Secrets to a Happy Marriage Revealed with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons

What do you fight about? What do you fight about? Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Interesting. Well, how I load the Interesting. Well, how I load the Interesting. Well, how I load the dishwasher, right? I mean, I can't put dishwasher, right? I mean, I can't put dishwasher, right? I mean, I can't put enough things in that dishwasher. enough things in that dishwasher. enough things in that dishwasher. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we have got Gabe and Podcast. Hey, today we have got Gabe and Podcast. Hey, today we have got Gabe and Rebecca Lyons. You ever fought in your Rebecca Lyons. You ever fought in your Rebecca Lyons. You ever fought in your relationship? You ever fight in your relationship? You ever fight in your relationship? You ever fight in your marriage? Come on, everybody has. What marriage? Come on, everybody has. What marriage? Come on, everybody has. What happens when couples fight about happens when couples fight about happens when couples fight about everything? Gabe and Rebecca Lyons open everything? Gabe and Rebecca Lyons open everything? Gabe and Rebecca Lyons open up about marriage, sex, and they have up about marriage, sex, and they have up about marriage, sex, and they have honest advice for two career couples. honest advice for two career couples. honest advice for two career couples. Hey, today here's what we're doing. Five Hey, today here's what we're doing. Five Hey, today here's what we're doing. Five lucky winners are going to get a copy of lucky winners are going to get a copy of lucky winners are going to get a copy of Gabe and Rebecca's new book, The Fight Gabe and Rebecca's new book, The Fight Gabe and Rebecca's new book, The Fight for Us. To enter, just leave a comment for Us. To enter, just leave a comment for Us. To enter, just leave a comment saying, "I love my marriage." Winners saying, "I love my marriage." Winners saying, "I love my marriage." Winners are going to be announced on YouTube. are going to be announced on YouTube. are going to be announced on YouTube. So, right now in the comments, drop down So, right now in the comments, drop down So, right now in the comments, drop down I love my marriage. You'll be entered to I love my marriage. You'll be entered to I love my marriage. You'll be entered to win. And of course, like, subscribe, win. And of course, like, subscribe, win. And of course, like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the leave a comment to join the leave a comment to join the conversation. And now, a word from conversation. And now, a word from conversation. And now, a word from today's partners, then we'll dive right today's partners, then we'll dive right today's partners, then we'll dive right into my interview with Gabe and Rebecca into my interview with Gabe and Rebecca into my interview with Gabe and Rebecca Lyons, recorded in Nashville. This Lyons, recorded in Nashville. This Lyons, recorded in Nashville. This episode is brought to you by The Art of episode is brought to you by The Art of episode is brought to you by The Art of Preaching. Hey, preachers, listen up. If Preaching. Hey, preachers, listen up. If Preaching. Hey, preachers, listen up. If you want to take a big step forward in you want to take a big step forward in you want to take a big step forward in your preaching this summer, I'm offering your preaching this summer, I'm offering your preaching this summer, I'm offering something for the very first time to something for the very first time to something for the very first time to make sure that happens. So, until April make sure that happens. So, until April make sure that happens. So, until April 11th, I'm offering a preaching 11th, I'm offering a preaching 11th, I'm offering a preaching breakthrough guarantee with my course, breakthrough guarantee with my course, breakthrough guarantee with my course, The Art of Preaching. In the course, The Art of Preaching. In the course, The Art of Preaching. In the course, you're going to get equipped to deliver you're going to get equipped to deliver you're going to get equipped to deliver more engaging, memorable, and impactful more engaging, memorable, and impactful more engaging, memorable, and impactful messages every single time you preach.

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podcast. It's good to have you guys. podcast. It's good to have you guys. Nice to be here in person in Nashville. Nice to be here in person in Nashville. Nice to be here in person in Nashville. I love it. Franklin. I know, Franklin. I love it. Franklin. I know, Franklin. I love it. Franklin. I know, Franklin. Thanks for hosting us. To be very Thanks for hosting us. To be very Thanks for hosting us. To be very specific, 4th Street in Franklin. specific, 4th Street in Franklin. specific, 4th Street in Franklin. But anyway, it's good to be with you. But anyway, it's good to be with you. But anyway, it's good to be with you. So, I've been excited to have this So, I've been excited to have this So, I've been excited to have this conversation for a number of different conversation for a number of different conversation for a number of different reasons, but one of which is is this reasons, but one of which is is this reasons, but one of which is is this dynamic which seems to be growing in dynamic which seems to be growing in dynamic which seems to be growing in ministry couples. You not only love each ministry couples. You not only love each ministry couples. You not only love each other, you work together. And you've other, you work together. And you've other, you work together. And you've worked together for a long time. worked together for a long time. worked together for a long time. Can you talk about that dynamic in Can you talk about that dynamic in Can you talk about that dynamic in marriage as a two of you work work marriage as a two of you work work marriage as a two of you work work together on Think? And other projects? together on Think? And other projects? together on Think? And other projects? Well, it's it's lots of highs and lows. Well, it's it's lots of highs and lows. Well, it's it's lots of highs and lows. The highs are you get to spend more time The highs are you get to spend more time The highs are you get to spend more time together maybe if they if we were in together maybe if they if we were in together maybe if they if we were in different careers. Um, we've kind of our different careers. Um, we've kind of our different careers. Um, we've kind of our life has mapped out in a way that we life has mapped out in a way that we life has mapped out in a way that we overlap so much in the two different overlap so much in the two different overlap so much in the two different ways that we do ministry. So, you enjoy ways that we do ministry. So, you enjoy ways that we do ministry. So, you enjoy those things. You get to travel together those things. You get to travel together those things. You get to travel together sometimes, all of that. But the sometimes, all of that. But the sometimes, all of that. But the downsides are it's really hard to shut downsides are it's really hard to shut downsides are it's really hard to shut off the conversations that are off the conversations that are off the conversations that are work-related. work-related. work-related. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. find yourself at dinner or a date night, find yourself at dinner or a date night, find yourself at dinner or a date night, and Or going to bed and Gabe is like, and Or going to bed and Gabe is like, and Or going to bed and Gabe is like, "No more talk about budget or money or" "No more talk about budget or money or" "No more talk about budget or money or" Yeah, I've got other things on my mind Yeah, I've got other things on my mind Yeah, I've got other things on my mind when we're going to bed. Jacks is one of when we're going to bed. Jacks is one of when we're going to bed. Jacks is one of them. Clea one of them. And you know, them. Clea one of them. And you know, them. Clea one of them. And you know, some topic comes up about the podcast some topic comes up about the podcast some topic comes up about the podcast schedule and when are we doing that one, schedule and when are we doing that one, schedule and when are we doing that one, you know? And so, those kind of you know? And so, those kind of you know? And so, those kind of dynamics, I think become the risk. Is if dynamics, I think become the risk. Is if dynamics, I think become the risk. Is if you don't put good boundaries in place you don't put good boundaries in place you don't put good boundaries in place and start to set up some rules for how and start to set up some rules for how and start to set up some rules for how are we going to do this?

are we going to do this? are we going to do this? Mhm. To give enough space for the work, Mhm. To give enough space for the work, Mhm. To give enough space for the work, but also give enough space for just us. but also give enough space for just us. but also give enough space for just us. Well, and we didn't start strong working Well, and we didn't start strong working Well, and we didn't start strong working together. Let's be honest. Like, we both together. Let's be honest. Like, we both together. Let's be honest. Like, we both had separate jobs, separate careers. We had separate jobs, separate careers. We had separate jobs, separate careers. We had babies. And then I slowly entered had babies. And then I slowly entered had babies. And then I slowly entered back in, and we launched what we do now, back in, and we launched what we do now, back in, and we launched what we do now, and I quit every other night cuz I was and I quit every other night cuz I was and I quit every other night cuz I was free help, you know, in the launch of free help, you know, in the launch of free help, you know, in the launch of our nonprofit. our nonprofit. our nonprofit. Undervalued, undervalued free help. Undervalued, undervalued free help. Undervalued, undervalued free help. all the jobs nobody wanted, and one of all the jobs nobody wanted, and one of all the jobs nobody wanted, and one of them was accounting, both of which I got them was accounting, both of which I got them was accounting, both of which I got C's. And so, I that was not my strength, C's. And so, I that was not my strength, C's. And so, I that was not my strength, and we would we had a lot of tension, and we would we had a lot of tension, and we would we had a lot of tension, and we'll get into this more, but I it and we'll get into this more, but I it and we'll get into this more, but I it just felt like I can't do any of this just felt like I can't do any of this just felt like I can't do any of this right, and then we both felt stressed right, and then we both felt stressed right, and then we both felt stressed cuz it was new and fledgling, and like, cuz it was new and fledgling, and like, cuz it was new and fledgling, and like, are we even going to live in a van down are we even going to live in a van down are we even going to live in a van down by the river in 6 months? And so, there by the river in 6 months? And so, there by the river in 6 months? And so, there was a lot of tension and stress early on was a lot of tension and stress early on was a lot of tension and stress early on where I was like, I don't think how do where I was like, I don't think how do where I was like, I don't think how do people do this? How do people love each people do this? How do people love each people do this? How do people love each other and still work together? So, we other and still work together? So, we other and still work together? So, we tripped along the way, and we finally tripped along the way, and we finally tripped along the way, and we finally learned to celebrate each other's learned to celebrate each other's learned to celebrate each other's strengths and not try to like prove or strengths and not try to like prove or strengths and not try to like prove or impress or outdo one another. And that impress or outdo one another. And that impress or outdo one another. And that helped shift how we saw it working helped shift how we saw it working helped shift how we saw it working together, I think. Is there one of you together, I think. Is there one of you together, I think. Is there one of you who really wants to turn off the work who really wants to turn off the work who really wants to turn off the work conversation independent of bedtime?

conversation independent of bedtime? conversation independent of bedtime? Like, and another one who's like, "No, Like, and another one who's like, "No, Like, and another one who's like, "No, no, no, we really need to discuss this" no, no, we really need to discuss this" no, no, we really need to discuss this" cuz I work with my wife and my youngest cuz I work with my wife and my youngest cuz I work with my wife and my youngest son now. Yeah. And when my youngest son now. Yeah. And when my youngest son now. Yeah. And when my youngest son's around and he's at our house or son's around and he's at our house or son's around and he's at our house or we're at his house, we do not talk about we're at his house, we do not talk about we're at his house, we do not talk about work at all. It's like preserved. But work at all. It's like preserved. But work at all. It's like preserved. But Tony and I, we're kind of like we we're Tony and I, we're kind of like we we're Tony and I, we're kind of like we we're like you guys as as a married couple, like you guys as as a married couple, like you guys as as a married couple, we're just kind of in the ebb and flow, we're just kind of in the ebb and flow, we're just kind of in the ebb and flow, and it'll pop up at the weirdest times. and it'll pop up at the weirdest times. and it'll pop up at the weirdest times. Yeah. It's pretty fluid for us, too. I Yeah. It's pretty fluid for us, too. I Yeah. It's pretty fluid for us, too. I mean, we it's not like we say, "Hey, at mean, we it's not like we say, "Hey, at mean, we it's not like we say, "Hey, at 5:00, no more conversation." But we've 5:00, no more conversation." But we've 5:00, no more conversation." But we've also created really good rhythms in our also created really good rhythms in our also created really good rhythms in our life that allow the space for those life that allow the space for those life that allow the space for those conversations to happen. And and most of conversations to happen. And and most of conversations to happen. And and most of them are during a work day. They're not them are during a work day. They're not them are during a work day. They're not usually on the weekends. And because usually on the weekends. And because usually on the weekends. And because we've got some structure for that, as we've got some structure for that, as we've got some structure for that, as well as structure for her and I to have well as structure for her and I to have well as structure for her and I to have just play time together, like just play time together, like just play time together, like recreation, or we go out and hike, and recreation, or we go out and hike, and recreation, or we go out and hike, and we play pickleball, or do it do a number we play pickleball, or do it do a number we play pickleball, or do it do a number of things, play golf. So, we have a lot of things, play golf. So, we have a lot of things, play golf. So, we have a lot of that built in, and we're not talking of that built in, and we're not talking of that built in, and we're not talking about work when we're doing those about work when we're doing those about work when we're doing those things. So, I think that's been part of things. So, I think that's been part of things. So, I think that's been part of Yeah, it's found its way. It definitely, Yeah, it's found its way. It definitely, Yeah, it's found its way. It definitely, I do think early on we we would not know I do think early on we we would not know I do think early on we we would not know when the best way to do it. And now that when the best way to do it. And now that when the best way to do it. And now that even sleep, the older you get, sleep even sleep, the older you get, sleep even sleep, the older you get, sleep matters so much. I mean, it matters to matters so much. I mean, it matters to matters so much. I mean, it matters to everybody.

everybody. everybody. But when you're young, you kind of think But when you're young, you kind of think But when you're young, you kind of think I'll sleep later in life. But for us I'll sleep later in life. But for us I'll sleep later in life. But for us now, starting our 50s, we are like sleep now, starting our 50s, we are like sleep now, starting our 50s, we are like sleep is so imperative that we hush the house is so imperative that we hush the house is so imperative that we hush the house about an hour to prior, which means like about an hour to prior, which means like about an hour to prior, which means like no devices in our room, no like screens, no devices in our room, no like screens, no devices in our room, no like screens, like and we are for sure not talking like and we are for sure not talking like and we are for sure not talking about a decision we have to make about about a decision we have to make about about a decision we have to make about work. So, that has slowly entered our work. So, that has slowly entered our work. So, that has slowly entered our our normal rhythm our normal rhythm our normal rhythm always like that. I mean, to her point. always like that. I mean, to her point. always like that. I mean, to her point. It was not like that for years. So, I I It was not like that for years. So, I I It was not like that for years. So, I I the couples that are walking through the couples that are walking through the couples that are walking through this dynamic, I think you learn the hard this dynamic, I think you learn the hard this dynamic, I think you learn the hard way. We've learned the hard way that way. We've learned the hard way that way. We've learned the hard way that when you bring up these work things, I when you bring up these work things, I when you bring up these work things, I mean, literally in your body, cortisol mean, literally in your body, cortisol mean, literally in your body, cortisol starts to surge. So, if it's night time, starts to surge. So, if it's night time, starts to surge. So, if it's night time, you're trying to go to bed, and now you're trying to go to bed, and now you're trying to go to bed, and now you're laying in bed talking about some you're laying in bed talking about some you're laying in bed talking about some decision that might have a little stress decision that might have a little stress decision that might have a little stress connected to it. connected to it. connected to it. this person? Yeah, this person? Yeah, this person? Yeah, you're like, "We should sleep on this." you're like, "We should sleep on this." you're like, "We should sleep on this." You're not going to sleep well. You You're not going to sleep well. You You're not going to sleep well. You know, so there's some real health things know, so there's some real health things know, so there's some real health things that I think we've learned that like, that I think we've learned that like, that I think we've learned that like, there's good reason not to do this. It's there's good reason not to do this. It's there's good reason not to do this. It's not just for our relationship, but it's not just for our relationship, but it's not just for our relationship, but it's just not physically the right moments to just not physically the right moments to just not physically the right moments to be having these kinds of conversations. be having these kinds of conversations. be having these kinds of conversations. Yeah. I mean, okay, you said something Yeah. I mean, okay, you said something Yeah. I mean, okay, you said something and my wife, Tony, would totally and my wife, Tony, would totally and my wife, Tony, would totally resonate with you. I kind of wish she resonate with you. I kind of wish she resonate with you. I kind of wish she was here cuz he's like, "Oh, you got the was here cuz he's like, "Oh, you got the was here cuz he's like, "Oh, you got the jobs nobody else wants, and you have to jobs nobody else wants, and you have to jobs nobody else wants, and you have to do accounting." So, you know, Tony is do accounting." So, you know, Tony is do accounting." So, you know, Tony is responsible for receipts. So, when I get responsible for receipts. So, when I get responsible for receipts. So, when I get back from a job, she'll take my back from a job, she'll take my back from a job, she'll take my receipts. Now, she's a lawyer and a receipts. Now, she's a lawyer and a receipts. Now, she's a lawyer and a pharmacist, a little overqualified for pharmacist, a little overqualified for pharmacist, a little overqualified for that job. That can often happen in a that job. That can often happen in a that job. That can often happen in a marriage where um you know, one person marriage where um you know, one person marriage where um you know, one person sort of gets the leftovers, and the sort of gets the leftovers, and the sort of gets the leftovers, and the other person is the CEO or the leader or other person is the CEO or the leader or other person is the CEO or the leader or the founder or whatever.

the founder or whatever. the founder or whatever. How has that dynamic played out in your How has that dynamic played out in your How has that dynamic played out in your marriage? Cuz we're we're navigating marriage? Cuz we're we're navigating marriage? Cuz we're we're navigating that on a regular basis. She's happy to that on a regular basis. She's happy to that on a regular basis. She's happy to do it right now, most days. I don't want do it right now, most days. I don't want do it right now, most days. I don't want to speak for her when she's not in the to speak for her when she's not in the to speak for her when she's not in the room, and she'll be listening to this. room, and she'll be listening to this. room, and she'll be listening to this. Hi, hon. I love you. Um, Hi, hon. I love you. Um, Hi, hon. I love you. Um, you know, and we're really grateful, but you know, and we're really grateful, but you know, and we're really grateful, but that's stuff that has to be done. And that's stuff that has to be done. And that's stuff that has to be done. And we've looked at, well, we could we've looked at, well, we could we've looked at, well, we could outsource that, etc., etc., but it's not outsource that, etc., etc., but it's not outsource that, etc., etc., but it's not worth the hassle. I think this is a worth the hassle. I think this is a worth the hassle. I think this is a bigger conversation in marriage that we bigger conversation in marriage that we bigger conversation in marriage that we do address in this conversation, I'm do address in this conversation, I'm do address in this conversation, I'm Fighting for Us, and especially the Fighting for Us, and especially the Fighting for Us, and especially the career conversation. So, what we career conversation. So, what we career conversation. So, what we launched together as a nonprofit was launched together as a nonprofit was launched together as a nonprofit was largely dependent on Gabe. It was largely dependent on Gabe. It was largely dependent on Gabe. It was something he felt like was obedient to something he felt like was obedient to something he felt like was obedient to God. Um, he felt the call, the mission, God. Um, he felt the call, the mission, God. Um, he felt the call, the mission, the I helped kind of scribe some of the the I helped kind of scribe some of the the I helped kind of scribe some of the things coming out of him. I remember things coming out of him. I remember things coming out of him. I remember like, championing and cheering for him, like, championing and cheering for him, like, championing and cheering for him, but I was birthing babies. Like, that but I was birthing babies. Like, that but I was birthing babies. Like, that was my mission in that moment, and that was my mission in that moment, and that was my mission in that moment, and that was my full center. And he had his. And was my full center. And he had his. And was my full center. And he had his. And so, I came alongside, but it wasn't so, I came alongside, but it wasn't so, I came alongside, but it wasn't like, yes, we are co-founders of Think like, yes, we are co-founders of Think like, yes, we are co-founders of Think Media, but but back then that's what it Media, but but back then that's what it Media, but but back then that's what it looked like. Like we we we got to lean looked like. Like we we we got to lean looked like. Like we we we got to lean on each other. It wasn't until about a on each other. It wasn't until about a on each other. It wasn't until about a decade after that that we moved to New decade after that that we moved to New decade after that that we moved to New York City and I developed panic York City and I developed panic York City and I developed panic disorder. I did not want to go, disorder. I did not want to go, disorder. I did not want to go, but we we got there and God in His mercy but we we got there and God in His mercy but we we got there and God in His mercy brought me out of that about a year and brought me out of that about a year and brought me out of that about a year and a half later. And then Gabe really a half later. And then Gabe really a half later. And then Gabe really encouraged me to write. And so over that encouraged me to write. And so over that encouraged me to write. And so over that over time I just started to write about over time I just started to write about over time I just started to write about mental health in the church space and mental health in the church space and mental health in the church space and things like that and he calls 2012 the things like that and he calls 2012 the things like that and he calls 2012 the year of Rebecca. And it was really this year of Rebecca. And it was really this year of Rebecca. And it was really this pause of going, okay, she's been running pause of going, okay, she's been running pause of going, okay, she's been running alongside me and she's kind of been alongside me and she's kind of been alongside me and she's kind of been picking up the pieces wherever they are.

picking up the pieces wherever they are. picking up the pieces wherever they are. Might not be in the center of her Might not be in the center of her Might not be in the center of her wheelhouse or her lane, wheelhouse or her lane, wheelhouse or her lane, but I actually want to turn the but I actually want to turn the but I actually want to turn the attention toward her and go, what can I attention toward her and go, what can I attention toward her and go, what can I do to come alongside her? And so we've do to come alongside her? And so we've do to come alongside her? And so we've kind of had these kind of had these kind of had these two vocational pursuits now under one two vocational pursuits now under one two vocational pursuits now under one roof and what we have found even in our roof and what we have found even in our roof and what we have found even in our worlds whether I'm a writer or speaker worlds whether I'm a writer or speaker worlds whether I'm a writer or speaker on mental health and faith or he is this on mental health and faith or he is this on mental health and faith or he is this cultural cultural cultural like guru on Christians on the front like guru on Christians on the front like guru on Christians on the front lines of arts, media, government, lines of arts, media, government, lines of arts, media, government, policy, education, you name it. There's policy, education, you name it. There's policy, education, you name it. There's still a concentric circle in the middle still a concentric circle in the middle still a concentric circle in the middle where we overlap and we pull out the where we overlap and we pull out the where we overlap and we pull out the best of each other doing the thing that best of each other doing the thing that best of each other doing the thing that we both feel compelled to do. Yeah, I we both feel compelled to do. Yeah, I we both feel compelled to do. Yeah, I think I think I for for husbands who've think I think I for for husbands who've think I think I for for husbands who've been in marriage for a decade or more, been in marriage for a decade or more, been in marriage for a decade or more, let's say, and they're kind of finding let's say, and they're kind of finding let's say, and they're kind of finding themselves in this season where this themselves in this season where this themselves in this season where this synergy is not happening because they're synergy is not happening because they're synergy is not happening because they're all out doing their thing and the wife's all out doing their thing and the wife's all out doing their thing and the wife's supporting which happens traditionally I supporting which happens traditionally I supporting which happens traditionally I think in a lot of these a lot of think in a lot of these a lot of think in a lot of these a lot of marriages marriages marriages because in the church sometimes that's because in the church sometimes that's because in the church sometimes that's what we're told is supposed to be what we're told is supposed to be what we're told is supposed to be marriage. I grew deeply convicted to see marriage. I grew deeply convicted to see marriage. I grew deeply convicted to see Rebecca Rebecca Rebecca not using her gifts, not not having not using her gifts, not not having not using her gifts, not not having space to use her gifts because all the space to use her gifts because all the space to use her gifts because all the attention was to me using my gifts and I attention was to me using my gifts and I attention was to me using my gifts and I think God just helped me see that think God just helped me see that think God just helped me see that if I could just come alongside him as a if I could just come alongside him as a if I could just come alongside him as a husband cultivate like the gifts that husband cultivate like the gifts that husband cultivate like the gifts that were there before we got married, before were there before we got married, before were there before we got married, before she started having babies. I mean she's she started having babies. I mean she's she started having babies. I mean she's a gifted professional like great a gifted professional like great a gifted professional like great communicator, great leader. Like she communicator, great leader. Like she communicator, great leader. Like she grew up as a great leader in high grew up as a great leader in high grew up as a great leader in high school. She led her marching band. She school. She led her marching band. She school. She led her marching band. She was like the top drum major in the was like the top drum major in the was like the top drum major in the southeast. You know, she's got the southeast. You know, she's got the southeast. You know, she's got the trophies to prove it. When I look back trophies to prove it. When I look back trophies to prove it. When I look back and realized that in her life it started and realized that in her life it started and realized that in her life it started to almost dwindle into this little box

to almost dwindle into this little box to almost dwindle into this little box that was being my wife. I realized God's that was being my wife. I realized God's that was being my wife. I realized God's got a calling on her life that's as got a calling on her life that's as got a calling on her life that's as important and probably more important important and probably more important important and probably more important than my life. than my life. than my life. But if the husband if I don't come But if the husband if I don't come But if the husband if I don't come alongside and help cultivate that, see alongside and help cultivate that, see alongside and help cultivate that, see it, believe in her, help guide however I it, believe in her, help guide however I it, believe in her, help guide however I can from my experience towards her can from my experience towards her can from my experience towards her starting to realize that herself then I starting to realize that herself then I starting to realize that herself then I actually would be getting in the way of actually would be getting in the way of actually would be getting in the way of probably what God wanted to do. So that probably what God wanted to do. So that probably what God wanted to do. So that was where this 2012 year what 13 years was where this 2012 year what 13 years was where this 2012 year what 13 years ago ago ago took place and that became the beginning took place and that became the beginning took place and that became the beginning of her starting to develop her own of her starting to develop her own of her starting to develop her own voice, confidence voice, confidence voice, confidence and then us try to approach that going, and then us try to approach that going, and then us try to approach that going, look, God's got a calling on both of our look, God's got a calling on both of our look, God's got a calling on both of our lives that doesn't cause us to sacrifice lives that doesn't cause us to sacrifice lives that doesn't cause us to sacrifice our children or leave home for it or we our children or leave home for it or we our children or leave home for it or we need to both be working 60 hours a week need to both be working 60 hours a week need to both be working 60 hours a week and traveling all the time, but let's and traveling all the time, but let's and traveling all the time, but let's try to find a way together to sort try to find a way together to sort try to find a way together to sort through how we going to do this. And through how we going to do this. And through how we going to do this. And that became our journey this I think that became our journey this I think that became our journey this I think we're both sharper in our in our we're both sharper in our in our we're both sharper in our in our vocational pursuit because I still lean vocational pursuit because I still lean vocational pursuit because I still lean on you in a lot of ways. You have I on you in a lot of ways. You have I on you in a lot of ways. You have I think this gift of faith that I need and think this gift of faith that I need and think this gift of faith that I need and you lean on me in strategy sometimes you lean on me in strategy sometimes you lean on me in strategy sometimes because that just comes a little more because that just comes a little more because that just comes a little more naturally for me. And we all have that naturally for me. And we all have that naturally for me. And we all have that bent in that birthright gifting from the bent in that birthright gifting from the bent in that birthright gifting from the womb. So let's harness that in one womb. So let's harness that in one womb. So let's harness that in one another. It doesn't mean you abdicate another. It doesn't mean you abdicate another. It doesn't mean you abdicate what you've been given or you do either, what you've been given or you do either, what you've been given or you do either, but it's going like God put you together but it's going like God put you together but it's going like God put you together for a reason. He's put something in both for a reason. He's put something in both for a reason. He's put something in both of you that are uniquely formed for a of you that are uniquely formed for a of you that are uniquely formed for a reason. Catalyze that. That's one of the reason. Catalyze that. That's one of the reason. Catalyze that. That's one of the reasons I really wanted to ask the reasons I really wanted to ask the reasons I really wanted to ask the question, you know, when I look back on question, you know, when I look back on question, you know, when I look back on it just to give a little more context to it just to give a little more context to it just to give a little more context to our situation and I'm thinking about all our situation and I'm thinking about all our situation and I'm thinking about all the young couples who are watching this the young couples who are watching this the young couples who are watching this trying to go, okay, we've been married trying to go, okay, we've been married trying to go, okay, we've been married three years trying to figure this stuff

three years trying to figure this stuff three years trying to figure this stuff out or we're dating. So, you know, Tony out or we're dating. So, you know, Tony out or we're dating. So, you know, Tony was a lawyer and a pharmacist. She was was a lawyer and a pharmacist. She was was a lawyer and a pharmacist. She was actually when I started doing what I do actually when I started doing what I do actually when I started doing what I do now when the company was born so to now when the company was born so to now when the company was born so to speak, Tony was opening up a new chapter speak, Tony was opening up a new chapter speak, Tony was opening up a new chapter in her law practice. Like a whole new in her law practice. Like a whole new in her law practice. Like a whole new job, new chapter of it. And then she job, new chapter of it. And then she job, new chapter of it. And then she wound so she wasn't involved at all. Uh wound so she wasn't involved at all. Uh wound so she wasn't involved at all. Uh I was running it solo. I think of her as I was running it solo. I think of her as I was running it solo. I think of her as a founder because legally she was, but a founder because legally she was, but a founder because legally she was, but she was like busy and our kids were she was like busy and our kids were she was like busy and our kids were still just finishing up being at home. still just finishing up being at home. still just finishing up being at home. And then um you know, she I had a year And then um you know, she I had a year And then um you know, she I had a year of Tony in 2021 where she released her of Tony in 2021 where she released her of Tony in 2021 where she released her first book. I came alongside her. I first book. I came alongside her. I first book. I came alongside her. I would travel hurt with her to speaking would travel hurt with her to speaking would travel hurt with her to speaking events. It's like I get to carry her events. It's like I get to carry her events. It's like I get to carry her bags, right? That kind of thing. And now bags, right? That kind of thing. And now bags, right? That kind of thing. And now she does our legal contracts and some of she does our legal contracts and some of she does our legal contracts and some of the back end work. Plus still has her the back end work. Plus still has her the back end work. Plus still has her own ministry coaching couples, speaking, own ministry coaching couples, speaking, own ministry coaching couples, speaking, leading retreats, etc. leading retreats, etc. leading retreats, etc. interviewing her and loved loved that interviewing her and loved loved that interviewing her and loved loved that book and it was help paramount for us. book and it was help paramount for us. book and it was help paramount for us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, so she also does the Yeah, and you know, so she also does the Yeah, and you know, so she also does the receipts because she's a good human receipts because she's a good human receipts because she's a good human being.

being. being. It's about three minutes a day, right? It's about three minutes a day, right? It's about three minutes a day, right? But it's one of those things where you But it's one of those things where you But it's one of those things where you can default to to that kind of thing. can default to to that kind of thing. can default to to that kind of thing. Any advice or principles or Any advice or principles or Any advice or principles or things to really watch for things to really watch for things to really watch for for young leaders who are sort of for young leaders who are sort of for young leaders who are sort of embarking on this phase where you we're embarking on this phase where you we're embarking on this phase where you we're married and we're going to be working married and we're going to be working married and we're going to be working together slash doing ministry together. together slash doing ministry together. together slash doing ministry together. Well, recognizing their seasons in life Well, recognizing their seasons in life Well, recognizing their seasons in life that some seasons like the receipt that some seasons like the receipt that some seasons like the receipt season right now. Like we've had seasons season right now. Like we've had seasons season right now. Like we've had seasons where Rebecca was handling all the where Rebecca was handling all the where Rebecca was handling all the finances for our home cuz she had the finances for our home cuz she had the finances for our home cuz she had the attention towards it. Yeah. Um but then attention towards it. Yeah. Um but then attention towards it. Yeah. Um but then that shifted to me a few years ago and that shifted to me a few years ago and that shifted to me a few years ago and so I took it on. So it so I don't know so I took it on. So it so I don't know so I took it on. So it so I don't know that any young couple should say this is that any young couple should say this is that any young couple should say this is always going to be what each of us does always going to be what each of us does always going to be what each of us does in terms of our roles in the home, our in terms of our roles in the home, our in terms of our roles in the home, our duties. I think I probably put away more duties. I think I probably put away more duties. I think I probably put away more dishes than Rebecca does right now. I dishes than Rebecca does right now. I dishes than Rebecca does right now. I fold I do fold a lot of laundry. fold I do fold a lot of laundry. fold I do fold a lot of laundry. even complaining. But it's okay. I'm up even complaining. But it's okay. I'm up even complaining. But it's okay. I'm up earlier like it's easy for me. Like it earlier like it's easy for me. Like it earlier like it's easy for me. Like it doesn't stress me out. And so we've doesn't stress me out. And so we've doesn't stress me out. And so we've never had these roles that's like, oh, never had these roles that's like, oh, never had these roles that's like, oh, Rebecca has to do laundry and put it put Rebecca has to do laundry and put it put Rebecca has to do laundry and put it put it away. No, I can do that. I'm capable it away. No, I can do that. I'm capable it away. No, I can do that. I'm capable of doing it. I I can be really of doing it. I I can be really of doing it. I I can be really productive. I can get two things done at productive. I can get two things done at productive. I can get two things done at once. So I just think I would caution once. So I just think I would caution once. So I just think I would caution couples not to fall into these traps of couples not to fall into these traps of couples not to fall into these traps of this is what you do, this is what I do, this is what you do, this is what I do, this is what you do, this is what I do, this is how it's going to be.

this is how it's going to be. this is how it's going to be. very fluid in that too. I probably I do very fluid in that too. I probably I do very fluid in that too. I probably I do a lot of laundry. Tony does her share, a lot of laundry. Tony does her share, a lot of laundry. Tony does her share, but like that doesn't bother me and I but like that doesn't bother me and I but like that doesn't bother me and I enjoy doing it. That kind of thing. And enjoy doing it. That kind of thing. And enjoy doing it. That kind of thing. And at least for our generation that was at least for our generation that was at least for our generation that was unique. It was sort of you define the unique. It was sort of you define the unique. It was sort of you define the role or you know, the men do outside, role or you know, the men do outside, role or you know, the men do outside, women do inside, that kind of thing and women do inside, that kind of thing and women do inside, that kind of thing and and we're already breaking those rules and we're already breaking those rules and we're already breaking those rules up. That's what that's what I would add up. That's what that's what I would add up. That's what that's what I would add to that is just that this co-vocation to that is just that this co-vocation to that is just that this co-vocation launching is also co-parenting. You launching is also co-parenting. You launching is also co-parenting. You know, he's not I'm not called more to know, he's not I'm not called more to know, he's not I'm not called more to motherhood than he is to fatherhood. motherhood than he is to fatherhood. motherhood than he is to fatherhood. And then we also have a home that we And then we also have a home that we And then we also have a home that we share and so because we both work share and so because we both work share and so because we both work then we both come home a little earlier then we both come home a little earlier then we both come home a little earlier and then we both co-parent, we both do and then we both co-parent, we both do and then we both co-parent, we both do stuff around the house. It It does feel stuff around the house. It It does feel stuff around the house. It It does feel like there's a synergy we've had to like there's a synergy we've had to like there's a synergy we've had to learn with that because we have two learn with that because we have two learn with that because we have two children with special needs that will be children with special needs that will be children with special needs that will be with us as empty nesters indefinitely. with us as empty nesters indefinitely. with us as empty nesters indefinitely. Both 20 almost 25 and almost 12. So we Both 20 almost 25 and almost 12. So we Both 20 almost 25 and almost 12. So we understand like having kiddos with Down understand like having kiddos with Down understand like having kiddos with Down syndrome like it's the four of us and syndrome like it's the four of us and syndrome like it's the four of us and we're going to have to figure out a we're going to have to figure out a we're going to have to figure out a rhythm of longevity that doesn't allow rhythm of longevity that doesn't allow rhythm of longevity that doesn't allow either of us to abdicate parenting or either of us to abdicate parenting or either of us to abdicate parenting or vocational obedience to God. So I think vocational obedience to God. So I think vocational obedience to God. So I think we do have a unique dynamic, but we were we do have a unique dynamic, but we were we do have a unique dynamic, but we were forced into it and I I do recommend this forced into it and I I do recommend this forced into it and I I do recommend this a lot. People always say, can you both a lot. People always say, can you both a lot. People always say, can you both have callings or careers or passions and have callings or careers or passions and have callings or careers or passions and be good parents?

be good parents? be good parents? And I just it's the question can you And I just it's the question can you And I just it's the question can you have it all? That they ask women all the have it all? That they ask women all the have it all? That they ask women all the time. Can you have it all? And I would time. Can you have it all? And I would time. Can you have it all? And I would say say say ask men that. Yeah, but I would say you ask men that. Yeah, but I would say you ask men that. Yeah, but I would say you can and you can have even like two can and you can have even like two can and you can have even like two career two callings under one roof and career two callings under one roof and career two callings under one roof and you can do it successfully, but you you can do it successfully, but you you can do it successfully, but you can't do it all at the same time. And I can't do it all at the same time. And I can't do it all at the same time. And I think as long as we embrace the rhythm think as long as we embrace the rhythm think as long as we embrace the rhythm of it and knowing like to everything of it and knowing like to everything of it and knowing like to everything there is a season, we slow a lot when there is a season, we slow a lot when there is a season, we slow a lot when the kids are home in the summers, in the the kids are home in the summers, in the the kids are home in the summers, in the winter month of December. So just winter month of December. So just winter month of December. So just knowing even our cadence is more knowing even our cadence is more knowing even our cadence is more accelerated certain months of the year accelerated certain months of the year accelerated certain months of the year than it is others. And because we, you than it is others. And because we, you than it is others. And because we, you know, I write, I can plan things around know, I write, I can plan things around know, I write, I can plan things around that or teach. So it just requires some that or teach. So it just requires some that or teach. So it just requires some creativity. And prince the principle to creativity. And prince the principle to creativity. And prince the principle to me is looking at one another and saying me is looking at one another and saying me is looking at one another and saying I'm not better than you. Like I'm we I'm not better than you. Like I'm we I'm not better than you. Like I'm we each can humble ourselves and say I just each can humble ourselves and say I just each can humble ourselves and say I just want to serve. Wherever I can pick up want to serve. Wherever I can pick up want to serve. Wherever I can pick up the help that's needed and that means the help that's needed and that means the help that's needed and that means sometimes Rebecca's outside with me sometimes Rebecca's outside with me sometimes Rebecca's outside with me helping me on some project outside that helping me on some project outside that helping me on some project outside that like normally I could maybe do it by like normally I could maybe do it by like normally I could maybe do it by myself, but she's like, what do you need myself, but she's like, what do you need myself, but she's like, what do you need help with? And I love that and I'm help with? And I love that and I'm help with? And I love that and I'm trying to do the same for her and I just trying to do the same for her and I just trying to do the same for her and I just think that's the general spirit think that's the general spirit think that's the general spirit that's been good in our marriage when that's been good in our marriage when that's been good in our marriage when we've had our best moments is we're both we've had our best moments is we're both we've had our best moments is we're both just going, yeah, I'm fine jumping in.

just going, yeah, I'm fine jumping in. just going, yeah, I'm fine jumping in. I'm not going to hold it against you. I'm not going to hold it against you. I'm not going to hold it against you. It's not a transaction. If I do this for It's not a transaction. If I do this for It's not a transaction. If I do this for you, you'll do this for me. And that's I you, you'll do this for me. And that's I you, you'll do this for me. And that's I think can happen a lot in marriage think can happen a lot in marriage think can happen a lot in marriage especially younger marriages. I'll do especially younger marriages. I'll do especially younger marriages. I'll do this for you, but you need to have sex this for you, but you need to have sex this for you, but you need to have sex with me because I did the dishes, right? with me because I did the dishes, right? with me because I did the dishes, right? So it's just collaborative. Yeah. So it's just collaborative. Yeah. So it's just collaborative. Yeah. Um so working together is one thing. Um so working together is one thing. Um so working together is one thing. Writing a book on marriage is another. Writing a book on marriage is another. Writing a book on marriage is another. What were those What were those What were those Don't do it. What were those dynamics Don't do it. What were those dynamics Don't do it. What were those dynamics like? like? like? Oh, we were terrified. Oh, we were terrified. Oh, we were terrified. Um anything you write you must learn and Um anything you write you must learn and Um anything you write you must learn and usually that's the topic that comes usually that's the topic that comes usually that's the topic that comes after you while you're writing. So we after you while you're writing. So we after you while you're writing. So we were very nervous about it. We've never were very nervous about it. We've never were very nervous about it. We've never co-written a book and we've definitely co-written a book and we've definitely co-written a book and we've definitely never written a book on marriage. So never written a book on marriage. So never written a book on marriage. So this was a double whammy, this was a double whammy, this was a double whammy, but God was really kind. but God was really kind. but God was really kind. And and I think for us the conviction And and I think for us the conviction And and I think for us the conviction came cuz we've we've hosted retreats for came cuz we've we've hosted retreats for came cuz we've we've hosted retreats for over 20 years for couples. So we've done over 20 years for couples. So we've done over 20 years for couples. So we've done a lot of that together, but it's mostly a lot of that together, but it's mostly a lot of that together, but it's mostly just private conversations, coaching just private conversations, coaching just private conversations, coaching people through that. We've done a lot of people through that. We've done a lot of people through that. We've done a lot of marriage retreats these last five years marriage retreats these last five years marriage retreats these last five years and we've seen the impact of unpacking and we've seen the impact of unpacking and we've seen the impact of unpacking our story and being really vulnerable our story and being really vulnerable our story and being really vulnerable about the journey we've been on. My deep about the journey we've been on. My deep about the journey we've been on. My deep kind of emotional health work that was kind of emotional health work that was kind of emotional health work that was required for her and I to experience required for her and I to experience required for her and I to experience intimacy and connection, her own work intimacy and connection, her own work intimacy and connection, her own work from her childhood traumas.

from her childhood traumas. from her childhood traumas. And we realized that in talking about And we realized that in talking about And we realized that in talking about this and putting our story out on the this and putting our story out on the this and putting our story out on the table, the fight that we've had to have table, the fight that we've had to have table, the fight that we've had to have for our own relationship, this is for our own relationship, this is for our own relationship, this is empowering other people and we need to empowering other people and we need to empowering other people and we need to keep moving with that and the next step keep moving with that and the next step keep moving with that and the next step was let's let's try to articulate this was let's let's try to articulate this was let's let's try to articulate this in a way that you know, we have 50 in a way that you know, we have 50 in a way that you know, we have 50 couples maybe come to our retreats, but couples maybe come to our retreats, but couples maybe come to our retreats, but we're never going to get through enough we're never going to get through enough we're never going to get through enough couples that way. Like maybe we could couples that way. Like maybe we could couples that way. Like maybe we could try to tell this story in a way that try to tell this story in a way that try to tell this story in a way that could just be useful for people. And And could just be useful for people. And And could just be useful for people. And And I'll say it also is coming on the heels I'll say it also is coming on the heels I'll say it also is coming on the heels of a moment where it feels like the of a moment where it feels like the of a moment where it feels like the marriage conversation in the church marriage conversation in the church marriage conversation in the church there's been a little bit of a loosening there's been a little bit of a loosening there's been a little bit of a loosening around to meet covenant commitment and around to meet covenant commitment and around to meet covenant commitment and and couples taking so seriously these and couples taking so seriously these and couples taking so seriously these covenants that are going to require you covenants that are going to require you covenants that are going to require you to fight for each other and to fight for to fight for each other and to fight for to fight for each other and to fight for this relationship and not to just escape this relationship and not to just escape this relationship and not to just escape when things get hard or when you realize when things get hard or when you realize when things get hard or when you realize you're fighting a lot which we've fought you're fighting a lot which we've fought you're fighting a lot which we've fought a lot and we talk a lot about that. a lot and we talk a lot about that. a lot and we talk a lot about that. fighters. fighters. fighters. We know how to fight. We've done it. And We know how to fight. We've done it. And We know how to fight. We've done it. And we still have fights. So we still have fights. So we still have fights. So I think removing some of that I think removing some of that I think removing some of that sense of people like it's abnormal that sense of people like it's abnormal that sense of people like it's abnormal that you're fighting. No, this is very normal you're fighting. No, this is very normal you're fighting. No, this is very normal that you are married to somebody who's that you are married to somebody who's that you are married to somebody who's very different than you is going to hit very different than you is going to hit very different than you is going to hit you in ways that like just are so you in ways that like just are so you in ways that like just are so frustrating. And of course it'd be frustrating. And of course it'd be frustrating. And of course it'd be easier to just walk out the door and go easier to just walk out the door and go easier to just walk out the door and go self-actualize and and do your own self-actualize and and do your own self-actualize and and do your own thing. And it feels like in our cultural thing. And it feels like in our cultural thing. And it feels like in our cultural moment more and more people are finding moment more and more people are finding moment more and more people are finding those voices in their life that are those voices in their life that are those voices in their life that are saying that's okay. Like you should do saying that's okay. Like you should do saying that's okay. Like you should do that. That's going to be better for your that. That's going to be better for your that. That's going to be better for your health, your emotional health, your health, your emotional health, your health, your emotional health, your mental health.

mental health. mental health. And we just think God's got a better And we just think God's got a better And we just think God's got a better plan for us in this. But it's going to plan for us in this. But it's going to plan for us in this. But it's going to require some hard work require some hard work require some hard work and getting into some things that aren't and getting into some things that aren't and getting into some things that aren't easy to talk about and work through and easy to talk about and work through and easy to talk about and work through and we just want to encourage people and we just want to encourage people and we just want to encourage people and empower them that they can do that with empower them that they can do that with empower them that they can do that with God's help. What do you fight about? God's help. What do you fight about? God's help. What do you fight about? Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Everything. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Well, how I load the dishwasher, right? Well, how I load the dishwasher, right? Well, how I load the dishwasher, right? I mean, I mean, I mean, I can't put enough things in that I can't put enough things in that I can't put enough things in that dishwasher for Rebecca to say dishwasher for Rebecca to say dishwasher for Rebecca to say I'm the maximizer that's so obnoxious. I I'm the maximizer that's so obnoxious. I I'm the maximizer that's so obnoxious. I was like, I don't want to load unload was like, I don't want to load unload was like, I don't want to load unload that thing every day. But we're going to that thing every day. But we're going to that thing every day. But we're going to load put like three or four days worth load put like three or four days worth load put like three or four days worth in one load that you breaks things. So in one load that you breaks things. So in one load that you breaks things. So um we fight about how to cook a proper um we fight about how to cook a proper um we fight about how to cook a proper fried egg. Um we we've fought about fried egg. Um we we've fought about fried egg. Um we we've fought about gardening every we have chickens and gardening every we have chickens and gardening every we have chickens and gardens and sourdough we gardens and sourdough we gardens and sourdough we we fight about weeds. we fight about weeds. we fight about weeds. Directions, like even though there's a Directions, like even though there's a Directions, like even though there's a GPS that tells us the fastest way GPS that tells us the fastest way GPS that tells us the fastest way sometimes that's still a discussion. sometimes that's still a discussion. sometimes that's still a discussion. way. way. way. Um yeah. Um and then more serious Um yeah. Um and then more serious Um yeah. Um and then more serious things. I mean, we we fight about like things. I mean, we we fight about like things. I mean, we we fight about like where should we live, you know, what where should we live, you know, what where should we live, you know, what what's the right home, what's the right what's the right home, what's the right what's the right home, what's the right environment for our kids. environment for our kids. environment for our kids. We fight about money. You know, helping We fight about money. You know, helping We fight about money. You know, helping versus doing for versus training. We versus doing for versus training. We versus doing for versus training. We fight about money, how much things cost.

fight about money, how much things cost. fight about money, how much things cost. We fight about everything. We fight about everything. We fight about everything. sex, like how frequently should we be sex, like how frequently should we be sex, like how frequently should we be having sex and Or should we if if he having sex and Or should we if if he having sex and Or should we if if he wasn't kind. wasn't kind. wasn't kind. I don't think that's that's never been a I don't think that's that's never been a I don't think that's that's never been a fight. fight. fight. I just mean in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. I just mean in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. I just mean in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for going there cuz you Well, thanks for going there cuz you Well, thanks for going there cuz you gave me a phrase a few years ago. I gave me a phrase a few years ago. I gave me a phrase a few years ago. I think it was a conversation we were think it was a conversation we were think it was a conversation we were having where you talked about a 10-year having where you talked about a 10-year having where you talked about a 10-year argument and I may have borrowed that. argument and I may have borrowed that. argument and I may have borrowed that. Yeah. I think every couple that's been Yeah. I think every couple that's been Yeah. I think every couple that's been married for more than 10 years has a married for more than 10 years has a married for more than 10 years has a 10-year argument. What are a couple of 10-year argument. What are a couple of 10-year argument. What are a couple of your 10-year arguments? Yeah, I would your 10-year arguments? Yeah, I would your 10-year arguments? Yeah, I would say say say it was in the first 10 years he was it was in the first 10 years he was it was in the first 10 years he was working more and I was home more and we working more and I was home more and we working more and I was home more and we fought about when he was coming home for fought about when he was coming home for fought about when he was coming home for sure. And I did feel a lostness in that sure. And I did feel a lostness in that sure. And I did feel a lostness in that season because I always thought I would season because I always thought I would season because I always thought I would be a working mom um both inside and be a working mom um both inside and be a working mom um both inside and outside the home. And um but because our outside the home. And um but because our outside the home. And um but because our oldest had um a Down syndrome diagnosis oldest had um a Down syndrome diagnosis oldest had um a Down syndrome diagnosis three He was our third year in our three He was our third year in our three He was our third year in our marriage we had our firstborn son with marriage we had our firstborn son with marriage we had our firstborn son with Cade with Down syndrome. Within about 10 Cade with Down syndrome. Within about 10 Cade with Down syndrome. Within about 10 months he was up to eight therapies a months he was up to eight therapies a months he was up to eight therapies a week for about eight hours a week and I week for about eight hours a week and I week for about eight hours a week and I just knew God just like your team is just knew God just like your team is just knew God just like your team is knowing more than you on what's going on knowing more than you on what's going on knowing more than you on what's going on that you're trying to lead like it's that you're trying to lead like it's that you're trying to lead like it's time to come home. So that just became a time to come home. So that just became a time to come home. So that just became a clear thing like I I loved motherhood. I clear thing like I I loved motherhood. I clear thing like I I loved motherhood. I loved those childhood years um those loved those childhood years um those loved those childhood years um those toddler and and newborn years. But it toddler and and newborn years. But it toddler and and newborn years. But it was like we had to you know, back to was like we had to you know, back to was like we had to you know, back to back to back. Um back to back. Um back to back. Um three total in that time and I felt a three total in that time and I felt a three total in that time and I felt a little bit of like a swollen silence in little bit of like a swollen silence in little bit of like a swollen silence in the home and I felt very lonely. I felt the home and I felt very lonely. I felt the home and I felt very lonely. I felt disconnected a little bit um partly disconnected a little bit um partly disconnected a little bit um partly because of the special needs lane of it

because of the special needs lane of it because of the special needs lane of it and the delay of you know, development and the delay of you know, development and the delay of you know, development for Cade. And then he's running and hard for Cade. And then he's running and hard for Cade. And then he's running and hard charging and I just was longing for charging and I just was longing for charging and I just was longing for intimacy and connection. But he would intimacy and connection. But he would intimacy and connection. But he would run out of words cuz men don't have as run out of words cuz men don't have as run out of words cuz men don't have as many as women anyways. But he would many as women anyways. But he would many as women anyways. But he would definitely run out by the time he got definitely run out by the time he got definitely run out by the time he got home and so I would just say the fight home and so I would just say the fight home and so I would just say the fight was I I almost nagged him a lot like why was I I almost nagged him a lot like why was I I almost nagged him a lot like why aren't you here more? Why aren't you aren't you here more? Why aren't you aren't you here more? Why aren't you more present? You know, I just felt a more present? You know, I just felt a more present? You know, I just felt a little codependent in that season. Um little codependent in that season. Um little codependent in that season. Um and so I'd pick things apart and um I and so I'd pick things apart and um I and so I'd pick things apart and um I think he felt the pressure from that. think he felt the pressure from that. think he felt the pressure from that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say for me it's and we talk And I would say for me it's and we talk And I would say for me it's and we talk about this a lot in our journey and in about this a lot in our journey and in about this a lot in our journey and in the book the book the book was sex. It was it was I don't think was sex. It was it was I don't think was sex. It was it was I don't think we're having sex enough. we're having sex enough. we're having sex enough. And like that conversation once every And like that conversation once every And like that conversation once every six months would come up. Right. six months would come up. Right. six months would come up. Right. We'd resolve it. We'd talk through it. We'd resolve it. We'd talk through it. We'd resolve it. We'd talk through it. We'd process together like what are the We'd process together like what are the We'd process together like what are the dynamics? Like what needs to change? And dynamics? Like what needs to change? And dynamics? Like what needs to change? And and let me be very forthcoming. We have and let me be very forthcoming. We have and let me be very forthcoming. We have we write this again in in the book. But we write this again in in the book. But we write this again in in the book. But we would have sex a couple times a week. we would have sex a couple times a week. we would have sex a couple times a week. It wasn't like we weren't having sex. It It wasn't like we weren't having sex. It It wasn't like we weren't having sex. It was more like I was a little more needy was more like I was a little more needy was more like I was a little more needy Mhm. I think than was healthy for what Mhm. I think than was healthy for what Mhm. I think than was healthy for what it meant to me in our relationship for it meant to me in our relationship for it meant to me in our relationship for us to have connection.

us to have connection. us to have connection. What did it mean to you? What did it mean to you? What did it mean to you? To me it meant that our marriage was To me it meant that our marriage was To me it meant that our marriage was good if we were having a lot of sex. good if we were having a lot of sex. good if we were having a lot of sex. Like this was the one benchmark of she's Like this was the one benchmark of she's Like this was the one benchmark of she's happy, I'm happy. Um intimacy was being happy, I'm happy. Um intimacy was being happy, I'm happy. Um intimacy was being experienced and and it's just things I experienced and and it's just things I experienced and and it's just things I didn't know about myself early I mean didn't know about myself early I mean didn't know about myself early I mean really early in my journey up until this really early in my journey up until this really early in my journey up until this last decade last decade last decade that I felt like sex was the signal that that I felt like sex was the signal that that I felt like sex was the signal that things are amazing with us. Even if for things are amazing with us. Even if for things are amazing with us. Even if for her they weren't amazing. So she could her they weren't amazing. So she could her they weren't amazing. So she could be upset with you coming home and you're be upset with you coming home and you're be upset with you coming home and you're like, well, as long as we have sex then like, well, as long as we have sex then like, well, as long as we have sex then Oh, he would definitely win me over. Oh, he would definitely win me over. Oh, he would definitely win me over. Right. He knew that I wouldn't like we Right. He knew that I wouldn't like we Right. He knew that I wouldn't like we wouldn't go from a fight to like, you wouldn't go from a fight to like, you wouldn't go from a fight to like, you know, sex. But it it was more I think know, sex. But it it was more I think know, sex. But it it was more I think your view of sex and mine was different. your view of sex and mine was different. your view of sex and mine was different. And we talked about this in the book. So And we talked about this in the book. So And we talked about this in the book. So sex you can have this continuum from sex you can have this continuum from sex you can have this continuum from transaction to embrace. And so we invite transaction to embrace. And so we invite transaction to embrace. And so we invite the reader go where are you on that the reader go where are you on that the reader go where are you on that scale of one to 10? Is it transaction or scale of one to 10? Is it transaction or scale of one to 10? Is it transaction or is it embrace? And are you somewhere in is it embrace? And are you somewhere in is it embrace? And are you somewhere in the middle? And which of you is where? the middle? And which of you is where? the middle? And which of you is where? Because I think that's really important Because I think that's really important Because I think that's really important because none of us come to marriage with because none of us come to marriage with because none of us come to marriage with a clean slate. We bring our origin story a clean slate. We bring our origin story a clean slate. We bring our origin story with us. My view of sex look different with us. My view of sex look different with us. My view of sex look different than yours for a lot of different than yours for a lot of different than yours for a lot of different reasons. And I felt like a lot of sex reasons. And I felt like a lot of sex reasons. And I felt like a lot of sex was more transaction was more transaction was more transaction if it was all about what he needed, if it was all about what he needed, if it was all about what he needed, right? Whereas cuz men largely are right? Whereas cuz men largely are right? Whereas cuz men largely are vulnerable in sex. Like that's their vulnerable in sex. Like that's their vulnerable in sex. Like that's their vulnerability. Like they need that vulnerability. Like they need that vulnerability. Like they need that physical connection and release so that physical connection and release so that physical connection and release so that they can feel secure and stable in the they can feel secure and stable in the they can feel secure and stable in the world. And women, we are more vulnerable world. And women, we are more vulnerable world. And women, we are more vulnerable emotionally. That's just that's just emotionally. That's just that's just emotionally. That's just that's just true. Um data proves this out. And so I true. Um data proves this out. And so I true. Um data proves this out. And so I need to feel heard. I need to feel seen.

need to feel heard. I need to feel seen. need to feel heard. I need to feel seen. I need to feel like your attunement and I need to feel like your attunement and I need to feel like your attunement and you're present with me um so that I can you're present with me um so that I can you're present with me um so that I can feel connected to you. So you might feel feel connected to you. So you might feel feel connected to you. So you might feel connected to me in this physical union. connected to me in this physical union. connected to me in this physical union. I feel connected to you in this I feel connected to you in this I feel connected to you in this emotional union. Why are women more emotional union. Why are women more emotional union. Why are women more responsible for fulfilling that for men responsible for fulfilling that for men responsible for fulfilling that for men don't feel the responsibility to fulfill don't feel the responsibility to fulfill don't feel the responsibility to fulfill that for women. And so we really had to that for women. And so we really had to that for women. And so we really had to kind of level the playing field and go kind of level the playing field and go kind of level the playing field and go and say you so you have this need and and say you so you have this need and and say you so you have this need and the Bible tells us to not like ignore the Bible tells us to not like ignore the Bible tells us to not like ignore that need. that need. that need. But he also we're also talking about But he also we're also talking about But he also we're also talking about what about the wife's need and how to what about the wife's need and how to what about the wife's need and how to care and tend to her heart and cultivate care and tend to her heart and cultivate care and tend to her heart and cultivate that and nurture that in a way that this that and nurture that in a way that this that and nurture that in a way that this is a reciprocal relationship where both is a reciprocal relationship where both is a reciprocal relationship where both emotional emotional emotional um physical needs are being met through um physical needs are being met through um physical needs are being met through this communion and union. And so it took this communion and union. And so it took this communion and union. And so it took a long time. Yeah. What was happening a long time. Yeah. What was happening a long time. Yeah. What was happening was I didn't know how to meet her was I didn't know how to meet her was I didn't know how to meet her emotional needs. Yeah. I mean, so that's emotional needs. Yeah. I mean, so that's emotional needs. Yeah. I mean, so that's I think a lot of husbands are stuck. I think a lot of husbands are stuck. I think a lot of husbands are stuck. Like their wife's like, I don't feel Like their wife's like, I don't feel Like their wife's like, I don't feel connected to you. Or like I I just want connected to you. Or like I I just want connected to you. Or like I I just want to have a intimacy and the husband's to have a intimacy and the husband's to have a intimacy and the husband's like like like I'm doing my best, but it's not working. I'm doing my best, but it's not working. I'm doing my best, but it's not working. Like I don't I don't know how to Like I don't I don't know how to Like I don't I don't know how to Yeah. I don't quite know how to show up Yeah. I don't quite know how to show up Yeah. I don't quite know how to show up and that was my story. I didn't know how and that was my story. I didn't know how and that was my story. I didn't know how to show up in the way that she needed to show up in the way that she needed to show up in the way that she needed it. And it took 20 year I remember 20 it. And it took 20 year I remember 20 it. And it took 20 year I remember 20 years later us having a conversation and years later us having a conversation and years later us having a conversation and I'm in tears I'm in tears I'm in tears cuz I'm finally recognizing like I had cuz I'm finally recognizing like I had cuz I'm finally recognizing like I had some sorrow, like biblical sorrow some sorrow, like biblical sorrow some sorrow, like biblical sorrow realizing all that for 20 years she'd realizing all that for 20 years she'd realizing all that for 20 years she'd been walking through been walking through been walking through in the effort to connect with me, to to in the effort to connect with me, to to in the effort to connect with me, to to help me, to meet needs help me, to meet needs help me, to meet needs and my inability to show up in some ways and my inability to show up in some ways and my inability to show up in some ways that I was just discovering she needed.

that I was just discovering she needed. that I was just discovering she needed. Mhm. And that was Can you give me an Mhm. And that was Can you give me an Mhm. And that was Can you give me an example? example? example? Excuse my cheap tell that story. Excuse my cheap tell that story. Excuse my cheap tell that story. She's whispering on the podcast. She's whispering on the podcast. She's whispering on the podcast. No, my she's describing I mean, I think No, my she's describing I mean, I think No, my she's describing I mean, I think for the aha for me was my counselor for the aha for me was my counselor for the aha for me was my counselor looking at me one day when we're having looking at me one day when we're having looking at me one day when we're having this conversation and this conversation and this conversation and he's asking me these hard questions. I'm he's asking me these hard questions. I'm he's asking me these hard questions. I'm giving him my best answers and he goes, giving him my best answers and he goes, giving him my best answers and he goes, Gabe, I feel like I'm talking to an Gabe, I feel like I'm talking to an Gabe, I feel like I'm talking to an Excel spreadsheet. Excel spreadsheet. Excel spreadsheet. He goes like you give me the answers, He goes like you give me the answers, He goes like you give me the answers, but it's so logic. Like you're not the but it's so logic. Like you're not the but it's so logic. Like you're not the head heart connection's not happening. head heart connection's not happening. head heart connection's not happening. You're having a hard time processing You're having a hard time processing You're having a hard time processing anything other than just logic. And if anything other than just logic. And if anything other than just logic. And if you're doing that with Rebecca, then I you're doing that with Rebecca, then I you're doing that with Rebecca, then I understand what she's saying. Like she understand what she's saying. Like she understand what she's saying. Like she doesn't feel like she knows your heart. doesn't feel like she knows your heart. doesn't feel like she knows your heart. And that was anxiety producing for me And that was anxiety producing for me And that was anxiety producing for me because I felt stuck. Like I'm like, I because I felt stuck. Like I'm like, I because I felt stuck. Like I'm like, I don't know how to access that. Yeah, you don't know how to access that. Yeah, you don't know how to access that. Yeah, you hadn't been there. No. So how can you hadn't been there. No. So how can you hadn't been there. No. So how can you give it to her? give it to her? give it to her? So it took me on a deep journey into my So it took me on a deep journey into my So it took me on a deep journey into my childhood, childhood traumas. And this childhood, childhood traumas. And this childhood, childhood traumas. And this is you know, we're learning more about is you know, we're learning more about is you know, we're learning more about these journeys that people I think are these journeys that people I think are these journeys that people I think are becoming more aware of of the mental becoming more aware of of the mental becoming more aware of of the mental health, emotional health. Cuz you had an health, emotional health. Cuz you had an health, emotional health. Cuz you had an incident when you were 12. Yeah, when I incident when you were 12. Yeah, when I incident when you were 12. Yeah, when I was in a youth group I had a youth was in a youth group I had a youth was in a youth group I had a youth pastor that really took advantage of my pastor that really took advantage of my pastor that really took advantage of my innocence in a way that I write about in innocence in a way that I write about in innocence in a way that I write about in the book more. But it was one of those the book more. But it was one of those the book more. But it was one of those where I'd built trust with a youth where I'd built trust with a youth where I'd built trust with a youth leader who was in his 30s. I'm I'm 12.

leader who was in his 30s. I'm I'm 12. leader who was in his 30s. I'm I'm 12. And he was a discipler. I mean, believed And he was a discipler. I mean, believed And he was a discipler. I mean, believed in me. I mean, that that was all the in me. I mean, that that was all the in me. I mean, that that was all the appearances that were happening. appearances that were happening. appearances that were happening. But then it there came a moment where he But then it there came a moment where he But then it there came a moment where he began to start talking about explicit began to start talking about explicit began to start talking about explicit things in ways that I was as a young kid things in ways that I was as a young kid things in ways that I was as a young kid unsure of what he was talking about. And unsure of what he was talking about. And unsure of what he was talking about. And and he would invite more of these and he would invite more of these and he would invite more of these conversations and essentially was I conversations and essentially was I conversations and essentially was I believe grooming me believe grooming me believe grooming me because So he'd start talking about because So he'd start talking about because So he'd start talking about sexual things with you. sexual things with you. sexual things with you. about sex with his wife. He would talk about sex with his wife. He would talk about sex with his wife. He would talk about how sex happens. He he wanted to about how sex happens. He he wanted to about how sex happens. He he wanted to answer any question I might have about answer any question I might have about answer any question I might have about sex. And you know, for a young a young sex. And you know, for a young a young sex. And you know, for a young a young child who's just puberty you're like, child who's just puberty you're like, child who's just puberty you're like, well, this is interesting. Like I've not well, this is interesting. Like I've not well, this is interesting. Like I've not heard these things before. Thankfully, I heard these things before. Thankfully, I heard these things before. Thankfully, I was never physically assaulted or was never physically assaulted or was never physically assaulted or molested. But that experience for me molested. But that experience for me molested. But that experience for me actually taught me that I don't know actually taught me that I don't know actually taught me that I don't know that I can trust anybody. Cuz I had that I can trust anybody. Cuz I had that I can trust anybody. Cuz I had trusted this person as a spiritual trusted this person as a spiritual trusted this person as a spiritual mentor, disciple or somebody I could mentor, disciple or somebody I could mentor, disciple or somebody I could talk to about future dreams and things. talk to about future dreams and things. talk to about future dreams and things. And then it all twisted and turned and I And then it all twisted and turned and I And then it all twisted and turned and I realized at that Cuz at 12 year old realized at that Cuz at 12 year old realized at that Cuz at 12 year old there was a moment you're like, this is there was a moment you're like, this is there was a moment you're like, this is off. Like even he had to off. Like even he had to off. Like even he had to he had to figure that out. There like he had to figure that out. There like he had to figure that out. There like just there was enough incidences where just there was enough incidences where just there was enough incidences where he's like, "I'm not comfortable." And he's like, "I'm not comfortable." And he's like, "I'm not comfortable." And yet he never had anyone to process that yet he never had anyone to process that yet he never had anyone to process that with as an adult.

with as an adult. with as an adult. did you do? I was able to get out of did you do? I was able to get out of did you do? I was able to get out of that. that. that. Yeah, totally stuffed it. Felt shame for Yeah, totally stuffed it. Felt shame for Yeah, totally stuffed it. Felt shame for it ever occurring. Cut it off. it ever occurring. Cut it off. it ever occurring. Cut it off. Cut it off. Cut it off. Cut it off. But carried that that shame, the sense But carried that that shame, the sense But carried that that shame, the sense of sexuality being this vision that this of sexuality being this vision that this of sexuality being this vision that this guy had painted of what that was. guy had painted of what that was. guy had painted of what that was. And it made me look at sex in the wrong And it made me look at sex in the wrong And it made me look at sex in the wrong way, which is what we've began to way, which is what we've began to way, which is what we've began to unpack. And I started to realize like my unpack. And I started to realize like my unpack. And I started to realize like my view of what sex ought to be had been view of what sex ought to be had been view of what sex ought to be had been completely distorted. And I'd cut off completely distorted. And I'd cut off completely distorted. And I'd cut off part of my heart. And I And I wasn't part of my heart. And I And I wasn't part of my heart. And I And I wasn't going to allow anybody else going to allow anybody else going to allow anybody else in because in because in because I didn't know who was safe anymore. And I didn't know who was safe anymore. And I didn't know who was safe anymore. And so that even meant Rebecca. Yeah. One so that even meant Rebecca. Yeah. One so that even meant Rebecca. Yeah. One thing your counselor said in that season thing your counselor said in that season thing your counselor said in that season as you were unpacking this cuz you as you were unpacking this cuz you as you were unpacking this cuz you really didn't unpack it until much really didn't unpack it until much really didn't unpack it until much later. Cuz we both knew about it. He later. Cuz we both knew about it. He later. Cuz we both knew about it. He told me when we were dating and it was told me when we were dating and it was told me when we were dating and it was like, "Man, that is weird and like, "Man, that is weird and like, "Man, that is weird and inappropriate and awful." But until you inappropriate and awful." But until you inappropriate and awful." But until you have your own kid at 12, you know, your have your own kid at 12, you know, your have your own kid at 12, you know, your own son, you don't really fully own son, you don't really fully own son, you don't really fully understand it. That was understand it. That was understand it. That was awful. awful. awful. 20, you don't understand the way you do 20, you don't understand the way you do 20, you don't understand the way you do now. now. now. And what And what your counselor said And what And what your counselor said And what And what your counselor said then like she can love you but she can't then like she can love you but she can't then like she can love you but she can't have you. And it was this idea of like have you. And it was this idea of like have you. And it was this idea of like there's a part of his heart that he there's a part of his heart that he there's a part of his heart that he doesn't even have have access to much doesn't even have have access to much doesn't even have have access to much less me. And it was it would take him less me. And it was it would take him less me. And it was it would take him even feeling the grief of like what who even feeling the grief of like what who even feeling the grief of like what who you were at 12 and what you didn't have.

you were at 12 and what you didn't have. you were at 12 and what you didn't have. You didn't have safety to even process You didn't have safety to even process You didn't have safety to even process that. Um some people think like, "Well, that. Um some people think like, "Well, that. Um some people think like, "Well, didn't you have parents? And didn't you didn't you have parents? And didn't you didn't you have parents? And didn't you have, you know, a mom and dad?" But you have, you know, a mom and dad?" But you have, you know, a mom and dad?" But you just don't know how deep these things go just don't know how deep these things go just don't know how deep these things go when like betrayal happens and loyalty when like betrayal happens and loyalty when like betrayal happens and loyalty is forged and as a kid you just are is forged and as a kid you just are is forged and as a kid you just are often taught told, "Don't talk about often taught told, "Don't talk about often taught told, "Don't talk about it." Um and so you just have to harbor it." Um and so you just have to harbor it." Um and so you just have to harbor that alone. And I think I think that's that alone. And I think I think that's that alone. And I think I think that's why a lot of us in the church space why a lot of us in the church space why a lot of us in the church space especially are in trouble sexually as especially are in trouble sexually as especially are in trouble sexually as adults because whatever we encountered adults because whatever we encountered adults because whatever we encountered as kids because our parts work um was as kids because our parts work um was as kids because our parts work um was never explained in the purity culture never explained in the purity culture never explained in the purity culture about like just what God imagined for about like just what God imagined for about like just what God imagined for like a sexual union and husband and wife like a sexual union and husband and wife like a sexual union and husband and wife and how good that can be. And so it and how good that can be. And so it and how good that can be. And so it takes you tripping into that abstinence takes you tripping into that abstinence takes you tripping into that abstinence movement into marriage and then go, movement into marriage and then go, movement into marriage and then go, "Okay, how do we all of a sudden become "Okay, how do we all of a sudden become "Okay, how do we all of a sudden become like so free here?" Because it's just like so free here?" Because it's just like so free here?" Because it's just not been approached that way at all in not been approached that way at all in not been approached that way at all in the church. And we have the church. And we have the church. And we have And we've had no one we can process this And we've had no one we can process this And we've had no one we can process this with that are mature, godly, loving with that are mature, godly, loving with that are mature, godly, loving adults that don't shame or condemn us. adults that don't shame or condemn us. adults that don't shame or condemn us. And I think Was that your background, And I think Was that your background, And I think Was that your background, purity culture?

purity culture? purity culture? Well, it was Yes, it was abstinence but Well, it was Yes, it was abstinence but Well, it was Yes, it was abstinence but never why. And it was definitely all never why. And it was definitely all never why. And it was definitely all about like the outside of the cup about like the outside of the cup about like the outside of the cup looking clean. So, you had a lot of looking clean. So, you had a lot of looking clean. So, you had a lot of technical virgins, which what in the technical virgins, which what in the technical virgins, which what in the world does that even mean? Um and it was world does that even mean? Um and it was world does that even mean? Um and it was all about the physical act itself and all about the physical act itself and all about the physical act itself and less about the heart posture of like, less about the heart posture of like, less about the heart posture of like, "Why? Why does God call us into purity? "Why? Why does God call us into purity? "Why? Why does God call us into purity? What does he Why does he love and What does he Why does he love and What does he Why does he love and delight in sex? Why are we so ashamed to delight in sex? Why are we so ashamed to delight in sex? Why are we so ashamed to even say the word out loud?" Um it even say the word out loud?" Um it even say the word out loud?" Um it definitely took for both of us in a very definitely took for both of us in a very definitely took for both of us in a very legalistic, fundamental, independent legalistic, fundamental, independent legalistic, fundamental, independent Baptist background to come out of that. Baptist background to come out of that. Baptist background to come out of that. And it took us And we write a lot about And it took us And we write a lot about And it took us And we write a lot about that in the book because I do think if that in the book because I do think if that in the book because I do think if we can just get talking, we can get we can just get talking, we can get we can just get talking, we can get healing. healing. healing. Um and this is a topic that's important. Um and this is a topic that's important. Um and this is a topic that's important. How long into your marriage did it take How long into your marriage did it take How long into your marriage did it take for you to really for you to really for you to really talk about the things that we're talking talk about the things that we're talking talk about the things that we're talking about right now, to even realize them about right now, to even realize them about right now, to even realize them and then start to process it? and then start to process it? and then start to process it? Yeah, it was probably 17, 18 years into Yeah, it was probably 17, 18 years into Yeah, it was probably 17, 18 years into marriage. marriage. marriage. So, it's been By that point a lot of So, it's been By that point a lot of So, it's been By that point a lot of people are divorced. Right? A lot of people are divorced. Right? A lot of people are divorced. Right? A lot of people haven't made it.

people haven't made it. people haven't made it. Yeah. Well, cuz by then I think it was Yeah. Well, cuz by then I think it was Yeah. Well, cuz by then I think it was like year 18 or 19. I remember we were like year 18 or 19. I remember we were like year 18 or 19. I remember we were watching a show. I didn't I was like, watching a show. I didn't I was like, watching a show. I didn't I was like, "All of a sudden that got weird. I don't "All of a sudden that got weird. I don't "All of a sudden that got weird. I don't want to watch that." But then I got mad. want to watch that." But then I got mad. want to watch that." But then I got mad. And I'm like, "Why am I so mad?" And I And I'm like, "Why am I so mad?" And I And I'm like, "Why am I so mad?" And I realized I had harbored a little bit of realized I had harbored a little bit of realized I had harbored a little bit of resentment about like having to show up resentment about like having to show up resentment about like having to show up and, you know, just be more than I even and, you know, just be more than I even and, you know, just be more than I even felt whole and healed to do um because I felt whole and healed to do um because I felt whole and healed to do um because I wanted us to have connection and wanted us to have connection and wanted us to have connection and communion. But then also feeling um this communion. But then also feeling um this communion. But then also feeling um this sense of duty or obligation attached to sense of duty or obligation attached to sense of duty or obligation attached to that, which robs freedom and intimacy that, which robs freedom and intimacy that, which robs freedom and intimacy and robs joy and delight. So, but so I and robs joy and delight. So, but so I and robs joy and delight. So, but so I had to get mad first to recognize that I had to get mad first to recognize that I had to get mad first to recognize that I was resentful was resentful was resentful to then go, "What is up? Like this isn't to then go, "What is up? Like this isn't to then go, "What is up? Like this isn't good." And um good." And um good." And um and thank God we and thank God we and thank God we I think the mercy on our marriage is I think the mercy on our marriage is I think the mercy on our marriage is that we are just chronic over-sharers that we are just chronic over-sharers that we are just chronic over-sharers and we like to fight. So, we will just and we like to fight. So, we will just and we like to fight. So, we will just say the thing. We'll say the elephant in say the thing. We'll say the elephant in say the thing. We'll say the elephant in the room that we're ticked off about. the room that we're ticked off about. the room that we're ticked off about. Whereas a lot of other marriages might Whereas a lot of other marriages might Whereas a lot of other marriages might go silent and those things never really go silent and those things never really go silent and those things never really get addressed. get addressed. get addressed. I am that way. I will say it and Tony is I am that way. I will say it and Tony is I am that way. I will say it and Tony is naturally more reserved. She's changed naturally more reserved. She's changed naturally more reserved. She's changed over the time, you know, now that we're over the time, you know, now that we're over the time, you know, now that we're at a point where we can have a at a point where we can have a at a point where we can have a conversation. But thank you for sharing conversation. But thank you for sharing conversation. But thank you for sharing that, Rebecca.

that, Rebecca. that, Rebecca. Gabe, you know, there's a lot of guys Gabe, you know, there's a lot of guys Gabe, you know, there's a lot of guys who would never who would never who would never get to the point get to the point get to the point that they would say, "Oh yeah, I don't that they would say, "Oh yeah, I don't that they would say, "Oh yeah, I don't know how to do emotions. I don't know know how to do emotions. I don't know know how to do emotions. I don't know how to do intimacy. It's just like I'll how to do intimacy. It's just like I'll how to do intimacy. It's just like I'll think I'll just watch some sports, you think I'll just watch some sports, you think I'll just watch some sports, you know, go out hunting with the guys." And know, go out hunting with the guys." And know, go out hunting with the guys." And that's it. That's life, right? And then that's it. That's life, right? And then that's it. That's life, right? And then you die. you die. you die. What What's the cost of never What What's the cost of never What What's the cost of never um um um processing that and getting to the point processing that and getting to the point processing that and getting to the point where you really do realize, "Oh, I'm where you really do realize, "Oh, I'm where you really do realize, "Oh, I'm afraid of intimacy. I don't know how to afraid of intimacy. I don't know how to afraid of intimacy. I don't know how to share this." This episode is brought to share this." This episode is brought to share this." This episode is brought to you by church.tech. you by church.tech. you by church.tech. If you're not leaning into the world of If you're not leaning into the world of If you're not leaning into the world of AI and all the ways it can help your AI and all the ways it can help your AI and all the ways it can help your weekly workflow, you're missing out. So, weekly workflow, you're missing out. So, weekly workflow, you're missing out. So, let me introduce you to church.tech let me introduce you to church.tech let me introduce you to church.tech AI, the latest innovation from our AI, the latest innovation from our AI, the latest innovation from our friends at church.tech. You probably friends at church.tech. You probably friends at church.tech. You probably heard of tools like chat GPT or Claude, heard of tools like chat GPT or Claude, heard of tools like chat GPT or Claude, right? Well, imagine having that same AI right? Well, imagine having that same AI right? Well, imagine having that same AI power but designed specifically for the power but designed specifically for the power but designed specifically for the church with faith-aligned guardrails to church with faith-aligned guardrails to church with faith-aligned guardrails to keep everything rooted in Christian keep everything rooted in Christian keep everything rooted in Christian beliefs. And here's the kicker.

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years of life wanted to cultivate in us. years of life wanted to cultivate in us. And we covered up. We distract ourself. And we covered up. We distract ourself. And we covered up. We distract ourself. I call it the dopamine of distraction. I call it the dopamine of distraction. I call it the dopamine of distraction. Like we get our hits from sports. We get Like we get our hits from sports. We get Like we get our hits from sports. We get our hits from God. I mean, I've got so our hits from God. I mean, I've got so our hits from God. I mean, I've got so many hobbies. I developed so many many hobbies. I developed so many many hobbies. I developed so many hobbies to keep myself distracted. I hobbies to keep myself distracted. I hobbies to keep myself distracted. I mean, and and golf became my favorite. mean, and and golf became my favorite. mean, and and golf became my favorite. And it's not that we're not meant to And it's not that we're not meant to And it's not that we're not meant to enjoy these things. We do enjoy these enjoy these things. We do enjoy these enjoy these things. We do enjoy these things. I still love to play golf. But things. I still love to play golf. But things. I still love to play golf. But to start to recognize my obsession with to start to recognize my obsession with to start to recognize my obsession with watching football games or sports or watching football games or sports or watching football games or sports or hunting or fly fishing or all these hunting or fly fishing or all these hunting or fly fishing or all these hobbies became distractions from me hobbies became distractions from me hobbies became distractions from me going deeper into my heart and even going deeper into my heart and even going deeper into my heart and even giving the space and time to try to giving the space and time to try to giving the space and time to try to understand my story. Cuz it's it's hard. understand my story. Cuz it's it's hard. understand my story. Cuz it's it's hard. No none of us wants to go back to that No none of us wants to go back to that No none of us wants to go back to that story. Like we've done a good job I'd story. Like we've done a good job I'd story. Like we've done a good job I'd done a great job of shutting it all off done a great job of shutting it all off done a great job of shutting it all off and going, "This isn't impacting me. and going, "This isn't impacting me. and going, "This isn't impacting me. Like I'm moving forward. Like I've shut Like I'm moving forward. Like I've shut Like I'm moving forward. Like I've shut this down. Why would I talk to a this down. Why would I talk to a this down. Why would I talk to a counselor about this? Why would we counselor about this? Why would we counselor about this? Why would we dredge this stuff up?" Because it's only dredge this stuff up?" Because it's only dredge this stuff up?" Because it's only negative. It makes me feel negative. I negative. It makes me feel negative. I negative. It makes me feel negative. I want to be positive. And that's really want to be positive. And that's really want to be positive. And that's really how I entered our marriage. Like I'm a how I entered our marriage. Like I'm a how I entered our marriage. Like I'm a positive person. Like we don't need to positive person. Like we don't need to positive person. Like we don't need to talk about this stuff. This stuff brings talk about this stuff. This stuff brings talk about this stuff. This stuff brings me down. But what I've learned is me down. But what I've learned is me down. But what I've learned is by being willing to go there, just to by being willing to go there, just to by being willing to go there, just to start to understand that God gives us start to understand that God gives us start to understand that God gives us all these feelings as a gift. That like all these feelings as a gift. That like all these feelings as a gift. That like these hard feelings aren't really meant these hard feelings aren't really meant these hard feelings aren't really meant to be punishments to us. It doesn't mean to be punishments to us. It doesn't mean to be punishments to us. It doesn't mean we're doing something wrong. It's we're doing something wrong. It's we're doing something wrong. It's actually a gift for us to feel sadness, actually a gift for us to feel sadness, actually a gift for us to feel sadness, to feel grief, you know, to feel fear, to feel grief, you know, to feel fear, to feel grief, you know, to feel fear, to feel to feel these these anxious to feel to feel these these anxious to feel to feel these these anxious feelings sometimes because it leads us feelings sometimes because it leads us feelings sometimes because it leads us towards relationship. And that's what I towards relationship. And that's what I towards relationship. And that's what I started to learn is started to learn is started to learn is how to how to how to Say them out loud, name them. That meant

Say them out loud, name them. That meant Say them out loud, name them. That meant saying some hard things to Rebecca that saying some hard things to Rebecca that saying some hard things to Rebecca that she didn't want to hear either. And and she didn't want to hear either. And and she didn't want to hear either. And and and yet it forced some conversations in and yet it forced some conversations in and yet it forced some conversations in a Like things You don't have to get too a Like things You don't have to get too a Like things You don't have to get too specific. Like anger, things you specific. Like anger, things you specific. Like anger, things you resented her for or didn't like or resented her for or didn't like or resented her for or didn't like or Yeah, resentments. I mean, we had to go Yeah, resentments. I mean, we had to go Yeah, resentments. I mean, we had to go through great moments of just through great moments of just through great moments of just forgiveness and repentance with one forgiveness and repentance with one forgiveness and repentance with one another for things that had happened 15 another for things that had happened 15 another for things that had happened 15 years before that I hadn't realized how years before that I hadn't realized how years before that I hadn't realized how much it had hurt her. Um and then I had much it had hurt her. Um and then I had much it had hurt her. Um and then I had to come back and own it. And then I had to come back and own it. And then I had to come back and own it. And then I had to apologize. And then I had to say, "I to apologize. And then I had to say, "I to apologize. And then I had to say, "I want to do better but I'm going to need want to do better but I'm going to need want to do better but I'm going to need your help. Like will you just help me? your help. Like will you just help me? your help. Like will you just help me? The next time like I say something like The next time like I say something like The next time like I say something like this or you see me getting triggered or this or you see me getting triggered or this or you see me getting triggered or you see me starting to go down this you see me starting to go down this you see me starting to go down this little rabbit hole that's you know is little rabbit hole that's you know is little rabbit hole that's you know is unhealthy for me. Like I'm giving you unhealthy for me. Like I'm giving you unhealthy for me. Like I'm giving you permission to just help me pause." And I permission to just help me pause." And I permission to just help me pause." And I didn't mean I wanted to hear the pause didn't mean I wanted to hear the pause didn't mean I wanted to hear the pause or I didn't want to hear it from her at or I didn't want to hear it from her at or I didn't want to hear it from her at the moment. But that's the years of the moment. But that's the years of the moment. But that's the years of maturing, I think, in relationship is as maturing, I think, in relationship is as maturing, I think, in relationship is as you start to get to know one an- one you start to get to know one an- one you start to get to know one an- one another so well, another so well, another so well, you can help that person become the you can help that person become the you can help that person become the better version of of who you know they better version of of who you know they better version of of who you know they can be and who they want to be and can be and who they want to be and can be and who they want to be and they've told you they want to be. But they've told you they want to be. But they've told you they want to be. But they don't always know how cuz they're they don't always know how cuz they're they don't always know how cuz they're still building those connections.

still building those connections. still building those connections. And it's not just for the men. Let's And it's not just for the men. Let's And it's not just for the men. Let's just be honest. I mean, I did things just be honest. I mean, I did things just be honest. I mean, I did things that hurt him a lot. And I think when he that hurt him a lot. And I think when he that hurt him a lot. And I think when he found language to go There was a season found language to go There was a season found language to go There was a season when I started writing and teaching and when I started writing and teaching and when I started writing and teaching and traveling that I was on social all the traveling that I was on social all the traveling that I was on social all the time and I was recording everything and time and I was recording everything and time and I was recording everything and like he's like, "I hear more about you like he's like, "I hear more about you like he's like, "I hear more about you personally on Instagram than I do from personally on Instagram than I do from personally on Instagram than I do from you at home." I mean, there's a hard you at home." I mean, there's a hard you at home." I mean, there's a hard truths that were coming both directions. truths that were coming both directions. truths that were coming both directions. I just There was a lot of repentance I just There was a lot of repentance I just There was a lot of repentance going both ways. Um marriages don't go going both ways. Um marriages don't go going both ways. Um marriages don't go sideways just because of one party. I sideways just because of one party. I sideways just because of one party. I think it definitely there's this think it definitely there's this think it definitely there's this we marry our emotional equivalent. we marry our emotional equivalent. we marry our emotional equivalent. And so why And so why And so why cuz I've heard that and so basically is cuz I've heard that and so basically is cuz I've heard that and so basically is that like a level of emotional that like a level of emotional that like a level of emotional intelligence? You kind of marry someone intelligence? You kind of marry someone intelligence? You kind of marry someone around your same around your same around your same our one counselor, we've had a lot of our one counselor, we've had a lot of our one counselor, we've had a lot of counselors, but one counselor said, counselors, but one counselor said, counselors, but one counselor said, "Y'all cute. You are two emotional "Y'all cute. You are two emotional "Y'all cute. You are two emotional orphans that found each other and fell orphans that found each other and fell orphans that found each other and fell in love." in love." in love." Wow. Wow. Wow. But what that means, it doesn't mean But what that means, it doesn't mean But what that means, it doesn't mean that we didn't have great parents that that we didn't have great parents that that we didn't have great parents that meant well, that gave everything they meant well, that gave everything they meant well, that gave everything they had. So, I want to honor them, and we had. So, I want to honor them, and we had. So, I want to honor them, and we do. We dedicate the book to the the four do. We dedicate the book to the the four do. We dedicate the book to the the four of them. Both married over 50 years.

of them. Both married over 50 years. of them. Both married over 50 years. Um but we do bring origin stuff into a Um but we do bring origin stuff into a Um but we do bring origin stuff into a relationship. Two different people and relationship. Two different people and relationship. Two different people and two ways of functioning and operating two ways of functioning and operating two ways of functioning and operating and two codependent like versions of and two codependent like versions of and two codependent like versions of dancing, you know, that we saw in our dancing, you know, that we saw in our dancing, you know, that we saw in our parents. parents. parents. And um our both of our parents were born And um our both of our parents were born And um our both of our parents were born in the silent generation. You know, like in the silent generation. You know, like in the silent generation. You know, like their parents were, you know, products their parents were, you know, products their parents were, you know, products of war and vict- you know, like it was of war and vict- you know, like it was of war and vict- you know, like it was like the Great Depression. It was awful. like the Great Depression. It was awful. like the Great Depression. It was awful. So, of course, they weren't talking So, of course, they weren't talking So, of course, they weren't talking about like, "Let's talk about our about like, "Let's talk about our about like, "Let's talk about our feelings." It was more about like, feelings." It was more about like, feelings." It was more about like, "What's survival? What do we What food "What's survival? What do we What food "What's survival? What do we What food are we putting on the table? How are we are we putting on the table? How are we are we putting on the table? How are we getting through this? How How do we have getting through this? How How do we have getting through this? How How do we have heat?" Um so, things like that were very heat?" Um so, things like that were very heat?" Um so, things like that were very different, but I think for us different, but I think for us different, but I think for us because I might have been more verbal because I might have been more verbal because I might have been more verbal with my feelings, it didn't mean that I with my feelings, it didn't mean that I with my feelings, it didn't mean that I was more healthy. I just think I got was more healthy. I just think I got was more healthy. I just think I got more aggressive with my tone and my more aggressive with my tone and my more aggressive with my tone and my tongue, you know, I was more cutting, tongue, you know, I was more cutting, tongue, you know, I was more cutting, um as you can tell. Like, God gave me a um as you can tell. Like, God gave me a um as you can tell. Like, God gave me a gift of communication, and that can be gift of communication, and that can be gift of communication, and that can be used for good or for harm. And um so, I used for good or for harm. And um so, I used for good or for harm. And um so, I would sometimes like run like Yeah, I'd would sometimes like run like Yeah, I'd would sometimes like run like Yeah, I'd be overwhelmed cuz she she had such be overwhelmed cuz she she had such be overwhelmed cuz she she had such mastery of what she was feeling, what mastery of what she was feeling, what mastery of what she was feeling, what was happening in the moment. It was way was happening in the moment. It was way was happening in the moment. It was way deeper than I was able to think through, deeper than I was able to think through, deeper than I was able to think through, and this is years into our marriage as and this is years into our marriage as and this is years into our marriage as she had grown in her own emotional she had grown in her own emotional she had grown in her own emotional health journey.

health journey. health journey. Um but I felt overwhelmed, you know, Um but I felt overwhelmed, you know, Um but I felt overwhelmed, you know, intimidated. Like, I don't know what to intimidated. Like, I don't know what to intimidated. Like, I don't know what to say. Like, you're right. It sounds like say. Like, you're right. It sounds like say. Like, you're right. It sounds like you're right. I don't have a good you're right. I don't have a good you're right. I don't have a good comeback. It doesn't feel good. Yeah. comeback. It doesn't feel good. Yeah. comeback. It doesn't feel good. Yeah. And he And he I had built a case that he And he And he I had built a case that he And he And he I had built a case that he couldn't win, you know, and I think that couldn't win, you know, and I think that couldn't win, you know, and I think that happens for a lot of women. happens for a lot of women. happens for a lot of women. Like, we've asked men like, "What do you Like, we've asked men like, "What do you Like, we've asked men like, "What do you What do you long for most?" And we We What do you long for most?" And we We What do you long for most?" And we We did this more recently, and um you could did this more recently, and um you could did this more recently, and um you could speak to this, too, but most of the men speak to this, too, but most of the men speak to this, too, but most of the men we just We just really want our wives to we just We just really want our wives to we just We just really want our wives to be happy. be happy. be happy. We Like, what we long for more than We Like, what we long for more than We Like, what we long for more than anything is for her to be happy and not anything is for her to be happy and not anything is for her to be happy and not complaining all the time. Uh you know, complaining all the time. Uh you know, complaining all the time. Uh you know, and so that seems so simple and basic, and so that seems so simple and basic, and so that seems so simple and basic, but we are Women are just like razor but we are Women are just like razor but we are Women are just like razor sharp on like pointing out your sharp on like pointing out your sharp on like pointing out your mistakes. mistakes. mistakes. Yeah. Boy, there's a lot of directions I could Boy, there's a lot of directions I could go. Anything else on sex? Do you have go. Anything else on sex? Do you have go. Anything else on sex? Do you have any recommendations, any prescriptions any recommendations, any prescriptions any recommendations, any prescriptions for couples, any questions they should for couples, any questions they should for couples, any questions they should ask? Yeah, I think there you know, ask? Yeah, I think there you know, ask? Yeah, I think there you know, there's kind of this other movement there's kind of this other movement there's kind of this other movement happening now. There's a lot of sexless happening now. There's a lot of sexless happening now. There's a lot of sexless marriages, and I think people don't know marriages, and I think people don't know marriages, and I think people don't know where to go with that. where to go with that. where to go with that. Scott Galloway talks about raising a Scott Galloway talks about raising a Scott Galloway talks about raising a sexless generation, that Gen Z is sexless generation, that Gen Z is sexless generation, that Gen Z is becoming asexual. Yeah.

becoming asexual. Yeah. becoming asexual. Yeah. So, we believe sex is incredible, and we So, we believe sex is incredible, and we So, we believe sex is incredible, and we have incredible sex. And And I think have incredible sex. And And I think have incredible sex. And And I think God's given us all this gift in our God's given us all this gift in our God's given us all this gift in our marriage to explore one another and our marriage to explore one another and our marriage to explore one another and our bodies and enjoy it, and it's beautiful. bodies and enjoy it, and it's beautiful. bodies and enjoy it, and it's beautiful. And I think for men there is this deeper And I think for men there is this deeper And I think for men there is this deeper There is an emotional connection that There is an emotional connection that There is an emotional connection that happens during sexual intimacy happens during sexual intimacy happens during sexual intimacy that's very strong for men that that I'm that's very strong for men that that I'm that's very strong for men that that I'm not saying it's not there for women, but not saying it's not there for women, but not saying it's not there for women, but I think sometimes that's why I was I think sometimes that's why I was I think sometimes that's why I was looking at sex as my emotional and and looking at sex as my emotional and and looking at sex as my emotional and and like it was enough. Then I realized it like it was enough. Then I realized it like it was enough. Then I realized it wasn't enough, but there is something wasn't enough, but there is something wasn't enough, but there is something there for men. But I think for women, uh there for men. But I think for women, uh there for men. But I think for women, uh what I've what I've learned is what I've what I've learned is what I've what I've learned is you know, sex is obviously something you know, sex is obviously something you know, sex is obviously something that's happening all day long because that's happening all day long because that's happening all day long because it's not orgasm and just having the act it's not orgasm and just having the act it's not orgasm and just having the act of sex. It's actually foreplay, it's of sex. It's actually foreplay, it's of sex. It's actually foreplay, it's conversation, it's being attentive. conversation, it's being attentive. conversation, it's being attentive. Yeah, like like showing attention to Yeah, like like showing attention to Yeah, like like showing attention to your spouse, especially to my wife, all your spouse, especially to my wife, all your spouse, especially to my wife, all the time, not just because I'm the time, not just because I'm the time, not just because I'm transacting for sex or doing these transacting for sex or doing these transacting for sex or doing these things cuz I want to have sex later. things cuz I want to have sex later. things cuz I want to have sex later. We have to develop rhythms that feel We have to develop rhythms that feel We have to develop rhythms that feel natural, I think for men, that that help natural, I think for men, that that help natural, I think for men, that that help our wives feel that kind of love and our wives feel that kind of love and our wives feel that kind of love and cherished care.

cherished care. cherished care. Um and that creates an environment where Um and that creates an environment where Um and that creates an environment where sex is sex is sex is maybe going to happen, maybe not. It's maybe going to happen, maybe not. It's maybe going to happen, maybe not. It's not going to ruin your night if it not going to ruin your night if it not going to ruin your night if it doesn't, but you but you're you've doesn't, but you but you're you've doesn't, but you but you're you've created an environment where if it created an environment where if it created an environment where if it naturally is going to happen, then naturally is going to happen, then naturally is going to happen, then you're ready for it, and it's been a you're ready for it, and it's been a you're ready for it, and it's been a great day, and you're you're in a good great day, and you're you're in a good great day, and you're you're in a good place for it. I would counsel young, place for it. I would counsel young, place for it. I would counsel young, mid, however long you've been married, mid, however long you've been married, mid, however long you've been married, it doesn't even matter. If there's it doesn't even matter. If there's it doesn't even matter. If there's anything that's happened in your anything that's happened in your anything that's happened in your fantasies, in your past, before you met fantasies, in your past, before you met fantasies, in your past, before you met each other, after you met each other, each other, after you met each other, each other, after you met each other, anything you've observed, saw online, anything you've observed, saw online, anything you've observed, saw online, engaged, just tell each other. engaged, just tell each other. engaged, just tell each other. Just tell each other. Just tell each other. Just tell each other. those conversations? those conversations? those conversations? absolutely. Withhold nothing, especially absolutely. Withhold nothing, especially absolutely. Withhold nothing, especially around that topic, cuz the enemy dwells around that topic, cuz the enemy dwells around that topic, cuz the enemy dwells in the secret, and all he wants to do is in the secret, and all he wants to do is in the secret, and all he wants to do is shame makes you hide and run, and you shame makes you hide and run, and you shame makes you hide and run, and you cannot actually have the communion that cannot actually have the communion that cannot actually have the communion that God calls marriage to be if there's God calls marriage to be if there's God calls marriage to be if there's anything lurking. You can't. I remember anything lurking. You can't. I remember anything lurking. You can't. I remember waking up one time from a speaking waking up one time from a speaking waking up one time from a speaking event, and I had anxiety, and I called event, and I had anxiety, and I called event, and I had anxiety, and I called him at 3:00 in the morning, and I go, "I him at 3:00 in the morning, and I go, "I him at 3:00 in the morning, and I go, "I feel anxiety, and I feel like the Lord feel anxiety, and I feel like the Lord feel anxiety, and I feel like the Lord is asking me to like just confess is asking me to like just confess is asking me to like just confess something to you."

something to you." something to you." And it really was just still like there And it really was just still like there And it really was just still like there are lingering things that sometimes will are lingering things that sometimes will are lingering things that sometimes will make a mind wander during sex, whether make a mind wander during sex, whether make a mind wander during sex, whether it's you or me or anyone. And if that if it's you or me or anyone. And if that if it's you or me or anyone. And if that if that even surfaces for a second, I want that even surfaces for a second, I want that even surfaces for a second, I want to repent. I want to tell you. I want to to repent. I want to tell you. I want to to repent. I want to tell you. I want to go like, "I don't want to have anything go like, "I don't want to have anything go like, "I don't want to have anything on my mind outside of you." Um the more on my mind outside of you." Um the more on my mind outside of you." Um the more honest we can just be about this stuff honest we can just be about this stuff honest we can just be about this stuff and stop getting weird, and stop getting weird, and stop getting weird, uh I think the healthier that we're uh I think the healthier that we're uh I think the healthier that we're going to have I want Christians to be going to have I want Christians to be going to have I want Christians to be having the best sex, not the other way having the best sex, not the other way having the best sex, not the other way around. Like, why is the world having, around. Like, why is the world having, around. Like, why is the world having, well, transactional sex, but for them at well, transactional sex, but for them at well, transactional sex, but for them at least it's free cuz they don't they least it's free cuz they don't they least it's free cuz they don't they don't wallow in shame. If Christians don't wallow in shame. If Christians don't wallow in shame. If Christians could just get honest, the truth sets could just get honest, the truth sets could just get honest, the truth sets you free. And ever since we've just said you free. And ever since we've just said you free. And ever since we've just said like, "Withhold nothing." Like, "If I'm like, "Withhold nothing." Like, "If I'm like, "Withhold nothing." Like, "If I'm gone for a while and you you feel like gone for a while and you you feel like gone for a while and you you feel like you you miss me, and you're like, just you you miss me, and you're like, just you you miss me, and you're like, just call me, you know, like let's just make call me, you know, like let's just make call me, you know, like let's just make sure we withhold nothing from one sure we withhold nothing from one sure we withhold nothing from one another in any area of life, but another in any area of life, but another in any area of life, but especially that one if we want it to be especially that one if we want it to be especially that one if we want it to be one that's pure and true and lovely and one that's pure and true and lovely and one that's pure and true and lovely and good." And since then, good." And since then, good." And since then, um it's been the better sex.

um it's been the better sex. um it's been the better sex. It has because we just we know It has because we just we know It has because we just we know everything about each other, and there everything about each other, and there everything about each other, and there are a lot of marriages that don't feel are a lot of marriages that don't feel are a lot of marriages that don't feel the freedom for that to happen. So, I the freedom for that to happen. So, I the freedom for that to happen. So, I know that's A to Z quickly. We didn't know that's A to Z quickly. We didn't know that's A to Z quickly. We didn't get there overnight. Took a couple get there overnight. Took a couple get there overnight. Took a couple decades. But once you start and and and decades. But once you start and and and decades. But once you start and and and and I would counsel if someone does come and I would counsel if someone does come and I would counsel if someone does come to you after this podcast and starts to you after this podcast and starts to you after this podcast and starts just telling you everything, I would just telling you everything, I would just telling you everything, I would counsel you to just hold space and be counsel you to just hold space and be counsel you to just hold space and be grateful that they were willing. Do not grateful that they were willing. Do not grateful that they were willing. Do not condemn. Do not twist and manipulate condemn. Do not twist and manipulate condemn. Do not twist and manipulate that to use it as a power play. Know that to use it as a power play. Know that to use it as a power play. Know that we are all broken and desperate that we are all broken and desperate that we are all broken and desperate need of a savior, and this is actually a need of a savior, and this is actually a need of a savior, and this is actually a like an olive branch like an olive branch like an olive branch to continue to heal and repair something to continue to heal and repair something to continue to heal and repair something that God might really bless in an that God might really bless in an that God might really bless in an abundant way. Yeah, that confession abundant way. Yeah, that confession abundant way. Yeah, that confession piece, I think in our marriage, on every piece, I think in our marriage, on every piece, I think in our marriage, on every front, has been huge, and it's been the front, has been huge, and it's been the front, has been huge, and it's been the key to healing. It's just the ability key to healing. It's just the ability key to healing. It's just the ability to come to one another without shame and to come to one another without shame and to come to one another without shame and be able to say, you know, anything we've be able to say, you know, anything we've be able to say, you know, anything we've done, anything we felt, any old done, anything we felt, any old done, anything we felt, any old resentment that we've held on to that resentment that we've held on to that resentment that we've held on to that could turn into contempt, because, you could turn into contempt, because, you could turn into contempt, because, you know, contempt is what they would know, contempt is what they would know, contempt is what they would describe as the marriage killer. Like, describe as the marriage killer. Like, describe as the marriage killer. Like, if you let these unforgiven resentments if you let these unforgiven resentments if you let these unforgiven resentments build up, and you make the case against build up, and you make the case against build up, and you make the case against your spouse, and you believe actually your spouse, and you believe actually your spouse, and you believe actually you're better than them, and the reason you're better than them, and the reason you're better than them, and the reason there's any trouble in your marriage is there's any trouble in your marriage is there's any trouble in your marriage is it really is them. And that's a that's a it really is them. And that's a that's a it really is them. And that's a that's a lie the enemy wants each of us to agree lie the enemy wants each of us to agree lie the enemy wants each of us to agree with, and and many of us do quickly.

with, and and many of us do quickly. with, and and many of us do quickly. But that contempt, when you start to But that contempt, when you start to But that contempt, when you start to believe you're better than the other believe you're better than the other believe you're better than the other person, person, person, that leads to the marriage ending. And that leads to the marriage ending. And that leads to the marriage ending. And so, I'd say to anybody listening that's so, I'd say to anybody listening that's so, I'd say to anybody listening that's going, "Hey, I do feel that for my going, "Hey, I do feel that for my going, "Hey, I do feel that for my spouse. Like, I I feel like I'm better spouse. Like, I I feel like I'm better spouse. Like, I I feel like I'm better than them." Then it's a warning to you than them." Then it's a warning to you than them." Then it's a warning to you to stop, to pause, to go to God, to say, to stop, to pause, to go to God, to say, to stop, to pause, to go to God, to say, "God, help me see where this built from. "God, help me see where this built from. "God, help me see where this built from. What's the roots of it? What's the What's the roots of it? What's the What's the roots of it? What's the foundation of it? How do I get healing foundation of it? How do I get healing foundation of it? How do I get healing myself in that, and how do we process myself in that, and how do we process myself in that, and how do we process that together so that we can heal so that together so that we can heal so that together so that we can heal so this doesn't go down the path where we this doesn't go down the path where we this doesn't go down the path where we end in divorce?" The last thing I'll end in divorce?" The last thing I'll end in divorce?" The last thing I'll say, because this is also a part of the say, because this is also a part of the say, because this is also a part of the telling like nothing withheld from one telling like nothing withheld from one telling like nothing withheld from one another is if you notice like someone of another is if you notice like someone of another is if you notice like someone of the opposite sex is like the opposite sex is like the opposite sex is like flattering you, giving you extra flattering you, giving you extra flattering you, giving you extra attention, you're not reciprocating, but attention, you're not reciprocating, but attention, you're not reciprocating, but you're noticing it, you're observing it, you're noticing it, you're observing it, you're noticing it, you're observing it, you do feel flattered by it, you there's you do feel flattered by it, you there's you do feel flattered by it, you there's like lingering this, that, or the other. like lingering this, that, or the other. like lingering this, that, or the other. So, it's like early on, right? I would So, it's like early on, right? I would So, it's like early on, right? I would just just go ahead and nip that in the just just go ahead and nip that in the just just go ahead and nip that in the bud with your with your spouse and go, bud with your with your spouse and go, bud with your with your spouse and go, "Hey, I I notice like at the gym, "Hey, I I notice like at the gym, "Hey, I I notice like at the gym, whoever, just kind of like makes whoever, just kind of like makes whoever, just kind of like makes conversation." conversation." conversation." Um or you might say like, "I notice this Um or you might say like, "I notice this Um or you might say like, "I notice this or that." And And we just we're just way or that." And And we just we're just way or that." And And we just we're just way out ahead of it. Um we've just put in out ahead of it. Um we've just put in out ahead of it. Um we've just put in too many years to just like act like too many years to just like act like too many years to just like act like that's inconsequential.

that's inconsequential. that's inconsequential. Um and then we're not even saying that Um and then we're not even saying that Um and then we're not even saying that that person intended it. If we noticed that person intended it. If we noticed that person intended it. If we noticed it and we felt flattery from it, then we it and we felt flattery from it, then we it and we felt flattery from it, then we need to just Could be 100% on you. Yeah. need to just Could be 100% on you. Yeah. need to just Could be 100% on you. Yeah. Could be on us. Yeah. Is there anything Could be on us. Yeah. Is there anything Could be on us. Yeah. Is there anything you should not tell your spouse? Not you should not tell your spouse? Not you should not tell your spouse? Not that I can think of. Yeah. I I think we that I can think of. Yeah. I I think we that I can think of. Yeah. I I think we have found the more we share everything, have found the more we share everything, have found the more we share everything, even if it's something you think, "Well, even if it's something you think, "Well, even if it's something you think, "Well, they're going to be mad that I felt that they're going to be mad that I felt that they're going to be mad that I felt that or that or that or that Or this is a divorce. Yeah. Yeah. We Or this is a divorce. Yeah. Yeah. We Or this is a divorce. Yeah. Yeah. We have found um have found um have found um that that's where the healing begins, that that's where the healing begins, that that's where the healing begins, and it's just not worth it. It's never and it's just not worth it. It's never and it's just not worth it. It's never been worth it for us to withhold. Now, I been worth it for us to withhold. Now, I been worth it for us to withhold. Now, I could credit Rebecca for that. I mean, could credit Rebecca for that. I mean, could credit Rebecca for that. I mean, she's created a space where she's created a space where she's created a space where we talk about this a lot, and therefore, we talk about this a lot, and therefore, we talk about this a lot, and therefore, I feel freedom to tell her something I feel freedom to tell her something I feel freedom to tell her something that maybe for some other person that's that maybe for some other person that's that maybe for some other person that's not in that same emotional space, not in that same emotional space, not in that same emotional space, they use it as cause for like, "Oh, I'm they use it as cause for like, "Oh, I'm they use it as cause for like, "Oh, I'm out of here." You know, if you had a out of here." You know, if you had a out of here." You know, if you had a fantasy about fantasy about fantasy about you do that? How do you create space? I you do that? How do you create space? I you do that? How do you create space? I think it's gradual, right? You build think it's gradual, right? You build think it's gradual, right? You build trust over time, and then And we've done trust over time, and then And we've done trust over time, and then And we've done this with our kids. All around the same this with our kids. All around the same this with our kids. All around the same time that we started to do this with our time that we started to do this with our time that we started to do this with our kids, talking about sex, cuz they had a kids, talking about sex, cuz they had a kids, talking about sex, cuz they had a lot of questions. Of course, they can go lot of questions. Of course, they can go lot of questions. Of course, they can go to Twitter, YouTube, you know, TikTok.

to Twitter, YouTube, you know, TikTok. to Twitter, YouTube, you know, TikTok. But we're like, "No, we we want to just But we're like, "No, we we want to just But we're like, "No, we we want to just know We're going to create a culture in know We're going to create a culture in know We're going to create a culture in our home where no topic is off-limits." our home where no topic is off-limits." our home where no topic is off-limits." So, if you're exposed to something, our So, if you're exposed to something, our So, if you're exposed to something, our friend is doing something, you hear of a friend is doing something, you hear of a friend is doing something, you hear of a friend's friend's doing something. And friend's friend's doing something. And friend's friend's doing something. And so, I found like for a season when the so, I found like for a season when the so, I found like for a season when the kids were in high school, we were kids were in high school, we were kids were in high school, we were talking about sex all the time, and they talking about sex all the time, and they talking about sex all the time, and they were like, "Ew, gross, Mom." But it was were like, "Ew, gross, Mom." But it was were like, "Ew, gross, Mom." But it was almost like, "I'll just say just enough almost like, "I'll just say just enough almost like, "I'll just say just enough so that you're not curious to go so that you're not curious to go so that you're not curious to go elsewhere." And the freedom of that elsewhere." And the freedom of that elsewhere." And the freedom of that became freedom of them just asking us, became freedom of them just asking us, became freedom of them just asking us, and we're like, "We're not giving you and we're like, "We're not giving you and we're like, "We're not giving you details, obviously, cuz that's details, obviously, cuz that's details, obviously, cuz that's inappropriate, but we're not going to inappropriate, but we're not going to inappropriate, but we're not going to act weird about something that God made act weird about something that God made act weird about something that God made for the flourishing of humanity. So, I for the flourishing of humanity. So, I for the flourishing of humanity. So, I think it just to put like the pin in the think it just to put like the pin in the think it just to put like the pin in the balloon that's like stop the weird balloon that's like stop the weird balloon that's like stop the weird stigma that this is dirty, but more that stigma that this is dirty, but more that stigma that this is dirty, but more that like under God's keeping and care with like under God's keeping and care with like under God's keeping and care with honesty and truth and vulnerability it's honesty and truth and vulnerability it's honesty and truth and vulnerability it's actually the most sacred beautiful actually the most sacred beautiful actually the most sacred beautiful thing. And so, it just made it a lot thing. And so, it just made it a lot thing. And so, it just made it a lot easier that way. I think you mentioned a easier that way. I think you mentioned a easier that way. I think you mentioned a couple of times if you have a fantasy couple of times if you have a fantasy couple of times if you have a fantasy about I want you to finish that about I want you to finish that about I want you to finish that sentence. sentence. sentence. Yeah, well I think cuz Rebecca Yeah, well I think cuz Rebecca Yeah, well I think cuz Rebecca referenced that earlier, but that even a referenced that earlier, but that even a referenced that earlier, but that even a husband that has a fantasy about another husband that has a fantasy about another husband that has a fantasy about another woman at some point even if they're woman at some point even if they're woman at some point even if they're having sex and they're fantasizing while having sex and they're fantasizing while having sex and they're fantasizing while having sex, that's something to confess.

having sex, that's something to confess. having sex, that's something to confess. Like we don't with I don't again, a Like we don't with I don't again, a Like we don't with I don't again, a woman could react horribly to that. woman could react horribly to that. woman could react horribly to that. But, I think we have found in our But, I think we have found in our But, I think we have found in our relationship to confess even at that relationship to confess even at that relationship to confess even at that level gives us a freedom and gives us a level gives us a freedom and gives us a level gives us a freedom and gives us a freedom from doing that. Well, it just freedom from doing that. Well, it just freedom from doing that. Well, it just goes back to the words of Jesus. goes back to the words of Jesus. goes back to the words of Jesus. Even if you think it in your heart. Even if you think it in your heart. Even if you think it in your heart. Right. Right. Right. Even if you look at a woman and think it Even if you look at a woman and think it Even if you look at a woman and think it in your heart, that's adultery. Mhm. So, in your heart, that's adultery. Mhm. So, in your heart, that's adultery. Mhm. So, do we believe that or not? Because do we believe that or not? Because do we believe that or not? Because I mean, it's kind of like I there are I mean, it's kind of like I there are I mean, it's kind of like I there are parts of the Bible that were like uh parts of the Bible that were like uh parts of the Bible that were like uh and yet if you really play them out, it and yet if you really play them out, it and yet if you really play them out, it all he's after is the heart. He's after all he's after is the heart. He's after all he's after is the heart. He's after the purity of heart. We could actually the purity of heart. We could actually the purity of heart. We could actually the outside could look real clean like the outside could look real clean like the outside could look real clean like we're maybe it's an emotional affair, or we're maybe it's an emotional affair, or we're maybe it's an emotional affair, or maybe it's just flirtation, uh maybe we maybe it's just flirtation, uh maybe we maybe it's just flirtation, uh maybe we glance at something online, but nobody glance at something online, but nobody glance at something online, but nobody knows, right? knows, right? knows, right? So, the outside still looks pretty So, the outside still looks pretty So, the outside still looks pretty clean. Like we come home, we do the clean. Like we come home, we do the clean. Like we come home, we do the duty, you know, we're we're obligated to duty, you know, we're we're obligated to duty, you know, we're we're obligated to one another. We're going to stay one another. We're going to stay one another. We're going to stay together come hell or high water. We together come hell or high water. We together come hell or high water. We don't really like each other. Um or is don't really like each other. Um or is don't really like each other. Um or is if the heart is pure. if the heart is pure. if the heart is pure. Right? If the our heart is like search Right? If the our heart is like search Right? If the our heart is like search me oh God know my heart. Test me know my me oh God know my heart. Test me know my me oh God know my heart. Test me know my anxious thoughts in Psalm 139. See if anxious thoughts in Psalm 139. See if anxious thoughts in Psalm 139. See if there's anything wicked in me.

there's anything wicked in me. there's anything wicked in me. Call it wicked and lead me in the way of Call it wicked and lead me in the way of Call it wicked and lead me in the way of everlasting. And that was David, God's everlasting. And that was David, God's everlasting. And that was David, God's bestie. So, if he's capable of that and bestie. So, if he's capable of that and bestie. So, if he's capable of that and we know his story, then why would we act we know his story, then why would we act we know his story, then why would we act superior to that? superior to that? superior to that? You know? You know? You know? So, So, So, we've talked about fighting about we've talked about fighting about we've talked about fighting about everything. We've talked about being everything. We've talked about being everything. We've talked about being totally transparent and honest in sex. totally transparent and honest in sex. totally transparent and honest in sex. That would end That would end That would end most marriages. most marriages. most marriages. I'm just going to say that. I'm just going to say that. I'm just going to say that. If you look at, you know, I guess I If you look at, you know, I guess I If you look at, you know, I guess I probably have a bit of an inside scoop probably have a bit of an inside scoop probably have a bit of an inside scoop because my wife practice family law, because my wife practice family law, because my wife practice family law, etc. But, you hear these stories. etc. But, you hear these stories. etc. But, you hear these stories. There are people getting divorced right There are people getting divorced right There are people getting divorced right now as we sit down and have this now as we sit down and have this now as we sit down and have this conversation conversation conversation for lesser grounds or exactly the same for lesser grounds or exactly the same for lesser grounds or exactly the same thing. So, what I want to know is thing. So, what I want to know is thing. So, what I want to know is you're still together and deeply in you're still together and deeply in you're still together and deeply in love. Mhm. More than ever. More than love. Mhm. More than ever. More than love. Mhm. More than ever. More than ever. Yes. Yeah. And that is possible. ever. Yes. Yeah. And that is possible. ever. Yes. Yeah. And that is possible. It's really hard. I feel more deeply in It's really hard. I feel more deeply in It's really hard. I feel more deeply in love with my wife after 35 years than I love with my wife after 35 years than I love with my wife after 35 years than I did did did 10 years in. 10 years in. 10 years in. How not why did you stay together? How How not why did you stay together? How How not why did you stay together? How did you stay together? Mhm.

did you stay together? Mhm. did you stay together? Mhm. Well, like you said, if someone were to Well, like you said, if someone were to Well, like you said, if someone were to confess one of those things. Like I confess one of those things. Like I confess one of those things. Like I could have said that to Gabe like I I could have said that to Gabe like I I could have said that to Gabe like I I thought of that about this or visualized thought of that about this or visualized thought of that about this or visualized visualized this person or whatever. If visualized this person or whatever. If visualized this person or whatever. If he would have been like he would have been like he would have been like I'm so insulted and offended cuz I've I'm so insulted and offended cuz I've I'm so insulted and offended cuz I've never done anything like that. Well, never done anything like that. Well, never done anything like that. Well, that wouldn't be true for starters. that wouldn't be true for starters. that wouldn't be true for starters. But, instead he was like, hey it's But, instead he was like, hey it's But, instead he was like, hey it's great. It's fine. Like I know like the great. It's fine. Like I know like the great. It's fine. Like I know like the fact that I'm like repentant coming to fact that I'm like repentant coming to fact that I'm like repentant coming to you going God convicted me of this. Like you going God convicted me of this. Like you going God convicted me of this. Like I'm I'm initiating this. Most things I'm I'm initiating this. Most things I'm I'm initiating this. Most things that happen um sexually in marriages are that happen um sexually in marriages are that happen um sexually in marriages are found out. They're caught. Um then it found out. They're caught. Um then it found out. They're caught. Um then it only happened one time usually. Um you only happened one time usually. Um you only happened one time usually. Um you know, there's always this backpedaling know, there's always this backpedaling know, there's always this backpedaling and self-defense that never repairs. Um and self-defense that never repairs. Um and self-defense that never repairs. Um it just continues like, okay fine we it just continues like, okay fine we it just continues like, okay fine we won't rock the boat cuz finances need won't rock the boat cuz finances need won't rock the boat cuz finances need need to be stable and the kids need need to be stable and the kids need need to be stable and the kids need stable. But, we're we're not about like stable. But, we're we're not about like stable. But, we're we're not about like maintaining a crippled marriage. We are maintaining a crippled marriage. We are maintaining a crippled marriage. We are about a resurrected life. about a resurrected life. about a resurrected life. And a resurrected life if we think the And a resurrected life if we think the And a resurrected life if we think the cross is beyond like whatever might come cross is beyond like whatever might come cross is beyond like whatever might come out from the secret. It's it's not it's out from the secret. It's it's not it's out from the secret. It's it's not it's for that. The cross is for us to put it for that. The cross is for us to put it for that. The cross is for us to put it all all the chips in the middle of the all all the chips in the middle of the all all the chips in the middle of the table and go, Jesus we are desperate for table and go, Jesus we are desperate for table and go, Jesus we are desperate for you. Our marriage will not survive you. Our marriage will not survive you. Our marriage will not survive without you. And it has to be mutual. If without you. And it has to be mutual. If without you. And it has to be mutual. If I were to feel that and he was like, no I were to feel that and he was like, no I were to feel that and he was like, no I'm I'm out, then that's his choice. He I'm I'm out, then that's his choice. He I'm I'm out, then that's his choice. He can decide, but the Lord still has can decide, but the Lord still has can decide, but the Lord still has coming in keeping things in the coming in keeping things in the coming in keeping things in the scriptures.

scriptures. scriptures. So, then you know, there's sometimes men So, then you know, there's sometimes men So, then you know, there's sometimes men coming around men going, what are you coming around men going, what are you coming around men going, what are you doing? Like look at you. Like none of us doing? Like look at you. Like none of us doing? Like look at you. Like none of us are perfect. When we both humble are perfect. When we both humble are perfect. When we both humble ourselves ourselves ourselves and we're both willing to go toward and we're both willing to go toward and we're both willing to go toward repair, repair, repair, then God can work with that. Yeah, and I then God can work with that. Yeah, and I then God can work with that. Yeah, and I think so how we've done it is is a deep think so how we've done it is is a deep think so how we've done it is is a deep honesty with each other that's produced honesty with each other that's produced honesty with each other that's produced a freedom that we both enjoy today that a freedom that we both enjoy today that a freedom that we both enjoy today that we didn't enjoy a decade ago. So, that's we didn't enjoy a decade ago. So, that's we didn't enjoy a decade ago. So, that's that's been a journey. And there's been that's been a journey. And there's been that's been a journey. And there's been in our own stuff, right? Our own in our own stuff, right? Our own in our own stuff, right? Our own ownership. And and then community's been ownership. And and then community's been ownership. And and then community's been a huge part of our relationship and a huge part of our relationship and a huge part of our relationship and friends that have been willing to be in friends that have been willing to be in friends that have been willing to be in our life that we could go to with these our life that we could go to with these our life that we could go to with these things. So, it would have been early in things. So, it would have been early in things. So, it would have been early in our marriage where we had other couples our marriage where we had other couples our marriage where we had other couples that were just a year or two or more in that were just a year or two or more in that were just a year or two or more in front of us that would say, hey you're front of us that would say, hey you're front of us that would say, hey you're having fights like that's normal. Every having fights like that's normal. Every having fights like that's normal. Every couple walks through these things. Like couple walks through these things. Like couple walks through these things. Like you're not you don't need to get you're not you don't need to get you're not you don't need to get divorced. It's not that you're just divorced. It's not that you're just divorced. It's not that you're just incompatible. And I think having these incompatible. And I think having these incompatible. And I think having these other voices throughout our journey like other voices throughout our journey like other voices throughout our journey like Rebecca mentioned several counselors. Rebecca mentioned several counselors. Rebecca mentioned several counselors. We've invested time in intensives where We've invested time in intensives where We've invested time in intensives where we've gone and spent three days with we've gone and spent three days with we've gone and spent three days with this one couple, two days with this this one couple, two days with this this one couple, two days with this counselor. So, so all those things have counselor. So, so all those things have counselor. So, so all those things have been part of that journey for us. It's been part of that journey for us. It's been part of that journey for us. It's been good books along the way.

been good books along the way. been good books along the way. But, we couldn't have done it just on But, we couldn't have done it just on But, we couldn't have done it just on our own. We've had to look to other our own. We've had to look to other our own. We've had to look to other guides and other people who've walked guides and other people who've walked guides and other people who've walked through some of these things to help us through some of these things to help us through some of these things to help us know that it was possible. It's having know that it was possible. It's having know that it was possible. It's having imagination that this this could happen. imagination that this this could happen. imagination that this this could happen. And I think all along we've said, we And I think all along we've said, we And I think all along we've said, we know our marriage could be better. We know our marriage could be better. We know our marriage could be better. We know there's more there. Like let's just know there's more there. Like let's just know there's more there. Like let's just keep leaning into it. I know this is keep leaning into it. I know this is keep leaning into it. I know this is hard. It's frustrating. It'd be easier hard. It's frustrating. It'd be easier hard. It's frustrating. It'd be easier to just stop and settle with where we're to just stop and settle with where we're to just stop and settle with where we're at at at and just be dissatisfied, which is where and just be dissatisfied, which is where and just be dissatisfied, which is where I think most people sit. They're just I think most people sit. They're just I think most people sit. They're just dissatisfied. dissatisfied. dissatisfied. Or or you end up being business Or or you end up being business Or or you end up being business partners, friends, roommates. partners, friends, roommates. partners, friends, roommates. Yeah, you find another way to do it and Yeah, you find another way to do it and Yeah, you find another way to do it and then you rely on other outside then you rely on other outside then you rely on other outside relationships relationships relationships or porn or any other way to try to or porn or any other way to try to or porn or any other way to try to fulfill these parts of your marriage fulfill these parts of your marriage fulfill these parts of your marriage that you're like, my wife or my husband that you're like, my wife or my husband that you're like, my wife or my husband is never going to be able to meet that is never going to be able to meet that is never going to be able to meet that for me. And I think that's the lie from for me. And I think that's the lie from for me. And I think that's the lie from the enemy. I think the enemy. I think the enemy. I think it's easy to believe it. There's a lot it's easy to believe it. There's a lot it's easy to believe it. There's a lot of reasons to believe it and yet God's of reasons to believe it and yet God's of reasons to believe it and yet God's wanting us to confront that to realize wanting us to confront that to realize wanting us to confront that to realize that this is a lie. That's not true. that this is a lie. That's not true. that this is a lie. That's not true. That's not what I have for you in That's not what I have for you in That's not what I have for you in intimacy and in marriage. And that's intimacy and in marriage. And that's intimacy and in marriage. And that's been been been key for us, but it's critical that key for us, but it's critical that key for us, but it's critical that there's been other couples.

there's been other couples. there's been other couples. What's your advice cuz you said What's your advice cuz you said What's your advice cuz you said something that came up a lot. When I something that came up a lot. When I something that came up a lot. When I pastored a church for 20 years, pastored a church for 20 years, pastored a church for 20 years, I would often talk to one of the spouses I would often talk to one of the spouses I would often talk to one of the spouses and they would say, well I'm willing, and they would say, well I'm willing, and they would say, well I'm willing, but my husband. I'm willing, but my but my husband. I'm willing, but my but my husband. I'm willing, but my wife. And people watching this right now wife. And people watching this right now wife. And people watching this right now listening to this right now might be listening to this right now might be listening to this right now might be like, well I'm there. You don't know my like, well I'm there. You don't know my like, well I'm there. You don't know my spouse. Do you have any thoughts or spouse. Do you have any thoughts or spouse. Do you have any thoughts or advice in a situation like that? advice in a situation like that? advice in a situation like that? Yes, we have a lot of those people in Yes, we have a lot of those people in Yes, we have a lot of those people in our lives right now that we love dearly our lives right now that we love dearly our lives right now that we love dearly and it's heartbreaking, right? Because and it's heartbreaking, right? Because and it's heartbreaking, right? Because it sometimes feels like one party's it sometimes feels like one party's it sometimes feels like one party's ready when the other one's not and then ready when the other one's not and then ready when the other one's not and then there's a switcheroo. there's a switcheroo. there's a switcheroo. It's like the timing never quite lines It's like the timing never quite lines It's like the timing never quite lines up. Um God's bigger than that. You know, up. Um God's bigger than that. You know, up. Um God's bigger than that. You know, obviously we are always coming around obviously we are always coming around obviously we are always coming around whoever is willing in prayer and laying whoever is willing in prayer and laying whoever is willing in prayer and laying hands and like just interceding with hands and like just interceding with hands and like just interceding with them that that Jesus would continue to them that that Jesus would continue to them that that Jesus would continue to plead on their behalf. That the Holy plead on their behalf. That the Holy plead on their behalf. That the Holy Spirit would plead on their behalf. But, Spirit would plead on their behalf. But, Spirit would plead on their behalf. But, also also also um knowing that while I can't change um knowing that while I can't change um knowing that while I can't change Gabe's heart, that is the Holy Spirit's Gabe's heart, that is the Holy Spirit's Gabe's heart, that is the Holy Spirit's work. Um I can change me.

work. Um I can change me. work. Um I can change me. I can change my ingredients to the to I can change my ingredients to the to I can change my ingredients to the to the recipe. I can change my and that's the recipe. I can change my and that's the recipe. I can change my and that's almost where there's disruption coming almost where there's disruption coming almost where there's disruption coming in marriages is when one person really in marriages is when one person really in marriages is when one person really starts to get honest with their pain and starts to get honest with their pain and starts to get honest with their pain and their confession and their repentance their confession and their repentance their confession and their repentance and their changing and they're getting and their changing and they're getting and their changing and they're getting in the word and they're inviting in the word and they're inviting in the word and they're inviting accountability. All of a sudden they're accountability. All of a sudden they're accountability. All of a sudden they're like growing and they want they want the like growing and they want they want the like growing and they want they want the fullness. That almost ruptures the fullness. That almost ruptures the fullness. That almost ruptures the relationship because the dysfunctional relationship because the dysfunctional relationship because the dysfunctional dance is done. And the other person the dance is done. And the other person the dance is done. And the other person the codependent relationship does not know codependent relationship does not know codependent relationship does not know what to do. So, yes we still love the what to do. So, yes we still love the what to do. So, yes we still love the one that's not ready or doesn't want one that's not ready or doesn't want one that's not ready or doesn't want repair or is ready to walk. Um but we're repair or is ready to walk. Um but we're repair or is ready to walk. Um but we're we're just kind of continually if you we're just kind of continually if you we're just kind of continually if you have community in that space to keep have community in that space to keep have community in that space to keep coming around that person knowing that coming around that person knowing that coming around that person knowing that that one your change will impact the that one your change will impact the that one your change will impact the other person. Maybe not right away. It other person. Maybe not right away. It other person. Maybe not right away. It might push them away initially. might push them away initially. might push them away initially. But, there's a steadfast But, there's a steadfast But, there's a steadfast um agency that you've taken with healing um agency that you've taken with healing um agency that you've taken with healing that that that is appealing. They are curious about it is appealing. They are curious about it is appealing. They are curious about it because you no longer are holding them because you no longer are holding them because you no longer are holding them accountable or holding them ransom to be accountable or holding them ransom to be accountable or holding them ransom to be your rescuer savior. You have found that your rescuer savior. You have found that your rescuer savior. You have found that codependency with God instead. Yeah, and codependency with God instead. Yeah, and codependency with God instead. Yeah, and I I think we've learned that the only I I think we've learned that the only I I think we've learned that the only thing we could take responsibility for thing we could take responsibility for thing we could take responsibility for is ourself. Like we can't change our is ourself. Like we can't change our is ourself. Like we can't change our spouse. I'm never going to change spouse. I'm never going to change spouse. I'm never going to change Rebecca by quoting to her beautiful Rebecca by quoting to her beautiful Rebecca by quoting to her beautiful quotes. I'm not going to change her by quotes. I'm not going to change her by quotes. I'm not going to change her by handing her a book. Like it's just not handing her a book. Like it's just not handing her a book. Like it's just not going to happen that way. It's largely going to happen that way. It's largely going to happen that way. It's largely going to happen when she sees my own going to happen when she sees my own going to happen when she sees my own growth. God gets a hold of her heart.

growth. God gets a hold of her heart. growth. God gets a hold of her heart. And then there can be some new And then there can be some new And then there can be some new conversations that happen. But, that's conversations that happen. But, that's conversations that happen. But, that's that's the importance of committing to that's the importance of committing to that's the importance of committing to covenant. It's it's going I'm in this covenant. It's it's going I'm in this covenant. It's it's going I'm in this just like I spoke to you in our vows. just like I spoke to you in our vows. just like I spoke to you in our vows. Like I'm not going anywhere. Like I'm not going anywhere. Like I'm not going anywhere. And that's a in this culture today, And that's a in this culture today, And that's a in this culture today, that's a hard thing for people to say. that's a hard thing for people to say. that's a hard thing for people to say. Yeah, I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. And and I think I'm not going anywhere. And and I think I'm not going anywhere. And and I think we need more men to step into that to we need more men to step into that to we need more men to step into that to say, I'm not going anywhere to their say, I'm not going anywhere to their say, I'm not going anywhere to their wives. So, there's a security that can wives. So, there's a security that can wives. So, there's a security that can attach that there's a belief that the attach that there's a belief that the attach that there's a belief that the spouse can have like spouse can have like spouse can have like oh, they're not going anywhere. Like I'm oh, they're not going anywhere. Like I'm oh, they're not going anywhere. Like I'm going to lean in versus lean out to my going to lean in versus lean out to my going to lean in versus lean out to my girlfriends or to my guy friends and try girlfriends or to my guy friends and try girlfriends or to my guy friends and try to find excuse and reason for me to walk to find excuse and reason for me to walk to find excuse and reason for me to walk away. away. away. And so, um for us I think that's been a And so, um for us I think that's been a And so, um for us I think that's been a big part of big part of big part of the core commitment is like we've both the core commitment is like we've both the core commitment is like we've both been committed like we're not going to been committed like we're not going to been committed like we're not going to go anywhere even if we ever felt like we go anywhere even if we ever felt like we go anywhere even if we ever felt like we we should or or would. we should or or would. we should or or would. Wanted to. Want to. Um Wanted to. Want to. Um Wanted to. Want to. Um there's that commitment there. And I and there's that commitment there. And I and there's that commitment there. And I and I think there's an unhealthy way to do I think there's an unhealthy way to do I think there's an unhealthy way to do that to where we we see marriages that that to where we we see marriages that that to where we we see marriages that just go forever and they live avoidant just go forever and they live avoidant just go forever and they live avoidant lives and silent marriages. lives and silent marriages. lives and silent marriages. Avoidant lives. But, but I think our Avoidant lives. But, but I think our Avoidant lives. But, but I think our commitment has been we're not going commitment has been we're not going commitment has been we're not going anywhere because we're going to stay anywhere because we're going to stay anywhere because we're going to stay committed to working and and we're going committed to working and and we're going committed to working and and we're going to never think we've arrived at at what to never think we've arrived at at what to never think we've arrived at at what a beautiful perfect marriage is. We have a beautiful perfect marriage is. We have a beautiful perfect marriage is. We have four um four dances in the book in the four um four dances in the book in the four um four dances in the book in the dysfunctional dance chapter. A silent, dysfunctional dance chapter. A silent, dysfunctional dance chapter. A silent, intense, avoidant, and anxious. And intense, avoidant, and anxious. And intense, avoidant, and anxious. And avoidant, the difference between that avoidant, the difference between that avoidant, the difference between that and silent avoidant is you just change and silent avoidant is you just change and silent avoidant is you just change the subject. So that you never really the subject. So that you never really the subject. So that you never really have to have conflict. Whereas the have to have conflict. Whereas the have to have conflict. Whereas the silent is the hurt is so deep and has silent is the hurt is so deep and has silent is the hurt is so deep and has gone for so long and been left unsaid gone for so long and been left unsaid gone for so long and been left unsaid that that the resentment and the that that the resentment and the that that the resentment and the contempt is already there. They're

contempt is already there. They're contempt is already there. They're stonewalling. It's like it's it's stonewalling. It's like it's it's stonewalling. It's like it's it's absent. And so absent. And so absent. And so when you say, "Hey, if if people started when you say, "Hey, if if people started when you say, "Hey, if if people started telling the truth, the marriages would telling the truth, the marriages would telling the truth, the marriages would be over." I'm like, "The marriage be over." I'm like, "The marriage be over." I'm like, "The marriage essentially is over." And the way that essentially is over." And the way that essentially is over." And the way that that God They are now roommates or that God They are now roommates or that God They are now roommates or business partners. business partners. business partners. Um they're co-parenting, whatever they Um they're co-parenting, whatever they Um they're co-parenting, whatever they are. So we're just going like if it's are. So we're just going like if it's are. So we're just going like if it's already over and you still are going to already over and you still are going to already over and you still are going to stay under one roof, why not get honest? stay under one roof, why not get honest? stay under one roof, why not get honest? Yes. Why not? Why not just try and go, Yes. Why not? Why not just try and go, Yes. Why not? Why not just try and go, "Hey, can we We might We need a third "Hey, can we We might We need a third "Hey, can we We might We need a third party, a referee?" Sure. But like could party, a referee?" Sure. But like could party, a referee?" Sure. But like could we broach um scratching the surface we broach um scratching the surface we broach um scratching the surface because there's going to be something on because there's going to be something on because there's going to be something on the other side of this. Silent, intense, the other side of this. Silent, intense, the other side of this. Silent, intense, avoidant. avoidant. avoidant. Avoidant and anxious. Anxious. Yeah, Avoidant and anxious. Anxious. Yeah, Avoidant and anxious. Anxious. Yeah, there's these dances. We We have found there's these dances. We We have found there's these dances. We We have found these four dances are happening in most these four dances are happening in most these four dances are happening in most marriages. And sometimes that changes marriages. And sometimes that changes marriages. And sometimes that changes depending on the season. But if you can depending on the season. But if you can depending on the season. But if you can identify, what's the dance we're doing? identify, what's the dance we're doing? identify, what's the dance we're doing? Ours is an intense one. We have an Ours is an intense one. We have an Ours is an intense one. We have an intense dance that we tend to do with intense dance that we tend to do with intense dance that we tend to do with each other. each other. each other. the things that hurt and wound and yeah. the things that hurt and wound and yeah. the things that hurt and wound and yeah. Yeah. And then we'll, you know, have Yeah. And then we'll, you know, have Yeah. And then we'll, you know, have makeup sex, but it really didn't work, makeup sex, but it really didn't work, makeup sex, but it really didn't work, right? Like Some people are really just right? Like Some people are really just right? Like Some people are really just passionate people. They They fuel each passionate people. They They fuel each passionate people. They They fuel each other, but then they never fully repair other, but then they never fully repair other, but then they never fully repair in the in the right way.

in the in the right way. in the in the right way. What What is anxious? What What is anxious? What What is anxious? Anxious is this need I need you to be Anxious is this need I need you to be Anxious is this need I need you to be okay so I can be okay. And I need you to okay so I can be okay. And I need you to okay so I can be okay. And I need you to be home at a certain time so I can be be home at a certain time so I can be be home at a certain time so I can be okay. And okay. And okay. And I need stability with finances. And And I need stability with finances. And And I need stability with finances. And And yes, we do need provision, but all of a yes, we do need provision, but all of a yes, we do need provision, but all of a sudden the codependency is when we latch sudden the codependency is when we latch sudden the codependency is when we latch on to someone other than God for our on to someone other than God for our on to someone other than God for our source, our strength, our sustenance. source, our strength, our sustenance. source, our strength, our sustenance. And so that that anxious one, I think And so that that anxious one, I think And so that that anxious one, I think And for you, it's just like you know, And for you, it's just like you know, And for you, it's just like you know, whatever it is that kind of gets you a whatever it is that kind of gets you a whatever it is that kind of gets you a little bit How would you How would you little bit How would you How would you little bit How would you How would you answer the anxious one? Yeah. answer the anxious one? Yeah. answer the anxious one? Yeah. That's not what I feel as much for for That's not what I feel as much for for That's not what I feel as much for for us. But I think for couples that feel us. But I think for couples that feel us. But I think for couples that feel that I think a lot of husbands would that I think a lot of husbands would that I think a lot of husbands would report to me, you know, "Hey, my wife report to me, you know, "Hey, my wife report to me, you know, "Hey, my wife is constantly unsettled, constantly the is constantly unsettled, constantly the is constantly unsettled, constantly the complaining things happening a lot." And complaining things happening a lot." And complaining things happening a lot." And And they would tie it back to she's And they would tie it back to she's And they would tie it back to she's anxious. Like she's not feeling settled anxious. Like she's not feeling settled anxious. Like she's not feeling settled in who she is outside of me. She's not in who she is outside of me. She's not in who she is outside of me. She's not feeling feeling feeling at peace with our situation and and at peace with our situation and and at peace with our situation and and never has. It feels like since I've never has. It feels like since I've never has. It feels like since I've known them, you know, since we've been known them, you know, since we've been known them, you know, since we've been married, this has come up a lot. And And married, this has come up a lot. And And married, this has come up a lot. And And they start to identify, "Oh, that's they start to identify, "Oh, that's they start to identify, "Oh, that's what's going on." When you said anxious, what's going on." When you said anxious, what's going on." When you said anxious, a lot of a lot of a lot of faces popped into my mind of marriages.

faces popped into my mind of marriages. faces popped into my mind of marriages. I think there's a lot of anxiety, a lot I think there's a lot of anxiety, a lot I think there's a lot of anxiety, a lot of I need you to do this so I can feel of I need you to do this so I can feel of I need you to do this so I can feel this, etc. What are, you know, it's very this, etc. What are, you know, it's very this, etc. What are, you know, it's very common and and and I know you're not common and and and I know you're not common and and and I know you're not like this, okay? Oh. But it's very like this, okay? Oh. But it's very like this, okay? Oh. But it's very common in Christian circles to be like, common in Christian circles to be like, common in Christian circles to be like, "Well, you know, we've been married 28 "Well, you know, we've been married 28 "Well, you know, we've been married 28 years. All our struggles are in the years. All our struggles are in the years. All our struggles are in the rearview mirror. And now we're living rearview mirror. And now we're living rearview mirror. And now we're living happily ever after, you know, skipping happily ever after, you know, skipping happily ever after, you know, skipping into the sunset together, hand in hand." into the sunset together, hand in hand." into the sunset together, hand in hand." What are your current struggles? What are your current struggles? What are your current struggles? Uh launching kids. Uh launching kids. Uh launching kids. Um I would just say like a fight we had Um I would just say like a fight we had Um I would just say like a fight we had Christmas Eve. So that's as in as in Christmas Eve. So that's as in as in Christmas Eve. So that's as in as in like as in not not not like a few years like as in not not not like a few years like as in not not not like a few years ago Christmas Eve, but the most recent ago Christmas Eve, but the most recent ago Christmas Eve, but the most recent Christmas Eve was just my anxiety of Christmas Eve was just my anxiety of Christmas Eve was just my anxiety of like all our college kids coming back like all our college kids coming back like all our college kids coming back home. And we have found a rhythm now as home. And we have found a rhythm now as home. And we have found a rhythm now as empty nesters. And then they come back empty nesters. And then they come back empty nesters. And then they come back home and everyone kind of jumps back home and everyone kind of jumps back home and everyone kind of jumps back into their origin story roles. And it's into their origin story roles. And it's into their origin story roles. And it's like, "You were so independent at like, "You were so independent at like, "You were so independent at college. And now that we're back home, college. And now that we're back home, college. And now that we're back home, all of a sudden I'm mothering again." all of a sudden I'm mothering again." all of a sudden I'm mothering again." You know? Um so things came to a head You know? Um so things came to a head You know? Um so things came to a head and I got really I had one of my bigger and I got really I had one of my bigger and I got really I had one of my bigger meltdowns that I've had in the last meltdowns that I've had in the last meltdowns that I've had in the last couple years.

couple years. couple years. Privately publicly? Publicly then ran to Privately publicly? Publicly then ran to Privately publicly? Publicly then ran to the closet and then finished privately. the closet and then finished privately. the closet and then finished privately. And so it showed me that, "Wow, God, you And so it showed me that, "Wow, God, you And so it showed me that, "Wow, God, you have done a lot of work, but there's have done a lot of work, but there's have done a lot of work, but there's more. And I'm so thankful to have the more. And I'm so thankful to have the more. And I'm so thankful to have the freedom and not shame to say that out freedom and not shame to say that out freedom and not shame to say that out loud so that I could come back I I first loud so that I could come back I I first loud so that I could come back I I first apologized to Gabe. And then we both apologized to Gabe. And then we both apologized to Gabe. And then we both like I apologized It happened in front like I apologized It happened in front like I apologized It happened in front of my adult children, too. So it's like of my adult children, too. So it's like of my adult children, too. So it's like trust me, the Lord will continue to use trust me, the Lord will continue to use trust me, the Lord will continue to use ways to humble us ways to humble us ways to humble us into eternity. Um but but that was into eternity. Um but but that was into eternity. Um but but that was needed and important. And I think the needed and important. And I think the needed and important. And I think the more we can own those things faster, more we can own those things faster, more we can own those things faster, that's what we are learning is that that's what we are learning is that that's what we are learning is that while those things may still happen, we while those things may still happen, we while those things may still happen, we repair a lot faster. repair a lot faster. repair a lot faster. Our apologies come so quick now. Our apologies come so quick now. Our apologies come so quick now. quicker. quicker. quicker. Like within Like within Like within Yeah, an hour. Yeah, max. That was a Yeah, an hour. Yeah, max. That was a Yeah, an hour. Yeah, max. That was a meltdown and that still took me an hour. meltdown and that still took me an hour. meltdown and that still took me an hour. early in marriage, that would have been early in marriage, that would have been early in marriage, that would have been two, three days of hanging on to two, three days of hanging on to two, three days of hanging on to something, of never working through it. something, of never working through it. something, of never working through it. And And I think And And I think And And I think And then condemning ourselves in the And then condemning ourselves in the And then condemning ourselves in the meantime while we're waiting to repair. meantime while we're waiting to repair. meantime while we're waiting to repair. That's the worst. And It's like we start That's the worst. And It's like we start That's the worst. And It's like we start the problem, the enemy just finishes up.

the problem, the enemy just finishes up. the problem, the enemy just finishes up. He's like, "We give him an open runway He's like, "We give him an open runway He's like, "We give him an open runway to be like just continue to pile on to be like just continue to pile on to be like just continue to pile on about how terrible I am as a human." about how terrible I am as a human." about how terrible I am as a human." Yeah, one of our principles is to Yeah, one of our principles is to Yeah, one of our principles is to apologize first. And And whoever apologize first. And And whoever apologize first. And And whoever apologizes first wins. So So be on the apologizes first wins. So So be on the apologizes first wins. So So be on the hunt. Like if there's a moment that hunt. Like if there's a moment that hunt. Like if there's a moment that erupts, there's probably something you erupts, there's probably something you erupts, there's probably something you contributed to that. Even if you just contributed to that. Even if you just contributed to that. Even if you just You're I'm sure it's Rebecca's fault. You're I'm sure it's Rebecca's fault. You're I'm sure it's Rebecca's fault. She's the one that brought this up. I She's the one that brought this up. I She's the one that brought this up. I usually try to think through now like, usually try to think through now like, usually try to think through now like, "What did I do there? Like how did I "What did I do there? Like how did I "What did I do there? Like how did I amplify it? How did I not respond well? amplify it? How did I not respond well? amplify it? How did I not respond well? How did I not really listen to what she How did I not really listen to what she How did I not really listen to what she was saying?" Um and that takes a little was saying?" Um and that takes a little was saying?" Um and that takes a little work and a little effort. But we have work and a little effort. But we have work and a little effort. But we have found the repair happening quick. found the repair happening quick. found the repair happening quick. Just leaves no room for these deeper, Just leaves no room for these deeper, Just leaves no room for these deeper, you know, fissures to like form into you know, fissures to like form into you know, fissures to like form into something more concrete. something more concrete. something more concrete. What's a current struggle for you? I What's a current struggle for you? I What's a current struggle for you? I think our schedules as we look at the think our schedules as we look at the think our schedules as we look at the future. Um there's so many as And you future. Um there's so many as And you future. Um there's so many as And you know this, Carey, too. It's like there's know this, Carey, too. It's like there's know this, Carey, too. It's like there's there's so many opportunities that all there's so many opportunities that all there's so many opportunities that all look great, you know? Think trips to to look great, you know? Think trips to to look great, you know? Think trips to to take together or take together or take together or um conferences to attend or speaking um conferences to attend or speaking um conferences to attend or speaking engagements. And um I think we we tend engagements. And um I think we we tend engagements. And um I think we we tend to have a hard time like working through to have a hard time like working through to have a hard time like working through a year out. What is saying yes to this a year out. What is saying yes to this a year out. What is saying yes to this going to mean? Mhm. And how's this going going to mean? Mhm. And how's this going going to mean? Mhm. And how's this going to impact what we're feeling next to impact what we're feeling next to impact what we're feeling next February? Cuz it's so far away. It's February? Cuz it's so far away. It's February? Cuz it's so far away. It's like, "Yeah, let's do that."

like, "Yeah, let's do that." like, "Yeah, let's do that." Yeah, hey, our calendar's blank. So Yeah, hey, our calendar's blank. So Yeah, hey, our calendar's blank. So we've gotten a lot better at it. But I we've gotten a lot better at it. But I we've gotten a lot better at it. But I think that's one of those as we look to think that's one of those as we look to think that's one of those as we look to the future now that we're in a new the future now that we're in a new the future now that we're in a new season where our kids are adults. Like season where our kids are adults. Like season where our kids are adults. Like we're trying to form What is our What do we're trying to form What is our What do we're trying to form What is our What do we want our rhythm of life to be like? we want our rhythm of life to be like? we want our rhythm of life to be like? And what kind of boundaries should we And what kind of boundaries should we And what kind of boundaries should we put around that? And anytime we have put around that? And anytime we have put around that? And anytime we have that conversation, it's gotten better. that conversation, it's gotten better. that conversation, it's gotten better. But it's always been a one that's a bit But it's always been a one that's a bit But it's always been a one that's a bit a bit of tense a bit of tense a bit of tense conversation because, you know, you're conversation because, you know, you're conversation because, you know, you're trying to respond to what's God doing trying to respond to what's God doing trying to respond to what's God doing here. But we don't want to blame God for here. But we don't want to blame God for here. But we don't want to blame God for just being busy. just being busy. just being busy. Um and yet we want to be sensitive to Um and yet we want to be sensitive to Um and yet we want to be sensitive to those moves. And And so I don't I those moves. And And so I don't I those moves. And And so I don't I wouldn't call it a big conflict as much wouldn't call it a big conflict as much wouldn't call it a big conflict as much as it's created a new opportunity for us as it's created a new opportunity for us as it's created a new opportunity for us to just kind of reset. What is our to just kind of reset. What is our to just kind of reset. What is our What are our plans and how are we going What are our plans and how are we going What are our plans and how are we going to do this as we move into this season? to do this as we move into this season? to do this as we move into this season? Even with like a marriage book cuz a lot Even with like a marriage book cuz a lot Even with like a marriage book cuz a lot of people invite us to do things of people invite us to do things of people invite us to do things together. But we have two children with together. But we have two children with together. But we have two children with special needs at home. And And we can't special needs at home. And And we can't special needs at home. And And we can't both We We don't both go often to do both We We don't both go often to do both We We don't both go often to do things together. things together. things together. Um and so that means there's a lot of Um and so that means there's a lot of Um and so that means there's a lot of saying no to things that would have been saying no to things that would have been saying no to things that would have been great to do. great to do. great to do. Um or trying to navigate like, "Okay, Um or trying to navigate like, "Okay, Um or trying to navigate like, "Okay, how do we help do this together?" You how do we help do this together?" You how do we help do this together?" You know? know? know? Our counselor cautioned us about 5 years Our counselor cautioned us about 5 years Our counselor cautioned us about 5 years ago. He said uh ago. He said uh ago. He said uh cuz we were very volatile in that moment cuz we were very volatile in that moment cuz we were very volatile in that moment of like all the things we were trying to of like all the things we were trying to of like all the things we were trying to do. And he said, "It's like you bought do. And he said, "It's like you bought do. And he said, "It's like you bought bit off a 10-lb cheeseburger and you're bit off a 10-lb cheeseburger and you're bit off a 10-lb cheeseburger and you're trying not to choke on it."

trying not to choke on it." trying not to choke on it." He said, "I don't see um divorce in your He said, "I don't see um divorce in your He said, "I don't see um divorce in your future because of infidelity. Um if future because of infidelity. Um if future because of infidelity. Um if there were any option for you guys to there were any option for you guys to there were any option for you guys to leave or drift, it would be because you leave or drift, it would be because you leave or drift, it would be because you said yes to too many good things." said yes to too many good things." said yes to too many good things." Wow. Wow. Wow. And that was like, "Wow." So that is our And that was like, "Wow." So that is our And that was like, "Wow." So that is our I think that's our ultimate challenge as I think that's our ultimate challenge as I think that's our ultimate challenge as Christ followers, those who are on the Christ followers, those who are on the Christ followers, those who are on the front lines of ministry, who are hard front lines of ministry, who are hard front lines of ministry, who are hard charging, and feel both mutually called charging, and feel both mutually called charging, and feel both mutually called and love the work. and love the work. and love the work. You can lose each other in the work. The You can lose each other in the work. The You can lose each other in the work. The drift is so subtle. Mhm. And we were drift is so subtle. Mhm. And we were drift is so subtle. Mhm. And we were doing this and then our friends doing this and then our friends doing this and then our friends encouraged us to go and doing this. And encouraged us to go and doing this. And encouraged us to go and doing this. And so we made proactive choices to co-host so we made proactive choices to co-host so we made proactive choices to co-host our podcast, to co-host these retreats, our podcast, to co-host these retreats, our podcast, to co-host these retreats, to co-host these intensives. to co-host these intensives. to co-host these intensives. Not because we had to or needed to, but Not because we had to or needed to, but Not because we had to or needed to, but because we knew that we needed something because we knew that we needed something because we knew that we needed something to keep us tethered to one another. Mhm. to keep us tethered to one another. Mhm. to keep us tethered to one another. Mhm. I'll tell you, this has been a gift. I'll tell you, this has been a gift. I'll tell you, this has been a gift. There is a lot in this conversation. There is a lot in this conversation. There is a lot in this conversation. There's even more in the book. Do you There's even more in the book. Do you There's even more in the book. Do you have a copy of the book? Do we have that have a copy of the book? Do we have that have a copy of the book? Do we have that somewhere? We have an arc. We have an somewhere? We have an arc. We have an somewhere? We have an arc. We have an You have an arc. All right. We'll take You have an arc. All right. We'll take You have an arc. All right. We'll take an arc cuz it's a cool cover.

an arc cuz it's a cool cover. an arc cuz it's a cool cover. It's called Fight For Us. There it is. It's called Fight For Us. There it is. It's called Fight For Us. There it is. Lions and lions as well. Lions and lions as well. Lions and lions as well. Lions and lions. Yeah. Crazy. Lions and lions. Yeah. Crazy. Lions and lions. Yeah. Crazy. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Um Um Um so the book is out now or about now when so the book is out now or about now when so the book is out now or about now when this airs. And anything else you want to this airs. And anything else you want to this airs. And anything else you want to tell tell tell people watching, people listening? people watching, people listening? people watching, people listening? Uh I have one thing. Okay, so there's a Uh I have one thing. Okay, so there's a Uh I have one thing. Okay, so there's a lot in Gen Z. So our work we we serve lot in Gen Z. So our work we we serve lot in Gen Z. So our work we we serve the next generation. We love their zeal the next generation. We love their zeal the next generation. We love their zeal and we love their passion. We love their and we love their passion. We love their and we love their passion. We love their fire for God. It's just our kids are in fire for God. It's just our kids are in fire for God. It's just our kids are in that generation. Like we are we're so that generation. Like we are we're so that generation. Like we are we're so proximate to us to it. One thing I'm proximate to us to it. One thing I'm proximate to us to it. One thing I'm finding in that generation, especially finding in that generation, especially finding in that generation, especially in regarding counsel in marriage, is in regarding counsel in marriage, is in regarding counsel in marriage, is there are a lot of there are a lot of there are a lot of unprepared counsel advice givers with unprepared counsel advice givers with unprepared counsel advice givers with platforms on Tik Tok that can tell you platforms on Tik Tok that can tell you platforms on Tik Tok that can tell you how to have a great marriage. And they how to have a great marriage. And they how to have a great marriage. And they are either single or they've been are either single or they've been are either single or they've been married for 3 minutes. And so I would married for 3 minutes. And so I would married for 3 minutes. And so I would just counsel you to go to your pastor, just counsel you to go to your pastor, just counsel you to go to your pastor, your local like the person who's your your local like the person who's your your local like the person who's your mentor, people who disciple you, who mentor, people who disciple you, who mentor, people who disciple you, who know you, who've done your premarital know you, who've done your premarital know you, who've done your premarital counseling, maybe you're dating with the counseling, maybe you're dating with the counseling, maybe you're dating with the intent to marry.

intent to marry. intent to marry. Um go to people in your actual life who Um go to people in your actual life who Um go to people in your actual life who are older than you that might have a are older than you that might have a are older than you that might have a little gray, um that crown of wisdom. little gray, um that crown of wisdom. little gray, um that crown of wisdom. Zeal and wisdom was meant to be paired Zeal and wisdom was meant to be paired Zeal and wisdom was meant to be paired together. And so that generational together. And so that generational together. And so that generational handoff is very important. Um we want to handoff is very important. Um we want to handoff is very important. Um we want to give, you know, to the people coming give, you know, to the people coming give, you know, to the people coming behind us what we didn't fully get. We behind us what we didn't fully get. We behind us what we didn't fully get. We kind of found it in books and different kind of found it in books and different kind of found it in books and different counselors throughout um our whole counselors throughout um our whole counselors throughout um our whole marriage. But we would not be where we marriage. But we would not be where we marriage. But we would not be where we are without sound counsel holding us are without sound counsel holding us are without sound counsel holding us accountable, biblical counsel that was accountable, biblical counsel that was accountable, biblical counsel that was for the marriage, not just for the for the marriage, not just for the for the marriage, not just for the individual, but for the marriage. Yeah, individual, but for the marriage. Yeah, individual, but for the marriage. Yeah, that's a that's an important caution. A that's a that's an important caution. A that's a that's an important caution. A lot of counselors today are trained not lot of counselors today are trained not lot of counselors today are trained not in marriage and family, but in in marriage and family, but in in marriage and family, but in individual therapy. individual therapy. individual therapy. Right. But the questions that are coming Right. But the questions that are coming Right. But the questions that are coming up in those sessions deal with marriage. up in those sessions deal with marriage. up in those sessions deal with marriage. And they find themselves sometimes And they find themselves sometimes And they find themselves sometimes counseling that individual in a counseling that individual in a counseling that individual in a direction that actually leads them away direction that actually leads them away direction that actually leads them away from the from the from the Cuz they get one side of the story. Cuz they get one side of the story. Cuz they get one side of the story. That's right. Mhm. That's right. Mhm. That's right. Mhm. And so I would caution couples they And so I would caution couples they And so I would caution couples they like a beast. like a beast. like a beast. they really need to have counsel in they really need to have counsel in they really need to have counsel in their life their life their life committed to the marriage. And I committed to the marriage. And I committed to the marriage. And I wouldn't be listening to anybody that's wouldn't be listening to anybody that's wouldn't be listening to anybody that's not committed to a covenant marriage not committed to a covenant marriage not committed to a covenant marriage because I'm not sure the advice you're because I'm not sure the advice you're because I'm not sure the advice you're going to get is going to lead to that going to get is going to lead to that going to get is going to lead to that marriage getting healthier. Yeah.

marriage getting healthier. Yeah. marriage getting healthier. Yeah. Woo. Woo. Woo. Could have gone Rogan on this like 3 Could have gone Rogan on this like 3 Could have gone Rogan on this like 3 hours. This has been This has been hours. This has been This has been hours. This has been This has been great. Thank you. great. Thank you. great. Thank you. Thank you both so much. Thank you both so much. Thank you both so much. Thank you. So much. Thank you. So much. Thank you. So much. it. Congrats on the new book. It's going it. Congrats on the new book. It's going it. Congrats on the new book. It's going to help a lot of people. Thank you, to help a lot of people. Thank you, to help a lot of people. Thank you, Carrie. Grateful for you. Thank you.