Why Teens Don't Trust the Church: Keys to Reaching Gen Z and Gen Alpha

all people are made in God's image and I all people are made in God's image and I think one of the ways that the church I I if I wanted to say that the church I I if I wanted to say it really strongly I would say the it really strongly I would say the it really strongly I would say the church is wasting human talent and you church is wasting human talent and you church is wasting human talent and you can tell I'm getting emotional about can tell I'm getting emotional about can tell I'm getting emotional about this me too me too one of the ways the this me too me too one of the ways the this me too me too one of the ways the church is if we want to say it strongly church is if we want to say it strongly church is if we want to say it strongly wasting human Talent is we are keeping wasting human Talent is we are keeping wasting human Talent is we are keeping women small um and women end up keeping women small um and women end up keeping women small um and women end up keeping themselves small themselves small themselves small and not being the size God's made them and not being the size God's made them and not being the size God's made them to be welcome to the K newoff leadership to be welcome to the K newoff leadership to be welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube we're so glad you podcast on YouTube we're so glad you podcast on YouTube we're so glad you joined us if you've ever wondered why joined us if you've ever wondered why joined us if you've ever wondered why teens and young adults don't trust the teens and young adults don't trust the teens and young adults don't trust the church and why young women are dropping church and why young women are dropping church and why young women are dropping out of church you've come to the right out of church you've come to the right out of church you've come to the right place Cara Powell the director of the place Cara Powell the director of the place Cara Powell the director of the Fuller youth Institute and author is Fuller youth Institute and author is Fuller youth Institute and author is with us on the podcast today if you're with us on the podcast today if you're with us on the podcast today if you're new here like subscribe leave a comment new here like subscribe leave a comment new here like subscribe leave a comment to join the conversation of course for to join the conversation of course for to join the conversation of course for those of you who are regular welcome those of you who are regular welcome those of you who are regular welcome back and please jump in now a word from back and please jump in now a word from back and please jump in now a word from today's carefully chosen partners and today's carefully chosen partners and today's carefully chosen partners and then we'll dive right into the then we'll dive right into the then we'll dive right into the conversation today's episode is brought conversation today's episode is brought conversation today's episode is brought to you by my preaching cheat sheet hey to you by my preaching cheat sheet hey to you by my preaching cheat sheet hey preachers I know how hard it can be to preachers I know how hard it can be to preachers I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons Fresh Plus you're keep your sermons Fresh Plus you're keep your sermons Fresh Plus you're doing it week after week after week to doing it week after week after week to doing it week after week after week to the same audience so whether you're the same audience so whether you're the same audience so whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a hitting writer's block or you're in a hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches rush trying to put the finishing touches rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon things don't always go as on your sermon things don't always go as on your sermon things don't always go as planned and then you have a whole lot of planned and then you have a whole lot of planned and then you have a whole lot of interventions during the week two so you interventions during the week two so you interventions during the week two so you don't get to your uh sermon time time don't get to your uh sermon time time don't get to your uh sermon time time the way you want so to help I've created the way you want so to help I've created the way you want so to help I've created a 10-step preaching cheat sheet after

a 10-step preaching cheat sheet after a 10-step preaching cheat sheet after Decades of preaching I've simplified my Decades of preaching I've simplified my Decades of preaching I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and sermon prep into a series of steps and sermon prep into a series of steps and also some reminders that help me ensure also some reminders that help me ensure also some reminders that help me ensure my sermons are engaging relevant and my sermons are engaging relevant and my sermons are engaging relevant and hopefully memorable super easy to use hopefully memorable super easy to use hopefully memorable super easy to use just 10 simple prompts with examples so just 10 simple prompts with examples so just 10 simple prompts with examples so you can start using it as quickly as you can start using it as quickly as you can start using it as quickly as today to get ready for this Sunday so today to get ready for this Sunday so today to get ready for this Sunday so start transforming your preaching visit start transforming your preaching visit start transforming your preaching visit preaching Che sheet.com get your copy preaching Che sheet.com get your copy preaching Che sheet.com get your copy for free again that's preaching cheat for free again that's preaching cheat for free again that's preaching cheat sheet.com to download your copy of the sheet.com to download your copy of the sheet.com to download your copy of the preaching cheat sheet absolutely free preaching cheat sheet absolutely free preaching cheat sheet absolutely free today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by Glue Easter is the most attended Sunday Glue Easter is the most attended Sunday Glue Easter is the most attended Sunday of the year for many churches and it's of the year for many churches and it's of the year for many churches and it's less than 3 weeks away so the question less than 3 weeks away so the question less than 3 weeks away so the question is are you ready to connect with every is are you ready to connect with every is are you ready to connect with every visitor who walks through your doors visitor who walks through your doors visitor who walks through your doors well if you don't have a plan in place well if you don't have a plan in place well if you don't have a plan in place you might miss the chance of following you might miss the chance of following you might miss the chance of following up with them and keeping them engaged up with them and keeping them engaged up with them and keeping them engaged after Easter but with glue messaging the after Easter but with glue messaging the after Easter but with glue messaging the Free Church texting tool you can make Free Church texting tool you can make Free Church texting tool you can make sure that nobody falls through the sure that nobody falls through the sure that nobody falls through the cracks here's what you can do you can cracks here's what you can do you can cracks here's what you can do you can welcome new visitors help them feel at welcome new visitors help them feel at welcome new visitors help them feel at home you can follow up after Easter to home you can follow up after Easter to home you can follow up after Easter to turn firsttime guests into regular turn firsttime guests into regular turn firsttime guests into regular attenders you can collect more prayer attenders you can collect more prayer attenders you can collect more prayer requests and support your community and requests and support your community and requests and support your community and you get to send over 10,000 free texts you get to send over 10,000 free texts you get to send over 10,000 free texts at absolutely no cost to you to get glue at absolutely no cost to you to get glue at absolutely no cost to you to get glue messaging set up today so you're ready messaging set up today so you're ready messaging set up today so you're ready to connect when it matters most sign up to connect when it matters most sign up to connect when it matters most sign up for free at glue. us/ Ming that's g. us/ for free at glue. us/ Ming that's g. us/ for free at glue. us/ Ming that's g. us/ messaging Cara welcome back it's good to

messaging Cara welcome back it's good to messaging Cara welcome back it's good to have you oh thanks Carrie I'm honored to have you oh thanks Carrie I'm honored to have you oh thanks Carrie I'm honored to be with you and your listeners and be with you and your listeners and be with you and your listeners and viewers so what's keeping you up at viewers so what's keeping you up at viewers so what's keeping you up at night these days when it comes to night these days when it comes to night these days when it comes to thinking about the future of the church thinking about the future of the church thinking about the future of the church yeah well when you ask about the future yeah well when you ask about the future yeah well when you ask about the future of the church the way that I'm wired and of the church the way that I'm wired and of the church the way that I'm wired and the passions God's given me I think the passions God's given me I think the passions God's given me I think immediately of young people um of course immediately of young people um of course immediately of young people um of course they're the present of the church and they're the present of the church and they're the present of the church and they're also the future of the church they're also the future of the church they're also the future of the church and I think I'm kept awake at night by and I think I'm kept awake at night by and I think I'm kept awake at night by something negative and something something negative and something something negative and something positive about young people so on the positive about young people so on the positive about young people so on the negative side young people um they're negative side young people um they're negative side young people um they're not trusting Us in the church you know not trusting Us in the church you know not trusting Us in the church you know According to some really fascinating According to some really fascinating According to some really fascinating research by spring tide uh young people research by spring tide uh young people research by spring tide uh young people 13 to 25 year olds are three times more 13 to 25 year olds are three times more 13 to 25 year olds are three times more likely to have been hurt by organized likely to have been hurt by organized likely to have been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion so religion as trust organized religion so religion as trust organized religion so um three times more um three times more um three times more to have been hurt hurt by organized to have been hurt hurt by organized to have been hurt hurt by organized religion than to trust organized religion than to trust organized religion than to trust organized religion wow yeah I'm I'm glad you had religion wow yeah I'm I'm glad you had religion wow yeah I'm I'm glad you had us pause and restate that because that's us pause and restate that because that's us pause and restate that because that's I just didn't want that to slide under I just didn't want that to slide under I just didn't want that to slide under that's pretty stunning data and we've that's pretty stunning data and we've that's pretty stunning data and we've earned young people's lack of trust earned young people's lack of trust earned young people's lack of trust sadly by our unkindness in the church by sadly by our unkindness in the church by sadly by our unkindness in the church by our moral failures by our hypocrisy so our moral failures by our hypocrisy so our moral failures by our hypocrisy so you know I think I'm kept up at night you know I think I'm kept up at night you know I think I'm kept up at night when I think about how young young when I think about how young young when I think about how young young people don't trust the church that's the people don't trust the church that's the people don't trust the church that's the negative side but on the positive side

negative side but on the positive side negative side but on the positive side I'm kept up at Night by the potential I'm kept up at Night by the potential I'm kept up at Night by the potential there is for us to build relationships there is for us to build relationships there is for us to build relationships with this generation of young people uh with this generation of young people uh with this generation of young people uh because there's additional data by because there's additional data by because there's additional data by spring tide that says that 70% of young spring tide that says that 70% of young spring tide that says that 70% of young people are saying they're not going to people are saying they're not going to people are saying they're not going to take relationships for granted so when take relationships for granted so when take relationships for granted so when it comes to the future of the church it comes to the future of the church it comes to the future of the church when caring trusted Jesus centered when caring trusted Jesus centered when caring trusted Jesus centered adults walk with young people I think adults walk with young people I think adults walk with young people I think there's no limit to how God can work in there's no limit to how God can work in there's no limit to how God can work in and through our faith community so so I and through our faith community so so I and through our faith community so so I I think this is a Divine window that I think this is a Divine window that I think this is a Divine window that thoughtful churches can build thoughtful churches can build thoughtful churches can build relationships with young people and relationships with young people and relationships with young people and secure a better future so can we go back secure a better future so can we go back secure a better future so can we go back to the sources of hurt yeah so you said to the sources of hurt yeah so you said to the sources of hurt yeah so you said 13 year olds 13 to 25 year olds 13 to 25 13 year olds 13 to 25 year olds 13 to 25 13 year olds 13 to 25 year olds 13 to 25 okay I'm like man if it's that bad at 13 okay I'm like man if it's that bad at 13 okay I'm like man if it's that bad at 13 what did we do but 13 to 25 years okay what did we do but 13 to 25 years okay what did we do but 13 to 25 years okay yeah so it starts young yeah you listed yeah so it starts young yeah you listed yeah so it starts young yeah you listed off some of the sources of that hurt can off some of the sources of that hurt can off some of the sources of that hurt can you explore that a little bit more you explore that a little bit more you explore that a little bit more because I think it's really good for us because I think it's really good for us because I think it's really good for us to be self-aware because we can blame to be self-aware because we can blame to be self-aware because we can blame our theology we can blame our our theology we can blame our our theology we can blame our ecclesiology but it's really hard to ecclesiology but it's really hard to ecclesiology but it's really hard to look in the mirror and say what am I look in the mirror and say what am I look in the mirror and say what am I doing to contribute to this problem yeah doing to contribute to this problem yeah doing to contribute to this problem yeah yeah well I think to answer that yeah well I think to answer that yeah well I think to answer that question I'd probably go to some really question I'd probably go to some really question I'd probably go to some really helpful research from the Bara group I helpful research from the Bara group I helpful research from the Bara group I know you and I are both good friends know you and I are both good friends know you and I are both good friends with the Barna team where they've with the Barna team where they've with the Barna team where they've actually parsed that out in terms of why

actually parsed that out in terms of why actually parsed that out in terms of why people in general are not trusting the people in general are not trusting the people in general are not trusting the church these days and I think this is so church these days and I think this is so church these days and I think this is so true for young people also and it is true for young people also and it is true for young people also and it is kind of the three things I rattled off kind of the three things I rattled off kind of the three things I rattled off really quickly um it's our really quickly um it's our really quickly um it's our unkindness that we're viewed is not very unkindness that we're viewed is not very unkindness that we're viewed is not very loving uh these days we're we we are not loving uh these days we're we we are not loving uh these days we're we we are not embodying the fruit of the spirit now embodying the fruit of the spirit now embodying the fruit of the spirit now the good news is this generation is the good news is this generation is the good news is this generation is really attracted to Jesus they see Jesus really attracted to Jesus they see Jesus really attracted to Jesus they see Jesus as kind and loving generous as kind and loving generous as kind and loving generous compassionate so like that's that's such compassionate so like that's that's such compassionate so like that's that's such important good news that this generation important good news that this generation important good news that this generation loves Jesus it's it's those of us who loves Jesus it's it's those of us who loves Jesus it's it's those of us who follow Jesus who they're not sure follow Jesus who they're not sure follow Jesus who they're not sure reflect who Jesus is so they see us as reflect who Jesus is so they see us as reflect who Jesus is so they see us as unkind they see all the moral unkind they see all the moral unkind they see all the moral failure um I mean even before we started failure um I mean even before we started failure um I mean even before we started recording Carrie Hugh and I were talking recording Carrie Hugh and I were talking recording Carrie Hugh and I were talking about that it's it's almost yeah exact about that it's it's almost yeah exact about that it's it's almost yeah exact heartbreaking it's hard to keep up with heartbreaking it's hard to keep up with heartbreaking it's hard to keep up with all the moral failure in the church and all the moral failure in the church and all the moral failure in the church and so that becomes overwhelming for young so that becomes overwhelming for young so that becomes overwhelming for young people and then just I'd say the general people and then just I'd say the general people and then just I'd say the general hypocrisy how they see the church and hypocrisy how they see the church and hypocrisy how they see the church and those of us who are Jesus followers those of us who are Jesus followers those of us who are Jesus followers saying one thing but our lies represent saying one thing but our lies represent saying one thing but our lies represent something else so as a result they're something else so as a result they're something else so as a result they're drifting and not trusting us so I want drifting and not trusting us so I want drifting and not trusting us so I want to play this out a little bit because to play this out a little bit because to play this out a little bit because I've shared the unkindness many times I've shared the unkindness many times I've shared the unkindness many times and I agree with it I'm not like and I agree with it I'm not like and I agree with it I'm not like disagreeing with you but what I hear disagreeing with you but what I hear disagreeing with you but what I hear [Music] [Music] [Music] from some types a certain type of Pastor

from some types a certain type of Pastor from some types a certain type of Pastor is well Jesus would Tru was truth and is well Jesus would Tru was truth and is well Jesus would Tru was truth and Grace and he overturned and he got angry Grace and he overturned and he got angry Grace and he overturned and he got angry and he you know was strong and he stood and he you know was strong and he stood and he you know was strong and he stood up what what do you make of that yeah up what what do you make of that yeah up what what do you make of that yeah yeah um well it's funny because I was yeah um well it's funny because I was yeah um well it's funny because I was just thinking about this uh this just thinking about this uh this just thinking about this uh this particular pair of attributes I Think particular pair of attributes I Think particular pair of attributes I Think Jesus was a person of Gent Jesus was a person of Gent Jesus was a person of Gent strength um and so there is that strength um and so there is that strength um and so there is that beautiful strength and I'll say beautiful strength and I'll say beautiful strength and I'll say prophetic confrontation about prophetic confrontation about prophetic confrontation about Sin but there's also the eyes of Sin but there's also the eyes of Sin but there's also the eyes of compassion and you know with the woman compassion and you know with the woman compassion and you know with the woman caught in adultery when Jesus says go caught in adultery when Jesus says go caught in adultery when Jesus says go and sin no more I don't think he's and sin no more I don't think he's and sin no more I don't think he's finger wagging go and sin no more I finger wagging go and sin no more I finger wagging go and sin no more I think he's empathizing and inviting her think he's empathizing and inviting her think he's empathizing and inviting her into a much better life uh and doing so into a much better life uh and doing so into a much better life uh and doing so kindly it's a oh go and sin no more go kindly it's a oh go and sin no more go kindly it's a oh go and sin no more go and sin no more my daughter who I love and sin no more my daughter who I love and sin no more my daughter who I love so much which I think that's that's the so much which I think that's that's the so much which I think that's that's the posture Jesus wants us to have with all posture Jesus wants us to have with all posture Jesus wants us to have with all people and unfortunately we end up people and unfortunately we end up people and unfortunately we end up feeling a little bit more on the finger feeling a little bit more on the finger feeling a little bit more on the finger Waggy perspective so yeah it's a fusion Waggy perspective so yeah it's a fusion Waggy perspective so yeah it's a fusion you know John one does such a beautiful you know John one does such a beautiful you know John one does such a beautiful job of fusing grace and truth that you job of fusing grace and truth that you job of fusing grace and truth that you know you don't have Grace without truth know you don't have Grace without truth know you don't have Grace without truth but you also don't have truth without but you also don't have truth without but you also don't have truth without Grace yeah that if you try to separate Grace yeah that if you try to separate Grace yeah that if you try to separate them you don't have either and I think them you don't have either and I think them you don't have either and I think because you know you can kind of because you know you can kind of because you know you can kind of separate that into the left and the separate that into the left and the separate that into the left and the right right the left is known as all right right the left is known as all right right the left is known as all Grace and nothing really matters and Grace and nothing really matters and Grace and nothing really matters and you're in Cara you're in you don't have

you're in Cara you're in you don't have you're in Cara you're in you don't have to do anything and the right is known as to do anything and the right is known as to do anything and the right is known as and you're going to hell and you know and you're going to hell and you know and you're going to hell and you know here's the truth and it's a blunt here's the truth and it's a blunt here's the truth and it's a blunt instrument uh but Jesus somehow neither instrument uh but Jesus somehow neither instrument uh but Jesus somehow neither of those caricatures seems to uh be of those caricatures seems to uh be of those caricatures seems to uh be represented in the fusion of grace and represented in the fusion of grace and represented in the fusion of grace and truth that John talks about yeah which truth that John talks about yeah which truth that John talks about yeah which again back to young people in the future again back to young people in the future again back to young people in the future of the church young people find that of the church young people find that of the church young people find that beautiful Fusion of Truth and Grace beautiful Fusion of Truth and Grace beautiful Fusion of Truth and Grace gentleness and strength really gentleness and strength really gentleness and strength really compelling like Jesus is compelling it's compelling like Jesus is compelling it's compelling like Jesus is compelling it's those of us who follow Jesus that are those of us who follow Jesus that are those of us who follow Jesus that are sometimes confusing to young people and sometimes confusing to young people and sometimes confusing to young people and so so well and so let's get more so so well and so let's get more so so well and so let's get more personal Carrie like I think this then personal Carrie like I think this then personal Carrie like I think this then becomes a question for each of us to ask becomes a question for each of us to ask becomes a question for each of us to ask folks who are close to us maybe even on folks who are close to us maybe even on folks who are close to us maybe even on our leadership teams when we think about our leadership teams when we think about our leadership teams when we think about this beautiful Synergy of Grace and this beautiful Synergy of Grace and this beautiful Synergy of Grace and Truth what are we emphas izing and what Truth what are we emphas izing and what Truth what are we emphas izing and what might we want to do to strengthen those might we want to do to strengthen those might we want to do to strengthen those other muscles so that's a great place to other muscles so that's a great place to other muscles so that's a great place to start when we think about learning and start when we think about learning and start when we think about learning and growing growing growing ourselves what is the hard truth that ourselves what is the hard truth that ourselves what is the hard truth that church leaders don't want to hear about church leaders don't want to hear about church leaders don't want to hear about young people in the future yeah uh I was young people in the future yeah uh I was young people in the future yeah uh I was just talking to our team about this this just talking to our team about this this just talking to our team about this this morning I think I think churches are in morning I think I think churches are in morning I think I think churches are in danger of going the route of danger of going the route of danger of going the route of Blockbuster um now follow me here for a Blockbuster um now follow me here for a Blockbuster um now follow me here for a minute you know a few decades ago minute you know a few decades ago minute you know a few decades ago Blockbuster dominated the industry for Blockbuster dominated the industry for Blockbuster dominated the industry for movie rentals through physical stores movie rentals through physical stores movie rentals through physical stores and you know you probably remember and you know you probably remember and you know you probably remember Carrie like I do and your listeners do

Carrie like I do and your listeners do Carrie like I do and your listeners do driving to a physical store and walking driving to a physical store and walking driving to a physical store and walking the aisles of Blockbuster looking for a the aisles of Blockbuster looking for a the aisles of Blockbuster looking for a video hoping I do remember that that video hoping I do remember that that video hoping I do remember that that that hard copy DVD would be in stock uh that hard copy DVD would be in stock uh that hard copy DVD would be in stock uh well there was this little upstart well there was this little upstart well there was this little upstart called Netflix that all of a sudden had called Netflix that all of a sudden had called Netflix that all of a sudden had a different model and you know a different model and you know a different model and you know Blockbuster had every advantage in terms Blockbuster had every advantage in terms Blockbuster had every advantage in terms of funding in terms of expansion and of funding in terms of expansion and of funding in terms of expansion and scale but Netflix had creativity and scale but Netflix had creativity and scale but Netflix had creativity and entrepreneurialism and fast forward to entrepreneurialism and fast forward to entrepreneurialism and fast forward to today you know there's literally just today you know there's literally just today you know there's literally just one store left of Blockbuster in Oregon one store left of Blockbuster in Oregon one store left of Blockbuster in Oregon there's one Blockbuster store whereas there's one Blockbuster store whereas there's one Blockbuster store whereas Netflix has come to be dominant because Netflix has come to be dominant because Netflix has come to be dominant because Netflix had an eye to the future is what Netflix had an eye to the future is what Netflix had an eye to the future is what I would say like they were living in the I would say like they were living in the I would say like they were living in the present present present but very mindful of the future and but very mindful of the future and but very mindful of the future and that's what we want to see churches be that's what we want to see churches be that's what we want to see churches be is be future Focus churches so they is be future Focus churches so they is be future Focus churches so they don't go the way of Blockbuster but they don't go the way of Blockbuster but they don't go the way of Blockbuster but they have the exciting future of a Netflix so have the exciting future of a Netflix so have the exciting future of a Netflix so I'm I'm I'm not going to pop the analogy I'm I'm I'm not going to pop the analogy I'm I'm I'm not going to pop the analogy but I want to put a pin in this because but I want to put a pin in this because but I want to put a pin in this because I'm going to invite him on the podcast I'm going to invite him on the podcast I'm going to invite him on the podcast but I was having uh dinner recently with but I was having uh dinner recently with but I was having uh dinner recently with the founder of Blockbuster and I asked the founder of Blockbuster and I asked the founder of Blockbuster and I asked him the question of why did we miss the him the question of why did we miss the him the question of why did we miss the digital Revolution U and there's a digital Revolution U and there's a digital Revolution U and there's a fascinating answer that would have fascinating answer that would have fascinating answer that would have Rewritten history but I'm going to put a Rewritten history but I'm going to put a Rewritten history but I'm going to put a pin in it yeah and I'm going to wait pin in it yeah and I'm going to wait pin in it yeah and I'm going to wait until he comes on the show tell back until he comes on the show tell back until he comes on the show tell back story but let's go with the classic story but let's go with the classic story but let's go with the classic Harvard case study that Blockbuster

Harvard case study that Blockbuster Harvard case study that Blockbuster missed the boat Netflix picked it up so missed the boat Netflix picked it up so missed the boat Netflix picked it up so uh with that caveat aside what um I want uh with that caveat aside what um I want uh with that caveat aside what um I want to know more what what are the to know more what what are the to know more what what are the Blockbuster moves that the church is Blockbuster moves that the church is Blockbuster moves that the church is going to do so to speak in that going to do so to speak in that going to do so to speak in that stereotype what are what are we doing stereotype what are what are we doing stereotype what are what are we doing right now that's going to sink us like right now that's going to sink us like right now that's going to sink us like the Titanic yeah so this is actually the the Titanic yeah so this is actually the the Titanic yeah so this is actually the subject of our new book that I have subject of our new book that I have subject of our new book that I have about with Jake Moulder and Ray Chang about with Jake Moulder and Ray Chang about with Jake Moulder and Ray Chang that's about and called future focused that's about and called future focused that's about and called future focused Church how do we be a church that is Church how do we be a church that is Church how do we be a church that is future focused and we Define that as a future focused and we Define that as a future focused and we Define that as a group of Jesus followers who seek God's group of Jesus followers who seek God's group of Jesus followers who seek God's Direction together and that's really Direction together and that's really Direction together and that's really important that that we are first and important that that we are first and important that that we are first and foremost we are about seeking God's foremost we are about seeking God's foremost we are about seeking God's Direction how do we embody that Grace Direction how do we embody that Grace Direction how do we embody that Grace and Truth in today's context but and Truth in today's context but and Truth in today's context but specifically as we look at uh both our specifically as we look at uh both our specifically as we look at uh both our culture as well as where churches seem culture as well as where churches seem culture as well as where churches seem to be struggling and growing we actually to be struggling and growing we actually to be struggling and growing we actually identify three checkpoints that we think identify three checkpoints that we think identify three checkpoints that we think are essential to be a church that's are essential to be a church that's are essential to be a church that's future focus and that is you're future focus and that is you're future focus and that is you're relationally discipling young people so relationally discipling young people so relationally discipling young people so you're investing in the Next Generation you're investing in the Next Generation you're investing in the Next Generation you're mindful of Kingdom diversity and you're mindful of Kingdom diversity and you're mindful of Kingdom diversity and the Beautiful diversity in your own the Beautiful diversity in your own the Beautiful diversity in your own community and then your tangibly loving community and then your tangibly loving community and then your tangibly loving uh your neighbors so those are the three uh your neighbors so those are the three uh your neighbors so those are the three things that we think are the Hallmark things that we think are the Hallmark things that we think are the Hallmark the primary Hallmarks of churches of the the primary Hallmarks of churches of the the primary Hallmarks of churches of the future there are certainly others that future there are certainly others that future there are certainly others that could be added to that list but when we could be added to that list but when we could be added to that list but when we distilled it it's about young people uh distilled it it's about young people uh distilled it it's about young people uh reflecting the diversity of our reflecting the diversity of our reflecting the diversity of our communities and then loving our

communities and then loving our communities and then loving our neighbors yeah so this is a repeated neighbors yeah so this is a repeated neighbors yeah so this is a repeated theme of your research this idea of theme of your research this idea of theme of your research this idea of collaboration yeah that young people collaboration yeah that young people collaboration yeah that young people need to be included not just hey sit in need to be included not just hey sit in need to be included not just hey sit in the back row look at how young we are the back row look at how young we are the back row look at how young we are but they need to be included Ed in but they need to be included Ed in but they need to be included Ed in leadership they need to be consulted leadership they need to be consulted leadership they need to be consulted they needed they need to be in the they needed they need to be in the they needed they need to be in the leadership equation you've talked in the leadership equation you've talked in the leadership equation you've talked in the past in in your research and on this past in in your research and on this past in in your research and on this show about handing them the keys yep how show about handing them the keys yep how show about handing them the keys yep how are we doing on that front and what does are we doing on that front and what does are we doing on that front and what does that mean yeah uh we're doing okay people are still buying the DVDs so okay people are still buying the DVDs so you know it's all right yeah yeah my you know it's all right yeah yeah my you know it's all right yeah yeah my store is busy yeah yeah you know I I store is busy yeah yeah you know I I store is busy yeah yeah you know I I think um you know the the answer that think um you know the the answer that think um you know the the answer that comes to mind when you ask that question comes to mind when you ask that question comes to mind when you ask that question Carrie is I think about what young Carrie is I think about what young Carrie is I think about what young people most need as we hand them the people most need as we hand them the people most need as we hand them the keys they need uh they need to be keys they need uh they need to be keys they need uh they need to be stretched and they need to be supported stretched and they need to be supported stretched and they need to be supported they need the challenge and they need they need the challenge and they need they need the challenge and they need that relational support so like I I'm I that relational support so like I I'm I that relational support so like I I'm I I think mathematically many ways so I I think mathematically many ways so I I think mathematically many ways so I actually think of like a 2 by two grid actually think of like a 2 by two grid actually think of like a 2 by two grid um you and and one quadrant and it's the um you and and one quadrant and it's the um you and and one quadrant and it's the quadrant that we'd want to be in is high quadrant that we'd want to be in is high quadrant that we'd want to be in is high support as well as high Challenge and support as well as high Challenge and support as well as high Challenge and that's I would say that's the that's I would say that's the that's I would say that's the theological sweet spot for churches theological sweet spot for churches theological sweet spot for churches where where we understand that young where where we understand that young where where we understand that young people are made in God's image and we people are made in God's image and we people are made in God's image and we aren't infantilizing them and aren't infantilizing them and aren't infantilizing them and underestimating who they are which I

underestimating who they are which I underestimating who they are which I think a lot of churches are prone to think a lot of churches are prone to think a lot of churches are prone to thinking that young people just need to thinking that young people just need to thinking that young people just need to be kind of entertained babysat kept off be kind of entertained babysat kept off be kind of entertained babysat kept off in the corner but at the same time we in the corner but at the same time we in the corner but at the same time we aren't forgetting that young people aren't forgetting that young people aren't forgetting that young people still need adult support so we're also still need adult support so we're also still need adult support so we're also not we're not infantilizing them but we not we're not infantilizing them but we not we're not infantilizing them but we also aren't kind of abandoning them or also aren't kind of abandoning them or also aren't kind of abandoning them or orphaning them but we're instead high in orphaning them but we're instead high in orphaning them but we're instead high in in both warm and challenge like that's in both warm and challenge like that's in both warm and challenge like that's that's the beautiful sweet spot for how that's the beautiful sweet spot for how that's the beautiful sweet spot for how we hand young people the keys yeah one we hand young people the keys yeah one we hand young people the keys yeah one of your books opens up with the story of of your books opens up with the story of of your books opens up with the story of a I think 13-year-old boy who goes in to a I think 13-year-old boy who goes in to a I think 13-year-old boy who goes in to ask a deep theological question of his ask a deep theological question of his ask a deep theological question of his Pastor kind of gets Pastor kind of gets Pastor kind of gets a sappy answer like kind of go away a sappy answer like kind of go away a sappy answer like kind of go away leave my leave my leave my study that young person was Steve Jobs study that young person was Steve Jobs study that young person was Steve Jobs absolutely right have I got that roughly absolutely right have I got that roughly absolutely right have I got that roughly right roughly right yeah right Steve right roughly right yeah right Steve right roughly right yeah right Steve asked a tough question about why would asked a tough question about why would asked a tough question about why would God allow uh starvation in Africa and 13 God allow uh starvation in Africa and 13 God allow uh starvation in Africa and 13 12y old Steve Jobs asked that question 12y old Steve Jobs asked that question 12y old Steve Jobs asked that question of a senior pastor and a senior pastor's of a senior pastor and a senior pastor's of a senior pastor and a senior pastor's answer was basically Steve we just need answer was basically Steve we just need answer was basically Steve we just need to trust God um and and it was it was a to trust God um and and it was it was a to trust God um and and it was it was a it wasn't an onramp into again that it wasn't an onramp into again that it wasn't an onramp into again that warmth and challenge quadrant it was warmth and challenge quadrant it was warmth and challenge quadrant it was instead a dead end and so Steve walked instead a dead end and so Steve walked instead a dead end and so Steve walked out of that church in the Bay Area in out of that church in the Bay Area in out of that church in the Bay Area in California walked out of that Christian California walked out of that Christian California walked out of that Christian church and never really again went back church and never really again went back church and never really again went back to a Christian church for worship so you to a Christian church for worship so you to a Christian church for worship so you know just imagine just imagine if that know just imagine just imagine if that know just imagine just imagine if that senior pastor had said to Steve wow

senior pastor had said to Steve wow senior pastor had said to Steve wow Steve that's a great question why don't Steve that's a great question why don't Steve that's a great question why don't you and I have coffee and let's get you and I have coffee and let's get you and I have coffee and let's get let's talk about that or Steve that's let's talk about that or Steve that's let's talk about that or Steve that's such a good question I'd love to involve such a good question I'd love to involve such a good question I'd love to involve this scientist in our church who she this scientist in our church who she this scientist in our church who she thinks about this all the time let's the thinks about this all the time let's the thinks about this all the time let's the three of us get together and talk about three of us get together and talk about three of us get together and talk about it like imagine how God could have it like imagine how God could have it like imagine how God could have captivated Steve Jobs and I think for captivated Steve Jobs and I think for captivated Steve Jobs and I think for all of us Carrie for you for me for all of us Carrie for you for me for all of us Carrie for you for me for everybody listening like there's a everybody listening like there's a everybody listening like there's a potential 12 or 13 year old steam jobs potential 12 or 13 year old steam jobs potential 12 or 13 year old steam jobs in our in our in our churches and how are we um how are we churches and how are we um how are we churches and how are we um how are we honoring their capabilities as well as honoring their capabilities as well as honoring their capabilities as well as really supporting them recognizing that really supporting them recognizing that really supporting them recognizing that they're not adults they're young people they're not adults they're young people they're not adults they're young people who need us to accompany them in life who need us to accompany them in life who need us to accompany them in life and faith no I think that's a very and faith no I think that's a very and faith no I think that's a very haunting story and I mean that haunting story and I mean that haunting story and I mean that personally for me as well because it is personally for me as well because it is personally for me as well because it is so easy when you're being inundated day so easy when you're being inundated day so easy when you're being inundated day and night with questions just kind of and night with questions just kind of and night with questions just kind of blow one off or give a pum answer yeah blow one off or give a pum answer yeah blow one off or give a pum answer yeah uh cuz it's a 12-year-old it's uh cuz it's a 12-year-old it's uh cuz it's a 12-year-old it's 13-year-old right and yet the reason I I 13-year-old right and yet the reason I I 13-year-old right and yet the reason I I wanted to talk about that story and and wanted to talk about that story and and wanted to talk about that story and and bring it to the front again Bring It bring it to the front again Bring It bring it to the front again Bring It Forward Forward Forward is you know the Barna data is you know the Barna data is you know the Barna data shows that the clergy are aging out shows that the clergy are aging out shows that the clergy are aging out right the the average age of clergy in right the the average age of clergy in right the the average age of clergy in the 9s was early 40s now it's mid to the 9s was early 40s now it's mid to the 9s was early 40s now it's mid to late late late 50s 50s 50s um we hang on to leadership a lot longer um we hang on to leadership a lot longer um we hang on to leadership a lot longer in the church yeah and I'm not into in the church yeah and I'm not into in the church yeah and I'm not into appointing 17y olds as Elders I don't appointing 17y olds as Elders I don't appointing 17y olds as Elders I don't think that's maybe wise but if you look

think that's maybe wise but if you look think that's maybe wise but if you look at business there are I mean Chick-fil-A at business there are I mean Chick-fil-A at business there are I mean Chick-fil-A runs on 17y olds yeah really and some runs on 17y olds yeah really and some runs on 17y olds yeah really and some managers yeah but they run on nextg managers yeah but they run on nextg managers yeah but they run on nextg talent in their thousands of restaurants talent in their thousands of restaurants talent in their thousands of restaurants and are CR in McDonald's and Wendy's and and are CR in McDonald's and Wendy's and and are CR in McDonald's and Wendy's and everybody else you look at a lot of everybody else you look at a lot of everybody else you look at a lot of startups you look at Mr Beast he's just startups you look at Mr Beast he's just startups you look at Mr Beast he's just turned 26 like come on and and in the turned 26 like come on and and in the turned 26 like come on and and in the church we we leave him on a bike with church we we leave him on a bike with church we we leave him on a bike with training wheels yeah what can you talk training wheels yeah what can you talk training wheels yeah what can you talk about that like are we missing something about that like are we missing something about that like are we missing something here because I feel like you know I'm here because I feel like you know I'm here because I feel like you know I'm definitely not in my 30s or 40s uh definitely not in my 30s or 40s uh definitely not in my 30s or 40s uh anymore 50s but people threw me the keys anymore 50s but people threw me the keys anymore 50s but people threw me the keys when I was 23 25 29 and they let me do when I was 23 25 29 and they let me do when I was 23 25 29 and they let me do recklessly stupid things in leadership recklessly stupid things in leadership recklessly stupid things in leadership when I was that year in the law firm when I was that year in the law firm when I was that year in the law firm they just threw me in court every day they just threw me in court every day they just threw me in court every day without without any training it's like without without any training it's like without without any training it's like you went to law school figure it out you went to law school figure it out you went to law school figure it out well you know what you figure it out you well you know what you figure it out you well you know what you figure it out you figure it out and I don't know that figure it out and I don't know that figure it out and I don't know that we're doing that with the Next we're doing that with the Next we're doing that with the Next Generation now yeah um one of my Generation now yeah um one of my Generation now yeah um one of my favorite stories that we tell in the favorite stories that we tell in the favorite stories that we tell in the book is about a senior pastor in the book is about a senior pastor in the book is about a senior pastor in the Pacific Northwest who he was really Pacific Northwest who he was really Pacific Northwest who he was really burdened by young adults so in addition burdened by young adults so in addition burdened by young adults so in addition to being a senior pastor he and his wife to being a senior pastor he and his wife to being a senior pastor he and his wife led the Young Adult Ministry because led the Young Adult Ministry because led the Young Adult Ministry because they just wanted to stay in touch with they just wanted to stay in touch with they just wanted to stay in touch with young people and he he used this young people and he he used this young people and he he used this question time and time again with young question time and time again with young question time and time again with young people what do you want to see God do people what do you want to see God do people what do you want to see God do through you wow isn't that good what do through you wow isn't that good what do through you wow isn't that good what do you want to see God do through you and you want to see God do through you and you want to see God do through you and you know for for your sons Carrie for my

you know for for your sons Carrie for my you know for for your sons Carrie for my kids for uh for just young people in kids for uh for just young people in kids for uh for just young people in general like when we ask that question general like when we ask that question general like when we ask that question what would you want to see God do what would you want to see God do what would you want to see God do through you and then figure out what through you and then figure out what through you and then figure out what role we can provide as adults in making role we can provide as adults in making role we can provide as adults in making those you know kind of initial Sparks of those you know kind of initial Sparks of those you know kind of initial Sparks of a dream of a vision uh become kind of a a dream of a vision uh become kind of a a dream of a vision uh become kind of a fire of impact like to me that's the fire of impact like to me that's the fire of impact like to me that's the sweet spot because we're starting with sweet spot because we're starting with sweet spot because we're starting with what young people are passionate about what young people are passionate about what young people are passionate about but then we're not making the mistake but then we're not making the mistake but then we're not making the mistake that you're describing of you know kind that you're describing of you know kind that you're describing of you know kind of leaders who just throw keys in a 22y of leaders who just throw keys in a 22y of leaders who just throw keys in a 22y old or a 17 year-old's Direction and not old or a 17 year-old's Direction and not old or a 17 year-old's Direction and not really Mentor them not debrief with them really Mentor them not debrief with them really Mentor them not debrief with them not get them the training that they need not get them the training that they need not get them the training that they need and so I would say start with a question and so I would say start with a question and so I would say start with a question listen to what your young people are listen to what your young people are listen to what your young people are passionate about and then figure out passionate about and then figure out passionate about and then figure out what support do they need from you and what support do they need from you and what support do they need from you and other adults in the church so that you other adults in the church so that you other adults in the church so that you know whether they're passionate about know whether they're passionate about know whether they're passionate about global sex trafficking or improving the global sex trafficking or improving the global sex trafficking or improving the local public schools in your community local public schools in your community local public schools in your community they can move forward but you are with they can move forward but you are with they can move forward but you are with them so what would you say to a senior them so what would you say to a senior them so what would you say to a senior pastor in his or her 50s or 60s who is I pastor in his or her 50s or 60s who is I pastor in his or her 50s or 60s who is I got very few NextGen here there's no got very few NextGen here there's no got very few NextGen here there's no obvious successor yeah Carrie's right obvious successor yeah Carrie's right obvious successor yeah Carrie's right I'm I'm in this probably a few years I'm I'm in this probably a few years I'm I'm in this probably a few years longer than I thought I would be but I longer than I thought I would be but I longer than I thought I would be but I got no one to put the keys to yeah where got no one to put the keys to yeah where got no one to put the keys to yeah where do they start yeah well here's the good do they start yeah well here's the good do they start yeah well here's the good news and I'm an optimist Carrie I know

news and I'm an optimist Carrie I know news and I'm an optimist Carrie I know you're an optimist too yeah so you know you're an optimist too yeah so you know you're an optimist too yeah so you know it's never too late for God to transform it's never too late for God to transform it's never too late for God to transform your church and I really believe just your church and I really believe just your church and I really believe just saying in a meeting this morning the saying in a meeting this morning the saying in a meeting this morning the best days of churches are ahead like I best days of churches are ahead like I best days of churches are ahead like I fully believe that why because of what fully believe that why because of what fully believe that why because of what we've seen when churches prioritize we've seen when churches prioritize we've seen when churches prioritize young people and so um so for that young people and so um so for that young people and so um so for that Pastor who's saying gosh I just don't Pastor who's saying gosh I just don't Pastor who's saying gosh I just don't have in a young people well how do you have in a young people well how do you have in a young people well how do you start building relationships with young start building relationships with young start building relationships with young people how do you go to where young people how do you go to where young people how do you go to where young people are listen to them instead of people are listen to them instead of people are listen to them instead of just expecting for them to come to you just expecting for them to come to you just expecting for them to come to you so so I think one of the biggest so so I think one of the biggest so so I think one of the biggest mistakes that churches make is they're mistakes that churches make is they're mistakes that churches make is they're not listening to young people and so we not listening to young people and so we not listening to young people and so we actually suggest this process that actually suggest this process that actually suggest this process that starts with listening to your young starts with listening to your young starts with listening to your young people listening to your community and people listening to your community and people listening to your community and if that means that you need to go out if that means that you need to go out if that means that you need to go out and meet some young people or others in and meet some young people or others in and meet some young people or others in your church need to do that or maybe you your church need to do that or maybe you your church need to do that or maybe you need to reach out to young people who' need to reach out to young people who' need to reach out to young people who' drifted from your church they were part drifted from your church they were part drifted from your church they were part of your churches 14 year olds or 24 year of your churches 14 year olds or 24 year of your churches 14 year olds or 24 year olds like that that's what we're seeing olds like that that's what we're seeing olds like that that's what we're seeing creative and courageous senior pastors creative and courageous senior pastors creative and courageous senior pastors do is to start by listening to actual do is to start by listening to actual do is to start by listening to actual young people well I think you you touch young people well I think you you touch young people well I think you you touch on an important point I think most on an important point I think most on an important point I think most churches are still in a come and sea churches are still in a come and sea churches are still in a come and sea yeah totally where where are you our yeah totally where where are you our yeah totally where where are you our doors are open like it's on you to come doors are open like it's on you to come doors are open like it's on you to come to us yeah you're saying go and do not

to us yeah you're saying go and do not to us yeah you're saying go and do not come and see so um practically speaking come and see so um practically speaking come and see so um practically speaking I mean a lot of churches depending on I mean a lot of churches depending on I mean a lot of churches depending on your state depending on your location your state depending on your location your state depending on your location you can't just walk into schools anymore you can't just walk into schools anymore you can't just walk into schools anymore right like you know without getting right like you know without getting right like you know without getting arrested so what do you what do you do arrested so what do you what do you do arrested so what do you what do you do like how would you do that yeah yeah like how would you do that yeah yeah like how would you do that yeah yeah well let me tell you what some actual well let me tell you what some actual well let me tell you what some actual churches have done like they think about churches have done like they think about churches have done like they think about what is the closest school and are there what is the closest school and are there what is the closest school and are there ways that we could volunteer in the ways that we could volunteer in the ways that we could volunteer in the school you know maybe we have somebody school you know maybe we have somebody school you know maybe we have somebody who's a real expert at basketball pass who's a real expert at basketball pass who's a real expert at basketball pass you know played basketball in college you know played basketball in college you know played basketball in college well that person could be a volunteer well that person could be a volunteer well that person could be a volunteer basketball coach and start to build basketball coach and start to build basketball coach and start to build relationships um other churches are relationships um other churches are relationships um other churches are reaching out to say Young Life Youth for reaching out to say Young Life Youth for reaching out to say Young Life Youth for Christ Fellowship of Christian athletes Christ Fellowship of Christian athletes Christ Fellowship of Christian athletes other Ministries in their neighborhoods other Ministries in their neighborhoods other Ministries in their neighborhoods that are building relationships and that are building relationships and that are building relationships and creating really Dynamic Partnerships and creating really Dynamic Partnerships and creating really Dynamic Partnerships and then you know I think the the lowest then you know I think the the lowest then you know I think the the lowest hanging fruit would probably be to start hanging fruit would probably be to start hanging fruit would probably be to start with young people who've already drifted with young people who've already drifted with young people who've already drifted from your church maybe you don't have from your church maybe you don't have from your church maybe you don't have any young people now you don't have any any young people now you don't have any any young people now you don't have any 17 year olds now because when they were 17 year olds now because when they were 17 year olds now because when they were 13 14 15 they didn't feel at home and so 13 14 15 they didn't feel at home and so 13 14 15 they didn't feel at home and so they've drifted like let's take they've drifted like let's take they've drifted like let's take those young people out for coffee and those young people out for coffee and those young people out for coffee and hear what they have to say about what hear what they have to say about what hear what they have to say about what they're wrestling with and then uh you they're wrestling with and then uh you they're wrestling with and then uh you know Carrie um I I think one of the know Carrie um I I think one of the know Carrie um I I think one of the things that has haunted me as a things that has haunted me as a things that has haunted me as a researcher on young people is what one researcher on young people is what one researcher on young people is what one 15-year-old said to us once um I'm tired 15-year-old said to us once um I'm tired 15-year-old said to us once um I'm tired of the church answering questions I'm of the church answering questions I'm of the church answering questions I'm not asking I'm tired of the church

not asking I'm tired of the church not asking I'm tired of the church answering questions I'm not asking and answering questions I'm not asking and answering questions I'm not asking and so as we listen to Young people's losses so as we listen to Young people's losses so as we listen to Young people's losses and longings like we come understand the and longings like we come understand the and longings like we come understand the questions that they're asking and then questions that they're asking and then questions that they're asking and then we can think about how our community can we can think about how our community can we can think about how our community can build relationships with young people build relationships with young people build relationships with young people and give them those answers what if a and give them those answers what if a and give them those answers what if a lead Pastor or senior leader does that lead Pastor or senior leader does that lead Pastor or senior leader does that they meet with young people they don't they meet with young people they don't they meet with young people they don't like what they're hearing they don't like what they're hearing they don't like what they're hearing they don't like what they're seeing you do that's a like what they're seeing you do that's a like what they're seeing you do that's a real thing can you say a little bit more real thing can you say a little bit more real thing can you say a little bit more about what they wouldn't like well they about what they wouldn't like well they about what they wouldn't like well they might not like the culture they might might not like the culture they might might not like the culture they might I'm I'm thinking about the wide variety I'm I'm thinking about the wide variety I'm I'm thinking about the wide variety of people who listen to this podcast of people who listen to this podcast of people who listen to this podcast which we have quite a spectrum yeah but which we have quite a spectrum yeah but which we have quite a spectrum yeah but it could be well they're tattooed or it could be well they're tattooed or it could be well they're tattooed or they're too fragile or um you know they they're too fragile or um you know they they're too fragile or um you know they have views on politics that I don't have views on politics that I don't have views on politics that I don't endorse either too far to the right or endorse either too far to the right or endorse either too far to the right or too far to the left or um you know I too far to the left or um you know I too far to the left or um you know I don't think they have a work ethic I don't think they have a work ethic I don't think they have a work ethic I don't think they hustle hard enough I I don't think they hustle hard enough I I don't think they hustle hard enough I I don't think they get it or uh you know don't think they get it or uh you know don't think they get it or uh you know they spent so much time online they they spent so much time online they they spent so much time online they don't even know what the gospel is those don't even know what the gospel is those don't even know what the gospel is those are like that's the kind of stuff you're are like that's the kind of stuff you're are like that's the kind of stuff you're going to get in the field you're not going to get in the field you're not going to get in the field you're not going to get perfectly formulated n going to get perfectly formulated n going to get perfectly formulated n write Junior theological answers yeah write Junior theological answers yeah write Junior theological answers yeah from 17-year-old so I mean what happens from 17-year-old so I mean what happens from 17-year-old so I mean what happens when you get out there and you're like I when you get out there and you're like I when you get out there and you're like I don't even understand this world like don't even understand this world like don't even understand this world like okay Kendrick Lamar at the Super Bowl okay Kendrick Lamar at the Super Bowl okay Kendrick Lamar at the Super Bowl all the memes about Gen X and Boomers all the memes about Gen X and Boomers all the memes about Gen X and Boomers who had like had no idea what Kendrick who had like had no idea what Kendrick who had like had no idea what Kendrick Lamar was about you're moving into that Lamar was about you're moving into that Lamar was about you're moving into that culture going I don't even get this yeah culture going I don't even get this yeah culture going I don't even get this yeah yeah so you know I I think about some of

yeah so you know I I think about some of yeah so you know I I think about some of the ways that God is currently moving uh the ways that God is currently moving uh the ways that God is currently moving uh in young people and I know you I've in young people and I know you I've in young people and I know you I've heard you talk about this on uh your pre heard you talk about this on uh your pre heard you talk about this on uh your pre on previous episodes of your podcast on previous episodes of your podcast on previous episodes of your podcast Carrie say with Jenny Allen and others Carrie say with Jenny Allen and others Carrie say with Jenny Allen and others when and how God is working on college when and how God is working on college when and how God is working on college campuses and I'm on the board for inner campuses and I'm on the board for inner campuses and I'm on the board for inner varsity and we're seeing this with inner varsity and we're seeing this with inner varsity and we're seeing this with inner Varsity too um it's fascinating on Varsity too um it's fascinating on Varsity too um it's fascinating on college campuses just looking at college campuses just looking at college campuses just looking at iniversity as an example it's iniversity iniversity as an example it's iniversity iniversity as an example it's iniversity is experiencing the greatest is experiencing the greatest is experiencing the greatest year-over-year growth this year than year-over-year growth this year than year-over-year growth this year than they have since 1980 so this is a they have since 1980 so this is a they have since 1980 so this is a historic high in 40 years one my historic high in 40 years one my historic high in 40 years one my favorite stories is uh a campus staff uh favorite stories is uh a campus staff uh favorite stories is uh a campus staff uh member who showed up at the first weekly member who showed up at the first weekly member who showed up at the first weekly Bible study at the start of this fall Bible study at the start of this fall Bible study at the start of this fall you know three or four months ago and you know three or four months ago and you know three or four months ago and she thought for sure she was in the she thought for sure she was in the she thought for sure she was in the wrong room because there were 120 wrong room because there were 120 wrong room because there were 120 college students who were at this first college students who were at this first college students who were at this first Bible study and last year there had been Bible study and last year there had been Bible study and last year there had been 20 college students and at here the 20 college students and at here the 20 college students and at here the first week like they just put up Flyers first week like they just put up Flyers first week like they just put up Flyers put it out on social media and there's put it out on social media and there's put it out on social media and there's 120 college students she was in the 120 college students she was in the 120 college students she was in the right room it was just this overflow of right room it was just this overflow of right room it was just this overflow of interest and I know crew seen it and interest and I know crew seen it and interest and I know crew seen it and other Ministries are seeing it on other Ministries are seeing it on other Ministries are seeing it on college campuses I think what young college campuses I think what young college campuses I think what young people are connecting with is in the people are connecting with is in the people are connecting with is in the midst of let's just look at mental midst of let's just look at mental midst of let's just look at mental health challenges as an example like health challenges as an example like health challenges as an example like they feel young people feel so um lonely they feel young people feel so um lonely they feel young people feel so um lonely depressed stressed like that's where the depressed stressed like that's where the depressed stressed like that's where the Peace of Jesus and a god of Grace who Peace of Jesus and a god of Grace who Peace of Jesus and a god of Grace who loves you not based on what you do but

loves you not based on what you do but loves you not based on what you do but just because of who you are and loves just because of who you are and loves just because of who you are and loves you unconditionally like that's what you unconditionally like that's what you unconditionally like that's what really connects so so what I would say really connects so so what I would say really connects so so what I would say is let's look past the tattoos and the is let's look past the tattoos and the is let's look past the tattoos and the time on technology and what folks are time on technology and what folks are time on technology and what folks are posting on social media and whether or posting on social media and whether or posting on social media and whether or not they like Kendrick Lamar and let's not they like Kendrick Lamar and let's not they like Kendrick Lamar and let's look at young people's core heart cries look at young people's core heart cries look at young people's core heart cries and that is what Jesus can meet and and that is what Jesus can meet and and that is what Jesus can meet and that's the future of the church well and that's the future of the church well and that's the future of the church well and there is that surf so to speak that there is that surf so to speak that there is that surf so to speak that surge of young adults who are interested surge of young adults who are interested surge of young adults who are interested in not just statistical it's anecdotal in not just statistical it's anecdotal in not just statistical it's anecdotal as well like it's happening in real life as well like it's happening in real life as well like it's happening in real life so maybe grab a surfboard and try to so maybe grab a surfboard and try to so maybe grab a surfboard and try to ride that wave totally totally yeah uh ride that wave totally totally yeah uh ride that wave totally totally yeah uh what is your re recent research showing what is your re recent research showing what is your re recent research showing that earlier research did not yeah well that earlier research did not yeah well that earlier research did not yeah well you know I've always been optimistic you know I've always been optimistic you know I've always been optimistic about the church I've always loved the about the church I've always loved the about the church I've always loved the church uh but what we did most recently church uh but what we did most recently church uh but what we did most recently is we really focused on how churches is we really focused on how churches is we really focused on how churches change for the future that's really the change for the future that's really the change for the future that's really the essence of uh our book future Focus essence of uh our book future Focus essence of uh our book future Focus Church and I have a lot of our research Church and I have a lot of our research Church and I have a lot of our research shows a lot of good news um it's not shows a lot of good news um it's not shows a lot of good news um it's not just about one incident it's not just just about one incident it's not just just about one incident it's not just about a single leader and you know you about a single leader and you know you about a single leader and you know you don't have to be a cool and hip Church don't have to be a cool and hip Church don't have to be a cool and hip Church to be a church of the future and by the to be a church of the future and by the to be a church of the future and by the way my own children who are 18 22 and 24 way my own children who are 18 22 and 24 way my own children who are 18 22 and 24 they say just the way that I say cool they say just the way that I say cool they say just the way that I say cool and hip reveals that I am not cool nor

and hip reveals that I am not cool nor and hip reveals that I am not cool nor hip so so I just I just got to hip so so I just I just got to hip so so I just I just got to acknowledge that but acknowledge that but acknowledge that but but any church any church can change for but any church any church can change for but any church any church can change for the future and experience God's best and the future and experience God's best and the future and experience God's best and and we know this from our research we and we know this from our research we and we know this from our research we spent time with small Chinese immigrant spent time with small Chinese immigrant spent time with small Chinese immigrant churches and large historic Mainline churches and large historic Mainline churches and large historic Mainline churches and church plants and I mean churches and church plants and I mean churches and church plants and I mean all different denominations and lack all different denominations and lack all different denominations and lack thereof all different sizes all thereof all different sizes all thereof all different sizes all different different different ethnicities and we saw that churches ethnicities and we saw that churches ethnicities and we saw that churches really can change for the future and really can change for the future and really can change for the future and what's interesting is is there's often a what's interesting is is there's often a what's interesting is is there's often a real common progression there's a common real common progression there's a common real common progression there's a common map that churches use to to be that map that churches use to to be that map that churches use to to be that group of of people seeking God's group of of people seeking God's group of of people seeking God's Direction when it comes to young people Direction when it comes to young people Direction when it comes to young people reflecting our community and loving our reflecting our community and loving our reflecting our community and loving our neighbor so there's a lot of diversity neighbor so there's a lot of diversity neighbor so there's a lot of diversity in the churches that are applying this in the churches that are applying this in the churches that are applying this fairly um common fairly um common fairly um common methodology you mentioned diversity a methodology you mentioned diversity a methodology you mentioned diversity a couple of times and you know diversity couple of times and you know diversity couple of times and you know diversity is one of those things that right now in is one of those things that right now in is one of those things that right now in this cultural moment seems to be under this cultural moment seems to be under this cultural moment seems to be under attack and yet you are saying that's attack and yet you are saying that's attack and yet you are saying that's something the Next Generation really something the Next Generation really something the Next Generation really values what what do you mean this values what what do you mean this values what what do you mean this episode is brought to you by The Chosen episode is brought to you by The Chosen episode is brought to you by The Chosen hey you probably have heard about the hey you probably have heard about the hey you probably have heard about the explosion of the chosen as a viewing explosion of the chosen as a viewing explosion of the chosen as a viewing choice not just for Christians but for choice not just for Christians but for choice not just for Christians but for so many other people and it tells the so many other people and it tells the so many other people and it tells the story of Jesus ministry Through The Eyes story of Jesus ministry Through The Eyes story of Jesus ministry Through The Eyes of people that know and follow him now of people that know and follow him now of people that know and follow him now maybe you didn't know the newest season

maybe you didn't know the newest season maybe you didn't know the newest season of The Chosen season five is back for of The Chosen season five is back for of The Chosen season five is back for Holy Week for a three-part theatrical Holy Week for a three-part theatrical Holy Week for a three-part theatrical release that's right in theaters called release that's right in theaters called release that's right in theaters called The Chosen Last Supper so here's the The Chosen Last Supper so here's the The Chosen Last Supper so here's the details it starts with people welcoming details it starts with people welcoming details it starts with people welcoming Jesus to Jerusalem as king expecting a Jesus to Jerusalem as king expecting a Jesus to Jerusalem as king expecting a revolution which most people did and revolution which most people did and revolution which most people did and there besides them is a group of leaders there besides them is a group of leaders there besides them is a group of leaders who will go to any length to ensure that who will go to any length to ensure that who will go to any length to ensure that this Passover meal is Jesus last The this Passover meal is Jesus last The this Passover meal is Jesus last The Chosen Last Supper is in theaters now Chosen Last Supper is in theaters now Chosen Last Supper is in theaters now it's a musty event for this Easter it's a musty event for this Easter it's a musty event for this Easter season so you can get your tickets for season so you can get your tickets for season so you can get your tickets for all three parts today at the chosen all three parts today at the chosen all three parts today at the chosen laser.com that's the chosen laser.com I laser.com that's the chosen laser.com I laser.com that's the chosen laser.com I for me I'll start with theology as I try for me I'll start with theology as I try for me I'll start with theology as I try to with most things and I think all to with most things and I think all to with most things and I think all people are created in God's image and as people are created in God's image and as people are created in God's image and as our president at Fuller David goatley our president at Fuller David goatley our president at Fuller David goatley says God's created a vibrant variety so says God's created a vibrant variety so says God's created a vibrant variety so the invitation for all of us is how can the invitation for all of us is how can the invitation for all of us is how can our churches reflect the vibrant variety our churches reflect the vibrant variety our churches reflect the vibrant variety of our communities so this is not about of our communities so this is not about of our communities so this is not about being woke or politically correct or any being woke or politically correct or any being woke or politically correct or any of that it's about saying we want to of that it's about saying we want to of that it's about saying we want to love and be good neighbors to the people love and be good neighbors to the people love and be good neighbors to the people who are around us so ideally our church who are around us so ideally our church who are around us so ideally our church would reflect the ethnicities and would reflect the ethnicities and would reflect the ethnicities and cultures of those who are around us um cultures of those who are around us um cultures of those who are around us um and you know young people experience and you know young people experience and you know young people experience that in every context they experience that in every context they experience that in every context they experience that at school they experience that at that at school they experience that at that at school they experience that at work they experience that on the soccer work they experience that on the soccer work they experience that on the soccer field and so they expect that same

field and so they expect that same field and so they expect that same diversity at church and when they show diversity at church and when they show diversity at church and when they show up a church and we don't reflect the up a church and we don't reflect the up a church and we don't reflect the diversity of our community then that's diversity of our community then that's diversity of our community then that's another way that we erode trust with another way that we erode trust with another way that we erode trust with young people so uh you know what's young people so uh you know what's young people so uh you know what's fascinating here in the US carrye I fascinating here in the US carrye I fascinating here in the US carrye I don't have Canada Dy data handy I should don't have Canada Dy data handy I should don't have Canada Dy data handy I should have knowing that I was talking to you have knowing that I was talking to you have knowing that I was talking to you most of our audience is American okay most of our audience is American okay most of our audience is American okay well there we go well in the US in 2020 well there we go well in the US in 2020 well there we go well in the US in 2020 in the midst of everything that happened in the midst of everything that happened in the midst of everything that happened in 2020 we crossed an important line in 2020 we crossed an important line in 2020 we crossed an important line where half of those under 18 in the US where half of those under 18 in the US where half of those under 18 in the US are young people of color yeah so the are young people of color yeah so the are young people of color yeah so the invitation to all of us and you know you invitation to all of us and you know you invitation to all of us and you know you don't have to force diversity you don't don't have to force diversity you don't don't have to force diversity you don't have to chase it for diversity sake but have to chase it for diversity sake but have to chase it for diversity sake but if we're loving our neighbors and uh and if we're loving our neighbors and uh and if we're loving our neighbors and uh and you know reaching out to young people you know reaching out to young people you know reaching out to young people then our churches are going to reflect then our churches are going to reflect then our churches are going to reflect our community so these three checkpoints our community so these three checkpoints our community so these three checkpoints of young people uh reflecting diversity of young people uh reflecting diversity of young people uh reflecting diversity and then loving our neighbor they're and then loving our neighbor they're and then loving our neighbor they're really all intertwined somebody once really all intertwined somebody once really all intertwined somebody once said and and yeah I mean over half of said and and yeah I mean over half of said and and yeah I mean over half of the next generation are people of color the next generation are people of color the next generation are people of color yeah but somebody once said I've heard yeah but somebody once said I've heard yeah but somebody once said I've heard this said more than once but when you this said more than once but when you this said more than once but when you walk into any room could be a grocery walk into any room could be a grocery walk into any room could be a grocery store it could be um a club it could be store it could be um a club it could be store it could be um a club it could be a school it could be a church it could a school it could be a church it could a school it could be a church it could be uh whatever you're doing the number be uh whatever you're doing the number be uh whatever you're doing the number one question people are asking could be one question people are asking could be one question people are asking could be a cocktail party who else like me is a cocktail party who else like me is a cocktail party who else like me is here Y is that like true that you're here Y is that like true that you're here Y is that like true that you're seeing the Next Generation or how would seeing the Next Generation or how would seeing the Next Generation or how would you vary or Nuance that yeah that's a

you vary or Nuance that yeah that's a you vary or Nuance that yeah that's a great question in fact we invite great question in fact we invite great question in fact we invite churches to take a a literal or just a churches to take a a literal or just a churches to take a a literal or just a mental snapshot of their church and mental snapshot of their church and mental snapshot of their church and compare it to their community and are compare it to their community and are compare it to their community and are they reflecting the ethnic the age the they reflecting the ethnic the age the they reflecting the ethnic the age the gender diversity in their Community gender diversity in their Community gender diversity in their Community because we we do have that human because we we do have that human because we we do have that human inclination to want to see ourselves and inclination to want to see ourselves and inclination to want to see ourselves and that's part of how we know that we'll that's part of how we know that we'll that's part of how we know that we'll fit if we see others like us who are fit if we see others like us who are fit if we see others like us who are already part then that just that just is already part then that just that just is already part then that just that just is a shortcut for us feeling like we belong a shortcut for us feeling like we belong a shortcut for us feeling like we belong and so um you know I I would encourage and so um you know I I would encourage and so um you know I I would encourage churches to try to understand the churches to try to understand the churches to try to understand the geographic community that they're in and geographic community that they're in and geographic community that they're in and then do a little audit how are how are then do a little audit how are how are then do a little audit how are how are we doing that reflecting our Geographic we doing that reflecting our Geographic we doing that reflecting our Geographic Community economically ethnically Community economically ethnically Community economically ethnically gender-wise Etc and then think about gender-wise Etc and then think about gender-wise Etc and then think about okay how do we be more intentional in okay how do we be more intentional in okay how do we be more intentional in building relationships in those areas building relationships in those areas building relationships in those areas that are underrepresented and how do we that are underrepresented and how do we that are underrepresented and how do we Elevate leadership from those areas that Elevate leadership from those areas that Elevate leadership from those areas that are underrepresented also what do you are underrepresented also what do you are underrepresented also what do you make of the Revival that's breaking out make of the Revival that's breaking out make of the Revival that's breaking out I would say In Pockets with Gen Z right I would say In Pockets with Gen Z right I would say In Pockets with Gen Z right now what's your take on that yeah well now what's your take on that yeah well now what's your take on that yeah well I'm super inspired by it as somebody who I'm super inspired by it as somebody who I'm super inspired by it as somebody who loves the Next Generation and you know loves the Next Generation and you know loves the Next Generation and you know Carrie I think you've said really Carrie I think you've said really Carrie I think you've said really accurately that we're seen both I think accurately that we're seen both I think accurately that we're seen both I think you say both Retreat and Revival or you say both Retreat and Revival or you say both Retreat and Revival or something like that are those the terms something like that are those the terms something like that are those the terms that you use yeah yeah it's sort of that that you use yeah yeah it's sort of that that you use yeah yeah it's sort of that that like yeah this stuff is real that like yeah this stuff is real that like yeah this stuff is real college campuses are packed um you know college campuses are packed um you know college campuses are packed um you know I I that was news to me about in Varity

I I that was news to me about in Varity I I that was news to me about in Varity you know from a dozen to 120 like that's you know from a dozen to 120 like that's you know from a dozen to 120 like that's cool I love it and yet The Meta Trends cool I love it and yet The Meta Trends cool I love it and yet The Meta Trends are there's 70 million gen Z and most of are there's 70 million gen Z and most of are there's 70 million gen Z and most of them the numbers are going down like them the numbers are going down like them the numbers are going down like they did with previous generations so we they did with previous generations so we they did with previous generations so we have this like paradoxical pocket of have this like paradoxical pocket of have this like paradoxical pocket of Revival but also on the broader sense Revival but also on the broader sense Revival but also on the broader sense maybe also still sadly a retreat from maybe also still sadly a retreat from maybe also still sadly a retreat from the church so I just want your take on the church so I just want your take on the church so I just want your take on that yeah you're ABS feel free to that yeah you're ABS feel free to that yeah you're ABS feel free to disagree no I I very much agree when I disagree no I I very much agree when I disagree no I I very much agree when I saw that you had written that uh some saw that you had written that uh some saw that you had written that uh some months ago thought oh that's very well months ago thought oh that's very well months ago thought oh that's very well said so so thank you for coining said so so thank you for coining said so so thank you for coining something that I want us to understand something that I want us to understand something that I want us to understand about the generations in general the about the generations in general the about the generations in general the research is showing both that you know research is showing both that you know research is showing both that you know kind of on mass young people are kind of on mass young people are kind of on mass young people are drifting less likely to go to church but drifting less likely to go to church but drifting less likely to go to church but there's again this spiritual hunger um there's again this spiritual hunger um there's again this spiritual hunger um this generation they've experienced the this generation they've experienced the this generation they've experienced the bad news of the pandemic of isolation of bad news of the pandemic of isolation of bad news of the pandemic of isolation of anxiety and depression you know I don't anxiety and depression you know I don't anxiety and depression you know I don't know a family with teenage girls that's know a family with teenage girls that's know a family with teenage girls that's not navigating mental health challenges not navigating mental health challenges not navigating mental health challenges I I can't name one the data tells me I I can't name one the data tells me I I can't name one the data tells me they exist but I can't name one and Dave they exist but I can't name one and Dave they exist but I can't name one and Dave and I we have teenage girls so like our and I we have teenage girls so like our and I we have teenage girls so like our family is navigating that too and family is navigating that too and family is navigating that too and teenage boys are just a half step behind teenage boys are just a half step behind teenage boys are just a half step behind uh young women when it comes to mental uh young women when it comes to mental uh young women when it comes to mental health and so you know there's these health and so you know there's these health and so you know there's these there's these pressing burdens and there's these pressing burdens and there's these pressing burdens and concerns that young people are feeling concerns that young people are feeling concerns that young people are feeling which when they see the authentic Jesus which when they see the authentic Jesus which when they see the authentic Jesus in authentic relationships and I would in authentic relationships and I would in authentic relationships and I would say both of those are really important

say both of those are really important say both of those are really important who Jesus really is the loving Jesus the who Jesus really is the loving Jesus the who Jesus really is the loving Jesus the generous Jesus the the uh truth but generous Jesus the the uh truth but generous Jesus the the uh truth but Grace fill Jesus that we were talking Grace fill Jesus that we were talking Grace fill Jesus that we were talking about earlier and when they're in about earlier and when they're in about earlier and when they're in authentic relationships with either authentic relationships with either authentic relationships with either peers or adults like they are drawn to peers or adults like they are drawn to peers or adults like they are drawn to to come and see even more of who Jesus to come and see even more of who Jesus to come and see even more of who Jesus is so so that's what those of us who is so so that's what those of us who is so so that's what those of us who love young people are saying like let's love young people are saying like let's love young people are saying like let's lean into relational discipleship lean into relational discipleship lean into relational discipleship radically focused on Jesus so you know radically focused on Jesus so you know radically focused on Jesus so you know you have the benefit of being a you have the benefit of being a you have the benefit of being a researcher but also a mom and you have researcher but also a mom and you have researcher but also a mom and you have daughters yeah and that means your daughters yeah and that means your daughters yeah and that means your daughters have friends so your house is daughters have friends so your house is daughters have friends so your house is probably quite full with teenage and probably quite full with teenage and probably quite full with teenage and college age girls I would ask you you college age girls I would ask you you college age girls I would ask you you know with your research has hat on maybe know with your research has hat on maybe know with your research has hat on maybe a little bit but more your mom hat what a little bit but more your mom hat what a little bit but more your mom hat what are the sources in your view that are are the sources in your view that are are the sources in your view that are feeding into that pervasive level of feeding into that pervasive level of feeding into that pervasive level of anxiety and depression and mental health anxiety and depression and mental health anxiety and depression and mental health issues yeah yeah nextg women yeah well issues yeah yeah nextg women yeah well issues yeah yeah nextg women yeah well you're you're right literally that we you're you're right literally that we you're you're right literally that we have young women around our house not have young women around our house not have young women around our house not only our two daughters but we right now only our two daughters but we right now only our two daughters but we right now have a 22-year-old uh fire displaced uh have a 22-year-old uh fire displaced uh have a 22-year-old uh fire displaced uh young woman who's living with us here in young woman who's living with us here in young woman who's living with us here in Los Angeles yeah so we're we're really Los Angeles yeah so we're we're really Los Angeles yeah so we're we're really glad to be able to offer a spare bedroom glad to be able to offer a spare bedroom glad to be able to offer a spare bedroom to her and have her be a bit of a part to her and have her be a bit of a part to her and have her be a bit of a part of our family in this season um well of our family in this season um well of our family in this season um well there's all sorts of factors that are there's all sorts of factors that are there's all sorts of factors that are why young people and especially young why young people and especially young why young people and especially young women are struggling with mental health women are struggling with mental health women are struggling with mental health it's hard to pinpoint just one um but

it's hard to pinpoint just one um but it's hard to pinpoint just one um but I'll I'll touch on a few technology is I'll I'll touch on a few technology is I'll I'll touch on a few technology is certainly part of this and joh johathan certainly part of this and joh johathan certainly part of this and joh johathan height yeah he's done such a good job in height yeah he's done such a good job in height yeah he's done such a good job in helping us all understand why this helping us all understand why this helping us all understand why this anxious generation to use the title of anxious generation to use the title of anxious generation to use the title of his book how closely tied that is to his book how closely tied that is to his book how closely tied that is to technology and you know the data is technology and you know the data is technology and you know the data is pretty undeniable the correlation pretty undeniable the correlation pretty undeniable the correlation between ubiquitous smartphones and between ubiquitous smartphones and between ubiquitous smartphones and mental health challenges is just really mental health challenges is just really mental health challenges is just really really strong so so I love technology really strong so so I love technology really strong so so I love technology I'm very Pro technology it's helping you I'm very Pro technology it's helping you I'm very Pro technology it's helping you and I have this conversation and people and I have this conversation and people and I have this conversation and people listen to it or watch it later but listen to it or watch it later but listen to it or watch it later but there's that technology and social media there's that technology and social media there's that technology and social media and everything we see that we're not and everything we see that we're not and everything we see that we're not part of that's happening without of part of that's happening without of part of that's happening without of without us that we're missing out on without us that we're missing out on without us that we're missing out on that is certainly a factor um but it's that is certainly a factor um but it's that is certainly a factor um but it's it's not just technology I think it's it's not just technology I think it's it's not just technology I think it's also the pace of Life Lisa deore who's a also the pace of Life Lisa deore who's a also the pace of Life Lisa deore who's a wonderful psychologist who's done some wonderful psychologist who's done some wonderful psychologist who's done some great work on mental health and she great work on mental health and she great work on mental health and she recommends that young people have 25 % recommends that young people have 25 % recommends that young people have 25 % of their awake hours UNS scheduled um of their awake hours UNS scheduled um of their awake hours UNS scheduled um that's rare for a young person to have that's rare for a young person to have that's rare for a young person to have that much time on scheduled teenagers that much time on scheduled teenagers that much time on scheduled teenagers and young adults are just moving from and young adults are just moving from and young adults are just moving from thing to thing so often and so so that's thing to thing so often and so so that's thing to thing so often and so so that's part of it they just don't have the part of it they just don't have the part of it they just don't have the downtime the play time that they need um downtime the play time that they need um downtime the play time that they need um I think there's also physiological I think there's also physiological I think there's also physiological reasons that young people are struggling reasons that young people are struggling reasons that young people are struggling with mental health and that's why it's with mental health and that's why it's with mental health and that's why it's so good that we have mental health so good that we have mental health so good that we have mental health professionals and therapists and professionals and therapists and professionals and therapists and psychiatrists who can help with the psychiatrists who can help with the psychiatrists who can help with the right interventions and maybe even the right interventions and maybe even the right interventions and maybe even the right medicine and then if I could just

right medicine and then if I could just right medicine and then if I could just point to one last thing um it's that we point to one last thing um it's that we point to one last thing um it's that we as adults we are not prioritizing young as adults we are not prioritizing young as adults we are not prioritizing young people and prioritizing relationship people and prioritizing relationship people and prioritizing relationship with them uh in a way that gives them with them uh in a way that gives them with them uh in a way that gives them the support that they need so young the support that they need so young the support that they need so young people end up feeling like they're um people end up feeling like they're um people end up feeling like they're um fending for themselves in this world fending for themselves in this world fending for themselves in this world instead of having the the warm support instead of having the the warm support instead of having the the warm support the scaffolding of adults as they're the scaffolding of adults as they're the scaffolding of adults as they're growing so those are three or four of growing so those are three or four of growing so those are three or four of the reasons that seem to be correlated the reasons that seem to be correlated the reasons that seem to be correlated with mental health challenges with mental health challenges with mental health challenges unstructured time yeah I had not unstructured time yeah I had not unstructured time yeah I had not connected the dots so you're a professor connected the dots so you're a professor connected the dots so you're a professor a a a researcher cuz I I I I look at my life researcher cuz I I I I look at my life researcher cuz I I I I look at my life and post burnout 19 years ago yeah I and post burnout 19 years ago yeah I and post burnout 19 years ago yeah I have moved to so I I would have moved to so I I would have moved to so I I would say three quarters of my life is say three quarters of my life is say three quarters of my life is unstructured maybe Cara maybe three unstructured maybe Cara maybe three unstructured maybe Cara maybe three quarters I I am you I wrote about this quarters I I am you I wrote about this quarters I I am you I wrote about this and at your best I limit my engagements and at your best I limit my engagements and at your best I limit my engagements to 15 per week yeah that includes to 15 per week yeah that includes to 15 per week yeah that includes haircuts podcast interviews meetings of haircuts podcast interviews meetings of haircuts podcast interviews meetings of any kind and that allows me to do the any kind and that allows me to do the any kind and that allows me to do the research and the writing and the other research and the writing and the other research and the writing and the other things that I do and we're also empty things that I do and we're also empty things that I do and we're also empty nesters for the last 10 years so I mean nesters for the last 10 years so I mean nesters for the last 10 years so I mean I get it when 15 years ago that wasn't I get it when 15 years ago that wasn't I get it when 15 years ago that wasn't true when we were hustling kids to true when we were hustling kids to true when we were hustling kids to sports Etc how much of your life is sports Etc how much of your life is sports Etc how much of your life is unstructured yeah good question you know unstructured yeah good question you know unstructured yeah good question you know when you said uh that's such a large when you said uh that's such a large when you said uh that's such a large percentage of your life was unstructured percentage of your life was unstructured percentage of your life was unstructured I immediately thought gosh I wonder what I immediately thought gosh I wonder what I immediately thought gosh I wonder what my answer is you know I would say I I'm

my answer is you know I would say I I'm my answer is you know I would say I I'm not as unstructured as you are I'm in not as unstructured as you are I'm in not as unstructured as you are I'm in quite a number of meetings yeah exactly quite a number of meetings yeah exactly quite a number of meetings yeah exactly my role here at Fuller uh comes with my role here at Fuller uh comes with my role here at Fuller uh comes with many many meetings I spent a lot of time many many meetings I spent a lot of time many many meetings I spent a lot of time on Zoom uh which I actually love as a on Zoom uh which I actually love as a on Zoom uh which I actually love as a way to connect with people um I would way to connect with people um I would way to connect with people um I would say I'm probably 30 35% say I'm probably 30 35% say I'm probably 30 35% unstructured and what's been especially unstructured and what's been especially unstructured and what's been especially gamechanging for me a few years ago gamechanging for me a few years ago gamechanging for me a few years ago Carrie is I became legalistic about a Carrie is I became legalistic about a Carrie is I became legalistic about a 24-hour 24-hour 24-hour Sabbath um and you know I had flirted Sabbath um and you know I had flirted Sabbath um and you know I had flirted with a half day Sabbath and uh you know with a half day Sabbath and uh you know with a half day Sabbath and uh you know breakfast to dinner Sabbath and uh all breakfast to dinner Sabbath and uh all breakfast to dinner Sabbath and uh all sorts of all sorts of Sabbath goals that sorts of all sorts of Sabbath goals that sorts of all sorts of Sabbath goals that fell short of 24 hours but now now I do fell short of 24 hours but now now I do fell short of 24 hours but now now I do a 24 hour Sabbath almost every week a 24 hour Sabbath almost every week a 24 hour Sabbath almost every week unless like unless there's just no way I unless like unless there's just no way I unless like unless there's just no way I can do it usually because of travel so can do it usually because of travel so can do it usually because of travel so nine out of 10 weeks I have a 24-hour nine out of 10 weeks I have a 24-hour nine out of 10 weeks I have a 24-hour Sabbath and oh my gosh it's the best Sabbath and oh my gosh it's the best Sabbath and oh my gosh it's the best thing for my mental health um it's a a thing for my mental health um it's a a thing for my mental health um it's a a time to spend more leisurely time time to spend more leisurely time time to spend more leisurely time praying I usually take a nap I usually praying I usually take a nap I usually praying I usually take a nap I usually am reading novels I get together with am reading novels I get together with am reading novels I get together with friends Dave and I might go out on a friends Dave and I might go out on a friends Dave and I might go out on a date night um I love Eugene Peterson date night um I love Eugene Peterson date night um I love Eugene Peterson Peterson's definition of Sabbath is a Peterson's definition of Sabbath is a Peterson's definition of Sabbath is a time to pray and play so there's some time to pray and play so there's some time to pray and play so there's some kind of spiritual Focus but then there's kind of spiritual Focus but then there's kind of spiritual Focus but then there's also just a holistic rejuvenation and so also just a holistic rejuvenation and so also just a holistic rejuvenation and so so for me a large chunk of my so for me a large chunk of my so for me a large chunk of my unstructured hours are this 24-hour

unstructured hours are this 24-hour unstructured hours are this 24-hour Sabbath which has been a lifeline and Sabbath which has been a lifeline and Sabbath which has been a lifeline and what do you do with your technology on what do you do with your technology on what do you do with your technology on your Sabbath oh good question so um I I your Sabbath oh good question so um I I your Sabbath oh good question so um I I am some people do a technology free am some people do a technology free am some people do a technology free Sabbath I don't do that I might still Sabbath I don't do that I might still Sabbath I don't do that I might still use my laptop for something um but I use my laptop for something um but I use my laptop for something um but I don't do work on it so like as an don't do work on it so like as an don't do work on it so like as an example I might need to book a hotel for example I might need to book a hotel for example I might need to book a hotel for our family so I'm on my laptop to plan a our family so I'm on my laptop to plan a our family so I'm on my laptop to plan a family trip but I'm not on my laptop for family trip but I'm not on my laptop for family trip but I'm not on my laptop for email or reviewing documents like I so email or reviewing documents like I so email or reviewing documents like I so it's recreational cool if it's uh work it's recreational cool if it's uh work it's recreational cool if it's uh work rated yeah we're looking for a new car rated yeah we're looking for a new car rated yeah we're looking for a new car right now for my wife so I may have right now for my wife so I may have right now for my wife so I may have spent hours on my Sabbath uh watching spent hours on my Sabbath uh watching spent hours on my Sabbath uh watching YouTube reviews and researching forums YouTube reviews and researching forums YouTube reviews and researching forums yeah yeah yeah totally but it's but it's yeah yeah yeah totally but it's but it's yeah yeah yeah totally but it's but it's not your day-to-day work so no not your day-to-day work so no not your day-to-day work so no no what do you think no what do you think no what do you think the potential is for your daughters to the potential is for your daughters to the potential is for your daughters to embrace more unstructured time in their embrace more unstructured time in their embrace more unstructured time in their lives and do you think that would have lives and do you think that would have lives and do you think that would have an impact yeah uh well I'm really an impact yeah uh well I'm really an impact yeah uh well I'm really grateful that our girls do know how to grateful that our girls do know how to grateful that our girls do know how to relax um and that doesn't mean phone in relax um and that doesn't mean phone in relax um and that doesn't mean phone in hand Doom scrolling right no no no I hand Doom scrolling right no no no I hand Doom scrolling right no no no I mean they they're both active on social mean they they're both active on social mean they they're both active on social media we have an 18-year-old and a 22y media we have an 18-year-old and a 22y media we have an 18-year-old and a 22y old but they value time with their old but they value time with their old but they value time with their friends they value uh they both really friends they value uh they both really friends they value uh they both really like to hike so they go on Hikes with like to hike so they go on Hikes with like to hike so they go on Hikes with their friends they watch movies with their friends they watch movies with their friends they watch movies with their friends their friends their friends um they'll watch shows on Netflix or um they'll watch shows on Netflix or um they'll watch shows on Netflix or Netflix or another streaming platform Netflix or another streaming platform Netflix or another streaming platform online they're both big readers so uh

online they're both big readers so uh online they're both big readers so uh and love the library and so right by my and love the library and so right by my and love the library and so right by my front door I've got one of my daughter's front door I've got one of my daughter's front door I've got one of my daughter's library books to return to our local library books to return to our local library books to return to our local public library so so I I'm actually public library so so I I'm actually public library so so I I'm actually really grateful that our girls um our really grateful that our girls um our really grateful that our girls um our girls are probably better at uh resting girls are probably better at uh resting girls are probably better at uh resting than I am that's why I really needed than I am that's why I really needed than I am that's why I really needed that Sal but that Jonathan height thing that Sal but that Jonathan height thing that Sal but that Jonathan height thing like out in nature going on Hikes uh you like out in nature going on Hikes uh you like out in nature going on Hikes uh you know that kind of thing is is a deal know that kind of thing is is a deal know that kind of thing is is a deal okay yeah well and I it's interesting okay yeah well and I it's interesting okay yeah well and I it's interesting because this last summer um our family because this last summer um our family because this last summer um our family took two trips one to KML which was took two trips one to KML which was took two trips one to KML which was wonderful we did scuba diving snorkeling wonderful we did scuba diving snorkeling wonderful we did scuba diving snorkeling but then we also went backpacking in uh but then we also went backpacking in uh but then we also went backpacking in uh the Sierra Nevada mountains here in the Sierra Nevada mountains here in the Sierra Nevada mountains here in California and I asked my kids after California and I asked my kids after California and I asked my kids after those trips like what did you like those trips like what did you like those trips like what did you like better CML or backpacking and all three better CML or backpacking and all three better CML or backpacking and all three of them our two girls and our 24 yearold of them our two girls and our 24 yearold of them our two girls and our 24 yearold son they said um we actually likeed the son they said um we actually likeed the son they said um we actually likeed the two trips the same and as I was two trips the same and as I was two trips the same and as I was reflecting about that in light of reflecting about that in light of reflecting about that in light of Jonathan Heights work I think one of the Jonathan Heights work I think one of the Jonathan Heights work I think one of the interesting things he talks about is the interesting things he talks about is the interesting things he talks about is the importance of risk taking for young importance of risk taking for young importance of risk taking for young people and that for our kids backpacking people and that for our kids backpacking people and that for our kids backpacking feels pretty risky you know we're not feels pretty risky you know we're not feels pretty risky you know we're not we're not like jumping off cliffs or we're not like jumping off cliffs or we're not like jumping off cliffs or anything but all we have is what we anything but all we have is what we anything but all we have is what we carry and we have to you know live for carry and we have to you know live for carry and we have to you know live for 70 to 100 hours based on what we're 70 to 100 hours based on what we're 70 to 100 hours based on what we're carrying and so for our kids I think carrying and so for our kids I think carrying and so for our kids I think that's an appealing risk-taking that that's an appealing risk-taking that that's an appealing risk-taking that often comes with unstructured time being often comes with unstructured time being often comes with unstructured time being outdoors being in new environment you outdoors being in new environment you outdoors being in new environment you know it's so funny with my kids now who know it's so funny with my kids now who know it's so funny with my kids now who are 33 and 29 we joke about in light of

are 33 and 29 we joke about in light of are 33 and 29 we joke about in light of the cultural dialogue our parenting the cultural dialogue our parenting the cultural dialogue our parenting style we live by a creek and the creek style we live by a creek and the creek style we live by a creek and the creek was kind of Swampy we just let the kids was kind of Swampy we just let the kids was kind of Swampy we just let the kids Freer range Rome and you know it was Freer range Rome and you know it was Freer range Rome and you know it was sort of pre-cell phone and we were sort of pre-cell phone and we were sort of pre-cell phone and we were hoping that they would get home for hoping that they would get home for hoping that they would get home for dinner but we honestly it's like that dinner but we honestly it's like that dinner but we honestly it's like that old ad from the'80s we didn't know where old ad from the'80s we didn't know where old ad from the'80s we didn't know where our kids were and they had to be home by our kids were and they had to be home by our kids were and they had to be home by dinner and once in a while we panic but dinner and once in a while we panic but dinner and once in a while we panic but they're like we figured so much out on they're like we figured so much out on they're like we figured so much out on our own and you know one guy yelled at our own and you know one guy yelled at our own and you know one guy yelled at us and threatened to call the police on us and threatened to call the police on us and threatened to call the police on us because we were too close to his us because we were too close to his us because we were too close to his property line and like we just maybe we property line and like we just maybe we property line and like we just maybe we were bad parents but maybe you know like were bad parents but maybe you know like were bad parents but maybe you know like uh they navigated life quite well uh they navigated life quite well uh they navigated life quite well through their 20s yeah yeah no I and I through their 20s yeah yeah no I and I through their 20s yeah yeah no I and I think a lot of times many of us and I'm think a lot of times many of us and I'm think a lot of times many of us and I'm saying us because I'm counting myself in saying us because I'm counting myself in saying us because I'm counting myself in this we were we were and are overly this we were we were and are overly this we were we were and are overly protective with our kids when they're protective with our kids when they're protective with our kids when they're young and they don't have that freedom young and they don't have that freedom young and they don't have that freedom to explore and um and you know engageing to explore and um and you know engageing to explore and um and you know engageing the right level of risk and the right the right level of risk and the right the right level of risk and the right amount of trouble and the right amount amount of trouble and the right amount amount of trouble and the right amount of uncertainty so so I think it's so of uncertainty so so I think it's so of uncertainty so so I think it's so thrilling to see Schools public private thrilling to see Schools public private thrilling to see Schools public private all over the country like taking all over the country like taking all over the country like taking technology and and really sequestering technology and and really sequestering technology and and really sequestering technology at least during the school technology at least during the school technology at least during the school day so that young people are interacting day so that young people are interacting day so that young people are interacting more with each other coming up with new more with each other coming up with new more with each other coming up with new fund during lunch that doesn't involve fund during lunch that doesn't involve fund during lunch that doesn't involve their phones Etc so so I I I've seing a their phones Etc so so I I I've seing a their phones Etc so so I I I've seing a little bit of momentum toward more play little bit of momentum toward more play little bit of momentum toward more play and and less technology which I think is and and less technology which I think is and and less technology which I think is right on so there's new data that has

right on so there's new data that has right on so there's new data that has come out in 2025 which really surprised come out in 2025 which really surprised come out in 2025 which really surprised me that young men for the first time in me that young men for the first time in me that young men for the first time in statistical history seem to be more statistical history seem to be more statistical history seem to be more spiritually curious and engaged than spiritually curious and engaged than spiritually curious and engaged than young women and we're talking about men young women and we're talking about men young women and we're talking about men and women in their 20s here and and that and women in their 20s here and and that and women in their 20s here and and that women are dropping out of church faster women are dropping out of church faster women are dropping out of church faster than men are and men are engaging at a than men are and men are engaging at a than men are and men are engaging at a deeper rate than women are yeah thoughts deeper rate than women are yeah thoughts deeper rate than women are yeah thoughts yeah Tera um well again I'm a parent of yeah Tera um well again I'm a parent of yeah Tera um well again I'm a parent of two daughters and I it it Grieves me two daughters and I it it Grieves me two daughters and I it it Grieves me that young people and especially young that young people and especially young that young people and especially young women don't see the church as Pro women don't see the church as Pro women don't see the church as Pro women um I think they whether it's a women um I think they whether it's a women um I think they whether it's a church that is theologically church that is theologically church that is theologically conservative or maybe not even conservative or maybe not even conservative or maybe not even theologically conservative but not theologically conservative but not theologically conservative but not proactive in championing women in proactive in championing women in proactive in championing women in leadership uh I think I think women look leadership uh I think I think women look leadership uh I think I think women look at the church and see it as um less Pro at the church and see it as um less Pro at the church and see it as um less Pro women than a lot of other environments women than a lot of other environments women than a lot of other environments they're in and I just wish they could they're in and I just wish they could they're in and I just wish they could meet Jesus and and really encounter meet Jesus and and really encounter meet Jesus and and really encounter Jesus because Jesus was so Pro women I Jesus because Jesus was so Pro women I Jesus because Jesus was so Pro women I mean he was Radical in how he elevated mean he was Radical in how he elevated mean he was Radical in how he elevated and treated women especially given first and treated women especially given first and treated women especially given first century Norms a and you know I wish century Norms a and you know I wish century Norms a and you know I wish women saw the church as a leadership women saw the church as a leadership women saw the church as a leadership laboratory that really developed them

laboratory that really developed them laboratory that really developed them which honestly it was for me as a which honestly it was for me as a which honestly it was for me as a teenager and a college student and young teenager and a college student and young teenager and a college student and young adult largely because other men in adult largely because other men in adult largely because other men in leadership saw my potential and were leadership saw my potential and were leadership saw my potential and were willing to give me new opportunities willing to give me new opportunities willing to give me new opportunities even if that meant they didn't speak at even if that meant they didn't speak at even if that meant they didn't speak at something because they encouraged me to something because they encouraged me to something because they encouraged me to be a speaker you know men made be a speaker you know men made be a speaker you know men made sacrifices for me and so the church was sacrifices for me and so the church was sacrifices for me and so the church was an incredible leadership laboratory for an incredible leadership laboratory for an incredible leadership laboratory for me and that's that's what I wish women me and that's that's what I wish women me and that's that's what I wish women well and young men saw it as as if they well and young men saw it as as if they well and young men saw it as as if they want to be developed As Leaders the want to be developed As Leaders the want to be developed As Leaders the local church is the place to go because local church is the place to go because local church is the place to go because that's how I Think Jesus was Cara I I that's how I Think Jesus was Cara I I that's how I Think Jesus was Cara I I don't even want to let this come out of don't even want to let this come out of don't even want to let this come out of my mouth but you can imagine on YouTube my mouth but you can imagine on YouTube my mouth but you can imagine on YouTube now you have to now you have to I know I now you have to now you have to I know I now you have to now you have to I know I know you have to you will get this you know you have to you will get this you know you have to you will get this you can imagine the comments that are being can imagine the comments that are being can imagine the comments that are being written right now on YouTube YouTube in written right now on YouTube YouTube in written right now on YouTube YouTube in response to what you said yeah about response to what you said yeah about response to what you said yeah about women's role in the church yeah talk to women's role in the church yeah talk to women's role in the church yeah talk to those commenters those commenters those commenters yeah all people are made in God's image yeah all people are made in God's image yeah all people are made in God's image and I think one of the ways that the church I I if I wanted to say that the church I I if I wanted to say it really strongly I would say the it really strongly I would say the it really strongly I would say the church is wasting human talent and you church is wasting human talent and you church is wasting human talent and you can tell I'm getting emotional about can tell I'm getting emotional about can tell I'm getting emotional about this me too me too one of the ways the this me too me too one of the ways the this me too me too one of the ways the church is if we want to say strongly church is if we want to say strongly church is if we want to say strongly wasting human Talent is we are keeping wasting human Talent is we are keeping wasting human Talent is we are keeping women small um and women end up keeping women small um and women end up keeping women small um and women end up keeping themselves small and not being the size

themselves small and not being the size themselves small and not being the size God's made them to be which you know you God's made them to be which you know you God's made them to be which you know you asked me about my daughters like this asked me about my daughters like this asked me about my daughters like this was an image that I felt like God gave was an image that I felt like God gave was an image that I felt like God gave me when our oldest daughter was in me when our oldest daughter was in me when our oldest daughter was in fourth grade and I said to her I want fourth grade and I said to her I want fourth grade and I said to her I want you to be the size God's made you to be you to be the size God's made you to be you to be the size God's made you to be um not smaller than God's made you to be um not smaller than God's made you to be um not smaller than God's made you to be and not artificially bigger than God's and not artificially bigger than God's and not artificially bigger than God's made you to be be the size that God's made you to be be the size that God's made you to be be the size that God's made you to be and that's what I want made you to be and that's what I want made you to be and that's what I want for all people and especially for women for all people and especially for women for all people and especially for women and especially for churches to look at and especially for churches to look at and especially for churches to look at the women in their midst and in their the women in their midst and in their the women in their midst and in their community and ask that question what do community and ask that question what do community and ask that question what do you want to see God do through you that you want to see God do through you that you want to see God do through you that we talked about earlier and then make it we talked about earlier and then make it we talked about earlier and then make it possible for God to do that and maybe possible for God to do that and maybe possible for God to do that and maybe even more through them so yeah thanks even more through them so yeah thanks even more through them so yeah thanks for asking Carrie wow ah well thank you for asking Carrie wow ah well thank you for asking Carrie wow ah well thank you and I would would just say to the and I would would just say to the and I would would just say to the commenters what's underneath that commenters what's underneath that commenters what's underneath that opposition is it a fear yeah what's opposition is it a fear yeah what's opposition is it a fear yeah what's there what's really probing it and you there what's really probing it and you there what's really probing it and you know there's there's and and I want to know there's there's and and I want to know there's there's and and I want to Nuance that by saying there's you know Nuance that by saying there's you know Nuance that by saying there's you know theological distinctives people have um theological distinctives people have um theological distinctives people have um very I mean Katie Cole's been a guest on very I mean Katie Cole's been a guest on very I mean Katie Cole's been a guest on this podcast and she would respect this podcast and she would respect this podcast and she would respect complementarians and egalitarians and complementarians and egalitarians and complementarians and egalitarians and the whole business but there doesn't the whole business but there doesn't the whole business but there doesn't have to be the vital and the hatred and have to be the vital and the hatred and have to be the vital and the hatred and the fear and the name calling and the the fear and the name calling and the the fear and the name calling and the meanness back to where we started what meanness back to where we started what meanness back to where we started what turns off young people from the church turns off young people from the church turns off young people from the church that right that right that right absolutely and if I can just add one

absolutely and if I can just add one absolutely and if I can just add one more thought like I um I am more thought like I um I am more thought like I um I am egalitarian uh and I end up in a lot of egalitarian uh and I end up in a lot of egalitarian uh and I end up in a lot of spaces that aren't egalitarian yeah and spaces that aren't egalitarian yeah and spaces that aren't egalitarian yeah and so my invitation to leaders and really so my invitation to leaders and really so my invitation to leaders and really all Jesus followers is do the homework all Jesus followers is do the homework all Jesus followers is do the homework of studying scripture and coming up with of studying scripture and coming up with of studying scripture and coming up with your theology of women and Leadership your theology of women and Leadership your theology of women and Leadership and if you end up having different and if you end up having different and if you end up having different boundaries than I have let's just say uh boundaries than I have let's just say uh boundaries than I have let's just say uh you know if you end up with a smaller you know if you end up with a smaller you know if you end up with a smaller range of roles that you think women can range of roles that you think women can range of roles that you think women can serve in I might disagree with you but serve in I might disagree with you but serve in I might disagree with you but here's what I would say like develop here's what I would say like develop here's what I would say like develop women to the best possible ability women to the best possible ability women to the best possible ability within those boundaries so uh you know within those boundaries so uh you know within those boundaries so uh you know even if we disagree theologically please even if we disagree theologically please even if we disagree theologically please prioritize the development of women as prioritize the development of women as prioritize the development of women as much as you're theologically comfortable much as you're theologically comfortable much as you're theologically comfortable with because that's going to make the with because that's going to make the with because that's going to make the church a better home for both genders church a better home for both genders church a better home for both genders because I think men are looking around because I think men are looking around because I think men are looking around and wondering how are the churches doing and wondering how are the churches doing and wondering how are the churches doing at at developing women too so it also at at developing women too so it also at at developing women too so it also makes a difference to many thoughtful makes a difference to many thoughtful makes a difference to many thoughtful young men these young men these young men these days when you think about men dialing days when you think about men dialing days when you think about men dialing into the church yeah what do you see why into the church yeah what do you see why into the church yeah what do you see why do you think there's that Curiosity in do you think there's that Curiosity in do you think there's that Curiosity in young young young men well I because I think men well I because I think men well I because I think churches are doing a better job asking churches are doing a better job asking churches are doing a better job asking that question to young men what do you that question to young men what do you that question to young men what do you want to see God do through you and then want to see God do through you and then want to see God do through you and then giving them the opportunities giving giving them the opportunities giving giving them the opportunities giving them the training uh giving them the

them the training uh giving them the them the training uh giving them the keys either literal or metaphorical keys either literal or metaphorical keys either literal or metaphorical where they can then develop those gifts where they can then develop those gifts where they can then develop those gifts and I I also think back to what you said and I I also think back to what you said and I I also think back to what you said Carrie you know a night an 18 or a 25 Carrie you know a night an 18 or a 25 Carrie you know a night an 18 or a 25 year old man in the typical Church he's year old man in the typical Church he's year old man in the typical Church he's far more likely to see someone looks far more likely to see someone looks far more likely to see someone looks like him in leadership upfront on the like him in leadership upfront on the like him in leadership upfront on the platform than you know his sister or his platform than you know his sister or his platform than you know his sister or his girlfriend or his female friend who's girlfriend or his female friend who's girlfriend or his female friend who's with him so so I think you know I'm I'm with him so so I think you know I'm I'm with him so so I think you know I'm I'm not asking churches to do anything less not asking churches to do anything less not asking churches to do anything less with men I'm saying gosh let's take what with men I'm saying gosh let's take what with men I'm saying gosh let's take what is working for men uh the visible Le is working for men uh the visible Le is working for men uh the visible Le leadership of people like them the leadership of people like them the leadership of people like them the invitation for that warmth and that uh invitation for that warmth and that uh invitation for that warmth and that uh challenge that we talked about earlier challenge that we talked about earlier challenge that we talked about earlier and let's expand that to young women too and let's expand that to young women too and let's expand that to young women too so you've had some success stories of so you've had some success stories of so you've had some success stories of churches that are really making inroads churches that are really making inroads churches that are really making inroads with the next gen and these aren't all with the next gen and these aren't all with the next gen and these aren't all mega churches with thousands of people mega churches with thousands of people mega churches with thousands of people there's and they're across the there's and they're across the there's and they're across the theological well denominational Spectrum theological well denominational Spectrum theological well denominational Spectrum I should say yeah what are what are some I should say yeah what are what are some I should say yeah what are what are some of the keys to success what are some of of the keys to success what are some of of the keys to success what are some of the best practices Cara yeah I'm glad the best practices Cara yeah I'm glad the best practices Cara yeah I'm glad you asked that Carrie so along with Jake you asked that Carrie so along with Jake you asked that Carrie so along with Jake Moulder and Ray Chang what we've done in Moulder and Ray Chang what we've done in Moulder and Ray Chang what we've done in our book is we've taken what we've our book is we've taken what we've our book is we've taken what we've learned by journeying with over a learned by journeying with over a learned by journeying with over a thousand churches through the change thousand churches through the change thousand churches through the change process as well as what we've learned process as well as what we've learned process as well as what we've learned from scripture as well as what we've from scripture as well as what we've from scripture as well as what we've learned from really good organizational learned from really good organizational learned from really good organizational research um there's a lot of good study research um there's a lot of good study research um there's a lot of good study being done on how organizations change being done on how organizations change being done on how organizations change and how leaders lead well and we've come

and how leaders lead well and we've come and how leaders lead well and we've come up with a change map for a church that up with a change map for a church that up with a change map for a church that wants to move into the future and that wants to move into the future and that wants to move into the future and that change map has four zones and they're change map has four zones and they're change map has four zones and they're pretty simple but I'll I'll hit them pretty simple but I'll I'll hit them pretty simple but I'll I'll hit them real quickly now maybe we can unpack real quickly now maybe we can unpack real quickly now maybe we can unpack some of them it starts with here what is some of them it starts with here what is some of them it starts with here what is your current reality how are you your current reality how are you your current reality how are you listening to your current people and listening to your current people and listening to your current people and your current Community like an audit it your current Community like an audit it your current Community like an audit it can be an audit I mean we give all sorts can be an audit I mean we give all sorts can be an audit I mean we give all sorts ofc like an honest audit an honest audit ofc like an honest audit an honest audit ofc like an honest audit an honest audit yeah what focus groups what questions yeah what focus groups what questions yeah what focus groups what questions how can you you know disseminate through how can you you know disseminate through how can you you know disseminate through small groups to really understand how small groups to really understand how small groups to really understand how people are feeling what they're thinking people are feeling what they're thinking people are feeling what they're thinking what their losses and longings are what their losses and longings are what their losses and longings are what's your current reality so that's what's your current reality so that's what's your current reality so that's the here the there is the second part of the here the there is the second part of the here the there is the second part of the map and that's God's best future for the map and that's God's best future for the map and that's God's best future for your church and you know here we can your church and you know here we can your church and you know here we can look to scripture we can look to stories look to scripture we can look to stories look to scripture we can look to stories from our church we can look to all sorts from our church we can look to all sorts from our church we can look to all sorts of ways that God might reveal that of ways that God might reveal that of ways that God might reveal that better there to us so those are the better there to us so those are the better there to us so those are the first two zones here and there then first two zones here and there then first two zones here and there then there's who these are the people that we there's who these are the people that we there's who these are the people that we get to uh lead change with and you know get to uh lead change with and you know get to uh lead change with and you know for listeners to this podcast you might for listeners to this podcast you might for listeners to this podcast you might be listening to this podcast on your own be listening to this podcast on your own be listening to this podcast on your own you can listen to a podcast on your own you can listen to a podcast on your own you can listen to a podcast on your own you can't bring about change on your own you can't bring about change on your own you can't bring about change on your own and so how do you create the team and so how do you create the team and so how do you create the team regardless of what size Church you're at regardless of what size Church you're at regardless of what size Church you're at whether you're at a church of 75 or whether you're at a church of 75 or whether you're at a church of 75 or church at 7500 how do you create a team church at 7500 how do you create a team church at 7500 how do you create a team that leads toward that better there and that leads toward that better there and that leads toward that better there and then lastly and this is what we spend then lastly and this is what we spend then lastly and this is what we spend more time on than anything else is the

more time on than anything else is the more time on than anything else is the how how do you take this who this group how how do you take this who this group how how do you take this who this group of people and move from here to there of people and move from here to there of people and move from here to there and here there's so many practical and here there's so many practical and here there's so many practical things that churches can apply um like things that churches can apply um like things that churches can apply um like leveraging small winds like taking leveraging small winds like taking leveraging small winds like taking taking advantage of experiments like taking advantage of experiments like taking advantage of experiments like failing people's expectations at a rate failing people's expectations at a rate failing people's expectations at a rate they can stand those are just some of they can stand those are just some of they can stand those are just some of the lessons we give on that how so it's the lessons we give on that how so it's the lessons we give on that how so it's here there who and how any church can do here there who and how any church can do here there who and how any church can do this and experience a better future can this and experience a better future can this and experience a better future can you explain failing people's you explain failing people's you explain failing people's expectations at a rate they can stand expectations at a rate they can stand expectations at a rate they can stand yeah yeah well see what's interesting is yeah yeah well see what's interesting is yeah yeah well see what's interesting is all of us have what my colleague at all of us have what my colleague at all of us have what my colleague at Fuller Scott cor mode calls mental Fuller Scott cor mode calls mental Fuller Scott cor mode calls mental models of leadership and even a mental models of leadership and even a mental models of leadership and even a mental model of a church what we think church model of a church what we think church model of a church what we think church should be and a lot of times when we are should be and a lot of times when we are should be and a lot of times when we are bringing about change we're offering bringing about change we're offering bringing about change we're offering people a different mental model uh than people a different mental model uh than people a different mental model uh than they're expecting a different picture of they're expecting a different picture of they're expecting a different picture of what church or what leadership even what church or what leadership even what church or what leadership even looks like and a big key to failing looks like and a big key to failing looks like and a big key to failing people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can stand is understanding how quickly your stand is understanding how quickly your stand is understanding how quickly your church can change um what we have found church can change um what we have found church can change um what we have found time and time again this is this is true time and time again this is this is true time and time again this is this is true with my own church when my own church with my own church when my own church with my own church when my own church went through our training at Fuller we went through our training at Fuller we went through our training at Fuller we found time and time again churches found time and time again churches found time and time again churches overestimate what they can accomplish in overestimate what they can accomplish in overestimate what they can accomplish in a year but underestimate what they can a year but underestimate what they can a year but underestimate what they can accomplish in three years so churches accomplish in three years so churches accomplish in three years so churches are trying to do too much in that first are trying to do too much in that first are trying to do too much in that first year they're too much like a microwave

year they're too much like a microwave year they're too much like a microwave and they need to be more like a slow and they need to be more like a slow and they need to be more like a slow cooker in that first year uh and cooker in that first year uh and cooker in that first year uh and building for the next two or three years building for the next two or three years building for the next two or three years uh and that's how they can see longer uh and that's how they can see longer uh and that's how they can see longer term change I I'll just give you a more term change I I'll just give you a more term change I I'll just give you a more specific tangible example um a lot of specific tangible example um a lot of specific tangible example um a lot of times when it comes to prioritizing the times when it comes to prioritizing the times when it comes to prioritizing the younger generation there's senior adults younger generation there's senior adults younger generation there's senior adults who end up feeling like they've lost who end up feeling like they've lost who end up feeling like they've lost something um if a church is going to be something um if a church is going to be something um if a church is going to be more mindful of young people that might more mindful of young people that might more mindful of young people that might mean that senior adults get a little bit mean that senior adults get a little bit mean that senior adults get a little bit less attention and energy um and that less attention and energy um and that less attention and energy um and that could be threatening to senior adults could be threatening to senior adults could be threatening to senior adults understandably but what we saw and what understandably but what we saw and what understandably but what we saw and what we continue to see is that when churches we continue to see is that when churches we continue to see is that when churches give somebody who's going to lose give somebody who's going to lose give somebody who's going to lose something a powerful taste of what they something a powerful taste of what they something a powerful taste of what they gain something or someone they love gain something or someone they love gain something or someone they love that's going to be better off because of that's going to be better off because of that's going to be better off because of the change then then they're all in and the change then then they're all in and the change then then they're all in and that's part of what it means to fail that's part of what it means to fail that's part of what it means to fail people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can stand so you know again using senior stand so you know again using senior stand so you know again using senior adults as an example or just adults in adults as an example or just adults in adults as an example or just adults in general uh there's one church that general uh there's one church that general uh there's one church that wanted to move toward more contemporary wanted to move toward more contemporary wanted to move toward more contemporary worship worship worship involving young people more upfront that involving young people more upfront that involving young people more upfront that was a little jarring to senior adults was a little jarring to senior adults was a little jarring to senior adults until the church said let's think about until the church said let's think about until the church said let's think about your grandkids let's think about the your grandkids let's think about the your grandkids let's think about the kind of church that your grandkids would kind of church that your grandkids would kind of church that your grandkids would want to bring their friends to and want to bring their friends to and want to bring their friends to and that's when the penny dropped and those that's when the penny dropped and those that's when the penny dropped and those adults who had been hesitant and even

adults who had been hesitant and even adults who had been hesitant and even opposing the change all of a sudden they opposing the change all of a sudden they opposing the change all of a sudden they said oh if it if it benefits my grandkid said oh if it if it benefits my grandkid said oh if it if it benefits my grandkid then and their friends then then I'm I'm then and their friends then then I'm I'm then and their friends then then I'm I'm in for things that are not my first in for things that are not my first in for things that are not my first choice so that's an example of failing choice so that's an example of failing choice so that's an example of failing people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can people's expectations at a rate they can stand you've done years and years of stand you've done years and years of stand you've done years and years of research written so many research written so many research written so many books but if you had to bet everything books but if you had to bet everything books but if you had to bet everything you own on one strategy that would you own on one strategy that would you own on one strategy that would really be a key toward Church really be a key toward Church really be a key toward Church revitalization what would that be yeah somebody asked me that question yeah somebody asked me that question similar version uh maybe 12 months ago similar version uh maybe 12 months ago similar version uh maybe 12 months ago how would you describe all of your how would you describe all of your how would you describe all of your research at the Fuller youth Institute research at the Fuller youth Institute research at the Fuller youth Institute in one sentence and my answer was in one sentence and my answer was in one sentence and my answer was um Faith formation of young people is um Faith formation of young people is um Faith formation of young people is about caring trusted Jesus centered about caring trusted Jesus centered about caring trusted Jesus centered adults accompanying young people in life adults accompanying young people in life adults accompanying young people in life and faith and I will be a broken record and faith and I will be a broken record and faith and I will be a broken record I will I will continue to say that on I will I will continue to say that on I will I will continue to say that on every podcast and every conversation and every podcast and every conversation and every podcast and every conversation and every talk and every blog post and every every talk and every blog post and every every talk and every blog post and every book Etc is there's there's a lot of book Etc is there's there's a lot of book Etc is there's there's a lot of things that are powerful in the future things that are powerful in the future things that are powerful in the future of the church and the role that young of the church and the role that young of the church and the role that young people play in it there's nothing more people play in it there's nothing more people play in it there's nothing more powerful than adults investing in young powerful than adults investing in young powerful than adults investing in young people and and again Carrie any church people and and again Carrie any church people and and again Carrie any church can do this and you never know the kind can do this and you never know the kind can do this and you never know the kind of dramatic change that God's going to of dramatic change that God's going to of dramatic change that God's going to bring one of the churches that we love

bring one of the churches that we love bring one of the churches that we love studying was a church in Indiana this studying was a church in Indiana this studying was a church in Indiana this church had been several hundred had church had been several hundred had church had been several hundred had dwindled down to 50 75 people hardly any dwindled down to 50 75 people hardly any dwindled down to 50 75 people hardly any young people uh they were about to close young people uh they were about to close young people uh they were about to close their doors and sell their property as a their doors and sell their property as a their doors and sell their property as a lot of churches are contemplating these lot of churches are contemplating these lot of churches are contemplating these days but then they they thought about days but then they they thought about days but then they they thought about the college that was two miles away and the college that was two miles away and the college that was two miles away and they said you know what we don't have they said you know what we don't have they said you know what we don't have college students now but if we start college students now but if we start college students now but if we start spending time on that college campus if spending time on that college campus if spending time on that college campus if we start building relationships in dorms we start building relationships in dorms we start building relationships in dorms if we start telling our pastor hey we if we start telling our pastor hey we if we start telling our pastor hey we don't want you to be in the office we don't want you to be in the office we don't want you to be in the office we want you to be on the college campus want you to be on the college campus want you to be on the college campus Building relationships well then maybe Building relationships well then maybe Building relationships well then maybe God can do something that church in God can do something that church in God can do something that church in Indiana that was 5075 about to shut its Indiana that was 5075 about to shut its Indiana that was 5075 about to shut its doors it's now 1500 people a thousand of doors it's now 1500 people a thousand of doors it's now 1500 people a thousand of whom are under whom are under whom are under 30 because the church said it's not too 30 because the church said it's not too 30 because the church said it's not too late for us to mobilize our adults to be late for us to mobilize our adults to be late for us to mobilize our adults to be you know trusted caring Jesus centered you know trusted caring Jesus centered you know trusted caring Jesus centered adults building relationships with young adults building relationships with young adults building relationships with young people now that's a pretty dramatic people now that's a pretty dramatic people now that's a pretty dramatic turnaround most of our you know change turnaround most of our you know change turnaround most of our you know change stories about future focused churches stories about future focused churches stories about future focused churches aren't quite that dramatic but you just aren't quite that dramatic but you just aren't quite that dramatic but you just never know how the holy spirit's going never know how the holy spirit's going never know how the holy spirit's going to work I think one of the things that to work I think one of the things that to work I think one of the things that really resonates having known you for really resonates having known you for really resonates having known you for years and years and you've been a years and years and you've been a years and years and you've been a multiple guest on this podcast is the multiple guest on this podcast is the multiple guest on this podcast is the key word accompanying yeah uh because I key word accompanying yeah uh because I key word accompanying yeah uh because I think a lot of us in the lead Pastor think a lot of us in the lead Pastor think a lot of us in the lead Pastor role we're still like I'm standing here role we're still like I'm standing here role we're still like I'm standing here telling you uh come and join me um well telling you uh come and join me um well telling you uh come and join me um well we you know spent some money I didn't we you know spent some money I didn't we you know spent some money I didn't see them show up uh accompanying is a

see them show up uh accompanying is a see them show up uh accompanying is a really great Key Well Cara your new book really great Key Well Cara your new book really great Key Well Cara your new book is called future Focus Church it's is called future Focus Church it's is called future Focus Church it's available everywhere uh anywhere in available everywhere uh anywhere in available everywhere uh anywhere in particular you want to direct people a particular you want to direct people a particular you want to direct people a website social media account where you website social media account where you website social media account where you can connect with them you bet Carrie uh can connect with them you bet Carrie uh can connect with them you bet Carrie uh we're such fans of this show that we've we're such fans of this show that we've we're such fans of this show that we've actually created a special a special actually created a special a special actually created a special a special cluster of free resources for folks if cluster of free resources for folks if cluster of free resources for folks if yeah if they go to Future Focus yeah if they go to Future Focus yeah if they go to Future Focus church.com carry your name so future church.com carry your name so future church.com carry your name so future Focus church.com carry uh folks can Focus church.com carry uh folks can Focus church.com carry uh folks can download a free chapter of the book they download a free chapter of the book they download a free chapter of the book they can get a book discuss guide that they can get a book discuss guide that they can get a book discuss guide that they can use with their leadership teams to can use with their leadership teams to can use with their leadership teams to start making progress as well as start making progress as well as start making progress as well as additional resources so that would be additional resources so that would be additional resources so that would be the best place for folks to go that's the best place for folks to go that's the best place for folks to go that's awesome Cara until next time thank you awesome Cara until next time thank you awesome Cara until next time thank you so much thank you