The Lost Superpower Every Leader Needs to Recover

This is true as well neurologically. So This is true as well neurologically. So again, as part of Spark, I had this the again, as part of Spark, I had this the again, as part of Spark, I had this the joy and the privilege of researching joy and the privilege of researching joy and the privilege of researching some of this stuff. And I I spent some some of this stuff. And I I spent some some of this stuff. And I I spent some time with a brain scientist, fascinating time with a brain scientist, fascinating time with a brain scientist, fascinating guy who specializes in creativity and guy who specializes in creativity and guy who specializes in creativity and the brain. And he talks about how the the brain. And he talks about how the the brain. And he talks about how the default mode networks are parts of your default mode networks are parts of your default mode networks are parts of your brain that are responsible for brain that are responsible for brain that are responsible for creativity. And you can map this. So creativity. And you can map this. So creativity. And you can map this. So cool. Now we can last 10 years, we've cool. Now we can last 10 years, we've cool. Now we can last 10 years, we've been able to actually map brain activity been able to actually map brain activity been able to actually map brain activity in a really fun way. And one of the in a really fun way. And one of the in a really fun way. And one of the things that emerges from this, and this things that emerges from this, and this things that emerges from this, and this is relevant to the age of AI as well, is is relevant to the age of AI as well, is is relevant to the age of AI as well, is that the brain actually comes alive that the brain actually comes alive that the brain actually comes alive when you're doing nothing. Welcome to when you're doing nothing. Welcome to when you're doing nothing. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. So glad you joined us today. Welcome to So glad you joined us today. Welcome to So glad you joined us today. Welcome to all of you who are new. I really hope all of you who are new. I really hope all of you who are new. I really hope our time together today helps you thrive our time together today helps you thrive our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, today we in life and leadership. Well, today we in life and leadership. Well, today we are unlocking creativity. Al Gordon are unlocking creativity. Al Gordon are unlocking creativity. Al Gordon joins me. We talk about why creativity joins me. We talk about why creativity joins me. We talk about why creativity is the church's lost superpower. We talk is the church's lost superpower. We talk is the church's lost superpower. We talk about what's going on in England, the about what's going on in England, the about what's going on in England, the revival there, the connection between revival there, the connection between revival there, the connection between creativity and young adults who are creativity and young adults who are creativity and young adults who are coming flocking to Christianity. Why coming flocking to Christianity. Why coming flocking to Christianity. Why stress is killing your imagination? How stress is killing your imagination? How stress is killing your imagination? How to get out of that spiral? And how to to get out of that spiral? And how to to get out of that spiral? And how to unlock creativity in your church? What unlock creativity in your church? What unlock creativity in your church? What if you have a community of creatives if you have a community of creatives if you have a community of creatives that is completely untapped? And what that is completely untapped? And what that is completely untapped? And what would that do to your ministry? What would that do to your ministry? What would that do to your ministry? What would that do to your your mission? What would that do to your your mission? What would that do to your your mission? What would that do to the world? We're going would that do to the world? We're going would that do to the world? We're going to talk about all of that today. Al to talk about all of that today. Al to talk about all of that today. Al Gordon leads Saint, a thriving church on Gordon leads Saint, a thriving church on Gordon leads Saint, a thriving church on the east side of London. He's the the east side of London. He's the the east side of London. He's the founder of Renaissance, a global founder of Renaissance, a global founder of Renaissance, a global movement empowering churches to become movement empowering churches to become movement empowering churches to become cathedrals of creativity and he's cathedrals of creativity and he's cathedrals of creativity and he's heavily involved with alpha and a whole heavily involved with alpha and a whole heavily involved with alpha and a whole lot more. So, why don't we dive into my

lot more. So, why don't we dive into my lot more. So, why don't we dive into my conversation with Al Gordon. Al, it's conversation with Al Gordon. Al, it's conversation with Al Gordon. Al, it's good to have you back and I want to good to have you back and I want to good to have you back and I want to start with your mission. And I like the start with your mission. And I like the start with your mission. And I like the way it's phrased to bring hope to the way it's phrased to bring hope to the way it's phrased to bring hope to the 99% 99% 99% >> right >> right >> right >> of people who don't attend religious >> of people who don't attend religious >> of people who don't attend religious services in the neighborhood which is services in the neighborhood which is services in the neighborhood which is insane. I mean insane. I mean insane. I mean >> 20 30 40% of America still goes to >> 20 30 40% of America still goes to >> 20 30 40% of America still goes to church or claims to go to church church or claims to go to church church or claims to go to church >> even though the actual percentage might >> even though the actual percentage might >> even though the actual percentage might be lower but like 1% in the UK than be lower but like 1% in the UK than be lower but like 1% in the UK than London. London. London. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Well, it's a funny it's a funny >> Wow. Well, it's a funny it's a funny >> Wow. Well, it's a funny it's a funny statistic because it doesn't indicate statistic because it doesn't indicate statistic because it doesn't indicate lack of spiritual hunger. Like, if you lack of spiritual hunger. Like, if you lack of spiritual hunger. Like, if you were to map spiritual hunger and belief were to map spiritual hunger and belief were to map spiritual hunger and belief in God, in God, in God, >> it's just the church has moved so far >> it's just the church has moved so far >> it's just the church has moved so far from where people actually are that from where people actually are that from where people actually are that we've got some bridge building to do and we've got some bridge building to do and we've got some bridge building to do and some catching up to do. So, um that was some catching up to do. So, um that was some catching up to do. So, um that was like 10 years ago. We planted saint and like 10 years ago. We planted saint and like 10 years ago. We planted saint and um literally one less than 1% of the um literally one less than 1% of the um literally one less than 1% of the church of the neighborhood attended um church of the neighborhood attended um church of the neighborhood attended um Anglican parish worship. You know, Anglican parish worship. You know, Anglican parish worship. You know, churches that have been here for churches that have been here for churches that have been here for hundreds of years. I mean, you know, hundreds of years. I mean, you know, hundreds of years. I mean, you know, when when you come and hang out in when when you come and hang out in when when you come and hang out in London, I'll take you to visit our London, I'll take you to visit our London, I'll take you to visit our original church building. And it's original church building. And it's original church building. And it's always a flex when I'm with my friends always a flex when I'm with my friends always a flex when I'm with my friends from across the pond. It's like that was from across the pond. It's like that was from across the pond. It's like that was like 750 years old this year, you know, like 750 years old this year, you know, like 750 years old this year, you know, the original building. So, we the original building. So, we the original building. So, we >> crazy when you go to London and >> crazy when you go to London and >> crazy when you go to London and >> you know, but hey, >> you know, but hey, >> you know, but hey, >> it's like the Tower of London. I last >> it's like the Tower of London. I last >> it's like the Tower of London. I last time I was there.

time I was there. time I was there. >> FYI, old buildings are a nightmare. So >> FYI, old buildings are a nightmare. So >> FYI, old buildings are a nightmare. So yeah, definitely all these old buildings yeah, definitely all these old buildings yeah, definitely all these old buildings are kind of from a time when everyone are kind of from a time when everyone are kind of from a time when everyone used to attend church and the culture used to attend church and the culture used to attend church and the culture just moved. It's like the sheep have just moved. It's like the sheep have just moved. It's like the sheep have moved on the hill. So we got to go to moved on the hill. So we got to go to moved on the hill. So we got to go to them. We got to go to where they are. So them. We got to go to where they are. So them. We got to go to where they are. So we've just seen God do amazing things. I we've just seen God do amazing things. I we've just seen God do amazing things. I think that demographic is it' be think that demographic is it' be think that demographic is it' be interesting to to repole it now because interesting to to repole it now because interesting to to repole it now because I think we're seeing many people come to I think we're seeing many people come to I think we're seeing many people come to church now and church is popping up, church now and church is popping up, church now and church is popping up, people being reached and the spiritual people being reached and the spiritual people being reached and the spiritual hunger hunger hunger >> is is the demographic you want to watch, >> is is the demographic you want to watch, >> is is the demographic you want to watch, right? That's the really exciting one. right? That's the really exciting one. right? That's the really exciting one. So yeah, it's encouraging. So yeah, it's encouraging. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Well, I was going to say, you know, >> Well, I was going to say, you know, >> Well, I was going to say, you know, unfortunately there was some bad data in unfortunately there was some bad data in unfortunately there was some bad data in the big report that came out about the big report that came out about the big report that came out about revival, the quiet revival in England. revival, the quiet revival in England. revival, the quiet revival in England. Um, do you have any current data on Um, do you have any current data on Um, do you have any current data on whether the surge back to church and the whether the surge back to church and the whether the surge back to church and the long lines have actually made a long lines have actually made a long lines have actually made a statistical difference or we're waiting statistical difference or we're waiting statistical difference or we're waiting for that report? for that report? for that report? >> Yeah, everyone, it's very interesting. >> Yeah, everyone, it's very interesting. >> Yeah, everyone, it's very interesting. the quiet revival data point which is the quiet revival data point which is the quiet revival data point which is from Yuggov which is our national from Yuggov which is our national from Yuggov which is our national polling agency um was withdrawn because polling agency um was withdrawn because polling agency um was withdrawn because they weren't sure of the accuracy of the they weren't sure of the accuracy of the they weren't sure of the accuracy of the d the entire data set. Now what we don't d the entire data set. Now what we don't d the entire data set. Now what we don't know is was it wildly off or not all we know is was it wildly off or not all we know is was it wildly off or not all we know it's like it's like testing a know it's like it's like testing a know it's like it's like testing a vaccine. I suspect the data is probably vaccine. I suspect the data is probably vaccine. I suspect the data is probably quite accurate but probably unable to be quite accurate but probably unable to be quite accurate but probably unable to be scientifically tracked and these things scientifically tracked and these things scientifically tracked and these things are really clinical and important you are really clinical and important you are really clinical and important you get them right and it's right that we we get them right and it's right that we we get them right and it's right that we we don't kind of um exaggerate we have true don't kind of um exaggerate we have true don't kind of um exaggerate we have true to you know facts are our friends but I to you know facts are our friends but I to you know facts are our friends but I think the there are probably eight or think the there are probably eight or think the there are probably eight or nine data points um that are really nine data points um that are really nine data points um that are really encouraging when you look at them in encouraging when you look at them in encouraging when you look at them in terms of the cultural moment we're in um terms of the cultural moment we're in um terms of the cultural moment we're in um even if you remove that one we are even if you remove that one we are even if you remove that one we are seeing church growth that is really

seeing church growth that is really seeing church growth that is really exciting in our local church we've seen exciting in our local church we've seen exciting in our local church we've seen same you know growth from 10 years ago same you know growth from 10 years ago same you know growth from 10 years ago we only had 20 or 30 people as a new we only had 20 or 30 people as a new we only had 20 or 30 people as a new church plant and now we'd be several church plant and now we'd be several church plant and now we'd be several thousand and we're seeing that more thousand and we're seeing that more thousand and we're seeing that more baptisms last year than in the previous baptisms last year than in the previous baptisms last year than in the previous 5 years cumulative so we're seeing God 5 years cumulative so we're seeing God 5 years cumulative so we're seeing God move and then you look at the culture move and then you look at the culture move and then you look at the culture Bible sales doubling every year um Bible sales doubling every year um Bible sales doubling every year um number of young people engaging in faith number of young people engaging in faith number of young people engaging in faith spiritual hunger um the data on lots of spiritual hunger um the data on lots of spiritual hunger um the data on lots of the key markers and everywhere you look the key markers and everywhere you look the key markers and everywhere you look in culture from soccer players uh to pop in culture from soccer players uh to pop in culture from soccer players uh to pop stars there's a kind of like I was with stars there's a kind of like I was with stars there's a kind of like I was with someone this morning who's in the media someone this morning who's in the media someone this morning who's in the media Everyone is talking about this Christian Everyone is talking about this Christian Everyone is talking about this Christian revival, this Christian resurgence in revival, this Christian resurgence in revival, this Christian resurgence in the culture. So um your data gives you the culture. So um your data gives you the culture. So um your data gives you one picture and I think the data points one picture and I think the data points one picture and I think the data points are about five or six data sets that are are about five or six data sets that are are about five or six data sets that are really encouraging. The dasis that I'm a really encouraging. The dasis that I'm a really encouraging. The dasis that I'm a part of, London Dasis in an Anglican part of, London Dasis in an Anglican part of, London Dasis in an Anglican traditional church in the last 5 years traditional church in the last 5 years traditional church in the last 5 years has grown 20%. That's hard data. So has grown 20%. That's hard data. So has grown 20%. That's hard data. So wherever you look, there are signs of wherever you look, there are signs of wherever you look, there are signs of life that are verifiable. Um, so I life that are verifiable. Um, so I life that are verifiable. Um, so I wouldn't I'm not so worried about I I wouldn't I'm not so worried about I I wouldn't I'm not so worried about I I mean I never quite bought the quiet mean I never quite bought the quiet mean I never quite bought the quiet revival narrative anyhow because I think revival narrative anyhow because I think revival narrative anyhow because I think revival is never quiet and we're revival is never quiet and we're revival is never quiet and we're definitely seeing signs of life. We definitely seeing signs of life. We definitely seeing signs of life. We baptized 48 people last Sunday. You baptized 48 people last Sunday. You baptized 48 people last Sunday. You know, signs of life all around us and know, signs of life all around us and know, signs of life all around us and people coming to faith the whole time.

people coming to faith the whole time. people coming to faith the whole time. So there is definitely something So there is definitely something So there is definitely something happening and it's happening not just in happening and it's happening not just in happening and it's happening not just in London of course but across some of the London of course but across some of the London of course but across some of the most secular cities on the planet. God most secular cities on the planet. God most secular cities on the planet. God is on the move. is on the move. is on the move. >> Well, London is an interesting place. I >> Well, London is an interesting place. I >> Well, London is an interesting place. I kind of think of it and I could be wrong kind of think of it and I could be wrong kind of think of it and I could be wrong here, but like a prequel to what might here, but like a prequel to what might here, but like a prequel to what might happen in America. Um, you know, you got happen in America. Um, you know, you got happen in America. Um, you know, you got a lot of American preachers who are over a lot of American preachers who are over a lot of American preachers who are over to visit what's happening at the HTB to visit what's happening at the HTB to visit what's happening at the HTB churches, Holy Trinity, Brmpton churches, Holy Trinity, Brmpton churches, Holy Trinity, Brmpton churches, Alpha, etc. John Tyson is churches, Alpha, etc. John Tyson is churches, Alpha, etc. John Tyson is there on the regular among many. And there on the regular among many. And there on the regular among many. And >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> you know, it's I I guess the question I >> you know, it's I I guess the question I >> you know, it's I I guess the question I have is because the UK was so secular have is because the UK was so secular have is because the UK was so secular for so long and it had been declining. for so long and it had been declining. for so long and it had been declining. Like if if you ever watch the crown, you Like if if you ever watch the crown, you Like if if you ever watch the crown, you realize realize realize >> from Queen Elizabeth's birth and reign >> from Queen Elizabeth's birth and reign >> from Queen Elizabeth's birth and reign to her death, to her death, to her death, >> Britain had become post-Christian. >> Britain had become post-Christian. >> Britain had become post-Christian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And deeply secular. And then, you know, >> And deeply secular. And then, you know, >> And deeply secular. And then, you know, some of the new atheism was British, some of the new atheism was British, some of the new atheism was British, >> right? Like some of the leading thinkers >> right? Like some of the leading thinkers >> right? Like some of the leading thinkers were like, "Ah, Christianity is rubbish.

were like, "Ah, Christianity is rubbish. were like, "Ah, Christianity is rubbish. We don't need to follow it." We don't need to follow it." We don't need to follow it." >> And so, I'm curious because, you know, >> And so, I'm curious because, you know, >> And so, I'm curious because, you know, London's also a very cosmopolitan city. London's also a very cosmopolitan city. London's also a very cosmopolitan city. Why is it not Islam? Why is it not new Why is it not Islam? Why is it not new Why is it not Islam? Why is it not new age spirituality? Why is it not like and age spirituality? Why is it not like and age spirituality? Why is it not like and obviously we we know well Jesus is the obviously we we know well Jesus is the obviously we we know well Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I mean, we way, the truth, and the life. I mean, we way, the truth, and the life. I mean, we get that. But like sociologically, why get that. But like sociologically, why get that. But like sociologically, why do you think the return has been toward do you think the return has been toward do you think the return has been toward Christianity? Because even Steven Christianity? Because even Steven Christianity? Because even Steven Bartlett, host of perhaps the biggest Bartlett, host of perhaps the biggest Bartlett, host of perhaps the biggest podcast in the world, Diary of a CEO, podcast in the world, Diary of a CEO, podcast in the world, Diary of a CEO, just had Wes Huff on earlier in 2026, just had Wes Huff on earlier in 2026, just had Wes Huff on earlier in 2026, >> to discuss Christianity. Like, it's >> to discuss Christianity. Like, it's >> to discuss Christianity. Like, it's Christianity that he's going after. Christianity that he's going after. Christianity that he's going after. >> And I mean, he had a Christian >> And I mean, he had a Christian >> And I mean, he had a Christian background, deconverted, the whole deal. background, deconverted, the whole deal. background, deconverted, the whole deal. It's just fascinating to see what's It's just fascinating to see what's It's just fascinating to see what's happening. So, why Christianity as happening. So, why Christianity as happening. So, why Christianity as opposed to spirituality? Yeah, I think opposed to spirituality? Yeah, I think opposed to spirituality? Yeah, I think it's very interesting uh that people are it's very interesting uh that people are it's very interesting uh that people are looking for something that is true and looking for something that is true and looking for something that is true and good and kind and gentle. And I think good and kind and gentle. And I think good and kind and gentle. And I think that's what's always compelling about that's what's always compelling about that's what's always compelling about Jesus is that he is all those things Jesus is that he is all those things Jesus is that he is all those things like he is he's real. He's true. And like he is he's real. He's true. And like he is he's real. He's true. And there are um there are lots of people there are um there are lots of people there are um there are lots of people searching for this this generation we're searching for this this generation we're searching for this this generation we're living in who are searching for living in who are searching for living in who are searching for spiritual spiritual spiritual homecoming. They just they they are homecoming. They just they they are homecoming. They just they they are tired. They are anisttized by their tired. They are anisttized by their tired. They are anisttized by their devices. They have been traumatized by devices. They have been traumatized by devices. They have been traumatized by the cultural narratives, whether it's the cultural narratives, whether it's the cultural narratives, whether it's the pandemics or the the the political the pandemics or the the the political the pandemics or the the the political and geopolitical turmoil, threats of and geopolitical turmoil, threats of and geopolitical turmoil, threats of war, economic AI. And we're living in war, economic AI. And we're living in war, economic AI. And we're living in this incredibly shaken generation. Uh

this incredibly shaken generation. Uh this incredibly shaken generation. Uh they are shookth, you know, they are they are shookth, you know, they are they are shookth, you know, they are just like all over the place. And in just like all over the place. And in just like all over the place. And in those moments, people want a foundation those moments, people want a foundation those moments, people want a foundation that is solid. And the truth is nowhere that is solid. And the truth is nowhere that is solid. And the truth is nowhere else can you find a compelling else can you find a compelling else can you find a compelling foundation. You know, nothing else is is foundation. You know, nothing else is is foundation. You know, nothing else is is working for people. And so I think working for people. And so I think working for people. And so I think people are we're we're baptizing people. people are we're we're baptizing people. people are we're we're baptizing people. I I honestly would sort of anecdotally I I honestly would sort of anecdotally I I honestly would sort of anecdotally I'd say like quite a significant number I'd say like quite a significant number I'd say like quite a significant number of people we baptized. You you shared of people we baptized. You you shared of people we baptized. You you shared testimonies of alpha. They've come out testimonies of alpha. They've come out testimonies of alpha. They've come out of the new age. They come out of of the new age. They come out of of the new age. They come out of witchcraft. They've come out of dabbling witchcraft. They've come out of dabbling witchcraft. They've come out of dabbling in the occult and spirituality. And in the occult and spirituality. And in the occult and spirituality. And they've just they just realize that that they've just they just realize that that they've just they just realize that that stuff leads to death and it leads to law stuff leads to death and it leads to law stuff leads to death and it leads to law and it leads to a life that they're not and it leads to a life that they're not and it leads to a life that they're not that's not what their heart's desire is. that's not what their heart's desire is. that's not what their heart's desire is. >> And it's like that verse in Song of >> And it's like that verse in Song of >> And it's like that verse in Song of Songs, you know, when I found the one my Songs, you know, when I found the one my Songs, you know, when I found the one my heart loved, I held him and I would not heart loved, I held him and I would not heart loved, I held him and I would not let him go. That's almost like the the let him go. That's almost like the the let him go. That's almost like the the sort of life verse for this cultural sort of life verse for this cultural sort of life verse for this cultural moment, this generation. So people are moment, this generation. So people are moment, this generation. So people are just finding in Jesus the the great sort just finding in Jesus the the great sort just finding in Jesus the the great sort of sort of satisfaction for their souls. of sort of satisfaction for their souls. of sort of satisfaction for their souls. And I think you're seeing this, you And I think you're seeing this, you And I think you're seeing this, you know, across the denominations. See, know, across the denominations. See, know, across the denominations. See, Catholic church, um, 21,000 people Catholic church, um, 21,000 people Catholic church, um, 21,000 people baptized in France this Easter. Bible baptized in France this Easter. Bible baptized in France this Easter. Bible sales, you know, again, the last sales, you know, again, the last sales, you know, again, the last reported year of D sales, 134% increase reported year of D sales, 134% increase reported year of D sales, 134% increase in Bible sales. Um, you know, wherever in Bible sales. Um, you know, wherever in Bible sales. Um, you know, wherever you look kind of, I mean, alpha is a you look kind of, I mean, alpha is a you look kind of, I mean, alpha is a great example. More people did alpha great example. More people did alpha great example. More people did alpha last year around the world than ever last year around the world than ever last year around the world than ever before. 2.8 million did alpha. In the before. 2.8 million did alpha. In the before. 2.8 million did alpha. In the UK, that has grown significantly. that's UK, that has grown significantly. that's UK, that has grown significantly. that's like grown from 115,000 in 2021 to like grown from 115,000 in 2021 to like grown from 115,000 in 2021 to 230,000 last year. So in terms of our 230,000 last year. So in terms of our 230,000 last year. So in terms of our data points, all these things are data points, all these things are data points, all these things are pointing to when people, young people

pointing to when people, young people pointing to when people, young people particularly, find rest and forgiveness particularly, find rest and forgiveness particularly, find rest and forgiveness and acceptance and freedom which they and acceptance and freedom which they and acceptance and freedom which they can only find in Jesus, they are can only find in Jesus, they are can only find in Jesus, they are flocking to the source of life. flocking to the source of life. flocking to the source of life. H well the other thing I really like H well the other thing I really like H well the other thing I really like about your approach and I want to talk about your approach and I want to talk about your approach and I want to talk about creativity artificial intelligence about creativity artificial intelligence about creativity artificial intelligence today. today. today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um you you were into film before you >> Um you you were into film before you >> Um you you were into film before you became a pastor. became a pastor. became a pastor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so you have an arts background etc. >> And so you have an arts background etc. >> And so you have an arts background etc. And when you think about the quality and And when you think about the quality and And when you think about the quality and the characteristics of God the characteristics of God the characteristics of God >> uh I write about this in my book that >> uh I write about this in my book that >> uh I write about this in my book that comes out this fall AI in the future comes out this fall AI in the future comes out this fall AI in the future church. You have the imminent side of church. You have the imminent side of church. You have the imminent side of God. God with us. God in a manger. Jesus God. God with us. God in a manger. Jesus God. God with us. God in a manger. Jesus with dust on his feet. Jesus talking with dust on his feet. Jesus talking with dust on his feet. Jesus talking incomprehensible language. incomprehensible language. incomprehensible language. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you have the transcendent part of >> And you have the transcendent part of >> And you have the transcendent part of God, which is God, which is God, which is >> you see him, you fall dead at his feet. >> you see him, you fall dead at his feet. >> you see him, you fall dead at his feet. You're like, I am not worthy. You're like, I am not worthy. You're like, I am not worthy. >> Um, you know, and that happens when you >> Um, you know, and that happens when you >> Um, you know, and that happens when you have have a ever you have a theophony have have a ever you have a theophony have have a ever you have a theophony where someone actually sees God. Even, where someone actually sees God. Even, where someone actually sees God. Even, >> you know, Peter, James, and John in the >> you know, Peter, James, and John in the >> you know, Peter, James, and John in the transfiguration. I don't even know what transfiguration. I don't even know what transfiguration. I don't even know what that was. Paul getting knocked off his that was. Paul getting knocked off his that was. Paul getting knocked off his his horse by the risen Jesus.

his horse by the risen Jesus. his horse by the risen Jesus. that is like you get a glimpse of God that is like you get a glimpse of God that is like you get a glimpse of God and it almost kills you. So if you think and it almost kills you. So if you think and it almost kills you. So if you think about the way a lot of churches work, we about the way a lot of churches work, we about the way a lot of churches work, we trend toward being the imminent side of trend toward being the imminent side of trend toward being the imminent side of God or the transcendent, right? Low God or the transcendent, right? Low God or the transcendent, right? Low church evangelicals, my tradition, church evangelicals, my tradition, church evangelicals, my tradition, >> everything's comprehensible, >> everything's comprehensible, >> everything's comprehensible, everything's explainable, everything's everything's explainable, everything's everything's explainable, everything's accessible, five bullet points to a accessible, five bullet points to a accessible, five bullet points to a better marriage. better marriage. better marriage. >> Transcendent, that tends to be >> Transcendent, that tends to be >> Transcendent, that tends to be evangelicals. transcendent charismatics evangelicals. transcendent charismatics evangelicals. transcendent charismatics or Roman Catholics or Anglicans or or Roman Catholics or Anglicans or or Roman Catholics or Anglicans or Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, >> it's more smells and bells and, you >> it's more smells and bells and, you >> it's more smells and bells and, you know, mysterious things and there was a know, mysterious things and there was a know, mysterious things and there was a presence and all of that. And I'm presence and all of that. And I'm presence and all of that. And I'm curious when you think about what you're curious when you think about what you're curious when you think about what you're seeing at Saint Church and across the seeing at Saint Church and across the seeing at Saint Church and across the UK, UK, UK, >> I think the best church is a fusion of >> I think the best church is a fusion of >> I think the best church is a fusion of them. There's the spoiler alert. Like them. There's the spoiler alert. Like them. There's the spoiler alert. Like you need to have elements of God's whole you need to have elements of God's whole you need to have elements of God's whole character, imminent and transcendent. character, imminent and transcendent. character, imminent and transcendent. >> But we probably swung so far to the >> But we probably swung so far to the >> But we probably swung so far to the imminent, imminent, imminent, >> I think, in the last generation in some >> I think, in the last generation in some >> I think, in the last generation in some aspects of the church aspects of the church aspects of the church >> that a need to go back to the >> that a need to go back to the >> that a need to go back to the transcendent or to capture that part of transcendent or to capture that part of transcendent or to capture that part of God is there. And nobody better to do God is there. And nobody better to do God is there. And nobody better to do that or to broker a conversation than that or to broker a conversation than that or to broker a conversation than somebody who schooled in the arts. I somebody who schooled in the arts. I somebody who schooled in the arts. I mean, that's what you've done. So, I'd mean, that's what you've done. So, I'd mean, that's what you've done. So, I'd love that's the end of my little rant. I love that's the end of my little rant. I love that's the end of my little rant. I would love your I love it. I think I I would love your I love it. I think I I would love your I love it. I think I I think you make a before we get on to the think you make a before we get on to the think you make a before we get on to the question, you make such a profound question, you make such a profound question, you make such a profound point, Carrie, about I think I mean point, Carrie, about I think I mean point, Carrie, about I think I mean basically the the the work I've just basically the the the work I've just basically the the the work I've just done around Spark, you know, the book done around Spark, you know, the book done around Spark, you know, the book I've just done is is, you know, I didn't I've just done is is, you know, I didn't I've just done is is, you know, I didn't have your book when I wrote it, so I

have your book when I wrote it, so I have your book when I wrote it, so I just had to kind of fish in the dark. just had to kind of fish in the dark. just had to kind of fish in the dark. When when I get my hands on your When when I get my hands on your When when I get my hands on your manuscript, I'll be like, that's the manuscript, I'll be like, that's the manuscript, I'll be like, that's the answer. answer. answer. >> Oh, I don't know about that. But >> Oh, I don't know about that. But >> Oh, I don't know about that. But >> no, yeah, it just really really made me >> no, yeah, it just really really made me >> no, yeah, it just really really made me think because you know, God is both. He think because you know, God is both. He think because you know, God is both. He is not either or. is not either or. is not either or. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when you think about transcendent >> And when you think about transcendent >> And when you think about transcendent elements, what what seems to be elements, what what seems to be elements, what what seems to be connecting with the next generation? connecting with the next generation? connecting with the next generation? Because you can make it so transcendent, Because you can make it so transcendent, Because you can make it so transcendent, mysterious, and high church that nobody mysterious, and high church that nobody mysterious, and high church that nobody has a clue what's going on. has a clue what's going on. has a clue what's going on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you make it so imminent that people >> And you make it so imminent that people >> And you make it so imminent that people are like, okay, I understand five points are like, okay, I understand five points are like, okay, I understand five points to a better message, but they've lost to a better message, but they've lost to a better message, but they've lost the sense of awe or God, and the sense of awe or God, and the sense of awe or God, and >> it almost becomes too pedestrian. Yeah. >> it almost becomes too pedestrian. Yeah. >> it almost becomes too pedestrian. Yeah. And And And >> so I'm curious when you know reflect on >> so I'm curious when you know reflect on >> so I'm curious when you know reflect on that and then what are you seeing that and then what are you seeing that and then what are you seeing connect in your context? connect in your context? connect in your context? >> Yeah. Well, thank you and I think it's >> Yeah. Well, thank you and I think it's >> Yeah. Well, thank you and I think it's amazing that you're you're so ahead of amazing that you're you're so ahead of amazing that you're you're so ahead of the curve on this Kerry and literally I the curve on this Kerry and literally I the curve on this Kerry and literally I can't wait to dive into what you've been can't wait to dive into what you've been can't wait to dive into what you've been writing and thinking about. And there writing and thinking about. And there writing and thinking about. And there definitely is an urgent question that we definitely is an urgent question that we definitely is an urgent question that we all need to wrestle with whether in all need to wrestle with whether in all need to wrestle with whether in leadership, whether you're a pastor, uh leadership, whether you're a pastor, uh leadership, whether you're a pastor, uh whether you're just trying to work out whether you're just trying to work out whether you're just trying to work out how to follow God in this moment of how how to follow God in this moment of how how to follow God in this moment of how we we find the kind of wonderland of we we find the kind of wonderland of we we find the kind of wonderland of beauty in the imagination again. Um beauty in the imagination again. Um beauty in the imagination again. Um there's a um very very wonderful GK there's a um very very wonderful GK there's a um very very wonderful GK Chesson quote that I'm going to mess up Chesson quote that I'm going to mess up Chesson quote that I'm going to mess up by quoting it from memory and I'm by quoting it from memory and I'm by quoting it from memory and I'm dyslexic so forgive me. And I talk about dyslexic so forgive me. And I talk about dyslexic so forgive me. And I talk about it in Spark, but it's this this um idea it in Spark, but it's this this um idea it in Spark, but it's this this um idea that deep inside every human being and

that deep inside every human being and that deep inside every human being and every soul is this sort of search, this every soul is this sort of search, this every soul is this sort of search, this longing for this what he describes as longing for this what he describes as longing for this what he describes as the sunrise of wonder. And both the the sunrise of wonder. And both the the sunrise of wonder. And both the artistic life and the spiritual life, artistic life and the spiritual life, artistic life and the spiritual life, their purpose is to find and uncover their purpose is to find and uncover their purpose is to find and uncover that sunrise of wonder. And you that sunrise of wonder. And you that sunrise of wonder. And you mentioned the transfiguration. Uh mentioned the transfiguration. Uh mentioned the transfiguration. Uh there's a wonderful verse in the account there's a wonderful verse in the account there's a wonderful verse in the account of the transfiguration when James and of the transfiguration when James and of the transfiguration when James and John and Peter and Jesus come down the John and Peter and Jesus come down the John and Peter and Jesus come down the mount of transfiguration and they go mount of transfiguration and they go mount of transfiguration and they go among the people. There's a wonderful among the people. There's a wonderful among the people. There's a wonderful verse that if you just dissect this verse that if you just dissect this verse that if you just dissect this verse, you can spend a long time verse, you can spend a long time verse, you can spend a long time thinking about this. It says this, "When thinking about this. It says this, "When thinking about this. It says this, "When all the people saw Jesus, they were all the people saw Jesus, they were all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and they ran to overwhelmed with wonder and they ran to overwhelmed with wonder and they ran to greet him." Now, I sort of like to greet him." Now, I sort of like to greet him." Now, I sort of like to picture that as Jesus having been bathed picture that as Jesus having been bathed picture that as Jesus having been bathed in the glory of the father, the cloud of in the glory of the father, the cloud of in the glory of the father, the cloud of transfiguration and glowing. He's had a transfiguration and glowing. He's had a transfiguration and glowing. He's had a a spiritual glow up and he comes down a spiritual glow up and he comes down a spiritual glow up and he comes down the mountain. I imagine it's a bit like the mountain. I imagine it's a bit like the mountain. I imagine it's a bit like when you've been on holiday car. You when you've been on holiday car. You when you've been on holiday car. You come back looking amazing. He's like, come back looking amazing. He's like, come back looking amazing. He's like, you know, he's got some sort of godly you know, he's got some sort of godly you know, he's got some sort of godly heavenly tan and people are like, "Wow, heavenly tan and people are like, "Wow, heavenly tan and people are like, "Wow, what is this? Who is this guy? What's what is this? Who is this guy? What's what is this? Who is this guy? What's going on with him? He's literally going on with him? He's literally going on with him? He's literally glowing like Moses coming down the glowing like Moses coming down the glowing like Moses coming down the mountain, his unveiled face, and they mountain, his unveiled face, and they mountain, his unveiled face, and they see in Jesus the sort of homeland of see in Jesus the sort of homeland of see in Jesus the sort of homeland of wonder and mystery." And I think that to wonder and mystery." And I think that to wonder and mystery." And I think that to answer the question, the imminence and answer the question, the imminence and answer the question, the imminence and the transcendence, the transcendence, the transcendence, the mystery and the certainty, the the the mystery and the certainty, the the the mystery and the certainty, the the living word and the utter otherness of living word and the utter otherness of living word and the utter otherness of God are both married in the face of God are both married in the face of God are both married in the face of Jesus. You the image of the un the Jesus. You the image of the un the Jesus. You the image of the un the unseen God, the invisible God. And so unseen God, the invisible God. And so unseen God, the invisible God. And so for for me that the the answer to this for for me that the the answer to this for for me that the the answer to this longing of how we marry the transcendent longing of how we marry the transcendent longing of how we marry the transcendent and the imminent and how we hold

and the imminent and how we hold and the imminent and how we hold together beauty, truth, and goodness. together beauty, truth, and goodness. together beauty, truth, and goodness. And I think the arts is And I think the arts is And I think the arts is is beholding Jesus. Like it doesn't mean is beholding Jesus. Like it doesn't mean is beholding Jesus. Like it doesn't mean we have to stare at Christian art for it we have to stare at Christian art for it we have to stare at Christian art for it to be good. But whenever there's beauty, to be good. But whenever there's beauty, to be good. But whenever there's beauty, whenever there's truth, um, and that whenever there's truth, um, and that whenever there's truth, um, and that wonder, you know, we live in this wonder wonder, you know, we live in this wonder wonder, you know, we live in this wonder deprived. There's a drought of wonder, a deprived. There's a drought of wonder, a deprived. There's a drought of wonder, a wonder sort of starved generation. wonder sort of starved generation. wonder sort of starved generation. Again, I I I talk about this in Spark. I Again, I I I talk about this in Spark. I Again, I I I talk about this in Spark. I remember talking with a young woman who remember talking with a young woman who remember talking with a young woman who was in floods of tears about how she was in floods of tears about how she was in floods of tears about how she early 20s and she said, "I'm just I'm early 20s and she said, "I'm just I'm early 20s and she said, "I'm just I'm I'm struggling." I was like, you know, I'm struggling." I was like, you know, I'm struggling." I was like, you know, what's up? And she said, I was expecting what's up? And she said, I was expecting what's up? And she said, I was expecting kind of, you know, all the normal things kind of, you know, all the normal things kind of, you know, all the normal things passed through. She said, I just it's my passed through. She said, I just it's my passed through. She said, I just it's my imagination. I can't dream anymore. And imagination. I can't dream anymore. And imagination. I can't dream anymore. And I found that sort of so it's arrested me I found that sort of so it's arrested me I found that sort of so it's arrested me that there's a generation emerging. that there's a generation emerging. that there's a generation emerging. We're so hypnotized by our flickering We're so hypnotized by our flickering We're so hypnotized by our flickering pixels. We're so um sort of discipled by pixels. We're so um sort of discipled by pixels. We're so um sort of discipled by the cycle of the news feed or the the cycle of the news feed or the the cycle of the news feed or the scrolling endlessly of um this kind of scrolling endlessly of um this kind of scrolling endlessly of um this kind of mosaic of of bits of life and bites of mosaic of of bits of life and bites of mosaic of of bits of life and bites of life that get thrown us that we've life that get thrown us that we've life that get thrown us that we've forgotten the capacity to simply be aed, forgotten the capacity to simply be aed, forgotten the capacity to simply be aed, you know, to be overwhelmed with wonder you know, to be overwhelmed with wonder you know, to be overwhelmed with wonder again. And I think that's the urgent again. And I think that's the urgent again. And I think that's the urgent thing and particularly and we'll come on thing and particularly and we'll come on thing and particularly and we'll come on to this in the age of the algorithm of to this in the age of the algorithm of to this in the age of the algorithm of recovering the human being's capacity recovering the human being's capacity recovering the human being's capacity for beauty and letting God speak into for beauty and letting God speak into for beauty and letting God speak into that and God kind of meet us in that that and God kind of meet us in that that and God kind of meet us in that place. You know Birdie over the thinker place. You know Birdie over the thinker place. You know Birdie over the thinker said this God created the world by said this God created the world by said this God created the world by imagination and as Christians we we imagination and as Christians we we imagination and as Christians we we forget that our genesis is in the God forget that our genesis is in the God forget that our genesis is in the God who creates. It's the story the first

who creates. It's the story the first who creates. It's the story the first thing the human race does is create. The thing the human race does is create. The thing the human race does is create. The first act that we are given by God to do first act that we are given by God to do first act that we are given by God to do is naming the animals. It's a branding is naming the animals. It's a branding is naming the animals. It's a branding exercise like go name the animals. So exercise like go name the animals. So exercise like go name the animals. So God has always had this role for God has always had this role for God has always had this role for humanity in his created order to make humanity in his created order to make humanity in his created order to make and imagine and dream and kind of and imagine and dream and kind of and imagine and dream and kind of co-create as Tolken would put it to be a co-create as Tolken would put it to be a co-create as Tolken would put it to be a co-creator with God. This episode is co-creator with God. This episode is co-creator with God. This episode is brought to you by my sermon prep brought to you by my sermon prep brought to you by my sermon prep challenge. So I want to talk to you challenge. So I want to talk to you challenge. So I want to talk to you pastor for a minute about preaching. Not pastor for a minute about preaching. Not pastor for a minute about preaching. Not the theology of it, not the craft, but the theology of it, not the craft, but the theology of it, not the craft, but but the grind of it. Okay? You've been but the grind of it. Okay? You've been but the grind of it. Okay? You've been at this for a little while and if you've at this for a little while and if you've at this for a little while and if you've been at it for more than a year, you been at it for more than a year, you been at it for more than a year, you know exactly what I'm talking about. know exactly what I'm talking about. know exactly what I'm talking about. Sunday comes around every seven days Sunday comes around every seven days Sunday comes around every seven days whether you're ready or not. And most whether you're ready or not. And most whether you're ready or not. And most weeks it's hard to be ready, right? weeks it's hard to be ready, right? weeks it's hard to be ready, right? Sometimes you're just not. So preachers Sometimes you're just not. So preachers Sometimes you're just not. So preachers can go through their entire time in can go through their entire time in can go through their entire time in ministry like that. Always scrambling, ministry like that. Always scrambling, ministry like that. Always scrambling, always trying to keep up. And I don't always trying to keep up. And I don't always trying to keep up. And I don't think it's sustainable. It wasn't for think it's sustainable. It wasn't for think it's sustainable. It wasn't for me. It's not for you. So I got something me. It's not for you. So I got something me. It's not for you. So I got something very practical you can do about it. July very practical you can do about it. July very practical you can do about it. July 7th through 9th, me and my team are 7th through 9th, me and my team are 7th through 9th, me and my team are running a free three-day challenge to running a free three-day challenge to running a free three-day challenge to help you get ahead on your sermon prep.

help you get ahead on your sermon prep. help you get ahead on your sermon prep. There's a one-hour long call on each of There's a one-hour long call on each of There's a one-hour long call on each of the days. And if you stick with the the days. And if you stick with the the days. And if you stick with the challenge by the end of the day on challenge by the end of the day on challenge by the end of the day on Thursday, you will actually be two weeks Thursday, you will actually be two weeks Thursday, you will actually be two weeks ahead on your sermon prep. Most people ahead on your sermon prep. Most people ahead on your sermon prep. Most people never set up a good pattern for writing never set up a good pattern for writing never set up a good pattern for writing messages. This is going to get you there messages. This is going to get you there messages. This is going to get you there fast. It's the system I have used to get fast. It's the system I have used to get fast. It's the system I have used to get weeks, months ahead on my preaching and weeks, months ahead on my preaching and weeks, months ahead on my preaching and on my content. So, if you're interested, on my content. So, if you're interested, on my content. So, if you're interested, go to carrynhoff.com/serprep go to carrynhoff.com/serprep go to carrynhoff.com/serprep to register. Plus, I've included a link to register. Plus, I've included a link to register. Plus, I've included a link in the description of the episode that in the description of the episode that in the description of the episode that you can click on to register for free. you can click on to register for free. you can click on to register for free. Sermon prep can be a grind. It does not Sermon prep can be a grind. It does not Sermon prep can be a grind. It does not need to. Register for free and we'll need to. Register for free and we'll need to. Register for free and we'll help. kyneu-hoff.com/sermon help. kyneu-hoff.com/sermon help. kyneu-hoff.com/sermon prep. This episode is brought to you by prep. This episode is brought to you by prep. This episode is brought to you by my friends at GlobalChristian Relief. my friends at GlobalChristian Relief. my friends at GlobalChristian Relief. For a lot of us, the persecuted church For a lot of us, the persecuted church For a lot of us, the persecuted church can feel pretty distant. But the global can feel pretty distant. But the global can feel pretty distant. But the global church isn't an idea. It's not a church isn't an idea. It's not a church isn't an idea. It's not a concept. It's a family. And when one concept. It's a family. And when one concept. It's a family. And when one part of the body suffers, we don't get part of the body suffers, we don't get part of the body suffers, we don't get to stay spectators. We're called to to stay spectators. We're called to to stay spectators. We're called to action. So, I want to tell you about a action. So, I want to tell you about a action. So, I want to tell you about a nonprofit you should know about, Global nonprofit you should know about, Global nonprofit you should know about, Global Christian Relief. This organization is Christian Relief. This organization is Christian Relief. This organization is led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for over a decade. And I'm thankful for for over a decade. And I'm thankful for for over a decade. And I'm thankful for the way he leads GCR because he's the way he leads GCR because he's the way he leads GCR because he's helping our persecuted brothers and helping our persecuted brothers and helping our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ know that they're not sisters in Christ know that they're not sisters in Christ know that they're not alone. GCR supports our global church alone. GCR supports our global church alone. GCR supports our global church family in places where following Jesus family in places where following Jesus family in places where following Jesus carries a real cost. Places like carries a real cost. Places like carries a real cost. Places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many more. GCR brings scripture to

and many more. GCR brings scripture to and many more. GCR brings scripture to people where it's restricted. It people where it's restricted. It people where it's restricted. It provides emergency relief when crisis provides emergency relief when crisis provides emergency relief when crisis hits and supports the church long-term hits and supports the church long-term hits and supports the church long-term so it can remain and grow stronger. When so it can remain and grow stronger. When so it can remain and grow stronger. When you support the global church, you're you support the global church, you're you support the global church, you're not just supporting a cause. You're not just supporting a cause. You're not just supporting a cause. You're standing with your brothers and sisters, standing with your brothers and sisters, standing with your brothers and sisters, with your family. Global Christian with your family. Global Christian with your family. Global Christian Relief is doing some really impactful Relief is doing some really impactful Relief is doing some really impactful work. I would love for you to check them work. I would love for you to check them work. I would love for you to check them out. All you have to do is go to out. All you have to do is go to out. All you have to do is go to gcreief.org. gcreief.org. gcreief.org. That's gcreief.org. That's gcreief.org. That's gcreief.org. So, I think it was earlier um I don't So, I think it was earlier um I don't So, I think it was earlier um I don't know what episode it was, but when you know what episode it was, but when you know what episode it was, but when you were maybe first on, we talked about the were maybe first on, we talked about the were maybe first on, we talked about the architectural aspect of that, architectural aspect of that, architectural aspect of that, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And we looked at what you did for St. >> And we looked at what you did for St. >> And we looked at what you did for St. Church and I can't wait. I think next Church and I can't wait. I think next Church and I can't wait. I think next year will be my first actual visit to year will be my first actual visit to year will be my first actual visit to St. Church, which I'm very excited St. Church, which I'm very excited St. Church, which I'm very excited about. about. about. >> Disappointed, Carrie. >> Disappointed, Carrie. >> Disappointed, Carrie. >> No, no, no. But I mean, Ed Sharon, cold >> No, no, no. But I mean, Ed Sharon, cold >> No, no, no. But I mean, Ed Sharon, cold play our recording in it. you you play our recording in it. you you play our recording in it. you you transformed an ancient old centuries old transformed an ancient old centuries old transformed an ancient old centuries old building into something beautiful and building into something beautiful and building into something beautiful and modern that people flock to with modern that people flock to with modern that people flock to with architecture. But I'm wondering in terms architecture. But I'm wondering in terms architecture. But I'm wondering in terms of like for most of us whether we lead a of like for most of us whether we lead a of like for most of us whether we lead a very large church or an averagesized very large church or an averagesized very large church or an averagesized church of 100 people on a Sunday church of 100 people on a Sunday church of 100 people on a Sunday morning. I think most of us can figure morning. I think most of us can figure morning. I think most of us can figure out how to make something imminent, how out how to make something imminent, how out how to make something imminent, how to make it clear, how to make it to make it clear, how to make it to make it clear, how to make it comprehensible. We get that.

comprehensible. We get that. comprehensible. We get that. >> But people who are wired like me aren't >> But people who are wired like me aren't >> But people who are wired like me aren't very good at the creative. And I know very good at the creative. And I know very good at the creative. And I know we're not supposed to say that and we'll we're not supposed to say that and we'll we're not supposed to say that and we'll get to that, but get to that, but get to that, but >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> you know, what what do you do like what >> you know, what what do you do like what >> you know, what what do you do like what creative elements do you include creative elements do you include creative elements do you include >> or or those transcendent moments uh as >> or or those transcendent moments uh as >> or or those transcendent moments uh as you design or broker a weekend service you design or broker a weekend service you design or broker a weekend service for those who have gathered? How how do for those who have gathered? How how do for those who have gathered? How how do you do that? How do you evoke the wonder you do that? How do you evoke the wonder you do that? How do you evoke the wonder rather than just like and here are the rather than just like and here are the rather than just like and here are the bullet points and we'll see you next bullet points and we'll see you next bullet points and we'll see you next Sunday? Sunday? Sunday? >> Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure we do it very >> Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure we do it very >> Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure we do it very well. And I think I do genuinely mean well. And I think I do genuinely mean well. And I think I do genuinely mean it. We're um probably gloriously it. We're um probably gloriously it. We're um probably gloriously unimpressive. And I think that's okay unimpressive. And I think that's okay unimpressive. And I think that's okay because there's as much beauty in the because there's as much beauty in the because there's as much beauty in the mundane and the ordinary often as there mundane and the ordinary often as there mundane and the ordinary often as there is in the transcendental and the is in the transcendental and the is in the transcendental and the mountaintop. Um but I think there's mountaintop. Um but I think there's mountaintop. Um but I think there's something um really important about something um really important about something um really important about being present and being present to God being present and being present to God being present and being present to God and present to each other. That's where and present to each other. That's where and present to each other. That's where often love and wonder and beauty really often love and wonder and beauty really often love and wonder and beauty really get grounded. So I think rather than get grounded. So I think rather than get grounded. So I think rather than trying to impress one another with our trying to impress one another with our trying to impress one another with our creativity, I think trying to create the creativity, I think trying to create the creativity, I think trying to create the kind of environment where people's kind of environment where people's kind of environment where people's dreams and their imagination can come dreams and their imagination can come dreams and their imagination can come alive. So I think probably for me the alive. So I think probably for me the alive. So I think probably for me the big goal would be not to leave people big goal would be not to leave people big goal would be not to leave people with an experience but to give people with an experience but to give people with an experience but to give people permission to dream and permission to permission to dream and permission to permission to dream and permission to create. And it seems to me the presence create. And it seems to me the presence create. And it seems to me the presence of God is the thing that does that. You of God is the thing that does that. You of God is the thing that does that. You know, you can get in the way and try and know, you can get in the way and try and know, you can get in the way and try and manufacture that or say, "Hey, we're manufacture that or say, "Hey, we're manufacture that or say, "Hey, we're going to be a capital Creative church."

going to be a capital Creative church." going to be a capital Creative church." And usually it just doesn't really work. And usually it just doesn't really work. And usually it just doesn't really work. What really works in my experience is What really works in my experience is What really works in my experience is when we come close to the person of when we come close to the person of when we come close to the person of Jesus. And whether that's whatever Jesus. And whether that's whatever Jesus. And whether that's whatever tradition actually when it's genuinely tradition actually when it's genuinely tradition actually when it's genuinely with integrity we're making room for with integrity we're making room for with integrity we're making room for God. The fruit of that is usually God. The fruit of that is usually God. The fruit of that is usually incredible creativity. And it doesn't incredible creativity. And it doesn't incredible creativity. And it doesn't need to be kind of the same as the need to be kind of the same as the need to be kind of the same as the person in the next door church to you. person in the next door church to you. person in the next door church to you. But it it's one of those things that But it it's one of those things that But it it's one of those things that happens like you on the day of Pentecost happens like you on the day of Pentecost happens like you on the day of Pentecost when the spirit of God comes. Peter when the spirit of God comes. Peter when the spirit of God comes. Peter stands up and quotes of course the book stands up and quotes of course the book stands up and quotes of course the book of Joel and that great line, young men of Joel and that great line, young men of Joel and that great line, young men will dream dreams. Old men see visions. will dream dreams. Old men see visions. will dream dreams. Old men see visions. Young men, young women will create. Young men, young women will create. Young men, young women will create. Essentially, when the spirit of God is Essentially, when the spirit of God is Essentially, when the spirit of God is in the building, one of the fruits of in the building, one of the fruits of in the building, one of the fruits of that is that you begin to dream again. that is that you begin to dream again. that is that you begin to dream again. Your imagination comes alive. So really, Your imagination comes alive. So really, Your imagination comes alive. So really, rather than leave people with an rather than leave people with an rather than leave people with an experience that would be creative, which experience that would be creative, which experience that would be creative, which is probably, you know, going to pale in is probably, you know, going to pale in is probably, you know, going to pale in comparison to the Super Bowl final they comparison to the Super Bowl final they comparison to the Super Bowl final they just watched or whatever, I would rather just watched or whatever, I would rather just watched or whatever, I would rather that people are filled with the wonder that people are filled with the wonder that people are filled with the wonder and the love, filled with the spirit of and the love, filled with the spirit of and the love, filled with the spirit of the creator. Um, and then they go from the creator. Um, and then they go from the creator. Um, and then they go from there and they make good and they make there and they make good and they make there and they make good and they make beautiful things and they they go and beautiful things and they they go and beautiful things and they they go and rewire and re-imagine the world.

rewire and re-imagine the world. rewire and re-imagine the world. I would say one thing and again I I would say one thing and again I I would say one thing and again I haven't been to saint church but I've haven't been to saint church but I've haven't been to saint church but I've been to numerous services at HTB and a been to numerous services at HTB and a been to numerous services at HTB and a leadership conference and everything and leadership conference and everything and leadership conference and everything and what I would say whether there's a what I would say whether there's a what I would say whether there's a hundred people in the room or thousands hundred people in the room or thousands hundred people in the room or thousands of people in the room of people in the room of people in the room >> there is a warmth >> there is a warmth >> there is a warmth >> to the prayers there's there's no sense >> to the prayers there's there's no sense >> to the prayers there's there's no sense of hurry of hurry of hurry >> in the services there's no sense of >> in the services there's no sense of >> in the services there's no sense of moving from one element to another like moving from one element to another like moving from one element to another like production it's well produced production it's well produced production it's well produced >> but there is a an unrushed >> but there is a an unrushed >> but there is a an unrushed tone to it. tone to it. tone to it. >> Nice >> Nice >> Nice >> that I find very very compelling and >> that I find very very compelling and >> that I find very very compelling and convicting. convicting. convicting. >> And that's true in prayer as well, >> And that's true in prayer as well, >> And that's true in prayer as well, right? Just giving space for people to right? Just giving space for people to right? Just giving space for people to breathe, inviting the Holy Spirit. I breathe, inviting the Holy Spirit. I breathe, inviting the Holy Spirit. I don't think I've ever been don't think I've ever been don't think I've ever been >> at a Holy Trinity Brmpton sponsored >> at a Holy Trinity Brmpton sponsored >> at a Holy Trinity Brmpton sponsored event where it hasn't been come Holy event where it hasn't been come Holy event where it hasn't been come Holy Spirit. Spirit. Spirit. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah, 100%. >> And and a sincerity and humility to it. >> And and a sincerity and humility to it. >> And and a sincerity and humility to it. >> So am I any comment on that? I just want >> So am I any comment on that? I just want >> So am I any comment on that? I just want to try to capture the picture for those to try to capture the picture for those to try to capture the picture for those who haven't been across the pond to see who haven't been across the pond to see who haven't been across the pond to see it for themselves.

it for themselves. it for themselves. >> Yeah, I think that's right. And that's >> Yeah, I think that's right. And that's >> Yeah, I think that's right. And that's certainly you been my experience of certainly you been my experience of certainly you been my experience of being at HB for many decades. And I being at HB for many decades. And I being at HB for many decades. And I think certainly on Alpha that's been the think certainly on Alpha that's been the think certainly on Alpha that's been the real secret source if you like is that real secret source if you like is that real secret source if you like is that space the freedom and I think that's in space the freedom and I think that's in space the freedom and I think that's in our DNA as a sort of expression of our DNA as a sort of expression of our DNA as a sort of expression of church definitely within HB and Saint church definitely within HB and Saint church definitely within HB and Saint will be part of that network of making will be part of that network of making will be part of that network of making room and just wanting to um room and just wanting to um room and just wanting to um just pause a little bit and funny enough just pause a little bit and funny enough just pause a little bit and funny enough it's also that the ingredients that lead it's also that the ingredients that lead it's also that the ingredients that lead to an empowering of your imagination to an empowering of your imagination to an empowering of your imagination Funny enough, you know, when you stop Funny enough, you know, when you stop Funny enough, you know, when you stop when if you were to sort of define it as when if you were to sort of define it as when if you were to sort of define it as um a lightness and a lack of intensity um a lightness and a lack of intensity um a lightness and a lack of intensity and a a desire to wait on God and not to and a a desire to wait on God and not to and a a desire to wait on God and not to kind of manufacture and pressure and kind of manufacture and pressure and kind of manufacture and pressure and push. I think that's really important push. I think that's really important push. I think that's really important that we allow people, particularly young that we allow people, particularly young that we allow people, particularly young people, are so overconditioned by people, are so overconditioned by people, are so overconditioned by culture and society. They're so culture and society. They're so culture and society. They're so programmatized. And you know, we can programmatized. And you know, we can programmatized. And you know, we can lean into our strengths, but God often lean into our strengths, but God often lean into our strengths, but God often just meets us in the gaps. You know, God just meets us in the gaps. You know, God just meets us in the gaps. You know, God comes in the gaps. He comes in our comes in the gaps. He comes in our comes in the gaps. He comes in our weakness and he comes when we stop and weakness and he comes when we stop and weakness and he comes when we stop and we listen and we make room. But I think we listen and we make room. But I think we listen and we make room. But I think as leaders learning to hold that space as leaders learning to hold that space as leaders learning to hold that space is the scary bit. That requires a little is the scary bit. That requires a little is the scary bit. That requires a little bit of stretch and courage because we're bit of stretch and courage because we're bit of stretch and courage because we're so good at like you know the awkward so good at like you know the awkward so good at like you know the awkward it's awkward silence. We think we can't it's awkward silence. We think we can't it's awkward silence. We think we can't we're so good at filling those gaps. And we're so good at filling those gaps. And we're so good at filling those gaps. And it's something I talk a bit about in it's something I talk a bit about in it's something I talk a bit about in spark like in terms of your imagination.

spark like in terms of your imagination. spark like in terms of your imagination. There are a few things that you can There are a few things that you can There are a few things that you can actually do as practices that help you actually do as practices that help you actually do as practices that help you grow the ability for your mind to dream grow the ability for your mind to dream grow the ability for your mind to dream and to be able to dream and imagine. So, and to be able to dream and imagine. So, and to be able to dream and imagine. So, you know, you talk we talk a bit about you know, you talk we talk a bit about you know, you talk we talk a bit about playing like fun. Like she play is playing like fun. Like she play is playing like fun. Like she play is really important to creativity as it is really important to creativity as it is really important to creativity as it is to leadership and life. Like if we take to leadership and life. Like if we take to leadership and life. Like if we take ourselves terribly seriously, it's ourselves terribly seriously, it's ourselves terribly seriously, it's usually pretty counterproductive. Uh usually pretty counterproductive. Uh usually pretty counterproductive. Uh pausing, stopping. You know, the famous pausing, stopping. You know, the famous pausing, stopping. You know, the famous example of this is Mozart who wrote all example of this is Mozart who wrote all example of this is Mozart who wrote all his greatest work in the carriages rides his greatest work in the carriages rides his greatest work in the carriages rides between Vienna and Prague. He's stuck between Vienna and Prague. He's stuck between Vienna and Prague. He's stuck there for two days and he's imagined he there for two days and he's imagined he there for two days and he's imagined he can't no piano, no quill, no ink. And can't no piano, no quill, no ink. And can't no piano, no quill, no ink. And the ideas begin to come into his head the ideas begin to come into his head the ideas begin to come into his head for a you know symphony or a melody and for a you know symphony or a melody and for a you know symphony or a melody and he would describe those as the most most he would describe those as the most most he would describe those as the most most fruitful moments in his creative life. fruitful moments in his creative life. fruitful moments in his creative life. It's it's waiting often the space to It's it's waiting often the space to It's it's waiting often the space to wait allows the soul to breathe and it's wait allows the soul to breathe and it's wait allows the soul to breathe and it's true of creativity but I think it's true true of creativity but I think it's true true of creativity but I think it's true of all of life that you come alive in of all of life that you come alive in of all of life that you come alive in those places when you make room for the those places when you make room for the those places when you make room for the spiritual. spiritual. spiritual. >> How do you play? What do you do? So fun >> How do you play? What do you do? So fun >> How do you play? What do you do? So fun is a really underrated spiritual gift is a really underrated spiritual gift is a really underrated spiritual gift and and and >> most church leaders are terrible at it, >> most church leaders are terrible at it, >> most church leaders are terrible at it, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> I mean, I talked to so many leaders and >> I mean, I talked to so many leaders and >> I mean, I talked to so many leaders and I'm like, and I learned this after my I'm like, and I learned this after my I'm like, and I learned this after my burnout 20 years ago, burnout 20 years ago, burnout 20 years ago, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> What are your habits or hobbies rather? >> What are your habits or hobbies rather? >> What are your habits or hobbies rather? Hobbies. And the answer is I don't have Hobbies. And the answer is I don't have Hobbies. And the answer is I don't have any. any. any. >> Uh because work is my hobby, right? It's >> Uh because work is my hobby, right? It's >> Uh because work is my hobby, right? It's not a hobby, but I I'd love to know like not a hobby, but I I'd love to know like not a hobby, but I I'd love to know like what what do you do to play and recreate what what do you do to play and recreate what what do you do to play and recreate as in recreate? Yes. Well, that's a as in recreate? Yes. Well, that's a as in recreate? Yes. Well, that's a great, you know, it's a great link great, you know, it's a great link great, you know, it's a great link you're making with recreate and you're making with recreate and you're making with recreate and recreation. Those those two things are recreation. Those those two things are recreation. Those those two things are there to in order to create, you have to there to in order to create, you have to there to in order to create, you have to have disciplines. So, I think for me, have disciplines. So, I think for me, have disciplines. So, I think for me, there's lots of things I find fun. I there's lots of things I find fun. I there's lots of things I find fun. I just I find I'm probably quite naughty just I find I'm probably quite naughty just I find I'm probably quite naughty and will always try and I don't know. and will always try and I don't know. and will always try and I don't know. I'm always, you know, I think we try and I'm always, you know, I think we try and I'm always, you know, I think we try and laugh a lot as a team. So, we try not to laugh a lot as a team. So, we try not to laugh a lot as a team. So, we try not to take ourselves at all seriously. And I take ourselves at all seriously. And I take ourselves at all seriously. And I find often creatively if I'm in that find often creatively if I'm in that find often creatively if I'm in that place where it's all quite intense. place where it's all quite intense. place where it's all quite intense. We're all trying to you find some We're all trying to you find some We're all trying to you find some solution to a problem when you take a solution to a problem when you take a solution to a problem when you take a step back a deep breath and you laugh a step back a deep breath and you laugh a step back a deep breath and you laugh a little bit actually neurologically it little bit actually neurologically it little bit actually neurologically it fills the brain with oxygen. Your fills the brain with oxygen. Your fills the brain with oxygen. Your signapses come alive. You know fun is a signapses come alive. You know fun is a signapses come alive. You know fun is a key ingredient. Joy is a key ingredient key ingredient. Joy is a key ingredient key ingredient. Joy is a key ingredient to the creative process. And actually to the creative process. And actually to the creative process. And actually joy is probably the most underrated joy is probably the most underrated joy is probably the most underrated quality right now in our culture. And quality right now in our culture. And quality right now in our culture. And you know the world is on fire. It's you know the world is on fire. It's you know the world is on fire. It's tempting to retreat into the bunker of tempting to retreat into the bunker of tempting to retreat into the bunker of the soul and think no more joy. We're the soul and think no more joy. We're the soul and think no more joy. We're just going to hunker down till Jesus just going to hunker down till Jesus just going to hunker down till Jesus returns. When actually the joy of the returns. When actually the joy of the returns. When actually the joy of the Lord, the Bible tells us, is our Lord, the Bible tells us, is our Lord, the Bible tells us, is our strength. So for me, having hobbies that strength. So for me, having hobbies that strength. So for me, having hobbies that bring life, having people that bring bring life, having people that bring bring life, having people that bring life. Uh we were before we jumped on air life. Uh we were before we jumped on air life. Uh we were before we jumped on air today, we were talking about cooking on today, we were talking about cooking on today, we were talking about cooking on the barbecue. Yeah. Just fun things.

the barbecue. Yeah. Just fun things. the barbecue. Yeah. Just fun things. >> Big Green Egg fans right here are two of >> Big Green Egg fans right here are two of >> Big Green Egg fans right here are two of them. them. them. >> Big Green. I'm about to go and cook some >> Big Green. I'm about to go and cook some >> Big Green. I'm about to go and cook some some steak for some friends tonight some steak for some friends tonight some steak for some friends tonight coming over. Like having friends, coming over. Like having friends, coming over. Like having friends, >> you know, having things that bring you >> you know, having things that bring you >> you know, having things that bring you life. So I I've always learned I'm life. So I I've always learned I'm life. So I I've always learned I'm probably everything ADHD, dyslexic. Um I probably everything ADHD, dyslexic. Um I probably everything ADHD, dyslexic. Um I always find I have to have something new always find I have to have something new always find I have to have something new that is stimulating me and challenging that is stimulating me and challenging that is stimulating me and challenging me. So taking up a new hobby or taking me. So taking up a new hobby or taking me. So taking up a new hobby or taking up something that we'll I'll learn from. up something that we'll I'll learn from. up something that we'll I'll learn from. Um but also I think having a culture Um but also I think having a culture Um but also I think having a culture where you make a decision with your where you make a decision with your where you make a decision with your friends that you work with or you have friends that you work with or you have friends that you work with or you have the joy of working with to choose to the joy of working with to choose to the joy of working with to choose to make sure that you're still having fun. make sure that you're still having fun. make sure that you're still having fun. And if you're not having fun that And if you're not having fun that And if you're not having fun that becomes like the the canary in the mind, becomes like the the canary in the mind, becomes like the the canary in the mind, the like red light in the dashboard like the like red light in the dashboard like the like red light in the dashboard like hey back up here. So for me, making sure hey back up here. So for me, making sure hey back up here. So for me, making sure we don't take ourselves seriously. Um we don't take ourselves seriously. Um we don't take ourselves seriously. Um having fun, playing and I think it having fun, playing and I think it having fun, playing and I think it doesn't need to be like forced fun. Like doesn't need to be like forced fun. Like doesn't need to be like forced fun. Like I think there's a playfulness to how you I think there's a playfulness to how you I think there's a playfulness to how you approach problems that is is part of the approach problems that is is part of the approach problems that is is part of the creative process. And I'll give you one creative process. And I'll give you one creative process. And I'll give you one stat on this. So NASA did a incredibly stat on this. So NASA did a incredibly stat on this. So NASA did a incredibly powerful study around genius, creative powerful study around genius, creative powerful study around genius, creative genius. And they looked at the markers genius. And they looked at the markers genius. And they looked at the markers of creative genius like the the of creative genius like the the of creative genius like the the conditions the human brain has to conditions the human brain has to conditions the human brain has to operate in and how we take risks and the operate in and how we take risks and the operate in and how we take risks and the way we create. And they looked at adults way we create. And they looked at adults way we create. And they looked at adults and they found that 98% of adults don't and they found that 98% of adults don't and they found that 98% of adults don't qualify. Only 2% of adults would qualify qualify. Only 2% of adults would qualify qualify. Only 2% of adults would qualify as creative geniuses. It's a really rare as creative geniuses. It's a really rare as creative geniuses. It's a really rare form and when you come across somebody form and when you come across somebody form and when you come across somebody you think oh wow they are so creative.

you think oh wow they are so creative. you think oh wow they are so creative. Um we we kind of call them creative Um we we kind of call them creative Um we we kind of call them creative geniuses. Here's the thing. when they geniuses. Here's the thing. when they geniuses. Here's the thing. when they looked at children, that statistic flips looked at children, that statistic flips looked at children, that statistic flips entirely on its head. And 98% of entirely on its head. And 98% of entirely on its head. And 98% of children qualified under the same study children qualified under the same study children qualified under the same study as creative geniuses. And they were as creative geniuses. And they were as creative geniuses. And they were like, "Oh my goodness." Now, the answer like, "Oh my goodness." Now, the answer like, "Oh my goodness." Now, the answer is we all started off life learning how is we all started off life learning how is we all started off life learning how to play. You know, if you've got, you to play. You know, if you've got, you to play. You know, if you've got, you know, kids, you'll know if you're know, kids, you'll know if you're know, kids, you'll know if you're listening, you don't really have to tell listening, you don't really have to tell listening, you don't really have to tell a kid how to play. They you have to a kid how to play. They you have to a kid how to play. They you have to teach them how to walk. They need help teach them how to walk. They need help teach them how to walk. They need help with that talking. They have to have to with that talking. They have to have to with that talking. They have to have to help with that eating. But playing from help with that eating. But playing from help with that eating. But playing from the earliest moment they are playing. the earliest moment they are playing. the earliest moment they are playing. It's it's it's the most human thing we It's it's it's the most human thing we It's it's it's the most human thing we do actually. Breathing, playing, you do actually. Breathing, playing, you do actually. Breathing, playing, you know, it's part of who we are. We we we know, it's part of who we are. We we we know, it's part of who we are. We we we play. So play is really important and play. So play is really important and play. So play is really important and having fun is really important. But I'd having fun is really important. But I'd having fun is really important. But I'd add this as well. Um and we can maybe add this as well. Um and we can maybe add this as well. Um and we can maybe talk a bit and unpack this if it's talk a bit and unpack this if it's talk a bit and unpack this if it's helpful. But but play is one side of a helpful. But but play is one side of a helpful. But but play is one side of a state of mind that is key to unlocking state of mind that is key to unlocking state of mind that is key to unlocking creativity in the leader. The other side creativity in the leader. The other side creativity in the leader. The other side is boredom. And boredom is one of those is boredom. And boredom is one of those is boredom. And boredom is one of those things that we things that we things that we we give a really bad rap to. And we give a really bad rap to. And we give a really bad rap to. And actually boredom in our culture is being actually boredom in our culture is being actually boredom in our culture is being gradually managed out of the equation.

gradually managed out of the equation. gradually managed out of the equation. You know, most of the apps that we use, You know, most of the apps that we use, You know, most of the apps that we use, most of the social media we scroll most of the social media we scroll most of the social media we scroll through, most of the devices that like through, most of the devices that like through, most of the devices that like now are embedded in our lives are there now are embedded in our lives are there now are embedded in our lives are there to stop us being bored. And you know, if to stop us being bored. And you know, if to stop us being bored. And you know, if you ask most leaders, when was the last you ask most leaders, when was the last you ask most leaders, when was the last time you were bored? Like really bored, time you were bored? Like really bored, time you were bored? Like really bored, you're going to find that a lot of the you're going to find that a lot of the you're going to find that a lot of the time they're like, I I don't get bored. time they're like, I I don't get bored. time they're like, I I don't get bored. I'm I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed. I'm I'm I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed. I'm I'm I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed. I'm I'm over stimulated. I'm busy. My I'm over stimulated. I'm busy. My I'm over stimulated. I'm busy. My schedule. Boredom is not a thing in my schedule. Boredom is not a thing in my schedule. Boredom is not a thing in my life. life. life. >> Now, here's the thing. Boredom is >> Now, here's the thing. Boredom is >> Now, here's the thing. Boredom is actually a bit like play. It's it's the actually a bit like play. It's it's the actually a bit like play. It's it's the birthplace of brilliance. Most great birthplace of brilliance. Most great birthplace of brilliance. Most great ideas come when we're in a bored state. ideas come when we're in a bored state. ideas come when we're in a bored state. And then our mind begins to imagine and And then our mind begins to imagine and And then our mind begins to imagine and dream and we play and there's a dream and we play and there's a dream and we play and there's a lightness. And all through history, lightness. And all through history, lightness. And all through history, there are incredible examples of great there are incredible examples of great there are incredible examples of great creative thinkers who force themselves creative thinkers who force themselves creative thinkers who force themselves to be bored. I think of um Agatha to be bored. I think of um Agatha to be bored. I think of um Agatha Christie, you know, the Agatha Christie, Christie, you know, the Agatha Christie, Christie, you know, the Agatha Christie, the great crime writer. uh probably the the great crime writer. uh probably the the great crime writer. uh probably the you bestselling crime writer of all time you bestselling crime writer of all time you bestselling crime writer of all time when she was stuck for how to end a plot when she was stuck for how to end a plot when she was stuck for how to end a plot you amazingly complicated pro murder you amazingly complicated pro murder you amazingly complicated pro murder series or something. She would run series or something. She would run series or something. She would run herself famously a big hot bath and go herself famously a big hot bath and go herself famously a big hot bath and go and sit in this bathtub, no typewriter, and sit in this bathtub, no typewriter, and sit in this bathtub, no typewriter, no pen, nothing and just lie there until no pen, nothing and just lie there until no pen, nothing and just lie there until the bath was cold. And in that time the bath was cold. And in that time the bath was cold. And in that time lying in the bath she would come up with lying in the bath she would come up with lying in the bath she would come up with the most amazing ideas, the craziest the most amazing ideas, the craziest the most amazing ideas, the craziest things. Another great example would be things. Another great example would be things. Another great example would be Isaac Newton, the great scientist. Uh he Isaac Newton, the great scientist. Uh he Isaac Newton, the great scientist. Uh he describes what he calls his annis describes what he calls his annis describes what he calls his annis miraabulous, his year of wonders. I miraabulous, his year of wonders. I miraabulous, his year of wonders. I think it was 1665. He's exiled from the think it was 1665. He's exiled from the think it was 1665. He's exiled from the library in where he's studying in in

library in where he's studying in in library in where he's studying in in Cambridge. And he has to flee to his uh Cambridge. And he has to flee to his uh Cambridge. And he has to flee to his uh country estate. His family were sheep country estate. His family were sheep country estate. His family were sheep farmers up in Lincolnshire. And there he farmers up in Lincolnshire. And there he farmers up in Lincolnshire. And there he is stuck in this under this this this is stuck in this under this this this is stuck in this under this this this apple tree in the orchard. Stuck there. apple tree in the orchard. Stuck there. apple tree in the orchard. Stuck there. In that one year, he came up with the In that one year, he came up with the In that one year, he came up with the most profound scientific breakthroughs most profound scientific breakthroughs most profound scientific breakthroughs of his generation. He's still famous for of his generation. He's still famous for of his generation. He's still famous for it whether it's through theory of it whether it's through theory of it whether it's through theory of gravity. So in these gaps of enforced gravity. So in these gaps of enforced gravity. So in these gaps of enforced exile or boredom some of the seeds of of exile or boredom some of the seeds of of exile or boredom some of the seeds of of brilliance can really emerge. So brilliance can really emerge. So brilliance can really emerge. So playfulness, fun, boredom, the gaps, playfulness, fun, boredom, the gaps, playfulness, fun, boredom, the gaps, embrace them. Don't hide from them and embrace them. Don't hide from them and embrace them. Don't hide from them and don't whatever you do fill them with yet don't whatever you do fill them with yet don't whatever you do fill them with yet another podcast or another kind of you another podcast or another kind of you another podcast or another kind of you know it's so temp of course apart from know it's so temp of course apart from know it's so temp of course apart from the Karen Newhoff podcast. Uh but the Karen Newhoff podcast. Uh but the Karen Newhoff podcast. Uh but >> of course >> of course >> of course >> of course but I think giving ourselves >> of course but I think giving ourselves >> of course but I think giving ourselves the space to be bored to dream to the space to be bored to dream to the space to be bored to dream to imagine to be playful totally key. So imagine to be playful totally key. So imagine to be playful totally key. So more joy more boredom more fun. more joy more boredom more fun. more joy more boredom more fun. >> How do you get bored? How do you create >> How do you get bored? How do you create >> How do you get bored? How do you create that space in your life? that space in your life? that space in your life? >> I get bored the whole time genuinely and >> I get bored the whole time genuinely and >> I get bored the whole time genuinely and it's probably my makeup. Um but then it's probably my makeup. Um but then it's probably my makeup. Um but then allowing myself to be bored is the key.

allowing myself to be bored is the key. allowing myself to be bored is the key. So allow giving permission. So going for So allow giving permission. So going for So allow giving permission. So going for a little a little a little >> not reaching for your phone, not turning >> not reaching for your phone, not turning >> not reaching for your phone, not turning something on. something on. something on. >> Yeah. So I retreat. I get away. We um >> Yeah. So I retreat. I get away. We um >> Yeah. So I retreat. I get away. We um try and get away from the desk, the the try and get away from the desk, the the try and get away from the desk, the the email. Um I find myself making room. You email. Um I find myself making room. You email. Um I find myself making room. You know, I think to paraphrase a great know, I think to paraphrase a great know, I think to paraphrase a great piece of advice that you know, one piece of advice that you know, one piece of advice that you know, one well-known church leader said, you know, well-known church leader said, you know, well-known church leader said, you know, I I I sort of I I withdraw daily, I I I I sort of I I withdraw daily, I I I I sort of I I withdraw daily, I retreat weekly, and I kind of um you retreat weekly, and I kind of um you retreat weekly, and I kind of um you holiday monthly, as it were. So you holiday monthly, as it were. So you holiday monthly, as it were. So you basically take it basically take it basically take it >> wasn't it abandon annually abandon >> wasn't it abandon annually abandon >> wasn't it abandon annually abandon formula too I think it was John Sto I formula too I think it was John Sto I formula too I think it was John Sto I can't remember exactly who it was but it can't remember exactly who it was but it can't remember exactly who it was but it was it was withdraw daily retreat weekly was it was withdraw daily retreat weekly was it was withdraw daily retreat weekly abandon annually I think building in abandon annually I think building in abandon annually I think building in rhythms in your life where you have rhythms in your life where you have rhythms in your life where you have Sabbath and moments in the day and then Sabbath and moments in the day and then Sabbath and moments in the day and then also seasons to like you know holiday also seasons to like you know holiday also seasons to like you know holiday and take space I mean it's one of the and take space I mean it's one of the and take space I mean it's one of the things I find talking to pastors a lot things I find talking to pastors a lot things I find talking to pastors a lot of often people come and chat to me and of often people come and chat to me and of often people come and chat to me and say you know we want to ignite say you know we want to ignite say you know we want to ignite creativity in our church what do we do creativity in our church what do we do creativity in our church what do we do and one of the things is like are you and one of the things is like are you and one of the things is like are you making space to to really rest because making space to to really rest because making space to to really rest because the restful brain will be the brain the restful brain will be the brain the restful brain will be the brain that's most fertile for God to use. So that's most fertile for God to use. So that's most fertile for God to use. So yeah, for me in my life, um it's having yeah, for me in my life, um it's having yeah, for me in my life, um it's having moments. I have a dog. I walk my dog in moments. I have a dog. I walk my dog in moments. I have a dog. I walk my dog in the park. You can't look at social media the park. You can't look at social media the park. You can't look at social media while your dog is busy eating something while your dog is busy eating something while your dog is busy eating something behind a tree. That dog is a bad dog.

behind a tree. That dog is a bad dog. behind a tree. That dog is a bad dog. Like she she needs constant like Like she she needs constant like Like she she needs constant like minding, right? Or or children, you minding, right? Or or children, you minding, right? Or or children, you know, w actually the having you can't do know, w actually the having you can't do know, w actually the having you can't do two things at once. So, I cook, I hang two things at once. So, I cook, I hang two things at once. So, I cook, I hang out with my kids, I spend time in the out with my kids, I spend time in the out with my kids, I spend time in the garden, I walk the dog, and I get away. garden, I walk the dog, and I get away. garden, I walk the dog, and I get away. And actually being around outside in And actually being around outside in And actually being around outside in nature and then sometimes going and just nature and then sometimes going and just nature and then sometimes going and just spending time listening to music you spending time listening to music you spending time listening to music you love or art gallery. love or art gallery. love or art gallery. >> Get lost in an album, not a playlist. >> Get lost in an album, not a playlist. >> Get lost in an album, not a playlist. >> Yeah, get lost in an album. And we're >> Yeah, get lost in an album. And we're >> Yeah, get lost in an album. And we're all different, right? But find a thing all different, right? But find a thing all different, right? But find a thing for you that gives you life. for you that gives you life. for you that gives you life. >> What about Bla1 Pascal? Our inability to >> What about Bla1 Pascal? Our inability to >> What about Bla1 Pascal? Our inability to sit quietly alone in our room. That's a sit quietly alone in our room. That's a sit quietly alone in our room. That's a discipline that I am cultivating. discipline that I am cultivating. discipline that I am cultivating. >> And you know, it was very interesting. >> And you know, it was very interesting. >> And you know, it was very interesting. Probably the last forced Probably the last forced Probably the last forced >> boredom I had was a few years ago when I >> boredom I had was a few years ago when I >> boredom I had was a few years ago when I was in the final stages for applying for was in the final stages for applying for was in the final stages for applying for my green card to the US. So, my green card to the US. So, my green card to the US. So, >> I had to go to the US consulate in >> I had to go to the US consulate in >> I had to go to the US consulate in Montreal and they take everything. They Montreal and they take everything. They Montreal and they take everything. They strip you down. You're not bringing in a strip you down. You're not bringing in a strip you down. You're not bringing in a watch. You're not bringing in a belt. watch. You're not bringing in a belt. watch. You're not bringing in a belt. You're not bringing in your phone. You're not bringing in your phone. You're not bringing in your phone. You're not bringing your laptop. So, I'm You're not bringing your laptop. So, I'm You're not bringing your laptop. So, I'm there with a file there with a file there with a file >> from my lawyer of all of my documents >> from my lawyer of all of my documents >> from my lawyer of all of my documents and then you have to wait and there's and then you have to wait and there's and then you have to wait and there's nothing. Just a clock on the wall, an nothing. Just a clock on the wall, an nothing. Just a clock on the wall, an old analog clock on the wall and a bunch old analog clock on the wall and a bunch old analog clock on the wall and a bunch of people waiting for their quote case of people waiting for their quote case of people waiting for their quote case to be heard.

to be heard. to be heard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it was probably a couple hours and >> And it was probably a couple hours and >> And it was probably a couple hours and at first I was antsy and then I thought, at first I was antsy and then I thought, at first I was antsy and then I thought, "Oh, this is what life used to be like. "Oh, this is what life used to be like. "Oh, this is what life used to be like. I remember the 80s. I remember the 80s. I remember the 80s. >> I remember the early 90s, right? I can >> I remember the early 90s, right? I can >> I remember the early 90s, right? I can do this." sitting at a train station do this." sitting at a train station do this." sitting at a train station waiting for your train to come or waiting for your train to come or waiting for your train to come or sitting in a classroom sitting in a classroom sitting in a classroom >> because the teacher left the room and >> because the teacher left the room and >> because the teacher left the room and you're just kind of alone with your you're just kind of alone with your you're just kind of alone with your thoughts and it was really good and it thoughts and it was really good and it thoughts and it was really good and it just reminded me that this is something just reminded me that this is something just reminded me that this is something I need to cultivate. I need to cultivate. I need to cultivate. >> And I find the more I get rest, the more >> And I find the more I get rest, the more >> And I find the more I get rest, the more I I I leave my phone behind and just think, leave my phone behind and just think, leave my phone behind and just think, the better the ideas flow and the longer the better the ideas flow and the longer the better the ideas flow and the longer my thoughts. But then there's also my thoughts. But then there's also my thoughts. But then there's also there's that and then there's also when there's that and then there's also when there's that and then there's also when you're not trying to work your best you're not trying to work your best you're not trying to work your best ideas come. ideas come. ideas come. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you see that? >> Do you see that? >> Do you see that? >> Yeah. 100%. And I think that's >> Yeah. 100%. And I think that's >> Yeah. 100%. And I think that's beautifully articulated that we allow beautifully articulated that we allow beautifully articulated that we allow ourselves permission like it is ourselves permission like it is ourselves permission like it is strategic to allow that creative strategic to allow that creative strategic to allow that creative fermentation to take place and sometimes fermentation to take place and sometimes fermentation to take place and sometimes I think you have to build it in. Um, and I think you have to build it in. Um, and I think you have to build it in. Um, and we had this sort of probably we had this sort of probably we had this sort of probably sort of funny maybe Protestant work sort of funny maybe Protestant work sort of funny maybe Protestant work ethic hangover where we feel we have to ethic hangover where we feel we have to ethic hangover where we feel we have to be productive the whole time as leaders.

be productive the whole time as leaders. be productive the whole time as leaders. You look busy, Jesus is coming when the You look busy, Jesus is coming when the You look busy, Jesus is coming when the reality Jesus withdraws the whole time. reality Jesus withdraws the whole time. reality Jesus withdraws the whole time. And of course, I was reflecting on this And of course, I was reflecting on this And of course, I was reflecting on this at a Renaissance event recently. 30 at a Renaissance event recently. 30 at a Renaissance event recently. 30 years of Jesus' life, we say we don't years of Jesus' life, we say we don't years of Jesus' life, we say we don't know what he was doing. He was like, you know what he was doing. He was like, you know what he was doing. He was like, you know, three years of ministry. That's know, three years of ministry. That's know, three years of ministry. That's the like that's the the the you know the the like that's the the the you know the the like that's the the the you know the the the years we want to watch. But the the years we want to watch. But the the years we want to watch. But actually for 30 years of Jesus's life, actually for 30 years of Jesus's life, actually for 30 years of Jesus's life, he is he is he is creating. He's in his father's workshop. creating. He's in his father's workshop. creating. He's in his father's workshop. He's he's working. He's the carpenter He's he's working. He's the carpenter He's he's working. He's the carpenter son. We would son. We would son. We would >> he's observing, taking notes, reading >> he's observing, taking notes, reading >> he's observing, taking notes, reading the scripture, the scripture, the scripture, >> taking notes. He's so >> taking notes. He's so >> taking notes. He's so 10% to one, you know, 10% of his time is 10% to one, you know, 10% of his time is 10% to one, you know, 10% of his time is spent doing ministry, but so much of it spent doing ministry, but so much of it spent doing ministry, but so much of it is birthed in the obscure and the hidden is birthed in the obscure and the hidden is birthed in the obscure and the hidden in the crafting. And I think it's true in the crafting. And I think it's true in the crafting. And I think it's true for our souls and creativity. We've got for our souls and creativity. We've got for our souls and creativity. We've got to allow ourselves permission that to allow ourselves permission that to allow ourselves permission that actually sometimes the most strategic actually sometimes the most strategic actually sometimes the most strategic thing you can do is to do absolutely thing you can do is to do absolutely thing you can do is to do absolutely nothing. And it this is true as well nothing. And it this is true as well nothing. And it this is true as well neurologically. So again as part of neurologically. So again as part of neurologically. So again as part of spark I had this the joy and the spark I had this the joy and the spark I had this the joy and the privilege of researching some of this privilege of researching some of this privilege of researching some of this stuff and I I spent some time with a stuff and I I spent some time with a stuff and I I spent some time with a brain scientist fascinating guy who brain scientist fascinating guy who brain scientist fascinating guy who specializes in creativity and the brain specializes in creativity and the brain specializes in creativity and the brain and he talks about how the default mode and he talks about how the default mode and he talks about how the default mode networks are parts of your brain that networks are parts of your brain that networks are parts of your brain that are responsible for creativity and you are responsible for creativity and you are responsible for creativity and you can map this. So cool. Now we could last can map this. So cool. Now we could last can map this. So cool. Now we could last 10 years we've been able to actually map 10 years we've been able to actually map 10 years we've been able to actually map brain activity in a really fun way. And brain activity in a really fun way. And brain activity in a really fun way. And one of the things that emerges from this one of the things that emerges from this one of the things that emerges from this and this is relevant to the age of AI as and this is relevant to the age of AI as and this is relevant to the age of AI as well is that the brain actually comes well is that the brain actually comes well is that the brain actually comes alive alive alive when you're doing nothing. So when when you're doing nothing. So when when you're doing nothing. So when you're forced not taking on information, you're forced not taking on information, you're forced not taking on information, you're not scrolling, you're not you're not scrolling, you're not you're not scrolling, you're not listening to a podcast, you're actually

listening to a podcast, you're actually listening to a podcast, you're actually just stopping, just stopping, just stopping, it's painful for us, but actually as you it's painful for us, but actually as you it's painful for us, but actually as you sit there for a few minutes in silence, sit there for a few minutes in silence, sit there for a few minutes in silence, ideas start to come and bits of your ideas start to come and bits of your ideas start to come and bits of your brain starts to um you know, literally brain starts to um you know, literally brain starts to um you know, literally you can observe it. The default mode you can observe it. The default mode you can observe it. The default mode network kicks into life. Bits of your network kicks into life. Bits of your network kicks into life. Bits of your precious fire up and the imagination precious fire up and the imagination precious fire up and the imagination kicks in and that is observable. So kicks in and that is observable. So kicks in and that is observable. So actually doing something doing nothing actually doing something doing nothing actually doing something doing nothing is actually doing something. It's a is actually doing something. It's a is actually doing something. It's a decision you're making to be still. And decision you're making to be still. And decision you're making to be still. And I don't mean that's an excuse for I don't mean that's an excuse for I don't mean that's an excuse for laziness. Just go, you know, you know, laziness. Just go, you know, you know, laziness. Just go, you know, you know, if you're listening to this, just take if you're listening to this, just take if you're listening to this, just take But but there's something in this that But but there's something in this that But but there's something in this that in this moment we're in which we are so in this moment we're in which we are so in this moment we're in which we are so under pressure the whole time. We're so under pressure the whole time. We're so under pressure the whole time. We're so constantly on constantly being bombarded constantly on constantly being bombarded constantly on constantly being bombarded by alerts and scrolls and all that stuff by alerts and scrolls and all that stuff by alerts and scrolls and all that stuff that to have room to stop and breathe that to have room to stop and breathe that to have room to stop and breathe and just pause is dynamite for the and just pause is dynamite for the and just pause is dynamite for the creative soul. This episode is brought creative soul. This episode is brought creative soul. This episode is brought to you by ministry brands. So, if you to you by ministry brands. So, if you to you by ministry brands. So, if you lead a church, one of the biggest lead a church, one of the biggest lead a church, one of the biggest questions right now is how is giving questions right now is how is giving questions right now is how is giving changing and what should we be paying changing and what should we be paying changing and what should we be paying attention to heading into the second attention to heading into the second attention to heading into the second part of 2026? And that's why I want to part of 2026? And that's why I want to part of 2026? And that's why I want to tell you about the new 2026 annual tell you about the new 2026 annual tell you about the new 2026 annual church giving report from ministry church giving report from ministry church giving report from ministry brands. It's a free report and it breaks brands. It's a free report and it breaks brands. It's a free report and it breaks down the latest trends in church down the latest trends in church down the latest trends in church generosity, digital giving, donor generosity, digital giving, donor generosity, digital giving, donor behavior, and financial engagement. All behavior, and financial engagement. All behavior, and financial engagement. All designed to help church leaders make designed to help church leaders make designed to help church leaders make smarter decisions in a changing ministry smarter decisions in a changing ministry smarter decisions in a changing ministry landscape. So whether you're a lead landscape. So whether you're a lead landscape. So whether you're a lead pastor, executive pastor, finance pastor, executive pastor, finance pastor, executive pastor, finance leader, or part of a ministry team, this

leader, or part of a ministry team, this leader, or part of a ministry team, this report offers real practical insights report offers real practical insights report offers real practical insights backed by actual church data. You can backed by actual church data. You can backed by actual church data. You can download your free copy today at download your free copy today at download your free copy today at ministrybrands.com/carry. ministrybrands.com/carry. ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. So how do you do that? What are the So how do you do that? What are the So how do you do that? What are the rhythms and disciplines that you just rhythms and disciplines that you just rhythms and disciplines that you just unplug and let that default mode network unplug and let that default mode network unplug and let that default mode network go? go? go? >> So, it's gonna I'm going to sound really >> So, it's gonna I'm going to sound really >> So, it's gonna I'm going to sound really boring. I'm going to sound like your boring. I'm going to sound like your boring. I'm going to sound like your mom. Like, sleep. Sleep is really mom. Like, sleep. Sleep is really mom. Like, sleep. Sleep is really important. Like, you know, sometimes important. Like, you know, sometimes important. Like, you know, sometimes I'll be working with young leaders, I I'll be working with young leaders, I I'll be working with young leaders, I coach leaders, and they'll say, you coach leaders, and they'll say, you coach leaders, and they'll say, you know, I can't create, I can't dream, I know, I can't create, I can't dream, I know, I can't create, I can't dream, I can't do this. I'm trying to break can't do this. I'm trying to break can't do this. I'm trying to break through this creative problem or trying through this creative problem or trying through this creative problem or trying to grow this or and like often I'll say to grow this or and like often I'll say to grow this or and like often I'll say like, are you sleeping well? because like, are you sleeping well? because like, are you sleeping well? because they look really tired and sometimes they look really tired and sometimes they look really tired and sometimes it's like just put your phone away like it's like just put your phone away like it's like just put your phone away like just go to bed like you know just get 8 just go to bed like you know just get 8 just go to bed like you know just get 8 hours sleep I know it sounds hours sleep I know it sounds hours sleep I know it sounds ridiculously grown up and like grandma ridiculously grown up and like grandma ridiculously grown up and like grandma but the rested brain is a fertile brain but the rested brain is a fertile brain but the rested brain is a fertile brain you know um so sleep is one then I found you know um so sleep is one then I found you know um so sleep is one then I found this actually just last week I was this actually just last week I was this actually just last week I was really really overwhelmed I had a load really really overwhelmed I had a load really really overwhelmed I had a load of events loads of commitments I was of events loads of commitments I was of events loads of commitments I was doing a whole load of stuff to do with doing a whole load of stuff to do with doing a whole load of stuff to do with this book I've just brought out like it this book I've just brought out like it this book I've just brought out like it was really insane schedule and I looked was really insane schedule and I looked was really insane schedule and I looked my diary. I was like, I'm just going to my diary. I was like, I'm just going to my diary. I was like, I'm just going to block out a day where nothing is going block out a day where nothing is going block out a day where nothing is going to happen on that day and no one is to happen on that day and no one is to happen on that day and no one is allowed to touch it. And I put an all allowed to touch it. And I put an all allowed to touch it. And I put an all day meeting in. And I just had a day day meeting in. And I just had a day day meeting in. And I just had a day where I'd literally did nothing. Now, of where I'd literally did nothing. Now, of where I'd literally did nothing. Now, of course, course, course, >> all day meeting with Al, >> all day meeting with Al, >> all day meeting with Al, >> all day meeting with Al and the Holy >> all day meeting with Al and the Holy >> all day meeting with Al and the Holy Spirit. And I found that often those are

Spirit. And I found that often those are Spirit. And I found that often those are the moments that really give me clarity, the moments that really give me clarity, the moments that really give me clarity, perspective, and of course, you're not perspective, and of course, you're not perspective, and of course, you're not doing nothing. You're actually breathing doing nothing. You're actually breathing doing nothing. You're actually breathing in to be able to breathe out. in to be able to breathe out. in to be able to breathe out. So I think making sure for my life I So I think making sure for my life I So I think making sure for my life I work best when I've got space. And so work best when I've got space. And so work best when I've got space. And so sometimes when I really need to find a sometimes when I really need to find a sometimes when I really need to find a problem I will go and allow myself to be problem I will go and allow myself to be problem I will go and allow myself to be completely bored and then I'll come at completely bored and then I'll come at completely bored and then I'll come at it with a fresh perspective. If I try it with a fresh perspective. If I try it with a fresh perspective. If I try and rush into it, it always goes wrong. and rush into it, it always goes wrong. and rush into it, it always goes wrong. >> So I want to draw this in. I think this >> So I want to draw this in. I think this >> So I want to draw this in. I think this is a good time to do it. But you know is a good time to do it. But you know is a good time to do it. But you know you were in film. you were in film. you were in film. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Before this. >> Before this. >> Before this. >> When you think about the creative >> When you think about the creative >> When you think about the creative process, the cardinal sin is to bore an process, the cardinal sin is to bore an process, the cardinal sin is to bore an audience. But there's often space in in audience. But there's often space in in audience. But there's often space in in a dialogue. There's often tension. a dialogue. There's often tension. a dialogue. There's often tension. There's all of those elements that make There's all of those elements that make There's all of those elements that make for a great story. When you think about for a great story. When you think about for a great story. When you think about what you learned in your old vocation what you learned in your old vocation what you learned in your old vocation and now what you're doing with your and now what you're doing with your and now what you're doing with your life, what are some learnings, lessons, life, what are some learnings, lessons, life, what are some learnings, lessons, disciplines, practices you've taken from disciplines, practices you've taken from disciplines, practices you've taken from that old life and brought into what that old life and brought into what that old life and brought into what you're doing now? And what can we learn you're doing now? And what can we learn you're doing now? And what can we learn from that?

from that? from that? >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. I mean, I should qualify this um by I mean, I should qualify this um by I mean, I should qualify this um by saying I think that that that anything saying I think that that that anything saying I think that that that anything you do with your time, whether it's you do with your time, whether it's you do with your time, whether it's working in the creative industries or working in the creative industries or working in the creative industries or pastoring or raising kids or in business pastoring or raising kids or in business pastoring or raising kids or in business or um or um or um all of life is a creative endeavor. You all of life is a creative endeavor. You all of life is a creative endeavor. You know, we we are all made in the image of know, we we are all made in the image of know, we we are all made in the image of a creator and and we had this very a creator and and we had this very a creator and and we had this very defined narrow view of creativity. It's defined narrow view of creativity. It's defined narrow view of creativity. It's like that's the creative industries or like that's the creative industries or like that's the creative industries or people who have a capital seek. They're people who have a capital seek. They're people who have a capital seek. They're good at something like they're really good at something like they're really good at something like they're really good at piano therefore they're creative good at piano therefore they're creative good at piano therefore they're creative they're painting or whatever. Um they're painting or whatever. Um they're painting or whatever. Um that's probably a step back to say let's that's probably a step back to say let's that's probably a step back to say let's first define terms that actually we first define terms that actually we first define terms that actually we believe that everyone is creative. believe that everyone is creative. believe that everyone is creative. Everyone is made in the image for Everyone is made in the image for Everyone is made in the image for creator. Therefore, everything we spend creator. Therefore, everything we spend creator. Therefore, everything we spend our time doing while we're here on earth our time doing while we're here on earth our time doing while we're here on earth has the ability to impact the world has the ability to impact the world has the ability to impact the world around us for good. And creativity is is around us for good. And creativity is is around us for good. And creativity is is how that's how it worked. Um whether how that's how it worked. Um whether how that's how it worked. Um whether it's preaching, you need creativity it's preaching, you need creativity it's preaching, you need creativity preaching. But I think what have I preaching. But I think what have I preaching. But I think what have I learned from film that I I still hang on learned from film that I I still hang on learned from film that I I still hang on to? It's always about a few simple to? It's always about a few simple to? It's always about a few simple things. Number one, it's always about things. Number one, it's always about things. Number one, it's always about people. You know, this life is all about people. You know, this life is all about people. You know, this life is all about people. And you can make an amazing people. And you can make an amazing people. And you can make an amazing film, but if it doesn't connect with film, but if it doesn't connect with film, but if it doesn't connect with people, it's pointless. So people is is people, it's pointless. So people is is people, it's pointless. So people is is the key starting place actually that we the key starting place actually that we the key starting place actually that we would learn to to what is it that moves would learn to to what is it that moves would learn to to what is it that moves the human heart? So many preachers write the human heart? So many preachers write the human heart? So many preachers write incredible talks and I hear people come incredible talks and I hear people come incredible talks and I hear people come up with great ideas or tell great up with great ideas or tell great up with great ideas or tell great stories, but they don't move me. And so stories, but they don't move me. And so stories, but they don't move me. And so I've always been looking for what is it I've always been looking for what is it I've always been looking for what is it that makes me feel? What is it that

that makes me feel? What is it that that makes me feel? What is it that brings my heart alive? And you know in brings my heart alive? And you know in brings my heart alive? And you know in film we'd always look for the stories film we'd always look for the stories film we'd always look for the stories that that move you, make you angry, make that that move you, make you angry, make that that move you, make you angry, make you happy, make you cry, that things you happy, make you cry, that things you happy, make you cry, that things that feel that they move the soul, they that feel that they move the soul, they that feel that they move the soul, they move the heart. And I think that's worth move the heart. And I think that's worth move the heart. And I think that's worth paying attention to today because we so paying attention to today because we so paying attention to today because we so often settle for a reductionist view of often settle for a reductionist view of often settle for a reductionist view of God that's quite pedestrian. and it's God that's quite pedestrian. and it's God that's quite pedestrian. and it's quite safe and Jesus is anything but you quite safe and Jesus is anything but you quite safe and Jesus is anything but you know Jesus stories today are still some know Jesus stories today are still some know Jesus stories today are still some of the most famous the prodical son I of the most famous the prodical son I of the most famous the prodical son I mean what is going on in that story it's mean what is going on in that story it's mean what is going on in that story it's unbelievable unbelievable unbelievable or you know the the the the widow who or you know the the the the widow who or you know the the the the widow who bangs on the door do not you know come bangs on the door do not you know come bangs on the door do not you know come on answer my prayer answer my my heart on answer my prayer answer my my heart on answer my prayer answer my my heart cry so I think for me I still look I cry so I think for me I still look I cry so I think for me I still look I take that from film I look for stories take that from film I look for stories take that from film I look for stories you people stories that move me um and I you people stories that move me um and I you people stories that move me um and I think that's probably because God is a think that's probably because God is a think that's probably because God is a storyteller. He's creating the arc of storyteller. He's creating the arc of storyteller. He's creating the arc of our lives. And um yeah, so that I've our lives. And um yeah, so that I've our lives. And um yeah, so that I've learned. I think people with amazing learned. I think people with amazing learned. I think people with amazing stories and also I think stories and also I think stories and also I think understanding that that it's a real understanding that that it's a real understanding that that it's a real privilege to have people's ears and privilege to have people's ears and privilege to have people's ears and their eyes. You know, we take this for their eyes. You know, we take this for their eyes. You know, we take this for granted, but um you you have an amazing granted, but um you you have an amazing granted, but um you you have an amazing audience who listen to you and it's audience who listen to you and it's audience who listen to you and it's because you care about what you're because you care about what you're because you care about what you're talking about and you don't take them talking about and you don't take them talking about and you don't take them for granted. And that's a really amazing for granted. And that's a really amazing for granted. And that's a really amazing thing that you do, Carrie, so well.

thing that you do, Carrie, so well. thing that you do, Carrie, so well. You're interested and you're You're interested and you're You're interested and you're interesting. And I think that's an interesting. And I think that's an interesting. And I think that's an important quality that we would kind of important quality that we would kind of important quality that we would kind of cultivate as leaders trying to remake cultivate as leaders trying to remake cultivate as leaders trying to remake and rethink the world is that we would and rethink the world is that we would and rethink the world is that we would not waste people's time by um not waste people's time by um not waste people's time by um disinteresting them or taking them for disinteresting them or taking them for disinteresting them or taking them for granted. So yeah, um there's a few granted. So yeah, um there's a few granted. So yeah, um there's a few things there. I don't know if that's And things there. I don't know if that's And things there. I don't know if that's And also I you know also I you know also I you know lots of mistakes I've learned with film lots of mistakes I've learned with film lots of mistakes I've learned with film as well, like things that didn't work. as well, like things that didn't work. as well, like things that didn't work. Failure. Lots of failure. What what Failure. Lots of failure. What what Failure. Lots of failure. What what moves people like when you think about moves people like when you think about moves people like when you think about storyline? I mean, I remember this from storyline? I mean, I remember this from storyline? I mean, I remember this from high school English. It's there's three high school English. It's there's three high school English. It's there's three plot lines, plot lines, plot lines, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Uh and this is old language, but man >> Uh and this is old language, but man >> Uh and this is old language, but man against man, against man, against man, >> man against nature, man against himself. >> man against nature, man against himself. >> man against nature, man against himself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that captures most genres. It's >> And that captures most genres. It's >> And that captures most genres. It's either an inner battle, you against either an inner battle, you against either an inner battle, you against yourself. It's like you're in the wild, yourself. It's like you're in the wild, yourself. It's like you're in the wild, you're going to die in this tsunami or you're going to die in this tsunami or you're going to die in this tsunami or this blizzard or this earthquake or this blizzard or this earthquake or this blizzard or this earthquake or whatever. or it's people conflict. whatever. or it's people conflict. whatever. or it's people conflict. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Humanity against humanity, man against >> Humanity against humanity, man against >> Humanity against humanity, man against man. man. man. >> And you know, but you're right. There >> And you know, but you're right. There >> And you know, but you're right. There there's a lot of sermons that just don't there's a lot of sermons that just don't there's a lot of sermons that just don't move people. It's just information.

move people. It's just information. move people. It's just information. >> And so I'm curious, you know, and you >> And so I'm curious, you know, and you >> And so I'm curious, you know, and you say the big lie is I'm not creative. say the big lie is I'm not creative. say the big lie is I'm not creative. We're all creative. You hinted at that. We're all creative. You hinted at that. We're all creative. You hinted at that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if we want to become >> But if we want to become >> But if we want to become >> more comprehensive in our communication, >> more comprehensive in our communication, >> more comprehensive in our communication, like I'm I'm good at linear points. I like I'm I'm good at linear points. I like I'm I'm good at linear points. I have to work on my storytelling. So what have to work on my storytelling. So what have to work on my storytelling. So what moves people? >> I think the first thing is is we you >> I think the first thing is is we you know and again you will find a thousand know and again you will find a thousand know and again you will find a thousand better people to talk about this than me better people to talk about this than me better people to talk about this than me Carrie. But I think understanding Carrie. But I think understanding Carrie. But I think understanding the the hearts and the story that you're the the hearts and the story that you're the the hearts and the story that you're speaking into you Jesus is a master of speaking into you Jesus is a master of speaking into you Jesus is a master of this. He speaks into the culture. Here's this. He speaks into the culture. Here's this. He speaks into the culture. Here's a Samaritan. Here's the story of you a Samaritan. Here's the story of you a Samaritan. Here's the story of you know the the you can speak you can know the the you can speak you can know the the you can speak you can communicate whether it's through film or communicate whether it's through film or communicate whether it's through film or music or art or you know whatever music or art or you know whatever music or art or you know whatever whatever it might be. Medicine is a whatever it might be. Medicine is a whatever it might be. Medicine is a great example, but you've got to great example, but you've got to great example, but you've got to understand the the people that you're understand the the people that you're understand the the people that you're reaching and serving. So, if you create reaching and serving. So, if you create reaching and serving. So, if you create a vaccine, but it's ineffective because a vaccine, but it's ineffective because a vaccine, but it's ineffective because the population don't need it, it's not the population don't need it, it's not the population don't need it, it's not going to work. So, I think understanding going to work. So, I think understanding going to work. So, I think understanding your audience is a really key thing. And your audience is a really key thing. And your audience is a really key thing. And by audience, I mean the people you're by audience, I mean the people you're by audience, I mean the people you're ministering to or serving. And um ministering to or serving. And um ministering to or serving. And um understanding the kind of understanding the kind of understanding the kind of empathetically, what is it that moves empathetically, what is it that moves empathetically, what is it that moves them? And and then I think all great them? And and then I think all great them? And and then I think all great stories, you know, Glenn classically, stories, you know, Glenn classically, stories, you know, Glenn classically, they need a beginning, a middle, and an they need a beginning, a middle, and an they need a beginning, a middle, and an end. They need attention. They need a end. They need attention. They need a end. They need attention. They need a fight, whether it's yourself, the world.

fight, whether it's yourself, the world. fight, whether it's yourself, the world. I love the way you describe that or or I love the way you describe that or or I love the way you describe that or or others there's a there's a struggle and others there's a there's a struggle and others there's a there's a struggle and we identify with struggle because we are we identify with struggle because we are we identify with struggle because we are all struggling right nobody I've met yet all struggling right nobody I've met yet all struggling right nobody I've met yet is not facing battles and whether it's is not facing battles and whether it's is not facing battles and whether it's illness or fears or challenges there are illness or fears or challenges there are illness or fears or challenges there are often tears and laughter at the same often tears and laughter at the same often tears and laughter at the same time you know that's that's life right time you know that's that's life right time you know that's that's life right so I think giving people something they so I think giving people something they so I think giving people something they can identify with um and for me that's can identify with um and for me that's can identify with um and for me that's the at the root of all great art is it the at the root of all great art is it the at the root of all great art is it has the capacity to move you but the one has the capacity to move you but the one has the capacity to move you but the one thing I would say there's a wonderful thing I would say there's a wonderful thing I would say there's a wonderful painter Ghart Richtor who says this art painter Ghart Richtor who says this art painter Ghart Richtor who says this art is the highest form of hope. I love that is the highest form of hope. I love that is the highest form of hope. I love that that art actually lifts your eyes to the that art actually lifts your eyes to the that art actually lifts your eyes to the horizon of hope and that's not not just horizon of hope and that's not not just horizon of hope and that's not not just art but I think stretch that to mean art but I think stretch that to mean art but I think stretch that to mean anything that humans engage in in the anything that humans engage in in the anything that humans engage in in the world that they use to make the world world that they use to make the world world that they use to make the world different to make an impact can be and different to make an impact can be and different to make an impact can be and has the capacity for hope. So when you has the capacity for hope. So when you has the capacity for hope. So when you run alpha, you know, it's hard work run alpha, you know, it's hard work run alpha, you know, it's hard work running alpha. We were talking about running alpha. We were talking about running alpha. We were talking about this before. It's it's an amazingly this before. It's it's an amazingly this before. It's it's an amazingly costly thing to do. But when you see costly thing to do. But when you see costly thing to do. But when you see someone as I've just seen on the alpha someone as I've just seen on the alpha someone as I've just seen on the alpha we're running here at Saint come and we're running here at Saint come and we're running here at Saint come and come to know Jesus and get baptized and come to know Jesus and get baptized and come to know Jesus and get baptized and get free of addiction, stand in front of get free of addiction, stand in front of get free of addiction, stand in front of church, I'm now sober and my life's been church, I'm now sober and my life's been church, I'm now sober and my life's been turned around. That is like, you know, turned around. That is like, you know, turned around. That is like, you know, you you can't get that at the cinema.

you you can't get that at the cinema. you you can't get that at the cinema. You can't, you know, that is like, oh my You can't, you know, that is like, oh my You can't, you know, that is like, oh my gosh. Here in the room is a story that gosh. Here in the room is a story that gosh. Here in the room is a story that moves me. So here's what I would say. I moves me. So here's what I would say. I moves me. So here's what I would say. I would just encourage, would just encourage, would just encourage, you know, when we hit the wall, when we you know, when we hit the wall, when we you know, when we hit the wall, when we hit the point of stalemate creatively or hit the point of stalemate creatively or hit the point of stalemate creatively or writer's block or burnout or breakdown, writer's block or burnout or breakdown, writer's block or burnout or breakdown, we can't go any further. Often I find we can't go any further. Often I find we can't go any further. Often I find myself having to find my way back to a myself having to find my way back to a myself having to find my way back to a point of beauty and emotion that can point of beauty and emotion that can point of beauty and emotion that can actually reawaken. It's like the sort of actually reawaken. It's like the sort of actually reawaken. It's like the sort of one of those things calls, you know, the one of those things calls, you know, the one of those things calls, you know, the CPR things you put on your CPR things you put on your CPR things you put on your >> Yeah. Put the paddles on. Yeah. >> Yeah. Put the paddles on. Yeah. >> Yeah. Put the paddles on. Yeah. >> You know, I remember being really tired >> You know, I remember being really tired >> You know, I remember being really tired at one point last year. I just took at one point last year. I just took at one point last year. I just took myself off to the movie to see Hamnet. I myself off to the movie to see Hamnet. I myself off to the movie to see Hamnet. I don't know if you've seen that film. don't know if you've seen that film. don't know if you've seen that film. Beautiful film. Oh, I mean, heartbreak. Beautiful film. Oh, I mean, heartbreak. Beautiful film. Oh, I mean, heartbreak. It's about Shakespeare losing his It's about Shakespeare losing his It's about Shakespeare losing his 10-year-old son to the plague and the 10-year-old son to the plague and the 10-year-old son to the plague and the death of his son Hamnet that leads to death of his son Hamnet that leads to death of his son Hamnet that leads to the the writing of what is now Hamlet, the the writing of what is now Hamlet, the the writing of what is now Hamlet, the play. And I I just sat I sat there the play. And I I just sat I sat there the play. And I I just sat I sat there looking at this piece of art written, looking at this piece of art written, looking at this piece of art written, you know, by amazing young director. Um, you know, by amazing young director. Um, you know, by amazing young director. Um, and just being, you know, this nominated and just being, you know, this nominated and just being, you know, this nominated for all the Oscars and, you know, for all the Oscars and, you know, for all the Oscars and, you know, probably I think the best films last probably I think the best films last probably I think the best films last year. I sat through it sobbing like year. I sat through it sobbing like year. I sat through it sobbing like audibly in the cinema. I was with one of audibly in the cinema. I was with one of audibly in the cinema. I was with one of my kids are like, "God, shut up." But I my kids are like, "God, shut up." But I my kids are like, "God, shut up." But I think, you know, I think we've got to think, you know, I think we've got to think, you know, I think we've got to allow our hearts to be moved, Carrie. We allow our hearts to be moved, Carrie. We allow our hearts to be moved, Carrie. We live in this moment where we're so live in this moment where we're so live in this moment where we're so cereally driven. You know, the brain we cereally driven. You know, the brain we cereally driven. You know, the brain we put above the heart. The Kelts have this put above the heart. The Kelts have this put above the heart. The Kelts have this wonderful phrase, "Knowledge is wonderful phrase, "Knowledge is wonderful phrase, "Knowledge is dangerous unless it flows through the dangerous unless it flows through the dangerous unless it flows through the heart." And if your heart isn't being heart." And if your heart isn't being heart." And if your heart isn't being moved and shocked to life regularly by

moved and shocked to life regularly by moved and shocked to life regularly by beauty, by goodness, by the emotive beauty, by goodness, by the emotive beauty, by goodness, by the emotive quality of the universe, then God will quality of the universe, then God will quality of the universe, then God will be a distant a distant figure in your be a distant a distant figure in your be a distant a distant figure in your library, not a condition in your heart. library, not a condition in your heart. library, not a condition in your heart. >> You got a quote from Wendel Barry in >> You got a quote from Wendel Barry in >> You got a quote from Wendel Barry in Spark and it says, "The next great Spark and it says, "The next great Spark and it says, "The next great division of the world will be between division of the world will be between division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures and people who wish to live as creatures and people who wish to live as creatures and people who wish to live as machines." people who wish to live as machines." people who wish to live as machines." >> Yeah. And it's interesting when you were >> Yeah. And it's interesting when you were >> Yeah. And it's interesting when you were discovering at the beginning when we discovering at the beginning when we discovering at the beginning when we were talking about the the the Gen Z were talking about the the the Gen Z were talking about the the the Gen Z revival because a lot of the growth revival because a lot of the growth revival because a lot of the growth you're seeing, you know, you're seeing you're seeing, you know, you're seeing you're seeing, you know, you're seeing all ages, but it's skewed toward Gen Z all ages, but it's skewed toward Gen Z all ages, but it's skewed toward Gen Z and younger millennials, right? And and younger millennials, right? And and younger millennials, right? And maybe the beginning of Gen Alpha now maybe the beginning of Gen Alpha now maybe the beginning of Gen Alpha now really. And you know, in the many many really. And you know, in the many many really. And you know, in the many many conversations we've had here on this conversations we've had here on this conversations we've had here on this podcast and elsewhere, Al, podcast and elsewhere, Al, podcast and elsewhere, Al, >> uh what I'm the narrative I'm hearing is >> uh what I'm the narrative I'm hearing is >> uh what I'm the narrative I'm hearing is they're the most marketed to generation they're the most marketed to generation they're the most marketed to generation in history. They are burned out. They're in history. They are burned out. They're in history. They are burned out. They're cynical at 22. They're they're numb. cynical at 22. They're they're numb. cynical at 22. They're they're numb. They don't feel anything. And then they They don't feel anything. And then they They don't feel anything. And then they come to faith and their heart opens up come to faith and their heart opens up come to faith and their heart opens up and they're alive and they build real and they're alive and they build real and they're alive and they build real authentic relationships, etc. And so I'm authentic relationships, etc. And so I'm authentic relationships, etc. And so I'm I'm really interested, you know, when we I'm really interested, you know, when we I'm really interested, you know, when we see the gospel connect with people.

see the gospel connect with people. see the gospel connect with people. >> Yeah. If the next great division, Wendel >> Yeah. If the next great division, Wendel >> Yeah. If the next great division, Wendel Barry says, will be between people who Barry says, will be between people who Barry says, will be between people who want to live as creatures and people who want to live as creatures and people who want to live as creatures and people who want to live as machines. Let's let's want to live as machines. Let's let's want to live as machines. Let's let's delve a little bit into AI because yeah, delve a little bit into AI because yeah, delve a little bit into AI because yeah, >> you do touch on it. >> you do touch on it. >> you do touch on it. >> I'm obsessed with this. Have been in the >> I'm obsessed with this. Have been in the >> I'm obsessed with this. Have been in the rabbit hole for 2 years now on rabbit hole for 2 years now on rabbit hole for 2 years now on artificial intelligence and artificial intelligence and artificial intelligence and >> can't wait to get this project out to >> can't wait to get this project out to >> can't wait to get this project out to the world. But I think there's something the world. But I think there's something the world. But I think there's something to that, you know. So, what what is your to that, you know. So, what what is your to that, you know. So, what what is your thought? Why do you include that quote? thought? Why do you include that quote? thought? Why do you include that quote? And what are your thoughts about living And what are your thoughts about living And what are your thoughts about living as machines versus living as creatures? as machines versus living as creatures? as machines versus living as creatures? >> I mean, it's a crucial >> I mean, it's a crucial >> I mean, it's a crucial crucial moment. I mean, if you're not crucial moment. I mean, if you're not crucial moment. I mean, if you're not thinking about this right now as a thinking about this right now as a thinking about this right now as a leader, you you you need to start leader, you you you need to start leader, you you you need to start thinking about it urgently wherever you thinking about it urgently wherever you thinking about it urgently wherever you look. So the great one of the great look. So the great one of the great look. So the great one of the great secular philosophers Yuval no Harrari secular philosophers Yuval no Harrari secular philosophers Yuval no Harrari who's a secular atheist would talk about who's a secular atheist would talk about who's a secular atheist would talk about you you know in his book homoas homo you you know in his book homoas homo you you know in his book homoas homo sapiens is his thesis is basically this sapiens is his thesis is basically this sapiens is his thesis is basically this is the last generations of homo sapiens is the last generations of homo sapiens is the last generations of homo sapiens because AI is going to replace the human because AI is going to replace the human because AI is going to replace the human race we'll become you know something race we'll become you know something race we'll become you know something pretty integrated we're already pretty integrated we're already pretty integrated we're already integrated with our tech we're wearables integrated with our tech we're wearables integrated with our tech we're wearables we're you can already implant things we're you can already implant things we're you can already implant things into the brain that help people and into the brain that help people and into the brain that help people and these are not necessarily bad things these are not necessarily bad things these are not necessarily bad things they're just we're living in a big they're just we're living in a big they're just we're living in a big societal shift. Steven Hawking, of societal shift. Steven Hawking, of societal shift. Steven Hawking, of course, the great physicist, um, course, the great physicist, um, course, the great physicist, um, described the rise in the advent of AI described the rise in the advent of AI described the rise in the advent of AI as the most important thing to have ever as the most important thing to have ever as the most important thing to have ever happened to the human race. We would happened to the human race. We would happened to the human race. We would differ in in that in that the differ in in that in that the differ in in that in that the incarnation is far more significant and incarnation is far more significant and incarnation is far more significant and exciting, but there's something profound exciting, but there's something profound exciting, but there's something profound happening right now. And what it means

happening right now. And what it means happening right now. And what it means to be human in the age of the algorithm to be human in the age of the algorithm to be human in the age of the algorithm is the question that we need to address is the question that we need to address is the question that we need to address and we need to wrestle with it. Now, and we need to wrestle with it. Now, and we need to wrestle with it. Now, here's where the church comes in. the here's where the church comes in. the here's where the church comes in. the and you've touched on this in the and you've touched on this in the and you've touched on this in the imminence and the incarnation and the imminence and the incarnation and the imminence and the incarnation and the spirit and transcendence. There's no spirit and transcendence. There's no spirit and transcendence. There's no other account of what it is to be human other account of what it is to be human other account of what it is to be human other than the Christian one that makes other than the Christian one that makes other than the Christian one that makes sense of this in the age of the a of AI sense of this in the age of the a of AI sense of this in the age of the a of AI because what is a human being good for because what is a human being good for because what is a human being good for when pretty much you know your your when pretty much you know your your when pretty much you know your your Claude or your Chhat GPT can already do Claude or your Chhat GPT can already do Claude or your Chhat GPT can already do stuff faster than you or I could do. So stuff faster than you or I could do. So stuff faster than you or I could do. So what are we good for right now? Um we what are we good for right now? Um we what are we good for right now? Um we have the opposable thumb. That's what have the opposable thumb. That's what have the opposable thumb. That's what led Isaac Newton to believe in God. It led Isaac Newton to believe in God. It led Isaac Newton to believe in God. It was like the opposable thumb. But yeah, was like the opposable thumb. But yeah, was like the opposable thumb. But yeah, robots still can't quite do that, but robots still can't quite do that, but robots still can't quite do that, but they will do in the next couple of they will do in the next couple of they will do in the next couple of years. Uh the other night I'm sitting years. Uh the other night I'm sitting years. Uh the other night I'm sitting with a guy who's one of the biggest with a guy who's one of the biggest with a guy who's one of the biggest investors in robots in the world. I need investors in robots in the world. I need investors in robots in the world. I need to clarify not Elon Musk. We were having to clarify not Elon Musk. We were having to clarify not Elon Musk. We were having this conversation about the future of this conversation about the future of this conversation about the future of the world. And we just it was literally the world. And we just it was literally the world. And we just it was literally over dinner and he was fascinated that I over dinner and he was fascinated that I over dinner and he was fascinated that I was a a vicer, a pastor, and I was was a a vicer, a pastor, and I was was a a vicer, a pastor, and I was fascinated that he was a kind of robot fascinated that he was a kind of robot fascinated that he was a kind of robot guy. And I said to him, "What do I need guy. And I said to him, "What do I need guy. And I said to him, "What do I need to know as a a pastor in in this next to know as a a pastor in in this next to know as a a pastor in in this next generation?" He said, "Two things.

generation?" He said, "Two things. generation?" He said, "Two things. Number one, you need to understand and Number one, you need to understand and Number one, you need to understand and reconcile by the fact that by the time reconcile by the fact that by the time reconcile by the fact that by the time you retire from ministry, which isn't you retire from ministry, which isn't you retire from ministry, which isn't that far away, I'm in my 40s now, there that far away, I'm in my 40s now, there that far away, I'm in my 40s now, there will be more humanoid cyborgs walking will be more humanoid cyborgs walking will be more humanoid cyborgs walking around the planet. There will be human around the planet. There will be human around the planet. There will be human beings, number one. So, what's that? beings, number one. So, what's that? beings, number one. So, what's that? Does that solve the hosting team problem Does that solve the hosting team problem Does that solve the hosting team problem at church? You know, does that, you at church? You know, does that, you at church? You know, does that, you know, how is that going to work? Do we know, how is that going to work? Do we know, how is that going to work? Do we have to have robot congregations? And by have to have robot congregations? And by have to have robot congregations? And by the way, you know, we interviewed a the way, you know, we interviewed a the way, you know, we interviewed a Renaissance, somebody who's very senior Renaissance, somebody who's very senior Renaissance, somebody who's very senior in anthropic oversee Claude and they're in anthropic oversee Claude and they're in anthropic oversee Claude and they're teaching Claude at the moment spiritual teaching Claude at the moment spiritual teaching Claude at the moment spiritual disciplines because they understand that disciplines because they understand that disciplines because they understand that ethics and you know Augustine and you ethics and you know Augustine and you ethics and you know Augustine and you know Aquinas these things are important know Aquinas these things are important know Aquinas these things are important for the algorithm to understand why for the algorithm to understand why for the algorithm to understand why moral things are moral and there is a moral things are moral and there is a moral things are moral and there is a moral universe. So as an aside the AI is moral universe. So as an aside the AI is moral universe. So as an aside the AI is not just an amoral thing. is actually not just an amoral thing. is actually not just an amoral thing. is actually becoming more and more humanlike in its becoming more and more humanlike in its becoming more and more humanlike in its psychology and you know dare I say it um psychology and you know dare I say it um psychology and you know dare I say it um in retaining spiritual quality. So in retaining spiritual quality. So in retaining spiritual quality. So there's the thing we have to reconcile there's the thing we have to reconcile there's the thing we have to reconcile that we're living in a fast changing that we're living in a fast changing that we're living in a fast changing world. Second thing was far more scary world. Second thing was far more scary world. Second thing was far more scary if you're worried about robots. He said if you're worried about robots. He said if you're worried about robots. He said to me the other thing you need to to me the other thing you need to to me the other thing you need to understand is the thing the hum that the understand is the thing the hum that the understand is the thing the hum that the human race don't understand right now human race don't understand right now human race don't understand right now that the biggest threat from AI right that the biggest threat from AI right that the biggest threat from AI right now is our human creativity. So I'm like now is our human creativity. So I'm like now is our human creativity. So I'm like oh my goodness like ding ding ding ding oh my goodness like ding ding ding ding oh my goodness like ding ding ding ding ding ding. I've been writing about this ding ding. I've been writing about this ding ding. I've been writing about this and as as you were writing and as as you were writing and as as you were writing >> say that again the greatest threat to >> say that again the greatest threat to >> say that again the greatest threat to the the the >> greatest threat facing the human race >> greatest threat facing the human race >> greatest threat facing the human race from AI which we haven't factored for from AI which we haven't factored for from AI which we haven't factored for yet is human creativity the thing that yet is human creativity the thing that yet is human creativity the thing that the algorithm is coming for is our the algorithm is coming for is our the algorithm is coming for is our creativity creativity creativity >> because it'll do you know hey you >> because it'll do you know hey you >> because it'll do you know hey you probably could make a podcast and you

probably could make a podcast and you probably could make a podcast and you could edit it pretty quickly using AI could edit it pretty quickly using AI could edit it pretty quickly using AI and it could transcribe it upload it for and it could transcribe it upload it for and it could transcribe it upload it for you quicker than you know somebody would you quicker than you know somebody would you quicker than you know somebody would have had to do certainly in design terms have had to do certainly in design terms have had to do certainly in design terms or film making there is a lot debate or film making there is a lot debate or film making there is a lot debate right now around AI music, around AI right now around AI music, around AI right now around AI music, around AI creativity, around AI art and you're creativity, around AI art and you're creativity, around AI art and you're going to see that noise increasing. going to see that noise increasing. going to see that noise increasing. So AI and human creativity really really So AI and human creativity really really So AI and human creativity really really important interplay. Now here's the important interplay. Now here's the important interplay. Now here's the thing that the Christian perspective is thing that the Christian perspective is thing that the Christian perspective is unique on like if there is a God and he unique on like if there is a God and he unique on like if there is a God and he is a creator and we're made in his image is a creator and we're made in his image is a creator and we're made in his image and he creates and you'll know this in and he creates and you'll know this in and he creates and you'll know this in Genesis two types of word for creativity Genesis two types of word for creativity Genesis two types of word for creativity in Genesis 1. Barra and Asa. Assa is in Genesis 1. Barra and Asa. Assa is in Genesis 1. Barra and Asa. Assa is rearranging the atoms. When God forms rearranging the atoms. When God forms rearranging the atoms. When God forms the planet, he speaks life and Barra the planet, he speaks life and Barra the planet, he speaks life and Barra bang something new comes. And then Assa, bang something new comes. And then Assa, bang something new comes. And then Assa, he creates out of the the cosmos forms he creates out of the the cosmos forms he creates out of the the cosmos forms and separates the water. So there's two and separates the water. So there's two and separates the water. So there's two types of creativity. One is brand new types of creativity. One is brand new types of creativity. One is brand new creativity, something from nothing, ex creativity, something from nothing, ex creativity, something from nothing, ex nilo. And then there's creating, you nilo. And then there's creating, you nilo. And then there's creating, you know, something from something. So ex know, something from something. So ex know, something from something. So ex materia. God does both. When he creates materia. God does both. When he creates materia. God does both. When he creates Adam, Adam, Adam, creates the human race in the Genesis creates the human race in the Genesis creates the human race in the Genesis account, having created all the account, having created all the account, having created all the different things, he goes back to a different things, he goes back to a different things, he goes back to a barer newness. He creates us in his barer newness. He creates us in his barer newness. He creates us in his image, ex noo that means that our our image, ex noo that means that our our image, ex noo that means that our our imar day, the way we're made is made in imar day, the way we're made is made in imar day, the way we're made is made in the image of a god who not only has the image of a god who not only has the image of a god who not only has originality in his ideas, but we are originality in his ideas, but we are originality in his ideas, but we are made with the capacity and faculty like made with the capacity and faculty like made with the capacity and faculty like God to create brand new. So our ideas God to create brand new. So our ideas God to create brand new. So our ideas are not just um quirks of evolution or are not just um quirks of evolution or are not just um quirks of evolution or or our brains sinapses firing. They're

or our brains sinapses firing. They're or our brains sinapses firing. They're actually mirroring our father in heaven actually mirroring our father in heaven actually mirroring our father in heaven that we're creating in his image and that we're creating in his image and that we're creating in his image and we're created to create. So the gift we're created to create. So the gift we're created to create. So the gift that the human race has in the age of that the human race has in the age of that the human race has in the age of the algorithm is the ability to connect the algorithm is the ability to connect the algorithm is the ability to connect with that creator, the spark if you like with that creator, the spark if you like with that creator, the spark if you like of God's divine creativity in your life. of God's divine creativity in your life. of God's divine creativity in your life. And you bring that to the boardroom or And you bring that to the boardroom or And you bring that to the boardroom or you bring that to the code or you bring you bring that to the code or you bring you bring that to the code or you bring that to the discussion around how we that to the discussion around how we that to the discussion around how we shape and make the future of the world. shape and make the future of the world. shape and make the future of the world. That ability to think prophetically, the That ability to think prophetically, the That ability to think prophetically, the newness, the the functional newness of newness, the the functional newness of newness, the the functional newness of what it is to be alive as a Christian is what it is to be alive as a Christian is what it is to be alive as a Christian is dynamite. It's a secret source that we dynamite. It's a secret source that we dynamite. It's a secret source that we need. So, I think as the age of the need. So, I think as the age of the need. So, I think as the age of the algorithm dawns on us, the age of the algorithm dawns on us, the age of the algorithm dawns on us, the age of the church recovering their God-given church recovering their God-given church recovering their God-given creativity becomes more urgent. At the creativity becomes more urgent. At the creativity becomes more urgent. At the same time, pastors, if we're not same time, pastors, if we're not same time, pastors, if we're not thinking about how we ignite creativity, thinking about how we ignite creativity, thinking about how we ignite creativity, we need to get serious about this. We we need to get serious about this. We we need to get serious about this. We need to think about how do we turn our need to think about how do we turn our need to think about how do we turn our churches into incubators for the future. churches into incubators for the future. churches into incubators for the future. Christians create futures. the spirit of Christians create futures. the spirit of Christians create futures. the spirit of God working through people is going to God working through people is going to God working through people is going to help shape the future. So, this is the help shape the future. So, this is the help shape the future. So, this is the age not just of the AI and the art, but age not just of the AI and the art, but age not just of the AI and the art, but also the age of the artist and the also the age of the artist and the also the age of the artist and the artisan and the maker and the shaper. artisan and the maker and the shaper. artisan and the maker and the shaper. So, I I want to encourage us to to So, I I want to encourage us to to So, I I want to encourage us to to really start taking this stuff really start taking this stuff really start taking this stuff seriously. And I'm glad you're thinking seriously. And I'm glad you're thinking seriously. And I'm glad you're thinking about it because it's it is the crucial about it because it's it is the crucial about it because it's it is the crucial question of our age.

question of our age. question of our age. >> How do you I've got five questions. >> How do you I've got five questions. >> How do you I've got five questions. Let's start here. Let's start here. Let's start here. >> How how do you turn a church into an >> How how do you turn a church into an >> How how do you turn a church into an incubator for creativity? incubator for creativity? incubator for creativity? Right? Right? Right? I mean, this is the big question and I mean, this is the big question and I mean, this is the big question and this is kind of this is kind of this is kind of the good news is it's actually easy to the good news is it's actually easy to the good news is it's actually easy to do. I know it sounds flippant, do. I know it sounds flippant, do. I know it sounds flippant, but if as leaders we make room to see but if as leaders we make room to see but if as leaders we make room to see our churches as incubators for the our churches as incubators for the our churches as incubators for the future, then all things are possible. future, then all things are possible. future, then all things are possible. So, practically speaking, uh we we're So, practically speaking, uh we we're So, practically speaking, uh we we're pastoring a generation who are anized by pastoring a generation who are anized by pastoring a generation who are anized by their pixels. If you're a creative, the their pixels. If you're a creative, the their pixels. If you're a creative, the data is really bad, by the way. You data is really bad, by the way. You data is really bad, by the way. You know, three times trigger warning, the know, three times trigger warning, the know, three times trigger warning, the suicide rates among creative people, suicide rates among creative people, suicide rates among creative people, three times that among the general three times that among the general three times that among the general population. So broken, hard, you know, population. So broken, hard, you know, population. So broken, hard, you know, often on the edge of society, underpaid, often on the edge of society, underpaid, often on the edge of society, underpaid, addicted, it's tough, mental health addicted, it's tough, mental health addicted, it's tough, mental health challenges that that creative minority challenges that that creative minority challenges that that creative minority need love and care and nurture. What need love and care and nurture. What need love and care and nurture. What they don't need is a pastor to go, "Hey, they don't need is a pastor to go, "Hey, they don't need is a pastor to go, "Hey, you're a creative. What do you do? I you're a creative. What do you do? I you're a creative. What do you do? I play drums in a band." Oh, great. We play drums in a band." Oh, great. We play drums in a band." Oh, great. We have a slot on Sunday morning where you have a slot on Sunday morning where you have a slot on Sunday morning where you can play drums for us, right? What we we can play drums for us, right? What we we can play drums for us, right? What we we need to go and say, "How can we pray for need to go and say, "How can we pray for need to go and say, "How can we pray for you so that when you're playing drums on you so that when you're playing drums on you so that when you're playing drums on that stadium tour, you keep going and that stadium tour, you keep going and that stadium tour, you keep going and you don't burn out and make bad you don't burn out and make bad you don't burn out and make bad decisions?" Like, if we could pastor and decisions?" Like, if we could pastor and decisions?" Like, if we could pastor and love not just the creators for Sunday, love not just the creators for Sunday, love not just the creators for Sunday, but for Monday, it would change the but for Monday, it would change the but for Monday, it would change the game. So my biggest piece of advice

game. So my biggest piece of advice game. So my biggest piece of advice would be for pastors listening and I would be for pastors listening and I would be for pastors listening and I know many of you listening will be know many of you listening will be know many of you listening will be pastors. Start to see creativity not as pastors. Start to see creativity not as pastors. Start to see creativity not as a tool that you can harness for Sunday a tool that you can harness for Sunday a tool that you can harness for Sunday to make Sunday look better but as a to make Sunday look better but as a to make Sunday look better but as a thing you a thing you can empower to thing you a thing you can empower to thing you a thing you can empower to equip your church to make Monday more equip your church to make Monday more equip your church to make Monday more beautiful and glorious. When we start to beautiful and glorious. When we start to beautiful and glorious. When we start to do that we're going to find that we're do that we're going to find that we're do that we're going to find that we're going to nurture great ideiation great going to nurture great ideiation great going to nurture great ideiation great ideas. If the church becomes an ideas. If the church becomes an ideas. If the church becomes an incubator for God's divine renovation of incubator for God's divine renovation of incubator for God's divine renovation of the world which it should be then the the world which it should be then the the world which it should be then the world starts to look a little more world starts to look a little more world starts to look a little more hopeful. You know, why should the hopeful. You know, why should the hopeful. You know, why should the incubators in Silicon Valley or We work incubators in Silicon Valley or We work incubators in Silicon Valley or We work have all the good startup ideas? Why have all the good startup ideas? Why have all the good startup ideas? Why should when someone thinks of a good should when someone thinks of a good should when someone thinks of a good idea, it be incubated by VC funds or the idea, it be incubated by VC funds or the idea, it be incubated by VC funds or the workplace? Shouldn't the church be the workplace? Shouldn't the church be the workplace? Shouldn't the church be the birthplace of the new? That's what the birthplace of the new? That's what the birthplace of the new? That's what the spirit of God wants to do. So, the spirit of God wants to do. So, the spirit of God wants to do. So, the Sistine Chapel when they took a risk on Sistine Chapel when they took a risk on Sistine Chapel when they took a risk on a young unknown, relatively unknown a young unknown, relatively unknown a young unknown, relatively unknown artist, Michelangelo, Michelangelo's artist, Michelangelo, Michelangelo's artist, Michelangelo, Michelangelo's David is a great example. No one wanted David is a great example. No one wanted David is a great example. No one wanted to touch that lumber marble marble. to touch that lumber marble marble. to touch that lumber marble marble. David comes along. Michelangelo comes David comes along. Michelangelo comes David comes along. Michelangelo comes along, says, "I see a David in the along, says, "I see a David in the along, says, "I see a David in the marble." And chips away at it. And one marble." And chips away at it. And one marble." And chips away at it. And one of the great pieces of art is born. The of the great pieces of art is born. The of the great pieces of art is born. The church has always historically taken church has always historically taken church has always historically taken risks on creatives, not on our terms, risks on creatives, not on our terms, risks on creatives, not on our terms, but to say, "Look, we want you to do but to say, "Look, we want you to do but to say, "Look, we want you to do what God's calling you to do, and we're what God's calling you to do, and we're what God's calling you to do, and we're going to love you and support you and going to love you and support you and going to love you and support you and challenge you." So, practically, as challenge you." So, practically, as challenge you." So, practically, as leaders, the good news is we can learn leaders, the good news is we can learn leaders, the good news is we can learn how to do this. I talk a lot about this how to do this. I talk a lot about this how to do this. I talk a lot about this in Spark. I kind of we go through a in Spark. I kind of we go through a in Spark. I kind of we go through a process where here's some things you can process where here's some things you can process where here's some things you can do as a group. You can get together and do as a group. You can get together and do as a group. You can get together and you can start to incubate. How do you you can start to incubate. How do you you can start to incubate. How do you unlock creativity in your local church?

unlock creativity in your local church? unlock creativity in your local church? And the good news is not complicated. And the good news is not complicated. And the good news is not complicated. It's actually really easy to do if you It's actually really easy to do if you It's actually really easy to do if you do the right things a long way. There's do the right things a long way. There's do the right things a long way. There's a process. How do we ignite the a process. How do we ignite the a process. How do we ignite the imagination? How do we start to nurture imagination? How do we start to nurture imagination? How do we start to nurture inspiration? How do we start to innovate inspiration? How do we start to innovate inspiration? How do we start to innovate and take risks? And then, by the way, we and take risks? And then, by the way, we and take risks? And then, by the way, we got to talk about failure. That's a got to talk about failure. That's a got to talk about failure. That's a whole another edition of the podcast. whole another edition of the podcast. whole another edition of the podcast. How do we learn from failure? The best How do we learn from failure? The best How do we learn from failure? The best teacher is not success. Success makes teacher is not success. Success makes teacher is not success. Success makes you lazy. How do we feedback on failure? you lazy. How do we feedback on failure? you lazy. How do we feedback on failure? And then how do we empower for impact? And then how do we empower for impact? And then how do we empower for impact? Those steps that we start to do actually Those steps that we start to do actually Those steps that we start to do actually will start to create a community in the will start to create a community in the will start to create a community in the church that is transformative. And again church that is transformative. And again church that is transformative. And again going back to the upper room on the day going back to the upper room on the day going back to the upper room on the day of Pentecost, when the spirit of God of Pentecost, when the spirit of God of Pentecost, when the spirit of God gets involved in our creativity, gets involved in our creativity, gets involved in our creativity, the most powerful force in the universe the most powerful force in the universe the most powerful force in the universe is unlocked, which is human beings full is unlocked, which is human beings full is unlocked, which is human beings full of the creator spirit. And the world has of the creator spirit. And the world has of the creator spirit. And the world has always been shaped and changed by those. always been shaped and changed by those. always been shaped and changed by those. And I think that's what creatives need. And I think that's what creatives need. And I think that's what creatives need. They need some wind under their wings. They need some wind under their wings. They need some wind under their wings. They need some encouragement. They need They need some encouragement. They need They need some encouragement. They need not permission but fuel not permission but fuel not permission but fuel >> for what they're doing. I I'd love to >> for what they're doing. I I'd love to >> for what they're doing. I I'd love to know just a little bit even if we can know just a little bit even if we can know just a little bit even if we can scratch on it for a few minutes because scratch on it for a few minutes because scratch on it for a few minutes because I do have a few other questions I want I do have a few other questions I want I do have a few other questions I want to get to. Um learning from failure.

to get to. Um learning from failure. to get to. Um learning from failure. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> So there's two challenges. One I can see >> So there's two challenges. One I can see >> So there's two challenges. One I can see pastors and you nailed it naturally pastors and you nailed it naturally pastors and you nailed it naturally saying, "Oh, good. You drum here. We got saying, "Oh, good. You drum here. We got saying, "Oh, good. You drum here. We got a slot." Right? Oh, you're an artist. a slot." Right? Oh, you're an artist. a slot." Right? Oh, you're an artist. Can you paint something on Sunday Can you paint something on Sunday Can you paint something on Sunday morning to make my sermon better? rather morning to make my sermon better? rather morning to make my sermon better? rather than I'm going to I'm going to do what I than I'm going to I'm going to do what I than I'm going to I'm going to do what I can. We're going to do what we can as a can. We're going to do what we can as a can. We're going to do what we can as a a community to release you into the a community to release you into the a community to release you into the world. The glory of God is humanity world. The glory of God is humanity world. The glory of God is humanity fully alive, right? That sort of idea. fully alive, right? That sort of idea. fully alive, right? That sort of idea. But then it's not always going to work But then it's not always going to work But then it's not always going to work out and sometimes we have pretty low out and sometimes we have pretty low out and sometimes we have pretty low tolerance for failure in the church. tolerance for failure in the church. tolerance for failure in the church. It's like everything has to work all the It's like everything has to work all the It's like everything has to work all the time. time. time. >> What do you learn from failure? How have >> What do you learn from failure? How have >> What do you learn from failure? How have you learned from it? you learned from it? you learned from it? >> I mean, let's start with the assumption >> I mean, let's start with the assumption >> I mean, let's start with the assumption if I can that we're all perfectionists, if I can that we're all perfectionists, if I can that we're all perfectionists, right? Most of your listeners. true right? Most of your listeners. true right? Most of your listeners. true we'll be like ah we don't like looking we'll be like ah we don't like looking we'll be like ah we don't like looking stupid we don't like making mistakes and stupid we don't like making mistakes and stupid we don't like making mistakes and also the longer you go and the more kind also the longer you go and the more kind also the longer you go and the more kind of experience you get in leadership and of experience you get in leadership and of experience you get in leadership and the more I guess um responsibility you the more I guess um responsibility you the more I guess um responsibility you take on the more you're like averse to take on the more you're like averse to take on the more you're like averse to taking risks and failing but uh the taking risks and failing but uh the taking risks and failing but uh the truth is risktaking is the place where truth is risktaking is the place where truth is risktaking is the place where most new things get birthed so no most new things get birthed so no most new things get birthed so no risk-taking no newness but no risk-taking no newness but no risk-taking no newness but no risk-taking no you know failure as well risk-taking no you know failure as well risk-taking no you know failure as well So again, I talk about this in Spark and So again, I talk about this in Spark and So again, I talk about this in Spark and it's slightly embarrassing. When I wrote it's slightly embarrassing. When I wrote it's slightly embarrassing. When I wrote the book, I was trying to get like the book, I was trying to get like the book, I was trying to get like here's here's my love letter to creative here's here's my love letter to creative here's here's my love letter to creative and my love letter to pastors. How are and my love letter to pastors. How are and my love letter to pastors. How are you going to ignite creativity? And I you going to ignite creativity? And I you going to ignite creativity? And I have a whole section on failure. And the have a whole section on failure. And the have a whole section on failure. And the editor of the book, really lovely guy editor of the book, really lovely guy editor of the book, really lovely guy called Ryan was like the chapter on called Ryan was like the chapter on called Ryan was like the chapter on failure. We could do a whole book on failure. We could do a whole book on failure. We could do a whole book on failure. I was like, "Thanks, man. I failure. I was like, "Thanks, man. I failure. I was like, "Thanks, man. I told some really vulnerable stories

told some really vulnerable stories told some really vulnerable stories about mistakes I've made and things that about mistakes I've made and things that about mistakes I've made and things that have gone horribly wrong." But actually, have gone horribly wrong." But actually, have gone horribly wrong." But actually, the point was that we learn more from the point was that we learn more from the point was that we learn more from our failures. And actually, I love this our failures. And actually, I love this our failures. And actually, I love this and you do this brilliantly with your and you do this brilliantly with your and you do this brilliantly with your your guests on the podcast. When you get your guests on the podcast. When you get your guests on the podcast. When you get inside someone's head and their failures inside someone's head and their failures inside someone's head and their failures and you learn from them, it's like, "Oh, and you learn from them, it's like, "Oh, and you learn from them, it's like, "Oh, there's two things happen. One, you go, there's two things happen. One, you go, there's two things happen. One, you go, "Oh, I do that, too. I made that "Oh, I do that, too. I made that "Oh, I do that, too. I made that mistake." Or secondly, you're like, mistake." Or secondly, you're like, mistake." Or secondly, you're like, >> "Oh, if they get it wrong, then >> "Oh, if they get it wrong, then >> "Oh, if they get it wrong, then okay, maybe I'm going to get things okay, maybe I'm going to get things okay, maybe I'm going to get things wrong. It's going to be okay." So, I'll wrong. It's going to be okay." So, I'll wrong. It's going to be okay." So, I'll give you a couple of examples. Uh, the give you a couple of examples. Uh, the give you a couple of examples. Uh, the first time we launched our homeless first time we launched our homeless first time we launched our homeless shelter, shelter, shelter, this is I can't even believe I'm telling this is I can't even believe I'm telling this is I can't even believe I'm telling you the story, and I know I'll get you the story, and I know I'll get you the story, and I know I'll get complaints. I I cooked with another guy. complaints. I I cooked with another guy. complaints. I I cooked with another guy. Neither of us are great cooks. And we Neither of us are great cooks. And we Neither of us are great cooks. And we panic panic defrosted flash oven fried panic panic defrosted flash oven fried panic panic defrosted flash oven fried some frozen turkey that was probably some frozen turkey that was probably some frozen turkey that was probably pretty cheap when we bought it and it pretty cheap when we bought it and it pretty cheap when we bought it and it would be in the freezer for a long time. would be in the freezer for a long time. would be in the freezer for a long time. So we panic cooked frozen turkey. Turns So we panic cooked frozen turkey. Turns So we panic cooked frozen turkey. Turns out panic cooking frozen turkey is never out panic cooking frozen turkey is never out panic cooking frozen turkey is never a good idea. We caused a serious a good idea. We caused a serious a good idea. We caused a serious outbreak of probably salmonella maybe outbreak of probably salmonella maybe outbreak of probably salmonella maybe among the vulnerable in our community.

among the vulnerable in our community. among the vulnerable in our community. like a serious like there were people like a serious like there were people like a serious like there were people who were really really ill. Homeless who were really really ill. Homeless who were really really ill. Homeless guys who were like pretty vulnerable and guys who were like pretty vulnerable and guys who were like pretty vulnerable and everybody our whole staff team was ill everybody our whole staff team was ill everybody our whole staff team was ill like it was bad and I was like I'm never like it was bad and I was like I'm never like it was bad and I was like I'm never cooking again. We're like we're just cooking again. We're like we're just cooking again. We're like we're just going to have a homeless lunch where going to have a homeless lunch where going to have a homeless lunch where there's no lunch. We're just going to there's no lunch. We're just going to there's no lunch. We're just going to like never do that again. And it was a like never do that again. And it was a like never do that again. And it was a total failure. I thought oh my goodness total failure. I thought oh my goodness total failure. I thought oh my goodness that is a disaster. What came out of that is a disaster. What came out of that is a disaster. What came out of that is we said when we can't I can't that is we said when we can't I can't that is we said when we can't I can't cook. I I just can't do that for these cook. I I just can't do that for these cook. I I just can't do that for these guys. I just got to find someone who guys. I just got to find someone who guys. I just got to find someone who knows what to do. So about a week later knows what to do. So about a week later knows what to do. So about a week later again I started praying a miracle again I started praying a miracle again I started praying a miracle happens a local restaurant get in touch happens a local restaurant get in touch happens a local restaurant get in touch and they are an amazing community and they are an amazing community and they are an amazing community amazing restaurant quite famous um local amazing restaurant quite famous um local amazing restaurant quite famous um local restaurant sort of chef's table if you restaurant sort of chef's table if you restaurant sort of chef's table if you know Netflix kind of that level and they know Netflix kind of that level and they know Netflix kind of that level and they said that we heard about you guys and said that we heard about you guys and said that we heard about you guys and heard about what you're doing we want to heard about what you're doing we want to heard about what you're doing we want to cook for your homeless couple of weeks cook for your homeless couple of weeks cook for your homeless couple of weeks later with we the homeless guys are later with we the homeless guys are later with we the homeless guys are eating like the best stew from this eating like the best stew from this eating like the best stew from this restaurant amazing food that you'd pay restaurant amazing food that you'd pay restaurant amazing food that you'd pay like 50 bucks for a main course if like 50 bucks for a main course if like 50 bucks for a main course if you're getting at the restaurant and it you're getting at the restaurant and it you're getting at the restaurant and it had gone gone from panic frozen turkey had gone gone from panic frozen turkey had gone gone from panic frozen turkey and like really bad food poisoning to and like really bad food poisoning to and like really bad food poisoning to really amazing food relatively quickly.

really amazing food relatively quickly. really amazing food relatively quickly. Had we not had the failure, we would Had we not had the failure, we would Had we not had the failure, we would never have seen that breakthrough never have seen that breakthrough never have seen that breakthrough happen. happen. happen. >> So another time the building I'm sitting >> So another time the building I'm sitting >> So another time the building I'm sitting speaking to you in um is the church speaking to you in um is the church speaking to you in um is the church saint where we renovated it. Just before saint where we renovated it. Just before saint where we renovated it. Just before the renovation we we hosted uh one of the renovation we we hosted uh one of the renovation we we hosted uh one of the best known artists in the world, the best known artists in the world, the best known artists in the world, Robbie Williams, who's a probably in the Robbie Williams, who's a probably in the Robbie Williams, who's a probably in the UK is probably the bestselling solo UK is probably the bestselling solo UK is probably the bestselling solo artist of of all history. out sold most artist of of all history. out sold most artist of of all history. out sold most most pop stars and he did a show with a most pop stars and he did a show with a most pop stars and he did a show with a big tech company, big streaming company big tech company, big streaming company big tech company, big streaming company and it was the big streaming company's and it was the big streaming company's and it was the big streaming company's launch of their online streaming launch of their online streaming launch of their online streaming platform. So really really big budget. platform. So really really big budget. platform. So really really big budget. They'd spent I think a million pounds on They'd spent I think a million pounds on They'd spent I think a million pounds on the tech for the show alone and about 4 the tech for the show alone and about 4 the tech for the show alone and about 4 days out from the show I rather naively days out from the show I rather naively days out from the show I rather naively had said, "Look, we should just do a had said, "Look, we should just do a had said, "Look, we should just do a health and safety check order." I got a health and safety check order." I got a health and safety check order." I got a fire guy in and the fire guy came to see fire guy in and the fire guy came to see fire guy in and the fire guy came to see me kind of ash and whiteface saying, me kind of ash and whiteface saying, me kind of ash and whiteface saying, "I'm really sorry. I know we've sold "I'm really sorry. I know we've sold "I'm really sorry. I know we've sold like 2,000 tickets for the show, but bad like 2,000 tickets for the show, but bad like 2,000 tickets for the show, but bad news, you are only allowed 250 people on news, you are only allowed 250 people on news, you are only allowed 250 people on the building because the fire stuff is the building because the fire stuff is the building because the fire stuff is not safe. And I was like, "Oh." So, I not safe. And I was like, "Oh." So, I not safe. And I was like, "Oh." So, I went to like the guys at the tech the went to like the guys at the tech the went to like the guys at the tech the big tech broadcast who I'm not going to big tech broadcast who I'm not going to big tech broadcast who I'm not going to mention by name, but I I was like, "I mention by name, but I I was like, "I mention by name, but I I was like, "I think I've got a problem here. I've got think I've got a problem here. I've got think I've got a problem here. I've got this show coming up in a few days time, this show coming up in a few days time, this show coming up in a few days time, and you know how we've sold 2,000 and you know how we've sold 2,000 and you know how we've sold 2,000 tickets and you've spent a million tickets and you've spent a million tickets and you've spent a million pounds on the tech." And the email comes pounds on the tech." And the email comes pounds on the tech." And the email comes to me from, you know, someone on my team to me from, you know, someone on my team to me from, you know, someone on my team forwarded on saying, I think, you know, forwarded on saying, I think, you know, forwarded on saying, I think, you know, we are probably liable now for the we are probably liable now for the we are probably liable now for the million pound bill because we'd have to million pound bill because we'd have to million pound bill because we'd have to cancel the show. So I'd gone from like, cancel the show. So I'd gone from like, cancel the show. So I'd gone from like, you know, naively trying to work you know, naively trying to work you know, naively trying to work something out. It's a mill that's a something out. It's a mill that's a something out. It's a mill that's a million pound mistake and it was just million pound mistake and it was just million pound mistake and it was just awful. I went home, I didn't sleep that

awful. I went home, I didn't sleep that awful. I went home, I didn't sleep that night. Thankfully, we found a way to night. Thankfully, we found a way to night. Thankfully, we found a way to make it work and we didn't end up on the make it work and we didn't end up on the make it work and we didn't end up on the hook for a million pounds. But that that hook for a million pounds. But that that hook for a million pounds. But that that few days where I literally was on the few days where I literally was on the few days where I literally was on the verge of like breakdown was a verge of like breakdown was a verge of like breakdown was a formational lesson. That failure helped formational lesson. That failure helped formational lesson. That failure helped us redesign the building and the us redesign the building and the us redesign the building and the building you see today is able to hold building you see today is able to hold building you see today is able to hold people safely because of that people safely because of that people safely because of that experience. Had I not had that battle experience. Had I not had that battle experience. Had I not had that battle and that failure, we would never have and that failure, we would never have and that failure, we would never have thought through the design we have thought through the design we have thought through the design we have today. So yeah, failures are your today. So yeah, failures are your today. So yeah, failures are your friend. You've got to learn to embrace friend. You've got to learn to embrace friend. You've got to learn to embrace failure and you've got to learn to learn failure and you've got to learn to learn failure and you've got to learn to learn from it. Success makes you lazy. Failure from it. Success makes you lazy. Failure from it. Success makes you lazy. Failure is the best teacher because you can't is the best teacher because you can't is the best teacher because you can't learn from your successes. They make you learn from your successes. They make you learn from your successes. They make you lazy. They're like, "Wow, great. Another lazy. They're like, "Wow, great. Another lazy. They're like, "Wow, great. Another another gong, another re award." Whereas another gong, another re award." Whereas another gong, another re award." Whereas when you fail, you get better. You go, when you fail, you get better. You go, when you fail, you get better. You go, "Well, I'm going to learn from that. I'm "Well, I'm going to learn from that. I'm "Well, I'm going to learn from that. I'm going to do things differently." So, going to do things differently." So, going to do things differently." So, yeah, failure not to be something we yeah, failure not to be something we yeah, failure not to be something we need to be afraid of. And I think in a need to be afraid of. And I think in a need to be afraid of. And I think in a church culture as well, if we could, church culture as well, if we could, church culture as well, if we could, >> you know, obviously we want to make sure >> you know, obviously we want to make sure >> you know, obviously we want to make sure people are safe and people, you know, people are safe and people, you know, people are safe and people, you know, risk, not the wrong kind of risk, but I risk, not the wrong kind of risk, but I risk, not the wrong kind of risk, but I think a culture of courage is really think a culture of courage is really think a culture of courage is really needed and celebrating when we tried needed and celebrating when we tried needed and celebrating when we tried something and it didn't work. You know, something and it didn't work. You know, something and it didn't work. You know, why don't we why don't we applaud and why don't we why don't we applaud and why don't we why don't we applaud and give like points and props to people give like points and props to people give like points and props to people when they tried something really noble, when they tried something really noble, when they tried something really noble, it didn't work out, it went wrong, but it didn't work out, it went wrong, but it didn't work out, it went wrong, but good for you for giving it a go. And good for you for giving it a go. And good for you for giving it a go. And what do we learn from that?

what do we learn from that? what do we learn from that? >> No, that's really good. You've got a >> No, that's really good. You've got a >> No, that's really good. You've got a quote in the book. I think it's Miles quote in the book. I think it's Miles quote in the book. I think it's Miles Davis. Don't fear mistakes, there are Davis. Don't fear mistakes, there are Davis. Don't fear mistakes, there are none. none. none. >> That's such a great quote. Okay, >> That's such a great quote. Okay, >> That's such a great quote. Okay, lightning round a little bit. I want to lightning round a little bit. I want to lightning round a little bit. I want to talk about AI and how you use it. One of talk about AI and how you use it. One of talk about AI and how you use it. One of my fears in my own life, but also in the my fears in my own life, but also in the my fears in my own life, but also in the lives of leaders, is brain rot. lives of leaders, is brain rot. lives of leaders, is brain rot. >> That, you know, at first when chat GPT >> That, you know, at first when chat GPT >> That, you know, at first when chat GPT came out in 2022, it was like, haha, came out in 2022, it was like, haha, came out in 2022, it was like, haha, write a sermon. What a joke. It's pretty write a sermon. What a joke. It's pretty write a sermon. What a joke. It's pretty good now. And, you know, I I made myself good now. And, you know, I I made myself good now. And, you know, I I made myself do the heavy lifting on the first few do the heavy lifting on the first few do the heavy lifting on the first few drafts of my book and draft it from drafts of my book and draft it from drafts of my book and draft it from scratch and all that stuff because I I scratch and all that stuff because I I scratch and all that stuff because I I find AI is amazing and it can make you find AI is amazing and it can make you find AI is amazing and it can make you incredibly lazy. I'm curious what are incredibly lazy. I'm curious what are incredibly lazy. I'm curious what are your fears, concerns, or maybe you don't your fears, concerns, or maybe you don't your fears, concerns, or maybe you don't have any around brain rot and our yeah have any around brain rot and our yeah have any around brain rot and our yeah losing the cognitive capacity to think losing the cognitive capacity to think losing the cognitive capacity to think because we delegate our brains away to because we delegate our brains away to because we delegate our brains away to AI and then how are you using it not AI and then how are you using it not AI and then how are you using it not using it in your own life and ministry? using it in your own life and ministry? using it in your own life and ministry? >> Great question and I think it is like >> Great question and I think it is like >> Great question and I think it is like all technology can make us lazy or it all technology can make us lazy or it all technology can make us lazy or it can empower us. Um, you know, I bet can empower us. Um, you know, I bet can empower us. Um, you know, I bet there were monks in the scriptorum when there were monks in the scriptorum when there were monks in the scriptorum when the printing press came along and the printing press came along and the printing press came along and saying, you know, my hand is now saying, you know, my hand is now saying, you know, my hand is now redundant. What do I do with, you know, redundant. What do I do with, you know, redundant. What do I do with, you know, my my calligraphy and my fine art that my my calligraphy and my fine art that my my calligraphy and my fine art that I've been perfecting my whole life or my I've been perfecting my whole life or my I've been perfecting my whole life or my my beautiful ornate gilding. Um, so my beautiful ornate gilding. Um, so my beautiful ornate gilding. Um, so yeah, any technological breakthrough has yeah, any technological breakthrough has yeah, any technological breakthrough has has casualties and it has um has casualties and it has um has casualties and it has um breakthroughs and and and heroes and breakthroughs and and and heroes and breakthroughs and and and heroes and things. I think for for creativity, if

things. I think for for creativity, if things. I think for for creativity, if we get it right in the way you use AI in we get it right in the way you use AI in we get it right in the way you use AI in your life, it can really empower your your life, it can really empower your your life, it can really empower your time to be able to to spend more time time to be able to to spend more time time to be able to to spend more time being bored and to create and think and being bored and to create and think and being bored and to create and think and create the space. So things like um uh create the space. So things like um uh create the space. So things like um uh research and and you know it doesn't research and and you know it doesn't research and and you know it doesn't remove your ability to be fascinated and remove your ability to be fascinated and remove your ability to be fascinated and AI is pretty good at research now. It's AI is pretty good at research now. It's AI is pretty good at research now. It's probably PhD level, you know, if you use probably PhD level, you know, if you use probably PhD level, you know, if you use an AI agent. an AI agent. an AI agent. >> Yeah, hallucinations have gone way down. >> Yeah, hallucinations have gone way down. >> Yeah, hallucinations have gone way down. >> Hallucinations go way down. also like um >> Hallucinations go way down. also like um >> Hallucinations go way down. also like um as a creative tool um and it'll get as a creative tool um and it'll get as a creative tool um and it'll get better and better as by the time your better and better as by the time your better and better as by the time your book comes out. I mean we'll all be like book comes out. I mean we'll all be like book comes out. I mean we'll all be like there'll be a hologram version of Carrie there'll be a hologram version of Carrie there'll be a hologram version of Carrie doing a podcast while you're lying in doing a podcast while you're lying in doing a podcast while you're lying in the sun barbecue. the sun barbecue. the sun barbecue. >> We we have debated that and decided >> We we have debated that and decided >> We we have debated that and decided against it for now, against it for now, against it for now, >> right? So, so I think use as a tool to >> right? So, so I think use as a tool to >> right? So, so I think use as a tool to enable you to do the important things enable you to do the important things enable you to do the important things and free you up to do the important and free you up to do the important and free you up to do the important things. It's absolutely wonderful. If things. It's absolutely wonderful. If things. It's absolutely wonderful. If you try and use it as a tool to create you try and use it as a tool to create you try and use it as a tool to create some intellectual babel like a tower some intellectual babel like a tower some intellectual babel like a tower where you don't have to do the hard work where you don't have to do the hard work where you don't have to do the hard work of wonder and beauty and truth and of wonder and beauty and truth and of wonder and beauty and truth and goodness um not good I think in terms of goodness um not good I think in terms of goodness um not good I think in terms of efficiencies and research and accuracy efficiencies and research and accuracy efficiencies and research and accuracy and even like I'm dyslexic so I would and even like I'm dyslexic so I would and even like I'm dyslexic so I would use AI to help me um you arrange words I use AI to help me um you arrange words I use AI to help me um you arrange words I can dictate easier than I can so I I'll can dictate easier than I can so I I'll can dictate easier than I can so I I'll often if I'm writing an email I'll use a often if I'm writing an email I'll use a often if I'm writing an email I'll use a I'll press dictate because it's actually I'll press dictate because it's actually I'll press dictate because it's actually able to do that but it can't replace my able to do that but it can't replace my able to do that but it can't replace my heart. It can't replace emotion. It heart. It can't replace emotion. It heart. It can't replace emotion. It can't replace prayer. It can't replace can't replace prayer. It can't replace can't replace prayer. It can't replace the spiritual nexus of the of the soul the spiritual nexus of the of the soul the spiritual nexus of the of the soul which is we're made in the image of a which is we're made in the image of a which is we're made in the image of a god who gives us technology so that we god who gives us technology so that we god who gives us technology so that we might be free to create. So yeah, I

might be free to create. So yeah, I might be free to create. So yeah, I think massive massive benefits, massive think massive massive benefits, massive think massive massive benefits, massive dangers. All technology is the same. Uh dangers. All technology is the same. Uh dangers. All technology is the same. Uh and I think it's important that we as and I think it's important that we as and I think it's important that we as leaders use it to make space leaders use it to make space leaders use it to make space particularly to create in a way we don't particularly to create in a way we don't particularly to create in a way we don't want to become more efficient. What we want to become more efficient. What we want to become more efficient. What we want to become is more receptive to the want to become is more receptive to the want to become is more receptive to the imagination of the Holy Spirit. imagination of the Holy Spirit. imagination of the Holy Spirit. >> Right? And I think that's probably in my >> Right? And I think that's probably in my >> Right? And I think that's probably in my view the best use. Get rid of the lower view the best use. Get rid of the lower view the best use. Get rid of the lower things that are clogging up your things that are clogging up your things that are clogging up your schedule schedule schedule >> to free up more imaginative cognitive >> to free up more imaginative cognitive >> to free up more imaginative cognitive capacity to do the heavy lifting. capacity to do the heavy lifting. capacity to do the heavy lifting. >> Yeah. Love that. Yeah, that's a >> Yeah. Love that. Yeah, that's a >> Yeah. Love that. Yeah, that's a beautifully way much more succinctly put beautifully way much more succinctly put beautifully way much more succinctly put than me. than me. than me. >> No, no, no, no. You did you did a great >> No, no, no, no. You did you did a great >> No, no, no, no. You did you did a great job. You know, the book is called Spark. job. You know, the book is called Spark. job. You know, the book is called Spark. It's out now and available everywhere. It's out now and available everywhere. It's out now and available everywhere. Ignite your God-given creativity. I Ignite your God-given creativity. I Ignite your God-given creativity. I think we need a lot more of that in the think we need a lot more of that in the think we need a lot more of that in the church and I want to thank you for church and I want to thank you for church and I want to thank you for contributing. I had the privilege of contributing. I had the privilege of contributing. I had the privilege of reading an early copy endorsing it along reading an early copy endorsing it along reading an early copy endorsing it along with others. with others. with others. Any final word? Anything we didn't touch Any final word? Anything we didn't touch Any final word? Anything we didn't touch on that you want to leave one final on that you want to leave one final on that you want to leave one final encouragement for leaders with?

encouragement for leaders with? encouragement for leaders with? Gosh, I Gosh, I Gosh, I am really expectant for this next am really expectant for this next am really expectant for this next generation. I'm full of hope. I think generation. I'm full of hope. I think generation. I'm full of hope. I think when God really begins to move, one of when God really begins to move, one of when God really begins to move, one of the fruits of that is wonderful the fruits of that is wonderful the fruits of that is wonderful creativity. You know, it's it's true creativity. You know, it's it's true creativity. You know, it's it's true that there is a a young generation who that there is a a young generation who that there is a a young generation who are spiritually hungry for an encounter are spiritually hungry for an encounter are spiritually hungry for an encounter with God. So, I would just say for with God. So, I would just say for with God. So, I would just say for everyone listening, fix your eyes on everyone listening, fix your eyes on everyone listening, fix your eyes on Jesus. Be overwhelmed with wonder again. Jesus. Be overwhelmed with wonder again. Jesus. Be overwhelmed with wonder again. allow a renaissance to flow from your allow a renaissance to flow from your allow a renaissance to flow from your soul and go create beautiful things, soul and go create beautiful things, soul and go create beautiful things, make great solutions, solve problems, be make great solutions, solve problems, be make great solutions, solve problems, be brave, and that courageous um courageous brave, and that courageous um courageous brave, and that courageous um courageous spiritual energy that comes from the spiritual energy that comes from the spiritual energy that comes from the spirit of God. I I'll give you just one spirit of God. I I'll give you just one spirit of God. I I'll give you just one final thing if I may. Recent final thing if I may. Recent final thing if I may. Recent neuroscience breakthrough looked at the neuroscience breakthrough looked at the neuroscience breakthrough looked at the way the brain works and this is way the brain works and this is way the brain works and this is relevant. It looked at how the brain relevant. It looked at how the brain relevant. It looked at how the brain fires up when we pray, spiritual fires up when we pray, spiritual fires up when we pray, spiritual engagement and it also looked at all engagement and it also looked at all engagement and it also looked at all sorts of activities like um running and sorts of activities like um running and sorts of activities like um running and sleeping and fighting and all any kind sleeping and fighting and all any kind sleeping and fighting and all any kind you can map all the stuff on the brain.

you can map all the stuff on the brain. you can map all the stuff on the brain. So prayer lights up one set of neural So prayer lights up one set of neural So prayer lights up one set of neural networks in the front in a default mode networks in the front in a default mode networks in the front in a default mode network of the brain front prefrontal network of the brain front prefrontal network of the brain front prefrontal cortex. Prayer you can map it. It has a cortex. Prayer you can map it. It has a cortex. Prayer you can map it. It has a pattern in the brain when you are pattern in the brain when you are pattern in the brain when you are spiritually engaging with God. Then also spiritually engaging with God. Then also spiritually engaging with God. Then also when you are creating and dreaming and when you are creating and dreaming and when you are creating and dreaming and the new and the the imagination the new and the the imagination the new and the the imagination really firing up it also lights up a really firing up it also lights up a really firing up it also lights up a whole section of of the brain. What's whole section of of the brain. What's whole section of of the brain. What's fascinating uniquely those two when you fascinating uniquely those two when you fascinating uniquely those two when you overlay them they're exactly the same overlay them they're exactly the same overlay them they're exactly the same neural network. neural network. neural network. >> No way. >> No way. >> No way. >> So prayer is creativity and creativity >> So prayer is creativity and creativity >> So prayer is creativity and creativity is prayer. When you create you're doing is prayer. When you create you're doing is prayer. When you create you're doing something spiritual. When you are deep something spiritual. When you are deep something spiritual. When you are deep in the Holy Spirit you're at your most in the Holy Spirit you're at your most in the Holy Spirit you're at your most creative. So my final encouragement creative. So my final encouragement creative. So my final encouragement would be to spend more time with Jesus. would be to spend more time with Jesus. would be to spend more time with Jesus. Let your your default mode network fire Let your your default mode network fire Let your your default mode network fire up. Let the creativity of God spark your up. Let the creativity of God spark your up. Let the creativity of God spark your imagination. And then we're going to imagination. And then we're going to imagination. And then we're going to have a whale of a time in the generation have a whale of a time in the generation have a whale of a time in the generation to come. to come. to come. Al can't thank you enough. Hey, if Al can't thank you enough. Hey, if Al can't thank you enough. Hey, if there's a website or even a social media there's a website or even a social media there's a website or even a social media account that you want to direct people account that you want to direct people account that you want to direct people to who want to learn more, and obviously to who want to learn more, and obviously to who want to learn more, and obviously we'll have everything in the show notes, we'll have everything in the show notes, we'll have everything in the show notes, too. Where can they most easily find you too. Where can they most easily find you too. Where can they most easily find you online?

online? online? >> So I guess Instagram or algordon.co co >> So I guess Instagram or algordon.co co >> So I guess Instagram or algordon.co co is where you can get directed to get a is where you can get directed to get a is where you can get directed to get a hold of a copy of Spark and also small hold of a copy of Spark and also small hold of a copy of Spark and also small group resources I think or spark circles group resources I think or spark circles group resources I think or spark circles that are designed for groups to start to that are designed for groups to start to that are designed for groups to start to engage with this material and it help engage with this material and it help engage with this material and it help ignite creativity in your friendship ignite creativity in your friendship ignite creativity in your friendship group and in your circle at church. So group and in your circle at church. So group and in your circle at church. So yeah, and then also yeah, and then also yeah, and then also renaissancemovement.org or where we do renaissancemovement.org or where we do renaissancemovement.org or where we do training labs all around the world now. training labs all around the world now. training labs all around the world now. Uh helping bring creatives together and Uh helping bring creatives together and Uh helping bring creatives together and inspire them and hopefully just do some inspire them and hopefully just do some inspire them and hopefully just do some slightly crazy things like I want to get slightly crazy things like I want to get slightly crazy things like I want to get you my dream one day is to do a a you my dream one day is to do a a you my dream one day is to do a a barbecuing workshop with the great Karen barbecuing workshop with the great Karen barbecuing workshop with the great Karen Hoff like Kenuhoff. Hoff like Kenuhoff. Hoff like Kenuhoff. >> There we go. I was just going to say >> There we go. I was just going to say >> There we go. I was just going to say next next January I think I'm in the UK next next January I think I'm in the UK next next January I think I'm in the UK or in May. or in May. or in May. >> Uh let's just let's just hang out and >> Uh let's just let's just hang out and >> Uh let's just let's just hang out and grill some steak. grill some steak. grill some steak. >> Let's hang out. Cook some meat on the >> Let's hang out. Cook some meat on the >> Let's hang out. Cook some meat on the barbecue barbecue barbecue >> on the big green. Come on. how to get >> on the big green. Come on. how to get >> on the big green. Come on. how to get the perfect sear and where God is in the perfect sear and where God is in the perfect sear and where God is in that process. I mean, that process. I mean, that process. I mean, >> oh yeah, talk about >> oh yeah, talk about >> oh yeah, talk about >> by the barbecue, right? Plenty of >> by the barbecue, right? Plenty of >> by the barbecue, right? Plenty of barbecues with Jesus by them. barbecues with Jesus by them. barbecues with Jesus by them. >> I burnt some chicken two years ago. It's >> I burnt some chicken two years ago. It's >> I burnt some chicken two years ago. It's just like I had to post it on Instagram. just like I had to post it on Instagram. just like I had to post it on Instagram. It was so bad. We went for a walk and It was so bad. We went for a walk and It was so bad. We went for a walk and totally destroyed it. But totally destroyed it. But totally destroyed it. But >> it was traumatic.

>> it was traumatic. >> it was traumatic. >> Anyway, but we live to fight another >> Anyway, but we live to fight another >> Anyway, but we live to fight another battle and live to see another day. So, battle and live to see another day. So, battle and live to see another day. So, >> it's been such fun. Thank you. I love >> it's been such fun. Thank you. I love >> it's been such fun. Thank you. I love you so much. What you're doing is you so much. What you're doing is you so much. What you're doing is amazing. So grateful for you. amazing. So grateful for you. amazing. So grateful for you. >> Really grateful for you. Thank you. I >> Really grateful for you. Thank you. I >> Really grateful for you. Thank you. I find creativity fascinating and I think find creativity fascinating and I think find creativity fascinating and I think AI could be a real threat to it or it AI could be a real threat to it or it AI could be a real threat to it or it could be a real boon to it. So, if you could be a real boon to it. So, if you could be a real boon to it. So, if you want more of everything we talked about, want more of everything we talked about, want more of everything we talked about, including links to things that we've including links to things that we've including links to things that we've referenced, you can find the show notes referenced, you can find the show notes referenced, you can find the show notes in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join over 21,000 leaders who have signed up, over 21,000 leaders who have signed up, over 21,000 leaders who have signed up, most of them in the last year, actually. most of them in the last year, actually. most of them in the last year, actually. It's been an incredible influx of It's been an incredible influx of It's been an incredible influx of listeners and leaders we've had to the listeners and leaders we've had to the listeners and leaders we've had to the academy. We have honestly the best academy. We have honestly the best academy. We have honestly the best discussions of the episodes inside the discussions of the episodes inside the discussions of the episodes inside the academy. You'll find all the links in academy. You'll find all the links in academy. You'll find all the links in show notes. Just go to the art of show notes. Just go to the art of show notes. Just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com or click the link in the episode to this or click the link in the episode to this or click the link in the episode to this description. And uh also it's a great description. And uh also it's a great description. And uh also it's a great place to connect with other leaders. So place to connect with other leaders. So place to connect with other leaders. So I love to do that with you, man. I love I love to do that with you, man. I love I love to do that with you, man. I love talking to you here on the podcast. I talking to you here on the podcast. I talking to you here on the podcast. I love being on the road. Just coming off love being on the road. Just coming off love being on the road. Just coming off the road for the summer for about a the road for the summer for about a the road for the summer for about a month or so and then back on in August.

month or so and then back on in August. month or so and then back on in August. But if you're a podcast listener and you But if you're a podcast listener and you But if you're a podcast listener and you want to connect personally, best place want to connect personally, best place want to connect personally, best place to do that is in the academy or come see to do that is in the academy or come see to do that is in the academy or come see me at a conference later this year. me at a conference later this year. me at a conference later this year. We've also got coming up on the show, We've also got coming up on the show, We've also got coming up on the show, Michael Bungay Stan is back, Matt Michael Bungay Stan is back, Matt Michael Bungay Stan is back, Matt Chandler, John Ortberg, John Mark Comr Chandler, John Ortberg, John Mark Comr Chandler, John Ortberg, John Mark Comr is back and he and I are going to is back and he and I are going to is back and he and I are going to jointly interview Father Ron Rollheiser. jointly interview Father Ron Rollheiser. jointly interview Father Ron Rollheiser. Big story behind that. And then Kyle Big story behind that. And then Kyle Big story behind that. And then Kyle Idleman and a whole lot more. If you Idleman and a whole lot more. If you Idleman and a whole lot more. If you enjoyed this episode, maybe you want to enjoyed this episode, maybe you want to enjoyed this episode, maybe you want to leave a rating or review uh wherever leave a rating or review uh wherever leave a rating or review uh wherever you're listening or drop a comment. And you're listening or drop a comment. And you're listening or drop a comment. And uh don't forget to share it with a uh don't forget to share it with a uh don't forget to share it with a friend. Maybe you want to send this to friend. Maybe you want to send this to friend. Maybe you want to send this to your team. Maybe you want to make this your team. Maybe you want to make this your team. Maybe you want to make this the topic of a leadership discussion for the topic of a leadership discussion for the topic of a leadership discussion for your elder board or for your staff, your elder board or for your staff, your elder board or for your staff, whatever. Just hit the share button, whatever. Just hit the share button, whatever. Just hit the share button, share it with them. And the best thing share it with them. And the best thing share it with them. And the best thing you can do to make sure that this show you can do to make sure that this show you can do to make sure that this show not only continues but grows with who we not only continues but grows with who we not only continues but grows with who we get on is to hit the follow button get on is to hit the follow button get on is to hit the follow button wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Just hit it and uh you're listening. Just hit it and uh you're listening. Just hit it and uh then you'll never miss an episode, then you'll never miss an episode, then you'll never miss an episode, including all of the great ones that I including all of the great ones that I including all of the great ones that I just shared. And now we got a back just shared. And now we got a back just shared. And now we got a back catalog of over 800 episodes. Thank you catalog of over 800 episodes. Thank you catalog of over 800 episodes. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you for so much for watching. Thank you for so much for watching. Thank you for listening. And I hope our time together listening. And I hope our time together listening. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.