Dying Churches Need to Hand Over the Keys (My Response)

said, "Okay, not expecting this." I said, "Okay, not expecting this." I said, "Aren't you said, "Aren't you said, "Aren't you glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith that God was going to do something?" I that God was going to do something?" I that God was going to do something?" I mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis was there. She was part of the church was there. She was part of the church was there. She was part of the church that was like six people. I'm like, that was like six people. I'm like, that was like six people. I'm like, could you imagine that one day? I Our could you imagine that one day? I Our could you imagine that one day? I Our biggest problem right now at Kexus is biggest problem right now at Kexus is biggest problem right now at Kexus is we're out of space. We're putting chairs we're out of space. We're putting chairs we're out of space. We're putting chairs in the aisles, adding services. We're in the aisles, adding services. We're in the aisles, adding services. We're out of out of out of space. And you know, they're now all in space. And you know, they're now all in space. And you know, they're now all in their 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And their 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And their 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And I'm like, can you believe that God did I'm like, can you believe that God did I'm like, can you believe that God did this? See that? Yeah. The emotional this? See that? Yeah. The emotional this? See that? Yeah. The emotional attachment to the buildings. How about attachment to the buildings. How about attachment to the buildings. How about emotional attachment to the kingdom? emotional attachment to the kingdom? emotional attachment to the kingdom? Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. So glad you joined leadership podcast. So glad you joined leadership podcast. So glad you joined us. I hope our time together today helps us. I hope our time together today helps us. I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. And you thrive in life and leadership. And you thrive in life and leadership. And guess what? We are experimenting in guess what? We are experimenting in guess what? We are experimenting in 2025. We've been doing this for 10 2025. We've been doing this for 10 2025. We've been doing this for 10 years. And so, but once a month, I try years. And so, but once a month, I try years. And so, but once a month, I try something different. did some pick your something different. did some pick your something different. did some pick your brain episodes, have done some solo brain episodes, have done some solo brain episodes, have done some solo episodes. Earlier this year, I posted a episodes. Earlier this year, I posted a episodes. Earlier this year, I posted a video on YouTube called the shocking video on YouTube called the shocking video on YouTube called the shocking truth about dying churches and why they truth about dying churches and why they truth about dying churches and why they won't donate their buildings. And man, won't donate their buildings. And man, won't donate their buildings. And man, did it ever get a reaction. And uh this did it ever get a reaction. And uh this did it ever get a reaction. And uh this is a really important topic to me and I is a really important topic to me and I is a really important topic to me and I thought I'm going to address this on my thought I'm going to address this on my thought I'm going to address this on my podcast. So what I'm going to do, I'm podcast. So what I'm going to do, I'm podcast. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to walk you through my argument going to walk you through my argument going to walk you through my argument and then I'm going to walk you through and then I'm going to walk you through and then I'm going to walk you through viewers responses to them. And this is viewers responses to them. And this is viewers responses to them. And this is going to do two things. Number one, I going to do two things. Number one, I going to do two things. Number one, I really want this to be a um well, a really want this to be a um well, a really want this to be a um well, a treatment of this issue. I think it's treatment of this issue. I think it's treatment of this issue. I think it's really important if you're part of a really important if you're part of a really important if you're part of a dying church, you know what I think you dying church, you know what I think you dying church, you know what I think you should do? No secret, I think you should should do? No secret, I think you should should do? No secret, I think you should flip the keys to a growing church flip the keys to a growing church flip the keys to a growing church because churches that have buildings um

because churches that have buildings um because churches that have buildings um often don't have people and churches often don't have people and churches often don't have people and churches that have people often don't have that have people often don't have that have people often don't have buildings and why don't we just do a buildings and why don't we just do a buildings and why don't we just do a kingdom flip? But there was a big kingdom flip? But there was a big kingdom flip? But there was a big reaction to it and a lot of people had a reaction to it and a lot of people had a reaction to it and a lot of people had a million reasons why they thought it was million reasons why they thought it was million reasons why they thought it was a bad idea. So I'm going to engage those a bad idea. So I'm going to engage those a bad idea. So I'm going to engage those comments. So on the one hand, this comments. So on the one hand, this comments. So on the one hand, this podcast episode is about the issue. On podcast episode is about the issue. On podcast episode is about the issue. On the other hand, as a leader, guess what? the other hand, as a leader, guess what? the other hand, as a leader, guess what? You get a lot of push back to your You get a lot of push back to your You get a lot of push back to your ideas. And so what I want to do is I ideas. And so what I want to do is I ideas. And so what I want to do is I want to walk through some of the want to walk through some of the want to walk through some of the objections to my argument and I want to objections to my argument and I want to objections to my argument and I want to address them here on the podcast. So address them here on the podcast. So address them here on the podcast. So this totally different. Let me know what this totally different. Let me know what this totally different. Let me know what you think, okay? And uh this is going to you think, okay? And uh this is going to you think, okay? And uh this is going to be a lot of fun. Hey, we got show notes be a lot of fun. Hey, we got show notes be a lot of fun. Hey, we got show notes for you too on this pod. Uh we've got a for you too on this pod. Uh we've got a for you too on this pod. Uh we've got a brand new way of doing the show notes brand new way of doing the show notes brand new way of doing the show notes that I'm very excited about. You can go that I'm very excited about. You can go that I'm very excited about. You can go to to to kerryuhoff.com/showotes. And what that kerryuhoff.com/showotes. And what that kerryuhoff.com/showotes. And what that will do when you sign up there, you not will do when you sign up there, you not will do when you sign up there, you not only get the show notes to this and all only get the show notes to this and all only get the show notes to this and all the research, but you get uh show notes the research, but you get uh show notes the research, but you get uh show notes to every episode we do, but you become to every episode we do, but you become to every episode we do, but you become part of a brand new free tier in my art part of a brand new free tier in my art part of a brand new free tier in my art of leadership academy. And we want to of leadership academy. And we want to of leadership academy. And we want to bring back conversation and uh you can bring back conversation and uh you can bring back conversation and uh you can comment on this episode in there. So comment on this episode in there. So comment on this episode in there. So make sure you check it out. carry make sure you check it out. carry make sure you check it out. carry newhoff.com/showotes or visit the link newhoff.com/showotes or visit the link newhoff.com/showotes or visit the link in description. And we're also doing a in description. And we're also doing a in description. And we're also doing a book giveaway. So, for this episode, I'm book giveaway. So, for this episode, I'm book giveaway. So, for this episode, I'm giving away a copy of my book, At Your giving away a copy of my book, At Your giving away a copy of my book, At Your Best, to five lucky winners. If you want Best, to five lucky winners. If you want Best, to five lucky winners. If you want to enter, just comment, "I'm ready to to enter, just comment, "I'm ready to to enter, just comment, "I'm ready to live at My Best on this YouTube video if live at My Best on this YouTube video if live at My Best on this YouTube video if you're watching on YouTube, and we'll you're watching on YouTube, and we'll you're watching on YouTube, and we'll make sure we get those to you." So, make sure we get those to you." So, make sure we get those to you." So, we're going to jump into today's topic.

we're going to jump into today's topic. we're going to jump into today's topic. Here's why I think dying churches should Here's why I think dying churches should Here's why I think dying churches should flip the keys for free to growing flip the keys for free to growing flip the keys for free to growing churches, church plants, churches that churches, church plants, churches that churches, church plants, churches that are exploding. All right, we're gonna are exploding. All right, we're gonna are exploding. All right, we're gonna talk about that and I'm going to show talk about that and I'm going to show talk about that and I'm going to show you how to engage the critics in the you how to engage the critics in the you how to engage the critics in the midst of this as well. But first, a word midst of this as well. But first, a word midst of this as well. But first, a word from our very carefully trusted from our very carefully trusted from our very carefully trusted partners. Hey, this episode is brought partners. Hey, this episode is brought partners. Hey, this episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. So, if this podcast is part of your So, if this podcast is part of your So, if this podcast is part of your growth and rhythm in leadership, I think growth and rhythm in leadership, I think growth and rhythm in leadership, I think you're going to love what I'm going to you're going to love what I'm going to you're going to love what I'm going to share with you inside my art of share with you inside my art of share with you inside my art of leadership academy. We have just opened leadership academy. We have just opened leadership academy. We have just opened up a few brand new spaces for you to up a few brand new spaces for you to up a few brand new spaces for you to lead more effectively and grow your lead more effectively and grow your lead more effectively and grow your leadership. And the price, you're going leadership. And the price, you're going leadership. And the price, you're going to love it. It's absolutely free. So, to love it. It's absolutely free. So, to love it. It's absolutely free. So, what I would love for you to do is go what I would love for you to do is go what I would love for you to do is go and set up your free account today and set up your free account today and set up your free account today because you're going to be able to join because you're going to be able to join because you're going to be able to join a lifegiving online community. Think a lifegiving online community. Think a lifegiving online community. Think social media, but only for pastors and social media, but only for pastors and social media, but only for pastors and church leaders who are looking to grow church leaders who are looking to grow church leaders who are looking to grow and support each other. You can cut the and support each other. You can cut the and support each other. You can cut the noise, the the trolls, the the junk you noise, the the trolls, the the junk you noise, the the trolls, the the junk you get everywhere else. Actually, it's just get everywhere else. Actually, it's just get everywhere else. Actually, it's just a community of church leaders who really a community of church leaders who really a community of church leaders who really care about the mission of the church. I care about the mission of the church. I care about the mission of the church. I would love for you to be involved. And would love for you to be involved. And would love for you to be involved. And the big part of this is you'll be able the big part of this is you'll be able the big part of this is you'll be able to connect with other podcast listeners to connect with other podcast listeners to connect with other podcast listeners about each episode of my podcast, about each episode of my podcast, about each episode of my podcast, including me. I'm going to be active on including me. I'm going to be active on including me. I'm going to be active on there. You'll get exclusive insights by there. You'll get exclusive insights by there. You'll get exclusive insights by asking questions, sharing insights, and asking questions, sharing insights, and asking questions, sharing insights, and learning how others are applying what learning how others are applying what learning how others are applying what they're learning on this podcast to real they're learning on this podcast to real they're learning on this podcast to real life situations in their church and life situations in their church and life situations in their church and ministry or their business. So, ministry or their business. So, ministry or their business. So, everything you get will help you lead everything you get will help you lead everything you get will help you lead more effectively to grow faster and

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every month, zero cost. So, curious? every month, zero cost. So, curious? Sign up today at Sign up today at Sign up today at glue.com/meaging and start communicating glue.com/meaging and start communicating glue.com/meaging and start communicating with ease through automation. That's with ease through automation. That's with ease through automation. That's glue glue glue glo.com/meagsing and get started today. glo.com/meagsing and get started today. glo.com/meagsing and get started today. So, here's what's happening in your town So, here's what's happening in your town So, here's what's happening in your town um across America, around the world. um across America, around the world. um across America, around the world. Young families and church planters, Young families and church planters, Young families and church planters, church leaders are crammed into strip church leaders are crammed into strip church leaders are crammed into strip malls, rented school gyms, borrowed malls, rented school gyms, borrowed malls, rented school gyms, borrowed facilities. And meanwhile, half a mile, facilities. And meanwhile, half a mile, facilities. And meanwhile, half a mile, a mile, 5 miles down the road, beautiful a mile, 5 miles down the road, beautiful a mile, 5 miles down the road, beautiful old church buildings are sitting nearly old church buildings are sitting nearly old church buildings are sitting nearly empty on Sunday mornings with 30 people empty on Sunday mornings with 30 people empty on Sunday mornings with 30 people in their 80s still gathering. Okay, in their 80s still gathering. Okay, in their 80s still gathering. Okay, you've seen this play out again and you've seen this play out again and you've seen this play out again and again and again. And did you know the again and again. And did you know the again and again. And did you know the stats? I covered this in my church stats? I covered this in my church stats? I covered this in my church trends post at the beginning of the year trends post at the beginning of the year trends post at the beginning of the year and in the podcast on it. A little more and in the podcast on it. A little more and in the podcast on it. A little more than once every hour. Okay, listen to than once every hour. Okay, listen to than once every hour. Okay, listen to this. 10,000 churches, up to 10,000 this. 10,000 churches, up to 10,000 this. 10,000 churches, up to 10,000 churches are closing every year in churches are closing every year in churches are closing every year in America alone. So that means a little America alone. So that means a little America alone. So that means a little more than once every hour, another more than once every hour, another more than once every hour, another church closes its doors permanently. And church closes its doors permanently. And church closes its doors permanently. And that's not a problem. That's like a that's not a problem. That's like a that's not a problem. That's like a kingdom crisis, right? Uh I mean, these kingdom crisis, right? Uh I mean, these kingdom crisis, right? Uh I mean, these churches are becoming breweries. They're churches are becoming breweries. They're churches are becoming breweries. They're becoming private homes. They're being becoming private homes. They're being becoming private homes. They're being torn down for condo development.

torn down for condo development. torn down for condo development. Meanwhile, you got church planters and Meanwhile, you got church planters and Meanwhile, you got church planters and rejuvenated churches that are begging rejuvenated churches that are begging rejuvenated churches that are begging for facilities that can't find them. And for facilities that can't find them. And for facilities that can't find them. And the challenge is, right, the churches the challenge is, right, the churches the challenge is, right, the churches that often have buildings and money have that often have buildings and money have that often have buildings and money have no people. And the churches that have no people. And the churches that have no people. And the churches that have people often have no buildings and no people often have no buildings and no people often have no buildings and no money. Now, this happened again money. Now, this happened again money. Now, this happened again recently. I'm working with a couple of recently. I'm working with a couple of recently. I'm working with a couple of church leaders up close, but I'll pick church leaders up close, but I'll pick church leaders up close, but I'll pick one case. I could pick many. Okay? I was one case. I could pick many. Okay? I was one case. I could pick many. Okay? I was talking to a young church leader whose talking to a young church leader whose talking to a young church leader whose church plant is exploding. Okay, they're church plant is exploding. Okay, they're church plant is exploding. Okay, they're not even 2 years old. They've gone to not even 2 years old. They've gone to not even 2 years old. They've gone to four services to try to accommodate a four services to try to accommodate a four services to try to accommodate a sea of young adults. Average age there sea of young adults. Average age there sea of young adults. Average age there is 25. And no, it's not all transfer is 25. And no, it's not all transfer is 25. And no, it's not all transfer growth. Their current building, which is growth. Their current building, which is growth. Their current building, which is like a little A-frame, all right, like a little A-frame, all right, like a little A-frame, all right, doesn't fit them. They borrowed it, but doesn't fit them. They borrowed it, but doesn't fit them. They borrowed it, but the parking situation is terrible. You the parking situation is terrible. You the parking situation is terrible. You got to park like 10 minutes away. got to park like 10 minutes away. got to park like 10 minutes away. They're desperate for a new facility. They're desperate for a new facility. They're desperate for a new facility. They're not even 2 years old. And here's They're not even 2 years old. And here's They're not even 2 years old. And here's the challenge. They're surrounded by the challenge. They're surrounded by the challenge. They're surrounded by dozens of existing churches with big dozens of existing churches with big dozens of existing churches with big buildings, excellent parking, even buildings, excellent parking, even buildings, excellent parking, even acreage. But those churches have no acreage. But those churches have no acreage. But those churches have no people and they're trying to get their people and they're trying to get their people and they're trying to get their hands on a building and it's not hands on a building and it's not hands on a building and it's not working. Um they just can't get anyone working. Um they just can't get anyone working. Um they just can't get anyone to say, you know what, next generation, to say, you know what, next generation, to say, you know what, next generation, here's the keys, enjoy, you know, use here's the keys, enjoy, you know, use here's the keys, enjoy, you know, use this for the kingdom, continue our this for the kingdom, continue our this for the kingdom, continue our mission. Right? So, when you look at it mission. Right? So, when you look at it mission. Right? So, when you look at it that way, right, where you've got that way, right, where you've got that way, right, where you've got churches that have no people but churches that have no people but churches that have no people but buildings and money, and churches with a buildings and money, and churches with a buildings and money, and churches with a lot of people but no buildings and very lot of people but no buildings and very lot of people but no buildings and very little money, the swap seems obvious, little money, the swap seems obvious, little money, the swap seems obvious, doesn't it? I mean, to me, it's a doesn't it? I mean, to me, it's a doesn't it? I mean, to me, it's a no-brainer. It's just a no-brainer. So,

no-brainer. It's just a no-brainer. So, no-brainer. It's just a no-brainer. So, uh, apparently it's not a no-brainer to uh, apparently it's not a no-brainer to uh, apparently it's not a no-brainer to people sitting on those empty dying people sitting on those empty dying people sitting on those empty dying churches. So, I get angry about this. A churches. So, I get angry about this. A churches. So, I get angry about this. A few issues make me more angry or more few issues make me more angry or more few issues make me more angry or more upset than the steady resistance of upset than the steady resistance of upset than the steady resistance of dying churches. And so I want to address dying churches. And so I want to address dying churches. And so I want to address that. So I did that in this YouTube that. So I did that in this YouTube that. So I did that in this YouTube video. It got a few views and a lot of video. It got a few views and a lot of video. It got a few views and a lot of comments. And so why isn't this comments. And so why isn't this comments. And so why isn't this happening? So I know most of you haven't happening? So I know most of you haven't happening? So I know most of you haven't seen the YouTube video. I'm going to seen the YouTube video. I'm going to seen the YouTube video. I'm going to give you a quick recap. In it, I shared give you a quick recap. In it, I shared give you a quick recap. In it, I shared five reasons why existing churches five reasons why existing churches five reasons why existing churches usually do not flip the keys, which I usually do not flip the keys, which I usually do not flip the keys, which I think they should do. Okay. So reason think they should do. Okay. So reason think they should do. Okay. So reason number one, the dying church isn't number one, the dying church isn't number one, the dying church isn't thinking missionally, right? It's kind thinking missionally, right? It's kind thinking missionally, right? It's kind of about their tradition or their of about their tradition or their of about their tradition or their building or my grandfather did this. And building or my grandfather did this. And building or my grandfather did this. And listen, when I started out in ministry, listen, when I started out in ministry, listen, when I started out in ministry, I started with three, you know, I started with three, you know, I started with three, you know, hundred-year-old churches in hundred-year-old churches in hundred-year-old churches in hundred-year-old buildings. And I heard hundred-year-old buildings. And I heard hundred-year-old buildings. And I heard all those reasons and they were dying. all those reasons and they were dying. all those reasons and they were dying. Now, we were fortunate to be a church Now, we were fortunate to be a church Now, we were fortunate to be a church revitalization. Then we rebranded a revitalization. Then we rebranded a revitalization. Then we rebranded a decade later as Kexus Church, decade later as Kexus Church, decade later as Kexus Church, non-denominational. You know, it's a non-denominational. You know, it's a non-denominational. You know, it's a thriving church of thousands of people thriving church of thousands of people thriving church of thousands of people right now. So, it was a church right now. So, it was a church right now. So, it was a church rejuvenation thing. But I've been around rejuvenation thing. But I've been around rejuvenation thing. But I've been around dying churches in a church in a dying churches in a church in a dying churches in a church in a denomination full of dying churches. And denomination full of dying churches. And denomination full of dying churches. And often churches just forget to think often churches just forget to think often churches just forget to think missionally. They're thinking missionally. They're thinking missionally. They're thinking territorially. They're thinking territorially. They're thinking territorially. They're thinking denominationally. They're thinking denominationally. They're thinking denominationally. They're thinking whatever. So, that's reason number one.

whatever. So, that's reason number one. whatever. So, that's reason number one. Reason number two, why doesn't this Reason number two, why doesn't this Reason number two, why doesn't this happen? The dying church values dollars happen? The dying church values dollars happen? The dying church values dollars over disciples. Maybe they're sitting on over disciples. Maybe they're sitting on over disciples. Maybe they're sitting on some kind of endowment fund, right? some kind of endowment fund, right? some kind of endowment fund, right? Well, we got a million dollars. What Well, we got a million dollars. What Well, we got a million dollars. What could we do with that million dollars? could we do with that million dollars? could we do with that million dollars? Hint, give it to a church planter. Okay, Hint, give it to a church planter. Okay, Hint, give it to a church planter. Okay, that's what you should be doing. But that's what you should be doing. But that's what you should be doing. But they value dollars over disciples. they value dollars over disciples. they value dollars over disciples. Reason number three, the dying church Reason number three, the dying church Reason number three, the dying church doesn't like the style of the nextgen doesn't like the style of the nextgen doesn't like the style of the nextgen church. This can be a big issue, right? church. This can be a big issue, right? church. This can be a big issue, right? Well, we don't like the music. we don't Well, we don't like the music. we don't Well, we don't like the music. we don't like the way they dress and we don't like the way they dress and we don't like the way they dress and we don't like the haircut of the pastor and we like the haircut of the pastor and we like the haircut of the pastor and we don't like this and we don't like that. don't like this and we don't like that. don't like this and we don't like that. So, it kind of becomes a culture clash. So, it kind of becomes a culture clash. So, it kind of becomes a culture clash. Um but but the mission gets lost in the Um but but the mission gets lost in the Um but but the mission gets lost in the midst of it. Okay. Reason number four, midst of it. Okay. Reason number four, midst of it. Okay. Reason number four, and these are big. The lead pastor needs and these are big. The lead pastor needs and these are big. The lead pastor needs to work longer. All right. Maybe he or to work longer. All right. Maybe he or to work longer. All right. Maybe he or she is 72. They've opted out of social she is 72. They've opted out of social she is 72. They've opted out of social security. They they they need to work security. They they they need to work security. They they they need to work and they're like, "Well, you know, I got and they're like, "Well, you know, I got and they're like, "Well, you know, I got to keep going five more years before I to keep going five more years before I to keep going five more years before I can retire." Meanwhile, the fire went can retire." Meanwhile, the fire went can retire." Meanwhile, the fire went out of their belly years ago, but they out of their belly years ago, but they out of their belly years ago, but they they just need to work. Well, you can they just need to work. Well, you can they just need to work. Well, you can negotiate that. That's a that's not a negotiate that. That's a that's not a negotiate that. That's a that's not a calling issue. That's a financial issue.

calling issue. That's a financial issue. calling issue. That's a financial issue. I mean, maybe you can make a provision I mean, maybe you can make a provision I mean, maybe you can make a provision for that lead pastor to have some kind for that lead pastor to have some kind for that lead pastor to have some kind of pension or whatever as part of the of pension or whatever as part of the of pension or whatever as part of the swap between the dying church and the swap between the dying church and the swap between the dying church and the growing church. Anyway, that's a reason, growing church. Anyway, that's a reason, growing church. Anyway, that's a reason, right? The pastor needs to work longer. right? The pastor needs to work longer. right? The pastor needs to work longer. Or number five, this is huge, and this Or number five, this is huge, and this Or number five, this is huge, and this gets down to senior leadership. There's gets down to senior leadership. There's gets down to senior leadership. There's nothing for the lead pastor to do after nothing for the lead pastor to do after nothing for the lead pastor to do after the dying church closes. So those are the dying church closes. So those are the dying church closes. So those are probably the things that are going probably the things that are going probably the things that are going through the mind of the people in the through the mind of the people in the through the mind of the people in the dying church. You know, the lead pastor dying church. You know, the lead pastor dying church. You know, the lead pastor is like, "Well, this is all I know how is like, "Well, this is all I know how is like, "Well, this is all I know how to do. What am I going to do?" Right? to do. What am I going to do?" Right? to do. What am I going to do?" Right? Well, you could play with your Well, you could play with your Well, you could play with your grandchildren. You could coach other grandchildren. You could coach other grandchildren. You could coach other leaders. You could work for your leaders. You could work for your leaders. You could work for your denomination. You know, there's lots of denomination. You know, there's lots of denomination. You know, there's lots of things you could do, but a lot of things you could do, but a lot of things you could do, but a lot of pastors don't want to let go. So, those pastors don't want to let go. So, those pastors don't want to let go. So, those are the five reasons I outlined as to are the five reasons I outlined as to are the five reasons I outlined as to why this isn't happening. And then why this isn't happening. And then why this isn't happening. And then people reacted to the feedback. So, I people reacted to the feedback. So, I people reacted to the feedback. So, I want to dive into that. And again, this want to dive into that. And again, this want to dive into that. And again, this is sort of dual purpose. So it's I'm is sort of dual purpose. So it's I'm is sort of dual purpose. So it's I'm actually going to address the issues. actually going to address the issues. actually going to address the issues. And then secondly, when you as a leader And then secondly, when you as a leader And then secondly, when you as a leader get criticized, what do you do? I mean, get criticized, what do you do? I mean, get criticized, what do you do? I mean, definitely open up your notebook, take definitely open up your notebook, take definitely open up your notebook, take some notes, but how do you respond? And some notes, but how do you respond? And some notes, but how do you respond? And so I'm going to use some of my legal so I'm going to use some of my legal so I'm going to use some of my legal training and cross-examination, I'm training and cross-examination, I'm training and cross-examination, I'm sure, you know, to to refute some of sure, you know, to to refute some of sure, you know, to to refute some of this stuff. But um uh yeah, this is sort this stuff. But um uh yeah, this is sort this stuff. But um uh yeah, this is sort of a case study, but it's also an issue of a case study, but it's also an issue of a case study, but it's also an issue I'm really passionate about. So, with I'm really passionate about. So, with I'm really passionate about. So, with that in mind, let's tackle the comments that in mind, let's tackle the comments that in mind, let's tackle the comments that I got on social media, on YouTube, that I got on social media, on YouTube, that I got on social media, on YouTube, via email from people who completely via email from people who completely via email from people who completely disagreed with me. Okay. So, I've disagreed with me. Okay. So, I've disagreed with me. Okay. So, I've clustered the comments and the reactions clustered the comments and the reactions clustered the comments and the reactions into several themes. And one of the into several themes. And one of the into several themes. And one of the common objections to my argument was,

common objections to my argument was, common objections to my argument was, "Hey, Carrie, don't you know the "Hey, Carrie, don't you know the "Hey, Carrie, don't you know the denominations own the buildings?" For denominations own the buildings?" For denominations own the buildings?" For example, and I'm just using first names example, and I'm just using first names example, and I'm just using first names here. There's a million Christas. Okay? here. There's a million Christas. Okay? here. There's a million Christas. Okay? I don't know who this Christina is, but I don't know who this Christina is, but I don't know who this Christina is, but Christina on Instagram said, "Carrie, Christina on Instagram said, "Carrie, Christina on Instagram said, "Carrie, most older churches are part of a most older churches are part of a most older churches are part of a mainline denomination, and those mainline denomination, and those mainline denomination, and those denominations have rules about property, denominations have rules about property, denominations have rules about property, and many times it's actually the and many times it's actually the and many times it's actually the denomination that owns the title to the denomination that owns the title to the denomination that owns the title to the properties, making the whole thing much properties, making the whole thing much properties, making the whole thing much more complicated than just handing over more complicated than just handing over more complicated than just handing over the keys." So, first of all, Christina, the keys." So, first of all, Christina, the keys." So, first of all, Christina, you're completely correct. That is you're completely correct. That is you're completely correct. That is exactly how it works. Uh, I was in that exactly how it works. Uh, I was in that exactly how it works. Uh, I was in that situation. And so we were part of a situation. And so we were part of a situation. And so we were part of a mainline denomination when I started in mainline denomination when I started in mainline denomination when I started in the '9s with these three churches that the '9s with these three churches that the '9s with these three churches that got revitalized and then went on we got revitalized and then went on we got revitalized and then went on we became non-denominational and became became non-denominational and became became non-denominational and became Kexus church which is you know thriving Kexus church which is you know thriving Kexus church which is you know thriving today under new leadership. We're we today under new leadership. We're we today under new leadership. We're we still get to be a part of it. We're so still get to be a part of it. We're so still get to be a part of it. We're so excited and of course we left those excited and of course we left those excited and of course we left those buildings. We outgrew them decades ago. buildings. We outgrew them decades ago. buildings. We outgrew them decades ago. Um and that was our challenge. Right. So Um and that was our challenge. Right. So Um and that was our challenge. Right. So when we left the denomination we were a when we left the denomination we were a when we left the denomination we were a part of, it was kind of really part of, it was kind of really part of, it was kind of really interesting cuz um we had gone ahead uh interesting cuz um we had gone ahead uh interesting cuz um we had gone ahead uh we'd gone through several iterations. So we'd gone through several iterations. So we'd gone through several iterations. So this is about a decade into my this is about a decade into my this is about a decade into my leadership as lead pastor of what would leadership as lead pastor of what would leadership as lead pastor of what would go on to become Kexus Church, right? So go on to become Kexus Church, right? So go on to become Kexus Church, right? So we were in the three original historic we were in the three original historic we were in the three original historic buildings and they look every they look buildings and they look every they look buildings and they look every they look like every picture of of a church you've like every picture of of a church you've like every picture of of a church you've seen in New England that you could seen in New England that you could seen in New England that you could imagine. They were just small, you know, imagine. They were just small, you know, imagine. They were just small, you know, sat anywhere from 80 to 130 people.

sat anywhere from 80 to 130 people. sat anywhere from 80 to 130 people. Um, we started filling the pews and then Um, we started filling the pews and then Um, we started filling the pews and then we outgrew them. So, we moved to an we outgrew them. So, we moved to an we outgrew them. So, we moved to an elementary school. That was all cool. elementary school. That was all cool. elementary school. That was all cool. Then we raised a couple million dollars, Then we raised a couple million dollars, Then we raised a couple million dollars, built a brand new state-of-the-art built a brand new state-of-the-art built a brand new state-of-the-art facility, hosted national conferences facility, hosted national conferences facility, hosted national conferences and everything. And of course, we did and everything. And of course, we did and everything. And of course, we did all the fundraising for that quote new all the fundraising for that quote new all the fundraising for that quote new building that became our amalgamated building that became our amalgamated building that became our amalgamated ministry hub. At that time, the church ministry hub. At that time, the church ministry hub. At that time, the church before it became Kexus was called before it became Kexus was called before it became Kexus was called Trinity. So, we opened that building and Trinity. So, we opened that building and Trinity. So, we opened that building and it was great. And then we thought, well, it was great. And then we thought, well, it was great. And then we thought, well, maybe we'd do better as maybe we'd do better as maybe we'd do better as non-denominational church. And so we non-denominational church. And so we non-denominational church. And so we left. We became non-denominational and left. We became non-denominational and left. We became non-denominational and affiliated with North Point, etc. But affiliated with North Point, etc. But affiliated with North Point, etc. But that's where the denominational issue that's where the denominational issue that's where the denominational issue showed up in in our case. And that's showed up in in our case. And that's showed up in in our case. And that's where I learned you don't own the where I learned you don't own the where I learned you don't own the building. Okay? We raised all the money building. Okay? We raised all the money building. Okay? We raised all the money for it. The denomination guaranteed the for it. The denomination guaranteed the for it. The denomination guaranteed the mortgage, but we didn't own the mortgage, but we didn't own the mortgage, but we didn't own the building. The denomination did. So, I building. The denomination did. So, I building. The denomination did. So, I negotiated for a year with the negotiated for a year with the negotiated for a year with the denomination trying to say, you know denomination trying to say, you know denomination trying to say, you know what, we'll assume all assets and what, we'll assume all assets and what, we'll assume all assets and liabilities. Uh, we will give you an liabilities. Uh, we will give you an liabilities. Uh, we will give you an extra like we'll pay a premium on this extra like we'll pay a premium on this extra like we'll pay a premium on this like we just want to buy the building like we just want to buy the building like we just want to buy the building from you. You will leave ahead. You will from you. You will leave ahead. You will from you. You will leave ahead. You will you will have more money in the bank.

you will have more money in the bank. you will have more money in the bank. We'll just give it to you. And for We'll just give it to you. And for We'll just give it to you. And for reasons that they felt perfectly reasons that they felt perfectly reasons that they felt perfectly justified for, they said no. So, we justified for, they said no. So, we justified for, they said no. So, we ended up leaving this building that was ended up leaving this building that was ended up leaving this building that was just about paid for. We paid the just about paid for. We paid the just about paid for. We paid the mortgage down so fast. Uh, brand new mortgage down so fast. Uh, brand new mortgage down so fast. Uh, brand new state-of-the-art building. We ended up state-of-the-art building. We ended up state-of-the-art building. We ended up leaving and starting over again in leaving and starting over again in leaving and starting over again in theaters. Um, you know, we had to move theaters. Um, you know, we had to move theaters. Um, you know, we had to move to rented facilities. We lost all those to rented facilities. We lost all those to rented facilities. We lost all those assets. We left millions of dollars on assets. We left millions of dollars on assets. We left millions of dollars on the balance sheet and started over again the balance sheet and started over again the balance sheet and started over again with zero. So, I don't regret that. with zero. So, I don't regret that. with zero. So, I don't regret that. That's fine. But that's exactly the That's fine. But that's exactly the That's fine. But that's exactly the situation that happened to us. So, you situation that happened to us. So, you situation that happened to us. So, you know what happens to those buildings? know what happens to those buildings? know what happens to those buildings? Well, you know what happened to the Well, you know what happened to the Well, you know what happened to the building? They tried to keep it open. It building? They tried to keep it open. It building? They tried to keep it open. It didn't thrive. Um, and now it's a didn't thrive. Um, and now it's a didn't thrive. Um, and now it's a mosque. It's a mosque. Okay. The the the mosque. It's a mosque. Okay. The the the mosque. It's a mosque. Okay. The the the building 20 years later is a mosque. So building 20 years later is a mosque. So building 20 years later is a mosque. So that's the story behind our situation. that's the story behind our situation. that's the story behind our situation. So I feel that. And you know what? I So I feel that. And you know what? I So I feel that. And you know what? I think denominations have to rethink think denominations have to rethink think denominations have to rethink this. A lot of mainline denominations this. A lot of mainline denominations this. A lot of mainline denominations that sit on a lot of the properties, and that sit on a lot of the properties, and that sit on a lot of the properties, and we were maybe an early test case 20 we were maybe an early test case 20 we were maybe an early test case 20 years ago, uh, but this is happening. I years ago, uh, but this is happening. I years ago, uh, but this is happening. I mean, there's a church building closing mean, there's a church building closing mean, there's a church building closing more than once an hour in America alone.

more than once an hour in America alone. more than once an hour in America alone. So, I've got to ask denominations, and So, I've got to ask denominations, and So, I've got to ask denominations, and here's my question to any denominational here's my question to any denominational here's my question to any denominational leaders listening to this podcast. How leaders listening to this podcast. How leaders listening to this podcast. How is your approach working for you? Right? is your approach working for you? Right? is your approach working for you? Right? You got your rule books, you got your You got your rule books, you got your You got your rule books, you got your property committees, and they're property committees, and they're property committees, and they're protecting empty buildings, and they're protecting empty buildings, and they're protecting empty buildings, and they're turning them into condos and pubs, and turning them into condos and pubs, and turning them into condos and pubs, and you're selling them. But is your you're selling them. But is your you're selling them. But is your denominational policy more important denominational policy more important denominational policy more important than the great commission? Because every than the great commission? Because every than the great commission? Because every Sunday that church building sits mostly Sunday that church building sits mostly Sunday that church building sits mostly empty while a growing church struggles empty while a growing church struggles empty while a growing church struggles to find space. You know what you're to find space. You know what you're to find space. You know what you're doing is you're choosing tradition over doing is you're choosing tradition over doing is you're choosing tradition over mission. Okay. Another emailer shared. mission. Okay. Another emailer shared. mission. Okay. Another emailer shared. Our church bought a building from a Our church bought a building from a Our church bought a building from a dying church. The issue was the property dying church. The issue was the property dying church. The issue was the property was owned by the denomination but they was owned by the denomination but they was owned by the denomination but they sold to us for a discount and God sold to us for a discount and God sold to us for a discount and God provided. That was in 2019 and now we've provided. That was in 2019 and now we've provided. That was in 2019 and now we've outgrown that building too. So what I outgrown that building too. So what I outgrown that building too. So what I would say to that emailer and that would say to that emailer and that would say to that emailer and that denomination, fantastic. Great. Okay, so denomination, fantastic. Great. Okay, so denomination, fantastic. Great. Okay, so you didn't just flip the keys, but you you didn't just flip the keys, but you you didn't just flip the keys, but you sold it at a discount. And this is this sold it at a discount. And this is this sold it at a discount. And this is this is the key, too. You know, there are is the key, too. You know, there are is the key, too. You know, there are probably a couple of people who are probably a couple of people who are probably a couple of people who are like, "Wait, I gave that to you, sold it like, "Wait, I gave that to you, sold it like, "Wait, I gave that to you, sold it to you in 2019, and now you've outgrown to you in 2019, and now you've outgrown to you in 2019, and now you've outgrown it. Is that fair?" And it's like, "Well, it. Is that fair?" And it's like, "Well, it. Is that fair?" And it's like, "Well, sure. Yeah, cuz the kingdom goes on, sure. Yeah, cuz the kingdom goes on, sure. Yeah, cuz the kingdom goes on, right? We've outgrown so many facilities right? We've outgrown so many facilities right? We've outgrown so many facilities in the 30 years that I've been part of in the 30 years that I've been part of in the 30 years that I've been part of Kexus Church." That's great. That's what Kexus Church." That's great. That's what Kexus Church." That's great. That's what you're supposed to be doing, right? Uh, you're supposed to be doing, right? Uh, you're supposed to be doing, right? Uh, and when the denomination gets and when the denomination gets and when the denomination gets kingdom-minded, everybody wins. The kingdom-minded, everybody wins. The kingdom-minded, everybody wins. The kingdom advances, and that's the whole kingdom advances, and that's the whole kingdom advances, and that's the whole point. So, if you're a denominational point. So, if you're a denominational point. So, if you're a denominational leader listening, if you're involved in leader listening, if you're involved in leader listening, if you're involved in a denomination, maybe rethink it. This a denomination, maybe rethink it. This a denomination, maybe rethink it. This is your opportunity. Otherwise, you're

is your opportunity. Otherwise, you're is your opportunity. Otherwise, you're going to get mosques, breweries, craft going to get mosques, breweries, craft going to get mosques, breweries, craft shops, restaurants, you know, condos, shops, restaurants, you know, condos, shops, restaurants, you know, condos, but you're not going to fuel the but you're not going to fuel the but you're not going to fuel the kingdom. And I don't you want to be kingdom. And I don't you want to be kingdom. And I don't you want to be fueling the kingdom? I think you want to fueling the kingdom? I think you want to fueling the kingdom? I think you want to be fueling the kingdom. All right, be fueling the kingdom. All right, be fueling the kingdom. All right, that's theme number one that showed up. that's theme number one that showed up. that's theme number one that showed up. Hey, we don't have any choice. It's a Hey, we don't have any choice. It's a Hey, we don't have any choice. It's a nomination. Ah, you got a choice. Okay, nomination. Ah, you got a choice. Okay, nomination. Ah, you got a choice. Okay, theme number two. But the emotional theme number two. But the emotional theme number two. But the emotional attachment to the buildings, right? attachment to the buildings, right? attachment to the buildings, right? Someone else said on Instagram, "These Someone else said on Instagram, "These Someone else said on Instagram, "These people have poured their lives into people have poured their lives into people have poured their lives into these church communities. They painted these church communities. They painted these church communities. They painted every wall and planted every flower bed. every wall and planted every flower bed. every wall and planted every flower bed. There are memories There are memories There are memories here." Okay. Yeah. Let me tell you a here." Okay. Yeah. Let me tell you a here." Okay. Yeah. Let me tell you a very recent story. I was at our church very recent story. I was at our church very recent story. I was at our church literally the Sunday before I recorded literally the Sunday before I recorded literally the Sunday before I recorded this podcast and uh all the tech failed. this podcast and uh all the tech failed. this podcast and uh all the tech failed. I was just attending the nine o'clock I was just attending the nine o'clock I was just attending the nine o'clock service and our lead pastor wasn't in service and our lead pastor wasn't in service and our lead pastor wasn't in the building. He was at another the building. He was at another the building. He was at another location. I kind of looked around. You location. I kind of looked around. You location. I kind of looked around. You know, you have that once you're a know, you have that once you're a know, you have that once you're a pastor, you're always a pastor. And I'm pastor, you're always a pastor. And I'm pastor, you're always a pastor. And I'm like, "Oh crap, there's no backup plan." like, "Oh crap, there's no backup plan." like, "Oh crap, there's no backup plan." And so I was texting some of the staff And so I was texting some of the staff And so I was texting some of the staff and I said, "Listen, if you guys are and I said, "Listen, if you guys are and I said, "Listen, if you guys are stuck, I can I can cover here." So I stuck, I can I can cover here." So I stuck, I can I can cover here." So I covered and I got up and preached a covered and I got up and preached a covered and I got up and preached a spontaneous message for 35 minutes. In spontaneous message for 35 minutes. In spontaneous message for 35 minutes. In the middle of that message, it occurred the middle of that message, it occurred the middle of that message, it occurred to me. It was 30 years ago today that I to me. It was 30 years ago today that I to me. It was 30 years ago today that I preached my first sermon at the churches preached my first sermon at the churches preached my first sermon at the churches that would go on to become Kexus that I that would go on to become Kexus that I that would go on to become Kexus that I went to those three little churches. And went to those three little churches. And went to those three little churches. And it was kind of a cool, poignant, it was kind of a cool, poignant, it was kind of a cool, poignant, emotional moment. And then when I was emotional moment. And then when I was emotional moment. And then when I was looking out over the crowd, I'm like, looking out over the crowd, I'm like, looking out over the crowd, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, Phyllis is here. Jim "Oh my goodness, Phyllis is here. Jim "Oh my goodness, Phyllis is here. Jim and Karine are here. This is great.

and Karine are here. This is great. and Karine are here. This is great. These are some of the original people These are some of the original people These are some of the original people who took me in as a who took me in as a who took me in as a 30-year-old and welcome me." And after 30-year-old and welcome me." And after 30-year-old and welcome me." And after the service, they came up and we hugged the service, they came up and we hugged the service, they came up and we hugged and we cried and I said, Okay. Not expecting this, I said, Okay. Not expecting this, I said, "Aren't you "Aren't you "Aren't you glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith glad? Aren't you glad we had the faith that God was going to do something?" I that God was going to do something?" I that God was going to do something?" I mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis mean, could you imagine? I mean, Phyllis was there. She was part of the church was there. She was part of the church was there. She was part of the church that was like six people. I'm like, that was like six people. I'm like, that was like six people. I'm like, could you imagine that one day? I Our could you imagine that one day? I Our could you imagine that one day? I Our biggest problem right now at Kexus is biggest problem right now at Kexus is biggest problem right now at Kexus is we're out of space. We're putting chairs we're out of space. We're putting chairs we're out of space. We're putting chairs in the aisles, adding services. We're in the aisles, adding services. We're in the aisles, adding services. We're out of space. out of space. out of space. And you know, they're all all in their And you know, they're all all in their And you know, they're all all in their 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And I'm 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And I'm 70s and I'm not 30 anymore. And I'm like, can you believe that God did this? like, can you believe that God did this? like, can you believe that God did this? See that? Yeah. The emotional attachment See that? Yeah. The emotional attachment See that? Yeah. The emotional attachment to the buildings. How about emotional to the buildings. How about emotional to the buildings. How about emotional attachment to the kingdom people? You attachment to the kingdom people? You attachment to the kingdom people? You know, so that's what you got to be clear know, so that's what you got to be clear know, so that's what you got to be clear now, you know, when you actually go now, you know, when you actually go now, you know, when you actually go through that journey. And there were through that journey. And there were through that journey. And there were people who laughed. They were like, "Oh, people who laughed. They were like, "Oh, people who laughed. They were like, "Oh, we like the stained glass windows more we like the stained glass windows more we like the stained glass windows more than we love the mission." Or, you know, than we love the mission." Or, you know, than we love the mission." Or, you know, my father built this and it's not fair.

my father built this and it's not fair. my father built this and it's not fair. They left. And but you know what? They They left. And but you know what? They They left. And but you know what? They had other churches to go to. There were had other churches to go to. There were had other churches to go to. There were lots of dying churches near those lots of dying churches near those lots of dying churches near those original churches that they could go to original churches that they could go to original churches that they could go to and they could get all the tradition and and they could get all the tradition and and they could get all the tradition and everything. But we're on a mission, man. everything. But we're on a mission, man. everything. But we're on a mission, man. I I want to honor the legacy of those I I want to honor the legacy of those I I want to honor the legacy of those who have gone before us. But the best who have gone before us. But the best who have gone before us. But the best way to honor that legacy isn't by way to honor that legacy isn't by way to honor that legacy isn't by watching their work crumble. It's by watching their work crumble. It's by watching their work crumble. It's by ensuring that their investment continues ensuring that their investment continues ensuring that their investment continues to bear fruit for generations to come. to bear fruit for generations to come. to bear fruit for generations to come. The church is alive. And the people who The church is alive. And the people who The church is alive. And the people who are there, there's just a handful of are there, there's just a handful of are there, there's just a handful of them left, right? Unfortunately, they them left, right? Unfortunately, they them left, right? Unfortunately, they were all in their 70s for the most part were all in their 70s for the most part were all in their 70s for the most part when when I came in the mid '9s. So when when I came in the mid '9s. So when when I came in the mid '9s. So they're they're not with us anymore. But they're they're not with us anymore. But they're they're not with us anymore. But I mean they are jubilant that the I mean they are jubilant that the I mean they are jubilant that the mission is alive and well. mission is alive and well. mission is alive and well. Um one viewer Shayla put it this way. Um one viewer Shayla put it this way. Um one viewer Shayla put it this way. She said, "I am so saddened to see so She said, "I am so saddened to see so She said, "I am so saddened to see so many young churches having to meet in a many young churches having to meet in a many young churches having to meet in a strip mall while the gorgeous church strip mall while the gorgeous church strip mall while the gorgeous church down the street is being turned into a down the street is being turned into a down the street is being turned into a bar." And you know what? When I think bar." And you know what? When I think bar." And you know what? When I think about Jim and Crane and Phyllis and Dave about Jim and Crane and Phyllis and Dave about Jim and Crane and Phyllis and Dave and Dave and Paul and Barb and the and Dave and Paul and Barb and the and Dave and Paul and Barb and the others who are still left from that others who are still left from that others who are still left from that original core that embraced me as a original core that embraced me as a original core that embraced me as a 30-year-old seminary student, um they 30-year-old seminary student, um they 30-year-old seminary student, um they they're so happy with that legacy, they're so happy with that legacy, they're so happy with that legacy, right? Do you want to see your sanctuary right? Do you want to see your sanctuary right? Do you want to see your sanctuary become another craft brewery? Because become another craft brewery? Because become another craft brewery? Because that's exactly what's happening. Empty that's exactly what's happening. Empty that's exactly what's happening. Empty buildings don't make disciples. So, buildings don't make disciples. So, buildings don't make disciples. So, those are a few thoughts. I'm going to those are a few thoughts. I'm going to those are a few thoughts. I'm going to get some more comments in just a moment, get some more comments in just a moment, get some more comments in just a moment, but you can see right like this is a but you can see right like this is a but you can see right like this is a really important issue. So, if you are really important issue. So, if you are really important issue. So, if you are sitting in that old empty building and sitting in that old empty building and sitting in that old empty building and maybe this is going to help you rethink maybe this is going to help you rethink maybe this is going to help you rethink making a change, if you're part of a making a change, if you're part of a making a change, if you're part of a denomination, if you hold power, this is denomination, if you hold power, this is denomination, if you hold power, this is time to flip the keys, man. All right.

time to flip the keys, man. All right. time to flip the keys, man. All right. Now, before we get to the next comments, Now, before we get to the next comments, Now, before we get to the next comments, cuz there was lots of critiques of my cuz there was lots of critiques of my cuz there was lots of critiques of my argument and you may have some going argument and you may have some going argument and you may have some going right now. I want to share something right now. I want to share something right now. I want to share something with you. If you want to dive deeper with you. If you want to dive deeper with you. If you want to dive deeper into each episode of the podcast and into each episode of the podcast and into each episode of the podcast and keep this conversation going, got a keep this conversation going, got a keep this conversation going, got a brand new way for you to do it inside brand new way for you to do it inside brand new way for you to do it inside the Art of Leadership Academy. So, I've the Art of Leadership Academy. So, I've the Art of Leadership Academy. So, I've created a private feed for discussions created a private feed for discussions created a private feed for discussions around podcast episodes, leadership around podcast episodes, leadership around podcast episodes, leadership trends, and real-time challenges that trends, and real-time challenges that trends, and real-time challenges that you as leaders are navigating. It's a you as leaders are navigating. It's a you as leaders are navigating. It's a great space to ask questions, to share great space to ask questions, to share great space to ask questions, to share insights, and to learn alongside other insights, and to learn alongside other insights, and to learn alongside other leaders. So, you know, there was a day leaders. So, you know, there was a day leaders. So, you know, there was a day for those of you who've been around for those of you who've been around for those of you who've been around social media where it was good, right? social media where it was good, right? social media where it was good, right? And sort of the secret mission of our And sort of the secret mission of our And sort of the secret mission of our company is we want to be a place where company is we want to be a place where company is we want to be a place where the good people on the internet can the good people on the internet can the good people on the internet can gather, but the internet got really gather, but the internet got really gather, but the internet got really toxic. So what we've done is we've toxic. So what we've done is we've toxic. So what we've done is we've created a private feed that's absolutely created a private feed that's absolutely created a private feed that's absolutely free where I post all these episodes. free where I post all these episodes. free where I post all these episodes. You can chat with other leaders and you You can chat with other leaders and you You can chat with other leaders and you can have intelligent, thoughtful can have intelligent, thoughtful can have intelligent, thoughtful conversation. So the good news is it's conversation. So the good news is it's conversation. So the good news is it's free to join and the best way to get free to join and the best way to get free to join and the best way to get started is by clicking the special started is by clicking the special started is by clicking the special invite link in the description of this invite link in the description of this invite link in the description of this episode or simply going to the art of episode or simply going to the art of episode or simply going to the art of leadershipacademy.com. Love to have you leadershipacademy.com. Love to have you leadershipacademy.com. Love to have you join the conversation for free and we'll join the conversation for free and we'll join the conversation for free and we'll see you inside the academy. Okay, on to see you inside the academy. Okay, on to see you inside the academy. Okay, on to more objections. This one's big, but the more objections. This one's big, but the more objections. This one's big, but the theological differences. Okay. Somebody theological differences. Okay. Somebody theological differences. Okay. Somebody mentioned, "Many mainline churches value mentioned, "Many mainline churches value mentioned, "Many mainline churches value high diversity, inclusion, being a safe high diversity, inclusion, being a safe high diversity, inclusion, being a safe place for the LGBTQ community. Most place for the LGBTQ community. Most place for the LGBTQ community. Most contemporary evangelical churches are contemporary evangelical churches are contemporary evangelical churches are not open and affirming, and it would go not open and affirming, and it would go not open and affirming, and it would go against the beliefs of the older

against the beliefs of the older against the beliefs of the older congregation." Well, number one, let's congregation." Well, number one, let's congregation." Well, number one, let's be honest, it's not that black and be honest, it's not that black and be honest, it's not that black and white. Okay? And second, uh the white. Okay? And second, uh the white. Okay? And second, uh the theological differences can be real. I theological differences can be real. I theological differences can be real. I get it. Maybe your theology is more get it. Maybe your theology is more get it. Maybe your theology is more important than your mission. But here's important than your mission. But here's important than your mission. But here's my question. If your church is dying and my question. If your church is dying and my question. If your church is dying and you're having more deaths than births, you're having more deaths than births, you're having more deaths than births, as this writer admitted, maybe it's time as this writer admitted, maybe it's time as this writer admitted, maybe it's time to ask if your approach is actually to ask if your approach is actually to ask if your approach is actually working, right? If your theology is working, right? If your theology is working, right? If your theology is resulting in a dying resulting in a dying resulting in a dying church, are you really being faithful? church, are you really being faithful? church, are you really being faithful? All right, you'll have to answer. I All right, you'll have to answer. I All right, you'll have to answer. I can't answer that, but you'll have to can't answer that, but you'll have to can't answer that, but you'll have to answer that answer that answer that decision when you stand before God. And decision when you stand before God. And decision when you stand before God. And I'm not saying, you know, you need to I'm not saying, you know, you need to I'm not saying, you know, you need to compromise your core beliefs, but I am compromise your core beliefs, but I am compromise your core beliefs, but I am saying, is your version of Christianity saying, is your version of Christianity saying, is your version of Christianity actually producing disciples? Because actually producing disciples? Because actually producing disciples? Because Jesus said, "We will know them by their Jesus said, "We will know them by their Jesus said, "We will know them by their fruit." And if your church is withering fruit." And if your church is withering fruit." And if your church is withering while others are thriving, that's a while others are thriving, that's a while others are thriving, that's a stewardship problem that somebody will stewardship problem that somebody will stewardship problem that somebody will eventually have to answer for. And I eventually have to answer for. And I eventually have to answer for. And I think this is an opportunity for think this is an opportunity for think this is an opportunity for mainline churches and other churches if mainline churches and other churches if mainline churches and other churches if your theology has really drifted from your theology has really drifted from your theology has really drifted from historic Christianity. And I know historic Christianity. And I know historic Christianity. And I know there's a lot of room for uh you know there's a lot of room for uh you know there's a lot of room for uh you know disagreement and different thoughts disagreement and different thoughts disagreement and different thoughts about particular doctrines, but the about particular doctrines, but the about particular doctrines, but the kingdom that I see moving in the in the kingdom that I see moving in the in the kingdom that I see moving in the in the future doesn't echo the world. It future doesn't echo the world. It future doesn't echo the world. It doesn't echo the world on the right. It doesn't echo the world on the right. It doesn't echo the world on the right. It doesn't echo the world on the left. It's doesn't echo the world on the left. It's doesn't echo the world on the left. It's an alternate kingdom. And I think what an alternate kingdom. And I think what an alternate kingdom. And I think what you see Gen Z really hungry for is a is you see Gen Z really hungry for is a is you see Gen Z really hungry for is a is is an alt kingdom, a kingdom that Jesus is an alt kingdom, a kingdom that Jesus is an alt kingdom, a kingdom that Jesus brought in. So it's not going to sound brought in. So it's not going to sound brought in. So it's not going to sound like the left. It's not going to sound like the left. It's not going to sound like the left. It's not going to sound like the right. It's going to sound

like the right. It's going to sound like the right. It's going to sound different. And if you look at most different. And if you look at most different. And if you look at most growing churches, they are not exactly growing churches, they are not exactly growing churches, they are not exactly like the left. They're not exactly like like the left. They're not exactly like like the left. They're not exactly like the right. They are an alt kingdom, an the right. They are an alt kingdom, an the right. They are an alt kingdom, an alternative kingdom. And I think that's alternative kingdom. And I think that's alternative kingdom. And I think that's where the future is in the church. Okay. where the future is in the church. Okay. where the future is in the church. Okay. Theme number four, and this is about Theme number four, and this is about Theme number four, and this is about older pastors. I got picked on a lot older pastors. I got picked on a lot older pastors. I got picked on a lot when I when I commented on this. And one when I when I commented on this. And one when I when I commented on this. And one of the themes was let older pastors of the themes was let older pastors of the themes was let older pastors fulfill their calling. So Greg on fulfill their calling. So Greg on fulfill their calling. So Greg on YouTube objected and this is what he YouTube objected and this is what he YouTube objected and this is what he wrote. He said, "Hey, asking pastors to wrote. He said, "Hey, asking pastors to wrote. He said, "Hey, asking pastors to retire early is unbiblical. Using this retire early is unbiblical. Using this retire early is unbiblical. Using this logic, Moses would not have been called logic, Moses would not have been called logic, Moses would not have been called to lead the people out of Egypt. Greg, to lead the people out of Egypt. Greg, to lead the people out of Egypt. Greg, totally hear you on that. Moses was totally hear you on that. Moses was totally hear you on that. Moses was really, really strong into his 80s and really, really strong into his 80s and really, really strong into his 80s and beyond. But your logic doesn't compute. beyond. But your logic doesn't compute. beyond. But your logic doesn't compute. Okay. Moses was described as as strong Okay. Moses was described as as strong Okay. Moses was described as as strong as a young man when he died and he was as a young man when he died and he was as a young man when he died and he was leading a growing movement. Now, if you leading a growing movement. Now, if you leading a growing movement. Now, if you look at dying look at dying look at dying churches, that isn't the case. Okay? The churches, that isn't the case. Okay? The churches, that isn't the case. Okay? The pastors who are often leading those pastors who are often leading those pastors who are often leading those churches, the vitality left them a long churches, the vitality left them a long churches, the vitality left them a long time ago. Age isn't the issue. Vitality time ago. Age isn't the issue. Vitality time ago. Age isn't the issue. Vitality is. All right? There are some pastors in is. All right? There are some pastors in is. All right? There are some pastors in their 70s who have more spit and vinegar their 70s who have more spit and vinegar their 70s who have more spit and vinegar than a pastor in his or her 30s. Okay?

than a pastor in his or her 30s. Okay? than a pastor in his or her 30s. Okay? Those people are great. And if their Those people are great. And if their Those people are great. And if their church is growing, let them at it. I'm church is growing, let them at it. I'm church is growing, let them at it. I'm talking about dying churches here. And talking about dying churches here. And talking about dying churches here. And often when you get into a dying church, often when you get into a dying church, often when you get into a dying church, here's the reality. The pastor has been here's the reality. The pastor has been here's the reality. The pastor has been in the saddle too long. Maybe he wished in the saddle too long. Maybe he wished in the saddle too long. Maybe he wished he could have gotten out 10 years ago, he could have gotten out 10 years ago, he could have gotten out 10 years ago, but he couldn't afford it or he didn't but he couldn't afford it or he didn't but he couldn't afford it or he didn't know how. And when you see the air know how. And when you see the air know how. And when you see the air coming out of the balloon, that's very coming out of the balloon, that's very coming out of the balloon, that's very demotivating. So you look at Moses, you demotivating. So you look at Moses, you demotivating. So you look at Moses, you look at Joshua, you look at others, they look at Joshua, you look at others, they look at Joshua, you look at others, they they died with vitality, but they died they died with vitality, but they died they died with vitality, but they died leading a growing movement. If that's leading a growing movement. If that's leading a growing movement. If that's you, awesome. You're not the subject of you, awesome. You're not the subject of you, awesome. You're not the subject of what we're talking about. But for most what we're talking about. But for most what we're talking about. But for most people, it's not. It's like the fire people, it's not. It's like the fire people, it's not. It's like the fire went out of the belly a long time ago. went out of the belly a long time ago. went out of the belly a long time ago. Now, we had some encouraging comments, Now, we had some encouraging comments, Now, we had some encouraging comments, too. Michael said this. He said, "I was too. Michael said this. He said, "I was too. Michael said this. He said, "I was in a dying church that merged with a in a dying church that merged with a in a dying church that merged with a growing church with young families. The growing church with young families. The growing church with young families. The pastor from the dying church had over 50 pastor from the dying church had over 50 pastor from the dying church had over 50 plus years of ministry experience. I plus years of ministry experience. I plus years of ministry experience. I heard him say that the years after the heard him say that the years after the heard him say that the years after the merger with the best years of his life." merger with the best years of his life." merger with the best years of his life." Oh, and the two churches with 100 people Oh, and the two churches with 100 people Oh, and the two churches with 100 people each grew to a church of 500 in a needy each grew to a church of 500 in a needy each grew to a church of 500 in a needy community. Now, there's a vision. Okay, community. Now, there's a vision. Okay, community. Now, there's a vision. Okay, first of all, that lead pastor has first of all, that lead pastor has first of all, that lead pastor has something to do that is helpful.

something to do that is helpful. something to do that is helpful. Secondly, he kind of said, and you know, Secondly, he kind of said, and you know, Secondly, he kind of said, and you know, I did this a decade ago when I turned 50 I did this a decade ago when I turned 50 I did this a decade ago when I turned 50 where I handed the keys over to a where I handed the keys over to a where I handed the keys over to a younger leader for a variety of reasons, younger leader for a variety of reasons, younger leader for a variety of reasons, but what am I doing now? I'm cheering but what am I doing now? I'm cheering but what am I doing now? I'm cheering them on. I'm helping. I'm doing that. them on. I'm helping. I'm doing that. them on. I'm helping. I'm doing that. And that's what that lead pastor did in And that's what that lead pastor did in And that's what that lead pastor did in that case. That's amazing. This is what that case. That's amazing. This is what that case. That's amazing. This is what kingdom leadership looks like. The kingdom leadership looks like. The kingdom leadership looks like. The pastor didn't cling to control. He pastor didn't cling to control. He pastor didn't cling to control. He embraced a new chapter and found it was embraced a new chapter and found it was embraced a new chapter and found it was the most fruitful season of his entire the most fruitful season of his entire the most fruitful season of his entire ministry. That's not retirement. That's ministry. That's not retirement. That's ministry. That's not retirement. That's revival. And Arthur Brooks would say, revival. And Arthur Brooks would say, revival. And Arthur Brooks would say, he's been a guest on this podcast. Maybe he's been a guest on this podcast. Maybe he's been a guest on this podcast. Maybe you've read from strength to strength. you've read from strength to strength. you've read from strength to strength. When you get into your 60s,7s, and 80s, When you get into your 60s,7s, and 80s, When you get into your 60s,7s, and 80s, that's your job. You're the sage. You're that's your job. You're the sage. You're that's your job. You're the sage. You're the cheerleader. You're using your years the cheerleader. You're using your years the cheerleader. You're using your years of wisdom to support the next of wisdom to support the next of wisdom to support the next generation. You're not there to be the generation. You're not there to be the generation. You're not there to be the star of the show anymore, clinging to star of the show anymore, clinging to star of the show anymore, clinging to power. Okay. Final theme that came up in power. Okay. Final theme that came up in power. Okay. Final theme that came up in the comments, but the fear of failure. the comments, but the fear of failure. the comments, but the fear of failure. Steve nailed it. He said, "I think it's Steve nailed it. He said, "I think it's Steve nailed it. He said, "I think it's about the fear of feeling like about the fear of feeling like about the fear of feeling like failures." This is, in my opinion, the failures." This is, in my opinion, the failures." This is, in my opinion, the basic rejection of contemporary worship basic rejection of contemporary worship basic rejection of contemporary worship styles and retreating into the past styles and retreating into the past styles and retreating into the past glory days. In other words, they don't glory days. In other words, they don't glory days. In other words, they don't know what to do, right? People are know what to do, right? People are know what to do, right? People are afraid. They're like, "Oh, we could afraid. They're like, "Oh, we could afraid. They're like, "Oh, we could reinvent ourselves. We tried. We reinvent ourselves. We tried. We reinvent ourselves. We tried. We introduced some new music and that kind introduced some new music and that kind introduced some new music and that kind of thing, but it didn't really work."

of thing, but it didn't really work." of thing, but it didn't really work." Look, fear of failure is a prison and Look, fear of failure is a prison and Look, fear of failure is a prison and it's keeping countless churches stuck in it's keeping countless churches stuck in it's keeping countless churches stuck in decline when they could be part of decline when they could be part of decline when they could be part of something incredible. Erica shared this. something incredible. Erica shared this. something incredible. Erica shared this. She said, "We did a combined service and She said, "We did a combined service and She said, "We did a combined service and afterwards their people said they didn't afterwards their people said they didn't afterwards their people said they didn't like that there were too many people in like that there were too many people in like that there were too many people in their church, so they didn't want to their church, so they didn't want to their church, so they didn't want to merge." Okay, I want to take you back to merge." Okay, I want to take you back to merge." Okay, I want to take you back to a moment probably two years into uh when a moment probably two years into uh when a moment probably two years into uh when I started out. some like 32 and our I started out. some like 32 and our I started out. some like 32 and our little church one of the I did three little church one of the I did three little church one of the I did three churches for a few years until we all churches for a few years until we all churches for a few years until we all merged and eventually became Kexus but merged and eventually became Kexus but merged and eventually became Kexus but there were maybe after a no maybe it was there were maybe after a no maybe it was there were maybe after a no maybe it was about a year okay there were maybe 40 about a year okay there were maybe 40 about a year okay there were maybe 40 people and we had grown from 14 to 40 people and we had grown from 14 to 40 people and we had grown from 14 to 40 and somebody came up to me and they said and somebody came up to me and they said and somebody came up to me and they said you know I don't like our church getting you know I don't like our church getting you know I don't like our church getting bigger I'm like oh tell me more first of bigger I'm like oh tell me more first of bigger I'm like oh tell me more first of all there's 40 people okay it's not that all there's 40 people okay it's not that all there's 40 people okay it's not that big I don't like our church getting big I don't like our church getting big I don't like our church getting bigger they liked it better when it was bigger they liked it better when it was bigger they liked it better when it was 14 I'm like okay tell me why she says 14 I'm like okay tell me why she says 14 I'm like okay tell me why she says well we don't we don't know everybody well we don't we don't know everybody well we don't we don't know everybody body. Well, I knew everybody. It's not body. Well, I knew everybody. It's not body. Well, I knew everybody. It's not that hard to know 40 people. And um and that hard to know 40 people. And um and that hard to know 40 people. And um and I knew that there was somebody that this I knew that there was somebody that this I knew that there was somebody that this person didn't know who had been person didn't know who had been person didn't know who had been attending the church for years. So I I I attending the church for years. So I I I attending the church for years. So I I I said, "Turn around." I said, "You see said, "Turn around." I said, "You see said, "Turn around." I said, "You see her three rows back? Like who what's her her three rows back? Like who what's her her three rows back? Like who what's her name? She's been part of this church for name? She's been part of this church for name? She's been part of this church for 15 years." And the guy said, "I don't 15 years." And the guy said, "I don't 15 years." And the guy said, "I don't know." And I said, "See, you didn't know know." And I said, "See, you didn't know know." And I said, "See, you didn't know all the people by name when there were all the people by name when there were all the people by name when there were 14 people. Now you don't know when 14 people. Now you don't know when 14 people. Now you don't know when there's 40." And you know, back to that there's 40." And you know, back to that there's 40." And you know, back to that story from last Sunday, uh, when I was story from last Sunday, uh, when I was story from last Sunday, uh, when I was standing there with three of the standing there with three of the standing there with three of the originals, we didn't know 70% of the originals, we didn't know 70% of the originals, we didn't know 70% of the people in the room. But that's not the

people in the room. But that's not the people in the room. But that's not the point, okay? When you're thinking about point, okay? When you're thinking about point, okay? When you're thinking about the future, the methods change. The the future, the methods change. The the future, the methods change. The mission stays the same. Your church is mission stays the same. Your church is mission stays the same. Your church is part of the church. We're in this part of the church. We're in this part of the church. We're in this together, and we need to start acting together, and we need to start acting together, and we need to start acting like it. So, if you're in a dying like it. So, if you're in a dying like it. So, if you're in a dying church, here's my final challenge to church, here's my final challenge to church, here's my final challenge to you. I challenge you to ask this you. I challenge you to ask this you. I challenge you to ask this question. Is preserving your comfort question. Is preserving your comfort question. Is preserving your comfort more important than advancing God's more important than advancing God's more important than advancing God's kingdom? That's the question to ask, kingdom? That's the question to ask, kingdom? That's the question to ask, right? Is it all about your methodology right? Is it all about your methodology right? Is it all about your methodology or your tradition or your legacy? Or is or your tradition or your legacy? Or is or your tradition or your legacy? Or is it really about God? We're just in a it really about God? We're just in a it really about God? We're just in a moment. We're going to yield this to moment. We're going to yield this to moment. We're going to yield this to you. We're going to give this to you. you. We're going to give this to you. you. We're going to give this to you. This is about your kingdom. This isn't This is about your kingdom. This isn't This is about your kingdom. This isn't about me. Right? Ask yourself, what is a about me. Right? Ask yourself, what is a about me. Right? Ask yourself, what is a legacy you truly want to leave? Now, if legacy you truly want to leave? Now, if legacy you truly want to leave? Now, if you're in a growing church, it's a you're in a growing church, it's a you're in a growing church, it's a different question. Stop waiting for different question. Stop waiting for different question. Stop waiting for permission. start the conversation that permission. start the conversation that permission. start the conversation that could revitalize your community. Right? could revitalize your community. Right? could revitalize your community. Right? You might have to have 10 conversations You might have to have 10 conversations You might have to have 10 conversations with churches to have one lead. But I with churches to have one lead. But I with churches to have one lead. But I think it's time for us to change the think it's time for us to change the think it's time for us to change the dialogue in the church. And that's why dialogue in the church. And that's why dialogue in the church. And that's why I'm doing this episode. That's why I'm I'm doing this episode. That's why I'm I'm doing this episode. That's why I'm going through all the objections trying going through all the objections trying going through all the objections trying to, you know, get there and give you to, you know, get there and give you to, you know, get there and give you some some reasons why this is a really some some reasons why this is a really some some reasons why this is a really good idea on both sides. You know, for good idea on both sides. You know, for good idea on both sides. You know, for dying churches, there's some really dying churches, there's some really dying churches, there's some really compelling reasons why you should be compelling reasons why you should be compelling reasons why you should be flipping over the keys. for growing flipping over the keys. for growing flipping over the keys. for growing churches. There's a really compelling churches. There's a really compelling churches. There's a really compelling reason why you should be getting the reason why you should be getting the reason why you should be getting the keys. This is about the church, not just keys. This is about the church, not just keys. This is about the church, not just your church. If you're a denominational your church. If you're a denominational your church. If you're a denominational leader with the power to influence these leader with the power to influence these leader with the power to influence these decisions, I'm calling on you to decisions, I'm calling on you to decisions, I'm calling on you to prophetic leadership. Be the one who prophetic leadership. Be the one who prophetic leadership. Be the one who breaks the gridlock, who stands up in

breaks the gridlock, who stands up in breaks the gridlock, who stands up in the committee meeting and says, you know the committee meeting and says, you know the committee meeting and says, you know what? There's got to be a different way. what? There's got to be a different way. what? There's got to be a different way. The kingdom of God is not about empty The kingdom of God is not about empty The kingdom of God is not about empty buildings. It's about changed lives. And buildings. It's about changed lives. And buildings. It's about changed lives. And we as a church have to start acting like we as a church have to start acting like we as a church have to start acting like we believe it. So, hope you enjoyed this we believe it. So, hope you enjoyed this we believe it. So, hope you enjoyed this conversation. And a quick reminder, if conversation. And a quick reminder, if conversation. And a quick reminder, if you want more conversation, sure, you you want more conversation, sure, you you want more conversation, sure, you can jump on social, you can jump on can jump on social, you can jump on can jump on social, you can jump on YouTube, you can leave a comment on YouTube, you can leave a comment on YouTube, you can leave a comment on Spotify or wherever, but I've also set Spotify or wherever, but I've also set Spotify or wherever, but I've also set up this custom community in the art of up this custom community in the art of up this custom community in the art of leadership academy. You can create a leadership academy. You can create a leadership academy. You can create a free account right now. Get started by free account right now. Get started by free account right now. Get started by clicking the special invite link in the clicking the special invite link in the clicking the special invite link in the description of this episode or by description of this episode or by description of this episode or by visiting the art of visiting the art of visiting the art of leadershipacademy.com and I would love leadershipacademy.com and I would love leadershipacademy.com and I would love to get your conversation. The goal there to get your conversation. The goal there to get your conversation. The goal there is you're not only going to get the show is you're not only going to get the show is you're not only going to get the show notes, but we're going to have some notes, but we're going to have some notes, but we're going to have some really intelligent, thoughtful really intelligent, thoughtful really intelligent, thoughtful conversation with like-minded leaders. conversation with like-minded leaders. conversation with like-minded leaders. We want thousands of you in there. So, We want thousands of you in there. So, We want thousands of you in there. So, we'll see you inside the free tier of we'll see you inside the free tier of we'll see you inside the free tier of the academy. Next episode, we got Derwin the academy. Next episode, we got Derwin the academy. Next episode, we got Derwin Gray coming up. Also coming up, David Gray coming up. Also coming up, David Gray coming up. Also coming up, David Brooks, uh, Max Luc, Rick Warren, and a Brooks, uh, Max Luc, Rick Warren, and a Brooks, uh, Max Luc, Rick Warren, and a whole lot more. Thanks for listening, whole lot more. Thanks for listening, whole lot more. Thanks for listening, and if this conversation was helpful, and if this conversation was helpful, and if this conversation was helpful, leave a rating or a comment wherever leave a rating or a comment wherever leave a rating or a comment wherever you're listening. And don't forget to you're listening. And don't forget to you're listening. And don't forget to share it with a friend. Maybe send it share it with a friend. Maybe send it share it with a friend. Maybe send it along to that denominational leader or along to that denominational leader or along to that denominational leader or or that friend who's looking for a or that friend who's looking for a or that friend who's looking for a building. And we'll catch you next time.

building. And we'll catch you next time. building. And we'll catch you next time. I'd also love for you to know what you I'd also love for you to know what you I'd also love for you to know what you think about our experimental formats think about our experimental formats think about our experimental formats this year. It's been a joy to serve you. this year. It's been a joy to serve you. this year. It's been a joy to serve you. I love doing this. Thank you so much. I love doing this. Thank you so much. I love doing this. Thank you so much. And we'll catch you next time. I hope And we'll catch you next time. I hope And we'll catch you next time. I hope our conversation today has helped you our conversation today has helped you our conversation today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.