big breakthrough, you're going your next big breakthrough, you're going to find it through world-class teaching, to find it through world-class teaching, to find it through world-class teaching, meaningful connection with other meaningful connection with other meaningful connection with other leaders. We sit you around round tables, leaders. We sit you around round tables, leaders. We sit you around round tables, and margin to think, process, plan, and and margin to think, process, plan, and and margin to think, process, plan, and actually build community. Last year, actually build community. Last year, actually build community. Last year, honestly, I was blown away not just by honestly, I was blown away not just by honestly, I was blown away not just by the speakers, but by the caliber of the speakers, but by the caliber of the speakers, but by the caliber of leaders in the room, the conversations, leaders in the room, the conversations, leaders in the room, the conversations, the insights, the energy. It was unlike the insights, the energy. It was unlike the insights, the energy. It was unlike anything I've ever been a part of. And anything I've ever been a part of. And anything I've ever been a part of. And this year in Nashville, you can expect this year in Nashville, you can expect this year in Nashville, you can expect the same. The conference is filling up the same. The conference is filling up the same. The conference is filling up very quickly, more quickly than in very quickly, more quickly than in very quickly, more quickly than in previous years. Early bird pricing is previous years. Early bird pricing is previous years. Early bird pricing is still available, but for a very limited still available, but for a very limited still available, but for a very limited time. So, don't wait. Go to the art of time. So, don't wait. Go to the art of time. So, don't wait. Go to the art of leadership leadership leadership live.com to apply and secure your live.com to apply and secure your live.com to apply and secure your One final note, if you are one of the One final note, if you are one of the One final note, if you are one of the many all access members of the Art of many all access members of the Art of many all access members of the Art of Leadership Academy, guess what? You can Leadership Academy, guess what? You can Leadership Academy, guess what? You can skip the application process. We know skip the application process. We know skip the application process. We know who you are. Register right now at an who you are. Register right now at an who you are. Register right now at an exclusive member rate. Just log in to exclusive member rate. Just log in to exclusive member rate. Just log in to your account for all the details and your account for all the details and your account for all the details and your special registration link. So, your special registration link. So, your special registration link. So, today I want to talk about motives to today I want to talk about motives to today I want to talk about motives to get into the deeper part of your heart get into the deeper part of your heart get into the deeper part of your heart and my heart. Because if we're not and my heart. Because if we're not and my heart. Because if we're not careful, here's what I'm worried about.

careful, here's what I'm worried about. careful, here's what I'm worried about. What drives you can ultimately destroy What drives you can ultimately destroy What drives you can ultimately destroy you. And I want to talk to you about it you. And I want to talk to you about it you. And I want to talk to you about it through the lens of church growth. And through the lens of church growth. And through the lens of church growth. And in particular, this season of revival in particular, this season of revival in particular, this season of revival that we're in, you know, in many cases that we're in, you know, in many cases that we're in, you know, in many cases right now, we've been talking about it right now, we've been talking about it right now, we've been talking about it for it was 3 years ago that the Asbury, for it was 3 years ago that the Asbury, for it was 3 years ago that the Asbury, you know, awakening happened. So, you know, awakening happened. So, you know, awakening happened. So, nothing in this episode is meant to nothing in this episode is meant to nothing in this episode is meant to dismiss or downplay genuine life change. dismiss or downplay genuine life change. dismiss or downplay genuine life change. I'm not skeptical of church growth. I I'm not skeptical of church growth. I I'm not skeptical of church growth. I want your church to grow. I am not want your church to grow. I am not want your church to grow. I am not cynical about reaching new people. I am cynical about reaching new people. I am cynical about reaching new people. I am not cynical about revival, okay? So, not cynical about revival, okay? So, not cynical about revival, okay? So, that's my disclaimer. I believe God that's my disclaimer. I believe God that's my disclaimer. I believe God moves. I believe he still surprises us. moves. I believe he still surprises us. moves. I believe he still surprises us. And I believe we're seeing real And I believe we're seeing real And I believe we're seeing real spiritual hunger satisfied in the spiritual hunger satisfied in the spiritual hunger satisfied in the season. And before I say anything season. And before I say anything season. And before I say anything further, let me just say the only reason further, let me just say the only reason further, let me just say the only reason I can talk about what we're going to I can talk about what we're going to I can talk about what we're going to talk about in this episode is that talk about in this episode is that talk about in this episode is that everything I'm describing lives in my everything I'm describing lives in my everything I'm describing lives in my heart, too. Okay? I've been in senior heart, too. Okay? I've been in senior heart, too. Okay? I've been in senior leadership for 30 years, and I've led a leadership for 30 years, and I've led a leadership for 30 years, and I've led a growing church for 20 of those years. growing church for 20 of those years. growing church for 20 of those years. And so, what I'm sharing with you today And so, what I'm sharing with you today And so, what I'm sharing with you today is something I'm reflecting on on my is something I'm reflecting on on my is something I'm reflecting on on my leadership. Every driven leader is going leadership. Every driven leader is going leadership. Every driven leader is going to struggle with this. And if you aren't to struggle with this. And if you aren't to struggle with this. And if you aren't driven, oh, then maybe you don't driven, oh, then maybe you don't driven, oh, then maybe you don't understand. But the kind of leader I understand. But the kind of leader I understand. But the kind of leader I think who tunes into a podcast like think who tunes into a podcast like think who tunes into a podcast like this, in all likelihood, gets what I'm this, in all likelihood, gets what I'm this, in all likelihood, gets what I'm talking about. So, seeing your church talking about. So, seeing your church talking about. So, seeing your church grow is amazing, and so many leaders are grow is amazing, and so many leaders are grow is amazing, and so many leaders are seeing it right now.

seeing it right now. seeing it right now. But, that growth can do something to But, that growth can do something to But, that growth can do something to your heart that isn't healthy. It's the your heart that isn't healthy. It's the your heart that isn't healthy. It's the right thing with the wrong motives. So, right thing with the wrong motives. So, right thing with the wrong motives. So, what are we seeing right now in a lot of what are we seeing right now in a lot of what are we seeing right now in a lot of churches? Well, people are coming to churches? Well, people are coming to churches? Well, people are coming to faith, baptisms are increasing, college faith, baptisms are increasing, college faith, baptisms are increasing, college campuses are seeing intense spiritual campuses are seeing intense spiritual campuses are seeing intense spiritual hunger. But the leadership question hunger. But the leadership question hunger. But the leadership question I don't think we're asking clearly I don't think we're asking clearly I don't think we're asking clearly enough is, what happens to pastors when enough is, what happens to pastors when enough is, what happens to pastors when growth becomes public, platformed, or growth becomes public, platformed, or growth becomes public, platformed, or even performative? Or, if I can put it even performative? Or, if I can put it even performative? Or, if I can put it more directly, are we telling a story more directly, are we telling a story more directly, are we telling a story about what God is doing, or are we about what God is doing, or are we about what God is doing, or are we marketing momentum? So, marketing marketing momentum? So, marketing marketing momentum? So, marketing momentum isn't fake growth, okay? It's momentum isn't fake growth, okay? It's momentum isn't fake growth, okay? It's real things, but they're real things real things, but they're real things real things, but they're real things described at their most impressive described at their most impressive described at their most impressive angle. And sometimes as a leader, you angle. And sometimes as a leader, you angle. And sometimes as a leader, you might find yourself rounding up, right? might find yourself rounding up, right? might find yourself rounding up, right? I've done that in the past. It's like, I've done that in the past. It's like, I've done that in the past. It's like, yeah, close enough. I'm really careful yeah, close enough. I'm really careful yeah, close enough. I'm really careful about my numbers now, but in the past, I about my numbers now, but in the past, I about my numbers now, but in the past, I might like, you know, not not might like, you know, not not might like, you know, not not exaggerate, but just like, let's round exaggerate, but just like, let's round exaggerate, but just like, let's round up to a slightly higher integer. Or up to a slightly higher integer. Or up to a slightly higher integer. Or maybe it's using hopeful language before maybe it's using hopeful language before maybe it's using hopeful language before it's fully accurate. You're describing it's fully accurate. You're describing it's fully accurate. You're describing something that doesn't totally exist. Or something that doesn't totally exist. Or something that doesn't totally exist. Or maybe it's the temptation to tell the maybe it's the temptation to tell the maybe it's the temptation to tell the story you want to be true before time story you want to be true before time story you want to be true before time has had a chance to test it. Or maybe, has had a chance to test it. Or maybe, has had a chance to test it. Or maybe, you know, it's pulling your phone out you know, it's pulling your phone out you know, it's pulling your phone out and getting the right shot, the right and getting the right shot, the right and getting the right shot, the right angle in the room that you're going to angle in the room that you're going to angle in the room that you're going to post to TikTok or Instagram, so the room post to TikTok or Instagram, so the room post to TikTok or Instagram, so the room actually looks fuller than it is. Okay?

actually looks fuller than it is. Okay? actually looks fuller than it is. Okay? I understand this because I wrestle with I understand this because I wrestle with I understand this because I wrestle with the same stuff. I want to say this the same stuff. I want to say this the same stuff. I want to say this clearly. Uh I am part of the problem, clearly. Uh I am part of the problem, clearly. Uh I am part of the problem, right? In seasons, I have told stories right? In seasons, I have told stories right? In seasons, I have told stories that emphasized the momentum and ignored that emphasized the momentum and ignored that emphasized the momentum and ignored the cracks. Not because I wanted to the cracks. Not because I wanted to the cracks. Not because I wanted to deceive anyone, but because market deceive anyone, but because market deceive anyone, but because market momentum makes you look good and let's momentum makes you look good and let's momentum makes you look good and let's be honest, be honest, be honest, makes you feel good about yourself, makes you feel good about yourself, makes you feel good about yourself, doesn't it? At least for a short time. doesn't it? At least for a short time. doesn't it? At least for a short time. Doesn't anymore, but but but that's not Doesn't anymore, but but but that's not Doesn't anymore, but but but that's not a good thing. And in a platform world, a good thing. And in a platform world, a good thing. And in a platform world, increasingly, increasingly, increasingly, all of this just feels normal. It almost all of this just feels normal. It almost all of this just feels normal. It almost feels like permission to play. Well, of feels like permission to play. Well, of feels like permission to play. Well, of course, this is what you do. Of course, course, this is what you do. Of course, course, this is what you do. Of course, you know, you exaggerated a little bit. you know, you exaggerated a little bit. you know, you exaggerated a little bit. So, why is this so tempting for pastors? So, why is this so tempting for pastors? So, why is this so tempting for pastors? Well, over the last 20 plus years, as Well, over the last 20 plus years, as Well, over the last 20 plus years, as social media has saturated our culture, social media has saturated our culture, social media has saturated our culture, when growth happens, you don't just when growth happens, you don't just when growth happens, you don't just process it with friends. I mean, back in process it with friends. I mean, back in process it with friends. I mean, back in the day, you used to go for coffee. It's the day, you used to go for coffee. It's the day, you used to go for coffee. It's like, yeah, it was a really good Sunday. like, yeah, it was a really good Sunday. like, yeah, it was a really good Sunday. But now, you and I feel an intense But now, you and I feel an intense But now, you and I feel an intense pressure to narrate it. So, here's the pressure to narrate it. So, here's the pressure to narrate it. So, here's the tension. When momentum gets shared, it tension. When momentum gets shared, it tension. When momentum gets shared, it gets shaped. And when it gets shaped, it gets shaped. And when it gets shaped, it gets shaped. And when it gets shaped, it also gets optimized. And when it gets also gets optimized. And when it gets also gets optimized. And when it gets optimized, it often starts serving the optimized, it often starts serving the optimized, it often starts serving the story more than it starts serving the story more than it starts serving the story more than it starts serving the truth. That's what marketing does, truth. That's what marketing does, truth. That's what marketing does, right? And I'm not against marketing.

right? And I'm not against marketing. right? And I'm not against marketing. All right, I'm not. But All right, I'm not. But All right, I'm not. But I I believe good marketing can be great. I I believe good marketing can be great. I I believe good marketing can be great. But But But this is the stuff that gets into your this is the stuff that gets into your this is the stuff that gets into your soul. And that's why I want to talk soul. And that's why I want to talk soul. And that's why I want to talk about it. Now, pastors, I think, are about it. Now, pastors, I think, are about it. Now, pastors, I think, are especially vulnerable to this, not especially vulnerable to this, not especially vulnerable to this, not because our motives are bad, because our motives are bad, because our motives are bad, but because they're mixed, right? And but because they're mixed, right? And but because they're mixed, right? And we're doing really important work. We we're doing really important work. We we're doing really important work. We want people to meet Jesus. We want lives want people to meet Jesus. We want lives want people to meet Jesus. We want lives to change. We want the church to grow. to change. We want the church to grow. to change. We want the church to grow. We want to encourage other leaders who We want to encourage other leaders who We want to encourage other leaders who are discouraged or tired. And those are are discouraged or tired. And those are are discouraged or tired. And those are good desires. But mixed motives are good desires. But mixed motives are good desires. But mixed motives are still motivating us. And if they go still motivating us. And if they go still motivating us. And if they go unexamined, they don't stay neutral. And unexamined, they don't stay neutral. And unexamined, they don't stay neutral. And that's something that I've seen all that's something that I've seen all that's something that I've seen all around me. The problem isn't mixed around me. The problem isn't mixed around me. The problem isn't mixed motives. The problem is unexamined motives. The problem is unexamined motives. The problem is unexamined motives. motives. motives. So, that's why we're doing this, right? So, that's why we're doing this, right? So, that's why we're doing this, right? If you don't examine your motives, if If you don't examine your motives, if If you don't examine your motives, if you don't really get honest with you don't really get honest with you don't really get honest with yourself and with God, yourself and with God, yourself and with God, um you can get in trouble fast. So, this um you can get in trouble fast. So, this um you can get in trouble fast. So, this is how unexamined motives work. A few is how unexamined motives work. A few is how unexamined motives work. A few thoughts on that. Okay. So, this is how thoughts on that. Okay. So, this is how thoughts on that. Okay. So, this is how unexamined motives work. Unexamined unexamined motives work. Unexamined unexamined motives work. Unexamined motives don't announce themselves. They motives don't announce themselves. They motives don't announce themselves. They don't, you know, put up their hand and don't, you know, put up their hand and don't, you know, put up their hand and say, "Hey, guess what? We dropped a say, "Hey, guess what? We dropped a say, "Hey, guess what? We dropped a little bit of arsenic in the water, little bit of arsenic in the water, little bit of arsenic in the water, okay?"

okay?" okay?" They're not doing that. They don't They're not doing that. They don't They're not doing that. They don't usually lead to outright lying or usually lead to outright lying or usually lead to outright lying or dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed dishonesty. What they lead to, mixed motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead motives, is exaggeration. They'll lead to blurred language. They'll turn hope to blurred language. They'll turn hope to blurred language. They'll turn hope into reality, right? Kind of hope this into reality, right? Kind of hope this into reality, right? Kind of hope this would happen, but now we're going to would happen, but now we're going to would happen, but now we're going to pretend it did happen. Especially when pretend it did happen. Especially when pretend it did happen. Especially when there's pressure to keep a story alive there's pressure to keep a story alive there's pressure to keep a story alive or you want to be part of a bigger story or you want to be part of a bigger story or you want to be part of a bigger story that's being written elsewhere. And that's being written elsewhere. And that's being written elsewhere. And lately, when it comes to marketed lately, when it comes to marketed lately, when it comes to marketed momentum, this is where revival language momentum, this is where revival language momentum, this is where revival language can enter the conversation, right? can enter the conversation, right? can enter the conversation, right? Uh you can say, "Look at what's Uh you can say, "Look at what's Uh you can say, "Look at what's happening at our church. We're out of happening at our church. We're out of happening at our church. We're out of room another night." Or whatever you're room another night." Or whatever you're room another night." Or whatever you're sharing. So, indeed, God might actually sharing. So, indeed, God might actually sharing. So, indeed, God might actually be moving, but revival language carries be moving, but revival language carries be moving, but revival language carries weight. And when momentum gets marketed, weight. And when momentum gets marketed, weight. And when momentum gets marketed, revival can become this powerful label, revival can become this powerful label, revival can become this powerful label, even if it's not 100% accurate. Um even if it's not 100% accurate. Um even if it's not 100% accurate. Um revival is not a marketing term. It's revival is not a marketing term. It's revival is not a marketing term. It's not. And of course, you know, not. And of course, you know, not. And of course, you know, uh what many revival experts say, and we uh what many revival experts say, and we uh what many revival experts say, and we did a whole uh series on this last year, did a whole uh series on this last year, did a whole uh series on this last year, is that we're not in revival yet, but I is that we're not in revival yet, but I is that we're not in revival yet, but I see it all over the internet. We got see it all over the internet. We got see it all over the internet. We got revival. We got revival, right? People revival. We got revival, right? People revival. We got revival, right? People who study revival say the same thing who study revival say the same thing who study revival say the same thing over and over again.

over and over again. over and over again. If and when revival happens, it's If and when revival happens, it's If and when revival happens, it's unmistakable. You don't have to convince unmistakable. You don't have to convince unmistakable. You don't have to convince people. You don't have to market people. people. You don't have to market people. people. You don't have to market people. You don't have to defend it. You don't You don't have to defend it. You don't You don't have to defend it. You don't have to keep explaining it. It's kind of have to keep explaining it. It's kind of have to keep explaining it. It's kind of like the second coming, you're like, "Uh like the second coming, you're like, "Uh like the second coming, you're like, "Uh is that the second coming?" No, it's is that the second coming?" No, it's is that the second coming?" No, it's not. not. not. If it's the second coming, everybody's If it's the second coming, everybody's If it's the second coming, everybody's going to know, right? Same with revival. going to know, right? Same with revival. going to know, right? Same with revival. And in many cases, I think what we're And in many cases, I think what we're And in many cases, I think what we're actually seeing around us right now is actually seeing around us right now is actually seeing around us right now is momentum, good momentum, God momentum, momentum, good momentum, God momentum, momentum, good momentum, God momentum, encouraging momentum, momentum we should encouraging momentum, momentum we should encouraging momentum, momentum we should be grateful for, but momentum that be grateful for, but momentum that be grateful for, but momentum that hasn't yet earned the weight of the hasn't yet earned the weight of the hasn't yet earned the weight of the language that perhaps we're assigning to language that perhaps we're assigning to language that perhaps we're assigning to it. So, if you struggle with this it. So, if you struggle with this it. So, if you struggle with this tension, what do you do about it? So, I tension, what do you do about it? So, I tension, what do you do about it? So, I want to offer you a simple framework want to offer you a simple framework want to offer you a simple framework that's helped me examine myself. I'm not that's helped me examine myself. I'm not that's helped me examine myself. I'm not judging anybody else, but this is judging anybody else, but this is judging anybody else, but this is something I am actively struggling with something I am actively struggling with something I am actively struggling with in my own life, and so that I found this in my own life, and so that I found this in my own life, and so that I found this helpful. So, ask yourself start this helpful. So, ask yourself start this helpful. So, ask yourself start this way. Ask yourself this question. way. Ask yourself this question. way. Ask yourself this question. Why do I need to tell the story Why do I need to tell the story Why do I need to tell the story in the way I'm telling it? Why do I need in the way I'm telling it? Why do I need in the way I'm telling it? Why do I need to tell the story in the way I'm telling to tell the story in the way I'm telling to tell the story in the way I'm telling it? It's a really interesting question it? It's a really interesting question it? It's a really interesting question before you post, right? Before you write before you post, right? Before you write before you post, right? Before you write that email, before you post it to that email, before you post it to that email, before you post it to YouTube or TikTok or Instagram.

YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. And often you'll discover four motives And often you'll discover four motives And often you'll discover four motives underneath. And these unexamined motives underneath. And these unexamined motives underneath. And these unexamined motives are the things that drive you, and when are the things that drive you, and when are the things that drive you, and when they drive you, these are the ones that they drive you, these are the ones that they drive you, these are the ones that could destroy you. So, could destroy you. So, could destroy you. So, why am I telling the story in the way I why am I telling the story in the way I why am I telling the story in the way I am telling it? Sometimes the driver is am telling it? Sometimes the driver is am telling it? Sometimes the driver is pride, right? You're like, "Hey, look at pride, right? You're like, "Hey, look at pride, right? You're like, "Hey, look at me. I'm doing awesome, right?" Growth me. I'm doing awesome, right?" Growth me. I'm doing awesome, right?" Growth becomes proof of God's faithfulness, becomes proof of God's faithfulness, becomes proof of God's faithfulness, like you need some kind of validation. like you need some kind of validation. like you need some kind of validation. And that leads us to number two, right? And that leads us to number two, right? And that leads us to number two, right? Sometimes the driver is insecurity. Sometimes the driver is insecurity. Sometimes the driver is insecurity. It's insecurity, It's insecurity, It's insecurity, right? Pride and insecurity are pretty right? Pride and insecurity are pretty right? Pride and insecurity are pretty linked, but maybe you feel behind or you linked, but maybe you feel behind or you linked, but maybe you feel behind or you fear becoming irrelevant, or you fear becoming irrelevant, or you fear becoming irrelevant, or you exaggerate momentum just enough to stay exaggerate momentum just enough to stay exaggerate momentum just enough to stay in the conversation with your friends, in the conversation with your friends, in the conversation with your friends, right? Insecurity doesn't lie outright, right? Insecurity doesn't lie outright, right? Insecurity doesn't lie outright, it just rounds up. The question here is it just rounds up. The question here is it just rounds up. The question here is whether you're sharing out of gratitude whether you're sharing out of gratitude whether you're sharing out of gratitude or anxiety, whether a slowdown would or anxiety, whether a slowdown would or anxiety, whether a slowdown would make you feel exposed, like, "Oh, no, I make you feel exposed, like, "Oh, no, I make you feel exposed, like, "Oh, no, I don't have what it takes, right?" So, don't have what it takes, right?" So, don't have what it takes, right?" So, sometimes it's pride, sometimes it's pride, sometimes it's pride, sometimes it's insecurity.

sometimes it's insecurity. sometimes it's insecurity. Sometimes the driver is aspirational Sometimes the driver is aspirational Sometimes the driver is aspirational pressure. You just want more than you pressure. You just want more than you pressure. You just want more than you are. You want to be more than you are. are. You want to be more than you are. are. You want to be more than you are. You want your church to be more than it You want your church to be more than it You want your church to be more than it is. So, hope gets reported as reality. A is. So, hope gets reported as reality. A is. So, hope gets reported as reality. A good season becomes a movement, or good season becomes a movement, or good season becomes a movement, or momentum becomes revival, and it's not momentum becomes revival, and it's not momentum becomes revival, and it's not malicious, malicious, malicious, but overstatement soon becomes normal in but overstatement soon becomes normal in but overstatement soon becomes normal in this framework, right? Everything is this framework, right? Everything is this framework, right? Everything is aspirational. So, a helpful question is aspirational. So, a helpful question is aspirational. So, a helpful question is whether people actually in your church whether people actually in your church whether people actually in your church would recognize your church the way would recognize your church the way would recognize your church the way you're describing it publicly. All you're describing it publicly. All you're describing it publicly. All right? Does what you're saying publicly right? Does what you're saying publicly right? Does what you're saying publicly align with what's happening privately? align with what's happening privately? align with what's happening privately? So, the final driver, and and this one So, the final driver, and and this one So, the final driver, and and this one rarely happens by itself, but once in a rarely happens by itself, but once in a rarely happens by itself, but once in a while, hey, your motives are pretty while, hey, your motives are pretty while, hey, your motives are pretty good. How do you know you have good good. How do you know you have good good. How do you know you have good motives? Well, here's a good motive motives? Well, here's a good motive motives? Well, here's a good motive check. Ask yourself, would I still share check. Ask yourself, would I still share check. Ask yourself, would I still share this if no other pastors saw this? What this if no other pastors saw this? What this if no other pastors saw this? What if it got zero exposure? If the if it got zero exposure? If the if it got zero exposure? If the algorithm just killed it, would you algorithm just killed it, would you algorithm just killed it, would you still post it? still post it? still post it? Are you pointing to what God is doing? Are you pointing to what God is doing? Are you pointing to what God is doing? Are you pointing to yourself? Morgan Are you pointing to yourself? Morgan Are you pointing to yourself? Morgan Housel and Rachel Cruze ask a great Housel and Rachel Cruze ask a great Housel and Rachel Cruze ask a great question about money, which is let's say question about money, which is let's say question about money, which is let's say you're going to buy a new car, okay, or you're going to buy a new car, okay, or you're going to buy a new car, okay, or a watch, or a house, or whatever, or the a watch, or a house, or whatever, or the a watch, or a house, or whatever, or the workout outfit, the gear you just workout outfit, the gear you just workout outfit, the gear you just bought.

bought. bought. If nobody else saw it, If nobody else saw it, If nobody else saw it, would you still buy it? It's a great would you still buy it? It's a great would you still buy it? It's a great question. I mean, there are things that question. I mean, there are things that question. I mean, there are things that I bought that I'm like, I'm just really I bought that I'm like, I'm just really I bought that I'm like, I'm just really happy I bought it. But sometimes we buy happy I bought it. But sometimes we buy happy I bought it. But sometimes we buy things because we want to impress other things because we want to impress other things because we want to impress other people. So, if you're trying to impress people. So, if you're trying to impress people. So, if you're trying to impress other people, other people, other people, uh maybe hold off a little bit. Okay, so uh maybe hold off a little bit. Okay, so uh maybe hold off a little bit. Okay, so I want to suggest that there are four I want to suggest that there are four I want to suggest that there are four questions before you post. So, before I questions before you post. So, before I questions before you post. So, before I post anything now, and I'm posting a post anything now, and I'm posting a post anything now, and I'm posting a little bit less than I used to because I little bit less than I used to because I little bit less than I used to because I keep applying this motive check to keep applying this motive check to keep applying this motive check to myself, right? I try to slow myself down myself, right? I try to slow myself down myself, right? I try to slow myself down with a few filters. with a few filters. with a few filters. So, filter number one, question one. Am So, filter number one, question one. Am So, filter number one, question one. Am I being accurate? Or am I overstating I being accurate? Or am I overstating I being accurate? Or am I overstating what's happening? Like, would this what's happening? Like, would this what's happening? Like, would this actually hold up under honest scrutiny? actually hold up under honest scrutiny? actually hold up under honest scrutiny? If you came into the room, would you go, If you came into the room, would you go, If you came into the room, would you go, yeah, that's exactly what I saw online? yeah, that's exactly what I saw online? yeah, that's exactly what I saw online? Or it's even better than what I saw Or it's even better than what I saw Or it's even better than what I saw online? So, are you being accurate? Am I online? So, are you being accurate? Am I online? So, are you being accurate? Am I being accurate? Second, being accurate? Second, being accurate? Second, um um um am I looking at a moment? Or am I am I looking at a moment? Or am I am I looking at a moment? Or am I looking at sustained movement, right? looking at sustained movement, right? looking at sustained movement, right? Because if it's happening again and Because if it's happening again and Because if it's happening again and again and again and again, okay, that's again and again and again, okay, that's again and again and again, okay, that's a little bit different than if you just a little bit different than if you just a little bit different than if you just had one really good Sunday or one really had one really good Sunday or one really had one really good Sunday or one really good service or one really good moment, good service or one really good moment, good service or one really good moment, and you posted that and said, "This is and you posted that and said, "This is and you posted that and said, "This is who we are." Right? So, is it part of who we are." Right? So, is it part of who we are." Right? So, is it part of something sustained, right? And then ask something sustained, right? And then ask something sustained, right? And then ask yourself again, who gets the credit yourself again, who gets the credit yourself again, who gets the credit here? God, the people, the leaders, or I here? God, the people, the leaders, or I here? God, the people, the leaders, or I getting all the credit because of my getting all the credit because of my getting all the credit because of my posting? And then finally, I would ask posting? And then finally, I would ask posting? And then finally, I would ask this question, if I couldn't share this this question, if I couldn't share this this question, if I couldn't share this publicly, publicly, publicly, would I still celebrate it privately?

would I still celebrate it privately? would I still celebrate it privately? It's a great question, right? And more It's a great question, right? And more It's a great question, right? And more and more, uh I have moments I don't and more, uh I have moments I don't and more, uh I have moments I don't share publicly. Dinners with close share publicly. Dinners with close share publicly. Dinners with close friends, family moments. Not because friends, family moments. Not because friends, family moments. Not because they're inappropriate, but because I they're inappropriate, but because I they're inappropriate, but because I want to keep those things special. And I want to keep those things special. And I want to keep those things special. And I think sometimes we lose something when think sometimes we lose something when think sometimes we lose something when we share every intimate detail of our we share every intimate detail of our we share every intimate detail of our lives and every intimate detail of our lives and every intimate detail of our lives and every intimate detail of our leadership with everybody. So, back to leadership with everybody. So, back to leadership with everybody. So, back to why we post and our motives. Instead of why we post and our motives. Instead of why we post and our motives. Instead of posting everything, maybe rounding up, posting everything, maybe rounding up, posting everything, maybe rounding up, slightly exaggerating, or being too slightly exaggerating, or being too slightly exaggerating, or being too optimistic, I'm learning to ask a better optimistic, I'm learning to ask a better optimistic, I'm learning to ask a better question. What is the most honest question. What is the most honest question. What is the most honest language for what God is doing right language for what God is doing right language for what God is doing right now? And I know that language sounds now? And I know that language sounds now? And I know that language sounds pretty unimpressive, but honest language pretty unimpressive, but honest language pretty unimpressive, but honest language builds trust, right? If you're marketing builds trust, right? If you're marketing builds trust, right? If you're marketing everything, if you're marketing your everything, if you're marketing your everything, if you're marketing your momentum and maybe exaggerating a bit, momentum and maybe exaggerating a bit, momentum and maybe exaggerating a bit, guess what you're doing? You're eroding guess what you're doing? You're eroding guess what you're doing? You're eroding trust. Even if good things are trust. Even if good things are trust. Even if good things are happening, if you're exaggerating, happening, if you're exaggerating, happening, if you're exaggerating, you're eroding trust. Trust with your you're eroding trust. Trust with your you're eroding trust. Trust with your people, trust with others, trust, you people, trust with others, trust, you people, trust with others, trust, you know, even in your relationship with know, even in your relationship with know, even in your relationship with God. It matters more than we think God. It matters more than we think God. It matters more than we think because our language shapes because our language shapes because our language shapes expectations, expectation shapes expectations, expectation shapes expectations, expectation shapes behavior, and behavior shapes your behavior, and behavior shapes your behavior, and behavior shapes your integrity, right? You are what you integrity, right? You are what you integrity, right? You are what you repeatedly do. So, calling momentum repeatedly do. So, calling momentum repeatedly do. So, calling momentum revival doesn't create revival, but what revival doesn't create revival, but what revival doesn't create revival, but what it can do is create pressure to perform, it can do is create pressure to perform, it can do is create pressure to perform, distortion, and eventually, distortion, and eventually, distortion, and eventually, could even lead to cynicism. So, yeah, could even lead to cynicism. So, yeah, could even lead to cynicism. So, yeah, you don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit you don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit you don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit when you claim credit for something that when you claim credit for something that when you claim credit for something that hasn't fully happened yet or attribute hasn't fully happened yet or attribute hasn't fully happened yet or attribute to God something that really God isn't

to God something that really God isn't to God something that really God isn't doing. All right? So, where does this doing. All right? So, where does this doing. All right? So, where does this leave you and me? leave you and me? leave you and me? Well, growth is a gift. I'm all for it. Well, growth is a gift. I'm all for it. Well, growth is a gift. I'm all for it. I want to see it. I want to see it in I want to see it. I want to see it in I want to see it. I want to see it in your churches. I want to see it in our your churches. I want to see it in our your churches. I want to see it in our lives. Momentum is a gift. Seasons like lives. Momentum is a gift. Seasons like lives. Momentum is a gift. Seasons like we're in right now in the church is a we're in right now in the church is a we're in right now in the church is a gift and I am all about growing gift and I am all about growing gift and I am all about growing churches, changed lives, and seeing God churches, changed lives, and seeing God churches, changed lives, and seeing God move powerfully. But when momentum move powerfully. But when momentum move powerfully. But when momentum starts shaping your identity, it can starts shaping your identity, it can starts shaping your identity, it can start reshaping your integrity. I talked start reshaping your integrity. I talked start reshaping your integrity. I talked with John Crist on this podcast. It's with John Crist on this podcast. It's with John Crist on this podcast. It's episode 604 and he talked about people episode 604 and he talked about people episode 604 and he talked about people laughing at his jokes becoming like laughing at his jokes becoming like laughing at his jokes becoming like injecting a drug into his veins. He injecting a drug into his veins. He injecting a drug into his veins. He actually used this like body language. actually used this like body language. actually used this like body language. And I think leaders get that, right? The And I think leaders get that, right? The And I think leaders get that, right? The applause, the likes, the the accolades. applause, the likes, the the accolades. applause, the likes, the the accolades. What are they like? They're kind of like What are they like? They're kind of like What are they like? They're kind of like right right into your veins. right right into your veins. right right into your veins. Now, John was canceled. He went into Now, John was canceled. He went into Now, John was canceled. He went into some deep rehab. I've tracked with him some deep rehab. I've tracked with him some deep rehab. I've tracked with him for a few years now. I'm really for a few years now. I'm really for a few years now. I'm really impressed at the transformation impressed at the transformation impressed at the transformation he he he he's gone through. he's gone through. he's gone through. But when you sit down with a guy like But when you sit down with a guy like But when you sit down with a guy like John, you know what? After he's done the John, you know what? After he's done the John, you know what? After he's done the hard work, he's gone through rehab. You hard work, he's gone through rehab. You hard work, he's gone through rehab. You know what you realize? He appreciates know what you realize? He appreciates know what you realize? He appreciates the laughter, but he doesn't need it.

the laughter, but he doesn't need it. the laughter, but he doesn't need it. Doesn't need it anymore. He loves it. Doesn't need it anymore. He loves it. Doesn't need it anymore. He loves it. It's funny when a joke lands, but he It's funny when a joke lands, but he It's funny when a joke lands, but he doesn't need it. And I think when you doesn't need it. And I think when you doesn't need it. And I think when you get to the bottom of your motives and get to the bottom of your motives and get to the bottom of your motives and discover what really drives you, you can discover what really drives you, you can discover what really drives you, you can avoid destroying yourself or other avoid destroying yourself or other avoid destroying yourself or other people or your church and you can stop people or your church and you can stop people or your church and you can stop selling and start telling. But it's deep selling and start telling. But it's deep selling and start telling. But it's deep work cuz Tim Keller often said, momentum work cuz Tim Keller often said, momentum work cuz Tim Keller often said, momentum can become idolatry, right? Anything can can become idolatry, right? Anything can can become idolatry, right? Anything can become idolatry. And when it becomes become idolatry. And when it becomes become idolatry. And when it becomes idolatry, guess what? Success goes to idolatry, guess what? Success goes to idolatry, guess what? Success goes to your head. Failure goes to your heart. your head. Failure goes to your heart. your head. Failure goes to your heart. And if you're manufacturing or selling And if you're manufacturing or selling And if you're manufacturing or selling momentum, momentum, momentum, that's probably what's going to happen. that's probably what's going to happen. that's probably what's going to happen. So, bottom line, God isn't impressed by So, bottom line, God isn't impressed by So, bottom line, God isn't impressed by how well we narrate what he's doing. how well we narrate what he's doing. how well we narrate what he's doing. He's far more concerned with who we're He's far more concerned with who we're He's far more concerned with who we're becoming while he's doing his work. And becoming while he's doing his work. And becoming while he's doing his work. And maybe the win for listening to this maybe the win for listening to this maybe the win for listening to this podcast is look deep inside as we podcast is look deep inside as we podcast is look deep inside as we navigate seasons of ministry, especially navigate seasons of ministry, especially navigate seasons of ministry, especially seasons of success. You know, there's a seasons of success. You know, there's a seasons of success. You know, there's a famous quote that says, "Anybody can famous quote that says, "Anybody can famous quote that says, "Anybody can handle failure. It's really success handle failure. It's really success handle failure. It's really success that's the test of your character." So, that's the test of your character." So, that's the test of your character." So, let our talk be accurate, humble, let our talk be accurate, humble, let our talk be accurate, humble, and courageous at times, but have the and courageous at times, but have the and courageous at times, but have the courage to tell the truth even when the courage to tell the truth even when the courage to tell the truth even when the truth feels less impressive than the truth feels less impressive than the truth feels less impressive than the headline. Revival doesn't need hype.

headline. Revival doesn't need hype. headline. Revival doesn't need hype. Faithfulness doesn't need branding. Faithfulness doesn't need branding. Faithfulness doesn't need branding. And ask yourself, am I being accurate or And ask yourself, am I being accurate or And ask yourself, am I being accurate or am I overstating what's happening? Would am I overstating what's happening? Would am I overstating what's happening? Would this hold up this hold up this hold up under honest scrutiny? Am I looking at a under honest scrutiny? Am I looking at a under honest scrutiny? Am I looking at a moment or a sustained movement? Because moment or a sustained movement? Because moment or a sustained movement? Because revival doesn't need constant defending. revival doesn't need constant defending. revival doesn't need constant defending. Who gets the credit here, you know? God, Who gets the credit here, you know? God, Who gets the credit here, you know? God, the people, the people, the people, leaders, or is it all pointing to me? leaders, or is it all pointing to me? leaders, or is it all pointing to me? And then finally, ask yourself one more And then finally, ask yourself one more And then finally, ask yourself one more time, if I couldn't share this publicly, time, if I couldn't share this publicly, time, if I couldn't share this publicly, would I still be celebrating it would I still be celebrating it would I still be celebrating it privately? So, at the end of the day, I privately? So, at the end of the day, I privately? So, at the end of the day, I don't want to be known as a leader who don't want to be known as a leader who don't want to be known as a leader who sold momentum. sold momentum. sold momentum. I want to be known as somebody who I want to be known as somebody who I want to be known as somebody who stewarded it. I want to be a leader who stewarded it. I want to be a leader who stewarded it. I want to be a leader who kept my heart intact in seasons that go kept my heart intact in seasons that go kept my heart intact in seasons that go up and seasons that go down. Momentum up and seasons that go down. Momentum up and seasons that go down. Momentum doesn't need marketing. Don't sell it. doesn't need marketing. Don't sell it. doesn't need marketing. Don't sell it. Steward it. Okay, I hope that was Steward it. Okay, I hope that was Steward it. Okay, I hope that was helpful. I'm preaching to myself. If it helpful. I'm preaching to myself. If it helpful. I'm preaching to myself. If it was helpful to you, I'd love to hear was helpful to you, I'd love to hear was helpful to you, I'd love to hear from you in the comments. Next episode, from you in the comments. Next episode, from you in the comments. Next episode, we kind of have a case study in what we kind of have a case study in what we kind of have a case study in what happens when you get happens when you get happens when you get huge momentum huge momentum huge momentum and it all falls apart. And my guest is and it all falls apart. And my guest is and it all falls apart. And my guest is Carl Lentz. We spent a morning together Carl Lentz. We spent a morning together Carl Lentz. We spent a morning together and my goodness, he talks about and my goodness, he talks about and my goodness, he talks about preaching while you're having sex preaching while you're having sex preaching while you're having sex outside of marriage, how the pressure of outside of marriage, how the pressure of outside of marriage, how the pressure of church growth got to him, and warning church growth got to him, and warning church growth got to him, and warning signs for other leaders. Also coming up signs for other leaders. Also coming up signs for other leaders. Also coming up on the podcast, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate on the podcast, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate on the podcast, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Arthur Brooks, Near AL, and a whole lot Arthur Brooks, Near AL, and a whole lot Arthur Brooks, Near AL, and a whole lot more. Man, we have a amazing guest more. Man, we have a amazing guest more. Man, we have a amazing guest lineup in 2026 for you. Thank you so lineup in 2026 for you. Thank you so lineup in 2026 for you. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation

much for listening. If this conversation much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment was helpful, leave a review or comment was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening. Don't forget wherever you're listening. Don't forget wherever you're listening. Don't forget to share it with a friend, and I hope to share it with a friend, and I hope to share it with a friend, and I hope our time together today helped you our time together today helped you our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.