What's Happening with Christianity in America?

We're not quite ready to declare America We're not quite ready to declare America in revival. Is that true? in revival. Is that true? in revival. Is that true? >> That is absolutely correct. >> That is absolutely correct. >> That is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, Unfortunately, Unfortunately, >> why not? >> why not? >> why not? >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big country for one. [laughter] >> One of the central themes is that most >> One of the central themes is that most people um are Christian. They have a people um are Christian. They have a people um are Christian. They have a Christian background. Christian background. Christian background. >> Um but that level of Christian identity >> Um but that level of Christian identity >> Um but that level of Christian identity has declined over 25 years from 83% to has declined over 25 years from 83% to has declined over 25 years from 83% to 71%. 71%. 71%. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. I'm so glad you joined us. whether I'm so glad you joined us. whether I'm so glad you joined us. whether you're watching, wherever you're you're watching, wherever you're you're watching, wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And watching, wherever you're listening. And watching, wherever you're listening. And to all of you who are brand new, really to all of you who are brand new, really to all of you who are brand new, really glad that you joined us. We know we got glad that you joined us. We know we got glad that you joined us. We know we got a lot of NextGen leaders. Actually, a lot of NextGen leaders. Actually, a lot of NextGen leaders. Actually, that's the [music] majority of our that's the [music] majority of our that's the [music] majority of our audience. So, really glad that you're audience. So, really glad that you're audience. So, really glad that you're with us. We're going to be talking about with us. We're going to be talking about with us. We're going to be talking about you, going to be talking about the you, going to be talking about the you, going to be talking about the church, [music] and I'm excited because church, [music] and I'm excited because church, [music] and I'm excited because we're doing a deep dive into our 2026 we're doing a deep dive into our 2026 we're doing a deep dive into our 2026 [music] church trends. I release every [music] church trends. I release every [music] church trends. I release every year church trends for the year, things year church trends for the year, things year church trends for the year, things I'm watching with a lot of research I'm watching with a lot of research I'm watching with a lot of research [music] behind them. And today, I am [music] behind them. And today, I am [music] behind them. And today, I am sitting down with the one and only David sitting down with the one and only David sitting down with the one and only David Kinnaman. He is the CEO of Bara, the Kinnaman. He is the CEO of Bara, the Kinnaman. He is the CEO of Bara, the research group that so many of you know. research group that so many of you know. research group that so many of you know. He is an author. He is a speaker. He's a He is an author. He is a speaker. He's a He is an author. He is a speaker. He's a friend. He's a top leader and uh one of friend. He's a top leader and uh one of friend. He's a top leader and uh one of the the minds and the hearts that I the the minds and the hearts that I the the minds and the hearts that I cherish most in the church these days.

cherish most in the church these days. cherish most in the church these days. When I got questions, I call David. And When I got questions, I call David. And When I got questions, I call David. And uh we get a long friendship and we're uh we get a long friendship and we're uh we get a long friendship and we're bringing that to you today on the bringing that to you today on the bringing that to you today on the podcast. So, we're going to dive right podcast. So, we're going to dive right podcast. So, we're going to dive right into my conversation with David into my conversation with David into my conversation with David Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara Group. Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara Group. Kinnaman, the CEO of the Bara Group. Well, it's so good to be in studio with Well, it's so good to be in studio with Well, it's so good to be in studio with David Kinnman. David, welcome back to David Kinnman. David, welcome back to David Kinnman. David, welcome back to the podcast. the podcast. the podcast. >> Thanks, Carrie. Great to be here. >> Thanks, Carrie. Great to be here. >> Thanks, Carrie. Great to be here. >> It's our annual church trends month. We >> It's our annual church trends month. We >> It's our annual church trends month. We are diving into the data, trying to make are diving into the data, trying to make are diving into the data, trying to make sense of what we're seeing. Uh you and I sense of what we're seeing. Uh you and I sense of what we're seeing. Uh you and I were just before we started recording were just before we started recording were just before we started recording going over some data that was just in going over some data that was just in going over some data that was just in from Bara, even before I wrote the from Bara, even before I wrote the from Bara, even before I wrote the church trends report, and it's sort of church trends report, and it's sort of church trends report, and it's sort of what we were talking about even a year what we were talking about even a year what we were talking about even a year ago, that Gen Z is in revival and ago, that Gen Z is in revival and ago, that Gen Z is in revival and retreat at the same time, right? uh retreat at the same time, right? uh retreat at the same time, right? uh we're not quite ready to declare America we're not quite ready to declare America we're not quite ready to declare America in revival. Is that true? in revival. Is that true? in revival. Is that true? >> That is absolutely correct. >> That is absolutely correct. >> That is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, Unfortunately, Unfortunately, >> why not? >> why not? >> why not? >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big >> Well, listen, it's a big it's a big country for one. [laughter] >> Um uh and and people have a lot of >> Um uh and and people have a lot of different perspectives. I think uh there different perspectives. I think uh there different perspectives. I think uh there are so many different ways to have a are so many different ways to have a are so many different ways to have a narrative about the data about American narrative about the data about American narrative about the data about American religion. And um one of the central religion. And um one of the central religion. And um one of the central themes is that most people um are themes is that most people um are themes is that most people um are Christian. They have a Christian Christian. They have a Christian Christian. They have a Christian background. Mhm.

background. Mhm. background. Mhm. >> Um but that level of Christian identity >> Um but that level of Christian identity >> Um but that level of Christian identity has declined over 25 years from 83% to has declined over 25 years from 83% to has declined over 25 years from 83% to 71%. 71%. 71%. So um we we are seeing a slow and steady So um we we are seeing a slow and steady So um we we are seeing a slow and steady erosion over many decades of Christian erosion over many decades of Christian erosion over many decades of Christian identity, Christian commitment, identity, Christian commitment, identity, Christian commitment, overall churchgoing, you know, has been overall churchgoing, you know, has been overall churchgoing, you know, has been sort of on decline over 20 25 years and sort of on decline over 20 25 years and sort of on decline over 20 25 years and we've been tracking for a lot longer we've been tracking for a lot longer we've been tracking for a lot longer than that. But um yeah, so I think what than that. But um yeah, so I think what than that. But um yeah, so I think what we're seeing is that there still a very we're seeing is that there still a very we're seeing is that there still a very much a Christianized society but not much a Christianized society but not much a Christianized society but not very Christf following and and yet what very Christf following and and yet what very Christf following and and yet what has been popping up over those last 12 has been popping up over those last 12 has been popping up over those last 12 24 months is a renewed spiritual 24 months is a renewed spiritual 24 months is a renewed spiritual openness especially to Jesus and openness especially to Jesus and openness especially to Jesus and especially among young people and also especially among young people and also especially among young people and also notably among men. So um it's notably among men. So um it's notably among men. So um it's interesting how we can have and and interesting how we can have and and interesting how we can have and and research is a um a great tool for this. research is a um a great tool for this. research is a um a great tool for this. We can have a lot of different We can have a lot of different We can have a lot of different narratives that can all be true at the narratives that can all be true at the narratives that can all be true at the same time. same time. same time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the key. It's like it's really easy to key. It's like it's really easy to key. It's like it's really easy to create a headline that's kind of create a headline that's kind of create a headline that's kind of monodimensional, just like revival's monodimensional, just like revival's monodimensional, just like revival's here, right? Which is great. I mean, here, right? Which is great. I mean, here, right? Which is great. I mean, maybe you're adding another service or maybe you're adding another service or maybe you're adding another service or maybe you know you are baptizing maybe you know you are baptizing maybe you know you are baptizing hundreds of students or young adults.

hundreds of students or young adults. hundreds of students or young adults. That's incredible. And there's That's incredible. And there's That's incredible. And there's >> 340 million people to reach in America. >> 340 million people to reach in America. >> 340 million people to reach in America. So, the work isn't quite done yet. So, the work isn't quite done yet. So, the work isn't quite done yet. However, you know, we're going to walk However, you know, we're going to walk However, you know, we're going to walk through some of the church trends and through some of the church trends and through some of the church trends and I'd love your editorial comment. you I'd love your editorial comment. you I'd love your editorial comment. you know, Gen Z really is. I didn't expect know, Gen Z really is. I didn't expect know, Gen Z really is. I didn't expect you and I have been doing this a long you and I have been doing this a long you and I have been doing this a long time and been partnering together on time and been partnering together on time and been partnering together on projects for a long time. I didn't ever projects for a long time. I didn't ever projects for a long time. I didn't ever imagine that uh young adult attendance imagine that uh young adult attendance imagine that uh young adult attendance would outpace their parents and would outpace their parents and would outpace their parents and grandparents attendance at church. grandparents attendance at church. grandparents attendance at church. >> And that's what like legit we're seeing, >> And that's what like legit we're seeing, >> And that's what like legit we're seeing, right? Do you want to talk a little bit right? Do you want to talk a little bit right? Do you want to talk a little bit about what you're noticing in Gen Z? about what you're noticing in Gen Z? about what you're noticing in Gen Z? >> Yeah. So, I mean, the first question you >> Yeah. So, I mean, the first question you >> Yeah. So, I mean, the first question you asked was really about um this notion of asked was really about um this notion of asked was really about um this notion of caution and it's important to sort of caution and it's important to sort of caution and it's important to sort of start on a note of caution. Uh but it's start on a note of caution. Uh but it's start on a note of caution. Uh but it's also like headline really good news also like headline really good news also like headline really good news what's happening across our society um what's happening across our society um what's happening across our society um and and especially among young people and and especially among young people and and especially among young people and and so Gen Z and and so Gen Z and and so Gen Z >> um are attending at one point time 1.9 >> um are attending at one point time 1.9 >> um are attending at one point time 1.9 times per month and this is among Gen Z times per month and this is among Gen Z times per month and this is among Gen Z churchgoers not among all Gen Zers but churchgoers not among all Gen Zers but churchgoers not among all Gen Zers but just among churchgoers.

just among churchgoers. just among churchgoers. >> If you're Gen Z who goes to church >> If you're Gen Z who goes to church >> If you're Gen Z who goes to church you're showing up almost twice a month you're showing up almost twice a month you're showing up almost twice a month >> almost twice a month and uh among >> almost twice a month and uh among >> almost twice a month and uh among millennials it's 1.8 eight. Um, which millennials it's 1.8 eight. Um, which millennials it's 1.8 eight. Um, which which is a real reversal because 25 which is a real reversal because 25 which is a real reversal because 25 years ago, of course, Jenzers weren't years ago, of course, Jenzers weren't years ago, of course, Jenzers weren't even on the scene, but [clears throat] even on the scene, but [clears throat] even on the scene, but [clears throat] 25 years ago, boomers and elders were 25 years ago, boomers and elders were 25 years ago, boomers and elders were attending more than two times a month, attending more than two times a month, attending more than two times a month, 2.1, 2.3, and and they've been on a 2.1, 2.3, and and they've been on a 2.1, 2.3, and and they've been on a steady decline over 25 years. It's a steady decline over 25 years. It's a steady decline over 25 years. It's a surprising decline. Boomers, surprising decline. Boomers, surprising decline. Boomers, >> like boomers are kind of exiting. Yeah, >> like boomers are kind of exiting. Yeah, >> like boomers are kind of exiting. Yeah, >> we we tracked that in previous church >> we we tracked that in previous church >> we we tracked that in previous church trends, but like boomers never really trends, but like boomers never really trends, but like boomers never really came back after co and they're not all came back after co and they're not all came back after co and they're not all 80 in wheelchairs. Like some of these 80 in wheelchairs. Like some of these 80 in wheelchairs. Like some of these are very capable retired people in their are very capable retired people in their are very capable retired people in their 60s and 70s and they're just kind of 60s and 70s and they're just kind of 60s and 70s and they're just kind of like done my time. like done my time. like done my time. >> They're retiring from uh their jobs and >> They're retiring from uh their jobs and >> They're retiring from uh their jobs and they're retiring from the church. they're retiring from the church. they're retiring from the church. >> Yeah. That's like puzzling because you >> Yeah. That's like puzzling because you >> Yeah. That's like puzzling because you would expect, you know, parents and would expect, you know, parents and would expect, you know, parents and grandparents trying to drag their kids grandparents trying to drag their kids grandparents trying to drag their kids to church. If anything, we're seeing a to church. If anything, we're seeing a to church. If anything, we're seeing a reversal. reversal. reversal. >> That's right. Yeah. young adults saying, >> That's right. Yeah. young adults saying, >> That's right. Yeah. young adults saying, "Hey, granddad." "Hey, granddad." "Hey, granddad." >> Yeah. So, I think I think Gen Z and >> Yeah. So, I think I think Gen Z and >> Yeah. So, I think I think Gen Z and millennials are taking the church more millennials are taking the church more millennials are taking the church more seriously than any of us would have seriously than any of us would have seriously than any of us would have predicted predicted predicted >> even 5 years ago. Uh, and certainly 25 >> even 5 years ago. Uh, and certainly 25 >> even 5 years ago. Uh, and certainly 25 years ago or, you know, like I wrote a years ago or, you know, like I wrote a years ago or, you know, like I wrote a book called You Lost Me and was focusing book called You Lost Me and was focusing book called You Lost Me and was focusing on a lot of this disincclination towards on a lot of this disincclination towards on a lot of this disincclination towards faith. And so, I think there's been just faith. And so, I think there's been just faith. And so, I think there's been just like, wow, what has happened? Why are we like, wow, what has happened? Why are we like, wow, what has happened? Why are we seeing some of this renewal? And it's seeing some of this renewal? And it's seeing some of this renewal? And it's very important for us just to celebrate.

very important for us just to celebrate. very important for us just to celebrate. These are the days we have been praying These are the days we have been praying These are the days we have been praying for. for. for. >> Yeah. And it's like you you hinted at >> Yeah. And it's like you you hinted at >> Yeah. And it's like you you hinted at earlier, it's not like there is still earlier, it's not like there is still earlier, it's not like there is still diffused spirituality where it's like diffused spirituality where it's like diffused spirituality where it's like I'm spiritual but I'm not Christian. But I'm spiritual but I'm not Christian. But I'm spiritual but I'm not Christian. But I think that's so what's so surprising I think that's so what's so surprising I think that's so what's so surprising in the last couple years is that no, in the last couple years is that no, in the last couple years is that no, it's Jesus and yes, it involves church it's Jesus and yes, it involves church it's Jesus and yes, it involves church attendance. [clears throat] attendance. [clears throat] attendance. [clears throat] >> That that we're seeing that surge in >> That that we're seeing that surge in >> That that we're seeing that surge in church attendance among young adults, church attendance among young adults, church attendance among young adults, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um so 1.9 times a month, like as a >> Um so 1.9 times a month, like as a >> Um so 1.9 times a month, like as a former pastor myself, I'm like, "Oh, why former pastor myself, I'm like, "Oh, why former pastor myself, I'm like, "Oh, why aren't they there four Sundays a Well, aren't they there four Sundays a Well, aren't they there four Sundays a Well, nobody's there four Sundays a month nobody's there four Sundays a month nobody's there four Sundays a month anymore. I mean, maybe Glattus is. Thank anymore. I mean, maybe Glattus is. Thank anymore. I mean, maybe Glattus is. Thank God for Glattus. She's amazing, right? God for Glattus. She's amazing, right? God for Glattus. She's amazing, right? But but most people like twice a month But but most people like twice a month But but most people like twice a month is regular church attendance. That's a a is regular church attendance. That's a a is regular church attendance. That's a a trend that we've been tracking and it's trend that we've been tracking and it's trend that we've been tracking and it's the most of any age group. Another thing the most of any age group. Another thing the most of any age group. Another thing that we've seen in the Bara data, which that we've seen in the Bara data, which that we've seen in the Bara data, which is which is interesting and disturbing, is which is interesting and disturbing, is which is interesting and disturbing, is young men are surging back to church. is young men are surging back to church. is young men are surging back to church. That's that's great. Like we're seeing That's that's great. Like we're seeing That's that's great. Like we're seeing an outpouring of young men. And I mean, an outpouring of young men. And I mean, an outpouring of young men. And I mean, I've seen that in our church at home I've seen that in our church at home I've seen that in our church at home north of Toronto. I I've been here in north of Toronto. I I've been here in north of Toronto. I I've been here in Nashville for a month. I've seen it at Nashville for a month. I've seen it at Nashville for a month. I've seen it at the churches in Nashville. Like, there the churches in Nashville. Like, there the churches in Nashville. Like, there are young adults who are really engaging are young adults who are really engaging are young adults who are really engaging in it. But we also see women who are in it. But we also see women who are in it. But we also see women who are disengaging, right?

disengaging, right? disengaging, right? >> Like their church attendance is >> Like their church attendance is >> Like their church attendance is dropping. Their Bible reading is down. dropping. Their Bible reading is down. dropping. Their Bible reading is down. And I really want to drill into that a And I really want to drill into that a And I really want to drill into that a little bit. I know there's a lot more little bit. I know there's a lot more little bit. I know there's a lot more data needed data needed data needed >> on that, but let's talk about the gender >> on that, but let's talk about the gender >> on that, but let's talk about the gender difference that we're seeing in younger difference that we're seeing in younger difference that we're seeing in younger millennials and Gen Z. millennials and Gen Z. millennials and Gen Z. >> Sure. Well, uh, let's try to break down >> Sure. Well, uh, let's try to break down >> Sure. Well, uh, let's try to break down the data first and then get into some of the data first and then get into some of the data first and then get into some of the why. Uh, and and and some of that the why. Uh, and and and some of that the why. Uh, and and and some of that will be will be will be >> So, what does the data say? >> So, what does the data say? >> So, what does the data say? >> Yeah. So, the speculation on why will >> Yeah. So, the speculation on why will >> Yeah. So, the speculation on why will will be more that, but but let's talk will be more that, but but let's talk will be more that, but but let's talk about what we do know. about what we do know. about what we do know. >> We do know that um overall men are more >> We do know that um overall men are more >> We do know that um overall men are more likely now than women to attend church. likely now than women to attend church. likely now than women to attend church. And this has been about a 5-year And this has been about a 5-year And this has been about a 5-year pattern, but especially in 2025, men far pattern, but especially in 2025, men far pattern, but especially in 2025, men far outpaced women's reported church outpaced women's reported church outpaced women's reported church attendance in America generally. Not attendance in America generally. Not attendance in America generally. Not just among young people, but among among just among young people, but among among just among young people, but among among all Americans, all Americans, all Americans, >> all Americans. So, this goes across the >> all Americans. So, this goes across the >> all Americans. So, this goes across the spectrum. spectrum. spectrum. >> Correct. So men generally are more >> Correct. So men generally are more >> Correct. So men generally are more likely to report church attendance than likely to report church attendance than likely to report church attendance than women, which even if they are um Ed women, which even if they are um Ed women, which even if they are um Ed Stzer has this a great little line that Stzer has this a great little line that Stzer has this a great little line that there's a technical uh social research there's a technical uh social research there's a technical uh social research term we have for people who over report term we have for people who over report term we have for people who over report some of their religious religious some of their religious religious some of their religious religious attendance. We call it lying. [laughter] attendance. We call it lying. [laughter] attendance. We call it lying. [laughter] >> Um yeah, I was in church. I was uh but >> Um yeah, I was in church. I was uh but >> Um yeah, I was in church. I was uh but it's actually called the halo effect.

it's actually called the halo effect. it's actually called the halo effect. The actual technical term is called the The actual technical term is called the The actual technical term is called the halo effect. People want to look more halo effect. People want to look more halo effect. People want to look more religious than they do. religious than they do. religious than they do. >> I eat clean. I What do you have for >> I eat clean. I What do you have for >> I eat clean. I What do you have for lunch? a burger. Clean burger. Clean lunch? a burger. Clean burger. Clean lunch? a burger. Clean burger. Clean burger. But yeah, these people tend to burger. But yeah, these people tend to burger. But yeah, these people tend to overoptimize overoptimize overoptimize >> their self-reporting. They do. They do. >> their self-reporting. They do. They do. >> their self-reporting. They do. They do. >> I go to church regularly. I eat clean. I >> I go to church regularly. I eat clean. I >> I go to church regularly. I eat clean. I eat healthy. I get eight hours of sleep. eat healthy. I get eight hours of sleep. eat healthy. I get eight hours of sleep. >> Let's audit that. >> Let's audit that. >> Let's audit that. >> Right. Right. So, um there is certainly >> Right. Right. So, um there is certainly >> Right. Right. So, um there is certainly in social research a halo effect that in social research a halo effect that in social research a halo effect that always happens. And it certainly affects always happens. And it certainly affects always happens. And it certainly affects uh religious reported behavior and uh religious reported behavior and uh religious reported behavior and intention. But even that um first of all intention. But even that um first of all intention. But even that um first of all they are likely to report or over report they are likely to report or over report they are likely to report or over report or under reportport in the same manner. or under reportport in the same manner. or under reportport in the same manner. So as you're a classically trained So as you're a classically trained So as you're a classically trained social researcher you would say if we're social researcher you would say if we're social researcher you would say if we're asking the same question using the same asking the same question using the same asking the same question using the same methodology and even if there is some methodology and even if there is some methodology and even if there is some degree of variance in a person's um degree of variance in a person's um degree of variance in a person's um perception of reality and again I think perception of reality and again I think perception of reality and again I think I think there's a reason to believe that I think there's a reason to believe that I think there's a reason to believe that people are being as honest as they can people are being as honest as they can people are being as honest as they can be. But so so the fact that men are be. But so so the fact that men are be. But so so the fact that men are actually telling us that they're more actually telling us that they're more actually telling us that they're more likely to attend church and that's been likely to attend church and that's been likely to attend church and that's been happening in the last 5 years tells us happening in the last 5 years tells us happening in the last 5 years tells us something about the mentality of men something about the mentality of men something about the mentality of men even if you know and and you're saying even if you know and and you're saying even if you know and and you're saying you're seeing men in in your local you're seeing men in in your local you're seeing men in in your local church. We're seeing this across a lot church. We're seeing this across a lot church. We're seeing this across a lot of different places. So men are more of different places. So men are more of different places. So men are more likely to attend church. They're more likely to attend church. They're more likely to attend church. They're more likely to report attending church. And likely to report attending church. And likely to report attending church. And that tells us something about the the that tells us something about the the that tells us something about the the perceived importance of faith. There perceived importance of faith. There perceived importance of faith. There there is a sense in which there is a sense in which there is a sense in which >> it's okay and popular again to talk >> it's okay and popular again to talk >> it's okay and popular again to talk about faith, Christianity, Jesus, the about faith, Christianity, Jesus, the about faith, Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, the church. And and we're Bible, the church. And and we're Bible, the church. And and we're especially seeing that among young especially seeing that among young especially seeing that among young people, which leads me to my second people, which leads me to my second people, which leads me to my second point, that it's young people um and point, that it's young people um and point, that it's young people um and young men who are much more likely than young men who are much more likely than young men who are much more likely than young women to attend church. Uh young

young women to attend church. Uh young young women to attend church. Uh young women are also more likely to tell us uh women are also more likely to tell us uh women are also more likely to tell us uh and this is among young teen teenagers and this is among young teen teenagers and this is among young teen teenagers who are who are who are women. Um this who are who are who are women. Um this who are who are who are women. Um this is among young adults who are women. is among young adults who are women. is among young adults who are women. They're more likely than young men to They're more likely than young men to They're more likely than young men to tell us that they're religiously tell us that they're religiously tell us that they're religiously unincclined, that they're they have no unincclined, that they're they have no unincclined, that they're they have no faith, faith, faith, >> which is another like 20 years ago, it >> which is another like 20 years ago, it >> which is another like 20 years ago, it was men who were leading the charge of was men who were leading the charge of was men who were leading the charge of the nuns, the n's. the nuns, the n's. the nuns, the n's. >> So, something has really shifted in >> So, something has really shifted in >> So, something has really shifted in American spirituality and it's it seems American spirituality and it's it seems American spirituality and it's it seems to be consistent with other places to be consistent with other places to be consistent with other places across the West that um there is across the West that um there is across the West that um there is something about the plausibility of something about the plausibility of something about the plausibility of Christianity that has been appealing to Christianity that has been appealing to Christianity that has been appealing to men. there is um some real question and men. there is um some real question and men. there is um some real question and that and that's about church that's that and that's about church that's that and that's about church that's about Jesus that's about the Bible um about Jesus that's about the Bible um about Jesus that's about the Bible um it's about the importance of religious it's about the importance of religious it's about the importance of religious faith so across the board all of these faith so across the board all of these faith so across the board all of these indicators are starting to blink from indicators are starting to blink from indicators are starting to blink from red to yellow from yellow to green among red to yellow from yellow to green among red to yellow from yellow to green among men and they're going from green to men and they're going from green to men and they're going from green to yellow and sometimes to red among women yellow and sometimes to red among women yellow and sometimes to red among women >> yeah because I I I seem to remember it >> yeah because I I I seem to remember it >> yeah because I I I seem to remember it was also not just yeah we're checking was also not just yeah we're checking was also not just yeah we're checking out on the church for women but it was out on the church for women but it was out on the church for women but it was like Bible reading is down and Their like Bible reading is down and Their like Bible reading is down and Their profession of faith is down.

profession of faith is down. profession of faith is down. >> Correct. Identification across >> Correct. Identification across >> Correct. Identification across volunteerism volunteerism volunteerism has dropped in half over 25 years among has dropped in half over 25 years among has dropped in half over 25 years among women. They don't want to be your women. They don't want to be your women. They don't want to be your church's free labor. church's free labor. church's free labor. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, you know, the backbone of church >> So, you know, the backbone of church >> So, you know, the backbone of church volunteers has been women for decades, volunteers has been women for decades, volunteers has been women for decades, but the last 10 years, we've seen a but the last 10 years, we've seen a but the last 10 years, we've seen a steady and now precipitous decline in steady and now precipitous decline in steady and now precipitous decline in women who want to volunteer for church. women who want to volunteer for church. women who want to volunteer for church. >> So, I'm going to jump at the Y why? >> So, I'm going to jump at the Y why? >> So, I'm going to jump at the Y why? Because that's what's going off in my Because that's what's going off in my Because that's what's going off in my brain right now. Yeah. But what other um brain right now. Yeah. But what other um brain right now. Yeah. But what other um before we go there, statistics, what before we go there, statistics, what before we go there, statistics, what other stats, if any, are you noticing on other stats, if any, are you noticing on other stats, if any, are you noticing on the gender divide in between men and the gender divide in between men and the gender divide in between men and women in the church? women in the church? women in the church? >> Well, one thing that was super >> Well, one thing that was super >> Well, one thing that was super interesting, we just released this um interesting, we just released this um interesting, we just released this um just a bit ago, uh towards the last half just a bit ago, uh towards the last half just a bit ago, uh towards the last half of 2025 on the Bible, of course, a big of 2025 on the Bible, of course, a big of 2025 on the Bible, of course, a big celebration of the Bible, a billion celebration of the Bible, a billion celebration of the Bible, a billion downloads of the U version. downloads of the U version. downloads of the U version. >> That was cool. We were at that event. It >> That was cool. We were at that event. It >> That was cool. We were at that event. It was unbelievable. was unbelievable. was unbelievable. >> Amazing. And and lots to celebrate. And >> Amazing. And and lots to celebrate. And >> Amazing. And and lots to celebrate. And we're seeing that in social research, we're seeing that in social research, we're seeing that in social research, real spikes in interest, reading, real spikes in interest, reading, real spikes in interest, reading, importance of the Bible. Um, and and importance of the Bible. Um, and and importance of the Bible. Um, and and what's fascinating is some of these same what's fascinating is some of these same what's fascinating is some of these same trends are consistent. Again, it's so trends are consistent. Again, it's so trends are consistent. Again, it's so interesting as we're looking at data.

interesting as we're looking at data. interesting as we're looking at data. And you know, you actually want to see And you know, you actually want to see And you know, you actually want to see these variety of data points both over these variety of data points both over these variety of data points both over time and over different sampling and and time and over different sampling and and time and over different sampling and and uh in different kinds of ways of of uh in different kinds of ways of of uh in different kinds of ways of of measuring it. So, we're actually seeing measuring it. So, we're actually seeing measuring it. So, we're actually seeing that Bible reading like boomer women that Bible reading like boomer women that Bible reading like boomer women read the Bible more than Boomer men. read the Bible more than Boomer men. read the Bible more than Boomer men. And that's been that's been true for as And that's been that's been true for as And that's been that's been true for as long as we've measured it. long as we've measured it. long as we've measured it. >> But all of that is starting to shift >> But all of that is starting to shift >> But all of that is starting to shift where now boomer men and women are just where now boomer men and women are just where now boomer men and women are just barely different. And it's among Gen Z barely different. And it's among Gen Z barely different. And it's among Gen Z uh men are much more likely to report uh men are much more likely to report uh men are much more likely to report reading the Bible than Gen Z women. And reading the Bible than Gen Z women. And reading the Bible than Gen Z women. And and so and same was true of millennials. and so and same was true of millennials. and so and same was true of millennials. And so this and it's we can literally And so this and it's we can literally And so this and it's we can literally see it's like in the last decade this see it's like in the last decade this see it's like in the last decade this like shift where men are open to the like shift where men are open to the like shift where men are open to the plausibility of the Bible. um at least plausibility of the Bible. um at least plausibility of the Bible. um at least as they're reporting it to us, you know, as they're reporting it to us, you know, as they're reporting it to us, you know, and like the everything I just told you and like the everything I just told you and like the everything I just told you about this like perception of reality is about this like perception of reality is about this like perception of reality is partly the reality. And so I just think partly the reality. And so I just think partly the reality. And so I just think it's a such a fascinating time uh to be it's a such a fascinating time uh to be it's a such a fascinating time uh to be to be doing ministry cuz uh some of to be doing ministry cuz uh some of to be doing ministry cuz uh some of these you know sacrosanked ideas of you these you know sacrosanked ideas of you these you know sacrosanked ideas of you know how how gender plays itself out in know how how gender plays itself out in know how how gender plays itself out in uh in church attendance or importance of uh in church attendance or importance of uh in church attendance or importance of the Bible. Like there's some really the Bible. Like there's some really the Bible. Like there's some really interesting things that are happening interesting things that are happening interesting things that are happening and I think we have to pay attention to and I think we have to pay attention to and I think we have to pay attention to that. Yeah, the dials are all moving that. Yeah, the dials are all moving that. Yeah, the dials are all moving because historically, and I mean I'm because historically, and I mean I'm because historically, and I mean I'm grossly generalizing here, but it's been grossly generalizing here, but it's been grossly generalizing here, but it's been nuns are rising, people who identify as nuns are rising, people who identify as nuns are rising, people who identify as Christians going down, church attendance Christians going down, church attendance Christians going down, church attendance is going down, average size of church is is going down, average size of church is is going down, average size of church is going down, and for the first time that going down, and for the first time that going down, and for the first time that I can remember, you know, since I stuck

I can remember, you know, since I stuck I can remember, you know, since I stuck my head out and started paying attention my head out and started paying attention my head out and started paying attention to data 15 years ago or so, we're seeing to data 15 years ago or so, we're seeing to data 15 years ago or so, we're seeing a lot of surprises like the gender's a lot of surprises like the gender's a lot of surprises like the gender's moving in other directions. uh you know moving in other directions. uh you know moving in other directions. uh you know younger people leading the charge etc. younger people leading the charge etc. younger people leading the charge etc. And you know, we've seen the same with, And you know, we've seen the same with, And you know, we've seen the same with, you mentioned Bible reading, but I was you mentioned Bible reading, but I was you mentioned Bible reading, but I was talking to Bobby Grindwald and in talking to Bobby Grindwald and in talking to Bobby Grindwald and in November Uver, November 2025, Uver had November Uver, November 2025, Uver had November Uver, November 2025, Uver had its I think top three downloaded days. its I think top three downloaded days. its I think top three downloaded days. And it's like why? And he's like, no And it's like why? And he's like, no And it's like why? And he's like, no particular reason. There was no push, particular reason. There was no push, particular reason. There was no push, there was no campaign, there was no there was no campaign, there was no there was no campaign, there was no holiday. It was just like a big spike in holiday. It was just like a big spike in holiday. It was just like a big spike in people going today, I'm going to pick up people going today, I'm going to pick up people going today, I'm going to pick up my Bible. M my Bible. M my Bible. M >> so this is this is showing up on not >> so this is this is showing up on not >> so this is this is showing up on not just your research but so many just your research but so many just your research but so many dashboards dashboards dashboards >> right Bible sales >> right Bible sales >> right Bible sales >> Bible downloads people showing up at >> Bible downloads people showing up at >> Bible downloads people showing up at church church church >> the number of pastors who in 2025 I >> the number of pastors who in 2025 I >> the number of pastors who in 2025 I heard from that said we're doing record heard from that said we're doing record heard from that said we're doing record baptisms never baptized this many people baptisms never baptized this many people baptisms never baptized this many people and this many young people so now it's and this many young people so now it's and this many young people so now it's time to to speculate and I think you time to to speculate and I think you time to to speculate and I think you guys in 2026 at Bara uh are going to do guys in 2026 at Bara uh are going to do guys in 2026 at Bara uh are going to do some research on this so I can't wait some research on this so I can't wait some research on this so I can't wait for that conversation but Like why are for that conversation but Like why are for that conversation but Like why are men I think I think the first draft of men I think I think the first draft of men I think I think the first draft of church trends was like rushing back to church trends was like rushing back to church trends was like rushing back to church and I sent it to you and you're church and I sent it to you and you're church and I sent it to you and you're like rushing might be an exaggeration.

like rushing might be an exaggeration. like rushing might be an exaggeration. It's like coming back to church, right? It's like coming back to church, right? It's like coming back to church, right? So So So >> so Gen Z male attendance is surging. >> so Gen Z male attendance is surging. >> so Gen Z male attendance is surging. >> Why do you think men I mean from what >> Why do you think men I mean from what >> Why do you think men I mean from what you can tell both with your you know you can tell both with your you know you can tell both with your you know finger up in the wind but also looking finger up in the wind but also looking finger up in the wind but also looking at the data why do you think this is a at the data why do you think this is a at the data why do you think this is a particular moment for young men? particular moment for young men? particular moment for young men? I think there's such a lack of I think there's such a lack of I think there's such a lack of understanding who we are, where we're understanding who we are, where we're understanding who we are, where we're heading, what it means to be human, much heading, what it means to be human, much heading, what it means to be human, much less what it means means to be a man or less what it means means to be a man or less what it means means to be a man or to be a woman or to be young or to be to be a woman or to be young or to be to be a woman or to be young or to be old. And I think, you know, I've been uh old. And I think, you know, I've been uh old. And I think, you know, I've been uh talking about this, writing about this talking about this, writing about this talking about this, writing about this for a while, the the the the digital for a while, the the the the digital for a while, the the the the digital experience of I call it digital Babylon. experience of I call it digital Babylon. experience of I call it digital Babylon. All of these five or six companies All of these five or six companies All of these five or six companies dictate so much of what we think it dictate so much of what we think it dictate so much of what we think it means to be human. means to be human. means to be human. >> So true. uh they dictate the you know >> So true. uh they dictate the you know >> So true. uh they dictate the you know the majority of American economic growth the majority of American economic growth the majority of American economic growth and value. Uh you know we're talking and value. Uh you know we're talking and value. Uh you know we're talking about Apple, Facebook, you know um about Apple, Facebook, you know um about Apple, Facebook, you know um >> Yeah. Right. And so >> Yeah. Right. And so >> Yeah. Right. And so >> open AI anthropic.

>> open AI anthropic. >> open AI anthropic. >> Exactly. And so that's a we're living in >> Exactly. And so that's a we're living in >> Exactly. And so that's a we're living in a in a in a tech utopia and dystopia a in a in a tech utopia and dystopia a in a in a tech utopia and dystopia both you know like like revival and both you know like like revival and both you know like like revival and retreat. We're living in a utopian world retreat. We're living in a utopian world retreat. We're living in a utopian world where we can communicate magically where we can communicate magically where we can communicate magically across great distances and you know the across great distances and you know the across great distances and you know the digital world transforms reality in some digital world transforms reality in some digital world transforms reality in some fashion uh kind of augmented and virtual fashion uh kind of augmented and virtual fashion uh kind of augmented and virtual reality and then it also is a dystopian reality and then it also is a dystopian reality and then it also is a dystopian world. So so that's a I don't want to go world. So so that's a I don't want to go world. So so that's a I don't want to go too down too far down a a rabbit hole too down too far down a a rabbit hole too down too far down a a rabbit hole but I will say that I think there has but I will say that I think there has but I will say that I think there has been a kind of generational reckoning been a kind of generational reckoning been a kind of generational reckoning >> um about what it means to be human. Uh, >> um about what it means to be human. Uh, >> um about what it means to be human. Uh, one of the bests sellers of late 2025 one of the bests sellers of late 2025 one of the bests sellers of late 2025 was Notes on Being a Man from Scott was Notes on Being a Man from Scott was Notes on Being a Man from Scott Galloway. Galloway. Galloway. >> Notes on Being a Man, a New York Times >> Notes on Being a Man, a New York Times >> Notes on Being a Man, a New York Times number one bestseller. number one bestseller. number one bestseller. >> Um, I believe it was number one. I know >> Um, I believe it was number one. I know >> Um, I believe it was number one. I know it was a bestseller right when it it was a bestseller right when it it was a bestseller right when it launched. And, um, that idea of like launched. And, um, that idea of like launched. And, um, that idea of like notes on being a man. So, I think people notes on being a man. So, I think people notes on being a man. So, I think people are coming to church, men, young men. are coming to church, men, young men. are coming to church, men, young men. >> Um, again, this is in the research, >> Um, again, this is in the research, >> Um, again, this is in the research, social research doesn't tell us why, but social research doesn't tell us why, but social research doesn't tell us why, but it does does give us some indications it does does give us some indications it does does give us some indications and we are going to do quite a bit more and we are going to do quite a bit more and we are going to do quite a bit more research on this. But I think people are research on this. But I think people are research on this. But I think people are coming because they're they're looking coming because they're they're looking coming because they're they're looking for what does it mean to be human? What for what does it mean to be human? What for what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be a man? What does it does it mean to be a man? What does it does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to have a kind of uh foundation mean to have a kind of uh foundation mean to have a kind of uh foundation upon which you would build a life? Now, upon which you would build a life? Now, upon which you would build a life? Now, it's also true that it seems to be a it's also true that it seems to be a it's also true that it seems to be a conflation of a lot of political forces conflation of a lot of political forces conflation of a lot of political forces as well. So, women are becoming a little as well. So, women are becoming a little as well. So, women are becoming a little more progressive um politically across more progressive um politically across more progressive um politically across uh our society and especially young uh our society and especially young uh our society and especially young women. Uh men are becoming more women. Uh men are becoming more women. Uh men are becoming more conservative politically um especially conservative politically um especially conservative politically um especially young men. Um and um and so the church

young men. Um and um and so the church young men. Um and um and so the church works a little bit better. Um the works a little bit better. Um the works a little bit better. Um the churches we swim in work a little bit churches we swim in work a little bit churches we swim in work a little bit better for uh better for uh better for uh >> for young men than they do for young >> for young men than they do for young >> for young men than they do for young women. women. women. >> Yeah. I think I was reading some Ryan >> Yeah. I think I was reading some Ryan >> Yeah. I think I was reading some Ryan Burge recently and he was showing just Burge recently and he was showing just Burge recently and he was showing just how big that spread is between the how big that spread is between the how big that spread is between the conservatism of young men and the conservatism of young men and the conservatism of young men and the moderatism or liberalism of young women. moderatism or liberalism of young women. moderatism or liberalism of young women. Like it's quite a quite a gap. Like it's quite a quite a gap. Like it's quite a quite a gap. >> It is a huge story and there are some >> It is a huge story and there are some >> It is a huge story and there are some real open and important questions and real open and important questions and real open and important questions and here we are two men talk about it. So we here we are two men talk about it. So we here we are two men talk about it. So we have to be we have to be cautious about have to be we have to be cautious about have to be we have to be cautious about leaning too far into trying to provide a leaning too far into trying to provide a leaning too far into trying to provide a narrative or man's plain women's narrative or man's plain women's narrative or man's plain women's experience to them about the church. But experience to them about the church. But experience to them about the church. But so there's this widening gap and um I so there's this widening gap and um I so there's this widening gap and um I think there's an important you know set think there's an important you know set think there's an important you know set of questions are like it's an open of questions are like it's an open of questions are like it's an open question but let's just weigh in on it question but let's just weigh in on it question but let's just weigh in on it like are people coming back to church in like are people coming back to church in like are people coming back to church in part because the political environment part because the political environment part because the political environment or there's a political undertone or there's a political undertone or there's a political undertone uh to what's happening and and I think uh to what's happening and and I think uh to what's happening and and I think the answer is yes to to what's the the answer is yes to to what's the the answer is yes to to what's the extent we don't know. Um, one one extent we don't know. Um, one one extent we don't know. Um, one one interesting thing that a friend of mine, interesting thing that a friend of mine, interesting thing that a friend of mine, Mark Mlock, said recently was, um, Mark Mlock, said recently was, um, Mark Mlock, said recently was, um, people came to Jesus, including his people came to Jesus, including his people came to Jesus, including his disciples, for political reasons. And it disciples, for political reasons. And it disciples, for political reasons. And it took him three years, and even still, took him three years, and even still, took him three years, and even still, they were like waiting for Jesus to be a they were like waiting for Jesus to be a they were like waiting for Jesus to be a political messiah, not just a spiritual political messiah, not just a spiritual political messiah, not just a spiritual savior.

savior. savior. >> And and so I think there's a good >> And and so I think there's a good >> And and so I think there's a good question. We actually have this in one question. We actually have this in one question. We actually have this in one of our future surveys. Stay tuned. Uh, of our future surveys. Stay tuned. Uh, of our future surveys. Stay tuned. Uh, if a person comes to Jesus for the wrong if a person comes to Jesus for the wrong if a person comes to Jesus for the wrong reasons, can God still use that? And, reasons, can God still use that? And, reasons, can God still use that? And, you know, we'll see what Americans have you know, we'll see what Americans have you know, we'll see what Americans have to say about that. That's a great to say about that. That's a great to say about that. That's a great question right now when you think about question right now when you think about question right now when you think about all the influencers online who are new all the influencers online who are new all the influencers online who are new Christians, right? Christians, right? Christians, right? >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Visitor Reach. Did you know that Bible Visitor Reach. Did you know that Bible Visitor Reach. Did you know that Bible reading in America is actually exploding reading in America is actually exploding reading in America is actually exploding again? 42% of adults now read scripture again? 42% of adults now read scripture again? 42% of adults now read scripture weekly and young adults are showing the weekly and young adults are showing the weekly and young adults are showing the strongest surge in spiritual interest in strongest surge in spiritual interest in strongest surge in spiritual interest in over a decade. So, let me ask you, is over a decade. So, let me ask you, is over a decade. So, let me ask you, is your church ready for the next American your church ready for the next American your church ready for the next American Revival? People are searching, but Revival? People are searching, but Revival? People are searching, but they're also searching online. And they're also searching online. And they're also searching online. And that's where visitor reach comes in. that's where visitor reach comes in. that's where visitor reach comes in. Visitor reach helps your church show up Visitor reach helps your church show up Visitor reach helps your church show up where people are looking, online, on where people are looking, online, on where people are looking, online, on social media, and on their phones. And social media, and on their phones. And social media, and on their phones. And with texting now the norm for with texting now the norm for with texting now the norm for communication, churches need new tools communication, churches need new tools communication, churches need new tools to connect. Built for pastors by to connect. Built for pastors by to connect. Built for pastors by pastors, Visitor Reach is an all-in-one pastors, Visitor Reach is an all-in-one pastors, Visitor Reach is an all-in-one platform designed to help churches platform designed to help churches platform designed to help churches connect with seekers even before they connect with seekers even before they connect with seekers even before they visit. Using personalized text replies, visit. Using personalized text replies, visit. Using personalized text replies, optional AI assistance, and tap optional AI assistance, and tap optional AI assistance, and tap technology, all to guide people to their technology, all to guide people to their technology, all to guide people to their next spiritual step. Churches using next spiritual step. Churches using next spiritual step. Churches using visitor reach connect with up to 20 to visitor reach connect with up to 20 to visitor reach connect with up to 20 to 120 new people every month. And they see 120 new people every month. And they see 120 new people every month. And they see new visitors walking through their doors new visitors walking through their doors new visitors walking through their doors every single week. So, if you're every single week. So, if you're every single week. So, if you're curious, you can learn more and book curious, you can learn more and book curious, you can learn more and book your demo today at your demo today at your demo today at visitorreach.com/carry.

visitorreach.com/carry. visitorreach.com/carry. That's visitorreach.com/carey. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Aspen Groupoup. So, if you've been Aspen Groupoup. So, if you've been Aspen Groupoup. So, if you've been thinking about renovating, adding on to, thinking about renovating, adding on to, thinking about renovating, adding on to, or opening a new church building, you're or opening a new church building, you're or opening a new church building, you're going to want to listen in. Aspen Group going to want to listen in. Aspen Group going to want to listen in. Aspen Group believes your church building is an believes your church building is an believes your church building is an essential tool for spiritual formation. essential tool for spiritual formation. essential tool for spiritual formation. and they are passionate about crafting and they are passionate about crafting and they are passionate about crafting spaces that engage community, drive spaces that engage community, drive spaces that engage community, drive disciplehip, and build faith. What makes disciplehip, and build faith. What makes disciplehip, and build faith. What makes Aspen Group different is their Aspen Group different is their Aspen Group different is their experience with the unique challenges of experience with the unique challenges of experience with the unique challenges of church building projects. They bring church building projects. They bring church building projects. They bring together an integrated team of designers together an integrated team of designers together an integrated team of designers and builders who understand your and builders who understand your and builders who understand your church's culture, your vision, and your church's culture, your vision, and your church's culture, your vision, and your strategic needs so your project actually strategic needs so your project actually strategic needs so your project actually advances your mission instead of slowing advances your mission instead of slowing advances your mission instead of slowing you down. If this sounds like the team you down. If this sounds like the team you down. If this sounds like the team you want to partner with for your church you want to partner with for your church you want to partner with for your church space, visit aspengroup.com/carry. space, visit aspengroup.com/carry. space, visit aspengroup.com/carry. That's aspegr.com/c r y. It's really interesting. By the r y. It's really interesting. By the way, I want to put a pin in this. We way, I want to put a pin in this. We way, I want to put a pin in this. We have at least one episode, maybe two, have at least one episode, maybe two, have at least one episode, maybe two, coming up with women about women's exit coming up with women about women's exit coming up with women about women's exit from the church. So, if you're like, from the church. So, if you're like, from the church. So, if you're like, great, two white dudes talking about great, two white dudes talking about great, two white dudes talking about women exiting the church, stay tuned.

women exiting the church, stay tuned. women exiting the church, stay tuned. >> Yeah. Good. Um, and and I'm really >> Yeah. Good. Um, and and I'm really >> Yeah. Good. Um, and and I'm really looking forward to the survey that looking forward to the survey that looking forward to the survey that you're doing on that and the information you're doing on that and the information you're doing on that and the information you're going to resolve. Part of it, you're going to resolve. Part of it, you're going to resolve. Part of it, like as we pulled our audience, you like as we pulled our audience, you like as we pulled our audience, you know, we asked in an email, what do you know, we asked in an email, what do you know, we asked in an email, what do you think? think? think? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's like bro culture has kind of >> It's like bro culture has kind of >> It's like bro culture has kind of infiltrated the church and that's a for infiltrated the church and that's a for infiltrated the church and that's a for better for worse, better for worse, better for worse, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I mean, there's a there's a line, I >> I mean, there's a there's a line, I >> I mean, there's a there's a line, I don't know where it is, with toxic don't know where it is, with toxic don't know where it is, with toxic masculinity masculinity masculinity where I'm like, yeah, that's over the where I'm like, yeah, that's over the where I'm like, yeah, that's over the line. But like I talked to one pastor I line. But like I talked to one pastor I line. But like I talked to one pastor I don't want to name but he leads a very don't want to name but he leads a very don't want to name but he leads a very large church and he was saying they're large church and he was saying they're large church and he was saying they're reaching a lot of young men. He's like reaching a lot of young men. He's like reaching a lot of young men. He's like you know for decades we've told young you know for decades we've told young you know for decades we've told young men. Scott Galloway, for example, his men. Scott Galloway, for example, his men. Scott Galloway, for example, his message is you don't count. You're, you message is you don't count. You're, you message is you don't count. You're, you know, incel. You're you're this. You're know, incel. You're you're this. You're know, incel. You're you're this. You're that. You're you're just you don't that. You're you're just you don't that. You're you're just you don't matter, matter, matter, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And suddenly it's like, no, actually >> And suddenly it's like, no, actually >> And suddenly it's like, no, actually your life matters and you have a purpose your life matters and you have a purpose your life matters and you have a purpose in this life and God loves you and um in this life and God loves you and um in this life and God loves you and um you know, you're you're you know this you know, you're you're you know this you know, you're you're you know this hesitant to use the phrase because it's hesitant to use the phrase because it's hesitant to use the phrase because it's so loaded, biblical manhood. But there so loaded, biblical manhood. But there so loaded, biblical manhood. But there is a definition of what it means to be a is a definition of what it means to be a is a definition of what it means to be a man in the Bible. And you can man in the Bible. And you can man in the Bible. And you can overculturize that or you could have a overculturize that or you could have a overculturize that or you could have a theological understanding of no, God theological understanding of no, God theological understanding of no, God actually created you and he created you actually created you and he created you actually created you and he created you different and he created you for a different and he created you for a different and he created you for a reason and you want to step into that.

reason and you want to step into that. reason and you want to step into that. So any thoughts on that like uh bro So any thoughts on that like uh bro So any thoughts on that like uh bro culture or understanding of what it is culture or understanding of what it is culture or understanding of what it is to be a man and that can again be to be a man and that can again be to be a man and that can again be positive and it can be over the top and positive and it can be over the top and positive and it can be over the top and drive other people away. Well, I think drive other people away. Well, I think drive other people away. Well, I think we're all looking for places to belong we're all looking for places to belong we're all looking for places to belong and women find a lot more belonging, I and women find a lot more belonging, I and women find a lot more belonging, I think, in um in in uh their natural think, in um in in uh their natural think, in um in in uh their natural networks. Um particularly moms um networks. Um particularly moms um networks. Um particularly moms um because they have um you know, again, because they have um you know, again, because they have um you know, again, there's a lot of generalization, but there's a lot of generalization, but there's a lot of generalization, but there's a way in which they're dropping there's a way in which they're dropping there's a way in which they're dropping off kids. They're uh thinking about off kids. They're uh thinking about off kids. They're uh thinking about certain aspects of their of their work certain aspects of their of their work certain aspects of their of their work or of their household uh dynamics. And or of their household uh dynamics. And or of their household uh dynamics. And it's it's actually something we did a it's it's actually something we did a it's it's actually something we did a study for the Momco about. Um it's study for the Momco about. Um it's study for the Momco about. Um it's called a motherhood today. And so called a motherhood today. And so called a motherhood today. And so [clears throat] like moms don't come to [clears throat] like moms don't come to [clears throat] like moms don't come to the church as as much as they used to the church as as much as they used to the church as as much as they used to for content. They come for community. for content. They come for community. for content. They come for community. >> Um and even that there's downward >> Um and even that there's downward >> Um and even that there's downward pressure. So because moms find ways to pressure. So because moms find ways to pressure. So because moms find ways to come together even in social environ in come together even in social environ in come together even in social environ in in digital environments and other social in digital environments and other social in digital environments and other social environments.

environments. environments. >> Men don't have as many of those places >> Men don't have as many of those places >> Men don't have as many of those places to go. to go. to go. >> It's true. And so I think the church >> It's true. And so I think the church >> It's true. And so I think the church offers a kind of community and belonging offers a kind of community and belonging offers a kind of community and belonging uh because they're not men are are not uh because they're not men are are not uh because they're not men are are not quite as digitally oriented. They'll quite as digitally oriented. They'll quite as digitally oriented. They'll still use Facebook and things, but like still use Facebook and things, but like still use Facebook and things, but like you think about, you know, women are you think about, you know, women are you think about, you know, women are using Facebook, they're using Instagram, using Facebook, they're using Instagram, using Facebook, they're using Instagram, they're using these digital tools. they're using these digital tools. they're using these digital tools. They're staying connected. They're They're staying connected. They're They're staying connected. They're they're passing along, you know, best they're passing along, you know, best they're passing along, you know, best practices on how to bomb or how to, you practices on how to bomb or how to, you practices on how to bomb or how to, you know, h how to look your best, whatever. know, h how to look your best, whatever. know, h how to look your best, whatever. Men are just doing using technology for Men are just doing using technology for Men are just doing using technology for different reasons. They're not they're different reasons. They're not they're different reasons. They're not they're not they're not huddling together in so not they're not huddling together in so not they're not huddling together in so in digital environments in the same way. in digital environments in the same way. in digital environments in the same way. So the church offers a place for real So the church offers a place for real So the church offers a place for real community and women and men need community and women and men need community and women and men need community. It is one of the essential community. It is one of the essential community. It is one of the essential parts of what it means to be the church parts of what it means to be the church parts of what it means to be the church today that we actually come together today that we actually come together today that we actually come together with people that are very different than with people that are very different than with people that are very different than us. We're not homogenized by the us. We're not homogenized by the us. We're not homogenized by the algorithms bringing us the kind of thing algorithms bringing us the kind of thing algorithms bringing us the kind of thing that we actually think we we want um that we actually think we we want um that we actually think we we want um whereas the thing that we actually need. whereas the thing that we actually need. whereas the thing that we actually need. And I think the church has a place of And I think the church has a place of And I think the church has a place of bringing people together across these bringing people together across these bringing people together across these differences. And and it's a it's a differences. And and it's a it's a differences. And and it's a it's a critical spot. Like it is one of the, critical spot. Like it is one of the, critical spot. Like it is one of the, you know, the the unique aspects of you know, the the unique aspects of you know, the the unique aspects of being in the church is that we're we're being in the church is that we're we're being in the church is that we're we're we're no longer defined by all the ways we're no longer defined by all the ways we're no longer defined by all the ways that we're different or our identity that we're different or our identity that we're different or our identity politics or whatever, but we're defined politics or whatever, but we're defined politics or whatever, but we're defined as as sons and daughters of of God as as as as sons and daughters of of God as as as as sons and daughters of of God as as followers of Jesus. Mhm. I wonder and I followers of Jesus. Mhm. I wonder and I followers of Jesus. Mhm. I wonder and I mean we can we can spend one minute on mean we can we can spend one minute on mean we can we can spend one minute on this or 10 minutes on this but you know this or 10 minutes on this but you know this or 10 minutes on this but you know you've seen or what I've seen what I've you've seen or what I've seen what I've you've seen or what I've seen what I've seen is some churches really swing to seen is some churches really swing to seen is some churches really swing to the anti-woke movement like there was the anti-woke movement like there was the anti-woke movement like there was sort of the Biden era and then almost

sort of the Biden era and then almost sort of the Biden era and then almost overnight culture shifted hard right not overnight culture shifted hard right not overnight culture shifted hard right not everybody shifted hard right depends on everybody shifted hard right depends on everybody shifted hard right depends on the state depends on the city depends the state depends on the city depends the state depends on the city depends where you live but there was like I where you live but there was like I where you live but there was like I don't remember seeing a cultural shift don't remember seeing a cultural shift don't remember seeing a cultural shift this quick in my lifetime. this quick in my lifetime. this quick in my lifetime. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Usually an era takes 5 to 10 years. It's >> Usually an era takes 5 to 10 years. It's >> Usually an era takes 5 to 10 years. It's like, oh yeah, a decade ago we were like, oh yeah, a decade ago we were like, oh yeah, a decade ago we were talking about this, but now we're not talking about this, but now we're not talking about this, but now we're not talking about that anymore. talking about that anymore. talking about that anymore. >> And almost in a matter of months, >> And almost in a matter of months, >> And almost in a matter of months, America went from this is what we value. America went from this is what we value. America went from this is what we value. Look at the dismantling of DEI. Look at the dismantling of DEI. Look at the dismantling of DEI. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Over the last two years, for example, >> Over the last two years, for example, >> Over the last two years, for example, you know, it was like everyone's you know, it was like everyone's you know, it was like everyone's building this now we're all tearing it building this now we're all tearing it building this now we're all tearing it down. And um and as you see that with down. And um and as you see that with down. And um and as you see that with the conservatism of young men and I have the conservatism of young men and I have the conservatism of young men and I have concerns when a church becomes more concerns when a church becomes more concerns when a church becomes more political and ideological than political and ideological than political and ideological than theological. I'll just go on the record theological. I'll just go on the record theological. I'll just go on the record of saying that. But I wonder if that of saying that. But I wonder if that of saying that. But I wonder if that recounts accounts for at least a small recounts accounts for at least a small recounts accounts for at least a small percentage of the growth and percentage of the growth and percentage of the growth and attractiveness we're seeing in attractiveness we're seeing in attractiveness we're seeing in >> Yeah, I think that's that's a the >> Yeah, I think that's that's a the >> Yeah, I think that's that's a the question on the table, which I think question on the table, which I think question on the table, which I think politics has has been politics has has been politics has has been >> um probably a a major or minor driver >> um probably a a major or minor driver >> um probably a a major or minor driver for many men to come back and to think for many men to come back and to think for many men to come back and to think about faith in a new and fresh way. And about faith in a new and fresh way. And about faith in a new and fresh way. And that's part of what I'm saying. We that's part of what I'm saying. We that's part of what I'm saying. We should do a good honest assessment of should do a good honest assessment of should do a good honest assessment of where our church fits. What's our point where our church fits. What's our point where our church fits. What's our point of view towards how we disciple people?

of view towards how we disciple people? of view towards how we disciple people? a political theology. a political theology. a political theology. >> What are you being converted to? >> What are you being converted to? >> What are you being converted to? >> Correct. And and again, I'm trying to >> Correct. And and again, I'm trying to >> Correct. And and again, I'm trying to say that I think there is a a better and say that I think there is a a better and say that I think there is a a better and a good, better, best way to do that. Not a good, better, best way to do that. Not a good, better, best way to do that. Not that not that each church should follow that not that each church should follow that not that each church should follow David's point of view on that, but like David's point of view on that, but like David's point of view on that, but like there is there is a a probably a bad way there is there is a a probably a bad way there is there is a a probably a bad way to do that. There's probably a good way to do that. There's probably a good way to do that. There's probably a good way to do it. There's probably a better way to do it. There's probably a better way to do it. There's probably a better way to do it. There's probably a best way to to do it. There's probably a best way to to do it. There's probably a best way to do that depending on the the context and do that depending on the the context and do that depending on the the context and you know how God is using your church in you know how God is using your church in you know how God is using your church in a particular space. Um but all the a particular space. Um but all the a particular space. Um but all the categories are being redefined. categories are being redefined. categories are being redefined. Um, and and people need the church. This Um, and and people need the church. This Um, and and people need the church. This is this is the one of the central themes is this is the one of the central themes is this is the one of the central themes I'd love for listeners to to hear. It's I'd love for listeners to to hear. It's I'd love for listeners to to hear. It's been a a major conclusion for me over been a a major conclusion for me over been a a major conclusion for me over the last 3 or four years. The church the last 3 or four years. The church the last 3 or four years. The church needs to be a learning community under needs to be a learning community under needs to be a learning community under the authority of scripture to be on the authority of scripture to be on the authority of scripture to be on mission with Jesus. And a learning mission with Jesus. And a learning mission with Jesus. And a learning community is different than just a a community is different than just a a community is different than just a a preaching community or just a a preaching community or just a a preaching community or just a a convening community or a congre convening community or a congre convening community or a congre congregations are an essential part of congregations are an essential part of congregations are an essential part of being a a learning community. But being a a learning community. But being a a learning community. But podcasts are important, books are podcasts are important, books are podcasts are important, books are important, lived experiences, the important, lived experiences, the important, lived experiences, the orthopraxy orthopraxy orthopraxy and a learning community is is where we and a learning community is is where we and a learning community is is where we start to understand how do we live our start to understand how do we live our start to understand how do we live our faith out in politics? How do we live faith out in politics? How do we live faith out in politics? How do we live our faith out as moms or dads or as our faith out as moms or dads or as our faith out as moms or dads or as singles? Uh uh how do we live our faith singles? Uh uh how do we live our faith singles? Uh uh how do we live our faith out in our work and and if we're being out in our work and and if we're being out in our work and and if we're being honest 1.9 times a month is not honest 1.9 times a month is not honest 1.9 times a month is not sufficient to become a learning sufficient to become a learning sufficient to become a learning community. It's at least a good place to community. It's at least a good place to community. It's at least a good place to have a sampler auditory board of have a sampler auditory board of have a sampler auditory board of Christianity. But there's some there's Christianity. But there's some there's Christianity. But there's some there's some real important ways that we need to some real important ways that we need to some real important ways that we need to lean in. If people are think about this lean in. If people are think about this lean in. If people are think about this really interesting paradox, Carrie, that really interesting paradox, Carrie, that really interesting paradox, Carrie, that you know, for years people say, you

you know, for years people say, you you know, for years people say, you know, humans attention span is like a know, humans attention span is like a know, humans attention span is like a goldfish. You know, you're if you don't goldfish. You know, you're if you don't goldfish. You know, you're if you don't catch them, you're going to lose them. catch them, you're going to lose them. catch them, you're going to lose them. >> And you know, like even in in some of >> And you know, like even in in some of >> And you know, like even in in some of the coaching you guys give to preaching, the coaching you guys give to preaching, the coaching you guys give to preaching, like how how can you can be a great like how how can you can be a great like how how can you can be a great communicator on a stage? And you know, communicator on a stage? And you know, communicator on a stage? And you know, of course, you want to like you want to of course, you want to like you want to of course, you want to like you want to engage people engage people engage people >> engage them in the first couple minutes. >> engage them in the first couple minutes. >> engage them in the first couple minutes. >> Exactly. And that's good and right to >> Exactly. And that's good and right to >> Exactly. And that's good and right to say. It's also true that and and I I was say. It's also true that and and I I was say. It's also true that and and I I was I I will go on record and say that I I I will go on record and say that I I I will go on record and say that I think this notion there's a there was an think this notion there's a there was an think this notion there's a there was an old line that said it's it's a sin to old line that said it's it's a sin to old line that said it's it's a sin to bore a a a child or a teenager with the bore a a a child or a teenager with the bore a a a child or a teenager with the gospel. And I get it. But that was like gospel. And I get it. But that was like gospel. And I get it. But that was like from a communicator's workshop mindset from a communicator's workshop mindset from a communicator's workshop mindset where if you only where if you only where if you only >> if you can just get the hook, if you can >> if you can just get the hook, if you can >> if you can just get the hook, if you can just get them engaged, but I actually just get them engaged, but I actually just get them engaged, but I actually think boredom think boredom think boredom >> is a good thing. Like I'm not saying you >> is a good thing. Like I'm not saying you >> is a good thing. Like I'm not saying you should have a a boring sermon just should have a a boring sermon just should have a a boring sermon just because that's a like the strategy, but because that's a like the strategy, but because that's a like the strategy, but hang with me for just one second on hang with me for just one second on hang with me for just one second on this. this. this. >> Um why is Joe Rogan doing podcasts that >> Um why is Joe Rogan doing podcasts that >> Um why is Joe Rogan doing podcasts that go on for go on for go on for 90 minutes or whatever like long form 90 minutes or whatever like long form 90 minutes or whatever like long form conversations? Why in a society when conversations? Why in a society when conversations? Why in a society when everyone says shorter shorter shorter everyone says shorter shorter shorter everyone says shorter shorter shorter shorter shorter is long form popping up?

shorter shorter is long form popping up? shorter shorter is long form popping up? Because people have an appetite. When Because people have an appetite. When Because people have an appetite. When you suppress one part of a society, you you suppress one part of a society, you you suppress one part of a society, you see a blowback. I think that's actually see a blowback. I think that's actually see a blowback. I think that's actually part of what's happened politically. I part of what's happened politically. I part of what's happened politically. I think each each successive political um think each each successive political um think each each successive political um administration is like kind of like administration is like kind of like administration is like kind of like they're counterbalancing not to like a they're counterbalancing not to like a they're counterbalancing not to like a plum line of of of you know of center. plum line of of of you know of center. plum line of of of you know of center. They're kind of like well we're not as They're kind of like well we're not as They're kind of like well we're not as left as that. We're not as right as left as that. We're not as right as left as that. We're not as right as that. So, you know, let's see where this that. So, you know, let's see where this that. So, you know, let's see where this very right moment takes the church. I very right moment takes the church. I very right moment takes the church. I think it's going to be important for us think it's going to be important for us think it's going to be important for us not to end on one side or the other of not to end on one side or the other of not to end on one side or the other of the political aisle because there will the political aisle because there will the political aisle because there will be a pendulum swing of some kind. So be a pendulum swing of some kind. So be a pendulum swing of some kind. So this notion then of the church as a this notion then of the church as a this notion then of the church as a learning community to put that in our learning community to put that in our learning community to put that in our listeners head is preaching is essential listeners head is preaching is essential listeners head is preaching is essential to doing that. to doing that. to doing that. >> Recommending good podcast is essential >> Recommending good podcast is essential >> Recommending good podcast is essential to that. to that. to that. >> Recommending good books, helping people >> Recommending good books, helping people >> Recommending good books, helping people figure out how would you live this out. figure out how would you live this out. figure out how would you live this out. You don't go um to to piano lessons just You don't go um to to piano lessons just You don't go um to to piano lessons just to watch your piano instructor play the to watch your piano instructor play the to watch your piano instructor play the piano. you have to learn how to play the piano. you have to learn how to play the piano. you have to learn how to play the piano yourself. And and and so when I piano yourself. And and and so when I piano yourself. And and and so when I talk about the church as a learning talk about the church as a learning talk about the church as a learning community, I'm I'm asking us to consider community, I'm I'm asking us to consider community, I'm I'm asking us to consider that um people want to learn and need to that um people want to learn and need to that um people want to learn and need to learn to play their part in the great learn to play their part in the great learn to play their part in the great symphony of the faith of following symphony of the faith of following symphony of the faith of following Jesus. It's not a a consumer sport. It Jesus. It's not a a consumer sport. It Jesus. It's not a a consumer sport. It is a participant activity. And so I is a participant activity. And so I is a participant activity. And so I think that is um you know, one of the think that is um you know, one of the think that is um you know, one of the ways for us to think about this moment.

ways for us to think about this moment. ways for us to think about this moment. Men are looking for how would I live my Men are looking for how would I live my Men are looking for how would I live my faith out not just by hearing the expert faith out not just by hearing the expert faith out not just by hearing the expert talk about that but by actually putting talk about that but by actually putting talk about that but by actually putting all this into practice. Women are coming all this into practice. Women are coming all this into practice. Women are coming to the church. Um you know they tell us to the church. Um you know they tell us to the church. Um you know they tell us number six on the list of the reasons number six on the list of the reasons number six on the list of the reasons they come is preaching and teaching. they come is preaching and teaching. they come is preaching and teaching. They They They >> number six. What's number one? >> number six. What's number one? >> number six. What's number one? >> Uh experiencing God. >> Uh experiencing God. >> Uh experiencing God. >> Interesting. That plays into another >> Interesting. That plays into another >> Interesting. That plays into another trend. We'll talk about that. trend. We'll talk about that. trend. We'll talk about that. >> And number two is community. So they're >> And number two is community. So they're >> And number two is community. So they're not coming for content primarily. not coming for content primarily. not coming for content primarily. They're coming for community and They're coming for community and They're coming for community and experiencing God. And uh so we have a experiencing God. And uh so we have a experiencing God. And uh so we have a huge opportunity to become a learning huge opportunity to become a learning huge opportunity to become a learning community. community. community. >> Boy, there's a lot here. So on length of >> Boy, there's a lot here. So on length of >> Boy, there's a lot here. So on length of podcast, it's fascinating. We look at podcast, it's fascinating. We look at podcast, it's fascinating. We look at the analytics. We're almost 800 episodes the analytics. We're almost 800 episodes the analytics. We're almost 800 episodes in on the show. And what's fascinating in on the show. And what's fascinating in on the show. And what's fascinating to me, I do some solo episodes that are to me, I do some solo episodes that are to me, I do some solo episodes that are like anywhere from 25 to 35 minutes. And like anywhere from 25 to 35 minutes. And like anywhere from 25 to 35 minutes. And then we do some 1-hour interviews, we do then we do some 1-hour interviews, we do then we do some 1-hour interviews, we do some 2-hour interviews. I think the some 2-hour interviews. I think the some 2-hour interviews. I think the longest two and a half or three hours. longest two and a half or three hours. longest two and a half or three hours. You know what's fascinating? The You know what's fascinating? The You know what's fascinating? The engagement score is almost the same for engagement score is almost the same for engagement score is almost the same for all of the episodes. In other words, if all of the episodes. In other words, if all of the episodes. In other words, if it's an hour and a half, people listen it's an hour and a half, people listen it's an hour and a half, people listen just as long as they do when it's a half just as long as they do when it's a half just as long as they do when it's a half hour.

hour. hour. >> So, there's this paradox where people >> So, there's this paradox where people >> So, there's this paradox where people are listening to Rogan or Sean Ryan who are listening to Rogan or Sean Ryan who are listening to Rogan or Sean Ryan who will sometimes heard guests on his show. will sometimes heard guests on his show. will sometimes heard guests on his show. It's like it's an all day. You just sit It's like it's an all day. You just sit It's like it's an all day. You just sit down for six hours and talk to him down for six hours and talk to him down for six hours and talk to him [clears throat] and three hours, four [clears throat] and three hours, four [clears throat] and three hours, four hours get broadcast, that kind of thing. hours get broadcast, that kind of thing. hours get broadcast, that kind of thing. So, you know, it's it's this paradoxical So, you know, it's it's this paradoxical So, you know, it's it's this paradoxical thing where, you know, your real had thing where, you know, your real had thing where, you know, your real had better be interesting because most better be interesting because most better be interesting because most people only watch the first 5 seconds of people only watch the first 5 seconds of people only watch the first 5 seconds of a real and then they're on to something a real and then they're on to something a real and then they're on to something else. else. else. >> But they will listen to a 4-hour podcast >> But they will listen to a 4-hour podcast >> But they will listen to a 4-hour podcast >> and both both can be true >> and both both can be true >> and both both can be true >> and both are true at the same time. It's >> and both are true at the same time. It's >> and both are true at the same time. It's where we started, right? So, when you where we started, right? So, when you where we started, right? So, when you think about as a church, yeah, your think about as a church, yeah, your think about as a church, yeah, your sermon content and this is what I wrote sermon content and this is what I wrote sermon content and this is what I wrote about in one of the other trends. That's about in one of the other trends. That's about in one of the other trends. That's not the main reason why people are there not the main reason why people are there not the main reason why people are there because even if you don't stream, they because even if you don't stream, they because even if you don't stream, they can find great messages from anybody can find great messages from anybody can find great messages from anybody anywhere for free. They can find all anywhere for free. They can find all anywhere for free. They can find all kinds of Christian content on the kinds of Christian content on the kinds of Christian content on the internet on social free of charge. So, internet on social free of charge. So, internet on social free of charge. So, you know, I think you have to move to an you know, I think you have to move to an you know, I think you have to move to an in room experience, the encounter and in room experience, the encounter and in room experience, the encounter and experience of God experience of God experience of God >> more than that. But so many churches are >> more than that. But so many churches are >> more than that. But so many churches are not being innovative right now. And not being innovative right now. And not being innovative right now. And that's why one of the trends is that's why one of the trends is that's why one of the trends is evangelism is going direct. Yeah. People evangelism is going direct. Yeah. People evangelism is going direct. Yeah. People are going not just podcasters like me, are going not just podcasters like me, are going not just podcasters like me, but like people are going straight to but like people are going straight to but like people are going straight to YouTube. People are going straight to YouTube. People are going straight to YouTube. People are going straight to reals and preaching the gospel at their reals and preaching the gospel at their reals and preaching the gospel at their followers on the street, etc. And most followers on the street, etc. And most followers on the street, etc. And most pastors, they're not doing that. We all pastors, they're not doing that. We all pastors, they're not doing that. We all did it for 10 minutes during COVID did it for 10 minutes during COVID did it for 10 minutes during COVID during lockdown. Yeah.

during lockdown. Yeah. during lockdown. Yeah. >> All right, I'm going to pray for you. >> All right, I'm going to pray for you. >> All right, I'm going to pray for you. Went direct to camera, but mostly, you Went direct to camera, but mostly, you Went direct to camera, but mostly, you know, the clips are just of Sunday's know, the clips are just of Sunday's know, the clips are just of Sunday's message and then, hey, Sunday 911. Don't message and then, hey, Sunday 911. Don't message and then, hey, Sunday 911. Don't miss it. We'll see you there. Right. I miss it. We'll see you there. Right. I miss it. We'll see you there. Right. I think we can be a lot more um think we can be a lot more um think we can be a lot more um innovative. Adam Messa, I don't know innovative. Adam Messa, I don't know innovative. Adam Messa, I don't know whether you know Adam from Patriot whether you know Adam from Patriot whether you know Adam from Patriot Church in LA in Rancho Cukamongo, if I Church in LA in Rancho Cukamongo, if I Church in LA in Rancho Cukamongo, if I got that right. Adam's a young NextGen got that right. Adam's a young NextGen got that right. Adam's a young NextGen pastor. I think he's like 34. He does pastor. I think he's like 34. He does pastor. I think he's like 34. He does three podcasts. There's the church three podcasts. There's the church three podcasts. There's the church podcast of a sermon, but then he does podcast of a sermon, but then he does podcast of a sermon, but then he does one where he's just talking about issues one where he's just talking about issues one where he's just talking about issues of the day. He does one with his wife. of the day. He does one with his wife. of the day. He does one with his wife. And those are great opportunities to And those are great opportunities to And those are great opportunities to introduce people to the gospel. Now, introduce people to the gospel. Now, introduce people to the gospel. Now, he's not specifically saying this is a he's not specifically saying this is a he's not specifically saying this is a church podcast, [clears throat] church podcast, [clears throat] church podcast, [clears throat] >> but the number of people who end up at >> but the number of people who end up at >> but the number of people who end up at Patriot Church Patriot Church Patriot Church >> because they listen to one of his >> because they listen to one of his >> because they listen to one of his podcasts, it's quite interesting. So, I podcasts, it's quite interesting. So, I podcasts, it's quite interesting. So, I think we could get a lot more innovative think we could get a lot more innovative think we could get a lot more innovative in that field next year. in that field next year. in that field next year. >> 100% agree. And that would be a great >> 100% agree. And that would be a great >> 100% agree. And that would be a great example of uh the church as a learning example of uh the church as a learning example of uh the church as a learning community um where we're using these community um where we're using these community um where we're using these different tools. I mean I think different tools. I mean I think different tools. I mean I think listen we live in in the west uh the listen we live in in the west uh the listen we live in in the west uh the culture of the west where the long culture of the west where the long culture of the west where the long shadow of the of the cross of shadow of the of the cross of shadow of the of the cross of Christianity is is um undeniable and so Christianity is is um undeniable and so Christianity is is um undeniable and so we don't even understand how much our we don't even understand how much our we don't even understand how much our sense of what it means to learn to be sense of what it means to learn to be sense of what it means to learn to be active healthcare education social active healthcare education social active healthcare education social services all have come really from a services all have come really from a services all have come really from a Christian uh uh you know a a Christian Christian uh uh you know a a Christian Christian uh uh you know a a Christian idea even public education that everyone idea even public education that everyone idea even public education that everyone has a right to learn is a is a has a right to learn is a is a has a right to learn is a is a fundamentally Christian concept um in in

fundamentally Christian concept um in in fundamentally Christian concept um in in its expression in the in the US. Um and its expression in the in the US. Um and its expression in the in the US. Um and and so what I think your story tells us and so what I think your story tells us and so what I think your story tells us is that people are looking for the is that people are looking for the is that people are looking for the church to be, you know, more than just a church to be, you know, more than just a church to be, you know, more than just a place on Sunday. They're looking for a place on Sunday. They're looking for a place on Sunday. They're looking for a kind of environment in which to be kind of environment in which to be kind of environment in which to be formed. And uh I think there's a lot of formed. And uh I think there's a lot of formed. And uh I think there's a lot of really fun experiments to be to be to be really fun experiments to be to be to be really fun experiments to be to be to be run in that manner. I saw a friend uh run in that manner. I saw a friend uh run in that manner. I saw a friend uh Gary Jones at Vintage Church. Um I I Gary Jones at Vintage Church. Um I I Gary Jones at Vintage Church. Um I I happen to get an email from from them. happen to get an email from from them. happen to get an email from from them. Uh some of my friends attend there. Um Uh some of my friends attend there. Um Uh some of my friends attend there. Um and they had um they they called alpha and they had um they they called alpha and they had um they they called alpha the program the evangelism program 101 the program the evangelism program 101 the program the evangelism program 101 and then they had rooted as 2011 and and then they had rooted as 2011 and and then they had rooted as 2011 and they had a third program I can't they had a third program I can't they had a third program I can't remember what it was called 301 and I I remember what it was called 301 and I I remember what it was called 301 and I I actually love that notion of helping actually love that notion of helping actually love that notion of helping people to almost imagine a kind of people to almost imagine a kind of people to almost imagine a kind of curricular approach to helping to teach curricular approach to helping to teach curricular approach to helping to teach the teach the faith. So alpha the teach the faith. So alpha the teach the faith. So alpha >> alpha is 101 rooted is 2011 here's your >> alpha is 101 rooted is 2011 here's your >> alpha is 101 rooted is 2011 here's your 301. It might have been like a mental 301. It might have been like a mental 301. It might have been like a mental health or whatever. I can't remember. health or whatever. I can't remember. health or whatever. I can't remember. But um that notion of like so so think But um that notion of like so so think But um that notion of like so so think about it like about it like about it like um one last metaphor on this is um one last metaphor on this is um one last metaphor on this is preaching is sort of like your daily preaching is sort of like your daily preaching is sort of like your daily bread. Um so everyone needs daily bread bread. Um so everyone needs daily bread bread. Um so everyone needs daily bread and when you preach Jesus walks among us and when you preach Jesus walks among us and when you preach Jesus walks among us and and we are we are proclaiming Christ and and we are we are proclaiming Christ and and we are we are proclaiming Christ and Christ crucified the resurrect. We and Christ crucified the resurrect. We and Christ crucified the resurrect. We are resurrection people and that is our are resurrection people and that is our are resurrection people and that is our daily bread. And so preaching has never daily bread. And so preaching has never daily bread. And so preaching has never been more important. It will always be been more important. It will always be been more important. It will always be important because it's our daily bread.

important because it's our daily bread. important because it's our daily bread. At the same time, um, nobody is going to At the same time, um, nobody is going to At the same time, um, nobody is going to be especially fit if all you do is um, be especially fit if all you do is um, be especially fit if all you do is um, just eat. You have to also work out. You just eat. You have to also work out. You just eat. You have to also work out. You have to have a regimen. You have to have have to have a regimen. You have to have have to have a regimen. You have to have a a schedule. You have to have a reps. a a schedule. You have to have a reps. a a schedule. You have to have a reps. You have to So, you know, no one would You have to So, you know, no one would You have to So, you know, no one would get a a college degree or learn to play get a a college degree or learn to play get a a college degree or learn to play the piano by just simply absorbing a the piano by just simply absorbing a the piano by just simply absorbing a daily nutrient. You have to actually daily nutrient. You have to actually daily nutrient. You have to actually exercise. And so, it's a both end. So exercise. And so, it's a both end. So exercise. And so, it's a both end. So I'm asking church leaders, I'm begging I'm asking church leaders, I'm begging I'm asking church leaders, I'm begging you based on so much of our work over you based on so much of our work over you based on so much of our work over the last years, um when you look at the last years, um when you look at the last years, um when you look at young people, teenagers, they are ready young people, teenagers, they are ready young people, teenagers, they are ready to learn. They are ready to grow. If to learn. They are ready to grow. If to learn. They are ready to grow. If your youth ministry is just simply like your youth ministry is just simply like your youth ministry is just simply like giving them daily bread, you're not giving them daily bread, you're not giving them daily bread, you're not giving them the regimen to practice giving them the regimen to practice giving them the regimen to practice their faith. Um, friend John Dixon, an their faith. Um, friend John Dixon, an their faith. Um, friend John Dixon, an Australian, talks about the early church Australian, talks about the early church Australian, talks about the early church would have been mistaken today if would have been mistaken today if would have been mistaken today if someone went back in a in a time someone went back in a in a time someone went back in a in a time capsule. And they would, he said the capsule. And they would, he said the capsule. And they would, he said the early church would have looked more like early church would have looked more like early church would have looked more like a philosophical school cuz people a philosophical school cuz people a philosophical school cuz people learned hundreds of hours of of a kind learned hundreds of hours of of a kind learned hundreds of hours of of a kind of rigorous approach to understanding of rigorous approach to understanding of rigorous approach to understanding the the prophets and the Old Testament the the prophets and the Old Testament the the prophets and the Old Testament and the life and life and teachings of and the life and life and teachings of and the life and life and teachings of Jesus. Um, uh, even before they were Jesus. Um, uh, even before they were Jesus. Um, uh, even before they were baptized, John Dixon, who's a church baptized, John Dixon, who's a church baptized, John Dixon, who's a church historian, um, talks a lot about this.

historian, um, talks a lot about this. historian, um, talks a lot about this. So what would it look like if your So what would it look like if your So what would it look like if your church looked more like a philosophical church looked more like a philosophical church looked more like a philosophical school than the way we might understand school than the way we might understand school than the way we might understand um a congregational model of today like um a congregational model of today like um a congregational model of today like you know just a a MC church um it's not you know just a a MC church um it's not you know just a a MC church um it's not you're not a franchise of the gospel you you're not a franchise of the gospel you you're not a franchise of the gospel you are an essential embodiment of this are an essential embodiment of this are an essential embodiment of this living community that is a learning living community that is a learning living community that is a learning community of daily bread and of exercise community of daily bread and of exercise community of daily bread and of exercise of practices of a a philosophy of life a of practices of a a philosophy of life a of practices of a a philosophy of life a way of seeing the world that that way of seeing the world that that way of seeing the world that that changes who you are and and this is the changes who you are and and this is the changes who you are and and this is the challenge for our spiritually open challenge for our spiritually open challenge for our spiritually open moment is we have to actually become moment is we have to actually become moment is we have to actually become those kinds of churches. Otherwise, in those kinds of churches. Otherwise, in those kinds of churches. Otherwise, in 10 years time, Gen Zers who are now open 10 years time, Gen Zers who are now open 10 years time, Gen Zers who are now open to Jesus will say, "I tried that church to Jesus will say, "I tried that church to Jesus will say, "I tried that church out. I tried the thing out." out. I tried the thing out." out. I tried the thing out." >> And it just it was like 1.9 times a >> And it just it was like 1.9 times a >> And it just it was like 1.9 times a month is not enough to be be formed in month is not enough to be be formed in month is not enough to be be formed in the way of Jesus, even as good news as the way of Jesus, even as good news as the way of Jesus, even as good news as that is. that is. that is. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Subsplash. When doing ministry feels Subsplash. When doing ministry feels Subsplash. When doing ministry feels harder or more complicated than it harder or more complicated than it harder or more complicated than it should, there's likely one culprit. should, there's likely one culprit. should, there's likely one culprit. Scattered systems. One software Scattered systems. One software Scattered systems. One software forgiving, another for your app, forgiving, another for your app, forgiving, another for your app, different dashboards for your website, different dashboards for your website, different dashboards for your website, streaming groups, messages, it can all streaming groups, messages, it can all streaming groups, messages, it can all add up fast. And every extra tool adds add up fast. And every extra tool adds add up fast. And every extra tool adds friction for your team, right? Your friction for your team, right? Your friction for your team, right? Your volunteers, and the very people you're volunteers, and the very people you're volunteers, and the very people you're trying to reach. Subsplash brings trying to reach. Subsplash brings trying to reach. Subsplash brings everything together. Your website, your everything together. Your website, your everything together. Your website, your mobile app, giving, media, live mobile app, giving, media, live mobile app, giving, media, live streaming, church management, messaging, streaming, church management, messaging, streaming, church management, messaging, all working together on one platform all working together on one platform all working together on one platform designed for churches. That means less designed for churches. That means less designed for churches. That means less confusion, fewer tech headaches, and far

confusion, fewer tech headaches, and far confusion, fewer tech headaches, and far more time for doing what actually more time for doing what actually more time for doing what actually matters. Making disciples, building matters. Making disciples, building matters. Making disciples, building community, and leading your church with community, and leading your church with community, and leading your church with clarity. 2026 is the year to trade clarity. 2026 is the year to trade clarity. 2026 is the year to trade scattered software for a seamless scattered software for a seamless scattered software for a seamless solution. Simplify your church's tech solution. Simplify your church's tech solution. Simplify your church's tech stack, save time, and start multiplying stack, save time, and start multiplying stack, save time, and start multiplying your kingdom impact. Don't wait and get your kingdom impact. Don't wait and get your kingdom impact. Don't wait and get started today. Just head to started today. Just head to started today. Just head to subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry today and save $500 when you sign up. today and save $500 when you sign up. today and save $500 when you sign up. That's subsplash.comcari. You know what you're saying about the You know what you're saying about the philosophical society. It really philosophical society. It really philosophical society. It really resonates and I don't have data but in resonates and I don't have data but in resonates and I don't have data but in the Gen Z men and I I tend to know you the Gen Z men and I I tend to know you the Gen Z men and I I tend to know you know I tend to hang out with the people know I tend to hang out with the people know I tend to hang out with the people who have some kind of social media who have some kind of social media who have some kind of social media platform that kind of thing but in that platform that kind of thing but in that platform that kind of thing but in that generation generation generation I am seeing a deep hunger. I want to I am seeing a deep hunger. I want to I am seeing a deep hunger. I want to know more about Jesus. I want to know know more about Jesus. I want to know know more about Jesus. I want to know about the historical background to the about the historical background to the about the historical background to the prophets. I want to know more about the prophets. I want to know more about the prophets. I want to know more about the first century church. There is that first century church. There is that first century church. There is that curiosity and hunger rather than how do curiosity and hunger rather than how do curiosity and hunger rather than how do I just get more people in on Sunday I just get more people in on Sunday I just get more people in on Sunday morning.

morning. morning. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Um I'll give you a tiny preview of >> Um I'll give you a tiny preview of >> Um I'll give you a tiny preview of something that's just blowing my mind. something that's just blowing my mind. something that's just blowing my mind. It's literally just about a week old. So It's literally just about a week old. So It's literally just about a week old. So this we might talk about this in um this we might talk about this in um this we might talk about this in um another another episode down the track, another another episode down the track, another another episode down the track, but just here's a little preview. but just here's a little preview. but just here's a little preview. Um we asked a question [clears throat] Um we asked a question [clears throat] Um we asked a question [clears throat] um give you two parts. The first the um give you two parts. The first the um give you two parts. The first the first thing is we asked the question um first thing is we asked the question um first thing is we asked the question um I am open to Jesus but do not consider I am open to Jesus but do not consider I am open to Jesus but do not consider myself a Christian today. myself a Christian today. myself a Christian today. 48% of all Gen Zers say yes to that. 48% of all Gen Zers say yes to that. 48% of all Gen Zers say yes to that. 44% of millennials say yes to that. I'm 44% of millennials say yes to that. I'm 44% of millennials say yes to that. I'm open to Jesus but do not consider myself open to Jesus but do not consider myself open to Jesus but do not consider myself a Christian today. a Christian today. a Christian today. Now we we talked about this um a few Now we we talked about this um a few Now we we talked about this um a few minutes ago like what's the why? I mean minutes ago like what's the why? I mean minutes ago like what's the why? I mean the why is that Jesus is compelling in the why is that Jesus is compelling in the why is that Jesus is compelling in every society at all time but especially every society at all time but especially every society at all time but especially now people want to understand the story now people want to understand the story now people want to understand the story of Jesus. That is a mind-blowing of Jesus. That is a mind-blowing of Jesus. That is a mind-blowing statistic. It's only about one in every statistic. It's only about one in every statistic. It's only about one in every 10 boomers and elders who say that is 10 boomers and elders who say that is 10 boomers and elders who say that is true of them. There's a much more clear true of them. There's a much more clear true of them. There's a much more clear demarcation. If you're a Jesus follower, demarcation. If you're a Jesus follower, demarcation. If you're a Jesus follower, you're a Christian. But this generation you're a Christian. But this generation you're a Christian. But this generation is saying, you know, you heard of like is saying, you know, you heard of like is saying, you know, you heard of like spiritual but not religious. This spiritual but not religious. This spiritual but not religious. This generation is raising the question, generation is raising the question, generation is raising the question, are you a Jesus follower but not are you a Jesus follower but not are you a Jesus follower but not Christian? Now, I'm not I'm not saying Christian? Now, I'm not I'm not saying Christian? Now, I'm not I'm not saying we should divorce being a follower of we should divorce being a follower of we should divorce being a follower of Jesus from the term Christian.

Jesus from the term Christian. Jesus from the term Christian. >> But this generation is is, you know, >> But this generation is is, you know, >> But this generation is is, you know, friend Dan Campbell wrote the book um friend Dan Campbell wrote the book um friend Dan Campbell wrote the book um they love Jesus but not the church. You they love Jesus but not the church. You they love Jesus but not the church. You could almost say it's like they love could almost say it's like they love could almost say it's like they love Jesus but not the label Christian. Jesus but not the label Christian. Jesus but not the label Christian. >> And so we have to grapple with that. >> And so we have to grapple with that. >> And so we have to grapple with that. This is not necessarily good news, but This is not necessarily good news, but This is not necessarily good news, but it represents a huge opportunity for us it represents a huge opportunity for us it represents a huge opportunity for us to understand and take people on this to understand and take people on this to understand and take people on this incredible journey with Jesus. incredible journey with Jesus. incredible journey with Jesus. >> Well, and there was an era where I feel >> Well, and there was an era where I feel >> Well, and there was an era where I feel like a lot of people would have said, like a lot of people would have said, like a lot of people would have said, "No, I'm not open to Jesus." Because it "No, I'm not open to Jesus." Because it "No, I'm not open to Jesus." Because it was synonymous with the church. was synonymous with the church. was synonymous with the church. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And I think, you know, a lot of people >> And I think, you know, a lot of people >> And I think, you know, a lot of people would say, "Is America post-Christian?" would say, "Is America post-Christian?" would say, "Is America post-Christian?" Yes. But we're almost getting to the Yes. But we're almost getting to the Yes. But we're almost getting to the post-Christian, which is a little bit post-Christian, which is a little bit post-Christian, which is a little bit pre-Christian, right? Maybe grandpa pre-Christian, right? Maybe grandpa pre-Christian, right? Maybe grandpa didn't go to church and didn't mom and didn't go to church and didn't mom and didn't go to church and didn't mom and dad didn't go to church. And so there's dad didn't go to church. And so there's dad didn't go to church. And so there's not the the baggage associated with it not the the baggage associated with it not the the baggage associated with it that a whole generation that grew up in that a whole generation that grew up in that a whole generation that grew up in church perhaps had. Which makes it church perhaps had. Which makes it church perhaps had. Which makes it interesting. I want to pivot a little interesting. I want to pivot a little interesting. I want to pivot a little bit. You were saying, you know, women bit. You were saying, you know, women bit. You were saying, you know, women primarily go to church for an experience primarily go to church for an experience primarily go to church for an experience of God. One of the things that I've of God. One of the things that I've of God. One of the things that I've really been thinking about a lot and I'm really been thinking about a lot and I'm really been thinking about a lot and I'm trying to get language around it. It's trying to get language around it. It's trying to get language around it. It's in the church trends report, but I don't in the church trends report, but I don't in the church trends report, but I don't know that language is is quite there know that language is is quite there know that language is is quite there yet. But like we're six years now on the yet. But like we're six years now on the yet. But like we're six years now on the other side of COVID where it was like other side of COVID where it was like other side of COVID where it was like 30% of churches were online to like 30% of churches were online to like 30% of churches were online to like 99.9% of churches are online. And some 99.9% of churches are online. And some 99.9% of churches are online. And some have dialed back, but the vast majority have dialed back, but the vast majority have dialed back, but the vast majority of churches have a meaningful internet of churches have a meaningful internet of churches have a meaningful internet presence at this point.

presence at this point. presence at this point. >> Which raises now the question that this >> Which raises now the question that this >> Which raises now the question that this isn't an emergency thing. It hasn't been isn't an emergency thing. It hasn't been isn't an emergency thing. It hasn't been for years. It raises the question, what for years. It raises the question, what for years. It raises the question, what is the difference between what happens is the difference between what happens is the difference between what happens online and what happens in person? What online and what happens in person? What online and what happens in person? What happens in the room? What happens if happens in the room? What happens if happens in the room? What happens if you're watching from home? And we've you're watching from home? And we've you're watching from home? And we've seen a lot of church attendance return. seen a lot of church attendance return. seen a lot of church attendance return. That's amazing. I'm a big fan of online That's amazing. I'm a big fan of online That's amazing. I'm a big fan of online because everyone you want to reach is because everyone you want to reach is because everyone you want to reach is online. Those 48% of Gen Z and 44% of online. Those 48% of Gen Z and 44% of online. Those 48% of Gen Z and 44% of millennials, guess what? They're all on millennials, guess what? They're all on millennials, guess what? They're all on the internet. Yeah. the internet. Yeah. the internet. Yeah. >> So, you have a chance to reach them. >> So, you have a chance to reach them. >> So, you have a chance to reach them. >> But is there something different? And >> But is there something different? And >> But is there something different? And I'm increasingly thinking, and it's a I'm increasingly thinking, and it's a I'm increasingly thinking, and it's a tonal shift. I've I've I've described tonal shift. I've I've I've described tonal shift. I've I've I've described this. I've had conversations with this. I've had conversations with this. I've had conversations with pastors and they're like, "Well, I need pastors and they're like, "Well, I need pastors and they're like, "Well, I need more clarity on this." I'm like, "I more clarity on this." I'm like, "I more clarity on this." I'm like, "I think it's a tonal shift. It's like a think it's a tonal shift. It's like a think it's a tonal shift. It's like a sensitivity sensitivity sensitivity to what is happening in the room rather to what is happening in the room rather to what is happening in the room rather than just me preaching the message and than just me preaching the message and than just me preaching the message and getting the content out. getting the content out. getting the content out. What is going on in David's life? What is going on in David's life? What is going on in David's life? David's sitting in the front row today. David's sitting in the front row today. David's sitting in the front row today. >> You know what what do I see? What do I >> You know what what do I see? What do I >> You know what what do I see? What do I notice? notice? notice? >> And to create space, if you see what and >> And to create space, if you see what and >> And to create space, if you see what and Jenny Allen and JPlude have talked about Jenny Allen and JPlude have talked about Jenny Allen and JPlude have talked about this on the show before, you know, um this on the show before, you know, um this on the show before, you know, um going to college campuses and just going to college campuses and just going to college campuses and just seeing weeping and confessing of sins, seeing weeping and confessing of sins, seeing weeping and confessing of sins, there's something happening in the room.

there's something happening in the room. there's something happening in the room. They're not just taking notes and going They're not just taking notes and going They're not just taking notes and going home. I think there needs to be more of home. I think there needs to be more of home. I think there needs to be more of that in person. And you can't manipulate that in person. And you can't manipulate that in person. And you can't manipulate that, but you can't evoke that. You can that, but you can't evoke that. You can that, but you can't evoke that. You can prepare for that. You can open yourself prepare for that. You can open yourself prepare for that. You can open yourself to that. Any thoughts on um the to that. Any thoughts on um the to that. Any thoughts on um the difference between what happens in the difference between what happens in the difference between what happens in the room when someone shows up and what you room when someone shows up and what you room when someone shows up and what you might pick up online? might pick up online? might pick up online? >> Well, I there's so many so many >> Well, I there's so many so many >> Well, I there's so many so many thoughts. My brain is going a lot of thoughts. My brain is going a lot of thoughts. My brain is going a lot of different directions. one um you know different directions. one um you know different directions. one um you know the the the distinction between online the the the distinction between online the the the distinction between online and in person for younger generations is and in person for younger generations is and in person for younger generations is is more porous. Uh so they're is more porous. Uh so they're is more porous. Uh so they're experiencing things online that are very experiencing things online that are very experiencing things online that are very meaningful to them. meaningful to them. meaningful to them. >> Um and they're sometimes in rooms where >> Um and they're sometimes in rooms where >> Um and they're sometimes in rooms where they're distracted and they're not they're distracted and they're not they're distracted and they're not paying attention. So that you know like paying attention. So that you know like paying attention. So that you know like there there can be equal equal amounts there there can be equal equal amounts there there can be equal equal amounts of transformation that happen either of transformation that happen either of transformation that happen either way. way. way. >> Um at the same time you know you're >> Um at the same time you know you're >> Um at the same time you know you're seeing a lot of the trends where young seeing a lot of the trends where young seeing a lot of the trends where young people are actually uh deleting apps. people are actually uh deleting apps. people are actually uh deleting apps. They're um they're taking, you know, They're um they're taking, you know, They're um they're taking, you know, like like a delete day and they all go like like a delete day and they all go like like a delete day and they all go to a park and they're like deleting to a park and they're like deleting to a park and they're like deleting deleting social media apps. And so deleting social media apps. And so deleting social media apps. And so >> I had coffee with like a 32-year-old >> I had coffee with like a 32-year-old >> I had coffee with like a 32-year-old before coming here and he's like, "Look, before coming here and he's like, "Look, before coming here and he's like, "Look, my iPhone's black and white."

my iPhone's black and white." my iPhone's black and white." >> Like this is so good for me and I' I've >> Like this is so good for me and I' I've >> Like this is so good for me and I' I've deleted Instagram. deleted Instagram. deleted Instagram. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think there is a real >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think there is a real >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think there is a real kind of counter trend um for something. kind of counter trend um for something. kind of counter trend um for something. Now again, don't get me wrong, like we Now again, don't get me wrong, like we Now again, don't get me wrong, like we are living in the world defined by are living in the world defined by are living in the world defined by social media, defined by these social media, defined by these social media, defined by these technology companies. It is it is as technology companies. It is it is as technology companies. It is it is as I've described digital Babylon and we I've described digital Babylon and we I've described digital Babylon and we are living in that now even if you see are living in that now even if you see are living in that now even if you see little outposts of resistance but um the little outposts of resistance but um the little outposts of resistance but um the the main idea is I do think that that the main idea is I do think that that the main idea is I do think that that one of those forms of resistance will be one of those forms of resistance will be one of those forms of resistance will be that more of an analog reality people that more of an analog reality people that more of an analog reality people want and especially with AI taking jobs want and especially with AI taking jobs want and especially with AI taking jobs um I think there's a real need for us to um I think there's a real need for us to um I think there's a real need for us to develop a kind of um a theory of play develop a kind of um a theory of play develop a kind of um a theory of play and of re-enchantment and of of working and of re-enchantment and of of working and of re-enchantment and of of working with our hands and and you know enjoying with our hands and and you know enjoying with our hands and and you know enjoying each other's company and just the slower each other's company and just the slower each other's company and just the slower or pace of life. Americans are defined or pace of life. Americans are defined or pace of life. Americans are defined by this, you know, enormity of of uh the by this, you know, enormity of of uh the by this, you know, enormity of of uh the pace of life. Um a friend of mine was pace of life. Um a friend of mine was pace of life. Um a friend of mine was making um he was talking about his he making um he was talking about his he making um he was talking about his he ran a pretzel company in the UK. He was ran a pretzel company in the UK. He was ran a pretzel company in the UK. He was American, but he went for four years in American, but he went for four years in American, but he went for four years in the UK. He's like, "We realized we the UK. He's like, "We realized we the UK. He's like, "We realized we couldn't build uh the pretzel company as couldn't build uh the pretzel company as couldn't build uh the pretzel company as as successfully in the UK as we did in as successfully in the UK as we did in as successfully in the UK as we did in the US because people don't like to the US because people don't like to the US because people don't like to stand and eat in the UK, whereas in the stand and eat in the UK, whereas in the stand and eat in the UK, whereas in the US, people can just scarf down a a hot US, people can just scarf down a a hot US, people can just scarf down a a hot pretzel [laughter] pretzel [laughter] pretzel [laughter] standing up on the move. We love that, standing up on the move. We love that, standing up on the move. We love that, right?" So, I think there's going to be right?" So, I think there's going to be right?" So, I think there's going to be a lot more like sitting down, a lot more a lot more like sitting down, a lot more a lot more like sitting down, a lot more like like crafts are back and you know like like crafts are back and you know like like crafts are back and you know like game playing and some of the things like game playing and some of the things like game playing and some of the things like this generation is is going to want like this generation is is going to want like this generation is is going to want to to you know connect with the land do to to you know connect with the land do to to you know connect with the land do the things that you know the parents and the things that you know the parents and the things that you know the parents and grandparents would have only you know grandparents would have only you know grandparents would have only you know imagined right that kind of I don't know imagined right that kind of I don't know imagined right that kind of I don't know if they're going to be like you know um

if they're going to be like you know um if they're going to be like you know um covered wagon trains or not I doubt it covered wagon trains or not I doubt it covered wagon trains or not I doubt it but I think there's this real sense of but I think there's this real sense of but I think there's this real sense of what an analog reality of slower pace what an analog reality of slower pace what an analog reality of slower pace I'm actually advocating people and I'm actually advocating people and I'm actually advocating people and churches should have like letterw churches should have like letterw churches should have like letterw writing Sundays and we get out a pen and writing Sundays and we get out a pen and writing Sundays and we get out a pen and a paper and we write a note like Paul a paper and we write a note like Paul a paper and we write a note like Paul did to his followers and said I love the did to his followers and said I love the did to his followers and said I love the work of God in you. I'm encouraging you work of God in you. I'm encouraging you work of God in you. I'm encouraging you second Timothy 1. Yeah. Know your mother second Timothy 1. Yeah. Know your mother second Timothy 1. Yeah. Know your mother and your grandmother, Lois and Ununice, and your grandmother, Lois and Ununice, and your grandmother, Lois and Ununice, and the same faith that beat in them is and the same faith that beat in them is and the same faith that beat in them is beating in you. And like, renew your beating in you. And like, renew your beating in you. And like, renew your your spiritual gifts, and you're not your spiritual gifts, and you're not your spiritual gifts, and you're not don't be anxious because God's not don't be anxious because God's not don't be anxious because God's not giving you a spirit of fear, but of giving you a spirit of fear, but of giving you a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and that's all handwritten. power, love, and that's all handwritten. power, love, and that's all handwritten. And we have the gift of these letters And we have the gift of these letters And we have the gift of these letters for generations. And what if in this for generations. And what if in this for generations. And what if in this time this analog time, a part of every time this analog time, a part of every time this analog time, a part of every month where, hey, we're going to write a month where, hey, we're going to write a month where, hey, we're going to write a letter to a grandparents or someone you letter to a grandparents or someone you letter to a grandparents or someone you want to mentor or someone who's who's want to mentor or someone who's who's want to mentor or someone who's who's like, like, like, >> we did that as part of our analog >> we did that as part of our analog >> we did that as part of our analog experience. We we used our worship experience. We we used our worship experience. We we used our worship experiences experiences experiences in a less like stand up and eat your in a less like stand up and eat your in a less like stand up and eat your pretzel and like we got to get to the pretzel and like we got to get to the pretzel and like we got to get to the next thing. And instead we're like, next thing. And instead we're like, next thing. And instead we're like, "Hey, let's slow things down and and "Hey, let's slow things down and and "Hey, let's slow things down and and just think about what we're doing." And just think about what we're doing." And just think about what we're doing." And rubber stamps are passed around and rubber stamps are passed around and rubber stamps are passed around and construction paper and different things construction paper and different things construction paper and different things like if you didn't bring a pen and like if you didn't bring a pen and like if you didn't bring a pen and pencil, here's here's some stationery.

pencil, here's here's some stationery. pencil, here's here's some stationery. Like I think that would be the coolest Like I think that would be the coolest Like I think that would be the coolest thing in the world is to bring letter thing in the world is to bring letter thing in the world is to bring letter writing back. writing back. writing back. >> That is a cool thing. >> That is a cool thing. >> That is a cool thing. >> My kids my kids I write them letters. um >> My kids my kids I write them letters. um >> My kids my kids I write them letters. um you know since their mom passed I write you know since their mom passed I write you know since their mom passed I write them letters pretty consistently send it them letters pretty consistently send it them letters pretty consistently send it to them and they save them because to them and they save them because to them and they save them because they're sweet handwritten notes from they're sweet handwritten notes from they're sweet handwritten notes from their dad uh and sometimes they're just their dad uh and sometimes they're just their dad uh and sometimes they're just silly and goofy or funny card but it's silly and goofy or funny card but it's silly and goofy or funny card but it's actually been one of my spiritual pract actually been one of my spiritual pract actually been one of my spiritual pract or a practice I I think of it as or a practice I I think of it as or a practice I I think of it as spiritual but letterw writing and bring spiritual but letterw writing and bring spiritual but letterw writing and bring bringing letter writing bringing letter writing bringing letter writing >> that's really cool >> that's really cool >> that's really cool >> yeah so I think there's ways for us to >> yeah so I think there's ways for us to >> yeah so I think there's ways for us to imagine the church as a kind of hub of imagine the church as a kind of hub of imagine the church as a kind of hub of this kind of activity of real human this kind of activity of real human this kind of activity of real human activity that has a spiritual emphasis activity that has a spiritual emphasis activity that has a spiritual emphasis of like writing a letter to someone of like writing a letter to someone of like writing a letter to someone you're mentoring or someone that you you're mentoring or someone that you you're mentoring or someone that you admire because of their faith and you're admire because of their faith and you're admire because of their faith and you're encouraging them or you're telling your encouraging them or you're telling your encouraging them or you're telling your testimony, you're telling when God testimony, you're telling when God testimony, you're telling when God showed up uh to to u you know Paul like showed up uh to to u you know Paul like showed up uh to to u you know Paul like 2 Timothy 1, Paul, it's his last letter. 2 Timothy 1, Paul, it's his last letter. 2 Timothy 1, Paul, it's his last letter. He's writing it from prison. You can He's writing it from prison. You can He's writing it from prison. You can feel the weight. In fact, the last few feel the weight. In fact, the last few feel the weight. In fact, the last few verses has come quickly before winter of verses has come quickly before winter of verses has come quickly before winter of the of second Timothy cuz it's getting the of second Timothy cuz it's getting the of second Timothy cuz it's getting cold here in the prison. and like bring cold here in the prison. and like bring cold here in the prison. and like bring my jacket and and so you can feel the my jacket and and so you can feel the my jacket and and so you can feel the weight of the humanity from the first weight of the humanity from the first weight of the humanity from the first letters like I think of you daily uh letters like I think of you daily uh letters like I think of you daily uh Timothy I'm praying for you I come to Timothy I'm praying for you I come to Timothy I'm praying for you I come to tears thinking about our times together tears thinking about our times together tears thinking about our times together to like come quickly and bring bring to like come quickly and bring bring to like come quickly and bring bring some warm warm blankets and so like we some warm warm blankets and so like we some warm warm blankets and so like we we are living in a time where is it is we are living in a time where is it is we are living in a time where is it is very dehumanizing very uh disenchanting very dehumanizing very uh disenchanting very dehumanizing very uh disenchanting and the church can be a place of and the church can be a place of and the church can be a place of re-enchantment of belonging of of human re-enchantment of belonging of of human re-enchantment of belonging of of human expression of caring for people in

expression of caring for people in expression of caring for people in places like um death and dying and places like um death and dying and places like um death and dying and living and and birth and everywhere in living and and birth and everywhere in living and and birth and everywhere in between. And so I think there's some between. And so I think there's some between. And so I think there's some real ways uh you know so this is going real ways uh you know so this is going real ways uh you know so this is going to be my little campaign in 2026 and to be my little campaign in 2026 and to be my little campaign in 2026 and into 2027. Write write a letter make the into 2027. Write write a letter make the into 2027. Write write a letter make the >> bring back writer [clears throat] >> bring back writer [clears throat] >> bring back writer [clears throat] uh letter writing you've mentioned it a uh letter writing you've mentioned it a uh letter writing you've mentioned it a few times already digital Babylon. So, few times already digital Babylon. So, few times already digital Babylon. So, one of the trends that, and JD Greer one of the trends that, and JD Greer one of the trends that, and JD Greer helped me think through this on a helped me think through this on a helped me think through this on a podcast recently, but, you know, one of podcast recently, but, you know, one of podcast recently, but, you know, one of the consistent pieces of feedback I the consistent pieces of feedback I the consistent pieces of feedback I heard all year from pastors was, and heard all year from pastors was, and heard all year from pastors was, and Charlie Kirk really exposed it. It's Charlie Kirk really exposed it. It's Charlie Kirk really exposed it. It's like, no matter what I say, I can't win. like, no matter what I say, I can't win. like, no matter what I say, I can't win. Um, the conservatives weren't Um, the conservatives weren't Um, the conservatives weren't conservative enough. The moderates said conservative enough. The moderates said conservative enough. The moderates said too much, said too little. People who too much, said too little. People who too much, said too little. People who leaned a little bit left, they did. They leaned a little bit left, they did. They leaned a little bit left, they did. They weren't right enough. They weren't left weren't right enough. They weren't left weren't right enough. They weren't left enough. They weren't whatever. Uh, the enough. They weren't whatever. Uh, the enough. They weren't whatever. Uh, the people who did very little should have people who did very little should have people who did very little should have done more. for the people who did more done more. for the people who did more done more. for the people who did more didn't did too much. didn't did too much. didn't did too much. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I don't I didn't talk to a single >> Like I don't I didn't talk to a single >> Like I don't I didn't talk to a single church leader who said I really serve my church leader who said I really serve my church leader who said I really serve my people well in a moment like that people well in a moment like that people well in a moment like that regardless of your perspective on regardless of your perspective on regardless of your perspective on Charlie Kirk. And the more I was Charlie Kirk. And the more I was Charlie Kirk. And the more I was thinking about that and that thinking about that and that thinking about that and that conversation with JD Greer and you you conversation with JD Greer and you you conversation with JD Greer and you you and Mark Matlock talked about that um a and Mark Matlock talked about that um a and Mark Matlock talked about that um a few years ago you've been and and it's few years ago you've been and and it's few years ago you've been and and it's been you know disciplehip by algorithm been you know disciplehip by algorithm been you know disciplehip by algorithm has been happening for years. Yeah, has been happening for years. Yeah, has been happening for years. Yeah, >> for all intents and purposes, >> for all intents and purposes, >> for all intents and purposes, but I think it's coming home to roost.

but I think it's coming home to roost. but I think it's coming home to roost. We got a foretaste of it during like how We got a foretaste of it during like how We got a foretaste of it during like how on earth did that become partisan? But on earth did that become partisan? But on earth did that become partisan? But it did. it did. it did. >> It wasn't for about 3 weeks. >> It wasn't for about 3 weeks. >> It wasn't for about 3 weeks. >> Now all of a sudden it was partisan, >> Now all of a sudden it was partisan, >> Now all of a sudden it was partisan, right? And now we've got people the right? And now we've got people the right? And now we've got people the partisan sides are lining up on AI. partisan sides are lining up on AI. partisan sides are lining up on AI. Charlie Kirk became deeply, as tragic as Charlie Kirk became deeply, as tragic as Charlie Kirk became deeply, as tragic as that was, deeply political, deeply that was, deeply political, deeply that was, deeply political, deeply divisive overnight. And pastors are now divisive overnight. And pastors are now divisive overnight. And pastors are now saying on almost any issue, and there saying on almost any issue, and there saying on almost any issue, and there will be issues this year that pop up. We will be issues this year that pop up. We will be issues this year that pop up. We don't know what they are. And they're don't know what they are. And they're don't know what they are. And they're like, "Okay, I should respond or not like, "Okay, I should respond or not like, "Okay, I should respond or not respond. Whatever they do is going to be respond. Whatever they do is going to be respond. Whatever they do is going to be wrong." wrong." wrong." >> And I think underneath that is, you >> And I think underneath that is, you >> And I think underneath that is, you know, if the average screen time for know, if the average screen time for know, if the average screen time for Americans is seven hours a week now, Americans is seven hours a week now, Americans is seven hours a week now, >> a day, >> a day, >> a day, >> six day. 49 hours a week. Thank you. 49 >> six day. 49 hours a week. Thank you. 49 >> six day. 49 hours a week. Thank you. 49 hours a week, which could be hours a week, which could be hours a week, which could be >> I'm always here for a good fact check on >> I'm always here for a good fact check on >> I'm always here for a good fact check on you. you. you. >> Thank you. That's why you're here. >> Thank you. That's why you're here. >> Thank you. That's why you're here. That's why I'm here. That's why I just That's why I'm here. That's why I just That's why I'm here. That's why I just have opinions. You have facts. That's have opinions. You have facts. That's have opinions. You have facts. That's [laughter] that's our old banter, right? [laughter] that's our old banter, right? [laughter] that's our old banter, right? Uh but 40, you got 50 hours a week and Uh but 40, you got 50 hours a week and Uh but 40, you got 50 hours a week and somebody showing up for two hours a somebody showing up for two hours a somebody showing up for two hours a month at church. month at church. month at church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Guess who's going to win? The algorithm.

>> Guess who's going to win? The algorithm. >> Guess who's going to win? The algorithm. And you know, this is the thing that you And you know, this is the thing that you And you know, this is the thing that you know, if if back in the day, and we both know, if if back in the day, and we both know, if if back in the day, and we both have a pre-digital memory. If you have a pre-digital memory. If you have a pre-digital memory. If you subscribe to the New York Times and I subscribe to the New York Times and I subscribe to the New York Times and I subscribe to the New York Times, we got subscribe to the New York Times, we got subscribe to the New York Times, we got the same paper. My Instagram is totally the same paper. My Instagram is totally the same paper. My Instagram is totally different than yours. Every app on my different than yours. Every app on my different than yours. Every app on my phone is different than yours. Your phone is different than yours. Your phone is different than yours. Your YouTube is different than my YouTube. YouTube is different than my YouTube. YouTube is different than my YouTube. Um, apparently I like music and cars. So Um, apparently I like music and cars. So Um, apparently I like music and cars. So that's that's what YouTube told me for that's that's what YouTube told me for that's that's what YouTube told me for my 2025 recap. my 2025 recap. my 2025 recap. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> It's like you'll find the perfect song >> It's like you'll find the perfect song >> It's like you'll find the perfect song while you're washing your car. I'm like, while you're washing your car. I'm like, while you're washing your car. I'm like, "Oh, you know me well." Right. But "Oh, you know me well." Right. But "Oh, you know me well." Right. But you're you're YouTube. I mean, it could you're you're YouTube. I mean, it could you're you're YouTube. I mean, it could be you've got So you gather 100 people. be you've got So you gather 100 people. be you've got So you gather 100 people. >> You got a group that's been on >> You got a group that's been on >> You got a group that's been on ultrarightwing conspiracy theories. ultrarightwing conspiracy theories. ultrarightwing conspiracy theories. Others are mega. Other people are more Others are mega. Other people are more Others are mega. Other people are more moderate. other people are a little more moderate. other people are a little more moderate. other people are a little more left-leaning. And if you have a diverse left-leaning. And if you have a diverse left-leaning. And if you have a diverse church, you've got all these algorithms. church, you've got all these algorithms. church, you've got all these algorithms. So when you're setting up to say So when you're setting up to say So when you're setting up to say anything, they're processing it through anything, they're processing it through anything, they're processing it through the filter of, "Oh, you weren't mega the filter of, "Oh, you weren't mega the filter of, "Oh, you weren't mega enough. You were too mega. I can't enough. You were too mega. I can't enough. You were too mega. I can't believe you." You know, they've got believe you." You know, they've got believe you." You know, they've got their own filter. And I don't know how their own filter. And I don't know how their own filter. And I don't know how we escape that. Like, do you want to do we escape that. Like, do you want to do we escape that. Like, do you want to do you want to talk about that? Because you want to talk about that? Because you want to talk about that? Because that is the pain that church leaders are that is the pain that church leaders are that is the pain that church leaders are living with. And then we're supposed to living with. And then we're supposed to living with. And then we're supposed to do disciplehip that counteracts that.

do disciplehip that counteracts that. do disciplehip that counteracts that. But the disciplehip by algorithm is just But the disciplehip by algorithm is just But the disciplehip by algorithm is just it's winning. it's winning. it's winning. >> Well, I mean, you've I think very aptly >> Well, I mean, you've I think very aptly >> Well, I mean, you've I think very aptly described some of the the challenges described some of the the challenges described some of the the challenges that we've been predicting for a while, that we've been predicting for a while, that we've been predicting for a while, which is when you just look at the sheer which is when you just look at the sheer which is when you just look at the sheer weight of the hours and the immersive weight of the hours and the immersive weight of the hours and the immersive environment in which these tools take environment in which these tools take environment in which these tools take us, and we haven't even seen anything us, and we haven't even seen anything us, and we haven't even seen anything yet with AI. We're going to we're going yet with AI. We're going to we're going yet with AI. We're going to we're going to get to that. to get to that. to get to that. >> And and you know what the thing is? You >> And and you know what the thing is? You >> And and you know what the thing is? You and Mark have been saying it, but I and Mark have been saying it, but I and Mark have been saying it, but I think now we're all feeling it. That's think now we're all feeling it. That's think now we're all feeling it. That's what profits do, right? Like you went what profits do, right? Like you went what profits do, right? Like you went out and said, "Hey, this is happening. out and said, "Hey, this is happening. out and said, "Hey, this is happening. This is happening." And now everyone's This is happening." And now everyone's This is happening." And now everyone's like, "Oh, this is unavoidable." like, "Oh, this is unavoidable." like, "Oh, this is unavoidable." >> Yeah. Screens disciple. Yeah. >> Yeah. Screens disciple. Yeah. >> Yeah. Screens disciple. Yeah. >> I remember sort of being in a not just >> I remember sort of being in a not just >> I remember sort of being in a not just as a researcher, but as a a youth coach as a researcher, but as a a youth coach as a researcher, but as a a youth coach in in Southern California, and for me, in in Southern California, and for me, in in Southern California, and for me, the first it was about 20 something the first it was about 20 something the first it was about 20 something years ago where this young woman I I years ago where this young woman I I years ago where this young woman I I tell this this what is kind of a joke, tell this this what is kind of a joke, tell this this what is kind of a joke, but it's a it's a real it's a real but it's a it's a real it's a real but it's a it's a real it's a real story. Um this young woman wanted to story. Um this young woman wanted to story. Um this young woman wanted to sell her eggs and and what would the sell her eggs and and what would the sell her eggs and and what would the Bible have to say about that? And she Bible have to say about that? And she Bible have to say about that? And she had found a fertility clinic online and had found a fertility clinic online and had found a fertility clinic online and was going, was going, was going, >> "Oh, those eggs." Okay. Yeah, that was >> "Oh, those eggs." Okay. Yeah, that was >> "Oh, those eggs." Okay. Yeah, that was me. I was like I was like I thought you me. I was like I was like I thought you me. I was like I was like I thought you lived in an apartment. I didn't realize lived in an apartment. I didn't realize lived in an apartment. I didn't realize you had backyard chickens.

you had backyard chickens. you had backyard chickens. >> That my [laughter] my mind went to >> That my [laughter] my mind went to >> That my [laughter] my mind went to chickens. Okay. chickens. Okay. chickens. Okay. >> So that was when that happened and my >> So that was when that happened and my >> So that was when that happened and my one of my great friends Eddie Romos um one of my great friends Eddie Romos um one of my great friends Eddie Romos um he's like what do we do that one? It's he's like what do we do that one? It's he's like what do we do that one? It's like well at least you had the courage like well at least you had the courage like well at least you had the courage to ask us. to ask us. to ask us. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Cuz now he used to ask AI. Now I was >> Cuz now he used to ask AI. Now I was >> Cuz now he used to ask AI. Now I was like what would the Bible have to say? like what would the Bible have to say? like what would the Bible have to say? Right. And and Right. And and Right. And and >> maybe it's right, maybe it's not >> maybe it's right, maybe it's not >> maybe it's right, maybe it's not >> right. And so um that was my first >> right. And so um that was my first >> right. And so um that was my first moment was like oh wow this digital moment was like oh wow this digital moment was like oh wow this digital collision with what it means to grow up collision with what it means to grow up collision with what it means to grow up is going to change how young people it's is going to change how young people it's is going to change how young people it's it's you certainly access to pornography it's you certainly access to pornography it's you certainly access to pornography certainly like there's a whole romantic certainly like there's a whole romantic certainly like there's a whole romantic recession. People aren't dating. They're recession. People aren't dating. They're recession. People aren't dating. They're not in relationships. People are getting not in relationships. People are getting not in relationships. People are getting married later. They're not they're not married later. They're not they're not married later. They're not they're not as marriageoriented. They're not as as marriageoriented. They're not as as marriageoriented. They're not as childbearing oriented. Um and all that childbearing oriented. Um and all that childbearing oriented. Um and all that has sort of been mediated in some ways has sort of been mediated in some ways has sort of been mediated in some ways by by algorithms disassociating human by by algorithms disassociating human by by algorithms disassociating human relationships. They're ch changing how relationships. They're ch changing how relationships. They're ch changing how we think about relating to one another. we think about relating to one another. we think about relating to one another. So So So it's it is I think a a deeper hole and it's it is I think a a deeper hole and it's it is I think a a deeper hole and AI is going to make it more complicated AI is going to make it more complicated AI is going to make it more complicated and probably mostly worse. But I think and probably mostly worse. But I think and probably mostly worse. But I think the gospel this is part my point about the gospel this is part my point about the gospel this is part my point about the church as a learning community. Like the church as a learning community. Like the church as a learning community. Like the church can actually have it has uh the church can actually have it has uh the church can actually have it has uh if you remember the story of the the of if you remember the story of the the of if you remember the story of the the of Narnia Alan uh talks about magic and Narnia Alan uh talks about magic and Narnia Alan uh talks about magic and then deeper magic and I think the gospel then deeper magic and I think the gospel then deeper magic and I think the gospel is the deeper magic. It is it is is the deeper magic. It is it is is the deeper magic. It is it is actually the way to think about the actually the way to think about the actually the way to think about the truest nature of reality, the truest way truest nature of reality, the truest way truest nature of reality, the truest way of being human. That we are created in of being human. That we are created in of being human. That we are created in the image of God. um to do good and also the image of God. um to do good and also the image of God. um to do good and also fundamentally broken in deep need of our fundamentally broken in deep need of our fundamentally broken in deep need of our souls being redeemed in in in Christ's souls being redeemed in in in Christ's souls being redeemed in in in Christ's saving work on the cross and then to saving work on the cross and then to saving work on the cross and then to become resurrection people that the same

become resurrection people that the same become resurrection people that the same power that raised Christ from the dead power that raised Christ from the dead power that raised Christ from the dead lives in us in some sort of lives in us in some sort of lives in us in some sort of metaphysically metaphysically metaphysically like uh uh real way. Um, I was going to like uh uh real way. Um, I was going to like uh uh real way. Um, I was going to make the second point a minute ago and make the second point a minute ago and make the second point a minute ago and I'll make it now I'll make it now I'll make it now >> about about a new piece of data that's >> about about a new piece of data that's >> about about a new piece of data that's coming out. And again, just it's it's coming out. And again, just it's it's coming out. And again, just it's it's it's so not quite ready, but I'm going it's so not quite ready, but I'm going it's so not quite ready, but I'm going to do it because it's worthwhile. Um, to do it because it's worthwhile. Um, to do it because it's worthwhile. Um, we're asking about people who believe in we're asking about people who believe in we're asking about people who believe in the historicity of the resurrection, the historicity of the resurrection, the historicity of the resurrection, people who live in the import believe in people who live in the import believe in people who live in the import believe in the importance culturally of the the importance culturally of the the importance culturally of the resurrection and the people who believe resurrection and the people who believe resurrection and the people who believe that was personally relevant to them that was personally relevant to them that was personally relevant to them today. today. today. >> Um, we're calling them hip Christians. >> Um, we're calling them hip Christians. >> Um, we're calling them hip Christians. Hi, hipto important and personal. Hi, hipto important and personal. Hi, hipto important and personal. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> Okay. It's just a it's a joke. But um um >> Okay. It's just a it's a joke. But um um >> Okay. It's just a it's a joke. But um um it is it's important because of what I it is it's important because of what I it is it's important because of what I want. want. want. >> Social research joke. >> Social research joke. >> Social research joke. >> Exactly. It's a nerd a nerd joke for >> Exactly. It's a nerd a nerd joke for >> Exactly. It's a nerd a nerd joke for sure. Um which is even a whole different sure. Um which is even a whole different sure. Um which is even a whole different level than like a dad joke, you know. level than like a dad joke, you know. level than like a dad joke, you know. >> It is. It's up there, man. >> It is. It's up there, man. >> It is. It's up there, man. >> And being a dad, >> And being a dad, >> And being a dad, >> most of us most of us can only aspire to >> most of us most of us can only aspire to >> most of us most of us can only aspire to that kind of humor. [laughter] that kind of humor. [laughter] that kind of humor. [laughter] >> And being a dad who is a social >> And being a dad who is a social >> And being a dad who is a social researcher is a is a double whammy. Um, researcher is a is a double whammy. Um, researcher is a is a double whammy. Um, so the reason I'm I'm telling you all so the reason I'm I'm telling you all so the reason I'm I'm telling you all this and at early places that I think this and at early places that I think this and at early places that I think that that that >> it it what we find is that just >> it it what we find is that just >> it it what we find is that just believing that the that the resurrection believing that the that the resurrection believing that the that the resurrection was historic doesn't change a person.

was historic doesn't change a person. was historic doesn't change a person. Believing that it's important doesn't Believing that it's important doesn't Believing that it's important doesn't change a person, but believing that it's change a person, but believing that it's change a person, but believing that it's historic and important and personal historic and important and personal historic and important and personal is a big differentiator in a lot of is a big differentiator in a lot of is a big differentiator in a lot of outcomes. outcomes. outcomes. >> Um like they're people flourish more >> Um like they're people flourish more >> Um like they're people flourish more when those things across other when those things across other when those things across other dimensions of life just spirituality. dimensions of life just spirituality. dimensions of life just spirituality. >> Oh, so it's kind of a you're tracing it >> Oh, so it's kind of a you're tracing it >> Oh, so it's kind of a you're tracing it out now. out now. out now. >> Correct. and saying, "Oh, your life is >> Correct. and saying, "Oh, your life is >> Correct. and saying, "Oh, your life is better if better if better if >> your life is different if," >> your life is different if," >> your life is different if," >> right? And if it's just personal but not >> right? And if it's just personal but not >> right? And if it's just personal but not historic and important, like there's historic and important, like there's historic and important, like there's something about going back into time and something about going back into time and something about going back into time and understand what Jesus was like. We have understand what Jesus was like. We have understand what Jesus was like. We have to actually train people to think about to actually train people to think about to actually train people to think about the resurrection and and then the world the resurrection and and then the world the resurrection and and then the world view that flows from that. And then view that flows from that. And then view that flows from that. And then because of that, we live differently in because of that, we live differently in because of that, we live differently in the world because we're we're not just the world because we're we're not just the world because we're we're not just everyday human beings. We're everyday human beings. We're everyday human beings. We're resurrection people. We're living in a resurrection people. We're living in a resurrection people. We're living in a different fundamental reality. And you different fundamental reality. And you different fundamental reality. And you can see this, you know, certainly in the can see this, you know, certainly in the can see this, you know, certainly in the the lives of martyrs or modern-day the lives of martyrs or modern-day the lives of martyrs or modern-day people who are living lives um you know people who are living lives um you know people who are living lives um you know tapping into a deeper reality or they tapping into a deeper reality or they tapping into a deeper reality or they call about like talk about a thin space call about like talk about a thin space call about like talk about a thin space or um you know and in the New Testament or um you know and in the New Testament or um you know and in the New Testament you know Paul says he was um taken up to you know Paul says he was um taken up to you know Paul says he was um taken up to the third heaven like he's living in a the third heaven like he's living in a the third heaven like he's living in a um he's living in a spiritual is it John um he's living in a spiritual is it John um he's living in a spiritual is it John or Paul who rocks talks about that. I or Paul who rocks talks about that. I or Paul who rocks talks about that. I think it's Paul right think it's Paul right think it's Paul right >> Paul yeah Paul in second Corinthians.

>> Paul yeah Paul in second Corinthians. >> Paul yeah Paul in second Corinthians. >> Yeah. And and so like you see this kind >> Yeah. And and so like you see this kind >> Yeah. And and so like you see this kind of vibration the upper the upper room we of vibration the upper the upper room we of vibration the upper the upper room we we we can be upper room Christians. We we we can be upper room Christians. We we we can be upper room Christians. We can be living we can be can be living we can be can be living we can be resurrection-minded Christians. So the resurrection-minded Christians. So the resurrection-minded Christians. So the the hope of being formed differently the hope of being formed differently the hope of being formed differently than the algorithmic era is to to to than the algorithmic era is to to to than the algorithmic era is to to to lean into the supernatural power of the lean into the supernatural power of the lean into the supernatural power of the resurrection. It's not just believing resurrection. It's not just believing resurrection. It's not just believing about Jesus death on the cross which about Jesus death on the cross which about Jesus death on the cross which saves us from our sins but it's about saves us from our sins but it's about saves us from our sins but it's about his resurrection that gives us the power his resurrection that gives us the power his resurrection that gives us the power to live in a different way. I think one to live in a different way. I think one to live in a different way. I think one tangible thing church leaders can do tangible thing church leaders can do tangible thing church leaders can do about the whole disciplehip by algorithm about the whole disciplehip by algorithm about the whole disciplehip by algorithm because I I always send out the church because I I always send out the church because I I always send out the church trends report to a handful of friends, trends report to a handful of friends, trends report to a handful of friends, you included uh like feedback. Is this you included uh like feedback. Is this you included uh like feedback. Is this resonating? What do you notice? And I I resonating? What do you notice? And I I resonating? What do you notice? And I I like you to vouch for the research that like you to vouch for the research that like you to vouch for the research that [laughter] kind of thing. Make sure I'm [laughter] kind of thing. Make sure I'm [laughter] kind of thing. Make sure I'm not grossly misstating what Bara has. not grossly misstating what Bara has. not grossly misstating what Bara has. >> You always do a great job. >> You always do a great job. >> You always do a great job. >> Well, I enjoy it, man. And I'm so >> Well, I enjoy it, man. And I'm so >> Well, I enjoy it, man. And I'm so grateful because otherwise, you know, grateful because otherwise, you know, grateful because otherwise, you know, everybody watching this is sitting at everybody watching this is sitting at everybody watching this is sitting at their desk trying to get their work their desk trying to get their work their desk trying to get their work done. done. done. >> They don't have time to do research. And >> They don't have time to do research. And >> They don't have time to do research. And then we we pastor by anecdotes, then we we pastor by anecdotes, then we we pastor by anecdotes, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> It's like, I think it's all revival. You >> It's like, I think it's all revival. You >> It's like, I think it's all revival. You know, we don't have that tap the brakes know, we don't have that tap the brakes know, we don't have that tap the brakes data. That kind of thing. But one thing data. That kind of thing. But one thing data. That kind of thing. But one thing you can do when one of the pastors I you can do when one of the pastors I you can do when one of the pastors I shared it with, he was like, "Oh, that's shared it with, he was like, "Oh, that's shared it with, he was like, "Oh, that's a series. I'm going to do a series on a series. I'm going to do a series on a series. I'm going to do a series on disciplehip by algorithm. This is why disciplehip by algorithm. This is why disciplehip by algorithm. This is why you can't get along with anybody." And you can't get along with anybody." And you can't get along with anybody." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly." And I think if we elevate that, maybe my And I think if we elevate that, maybe my And I think if we elevate that, maybe my team should put something out like a team should put something out like a team should put something out like a series outline or something. I think series outline or something. I think series outline or something. I think that's great. Yeah, I like that. that's great. Yeah, I like that. that's great. Yeah, I like that. >> Yeah. It's like just just surface it. >> Yeah. It's like just just surface it. >> Yeah. It's like just just surface it. It's like this is why you know you got It's like this is why you know you got It's like this is why you know you got along with your neighbor better 10 years along with your neighbor better 10 years along with your neighbor better 10 years ago than you do right now, but they got ago than you do right now, but they got ago than you do right now, but they got radicalized or polarized or something radicalized or polarized or something radicalized or polarized or something postco postco postco >> and here's why. And if you understand >> and here's why. And if you understand >> and here's why. And if you understand why then and then well what do you do why then and then well what do you do why then and then well what do you do about that theologically, right? Because about that theologically, right? Because about that theologically, right? Because we're a peculiar people. We and you said we're a peculiar people. We and you said we're a peculiar people. We and you said if the early church really functioned if the early church really functioned if the early church really functioned like a philosophical society well that's like a philosophical society well that's like a philosophical society well that's great fodder to say here's how we're great fodder to say here's how we're great fodder to say here's how we're being discipled by these being discipled by these being discipled by these >> right >> right >> right >> and you know this is how we're discipled >> and you know this is how we're discipled >> and you know this is how we're discipled by Jesus and it's different and here's by Jesus and it's different and here's by Jesus and it's different and here's the ethic that unites us right the paper the ethic that unites us right the paper the ethic that unites us right the paper the news network that sort of provides a the news network that sort of provides a the news network that sort of provides a a common playbook for all of us guess a common playbook for all of us guess a common playbook for all of us guess what it's love guess what it's what it's love guess what it's what it's love guess what it's resurrection guess what it's caring for resurrection guess what it's caring for resurrection guess what it's caring for your neighbor it's about loving one your neighbor it's about loving one your neighbor it's about loving one another. That's what we do as the another. That's what we do as the another. That's what we do as the church. And that's different than all of church. And that's different than all of church. And that's different than all of our algorithms, including mine.

our algorithms, including mine. our algorithms, including mine. >> I I didn't mean by my long answer before >> I I didn't mean by my long answer before >> I I didn't mean by my long answer before to even avoid your other question, which to even avoid your other question, which to even avoid your other question, which was I think really um at the heart of was I think really um at the heart of was I think really um at the heart of like how would you have a political like how would you have a political like how would you have a political theology? How would you disciple in an theology? How would you disciple in an theology? How would you disciple in an era of algorithmic formation? And um it era of algorithmic formation? And um it era of algorithmic formation? And um it goes back to one of the other themes we goes back to one of the other themes we goes back to one of the other themes we themes we've been talking about, which themes we've been talking about, which themes we've been talking about, which is a church as a learning community. So is a church as a learning community. So is a church as a learning community. So you can preach through most of that and you can preach through most of that and you can preach through most of that and preaching is an essential part of it. preaching is an essential part of it. preaching is an essential part of it. It's just not the only toolkit. So, you It's just not the only toolkit. So, you It's just not the only toolkit. So, you have to give people like tools for have to give people like tools for have to give people like tools for everyday conversations. Here's ways to everyday conversations. Here's ways to everyday conversations. Here's ways to love your neighbor. Here's ways love your neighbor. Here's ways love your neighbor. Here's ways practical examples of this interviewing practical examples of this interviewing practical examples of this interviewing people on stage who have had like, you people on stage who have had like, you people on stage who have had like, you know, maybe you bring some people who know, maybe you bring some people who know, maybe you bring some people who have been working at this kind of like have been working at this kind of like have been working at this kind of like marriage therapy between a political marriage therapy between a political marriage therapy between a political conservative and a political liberal. conservative and a political liberal. conservative and a political liberal. Um, you know, you're you're actually Um, you know, you're you're actually Um, you know, you're you're actually maybe like writing letters to someone maybe like writing letters to someone maybe like writing letters to someone you vehemently disagree with, but you're you vehemently disagree with, but you're you vehemently disagree with, but you're going to say, "Here's like a three-step. going to say, "Here's like a three-step. going to say, "Here's like a three-step. Here's what you love. here's what you Here's what you love. here's what you Here's what you love. here's what you admire and here's how Jesus loves them admire and here's how Jesus loves them admire and here's how Jesus loves them or whatever it is. And so you're you're or whatever it is. And so you're you're or whatever it is. And so you're you're you're creating this kind of you're creating this kind of you're creating this kind of counterculture that helps to provide counterculture that helps to provide counterculture that helps to provide that kind of modeling that that takes that kind of modeling that that takes that kind of modeling that that takes the preaching and puts flesh and bones the preaching and puts flesh and bones the preaching and puts flesh and bones on it.

on it. on it. >> Yeah. And I think, you know, just to to >> Yeah. And I think, you know, just to to >> Yeah. And I think, you know, just to to reiterate what I said earlier with that, reiterate what I said earlier with that, reiterate what I said earlier with that, you know, I think we do we are seeing you know, I think we do we are seeing you know, I think we do we are seeing sort of an anti-woke moment in the sort of an anti-woke moment in the sort of an anti-woke moment in the church. And you know, I don't want to church. And you know, I don't want to church. And you know, I don't want to judge people who are in it, but I think judge people who are in it, but I think judge people who are in it, but I think if your theology becomes if your theology becomes if your theology becomes indistinguishable from an ideology or indistinguishable from an ideology or indistinguishable from an ideology or political ideology, it's got a shelf political ideology, it's got a shelf political ideology, it's got a shelf life. And it's probably not the gospel. life. And it's probably not the gospel. life. And it's probably not the gospel. The gospel is going to offend The gospel is going to offend The gospel is going to offend conservatives. It's going to offend conservatives. It's going to offend conservatives. It's going to offend liberals. It's not going to seem exactly liberals. It's not going to seem exactly liberals. It's not going to seem exactly like whatever platform your particular like whatever platform your particular like whatever platform your particular party or idea of ideal politics is is party or idea of ideal politics is is party or idea of ideal politics is is advancing right now. And I think we can advancing right now. And I think we can advancing right now. And I think we can get swap swept up. You know, Keller get swap swept up. You know, Keller get swap swept up. You know, Keller makes the argument really powerfully in makes the argument really powerfully in makes the argument really powerfully in a paper he wrote before he died. Now, a paper he wrote before he died. Now, a paper he wrote before he died. Now, that's what happened to the mainline that's what happened to the mainline that's what happened to the mainline church. The mainline church basically church. The mainline church basically church. The mainline church basically swallowed progressive theology and just swallowed progressive theology and just swallowed progressive theology and just lost its distinctive Christian lost its distinctive Christian lost its distinctive Christian >> background. And he said the evangelical >> background. And he said the evangelical >> background. And he said the evangelical church is in uh a similar thing. The church is in uh a similar thing. The church is in uh a similar thing. The other thing that Ryan Burge has written other thing that Ryan Burge has written other thing that Ryan Burge has written about, which I was going to ask you about, which I was going to ask you about, which I was going to ask you about earlier, something like I'm I'm about earlier, something like I'm I'm about earlier, something like I'm I'm going to pull a number out of the air going to pull a number out of the air going to pull a number out of the air because I can do that and you can't.

because I can do that and you can't. because I can do that and you can't. [laughter] Um 17% there's a meaningful [laughter] Um 17% there's a meaningful [laughter] Um 17% there's a meaningful percentage 17% 27% 7 is sticking in my percentage 17% 27% 7 is sticking in my percentage 17% 27% 7 is sticking in my head head head >> of people who call themselves >> of people who call themselves >> of people who call themselves evangelicals don't use that term evangelicals don't use that term evangelicals don't use that term religiously they use it politically. religiously they use it politically. religiously they use it politically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Have you seen that trend? I uh don't >> Have you seen that trend? I uh don't >> Have you seen that trend? I uh don't know the number but but certainly yeah know the number but but certainly yeah know the number but but certainly yeah there's yeah you've seen that there's yeah you've seen that there's yeah you've seen that >> any of these uh these terms by which um >> any of these uh these terms by which um >> any of these uh these terms by which um you know media or leaders or like you you know media or leaders or like you you know media or leaders or like you know there are something like 300 know there are something like 300 know there are something like 300 denominations in the US which has denominations in the US which has denominations in the US which has dramatically increased even the last 30 dramatically increased even the last 30 dramatically increased even the last 30 years years years >> the churches are declining but >> the churches are declining but >> the churches are declining but denominations are surging. denominations are surging. denominations are surging. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> And that because we we are all enjoying >> And that because we we are all enjoying >> And that because we we are all enjoying being defined by the things that we're being defined by the things that we're being defined by the things that we're unique about instead of how we're unique about instead of how we're unique about instead of how we're similar. So like be and by the way I similar. So like be and by the way I similar. So like be and by the way I think this idea of being a think this idea of being a think this idea of being a resurrection-minded Christian that resurrection-minded Christian that resurrection-minded Christian that defines all of us as Catholic and defines all of us as Catholic and defines all of us as Catholic and Protestant and evangelical and mainline Protestant and evangelical and mainline Protestant and evangelical and mainline and Orthodox and Orthodox and Orthodox >> who believe that a human being >> who believe that a human being >> who believe that a human being >> went to the grave and was raised again >> went to the grave and was raised again >> went to the grave and was raised again and because of that all of our lives are and because of that all of our lives are and because of that all of our lives are different and if we can unite around different and if we can unite around different and if we can unite around that that is a John 17 kind of prayer.

that that is a John 17 kind of prayer. that that is a John 17 kind of prayer. >> I don't want to skip past too much the >> I don't want to skip past too much the >> I don't want to skip past too much the emotions that pastors are feeling now emotions that pastors are feeling now emotions that pastors are feeling now about leading people through this about leading people through this about leading people through this political environment. So, we're talking political environment. So, we're talking political environment. So, we're talking a lot of kind of conceptual language, a lot of kind of conceptual language, a lot of kind of conceptual language, but but but >> if you're a leader and you are, >> if you're a leader and you are, >> if you're a leader and you are, >> you know, you feel like you said too >> you know, you feel like you said too >> you know, you feel like you said too much, said too little, you don't know much, said too little, you don't know much, said too little, you don't know when to like what I think you described when to like what I think you described when to like what I think you described that so well. Like if you're right, if that so well. Like if you're right, if that so well. Like if you're right, if you're left, you're left, you're left, >> no matter what you do, >> no matter what you do, >> no matter what you do, >> you are, >> you are, >> you are, >> you didn't do it right. >> you didn't do it right. >> you didn't do it right. >> You didn't do it right. So, I just want >> You didn't do it right. So, I just want >> You didn't do it right. So, I just want to say like it is courage. You're doing to say like it is courage. You're doing to say like it is courage. You're doing good work. Uh I just even feel like good work. Uh I just even feel like good work. Uh I just even feel like right now just want to pause and just right now just want to pause and just right now just want to pause and just say like if you're feeling discouraged say like if you're feeling discouraged say like if you're feeling discouraged about that, you're not you're not alone. about that, you're not you're not alone. about that, you're not you're not alone. >> My argument is you're doing it right. if >> My argument is you're doing it right. if >> My argument is you're doing it right. if you've upset people. you've upset people. you've upset people. >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh so >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh so >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh so >> yeah, we're just here to like we've been >> yeah, we're just here to like we've been >> yeah, we're just here to like we've been doing this through the political, you doing this through the political, you doing this through the political, you know, we've been podcasting a bit know, we've been podcasting a bit know, we've been podcasting a bit together during the you know, Church together during the you know, Church together during the you know, Church Pulse Weekly and other things and Pulse Weekly and other things and Pulse Weekly and other things and >> all the ups and downs of that whole >> all the ups and downs of that whole >> all the ups and downs of that whole season and so you know like I I season and so you know like I I season and so you know like I I appreciate you so much and just you know appreciate you so much and just you know appreciate you so much and just you know your steady leadership as as a a voice your steady leadership as as a a voice your steady leadership as as a a voice to church leaders and you're such a just to church leaders and you're such a just to church leaders and you're such a just a um gospel- centered man and appreciate a um gospel- centered man and appreciate a um gospel- centered man and appreciate you and Tony so much. And so just I want you and Tony so much. And so just I want you and Tony so much. And so just I want to say to leaders who are listening uh to say to leaders who are listening uh to say to leaders who are listening uh having talked to a lot of leaders, a lot having talked to a lot of leaders, a lot having talked to a lot of leaders, a lot of a lot of pastors even even in my home of a lot of pastors even even in my home of a lot of pastors even even in my home hometown of Fort Worth, Texas, um you hometown of Fort Worth, Texas, um you hometown of Fort Worth, Texas, um you know, if you're if you're not sort of um know, if you're if you're not sort of um know, if you're if you're not sort of um upsetting people at some level, you upsetting people at some level, you upsetting people at some level, you know, you might not be doing it right.

know, you might not be doing it right. know, you might not be doing it right. And um but just like I understand how And um but just like I understand how And um but just like I understand how much it hurts. My dad who's a lifelong much it hurts. My dad who's a lifelong much it hurts. My dad who's a lifelong pastor often says, "David, I don't know pastor often says, "David, I don't know pastor often says, "David, I don't know how I can do it in this, you know, like how I can do it in this, you know, like how I can do it in this, you know, like in this political." in this political." in this political." >> He's seen it change. >> He's seen it change. >> He's seen it change. >> Yeah. Yeah. the political environment >> Yeah. Yeah. the political environment >> Yeah. Yeah. the political environment has changed how how we do ministry so has changed how how we do ministry so has changed how how we do ministry so much which and I'm saying the only there much which and I'm saying the only there much which and I'm saying the only there are many different ways but one is to be are many different ways but one is to be are many different ways but one is to be resurrection minded Christians one is to resurrection minded Christians one is to resurrection minded Christians one is to be a learning community one is to have a be a learning community one is to have a be a learning community one is to have a lot of patience and love um and maybe my lot of patience and love um and maybe my lot of patience and love um and maybe my last thought on that is I I heard last thought on that is I I heard last thought on that is I I heard recently someone told me that and it's recently someone told me that and it's recently someone told me that and it's attributed to someone I don't remember attributed to someone I don't remember attributed to someone I don't remember the attribution but um human beings only the attribution but um human beings only the attribution but um human beings only change through great love or great change through great love or great change through great love or great suffering suffering suffering >> great love sacrificial love >> great love sacrificial love >> great love sacrificial love >> or great suffering And um and so I think >> or great suffering And um and so I think >> or great suffering And um and so I think one of the ways for us to help change one of the ways for us to help change one of the ways for us to help change people in an era of algorithms is to people in an era of algorithms is to people in an era of algorithms is to just extend and show the great love of just extend and show the great love of just extend and show the great love of Jesus, to extend and show the great love Jesus, to extend and show the great love Jesus, to extend and show the great love that we have for people who are that we have for people who are that we have for people who are different than us. and also to talk different than us. and also to talk different than us. and also to talk about the things that we've suffered about the things that we've suffered about the things that we've suffered because by doing that we we tear down because by doing that we we tear down because by doing that we we tear down all of the pretenses of the the all of the pretenses of the the all of the pretenses of the the conspiracies and the right and the wrong conspiracies and the right and the wrong conspiracies and the right and the wrong and the left and the right and instead and the left and the right and instead and the left and the right and instead just like begin to journey together just like begin to journey together just like begin to journey together through what we have experienced as a a through what we have experienced as a a through what we have experienced as a a person who has suffered and so I think person who has suffered and so I think person who has suffered and so I think that might be helpful as we try to that might be helpful as we try to that might be helpful as we try to develop a political theology develop a political theology develop a political theology >> and I know you know in different parts >> and I know you know in different parts >> and I know you know in different parts of the world you could end up in prison of the world you could end up in prison of the world you could end up in prison or get beaten or lose your possessions or get beaten or lose your possessions or get beaten or lose your possessions it's probably not happening in the west it's probably not happening in the west it's probably not happening in the west right now for the the most part. But if right now for the the most part. But if right now for the the most part. But if part of your job is suffering right now, part of your job is suffering right now, part of your job is suffering right now, you're in good biblical company.

you're in good biblical company. you're in good biblical company. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> You know, and and you know, as much as I >> You know, and and you know, as much as I >> You know, and and you know, as much as I try to uh try to uh try to uh try to not be divisive and try to speak try to not be divisive and try to speak try to not be divisive and try to speak to as many aspects of the church as to as many aspects of the church as to as many aspects of the church as possible because I really do love the possible because I really do love the possible because I really do love the church and I really love pastors. All I church and I really love pastors. All I church and I really love pastors. All I have to do is scroll down far enough in have to do is scroll down far enough in have to do is scroll down far enough in the comments and I'll find somebody who the comments and I'll find somebody who the comments and I'll find somebody who disagrees with disagrees with disagrees with >> what you and I are talking about today. >> what you and I are talking about today. >> what you and I are talking about today. And I think we're being very reasonable, And I think we're being very reasonable, And I think we're being very reasonable, you know, but but that is the moment you know, but but that is the moment you know, but but that is the moment we're in. It's just like it's just going we're in. It's just like it's just going we're in. It's just like it's just going to be hard. to be hard. to be hard. >> Well, one of the things that Charlie >> Well, one of the things that Charlie >> Well, one of the things that Charlie Kirk's death did for for me, we're we're Kirk's death did for for me, we're we're Kirk's death did for for me, we're we're doing a study on that and um you know, doing a study on that and um you know, doing a study on that and um you know, we found that the vast majority of we found that the vast majority of we found that the vast majority of Americans knew of Charlie before his Americans knew of Charlie before his Americans knew of Charlie before his death, but didn't follow him very death, but didn't follow him very death, but didn't follow him very closely. Only about 15% of Americans closely. Only about 15% of Americans closely. Only about 15% of Americans said they followed him closely. But his said they followed him closely. But his said they followed him closely. But his younger generations, about two and five younger generations, about two and five younger generations, about two and five millennials and Gen Zers said they millennials and Gen Zers said they millennials and Gen Zers said they followed him very closely. Um, so he followed him very closely. Um, so he followed him very closely. Um, so he wasn't, you know, a mainstream wasn't, you know, a mainstream wasn't, you know, a mainstream celebrity, but among younger generations celebrity, but among younger generations celebrity, but among younger generations and and younger conservatives, he was a and and younger conservatives, he was a and and younger conservatives, he was a a really a pi piper. a really a pi piper. a really a pi piper. >> And um, about three in 10 Americans say >> And um, about three in 10 Americans say >> And um, about three in 10 Americans say they've taken some kind of action, they've taken some kind of action, they've taken some kind of action, mostly spiritual since his death as a mostly spiritual since his death as a mostly spiritual since his death as a result of his death. So they've gone result of his death. So they've gone result of his death. So they've gone back to church, bought a Bible, done back to church, bought a Bible, done back to church, bought a Bible, done something. And so, you know, his death something. And so, you know, his death something. And so, you know, his death had a huge huge impact on many people in had a huge huge impact on many people in had a huge huge impact on many people in a in a way. Um, and I think I saw um a a in a way. Um, and I think I saw um a a in a way. Um, and I think I saw um a couple a couple friends talk about this couple a couple friends talk about this couple a couple friends talk about this that it it's also an important thing for that it it's also an important thing for that it it's also an important thing for us. Whatever you think about left, us. Whatever you think about left, us. Whatever you think about left, right, center, Charlie Kirk's work um right, center, Charlie Kirk's work um right, center, Charlie Kirk's work um and and his legacy, this notion, you you

and and his legacy, this notion, you you and and his legacy, this notion, you you can't you can't completely wash your can't you can't completely wash your can't you can't completely wash your hands of a political theology. You have hands of a political theology. You have hands of a political theology. You have to actually embrace and read deeply and to actually embrace and read deeply and to actually embrace and read deeply and understand if your church isn't working understand if your church isn't working understand if your church isn't working for someone who is a a a Christian in for someone who is a a a Christian in for someone who is a a a Christian in politics, whether they are right or politics, whether they are right or politics, whether they are right or moderate or center or right, right, moderate or center or right, right, moderate or center or right, right, moderate or um whether they're right, moderate or um whether they're right, moderate or um whether they're right, center or left, I should say. Um that um center or left, I should say. Um that um center or left, I should say. Um that um that you know it has to be able to work that you know it has to be able to work that you know it has to be able to work in even in public office. It has to be in even in public office. It has to be in even in public office. It has to be able to we have to be able to fight for able to we have to be able to fight for able to we have to be able to fight for ideas and and and contend for the kinds ideas and and and contend for the kinds ideas and and and contend for the kinds of things that we think are going to of things that we think are going to of things that we think are going to make a better, more more flourishing, make a better, more more flourishing, make a better, more more flourishing, more gospel- centered society. Um, and more gospel- centered society. Um, and more gospel- centered society. Um, and so those are, you know, I've been so those are, you know, I've been so those are, you know, I've been realizing like, uh, maybe maybe my as a realizing like, uh, maybe maybe my as a realizing like, uh, maybe maybe my as a a neutral researcher, uh, an independent a neutral researcher, uh, an independent a neutral researcher, uh, an independent researcher. I'm not more or less right researcher. I'm not more or less right researcher. I'm not more or less right or or left now as a result of Charlie or or left now as a result of Charlie or or left now as a result of Charlie Kirk's passing, but I'm realizing that Kirk's passing, but I'm realizing that Kirk's passing, but I'm realizing that what he was trying to do is a kind of what he was trying to do is a kind of what he was trying to do is a kind of learning community by talking about learning community by talking about learning community by talking about ideas that matter to young people and ideas that matter to young people and ideas that matter to young people and your church is doesn't have to be at the your church is doesn't have to be at the your church is doesn't have to be at the center of all that, but it has to be a center of all that, but it has to be a center of all that, but it has to be a facilitation place where those kinds of facilitation place where those kinds of facilitation place where those kinds of things can be talked about. What about things can be talked about. What about things can be talked about. What about social socialism? what about gender?

social socialism? what about gender? social socialism? what about gender? What about what about, you know, What about what about, you know, What about what about, you know, society? What about economics? What society? What about economics? What society? What about economics? What about flourishing? And so so the church about flourishing? And so so the church about flourishing? And so so the church has to be a place where those ideas uh g has to be a place where those ideas uh g has to be a place where those ideas uh g gain a hearing. And and and this is gain a hearing. And and and this is gain a hearing. And and and this is partly back to my other point that if partly back to my other point that if partly back to my other point that if it's just done in the context of it's just done in the context of it's just done in the context of preaching, you're not going to be able preaching, you're not going to be able preaching, you're not going to be able to find your way through all that just to find your way through all that just to find your way through all that just by preaching about it. People want to be by preaching about it. People want to be by preaching about it. People want to be able to talk, they want to be able to able to talk, they want to be able to able to talk, they want to be able to listen, they want to be able to learn, listen, they want to be able to learn, listen, they want to be able to learn, they want to be able to debate, they they want to be able to debate, they they want to be able to debate, they want to be able to like understand. And want to be able to like understand. And want to be able to like understand. And so you have to be able to take that so you have to be able to take that so you have to be able to take that temperature down and help to disciple temperature down and help to disciple temperature down and help to disciple people in a real and livable political people in a real and livable political people in a real and livable political theology that makes a difference in the theology that makes a difference in the theology that makes a difference in the way they live. So you can't just you way they live. So you can't just you way they live. So you can't just you can't just say, "Well, that's someone can't just say, "Well, that's someone can't just say, "Well, that's someone else's job. That's a you got to you got else's job. That's a you got to you got else's job. That's a you got to you got to you got to dip your toe into the deep to you got to dip your toe into the deep to you got to dip your toe into the deep end sometimes." end sometimes." end sometimes." >> Yeah. One of the pastors that springs to >> Yeah. One of the pastors that springs to >> Yeah. One of the pastors that springs to mind when you talk about that who I mind when you talk about that who I mind when you talk about that who I think is doing that really well or think is doing that really well or think is doing that really well or attempting to do it very well is Rich attempting to do it very well is Rich attempting to do it very well is Rich Votus, you know, a mutual friend. And I Votus, you know, a mutual friend. And I Votus, you know, a mutual friend. And I remember talking to him in the run-up to remember talking to him in the run-up to remember talking to him in the run-up to the last uh presidential election and the last uh presidential election and the last uh presidential election and you know they've got I don't know 70 you know they've got I don't know 70 you know they've got I don't know 70 nations or something like that attending nations or something like that attending nations or something like that attending their church and people on both sides of their church and people on both sides of their church and people on both sides of the spectrum so to speak politically and the spectrum so to speak politically and the spectrum so to speak politically and it's a lot of dialogue. The dialogue on it's a lot of dialogue. The dialogue on it's a lot of dialogue. The dialogue on Sunday is preceded by so much dialogue Sunday is preceded by so much dialogue Sunday is preceded by so much dialogue off Sunday and learning to love each off Sunday and learning to love each off Sunday and learning to love each other and to sit in the same room other and to sit in the same room other and to sit in the same room >> and to say we don't we don't always >> and to say we don't we don't always >> and to say we don't we don't always agree. We we may not even like each agree. We we may not even like each agree. We we may not even like each other other other >> culturally, right?

>> culturally, right? >> culturally, right? >> But the gospel unites us and that's >> But the gospel unites us and that's >> But the gospel unites us and that's really hard work. So, really hard work. So, really hard work. So, >> I'm going to shift gears a little bit. >> I'm going to shift gears a little bit. >> I'm going to shift gears a little bit. >> Um, you know, there is that stat about I >> Um, you know, there is that stat about I >> Um, you know, there is that stat about I think it peaked at 42% in 2022 of think it peaked at 42% in 2022 of think it peaked at 42% in 2022 of pastors were giving real consideration pastors were giving real consideration pastors were giving real consideration to leaving full-time ministry, to leaving full-time ministry, to leaving full-time ministry, vocational ministry. I know you're doing vocational ministry. I know you're doing vocational ministry. I know you're doing new data on that. I don't know whether new data on that. I don't know whether new data on that. I don't know whether that number is out. But the other that number is out. But the other that number is out. But the other problem is we've lost a bunch of problem is we've lost a bunch of problem is we've lost a bunch of pastors, but the average age keeps pastors, but the average age keeps pastors, but the average age keeps creeping up. We're well into I think the creeping up. We're well into I think the creeping up. We're well into I think the average age is around 58 now of senior average age is around 58 now of senior average age is around 58 now of senior pastors. And when Barer was asking the pastors. And when Barer was asking the pastors. And when Barer was asking the question back in the 90s, it was question back in the 90s, it was question back in the 90s, it was something like 42. And only 6% of something like 42. And only 6% of something like 42. And only 6% of pastors were above the age of 65. Now I pastors were above the age of 65. Now I pastors were above the age of 65. Now I don't know what the stat would be, but don't know what the stat would be, but don't know what the stat would be, but there's there's a lot of 65 plus there's there's a lot of 65 plus there's there's a lot of 65 plus pastors. pastors. pastors. >> There are. Yeah. So, and then you know, >> There are. Yeah. So, and then you know, >> There are. Yeah. So, and then you know, you had data that just really alarmed me you had data that just really alarmed me you had data that just really alarmed me that the majority of church leaders over that the majority of church leaders over that the majority of church leaders over 40 don't have a favorable view of the 40 don't have a favorable view of the 40 don't have a favorable view of the next generation. They're like, there's a next generation. They're like, there's a next generation. They're like, there's a lot of issues here. So, lot of issues here. So, lot of issues here. So, >> right. Yeah.

>> right. Yeah. >> right. Yeah. >> It it really, you know, I've talked >> It it really, you know, I've talked >> It it really, you know, I've talked about the succession crisis for years in about the succession crisis for years in about the succession crisis for years in the church, but it doesn't seem to be the church, but it doesn't seem to be the church, but it doesn't seem to be getting a lot better. What are you getting a lot better. What are you getting a lot better. What are you noticing? noticing? noticing? >> No, I mean, this is one of the the under >> No, I mean, this is one of the the under >> No, I mean, this is one of the the under the hood uh issues, and I'm so glad the hood uh issues, and I'm so glad the hood uh issues, and I'm so glad you're bringing it up. Mhm. you're bringing it up. Mhm. you're bringing it up. Mhm. >> Pastors continue to to get a little >> Pastors continue to to get a little >> Pastors continue to to get a little older. Um and and um I mean human beings older. Um and and um I mean human beings older. Um and and um I mean human beings get older, so it sounds like it sounds get older, so it sounds like it sounds get older, so it sounds like it sounds like a dad joke. like a dad joke. like a dad joke. >> I tend to get older. [laughter] >> I tend to get older. [laughter] >> I tend to get older. [laughter] >> Uh but the industry is aging. Um and and >> Uh but the industry is aging. Um and and >> Uh but the industry is aging. Um and and we've been seeing that for we've been we've been seeing that for we've been we've been seeing that for we've been seeing that for a while. The the seeing that for a while. The the seeing that for a while. The the clerical sacraodal functions of of being clerical sacraodal functions of of being clerical sacraodal functions of of being a pastor, a clergy person um is getting a pastor, a clergy person um is getting a pastor, a clergy person um is getting older. And so I think what's there's a older. And so I think what's there's a older. And so I think what's there's a couple things under the hood. First one couple things under the hood. First one couple things under the hood. First one is um a lot of people are going into um is um a lot of people are going into um is um a lot of people are going into um other kinds of entrepreneurial careers. other kinds of entrepreneurial careers. other kinds of entrepreneurial careers. Um so instead of going into pastoring, Um so instead of going into pastoring, Um so instead of going into pastoring, we haven't really elevated the role of we haven't really elevated the role of we haven't really elevated the role of pastoring. I don't think we've done pastoring. I don't think we've done pastoring. I don't think we've done enough to show people by vocational enough to show people by vocational enough to show people by vocational pastoring that you can make money in pastoring that you can make money in pastoring that you can make money in other forms, not you know like tent tent other forms, not you know like tent tent other forms, not you know like tent tent making like like Paul talks about and um making like like Paul talks about and um making like like Paul talks about and um and so we need to give more viable and so we need to give more viable and so we need to give more viable economic and and and even to younger economic and and and even to younger economic and and and even to younger like teenagers. we need to to re um like teenagers. we need to to re um like teenagers. we need to to re um reestablish ministry roles as a a really reestablish ministry roles as a a really reestablish ministry roles as a a really valued role uh in society. Maybe this valued role uh in society. Maybe this valued role uh in society. Maybe this moment maybe God is giving a kind of moment maybe God is giving a kind of moment maybe God is giving a kind of societywide renewal just to awaken those societywide renewal just to awaken those societywide renewal just to awaken those 10,000 30,000 young people to vocational 10,000 30,000 young people to vocational 10,000 30,000 young people to vocational ministry in a new way. Maybe he's ministry in a new way. Maybe he's ministry in a new way. Maybe he's refreshing the pipeline.

refreshing the pipeline. refreshing the pipeline. >> That would be awesome, >> That would be awesome, >> That would be awesome, >> right? So, and that by the way, that's >> right? So, and that by the way, that's >> right? So, and that by the way, that's another key moment. So maybe part of the another key moment. So maybe part of the another key moment. So maybe part of the thing we should do as we're preaching thing we should do as we're preaching thing we should do as we're preaching and teaching is if if God's stirring you and teaching is if if God's stirring you and teaching is if if God's stirring you to do ministry, here's some here's some to do ministry, here's some here's some to do ministry, here's some here's some off-ramps and on-ramps to do that. So as off-ramps and on-ramps to do that. So as off-ramps and on-ramps to do that. So as you're preaching, as you're teaching, you're preaching, as you're teaching, you're preaching, as you're teaching, you want to sort of like talk about why you want to sort of like talk about why you want to sort of like talk about why leadership, why church leadership, why leadership, why church leadership, why leadership, why church leadership, why being being a clergy person would make being being a clergy person would make being being a clergy person would make sense, why seminary education matters, sense, why seminary education matters, sense, why seminary education matters, why being trained to be in ministry, and why being trained to be in ministry, and why being trained to be in ministry, and why also God works through every why also God works through every why also God works through every everybody, right? everybody, right? everybody, right? >> So um but I think this is one of the >> So um but I think this is one of the >> So um but I think this is one of the real real crisis of the pipeline of the real real crisis of the pipeline of the real real crisis of the pipeline of the church. So, one of the things we've been church. So, one of the things we've been church. So, one of the things we've been concluding that this this is a huge concluding that this this is a huge concluding that this this is a huge issue and and Bara has been increasingly issue and and Bara has been increasingly issue and and Bara has been increasingly committed to making sure that the church committed to making sure that the church committed to making sure that the church does not run out of leaders and that does not run out of leaders and that does not run out of leaders and that we're actually giving giving people a we're actually giving giving people a we're actually giving giving people a sense of where leadership would work. sense of where leadership would work. sense of where leadership would work. How would even in college ministry and How would even in college ministry and How would even in college ministry and youth ministry uh people be uh awakened youth ministry uh people be uh awakened youth ministry uh people be uh awakened to that work? Um and and so could we to that work? Um and and so could we to that work? Um and and so could we give, give, give, >> you know, the the path the the just >> you know, the the path the the just >> you know, the the path the the just concrete examples? I mean, you might concrete examples? I mean, you might concrete examples? I mean, you might even want to do like a series on like even want to do like a series on like even want to do like a series on like the future of of church ministry and why the future of of church ministry and why the future of of church ministry and why that's so important.

that's so important. that's so important. >> That's a really good idea. I think we >> That's a really good idea. I think we >> That's a really good idea. I think we need to because one of the other things need to because one of the other things need to because one of the other things I noted in the church trends report this I noted in the church trends report this I noted in the church trends report this year is and and this was around the year is and and this was around the year is and and this was around the issue of women, but it's also around the issue of women, but it's also around the issue of women, but it's also around the issue of young adults as well. If you issue of young adults as well. If you issue of young adults as well. If you expand the lens a little bit, like a lot expand the lens a little bit, like a lot expand the lens a little bit, like a lot of women, because they're sometimes not of women, because they're sometimes not of women, because they're sometimes not accepted in leadership, are having to go accepted in leadership, are having to go accepted in leadership, are having to go outside. Um, you know, you think about outside. Um, you know, you think about outside. Um, you know, you think about Beth Moore, an incredible ministry, Lisa Beth Moore, an incredible ministry, Lisa Beth Moore, an incredible ministry, Lisa Turkers and Vos Camp, like there was a Turkers and Vos Camp, like there was a Turkers and Vos Camp, like there was a generation of church leaders who didn't generation of church leaders who didn't generation of church leaders who didn't really fit in the church and so they really fit in the church and so they really fit in the church and so they launched these massive ministries. Jenny launched these massive ministries. Jenny launched these massive ministries. Jenny Allen, too. But you look at the 20 and Allen, too. But you look at the 20 and Allen, too. But you look at the 20 and 30 year olds coming up. It's the same 30 year olds coming up. It's the same 30 year olds coming up. It's the same thing. They're writing books. They thing. They're writing books. They thing. They're writing books. They they've got podcasts. They're speakers. they've got podcasts. They're speakers. they've got podcasts. They're speakers. >> And the church isn't really a good >> And the church isn't really a good >> And the church isn't really a good vessel for that. But that's also true of vessel for that. But that's also true of vessel for that. But that's also true of young entrepreneurs. If you look at the young entrepreneurs. If you look at the young entrepreneurs. If you look at the next generation, they're going direct to next generation, they're going direct to next generation, they're going direct to camera. They're going on the streets. camera. They're going on the streets. camera. They're going on the streets. They're building their own platforms. They're building their own platforms. They're building their own platforms. And I mean, And I mean, And I mean, >> part of that's awesome. Yeah. >> part of that's awesome. Yeah. >> part of that's awesome. Yeah. >> And part of that is like, who's thinking >> And part of that is like, who's thinking >> And part of that is like, who's thinking about pastoring churches?

about pastoring churches? about pastoring churches? >> But I also, you know, caution because I >> But I also, you know, caution because I >> But I also, you know, caution because I I stepped out of the lead pastor role I stepped out of the lead pastor role I stepped out of the lead pastor role over 10 years ago now, which is crazy. I over 10 years ago now, which is crazy. I over 10 years ago now, which is crazy. I turned 50. Like, time to tap it out. Now turned 50. Like, time to tap it out. Now turned 50. Like, time to tap it out. Now here here I am. I thought a lot more here here I am. I thought a lot more here here I am. I thought a lot more people would go in this decade. But here people would go in this decade. But here people would go in this decade. But here I am in my 60s going, "Nope, we still I am in my 60s going, "Nope, we still I am in my 60s going, "Nope, we still have the same problem we had 10 years have the same problem we had 10 years have the same problem we had 10 years ago." But like David, when you were ago." But like David, when you were ago." But like David, when you were young, like you were with George Bara, young, like you were with George Bara, young, like you were with George Bara, he gave you stupid amounts of he gave you stupid amounts of he gave you stupid amounts of responsibility as young David. responsibility as young David. responsibility as young David. >> I was given stupid amounts of >> I was given stupid amounts of >> I was given stupid amounts of responsibility when I was in my 20s and responsibility when I was in my 20s and responsibility when I was in my 20s and 30s in world lead like world leadership. 30s in world lead like world leadership. 30s in world lead like world leadership. That's no, that's not what I meant. That's no, that's not what I meant. That's no, that's not what I meant. >> Leadership in the marketplace, but also >> Leadership in the marketplace, but also >> Leadership in the marketplace, but also leadership in the church. which I was leadership in the church. which I was leadership in the church. which I was given a lot of responsibility. I don't given a lot of responsibility. I don't given a lot of responsibility. I don't know that our generation is as good at know that our generation is as good at know that our generation is as good at flipping those keys over as flipping those keys over as flipping those keys over as >> previous generations. >> previous generations. >> previous generations. >> I think that's true. And uh I think >> I think that's true. And uh I think >> I think that's true. And uh I think pastors are actually some somewhat pastors are actually some somewhat pastors are actually some somewhat self-aware about this. We we did a study self-aware about this. We we did a study self-aware about this. We we did a study where we asked people where we asked people where we asked people >> um pastors about their concerns about >> um pastors about their concerns about >> um pastors about their concerns about leadership development. They they have a leadership development. They they have a leadership development. They they have a lot of concerns about the next lot of concerns about the next lot of concerns about the next generation of leaders. There is data to generation of leaders. There is data to generation of leaders. There is data to prove that they have a lack of prove that they have a lack of prove that they have a lack of confidence in uh in the next generation.

confidence in uh in the next generation. confidence in uh in the next generation. >> So do you know why? But what what are >> So do you know why? But what what are >> So do you know why? But what what are they worried about? What are we worried they worried about? What are we worried they worried about? What are we worried about? about? about? >> You know, I I I don't know. I >> You know, I I I don't know. I >> You know, I I I don't know. I >> Yeah. I don't have confidence. >> Yeah. I don't have confidence. >> Yeah. I don't have confidence. >> Yeah. And and so we ask people like, >> Yeah. And and so we ask people like, >> Yeah. And and so we ask people like, "For my church to be healthy, we need to "For my church to be healthy, we need to "For my church to be healthy, we need to have a lot of lay leaders. We need a lot have a lot of lay leaders. We need a lot have a lot of lay leaders. We need a lot of leadership development programs." of leadership development programs." of leadership development programs." Well, how is your church doing it? And Well, how is your church doing it? And Well, how is your church doing it? And it's like one in 20 churches say, "I'm it's like one in 20 churches say, "I'm it's like one in 20 churches say, "I'm doing a good job at leadership doing a good job at leadership doing a good job at leadership development." So, it's not even just development." So, it's not even just development." So, it's not even just succession planning, but leadership succession planning, but leadership succession planning, but leadership development, a pipeline of leaders. development, a pipeline of leaders. development, a pipeline of leaders. >> So, one in 20 are saying they're good at >> So, one in 20 are saying they're good at >> So, one in 20 are saying they're good at leadership development. leadership development. leadership development. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. That's a that's something. Okay, >> Yeah. That's a that's something. Okay, >> Yeah. That's a that's something. Okay, thanks for giving me another job this thanks for giving me another job this thanks for giving me another job this year. Like I'm gonna have to drill down year. Like I'm gonna have to drill down year. Like I'm gonna have to drill down on that. Like because I thought there on that. Like because I thought there on that. Like because I thought there was always volunteer recruitment, but it was always volunteer recruitment, but it was always volunteer recruitment, but it really goes into nextgen leadership as really goes into nextgen leadership as really goes into nextgen leadership as well. well. well. >> I do think that there is a a set of >> I do think that there is a a set of >> I do think that there is a a set of questions around um millennial and gen questions around um millennial and gen questions around um millennial and gen Z. You know, they are approaching work Z. You know, they are approaching work Z. You know, they are approaching work differently. They are they're differently. They are they're differently. They are they're approaching the workplace differently, approaching the workplace differently, approaching the workplace differently, the work life balance. Um but but the work life balance. Um but but the work life balance. Um but but there's some deeper questions around there's some deeper questions around there's some deeper questions around what does leadership mean? How would we what does leadership mean? How would we what does leadership mean? How would we prepare someone? The kind of mentoring prepare someone? The kind of mentoring prepare someone? The kind of mentoring that's required, the kind of giving away that's required, the kind of giving away that's required, the kind of giving away stupid amounts of leadership stupid amounts of leadership stupid amounts of leadership responsibility that might make you as responsibility that might make you as responsibility that might make you as the senior leader look badly. So I do the senior leader look badly. So I do the senior leader look badly. So I do think this is a this is a um it's kind think this is a this is a um it's kind think this is a this is a um it's kind of like you know heart disease that of like you know heart disease that of like you know heart disease that silent killer. This is going to be the silent killer. This is going to be the silent killer. This is going to be the silent killer of the church.

silent killer of the church. silent killer of the church. >> Did you ever get when you were at Bara, >> Did you ever get when you were at Bara, >> Did you ever get when you were at Bara, how old were you when you started with how old were you when you started with how old were you when you started with George? George? George? >> Uh 21. >> Uh 21. >> Uh 21. >> 21. Okay. So this is this is a great >> 21. Okay. So this is this is a great >> 21. Okay. So this is this is a great question was can you think of a time question was can you think of a time question was can you think of a time just to get real practical because I just to get real practical because I just to get real practical because I mean when I was 25 the the year I worked mean when I was 25 the the year I worked mean when I was 25 the the year I worked for a law firm they it was a small firm for a law firm they it was a small firm for a law firm they it was a small firm downtown Toronto they gave me the job of downtown Toronto they gave me the job of downtown Toronto they gave me the job of a three or four year associate it's like a three or four year associate it's like a three or four year associate it's like you're going to court and I was in court you're going to court and I was in court you're going to court and I was in court almost every day nobody prepped me for almost every day nobody prepped me for almost every day nobody prepped me for court I had to figure out the game like court I had to figure out the game like court I had to figure out the game like on day one it's like how does this work on day one it's like how does this work on day one it's like how does this work I mean you take civil procedure I mean you take civil procedure I mean you take civil procedure you learn it you learn how to argue in a you learn it you learn how to argue in a you learn it you learn how to argue in a mock court, but like then you're in real mock court, but like then you're in real mock court, but like then you're in real court. You have an actual client, a real court. You have an actual client, a real court. You have an actual client, a real judge. You can be in big trouble if you judge. You can be in big trouble if you judge. You can be in big trouble if you lose the case. So, guess what? I learned lose the case. So, guess what? I learned lose the case. So, guess what? I learned how to argue in court. Like, you learn. how to argue in court. Like, you learn. how to argue in court. Like, you learn. What did George do for you? Like, those What did George do for you? Like, those What did George do for you? Like, those the partners threw me into that. Yeah. the partners threw me into that. Yeah. the partners threw me into that. Yeah. >> And I'm like, what were you thinking? >> And I'm like, what were you thinking? >> And I'm like, what were you thinking? >> Well, uh I have way too many stories for >> Well, uh I have way too many stories for >> Well, uh I have way too many stories for that because I got thrown into the deep that because I got thrown into the deep that because I got thrown into the deep end, I feel like, so regularly. But one end, I feel like, so regularly. But one end, I feel like, so regularly. But one one of them was just the day one uh one of them was just the day one uh one of them was just the day one uh actually running the phone interview actually running the phone interview actually running the phone interview center and all of the you know 30 high center and all of the you know 30 high center and all of the you know 30 high school and college students and just school and college students and just school and college students and just literally trying to like keep up and I literally trying to like keep up and I literally trying to like keep up and I realized I was like overly detailed. I realized I was like overly detailed. I realized I was like overly detailed. I was I needed to like let the room do the was I needed to like let the room do the was I needed to like let the room do the things and like just like quarterback things and like just like quarterback things and like just like quarterback the room rather than try to micromanage the room rather than try to micromanage the room rather than try to micromanage the room. So that was like day one. Um the room. So that was like day one. Um the room. So that was like day one. Um >> so day one he threw you into like >> so day one he threw you into like >> so day one he threw you into like >> just [clears throat] the data >> just [clears throat] the data >> just [clears throat] the data collection. I was running the phone collection. I was running the phone collection. I was running the phone center that was collecting poll all the center that was collecting poll all the center that was collecting poll all the phone interviews across. So, if you got phone interviews across. So, if you got phone interviews across. So, if you got that wrong, the data was wrong.

that wrong, the data was wrong. that wrong, the data was wrong. >> Uh, no, it was it was it was just um I >> Uh, no, it was it was it was just um I >> Uh, no, it was it was it was just um I might have lost the job because you had might have lost the job because you had might have lost the job because you had to be able to like actually run a phone to be able to like actually run a phone to be able to like actually run a phone room and like, you know, I was just it room and like, you know, I was just it room and like, you know, I was just it was basically just babysitting these was basically just babysitting these was basically just babysitting these these, these, these, >> right? So, he wasn't putting you saying >> right? So, he wasn't putting you saying >> right? So, he wasn't putting you saying go make me five photo copies of this. go make me five photo copies of this. go make me five photo copies of this. >> No, but it was like I was there was and >> No, but it was like I was there was and >> No, but it was like I was there was and there was no training. No, no training. there was no training. No, no training. there was no training. No, no training. No training. [laughter] No training. [laughter] No training. [laughter] Classic classic early job. And then um Classic classic early job. And then um Classic classic early job. And then um the um the other thing that remind that the um the other thing that remind that the um the other thing that remind that reminds the first couple months of of reminds the first couple months of of reminds the first couple months of of working there full-time because when I working there full-time because when I working there full-time because when I started in the phone room it was just started in the phone room it was just started in the phone room it was just part-time but when I started full-time part-time but when I started full-time part-time but when I started full-time um the first was that I he was like hey um the first was that I he was like hey um the first was that I he was like hey you know focus on the family radio is you know focus on the family radio is you know focus on the family radio is going to call and do a telephone going to call and do a telephone going to call and do a telephone interview you know here's your here's interview you know here's your here's interview you know here's your here's your press release and it was just like your press release and it was just like your press release and it was just like and I just remember thinking wow I'm and I just remember thinking wow I'm and I just remember thinking wow I'm going to be on the radio and you know he going to be on the radio and you know he going to be on the radio and you know he it was like I was 22 and seven days kind it was like I was 22 and seven days kind it was like I was 22 and seven days kind of deal you know and talking about the of deal you know and talking about the of deal you know and talking about the trends and trends and trends and >> so you're on the radio focus on the You >> so you're on the radio focus on the You >> so you're on the radio focus on the You put me on the radio. Yeah. put me on the radio. Yeah. put me on the radio. Yeah. >> Which is a big deal. >> Which is a big deal. >> Which is a big deal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy, you know, and I I I I love >> That's crazy, you know, and I I I I love >> That's crazy, you know, and I I I I love that and I think you hinted at something that and I think you hinted at something that and I think you hinted at something and I want to get to AI and maybe any and I want to get to AI and maybe any and I want to get to AI and maybe any other thoughts you have, other thoughts you have, other thoughts you have, >> but like I think we look at that and we >> but like I think we look at that and we >> but like I think we look at that and we have a particular way of doing church have a particular way of doing church have a particular way of doing church and it's like, well, you know, this is a and it's like, well, you know, this is a and it's like, well, you know, this is a YouTuber with like 100,000 subscribers.

YouTuber with like 100,000 subscribers. YouTuber with like 100,000 subscribers. I don't have a category for that. I don't have a category for that. I don't have a category for that. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Right. But they started like you and I >> Right. But they started like you and I >> Right. But they started like you and I did. Me and Court, you with Focus on the did. Me and Court, you with Focus on the did. Me and Court, you with Focus on the Family. Here you go. Just figure it out. Family. Here you go. Just figure it out. Family. Here you go. Just figure it out. Right. And guess what? they figured it Right. And guess what? they figured it Right. And guess what? they figured it out. They grew it to 100,000 subscribers out. They grew it to 100,000 subscribers out. They grew it to 100,000 subscribers or 10,000 or a million followers or or 10,000 or a million followers or or 10,000 or a million followers or whatever. And we only have categories of whatever. And we only have categories of whatever. And we only have categories of well, you can park cars or run the well, you can park cars or run the well, you can park cars or run the soundboard or, you know, and and even soundboard or, you know, and and even soundboard or, you know, and and even seminary. I mean, I'm not throwing seminary. I mean, I'm not throwing seminary. I mean, I'm not throwing seminaries under the bus, but the model seminaries under the bus, but the model seminaries under the bus, but the model is broken. is broken. is broken. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We got to figure out how do we educate >> We got to figure out how do we educate >> We got to figure out how do we educate people? Well, people? Well, people? Well, >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> When when you can't just disappear for >> When when you can't just disappear for >> When when you can't just disappear for four or five years. And part of part of four or five years. And part of part of four or five years. And part of part of what I think could be hopeful vision for what I think could be hopeful vision for what I think could be hopeful vision for seminaries and seminary theological seminaries and seminary theological seminaries and seminary theological education um is is what I mentioned education um is is what I mentioned education um is is what I mentioned earlier that it's it's like every earlier that it's it's like every earlier that it's it's like every Christian needs a a kind of seminary Christian needs a a kind of seminary Christian needs a a kind of seminary education to live effectively in the education to live effectively in the education to live effectively in the world to understand world to understand world to understand >> you know the you know to to have the uh >> you know the you know to to have the uh >> you know the you know to to have the uh the house in which you live has to have the house in which you live has to have the house in which you live has to have four walls and a roof and and we're kind four walls and a roof and and we're kind four walls and a roof and and we're kind of like we're getting people converted of like we're getting people converted of like we're getting people converted but we're kind of putting them in like but we're kind of putting them in like but we're kind of putting them in like in just like a paper bag to go live in just like a paper bag to go live in just like a paper bag to go live their life. We need to help them their life. We need to help them their life. We need to help them construct a way of seeing and construct a way of seeing and construct a way of seeing and understanding the world that helps them understanding the world that helps them understanding the world that helps them against the battering winds of the world against the battering winds of the world against the battering winds of the world of the of algorithmic disciplehip. And of the of algorithmic disciplehip. And of the of algorithmic disciplehip. And so the only way you can do that is to so the only way you can do that is to so the only way you can do that is to give them daily bread and then also to give them daily bread and then also to give them daily bread and then also to construct a home around them to help a construct a home around them to help a construct a home around them to help a the a theological worldview a the a theological worldview a the a theological worldview a theological framework. So I think you theological framework. So I think you theological framework. So I think you know it's sort of like it's an know it's sort of like it's an know it's sort of like it's an opportunity to bring um a type of opportunity to bring um a type of opportunity to bring um a type of seminary theological education to every seminary theological education to every seminary theological education to every person to to to really know what it is person to to to really know what it is person to to to really know what it is that the Christian claims uh to to that the Christian claims uh to to that the Christian claims uh to to believe. Yeah, boy. We could go in a lot

believe. Yeah, boy. We could go in a lot believe. Yeah, boy. We could go in a lot of directions with that. [laughter] I of directions with that. [laughter] I of directions with that. [laughter] I think I think that's good. I do want to think I think that's good. I do want to think I think that's good. I do want to touch on AI. So, I'm going to be, you touch on AI. So, I'm going to be, you touch on AI. So, I'm going to be, you know, I'm working on a new book on AI in know, I'm working on a new book on AI in know, I'm working on a new book on AI in the future church. Uh, been reading the future church. Uh, been reading the future church. Uh, been reading doing a deep dive and I'm an optimist, doing a deep dive and I'm an optimist, doing a deep dive and I'm an optimist, but like the scenarios that I'm but like the scenarios that I'm but like the scenarios that I'm increasingly thinking are likely or increasingly thinking are likely or increasingly thinking are likely or inevitable are not all coming up roses, inevitable are not all coming up roses, inevitable are not all coming up roses, right? right? right? >> Could be some massive employment loss. I >> Could be some massive employment loss. I >> Could be some massive employment loss. I think, you know, social media has been think, you know, social media has been think, you know, social media has been bad for our mental health. AI is going bad for our mental health. AI is going bad for our mental health. AI is going to be worse. to be worse. to be worse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's going to make social media look >> And it's going to make social media look >> And it's going to make social media look like the kiddie pool. We already know like the kiddie pool. We already know like the kiddie pool. We already know about chat bots you can create that you about chat bots you can create that you about chat bots you can create that you can have a sexual relationship with. You can have a sexual relationship with. You can have a sexual relationship with. You know, people talk about a three-way know, people talk about a three-way know, people talk about a three-way marriage now where it's like me, my marriage now where it's like me, my marriage now where it's like me, my wife, and my AI. Is that cheating? I wife, and my AI. Is that cheating? I wife, and my AI. Is that cheating? I don't know. Porn has been an issue for don't know. Porn has been an issue for don't know. Porn has been an issue for decades. AI chatbots with whom you have decades. AI chatbots with whom you have decades. AI chatbots with whom you have a sexual relationship. a sexual relationship. a sexual relationship. Wow. Right. like who know everything Wow. Right. like who know everything Wow. Right. like who know everything about you and you know there's no about you and you know there's no about you and you know there's no regulation around it and unlikely to be regulation around it and unlikely to be regulation around it and unlikely to be and you can criticize the government for and you can criticize the government for and you can criticize the government for that but if the US doesn't win the race that but if the US doesn't win the race that but if the US doesn't win the race China will then what does the world look China will then what does the world look China will then what does the world look like the problems just stack right and I like the problems just stack right and I like the problems just stack right and I think I I I I'm thinking of it as a a think I I I I'm thinking of it as a a think I I I I'm thinking of it as a a series of potential cascading crises series of potential cascading crises series of potential cascading crises yeah yeah yeah >> I'm just wondering what you're tracking >> I'm just wondering what you're tracking >> I'm just wondering what you're tracking on AI what you're seeing I'm getting on AI what you're seeing I'm getting on AI what you're seeing I'm getting ahead of myself here in the questioning ahead of myself here in the questioning ahead of myself here in the questioning because I've been I've been in a deep because I've been I've been in a deep because I've been I've been in a deep dive man a real deep dive Maybe a rabbit dive man a real deep dive Maybe a rabbit dive man a real deep dive Maybe a rabbit hole of the internet.

hole of the internet. hole of the internet. >> All right, so listeners, we need we need >> All right, so listeners, we need we need >> All right, so listeners, we need we need Carrie to come back out. He's got his Carrie to come back out. He's got his Carrie to come back out. He's got his He's got his his foil his foil helmet He's got his his foil his foil helmet He's got his his foil his foil helmet on. [laughter] on. [laughter] on. [laughter] >> That's right. That's right. You should >> That's right. That's right. You should >> That's right. That's right. You should see the basement in this place. We're see the basement in this place. We're see the basement in this place. We're ready. Okay, we're ready. ready. Okay, we're ready. ready. Okay, we're ready. >> No, I mean I I hope I'm wrong. I I'm I'm >> No, I mean I I hope I'm wrong. I I'm I'm >> No, I mean I I hope I'm wrong. I I'm I'm an optimist, but hey, God God knows an optimist, but hey, God God knows an optimist, but hey, God God knows what's coming down the pipe, but I I what's coming down the pipe, but I I what's coming down the pipe, but I I want to help get the church ready for want to help get the church ready for want to help get the church ready for what we might see in the next few years. what we might see in the next few years. what we might see in the next few years. >> Yeah. No, I I I tend to agree. I haven't >> Yeah. No, I I I tend to agree. I haven't >> Yeah. No, I I I tend to agree. I haven't done maybe the deep dive you have, but done maybe the deep dive you have, but done maybe the deep dive you have, but from a um how has the last 30 years of from a um how has the last 30 years of from a um how has the last 30 years of digital Babylon unfolded? Uh the the digital Babylon unfolded? Uh the the digital Babylon unfolded? Uh the the pace is quickening. The tools are uh are pace is quickening. The tools are uh are pace is quickening. The tools are uh are are are are uh ma magic. They're there. It's it is uh ma magic. They're there. It's it is uh ma magic. They're there. It's it is the kinds of things that are um you know the kinds of things that are um you know the kinds of things that are um you know almost like you couldn't you couldn't almost like you couldn't you couldn't almost like you couldn't you couldn't write the sub as science fiction, you write the sub as science fiction, you write the sub as science fiction, you know, and and people have written a lot know, and and people have written a lot know, and and people have written a lot of science fiction, right? of science fiction, right? of science fiction, right? >> Um so a couple thoughts. one um thanks >> Um so a couple thoughts. one um thanks >> Um so a couple thoughts. one um thanks for writing the book and for leading the for writing the book and for leading the for writing the book and for leading the church in this way. It's an important church in this way. It's an important church in this way. It's an important one. We've been working with our friends one. We've been working with our friends one. We've been working with our friends and partners at Glue on some of the and partners at Glue on some of the and partners at Glue on some of the church and the AI and social research.

church and the AI and social research. church and the AI and social research. So, So, So, >> and we're trying to do you know with our >> and we're trying to do you know with our >> and we're trying to do you know with our partners at Glue AI for good. It's like partners at Glue AI for good. It's like partners at Glue AI for good. It's like open AI and anthropic don't have to have open AI and anthropic don't have to have open AI and anthropic don't have to have monopoly on AI that's created and if monopoly on AI that's created and if monopoly on AI that's created and if >> you know I agree with Mustafa Sleman >> you know I agree with Mustafa Sleman >> you know I agree with Mustafa Sleman that the the best critics are the that the the best critics are the that the the best critics are the creators. creators. creators. >> Yeah. And to that, we need the next >> Yeah. And to that, we need the next >> Yeah. And to that, we need the next generation of coders and software generation of coders and software generation of coders and software developers and entrepreneurs to try to developers and entrepreneurs to try to developers and entrepreneurs to try to do tech for good. We need that. We need do tech for good. We need that. We need do tech for good. We need that. We need the 19-year-old coding in his basement the 19-year-old coding in his basement the 19-year-old coding in his basement to to show up. Yeah. to to show up. Yeah. to to show up. Yeah. >> Even as coding is changing. So, yeah, >> Even as coding is changing. So, yeah, >> Even as coding is changing. So, yeah, I'm I'm with you on that. I'm I'm with you on that. I'm I'm with you on that. >> Yeah. So, I think there'll be um I I'm I >> Yeah. So, I think there'll be um I I'm I >> Yeah. So, I think there'll be um I I'm I sort of I think we're probably pretty sort of I think we're probably pretty sort of I think we're probably pretty similarly in disposition. We're both similarly in disposition. We're both similarly in disposition. We're both optimistic, don't give into cynicism, optimistic, don't give into cynicism, optimistic, don't give into cynicism, but trying to be realistic about the the but trying to be realistic about the the but trying to be realistic about the the threats and challenges. And so I would threats and challenges. And so I would threats and challenges. And so I would say there's a a a real opportunity uh say there's a a a real opportunity uh say there's a a a real opportunity uh and challenge to the church as an and challenge to the church as an and challenge to the church as an essential community essential community essential community >> because first of all AI kinds of it >> because first of all AI kinds of it >> because first of all AI kinds of it gives a a a much more blurry line gives a a a much more blurry line gives a a a much more blurry line between truth and distortion. between truth and distortion. between truth and distortion. >> Yeah. Fakes >> Yeah. Fakes >> Yeah. Fakes >> and it gives a an even like if if it was >> and it gives a an even like if if it was >> and it gives a an even like if if it was the gospel according to YouTube and the gospel according to YouTube and the gospel according to YouTube and disciplehip screens disciple then that disciplehip screens disciple then that disciplehip screens disciple then that will only be more the case. disciplehip will only be more the case. disciplehip will only be more the case. disciplehip according to the the Chad GBT Jesus and according to the the Chad GBT Jesus and according to the the Chad GBT Jesus and you know the the both the things that you know the the both the things that you know the the both the things that are you know like it's a powerful tool.

are you know like it's a powerful tool. are you know like it's a powerful tool. It can give you great summaries of of a It can give you great summaries of of a It can give you great summaries of of a lot of things that are true. It can also lot of things that are true. It can also lot of things that are true. It can also be a little off and like where your be a little off and like where your be a little off and like where your source your source material like what do source your source material like what do source your source material like what do you what do you um uh trust and all that you what do you um uh trust and all that you what do you um uh trust and all that but um I also think this notion of I I but um I also think this notion of I I but um I also think this notion of I I kind of alluded to earlier of the chat kind of alluded to earlier of the chat kind of alluded to earlier of the chat GPT and these tools being a kind of the GPT and these tools being a kind of the GPT and these tools being a kind of the therapy a kind of best friend. you therapy a kind of best friend. you therapy a kind of best friend. you talked about sort of even like romantic talked about sort of even like romantic talked about sort of even like romantic and and you know kind of a best friend and and you know kind of a best friend and and you know kind of a best friend partnership. People are just so alone partnership. People are just so alone partnership. People are just so alone and these tools offer a kind of a and these tools offer a kind of a and these tools offer a kind of a narcissistic mirror of looking at narcissistic mirror of looking at narcissistic mirror of looking at ourselves of kind of creating a kind of ourselves of kind of creating a kind of ourselves of kind of creating a kind of relationship with exactly what we want relationship with exactly what we want relationship with exactly what we want out of it. And so I think we have a a out of it. And so I think we have a a out of it. And so I think we have a a lot of challenges that come with that. lot of challenges that come with that. lot of challenges that come with that. Um, I've been saying for a while that I Um, I've been saying for a while that I Um, I've been saying for a while that I think that uh we should have a theology think that uh we should have a theology think that uh we should have a theology of dystopian fiction and even just to be of dystopian fiction and even just to be of dystopian fiction and even just to be an example of like youth ministry and an example of like youth ministry and an example of like youth ministry and other kinds of of um more like a other kinds of of um more like a other kinds of of um more like a learning opportunity would be like oh learning opportunity would be like oh learning opportunity would be like oh let's look at let's look and watch at let's look at let's look and watch at let's look at let's look and watch at these different films and and novels and these different films and and novels and these different films and and novels and what have they told us about the end what have they told us about the end what have they told us about the end times and how people think the world times and how people think the world times and how people think the world might end. I actually think this might end. I actually think this might end. I actually think this conversation around um you know Jesus conversation around um you know Jesus conversation around um you know Jesus returning and and uh the end times and returning and and uh the end times and returning and and uh the end times and dystopian like why is this so compelling dystopian like why is this so compelling dystopian like why is this so compelling to younger generations? Oh because we to younger generations? Oh because we to younger generations? Oh because we are living in a kind of world where uh are living in a kind of world where uh are living in a kind of world where uh it it turns out that corruption and it it turns out that corruption and it it turns out that corruption and technology and global forces beyond our technology and global forces beyond our technology and global forces beyond our uh understanding or you know the uh understanding or you know the uh understanding or you know the Shakespearean tragedy of the very things Shakespearean tragedy of the very things Shakespearean tragedy of the very things you do to try to protect yourself become you do to try to protect yourself become you do to try to protect yourself become the things that become your undoing. you the things that become your undoing. you the things that become your undoing. you know, and I and I and I think we just know, and I and I and I think we just know, and I and I and I think we just need a deeper theology of understanding,

need a deeper theology of understanding, need a deeper theology of understanding, you know, God's ultimately in control. you know, God's ultimately in control. you know, God's ultimately in control. Um, the gospel gives us a better way to Um, the gospel gives us a better way to Um, the gospel gives us a better way to be human. We are resurrection people. We be human. We are resurrection people. We be human. We are resurrection people. We can be a learning community under the can be a learning community under the can be a learning community under the authority of scripture in light of Jesus authority of scripture in light of Jesus authority of scripture in light of Jesus resurrection and uh and and actually to resurrection and uh and and actually to resurrection and uh and and actually to go into this with like like with real go into this with like like with real go into this with like like with real strength and energy to become what God strength and energy to become what God strength and energy to become what God is calling us in this era of of AI. It's is calling us in this era of of AI. It's is calling us in this era of of AI. It's a it's going to be a fun challenge, but a it's going to be a fun challenge, but a it's going to be a fun challenge, but but I'm up for it. but I'm up for it. but I'm up for it. >> Yeah, I'm up for it, too. And I think, >> Yeah, I'm up for it, too. And I think, >> Yeah, I'm up for it, too. And I think, you know, at the end, you know, if it's you know, at the end, you know, if it's you know, at the end, you know, if it's not good news, you haven't got the not good news, you haven't got the not good news, you haven't got the gospel right. Like it all it all works gospel right. Like it all it all works gospel right. Like it all it all works out well. But that doesn't mean that out well. But that doesn't mean that out well. But that doesn't mean that there isn't some dislocation in the there isn't some dislocation in the there isn't some dislocation in the process. I remember David the first time process. I remember David the first time process. I remember David the first time I think you and I talked about a survey I think you and I talked about a survey I think you and I talked about a survey that Bara did. This might be in 2023, so that Bara did. This might be in 2023, so that Bara did. This might be in 2023, so 6 months into chat GPT. What are you 6 months into chat GPT. What are you 6 months into chat GPT. What are you feeling about AI? Right. And it was like feeling about AI? Right. And it was like feeling about AI? Right. And it was like 68% had a negative view. Also, 68% had 68% had a negative view. Also, 68% had 68% had a negative view. Also, 68% had never used it, right? Right. [laughter] never used it, right? Right. [laughter] never used it, right? Right. [laughter] So, So, So, >> it was kind of an interesting data >> it was kind of an interesting data >> it was kind of an interesting data point. Have you seen um church leader point. Have you seen um church leader point. Have you seen um church leader attitude shift at all toward artificial attitude shift at all toward artificial attitude shift at all toward artificial intelligence over the last few years? I intelligence over the last few years? I intelligence over the last few years? I know it's not a a major tracking that know it's not a a major tracking that know it's not a a major tracking that you're doing, but you probably have you're doing, but you probably have you're doing, but you probably have better pulse on it than most people.

better pulse on it than most people. better pulse on it than most people. >> Yeah, I think church leaders are open to >> Yeah, I think church leaders are open to >> Yeah, I think church leaders are open to using it um for more and more than they using it um for more and more than they using it um for more and more than they were, you know, 12 months ago because were, you know, 12 months ago because were, you know, 12 months ago because the tools are becoming just even more the tools are becoming just even more the tools are becoming just even more accessible accessible accessible >> and baked in everywhere. >> and baked in everywhere. >> and baked in everywhere. >> Yeah. Um, and so I think there's been a, >> Yeah. Um, and so I think there's been a, >> Yeah. Um, and so I think there's been a, you know, 12 to 18 month kind of like, you know, 12 to 18 month kind of like, you know, 12 to 18 month kind of like, oh, okay, this isn't just all good or oh, okay, this isn't just all good or oh, okay, this isn't just all good or all bad, but it's but it's it's a real all bad, but it's but it's it's a real all bad, but it's but it's it's a real tool to do these specific tasks. Um, so tool to do these specific tasks. Um, so tool to do these specific tasks. Um, so church leaders are becoming a little church leaders are becoming a little church leaders are becoming a little more aware of it. Um, one of the more aware of it. Um, one of the more aware of it. Um, one of the interesting survey questions that we had interesting survey questions that we had interesting survey questions that we had asked about a year ago was whether asked about a year ago was whether asked about a year ago was whether people think that AI, God can use AI for people think that AI, God can use AI for people think that AI, God can use AI for good. And um, most older adults say they good. And um, most older adults say they good. And um, most older adults say they don't think so, but younger adults say don't think so, but younger adults say don't think so, but younger adults say they think it could. they think it could. they think it could. >> Wow. And um and you know like I have a >> Wow. And um and you know like I have a >> Wow. And um and you know like I have a good friend whose son went to AI and good friend whose son went to AI and good friend whose son went to AI and ended up finding this really cool ended up finding this really cool ended up finding this really cool overseas missions trip to go on and overseas missions trip to go on and overseas missions trip to go on and become like you know it's like so AI can become like you know it's like so AI can become like you know it's like so AI can like really it can do some vocational like really it can do some vocational like really it can do some vocational guidance guidance guidance >> and you know it's going to give you the >> and you know it's going to give you the >> and you know it's going to give you the full range of options if you give it the full range of options if you give it the full range of options if you give it the right kind of prompt. So like this young right kind of prompt. So like this young right kind of prompt. So like this young man's um you know journey is being being man's um you know journey is being being man's um you know journey is being being affected by using AI. He and his dad affected by using AI. He and his dad affected by using AI. He and his dad talked about you know together what they talked about you know together what they talked about you know together what they were looking for. or they were trying to were looking for. or they were trying to were looking for. or they were trying to search for a certain kind of thing and search for a certain kind of thing and search for a certain kind of thing and AI gave like oh why don't you try these AI gave like oh why don't you try these AI gave like oh why don't you try these three different options and he ended up three different options and he ended up three different options and he ended up going on a kind of like a a long-term um going on a kind of like a a long-term um going on a kind of like a a long-term um missions educational adventure and so missions educational adventure and so missions educational adventure and so you know AI can be used for good um tech you know AI can be used for good um tech you know AI can be used for good um tech technology can be a force for good in technology can be a force for good in technology can be a force for good in our lives we just the church just has to our lives we just the church just has to our lives we just the church just has to be a place where we actually think about be a place where we actually think about be a place where we actually think about stewarding it stewarding it stewarding it >> any other trend that you're watching

>> any other trend that you're watching >> any other trend that you're watching that we haven't talked about today I that we haven't talked about today I that we haven't talked about today I always appreciate your perspective always appreciate your perspective always appreciate your perspective David. David. David. >> Oh, thanks. Uh, well, it's been so fun >> Oh, thanks. Uh, well, it's been so fun >> Oh, thanks. Uh, well, it's been so fun uh this year to to have um something uh this year to to have um something uh this year to to have um something like Good News uh with the with these like Good News uh with the with these like Good News uh with the with these larger trends. You know, we kind of larger trends. You know, we kind of larger trends. You know, we kind of began our our conversation here, but you began our our conversation here, but you began our our conversation here, but you know, 66% of Americans say they've made know, 66% of Americans say they've made know, 66% of Americans say they've made a commitment to Jesus, that's still a commitment to Jesus, that's still a commitment to Jesus, that's still important in their life. That's up from important in their life. That's up from important in their life. That's up from 54% 54% 54% uh just four years ago. So, that's 30 uh just four years ago. So, that's 30 uh just four years ago. So, that's 30 million more Americans who say they're million more Americans who say they're million more Americans who say they're open to Jesus. They're committed to open to Jesus. They're committed to open to Jesus. They're committed to Jesus. As I said a minute ago, 48% of Jesus. As I said a minute ago, 48% of Jesus. As I said a minute ago, 48% of Gen Zers, that's 18 to 26, say that they Gen Zers, that's 18 to 26, say that they Gen Zers, that's 18 to 26, say that they uh are very open to Jesus, but do not uh are very open to Jesus, but do not uh are very open to Jesus, but do not consider themselves to be a Christian. consider themselves to be a Christian. consider themselves to be a Christian. That is something we will be tracking That is something we will be tracking That is something we will be tracking because that means that Jesus is because that means that Jesus is because that means that Jesus is bubbling out of the usual like recycled bubbling out of the usual like recycled bubbling out of the usual like recycled Christians category. Christians category. Christians category. >> Hey, burned out on church, but I'm open >> Hey, burned out on church, but I'm open >> Hey, burned out on church, but I'm open again. Yeah. again. Yeah. again. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's different than that. >> Yeah. It's different than that. >> Yeah. It's different than that. >> Yeah. So there's uh there's some real >> Yeah. So there's uh there's some real >> Yeah. So there's uh there's some real opportunities um among young among opportunities um among young among opportunities um among young among Catholics, self-identified Catholics, Catholics, self-identified Catholics, Catholics, self-identified Catholics, there's been a huge increase in there's been a huge increase in there's been a huge increase in commitment to Jesus, even stronger than commitment to Jesus, even stronger than commitment to Jesus, even stronger than among among Protestants.

among among Protestants. among among Protestants. >> So it shows that it's not just an >> So it shows that it's not just an >> So it shows that it's not just an evangelical or kind of traditional evangelical or kind of traditional evangelical or kind of traditional Protestant experience that actually Protestant experience that actually Protestant experience that actually there's a real return to Jesus um uh you there's a real return to Jesus um uh you there's a real return to Jesus um uh you know even among Catholics and and know even among Catholics and and know even among Catholics and and especially among Catholics. There's just especially among Catholics. There's just especially among Catholics. There's just good news breaking out all over. And good news breaking out all over. And good news breaking out all over. And let's keep praying that God will use let's keep praying that God will use let's keep praying that God will use that and that we would be good stewards that and that we would be good stewards that and that we would be good stewards of these next few years so that in 5 of these next few years so that in 5 of these next few years so that in 5 years, 10 years time, those who have years, 10 years time, those who have years, 10 years time, those who have been influenced by Jesus would not come been influenced by Jesus would not come been influenced by Jesus would not come back and say, "I'm an ex-Christian. I'm back and say, "I'm an ex-Christian. I'm back and say, "I'm an ex-Christian. I'm an exJesus follower. It didn't work out an exJesus follower. It didn't work out an exJesus follower. It didn't work out for me. I bought the t-shirt. I'm I'm for me. I bought the t-shirt. I'm I'm for me. I bought the t-shirt. I'm I'm out." Instead, let's do careful, out." Instead, let's do careful, out." Instead, let's do careful, thoughtful, relational work that gives thoughtful, relational work that gives thoughtful, relational work that gives people a chance to live into the hope of people a chance to live into the hope of people a chance to live into the hope of the resurrection. the resurrection. the resurrection. Well, you know, and I I would just say Well, you know, and I I would just say Well, you know, and I I would just say maybe a final word for church leaders maybe a final word for church leaders maybe a final word for church leaders watching, listening, teams watching and watching, listening, teams watching and watching, listening, teams watching and listening is this is an opportunity not listening is this is an opportunity not listening is this is an opportunity not for retreat, but an advance. There are for retreat, but an advance. There are for retreat, but an advance. There are trends that we haven't seen or thought trends that we haven't seen or thought trends that we haven't seen or thought we would see in our lifetime. No we would see in our lifetime. No we would see in our lifetime. No >> that are happening. >> that are happening. >> that are happening. >> The data is mixed. You know, it's always >> The data is mixed. You know, it's always >> The data is mixed. You know, it's always it's always a little less than you want it's always a little less than you want it's always a little less than you want on this side of heaven.

on this side of heaven. on this side of heaven. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> for sure. But like you're doing >> for sure. But like you're doing >> for sure. But like you're doing incredible work. We're in your corner incredible work. We're in your corner incredible work. We're in your corner 100%. and David, I just appreciate our 100%. and David, I just appreciate our 100%. and David, I just appreciate our partnership so much. So, if people want partnership so much. So, if people want partnership so much. So, if people want more, you can go to churchtrends.com. more, you can go to churchtrends.com. more, you can go to churchtrends.com. There's stateoftheurch.com. You go to There's stateoftheurch.com. You go to There's stateoftheurch.com. You go to 2026urch trends.com and uh that'll lead 2026urch trends.com and uh that'll lead 2026urch trends.com and uh that'll lead you more into our research. you more into our research. you more into our research. >> So, anything else you want to direct >> So, anything else you want to direct >> So, anything else you want to direct people toward? people toward? people toward? >> Uh, well, we'd love to have you >> Uh, well, we'd love to have you >> Uh, well, we'd love to have you subscribe to our free email newsletter subscribe to our free email newsletter subscribe to our free email newsletter called uh the Barnett Update, and that's called uh the Barnett Update, and that's called uh the Barnett Update, and that's at barnet.com. So, um we we give give at barnet.com. So, um we we give give at barnet.com. So, um we we give give quite a bit away and we'd love to have quite a bit away and we'd love to have quite a bit away and we'd love to have people subscribe to our uh Barn Access people subscribe to our uh Barn Access people subscribe to our uh Barn Access if they're interested. But if they're interested. But if they're interested. But >> we love serving alongside you. >> we love serving alongside you. >> we love serving alongside you. >> Um we are um pursuing hard this vision. >> Um we are um pursuing hard this vision. >> Um we are um pursuing hard this vision. I like that with those words to advance I like that with those words to advance I like that with those words to advance not retreat of of preparing the church not retreat of of preparing the church not retreat of of preparing the church for this moment. You know, Jesus says to for this moment. You know, Jesus says to for this moment. You know, Jesus says to uh to pray to the Lord of the harvest uh to pray to the Lord of the harvest uh to pray to the Lord of the harvest because the harvest is great but the because the harvest is great but the because the harvest is great but the workers are few. And uh in Matthew, that workers are few. And uh in Matthew, that workers are few. And uh in Matthew, that particular section of the of of of particular section of the of of of particular section of the of of of Matthew's recounting of Jesus saying Matthew's recounting of Jesus saying Matthew's recounting of Jesus saying that um there's two other times in two that um there's two other times in two that um there's two other times in two of the other gospels where where Jesus of the other gospels where where Jesus of the other gospels where where Jesus is quoted as saying the harvest is white is quoted as saying the harvest is white is quoted as saying the harvest is white and the harvest is ready and pray for and the harvest is ready and pray for and the harvest is ready and pray for the harvest. But in Matthew gives the the harvest. But in Matthew gives the the harvest. But in Matthew gives the context where uh it says that Jesus saw context where uh it says that Jesus saw context where uh it says that Jesus saw the crowds and he had compassion on them the crowds and he had compassion on them the crowds and he had compassion on them because they [clears throat] were because they [clears throat] were because they [clears throat] were helpless.

helpless. helpless. >> Harassed and helpless. >> Harassed and helpless. >> Harassed and helpless. >> Harassed and helpless without a >> Harassed and helpless without a >> Harassed and helpless without a shepherd. shepherd. shepherd. >> That's right. And so uh don't grow weary >> That's right. And so uh don't grow weary >> That's right. And so uh don't grow weary because it is a it is a hard time um in because it is a it is a hard time um in because it is a it is a hard time um in the political environment in the the political environment in the the political environment in the relational environment even even relational environment even even relational environment even even financially uh you know for a lot of financially uh you know for a lot of financially uh you know for a lot of leaders and I think I think you know I I leaders and I think I think you know I I leaders and I think I think you know I I don't want to be prophetic about this don't want to be prophetic about this don't want to be prophetic about this but I think there'll be some economic but I think there'll be some economic but I think there'll be some economic challenges and some other things that challenges and some other things that challenges and some other things that are that are around the corner and so are that are around the corner and so are that are around the corner and so we've just got to be sober about that we've just got to be sober about that we've just got to be sober about that and uh to recognize like these are the and uh to recognize like these are the and uh to recognize like these are the moments like we have been praying for a moments like we have been praying for a moments like we have been praying for a long time we have taken a lot hits by long time we have taken a lot hits by long time we have taken a lot hits by being honest about being honest about being honest about uh as as a company the negative uh as as a company the negative uh as as a company the negative downtrends on Christianity. Now we are downtrends on Christianity. Now we are downtrends on Christianity. Now we are taking hits for being overly optimistic taking hits for being overly optimistic taking hits for being overly optimistic or at least reporting the data that or at least reporting the data that or at least reporting the data that things are like where are you getting things are like where are you getting things are like where are you getting those B? those B? those B? >> You can't you can't please everybody. Is >> You can't you can't please everybody. Is >> You can't you can't please everybody. Is that what you're saying David? that what you're saying David? that what you're saying David? >> Oh okay. >> Oh okay. >> Oh okay. >> So the critics the critics come out >> So the critics the critics come out >> So the critics the critics come out whether you have good news or bad news whether you have good news or bad news whether you have good news or bad news but um you know keep going like this is but um you know keep going like this is but um you know keep going like this is an important moment. These are the an important moment. These are the an important moment. These are the moments we've been praying. But we've moments we've been praying. But we've moments we've been praying. But we've been praying for our kids and our been praying for our kids and our been praying for our kids and our grandkids, my three kids and you know grandkids, my three kids and you know grandkids, my three kids and you know their their peers, my my nephews and their their peers, my my nephews and their their peers, my my nephews and nieces and just like God just work in nieces and just like God just work in nieces and just like God just work in the hearts of this next generation. Call the hearts of this next generation. Call the hearts of this next generation. Call these leaders to yourself. Speak to these leaders to yourself. Speak to these leaders to yourself. Speak to them. Awaken them to your great them. Awaken them to your great them. Awaken them to your great purposes. There is something about this purposes. There is something about this purposes. There is something about this moment that uh is is very special. And moment that uh is is very special. And moment that uh is is very special. And uh what a privilege it is to be uh side uh what a privilege it is to be uh side uh what a privilege it is to be uh side by side next to you at this moment.

by side next to you at this moment. by side next to you at this moment. >> Yeah. And I always feel the same way >> Yeah. And I always feel the same way >> Yeah. And I always feel the same way about you, David. really grateful for about you, David. really grateful for about you, David. really grateful for your friendship, grateful for your your friendship, grateful for your your friendship, grateful for your leadership. Thank you. leadership. Thank you. leadership. Thank you. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Well, I hope that conversation was >> Well, I hope that conversation was >> Well, I hope that conversation was helpful. I always learn every time I sit helpful. I always learn every time I sit helpful. I always learn every time I sit down with David and you probably want down with David and you probably want down with David and you probably want more. So, the websites to look for are more. So, the websites to look for are more. So, the websites to look for are stateoftheurch.com and also my website stateoftheurch.com and also my website stateoftheurch.com and also my website 2026 church trends gets you the full 2026 church trends gets you the full 2026 church trends gets you the full 5,000word report. It's got all the data, 5,000word report. It's got all the data, 5,000word report. It's got all the data, all the links. It's got a leader guide all the links. It's got a leader guide all the links. It's got a leader guide for you and your team. You can find the for you and your team. You can find the for you and your team. You can find the show notes by going to the Art of show notes by going to the Art of show notes by going to the Art of Leadership Academy. You can register for Leadership Academy. You can register for Leadership Academy. You can register for free there. We got webinars inside that free there. We got webinars inside that free there. We got webinars inside that and a whole lot more. Hey, next time we and a whole lot more. Hey, next time we and a whole lot more. Hey, next time we are going to dive deep into church are going to dive deep into church are going to dive deep into church trends round two. I've got Luke Lef trends round two. I've got Luke Lef trends round two. I've got Luke Lef Fever and Daniel Mloud. We're going to Fever and Daniel Mloud. We're going to Fever and Daniel Mloud. We're going to talk about Gen Z. They're both Gen Z, talk about Gen Z. They're both Gen Z, talk about Gen Z. They're both Gen Z, 26, 28 years old. What is happening with 26, 28 years old. What is happening with 26, 28 years old. What is happening with young men, Gen Z women? Uh how is young men, Gen Z women? Uh how is young men, Gen Z women? Uh how is evangelism going to the street? What are evangelism going to the street? What are evangelism going to the street? What are these creators and influencers actually these creators and influencers actually these creators and influencers actually doing? If you really want to get your doing? If you really want to get your doing? If you really want to get your pulse on the next generation, that's pulse on the next generation, that's pulse on the next generation, that's coming up. Also coming up on the coming up. Also coming up on the coming up. Also coming up on the podcast, we have got Ruland KD. I've got podcast, we have got Ruland KD. I've got podcast, we have got Ruland KD. I've got John Mark Comr, Craig Gashelle, uh John John Mark Comr, Craig Gashelle, uh John John Mark Comr, Craig Gashelle, uh John Christ, Henry Cloud, Patrick Lenion, and Christ, Henry Cloud, Patrick Lenion, and Christ, Henry Cloud, Patrick Lenion, and a whole lot more coming up. So, thank a whole lot more coming up. So, thank a whole lot more coming up. So, thank you so much for watching. Thank you so you so much for watching. Thank you so you so much for watching. Thank you so much for listening. Give us a like or much for listening. Give us a like or much for listening. Give us a like or subscribe if you're following. And if subscribe if you're following. And if subscribe if you're following. And if you follow, if you're listening, you'll you follow, if you're listening, you'll you follow, if you're listening, you'll never miss an episode, including the never miss an episode, including the never miss an episode, including the next one. Thanks so much for listening next one. Thanks so much for listening next one. Thanks so much for listening and tuning in. And I hope our time and tuning in. And I hope our time and tuning in. And I hope our time together today has helped you identify together today has helped you identify together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're facing.