The Secret Behind Memorable Sermons Revealed with Dan Heath

Oh, I got a hot take for you here. Oh, I got a hot take for you here. >> Great. Let's go. >> Great. Let's go. >> Great. Let's go. >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the bad idea is that bad idea is that bad idea is that the essence of what leaders do is solve the essence of what leaders do is solve the essence of what leaders do is solve problems. problems. problems. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And and I think that that's wrong. >> And and I think that that's wrong. >> And and I think that that's wrong. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Today we're going to leadership podcast. Today we're going to leadership podcast. Today we're going to talk about the surprising traits of talk about the surprising traits of talk about the surprising traits of sticky sermons and why focusing on the sticky sermons and why focusing on the sticky sermons and why focusing on the problem is the wrong approach. I've got problem is the wrong approach. I've got problem is the wrong approach. I've got Dan Heath on the podcast. You've Dan Heath on the podcast. You've Dan Heath on the podcast. You've probably read his books. He's a probably read his books. He's a probably read his books. He's a fascinating guest. I wanted to get for a fascinating guest. I wanted to get for a fascinating guest. I wanted to get for a long time. Now, a quick note for those long time. Now, a quick note for those long time. Now, a quick note for those of you watching on YouTube and Spotify. of you watching on YouTube and Spotify. of you watching on YouTube and Spotify. Interview is a little bit different Interview is a little bit different Interview is a little bit different because we don't have video. I mean, because we don't have video. I mean, because we don't have video. I mean, you're watching me on video, but soon you're watching me on video, but soon you're watching me on video, but soon it's going to flip to audio. Well worth it's going to flip to audio. Well worth it's going to flip to audio. Well worth taking the time for. I hope you enjoy taking the time for. I hope you enjoy taking the time for. I hope you enjoy it. And wherever you're watching, be it. And wherever you're watching, be it. And wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, like, follow, leave a sure to subscribe, like, follow, leave a sure to subscribe, like, follow, leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, a comment to join the conversation. Now, a comment to join the conversation. Now, a word from today's partners, and then word from today's partners, and then word from today's partners, and then we'll dive right into my conversation we'll dive right into my conversation we'll dive right into my conversation with Dan Heath. Today's episode is with Dan Heath. Today's episode is with Dan Heath. Today's episode is brought to you by the Preaching Cheat brought to you by the Preaching Cheat brought to you by the Preaching Cheat Sheet. So preachers, I'd love to know if Sheet. So preachers, I'd love to know if Sheet. So preachers, I'd love to know if you can relate to this. Okay, it's you can relate to this. Okay, it's you can relate to this. Okay, it's Thursday night. Sunday's message still Thursday night. Sunday's message still Thursday night. Sunday's message still isn't coming together. I mean, you could isn't coming together. I mean, you could isn't coming together. I mean, you could even start early and it's not quite even start early and it's not quite even start early and it's not quite right. Right? The pressure is building.

right. Right? The pressure is building. right. Right? The pressure is building. It's hard to decide what to add, what to It's hard to decide what to add, what to It's hard to decide what to add, what to cut, how to tie everything together. You cut, how to tie everything together. You cut, how to tie everything together. You want some family time, and you know, by want some family time, and you know, by want some family time, and you know, by the time Saturday rolls around, you're the time Saturday rolls around, you're the time Saturday rolls around, you're just going to have to call it as it is. just going to have to call it as it is. just going to have to call it as it is. Even if you're secondguessing some of Even if you're secondguessing some of Even if you're secondguessing some of your message, well, that's where my your message, well, that's where my your message, well, that's where my 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. It's your quick check guide to ensure It's your quick check guide to ensure It's your quick check guide to ensure you've got an engaging, clear, and you've got an engaging, clear, and you've got an engaging, clear, and memorable sermon ready for Sunday memorable sermon ready for Sunday memorable sermon ready for Sunday morning. From your opening line to morning. From your opening line to morning. From your opening line to landing the plane at the end of your landing the plane at the end of your landing the plane at the end of your sermon and every step in between, you sermon and every step in between, you sermon and every step in between, you can use the 10 steps during sermon prep can use the 10 steps during sermon prep can use the 10 steps during sermon prep or even to start or to finish your or even to start or to finish your or even to start or to finish your message, whatever you want, to make sure message, whatever you want, to make sure message, whatever you want, to make sure you are ready to deliver an impactful you are ready to deliver an impactful you are ready to deliver an impactful message every single time you preach. message every single time you preach. message every single time you preach. And the big news is I've just released a And the big news is I've just released a And the big news is I've just released a brand new version of the cheat sheet. brand new version of the cheat sheet. brand new version of the cheat sheet. So, if you've downloaded it before, be So, if you've downloaded it before, be So, if you've downloaded it before, be sure to get the new version in your sure to get the new version in your sure to get the new version in your hands. We got a lot of feedback. I hands. We got a lot of feedback. I hands. We got a lot of feedback. I improved it. Still, basically, the bones improved it. Still, basically, the bones improved it. Still, basically, the bones are the same, but it's going to be even are the same, but it's going to be even are the same, but it's going to be even better. Okay? You can download your copy better. Okay? You can download your copy better. Okay? You can download your copy for free by clicking the link in the for free by clicking the link in the for free by clicking the link in the description of this episode or by description of this episode or by description of this episode or by visiting preachingsheet.com.

visiting preachingsheet.com. visiting preachingsheet.com. Again, that's preaching cheat.com to Again, that's preaching cheat.com to Again, that's preaching cheat.com to download your copy for free or simply download your copy for free or simply download your copy for free or simply click the link in the episode of this click the link in the episode of this click the link in the episode of this description wherever you're listening. description wherever you're listening. description wherever you're listening. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. So, it's a new season of Subsplash. So, it's a new season of Subsplash. So, it's a new season of ministry. Imagine your church buzzing ministry. Imagine your church buzzing ministry. Imagine your church buzzing with new faces and vibrant energy every with new faces and vibrant energy every with new faces and vibrant energy every Sunday and you see them and you welcome Sunday and you see them and you welcome Sunday and you see them and you welcome them and that's amazing, right? But are them and that's amazing, right? But are them and that's amazing, right? But are those first-time visitors finding a those first-time visitors finding a those first-time visitors finding a clear path forward or are they slipping clear path forward or are they slipping clear path forward or are they slipping through the cracks, right? Well, through the cracks, right? Well, through the cracks, right? Well, Subsplash can help your church mobilize Subsplash can help your church mobilize Subsplash can help your church mobilize that excitement and momentum into next that excitement and momentum into next that excitement and momentum into next steps that get people actually connected steps that get people actually connected steps that get people actually connected into the life of your church. With into the life of your church. With into the life of your church. With Subsplash Tap, guests can instantly take Subsplash Tap, guests can instantly take Subsplash Tap, guests can instantly take their next step, whether that's filling their next step, whether that's filling their next step, whether that's filling out a connect card, joining a small out a connect card, joining a small out a connect card, joining a small group, or signing up for events with group, or signing up for events with group, or signing up for events with just a tap of their phone. Each tap just a tap of their phone. Each tap just a tap of their phone. Each tap brings them closer to your church brings them closer to your church brings them closer to your church community. It's quick, it's intuitive, community. It's quick, it's intuitive, community. It's quick, it's intuitive, and it's integrated with Subsplash's and it's integrated with Subsplash's and it's integrated with Subsplash's engagement platform. Don't miss this engagement platform. Don't miss this engagement platform. Don't miss this opportunity to foster connection and opportunity to foster connection and opportunity to foster connection and growth in a brand new season of growth in a brand new season of growth in a brand new season of ministry. So, head on over to ministry. So, head on over to ministry. So, head on over to subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry to save $500 when you sign up. That's to save $500 when you sign up. That's to save $500 when you sign up. That's subsplash.com/carry.

subsplash.com/carry. subsplash.com/carry. Dan, I have been looking forward to Dan, I have been looking forward to Dan, I have been looking forward to having you on the podcast. Welcome. having you on the podcast. Welcome. having you on the podcast. Welcome. Thanks, Carrie. What a treat to be here. Thanks, Carrie. What a treat to be here. Thanks, Carrie. What a treat to be here. >> Yeah, you and I have been talking for 20 >> Yeah, you and I have been talking for 20 >> Yeah, you and I have been talking for 20 minutes and forgot to hit record. So, minutes and forgot to hit record. So, minutes and forgot to hit record. So, you know, our first time meeting and you know, our first time meeting and you know, our first time meeting and there was just so much to talk about there was just so much to talk about there was just so much to talk about already. One of the questions I had for already. One of the questions I had for already. One of the questions I had for you is, you know, you started writing you is, you know, you started writing you is, you know, you started writing pretty young, but what is the pre was pretty young, but what is the pre was pretty young, but what is the pre was what was your first book? Was it Made to what was your first book? Was it Made to what was your first book? Was it Made to Stick? Stick? Stick? >> First book was made to stick that I >> First book was made to stick that I >> First book was made to stick that I co-wrote with my brother Chip. It came co-wrote with my brother Chip. It came co-wrote with my brother Chip. It came out in 2007. out in 2007. out in 2007. >> You should have, you know, a lot of >> You should have, you know, a lot of >> You should have, you know, a lot of people would have quit there because how people would have quit there because how people would have quit there because how often do you get a book that is that often do you get a book that is that often do you get a book that is that good that tracks so well as your debut good that tracks so well as your debut good that tracks so well as your debut book? We I don't know what wormhole in book? We I don't know what wormhole in book? We I don't know what wormhole in the universe we went through with that the universe we went through with that the universe we went through with that book, but I mean we're first- time book, but I mean we're first- time book, but I mean we're first- time authors. We didn't know anything about authors. We didn't know anything about authors. We didn't know anything about anything. And then uh you know, our our anything. And then uh you know, our our anything. And then uh you know, our our great publicist Mark Forier somehow in great publicist Mark Forier somehow in great publicist Mark Forier somehow in the runup to the launch, we were in Time the runup to the launch, we were in Time the runup to the launch, we were in Time magazine and US News and World Report magazine and US News and World Report magazine and US News and World Report and the day of the launch, we're on the and the day of the launch, we're on the and the day of the launch, we're on the Today Show, and Chip and I the whole Today Show, and Chip and I the whole Today Show, and Chip and I the whole time are just kind of like shaking our time are just kind of like shaking our time are just kind of like shaking our heads at each. I mean, we figured we heads at each. I mean, we figured we heads at each. I mean, we figured we were going to sell 25 copies to our were going to sell 25 copies to our were going to sell 25 copies to our relatives and then go back to our normal relatives and then go back to our normal relatives and then go back to our normal lives. Uh, and and so it was just this lives. Uh, and and so it was just this lives. Uh, and and so it was just this kind of magical stroke of luck.

kind of magical stroke of luck. kind of magical stroke of luck. >> So, you kind of knew that this isn't >> So, you kind of knew that this isn't >> So, you kind of knew that this isn't normal for most debut authors to be on normal for most debut authors to be on normal for most debut authors to be on the Today Show in the New York Times. the Today Show in the New York Times. the Today Show in the New York Times. >> Yeah, we were definitely we were >> Yeah, we were definitely we were >> Yeah, we were definitely we were definitely aware of the improbability of definitely aware of the improbability of definitely aware of the improbability of what was happening. Yeah. what was happening. Yeah. what was happening. Yeah. >> Oh, that's awesome, man. Uh, what a what >> Oh, that's awesome, man. Uh, what a what >> Oh, that's awesome, man. Uh, what a what a treat, though. And I was telling you a treat, though. And I was telling you a treat, though. And I was telling you earlier like you know you're on the that earlier like you know you're on the that earlier like you know you're on the that book put you on the map with church book put you on the map with church book put you on the map with church leaders. Every church leader I've been leaders. Every church leader I've been leaders. Every church leader I've been around long enough to know in 2006 or around long enough to know in 2006 or around long enough to know in 2006 or whenever that was every church leader whenever that was every church leader whenever that was every church leader was have you read have you read? Have was have you read have you read? Have was have you read have you read? Have you read? Like it had a lot of as well. you read? Like it had a lot of as well. you read? Like it had a lot of as well. >> It I mean it was on our mind. I remember >> It I mean it was on our mind. I remember >> It I mean it was on our mind. I remember clearly when we were writing the book, clearly when we were writing the book, clearly when we were writing the book, it's like we we found it useful to keep it's like we we found it useful to keep it's like we we found it useful to keep just certain personas in mind and and a just certain personas in mind and and a just certain personas in mind and and a couple of them were, you know, an couple of them were, you know, an couple of them were, you know, an entrepreneur pitching their enterprise entrepreneur pitching their enterprise entrepreneur pitching their enterprise and a a high school science teacher, you and a a high school science teacher, you and a a high school science teacher, you know, preparing lessons and a a minister know, preparing lessons and a a minister know, preparing lessons and a a minister preparing sermons. It's like there there preparing sermons. It's like there there preparing sermons. It's like there there are very identifiable people who have to are very identifiable people who have to are very identifiable people who have to make their ideas stick and it it really make their ideas stick and it it really make their ideas stick and it it really matters whether they succeed. And it's matters whether they succeed. And it's matters whether they succeed. And it's not just one time, it's it's a lot of not just one time, it's it's a lot of not just one time, it's it's a lot of times. And so yeah, so I'm I'm glad it times. And so yeah, so I'm I'm glad it times. And so yeah, so I'm I'm glad it connected.

connected. connected. >> All right, this is random question >> All right, this is random question >> All right, this is random question opening. Uh, who thought of the duct opening. Uh, who thought of the duct opening. Uh, who thought of the duct tape on the cover? tape on the cover? tape on the cover? >> Okay, there there is actually a story >> Okay, there there is actually a story >> Okay, there there is actually a story here. So both of us were very pro duct here. So both of us were very pro duct here. So both of us were very pro duct tape. So the the backstory is if you're tape. So the the backstory is if you're tape. So the the backstory is if you're a first-time author, you basically have a first-time author, you basically have a first-time author, you basically have no say and no uh power over anything. no say and no uh power over anything. no say and no uh power over anything. And And And >> yeah, basically here's your cover. >> yeah, basically here's your cover. >> yeah, basically here's your cover. Here's the final edit. Quiet. Be Here's the final edit. Quiet. Be Here's the final edit. Quiet. Be grateful it's grateful it's grateful it's >> published. Exactly. Suck it up. Be >> published. Exactly. Suck it up. Be >> published. Exactly. Suck it up. Be happy. And uh and so we started they'll happy. And uh and so we started they'll happy. And uh and so we started they'll send you some cover designs from the send you some cover designs from the send you some cover designs from the publisher and and they were sending us publisher and and they were sending us publisher and and they were sending us things with uh you know scotch tape and things with uh you know scotch tape and things with uh you know scotch tape and a lot of them had post-it notes. I mean a lot of them had post-it notes. I mean a lot of them had post-it notes. I mean a a truly disturbing number had post-it a a truly disturbing number had post-it a a truly disturbing number had post-it notes on them and Chip and I were like notes on them and Chip and I were like notes on them and Chip and I were like no no no this isn't the whole point of a no no no this isn't the whole point of a no no no this isn't the whole point of a post-it note is it's not that sticky. post-it note is it's not that sticky. post-it note is it's not that sticky. Like that's why you can move it around Like that's why you can move it around Like that's why you can move it around without any residue. Um, and so we knew without any residue. Um, and so we knew without any residue. Um, and so we knew duct tape was like exactly the right duct tape was like exactly the right duct tape was like exactly the right spirit because it's very functional. spirit because it's very functional. spirit because it's very functional. It's very practical, but there's also It's very practical, but there's also It's very practical, but there's also kind of this silly comic overtone to it.

kind of this silly comic overtone to it. kind of this silly comic overtone to it. I mean, the book is supposed to be I mean, the book is supposed to be I mean, the book is supposed to be practical, but it's also not like taking practical, but it's also not like taking practical, but it's also not like taking medicine. I mean, we had some fun with medicine. I mean, we had some fun with medicine. I mean, we had some fun with it. And so, we're like, has to be duct it. And so, we're like, has to be duct it. And so, we're like, has to be duct tail, but of course, we can't, you know, tail, but of course, we can't, you know, tail, but of course, we can't, you know, we can't get our way. And so, my brother we can't get our way. And so, my brother we can't get our way. And so, my brother had this um this ingenious idea. So, the had this um this ingenious idea. So, the had this um this ingenious idea. So, the the cover, just for listeners not the cover, just for listeners not the cover, just for listeners not familiar, it has this like bright daylow familiar, it has this like bright daylow familiar, it has this like bright daylow orange color and then a strip of what orange color and then a strip of what orange color and then a strip of what looks like actual duct tape. I still looks like actual duct tape. I still looks like actual duct tape. I still don't know how they do this with the don't know how they do this with the don't know how they do this with the printing technology, but I've seen printing technology, but I've seen printing technology, but I've seen people try to peel it off the cover people try to peel it off the cover people try to peel it off the cover thinking it's literally thinking it's literally thinking it's literally >> like it's tactile. It's not a photo. it >> like it's tactile. It's not a photo. it >> like it's tactile. It's not a photo. it it has that I've got it somewhere in my it has that I've got it somewhere in my it has that I've got it somewhere in my library and like it's insane because you library and like it's insane because you library and like it's insane because you can touch it and it's like raised can touch it and it's like raised can touch it and it's like raised >> and so uh Chip puts together this >> and so uh Chip puts together this >> and so uh Chip puts together this PowerPoint where he takes one of the PowerPoint where he takes one of the PowerPoint where he takes one of the covers that that that we've been talking covers that that that we've been talking covers that that that we've been talking about you know maybe one of the post-it about you know maybe one of the post-it about you know maybe one of the post-it note covers and he puts it alongside 10 note covers and he puts it alongside 10 note covers and he puts it alongside 10 of the best sellers at the time and and of the best sellers at the time and and of the best sellers at the time and and at that time I think things have gotten at that time I think things have gotten at that time I think things have gotten a little more wild now but at that time a little more wild now but at that time a little more wild now but at that time it was like business books had a white it was like business books had a white it was like business books had a white cover black text you know some kind of cover black text you know some kind of cover black text you know some kind of offic ish image and and so the the the offic ish image and and so the the the offic ish image and and so the the the post-it note cover just completely post-it note cover just completely post-it note cover just completely blended in to the surroundings and then blended in to the surroundings and then blended in to the surroundings and then the next slide was like here's what it the next slide was like here's what it the next slide was like here's what it looks like with orange with duct tape looks like with orange with duct tape looks like with orange with duct tape and it was like boom it grabs your eyes and it was like boom it grabs your eyes and it was like boom it grabs your eyes immediately and and our editor god bless immediately and and our editor god bless immediately and and our editor god bless him Ben Ben Linen uh immediately got it him Ben Ben Linen uh immediately got it him Ben Ben Linen uh immediately got it he was like I get it I believe in it I'm he was like I get it I believe in it I'm he was like I get it I believe in it I'm going to lobby for you and um and he going to lobby for you and um and he going to lobby for you and um and he kind of parted the waves for us and and kind of parted the waves for us and and kind of parted the waves for us and and I'm convinced that that cover had had a I'm convinced that that cover had had a I'm convinced that that cover had had a big uh effect on the the launch.

big uh effect on the the launch. big uh effect on the the launch. >> Yeah. It's funny how almost 20 years >> Yeah. It's funny how almost 20 years >> Yeah. It's funny how almost 20 years later, I can still see it even though I later, I can still see it even though I later, I can still see it even though I haven't seen the book in a couple of haven't seen the book in a couple of haven't seen the book in a couple of years. That's great. years. That's great. years. That's great. >> So, you come out of the gate and you're >> So, you come out of the gate and you're >> So, you come out of the gate and you're in your early 30s when you and Chip in your early 30s when you and Chip in your early 30s when you and Chip write Made to Stick. write Made to Stick. write Made to Stick. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Wow. What did you do before that? >> Wow. What did you do before that? >> Wow. What did you do before that? >> I What did I do? I started a company in >> I What did I do? I started a company in >> I What did I do? I started a company in in the dot era that that actually is in the dot era that that actually is in the dot era that that actually is still around today. It's called Think still around today. It's called Think still around today. It's called Think Well, and it's um it makes a kind of Well, and it's um it makes a kind of Well, and it's um it makes a kind of digital textbook for college students. digital textbook for college students. digital textbook for college students. And then I went to business school and I And then I went to business school and I And then I went to business school and I wrote some business school cases and and wrote some business school cases and and wrote some business school cases and and did a stint in executive education. So, did a stint in executive education. So, did a stint in executive education. So, so it it's kind of like uh some form of so it it's kind of like uh some form of so it it's kind of like uh some form of communication and education and business communication and education and business communication and education and business are kind of the through lines if there are kind of the through lines if there are kind of the through lines if there are any to my career. are any to my career. are any to my career. >> Why writing and why made to stick for >> Why writing and why made to stick for >> Why writing and why made to stick for the debut? Well, that's actually a the debut? Well, that's actually a the debut? Well, that's actually a really easy question. So, Chip Chip was really easy question. So, Chip Chip was really easy question. So, Chip Chip was the one who had done the uh the the one who had done the uh the the one who had done the uh the background research on made to stick.

background research on made to stick. background research on made to stick. So, he was a professor at Stanford So, he was a professor at Stanford So, he was a professor at Stanford Business School and um I say was he's Business School and um I say was he's Business School and um I say was he's not dead. he's just uh he's retired not dead. he's just uh he's retired not dead. he's just uh he's retired >> and uh he he had been looking into the >> and uh he he had been looking into the >> and uh he he had been looking into the marketplace of ideas and why is it that marketplace of ideas and why is it that marketplace of ideas and why is it that some ideas get traction and others don't some ideas get traction and others don't some ideas get traction and others don't and he had written kind of an academic and he had written kind of an academic and he had written kind of an academic uh treatise on the subject that Ben the uh treatise on the subject that Ben the uh treatise on the subject that Ben the editor I was mentioning earlier came editor I was mentioning earlier came editor I was mentioning earlier came across and Ben proactively reached out across and Ben proactively reached out across and Ben proactively reached out to him and said hey this this is really to him and said hey this this is really to him and said hey this this is really interesting this sticky idea stuff like interesting this sticky idea stuff like interesting this sticky idea stuff like is there is there more meat here like is there is there more meat here like is there is there more meat here like could you see a book and and so They could you see a book and and so They could you see a book and and so They start talking and then eventually Chip start talking and then eventually Chip start talking and then eventually Chip reaches out to me cuz I'm more of the reaches out to me cuz I'm more of the reaches out to me cuz I'm more of the writer between us and he said, "Well, writer between us and he said, "Well, writer between us and he said, "Well, you know, would would you be willing to you know, would would you be willing to you know, would would you be willing to help me out with this book?" And I said, help me out with this book?" And I said, help me out with this book?" And I said, "Absolutely. If there's an editor at "Absolutely. If there's an editor at "Absolutely. If there's an editor at Random House asking like the answer is Random House asking like the answer is Random House asking like the answer is clearly yes." And so that was the start clearly yes." And so that was the start clearly yes." And so that was the start of it. It just kind of um it was just a of it. It just kind of um it was just a of it. It just kind of um it was just a door that fortuitously opened and and door that fortuitously opened and and door that fortuitously opened and and and all I really did was have the the and all I really did was have the the and all I really did was have the the sense to say absolutely and jump through sense to say absolutely and jump through sense to say absolutely and jump through it. So, you know, you're I'm I'm glad it. So, you know, you're I'm I'm glad it. So, you know, you're I'm I'm glad I'm talking to the writer part of the I'm talking to the writer part of the I'm talking to the writer part of the Chip and Dan Heath thing, and maybe Chip and Dan Heath thing, and maybe Chip and Dan Heath thing, and maybe we'll chat with Chip at some point.

we'll chat with Chip at some point. we'll chat with Chip at some point. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you have a lot of writers listening, >> But you have a lot of writers listening, >> But you have a lot of writers listening, a lot of preachers, as you say. You've a lot of preachers, as you say. You've a lot of preachers, as you say. You've got tens of thousands of leaders who got tens of thousands of leaders who got tens of thousands of leaders who have to write something this week. have to write something this week. have to write something this week. >> It seems to me not only was the cover >> It seems to me not only was the cover >> It seems to me not only was the cover different, but you probably broke some different, but you probably broke some different, but you probably broke some formulas when it came to business formulas when it came to business formulas when it came to business writing. And again, for those of us with writing. And again, for those of us with writing. And again, for those of us with a little bit of memory, we remember when a little bit of memory, we remember when a little bit of memory, we remember when it came out. For other leaders, if it came out. For other leaders, if it came out. For other leaders, if you're new, if you're 30, you haven't you're new, if you're 30, you haven't you're new, if you're 30, you haven't even heard of Made to Stick. It's held even heard of Made to Stick. It's held even heard of Made to Stick. It's held up. You should read it. It's amazing. up. You should read it. It's amazing. up. You should read it. It's amazing. What conventions did you break when in What conventions did you break when in What conventions did you break when in your writing style, if any? your writing style, if any? your writing style, if any? I don't know that we broke any I don't know that we broke any I don't know that we broke any conventions, but but there were a couple conventions, but but there were a couple conventions, but but there were a couple of things that we did consciously. So of things that we did consciously. So of things that we did consciously. So the the tipping point had come out the the tipping point had come out the the tipping point had come out already at that time. The the classic already at that time. The the classic already at that time. The the classic Malcolm Gladwell book that I'm I'm not Malcolm Gladwell book that I'm I'm not Malcolm Gladwell book that I'm I'm not sure we would have a career in the sure we would have a career in the sure we would have a career in the absence of Malcolm Gladwell. Like that absence of Malcolm Gladwell. Like that absence of Malcolm Gladwell. Like that book was such a phenomenon. It just book was such a phenomenon. It just book was such a phenomenon. It just opened up kind of this whole lane. And opened up kind of this whole lane. And opened up kind of this whole lane. And and so you know Gladwell's mastery of and so you know Gladwell's mastery of and so you know Gladwell's mastery of storytelling as as the engine of the storytelling as as the engine of the storytelling as as the engine of the book was something we were very book was something we were very book was something we were very conscious of. You know that stories can conscious of. You know that stories can conscious of. You know that stories can carry the weight of the exposition. And carry the weight of the exposition. And carry the weight of the exposition. And in fact, that's that's one of the very in fact, that's that's one of the very in fact, that's that's one of the very points of the book Made to Stick is that points of the book Made to Stick is that points of the book Made to Stick is that stories have this unique um kind of stories have this unique um kind of stories have this unique um kind of power in communication. So power in communication. So power in communication. So >> I still remember some some of the >> I still remember some some of the >> I still remember some some of the stories in there, the uh um what do you stories in there, the uh um what do you stories in there, the uh um what do you want to call it? Urban legends, why they want to call it? Urban legends, why they want to call it? Urban legends, why they stick, you know. Yes. Which would become stick, you know. Yes. Which would become stick, you know. Yes. Which would become much more relevant a decade later and much more relevant a decade later and much more relevant a decade later and today because of all of the fake news today because of all of the fake news today because of all of the fake news and with deep fake AIs now. I mean, if

and with deep fake AIs now. I mean, if and with deep fake AIs now. I mean, if you want to make a fake sticky story, you want to make a fake sticky story, you want to make a fake sticky story, and by the way, our listeners, Malcolm's and by the way, our listeners, Malcolm's and by the way, our listeners, Malcolm's been on twice on the podcast, so comb been on twice on the podcast, so comb been on twice on the podcast, so comb out out out >> and and I promise you, he'll be a lot >> and and I promise you, he'll be a lot >> and and I promise you, he'll be a lot more interesting than me. Go check those more interesting than me. Go check those more interesting than me. Go check those out first and then come back. out first and then come back. out first and then come back. >> Uh, so so that was one thing we had in >> Uh, so so that was one thing we had in >> Uh, so so that was one thing we had in mind. mind. mind. >> The other thing we had in mind was >> The other thing we had in mind was >> The other thing we had in mind was >> we really wanted to go kind of old >> we really wanted to go kind of old >> we really wanted to go kind of old school and practical. school and practical. school and practical. Um, so there's there's an author named Um, so there's there's an author named Um, so there's there's an author named Edward Tuy that has done a series of Edward Tuy that has done a series of Edward Tuy that has done a series of books. Um, one of the classics was the books. Um, one of the classics was the books. Um, one of the classics was the visual display of quantitative visual display of quantitative visual display of quantitative information. And it's it's a masterful information. And it's it's a masterful information. And it's it's a masterful book. It's basically about how do you book. It's basically about how do you book. It's basically about how do you tell stories using graphs and data and tell stories using graphs and data and tell stories using graphs and data and charts and illustrations of information. charts and illustrations of information. charts and illustrations of information. And he's he's so obsessive he actually And he's he's so obsessive he actually And he's he's so obsessive he actually like publishes his own books cuz he like publishes his own books cuz he like publishes his own books cuz he didn't feel like the publishers would do didn't feel like the publishers would do didn't feel like the publishers would do justice to the quality. and and and one justice to the quality. and and and one justice to the quality. and and and one of the things that we both loved about of the things that we both loved about of the things that we both loved about his work is he'll talk about some his work is he'll talk about some his work is he'll talk about some principle of design and then he'll show principle of design and then he'll show principle of design and then he'll show you he'll say you know this is what USA you he'll say you know this is what USA you he'll say you know this is what USA Today did with this information and it's Today did with this information and it's Today did with this information and it's kind of cheesy looking and cartoonish kind of cheesy looking and cartoonish kind of cheesy looking and cartoonish and he shows you like these these blocky and he shows you like these these blocky and he shows you like these these blocky cartoons they're actually deceptive cartoons they're actually deceptive cartoons they're actually deceptive because blah blah blah and then he'll because blah blah blah and then he'll because blah blah blah and then he'll show you like here's what it should look show you like here's what it should look show you like here's what it should look like and so there's like a real tangible like and so there's like a real tangible like and so there's like a real tangible before and after and it's just so before and after and it's just so before and after and it's just so winning because you're like, "Ah, I get winning because you're like, "Ah, I get winning because you're like, "Ah, I get it. Okay, now I buy in. Um, I can see it. Okay, now I buy in. Um, I can see it. Okay, now I buy in. Um, I can see for myself." And so that was something

for myself." And so that was something for myself." And so that was something that we were trying to emulate in Made that we were trying to emulate in Made that we were trying to emulate in Made to Stick is we wanted we don't want it to Stick is we wanted we don't want it to Stick is we wanted we don't want it to just be a couple of random brothers to just be a couple of random brothers to just be a couple of random brothers like giving you communications advice. like giving you communications advice. like giving you communications advice. We want to show you like if you're We want to show you like if you're We want to show you like if you're trying to communicate an idea, your trying to communicate an idea, your trying to communicate an idea, your instinct is going to be to do it this instinct is going to be to do it this instinct is going to be to do it this way, but but look what happens if you way, but but look what happens if you way, but but look what happens if you reformulate it this way. like you see reformulate it this way. like you see reformulate it this way. like you see how it kind of pops in your mind and how it kind of pops in your mind and how it kind of pops in your mind and it's easier to kind of grab hold of the it's easier to kind of grab hold of the it's easier to kind of grab hold of the critical details and and so that was critical details and and so that was critical details and and so that was those are probably the two biggest those are probably the two biggest those are probably the two biggest influences on the book I would say influences on the book I would say influences on the book I would say Gladwell and Tuy Gladwell and Tuy Gladwell and Tuy >> so a couple of decades later because we >> so a couple of decades later because we >> so a couple of decades later because we have so many communicators listening have so many communicators listening have so many communicators listening what makes a message sticky I mean as what makes a message sticky I mean as what makes a message sticky I mean as we're writing for the weekend as we're we're writing for the weekend as we're we're writing for the weekend as we're writing for next month what is going to writing for next month what is going to writing for next month what is going to make us better communicators make us better communicators make us better communicators >> well I've got a book for that now I so >> well I've got a book for that now I so >> well I've got a book for that now I so if you're interested in this go there is if you're interested in this go there is if you're interested in this go there is that's what the whole book is about but that's what the whole book is about but that's what the whole book is about but Let me give you the uh the snapshot. And Let me give you the uh the snapshot. And Let me give you the uh the snapshot. And the book is built around a framework. It the book is built around a framework. It the book is built around a framework. It says that sticky ideas share six traits. says that sticky ideas share six traits. says that sticky ideas share six traits. They are simple, unexpected, concrete, They are simple, unexpected, concrete, They are simple, unexpected, concrete, credible, emotional, and they're often credible, emotional, and they're often credible, emotional, and they're often told as stories. So if you perceived told as stories. So if you perceived told as stories. So if you perceived there was an acronym there, success there was an acronym there, success there was an acronym there, success minus the final S. We did not find a minus the final S. We did not find a minus the final S. We did not find a seventh trait. Um and and the shorthand seventh trait. Um and and the shorthand seventh trait. Um and and the shorthand is if you can only remember one of is if you can only remember one of is if you can only remember one of those, remember story. And I think those, remember story. And I think those, remember story. And I think actually pastors and ministers are actually pastors and ministers are actually pastors and ministers are brilliant at this. I think they get that brilliant at this. I think they get that brilliant at this. I think they get that that that stories the reason they're that that stories the reason they're that that stories the reason they're distinctive is because they kind of distinctive is because they kind of distinctive is because they kind of carry with them a lot of those other carry with them a lot of those other carry with them a lot of those other traits. Like most stories have an traits. Like most stories have an traits. Like most stories have an unexpected component. There's something unexpected component. There's something unexpected component. There's something surprising about them. And most stories surprising about them. And most stories surprising about them. And most stories thrive on emotion. There's a reason that

thrive on emotion. There's a reason that thrive on emotion. There's a reason that we care about them and so forth. And so, we care about them and so forth. And so, we care about them and so forth. And so, you know, the story is a uniquely you know, the story is a uniquely you know, the story is a uniquely powerful and memorable vehicle for powerful and memorable vehicle for powerful and memorable vehicle for communications almost to a fault. communications almost to a fault. communications almost to a fault. Actually, when I when I was thinking Actually, when I when I was thinking Actually, when I when I was thinking about about about ministerial communication, ministerial communication, ministerial communication, one trap that I've seen a lot fall into one trap that I've seen a lot fall into one trap that I've seen a lot fall into is um they'll often do this thing where, is um they'll often do this thing where, is um they'll often do this thing where, you know, they open up with a story. You you know, they open up with a story. You you know, they open up with a story. You know, maybe it's some funny thing that know, maybe it's some funny thing that know, maybe it's some funny thing that happened in their family the week prior. happened in their family the week prior. happened in their family the week prior. you know, it's it's a joke or and and you know, it's it's a joke or and and you know, it's it's a joke or and and they're almost always brilliant, right? they're almost always brilliant, right? they're almost always brilliant, right? And so the audience is like right there And so the audience is like right there And so the audience is like right there in their hands and they're laughing and in their hands and they're laughing and in their hands and they're laughing and they're they're they're captivated they're they're they're captivated they're they're they're captivated and then they kind of pivot to the and then they kind of pivot to the and then they kind of pivot to the lesson. It's almost like the opening lesson. It's almost like the opening lesson. It's almost like the opening story is like an amuse bouch or story is like an amuse bouch or story is like an amuse bouch or something. It's like, okay, here, taste something. It's like, okay, here, taste something. It's like, okay, here, taste this. Um, but I I think the the real art this. Um, but I I think the the real art this. Um, but I I think the the real art of it is you want to have your most of it is you want to have your most of it is you want to have your most compelling story be the one that carries compelling story be the one that carries compelling story be the one that carries the message. You know what I mean? You the message. You know what I mean? You the message. You know what I mean? You don't want people a week later and all don't want people a week later and all don't want people a week later and all they remember of your sermon is the they remember of your sermon is the they remember of your sermon is the funny story about what your kid did, funny story about what your kid did, funny story about what your kid did, right?

right? right? >> Which has nothing to do with your text >> Which has nothing to do with your text >> Which has nothing to do with your text or your main point. or your main point. or your main point. >> That's it. That's it. And so that's one >> That's it. That's it. And so that's one >> That's it. That's it. And so that's one of the themes of of the book is that you of the themes of of the book is that you of the themes of of the book is that you need to map these sticky traits to your need to map these sticky traits to your need to map these sticky traits to your core message. You know, it's not enough core message. You know, it's not enough core message. You know, it's not enough for something to be sticky. It has to be for something to be sticky. It has to be for something to be sticky. It has to be sticky in the service of something. sticky in the service of something. sticky in the service of something. >> What makes urban legends so repeatable, >> What makes urban legends so repeatable, >> What makes urban legends so repeatable, memorable, and viral? memorable, and viral? memorable, and viral? >> So the the very first page of the book >> So the the very first page of the book >> So the the very first page of the book >> is an urban legend. I'll just tell it >> is an urban legend. I'll just tell it >> is an urban legend. I'll just tell it real quick and then we'll talk about why real quick and then we'll talk about why real quick and then we'll talk about why it works. it works. it works. So, a friend of a friend of mine was on So, a friend of a friend of mine was on So, a friend of a friend of mine was on a business trip recently and he was at a business trip recently and he was at a business trip recently and he was at the airport. He had some time to kill the airport. He had some time to kill the airport. He had some time to kill and so he stopped into the airport bar and so he stopped into the airport bar and so he stopped into the airport bar and before he could order a drink, a and before he could order a drink, a and before he could order a drink, a stranger approaches him and asks if she stranger approaches him and asks if she stranger approaches him and asks if she could buy him a drink. And she's an could buy him a drink. And she's an could buy him a drink. And she's an attractive woman and this is not attractive woman and this is not attractive woman and this is not something that happens to this fellow something that happens to this fellow something that happens to this fellow very often. So, he was flattered. He very often. So, he was flattered. He very often. So, he was flattered. He said, "Well, sure. I'll have a drink." said, "Well, sure. I'll have a drink." said, "Well, sure. I'll have a drink." So she goes up to the bar, orders two So she goes up to the bar, orders two So she goes up to the bar, orders two drinks, one for her, one for him, comes drinks, one for her, one for him, comes drinks, one for her, one for him, comes back.

back. back. He takes a big swig, thinking in his He takes a big swig, thinking in his He takes a big swig, thinking in his mind, "This is the greatest day of my mind, "This is the greatest day of my mind, "This is the greatest day of my life." And then blacks out, wakes up life." And then blacks out, wakes up life." And then blacks out, wakes up some unknown amount of time later in a some unknown amount of time later in a some unknown amount of time later in a strange hotel bathtub that's full of strange hotel bathtub that's full of strange hotel bathtub that's full of ice. ice. ice. And there's a sign right by the tub that And there's a sign right by the tub that And there's a sign right by the tub that says, "Don't move. Call 911." says, "Don't move. Call 911." says, "Don't move. Call 911." Fortunately, there's a phone right by Fortunately, there's a phone right by Fortunately, there's a phone right by the the tub. And so he picks up the the the tub. And so he picks up the the the tub. And so he picks up the phone, calls 911, panicked, obviously, phone, calls 911, panicked, obviously, phone, calls 911, panicked, obviously, describes to the operator what's describes to the operator what's describes to the operator what's happening. Hey, I I'm in this bad. I I happening. Hey, I I'm in this bad. I I happening. Hey, I I'm in this bad. I I don't know what's happened. And the don't know what's happened. And the don't know what's happened. And the operator says, "Sir, stay calm. Reach operator says, "Sir, stay calm. Reach operator says, "Sir, stay calm. Reach behind you and see is there a tube behind you and see is there a tube behind you and see is there a tube sticking out of your back." And so he sticking out of your back." And so he sticking out of your back." And so he reaches behind him in the tub and his reaches behind him in the tub and his reaches behind him in the tub and his fingers are kind of numb and clumsy from fingers are kind of numb and clumsy from fingers are kind of numb and clumsy from the ice, but but he can tell there's a the ice, but but he can tell there's a the ice, but but he can tell there's a tube there. And now he's really freaking tube there. And now he's really freaking tube there. And now he's really freaking out. Yeah. Yeah, there's a tube there. out. Yeah. Yeah, there's a tube there. out. Yeah. Yeah, there's a tube there. What What's happening? The operator What What's happening? The operator What What's happening? The operator says, "Sir, stay right where you are. says, "Sir, stay right where you are. says, "Sir, stay right where you are. There's a ring of organ thieves in the There's a ring of organ thieves in the There's a ring of organ thieves in the community and they've taken one of your community and they've taken one of your community and they've taken one of your kidneys. kidneys. kidneys. That's called the kidney thieves urban That's called the kidney thieves urban That's called the kidney thieves urban legend.

legend. legend. I've told that I've told that I've told that >> true >> true >> true >> I've told that story around the world. >> I've told that story around the world. >> I've told that story around the world. Everybody has heard some version of Everybody has heard some version of Everybody has heard some version of this. this. this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh sometimes the details change like >> Uh sometimes the details change like >> Uh sometimes the details change like where the airport is or whatever, but it where the airport is or whatever, but it where the airport is or whatever, but it always has like the same critical always has like the same critical always has like the same critical elements. The the drink that was elements. The the drink that was elements. The the drink that was apparently spiked, the bathtub full of apparently spiked, the bathtub full of apparently spiked, the bathtub full of ice. Now if we were to ask why does this ice. Now if we were to ask why does this ice. Now if we were to ask why does this idea thrive and succeed? I mean all of idea thrive and succeed? I mean all of idea thrive and succeed? I mean all of us would would love to have our ideas us would would love to have our ideas us would would love to have our ideas circulate around from person to person circulate around from person to person circulate around from person to person without much effort on our part with no without much effort on our part with no without much effort on our part with no ad budget behind them with no team ad budget behind them with no team ad budget behind them with no team promoting them on social media. Right? promoting them on social media. Right? promoting them on social media. Right? It's just something about the the merits It's just something about the the merits It's just something about the the merits of this story if you will that cause it of this story if you will that cause it of this story if you will that cause it to circulate. And and I think there are to circulate. And and I think there are to circulate. And and I think there are many answers to that question, but I many answers to that question, but I many answers to that question, but I think to me the singular strength of a think to me the singular strength of a think to me the singular strength of a story like this is its concreteness, story like this is its concreteness, story like this is its concreteness, which is one of the six traits of sticky which is one of the six traits of sticky which is one of the six traits of sticky ideas. Concreteness meaning sensory ideas. Concreteness meaning sensory ideas. Concreteness meaning sensory visual language.

visual language. visual language. If you think about the detail, you wake If you think about the detail, you wake If you think about the detail, you wake up in a strange hotel bathtub full of up in a strange hotel bathtub full of up in a strange hotel bathtub full of ice. Like is there any more sensory ice. Like is there any more sensory ice. Like is there any more sensory language that you can imagine than that? language that you can imagine than that? language that you can imagine than that? Right? It's it's like you almost just Right? It's it's like you almost just Right? It's it's like you almost just shiver hearing it. And so the shiver hearing it. And so the shiver hearing it. And so the significance I think for our purposes significance I think for our purposes significance I think for our purposes because obviously we're not in the because obviously we're not in the because obviously we're not in the business of telling cheesy false stories business of telling cheesy false stories business of telling cheesy false stories about organ thieves, right? We have true about organ thieves, right? We have true about organ thieves, right? We have true information. We have profound messages information. We have profound messages information. We have profound messages to share. And what we need to do is is to share. And what we need to do is is to share. And what we need to do is is emulate emulate emulate the concreteness of this story. Because the concreteness of this story. Because the concreteness of this story. Because if a month from now you're retelling the if a month from now you're retelling the if a month from now you're retelling the story to amuse friends or family, you're story to amuse friends or family, you're story to amuse friends or family, you're not going to remember the text of it not going to remember the text of it not going to remember the text of it like a transcript. Like you're not going like a transcript. Like you're not going like a transcript. Like you're not going to just call up what Dan Heath said and to just call up what Dan Heath said and to just call up what Dan Heath said and then read it word for word in your mind. then read it word for word in your mind. then read it word for word in your mind. You're just going to have those images You're just going to have those images You're just going to have those images in your brain. You're going to remember in your brain. You're going to remember in your brain. You're going to remember the bathtub full of ice and the the bathtub full of ice and the the bathtub full of ice and the attractive stranger in the airport and attractive stranger in the airport and attractive stranger in the airport and and you're going to call up those images and you're going to call up those images and you're going to call up those images and then narrate them in your own way. and then narrate them in your own way. and then narrate them in your own way. And that's what a sticky story does is And that's what a sticky story does is And that's what a sticky story does is it embeds itself.

it embeds itself. it embeds itself. >> Yeah. I I don't know whether you phrase >> Yeah. I I don't know whether you phrase >> Yeah. I I don't know whether you phrase it this way in the book cuz it's been a it this way in the book cuz it's been a it this way in the book cuz it's been a minute. I didn't spend plan on spending minute. I didn't spend plan on spending minute. I didn't spend plan on spending all this time talking about made to all this time talking about made to all this time talking about made to stick. We just ended up there. But is it stick. We just ended up there. But is it stick. We just ended up there. But is it in the book or you know would you agree in the book or you know would you agree in the book or you know would you agree or react to the story that the more or react to the story that the more or react to the story that the more personal it is the more universal it is personal it is the more universal it is personal it is the more universal it is to you know if I'm telling a story and to you know if I'm telling a story and to you know if I'm telling a story and I'm bad I'm one of the few preachers I'm bad I'm one of the few preachers I'm bad I'm one of the few preachers like I think in bullet points and linear like I think in bullet points and linear like I think in bullet points and linear dedactic thinking dedactic thinking dedactic thinking >> trained as a lawyer so that's my problem >> trained as a lawyer so that's my problem >> trained as a lawyer so that's my problem so storytelling takes some work for me so storytelling takes some work for me so storytelling takes some work for me and I can be like yeah there was a guy and I can be like yeah there was a guy and I can be like yeah there was a guy at a bar got a drink ended up in a at a bar got a drink ended up in a at a bar got a drink ended up in a bathtub it was like organ donation ring bathtub it was like organ donation ring bathtub it was like organ donation ring thieves anyway that's a story not much thieves anyway that's a story not much thieves anyway that's a story not much of a story right so I've got to my wife of a story right so I've got to my wife of a story right so I've got to my wife really helps me with this. I have to really helps me with this. I have to really helps me with this. I have to think through very personal. You know, think through very personal. You know, think through very personal. You know, it was a the hottest afternoon of the it was a the hottest afternoon of the it was a the hottest afternoon of the summer. I was exhausted. It was around summer. I was exhausted. It was around summer. I was exhausted. It was around 4:30 and I sat down on my porch and what 4:30 and I sat down on my porch and what 4:30 and I sat down on my porch and what happened next I wasn't expecting. I'm happened next I wasn't expecting. I'm happened next I wasn't expecting. I'm just making that up. But there's just making that up. But there's just making that up. But there's granular detail granular detail granular detail >> already. I mean, see see that that's got >> already. I mean, see see that that's got >> already. I mean, see see that that's got it. it. it. >> I don't know where that story goes cuz I >> I don't know where that story goes cuz I >> I don't know where that story goes cuz I just made it up. But, you know, it's just made it up. But, you know, it's just made it up. But, you know, it's that personal like I set the stage. You that personal like I set the stage. You that personal like I set the stage. You know, you can feel it. We've all been know, you can feel it. We've all been know, you can feel it. We've all been there. hottest day of the afternoon, there. hottest day of the afternoon, there. hottest day of the afternoon, 4:30 in the afternoon, sitting down on 4:30 in the afternoon, sitting down on 4:30 in the afternoon, sitting down on the back porch, what's going to happen the back porch, what's going to happen the back porch, what's going to happen next as opposed to I sat down on the next as opposed to I sat down on the next as opposed to I sat down on the porch and then I saw, you know, so I'm porch and then I saw, you know, so I'm porch and then I saw, you know, so I'm wondering, you know, when we're wondering, you know, when we're wondering, you know, when we're storytelling, any thoughts on um storytelling, any thoughts on um storytelling, any thoughts on um becoming really personal and detailed, becoming really personal and detailed, becoming really personal and detailed, like, you know, you don't want to be like, you know, you don't want to be like, you know, you don't want to be boring, but you told that story in what, boring, but you told that story in what, boring, but you told that story in what, 2 minutes, minute and a half maybe.

2 minutes, minute and a half maybe. 2 minutes, minute and a half maybe. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> With those details. So, um, any other >> With those details. So, um, any other >> With those details. So, um, any other further thoughts on how to tell a further thoughts on how to tell a further thoughts on how to tell a memorable story by making it personal memorable story by making it personal memorable story by making it personal and detailed? and detailed? and detailed? I don't think it has to be personal. I I don't think it has to be personal. I I don't think it has to be personal. I think the reason why personal stories think the reason why personal stories think the reason why personal stories often work is because they read as often work is because they read as often work is because they read as sincere and and um they they kind of sincere and and um they they kind of sincere and and um they they kind of dial up the emotion because we care dial up the emotion because we care dial up the emotion because we care about you if we know you. And so, about you if we know you. And so, about you if we know you. And so, >> um, it's like there are some natural >> um, it's like there are some natural >> um, it's like there are some natural advantages, but, um, but a story about, advantages, but, um, but a story about, advantages, but, um, but a story about, you know, the whole kidney thieves thing you know, the whole kidney thieves thing you know, the whole kidney thieves thing was about, uh, I I I set it up by saying was about, uh, I I I set it up by saying was about, uh, I I I set it up by saying it's about a friend of a friend and and it's about a friend of a friend and and it's about a friend of a friend and and still, you know, you were willing to still, you know, you were willing to still, you know, you were willing to follow along even though it wasn't follow along even though it wasn't follow along even though it wasn't anything regarding me. I I think what anything regarding me. I I think what anything regarding me. I I think what you did you did you did probably consciously after lots of probably consciously after lots of probably consciously after lots of practice w with your with your fake practice w with your with your fake practice w with your with your fake story setup was you said something. I story setup was you said something. I story setup was you said something. I was sitting on the front porch. It was a was sitting on the front porch. It was a was sitting on the front porch. It was a really hot afternoon and and then really hot afternoon and and then really hot afternoon and and then something unex what did you say? something unex what did you say? something unex what did you say? Something unexpected happened next. Something unexpected happened next. Something unexpected happened next. >> Yeah. And then this happened something >> Yeah. And then this happened something >> Yeah. And then this happened something and then it happened. Yeah.

and then it happened. Yeah. and then it happened. Yeah. >> So that is that is an example of >> So that is that is an example of >> So that is that is an example of unexpectedness. Again, one of the the unexpectedness. Again, one of the the unexpectedness. Again, one of the the six traits and and I think this is often six traits and and I think this is often six traits and and I think this is often where communicators can get the most where communicators can get the most where communicators can get the most bang for the buck because I think uh a bang for the buck because I think uh a bang for the buck because I think uh a lot of times we're just tempted to come lot of times we're just tempted to come lot of times we're just tempted to come out with it. You know that we got out with it. You know that we got out with it. You know that we got something to say and we're just going to something to say and we're just going to something to say and we're just going to say it. Um but uh as Bob Chaldini says, say it. Um but uh as Bob Chaldini says, say it. Um but uh as Bob Chaldini says, Chaldini is the the author of the Chaldini is the the author of the Chaldini is the the author of the wonderful book influence. He says um the wonderful book influence. He says um the wonderful book influence. He says um the aha experience is often preceded by a aha experience is often preceded by a aha experience is often preceded by a huh experience. Meaning if if you can huh experience. Meaning if if you can huh experience. Meaning if if you can kind of tease before you tell, kind of tease before you tell, kind of tease before you tell, that's a really powerful hook. If the that's a really powerful hook. If the that's a really powerful hook. If the audience wants the information before audience wants the information before audience wants the information before you deliver it, I mean, if you want a you deliver it, I mean, if you want a you deliver it, I mean, if you want a master class in this, listen to any master class in this, listen to any master class in this, listen to any datine show or podcast. I mean, these datine show or podcast. I mean, these datine show or podcast. I mean, these people are like the the, you know, Jedi people are like the the, you know, Jedi people are like the the, you know, Jedi masters of unexpectedness. Everything is masters of unexpectedness. Everything is masters of unexpectedness. Everything is a cliffhanger and everything leaves you a cliffhanger and everything leaves you a cliffhanger and everything leaves you in suspense and and is it the boyfriend in suspense and and is it the boyfriend in suspense and and is it the boyfriend or is it the husband? Spoiler, it's or is it the husband? Spoiler, it's or is it the husband? Spoiler, it's always the husband. So, yes, it's him.

always the husband. So, yes, it's him. always the husband. So, yes, it's him. But they they'll string it out for three But they they'll string it out for three But they they'll string it out for three episodes before they reveal it. And and episodes before they reveal it. And and episodes before they reveal it. And and it's a way of getting you on the hook to it's a way of getting you on the hook to it's a way of getting you on the hook to want the information. want the information. want the information. >> No, I think that's a really good point. >> No, I think that's a really good point. >> No, I think that's a really good point. And you know, ironically, what's really And you know, ironically, what's really And you know, ironically, what's really good of that, good of that, good of that, >> not only Jesus, but all of scripture, >> not only Jesus, but all of scripture, >> not only Jesus, but all of scripture, there's so much surprise. And I think we there's so much surprise. And I think we there's so much surprise. And I think we beat the surprise out of it. If you grew beat the surprise out of it. If you grew beat the surprise out of it. If you grew up in church, you've read the story 28 up in church, you've read the story 28 up in church, you've read the story 28 times or 280 times times or 280 times times or 280 times >> and it's very familiar. >> and it's very familiar. >> and it's very familiar. >> People kind of know what's coming next. >> People kind of know what's coming next. >> People kind of know what's coming next. And I always, you know, encourage And I always, you know, encourage And I always, you know, encourage preachers to find the surprise. preachers to find the surprise. preachers to find the surprise. >> Yeah. Like where is a surprise in the >> Yeah. Like where is a surprise in the >> Yeah. Like where is a surprise in the text? Where is the suspense? Because text? Where is the suspense? Because text? Where is the suspense? Because Jesus was masterful at huh? What? What? Jesus was masterful at huh? What? What? Jesus was masterful at huh? What? What? Oh that like and sometimes I mean this Oh that like and sometimes I mean this Oh that like and sometimes I mean this is what I think great pastors do so well is what I think great pastors do so well is what I think great pastors do so well is sometimes you have to tell people why is sometimes you have to tell people why is sometimes you have to tell people why to be surprised because they don't have to be surprised because they don't have to be surprised because they don't have the context that you do and and they may the context that you do and and they may the context that you do and and they may not register, you know, what's going on, not register, you know, what's going on, not register, you know, what's going on, you know. So, um I think this is true of you know. So, um I think this is true of you know. So, um I think this is true of a lot of teachers as well is that that a lot of teachers as well is that that a lot of teachers as well is that that you kind of have to give students enough you kind of have to give students enough you kind of have to give students enough backstory to be impressed by something backstory to be impressed by something backstory to be impressed by something in a way. Um like I remember this is in a way. Um like I remember this is in a way. Um like I remember this is kind of a random association, but this kind of a random association, but this kind of a random association, but this team of science teachers team of science teachers team of science teachers uh that I was working with were working uh that I was working with were working uh that I was working with were working on an oceanography unit on an oceanography unit on an oceanography unit and we were talking about okay, where's and we were talking about okay, where's and we were talking about okay, where's the where's the mystery here? Where's the where's the mystery here? Where's the where's the mystery here? Where's the surprise?

the surprise? the surprise? And they gosh they were so good at this. And they gosh they were so good at this. And they gosh they were so good at this. I mean I still I mean it's probably been I mean I still I mean it's probably been I mean I still I mean it's probably been 15 years since I worked there and I 15 years since I worked there and I 15 years since I worked there and I still remember some of the ideas they still remember some of the ideas they still remember some of the ideas they came up with. They they said um years came up with. They they said um years came up with. They they said um years ago there had been um a container ship ago there had been um a container ship ago there had been um a container ship that had an accident and a bunch of that had an accident and a bunch of that had an accident and a bunch of crates fell overboard. I think in the in crates fell overboard. I think in the in crates fell overboard. I think in the in the Indian Ocean or the Pacific Ocean. the Indian Ocean or the Pacific Ocean. the Indian Ocean or the Pacific Ocean. A bunch of crates fell overboard A bunch of crates fell overboard A bunch of crates fell overboard shattered upon impact with the water and shattered upon impact with the water and shattered upon impact with the water and inside the cargo happened to be rubber inside the cargo happened to be rubber inside the cargo happened to be rubber duckies. I mean, hundreds and hundreds duckies. I mean, hundreds and hundreds duckies. I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rubber duckies. And so, and hundreds of rubber duckies. And so, and hundreds of rubber duckies. And so, the question was, if if I show you where the question was, if if I show you where the question was, if if I show you where those duckies hit the water for the those duckies hit the water for the those duckies hit the water for the first time, where do they end up? first time, where do they end up? first time, where do they end up? >> Well, that's interesting. I mean, people >> Well, that's interesting. I mean, people >> Well, that's interesting. I mean, people can make a guess, right? Maybe it's like can make a guess, right? Maybe it's like can make a guess, right? Maybe it's like the closest coastline to wherever that the closest coastline to wherever that the closest coastline to wherever that was, or if it's not there, why? Um, so was, or if it's not there, why? Um, so was, or if it's not there, why? Um, so that's a great example of a mystery to that's a great example of a mystery to that's a great example of a mystery to kind of get you on the hook to learn kind of get you on the hook to learn kind of get you on the hook to learn something about ocean currents. Another something about ocean currents. Another something about ocean currents. Another mystery was um Madrid and New York are mystery was um Madrid and New York are mystery was um Madrid and New York are on about the same latitude line. So a on about the same latitude line. So a on about the same latitude line. So a lot of students come in thinking, you lot of students come in thinking, you lot of students come in thinking, you know, why do why do places have the know, why do why do places have the know, why do why do places have the weather that they have? Well, it's you weather that they have? Well, it's you weather that they have? Well, it's you know, if you're close to the equator, know, if you're close to the equator, know, if you're close to the equator, it's going to be hot. If you're farther it's going to be hot. If you're farther it's going to be hot. If you're farther away from the equator, it's going to be away from the equator, it's going to be away from the equator, it's going to be cold. But it ain't that simple because cold. But it ain't that simple because cold. But it ain't that simple because Madrid and New York should have Madrid and New York should have Madrid and New York should have basically identical weather by that basically identical weather by that basically identical weather by that hypothesis. But it snows all the time hypothesis. But it snows all the time hypothesis. But it snows all the time and New York rarely snows in Madrid.

and New York rarely snows in Madrid. and New York rarely snows in Madrid. Why? And and so it's these kind of Why? And and so it's these kind of Why? And and so it's these kind of mysteries that that buy some investment mysteries that that buy some investment mysteries that that buy some investment in in what what would otherwise be dry in in what what would otherwise be dry in in what what would otherwise be dry content. content. content. >> Any other tips like when you think about >> Any other tips like when you think about >> Any other tips like when you think about preachers and you know it might be preachers and you know it might be preachers and you know it might be somebody saw on TV or a memory from your somebody saw on TV or a memory from your somebody saw on TV or a memory from your childhood or something like that. If you childhood or something like that. If you childhood or something like that. If you had advice to give to preachers, what's had advice to give to preachers, what's had advice to give to preachers, what's one area you would say overall as a one area you would say overall as a one area you would say overall as a general rule if sermon deliverers did general rule if sermon deliverers did general rule if sermon deliverers did this it would be better? Do you have a this it would be better? Do you have a this it would be better? Do you have a trend like that or anything you can trend like that or anything you can trend like that or anything you can think about? And I'll give you I'll give think about? And I'll give you I'll give think about? And I'll give you I'll give you a softball here. you a softball here. you a softball here. >> It was my seminary prof who said most >> It was my seminary prof who said most >> It was my seminary prof who said most sermons are seen to be tedious, sermons are seen to be tedious, sermons are seen to be tedious, moralizing discourses and he's not moralizing discourses and he's not moralizing discourses and he's not wrong. If you look at the way it's wrong. If you look at the way it's wrong. If you look at the way it's portrayed in movies, uh the preacher is portrayed in movies, uh the preacher is portrayed in movies, uh the preacher is never fascinating. He's if he's never fascinating. He's if he's never fascinating. He's if he's fascinating, he's corrupt. And if he's fascinating, he's corrupt. And if he's fascinating, he's corrupt. And if he's not corrupt, he's boring. So that you not corrupt, he's boring. So that you not corrupt, he's boring. So that you know, and I think a lot of preachers do know, and I think a lot of preachers do know, and I think a lot of preachers do a lot better than that, but we're all a lot better than that, but we're all a lot better than that, but we're all trying to get better. So, what would trying to get better. So, what would trying to get better. So, what would your advice be?

your advice be? your advice be? >> The only thing I'm coming up with that >> The only thing I'm coming up with that >> The only thing I'm coming up with that that that I um that I think is um simple that that I um that I think is um simple that that I um that I think is um simple enough to be memorable and um and can be enough to be memorable and um and can be enough to be memorable and um and can be used again and again is it's a bit used again and again is it's a bit used again and again is it's a bit repetitive from what we talked about, repetitive from what we talked about, repetitive from what we talked about, but but I think it's aligning your best but but I think it's aligning your best but but I think it's aligning your best material with the moral of the story. material with the moral of the story. material with the moral of the story. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, uh it's like whatever the >> You know, uh it's like whatever the >> You know, uh it's like whatever the story is that you want them to remember story is that you want them to remember story is that you want them to remember two weeks later cuz they're going to two weeks later cuz they're going to two weeks later cuz they're going to forget 90% of what you say. Mhm. forget 90% of what you say. Mhm. forget 90% of what you say. Mhm. >> And you can either let the 10% they >> And you can either let the 10% they >> And you can either let the 10% they remember be random or be a function of remember be random or be a function of remember be random or be a function of the funny anecdote that you started the funny anecdote that you started the funny anecdote that you started with. Or you can make that 10% with with. Or you can make that 10% with with. Or you can make that 10% with intention. And you can sit down and kind intention. And you can sit down and kind intention. And you can sit down and kind of strategize and say, "Okay, this is of strategize and say, "Okay, this is of strategize and say, "Okay, this is the point I'm trying to make. What's the the point I'm trying to make. What's the the point I'm trying to make. What's the what's the stickiest version of this what's the stickiest version of this what's the stickiest version of this idea? And how can I load the deck to idea? And how can I load the deck to idea? And how can I load the deck to make sure they remember that one piece?" make sure they remember that one piece?" make sure they remember that one piece?" I I I >> Well, you know, congrats to you because >> Well, you know, congrats to you because >> Well, you know, congrats to you because that's a lesson I've carried with me that's a lesson I've carried with me that's a lesson I've carried with me carried with me for the last 20 years. carried with me for the last 20 years. carried with me for the last 20 years. things to make. things to make. things to make. >> Oh, thank you. >> Oh, thank you. >> Oh, thank you. >> rather than random stories. I mean, you >> rather than random stories. I mean, you >> rather than random stories. I mean, you can have a little tidbit here or there, can have a little tidbit here or there, can have a little tidbit here or there, but if your big story, your dramatic but if your big story, your dramatic but if your big story, your dramatic story, whether it's funny or whether story, whether it's funny or whether story, whether it's funny or whether it's serious or whether it's, you know, it's serious or whether it's, you know, it's serious or whether it's, you know, whatever emotion it is, if it doesn't whatever emotion it is, if it doesn't whatever emotion it is, if it doesn't communicate the main point, then you communicate the main point, then you communicate the main point, then you probably have the wrong story for the probably have the wrong story for the probably have the wrong story for the message because you're going to distract message because you're going to distract message because you're going to distract from it because from it because from it because >> story sticks. You know, they can tell on >> story sticks. You know, they can tell on >> story sticks. You know, they can tell on the car ride home, they can tell what the car ride home, they can tell what the car ride home, they can tell what your sermon, the story in your sermon.

your sermon, the story in your sermon. your sermon, the story in your sermon. They can recount it for exactly the They can recount it for exactly the They can recount it for exactly the reason that you talked about, you know, reason that you talked about, you know, reason that you talked about, you know, urban legends being repeatable, urban legends being repeatable, urban legends being repeatable, >> but they won't be able to repeat your >> but they won't be able to repeat your >> but they won't be able to repeat your three points or your single point three points or your single point three points or your single point probably unless you really work hard on probably unless you really work hard on probably unless you really work hard on it. So, that's great. Well, I'd love to it. So, that's great. Well, I'd love to it. So, that's great. Well, I'd love to know about working with your brother, know about working with your brother, know about working with your brother, man, with Chip. So, you you've done some man, with Chip. So, you you've done some man, with Chip. So, you you've done some solo work, but you guys are good. Um, solo work, but you guys are good. Um, solo work, but you guys are good. Um, what does it look like to collaborate? what does it look like to collaborate? what does it look like to collaborate? We have a lot of leaders listening here We have a lot of leaders listening here We have a lot of leaders listening here who work with family. who work with family. who work with family. >> We always get asked, I can't imagine >> We always get asked, I can't imagine >> We always get asked, I can't imagine writing a book with my brother or my writing a book with my brother or my writing a book with my brother or my sister. Uh so apparently is not not a sister. Uh so apparently is not not a sister. Uh so apparently is not not a universal aspiration. I I think we had a universal aspiration. I I think we had a universal aspiration. I I think we had a couple of things going for us. I mean, couple of things going for us. I mean, couple of things going for us. I mean, one is we're we're 10 years apart. So one is we're we're 10 years apart. So one is we're we're 10 years apart. So I'm I'm 52 and he's uh about to be 62. I'm I'm 52 and he's uh about to be 62. I'm I'm 52 and he's uh about to be 62. And and so you know, we didn't have a And and so you know, we didn't have a And and so you know, we didn't have a real sibling rivalry growing up because, real sibling rivalry growing up because, real sibling rivalry growing up because, you know, when he went to college, I was you know, when he went to college, I was you know, when he went to college, I was eight. So it was like he was better at eight. So it was like he was better at eight. So it was like he was better at every thing imaginable than I. So it every thing imaginable than I. So it every thing imaginable than I. So it wasn't like we were jockeying for wasn't like we were jockeying for wasn't like we were jockeying for attention. attention. attention. >> When you went to college, you were >> When you went to college, you were >> When you went to college, you were eight. That's crazy. eight. That's crazy. eight. That's crazy. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so so I think we kind of came >> Um so so I think we kind of came >> Um so so I think we kind of came together as adults and and this is what together as adults and and this is what together as adults and and this is what we bonded over really. Uh and and the we bonded over really. Uh and and the we bonded over really. Uh and and the other thing that we had going for us is other thing that we had going for us is other thing that we had going for us is we wanted to do different things. Like we wanted to do different things. Like we wanted to do different things. Like he really enjoys the research and I he really enjoys the research and I he really enjoys the research and I really enjoy the writing. Uh, and and I really enjoy the writing. Uh, and and I really enjoy the writing. Uh, and and I think if he had enjoyed the writing as think if he had enjoyed the writing as think if he had enjoyed the writing as much as me, like I I think that would much as me, like I I think that would much as me, like I I think that would have been untenable. Like I'm just such have been untenable. Like I'm just such have been untenable. Like I'm just such a control freak and a perfectionist, a control freak and a perfectionist, a control freak and a perfectionist, like I don't think I would have wanted like I don't think I would have wanted like I don't think I would have wanted to be negotiating sentence by sentence. to be negotiating sentence by sentence. to be negotiating sentence by sentence. And and believe me, I've talked to a lot And and believe me, I've talked to a lot And and believe me, I've talked to a lot of other authors who are in that of other authors who are in that of other authors who are in that situation. It's it's hard. It's really situation. It's it's hard. It's really situation. It's it's hard. It's really hard when both people want to kind of hard when both people want to kind of hard when both people want to kind of have that role. And and so what we have that role. And and so what we have that role. And and so what we figured out, I think what worked best figured out, I think what worked best figured out, I think what worked best for us is for us is for us is we kind of met with whatever's in the we kind of met with whatever's in the we kind of met with whatever's in the middle. And you would think, well, the middle. And you would think, well, the middle. And you would think, well, the research and the writing, isn't that research and the writing, isn't that research and the writing, isn't that everything? It's really not. everything? It's really not. everything? It's really not. >> It's about half of it. And the other >> It's about half of it. And the other >> It's about half of it. And the other half is is kind of pondering what you half is is kind of pondering what you half is is kind of pondering what you have and and um what is it telling you? have and and um what is it telling you? have and and um what is it telling you? You go do a bunch of research and you You go do a bunch of research and you You go do a bunch of research and you say, "Well, what are the patterns here?

say, "Well, what are the patterns here? say, "Well, what are the patterns here? What does this have in common? Could What does this have in common? Could What does this have in common? Could anybody do anything with this? It might anybody do anything with this? It might anybody do anything with this? It might be interesting, but we're trying to be interesting, but we're trying to be interesting, but we're trying to write a book that's practical. What's write a book that's practical. What's write a book that's practical. What's practical?" Uh, and so I mean I remember practical?" Uh, and so I mean I remember practical?" Uh, and so I mean I remember just hours and hours and hours on the just hours and hours and hours on the just hours and hours and hours on the phone just like noodling on things and phone just like noodling on things and phone just like noodling on things and is there something here and can people is there something here and can people is there something here and can people use this? Is this story good enough? Are use this? Is this story good enough? Are use this? Is this story good enough? Are people going to pay attention to this? people going to pay attention to this? people going to pay attention to this? And uh and so that was the real fun of And uh and so that was the real fun of And uh and so that was the real fun of it in the collaborative piece is the in it in the collaborative piece is the in it in the collaborative piece is the in between. between. between. >> What What did you do if you ran into >> What What did you do if you ran into >> What What did you do if you ran into disagreements? disagreements? disagreements? >> And maybe you didn't. >> And maybe you didn't. >> And maybe you didn't. >> No, we did. We we certainly did. Neither >> No, we did. We we certainly did. Neither >> No, we did. We we certainly did. Neither one of us are very um dramatic types or one of us are very um dramatic types or one of us are very um dramatic types or we're both pretty conflict averse. I we're both pretty conflict averse. I we're both pretty conflict averse. I mean I think we would just kind of talk mean I think we would just kind of talk mean I think we would just kind of talk it to death and and Chip I think is it to death and and Chip I think is it to death and and Chip I think is unusually good at that. I think I kind unusually good at that. I think I kind unusually good at that. I think I kind of picked up on that from him is just of picked up on that from him is just of picked up on that from him is just like um I mean it it's not like this is like um I mean it it's not like this is like um I mean it it's not like this is life or death stuff and it and there's life or death stuff and it and there's life or death stuff and it and there's no urgency like you got to you know do no urgency like you got to you know do no urgency like you got to you know do the surgery in the ER. So I we always the surgery in the ER. So I we always the surgery in the ER. So I we always had time on our side and and so we would had time on our side and and so we would had time on our side and and so we would just we would just work an issue to just we would just work an issue to just we would just work an issue to death basically until one of us was death basically until one of us was death basically until one of us was ready to give up ready to give up ready to give up >> your work and I hope I characterize it >> your work and I hope I characterize it >> your work and I hope I characterize it well. It always zeros in on how to make well. It always zeros in on how to make well. It always zeros in on how to make things better. But if there's a through things better. But if there's a through things better. But if there's a through line because how many books now have you line because how many books now have you line because how many books now have you written? You've got a few in written? You've got a few in written? You've got a few in >> six. Four with Chip and two solo. Yeah.

>> six. Four with Chip and two solo. Yeah. >> six. Four with Chip and two solo. Yeah. >> Yeah. So six. That's serious. Um what's >> Yeah. So six. That's serious. Um what's >> Yeah. So six. That's serious. Um what's the through line? Like can you see how the through line? Like can you see how the through line? Like can you see how all the dots are connected? Is there a all the dots are connected? Is there a all the dots are connected? Is there a meta theme or major theme that kind of meta theme or major theme that kind of meta theme or major theme that kind of runs through all six books? runs through all six books? runs through all six books? >> There there's no meta architecture per >> There there's no meta architecture per >> There there's no meta architecture per se, but but certainly a lot of themes in se, but but certainly a lot of themes in se, but but certainly a lot of themes in common. Um I I think they're all about common. Um I I think they're all about common. Um I I think they're all about how psychology and organizations how psychology and organizations how psychology and organizations intersect. Like if we understand more intersect. Like if we understand more intersect. Like if we understand more about the way we think, can that help us about the way we think, can that help us about the way we think, can that help us do better work together, set our do better work together, set our do better work together, set our aspirations higher? I think the the aspirations higher? I think the the aspirations higher? I think the the recurring themes involve change and and recurring themes involve change and and recurring themes involve change and and communication and uh and experience. Uh communication and uh and experience. Uh communication and uh and experience. Uh so um so there's no there's no sequence so um so there's no there's no sequence so um so there's no there's no sequence or anything formal but but they or anything formal but but they or anything formal but but they definitely share a common spirit. definitely share a common spirit. definitely share a common spirit. >> Yeah. I'd love to know um you know when >> Yeah. I'd love to know um you know when >> Yeah. I'd love to know um you know when you look at the landscape of leadership you look at the landscape of leadership you look at the landscape of leadership and it's changed a lot in 20 years like and it's changed a lot in 20 years like and it's changed a lot in 20 years like even think about marketing a book then even think about marketing a book then even think about marketing a book then versus now or you know AI or social versus now or you know AI or social versus now or you know AI or social media as it's morphed over the years media as it's morphed over the years media as it's morphed over the years we're we're we're the same but we're we're we're we're the same but we're we're we're we're the same but we're different. What is looking at the different. What is looking at the different. What is looking at the current landscape now is there a current landscape now is there a current landscape now is there a particular status quo belief in particular status quo belief in particular status quo belief in leadership or culture that you would leadership or culture that you would leadership or culture that you would love us to unlearn or abandon? It's sort love us to unlearn or abandon? It's sort love us to unlearn or abandon? It's sort of taken his truth, but you're like, of taken his truth, but you're like, of taken his truth, but you're like, "No, no, no, no. Guys, think again."

"No, no, no, no. Guys, think again." "No, no, no, no. Guys, think again." >> Oh, I got a hot take for you here. >> Oh, I got a hot take for you here. >> Oh, I got a hot take for you here. >> Great. Let's go. >> Great. Let's go. >> Great. Let's go. >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the >> Get ready. So, here it is. I think the bad idea is that bad idea is that bad idea is that the essence of what leaders do is solve the essence of what leaders do is solve the essence of what leaders do is solve problems. problems. problems. >> And and I think that that's wrong. And >> And and I think that that's wrong. And >> And and I think that that's wrong. And the essence of what leaders do is to the essence of what leaders do is to the essence of what leaders do is to fight for improvement. And those are not fight for improvement. And those are not fight for improvement. And those are not the same things. So, I'll give you I'll the same things. So, I'll give you I'll the same things. So, I'll give you I'll give you a really tangible example. give you a really tangible example. give you a really tangible example. you get some survey data back, employee you get some survey data back, employee you get some survey data back, employee engagement data, and like all employee engagement data, and like all employee engagement data, and like all employee engagement data, there's going to be a engagement data, there's going to be a engagement data, there's going to be a mix. There's going to be people who are mix. There's going to be people who are mix. There's going to be people who are super engaged and then there's going to super engaged and then there's going to super engaged and then there's going to be a bunch of people who are kind of in be a bunch of people who are kind of in be a bunch of people who are kind of in the middle and there's going to be the middle and there's going to be the middle and there's going to be people who are quite disengaged. people who are quite disengaged. people who are quite disengaged. Nine out of 10 leaders are going to look Nine out of 10 leaders are going to look Nine out of 10 leaders are going to look at that and their attention goes where? at that and their attention goes where? at that and their attention goes where? Boom. Right to the disengaged people, Boom. Right to the disengaged people, Boom. Right to the disengaged people, right? Because that is where the problem right? Because that is where the problem right? Because that is where the problem is, right? That's where the problem and is, right? That's where the problem and is, right? That's where the problem and then okay, well, let's let's dig into then okay, well, let's let's dig into then okay, well, let's let's dig into this. Let's do the forensics. what's this. Let's do the forensics. what's this. Let's do the forensics. what's going on? Why are you know why are they going on? Why are you know why are they going on? Why are you know why are they upset? What can we do to make things upset? What can we do to make things upset? What can we do to make things better? That is such a trap. And and I better? That is such a trap. And and I better? That is such a trap. And and I don't dispute that you can make problems don't dispute that you can make problems don't dispute that you can make problems better by addressing them. That's not better by addressing them. That's not better by addressing them. That's not part of the story. It's just that there part of the story. It's just that there part of the story. It's just that there is a bigger landscape here. And that is is a bigger landscape here. And that is is a bigger landscape here. And that is your job is not to ameliate those eight your job is not to ameliate those eight your job is not to ameliate those eight people and their uh dissatisfactions people and their uh dissatisfactions people and their uh dissatisfactions with the current environment. Your job with the current environment. Your job with the current environment. Your job is to create an environment that makes is to create an environment that makes is to create an environment that makes everybody more engaged in the next everybody more engaged in the next everybody more engaged in the next period. That's what I mean by period. That's what I mean by period. That's what I mean by improvement. And it's my contention that improvement. And it's my contention that improvement. And it's my contention that you're going to have an easier time you're going to have an easier time you're going to have an easier time doing that by studying what is working

doing that by studying what is working doing that by studying what is working rather than what's not. That's um that's rather than what's not. That's um that's rather than what's not. That's um that's something that uh that Chip and I call something that uh that Chip and I call something that uh that Chip and I call studying the bright spots. So, back to studying the bright spots. So, back to studying the bright spots. So, back to the engagement data. the engagement data. the engagement data. Why don't you take a moment to ponder Why don't you take a moment to ponder Why don't you take a moment to ponder why did that small cohort of people who why did that small cohort of people who why did that small cohort of people who seemed unusually engaged like what what seemed unusually engaged like what what seemed unusually engaged like what what makes them so happy? you know, why are makes them so happy? you know, why are makes them so happy? you know, why are they so charged up? If we can understand they so charged up? If we can understand they so charged up? If we can understand what's working for them, that opens the what's working for them, that opens the what's working for them, that opens the door to replicating that in a way that door to replicating that in a way that door to replicating that in a way that might make everybody more engaged. And might make everybody more engaged. And might make everybody more engaged. And and look, I'm not this is not to say and look, I'm not this is not to say and look, I'm not this is not to say ignore your problems. That's not really ignore your problems. That's not really ignore your problems. That's not really the moral. The moral is that we're we're the moral. The moral is that we're we're the moral. The moral is that we're we're hopelessly imbalanced. Like we spend 95% hopelessly imbalanced. Like we spend 95% hopelessly imbalanced. Like we spend 95% of our attention and time chasing of our attention and time chasing of our attention and time chasing problems. A and I think that if we're in problems. A and I think that if we're in problems. A and I think that if we're in the business of improvement, the business of improvement, the business of improvement, we can learn just as more and make just we can learn just as more and make just we can learn just as more and make just as much progress, if not more, by as much progress, if not more, by as much progress, if not more, by looking at the bright spots. So in in in looking at the bright spots. So in in in looking at the bright spots. So in in in my dream world, you go from spending 95% my dream world, you go from spending 95% my dream world, you go from spending 95% of your time on problems to maybe like of your time on problems to maybe like of your time on problems to maybe like 40%. And and the other 60% goes in 40%. And and the other 60% goes in 40%. And and the other 60% goes in studying and obsessing about like what's studying and obsessing about like what's studying and obsessing about like what's working now and how might we spread working now and how might we spread working now and how might we spread that?

that? that? >> I'd love to play that out a little bit. >> I'd love to play that out a little bit. >> I'd love to play that out a little bit. So if you extrapolate Dan, let's say you So if you extrapolate Dan, let's say you So if you extrapolate Dan, let's say you have two leaders. One focuses on the have two leaders. One focuses on the have two leaders. One focuses on the eight people who are disengaged. They're eight people who are disengaged. They're eight people who are disengaged. They're always fixing problems. They find the 8% always fixing problems. They find the 8% always fixing problems. They find the 8% 10% 20% that's wrong 10% 20% that's wrong 10% 20% that's wrong >> and they're always fixing it. >> and they're always fixing it. >> and they're always fixing it. >> Compared to leader number two, leader >> Compared to leader number two, leader >> Compared to leader number two, leader number two is focused on what's working number two is focused on what's working number two is focused on what's working and amplifying that. and amplifying that. and amplifying that. >> Plot that out over a couple of years. >> Plot that out over a couple of years. >> Plot that out over a couple of years. How are their organizations or even How are their organizations or even How are their organizations or even their leadership style different? their leadership style different? their leadership style different? Well, number one, I can almost promise Well, number one, I can almost promise Well, number one, I can almost promise you the bright spots leader has has you the bright spots leader has has you the bright spots leader has has better overall performance because what better overall performance because what better overall performance because what what it it's what it it's what it it's >> it's sort of what's the old cliche like >> it's sort of what's the old cliche like >> it's sort of what's the old cliche like um every unhappy marriage is unhappy in um every unhappy marriage is unhappy in um every unhappy marriage is unhappy in a different way or anyway I I'm going to a different way or anyway I I'm going to a different way or anyway I I'm going to mangle that. The point is um mangle that. The point is um mangle that. The point is um >> if you're attuned to problems like you >> if you're attuned to problems like you >> if you're attuned to problems like you know you can probably make them better know you can probably make them better know you can probably make them better >> but but partially fixing the problem >> but but partially fixing the problem >> but but partially fixing the problem doesn't elevate the norm for everybody doesn't elevate the norm for everybody doesn't elevate the norm for everybody else right because people may be um else right because people may be um else right because people may be um dissatisfied in different ways if you go dissatisfied in different ways if you go dissatisfied in different ways if you go to the people who are very engaged in to the people who are very engaged in to the people who are very engaged in the current environment try to the current environment try to the current environment try to understand why like I'll give you a understand why like I'll give you a understand why like I'll give you a tangible example so it's not all tangible example so it's not all tangible example so it's not all abstract uh there was a health system abstract uh there was a health system abstract uh there was a health system that ran this exact game plan on nurses.

that ran this exact game plan on nurses. that ran this exact game plan on nurses. They engagement data on nurses. They engagement data on nurses. They engagement data on nurses. Traditionally, like everybody else, Traditionally, like everybody else, Traditionally, like everybody else, they'd been obsessed about when are the they'd been obsessed about when are the they'd been obsessed about when are the nurses disengaged. And then somebody nurses disengaged. And then somebody nurses disengaged. And then somebody flipped it around and they said, "Hey, flipped it around and they said, "Hey, flipped it around and they said, "Hey, let's go talk to these nurses who have let's go talk to these nurses who have let's go talk to these nurses who have been here a long time, happy with the been here a long time, happy with the been here a long time, happy with the work." And long story short, they found work." And long story short, they found work." And long story short, they found that one of the things that was really a that one of the things that was really a that one of the things that was really a key to their engagement was a strong key to their engagement was a strong key to their engagement was a strong sense of nursing as an identity. You sense of nursing as an identity. You sense of nursing as an identity. You know, that that it was important to know, that that it was important to know, that that it was important to their sense of self. I'm a nurse and and their sense of self. I'm a nurse and and their sense of self. I'm a nurse and and and that's important. And they realized and that's important. And they realized and that's important. And they realized like, hey, this is not just they weren't like, hey, this is not just they weren't like, hey, this is not just they weren't just born with this sense, right? This just born with this sense, right? This just born with this sense, right? This was something that was it was incubated was something that was it was incubated was something that was it was incubated and and we can be more conscious and and and we can be more conscious and and and we can be more conscious and intentional about incubating it with intentional about incubating it with intentional about incubating it with everybody. And so that meant well, let's everybody. And so that meant well, let's everybody. And so that meant well, let's let's dial up mentorship programs and let's dial up mentorship programs and let's dial up mentorship programs and let's create recognition for things that let's create recognition for things that let's create recognition for things that that kind of show the best of what it that kind of show the best of what it that kind of show the best of what it means to be a nurse. And that's an means to be a nurse. And that's an means to be a nurse. And that's an example of what I mean that the seeds of example of what I mean that the seeds of example of what I mean that the seeds of improvement are often more readily improvement are often more readily improvement are often more readily available by studying what is working available by studying what is working available by studying what is working rather than what's not.

rather than what's not. rather than what's not. >> Today's episode is brought to you by the >> Today's episode is brought to you by the >> Today's episode is brought to you by the Church Network. Looking to lead your Church Network. Looking to lead your Church Network. Looking to lead your church with clarity, confidence, and church with clarity, confidence, and church with clarity, confidence, and connection? Well, join the Church connection? Well, join the Church connection? Well, join the Church Network. It's the premier association Network. It's the premier association Network. It's the premier association for church operational leaders and for church operational leaders and for church operational leaders and administrators. So whether you're administrators. So whether you're administrators. So whether you're navigating budgets, staffing, or tech navigating budgets, staffing, or tech navigating budgets, staffing, or tech transitions, TCN equips you with the transitions, TCN equips you with the transitions, TCN equips you with the practical tools, expert insights, and a practical tools, expert insights, and a practical tools, expert insights, and a nationwide community that simply gets nationwide community that simply gets nationwide community that simply gets it. Membership opens the door to it. Membership opens the door to it. Membership opens the door to practical resources, expert-led practical resources, expert-led practical resources, expert-led webinars, and a vibrant network of peers webinars, and a vibrant network of peers webinars, and a vibrant network of peers who understand the challenges you face. who understand the challenges you face. who understand the challenges you face. Plus, you'll stay ahead of trends and Plus, you'll stay ahead of trends and Plus, you'll stay ahead of trends and challenges with support tailored to your challenges with support tailored to your challenges with support tailored to your role. Don't lead alone. Join thousands role. Don't lead alone. Join thousands role. Don't lead alone. Join thousands of church professionals who have found of church professionals who have found of church professionals who have found encouragement, excellence, and encouragement, excellence, and encouragement, excellence, and inspiration through the church network. inspiration through the church network. inspiration through the church network. Visit the churchnetwork.com and become a Visit the churchnetwork.com and become a Visit the churchnetwork.com and become a member today because when your member today because when your member today because when your operations are well equipped, your operations are well equipped, your operations are well equipped, your ministry can move forward with strength. ministry can move forward with strength. ministry can move forward with strength. That's the churchnetwork.com. That's the churchnetwork.com. That's the churchnetwork.com. I'm going to think that you probably I'm going to think that you probably I'm going to think that you probably feel better internally as a leader, too, feel better internally as a leader, too, feel better internally as a leader, too, if you're focusing on what's right. I if you're focusing on what's right. I if you're focusing on what's right. I mean, if you've got 90% of people mean, if you've got 90% of people mean, if you've got 90% of people reasonably happy with what you're doing reasonably happy with what you're doing reasonably happy with what you're doing >> and 10% who are engaged, there's a >> and 10% who are engaged, there's a >> and 10% who are engaged, there's a certain point at which 10% 10% of the certain point at which 10% 10% of the certain point at which 10% 10% of the well, probably 20% of the internet's well, probably 20% of the internet's well, probably 20% of the internet's always going to be upset about always going to be upset about always going to be upset about something, right? Um, but 20% of your something, right? Um, but 20% of your something, right? Um, but 20% of your organization, 10% 5% always going to be organization, 10% 5% always going to be organization, 10% 5% always going to be a little bit out of joint. Uh, but then a little bit out of joint. Uh, but then a little bit out of joint. Uh, but then you got some raving fans and you've got you got some raving fans and you've got you got some raving fans and you've got some early adopters. And I think if you some early adopters. And I think if you some early adopters. And I think if you go to where the the movement is and the go to where the the movement is and the go to where the the movement is and the future is, you're probably going to be a

future is, you're probably going to be a future is, you're probably going to be a better leader and a happier leader, too. better leader and a happier leader, too. better leader and a happier leader, too. So, I want to talk Yeah. Eddie more on So, I want to talk Yeah. Eddie more on So, I want to talk Yeah. Eddie more on that. that. that. >> No, I'm just I'm really glad you brought >> No, I'm just I'm really glad you brought >> No, I'm just I'm really glad you brought up that point because um it feels better up that point because um it feels better up that point because um it feels better to to look at bright spots than it does to to look at bright spots than it does to to look at bright spots than it does to solve problems. it. I I'll give to solve problems. it. I I'll give to solve problems. it. I I'll give everybody listening a challenge. Like everybody listening a challenge. Like everybody listening a challenge. Like next time you're in a meeting next time you're in a meeting next time you're in a meeting >> where people are are dwelling on a >> where people are are dwelling on a >> where people are are dwelling on a problem and you're sensing that kind of problem and you're sensing that kind of problem and you're sensing that kind of frustration bordering on defeatism, you frustration bordering on defeatism, you frustration bordering on defeatism, you know, people's shoulders are sagging know, people's shoulders are sagging know, people's shoulders are sagging because it's a hard problem. It's not because it's a hard problem. It's not because it's a hard problem. It's not obvious how you're going to solve it. Be obvious how you're going to solve it. Be obvious how you're going to solve it. Be the person in the room who says, "Okay, the person in the room who says, "Okay, the person in the room who says, "Okay, hang on a second. We've been talking hang on a second. We've been talking hang on a second. We've been talking about the problems, but but look, even about the problems, but but look, even about the problems, but but look, even though attendance hasn't been growing though attendance hasn't been growing though attendance hasn't been growing the way we wanted it to, like it's not the way we wanted it to, like it's not the way we wanted it to, like it's not zero. Like, there are new people that zero. Like, there are new people that zero. Like, there are new people that have come in the church, like let's talk have come in the church, like let's talk have come in the church, like let's talk about them. Like, the last three about them. Like, the last three about them. Like, the last three families that joined, where did they families that joined, where did they families that joined, where did they come from, you know, how'd they find out come from, you know, how'd they find out come from, you know, how'd they find out about us? Did did someone bring them in? about us? Did did someone bring them in? about us? Did did someone bring them in? What was their experience like? Like, What was their experience like? Like, What was their experience like? Like, that gives you something to sink your that gives you something to sink your that gives you something to sink your teeth into in a positive direction. And teeth into in a positive direction. And teeth into in a positive direction. And and watch how the energy in the room and watch how the energy in the room and watch how the energy in the room changes when you reframe it that way.

changes when you reframe it that way. changes when you reframe it that way. What a great example. Okay, we had a lot What a great example. Okay, we had a lot What a great example. Okay, we had a lot of growth over 20 years and almost all of growth over 20 years and almost all of growth over 20 years and almost all the years were growth years, some of the years were growth years, some of the years were growth years, some of them very high growth years, but them very high growth years, but them very high growth years, but everybody hits a slump. We hit slumps everybody hits a slump. We hit slumps everybody hits a slump. We hit slumps and it's very easy to focus on who left and it's very easy to focus on who left and it's very easy to focus on who left or why people aren't coming or the good or why people aren't coming or the good or why people aren't coming or the good old days. And I think a lot of leaders old days. And I think a lot of leaders old days. And I think a lot of leaders get into, well, this is good enough. get into, well, this is good enough. get into, well, this is good enough. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like, at least we're not closing. At >> Like, at least we're not closing. At >> Like, at least we're not closing. At least we're not collapsing. But I love least we're not collapsing. But I love least we're not collapsing. But I love what you did because it brought me back what you did because it brought me back what you did because it brought me back to a couple of seasons where I basically to a couple of seasons where I basically to a couple of seasons where I basically had to pull that out of my hat. And I'm had to pull that out of my hat. And I'm had to pull that out of my hat. And I'm like, look, haven't had any baptisms in like, look, haven't had any baptisms in like, look, haven't had any baptisms in six months. Haven't seen a lot of new six months. Haven't seen a lot of new six months. Haven't seen a lot of new people, but somebody new showed up last people, but somebody new showed up last people, but somebody new showed up last Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. >> Let's focus on them. Like, where did >> Let's focus on them. Like, where did >> Let's focus on them. Like, where did they come from? Who do they know? What they come from? Who do they know? What they come from? Who do they know? What do they know? What are some other do they know? What are some other do they know? What are some other stories? Is there any stories? Is there stories? Is there any stories? Is there stories? Is there any stories? Is there a single story of life change you've a single story of life change you've a single story of life change you've heard in the last heard in the last heard in the last >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> month? And that's a spark. It's a spark >> month? And that's a spark. It's a spark >> month? And that's a spark. It's a spark not only because it's a morale booster, not only because it's a morale booster, not only because it's a morale booster, but it's a spark, Dan. I think because but it's a spark, Dan. I think because but it's a spark, Dan. I think because it's like, oh, this isn't dead. It might it's like, oh, this isn't dead. It might it's like, oh, this isn't dead. It might be slow right now. We might be in a be slow right now. We might be in a be slow right now. We might be in a lull, but like God's on the move in our lull, but like God's on the move in our lull, but like God's on the move in our language. You know, this is this is not language. You know, this is this is not language. You know, this is this is not uh a lost cause. And it gives you clues uh a lost cause. And it gives you clues uh a lost cause. And it gives you clues as to where the next momentum is coming as to where the next momentum is coming as to where the next momentum is coming from, from, from, >> right? If you actually study those two >> right? If you actually study those two >> right? If you actually study those two or three bright spots on the horizon, or three bright spots on the horizon, or three bright spots on the horizon, it's like, "Oh, I wonder if that's a new it's like, "Oh, I wonder if that's a new it's like, "Oh, I wonder if that's a new trend." Like, did you notice all of trend." Like, did you notice all of trend." Like, did you notice all of these people had moved? The five people these people had moved? The five people these people had moved? The five people who came in the last month, they had all who came in the last month, they had all who came in the last month, they had all moved.

moved. moved. >> They're all in their early 30s, >> They're all in their early 30s, >> They're all in their early 30s, >> and they somehow all their kids go to >> and they somehow all their kids go to >> and they somehow all their kids go to this elementary school. this elementary school. this elementary school. >> I don't know. I'm just connecting dots, >> I don't know. I'm just connecting dots, >> I don't know. I'm just connecting dots, right? But then you start to find the right? But then you start to find the right? But then you start to find the stuff that could lead you to the future. stuff that could lead you to the future. stuff that could lead you to the future. >> And and the best thing, I mean, to your >> And and the best thing, I mean, to your >> And and the best thing, I mean, to your point, the best thing about bright spots point, the best thing about bright spots point, the best thing about bright spots is that they're relative. Bright spots is that they're relative. Bright spots is that they're relative. Bright spots are the best of what's possible today are the best of what's possible today are the best of what's possible today and they're not rare. I mean, that's and they're not rare. I mean, that's and they're not rare. I mean, that's something I want to underline is bright something I want to underline is bright something I want to underline is bright spots are are an every week kind of tool spots are are an every week kind of tool spots are are an every week kind of tool of leadership. And what I mean is if of leadership. And what I mean is if of leadership. And what I mean is if your kid comes home with a report card your kid comes home with a report card your kid comes home with a report card and it's like F, D, D, C minus, C minus, and it's like F, D, D, C minus, C minus, and it's like F, D, D, C minus, C minus, B. Well, B is a bright spot. It's a huge B. Well, B is a bright spot. It's a huge B. Well, B is a bright spot. It's a huge bright spot. bright spot. bright spot. >> It may not be a bright spot in the >> It may not be a bright spot in the >> It may not be a bright spot in the scheme of the universe. There's a lot of scheme of the universe. There's a lot of scheme of the universe. There's a lot of kids making A+es in in the world, but kids making A+es in in the world, but kids making A+es in in the world, but for your kid right now, B is a bright for your kid right now, B is a bright for your kid right now, B is a bright spot. And that's something to grab on to spot. And that's something to grab on to spot. And that's something to grab on to because if you could get all those other because if you could get all those other because if you could get all those other grades up to B, you would have done grades up to B, you would have done grades up to B, you would have done yourself a a huge service. And so that's yourself a a huge service. And so that's yourself a a huge service. And so that's why bright spots are relative is is a why bright spots are relative is is a why bright spots are relative is is a key thing to latch on to because because key thing to latch on to because because key thing to latch on to because because even if in in the whole you're not even if in in the whole you're not even if in in the whole you're not progressing as quickly as you think you progressing as quickly as you think you progressing as quickly as you think you are. If there is a difference in are. If there is a difference in are. If there is a difference in performance by definition some things performance by definition some things performance by definition some things are going to be better than others and are going to be better than others and are going to be better than others and those things are worthy of study.

those things are worthy of study. those things are worthy of study. >> Yeah. I'm so glad we went there. So I >> Yeah. I'm so glad we went there. So I >> Yeah. I'm so glad we went there. So I want to talk about change. That's what want to talk about change. That's what want to talk about change. That's what your new book is. And then if we have your new book is. And then if we have your new book is. And then if we have time I'd love to talk about the power of time I'd love to talk about the power of time I'd love to talk about the power of moments. Um, another another great book moments. Um, another another great book moments. Um, another another great book that that you wrote. Um, I'd love to that that you wrote. Um, I'd love to that that you wrote. Um, I'd love to know with change, you know, you just did know with change, you know, you just did know with change, you know, you just did this major work on it. What makes change this major work on it. What makes change this major work on it. What makes change so hard? so hard? so hard? I think that the number one thing that I think that the number one thing that I think that the number one thing that makes change hard is that we have spent makes change hard is that we have spent makes change hard is that we have spent a lot of time, potentially months or a lot of time, potentially months or a lot of time, potentially months or years, practicing the old way of doing years, practicing the old way of doing years, practicing the old way of doing things. M things. M things. M >> there there's a great video on YouTube I >> there there's a great video on YouTube I >> there there's a great video on YouTube I came across years ago. It was this guy came across years ago. It was this guy came across years ago. It was this guy who who I think the spirit of the series who who I think the spirit of the series who who I think the spirit of the series was he was giving him himself various was he was giving him himself various was he was giving him himself various personal challenges. And in one he took personal challenges. And in one he took personal challenges. And in one he took a bike and he kind of rewired it so that a bike and he kind of rewired it so that a bike and he kind of rewired it so that if you turned the handlebars of the bike if you turned the handlebars of the bike if you turned the handlebars of the bike to the left the wheel would go to the to the left the wheel would go to the to the left the wheel would go to the right. right. right. >> So he's basically created like a >> So he's basically created like a >> So he's basically created like a backwards bike. backwards bike. backwards bike. >> I'm a I'm a cyclist. I'm like oh that's >> I'm a I'm a cyclist. I'm like oh that's >> I'm a I'm a cyclist. I'm like oh that's death. But go ahead. Yeah.

death. But go ahead. Yeah. death. But go ahead. Yeah. >> And so, um, so he's really excited to >> And so, um, so he's really excited to >> And so, um, so he's really excited to try to learn how to ride this backwards try to learn how to ride this backwards try to learn how to ride this backwards bike. And in the video, you can see, I bike. And in the video, you can see, I bike. And in the video, you can see, I mean, it's not like something where he mean, it's not like something where he mean, it's not like something where he catches on to the trick in a in a couple catches on to the trick in a in a couple catches on to the trick in a in a couple of tries and gets it. It literally takes of tries and gets it. It literally takes of tries and gets it. It literally takes him not hours, not days, not even weeks. him not hours, not days, not even weeks. him not hours, not days, not even weeks. It takes him months to kind of perfect It takes him months to kind of perfect It takes him months to kind of perfect riding the backwards bike. And and if riding the backwards bike. And and if riding the backwards bike. And and if you kind of zoom out of that story and you kind of zoom out of that story and you kind of zoom out of that story and you think about it you think about it you think about it from minute one, he knew intellectually from minute one, he knew intellectually from minute one, he knew intellectually what he was trying to do, right? Okay. what he was trying to do, right? Okay. what he was trying to do, right? Okay. Same thing as a bike, but it's just Same thing as a bike, but it's just Same thing as a bike, but it's just backwards. Got it. Okay. So, how much backwards. Got it. Okay. So, how much backwards. Got it. Okay. So, how much was that information worth in the scheme was that information worth in the scheme was that information worth in the scheme of the change effort? Very, very little. of the change effort? Very, very little. of the change effort? Very, very little. Right. But in organizations, we tend to Right. But in organizations, we tend to Right. But in organizations, we tend to think the information is like 90% of it. think the information is like 90% of it. think the information is like 90% of it. Like if people just understand this is Like if people just understand this is Like if people just understand this is what we're doing and this is where we're what we're doing and this is where we're what we're doing and this is where we're going, it'll be poof, we'll get there. going, it'll be poof, we'll get there. going, it'll be poof, we'll get there. No. The backward bike is is actually an No. The backward bike is is actually an No. The backward bike is is actually an uncannily accurate metaphor for what uncannily accurate metaphor for what uncannily accurate metaphor for what we're going through in organizations. we're going through in organizations. we're going through in organizations. It's like even if we understand the new It's like even if we understand the new It's like even if we understand the new direction even if as in this case even direction even if as in this case even direction even if as in this case even if we want to still going to be hard if we want to still going to be hard if we want to still going to be hard because of all that practice all that because of all that practice all that because of all that practice all that kind of marrow level knowledge that we kind of marrow level knowledge that we kind of marrow level knowledge that we have of the old way of doing things.

have of the old way of doing things. have of the old way of doing things. >> You know you can probably relate to >> You know you can probably relate to >> You know you can probably relate to this. Reminds me, have you driven in this. Reminds me, have you driven in this. Reminds me, have you driven in Australia, New Zealand or London? Wrong Australia, New Zealand or London? Wrong Australia, New Zealand or London? Wrong side of the road. side of the road. side of the road. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I've done that literally probably >> Yeah. I've done that literally probably >> Yeah. I've done that literally probably at this point for months of my life over at this point for months of my life over at this point for months of my life over the last 15 years or so, just, you know, the last 15 years or so, just, you know, the last 15 years or so, just, you know, with long trips to to those countries. with long trips to to those countries. with long trips to to those countries. >> And my wife and I rent a car and I'm >> And my wife and I rent a car and I'm >> And my wife and I rent a car and I'm like, this is everything I learned is like, this is everything I learned is like, this is everything I learned is wrong and everything is backwards, Dave. wrong and everything is backwards, Dave. wrong and everything is backwards, Dave. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, we'll approach an intersection. Of >> So, we'll approach an intersection. Of >> So, we'll approach an intersection. Of course, you know, in North America, it's course, you know, in North America, it's course, you know, in North America, it's a left turn. That's the dangerous one a left turn. That's the dangerous one a left turn. That's the dangerous one there. It's the right turn. And I'm like there. It's the right turn. And I'm like there. It's the right turn. And I'm like I'm going into the intersection going, I'm going into the intersection going, I'm going into the intersection going, "You have to do the opposite. You have "You have to do the opposite. You have "You have to do the opposite. You have to do the opposite." I think the longest to do the opposite." I think the longest to do the opposite." I think the longest I've stayed in Australia is maybe a I've stayed in Australia is maybe a I've stayed in Australia is maybe a month. And maybe by week four, it's month. And maybe by week four, it's month. And maybe by week four, it's starting to not feel like an existential starting to not feel like an existential starting to not feel like an existential crisis every time I make a turn. crisis every time I make a turn. crisis every time I make a turn. >> I I vividly remember I was driving in in >> I I vividly remember I was driving in in >> I I vividly remember I was driving in in Scotland and and my wife just spent most Scotland and and my wife just spent most Scotland and and my wife just spent most of the trip just like gasping and of the trip just like gasping and of the trip just like gasping and wincing. It was just like, you know, wincing. It was just like, you know, wincing. It was just like, you know, >> oh, your marriage survived. >> oh, your marriage survived. >> oh, your marriage survived. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congratulations. Yeah, it's just um it's just contrary to Yeah, it's just um it's just contrary to Yeah, it's just um it's just contrary to our instincts, you know. Michael Jordan our instincts, you know. Michael Jordan our instincts, you know. Michael Jordan said practice doesn't make perfect.

said practice doesn't make perfect. said practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent, you know. So, Practice makes permanent, you know. So, Practice makes permanent, you know. So, he's like um if you practice shooting a he's like um if you practice shooting a he's like um if you practice shooting a jump shot the wrong way, jump shot the wrong way, jump shot the wrong way, >> um you're just going to get better at >> um you're just going to get better at >> um you're just going to get better at shooting a jump shot the wrong way. And shooting a jump shot the wrong way. And shooting a jump shot the wrong way. And and and so we've been practicing the old and and so we've been practicing the old and and so we've been practicing the old way of doing things. Uh and and that way of doing things. Uh and and that way of doing things. Uh and and that becomes the burden. That becomes the becomes the burden. That becomes the becomes the burden. That becomes the inertia that makes the new thing more inertia that makes the new thing more inertia that makes the new thing more difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's >> a great answer. I teach on change a lot. >> a great answer. I teach on change a lot. >> a great answer. I teach on change a lot. have never thought about it from that have never thought about it from that have never thought about it from that perspective. That's really helpful. perspective. That's really helpful. perspective. That's really helpful. What's one thing about change, Dan, that What's one thing about change, Dan, that What's one thing about change, Dan, that most leaders don't understand? most leaders don't understand? most leaders don't understand? >> We talked about this a little bit >> We talked about this a little bit >> We talked about this a little bit earlier, but um I just want to come back earlier, but um I just want to come back earlier, but um I just want to come back to it. And that is that knowledge is not to it. And that is that knowledge is not to it. And that is that knowledge is not enough to spark change. M and and I'll enough to spark change. M and and I'll enough to spark change. M and and I'll prove it to you right now that everybody prove it to you right now that everybody prove it to you right now that everybody listening to this there is something listening to this there is something listening to this there is something that you're doing in your life right now that you're doing in your life right now that you're doing in your life right now where you know maybe it's something you where you know maybe it's something you where you know maybe it's something you eat too much of or drink too much of or eat too much of or drink too much of or eat too much of or drink too much of or maybe it's a relationship you're in maybe it's a relationship you're in maybe it's a relationship you're in that's not good for you and you persist that's not good for you and you persist that's not good for you and you persist in or maybe it's some self-sabotaging in or maybe it's some self-sabotaging in or maybe it's some self-sabotaging pattern of behavior like pattern of behavior like pattern of behavior like procrastination. whatever it is, you procrastination. whatever it is, you procrastination. whatever it is, you have all the information that you need have all the information that you need have all the information that you need to know that that thing you're doing is to know that that thing you're doing is to know that that thing you're doing is not good for you and that you should not good for you and that you should not good for you and that you should knock it off and you're still doing it.

knock it off and you're still doing it. knock it off and you're still doing it. Right? That is something that 100% of Right? That is something that 100% of Right? That is something that 100% of people listening to this can agree with. people listening to this can agree with. people listening to this can agree with. I promise you. And and um and the proof I promise you. And and um and the proof I promise you. And and um and the proof is is that knowledge is not enough to is is that knowledge is not enough to is is that knowledge is not enough to spark change. Like change is generally spark change. Like change is generally spark change. Like change is generally an emotional process. like uh something an emotional process. like uh something an emotional process. like uh something changes, we feel something different. changes, we feel something different. changes, we feel something different. John Carter, the the organizational John Carter, the the organizational John Carter, the the organizational change guru, uh had a great way to put change guru, uh had a great way to put change guru, uh had a great way to put it. He said, "What what happens in it. He said, "What what happens in it. He said, "What what happens in organizations is that people see organizations is that people see organizations is that people see something that makes them feel something something that makes them feel something something that makes them feel something that leads to the change. It's see feel that leads to the change. It's see feel that leads to the change. It's see feel change." And I just I love that cuz I change." And I just I love that cuz I change." And I just I love that cuz I think that's a much more accurate think that's a much more accurate think that's a much more accurate description than the way we think about description than the way we think about description than the way we think about change. change. change. >> So what would an example be? and feel >> So what would an example be? and feel >> So what would an example be? and feel free to pick from the business world or free to pick from the business world or free to pick from the business world or wherever if you see feel and then are wherever if you see feel and then are wherever if you see feel and then are you know along on board with the change. you know along on board with the change. you know along on board with the change. >> Well, let me go back to Connor because >> Well, let me go back to Connor because >> Well, let me go back to Connor because he has maybe the best example I've ever he has maybe the best example I've ever he has maybe the best example I've ever read of this. It is read of this. It is read of this. It is >> another podcast alumnist. So there you >> another podcast alumnist. So there you >> another podcast alumnist. So there you go. Yeah. go. Yeah. go. Yeah. >> Well, hopefully he didn't tell this >> Well, hopefully he didn't tell this >> Well, hopefully he didn't tell this story. Maybe I'll I'll story. Maybe I'll I'll story. Maybe I'll I'll go. Um so it starts with a guy named go. Um so it starts with a guy named go. Um so it starts with a guy named John Stegner who's a finance guy in a John Stegner who's a finance guy in a John Stegner who's a finance guy in a manufacturing firm and he has observed manufacturing firm and he has observed manufacturing firm and he has observed that a lot of the factories they own are that a lot of the factories they own are that a lot of the factories they own are doing their own purchasing you know doing their own purchasing you know doing their own purchasing you know buying their own supplies but they're buying their own supplies but they're buying their own supplies but they're doing it independently and so being a doing it independently and so being a doing it independently and so being a good finance guy he's like aha well if good finance guy he's like aha well if good finance guy he's like aha well if we do centralized purchasing you know we do centralized purchasing you know we do centralized purchasing you know then we can get some clout we can order then we can get some clout we can order then we can get some clout we can order bigger numbers we can save a bunch of bigger numbers we can save a bunch of bigger numbers we can save a bunch of money he had estimated that they could money he had estimated that they could money he had estimated that they could save actually billions of dollars over save actually billions of dollars over save actually billions of dollars over 10 years by doing this I This is not a a

10 years by doing this I This is not a a 10 years by doing this I This is not a a small fry idea. So he tries the small fry idea. So he tries the small fry idea. So he tries the information thing like he he shares the information thing like he he shares the information thing like he he shares the models, he shares this information, he models, he shares this information, he models, he shares this information, he he kind of waits for the hosanas to rain he kind of waits for the hosanas to rain he kind of waits for the hosanas to rain down upon him from his colleagues but down upon him from his colleagues but down upon him from his colleagues but but goes nowhere. but goes nowhere. but goes nowhere. So then he changes directions. He hires So then he changes directions. He hires So then he changes directions. He hires an intern one summer to go around to all an intern one summer to go around to all an intern one summer to go around to all the factories that this company owns to the factories that this company owns to the factories that this company owns to collect a sample of one kind of product collect a sample of one kind of product collect a sample of one kind of product that he knows they're all buying on that he knows they're all buying on that he knows they're all buying on their own and that's work gloves. So the their own and that's work gloves. So the their own and that's work gloves. So the intern goes around kind of laboriously intern goes around kind of laboriously intern goes around kind of laboriously gathers up every kind of glove that's gathers up every kind of glove that's gathers up every kind of glove that's out there. 424 different kinds of gloves out there. 424 different kinds of gloves out there. 424 different kinds of gloves or what are out there. or what are out there. or what are out there. >> John did not tell the story by the way. >> John did not tell the story by the way. >> John did not tell the story by the way. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and then they trace what was paid for >> Um and then they trace what was paid for >> Um and then they trace what was paid for every pair of those gloves. They put every pair of those gloves. They put every pair of those gloves. They put little price tags on the gloves to little price tags on the gloves to little price tags on the gloves to represent that. Bring the gloves back to represent that. Bring the gloves back to represent that. Bring the gloves back to the executive boardroom. Dump them all the executive boardroom. Dump them all the executive boardroom. Dump them all on a table. So boardroom table covered on a table. So boardroom table covered on a table. So boardroom table covered with gloves. Stegner invites his with gloves. Stegner invites his with gloves. Stegner invites his colleagues to come see this. And they colleagues to come see this. And they colleagues to come see this. And they kind of go through this this mental kind of go through this this mental kind of go through this this mental reckoning process. They're like, "John, reckoning process. They're like, "John, reckoning process. They're like, "John, we really buy this many different kinds we really buy this many different kinds we really buy this many different kinds of gloves." He's like, "Yep, $424. We of gloves." He's like, "Yep, $424. We of gloves." He's like, "Yep, $424. We do." And then they notice on the price do." And then they notice on the price do." And then they notice on the price tags, two pairs of gloves look to be tags, two pairs of gloves look to be tags, two pairs of gloves look to be identical, but in Oklahoma they're identical, but in Oklahoma they're identical, but in Oklahoma they're paying $11 a pair, and in Ohio they're paying $11 a pair, and in Ohio they're paying $11 a pair, and in Ohio they're paying $19 a pair. And they're like, paying $19 a pair. And they're like, paying $19 a pair. And they're like, "John, we're paying radically different "John, we're paying radically different "John, we're paying radically different prices for the same pair of gloves."

prices for the same pair of gloves." prices for the same pair of gloves." Yep, that's what we're doing. Yep, Yep, that's what we're doing. Yep, Yep, that's what we're doing. Yep, that's right. And he said that they that's right. And he said that they that's right. And he said that they would walk out of the room just shaking would walk out of the room just shaking would walk out of the room just shaking their head saying, "John, this is crazy. their head saying, "John, this is crazy. their head saying, "John, this is crazy. we got to fix this behavior. Will you we got to fix this behavior. Will you we got to fix this behavior. Will you come back to us when you have some come back to us when you have some come back to us when you have some ideas? ideas? ideas? And within months, he has the green And within months, he has the green And within months, he has the green light to do centralized purchasing. light to do centralized purchasing. light to do centralized purchasing. >> He transferred ownership to the group. >> He transferred ownership to the group. >> He transferred ownership to the group. >> He transferred ownership and and back to >> He transferred ownership and and back to >> He transferred ownership and and back to Carter's model see change. Like now you Carter's model see change. Like now you Carter's model see change. Like now you can really see how that comes alive, can really see how that comes alive, can really see how that comes alive, right? right? right? >> It wasn't enough to know that this was a >> It wasn't enough to know that this was a >> It wasn't enough to know that this was a problem. It wasn't even enough to model problem. It wasn't even enough to model problem. It wasn't even enough to model the economic consequences. You had to the economic consequences. You had to the economic consequences. You had to show them something that got them to show them something that got them to show them something that got them to feel something. Hey, this is nuts. we feel something. Hey, this is nuts. we feel something. Hey, this is nuts. we shouldn't do things this way that led to shouldn't do things this way that led to shouldn't do things this way that led to the change. I think that's such a the change. I think that's such a the change. I think that's such a powerful idea. powerful idea. powerful idea. >> You know, it's really interesting. We >> You know, it's really interesting. We >> You know, it's really interesting. We were just literally a couple hours were just literally a couple hours were just literally a couple hours before we hit record on this podcast, I before we hit record on this podcast, I before we hit record on this podcast, I was talking with one of my team members was talking with one of my team members was talking with one of my team members and we had like something we weren't and we had like something we weren't and we had like something we weren't expecting yesterday trying to figure out expecting yesterday trying to figure out expecting yesterday trying to figure out what to do with it and I'm meeting with what to do with it and I'm meeting with what to do with it and I'm meeting with another party that's a little bit another party that's a little bit another party that's a little bit external to the organization. And the external to the organization. And the external to the organization. And the question was, do we come with a decision question was, do we come with a decision question was, do we come with a decision like this is what we're going to do? And like this is what we're going to do? And like this is what we're going to do? And I I texted back after a phone call and I I I texted back after a phone call and I I I texted back after a phone call and I said, you know, I really have found that said, you know, I really have found that said, you know, I really have found that if I'm working with, you know, a if I'm working with, you know, a if I'm working with, you know, a governing body or board or an outside governing body or board or an outside governing body or board or an outside person, one of the best things to do is person, one of the best things to do is person, one of the best things to do is to say, hey, we have this problem. We've to say, hey, we have this problem. We've to say, hey, we have this problem. We've thought about it. We got a couple of thought about it. We got a couple of thought about it. We got a couple of options. What's your input? What do you options. What's your input? What do you options. What's your input? What do you think? What's your wisdom? Nine times think? What's your wisdom? Nine times think? What's your wisdom? Nine times out of 10, they're like, you do what you out of 10, they're like, you do what you out of 10, they're like, you do what you think is best. Like, awesome. Sometimes think is best. Like, awesome. Sometimes think is best. Like, awesome. Sometimes they have like a third option I never they have like a third option I never they have like a third option I never thought of or a fifth option I never thought of or a fifth option I never thought of or a fifth option I never thought of. But nine times out of 10

thought of. But nine times out of 10 thought of. But nine times out of 10 it's going to be exactly what I was it's going to be exactly what I was it's going to be exactly what I was going to do anyway. But now they have going to do anyway. But now they have going to do anyway. But now they have buy in. buy in. buy in. >> Now they have ownership >> Now they have ownership >> Now they have ownership >> cuz it's kind of like that. >> cuz it's kind of like that. >> cuz it's kind of like that. >> Absolutely. Because now >> Absolutely. Because now >> Absolutely. Because now >> think about it from his colleagues >> think about it from his colleagues >> think about it from his colleagues perspective like the shift that happened perspective like the shift that happened perspective like the shift that happened there. So he comes to them and he has an there. So he comes to them and he has an there. So he comes to them and he has an idea and he's trying to sell his idea to idea and he's trying to sell his idea to idea and he's trying to sell his idea to them. And so what stance? It puts them them. And so what stance? It puts them them. And so what stance? It puts them in a critical stance like okay let me in a critical stance like okay let me in a critical stance like okay let me >> sell the problem. >> sell the problem. >> sell the problem. >> Exactly right. Exactly right. And then >> Exactly right. Exactly right. And then >> Exactly right. Exactly right. And then when you sell people on the problem they when you sell people on the problem they when you sell people on the problem they become receptive to the solution versus become receptive to the solution versus become receptive to the solution versus if you just come in with a prepackaged if you just come in with a prepackaged if you just come in with a prepackaged solution you're like hey this is a good solution you're like hey this is a good solution you're like hey this is a good idea. Why don't you get on board? It's idea. Why don't you get on board? It's idea. Why don't you get on board? It's like it puts them just in a different like it puts them just in a different like it puts them just in a different role than when it's their epiphany. role than when it's their epiphany. role than when it's their epiphany. >> Yeah. Yeah. Anything else on change that >> Yeah. Yeah. Anything else on change that >> Yeah. Yeah. Anything else on change that really stood out to you? Do you mind um really stood out to you? Do you mind um really stood out to you? Do you mind um this the opening story of the book, your this the opening story of the book, your this the opening story of the book, your your book is really surprising and your book is really surprising and your book is really surprising and compelling. The book's called Reset by compelling. The book's called Reset by compelling. The book's called Reset by the way, but the story about I think the way, but the story about I think the way, but the story about I think it's shipping and receiving at the it's shipping and receiving at the it's shipping and receiving at the hospital.

hospital. hospital. >> Um can you walk people through that >> Um can you walk people through that >> Um can you walk people through that because that sounds everybody has known because that sounds everybody has known because that sounds everybody has known an organization like that and nobody an organization like that and nobody an organization like that and nobody would know how to solve that problem. would know how to solve that problem. would know how to solve that problem. >> Yes. Uh there's a reason I put this >> Yes. Uh there's a reason I put this >> Yes. Uh there's a reason I put this story first. I I just love this. So this story first. I I just love this. So this story first. I I just love this. So this is Northwestern Memorial Hospital and it is Northwestern Memorial Hospital and it is Northwestern Memorial Hospital and it and it starts in the receiving area, you and it starts in the receiving area, you and it starts in the receiving area, you know, the place where they they take know, the place where they they take know, the place where they they take supplies in and out and get them to the supplies in and out and get them to the supplies in and out and get them to the right place in the hospital, surgical right place in the hospital, surgical right place in the hospital, surgical gloves or medicines or whatever. And for gloves or medicines or whatever. And for gloves or medicines or whatever. And for years, the norm had been that it took years, the norm had been that it took years, the norm had been that it took about 3 days to get supplies from the about 3 days to get supplies from the about 3 days to get supplies from the receiving area to their appropriate receiving area to their appropriate receiving area to their appropriate place in the hospital. So 3 days to get place in the hospital. So 3 days to get place in the hospital. So 3 days to get from, you know, the basement of the from, you know, the basement of the from, you know, the basement of the hospital to the third floor. hospital to the third floor. hospital to the third floor. >> And may have arrived. We don't know. >> And may have arrived. We don't know. >> And may have arrived. We don't know. >> Exactly. Exactly. And they spent a lot >> Exactly. Exactly. And they spent a lot >> Exactly. Exactly. And they spent a lot of time taking calls on the phone from, of time taking calls on the phone from, of time taking calls on the phone from, you know, nurses irritated that you know, nurses irritated that you know, nurses irritated that something hadn't arrived and they'd have something hadn't arrived and they'd have something hadn't arrived and they'd have to go chase down. Well, what's the to go chase down. Well, what's the to go chase down. Well, what's the location? Blah blah blah. And and they location? Blah blah blah. And and they location? Blah blah blah. And and they had kind of adapted to this like because had kind of adapted to this like because had kind of adapted to this like because when you live in a situation like that when you live in a situation like that when you live in a situation like that for years, you just it's not that they for years, you just it's not that they for years, you just it's not that they thought they were killing it. It's just thought they were killing it. It's just thought they were killing it. It's just that they thought, well, this is a that they thought, well, this is a that they thought, well, this is a complex business and it's always taken complex business and it's always taken complex business and it's always taken three days. It probably always will take three days. It probably always will take three days. It probably always will take three days. You just kind of shrug your three days. You just kind of shrug your three days. You just kind of shrug your shoulders and move on. Well, so uh a a shoulders and move on. Well, so uh a a shoulders and move on. Well, so uh a a new leader comes into the unit, a guy new leader comes into the unit, a guy new leader comes into the unit, a guy named Paul Suitt, who had some named Paul Suitt, who had some named Paul Suitt, who had some background in lean manufacturing. And so background in lean manufacturing. And so background in lean manufacturing. And so he immediately spotted some things that he immediately spotted some things that he immediately spotted some things that he knew were a little wonky, but you he knew were a little wonky, but you he knew were a little wonky, but you know, to the point of our conversation, know, to the point of our conversation, know, to the point of our conversation, he knew it couldn't just be his idea.

he knew it couldn't just be his idea. he knew it couldn't just be his idea. Like he can't come in just wagging his Like he can't come in just wagging his Like he can't come in just wagging his finger like, "You guys are doing it finger like, "You guys are doing it finger like, "You guys are doing it wrong and I'm I'm the master and so wrong and I'm I'm the master and so wrong and I'm I'm the master and so listen up." he had to figure out how listen up." he had to figure out how listen up." he had to figure out how does he bring them along? And and so he does he bring them along? And and so he does he bring them along? And and so he starts by asking them, "Hey, what are starts by asking them, "Hey, what are starts by asking them, "Hey, what are some of the things that bug you that some of the things that bug you that some of the things that bug you that cause friction or get in your way?" And cause friction or get in your way?" And cause friction or get in your way?" And so they're bringing up things that are so they're bringing up things that are so they're bringing up things that are pretty small. They said, "Well, some of pretty small. They said, "Well, some of pretty small. They said, "Well, some of the carts that we use to push around the the carts that we use to push around the the carts that we use to push around the packages, they have those wonky jangly packages, they have those wonky jangly packages, they have those wonky jangly wheels like you get on supermarket wheels like you get on supermarket wheels like you get on supermarket shopping carts sometimes." And Paul Sea shopping carts sometimes." And Paul Sea shopping carts sometimes." And Paul Sea says, "Okay, well, we're going to fix says, "Okay, well, we're going to fix says, "Okay, well, we're going to fix the wheels or get new carts, whatever it the wheels or get new carts, whatever it the wheels or get new carts, whatever it is. that shouldn't be an irritant for is. that shouldn't be an irritant for is. that shouldn't be an irritant for you. So, he's showing them he's paying you. So, he's showing them he's paying you. So, he's showing them he's paying attention to them. You know, he's not attention to them. You know, he's not attention to them. You know, he's not coming in with a with an agenda. And coming in with a with an agenda. And coming in with a with an agenda. And then he asked them, hey, will you study then he asked them, hey, will you study then he asked them, hey, will you study the process with me with an eye toward the process with me with an eye toward the process with me with an eye toward making things better for the people we making things better for the people we making things better for the people we serve and maybe making things better for serve and maybe making things better for serve and maybe making things better for you at the same time? And and they they you at the same time? And and they they you at the same time? And and they they kind of gave him some grace. Yeah, we'll kind of gave him some grace. Yeah, we'll kind of gave him some grace. Yeah, we'll do that. And so they spent an hour every do that. And so they spent an hour every do that. And so they spent an hour every day for 12 working days in a row just day for 12 working days in a row just day for 12 working days in a row just walking the line like following through walking the line like following through walking the line like following through from where the packages came in from the from where the packages came in from the from where the packages came in from the UPS and FedEx trucks through the line UPS and FedEx trucks through the line UPS and FedEx trucks through the line scanning in inventory to their eventual scanning in inventory to their eventual scanning in inventory to their eventual homes. And and long story short, the homes. And and long story short, the homes. And and long story short, the number one thing that they found number one thing that they found number one thing that they found was that they had used a lot of batch was that they had used a lot of batch was that they had used a lot of batch processes. So you know batch processes processes. So you know batch processes processes. So you know batch processes when you kind of wait to do a bunch of when you kind of wait to do a bunch of when you kind of wait to do a bunch of stuff at once like laundry like you stuff at once like laundry like you stuff at once like laundry like you don't just run one sock in the washer.

don't just run one sock in the washer. don't just run one sock in the washer. you wait till you have a proper pile and you wait till you have a proper pile and you wait till you have a proper pile and then you throw it all in. then you throw it all in. then you throw it all in. >> And and the idea here is it's more >> And and the idea here is it's more >> And and the idea here is it's more efficient. And so they were thinking, efficient. And so they were thinking, efficient. And so they were thinking, okay, we'll wait till we have a proper okay, we'll wait till we have a proper okay, we'll wait till we have a proper pile of packages and then we'll scan pile of packages and then we'll scan pile of packages and then we'll scan them into inventory, right? Beep beep them into inventory, right? Beep beep them into inventory, right? Beep beep beep beep beep. That's faster, right? beep beep beep. That's faster, right? beep beep beep. That's faster, right? And then, you know, maybe you wait till And then, you know, maybe you wait till And then, you know, maybe you wait till you have a good pile before you sticker you have a good pile before you sticker you have a good pile before you sticker them with their destination. And so them with their destination. And so them with their destination. And so there were all these kind of choke there were all these kind of choke there were all these kind of choke points. And Paul Suit said, let's change points. And Paul Suit said, let's change points. And Paul Suit said, let's change our mindset. Like there's no natural our mindset. Like there's no natural our mindset. Like there's no natural reason that any of these packages should reason that any of these packages should reason that any of these packages should have to wait. Like let's imagine that have to wait. Like let's imagine that have to wait. Like let's imagine that this whole thing just flows like a this whole thing just flows like a this whole thing just flows like a river, river, river, >> one package at a time down the river. >> one package at a time down the river. >> one package at a time down the river. And anything that kind of blocks the And anything that kind of blocks the And anything that kind of blocks the river, anything that that adds friction, river, anything that that adds friction, river, anything that that adds friction, like we're going to take it out. like we're going to take it out. like we're going to take it out. >> And so that becomes kind of their new >> And so that becomes kind of their new >> And so that becomes kind of their new mental mindset for this is just changing mental mindset for this is just changing mental mindset for this is just changing the whole line so the packages can can the whole line so the packages can can the whole line so the packages can can flow unencumbered. flow unencumbered. flow unencumbered. Within six weeks, he's cut the delays in Within six weeks, he's cut the delays in Within six weeks, he's cut the delays in half. within another 6 weeks, 90% of the half. within another 6 weeks, 90% of the half. within another 6 weeks, 90% of the packages are arriving within 24 hours of packages are arriving within 24 hours of packages are arriving within 24 hours of their delivery. Now, this I mean this their delivery. Now, this I mean this their delivery. Now, this I mean this story blows my mind because they had a story blows my mind because they had a story blows my mind because they had a they had acclimated to a world where they had acclimated to a world where they had acclimated to a world where packages took 3 days to be delivered, packages took 3 days to be delivered, packages took 3 days to be delivered, right? That was just that was what they right? That was just that was what they right? That was just that was what they thought was the reality in in 12 weeks thought was the reality in in 12 weeks thought was the reality in in 12 weeks radical improvement. And and so that radical improvement. And and so that radical improvement. And and so that becomes kind of in in in a way like the becomes kind of in in in a way like the becomes kind of in in in a way like the um the symbol of what it means to reset um the symbol of what it means to reset um the symbol of what it means to reset which is the topic of the book. Like how which is the topic of the book. Like how which is the topic of the book. Like how do you go from a world where you have

do you go from a world where you have do you go from a world where you have acclimated to the wrong kind of acclimated to the wrong kind of acclimated to the wrong kind of performance and how do you reset your performance and how do you reset your performance and how do you reset your work? work? work? >> You also study Chick-fil-A and use them >> You also study Chick-fil-A and use them >> You also study Chick-fil-A and use them as a case study. got a lot of as a case study. got a lot of as a case study. got a lot of Chick-fil-A fans listening to this Chick-fil-A fans listening to this Chick-fil-A fans listening to this podcast and uh we kind of, you know, podcast and uh we kind of, you know, podcast and uh we kind of, you know, I've had some Chick-fil-A execs on and I've had some Chick-fil-A execs on and I've had some Chick-fil-A execs on and one of the things that amazes me is how one of the things that amazes me is how one of the things that amazes me is how they're always changing. It's always they're always changing. It's always they're always changing. It's always that nice chicken sandwich, but or the that nice chicken sandwich, but or the that nice chicken sandwich, but or the spicy chicken if you're me, my favorite. spicy chicken if you're me, my favorite. spicy chicken if you're me, my favorite. >> Right there. >> Right there. >> Right there. >> Waffle fries, the whole deal. They're >> Waffle fries, the whole deal. They're >> Waffle fries, the whole deal. They're not doing what a lot of other not doing what a lot of other not doing what a lot of other restaurants do, changing up their menu. restaurants do, changing up their menu. restaurants do, changing up their menu. It takes a lot It takes a lot It takes a lot >> to change their menu, >> to change their menu, >> to change their menu, >> but they're always innovating. What are >> but they're always innovating. What are >> but they're always innovating. What are you learning about change from you learning about change from you learning about change from Chick-fil-A? Chick-fil-A? Chick-fil-A? What dazzled me and and in in some ways What dazzled me and and in in some ways What dazzled me and and in in some ways was kind of the original seed for this was kind of the original seed for this was kind of the original seed for this whole book was was an experience I had whole book was was an experience I had whole book was was an experience I had with my Chick-fil-A drive-thru in with my Chick-fil-A drive-thru in with my Chick-fil-A drive-thru in Durham, North Carolina. I went there one Durham, North Carolina. I went there one Durham, North Carolina. I went there one night in the pandemic. Longest line I've night in the pandemic. Longest line I've night in the pandemic. Longest line I've ever seen at a drive-thru. Just soulc ever seen at a drive-thru. Just soulc ever seen at a drive-thru. Just soulc crushingly long. And uh I was trying crushingly long. And uh I was trying crushingly long. And uh I was trying >> hanging out onto the block kind of. >> hanging out onto the block kind of. >> hanging out onto the block kind of. >> I mean, it was just insane. And I was >> I mean, it was just insane. And I was >> I mean, it was just insane. And I was trying desperately to come up with some trying desperately to come up with some trying desperately to come up with some way to kind of weasel out of my fatherly way to kind of weasel out of my fatherly way to kind of weasel out of my fatherly duties to bring home dinner. and and I duties to bring home dinner. and and I duties to bring home dinner. and and I just ultimately grudgingly got in the just ultimately grudgingly got in the just ultimately grudgingly got in the line and then w was blown away by how line and then w was blown away by how line and then w was blown away by how quickly this thing moved. I mean, there quickly this thing moved. I mean, there quickly this thing moved. I mean, there there were at least 50 cars in this line there were at least 50 cars in this line there were at least 50 cars in this line and I was out with nuggets in hand in and I was out with nuggets in hand in and I was out with nuggets in hand in about 10 minutes. And so I just I had to about 10 minutes. And so I just I had to about 10 minutes. And so I just I had to figure out what was going on. So I I figure out what was going on. So I I figure out what was going on. So I I reached out to the owner operator, guy reached out to the owner operator, guy reached out to the owner operator, guy named Tony Fernandez, and he coached me named Tony Fernandez, and he coached me named Tony Fernandez, and he coached me through it and he said, "Look, it's not through it and he said, "Look, it's not through it and he said, "Look, it's not a mystery. What we do is we pay a mystery. What we do is we pay a mystery. What we do is we pay diligent, patient attention to our

diligent, patient attention to our diligent, patient attention to our bottlenecks. bottlenecks. bottlenecks. So, you know, bottlenecks, operational So, you know, bottlenecks, operational So, you know, bottlenecks, operational term, what is it that's holding you term, what is it that's holding you term, what is it that's holding you back? And and in a in a normal back? And and in a in a normal back? And and in a in a normal drive-thru, like if you picture Burger drive-thru, like if you picture Burger drive-thru, like if you picture Burger King or Taco Bell or Arby's or King or Taco Bell or Arby's or King or Taco Bell or Arby's or something, the bottleneck might be the something, the bottleneck might be the something, the bottleneck might be the menu board, you know, where the thing menu board, you know, where the thing menu board, you know, where the thing where you pull up and inevitably you're where you pull up and inevitably you're where you pull up and inevitably you're behind that person who gets there and behind that person who gets there and behind that person who gets there and it's like it hasn't occurred to them it's like it hasn't occurred to them it's like it hasn't occurred to them until that moment that they're going to until that moment that they're going to until that moment that they're going to be called on to make a decision, right? be called on to make a decision, right? be called on to make a decision, right? Okay. So, they're kind of gawking around Okay. So, they're kind of gawking around Okay. So, they're kind of gawking around just amazed by all the options available just amazed by all the options available just amazed by all the options available to them to them to them >> and and so if it takes them 3 minutes to >> and and so if it takes them 3 minutes to >> and and so if it takes them 3 minutes to make a decision, well, that 3 minutes make a decision, well, that 3 minutes make a decision, well, that 3 minutes then gets added to your wait time and then gets added to your wait time and then gets added to your wait time and the person behind you and the person the person behind you and the person the person behind you and the person behind them. And so Chick-fil-A, to behind them. And so Chick-fil-A, to behind them. And so Chick-fil-A, to their credit, just said, "Well, we don't their credit, just said, "Well, we don't their credit, just said, "Well, we don't need a menu board. Forget about that." need a menu board. Forget about that." need a menu board. Forget about that." They they literally took it out. They They they literally took it out. They They they literally took it out. They now have human beings that go out to the now have human beings that go out to the now have human beings that go out to the parking lot. You guys have probably seen parking lot. You guys have probably seen parking lot. You guys have probably seen this. and and they'll just take your this. and and they'll just take your this. and and they'll just take your order right there at your window on an order right there at your window on an order right there at your window on an iPad. And the beauty of this is I've iPad. And the beauty of this is I've iPad. And the beauty of this is I've seen six people in the parking lot seen six people in the parking lot seen six people in the parking lot taking orders simultaneously at this taking orders simultaneously at this taking orders simultaneously at this Chick-fil-A. I mean, six. There is not a Chick-fil-A. I mean, six. There is not a Chick-fil-A. I mean, six. There is not a fast food franchise in the world that fast food franchise in the world that fast food franchise in the world that has six menu boards, right? But they can has six menu boards, right? But they can has six menu boards, right? But they can scale up and they can scale down. If scale up and they can scale down. If scale up and they can scale down. If it's slow, they pull back to one person, it's slow, they pull back to one person, it's slow, they pull back to one person, right? So, check. You have you have right? So, check. You have you have right? So, check. You have you have targeted the constraint. Now, what's targeted the constraint. Now, what's targeted the constraint. Now, what's interesting is interesting is interesting is it's not like the constraint is it's not like the constraint is it's not like the constraint is something that goes away like you fix something that goes away like you fix something that goes away like you fix it, check, okay, let's move on to it, check, okay, let's move on to it, check, okay, let's move on to something else. No, the constraint just something else. No, the constraint just something else. No, the constraint just moves. So, if you got six people taking moves. So, if you got six people taking moves. So, if you got six people taking orders, orders are flooding into the

orders, orders are flooding into the orders, orders are flooding into the kitchen and now the kitchen is the kitchen and now the kitchen is the kitchen and now the kitchen is the constraint. So, you got to beef up, constraint. So, you got to beef up, constraint. So, you got to beef up, staff up the kitchen, change the staff up the kitchen, change the staff up the kitchen, change the processes, and and that's that's the way processes, and and that's that's the way processes, and and that's that's the way you improve a system is you work on this you improve a system is you work on this you improve a system is you work on this constraint, constraint moves, then you constraint, constraint moves, then you constraint, constraint moves, then you work there, then you work there. And the work there, then you work there. And the work there, then you work there. And the reason it's worth it, the reason it's reason it's worth it, the reason it's reason it's worth it, the reason it's not pointless, like, oh well, if there's not pointless, like, oh well, if there's not pointless, like, oh well, if there's always a constraint, is there any point always a constraint, is there any point always a constraint, is there any point to it? No, there's a there's a huge to it? No, there's a there's a huge to it? No, there's a there's a huge point because every time you whittle point because every time you whittle point because every time you whittle down one constraint, you've made the down one constraint, you've made the down one constraint, you've made the system better permanently. And then the system better permanently. And then the system better permanently. And then the next time it moves and you work there, next time it moves and you work there, next time it moves and you work there, you've made it better. And yeah, you've made it better. And yeah, you've made it better. And yeah, >> no, keep going. No, I was just going to >> no, keep going. No, I was just going to >> no, keep going. No, I was just going to wrap up and say I I I know very few of wrap up and say I I I know very few of wrap up and say I I I know very few of the people listening are working in a the people listening are working in a the people listening are working in a fast food operations uh situation, but fast food operations uh situation, but fast food operations uh situation, but the notion of constraints is pretty the notion of constraints is pretty the notion of constraints is pretty universal, right? In the context of any universal, right? In the context of any universal, right? In the context of any goal that we have, there's going to be goal that we have, there's going to be goal that we have, there's going to be probably one factor more than any other probably one factor more than any other probably one factor more than any other that is the active limiting factor to that is the active limiting factor to that is the active limiting factor to our progress or to our success. And so our progress or to our success. And so our progress or to our success. And so we can be pretty sure if we focus our we can be pretty sure if we focus our we can be pretty sure if we focus our attention there that we're going to make attention there that we're going to make attention there that we're going to make faster progress than than other uh faster progress than than other uh faster progress than than other uh possibilities.

possibilities. possibilities. >> Well, you know, Chick-fil-A, I think in >> Well, you know, Chick-fil-A, I think in >> Well, you know, Chick-fil-A, I think in the last 5 years in particular, I've the last 5 years in particular, I've the last 5 years in particular, I've seen them make so many changes. They've seen them make so many changes. They've seen them make so many changes. They've gone to quad drive-thrus in places. gone to quad drive-thrus in places. gone to quad drive-thrus in places. They've added extra people, like you They've added extra people, like you They've added extra people, like you say, you know, multiple lines with six say, you know, multiple lines with six say, you know, multiple lines with six people people people >> taking orders. And it's just a real >> taking orders. And it's just a real >> taking orders. And it's just a real study in, you know, the Chick-fil-A, the study in, you know, the Chick-fil-A, the study in, you know, the Chick-fil-A, the sandwich is going to taste the same as sandwich is going to taste the same as sandwich is going to taste the same as when Truit Cathy did it, but the when Truit Cathy did it, but the when Truit Cathy did it, but the delivery has had to explode and expand. delivery has had to explode and expand. delivery has had to explode and expand. And they're redesigning stores And they're redesigning stores And they're redesigning stores physically so that they better suit the physically so that they better suit the physically so that they better suit the era we're in, which is great. Well, we era we're in, which is great. Well, we era we're in, which is great. Well, we got a few minutes that uh I want to got a few minutes that uh I want to got a few minutes that uh I want to spend thinking about the power of spend thinking about the power of spend thinking about the power of moments. moments. moments. >> Um, that was a powerful book as well. >> Um, that was a powerful book as well. >> Um, that was a powerful book as well. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. um would love to know what is sort of um would love to know what is sort of um would love to know what is sort of what makes a moment memorable because if what makes a moment memorable because if what makes a moment memorable because if you think about it, we're crafting you think about it, we're crafting you think about it, we're crafting services every weekend. We want them to services every weekend. We want them to services every weekend. We want them to be memorable. We have music, we have be memorable. We have music, we have be memorable. We have music, we have prayer, we have baptisms, we have prayer, we have baptisms, we have prayer, we have baptisms, we have sermons, we have other creative elements sermons, we have other creative elements sermons, we have other creative elements that we can put in. If you think about, that we can put in. If you think about, that we can put in. If you think about, you know, who gets to craft a a power of you know, who gets to craft a a power of you know, who gets to craft a a power of a moment on the regular, there are few a moment on the regular, there are few a moment on the regular, there are few other candidates. you know, the Super other candidates. you know, the Super other candidates. you know, the Super Bowl halftime show is once a year, you Bowl halftime show is once a year, you Bowl halftime show is once a year, you know, but you have church, which is 52 know, but you have church, which is 52 know, but you have church, which is 52 times a year minimum. So, what what times a year minimum. So, what what times a year minimum. So, what what would you what makes for a a peak would you what makes for a a peak would you what makes for a a peak moment, a great moment?

moment, a great moment? moment, a great moment? >> Well, let's start there because the the >> Well, let's start there because the the >> Well, let's start there because the the thesis of the book and, you know, in a thesis of the book and, you know, in a thesis of the book and, you know, in a paragraph or so is that we live in a paragraph or so is that we live in a paragraph or so is that we live in a world where people care a lot about world where people care a lot about world where people care a lot about experience like you were just outlining. experience like you were just outlining. experience like you were just outlining. You know, we care about the experience You know, we care about the experience You know, we care about the experience of the people who come to our churches. of the people who come to our churches. of the people who come to our churches. We care about the experience of the We care about the experience of the We care about the experience of the patients we treat and the students we patients we treat and the students we patients we treat and the students we teach and and our children that we're teach and and our children that we're teach and and our children that we're raising. And and what the book is saying raising. And and what the book is saying raising. And and what the book is saying is that not all moments are created is that not all moments are created is that not all moments are created equal in an experience. And that in fact equal in an experience. And that in fact equal in an experience. And that in fact great experiences hinge on peak moments. great experiences hinge on peak moments. great experiences hinge on peak moments. So uh if you think about a vacation from So uh if you think about a vacation from So uh if you think about a vacation from 3 or 4 years ago, you know, most of what 3 or 4 years ago, you know, most of what 3 or 4 years ago, you know, most of what you did has dissolved. It's gone. But you did has dissolved. It's gone. But you did has dissolved. It's gone. But but there are flashes, right? There are but there are flashes, right? There are but there are flashes, right? There are scenes. There are particular things that scenes. There are particular things that scenes. There are particular things that you recall, those are the peaks. And and you recall, those are the peaks. And and you recall, those are the peaks. And and our argument in the book is that there our argument in the book is that there our argument in the book is that there is a logic to these peak moments that we is a logic to these peak moments that we is a logic to these peak moments that we can be intentional about them and and can be intentional about them and and can be intentional about them and and create them rather than just kind of let create them rather than just kind of let create them rather than just kind of let them happen. So, so you know, back to them happen. So, so you know, back to them happen. So, so you know, back to the church situation, the church situation, the church situation, this is not my area of expertise, but this is not my area of expertise, but this is not my area of expertise, but just riffing. I I would think basically just riffing. I I would think basically just riffing. I I would think basically anything that sparks an emotion is anything that sparks an emotion is anything that sparks an emotion is something you should cling to and and something you should cling to and and something you should cling to and and incubate and treasure. And anything that incubate and treasure. And anything that incubate and treasure. And anything that does not spark an emotion is something does not spark an emotion is something does not spark an emotion is something that is uh is negotiable or um could be that is uh is negotiable or um could be that is uh is negotiable or um could be could be taken away. um that that would could be taken away. um that that would could be taken away. um that that would be my walking in uh point of view

be my walking in uh point of view be my walking in uh point of view because um what's emotional is because um what's emotional is because um what's emotional is memorable. What what's emotional is is memorable. What what's emotional is is memorable. What what's emotional is is special and something that they can't special and something that they can't special and something that they can't get other places. Things like get other places. Things like get other places. Things like announcements from the bulletin, you announcements from the bulletin, you announcements from the bulletin, you know, not emotion sparking. There are know, not emotion sparking. There are know, not emotion sparking. There are other venues for that. And and that's other venues for that. And and that's other venues for that. And and that's why exactly zero people come to church why exactly zero people come to church why exactly zero people come to church is to hear the latest from the bulletin, is to hear the latest from the bulletin, is to hear the latest from the bulletin, right? Um, so that that's my starting right? Um, so that that's my starting right? Um, so that that's my starting point. Now, you have a hundred times point. Now, you have a hundred times point. Now, you have a hundred times more domain expertise than I do. So, more domain expertise than I do. So, more domain expertise than I do. So, what what's your rift to that riff? what what's your rift to that riff? what what's your rift to that riff? >> I think you're right. You know, when >> I think you're right. You know, when >> I think you're right. You know, when you're crafting a message, uh, it's you're crafting a message, uh, it's you're crafting a message, uh, it's often a few questions. What do I want often a few questions. What do I want often a few questions. What do I want them to know? Why do I want them to know them to know? Why do I want them to know them to know? Why do I want them to know it? What do I want them to do? Why do I, it? What do I want them to do? Why do I, it? What do I want them to do? Why do I, uh, want them to do it? And I think uh, want them to do it? And I think uh, want them to do it? And I think those are great questions. Those are those are great questions. Those are those are great questions. Those are from Andy Stanley, but Craig Relle adds, from Andy Stanley, but Craig Relle adds, from Andy Stanley, but Craig Relle adds, "How do I want them to feel?" Mhm. "How do I want them to feel?" Mhm. "How do I want them to feel?" Mhm. >> And I think there's almost like a mood >> And I think there's almost like a mood >> And I think there's almost like a mood board for everything from a service board for everything from a service board for everything from a service flow. Um, do you know do you know the flow. Um, do you know do you know the flow. Um, do you know do you know the song Hurt by Johnny Cash?

song Hurt by Johnny Cash? song Hurt by Johnny Cash? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Yeah. It was a Trent Resnner 9in nail >> Yeah. It was a Trent Resnner 9in nail >> Yeah. It was a Trent Resnner 9in nail song. song. song. >> I was preaching on broken relationships >> I was preaching on broken relationships >> I was preaching on broken relationships and just came across that song. I'd and just came across that song. I'd and just came across that song. I'd listened to it for years, but then I saw listened to it for years, but then I saw listened to it for years, but then I saw the YouTube video which was really the YouTube video which was really the YouTube video which was really powerful and we decided to play it like powerful and we decided to play it like powerful and we decided to play it like the video, the music video. He recorded the video, the music video. He recorded the video, the music video. He recorded it seven months before he died, before I it seven months before he died, before I it seven months before he died, before I preached. preached. preached. >> So, we ran the bumper, which kind of a >> So, we ran the bumper, which kind of a >> So, we ran the bumper, which kind of a like just a video intro, which kind of like just a video intro, which kind of like just a video intro, which kind of like da it was kind of, you know, a like da it was kind of, you know, a like da it was kind of, you know, a diddy, diddy, diddy, >> which is fine. That was fine for the >> which is fine. That was fine for the >> which is fine. That was fine for the series. But I'm like, okay, that video series. But I'm like, okay, that video series. But I'm like, okay, that video with Johnny Cash can't go before with Johnny Cash can't go before with Johnny Cash can't go before >> the the trailer for the the series >> the the trailer for the the series >> the the trailer for the the series because it's too much of an emotional because it's too much of an emotional because it's too much of an emotional shift. So, play the trailer and then shift. So, play the trailer and then shift. So, play the trailer and then surprise them surprise them surprise them >> with that. And I had all of the people >> with that. And I had all of the people >> with that. And I had all of the people on stage that day watch the video. on stage that day watch the video. on stage that day watch the video. before like in rehearsal at 7:30 in the before like in rehearsal at 7:30 in the before like in rehearsal at 7:30 in the morning before the services morning before the services morning before the services >> and then I came on stage and the lights >> and then I came on stage and the lights >> and then I came on stage and the lights went up right after Johnny Cash is went up right after Johnny Cash is went up right after Johnny Cash is talking about his empire of dirt and talking about his empire of dirt and talking about his empire of dirt and had to open on a lower note like you had to open on a lower note like you had to open on a lower note like you can't go hey how's everyone doing what's can't go hey how's everyone doing what's can't go hey how's everyone doing what's up up up >> yeah what's up man what you up to see >> yeah what's up man what you up to see >> yeah what's up man what you up to see the game last night the game last night the game last night >> it was it was that emotional arc and the >> it was it was that emotional arc and the >> it was it was that emotional arc and the more I preach the more I think about more I preach the more I think about more I preach the more I think about >> the emotional arc that then, you know, >> the emotional arc that then, you know, >> the emotional arc that then, you know, I'll brief the worship leaders like I'll brief the worship leaders like I'll brief the worship leaders like coming off of the the sermon.

coming off of the the sermon. coming off of the the sermon. >> I don't want to be tonedeaf. I I I want >> I don't want to be tonedeaf. I I I want >> I don't want to be tonedeaf. I I I want you to lead in a way that's helpful. So, you to lead in a way that's helpful. So, you to lead in a way that's helpful. So, I think about that like is that the kind I think about that like is that the kind I think about that like is that the kind of thing you're talking about in of thing you're talking about in of thing you're talking about in crafting a moment? And the number of crafting a moment? And the number of crafting a moment? And the number of people who came up and told me about people who came up and told me about people who came up and told me about that video. I was at a coffee popup shop that video. I was at a coffee popup shop that video. I was at a coffee popup shop a week later and this guy walks up and a week later and this guy walks up and a week later and this guy walks up and he goes, "I can't stop thinking about he goes, "I can't stop thinking about he goes, "I can't stop thinking about and watching that video." and watching that video." and watching that video." >> They connected. Yeah. Mhm. >> They connected. Yeah. Mhm. >> They connected. Yeah. Mhm. >> And and that's exactly what I mean by >> And and that's exactly what I mean by >> And and that's exactly what I mean by consciously crafting a moment. I have a consciously crafting a moment. I have a consciously crafting a moment. I have a podcast where I talk to people from podcast where I talk to people from podcast where I talk to people from different professions and and one thing different professions and and one thing different professions and and one thing that comes to mind is I talk to a summer that comes to mind is I talk to a summer that comes to mind is I talk to a summer camp director and this is this is all he camp director and this is this is all he camp director and this is this is all he thinks about, right, is how do you thinks about, right, is how do you thinks about, right, is how do you create moments that that will be create moments that that will be create moments that that will be treasured by the kids who spend a couple treasured by the kids who spend a couple treasured by the kids who spend a couple of weeks of their summer with them. And of weeks of their summer with them. And of weeks of their summer with them. And he said they have this really powerful he said they have this really powerful he said they have this really powerful kind of final campfire. This is the kind of final campfire. This is the kind of final campfire. This is the night before their parents come to pick night before their parents come to pick night before their parents come to pick them up. them up. them up. And the campers all that it's night And the campers all that it's night And the campers all that it's night time, they circle around the campfire time, they circle around the campfire time, they circle around the campfire and they they tell stories about what and they they tell stories about what and they they tell stories about what they've seen and they're kind of razing they've seen and they're kind of razing they've seen and they're kind of razing each other, but they're also telling each other, but they're also telling each other, but they're also telling telling story. They're they're bragging telling story. They're they're bragging telling story. They're they're bragging on each other and they're saying, you on each other and they're saying, you on each other and they're saying, you know, I met someone here who who I think know, I met someone here who who I think know, I met someone here who who I think is going to be my best friend for life is going to be my best friend for life is going to be my best friend for life and and his name is Michael and Michael, and and his name is Michael and Michael, and and his name is Michael and Michael, I just want you to know I I I've you I just want you to know I I I've you I just want you to know I I I've you know, been so happy to spend this time.

know, been so happy to spend this time. know, been so happy to spend this time. you know, those kinds of reflections. you know, those kinds of reflections. you know, those kinds of reflections. And then they'll sing songs together. And then they'll sing songs together. And then they'll sing songs together. And he said, "By the end of it, like And he said, "By the end of it, like And he said, "By the end of it, like everyone is crying." everyone is crying." everyone is crying." And and I said, "Well, do you do you cry And and I said, "Well, do you do you cry And and I said, "Well, do you do you cry after all these years?" And he said, after all these years?" And he said, after all these years?" And he said, "No, no, I don't cry because that that "No, no, I don't cry because that that "No, no, I don't cry because that that means it's working and I'm happy because means it's working and I'm happy because means it's working and I'm happy because it means they felt something like this it means they felt something like this it means they felt something like this this was something that was precious this was something that was precious this was something that was precious enough that they're sad it's coming to enough that they're sad it's coming to enough that they're sad it's coming to an end." And I just thought that was an end." And I just thought that was an end." And I just thought that was such a beautiful thing, right? To that's such a beautiful thing, right? To that's such a beautiful thing, right? To that's not something that just kind of bubbled not something that just kind of bubbled not something that just kind of bubbled out accidentally. That's something that out accidentally. That's something that out accidentally. That's something that was created with intention and it has was created with intention and it has was created with intention and it has huge meaning for the people that were huge meaning for the people that were huge meaning for the people that were part of it and it comes to be a peak part of it and it comes to be a peak part of it and it comes to be a peak moment for this experience. moment for this experience. moment for this experience. >> Well, Dan, I can tell we're going to >> Well, Dan, I can tell we're going to >> Well, Dan, I can tell we're going to need to do this again at some point in need to do this again at some point in need to do this again at some point in the future. I feel like I've barely the future. I feel like I've barely the future. I feel like I've barely scratched the surface, but this has been scratched the surface, but this has been scratched the surface, but this has been really, really rich, super helpful, and really, really rich, super helpful, and really, really rich, super helpful, and a lot of fun. So, the new book, the a lot of fun. So, the new book, the a lot of fun. So, the new book, the latest one is called Reset: How to latest one is called Reset: How to latest one is called Reset: How to Change What's Not Working. We'll link to Change What's Not Working. We'll link to Change What's Not Working. We'll link to uh the other books we've referenced uh uh the other books we've referenced uh uh the other books we've referenced uh in the show notes as well, but you got a in the show notes as well, but you got a in the show notes as well, but you got a new podcast, right? You're a million new podcast, right? You're a million new podcast, right? You're a million downloads in. Congratulations, dude.

downloads in. Congratulations, dude. downloads in. Congratulations, dude. >> We I mean, we are youngsters in the >> We I mean, we are youngsters in the >> We I mean, we are youngsters in the podcast world. I mean, we we only have podcast world. I mean, we we only have podcast world. I mean, we we only have 650 episodes to go to catch up with you. 650 episodes to go to catch up with you. 650 episodes to go to catch up with you. So, uh the podcast is it's called What So, uh the podcast is it's called What So, uh the podcast is it's called What It's Like to Be. And in every episode, I It's Like to Be. And in every episode, I It's Like to Be. And in every episode, I talk to someone from a different talk to someone from a different talk to someone from a different profession. So, a cattle rancher, a profession. So, a cattle rancher, a profession. So, a cattle rancher, a homicide detective, homicide detective, homicide detective, uh, a hospice nurse, a secret service uh, a hospice nurse, a secret service uh, a hospice nurse, a secret service agent, and I just pepper them with a agent, and I just pepper them with a agent, and I just pepper them with a hundred nosy questions about what is it hundred nosy questions about what is it hundred nosy questions about what is it like to do what you do and what are the like to do what you do and what are the like to do what you do and what are the highs and what are the lows, and we're highs and what are the lows, and we're highs and what are the lows, and we're trying to get a feel for what is it like trying to get a feel for what is it like trying to get a feel for what is it like to walk in the shoes of these people. to walk in the shoes of these people. to walk in the shoes of these people. And it has been an absolute treat. I And it has been an absolute treat. I And it has been an absolute treat. I mean, it I think it may be more fun for mean, it I think it may be more fun for mean, it I think it may be more fun for me than than the books are. It's just me than than the books are. It's just me than than the books are. It's just been a blast. been a blast. been a blast. >> Well, you got a new subscriber in me and >> Well, you got a new subscriber in me and >> Well, you got a new subscriber in me and you do an episode on London Cabbies, you do an episode on London Cabbies, you do an episode on London Cabbies, which I think we weren't chatting about which I think we weren't chatting about which I think we weren't chatting about on the pod, but ahead of time. So, on the pod, but ahead of time. So, on the pod, but ahead of time. So, >> yeah, we did some backstage chatting >> yeah, we did some backstage chatting >> yeah, we did some backstage chatting about that about that about that >> with the knowledge. The knowledge that's >> with the knowledge. The knowledge that's >> with the knowledge. The knowledge that's coming up in a book I'm working on right coming up in a book I'm working on right coming up in a book I'm working on right now and some other stuff I'm working on. now and some other stuff I'm working on. now and some other stuff I'm working on. But, man, Dan, can't thank you enough, But, man, Dan, can't thank you enough, But, man, Dan, can't thank you enough, man. Um, really appreciate it. And, uh, man. Um, really appreciate it. And, uh, man. Um, really appreciate it. And, uh, thank you so much for helping us out.

thank you so much for helping us out. thank you so much for helping us out. >> This has been amazing. And thanks so >> This has been amazing. And thanks so >> This has been amazing. And thanks so much, Carrie.