Why Woke Broke: The Massive Trump-Era Cultural Upheaval with Mark Sayers

you've seen X go from Jack dorsy to musk you've seen X go from Jack dorsy to musk so that's changed X um Zuckerberg has so that's changed X um Zuckerberg has so that's changed X um Zuckerberg has had this come to Trump moment across had this come to Trump moment across had this come to Trump moment across leftwing parties across the world are leftwing parties across the world are leftwing parties across the world are having behind doors meetings saying this having behind doors meetings saying this having behind doors meetings saying this stuff is killing us we have to Pivot and stuff is killing us we have to Pivot and stuff is killing us we have to Pivot and reinvent so that's my sort of reinvent so that's my sort of reinvent so that's my sort of overarching case why woke broke in 2024 overarching case why woke broke in 2024 overarching case why woke broke in 2024 if you've ever wondered why woke broke if you've ever wondered why woke broke if you've ever wondered why woke broke whether it is broken what is going on whether it is broken what is going on whether it is broken what is going on with a massive Trump era cultural with a massive Trump era cultural with a massive Trump era cultural upheaval happening in front of our eyes upheaval happening in front of our eyes upheaval happening in front of our eyes and how to find hope in the new Global and how to find hope in the new Global and how to find hope in the new Global chaos you've come to the right place chaos you've come to the right place chaos you've come to the right place welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast today I have none other than podcast today I have none other than podcast today I have none other than mark sers on the podcast we are going to mark sers on the podcast we are going to mark sers on the podcast we are going to talk about all of that and more one of talk about all of that and more one of talk about all of that and more one of my favorite interviews I've done in a my favorite interviews I've done in a my favorite interviews I've done in a long long time if you're enjoying it I'm long long time if you're enjoying it I'm long long time if you're enjoying it I'm sure the comments are going to be sure the comments are going to be sure the comments are going to be interesting on this one like subscribe interesting on this one like subscribe interesting on this one like subscribe leave a comment to join the conversation leave a comment to join the conversation leave a comment to join the conversation please listen all the way through please listen all the way through please listen all the way through because Mark has done a lot of thinking because Mark has done a lot of thinking because Mark has done a lot of thinking he's kind of got a neutral point of view he's kind of got a neutral point of view he's kind of got a neutral point of view uh but it's going to make a lot of us uh but it's going to make a lot of us uh but it's going to make a lot of us think I think you're going to enjoy it think I think you're going to enjoy it think I think you're going to enjoy it today we are going to get right into the today we are going to get right into the today we are going to get right into the conversation but first a word from conversation but first a word from conversation but first a word from today's very carefully chosen Partners today's very carefully chosen Partners today's very carefully chosen Partners today's episode is brought to you by 10 today's episode is brought to you by 10 today's episode is brought to you by 10 by 10 well like me you know mentoring by 10 well like me you know mentoring by 10 well like me you know mentoring the Next Generation matters but making the Next Generation matters but making the Next Generation matters but making it happen well you know you got a lot on it happen well you know you got a lot on it happen well you know you got a lot on your plate plus how do you do it well your plate plus how do you do it well your plate plus how do you do it well well that's why our friends at 10x10 well that's why our friends at 10x10 well that's why our friends at 10x10 created a NextGen simple mentoring created a NextGen simple mentoring created a NextGen simple mentoring program it's a free resource TurnKey program it's a free resource TurnKey program it's a free resource TurnKey designed for leaders just like you to designed for leaders just like you to designed for leaders just like you to equip the adults in your church with equip the adults in your church with equip the adults in your church with simple everyday steps to love young

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this Easter season so you can get your this Easter season so you can get your tickets for all three parts today at the tickets for all three parts today at the tickets for all three parts today at the chosen ler.com that's the chosen chosen ler.com that's the chosen chosen ler.com that's the chosen laser.com well Mark it's great to have laser.com well Mark it's great to have laser.com well Mark it's great to have you back welcome welcome back to the you back welcome welcome back to the you back welcome welcome back to the podcast I couldn't imagine uh well podcast I couldn't imagine uh well podcast I couldn't imagine uh well actually I've been very excited about actually I've been very excited about actually I've been very excited about this conversation because the world is this conversation because the world is this conversation because the world is changing so so quickly and we're going changing so so quickly and we're going changing so so quickly and we're going to go there yeah it's it's on my someone to go there yeah it's it's on my someone to go there yeah it's it's on my someone who follows these Trends my head is who follows these Trends my head is who follows these Trends my head is spinning yeah well uh I I was telling spinning yeah well uh I I was telling spinning yeah well uh I I was telling you before we hit record I've been you before we hit record I've been you before we hit record I've been sharing your podcast which by the way I sharing your podcast which by the way I sharing your podcast which by the way I highly recommend Rebuilders if you're highly recommend Rebuilders if you're highly recommend Rebuilders if you're not subscribing leaders get on it right not subscribing leaders get on it right not subscribing leaders get on it right now and I mean you'll vary the topic but now and I mean you'll vary the topic but now and I mean you'll vary the topic but you've had a few episodes over the last you've had a few episodes over the last you've had a few episodes over the last few months that just kind of Chronicle few months that just kind of Chronicle few months that just kind of Chronicle what I don't think it's hyperbole is what I don't think it's hyperbole is what I don't think it's hyperbole is kind of a new world order that's kind of a new world order that's kind of a new world order that's happening in front of our eyes so um happening in front of our eyes so um happening in front of our eyes so um yeah let's let's just start there with yeah let's let's just start there with yeah let's let's just start there with what is happening in this cultural what is happening in this cultural what is happening in this cultural moment because it feels like the world moment because it feels like the world moment because it feels like the world we grew up in is slipping away if not we grew up in is slipping away if not we grew up in is slipping away if not gone is that is that what you're seeing gone is that is that what you're seeing gone is that is that what you're seeing yeah I mean I think often you'll have yeah I mean I think often you'll have yeah I mean I think often you'll have people who track a trend you know uh people who track a trend you know uh people who track a trend you know uh artificial intelligence or an ideology artificial intelligence or an ideology artificial intelligence or an ideology or something that's happened in the or something that's happened in the or something that's happened in the world but really we're living through a world but really we're living through a world but really we're living through a moment where there's just multiple epoch moment where there's just multiple epoch moment where there's just multiple epoch changes happening changes happening changes happening simultaneously um you know we're seeing simultaneously um you know we're seeing simultaneously um you know we're seeing a new political order which I know we're a new political order which I know we're a new political order which I know we're going to dig into happening you know uh

going to dig into happening you know uh going to dig into happening you know uh in the Trump Administration but just not in the Trump Administration but just not in the Trump Administration but just not just that Trump like I think you know we just that Trump like I think you know we just that Trump like I think you know we have the as as a recording you know we have the as as a recording you know we have the as as a recording you know we have the German election um I think this have the German election um I think this have the German election um I think this weekend you know could see massive weekend you know could see massive weekend you know could see massive change there the political systems change there the political systems change there the political systems across the world are radically being across the world are radically being across the world are radically being reshaped in entirely new ways which reshaped in entirely new ways which reshaped in entirely new ways which changes things in a domestic level changes things in a domestic level changes things in a domestic level domestic politics but International domestic politics but International domestic politics but International politics um we're seeing you know politics um we're seeing you know politics um we're seeing you know economic change in the world you know economic change in the world you know economic change in the world you know there's a lot of big economic questions there's a lot of big economic questions there's a lot of big economic questions hanging over this moment Wars potential hanging over this moment Wars potential hanging over this moment Wars potential of Wars geopolitical shifts great power of Wars geopolitical shifts great power of Wars geopolitical shifts great power competition and then you're seeing this competition and then you're seeing this competition and then you're seeing this massive technological change you know massive technological change you know massive technological change you know particularly around artificial particularly around artificial particularly around artificial intelligence uh you know Quantum intelligence uh you know Quantum intelligence uh you know Quantum Computing um you know and then there's Computing um you know and then there's Computing um you know and then there's also this weird almost spiritual change also this weird almost spiritual change also this weird almost spiritual change happening in the world as well like happening in the world as well like happening in the world as well like turning on to you know sort of God in a turning on to you know sort of God in a turning on to you know sort of God in a new way so all this is happening new way so all this is happening new way so all this is happening simultaneously and and it's like there simultaneously and and it's like there simultaneously and and it's like there almost a change from if you've gotten almost a change from if you've gotten almost a change from if you've gotten newed to it's almost like everyone sort newed to it's almost like everyone sort newed to it's almost like everyone sort of NEX broke in 2014 to 2016 around uh of NEX broke in 2014 to 2016 around uh of NEX broke in 2014 to 2016 around uh you know seemingly what was a new world you know seemingly what was a new world you know seemingly what was a new world the rise of populism you know woke the rise of populism you know woke the rise of populism you know woke versus conservatism but now it's almost versus conservatism but now it's almost versus conservatism but now it's almost like that world's changed again so you like that world's changed again so you like that world's changed again so you know there's a lot of people who know there's a lot of people who know there's a lot of people who adjusted for the 2016 to 2024 World and adjusted for the 2016 to 2024 World and adjusted for the 2016 to 2024 World and now it's like changing again so yes just now it's like changing again so yes just now it's like changing again so yes just a Cascade of change in the world yeah a Cascade of change in the world yeah a Cascade of change in the world yeah and I think what's significant I mean and I think what's significant I mean and I think what's significant I mean this isn't a political podcast and yours

this isn't a political podcast and yours this isn't a political podcast and yours isn't a political podcast but this is a isn't a political podcast but this is a isn't a political podcast but this is a cultural podcast and it is a leadership cultural podcast and it is a leadership cultural podcast and it is a leadership podcast and I think you know I got a podcast and I think you know I got a podcast and I think you know I got a background in history and political background in history and political background in history and political science as well as law and science as well as law and science as well as law and theology I have never seen things change theology I have never seen things change theology I have never seen things change faster in my life and as you say layered faster in my life and as you say layered faster in my life and as you say layered change it's technology it's politics change it's technology it's politics change it's technology it's politics it's War it's peace I mean you know I it's War it's peace I mean you know I it's War it's peace I mean you know I don't want to timestamp our date of don't want to timestamp our date of don't want to timestamp our date of recording too quickly but if you look at recording too quickly but if you look at recording too quickly but if you look at what's happened from November to Q what's happened from November to Q what's happened from November to Q November 2024 to q1 2025 it's November 2024 to q1 2025 it's November 2024 to q1 2025 it's almost yeah a Quantum shift so why don't almost yeah a Quantum shift so why don't almost yeah a Quantum shift so why don't we break it down and why don't we start we break it down and why don't we start we break it down and why don't we start with um Trump because he is with um Trump because he is with um Trump because he is redefining how politics is done and a redefining how politics is done and a redefining how politics is done and a whole lot more and again for those of whole lot more and again for those of whole lot more and again for those of you you know who voted on both sides of you you know who voted on both sides of you you know who voted on both sides of the US election it's mostly an American the US election it's mostly an American the US election it's mostly an American audience here um don't just tune out audience here um don't just tune out audience here um don't just tune out because you heard a word here or think because you heard a word here or think because you heard a word here or think that somebody's coming to stroke your that somebody's coming to stroke your that somebody's coming to stroke your partisan side that's not what Mark and I partisan side that's not what Mark and I partisan side that's not what Mark and I are doing here we're just trying to are doing here we're just trying to are doing here we're just trying to understand the nature of the shift understand the nature of the shift understand the nature of the shift that's happening before our eyes so do that's happening before our eyes so do that's happening before our eyes so do you want to go there why is Trump's you want to go there why is Trump's you want to go there why is Trump's second presidency second presidency second presidency significant yeah yeah and I think it's significant yeah yeah and I think it's significant yeah yeah and I think it's that's a good point like I think you that's a good point like I think you that's a good point like I think you know for me as an Australian and and know for me as an Australian and and know for me as an Australian and and maybe as a Canadian we look at this maybe as a Canadian we look at this maybe as a Canadian we look at this differently you know you look at a differently you know you look at a differently you know you look at a country perhaps less which party you're country perhaps less which party you're country perhaps less which party you're part of because you're not part of them part of because you're not part of them part of because you're not part of them either um you know Trump one was a shock

either um you know Trump one was a shock either um you know Trump one was a shock um Trump got in and it was surprised I um Trump got in and it was surprised I um Trump got in and it was surprised I even think he was possibly surprised you even think he was possibly surprised you even think he was possibly surprised you know and um you know Trump 2 is a know and um you know Trump 2 is a know and um you know Trump 2 is a completely different uh entity uh Trump completely different uh entity uh Trump completely different uh entity uh Trump one you know the image of trump was sort one you know the image of trump was sort one you know the image of trump was sort of a chaotic White House um you know uh of a chaotic White House um you know uh of a chaotic White House um you know uh in a sense many parts of the Civil in a sense many parts of the Civil in a sense many parts of the Civil Service and and even his own sort of Service and and even his own sort of Service and and even his own sort of cabinet perhaps fighting him on things cabinet perhaps fighting him on things cabinet perhaps fighting him on things but really what we've seen is now it's but really what we've seen is now it's but really what we've seen is now it's not it's less about Trump which is not it's less about Trump which is not it's less about Trump which is something really fascinating about this something really fascinating about this something really fascinating about this this you're hearing J Vance you're this you're hearing J Vance you're this you're hearing J Vance you're hearing Marco Rubio Pete Heth Tulsi hearing Marco Rubio Pete Heth Tulsi hearing Marco Rubio Pete Heth Tulsi gabard gabard gabard RFK uh there is this complete I would RFK uh there is this complete I would RFK uh there is this complete I would call it a revolution of moving into the call it a revolution of moving into the call it a revolution of moving into the various government agencies and various government agencies and various government agencies and transform either sort of shutting them transform either sort of shutting them transform either sort of shutting them down and restarting again like you know down and restarting again like you know down and restarting again like you know USA USA USA um you know this talk of the IRS being um you know this talk of the IRS being um you know this talk of the IRS being shut down you know just stuff that would shut down you know just stuff that would shut down you know just stuff that would have been utterly unimaginable you know have been utterly unimaginable you know have been utterly unimaginable you know if he'd said this 5 years ago 12 months if he'd said this 5 years ago 12 months if he'd said this 5 years ago 12 months ago even in Washington so you know you ago even in Washington so you know you ago even in Washington so you know you can get a sort of like in Trump one it can get a sort of like in Trump one it can get a sort of like in Trump one it felt like oh the president got in will felt like oh the president got in will felt like oh the president got in will go through four years of of unusual go through four years of of unusual go through four years of of unusual times but then everything will click times but then everything will click times but then everything will click back because really government's about back because really government's about back because really government's about these institutions which Outlast these institutions which Outlast these institutions which Outlast presidencies is radically transforming presidencies is radically transforming presidencies is radically transforming institutions so you know what struck me institutions so you know what struck me institutions so you know what struck me about Trump 2 and you know you saw at about Trump 2 and you know you saw at about Trump 2 and you know you saw at the inauguration was you have the the inauguration was you have the the inauguration was you have the Pentagon power aligning now with Trump Pentagon power aligning now with Trump Pentagon power aligning now with Trump with pit heg and people being sacked uh

with pit heg and people being sacked uh with pit heg and people being sacked uh Wall Street swung around and a lot of Wall Street swung around and a lot of Wall Street swung around and a lot of the big you know like Wall Street the big you know like Wall Street the big you know like Wall Street figures got behind Trump so that's Wall figures got behind Trump so that's Wall figures got behind Trump so that's Wall Street power Silicon Valley which is Street power Silicon Valley which is Street power Silicon Valley which is probably one of the big plot twists you probably one of the big plot twists you probably one of the big plot twists you know swung from almost being know swung from almost being know swung from almost being oppositional to Trump to being at the oppositional to Trump to being at the oppositional to Trump to being at the front you know like senators and front you know like senators and front you know like senators and Congress people were moved back and they Congress people were moved back and they Congress people were moved back and they were sitting at the front you know Bezos were sitting at the front you know Bezos were sitting at the front you know Bezos and Zuckerberg and musk and these people and Zuckerberg and musk and these people and Zuckerberg and musk and these people the fact that musk is almost sort of I the fact that musk is almost sort of I the fact that musk is almost sort of I don't he's an Emin on Greece or sort of don't he's an Emin on Greece or sort of don't he's an Emin on Greece or sort of you know PR Regent in this in this you know PR Regent in this in this you know PR Regent in this in this Administration like I've never seen a Administration like I've never seen a Administration like I've never seen a sort of Citizen have power like this sort of Citizen have power like this sort of Citizen have power like this which is really interesting um and you which is really interesting um and you which is really interesting um and you know so you got all of these things plus know so you got all of these things plus know so you got all of these things plus the legislature that the republ I mean the legislature that the republ I mean the legislature that the republ I mean he hasn't got the whole obviously he hasn't got the whole obviously he hasn't got the whole obviously there's still Democrats uh in the there's still Democrats uh in the there's still Democrats uh in the legislature but the Republican party is legislature but the Republican party is legislature but the Republican party is his party now so I think we have to his party now so I think we have to his party now so I think we have to realize that this is an alignment of so realize that this is an alignment of so realize that this is an alignment of so many of the different institutions of many of the different institutions of many of the different institutions of power there's very little opposition to power there's very little opposition to power there's very little opposition to Trump and also even allies which Trump and also even allies which Trump and also even allies which formerly were you know Canada Australia formerly were you know Canada Australia formerly were you know Canada Australia all of a sudden we're asking the all of a sudden we're asking the all of a sudden we're asking the questions where where do we fit into questions where where do we fit into questions where where do we fit into this so this is or do we exactly exactly this so this is or do we exactly exactly this so this is or do we exactly exactly um you know this is just a radical um you know this is just a radical um you know this is just a radical reshaping of the political order at reshaping of the political order at reshaping of the political order at every level and that flows down into the every level and that flows down into the every level and that flows down into the culture you know one thing I've been culture you know one thing I've been culture you know one thing I've been saying I I started you know in my early saying I I started you know in my early saying I I started you know in my early 20s at a at a Christian Culture magazine 20s at a at a Christian Culture magazine 20s at a at a Christian Culture magazine here in Australia and we'd write about here in Australia and we'd write about here in Australia and we'd write about that Beasty Boys album and that concert that Beasty Boys album and that concert that Beasty Boys album and that concert and that movie and I'd go and write and that movie and I'd go and write and that movie and I'd go and write stuff about movies and I'd go to movie stuff about movies and I'd go to movie stuff about movies and I'd go to movie pre premieres and stuff like this and

pre premieres and stuff like this and pre premieres and stuff like this and and almost at the time I felt like H and almost at the time I felt like H and almost at the time I felt like H it's these cultural things which shape it's these cultural things which shape it's these cultural things which shape the culture you know that album that the culture you know that album that the culture you know that album that fashion trend on the street but I think fashion trend on the street but I think fashion trend on the street but I think now I realized that no it's actually the now I realized that no it's actually the now I realized that no it's actually the trickle down of these big changes which trickle down of these big changes which trickle down of these big changes which reshape the culture um Silicon Valley reshape the culture um Silicon Valley reshape the culture um Silicon Valley coming behind us is is going to is coming behind us is is going to is coming behind us is is going to is already totally changing the culture so already totally changing the culture so already totally changing the culture so that's what's very different this time that's what's very different this time that's what's very different this time and the speed of of achieving things and and the speed of of achieving things and and the speed of of achieving things and really I mean we may come up with this really I mean we may come up with this really I mean we may come up with this talk about this more it's the Silicon talk about this more it's the Silicon talk about this more it's the Silicon Valley mantra for a long time has been Valley mantra for a long time has been Valley mantra for a long time has been move fast and break things when're now move fast and break things when're now move fast and break things when're now seeing that in government and that's seeing that in government and that's seeing that in government and that's totally new Democrats Republicans have totally new Democrats Republicans have totally new Democrats Republicans have always been about reform really with always been about reform really with always been about reform really with government institutions slow change over government institutions slow change over government institutions slow change over time uh that's out the window now so time uh that's out the window now so time uh that's out the window now so this is going to be an incredibly con this is going to be an incredibly con this is going to be an incredibly con sequential world changing sequential world changing sequential world changing presidency it's sometimes hard to see it presidency it's sometimes hard to see it presidency it's sometimes hard to see it in the moment mark because you kind of in the moment mark because you kind of in the moment mark because you kind of look at it and the way you frame it is look at it and the way you frame it is look at it and the way you frame it is interesting like people could see 2016 interesting like people could see 2016 interesting like people could see 2016 to 2020 as an aberration he won once now to 2020 as an aberration he won once now to 2020 as an aberration he won once now it's back to normal but what you're it's back to normal but what you're it's back to normal but what you're seeing is an acceleration and I've heard seeing is an acceleration and I've heard seeing is an acceleration and I've heard you on your own show use language like you on your own show use language like you on your own show use language like this is semi feudal semi um Hunter you this is semi feudal semi um Hunter you this is semi feudal semi um Hunter you know like a like a revolution like a know like a like a revolution like a know like a like a revolution like a coup almost a little bit can you coup almost a little bit can you coup almost a little bit can you describe that a little bit more because describe that a little bit more because describe that a little bit more because I think you're right uh the president is I think you're right uh the president is I think you're right uh the president is holding court and many have come to the holding court and many have come to the holding court and many have come to the court whether that's mural Lago or court whether that's mural Lago or court whether that's mural Lago or whether that's the White House um just

whether that's the White House um just whether that's the White House um just so and again the goal here is just to so and again the goal here is just to so and again the goal here is just to understand because when you're in it understand because when you're in it understand because when you're in it like you know having a degree in history like you know having a degree in history like you know having a degree in history a 100 years from now historians are if a 100 years from now historians are if a 100 years from now historians are if there is a 100 years from now uh are there is a 100 years from now uh are there is a 100 years from now uh are going to look back and go oh this is going to look back and go oh this is going to look back and go oh this is what happened kind of like the Great what happened kind of like the Great what happened kind of like the Great Depression in FDR the Civil War in the Depression in FDR the Civil War in the Depression in FDR the Civil War in the United States the American Revolution United States the American Revolution United States the American Revolution you know the founding of Canada uh key you know the founding of Canada uh key you know the founding of Canada uh key moments in in world history that kind of moments in in world history that kind of moments in in world history that kind of stuff and you know when you're in it you stuff and you know when you're in it you stuff and you know when you're in it you don't really know what's happening don't really know what's happening don't really know what's happening because there's so much smoke so much because there's so much smoke so much because there's so much smoke so much dust so much debris and you're like I'm dust so much debris and you're like I'm dust so much debris and you're like I'm just going to watch Netflix tonight I just going to watch Netflix tonight I just going to watch Netflix tonight I can't keep up so I want to frame it what can't keep up so I want to frame it what can't keep up so I want to frame it what what is going on with the massive what is going on with the massive what is going on with the massive reframing of the executive and power Etc reframing of the executive and power Etc reframing of the executive and power Etc yeah yeah so like when um you know yeah yeah so like when um you know yeah yeah so like when um you know America was founded it was one of the America was founded it was one of the America was founded it was one of the few republics in the world in a world of few republics in the world in a world of few republics in the world in a world of kings and queens and there was always kings and queens and there was always kings and queens and there was always this sort of uncomfortability you know this sort of uncomfortability you know this sort of uncomfortability you know early on they were like asking the early on they were like asking the early on they were like asking the question do we call the president his question do we call the president his question do we call the president his majesty you know because if they're majesty you know because if they're majesty you know because if they're going to go and meet with that King and going to go and meet with that King and going to go and meet with that King and in in in diplomacy um and other kings just were diplomacy um and other kings just were diplomacy um and other kings just were looking down on the American president looking down on the American president looking down on the American president because I were seen as a commoner um you because I were seen as a commoner um you because I were seen as a commoner um you know and that meant that the American know and that meant that the American know and that meant that the American system that the president had more system that the president had more system that the president had more executive power than say the Australian executive power than say the Australian executive power than say the Australian prime minister or the Canadian prime prime minister or the Canadian prime prime minister or the Canadian prime minister uh you know the British minister uh you know the British minister uh you know the British tradition comes that there's sort of you tradition comes that there's sort of you tradition comes that there's sort of you know the the British you know kills the know the the British you know kills the know the the British you know kills the king you know Charles the was executed king you know Charles the was executed king you know Charles the was executed and so there's a lot more restraint on and so there's a lot more restraint on and so there's a lot more restraint on the leader of our respective countries the leader of our respective countries the leader of our respective countries compared to the US but the sort of

compared to the US but the sort of compared to the US but the sort of protocol has been in the US of even protocol has been in the US of even protocol has been in the US of even though the executive has that smart though the executive has that smart though the executive has that smart power you know they still allow the power you know they still allow the power you know they still allow the legislature to be sort of the voice of legislature to be sort of the voice of legislature to be sort of the voice of the people um so despite having the people um so despite having the people um so despite having tremendous executive power it's not tremendous executive power it's not tremendous executive power it's not always exercised that's a political Norm always exercised that's a political Norm always exercised that's a political Norm now there was moment you know time save now there was moment you know time save now there was moment you know time save for example during the both world wars for example during the both world wars for example during the both world wars um during the um Great Depression you um during the um Great Depression you um during the um Great Depression you know FDR did a lot of executive power know FDR did a lot of executive power know FDR did a lot of executive power and it was almost his sort of rationale and it was almost his sort of rationale and it was almost his sort of rationale was unless I do this we're going to turn was unless I do this we're going to turn was unless I do this we're going to turn like Germany you know because of the like Germany you know because of the like Germany you know because of the effects of the the Great Depression into effects of the the Great Depression into effects of the the Great Depression into nais they saw what was happening in nais they saw what was happening in nais they saw what was happening in Italy they saw what had happened in Italy they saw what had happened in Italy they saw what had happened in Soviet Union um and it was of this idea Soviet Union um and it was of this idea Soviet Union um and it was of this idea we'll exercise some executive power but we'll exercise some executive power but we'll exercise some executive power but we're doing this in order for a little we're doing this in order for a little we're doing this in order for a little period it's a it's a pause and we'll period it's a it's a pause and we'll period it's a it's a pause and we'll return to some normality um and return to some normality um and return to some normality um and interestingly conservatives have defined interestingly conservatives have defined interestingly conservatives have defined themselves against that like like any themselves against that like like any themselves against that like like any conservatives FDR is sort of like this conservatives FDR is sort of like this conservatives FDR is sort of like this figure who centralized government made figure who centralized government made figure who centralized government made government too big and created this government too big and created this government too big and created this welfare state which had to be sort of welfare state which had to be sort of welfare state which had to be sort of like wound back because of the fear of like wound back because of the fear of like wound back because of the fear of centralized government um but what we're centralized government um but what we're centralized government um but what we're seeing is just an incredible flexing of seeing is just an incredible flexing of seeing is just an incredible flexing of the executive uh you know office here in the executive uh you know office here in the executive uh you know office here in the United States and you know there's the United States and you know there's the United States and you know there's this moment when um yeah I said on my this moment when um yeah I said on my this moment when um yeah I said on my show and what struck me it was less a show and what struck me it was less a show and what struck me it was less a political event as it was Trump political event as it was Trump political event as it was Trump appearing at the UFC and you know if you appearing at the UFC and you know if you appearing at the UFC and you know if you think about the UFC's this sort of mixed think about the UFC's this sort of mixed think about the UFC's this sort of mixed martial arts fighting and you know he martial arts fighting and you know he martial arts fighting and you know he came out and it was a packed Arena and came out and it was a packed Arena and came out and it was a packed Arena and everyone was cheering and he came out everyone was cheering and he came out everyone was cheering and he came out and he sort of had his Entourage around and he sort of had his Entourage around and he sort of had his Entourage around him and it's like Kid Rock was there and him and it's like Kid Rock was there and him and it's like Kid Rock was there and Elon Musk and you know these are not

Elon Musk and you know these are not Elon Musk and you know these are not your normal political figures I think your normal political figures I think your normal political figures I think Mike Johnson the speaker was there but Mike Johnson the speaker was there but Mike Johnson the speaker was there but he he looked completely out of place he he looked completely out of place he he looked completely out of place this massive sort of buffed up guy and this massive sort of buffed up guy and this massive sort of buffed up guy and and then you know came and he hugged Joe and then you know came and he hugged Joe and then you know came and he hugged Joe Rogan and and when um I can't remember Rogan and and when um I can't remember Rogan and and when um I can't remember the guy who won but the guy who won the the guy who won but the guy who won the the guy who won but the guy who won the fight was you know an American fighter fight was you know an American fighter fight was you know an American fighter and he sort of gave his belt to Trump and he sort of gave his belt to Trump and he sort of gave his belt to Trump and it was and it I looked at this I'm and it was and it I looked at this I'm and it was and it I looked at this I'm trying like in all my understanding of trying like in all my understanding of trying like in all my understanding of political Norms I have no framework for political Norms I have no framework for political Norms I have no framework for this in anything I've seen in my this in anything I've seen in my this in anything I've seen in my lifetime the framework was not even lifetime the framework was not even lifetime the framework was not even something 20th century it felt medieval something 20th century it felt medieval something 20th century it felt medieval you know this was like the king coming you know this was like the king coming you know this was like the king coming down in a jousting tournament you know down in a jousting tournament you know down in a jousting tournament you know with his his sort of you know his with his his sort of you know his with his his sort of you know his Warriors around him and and you know uh Warriors around him and and you know uh Warriors around him and and you know uh it sort of felt feudal and you know I it sort of felt feudal and you know I it sort of felt feudal and you know I know it's lot people got a fight but I know it's lot people got a fight but I know it's lot people got a fight but I think there's something Sim symbolic in think there's something Sim symbolic in think there's something Sim symbolic in that in the cultural change that's going that in the cultural change that's going that in the cultural change that's going on and so this is this is a more King on and so this is this is a more King on and so this is this is a more King likee and even yesterday um I know we're likee and even yesterday um I know we're likee and even yesterday um I know we're not time bound with the the podcast here not time bound with the the podcast here not time bound with the the podcast here but the White House sort of trolling put but the White House sort of trolling put but the White House sort of trolling put out a picture as obviously AI but it was out a picture as obviously AI but it was out a picture as obviously AI but it was Time Magazine um and I think it was long Time Magazine um and I think it was long Time Magazine um and I think it was long live the king of of President Trump with live the king of of President Trump with live the king of of President Trump with a king's crown on at like a oil painting a king's crown on at like a oil painting a king's crown on at like a oil painting out you know front of New York so there out you know front of New York so there out you know front of New York so there is this definite sort of like you know is this definite sort of like you know is this definite sort of like you know political nrum that's always been in the political nrum that's always been in the political nrum that's always been in the United States is is the president like a United States is is the president like a United States is is the president like a king and I think that's actually king and I think that's actually king and I think that's actually bubbling up that's a contradiction in bubbling up that's a contradiction in bubbling up that's a contradiction in the American system that's that bubbled the American system that's that bubbled the American system that's that bubbled up in this moment you know so uh that up in this moment you know so uh that up in this moment you know so uh that political Norm of not exercising that political Norm of not exercising that political Norm of not exercising that power was gone and that just extremely power was gone and that just extremely power was gone and that just extremely strong exercising executive power is

strong exercising executive power is strong exercising executive power is reshaping things faster the reason it reshaping things faster the reason it reshaping things faster the reason it feels so fast is because of the power feels so fast is because of the power feels so fast is because of the power flexing of that whereas previously flexing of that whereas previously flexing of that whereas previously things had to move through the legisl things had to move through the legisl things had to move through the legisl and and civil service and it felt things and and civil service and it felt things and and civil service and it felt things were slower so again this is just a were slower so again this is just a were slower so again this is just a radical radical radical shift yeah and you know Trump made that shift yeah and you know Trump made that shift yeah and you know Trump made that comment to Christians during the comment to Christians during the comment to Christians during the election campaign where he says vote for election campaign where he says vote for election campaign where he says vote for me you'll never have to worry about this me you'll never have to worry about this me you'll never have to worry about this again do you read anything into that or again do you read anything into that or again do you read anything into that or I mean it's one of those things where a I mean it's one of those things where a I mean it's one of those things where a lot of my American friends are saying lot of my American friends are saying lot of my American friends are saying read the art of the deal this is what read the art of the deal this is what read the art of the deal this is what he's doing he's just being very chaotic he's doing he's just being very chaotic he's doing he's just being very chaotic and then he goes after like that's the and then he goes after like that's the and then he goes after like that's the position on Canada it's like we're just position on Canada it's like we're just position on Canada it's like we're just going to threaten threaten threaten blow going to threaten threaten threaten blow going to threaten threaten threaten blow everything up but what I really want is everything up but what I really want is everything up but what I really want is this and then you'll give it to me any this and then you'll give it to me any this and then you'll give it to me any thoughts on what's going on just so that thoughts on what's going on just so that thoughts on what's going on just so that we're aware of what might be shifting we're aware of what might be shifting we're aware of what might be shifting before our eyes yeah so I have read out before our eyes yeah so I have read out before our eyes yeah so I have read out of the deal and um I have not um what of the deal and um I have not um what of the deal and um I have not um what what I noticed is someone who yes is a what I noticed is someone who yes is a what I noticed is someone who yes is a dealmaker is very instinctive doesn't dealmaker is very instinctive doesn't dealmaker is very instinctive doesn't read books um does that but also in that read books um does that but also in that read books um does that but also in that and again too this is not you know like and again too this is not you know like and again too this is not you know like also talks about you know plotting to also talks about you know plotting to also talks about you know plotting to you know uh commit adultery you know you know uh commit adultery you know you know uh commit adultery you know what I mean as part you know so there is what I mean as part you know so there is what I mean as part you know so there is a an element where there is yes that's a an element where there is yes that's a an element where there is yes that's true but there's also a deceitfulness in true but there's also a deceitfulness in true but there's also a deceitfulness in elements of this this approach which is elements of this this approach which is elements of this this approach which is very different but I think again this very different but I think again this very different but I think again this this is what I'm saying my sense is if this is what I'm saying my sense is if this is what I'm saying my sense is if Trump all of a sudden you know came to Trump all of a sudden you know came to Trump all of a sudden you know came to you know disappeared out of the picture

you know disappeared out of the picture you know disappeared out of the picture I think this goes on this is a political I think this goes on this is a political I think this goes on this is a political movement that we got to ask is why is movement that we got to ask is why is movement that we got to ask is why is this happening in other countries you this happening in other countries you this happening in other countries you know and more what I've been doing is know and more what I've been doing is know and more what I've been doing is less I think that's Trump one thinking less I think that's Trump one thinking less I think that's Trump one thinking Trump presidency one thinking but you Trump presidency one thinking but you Trump presidency one thinking but you look at the worldview of J Vance you look at the worldview of J Vance you look at the worldview of J Vance you look at the worldview of Pete hexi you look at the worldview of Pete hexi you look at the worldview of Pete hexi you look at the worldview of some of the look at the worldview of some of the look at the worldview of some of the people behind the scenes who are the you people behind the scenes who are the you people behind the scenes who are the you know what I'm doing is I'm reading oh know what I'm doing is I'm reading oh know what I'm doing is I'm reading oh that policy paper that person read or that policy paper that person read or that policy paper that person read or that article they read about the that article they read about the that article they read about the importance of that Northern passage importance of that Northern passage importance of that Northern passage above Canada when global warming happens above Canada when global warming happens above Canada when global warming happens and China's going to take that unless we and China's going to take that unless we and China's going to take that unless we do so we're going to take Canada so do so we're going to take Canada so do so we're going to take Canada so there's a lot of geostrategic political there's a lot of geostrategic political there's a lot of geostrategic political economic thinking um you know at H and economic thinking um you know at H and economic thinking um you know at H and it's really interesting one of the it's really interesting one of the it's really interesting one of the things I pointed out to see the differ things I pointed out to see the differ things I pointed out to see the differ between Trump one and Trump two is the between Trump one and Trump two is the between Trump one and Trump two is the growing concern of Steve Bannon and I growing concern of Steve Bannon and I growing concern of Steve Bannon and I actually think there's two Wings within actually think there's two Wings within actually think there's two Wings within trumpism you've got a Steve Bannon Wing trumpism you've got a Steve Bannon Wing trumpism you've got a Steve Bannon Wing which is Trump one which is economic which is Trump one which is economic which is Trump one which is economic populism we're concerned about the populism we're concerned about the populism we're concerned about the Pennsylvania white working class who've Pennsylvania white working class who've Pennsylvania white working class who've lost their jobs because of globalization lost their jobs because of globalization lost their jobs because of globalization so let's get our man in the White House so let's get our man in the White House so let's get our man in the White House vers with Trump 2 turbo America um you vers with Trump 2 turbo America um you vers with Trump 2 turbo America um you know uh we need Canada because we need know uh we need Canada because we need know uh we need Canada because we need her power because we're going to build her power because we're going to build her power because we're going to build an AI superstate and you know we're an AI superstate and you know we're an AI superstate and you know we're going to control the Western Hemisphere going to control the Western Hemisphere going to control the Western Hemisphere and we're going to get people to Mars and we're going to get people to Mars and we're going to get people to Mars and silicon is be part of that and Wall and silicon is be part of that and Wall and silicon is be part of that and Wall Street there's actually two visions Street there's actually two visions Street there's actually two visions within trumpism now so partially what within trumpism now so partially what within trumpism now so partially what I've said to people is the culture wars I've said to people is the culture wars I've said to people is the culture wars we've known is over but we're entering we've known is over but we're entering we've known is over but we're entering into a new culture War which is a into a new culture War which is a into a new culture War which is a polarization within trumpism and that's polarization within trumpism and that's polarization within trumpism and that's not fully formed yet but it's happening not fully formed yet but it's happening not fully formed yet but it's happening at an elite level and that's going to at an elite level and that's going to at an elite level and that's going to trickle down you have another thesis

trickle down you have another thesis trickle down you have another thesis which I'd like to explore you argue that which I'd like to explore you argue that which I'd like to explore you argue that 2024 is the year that perhaps woke broke 2024 is the year that perhaps woke broke 2024 is the year that perhaps woke broke can you unpack that for us mark did wake can you unpack that for us mark did wake can you unpack that for us mark did wake woke broke did woke break that's what woke broke did woke break that's what woke broke did woke break that's what I'm trying to say and if so why how like I'm trying to say and if so why how like I'm trying to say and if so why how like what's going on yeah so you know we saw what's going on yeah so you know we saw what's going on yeah so you know we saw the emergence in 20 I mean you could the emergence in 20 I mean you could the emergence in 20 I mean you could trace it back but really what it was was trace it back but really what it was was trace it back but really what it was was a sort of popular version of you know a sort of popular version of you know a sort of popular version of you know you could trace it back to French you could trace it back to French you could trace it back to French critical theory post-marxism um but in a critical theory post-marxism um but in a critical theory post-marxism um but in a very popular form um you know which very popular form um you know which very popular form um you know which entered into the culture and you know entered into the culture and you know entered into the culture and you know other people like the philosopher John other people like the philosopher John other people like the philosopher John Gray would say it was hyper liberalism Gray would say it was hyper liberalism Gray would say it was hyper liberalism you know so you go back to when America you know so you go back to when America you know so you go back to when America um emerges as the sole power in the um emerges as the sole power in the um emerges as the sole power in the world um after the the fall of the the world um after the the fall of the the world um after the the fall of the the Soviet Union and you know all of a Soviet Union and you know all of a Soviet Union and you know all of a sudden has Global dominance you you have sudden has Global dominance you you have sudden has Global dominance you you have this first phase which is sort of you this first phase which is sort of you this first phase which is sort of you know George Bush you know bringing you know George Bush you know bringing you know George Bush you know bringing you know in his in his mind democracy to know in his in his mind democracy to know in his in his mind democracy to places like Iraq and you know Adan places like Iraq and you know Adan places like Iraq and you know Adan advancing American uh sort of values in advancing American uh sort of values in advancing American uh sort of values in the world but then as you know time goes the world but then as you know time goes the world but then as you know time goes on it's like the liberal part of that on it's like the liberal part of that on it's like the liberal part of that becomes even more hyper so we go from becomes even more hyper so we go from becomes even more hyper so we go from like um you know sort of advancing sort like um you know sort of advancing sort like um you know sort of advancing sort of liberal values to advancing you know of liberal values to advancing you know of liberal values to advancing you know what people would call the sort of woke what people would call the sort of woke what people would call the sort of woke values and increasing emphasis on values and increasing emphasis on values and increasing emphasis on identity politics and it's less about identity politics and it's less about identity politics and it's less about you know I say to people it's less about you know I say to people it's less about you know I say to people it's less about the go like the this this strategy and the go like the this this strategy and the go like the this this strategy and tactics you know so you may have tactics you know so you may have tactics you know so you may have strategy of ending racism or or you know

strategy of ending racism or or you know strategy of ending racism or or you know ending sexism but the tactics of this ending sexism but the tactics of this ending sexism but the tactics of this was to do that in a particular way which was to do that in a particular way which was to do that in a particular way which is to have a particular moral Vision is to have a particular moral Vision is to have a particular moral Vision that in the world there were sort of that in the world there were sort of that in the world there were sort of these micro powers and these micro these micro powers and these micro these micro powers and these micro Powers had to be rooted out and they Powers had to be rooted out and they Powers had to be rooted out and they could be that having that particular could be that having that particular could be that having that particular dish of food is a form of cultural dish of food is a form of cultural dish of food is a form of cultural appropriation and that must be removed appropriation and that must be removed appropriation and that must be removed or you know that Marvel movie must have or you know that Marvel movie must have or you know that Marvel movie must have this particular representation so it's this particular representation so it's this particular representation so it's sort of you know interesting sort a sort of you know interesting sort a sort of you know interesting sort a leftwing commentator yesterday who's you leftwing commentator yesterday who's you leftwing commentator yesterday who's you know very Pro anti ending racism you know very Pro anti ending racism you know very Pro anti ending racism you know ending poverty ending sexism say know ending poverty ending sexism say know ending poverty ending sexism say that basically we tactically got it that basically we tactically got it that basically we tactically got it wrong that all this is done is created a wrong that all this is done is created a wrong that all this is done is created a massive backlash and we still need to massive backlash and we still need to massive backlash and we still need to both of those goals yet the way we were both of those goals yet the way we were both of those goals yet the way we were trying to get there was wrong and trying to get there was wrong and trying to get there was wrong and actually counterproductive and that all actually counterproductive and that all actually counterproductive and that all these focus on things like she made the these focus on things like she made the these focus on things like she made the argument that all this focus on like you argument that all this focus on like you argument that all this focus on like you know structural racism it didn't change know structural racism it didn't change know structural racism it didn't change structural racism at all it just like structural racism at all it just like structural racism at all it just like changed some TV shows and advertisements changed some TV shows and advertisements changed some TV shows and advertisements and stuff like this and created a and stuff like this and created a and stuff like this and created a backlash so you know bring that that backlash so you know bring that that backlash so you know bring that that comes in that that that sort of values comes in that that that sort of values comes in that that that sort of values is embraced by first really you know is embraced by first really you know is embraced by first really you know soing the popular culture on the soing the popular culture on the soing the popular culture on the internet you know have things like gamer internet you know have things like gamer internet you know have things like gamer gauge which was a battle in the gaming gauge which was a battle in the gaming gauge which was a battle in the gaming world around female representation but world around female representation but world around female representation but that's where Council culture and this that's where Council culture and this that's where Council culture and this sort of stuff takes off spreads into the sort of stuff takes off spreads into the sort of stuff takes off spreads into the culture is taken by culture is taken by culture is taken by corporates is adopted by Silicon Valley corporates is adopted by Silicon Valley corporates is adopted by Silicon Valley um and you know then goes into you know um and you know then goes into you know um and you know then goes into you know HR Departments of of you know big HR Departments of of you know big HR Departments of of you know big corporations and local government and corporations and local government and corporations and local government and then government and that spreads all then government and that spreads all then government and that spreads all across the world particularly with

across the world particularly with across the world particularly with emanating out of the United States and emanating out of the United States and emanating out of the United States and despite its presence in your country and despite its presence in your country and despite its presence in your country and mine I don't think it would be in your mine I don't think it would be in your mine I don't think it would be in your country and mine if the United States country and mine if the United States country and mine if the United States didn't exist if that makes fair oh yeah didn't exist if that makes fair oh yeah didn't exist if that makes fair oh yeah we're an echo yeah yeah Echo the culture we're an echo yeah yeah Echo the culture we're an echo yeah yeah Echo the culture you know and um but then something you know and um but then something you know and um but then something happens you know I think there was happens you know I think there was happens you know I think there was already a backlash people were already already a backlash people were already already a backlash people were already talking about this there was frustration talking about this there was frustration talking about this there was frustration happening and there was sort of a happening and there was sort of a happening and there was sort of a traditionalist backlash against it traditionalist backlash against it traditionalist backlash against it emerging in certain places Trump won emerging in certain places Trump won emerging in certain places Trump won presidency W was a backlash against that presidency W was a backlash against that presidency W was a backlash against that but then what happens um I I think what but then what happens um I I think what but then what happens um I I think what was astounding is the Elites for was astounding is the Elites for was astounding is the Elites for whatever better term to call them or the whatever better term to call them or the whatever better term to call them or the people who currently in power we can people who currently in power we can people who currently in power we can Define that a bit more I would Define Define that a bit more I would Define Define that a bit more I would Define them as neoliberals so in other words them as neoliberals so in other words them as neoliberals so in other words that's people who believe in a free that's people who believe in a free that's people who believe in a free market but liberal democracy but Nancy I market but liberal democracy but Nancy I market but liberal democracy but Nancy I think it's nanc phaser calls them think it's nanc phaser calls them think it's nanc phaser calls them Progressive neoliberals so they were Progressive neoliberals so they were Progressive neoliberals so they were people who were actually economically people who were actually economically people who were actually economically right but quite left in their social right but quite left in their social right but quite left in their social values in terms around gender and values in terms around gender and values in terms around gender and sexuality etc etc less interested in sexuality etc etc less interested in sexuality etc etc less interested in helping poor workingclass people or the helping poor workingclass people or the helping poor workingclass people or the homeless necessarily but you know homeless necessarily but you know homeless necessarily but you know particular identity issues and then what particular identity issues and then what particular identity issues and then what you have is a complete misreading of you have is a complete misreading of you have is a complete misreading of that Elites of what was happening in the that Elites of what was happening in the that Elites of what was happening in the popular so the Trump election result is popular so the Trump election result is popular so the Trump election result is just this catastrophic flow you know the just this catastrophic flow you know the just this catastrophic flow you know the predictions uh again were completely predictions uh again were completely predictions uh again were completely wrong yeah the predictions were you know wrong yeah the predictions were you know wrong yeah the predictions were you know 50.1 to 49.9 and that didn't happen and 50.1 to 49.9 and that didn't happen and 50.1 to 49.9 and that didn't happen and and you saw a swing as we call it in

and you saw a swing as we call it in and you saw a swing as we call it in Australia a move towards the Republicans Australia a move towards the Republicans Australia a move towards the Republicans in almost every single demographic even in almost every single demographic even in almost every single demographic even in in in Democratic states almost every in in in Democratic states almost every in in in Democratic states almost every single demographic um one of the best single demographic um one of the best single demographic um one of the best results amongst you know different results amongst you know different results amongst you know different minorities like it it was shocking and I minorities like it it was shocking and I minorities like it it was shocking and I was shocked at the extent of it I had was shocked at the extent of it I had was shocked at the extent of it I had this funny intuitive sense that it might this funny intuitive sense that it might this funny intuitive sense that it might happen but even my rational brain was happen but even my rational brain was happen but even my rational brain was you know pushing down because you know you know pushing down because you know you know pushing down because you know was reading these these analysis so what was reading these these analysis so what was reading these these analysis so what happens is that happens and you see so happens is that happens and you see so happens is that happens and you see so quickly a realignment of power um you quickly a realignment of power um you quickly a realignment of power um you know so a few things so number one if know so a few things so number one if know so a few things so number one if how how has this new moral order how how has this new moral order how how has this new moral order continued number one it's going to be continued number one it's going to be continued number one it's going to be political or that just changed you know political or that just changed you know political or that just changed you know the electorate voted against it number the electorate voted against it number the electorate voted against it number two um it's going to be corporately held two um it's going to be corporately held two um it's going to be corporately held the corporate big businesses of the the corporate big businesses of the the corporate big businesses of the world from your big investment firms to world from your big investment firms to world from your big investment firms to big companies who had Dei initiatives big companies who had Dei initiatives big companies who had Dei initiatives all of a sudden that all goes so that all of a sudden that all goes so that all of a sudden that all goes so that means what that means for you know I say means what that means for you know I say means what that means for you know I say this in Australia what that means is this in Australia what that means is this in Australia what that means is there was an article here in our local there was an article here in our local there was an article here in our local Financial paper that McKenzie the local Financial paper that McKenzie the local Financial paper that McKenzie the local branch of McKenzie Consultants had branch of McKenzie Consultants had branch of McKenzie Consultants had removed de staff why because in New York removed de staff why because in New York removed de staff why because in New York they would have removed it so there's they would have removed it so there's they would have removed it so there's this trickle down that eventually in this trickle down that eventually in this trickle down that eventually in Canada and Australia and all over the Canada and Australia and all over the Canada and Australia and all over the world that stuff is going to stop so the world that stuff is going to stop so the world that stuff is going to stop so the corporates are backing away from it but corporates are backing away from it but corporates are backing away from it but then the third thing is that so much of then the third thing is that so much of then the third thing is that so much of this was also continued sort of propped this was also continued sort of propped this was also continued sort of propped up by Silicon Valley the algorithms of up by Silicon Valley the algorithms of up by Silicon Valley the algorithms of Silicon Valley you've seen X go from Silicon Valley you've seen X go from Silicon Valley you've seen X go from Jack dorsy to musk so that's changed X Jack dorsy to musk so that's changed X Jack dorsy to musk so that's changed X um Zuckerberg has had this come to Trump um Zuckerberg has had this come to Trump um Zuckerberg has had this come to Trump moment you know and even he sort of said

moment you know and even he sort of said moment you know and even he sort of said in his little video about this he said in his little video about this he said in his little video about this he said you know previously we've stopped you know previously we've stopped you know previously we've stopped discussion about things like immigration discussion about things like immigration discussion about things like immigration or gender we're not going to do that or gender we're not going to do that or gender we're not going to do that anymore translation the algorithm was anymore translation the algorithm was anymore translation the algorithm was pushed this way we're now going to twist pushed this way we're now going to twist pushed this way we're now going to twist it back um you know so you're seeing it back um you know so you're seeing it back um you know so you're seeing even Tik Tok now is is changing so even Tik Tok now is is changing so even Tik Tok now is is changing so you've seen the things which were you've seen the things which were you've seen the things which were propping this up business government propping this up business government propping this up business government technology are now switching back so technology are now switching back so technology are now switching back so that means to hold sort of work that means to hold sort of work that means to hold sort of work positions for one of the better the positions for one of the better the positions for one of the better the social benefits are gone the supporting social benefits are gone the supporting social benefits are gone the supporting structures are gone and it's going to be structures are gone and it's going to be structures are gone and it's going to be you know really hard and there's also a you know really hard and there's also a you know really hard and there's also a sense you know as much as people might sense you know as much as people might sense you know as much as people might go have the Democrats learn I'll tell go have the Democrats learn I'll tell go have the Democrats learn I'll tell you now across leftwing parties across you now across leftwing parties across you now across leftwing parties across the world are having behind doors the world are having behind doors the world are having behind doors meetings saying this stuff is killing us meetings saying this stuff is killing us meetings saying this stuff is killing us we have to Pivot and reinvent so that's we have to Pivot and reinvent so that's we have to Pivot and reinvent so that's my sort of overarching case why woke my sort of overarching case why woke my sort of overarching case why woke broke in 2024 why do you think because I mean 2024 why do you think because I mean when you study history generally you when you study history generally you when you study history generally you know an era takes a generation you look know an era takes a generation you look know an era takes a generation you look for example the difference between the for example the difference between the for example the difference between the end of the second world war the 50s and end of the second world war the 50s and end of the second world war the 50s and then the 60s where you have sort of the then the 60s where you have sort of the then the 60s where you have sort of the hippie rock and roll protest movement hippie rock and roll protest movement hippie rock and roll protest movement come on that's a decade 20 years in the come on that's a decade 20 years in the come on that's a decade 20 years in the making this is making this is making this is months so i' i' I'd love for you to months so i' i' I'd love for you to months so i' i' I'd love for you to comment on the comment on the comment on the speed I think that one of the main speed I think that one of the main speed I think that one of the main reasons for the speed is the internet

reasons for the speed is the internet reasons for the speed is the internet and you know you think again to like and you know you think again to like and you know you think again to like making an album you know just so there's making an album you know just so there's making an album you know just so there's a generation defining album to be made a generation defining album to be made a generation defining album to be made in in in 1968 it's going to take you a year or 1968 it's going to take you a year or 1968 it's going to take you a year or two years you know from conception to two years you know from conception to two years you know from conception to production to getting that thing out production to getting that thing out production to getting that thing out touring getting it into the charts touring getting it into the charts touring getting it into the charts getting it into the culture a book a getting it into the culture a book a getting it into the culture a book a similar processes so the speed of change similar processes so the speed of change similar processes so the speed of change was much slower but what we have now is was much slower but what we have now is was much slower but what we have now is This Global interconnected brain really This Global interconnected brain really This Global interconnected brain really that um which also some people in wait that um which also some people in wait that um which also some people in wait for that to speed up you know this one for that to speed up you know this one for that to speed up you know this one of musk's Visions um uh so I think of musk's Visions um uh so I think of musk's Visions um uh so I think that's that's what's happening the other that's that's what's happening the other that's that's what's happening the other thing I would add to is the West is in a thing I would add to is the West is in a thing I would add to is the West is in a very weak position at the moment it very weak position at the moment it very weak position at the moment it realizes it's all of a sudden in a great realizes it's all of a sudden in a great realizes it's all of a sudden in a great power competition with China so power competition with China so power competition with China so America's in a great power competition America's in a great power competition America's in a great power competition with China and the reason Silicon Valley with China and the reason Silicon Valley with China and the reason Silicon Valley switches I think anti-work is not switches I think anti-work is not switches I think anti-work is not because all of a sudden they've become because all of a sudden they've become because all of a sudden they've become traditionalists it's because they began traditionalists it's because they began traditionalists it's because they began to start to ask the question is is all to start to ask the question is is all to start to ask the question is is all these initiatives and these you know these initiatives and these you know these initiatives and these you know employee backlashes against that issue employee backlashes against that issue employee backlashes against that issue is this slowing down our ability to is this slowing down our ability to is this slowing down our ability to compete with China that's I think the de compete with China that's I think the de compete with China that's I think the de decisive thing so there was this decisive thing so there was this decisive thing so there was this realization Silicon Valley the last realization Silicon Valley the last realization Silicon Valley the last couple years like this is killing us you couple years like this is killing us you couple years like this is killing us you know like I think it was Jamie Diamond know like I think it was Jamie Diamond know like I think it was Jamie Diamond um uh I think it's JP Morgan you know um uh I think it's JP Morgan you know um uh I think it's JP Morgan you know there was a leaked I think it was him there was a leaked I think it was him there was a leaked I think it was him there was a leaked thing of him talking there was a leaked thing of him talking there was a leaked thing of him talking about work from home and you know people about work from home and you know people about work from home and you know people not coming to work and having mental not coming to work and having mental not coming to work and having mental health days and all this stuff and and health days and all this stuff and and health days and all this stuff and and he just was railing against saying this he just was railing against saying this he just was railing against saying this is killing us you know and I think he is killing us you know and I think he is killing us you know and I think he was I think he I can't remember was I think he I can't remember was I think he I can't remember apologies if I'm wrong but all of a

apologies if I'm wrong but all of a apologies if I'm wrong but all of a sudden the leader is going we got to be sudden the leader is going we got to be sudden the leader is going we got to be China in AI Quantum Computing missile China in AI Quantum Computing missile China in AI Quantum Computing missile production this stuff is not going to production this stuff is not going to production this stuff is not going to help us in that you know uh you that's help us in that you know uh you that's help us in that you know uh you that's that conversation in Britain that's like that conversation in Britain that's like that conversation in Britain that's like the West is going if we continue in this the West is going if we continue in this the West is going if we continue in this way there is a significant reduction in way there is a significant reduction in way there is a significant reduction in our capacity as a country as a whole our capacity as a country as a whole our capacity as a country as a whole that's I think the ultimate driver of that's I think the ultimate driver of that's I think the ultimate driver of the backlash so I want to keep going on the backlash so I want to keep going on the backlash so I want to keep going on some of the changes we're seeing because some of the changes we're seeing because some of the changes we're seeing because believe it or not we're not done leaders believe it or not we're not done leaders believe it or not we're not done leaders there's a lot to talk about but what I there's a lot to talk about but what I there's a lot to talk about but what I want to pin right now is the massive want to pin right now is the massive want to pin right now is the massive shift in values I was really surprised shift in values I was really surprised shift in values I was really surprised pick on Mark Zuckerberg that's somebody pick on Mark Zuckerberg that's somebody pick on Mark Zuckerberg that's somebody who for years said I am about XYZ is now who for years said I am about XYZ is now who for years said I am about XYZ is now having dinner at mer Lago like hey man having dinner at mer Lago like hey man having dinner at mer Lago like hey man everything's good like turned on a dime everything's good like turned on a dime everything's good like turned on a dime and I think about being a people of and I think about being a people of and I think about being a people of Faith right if you look at the position Faith right if you look at the position Faith right if you look at the position of first century Christians up against of first century Christians up against of first century Christians up against the Roman the Roman the Roman Empire it's sort of interesting and I'm Empire it's sort of interesting and I'm Empire it's sort of interesting and I'm not making direct parallels here so so not making direct parallels here so so not making direct parallels here so so save save yourself in the comments there save save yourself in the comments there save save yourself in the comments there don't bother um but I'm just wondering don't bother um but I'm just wondering don't bother um but I'm just wondering you know when you you you referenced a you know when you you you referenced a you know when you you you referenced a book I forget what it's called about book I forget what it's called about book I forget what it's called about it's not virtue siging but you say it's not virtue siging but you say it's not virtue siging but you say something publicly but believe something something publicly but believe something something publicly but believe something privately Quran yeah yeah do you want to privately Quran yeah yeah do you want to privately Quran yeah yeah do you want to talk about that a little bit because I talk about that a little bit because I talk about that a little bit because I think for think for think for pastors it's really interesting like I pastors it's really interesting like I pastors it's really interesting like I would like to be the same you know would like to be the same you know would like to be the same you know hopefully I'm growing right so there's hopefully I'm growing right so there's hopefully I'm growing right so there's more Holy Spirit in me 10 years from now

more Holy Spirit in me 10 years from now more Holy Spirit in me 10 years from now than there is now now but I would like than there is now now but I would like than there is now now but I would like to think that my fundamental beliefs and to think that my fundamental beliefs and to think that my fundamental beliefs and values aren't going to shift because the values aren't going to shift because the values aren't going to shift because the political order shifted but when you political order shifted but when you political order shifted but when you look at the business and Tech world you look at the business and Tech world you look at the business and Tech world you see what appears to be the opposite and see what appears to be the opposite and see what appears to be the opposite and you also see some Churches really going you also see some Churches really going you also see some Churches really going sort of in a in a in a Rubberneck sort of in a in a in a Rubberneck sort of in a in a in a Rubberneck Direction too oh we were about this but Direction too oh we were about this but Direction too oh we were about this but now we're about that and I'm just now we're about that and I'm just now we're about that and I'm just wondering like from an Integrity wondering like from an Integrity wondering like from an Integrity standpoint I have a hard time with that standpoint I have a hard time with that standpoint I have a hard time with that I'm just wondering what your read is of I'm just wondering what your read is of I'm just wondering what your read is of why we see so many people switching why we see so many people switching why we see so many people switching allegiances and even forget the allegiances and even forget the allegiances and even forget the allegiance value systems overnight you allegiance value systems overnight you allegiance value systems overnight you know it's almost like a a version of the know it's almost like a a version of the know it's almost like a a version of the deconversion that we're seeing over the deconversion that we're seeing over the deconversion that we're seeing over the last 10 years you know the exvangelical last 10 years you know the exvangelical last 10 years you know the exvangelical movement used to believe this don't movement used to believe this don't movement used to believe this don't believe this anymore uh we're we're believe this anymore uh we're we're believe this anymore uh we're we're seeing that at an unbelievable rate seeing that at an unbelievable rate seeing that at an unbelievable rate right right right now what's behind it there's three now what's behind it there's three now what's behind it there's three things so one yeah timaran wrote a book things so one yeah timaran wrote a book things so one yeah timaran wrote a book some time ago and he's a Turkish I think some time ago and he's a Turkish I think some time ago and he's a Turkish I think sociologist and I think it was called sociologist and I think it was called sociologist and I think it was called private lies public no public lies private lies public no public lies private lies public no public lies private truth um and he and he used the private truth um and he and he used the private truth um and he and he used the example of during the Communist era in a example of during the Communist era in a example of during the Communist era in a lot of shops I come it was like lot of shops I come it was like lot of shops I come it was like Czechoslovakia or something they would Czechoslovakia or something they would Czechoslovakia or something they would have this like little sign in the store have this like little sign in the store have this like little sign in the store saying workers of the World Unite which saying workers of the World Unite which saying workers of the World Unite which was their way of aligning with the was their way of aligning with the was their way of aligning with the Communist party and then all of a sudden Communist party and then all of a sudden Communist party and then all of a sudden when communism fell um at the beginning when communism fell um at the beginning when communism fell um at the beginning of the end of the 80s beginning of the of the end of the 80s beginning of the of the end of the 80s beginning of the 90s everyone just removed them you know 90s everyone just removed them you know 90s everyone just removed them you know and so sociologist went and asked them and so sociologist went and asked them and so sociologist went and asked them like why why did you have that up and we like why why did you have that up and we like why why did you have that up and we didn't believe it and you know we just

didn't believe it and you know we just didn't believe it and you know we just had it up you know because you had to had it up you know because you had to had it up you know because you had to and he makes the point that so many of and he makes the point that so many of and he makes the point that so many of our public facing values are often our public facing values are often our public facing values are often transactional or they're not really what transactional or they're not really what transactional or they're not really what we believe in private and I think that we believe in private and I think that we believe in private and I think that what's happened with the internet what's happened with the internet what's happened with the internet there's two elements to the internet there's two elements to the internet there's two elements to the internet there is your public facing Instagram or there is your public facing Instagram or there is your public facing Instagram or Facebook or X accounts but then there's Facebook or X accounts but then there's Facebook or X accounts but then there's been this growth of your WhatsApp group been this growth of your WhatsApp group been this growth of your WhatsApp group your text text message you know and you your text text message you know and you your text text message you know and you hear this commentary now where people hear this commentary now where people hear this commentary now where people say on the thread or the text chain we say on the thread or the text chain we say on the thread or the text chain we were saying this but they're putting up were saying this but they're putting up were saying this but they're putting up that and this began to happen so this that and this began to happen so this that and this began to happen so this has happened across the culture it's has happened across the culture it's has happened across the culture it's like these little so in communism and like these little so in communism and like these little so in communism and again to I'm not comparing to Communism again to I'm not comparing to Communism again to I'm not comparing to Communism it's very different but you know in it's very different but you know in it's very different but you know in communism or totalitarian regime you communism or totalitarian regime you communism or totalitarian regime you know you might get some people you trust know you might get some people you trust know you might get some people you trust and have a very quiet conversation where and have a very quiet conversation where and have a very quiet conversation where no one can hear late at night in your no one can hear late at night in your no one can hear late at night in your kitchen around the table um the version kitchen around the table um the version kitchen around the table um the version we have of that is these text message we have of that is these text message we have of that is these text message chains in Signal or Whatsapp or Telegram chains in Signal or Whatsapp or Telegram chains in Signal or Whatsapp or Telegram and that's been going on but you can't and that's been going on but you can't and that's been going on but you can't see that there's no way to measure that see that there's no way to measure that see that there's no way to measure that and because we get a false read from and because we get a false read from and because we get a false read from social media um we think that's the social media um we think that's the social media um we think that's the conversation social media is not the conversation social media is not the conversation social media is not the conversation the text chains of the conversation the text chains of the conversation the text chains of the conversation and that's all so there's conversation and that's all so there's conversation and that's all so there's like a below the water above the water like a below the water above the water like a below the water above the water line the book by the way is private line the book by the way is private line the book by the way is private truths public lies Tim kurran Tim Kuran truths public lies Tim kurran Tim Kuran truths public lies Tim kurran Tim Kuran yeah um and I read that I think in 2015 yeah um and I read that I think in 2015 yeah um and I read that I think in 2015 2016 and I just thought okay so a lot of 2016 and I just thought okay so a lot of 2016 and I just thought okay so a lot of what people are saying is not true and I what people are saying is not true and I what people are saying is not true and I just remember got to be very careful how

just remember got to be very careful how just remember got to be very careful how I say this but I remember meeting a I say this but I remember meeting a I say this but I remember meeting a couple people who were very vocal in the couple people who were very vocal in the couple people who were very vocal in the public sphere about woke issues or public sphere about woke issues or public sphere about woke issues or seemed very Progressive and then when seemed very Progressive and then when seemed very Progressive and then when you spoke to them they were like oh I you spoke to them they were like oh I you spoke to them they were like oh I don't really believe this stuff and you don't really believe this stuff and you don't really believe this stuff and you had those convos wow they're just like had those convos wow they're just like had those convos wow they're just like I've got to do this for my job you know I've got to do this for my job you know I've got to do this for my job you know just like there was quality assurance or just like there was quality assurance or just like there was quality assurance or professional development you know sort professional development you know sort professional development you know sort of trends that came through in the '90s of trends that came through in the '90s of trends that came through in the '90s this was the new one you know um and uh this was the new one you know um and uh this was the new one you know um and uh they just saw this you know and even they just saw this you know and even they just saw this you know and even cases where people were doing in their cases where people were doing in their cases where people were doing in their private lives the opposite you know and private lives the opposite you know and private lives the opposite you know and we saw that on the flip side you there's we saw that on the flip side you there's we saw that on the flip side you there's a famous member I think a Hungarian a famous member I think a Hungarian a famous member I think a Hungarian politician who was like the family politician who was like the family politician who was like the family Minister um for you know I think it was Minister um for you know I think it was Minister um for you know I think it was one of the parties in Hungary who then one of the parties in Hungary who then one of the parties in Hungary who then was you know busted um with a let's just was you know busted um with a let's just was you know busted um with a let's just say a private life which was the say a private life which was the say a private life which was the complete opposite of that so this has complete opposite of that so this has complete opposite of that so this has always been you know we've known for always been you know we've known for always been you know we've known for many years the conservative politician many years the conservative politician many years the conservative politician who is busted for you know having who is busted for you know having who is busted for you know having multiple Affairs or something this is multiple Affairs or something this is multiple Affairs or something this is just the other version of it the super just the other version of it the super just the other version of it the super woke person who's not really doing that woke person who's not really doing that woke person who's not really doing that it's about Korea so there's also this it's about Korea so there's also this it's about Korea so there's also this very cynical thing and a lot of people very cynical thing and a lot of people very cynical thing and a lot of people saw the musk actions going this is about saw the musk actions going this is about saw the musk actions going this is about money and I think it is there's an money and I think it is there's an money and I think it is there's an element that there isn't a thing where a element that there isn't a thing where a element that there isn't a thing where a lot of these Wall Street people jumped lot of these Wall Street people jumped lot of these Wall Street people jumped across or Silicon Valley jumped across across or Silicon Valley jumped across across or Silicon Valley jumped across because this is what's best for the because this is what's best for the because this is what's best for the bottom line but I also do think that you bottom line but I also do think that you bottom line but I also do think that you know I read There was an interesting know I read There was an interesting know I read There was an interesting article in the New York Times about article in the New York Times about article in the New York Times about Zuckerberg and this reporter you know Zuckerberg and this reporter you know Zuckerberg and this reporter you know spoke to a lot of people in his Circle spoke to a lot of people in his Circle spoke to a lot of people in his Circle and they and and the feedback that this and they and and the feedback that this and they and and the feedback that this reporter got was this is genuine you reporter got was this is genuine you reporter got was this is genuine you know if you look at the trajectory of know if you look at the trajectory of know if you look at the trajectory of someone like um Joe Rogan they've gone

someone like um Joe Rogan they've gone someone like um Joe Rogan they've gone on a journey Joe Rogan is the biggest on a journey Joe Rogan is the biggest on a journey Joe Rogan is the biggest media thing in the world at the moment media thing in the world at the moment media thing in the world at the moment like like like megastop a large audience compared to megastop a large audience compared to megastop a large audience compared to Someone Like You Know CNN you know we Someone Like You Know CNN you know we Someone Like You Know CNN you know we see this like I've run the numbers it's see this like I've run the numbers it's see this like I've run the numbers it's staggering it's something like 11 staggering it's something like 11 staggering it's something like 11 million um listeners per episode viewers million um listeners per episode viewers million um listeners per episode viewers per episode for Rogan I just did a per episode for Rogan I just did a per episode for Rogan I just did a presentation a talk on this to a Media presentation a talk on this to a Media presentation a talk on this to a Media Group and 700,000 Group and 700,000 Group and 700,000 for CNN and I want to come back to that for CNN and I want to come back to that for CNN and I want to come back to that I want to come back to that but like I want to come back to that but like I want to come back to that but like when you think is Rogan that big yeah when you think is Rogan that big yeah when you think is Rogan that big yeah he's like more than 1213 act over some he's like more than 1213 act over some he's like more than 1213 act over some of the cable news networks which is of the cable news networks which is of the cable news networks which is amazing and and he's gone on a journey amazing and and he's gone on a journey amazing and and he's gone on a journey you know from I think he s of voted you know from I think he s of voted you know from I think he s of voted Obama or you know sort of like a sort of Obama or you know sort of like a sort of Obama or you know sort of like a sort of left-wing sort of you know libertarian left-wing sort of you know libertarian left-wing sort of you know libertarian guy and he's gone on this journey and a guy and he's gone on this journey and a guy and he's gone on this journey and a lot of people of Silicon Valley and lot of people of Silicon Valley and lot of people of Silicon Valley and conversations I've had with different conversations I've had with different conversations I've had with different people you know sort of in that scene people you know sort of in that scene people you know sort of in that scene say that's what's happened you've seen say that's what's happened you've seen say that's what's happened you've seen this journey it's been a it's not just this journey it's been a it's not just this journey it's been a it's not just political it's spiritual it's lifestyle political it's spiritual it's lifestyle political it's spiritual it's lifestyle it's there's this massive change that's it's there's this massive change that's it's there's this massive change that's happened you know people were saying happened you know people were saying happened you know people were saying it's just men that was the interesting it's just men that was the interesting it's just men that was the interesting thing like in the election people saying thing like in the election people saying thing like in the election people saying oh young men has swung to the right and oh young men has swung to the right and oh young men has swung to the right and women haven't well actually young women women haven't well actually young women women haven't well actually young women SW swung to the right as well not as big SW swung to the right as well not as big SW swung to the right as well not as big numbers but there was a swing in every numbers but there was a swing in every numbers but there was a swing in every demographic so I think that people in demographic so I think that people in demographic so I think that people in the last sort of 10 years have gone on the last sort of 10 years have gone on the last sort of 10 years have gone on this epic journey and you don't see it this epic journey and you don't see it this epic journey and you don't see it until get like a marker like an election until get like a marker like an election until get like a marker like an election but the conversation that people were but the conversation that people were but the conversation that people were having when populism arose was H it's

having when populism arose was H it's having when populism arose was H it's the Boomers it's the old people hanging the Boomers it's the old people hanging the Boomers it's the old people hanging on for 1950 you know I just literally on for 1950 you know I just literally on for 1950 you know I just literally read an article about what's happening read an article about what's happening read an article about what's happening in Germany and you had young people in Germany and you had young people in Germany and you had young people defending the far right they're the ones defending the far right they're the ones defending the far right they're the ones joining the afd um that's where the joining the afd um that's where the joining the afd um that's where the energy is and then they we'll talk to energy is and then they we'll talk to energy is and then they we'll talk to the opposition the opposition were the opposition the opposition were the opposition the opposition were literally called Grant Granny's against literally called Grant Granny's against literally called Grant Granny's against the far right and it was like an 84y old the far right and it was like an 84y old the far right and it was like an 84y old so that sort of mental paradigm so that sort of mental paradigm so that sort of mental paradigm um which first we thought was just um which first we thought was just um which first we thought was just Europe and the English speaking world Europe and the English speaking world Europe and the English speaking world was different the the the thing that's was different the the the thing that's was different the the the thing that's changing as well is the cost of living changing as well is the cost of living changing as well is the cost of living crisis housing this is you got a Young crisis housing this is you got a Young crisis housing this is you got a Young Generation who has no hope for the Generation who has no hope for the Generation who has no hope for the future that they're going to have you future that they're going to have you future that they're going to have you know the social contract for them is know the social contract for them is know the social contract for them is broken so that means that they're broken so that means that they're broken so that means that they're incredibly ideologically flexible last incredibly ideologically flexible last incredibly ideologically flexible last point I read two reports from I think it point I read two reports from I think it point I read two reports from I think it was the head of Australian intelligence was the head of Australian intelligence was the head of Australian intelligence and the head of British ccer extremism and the head of British ccer extremism and the head of British ccer extremism and they said the same thing that and they said the same thing that and they said the same thing that they're now struggling to deal with so they're now struggling to deal with so they're now struggling to deal with so like after the war on terror if you like after the war on terror if you like after the war on terror if you wanted to fight terrorists you would go wanted to fight terrorists you would go wanted to fight terrorists you would go to some you know radical small mosques to some you know radical small mosques to some you know radical small mosques which were sort of jihadist and salafist which were sort of jihadist and salafist which were sort of jihadist and salafist you know and you could go to certain you know and you could go to certain you know and you could go to certain places and find these guys and that's places and find these guys and that's places and find these guys and that's who your terrorists are because they who your terrorists are because they who your terrorists are because they follow this radical ideological you know follow this radical ideological you know follow this radical ideological you know framework what they're now discovering framework what they're now discovering framework what they're now discovering is there is this utter flexibility so is there is this utter flexibility so is there is this utter flexibility so they're discovering people who are like they're discovering people who are like they're discovering people who are like they become an Islamic radical and then they become an Islamic radical and then they become an Islamic radical and then 6 months later they're a farri Nazi this 6 months later they're a farri Nazi this 6 months later they're a farri Nazi this I me this is the mindblowing thing I me this is the mindblowing thing I me this is the mindblowing thing they're finding people like there was a

they're finding people like there was a they're finding people like there was a couple of people recently who were like couple of people recently who were like couple of people recently who were like white white white supremacists um who are not white this supremacists um who are not white this supremacists um who are not white this is a growing thing many of the white is a growing thing many of the white is a growing thing many of the white supremacist accounts on Twitter are run supremacist accounts on Twitter are run supremacist accounts on Twitter are run by people of color which is just by people of color which is just by people of color which is just mindblowing I saw an interview in mindblowing I saw an interview in mindblowing I saw an interview in Australia of a far right um group and Australia of a far right um group and Australia of a far right um group and they're interviewing this guy and he's a they're interviewing this guy and he's a they're interviewing this guy and he's a Sudanese Australian guy he's a refugee Sudanese Australian guy he's a refugee Sudanese Australian guy he's a refugee and they're asking about refugees I'm and they're asking about refugees I'm and they're asking about refugees I'm against I'm against migration and you're against I'm against migration and you're against I'm against migration and you're like this is so bizarre um and I think like this is so bizarre um and I think like this is so bizarre um and I think you know you so what they're finding is you know you so what they're finding is you know you so what they're finding is they're having to come up with this new they're having to come up with this new they're having to come up with this new framework because people are spinning framework because people are spinning framework because people are spinning their ideology so quickly and if you their ideology so quickly and if you their ideology so quickly and if you think about onl what the online world think about onl what the online world think about onl what the online world has done a feed is this highly fluid has done a feed is this highly fluid has done a feed is this highly fluid environment you if you're scrolling environment you if you're scrolling environment you if you're scrolling through X it changes all the time and through X it changes all the time and through X it changes all the time and it's like a radicalization machine at it's like a radicalization machine at it's like a radicalization machine at hypers speed but it can throw you in hypers speed but it can throw you in hypers speed but it can throw you in different directions the algorithm can different directions the algorithm can different directions the algorithm can change you click on something you get on change you click on something you get on change you click on something you get on that rabbit you click on that one it's that rabbit you click on that one it's that rabbit you click on that one it's another Rabbit Hole so the ability of another Rabbit Hole so the ability of another Rabbit Hole so the ability of the internet to radicalize us in the internet to radicalize us in the internet to radicalize us in directions at extreme uh Pace you know directions at extreme uh Pace you know directions at extreme uh Pace you know the original idea for that was like I'm the original idea for that was like I'm the original idea for that was like I'm going to get you to buy those Nike going to get you to buy those Nike going to get you to buy those Nike sneakers or buy that property over there sneakers or buy that property over there sneakers or buy that property over there and that you know I remember reading a and that you know I remember reading a and that you know I remember reading a book by I think it was Douglas rashkoff book by I think it was Douglas rashkoff book by I think it was Douglas rashkoff like at the end of the 90s was saying a like at the end of the 90s was saying a like at the end of the 90s was saying a lot of the um sort of brain Imaging lot of the um sort of brain Imaging lot of the um sort of brain Imaging machines in New York were being you know machines in New York were being you know machines in New York were being you know rented by advertising you know companies rented by advertising you know companies rented by advertising you know companies on Madison Avenue so they could on Madison Avenue so they could on Madison Avenue so they could understand how our brain reacts to understand how our brain reacts to understand how our brain reacts to certain stuff we got 20 years of that certain stuff we got 20 years of that certain stuff we got 20 years of that now um the like these these These are

now um the like these these These are now um the like these these These are the smartest people in the world trying the smartest people in the world trying the smartest people in the world trying to get you to buy stuff but that to get you to buy stuff but that to get you to buy stuff but that technology is now used by political technology is now used by political technology is now used by political ideology as well so they can make people ideology as well so they can make people ideology as well so they can make people flip on a dime I mean one thing I'm one flip on a dime I mean one thing I'm one flip on a dime I mean one thing I'm one thing that's really surprising me with thing that's really surprising me with thing that's really surprising me with the deconversion thing and exvangelical the deconversion thing and exvangelical the deconversion thing and exvangelical is what we're seeing here in Australia is what we're seeing here in Australia is what we're seeing here in Australia is the reconversion thing having is the reconversion thing having is the reconversion thing having conversations with people who just come conversations with people who just come conversations with people who just come up go CU my sort of thought was in the up go CU my sort of thought was in the up go CU my sort of thought was in the '90s had lots of friends who did this '90s had lots of friends who did this '90s had lots of friends who did this and you know early 2000s and just didn't and you know early 2000s and just didn't and you know early 2000s and just didn't come back to church so my thing is if come back to church so my thing is if come back to church so my thing is if someone's done that it's highly unlikely someone's done that it's highly unlikely someone's done that it's highly unlikely to come back to church we're getting to come back to church we're getting to come back to church we're getting people turning up to church and I had people turning up to church and I had people turning up to church and I had the conversation I deconstructed I the conversation I deconstructed I the conversation I deconstructed I deconverted I'm like okay and I'm sort deconverted I'm like okay and I'm sort deconverted I'm like okay and I'm sort of preparing myself for some argument of preparing myself for some argument of preparing myself for some argument but now they're like I'm coming back and but now they're like I'm coming back and but now they're like I'm coming back and rebuilding and they're sort of you know rebuilding and they're sort of you know rebuilding and they're sort of you know coming back and it's not like they're coming back and it's not like they're coming back and it's not like they're coming back to some sort of progressive coming back to some sort of progressive coming back to some sort of progressive liberal they're like coming back liberal they're like coming back liberal they're like coming back sometimes more engaged fa in them before sometimes more engaged fa in them before sometimes more engaged fa in them before so even I'm like you've got to rethink so even I'm like you've got to rethink so even I'm like you've got to rethink this Mark there's a lot more flexibility this Mark there's a lot more flexibility this Mark there's a lot more flexibility and change happening at a rapid point so and change happening at a rapid point so and change happening at a rapid point so flexibility and adaptability is is going flexibility and adaptability is is going flexibility and adaptability is is going to be key I want to keep going on the to be key I want to keep going on the to be key I want to keep going on the cultural changes but uh I want to get to cultural changes but uh I want to get to cultural changes but uh I want to get to your new work is on moving from your new work is on moving from your new work is on moving from platforms to pillars and just put a pin platforms to pillars and just put a pin platforms to pillars and just put a pin in that for a second that we can come in that for a second that we can come in that for a second that we can come back to mark because you know and I back to mark because you know and I back to mark because you know and I agree with you I mean if you listen to agree with you I mean if you listen to agree with you I mean if you listen to Rogan you listen to Steven Bartlett Rogan you listen to Steven Bartlett Rogan you listen to Steven Bartlett Diary of a CEO they're talking about Diary of a CEO they're talking about Diary of a CEO they're talking about their spiritual journey Tim ferah show their spiritual journey Tim ferah show their spiritual journey Tim ferah show another one of the biggest podcasts in another one of the biggest podcasts in another one of the biggest podcasts in the world Tim's way more open the world Tim's way more open the world Tim's way more open spiritually than he was five years ago

spiritually than he was five years ago spiritually than he was five years ago definitely not Christian but like there definitely not Christian but like there definitely not Christian but like there is an openness now and a is an openness now and a is an openness now and a movement that is fascinating but for movement that is fascinating but for movement that is fascinating but for Christians themselves right you're Christians themselves right you're Christians themselves right you're arguing we need anchors we need pillars arguing we need anchors we need pillars arguing we need anchors we need pillars we need people whose convictions don't we need people whose convictions don't we need people whose convictions don't shift with the wind or the sand or the shift with the wind or the sand or the shift with the wind or the sand or the tide and you know literally you know tide and you know literally you know tide and you know literally you know when it comes to our faith uh for those when it comes to our faith uh for those when it comes to our faith uh for those of us who would say no I've I've of us who would say no I've I've of us who would say no I've I've followed Jesus uh Christians died for followed Jesus uh Christians died for followed Jesus uh Christians died for this stuff like we're literally burned this stuff like we're literally burned this stuff like we're literally burned at the stake over the centuries over I'm at the stake over the centuries over I'm at the stake over the centuries over I'm not going to kiss the ring or I'm not not going to kiss the ring or I'm not not going to kiss the ring or I'm not going to do this so it's it it raises going to do this so it's it it raises going to do this so it's it it raises all kinds of issues but I want to keep all kinds of issues but I want to keep all kinds of issues but I want to keep going because we're not done with the going because we're not done with the going because we're not done with the change you also I've heard you change you also I've heard you change you also I've heard you say politicians are now acknowledging say politicians are now acknowledging say politicians are now acknowledging that the economic system is broken I'll that the economic system is broken I'll that the economic system is broken I'll give you an example literally 2 hours give you an example literally 2 hours give you an example literally 2 hours ago I was talking to a guy who moved ago I was talking to a guy who moved ago I was talking to a guy who moved from California to Montana he moved from California to Montana he moved from California to Montana he moved there 5 years ago and he bought a lot of there 5 years ago and he bought a lot of there 5 years ago and he bought a lot of acreage and he said literally my acreage and he said literally my acreage and he said literally my property value has tripled in the last property value has tripled in the last property value has tripled in the last five years and I know people in ski five years and I know people in ski five years and I know people in ski towns and Resort destination that are towns and Resort destination that are towns and Resort destination that are off the grid we're not talking the off the grid we're not talking the off the grid we're not talking the coasts just like who like everybody's coasts just like who like everybody's coasts just like who like everybody's priced out of the market uh unhoused priced out of the market uh unhoused priced out of the market uh unhoused homelessness is through the roof in homelessness is through the roof in homelessness is through the roof in North America I was really impressed North America I was really impressed North America I was really impressed with Australia you guys don't have much with Australia you guys don't have much with Australia you guys don't have much and I was there a year ago you figured and I was there a year ago you figured and I was there a year ago you figured that out we we got to all take notes but that out we we got to all take notes but that out we we got to all take notes but like people can't afford anything I'm

like people can't afford anything I'm like people can't afford anything I'm I'm looking at uh so I I'm really cheap I'm looking at uh so I I'm really cheap I'm looking at uh so I I'm really cheap on some things windshield washer fluid on some things windshield washer fluid on some things windshield washer fluid you need a lot of that in Canada um in you need a lot of that in Canada um in you need a lot of that in Canada um in three months it went from three months it went from three months it went from $3.99 to $450 to $3.99 to $450 to $3.99 to $450 to $5 in the cheap stores it's like what is $5 in the cheap stores it's like what is $5 in the cheap stores it's like what is that the price didn't not just go up by that the price didn't not just go up by that the price didn't not just go up by 25% something's going on here and people 25% something's going on here and people 25% something's going on here and people are losing faith and you know forget are losing faith and you know forget are losing faith and you know forget housing cars everything is super housing cars everything is super housing cars everything is super expensive now and you know you're expensive now and you know you're expensive now and you know you're preaching to people who will be I'll preaching to people who will be I'll preaching to people who will be I'll never own a house I'm going to rent never own a house I'm going to rent never own a house I'm going to rent we're going to become multif family we're going to become multif family we're going to become multif family we're going to become I'm going to have we're going to become I'm going to have we're going to become I'm going to have a roommate till I'm 73 years old um talk a roommate till I'm 73 years old um talk a roommate till I'm 73 years old um talk about the economic system is it broken about the economic system is it broken about the economic system is it broken are politicians acknowledging that like are politicians acknowledging that like are politicians acknowledging that like again another thing that's happening again another thing that's happening again another thing that's happening rapidly cuz we keep thinking we'll snap rapidly cuz we keep thinking we'll snap rapidly cuz we keep thinking we'll snap out of this and we'll go back back to out of this and we'll go back back to out of this and we'll go back back to the way it was everybody can have a the way it was everybody can have a the way it was everybody can have a house everybody can live indoors what's house everybody can live indoors what's house everybody can live indoors what's going on it's yeah so I think this is going on it's yeah so I think this is going on it's yeah so I think this is also got to be seen as one of the things also got to be seen as one of the things also got to be seen as one of the things driving a lot of the political change at driving a lot of the political change at driving a lot of the political change at the end of the day I also think woke the end of the day I also think woke the end of the day I also think woke broke because people don't want to talk broke because people don't want to talk broke because people don't want to talk about sort of what's to them feels like about sort of what's to them feels like about sort of what's to them feels like esoteric identity politics issues when I esoteric identity politics issues when I esoteric identity politics issues when I exactly I can't pay for eggs or exactly I can't pay for eggs or exactly I can't pay for eggs or windscreen you know wind windshield windscreen you know wind windshield windscreen you know wind windshield wiper uh fluid yeah I mean okay so one wiper uh fluid yeah I mean okay so one wiper uh fluid yeah I mean okay so one thing that's radically changed in the thing that's radically changed in the thing that's radically changed in the economy is a shift and people this is economy is a shift and people this is economy is a shift and people this is why people like Steve Bannon want to go why people like Steve Bannon want to go why people like Steve Bannon want to go back to sort of 1950s and 60s the back to sort of 1950s and 60s the back to sort of 1950s and 60s the economy of industrialization of not economy of industrialization of not economy of industrialization of not having Jobs go overseas is you know a having Jobs go overseas is you know a having Jobs go overseas is you know a couple things happen one is couple things happen one is couple things happen one is globalization globalization was seeing

globalization globalization was seeing globalization globalization was seeing the entire world as a market so you know the entire world as a market so you know the entire world as a market so you know the sort of deal was well we'll move the the sort of deal was well we'll move the the sort of deal was well we'll move the car factory out of North America to car factory out of North America to car factory out of North America to Mexico or to um you know China and yes Mexico or to um you know China and yes Mexico or to um you know China and yes some Factory workers will lose jobs here some Factory workers will lose jobs here some Factory workers will lose jobs here but the benefit is your car will be but the benefit is your car will be but the benefit is your car will be cheaper um however there's a price to cheaper um however there's a price to cheaper um however there's a price to pay that that was good for wealthy or pay that that was good for wealthy or pay that that was good for wealthy or upper middle class people get a cheaper upper middle class people get a cheaper upper middle class people get a cheaper car but it's not good for workingclass car but it's not good for workingclass car but it's not good for workingclass people and you know you had um a people and you know you had um a people and you know you had um a backlash against that so what you've backlash against that so what you've backlash against that so what you've seen is the ability of workingclass seen is the ability of workingclass seen is the ability of workingclass people who forly would work in people who forly would work in people who forly would work in industrial jobs in the west is the gap industrial jobs in the west is the gap industrial jobs in the west is the gap between rich and poor is growing so between rich and poor is growing so between rich and poor is growing so that's one thing that then drove a world that's one thing that then drove a world that's one thing that then drove a world where you had this world of where you had this world of where you had this world of financialization what does that mean financialization what does that mean financialization what does that mean complex word but so important to complex word but so important to complex word but so important to understand is instead of making stuff understand is instead of making stuff understand is instead of making stuff and being productive from making stuff and being productive from making stuff and being productive from making stuff we gave that to China uh and that we gave that to China uh and that we gave that to China uh and that enabled China's rise and China could enabled China's rise and China could enabled China's rise and China could make cheap stuff so it felt like we were make cheap stuff so it felt like we were make cheap stuff so it felt like we were getting richer when we weren't getting richer when we weren't getting richer when we weren't necessarily getting richer it's just necessarily getting richer it's just necessarily getting richer it's just that TVs cost not that much different that TVs cost not that much different that TVs cost not that much different from 20 years earlier is we started from 20 years earlier is we started from 20 years earlier is we started making money from the selling of making money from the selling of making money from the selling of financial products so all of a sudden financial products so all of a sudden financial products so all of a sudden the city of London New York Wall Street the city of London New York Wall Street the city of London New York Wall Street uh the global economy became around uh the global economy became around uh the global economy became around really finances and money that could really finances and money that could really finances and money that could come from finances in many ways that come from finances in many ways that come from finances in many ways that sort of fell in on itself in the global sort of fell in on itself in the global sort of fell in on itself in the global financial crisis in 2008 when some of financial crisis in 2008 when some of financial crisis in 2008 when some of the stop gaps that were put in at back the stop gaps that were put in at back the stop gaps that were put in at back in the Great Depression were removed and in the Great Depression were removed and in the Great Depression were removed and what the Great Depression put those stop

what the Great Depression put those stop what the Great Depression put those stop gaps in so you wouldn't have another gaps in so you wouldn't have another gaps in so you wouldn't have another financial crash but we had one in 2008 financial crash but we had one in 2008 financial crash but we had one in 2008 so you had this problem that we're not so you had this problem that we're not so you had this problem that we're not producing stuff the economy is not producing stuff the economy is not producing stuff the economy is not producing stuff in the way that we used producing stuff in the way that we used producing stuff in the way that we used to if you produce stuff that makes you to if you produce stuff that makes you to if you produce stuff that makes you you know a growing economy it makes you you know a growing economy it makes you you know a growing economy it makes you wealthy but we were just basically wealthy but we were just basically wealthy but we were just basically making money from Financial that goes making money from Financial that goes making money from Financial that goes and also that began to accelerate and also that began to accelerate and also that began to accelerate housing as a way of wealth so for housing as a way of wealth so for housing as a way of wealth so for example if you've got a house you know example if you've got a house you know example if you've got a house you know so yeah my my wife try bought the house so yeah my my wife try bought the house so yeah my my wife try bought the house two two years before you got married uh two two years before you got married uh two two years before you got married uh you know a humble house here in in in you know a humble house here in in in you know a humble house here in in in Melbourne and it's just astronomically Melbourne and it's just astronomically Melbourne and it's just astronomically gone up um now in a sense it doesn't gone up um now in a sense it doesn't gone up um now in a sense it doesn't help you anymore because well if I had help you anymore because well if I had help you anymore because well if I had to sell this house and move somewhere to sell this house and move somewhere to sell this house and move somewhere else the other houses have gone up but else the other houses have gone up but else the other houses have gone up but it makes you feel like you've got money it makes you feel like you've got money it makes you feel like you've got money well this is how much I have as an asset well this is how much I have as an asset well this is how much I have as an asset set now that makes you feel good if you set now that makes you feel good if you set now that makes you feel good if you own a house but the problem is is with own a house but the problem is is with own a house but the problem is is with Rising Generations they don't own a Rising Generations they don't own a Rising Generations they don't own a house so in a sense a lot of the reason house so in a sense a lot of the reason house so in a sense a lot of the reason that the housing market went up because that the housing market went up because that the housing market went up because the mortgages that you have on your the mortgages that you have on your the mortgages that you have on your house is then sort of cut and spliced house is then sort of cut and spliced house is then sort of cut and spliced and diced by Banks and sold around the and diced by Banks and sold around the and diced by Banks and sold around the world in these sort of like almost world in these sort of like almost world in these sort of like almost mystical Financial Arrangements where mystical Financial Arrangements where mystical Financial Arrangements where money's made on the debt and so on now money's made on the debt and so on now money's made on the debt and so on now what happens is 2008 there's the what happens is 2008 there's the what happens is 2008 there's the financial crisis so one of the reasons financial crisis so one of the reasons financial crisis so one of the reasons that governments dealt with that is we that governments dealt with that is we that governments dealt with that is we started doing stimulus quantitative started doing stimulus quantitative started doing stimulus quantitative easing printing money effectively so easing printing money effectively so easing printing money effectively so it's like an adrenaline shot like to get it's like an adrenaline shot like to get it's like an adrenaline shot like to get a heart going that had stopped we did a heart going that had stopped we did a heart going that had stopped we did that um and it's sort of like there was that um and it's sort of like there was that um and it's sort of like there was an effect but it sort of got things

an effect but it sort of got things an effect but it sort of got things moving again the problem is co happens moving again the problem is co happens moving again the problem is co happens and there's another Financial shock to and there's another Financial shock to and there's another Financial shock to the level of the Great Depression people the level of the Great Depression people the level of the Great Depression people forget that like everyone remembers forget that like everyone remembers forget that like everyone remembers lockdowns and masks and so on but there lockdowns and masks and so on but there lockdowns and masks and so on but there was a massive economic shock globally to was a massive economic shock globally to was a massive economic shock globally to the level of Great Depression the reason the level of Great Depression the reason the level of Great Depression the reason we didn't feel it economically like the we didn't feel it economically like the we didn't feel it economically like the Great impression is we started printing Great impression is we started printing Great impression is we started printing money again you can only do the money again you can only do the money again you can only do the adrenaline shot to save your heart so adrenaline shot to save your heart so adrenaline shot to save your heart so many times before your heart gives in many times before your heart gives in many times before your heart gives in and that's where we are now so what's and that's where we are now so what's and that's where we are now so what's happened in countries like the United happened in countries like the United happened in countries like the United Kingdom the the United States is people Kingdom the the United States is people Kingdom the the United States is people have this expectation of this is the have this expectation of this is the have this expectation of this is the welfare that I need this is what we're welfare that I need this is what we're welfare that I need this is what we're going to spend on our military this is going to spend on our military this is going to spend on our military this is what we're going to spend on public what we're going to spend on public what we're going to spend on public services but that because you're not services but that because you're not services but that because you're not producing like you used to and this producing like you used to and this producing like you used to and this financialization model of the world is financialization model of the world is financialization model of the world is not working like it used to we're not working like it used to we're not working like it used to we're borrowing money so borrowing money so borrowing money so the the US debt has just ridden at an the the US debt has just ridden at an the the US debt has just ridden at an absolutely astronomical number now as absolutely astronomical number now as absolutely astronomical number now as interest rates then went up because of interest rates then went up because of interest rates then went up because of covid because you know printing money covid because you know printing money covid because you know printing money eventually is eventually is eventually is inflationary uh all of a sudden this inflationary uh all of a sudden this inflationary uh all of a sudden this sort of beautiful worlds where we had sort of beautiful worlds where we had sort of beautiful worlds where we had globalization America controlled the globalization America controlled the globalization America controlled the world you didn't have a trade War so world you didn't have a trade War so world you didn't have a trade War so things from China was cheap all of a things from China was cheap all of a things from China was cheap all of a sudden that's changed globalization's sudden that's changed globalization's sudden that's changed globalization's changing so this sort of incredible changing so this sort of incredible changing so this sort of incredible seemingly period from you know maybe the seemingly period from you know maybe the seemingly period from you know maybe the early 90s to 24 20 2008 and maybe push early 90s to 24 20 2008 and maybe push early 90s to 24 20 2008 and maybe push it into 2014 where we were far more it into 2014 where we were far more it into 2014 where we were far more prosperous than we realized that's gone prosperous than we realized that's gone prosperous than we realized that's gone so even if Elon Musk I heard I heard an so even if Elon Musk I heard I heard an so even if Elon Musk I heard I heard an analys the other day someone break down analys the other day someone break down analys the other day someone break down the numbers even if Elon Musk just

the numbers even if Elon Musk just the numbers even if Elon Musk just slashes incredible amounts of you know slashes incredible amounts of you know slashes incredible amounts of you know corruption and expenditure or whatever corruption and expenditure or whatever corruption and expenditure or whatever he finds it with Doge initiative it's he finds it with Doge initiative it's he finds it with Doge initiative it's still not enough to pay back this still not enough to pay back this still not enough to pay back this incredibly massive uh uh debt that the incredibly massive uh uh debt that the incredibly massive uh uh debt that the US has incurred the interest pay on that US has incurred the interest pay on that US has incurred the interest pay on that alone I think are possibly already alone I think are possibly already alone I think are possibly already bigger than what's being spent on the US bigger than what's being spent on the US bigger than what's being spent on the US military you know Britain labor gets in military you know Britain labor gets in military you know Britain labor gets in in Britain and Rachel re the chancellor in Britain and Rachel re the chancellor in Britain and Rachel re the chancellor ex cheer basically looks at the books ex cheer basically looks at the books ex cheer basically looks at the books and realize you Britain's essentially and realize you Britain's essentially and realize you Britain's essentially broke you know um so you have a broke you know um so you have a broke you know um so you have a population who uh the sort of social population who uh the sort of social population who uh the sort of social contract we will follow you we'll obey contract we will follow you we'll obey contract we will follow you we'll obey your rules we'll have investment in this your rules we'll have investment in this your rules we'll have investment in this country because I can get a house I can country because I can get a house I can country because I can get a house I can get a a hospital bed etc that's get a a hospital bed etc that's get a a hospital bed etc that's radically breaking down now and we're radically breaking down now and we're radically breaking down now and we're only at the beginning of this so you only at the beginning of this so you only at the beginning of this so you know something I I I ask you know like know something I I I ask you know like know something I I I ask you know like something I I posit is if you're Pro something I I posit is if you're Pro something I I posit is if you're Pro Trump or you know think America's now in Trump or you know think America's now in Trump or you know think America's now in a different place um it's going to be a different place um it's going to be a different place um it's going to be really hard for Trump to deal with this really hard for Trump to deal with this really hard for Trump to deal with this debt issue this is the biggest issue you debt issue this is the biggest issue you debt issue this is the biggest issue you know and uh how do you get that down you know and uh how do you get that down you know and uh how do you get that down you know you either do it two ways you start know you either do it two ways you start know you either do it two ways you start to become incredibly productive and make to become incredibly productive and make to become incredibly productive and make a lot of money or you cut Services the a lot of money or you cut Services the a lot of money or you cut Services the hope that they're hoping that the hope that they're hoping that the hope that they're hoping that the million dollar sort of bet not million million dollar sort of bet not million million dollar sort of bet not million dollar trillion dollar bet is that dollar trillion dollar bet is that dollar trillion dollar bet is that Silicon Valley and Ai and Quantum Silicon Valley and Ai and Quantum Silicon Valley and Ai and Quantum Computing will bring about a massive Computing will bring about a massive Computing will bring about a massive productivity boost um now the problem productivity boost um now the problem productivity boost um now the problem with that is just say that happens

with that is just say that happens with that is just say that happens that's also going to see a massive uh that's also going to see a massive uh that's also going to see a massive uh Industrial Revolution scale of Industrial Revolution scale of Industrial Revolution scale of displacement of people from their displacement of people from their displacement of people from their current workplaces you know so that current workplaces you know so that current workplaces you know so that would mean lawyers gone oh yeah lawyers would mean lawyers gone oh yeah lawyers would mean lawyers gone oh yeah lawyers accounting I mean wiped out and unre accounting I mean wiped out and unre accounting I mean wiped out and unre unrecognizable yeah um so uh yeah unrecognizable yeah um so uh yeah unrecognizable yeah um so uh yeah so the audience has probably already so the audience has probably already so the audience has probably already punched trunk of a amount of changes punched trunk of a amount of changes punched trunk of a amount of changes yeah yeah we're going to get to Hope yeah yeah we're going to get to Hope yeah yeah we're going to get to Hope guys okay just hang on so but um guys okay just hang on so but um guys okay just hang on so but um overwhelmingly the economic system as we overwhelmingly the economic system as we overwhelmingly the economic system as we have it now is not working trying to have it now is not working trying to have it now is not working trying to realize is this China is looking at you realize is this China is looking at you realize is this China is looking at you know uh different economic models it's know uh different economic models it's know uh different economic models it's playing with different stuff and she's playing with different stuff and she's playing with different stuff and she's got this dual circulation economy that got this dual circulation economy that got this dual circulation economy that they're calling it um but no one has they're calling it um but no one has they're calling it um but no one has solved this problem and no one wanted to solved this problem and no one wanted to solved this problem and no one wanted to talk about it really in the US election talk about it really in the US election talk about it really in the US election both both sides were ignoring it um you both both sides were ignoring it um you both both sides were ignoring it um you know but you see I think it was Mark know but you see I think it was Mark know but you see I think it was Mark Carney in you know he's running for the Carney in you know he's running for the Carney in you know he's running for the Justin Trudeau's party you know came in Justin Trudeau's party you know came in Justin Trudeau's party you know came in and said Canada it's going to get worse and said Canada it's going to get worse and said Canada it's going to get worse you know K came in and said Britain's you know K came in and said Britain's you know K came in and said Britain's going to get worse our our productivity going to get worse our our productivity going to get worse our our productivity is tanking it's just awful in Canada is tanking it's just awful in Canada is tanking it's just awful in Canada yeah we'll know we'll know about the yeah we'll know we'll know about the yeah we'll know we'll know about the time this airs what's happening in our time this airs what's happening in our time this airs what's happening in our country so yeah please do I forgot to country so yeah please do I forgot to country so yeah please do I forgot to but wait there's more there's more the but wait there's more there's more the but wait there's more there's more the other thing too is we have plummeting other thing too is we have plummeting other thing too is we have plummeting fertility crisis across the world yeah fertility crisis across the world yeah fertility crisis across the world yeah so you know people are not having so you know people are not having so you know people are not having children and interestingly that's even a children and interestingly that's even a children and interestingly that's even a lot of people say well if this economic lot of people say well if this economic lot of people say well if this economic problem was dealt with um if people problem was dealt with um if people problem was dealt with um if people could buy a house that have more could buy a house that have more could buy a house that have more children there's increasing data coming

children there's increasing data coming children there's increasing data coming out that that's not true and it's even out that that's not true and it's even out that that's not true and it's even happening in countries where people have happening in countries where people have happening in countries where people have got access to housing and stuff like got access to housing and stuff like got access to housing and stuff like that but that also means that the GDP of that but that also means that the GDP of that but that also means that the GDP of your country rapidly goes down as your your country rapidly goes down as your your country rapidly goes down as your population ages right as your population population ages right as your population population ages right as your population ages because you're going to pay for ages because you're going to pay for ages because you're going to pay for more you know uh elderly services and so more you know uh elderly services and so more you know uh elderly services and so on so yeah the economy is in significant on so yeah the economy is in significant on so yeah the economy is in significant issue you know and people are going to issue you know and people are going to issue you know and people are going to have to experiment I'm hopeful that have to experiment I'm hopeful that have to experiment I'm hopeful that there's a solution but there's going to there's a solution but there's going to there's a solution but there's going to be pain to get to the solution why do be pain to get to the solution why do be pain to get to the solution why do you think fertility is dropping as much you think fertility is dropping as much you think fertility is dropping as much as it is it's a it's a fascinating thing as it is it's a it's a fascinating thing as it is it's a it's a fascinating thing that not enough people are talking about that not enough people are talking about that not enough people are talking about I mean I literally heard like you know I mean I literally heard like you know I mean I literally heard like you know we I think I said this on our podcast we I think I said this on our podcast we I think I said this on our podcast the other day you know you think of the other day you know you think of the other day you know you think of these ancient civilization the caragan these ancient civilization the caragan these ancient civilization the caragan you know who Rome destroyed and they you know who Rome destroyed and they you know who Rome destroyed and they don't exist anymore don't exist anymore don't exist anymore and this person was basically saying and this person was basically saying and this person was basically saying think of some of those ancient people think of some of those ancient people think of some of those ancient people well soon Japanese people are going to well soon Japanese people are going to well soon Japanese people are going to become there Koreans Italians are not become there Koreans Italians are not become there Koreans Italians are not going to exist in a few Generations like going to exist in a few Generations like going to exist in a few Generations like literally will be extinguished no literally will be extinguished no literally will be extinguished no Japanese people on Earth you know in Japanese people on Earth you know in Japanese people on Earth you know in four generation I don't know the exact four generation I don't know the exact four generation I don't know the exact thing you know um you know Korea is thing you know um you know Korea is thing you know um you know Korea is basically and Japan not going to be basically and Japan not going to be basically and Japan not going to be sustainable as a country in a generation sustainable as a country in a generation sustainable as a country in a generation and you know the answer people go well and you know the answer people go well and you know the answer people go well we do large scale immigration the we do large scale immigration the we do large scale immigration the problem is a lot of the countries that problem is a lot of the countries that problem is a lot of the countries that we're bringing people from are now we're bringing people from are now we're bringing people from are now starting to go through a fertility starting to go through a fertility starting to go through a fertility crisis um you we do seem to have crisis um you we do seem to have crisis um you we do seem to have something that you know there's something that you know there's something that you know there's different reasons Paul Mand is an different reasons Paul Mand is an different reasons Paul Mand is an interesting writer on demographics interesting writer on demographics interesting writer on demographics written a lot about this um people written a lot about this um people written a lot about this um people haven't got to the solution of it um but haven't got to the solution of it um but haven't got to the solution of it um but I do think some of it's economics some

I do think some of it's economics some I do think some of it's economics some of its of its of its lifestyle um some of it's I think hope lifestyle um some of it's I think hope lifestyle um some of it's I think hope for the future um but part of the for the future um but part of the for the future um but part of the problem is that as an economy improves problem is that as an economy improves problem is that as an economy improves it starts to kill fertility seems to be it starts to kill fertility seems to be it starts to kill fertility seems to be the simplest problem the Richer you get the simplest problem the Richer you get the simplest problem the Richer you get the fewer children you have yes and our the fewer children you have yes and our the fewer children you have yes and our relative level of affluence is relative level of affluence is relative level of affluence is significantly higher despite all of significantly higher despite all of significantly higher despite all of these problems we're talking about you these problems we're talking about you these problems we're talking about you go back 70 years at least from my go back 70 years at least from my go back 70 years at least from my reading um the average American actually reading um the average American actually reading um the average American actually has much more than the Leave it to has much more than the Leave it to has much more than the Leave it to Beaver era of the 1950s is that true Beaver era of the 1950s is that true Beaver era of the 1950s is that true 100% 100% you know and you're like we've 100% 100% you know and you're like we've 100% 100% you know and you're like we've got phones we're on the internet here we got phones we're on the internet here we got phones we're on the internet here we you know like that but I think it's more you know like that but I think it's more you know like that but I think it's more the shock of when that's your Baseline the shock of when that's your Baseline the shock of when that's your Baseline and it begins to decline well I was and it begins to decline well I was and it begins to decline well I was thinking we got married in 1990 I thinking we got married in 1990 I thinking we got married in 1990 I remember one of the purchases we made remember one of the purchases we made remember one of the purchases we made was a home computer which was a thing in was a home computer which was a thing in was a home computer which was a thing in 1990 and it was it was $3,000 in $1 1990 1990 and it was it was $3,000 in $1 1990 1990 and it was it was $3,000 in $1 1990 now run that through some inflation now run that through some inflation now run that through some inflation calculator that's probably 78,000 today calculator that's probably 78,000 today calculator that's probably 78,000 today Mark if I drop seven or eight grand on a Mark if I drop seven or eight grand on a Mark if I drop seven or eight grand on a computer today I'd have a heart attack computer today I'd have a heart attack computer today I'd have a heart attack it's like there's still anywhere between it's like there's still anywhere between it's like there's still anywhere between $1,200 and $3,000 depending on how $1,200 and $3,000 depending on how $1,200 and $3,000 depending on how torqued out you want the thing to be so torqued out you want the thing to be so torqued out you want the thing to be so I mean as as things are getting better I mean as as things are getting better I mean as as things are getting better things are also getting worse as things things are also getting worse as things things are also getting worse as things are getting worse things are getting are getting worse things are getting are getting worse things are getting better so the economy's broken and I've better so the economy's broken and I've better so the economy's broken and I've asked this question before I remember asked this question before I remember asked this question before I remember talking to Ken Costa who was on the talking to Ken Costa who was on the talking to Ken Costa who was on the podcast last year about this with the podcast last year about this with the podcast last year about this with the trillion dollar wealth

trillion dollar wealth trillion dollar wealth transfer but you know when you think transfer but you know when you think transfer but you know when you think about the only way you're getting into a about the only way you're getting into a about the only way you're getting into a house now is you're incredibly have a house now is you're incredibly have a house now is you're incredibly have a great job or you have parents who are great job or you have parents who are great job or you have parents who are helping you and that breaks down very helping you and that breaks down very helping you and that breaks down very quickly because most people don't have quickly because most people don't have quickly because most people don't have parents who can help them because their parents who can help them because their parents who can help them because their parents themselves are struggling in parents themselves are struggling in parents themselves are struggling in their 50s and their 50s and their 50s and 60s and I wonder are we moving back to a 60s and I wonder are we moving back to a 60s and I wonder are we moving back to a feudal society you've got the trillion feudal society you've got the trillion feudal society you've got the trillion dollar wealth transfer um and basically dollar wealth transfer um and basically dollar wealth transfer um and basically the premise of a feudal society is that the premise of a feudal society is that the premise of a feudal society is that a small concentration of people own a small concentration of people own a small concentration of people own everything you look at private Equity everything you look at private Equity everything you look at private Equity private Equity didn't really exist 20 private Equity didn't really exist 20 private Equity didn't really exist 20 years ago 25 years ago it now owns so years ago 25 years ago it now owns so years ago 25 years ago it now owns so much all the real estate in your much all the real estate in your much all the real estate in your neighborhood is being bought up in the neighborhood is being bought up in the neighborhood is being bought up in the houses by private Equity businesses you houses by private Equity businesses you houses by private Equity businesses you know your local plumbing repair person know your local plumbing repair person know your local plumbing repair person probably going to get bought out by probably going to get bought out by probably going to get bought out by private Equity I was reading a piece the private Equity I was reading a piece the private Equity I was reading a piece the other day about fire trucks apparently other day about fire trucks apparently other day about fire trucks apparently it is very hard to get a firetruck in it is very hard to get a firetruck in it is very hard to get a firetruck in the United States and the reason is they the United States and the reason is they the United States and the reason is they used to be independently manufactured used to be independently manufactured used to be independently manufactured locally you know you'd have a firetruck locally you know you'd have a firetruck locally you know you'd have a firetruck Factory in Indiana another one in Factory in Indiana another one in Factory in Indiana another one in Montana another one in Georgia Etc Montana another one in Georgia Etc Montana another one in Georgia Etc private Equity got into the game about a private Equity got into the game about a private Equity got into the game about a decade ago bought up all these small decade ago bought up all these small decade ago bought up all these small companies now they've jacked the prices companies now they've jacked the prices companies now they've jacked the prices stripped the companies and you got a stripped the companies and you got a stripped the companies and you got a wait you got like two models it's like wait you got like two models it's like wait you got like two models it's like Boeing and Airbus basically rule the Boeing and Airbus basically rule the Boeing and Airbus basically rule the skies right as far as aircraft skies right as far as aircraft skies right as far as aircraft manufacturers go and you're going to see manufacturers go and you're going to see manufacturers go and you're going to see that more and more and that means it's that more and more and that means it's that more and more and that means it's harder and harder to really get a start harder and harder to really get a start harder and harder to really get a start in the world I'd love any thoughts you in the world I'd love any thoughts you in the world I'd love any thoughts you have on are we going back into a feudal

have on are we going back into a feudal have on are we going back into a feudal era or a robber baron era I think so and era or a robber baron era I think so and era or a robber baron era I think so and the robber Baron's another good analogy the robber Baron's another good analogy the robber Baron's another good analogy of of this moment you know so yeah of of this moment you know so yeah of of this moment you know so yeah there's two books uh Joel cotkin is sort there's two books uh Joel cotkin is sort there's two books uh Joel cotkin is sort of on the right and then Janis vakis the of on the right and then Janis vakis the of on the right and then Janis vakis the Greek Economist is sort of is's on the Greek Economist is sort of is's on the Greek Economist is sort of is's on the left have both said that this is left have both said that this is left have both said that this is happening you know and they've called it happening you know and they've called it happening you know and they've called it um I think calls it Neo feudalism and um I think calls it Neo feudalism and um I think calls it Neo feudalism and yakis calls it techn feudalism and I yakis calls it techn feudalism and I yakis calls it techn feudalism and I like that idea and he says that you know like that idea and he says that you know like that idea and he says that you know in a sense the feudal Baron you lived on in a sense the feudal Baron you lived on in a sense the feudal Baron you lived on their land you were like a it was a their land you were like a it was a their land you were like a it was a rentier you know thing so you paid rents rentier you know thing so you paid rents rentier you know thing so you paid rents for everything and that's increasingly for everything and that's increasingly for everything and that's increasingly happening you know like and you brought happening you know like and you brought happening you know like and you brought them your crops right yes exactly you them your crops right yes exactly you them your crops right yes exactly you know we do that now with with the know we do that now with with the know we do that now with with the internet you know apps are increasingly internet you know apps are increasingly internet you know apps are increasingly rental things they're talking about you rental things they're talking about you rental things they're talking about you won't own a car in the future you'll won't own a car in the future you'll won't own a car in the future you'll rent a sort of autonomous vehicle yeah rent a sort of autonomous vehicle yeah rent a sort of autonomous vehicle yeah BMW trying to uh charge you for your BMW trying to uh charge you for your BMW trying to uh charge you for your seat heaters a couple years ago remember seat heaters a couple years ago remember seat heaters a couple years ago remember that it's like a monthly subscription that it's like a monthly subscription that it's like a monthly subscription Jeep is now running ads on your home on Jeep is now running ads on your home on Jeep is now running ads on your home on on that um display in your in your Jeep on that um display in your in your Jeep on that um display in your in your Jeep they're running ads on it it's like no I they're running ads on it it's like no I they're running ads on it it's like no I I just want Google Maps like get off of I just want Google Maps like get off of I just want Google Maps like get off of my get off get out of my car sorry just my get off get out of my car sorry just my get off get out of my car sorry just totally it's you know and you know yarus totally it's you know and you know yarus totally it's you know and you know yarus is even goes as far and he's a left is even goes as far and he's a left is even goes as far and he's a left Winger and he got like really hit by the Winger and he got like really hit by the Winger and he got like really hit by the left he would argue that it's not left he would argue that it's not left he would argue that it's not capitalism anymore because in capitalism capitalism anymore because in capitalism capitalism anymore because in capitalism there's competition and he talks about there's competition and he talks about there's competition and he talks about you know Amazon so he says imagine going you know Amazon so he says imagine going you know Amazon so he says imagine going to a village where you walk in and to a village where you walk in and to a village where you walk in and there's a butcher and a baker and a

there's a butcher and a baker and a there's a butcher and a baker and a grocer and everyone is owned by the same grocer and everyone is owned by the same grocer and everyone is owned by the same business who's setting the same prices business who's setting the same prices business who's setting the same prices and this is increasing what's happening and this is increasing what's happening and this is increasing what's happening with Amazon you know and things like teu with Amazon you know and things like teu with Amazon you know and things like teu and Sheen that China has built is really and Sheen that China has built is really and Sheen that China has built is really them trying to build a version of that them trying to build a version of that them trying to build a version of that to under undercut um Amazon and so you to under undercut um Amazon and so you to under undercut um Amazon and so you know this is why Trump also banned you know this is why Trump also banned you know this is why Trump also banned you know one of the first things he did was know one of the first things he did was know one of the first things he did was ban packages or something from the post ban packages or something from the post ban packages or something from the post office under office under office under $500 um you know like the the post $500 um you know like the the post $500 um you know like the the post office office in the US stopped this was office office in the US stopped this was office office in the US stopped this was purely because of uh the way that Teemu purely because of uh the way that Teemu purely because of uh the way that Teemu was undercutting Amazon and so you know was undercutting Amazon and so you know was undercutting Amazon and so you know so there's this interesting Dynamic so there's this interesting Dynamic so there's this interesting Dynamic where you know I think we're heading where you know I think we're heading where you know I think we're heading into I mean the wealth transfer from into I mean the wealth transfer from into I mean the wealth transfer from 2020 to now is phenomenal and you're 2020 to now is phenomenal and you're 2020 to now is phenomenal and you're 100% right you know these firms like 100% right you know these firms like 100% right you know these firms like Blackstone um Vanguard that's it they're Blackstone um Vanguard that's it they're Blackstone um Vanguard that's it they're just buying up absolutely everything so just buying up absolutely everything so just buying up absolutely everything so the Richer getting richer and the poor the Richer getting richer and the poor the Richer getting richer and the poor are getting poorer um is a dynamic that are getting poorer um is a dynamic that are getting poorer um is a dynamic that you see in a feudal society and and you see in a feudal society and and you see in a feudal society and and going back just real quickly to the going back just real quickly to the going back just real quickly to the Robert Baron era which is at the end of Robert Baron era which is at the end of Robert Baron era which is at the end of the 19th century in the US I just read the 19th century in the US I just read the 19th century in the US I just read and that's what Big Oil big Railway big and that's what Big Oil big Railway big and that's what Big Oil big Railway big steel JP Morgan these people you know steel JP Morgan these people you know steel JP Morgan these people you know and uh Matthew Jo Josephson wrote a book and uh Matthew Jo Josephson wrote a book and uh Matthew Jo Josephson wrote a book about that called the Rober Barons I about that called the Rober Barons I about that called the Rober Barons I think in 1932 I just reread that and it think in 1932 I just reread that and it think in 1932 I just reread that and it felt very similar to now an expansive us felt very similar to now an expansive us felt very similar to now an expansive us taking the Panama Canal Puerto Rico taking the Panama Canal Puerto Rico taking the Panama Canal Puerto Rico Philippines um you know we're returning Philippines um you know we're returning Philippines um you know we're returning to some sort of era that has parallels to some sort of era that has parallels to some sort of era that has parallels to that I to that I to that I think so this can be very depressing if

think so this can be very depressing if think so this can be very depressing if you do not have depression and anxiety you do not have depression and anxiety you do not have depression and anxiety prior to turning on this podcast you now prior to turning on this podcast you now prior to turning on this podcast you now have it but I wanted to have this have it but I wanted to have this have it but I wanted to have this conversation number one because I am conversation number one because I am conversation number one because I am sensing there's something really going sensing there's something really going sensing there's something really going on but it's really hard to figure it out on but it's really hard to figure it out on but it's really hard to figure it out day-to-day Nobody Does this better than day-to-day Nobody Does this better than day-to-day Nobody Does this better than you do you do you do Mark what have we not talked about in Mark what have we not talked about in Mark what have we not talked about in terms of the shifts that we're seeing we terms of the shifts that we're seeing we terms of the shifts that we're seeing we talked about political we talked about talked about political we talked about talked about political we talked about geography we talked about economics geography we talked about economics geography we talked about economics talked about feudalism talked about feudalism talked about feudalism monarchical monarchical monarchical Tendencies what else what else are you Tendencies what else what else are you Tendencies what else what else are you seeing the thing we're missing in the seeing the thing we're missing in the seeing the thing we're missing in the midst of this is a spiritual Awakening midst of this is a spiritual Awakening midst of this is a spiritual Awakening that's happening you know we we hinted a that's happening you know we we hinted a that's happening you know we we hinted a little bit there um the spiritual little bit there um the spiritual little bit there um the spiritual journey that people like Joe Rogan have journey that people like Joe Rogan have journey that people like Joe Rogan have gone on is all of a positive no but all gone on is all of a positive no but all gone on is all of a positive no but all of a sudden in the mainstream you have of a sudden in the mainstream you have of a sudden in the mainstream you have people talking about psychedelics and people talking about psychedelics and people talking about psychedelics and mushrooms and spiritual micro do massive mushrooms and spiritual micro do massive mushrooms and spiritual micro do massive um UFOs uaps have gone from this Fringe um UFOs uaps have gone from this Fringe um UFOs uaps have gone from this Fringe thing to now being spoken about in thing to now being spoken about in thing to now being spoken about in Senate subcommittees and even following Senate subcommittees and even following Senate subcommittees and even following the conversation around that and again the conversation around that and again the conversation around that and again to this just sounds wacky I'm just going to this just sounds wacky I'm just going to this just sounds wacky I'm just going to say that but you've got like the to say that but you've got like the to say that but you've got like the Silicon Valley gu into this this is a Silicon Valley gu into this this is a Silicon Valley gu into this this is a huge cultural phenomenon now and the UFO huge cultural phenomenon now and the UFO huge cultural phenomenon now and the UFO conversation's gone from or UAP conversation's gone from or UAP conversation's gone from or UAP conversation's gone from oh wow here's conversation's gone from oh wow here's conversation's gone from oh wow here's this video that a American fighter pilot this video that a American fighter pilot this video that a American fighter pilot took of this Tic Tac like drone thing to took of this Tic Tac like drone thing to took of this Tic Tac like drone thing to we're now summoning these orbs the whole we're now summoning these orbs the whole we're now summoning these orbs the whole conversation has G around it's now looks conversation has G around it's now looks conversation has G around it's now looks like the New Age movement and psychic like the New Age movement and psychic like the New Age movement and psychic movement or even spiritualism in the movement or even spiritualism in the movement or even spiritualism in the 19th century you know so you I just was

19th century you know so you I just was 19th century you know so you I just was seeing a photo online of an event at the seeing a photo online of an event at the seeing a photo online of an event at the aselin retreat in big S which has been aselin retreat in big S which has been aselin retreat in big S which has been so infuential throughout American so infuential throughout American so infuential throughout American history of like the human potential history of like the human potential history of like the human potential movement meditation yoga all this sort movement meditation yoga all this sort movement meditation yoga all this sort of stuff gastal psychology and you know of stuff gastal psychology and you know of stuff gastal psychology and you know there's all these Intelligence Officers there's all these Intelligence Officers there's all these Intelligence Officers and like celebrities and psychologists and like celebrities and psychologists and like celebrities and psychologists summoning orbs you know psychically to summoning orbs you know psychically to summoning orbs you know psychically to come and visit them what does that mean come and visit them what does that mean come and visit them what does that mean sorry I'm not not familiar with that and sorry I'm not not familiar with that and sorry I'm not not familiar with that and also can you just Define UAP I'm still also can you just Define UAP I'm still also can you just Define UAP I'm still learning that it's not UFOs anymore they learning that it's not UFOs anymore they learning that it's not UFOs anymore they just Chang the atmology yeah so it's just Chang the atmology yeah so it's just Chang the atmology yeah so it's unidentified aerial phenomenon is is unidentified aerial phenomenon is is unidentified aerial phenomenon is is what it is and you know so basically what it is and you know so basically what it is and you know so basically 2017 there was an article in the New 2017 there was an article in the New 2017 there was an article in the New York Times by I think it was blol and York Times by I think it was blol and York Times by I think it was blol and Leslie Keane and these people which just Leslie Keane and these people which just Leslie Keane and these people which just like the US is the government is seeing like the US is the government is seeing like the US is the government is seeing you know these these things and they you know these these things and they you know these these things and they don't know what they are and there's a don't know what they are and there's a don't know what they are and there's a whole bunch of conjecture is this just a whole bunch of conjecture is this just a whole bunch of conjecture is this just a cover for military Tech and so on but cover for military Tech and so on but cover for military Tech and so on but this conversation has just grown so you this conversation has just grown so you this conversation has just grown so you know have members of Congress and and know have members of Congress and and know have members of Congress and and Senate who are deep Believers and of the Senate who are deep Believers and of the Senate who are deep Believers and of the US intelligence and military industrial US intelligence and military industrial US intelligence and military industrial complex so a deep believe is that there complex so a deep believe is that there complex so a deep believe is that there are UFOs or uaps out there they're are UFOs or uaps out there they're are UFOs or uaps out there they're trying to contact does and if you follow trying to contact does and if you follow trying to contact does and if you follow this conversation which is getting this conversation which is getting this conversation which is getting bigger and bigger they're on Joe Rogan bigger and bigger they're on Joe Rogan bigger and bigger they're on Joe Rogan they're on all these podcasts um you they're on all these podcasts um you they're on all these podcasts um you know the conversation just the last know the conversation just the last know the conversation just the last little bit has gone from here a ship little bit has gone from here a ship little bit has gone from here a ship Landing to the literal languag is these Landing to the literal languag is these Landing to the literal languag is these are Angelic and demonic beings they're are Angelic and demonic beings they're are Angelic and demonic beings they're interdimensional they're not from other interdimensional they're not from other interdimensional they're not from other planets and we need to spiritually planets and we need to spiritually planets and we need to spiritually connect with them and you know this I've connect with them and you know this I've connect with them and you know this I've seen video so so sorry let me just stop seen video so so sorry let me just stop seen video so so sorry let me just stop you Angelic and demonic like these

you Angelic and demonic like these you Angelic and demonic like these aren't just neutral forces like Close aren't just neutral forces like Close aren't just neutral forces like Close Encounters of the Third kind Al there Encounters of the Third kind Al there Encounters of the Third kind Al there Angelic and demonic forces that many Angelic and demonic forces that many Angelic and demonic forces that many people are saying were actually being people are saying were actually being people are saying were actually being visited by yes this is the language now visited by yes this is the language now visited by yes this is the language now you know someone like dulka who's a you know someone like dulka who's a you know someone like dulka who's a religious sociologist who wrote This religious sociologist who wrote This religious sociologist who wrote This Book American Cosmic you know and people Book American Cosmic you know and people Book American Cosmic you know and people like her have taken this towards a like her have taken this towards a like her have taken this towards a spiritual Direction so it's no longer spiritual Direction so it's no longer spiritual Direction so it's no longer yeah like farma Joe has a UFO land in yeah like farma Joe has a UFO land in yeah like farma Joe has a UFO land in his field it's now you know a bunch of his field it's now you know a bunch of his field it's now you know a bunch of Silicon Valley people and CIA agents and Silicon Valley people and CIA agents and Silicon Valley people and CIA agents and others like having circles at big s to others like having circles at big s to others like having circles at big s to summon orbs by psychically connecting summon orbs by psychically connecting summon orbs by psychically connecting with them is this is a big deal now and with them is this is a big deal now and with them is this is a big deal now and you got members of Congress who are you got members of Congress who are you got members of Congress who are having subcommittees there was I think having subcommittees there was I think having subcommittees there was I think it's not sure if she's a congresswoman it's not sure if she's a congresswoman it's not sure if she's a congresswoman or a senator Luna I forgot her first or a senator Luna I forgot her first or a senator Luna I forgot her first name and she's got this disclosure thing name and she's got this disclosure thing name and she's got this disclosure thing where they're going to release the where they're going to release the where they're going to release the secrets on JFK and MLK and rfk's secrets on JFK and MLK and rfk's secrets on JFK and MLK and rfk's assassinations and UFOs you know so assassinations and UFOs you know so assassinations and UFOs you know so there's serious Believers is it a UFO there's serious Believers is it a UFO there's serious Believers is it a UFO religion I don't know um but what it is religion I don't know um but what it is religion I don't know um but what it is is it's it's a further evidence that in is it's it's a further evidence that in is it's it's a further evidence that in the culture the spiritual conversation the culture the spiritual conversation the culture the spiritual conversation so just say you're a 26 year old guy and so just say you're a 26 year old guy and so just say you're a 26 year old guy and you listen to the podcast that everyone you listen to the podcast that everyone you listen to the podcast that everyone else does you're not listening to else does you're not listening to else does you're not listening to podcast and Joe Rogan about ancient podcast and Joe Rogan about ancient podcast and Joe Rogan about ancient civilization apocalypses which Graham civilization apocalypses which Graham civilization apocalypses which Graham Hancock then you listen to next week and Hancock then you listen to next week and Hancock then you listen to next week and at someone talking about the spiritual at someone talking about the spiritual at someone talking about the spiritual experiences they had on a Huska and then experiences they had on a Huska and then experiences they had on a Huska and then the next week you're talking about the next week you're talking about the next week you're talking about people summoning orbs and uaps like this people summoning orbs and uaps like this people summoning orbs and uaps like this is full mystical spiritual World stuff is full mystical spiritual World stuff is full mystical spiritual World stuff you know and alongside that you know the

you know and alongside that you know the you know and alongside that you know the times in London just had a series on gen times in London just had a series on gen times in London just had a series on gen Z gen Z and you know they had one over Z gen Z and you know they had one over Z gen Z and you know they had one over the weekend where but gen Zed's the weekend where but gen Zed's the weekend where but gen Zed's spirituality like they see themselves in spirituality like they see themselves in spirituality like they see themselves in chrisan as very spiritual and very chrisan as very spiritual and very chrisan as very spiritual and very religious yeah and you know though it religious yeah and you know though it religious yeah and you know though it was a fascinating article because was a fascinating article because was a fascinating article because written by Millennial and who' sort of written by Millennial and who' sort of written by Millennial and who' sort of deconstructed and she was then trying to deconstructed and she was then trying to deconstructed and she was then trying to deal with the fact that Jen Zed was deal with the fact that Jen Zed was deal with the fact that Jen Zed was going to church and was like just going to church and was like just going to church and was like just totally normal about it and you know I totally normal about it and you know I totally normal about it and you know I had some of my friends churches these had some of my friends churches these had some of my friends churches these young people were going to and sort of young people were going to and sort of young people were going to and sort of like this very alive you know Christian like this very alive you know Christian like this very alive you know Christian scene that's growing in London and the scene that's growing in London and the scene that's growing in London and the UK and so in the midst of this there I UK and so in the midst of this there I UK and so in the midst of this there I know and for years my sort of Mantra has know and for years my sort of Mantra has know and for years my sort of Mantra has been that yes things might get get worse been that yes things might get get worse been that yes things might get get worse but when things get worse socially but when things get worse socially but when things get worse socially that's also the moment in the midst of that's also the moment in the midst of that's also the moment in the midst of these Confluence of changes that these Confluence of changes that these Confluence of changes that spiritual renewals and Awakenings happen spiritual renewals and Awakenings happen spiritual renewals and Awakenings happen when people stop looking to the idols of when people stop looking to the idols of when people stop looking to the idols of the age and they start looking to God the age and they start looking to God the age and they start looking to God when their sources of stability are gone when their sources of stability are gone when their sources of stability are gone that creates a spiritual existential that creates a spiritual existential that creates a spiritual existential conversation and I think we're 100% conversation and I think we're 100% conversation and I think we're 100% seeing that so I I believe in the midst seeing that so I I believe in the midst seeing that so I I believe in the midst of this there is this tremendous of this there is this tremendous of this there is this tremendous spiritual opportunity going on and I spiritual opportunity going on and I spiritual opportunity going on and I think we can miss that in the midst of think we can miss that in the midst of think we can miss that in the midst of it we get so thrown by all these Trends it we get so thrown by all these Trends it we get so thrown by all these Trends but in the midst of it there is you know but in the midst of it there is you know but in the midst of it there is you know if you we've seen this massive if you we've seen this massive if you we've seen this massive delegitimization of delegitimization of delegitimization of Institutions and when that happens Institutions and when that happens Institutions and when that happens people are going to start to look for people are going to start to look for people are going to start to look for meaning somewhere you know uh I think meaning somewhere you know uh I think meaning somewhere you know uh I think George Hunter said you know look for the George Hunter said you know look for the George Hunter said you know look for the gaps between Idols When people's belief

gaps between Idols When people's belief gaps between Idols When people's belief in that Idol fails they're going to up a in that Idol fails they're going to up a in that Idol fails they're going to up a new one at some stage but there's a new one at some stage but there's a new one at some stage but there's a period of disequilibrium where they're period of disequilibrium where they're period of disequilibrium where they're looking for something there are millions looking for something there are millions looking for something there are millions in that place now and we're finding in in that place now and we're finding in in that place now and we're finding in our church we're just getting people our church we're just getting people our church we're just getting people walking off the street you know coming walking off the street you know coming walking off the street you know coming in asking questions that I would have in asking questions that I would have in asking questions that I would have never thought i' be asked you know never thought i' be asked you know never thought i' be asked you know they're having spiritual experiences they're having spiritual experiences they're having spiritual experiences increasingly churches are having people increasingly churches are having people increasingly churches are having people turning up asking for Deliverance turning up asking for Deliverance turning up asking for Deliverance Ministry and even in churches with no Ministry and even in churches with no Ministry and even in churches with no tradition of Deliverance Ministry tradition of Deliverance Ministry tradition of Deliverance Ministry because these spiritual realities are because these spiritual realities are because these spiritual realities are now part of the mainstream culture you now part of the mainstream culture you now part of the mainstream culture you may not see that if you read the New may not see that if you read the New may not see that if you read the New York Times uh you know or listen to CNN York Times uh you know or listen to CNN York Times uh you know or listen to CNN but if you're on Joe Rogan and all these but if you're on Joe Rogan and all these but if you're on Joe Rogan and all these things you're seeing this so I want to things you're seeing this so I want to things you're seeing this so I want to go there in a minute but first I want to go there in a minute but first I want to go there in a minute but first I want to touch on one other thing I've really touch on one other thing I've really touch on one other thing I've really seen I mean there's an argument and I seen I mean there's an argument and I seen I mean there's an argument and I think it's a fairly plausible argument think it's a fairly plausible argument think it's a fairly plausible argument we bounced off this this whole we bounced off this this whole we bounced off this this whole conversation in the last hour uh but the conversation in the last hour uh but the conversation in the last hour uh but the role of the New Media so even the New role of the New Media so even the New role of the New Media so even the New York Times would say sort of established York Times would say sort of established York Times would say sort of established left-wing media institution of the US left-wing media institution of the US left-wing media institution of the US it's like Joe Rogan caller daddy Dave it's like Joe Rogan caller daddy Dave it's like Joe Rogan caller daddy Dave Ramsey has 20 million people listening Ramsey has 20 million people listening Ramsey has 20 million people listening to him every week um Theo Von that won to him every week um Theo Von that won to him every week um Theo Von that won the election that's where the election the election that's where the election the election that's where the election was won and lost in the New Media was won and lost in the New Media was won and lost in the New Media basically podcasts do you want to talk a basically podcasts do you want to talk a basically podcasts do you want to talk a little bit about um YouTube social media little bit about um YouTube social media little bit about um YouTube social media influencers and where media is going I influencers and where media is going I influencers and where media is going I mean we've been talking about this under mean we've been talking about this under mean we've been talking about this under the surface for a decade now but it the surface for a decade now but it the surface for a decade now but it seems like the scales have tipped uh I'd

seems like the scales have tipped uh I'd seems like the scales have tipped uh I'd love your take on that about the New love your take on that about the New love your take on that about the New Media yeah I mean personal and you might Media yeah I mean personal and you might Media yeah I mean personal and you might have had this as well you know I had have had this as well you know I had have had this as well you know I had this like sort of shock moment you know this like sort of shock moment you know this like sort of shock moment you know I grew up watching TV here in Australia I grew up watching TV here in Australia I grew up watching TV here in Australia and um the news and you know we have SBS and um the news and you know we have SBS and um the news and you know we have SBS which is um we got two government which is um we got two government which is um we got two government channels SPS is a bit like PBS or channels SPS is a bit like PBS or channels SPS is a bit like PBS or something you know and they got some something you know and they got some something you know and they got some news programs that they put on and and news programs that they put on and and news programs that they put on and and you know their viewership has declined you know their viewership has declined you know their viewership has declined and I was maybe about six months ago I and I was maybe about six months ago I and I was maybe about six months ago I was looking at just came up on something was looking at just came up on something was looking at just came up on something ratings you know for some of these new ratings you know for some of these new ratings you know for some of these new shows that are produced by a Tex dollar shows that are produced by a Tex dollar shows that are produced by a Tex dollar and um and I looked at it and thought and um and I looked at it and thought and um and I looked at it and thought wow it was Tiny you know I was I was wow it was Tiny you know I was I was wow it was Tiny you know I was I was surprised and then the next thing was surprised and then the next thing was surprised and then the next thing was like hang on Rebuilders probably has like hang on Rebuilders probably has like hang on Rebuilders probably has more listeners in this show it just more listeners in this show it just more listeners in this show it just shocked me because I'm like I just go to shocked me because I'm like I just go to shocked me because I'm like I just go to my studio and I'm talking about stuff my studio and I'm talking about stuff my studio and I'm talking about stuff and I'm like and what plan I would have and I'm like and what plan I would have and I'm like and what plan I would have if it said to me at 16 mark one day you if it said to me at 16 mark one day you if it said to me at 16 mark one day you have a larger audience than this show have a larger audience than this show have a larger audience than this show I'm just like that that is mind to me I'm just like that that is mind to me I'm just like that that is mind to me and you know how on what planet and look and you know how on what planet and look and you know how on what planet and look I it's cheap is it I mean you've I it's cheap is it I mean you've I it's cheap is it I mean you've obviously got to pay the equipment but obviously got to pay the equipment but obviously got to pay the equipment but look here I mean I'm I'm on my iPhone look here I mean I'm I'm on my iPhone look here I mean I'm I'm on my iPhone earphones here on a on a Mac it's not earphones here on a on a Mac it's not earphones here on a on a Mac it's not exorbitant you know and the fact that exorbitant you know and the fact that exorbitant you know and the fact that you could do that so that's completely you could do that so that's completely you could do that so that's completely changed everything the one thing I would changed everything the one thing I would changed everything the one thing I would say though is there is that reality so say though is there is that reality so say though is there is that reality so there's the you know Andrew King called there's the you know Andrew King called there's the you know Andrew King called it the culture of the amateur amateurs it the culture of the amateur amateurs it the culture of the amateur amateurs Like Us in a way can can do this now but Like Us in a way can can do this now but Like Us in a way can can do this now but then there's another side of it that I then there's another side of it that I then there's another side of it that I think also what you did see was the think also what you did see was the think also what you did see was the podcast world and ecosystem politically

podcast world and ecosystem politically podcast world and ecosystem politically is also deeply aligned to Silicon is also deeply aligned to Silicon is also deeply aligned to Silicon Valley um so in a sense um you know you Valley um so in a sense um you know you Valley um so in a sense um you know you had this battle like Randolph Hurst you had this battle like Randolph Hurst you had this battle like Randolph Hurst you know in that Robert Baron period was know in that Robert Baron period was know in that Robert Baron period was owning newspapers and and controlling owning newspapers and and controlling owning newspapers and and controlling media and so on um rert Murdoch who is media and so on um rert Murdoch who is media and so on um rert Murdoch who is one of the world sort of big media Baron one of the world sort of big media Baron one of the world sort of big media Baron owns Fox News um uh he you know is an owns Fox News um uh he you know is an owns Fox News um uh he you know is an Australian but he gave up his Australian Australian but he gave up his Australian Australian but he gave up his Australian citizenship to become an American citizenship to become an American citizenship to become an American because there particular laws that only because there particular laws that only because there particular laws that only Americans can own certain media things Americans can own certain media things Americans can own certain media things that's to protect influence coming into that's to protect influence coming into that's to protect influence coming into the country uh past destroy that you the country uh past destroy that you the country uh past destroy that you know so Elon Musk we're about to know so Elon Musk we're about to know so Elon Musk we're about to announce our election here all the announce our election here all the announce our election here all the commentary about the Australian election commentary about the Australian election commentary about the Australian election is Will musk basically get himself is Will musk basically get himself is Will musk basically get himself involved in the local election so Elon involved in the local election so Elon involved in the local election so Elon Musk on his phone in between sending off Musk on his phone in between sending off Musk on his phone in between sending off a rocket can fire for tweet and that has a rocket can fire for tweet and that has a rocket can fire for tweet and that has so much influence in Australian election so much influence in Australian election so much influence in Australian election and it's happening in Germany it's and it's happening in Germany it's and it's happening in Germany it's happening in Britain blah blah so um you happening in Britain blah blah so um you happening in Britain blah blah so um you know my sense is that some of those know my sense is that some of those know my sense is that some of those podcasts though that you just mentioned podcasts though that you just mentioned podcasts though that you just mentioned not not Dave Ramsey but you know sort of not not Dave Ramsey but you know sort of not not Dave Ramsey but you know sort of some of Joe Rogan and P Von they're also some of Joe Rogan and P Von they're also some of Joe Rogan and P Von they're also the voices or the newspapers if you like the voices or the newspapers if you like the voices or the newspapers if you like of Silicon Valley and it's the the of Silicon Valley and it's the the of Silicon Valley and it's the the people networks so also what people networks so also what people networks so also what podcasts also show is the power of podcasts also show is the power of podcasts also show is the power of networks um you know so like many of the networks um you know so like many of the networks um you know so like many of the people you'd have on you know you just people you'd have on you know you just people you'd have on you know you just mentioned Ken Costa I know Ken so we're mentioned Ken Costa I know Ken so we're mentioned Ken Costa I know Ken so we're all in these oh yeah everybody know all in these oh yeah everybody know all in these oh yeah everybody know knows everybody at a certain level in knows everybody at a certain level in knows everybody at a certain level in your field it's absolutely true so they

your field it's absolutely true so they your field it's absolutely true so they forc multipliers of network dynamics of forc multipliers of network dynamics of forc multipliers of network dynamics of who you know um but I think that we're who you know um but I think that we're who you know um but I think that we're not fully here yet I mean you saw after not fully here yet I mean you saw after not fully here yet I mean you saw after the um uh election msnbc's ratings the um uh election msnbc's ratings the um uh election msnbc's ratings plummet CNN's plummeted and I think plummet CNN's plummeted and I think plummet CNN's plummeted and I think there was a Breaking of trust I think there was a Breaking of trust I think there was a Breaking of trust I think what that was that wasn't a bunch of what that was that wasn't a bunch of what that was that wasn't a bunch of trump people who were watching MSNBC trump people who were watching MSNBC trump people who were watching MSNBC that was a large part of the audience that was a large part of the audience that was a large part of the audience who either like I'm down I can't follow who either like I'm down I can't follow who either like I'm down I can't follow this anymore this exhausting or you told this anymore this exhausting or you told this anymore this exhausting or you told me that Trump was going to lose you told me that Trump was going to lose you told me that Trump was going to lose you told me this was going to happen and you guys me this was going to happen and you guys me this was going to happen and you guys were so off I do not trust you as a new were so off I do not trust you as a new were so off I do not trust you as a new source anymore so there's something in source anymore so there's something in source anymore so there's something in the personal and and it's been the personal and and it's been the personal and and it's been interesting too you know I'm sure you interesting too you know I'm sure you interesting too you know I'm sure you felt it too that you know I meet people felt it too that you know I meet people felt it too that you know I meet people I can go to another country and people I can go to another country and people I can go to another country and people come up and they're like I feel like I come up and they're like I feel like I come up and they're like I feel like I know you because they've walked around know you because they've walked around know you because they've walked around their lake with me in their ears and their lake with me in their ears and their lake with me in their ears and there's a there's a trust element with there's a there's a trust element with there's a there's a trust element with podcasts I think as well which can be podcasts I think as well which can be podcasts I think as well which can be exploited I I we're trying to follow exploited I I we're trying to follow exploited I I we're trying to follow Jesus here and we're trying to be Jesus here and we're trying to be Jesus here and we're trying to be authentic in this and be ourselves but authentic in this and be ourselves but authentic in this and be ourselves but then there's other forces which can use then there's other forces which can use then there's other forces which can use that authenticity in long-term um yeah that authenticity in long-term um yeah that authenticity in long-term um yeah so I think that the the revolution of so I think that the the revolution of so I think that the the revolution of media is not done yet um and it's going media is not done yet um and it's going media is not done yet um and it's going to be even more transformative you know to be even more transformative you know to be even more transformative you know will will some of these Legacy Media be will will some of these Legacy Media be will will some of these Legacy Media be around um in 10 years I mean interesting around um in 10 years I mean interesting around um in 10 years I mean interesting the New York Times the one side of it the New York Times the one side of it the New York Times the one side of it I'm not subscribe to New York Times I'm I'm not subscribe to New York Times I'm I'm not subscribe to New York Times I'm in Australia I got a cheap overseas deal in Australia I got a cheap overseas deal in Australia I got a cheap overseas deal one reason I did is they're reporting on one reason I did is they're reporting on one reason I did is they're reporting on what's happening in Rwanda or you know what's happening in Rwanda or you know what's happening in Rwanda or you know Burma is no one's doing that so they can

Burma is no one's doing that so they can Burma is no one's doing that so they can only report you know that they can send only report you know that they can send only report you know that they can send bar correspondents and I think that's bar correspondents and I think that's bar correspondents and I think that's really important to still have because really important to still have because really important to still have because the danger is it's just going to be a the danger is it's just going to be a the danger is it's just going to be a bunch of podcasts talking about Silicon bunch of podcasts talking about Silicon bunch of podcasts talking about Silicon Valley stuff yeah with a whole bunch of Valley stuff yeah with a whole bunch of Valley stuff yeah with a whole bunch of bros just talking about whatever they bros just talking about whatever they bros just talking about whatever they happen to think no I'm worried about happen to think no I'm worried about happen to think no I'm worried about that too we had a plane crash in Toronto that too we had a plane crash in Toronto that too we had a plane crash in Toronto earlier this year the first in years and earlier this year the first in years and earlier this year the first in years and years and years and I mean I turn to the years and years and I mean I turn to the years and years and I mean I turn to the local papers which are actually digital local papers which are actually digital local papers which are actually digital uh but there were AI generated fakes uh but there were AI generated fakes uh but there were AI generated fakes within hours there was like using social within hours there was like using social within hours there was like using social media to figure out what really happened media to figure out what really happened media to figure out what really happened is good and bad you did get some direct is good and bad you did get some direct is good and bad you did get some direct uh videos from the scene but then within uh videos from the scene but then within uh videos from the scene but then within hours there was AI fake videos from the hours there was AI fake videos from the hours there was AI fake videos from the scene and so I kind of turned to the scene and so I kind of turned to the scene and so I kind of turned to the globe in mail the Toronto Star our New globe in mail the Toronto Star our New globe in mail the Toronto Star our New York Times our uh you know USA Today not York Times our uh you know USA Today not York Times our uh you know USA Today not really but you know that's like okay really but you know that's like okay really but you know that's like okay they have actual journalists on the they have actual journalists on the they have actual journalists on the ground reporting proba what is ground reporting proba what is ground reporting proba what is reasonably did this happen did this not reasonably did this happen did this not reasonably did this happen did this not happen and I'm like what happens when happen and I'm like what happens when happen and I'm like what happens when there's no economic model for that there's no economic model for that there's no economic model for that because I'm not sending reporters on the because I'm not sending reporters on the because I'm not sending reporters on the field I don't know whether you are I field I don't know whether you are I field I don't know whether you are I don't think Rogan is um and so when old don't think Rogan is um and so when old don't think Rogan is um and so when old media completely dies truth is going to media completely dies truth is going to media completely dies truth is going to be harder than ever to discern we may we be harder than ever to discern we may we be harder than ever to discern we may we may go back to a pre-literate culture may go back to a pre-literate culture may go back to a pre-literate culture where you don't actually you know if you where you don't actually you know if you where you don't actually you know if you think about the the communication think about the the communication think about the the communication Revolution that happened with the Revolution that happened with the Revolution that happened with the printing press and the newspapers and printing press and the newspapers and printing press and the newspapers and everything if you lived 700 years ago everything if you lived 700 years ago everything if you lived 700 years ago you didn't know what was happening in you didn't know what was happening in you didn't know what was happening in another Village let alone another another Village let alone another another Village let alone another country or you know you read Neil

country or you know you read Neil country or you know you read Neil Postman amusing ourselves to death um Postman amusing ourselves to death um Postman amusing ourselves to death um prior to the invention of the telegraph prior to the invention of the telegraph prior to the invention of the telegraph the king of England might have died but the king of England might have died but the king of England might have died but you wouldn't find out if you lived in you wouldn't find out if you lived in you wouldn't find out if you lived in Nebraska until perhaps two months after Nebraska until perhaps two months after Nebraska until perhaps two months after the king died yes yes and this is mclan the king died yes yes and this is mclan the king died yes yes and this is mclan yeah yeah MCL too so yeah I think I yeah yeah MCL too so yeah I think I yeah yeah MCL too so yeah I think I think no answers just this is happening think no answers just this is happening think no answers just this is happening in real time so when you're you're the in real time so when you're you're the in real time so when you're you're the pastor of a local pastor of a local pastor of a local church this frames the anxiety and church this frames the anxiety and church this frames the anxiety and depression and the depression and the depression and the unsettling that this is what you're unsettling that this is what you're unsettling that this is what you're preaching into every week this is what preaching into every week this is what preaching into every week this is what you're feeling as a leader this is what you're feeling as a leader this is what you're feeling as a leader this is what you're preaching into every week and you're preaching into every week and you're preaching into every week and people can't articulate it they might people can't articulate it they might people can't articulate it they might not be able to Define it but this is the not be able to Define it but this is the not be able to Define it but this is the pressure that shows up when they look at pressure that shows up when they look at pressure that shows up when they look at their bank accounts when they go to work their bank accounts when they go to work their bank accounts when they go to work when they think about having kids when when they think about having kids when when they think about having kids when they're trying to make rent or think they're trying to make rent or think they're trying to make rent or think about one day possibly ever buying a about one day possibly ever buying a about one day possibly ever buying a house or affording a car this is what's house or affording a car this is what's house or affording a car this is what's going on in in the real world so and the going on in in the real world so and the going on in in the real world so and the best thing is you're also a pastor best thing is you're also a pastor best thing is you're also a pastor believe it or not talking to you I I do believe it or not talking to you I I do believe it or not talking to you I I do wonder whether you're an AI I know we've wonder whether you're an AI I know we've wonder whether you're an AI I know we've hung out in real life but like I don't hung out in real life but like I don't hung out in real life but like I don't know how we've talked about this in know how we've talked about this in know how we've talked about this in previous episodes how you collate all previous episodes how you collate all previous episodes how you collate all this information but it is this information but it is this information but it is remarkable but in your new work uh from remarkable but in your new work uh from remarkable but in your new work uh from platform to pillars you talk about a platform to pillars you talk about a platform to pillars you talk about a different and this isn't the new work different and this isn't the new work different and this isn't the new work isn't so much about what we have talked isn't so much about what we have talked isn't so much about what we have talked about for the last hour but give us the about for the last hour but give us the about for the last hour but give us the thesis of what you're hoping to see and thesis of what you're hoping to see and thesis of what you're hoping to see and this is this is a note of Hope for this is this is a note of Hope for this is this is a note of Hope for Christians and a past path

Christians and a past path Christians and a past path forward yeah so in a background it it forward yeah so in a background it it forward yeah so in a background it it was so in a sense I was like I can see was so in a sense I was like I can see was so in a sense I was like I can see these changes coming we're moving from a these changes coming we're moving from a these changes coming we're moving from a culture which was shaped by institutions culture which was shaped by institutions culture which was shaped by institutions to one shape by digital platforms but to one shape by digital platforms but to one shape by digital platforms but what is the real world implications of what is the real world implications of what is the real world implications of that for ordinary people living in this that for ordinary people living in this that for ordinary people living in this world and what I realized is it's world and what I realized is it's world and what I realized is it's pitched a vision of what is to be pitched a vision of what is to be pitched a vision of what is to be successful and that's in a sense to live successful and that's in a sense to live successful and that's in a sense to live on a platform um it's a intensified form on a platform um it's a intensified form on a platform um it's a intensified form of individualism and really the sort of of individualism and really the sort of of individualism and really the sort of new social contract is okay well we new social contract is okay well we new social contract is okay well we can't necessarily provide you a home or can't necessarily provide you a home or can't necessarily provide you a home or this or that but what we can provide you this or that but what we can provide you this or that but what we can provide you is a platform to be seen to be heard to is a platform to be seen to be heard to is a platform to be seen to be heard to be known and you know this is radically be known and you know this is radically be known and you know this is radically changed ordinary life but it's also changed ordinary life but it's also changed ordinary life but it's also radically changed leadership you know radically changed leadership you know radically changed leadership you know and I know there's many many leaders who and I know there's many many leaders who and I know there's many many leaders who listen to this podcast So leadership's listen to this podcast So leadership's listen to this podcast So leadership's Gone from something which emerges from a Gone from something which emerges from a Gone from something which emerges from a long process of development the long process of development the long process of development the development of your character of knowing development of your character of knowing development of your character of knowing people of being proven perhaps working people of being proven perhaps working people of being proven perhaps working your way up an organization through your way up an organization through your way up an organization through being a person of trust Integrity being a person of trust Integrity being a person of trust Integrity character uh to you can short circuit character uh to you can short circuit character uh to you can short circuit that you know like we said you can be that you know like we said you can be that you know like we said you can be the pastor bro with the podcast and just the pastor bro with the podcast and just the pastor bro with the podcast and just get a massive following and so instead get a massive following and so instead get a massive following and so instead of like influence influence has been of like influence influence has been of like influence influence has been equated with followership then equals equated with followership then equals equated with followership then equals influence you know and I begin to think influence you know and I begin to think influence you know and I begin to think about okay I just kept hearing platform about okay I just kept hearing platform about okay I just kept hearing platform everywhere well and there's even books everywhere well and there's even books everywhere well and there's even books sort of arguing like if you want to be a sort of arguing like if you want to be a sort of arguing like if you want to be a leader today first develop platform to leader today first develop platform to leader today first develop platform to get your message out so in a sense it get your message out so in a sense it get your message out so in a sense it disconnects you from hey we listen to disconnects you from hey we listen to disconnects you from hey we listen to that guy's content because he's shown that guy's content because he's shown that guy's content because he's shown amongst us that he has character so you

amongst us that he has character so you amongst us that he has character so you know you think about to be you know a know you think about to be you know a know you think about to be you know a leader uh you know 30 40 50 years ago leader uh you know 30 40 50 years ago leader uh you know 30 40 50 years ago maybe if you're a pastor you got you had maybe if you're a pastor you got you had maybe if you're a pastor you got you had a large Church an influential church or a large Church an influential church or a large Church an influential church or you're a theologian or you're the head you're a theologian or you're the head you're a theologian or you're the head of a seminary or par Church organization of a seminary or par Church organization of a seminary or par Church organization or you know connected some way and um or you know connected some way and um or you know connected some way and um that's there now sort of like a shortcut that's there now sort of like a shortcut that's there now sort of like a shortcut to that so I thought about this to that so I thought about this to that so I thought about this architecturally like what is a platform architecturally like what is a platform architecturally like what is a platform why is everyone talking about this and a why is everyone talking about this and a why is everyone talking about this and a platform ultimately is an architectural platform ultimately is an architectural platform ultimately is an architectural structure that's a stage and a stage was structure that's a stage and a stage was structure that's a stage and a stage was created by the ancient Greeks to give a created by the ancient Greeks to give a created by the ancient Greeks to give a little rise so that a speaker could little rise so that a speaker could little rise so that a speaker could speak in their public spaces and there speak in their public spaces and there speak in their public spaces and there was sort of a sense where the the was sort of a sense where the the was sort of a sense where the the platform LED lent authenticity to that platform LED lent authenticity to that platform LED lent authenticity to that person it said that their content is person it said that their content is person it said that their content is important this is an important person important this is an important person important this is an important person and what's happened in our age is that and what's happened in our age is that and what's happened in our age is that we've had the platform has been offered we've had the platform has been offered we've had the platform has been offered to everyone and I also began to then to everyone and I also began to then to everyone and I also began to then think about this and I thought well this think about this and I thought well this think about this and I thought well this is really interesting because it is really interesting because it is really interesting because it disconnects from character because I can disconnects from character because I can disconnects from character because I can put here this fantastic presentation put here this fantastic presentation put here this fantastic presentation online and people think what a fantastic online and people think what a fantastic online and people think what a fantastic guy but you might come and the people in guy but you might come and the people in guy but you might come and the people in my church or the people in my my church or the people in my my church or the people in my neighborhood or the people I work with neighborhood or the people I work with neighborhood or the people I work with think I'm you know an absolute fool or a think I'm you know an absolute fool or a think I'm you know an absolute fool or a person who is you know not not of person who is you know not not of person who is you know not not of Integrity not of character and I looked Integrity not of character and I looked Integrity not of character and I looked back I think on a lot of the leadership back I think on a lot of the leadership back I think on a lot of the leadership in the tragedy you know has also in the tragedy you know has also in the tragedy you know has also occurred around the time of the occurred around the time of the occurred around the time of the promotion of platform as a shortcut to promotion of platform as a shortcut to promotion of platform as a shortcut to leadership and so you know that's the

leadership and so you know that's the leadership and so you know that's the essential idea that I began to sort of essential idea that I began to sort of essential idea that I began to sort of think we need to unpick this both think we need to unpick this both think we need to unpick this both socially as individuals and also as as a socially as individuals and also as as a socially as individuals and also as as a model of leadership this IDE platform model of leadership this IDE platform model of leadership this IDE platform has to be pulled apart now there is a has to be pulled apart now there is a has to be pulled apart now there is a reality toes platform like there is a reality toes platform like there is a reality toes platform like there is a thing you and I have a platform you know thing you and I have a platform you know thing you and I have a platform you know uh we can go on here and people will uh we can go on here and people will uh we can go on here and people will listen um but I think that uh that listen um but I think that uh that listen um but I think that uh that disconnected from anything else the idea disconnected from anything else the idea disconnected from anything else the idea platform has increasingly become toxic platform has increasingly become toxic platform has increasingly become toxic you know and you mentioned before those you know and you mentioned before those you know and you mentioned before those podcasts the influence of the politics podcasts the influence of the politics podcasts the influence of the politics it really is ultimately about platform it really is ultimately about platform it really is ultimately about platform um this Dynamic so it's had a huge um this Dynamic so it's had a huge um this Dynamic so it's had a huge effect on our effect on our effect on our world and you know I've I've reflected world and you know I've I've reflected world and you know I've I've reflected on this because we hear from we have a on this because we hear from we have a on this because we hear from we have a pretty young audience we hear from a ton pretty young audience we hear from a ton pretty young audience we hear from a ton of young leaders and a question I've of young leaders and a question I've of young leaders and a question I've gotten over the last 5 10 years is how gotten over the last 5 10 years is how gotten over the last 5 10 years is how how how do I build a platform and I how how do I build a platform and I how how do I build a platform and I think you quote this in your book from think you quote this in your book from think you quote this in your book from pillars to platform but when Tim Keller pillars to platform but when Tim Keller pillars to platform but when Tim Keller died I I wrote something about you know died I I wrote something about you know died I I wrote something about you know most of the people I know who are my age most of the people I know who are my age most of the people I know who are my age or older didn't set out to build a or older didn't set out to build a or older didn't set out to build a platform they did really meaningful work platform they did really meaningful work platform they did really meaningful work and the platform kind of built itself and the platform kind of built itself and the platform kind of built itself wow there's something significant wow there's something significant wow there's something significant happening in New York there's something happening in New York there's something happening in New York there's something you know when I when I heard Mark I you know when I when I heard Mark I you know when I when I heard Mark I really liked it but it's like you know really liked it but it's like you know really liked it but it's like you know yeah you have a good studio and you know yeah you have a good studio and you know yeah you have a good studio and you know you're on YouTube and you have nice you're on YouTube and you have nice you're on YouTube and you have nice graphics and some podcast themed music graphics and some podcast themed music graphics and some podcast themed music but you weren't like how do we build an but you weren't like how do we build an but you weren't like how do we build an Empire you're just like hey here's some Empire you're just like hey here's some Empire you're just like hey here's some thoughts and you know it kind of built

thoughts and you know it kind of built thoughts and you know it kind of built out and I've thought about the fact like out and I've thought about the fact like out and I've thought about the fact like I'm still here in my basement north of I'm still here in my basement north of I'm still here in my basement north of Toronto doing this interview and I have Toronto doing this interview and I have Toronto doing this interview and I have more listeners than a lot of mainstream more listeners than a lot of mainstream more listeners than a lot of mainstream broadcast things it's crazy but I also I broadcast things it's crazy but I also I broadcast things it's crazy but I also I also you know so commenting on that like also you know so commenting on that like also you know so commenting on that like you're not trying to build a platform you're not trying to build a platform you're not trying to build a platform just trying to do meaningful work and just trying to do meaningful work and just trying to do meaningful work and the platform kind of builds itself now the platform kind of builds itself now the platform kind of builds itself now you know am I happier with more you know am I happier with more you know am I happier with more listeners and viewers than less yes yeah listeners and viewers than less yes yeah listeners and viewers than less yes yeah I I would rather a bigger audience than I I would rather a bigger audience than I I would rather a bigger audience than no audience or a smaller audience so no audience or a smaller audience so no audience or a smaller audience so full disclosure on the other hand if full disclosure on the other hand if full disclosure on the other hand if this had happened to me in my 30s I this had happened to me in my 30s I this had happened to me in my 30s I think I would have been roadkill I am think I would have been roadkill I am think I would have been roadkill I am very grateful that this happened to me very grateful that this happened to me very grateful that this happened to me in my 40s and my 50s not in my 30s in my 40s and my 50s not in my 30s in my 40s and my 50s not in my 30s because I did not have the Char because I did not have the Char because I did not have the Char and I pray every day I hope I have the and I pray every day I hope I have the and I pray every day I hope I have the character to sustain what God is has has character to sustain what God is has has character to sustain what God is has has is doing right now in this moment but is doing right now in this moment but is doing right now in this moment but like if your character if your platform like if your character if your platform like if your character if your platform outruns your outruns your outruns your character that's a recipe for a life character that's a recipe for a life character that's a recipe for a life implosion and you know Mark we've hung implosion and you know Mark we've hung implosion and you know Mark we've hung out in real life too I see you as very out in real life too I see you as very out in real life too I see you as very level-headed very thoughtful what if level-headed very thoughtful what if level-headed very thoughtful what if this had happened to you at 18 what if this had happened to you at 18 what if this had happened to you at 18 what if you're Mr Beast like you know and he you're Mr Beast like you know and he you're Mr Beast like you know and he seems to be handling it okay I think but seems to be handling it okay I think but seems to be handling it okay I think but like i' I'd love your thoughts on that like i' I'd love your thoughts on that like i' I'd love your thoughts on that yeah I I agree I think if if this had yeah I I agree I think if if this had yeah I I agree I think if if this had come earlier I wouldn't been able to come earlier I wouldn't been able to come earlier I wouldn't been able to handle it you know um you know I've said handle it you know um you know I've said handle it you know um you know I've said to people before um you know I'm glad my to people before um you know I'm glad my to people before um you know I'm glad my first couple books didn't become

first couple books didn't become first couple books didn't become bestsellers because you know you bestsellers because you know you bestsellers because you know you couldn't handle it and you know there's couldn't handle it and you know there's couldn't handle it and you know there's something that you know I think for like something that you know I think for like something that you know I think for like when I think about what's happening with when I think about what's happening with when I think about what's happening with Rebuilders like there's an element that Rebuilders like there's an element that Rebuilders like there's an element that we always talk about that it comes from we always talk about that it comes from we always talk about that it comes from our experience at the local church you our experience at the local church you our experience at the local church you know um and and it sort of began to take know um and and it sort of began to take know um and and it sort of began to take off really when you know and even before off really when you know and even before off really when you know and even before rebills did this cultureal moment with rebills did this cultureal moment with rebills did this cultureal moment with John M Comer and you know it was really John M Comer and you know it was really John M Comer and you know it was really our reflections of trying to do Church our reflections of trying to do Church our reflections of trying to do Church in these very secular cities reflecting in these very secular cities reflecting in these very secular cities reflecting on it you know and you know it wasn't on it you know and you know it wasn't on it you know and you know it wasn't just it was it was con there's almost just it was it was con there's almost just it was it was con there's almost this idea of content as disconnected this idea of content as disconnected this idea of content as disconnected from real life you know so if I just from real life you know so if I just from real life you know so if I just come up with this great content but I come up with this great content but I come up with this great content but I think great content emerges from someone think great content emerges from someone think great content emerges from someone who lives in in a real place in a real who lives in in a real place in a real who lives in in a real place in a real time and has learned these wisdom so time and has learned these wisdom so time and has learned these wisdom so there's a difference between wisdom and there's a difference between wisdom and there's a difference between wisdom and content in a sense you know so like with content in a sense you know so like with content in a sense you know so like with Rebuilders um there's an element where Rebuilders um there's an element where Rebuilders um there's an element where we're always trying to apply wisdom to we're always trying to apply wisdom to we're always trying to apply wisdom to it you know so you know with our last it you know so you know with our last it you know so you know with our last episode we did an update on all the episode we did an update on all the episode we did an update on all the stuff happening in the world but at the stuff happening in the world but at the stuff happening in the world but at the end I tried to orientate like if you're end I tried to orientate like if you're end I tried to orientate like if you're feeling Punch Drunk by this moment feeling Punch Drunk by this moment feeling Punch Drunk by this moment here's actually how you can Center here's actually how you can Center here's actually how you can Center yourself on what God is doing at the yourself on what God is doing at the yourself on what God is doing at the very end you always trying to tie it very end you always trying to tie it very end you always trying to tie it back so you know for us with rebuilds we back so you know for us with rebuilds we back so you know for us with rebuilds we started in in Co and we were recording started in in Co and we were recording started in in Co and we were recording during Co and we're like two weeks ah during Co and we're like two weeks ah during Co and we're like two weeks ah like this is what we're thinking about like this is what we're thinking about like this is what we're thinking about this is what we're trying to do this is this is what we're trying to do this is this is what we're trying to do this is what we're trying to rebuild our church what we're trying to rebuild our church what we're trying to rebuild our church you know we kept going through seasons you know we kept going through seasons you know we kept going through seasons of difficulty and struggle and and my of difficulty and struggle and and my of difficulty and struggle and and my heart is is warmed less by it's it's heart is is warmed less by it's it's heart is is warmed less by it's it's even the same you know it's always great

even the same you know it's always great even the same you know it's always great to say wow this many people are to say wow this many people are to say wow this many people are listening it's fantastic you know if it listening it's fantastic you know if it listening it's fantastic you know if it was 12 people listening I wouldn't was 12 people listening I wouldn't was 12 people listening I wouldn't bother you know because it's like a lot bother you know because it's like a lot bother you know because it's like a lot of you know the energy level to to a lot of you know the energy level to to a lot of you know the energy level to to a lot of work yeah and um but you know I just of work yeah and um but you know I just of work yeah and um but you know I just it's the it's what we realized is for it's the it's what we realized is for it's the it's what we realized is for pastors your average passes out there is pastors your average passes out there is pastors your average passes out there is 80 to 150 people um they're never going 80 to 150 people um they're never going 80 to 150 people um they're never going to have a platform they're being to have a platform they're being to have a platform they're being faithful and we see that like if I can faithful and we see that like if I can faithful and we see that like if I can save people through yeah I'm just I'm save people through yeah I'm just I'm save people through yeah I'm just I'm interested in culture in the news this interested in culture in the news this interested in culture in the news this is what I do fun you know um this is not is what I do fun you know um this is not is what I do fun you know um this is not me spending an hour a week this is me me spending an hour a week this is me me spending an hour a week this is me just following the news I always have I just following the news I always have I just following the news I always have I read books as fun about this stuff it's read books as fun about this stuff it's read books as fun about this stuff it's just a natural outflow of who how God's just a natural outflow of who how God's just a natural outflow of who how God's made me um so if I can take that gift made me um so if I can take that gift made me um so if I can take that gift give it to people but be rooted in give it to people but be rooted in give it to people but be rooted in wisdom you know that's really key and wisdom you know that's really key and wisdom you know that's really key and you know this this ties into the counter you know this this ties into the counter you know this this ties into the counter point that I bring up in the book of a point that I bring up in the book of a point that I bring up in the book of a pillar I mean s a platform it's like I pillar I mean s a platform it's like I pillar I mean s a platform it's like I thought we have to okay what's a thought we have to okay what's a thought we have to okay what's a Biblical way of living and uh I thought Biblical way of living and uh I thought Biblical way of living and uh I thought of another architectural structure and of another architectural structure and of another architectural structure and it just dawned on me one day um uh that it just dawned on me one day um uh that it just dawned on me one day um uh that there's this biblical analogy which has there's this biblical analogy which has there's this biblical analogy which has always sort of tantalized me um of the always sort of tantalized me um of the always sort of tantalized me um of the living Temple that that Jerusalem Temple living Temple that that Jerusalem Temple living Temple that that Jerusalem Temple Falls and Jesus talks about you know Falls and Jesus talks about you know Falls and Jesus talks about you know this cating this living temple in the this cating this living temple in the this cating this living temple in the world so I thought about that thought world so I thought about that thought world so I thought about that thought wow there's this living temple being wow there's this living temple being wow there's this living temple being built in the world and you know it built in the world and you know it built in the world and you know it there's this idea in the scriptures of there's this idea in the scriptures of there's this idea in the scriptures of pillars you know that and and I began to pillars you know that and and I began to pillars you know that and and I began to think what if that's a sort of Counter think what if that's a sort of Counter think what if that's a sort of Counter Point to this and I thought about a Point to this and I thought about a Point to this and I thought about a pillar when someone who has invested in

pillar when someone who has invested in pillar when someone who has invested in a community you know um uh you know a community you know um uh you know a community you know um uh you know basically um uh like has has lived well basically um uh like has has lived well basically um uh like has has lived well they often describe them as a pillar of they often describe them as a pillar of they often describe them as a pillar of a community you're right and um um uh a community you're right and um um uh a community you're right and um um uh you know that's something that I wanted you know that's something that I wanted you know that's something that I wanted to to live towards to have as an to to live towards to have as an to to live towards to have as an aspiration and you know I I realize that aspiration and you know I I realize that aspiration and you know I I realize that pillars are strong they are resilient pillars are strong they are resilient pillars are strong they are resilient they work in unison with others and in a they work in unison with others and in a they work in unison with others and in a sense they create space architectural sense they create space architectural sense they create space architectural pillar creates space to have sort of you pillar creates space to have sort of you pillar creates space to have sort of you know place where people can meet in a know place where people can meet in a know place where people can meet in a building and you know I realized that um building and you know I realized that um building and you know I realized that um uh you know that's a a much more uh you know that's a a much more uh you know that's a a much more aspirational model for people than to aspirational model for people than to aspirational model for people than to build a platform so you know I had this build a platform so you know I had this build a platform so you know I had this thought like if what if the church thought like if what if the church thought like if what if the church leaders encourag them to be pillars if leaders encourag them to be pillars if leaders encourag them to be pillars if we did that for the long hul building we did that for the long hul building we did that for the long hul building credibility over time maybe that's just credibility over time maybe that's just credibility over time maybe that's just going to be in a town of 3,000 people going to be in a town of 3,000 people going to be in a town of 3,000 people that's actually I think a far more that's actually I think a far more that's actually I think a far more biblical uh motive than a biblical uh motive than a biblical uh motive than a platform yeah and pillars don't move I'm platform yeah and pillars don't move I'm platform yeah and pillars don't move I'm not I'm not saying you you can't learn not I'm not saying you you can't learn not I'm not saying you you can't learn and grow and change and mature and grow and change and mature and grow and change and mature but you know I think about my father one but you know I think about my father one but you know I think about my father one of the things in 85 years I'm so amazed of the things in 85 years I'm so amazed of the things in 85 years I'm so amazed about with him is he's always been a about with him is he's always been a about with him is he's always been a kind generous good man if he became kind generous good man if he became kind generous good man if he became angry bitter frustrated you know

angry bitter frustrated you know angry bitter frustrated you know volatile I would be like oh the pillar volatile I would be like oh the pillar volatile I would be like oh the pillar just collapsed and I think we need more just collapsed and I think we need more just collapsed and I think we need more pillars in in the world and that goes pillars in in the world and that goes pillars in in the world and that goes back to what we talked about earlier you back to what we talked about earlier you back to what we talked about earlier you know and I'm not saying people can't know and I'm not saying people can't know and I'm not saying people can't change their political allegiance or change their political allegiance or change their political allegiance or can't change their mind or they get can't change their mind or they get can't change their mind or they get converted but you know if you're a converted but you know if you're a converted but you know if you're a Christian or you're a pastor you're a Christian or you're a pastor you're a Christian or you're a pastor you're a leader people are looking for something leader people are looking for something leader people are looking for something that is that is that is trustworthy yes and you know I think trustworthy yes and you know I think trustworthy yes and you know I think that's what you hint at in the book is that's what you hint at in the book is that's what you hint at in the book is that what if Christians were beacons of that what if Christians were beacons of that what if Christians were beacons of virtue and if you look at the spread of virtue and if you look at the spread of virtue and if you look at the spread of the early church you see that that these the early church you see that that these the early church you see that that these were people who cared for people that were people who cared for people that were people who cared for people that other people forgot these were people other people forgot these were people other people forgot these were people who loved and who saw the world very who loved and who saw the world very who loved and who saw the world very differently than the culture around them differently than the culture around them differently than the culture around them and you know with with people having and you know with with people having and you know with with people having more spiritual more spiritual more spiritual curiosity wouldn't it be great if we had curiosity wouldn't it be great if we had curiosity wouldn't it be great if we had more pillars and you know the more more pillars and you know the more more pillars and you know the more things change the more you need things change the more you need things change the more you need something to stay the same mission of something to stay the same mission of something to stay the same mission of the church doesn't change the gospel the church doesn't change the gospel the church doesn't change the gospel doesn't change is that what you're doesn't change is that what you're doesn't change is that what you're driving at kind of that's a very loaded driving at kind of that's a very loaded driving at kind of that's a very loaded question but take it where you want question but take it where you want question but take it where you want there was a great little video um I saw there was a great little video um I saw there was a great little video um I saw recently of as an Australian rapper who recently of as an Australian rapper who recently of as an Australian rapper who just came to Faith and he talked about just came to Faith and he talked about just came to Faith and he talked about and shock he took there's a sort of big and shock he took there's a sort of big and shock he took there's a sort of big podcast the where the person is on podcast the where the person is on podcast the where the person is on television and in Australia this is not television and in Australia this is not television and in Australia this is not normal like I know in the United States normal like I know in the United States normal like I know in the United States stuff like this happens to see someone stuff like this happens to see someone stuff like this happens to see someone talk about faith on TV so jarring and talk about faith on TV so jarring and talk about faith on TV so jarring and you know he's he's Liv quite a rough you know he's he's Liv quite a rough you know he's he's Liv quite a rough life and in the middle of the interview life and in the middle of the interview life and in the middle of the interview the gu's like what do you want to do

the gu's like what do you want to do the gu's like what do you want to do with your life he just said um you know with your life he just said um you know with your life he just said um you know I want to live to glorify God and it was I want to live to glorify God and it was I want to live to glorify God and it was shocking and you can see that the shocking and you can see that the shocking and you can see that the interviewer was surprised then he's like interviewer was surprised then he's like interviewer was surprised then he's like wow I didn't know you were religious and wow I didn't know you were religious and wow I didn't know you were religious and he basically said you know I was so an he basically said you know I was so an he basically said you know I was so an religious and one of his friends came to religious and one of his friends came to religious and one of his friends came to Faith and it was deeply shocking for his Faith and it was deeply shocking for his Faith and it was deeply shocking for his group of friends and uh the the sort of group of friends and uh the the sort of group of friends and uh the the sort of witness of this guy his complete witness of this guy his complete witness of this guy his complete transformation as a person was what transformation as a person was what transformation as a person was what shook this Australian rapper completely shook this Australian rapper completely shook this Australian rapper completely not typical person who had come to Faith not typical person who had come to Faith not typical person who had come to Faith and this has now led him to Christ and I and this has now led him to Christ and I and this has now led him to Christ and I think we've forgotten that like the think we've forgotten that like the think we've forgotten that like the power of a life lived well a life lived power of a life lived well a life lived power of a life lived well a life lived for Christ and I think in all of this for Christ and I think in all of this for Christ and I think in all of this cultural tumult that was spoken about I cultural tumult that was spoken about I cultural tumult that was spoken about I think it's it's when people um live like think it's it's when people um live like think it's it's when people um live like pillars it's going to be an increasingly pillars it's going to be an increasingly pillars it's going to be an increasingly luminous thing when everything is luminous thing when everything is luminous thing when everything is unstable they're going to look for unstable they're going to look for unstable they're going to look for places of strength of resilience of places of strength of resilience of places of strength of resilience of support and I also I also realize that support and I also I also realize that support and I also I also realize that what pillars do in the living Temple what pillars do in the living Temple what pillars do in the living Temple metaphor that the scriptures use is that metaphor that the scriptures use is that metaphor that the scriptures use is that they actually um create space for the they actually um create space for the they actually um create space for the presence of God and I think people are presence of God and I think people are presence of God and I think people are desperate for you know an encounter with desperate for you know an encounter with desperate for you know an encounter with god um you know if Augustine's you know god um you know if Augustine's you know god um you know if Augustine's you know corrected his assessment which I think corrected his assessment which I think corrected his assessment which I think is their hearts are sort of homeless is their hearts are sort of homeless is their hearts are sort of homeless until they find you know themselves back until they find you know themselves back until they find you know themselves back in God encountering the presence of God in God encountering the presence of God in God encountering the presence of God I think is going be increasingly I think is going be increasingly I think is going be increasingly something that churches need to build something that churches need to build something that churches need to build themselves uh around going themselves uh around going themselves uh around going forward well that's how we Trace out

forward well that's how we Trace out forward well that's how we Trace out hope for the future Mark I feel like hope for the future Mark I feel like hope for the future Mark I feel like we've just uh dipped our thimble in the we've just uh dipped our thimble in the we've just uh dipped our thimble in the ocean but this has been really helpful ocean but this has been really helpful ocean but this has been really helpful alarming and reassuring at the same time alarming and reassuring at the same time alarming and reassuring at the same time uh but here we are in this moment and uh but here we are in this moment and uh but here we are in this moment and you know I don't want to be trite but you know I don't want to be trite but you know I don't want to be trite but God knows exactly what's going to happen God knows exactly what's going to happen God knows exactly what's going to happen placed you here for reason you were born placed you here for reason you were born placed you here for reason you were born in the year you were born I believe for in the year you were born I believe for in the year you were born I believe for a particular reason and your framing is a particular reason and your framing is a particular reason and your framing is so helpful the book is called from so helpful the book is called from so helpful the book is called from platforms to pillars podcast is platforms to pillars podcast is platforms to pillars podcast is Rebuilders highly highly recommend Rebuilders highly highly recommend Rebuilders highly highly recommend everybody listening subscribe to it everybody listening subscribe to it everybody listening subscribe to it because if you enjoyed today you're because if you enjoyed today you're because if you enjoyed today you're going to love that podcast and Mark going to love that podcast and Mark going to love that podcast and Mark anything else you want to direct leader anything else you want to direct leader anything else you want to direct leader attention to before we go or where to attention to before we go or where to attention to before we go or where to find you online yeah I mean you can find find you online yeah I mean you can find find you online yeah I mean you can find me online I I just would just add one me online I I just would just add one me online I I just would just add one word of Hope as well you know I think word of Hope as well you know I think word of Hope as well you know I think that problems uh come before Creative that problems uh come before Creative that problems uh come before Creative Solutions and I think that the people of Solutions and I think that the people of Solutions and I think that the people of God are positioned uh you know I know God are positioned uh you know I know God are positioned uh you know I know there pastors listening but also people there pastors listening but also people there pastors listening but also people in other fields listen to your podcast in other fields listen to your podcast in other fields listen to your podcast we need economic Solutions we need we need economic Solutions we need we need economic Solutions we need political Solutions Community Solutions political Solutions Community Solutions political Solutions Community Solutions social Solutions so I'm excited what the social Solutions so I'm excited what the social Solutions so I'm excited what the people of God are going to do empowered people of God are going to do empowered people of God are going to do empowered by the Holy Spirit here in this moment by the Holy Spirit here in this moment by the Holy Spirit here in this moment so um yeah feel free to check out my so um yeah feel free to check out my so um yeah feel free to check out my stuff but I'm also championing and stuff but I'm also championing and stuff but I'm also championing and cheering you on and praying for you all cheering you on and praying for you all cheering you on and praying for you all uh you as we step into this moment with uh you as we step into this moment with uh you as we step into this moment with God here's the cool thing about talking God here's the cool thing about talking God here's the cool thing about talking to you when we had lunch in Melbourne uh to you when we had lunch in Melbourne uh to you when we had lunch in Melbourne uh a year ago we had a whole other a year ago we had a whole other a year ago we had a whole other narrative set out for a podcast so

narrative set out for a podcast so narrative set out for a podcast so that'll be next time maybe if we're all that'll be next time maybe if we're all that'll be next time maybe if we're all still here uh just so good so good uh to still here uh just so good so good uh to still here uh just so good so good uh to talk today thank you Mark no worries my talk today thank you Mark no worries my talk today thank you Mark no worries my pleasure