The Lie Leaders Believe: Jennie Allen on Suffering and Spiritual Warfare

Al Summer, I felt abandoned. I felt used Al Summer, I felt abandoned. I felt used by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm leading something that's impacting the leading something that's impacting the leading something that's impacting the world, I feel protected. I feel held up. world, I feel protected. I feel held up. world, I feel protected. I feel held up. I feel and I I struggled with God." I feel and I I struggled with God." I feel and I I struggled with God." Like, I was angry. I was I felt Like, I was angry. I was I felt Like, I was angry. I was I felt abandoned. I felt abandoned. I felt abandoned. I felt um I don't know. I just felt like he um I don't know. I just felt like he um I don't know. I just felt like he he didn't care about me. Welcome to the he didn't care about me. Welcome to the he didn't care about me. Welcome to the Carrie Newuhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm Carrie Newuhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm Carrie Newuhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, if you so glad you joined us today. Hey, if you so glad you joined us today. Hey, if you ever wanted to quit, you're in good ever wanted to quit, you're in good ever wanted to quit, you're in good company. I've wanted to quit at times company. I've wanted to quit at times company. I've wanted to quit at times and today I'm sitting down with Jenny and today I'm sitting down with Jenny and today I'm sitting down with Jenny Allen and she talks about wanting to Allen and she talks about wanting to Allen and she talks about wanting to quit everything as recently as in the quit everything as recently as in the quit everything as recently as in the last 12 months. You know, when you go last 12 months. You know, when you go last 12 months. You know, when you go through those spiritual highs, like you through those spiritual highs, like you through those spiritual highs, like you kind of hit a mountaintop and then you kind of hit a mountaintop and then you kind of hit a mountaintop and then you just come crashing down. She had one of just come crashing down. She had one of just come crashing down. She had one of those years. And so we're going to talk those years. And so we're going to talk those years. And so we're going to talk about suffering, talk about spiritual about suffering, talk about spiritual about suffering, talk about spiritual warfare, lies leaders believe, and we're warfare, lies leaders believe, and we're warfare, lies leaders believe, and we're also going to talk about not giving up. also going to talk about not giving up. also going to talk about not giving up. You know, 24% of you who are listening You know, 24% of you who are listening You know, 24% of you who are listening right now, if you're a church leader, right now, if you're a church leader, right now, if you're a church leader, statistically still want to quit. How do statistically still want to quit. How do statistically still want to quit. How do you not give up? I think you're going to you not give up? I think you're going to you not give up? I think you're going to find this to be really encouraging. A find this to be really encouraging. A find this to be really encouraging. A welcome to all of you who are brand new welcome to all of you who are brand new welcome to all of you who are brand new to the podcast. We continue to see the to the podcast. We continue to see the to the podcast. We continue to see the show grow every single month. Really show grow every single month. Really show grow every single month. Really glad. And you know how it does that?

glad. And you know how it does that? glad. And you know how it does that? When you share it with your friends, When you share it with your friends, When you share it with your friends, when you bring it to your team, when you when you bring it to your team, when you when you bring it to your team, when you text the link, man, it makes a big text the link, man, it makes a big text the link, man, it makes a big difference. And when you share it on difference. And when you share it on difference. And when you share it on social as well, if you put it on social, social as well, if you put it on social, social as well, if you put it on social, sometimes we repost you, you can tag me. sometimes we repost you, you can tag me. sometimes we repost you, you can tag me. I'm Carrie Nu-Hoff on Instagram and I'm Carrie Nu-Hoff on Instagram and I'm Carrie Nu-Hoff on Instagram and Cuhoff on a lot of other platforms. If Cuhoff on a lot of other platforms. If Cuhoff on a lot of other platforms. If you want show notes, you can get them at you want show notes, you can get them at you want show notes, you can get them at carnu-hoff.com/showotes carnu-hoff.com/showotes carnu-hoff.com/showotes or go to the art of or go to the art of or go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. Set up a free account. You'll find it Set up a free account. You'll find it Set up a free account. You'll find it all inside there as well as some great all inside there as well as some great all inside there as well as some great conversations. Jenny Allen is a Bible conversations. Jenny Allen is a Bible conversations. Jenny Allen is a Bible teacher, author, podcast host, and teacher, author, podcast host, and teacher, author, podcast host, and visionary leader. She's the founder of visionary leader. She's the founder of visionary leader. She's the founder of If Gathering and Gather 25, soon gather If Gathering and Gather 25, soon gather If Gathering and Gather 25, soon gather 27. With a vision to mobilize the global 27. With a vision to mobilize the global 27. With a vision to mobilize the global church, she's devoted her life to church, she's devoted her life to church, she's devoted her life to disciple a generation to see revival disciple a generation to see revival disciple a generation to see revival across the globe. She has written three across the globe. She has written three across the globe. She has written three New York Times bestsellers, inspiring New York Times bestsellers, inspiring New York Times bestsellers, inspiring millions of people to experience freedom millions of people to experience freedom millions of people to experience freedom in Jesus. And that's where we go in this in Jesus. And that's where we go in this in Jesus. And that's where we go in this conversation. So, without a lot of conversation. So, without a lot of conversation. So, without a lot of further ado, my conversation with Jenny further ado, my conversation with Jenny further ado, my conversation with Jenny Allen. Jenny, we got so much to catch up Allen. Jenny, we got so much to catch up Allen. Jenny, we got so much to catch up on. Welcome back to the podcast.

on. Welcome back to the podcast. on. Welcome back to the podcast. >> Love being here every time, Carrie. >> Love being here every time, Carrie. >> Love being here every time, Carrie. Thank you for having me again. Thank you for having me again. Thank you for having me again. >> It's a lot of fun. So, it was a year ago >> It's a lot of fun. So, it was a year ago >> It's a lot of fun. So, it was a year ago that you did Gather 25. Uh, literally that you did Gather 25. Uh, literally that you did Gather 25. Uh, literally the biggest event in the world of its the biggest event in the world of its the biggest event in the world of its kind ever. We were so fortunate to have kind ever. We were so fortunate to have kind ever. We were so fortunate to have front row seats to it, backstage access. front row seats to it, backstage access. front row seats to it, backstage access. Tony and I flew down for it. It was Tony and I flew down for it. It was Tony and I flew down for it. It was amazing. I would love to know what drove amazing. I would love to know what drove amazing. I would love to know what drove you to want to do it you to want to do it you to want to do it >> and then what were the obstacles because >> and then what were the obstacles because >> and then what were the obstacles because I know you had a ton of obstacles in the I know you had a ton of obstacles in the I know you had a ton of obstacles in the way even logistical right like oh way even logistical right like oh way even logistical right like oh >> literally it's never been done before we >> literally it's never been done before we >> literally it's never been done before we got a lot of leaders listening who want got a lot of leaders listening who want got a lot of leaders listening who want to do things that have never been done to do things that have never been done to do things that have never been done before so I I want you before so I I want you before so I I want you >> don't recommend it >> don't recommend it >> don't recommend it >> do not recommend it >> do not recommend it >> do not recommend it >> there's a reason it's never been done >> there's a reason it's never been done >> there's a reason it's never been done before no it was it was magic I mean before no it was it was magic I mean before no it was it was magic I mean when I think back I mean when I think when I think back I mean when I think when I think back I mean when I think back I you know this back I you know this back I you know this It could only have been God. It was God It could only have been God. It was God It could only have been God. It was God as the literal front row sitter. I can't as the literal front row sitter. I can't as the literal front row sitter. I can't believe he did it. I can't believe he believe he did it. I can't believe he believe he did it. I can't believe he pulled it off. I I woke up in 2022 with pulled it off. I I woke up in 2022 with pulled it off. I I woke up in 2022 with a vivid dream that I'd had that Jesus a vivid dream that I'd had that Jesus a vivid dream that I'd had that Jesus was coming back soon. And it just it I was coming back soon. And it just it I was coming back soon. And it just it I was like, what would we do? What would was like, what would we do? What would was like, what would we do? What would we do if Jesus were coming back soon? I we do if Jesus were coming back soon? I we do if Jesus were coming back soon? I can tell you a lot of things we should can tell you a lot of things we should can tell you a lot of things we should stop doing. And I also felt like we stop doing. And I also felt like we stop doing. And I also felt like we should gather the global church and and should gather the global church and and should gather the global church and and be sure that we are living out the great be sure that we are living out the great be sure that we are living out the great commission. I mean that was his final commission. I mean that was his final commission. I mean that was his final word as he's ascending to heaven. Like word as he's ascending to heaven. Like word as he's ascending to heaven. Like we've got to be great at that. Like if we've got to be great at that. Like if we've got to be great at that. Like if we're we're good at nothing else. Let's we're we're good at nothing else. Let's we're we're good at nothing else. Let's be great at helping people find their

be great at helping people find their be great at helping people find their way to Jesus. And so I thought, well, way to Jesus. And so I thought, well, way to Jesus. And so I thought, well, let's just get everybody together let's just get everybody together let's just get everybody together because we are church planters. My because we are church planters. My because we are church planters. My husband was a pastor for 12 years and in husband was a pastor for 12 years and in husband was a pastor for 12 years and in Austin, Texas. And we are we are church Austin, Texas. And we are we are church Austin, Texas. And we are we are church people and we believe in the local people and we believe in the local people and we believe in the local church and we used to have potlucks and church and we used to have potlucks and church and we used to have potlucks and we would have kind of a state of the we would have kind of a state of the we would have kind of a state of the church and bring everybody together. church and bring everybody together. church and bring everybody together. Everybody bring food and we would talk Everybody bring food and we would talk Everybody bring food and we would talk about like with our with our members and about like with our with our members and about like with our with our members and our most invested people. We talk about our most invested people. We talk about our most invested people. We talk about how the church is doing, what we need to how the church is doing, what we need to how the church is doing, what we need to do better, what we want to see God do in do better, what we want to see God do in do better, what we want to see God do in our lives. And I just pictured that, you our lives. And I just pictured that, you our lives. And I just pictured that, you know, I was like, let's have a big old know, I was like, let's have a big old know, I was like, let's have a big old giant global potluck. And that's kind of giant global potluck. And that's kind of giant global potluck. And that's kind of what happened. For 25 hours, we went what happened. For 25 hours, we went what happened. For 25 hours, we went live from every continent. And we, you live from every continent. And we, you live from every continent. And we, you know, it was, it was the church on know, it was, it was the church on know, it was, it was the church on display like I've never seen it before. display like I've never seen it before. display like I've never seen it before. >> It literally was a global church. Yeah. >> It literally was a global church. Yeah. >> It literally was a global church. Yeah. when we dropped into Africa and the kids when we dropped into Africa and the kids when we dropped into Africa and the kids that were rescued from from you know war that were rescued from from you know war that were rescued from from you know war torn countries where they had been child torn countries where they had been child torn countries where they had been child soldiers started dancing and singing and soldiers started dancing and singing and soldiers started dancing and singing and talking about suffering you know and the talking about suffering you know and the talking about suffering you know and the whole my phone is just blowing up when whole my phone is just blowing up when whole my phone is just blowing up when we landed in Africa and everybody's just we landed in Africa and everybody's just we landed in Africa and everybody's just crying and like that you know we just we crying and like that you know we just we crying and like that you know we just we saw things that we needed to see and and saw things that we needed to see and and saw things that we needed to see and and I think everybody left very very sober I think everybody left very very sober I think everybody left very very sober and encouraged that we're part of a and encouraged that we're part of a and encouraged that we're part of a really big team that we are we are not really big team that we are we are not really big team that we are we are not confused what we're supposed to be doing confused what we're supposed to be doing confused what we're supposed to be doing right now. Like we have a mission and is right now. Like we have a mission and is right now. Like we have a mission and is to help billions of people find Jesus

to help billions of people find Jesus to help billions of people find Jesus >> and I can't think of anything more >> and I can't think of anything more >> and I can't think of anything more important and and we can do it because important and and we can do it because important and and we can do it because we have a really big team. So we can do we have a really big team. So we can do we have a really big team. So we can do this. We just we need to work together this. We just we need to work together this. We just we need to work together and we need to remember what he called and we need to remember what he called and we need to remember what he called us to. And so as far as obstacles though us to. And so as far as obstacles though us to. And so as far as obstacles though I could go all day. I mean it was the I could go all day. I mean it was the I could go all day. I mean it was the scariest thing I've ever done. I had no scariest thing I've ever done. I had no scariest thing I've ever done. I had no idea. Invited the world and then I idea. Invited the world and then I idea. Invited the world and then I didn't know if it would work, you know, didn't know if it would work, you know, didn't know if it would work, you know, literally physically work. We we had 86 literally physically work. We we had 86 literally physically work. We we had 86 languages we translated, 85 of them were languages we translated, 85 of them were languages we translated, 85 of them were accessed. Um it was it was you know accessed. Um it was it was you know accessed. Um it was it was you know that's what what had never been done that's what what had never been done that's what what had never been done before and that was why we were able to before and that was why we were able to before and that was why we were able to gather the whole world was because of AI gather the whole world was because of AI gather the whole world was because of AI and translation capabilities that had and translation capabilities that had and translation capabilities that had not been tested in that format. So when not been tested in that format. So when not been tested in that format. So when I'm in the studios, the multiple rooms, I'm in the studios, the multiple rooms, I'm in the studios, the multiple rooms, I mean 10 rooms of equipment and all the I mean 10 rooms of equipment and all the I mean 10 rooms of equipment and all the things that that made it happen where things that that made it happen where things that that made it happen where you've got you've got, you know, people you've got you've got, you know, people you've got you've got, you know, people in Asia speaking Mandarin translated in Asia speaking Mandarin translated in Asia speaking Mandarin translated into English then translated into 86 into English then translated into 86 into English then translated into 86 languages all life, right? So it it was languages all life, right? So it it was languages all life, right? So it it was a technological play and a technological a technological play and a technological a technological play and a technological miracle. And those leaders that made miracle. And those leaders that made miracle. And those leaders that made that happen in that room, when I'm that happen in that room, when I'm that happen in that room, when I'm talking to them the day before, they're talking to them the day before, they're talking to them the day before, they're like, "We think we can do it." You know, like, "We think we can do it." You know, like, "We think we can do it." You know, so so so >> I remember touring it. You took us >> I remember touring it. You took us >> I remember touring it. You took us backstage and your team took us backstage and your team took us backstage and your team took us backstage and I saw the room with the backstage and I saw the room with the backstage and I saw the room with the bank of literally MacBooks bank of literally MacBooks bank of literally MacBooks >> in a semicircle or a circle >> in a semicircle or a circle >> in a semicircle or a circle >> and you're like, we think this is going >> and you're like, we think this is going >> and you're like, we think this is going to work and like we're going live the to work and like we're going live the to work and like we're going live the next day.

next day. next day. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was but I just, >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was but I just, >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was but I just, you know, rarely in my life and ministry you know, rarely in my life and ministry you know, rarely in my life and ministry do I feel this way, but I do feel it. Um do I feel this way, but I do feel it. Um do I feel this way, but I do feel it. Um where I absolutely know something is where I absolutely know something is where I absolutely know something is from God. I I often I I would say daily from God. I I often I I would say daily from God. I I often I I would say daily I feel like the Lord speaks in my life I feel like the Lord speaks in my life I feel like the Lord speaks in my life and gives me direction and and clarity and gives me direction and and clarity and gives me direction and and clarity and I'm so grateful for that. But for and I'm so grateful for that. But for and I'm so grateful for that. But for someone to say, I know it's from God. someone to say, I know it's from God. someone to say, I know it's from God. Like that, that is a lot of confidence. Like that, that is a lot of confidence. Like that, that is a lot of confidence. And I would say he made it clear from And I would say he made it clear from And I would say he made it clear from that dream to other people's dreams in that dream to other people's dreams in that dream to other people's dreams in great detail that mirrored mine who who great detail that mirrored mine who who great detail that mirrored mine who who had never heard mine. Um that he did a had never heard mine. Um that he did a had never heard mine. Um that he did a lot of work uh spiritually, lot of work uh spiritually, lot of work uh spiritually, supernaturally to be sure that I knew supernaturally to be sure that I knew supernaturally to be sure that I knew that this I was supposed to do this. And that this I was supposed to do this. And that this I was supposed to do this. And I don't even know all the reasons yet. I I don't even know all the reasons yet. I I don't even know all the reasons yet. I mean, we're about to do it again in 27 mean, we're about to do it again in 27 mean, we're about to do it again in 27 and I'm excited about that. But but this and I'm excited about that. But but this and I'm excited about that. But but this is a a story of, you know, we'll see in is a a story of, you know, we'll see in is a a story of, you know, we'll see in heaven, you know, we'll see in heaven heaven, you know, we'll see in heaven heaven, you know, we'll see in heaven all all the reasons that the global all all the reasons that the global all all the reasons that the global church should gather. But I'm really church should gather. But I'm really church should gather. But I'm really excited. We have so many good friends excited. We have so many good friends excited. We have so many good friends around the world that that made that around the world that that made that around the world that that made that happen that they're open their churches happen that they're open their churches happen that they're open their churches that open their rolodexes to help us in that open their rolodexes to help us in that open their rolodexes to help us in those continents. Um, it really is fun those continents. Um, it really is fun those continents. Um, it really is fun to work together on such a big group to work together on such a big group to work together on such a big group project because it was it took a lot of project because it was it took a lot of project because it was it took a lot of help, a lot of people.

help, a lot of people. help, a lot of people. >> So, leadership always comes with a cost >> So, leadership always comes with a cost >> So, leadership always comes with a cost and I believe the plan was after Gather and I believe the plan was after Gather and I believe the plan was after Gather 25, you were going to take a sbatical in 25, you were going to take a sbatical in 25, you were going to take a sbatical in the summer and then we bumped into each the summer and then we bumped into each the summer and then we bumped into each other at an event uh a few months ago other at an event uh a few months ago other at an event uh a few months ago and you're like, "Yeah, the sbatical and you're like, "Yeah, the sbatical and you're like, "Yeah, the sbatical didn't happen." And it turned out to be didn't happen." And it turned out to be didn't happen." And it turned out to be I had a very different 2025. I got sick, I had a very different 2025. I got sick, I had a very different 2025. I got sick, ended up in the hospital. I'm better ended up in the hospital. I'm better ended up in the hospital. I'm better now. I'm so grateful for that. But man, now. I'm so grateful for that. But man, now. I'm so grateful for that. But man, that was a long road back. And you know, that was a long road back. And you know, that was a long road back. And you know, you didn't have a medical thing from my you didn't have a medical thing from my you didn't have a medical thing from my understanding. But talk about the cost understanding. But talk about the cost understanding. But talk about the cost of leadership. You did. Okay. of leadership. You did. Okay. of leadership. You did. Okay. >> We had we had an everything problem. >> We had we had an everything problem. >> We had we had an everything problem. >> You had an everything. Okay. So, let's >> You had an everything. Okay. So, let's >> You had an everything. Okay. So, let's let's go. What What happened? let's go. What What happened? let's go. What What happened? >> So, right. So, you know, that was >> So, right. So, you know, that was >> So, right. So, you know, that was costly. I felt like I ran a marathon and costly. I felt like I ran a marathon and costly. I felt like I ran a marathon and I got to the end of it and it was, "Oh, I got to the end of it and it was, "Oh, I got to the end of it and it was, "Oh, you're not going to run a marathon. you're not going to run a marathon. you're not going to run a marathon. You're going to run an iron man. So, get You're going to run an iron man. So, get You're going to run an iron man. So, get on your bike." you know, and and it was on your bike." you know, and and it was on your bike." you know, and and it was I had to just submit to what God had me I had to just submit to what God had me I had to just submit to what God had me in for that season. And praise God, I in for that season. And praise God, I in for that season. And praise God, I had blocked my calendar because it was had blocked my calendar because it was had blocked my calendar because it was my husband's health so so bad that we my husband's health so so bad that we my husband's health so so bad that we were we couldn't leave our city because were we couldn't leave our city because were we couldn't leave our city because of the healthcare that we had here and of the healthcare that we had here and of the healthcare that we had here and the amount of testing and how scary it the amount of testing and how scary it the amount of testing and how scary it was what he was going through. And so we was what he was going through. And so we was what he was going through. And so we were here all summer for him. And then I were here all summer for him. And then I were here all summer for him. And then I went through three rounds of um testing went through three rounds of um testing went through three rounds of um testing for cancer including biopsy and that was

for cancer including biopsy and that was for cancer including biopsy and that was happening the same time. He's in the we happening the same time. He's in the we happening the same time. He's in the we had doctor's appointments every day. My had doctor's appointments every day. My had doctor's appointments every day. My husband they or my son my oldest son I husband they or my son my oldest son I husband they or my son my oldest son I think has lep uh epilepsy and so we're think has lep uh epilepsy and so we're think has lep uh epilepsy and so we're doing testing for him. my um my daughter doing testing for him. my um my daughter doing testing for him. my um my daughter is going through massive health health is going through massive health health is going through massive health health issues and then issues and then issues and then >> we had and that's just the beginning. I >> we had and that's just the beginning. I >> we had and that's just the beginning. I mean I could go all day and I don't want mean I could go all day and I don't want mean I could go all day and I don't want to make everybody just feel depressed to make everybody just feel depressed to make everybody just feel depressed but but but >> work was really hard. Uh my I had to >> work was really hard. Uh my I had to >> work was really hard. Uh my I had to rewrite a book I was working this book rewrite a book I was working this book rewrite a book I was working this book that we'll talk about today. that we'll talk about today. that we'll talk about today. >> I had to rewrite it this summer. I was >> I had to rewrite it this summer. I was >> I had to rewrite it this summer. I was supposed to be done before the summer supposed to be done before the summer supposed to be done before the summer but I but I but I >> because of editing and just not feeling >> because of editing and just not feeling >> because of editing and just not feeling like it was right yet. I I entered a like it was right yet. I I entered a like it was right yet. I I entered a whole another season of writing for the whole another season of writing for the whole another season of writing for the summer. my organization was summer. my organization was summer. my organization was transitioning because after gather we transitioning because after gather we transitioning because after gather we had to rebuild it and just who are we had to rebuild it and just who are we had to rebuild it and just who are we going to be and what are we going to going to be and what are we going to going to be and what are we going to accomplish and what are we going to do accomplish and what are we going to do accomplish and what are we going to do together for the gospel and and so all together for the gospel and and so all together for the gospel and and so all of that was in transition and then um of that was in transition and then um of that was in transition and then um then there were some other things that I then there were some other things that I then there were some other things that I just can't share that were just can't share that were just can't share that were >> the hardest things you know the hardest >> the hardest things you know the hardest >> the hardest things you know the hardest things you never can share and so things you never can share and so things you never can share and so >> yeah I mean there was no doubt at some >> yeah I mean there was no doubt at some >> yeah I mean there was no doubt at some point when my dog it was my dog my dog point when my dog it was my dog my dog point when my dog it was my dog my dog um um um >> almost died and the day that that >> almost died and the day that that >> almost died and the day that that happened and she's only three years old happened and she's only three years old happened and she's only three years old and that she she got into dark and that she she got into dark and that she she got into dark chocolate, an entire thing of it. She's chocolate, an entire thing of it. She's chocolate, an entire thing of it. She's never done that before. When that never done that before. When that never done that before. When that happened in the middle of the summer, I happened in the middle of the summer, I happened in the middle of the summer, I called I was like, "Oh, this is this is called I was like, "Oh, this is this is called I was like, "Oh, this is this is spiritual." For some reason, it wasn't spiritual." For some reason, it wasn't spiritual." For some reason, it wasn't like the 100 other things.

like the 100 other things. like the 100 other things. >> It was the fact that now like you're >> It was the fact that now like you're >> It was the fact that now like you're messing with my dog, Satan. Like, get messing with my dog, Satan. Like, get messing with my dog, Satan. Like, get back. Like, no. So I I you know I called back. Like, no. So I I you know I called back. Like, no. So I I you know I called one of the people that is a spiritual one of the people that is a spiritual one of the people that is a spiritual mentor in my life and we prayed together mentor in my life and we prayed together mentor in my life and we prayed together and and it was the beginning of of and and it was the beginning of of and and it was the beginning of of really recognizing like oh no this is really recognizing like oh no this is really recognizing like oh no this is spiritual Jenny spiritual Jenny spiritual Jenny >> and we've got to we've got to pray and >> and we've got to we've got to pray and >> and we've got to we've got to pray and and it was it's hard you know I still and it was it's hard you know I still and it was it's hard you know I still feel um the the repercussions of that feel um the the repercussions of that feel um the the repercussions of that but I do see it differently because all but I do see it differently because all but I do see it differently because all summer summer summer >> all summer I felt abandoned. I felt used >> all summer I felt abandoned. I felt used >> all summer I felt abandoned. I felt used by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm by God. I thought, "Wow, when when I'm leading something that's impacting the leading something that's impacting the leading something that's impacting the world, I feel protected. I feel held up. world, I feel protected. I feel held up. world, I feel protected. I feel held up. I feel provision." I mean, not to I feel provision." I mean, not to I feel provision." I mean, not to mention, we were on college campuses mention, we were on college campuses mention, we were on college campuses every every week almost in the middle of every every week almost in the middle of every every week almost in the middle of the semester. Um, we were watching the semester. Um, we were watching the semester. Um, we were watching thousands and thousands of kids come to thousands and thousands of kids come to thousands and thousands of kids come to Jesus at the same time. We were we were Jesus at the same time. We were we were Jesus at the same time. We were we were watching I was watching ministry left watching I was watching ministry left watching I was watching ministry left and right in every sphere I was in, like and right in every sphere I was in, like and right in every sphere I was in, like miraculous ministry. then it's time to miraculous ministry. then it's time to miraculous ministry. then it's time to rest and then all hell breaks loose.

rest and then all hell breaks loose. rest and then all hell breaks loose. Like it felt like God disappeared. It Like it felt like God disappeared. It Like it felt like God disappeared. It felt like all my protection disappeared felt like all my protection disappeared felt like all my protection disappeared and I wasn't useful. and I wasn't useful. and I wasn't useful. And so where did he go? And I I And so where did he go? And I I And so where did he go? And I I struggled with God. Like I was angry. I struggled with God. Like I was angry. I struggled with God. Like I was angry. I was I felt abandoned. I felt was I felt abandoned. I felt was I felt abandoned. I felt um I don't know. I just felt like he um I don't know. I just felt like he um I don't know. I just felt like he he didn't care about me. Cared what I he didn't care about me. Cared what I he didn't care about me. Cared what I could do for him. And could do for him. And could do for him. And it was hard. It was really hard because it was hard. It was really hard because it was hard. It was really hard because it just felt so obviously I felt such it just felt so obviously I felt such it just felt so obviously I felt such supernatural favor and protection as I supernatural favor and protection as I supernatural favor and protection as I was ministering so hard. And then I felt was ministering so hard. And then I felt was ministering so hard. And then I felt the exact opposite when I stopped. And the exact opposite when I stopped. And the exact opposite when I stopped. And so so so it was so cool how God spoke to me. And it was so cool how God spoke to me. And it was so cool how God spoke to me. And it was, you know, I was the end of the it was, you know, I was the end of the it was, you know, I was the end of the summer. I was with some of my summer. I was with some of my summer. I was with some of my girlfriends and one of them is telling a girlfriends and one of them is telling a girlfriends and one of them is telling a story about her house and how her house story about her house and how her house story about her house and how her house was a gift from God after a really hard was a gift from God after a really hard was a gift from God after a really hard divorce and it was affordable and it was divorce and it was affordable and it was divorce and it was affordable and it was just right and friends flooded it and just right and friends flooded it and just right and friends flooded it and helped furnish it and it just felt like helped furnish it and it just felt like helped furnish it and it just felt like a gift from God. And then a couple years a gift from God. And then a couple years a gift from God. And then a couple years later she has a flood and there's mold later she has a flood and there's mold later she has a flood and there's mold and and her little girl looks at her and and and her little girl looks at her and and and her little girl looks at her and says, "I hate this house and I wish we says, "I hate this house and I wish we says, "I hate this house and I wish we didn't live here and I want to move."

didn't live here and I want to move." didn't live here and I want to move." And my friend just stopped and was like, And my friend just stopped and was like, And my friend just stopped and was like, you know, this house is from God and and you know, this house is from God and and you know, this house is from God and and let's remember all the ways that he's let's remember all the ways that he's let's remember all the ways that he's taking care of us. And and it made me taking care of us. And and it made me taking care of us. And and it made me cry and I walked out. Had nothing to do cry and I walked out. Had nothing to do cry and I walked out. Had nothing to do with me. She wasn't telling it to me to with me. She wasn't telling it to me to with me. She wasn't telling it to me to convict me or make me see things convict me or make me see things convict me or make me see things differently, but the Lord was telling it differently, but the Lord was telling it differently, but the Lord was telling it to me. And I went on a walk after that to me. And I went on a walk after that to me. And I went on a walk after that and I just prayed out loud and I was and I just prayed out loud and I was and I just prayed out loud and I was like, "God," you know, I just told him like, "God," you know, I just told him like, "God," you know, I just told him how I felt and and I felt like he said, how I felt and and I felt like he said, how I felt and and I felt like he said, "Jenny, look at your life. your husband "Jenny, look at your life. your husband "Jenny, look at your life. your husband is alive. Your son is okay. You didn't is alive. Your son is okay. You didn't is alive. Your son is okay. You didn't have cancer. have cancer. have cancer. Your dog is alive. Your dog is alive. Your dog is alive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And we could go down the list and some >> And we could go down the list and some >> And we could go down the list and some of those things are not resolved, right? of those things are not resolved, right? of those things are not resolved, right? Some of the things I can't share are not Some of the things I can't share are not Some of the things I can't share are not resolved. resolved. resolved. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But all what I pictured, he was like, I >> But all what I pictured, he was like, I >> But all what I pictured, he was like, I wasn't I didn't leave you. I was laid wasn't I didn't leave you. I was laid wasn't I didn't leave you. I was laid down on top of you while all the bombs down on top of you while all the bombs down on top of you while all the bombs went off and I had you and I wasn't went off and I had you and I wasn't went off and I had you and I wasn't going to let anything happen to you. And going to let anything happen to you. And going to let anything happen to you. And I'm not saying that. I mean, I could I'm not saying that. I mean, I could I'm not saying that. I mean, I could have had cancer and the same was true, have had cancer and the same was true, have had cancer and the same was true, right?

right? right? >> But >> But >> But I just I saw it differently, you know? I I just I saw it differently, you know? I I just I saw it differently, you know? I saw instead of him running and going to saw instead of him running and going to saw instead of him running and going to the next person doing something great, I the next person doing something great, I the next person doing something great, I saw him like, I'm not leaving. But I saw him like, I'm not leaving. But I saw him like, I'm not leaving. But I also saw, but the bombs are going to go also saw, but the bombs are going to go also saw, but the bombs are going to go off. Like, you're not gonna be protected off. Like, you're not gonna be protected off. Like, you're not gonna be protected from the hardship from the hardship from the hardship >> and and the shrapnel of that, right? >> and and the shrapnel of that, right? >> and and the shrapnel of that, right? because it does cost and and there's no because it does cost and and there's no because it does cost and and there's no there's just there's just there's just you know and and I don't I don't want you know and and I don't I don't want you know and and I don't I don't want another another another place to be than in his will which I was place to be than in his will which I was place to be than in his will which I was I was this summer. I was this summer. I was this summer. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I was standing on a stage in front of >> I was standing on a stage in front of >> I was standing on a stage in front of millions. I millions. I millions. I >> I was like I was in the will of God and >> I was like I was in the will of God and >> I was like I was in the will of God and it was hard. it was hard. it was hard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the enemy came, I think, in special, And the enemy came, I think, in special, And the enemy came, I think, in special, you know, in special form. I I I really you know, in special form. I I I really you know, in special form. I I I really do. And I'm not alone in that, right?

do. And I'm not alone in that, right? do. And I'm not alone in that, right? Like everybody listening is is someone Like everybody listening is is someone Like everybody listening is is someone in leadership or or leading something in in leadership or or leading something in in leadership or or leading something in their small space or in a huge space. their small space or in a huge space. their small space or in a huge space. And And And he's, you know, the enemy comes and and he's, you know, the enemy comes and and he's, you know, the enemy comes and and >> and yet there's protection. And I've >> and yet there's protection. And I've >> and yet there's protection. And I've learned a lot about spiritual warfare learned a lot about spiritual warfare learned a lot about spiritual warfare through this because I I I think I would through this because I I I think I would through this because I I I think I would have thought spiritual protection was have thought spiritual protection was have thought spiritual protection was we'll just keep it way back like we'll just keep it way back like we'll just keep it way back like >> Exactly. I'm not going to get sick. I'm >> Exactly. I'm not going to get sick. I'm >> Exactly. I'm not going to get sick. I'm not Nothing's going to happen to my not Nothing's going to happen to my not Nothing's going to happen to my family, family, family, >> right? Build a bigger perimeter. Like >> right? Build a bigger perimeter. Like >> right? Build a bigger perimeter. Like let the bombs go off like a across a let the bombs go off like a across a let the bombs go off like a across a little further, you know? little further, you know? little further, you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But >> But >> But >> but yeah, there there's there is a war >> but yeah, there there's there is a war >> but yeah, there there's there is a war and we're rack right smack dab in the and we're rack right smack dab in the and we're rack right smack dab in the middle of it. the more we obey God. middle of it. the more we obey God. middle of it. the more we obey God. >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my Fund the Future Master Class. So, you Fund the Future Master Class. So, you Fund the Future Master Class. So, you cast vision every week as a pastor. You cast vision every week as a pastor. You cast vision every week as a pastor. You preach with clarity, but when it comes preach with clarity, but when it comes preach with clarity, but when it comes to funding your church, a lot of leaders to funding your church, a lot of leaders to funding your church, a lot of leaders hit a wall. And if that's you, I want hit a wall. And if that's you, I want hit a wall. And if that's you, I want you to know it's not your fault. You've you to know it's not your fault. You've you to know it's not your fault. You've been doing the work probably without a been doing the work probably without a been doing the work probably without a proven framework to grow generosity, proven framework to grow generosity, proven framework to grow generosity, fuel vision, or even fully fund your fuel vision, or even fully fund your fuel vision, or even fully fund your ministry. And that's exactly why I ministry. And that's exactly why I ministry. And that's exactly why I teamed up with some of today's top teamed up with some of today's top teamed up with some of today's top leaders, people you know who have been leaders, people you know who have been leaders, people you know who have been on this podcast who bring you the Fund on this podcast who bring you the Fund on this podcast who bring you the Fund the Future Master Class. Inside this the Future Master Class. Inside this the Future Master Class. Inside this program, you're going to learn from program, you're going to learn from program, you're going to learn from Craig Rashelle. Craig's going to help Craig Rashelle. Craig's going to help Craig Rashelle. Craig's going to help you think bigger and believe God for you think bigger and believe God for you think bigger and believe God for more. You'll hear from Chris Hodgeges, more. You'll hear from Chris Hodgeges, more. You'll hear from Chris Hodgeges, who breaks down how to cast vision and who breaks down how to cast vision and who breaks down how to cast vision and confidently invite people to invest.

confidently invite people to invest. confidently invite people to invest. You're going to hear from Ashley Wridge You're going to hear from Ashley Wridge You're going to hear from Ashley Wridge who teaches the keys to making who teaches the keys to making who teaches the keys to making generosity part of your church's DNA. generosity part of your church's DNA. generosity part of your church's DNA. And you'll hear from Dan Clark on And you'll hear from Dan Clark on And you'll hear from Dan Clark on engaging major donors. And you're going engaging major donors. And you're going engaging major donors. And you're going to hear from me, too. These are real to hear from me, too. These are real to hear from me, too. These are real actionable strategies you can put into actionable strategies you can put into actionable strategies you can put into practice as you work through the course. practice as you work through the course. practice as you work through the course. So, if you are tired of feeling awkward So, if you are tired of feeling awkward So, if you are tired of feeling awkward about funding the mission, talking about about funding the mission, talking about about funding the mission, talking about money, and you're ready to lead boldly money, and you're ready to lead boldly money, and you're ready to lead boldly into the future, check it out today. into the future, check it out today. into the future, check it out today. Click the link in the description to Click the link in the description to Click the link in the description to this episode wherever you're listening this episode wherever you're listening this episode wherever you're listening or watching to learn more about my Fund or watching to learn more about my Fund or watching to learn more about my Fund the Future Master Class. This episode is the Future Master Class. This episode is the Future Master Class. This episode is brought to you by Switcher Studio. Do brought to you by Switcher Studio. Do brought to you by Switcher Studio. Do you want to take your church's live you want to take your church's live you want to take your church's live stream to the next level, especially as stream to the next level, especially as stream to the next level, especially as you head into Easter? Switcher makes it you head into Easter? Switcher makes it you head into Easter? Switcher makes it simple. It lets you grab your iPhones, simple. It lets you grab your iPhones, simple. It lets you grab your iPhones, iPads, cameras, sync them all together, iPads, cameras, sync them all together, iPads, cameras, sync them all together, and switch between angles live without and switch between angles live without and switch between angles live without expensive, complicated gear. You can add expensive, complicated gear. You can add expensive, complicated gear. You can add scripture, lyrics, and graphics on scripture, lyrics, and graphics on scripture, lyrics, and graphics on screen to help your congregation engage screen to help your congregation engage screen to help your congregation engage whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter service with more guests tuning in. And service with more guests tuning in. And service with more guests tuning in. And then you can stream to your website and then you can stream to your website and then you can stream to your website and all the major social media platforms at all the major social media platforms at all the major social media platforms at the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy enough for pastors, volunteers, or even enough for pastors, volunteers, or even enough for pastors, volunteers, or even students to jump in and run the stream.

students to jump in and run the stream. students to jump in and run the stream. Probably especially students, right? Probably especially students, right? Probably especially students, right? They're sharp. All in all, Switcher They're sharp. All in all, Switcher They're sharp. All in all, Switcher helps you empower your volunteers, helps you empower your volunteers, helps you empower your volunteers, produce a polished online presence, and produce a polished online presence, and produce a polished online presence, and grow your community without a big grow your community without a big grow your community without a big budget. And you can get an additional $5 budget. And you can get an additional $5 budget. And you can get an additional $5 off at checkout when you use the code off at checkout when you use the code off at checkout when you use the code carry 5. So visit switcherstudio.com carry 5. So visit switcherstudio.com carry 5. So visit switcherstudio.com to learn more. That's to learn more. That's to learn more. That's switcherstudio.com. switcherstudio.com. switcherstudio.com. I so appreciate you sharing that and I I so appreciate you sharing that and I I so appreciate you sharing that and I totally understand there are things you totally understand there are things you totally understand there are things you can't share. can't share. can't share. I'm resonating with it. uh you know I'm resonating with it. uh you know I'm resonating with it. uh you know because I was only in the hospital for because I was only in the hospital for because I was only in the hospital for two days but it was six seven months of two days but it was six seven months of two days but it was six seven months of treatment and then not getting like treatment and then not getting like treatment and then not getting like getting better after the treatment but getting better after the treatment but getting better after the treatment but side effects it just went on forever and side effects it just went on forever and side effects it just went on forever and ever and ever and I was getting so ever and ever and I was getting so ever and ever and I was getting so frustrated and so impatient and that and frustrated and so impatient and that and frustrated and so impatient and that and I've talked about it enough on this I've talked about it enough on this I've talked about it enough on this podcast but you know after 29 stressors podcast but you know after 29 stressors podcast but you know after 29 stressors in 14 months from parents going into uh in 14 months from parents going into uh in 14 months from parents going into uh you know uh retirement facilities to uh you know uh retirement facilities to uh you know uh retirement facilities to uh an ice storm that took out my backyard an ice storm that took out my backyard an ice storm that took out my backyard which was my paradise. I just I there which was my paradise. I just I there which was my paradise. I just I there were moments and I wonder if you felt were moments and I wonder if you felt were moments and I wonder if you felt this this summer where you thought am I this this summer where you thought am I this this summer where you thought am I in the book of Job? Like is this is this in the book of Job? Like is this is this in the book of Job? Like is this is this it? And what am I doing wrong? And I was it? And what am I doing wrong? And I was it? And what am I doing wrong? And I was mad at God for a while. It's like no mad at God for a while. It's like no mad at God for a while. It's like no this was like I understand in my 80s I'd this was like I understand in my 80s I'd this was like I understand in my 80s I'd have some health challenges but like have some health challenges but like have some health challenges but like this is way too soon. Way too soon.

this is way too soon. Way too soon. this is way too soon. Way too soon. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I I you know my counselor really >> And I I you know my counselor really >> And I I you know my counselor really helped me Dr. Chappelle who either was helped me Dr. Chappelle who either was helped me Dr. Chappelle who either was just on or will be on this podcast with just on or will be on this podcast with just on or will be on this podcast with with Craig Gashelle. uh we share a with Craig Gashelle. uh we share a with Craig Gashelle. uh we share a counselor was so helpful in just saying counselor was so helpful in just saying counselor was so helpful in just saying where's God in the middle of this and where's God in the middle of this and where's God in the middle of this and I'm I'm still coming to terms with that I'm I'm still coming to terms with that I'm I'm still coming to terms with that because my life is you do something because my life is you do something because my life is you do something great for God and then you go have a great for God and then you go have a great for God and then you go have a nice sbatical and you go rest and you nice sbatical and you go rest and you nice sbatical and you go rest and you feel wonderful and nothing bad happens feel wonderful and nothing bad happens feel wonderful and nothing bad happens right and I had a good 30-year run right and I had a good 30-year run right and I had a good 30-year run without a lot of setbacks and without a lot of setbacks and without a lot of setbacks and >> yeah how are you processing that because >> yeah how are you processing that because >> yeah how are you processing that because I think your experience and my I think your experience and my I think your experience and my experience is pretty normal that people experience is pretty normal that people experience is pretty normal that people do great things and And there's great do great things and And there's great do great things and And there's great suffering sometimes. suffering sometimes. suffering sometimes. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's suffering everywhere. I should be really suffering everywhere. I should be really suffering everywhere. I should be really clear about that. I don't think um clear about that. I don't think um clear about that. I don't think um anyone escapes it, right? This is in anyone escapes it, right? This is in anyone escapes it, right? This is in this world. We're going to have trouble this world. We're going to have trouble this world. We're going to have trouble and all of us will have it. and all of us will have it. and all of us will have it. >> I think when it when it became clear >> I think when it when it became clear >> I think when it when it became clear that it was spiritual was when it was that it was spiritual was when it was that it was spiritual was when it was wave after wave after wave and some many wave after wave after wave and some many wave after wave after wave and some many of them were confusing and did not make of them were confusing and did not make of them were confusing and did not make sense.

sense. sense. >> Okay. um that were that were not just it >> Okay. um that were that were not just it >> Okay. um that were that were not just it it was every week and it was systematic it was every week and it was systematic it was every week and it was systematic and it was every you know that verse I and it was every you know that verse I and it was every you know that verse I that verse that says hardpressed from that verse that says hardpressed from that verse that says hardpressed from every side. I I used to think that verse every side. I I used to think that verse every side. I I used to think that verse meant like I have four sides, you know, meant like I have four sides, you know, meant like I have four sides, you know, like hardpressed from all four sides. like hardpressed from all four sides. like hardpressed from all four sides. And I was like, I have apparently I have And I was like, I have apparently I have And I was like, I have apparently I have many endless sides because it wasn't many endless sides because it wasn't many endless sides because it wasn't just work, it wasn't just health, it just work, it wasn't just health, it just work, it wasn't just health, it wasn't just family, it wasn't just, you wasn't just family, it wasn't just, you wasn't just family, it wasn't just, you know, people I love struggling with know, people I love struggling with know, people I love struggling with addiction. It wasn't just, addiction. It wasn't just, addiction. It wasn't just, >> you know, it w it was friends. It was >> you know, it w it was friends. It was >> you know, it w it was friends. It was every I was like, "Holy, like, we got every I was like, "Holy, like, we got every I was like, "Holy, like, we got lots of sides of us." Um, I didn't know lots of sides of us." Um, I didn't know lots of sides of us." Um, I didn't know I could be pressed on this many. Um so I could be pressed on this many. Um so I could be pressed on this many. Um so what I would say is my takeaway from what I would say is my takeaway from what I would say is my takeaway from this is a few things. Number one in this this is a few things. Number one in this this is a few things. Number one in this world we will have trouble. Some things world we will have trouble. Some things world we will have trouble. Some things are just the fall. There is just a are just the fall. There is just a are just the fall. There is just a natural progression to our bodies natural progression to our bodies natural progression to our bodies failing us to our um our you know failing us to our um our you know failing us to our um our you know pressures that we will face and our job pressures that we will face and our job pressures that we will face and our job being toil and thorns and thistles.

being toil and thorns and thistles. being toil and thorns and thistles. Right? So there there's a lot of just Right? So there there's a lot of just Right? So there there's a lot of just written into the fall was some pretty written into the fall was some pretty written into the fall was some pretty difficult, relational difficult, relational difficult, relational realities, work realities and physical realities, work realities and physical realities, work realities and physical realities to our lives. realities to our lives. realities to our lives. >> Then there is strategy and we know this >> Then there is strategy and we know this >> Then there is strategy and we know this from the enemy that there is a schemer from the enemy that there is a schemer from the enemy that there is a schemer and he he he's smart and he's been and he he he's smart and he's been and he he he's smart and he's been around longer than us, right? Yeah. And around longer than us, right? Yeah. And around longer than us, right? Yeah. And he and he knows the human condition and he and he knows the human condition and he and he knows the human condition and he he plots and he plans and he hits at he he plots and he plans and he hits at he he plots and he plans and he hits at the right moment. So of course he hit the right moment. So of course he hit the right moment. So of course he hit me, right? He he saved it all. Like he me, right? He he saved it all. Like he me, right? He he saved it all. Like he he pulled all the bullets out when we he pulled all the bullets out when we he pulled all the bullets out when we were headed to rest because we would be were headed to rest because we would be were headed to rest because we would be vulnerable because we would be tired vulnerable because we would be tired vulnerable because we would be tired because we would be sad because we would because we would be sad because we would because we would be sad because we would feel abandoned. feel abandoned. feel abandoned. >> But he had a goal. And his goal was not >> But he had a goal. And his goal was not >> But he had a goal. And his goal was not just torture. His goal was that I would just torture. His goal was that I would just torture. His goal was that I would doubt God and that I would quit and that doubt God and that I would quit and that doubt God and that I would quit and that I would pull away from my intimacy with I would pull away from my intimacy with I would pull away from my intimacy with Jesus. And I did. And I did all of that Jesus. And I did. And I did all of that Jesus. And I did. And I did all of that for the summer. Like I I was hurting. I for the summer. Like I I was hurting. I for the summer. Like I I was hurting. I was I was angry.

was I was angry. was I was angry. >> Were you ready to quit? >> Were you ready to quit? >> Were you ready to quit? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> No, I've been there. >> No, I've been there. >> No, I've been there. >> I mean, yeah. I Oh, for sure. But but >> I mean, yeah. I Oh, for sure. But but >> I mean, yeah. I Oh, for sure. But but not out of like not out of like not out of like not out of I'm so tired. I can't do this not out of I'm so tired. I can't do this not out of I'm so tired. I can't do this anymore. That wasn't my feeling this anymore. That wasn't my feeling this anymore. That wasn't my feeling this summer. My feeling this summer was summer. My feeling this summer was summer. My feeling this summer was God today is calling me to more like a God today is calling me to more like a God today is calling me to more like a lot more, lot more, lot more, >> which >> which >> which I'm that's saying something. You know, I'm that's saying something. You know, I'm that's saying something. You know, >> it is saying something. You You've done >> it is saying something. You You've done >> it is saying something. You You've done a lot. a lot. a lot. >> I've been on the front lines in a few >> I've been on the front lines in a few >> I've been on the front lines in a few ways in the last few years. And and when ways in the last few years. And and when ways in the last few years. And and when he did, like there was a specific day he did, like there was a specific day he did, like there was a specific day where it all was just clarified and I where it all was just clarified and I where it all was just clarified and I was like, I know what lovers I'm was like, I know what lovers I'm was like, I know what lovers I'm supposed to I know what I'm supposed to supposed to I know what I'm supposed to supposed to I know what I'm supposed to do. And and it felt I'd been waiting and do. And and it felt I'd been waiting and do. And and it felt I'd been waiting and waiting and I hadn't I hadn't known and waiting and I hadn't I hadn't known and waiting and I hadn't I hadn't known and then I did. And and today what it feels then I did. And and today what it feels then I did. And and today what it feels like is like is like is a a a it's almost like what it does to you is it's almost like what it does to you is it's almost like what it does to you is you're like I I am too compelled you're like I I am too compelled you're like I I am too compelled by heaven by heaven by heaven and Jesus and Jesus and Jesus to quit.

to quit. to quit. Period. Okay. Period. Okay. Period. Okay. >> I'm going to say that with a period. >> I'm going to say that with a period. >> I'm going to say that with a period. And And And what it feels like is my arm is above my what it feels like is my arm is above my what it feels like is my arm is above my head and head and head and and I'm taking a deep breath and I'm and I'm taking a deep breath and I'm and I'm taking a deep breath and I'm I'm so aware of like to go back in like I'm so aware of like to go back in like I'm so aware of like to go back in like what what I'm signing up for and and where else am I going to go? And I want to I want I I you know the And I want to I want I I you know the the problem with me the problem with me the problem with me >> is >> is >> is >> I'm so sure it's all real. I haven't >> I'm so sure it's all real. I haven't >> I'm so sure it's all real. I haven't always been. always been. always been. >> I've had seasons of doubt that I wasn't, >> I've had seasons of doubt that I wasn't, >> I've had seasons of doubt that I wasn't, but I'm so sure he's real. I'm so sure but I'm so sure he's real. I'm so sure but I'm so sure he's real. I'm so sure heaven is coming. I'm so sure there's a heaven is coming. I'm so sure there's a heaven is coming. I'm so sure there's a hell. I'm so sure that I have things hell. I'm so sure that I have things hell. I'm so sure that I have things that could help. I I I I I that could help. I I I I I that could help. I I I I I want to do this and heaven will be here want to do this and heaven will be here want to do this and heaven will be here soon. You know, I just one of the things soon. You know, I just one of the things soon. You know, I just one of the things I wrote about in this book through this I wrote about in this book through this I wrote about in this book through this season I had to write as I'm suffering season I had to write as I'm suffering season I had to write as I'm suffering and was it was a part called five or 40 and was it was a part called five or 40 and was it was a part called five or 40 and it was a devotion I was having one and it was a devotion I was having one and it was a devotion I was having one morning in Philippians and it was you morning in Philippians and it was you morning in Philippians and it was you know to die is to to gain and to live is know to die is to to gain and to live is know to die is to to gain and to live is Christ and I was like okay I could go Christ and I was like okay I could go Christ and I was like okay I could go home you know me too. It was like, yeah,

home you know me too. It was like, yeah, home you know me too. It was like, yeah, to die is not a doesn't seem bad to die is not a doesn't seem bad to die is not a doesn't seem bad anymore. anymore. anymore. >> That didn't feel like the worst option. >> That didn't feel like the worst option. >> That didn't feel like the worst option. Um, Um, Um, >> and I and I'm sitting there with the >> and I and I'm sitting there with the >> and I and I'm sitting there with the doctor saying like it looks like cancer, doctor saying like it looks like cancer, doctor saying like it looks like cancer, you know, let's, you know, as my husband you know, let's, you know, as my husband you know, let's, you know, as my husband is possibly, you know, like this close is possibly, you know, like this close is possibly, you know, like this close to having a stroke and I mean, and not to having a stroke and I mean, and not to having a stroke and I mean, and not knowing what that would look like. And knowing what that would look like. And knowing what that would look like. And so I'm sitting there going, "Okay, so I'm sitting there going, "Okay, so I'm sitting there going, "Okay, I could live five more years and Zach I could live five more years and Zach I could live five more years and Zach and be caretaking Zach." Um because my and be caretaking Zach." Um because my and be caretaking Zach." Um because my best friend had a stroke. I know I know best friend had a stroke. I know I know best friend had a stroke. I know I know what that looks like. Um I could live 40 what that looks like. Um I could live 40 what that looks like. Um I could live 40 more years and be taking care of Zach. I more years and be taking care of Zach. I more years and be taking care of Zach. I could Zach could be fine and I I die, could Zach could be fine and I I die, could Zach could be fine and I I die, you know? I was like, these were real you know? I was like, these were real you know? I was like, these were real realities, right? From what doctors were realities, right? From what doctors were realities, right? From what doctors were telling us. And I was like, okay. I was telling us. And I was like, okay. I was telling us. And I was like, okay. I was like, how am I going to view this? And like, how am I going to view this? And like, how am I going to view this? And I'm like, "Okay, I can do anything for I'm like, "Okay, I can do anything for I'm like, "Okay, I can do anything for five or 40 years." Like, I I can like five or 40 years." Like, I I can like five or 40 years." Like, I I can like saddle up and do this thing, whatever is saddle up and do this thing, whatever is saddle up and do this thing, whatever is called and necessary for me. And I think called and necessary for me. And I think called and necessary for me. And I think that is just such a better way to live.

that is just such a better way to live. that is just such a better way to live. I know it sounds hard and long, but I've I know it sounds hard and long, but I've I know it sounds hard and long, but I've been through enough now that I'm like, been through enough now that I'm like, been through enough now that I'm like, we would figure it out. God would see us we would figure it out. God would see us we would figure it out. God would see us through. We would have people in our through. We would have people in our through. We would have people in our lives help. Like, we'd figure it out. lives help. Like, we'd figure it out. lives help. Like, we'd figure it out. And I think I think that's where I am And I think I think that's where I am And I think I think that's where I am today is just I it's short. Whatever, today is just I it's short. Whatever, today is just I it's short. Whatever, however long it is, it's short and God's however long it is, it's short and God's however long it is, it's short and God's real and I'm compelled and so I'll do real and I'm compelled and so I'll do real and I'm compelled and so I'll do what he says. But but let me give one what he says. But but let me give one what he says. But but let me give one more secret because this is key like why more secret because this is key like why more secret because this is key like why I can say that and why I'm so at peace I can say that and why I'm so at peace I can say that and why I'm so at peace today today today >> for all of it. The pressure of it all >> for all of it. The pressure of it all >> for all of it. The pressure of it all because that's that's another thing when because that's that's another thing when because that's that's another thing when you're working the pressure of it all. you're working the pressure of it all. you're working the pressure of it all. And I would say this the way I do it is And I would say this the way I do it is And I would say this the way I do it is the day like okay but what did he give the day like okay but what did he give the day like okay but what did he give me today? Zach didn't have a stroke and me today? Zach didn't have a stroke and me today? Zach didn't have a stroke and today, you know, I've I've got enough today, you know, I've I've got enough today, you know, I've I've got enough right in front of me. And so that really right in front of me. And so that really right in front of me. And so that really is how I am navigating all of this is is how I am navigating all of this is is how I am navigating all of this is just do the day really well, as just do the day really well, as just do the day really well, as beautifully as I can, obedient, intimate beautifully as I can, obedient, intimate beautifully as I can, obedient, intimate with Jesus, with Jesus, with Jesus, and see what happens. And he's been and see what happens. And he's been and see what happens. And he's been faithful in that, you know, he's good at faithful in that, you know, he's good at faithful in that, you know, he's good at daily bread.

daily bread. daily bread. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, you probably have >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, you probably have >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, you probably have a lot of empathy for leaders who want to a lot of empathy for leaders who want to a lot of empathy for leaders who want to cash it out. I was looking at the cash it out. I was looking at the cash it out. I was looking at the freshest Bara data in late 2025. You freshest Bara data in late 2025. You freshest Bara data in late 2025. You know that, hey, number of pastors who know that, hey, number of pastors who know that, hey, number of pastors who have given real serious consideration to have given real serious consideration to have given real serious consideration to leaving ministry peaked in 2022 at 42%. leaving ministry peaked in 2022 at 42%. leaving ministry peaked in 2022 at 42%. So, the good news is it's down, but it's So, the good news is it's down, but it's So, the good news is it's down, but it's still at 20. It's at it was 42% at peak. still at 20. It's at it was 42% at peak. still at 20. It's at it was 42% at peak. >> Today, it's still at 24%. So, one in >> Today, it's still at 24%. So, one in >> Today, it's still at 24%. So, one in four people listening to this podcast is four people listening to this podcast is four people listening to this podcast is seriously thinking about seriously thinking about seriously thinking about >> packing it in. >> packing it in. >> packing it in. >> And I've been there. You've been there. >> And I've been there. You've been there. >> And I've been there. You've been there. What? You can understand the thought What? You can understand the thought What? You can understand the thought process. They've been kicked. Maybe not process. They've been kicked. Maybe not process. They've been kicked. Maybe not in the same way you've been kicked, but in the same way you've been kicked, but in the same way you've been kicked, but they've been kicked. they've been kicked. they've been kicked. >> What was the key to you deciding, I'm >> What was the key to you deciding, I'm >> What was the key to you deciding, I'm going to live to see another day. I'm going to live to see another day. I'm going to live to see another day. I'm not going to not going to pack it in. not going to not going to pack it in. not going to not going to pack it in. Well, I think asking the Lord what to do Well, I think asking the Lord what to do Well, I think asking the Lord what to do or not do regularly is important. So, I or not do regularly is important. So, I or not do regularly is important. So, I I would say my husband is was in I would say my husband is was in I would say my husband is was in ministry and is currently in business.

ministry and is currently in business. ministry and is currently in business. He doesn't see it that way. He does the He doesn't see it that way. He does the He doesn't see it that way. He does the exact same thing he did in ministry that exact same thing he did in ministry that exact same thing he did in ministry that he does today, right? Like he he is he does today, right? Like he he is he does today, right? Like he he is mentoring guys and ministering to people mentoring guys and ministering to people mentoring guys and ministering to people and he's doing the same work either way. and he's doing the same work either way. and he's doing the same work either way. So, I don't see a big secular ministry So, I don't see a big secular ministry So, I don't see a big secular ministry divide. But I divide. But I divide. But I understand that there is a need right understand that there is a need right understand that there is a need right now for the people of God to feel now for the people of God to feel now for the people of God to feel compelled compelled compelled to stay and to obey, whatever that is. to stay and to obey, whatever that is. to stay and to obey, whatever that is. >> And and to not >> And and to not >> And and to not walk away walk away walk away because because because it got hard. it got hard. it got hard. >> I mean, I just watched rewatched The >> I mean, I just watched rewatched The >> I mean, I just watched rewatched The Patriot. Patriot. Patriot. >> Oh, yeah. You remember that movie? >> Oh, yeah. You remember that movie? >> Oh, yeah. You remember that movie? >> Yeah, I do. >> Yeah, I do. >> Yeah, I do. >> And >> And >> And I was like, man, I mean, that that war, I was like, man, I mean, that that war, I was like, man, I mean, that that war, like it was just right in front of their like it was just right in front of their like it was just right in front of their front yards, you know, and they were front yards, you know, and they were front yards, you know, and they were sending their boys out to fight and they sending their boys out to fight and they sending their boys out to fight and they were, you know, it just was it was were, you know, it just was it was were, you know, it just was it was rough. It was a rough war, the rough. It was a rough war, the rough. It was a rough war, the Revolutionary War. And and I just think, Revolutionary War. And and I just think, Revolutionary War. And and I just think, you know, they were torn and not you know, they were torn and not you know, they were torn and not everybody went like it was loyal to the everybody went like it was loyal to the everybody went like it was loyal to the crown to stay, you know, not to go crown to stay, you know, not to go crown to stay, you know, not to go fight. And and yet they couldn't help it fight. And and yet they couldn't help it fight. And and yet they couldn't help it because of a cause that was bigger than because of a cause that was bigger than because of a cause that was bigger than their life.

their life. their life. >> And I feel that way. >> And I feel that way. >> And I feel that way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm serving a cause bigger than my life. >> I'm serving a cause bigger than my life. >> I'm serving a cause bigger than my life. And you know, I baptized a little girl And you know, I baptized a little girl And you know, I baptized a little girl from the University of Alabama who a few from the University of Alabama who a few from the University of Alabama who a few weeks later died in a car wreck. And she weeks later died in a car wreck. And she weeks later died in a car wreck. And she went from darkness to life. And we are went from darkness to life. And we are went from darkness to life. And we are serving a cause bigger than our life. serving a cause bigger than our life. serving a cause bigger than our life. And and so our comfort, our our ease, And and so our comfort, our our ease, And and so our comfort, our our ease, our protect, you know, having no our protect, you know, having no our protect, you know, having no spiritual warfare. I'm like, do I really spiritual warfare. I'm like, do I really spiritual warfare. I'm like, do I really want a life with no spiritual warfare? want a life with no spiritual warfare? want a life with no spiritual warfare? You know what do I You know what do I You know what do I >> mean? Yeah. some days but >> mean? Yeah. some days but >> mean? Yeah. some days but not with what I believe you know and and not with what I believe you know and and not with what I believe you know and and so I think we've got to come back to the so I think we've got to come back to the so I think we've got to come back to the purpose and remember like we are in this purpose and remember like we are in this purpose and remember like we are in this for a moment for the souls of many for a moment for the souls of many for a moment for the souls of many people and and when that is the people and and when that is the people and and when that is the compelling force of your life it shifts compelling force of your life it shifts compelling force of your life it shifts how you do ministry why you do ministry how you do ministry why you do ministry how you do ministry why you do ministry um and and we're human with limitations, um and and we're human with limitations, um and and we're human with limitations, right? And we're part of a big bigger right? And we're part of a big bigger right? And we're part of a big bigger supernatural story. So, I'm not bigger supernatural story. So, I'm not bigger supernatural story. So, I'm not bigger or more important than I think I am.

or more important than I think I am. or more important than I think I am. Like, it's we're we're just Like, it's we're we're just Like, it's we're we're just >> we're just each doing our part in our in >> we're just each doing our part in our in >> we're just each doing our part in our in this thing that's happening on Earth this thing that's happening on Earth this thing that's happening on Earth right now. And and so that's why I love right now. And and so that's why I love right now. And and so that's why I love to stick in my day. I'm like, "Yeah, I to stick in my day. I'm like, "Yeah, I to stick in my day. I'm like, "Yeah, I did do that earlier this year, Carrie. did do that earlier this year, Carrie. did do that earlier this year, Carrie. Thanks for reminding me." Like, I I Thanks for reminding me." Like, I I Thanks for reminding me." Like, I I hadn't thought about it in a few days, hadn't thought about it in a few days, hadn't thought about it in a few days, you know? I was like that was that was a you know? I was like that was that was a you know? I was like that was that was a long time ago and today I've got to, you long time ago and today I've got to, you long time ago and today I've got to, you know, do things around my house to make know, do things around my house to make know, do things around my house to make sure sure sure >> we eat and live well, you know. So there >> we eat and live well, you know. So there >> we eat and live well, you know. So there there's a there's a reality, a mundane there's a there's a reality, a mundane there's a there's a reality, a mundane part of my life that that I kind of part of my life that that I kind of part of my life that that I kind of stick with. Um, and so I would just say stick with. Um, and so I would just say stick with. Um, and so I would just say to the pastor that wants to quit, we to the pastor that wants to quit, we to the pastor that wants to quit, we need you. I mean, we're looking at a need you. I mean, we're looking at a need you. I mean, we're looking at a moment in history where the harvest is moment in history where the harvest is moment in history where the harvest is really ripe. And in biblical terms, really ripe. And in biblical terms, really ripe. And in biblical terms, usually at those times, the laborers are usually at those times, the laborers are usually at those times, the laborers are few. So, we need everyone to stay in the few. So, we need everyone to stay in the few. So, we need everyone to stay in the game, whatever that looks like for you, game, whatever that looks like for you, game, whatever that looks like for you, and and to be healthy and to be well and and and to be healthy and to be well and and and to be healthy and to be well and to be able to to do what God calls you to be able to to do what God calls you to be able to to do what God calls you to do. And and so, it's a fun, beautiful to do. And and so, it's a fun, beautiful to do. And and so, it's a fun, beautiful time to be alive. We've talked about all time to be alive. We've talked about all time to be alive. We've talked about all the hard, but I'm like, golly, like, let the hard, but I'm like, golly, like, let the hard, but I'm like, golly, like, let me let me open up the scrapbook and like me let me open up the scrapbook and like me let me open up the scrapbook and like tell you how God's moving like he's tell you how God's moving like he's tell you how God's moving like he's never moved before on earth, you know, never moved before on earth, you know, never moved before on earth, you know, and and it's it's really exciting. And and and it's it's really exciting. And and and it's it's really exciting. And so, you know, it there's both. and and so, you know, it there's both. and and so, you know, it there's both. and and it is and we're needed and when we're it is and we're needed and when we're it is and we're needed and when we're needed and and and I would just say to needed and and and I would just say to needed and and and I would just say to the pastor too that's listening that's the pastor too that's listening that's the pastor too that's listening that's thinking man I'm not seeing revival like thinking man I'm not seeing revival like thinking man I'm not seeing revival like it's just hard and there's no reward it's just hard and there's no reward it's just hard and there's no reward then I would say what an honor because then I would say what an honor because then I would say what an honor because your reward is waiting for you. I mean

your reward is waiting for you. I mean your reward is waiting for you. I mean that's a real fear for me. I'm like I've that's a real fear for me. I'm like I've that's a real fear for me. I'm like I've gotten a lot of the reward here. I've gotten a lot of the reward here. I've gotten a lot of the reward here. I've been the one that's like getting the been the one that's like getting the been the one that's like getting the rewarding parts and pulling up the crops rewarding parts and pulling up the crops rewarding parts and pulling up the crops and holding them in the air and you know and holding them in the air and you know and holding them in the air and you know I I just I've been in that moment. But I I just I've been in that moment. But I I just I've been in that moment. But to those pastors that are not in that to those pastors that are not in that to those pastors that are not in that moment that just feel like you're moment that just feel like you're moment that just feel like you're toiling like it really is true that toiling like it really is true that toiling like it really is true that heaven will be sweet for you. And it heaven will be sweet for you. And it heaven will be sweet for you. And it also is true that when revival really also is true that when revival really also is true that when revival really spreads like I believe it is and will spreads like I believe it is and will spreads like I believe it is and will that it could come where you are and you that it could come where you are and you that it could come where you are and you wouldn't see it coming and you wouldn't wouldn't see it coming and you wouldn't wouldn't see it coming and you wouldn't see it coming. see it coming. see it coming. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion International. So as Jesus Compassion International. So as Jesus Compassion International. So as Jesus looked at the crowd of 5000, he had looked at the crowd of 5000, he had looked at the crowd of 5000, he had compassion on them. He actually healed compassion on them. He actually healed compassion on them. He actually healed them. He fed them. And the text tells us them. He fed them. And the text tells us them. He fed them. And the text tells us that Jesus was moved with compassion. that Jesus was moved with compassion. that Jesus was moved with compassion. Like this deep gut sense of this isn't Like this deep gut sense of this isn't Like this deep gut sense of this isn't right. I'm going to make it right. You right. I'm going to make it right. You right. I'm going to make it right. You know, compassion changes the way we know, compassion changes the way we know, compassion changes the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we show up for others. It changes the way show up for others. It changes the way show up for others. It changes the way our churches grow and the legacy we our churches grow and the legacy we our churches grow and the legacy we leave behind, uh, will actually change leave behind, uh, will actually change leave behind, uh, will actually change because we had compassion because a because we had compassion because a because we had compassion because a posture of compassion, a heart geared posture of compassion, a heart geared posture of compassion, a heart geared toward others actually changes toward others actually changes toward others actually changes everything. So, the question becomes, everything. So, the question becomes, everything. So, the question becomes, what if you led, we led with that same what if you led, we led with that same what if you led, we led with that same posture? In partnering with global posture? In partnering with global posture? In partnering with global churches, Compassion International has churches, Compassion International has churches, Compassion International has been serving children for more than 70 been serving children for more than 70 been serving children for more than 70 years, and they've seen that in all years, and they've seen that in all years, and they've seen that in all aspects of ministry, and all aspects of aspects of ministry, and all aspects of aspects of ministry, and all aspects of our lives, when we lean into this our lives, when we lean into this our lives, when we lean into this posture, compassion changes everything.

posture, compassion changes everything. posture, compassion changes everything. You can download free resources and You can download free resources and You can download free resources and learn more about how compassion changes learn more about how compassion changes learn more about how compassion changes everything at compassion.com/carry. everything at compassion.com/carry. everything at compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carry. What are you learning about What are you learning about What are you learning about spiritual defense, spiritual warfare, spiritual defense, spiritual warfare, spiritual defense, spiritual warfare, protection? Uh Tony and I went through a protection? Uh Tony and I went through a protection? Uh Tony and I went through a really intense time of what we would say really intense time of what we would say really intense time of what we would say was opposition in the mid 2000s, just was opposition in the mid 2000s, just was opposition in the mid 2000s, just over 20 years ago. And I remember our over 20 years ago. And I remember our over 20 years ago. And I remember our prayers were almost daily. I was reading prayers were almost daily. I was reading prayers were almost daily. I was reading about spiritual warfare and then things, about spiritual warfare and then things, about spiritual warfare and then things, you know, they got better. And I think I you know, they got better. And I think I you know, they got better. And I think I probably slacked off a little bit in the probably slacked off a little bit in the probably slacked off a little bit in the spiritual warfare prayers, but my spiritual warfare prayers, but my spiritual warfare prayers, but my counselor, Dr. C, kind of resurrected counselor, Dr. C, kind of resurrected counselor, Dr. C, kind of resurrected that with me last year. And sure enough, that with me last year. And sure enough, that with me last year. And sure enough, you know, as we're recording this, I you know, as we're recording this, I you know, as we're recording this, I feel great. I feel better than I've felt feel great. I feel better than I've felt feel great. I feel better than I've felt in a year. I'm I think I'm healed. Like, in a year. I'm I think I'm healed. Like, in a year. I'm I think I'm healed. Like, I'm really, really thankful. Um, I'm really, really thankful. Um, I'm really, really thankful. Um, but I've got to stay vigilant. And I'm but I've got to stay vigilant. And I'm but I've got to stay vigilant. And I'm just wondering, do you see, you know, just wondering, do you see, you know, just wondering, do you see, you know, the prayers of protection for you, for the prayers of protection for you, for the prayers of protection for you, for Zach? I also want to get an update on Zach? I also want to get an update on Zach? I also want to get an update on how Zach is. Are you handling that how Zach is. Are you handling that how Zach is. Are you handling that differently after the difficult year differently after the difficult year differently after the difficult year that was 2025 for you?

>> Yes. I've never believed more in prayer. >> Yes. I've never believed more in prayer. I saw it turn everything. I mean, the I saw it turn everything. I mean, the I saw it turn everything. I mean, the >> Wow. The day that I called my spiritual >> Wow. The day that I called my spiritual >> Wow. The day that I called my spiritual counselor, counselor, counselor, he he was like, "I was waiting for your he he was like, "I was waiting for your he he was like, "I was waiting for your call." call." call." >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And and I was thinking I should have >> And and I was thinking I should have >> And and I was thinking I should have called sooner. And called sooner. And called sooner. And and I you know, we prayed for an hour. and I you know, we prayed for an hour. and I you know, we prayed for an hour. He and another one of his cohort, you He and another one of his cohort, you He and another one of his cohort, you know, friends, know, friends, know, friends, >> the three of us prayed for an hour. They >> the three of us prayed for an hour. They >> the three of us prayed for an hour. They prayed for me and prayed for me and prayed for me and and they had specifics and they had specifics and they had specifics and and and I've become I've become I've become a very a very a very woo woo kind of Christian. woo woo kind of Christian. woo woo kind of Christian. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, Jenny, >> So, Jenny, >> So, Jenny, >> I mean, you got to understand I I >> I mean, you got to understand I I >> I mean, you got to understand I I graduated from one of the most graduated from one of the most graduated from one of the most conservative theological conservative theological conservative theological uh seminaries on earth. I continue to be uh seminaries on earth. I continue to be uh seminaries on earth. I continue to be a part of very conservative side of the a part of very conservative side of the a part of very conservative side of the church in every way.

church in every way. church in every way. But I have seen too much. I have seen But I have seen too much. I have seen But I have seen too much. I have seen too much. I have been I have met too too much. I have been I have met too too much. I have been I have met too many witches. I have seen too much um of many witches. I have seen too much um of many witches. I have seen too much um of the darkness. I have watched miracles. I the darkness. I have watched miracles. I the darkness. I have watched miracles. I have seen I've baptized have seen I've baptized have seen I've baptized students who when they're telling me students who when they're telling me students who when they're telling me about their life and the witchcraft and about their life and the witchcraft and about their life and the witchcraft and the darkness the darkness the darkness and I'm praying things off of them and and I'm praying things off of them and and I'm praying things off of them and out of them and you see things happen out of them and you see things happen out of them and you see things happen physically physically physically and and and >> I've had similar encounters. >> I've had similar encounters. >> I've had similar encounters. >> You can't you're not the same after >> You can't you're not the same after >> You can't you're not the same after that. You're like, "Oh, wait. Now, let that. You're like, "Oh, wait. Now, let that. You're like, "Oh, wait. Now, let me say this to anyone that's listening me say this to anyone that's listening me say this to anyone that's listening and going, "Oh, she's she's gotten too and going, "Oh, she's she's gotten too and going, "Oh, she's she's gotten too off the rails." Whatever word you would off the rails." Whatever word you would off the rails." Whatever word you would use. I would say ain't nothing that's use. I would say ain't nothing that's use. I would say ain't nothing that's happened around me not biblical. Like, happened around me not biblical. Like, happened around me not biblical. Like, it's all biblical and I am certain of it it's all biblical and I am certain of it it's all biblical and I am certain of it and I can see evidence of it everywhere.

and I can see evidence of it everywhere. and I can see evidence of it everywhere. And I'm going, "Wait, why did I never And I'm going, "Wait, why did I never And I'm going, "Wait, why did I never get trained in this?" Like, this is all get trained in this?" Like, this is all get trained in this?" Like, this is all in the Bible in the Bible in the Bible >> and it's happening. So, let me say this. >> and it's happening. So, let me say this. >> and it's happening. So, let me say this. the the beauty of what God is doing on the the beauty of what God is doing on the the beauty of what God is doing on earth and the power with which he is earth and the power with which he is earth and the power with which he is moving and the the miraculous way people moving and the the miraculous way people moving and the the miraculous way people are going from darkness to light and are going from darkness to light and are going from darkness to light and darkness to light I is and everybody's darkness to light I is and everybody's darkness to light I is and everybody's talking about it and everybody's talking about it and everybody's talking about it and everybody's studying it studying it studying it has also brought a season has also brought a season has also brought a season where everything is where everything is where everything is also getting darker and and so I just also getting darker and and so I just also getting darker and and so I just both all the spiritual world is more both all the spiritual world is more both all the spiritual world is more visible than it's ever been on in our visible than it's ever been on in our visible than it's ever been on in our lifetime. I I would never suggest ever lifetime. I I would never suggest ever lifetime. I I would never suggest ever just in my lifetime. So what that means just in my lifetime. So what that means just in my lifetime. So what that means is that we need to know how to handle is that we need to know how to handle is that we need to know how to handle this. this. this. >> I mean if you're a pastor that doesn't >> I mean if you're a pastor that doesn't >> I mean if you're a pastor that doesn't know what to do when someone comes up know what to do when someone comes up know what to do when someone comes up and says, "I've been cursed," you need and says, "I've been cursed," you need and says, "I've been cursed," you need to know what to do. If you're a pastor to know what to do. If you're a pastor to know what to do. If you're a pastor that doesn't know what to do when that doesn't know what to do when that doesn't know what to do when someone is demonpossessed, you got to someone is demonpossessed, you got to someone is demonpossessed, you got to know what to do. You know, like there's know what to do. You know, like there's know what to do. You know, like there's just there's some there's some real just there's some there's some real just there's some there's some real skills and I can't I'm not the one and I skills and I can't I'm not the one and I skills and I can't I'm not the one and I I can't get into it today, but I have I can't get into it today, but I have I can't get into it today, but I have been trained more in that world and I been trained more in that world and I been trained more in that world and I have known what to do and it works. And have known what to do and it works. And have known what to do and it works. And so so so >> I just I want to just encourage everyone >> I just I want to just encourage everyone >> I just I want to just encourage everyone that we are we are in a season with more that we are we are in a season with more that we are we are in a season with more darkness and with just a lot of activity darkness and with just a lot of activity darkness and with just a lot of activity for whatever reason. And I I could tell

for whatever reason. And I I could tell for whatever reason. And I I could tell you what I think, but um I don't think you what I think, but um I don't think you what I think, but um I don't think it's going to slow down. I think we're it's going to slow down. I think we're it's going to slow down. I think we're going to see it only rev up. going to see it only rev up. going to see it only rev up. >> Do you have a go-to book or school that >> Do you have a go-to book or school that >> Do you have a go-to book or school that you follow around that? Because I've had you follow around that? Because I've had you follow around that? Because I've had I've had similar encounters where I'm I've had similar encounters where I'm I've had similar encounters where I'm like, "Oh, I always believed it was like, "Oh, I always believed it was like, "Oh, I always believed it was true, but now I know it's real cuz you true, but now I know it's real cuz you true, but now I know it's real cuz you see it." you know, I've I've actually see it." you know, I've I've actually see it." you know, I've I've actually just been really blessed with some just been really blessed with some just been really blessed with some spiritual advisors that God literally spiritual advisors that God literally spiritual advisors that God literally brought to me brought to me brought to me >> um because I did not look for them. I >> um because I did not look for them. I >> um because I did not look for them. I didn't know I needed them. So, what I didn't know I needed them. So, what I didn't know I needed them. So, what I would say is ask the Lord to would say is ask the Lord to would say is ask the Lord to >> prepare you for what you need. And I >> prepare you for what you need. And I >> prepare you for what you need. And I often will ask one of them, I I I will often will ask one of them, I I I will often will ask one of them, I I I will say, gosh, what about all the people say, gosh, what about all the people say, gosh, what about all the people that don't know these things or don't that don't know these things or don't that don't know these things or don't know how to do these things or don't know how to do these things or don't know how to do these things or don't know and and he's so calm and sweet. know and and he's so calm and sweet. know and and he's so calm and sweet. He's like, "People always have what they He's like, "People always have what they He's like, "People always have what they need, Jenny." need, Jenny." need, Jenny." >> And I loved that. I was like, "Okay." >> And I loved that. I was like, "Okay." >> And I loved that. I was like, "Okay." So, I would just ask the Lord like, So, I would just ask the Lord like, So, I would just ask the Lord like, "Lord, would you show me and also just "Lord, would you show me and also just "Lord, would you show me and also just not be afraid of it, right?" And and not be afraid of it, right?" And and not be afraid of it, right?" And and that's that's that's >> that's the real thing is we can't we >> that's the real thing is we can't we >> that's the real thing is we can't we don't need to be afraid. We need to feel don't need to be afraid. We need to feel don't need to be afraid. We need to feel equipped. At the end of the day, we have equipped. At the end of the day, we have equipped. At the end of the day, we have the authority of God and we get to talk the authority of God and we get to talk the authority of God and we get to talk to him like pray whatever you know to to him like pray whatever you know to to him like pray whatever you know to pray. It's not like you need some pray. It's not like you need some pray. It's not like you need some special prayer or you need some special special prayer or you need some special special prayer or you need some special training. It's that training. It's that training. It's that >> I think what I was I think because of >> I think what I was I think because of >> I think what I was I think because of what we did globally, we probably mess what we did globally, we probably mess what we did globally, we probably mess with some principalities that aren't with some principalities that aren't with some principalities that aren't often messed with. I think what we do often messed with. I think what we do often messed with. I think what we do with students, I I just think that there

with students, I I just think that there with students, I I just think that there were some special signed things that were some special signed things that were some special signed things that came our way. You know, JP feels the came our way. You know, JP feels the came our way. You know, JP feels the same way same way same way >> and JP both had a rough year. >> and JP both had a rough year. >> and JP both had a rough year. >> Well, and Tanya has too. So, I just >> Well, and Tanya has too. So, I just >> Well, and Tanya has too. So, I just think anybody touching like some of this think anybody touching like some of this think anybody touching like some of this stuff, I think we got we got some stuff, I think we got we got some stuff, I think we got we got some special ones and I think the Lord knew special ones and I think the Lord knew special ones and I think the Lord knew we would and so he sent us the right we would and so he sent us the right we would and so he sent us the right people ahead of that to help. So, I people ahead of that to help. So, I people ahead of that to help. So, I don't mean to act like this is just the don't mean to act like this is just the don't mean to act like this is just the norm, but I am hearing it more and more norm, but I am hearing it more and more norm, but I am hearing it more and more like I'm just hearing people's stories like I'm just hearing people's stories like I'm just hearing people's stories more and more and they're going, "What more and more and they're going, "What more and more and they're going, "What do we do with the fact that there's a do we do with the fact that there's a do we do with the fact that there's a person in our sanctuary that walks person in our sanctuary that walks person in our sanctuary that walks around and curses on a Sunday morning? around and curses on a Sunday morning? around and curses on a Sunday morning? Like, what do we do?" I'm like, "Wow." Like, what do we do?" I'm like, "Wow." Like, what do we do?" I'm like, "Wow." Yeah, you're going to need to know um Yeah, you're going to need to know um Yeah, you're going to need to know um you're just going to need to not be you're just going to need to not be you're just going to need to not be afraid of that. And you're going to need afraid of that. And you're going to need afraid of that. And you're going to need people gifted with intercession and how people gifted with intercession and how people gifted with intercession and how to pray into that. to pray into that. to pray into that. >> Gosh, we could spend the rest of the >> Gosh, we could spend the rest of the >> Gosh, we could spend the rest of the episode talking about that. episode talking about that. episode talking about that. >> I know. And I'm not the one, you know, I >> I know. And I'm not the one, you know, I >> I know. And I'm not the one, you know, I mean, I'm still like the baby that's mean, I'm still like the baby that's mean, I'm still like the baby that's figuring this out. That's just seen too figuring this out. That's just seen too figuring this out. That's just seen too much. I just But I, you know, and I much. I just But I, you know, and I much. I just But I, you know, and I don't want to scare anybody or don't want to scare anybody or don't want to scare anybody or discourage them. If anything, it's like, discourage them. If anything, it's like, discourage them. If anything, it's like, man, I've seen prayer work. I have seen man, I've seen prayer work. I have seen man, I've seen prayer work. I have seen prayer work.

prayer work. prayer work. >> People deliver >> People deliver >> People deliver Yeah, for for myself too. Like I mean Yeah, for for myself too. Like I mean Yeah, for for myself too. Like I mean not delivered in that way but protected. not delivered in that way but protected. not delivered in that way but protected. >> And so I just think we've got to be >> And so I just think we've got to be >> And so I just think we've got to be people that value prayer. I mean our people that value prayer. I mean our people that value prayer. I mean our church I love our church so much. Our church I love our church so much. Our church I love our church so much. Our our local church is right now talking our local church is right now talking our local church is right now talking about the Holy Spirit and again very about the Holy Spirit and again very about the Holy Spirit and again very very conservative awesome biblical very conservative awesome biblical very conservative awesome biblical church. And they just as they've started church. And they just as they've started church. And they just as they've started talking about the Holy Spirit they're talking about the Holy Spirit they're talking about the Holy Spirit they're realizing we got to have more prayer. realizing we got to have more prayer. realizing we got to have more prayer. And so they're inviting people to come And so they're inviting people to come And so they're inviting people to come pray before church in the morning. like pray before church in the morning. like pray before church in the morning. like our our church is just starting to pray our our church is just starting to pray our our church is just starting to pray a lot. I'm like this is it. Like if you a lot. I'm like this is it. Like if you a lot. I'm like this is it. Like if you want to know what to do to see God move, want to know what to do to see God move, want to know what to do to see God move, to see revival happen in your church, in to see revival happen in your church, in to see revival happen in your church, in your home, in your neighborhood, like your home, in your neighborhood, like your home, in your neighborhood, like start praying and start praying and start praying and >> things start things start happening. >> things start things start happening. >> things start things start happening. >> You know, uh John Thompson, uh Toronto >> You know, uh John Thompson, uh Toronto >> You know, uh John Thompson, uh Toronto area pastor has some great books on area pastor has some great books on area pastor has some great books on deliverance and I don't know whether you deliverance and I don't know whether you deliverance and I don't know whether you know John, he's great. know John, he's great. know John, he's great. >> I have met John. >> I have met John. >> I have met John. >> Yeah. And then um and then I think John >> Yeah. And then um and then I think John >> Yeah. And then um and then I think John Eldridge, my memory is going back. I Eldridge, my memory is going back. I Eldridge, my memory is going back. I think he wrote about that as well. So think he wrote about that as well. So think he wrote about that as well. So we'll try to drop a couple links into we'll try to drop a couple links into we'll try to drop a couple links into the show notes on that. Jenny, I'm the show notes on that. Jenny, I'm the show notes on that. Jenny, I'm really grateful your current writing really grateful your current writing really grateful your current writing project talks about lies that are project talks about lies that are project talks about lies that are foundational. We sort of have our foundational. We sort of have our foundational. We sort of have our current struggles, but then we've got current struggles, but then we've got current struggles, but then we've got stuff, all of us listening, that's been stuff, all of us listening, that's been stuff, all of us listening, that's been with us since childhood, that continues with us since childhood, that continues with us since childhood, that continues to show up in your 40s and your 50s and to show up in your 40s and your 50s and to show up in your 40s and your 50s and beyond. and you're always so vulnerable.

beyond. and you're always so vulnerable. beyond. and you're always so vulnerable. You're always so open and I so You're always so open and I so You're always so open and I so appreciate about that. But you appreciate about that. But you appreciate about that. But you identified a lie that surfaced in your identified a lie that surfaced in your identified a lie that surfaced in your life when you were an adult that got life when you were an adult that got life when you were an adult that got planted when you were a child. What was planted when you were a child. What was planted when you were a child. What was that sort of core belief that haunts that sort of core belief that haunts that sort of core belief that haunts you? you? you? >> Yeah. Well, yeah, this is this is tricky >> Yeah. Well, yeah, this is this is tricky >> Yeah. Well, yeah, this is this is tricky because we are we're very accepting of because we are we're very accepting of because we are we're very accepting of the lies that we pick up when we're the lies that we pick up when we're the lies that we pick up when we're young. we we really believe they're young. we we really believe they're young. we we really believe they're true. And and so that was actually why I true. And and so that was actually why I true. And and so that was actually why I named the book what I named it was the named the book what I named it was the named the book what I named it was the lie you don't know you believe. And the lie you don't know you believe. And the lie you don't know you believe. And the reason why was because I don't think I reason why was because I don't think I reason why was because I don't think I really knew. I still sometimes have to really knew. I still sometimes have to really knew. I still sometimes have to tell myself like that is not true. Um we tell myself like that is not true. Um we tell myself like that is not true. Um we accept it deeply when we've been told it accept it deeply when we've been told it accept it deeply when we've been told it our whole lives by the enemy or by even our whole lives by the enemy or by even our whole lives by the enemy or by even people we love that inadvertently have people we love that inadvertently have people we love that inadvertently have said those things. And so the lie that I said those things. And so the lie that I said those things. And so the lie that I have believed is that I am worthless. have believed is that I am worthless. have believed is that I am worthless. And so I I have, you know, it didn't And so I I have, you know, it didn't And so I I have, you know, it didn't come out that way. That's not how I said come out that way. That's not how I said come out that way. That's not how I said it.

it. it. >> That's the psych 101 version of it. Um >> That's the psych 101 version of it. Um >> That's the psych 101 version of it. Um but what I said was I am nothing. but what I said was I am nothing. but what I said was I am nothing. >> It is meaningless. Everything I'm doing >> It is meaningless. Everything I'm doing >> It is meaningless. Everything I'm doing is meaningless and I am nothing and it's is meaningless and I am nothing and it's is meaningless and I am nothing and it's just all going to go to dust and what's just all going to go to dust and what's just all going to go to dust and what's the point? That's it was very the point? That's it was very the point? That's it was very Ecclesiastes of me Ecclesiastes of me Ecclesiastes of me >> and >> and >> and >> and and >> and and >> and and so I you know when I named that I that so I you know when I named that I that so I you know when I named that I that wasn't so long ago that was probably um wasn't so long ago that was probably um wasn't so long ago that was probably um 8 to 10 years ago that I named it with a 8 to 10 years ago that I named it with a 8 to 10 years ago that I named it with a friend that lovingly was teaching me friend that lovingly was teaching me friend that lovingly was teaching me actually how to pray actually how to pray actually how to pray >> for people and how to help them with >> for people and how to help them with >> for people and how to help them with their lives. And instead of teaching me their lives. And instead of teaching me their lives. And instead of teaching me she was like why don't we just do it she was like why don't we just do it she was like why don't we just do it with you? I was like, "No, I'm good. with you? I was like, "No, I'm good. with you? I was like, "No, I'm good. Let's do it with my sister." And and so, Let's do it with my sister." And and so, Let's do it with my sister." And and so, but we did it. And I mean, before I knew but we did it. And I mean, before I knew but we did it. And I mean, before I knew it, I'm just weeping and aware that, it, I'm just weeping and aware that, it, I'm just weeping and aware that, man, this thing has has really been with man, this thing has has really been with man, this thing has has really been with me my whole life. me my whole life. me my whole life. >> And so, you know, the moment I remember >> And so, you know, the moment I remember >> And so, you know, the moment I remember believing it, I was 12.

believing it, I was 12. believing it, I was 12. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And many people at six, many people >> And many people at six, many people >> And many people at six, many people it's, you know, very, very, very young. it's, you know, very, very, very young. it's, you know, very, very, very young. I don't remember thinking thoughts I don't remember thinking thoughts I don't remember thinking thoughts without those thoughts being there. And without those thoughts being there. And without those thoughts being there. And so for some of my friends, there's so for some of my friends, there's so for some of my friends, there's three. I'm helpless. I'm worthless. I'm three. I'm helpless. I'm worthless. I'm three. I'm helpless. I'm worthless. I'm unlovable. Those are just from Psych unlovable. Those are just from Psych unlovable. Those are just from Psych 101, the common lies that all humans 101, the common lies that all humans 101, the common lies that all humans believe about themselves. What I the the believe about themselves. What I the the believe about themselves. What I the the study and the research I did was is study and the research I did was is study and the research I did was is there one core lie? Like do we have one there one core lie? Like do we have one there one core lie? Like do we have one core lie? Because it feels like we do. core lie? Because it feels like we do. core lie? Because it feels like we do. >> And everything pointed to yes. That's >> And everything pointed to yes. That's >> And everything pointed to yes. That's something you picked up from a young something you picked up from a young something you picked up from a young age. really does stick with you and age. really does stick with you and age. really does stick with you and becomes factual. becomes factual. becomes factual. >> So, I'm sure your parents weren't trying >> So, I'm sure your parents weren't trying >> So, I'm sure your parents weren't trying to instill that in you. Some some to instill that in you. Some some to instill that in you. Some some leaders listening would say, "No, my leaders listening would say, "No, my leaders listening would say, "No, my parents, you know, I remember my parents parents, you know, I remember my parents parents, you know, I remember my parents screaming, "You're worthless. You'll screaming, "You're worthless. You'll screaming, "You're worthless. You'll never amount to anything, and it's never amount to anything, and it's never amount to anything, and it's driven them, haunted them for years." driven them, haunted them for years." driven them, haunted them for years." But your story was different. How did But your story was different. How did But your story was different. How did that happen? What happened when you were that happen? What happened when you were that happen? What happened when you were 12? 12? 12? >> Well, you know, my dad, I love my dad.

>> Well, you know, my dad, I love my dad. >> Well, you know, my dad, I love my dad. We have a great relationship. Um my dad We have a great relationship. Um my dad We have a great relationship. Um my dad pulled me on his lap and um he we were pulled me on his lap and um he we were pulled me on his lap and um he we were just talking about middle school. I was just talking about middle school. I was just talking about middle school. I was headed to middle school and I was he was headed to middle school and I was he was headed to middle school and I was he was talking about boys and homecoming and talking about boys and homecoming and talking about boys and homecoming and and cheerleading and all the things that and cheerleading and all the things that and cheerleading and all the things that prior to that I hadn't thought a lot prior to that I hadn't thought a lot prior to that I hadn't thought a lot about and was excited about. But what I about and was excited about. But what I about and was excited about. But what I heard and what I walked away with, he heard and what I walked away with, he heard and what I walked away with, he certainly did not mean. He doesn't certainly did not mean. He doesn't certainly did not mean. He doesn't remember that day and he doesn't didn't remember that day and he doesn't didn't remember that day and he doesn't didn't mean to do what happened next. But I mean to do what happened next. But I mean to do what happened next. But I walked away with, "Oh, there's pressure. walked away with, "Oh, there's pressure. walked away with, "Oh, there's pressure. Like, I need to I need to accomplish all Like, I need to I need to accomplish all Like, I need to I need to accomplish all of these things or I don't know how he's of these things or I don't know how he's of these things or I don't know how he's going to feel. I don't know how people going to feel. I don't know how people going to feel. I don't know how people will feel about me." And so that's the will feel about me." And so that's the will feel about me." And so that's the first time I really remember first time I really remember first time I really remember setting a mark and trying to catch it. setting a mark and trying to catch it. setting a mark and trying to catch it. And I would say that would go on and And I would say that would go on and And I would say that would go on and define the next decades of my life. that define the next decades of my life. that define the next decades of my life. that a line would be moving and I couldn't a line would be moving and I couldn't a line would be moving and I couldn't quite I would get close and I wouldn't quite I would get close and I wouldn't quite I would get close and I wouldn't and I would no I would even cross it. I and I would no I would even cross it. I and I would no I would even cross it. I would even go further than I thought the would even go further than I thought the would even go further than I thought the line was and it still moved. It always line was and it still moved. It always line was and it still moved. It always kept moving. And so that was my lie. Um kept moving. And so that was my lie. Um kept moving. And so that was my lie. Um and yeah, and my counselor is so funny.

and yeah, and my counselor is so funny. and yeah, and my counselor is so funny. He he will just laugh sometimes because He he will just laugh sometimes because He he will just laugh sometimes because I'll say this one's different. Like this I'll say this one's different. Like this I'll say this one's different. Like this isn't that one. He's like nope. It's isn't that one. He's like nope. It's isn't that one. He's like nope. It's that one again. you know, and and so but that one again. you know, and and so but that one again. you know, and and so but what really got me and the reason I what really got me and the reason I what really got me and the reason I wrote the book, I mean, none of this is wrote the book, I mean, none of this is wrote the book, I mean, none of this is new to me, right? new to me, right? new to me, right? >> But what got me was that I'm sitting >> But what got me was that I'm sitting >> But what got me was that I'm sitting across from my daughter across from my daughter across from my daughter >> and she's telling me >> and she's telling me >> and she's telling me she's defective, she's broken, she's defective, she's broken, she's defective, she's broken, worthless, you know, she didn't use that worthless, you know, she didn't use that worthless, you know, she didn't use that word. and she's the most radiant, word. and she's the most radiant, word. and she's the most radiant, successful photographer. Loves Jesus, successful photographer. Loves Jesus, successful photographer. Loves Jesus, married this amazing guy. Like married this amazing guy. Like married this amazing guy. Like >> what? Like I was ragefilled right when >> what? Like I was ragefilled right when >> what? Like I was ragefilled right when this happens. I mean angry when she's this happens. I mean angry when she's this happens. I mean angry when she's telling me all this. And I'm like telling me all this. And I'm like telling me all this. And I'm like obviously this is a lie. She's like, obviously this is a lie. She's like, obviously this is a lie. She's like, "Mom, this is what she said. Mom, you're "Mom, this is what she said. Mom, you're "Mom, this is what she said. Mom, you're my mom. You can't say that. Meaning this my mom. You can't say that. Meaning this my mom. You can't say that. Meaning this is true. Like I believe these things. is true. Like I believe these things. is true. Like I believe these things. this is you can't tell me they're not this is you can't tell me they're not this is you can't tell me they're not true.

true. true. >> So that just broke me and then I was >> So that just broke me and then I was >> So that just broke me and then I was just I was so sad because I was like just I was so sad because I was like just I was so sad because I was like this is my lie and I gave it to her, you this is my lie and I gave it to her, you this is my lie and I gave it to her, you know, and how did I do that? Is this know, and how did I do that? Is this know, and how did I do that? Is this generational? Is this is this did I I I generational? Is this is this did I I I generational? Is this is this did I I I didn't parent like that? Like I mean I didn't parent like that? Like I mean I didn't parent like that? Like I mean I was the parent who you know she walks in was the parent who you know she walks in was the parent who you know she walks in from cross country and she's like I came from cross country and she's like I came from cross country and she's like I came in 21st and we're all like yeah like in 21st and we're all like yeah like in 21st and we're all like yeah like celebrate. Like I we are not the need to celebrate. Like I we are not the need to celebrate. Like I we are not the need to make a make a make a >> You're not the Well, why not 20th? Why >> You're not the Well, why not 20th? Why >> You're not the Well, why not 20th? Why not first? Yeah. You're not that family. not first? Yeah. You're not that family. not first? Yeah. You're not that family. >> I'm like great. Like we we could have >> I'm like great. Like we we could have >> I'm like great. Like we we could have cared less and about any of it. Like we cared less and about any of it. Like we cared less and about any of it. Like we just wanted to delight over our kids and just wanted to delight over our kids and just wanted to delight over our kids and like be so proud of them and love them like be so proud of them and love them like be so proud of them and love them and be those parents, you know? And so and be those parents, you know? And so and be those parents, you know? And so I'm thinking, where did you get this? I'm thinking, where did you get this? I'm thinking, where did you get this? Like and I think she watched me. I think Like and I think she watched me. I think Like and I think she watched me. I think how generational sin works is they watch how generational sin works is they watch how generational sin works is they watch us. like we can do it all differently us. like we can do it all differently us. like we can do it all differently and and and yet they see us strive and they see us yet they see us strive and they see us yet they see us strive and they see us need to hit the mark and it's need to hit the mark and it's need to hit the mark and it's contagious.

contagious. contagious. And if if that is the reason someone is And if if that is the reason someone is And if if that is the reason someone is motivated to get free, I'm fine with it motivated to get free, I'm fine with it motivated to get free, I'm fine with it because we're not often motivated by because we're not often motivated by because we're not often motivated by ourselves being stuck. ourselves being stuck. ourselves being stuck. >> But we are we are being contagious to >> But we are we are being contagious to >> But we are we are being contagious to our the people we lead. We are being our the people we lead. We are being our the people we lead. We are being contagious to our congregations. like we contagious to our congregations. like we contagious to our congregations. like we we are this is this is what happens like we are this is this is what happens like we are this is this is what happens like they don't stay neutral. We aren't they don't stay neutral. We aren't they don't stay neutral. We aren't neutral people. We don't wake up in a neutral people. We don't wake up in a neutral people. We don't wake up in a neutral world. neutral world. neutral world. This is war and the war is for your mind This is war and the war is for your mind This is war and the war is for your mind and your beliefs and it matters more and your beliefs and it matters more and your beliefs and it matters more than anything else. If you get that than anything else. If you get that than anything else. If you get that right, seek ye first the kingdom of God right, seek ye first the kingdom of God right, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these other things will be added and all these other things will be added and all these other things will be added to you. You know, out of the heart flows to you. You know, out of the heart flows to you. You know, out of the heart flows everything else. So we know that like we everything else. So we know that like we everything else. So we know that like we get this right, we get our heart, our get this right, we get our heart, our get this right, we get our heart, our thoughts, our mind, our fixed, you know, thoughts, our mind, our fixed, you know, thoughts, our mind, our fixed, you know, energy in our minds right, our beliefs, energy in our minds right, our beliefs, energy in our minds right, our beliefs, >> then out of it comes everything we're >> then out of it comes everything we're >> then out of it comes everything we're craving and wanting. But but inside it's craving and wanting. But but inside it's craving and wanting. But but inside it's like we've really like we've really like we've really and the problem is and what I hope this and the problem is and what I hope this and the problem is and what I hope this book does is it wakes people up to maybe book does is it wakes people up to maybe book does is it wakes people up to maybe it is a lie because right now most it is a lie because right now most it is a lie because right now most people are accepting it as just true and people are accepting it as just true and people are accepting it as just true and fact.

fact. fact. So, you know, my lie, you can't help but So, you know, my lie, you can't help but So, you know, my lie, you can't help but reflect on your own childhood. And I reflect on your own childhood. And I reflect on your own childhood. And I probably discovered this, I don't know, probably discovered this, I don't know, probably discovered this, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago in counseling or maybe 20 years ago in counseling or maybe 20 years ago in counseling or something like that, maybe a bit longer, something like that, maybe a bit longer, something like that, maybe a bit longer, but it's that, and it's probably related but it's that, and it's probably related but it's that, and it's probably related to one of the three core lies, but it to one of the three core lies, but it to one of the three core lies, but it was, oh, if I'm going to be loved, I was, oh, if I'm going to be loved, I was, oh, if I'm going to be loved, I have to perform. And my parents didn't have to perform. And my parents didn't have to perform. And my parents didn't intend that. That's just, you know, intend that. That's just, you know, intend that. That's just, you know, message received, not necessarily message received, not necessarily message received, not necessarily message sent. And so, you know, a good message sent. And so, you know, a good message sent. And so, you know, a good report card was love. um you know mowing report card was love. um you know mowing report card was love. um you know mowing the lawn was love all that. So I mean the lawn was love all that. So I mean the lawn was love all that. So I mean you want me to perform I will perform you want me to perform I will perform you want me to perform I will perform and that drove me to burnout 20 years and that drove me to burnout 20 years and that drove me to burnout 20 years ago. Um drove a wedge in my marriage. Uh ago. Um drove a wedge in my marriage. Uh ago. Um drove a wedge in my marriage. Uh made me in the early days a harder boss made me in the early days a harder boss made me in the early days a harder boss to work for because the standards were to work for because the standards were to work for because the standards were high. Oh, you hit it. Great. We just high. Oh, you hit it. Great. We just high. Oh, you hit it. Great. We just moved it up again. And you know it was moved it up again. And you know it was moved it up again. And you know it was it was it was really um it was it was it was really um it was it was it was really um it was performative but it was also had a performative but it was also had a performative but it was also had a destructive side to it. It was all in destructive side to it. It was all in destructive side to it. It was all in the name of Jesus the name of Jesus the name of Jesus >> and Jesus somehow used it. So I'm I'm >> and Jesus somehow used it. So I'm I'm >> and Jesus somehow used it. So I'm I'm familiar I think with the the struggle familiar I think with the the struggle familiar I think with the the struggle that you're describing and yet you know that you're describing and yet you know that you're describing and yet you know you look at this Jenny and you know when you look at this Jenny and you know when you look at this Jenny and you know when I read that I almost dropped I was I read that I almost dropped I was I read that I almost dropped I was reading a e version but I would have reading a e version but I would have reading a e version but I would have dropped the book when I read that. And dropped the book when I read that. And dropped the book when I read that. And I'm like, really? Jenny struggles with I'm like, really? Jenny struggles with I'm like, really? Jenny struggles with this? Look at her. Look at her. Like, this? Look at her. Look at her. Like, this? Look at her. Look at her. Like, look at everything she's done. Look what look at everything she's done. Look what look at everything she's done. Look what she's written. Look how she preaches.

she's written. Look how she preaches. she's written. Look how she preaches. Look what she's accomplished. And you Look what she's accomplished. And you Look what she's accomplished. And you think you're worthless. Like, come on. think you're worthless. Like, come on. think you're worthless. Like, come on. But sometimes those lies, But sometimes those lies, But sometimes those lies, they drive you either to become an they drive you either to become an they drive you either to become an alcoholic, a drug addict, or they drive alcoholic, a drug addict, or they drive alcoholic, a drug addict, or they drive you to be uber successful. you to be uber successful. you to be uber successful. >> Yes. Right. What? How did that drive the >> Yes. Right. What? How did that drive the >> Yes. Right. What? How did that drive the first few decades of your ministry? first few decades of your ministry? first few decades of your ministry? >> I know. It's terrifying, right? I still >> I know. It's terrifying, right? I still >> I know. It's terrifying, right? I still feel like when when God was being clear feel like when when God was being clear feel like when when God was being clear about like my next steps, I I really had about like my next steps, I I really had about like my next steps, I I really had to take it to the people that love me to take it to the people that love me to take it to the people that love me and say, "Is there any way and say, "Is there any way and say, "Is there any way >> that I'm doing this out of my >> that I'm doing this out of my >> that I'm doing this out of my woundedness?" Like that's a question now woundedness?" Like that's a question now woundedness?" Like that's a question now that I have. that I have. that I have. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> And and um and you know, and we >> And and um and you know, and we >> And and um and you know, and we processed it together, but it wasn't. processed it together, but it wasn't. processed it together, but it wasn't. And and I really was like I was clear. I And and I really was like I was clear. I And and I really was like I was clear. I was like, I really feel really happy was like, I really feel really happy was like, I really feel really happy with my life and myself right now. And I with my life and myself right now. And I with my life and myself right now. And I feel like, you know, this really is a feel like, you know, this really is a feel like, you know, this really is a love offering to God what it's about, love offering to God what it's about, love offering to God what it's about, like what I'm about to go do, but and a like what I'm about to go do, but and a like what I'm about to go do, but and a and a gift to get to do it. And I I I and a gift to get to do it. And I I I and a gift to get to do it. And I I I feel all of those things today. So, feel all of those things today. So, feel all of those things today. So, that's good. besides being prepared and that's good. besides being prepared and that's good. besides being prepared and bracing for the hard parts. But I would bracing for the hard parts. But I would bracing for the hard parts. But I would say when I look back, um, yeah, I I say when I look back, um, yeah, I I say when I look back, um, yeah, I I just, you know, we desperately just, you know, we desperately just, you know, we desperately want to want to want to be loved and seen and known. That's the be loved and seen and known. That's the be loved and seen and known. That's the core of it all, right? We're not We core of it all, right? We're not We core of it all, right? We're not We don't actually want to be important. We don't actually want to be important. We don't actually want to be important. We don't actually want to be successful.

don't actually want to be successful. don't actually want to be successful. What we want is acceptance. We want What we want is acceptance. We want What we want is acceptance. We want >> approval. We want our parents to be >> approval. We want our parents to be >> approval. We want our parents to be proud of us. I was interviewing with a proud of us. I was interviewing with a proud of us. I was interviewing with a girl yesterday about this and she talked girl yesterday about this and she talked girl yesterday about this and she talked about her immediate where she went back about her immediate where she went back about her immediate where she went back to an age was she went back to 8 years to an age was she went back to 8 years to an age was she went back to 8 years old and her parents not coming to the old and her parents not coming to the old and her parents not coming to the gymnastics competitions unless she was gymnastics competitions unless she was gymnastics competitions unless she was getting an award or unless she was doing getting an award or unless she was doing getting an award or unless she was doing really well. really well. really well. >> And so she you know and I was like well >> And so she you know and I was like well >> And so she you know and I was like well she didn't she didn't care about she didn't she didn't care about she didn't she didn't care about gymnastics. I mean, maybe a little bit gymnastics. I mean, maybe a little bit gymnastics. I mean, maybe a little bit part of her did, but but she cared about part of her did, but but she cared about part of her did, but but she cared about her parents coming, you know, and I her parents coming, you know, and I her parents coming, you know, and I think that that's all of us, right? Like think that that's all of us, right? Like think that that's all of us, right? Like we just it's so good to think about when we just it's so good to think about when we just it's so good to think about when is the first time that you remember is the first time that you remember is the first time that you remember feeling this way feeling this way feeling this way because it really gets to the core of because it really gets to the core of because it really gets to the core of what the enemy's used to drive you for what the enemy's used to drive you for what the enemy's used to drive you for so long to do this. For my friends that so long to do this. For my friends that so long to do this. For my friends that struggle with a lie, I'm helpless. struggle with a lie, I'm helpless. struggle with a lie, I'm helpless. almost every time, not every time, but almost every time, not every time, but almost every time, not every time, but almost every time they tell me that in almost every time they tell me that in almost every time they tell me that in some form there was neglect or abuse or some form there was neglect or abuse or some form there was neglect or abuse or suffering that they couldn't control. So suffering that they couldn't control. So suffering that they couldn't control. So they want control because they couldn't they want control because they couldn't they want control because they couldn't have control. And and so but yet they have control. And and so but yet they have control. And and so but yet they they don't feel like they will ever have they don't feel like they will ever have they don't feel like they will ever have it. And and so my friends that their it. And and so my friends that their it. And and so my friends that their core lie is I am lovable. There was core lie is I am lovable. There was core lie is I am lovable. There was rejection, betrayal, hurt from a young rejection, betrayal, hurt from a young rejection, betrayal, hurt from a young age. At some point they felt it. and age. At some point they felt it. and age. At some point they felt it. and they, you know, they they've worked they, you know, they they've worked they, you know, they they've worked their whole life just to help to make their whole life just to help to make their whole life just to help to make sure people like them and and so they're

sure people like them and and so they're sure people like them and and so they're funny and they or whatever they can do. funny and they or whatever they can do. funny and they or whatever they can do. I mean, honestly, like the way you just I mean, honestly, like the way you just I mean, honestly, like the way you just told your story, I would say, Carrie, it told your story, I would say, Carrie, it told your story, I would say, Carrie, it might be even though it sounds similar might be even though it sounds similar might be even though it sounds similar to mine, it really might be more lovable to mine, it really might be more lovable to mine, it really might be more lovable because that's the word you used over because that's the word you used over because that's the word you used over and over again was the motivation and and over again was the motivation and and over again was the motivation and the reason you were doing that. Um, so I the reason you were doing that. Um, so I the reason you were doing that. Um, so I think, you know, for each of us, we can think, you know, for each of us, we can think, you know, for each of us, we can just go back. We actually made a really just go back. We actually made a really just go back. We actually made a really helpful quiz on my website that y'all helpful quiz on my website that y'all helpful quiz on my website that y'all can have a link to. It's free just just can have a link to. It's free just just can have a link to. It's free just just to kind of help people because I do to kind of help people because I do to kind of help people because I do think sometimes we don't know because think sometimes we don't know because think sometimes we don't know because you got to realize the reason we don't you got to realize the reason we don't you got to realize the reason we don't know and the reason it's hard to land know and the reason it's hard to land know and the reason it's hard to land >> is because it's just the way we think >> is because it's just the way we think >> is because it's just the way we think and we think and we think and we think >> we think everybody else thinks the same >> we think everybody else thinks the same >> we think everybody else thinks the same way as us. And so, you know, nobody's way as us. And so, you know, nobody's way as us. And so, you know, nobody's questioned it, nobody's challenged it. questioned it, nobody's challenged it. questioned it, nobody's challenged it. it's just sat there unchallenged it's just sat there unchallenged it's just sat there unchallenged living in us for a long long time. So living in us for a long long time. So living in us for a long long time. So it's really hard to kind of land it. And it's really hard to kind of land it. And it's really hard to kind of land it. And so you know when you do though what you so you know when you do though what you so you know when you do though what you can do is go man like even just the can do is go man like even just the can do is go man like even just the practice of me asking the question like practice of me asking the question like practice of me asking the question like am I doing this out of striving? Am I am I doing this out of striving? Am I am I doing this out of striving? Am I trying to make God say well done to me?

trying to make God say well done to me? trying to make God say well done to me? Am I trying to get my dad's approval? Am I trying to get my dad's approval? Am I trying to get my dad's approval? like is this is this what I'm going for like is this is this what I'm going for like is this is this what I'm going for or is this really from God and I'm or is this really from God and I'm or is this really from God and I'm called to it? What it looked like for me called to it? What it looked like for me called to it? What it looked like for me for so long was just um really I could for so long was just um really I could for so long was just um really I could never have joy in my work never have joy in my work never have joy in my work >> because even if I hit the mark it didn't >> because even if I hit the mark it didn't >> because even if I hit the mark it didn't feel good enough. That's what says sad feel good enough. That's what says sad feel good enough. That's what says sad for me and what I hope for people. Why I for me and what I hope for people. Why I for me and what I hope for people. Why I think it's so important we find this is think it's so important we find this is think it's so important we find this is because not only is it stopping people because not only is it stopping people because not only is it stopping people from living out what God's called them from living out what God's called them from living out what God's called them to do, but in many cases they will do to do, but in many cases they will do to do, but in many cases they will do what they're supposed to do, but they what they're supposed to do, but they what they're supposed to do, but they never enjoy it never enjoy it never enjoy it >> and and they they just feel like they >> and and they they just feel like they >> and and they they just feel like they can't Yeah, they can't ever celebrate. can't Yeah, they can't ever celebrate. can't Yeah, they can't ever celebrate. >> No. One of my current theories, and I >> No. One of my current theories, and I >> No. One of my current theories, and I think I want to write a book on this in think I want to write a book on this in think I want to write a book on this in the next few years, but unexamined the next few years, but unexamined the next few years, but unexamined motives, right? If you look at at that motives, right? If you look at at that motives, right? If you look at at that unarticulated lie, it just drove you. unarticulated lie, it just drove you. unarticulated lie, it just drove you. >> And sort of my working thesis is >> And sort of my working thesis is >> And sort of my working thesis is unexamined motives will drive you until unexamined motives will drive you until unexamined motives will drive you until they destroy you they destroy you they destroy you >> unless because you've seen that, right?

>> unless because you've seen that, right? >> unless because you've seen that, right? Some people who just it's never enough. Some people who just it's never enough. Some people who just it's never enough. >> And you can see that in cosmetic surgery >> And you can see that in cosmetic surgery >> And you can see that in cosmetic surgery where they don't even look human where they don't even look human where they don't even look human anymore. You can see that in anymore. You can see that in anymore. You can see that in >> um the way people use money. You can see >> um the way people use money. You can see >> um the way people use money. You can see that in platform building honestly in that in platform building honestly in that in platform building honestly in the church where it's like what are you the church where it's like what are you the church where it's like what are you after? Like what do you need to make you after? Like what do you need to make you after? Like what do you need to make you feel better? Is 41,000 likes not enough? feel better? Is 41,000 likes not enough? feel better? Is 41,000 likes not enough? Like Like Like >> what do you need? And >> what do you need? And >> what do you need? And >> when you think about that moment with >> when you think about that moment with >> when you think about that moment with your girlfriend where you the dam broke your girlfriend where you the dam broke your girlfriend where you the dam broke and you and you and you >> realized the lie. Um >> realized the lie. Um >> realized the lie. Um you said prior to that it was just never you said prior to that it was just never you said prior to that it was just never enough, right? you can never enjoy it. enough, right? you can never enjoy it. enough, right? you can never enjoy it. And the line kept moving. How's it And the line kept moving. How's it And the line kept moving. How's it different now? different now? different now? >> You know, and now today >> You know, and now today >> You know, and now today I am I am having way more fun. I mean, I I am I am having way more fun. I mean, I I am I am having way more fun. I mean, I just feel delight. I feel the delight of just feel delight. I feel the delight of just feel delight. I feel the delight of God in my life. I feel we're used to Let God in my life. I feel we're used to Let God in my life. I feel we're used to Let me just do a really short when I started me just do a really short when I started me just do a really short when I started if gathering versus when I started if gathering versus when I started if gathering versus when I started gather. So 10 years later, I started if gather. So 10 years later, I started if gather. So 10 years later, I started if gathering and I spun out afterwards gathering and I spun out afterwards gathering and I spun out afterwards wanting to hear God say like, "Well wanting to hear God say like, "Well wanting to hear God say like, "Well done." I I that was what I was craving.

done." I I that was what I was craving. done." I I that was what I was craving. I was like, "Did I do it right? Did I do I was like, "Did I do it right? Did I do I was like, "Did I do it right? Did I do did I do what you wanted me to do?" And did I do what you wanted me to do?" And did I do what you wanted me to do?" And then it grows and and it becomes more then it grows and and it becomes more then it grows and and it becomes more and I'm like, "God, am I is my heart and I'm like, "God, am I is my heart and I'm like, "God, am I is my heart pure enough? Am I like it it was just pure enough? Am I like it it was just pure enough? Am I like it it was just this constant like I am I right?" this constant like I am I right?" this constant like I am I right?" >> Yeah. And like now I'm kind of like, >> Yeah. And like now I'm kind of like, >> Yeah. And like now I'm kind of like, "Well, that was fun." Like I can't "Well, that was fun." Like I can't "Well, that was fun." Like I can't believe that. I bet I bet you love that. believe that. I bet I bet you love that. believe that. I bet I bet you love that. like there's a whole new relationship like there's a whole new relationship like there's a whole new relationship with God where it's not even about me, with God where it's not even about me, with God where it's not even about me, right? It's more like I I just feel right? It's more like I I just feel right? It's more like I I just feel free. I feel like I am going to screw up free. I feel like I am going to screw up free. I feel like I am going to screw up and I am going to make mistakes and I and I am going to make mistakes and I and I am going to make mistakes and I could do things better than I do them could do things better than I do them could do things better than I do them and and he could have picked someone and and he could have picked someone and and he could have picked someone else that was probably better at my job. else that was probably better at my job. else that was probably better at my job. Like all of that's true. Like I can I Like all of that's true. Like I can I Like all of that's true. Like I can I can kind of be like, "Yeah, that's can kind of be like, "Yeah, that's can kind of be like, "Yeah, that's that's that's factual." Like the answer that's that's factual." Like the answer that's that's factual." Like the answer isn't the answer isn't isn't the answer isn't isn't the answer isn't >> man like finally realizing you do >> man like finally realizing you do >> man like finally realizing you do matter. The answer is it doesn't even matter. The answer is it doesn't even matter. The answer is it doesn't even matter because we live in a whole other matter because we live in a whole other matter because we live in a whole other kingdom and kingdom and kingdom and >> and it's so much more free there and I >> and it's so much more free there and I >> and it's so much more free there and I love that kingdom and that's really what love that kingdom and that's really what love that kingdom and that's really what I frame the book as rather than just lie I frame the book as rather than just lie I frame the book as rather than just lie truth lie truth which is what I think truth lie truth which is what I think truth lie truth which is what I think people would expect and what and it's people would expect and what and it's people would expect and what and it's super important and you got to know the super important and you got to know the super important and you got to know the truth at least you can't you you have to truth at least you can't you you have to truth at least you can't you you have to begin with the truth but it's so much begin with the truth but it's so much begin with the truth but it's so much more than that we're talking about a more than that we're talking about a more than that we're talking about a lifetime of a song that has been written lifetime of a song that has been written lifetime of a song that has been written for you and sung over you to cause you for you and sung over you to cause you for you and sung over you to cause you to be in bondage. A lifetime of it, to be in bondage. A lifetime of it, to be in bondage. A lifetime of it, right? Potentially. We're talking about right? Potentially. We're talking about right? Potentially. We're talking about core deep beliefs. Wow. Do those change

core deep beliefs. Wow. Do those change core deep beliefs. Wow. Do those change a Bible verse? You know, I it wasn't a Bible verse? You know, I it wasn't a Bible verse? You know, I it wasn't working for me. And what what shifted working for me. And what what shifted working for me. And what what shifted though was shifting kingdoms? And just though was shifting kingdoms? And just though was shifting kingdoms? And just every day I wake up and I'm like, which every day I wake up and I'm like, which every day I wake up and I'm like, which kingdom am I going to live in? The one kingdom am I going to live in? The one kingdom am I going to live in? The one where I do because by the way, in the where I do because by the way, in the where I do because by the way, in the worldly kingdom where the prince of the worldly kingdom where the prince of the worldly kingdom where the prince of the world is a slave master, yeah, you need world is a slave master, yeah, you need world is a slave master, yeah, you need to measure up. And yeah, you need to do to measure up. And yeah, you need to do to measure up. And yeah, you need to do things to be loved, Carrie. Like that's things to be loved, Carrie. Like that's things to be loved, Carrie. Like that's true. That's not that's not even a lie. true. That's not that's not even a lie. true. That's not that's not even a lie. That's actually true in this kingdom. That's actually true in this kingdom. That's actually true in this kingdom. >> But in the other kingdom that you get to >> But in the other kingdom that you get to >> But in the other kingdom that you get to mess up. You get to make mistakes. You mess up. You get to make mistakes. You mess up. You get to make mistakes. You get to learn. You get to have fun get to learn. You get to have fun get to learn. You get to have fun obeying God because he's not a slave obeying God because he's not a slave obeying God because he's not a slave master. He invites us. He's like, "You master. He invites us. He's like, "You master. He invites us. He's like, "You want to do this with me? Let's do it." want to do this with me? Let's do it." want to do this with me? Let's do it." you know and and and so I think that you know and and and so I think that you know and and and so I think that whole paradigm shift it was so I say it whole paradigm shift it was so I say it whole paradigm shift it was so I say it is a truth in the Bible. I say I say is a truth in the Bible. I say I say is a truth in the Bible. I say I say quoting John that the truth will set you quoting John that the truth will set you quoting John that the truth will set you free and and it is true but the truth is free and and it is true but the truth is free and and it is true but the truth is bigger than a verse in the moment. The bigger than a verse in the moment. The bigger than a verse in the moment. The truth is heaven coming. The truth is we truth is heaven coming. The truth is we truth is heaven coming. The truth is we get to live under a king who adores us get to live under a king who adores us get to live under a king who adores us and dances with us and invites us into and dances with us and invites us into and dances with us and invites us into his work and and stays with us while his work and and stays with us while his work and and stays with us while we're doing it and actually makes us we're doing it and actually makes us we're doing it and actually makes us look way better than we are. and and look way better than we are. and and look way better than we are. and and then he looks so good because everybody then he looks so good because everybody then he looks so good because everybody knows I couldn't have done that and and knows I couldn't have done that and and knows I couldn't have done that and and you know it's just this different story you know it's just this different story you know it's just this different story that's like beautiful and fun and that's like beautiful and fun and that's like beautiful and fun and exciting and I want to be in there where exciting and I want to be in there where exciting and I want to be in there where the oxygen is not striving where the the oxygen is not striving where the the oxygen is not striving where the oxygen is grace and the oxygen is peace

oxygen is grace and the oxygen is peace oxygen is grace and the oxygen is peace and and the the things you trade and and and and the the things you trade and and and and the the things you trade and and and are um the the way you you do work and are um the the way you you do work and are um the the way you you do work there is is friendship and relationship there is is friendship and relationship there is is friendship and relationship and intimacy you know, and I just I the and intimacy you know, and I just I the and intimacy you know, and I just I the more I live there, the more I enjoy it more I live there, the more I enjoy it more I live there, the more I enjoy it all and even the hard parts. And I think all and even the hard parts. And I think all and even the hard parts. And I think that's what was the hardest part of that's what was the hardest part of that's what was the hardest part of walking through it this summer. It walking through it this summer. It walking through it this summer. It wasn't that life was hard. I knew that wasn't that life was hard. I knew that wasn't that life was hard. I knew that already, right? I'm I'm old. I knew that already, right? I'm I'm old. I knew that already, right? I'm I'm old. I knew that already. It was that he wasn't there. already. It was that he wasn't there. already. It was that he wasn't there. >> And I did. I thought he'd left. And and >> And I did. I thought he'd left. And and >> And I did. I thought he'd left. And and so now today, my freedom comes from just so now today, my freedom comes from just so now today, my freedom comes from just being with him, whatever we're doing, being with him, whatever we're doing, being with him, whatever we're doing, whether it's important or not important. whether it's important or not important. whether it's important or not important. Because who am I to even judge? I wonder Because who am I to even judge? I wonder Because who am I to even judge? I wonder if we'll get to heaven. And all the if we'll get to heaven. And all the if we'll get to heaven. And all the things we thought were important were things we thought were important were things we thought were important were actually just to get our hearts closer actually just to get our hearts closer actually just to get our hearts closer to him. to him. to him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I won't be surprised to lick, >> And I won't be surprised to lick, >> And I won't be surprised to lick, >> but because he would he would do >> but because he would he would do >> but because he would he would do something like that. Um something like that. Um something like that. Um >> so I I just it's just a whole other way >> so I I just it's just a whole other way >> so I I just it's just a whole other way of living and thinking. Did identifying of living and thinking. Did identifying of living and thinking. Did identifying the lie and then finding another king the lie and then finding another king the lie and then finding another king like stepping into the other kingdom.

like stepping into the other kingdom. like stepping into the other kingdom. You found it a long time ago, but really You found it a long time ago, but really You found it a long time ago, but really embracing it. embracing it. embracing it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And seeing a change. >> And seeing a change. >> And seeing a change. How did that impact your marriage? How did that impact your marriage? How did that impact your marriage? >> Oh, I mean >> Oh, I mean >> Oh, I mean he's my sweet husband. We uh a little he's my sweet husband. We uh a little he's my sweet husband. We uh a little perspective on us. So, we started our perspective on us. So, we started our perspective on us. So, we started our marriage really hard. We had five years marriage really hard. We had five years marriage really hard. We had five years I believe of counseling in the first 10 I believe of counseling in the first 10 I believe of counseling in the first 10 years of our marriage and it was or years of our marriage and it was or years of our marriage and it was or several year I don't know if it was all several year I don't know if it was all several year I don't know if it was all the way to five but a lot of years and the way to five but a lot of years and the way to five but a lot of years and it changed us and we really healed from it changed us and we really healed from it changed us and we really healed from a lot of our um our parts and we really a lot of our um our parts and we really a lot of our um our parts and we really knit it knit our little souls together knit it knit our little souls together knit it knit our little souls together as we would go forward. And so when I as we would go forward. And so when I as we would go forward. And so when I think about our marriage, he's my think about our marriage, he's my think about our marriage, he's my biggest advocate and believes in me so biggest advocate and believes in me so biggest advocate and believes in me so much. I I had to I've dedicated a book much. I I had to I've dedicated a book much. I I had to I've dedicated a book to him before, but I had to dedicate to him before, but I had to dedicate to him before, but I had to dedicate this one to him because he does this he this one to him because he does this he this one to him because he does this he did this for me, Carrie, in the last 30 did this for me, Carrie, in the last 30 did this for me, Carrie, in the last 30 minutes before we got on the phone. minutes before we got on the phone. minutes before we got on the phone. Something I got a hard phone call and he Something I got a hard phone call and he Something I got a hard phone call and he like re he was like, "Okay." He like re he was like, "Okay." He like re he was like, "Okay." He reinterpreted it into the narrative we reinterpreted it into the narrative we reinterpreted it into the narrative we believe. It's like he will bring me back believe. It's like he will bring me back believe. It's like he will bring me back to the the the new kingdom and to God's to the the the new kingdom and to God's to the the the new kingdom and to God's kingdom over and over again because I'll kingdom over and over again because I'll kingdom over and over again because I'll just I'll go, okay, I spend I spend an just I'll go, okay, I spend I spend an just I'll go, okay, I spend I spend an entire day living in the kingdom of this entire day living in the kingdom of this entire day living in the kingdom of this world. And some of times it's the world. And some of times it's the world. And some of times it's the kingdom of Christian publishing with the kingdom of Christian publishing with the kingdom of Christian publishing with the word Christ in there somewhere, right?

word Christ in there somewhere, right? word Christ in there somewhere, right? And it's like, I lived in the kingdom of And it's like, I lived in the kingdom of And it's like, I lived in the kingdom of the world and the pressures of this the world and the pressures of this the world and the pressures of this world. I need you just to take me on a world. I need you just to take me on a world. I need you just to take me on a walk and like what are we living for? walk and like what are we living for? walk and like what are we living for? How do we do this? Why does this not How do we do this? Why does this not How do we do this? Why does this not matter? and then he'll he'll do it for matter? and then he'll he'll do it for matter? and then he'll he'll do it for me. But that's that's important for all me. But that's that's important for all me. But that's that's important for all of us. Even if you're listening and of us. Even if you're listening and of us. Even if you're listening and you're single, like that needs to be our you're single, like that needs to be our you're single, like that needs to be our regular way of going through life that regular way of going through life that regular way of going through life that we have the people that go, "Oh, nope. we have the people that go, "Oh, nope. we have the people that go, "Oh, nope. Remember, we don't live for that. Remember, we don't live for that. Remember, we don't live for that. >> We're not we don't have to measure up >> We're not we don't have to measure up >> We're not we don't have to measure up for our worth, Jenny." So So when you for our worth, Jenny." So So when you for our worth, Jenny." So So when you when you remember it, you go, "Oh, okay. when you remember it, you go, "Oh, okay. when you remember it, you go, "Oh, okay. I still have a job I have to do and I still have a job I have to do and I still have a job I have to do and things I've got to deliver on, but I things I've got to deliver on, but I things I've got to deliver on, but I can't control the outcomes of all that can't control the outcomes of all that can't control the outcomes of all that and and I'm okay if I fail, and and I'm okay if I fail, and and I'm okay if I fail, >> right? So, he helps me remember. I can't >> right? So, he helps me remember. I can't >> right? So, he helps me remember. I can't say that it's changed our marriage say that it's changed our marriage say that it's changed our marriage because he's been so steady and he kind because he's been so steady and he kind because he's been so steady and he kind of lives that way. His identity is not of lives that way. His identity is not of lives that way. His identity is not >> that's a great place to be world >> that's a great place to be world >> that's a great place to be world >> and so he really is at peace with >> and so he really is at peace with >> and so he really is at peace with himself and it's beautiful. He he just himself and it's beautiful. He he just himself and it's beautiful. He he just he's contagious to me in that way. It's he's contagious to me in that way. It's he's contagious to me in that way. It's good. H. So people listening right now, good. H. So people listening right now, good. H. So people listening right now, there's some people who are like, "Oh, I there's some people who are like, "Oh, I there's some people who are like, "Oh, I I identified with one of the three lies.

I identified with one of the three lies. I identified with one of the three lies. I can see this at work in my life." And I can see this at work in my life." And I can see this at work in my life." And it might be a moment for them like it it might be a moment for them like it it might be a moment for them like it was for me, like it was for you of was for me, like it was for you of was for me, like it was for you of discovery. So when you discover that, discovery. So when you discover that, discovery. So when you discover that, what advice do you have for leaders what advice do you have for leaders what advice do you have for leaders listening who are just going, "Oh, I listening who are just going, "Oh, I listening who are just going, "Oh, I wonder if that's what's driving my wonder if that's what's driving my wonder if that's what's driving my behavior." What would you suggest their behavior." What would you suggest their behavior." What would you suggest their next step or two would be? next step or two would be? next step or two would be? start asking people. So I will often start asking people. So I will often start asking people. So I will often open a conversation I will often open a open a conversation I will often open a open a conversation I will often open a conversation with this line. conversation with this line. conversation with this line. I sometimes believe the lie that I have I sometimes believe the lie that I have I sometimes believe the lie that I have to I did this last night in our small to I did this last night in our small to I did this last night in our small group that I have to measure up to be group that I have to measure up to be group that I have to measure up to be worth something. How have you seen that worth something. How have you seen that worth something. How have you seen that coming into the way you've been coming into the way you've been coming into the way you've been interacting with me? So I'll have a day interacting with me? So I'll have a day interacting with me? So I'll have a day at work where I'm short with people at work where I'm short with people at work where I'm short with people where and I'll have to kind of just own where and I'll have to kind of just own where and I'll have to kind of just own it and say you know what I today I was it and say you know what I today I was it and say you know what I today I was striving like I am sorry you experienced striving like I am sorry you experienced striving like I am sorry you experienced a part of me that I am working on and I a part of me that I am working on and I a part of me that I am working on and I wish it weren't so but that was what you wish it weren't so but that was what you wish it weren't so but that was what you got today and and you know what's so got today and and you know what's so got today and and you know what's so funny is the second I apologize so it's funny is the second I apologize so it's funny is the second I apologize so it's the end of the day and I've ticked off the end of the day and I've ticked off the end of the day and I've ticked off somebody at work and I've stayed on them somebody at work and I've stayed on them somebody at work and I've stayed on them and I've pulled them into my striving at and I've pulled them into my striving at and I've pulled them into my striving at the end of the day. Um, when I apologize the end of the day. Um, when I apologize the end of the day. Um, when I apologize like that, somebody will say, like like that, somebody will say, like like that, somebody will say, like somebody just said this last week, um, somebody just said this last week, um, somebody just said this last week, um, Jenny, I want to kill you and then I Jenny, I want to kill you and then I Jenny, I want to kill you and then I want to hug you.

want to hug you. want to hug you. But that's true. Like when we just own But that's true. Like when we just own But that's true. Like when we just own it and go, you know, this is I wonder if it and go, you know, this is I wonder if it and go, you know, this is I wonder if if this is affecting me. It it helps if this is affecting me. It it helps if this is affecting me. It it helps everyone around us, right? It doesn't everyone around us, right? It doesn't everyone around us, right? It doesn't just help us. It sets us free because just help us. It sets us free because just help us. It sets us free because it's like, oh yeah, I did that all day. it's like, oh yeah, I did that all day. it's like, oh yeah, I did that all day. I really cared about this world and I I I really cared about this world and I I I really cared about this world and I I tried to make you love me. I tried to tried to make you love me. I tried to tried to make you love me. I tried to control it, right? The helpless people control it, right? The helpless people control it, right? The helpless people try to control the try to control the try to control the >> the unlovable people try to make you >> the unlovable people try to make you >> the unlovable people try to make you like them. The achieving people or the like them. The achieving people or the like them. The achieving people or the worthless people try to achieve. So, worthless people try to achieve. So, worthless people try to achieve. So, it's like whatever it is like we just it's like whatever it is like we just it's like whatever it is like we just have to kind of name it and and say it have to kind of name it and and say it have to kind of name it and and say it to the people that love us and and not to the people that love us and and not to the people that love us and and not live out of it, right? It just it's live out of it, right? It just it's live out of it, right? It just it's empty. It's so empty. And and that's the empty. It's so empty. And and that's the empty. It's so empty. And and that's the part that's so sad is he'll make you the part that's so sad is he'll make you the part that's so sad is he'll make you the enemy will make you chase things all enemy will make you chase things all enemy will make you chase things all your life. And the gift is if you can your life. And the gift is if you can your life. And the gift is if you can lose it all or realize somehow in lose it all or realize somehow in lose it all or realize somehow in drastic fashion that oh there wasn't drastic fashion that oh there wasn't drastic fashion that oh there wasn't life in it. Right? It's why the people life in it. Right? It's why the people life in it. Right? It's why the people in Hollywood are they get to the end of in Hollywood are they get to the end of in Hollywood are they get to the end of themselves because they get everything.

themselves because they get everything. themselves because they get everything. They get the fame. They get the numbers. They get the fame. They get the numbers. They get the fame. They get the numbers. They get the money. They get the house. They get the money. They get the house. They get the money. They get the house. They get it all and then they're like, They get it all and then they're like, They get it all and then they're like, "Huh? Dang it." You know, the mercy of "Huh? Dang it." You know, the mercy of "Huh? Dang it." You know, the mercy of God. This isn't it, right? God. This isn't it, right? God. This isn't it, right? >> It's the mercy of God to get everything >> It's the mercy of God to get everything >> It's the mercy of God to get everything that you think would make you happy and that you think would make you happy and that you think would make you happy and it not to make you happy. And it's the it not to make you happy. And it's the it not to make you happy. And it's the mercy of God to lose it all and to see mercy of God to lose it all and to see mercy of God to lose it all and to see that you didn't need it. And so either that you didn't need it. And so either that you didn't need it. And so either way, but but in the middle, most of us way, but but in the middle, most of us way, but but in the middle, most of us are in the middle, are in the middle, are in the middle, >> it's not making you happy. You already >> it's not making you happy. You already >> it's not making you happy. You already know it, you know. So, so just to go, I know it, you know. So, so just to go, I know it, you know. So, so just to go, I get to stop. It really is a a different get to stop. It really is a a different get to stop. It really is a a different way of your brain working. So, you have way of your brain working. So, you have way of your brain working. So, you have to build new pathways. You have to these to build new pathways. You have to these to build new pathways. You have to these are rep repetitive thoughts that have are rep repetitive thoughts that have are rep repetitive thoughts that have been with you so long that interrupting been with you so long that interrupting been with you so long that interrupting them is not enough. I wrote a book them is not enough. I wrote a book them is not enough. I wrote a book called get out of your head. called get out of your head. called get out of your head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the principle the foundational >> And the principle the foundational >> And the principle the foundational principle was the same. In fact, these principle was the same. In fact, these principle was the same. In fact, these three lies were mentioned very briefly three lies were mentioned very briefly three lies were mentioned very briefly in there. But the reason I knew after I in there. But the reason I knew after I in there. But the reason I knew after I finished get out of your head I would finished get out of your head I would finished get out of your head I would write this book. I've known since that write this book. I've known since that write this book. I've known since that book I would write it is because I book I would write it is because I book I would write it is because I different than get out of your head different than get out of your head different than get out of your head which is interrupt the thought change which is interrupt the thought change which is interrupt the thought change your you know gratitude. it gives like your you know gratitude. it gives like your you know gratitude. it gives like all these ways to interrupt thoughts. I all these ways to interrupt thoughts. I all these ways to interrupt thoughts. I was like, but some of them was like, but some of them was like, but some of them >> have been there so long >> have been there so long >> have been there so long >> it it doesn't work. And so that's that's >> it it doesn't work. And so that's that's >> it it doesn't work. And so that's that's what this book talks to is the is the what this book talks to is the is the what this book talks to is the is the core things that have been with you so core things that have been with you so core things that have been with you so long long long >> that just interrupting the thought isn't >> that just interrupting the thought isn't >> that just interrupting the thought isn't enough.

enough. enough. >> One of the things that's really helped >> One of the things that's really helped >> One of the things that's really helped me and I just love your comment or me and I just love your comment or me and I just love your comment or observation or something that's really observation or something that's really observation or something that's really helped you in the journey but through a helped you in the journey but through a helped you in the journey but through a lot of therapy, a lot of prayer, a lot lot of therapy, a lot of prayer, a lot lot of therapy, a lot of prayer, a lot of self-reflection. of self-reflection. of self-reflection. Um, you know, two of the ways that my Um, you know, two of the ways that my Um, you know, two of the ways that my I'm never done, it's never enough, I'm never done, it's never enough, I'm never done, it's never enough, performance equals love would show up. performance equals love would show up. performance equals love would show up. It would show up in preaching sometimes, It would show up in preaching sometimes, It would show up in preaching sometimes, and that's another story for another and that's another story for another and that's another story for another day, but it would show up in, oh, if I day, but it would show up in, oh, if I day, but it would show up in, oh, if I and because I have OCD tendencies, if I and because I have OCD tendencies, if I and because I have OCD tendencies, if I could just mow the lawn one more time, could just mow the lawn one more time, could just mow the lawn one more time, or my car can never be clean enough, or my car can never be clean enough, or my car can never be clean enough, I'll just go wash it again. And then, I'll just go wash it again. And then, I'll just go wash it again. And then, you know, through counseling, prayer, you know, through counseling, prayer, you know, through counseling, prayer, and also my amazing wife, who you know, and also my amazing wife, who you know, and also my amazing wife, who you know, Tony in particular helped me see that Tony in particular helped me see that Tony in particular helped me see that that was getting in the way of that was getting in the way of that was getting in the way of relationships, relationships with her, relationships, relationships with her, relationships, relationships with her, with my kids, with people close to me. I with my kids, with people close to me. I with my kids, with people close to me. I I'm not going to go tonight. I'm going I'm not going to go tonight. I'm going I'm not going to go tonight. I'm going to detail the car, right? And it sounds to detail the car, right? And it sounds to detail the car, right? And it sounds so stupid, but I got to the point where so stupid, but I got to the point where so stupid, but I got to the point where I could look at myself almost like a I could look at myself almost like a I could look at myself almost like a third party going, "Oh, that's something third party going, "Oh, that's something third party going, "Oh, that's something Crazy Carrie would do. Crazy Carrie Crazy Carrie would do. Crazy Carrie Crazy Carrie would do. Crazy Carrie would cut the grass one more time." when would cut the grass one more time." when would cut the grass one more time." when it only grew like a quarter of a it only grew like a quarter of a it only grew like a quarter of a millimeter since yesterday. It doesn't millimeter since yesterday. It doesn't millimeter since yesterday. It doesn't really need to be done. And that's given really need to be done. And that's given really need to be done. And that's given me distance to kind of go, "Oh, Crazy me distance to kind of go, "Oh, Crazy me distance to kind of go, "Oh, Crazy Carrie would drive his team enough to Carrie would drive his team enough to Carrie would drive his team enough to the point where they all want to quit or the point where they all want to quit or the point where they all want to quit or they can't possibly keep up or mow the they can't possibly keep up or mow the they can't possibly keep up or mow the lawn one more time or clean an already lawn one more time or clean an already lawn one more time or clean an already mint conditioned car."

mint conditioned car." mint conditioned car." >> Let me give you a new phrase. Let me >> Let me give you a new phrase. Let me >> Let me give you a new phrase. Let me give you a new phrase. give you a new phrase. give you a new phrase. >> Yeah. Yeah. Give me a new phrase. >> Yeah. Yeah. Give me a new phrase. >> Yeah. Yeah. Give me a new phrase. >> What age do you remember feeling it for >> What age do you remember feeling it for >> What age do you remember feeling it for the first time? feeling that like the first time? feeling that like the first time? feeling that like >> feeling that I have to do I have to hit >> feeling that I have to do I have to hit >> feeling that I have to do I have to hit the mark. the mark. the mark. >> You know, I don't have a galvanizing >> You know, I don't have a galvanizing >> You know, I don't have a galvanizing moment where I was in a parent's lap or moment where I was in a parent's lap or moment where I was in a parent's lap or anything like that, but I would probably anything like that, but I would probably anything like that, but I would probably say seven or eight seems to resonate for say seven or eight seems to resonate for say seven or eight seems to resonate for some reason. some reason. some reason. >> Something at seven or eight that would >> Something at seven or eight that would >> Something at seven or eight that would have made you feel that way. have made you feel that way. have made you feel that way. >> Um doing stuff around the house and >> Um doing stuff around the house and >> Um doing stuff around the house and getting praised. Like, getting praised. Like, getting praised. Like, >> okay, >> okay, >> okay, >> if it was my mom was big into dusting >> if it was my mom was big into dusting >> if it was my mom was big into dusting the furniture, so that was something the the furniture, so that was something the the furniture, so that was something the kids did. Okay. So, let's call in next kids did. Okay. So, let's call in next kids did. Okay. So, let's call in next time instead of crazy because it's not time instead of crazy because it's not time instead of crazy because it's not crazy. crazy. crazy. >> It actually I I'm I'm really >> It actually I I'm I'm really >> It actually I I'm I'm really interrupting you on purpose. I'm not interrupting you on purpose. I'm not interrupting you on purpose. I'm not that that that >> sure. Sure. Sure. >> sure. Sure. Sure. >> sure. Sure. Sure. >> I'm actually interrupting you on purpose >> I'm actually interrupting you on purpose >> I'm actually interrupting you on purpose because I want you to see that it's not because I want you to see that it's not because I want you to see that it's not crazy. It makes perfect sense crazy. It makes perfect sense crazy. It makes perfect sense >> for the season it was in. It made a lot >> for the season it was in. It made a lot >> for the season it was in. It made a lot of sense. of sense. of sense. >> It makes perfect sense today, Carrie, >> It makes perfect sense today, Carrie, >> It makes perfect sense today, Carrie, >> because you get praised. I I just want >> because you get praised. I I just want >> because you get praised. I I just want to say that little I let's call it to say that little I let's call it to say that little I let's call it instead. Let's call it seven-year-old instead. Let's call it seven-year-old instead. Let's call it seven-year-old Carrie, okay?

Carrie, okay? Carrie, okay? >> And let's say seven-year-old Carrie >> And let's say seven-year-old Carrie >> And let's say seven-year-old Carrie freaking love that feeling. Of course, freaking love that feeling. Of course, freaking love that feeling. Of course, you did like that. That makes perfect you did like that. That makes perfect you did like that. That makes perfect sense that you would do something and sense that you would do something and sense that you would do something and get rewarded and praised and that your get rewarded and praised and that your get rewarded and praised and that your seven-year-old heart would feel happy seven-year-old heart would feel happy seven-year-old heart would feel happy and you would want to do it again. And and you would want to do it again. And and you would want to do it again. And probably, I mean, I won't completely put probably, I mean, I won't completely put probably, I mean, I won't completely put you on the spot unless you want me to, you on the spot unless you want me to, you on the spot unless you want me to, but there's also probably a but there's also probably a but there's also probably a seven-year-old Carrie that didn't get seven-year-old Carrie that didn't get seven-year-old Carrie that didn't get something that he deeply needed. And something that he deeply needed. And something that he deeply needed. And that So, it's like, okay, if there's a that So, it's like, okay, if there's a that So, it's like, okay, if there's a if there's a part of you that doesn't if there's a part of you that doesn't if there's a part of you that doesn't that has hurt or rejection at seven and that has hurt or rejection at seven and that has hurt or rejection at seven and then you find the way to get praised, it then you find the way to get praised, it then you find the way to get praised, it is not the crazy part of you at all. is not the crazy part of you at all. is not the crazy part of you at all. It's the part that makes the most sense It's the part that makes the most sense It's the part that makes the most sense because everything in your world has because everything in your world has because everything in your world has told you that told you that told you that >> and from the time you were seven and >> and from the time you were seven and >> and from the time you were seven and probably before. So, I just want to say probably before. So, I just want to say probably before. So, I just want to say that I interrupt you because it it makes that I interrupt you because it it makes that I interrupt you because it it makes me emotional cuz I'm like, I actually me emotional cuz I'm like, I actually me emotional cuz I'm like, I actually think that that part of you makes think that that part of you makes think that that part of you makes perfect sense and isn't crazy at all and perfect sense and isn't crazy at all and perfect sense and isn't crazy at all and is is still is is still is is still doing everything you can to doing everything you can to doing everything you can to not feel the negative and to feel the not feel the negative and to feel the not feel the negative and to feel the positive. And so are all of us.

positive. And so are all of us. positive. And so are all of us. >> And so are all of us. And and so I think >> And so are all of us. And and so I think >> And so are all of us. And and so I think it's important like that that you feel it's important like that that you feel it's important like that that you feel and that every person listening feels a and that every person listening feels a and that every person listening feels a lot of grace that this was lot of grace that this was lot of grace that this was indoctrination like this wasn't sin. indoctrination like this wasn't sin. indoctrination like this wasn't sin. This wasn't and not that it didn't turn This wasn't and not that it didn't turn This wasn't and not that it didn't turn into it at some point. into it at some point. into it at some point. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But it wasn't it wasn't sin. You're not >> But it wasn't it wasn't sin. You're not >> But it wasn't it wasn't sin. You're not a bad person because performing feels a bad person because performing feels a bad person because performing feels good and and you know the unknowns of good and and you know the unknowns of good and and you know the unknowns of relationships feel hard. It's like relationships feel hard. It's like relationships feel hard. It's like that's just that's just that's just >> you're not crazy. It's just this is this >> you're not crazy. It's just this is this >> you're not crazy. It's just this is this is life and and I think you know we are is life and and I think you know we are is life and and I think you know we are blessed to be people who um who can you blessed to be people who um who can you blessed to be people who um who can you know have the margin and the time to go know have the margin and the time to go know have the margin and the time to go look under the hood and go look under the hood and go look under the hood and go maybe maybe I don't have to do it you maybe maybe I don't have to do it you maybe maybe I don't have to do it you know like maybe I could I could still know like maybe I could I could still know like maybe I could I could still you know if if you were still sick in you know if if you were still sick in you know if if you were still sick in the hospital like have value you know the hospital like have value you know the hospital like have value you know like Mhm. like Mhm. like Mhm. >> You know, when you're not doing it, cuz >> You know, when you're not doing it, cuz >> You know, when you're not doing it, cuz one day that will be all of us, right?

one day that will be all of us, right? one day that will be all of us, right? And And And >> and I think that's ultimately what we're >> and I think that's ultimately what we're >> and I think that's ultimately what we're going for is like we don't want to be going for is like we don't want to be going for is like we don't want to be the people that live out of our the people that live out of our the people that live out of our >> our seven-year-old, 12year-old broken >> our seven-year-old, 12year-old broken >> our seven-year-old, 12year-old broken parts, right? We want to be people that parts, right? We want to be people that parts, right? We want to be people that >> that live out of um freedom and joy and >> that live out of um freedom and joy and >> that live out of um freedom and joy and peace and peace and peace and >> and that. >> and that. >> and that. >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, when when a >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, when when a >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, when when a behavior stops serving you, it has a behavior stops serving you, it has a behavior stops serving you, it has a destructive side as well as a a healthy destructive side as well as a a healthy destructive side as well as a a healthy side. And so, yes, it's good to look at side. And so, yes, it's good to look at side. And so, yes, it's good to look at that now and go, "Oh, yeah, that's not that now and go, "Oh, yeah, that's not that now and go, "Oh, yeah, that's not going to make me" It's kind of like that going to make me" It's kind of like that going to make me" It's kind of like that rich and famous thing you talked about, rich and famous thing you talked about, rich and famous thing you talked about, like, like, like, >> oh yeah, another thousand dollars in the >> oh yeah, another thousand dollars in the >> oh yeah, another thousand dollars in the bank isn't going to make me feel any bank isn't going to make me feel any bank isn't going to make me feel any better or million if you're rich. I I better or million if you're rich. I I better or million if you're rich. I I feel the way I feel. and you know, feel the way I feel. and you know, feel the way I feel. and you know, shorter grass, a cleaner car, whatever shorter grass, a cleaner car, whatever shorter grass, a cleaner car, whatever is not it's going to make me feel this is not it's going to make me feel this is not it's going to make me feel this good, but the relationships are going to good, but the relationships are going to good, but the relationships are going to make me feel that good. And make me feel that good. And make me feel that good. And >> I need to prioritize. Jenny, I really do >> I need to prioritize. Jenny, I really do >> I need to prioritize. Jenny, I really do love your book and uh I I I think I shot love your book and uh I I I think I shot love your book and uh I I I think I shot you a text. I just loved reading it. It you a text. I just loved reading it. It you a text. I just loved reading it. It was a lot of fun. Is there another key was a lot of fun. Is there another key was a lot of fun. Is there another key concept or a question that I haven't concept or a question that I haven't concept or a question that I haven't asked you that you want to touch on asked you that you want to touch on asked you that you want to touch on before we wrap up today? Yeah. I mean, I before we wrap up today? Yeah. I mean, I before we wrap up today? Yeah. I mean, I would just say, let me just keep going would just say, let me just keep going would just say, let me just keep going on what I just said of grace that on what I just said of grace that on what I just said of grace that >> we are people who the ones that usually >> we are people who the ones that usually >> we are people who the ones that usually pick up self-help books and those that pick up self-help books and those that pick up self-help books and those that listen to your podcast, Carrie, we are listen to your podcast, Carrie, we are listen to your podcast, Carrie, we are people striving to be better, right? And people striving to be better, right? And people striving to be better, right? And and that's okay. But let me just put

and that's okay. But let me just put and that's okay. But let me just put underneath all of it that that that God underneath all of it that that that God underneath all of it that that that God deeply wants our freedom. And and I just deeply wants our freedom. And and I just deeply wants our freedom. And and I just think gosh, if there was a lie that I think gosh, if there was a lie that I think gosh, if there was a lie that I was believing that I didn't even know I was believing that I didn't even know I was believing that I didn't even know I had, had, had, wouldn't I want to know it? Wouldn't I wouldn't I want to know it? Wouldn't I wouldn't I want to know it? Wouldn't I want to know that there's something want to know that there's something want to know that there's something underneath driving me that's hurting my underneath driving me that's hurting my underneath driving me that's hurting my marriage, that's hurting the people that marriage, that's hurting the people that marriage, that's hurting the people that work for me? You know, I would want to work for me? You know, I would want to work for me? You know, I would want to know what it is. And so my hope is that know what it is. And so my hope is that know what it is. And so my hope is that as people work through this and they see as people work through this and they see as people work through this and they see what it is, not that they would feel what it is, not that they would feel what it is, not that they would feel shamed, that they would feel angry, shamed, that they would feel angry, shamed, that they would feel angry, right? That they would feel like, uh-uh, right? That they would feel like, uh-uh, right? That they would feel like, uh-uh, no more. Because that's how I feel. no more. Because that's how I feel. no more. Because that's how I feel. That's how I felt when my daughter said That's how I felt when my daughter said That's how I felt when my daughter said what she said. I just felt angry. Um, so what she said. I just felt angry. Um, so what she said. I just felt angry. Um, so I do think we should feel angry, but I I do think we should feel angry, but I I do think we should feel angry, but I do not think we should feel um shame do not think we should feel um shame do not think we should feel um shame like how could I believe this or how like how could I believe this or how like how could I believe this or how could this shake my whole life? could this shake my whole life? could this shake my whole life? >> It's like no, there's a good the enemy >> It's like no, there's a good the enemy >> It's like no, there's a good the enemy is good.

is good. is good. >> And and so we we look for his scheme in >> And and so we we look for his scheme in >> And and so we we look for his scheme in our life the way he has whispered lies our life the way he has whispered lies our life the way he has whispered lies to us our whole lives and we name it. We to us our whole lives and we name it. We to us our whole lives and we name it. We say it out loud to someone and we begin say it out loud to someone and we begin say it out loud to someone and we begin to find a new way to live. And it's so to find a new way to live. And it's so to find a new way to live. And it's so fun because lies are invitations. fun because lies are invitations. fun because lies are invitations. They're invitations They're invitations They're invitations >> to me. >> to me. >> to me. >> Think about it. >> Think about it. >> Think about it. >> They're invitations to the other kingdom >> They're invitations to the other kingdom >> They're invitations to the other kingdom because because because >> the truth. >> the truth. >> the truth. >> Yeah. Because when I feel like I can't >> Yeah. Because when I feel like I can't >> Yeah. Because when I feel like I can't measure up, when I feel unlovable, when measure up, when I feel unlovable, when measure up, when I feel unlovable, when I feel helpless and out of control, I feel helpless and out of control, I feel helpless and out of control, those are gifts for me to go, I don't I those are gifts for me to go, I don't I those are gifts for me to go, I don't I don't want to live here anymore. don't want to live here anymore. don't want to live here anymore. >> I've been living here. You kind of >> I've been living here. You kind of >> I've been living here. You kind of notice. You're like, I've been living notice. You're like, I've been living notice. You're like, I've been living here. here. here. >> I want to go home. I want to go back to >> I want to go home. I want to go back to >> I want to go home. I want to go back to Narnia where, you know, Alen is and do Narnia where, you know, Alen is and do Narnia where, you know, Alen is and do what he's called me to do and not worry what he's called me to do and not worry what he's called me to do and not worry about this and the hustle and all this. about this and the hustle and all this. about this and the hustle and all this. So, it's an invitation and I hope that's So, it's an invitation and I hope that's So, it's an invitation and I hope that's what people feel. what people feel. what people feel. Kenny, I'm really grateful for you. I'm Kenny, I'm really grateful for you. I'm Kenny, I'm really grateful for you. I'm really grateful that you are so honest, really grateful that you are so honest, really grateful that you are so honest, that you are transparent about what that you are transparent about what that you are transparent about what you're going through. I got to ask you, you're going through. I got to ask you, you're going through. I got to ask you, how's Zach? Is he doing okay right now?

how's Zach? Is he doing okay right now? how's Zach? Is he doing okay right now? >> Oh, he's doing great. >> Oh, he's doing great. >> Oh, he's doing great. >> Good. >> Good. >> Good. >> Yeah, he got an all clear after three >> Yeah, he got an all clear after three >> Yeah, he got an all clear after three months of scary, scary, scary. Um, months of scary, scary, scary. Um, months of scary, scary, scary. Um, >> he got an all clear. So, we're we're >> he got an all clear. So, we're we're >> he got an all clear. So, we're we're great. We're enjoying our freedom again, great. We're enjoying our freedom again, great. We're enjoying our freedom again, travel and all that. travel and all that. travel and all that. >> But as my counselor, Dr. C says, the bad >> But as my counselor, Dr. C says, the bad >> But as my counselor, Dr. C says, the bad times are coming. So get ready and have times are coming. So get ready and have times are coming. So get ready and have enough margin. I'm like, no, no, no, no, enough margin. I'm like, no, no, no, no, enough margin. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That was my little trial and it's no. That was my little trial and it's no. That was my little trial and it's over now and we're just going to smooth over now and we're just going to smooth over now and we're just going to smooth sailing ahead and and again, you know, sailing ahead and and again, you know, sailing ahead and and again, you know, the conversation we're having too, we the conversation we're having too, we the conversation we're having too, we are very privileged. We talked about the are very privileged. We talked about the are very privileged. We talked about the global church. I mean, you look at the global church. I mean, you look at the global church. I mean, you look at the problems problems problems >> people in the global church are facing >> people in the global church are facing >> people in the global church are facing compared to what I'm facing or you're compared to what I'm facing or you're compared to what I'm facing or you're facing. And you know, not to rank them, facing. And you know, not to rank them, facing. And you know, not to rank them, but but but >> uh people people do have a lot of >> uh people people do have a lot of >> uh people people do have a lot of struggles. And I think you helped some struggles. And I think you helped some struggles. And I think you helped some of that 24% who's maybe still thinking of that 24% who's maybe still thinking of that 24% who's maybe still thinking about cashing it in about cashing it in about cashing it in >> maybe go, okay, I'm going to have >> maybe go, okay, I'm going to have >> maybe go, okay, I'm going to have another look at this. I'm going to look another look at this. I'm going to look another look at this. I'm going to look under the hood and see if there's some under the hood and see if there's some under the hood and see if there's some other drivers. So, highly recommend the other drivers. So, highly recommend the other drivers. So, highly recommend the book. It's called The Lie You Don't Know book. It's called The Lie You Don't Know book. It's called The Lie You Don't Know You Believe. It's out everywhere. Um, You Believe. It's out everywhere. Um, You Believe. It's out everywhere. Um, Jenny, if people want to track with the Jenny, if people want to track with the Jenny, if people want to track with the latest with you, where's the easiest latest with you, where's the easiest latest with you, where's the easiest place to keep up online?

place to keep up online? place to keep up online? >> Sure. Jennyallen.com. Everything's >> Sure. Jennyallen.com. Everything's >> Sure. Jennyallen.com. Everything's there. If gathering, our next gather 27. there. If gathering, our next gather 27. there. If gathering, our next gather 27. We love Yeah, we'd love for everybody We love Yeah, we'd love for everybody We love Yeah, we'd love for everybody that listens to you to be a part of it. that listens to you to be a part of it. that listens to you to be a part of it. >> Well, well, I'm definitely part of that >> Well, well, I'm definitely part of that >> Well, well, I'm definitely part of that tribe and looking forward to seeing you tribe and looking forward to seeing you tribe and looking forward to seeing you again in person soon. Thank you so much again in person soon. Thank you so much again in person soon. Thank you so much for your for your for your >> openness, your wisdom, and your >> openness, your wisdom, and your >> openness, your wisdom, and your encouragement today. encouragement today. encouragement today. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Well, I hope that kind of vulnerability >> Well, I hope that kind of vulnerability >> Well, I hope that kind of vulnerability really helps you in your walk. You know, really helps you in your walk. You know, really helps you in your walk. You know, we're really all walking the same road, we're really all walking the same road, we're really all walking the same road, and I love it when guests are as and I love it when guests are as and I love it when guests are as transparent as Jenny. We mentioned a transparent as Jenny. We mentioned a transparent as Jenny. We mentioned a couple of things in the show notes, and couple of things in the show notes, and couple of things in the show notes, and if you want more information, including if you want more information, including if you want more information, including everything we talked about, Jenny's everything we talked about, Jenny's everything we talked about, Jenny's book, the other books, you can get them book, the other books, you can get them book, the other books, you can get them in the Art of Leadership Academy. So, in the Art of Leadership Academy. So, in the Art of Leadership Academy. So, you can sign up for free, join over you can sign up for free, join over you can sign up for free, join over 17,000 leaders who have done that. You 17,000 leaders who have done that. You 17,000 leaders who have done that. You can go to the art of can go to the art of can go to the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com where you can register for free today. where you can register for free today. where you can register for free today. you'll find the show notes inside there you'll find the show notes inside there you'll find the show notes inside there as well as some really riveting as well as some really riveting as well as some really riveting conversation around all of our episodes conversation around all of our episodes conversation around all of our episodes and uh you can also just click the link and uh you can also just click the link and uh you can also just click the link in the description of this episode. So in the description of this episode. So in the description of this episode. So hopefully you enjoyed that and if you hopefully you enjoyed that and if you hopefully you enjoyed that and if you would leave a rating and review that would leave a rating and review that would leave a rating and review that makes a big difference. The algorithm makes a big difference. The algorithm makes a big difference. The algorithm kind of takes notes. We're already you kind of takes notes. We're already you kind of takes notes. We're already you know one of the bigger podcast but as know one of the bigger podcast but as know one of the bigger podcast but as you share it with more we can do a you share it with more we can do a you share it with more we can do a better job. I sat down with Carl Lent in better job. I sat down with Carl Lent in better job. I sat down with Carl Lent in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we have that Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we have that Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we have that conversation with you next time on the conversation with you next time on the conversation with you next time on the podcast. I'm very excited to bring that podcast. I'm very excited to bring that podcast. I'm very excited to bring that to you. Carl and I had a great

to you. Carl and I had a great to you. Carl and I had a great conversation. Also, coming up, we're conversation. Also, coming up, we're conversation. Also, coming up, we're going to talk about digital church. We going to talk about digital church. We going to talk about digital church. We have Arthur Brooks. Man, I love Arthur have Arthur Brooks. Man, I love Arthur have Arthur Brooks. Man, I love Arthur Brooks near AL and a whole lot more. Brooks near AL and a whole lot more. Brooks near AL and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. I hope Thank you so much for listening. I hope Thank you so much for listening. I hope our time together today helped you our time together today helped you our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.