Andy Stanley on How to Handle Disagreements in Church (Without Losing Your Mind)

And what we hear about most is winning And what we hear about most is winning at all cost um at the cost of our at all cost um at the cost of our at all cost um at the cost of our character, our Christ-likeness, at the character, our Christ-likeness, at the character, our Christ-likeness, at the cost of our influence, and at the cost cost of our influence, and at the cost cost of our influence, and at the cost of evangelism. Welcome to the Carey of evangelism. Welcome to the Carey of evangelism. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, today we have Andy Stanley in the Hey, today we have Andy Stanley in the Hey, today we have Andy Stanley in the house and I couldn't be more excited. house and I couldn't be more excited. house and I couldn't be more excited. We're going to have a really transparent We're going to have a really transparent We're going to have a really transparent conversation on why picking sides conversation on why picking sides conversation on why picking sides sidelines the church, how to respond to sidelines the church, how to respond to sidelines the church, how to respond to critics and more. And hey, before we get critics and more. And hey, before we get critics and more. And hey, before we get started, please know the purpose of this started, please know the purpose of this started, please know the purpose of this podcast is educational and podcast is educational and podcast is educational and informational. I've got a variety of informational. I've got a variety of informational. I've got a variety of perspectives represented throughout this perspectives represented throughout this perspectives represented throughout this series and this is part of a series on series and this is part of a series on series and this is part of a series on pastoring in a partisan age. So, here's pastoring in a partisan age. So, here's pastoring in a partisan age. So, here's what I want you to do. Play nice in the what I want you to do. Play nice in the what I want you to do. Play nice in the comments, keep it civil because the goal comments, keep it civil because the goal comments, keep it civil because the goal of this series is educational and to of this series is educational and to of this series is educational and to help and to help you diffuse the help and to help you diffuse the help and to help you diffuse the conflict that culture is experiencing conflict that culture is experiencing conflict that culture is experiencing right now. Hey, today's episode is right now. Hey, today's episode is right now. Hey, today's episode is brought to you by my ultimate guide to brought to you by my ultimate guide to brought to you by my ultimate guide to healthy church conflict. If you want to healthy church conflict. If you want to healthy church conflict. If you want to start leading a more united church, start leading a more united church, start leading a more united church, download my ultimate guide to healthy download my ultimate guide to healthy download my ultimate guide to healthy church conflict at church conflict at church conflict at churchconflictguide.com churchconflictguide.com churchconflictguide.com and by Gloo Plus. The new Gloo Plus and by Gloo Plus. The new Gloo Plus and by Gloo Plus. The new Gloo Plus membership from Gloo offers your church membership from Gloo offers your church membership from Gloo offers your church free texting, time-saving resources, a free texting, time-saving resources, a free texting, time-saving resources, a new mover program and discounts on new mover program and discounts on new mover program and discounts on digital and physical resources you're digital and physical resources you're digital and physical resources you're probably already buying at full price.

probably already buying at full price. probably already buying at full price. Visit gloo.us/plus Visit gloo.us/plus Visit gloo.us/plus and use my code Carey 20 for 20% off. and use my code Carey 20 for 20% off. and use my code Carey 20 for 20% off. And now to my conversation with Andy And now to my conversation with Andy And now to my conversation with Andy Stanley. Andy, great to have you back on Stanley. Andy, great to have you back on Stanley. Andy, great to have you back on the podcast and thanks for helping us the podcast and thanks for helping us the podcast and thanks for helping us kick off this series. Yeah, well, kick off this series. Yeah, well, kick off this series. Yeah, well, something near and dear to my heart and something near and dear to my heart and something near and dear to my heart and it's fun to It's just interesting to me, it's fun to It's just interesting to me, it's fun to It's just interesting to me, Carey, that you're so interested in this Carey, that you're so interested in this Carey, that you're so interested in this being Canadian. I mean, not that you being Canadian. I mean, not that you being Canadian. I mean, not that you shouldn't care, but you're you're so shouldn't care, but you're you're so shouldn't care, but you're you're so dialed into this whole crazy dialed into this whole crazy dialed into this whole crazy conversation. So, anyway, thanks for conversation. So, anyway, thanks for conversation. So, anyway, thanks for having me back. having me back. having me back. Oh, you're welcome. Well, most of our Oh, you're welcome. Well, most of our Oh, you're welcome. Well, most of our audience is American, like 80% of audience is American, like 80% of audience is American, like 80% of podcast listeners are US and then, you podcast listeners are US and then, you podcast listeners are US and then, you know, Mark Sayers and I have talked know, Mark Sayers and I have talked know, Mark Sayers and I have talked about it. Mark will be on this, but about it. Mark will be on this, but about it. Mark will be on this, but I think sometimes it's helpful to have I think sometimes it's helpful to have I think sometimes it's helpful to have that like slightly out of country that like slightly out of country that like slightly out of country viewpoint, you know, where you're kind viewpoint, you know, where you're kind viewpoint, you know, where you're kind of on the outside looking in. And then of on the outside looking in. And then of on the outside looking in. And then and then talking to people like you who and then talking to people like you who and then talking to people like you who obviously have done rounds of this and obviously have done rounds of this and obviously have done rounds of this and really grateful that you would kick us really grateful that you would kick us really grateful that you would kick us off in this series. So, no secret, off in this series. So, no secret, off in this series. So, no secret, almost every leader is nervous about almost every leader is nervous about almost every leader is nervous about what's coming down the pipe in the next what's coming down the pipe in the next what's coming down the pipe in the next few months. Yeah. In 2020, you argue, few months. Yeah. In 2020, you argue, few months. Yeah. In 2020, you argue, and I really appreciated your and I really appreciated your and I really appreciated your contribution on this, that we discovered contribution on this, that we discovered contribution on this, that we discovered what most evangelicals value most. So, what most evangelicals value most. So, what most evangelicals value most. So, so so far in the culture wars and the so so far in the culture wars and the so so far in the culture wars and the partisanship and the ideologies, partisanship and the ideologies, partisanship and the ideologies, what is it that we apparently seem to what is it that we apparently seem to what is it that we apparently seem to value most? Well, it appears, and again, value most? Well, it appears, and again, value most? Well, it appears, and again, we're talking in broad generalities and we're talking in broad generalities and we're talking in broad generalities and and I mean, just and you know this, but and I mean, just and you know this, but and I mean, just and you know this, but I'll just say it. And your podcast I'll just say it. And your podcast I'll just say it. And your podcast listeners are smart, they know this, listeners are smart, they know this, listeners are smart, they know this, too.

too. too. The the loud the people who are loudest The the loud the people who are loudest The the loud the people who are loudest get all the attention and it's next get all the attention and it's next get all the attention and it's next thing you know, it's like all the thing you know, it's like all the thing you know, it's like all the evangelicals, just like all the evangelicals, just like all the evangelicals, just like all the Democrats, all the Republicans. So, of Democrats, all the Republicans. So, of Democrats, all the Republicans. So, of course, there's not all doesn't apply to course, there's not all doesn't apply to course, there's not all doesn't apply to anybody. But in terms of the quote anybody. But in terms of the quote anybody. But in terms of the quote supposed leaders among the evangelicals, supposed leaders among the evangelicals, supposed leaders among the evangelicals, it certainly appeared a few years ago it certainly appeared a few years ago it certainly appeared a few years ago that what we supposedly cared most about that what we supposedly cared most about that what we supposedly cared most about was winning. We just we just felt like was winning. We just we just felt like was winning. We just we just felt like we needed to win. And when I saw your we needed to win. And when I saw your we needed to win. And when I saw your questions, I actually added, I said if I questions, I actually added, I said if I questions, I actually added, I said if I were writing that again, I would add were writing that again, I would add were writing that again, I would add that we would want to win. What we care that we would want to win. What we care that we would want to win. What we care about most is winning at all cost um at about most is winning at all cost um at about most is winning at all cost um at the cost of our character, our the cost of our character, our the cost of our character, our Christ-likeness, at the cost of our Christ-likeness, at the cost of our Christ-likeness, at the cost of our influence, and at the cost of influence, and at the cost of influence, and at the cost of evangelism. Just all those things out evangelism. Just all those things out evangelism. Just all those things out the window. We've just we just got to the window. We've just we just got to the window. We've just we just got to win. And it appears, again, from the win. And it appears, again, from the win. And it appears, again, from the outside looking in and again, even some outside looking in and again, even some outside looking in and again, even some of my friends, it appears that we're of my friends, it appears that we're of my friends, it appears that we're more committed to a kingdom of our own more committed to a kingdom of our own more committed to a kingdom of our own making than we are the kingdom of making than we are the kingdom of making than we are the kingdom of Christ. Um um for which the church and Christ. Um um for which the church and Christ. Um um for which the church and you and I as individuals were supposed you and I as individuals were supposed you and I as individuals were supposed to be like a commercial announcement of to be like a commercial announcement of to be like a commercial announcement of things to come that we're supposed to be things to come that we're supposed to be things to come that we're supposed to be walking, talking representatives of walking, talking representatives of walking, talking representatives of another kingdom. Um I mean, how many another kingdom. Um I mean, how many another kingdom. Um I mean, how many times did Jesus say the kingdom of God times did Jesus say the kingdom of God times did Jesus say the kingdom of God is like the kingdom of heaven is like. I is like the kingdom of heaven is like. I is like the kingdom of heaven is like. I mean, he was as well. So, we've allowed mean, he was as well. So, we've allowed mean, he was as well. So, we've allowed some secondary issues to become primary some secondary issues to become primary some secondary issues to become primary issues and at the end of the day, we've issues and at the end of the day, we've issues and at the end of the day, we've slip-slided away and it's heartbreaking slip-slided away and it's heartbreaking slip-slided away and it's heartbreaking and it's not better than it was a few and it's not better than it was a few and it's not better than it was a few years ago when we started talking about years ago when we started talking about years ago when we started talking about this. It's worse, at least from my my this. It's worse, at least from my my this. It's worse, at least from my my estimation. So, anyway, estimation. So, anyway, estimation. So, anyway, What do you think makes us so gullible What do you think makes us so gullible What do you think makes us so gullible in this area, so susceptible

in this area, so susceptible in this area, so susceptible to want to win, to wade into the culture to want to win, to wade into the culture to want to win, to wade into the culture wars, the the partisanship, etc., etc.? wars, the the partisanship, etc., etc.? wars, the the partisanship, etc., etc.? Yeah, okay, again, you're interviewing Yeah, okay, again, you're interviewing Yeah, okay, again, you're interviewing me, so these are my opinions. I'm I feel me, so these are my opinions. I'm I feel me, so these are my opinions. I'm I feel like there's somewhat educated opinions, like there's somewhat educated opinions, like there's somewhat educated opinions, been through several rounds of this. been through several rounds of this. been through several rounds of this. I really think it boils down to maybe a I really think it boils down to maybe a I really think it boils down to maybe a fundamental misunderstanding about the fundamental misunderstanding about the fundamental misunderstanding about the difference between being biblical and difference between being biblical and difference between being biblical and being Christ-like. being Christ-like. being Christ-like. And whenever I talk about this, I get in And whenever I talk about this, I get in And whenever I talk about this, I get in trouble cuz people say Andy doesn't trouble cuz people say Andy doesn't trouble cuz people say Andy doesn't believe the Bible. Well, anybody that believe the Bible. Well, anybody that believe the Bible. Well, anybody that knows me or listens to me preach knows me or listens to me preach knows me or listens to me preach consistently knows that's absurd. consistently knows that's absurd. consistently knows that's absurd. But there's a big difference between But there's a big difference between But there's a big difference between being biblical and Christ-like. And being biblical and Christ-like. And being biblical and Christ-like. And here's what I would just suggest here's what I would just suggest here's what I would just suggest you know, the audience listen for. you know, the audience listen for. you know, the audience listen for. Listen for how many times evangelicals Listen for how many times evangelicals Listen for how many times evangelicals in particular, but conservative in particular, but conservative in particular, but conservative Christians and fundamentalists Christians and fundamentalists Christians and fundamentalists specifically, when they make their case specifically, when they make their case specifically, when they make their case about infusing politics into the church about infusing politics into the church about infusing politics into the church and politics and we represent the and politics and we represent the and politics and we represent the kingdom of God and the kingdom, you kingdom of God and the kingdom, you kingdom of God and the kingdom, you know, world's coming to an end, listen know, world's coming to an end, listen know, world's coming to an end, listen for how many times you hear the word for how many times you hear the word for how many times you hear the word biblical biblical biblical versus listen to how many times you hear versus listen to how many times you hear versus listen to how many times you hear the word Christ-like.

the word Christ-like. the word Christ-like. And as I argue in Not in It to Win It, And as I argue in Not in It to Win It, And as I argue in Not in It to Win It, we are partisans of a king. That's what we are partisans of a king. That's what we are partisans of a king. That's what the word Christian means. When they the word Christian means. When they the word Christian means. When they Christians and anti Jesus followers in Christians and anti Jesus followers in Christians and anti Jesus followers in Antioch, and you know this, when they Antioch, and you know this, when they Antioch, and you know this, when they were first the first the first time the were first the first the first time the were first the first the first time the term Christian was used, it was a term Christian was used, it was a term Christian was used, it was a derogatory term. It was a political derogatory term. It was a political derogatory term. It was a political term. It wasn't religious. It's like term. It wasn't religious. It's like term. It wasn't religious. It's like they were If you were Herodian, it was they were If you were Herodian, it was they were If you were Herodian, it was your follower of of Herod. Caesarean your follower of of Herod. Caesarean your follower of of Herod. Caesarean Caesarean the Caesarean the followers of Caesarean the Caesarean the followers of Caesarean the Caesarean the followers of Caesar. Caesar. Caesar. Um and Christiani was a follower of this Um and Christiani was a follower of this Um and Christiani was a follower of this invisible crucified king, Christ. So, as invisible crucified king, Christ. So, as invisible crucified king, Christ. So, as fought We're supposed to be Christ-like. fought We're supposed to be Christ-like. fought We're supposed to be Christ-like. And and there is a difference between And and there is a difference between And and there is a difference between trying to be biblical and Christ-like. trying to be biblical and Christ-like. trying to be biblical and Christ-like. So, just listen to that terminology So, just listen to that terminology So, just listen to that terminology because the reason this gets confusing because the reason this gets confusing because the reason this gets confusing and I think the reason so many so much and I think the reason so many so much and I think the reason so many so much of it's gone off the rails is we have of it's gone off the rails is we have of it's gone off the rails is we have raised generation after generation after raised generation after generation after raised generation after generation after generation of Christians who feel like, generation of Christians who feel like, generation of Christians who feel like, oh, I'm supposed to live out something oh, I'm supposed to live out something oh, I'm supposed to live out something that's biblical versus being like that's biblical versus being like that's biblical versus being like Christ. And and to be Christ-like Christ. And and to be Christ-like Christ. And and to be Christ-like narrows narrows narrows our options significantly our options significantly our options significantly and and and being Christ-like is prescribed to us.

being Christ-like is prescribed to us. being Christ-like is prescribed to us. It's not suggested to us. It is It's not suggested to us. It is It's not suggested to us. It is prescribed to us. When Jesus said, all prescribed to us. When Jesus said, all prescribed to us. When Jesus said, all authority in heaven and on earth belongs authority in heaven and on earth belongs authority in heaven and on earth belongs to me, to me, to me, I I mean, there's no wiggle room. He's I I mean, there's no wiggle room. He's I I mean, there's no wiggle room. He's he's the king. So, again, he's the king. So, again, he's the king. So, again, um it if you lose sight of that and and um it if you lose sight of that and and um it if you lose sight of that and and last thing, it's so interesting, too, last thing, it's so interesting, too, last thing, it's so interesting, too, Carey, and every Christian knows this. Carey, and every Christian knows this. Carey, and every Christian knows this. Every pastor's preached this passage. Every pastor's preached this passage. Every pastor's preached this passage. One the the last temptation that Jesus One the the last temptation that Jesus One the the last temptation that Jesus faced in Matthew chapter 4 was Satan faced in Matthew chapter 4 was Satan faced in Matthew chapter 4 was Satan takes him to this high mountain and takes him to this high mountain and takes him to this high mountain and says, I want you to look at all the says, I want you to look at all the says, I want you to look at all the kingdoms of the world and their kingdoms of the world and their kingdoms of the world and their splendor. splendor. splendor. I will I have the authority to give this I will I have the authority to give this I will I have the authority to give this to you. And Jesus said, no, thanks. It's to you. And Jesus said, no, thanks. It's to you. And Jesus said, no, thanks. It's not why I've come. And what have we done not why I've come. And what have we done not why I've come. And what have we done as conservative Christians? Suddenly, as conservative Christians? Suddenly, as conservative Christians? Suddenly, we've decided, no, we we'll take that. we've decided, no, we we'll take that. we've decided, no, we we'll take that. We'll take the kingdoms of this world. We'll take the kingdoms of this world. We'll take the kingdoms of this world. We'll take the kingdom of the United We'll take the kingdom of the United We'll take the kingdom of the United States and the UK and we're, you know, States and the UK and we're, you know, States and the UK and we're, you know, we want to infuse create some sort of we want to infuse create some sort of we want to infuse create some sort of theocracy. I mean, it's right there in theocracy. I mean, it's right there in theocracy. I mean, it's right there in in the Bible. The in the Bible. The in the Bible. The one of the temptations was to opt for one of the temptations was to opt for one of the temptations was to opt for power over Christ-likeness. And the power over Christ-likeness. And the power over Christ-likeness. And the moment we do that, we've lost out of the moment we do that, we've lost out of the moment we do that, we've lost out of the script and, you know, here we are. So, script and, you know, here we are. So, script and, you know, here we are. So, long answer to your question, I'm sorry.

long answer to your question, I'm sorry. long answer to your question, I'm sorry. I'll try to be shorter. Yeah, to the I'll try to be shorter. Yeah, to the I'll try to be shorter. Yeah, to the question. But you know, you've you've question. But you know, you've you've question. But you know, you've you've This isn't your first rodeo. You've been This isn't your first rodeo. You've been This isn't your first rodeo. You've been through a few elections as a lead through a few elections as a lead through a few elections as a lead pastor. I mean, North Point's what, 20 pastor. I mean, North Point's what, 20 pastor. I mean, North Point's what, 20 29. Come on, Carey. 29. Come on, Carey. 29. Come on, Carey. 29 years old. Wow. And then, you know, 29 years old. Wow. And then, you know, 29 years old. Wow. And then, you know, growing up, you had a front row seat growing up, you had a front row seat growing up, you had a front row seat with your dad. Uh you know, Dr. Charles with your dad. Uh you know, Dr. Charles with your dad. Uh you know, Dr. Charles Stanley, watching this. I would love Stanley, watching this. I would love Stanley, watching this. I would love your reflection your reflection your reflection on how you have seen the position of on how you have seen the position of on how you have seen the position of Christians change over the course of Christians change over the course of Christians change over the course of your lifetime or even the course of your your lifetime or even the course of your your lifetime or even the course of your leadership. Because it feels to me, and leadership. Because it feels to me, and leadership. Because it feels to me, and feel free to disagree, that the feel free to disagree, that the feel free to disagree, that the posturing that Christians have done posturing that Christians have done posturing that Christians have done continues to intensify. Or was it always continues to intensify. Or was it always continues to intensify. Or was it always this bad and we just have a romantic this bad and we just have a romantic this bad and we just have a romantic view of the past? Well, view of the past? Well, view of the past? Well, um um um I think this this thread has been here. I think this this thread has been here. I think this this thread has been here. It's been here as long as I can It's been here as long as I can It's been here as long as I can remember. And you you brought up a point remember. And you you brought up a point remember. And you you brought up a point I probably wouldn't have brought it up, I probably wouldn't have brought it up, I probably wouldn't have brought it up, but you know, my dad was part of but you know, my dad was part of but you know, my dad was part of played pretty major part of the played pretty major part of the played pretty major part of the resurgence in the Southern Baptist resurgence in the Southern Baptist resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention way back um in the '90s um Convention way back um in the '90s um Convention way back um in the '90s um and and and I remember I got to sit in on meetings, I remember I got to sit in on meetings, I remember I got to sit in on meetings, got invited to things just cuz I was his got invited to things just cuz I was his got invited to things just cuz I was his son.

son. son. And there was something about it, even And there was something about it, even And there was something about it, even though I it was sort of the It was the though I it was sort of the It was the though I it was sort of the It was the battle for the Bible and I'm all for, battle for the Bible and I'm all for, battle for the Bible and I'm all for, hey, let's battle for the Bible. You hey, let's battle for the Bible. You hey, let's battle for the Bible. You know, the Bible's preeminent. Um know, the Bible's preeminent. Um know, the Bible's preeminent. Um but the way things were done and the but the way things were done and the but the way things were done and the things that were said and the posture things that were said and the posture things that were said and the posture that was taken, as I have matured that was taken, as I have matured that was taken, as I have matured honestly in my own faith and honestly in honestly in my own faith and honestly in honestly in my own faith and honestly in my own understanding of the Gospels, my own understanding of the Gospels, my own understanding of the Gospels, just my personal Bible study, um so much just my personal Bible study, um so much just my personal Bible study, um so much of that, of that, of that, even though the the end seemed like the even though the the end seemed like the even though the the end seemed like the right end, right end, right end, um um um it certainly didn't justify the means it certainly didn't justify the means it certainly didn't justify the means because and this the means was simply we because and this the means was simply we because and this the means was simply we picked up the tactics and the approach picked up the tactics and the approach picked up the tactics and the approach and the tools of the kingdoms of this and the tools of the kingdoms of this and the tools of the kingdoms of this world and we went to war on behalf of world and we went to war on behalf of world and we went to war on behalf of Jesus. A little a little bit like the Jesus. A little a little bit like the Jesus. A little a little bit like the Crusaders. You know, criticism, Crusaders. You know, criticism, Crusaders. You know, criticism, undermining, not always telling the undermining, not always telling the undermining, not always telling the truth, powering up, taking over, all truth, powering up, taking over, all truth, powering up, taking over, all those things. Again, follow Jesus those things. Again, follow Jesus those things. Again, follow Jesus through the Gospels, you see not only do through the Gospels, you see not only do through the Gospels, you see not only do you see none of that, you see him you see none of that, you see him you see none of that, you see him resisting that. My favorite is they're resisting that. My favorite is they're resisting that. My favorite is they're on their way to Jerusalem and two and on their way to Jerusalem and two and on their way to Jerusalem and two and the they send Jesus and his disciples the they send Jesus and his disciples the they send Jesus and his disciples ahead to a village in Samaria. We need ahead to a village in Samaria. We need ahead to a village in Samaria. We need to spend the night somewhere, go you to spend the night somewhere, go you to spend the night somewhere, go you know, ask them if we can spend the night know, ask them if we can spend the night know, ask them if we can spend the night in their village. The Samaritans say no.

in their village. The Samaritans say no. in their village. The Samaritans say no. And the two of the disciples are like, And the two of the disciples are like, And the two of the disciples are like, Jesus, do you want us to call down fire Jesus, do you want us to call down fire Jesus, do you want us to call down fire from heaven and burn up burn the whole from heaven and burn up burn the whole from heaven and burn up burn the whole place down? In other words, how dare place down? In other words, how dare place down? In other words, how dare they not let the son of man spend the they not let the son of man spend the they not let the son of man spend the night in their village? Do you want us night in their village? Do you want us night in their village? Do you want us to destroy them all? This is at the end to destroy them all? This is at the end to destroy them all? This is at the end of three years of Jesus and he looks at of three years of Jesus and he looks at of three years of Jesus and he looks at them like, them like, them like, no. It's like, what are you talking no. It's like, what are you talking no. It's like, what are you talking about? But to the answer your question, about? But to the answer your question, about? But to the answer your question, it is in us, it is in us, it is in us, it is was in them. There is going to it is was in them. There is going to it is was in them. There is going to probably always be this thread that not probably always be this thread that not probably always be this thread that not just through evangelical Christianity, just through evangelical Christianity, just through evangelical Christianity, but all of Christianity. but all of Christianity. but all of Christianity. Um, Um, Um, and there's again, as soon as we do and there's again, as soon as we do and there's again, as soon as we do that, we've already lost. Even if we get that, we've already lost. Even if we get that, we've already lost. Even if we get our bill passed, even if we get our our bill passed, even if we get our our bill passed, even if we get our candidate elected, we've already lost candidate elected, we've already lost candidate elected, we've already lost because we have dipped down into a world because we have dipped down into a world because we have dipped down into a world that Jesus standing on the mountain, that Jesus standing on the mountain, that Jesus standing on the mountain, however that works, seeing the kingdoms however that works, seeing the kingdoms however that works, seeing the kingdoms of the world said, don't want it. Don't of the world said, don't want it. Don't of the world said, don't want it. Don't want what you're offering. Don't want want what you're offering. Don't want want what you're offering. Don't want the way you're offering it. I've come the way you're offering it. I've come the way you're offering it. I've come for something completely different. I for something completely different. I for something completely different. I have come to as the savior of the world. have come to as the savior of the world. have come to as the savior of the world. My news is going to be good news of My news is going to be good news of My news is going to be good news of great joy for every person who is born great joy for every person who is born great joy for every person who is born on planet Earth. And what you're on planet Earth. And what you're on planet Earth. And what you're offering me, the way that I would have offering me, the way that I would have offering me, the way that I would have to get to what you're offering me, I to get to what you're offering me, I to get to what you're offering me, I would abandon all that. So, I'm not would abandon all that. So, I'm not would abandon all that. So, I'm not suggesting this is simple and I don't suggesting this is simple and I don't suggesting this is simple and I don't want to be simplistic. But, so much of want to be simplistic. But, so much of want to be simplistic. But, so much of what we're seeing and seeing Christians what we're seeing and seeing Christians what we're seeing and seeing Christians use the language they're using and and use the language they're using and and use the language they're using and and because again, the the the ends because again, the the the ends because again, the the the ends justifies the means, it's it's a little justifies the means, it's it's a little justifies the means, it's it's a little heartbreaking. Yeah. So, the two heartbreaking. Yeah. So, the two heartbreaking. Yeah. So, the two dominant approaches that we see a lot of dominant approaches that we see a lot of dominant approaches that we see a lot of church leaders take in a season like church leaders take in a season like church leaders take in a season like this or an era like this is Yeah. Put

this or an era like this is Yeah. Put this or an era like this is Yeah. Put your head in the sand, hope it goes your head in the sand, hope it goes your head in the sand, hope it goes away. And I I got to be honest with you, away. And I I got to be honest with you, away. And I I got to be honest with you, that's probably my inclination. It's that's probably my inclination. It's that's probably my inclination. It's like, I'm going to put my head I don't like, I'm going to put my head I don't like, I'm going to put my head I don't think that's your inclination. You you think that's your inclination. You you think that's your inclination. You you you you you you you have you have found a way to you you have you have found a way to you you have you have found a way to keep speaking up on issues that you're keep speaking up on issues that you're keep speaking up on issues that you're passionate about, sometimes at great passionate about, sometimes at great passionate about, sometimes at great personal cost and we'll go there uh personal cost and we'll go there uh personal cost and we'll go there uh later. But the other approach, and I later. But the other approach, and I later. But the other approach, and I don't want to suggest this is your don't want to suggest this is your don't want to suggest this is your approach cuz it's not, but it's put your approach cuz it's not, but it's put your approach cuz it's not, but it's put your head in the sand, that's probably me, head in the sand, that's probably me, head in the sand, that's probably me, which is one of the reasons I'm doing which is one of the reasons I'm doing which is one of the reasons I'm doing this series, or pick a partisan this series, or pick a partisan this series, or pick a partisan candidate and tell everyone to vote for candidate and tell everyone to vote for candidate and tell everyone to vote for them. Right? This is how we take back them. Right? This is how we take back them. Right? This is how we take back Washington, this is how we take back the Washington, this is how we take back the Washington, this is how we take back the governorship. Exactly. governorship. Exactly. governorship. Exactly. Take back the nation, yeah. Take back the nation, yeah. Take back the nation, yeah. Take back the nation. Take back the nation. Take back the nation. What is wrong with both approaches or What is wrong with both approaches or What is wrong with both approaches or either approach? Well, again, either approach? Well, again, either approach? Well, again, if my ultimate authority as a Christian, if my ultimate authority as a Christian, if my ultimate authority as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus, then he has as a follower of Jesus, then he has as a follower of Jesus, then he has prescribed my tone, prescribed my tone, prescribed my tone, my posture, and my approach to all my posture, and my approach to all my posture, and my approach to all things. All things in my home, in my things. All things in my home, in my things. All things in my home, in my community, the way I approach politics, community, the way I approach politics, community, the way I approach politics, it has been prescribed to us. We we get it has been prescribed to us. We we get it has been prescribed to us. We we get to choose whether or not we follow to choose whether or not we follow to choose whether or not we follow Jesus, we don't get to choose what Jesus, we don't get to choose what Jesus, we don't get to choose what following Jesus looks like. It's it's following Jesus looks like. It's it's following Jesus looks like. It's it's you know, it's written on the bottle.

you know, it's written on the bottle. you know, it's written on the bottle. The directions are written on the The directions are written on the The directions are written on the bottle. So, neither of those approaches bottle. So, neither of those approaches bottle. So, neither of those approaches reflect Jesus. Um, uh reflect Jesus. Um, uh reflect Jesus. Um, uh if if we stick our head in the head in if if we stick our head in the head in if if we stick our head in the head in the sand, the sand, the sand, Jesus didn't do that. Again, he found Jesus didn't do that. Again, he found Jesus didn't do that. Again, he found him he offended both the temple and the him he offended both the temple and the him he offended both the temple and the empire. Both of them wanted him on their empire. Both of them wanted him on their empire. Both of them wanted him on their side. He said, no, I'm not come to take side. He said, no, I'm not come to take side. He said, no, I'm not come to take sides as Tony Evans said years ago, I've sides as Tony Evans said years ago, I've sides as Tony Evans said years ago, I've come to take over. And so, he faces down come to take over. And so, he faces down come to take over. And so, he faces down injustice regardless of which side it's injustice regardless of which side it's injustice regardless of which side it's coming from. Um, he faces down people coming from. Um, he faces down people coming from. Um, he faces down people who are in groups who are taking who are in groups who are taking who are in groups who are taking advantage of of people who are easy to advantage of of people who are easy to advantage of of people who are easy to take advantage of. He elevated the take advantage of. He elevated the take advantage of. He elevated the status of women. In other words, he had status of women. In other words, he had status of women. In other words, he had a kingdom agenda and he stuck with his a kingdom agenda and he stuck with his a kingdom agenda and he stuck with his kingdom agenda. And meanwhile, you know, kingdom agenda. And meanwhile, you know, kingdom agenda. And meanwhile, you know, the political forces are swirling the political forces are swirling the political forces are swirling around. What was happening in Jerusalem around. What was happening in Jerusalem around. What was happening in Jerusalem during that time was extraordinarily during that time was extraordinarily during that time was extraordinarily political. You had zealots, you had the political. You had zealots, you had the political. You had zealots, you had the priests who'd kind of sold out, the priests who'd kind of sold out, the priests who'd kind of sold out, the Sadducees who definitely sold out, the Sadducees who definitely sold out, the Sadducees who definitely sold out, the Romans who were just trying to keep Romans who were just trying to keep Romans who were just trying to keep things keep the taxes. I mean, so things keep the taxes. I mean, so things keep the taxes. I mean, so political. Jesus just threads the needle political. Jesus just threads the needle political. Jesus just threads the needle and refuses to take sides and just and refuses to take sides and just and refuses to take sides and just sticks with his agenda, sticks with his sticks with his agenda, sticks with his sticks with his agenda, sticks with his kingdom. And of course, as I say all the kingdom. And of course, as I say all the kingdom. And of course, as I say all the time, in today, you know, the Roman time, in today, you know, the Roman time, in today, you know, the Roman Forum is a tourist attraction, there's Forum is a tourist attraction, there's Forum is a tourist attraction, there's there's no temple, and here we are, a there's no temple, and here we are, a there's no temple, and here we are, a third of the world's population third of the world's population third of the world's population celebrates Jesus. So, sticking our head celebrates Jesus. So, sticking our head celebrates Jesus. So, sticking our head in the sand is certainly not the in the sand is certainly not the in the sand is certainly not the approach. But, here's the thing, approach. But, here's the thing, approach. But, here's the thing, when a church or group of churches when a church or group of churches when a church or group of churches decides to push a candidate, decides to push a candidate, decides to push a candidate, in that moment, even if it's the in that moment, even if it's the in that moment, even if it's the godliest candidate, Mhm. they have godliest candidate, Mhm. they have godliest candidate, Mhm. they have undermined the purpose of the church undermined the purpose of the church undermined the purpose of the church because we are called to make disciples.

because we are called to make disciples. because we are called to make disciples. And the moment I advocate for a And the moment I advocate for a And the moment I advocate for a candidate, I have decided not to make candidate, I have decided not to make candidate, I have decided not to make disciples of half the nation. disciples of half the nation. disciples of half the nation. Right? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, suddenly I've decided I'm no I mean, suddenly I've decided I'm no I mean, suddenly I've decided I'm no longer going to make Republican longer going to make Republican longer going to make Republican disciples cuz Democrats aren't going to disciples cuz Democrats aren't going to disciples cuz Democrats aren't going to come to my church or vice versa because come to my church or vice versa because come to my church or vice versa because I've I've taken a sta- I've taken a I've I've taken a sta- I've taken a I've I've taken a sta- I've taken a stand for a stand for a stand for a uh for a candidate. And here's the other uh for a candidate. And here's the other uh for a candidate. And here's the other thing, and again, everybody knows this. thing, and again, everybody knows this. thing, and again, everybody knows this. It's like, It's like, It's like, political p- candidates, and these are political p- candidates, and these are political p- candidates, and these are wonderful men and women. I'm so grateful wonderful men and women. I'm so grateful wonderful men and women. I'm so grateful men and women step up to spend their men and women step up to spend their men and women step up to spend their lives serving our country and passing lives serving our country and passing lives serving our country and passing bills and sitting through long board I'm bills and sitting through long board I'm bills and sitting through long board I'm so grateful. So, this is not a knock. so grateful. So, this is not a knock. so grateful. So, this is not a knock. But, But, But, they're here today and they're gone they're here today and they're gone they're here today and they're gone tomorrow. tomorrow. tomorrow. Our king is forever and many Christian Our king is forever and many Christian Our king is forever and many Christian um political leaders understand that. um political leaders understand that. um political leaders understand that. There are many many many fine Christian There are many many many fine Christian There are many many many fine Christian men and women who totally get this and men and women who totally get this and men and women who totally get this and they are as dismayed at what's going on they are as dismayed at what's going on they are as dismayed at what's going on as as some of us are. So, Jesus refused as as some of us are. So, Jesus refused as as some of us are. So, Jesus refused to come down to the level of delving to come down to the level of delving to come down to the level of delving into which party he was going to into which party he was going to into which party he was going to support. And as a the church, we should support. And as a the church, we should support. And as a the church, we should be the conscience of the nation. We be the conscience of the nation. We be the conscience of the nation. We should be the conscience of the nation should be the conscience of the nation should be the conscience of the nation to be able to call out people on the to be able to call out people on the to be able to call out people on the left, right, and in the middle when left, right, and in the middle when left, right, and in the middle when other people are injured or harmed. So, other people are injured or harmed. So, other people are injured or harmed. So, we reduce our position and we do reduce we reduce our position and we do reduce we reduce our position and we do reduce our influence when we stick our head in our influence when we stick our head in our influence when we stick our head in the sand or when we go all in on a the sand or when we go all in on a the sand or when we go all in on a candidate because again, you're you've candidate because again, you're you've candidate because again, you're you've just said to half the country, hey, you just said to half the country, hey, you just said to half the country, hey, you were we're not interested in ministering were we're not interested in ministering were we're not interested in ministering to you because, you know, you're not to you because, you know, you're not to you because, you know, you're not going to going to going to because we've already offended you because we've already offended you because we've already offended you before we begin the conversation anyway.

before we begin the conversation anyway. before we begin the conversation anyway. You get get the point. So, this is You get get the point. So, this is You get get the point. So, this is interesting. I never know where these interesting. I never know where these interesting. I never know where these conversations are going to go and conversations are going to go and conversations are going to go and surprise surprise, uh we often record surprise surprise, uh we often record surprise surprise, uh we often record the interviews out of the order that the interviews out of the order that the interviews out of the order that they are broadcast. So, you're the first they are broadcast. So, you're the first they are broadcast. So, you're the first in the series for the interviews, uh but in the series for the interviews, uh but in the series for the interviews, uh but I've I've done some of the other ones I've I've done some of the other ones I've I've done some of the other ones already that are coming up. And what's already that are coming up. And what's already that are coming up. And what's interesting cuz I didn't know what interesting cuz I didn't know what interesting cuz I didn't know what people were going to say people were going to say people were going to say is is is pretty much everyone, and I haven't done pretty much everyone, and I haven't done pretty much everyone, and I haven't done all the interviews yet, but you know, Ed all the interviews yet, but you know, Ed all the interviews yet, but you know, Ed Stetzer and T. Wright, um Stetzer and T. Wright, um Stetzer and T. Wright, um uh Michael Wear have all said sticking uh Michael Wear have all said sticking uh Michael Wear have all said sticking your head in the sand is not a godly your head in the sand is not a godly your head in the sand is not a godly option. And would agree that neither is option. And would agree that neither is option. And would agree that neither is endorsing a particular slate or endorsing a particular slate or endorsing a particular slate or candidate or picking a side in the candidate or picking a side in the candidate or picking a side in the or platform, yeah. or platform, etc. Um or platform, yeah. or platform, etc. Um or platform, yeah. or platform, etc. Um and they're all but they're they're and they're all but they're they're and they're all but they're they're saying there's there's another way. saying there's there's another way. saying there's there's another way. And they all have their own particular And they all have their own particular And they all have their own particular take on it, but you have another way as take on it, but you have another way as take on it, but you have another way as well. And I would love for you, well. And I would love for you, well. And I would love for you, if it's not sticking your head in the if it's not sticking your head in the if it's not sticking your head in the sand or picking a slate, sand or picking a slate, sand or picking a slate, Yeah. or or deciding on whatever someone Yeah. or or deciding on whatever someone Yeah. or or deciding on whatever someone else says the agenda is and then you else says the agenda is and then you else says the agenda is and then you actually just stamp it, Yeah. what actually just stamp it, Yeah. what actually just stamp it, Yeah. what should we do then? Well, I because I've should we do then? Well, I because I've should we do then? Well, I because I've talked about this so much in our talked about this so much in our talked about this so much in our churches, I have a phrase that I go back churches, I have a phrase that I go back churches, I have a phrase that I go back to over and over again. So, I'll tease to over and over again. So, I'll tease to over and over again. So, I'll tease it out just a little bit since you asked it out just a little bit since you asked it out just a little bit since you asked this important question. The way forward this important question. The way forward this important question. The way forward is to disagree politically, disagree is to disagree politically, disagree is to disagree politically, disagree culturally, disagree theology culturally, disagree theology culturally, disagree theology theologically, and love each other theologically, and love each other theologically, and love each other unconditionally. That's the way forward.

unconditionally. That's the way forward. unconditionally. That's the way forward. As we disagree politically, we disagree As we disagree politically, we disagree As we disagree politically, we disagree culturally, we can even disagree culturally, we can even disagree culturally, we can even disagree theologically, but I can still love you theologically, but I can still love you theologically, but I can still love you unconditionally and that's not weak. unconditionally and that's not weak. unconditionally and that's not weak. That is mature. And here's the thing, That is mature. And here's the thing, That is mature. And here's the thing, you know, newsflash, this is exactly you know, newsflash, this is exactly you know, newsflash, this is exactly what Jesus did. what Jesus did. what Jesus did. On how many issues do you think the On how many issues do you think the On how many issues do you think the people Jesus ministered to? How many people Jesus ministered to? How many people Jesus ministered to? How many issues did they line up with him issues did they line up with him issues did they line up with him perfectly when he showed up? I would say perfectly when he showed up? I would say perfectly when he showed up? I would say exactly zero. Zero. So, he shows up in a exactly zero. Zero. So, he shows up in a exactly zero. Zero. So, he shows up in a world where everybody is wrong about world where everybody is wrong about world where everybody is wrong about most things. Think about that. Everybody most things. Think about that. Everybody most things. Think about that. Everybody he encounters is wrong about most things he encounters is wrong about most things he encounters is wrong about most things and he loves them unconditionally and and he loves them unconditionally and and he loves them unconditionally and invites them to follow. That is the invites them to follow. That is the invites them to follow. That is the posture of the church. And a diverse posture of the church. And a diverse posture of the church. And a diverse group of men and ultimately women came group of men and ultimately women came group of men and ultimately women came together who normally would have not together who normally would have not together who normally would have not given each other the time of day. They given each other the time of day. They given each other the time of day. They hated each other or at least were hated each other or at least were hated each other or at least were offended by each other. Um and here's offended by each other. Um and here's offended by each other. Um and here's why this is effective, Carey, and this why this is effective, Carey, and this why this is effective, Carey, and this is why it is the way forward. Um is why it is the way forward. Um is why it is the way forward. Um This is effective because we're all This is effective because we're all This is effective because we're all wrong about something. And as long as wrong about something. And as long as wrong about something. And as long as I'm surrounded by and only listening to I'm surrounded by and only listening to I'm surrounded by and only listening to my tribe, I will continue to be my tribe, I will continue to be my tribe, I will continue to be confirmed in my error, which means I confirmed in my error, which means I confirmed in my error, which means I spend the rest of my life being wrong spend the rest of my life being wrong spend the rest of my life being wrong about something.

about something. about something. I want to know where I'm wrong. I love I want to know where I'm wrong. I love I want to know where I'm wrong. I love what Adam Grant says. He says, you know, what Adam Grant says. He says, you know, what Adam Grant says. He says, you know, when you find out you're wrong, you when you find out you're wrong, you when you find out you're wrong, you should celebrate. Huh, I'm not I'm not should celebrate. Huh, I'm not I'm not should celebrate. Huh, I'm not I'm not wrong anymore. I For years I've believed wrong anymore. I For years I've believed wrong anymore. I For years I've believed this. For years I've thought this way this. For years I've thought this way this. For years I've thought this way and and and I've just discovered I'm not wrong. I've I've just discovered I'm not wrong. I've I've just discovered I'm not wrong. I've been wrong and now I'm not wrong been wrong and now I'm not wrong been wrong and now I'm not wrong anymore. So, discovering where I have it anymore. So, discovering where I have it anymore. So, discovering where I have it wrong along with others assume that who wrong along with others assume that who wrong along with others assume that who assume that same posture assume that same posture assume that same posture is the best way to get things right and is the best way to get things right and is the best way to get things right and do the right things. I want to say that do the right things. I want to say that do the right things. I want to say that again. The if I can surround myself with again. The if I can surround myself with again. The if I can surround myself with other people who don't necessarily see other people who don't necessarily see other people who don't necessarily see the world the same way I do, but who the world the same way I do, but who the world the same way I do, but who recognize, hey, I have something to recognize, hey, I have something to recognize, hey, I have something to learn and I have things where I need to learn and I have things where I need to learn and I have things where I need to grow and change as well. When those grow and change as well. When those grow and change as well. When those kinds of people come together kinds of people come together kinds of people come together with that same posture, it is the best with that same posture, it is the best with that same posture, it is the best way to get things right and to then to way to get things right and to then to way to get things right and to then to do the things that make the biggest do the things that make the biggest do the things that make the biggest difference. difference. difference. This is why most people in our country This is why most people in our country This is why most people in our country and in Canada, we actually live and shop and in Canada, we actually live and shop and in Canada, we actually live and shop and go to school and work in the middle. and go to school and work in the middle. and go to school and work in the middle. We don't live in the extremes that we We don't live in the extremes that we We don't live in the extremes that we get dragged to during an election cycle.

get dragged to during an election cycle. get dragged to during an election cycle. We live in the middle where we discover We live in the middle where we discover We live in the middle where we discover where we're wrong, make things right, where we're wrong, make things right, where we're wrong, make things right, and then do the right thing. So, and then do the right thing. So, and then do the right thing. So, it's simple. It's exactly what Jesus it's simple. It's exactly what Jesus it's simple. It's exactly what Jesus said. We disagree politically, we can said. We disagree politically, we can said. We disagree politically, we can disagree culturally, we can disagree disagree culturally, we can disagree disagree culturally, we can disagree theologically, but because we choose to theologically, but because we choose to theologically, but because we choose to love each other unconditionally, we can love each other unconditionally, we can love each other unconditionally, we can talk and we can have nuance and we can talk and we can have nuance and we can talk and we can have nuance and we can go, oh, and we can enter into each go, oh, and we can enter into each go, oh, and we can enter into each other's life experiences. And the And other's life experiences. And the And other's life experiences. And the And where people disagree most vehemently where people disagree most vehemently where people disagree most vehemently are where they've not taken the time are where they've not taken the time are where they've not taken the time to experience or to dip into other to experience or to dip into other to experience or to dip into other people's life experiences. Again, as I people's life experiences. Again, as I people's life experiences. Again, as I tell our churches all the time, the tell our churches all the time, the tell our churches all the time, the further away you are from a problem, the further away you are from a problem, the further away you are from a problem, the simpler the solution appears to be. The simpler the solution appears to be. The simpler the solution appears to be. The further away you are from a problem, the further away you are from a problem, the further away you are from a problem, the simpler the solution appears to be. So, simpler the solution appears to be. So, simpler the solution appears to be. So, if you are far away from a group of if you are far away from a group of if you are far away from a group of people's lived experience, people's lived experience, people's lived experience, then you are confident you know the then you are confident you know the then you are confident you know the solution to their problem. And you're solution to their problem. And you're solution to their problem. And you're wrong. And they are equally as wrong wrong. And they are equally as wrong wrong. And they are equally as wrong about solving the problems they think about solving the problems they think about solving the problems they think I've created in my lived experience. But I've created in my lived experience. But I've created in my lived experience. But when we come together, we all say, when we come together, we all say, when we come together, we all say, "Oh.

"Oh. "Oh. Oh, I didn't know. And now we've learned Oh, I didn't know. And now we've learned Oh, I didn't know. And now we've learned and now we're making progress." And um and now we're making progress." And um and now we're making progress." And um when when when And here's the thing, just as lots of And here's the thing, just as lots of And here's the thing, just as lots of channels conversations I've had behind channels conversations I've had behind channels conversations I've had behind the scenes with people, the scenes with people, the scenes with people, there are so many extraordinary there are so many extraordinary there are so many extraordinary Republicans and Democrats in this Republicans and Democrats in this Republicans and Democrats in this country that would hear what I just said country that would hear what I just said country that would hear what I just said and and say, "That is exactly my and and say, "That is exactly my and and say, "That is exactly my posture. I care about the people in my posture. I care about the people in my posture. I care about the people in my community. I care about the people in my community. I care about the people in my community. I care about the people in my state. I care about the people in this state. I care about the people in this state. I care about the people in this nation. And I'm looking for a group of nation. And I'm looking for a group of nation. And I'm looking for a group of people that will say, 'Hey, we disagree people that will say, 'Hey, we disagree people that will say, 'Hey, we disagree culturally, politically, and maybe even culturally, politically, and maybe even culturally, politically, and maybe even theologically, but we can we can theologically, but we can we can theologically, but we can we can we can respect and honor each other. And we can respect and honor each other. And we can respect and honor each other. And we can talk about these things. So, that we can talk about these things. So, that we can talk about these things. So, that is the way forward." But interestingly is the way forward." But interestingly is the way forward." But interestingly enough, that was Jesus' way forward. And enough, that was Jesus' way forward. And enough, that was Jesus' way forward. And as Christians, we should we should be as Christians, we should we should be as Christians, we should we should be able to lead the way. Unfortunately, in able to lead the way. Unfortunately, in able to lead the way. Unfortunately, in some cases, we're creating the division. some cases, we're creating the division. some cases, we're creating the division. So, So, So, Thanks for asking. Hey, but I here's Thanks for asking. Hey, but I here's Thanks for asking. Hey, but I here's what I need to ask you though. Mhm. I what I need to ask you though. Mhm. I what I need to ask you though. Mhm. I just want to make sure that my answer to just want to make sure that my answer to just want to make sure that my answer to that question lined up with N.T. that question lined up with N.T. that question lined up with N.T. Wright's and Ed Stetzer's because I love Wright's and Ed Stetzer's because I love Wright's and Ed Stetzer's because I love those guys. So, if my answer was those guys. So, if my answer was those guys. So, if my answer was different, just go with their answer. I different, just go with their answer. I different, just go with their answer. I think those guys are smarter than me.

think those guys are smarter than me. think those guys are smarter than me. But anyway, But anyway, But anyway, You know, Andy, I've I've seen because You know, Andy, I've I've seen because You know, Andy, I've I've seen because we've known each other for 20 years, I we've known each other for 20 years, I we've known each other for 20 years, I think now, almost. Um I've watched you think now, almost. Um I've watched you think now, almost. Um I've watched you go through different rounds where people go through different rounds where people go through different rounds where people who are very disagreeable decide that who are very disagreeable decide that who are very disagreeable decide that they're going to disagree with you. they're going to disagree with you. they're going to disagree with you. And I also know more than the headlines And I also know more than the headlines And I also know more than the headlines that you'll often call those people that you'll often call those people that you'll often call those people you'll often, you know, DM them and say, you'll often, you know, DM them and say, you'll often, you know, DM them and say, "Hey, can we jump on a conversation?" If "Hey, can we jump on a conversation?" If "Hey, can we jump on a conversation?" If they're local, you'll go to coffee with they're local, you'll go to coffee with they're local, you'll go to coffee with people. Can you explain that a little people. Can you explain that a little people. Can you explain that a little bit because I think you've got scars and bit because I think you've got scars and bit because I think you've got scars and you have paid a very high price for you have paid a very high price for you have paid a very high price for doing exactly what you say. It's like, doing exactly what you say. It's like, doing exactly what you say. It's like, "All right, I'm going to go and have a "All right, I'm going to go and have a "All right, I'm going to go and have a conversation with my critic." Yeah. Do conversation with my critic." Yeah. Do conversation with my critic." Yeah. Do you want to explain what that looks like you want to explain what that looks like you want to explain what that looks like in your life? in your life? in your life? And I I really wish I could say And I I really wish I could say And I I really wish I could say publicly, talk publicly about the last publicly, talk publicly about the last publicly, talk publicly about the last conversation I I had with somebody who conversation I I had with somebody who conversation I I had with somebody who got on multiple stages got on multiple stages got on multiple stages and and and trashed me. Basically, I mean, like I trashed me. Basically, I mean, like I trashed me. Basically, I mean, like I just sat there watching this thinking, just sat there watching this thinking, just sat there watching this thinking, "I don't even They're not exaggerating "I don't even They're not exaggerating "I don't even They're not exaggerating something I said or did.

something I said or did. something I said or did. They're just making stuff up in front of They're just making stuff up in front of They're just making stuff up in front of several thousand people." And then I several thousand people." And then I several thousand people." And then I went to this person's podcast and cuz went to this person's podcast and cuz went to this person's podcast and cuz somebody sent me a I mean, horrible, somebody sent me a I mean, horrible, somebody sent me a I mean, horrible, misleading things. misleading things. misleading things. So, I did what I do. Found a friend who So, I did what I do. Found a friend who So, I did what I do. Found a friend who had a friend who had contact information had a friend who had contact information had a friend who had contact information and I finally um I texted him and then I and I finally um I texted him and then I and I finally um I texted him and then I called him. called him. called him. And I said, "Hey, And I said, "Hey, And I said, "Hey, hey, let's what what are you talking hey, let's what what are you talking hey, let's what what are you talking about? Where did you Well, very, very about? Where did you Well, very, very about? Where did you Well, very, very defensive. They're always very defensive defensive. They're always very defensive defensive. They're always very defensive because they've already gone public with because they've already gone public with because they've already gone public with but you know, Andy Stanley is but you know, Andy Stanley is but you know, Andy Stanley is Oh, absolutely. You know, this one the Oh, absolutely. You know, this one the Oh, absolutely. You know, this one the statement was that he I won't even tell statement was that he I won't even tell statement was that he I won't even tell you what he said. Anyway. So, um you what he said. Anyway. So, um you what he said. Anyway. So, um very defensive very defensive very defensive and then calms down, then I ask about and then calms down, then I ask about and then calms down, then I ask about his family, and then his family, and then his family, and then you know, suddenly suddenly I'm a you know, suddenly suddenly I'm a you know, suddenly suddenly I'm a person. Suddenly we Oh, yeah, we have person. Suddenly we Oh, yeah, we have person. Suddenly we Oh, yeah, we have different lived experience. Oh, different lived experience. Oh, different lived experience. Oh, I I'm not just a a square person on X, a I I'm not just a a square person on X, a I I'm not just a a square person on X, a square picture on X. I'm like a human square picture on X. I'm like a human square picture on X. I'm like a human being. And now um it's about 2 weeks being. And now um it's about 2 weeks being. And now um it's about 2 weeks later, this person texted me and said, later, this person texted me and said, later, this person texted me and said, "I did some I look I did some a little "I did some I look I did some a little "I did some I look I did some a little more background checking. I looked into more background checking. I looked into more background checking. I looked into what you told me and you're right. And I what you told me and you're right. And I what you told me and you're right. And I misrepresented you and I'm going to I'm misrepresented you and I'm going to I'm misrepresented you and I'm going to I'm going to go to the try to go to these going to go to the try to go to these going to go to the try to go to these same platforms and make this right." I same platforms and make this right." I same platforms and make this right." I said, "Hey, I appreciate it. And I said, "Hey, I appreciate it. And I said, "Hey, I appreciate it. And I didn't even ask you to do that. I just didn't even ask you to do that. I just didn't even ask you to do that. I just said, 'Hey, before you talk about me, said, 'Hey, before you talk about me, said, 'Hey, before you talk about me, talk to me. Now you have my cell phone talk to me. Now you have my cell phone talk to me. Now you have my cell phone number.' And hey, you can quote anything number.' And hey, you can quote anything number.' And hey, you can quote anything I said and trash it, tear it apart.

I said and trash it, tear it apart. I said and trash it, tear it apart. But the character assassination, that's But the character assassination, that's But the character assassination, that's that's middle school, okay? Christian that's middle school, okay? Christian that's middle school, okay? Christian This is a Chris This is a guy who This is a Chris This is a guy who This is a Chris This is a guy who who his the banner over everything he who his the banner over everything he who his the banner over everything he does is says is because he's a does is says is because he's a does is says is because he's a Christian. I'm like, Christian. I'm like, Christian. I'm like, "This is This is Christianity 101." So, "This is This is Christianity 101." So, "This is This is Christianity 101." So, when I have an opportunity to do that, I when I have an opportunity to do that, I when I have an opportunity to do that, I do that. It's why do that. It's why do that. It's why I'm never critical of anybody by name. I'm never critical of anybody by name. I'm never critical of anybody by name. I'm just not going to do that. I don't I'm just not going to do that. I don't I'm just not going to do that. I don't want to undermine a potential want to undermine a potential want to undermine a potential relationship before it begins. And so, relationship before it begins. And so, relationship before it begins. And so, that's just what I do. But hey, don't that's just what I do. But hey, don't that's just what I do. But hey, don't get don't say, "Oh, isn't Andy great?" get don't say, "Oh, isn't Andy great?" get don't say, "Oh, isn't Andy great?" No, this is No, this is No, this is I mean, this is I mean, this is I mean, this is This is 101 Christianity, right? This is This is 101 Christianity, right? This is This is 101 Christianity, right? This is how we're supposed to be. And if how we're supposed to be. And if how we're supposed to be. And if everybody would at least make an effort. everybody would at least make an effort. everybody would at least make an effort. And here's what I always get. "Well, we And here's what I always get. "Well, we And here's what I always get. "Well, we tried to reach out." I'm like, they just tried to reach out." I'm like, they just tried to reach out." I'm like, they just lie. It's just so funny. "We tried to lie. It's just so funny. "We tried to lie. It's just so funny. "We tried to contact your office." I'm like, "Are you contact your office." I'm like, "Are you contact your office." I'm like, "Are you kidding? Everybody Everybody I mean, I'm kidding? Everybody Everybody I mean, I'm kidding? Everybody Everybody I mean, I'm so easy to Anyway. So, I've just decided so easy to Anyway. So, I've just decided so easy to Anyway. So, I've just decided track people down. And it is amazing, track people down. And it is amazing, track people down. And it is amazing, Carey, who I who's the telephone and Carey, who I who's the telephone and Carey, who I who's the telephone and cell numbers I've been able to get and cell numbers I've been able to get and cell numbers I've been able to get and the conversations I've been able to the conversations I've been able to the conversations I've been able to have. And I'm grateful. And but I'm have. And I'm grateful. And but I'm have. And I'm grateful. And but I'm like, "This is what we do." So, anyway.

like, "This is what we do." So, anyway. like, "This is what we do." So, anyway. So, I want to a bit of an excursus here. So, I want to a bit of an excursus here. So, I want to a bit of an excursus here. You know, I want to talk about that a little more I want to talk about that a little more in depth because the posturing and the in depth because the posturing and the in depth because the posturing and the platforming, you know, you were kind platforming, you know, you were kind platforming, you know, you were kind enough to be guest number one on this enough to be guest number one on this enough to be guest number one on this podcast almost 10 years ago when it podcast almost 10 years ago when it podcast almost 10 years ago when it started and gave me a huge boost and started and gave me a huge boost and started and gave me a huge boost and I'm so grateful for that. Continue to be I'm so grateful for that. Continue to be I'm so grateful for that. Continue to be grateful for that to this day. And you grateful for that to this day. And you grateful for that to this day. And you know, here I am still in my basement, know, here I am still in my basement, know, here I am still in my basement, but but but to say to say to say to say, Andy, that this has been a to say, Andy, that this has been a to say, Andy, that this has been a little more successful than I thought it little more successful than I thought it little more successful than I thought it would be is an understatement. And Well, would be is an understatement. And Well, would be is an understatement. And Well, you've worked hard and you're really you've worked hard and you're really you've worked hard and you're really good at this. So, let's you know, Well, good at this. So, let's you know, Well, good at this. So, let's you know, Well, thank you. But it's it's way exceeded. thank you. But it's it's way exceeded. thank you. But it's it's way exceeded. And people ask me, "Well, how do you And people ask me, "Well, how do you And people ask me, "Well, how do you grow it? How do you grow it?" One of the grow it? How do you grow it?" One of the grow it? How do you grow it?" One of the things I figured out along the way, things I figured out along the way, things I figured out along the way, maybe starting 8 or 10 years ago, was maybe starting 8 or 10 years ago, was maybe starting 8 or 10 years ago, was there's a fast way to grow traffic. And there's a fast way to grow traffic. And there's a fast way to grow traffic. And the way I could have done it is I could the way I could have done it is I could the way I could have done it is I could have said, "Why Andy Stanley is a have said, "Why Andy Stanley is a have said, "Why Andy Stanley is a better" I'm going to pick another good better" I'm going to pick another good better" I'm going to pick another good friend here of both of ours, "Why Andy friend here of both of ours, "Why Andy friend here of both of ours, "Why Andy Stanley is a better communicator than Stanley is a better communicator than Stanley is a better communicator than Craig Rochelle or why Craig Rochelle can Craig Rochelle or why Craig Rochelle can Craig Rochelle or why Craig Rochelle can beat Andy Stanley in the gym." Which I beat Andy Stanley in the gym." Which I beat Andy Stanley in the gym." Which I know isn't true, Andy, but you know, know isn't true, Andy, but you know, know isn't true, Andy, but you know, theoretically, play along with me.

theoretically, play along with me. theoretically, play along with me. You know, if you start doing trash talk You know, if you start doing trash talk You know, if you start doing trash talk headlines, headlines, headlines, I can get 10x the traffic. And I would I can get 10x the traffic. And I would I can get 10x the traffic. And I would never do that. Number one, I respect and never do that. Number one, I respect and never do that. Number one, I respect and love both of you as leaders. And love both of you as leaders. And love both of you as leaders. And secondly, if you and I had a secondly, if you and I had a secondly, if you and I had a disagreement, we'd talk about it. We we disagreement, we'd talk about it. We we disagreement, we'd talk about it. We we we would talk about it. That does not we would talk about it. That does not we would talk about it. That does not belong online, but it's a super fast way belong online, but it's a super fast way belong online, but it's a super fast way to grow traffic. It's a way to grab to grow traffic. It's a way to grab to grow traffic. It's a way to grab headlines. headlines. headlines. I just love your thoughts on that I just love your thoughts on that I just love your thoughts on that because I also hear from a lot of young because I also hear from a lot of young because I also hear from a lot of young leaders who are starting platforms. And leaders who are starting platforms. And leaders who are starting platforms. And you know, that's you know, that's you know, that's that's a very dark way to get traffic. that's a very dark way to get traffic. that's a very dark way to get traffic. Yeah. Any Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Any Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Any Any thoughts on that? Well, it works. It does work. Well, it works. It does work. Well, it works. It does work. It works. It works. I mean, I I don't It works. It works. I mean, I I don't It works. It works. I mean, I I don't Nobody cares how many planes landed Nobody cares how many planes landed Nobody cares how many planes landed safely today. We want to know about the safely today. We want to know about the safely today. We want to know about the one that didn't. You know, nobody I one that didn't. You know, nobody I one that didn't. You know, nobody I mean, again, it's this, you know, mean, again, it's this, you know, mean, again, it's this, you know, currently we don't name names cuz currently we don't name names cuz currently we don't name names cuz everybody knows, but currently we've had everybody knows, but currently we've had everybody knows, but currently we've had three or four major evangelical leaders three or four major evangelical leaders three or four major evangelical leaders who've had some sort of moral failing or who've had some sort of moral failing or who've had some sort of moral failing or step back or whatever. Yep. And so, of step back or whatever. Yep. And so, of step back or whatever. Yep. And so, of course, you know, X or I keep calling it course, you know, X or I keep calling it course, you know, X or I keep calling it Twitter, you know, X is all about and Twitter, you know, X is all about and Twitter, you know, X is all about and and not so much Instagram, but other and not so much Instagram, but other and not so much Instagram, but other social media, it's like, "The social media, it's like, "The social media, it's like, "The evangelical church, mega churches, evangelical church, mega churches, evangelical church, mega churches, they're all full of this and full of they're all full of this and full of they're all full of this and full of that. They should be shut down, you that. They should be shut down, you that. They should be shut down, you know, because of these examples." Well, know, because of these examples." Well, know, because of these examples." Well, there are like 2,500 there are like 2,500 there are like 2,500 mega churches in the United States.

mega churches in the United States. mega churches in the United States. Most people couldn't name 10 mega church Most people couldn't name 10 mega church Most people couldn't name 10 mega church pastors. pastors. pastors. But the bad news is so much more But the bad news is so much more But the bad news is so much more interesting than the interesting than the interesting than the what happens in the middle. And people what happens in the middle. And people what happens in the middle. And people live in the middle. And so, yes, you're live in the middle. And so, yes, you're live in the middle. And so, yes, you're right. If you want to if you know, the right. If you want to if you know, the right. If you want to if you know, the further left or right you go, further left or right you go, further left or right you go, pick up followers, you get more pick up followers, you get more pick up followers, you get more advertising, you know, you all all the advertising, you know, you all all the advertising, you know, you all all the chickens kind of run to one side of the, chickens kind of run to one side of the, chickens kind of run to one side of the, you know, hen house or the other. So, you know, hen house or the other. So, you know, hen house or the other. So, yeah. And so, way to go for not doing yeah. And so, way to go for not doing yeah. And so, way to go for not doing that. Um it's a it's a lot harder, but that. Um it's a it's a lot harder, but that. Um it's a it's a lot harder, but you you've got more but the problem with you you've got more but the problem with you you've got more but the problem with the people who do that, they they have the people who do that, they they have the people who do that, they they have to get more and more and more extreme to get more and more and more extreme to get more and more and more extreme because that's what people are because that's what people are because that's what people are accustomed to. And they're kind of some accustomed to. And they're kind of some accustomed to. And they're kind of some of them are sort of running out of of them are sort of running out of of them are sort of running out of juice. And uh I don't know what's going juice. And uh I don't know what's going juice. And uh I don't know what's going to happen when, you know, this current to happen when, you know, this current to happen when, you know, this current wave of dysfunction goes away and wave of dysfunction goes away and wave of dysfunction goes away and there's another one. I guess they just there's another one. I guess they just there's another one. I guess they just pick up on that. But pick up on that. But pick up on that. But but and here's the thing, and before we but and here's the thing, and before we but and here's the thing, and before we change subject, Yeah. that's that's change subject, Yeah. that's that's change subject, Yeah. that's that's fine. I mean, we're you know, fine. I mean, we're you know, fine. I mean, we're you know, you know, I'm an American, so I won't you know, I'm an American, so I won't you know, I'm an American, so I won't say we're all Americans. But in the say we're all Americans. But in the say we're all Americans. But in the United States, you you you can do that.

United States, you you you can do that. United States, you you you can do that. You have the freedom to do that. I love You have the freedom to do that. I love You have the freedom to do that. I love the fact there's the freedom to do that. the fact there's the freedom to do that. the fact there's the freedom to do that. I just want to say to the Christians who I just want to say to the Christians who I just want to say to the Christians who are doing that, "Wait a minute. are doing that, "Wait a minute. are doing that, "Wait a minute. You're a Christian. You don't get a You're a Christian. You don't get a You're a Christian. You don't get a pass. You know, there's not a pass. You know, there's not a pass. You know, there's not a You're a follower of Jesus. So, if you You're a follower of Jesus. So, if you You're a follower of Jesus. So, if you want to do that, do that. But please want to do that, do that. But please want to do that, do that. But please don't mix it up with Christianity and don't mix it up with Christianity and don't mix it up with Christianity and put your cross out there and refer to put your cross out there and refer to put your cross out there and refer to the Bible and Jesus said and God to the Bible and Jesus said and God to the Bible and Jesus said and God to blend those two things. I mean, if James blend those two things. I mean, if James blend those two things. I mean, if James is correct, and James' brother Jesus, I is correct, and James' brother Jesus, I is correct, and James' brother Jesus, I think he was correct everything he think he was correct everything he think he was correct everything he wrote, you're going to have to you have wrote, you're going to have to you have wrote, you're going to have to you have to give an account for the fact that you to give an account for the fact that you to give an account for the fact that you leveraged you leveraged your king in leveraged you leveraged your king in leveraged you leveraged your king in order to criticize another group of order to criticize another group of order to criticize another group of people. It's like, "What?" So, people. It's like, "What?" So, people. It's like, "What?" So, go 100% secular and then scream and yell go 100% secular and then scream and yell go 100% secular and then scream and yell and cuss and criticize, and cuss and criticize, and cuss and criticize, but goodness gracious, don't try to but goodness gracious, don't try to but goodness gracious, don't try to blend that with the teaching of Jesus. I blend that with the teaching of Jesus. I blend that with the teaching of Jesus. I I just don't understand that. Maybe I'm I just don't understand that. Maybe I'm I just don't understand that. Maybe I'm I mean, I guess I'm somewhat naive, but I mean, I guess I'm somewhat naive, but I mean, I guess I'm somewhat naive, but that just seems that just seems that just seems really to me, but anyway.

really to me, but anyway. really to me, but anyway. I agree. I agree. You know, one one of I agree. I agree. You know, one one of I agree. I agree. You know, one one of the criticisms I get of my writing is, the criticisms I get of my writing is, the criticisms I get of my writing is, "How come there's no Bible in it? Like, "How come there's no Bible in it? Like, "How come there's no Bible in it? Like, you're a Christian." And I'm like, you're a Christian." And I'm like, you're a Christian." And I'm like, "Well, cuz I'm giving you my opinion "Well, cuz I'm giving you my opinion "Well, cuz I'm giving you my opinion Yeah. about leadership. I don't want to Yeah. about leadership. I don't want to Yeah. about leadership. I don't want to to use John Acuff's phrase, I don't want to use John Acuff's phrase, I don't want to use John Acuff's phrase, I don't want to Jesus juke you. I don't want to say to Jesus juke you. I don't want to say to Jesus juke you. I don't want to say "This is a pronouncer from on high. "This is a pronouncer from on high. "This is a pronouncer from on high. Everybody listen." You know, if I'm Everybody listen." You know, if I'm Everybody listen." You know, if I'm clear about something, I might use the clear about something, I might use the clear about something, I might use the scripture once in a while. If I'm scripture once in a while. If I'm scripture once in a while. If I'm preaching, whole other story. Yeah. But preaching, whole other story. Yeah. But preaching, whole other story. Yeah. But I I I I I I Yeah, well said. So, Andy, you've had Yeah, well said. So, Andy, you've had Yeah, well said. So, Andy, you've had hundreds of I don't think I'm hundreds of I don't think I'm hundreds of I don't think I'm exaggerating. Hundreds of one-on-one exaggerating. Hundreds of one-on-one exaggerating. Hundreds of one-on-one conversations with critics, both outside conversations with critics, both outside conversations with critics, both outside and inside your church. and inside your church. and inside your church. Right? And those are those are people Right? And those are those are people Right? And those are those are people who threatened to leave, people who did who threatened to leave, people who did who threatened to leave, people who did leave, Right. leave, Right. leave, Right. people who don't like the teaching people who don't like the teaching people who don't like the teaching anymore, it's too this, it's too watered anymore, it's too this, it's too watered anymore, it's too this, it's too watered down, it's too whatever, you know, just down, it's too whatever, you know, just down, it's too whatever, you know, just they left. they left. they left. Pastors hate that stuff. Yeah. sure you Pastors hate that stuff. Yeah. sure you Pastors hate that stuff. Yeah. sure you don't wake up excited about it in the don't wake up excited about it in the don't wake up excited about it in the morning when that's on your agenda. What morning when that's on your agenda. What morning when that's on your agenda. What are some tips that you have on how to are some tips that you have on how to are some tips that you have on how to have those conversations have those conversations have those conversations for people when for people when for people when the person you're meeting with, and for the person you're meeting with, and for the person you're meeting with, and for most of us, it's not going to be most of us, it's not going to be most of us, it's not going to be headlines, it's not going to be I got headlines, it's not going to be I got headlines, it's not going to be I got criticized in front of thousands of criticized in front of thousands of criticized in front of thousands of people. For most of us, it's going to be people. For most of us, it's going to be people. For most of us, it's going to be so-and-so's leaving the church. They're so-and-so's leaving the church. They're so-and-so's leaving the church. They're mad and they're taking 20 people with mad and they're taking 20 people with mad and they're taking 20 people with them.

them. them. You better have coffee with them. What You better have coffee with them. What You better have coffee with them. What is what is your advice on how to handle is what is your advice on how to handle is what is your advice on how to handle a conversation like that? a conversation like that? a conversation like that? Well, first, um I've not been successful Well, first, um I've not been successful Well, first, um I've not been successful in those conversations if success means in those conversations if success means in those conversations if success means when we're finished, they're like, "Oh, when we're finished, they're like, "Oh, when we're finished, they're like, "Oh, wow, well, never mind. I'm back. I'm wow, well, never mind. I'm back. I'm wow, well, never mind. I'm back. I'm back. I I just needed more information." back. I I just needed more information." back. I I just needed more information." Most of those conversations, and I have Most of those conversations, and I have Most of those conversations, and I have I don't know that you're exaggerating I don't know that you're exaggerating I don't know that you're exaggerating between COVID and the current situation, between COVID and the current situation, between COVID and the current situation, because I've I've gone met with small because I've I've gone met with small because I've I've gone met with small groups who were all up and I'm like, groups who were all up and I'm like, groups who were all up and I'm like, "I'll just come to your small group. You "I'll just come to your small group. You "I'll just come to your small group. You know, you don't have to report back. know, you don't have to report back. know, you don't have to report back. Just invite me." Just invite me." Just invite me." Um So, I've not been I I've not been Um So, I've not been I I've not been Um So, I've not been I I've not been successful at that in terms of I successful at that in terms of I successful at that in terms of I probably have a eight to 10 I mean, a probably have a eight to 10 I mean, a probably have a eight to 10 I mean, a you know, eight out of 10 of those you know, eight out of 10 of those you know, eight out of 10 of those conversations, I don't change anybody's conversations, I don't change anybody's conversations, I don't change anybody's mind. But mind. But mind. But I am a pastor first and foremost. My my I am a pastor first and foremost. My my I am a pastor first and foremost. My my primary audience is not a podcast primary audience is not a podcast primary audience is not a podcast audience or television audience. My audience or television audience. My audience or television audience. My primary audience is our local church. primary audience is our local church. primary audience is our local church. That's that's who I love. That's what I That's that's who I love. That's what I That's that's who I love. That's what I love to do. So, when I would find out love to do. So, when I would find out love to do. So, when I would find out somebody's leaving, somebody's leaving, somebody's leaving, first thing is, how involved are they?

first thing is, how involved are they? first thing is, how involved are they? How long have they been here? Because uh How long have they been here? Because uh How long have they been here? Because uh you know, the more the longer they've you know, the more the longer they've you know, the more the longer they've been here, the more they've served, been here, the more they've served, been here, the more they've served, gosh, I I don't want them to just gosh, I I don't want them to just gosh, I I don't want them to just disappear without a conversation. disappear without a conversation. disappear without a conversation. And I always call, I always make myself And I always call, I always make myself And I always call, I always make myself available. available. available. Um And I'm busy like every pastor's Um And I'm busy like every pastor's Um And I'm busy like every pastor's busy, and I get tired of having the same busy, and I get tired of having the same busy, and I get tired of having the same conversation over and over and over. But conversation over and over and over. But conversation over and over and over. But these two these two these two crisis points coming out of COVID and crisis points coming out of COVID and crisis points coming out of COVID and then the current political situation and then the current political situation and then the current political situation and then the conference that we had last then the conference that we had last then the conference that we had last year, um those year, um those year, um those those were legit I mean, people had those were legit I mean, people had those were legit I mean, people had legitimate questions, and because of all legitimate questions, and because of all legitimate questions, and because of all the misinformation in our case, of the misinformation in our case, of the misinformation in our case, of course they did. So, I'm like, "Hey, I course they did. So, I'm like, "Hey, I course they did. So, I'm like, "Hey, I you know, I'm sort of to blame, I guess, you know, I'm sort of to blame, I guess, you know, I'm sort of to blame, I guess, for this because I'm the leader. So, for this because I'm the leader. So, for this because I'm the leader. So, let's have the conversation." let's have the conversation." let's have the conversation." So, to to to answer your question to So, to to to answer your question to So, to to to answer your question to pastors, pastors, pastors, um um um calling people back, making yourself calling people back, making yourself calling people back, making yourself available. Hey, I'd love to come over. available. Hey, I'd love to come over. available. Hey, I'd love to come over. Hey, I'd love for you to come over. Your Hey, I'd love for you to come over. Your Hey, I'd love for you to come over. Your whole group's mad. What if I just come whole group's mad. What if I just come whole group's mad. What if I just come to your home, to your small group? to your home, to your small group? to your home, to your small group? And in most cases, people won't And in most cases, people won't And in most cases, people won't necessarily want to have the necessarily want to have the necessarily want to have the conversation, but I think the best thing conversation, but I think the best thing conversation, but I think the best thing we can do is to make ourselves available we can do is to make ourselves available we can do is to make ourselves available and listen, listen, listen, listen, and listen, listen, listen, listen, and listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Mhm. Not because you're going to listen. Mhm. Not because you're going to listen. Mhm. Not because you're going to change a lot of minds. You might. For change a lot of minds. You might. For change a lot of minds. You might. For sure, you'll learn some things. And what sure, you'll learn some things. And what sure, you'll learn some things. And what I learned I learned I learned is that and this isn't a shock to any is that and this isn't a shock to any is that and this isn't a shock to any pastor out there. What I learned, the pastor out there. What I learned, the pastor out there. What I learned, the presenting issue is never the issue.

presenting issue is never the issue. presenting issue is never the issue. God, there you Ever. God, there you Ever. God, there you Ever. Ever ever ever. And the other thing I Ever ever ever. And the other thing I Ever ever ever. And the other thing I discovered or that I was reiterated for discovered or that I was reiterated for discovered or that I was reiterated for me as me as me as most people are unaware And And we're most people are unaware And And we're most people are unaware And And we're And And I'm probably the same way. Most And And I'm probably the same way. Most And And I'm probably the same way. Most people are unaware of the real issue. people are unaware of the real issue. people are unaware of the real issue. Because we live in the world of Because we live in the world of Because we live in the world of presenting issues, cuz it's easy. The presenting issues, cuz it's easy. The presenting issues, cuz it's easy. The presenting issue, I'm right. I know I'm presenting issue, I'm right. I know I'm presenting issue, I'm right. I know I'm right. And I've got energy. right. And I've got energy. right. And I've got energy. Once you diffuse my initial energy, we Once you diffuse my initial energy, we Once you diffuse my initial energy, we get down to the real issues. Now Now get down to the real issues. Now Now get down to the real issues. Now Now it's complicated. It's not as clear. And it's complicated. It's not as clear. And it's complicated. It's not as clear. And I don't have as much energy. I can't I don't have as much energy. I can't I don't have as much energy. I can't argue as hard because argue as hard because argue as hard because yeah, it's true. I've never met these yeah, it's true. I've never met these yeah, it's true. I've never met these people. Yeah, it's true. I've never had people. Yeah, it's true. I've never had people. Yeah, it's true. I've never had that life experience. No, it it's you that life experience. No, it it's you that life experience. No, it it's you know, it it just gets more complicated. know, it it just gets more complicated. know, it it just gets more complicated. And um And um And um So, I would in these conversations, I So, I would in these conversations, I So, I would in these conversations, I would try to gently get past the would try to gently get past the would try to gently get past the presenting issue to the core issues, and presenting issue to the core issues, and presenting issue to the core issues, and then I would just sit back and decide, then I would just sit back and decide, then I would just sit back and decide, okay, do they want to go there? If okay, do they want to go there? If okay, do they want to go there? If great, I will. If not, you know, my my great, I will. If not, you know, my my great, I will. If not, you know, my my work here is done. And off we go. work here is done. And off we go. work here is done. And off we go. Let's go deeper on that. The presenting Let's go deeper on that. The presenting Let's go deeper on that. The presenting issue is never the real issue. I've issue is never the real issue. I've issue is never the real issue. I've heard it rarely. Rarely. Rarely. What do heard it rarely. Rarely. Rarely. What do heard it rarely. Rarely. Rarely. What do you mean by that?

you mean by that? you mean by that? Um Um Um Oh, here's an example. Yeah. Three Oh, here's an example. Yeah. Three Oh, here's an example. Yeah. Three generation family. So, there's parents, generation family. So, there's parents, generation family. So, there's parents, their kids, and their grandkids. All the their kids, and their grandkids. All the their kids, and their grandkids. All the everybody's leaving the church. Mhm. So, everybody's leaving the church. Mhm. So, everybody's leaving the church. Mhm. So, the the parents, the older couple, I'd the the parents, the older couple, I'd the the parents, the older couple, I'd say older, they're you know, my age. say older, they're you know, my age. say older, they're you know, my age. They come in. They come in. They come in. And they're And I And I invited them. And they're And I And I invited them. And they're And I And I invited them. I've known them for years. They've done I've known them for years. They've done I've known them for years. They've done it They've been involved. They raised it They've been involved. They raised it They've been involved. They raised their kids and now their grandkids. So, their kids and now their grandkids. So, their kids and now their grandkids. So, this is, you know, this is, you know, this is, you know, And they we would they went on and on And they we would they went on and on And they we would they went on and on and on and on and on and on. And I and on and on and on and on. And I and on and on and on and on. And I listened and asked questions. And then listened and asked questions. And then listened and asked questions. And then And here's what I Here's another little And here's what I Here's another little And here's what I Here's another little tip for pastors or anybody. tip for pastors or anybody. tip for pastors or anybody. Listen for emotion. I mean, there's lots Listen for emotion. I mean, there's lots Listen for emotion. I mean, there's lots of information, but you watch what a of information, but you watch what a of information, but you watch what a person gets most amped up about. And person gets most amped up about. And person gets most amped up about. And you look for the thing that creates you look for the thing that creates you look for the thing that creates deep emotion like tears. And during this deep emotion like tears. And during this deep emotion like tears. And during this conversation, conversation, conversation, as we were talking, I realized as we were talking, I realized as we were talking, I realized what what their real issue is is I have what what their real issue is is I have what what their real issue is is I have embarrassed them in front of their embarrassed them in front of their embarrassed them in front of their friends. Oh. Now, that's not why they friends. Oh. Now, that's not why they friends. Oh. Now, that's not why they came in. In fact, I don't think it ever came in. In fact, I don't think it ever came in. In fact, I don't think it ever dawned on them. But as they talked, and dawned on them. But as they talked, and dawned on them. But as they talked, and they were so angry, and why would we do they were so angry, and why would we do they were so angry, and why would we do this, and da da da da da da da da da.

this, and da da da da da da da da da. this, and da da da da da da da da da. But every once in a while, they would But every once in a while, they would But every once in a while, they would talk about, talk about, talk about, you know, their friends. And then I you know, their friends. And then I you know, their friends. And then I noticed um this the particular the wife, noticed um this the particular the wife, noticed um this the particular the wife, um when she started talking about her um when she started talking about her um when she started talking about her Bible study, the women in her Bible Bible study, the women in her Bible Bible study, the women in her Bible study, she got very emotional. Mhm. So, study, she got very emotional. Mhm. So, study, she got very emotional. Mhm. So, I let them finish, and then I even said I let them finish, and then I even said I let them finish, and then I even said I said, hey, cuz I've known them for a I said, hey, cuz I've known them for a I said, hey, cuz I've known them for a long time. I said, "Hey, can I just long time. I said, "Hey, can I just long time. I said, "Hey, can I just make an observation?" I said, make an observation?" I said, make an observation?" I said, "I think what's behind your anger "I think what's behind your anger "I think what's behind your anger is is is I embarrassed you. I embarrassed you. I embarrassed you. And I want to apologize for that. And of And I want to apologize for that. And of And I want to apologize for that. And of course, I didn't do it on purpose, but I course, I didn't do it on purpose, but I course, I didn't do it on purpose, but I totally get how what was out there in totally get how what was out there in totally get how what was out there in the media and what we did as a church, the media and what we did as a church, the media and what we did as a church, you weren't able to defend your own you weren't able to defend your own you weren't able to defend your own church and your own pastor, and I church and your own pastor, and I church and your own pastor, and I embarrassed you, and I'm so sorry." And embarrassed you, and I'm so sorry." And embarrassed you, and I'm so sorry." And they both started weeping. Mhm. Now, they both started weeping. Mhm. Now, they both started weeping. Mhm. Now, they left the church. Mhm. And their they left the church. Mhm. And their they left the church. Mhm. And their kids and grandkids, um kids and grandkids, um kids and grandkids, um you know, everybody's gone as far as I you know, everybody's gone as far as I you know, everybody's gone as far as I know. They haven't come back. But you know. They haven't come back. But you know. They haven't come back. But you know what? Where it was so friendly at know what? Where it was so friendly at know what? Where it was so friendly at the end, and there was just a But again, the end, and there was just a But again, the end, and there was just a But again, presenting issue, real issue. And I'm presenting issue, real issue. And I'm presenting issue, real issue. And I'm not a counselor, and I And I don't think not a counselor, and I And I don't think not a counselor, and I And I don't think we have to we have to we have to try to get people there necessarily. But try to get people there necessarily. But try to get people there necessarily. But I just want to encourage pastors and say I just want to encourage pastors and say I just want to encourage pastors and say this, this, this, um try not to take offense at the um try not to take offense at the um try not to take offense at the presenting issue. There's generally more presenting issue. There's generally more presenting issue. There's generally more going on behind the scenes, either that going on behind the scenes, either that going on behind the scenes, either that has nothing to do with your church, has nothing to do with your church, has nothing to do with your church, nothing to do with your preaching, but nothing to do with your preaching, but nothing to do with your preaching, but they bring that energy with them because they bring that energy with them because they bring that energy with them because hey, I've got something I can kind of hey, I've got something I can kind of hey, I've got something I can kind of pack it all around. I can't believe you pack it all around. I can't believe you pack it all around. I can't believe you said this, preached this, wouldn't do said this, preached this, wouldn't do said this, preached this, wouldn't do this. Pastor, why don't you take a this. Pastor, why don't you take a this. Pastor, why don't you take a stand? To which, you know, I always say, stand? To which, you know, I always say, stand? To which, you know, I always say, "I have taken a stand. I just didn't "I have taken a stand. I just didn't "I have taken a stand. I just didn't take your stand. Because you don't You take your stand. Because you don't You take your stand. Because you don't You don't really want me to just take a

don't really want me to just take a don't really want me to just take a stand. You want me to take your stand. stand. You want me to take your stand. stand. You want me to take your stand. And I have taken a stand. I am a And I have taken a stand. I am a And I have taken a stand. I am a follower of a king. And if it ain't good follower of a king. And if it ain't good follower of a king. And if it ain't good news, it's not the right version of, you news, it's not the right version of, you news, it's not the right version of, you know, the message of Jesus. So, anyway, know, the message of Jesus. So, anyway, know, the message of Jesus. So, anyway, I don't know if that's helpful, but I don't know if that's helpful, but I don't know if that's helpful, but That is extremely helpful. So, I don't That is extremely helpful. So, I don't That is extremely helpful. So, I don't know whether you'd be familiar with this know whether you'd be familiar with this know whether you'd be familiar with this work or not, but there's a professor, a work or not, but there's a professor, a work or not, but there's a professor, a writer, a negotiator named William Ury. writer, a negotiator named William Ury. writer, a negotiator named William Ury. And I've been studying him from law And I've been studying him from law And I've been studying him from law school on. It's almost mandated at law school on. It's almost mandated at law school on. It's almost mandated at law school that you read him and Roger school that you read him and Roger school that you read him and Roger Fisher. And I had the privilege of Fisher. And I had the privilege of Fisher. And I had the privilege of having him on the podcast, and he's having him on the podcast, and he's having him on the podcast, and he's negotiated everything from Middle East negotiated everything from Middle East negotiated everything from Middle East peace peace peace to Remember when it was Trump and North to Remember when it was Trump and North to Remember when it was Trump and North Korea about nuclear arms going to blow Korea about nuclear arms going to blow Korea about nuclear arms going to blow up the world? He was involved in that. up the world? He was involved in that. up the world? He was involved in that. And basically, he de-escalates conflict. And basically, he de-escalates conflict. And basically, he de-escalates conflict. Mhm. And William William was brilliant, Mhm. And William William was brilliant, Mhm. And William William was brilliant, gave was very generous with his time. gave was very generous with his time. gave was very generous with his time. And I tested a theory I had with him And I tested a theory I had with him And I tested a theory I had with him that, you know, could have gone down in that, you know, could have gone down in that, you know, could have gone down in smoke, but I've said it for years to smoke, but I've said it for years to smoke, but I've said it for years to leaders when I've been leaders when I've been leaders when I've been counseling them. It's like 95% of the counseling them. It's like 95% of the counseling them. It's like 95% of the problems in the church have nothing to problems in the church have nothing to problems in the church have nothing to No. to do with the church. And No. to do with the church. And No. to do with the church. And he agreed. And when you said, when you he agreed. And when you said, when you he agreed. And when you said, when you can get to the emotion can get to the emotion can get to the emotion underneath that, when you listen for underneath that, when you listen for underneath that, when you listen for that language. He's a This is a business that language. He's a This is a business that language. He's a This is a business dispute.

dispute. dispute. Two billionaires fighting for a decade. Two billionaires fighting for a decade. Two billionaires fighting for a decade. It was destroying their lives, right? It was destroying their lives, right? It was destroying their lives, right? Just really a contest of one against the Just really a contest of one against the Just really a contest of one against the other. other. other. And he listened for something, and he And he listened for something, and he And he listened for something, and he said he's trying to get past positions said he's trying to get past positions said he's trying to get past positions to interest, and he hears uh you know, to interest, and he hears uh you know, to interest, and he hears uh you know, the guy spoke Portuguese, and he said the guy spoke Portuguese, and he said the guy spoke Portuguese, and he said something I'm going to get it wrong like something I'm going to get it wrong like something I'm going to get it wrong like "Libertado." But he said it with such "Libertado." But he said it with such "Libertado." But he said it with such force. force. force. And it was like, "Liberty? Liberty? And it was like, "Liberty? Liberty? And it was like, "Liberty? Liberty? That's what you're after? Freedom? That's what you're after? Freedom? That's what you're after? Freedom? Freedom? Tell me about that." And as he Freedom? Tell me about that." And as he Freedom? Tell me about that." And as he dug down, he found out that he was held dug down, he found out that he was held dug down, he found out that he was held hostage hostage hostage as a young man. Mhm. And he felt hemmed as a young man. Mhm. And he felt hemmed as a young man. Mhm. And he felt hemmed in by this. And then he broke down in in by this. And then he broke down in in by this. And then he broke down in tears, you know, this 80-year-old tears, you know, this 80-year-old tears, you know, this 80-year-old billionaire executive billionaire executive billionaire executive breaks down in tears. And the next thing breaks down in tears. And the next thing breaks down in tears. And the next thing you know, you know, you know, they agreed on terms and settled the they agreed on terms and settled the they agreed on terms and settled the deal. deal. deal. But that was I don't think he knew that But that was I don't think he knew that But that was I don't think he knew that was driving him. And I found, you know, was driving him. And I found, you know, was driving him. And I found, you know, in my experience, Andy, I've had people in my experience, Andy, I've had people in my experience, Andy, I've had people so mad at me uh cuz I was changing the so mad at me uh cuz I was changing the so mad at me uh cuz I was changing the church. But you really drill down, and church. But you really drill down, and church. But you really drill down, and they were mad cuz their kids weren't they were mad cuz their kids weren't they were mad cuz their kids weren't coming, or their their kids liked it coming, or their their kids liked it coming, or their their kids liked it more than they did, or that, you know, more than they did, or that, you know, more than they did, or that, you know, their wife was terminally ill, or their wife was terminally ill, or their wife was terminally ill, or uh that they had a child who was really uh that they had a child who was really uh that they had a child who was really struggling with an addiction and on the struggling with an addiction and on the struggling with an addiction and on the verge of going to rehab, or those other verge of going to rehab, or those other verge of going to rehab, or those other life issues. Has that ever presented in life issues. Has that ever presented in life issues. Has that ever presented in all your years of pastoring? Absolutely.

all your years of pastoring? Absolutely. all your years of pastoring? Absolutely. Yeah. People are afraid of things. Yeah. People are afraid of things. Yeah. People are afraid of things. People are insecure about things, People are insecure about things, People are insecure about things, everybody has a past, everybody has everybody has a past, everybody has everybody has a past, everybody has parents, everybody has some dysfunction. parents, everybody has some dysfunction. parents, everybody has some dysfunction. And and not I'm not saying those people And and not I'm not saying those people And and not I'm not saying those people out there, all of us carry that stuff out there, all of us carry that stuff out there, all of us carry that stuff into into every relationship, right? into into every relationship, right? into into every relationship, right? Every single one. And as you get older, Every single one. And as you get older, Every single one. And as you get older, I mean, I know for me I mean, I know for me I mean, I know for me hopefully, you know, hopefully, you know, hopefully, you know, you develop some you develop some you develop some some self-awareness. And for me, I've some self-awareness. And for me, I've some self-awareness. And for me, I've just learned when I'm just learned when I'm just learned when I'm angry, I I'm like, "Okay, Andy, I just angry, I I'm like, "Okay, Andy, I just angry, I I'm like, "Okay, Andy, I just assume I just assume the target of my assume I just assume the target of my assume I just assume the target of my anger is not my issue." I just assume anger is not my issue." I just assume anger is not my issue." I just assume that. I'm like, "Okay, you want to go in that. I'm like, "Okay, you want to go in that. I'm like, "Okay, you want to go in there and say this, you want to go in there and say this, you want to go in there and say this, you want to go in there, okay, Andy, there, okay, Andy, there, okay, Andy, what's really going on here? You know, what's really going on here? You know, what's really going on here? You know, what what's What are you mad about what what's What are you mad about what what's What are you mad about really?" really?" really?" And generally, if if I just sit back, And generally, if if I just sit back, And generally, if if I just sit back, you I finally get there. I mean, even on you I finally get there. I mean, even on you I finally get there. I mean, even on a Sunday morning, I'll I'll get in and a Sunday morning, I'll I'll get in and a Sunday morning, I'll I'll get in and I'll I'll I'll we're doing warm-up and music and all we're doing warm-up and music and all we're doing warm-up and music and all stuff and I'll I'll be so frustrated stuff and I'll I'll be so frustrated stuff and I'll I'll be so frustrated about something, frustrated and I know about something, frustrated and I know about something, frustrated and I know if I'm not careful, I'm going to take it if I'm not careful, I'm going to take it if I'm not careful, I'm going to take it out on the people around me. I'm just out on the people around me. I'm just out on the people around me. I'm just going to be a little short and snippy.

going to be a little short and snippy. going to be a little short and snippy. I'm like, "Okay. Okay, Andy, I'm like, "Okay. Okay, Andy, I'm like, "Okay. Okay, Andy, what what's wrong with you? This is Are what what's wrong with you? This is Are what what's wrong with you? This is Are you kidding? You have everything in the you kidding? You have everything in the you kidding? You have everything in the world to be grateful for. What's wrong world to be grateful for. What's wrong world to be grateful for. What's wrong with you? Well, with you? Well, with you? Well, I I I you know, I wasn't always that way. I you know, I wasn't always that way. I you know, I wasn't always that way. I was certainly wasn't that way in my 20s was certainly wasn't that way in my 20s was certainly wasn't that way in my 20s or I don't think in my 30s. So, but if or I don't think in my 30s. So, but if or I don't think in my 30s. So, but if if we can all just if we can all just if we can all just have a little version of that, then you have a little version of that, then you have a little version of that, then you can pretty much get along with anybody can pretty much get along with anybody can pretty much get along with anybody and solve just about anything. So, yeah, and solve just about anything. So, yeah, and solve just about anything. So, yeah, the presenting problem. And again, you the presenting problem. And again, you the presenting problem. And again, you know where this manifests itself in know where this manifests itself in know where this manifests itself in evangelicalism right now? And I don't evangelicalism right now? And I don't evangelicalism right now? And I don't want to get I don't want to get too want to get I don't want to get too want to get I don't want to get too specific cuz it'll take people's minds specific cuz it'll take people's minds specific cuz it'll take people's minds off what we're talking about. There are off what we're talking about. There are off what we're talking about. There are two or three really hot bed issues, two two or three really hot bed issues, two two or three really hot bed issues, two in particular, that are Soon as you put in particular, that are Soon as you put in particular, that are Soon as you put those out there, everybody's amen, and those out there, everybody's amen, and those out there, everybody's amen, and we're ready to take, you know, hell with we're ready to take, you know, hell with we're ready to take, you know, hell with a water pistol cuz these issues are so a water pistol cuz these issues are so a water pistol cuz these issues are so clear. clear. clear. I'm telling you, I had so many I'm telling you, I had so many I'm telling you, I had so many conversations with people who come in, conversations with people who come in, conversations with people who come in, those are front burner issues. those are front burner issues. those are front burner issues. They no more really care about those They no more really care about those They no more really care about those issues than the man in the moon. They've issues than the man in the moon. They've issues than the man in the moon. They've never met anybody that struggles with never met anybody that struggles with never met anybody that struggles with whatever it is, they've never met a whatever it is, they've never met a whatever it is, they've never met a person who's been through that. They person who's been through that. They person who's been through that. They Those Again, it's something so far away Those Again, it's something so far away Those Again, it's something so far away that I can get amped up about it because that I can get amped up about it because that I can get amped up about it because it's crystal clear what those people it's crystal clear what those people it's crystal clear what those people need to do. And when they come in with need to do. And when they come in with need to do. And when they come in with that kind of energy and anger, it's that kind of energy and anger, it's that kind of energy and anger, it's like, "Okay, like, "Okay, like, "Okay, seriously, seriously, seriously, that that that you know, that's generally a telltale you know, that's generally a telltale you know, that's generally a telltale sign that somebody really hasn't dealt sign that somebody really hasn't dealt sign that somebody really hasn't dealt with their own stuff, but they found with their own stuff, but they found with their own stuff, but they found something else to hang it on. And that's something else to hang it on. And that's something else to hang it on. And that's part of just the role of being a pastor, part of just the role of being a pastor, part of just the role of being a pastor, helping people sort through all that.

helping people sort through all that. helping people sort through all that. But I think there is a ton of that a ton But I think there is a ton of that a ton But I think there is a ton of that a ton of that is what's happening in politics of that is what's happening in politics of that is what's happening in politics in America because I can say this since in America because I can say this since in America because I can say this since I'm an old white guy, the old white guys I'm an old white guy, the old white guys I'm an old white guy, the old white guys feel like they I don't feel this way feel like they I don't feel this way feel like they I don't feel this way that they're losing control, they're that they're losing control, they're that they're losing control, they're losing the country, they're losing losing the country, they're losing losing the country, they're losing respect. And now we have a candidate respect. And now we have a candidate respect. And now we have a candidate that's going to represent us. Oh, yeah, that's going to represent us. Oh, yeah, that's going to represent us. Oh, yeah, and by the way, I go to church every and by the way, I go to church every and by the way, I go to church every Sunday. I'm sure Jesus must feel the Sunday. I'm sure Jesus must feel the Sunday. I'm sure Jesus must feel the same way and we all wrap our ideology same way and we all wrap our ideology same way and we all wrap our ideology with a little bit of theology and now with a little bit of theology and now with a little bit of theology and now God is on our side God is on our side God is on our side and against the other people and Jesus and against the other people and Jesus and against the other people and Jesus is just like, "Oh my gosh, they still is just like, "Oh my gosh, they still is just like, "Oh my gosh, they still want to torch the Samaritans." I mean, want to torch the Samaritans." I mean, want to torch the Samaritans." I mean, they're they they're they they're they Are they not paying attention? You know, Are they not paying attention? You know, Are they not paying attention? You know, they got four versions of my life and they got four versions of my life and they got four versions of my life and they're, you know, still trying to torch they're, you know, still trying to torch they're, you know, still trying to torch the Samaritans. So, anyway. Well, you the Samaritans. So, anyway. Well, you the Samaritans. So, anyway. Well, you really you really study history in, you really you really study history in, you really you really study history in, you know, know, know, I'm certainly a huge fan of America, I'm certainly a huge fan of America, I'm certainly a huge fan of America, spent a lot of time there, spent a lot of time there, spent a lot of time there, married an American, the whole deal. married an American, the whole deal. married an American, the whole deal. But But But some would say that this is some would say that this is some would say that this is characteristic of a declining empire.

characteristic of a declining empire. characteristic of a declining empire. That when you look at I mean, you That when you look at I mean, you That when you look at I mean, you studied Rome, you've studied ancient studied Rome, you've studied ancient studied Rome, you've studied ancient history. I know you read widely in that history. I know you read widely in that history. I know you read widely in that area. area. area. Any thoughts on that? And, you know, as Any thoughts on that? And, you know, as Any thoughts on that? And, you know, as you look at the global imbalance and you you look at the global imbalance and you you look at the global imbalance and you look at, you know, like Britain, well, look at, you know, like Britain, well, look at, you know, like Britain, well, my background, Holland was the my background, Holland was the my background, Holland was the superpower of the 16th century. Nobody superpower of the 16th century. Nobody superpower of the 16th century. Nobody knows that, nobody remembers that. You knows that, nobody remembers that. You knows that, nobody remembers that. You got a Holland is a little docile country got a Holland is a little docile country got a Holland is a little docile country in North West Europe, right? It's like in North West Europe, right? It's like in North West Europe, right? It's like you were a superpower. you were a superpower. you were a superpower. But they owned the seas. If you owned But they owned the seas. If you owned But they owned the seas. If you owned the seas, you owned trade, you owned the the seas, you owned trade, you owned the the seas, you owned trade, you owned the world. That's right. world. That's right. world. That's right. 100%. You know, Portugal, Spain for a 100%. You know, Portugal, Spain for a 100%. You know, Portugal, Spain for a while, England, we all kind of have some while, England, we all kind of have some while, England, we all kind of have some memory of England if not, you know, more memory of England if not, you know, more memory of England if not, you know, more recent. And then the American empire, recent. And then the American empire, recent. And then the American empire, you know, but now you look at India, you you know, but now you look at India, you you know, but now you look at India, you look at China, you look at other powers look at China, you look at other powers look at China, you look at other powers and and and uh uh uh the the truce, the peace has been broken the the truce, the peace has been broken the the truce, the peace has been broken and the equilibrium dislodged. Any and the equilibrium dislodged. Any and the equilibrium dislodged. Any thoughts about what happens when an thoughts about what happens when an thoughts about what happens when an empire struggles? Well, let me just empire struggles? Well, let me just empire struggles? Well, let me just respond to what you said. I'm not I'm respond to what you said. I'm not I'm respond to what you said. I'm not I'm not worried about that for the United not worried about that for the United not worried about that for the United States for multiple reasons. And I I'm States for multiple reasons. And I I'm States for multiple reasons. And I I'm no certainly I'm no prophet and I'm not no certainly I'm no prophet and I'm not no certainly I'm no prophet and I'm not an actual historian. I just like an actual historian. I just like an actual historian. I just like history. Yeah, you do read a lot.

history. Yeah, you do read a lot. history. Yeah, you do read a lot. But I'm not concerned about that for But I'm not concerned about that for But I'm not concerned about that for multiple reasons. One, we are sea to multiple reasons. One, we are sea to multiple reasons. One, we are sea to shining sea, we are in the perfect shining sea, we are in the perfect shining sea, we are in the perfect climate, we're gigantic, we are a world climate, we're gigantic, we are a world climate, we're gigantic, we are a world unto ourselves even though we should not unto ourselves even though we should not unto ourselves even though we should not retreat to be a world unto ourselves. retreat to be a world unto ourselves. retreat to be a world unto ourselves. Um Um Um our country is so healthy right now, you our country is so healthy right now, you our country is so healthy right now, you would you would know it, you know, if would you would know it, you know, if would you would know it, you know, if you listen to half the people in the you listen to half the people in the you listen to half the people in the United States, you'd think the world's United States, you'd think the world's United States, you'd think the world's coming to an end, but historically, I coming to an end, but historically, I coming to an end, but historically, I mean, what's happening in the United mean, what's happening in the United mean, what's happening in the United States and Canada is remarkable. It's States and Canada is remarkable. It's States and Canada is remarkable. It's safer than it's ever been even though safer than it's ever been even though safer than it's ever been even though people don't acknowledge that. But people don't acknowledge that. But people don't acknowledge that. But because we know everything about because we know everything about because we know everything about everybody, every story of tragedy gets everybody, every story of tragedy gets everybody, every story of tragedy gets escalated and we think, "Oh, it's escalated and we think, "Oh, it's escalated and we think, "Oh, it's happening all the time everywhere." Mhm. happening all the time everywhere." Mhm. happening all the time everywhere." Mhm. Not true. So, the the the negative Not true. So, the the the negative Not true. So, the the the negative narrative is way exaggerated. Okay, narrative is way exaggerated. Okay, narrative is way exaggerated. Okay, that's one thing. And that that's you that's one thing. And that that's you that's one thing. And that that's you can that's easy to document. So, I'm not can that's easy to document. So, I'm not can that's easy to document. So, I'm not worried about that. And I don't think worried about that. And I don't think worried about that. And I don't think historically what has happened to historically what has happened to historically what has happened to empires empires empires happens anymore because again, we're happens anymore because again, we're happens anymore because again, we're still a and the still a and the still a and the what what what I'm just I got to summarize this so I I'm just I got to summarize this so I I'm just I got to summarize this so I don't go too long.

don't go too long. don't go too long. The cry of the human heart is for The cry of the human heart is for The cry of the human heart is for freedom, period. Period, it's freedom. I freedom, period. Period, it's freedom. I freedom, period. Period, it's freedom. I want to be free and I want to be in an want to be free and I want to be in an want to be free and I want to be in an environment where I have maximum freedom environment where I have maximum freedom environment where I have maximum freedom and I'm willing to govern my freedom so and I'm willing to govern my freedom so and I'm willing to govern my freedom so as not to impose on your freedom. And as not to impose on your freedom. And as not to impose on your freedom. And any system of government that does the any system of government that does the any system of government that does the work of maximizing individual freedom work of maximizing individual freedom work of maximizing individual freedom and guarding the individual freedom so and guarding the individual freedom so and guarding the individual freedom so that when our freedoms bump into each that when our freedoms bump into each that when our freedoms bump into each other, there's somebody to set up other, there's somebody to set up other, there's somebody to set up guardrails so we don't just destroy each guardrails so we don't just destroy each guardrails so we don't just destroy each other. other. other. That is the evolution of the world That is the evolution of the world That is the evolution of the world politically politically politically and economically. And again, there's and economically. And again, there's and economically. And again, there's some holdouts. I mean, China's bit of a some holdouts. I mean, China's bit of a some holdouts. I mean, China's bit of a holdout. Obviously, North Korea is like holdout. Obviously, North Korea is like holdout. Obviously, North Korea is like a major holdout. Iran, a major holdout. a major holdout. Iran, a major holdout. a major holdout. Iran, a major holdout. But But But you know, Martin Luther King Jr. gets you know, Martin Luther King Jr. gets you know, Martin Luther King Jr. gets credit for this for the quote. I don't credit for this for the quote. I don't credit for this for the quote. I don't know who originally said it and I'm know who originally said it and I'm know who originally said it and I'm going to butcher it, but you know, the going to butcher it, but you know, the going to butcher it, but you know, the the arc of history or the the what What the arc of history or the the what What the arc of history or the the what What was the quote? was the quote? was the quote? bends toward justice. bends toward justice. bends toward justice. Bends toward justice. When I'm not Bends toward justice. When I'm not Bends toward justice. When I'm not trying to think of it, I can usually trying to think of it, I can usually trying to think of it, I can usually quote it. Yeah, the arc of history bends quote it. Yeah, the arc of history bends quote it. Yeah, the arc of history bends toward justice. And And that is true of toward justice. And And that is true of toward justice. And And that is true of the human heart as well. And that is the the human heart as well. And that is the the human heart as well. And that is the gospel. When Jesus made the statement, gospel. When Jesus made the statement, gospel. When Jesus made the statement, you shall know the truth and the truth you shall know the truth and the truth you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free, it is such a shall make you free, it is such a shall make you free, it is such a gigantic statement. But truth requires gigantic statement. But truth requires gigantic statement. But truth requires clarity. Mhm. And anything that fogs my clarity. Mhm. And anything that fogs my clarity. Mhm. And anything that fogs my vision vision vision robs me of truth, which robs me of robs me of truth, which robs me of robs me of truth, which robs me of freedom. And this is the other brilliant freedom. And this is the other brilliant freedom. And this is the other brilliant thing Jesus said in this regard. This is thing Jesus said in this regard. This is thing Jesus said in this regard. This is why he said, "Okay, why he said, "Okay, why he said, "Okay, and he would say, "Democrats, and he would say, "Democrats, and he would say, "Democrats, Republicans, timeout. Before you attempt

Republicans, timeout. Before you attempt Republicans, timeout. Before you attempt to take the speck to take the speck to take the speck out of your brother and political out of your brother and political out of your brother and political opponent's eye, first don't leave me opponent's eye, first don't leave me opponent's eye, first don't leave me here." For those of you know who this here." For those of you know who this here." For those of you know who this know this what he says next. He says, know this what he says next. He says, know this what he says next. He says, "First take the log out of your own "First take the log out of your own "First take the log out of your own eye." And that's where we generally eye." And that's where we generally eye." And that's where we generally leave off with our memory. And then he leave off with our memory. And then he leave off with our memory. And then he says this, "Take the log out of your own says this, "Take the log out of your own says this, "Take the log out of your own eye so that you will see eye so that you will see eye so that you will see clearly clearly clearly to be able to remove the speck from your to be able to remove the speck from your to be able to remove the speck from your brother's eye." This is a 100% brother's eye." This is a 100% brother's eye." This is a 100% relational equation and it begins with relational equation and it begins with relational equation and it begins with we all look in the mirror to say, "I bet we all look in the mirror to say, "I bet we all look in the mirror to say, "I bet I'm wrong about something, but I don't I'm wrong about something, but I don't I'm wrong about something, but I don't know what it is. So, I'm going to get know what it is. So, I'm going to get know what it is. So, I'm going to get with a group of people that sees the with a group of people that sees the with a group of people that sees the world differently than me and we're world differently than me and we're world differently than me and we're going to learn from each other, we're going to learn from each other, we're going to learn from each other, we're going to solve this together." So, going to solve this together." So, going to solve this together." So, clarity clarity clarity allows us to recognize truth and truth allows us to recognize truth and truth allows us to recognize truth and truth sets us free. This is why the church sets us free. This is why the church sets us free. This is why the church should be be leading the charge into the should be be leading the charge into the should be be leading the charge into the middle ground where problems are middle ground where problems are middle ground where problems are actually solved and issues are actually actually solved and issues are actually actually solved and issues are actually resolved. We have the message, we have resolved. We have the message, we have resolved. We have the message, we have the messenger, we have the king who did the messenger, we have the king who did the messenger, we have the king who did it and visually did it on the cross it and visually did it on the cross it and visually did it on the cross where he took upon himself all of our where he took upon himself all of our where he took upon himself all of our misunderstanding and all of the lies misunderstanding and all of the lies misunderstanding and all of the lies we've believed and all the shrapnel of we've believed and all the shrapnel of we've believed and all the shrapnel of the sin and the debt we created between the sin and the debt we created between the sin and the debt we created between us and our heavenly father. Took all us and our heavenly father. Took all us and our heavenly father. Took all that upon himself, said, "Okay, I've that upon himself, said, "Okay, I've that upon himself, said, "Okay, I've cleared the decks. Now, cleared the decks. Now, cleared the decks. Now, let's move forward. Let's disagree let's move forward. Let's disagree let's move forward. Let's disagree politically, disagree culturally, politically, disagree culturally, politically, disagree culturally, disagree theologically, disagree theologically, disagree theologically, but your mandate is to love

but your mandate is to love but your mandate is to love unconditionally. It is and I'm promise unconditionally. It is and I'm promise unconditionally. It is and I'm promise I'll stop after this. It is not to be I'll stop after this. It is not to be I'll stop after this. It is not to be should not be lost on us that Jesus' should not be lost on us that Jesus' should not be lost on us that Jesus' final activity before he was arrested final activity before he was arrested final activity before he was arrested and went to the garden to pray and went to the garden to pray and went to the garden to pray was that he washed his disciples' feet. was that he washed his disciples' feet. was that he washed his disciples' feet. And it took him a long time and he said, And it took him a long time and he said, And it took him a long time and he said, "Now that I've done that for you, "Now that I've done that for you, "Now that I've done that for you, Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. you do that for each other, period. I you do that for each other, period. I you do that for each other, period. I don't care if you agree with each other don't care if you agree with each other don't care if you agree with each other or not, get along or not, ever come to or not, get along or not, ever come to or not, get along or not, ever come to the same conclusions about but you wash the same conclusions about but you wash the same conclusions about but you wash each other's feet. And you know what each other's feet. And you know what each other's feet. And you know what that does? that does? that does? Washing feet forces me to be close to Washing feet forces me to be close to Washing feet forces me to be close to you. And when I'm close to you, the you. And when I'm close to you, the you. And when I'm close to you, the temperature comes down and our temperature comes down and our temperature comes down and our relationship. So, we have all the tools, relationship. So, we have all the tools, relationship. So, we have all the tools, we have the model, we have a king, we have the model, we have a king, we have the model, we have a king, we should get this right. So. we should get this right. So. we should get this right. So. So, what I'm picking up as a theme in So, what I'm picking up as a theme in So, what I'm picking up as a theme in this series again as it's this series again as it's this series again as it's coming together is I think everybody so coming together is I think everybody so coming together is I think everybody so far would agree that clarity is far would agree that clarity is far would agree that clarity is kindness. And you know, I've heard you kindness. And you know, I've heard you kindness. And you know, I've heard you talk about clarity and that's one thing talk about clarity and that's one thing talk about clarity and that's one thing you are Andy is you are clear. Such a you are Andy is you are clear. Such a you are Andy is you are clear. Such a wordsmith. What should we be clear wordsmith. What should we be clear wordsmith. What should we be clear about? Like if you're preaching in the about? Like if you're preaching in the about? Like if you're preaching in the next couple of months heading into a next couple of months heading into a next couple of months heading into a very divided fall.

very divided fall. very divided fall. Mhm. Um Mhm. Um Mhm. Um what do you think we have the what do you think we have the what do you think we have the opportunity to be clear about? I mean, opportunity to be clear about? I mean, opportunity to be clear about? I mean, if you're picking a partisan side, if you're picking a partisan side, if you're picking a partisan side, that's clear. Vote this way. So easy. So that's clear. Vote this way. So easy. So that's clear. Vote this way. So easy. So easy. Easy peasy. Here's Here's who to easy. Easy peasy. Here's Here's who to easy. Easy peasy. Here's Here's who to hate. Here's who to vote for. Exactly. hate. Here's who to vote for. Exactly. hate. Here's who to vote for. Exactly. So that's one form of clarity. You're So that's one form of clarity. You're So that's one form of clarity. You're not advocating that. But sticking your not advocating that. But sticking your not advocating that. But sticking your head in the sand, a lot of people are head in the sand, a lot of people are head in the sand, a lot of people are I'm not going there and then people are I'm not going there and then people are I'm not going there and then people are like, where do we stand? It's like, not like, where do we stand? It's like, not like, where do we stand? It's like, not answering that question, you know. And answering that question, you know. And answering that question, you know. And and then you get into and then you get into and then you get into personal conversations where things personal conversations where things personal conversations where things become more nuanced, right? So from the become more nuanced, right? So from the become more nuanced, right? So from the front with a microphone, front with a microphone, front with a microphone, where should you or where could you be where should you or where could you be where should you or where could you be clear in a season like this? Well, clear in a season like this? Well, clear in a season like this? Well, so your audience knows, you sent me so your audience knows, you sent me so your audience knows, you sent me these questions ahead of time, which I these questions ahead of time, which I these questions ahead of time, which I appreciate cuz I don't appreciate cuz I don't appreciate cuz I don't of them are actually what I No, no, no, of them are actually what I No, no, no, of them are actually what I No, no, no, no. I think this this is great Carey. no. I think this this is great Carey. no. I think this this is great Carey. You know, we know each other. But I I'd You know, we know each other. But I I'd You know, we know each other. But I I'd I like to be prepared as you know. I'm I like to be prepared as you know. I'm I like to be prepared as you know. I'm just a stickler. So one of the questions just a stickler. So one of the questions just a stickler. So one of the questions cuz I want to read the way you wrote I cuz I want to read the way you wrote I cuz I want to read the way you wrote I mean the what you just asked is kind of mean the what you just asked is kind of mean the what you just asked is kind of a version of the question. And the a version of the question. And the a version of the question. And the question you wrote was Andy, what are question you wrote was Andy, what are question you wrote was Andy, what are you going to tell what are you going to you going to tell what are you going to you going to tell what are you going to say as the fall approaches and what's say as the fall approaches and what's say as the fall approaches and what's the alternative path? So as we get the alternative path? So as we get the alternative path? So as we get closer to November, Andy, what are you closer to November, Andy, what are you closer to November, Andy, what are you going to say? And I wrote in my notes, going to say? And I wrote in my notes, going to say? And I wrote in my notes, I don't know yet.

I don't know yet. I don't know yet. You're the only large church pastor You're the only large church pastor You're the only large church pastor who's told me that Andy. Well, who's told me that Andy. Well, who's told me that Andy. Well, again, I we're going to I'm going to again, I we're going to I'm going to again, I we're going to I'm going to address it. You know, I I sort of have address it. You know, I I sort of have address it. You know, I I sort of have this thematic message I do kind of this thematic message I do kind of this thematic message I do kind of different versions of that's called different versions of that's called different versions of that's called avoiding election infection, avoiding avoiding election infection, avoiding avoiding election infection, avoiding election infection. Because we get election infection. Because we get election infection. Because we get infected and then we you know, we don't infected and then we you know, we don't infected and then we you know, we don't love each other anymore. So I I I don't love each other anymore. So I I I don't love each other anymore. So I I I don't I don't know exactly what my message is I don't know exactly what my message is I don't know exactly what my message is going to be, but I guarantee it's going going to be, but I guarantee it's going going to be, but I guarantee it's going to come back to this. In fact, this to come back to this. In fact, this to come back to this. In fact, this Sunday I'm going to say talk about this Sunday I'm going to say talk about this Sunday I'm going to say talk about this is kind of a warm up as we get closer to is kind of a warm up as we get closer to is kind of a warm up as we get closer to fall. I tell our churches all the time, fall. I tell our churches all the time, fall. I tell our churches all the time, our diversity is our strength. Our our diversity is our strength. Our our diversity is our strength. Our racial diversity, our cultural racial diversity, our cultural racial diversity, our cultural diversity, our theological diversity, diversity, our theological diversity, diversity, our theological diversity, our lived experience diversity is our our lived experience diversity is our our lived experience diversity is our strength as a local church because we strength as a local church because we strength as a local church because we are to model what the kingdom of God are to model what the kingdom of God are to model what the kingdom of God looks like and it doesn't look just like looks like and it doesn't look just like looks like and it doesn't look just like me and it doesn't look just like you and me and it doesn't look just like you and me and it doesn't look just like you and it doesn't sound just like me. So our it doesn't sound just like me. So our it doesn't sound just like me. So our diversity, the fact that we don't agree diversity, the fact that we don't agree diversity, the fact that we don't agree politically, culturally, theologically, politically, culturally, theologically, politically, culturally, theologically, and yet we can love unconditionally. We and yet we can love unconditionally. We and yet we can love unconditionally. We are a picture. We are an advertisement are a picture. We are an advertisement are a picture. We are an advertisement of the kingdom of God when at the end of of the kingdom of God when at the end of of the kingdom of God when at the end of time, the new Jerusalem comes and the time, the new Jerusalem comes and the time, the new Jerusalem comes and the king comes. I love what John says, he king comes. I love what John says, he king comes. I love what John says, he comes to dwell with men. And remember, comes to dwell with men. And remember, comes to dwell with men. And remember, it's not the first time he dwelt with it's not the first time he dwelt with it's not the first time he dwelt with men. It's the second time. And the first men. It's the second time. And the first men. It's the second time. And the first time when he showed up, everybody was time when he showed up, everybody was time when he showed up, everybody was wrong about just about everything and he wrong about just about everything and he wrong about just about everything and he stuck around and launched his kingdom stuck around and launched his kingdom stuck around and launched his kingdom anyway. And we are to be the diverse anyway. And we are to be the diverse anyway. And we are to be the diverse people who have different lived

people who have different lived people who have different lived experiences, who come together around experiences, who come together around experiences, who come together around what Jesus taught because he is our what Jesus taught because he is our what Jesus taught because he is our king. So whatever I say in the fall, king. So whatever I say in the fall, king. So whatever I say in the fall, it's going to have it's going to be it's going to have it's going to be it's going to have it's going to be really close to just reminding our really close to just reminding our really close to just reminding our people of that. So people of that. So people of that. So When you look back on 2020, 2016, I mean When you look back on 2020, 2016, I mean When you look back on 2020, 2016, I mean you you you usually do a series and this you you you usually do a series and this you you you usually do a series and this goes back a long time. goes back a long time. goes back a long time. Um Um Um what did you get right about some of what did you get right about some of what did you get right about some of those past series and what would you say those past series and what would you say those past series and what would you say oops, stepped over a line, didn't oops, stepped over a line, didn't oops, stepped over a line, didn't realize it, wouldn't do that again? On realize it, wouldn't do that again? On realize it, wouldn't do that again? On this topic you mean? Yeah, on on this topic you mean? Yeah, on on this topic you mean? Yeah, on on politics or the culture wars or, you politics or the culture wars or, you politics or the culture wars or, you know, pick your topic. Um know, pick your topic. Um know, pick your topic. Um I I I don't know that there was any I I I don't know that there was any I I I don't know that there was any giant um giant um giant um mistake or anything I felt like, oh, I mistake or anything I felt like, oh, I mistake or anything I felt like, oh, I should have I would like to go back and should have I would like to go back and should have I would like to go back and redo that. But I'll tell you why. It's redo that. But I'll tell you why. It's redo that. But I'll tell you why. It's not cuz I'm smart. not cuz I'm smart. not cuz I'm smart. It's because 12 to 14 people have my It's because 12 to 14 people have my It's because 12 to 14 people have my sermon outlines at least 3 weeks before sermon outlines at least 3 weeks before sermon outlines at least 3 weeks before I preach them. Mhm. So if there are red I preach them. Mhm. So if there are red I preach them. Mhm. So if there are red flags in the outline, somebody or some flags in the outline, somebody or some flags in the outline, somebody or some somebodies brings it to my attention somebodies brings it to my attention somebodies brings it to my attention whether, hey Andy, this word doesn't whether, hey Andy, this word doesn't whether, hey Andy, this word doesn't mean what you think it does. It used to mean what you think it does. It used to mean what you think it does. It used to mean this, now it means that. Or I think mean this, now it means that. Or I think mean this, now it means that. Or I think this is too harsh. Or all your examples this is too harsh. Or all your examples this is too harsh. Or all your examples are about men. Or, you know, you've are about men. Or, you know, you've are about men. Or, you know, you've you've you've talked about this before.

you've you've talked about this before. you've you've talked about this before. Or I mean, so I invite feedback way Or I mean, so I invite feedback way Or I mean, so I invite feedback way before I strap on a microphone to before I strap on a microphone to before I strap on a microphone to preach. So that I think keeps me out of preach. So that I think keeps me out of preach. So that I think keeps me out of some of the ditches that I would have a some of the ditches that I would have a some of the ditches that I would have a tendency to go into when I let my tendency to go into when I let my tendency to go into when I let my emotion take over. And emotion take over. And emotion take over. And when I'm dealing with racial issues, I when I'm dealing with racial issues, I when I'm dealing with racial issues, I let a diversity I invite different let a diversity I invite different let a diversity I invite different people into that the the outline not people into that the the outline not people into that the the outline not outline process, but say, here's the outline process, but say, here's the outline process, but say, here's the outline, you know, if if you're sitting outline, you know, if if you're sitting outline, you know, if if you're sitting in the audience and you hear me say in the audience and you hear me say in the audience and you hear me say this, how's this going to land with you this, how's this going to land with you this, how's this going to land with you as a woman, as a Democrat, as a as a woman, as a Democrat, as a as a woman, as a Democrat, as a Republican or somebody of you know, Republican or somebody of you know, Republican or somebody of you know, different ethnic backgrounds. So um different ethnic backgrounds. So um different ethnic backgrounds. So um because this is a minefield. I mean this because this is a minefield. I mean this because this is a minefield. I mean this um the past two Sundays I preached to um the past two Sundays I preached to um the past two Sundays I preached to men. It was I did I had a Father's Day men. It was I did I had a Father's Day men. It was I did I had a Father's Day message that was too long, so I made it message that was too long, so I made it message that was too long, so I made it two messages. So part one and part two. two messages. So part one and part two. two messages. So part one and part two. We had Father's Day two Sundays in a We had Father's Day two Sundays in a We had Father's Day two Sundays in a row. row. row. But preparing a message for men in this But preparing a message for men in this But preparing a message for men in this culture, culture, culture, not like it used to be, right? But I not like it used to be, right? But I not like it used to be, right? But I thought we got to do it anyway. So I had thought we got to do it anyway. So I had thought we got to do it anyway. So I had a bunch of people look at it. I sat down a bunch of people look at it. I sat down a bunch of people look at it. I sat down with our youngest lead pastors, went with our youngest lead pastors, went with our youngest lead pastors, went through the whole outline, Father's Day through the whole outline, Father's Day through the whole outline, Father's Day outline, you know, how does this land?

outline, you know, how does this land? outline, you know, how does this land? Does this you know, I think this is Does this you know, I think this is Does this you know, I think this is impactful. What do you think? So um got impactful. What do you think? So um got impactful. What do you think? So um got to weigh in, can't sit back, got to love to weigh in, can't sit back, got to love to weigh in, can't sit back, got to love people. people. people. And again, I as I always say, I realize And again, I as I always say, I realize And again, I as I always say, I realize I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm older. I got a big big church. I'm older. I got a big big church. I'm older. I got a big big church. I we can lose hundreds of people and the I we can lose hundreds of people and the I we can lose hundreds of people and the world doesn't come to an end. So that's world doesn't come to an end. So that's world doesn't come to an end. So that's a very unique situation. So I can I feel a very unique situation. So I can I feel a very unique situation. So I can I feel the pain of so many pastors who are the pain of so many pastors who are the pain of so many pastors who are trying to get this right and just a few trying to get this right and just a few trying to get this right and just a few people from the wrong, you know, people from the wrong, you know, people from the wrong, you know, demographic that leaves it tanks the demographic that leaves it tanks the demographic that leaves it tanks the church or somebody marches off, starts a church or somebody marches off, starts a church or somebody marches off, starts a different church. I I I I understand the different church. I I I I understand the different church. I I I I understand the fear and I understand the concern. So fear and I understand the concern. So fear and I understand the concern. So can I can I read another answer I wrote can I can I read another answer I wrote can I can I read another answer I wrote down? down? down? 100%. 100%. 100%. And then we can I know we probably got And then we can I know we probably got And then we can I know we probably got to go, but the one of the the the to go, but the one of the the the to go, but the one of the the the question 19 was question 19 was question 19 was okay, back to where we started. You said okay, back to where we started. You said okay, back to where we started. You said I think a lot of pastors are afraid of I think a lot of pastors are afraid of I think a lot of pastors are afraid of afraid of their congregations. That is afraid of their congregations. That is afraid of their congregations. That is so true Carey. And you're you're a so true Carey. And you're you're a so true Carey. And you're you're a pastor, so you get that even though pastor, so you get that even though pastor, so you get that even though that's kind of hard to say. Uh-huh. And that's kind of hard to say. Uh-huh. And that's kind of hard to say. Uh-huh. And then you said um if they say anything, then you said um if they say anything, then you said um if they say anything, it'll be wrong. If they don't say it'll be wrong. If they don't say it'll be wrong. If they don't say anything, they're not being strong anything, they're not being strong anything, they're not being strong enough. And then you said, what would enough. And then you said, what would enough. And then you said, what would you say to pastors?

you say to pastors? you say to pastors? What would you say to pastors who are What would you say to pastors who are What would you say to pastors who are afraid right now? So here's what I wrote afraid right now? So here's what I wrote afraid right now? So here's what I wrote down. And I don't mean to be snarky or down. And I don't mean to be snarky or down. And I don't mean to be snarky or sarcastic. sarcastic. sarcastic. But this is the first thing that came to But this is the first thing that came to But this is the first thing that came to my mind when I think about pastors who my mind when I think about pastors who my mind when I think about pastors who are afraid of their congregations, okay? are afraid of their congregations, okay? are afraid of their congregations, okay? I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, pastor, if you've ever preached a pastor, if you've ever preached a pastor, if you've ever preached a message on Daniel, message on Daniel, message on Daniel, David and Goliath, or Shadrach, Meshach, David and Goliath, or Shadrach, Meshach, David and Goliath, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you need to pull out your and Abednego, you need to pull out your and Abednego, you need to pull out your notes and follow your own direction. notes and follow your own direction. notes and follow your own direction. Because we have all stood up in front of Because we have all stood up in front of Because we have all stood up in front of our churches and talked about courage our churches and talked about courage our churches and talked about courage and they trusted God and they went and they trusted God and they went and they trusted God and they went through the fire and they they stared through the fire and they they stared through the fire and they they stared down the lions and they stared down a down the lions and they stared down a down the lions and they stared down a Goliath and we're just telling these Goliath and we're just telling these Goliath and we're just telling these people, trust God, trust God, you know, people, trust God, trust God, you know, people, trust God, trust God, you know, fear not, fear not. fear not, fear not. fear not, fear not. It's our turn. It's our turn. It's our turn. It's our turn. This is our fire. This is It's our turn. This is our fire. This is It's our turn. This is our fire. This is our Goliath. our Goliath. our Goliath. These are our lions. These are our lions. These are our lions. Fear not. Let's model what we have Fear not. Let's model what we have Fear not. Let's model what we have preached and taught for years, not preached and taught for years, not preached and taught for years, not because it's easy, but because it's easy, but because it's easy, but when you put yourself in that vulnerable when you put yourself in that vulnerable when you put yourself in that vulnerable position, position, position, you have placed yourself in a position you have placed yourself in a position you have placed yourself in a position that maximizes that maximizes that maximizes God's opportunity to do something God's opportunity to do something God's opportunity to do something remarkable for you and through you. And remarkable for you and through you. And remarkable for you and through you. And do not miss that moment. And this do not miss that moment. And this do not miss that moment. And this cultural moment with these this cultural cultural moment with these this cultural cultural moment with these this cultural tension that we're leading through and tension that we're leading through and tension that we're leading through and preaching through preaching through preaching through may be your moment to discover something

may be your moment to discover something may be your moment to discover something about God, to discover something about about God, to discover something about about God, to discover something about God's faithfulness that you would never God's faithfulness that you would never God's faithfulness that you would never be able to learn any other way. So be able to learn any other way. So be able to learn any other way. So fear not. Not because I told you not to, fear not. Not because I told you not to, fear not. Not because I told you not to, but because our king fear not. He's with but because our king fear not. He's with but because our king fear not. He's with you. you. you. That's a great word. I also love this That's a great word. I also love this That's a great word. I also love this format. I will just send you the format. I will just send you the format. I will just send you the questions, you read them and then you questions, you read them and then you questions, you read them and then you answer them. That's a lot better than me answer them. That's a lot better than me answer them. That's a lot better than me coming up with spontaneous questions. coming up with spontaneous questions. coming up with spontaneous questions. No. Is there Is there a No, these are No. Is there Is there a No, these are No. Is there Is there a No, these are good questions. All seriousness, is good questions. All seriousness, is good questions. All seriousness, is there another question you wish we would there another question you wish we would there another question you wish we would tackle cuz I got one or two more. tackle cuz I got one or two more. tackle cuz I got one or two more. No, I think we've kind of Those were No, I think we've kind of Those were No, I think we've kind of Those were those were the stars. You talk about the those were the stars. You talk about the those were the stars. You talk about the faith of the next generation, that the faith of the next generation, that the faith of the next generation, that the next generation is at stake in this next generation is at stake in this next generation is at stake in this ideological, polarized, tribalized ideological, polarized, tribalized ideological, polarized, tribalized world, the more we play into that, the world, the more we play into that, the world, the more we play into that, the more, if I understand your argument more, if I understand your argument more, if I understand your argument correctly, we are at risk of losing the correctly, we are at risk of losing the correctly, we are at risk of losing the next generation. Talk into the Talk next generation. Talk into the Talk next generation. Talk into the Talk about that Andy. about that Andy. about that Andy. Um Um Um well, well, well, the the the the the the when I we we're talking about younger when I we we're talking about younger when I we we're talking about younger generation, let's I mean what's generation, let's I mean what's generation, let's I mean what's interesting we forget millennials are 40 interesting we forget millennials are 40 interesting we forget millennials are 40 now. Okay, they're not they're not 18 now. Okay, they're not they're not 18 now. Okay, they're not they're not 18 anymore. It's like, what when did that anymore. It's like, what when did that anymore. It's like, what when did that happen? They're I thought they were all happen? They're I thought they were all happen? They're I thought they were all 18. No, they're 40, right? They got 18. No, they're 40, right? They got 18. No, they're 40, right? They got kids.

kids. kids. I both have kids in our 30s. It's like, I both have kids in our 30s. It's like, I both have kids in our 30s. It's like, what what just happened? what what just happened? what what just happened? yes, exactly. So yes, exactly. So yes, exactly. So what we what we what we um unfortunately, what I think we're um unfortunately, what I think we're um unfortunately, what I think we're communicating at broad level if we're communicating at broad level if we're communicating at broad level if we're not careful to the next generation is not careful to the next generation is not careful to the next generation is this. this. this. They're going to be tempted to walk away They're going to be tempted to walk away They're going to be tempted to walk away from the church not because they don't from the church not because they don't from the church not because they don't believe what the church teaches. believe what the church teaches. believe what the church teaches. They're going to be tempted to walk away They're going to be tempted to walk away They're going to be tempted to walk away because they're convinced we don't because they're convinced we don't because they're convinced we don't believe what the church teaches. Because believe what the church teaches. Because believe what the church teaches. Because when I go all somebody goes if a when I go all somebody goes if a when I go all somebody goes if a Christian or pastor goes all in on a Christian or pastor goes all in on a Christian or pastor goes all in on a culture war issue, culture war issue, culture war issue, that younger generation realizes, "Wait that younger generation realizes, "Wait that younger generation realizes, "Wait a minute, I know people like that. I a minute, I know people like that. I a minute, I know people like that. I know people who've experienced that. I know people who've experienced that. I know people who've experienced that. I know people who are wrestling with that, know people who are wrestling with that, know people who are wrestling with that, and you've demonized them. You've said and you've demonized them. You've said and you've demonized them. You've said they're the enemy. You said that they're they're the enemy. You said that they're they're the enemy. You said that they're to be defeated and outvoted, and to be defeated and outvoted, and to be defeated and outvoted, and basically you just wish that that whole basically you just wish that that whole basically you just wish that that whole group of people would disappear. These group of people would disappear. These group of people would disappear. These are my friends, and I don't necessarily are my friends, and I don't necessarily are my friends, and I don't necessarily agree with them, either, but agree with them, either, but agree with them, either, but these aren't these aren't a category these aren't these aren't a category these aren't these aren't a category This isn't a category for me. These are This isn't a category for me. These are This isn't a category for me. These are actual people." So, if you are going to actual people." So, if you are going to actual people." So, if you are going to leverage the church and the power of leverage the church and the power of leverage the church and the power of church and the power of the pulpit in church and the power of the pulpit in church and the power of the pulpit in order to demonize a group of people that order to demonize a group of people that order to demonize a group of people that I actually love, and I know God loves, I actually love, and I know God loves, I actually love, and I know God loves, then I don't I'm not questioning my then I don't I'm not questioning my then I don't I'm not questioning my beliefs, beliefs, beliefs, I'm questioning the sincerity of your I'm questioning the sincerity of your I'm questioning the sincerity of your belief. And so, the whole deconstruction belief. And so, the whole deconstruction belief. And so, the whole deconstruction movement is a group of people, for the movement is a group of people, for the movement is a group of people, for the most part, who are like, "No, I still most part, who are like, "No, I still most part, who are like, "No, I still believe in God. I I I'm I just got to I believe in God. I I I'm I just got to I believe in God. I I I'm I just got to I just got to step back because I'm not

just got to step back because I'm not just got to step back because I'm not not sure my church leaders actually not sure my church leaders actually not sure my church leaders actually believe what I actually believe, that believe what I actually believe, that believe what I actually believe, that Jesus came to bring good news of great Jesus came to bring good news of great Jesus came to bring good news of great joy for all people. I'm not seeing much joy for all people. I'm not seeing much joy for all people. I'm not seeing much good news of great joy for all people at good news of great joy for all people at good news of great joy for all people at my church. So, you know, I I got to step my church. So, you know, I I got to step my church. So, you know, I I got to step back." So, the back." So, the back." So, the it's not it it it's you know, it kind of it's not it it it's you know, it kind of it's not it it it's you know, it kind of comes back to a little bit of our own comes back to a little bit of our own comes back to a little bit of our own hypocrisy in terms of church leaders and hypocrisy in terms of church leaders and hypocrisy in terms of church leaders and what we represent. And the moment a what we represent. And the moment a what we represent. And the moment a pastor goes all in for the Republicans pastor goes all in for the Republicans pastor goes all in for the Republicans or all in for the Democrats or begins to or all in for the Democrats or begins to or all in for the Democrats or begins to demonize a group of people, and by demonize a group of people, and by demonize a group of people, and by demonize they are the enemy. demonize they are the enemy. demonize they are the enemy. You have lost the plot line. It if As I You have lost the plot line. It if As I You have lost the plot line. It if As I tell leaders all the time, if you have tell leaders all the time, if you have tell leaders all the time, if you have to have an enemy in order to lead, you to have an enemy in order to lead, you to have an enemy in order to lead, you are a poor leader. That's why Jesus was are a poor leader. That's why Jesus was are a poor leader. That's why Jesus was the greatest leader. He said, "I don't the greatest leader. He said, "I don't the greatest leader. He said, "I don't make enemies, and when I find somebody make enemies, and when I find somebody make enemies, and when I find somebody who calls me an enemy, I don't return who calls me an enemy, I don't return who calls me an enemy, I don't return the favor. I'm going to figure out how the favor. I'm going to figure out how the favor. I'm going to figure out how to love my enemies." Think of this, to love my enemies." Think of this, to love my enemies." Think of this, Carey. Carey. Carey. From the cross, if we believe that the From the cross, if we believe that the From the cross, if we believe that the gospels are reliable accounts of actual gospels are reliable accounts of actual gospels are reliable accounts of actual events, which I do, events, which I do, events, which I do, from the cross, Jesus prays, "Father, from the cross, Jesus prays, "Father, from the cross, Jesus prays, "Father, forgive forgive forgive the people that put me here."

the people that put me here." the people that put me here." To the very end, I am not going to make To the very end, I am not going to make To the very end, I am not going to make them my enemies. And here's what's them my enemies. And here's what's them my enemies. And here's what's behind that. behind that. behind that. Father, forgive them Father, forgive them Father, forgive them for what they've done. They don't really for what they've done. They don't really for what they've done. They don't really know what they did because they don't know what they did because they don't know what they did because they don't have the truth. Consequently, they have the truth. Consequently, they have the truth. Consequently, they aren't free. And then he says to me, "Andy, follow And then he says to me, "Andy, follow me. me. me. And you adopt my tone, my approach. And you adopt my tone, my approach. And you adopt my tone, my approach. You adopt You adopt my posture. You adopt You adopt my posture. You adopt You adopt my posture. And it doesn't matter if it works. It And it doesn't matter if it works. It And it doesn't matter if it works. It doesn't matter if you can't if you doesn't matter if you can't if you doesn't matter if you can't if you measure progress or not because I'm your measure progress or not because I'm your measure progress or not because I'm your king." And I, you know, king." And I, you know, king." And I, you know, sitting here in a wonderful little sitting here in a wonderful little sitting here in a wonderful little studio with a microphone like I've got studio with a microphone like I've got studio with a microphone like I've got my act together. It's a, you know, of my act together. It's a, you know, of my act together. It's a, you know, of course not. It's a daily It's a daily course not. It's a daily It's a daily course not. It's a daily It's a daily struggle, but that's struggle, but that's struggle, but that's it's prescribed. I I again, I get to it's prescribed. I I again, I get to it's prescribed. I I again, I get to choose whether or not I follow Jesus, choose whether or not I follow Jesus, choose whether or not I follow Jesus, but once I decide to follow, I don't get but once I decide to follow, I don't get but once I decide to follow, I don't get to choose what it looks like. He's He to choose what it looks like. He's He to choose what it looks like. He's He made that clear. made that clear. made that clear. Andy, I'll tell you, I've loved this Andy, I'll tell you, I've loved this Andy, I'll tell you, I've loved this conversation so much, and we've had a conversation so much, and we've had a conversation so much, and we've had a bunch on this podcast, but one of the bunch on this podcast, but one of the bunch on this podcast, but one of the reasons I love it is I feel like we got reasons I love it is I feel like we got reasons I love it is I feel like we got a little bit of a behind the scenes.

a little bit of a behind the scenes. a little bit of a behind the scenes. Like, you know, you Like, you know, you Like, you know, you you meet with literally hundreds of you meet with literally hundreds of you meet with literally hundreds of people, probably in the last five or six people, probably in the last five or six people, probably in the last five or six years for all of the stuff. And a lot of years for all of the stuff. And a lot of years for all of the stuff. And a lot of a lot of listeners will know you through a lot of listeners will know you through a lot of listeners will know you through the headlines, through some of the the headlines, through some of the the headlines, through some of the people that love to criticize you, etc., people that love to criticize you, etc., people that love to criticize you, etc., etc. But one thing I know, because we've etc. But one thing I know, because we've etc. But one thing I know, because we've known each other for so long, is that known each other for so long, is that known each other for so long, is that there's a lot of behind the scenes that there's a lot of behind the scenes that there's a lot of behind the scenes that never make the headline, a lot of never make the headline, a lot of never make the headline, a lot of conversations that kind of go nowhere conversations that kind of go nowhere conversations that kind of go nowhere and they leave anyway, or, you know, and they leave anyway, or, you know, and they leave anyway, or, you know, like I still yelling at you through the like I still yelling at you through the like I still yelling at you through the headlines or whatever. But one of the headlines or whatever. But one of the headlines or whatever. But one of the things you told me, I've never mentioned things you told me, I've never mentioned things you told me, I've never mentioned this to you, it's not in the notes, this to you, it's not in the notes, this to you, it's not in the notes, is you said, it might have been an is you said, it might have been an is you said, it might have been an aside, you may not even remember it, but aside, you may not even remember it, but aside, you may not even remember it, but if you remember it, I think it could be if you remember it, I think it could be if you remember it, I think it could be helpful. You said, "Hey, I think you're helpful. You said, "Hey, I think you're helpful. You said, "Hey, I think you're just talking to a group of us one day." just talking to a group of us one day." just talking to a group of us one day." And you said, "You know, And you said, "You know, And you said, "You know, if it ever gets really big or your if it ever gets really big or your if it ever gets really big or your church becomes successful, don't take church becomes successful, don't take church becomes successful, don't take the weird pill." Do you remember that? the weird pill." Do you remember that? the weird pill." Do you remember that? He said, "Don't take the weird pill." He said, "Don't take the weird pill." He said, "Don't take the weird pill." Actually, it's something that another Actually, it's something that another Actually, it's something that another famous pastor said. He said, "Don't take famous pastor said. He said, "Don't take famous pastor said. He said, "Don't take the strange pill." That's the strange pill." That's the strange pill." That's Okay. Yeah. And then I've I've Okay. Yeah. And then I've I've Okay. Yeah. And then I've I've I've quoted that. You don't take the I've quoted that. You don't take the I've quoted that. You don't take the str- don't take the strange pill str- don't take the strange pill str- don't take the strange pill because, guys, because, guys, because, guys, I mean, you've seen it. They just I mean, you've seen it. They just I mean, you've seen it. They just I don't know what hap- It's always guys I don't know what hap- It's always guys I don't know what hap- It's always guys that just get weird. They just get that just get weird. They just get that just get weird. They just get strange.

strange. strange. they they have to have their their they they have to have their their they they have to have their their water at room temperature, you know, water at room temperature, you know, water at room temperature, you know, whatever. Yeah. What what And I'm whatever. Yeah. What what And I'm whatever. Yeah. What what And I'm wondering if there's a tie-in to these wondering if there's a tie-in to these wondering if there's a tie-in to these culture wars. It is bizarre what we find culture wars. It is bizarre what we find culture wars. It is bizarre what we find ourselves in, this tribalized ourselves in, this tribalized ourselves in, this tribalized ideological ideological ideological culture. culture. culture. You know, the weird thing is to live by You know, the weird thing is to live by You know, the weird thing is to live by the headlines. The weird thing, the the headlines. The weird thing, the the headlines. The weird thing, the strange thing is to just shoot barbs strange thing is to just shoot barbs strange thing is to just shoot barbs over social media, over X, over, you over social media, over X, over, you over social media, over X, over, you know, Facebook. Yeah. The hard thing, know, Facebook. Yeah. The hard thing, know, Facebook. Yeah. The hard thing, the humble thing, the difficult thing is the humble thing, the difficult thing is the humble thing, the difficult thing is to say, "Let's have coffee. Let's Let's to say, "Let's have coffee. Let's Let's to say, "Let's have coffee. Let's Let's chat. Can you jump on a phone call?" chat. Can you jump on a phone call?" chat. Can you jump on a phone call?" Um I've just learned so much from you. Um I've just learned so much from you. Um I've just learned so much from you. Any thoughts on that, like the strange Any thoughts on that, like the strange Any thoughts on that, like the strange pill as far as pill as far as pill as far as uh uh uh this moment we're in culturally? Um Um I I I I don't know. I mean, I I don't I just I don't know. I mean, I I don't I just I don't know. I mean, I I don't I just watch pastors I don't understand them watch pastors I don't understand them watch pastors I don't understand them sometimes what they do or why they do sometimes what they do or why they do sometimes what they do or why they do what they do. And I'm not I'm not what they do. And I'm not I'm not what they do. And I'm not I'm not talking about immoral, crazy stuff. I'm talking about immoral, crazy stuff. I'm talking about immoral, crazy stuff. I'm just talking about just talking about just talking about what? What But again, I'm but I'm older what? What But again, I'm but I'm older what? What But again, I'm but I'm older than a lot of them. I and I'm willing to than a lot of them. I and I'm willing to than a lot of them. I and I'm willing to chalk it up to personality, and and chalk it up to personality, and and chalk it up to personality, and and there's guys that are way more there's guys that are way more there's guys that are way more charismatic, just naturally than me, and charismatic, just naturally than me, and charismatic, just naturally than me, and more on fire, and all that. So, I I get more on fire, and all that. So, I I get more on fire, and all that. So, I I get different styles and stuff.

different styles and stuff. different styles and stuff. But you know, there's just some basic But you know, there's just some basic But you know, there's just some basic things, accountability and stuff, and things, accountability and stuff, and things, accountability and stuff, and staying healthy, and staying healthy, and staying healthy, and so, I don't know how I don't know really so, I don't know how I don't know really so, I don't know how I don't know really how to respond to that. how to respond to that. how to respond to that. your church. your church. your church. Well, there's that. Yeah, there's that. Well, there's that. Yeah, there's that. Well, there's that. Yeah, there's that. Being accessible. Being accessible. And Being accessible. Being accessible. And Being accessible. Being accessible. And being touchable, and being just sitting being touchable, and being just sitting being touchable, and being just sitting on the front row without people guarding on the front row without people guarding on the front row without people guarding you, and I don't know. And and And you, and I don't know. And and And you, and I don't know. And and And Carey, I'll tell you, again, I had a Carey, I'll tell you, again, I had a Carey, I'll tell you, again, I had a huge advantage, huge advantage. I grew huge advantage, huge advantage. I grew huge advantage, huge advantage. I grew up with a famous father who was a up with a famous father who was a up with a famous father who was a pastor. pastor. pastor. I mean, everywhere we went, every I mean, everywhere we went, every I mean, everywhere we went, every restaurant, every place, you know, it restaurant, every place, you know, it restaurant, every place, you know, it was I lived my life twice, really. I was I lived my life twice, really. I was I lived my life twice, really. I feel like I I really do. Um so, that's feel like I I really do. Um so, that's feel like I I really do. Um so, that's an advantage. It is because there's a I an advantage. It is because there's a I an advantage. It is because there's a I saw early on how important saw early on how important saw early on how important my dad was to people and what stopping my dad was to people and what stopping my dad was to people and what stopping and speaking to people because of the and speaking to people because of the and speaking to people because of the way they esteemed him and how much they way they esteemed him and how much they way they esteemed him and how much they learned from him. And I learned from him. And I learned from him. And I I And people in my I And people in my I And people in my you know, in my role or pastors in you know, in my role or pastors in you know, in my role or pastors in communities where they're somewhat communities where they're somewhat communities where they're somewhat well-known, well-known, well-known, your word, your pause, your eye to eye, your word, your pause, your eye to eye, your word, your pause, your eye to eye, your genuine concern, it is it is your genuine concern, it is it is your genuine concern, it is it is ministry. And um I think growing up and ministry. And um I think growing up and ministry. And um I think growing up and seeing that, it's it's more intuitive seeing that, it's it's more intuitive seeing that, it's it's more intuitive for me to appreciate the power of that, for me to appreciate the power of that, for me to appreciate the power of that, not in a manipulative way, but just the not in a manipulative way, but just the not in a manipulative way, but just the power of of presence and remembering a power of of presence and remembering a power of of presence and remembering a name, and um name, and um name, and um pausing to pray for people in Home pausing to pray for people in Home pausing to pray for people in Home Depot, and pray praying for the guy I Depot, and pray praying for the guy I Depot, and pray praying for the guy I prayed with at CVS. He's kind of pouring prayed with at CVS. He's kind of pouring prayed with at CVS. He's kind of pouring out his heart. I'm like, "Let's pray out his heart. I'm like, "Let's pray out his heart. I'm like, "Let's pray right now." Put my hand on his shoulder.

right now." Put my hand on his shoulder. right now." Put my hand on his shoulder. Right there at CVS. I I'm like, I used Right there at CVS. I I'm like, I used Right there at CVS. I I'm like, I used That kind of thing used to be like, "I'm That kind of thing used to be like, "I'm That kind of thing used to be like, "I'm not going to do that." You know what? not going to do that." You know what? not going to do that." You know what? You just got over it. It's like, "Hey, You just got over it. It's like, "Hey, You just got over it. It's like, "Hey, if if God's given me if if God's given me if if God's given me this opportunity or stewardship of this opportunity or stewardship of this opportunity or stewardship of influence, influence, influence, it's it's it's it's person to person. It's It's It's it's person to person. It's It's It's it's person to person. It's It's It's one-on-one. So, Mhm. one-on-one. So, Mhm. one-on-one. So, Mhm. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing a Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing a Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing a little bit about that. little bit about that. little bit about that. And uh thanks for humanizing and And uh thanks for humanizing and And uh thanks for humanizing and normalizing this bizarre cultural moment normalizing this bizarre cultural moment normalizing this bizarre cultural moment we're in. Yeah. we're in. Yeah. we're in. Yeah. Um thanks for having the conversation. Um thanks for having the conversation. Um thanks for having the conversation. Can I I don't know about time. You may Can I I don't know about time. You may Can I I don't know about time. You may cut this. Can I just Can I just want to cut this. Can I just Can I just want to cut this. Can I just Can I just want to I would like to read I would like to read I would like to read three verses of scripture that I I think three verses of scripture that I I think three verses of scripture that I I think I again, this is so simple and so on I again, this is so simple and so on I again, this is so simple and so on point. And this is the Apostle Paul, point. And this is the Apostle Paul, point. And this is the Apostle Paul, Philippians chapter two. Every pastor's Philippians chapter two. Every pastor's Philippians chapter two. Every pastor's preached it. Most Christians could quote preached it. Most Christians could quote preached it. Most Christians could quote some of this. some of this. some of this. But listen But listen But listen to these words. I mean, imagine if Jesus to these words. I mean, imagine if Jesus to these words. I mean, imagine if Jesus truly inspired Paul to write this, which truly inspired Paul to write this, which truly inspired Paul to write this, which we believe. And again, with Paul's we believe. And again, with Paul's we believe. And again, with Paul's experience having been I mean, what he experience having been I mean, what he experience having been I mean, what he went through, you know, can't imagine.

went through, you know, can't imagine. went through, you know, can't imagine. And he says this. Listen to this. And he says this. Listen to this. And he says this. Listen to this. Do nothing Do nothing Do nothing out of selfish ambition out of selfish ambition out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. or vain conceit. or vain conceit. Rather, Rather, Rather, in humility, here it is, value others in humility, here it is, value others in humility, here it is, value others above yourselves. above yourselves. above yourselves. What if we just did that? And then he What if we just did that? And then he What if we just did that? And then he says, and here it is. This is This will says, and here it is. This is This will says, and here it is. This is This will change your marriage. This will change change your marriage. This will change change your marriage. This will change This will change the country. This will This will change the country. This will This will change the country. This will change the temperature of our country. change the temperature of our country. change the temperature of our country. In your relationships with one another, In your relationships with one another, In your relationships with one another, talking Christian to Christian, talking Christian to Christian, talking Christian to Christian, in your relationship It doesn't qualify in your relationship It doesn't qualify in your relationship It doesn't qualify which relationships. In your which relationships. In your which relationships. In your relationships with one another, have the relationships with one another, have the relationships with one another, have the same mindset same mindset same mindset as Christ Jesus. as Christ Jesus. as Christ Jesus. Whose final activity with his disciples Whose final activity with his disciples Whose final activity with his disciples was he washed their was he washed their was he washed their feet. feet. feet. And then but Paul says it this way. Have And then but Paul says it this way. Have And then but Paul says it this way. Have you have the same mindset as Christ you have the same mindset as Christ you have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who Like, what is what is the Jesus, who Like, what is what is the Jesus, who Like, what is what is the same mindset? He goes, "I'm about to same mindset? He goes, "I'm about to same mindset? He goes, "I'm about to tell you."

tell you." tell you." Who being in very nature God, did not Who being in very nature God, did not Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to consider equality with God something to consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Jesus be used to his own advantage. Jesus be used to his own advantage. Jesus never leveraged who he was to benefit never leveraged who he was to benefit never leveraged who he was to benefit himself. That is amazing. It takes away himself. That is amazing. It takes away himself. That is amazing. It takes away all my excuses. It takes away all my all my excuses. It takes away all my all my excuses. It takes away all my right to demonize and criticize anybody, right to demonize and criticize anybody, right to demonize and criticize anybody, and it calls me to have to approach and it calls me to have to approach and it calls me to have to approach every relationship with the mindset of every relationship with the mindset of every relationship with the mindset of Christ Jesus, who came into this world Christ Jesus, who came into this world Christ Jesus, who came into this world where everybody had everything wrong and where everybody had everything wrong and where everybody had everything wrong and he invited us to follow. Carrie, imagine he invited us to follow. Carrie, imagine he invited us to follow. Carrie, imagine if that was the posture if that was the posture if that was the posture of the local church in America or of the local church in America or of the local church in America or Canada, everything Canada, everything Canada, everything would change. We don't need more would change. We don't need more would change. We don't need more information, we just need a heck of a information, we just need a heck of a information, we just need a heck of a lot more application. lot more application. lot more application. You know, I don't know about you, You know, I don't know about you, You know, I don't know about you, sometimes I read a text like that or sometimes I read a text like that or sometimes I read a text like that or Romans 12 I find particularly convicting Romans 12 I find particularly convicting Romans 12 I find particularly convicting once you get you know, past renewing once you get you know, past renewing once you get you know, past renewing your mind. I thought your mind. I thought your mind. I thought if I camped out on these 10 verses for if I camped out on these 10 verses for if I camped out on these 10 verses for the rest of my life, right? I would have the rest of my life, right? I would have the rest of my life, right? I would have stuff to do every single day. Every day stuff to do every single day. Every day stuff to do every single day. Every day I'm like, well, not there yet. Not that I'm like, well, not there yet. Not that I'm like, well, not there yet. Not that there yet. That's a beautiful place to there yet. That's a beautiful place to there yet. That's a beautiful place to stop and stop and stop and just Andy, I can't thank you enough. The just Andy, I can't thank you enough. The just Andy, I can't thank you enough. The book by the way came out a couple of book by the way came out a couple of book by the way came out a couple of years ago called not in it to win it.

years ago called not in it to win it. years ago called not in it to win it. Very Very Very applicable applicable applicable for today. for today. for today. Really, really applicable, helpful and Really, really applicable, helpful and Really, really applicable, helpful and you you've helped me rethink you you've helped me rethink you you've helped me rethink more issues more issues more issues and become clearer in my communication and become clearer in my communication and become clearer in my communication than anyone else and I just want to than anyone else and I just want to than anyone else and I just want to thank you so much Andy and thank you so much Andy and thank you so much Andy and Thanks for this conversation. It was Thanks for this conversation. It was Thanks for this conversation. It was very enlightening. very enlightening. very enlightening. Well, thanks for inviting me and I Well, thanks for inviting me and I Well, thanks for inviting me and I I look forward to hearing the whole I look forward to hearing the whole I look forward to hearing the whole series. I who you've lined up is is series. I who you've lined up is is series. I who you've lined up is is fantastic and to get to be a part of fantastic and to get to be a part of fantastic and to get to be a part of this I'm honored. So, thank you.