Seth Godin Reveals the Secret to Successful Strategy

How did you keep going? How did you keep going? Amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, Amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, Amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, man. I might have quit at 80, Seth. There were two things. The first one is There were two things. The first one is the rejections kept getting better. the rejections kept getting better. the rejections kept getting better. Oh. Oh. Oh. That That That the first 100 rejections were no. the first 100 rejections were no. the first 100 rejections were no. The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this is much better than the last one you is much better than the last one you is much better than the last one you sent me. Keep going. No." sent me. Keep going. No." sent me. Keep going. No." And by the time it was And by the time it was And by the time it was up to three or 400, I knew I was on the up to three or 400, I knew I was on the up to three or 400, I knew I was on the verge of something. So, I wasn't verge of something. So, I wasn't verge of something. So, I wasn't harassing people. Mhm. We were both harassing people. Mhm. We were both harassing people. Mhm. We were both learning about each other. learning about each other. learning about each other. And the second thing was Welcome to the And the second thing was Welcome to the And the second thing was Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, if you're new here, subscribe. You'll if you're new here, subscribe. You'll if you're new here, subscribe. You'll never miss an episode and you're going never miss an episode and you're going never miss an episode and you're going to today hear from Seth Godin, one of my to today hear from Seth Godin, one of my to today hear from Seth Godin, one of my all-time favorite creatives and an all-time favorite creatives and an all-time favorite creatives and an incredible human being. incredible human being. incredible human being. I so look forward to these I so look forward to these I so look forward to these conversations. Hey, before we jump in, conversations. Hey, before we jump in, conversations. Hey, before we jump in, today's episode is brought to you by the today's episode is brought to you by the today's episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. For a few Art of Leadership Academy. For a few Art of Leadership Academy. For a few days this week, you can get a 90-day days this week, you can get a 90-day days this week, you can get a 90-day trial membership to the Art of trial membership to the Art of trial membership to the Art of Leadership Academy for $97. So, this is Leadership Academy for $97. So, this is Leadership Academy for $97. So, this is my academy. It includes access to all my my academy. It includes access to all my my academy. It includes access to all my courses, a private troll-free online courses, a private troll-free online courses, a private troll-free online community of amazing church leaders, community of amazing church leaders, community of amazing church leaders, live coaching calls with me and other live coaching calls with me and other live coaching calls with me and other guests, and a whole lot more, including guests, and a whole lot more, including guests, and a whole lot more, including my flagship program, the Art of my flagship program, the Art of my flagship program, the Art of Preaching. Check it out at the Preaching. Check it out at the Preaching. Check it out at the artleadershipacademy.com.

artleadershipacademy.com. artleadershipacademy.com. Be sure to join ASAP because the 90-day Be sure to join ASAP because the 90-day Be sure to join ASAP because the 90-day trial for $97 won't last long. And by trial for $97 won't last long. And by trial for $97 won't last long. And by Convoy of Hope. Regardless of the size Convoy of Hope. Regardless of the size Convoy of Hope. Regardless of the size of a disaster, Convoy is committed to of a disaster, Convoy is committed to of a disaster, Convoy is committed to helping people and mobilizing and helping people and mobilizing and helping people and mobilizing and resourcing the local church to meet the resourcing the local church to meet the resourcing the local church to meet the needs of their community in crisis. needs of their community in crisis. needs of their community in crisis. Learn more and support the good work of Learn more and support the good work of Learn more and support the good work of Convoy at convoy.org/carey. Convoy at convoy.org/carey. Convoy at convoy.org/carey. And now, my conversation on creativity, And now, my conversation on creativity, And now, my conversation on creativity, his writing process, strategy, and a his writing process, strategy, and a his writing process, strategy, and a whole lot more with Seth Godin. Seth, I whole lot more with Seth Godin. Seth, I whole lot more with Seth Godin. Seth, I have been so excited to have another have been so excited to have another have been so excited to have another conversation with you. Thank you. conversation with you. Thank you. conversation with you. Thank you. Thank you, Carey. The reason I write Thank you, Carey. The reason I write Thank you, Carey. The reason I write books is so I can have conversations books is so I can have conversations books is so I can have conversations with you about them. with you about them. with you about them. Well, I'll tell you this last one. Uh Well, I'll tell you this last one. Uh Well, I'll tell you this last one. Uh this is strategy. I'll tell you that this is strategy. I'll tell you that this is strategy. I'll tell you that that really I spent over a day reading that really I spent over a day reading that really I spent over a day reading through it and it's a it's a linear through it and it's a it's a linear through it and it's a it's a linear book, but it's it's very parabolic. book, but it's it's very parabolic. book, but it's it's very parabolic. Which is interesting. I was thinking you Which is interesting. I was thinking you Which is interesting. I was thinking you and Jesus have a lot in common, you and Jesus have a lot in common, you and Jesus have a lot in common, you know. know. know. You tell stories. I know. I know. That You tell stories. I know. I know. That You tell stories. I know. I know. That may not be a good thing where you come may not be a good thing where you come may not be a good thing where you come from. I don't know. But I'm like it's from. I don't know. But I'm like it's from. I don't know. But I'm like it's very parabolic and it really makes you very parabolic and it really makes you very parabolic and it really makes you think, right? Which is sort of the think, right? Which is sort of the think, right? Which is sort of the point.

point. point. Yeah, you know, Yeah, you know, Yeah, you know, when you sit down to write a book, it's when you sit down to write a book, it's when you sit down to write a book, it's tempting to start at A and go to Z. But tempting to start at A and go to Z. But tempting to start at A and go to Z. But that's not how people learn things. When that's not how people learn things. When that's not how people learn things. When you're a toddler, your mom doesn't teach you're a toddler, your mom doesn't teach you're a toddler, your mom doesn't teach you the peas and then teach you about you the peas and then teach you about you the peas and then teach you about onions and then teach you about onions and then teach you about onions and then teach you about potatoes. In between, you're playing potatoes. In between, you're playing potatoes. In between, you're playing with Lego and you're doing this other with Lego and you're doing this other with Lego and you're doing this other thing and they all fit together. thing and they all fit together. thing and they all fit together. So, there wasn't an obvious way to teach So, there wasn't an obvious way to teach So, there wasn't an obvious way to teach the philosophy I'm trying to teach. So, the philosophy I'm trying to teach. So, the philosophy I'm trying to teach. So, I decided to be recursive and elliptical I decided to be recursive and elliptical I decided to be recursive and elliptical and parabolic. I'll talk about something and parabolic. I'll talk about something and parabolic. I'll talk about something I've but talked about it enough and then I've but talked about it enough and then I've but talked about it enough and then I'll talk about the thing that it I'll talk about the thing that it I'll talk about the thing that it relates to and around and in a back. relates to and around and in a back. relates to and around and in a back. Because the purpose of a book is to Because the purpose of a book is to Because the purpose of a book is to change your mind. If all you want is change your mind. If all you want is change your mind. If all you want is information, look it up online. But I'm information, look it up online. But I'm information, look it up online. But I'm here to change your mind. here to change your mind. here to change your mind. Mhm. Yeah, I want to talk about your Mhm. Yeah, I want to talk about your Mhm. Yeah, I want to talk about your writing. We had the opportunity recently writing. We had the opportunity recently writing. We had the opportunity recently to sit down with Malcolm Gladwell again to sit down with Malcolm Gladwell again to sit down with Malcolm Gladwell again and and dissect his writing. And and and dissect his writing. And and and dissect his writing. And obviously, different writers, different obviously, different writers, different obviously, different writers, different thinkers, different styles. Um you are thinkers, different styles. Um you are thinkers, different styles. Um you are you are very unique in that it's really you are very unique in that it's really you are very unique in that it's really a series of Is it 300? Almost 300 riffs.

a series of Is it 300? Almost 300 riffs. a series of Is it 300? Almost 300 riffs. Mhm. Uh it's like mini blog posts. If uh Mhm. Uh it's like mini blog posts. If uh Mhm. Uh it's like mini blog posts. If uh listeners are following Seth, and I hope listeners are following Seth, and I hope listeners are following Seth, and I hope you are, on your blog, subscribing to you are, on your blog, subscribing to you are, on your blog, subscribing to your email, um your email, um your email, um it's like 300 of those and they're it's like 300 of those and they're it's like 300 of those and they're they're sequentially linked, topically they're sequentially linked, topically they're sequentially linked, topically linked. But again, every one of them is linked. But again, every one of them is linked. But again, every one of them is is kind of parabolic. You're kind of is kind of parabolic. You're kind of is kind of parabolic. You're kind of like, "Hmm." It almost felt more like a like, "Hmm." It almost felt more like a like, "Hmm." It almost felt more like a reference book on strategy reference book on strategy reference book on strategy than than than I was with you until the last part. So, I was with you until the last part. So, I was with you until the last part. So, Okay. Malcolm's new book is great. I Okay. Malcolm's new book is great. I Okay. Malcolm's new book is great. I liked it. I read the galley. I liked it liked it. I read the galley. I liked it liked it. I read the galley. I liked it very much. Malcolm will take a story and very much. Malcolm will take a story and very much. Malcolm will take a story and he will squeeze every bit of wisdom out he will squeeze every bit of wisdom out he will squeeze every bit of wisdom out of it. Yes. And he he has patience to do of it. Yes. And he he has patience to do of it. Yes. And he he has patience to do that. that. that. My teaching approach is don't steal the My teaching approach is don't steal the My teaching approach is don't steal the revelation. revelation. revelation. And I think a lot of people in the And I think a lot of people in the And I think a lot of people in the spiritual world understand what I'm spiritual world understand what I'm spiritual world understand what I'm saying. If you say donk da da na na and saying. If you say donk da da na na and saying. If you say donk da da na na and the recipient in their own head says da the recipient in their own head says da the recipient in their own head says da da, da, da, learning happens. Mhm. If you just take learning happens. Mhm. If you just take learning happens. Mhm. If you just take people through all the list, they're people through all the list, they're people through all the list, they're going to glaze over.

going to glaze over. going to glaze over. So, I think Malcolm's method is tell you So, I think Malcolm's method is tell you So, I think Malcolm's method is tell you a story and you get ahead of him. And a story and you get ahead of him. And a story and you get ahead of him. And then he confirms you were right by then he confirms you were right by then he confirms you were right by finishing the story the way you finishing the story the way you finishing the story the way you expected. expected. expected. My method is start telling a story and My method is start telling a story and My method is start telling a story and let you finish it. let you finish it. let you finish it. And that's what I'm trying to do. It's And that's what I'm trying to do. It's And that's what I'm trying to do. It's the opposite, I think, of a reference the opposite, I think, of a reference the opposite, I think, of a reference book. book. book. I can't imagine someone looking I can't imagine someone looking I can't imagine someone looking something up in one of my books. No, something up in one of my books. No, something up in one of my books. No, that's true. Um I guess I was it's that's true. Um I guess I was it's that's true. Um I guess I was it's probably not the right term, but the way probably not the right term, but the way probably not the right term, but the way I was thinking of it, like I I turn to I was thinking of it, like I I turn to I was thinking of it, like I I turn to to a sacred text on a daily basis. And to a sacred text on a daily basis. And to a sacred text on a daily basis. And every time you read it, there's another every time you read it, there's another every time you read it, there's another layer of meaning under it, right? layer of meaning under it, right? layer of meaning under it, right? Okay. So, that is more what I was saying Okay. So, that is more what I was saying Okay. So, that is more what I was saying in that this is not Oh, yeah, I read the in that this is not Oh, yeah, I read the in that this is not Oh, yeah, I read the book, you know, it was good. book, you know, it was good. book, you know, it was good. Right. It it's like I got to come back Right. It it's like I got to come back Right. It it's like I got to come back to this. So, I ordered myself and my to this. So, I ordered myself and my to this. So, I ordered myself and my team some copies and when it actually team some copies and when it actually team some copies and when it actually comes out out, uh it's going to sit on comes out out, uh it's going to sit on comes out out, uh it's going to sit on my shelf and maybe on my desk and I'll my shelf and maybe on my desk and I'll my shelf and maybe on my desk and I'll be referencing it. Um I'd love to talk be referencing it. Um I'd love to talk be referencing it. Um I'd love to talk about your writing process. I heard you about your writing process. I heard you about your writing process. I heard you discuss this with Tim Ferriss uh a few discuss this with Tim Ferriss uh a few discuss this with Tim Ferriss uh a few months ago. And months ago. And months ago. And I am increasingly I am increasingly I am increasingly consumed with the idea of brevity. As consumed with the idea of brevity. As consumed with the idea of brevity. As somebody who's naturally verbose and somebody who's naturally verbose and somebody who's naturally verbose and enjoys talking too much, enjoys talking too much, enjoys talking too much, you're so good at being brief. Can you you're so good at being brief. Can you you're so good at being brief. Can you can you talk about writing and brevity?

Well, first, I'm hardly a role model for Well, first, I'm hardly a role model for anybody who's looking for a persistent, anybody who's looking for a persistent, anybody who's looking for a persistent, resilient, organized way to go through resilient, organized way to go through resilient, organized way to go through things cuz I have a short attention things cuz I have a short attention things cuz I have a short attention span. Um span. Um span. Um I wrote a book called Survival Is Not I wrote a book called Survival Is Not I wrote a book called Survival Is Not Enough. It took me 10 hours a day for Enough. It took me 10 hours a day for Enough. It took me 10 hours a day for 300 days. I had to delete 130,000 words 300 days. I had to delete 130,000 words 300 days. I had to delete 130,000 words when I was done. There are footnotes and when I was done. There are footnotes and when I was done. There are footnotes and footnotes. I did it the right way. footnotes. I did it the right way. footnotes. I did it the right way. And it almost killed me, but I learned a And it almost killed me, but I learned a And it almost killed me, but I learned a lot doing the process. lot doing the process. lot doing the process. What I have found as a teacher, and as What I have found as a teacher, and as What I have found as a teacher, and as you know, I've been teaching Mhm. up you know, I've been teaching Mhm. up you know, I've been teaching Mhm. up north for 50 years, 40 years, Yeah. is north for 50 years, 40 years, Yeah. is north for 50 years, 40 years, Yeah. is you want to you want to you want to present the smallest nudge possible that present the smallest nudge possible that present the smallest nudge possible that is still scaffolding. is still scaffolding. is still scaffolding. And anything beyond that And anything beyond that And anything beyond that is actually getting in the way of the is actually getting in the way of the is actually getting in the way of the pedagogy of learning. pedagogy of learning. pedagogy of learning. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And the the key to the word nudge is you And the the key to the word nudge is you And the the key to the word nudge is you need to find the right thing. need to find the right thing. need to find the right thing. And so, this is And so, this is And so, this is again, part of Malcolm's genius is he again, part of Malcolm's genius is he again, part of Malcolm's genius is he can take the parable of Bowdoin versus can take the parable of Bowdoin versus can take the parable of Bowdoin versus Vassar, Vassar, Vassar, which is a story you can tell in 90 which is a story you can tell in 90 which is a story you can tell in 90 seconds.

seconds. seconds. He'll tell it for 25 minutes, He'll tell it for 25 minutes, He'll tell it for 25 minutes, which is fine. It was great. But it's which is fine. It was great. But it's which is fine. It was great. But it's still a nudge. He didn't need to still a nudge. He didn't need to still a nudge. He didn't need to describe everything in our culture. He describe everything in our culture. He describe everything in our culture. He used one example used one example used one example to get you to see the big picture. I'm to get you to see the big picture. I'm to get you to see the big picture. I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to say trying to do that. I'm trying to say trying to do that. I'm trying to say when you think about the story of the when you think about the story of the when you think about the story of the purple cow, which you might still purple cow, which you might still purple cow, which you might still remember all these years later, you will remember all these years later, you will remember all these years later, you will not remember any of the details from my not remember any of the details from my not remember any of the details from my book, which is fine. book, which is fine. book, which is fine. It's the little nudge that could get you It's the little nudge that could get you It's the little nudge that could get you over the hump. over the hump. over the hump. Mhm. Mhm. What parallels are there Mhm. Mhm. What parallels are there Mhm. Mhm. What parallels are there between teaching someone how to paddle a between teaching someone how to paddle a between teaching someone how to paddle a canoe canoe canoe and teaching in general? Cuz you're and teaching in general? Cuz you're and teaching in general? Cuz you're right. You alluded to it, but you've right. You alluded to it, but you've right. You alluded to it, but you've been doing this for 40, 50 years going been doing this for 40, 50 years going been doing this for 40, 50 years going about an hour and a half north of me about an hour and a half north of me about an hour and a half north of me every summer to teach canoeing. every summer to teach canoeing. every summer to teach canoeing. So, um all I believe So, um all I believe So, um all I believe virtually all learning is self-learning. virtually all learning is self-learning. virtually all learning is self-learning. I think just about everybody is an I think just about everybody is an I think just about everybody is an autodidact and the teacher's job is to autodidact and the teacher's job is to autodidact and the teacher's job is to create the conditions create the conditions create the conditions for you to A, want to learn and B, for you to A, want to learn and B, for you to A, want to learn and B, have enough freedom from fear have enough freedom from fear have enough freedom from fear that you will learn.

that you will learn. that you will learn. So, the secret of teaching a 10-year-old So, the secret of teaching a 10-year-old So, the secret of teaching a 10-year-old or a 60-year-old how to canoe is I need or a 60-year-old how to canoe is I need or a 60-year-old how to canoe is I need to teach them to breathe. I need to to teach them to breathe. I need to to teach them to breathe. I need to teach them to sit. And then I need them teach them to sit. And then I need them teach them to sit. And then I need them teach them to understand the transfer of teach them to understand the transfer of teach them to understand the transfer of energy. energy. energy. If I get those things right, If I get those things right, If I get those things right, then the only thing that's left is the then the only thing that's left is the then the only thing that's left is the wrist action on the J-stroke. wrist action on the J-stroke. wrist action on the J-stroke. When I've done those four things, they When I've done those four things, they When I've done those four things, they do 2 years worth of progress in an hour. do 2 years worth of progress in an hour. do 2 years worth of progress in an hour. But if I go on and say the difference But if I go on and say the difference But if I go on and say the difference between an inside draw and an inside between an inside draw and an inside between an inside draw and an inside turn is this and I talk about Chuck turn is this and I talk about Chuck turn is this and I talk about Chuck LeBeau and Omer Stringer and I talk LeBeau and Omer Stringer and I talk LeBeau and Omer Stringer and I talk about, you know, the gunnels and the about, you know, the gunnels and the about, you know, the gunnels and the tumblehome, nothing happens. I'm just tumblehome, nothing happens. I'm just tumblehome, nothing happens. I'm just amusing myself. amusing myself. amusing myself. Why do you start with breath? So, So, the the the people don't really understand people don't really understand people don't really understand how energy and respiration works and how energy and respiration works and how energy and respiration works and they don't understand what breathing they don't understand what breathing they don't understand what breathing actually is. actually is. actually is. And if we can return to the breath, And if we can return to the breath, And if we can return to the breath, we can deal with our fear.

we can deal with our fear. we can deal with our fear. If we can return to the breath, we can If we can return to the breath, we can If we can return to the breath, we can generate the energy that we need to do generate the energy that we need to do generate the energy that we need to do our work. If you watch somebody our work. If you watch somebody our work. If you watch somebody who is not good at public speaking or who is not good at public speaking or who is not good at public speaking or golf, golf, golf, you will find that they are holding you will find that they are holding you will find that they are holding their breath. their breath. their breath. You're right. You're right. You're right. You know, it's interesting. Um I mean, You know, it's interesting. Um I mean, You know, it's interesting. Um I mean, I'm a very amateur canoeist. We have one I'm a very amateur canoeist. We have one I'm a very amateur canoeist. We have one that we keep at the house and then we that we keep at the house and then we that we keep at the house and then we take it across the street into the lake take it across the street into the lake take it across the street into the lake and have a lot of fun with it. And we've and have a lot of fun with it. And we've and have a lot of fun with it. And we've we've managed our way around it. And I we've managed our way around it. And I we've managed our way around it. And I don't have a lot of fears in life. One don't have a lot of fears in life. One don't have a lot of fears in life. One of my fears of my fears of my fears is swimming {slash} drowning. And you is swimming {slash} drowning. And you is swimming {slash} drowning. And you know, I've lived a lot of years with know, I've lived a lot of years with know, I've lived a lot of years with that fear. that fear. that fear. I took swim lessons, obviously, and I took swim lessons, obviously, and I took swim lessons, obviously, and learned nothing as a child from my learned nothing as a child from my learned nothing as a child from my swimming lessons. swimming lessons. swimming lessons. And uh my kids, now that they're older, And uh my kids, now that they're older, And uh my kids, now that they're older, are very good at like coaching me on are very good at like coaching me on are very good at like coaching me on that, but I have to remind myself that, but I have to remind myself that, but I have to remind myself every time I jumped in the lake a couple every time I jumped in the lake a couple every time I jumped in the lake a couple days ago off my boat. And it's like, days ago off my boat. And it's like, days ago off my boat. And it's like, breathe, relax, don't panic, uh you're breathe, relax, don't panic, uh you're breathe, relax, don't panic, uh you're going to be okay. Uh you know, I can going to be okay. Uh you know, I can going to be okay. Uh you know, I can walk on stage and talk to 5,000 leaders, walk on stage and talk to 5,000 leaders, walk on stage and talk to 5,000 leaders, no problem.

no problem. no problem. But jumping into that lake off the back But jumping into that lake off the back But jumping into that lake off the back of a boat makes me very, very afraid. of a boat makes me very, very afraid. of a boat makes me very, very afraid. Totally get it. First of all, you should Totally get it. First of all, you should Totally get it. First of all, you should be afraid cuz the green leech is in your be afraid cuz the green leech is in your be afraid cuz the green leech is in your lake and you don't want to encounter lake and you don't want to encounter lake and you don't want to encounter him. He's 90 ft long, but him. He's 90 ft long, but him. He's 90 ft long, but Oh, this is a new fear. Thank you. Oh, this is a new fear. Thank you. Oh, this is a new fear. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. New fear unlocked. I did not know that. New fear unlocked. I did not know that. New fear unlocked. I did not know that. I I will tell you I have taught adults I I will tell you I have taught adults I I will tell you I have taught adults how to swim. how to swim. how to swim. And the method surprises people. And the method surprises people. And the method surprises people. You get one of those um You get one of those um You get one of those um scuba masks, not the little ones that go scuba masks, not the little ones that go scuba masks, not the little ones that go over your eyeballs, but over your eyes over your eyeballs, but over your eyes over your eyeballs, but over your eyes and your nose. Mhm. And you fill it with and your nose. Mhm. And you fill it with and your nose. Mhm. And you fill it with water from the pool. water from the pool. water from the pool. And you sit on the deck of the pool. And you sit on the deck of the pool. And you sit on the deck of the pool. You're not in the water. And you just You're not in the water. And you just You're not in the water. And you just put on this mask filled with water. put on this mask filled with water. put on this mask filled with water. So now your eyes and your nose are So now your eyes and your nose are So now your eyes and your nose are underwater, but none of the rest of you underwater, but none of the rest of you underwater, but none of the rest of you is. is. is. And so all of the logic in your brain is And so all of the logic in your brain is And so all of the logic in your brain is reminding you, you are fine. reminding you, you are fine. reminding you, you are fine. Cuz you are not even in the water. Cuz you are not even in the water. Cuz you are not even in the water. But you are experiencing the sensory of But you are experiencing the sensory of But you are experiencing the sensory of being in the water. being in the water. being in the water. And if I can get you to sit there for 5 And if I can get you to sit there for 5 And if I can get you to sit there for 5 minutes and just chill with that, minutes and just chill with that, minutes and just chill with that, getting in the pool is much easier.

getting in the pool is much easier. getting in the pool is much easier. Because we what we've done is we've Because we what we've done is we've Because we what we've done is we've tried to rewire tried to rewire tried to rewire your cognitive rational self with the your cognitive rational self with the your cognitive rational self with the self that's afraid. So one of the things self that's afraid. So one of the things self that's afraid. So one of the things I talk about in the book is I talk about in the book is I talk about in the book is everyone I have encountered in every everyone I have encountered in every everyone I have encountered in every country around the world country around the world country around the world once they have a roof and health and once they have a roof and health and once they have a roof and health and food food food wants three things in different measure. wants three things in different measure. wants three things in different measure. Status, affiliation, and freedom from Status, affiliation, and freedom from Status, affiliation, and freedom from fear. fear. fear. Mhm. And status is who eats lunch first, Mhm. And status is who eats lunch first, Mhm. And status is who eats lunch first, who's in the front row, who got a who's in the front row, who got a who's in the front row, who got a handshake. handshake. handshake. Affiliation is am I wearing the right Affiliation is am I wearing the right Affiliation is am I wearing the right clothes? Do I fit in? clothes? Do I fit in? clothes? Do I fit in? People like us do things like this. People like us do things like this. People like us do things like this. And freedom from fear is a made-up story And freedom from fear is a made-up story And freedom from fear is a made-up story about fear. It's not about fear. It's not about fear. It's not freedom from risk. It's freedom from risk. It's freedom from risk. It's do you feel afraid? We'd rather not. do you feel afraid? We'd rather not. do you feel afraid? We'd rather not. And so, back to the swimming pedagogy, And so, back to the swimming pedagogy, And so, back to the swimming pedagogy, if I can make it so you don't feel if I can make it so you don't feel if I can make it so you don't feel afraid when you're wearing the mask, afraid when you're wearing the mask, afraid when you're wearing the mask, then we are one step closer to you being then we are one step closer to you being then we are one step closer to you being comfortable in the water. Mhm.

comfortable in the water. Mhm. comfortable in the water. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. A little more on your writing process, A little more on your writing process, A little more on your writing process, if you don't mind, before we we tackle if you don't mind, before we we tackle if you don't mind, before we we tackle strategy. Yeah, so um strategy. Yeah, so um strategy. Yeah, so um think about your daily posts, which can think about your daily posts, which can think about your daily posts, which can be remarkably short, two or three be remarkably short, two or three be remarkably short, two or three sentences, and sometimes a little bit sentences, and sometimes a little bit sentences, and sometimes a little bit longer, but literally compared to most longer, but literally compared to most longer, but literally compared to most of the stuff people would read of the stuff people would read of the stuff people would read on the on the brief side, definitely on on the on the brief side, definitely on on the on the brief side, definitely on the brief side. Um the brief side. Um the brief side. Um how do you pick topics for what you're how do you pick topics for what you're how do you pick topics for what you're going to write about daily? Well, I don't pick topics. I have a Well, I don't pick topics. I have a method, but I don't pick topics. Okay. method, but I don't pick topics. Okay. method, but I don't pick topics. Okay. Um Um Um I first I'm going to talk about why I I first I'm going to talk about why I I first I'm going to talk about why I think people are verbose. think people are verbose. think people are verbose. They're verbose cuz they're hiding. They're verbose cuz they're hiding. They're verbose cuz they're hiding. Mhm. They're hiding it cuz it lets them Mhm. They're hiding it cuz it lets them Mhm. They're hiding it cuz it lets them off the hook. If you say and it it off the hook. If you say and it it off the hook. If you say and it it started uh started uh started uh a year or two into my blog, I had a year or two into my blog, I had a year or two into my blog, I had comments cuz I was supposed to have comments cuz I was supposed to have comments cuz I was supposed to have comments. comments. comments. And a negative comment would ruin my And a negative comment would ruin my And a negative comment would ruin my whole day.

whole day. whole day. So, what I started to do was write in So, what I started to do was write in So, what I started to do was write in anticipation of the negative comments. anticipation of the negative comments. anticipation of the negative comments. I would start explaining myself and I would start explaining myself and I would start explaining myself and footnoting and doubling down on things footnoting and doubling down on things footnoting and doubling down on things so that people couldn't write a negative so that people couldn't write a negative so that people couldn't write a negative comment about that. comment about that. comment about that. And it was ruining it. And I realized I And it was ruining it. And I realized I And it was ruining it. And I realized I either had to have no comments or no either had to have no comments or no either had to have no comments or no blog, but there was no way I could keep blog, but there was no way I could keep blog, but there was no way I could keep knowing that I had to defend myself when knowing that I had to defend myself when knowing that I had to defend myself when in my writing. in my writing. in my writing. Um Um Um how do I what's my method? My method is how do I what's my method? My method is how do I what's my method? My method is if I see something in the world if I see something in the world if I see something in the world that I don't understand, that I don't understand, that I don't understand, either cuz it's working and I don't either cuz it's working and I don't either cuz it's working and I don't think it should work, think it should work, think it should work, or because it's not working and I don't or because it's not working and I don't or because it's not working and I don't understand why someone's doing something understand why someone's doing something understand why someone's doing something that doesn't work, that doesn't work, that doesn't work, I need to explain it to myself. I need to explain it to myself. I need to explain it to myself. And if I can explain it to myself in a And if I can explain it to myself in a And if I can explain it to myself in a way that someone else might want to way that someone else might want to way that someone else might want to hear, hear, hear, that's a blog post. that's a blog post. that's a blog post. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So it comes out of your your curiosity, So it comes out of your your curiosity, So it comes out of your your curiosity, your desire to know, your desire to your desire to know, your desire to your desire to know, your desire to understand. understand. understand. Right, but I don't think I was born with Right, but I don't think I was born with Right, but I don't think I was born with curiosity. I think I have developed a curiosity. I think I have developed a curiosity. I think I have developed a practice to be curious as a practice to be curious as a practice to be curious as a professional.

professional. professional. I think anyone can do that. Yeah, can I think anyone can do that. Yeah, can I think anyone can do that. Yeah, can you that that's one of my commitments is you that that's one of my commitments is you that that's one of my commitments is actually to become more curious every actually to become more curious every actually to become more curious every year. And it's it's it's it's a year. And it's it's it's it's a year. And it's it's it's it's a discipline. discipline. discipline. Uh and some days I do well on it, some Uh and some days I do well on it, some Uh and some days I do well on it, some days not so well. What are your days not so well. What are your days not so well. What are your disciplines in terms of fostering that disciplines in terms of fostering that disciplines in terms of fostering that curiosity? It's just a really good way to not do my It's just a really good way to not do my work. It's like, oh, look, a puppy. It's work. It's like, oh, look, a puppy. It's work. It's like, oh, look, a puppy. It's it's it's it's there's just I can't there's just I can't there's just I can't once I developed once I developed once I developed once I got rewarded for once I got rewarded for once I got rewarded for not filling out forms and instead not filling out forms and instead not filling out forms and instead noticing things, noticing things, noticing things, I didn't have to work very hard after I didn't have to work very hard after I didn't have to work very hard after that. I Yes, sign me up to notice these that. I Yes, sign me up to notice these that. I Yes, sign me up to notice these things. I can't stop noticing. You know, things. I can't stop noticing. You know, things. I can't stop noticing. You know, there was a there was a there was a we went to a cheap hotel in Jamaica we went to a cheap hotel in Jamaica we went to a cheap hotel in Jamaica about 15 years ago. about 15 years ago. about 15 years ago. And there was a guy who worked there and And there was a guy who worked there and And there was a guy who worked there and there was a slide and he would go down there was a slide and he would go down there was a slide and he would go down the slide and then skid across the the slide and then skid across the the slide and then skid across the surface of the water for like 15 ft, surface of the water for like 15 ft, surface of the water for like 15 ft, like ducks in a drink.

like ducks in a drink. like ducks in a drink. And I watched this guy do that like five And I watched this guy do that like five And I watched this guy do that like five times. I'm like, I that's impossible. I times. I'm like, I that's impossible. I times. I'm like, I that's impossible. I I I I I may I might have studied I I I I may I might have studied I I I I may I might have studied physics. What you're doing cannot be physics. What you're doing cannot be physics. What you're doing cannot be done. done. done. So, I went up to him as the pool was So, I went up to him as the pool was So, I went up to him as the pool was closing and I said, uh closing and I said, uh closing and I said, uh here's 20 bucks. Thank you for here's 20 bucks. Thank you for here's 20 bucks. Thank you for entertaining me. Will you teach me how entertaining me. Will you teach me how entertaining me. Will you teach me how to do that? to do that? to do that? Now, Now, Now, the number of times in my life that I the number of times in my life that I the number of times in my life that I would actually be able to do it was would actually be able to do it was would actually be able to do it was close to zero. close to zero. close to zero. But I needed to know. I needed to know But I needed to know. I needed to know But I needed to know. I needed to know what he was doing and how it worked what he was doing and how it worked what he was doing and how it worked because I don't understand people who because I don't understand people who because I don't understand people who can watch Danny Garcia do a magic trick can watch Danny Garcia do a magic trick can watch Danny Garcia do a magic trick and go, oh yeah, without having a clue. and go, oh yeah, without having a clue. and go, oh yeah, without having a clue. Like a miracle just happened and you Like a miracle just happened and you Like a miracle just happened and you don't you're not interested? How could don't you're not interested? How could don't you're not interested? How could that be? that be? that be? That's why I own 150 tricks from Penguin That's why I own 150 tricks from Penguin That's why I own 150 tricks from Penguin Magic cuz I don't I don't perform them, Magic cuz I don't I don't perform them, Magic cuz I don't I don't perform them, but I need to know. but I need to know. but I need to know. Oh, so you dabble in magic? Uh Oh, so you dabble in magic? Uh Oh, so you dabble in magic? Uh I knew you juggled. I knew you juggled. I knew you juggled. I knew you juggled. I knew you juggled. I knew you juggled. Yeah, the juggling has taken a lot of my Yeah, the juggling has taken a lot of my Yeah, the juggling has taken a lot of my time lately, but um the magic I have time lately, but um the magic I have time lately, but um the magic I have like a half a dozen tricks that I do like a half a dozen tricks that I do like a half a dozen tricks that I do pretty well over and over again. But pretty well over and over again. But pretty well over and over again. But then I have this huge array of because I then I have this huge array of because I then I have this huge array of because I love the craftsmanship love the craftsmanship love the craftsmanship of how did someone of how did someone of how did someone decide to spend months plus decide to spend months plus decide to spend months plus manufacturing to come up with something manufacturing to come up with something manufacturing to come up with something that created wonder for somebody else.

that created wonder for somebody else. that created wonder for somebody else. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That's $20 well spent. That's $20 well spent. That's $20 well spent. Yeah, no kidding, but you don't perform Yeah, no kidding, but you don't perform Yeah, no kidding, but you don't perform publicly. publicly. publicly. No, cuz then I get stressed and if it No, cuz then I get stressed and if it No, cuz then I get stressed and if it doesn't work, I like to be to take doesn't work, I like to be to take doesn't work, I like to be to take someone's attention and give it back someone's attention and give it back someone's attention and give it back when you can't when you can't when you can't put in the effort to be sure you're put in the effort to be sure you're put in the effort to be sure you're going to create wonder feels selfish to going to create wonder feels selfish to going to create wonder feels selfish to me. me. me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you do it for yourself, not for Mhm. So you do it for yourself, not for Mhm. So you do it for yourself, not for your wife or close friends or anything? your wife or close friends or anything? your wife or close friends or anything? Yeah, I like the six the six tricks, Yeah, I like the six the six tricks, Yeah, I like the six the six tricks, they always work cuz I they're I've they always work cuz I they're I've they always work cuz I they're I've customized them, I'm good at them. I do customized them, I'm good at them. I do customized them, I'm good at them. I do those all the time. those all the time. those all the time. Because watching someone's expression, Because watching someone's expression, Because watching someone's expression, cuz here's what I do. cuz here's what I do. cuz here's what I do. And A Car who runs Penguin has heard me And A Car who runs Penguin has heard me And A Car who runs Penguin has heard me talk about this. I think most modern talk about this. I think most modern talk about this. I think most modern magic tricks have a problem, which is magic tricks have a problem, which is magic tricks have a problem, which is that they are self-absorbed and make the that they are self-absorbed and make the that they are self-absorbed and make the magician look smart. Mhm. magician look smart. Mhm. magician look smart. Mhm. So, in all of my tricks, the person I'm So, in all of my tricks, the person I'm So, in all of my tricks, the person I'm doing the trick for actually does the doing the trick for actually does the doing the trick for actually does the trick. trick. trick. They perform the miracle. Wow. And then They perform the miracle. Wow. And then They perform the miracle. Wow. And then they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I wait, wait. I wait, wait. I And like that's the kind of wonder I'm And like that's the kind of wonder I'm And like that's the kind of wonder I'm looking for. Not, oh, you're very cool.

looking for. Not, oh, you're very cool. looking for. Not, oh, you're very cool. They're like, They're like, They're like, how did I do that? So that's something I really admire So that's something I really admire about the way you approach your work. about the way you approach your work. about the way you approach your work. You do make not only the reader, You do make not only the reader, You do make not only the reader, the person on the other end of of, you the person on the other end of of, you the person on the other end of of, you know, your keyboard know, your keyboard know, your keyboard do the work, like they get the da da, do the work, like they get the da da, do the work, like they get the da da, right? They that they're they're doing right? They that they're they're doing right? They that they're they're doing that. But you also make them the hero. that. But you also make them the hero. that. But you also make them the hero. And That's the goal. Yeah, you really And That's the goal. Yeah, you really And That's the goal. Yeah, you really you really do a great job of that. And you really do a great job of that. And you really do a great job of that. And that is something I am committed to that is something I am committed to that is something I am committed to because that is not natural behavior for because that is not natural behavior for because that is not natural behavior for me. It would be like, I'd kind of like me. It would be like, I'd kind of like me. It would be like, I'd kind of like to be the hero. That would be a lot of to be the hero. That would be a lot of to be the hero. That would be a lot of fun. Uh fun. Uh fun. Uh you know, just being totally you know, just being totally you know, just being totally transparent. transparent. transparent. No, I mean, I mean, part of it came from No, I mean, I mean, part of it came from No, I mean, I mean, part of it came from just you know, 30 years of public just you know, 30 years of public just you know, 30 years of public speaking. I saw a guy give a speech speaking. I saw a guy give a speech speaking. I saw a guy give a speech yesterday. It was terrible. It was like yesterday. It was terrible. It was like yesterday. It was terrible. It was like eyeball bleeding terrible. eyeball bleeding terrible. eyeball bleeding terrible. Oh. And it's because Oh. And it's because Oh. And it's because he just was recounting one not very he just was recounting one not very he just was recounting one not very interesting story after another from his interesting story after another from his interesting story after another from his life. Mhm. life. Mhm. life. Mhm. And he felt like because they had And he felt like because they had And he felt like because they had happened to him, they were interesting.

happened to him, they were interesting. happened to him, they were interesting. That works if, you know, if you're That works if, you know, if you're That works if, you know, if you're Beyoncé. We want to hear about Beyoncé's Beyoncé. We want to hear about Beyoncé's Beyoncé. We want to hear about Beyoncé's semi-interesting stories. But we don't semi-interesting stories. But we don't semi-interesting stories. But we don't know this guy. We just know he's telling know this guy. We just know he's telling know this guy. We just know he's telling us another non-interesting story about us another non-interesting story about us another non-interesting story about his boss. Why? his boss. Why? his boss. Why? But if if I can tell a story that's not But if if I can tell a story that's not But if if I can tell a story that's not about me, about me, about me, where you end up imagining yourself as where you end up imagining yourself as where you end up imagining yourself as the hero, the hero, the hero, that was time well spent for all of us. that was time well spent for all of us. that was time well spent for all of us. Another thing that amazes me, and I Another thing that amazes me, and I Another thing that amazes me, and I mean, it really comes together in the mean, it really comes together in the mean, it really comes together in the book because close to 300 riffs {slash} book because close to 300 riffs {slash} book because close to 300 riffs {slash} chapters, each almost every one of chapters, each almost every one of chapters, each almost every one of them's got some kind of story or them's got some kind of story or them's got some kind of story or anecdote. It could be historical or it anecdote. It could be historical or it anecdote. It could be historical or it could be somebody you know from all the could be somebody you know from all the could be somebody you know from all the work you've done with AltMBA or Purple work you've done with AltMBA or Purple work you've done with AltMBA or Purple Space, that kind of thing. Space, that kind of thing. Space, that kind of thing. How do you collate, collect How do you collate, collect How do you collate, collect that many stories? Because sometimes you that many stories? Because sometimes you that many stories? Because sometimes you read a book, Seth, and it's like, "Oh read a book, Seth, and it's like, "Oh read a book, Seth, and it's like, "Oh yeah, I know this story. Oh yeah, I know yeah, I know this story. Oh yeah, I know yeah, I know this story. Oh yeah, I know this story." I don't think I knew one this story." I don't think I knew one this story." I don't think I knew one story in story in story in This is Strategy. I'm pretty sure they This is Strategy. I'm pretty sure they This is Strategy. I'm pretty sure they were all new to me. And I would love to were all new to me. And I would love to were all new to me. And I would love to know how you curate and collect stories know how you curate and collect stories know how you curate and collect stories like that.

I I am narcissistic enough to momentarily am narcissistic enough to momentarily am narcissistic enough to momentarily imagine that the world works for me. imagine that the world works for me. imagine that the world works for me. And when I discover something, And when I discover something, And when I discover something, I will say I That's That one's a good I will say I That's That one's a good I will say I That's That one's a good one. I'm saving that one. And it might one. I'm saving that one. And it might one. I'm saving that one. And it might be 10 years later, be 10 years later, be 10 years later, and there it is, ready for me. They They and there it is, ready for me. They They and there it is, ready for me. They They did that for me. did that for me. did that for me. Right? So, Right? So, Right? So, the people who are leaders, the people who are leaders, the people who are leaders, podcasters, bakers, folks who show up in podcasters, bakers, folks who show up in podcasters, bakers, folks who show up in the world are doing something the world are doing something the world are doing something interesting, I'm like grabbing those interesting, I'm like grabbing those interesting, I'm like grabbing those stories. stories. stories. And I don't have an organized filing And I don't have an organized filing And I don't have an organized filing system. system. system. I just I just I just incorporate incorporate incorporate the story. So, I I give you an example. the story. So, I I give you an example. the story. So, I I give you an example. In In In The Icarus Deception, the entire book is The Icarus Deception, the entire book is The Icarus Deception, the entire book is hooked on the story of Daedalus and hooked on the story of Daedalus and hooked on the story of Daedalus and Icarus. Icarus. Icarus. I wrote that book 12 years ago. I wrote that book 12 years ago. I wrote that book 12 years ago. It's based on a myth that's thousands of It's based on a myth that's thousands of It's based on a myth that's thousands of years old. years old. years old. 4 days ago, someone sent me a three-page 4 days ago, someone sent me a three-page 4 days ago, someone sent me a three-page single- single- single- spaced letter explaining all the facts I spaced letter explaining all the facts I spaced letter explaining all the facts I got wrong about Daedalus and Icarus. Oh, got wrong about Daedalus and Icarus. Oh, got wrong about Daedalus and Icarus. Oh, no.

no. no. I'm sorry if the Daedalus estate wants I'm sorry if the Daedalus estate wants I'm sorry if the Daedalus estate wants to send me a letter, I will I will try to send me a letter, I will I will try to send me a letter, I will I will try do a settlement. do a settlement. do a settlement. I mean, I feel better cuz it's a I mean, I feel better cuz it's a I mean, I feel better cuz it's a make-believe story, but it was sloppy of make-believe story, but it was sloppy of make-believe story, but it was sloppy of me. But what happened was I heard the me. But what happened was I heard the me. But what happened was I heard the story, story, story, and I thought, "I got to save that one." and I thought, "I got to save that one." and I thought, "I got to save that one." And it was years and years later when I And it was years and years later when I And it was years and years later when I turned the parable into a book. turned the parable into a book. turned the parable into a book. But the point is I'm not a reporter, and But the point is I'm not a reporter, and But the point is I'm not a reporter, and I'm not a scientist. I'm looking for I'm not a scientist. I'm looking for I'm not a scientist. I'm looking for parables and and anecdotes parables and and anecdotes parables and and anecdotes that I can hook a lesson to. that I can hook a lesson to. that I can hook a lesson to. And I do my best not to mislead, but And I do my best not to mislead, but And I do my best not to mislead, but your mileage will definitely vary. your mileage will definitely vary. your mileage will definitely vary. You're not not alone in getting uh you You're not not alone in getting uh you You're not not alone in getting uh you know, three-paragraph single-spaced know, three-paragraph single-spaced know, three-paragraph single-spaced letters critiquing something you said or letters critiquing something you said or letters critiquing something you said or did. One of the things you've done, did. One of the things you've done, did. One of the things you've done, you know, you're very disciplined about, you know, you're very disciplined about, you know, you're very disciplined about, you turned off comments on your blog on you turned off comments on your blog on you turned off comments on your blog on day two, maybe not day one, but day two. day two, maybe not day one, but day two. day two, maybe not day one, but day two. And you've been going now for And you've been going now for And you've been going now for decades, every single day on your blog. decades, every single day on your blog. decades, every single day on your blog. Um you don't have social media, Um you don't have social media, Um you don't have social media, and you're not and you're not and you're not really getting a lot of feedback online.

really getting a lot of feedback online. really getting a lot of feedback online. Um Um Um how does how does how does Careful. I'm not letting that sentence Careful. I'm not letting that sentence Careful. I'm not letting that sentence go away, but you keep going. All right. go away, but you keep going. All right. go away, but you keep going. All right. Well, from random uninvested people, Well, from random uninvested people, Well, from random uninvested people, you're not you're not getting the you're not you're not getting the you're not you're not getting the the A lot of us get a lot of feedback the A lot of us get a lot of feedback the A lot of us get a lot of feedback when we get comments, when we're on when we get comments, when we're on when we get comments, when we're on social media. You know, I can post a social media. You know, I can post a social media. You know, I can post a video, I'll get like video, I'll get like video, I'll get like I stopped you. I stopped you cuz you I stopped you. I stopped you cuz you I stopped you. I stopped you cuz you used you used the word feedback. used you used the word feedback. used you used the word feedback. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, in the book, I talk about feedback So, in the book, I talk about feedback So, in the book, I talk about feedback loops, negative and positive. Yeah. loops, negative and positive. Yeah. loops, negative and positive. Yeah. Turns out a negative feedback loop is a Turns out a negative feedback loop is a Turns out a negative feedback loop is a good thing. good thing. good thing. Um Um Um that's different than criticism. Mhm. that's different than criticism. Mhm. that's different than criticism. Mhm. And And And there's different kinds of criticism. there's different kinds of criticism. there's different kinds of criticism. Criticism Criticism Criticism from professionals is priceless. Yeah. from professionals is priceless. Yeah. from professionals is priceless. Yeah. Hard to find. Mhm. Then there's the Hard to find. Mhm. Then there's the Hard to find. Mhm. Then there's the implied criticism implied criticism implied criticism that we can take from eavesdropping on that we can take from eavesdropping on that we can take from eavesdropping on people who don't know people who don't know people who don't know they're giving us criticism. they're giving us criticism. they're giving us criticism. That's hugely valuable. That's hugely valuable. That's hugely valuable. What does that look like?

What does that look like? What does that look like? So, in the case of this book, Mhm. I So, in the case of this book, Mhm. I So, in the case of this book, Mhm. I made 45 videos to build a workshop made 45 videos to build a workshop made 45 videos to build a workshop around. around. around. And I then gave the workshop to the And I then gave the workshop to the And I then gave the workshop to the people in Purple Space. So, 350 people people in Purple Space. So, 350 people people in Purple Space. So, 350 people worked through 45 lessons. worked through 45 lessons. worked through 45 lessons. And I got to watch them talking to each And I got to watch them talking to each And I got to watch them talking to each other about each lesson. Mhm. other about each lesson. Mhm. other about each lesson. Mhm. That's priceless. Yeah. I wouldn't trade That's priceless. Yeah. I wouldn't trade That's priceless. Yeah. I wouldn't trade that for anything. I rewrote big that for anything. I rewrote big that for anything. I rewrote big sections of the book based on sections of the book based on sections of the book based on what they were confused by. what they were confused by. what they were confused by. If I had said to somebody, "Please edit If I had said to somebody, "Please edit If I had said to somebody, "Please edit this," they would've done a terrible this," they would've done a terrible this," they would've done a terrible job. Because they would've gotten all job. Because they would've gotten all job. Because they would've gotten all stressed about giving quote feedback or stressed about giving quote feedback or stressed about giving quote feedback or even criticism. But if I can watch So, even criticism. But if I can watch So, even criticism. But if I can watch So, great chefs great chefs great chefs look to see what's coming back to the look to see what's coming back to the look to see what's coming back to the kitchen uneaten. kitchen uneaten. kitchen uneaten. That's really useful information. That's really useful information. That's really useful information. Yeah, I think Okay, that's a really good Yeah, I think Okay, that's a really good Yeah, I think Okay, that's a really good point. So, you're getting maybe you point. So, you're getting maybe you point. So, you're getting maybe you could call it qualified feedback, could call it qualified feedback, could call it qualified feedback, helpful uh helpful uh helpful uh feedback. But the the random critics on feedback. But the the random critics on feedback. But the the random critics on the internet are generally not in your the internet are generally not in your the internet are generally not in your brain on a regular basis. Correct. So, brain on a regular basis. Correct. So, brain on a regular basis. Correct. So, that's an important distinction.

that's an important distinction. that's an important distinction. How does that make you a better writer, How does that make you a better writer, How does that make you a better writer, better thinker better thinker better thinker by not having that unsolicited By by not having that unsolicited By by not having that unsolicited By keeping the trolls away? Mhm. keeping the trolls away? Mhm. keeping the trolls away? Mhm. Well, Well, Well, you know, if you think about the mess you know, if you think about the mess you know, if you think about the mess of of of Northern Hemisphere politics, Northern Hemisphere politics, Northern Hemisphere politics, it's largely a mess because trolls are it's largely a mess because trolls are it's largely a mess because trolls are allowed. Mhm. And so, if you're a allowed. Mhm. And so, if you're a allowed. Mhm. And so, if you're a politician, you're spending almost all politician, you're spending almost all politician, you're spending almost all of your day listening to trolls. of your day listening to trolls. of your day listening to trolls. And you can't help it. You're going to And you can't help it. You're going to And you can't help it. You're going to start changing your behavior cuz of start changing your behavior cuz of start changing your behavior cuz of trolls. trolls. trolls. Whereas the vast majority, 80, 90% of Whereas the vast majority, 80, 90% of Whereas the vast majority, 80, 90% of the population wants you to do a thing, the population wants you to do a thing, the population wants you to do a thing, you don't hear from those people. you don't hear from those people. you don't hear from those people. And so, what it's helped me the most And so, what it's helped me the most And so, what it's helped me the most with is the trolls who insist that, you with is the trolls who insist that, you with is the trolls who insist that, you know, I tell know, I tell know, I tell soul-bearing stories about myself, that soul-bearing stories about myself, that soul-bearing stories about myself, that I'm fully authentic, that I race after I'm fully authentic, that I race after I'm fully authentic, that I race after TikTok traffic, that I TikTok traffic, that I TikTok traffic, that I become an influencer for nootropic become an influencer for nootropic become an influencer for nootropic placebos. What if all of that stuff placebos. What if all of that stuff placebos. What if all of that stuff I My peers, I've seen them run down I My peers, I've seen them run down I My peers, I've seen them run down those roads.

those roads. those roads. And people who do that rarely come back And people who do that rarely come back And people who do that rarely come back and say, "Oh yeah, I'm glad I wasted a and say, "Oh yeah, I'm glad I wasted a and say, "Oh yeah, I'm glad I wasted a year of my life hyping NFTs." year of my life hyping NFTs." year of my life hyping NFTs." Right? So, Right? So, Right? So, It wasn't you. It wasn't you. It wasn't you. I have work to do, and if the trolls I have work to do, and if the trolls I have work to do, and if the trolls want me to do something else, they're want me to do something else, they're want me to do something else, they're entitled to want that, but I don't have entitled to want that, but I don't have entitled to want that, but I don't have to listen to them. to listen to them. to listen to them. I'm thinking about The reason I'm I'm I'm thinking about The reason I'm I'm I'm thinking about The reason I'm I'm going down this road is I'm thinking going down this road is I'm thinking going down this road is I'm thinking about all the preachers who are about all the preachers who are about all the preachers who are listening and communicators, the public listening and communicators, the public listening and communicators, the public speakers. speakers. speakers. So, 99% of them are going to have a So, 99% of them are going to have a So, 99% of them are going to have a social media profile. social media profile. social media profile. That's part of the game we play these That's part of the game we play these That's part of the game we play these days, and it actually is a a great way days, and it actually is a a great way days, and it actually is a a great way of connecting your message with people. of connecting your message with people. of connecting your message with people. Do you have any advice for them short of Do you have any advice for them short of Do you have any advice for them short of getting off social media of of how to getting off social media of of how to getting off social media of of how to Because I I think Because I I think Because I I think you know, what you said about the people you know, what you said about the people you know, what you said about the people inside Purple Space, which is a inside Purple Space, which is a inside Purple Space, which is a dedicated community that you are part of dedicated community that you are part of dedicated community that you are part of and other thoughtful people are part of, and other thoughtful people are part of, and other thoughtful people are part of, uh getting expert critique, that's super uh getting expert critique, that's super uh getting expert critique, that's super helpful. That's super valuable. I think helpful. That's super valuable. I think helpful. That's super valuable. I think the trap a lot of the trap a lot of the trap a lot of people fall into is that they don't get people fall into is that they don't get people fall into is that they don't get the expert help. They just get the the the expert help. They just get the the the expert help. They just get the the public comments and the trolls. So, I public comments and the trolls. So, I public comments and the trolls. So, I wonder what advice you would have to wonder what advice you would have to wonder what advice you would have to them about how to them about how to them about how to uh deal with that if they're going to uh deal with that if they're going to uh deal with that if they're going to stay on social media, or you might say stay on social media, or you might say stay on social media, or you might say might as well get off social.

might as well get off social. might as well get off social. I It's a two-part story. Yeah. The first I It's a two-part story. Yeah. The first I It's a two-part story. Yeah. The first part is a bunch of years ago, I went part is a bunch of years ago, I went part is a bunch of years ago, I went down to Atlanta and spoke to Catalyst. down to Atlanta and spoke to Catalyst. down to Atlanta and spoke to Catalyst. Yeah. And I wanted to be respectful. I Yeah. And I wanted to be respectful. I Yeah. And I wanted to be respectful. I spent spent spent 3 months pretty much full-time getting a 3 months pretty much full-time getting a 3 months pretty much full-time getting a totally different talk ready for that totally different talk ready for that totally different talk ready for that event. event. event. Wow. Wow. Wow. And And And I crushed it. I was really pleased at I crushed it. I was really pleased at I crushed it. I was really pleased at how it went. I mean, it was in a how it went. I mean, it was in a how it went. I mean, it was in a round auditorium with 15,000 people. round auditorium with 15,000 people. round auditorium with 15,000 people. It's not a good venue for a speaker like It's not a good venue for a speaker like It's not a good venue for a speaker like me. True. me. True. me. True. And And And I felt really good about it. And in the I felt really good about it. And in the I felt really good about it. And in the car on the way back to the airport, I car on the way back to the airport, I car on the way back to the airport, I opened my phone and I looked to see what opened my phone and I looked to see what opened my phone and I looked to see what people were saying about it on Twitter. people were saying about it on Twitter. people were saying about it on Twitter. Cuz in Atlanta, it was trending. Cuz in Atlanta, it was trending. Cuz in Atlanta, it was trending. "Great, he did super. I didn't expect "Great, he did super. I didn't expect "Great, he did super. I didn't expect this. This was terrific." And then the this. This was terrific." And then the this. This was terrific." And then the seventh person was like really cruel. seventh person was like really cruel. seventh person was like really cruel. And it ruined my day. It just ruined my And it ruined my day. It just ruined my And it ruined my day. It just ruined my day. day. day. And I said to myself, "I'm never And I said to myself, "I'm never And I said to myself, "I'm never doing that again." That was the first doing that again." That was the first doing that again." That was the first story. Second story. story. Second story. story. Second story. The other thing that's really hard for The other thing that's really hard for The other thing that's really hard for me are convention centers and me are convention centers and me are convention centers and simultaneous translation. Mhm. Cuz simultaneous translation. Mhm. Cuz simultaneous translation. Mhm. Cuz convention centers aren't good for talk, convention centers aren't good for talk, convention centers aren't good for talk, and simultaneous translation means and simultaneous translation means and simultaneous translation means the audience already feels you're the audience already feels you're the audience already feels you're disrespectful cuz you don't speak their disrespectful cuz you don't speak their disrespectful cuz you don't speak their language, and anything you say that's language, and anything you say that's language, and anything you say that's funny doesn't get a response for 5 funny doesn't get a response for 5 funny doesn't get a response for 5 seconds. So, it's all very Right?

seconds. So, it's all very Right? seconds. So, it's all very Right? So, I'm in Mexico City, simultaneous So, I'm in Mexico City, simultaneous So, I'm in Mexico City, simultaneous translation in a convention center. translation in a convention center. translation in a convention center. This is This is This is 15 years ago, so it's early days for the 15 years ago, so it's early days for the 15 years ago, so it's early days for the phone. phone. phone. And there's 2,500 people there, and in And there's 2,500 people there, and in And there's 2,500 people there, and in the third row, there's a woman on her the third row, there's a woman on her the third row, there's a woman on her cell phone. But she's not listening. cell phone. But she's not listening. cell phone. But she's not listening. She's talking She's talking She's talking in Spanish while I'm giving my talk. in Spanish while I'm giving my talk. in Spanish while I'm giving my talk. So, I I don't have a script. So, I I don't have a script. So, I I don't have a script. I have slides, and while I'm doing my I have slides, and while I'm doing my I have slides, and while I'm doing my thing, I'm aiming every story and all my thing, I'm aiming every story and all my thing, I'm aiming every story and all my energy at this woman. I'm going to get energy at this woman. I'm going to get energy at this woman. I'm going to get her to hang up the phone and pay her to hang up the phone and pay her to hang up the phone and pay attention. I turn every story into a attention. I turn every story into a attention. I turn every story into a story about cell phones. All of it, story about cell phones. All of it, story about cell phones. All of it, right? right? right? And after about 4 minutes, Zig Ziglar's And after about 4 minutes, Zig Ziglar's And after about 4 minutes, Zig Ziglar's voice came into my head. voice came into my head. voice came into my head. And Zig said, And Zig said, And Zig said, "Hey Seth, there's 2,900 people who came "Hey Seth, there's 2,900 people who came "Hey Seth, there's 2,900 people who came here for you, here for you, here for you, and one person who's talking on the and one person who's talking on the and one person who's talking on the phone. phone. phone. Why can't you just forgive her Why can't you just forgive her Why can't you just forgive her and be here for the people who came for and be here for the people who came for and be here for the people who came for you?"

you?" you?" And it absolutely changed my life. And it absolutely changed my life. And it absolutely changed my life. Mhm. And so, what I would say to Mhm. And so, what I would say to Mhm. And so, what I would say to somebody somebody somebody who's on social media, who's doing this who's on social media, who's doing this who's on social media, who's doing this kind of leadership spiritual work, is kind of leadership spiritual work, is kind of leadership spiritual work, is first of all, are you clear first of all, are you clear first of all, are you clear about the proxies? What are you about the proxies? What are you about the proxies? What are you measuring? measuring? measuring? If your goal is to have more bigger If your goal is to have more bigger If your goal is to have more bigger numbers, numbers, numbers, then keep doing things that are then keep doing things that are then keep doing things that are controversial and current, cuz that's controversial and current, cuz that's controversial and current, cuz that's what the method is. what the method is. what the method is. If your goal is to make a change happen, If your goal is to make a change happen, If your goal is to make a change happen, then stop paying attention to false then stop paying attention to false then stop paying attention to false proxies, cuz the false proxies are proxies, cuz the false proxies are proxies, cuz the false proxies are confusing you. confusing you. confusing you. Right? The same way the collection plate Right? The same way the collection plate Right? The same way the collection plate is a false proxy, cuz if you want to is a false proxy, cuz if you want to is a false proxy, cuz if you want to make the money in the collection plate make the money in the collection plate make the money in the collection plate go up, just tell people the roof is go up, just tell people the roof is go up, just tell people the roof is going to fall down and the fire going to fall down and the fire going to fall down and the fire inspector is going to shut you down. inspector is going to shut you down. inspector is going to shut you down. Right? You can't get away with that very Right? You can't get away with that very Right? You can't get away with that very often, but you can raise a lot of money. often, but you can raise a lot of money. often, but you can raise a lot of money. It's That's not a proxy for whether It's That's not a proxy for whether It's That's not a proxy for whether you're good at your job. It's a proxy you're good at your job. It's a proxy you're good at your job. It's a proxy for are you good at raising money? Those for are you good at raising money? Those for are you good at raising money? Those are different things.

are different things. are different things. So, if you're on social media, So, if you're on social media, So, if you're on social media, are there are there are there 300 people who, when they have a 300 people who, when they have a 300 people who, when they have a comment, comment, comment, they're the kind of person you're trying they're the kind of person you're trying they're the kind of person you're trying to reach. When they have a comment, to reach. When they have a comment, to reach. When they have a comment, their comment tells you the truth about their comment tells you the truth about their comment tells you the truth about a group of people you're trying to a group of people you're trying to a group of people you're trying to reach. You should obsess about those reach. You should obsess about those reach. You should obsess about those people. people. people. But, if a fly-by person shows up and But, if a fly-by person shows up and But, if a fly-by person shows up and you're never going to see them again, you're never going to see them again, you're never going to see them again, and they have something to say, and they have something to say, and they have something to say, their comment is a false proxy. And their comment is a false proxy. And their comment is a false proxy. And maybe you have to hire an admin to maybe you have to hire an admin to maybe you have to hire an admin to filter them all out, but don't tell me filter them all out, but don't tell me filter them all out, but don't tell me you can ignore it. I don't think you you can ignore it. I don't think you you can ignore it. I don't think you can, not if you're a human. I think that can, not if you're a human. I think that can, not if you're a human. I think that as soon as a proxy shows up that's easy as soon as a proxy shows up that's easy as soon as a proxy shows up that's easy to measure, to measure, to measure, we start to measure it. we start to measure it. we start to measure it. I'd love to I I I love reading I'd love to I I I love reading I'd love to I I I love reading acknowledgements in books. It's a lot of acknowledgements in books. It's a lot of acknowledgements in books. It's a lot of fun, and I read your acknowledgements, fun, and I read your acknowledgements, fun, and I read your acknowledgements, and I thought, "Wow, that's a good and I thought, "Wow, that's a good and I thought, "Wow, that's a good lineup." Like when you look at some of lineup." Like when you look at some of lineup." Like when you look at some of the people who were able to give you the people who were able to give you the people who were able to give you feedback. You had Tim Ferriss, you had feedback. You had Tim Ferriss, you had feedback. You had Tim Ferriss, you had Will Gaddara, who's going to be on this Will Gaddara, who's going to be on this Will Gaddara, who's going to be on this podcast again shortly. Uh I mean, those podcast again shortly. Uh I mean, those podcast again shortly. Uh I mean, those are just a couple of names that popped are just a couple of names that popped are just a couple of names that popped out. Uh if you're talking to a leader out. Uh if you're talking to a leader out. Uh if you're talking to a leader who doesn't have perhaps the the who doesn't have perhaps the the who doesn't have perhaps the the connections that you do, or even that I connections that you do, or even that I connections that you do, or even that I have the privilege of having at this have the privilege of having at this have the privilege of having at this point in my life, and they're starting point in my life, and they're starting point in my life, and they're starting out again. I'm thinking to myself when out again. I'm thinking to myself when out again. I'm thinking to myself when I'm 31.

I'm 31. I'm 31. All right, I'm just starting out in a All right, I'm just starting out in a All right, I'm just starting out in a little tiny church in Aurora, Donte. little tiny church in Aurora, Donte. little tiny church in Aurora, Donte. How do I get expert opinions How do I get expert opinions How do I get expert opinions on that that can make me, you know, I I on that that can make me, you know, I I on that that can make me, you know, I I get this question all the time from get this question all the time from get this question all the time from communicators. It's like, "How do I get communicators. It's like, "How do I get communicators. It's like, "How do I get proper feedback on my sermon?" And I'm proper feedback on my sermon?" And I'm proper feedback on my sermon?" And I'm like, "Well, don't trust your like, "Well, don't trust your like, "Well, don't trust your congregation, cuz all they can tell you congregation, cuz all they can tell you congregation, cuz all they can tell you is it was good or it wasn't very good, is it was good or it wasn't very good, is it was good or it wasn't very good, and they'll probably be overly polite." and they'll probably be overly polite." and they'll probably be overly polite." And I said, "It's not helpful, even with And I said, "It's not helpful, even with And I said, "It's not helpful, even with your staff, because you're like, 'Okay, your staff, because you're like, 'Okay, your staff, because you're like, 'Okay, well, why was it good?'" And they're well, why was it good?'" And they're well, why was it good?'" And they're like, "I don't know, it was just good." like, "I don't know, it was just good." like, "I don't know, it was just good." "Why was it bad?" "I don't know, it was "Why was it bad?" "I don't know, it was "Why was it bad?" "I don't know, it was just bad." The person to deconstruct just bad." The person to deconstruct just bad." The person to deconstruct your talk is another communicator, your talk is another communicator, your talk is another communicator, because the other communicator can say, because the other communicator can say, because the other communicator can say, "Okay, when you opened with this, you "Okay, when you opened with this, you "Okay, when you opened with this, you lost people, and here's why you lost lost people, and here's why you lost lost people, and here's why you lost people." Or, "When you told this story, people." Or, "When you told this story, people." Or, "When you told this story, everybody leaned in. It was just everybody leaned in. It was just everybody leaned in. It was just fantastic." So, I'm wondering how they fantastic." So, I'm wondering how they fantastic." So, I'm wondering how they could get, you know, any advice for them could get, you know, any advice for them could get, you know, any advice for them on how to get that kind of on how to get that kind of on how to get that kind of helpful feedback early on. Okay, so let's break this into little Okay, so let's break this into little pieces. First of all, pieces. First of all, pieces. First of all, I gave Will advice on his book, and it I gave Will advice on his book, and it I gave Will advice on his book, and it wasn't very good.

wasn't very good. wasn't very good. So, The advice or the book? The advice. So, The advice or the book? The advice. So, The advice or the book? The advice. The book The book The book you gave Will. The advice is great. The you gave Will. The advice is great. The you gave Will. The advice is great. The book is great. The advice Yeah. wasn't book is great. The advice Yeah. wasn't book is great. The advice Yeah. wasn't in sync with where he was going. Um and in sync with where he was going. Um and in sync with where he was going. Um and he was a really good sport about it. he was a really good sport about it. he was a really good sport about it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Well-known people Well-known people Well-known people aren't the people you need advice from. aren't the people you need advice from. aren't the people you need advice from. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And there's this And there's this And there's this imagination that is the green room at imagination that is the green room at imagination that is the green room at TED. All these people behind the scenes TED. All these people behind the scenes TED. All these people behind the scenes are sharing secrets, and if you could are sharing secrets, and if you could are sharing secrets, and if you could only hear that, you'd do fine. This is only hear that, you'd do fine. This is only hear that, you'd do fine. This is not true. Um not true. Um not true. Um the people who actually read my book, the people who actually read my book, the people who actually read my book, in the acknowledgements I mentioned who in the acknowledgements I mentioned who in the acknowledgements I mentioned who they are. You never heard of any of they are. You never heard of any of they are. You never heard of any of those people. Mhm. Will didn't read my those people. Mhm. Will didn't read my those people. Mhm. Will didn't read my book. Tim didn't read my book, not yet. book. Tim didn't read my book, not yet. book. Tim didn't read my book, not yet. I was thanking them for putting up with I was thanking them for putting up with I was thanking them for putting up with me. Ah, got you. me. Ah, got you. me. Ah, got you. And the thing is And the thing is And the thing is that that that what you want what you want what you want is first to learn how to be good at is first to learn how to be good at is first to learn how to be good at listening listening listening to the feedback to the feedback to the feedback about what you're doing.

about what you're doing. about what you're doing. Because most people don't, including me. Because most people don't, including me. Because most people don't, including me. So, So, So, you're going to constantly be wasting you're going to constantly be wasting you're going to constantly be wasting people's time asking them for feedback people's time asking them for feedback people's time asking them for feedback without understanding the concepts that without understanding the concepts that without understanding the concepts that they're trying to teach you. they're trying to teach you. they're trying to teach you. And I can remember there've been And I can remember there've been And I can remember there've been a dozen times when someone, again, a dozen times when someone, again, a dozen times when someone, again, someone you've never heard of, different someone you've never heard of, different someone you've never heard of, different people, has said something to me at a people, has said something to me at a people, has said something to me at a moment when I was ready to hear them. moment when I was ready to hear them. moment when I was ready to hear them. So, when I was a book packager, I sold So, when I was a book packager, I sold So, when I was a book packager, I sold my first book the first day my first book the first day my first book the first day for $5,000. Chip Conley and I split the for $5,000. Chip Conley and I split the for $5,000. Chip Conley and I split the money. money. money. And I thought, "Wow, if I could do that And I thought, "Wow, if I could do that And I thought, "Wow, if I could do that once a week, I could make a living at once a week, I could make a living at once a week, I could make a living at this." this." this." And then I got 800 rejection letters in And then I got 800 rejection letters in And then I got 800 rejection letters in a row. a row. a row. 800 times someone in book publishing 800 times someone in book publishing 800 times someone in book publishing bought a stamp, put it in an envelope, bought a stamp, put it in an envelope, bought a stamp, put it in an envelope, mailed me a letter that said, mailed me a letter that said, mailed me a letter that said, "We don't like your work at all. Go "We don't like your work at all. Go "We don't like your work at all. Go away." away." away." That's a lot of negative feedback. That's a lot of negative feedback. That's a lot of negative feedback. Then I met this guy named John Boswell. Then I met this guy named John Boswell. Then I met this guy named John Boswell. Boswell did a Boswell did a Boswell did a uh OJ's Legal Pad, French for Cats, a uh OJ's Legal Pad, French for Cats, a uh OJ's Legal Pad, French for Cats, a bunch of cash register type clever bunch of cash register type clever bunch of cash register type clever books.

books. books. I had a really good idea for a book, and I had a really good idea for a book, and I had a really good idea for a book, and I made him half owner, so I could learn I made him half owner, so I could learn I made him half owner, so I could learn how he sold stuff. how he sold stuff. how he sold stuff. And he looked at my proposal, which was And he looked at my proposal, which was And he looked at my proposal, which was typeset and beautiful, and had a typeset and beautiful, and had a typeset and beautiful, and had a spreadsheet. And using a lot of spreadsheet. And using a lot of spreadsheet. And using a lot of profanity, he ripped it into shreds and profanity, he ripped it into shreds and profanity, he ripped it into shreds and threw it in the garbage. And he said, threw it in the garbage. And he said, threw it in the garbage. And he said, "Listen, book publishing people, they "Listen, book publishing people, they "Listen, book publishing people, they don't care that you have an MBA." don't care that you have an MBA." don't care that you have an MBA." And he called in his And he called in his And he called in his admin, who he called his secretary. She admin, who he called his secretary. She admin, who he called his secretary. She used carbon paper, used carbon paper, used carbon paper, and typed the proposal on carbon paper, and typed the proposal on carbon paper, and typed the proposal on carbon paper, three pages, just a bunch of, three pages, just a bunch of, three pages, just a bunch of, you know, wild assertions. That was the you know, wild assertions. That was the you know, wild assertions. That was the entire proposal. entire proposal. entire proposal. He said, "Cuz we're trying to sell them He said, "Cuz we're trying to sell them He said, "Cuz we're trying to sell them something they want to buy, something they want to buy, something they want to buy, not something that's true, not something not something that's true, not something not something that's true, not something that's right." that's right." that's right." And he sold it the next day. And he sold it the next day. And he sold it the next day. And the lesson for me was that I had And the lesson for me was that I had And the lesson for me was that I had been arrogant. been arrogant. been arrogant. I'd been saying, "If I were you, this is I'd been saying, "If I were you, this is I'd been saying, "If I were you, this is what I would publish." what I would publish." what I would publish." As opposed to saying, "You are you, As opposed to saying, "You are you, As opposed to saying, "You are you, and based on who you are, I think this and based on who you are, I think this and based on who you are, I think this is what you want to publish." Mhm. And is what you want to publish." Mhm. And is what you want to publish." Mhm. And if I hadn't failed 800 times in a row, if I hadn't failed 800 times in a row, if I hadn't failed 800 times in a row, there's no way I would have listened to there's no way I would have listened to there's no way I would have listened to Boswell.

Boswell. Boswell. I was ready to hear that. I was ready to hear that. I was ready to hear that. And I can give people, And I can give people, And I can give people, I think, incisive feedback on structure I think, incisive feedback on structure I think, incisive feedback on structure of their book, or how to give a talk. of their book, or how to give a talk. of their book, or how to give a talk. And if they're not ready to hear it, we And if they're not ready to hear it, we And if they're not ready to hear it, we just wasted everybody's time. Mhm. just wasted everybody's time. Mhm. just wasted everybody's time. Mhm. How did you keep going How did you keep going How did you keep going amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, amidst 800 rejections? That's not easy, man. I might have quit at 80, Seth. There were two things. The first one is There were two things. The first one is the rejections kept getting better. the rejections kept getting better. the rejections kept getting better. Oh. Oh. Oh. That That That the first 100 rejections were no. the first 100 rejections were no. the first 100 rejections were no. The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this The second 100 rejections are, "Oh, this is much better than the last one you is much better than the last one you is much better than the last one you sent me. Keep going." No. sent me. Keep going." No. sent me. Keep going." No. And by the time it was And by the time it was And by the time it was up to three or 400, I knew I was on the up to three or 400, I knew I was on the up to three or 400, I knew I was on the verge of something. So, I wasn't verge of something. So, I wasn't verge of something. So, I wasn't harassing people. Mhm. We were both harassing people. Mhm. We were both harassing people. Mhm. We were both learning about each other. learning about each other. learning about each other. And the second thing was, And the second thing was, And the second thing was, if I didn't succeed at that, I was going if I didn't succeed at that, I was going if I didn't succeed at that, I was going to have to get a job as a bank teller. to have to get a job as a bank teller. to have to get a job as a bank teller. And just reminding myself of how bad And just reminding myself of how bad And just reminding myself of how bad that would be that would be that would be kept me going.

kept me going. kept me going. It's not like now, where I could find a It's not like now, where I could find a It's not like now, where I could find a 300 ways for someone with no money to 300 ways for someone with no money to 300 ways for someone with no money to become an entrepreneur. become an entrepreneur. become an entrepreneur. This was the only thing I could do. I This was the only thing I could do. I This was the only thing I could do. I don't know why it was the only thing I don't know why it was the only thing I don't know why it was the only thing I could do, but I didn't have a a plan B. could do, but I didn't have a a plan B. could do, but I didn't have a a plan B. Like I paid the bills by building a Like I paid the bills by building a Like I paid the bills by building a spreadsheet for a a chain of nursing spreadsheet for a a chain of nursing spreadsheet for a a chain of nursing homes that was acquiring another chain homes that was acquiring another chain homes that was acquiring another chain of nursing homes. Cuz I have an MBA. I of nursing homes. Cuz I have an MBA. I of nursing homes. Cuz I have an MBA. I knew how to do it, but I hated it. Mhm. knew how to do it, but I hated it. Mhm. knew how to do it, but I hated it. Mhm. But, those $20,000 paid the mortgage for But, those $20,000 paid the mortgage for But, those $20,000 paid the mortgage for the year, so I could keep going. My wife the year, so I could keep going. My wife the year, so I could keep going. My wife and I used to go window shopping at and I used to go window shopping at and I used to go window shopping at restaurants, and then go home and have restaurants, and then go home and have restaurants, and then go home and have macaroni and cheese. One of the things I did not know about One of the things I did not know about you, and it's just a line or two in the you, and it's just a line or two in the you, and it's just a line or two in the book, but you produced a record or two. book, but you produced a record or two. book, but you produced a record or two. Three. Yes. Three. Yes. Three. Yes. Three records. Three records. So, you Three records. Three records. So, you Three records. Three records. So, you and Brian Koppelman, fascinating. I and Brian Koppelman, fascinating. I and Brian Koppelman, fascinating. I mean, Tracy Chapman's Fast Car, right? mean, Tracy Chapman's Fast Car, right? mean, Tracy Chapman's Fast Car, right? And can you talk about why record And can you talk about why record And can you talk about why record producing, some of the lessons you producing, some of the lessons you producing, some of the lessons you learned in that excursion, and more? learned in that excursion, and more? learned in that excursion, and more? It's just fascinating. It's just fascinating. It's just fascinating. talk about this through the lens of the talk about this through the lens of the talk about this through the lens of the book. Um book. Um book. Um I will make the story a little bit I will make the story a little bit I will make the story a little bit shorter, but you can look up some of the shorter, but you can look up some of the shorter, but you can look up some of the details.

details. details. Philips made cassettes till the patent Philips made cassettes till the patent Philips made cassettes till the patent ran out, ran out, ran out, and then Sony and Philips made CDs. It and then Sony and Philips made CDs. It and then Sony and Philips made CDs. It was extremely profitable. Every CD sold, was extremely profitable. Every CD sold, was extremely profitable. Every CD sold, every CD player sold, they made money. every CD player sold, they made money. every CD player sold, they made money. Patent ran out, so Sony came out with Patent ran out, so Sony came out with Patent ran out, so Sony came out with SACD, which was MP3 proof, rip proof, SACD, which was MP3 proof, rip proof, SACD, which was MP3 proof, rip proof, four times the information density, four times the information density, four times the information density, sounded dramatically better. sounded dramatically better. sounded dramatically better. Dramatically better. An SACD cost 30 Dramatically better. An SACD cost 30 Dramatically better. An SACD cost 30 bucks, and you needed a $4,000 player to bucks, and you needed a $4,000 player to bucks, and you needed a $4,000 player to listen to it. So, if you had a high-end listen to it. So, if you had a high-end listen to it. So, if you had a high-end stereo, you knew about this. Nobody else stereo, you knew about this. Nobody else stereo, you knew about this. Nobody else did. did. did. Uh I aspired to have a high-end stereo. Uh I aspired to have a high-end stereo. Uh I aspired to have a high-end stereo. I had a subscription to Stereophile I had a subscription to Stereophile I had a subscription to Stereophile magazine, and so I I understood with magazine, and so I I understood with magazine, and so I I understood with empathy the the community. empathy the the community. empathy the the community. Sony forgot to make the device that you Sony forgot to make the device that you Sony forgot to make the device that you needed to record SACDs. They had a few needed to record SACDs. They had a few needed to record SACDs. They had a few handmade ones that they were using in handmade ones that they were using in handmade ones that they were using in their studio, but no one else really their studio, but no one else really their studio, but no one else really could. So, there was a shortage of could. So, there was a shortage of could. So, there was a shortage of SACDs. SACDs. SACDs. I found a guy in London, I don't know I found a guy in London, I don't know I found a guy in London, I don't know how, who had one, who built one, how, who had one, who built one, how, who had one, who built one, and I bought it for $3,000.

and I bought it for $3,000. and I bought it for $3,000. So, now I could make SACDs. So, now I could make SACDs. So, now I could make SACDs. So, I decide to do this experiment, So, I decide to do this experiment, So, I decide to do this experiment, which is rent a church, live to two which is rent a church, live to two which is rent a church, live to two track, no compression, track, no compression, track, no compression, acoustic groups that I admired, who no acoustic groups that I admired, who no acoustic groups that I admired, who no one had ever heard of. one had ever heard of. one had ever heard of. I will teach myself how to produce. I I will teach myself how to produce. I I will teach myself how to produce. I got large format Neumann microphones. got large format Neumann microphones. got large format Neumann microphones. And then I ran a full page ad in And then I ran a full page ad in And then I ran a full page ad in Stereophile magazine. And it said, Stereophile magazine. And it said, Stereophile magazine. And it said, "Here's the deal. I'm starting a record "Here's the deal. I'm starting a record "Here's the deal. I'm starting a record label. label. label. There's only going to be five records a There's only going to be five records a There's only going to be five records a year. year. year. And instead of charging $30 a record, And instead of charging $30 a record, And instead of charging $30 a record, I'm going to charge you 15. I'm going to charge you 15. I'm going to charge you 15. But you don't get to pick. They just But you don't get to pick. They just But you don't get to pick. They just come by subscription. Cuz you love great come by subscription. Cuz you love great come by subscription. Cuz you love great music, you have a great stereo, you music, you have a great stereo, you music, you have a great stereo, you don't have enough SACDs. Here you go. don't have enough SACDs. Here you go. don't have enough SACDs. Here you go. First one's five bucks. Postage and First one's five bucks. Postage and First one's five bucks. Postage and handling is free. And handling is free. And handling is free. And let me know if you're interested. let me know if you're interested. let me know if you're interested. It's the most successful ad I ever It's the most successful ad I ever It's the most successful ad I ever wrote. wrote. wrote. I got 3,000 I got 3,000 I got 3,000 $5 bills in the mail. So now I got to go make these records So now I got to go make these records and turn these people into subscribers.

and turn these people into subscribers. and turn these people into subscribers. So So So one of the records I made is actually one of the records I made is actually one of the records I made is actually great and you can listen to it on great and you can listen to it on great and you can listen to it on Spotify. I'm proud of the other two, but Spotify. I'm proud of the other two, but Spotify. I'm proud of the other two, but the one that's on Spotify is great. And the one that's on Spotify is great. And the one that's on Spotify is great. And um so I launched this record. I sent it um so I launched this record. I sent it um so I launched this record. I sent it to these 3,000 people to these 3,000 people to these 3,000 people with a form. Here's how you subscribe. with a form. Here's how you subscribe. with a form. Here's how you subscribe. I got four subscriptions. I get failed, right? My idea with the I get failed, right? My idea with the musicians was you get to keep all the musicians was you get to keep all the musicians was you get to keep all the money from your record. I'm not going to money from your record. I'm not going to money from your record. I'm not going to make money for you records and records make money for you records and records make money for you records and records down the road. Right now that you're down the road. Right now that you're down the road. Right now that you're guinea pigs, you're going first, you guinea pigs, you're going first, you guinea pigs, you're going first, you keep all the money. keep all the money. keep all the money. So So So now I write a letter by hand to 50 of now I write a letter by hand to 50 of now I write a letter by hand to 50 of these people. I'm not trying to change these people. I'm not trying to change these people. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm not trying to upsell you. your mind. I'm not trying to upsell you. your mind. I'm not trying to upsell you. But could you just tell me why you But could you just tell me why you But could you just tell me why you didn't subscribe? didn't subscribe? didn't subscribe? And I gave them some choices. And almost And I gave them some choices. And almost And I gave them some choices. And almost all of them wrote back. all of them wrote back. all of them wrote back. And some said And some said And some said too many covers, not enough covers, too too many covers, not enough covers, too too many covers, not enough covers, too raucous, not raucous enough. Too much raucous, not raucous enough. Too much raucous, not raucous enough. Too much cut, right? They all disagreed with you. cut, right? They all disagreed with you. cut, right? They all disagreed with you. So clearly they didn't know how to give So clearly they didn't know how to give So clearly they didn't know how to give me criticism. Cuz they didn't know what me criticism. Cuz they didn't know what me criticism. Cuz they didn't know what they were. So now back to systems they were. So now back to systems they were. So now back to systems thinking.

thinking. thinking. They responded to the ad in the first They responded to the ad in the first They responded to the ad in the first place cuz I created tension of I have place cuz I created tension of I have place cuz I created tension of I have something and you don't know what it is, something and you don't know what it is, something and you don't know what it is, but you can find out for $5. but you can find out for $5. but you can find out for $5. And if you own a $30,000 stereo, why And if you own a $30,000 stereo, why And if you own a $30,000 stereo, why not, right? not, right? not, right? But subscribing But subscribing But subscribing would mean would mean would mean lowering their status by A, giving me lowering their status by A, giving me lowering their status by A, giving me the right to pick the music. the right to pick the music. the right to pick the music. And B, risking their status and And B, risking their status and And B, risking their status and affiliation cuz if you have a high-end affiliation cuz if you have a high-end affiliation cuz if you have a high-end stereo, you're playing it for your stereo, you're playing it for your stereo, you're playing it for your friends. friends. friends. And if you play Joni Mitchell or Neil And if you play Joni Mitchell or Neil And if you play Joni Mitchell or Neil Young or one of the great Canadian Young or one of the great Canadian Young or one of the great Canadian artists, you're very confident that no artists, you're very confident that no artists, you're very confident that no one's going to say that's lousy music. one's going to say that's lousy music. one's going to say that's lousy music. But if you're playing this unknown But if you're playing this unknown But if you're playing this unknown music, you're taking a risk. music, you're taking a risk. music, you're taking a risk. And so I didn't understand strategy at And so I didn't understand strategy at And so I didn't understand strategy at the time. I was selling them what I the time. I was selling them what I the time. I was selling them what I wanted to buy instead of selling them wanted to buy instead of selling them wanted to buy instead of selling them what they needed, which is a new new new what they needed, which is a new new new what they needed, which is a new new new remastering of Blonde on Blonde that remastering of Blonde on Blonde that remastering of Blonde on Blonde that they could show off in front of their they could show off in front of their they could show off in front of their friends. friends. friends. Oh, wow. Wow. You know, some people just Oh, wow. Wow. You know, some people just Oh, wow. Wow. You know, some people just get more and more complexly interesting get more and more complexly interesting get more and more complexly interesting as you get to know them. That's as you get to know them. That's as you get to know them. That's fascinating. I had no idea. There was fascinating. I had no idea. There was fascinating. I had no idea. There was just a couple of lines in the book and just a couple of lines in the book and just a couple of lines in the book and I'm like, I got to ask. That's that's I'm like, I got to ask. That's that's I'm like, I got to ask. That's that's fascinating. Are you still like a fascinating. Are you still like a fascinating. Are you still like a stereophile? You have a listening room stereophile? You have a listening room stereophile? You have a listening room or anything?

or anything? or anything? if we could talk about stereo for just a if we could talk about stereo for just a if we could talk about stereo for just a minute. minute. minute. Yeah. Okay. So until 1950, the way you Yeah. Okay. So until 1950, the way you Yeah. Okay. So until 1950, the way you amplified music was with tubes. Mhm. amplified music was with tubes. Mhm. amplified music was with tubes. Mhm. Tubes are sort of unreliable. They're Tubes are sort of unreliable. They're Tubes are sort of unreliable. They're sort of inefficient. But we got very sort of inefficient. But we got very sort of inefficient. But we got very good at making tubes. good at making tubes. good at making tubes. And the amount of power that comes out And the amount of power that comes out And the amount of power that comes out of a single-ended amplifier using 2A3 or of a single-ended amplifier using 2A3 or of a single-ended amplifier using 2A3 or 300B tubes is about 3 watts per channel. 300B tubes is about 3 watts per channel. 300B tubes is about 3 watts per channel. So in order for that to work, you need a So in order for that to work, you need a So in order for that to work, you need a speaker that's really efficient that can speaker that's really efficient that can speaker that's really efficient that can turn a few watts into good sound. turn a few watts into good sound. turn a few watts into good sound. Then they invented the transistor. The Then they invented the transistor. The Then they invented the transistor. The transistor is incredibly cheap and transistor is incredibly cheap and transistor is incredibly cheap and reliable. That the the stereo in your reliable. That the the stereo in your reliable. That the the stereo in your car, this transistor cost about a car, this transistor cost about a car, this transistor cost about a dollar. Mhm. dollar. Mhm. dollar. Mhm. And it's putting out 60-80 watts, 20 And it's putting out 60-80 watts, 20 And it's putting out 60-80 watts, 20 times as much as a tube amp in your car times as much as a tube amp in your car times as much as a tube amp in your car for a dollar. for a dollar. for a dollar. Well Well Well once transistors showed up, the speaker once transistors showed up, the speaker once transistors showed up, the speaker companies said, "We don't have to make companies said, "We don't have to make companies said, "We don't have to make efficient speakers anymore." efficient speakers anymore." efficient speakers anymore." So they started making and almost every So they started making and almost every So they started making and almost every speaker you can buy now is very speaker you can buy now is very speaker you can buy now is very inefficient. It needs a lot of power to inefficient. It needs a lot of power to inefficient. It needs a lot of power to work.

work. work. So I have over there three different So I have over there three different So I have over there three different handmade, not by me, handmade, not by me, handmade, not by me, speakers, some 2A3s, some 300Bs that speakers, some 2A3s, some 300Bs that speakers, some 2A3s, some 300Bs that only put out 3 watts per channel. only put out 3 watts per channel. only put out 3 watts per channel. And they're hooked up to speakers I made And they're hooked up to speakers I made And they're hooked up to speakers I made that are incredibly efficient. that are incredibly efficient. that are incredibly efficient. And I will tell you that when you come And I will tell you that when you come And I will tell you that when you come over for dinner, Carrie, I'm going to over for dinner, Carrie, I'm going to over for dinner, Carrie, I'm going to play it for you. Oh. play it for you. Oh. play it for you. Oh. It will make your eyes fall out of your It will make your eyes fall out of your It will make your eyes fall out of your head. It's head. It's head. It's unbelievable. And not expensive like the unbelievable. And not expensive like the unbelievable. And not expensive like the stuff in Stereophile anymore. But it's stuff in Stereophile anymore. But it's stuff in Stereophile anymore. But it's just like just like just like ah. ah. ah. As soon as we hang up, I'm going to go As soon as we hang up, I'm going to go As soon as we hang up, I'm going to go listen cuz I I can't wait to go listen listen cuz I I can't wait to go listen listen cuz I I can't wait to go listen again. again. again. That's fascinating, you know. I was That's fascinating, you know. I was That's fascinating, you know. I was saying with a good friend of mine, we saying with a good friend of mine, we saying with a good friend of mine, we were out with good friends last night were out with good friends last night were out with good friends last night and I'm like, you know, I don't have a and I'm like, you know, I don't have a and I'm like, you know, I don't have a lot of hobbies left on the list. I'm lot of hobbies left on the list. I'm lot of hobbies left on the list. I'm doing a lot of things I really enjoy, doing a lot of things I really enjoy, doing a lot of things I really enjoy, but maybe one day a listening room. Like but maybe one day a listening room. Like but maybe one day a listening room. Like maybe one day. Was there a peak era for maybe one day. Was there a peak era for maybe one day. Was there a peak era for audio in your mind? I was arguing it was audio in your mind? I was arguing it was audio in your mind? I was arguing it was the '70s. That was probably, you know, the '70s. That was probably, you know, the '70s. That was probably, you know, you look at Marantz or Harman Kardon. you look at Marantz or Harman Kardon. you look at Marantz or Harman Kardon. for produced for produced for produced system the the equipment not the music. system the the equipment not the music. system the the equipment not the music. Itself. The system itself. Itself. The system itself. Itself. The system itself. the worst there has been in the history the worst there has been in the history the worst there has been in the history since Edison was the '70s. The '70s was since Edison was the '70s. The '70s was since Edison was the '70s. The '70s was the worst. You're The '70s was the the worst. You're The '70s was the the worst. You're The '70s was the worst. Like I have a fairly encyclopedic worst. Like I have a fairly encyclopedic worst. Like I have a fairly encyclopedic understanding of this cuz I've been understanding of this cuz I've been understanding of this cuz I've been reading Stereophile now for 40 years.

reading Stereophile now for 40 years. reading Stereophile now for 40 years. And And And um that was the worst because it was the um that was the worst because it was the um that was the worst because it was the peak of the transistor and when there peak of the transistor and when there peak of the transistor and when there were stereo stores everywhere. So they were stereo stores everywhere. So they were stereo stores everywhere. So they were all racing to make the cheapest were all racing to make the cheapest were all racing to make the cheapest junkiest stereos they could. junkiest stereos they could. junkiest stereos they could. That there are two peaks. There is the That there are two peaks. There is the That there are two peaks. There is the peak of the 1950s, which was the end of peak of the 1950s, which was the end of peak of the 1950s, which was the end of the tube era and the high-efficiency the tube era and the high-efficiency the tube era and the high-efficiency speakers. There's stuff from that era speakers. There's stuff from that era speakers. There's stuff from that era that's still magic. There's a company in that's still magic. There's a company in that's still magic. There's a company in Japan called Shindo. Ken Shindo still Japan called Shindo. Ken Shindo still Japan called Shindo. Ken Shindo still makes brand new at reasonable scale that makes brand new at reasonable scale that makes brand new at reasonable scale that kind of amplification equipment. kind of amplification equipment. kind of amplification equipment. And then the second golden era is right And then the second golden era is right And then the second golden era is right now. now. now. And that's because rich people have made And that's because rich people have made And that's because rich people have made it so you can actually sell a $100,000 it so you can actually sell a $100,000 it so you can actually sell a $100,000 pair of speakers and a $75,000 pair of speakers and a $75,000 pair of speakers and a $75,000 amplifier. I have heard these items. amplifier. I have heard these items. amplifier. I have heard these items. I've sat with the reviewers from I've sat with the reviewers from I've sat with the reviewers from Stereophile. And they're stunning. Stereophile. And they're stunning. Stereophile. And they're stunning. They're almost as good as my stereo, but They're almost as good as my stereo, but They're almost as good as my stereo, but they're stunning because they are crisp they're stunning because they are crisp they're stunning because they are crisp and perfect and precise. and perfect and precise. and perfect and precise. If you go to my friend Paul's company PS If you go to my friend Paul's company PS If you go to my friend Paul's company PS Audio, he has an entire line of modern Audio, he has an entire line of modern Audio, he has an entire line of modern stereo equipment that's not stupidly stereo equipment that's not stupidly stereo equipment that's not stupidly overpriced.

overpriced. overpriced. That is like peak value for your money That is like peak value for your money That is like peak value for your money magic in the current era. magic in the current era. magic in the current era. But it's it took us a long time to get But it's it took us a long time to get But it's it took us a long time to get through the '70s and the '80s cuz that's through the '70s and the '80s cuz that's through the '70s and the '80s cuz that's that's stuff. that's stuff. that's stuff. cuz it's my childhood and so it's very cuz it's my childhood and so it's very cuz it's my childhood and so it's very nostalgic for me. Well, I know who I'm nostalgic for me. Well, I know who I'm nostalgic for me. Well, I know who I'm going to talk to if I pursue that hobby going to talk to if I pursue that hobby going to talk to if I pursue that hobby for sure. I do want to talk about for sure. I do want to talk about for sure. I do want to talk about strategy. The book is is strategy. The book is is strategy. The book is is fantastic. How would you define strategy? Just so How would you define strategy? Just so we know exactly what we're talking we know exactly what we're talking we know exactly what we're talking about. about. about. So let me um So let me um So let me um say it in the words that I hope your say it in the words that I hope your say it in the words that I hope your listeners will resonate the most with. listeners will resonate the most with. listeners will resonate the most with. When the person you're hoping to be When the person you're hoping to be When the person you're hoping to be meets the person you are becoming, meets the person you are becoming, meets the person you are becoming, how's that meeting going to go? Cuz we have choices to make. Cuz we have choices to make. And we could just do what we're told and And we could just do what we're told and And we could just do what we're told and be a cog in the system. We could indulge be a cog in the system. We could indulge be a cog in the system. We could indulge our short-term emergencies. Or we could our short-term emergencies. Or we could our short-term emergencies. Or we could invest in a future seeing the systems invest in a future seeing the systems invest in a future seeing the systems around us doing it with empathy around us doing it with empathy around us doing it with empathy that produces something we're proud we that produces something we're proud we that produces something we're proud we built.

built. built. We have to choose. We have to choose. We have to choose. And I think strategy is a philosophy of And I think strategy is a philosophy of And I think strategy is a philosophy of becoming. becoming. becoming. And I don't think it pays for it to be And I don't think it pays for it to be And I don't think it pays for it to be intuitive and unspoken. intuitive and unspoken. intuitive and unspoken. I think there's no way you would get in I think there's no way you would get in I think there's no way you would get in a car and say, "I'm driving up to a car and say, "I'm driving up to a car and say, "I'm driving up to Algonquin Park but have no map and no Algonquin Park but have no map and no Algonquin Park but have no map and no idea how to get there." You would ask. idea how to get there." You would ask. idea how to get there." You would ask. You would follow a map and you would go. You would follow a map and you would go. You would follow a map and you would go. And yet we're going to show up at work And yet we're going to show up at work And yet we're going to show up at work tomorrow with no strategy. tomorrow with no strategy. tomorrow with no strategy. And that's cuz we're afraid to talk And that's cuz we're afraid to talk And that's cuz we're afraid to talk about it. And so that's my mission. about it. And so that's my mission. about it. And so that's my mission. What what are some common pitfalls you What what are some common pitfalls you What what are some common pitfalls you saw leaders fall into when maybe they saw leaders fall into when maybe they saw leaders fall into when maybe they thought they had a strategy but not thought they had a strategy but not thought they had a strategy but not really? What do you see there? Well, really? What do you see there? Well, really? What do you see there? Well, most of the time it's when they act like most of the time it's when they act like most of the time it's when they act like managers instead of leaders. So Roger managers instead of leaders. So Roger managers instead of leaders. So Roger Martin has said companies love to have a Martin has said companies love to have a Martin has said companies love to have a strategic plan. I'm guessing churches strategic plan. I'm guessing churches strategic plan. I'm guessing churches do, too. Yeah. do, too. Yeah. do, too. Yeah. strategic plan is not strategy. strategic plan is not strategy. strategic plan is not strategy. It's a checklist that a manager can It's a checklist that a manager can It's a checklist that a manager can enforce with the understanding that if enforce with the understanding that if enforce with the understanding that if they do all the things on the list, they they do all the things on the list, they they do all the things on the list, they will succeed.

will succeed. will succeed. Right? So it's about control and being Right? So it's about control and being Right? So it's about control and being certain and being in charge. That's certain and being in charge. That's certain and being in charge. That's management. management. management. Strategy says the future is an Strategy says the future is an Strategy says the future is an unknown city, but we can see it from a unknown city, but we can see it from a unknown city, but we can see it from a distance. And we can make some distance. And we can make some distance. And we can make some assertions about what might happen. And assertions about what might happen. And assertions about what might happen. And they're not guarantees. That we don't they're not guarantees. That we don't they're not guarantees. That we don't make good decisions cuz we are promised make good decisions cuz we are promised make good decisions cuz we are promised that a good decision leads to the that a good decision leads to the that a good decision leads to the perfect outcome. We make good decisions perfect outcome. We make good decisions perfect outcome. We make good decisions cuz based on the information right here cuz based on the information right here cuz based on the information right here in front of us, in front of us, in front of us, our assertions lead us in this our assertions lead us in this our assertions lead us in this direction. direction. direction. So we have to be willing to say this So we have to be willing to say this So we have to be willing to say this might not work. might not work. might not work. So when Howard Schultz built Starbucks, So when Howard Schultz built Starbucks, So when Howard Schultz built Starbucks, he regularly had to say this might not he regularly had to say this might not he regularly had to say this might not work. He had a strategy. Right? That work. He had a strategy. Right? That work. He had a strategy. Right? That John Sculley when he ran Apple John Sculley when he ran Apple John Sculley when he ran Apple had tactics, but he didn't have a had tactics, but he didn't have a had tactics, but he didn't have a strategy. strategy. strategy. And And And you didn't have to like Steve Jobs, but you didn't have to like Steve Jobs, but you didn't have to like Steve Jobs, but you had to admire the fact that he very you had to admire the fact that he very you had to admire the fact that he very clearly had a strategy. clearly had a strategy. clearly had a strategy. If you had to describe your take on If you had to describe your take on If you had to describe your take on Steve Jobs cuz it's a very commonly Steve Jobs cuz it's a very commonly Steve Jobs cuz it's a very commonly known example, what would you say his known example, what would you say his known example, what would you say his strategy was and and you know, to the strategy was and and you know, to the strategy was and and you know, to the extent that it was successful. Their extent that it was successful. Their extent that it was successful. Their unstated strategy is unstated strategy is unstated strategy is make well-designed digital luxury goods make well-designed digital luxury goods make well-designed digital luxury goods that give people better taste about how that give people better taste about how that give people better taste about how they interact with technology.

they interact with technology. they interact with technology. So, they're the most successful luxury So, they're the most successful luxury So, they're the most successful luxury goods company in history. goods company in history. goods company in history. They have no good social network, no They have no good social network, no They have no good social network, no good internet tools. They didn't try to good internet tools. They didn't try to good internet tools. They didn't try to build any of those things. build any of those things. build any of those things. When the Apple is at its best, what When the Apple is at its best, what When the Apple is at its best, what they're doing is making something so they're doing is making something so they're doing is making something so that when people see it, they say, "This that when people see it, they say, "This that when people see it, they say, "This makes me look good in front of my makes me look good in front of my makes me look good in front of my friends, raises my status. friends, raises my status. friends, raises my status. It affiliates me with people I want to It affiliates me with people I want to It affiliates me with people I want to be like, and it ruins me be like, and it ruins me be like, and it ruins me for user experiences that aren't as for user experiences that aren't as for user experiences that aren't as beautifully crafted." beautifully crafted." beautifully crafted." Once you know that, Once you know that, Once you know that, running any division of Apple is pretty running any division of Apple is pretty running any division of Apple is pretty easy. easy. easy. That's very true. Very true. What one of That's very true. Very true. What one of That's very true. Very true. What one of the things I think people in the the things I think people in the the things I think people in the nonprofit sector might struggle with is nonprofit sector might struggle with is nonprofit sector might struggle with is the idea of status. And we might say, the idea of status. And we might say, the idea of status. And we might say, "Well, everybody's equal." "Well, everybody's equal." "Well, everybody's equal." But I mean, you come back to it again But I mean, you come back to it again But I mean, you come back to it again and again. Can you unpack we're all and again. Can you unpack we're all and again. Can you unpack we're all suckers for status, right? suckers for status, right? suckers for status, right? on. Come on. There Even if I go to a on. Come on. There Even if I go to a on. Come on. There Even if I go to a Buddhist sangha, Buddhist sangha, Buddhist sangha, there are some people in a special there are some people in a special there are some people in a special uniform. There are some people in the uniform. There are some people in the uniform. There are some people in the front of the room. There are some people front of the room. There are some people front of the room. There are some people who are on the drinks committee. There who are on the drinks committee. There who are on the drinks committee. There are Every institution of spiritual are Every institution of spiritual are Every institution of spiritual whatever that has lasted more than a whatever that has lasted more than a whatever that has lasted more than a week week week built the hierarchy.

built the hierarchy. built the hierarchy. Right? And the biggest, most successful Right? And the biggest, most successful Right? And the biggest, most successful one in history, one in history, one in history, they The Pope gets to talk to God. I they The Pope gets to talk to God. I they The Pope gets to talk to God. I mean, there's a real hierarchy here. You mean, there's a real hierarchy here. You mean, there's a real hierarchy here. You can take a vow of poverty can take a vow of poverty can take a vow of poverty if it will give you more status, cuz it if it will give you more status, cuz it if it will give you more status, cuz it does. does. does. Right? That The The monks who are in Right? That The The monks who are in Right? That The The monks who are in silent meditation have more status than silent meditation have more status than silent meditation have more status than the villagers. the villagers. the villagers. The people in Cambodia who walk around The people in Cambodia who walk around The people in Cambodia who walk around with their begging bowls, with their begging bowls, with their begging bowls, why are people giving them money? Cuz why are people giving them money? Cuz why are people giving them money? Cuz the the monks have more status than they the the monks have more status than they the the monks have more status than they do. do. do. Status isn't an Hermes bag. Status is Status isn't an Hermes bag. Status is Status isn't an Hermes bag. Status is simply who gets the lunch first. simply who gets the lunch first. simply who gets the lunch first. Status is who has a thing that I don't Status is who has a thing that I don't Status is who has a thing that I don't have that I might aspire to. have that I might aspire to. have that I might aspire to. And And And you do that every single time, you know, you do that every single time, you know, you do that every single time, you know, you put someone in charge of the you put someone in charge of the you put someone in charge of the sisterhood or the Who's Who gets to walk sisterhood or the Who's Who gets to walk sisterhood or the Who's Who gets to walk around with the plate or whatever it is. around with the plate or whatever it is. around with the plate or whatever it is. These are all status things you're These are all status things you're These are all status things you're offering people. offering people. offering people. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. How do you How do you How do you How does someone who interacts with you How does someone who interacts with you How does someone who interacts with you find status?

You know, in your work, in your work. You know, in your work, in your work. You know, somebody reads your book. You know, somebody reads your book. You know, somebody reads your book. Somebody Somebody reads your blog. Somebody Somebody reads your blog. Somebody Somebody reads your blog. Somebody, when you had a Kimbo, listens Somebody, when you had a Kimbo, listens Somebody, when you had a Kimbo, listens to the podcast. to the podcast. to the podcast. Okay, so how do I offer people Okay, so how do I offer people Okay, so how do I offer people scaffolding to help them achieve status? scaffolding to help them achieve status? scaffolding to help them achieve status? Yes. Okay. So, when I published Purple Yes. Okay. So, when I published Purple Yes. Okay. So, when I published Purple Cow and a Milk Carton, there were only Cow and a Milk Carton, there were only Cow and a Milk Carton, there were only 5,000 of them. 5,000 of them. 5,000 of them. The people who bought it and put it on The people who bought it and put it on The people who bought it and put it on their desk didn't do it cuz they were their desk didn't do it cuz they were their desk didn't do it cuz they were trying to support me. trying to support me. trying to support me. They did it because having it gave them They did it because having it gave them They did it because having it gave them a platform to tell the uninformed a platform to tell the uninformed a platform to tell the uninformed something that would make their something that would make their something that would make their organization work the way they wanted it organization work the way they wanted it organization work the way they wanted it to. It gave them status. to. It gave them status. to. It gave them status. That if I invent a term like idea virus That if I invent a term like idea virus That if I invent a term like idea virus or Purple Cow, and you use it, I'm not or Purple Cow, and you use it, I'm not or Purple Cow, and you use it, I'm not doing it so you'll buy the book. I just doing it so you'll buy the book. I just doing it so you'll buy the book. I just did you a service, which is I gave you did you a service, which is I gave you did you a service, which is I gave you insider lingo cuz you wanted to be an insider lingo cuz you wanted to be an insider lingo cuz you wanted to be an insider. insider. insider. That That That some people subscribe to my blog, some some people subscribe to my blog, some some people subscribe to my blog, some people get it when someone else forwards people get it when someone else forwards people get it when someone else forwards it to them. it to them. it to them. Which person is more of an insider, Which person is more of an insider, Which person is more of an insider, right? So, right? So, right? So, I'm constantly adjudicating status I'm constantly adjudicating status I'm constantly adjudicating status roles, roles, roles, because that's what people want. And because that's what people want. And because that's what people want. And then, then, then, I offer people affiliation, right?

I offer people affiliation, right? I offer people affiliation, right? People like us do things like this. People like us do things like this. People like us do things like this. So, when I So, when I So, when I started talking about email marketing, started talking about email marketing, started talking about email marketing, the Direct Marketing Association kicked the Direct Marketing Association kicked the Direct Marketing Association kicked me out of the association cuz I was me out of the association cuz I was me out of the association cuz I was anti-spam, anti-spam, anti-spam. I said, anti-spam, anti-spam, anti-spam. I said, anti-spam, anti-spam, anti-spam. I said, "You guys are making a mistake." They "You guys are making a mistake." They "You guys are making a mistake." They said, "We hear you. Go away." said, "We hear you. Go away." said, "We hear you. Go away." And so, I could coalesce a group of And so, I could coalesce a group of And so, I could coalesce a group of anti-spam people, anti-spam people, anti-spam people, and that affiliation among people who and that affiliation among people who and that affiliation among people who wanted respect from that was worth it wanted respect from that was worth it wanted respect from that was worth it cuz they could talk to each other. cuz they could talk to each other. cuz they could talk to each other. That led to Mailchimp, and that led to That led to Mailchimp, and that led to That led to Mailchimp, and that led to all these other things that I didn't all these other things that I didn't all these other things that I didn't touch. touch. touch. But I built the kernel of that cuz But I built the kernel of that cuz But I built the kernel of that cuz people wanted to be in the room with people wanted to be in the room with people wanted to be in the room with each other. each other. each other. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And even little things like this, like And even little things like this, like And even little things like this, like on your launch for your last book, I on your launch for your last book, I on your launch for your last book, I ordered some copies, and I got this ordered some copies, and I got this ordered some copies, and I got this beautiful mug for Song of Significance. beautiful mug for Song of Significance. beautiful mug for Song of Significance. Is that like a status thing that says Is that like a status thing that says Is that like a status thing that says culture insider? I just love the mug. culture insider? I just love the mug. culture insider? I just love the mug. I'm glad you love the mug. Um I'm glad you love the mug. Um I'm glad you love the mug. Um I am now I am now I am now significantly less disciplined and significantly less disciplined and significantly less disciplined and having more fun. having more fun. having more fun. So, So, So, the Askinosie chocolate bar that I spent the Askinosie chocolate bar that I spent the Askinosie chocolate bar that I spent an enormous amount of time on an enormous amount of time on an enormous amount of time on has no strategy to it. I just always has no strategy to it. I just always has no strategy to it. I just always wanted to make a chocolate bar.

When we get together, I'll have some of When we get together, I'll have some of that delicious chocolate. The border that delicious chocolate. The border that delicious chocolate. The border stands in the way. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. stands in the way. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. stands in the way. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Um so, if you think about status in the Um so, if you think about status in the Um so, if you think about status in the context of a nonprofit, context of a nonprofit, context of a nonprofit, what might be uh some strategies around what might be uh some strategies around what might be uh some strategies around status that would be helpful to a status that would be helpful to a status that would be helpful to a nonprofit that wants to have an impact, nonprofit that wants to have an impact, nonprofit that wants to have an impact, make a difference? make a difference? make a difference? Well, I need to ask Well, I need to ask Well, I need to ask uh uh uh what would success look like? Are you what would success look like? Are you what would success look like? Are you trying to raise more money? Are you trying to raise more money? Are you trying to raise more money? Are you trying to change more minds? What are trying to change more minds? What are trying to change more minds? What are you trying to to do? you trying to to do? you trying to to do? I think we're trying to impact lives. I think we're trying to impact lives. I think we're trying to impact lives. We're trying to change lives. So, in a We're trying to change lives. So, in a We're trying to change lives. So, in a spiritual context of the church, we want spiritual context of the church, we want spiritual context of the church, we want to see people, to see people, to see people, you know, have a realization that they you know, have a realization that they you know, have a realization that they are loved, come to a saving faith. Uh we are loved, come to a saving faith. Uh we are loved, come to a saving faith. Uh we want to see their lives transformed, to want to see their lives transformed, to want to see their lives transformed, to go from despair to hope. Uh that's sort go from despair to hope. Uh that's sort go from despair to hope. Uh that's sort of the overarching mission of a church. of the overarching mission of a church. of the overarching mission of a church. And then, ultimately, And then, ultimately, And then, ultimately, we want to see them engage in the we want to see them engage in the we want to see them engage in the mission. That this new life that came to mission. That this new life that came to mission. That this new life that came to you also goes to others. And that can be you also goes to others. And that can be you also goes to others. And that can be through serving, that can be through through serving, that can be through through serving, that can be through giving, that can be through giving, that can be through giving, that can be through um serving on the board. It can be in a um serving on the board. It can be in a um serving on the board. It can be in a variety of different ways. But that's variety of different ways. But that's variety of different ways. But that's That's where I would Okay. So, I read That's where I would Okay. So, I read That's where I would Okay. So, I read 2 days ago there were only two Shakers 2 days ago there were only two Shakers 2 days ago there were only two Shakers left on the planet.

left on the planet. left on the planet. Really? Did not know that. Really? Did not know that. Really? Did not know that. Not Quakers, but Shakers. Not Quakers, but Shakers. Not Quakers, but Shakers. Shakers, yeah. Well, that's because they Shakers, yeah. Well, that's because they Shakers, yeah. Well, that's because they relentlessly took away every single tool relentlessly took away every single tool relentlessly took away every single tool of status that was available. of status that was available. of status that was available. Mhm. No uh evangelizing, no children, no Mhm. No uh evangelizing, no children, no Mhm. No uh evangelizing, no children, no buildings. I mean, other than the buildings. I mean, other than the buildings. I mean, other than the furniture, there's just not a lot that furniture, there's just not a lot that furniture, there's just not a lot that they could use, right? And they could use, right? And they could use, right? And if I want if I'm a a Buddhist teacher, if I want if I'm a a Buddhist teacher, if I want if I'm a a Buddhist teacher, and I want people to get and I want people to get and I want people to get really in touch with their mindfulness, really in touch with their mindfulness, really in touch with their mindfulness, perhaps I believe that a 10-day silent perhaps I believe that a 10-day silent perhaps I believe that a 10-day silent retreat is a good way to leap forward retreat is a good way to leap forward retreat is a good way to leap forward compared to showing up for an hour, compared to showing up for an hour, compared to showing up for an hour, right? How can I help you develop a right? How can I help you develop a right? How can I help you develop a a better practice? a better practice? a better practice? Well, so what I do is for the larger Well, so what I do is for the larger Well, so what I do is for the larger group, group, group, I talk about the 10-day retreat, and I I talk about the 10-day retreat, and I I talk about the 10-day retreat, and I talk about how the people who've been talk about how the people who've been talk about how the people who've been through it have more status. They have through it have more status. They have through it have more status. They have more status because I look at them more status because I look at them more status because I look at them differently. They have more status differently. They have more status differently. They have more status because they're more comfortable in the because they're more comfortable in the because they're more comfortable in the building. They have more status in lots building. They have more status in lots building. They have more status in lots of way So, now other people who are of way So, now other people who are of way So, now other people who are looking for affiliation looking for affiliation looking for affiliation are more inclined to go on the 10-day are more inclined to go on the 10-day are more inclined to go on the 10-day retreat because it's scaffolding the retreat because it's scaffolding the retreat because it's scaffolding the path to help to get to where they want path to help to get to where they want path to help to get to where they want to go.

to go. to go. That if, you know, built into the word That if, you know, built into the word That if, you know, built into the word evangelical is the idea that you're evangelical is the idea that you're evangelical is the idea that you're going to tell somebody else. Okay. What going to tell somebody else. Okay. What going to tell somebody else. Okay. What are you going to tell somebody else? Why are you going to tell somebody else? Why are you going to tell somebody else? Why are you going to tell somebody else? are you going to tell somebody else? are you going to tell somebody else? Right? So, there's some very complicated Right? So, there's some very complicated Right? So, there's some very complicated stuff that goes on with Mormons and stuff that goes on with Mormons and stuff that goes on with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses about why you need Jehovah's Witnesses about why you need Jehovah's Witnesses about why you need to tell somebody else. We're going to to tell somebody else. We're going to to tell somebody else. We're going to leave that aside for a minute. leave that aside for a minute. leave that aside for a minute. And instead say, And instead say, And instead say, in the community where we live when in the community where we live when in the community where we live when we're not in the spiritual institution, we're not in the spiritual institution, we're not in the spiritual institution, my status goes up when I talk about my status goes up when I talk about my status goes up when I talk about {quote} my faith. {quote} my faith. {quote} my faith. I am partly talking about {quote} my I am partly talking about {quote} my I am partly talking about {quote} my faith cuz deep down I believe it's faith cuz deep down I believe it's faith cuz deep down I believe it's generous that I'm going to offer you generous that I'm going to offer you generous that I'm going to offer you whatever I think of as salvation. whatever I think of as salvation. whatever I think of as salvation. But another part of it is But another part of it is But another part of it is it makes it easier for me to fit in in it makes it easier for me to fit in in it makes it easier for me to fit in in this town this town this town if other people see me as somebody who if other people see me as somebody who if other people see me as somebody who has that going on. Right. And so, if you has that going on. Right. And so, if you has that going on. Right. And so, if you show up in another country, in another show up in another country, in another show up in another country, in another culture, it's much harder for you to be culture, it's much harder for you to be culture, it's much harder for you to be evangelical in your faith.

evangelical in your faith. evangelical in your faith. Because for you to start speaking up Because for you to start speaking up Because for you to start speaking up about being a Zoroastrian, about being a Zoroastrian, about being a Zoroastrian, your your your your status didn't go up your your your your status didn't go up your your your your status didn't go up at the dinner party when you did that. at the dinner party when you did that. at the dinner party when you did that. Right? So, again, it's all about people Right? So, again, it's all about people Right? So, again, it's all about people like us do things like this. like us do things like this. like us do things like this. The creation of culture, the The creation of culture, the The creation of culture, the adjudication. adjudication. adjudication. And so, I got the thing about status And so, I got the thing about status And so, I got the thing about status from Keith Johnstone. He died last year. from Keith Johnstone. He died last year. from Keith Johnstone. He died last year. 1963, 1963, 1963, the book is called Impro. I never met the book is called Impro. I never met the book is called Impro. I never met Keith. Keith. Keith. And Impro is about theater. And Impro is about theater. And Impro is about theater. And what he says is And what he says is And what he says is any good movie or play, any good movie or play, any good movie or play, any any any movie or play, and I would argue even movie or play, and I would argue even movie or play, and I would argue even books that you can find in a hotel room, books that you can find in a hotel room, books that you can find in a hotel room, are about the exchange of status roles. are about the exchange of status roles. are about the exchange of status roles. That's it. Every scene. Who's moving up That's it. Every scene. Who's moving up That's it. Every scene. Who's moving up and who's moving down? and who's moving down? and who's moving down? That when the when the undertaker goes That when the when the undertaker goes That when the when the undertaker goes to see the Godfather in the first scene, to see the Godfather in the first scene, to see the Godfather in the first scene, the undertaker is low status, Godfather the undertaker is low status, Godfather the undertaker is low status, Godfather is high status. He's offering an is high status. He's offering an is high status. He's offering an exchange, right? That when Princess Leia exchange, right? That when Princess Leia exchange, right? That when Princess Leia is trying to adjudicate something with is trying to adjudicate something with is trying to adjudicate something with Han Solo, it's status roles, right?

Han Solo, it's status roles, right? Han Solo, it's status roles, right? There's sexual tension, but there's also There's sexual tension, but there's also There's sexual tension, but there's also status roles. status roles. status roles. So, So, So, we need to realize that we can walk away we need to realize that we can walk away we need to realize that we can walk away from that and have no impact, or we can from that and have no impact, or we can from that and have no impact, or we can embrace that and use it as a force for embrace that and use it as a force for embrace that and use it as a force for good. good. good. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, and I I like that redemption of Yeah, and I I like that redemption of Yeah, and I I like that redemption of status roles, you know, a youth pastor I status roles, you know, a youth pastor I status roles, you know, a youth pastor I hired once, now our lead pastor, said hired once, now our lead pastor, said hired once, now our lead pastor, said high school is all about status. That's high school is all about status. That's high school is all about status. That's all it is. Right? And life is, to a all it is. Right? And life is, to a all it is. Right? And life is, to a certain extent. The way we dress, the certain extent. The way we dress, the certain extent. The way we dress, the way we do this podcast, it's all it is way we do this podcast, it's all it is way we do this podcast, it's all it is when you really look at it. Now, you you when you really look at it. Now, you you when you really look at it. Now, you you do mention people like us do things like do mention people like us do things like do mention people like us do things like this, which is your definition I think this, which is your definition I think this, which is your definition I think of culture, comes up a lot in your work of culture, comes up a lot in your work of culture, comes up a lot in your work on strategy. How do culture and strategy on strategy. How do culture and strategy on strategy. How do culture and strategy interrelate? Systems Systems invented culture invented culture invented culture to maintain the status quo. So, the wedding industrial complex So, the wedding industrial complex invented the idea that you should spend invented the idea that you should spend invented the idea that you should spend enough for your wedding enough for your wedding enough for your wedding to cost as much as your best friend, but to cost as much as your best friend, but to cost as much as your best friend, but a little more.

a little more. a little more. That is the culture of weddings. Right? That is the culture of weddings. Right? That is the culture of weddings. Right? It was invented by the wedding It was invented by the wedding It was invented by the wedding industrial complex so that no one would industrial complex so that no one would industrial complex so that no one would show up and just have six flowers and a show up and just have six flowers and a show up and just have six flowers and a Cracker Jack ring and be done with it. Cracker Jack ring and be done with it. Cracker Jack ring and be done with it. And strategy is how do I change the And strategy is how do I change the And strategy is how do I change the culture? culture? culture? Strategy is how do I use the dominant Strategy is how do I use the dominant Strategy is how do I use the dominant currents in the culture to make things currents in the culture to make things currents in the culture to make things better by causing a change to happen. better by causing a change to happen. better by causing a change to happen. So, I find people who want a thing So, I find people who want a thing So, I find people who want a thing and I help them want get that thing by and I help them want get that thing by and I help them want get that thing by doing something else. doing something else. doing something else. So, for example, So, for example, So, for example, most of the companies in Ontario do not most of the companies in Ontario do not most of the companies in Ontario do not actually want the world to end in a actually want the world to end in a actually want the world to end in a giant melting cloud of gray dust. giant melting cloud of gray dust. giant melting cloud of gray dust. They just want to buy cheap electricity They just want to buy cheap electricity They just want to buy cheap electricity so that they can make a profit. so that they can make a profit. so that they can make a profit. That's what they're actually paying That's what they're actually paying That's what they're actually paying attention to. attention to. attention to. So, if I go to them and say, "Here is So, if I go to them and say, "Here is So, if I go to them and say, "Here is solar electricity and it's a penny solar electricity and it's a penny solar electricity and it's a penny less." less." less." They'll buy it.

They'll buy it. They'll buy it. Because they haven't had to change what Because they haven't had to change what Because they haven't had to change what they want. they want. they want. I've just given them a way to change I've just given them a way to change I've just given them a way to change what they get. what they get. what they get. And so, strategy is built into that. And so, strategy is built into that. And so, strategy is built into that. That I will begin by talking to people That I will begin by talking to people That I will begin by talking to people who can't sleep at night cuz they feel who can't sleep at night cuz they feel who can't sleep at night cuz they feel culpable culpable culpable uh on all the damage we're doing. So, uh on all the damage we're doing. So, uh on all the damage we're doing. So, those people will buy solar when it those people will buy solar when it those people will buy solar when it costs more. costs more. costs more. But, I better drive down the cost of But, I better drive down the cost of But, I better drive down the cost of solar or create the conditions for coal solar or create the conditions for coal solar or create the conditions for coal to cost more to cost more to cost more so that people who don't care, but who so that people who don't care, but who so that people who don't care, but who care about something else, will switch. care about something else, will switch. care about something else, will switch. That's strategy. That's strategy. That's strategy. And that's how that impacts culture. Um And that's how that impacts culture. Um And that's how that impacts culture. Um you know, you talk a lot about systems. you know, you talk a lot about systems. you know, you talk a lot about systems. One of my mentors has said, "If it's a One of my mentors has said, "If it's a One of my mentors has said, "If it's a recurrent thing, it's a systems thing." recurrent thing, it's a systems thing." recurrent thing, it's a systems thing." And your current system is, you know, And your current system is, you know, And your current system is, you know, perfectly calculated to produce the perfectly calculated to produce the perfectly calculated to produce the results you're getting now. results you're getting now. results you're getting now. Um systems, can you talk a little bit Um systems, can you talk a little bit Um systems, can you talk a little bit about cuz it comes up a lot in the book, about cuz it comes up a lot in the book, about cuz it comes up a lot in the book, little bit about systems and um maybe little bit about systems and um maybe little bit about systems and um maybe even the unseen systems that we're in. I even the unseen systems that we're in. I even the unseen systems that we're in. I think we've done a good job of servicing think we've done a good job of servicing think we've done a good job of servicing one or two things like status. It's like one or two things like status. It's like one or two things like status. It's like when you look for when you know what it when you look for when you know what it when you look for when you know what it is, it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's is, it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's is, it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. I ordered everywhere. It's everywhere. I ordered everywhere. It's everywhere. I ordered organic, not regular. I'm not doing organic, not regular. I'm not doing organic, not regular. I'm not doing this, I'm doing this instead." Right?

this, I'm doing this instead." Right? this, I'm doing this instead." Right? So, tell me a little bit about um So, tell me a little bit about um So, tell me a little bit about um systems and how that works. systems and how that works. systems and how that works. They're almost all invisible. Yeah. And They're almost all invisible. Yeah. And They're almost all invisible. Yeah. And they're incredibly resilient. they're incredibly resilient. they're incredibly resilient. Any system that's sticking around is Any system that's sticking around is Any system that's sticking around is sticking around cuz it's good at sticking around cuz it's good at sticking around cuz it's good at sticking around. sticking around. sticking around. So, the wedding industrial complex is a So, the wedding industrial complex is a So, the wedding industrial complex is a system. system. system. The idea that um we measure this false The idea that um we measure this false The idea that um we measure this false proxy is part of a system of status. proxy is part of a system of status. proxy is part of a system of status. That um the phone system is a system and That um the phone system is a system and That um the phone system is a system and if you came up with a better way to if you came up with a better way to if you came up with a better way to connect people via audio, you would have connect people via audio, you would have connect people via audio, you would have a very hard time making it succeed. a very hard time making it succeed. a very hard time making it succeed. That you and I are talking on a video That you and I are talking on a video That you and I are talking on a video call. It took years and years and years call. It took years and years and years call. It took years and years and years and years for people to stop doing one and years for people to stop doing one and years for people to stop doing one thing to do another cuz so many things thing to do another cuz so many things thing to do another cuz so many things built into our culture supported a built into our culture supported a built into our culture supported a certain kind of interaction. Shaking certain kind of interaction. Shaking certain kind of interaction. Shaking hands is part of a social system and hands is part of a social system and hands is part of a social system and even when it was literally, actually even when it was literally, actually even when it was literally, actually killing people, killing people, killing people, we couldn't stop doing it.

we couldn't stop doing it. we couldn't stop doing it. Because it was just too awkward to say, Because it was just too awkward to say, Because it was just too awkward to say, "I'm not going to shake your hand cuz I "I'm not going to shake your hand cuz I "I'm not going to shake your hand cuz I don't trust you cuz I think you might don't trust you cuz I think you might don't trust you cuz I think you might kill me." We just said, "I'll take the kill me." We just said, "I'll take the kill me." We just said, "I'll take the risk and shake someone's hand." risk and shake someone's hand." risk and shake someone's hand." So, So, So, what we're looking for Oh, and a big a what we're looking for Oh, and a big a what we're looking for Oh, and a big a huge one is huge one is huge one is how we've indoctrinated people about how we've indoctrinated people about how we've indoctrinated people about their work. their work. their work. So, bosses So, bosses So, bosses have the mindset of how much can I get have the mindset of how much can I get have the mindset of how much can I get for how little can I pay. for how little can I pay. for how little can I pay. And so, employees have responded by And so, employees have responded by And so, employees have responded by saying, "How little can I do and how saying, "How little can I do and how saying, "How little can I do and how much can I get paid?" Cuz if they don't, much can I get paid?" Cuz if they don't, much can I get paid?" Cuz if they don't, they're going to get completely ripped they're going to get completely ripped they're going to get completely ripped off. So, when you show up with a new way off. So, when you show up with a new way off. So, when you show up with a new way of running something like uh our friend of running something like uh our friend of running something like uh our friend Ari Weinzweig does at Zingerman's, Ari Weinzweig does at Zingerman's, Ari Weinzweig does at Zingerman's, people don't trust you. people don't trust you. people don't trust you. Because you're doing something that Because you're doing something that Because you're doing something that doesn't match the system that they doesn't match the system that they doesn't match the system that they expect. They think there's some sort of expect. They think there's some sort of expect. They think there's some sort of catch. catch. catch. Um and um Um and um Um and um you know, the funeral industrial complex you know, the funeral industrial complex you know, the funeral industrial complex is a system. is a system. is a system. Try to change that in a hurry. You will Try to change that in a hurry. You will Try to change that in a hurry. You will not succeed.

not succeed. not succeed. We need to see these things and not give We need to see these things and not give We need to see these things and not give up, up, up, but try to understand why are they the but try to understand why are they the but try to understand why are they the way they are way they are way they are and how do we use and how do we use and how do we use what they've got going for them to alter what they've got going for them to alter what they've got going for them to alter how they do things. how they do things. how they do things. I want to read a couple of quotes to you I want to read a couple of quotes to you I want to read a couple of quotes to you that I just really leaped off the page that I just really leaped off the page that I just really leaped off the page for me. Um home improvement TV shows led for me. Um home improvement TV shows led for me. Um home improvement TV shows led to the popularity of the McMansion, to the popularity of the McMansion, to the popularity of the McMansion, birth control transformed the workforce birth control transformed the workforce birth control transformed the workforce and led to the rise of convenience and led to the rise of convenience and led to the rise of convenience foods. foods. foods. Never made that connection. Birth Never made that connection. Birth Never made that connection. Birth control pill, women at work, convenience control pill, women at work, convenience control pill, women at work, convenience foods. foods. foods. Yeah, I mean, that's a single sentence, Yeah, I mean, that's a single sentence, Yeah, I mean, that's a single sentence, but it's like of course. The smartphone but it's like of course. The smartphone but it's like of course. The smartphone continued with the quote, "Surfaced continued with the quote, "Surfaced continued with the quote, "Surfaced information about travelers and drivers, information about travelers and drivers, information about travelers and drivers, enabling Uber to transform the taxi enabling Uber to transform the taxi enabling Uber to transform the taxi industry." industry." industry." Just really, really good connections Just really, really good connections Just really, really good connections there. I'm curious there. I'm curious there. I'm curious are change agents. Change agents are change agents. Change agents are change agents. Change agents are unseen are unseen are unseen until they're seen. until they're seen. until they're seen. And then we're like, "Well, of course."

And then we're like, "Well, of course." And then we're like, "Well, of course." Right? And so, Right? And so, Right? And so, the opportunity is to say So, for the opportunity is to say So, for the opportunity is to say So, for example, example, example, AI is going to make it so that the cost AI is going to make it so that the cost AI is going to make it so that the cost of having a receptionist answer the of having a receptionist answer the of having a receptionist answer the phone will be zero phone will be zero phone will be zero cuz it's not a real person. cuz it's not a real person. cuz it's not a real person. Okay, we get that. But, what will that Okay, we get that. But, what will that Okay, we get that. But, what will that lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to, which will lead to? lead to, which will lead to? lead to, which will lead to? The change agent ripples and we have to The change agent ripples and we have to The change agent ripples and we have to be alert to that because be alert to that because be alert to that because when it starts to happen, we don't when it starts to happen, we don't when it starts to happen, we don't realize it. realize it. realize it. I was going to say, "What other And we I was going to say, "What other And we I was going to say, "What other And we can talk about AI if you want. What can talk about AI if you want. What can talk about AI if you want. What other technology or change agents are other technology or change agents are other technology or change agents are going to upend uh going to upend uh going to upend uh things that most of us aren't even things that most of us aren't even things that most of us aren't even paying attention to or aware of?" paying attention to or aware of?" paying attention to or aware of?" Yeah, I think the two biggest ones are Yeah, I think the two biggest ones are Yeah, I think the two biggest ones are the climate and AI. the climate and AI. the climate and AI. There's probably going to be There's probably going to be There's probably going to be uh uh uh a significant generational upheaval that a significant generational upheaval that a significant generational upheaval that I don't know how to predict I don't know how to predict I don't know how to predict that's going to be the third one. that's going to be the third one. that's going to be the third one. When people like me die off and people When people like me die off and people When people like me die off and people who are 20 who are 20 who are 20 take over because we skipped the last take over because we skipped the last take over because we skipped the last two.

two. two. That there's been sort of a a gemini of That there's been sort of a a gemini of That there's been sort of a a gemini of what is it to be empowered from 1972 what is it to be empowered from 1972 what is it to be empowered from 1972 till now. Same music, same goals, same till now. Same music, same goals, same till now. Same music, same goals, same cultural approach. cultural approach. cultural approach. That's a really long time for it to have That's a really long time for it to have That's a really long time for it to have stuck around. stuck around. stuck around. And it's going to be replaced. Yeah, And it's going to be replaced. Yeah, And it's going to be replaced. Yeah, that's really interesting, you know, that's really interesting, you know, that's really interesting, you know, because it is the songs of my childhood because it is the songs of my childhood because it is the songs of my childhood that are still playing in grocery that are still playing in grocery that are still playing in grocery stores, etc., etc. If you listen to stores, etc., etc. If you listen to stores, etc., etc. If you listen to radio, it's sort of my era from when I radio, it's sort of my era from when I radio, it's sort of my era from when I was a teenager to when I was in my was a teenager to when I was in my was a teenager to when I was in my mid-30s, early 40s mid-30s, early 40s mid-30s, early 40s that dominates the culture. And I mean, that dominates the culture. And I mean, that dominates the culture. And I mean, you look at the Billboard Hot 100 and you look at the Billboard Hot 100 and you look at the Billboard Hot 100 and don't recognize most of the top 10 these don't recognize most of the top 10 these don't recognize most of the top 10 these days unless Taylor Swift's on or days unless Taylor Swift's on or days unless Taylor Swift's on or something like that. But, yeah, you're something like that. But, yeah, you're something like that. But, yeah, you're right. We have kind of skipped a right. We have kind of skipped a right. We have kind of skipped a generation. The boomers have held court generation. The boomers have held court generation. The boomers have held court Yep. for their entire lives. Yep. And Yep. for their entire lives. Yep. And Yep. for their entire lives. Yep. And you think as boomers start to pass on, you think as boomers start to pass on, you think as boomers start to pass on, it's going to all flip to Gen Z and Gen it's going to all flip to Gen Z and Gen it's going to all flip to Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Alpha. Alpha. Yeah, and they uh have something else Yeah, and they uh have something else Yeah, and they uh have something else in mind. They're not sure what it is in mind. They're not sure what it is in mind. They're not sure what it is yet. Yeah. Yeah, it is fundamentally yet. Yeah. Yeah, it is fundamentally yet. Yeah. Yeah, it is fundamentally different. Like, Gen X is a take off on different. Like, Gen X is a take off on different. Like, Gen X is a take off on boomers, you know. Boomers, but boomers, you know. Boomers, but boomers, you know. Boomers, but different. Millennials take off on Gen different. Millennials take off on Gen different. Millennials take off on Gen X, but different. Gen Z seems different.

X, but different. Gen Z seems different. X, but different. Gen Z seems different. Yeah, and Yeah, and Yeah, and again, I don't want to be a broken again, I don't want to be a broken again, I don't want to be a broken record, but I need to say these things record, but I need to say these things record, but I need to say these things out loud cuz cuz I can. out loud cuz cuz I can. out loud cuz cuz I can. 10 years from now, there's going to be 10 years from now, there's going to be 10 years from now, there's going to be 100 million climate refugees. Yeah. 100 million climate refugees. Yeah. 100 million climate refugees. Yeah. They're going to be in the newspaper They're going to be in the newspaper They're going to be in the newspaper every single day. every single day. every single day. They're going to be showing up on boats. They're going to be showing up on boats. They're going to be showing up on boats. They're going to be the only thing They're going to be the only thing They're going to be the only thing people talk about. Yeah. people talk about. Yeah. people talk about. Yeah. How can that not change so many things How can that not change so many things How can that not change so many things in our world? in our world? in our world? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right now we're hearing about Yeah, right now we're hearing about Yeah, right now we're hearing about really hot summers in Europe and Africa really hot summers in Europe and Africa really hot summers in Europe and Africa and you know, read a piece on the island and you know, read a piece on the island and you know, read a piece on the island of Sicily. of Sicily. of Sicily. And just I was there and it was hot five And just I was there and it was hot five And just I was there and it was hot five years ago, but now they can't even grow years ago, but now they can't even grow years ago, but now they can't even grow anything anymore. anything anymore. anything anymore. And and a decade from now, like And and a decade from now, like And and a decade from now, like literally in the 2030s, we're going to literally in the 2030s, we're going to literally in the 2030s, we're going to have 100 million people have 100 million people have 100 million people looking to relocate. Well, they'll have looking to relocate. Well, they'll have looking to relocate. Well, they'll have no choice. Their their land will be no choice. Their their land will be no choice. Their their land will be gone. Yeah. gone. Yeah. gone. Yeah. Bangladesh Bangladesh alone has 10 Bangladesh Bangladesh alone has 10 Bangladesh Bangladesh alone has 10 million people who live within 10 feet million people who live within 10 feet million people who live within 10 feet of sea level.

of sea level. of sea level. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. What about AI? Um you actually wrote the What about AI? Um you actually wrote the What about AI? Um you actually wrote the book. This is your book, but you did it book. This is your book, but you did it book. This is your book, but you did it in dialogue with Claude? in dialogue with Claude? in dialogue with Claude? Uh which is interesting or Claude, how Uh which is interesting or Claude, how Uh which is interesting or Claude, how do you pronounce it? I I say Claude. do you pronounce it? I I say Claude. do you pronounce it? I I say Claude. It's very important that I for my ego to It's very important that I for my ego to It's very important that I for my ego to say, "I wrote every word in this book." say, "I wrote every word in this book." say, "I wrote every word in this book." Yes, he did. Yeah. Yes, he did. Yeah. Yes, he did. Yeah. What I use Claude to do What I use Claude to do What I use Claude to do is I will give it is I will give it is I will give it the thing it's best at in my experience the thing it's best at in my experience the thing it's best at in my experience is give it a list of six things is give it a list of six things is give it a list of six things and ask for six more. and ask for six more. and ask for six more. And And And in terms of writing sermons, what a in terms of writing sermons, what a in terms of writing sermons, what a gift, right? So, gift, right? So, gift, right? So, it's it's of the six it will give you, it's it's of the six it will give you, it's it's of the six it will give you, at least three are home runs. at least three are home runs. at least three are home runs. And then I will say, "Oh, thanks for And then I will say, "Oh, thanks for And then I will say, "Oh, thanks for reminding me." And then I'll write reminding me." And then I'll write reminding me." And then I'll write something about that. Mhm. something about that. Mhm. something about that. Mhm. Um the other thing I use it for is when Um the other thing I use it for is when Um the other thing I use it for is when someone else sends me writing someone else sends me writing someone else sends me writing that's dense or too long or whatever. that's dense or too long or whatever. that's dense or too long or whatever. I'll just give the document to Claude I'll just give the document to Claude I'll just give the document to Claude and say, "Please summarize this for me." and say, "Please summarize this for me." and say, "Please summarize this for me." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then sometimes I'll say, "Please And then sometimes I'll say, "Please And then sometimes I'll say, "Please summarize this for me in the style of summarize this for me in the style of summarize this for me in the style of Seth Godin."

Seth Godin." Seth Godin." And it does, which is really cool. And it does, which is really cool. And it does, which is really cool. Uh Uh Uh but I don't think that's the big shift but I don't think that's the big shift but I don't think that's the big shift that AI leads to. That's just for people that AI leads to. That's just for people that AI leads to. That's just for people who do what I do for a living. who do what I do for a living. who do what I do for a living. I I I is when you have something that is is when you have something that is is when you have something that is always on, always on, always on, persistent, with a perfect memory, that persistent, with a perfect memory, that persistent, with a perfect memory, that knows everyone and everything, knows everyone and everything, knows everyone and everything, it opens these frontiers that we're not it opens these frontiers that we're not it opens these frontiers that we're not even imagining. even imagining. even imagining. And you know, just to pick a tiny And you know, just to pick a tiny And you know, just to pick a tiny trivial example, trivial example, trivial example, you're about to throw out that canoe in you're about to throw out that canoe in you're about to throw out that canoe in your backyard and get a cedar strip uh your backyard and get a cedar strip uh your backyard and get a cedar strip uh chestnut instead, which you should do chestnut instead, which you should do chestnut instead, which you should do anyway. anyway. anyway. And as you go to throw it out, it says, And as you go to throw it out, it says, And as you go to throw it out, it says, "Wait Carrie, there's a guy seven blocks "Wait Carrie, there's a guy seven blocks "Wait Carrie, there's a guy seven blocks from here who wants that." from here who wants that." from here who wants that." Mhm. Yeah, you're right. All-knowing, Yeah, you're right. All-knowing, all-seeing. all-seeing. all-seeing. Kind of Big Brother. Kind of Big Brother. Kind of Big Brother. It's interesting, you know. Do you think It's interesting, you know. Do you think It's interesting, you know. Do you think because there's a certain level of because there's a certain level of because there's a certain level of technology, like, you know, you're technology, like, you know, you're technology, like, you know, you're tech-forward, I'm tech-forward, tech-forward, I'm tech-forward, tech-forward, I'm tech-forward, relatively for my age and stage, but relatively for my age and stage, but relatively for my age and stage, but like we got a new washer and dryer a like we got a new washer and dryer a like we got a new washer and dryer a couple years ago. And you know, it's got couple years ago. And you know, it's got couple years ago. And you know, it's got a QR code and it has an app setting and a QR code and it has an app setting and a QR code and it has an app setting and the same with my fridge, Seth. And I'm the same with my fridge, Seth. And I'm the same with my fridge, Seth. And I'm like, you know what? I just want my like, you know what? I just want my like, you know what? I just want my fridge to plug in.

fridge to plug in. fridge to plug in. I don't need to know when I need to I don't need to know when I need to I don't need to know when I need to reorder sparkling water. Like I I just reorder sparkling water. Like I I just reorder sparkling water. Like I I just don't need to know that. don't need to know that. don't need to know that. Yeah, I not I don't think that's the Yeah, I not I don't think that's the Yeah, I not I don't think that's the case. case. case. I think you are the victim of lazy, bad I think you are the victim of lazy, bad I think you are the victim of lazy, bad user experience design. Mhm. Okay. user experience design. Mhm. Okay. user experience design. Mhm. Okay. they did it right, they did it right, they did it right, you wouldn't feel that way. you wouldn't feel that way. you wouldn't feel that way. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That That That every time I walk into a real-life every time I walk into a real-life every time I walk into a real-life bookstore, I get impatient cuz I can't bookstore, I get impatient cuz I can't bookstore, I get impatient cuz I can't understand why they don't reorganize the understand why they don't reorganize the understand why they don't reorganize the store in the order I like it and only store in the order I like it and only store in the order I like it and only show me books I don't already own. show me books I don't already own. show me books I don't already own. Cuz Cuz Cuz that's what the bookstore I use does, that's what the bookstore I use does, that's what the bookstore I use does, right? Mhm. right? Mhm. right? Mhm. So, So, So, the refrigerator the refrigerator the refrigerator I've written a bunch and I actually I've written a bunch and I actually I've written a bunch and I actually wrote three pages in the book about wrote three pages in the book about wrote three pages in the book about refrigerators and took it out. Um refrigerators and took it out. Um refrigerators and took it out. Um your refrigerator also should know what your refrigerator also should know what your refrigerator also should know what everyone in your neighborhood has in everyone in your neighborhood has in everyone in your neighborhood has in their refrigerator. their refrigerator. their refrigerator. And it should know what the farmers in And it should know what the farmers in And it should know what the farmers in Aurelia have extra of.

Aurelia have extra of. Aurelia have extra of. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And it should connect you. And it should connect you. And it should connect you. And it's not, "Oh, please go back and And it's not, "Oh, please go back and And it's not, "Oh, please go back and order more seltzer." It's order more seltzer." It's order more seltzer." It's "Hey Carrie, I found 62 people who "Hey Carrie, I found 62 people who "Hey Carrie, I found 62 people who really love organic strawberries. I really love organic strawberries. I really love organic strawberries. I hooked you up with the local organic hooked you up with the local organic hooked you up with the local organic strawberry guy. So, you don't have to strawberry guy. So, you don't have to strawberry guy. So, you don't have to buy California strawberries anymore. I buy California strawberries anymore. I buy California strawberries anymore. I have solved your supply problem, his have solved your supply problem, his have solved your supply problem, his demand problem, and your life just got demand problem, and your life just got demand problem, and your life just got way better." Okay, now that would be way better." Okay, now that would be way better." Okay, now that would be interesting. interesting. interesting. That would be interesting. That would be interesting. That would be interesting. And the laundry machine, you can do a And the laundry machine, you can do a And the laundry machine, you can do a custom downloadable cycle if you want. custom downloadable cycle if you want. custom downloadable cycle if you want. It has this little like app cycle thing. It has this little like app cycle thing. It has this little like app cycle thing. I'm like, "You've got 17 cycles. I don't I'm like, "You've got 17 cycles. I don't I'm like, "You've got 17 cycles. I don't need an 18th. I can't figure that out." need an 18th. I can't figure that out." need an 18th. I can't figure that out." people, I'm not going to mention any people, I'm not going to mention any people, I'm not going to mention any names, who are obsessed with dishwashers names, who are obsessed with dishwashers names, who are obsessed with dishwashers and washing machines. Okay. and washing machines. Okay. and washing machines. Okay. And this this is their hobby. So, let And this this is their hobby. So, let And this this is their hobby. So, let them have it. them have it. them have it. Okay, let them let them go for it. We're Okay, let them let them go for it. We're Okay, let them let them go for it. We're just trying to figure that out. Uh any just trying to figure that out. Uh any just trying to figure that out. Uh any other advice you would have to cuz we other advice you would have to cuz we other advice you would have to cuz we have a lot of writers, creative speakers have a lot of writers, creative speakers have a lot of writers, creative speakers listening listening listening about really helpful uses of AI. I find about really helpful uses of AI. I find about really helpful uses of AI. I find it amazing at titling, amazing at it amazing at titling, amazing at it amazing at titling, amazing at finishing lists. It is good at critique.

finishing lists. It is good at critique. finishing lists. It is good at critique. Uh sometimes to the point where it Uh sometimes to the point where it Uh sometimes to the point where it hurts. I'm like, "I thought I did a good hurts. I'm like, "I thought I did a good hurts. I'm like, "I thought I did a good job." job." job." Um what else what else would you Um what else what else would you Um what else what else would you recommend using AI as it sits right now recommend using AI as it sits right now recommend using AI as it sits right now for? This is you can do a transition for the next you can do a transition for the next year year year where AI ghostwrites and helps you a where AI ghostwrites and helps you a where AI ghostwrites and helps you a bit. bit. bit. But after that, But after that, But after that, it's a trap. it's a trap. it's a trap. If you can't begin writing in a way that If you can't begin writing in a way that If you can't begin writing in a way that you and only you could write, you and only you could write, you and only you could write, that an AI that an AI that an AI couldn't do, couldn't do, couldn't do, then we don't need you anymore. then we don't need you anymore. then we don't need you anymore. Yeah. So, if you don't love it, stop Yeah. So, if you don't love it, stop Yeah. So, if you don't love it, stop writing and just let Claude write all writing and just let Claude write all writing and just let Claude write all your sermons for you. Fine. your sermons for you. Fine. your sermons for you. Fine. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. It's going to be mediocre, all mixed It's going to be mediocre, all mixed It's going to be mediocre, all mixed together, gray goo. Fine. There's together, gray goo. Fine. There's together, gray goo. Fine. There's already a lot of gray goo in the world. already a lot of gray goo in the world. already a lot of gray goo in the world. But But But the opportunity is to say, "I refuse the opportunity is to say, "I refuse the opportunity is to say, "I refuse to write to write to write 1% different than an AI. 1% different than an AI. 1% different than an AI. I'm going to write stuff I'm going to write stuff I'm going to write stuff that's stunning or scary or too long or that's stunning or scary or too long or that's stunning or scary or too long or too brief or something that doesn't get too brief or something that doesn't get too brief or something that doesn't get through its filters, through its filters, through its filters, and people will know it came from me."

and people will know it came from me." and people will know it came from me." And I'll give you the simple example is And I'll give you the simple example is And I'll give you the simple example is this. this. this. There are thousands and thousands and There are thousands and thousands and There are thousands and thousands and thousands of stand-up comics in North thousands of stand-up comics in North thousands of stand-up comics in North America. Mhm. America. Mhm. America. Mhm. And you've only heard of 20 of them. And you've only heard of 20 of them. And you've only heard of 20 of them. And the 20 you've heard of And the 20 you've heard of And the 20 you've heard of are the ones who do things that other are the ones who do things that other are the ones who do things that other stand-up comics don't have the guts to stand-up comics don't have the guts to stand-up comics don't have the guts to do. The other thing I think with AI, I agree The other thing I think with AI, I agree with you wholeheartedly as a writer with you wholeheartedly as a writer with you wholeheartedly as a writer myself, is I find that you can get lazy myself, is I find that you can get lazy myself, is I find that you can get lazy if you don't write on a regular basis. if you don't write on a regular basis. if you don't write on a regular basis. Like you you don't use that muscle. So, Like you you don't use that muscle. So, Like you you don't use that muscle. So, in 2023, in 2023, in 2023, I realized my phone has has reshaped my I realized my phone has has reshaped my I realized my phone has has reshaped my brain brain brain to the point where I was losing to the point where I was losing to the point where I was losing attention span. So, I taught myself to attention span. So, I taught myself to attention span. So, I taught myself to read again, not the alphabet, but just read again, not the alphabet, but just read again, not the alphabet, but just to sit there for long periods of time to sit there for long periods of time to sit there for long periods of time and read. And I started with three or and read. And I started with three or and read. And I started with three or four pages without a break and got up to four pages without a break and got up to four pages without a break and got up to the point by the end of the year where I the point by the end of the year where I the point by the end of the year where I was reading 600-page tomes of really was reading 600-page tomes of really was reading 600-page tomes of really interesting historical stuff. interesting historical stuff. interesting historical stuff. can't do that. Good for you. Oh, I'll can't do that. Good for you. Oh, I'll can't do that. Good for you. Oh, I'll tell you, it was hard work, but I'm tell you, it was hard work, but I'm tell you, it was hard work, but I'm like, I used to be able to do this. I'm like, I used to be able to do this. I'm like, I used to be able to do this. I'm going to refocus my brain. I'm going to going to refocus my brain. I'm going to going to refocus my brain. I'm going to re-engage it. And I agree, starting from re-engage it. And I agree, starting from re-engage it. And I agree, starting from scratch, getting your point of view, scratch, getting your point of view, scratch, getting your point of view, using it as a supplement or a checker or using it as a supplement or a checker or using it as a supplement or a checker or a a a you know, whatever. But but if you lose you know, whatever. But but if you lose you know, whatever. But but if you lose that muscle, and I get, you know, we've that muscle, and I get, you know, we've that muscle, and I get, you know, we've done a whole series on AI and I don't done a whole series on AI and I don't done a whole series on AI and I don't want to belabor it, but there's like want to belabor it, but there's like want to belabor it, but there's like I can get I can do the in the style of I can get I can do the in the style of I can get I can do the in the style of Seth Godin prompts and and sound like Seth Godin prompts and and sound like Seth Godin prompts and and sound like Seth.

Seth. Seth. But you would say, "Yeah, that's not But you would say, "Yeah, that's not But you would say, "Yeah, that's not me." me." me." Right? Like there is there is a certain Right? Like there is there is a certain Right? Like there is there is a certain point at which I think point at which I think point at which I think the artist has to paint. The artist has the artist has to paint. The artist has the artist has to paint. The artist has to play. The artist has to write. Um do to play. The artist has to write. Um do to play. The artist has to write. Um do you think that agency will ever get lost you think that agency will ever get lost you think that agency will ever get lost or AI will be able to replicate that? I or AI will be able to replicate that? I or AI will be able to replicate that? I know that's kind of a know that's kind of a know that's kind of a hard to say question, but like what is hard to say question, but like what is hard to say question, but like what is it about humanness? it about humanness? it about humanness? It it definitely will be able to It will It it definitely will be able to It will It it definitely will be able to It will be able to replicate be able to replicate be able to replicate um um um faster and faster and faster until it faster and faster and faster until it faster and faster and faster until it looks like it's originating. looks like it's originating. looks like it's originating. I I think what makes something human is I I think what makes something human is I I think what makes something human is we took a risk that we would fail, and we took a risk that we would fail, and we took a risk that we would fail, and an AI doesn't understand that. an AI doesn't understand that. an AI doesn't understand that. But you know, what Andy Warhol did was But you know, what Andy Warhol did was But you know, what Andy Warhol did was brave but not difficult. brave but not difficult. brave but not difficult. And once you knew what he did, And once you knew what he did, And once you knew what he did, copying Andy Warhol's method, copying Andy Warhol's method, copying Andy Warhol's method, any art student could do it. Mhm. any art student could do it. Mhm. any art student could do it. Mhm. Right? So, that's going to happen over Right? So, that's going to happen over Right? So, that's going to happen over and over and over again. Whatever that and over and over again. Whatever that and over and over again. Whatever that is.

is. is. Any artist that could have a Any artist that could have a Any artist that could have a team the way Rembrandt did, team the way Rembrandt did, team the way Rembrandt did, an AI is going to do that. an AI is going to do that. an AI is going to do that. The hard part's still going to be The hard part's still going to be The hard part's still going to be risking our status risking our status risking our status to do an innovation. Mhm. to do an innovation. Mhm. to do an innovation. Mhm. And um I think when we think about And um I think when we think about And um I think when we think about productivity and breakthroughs just a productivity and breakthroughs just a productivity and breakthroughs just a few years from now, we're going to think few years from now, we're going to think few years from now, we're going to think about now as this weird time about now as this weird time about now as this weird time because because because the breakthroughs that people are going the breakthroughs that people are going the breakthroughs that people are going to have are just going to be totally to have are just going to be totally to have are just going to be totally different because there's so many other different because there's so many other different because there's so many other things that the AI can just do. things that the AI can just do. things that the AI can just do. Risking our status Risking our status Risking our status to bring an innovation. Yeah. to bring an innovation. Yeah. to bring an innovation. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to put that in my pipe and smoke that one put that in my pipe and smoke that one put that in my pipe and smoke that one for a little while. That's a that's a a for a little while. That's a that's a a for a little while. That's a that's a a really That is what leadership is. That really That is what leadership is. That really That is what leadership is. That is what creatives do. is what creatives do. is what creatives do. Is we risk our status. If you're Is we risk our status. If you're Is we risk our status. If you're actually doing meaningful work, Mhm. it actually doing meaningful work, Mhm. it actually doing meaningful work, Mhm. it might fail.

might fail. might fail. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so one more question. Um Okay, so one more question. Um Okay, so one more question. Um every This is a quote from the book. every This is a quote from the book. every This is a quote from the book. Every successful organization will fail Every successful organization will fail Every successful organization will fail unless it becomes something different unless it becomes something different unless it becomes something different before it does. before it does. before it does. Are there any opportunities or warnings Are there any opportunities or warnings Are there any opportunities or warnings you see for churches? Well, I think it's it speaks for itself, Well, I think it's it speaks for itself, right? And it would be naive and right? And it would be naive and right? And it would be naive and arrogant to think that every other arrogant to think that every other arrogant to think that every other institution is covered by this rule, but institution is covered by this rule, but institution is covered by this rule, but yours isn't. Yeah. yours isn't. Yeah. yours isn't. Yeah. Right? And the function of a church has Right? And the function of a church has Right? And the function of a church has changed dramatically in the last 200 changed dramatically in the last 200 changed dramatically in the last 200 years, 100 years, 50 years. And yet the years, 100 years, 50 years. And yet the years, 100 years, 50 years. And yet the buildings haven't changed that much, and buildings haven't changed that much, and buildings haven't changed that much, and its place in our culture hasn't changed its place in our culture hasn't changed its place in our culture hasn't changed that much, but it clearly has a that much, but it clearly has a that much, but it clearly has a different function. different function. different function. There are very few people walking around There are very few people walking around There are very few people walking around who think that lightning bolts mean that who think that lightning bolts mean that who think that lightning bolts mean that someone is angry. Mhm. Whereas that was someone is angry. Mhm. Whereas that was someone is angry. Mhm. Whereas that was really common not too long ago. really common not too long ago. really common not too long ago. So, So, So, your function keeps changing, your function keeps changing, your function keeps changing, your infrastructure maybe not so much.

your infrastructure maybe not so much. your infrastructure maybe not so much. All of that's going to be accelerated by All of that's going to be accelerated by All of that's going to be accelerated by the generational shift. the generational shift. the generational shift. Mhm. So, Mhm. So, Mhm. So, what do we know? We know that humans what do we know? We know that humans what do we know? We know that humans still want solace still want solace still want solace and reassurance. and reassurance. and reassurance. They want connection. They want connection. They want connection. They want status. They want status. They want status. They want those things from other They want those things from other They want those things from other people. people. people. That is the opportunity. That is the opportunity. That is the opportunity. That is how to be of service. That is how to be of service. That is how to be of service. Walk away from the sunk costs of, "Yeah, Walk away from the sunk costs of, "Yeah, Walk away from the sunk costs of, "Yeah, but we have a 300-year-old building but we have a 300-year-old building but we have a 300-year-old building here." Fine, but that's not the point. here." Fine, but that's not the point. here." Fine, but that's not the point. Don't defend the building. Don't defend the building. Don't defend the building. Defend the mission, and the mission is Defend the mission, and the mission is Defend the mission, and the mission is to offer connection in the service of to offer connection in the service of to offer connection in the service of humanity. Mhm. humanity. Mhm. humanity. Mhm. Well, the book is called This is Well, the book is called This is Well, the book is called This is Strategy. Um Strategy. Um Strategy. Um loved it. It's going to sit on my shelf. loved it. It's going to sit on my shelf. loved it. It's going to sit on my shelf. Bought multiple copies. Highly recommend Bought multiple copies. Highly recommend Bought multiple copies. Highly recommend it. it. it. Uh Seth, are there any special offers Uh Seth, are there any special offers Uh Seth, are there any special offers for listeners? We're going to put this for listeners? We're going to put this for listeners? We're going to put this out, I think, around launch day. Um but out, I think, around launch day. Um but out, I think, around launch day. Um but anything in particular you want to draw anything in particular you want to draw anything in particular you want to draw people's attention to? people's attention to? people's attention to? So, at seth.blog/tis, So, at seth.blog/tis, So, at seth.blog/tis, I will list the chocolate bar, the I will list the chocolate bar, the I will list the chocolate bar, the strategy deck, the strategy deck, the strategy deck, the uh there's excerpts, there's videos, uh there's excerpts, there's videos, uh there's excerpts, there's videos, there's also I've had so much fun there's also I've had so much fun there's also I've had so much fun building all this stuff.

building all this stuff. building all this stuff. Oh, it's fantastic. Well, Seth, I want Oh, it's fantastic. Well, Seth, I want Oh, it's fantastic. Well, Seth, I want to thank you so much for everything you to thank you so much for everything you to thank you so much for everything you do, and until next time, thank you. do, and until next time, thank you. do, and until next time, thank you. Thank you, sir. What a treat.