Is 30yrs Old Too Young to Lead? with John Eldredge

So it breeds like an insecurity or what So it breeds like an insecurity or what does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it it's worse than that. It is a famished it's worse than that. It is a famished it's worse than that. It is a famished craving in the soul that will compel craving in the soul that will compel craving in the soul that will compel that person through multiple that person through multiple that person through multiple relationships, multiple addictions, you relationships, multiple addictions, you relationships, multiple addictions, you know. Um also also fear like it will know. Um also also fear like it will know. Um also also fear like it will also paralyze people from moving also paralyze people from moving also paralyze people from moving confidently into their confidently into their confidently into their calling because they didn't have the calling because they didn't have the calling because they didn't have the security of love. So they're desperately security of love. So they're desperately security of love. So they're desperately afraid of abandonment, betrayal, afraid of abandonment, betrayal, afraid of abandonment, betrayal, rejection. You know, what will people rejection. You know, what will people rejection. You know, what will people think of think of think of me? Right? Oh, yeah. If you're afraid of me? Right? Oh, yeah. If you're afraid of me? Right? Oh, yeah. If you're afraid of what people think of you, that is a that what people think of you, that is a that what people think of you, that is a that is a paralyzing thing as you try and is a paralyzing thing as you try and is a paralyzing thing as you try and move into your career, right? Well, that move into your career, right? Well, that move into your career, right? Well, that gets into people pleasing, which I think gets into people pleasing, which I think gets into people pleasing, which I think most church leaders would say guilty most church leaders would say guilty most church leaders would say guilty because you want to be seen. Oh, it's because you want to be seen. Oh, it's because you want to be seen. Oh, it's such a trap. Welcome to the Carrie New such a trap. Welcome to the Carrie New such a trap. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us today in the so glad you joined us today in the so glad you joined us today in the house, John Eldridge. And we're going to house, John Eldridge. And we're going to house, John Eldridge. And we're going to talk about different decades. Some of talk about different decades. Some of talk about different decades. Some of you, you're in your 20s, some of you in you, you're in your 20s, some of you in you, you're in your 20s, some of you in your 30s. Some of you a little bit older your 30s. Some of you a little bit older your 30s. Some of you a little bit older like me. Well, what stage of life are like me. Well, what stage of life are like me. Well, what stage of life are you in? What does that look like? Uh, you in? What does that look like? Uh, you in? What does that look like? Uh, we're going to talk about all of that.

we're going to talk about all of that. we're going to talk about all of that. And if you wondered like, what does this And if you wondered like, what does this And if you wondered like, what does this decade bring for you? Nobody is better decade bring for you? Nobody is better decade bring for you? Nobody is better at that than John Eldridge. Think you're at that than John Eldridge. Think you're at that than John Eldridge. Think you're really going to enjoy this. Hey, if you really going to enjoy this. Hey, if you really going to enjoy this. Hey, if you appreciate this episode, make sure you appreciate this episode, make sure you appreciate this episode, make sure you subscribe, you like it, maybe drop a subscribe, you like it, maybe drop a subscribe, you like it, maybe drop a comment. Let me know where you're comment. Let me know where you're comment. Let me know where you're listening from. We love to engage with listening from. We love to engage with listening from. We love to engage with you. Now, going to get to the you. Now, going to get to the you. Now, going to get to the conversation with John Eldridge in just conversation with John Eldridge in just conversation with John Eldridge in just a moment. But first, a word from our a moment. But first, a word from our a moment. But first, a word from our very carefully selected partners. very carefully selected partners. very carefully selected partners. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion. So, you may be familiar with Compassion. So, you may be familiar with Compassion. So, you may be familiar with Compassion's mandate to release children Compassion's mandate to release children Compassion's mandate to release children from poverty in Jesus name. But did you from poverty in Jesus name. But did you from poverty in Jesus name. But did you know that they actually help your church know that they actually help your church know that they actually help your church fulfill a believer's commission to fulfill a believer's commission to fulfill a believer's commission to fulfill the great commission? Right? fulfill the great commission? Right? fulfill the great commission? Right? We're all commissioned with that. 89% of We're all commissioned with that. 89% of We're all commissioned with that. 89% of current compassion sponsors agree that current compassion sponsors agree that current compassion sponsors agree that sponsoring is a clear and tangible way sponsoring is a clear and tangible way sponsoring is a clear and tangible way of living out your faith as a Christ of living out your faith as a Christ of living out your faith as a Christ follower. As a pastor, I've trusted follower. As a pastor, I've trusted follower. As a pastor, I've trusted compassion for years. when I pastored compassion for years. when I pastored compassion for years. when I pastored Kexus church, uh we sponsored hundreds Kexus church, uh we sponsored hundreds Kexus church, uh we sponsored hundreds of kids and uh my wife and I, we sponsor of kids and uh my wife and I, we sponsor of kids and uh my wife and I, we sponsor kids on a regular basis uh in our own kids on a regular basis uh in our own kids on a regular basis uh in our own life as well. So if you want to bring life as well. So if you want to bring life as well. So if you want to bring this kind of mission focus to your this kind of mission focus to your this kind of mission focus to your church, then reach out to compassion and church, then reach out to compassion and church, then reach out to compassion and let them know. Simply go to let them know. Simply go to let them know. Simply go to compassion.com/carry, that's compassion.com/carry, that's compassion.com/carry, that's compassion.com/carry, and watch God use compassion.com/carry, and watch God use compassion.com/carry, and watch God use your church and your congregation to your church and your congregation to your church and your congregation to impact the world. Well, welcome to the impact the world. Well, welcome to the impact the world. Well, welcome to the Carnu-hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, Carnu-hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, Carnu-hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we dive into today's episode, we before we dive into today's episode, we before we dive into today's episode, we are going to do one of the monthly are going to do one of the monthly are going to do one of the monthly updates that I'm doing this year with

updates that I'm doing this year with updates that I'm doing this year with David Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara David Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara David Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara Group, State of the Church. David, we're Group, State of the Church. David, we're Group, State of the Church. David, we're getting fresh data every single month. getting fresh data every single month. getting fresh data every single month. So, just a quick update on what you're So, just a quick update on what you're So, just a quick update on what you're working on right now. So, tell us, you working on right now. So, tell us, you working on right now. So, tell us, you are asking the question that the Barner are asking the question that the Barner are asking the question that the Barner Group has asked for years, but you have Group has asked for years, but you have Group has asked for years, but you have a new twist on it this time around. We a new twist on it this time around. We a new twist on it this time around. We do. Yeah. So we have some really really do. Yeah. So we have some really really do. Yeah. So we have some really really good news to uh prepare for you today to good news to uh prepare for you today to good news to uh prepare for you today to talk to you about and it is the talk to you about and it is the talk to you about and it is the percentage of Americans who say they percentage of Americans who say they percentage of Americans who say they have made a personal commitment to Jesus have made a personal commitment to Jesus have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their Christ that is still important in their Christ that is still important in their life today and uh that's something we've life today and uh that's something we've life today and uh that's something we've been tracking for many decades. Um uh been tracking for many decades. Um uh been tracking for many decades. Um uh what we're find is that it it reached a what we're find is that it it reached a what we're find is that it it reached a high point of 77% uh back in uh 2009 high point of 77% uh back in uh 2009 high point of 77% uh back in uh 2009 uh around the time of the mortgage uh around the time of the mortgage uh around the time of the mortgage crisis uh as it as it happens to be. crisis uh as it as it happens to be. crisis uh as it as it happens to be. Yeah. when things were really bad Yeah. when things were really bad Yeah. when things were really bad economically, everyone believed in economically, everyone believed in economically, everyone believed in Jesus. Sorry, is that a cynical take? Jesus. Sorry, is that a cynical take? Jesus. Sorry, is that a cynical take? Maybe, maybe, maybe not. No, but bad Maybe, maybe, maybe not. No, but bad Maybe, maybe, maybe not. No, but bad times in the economy are good times for times in the economy are good times for times in the economy are good times for churches, right? As a rule. Yeah. I churches, right? As a rule. Yeah. I churches, right? As a rule. Yeah. I think when when things are tough, when think when when things are tough, when think when when things are tough, when whether it's 9/11 or the pandemic or whether it's 9/11 or the pandemic or whether it's 9/11 or the pandemic or other things, there's a a sense in which other things, there's a a sense in which other things, there's a a sense in which people turn to places of deeper meaning.

people turn to places of deeper meaning. people turn to places of deeper meaning. Um and and what we're finding now, so Um and and what we're finding now, so Um and and what we're finding now, so this is some of the best news that we this is some of the best news that we this is some of the best news that we have uh been able to release in years. have uh been able to release in years. have uh been able to release in years. But there is a real signs of renewal uh But there is a real signs of renewal uh But there is a real signs of renewal uh across our our society. And currently it across our our society. And currently it across our our society. And currently it is at 66% of Americans who say they've is at 66% of Americans who say they've is at 66% of Americans who say they've made a personal commitment to Christ made a personal commitment to Christ made a personal commitment to Christ that's still important in their life. that's still important in their life. that's still important in their life. Now you'll note that is lower than it Now you'll note that is lower than it Now you'll note that is lower than it was when I just mentioned it. 77% back was when I just mentioned it. 77% back was when I just mentioned it. 77% back in 2009 and it was in the 70s for a lot in 2009 and it was in the 70s for a lot in 2009 and it was in the 70s for a lot of uh sort of from 2004 and 2005 uh of uh sort of from 2004 and 2005 uh of uh sort of from 2004 and 2005 uh through let's it looks about 2011 but um through let's it looks about 2011 but um through let's it looks about 2011 but um during the pandemic in 2021 during the pandemic in 2021 during the pandemic in 2021 um and and sort of like even 2019 it was um and and sort of like even 2019 it was um and and sort of like even 2019 it was down into the 50s. So 58% in two 20 uh down into the 50s. So 58% in two 20 uh down into the 50s. So 58% in two 20 uh 19 59% in 2020 20 um in 2021 and 2022 19 59% in 2020 20 um in 2021 and 2022 19 59% in 2020 20 um in 2021 and 2022 was at 54%. So just over half of was at 54%. So just over half of was at 54%. So just over half of Americans uh said that they were u said Americans uh said that they were u said Americans uh said that they were u said that they made a commitment to Christ. that they made a commitment to Christ. that they made a commitment to Christ. But for for now, for three straight But for for now, for three straight But for for now, for three straight years, it went from 54% which was a real years, it went from 54% which was a real years, it went from 54% which was a real low mark in our 40-year history, to 59% low mark in our 40-year history, to 59% low mark in our 40-year history, to 59% in 2023 to 62% in in 2024 and now at in 2023 to 62% in in 2024 and now at in 2023 to 62% in in 2024 and now at 66%. And the really cool news is that 66%. And the really cool news is that 66%. And the really cool news is that when you look at the age uh ranges for when you look at the age uh ranges for when you look at the age uh ranges for this, uh a lot of that renewal, a lot of this, uh a lot of that renewal, a lot of this, uh a lot of that renewal, a lot of that commitment to Christ is coming from that commitment to Christ is coming from that commitment to Christ is coming from Gen Z and millennials, uh not just older Gen Z and millennials, uh not just older Gen Z and millennials, uh not just older people sort of saying they're people sort of saying they're people sort of saying they're Christians. Um so really really cool Christians. Um so really really cool Christians. Um so really really cool things. So you

things. So you things. So you know there's a lot of evidence and know there's a lot of evidence and know there's a lot of evidence and across a variety of different places across a variety of different places across a variety of different places that there is a a kind of spiritual that there is a a kind of spiritual that there is a a kind of spiritual resurgence an openness to spirituality. resurgence an openness to spirituality. resurgence an openness to spirituality. Um you know church attendance has sort Um you know church attendance has sort Um you know church attendance has sort of bounced to a a good a good healthy of bounced to a a good a good healthy of bounced to a a good a good healthy level. Not the all-time high but better level. Not the all-time high but better level. Not the all-time high but better than it was a couple years ago. And this than it was a couple years ago. And this than it was a couple years ago. And this is think one of the best and clearest is think one of the best and clearest is think one of the best and clearest indications we have that that change indications we have that that change indications we have that that change that's happening socially isn't just that's happening socially isn't just that's happening socially isn't just window dressing that there does seem to window dressing that there does seem to window dressing that there does seem to be a resurgence of interest and be a resurgence of interest and be a resurgence of interest and commitment to Jesus across our society. commitment to Jesus across our society. commitment to Jesus across our society. Uh even and especially among younger Uh even and especially among younger Uh even and especially among younger generations friends this is great news. generations friends this is great news. generations friends this is great news. This is the kind of stuff we have been This is the kind of stuff we have been This is the kind of stuff we have been praying for. This is the moment that I praying for. This is the moment that I praying for. This is the moment that I think we have been waiting for in think we have been waiting for in think we have been waiting for in ministry. Um my challenge to you is to ministry. Um my challenge to you is to ministry. Um my challenge to you is to thank God for a a moment of spiritual thank God for a a moment of spiritual thank God for a a moment of spiritual openness for trends that seem to be openness for trends that seem to be openness for trends that seem to be reversing and then what will you make of reversing and then what will you make of reversing and then what will you make of it? How will you help to disciple people it? How will you help to disciple people it? How will you help to disciple people so that this moment of spiritual so that this moment of spiritual so that this moment of spiritual openness and openness to Jesus uh can openness and openness to Jesus uh can openness and openness to Jesus uh can turn into even more deeprooted disciples turn into even more deeprooted disciples turn into even more deeprooted disciples in the years to come? That's uh the real in the years to come? That's uh the real in the years to come? That's uh the real challenge for us. But wonderful news challenge for us. But wonderful news challenge for us. But wonderful news coming from the data. Hey, we'll take coming from the data. Hey, we'll take coming from the data. Hey, we'll take that. You and I have worked together for that. You and I have worked together for that. You and I have worked together for years and we've often brought not very years and we've often brought not very years and we've often brought not very encouraging news, David. And you know encouraging news, David. And you know encouraging news, David. And you know what? You're right. So many people have what? You're right. So many people have what? You're right. So many people have prayed for this. Now, the cool thing prayed for this. Now, the cool thing prayed for this. Now, the cool thing with the state of the church is that with the state of the church is that with the state of the church is that you're releasing fresh data like this you're releasing fresh data like this you're releasing fresh data like this every month. And this is not old data.

every month. And this is not old data. every month. And this is not old data. If people want more, what you can do, If people want more, what you can do, If people want more, what you can do, leaders, is go to leaders, is go to leaders, is go to stateoftheurch.com. That's stateoftheurch.com. That's stateoftheurch.com. That's stateofthechurch.com where you can learn stateofthechurch.com where you can learn stateofthechurch.com where you can learn more. This data is being updated as we more. This data is being updated as we more. This data is being updated as we speak, whenever you're listening to speak, whenever you're listening to speak, whenever you're listening to this. We'll be back next month with a this. We'll be back next month with a this. We'll be back next month with a fresh episode of State of the Church, fresh episode of State of the Church, fresh episode of State of the Church, our little uh prequel to the podcast. our little uh prequel to the podcast. our little uh prequel to the podcast. And now to today's regularly scheduled And now to today's regularly scheduled And now to today's regularly scheduled programming. John, I've been looking programming. John, I've been looking programming. John, I've been looking forward to this conversation. Welcome forward to this conversation. Welcome forward to this conversation. Welcome back. Me, too, Carrie. It feels like back. Me, too, Carrie. It feels like back. Me, too, Carrie. It feels like it's been way too long since. Probably it's been way too long since. Probably it's been way too long since. Probably only a couple of years, but yeah, it's only a couple of years, but yeah, it's only a couple of years, but yeah, it's been too long. And I was telling you, my been too long. And I was telling you, my been too long. And I was telling you, my audience loves you. Like when we have audience loves you. Like when we have audience loves you. Like when we have John Eldridge John Eldridge John Eldridge on, people just people just love it. So on, people just people just love it. So on, people just people just love it. So that's great. It's an honor because that's great. It's an honor because that's great. It's an honor because you're doing such good work and I love you're doing such good work and I love you're doing such good work and I love our I love our chats. I do too. I do our I love our chats. I do too. I do our I love our chats. I do too. I do too, John. So, you know, I was thinking too, John. So, you know, I was thinking too, John. So, you know, I was thinking back as I was getting ready for this. I back as I was getting ready for this. I back as I was getting ready for this. I have a big year this year. I enter a new have a big year this year. I enter a new have a big year this year. I enter a new decade. I enter my 60s and um I was decade. I enter my 60s and um I was decade. I enter my 60s and um I was thinking back like you have the thinking back like you have the thinking back like you have the different stages of life which I think different stages of life which I think different stages of life which I think you know we worship eternal youth in you know we worship eternal youth in you know we worship eternal youth in this culture and when I look in the this culture and when I look in the this culture and when I look in the mirror I don't see as much youth as I mirror I don't see as much youth as I mirror I don't see as much youth as I used to. Uh John, I don't know maybe you used to. Uh John, I don't know maybe you used to. Uh John, I don't know maybe you know but we we have this know but we we have this know but we we have this idealization of youth um but you have a idealization of youth um but you have a idealization of youth um but you have a really different perspective and so I'm really different perspective and so I'm really different perspective and so I'm wondering we do have a ton of young wondering we do have a ton of young wondering we do have a ton of young listeners here but the thing I love listeners here but the thing I love listeners here but the thing I love about the next generation is they're about the next generation is they're about the next generation is they're looking for people like you and me to

looking for people like you and me to looking for people like you and me to mentor them. Right. mentor them. Right. mentor them. Right. Exactly. That's exactly right because Exactly. That's exactly right because Exactly. That's exactly right because the poverty right now is spiritual the poverty right now is spiritual the poverty right now is spiritual mothers and fathers. mothers and fathers. mothers and fathers. Yeah. And we can talk about why that is, Yeah. And we can talk about why that is, Yeah. And we can talk about why that is, but it partly has to do with the worship but it partly has to do with the worship but it partly has to do with the worship of the, you know, kind of eternal of the, you know, kind of eternal of the, you know, kind of eternal adolescence adolescence adolescence uh in culture. Um, yeah. So, happy to uh in culture. Um, yeah. So, happy to uh in culture. Um, yeah. So, happy to jump into that. Yeah. Take it wherever jump into that. Yeah. Take it wherever jump into that. Yeah. Take it wherever you want. Um, the floor is yours. Well, you want. Um, the floor is yours. Well, you want. Um, the floor is yours. Well, it's fascinating when you look uh if you it's fascinating when you look uh if you it's fascinating when you look uh if you read the biographies of, you know, read the biographies of, you know, read the biographies of, you know, famous people, Lincoln and and so on. If famous people, Lincoln and and so on. If famous people, Lincoln and and so on. If you look at the biblical record of you look at the biblical record of you look at the biblical record of famous characters like Moses and famous characters like Moses and famous characters like Moses and David, even Jesus, you you can identify David, even Jesus, you you can identify David, even Jesus, you you can identify these stages of development that right these stages of development that right these stages of development that right now I'll talk about men now I'll talk about men now I'll talk about men um that men go through that uh in my um that men go through that uh in my um that men go through that uh in my years, gosh, 35 years now as a as a years, gosh, 35 years now as a as a years, gosh, 35 years now as a as a Christian therapist has been really Christian therapist has been really Christian therapist has been really helpful to me in in working with guys helpful to me in in working with guys helpful to me in in working with guys through their different um stages and through their different um stages and through their different um stages and you know you know you know crisis because if here's the point I'm crisis because if here's the point I'm crisis because if here's the point I'm going to sketch this out in a minute but going to sketch this out in a minute but going to sketch this out in a minute but where we experience poverty or where we experience poverty or where we experience poverty or deprivation it's like attachment theory deprivation it's like attachment theory deprivation it's like attachment theory you know if if you don't get attachment you know if if you don't get attachment you know if if you don't get attachment um it affects your adult life and and um it affects your adult life and and um it affects your adult life and and it's the same with these stages if you it's the same with these stages if you it's the same with these stages if you don't receive the formation don't receive the formation don't receive the formation uh you can you'll see how it as we go on uh you can you'll see how it as we go on uh you can you'll see how it as we go on how it affects

how it affects how it affects um so um so um so the and this is true for little girls as the and this is true for little girls as the and this is true for little girls as well. The early stage is what I call well. The early stage is what I call well. The early stage is what I call belovedness, beloved son stage. And belovedness, beloved son stage. And belovedness, beloved son stage. And these are the young years where it's these are the young years where it's these are the young years where it's Lego and it's story time and it's ice Lego and it's story time and it's ice Lego and it's story time and it's ice cream, you know, with a loving parent um cream, you know, with a loving parent um cream, you know, with a loving parent um who is caring for you, a loving mom, who is caring for you, a loving mom, who is caring for you, a loving mom, loving dad. Um but masculine formation loving dad. Um but masculine formation loving dad. Um but masculine formation particularly takes place from a particularly takes place from a particularly takes place from a masculine source. So it's either going masculine source. So it's either going masculine source. So it's either going to be grandpa or a significant teacher. to be grandpa or a significant teacher. to be grandpa or a significant teacher. It might be a pastor, might be a priest, It might be a pastor, might be a priest, It might be a pastor, might be a priest, hopefully your dad is in the picture. hopefully your dad is in the picture. hopefully your dad is in the picture. And the beloved son stage, uh, it it's And the beloved son stage, uh, it it's And the beloved son stage, uh, it it's just so beautiful because it lays a just so beautiful because it lays a just so beautiful because it lays a bedrock bedrock bedrock foundation when a man reaches the king foundation when a man reaches the king foundation when a man reaches the king stage, which you are, uh, maturing out stage, which you are, uh, maturing out stage, which you are, uh, maturing out of and into the sage. I'm no longer a of and into the sage. I'm no longer a of and into the sage. I'm no longer a king. I'm a sage. No, no, no. You're a king. I'm a sage. No, no, no. You're a king. I'm a sage. No, no, no. You're a king still. king still. king still. clearly still at the helm of your of clearly still at the helm of your of clearly still at the helm of your of your whole uh outfit. But if a king your whole uh outfit. But if a king your whole uh outfit. But if a king doesn't know belovedness as a boy, this doesn't know belovedness as a boy, this doesn't know belovedness as a boy, this is where we see narcissistic leaders.

is where we see narcissistic leaders. is where we see narcissistic leaders. This is where we see political figures This is where we see political figures This is where we see political figures that they need to be the center of that they need to be the center of that they need to be the center of attention. They need to dominate the attention. They need to dominate the attention. They need to dominate the conversation in the room. You know, conversation in the room. You know, conversation in the room. You know, they're it's always their opinion most they're it's always their opinion most they're it's always their opinion most that matters, you know. And then you see that matters, you know. And then you see that matters, you know. And then you see like the multiple affairs and that kind like the multiple affairs and that kind like the multiple affairs and that kind of thing. it because they're still of thing. it because they're still of thing. it because they're still searching for love. They're they didn't searching for love. They're they didn't searching for love. They're they didn't they just never knew as a child you you they just never knew as a child you you they just never knew as a child you you are deeply and unconditionally loved. So are deeply and unconditionally loved. So are deeply and unconditionally loved. So it breeds like an insecurity or what it breeds like an insecurity or what it breeds like an insecurity or what does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it does it breed? Oh, absolutely. It it it it's worse than that. It is a famished it's worse than that. It is a famished it's worse than that. It is a famished craving in the soul that will compel craving in the soul that will compel craving in the soul that will compel that person through multiple that person through multiple that person through multiple relationships, multiple addictions, you relationships, multiple addictions, you relationships, multiple addictions, you know. Um also also fear like it will know. Um also also fear like it will know. Um also also fear like it will also paralyze people from moving also paralyze people from moving also paralyze people from moving confidently into their confidently into their confidently into their calling because they didn't have the calling because they didn't have the calling because they didn't have the security of love. So they're desperately security of love. So they're desperately security of love. So they're desperately afraid of abandonment, betrayal, afraid of abandonment, betrayal, afraid of abandonment, betrayal, rejection. You know what will people rejection. You know what will people rejection. You know what will people think of think of think of me? Right? Oh yeah. If you're afraid of me? Right? Oh yeah. If you're afraid of me? Right? Oh yeah. If you're afraid of what people think of you, that is a that what people think of you, that is a that what people think of you, that is a that is a paralyzing thing as you try and is a paralyzing thing as you try and is a paralyzing thing as you try and move into your career, right? Well, that move into your career, right? Well, that move into your career, right? Well, that gets into people pleasing, which I think gets into people pleasing, which I think gets into people pleasing, which I think most church leaders would say guilty most church leaders would say guilty most church leaders would say guilty because you want to be seen. Oh, it's because you want to be seen. Oh, it's because you want to be seen. Oh, it's such a trap, Carrie. You want to be seen such a trap, Carrie. You want to be seen such a trap, Carrie. You want to be seen in the church a as someone who is in the church a as someone who is in the church a as someone who is reflecting Jesus, right? So, you're reflecting Jesus, right? So, you're reflecting Jesus, right? So, you're trying to be loving and wise and mature

trying to be loving and wise and mature trying to be loving and wise and mature and kind and but you're always and kind and but you're always and kind and but you're always reading the crowd. Do they like me? Do reading the crowd. Do they like me? Do reading the crowd. Do they like me? Do they still like me? you know, did they they still like me? you know, did they they still like me? you know, did they like me this Sunday? You know, did they like me this Sunday? You know, did they like me this Sunday? You know, did they like me more this Sunday than last like me more this Sunday than last like me more this Sunday than last Sunday? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it also Sunday? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it also Sunday? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it also paralyzes leaders from being able to paralyzes leaders from being able to paralyzes leaders from being able to make difficult decisions make difficult decisions make difficult decisions that too. Oh gosh. Because And I realize that too. Oh gosh. Because And I realize that too. Oh gosh. Because And I realize we're blurring the stages. Let me tell we're blurring the stages. Let me tell we're blurring the stages. Let me tell you the stages and then it'll help our you the stages and then it'll help our you the stages and then it'll help our conversation. You have beloved son and conversation. You have beloved son and conversation. You have beloved son and then you have what I call like the then you have what I call like the then you have what I call like the ranger stage. I was going to call it ranger stage. I was going to call it ranger stage. I was going to call it shepherd out of David's life. It's the shepherd out of David's life. It's the shepherd out of David's life. It's the adolescence to the to 20 where there's a adolescence to the to 20 where there's a adolescence to the to 20 where there's a lot of formation going on. Then you have lot of formation going on. Then you have lot of formation going on. Then you have warrior. The man needs a mission. He warrior. The man needs a mission. He warrior. The man needs a mission. He needs a cause. He he needs something to needs a cause. He he needs something to needs a cause. He he needs something to serve that's bigger than himself. serve that's bigger than himself. serve that's bigger than himself. Warrior lover begins to overlap. He Warrior lover begins to overlap. He Warrior lover begins to overlap. He becomes a lover, right? And hopefully becomes a lover, right? And hopefully becomes a lover, right? And hopefully finds the love of his life. Um king and finds the love of his life. Um king and finds the love of his life. Um king and sage. And and so beloved son lays this sage. And and so beloved son lays this sage. And and so beloved son lays this foundation that allows the king to make foundation that allows the king to make foundation that allows the king to make tough tough tough decisions because kings disappoint decisions because kings disappoint decisions because kings disappoint people people people constantly, right? You got to let people constantly, right? You got to let people constantly, right? You got to let people go. You you know you got the wrong go. You you know you got the wrong go. You you know you got the wrong people on the team. You and if he is people on the team. You and if he is people on the team. You and if he is still or she is paralyzed in the search still or she is paralyzed in the search still or she is paralyzed in the search for belovedness, they don't want to for belovedness, they don't want to for belovedness, they don't want to offend anyone. Right.

offend anyone. Right. offend anyone. Right. Right. I want to let people down. Yeah. Right. I want to let people down. Yeah. Right. I want to let people down. Yeah. And that becomes a kind of paralysis. So And that becomes a kind of paralysis. So And that becomes a kind of paralysis. So here here's the good news about the here here's the good news about the here here's the good news about the stages because as I describe this, the stages because as I describe this, the stages because as I describe this, the beauty is is that God will meet you beauty is is that God will meet you beauty is is that God will meet you whatever age you are and he will whatever age you are and he will whatever age you are and he will address the lack of address the lack of address the lack of formation that you didn't get earlier. formation that you didn't get earlier. formation that you didn't get earlier. Okay? So you've got a king and he's Okay? So you've got a king and he's Okay? So you've got a king and he's buying the boats and he's buying the buying the boats and he's buying the buying the boats and he's buying the houses and he's just chasing, you know, houses and he's just chasing, you know, houses and he's just chasing, you know, childhood childhood childhood joy. Papa will come along and he will joy. Papa will come along and he will joy. Papa will come along and he will address the ache in the soul, right? address the ache in the soul, right? address the ache in the soul, right? Because every man still needs, every Because every man still needs, every Because every man still needs, every woman still needs to hear, you are woman still needs to hear, you are woman still needs to hear, you are deeply deeply deeply adored. You are father and now you're adored. You are father and now you're adored. You are father and now you're God. Your father god adores you. What's God. Your father god adores you. What's God. Your father god adores you. What's fascinating is that even Jesus needed to fascinating is that even Jesus needed to fascinating is that even Jesus needed to hear this. You take the baptism moment hear this. You take the baptism moment hear this. You take the baptism moment and he comes up out of the water and the and he comes up out of the water and the and he comes up out of the water and the father speaks. Remember what he says? father speaks. Remember what he says? father speaks. Remember what he says? Yeah. You are my son, beloved son. I am Yeah. You are my son, beloved son. I am Yeah. You are my son, beloved son. I am well pleased. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

well pleased. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. well pleased. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus, I adore you and I'm very proud of Jesus, I adore you and I'm very proud of Jesus, I adore you and I'm very proud of you. Well, what child doesn't crave you. Well, what child doesn't crave you. Well, what child doesn't crave that? that? that? Okay. Stage beloved moves into it's a Okay. Stage beloved moves into it's a Okay. Stage beloved moves into it's a fascinating thing. You know, fascinating thing. You know, fascinating thing. You know, pre-adolescence right on this the shift. pre-adolescence right on this the shift. pre-adolescence right on this the shift. Um, the Um, the Um, the boy particularly, we're talking about boy particularly, we're talking about boy particularly, we're talking about the stages of the masculine journey the stages of the masculine journey the stages of the masculine journey right now. Um, cries out to be tested. right now. Um, cries out to be tested. right now. Um, cries out to be tested. They want bigger adventures. You know, They want bigger adventures. You know, They want bigger adventures. You know, it's not it's not just riding the bike it's not it's not just riding the bike it's not it's not just riding the bike to the park anymore. You know, they to the park anymore. You know, they to the park anymore. You know, they might want to get a motorbike or they might want to get a motorbike or they might want to get a motorbike or they they might want to learn to ski or or if they might want to learn to ski or or if they might want to learn to ski or or if they are skiing, they want to do really they are skiing, they want to do really they are skiing, they want to do really difficult stuff. You'll see like this is difficult stuff. You'll see like this is difficult stuff. You'll see like this is a big adventure part. Um and it's a big adventure part. Um and it's a big adventure part. Um and it's adventure and hard work. This is where adventure and hard work. This is where adventure and hard work. This is where he should have a job. He he should be he he should have a job. He he should be he he should have a job. He he should be he should be earning and learning and and should be earning and learning and and should be earning and learning and and the formation in the teenage years the formation in the teenage years the formation in the teenage years uh is not video games. Yeah. Yeah. uh is not video games. Yeah. Yeah. uh is not video games. Yeah. Yeah. It's not the formation is um you have to It's not the formation is um you have to It's not the formation is um you have to learn that there is a way things learn that there is a way things learn that there is a way things work and this is like you know you're in work and this is like you know you're in work and this is like you know you're in a canoe you don't turn it against the a canoe you don't turn it against the a canoe you don't turn it against the wind sideways to the wind right you wind sideways to the wind right you wind sideways to the wind right you you're working with electricity you have you're working with electricity you have you're working with electricity you have to learn don't stand in water there's to learn don't stand in water there's to learn don't stand in water there's okay there is a way things work this the okay there is a way things work this the okay there is a way things work this the the toddler within us rebelss at that the toddler within us rebelss at that the toddler within us rebelss at that because we just want to be able to do because we just want to be able to do because we just want to be able to do things the way we want to do things. I

things the way we want to do things. I things the way we want to do things. I mean, I I I know that some of the mean, I I I know that some of the mean, I I I know that some of the parallels to the current American parallels to the current American parallels to the current American administration are coming to administration are coming to administration are coming to people, but the the the toddler within people, but the the the toddler within people, but the the the toddler within is a tyrant because they don't want to is a tyrant because they don't want to is a tyrant because they don't want to submit to the realities of life. Well, submit to the realities of life. Well, submit to the realities of life. Well, the the the ranger stage, I was going to the the the ranger stage, I was going to the the the ranger stage, I was going to call it shepherd, but that sounds so call it shepherd, but that sounds so call it shepherd, but that sounds so soft and religious, but think about soft and religious, but think about soft and religious, but think about David's life. Uh, it's like St. David's life. Uh, it's like St. David's life. Uh, it's like St. Patrick's life, you know, when Patrick Patrick's life, you know, when Patrick Patrick's life, you know, when Patrick was kidnapped as a slave and and taken was kidnapped as a slave and and taken was kidnapped as a slave and and taken to Ireland first in slavery. Patrick and to Ireland first in slavery. Patrick and to Ireland first in slavery. Patrick and David, they spent weeks David, they spent weeks David, they spent weeks outdoors looking after sheep, defending outdoors looking after sheep, defending outdoors looking after sheep, defending them from wild them from wild them from wild animals. So that when David does move animals. So that when David does move animals. So that when David does move into the warrior stage and he faces into the warrior stage and he faces into the warrior stage and he faces Goliath, Goliath, Goliath, uh, he's like, "Oh, this is no big deal. uh, he's like, "Oh, this is no big deal. uh, he's like, "Oh, this is no big deal. My God has protected me from bears." My God has protected me from bears." My God has protected me from bears." Yeah. And shepherd isn't help me with Yeah. And shepherd isn't help me with Yeah. And shepherd isn't help me with this for a minute. Shepherd, as I this for a minute. Shepherd, as I this for a minute. Shepherd, as I understand it, as you understand it, as understand it, as you understand it, as understand it, as you understand it, as scripture talks about it, it's not like, scripture talks about it, it's not like, scripture talks about it, it's not like, you know, gentle little playing a loot you know, gentle little playing a loot you know, gentle little playing a loot by the field. It's like you are by the field. It's like you are by the field. It's like you are bears, lions, you're fighting them off.

bears, lions, you're fighting them off. bears, lions, you're fighting them off. You're It's a It's a tough physical job. You're It's a It's a tough physical job. You're It's a It's a tough physical job. It's like I'm reading through the Old It's like I'm reading through the Old It's like I'm reading through the Old Testament right now. It's like if you're Testament right now. It's like if you're Testament right now. It's like if you're a priest, you're a butcher. And you a priest, you're a butcher. And you a priest, you're a butcher. And you know, literally you are like dividing up know, literally you are like dividing up know, literally you are like dividing up the animals. There's blood on you. Um the animals. There's blood on you. Um the animals. There's blood on you. Um like there's some strength involved in like there's some strength involved in like there's some strength involved in being a priest. Exactly. And these are being a priest. Exactly. And these are being a priest. Exactly. And these are life lessons that teach you about so life lessons that teach you about so life lessons that teach you about so many other things. Okay. Because even many other things. Okay. Because even many other things. Okay. Because even handling, you know, um game and and handling, you know, um game and and handling, you know, um game and and domestic animals, you know, livestock, domestic animals, you know, livestock, domestic animals, you know, livestock, when you're processing them, there's a when you're processing them, there's a when you're processing them, there's a right way to do it and there are a lot right way to do it and there are a lot right way to do it and there are a lot of wrong ways to do it. Totally. Okay. of wrong ways to do it. Totally. Okay. of wrong ways to do it. Totally. Okay. So that allows the beloved son to begin So that allows the beloved son to begin So that allows the beloved son to begin to learn some maturity. It it it it it to learn some maturity. It it it it it to learn some maturity. It it it it it has formation to it. Um and I think has formation to it. Um and I think has formation to it. Um and I think adventure and hard work are really adventure and hard work are really adventure and hard work are really crucial to crucial to crucial to that. You get to about the 18 you know that. You get to about the 18 you know that. You get to about the 18 you know 1920 year mark and that young man needs 1920 year mark and that young man needs 1920 year mark and that young man needs a mission. This is the warrior stage.

a mission. This is the warrior stage. a mission. This is the warrior stage. And what's fascinating if you look at And what's fascinating if you look at And what's fascinating if you look at you know we can take a negative example you know we can take a negative example you know we can take a negative example for a moment. If you look at most of the for a moment. If you look at most of the for a moment. If you look at most of the terrorist movements in the world, they terrorist movements in the world, they terrorist movements in the world, they recruit recruit recruit 17-year-olds because in his heart, he 17-year-olds because in his heart, he 17-year-olds because in his heart, he knows he's made for a big knows he's made for a big knows he's made for a big story, right? And he's know he's knows story, right? And he's know he's knows story, right? And he's know he's knows he's made to be a warrior. And here's he's made to be a warrior. And here's he's made to be a warrior. And here's the fascinating thing. Uh this is the fascinating thing. Uh this is the fascinating thing. Uh this is documented about ISIS. When they do documented about ISIS. When they do documented about ISIS. When they do their recruiting, they send a father their recruiting, they send a father their recruiting, they send a father figure in and the first thing he does is figure in and the first thing he does is figure in and the first thing he does is he buys him a Coke. he buys him a Coke. he buys him a Coke. Buys him a CocaCola. Yeah. Because Buys him a CocaCola. Yeah. Because Buys him a CocaCola. Yeah. Because you're a beloved son. He put Yeah. He you're a beloved son. He put Yeah. He you're a beloved son. He put Yeah. He And so he begins to show that fatherly And so he begins to show that fatherly And so he begins to show that fatherly affection. And then he gives him a affection. And then he gives him a affection. And then he gives him a bigger story. Hey, you want to be part bigger story. Hey, you want to be part bigger story. Hey, you want to be part of a big story? You want to be part of a of a big story? You want to be part of a of a big story? You want to be part of a mission? You're a warrior. You're made mission? You're a warrior. You're made mission? You're a warrior. You're made for this. for this. for this. That's uh That's uh That's uh tragically um a corrupt version of a tragically um a corrupt version of a tragically um a corrupt version of a very beautiful stage in a man's life. very beautiful stage in a man's life. very beautiful stage in a man's life. You you need young men to be developed You you need young men to be developed You you need young men to be developed in the warrior stage because the warrior in the warrior stage because the warrior in the warrior stage because the warrior stage is learning that you have a stage is learning that you have a stage is learning that you have a strength. It is for others. You want strength. It is for others. You want strength. It is for others. You want those firemen to run into that burning those firemen to run into that burning those firemen to run into that burning house, they got to have a lot of warrior house, they got to have a lot of warrior house, they got to have a lot of warrior in them, right? I I I give up my life in them, right? I I I give up my life in them, right? I I I give up my life for you, right? Yeah. Okay. Uh, but on for you, right? Yeah. Okay. Uh, but on for you, right? Yeah. Okay. Uh, but on and on it goes. You're going to need the and on it goes. You're going to need the and on it goes. You're going to need the warrior if you're going to finish your PhD. Uh, you're going to need the

PhD. Uh, you're going to need the warrior if you're going to plant a warrior if you're going to plant a warrior if you're going to plant a church or be part of a church plan. I church or be part of a church plan. I church or be part of a church plan. I mean, that is a fight. And of course, mean, that is a fight. And of course, mean, that is a fight. And of course, the kingdom of darkness is going to come the kingdom of darkness is going to come the kingdom of darkness is going to come against us and learning the skills, you against us and learning the skills, you against us and learning the skills, you know, of prayer, right? Yeah. Okay. So, know, of prayer, right? Yeah. Okay. So, know, of prayer, right? Yeah. Okay. So, that's really important. And I guess that's really important. And I guess that's really important. And I guess gangs operate the same way. They're gangs operate the same way. They're gangs operate the same way. They're recruiting at that warrior stage too, recruiting at that warrior stage too, recruiting at that warrior stage too, just like terrorist organizations. just like terrorist organizations. just like terrorist organizations. Exactly. Yeah. Because the because the Exactly. Yeah. Because the because the Exactly. Yeah. Because the because the desire is there. A and masculine desire is there. A and masculine desire is there. A and masculine formation in particular doesn't happen formation in particular doesn't happen formation in particular doesn't happen from a feminine source. This is why from a feminine source. This is why from a feminine source. This is why pornography doesn't work. Pornography is pornography doesn't work. Pornography is pornography doesn't work. Pornography is not about sex. Pornography is the search not about sex. Pornography is the search not about sex. Pornography is the search for masculine validation. For a moment, for masculine validation. For a moment, for masculine validation. For a moment, I feel alive as a man. And and if you I feel alive as a man. And and if you I feel alive as a man. And and if you know, if we can be a little bit candid, know, if we can be a little bit candid, know, if we can be a little bit candid, if you feel arousal, right, and you're if you feel arousal, right, and you're if you feel arousal, right, and you're feeling, whoa, like I I have what it feeling, whoa, like I I have what it feeling, whoa, like I I have what it takes. This woman makes me feel alive or takes. This woman makes me feel alive or takes. This woman makes me feel alive or this imagery or this film or this video. this imagery or this film or this video.

this imagery or this film or this video. Um it the core search. So, so let me go Um it the core search. So, so let me go Um it the core search. So, so let me go back to the little boy for a second. He back to the little boy for a second. He back to the little boy for a second. He needs two things. He needs to know he's needs two things. He needs to know he's needs two things. He needs to know he's beloved and he needs to know he has what beloved and he needs to know he has what beloved and he needs to know he has what it takes. That's the core lessons of it takes. That's the core lessons of it takes. That's the core lessons of boyhood. You are loved and you have what boyhood. You are loved and you have what boyhood. You are loved and you have what it it it takes. So the overprotective mother, for takes. So the overprotective mother, for takes. So the overprotective mother, for example, you know, doesn't let her her example, you know, doesn't let her her example, you know, doesn't let her her son take risks. Can't climb the tree, son take risks. Can't climb the tree, son take risks. Can't climb the tree, don't rough house, you know, calm down, don't rough house, you know, calm down, don't rough house, you know, calm down, but he needs to ride his bike with no but he needs to ride his bike with no but he needs to ride his bike with no hands. He needs to know I've got what it hands. He needs to know I've got what it hands. He needs to know I've got what it takes. He needs to learn to do a takes. He needs to learn to do a takes. He needs to learn to do a backflip on the trampoline. He needs backflip on the trampoline. He needs backflip on the trampoline. He needs Okay, all that all that testing. Um, Okay, all that all that testing. Um, Okay, all that all that testing. Um, pornography is an artificial intimacy pornography is an artificial intimacy pornography is an artificial intimacy and and and validation. It's it's literally speaking validation. It's it's literally speaking validation. It's it's literally speaking to that hunger, but it never works, to that hunger, but it never works, to that hunger, but it never works, right? It doesn't have a lasting, oh, right? It doesn't have a lasting, oh, right? It doesn't have a lasting, oh, now I know who I am. Now I know who I now I know who I am. Now I know who I now I know who I am. Now I know who I am. Right? Okay. Beloved, ranger, am. Right? Okay. Beloved, ranger, am. Right? Okay. Beloved, ranger, warrior, lover. I put the lover after warrior, lover. I put the lover after warrior, lover. I put the lover after the warrior because it I hope that the the warrior because it I hope that the the warrior because it I hope that the young man has had a little bit of young man has had a little bit of young man has had a little bit of formation in the warrior stage because formation in the warrior stage because formation in the warrior stage because when when when he enters into a lifelong partnership he enters into a lifelong partnership he enters into a lifelong partnership with a woman, with a woman, with a woman, um he's going to need to come through um he's going to need to come through um he's going to need to come through for her in pretty profound ways. And he for her in pretty profound ways. And he for her in pretty profound ways. And he can't be looking to her for his can't be looking to her for his can't be looking to her for his validation or it'll

validation or it'll validation or it'll him, right? him, right? him, right? you know, and that lesson seems to be you know, and that lesson seems to be you know, and that lesson seems to be lost with a lot of people these days. lost with a lot of people these days. lost with a lot of people these days. And I'm not sure I had that lesson going And I'm not sure I had that lesson going And I'm not sure I had that lesson going into marriage. You know, Tony and I will into marriage. You know, Tony and I will into marriage. You know, Tony and I will be married 35 years, but like there were be married 35 years, but like there were be married 35 years, but like there were times I was looking to her for times I was looking to her for times I was looking to her for validation. And it's it's a bit of a validation. And it's it's a bit of a validation. And it's it's a bit of a disaster. Don't do that. It does because disaster. Don't do that. It does because disaster. Don't do that. It does because it it it cripples you from um making it it it cripples you from um making it it it cripples you from um making tough tough tough decisions, right? or maybe taking an decisions, right? or maybe taking an decisions, right? or maybe taking an opposite position on something. If opposite position on something. If opposite position on something. If you're looking for validation, it's how you're looking for validation, it's how you're looking for validation, it's how am I doing? How am I doing? How am I am I doing? How am I doing? How am I am I doing? How am I doing? How am I doing? Do you love me? Do you love me? doing? Do you love me? Do you love me? doing? Do you love me? Do you love me? You know, um it's a disaster for a You know, um it's a disaster for a You know, um it's a disaster for a marriage. And women don't like that. marriage. And women don't like that. marriage. And women don't like that. They don't like feeling like the verdict They don't like feeling like the verdict They don't like feeling like the verdict on their husband's identity is on them. on their husband's identity is on them. on their husband's identity is on them. They don't like that feeling at all. They don't like that feeling at all. They don't like that feeling at all. It's like be a man. Mhm. Mhm. I I was It's like be a man. Mhm. Mhm. I I was It's like be a man. Mhm. Mhm. I I was literally having a conversation recently literally having a conversation recently literally having a conversation recently with a woman whose husband was going with a woman whose husband was going with a woman whose husband was going through a bit of an identity crisis and through a bit of an identity crisis and through a bit of an identity crisis and her her her words, "I am not attracted to an words, "I am not attracted to an words, "I am not attracted to an insecure man." Like, you need to figure insecure man." Like, you need to figure insecure man." Like, you need to figure this out. I've heard that from women this out. I've heard that from women this out. I've heard that from women before. Yeah. Yeah. And it if you don't before. Yeah. Yeah. And it if you don't before. Yeah. Yeah. And it if you don't go through the formation that I'm go through the formation that I'm go through the formation that I'm describing and then you turn to the describing and then you turn to the describing and then you turn to the woman and the woman feels like the woman and the woman feels like the woman and the woman feels like the answer to your life's question, it is a answer to your life's question, it is a answer to your life's question, it is a disaster.

disaster. disaster. But with but and then you know he'll go But with but and then you know he'll go But with but and then you know he'll go through ser serial partners and he'll through ser serial partners and he'll through ser serial partners and he'll never be able to commit and there's never be able to commit and there's never be able to commit and there's always yeah you didn't you didn't always yeah you didn't you didn't always yeah you didn't you didn't fulfill me so I'm going to go find fulfill me so I'm going to go find fulfill me so I'm going to go find somebody who will bingo yeah wow all somebody who will bingo yeah wow all somebody who will bingo yeah wow all right so that's a lover stage and okay right so that's a lover stage and okay right so that's a lover stage and okay roughly beloved son lasts until early roughly beloved son lasts until early roughly beloved son lasts until early teen years 10 beloved son is about 10 teen years 10 beloved son is about 10 teen years 10 beloved son is about 10 years old ranger is 10 to 18 okay years old ranger is 10 to 18 okay years old ranger is 10 to 18 okay warrior starts around 18 and in some warrior starts around 18 and in some warrior starts around 18 and in some ways goes for the rest of your life But ways goes for the rest of your life But ways goes for the rest of your life But it goes until 40 when you become a it goes until 40 when you become a it goes until 40 when you become a king. Uh around the age of 40 is the king. Uh around the age of 40 is the king. Uh around the age of 40 is the transition to king. But I want to So transition to king. But I want to So transition to king. But I want to So you're a warrior lover or those are two you're a warrior lover or those are two you're a warrior lover or those are two different stages? You're a warrior different stages? You're a warrior different stages? You're a warrior lover. Okay. And obviously these are the lover. Okay. And obviously these are the lover. Okay. And obviously these are the age of young families and young kids and age of young families and young kids and age of young families and young kids and young career and he's got to he's got to young career and he's got to he's got to young career and he's got to he's got to get out there and fight the wolf and the get out there and fight the wolf and the get out there and fight the wolf and the bear so to speak and you know um show bear so to speak and you know um show bear so to speak and you know um show himself worthy in the marketplace, himself worthy in the marketplace, himself worthy in the marketplace, right? But he's also got to come come right? But he's also got to come come right? But he's also got to come come home and love. And um there is a home and love. And um there is a home and love. And um there is a movement. What's so fascinating about movement. What's so fascinating about movement. What's so fascinating about this Carrie is that when I wrote Wild at this Carrie is that when I wrote Wild at this Carrie is that when I wrote Wild at Heart, we were living in a very Heart, we were living in a very Heart, we were living in a very different world than we do now. Like the different world than we do now. Like the different world than we do now. Like the wave of gender dysphoria had not yet wave of gender dysphoria had not yet wave of gender dysphoria had not yet hit. Trans questions and identity and hit. Trans questions and identity and hit. Trans questions and identity and all that. The the pendulum is so swung.

all that. The the pendulum is so swung. all that. The the pendulum is so swung. There's a there are a lot of men now who There's a there are a lot of men now who There's a there are a lot of men now who are listening to podcasts and following are listening to podcasts and following are listening to podcasts and following leaders looking for masculine leaders looking for masculine leaders looking for masculine leadership, but it's it's it's basically leadership, but it's it's it's basically leadership, but it's it's it's basically it it's lacking the lover because it's it it's lacking the lover because it's it it's lacking the lover because it's like, well, you need to handle firearms like, well, you need to handle firearms like, well, you need to handle firearms and you need to you need to uh lift and you need to you need to uh lift and you need to you need to uh lift weights. You need to be bench pressing weights. You need to be bench pressing weights. You need to be bench pressing at least 450 or you're not a man. And at least 450 or you're not a man. And at least 450 or you're not a man. And it's this it's this it's this hurahh, you know, it's basically I want hurahh, you know, it's basically I want hurahh, you know, it's basically I want to be a Navy Seal in a citizen life. to be a Navy Seal in a citizen life. to be a Navy Seal in a citizen life. Okay, that's what these guys are Okay, that's what these guys are Okay, that's what these guys are craving. And some of that is great, craving. And some of that is great, craving. And some of that is great, right? If these guys are first right? If these guys are first right? If these guys are first responders and stuff, you want them to responders and stuff, you want them to responders and stuff, you want them to be in good shape. The thing is is can he be in good shape. The thing is is can he be in good shape. The thing is is can he take his 8-year-old daughter out for a take his 8-year-old daughter out for a take his 8-year-old daughter out for a date? Can he listen to the heart of his date? Can he listen to the heart of his date? Can he listen to the heart of his 16-year-old daughter? Right? If you 16-year-old daughter? Right? If you 16-year-old daughter? Right? If you don't have the lover in you, which is don't have the lover in you, which is don't have the lover in you, which is which is the right brain, it's the more which is the right brain, it's the more which is the right brain, it's the more sensitive side, the intuitive. If that sensitive side, the intuitive. If that sensitive side, the intuitive. If that hasn't been developed in you and you are hasn't been developed in you and you are hasn't been developed in you and you are only, you know, warrior, poof, that's only, you know, warrior, poof, that's only, you know, warrior, poof, that's going to be rough on all of the women in going to be rough on all of the women in going to be rough on all of the women in your world. So, you see part of that in your world. So, you see part of that in your world. So, you see part of that in culture, but not the whole picture. It's culture, but not the whole picture. It's culture, but not the whole picture. It's not. It's like a caricature now. And let not. It's like a caricature now. And let not. It's like a caricature now. And let me let me back up because this this me let me back up because this this me let me back up because this this occurred to me while we were talking.

occurred to me while we were talking. occurred to me while we were talking. this framework you've been teaching for this framework you've been teaching for this framework you've been teaching for several decades now. Yeah. Right. Um and several decades now. Yeah. Right. Um and several decades now. Yeah. Right. Um and it hit different 20 years ago than it's it hit different 20 years ago than it's it hit different 20 years ago than it's hitting today. No question. And I've got hitting today. No question. And I've got hitting today. No question. And I've got Mark Sers on the podcast. I don't know Mark Sers on the podcast. I don't know Mark Sers on the podcast. I don't know whether it'll be before or after this whether it'll be before or after this whether it'll be before or after this episode, but we're talking about was episode, but we're talking about was episode, but we're talking about was 2023 the year that woke broke because I 2023 the year that woke broke because I 2023 the year that woke broke because I imagine you got a lot of critique around imagine you got a lot of critique around imagine you got a lot of critique around this framework over the last 10 years. this framework over the last 10 years. this framework over the last 10 years. Did you? Yeah. What kind of push back Did you? Yeah. What kind of push back Did you? Yeah. What kind of push back would people give to this idea that men would people give to this idea that men would people give to this idea that men are warriors, lovers, are warriors, lovers, are warriors, lovers, kings, rangers? What what was the kings, rangers? What what was the kings, rangers? What what was the critique of that that you could probably critique of that that you could probably critique of that that you could probably write it? write it? write it? Yeah. Uh your Yeah. Uh your Yeah. Uh your caricatures, you know, you're putting caricatures, you know, you're putting caricatures, you know, you're putting this is too rigid. There are a lot of this is too rigid. There are a lot of this is too rigid. There are a lot of men that are not interested in, you men that are not interested in, you men that are not interested in, you know, movies like Fight Club and Navy know, movies like Fight Club and Navy know, movies like Fight Club and Navy Seal stories. Seal stories. Seal stories. Um, so that but if I get a chance to Um, so that but if I get a chance to Um, so that but if I get a chance to talk to them, talk to them, talk to them, uh, I want to come back quickly to say uh, I want to come back quickly to say uh, I want to come back quickly to say if you came to a Wild at Heart retreat, if you came to a Wild at Heart retreat, if you came to a Wild at Heart retreat, we do these four day healing experiences we do these four day healing experiences we do these four day healing experiences for men. You would see more for men. You would see more for men. You would see more tears than you've seen in the company of tears than you've seen in the company of tears than you've seen in the company of men probably in your men probably in your men probably in your life because this isn't about being a life because this isn't about being a life because this isn't about being a Navy Seal, though I admire them very Navy Seal, though I admire them very Navy Seal, though I admire them very much. This isn't about being a first much. This isn't about being a first much. This isn't about being a first responder, though I admire them very responder, though I admire them very responder, though I admire them very much. However, I'm not going to yield much. However, I'm not going to yield much. However, I'm not going to yield the ground that courage is essential to

the ground that courage is essential to the ground that courage is essential to masculine expression, masculine expression, masculine expression, right? right? right? Cowardice does not serve the community Cowardice does not serve the community Cowardice does not serve the community at all. Yeah. Nor does at all. Yeah. Nor does at all. Yeah. Nor does narcissism. Okay. you know, chasing narcissism. Okay. you know, chasing narcissism. Okay. you know, chasing belovedness and buying yourself things belovedness and buying yourself things belovedness and buying yourself things and being the center of the story. That and being the center of the story. That and being the center of the story. That doesn't serve anybody. So, these doesn't serve anybody. So, these doesn't serve anybody. So, these categories, I I really do think they're categories, I I really do think they're categories, I I really do think they're eternal. You'll see them in primitive eternal. You'll see them in primitive eternal. You'll see them in primitive cultures, but you'll also see them in cultures, but you'll also see them in cultures, but you'll also see them in Shakespeare, right? I mean, I'm Shakespeare, right? I mean, I'm Shakespeare, right? I mean, I'm describing King Lear's life. Yeah. Okay. describing King Lear's life. Yeah. Okay. describing King Lear's life. Yeah. Okay. King Lear is still seeking belovedness King Lear is still seeking belovedness King Lear is still seeking belovedness and he blows up his kingdom and ruins and he blows up his kingdom and ruins and he blows up his kingdom and ruins his family because the I don't know if his family because the I don't know if his family because the I don't know if you remember the test in the story, but you remember the test in the story, but you remember the test in the story, but he divides his kingdom up between his he divides his kingdom up between his he divides his kingdom up between his three daughters based on how much they three daughters based on how much they three daughters based on how much they tell him they love tell him they love tell him they love him and he destroys everything, right? him and he destroys everything, right? him and he destroys everything, right? He's the He's the He's the classic king who wasn't the beloved son. classic king who wasn't the beloved son. classic king who wasn't the beloved son. And it goes back to you didn't get that And it goes back to you didn't get that And it goes back to you didn't get that beloved son. Yes. attachment, that beloved son. Yes. attachment, that beloved son. Yes. attachment, that security as a child. That's right. Um, security as a child. That's right. Um, security as a child. That's right. Um, no, it's interesting, you know, because no, it's interesting, you know, because no, it's interesting, you know, because the patriarchy was so criticized 10, 12 the patriarchy was so criticized 10, 12 the patriarchy was so criticized 10, 12 years ago, and there's definitely years ago, and there's definitely years ago, and there's definitely excesses and stereotypes that need to be excesses and stereotypes that need to be excesses and stereotypes that need to be gone, but you look at the surge in gone, but you look at the surge in gone, but you look at the surge in Jordan Peterson over the last 8 years or Jordan Peterson over the last 8 years or Jordan Peterson over the last 8 years or so. And he's like, deal with the so. And he's like, deal with the so. And he's like, deal with the patriarchy. Like, it's real. Like, men, patriarchy. Like, it's real. Like, men, patriarchy. Like, it's real. Like, men, he's doing a version. It's not the same he's doing a version. It's not the same he's doing a version. It's not the same as yours, but saying men need to have as yours, but saying men need to have as yours, but saying men need to have confidence. Men need to, you know, make confidence. Men need to, you know, make confidence. Men need to, you know, make their bed. They need to go have a fight their bed. They need to go have a fight their bed. They need to go have a fight because life is hard. Yep. You know,

because life is hard. Yep. You know, because life is hard. Yep. You know, etc., etc. Um, you know, Peterson is and etc., etc. Um, you know, Peterson is and etc., etc. Um, you know, Peterson is and Rogan, you were about to use Rogan. Rogan, you were about to use Rogan. Rogan, you were about to use Rogan. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, these are great Yeah. Go ahead. Well, these are great Yeah. Go ahead. Well, these are great examples of the father hunger you see. examples of the father hunger you see. examples of the father hunger you see. Um, that young men in particular are Um, that young men in particular are Um, that young men in particular are looking for father figures to get what looking for father figures to get what looking for father figures to get what they did not get in their life. They they did not get in their life. They they did not get in their life. They were not taken through these stages. As were not taken through these stages. As were not taken through these stages. As I was raising my sons, thank God, I I I was raising my sons, thank God, I I I was raising my sons, thank God, I I had grown up in an alcoholic home, so I had grown up in an alcoholic home, so I had grown up in an alcoholic home, so I had a lot of childhood trauma to work had a lot of childhood trauma to work had a lot of childhood trauma to work through. Fortunately, I had worked through. Fortunately, I had worked through. Fortunately, I had worked through a good deal of it, not all of through a good deal of it, not all of through a good deal of it, not all of it, by the time I was a father. And so, it, by the time I was a father. And so, it, by the time I was a father. And so, I could be intentional with my I could be intentional with my I could be intentional with my sons in in the stage of formation into sons in in the stage of formation into sons in in the stage of formation into manhood. But so many young guys do not manhood. But so many young guys do not manhood. But so many young guys do not have this. And so I think Peterson's a have this. And so I think Peterson's a have this. And so I think Peterson's a beautiful expression of here is a father beautiful expression of here is a father beautiful expression of here is a father figure saying, "Hey, quit being Peter figure saying, "Hey, quit being Peter figure saying, "Hey, quit being Peter Pan, you know, and trying to grow up, Pan, you know, and trying to grow up, Pan, you know, and trying to grow up, fellas." And guys are gravitating fellas." And guys are gravitating fellas." And guys are gravitating towards it. Carrie, do you know that towards it. Carrie, do you know that towards it. Carrie, do you know that the fastest growing population segment the fastest growing population segment the fastest growing population segment in the Eastern Orthodox Church is young in the Eastern Orthodox Church is young in the Eastern Orthodox Church is young men? Did not know that. Nope. Single men? Did not know that. Nope. Single men? Did not know that. Nope. Single young single men. And you're like, young single men. And you're like, young single men. And you're like, "What? Have you been to a Easter "What? Have you been to a Easter "What? Have you been to a Easter Orthodox service lately? There's no Orthodox service lately? There's no Orthodox service lately? There's no chairs. You chairs. You chairs. You stand for 3 hours." Wow. There is a stand for 3 hours." Wow. There is a stand for 3 hours." Wow. There is a rigor to it that the Orthodox Church is

rigor to it that the Orthodox Church is rigor to it that the Orthodox Church is unabashed about. They're like, "Oh, yes. unabashed about. They're like, "Oh, yes. unabashed about. They're like, "Oh, yes. Disciplehip to Christ is rigorous. Get Disciplehip to Christ is rigorous. Get Disciplehip to Christ is rigorous. Get over yourself." And so, here you have over yourself." And so, here you have over yourself." And so, here you have the Jordan Peterson phenomenon of young the Jordan Peterson phenomenon of young the Jordan Peterson phenomenon of young men gravitating towards it, saying, "I men gravitating towards it, saying, "I men gravitating towards it, saying, "I need this. I didn't get this. I I feel need this. I didn't get this. I I feel need this. I didn't get this. I I feel soft inside. I I need the rig. I need soft inside. I I need the rig. I need soft inside. I I need the rig. I need the rigors. Look at the wonderful the rigors. Look at the wonderful the rigors. Look at the wonderful success of John Mark Comr's disciplehip success of John Mark Comr's disciplehip success of John Mark Comr's disciplehip programs, right? Yeah. You have people programs, right? Yeah. You have people programs, right? Yeah. You have people saying, "I need rigor saying, "I need rigor saying, "I need rigor in my spiritual life. I feel very soft." in my spiritual life. I feel very soft." in my spiritual life. I feel very soft." Okay. So, we'll finish the finish the Okay. So, we'll finish the finish the Okay. So, we'll finish the finish the thing with King and Sage. So, King thing with King and Sage. So, King thing with King and Sage. So, King around 40 uh he gets a title. He he gets around 40 uh he gets a title. He he gets around 40 uh he gets a title. He he gets he gets a company. He becomes a he gets a company. He becomes a he gets a company. He becomes a professor. He, you know, is a teacher in professor. He, you know, is a teacher in professor. He, you know, is a teacher in a class. He he has a kingdom over which a class. He he has a kingdom over which a class. He he has a kingdom over which he now has authority. Becomes a lead he now has authority. Becomes a lead he now has authority. Becomes a lead pastor, becomes the director, etc., etc. pastor, becomes the director, etc., etc. pastor, becomes the director, etc., etc. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And here's the Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And here's the Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And here's the problem. The king stage is a beautiful problem. The king stage is a beautiful problem. The king stage is a beautiful stage. stage. stage. But David, it says when David was made But David, it says when David was made But David, it says when David was made king, the scripture literally says he king, the scripture literally says he king, the scripture literally says he knew that God had done this for the sake knew that God had done this for the sake knew that God had done this for the sake of his people.

of his people. of his people. It's the cure to the narcissist, right? It's the cure to the narcissist, right? It's the cure to the narcissist, right? Like, David, this actually isn't about Like, David, this actually isn't about Like, David, this actually isn't about you. You're being given this position on you. You're being given this position on you. You're being given this position on behalf of others, right? So, wield it behalf of others, right? So, wield it behalf of others, right? So, wield it well. Use it on behalf of others, not to well. Use it on behalf of others, not to well. Use it on behalf of others, not to just feed your ego, build your own just feed your ego, build your own just feed your ego, build your own little kingdom, make a name for little kingdom, make a name for little kingdom, make a name for yourself, right? Stage of the king is a yourself, right? Stage of the king is a yourself, right? Stage of the king is a stage of enormous stage of enormous stage of enormous sacrifice. And then you get to where you sacrifice. And then you get to where you sacrifice. And then you get to where you are. And happy birthday in a few are. And happy birthday in a few are. And happy birthday in a few Thank you. Yeah. Uh around the stage of Thank you. Yeah. Uh around the stage of Thank you. Yeah. Uh around the stage of 60. So 40 to 60 is the king. Around the 60. So 40 to 60 is the king. Around the 60. So 40 to 60 is the king. Around the stage of 60 into the fourth quarter of stage of 60 into the fourth quarter of stage of 60 into the fourth quarter of life, we become life, we become life, we become sages. And the stage of the sage is very sages. And the stage of the sage is very sages. And the stage of the sage is very very very very difficult because a lot of the external difficult because a lot of the external difficult because a lot of the external supports begin to diminish. You're not supports begin to diminish. You're not supports begin to diminish. You're not the lead pastor anymore, right? Uh the lead pastor anymore, right? Uh the lead pastor anymore, right? Uh you're not the CEO. you're not the CEO. you're not the CEO. you're a consultant now, you're a consultant now, you're a consultant now, you know, and the kids are gone and you you know, and the kids are gone and you you know, and the kids are gone and you and the misses maybe move into a smaller and the misses maybe move into a smaller and the misses maybe move into a smaller place because you're on a you're on a place because you're on a you're on a place because you're on a you're on a fixed income now, you know. Um, fixed income now, you know. Um, fixed income now, you know. Um, retirement is just deadly for spiritual retirement is just deadly for spiritual retirement is just deadly for spiritual fathers and mothers because the stage of fathers and mothers because the stage of fathers and mothers because the stage of the sage for centuries these were the the sage for centuries these were the the sage for centuries these were the most esteemed people in the village.

most esteemed people in the village. most esteemed people in the village. that these are the people that were that these are the people that were that these are the people that were treated with the most amount of honor treated with the most amount of honor treated with the most amount of honor and when they needed to settle disputes and when they needed to settle disputes and when they needed to settle disputes you went to these folks. You went to the you went to these folks. You went to the you went to these folks. You went to the elders. Yeah. Yeah. And so the stage of elders. Yeah. Yeah. And so the stage of elders. Yeah. Yeah. And so the stage of the sage can be very very beautiful and the sage can be very very beautiful and the sage can be very very beautiful and I I think there is a revolution going on I I think there is a revolution going on I I think there is a revolution going on right now. So to give you hope for your right now. So to give you hope for your right now. So to give you hope for your next your next uh next your next uh next your next uh stage. I mean Carrie, everything you've stage. I mean Carrie, everything you've stage. I mean Carrie, everything you've learned, everything you've mentored learned, everything you've mentored learned, everything you've mentored people through. Um but you're at the people through. Um but you're at the people through. Um but you're at the stage that you don't have to prove stage that you don't have to prove stage that you don't have to prove anything anymore. Yeah. I care less. I anything anymore. Yeah. I care less. I anything anymore. Yeah. I care less. I didn't care a lot 10 years ago. I care didn't care a lot 10 years ago. I care didn't care a lot 10 years ago. I care even less. There you go. Today about the even less. There you go. Today about the even less. There you go. Today about the status, the affiliation. If I had a status, the affiliation. If I had a status, the affiliation. If I had a panic, I've been quite excited about panic, I've been quite excited about panic, I've been quite excited about this next decade. My 50s have been my this next decade. My 50s have been my this next decade. My 50s have been my favorites so far. My kids don't like me favorites so far. My kids don't like me favorites so far. My kids don't like me saying that because they're like, "Wait, saying that because they're like, "Wait, saying that because they're like, "Wait, we left home." I'm like, "No, not cause we left home." I'm like, "No, not cause we left home." I'm like, "No, not cause and effect." Okay, not cause and effect, and effect." Okay, not cause and effect, and effect." Okay, not cause and effect, boys. That's not it. I adore my grown boys. That's not it. I adore my grown boys. That's not it. I adore my grown sons. We have a great relationship. But, sons. We have a great relationship. But, sons. We have a great relationship. But, you know, if I had a moment of panic, it you know, if I had a moment of panic, it you know, if I had a moment of panic, it was this idea that everything that God was this idea that everything that God was this idea that everything that God had built up in my 50s, which was way had built up in my 50s, which was way had built up in my 50s, which was way beyond what I expected. You know, this beyond what I expected. You know, this beyond what I expected. You know, this was an experiment. I didn't expect tens was an experiment. I didn't expect tens was an experiment. I didn't expect tens of millions of downloads and, you know, of millions of downloads and, you know, of millions of downloads and, you know, doing what I'm doing now. I had no idea.

doing what I'm doing now. I had no idea. doing what I'm doing now. I had no idea. Um, and I thought now I got to maintain Um, and I thought now I got to maintain Um, and I thought now I got to maintain that in my 60s. And then it hit me, no I that in my 60s. And then it hit me, no I that in my 60s. And then it hit me, no I don't. I don't need to preserve. I can don't. I don't need to preserve. I can don't. I don't need to preserve. I can reinvent. I can re-imagine. I can reinvent. I can re-imagine. I can reinvent. I can re-imagine. I can embrace a new role. And there's a embrace a new role. And there's a embrace a new role. And there's a tremendous freedom in that. Like there's tremendous freedom in that. Like there's tremendous freedom in that. Like there's not a necessity not a necessity not a necessity to repeat what you did in your 30s or to repeat what you did in your 30s or to repeat what you did in your 30s or 40s or 50s. There's a freedom there to 40s or 50s. There's a freedom there to 40s or 50s. There's a freedom there to pursue a different iteration of your pursue a different iteration of your pursue a different iteration of your calling. Now, I have no intention of calling. Now, I have no intention of calling. Now, I have no intention of stopping what I'm doing, but if you feel stopping what I'm doing, but if you feel stopping what I'm doing, but if you feel like, oh, my best days are behind me and like, oh, my best days are behind me and like, oh, my best days are behind me and I have to build on what I've already I have to build on what I've already I have to build on what I've already built. That's a lot of self-imposed built. That's a lot of self-imposed built. That's a lot of self-imposed pressure that isn't real. Yes, that's pressure that isn't real. Yes, that's pressure that isn't real. Yes, that's right. Is that Tell me, break that down, right. Is that Tell me, break that down, right. Is that Tell me, break that down, counselor. What am I What am I missing? counselor. What am I What am I missing? counselor. What am I What am I missing? That's right. Because instead of That's right. Because instead of That's right. Because instead of bringing the new shiny bringing the new shiny bringing the new shiny thing, what you bring now is wisdom and thing, what you bring now is wisdom and thing, what you bring now is wisdom and experience and stories to tell. A lot of experience and stories to tell. A lot of experience and stories to tell. A lot of those stories based on our mistakes.

those stories based on our mistakes. those stories based on our mistakes. Yes. That right. I'm the cheat code. You Yes. That right. I'm the cheat code. You Yes. That right. I'm the cheat code. You could rename my company cheat code as could rename my company cheat code as could rename my company cheat code as like this is how I blew it in my 20s, like this is how I blew it in my 20s, like this is how I blew it in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and here's the cheat code 30s, 40s, 50s, and here's the cheat code 30s, 40s, 50s, and here's the cheat code if you want to save yourself some if you want to save yourself some if you want to save yourself some anguish and maybe a marriage. Um, yes, anguish and maybe a marriage. Um, yes, anguish and maybe a marriage. Um, yes, it'll help. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. it'll help. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. it'll help. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's a the stage stage is just So, it's a the stage stage is just So, it's a the stage stage is just absolutely beautiful. And Stacy and I absolutely beautiful. And Stacy and I absolutely beautiful. And Stacy and I are loving this because as I was are loving this because as I was are loving this because as I was describing with the Peterson, even the describing with the Peterson, even the describing with the Peterson, even the Joe Rogan thing um and I respect these Joe Rogan thing um and I respect these Joe Rogan thing um and I respect these guys, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not guys, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not guys, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not dissing them. I'm I'm saying they dissing them. I'm I'm saying they dissing them. I'm I'm saying they demonstrate the demonstrate the demonstrate the hunger for hunger for hunger for um fathering I think in particular for um fathering I think in particular for um fathering I think in particular for young men but but larger now we can just young men but but larger now we can just young men but but larger now we can just speak to the need for spiritual mothers speak to the need for spiritual mothers speak to the need for spiritual mothers and and and fathers at this stage of life. People fathers at this stage of life. People fathers at this stage of life. People need wisdom, counsel, guidance because need wisdom, counsel, guidance because need wisdom, counsel, guidance because for you know the last four decades in for you know the last four decades in for you know the last four decades in the church we have worshiped youth. we the church we have worshiped youth. we the church we have worshiped youth. we have worshiped. It's the young have worshiped. It's the young have worshiped. It's the young successful pastor, right, that that successful pastor, right, that that successful pastor, right, that that everybody's wowed by, you know, you go, everybody's wowed by, you know, you go, everybody's wowed by, you know, you go, "What? That guy should still be in the "What? That guy should still be in the "What? That guy should still be in the back seat, you know?" Yeah. I mean, I'm back seat, you know?" Yeah. I mean, I'm back seat, you know?" Yeah. I mean, I'm going to be honest, he should not be a going to be honest, he should not be a going to be honest, he should not be a king at 30. So, you think there it's king at 30. So, you think there it's king at 30. So, you think there it's sort of like the Constitution, you can't sort of like the Constitution, you can't sort of like the Constitution, you can't be president till you're 35, right? Oh, be president till you're 35, right? Oh, be president till you're 35, right? Oh, interesting. That's right. Yeah. for his interesting. That's right. Yeah. for his interesting. That's right. Yeah. for his own sake because he has not had the the own sake because he has not had the the own sake because he has not had the the stages of formation that will carry the

stages of formation that will carry the stages of formation that will carry the kind of weight. You remember the story kind of weight. You remember the story kind of weight. You remember the story Augustine wept when they made him bishop Augustine wept when they made him bishop Augustine wept when they made him bishop of Hippo. He wept because he knew this of Hippo. He wept because he knew this of Hippo. He wept because he knew this is the the role of the king is crushing. is the the role of the king is crushing. is the the role of the king is crushing. I got to ask this question on behalf of I got to ask this question on behalf of I got to ask this question on behalf of numerous 30-year-old lead pastors who numerous 30-year-old lead pastors who numerous 30-year-old lead pastors who are listening to this and just stopped are listening to this and just stopped are listening to this and just stopped dead in their tracks who honestly I dead in their tracks who honestly I dead in their tracks who honestly I admire. Some of them got there because admire. Some of them got there because admire. Some of them got there because of a moral failure. Some of them are of a moral failure. Some of them are of a moral failure. Some of them are church planters. I mean I've got names. church planters. I mean I've got names. church planters. I mean I've got names. I'm not going to name them but they know I'm not going to name them but they know I'm not going to name them but they know who they are. And they're in their early who they are. And they're in their early who they are. And they're in their early 30s, late 20s, mid30s and they're 30s, late 20s, mid30s and they're 30s, late 20s, mid30s and they're leading very significant fast growing leading very significant fast growing leading very significant fast growing ministries. Do they need to resign? Like ministries. Do they need to resign? Like ministries. Do they need to resign? Like what do they need to do? No, but they what do they need to do? No, but they what do they need to do? No, but they had better get a spiritual had better get a spiritual had better get a spiritual father father father tomorrow. They're going to need some tomorrow. They're going to need some tomorrow. They're going to need some elder, wise, loving counsel, somebody elder, wise, loving counsel, somebody elder, wise, loving counsel, somebody who's totally outside the church who's totally outside the church who's totally outside the church framework. It can't be anybody who has framework. It can't be anybody who has framework. It can't be anybody who has any investment in it. Right. Right. Not any investment in it. Right. Right. Not any investment in it. Right. Right. Not an elder, not a deacon. Literally not an elder, not a deacon. Literally not an elder, not a deacon. Literally not your elders.

your elders. your elders. No. Um because No. No. You don't need to No. Um because No. No. You don't need to No. Um because No. No. You don't need to resign. You need to recognize I was made resign. You need to recognize I was made resign. You need to recognize I was made a king a little too a king a little too a king a little too soon. You just need to name that. I was soon. You just need to name that. I was soon. You just need to name that. I was named I was I was made a king at 30. Uh named I was I was made a king at 30. Uh named I was I was made a king at 30. Uh it was a very small kingdom. You know, it was a very small kingdom. You know, it was a very small kingdom. You know, half a dozen people per church for three half a dozen people per church for three half a dozen people per church for three churches. Uh but it grew very rapidly. churches. Uh but it grew very rapidly. churches. Uh but it grew very rapidly. And that's probably the decade of my And that's probably the decade of my And that's probably the decade of my biggest regrets. I did not have the biggest regrets. I did not have the biggest regrets. I did not have the wisdom or the insight to know how to wisdom or the insight to know how to wisdom or the insight to know how to handle that personally or handle that personally or handle that personally or organizationally. And I didn't I didn't organizationally. And I didn't I didn't organizationally. And I didn't I didn't blow up my life to the point where I had blow up my life to the point where I had blow up my life to the point where I had to take, you know, a pass or resign. But to take, you know, a pass or resign. But to take, you know, a pass or resign. But it was a hard decade of it was exciting it was a hard decade of it was exciting it was a hard decade of it was exciting and it was a very hard decade in terms and it was a very hard decade in terms and it was a very hard decade in terms of marriage, parenting, relationships. I of marriage, parenting, relationships. I of marriage, parenting, relationships. I I didn't know how to build a team. And I didn't know how to build a team. And I didn't know how to build a team. And then, you know, I hit the wall at 40, 41 then, you know, I hit the wall at 40, 41 then, you know, I hit the wall at 40, 41 with burnout. And that's where the rest with burnout. And that's where the rest with burnout. And that's where the rest of my life, my life's on a hinge. It was of my life, my life's on a hinge. It was of my life, my life's on a hinge. It was pre-burnout, post burnout. And that's pre-burnout, post burnout. And that's pre-burnout, post burnout. And that's where, you know, God got my attention where, you know, God got my attention where, you know, God got my attention and things went way better after. And if and things went way better after. And if and things went way better after. And if you're on the outside, if you're in the you're on the outside, if you're in the you're on the outside, if you're in the back row, you're like, "Yeah, that's back row, you're like, "Yeah, that's back row, you're like, "Yeah, that's cool." You know, my 30s weren't a train cool." You know, my 30s weren't a train cool." You know, my 30s weren't a train wreck. But yeah, I those are those wreck. But yeah, I those are those wreck. But yeah, I those are those that's a decade that I would be like, that's a decade that I would be like, that's a decade that I would be like, "If I knew now then what I know now, "If I knew now then what I know now, "If I knew now then what I know now, things would have been different." There things would have been different." There things would have been different." There you go. Yeah. There you go. So the other you go. Yeah. There you go. So the other you go. Yeah. There you go. So the other thing I would say to these beautiful thing I would say to these beautiful thing I would say to these beautiful young leaders is um the pace of your young leaders is um the pace of your young leaders is um the pace of your life will will give you a

life will will give you a life will will give you a pass on doing the internal work. Don't pass on doing the internal work. Don't pass on doing the internal work. Don't ignore the internal work. ignore the internal work. ignore the internal work. It was in my 30s that I finally dealt It was in my 30s that I finally dealt It was in my 30s that I finally dealt with growing up in an alcoholic home. with growing up in an alcoholic home. with growing up in an alcoholic home. And the only reason it happened was cuz And the only reason it happened was cuz And the only reason it happened was cuz this rage was coming out of me at my own this rage was coming out of me at my own this rage was coming out of me at my own children. And I was like, whoa, I do not children. And I was like, whoa, I do not children. And I was like, whoa, I do not want to. I was not violent with them, want to. I was not violent with them, want to. I was not violent with them, but I did. You know, there was an anger but I did. You know, there was an anger but I did. You know, there was an anger and I had no idea, Carrie. I had no and I had no idea, Carrie. I had no and I had no idea, Carrie. I had no idea. Where is this coming from? Where idea. Where is this coming from? Where idea. Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from? Or what what it was is this coming from? Or what what it was is this coming from? Or what what it was really like because I was just a really like because I was just a really like because I was just a survivor. You know, you grew up in an survivor. You know, you grew up in an survivor. You know, you grew up in an alcoholic home. You're a survivor. You alcoholic home. You're a survivor. You alcoholic home. You're a survivor. You You just get on with things. So, young You just get on with things. So, young You just get on with things. So, young leaders, you can't neglect the internal leaders, you can't neglect the internal leaders, you can't neglect the internal work. work. work. Wow. and the pace of your world's going Wow. and the pace of your world's going Wow. and the pace of your world's going to give you a whole lot of reason to, to give you a whole lot of reason to, to give you a whole lot of reason to, you know, it's just the next thing, the you know, it's just the next thing, the you know, it's just the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and be next thing, the next thing, and be next thing, the next thing, and be amazing. But, um, you you all probably amazing. But, um, you you all probably amazing. But, um, you you all probably ought to have a therapist as well. Okay, ought to have a therapist as well. Okay, ought to have a therapist as well. Okay, good advice. So, that's the king stage.

good advice. So, that's the king stage. good advice. So, that's the king stage. Um, what other notes about the different Um, what other notes about the different Um, what other notes about the different stages just to paint the picture a stages just to paint the picture a stages just to paint the picture a little more clearly. So, sta stage is little more clearly. So, sta stage is little more clearly. So, sta stage is like 60s indefinitely. Yeah. Yep. into like 60s indefinitely. Yeah. Yep. into like 60s indefinitely. Yeah. Yep. into the kingdom. Yeah. So, one of the things the kingdom. Yeah. So, one of the things the kingdom. Yeah. So, one of the things when I was younger, John, I thought all when I was younger, John, I thought all when I was younger, John, I thought all your life problems got worked out by the your life problems got worked out by the your life problems got worked out by the time you're 50. You know, if you had time you're 50. You know, if you had time you're 50. You know, if you had financial problems, they'd be fixed. If financial problems, they'd be fixed. If financial problems, they'd be fixed. If you had marriage problems, they'd be you had marriage problems, they'd be you had marriage problems, they'd be fixed. And of course, few years of fixed. And of course, few years of fixed. And of course, few years of ministry and a few years of life. And ministry and a few years of life. And ministry and a few years of life. And I'm realizing that is not true. This is I'm realizing that is not true. This is I'm realizing that is not true. This is not true. It's like compound interest. not true. It's like compound interest. not true. It's like compound interest. things get worse or things get better in things get worse or things get better in things get worse or things get better in proportion to the way you deal with your proportion to the way you deal with your proportion to the way you deal with your issues. So exactly if you are entering issues. So exactly if you are entering issues. So exactly if you are entering your king or your sage years and you your king or your sage years and you your king or your sage years and you haven't dealt with the beloved stage and haven't dealt with the beloved stage and haven't dealt with the beloved stage and the deficiencies that happened or uh you the deficiencies that happened or uh you the deficiencies that happened or uh you haven't processed your stuff, you haven't processed your stuff, you haven't processed your stuff, you haven't had a spiritual mother or father haven't had a spiritual mother or father haven't had a spiritual mother or father alongside you. What do the king and sage alongside you. What do the king and sage alongside you. What do the king and sage years look like if you haven't done the years look like if you haven't done the years look like if you haven't done the work up front?

work up front? work up front? Well, it's crushing because you won't Well, it's crushing because you won't Well, it's crushing because you won't get get get belovedness, right? You can't I mean, belovedness, right? You can't I mean, belovedness, right? You can't I mean, come on. You're going to please come on. You're going to please come on. You're going to please everybody in the everybody in the everybody in the church. You can't please 20% of them, church. You can't please 20% of them, church. You can't please 20% of them, you know? And so, it's going to be you know? And so, it's going to be you know? And so, it's going to be crushingly disappointing that you can't crushingly disappointing that you can't crushingly disappointing that you can't get that ache met from your external get that ache met from your external get that ache met from your external world or your company. Yeah. And is it world or your company. Yeah. And is it world or your company. Yeah. And is it because you've now had a couple of laps because you've now had a couple of laps because you've now had a couple of laps and they haven't delivered? It's like, and they haven't delivered? It's like, and they haven't delivered? It's like, well, this marriage didn't work out or well, this marriage didn't work out or well, this marriage didn't work out or uh this venture didn't work out and now uh this venture didn't work out and now uh this venture didn't work out and now you're in your 50s and you're and that's you're in your 50s and you're and that's you're in your 50s and you're and that's still not working out. The angst builds. still not working out. The angst builds. still not working out. The angst builds. Yes. That's right. That's right. And Yes. That's right. That's right. And Yes. That's right. That's right. And here's the beautiful thing. I do want to here's the beautiful thing. I do want to here's the beautiful thing. I do want to throw some more hope back into the car. throw some more hope back into the car. throw some more hope back into the car. Yeah. Yeah. No, but there's a lot of Yeah. Yeah. No, but there's a lot of Yeah. Yeah. No, but there's a lot of problems. problems. problems. The the beautiful thing is this is that The the beautiful thing is this is that The the beautiful thing is this is that your heavenly father and your lord Jesus your heavenly father and your lord Jesus your heavenly father and your lord Jesus know all this about know all this about know all this about you and they if you pause and simply ask you and they if you pause and simply ask you and they if you pause and simply ask so a regular prayer of mine is where are so a regular prayer of mine is where are so a regular prayer of mine is where are we working we working we working Lord now I'm a house under renovation Lord now I'm a house under renovation Lord now I'm a house under renovation he's not he's not tearing the whole he's not he's not tearing the whole he's not he's not tearing the whole thing apart he's like right now we're thing apart he's like right now we're thing apart he's like right now we're working in the upper left bedroom. Right working in the upper left bedroom. Right working in the upper left bedroom. Right now, we're working on your now, we're working on your now, we're working on your fear about the future. And so, let's go fear about the future. And so, let's go fear about the future. And so, let's go into your fears, John. Let's unpack that into your fears, John. Let's unpack that into your fears, John. Let's unpack that together. And he will address together. And he will address together. And he will address belovedness and he will address um the belovedness and he will address um the belovedness and he will address um the courage of the warrior. He he God will

courage of the warrior. He he God will courage of the warrior. He he God will father you until you are in his arms. father you until you are in his arms. father you until you are in his arms. Okay, that's the hopefulness. And so you Okay, that's the hopefulness. And so you Okay, that's the hopefulness. And so you just want to ask the question, okay, just want to ask the question, okay, just want to ask the question, okay, Lord, um, what are we working on? Lord, um, what are we working on? Lord, um, what are we working on? Wow. Wow. And that's an openness. What Wow. Wow. And that's an openness. What Wow. Wow. And that's an openness. What about the sage years if you don't deal about the sage years if you don't deal about the sage years if you don't deal with your stuff early? Well, look at how with your stuff early? Well, look at how with your stuff early? Well, look at how quickly, you know, so you know the uh quickly, you know, so you know the uh quickly, you know, so you know the uh the death rate um 50% of men die within the death rate um 50% of men die within the death rate um 50% of men die within two years of retiring. Wow. Did not know two years of retiring. Wow. Did not know two years of retiring. Wow. Did not know that particular stat. That's staggering. that particular stat. That's staggering. that particular stat. That's staggering. Well, the reason why is that their Well, the reason why is that their Well, the reason why is that their search for validation was still tied to search for validation was still tied to search for validation was still tied to the the the externals and it's all gone, right? Come externals and it's all gone, right? Come externals and it's all gone, right? Come on, man. You can't hold on to that on, man. You can't hold on to that on, man. You can't hold on to that forever, right? Okay. So, and again, God forever, right? Okay. So, and again, God forever, right? Okay. So, and again, God will come he will come to an 80-year-old will come he will come to an 80-year-old will come he will come to an 80-year-old man and tell him that he is his beloved man and tell him that he is his beloved man and tell him that he is his beloved son. I mean, he he will address this. son. I mean, he he will address this. son. I mean, he he will address this. But if you don't, that the the the But if you don't, that the the the But if you don't, that the the the poverty is your body can't keep up.

poverty is your body can't keep up. poverty is your body can't keep up. You just can't. And I you can try all You just can't. And I you can try all You just can't. And I you can try all the biohacking and all that. And I'm a the biohacking and all that. And I'm a the biohacking and all that. And I'm a big health and wellness big health and wellness big health and wellness guy. Uh but I Carrie, I can't run at the guy. Uh but I Carrie, I can't run at the guy. Uh but I Carrie, I can't run at the pace I used to. I used to be able to fly pace I used to. I used to be able to fly pace I used to. I used to be able to fly from city to city and conference to from city to city and conference to from city to city and conference to conference and do hotel rooms. I I can't conference and do hotel rooms. I I can't conference and do hotel rooms. I I can't do that do that do that anymore. Now, the fun thing is I don't anymore. Now, the fun thing is I don't anymore. Now, the fun thing is I don't care. care. care. That's right. I don't miss it. I say no That's right. I don't miss it. I say no That's right. I don't miss it. I say no to everything. Uh but I because there's to everything. Uh but I because there's to everything. Uh but I because there's an internal settledness and in this so an internal settledness and in this so an internal settledness and in this so now I want to now I want to now I want to intrigue I want to intrigue intrigue I want to intrigue intrigue I want to intrigue um my life with God is um my life with God is um my life with God is such that I so enjoy him. I don't need such that I so enjoy him. I don't need such that I so enjoy him. I don't need anything anything anything else and I don't have to write another else and I don't have to write another else and I don't have to write another book. I don't have to record another book. I don't have to record another book. I don't have to record another podcast. I don't need to make another podcast. I don't need to make another podcast. I don't need to make another dollar. I really dollar. I really dollar. I really don't because there's an internal your don't because there's an internal your don't because there's an internal your in okay so the stage of the sage is your in okay so the stage of the sage is your in okay so the stage of the sage is your internal world is larger than your internal world is larger than your internal world is larger than your external and that's why people will go why did and that's why people will go why did everybody go sit at the feet of Dallas everybody go sit at the feet of Dallas everybody go sit at the feet of Dallas Willard when he was 80 Willard when he was 80 Willard when he was 80 right because he was just right because he was just right because he was just overflowing with overflowing with overflowing with God he it was wisdom it was kindness he God he it was wisdom it was kindness he God he it was wisdom it was kindness he became I mean, he was a kind man when I became I mean, he was a kind man when I became I mean, he was a kind man when I knew him in his 50s. He just became

knew him in his 50s. He just became knew him in his 50s. He just became kinder and kinder and kinder. See, it's kinder and kinder and kinder. See, it's kinder and kinder and kinder. See, it's that internal life was so that internal life was so that internal life was so resilient. I have a theory, totally resilient. I have a theory, totally resilient. I have a theory, totally untested. I want to bounce it off of untested. I want to bounce it off of untested. I want to bounce it off of you, but you mentioned Dallas in his you, but you mentioned Dallas in his you, but you mentioned Dallas in his 50s, Dallas at 80 became kinder and 50s, Dallas at 80 became kinder and 50s, Dallas at 80 became kinder and kinder. I have a theory that age makes kinder. I have a theory that age makes kinder. I have a theory that age makes you more of who you already are, that you more of who you already are, that you more of who you already are, that your personality hardens. maybe you're a your personality hardens. maybe you're a your personality hardens. maybe you're a little bit supple in your 20s or 30s. little bit supple in your 20s or 30s. little bit supple in your 20s or 30s. Uh, and so when I've seen the unkind, Uh, and so when I've seen the unkind, Uh, and so when I've seen the unkind, the competitive part of me come out, I'm the competitive part of me come out, I'm the competitive part of me come out, I'm like, nail that now. Pray about it now like, nail that now. Pray about it now like, nail that now. Pray about it now because that could be you at 80 and you because that could be you at 80 and you because that could be you at 80 and you don't have control over that anymore. don't have control over that anymore. don't have control over that anymore. You're just, you know, it's like your You're just, you know, it's like your You're just, you know, it's like your arteries, they got hard or something arteries, they got hard or something arteries, they got hard or something like that and you're just this mean like that and you're just this mean like that and you're just this mean dude. Uh, do you agree with that or what dude. Uh, do you agree with that or what dude. Uh, do you agree with that or what have you seen, have you seen, have you seen, Carrie? This is why God kicked the human Carrie? This is why God kicked the human Carrie? This is why God kicked the human race out of the race out of the race out of the garden because he he literally says if garden because he he literally says if garden because he he literally says if they get a hold of the tree of eternal they get a hold of the tree of eternal they get a hold of the tree of eternal life in their current condition and they life in their current condition and they life in their current condition and they get to live out that hardness get to live out that hardness get to live out that hardness indefinitely. I mean it's a nightmare at indefinitely. I mean it's a nightmare at indefinitely. I mean it's a nightmare at 90. It would be a nightmare at 990 90. It would be a nightmare at 990 90. It would be a nightmare at 990 if it's compounding and you're just if it's compounding and you're just if it's compounding and you're just worse and worse and worse. Exactly. This worse and worse and worse. Exactly. This worse and worse and worse. Exactly. This is literally why he cut he cut us out of is literally why he cut he cut us out of is literally why he cut he cut us out of the garden because until the the garden because until the the garden because until the transformation could begin, you can't transformation could begin, you can't transformation could begin, you can't let people just go on in their sin and let people just go on in their sin and let people just go on in their sin and their brokenness. So, I listen to the their brokenness. So, I listen to the their brokenness. So, I listen to the podcast like everybody else on

podcast like everybody else on podcast like everybody else on biohacking and ultrahumanism and biohacking and ultrahumanism and biohacking and ultrahumanism and superhumanism and that kind of superhumanism and that kind of superhumanism and that kind of thing. Candidly, John, I'm not thing. Candidly, John, I'm not thing. Candidly, John, I'm not interested. It's like, give me my 80, 85 interested. It's like, give me my 80, 85 interested. It's like, give me my 80, 85 years. I'll go be with Jesus. I'm pretty years. I'll go be with Jesus. I'm pretty years. I'll go be with Jesus. I'm pretty happy. I'm I'm interested in my health happy. I'm I'm interested in my health happy. I'm I'm interested in my health span. Like I'd rather be an agile 72y span. Like I'd rather be an agile 72y span. Like I'd rather be an agile 72y old than a paralyzed 72y old or you know old than a paralyzed 72y old or you know old than a paralyzed 72y old or you know because I didn't take care of myself. because I didn't take care of myself. because I didn't take care of myself. I'd rather have mobility than no I'd rather have mobility than no I'd rather have mobility than no mobility but like this desire to live mobility but like this desire to live mobility but like this desire to live forever. I'm not interested remotely forever. I'm not interested remotely forever. I'm not interested remotely because I think Jesus covered that. I'm because I think Jesus covered that. I'm because I think Jesus covered that. I'm pro probably going to be okay in pro probably going to be okay in pro probably going to be okay in eternity. What are your thoughts on the eternity. What are your thoughts on the eternity. What are your thoughts on the whole quest? Why are people doing this? whole quest? Why are people doing this? whole quest? Why are people doing this? What are your thoughts? Well, What are your thoughts? Well, What are your thoughts? Well, um, we know that we are immortal um, we know that we are immortal um, we know that we are immortal beings and until you know the beings and until you know the beings and until you know the source, you're going to search for source, you're going to search for source, you're going to search for immortality. You know, I drive down the immortality. You know, I drive down the immortality. You know, I drive down the streets and you see the, you know, this streets and you see the, you know, this streets and you see the, you know, this is the Jud B. Judson Memorial Highway is the Jud B. Judson Memorial Highway is the Jud B. Judson Memorial Highway and that kind of thing. And I'm like, and that kind of thing. And I'm like, and that kind of thing. And I'm like, y'all understand he doesn't care y'all understand he doesn't care y'all understand he doesn't care anymore. And nobody here knows who that anymore. And nobody here knows who that anymore. And nobody here knows who that person was. And I don't know who this person was. And I don't know who this person was. And I don't know who this Joker is, so it doesn't matter to me Joker is, so it doesn't matter to me Joker is, so it doesn't matter to me either. But it's this desperate search either. But it's this desperate search either. But it's this desperate search for for for immortality that apart from the kingdom immortality that apart from the kingdom immortality that apart from the kingdom of God. Yeah. The biohacking thing and of God. Yeah. The biohacking thing and of God. Yeah. The biohacking thing and yeah this the sensory deprivation tanks yeah this the sensory deprivation tanks yeah this the sensory deprivation tanks and all that you know it's like well my and all that you know it's like well my and all that you know it's like well my theory is that billionaires have theory is that billionaires have theory is that billionaires have conquered everything. You know when you

conquered everything. You know when you conquered everything. You know when you have a hundred billion dollars or 70 have a hundred billion dollars or 70 have a hundred billion dollars or 70 billion billion billion you can buy anything you want from you can buy anything you want from you can buy anything you want from multiple lifetimes. You've conquered the multiple lifetimes. You've conquered the multiple lifetimes. You've conquered the summit and then the only thing left is summit and then the only thing left is summit and then the only thing left is space or immortality, right? Your space or immortality, right? Your space or immortality, right? Your health. Exactly. Your health. So now I'm health. Exactly. Your health. So now I'm health. Exactly. Your health. So now I'm going to be And I see these guys, you going to be And I see these guys, you going to be And I see these guys, you know, I'm 46, but I have a biological know, I'm 46, but I have a biological know, I'm 46, but I have a biological age of 26. I look at the dude, I'm like, age of 26. I look at the dude, I'm like, age of 26. I look at the dude, I'm like, "No, you look 46. I'm just going to call "No, you look 46. I'm just going to call "No, you look 46. I'm just going to call it." You know, but I don't know, man. it." You know, but I don't know, man. it." You know, but I don't know, man. Like I I just I think it's it's Genesis Like I I just I think it's it's Genesis Like I I just I think it's it's Genesis 11, the Tower of Babel all over again, 11, the Tower of Babel all over again, 11, the Tower of Babel all over again, right? We're just building our way up. right? We're just building our way up. right? We're just building our way up. Right. One question that I've had um Right. One question that I've had um Right. One question that I've had um with my counselor and with friends in with my counselor and with friends in with my counselor and with friends in their 50s is who are very ambitious their 50s is who are very ambitious their 50s is who are very ambitious still, but I think appropriately still, but I think appropriately still, but I think appropriately ambitious. And you hinted at that ambitious. And you hinted at that ambitious. And you hinted at that already in your own travel schedule. already in your own travel schedule. already in your own travel schedule. Your energy changes from decade to Your energy changes from decade to Your energy changes from decade to decade. I would say I've got a lot of decade. I would say I've got a lot of decade. I would say I've got a lot of strength for somebody my age and stage.

strength for somebody my age and stage. strength for somebody my age and stage. My stamina sometimes frustrates my team. My stamina sometimes frustrates my team. My stamina sometimes frustrates my team. It's like you shouldn't be on the road. It's like you shouldn't be on the road. It's like you shouldn't be on the road. I'm like I'm fine. Yeah, for the most I'm like I'm fine. Yeah, for the most I'm like I'm fine. Yeah, for the most part I am. Um but I find that my energy part I am. Um but I find that my energy part I am. Um but I find that my energy and my motivations have shifted. what and my motivations have shifted. what and my motivations have shifted. what what should you what should you what should you note, you know, for every decade, your note, you know, for every decade, your note, you know, for every decade, your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond in 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond in 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond in terms of cuz and I guess what's terms of cuz and I guess what's terms of cuz and I guess what's underneath the question is, and you've underneath the question is, and you've underneath the question is, and you've hinted at this already, if you're trying hinted at this already, if you're trying hinted at this already, if you're trying to build your kingdom in your 50s with to build your kingdom in your 50s with to build your kingdom in your 50s with the same energy you had as though you the same energy you had as though you the same energy you had as though you were in your 30s, you're going to burn were in your 30s, you're going to burn were in your 30s, you're going to burn yourself out in a lot of people around yourself out in a lot of people around yourself out in a lot of people around you. You're going to frustrate yourself you. You're going to frustrate yourself you. You're going to frustrate yourself and probably be not successful. Do you and probably be not successful. Do you and probably be not successful. Do you want to talk about energy in different want to talk about energy in different want to talk about energy in different decades and seasons? Sure. And what you decades and seasons? Sure. And what you decades and seasons? Sure. And what you use it for, right? For yourself for self use it for, right? For yourself for self use it for, right? For yourself for self a grand a grandisement is. Yeah. Really? a grand a grandisement is. Yeah. Really? a grand a grandisement is. Yeah. Really? Well, okay. So, we can go with the 20s Well, okay. So, we can go with the 20s Well, okay. So, we can go with the 20s right now because God bless them. They right now because God bless them. They right now because God bless them. They got so much got so much got so much energy. The problem is most of them energy. The problem is most of them energy. The problem is most of them spend it on spend it on spend it on happiness. They're ultimate skiers.

happiness. They're ultimate skiers. happiness. They're ultimate skiers. they're, you know, triathletes or they're, you know, triathletes or they're, you know, triathletes or whatever. You know, they love travel. Uh whatever. You know, they love travel. Uh whatever. You know, they love travel. Uh the energy is not going the energy is not going the energy is not going into the the development of their soul. into the the development of their soul. into the the development of their soul. They're not becoming the kind of people They're not becoming the kind of people They're not becoming the kind of people that can be entrusted with a that can be entrusted with a that can be entrusted with a kingdom. Right? We're trying to prolong kingdom. Right? We're trying to prolong kingdom. Right? We're trying to prolong adolescence. If you want any more proof adolescence. If you want any more proof adolescence. If you want any more proof of of of this, look at the people that we choose this, look at the people that we choose this, look at the people that we choose to be worship leaders. to be worship leaders. to be worship leaders. They are young and They are young and They are young and beautiful. They're young. Come on. You beautiful. They're young. Come on. You beautiful. They're young. Come on. You don't see anybody there with gray hair. don't see anybody there with gray hair. don't see anybody there with gray hair. Maybe the bass player because they Maybe the bass player because they Maybe the bass player because they couldn't find a bass player. Yeah. Yeah. couldn't find a bass player. Yeah. Yeah. couldn't find a bass player. Yeah. Yeah. Or or if you're back in the, you know, Or or if you're back in the, you know, Or or if you're back in the, you know, the woods and you've got a piano and the woods and you've got a piano and the woods and you've got a piano and it's old Mrs. McGrath and she's still it's old Mrs. McGrath and she's still it's old Mrs. McGrath and she's still banging away, you know. Yeah. We choose banging away, you know. Yeah. We choose banging away, you know. Yeah. We choose the young and beautiful. It's it's the the young and beautiful. It's it's the the young and beautiful. It's it's the worst message in the world. Not that worst message in the world. Not that worst message in the world. Not that they don't have a place. They have a they don't have a place. They have a they don't have a place. They have a place. You absolutely have a place. But place. You absolutely have a place. But place. You absolutely have a place. But again, what is your energy going into?

again, what is your energy going into? again, what is your energy going into? Um, in the 20s, uh, your energy should Um, in the 20s, uh, your energy should Um, in the 20s, uh, your energy should primarily be going primarily be going primarily be going into education and training for your into education and training for your into education and training for your calling. And so, if you don't know your calling. And so, if you don't know your calling. And so, if you don't know your calling, you're really chasing it. calling, you're really chasing it. calling, you're really chasing it. You're going, "Well, I tried teaching You're going, "Well, I tried teaching You're going, "Well, I tried teaching and now I I'm I'm in development. I and now I I'm I'm in development. I and now I I'm I'm in development. I really like development work." And I really like development work." And I really like development work." And I kind You got to You got to find out who kind You got to You got to find out who kind You got to You got to find out who you are and what you're wired for. you are and what you're wired for. you are and what you're wired for. You don't want to be asking those You don't want to be asking those You don't want to be asking those questions when you're 45. Yeah. Right. questions when you're 45. Yeah. Right. questions when you're 45. Yeah. Right. In the midlife crisis where you go, In the midlife crisis where you go, In the midlife crisis where you go, well, I became a dentist because my dad well, I became a dentist because my dad well, I became a dentist because my dad was a dentist and now I hate my life. was a dentist and now I hate my life. was a dentist and now I hate my life. You know, You know, You know, okay, 30s. What's your energy going okay, 30s. What's your energy going okay, 30s. What's your energy going into? Two things. It it the 30s is a into? Two things. It it the 30s is a into? Two things. It it the 30s is a really rough decade. Um because you are really rough decade. Um because you are really rough decade. Um because you are you're raising a family. You're starting you're raising a family. You're starting you're raising a family. You're starting your family. You've got young kids. your family. You've got young kids. your family. You've got young kids. That's exhausting. It is exhausting. That's exhausting. It is exhausting. That's exhausting. It is exhausting. It's exhausting and you're trying to It's exhausting and you're trying to It's exhausting and you're trying to build a career. So your your energy is build a career. So your your energy is build a career. So your your energy is it's very clear where it's going. it's very clear where it's going. it's very clear where it's going. However, like I said to the young However, like I said to the young However, like I said to the young leaders, don't neglect the inner work.

leaders, don't neglect the inner work. leaders, don't neglect the inner work. Some of that energy has to be where is Some of that energy has to be where is Some of that energy has to be where is your anxiety coming from? Where's your your anxiety coming from? Where's your your anxiety coming from? Where's your impatience coming from? Why do you keep impatience coming from? Why do you keep impatience coming from? Why do you keep looking at your personal assistant? You looking at your personal assistant? You looking at your personal assistant? You know, if you don't deal with those know, if you don't deal with those know, if you don't deal with those issues in your 30, they will blow up issues in your 30, they will blow up issues in your 30, they will blow up your kingdom when you're a king. your kingdom when you're a king. your kingdom when you're a king. The fascinating thing about the king The fascinating thing about the king The fascinating thing about the king stage, the energy in the stage, the energy in the stage, the energy in the 40s, what you're going to want to do, it 40s, what you're going to want to do, it 40s, what you're going to want to do, it feels so wonderful to be successful. feels so wonderful to be successful. feels so wonderful to be successful. Yes. that if you get any level of Yes. that if you get any level of Yes. that if you get any level of success, and I'm not talking about New success, and I'm not talking about New success, and I'm not talking about New York Times bestseller, if you just if York Times bestseller, if you just if York Times bestseller, if you just if your company is working and you're your company is working and you're your company is working and you're making a little bit of money, you know, making a little bit of money, you know, making a little bit of money, you know, I if you can travel now, you can buy a a I if you can travel now, you can buy a a I if you can travel now, you can buy a a few nice things, you can take your wife few nice things, you can take your wife few nice things, you can take your wife out to dinner, you can begin to think out to dinner, you can begin to think out to dinner, you can begin to think your energy is about success as a king, your energy is about success as a king, your energy is about success as a king, but it's not. but it's not. but it's not. that the king and this is really that the king and this is really that the king and this is really beautiful. You can bring this to any beautiful. You can bring this to any beautiful. You can bring this to any church and any corporation. Um what is church and any corporation. Um what is church and any corporation. Um what is it like for the people that live under it like for the people that live under it like for the people that live under this king?

this king? this king? We just it's an instant test. You shall We just it's an instant test. You shall We just it's an instant test. You shall know them by their fruit know them by their fruit know them by their fruit because you you want people to say because you you want people to say because you you want people to say people flourish under this king. people flourish under this king. people flourish under this king. Man or woman people flourish under this Man or woman people flourish under this Man or woman people flourish under this king. king. king. uh their children are flourishing, their uh their children are flourishing, their uh their children are flourishing, their wife is flourishing. Okay? So he's not wife is flourishing. Okay? So he's not wife is flourishing. Okay? So he's not sacrificing a marriage on the altar of sacrificing a marriage on the altar of sacrificing a marriage on the altar of his business. Um if he has a his business. Um if he has a his business. Um if he has a congregation, his congregation is or his congregation, his congregation is or his congregation, his congregation is or his creative team or the people who who are creative team or the people who who are creative team or the people who who are around him are flourishing. Well, that's around him are flourishing. Well, that's around him are flourishing. Well, that's because his energy is going into their because his energy is going into their because his energy is going into their flourishing. Yeah. flourishing. Yeah. flourishing. Yeah. And that's really counterintuitive to, And that's really counterintuitive to, And that's really counterintuitive to, you know, the narcissistic king, right? you know, the narcissistic king, right? you know, the narcissistic king, right? That's a really good thing because, you That's a really good thing because, you That's a really good thing because, you know, when you talked about the 20s and know, when you talked about the 20s and know, when you talked about the 20s and 30s, a lot of that can be selffocused. 30s, a lot of that can be selffocused. 30s, a lot of that can be selffocused. Like, you know, as I was in my 20s, if Like, you know, as I was in my 20s, if Like, you know, as I was in my 20s, if you got one annual vacation that wasn't you got one annual vacation that wasn't you got one annual vacation that wasn't camping, you were living a luxurious camping, you were living a luxurious camping, you were living a luxurious lifestyle. Yep. And now it seems to be, lifestyle. Yep. And now it seems to be, lifestyle. Yep. And now it seems to be, well, there's the trip to Italy and the well, there's the trip to Italy and the well, there's the trip to Italy and the trip to, you know, Colorado and then trip to, you know, Colorado and then trip to, you know, Colorado and then we're going to go and hang out in we're going to go and hang out in we're going to go and hang out in Thailand for a little while because Thailand for a little while because Thailand for a little while because White Lotus is there right now. And I'm White Lotus is there right now. And I'm White Lotus is there right now. And I'm like, that was a life that maybe you got like, that was a life that maybe you got like, that was a life that maybe you got in your 50s when I was younger, but and in your 50s when I was younger, but and in your 50s when I was younger, but and you know, this definitely pegs my you know, this definitely pegs my you know, this definitely pegs my generation, but a lot of it is generation, but a lot of it is generation, but a lot of it is self-focused. A lot of it and even in self-focused. A lot of it and even in self-focused. A lot of it and even in church leadership, it's self-focused.

church leadership, it's self-focused. church leadership, it's self-focused. It's this is about me and what I'm It's this is about me and what I'm It's this is about me and what I'm getting out of the system. And I think getting out of the system. And I think getting out of the system. And I think that operates. Nobody would say that out that operates. Nobody would say that out that operates. Nobody would say that out loud. But if you really look at the loud. But if you really look at the loud. But if you really look at the motivations, it's self focused, not motivations, it's self focused, not motivations, it's self focused, not yeah, God focused, other focus. But I yeah, God focused, other focus. But I yeah, God focused, other focus. But I love that. What's it like for the people love that. What's it like for the people love that. What's it like for the people who live under this king? Your energy who live under this king? Your energy who live under this king? Your energy should be going into their flourishing. should be going into their flourishing. should be going into their flourishing. So young leaders listening in their 20s So young leaders listening in their 20s So young leaders listening in their 20s and 30s, how do they make sure that and 30s, how do they make sure that and 30s, how do they make sure that their energy is going into the their energy is going into the their energy is going into the flourishing of others and in the right flourishing of others and in the right flourishing of others and in the right direction, not just to their next direction, not just to their next direction, not just to their next Instagram worthy, Tik Tok worthy moment? Instagram worthy, Tik Tok worthy moment? Instagram worthy, Tik Tok worthy moment? You you better have a You you better have a You you better have a team. You better have a team. You better team. You better have a team. You better team. You better have a team. You better share the pulpit or, you know, share share the pulpit or, you know, share share the pulpit or, you know, share leadership or whatever your particular leadership or whatever your particular leadership or whatever your particular role. If you're a worship leader, you're role. If you're a worship leader, you're role. If you're a worship leader, you're not the only one that's up there every not the only one that's up there every not the only one that's up there every week. Cuz then it's about you. Uh a week. Cuz then it's about you. Uh a week. Cuz then it's about you. Uh a really good test of any pastor or priest really good test of any pastor or priest really good test of any pastor or priest is, do they share the pulpit on a is, do they share the pulpit on a is, do they share the pulpit on a regular basis? I don't mean just for regular basis? I don't mean just for regular basis? I don't mean just for their vacation. Right. Right. or that their vacation. Right. Right. or that their vacation. Right. Right. or that dead Sunday after Memorial Day or dead Sunday after Memorial Day or dead Sunday after Memorial Day or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good that's a good test. But when you're good that's a good test. But when you're good that's a good test. But when you're young and you're building something, young and you're building something, young and you're building something, you're building a church, man, those are you're building a church, man, those are you're building a church, man, those are exhausting years. I would just hope it exhausting years. I would just hope it exhausting years. I would just hope it wouldn't all be on your on your own wouldn't all be on your on your own wouldn't all be on your on your own shoulders. I hope you got some pals who shoulders. I hope you got some pals who shoulders. I hope you got some pals who are helping to carry the weight.

are helping to carry the weight. are helping to carry the weight. Okay. 50s. So, you're a king. Yeah. as Okay. 50s. So, you're a king. Yeah. as Okay. 50s. So, you're a king. Yeah. as as you move into your 50s, they say it's as you move into your 50s, they say it's as you move into your 50s, they say it's often peak earning years for people in often peak earning years for people in often peak earning years for people in their 50s and then it starts to decline their 50s and then it starts to decline their 50s and then it starts to decline a little bit in your 60s, unless you're a little bit in your 60s, unless you're a little bit in your 60s, unless you're exceptionally fortunate. What else exceptionally fortunate. What else exceptionally fortunate. What else should There's a lot of lead pastors. should There's a lot of lead pastors. should There's a lot of lead pastors. The average lead pastor in America today The average lead pastor in America today The average lead pastor in America today is in his or her 50s. What do they need is in his or her 50s. What do they need is in his or her 50s. What do they need to know? You are planning for your to know? You are planning for your to know? You are planning for your succession. Yeah. Now, what about the succession. Yeah. Now, what about the succession. Yeah. Now, what about the pastor who says, "I I got 20 more years pastor who says, "I I got 20 more years pastor who says, "I I got 20 more years than me, 25 years in me." you are than me, 25 years in me." you are than me, 25 years in me." you are planning for your succession because as planning for your succession because as planning for your succession because as you as you step into the stage you as you step into the stage you as you step into the stage stage stage stage stage, you don't want to be living the stage, you don't want to be living the stage, you don't want to be living the same life you were living at same life you were living at same life you were living at 52. If you're if you're 62 and you still 52. If you're if you're 62 and you still 52. If you're if you're 62 and you still look like same travel schedule, look like same travel schedule, look like same travel schedule, preaching schedule, all that kind of preaching schedule, all that kind of preaching schedule, all that kind of thing, you you haven't grown and you thing, you you haven't grown and you thing, you you haven't grown and you haven't grown your team and you also haven't grown your team and you also haven't grown your team and you also haven't begun building your haven't begun building your haven't begun building your replacement, right? So I started handing replacement, right? So I started handing replacement, right? So I started handing over significant portions of the over significant portions of the over significant portions of the leadership of our organization to the leadership of our organization to the leadership of our organization to the upand cominging kings. You got these you upand cominging kings. You got these you upand cominging kings. You got these you got these guys who are 43. They're full got these guys who are 43. They're full got these guys who are 43. They're full of energy. They're finally, you know, of energy. They're finally, you know, of energy. They're finally, you know, they're skilled. They got vision. Use they're skilled. They got vision. Use they're skilled. They got vision. Use them, man. What are you thinking? Like them, man. What are you thinking? Like them, man. What are you thinking? Like share the joy. And and what I mean is share the joy. And and what I mean is share the joy. And and what I mean is you you begin to lessen your hold on the you you begin to lessen your hold on the you you begin to lessen your hold on the steering wheel. you really because if steering wheel. you really because if steering wheel. you really because if you don't plan for that, you're going to you don't plan for that, you're going to you don't plan for that, you're going to be the guy who retires and dies because

be the guy who retires and dies because be the guy who retires and dies because you got you've got no vision for your you got you've got no vision for your you got you've got no vision for your future, future, future, right? So 50 sage stage, let's get into right? So 50 sage stage, let's get into right? So 50 sage stage, let's get into 60s and beyond. How do you manage your 60s and beyond. How do you manage your 60s and beyond. How do you manage your energy? What are you doing? What are you energy? What are you doing? What are you energy? What are you doing? What are you noticing? Can I ask how far into your noticing? Can I ask how far into your noticing? Can I ask how far into your sage stage you are? I'm turning I'll be sage stage you are? I'm turning I'll be sage stage you are? I'm turning I'll be 65 in June. Oh wow. So five years in. 65 in June. Oh wow. So five years in. 65 in June. Oh wow. So five years in. Congratulations. Yeah. Loving it. loving Congratulations. Yeah. Loving it. loving Congratulations. Yeah. Loving it. loving it. Um I take a nap every day. Oh, I've it. Um I take a nap every day. Oh, I've it. Um I take a nap every day. Oh, I've been doing that since my 30s. So Oh, been doing that since my 30s. So Oh, been doing that since my 30s. So Oh, brilliant. I love it. I love it. You brilliant. I love it. I love it. You brilliant. I love it. I love it. You take a nap every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. take a nap every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. take a nap every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's conservation of energy. And I I It's conservation of energy. And I I It's conservation of energy. And I I still, you know, I still run the still, you know, I still run the still, you know, I still run the organization. I'm I'm still the organization. I'm I'm still the organization. I'm I'm still the president. We have a staff of about 20 president. We have a staff of about 20 president. We have a staff of about 20 people. When when I'm sitting in people. When when I'm sitting in people. When when I'm sitting in executive meetings and I can feel my executive meetings and I can feel my executive meetings and I can feel my energy coming up over a small energy coming up over a small energy coming up over a small matter, it's like, John, matter, it's like, John, matter, it's like, John, uh, first off, you shouldn't be so amped uh, first off, you shouldn't be so amped uh, first off, you shouldn't be so amped up over something so small. And up over something so small. And up over something so small. And secondly, you you really need to budget secondly, you you really need to budget secondly, you you really need to budget where you invest your where you invest your where you invest your passion. I I can't I don't want to live passion. I I can't I don't want to live passion. I I can't I don't want to live the life. So th this is I literally had the life. So th this is I literally had the life. So th this is I literally had this conversation yesterday with a this conversation yesterday with a this conversation yesterday with a member of our team who is 72 and he's a member of our team who is 72 and he's a member of our team who is 72 and he's a beautiful man and very wise. Um and we beautiful man and very wise. Um and we beautiful man and very wise. Um and we don't need to kick people out the door don't need to kick people out the door don't need to kick people out the door cuz we don't worship youth. We we we cuz we don't worship youth. We we we cuz we don't worship youth. We we we respect wisdom.

respect wisdom. respect wisdom. However, the conversation we were having However, the conversation we were having However, the conversation we were having was you are not was you are not was you are not 50 and you need to lower your 50 and you need to lower your 50 and you need to lower your expectations for your expectations for your expectations for your output. And you could see the identity output. And you could see the identity output. And you could see the identity struggle, you know, uh well then that's struggle, you know, uh well then that's struggle, you know, uh well then that's where God's working. It's like, oh, your where God's working. It's like, oh, your where God's working. It's like, oh, your identity is still tied up in your identity is still tied up in your identity is still tied up in your worksh. Yeah. What do you do with worksh. Yeah. What do you do with worksh. Yeah. What do you do with identity? Because that's a huge issue identity? Because that's a huge issue identity? Because that's a huge issue for church leaders. I mean, it's that for church leaders. I mean, it's that for church leaders. I mean, it's that confusing matrix where what you do is confusing matrix where what you do is confusing matrix where what you do is for God. So, am I being unfaithful if I for God. So, am I being unfaithful if I for God. So, am I being unfaithful if I step away, etc. But, you know, you at step away, etc. But, you know, you at step away, etc. But, you know, you at 65, me at 60, we're still leading our 65, me at 60, we're still leading our 65, me at 60, we're still leading our organizations. A lot of it came about organizations. A lot of it came about organizations. A lot of it came about because of the work we've done, the because of the work we've done, the because of the work we've done, the books we've written, the podcasts we books we've written, the podcasts we books we've written, the podcasts we host, the speaking that we do, etc., host, the speaking that we do, etc., host, the speaking that we do, etc., etc. And honestly, I have no immediate etc. And honestly, I have no immediate etc. And honestly, I have no immediate retirement plans. I get enough time off. retirement plans. I get enough time off. retirement plans. I get enough time off. Tony and I tack on days here and there Tony and I tack on days here and there Tony and I tack on days here and there and take weeks here and there. like it's and take weeks here and there. like it's and take weeks here and there. like it's fine and she's on board with that. And fine and she's on board with that. And fine and she's on board with that. And so I play this intellectual game with is so I play this intellectual game with is so I play this intellectual game with is my identity in my work? I don't think my identity in my work? I don't think my identity in my work? I don't think so. But I think it's a fake game. Like so. But I think it's a fake game. Like so. But I think it's a fake game. Like if it all disappeared tomorrow, who if it all disappeared tomorrow, who if it all disappeared tomorrow, who would I be? I don't know, John. Like I would I be? I don't know, John. Like I would I be? I don't know, John. Like I did okay when I stepped out of the lead did okay when I stepped out of the lead did okay when I stepped out of the lead pastor role a decade ago. Still go to pastor role a decade ago. Still go to pastor role a decade ago. Still go to our church. Still love our church.

our church. Still love our church. our church. Still love our church. Hanging out with our lead pastor Hanging out with our lead pastor Hanging out with our lead pastor tonight. The guy who succeeded me. He's tonight. The guy who succeeded me. He's tonight. The guy who succeeded me. He's a great guy. Jeff is awesome. But I a great guy. Jeff is awesome. But I a great guy. Jeff is awesome. But I stepped into this. So now I had stepped into this. So now I had stepped into this. So now I had something else to replace my identity. something else to replace my identity. something else to replace my identity. So I think it was a fake test. Uh what So I think it was a fake test. Uh what So I think it was a fake test. Uh what what are your thoughts about that? Yeah. what are your thoughts about that? Yeah. what are your thoughts about that? Yeah. Well, this gets us into um this will feel a little bit like a um this will feel a little bit like a right turn, but if you stay with me, right turn, but if you stay with me, right turn, but if you stay with me, you're going to see how utterly relevant you're going to see how utterly relevant you're going to see how utterly relevant this is. We have not um let me try this is. We have not um let me try this again. When Dallas Willard wrote his again. When Dallas Willard wrote his again. When Dallas Willard wrote his seinal book on the spiritual seinal book on the spiritual seinal book on the spiritual disciplines, he called it the spirit of disciplines, he called it the spirit of disciplines, he called it the spirit of the disciplines because he wanted people the disciplines because he wanted people the disciplines because he wanted people to focus on the why. Why do you do these to focus on the why. Why do you do these to focus on the why. Why do you do these things? What is the purpose of fasting, things? What is the purpose of fasting, things? What is the purpose of fasting, silence, solitude, generosity, you know, silence, solitude, generosity, you know, silence, solitude, generosity, you know, etc. What Dallas was saying is you do etc. What Dallas was saying is you do etc. What Dallas was saying is you do these things in order to tap into the these things in order to tap into the these things in order to tap into the unending life of God that is available unending life of God that is available unending life of God that is available to you vine and branch.

to you vine and branch. to you vine and branch. that that is so far beyond most that that is so far beyond most that that is so far beyond most Christian leaders, teachers Christian leaders, teachers Christian leaders, teachers understanding of their spiritual life. understanding of their spiritual life. understanding of their spiritual life. We have a very very leftbrain approach We have a very very leftbrain approach We have a very very leftbrain approach to Christian disciplehip right now in in to Christian disciplehip right now in in to Christian disciplehip right now in in the west. It's content. It's excellent the west. It's content. It's excellent the west. It's content. It's excellent content. you know, it's the quoting the content. you know, it's the quoting the content. you know, it's the quoting the latest research, you know, the new work latest research, you know, the new work latest research, you know, the new work on Mary Magdalene or, you know, um the on Mary Magdalene or, you know, um the on Mary Magdalene or, you know, um the problem is is that the soul is designed problem is is that the soul is designed problem is is that the soul is designed for union with for union with for union with Christ. I mean a deep Christ. I mean a deep Christ. I mean a deep existential, existential, existential, ontological, ontological, ontological, experiential experiential experiential union out of which flows everything else union out of which flows everything else union out of which flows everything else you are and do. you are and do. you are and do. the failure to cultivate that the failure to cultivate that the failure to cultivate that union. If you don't have that union by union. If you don't have that union by union. If you don't have that union by the time you're a sage, you are you are the time you're a sage, you are you are the time you're a sage, you are you are a little bit behind the learning curve a little bit behind the learning curve a little bit behind the learning curve here because I I you don't need it. Your here because I I you don't need it. Your here because I I you don't need it. Your union with union with union with God is enough to provide you with the God is enough to provide you with the God is enough to provide you with the affection and the validation and the affection and the validation and the affection and the validation and the affirmation of your soul.

affirmation of your soul. affirmation of your soul. So you read the mystics, the Christian So you read the mystics, the Christian So you read the mystics, the Christian mystics down through the ages. And I, mystics down through the ages. And I, mystics down through the ages. And I, you know, people that you might not you know, people that you might not you know, people that you might not expect. Thomas Aquinas was a mystic. expect. Thomas Aquinas was a mystic. expect. Thomas Aquinas was a mystic. Martin Luther was a mystic. You know, Martin Luther was a mystic. You know, Martin Luther was a mystic. You know, big leftrain guys, but they would speak big leftrain guys, but they would speak big leftrain guys, but they would speak most tenderly about their most tenderly about their most tenderly about their intimacy with God and their experience intimacy with God and their experience intimacy with God and their experience of him. So it wasn't just academic. of him. So it wasn't just academic. of him. So it wasn't just academic. They're like, "No, I I I know God. I am They're like, "No, I I I know God. I am They're like, "No, I I I know God. I am his friend. I'm the friend of God. his friend. I'm the friend of God. his friend. I'm the friend of God. this um the this um the this um the the orientation towards union has been the orientation towards union has been the orientation towards union has been almost completely lost in western almost completely lost in western almost completely lost in western Christianity. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and Christianity. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and Christianity. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and therefore, you know, we can get into therefore, you know, we can get into therefore, you know, we can get into some of the symptoms of that, but I some of the symptoms of that, but I some of the symptoms of that, but I think you know, my goodness, if you're a think you know, my goodness, if you're a think you know, my goodness, if you're a sage, th this is your main work. It is sage, th this is your main work. It is sage, th this is your main work. It is your deep contemplative life, your your deep contemplative life, your your deep contemplative life, your internal life with internal life with internal life with Jesus. And because it is your one, Jesus. And because it is your one, Jesus. And because it is your one, because it is your greatest because it is your greatest because it is your greatest joy. It's not work, it's joy. Are you joy. It's not work, it's joy. Are you joy. It's not work, it's joy. Are you kidding me? Oh my gosh. Um but also kidding me? Oh my gosh. Um but also kidding me? Oh my gosh. Um but also because yeah, some of the external because yeah, some of the external because yeah, some of the external uh shinier things are going away, you uh shinier things are going away, you uh shinier things are going away, you know. Yeah. Do you find that the things know. Yeah. Do you find that the things know. Yeah. Do you find that the things that motivated you 20 years ago don't that motivated you 20 years ago don't that motivated you 20 years ago don't motivate you as much anymore? Yes. Do motivate you as much anymore? Yes. Do motivate you as much anymore? Yes. Do you want to talk about that process?

you want to talk about that process? you want to talk about that process? Because I think if you're 40, that's Because I think if you're 40, that's Because I think if you're 40, that's really hard to understand. Yes. If really hard to understand. Yes. If really hard to understand. Yes. If you're 40, you don't need to understand. you're 40, you don't need to understand. you're 40, you don't need to understand. Oh, okay. That's good news. Just go do Oh, okay. That's good news. Just go do Oh, okay. That's good news. Just go do what 40-year-olds do. Go do you guys, what 40-year-olds do. Go do you guys, what 40-year-olds do. Go do you guys, there's no skipping class. there's no skipping class. there's no skipping class. So, you can't be a sage at 30. You So, you can't be a sage at 30. You So, you can't be a sage at 30. You can't. You can't. And that's why I was can't. You can't. And that's why I was can't. You can't. And that's why I was saying you really can't be a king at 30 saying you really can't be a king at 30 saying you really can't be a king at 30 either. But if you are in a king role, either. But if you are in a king role, either. But if you are in a king role, just admit, wow, I kind of got promoted just admit, wow, I kind of got promoted just admit, wow, I kind of got promoted early. I better have some support around early. I better have some support around early. I better have some support around me because I don't have the formation of me because I don't have the formation of me because I don't have the formation of the soul yet to carry this that I'll the soul yet to carry this that I'll the soul yet to carry this that I'll have when I when I'm 45. Okay, that's have when I when I'm 45. Okay, that's have when I when I'm 45. Okay, that's okay. No harm, no foul. We're not okay. No harm, no foul. We're not okay. No harm, no foul. We're not shaming anyone for that. Uh but there's shaming anyone for that. Uh but there's shaming anyone for that. Uh but there's no skipping class, gang. There's no no skipping class, gang. There's no no skipping class, gang. There's no skipping class. I I tell you what we do skipping class. I I tell you what we do skipping class. I I tell you what we do need to do though is like Dallas saying need to do though is like Dallas saying need to do though is like Dallas saying the spirit of the disciplines is this. the spirit of the disciplines is this. the spirit of the disciplines is this. We do need a fundamental We do need a fundamental We do need a fundamental reorientation in our disciplehip in our reorientation in our disciplehip in our reorientation in our disciplehip in our teaching to teaching to teaching to um um um towards intimate experience of Jesus as towards intimate experience of Jesus as towards intimate experience of Jesus as the normative Christian life. It's not the normative Christian life. It's not the normative Christian life. It's not because see the thing is you read you because see the thing is you read you because see the thing is you read you know Teresa Milla or John of the Cross know Teresa Milla or John of the Cross know Teresa Milla or John of the Cross you read St. Anthony well you read you read St. Anthony well you read you read St. Anthony well you read Athanasius on Athanasius on Athanasius on Anthony none of these people would say Anthony none of these people would say Anthony none of these people would say they were they were they were exceptional they they would say this exceptional they they would say this exceptional they they would say this isn't rare what I enjoy with God is not isn't rare what I enjoy with God is not isn't rare what I enjoy with God is not rare and it's not meant to be rare and

rare and it's not meant to be rare and rare and it's not meant to be rare and we treat them like they're once in a we treat them like they're once in a we treat them like they're once in a generation exceptions. Yep. Exactly. And generation exceptions. Yep. Exactly. And generation exceptions. Yep. Exactly. And they're not. They're not. And and you they're not. They're not. And and you they're not. They're not. And and you were saying about Dallas. Tell us more were saying about Dallas. Tell us more were saying about Dallas. Tell us more about Dallas. Oh, he's just so precious about Dallas. Oh, he's just so precious about Dallas. Oh, he's just so precious though because Dallas would have told though because Dallas would have told though because Dallas would have told you that as well. He you that as well. He you that as well. He he but he was also a very frank he but he was also a very frank he but he was also a very frank man and man and man and um he would have quoted Evelyn Underh um he would have quoted Evelyn Underh um he would have quoted Evelyn Underh Hill. So Evelyn Underh Hill wrote some Hill. So Evelyn Underh Hill wrote some Hill. So Evelyn Underh Hill wrote some of the definitive work on the Christian of the definitive work on the Christian of the definitive work on the Christian mystics at the turn of the last century. mystics at the turn of the last century. mystics at the turn of the last century. He was a British gal, Anglican, He was a British gal, Anglican, He was a British gal, Anglican, um, fascinated with the life of the um, fascinated with the life of the um, fascinated with the life of the saints and what made them so remarkable, saints and what made them so remarkable, saints and what made them so remarkable, you know, and here's what she concluded. you know, and here's what she concluded. you know, and here's what she concluded. She and she's talking about their She and she's talking about their She and she's talking about their experience of God there because when experience of God there because when experience of God there because when David says things in Psalm 63 like your David says things in Psalm 63 like your David says things in Psalm 63 like your love is better than love is better than love is better than life, he is life, he is life, he is reporting out of an experience of reporting out of an experience of reporting out of an experience of God. It's not just poetry. He's saying, God. It's not just poetry. He's saying, God. It's not just poetry. He's saying, "Oh, no. I I've I know you. I've tasted "Oh, no. I I've I know you. I've tasted "Oh, no. I I've I know you. I've tasted you. There's nothing there's nothing you. There's nothing there's nothing you. There's nothing there's nothing close." Um, so here's what Evelyn Underh close." Um, so here's what Evelyn Underh close." Um, so here's what Evelyn Underh Hill said. She she said that these men Hill said. She she said that these men Hill said. She she said that these men and women had the experiences that they and women had the experiences that they and women had the experiences that they had, had the life with God that they had, had the life with God that they had, had the life with God that they had, and this is the phrase, not because had, and this is the phrase, not because had, and this is the phrase, not because he loved and cared for them more than he he loved and cared for them more than he he loved and cared for them more than he does us. attended to them. Not because does us. attended to them. Not because does us. attended to them. Not because he loved and attended to them more than he loved and attended to them more than he loved and attended to them more than he does us, but because they loved and

he does us, but because they loved and he does us, but because they loved and attended to him more than we attended to him more than we attended to him more than we do. So, I know this has been a big part do. So, I know this has been a big part do. So, I know this has been a big part of your life uh and your new book, of your life uh and your new book, of your life uh and your new book, Experiencing Jesus Experiencing Jesus Experiencing Jesus Really. But I'd love for you to tell us Really. But I'd love for you to tell us Really. But I'd love for you to tell us how you got to a place where that became how you got to a place where that became how you got to a place where that became true in your life. And I know that's true in your life. And I know that's true in your life. And I know that's probably a twohour or two week seminar probably a twohour or two week seminar probably a twohour or two week seminar answer, but I'm wondering if you could answer, but I'm wondering if you could answer, but I'm wondering if you could just give us an indication because just give us an indication because just give us an indication because somebody who's going, I know what you're somebody who's going, I know what you're somebody who's going, I know what you're saying is real, but I don't know how to saying is real, but I don't know how to saying is real, but I don't know how to get there. get there. get there. Yes. I think Yes. I think Yes. I think [Music] um there have been very important um there have been very important moments of what I would call epiphany moments of what I would call epiphany moments of what I would call epiphany and I don't mean wild ecstatic vision and I don't mean wild ecstatic vision and I don't mean wild ecstatic vision though I have had many visions though I have had many visions though I have had many visions um it's not that it it one of the first um it's not that it it one of the first um it's not that it it one of the first ones came ones came ones came uh into young 30s 10-year-old marriage uh into young 30s 10-year-old marriage uh into young 30s 10-year-old marriage and it was the and it was the and it was the realization, oh my realization, oh my realization, oh my god, this woman will never fill god, this woman will never fill god, this woman will never fill me. What do I do with the aching abyss me. What do I do with the aching abyss me. What do I do with the aching abyss that is my heart? You know, what do I do that is my heart? You know, what do I do that is my heart? You know, what do I do with this? And it it was it was shocking with this? And it it was it was shocking with this? And it it was it was shocking to me because I thought marriage would to me because I thought marriage would to me because I thought marriage would do it. you fall in love, there's

do it. you fall in love, there's do it. you fall in love, there's romance, there's joy, there's great romance, there's joy, there's great romance, there's joy, there's great physical intimacy for the rest of your physical intimacy for the rest of your physical intimacy for the rest of your life. Um, that was that was a really life. Um, that was that was a really life. Um, that was that was a really pivotal moment for me. And and yes, pivotal moment for me. And and yes, pivotal moment for me. And and yes, Stacy was at that point also struggling. Stacy was at that point also struggling. Stacy was at that point also struggling. She was battling a clinical depression. She was battling a clinical depression. She was battling a clinical depression. And so I've got a I've got a wife who is And so I've got a I've got a wife who is And so I've got a I've got a wife who is in no way quote meeting my needs. Yeah. in no way quote meeting my needs. Yeah. in no way quote meeting my needs. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that really drove me to Yeah. Um, but that really drove me to Yeah. Um, but that really drove me to God. It drove me to him. And you will God. It drove me to him. And you will God. It drove me to him. And you will you will find this you will find this in you will find this you will find this in you will find this you will find this in that you know the people that say when that you know the people that say when that you know the people that say when my my my mother-in-law died mother-in-law died mother-in-law died uh of cancer it's a beautiful Catholic uh of cancer it's a beautiful Catholic uh of cancer it's a beautiful Catholic woman um what they called the daily woman um what they called the daily woman um what they called the daily communicant she was there you know for communicant she was there you know for communicant she was there you know for the sacrament every day um she wrote a the sacrament every day um she wrote a the sacrament every day um she wrote a letter to her church that we found in letter to her church that we found in letter to her church that we found in her Bible and she said I could just weep her Bible and she said I could just weep her Bible and she said I could just weep at this she says I thank God for my at this she says I thank God for my at this she says I thank God for my cancer cancer cancer because what I have learned about because what I have learned about because what I have learned about him and what I have experienced from him and what I have experienced from him and what I have experienced from your love in these last two years is your love in these last two years is your love in these last two years is like nothing I've had in my like nothing I've had in my like nothing I've had in my life. So, life. So, life. So, um folks, your pain will drive you here um folks, your pain will drive you here um folks, your pain will drive you here if you let it. your disappointment, your if you let it. your disappointment, your if you let it. your disappointment, your physical suffering, your kids' food physical suffering, your kids' food physical suffering, your kids' food allergies, your child's learning allergies, your child's learning allergies, your child's learning disability. The heartache will drive you disability. The heartache will drive you disability. The heartache will drive you here if you will let it it will drive here if you will let it it will drive here if you will let it it will drive you to an inexhaustible

you to an inexhaustible you to an inexhaustible source of love and what the old saints source of love and what the old saints source of love and what the old saints would call consolation, right? Just that would call consolation, right? Just that would call consolation, right? Just that the the well-being that comes from being the the well-being that comes from being the the well-being that comes from being in the presence of God. Okay? But there in the presence of God. Okay? But there in the presence of God. Okay? But there are a couple other are a couple other are a couple other watershed watershed watershed moments. moments. moments. Um, and I I the the second would be I Um, and I I the the second would be I Um, and I I the the second would be I call it the second wardrobe door. call it the second wardrobe door. call it the second wardrobe door. Meeting Christ. I came to Jesus by the Meeting Christ. I came to Jesus by the Meeting Christ. I came to Jesus by the way in the Jesus revolution. So way in the Jesus revolution. So way in the Jesus revolution. So literally I did I was in LA. it was, you literally I did I was in LA. it was, you literally I did I was in LA. it was, you know, Keith Green and all that stuff was know, Keith Green and all that stuff was know, Keith Green and all that stuff was going on and Vineyard was just starting going on and Vineyard was just starting going on and Vineyard was just starting and Calvary, you know, Costa Mesa was and Calvary, you know, Costa Mesa was and Calvary, you know, Costa Mesa was the place to be and the place to be and the place to be and um and I came to Christ out of an um and I came to Christ out of an um and I came to Christ out of an encounter with encounter with encounter with him and like the Muslims are right now him and like the Muslims are right now him and like the Muslims are right now in in the Islamic world. I I had a in in the Islamic world. I I had a in in the Islamic world. I I had a direct personal meeting of Jesus. I'd direct personal meeting of Jesus. I'd direct personal meeting of Jesus. I'd have anybody share the gospel with me.

have anybody share the gospel with me. have anybody share the gospel with me. You saw him. He walked into my bedroom You saw him. He walked into my bedroom You saw him. He walked into my bedroom one night and and I could sense his one night and and I could sense his one night and and I could sense his presence. I didn't see him visually, but presence. I didn't see him visually, but presence. I didn't see him visually, but I felt his presence and within my heart, I felt his presence and within my heart, I felt his presence and within my heart, you know, the burning in your heart, you know, the burning in your heart, you know, the burning in your heart, right, that Wesley would talk about and right, that Wesley would talk about and right, that Wesley would talk about and others. Um, and the conviction of sin, others. Um, and the conviction of sin, others. Um, and the conviction of sin, by the way, also, you know, it wasn't by the way, also, you know, it wasn't by the way, also, you know, it wasn't just all warm and fuzzy. It was, "Oh my just all warm and fuzzy. It was, "Oh my just all warm and fuzzy. It was, "Oh my gosh, I am I it was your thing. If I gosh, I am I it was your thing. If I gosh, I am I it was your thing. If I continue in the trajectory I am now, I'm continue in the trajectory I am now, I'm continue in the trajectory I am now, I'm going to be a horrible human being. Who going to be a horrible human being. Who going to be a horrible human being. Who can save me? And so for me, salvation can save me? And so for me, salvation can save me? And so for me, salvation wasn't just eternal. Salvation was wasn't just eternal. Salvation was wasn't just eternal. Salvation was character. It it it was personal. I character. It it it was personal. I character. It it it was personal. I literally need to be saved from who I am literally need to be saved from who I am literally need to be saved from who I am and who I am becoming. So that personal and who I am becoming. So that personal and who I am becoming. So that personal encounter with Jesus encounter with Jesus encounter with Jesus um enabled me. God bless him. Wait, God um enabled me. God bless him. Wait, God um enabled me. God bless him. Wait, God bless him. He is God. Uh it it enabled bless him. He is God. Uh it it enabled bless him. He is God. Uh it it enabled me to realize that that you know Paul's me to realize that that you know Paul's me to realize that that you know Paul's Damascus road Paul becomes a Christian Damascus road Paul becomes a Christian Damascus road Paul becomes a Christian not because somebody walked him through not because somebody walked him through not because somebody walked him through the Old Testament and showed him the the Old Testament and showed him the the Old Testament and showed him the proof of proof of proof of Jesus. Paul becomes a Christian because Jesus. Paul becomes a Christian because Jesus. Paul becomes a Christian because he encounters Jesus. Yeah. And knocked he encounters Jesus. Yeah. And knocked he encounters Jesus. Yeah. And knocked off his horse. Yeah. Mary Magdalene off his horse. Yeah. Mary Magdalene off his horse. Yeah. Mary Magdalene meets Jesus, the resurrected Christ at meets Jesus, the resurrected Christ at meets Jesus, the resurrected Christ at the tomb right there.

the tomb right there. the tomb right there. Um the realization that Jesus wants to Um the realization that Jesus wants to Um the realization that Jesus wants to continue to encounter us was built into continue to encounter us was built into continue to encounter us was built into my spiritual framework early. So I think my spiritual framework early. So I think my spiritual framework early. So I think I I have to give I just have to give I I have to give I just have to give I I have to give I just have to give gratitude to that because many people gratitude to that because many people gratitude to that because many people have not been you know that hasn't been have not been you know that hasn't been have not been you know that hasn't been their experience. their experience. their experience. Um what is what is the journey forward Um what is what is the journey forward Um what is what is the journey forward to that? Well, we began to experience a good deal Well, we began to experience a good deal of spiritual of spiritual of spiritual warfare. My wife would have these dizzy warfare. My wife would have these dizzy warfare. My wife would have these dizzy spells that were not medical. Um, we spells that were not medical. Um, we spells that were not medical. Um, we would get into fights that would just be would get into fights that would just be would get into fights that would just be completely out of the blue and over completely out of the blue and over completely out of the blue and over nothing. And and we we started reading nothing. And and we we started reading nothing. And and we we started reading Neil Anderson. We started listening to Neil Anderson. We started listening to Neil Anderson. We started listening to some of what he was saying and we went, some of what he was saying and we went, some of what he was saying and we went, "Wait a second. We have a very "Wait a second. We have a very "Wait a second. We have a very postenlightenment spiritual view of the postenlightenment spiritual view of the postenlightenment spiritual view of the world. Meaning we don't have a spiritual world. Meaning we don't have a spiritual world. Meaning we don't have a spiritual view of the world. Yeah. Yeah. It's all view of the world. Yeah. Yeah. It's all view of the world. Yeah. Yeah. It's all right. Everything is biology. You know, right. Everything is biology. You know, right. Everything is biology. You know, everything's biology and psychology.

everything's biology and psychology. everything's biology and psychology. Um so opening up awakening to the unseen Um so opening up awakening to the unseen Um so opening up awakening to the unseen realm and how very you know like a Tim realm and how very you know like a Tim realm and how very you know like a Tim Mackey and others would say you live in Mackey and others would say you live in Mackey and others would say you live in a highly populated universe folks. a highly populated universe folks. a highly populated universe folks. um in learning to deal with the unseen um in learning to deal with the unseen um in learning to deal with the unseen realm, well, that continues to open up realm, well, that continues to open up realm, well, that continues to open up your experience of Christ because you're your experience of Christ because you're your experience of Christ because you're like, well, if the if the kingdom of like, well, if the if the kingdom of like, well, if the if the kingdom of darkness is this real, then then the darkness is this real, then then the darkness is this real, then then the kingdom of God must be more kingdom of God must be more kingdom of God must be more so. And so, that would be one. Learning so. And so, that would be one. Learning so. And so, that would be one. Learning to deal with the unseen realm has been to deal with the unseen realm has been to deal with the unseen realm has been it's been a lifesaver for us and and we it's been a lifesaver for us and and we it's been a lifesaver for us and and we help many people with that now. help many people with that now. help many people with that now. Um and and then I would say so the first Um and and then I would say so the first Um and and then I would say so the first book I wrote I wrote with my colleague book I wrote I wrote with my colleague book I wrote I wrote with my colleague Brent uh was called the sacred romance. Brent uh was called the sacred romance. Brent uh was called the sacred romance. It's not a marriage book. It it's a It's not a marriage book. It it's a It's not a marriage book. It it's a redefining of the gospel as the great redefining of the gospel as the great redefining of the gospel as the great love love love story. Well, at the center of the sacred story. Well, at the center of the sacred story. Well, at the center of the sacred romance is the human heart. And the romance is the human heart. And the romance is the human heart. And the church had really exiled the heart church had really exiled the heart church had really exiled the heart uh you know from some bad theology. You uh you know from some bad theology. You uh you know from some bad theology. You know they were stuck in Jeremiah 17:9 know they were stuck in Jeremiah 17:9 know they were stuck in Jeremiah 17:9 uh they didn't you know Ezekiel Jeremiah uh they didn't you know Ezekiel Jeremiah uh they didn't you know Ezekiel Jeremiah also promising the new heart a new heart also promising the new heart a new heart also promising the new heart a new heart I will give you. Yeah. Um and Jesus I will give you. Yeah. Um and Jesus I will give you. Yeah. Um and Jesus teaching on the new heart Paul's teaching on the new heart Paul's teaching on the new heart Paul's teaching on the new heart. Well, we were teaching on the new heart. Well, we were teaching on the new heart. Well, we were we were early in the curve of the we were early in the curve of the we were early in the curve of the recovery of the centrality of the

recovery of the centrality of the recovery of the centrality of the heart. Um, that the mind is a beautiful heart. Um, that the mind is a beautiful heart. Um, that the mind is a beautiful instrument, but it was never meant to instrument, but it was never meant to instrument, but it was never meant to supplant the heart. The heart is the supplant the heart. The heart is the supplant the heart. The heart is the center of the action. In scripture, it center of the action. In scripture, it center of the action. In scripture, it is the center of the is the center of the is the center of the action. And, you know, as a young action. And, you know, as a young action. And, you know, as a young therapist, I'm obviously working with therapist, I'm obviously working with therapist, I'm obviously working with that in people's hearts. But what that that in people's hearts. But what that that in people's hearts. But what that opened up for me was, "Oh, this is all opened up for me was, "Oh, this is all opened up for me was, "Oh, this is all about intimacy from the about intimacy from the about intimacy from the heart." Well, that'll that'll change heart." Well, that'll that'll change heart." Well, that'll that'll change your life. So, each of these steps, you your life. So, each of these steps, you your life. So, each of these steps, you know, the unseen realm is real, the know, the unseen realm is real, the know, the unseen realm is real, the intimacy from the intimacy from the intimacy from the heart. heart. heart. Um, I think Jesus gives every person, Um, I think Jesus gives every person, Um, I think Jesus gives every person, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." I think Jesus is knocking constantly. I I think Jesus is knocking constantly. I I think Jesus is knocking constantly. I think he's constantly giving us think he's constantly giving us think he's constantly giving us opportunities. And I would hear people opportunities. And I would hear people opportunities. And I would hear people in prayer meetings praying with an in prayer meetings praying with an in prayer meetings praying with an intimacy with intimacy with intimacy with God that frankly I I just found really God that frankly I I just found really God that frankly I I just found really disruptive. And I could have made one of disruptive. And I could have made one of disruptive. And I could have made one of two choices. I could have said, "Oh, two choices. I could have said, "Oh, two choices. I could have said, "Oh, that's nonsense. That's emotional that's nonsense. That's emotional that's nonsense. That's emotional nonsense." But instead, I said, "I want nonsense." But instead, I said, "I want nonsense." But instead, I said, "I want that." Wow.

that." Wow. that." Wow. I want I want I want that. So you can hear there's these that. So you can hear there's these that. So you can hear there's these stages, turns, twists, opportunities stages, turns, twists, opportunities stages, turns, twists, opportunities into the deeper life in into the life of into the deeper life in into the life of into the deeper life in into the life of communion. And then you know you start communion. And then you know you start communion. And then you know you start reading you start reading this the reading you start reading this the reading you start reading this the mystics you start reading from George mystics you start reading from George mystics you start reading from George McDonald all the way back John of the McDonald all the way back John of the McDonald all the way back John of the cross you and you're going oh you know cross you and you're going oh you know cross you and you're going oh you know um this was what I was reading in um this was what I was reading in um this was what I was reading in brother Lawrence uh the Carmelite frier brother Lawrence uh the Carmelite frier brother Lawrence uh the Carmelite frier who worked in the kitchen in Paris who worked in the kitchen in Paris who worked in the kitchen in Paris famous now for his book practicing the famous now for his book practicing the famous now for his book practicing the presence of presence of presence of God here's what brother Lawrence says he God here's what brother Lawrence says he God here's what brother Lawrence says he says I cannot understand how religious says I cannot understand how religious says I cannot understand how religious people can be people can be people can be satisfied with anything apart from daily satisfied with anything apart from daily satisfied with anything apart from daily communion with communion with communion with Christ. He's describing intimacy, an Christ. He's describing intimacy, an Christ. He's describing intimacy, an actual living reality. He says, "For my actual living reality. He says, "For my actual living reality. He says, "For my part, I keep myself," he called it part, I keep myself," he called it part, I keep myself," he called it retired away. He He is He has turned retired away. He He is He has turned retired away. He He is He has turned inward to the inner communion with inward to the inner communion with inward to the inner communion with Christ who now dwells in the heart of Christ who now dwells in the heart of Christ who now dwells in the heart of the believer. He says, "I I I keep the believer. He says, "I I I keep the believer. He says, "I I I keep myself there and any any any turn away myself there and any any any turn away myself there and any any any turn away from him is insupportable to from him is insupportable to from him is insupportable to me." Well, that's pretty hard to me." Well, that's pretty hard to me." Well, that's pretty hard to practice when you are just running practice when you are just running practice when you are just running programs. Yes.

programs. Yes. programs. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there is I mean, God is Yeah. You know, there is I mean, God is Yeah. You know, there is I mean, God is sovereign, but there's a lot of activity sovereign, but there's a lot of activity sovereign, but there's a lot of activity on behalf of God without a lot of on behalf of God without a lot of on behalf of God without a lot of knowing God. And God somehow manages to knowing God. And God somehow manages to knowing God. And God somehow manages to use the bunch of it. But you know, Tony use the bunch of it. But you know, Tony use the bunch of it. But you know, Tony and I, my wife, we've been talking and I, my wife, we've been talking and I, my wife, we've been talking lately. We've been through all kinds of lately. We've been through all kinds of lately. We've been through all kinds of ups and downs. I know you and Stacy have ups and downs. I know you and Stacy have ups and downs. I know you and Stacy have talked about your marriage publicly, and talked about your marriage publicly, and talked about your marriage publicly, and you've had seasons that were extremely you've had seasons that were extremely you've had seasons that were extremely difficult and perhaps one or two where difficult and perhaps one or two where difficult and perhaps one or two where you wondered, "How are we going to make you wondered, "How are we going to make you wondered, "How are we going to make it through that?" And y Tony and I have it through that?" And y Tony and I have it through that?" And y Tony and I have been there. And we we're in a like the been there. And we we're in a like the been there. And we we're in a like the best season ever. And I said to her the best season ever. And I said to her the best season ever. And I said to her the other night, if I could go back and tell other night, if I could go back and tell other night, if I could go back and tell my 30-year-old self, like, it gets this my 30-year-old self, like, it gets this my 30-year-old self, like, it gets this good. Just hang in there, I don't know good. Just hang in there, I don't know good. Just hang in there, I don't know whether I would have believed it at 30. whether I would have believed it at 30. whether I would have believed it at 30. You know, like like you almost have to You know, like like you almost have to You know, like like you almost have to go through the lived experiences and the go through the lived experiences and the go through the lived experiences and the the challenges to get to the other side the challenges to get to the other side the challenges to get to the other side and go, "This is fantastic." And I'm and go, "This is fantastic." And I'm and go, "This is fantastic." And I'm pretty sure 90% of couples never get pretty sure 90% of couples never get pretty sure 90% of couples never get here. Like, yeah, it's it's wonderful.

here. Like, yeah, it's it's wonderful. here. Like, yeah, it's it's wonderful. Um, and I I want that with Jesus, too. Um, and I I want that with Jesus, too. Um, and I I want that with Jesus, too. Just pause. I just want to pause and let Just pause. I just want to pause and let Just pause. I just want to pause and let everybody hear what you just said, okay? everybody hear what you just said, okay? everybody hear what you just said, okay? Because they need to know that this life Because they need to know that this life Because they need to know that this life is is is available. I want to say Stacy and I available. I want to say Stacy and I available. I want to say Stacy and I love our marriage. We have a gas love our marriage. We have a gas love our marriage. We have a gas together. There is so much laughter in together. There is so much laughter in together. There is so much laughter in our our our house at house at house at 65. like just to hold out like wow maybe 65. like just to hold out like wow maybe 65. like just to hold out like wow maybe there's a different way of you know there's a different way of you know there's a different way of you know we're not just domestic partners or you we're not just domestic partners or you we're not just domestic partners or you know know know co-careerists like there's a joy there's co-careerists like there's a joy there's co-careerists like there's a joy there's an an an intimacy that's available people just intimacy that's available people just intimacy that's available people just need to know that yeah and and a knowing need to know that yeah and and a knowing need to know that yeah and and a knowing that gets richer after 35 years like I that gets richer after 35 years like I that gets richer after 35 years like I can tell by her breathing how she's can tell by her breathing how she's can tell by her breathing how she's doing and she can tell by my breathing doing and she can tell by my breathing doing and she can tell by my breathing how I'm doing. You don't have that with how I'm doing. You don't have that with how I'm doing. You don't have that with strangers and someone who knows, you strangers and someone who knows, you strangers and someone who knows, you know, there are direct parallels between know, there are direct parallels between know, there are direct parallels between your relationship with God and intimacy your relationship with God and intimacy your relationship with God and intimacy with God and intimacy with your spouse.

with God and intimacy with your spouse. with God and intimacy with your spouse. I think potentially and not everybody I think potentially and not everybody I think potentially and not everybody has a great marriage and you know we we has a great marriage and you know we we has a great marriage and you know we we didn't have abuse in our marriage or an didn't have abuse in our marriage or an didn't have abuse in our marriage or an affair in our marriage that we needed to affair in our marriage that we needed to affair in our marriage that we needed to recover from. Thank goodness. But um recover from. Thank goodness. But um recover from. Thank goodness. But um yeah, I I see a parallel there and uh yeah, I I see a parallel there and uh yeah, I I see a parallel there and uh and that's a quest for me. It's a quest and that's a quest for me. It's a quest and that's a quest for me. It's a quest for me. went to a funeral of a 91y old for me. went to a funeral of a 91y old for me. went to a funeral of a 91y old man, father of a friend who died and he man, father of a friend who died and he man, father of a friend who died and he prayed every day on his knees. So since prayed every day on his knees. So since prayed every day on his knees. So since that funeral, I've been praying every that funeral, I've been praying every that funeral, I've been praying every day on my knees. I thought, you know day on my knees. I thought, you know day on my knees. I thought, you know what, that's going to make me more what, that's going to make me more what, that's going to make me more focused. Hasn't beautiful. You know, I'm focused. Hasn't beautiful. You know, I'm focused. Hasn't beautiful. You know, I'm not I haven't been kned for saintthood not I haven't been kned for saintthood not I haven't been kned for saintthood yet. But you know, we're we're just that yet. But you know, we're we're just that yet. But you know, we're we're just that long obedience in the same direction. long obedience in the same direction. long obedience in the same direction. Yes. Yes. And the small choices. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And the small choices. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And the small choices. Yeah. Yeah. It's a small simple choice that Yeah. It's a small simple choice that Yeah. It's a small simple choice that will make a difference. will make a difference. will make a difference. John, this has been really really rich. John, this has been really really rich. John, this has been really really rich. What I mean there's so much again this What I mean there's so much again this What I mean there's so much again this could be a two week, two month seminar. could be a two week, two month seminar. could be a two week, two month seminar. I know but I'm wondering you know for I know but I'm wondering you know for I know but I'm wondering you know for leaders who are listening is there one leaders who are listening is there one leaders who are listening is there one more word you might have one more twist more word you might have one more twist more word you might have one more twist insight thought that would help leaders insight thought that would help leaders insight thought that would help leaders of every stage of every stage of every stage um kind of go hang in there. Uh you're um kind of go hang in there. Uh you're um kind of go hang in there. Uh you're going to get through this. Embrace your going to get through this. Embrace your going to get through this. Embrace your stage. Make some change. I don't know stage. Make some change. I don't know stage. Make some change. I don't know like what what else is the spirit laying like what what else is the spirit laying like what what else is the spirit laying on your on your on your heart? The the Christian life was always heart? The the Christian life was always heart? The the Christian life was always meant to be deeply deeply meant to be deeply deeply meant to be deeply deeply experiential. John 10, my sheep hear my

experiential. John 10, my sheep hear my experiential. John 10, my sheep hear my voice. So that when you are in your 20s, voice. So that when you are in your 20s, voice. So that when you are in your 20s, you're asking questions. Lord, what's my you're asking questions. Lord, what's my you're asking questions. Lord, what's my calling? What's my purpose? What's my calling? What's my purpose? What's my calling? What's my purpose? What's my training right now? What do you want me training right now? What do you want me training right now? What do you want me to try? Do I go to grad school? Do I to try? Do I go to grad school? Do I to try? Do I go to grad school? Do I take this job? take this job? take this job? um Jesus will walk you through that um Jesus will walk you through that um Jesus will walk you through that stage, right? And then you're in your stage, right? And then you're in your stage, right? And then you're in your 30s and yeah, what I'm describing is 30s and yeah, what I'm describing is 30s and yeah, what I'm describing is um the deep existential experiential um the deep existential experiential um the deep existential experiential nature of the Christian life, walking nature of the Christian life, walking nature of the Christian life, walking with God is available to you every day with God is available to you every day with God is available to you every day at every stage you're at every stage you're at every stage you're at. And when you taste that, when you at. And when you taste that, when you at. And when you taste that, when you begin to experience it, you wouldn't begin to experience it, you wouldn't begin to experience it, you wouldn't trade it for the world. Yeah. Well, you got a new book. It's Yeah. Well, you got a new book. It's called Experiencing Jesus. Really? Uh, called Experiencing Jesus. Really? Uh, called Experiencing Jesus. Really? Uh, it's available everywhere. Um, the it's available everywhere. Um, the it's available everywhere. Um, the framework that we spent a lot of this framework that we spent a lot of this framework that we spent a lot of this podcast on, the different stages, podcast on, the different stages, podcast on, the different stages, beloved son, warrior, ranger, sage, beloved son, warrior, ranger, sage, beloved son, warrior, ranger, sage, king, etc. Where where is that written king, etc. Where where is that written king, etc. Where where is that written down? I know it's written down, but down? I know it's written down, but down? I know it's written down, but which of the books that's in a book which of the books that's in a book which of the books that's in a book called Fathered by God?

called Fathered by God? called Fathered by God? And there's a female equivalent, right? And there's a female equivalent, right? And there's a female equivalent, right? We've been very male-centered in this We've been very male-centered in this We've been very male-centered in this podcast, but didn't Stacy write podcast, but didn't Stacy write podcast, but didn't Stacy write something very similar. She's not something very similar. She's not something very similar. She's not published it yet. Oh, it's coming out. published it yet. Oh, it's coming out. published it yet. Oh, it's coming out. Is it? Yeah. It must have been a talk or Is it? Yeah. It must have been a talk or Is it? Yeah. It must have been a talk or two because I know we've had spoken on two because I know we've had spoken on two because I know we've had spoken on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we will. So, is that forthcoming or we will. So, is that forthcoming or we will. So, is that forthcoming or maybe one day? It will. It will. Okay. maybe one day? It will. It will. Okay. maybe one day? It will. It will. Okay. It will. All right. So, we got to watch It will. All right. So, we got to watch It will. All right. So, we got to watch for that in the future. Yeah. And um No, for that in the future. Yeah. And um No, for that in the future. Yeah. And um No, that was very formative book for me and that was very formative book for me and that was very formative book for me and showed me some Oh, I had one more showed me some Oh, I had one more showed me some Oh, I had one more question for you. Yeah. Beloved son, the question for you. Yeah. Beloved son, the question for you. Yeah. Beloved son, the whole How did And again, another two-eek How did And again, another two-eek course coming up with John Eldridge. How course coming up with John Eldridge. How course coming up with John Eldridge. How how did you begin to repair that? How how did you begin to repair that? How how did you begin to repair that? How old were you and when did you Because old were you and when did you Because old were you and when did you Because you're right, there are leaders my age. you're right, there are leaders my age. you're right, there are leaders my age. The wound is obvious to everybody but The wound is obvious to everybody but The wound is obvious to everybody but not to them. There are public figures, not to them. There are public figures, not to them. There are public figures, megaurch pastors. The wound is obvious megaurch pastors. The wound is obvious megaurch pastors. The wound is obvious to everyone but not to them. So when you to everyone but not to them. So when you to everyone but not to them. So when you began to realize, I did not get the began to realize, I did not get the began to realize, I did not get the nurturing, the secure attachment I nurturing, the secure attachment I nurturing, the secure attachment I needed as a child. What what started to needed as a child. What what started to needed as a child. What what started to heal that wound for you?

heal that wound for you? heal that wound for you? Well, you have to grieve it. Well, you have to grieve it. Well, you have to grieve it. You you can't skip class. You have to You you can't skip class. You have to You you can't skip class. You have to grieve what your relationship with your grieve what your relationship with your grieve what your relationship with your dad was like. You have to be honest dad was like. You have to be honest dad was like. You have to be honest about it and you have to grieve it. And about it and you have to grieve it. And about it and you have to grieve it. And then I needed to allow then I needed to allow then I needed to allow in father God in a way that I hadn't in father God in a way that I hadn't in father God in a way that I hadn't because I didn't like fathers. Oh yeah. because I didn't like fathers. Oh yeah. because I didn't like fathers. Oh yeah. I was great with I was great with I was great with Jesus, right? Because he's a brother. Jesus, right? Because he's a brother. Jesus, right? Because he's a brother. But I was not interested in father God But I was not interested in father God But I was not interested in father God for a long time. Wow. Uh, I had to open for a long time. Wow. Uh, I had to open for a long time. Wow. Uh, I had to open my heart to being fathered, which is my heart to being fathered, which is my heart to being fathered, which is risky. Yes, it is. And to ask him to risky. Yes, it is. And to ask him to risky. Yes, it is. And to ask him to love me and to speak to me and to father love me and to speak to me and to father love me and to speak to me and to father me and and oh my gosh, and that that me and and oh my gosh, and that that me and and oh my gosh, and that that story is told in Father by God. I mean, story is told in Father by God. I mean, story is told in Father by God. I mean, the stuff that he began to do was just the stuff that he began to do was just the stuff that he began to do was just wild. And he will bring human wild. And he will bring human wild. And he will bring human representatives, you know, he'll bring representatives, you know, he'll bring representatives, you know, he'll bring fathering along that you walk away from fathering along that you walk away from fathering along that you walk away from a coffee and you go, "Oh, that was you, a coffee and you go, "Oh, that was you, a coffee and you go, "Oh, that was you, Papa. That was you fathering me. Thank Papa. That was you fathering me. Thank Papa. That was you fathering me. Thank you for that, gentlemen. But that was you for that, gentlemen. But that was you for that, gentlemen. But that was you." I had to open my heart to the you." I had to open my heart to the you." I had to open my heart to the father ache. Um, I had to forgive my father ache. Um, I had to forgive my father ache. Um, I had to forgive my dad. Uh, took me a long time to forgive dad. Uh, took me a long time to forgive dad. Uh, took me a long time to forgive my dad. And then I had to open myself up my dad. And then I had to open myself up my dad. And then I had to open myself up to father God, Papa God in a way that I to father God, Papa God in a way that I to father God, Papa God in a way that I had just not been willing to gosh be had just not been willing to gosh be had just not been willing to gosh be vulnerable. U because Jesus can't father vulnerable. U because Jesus can't father vulnerable. U because Jesus can't father you like the father can. Oh, you like the father can. Oh, you like the father can. Oh, interesting. It is a trinity. He is a

interesting. It is a trinity. He is a interesting. It is a trinity. He is a trinity. Yeah, he is. Holy Spirit can't trinity. Yeah, he is. Holy Spirit can't trinity. Yeah, he is. Holy Spirit can't father you like the father can. father you like the father can. father you like the father can. There's a reason he's called father. Wow. Wow. I don't know why that's a very emotional I don't know why that's a very emotional I don't know why that's a very emotional moment. moment. moment. And God will meet you at any stage And God will meet you at any stage And God will meet you at any stage you're at. Yes. So if you're 17 or 77, you're at. Yes. So if you're 17 or 77, you're at. Yes. So if you're 17 or 77, it's not too late. Yeah. it's not too late. Yeah. it's not too late. Yeah. John, we shouldn't make it so long till John, we shouldn't make it so long till John, we shouldn't make it so long till we're back again. Thank you. I always we're back again. Thank you. I always we're back again. Thank you. I always enjoy it, Carrie. I love it. You're very enjoy it, Carrie. I love it. You're very enjoy it, Carrie. I love it. You're very You're very, very generous with your You're very, very generous with your You're very, very generous with your platform. Thank you. uh you're very platform. Thank you. uh you're very platform. Thank you. uh you're very generous with what you've learned and generous with what you've learned and generous with what you've learned and what God is doing in your life. And I what God is doing in your life. And I what God is doing in your life. And I love having guests for whom it's love having guests for whom it's love having guests for whom it's personal, you know, like your work. I personal, you know, like your work. I personal, you know, like your work. I still remember the first Catalyst when still remember the first Catalyst when still remember the first Catalyst when uh Sacred Romance came out and then Wild uh Sacred Romance came out and then Wild uh Sacred Romance came out and then Wild at Heart came out. Those are amazing at Heart came out. Those are amazing at Heart came out. Those are amazing days and very formative for me. You days and very formative for me. You days and very formative for me. You know, I kind of missed the ranger stage know, I kind of missed the ranger stage know, I kind of missed the ranger stage of my life. We can talk about that some of my life. We can talk about that some of my life. We can talk about that some other time, but it was really other time, but it was really other time, but it was really uh really really powerful, informative.

uh really really powerful, informative. uh really really powerful, informative. So, we got the books out there, but I So, we got the books out there, but I So, we got the books out there, but I imagine there's some people are you imagine there's some people are you imagine there's some people are you still doing retreats? Yep. Yeah. So, if still doing retreats? Yep. Yeah. So, if still doing retreats? Yep. Yeah. So, if people want to find out what is on the people want to find out what is on the people want to find out what is on the menu, where do they go? menu, where do they go? menu, where do they go? Wildatart.org.org. Wildatart.org. Wildatart.org.org. Wildatart.org. Wildatart.org.org. Wildatart.org. You'll get a florist shop in England. You'll get a florist shop in England. You'll get a florist shop in England. Oh, well, hey, I'm sure I'm sure uh you Oh, well, hey, I'm sure I'm sure uh you Oh, well, hey, I'm sure I'm sure uh you know, lovely flowers, but yeah, we're know, lovely flowers, but yeah, we're know, lovely flowers, but yeah, we're after something else. Yeah, John, until after something else. Yeah, John, until after something else. Yeah, John, until next time. Thank you. Such a gift. Such next time. Thank you. Such a gift. Such next time. Thank you. Such a gift. Such a gift. Thanks for your generosity.