How to Finish Well in Life and Leadership with Ray Johnston

Hey, welcome to uh the state of the Hey, welcome to uh the state of the church. We do this segment once a month church. We do this segment once a month church. We do this segment once a month on the podcast and we are diving into on the podcast and we are diving into on the podcast and we are diving into real time changing well demographics, real time changing well demographics, real time changing well demographics, narratives, storylines that are narratives, storylines that are narratives, storylines that are appearing in the church and I've got my appearing in the church and I've got my appearing in the church and I've got my good friend David Kinnaman, CEO of the good friend David Kinnaman, CEO of the good friend David Kinnaman, CEO of the Bara Group here. And David, today you're Bara Group here. And David, today you're Bara Group here. And David, today you're digging into some data from Bara's new digging into some data from Bara's new digging into some data from Bara's new report, the relationships of today's report, the relationships of today's report, the relationships of today's pastors. It recovers or covers, I should pastors. It recovers or covers, I should pastors. It recovers or covers, I should say, 10 insights on marriage parenting. say, 10 insights on marriage parenting. say, 10 insights on marriage parenting. I'm finding this fascinating. So, how I'm finding this fascinating. So, how I'm finding this fascinating. So, how are we doing? Like, what's going on in are we doing? Like, what's going on in are we doing? Like, what's going on in the interior lives of church leaders and the interior lives of church leaders and the interior lives of church leaders and pastors? pastors? pastors? Well, good to see you, Gary. So, so Well, good to see you, Gary. So, so Well, good to see you, Gary. So, so great to be here with your listeners and great to be here with your listeners and great to be here with your listeners and uh we've we're launching this new study uh we've we're launching this new study uh we've we're launching this new study called the relationships of today p called the relationships of today p called the relationships of today p today's pastors. Uh we're very excited today's pastors. Uh we're very excited today's pastors. Uh we're very excited about the findings. It it does paint a about the findings. It it does paint a about the findings. It it does paint a very positive mostly positive picture of very positive mostly positive picture of very positive mostly positive picture of the flourishing the relational the flourishing the relational the flourishing the relational flourishing of pastors. But there are flourishing of pastors. But there are flourishing of pastors. But there are some things we have to talk about. So some things we have to talk about. So some things we have to talk about. So today I want to talk specifically about today I want to talk specifically about today I want to talk specifically about the mostly strong par marriages of the mostly strong par marriages of the mostly strong par marriages of today's pastors. Uh overall pastors today's pastors. Uh overall pastors today's pastors. Uh overall pastors score low on relational health generally score low on relational health generally score low on relational health generally in terms of friendships. They're in terms of friendships. They're in terms of friendships. They're actually lower in their relationships in actually lower in their relationships in actually lower in their relationships in general. So that's an important general. So that's an important general. So that's an important a little alarming that hasn't turned a little alarming that hasn't turned a little alarming that hasn't turned around.

around. around. Exactly. Yeah. Uh but marriage is one of Exactly. Yeah. Uh but marriage is one of Exactly. Yeah. Uh but marriage is one of the few places in their relational the few places in their relational the few places in their relational health that they're actually doing uh health that they're actually doing uh health that they're actually doing uh pretty well. So among those pastors who pretty well. So among those pastors who pretty well. So among those pastors who are married and the vast majority of are married and the vast majority of are married and the vast majority of pastors are married 76% say their pastor pastors are married 76% say their pastor pastors are married 76% say their pastor their spouse is their best friend um their spouse is their best friend um their spouse is their best friend um about half feel their spouse understands about half feel their spouse understands about half feel their spouse understands their ministry struggles 47% and in life their ministry struggles 47% and in life their ministry struggles 47% and in life generally at 53%. Uh but that I think generally at 53%. Uh but that I think generally at 53%. Uh but that I think leaves some room for for improvement. leaves some room for for improvement. leaves some room for for improvement. And then pastors who feel like And then pastors who feel like And then pastors who feel like half don't, right? That's the other half don't, right? That's the other half don't, right? That's the other thing, right? thing, right? thing, right? Yeah. The half wouldn't didn't give the Yeah. The half wouldn't didn't give the Yeah. The half wouldn't didn't give the strongest um strongest um strongest um strong strong agreement to that. Uh but strong strong agreement to that. Uh but strong strong agreement to that. Uh but half don't give strong agreement. And I half don't give strong agreement. And I half don't give strong agreement. And I think that's that's an important uh think that's that's an important uh think that's that's an important uh metric, too. metric, too. metric, too. And then pastors who feel like their And then pastors who feel like their And then pastors who feel like their spouse understands their struggles are spouse understands their struggles are spouse understands their struggles are nearly 40% po percentage points more nearly 40% po percentage points more nearly 40% po percentage points more likely to say that it's very true that likely to say that it's very true that likely to say that it's very true that they feel supported by their spouse in they feel supported by their spouse in they feel supported by their spouse in their role. So there's a real their role. So there's a real their role. So there's a real correlation between, you know, feeling correlation between, you know, feeling correlation between, you know, feeling like your spouse understands what it is like your spouse understands what it is like your spouse understands what it is you're doing in ministry, what you're you're doing in ministry, what you're you're doing in ministry, what you're shooting for, and again, when when shooting for, and again, when when shooting for, and again, when when you've got sort of peace at home and an you've got sort of peace at home and an you've got sort of peace at home and an alignment, there's a lot greater alignment, there's a lot greater alignment, there's a lot greater resilience for leaders. So those are resilience for leaders. So those are resilience for leaders. So those are those are just a few of the findings. In those are just a few of the findings. In those are just a few of the findings. In addition, uh some of the challenges, 44% addition, uh some of the challenges, 44% addition, uh some of the challenges, 44% uh of pastors experience some marital uh of pastors experience some marital uh of pastors experience some marital conflict, um which and I think everyone conflict, um which and I think everyone conflict, um which and I think everyone probably experiences probably experiences probably experiences going to be like, "Yeah, I've been going to be like, "Yeah, I've been going to be like, "Yeah, I've been married." Yep, get it.

married." Yep, get it. married." Yep, get it. Uh the top the top sources of conflict Uh the top the top sources of conflict Uh the top the top sources of conflict for for pastors who are married include for for pastors who are married include for for pastors who are married include time management, which makes sense, time management, which makes sense, time management, which makes sense, uh emotional intimacy and ministry uh emotional intimacy and ministry uh emotional intimacy and ministry related stress. So there's occupational related stress. So there's occupational related stress. So there's occupational hazards that come with pastoring. And hazards that come with pastoring. And hazards that come with pastoring. And then finally uh only 28% are very then finally uh only 28% are very then finally uh only 28% are very satisfied with the time they can give to satisfied with the time they can give to satisfied with the time they can give to their marriage. their marriage. their marriage. Um so only a quarter and yet 52% of Um so only a quarter and yet 52% of Um so only a quarter and yet 52% of pastors don't use any formal support, pastors don't use any formal support, pastors don't use any formal support, mentoring, counseling, coaching. Only 6% mentoring, counseling, coaching. Only 6% mentoring, counseling, coaching. Only 6% regularly attend marriage counseling. regularly attend marriage counseling. regularly attend marriage counseling. So, um, one of the highlights here, an So, um, one of the highlights here, an So, um, one of the highlights here, an important one for us to talk about is important one for us to talk about is important one for us to talk about is that pastors seem to be slow to seek out that pastors seem to be slow to seek out that pastors seem to be slow to seek out the very help that they offer and the very help that they offer and the very help that they offer and suggest to others, uh, when their own suggest to others, uh, when their own suggest to others, uh, when their own relationships are are needing a tuneup relationships are are needing a tuneup relationships are are needing a tuneup or they're even suffering. So, I think or they're even suffering. So, I think or they're even suffering. So, I think this again, this pastors, the this again, this pastors, the this again, this pastors, the relationships of today's pastors, this relationships of today's pastors, this relationships of today's pastors, this great new study great new study great new study points to 10 key insights. We're very uh points to 10 key insights. We're very uh points to 10 key insights. We're very uh we're very pleased to take a look now we're very pleased to take a look now we're very pleased to take a look now uh at the health of pastors and what we uh at the health of pastors and what we uh at the health of pastors and what we can do to help support them.

can do to help support them. can do to help support them. Well, I love that you're looking into Well, I love that you're looking into Well, I love that you're looking into this and you know, part of it is here we this and you know, part of it is here we this and you know, part of it is here we are alone again in leadership, right? are alone again in leadership, right? are alone again in leadership, right? this is this is not necessarily the way this is this is not necessarily the way this is this is not necessarily the way God designed it and intended it, but I God designed it and intended it, but I God designed it and intended it, but I appreciate it because it's a good look appreciate it because it's a good look appreciate it because it's a good look in the mirror. And I think it's an in the mirror. And I think it's an in the mirror. And I think it's an opportunity for us to really get better opportunity for us to really get better opportunity for us to really get better connected with maybe some of the connected with maybe some of the connected with maybe some of the professional resources that we refer professional resources that we refer professional resources that we refer other people to cuz other people need other people to cuz other people need other people to cuz other people need it. And maybe diversifying that it. And maybe diversifying that it. And maybe diversifying that friendship. I don't know. I mean, you friendship. I don't know. I mean, you friendship. I don't know. I mean, you had a long marriage with Jill, but I had a long marriage with Jill, but I had a long marriage with Jill, but I found with Tony that, you know, I don't found with Tony that, you know, I don't found with Tony that, you know, I don't think God designed designed my spouse to think God designed designed my spouse to think God designed designed my spouse to bear the full pressure of everything bear the full pressure of everything bear the full pressure of everything that's wrong in my life. I think that's that's wrong in my life. I think that's that's wrong in my life. I think that's why he gave us friends as well why he gave us friends as well why he gave us friends as well and community. So, some good notes and community. So, some good notes and community. So, some good notes there. David, I'm I'm looking forward. there. David, I'm I'm looking forward. there. David, I'm I'm looking forward. You got more next month, right, from You got more next month, right, from You got more next month, right, from this study. So, we'll drill down on this study. So, we'll drill down on this study. So, we'll drill down on that. If you want more as a leader, I that. If you want more as a leader, I that. If you want more as a leader, I would really encourage you to check it would really encourage you to check it would really encourage you to check it out. The Barner Group is just producing out. The Barner Group is just producing out. The Barner Group is just producing some incredible resources this year in some incredible resources this year in some incredible resources this year in particular in real time. You can find it particular in real time. You can find it particular in real time. You can find it all at stateoftheurch.com/carry all at stateoftheurch.com/carry all at stateoftheurch.com/carry and uh we'll be catching up next month.

and uh we'll be catching up next month. and uh we'll be catching up next month. So keep an ear for that. And in the So keep an ear for that. And in the So keep an ear for that. And in the meantime, let's go to our regularly meantime, let's go to our regularly meantime, let's go to our regularly scheduled episode. I'm not sure, scheduled episode. I'm not sure, scheduled episode. I'm not sure, this is an overstatement. I'm not sure this is an overstatement. I'm not sure this is an overstatement. I'm not sure cynicism is curable. Um cynicism is curable. Um cynicism is curable. Um I think and I think it is if somebody I think and I think it is if somebody I think and I think it is if somebody decides I'm going to stop it um and decides I'm going to stop it um and decides I'm going to stop it um and takes a and basically takes a route out. takes a and basically takes a route out. takes a and basically takes a route out. Um in my opinion cynicism Um in my opinion cynicism Um in my opinion cynicism is an addictive drug people take to make is an addictive drug people take to make is an addictive drug people take to make themselves feel superior. We discovered themselves feel superior. We discovered themselves feel superior. We discovered there are seven things that if somebody there are seven things that if somebody there are seven things that if somebody will build them into their life they will build them into their life they will build them into their life they will have sustainable hope. The first will have sustainable hope. The first will have sustainable hope. The first one was this. one was this. one was this. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, today you want to find out the one thing today you want to find out the one thing today you want to find out the one thing that separates ministry survivors from that separates ministry survivors from that separates ministry survivors from ministry casualties. The people who ministry casualties. The people who ministry casualties. The people who finish well versus the people who don't finish well versus the people who don't finish well versus the people who don't and who either flame out or they have and who either flame out or they have and who either flame out or they have some kind of, you know, moral crisis in some kind of, you know, moral crisis in some kind of, you know, moral crisis in their life that disqualifies them from their life that disqualifies them from their life that disqualifies them from leadership. Well, Ray Johnston has been leadership. Well, Ray Johnston has been leadership. Well, Ray Johnston has been leading Bayside Church in Sacramento, leading Bayside Church in Sacramento, leading Bayside Church in Sacramento, California for over three decades. He California for over three decades. He California for over three decades. He shares some of his secrets to lasting shares some of his secrets to lasting shares some of his secrets to lasting decades in ministry. I'm so glad you decades in ministry. I'm so glad you decades in ministry. I'm so glad you joined us. You can like, subscribe, joined us. You can like, subscribe, joined us. You can like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation leave a comment to join the conversation leave a comment to join the conversation or join us in the Art of Leadership or join us in the Art of Leadership or join us in the Art of Leadership Academy. I would love to have you there.

Academy. I would love to have you there. Academy. I would love to have you there. We're having robust conversations with We're having robust conversations with We're having robust conversations with thousands of church leaders about these thousands of church leaders about these thousands of church leaders about these very episodes. And sometimes, you know, very episodes. And sometimes, you know, very episodes. And sometimes, you know, you want to take stuff off the comments you want to take stuff off the comments you want to take stuff off the comments publicly, have them privately. Click the publicly, have them privately. Click the publicly, have them privately. Click the link and you will get there. But first, link and you will get there. But first, link and you will get there. But first, before we get to a conversation with before we get to a conversation with before we get to a conversation with Rey, here's a word from our very Rey, here's a word from our very Rey, here's a word from our very carefully chosen partners. This episode carefully chosen partners. This episode carefully chosen partners. This episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So mark your calendars and make plans to mark your calendars and make plans to mark your calendars and make plans to join me this fall for a very historic join me this fall for a very historic join me this fall for a very historic event, incredible conference held by my event, incredible conference held by my event, incredible conference held by my good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be at the Convoy of Hopes Global at the Convoy of Hopes Global at the Convoy of Hopes Global Headquarters and Training Center in Headquarters and Training Center in Headquarters and Training Center in Springfield, Missouri, November 5th Springfield, Missouri, November 5th Springfield, Missouri, November 5th through 7th for the inaugural Hope through 7th for the inaugural Hope through 7th for the inaugural Hope Summit. It's a gathering of more than Summit. It's a gathering of more than Summit. It's a gathering of more than 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. and it's going to provide you with a and it's going to provide you with a and it's going to provide you with a wealth of resources designed to help you wealth of resources designed to help you wealth of resources designed to help you have a significantly greater impact in have a significantly greater impact in have a significantly greater impact in your ministry from neighborhoods to your ministry from neighborhoods to your ministry from neighborhoods to nations. Hope Summit has an amazing nations. Hope Summit has an amazing nations. Hope Summit has an amazing lineup of speakers like Chris Hodgeges lineup of speakers like Chris Hodgeges lineup of speakers like Chris Hodgeges and Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. and Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. and Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. Natalie Grant will be leading worship Natalie Grant will be leading worship Natalie Grant will be leading worship and can I tell you they got a great and can I tell you they got a great and can I tell you they got a great little coffee shop in that uh airport at little coffee shop in that uh airport at little coffee shop in that uh airport at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at hopesummit.com/carry hopesummit.com/carry hopesummit.com/carry to take advantage of a special to take advantage of a special to take advantage of a special discounted rate. That's discounted rate. That's discounted rate. That's hopesummit.com/carey hopesummit.com/carey hopesummit.com/carey and hope to see you this November at and hope to see you this November at and hope to see you this November at HopeSummit. Well, Ray, welcome to the HopeSummit. Well, Ray, welcome to the HopeSummit. Well, Ray, welcome to the podcast. This is so long overdue and I'm podcast. This is so long overdue and I'm podcast. This is so long overdue and I'm so glad it's happening.

so glad it's happening. so glad it's happening. Hey, great to be with you, man. We Hey, great to be with you, man. We Hey, great to be with you, man. We missed you at our Thrive conference this missed you at our Thrive conference this missed you at our Thrive conference this year, but year, but year, but well, I was just, you know, sojouring in well, I was just, you know, sojouring in well, I was just, you know, sojouring in the hospital with um what do they call the hospital with um what do they call the hospital with um what do they call it? Warm idiopathic uh hemolytic anemia. it? Warm idiopathic uh hemolytic anemia. it? Warm idiopathic uh hemolytic anemia. I was busy. So, I was busy. So, I was busy. So, everybody right now is a dictionary out everybody right now is a dictionary out everybody right now is a dictionary out gone. gone. gone. I know. I had to call you from the I know. I had to call you from the I know. I had to call you from the hospital and text you and say, "I'm not hospital and text you and say, "I'm not hospital and text you and say, "I'm not able to do the Thrive conference. I felt able to do the Thrive conference. I felt able to do the Thrive conference. I felt absolutely terrible about it." But, you absolutely terrible about it." But, you absolutely terrible about it." But, you know, my first hospitalization, I think, know, my first hospitalization, I think, know, my first hospitalization, I think, uh, I've talked about it on my social. I uh, I've talked about it on my social. I uh, I've talked about it on my social. I don't think we've talked about it a lot don't think we've talked about it a lot don't think we've talked about it a lot on this podcast, but that was back in on this podcast, but that was back in on this podcast, but that was back in late April, May of 2025. First time I late April, May of 2025. First time I late April, May of 2025. First time I was in the hospital since I had my was in the hospital since I had my was in the hospital since I had my tonsils out as a kid. And um, anyway, tonsils out as a kid. And um, anyway, tonsils out as a kid. And um, anyway, I'm making a recovery. And uh but wow, I'm making a recovery. And uh but wow, I'm making a recovery. And uh but wow, next year at Thrive, right, I'll be next year at Thrive, right, I'll be next year at Thrive, right, I'll be there. there. there. Friend, I'm pray I've been we've been Friend, I'm pray I've been we've been Friend, I'm pray I've been we've been praying for you and praying for you and praying for you and you have been texting to see how I am. you have been texting to see how I am. you have been texting to see how I am. She's having dinner at your house She's having dinner at your house She's having dinner at your house tonight. tonight. tonight. She is. Yeah. Yeah. Christy and Joey are She is. Yeah. Yeah. Christy and Joey are She is. Yeah. Yeah. Christy and Joey are coming over and we're going to hang out. coming over and we're going to hang out. coming over and we're going to hang out. It's going to be so much fun. So, you It's going to be so much fun. So, you It's going to be so much fun. So, you know, Ry, I you're you're a leader who know, Ry, I you're you're a leader who know, Ry, I you're you're a leader who absolutely fascinates me because you absolutely fascinates me because you absolutely fascinates me because you lead one of the biggest churches in lead one of the biggest churches in lead one of the biggest churches in America. Um, you're so America. Um, you're so America. Um, you're so great at developing other leaders, which great at developing other leaders, which great at developing other leaders, which I really want to tap into. You have the I really want to tap into. You have the I really want to tap into. You have the energy. Is it fair to say you're in your energy. Is it fair to say you're in your energy. Is it fair to say you're in your 70s? Is that fair?

70s? Is that fair? 70s? Is that fair? Yep. You bet. Yep. You bet. Yep. You bet. Yeah. And you have the energy of someone Yeah. And you have the energy of someone Yeah. And you have the energy of someone in their teens, I think. Um, that's my in their teens, I think. Um, that's my in their teens, I think. Um, that's my experience of you. experience of you. experience of you. Three hours a day. Three hours a day. Three hours a day. That's about three hours a day of energy That's about three hours a day of energy That's about three hours a day of energy in your teenage zone. But no, you're in your teenage zone. But no, you're in your teenage zone. But no, you're always optimistic, always positive, always optimistic, always positive, always optimistic, always positive, always like ready, bubbling forward new always like ready, bubbling forward new always like ready, bubbling forward new ideas. But it didn't start out that way. ideas. But it didn't start out that way. ideas. But it didn't start out that way. You went from being an atheist. So you You went from being an atheist. So you You went from being an atheist. So you had your own faith experience. What uh had your own faith experience. What uh had your own faith experience. What uh and and I remember having dinner with and and I remember having dinner with and and I remember having dinner with you and Carol one night and telling me you and Carol one night and telling me you and Carol one night and telling me about your family history and about your family history and about your family history and everything, too. Um didn't grow up everything, too. Um didn't grow up everything, too. Um didn't grow up exactly as a church boy. exactly as a church boy. exactly as a church boy. Uh no, grew up in a Southern California Uh no, grew up in a Southern California Uh no, grew up in a Southern California family. Um my mom and dad were big deals family. Um my mom and dad were big deals family. Um my mom and dad were big deals down there. My dad was president of a down there. My dad was president of a down there. My dad was president of a media company when he was in his 40s and media company when he was in his 40s and media company when he was in his 40s and and matter of fact he ran in some pretty and matter of fact he ran in some pretty and matter of fact he ran in some pretty unbelievable circles. Guys wanted to run unbelievable circles. Guys wanted to run unbelievable circles. Guys wanted to run him for governor of California. He him for governor of California. He him for governor of California. He turned him down and they ran a guy named turned him down and they ran a guy named turned him down and they ran a guy named Ronald Reagan instead. So the circles he Ronald Reagan instead. So the circles he Ronald Reagan instead. So the circles he grew up in. So grew up in. So grew up in. So what studio did he run?

what studio did he run? what studio did he run? They he ran it was the Night Ritter They he ran it was the Night Ritter They he ran it was the Night Ritter Publications and so there were Publications and so there were Publications and so there were newspapers down newspapers down newspapers down Yeah, I remember Night Ritter. Wow. Yeah, I remember Night Ritter. Wow. Yeah, I remember Night Ritter. Wow. Yeah. Um, and but it's interesting. He Yeah. Um, and but it's interesting. He Yeah. Um, and but it's interesting. He was he was an atheist growing up. So I was he was an atheist growing up. So I was he was an atheist growing up. So I was I was an atheist growing up. He then was I was an atheist growing up. He then was I was an atheist growing up. He then became an alcoholic. So did my mom. He became an alcoholic. So did my mom. He became an alcoholic. So did my mom. He became an alcoholic rajaholic. And and became an alcoholic rajaholic. And and became an alcoholic rajaholic. And and so that's the home I grew up in. I had so that's the home I grew up in. I had so that's the home I grew up in. I had two younger sisters. Um and I got the two younger sisters. Um and I got the two younger sisters. Um and I got the best parenting best parenting best parenting because when somebody is in the process because when somebody is in the process because when somebody is in the process of becoming an alcoholic, they become a of becoming an alcoholic, they become a of becoming an alcoholic, they become a worse parent. And so I kind of got the worse parent. And so I kind of got the worse parent. And so I kind of got the best parenting. Uh but about age 10 or best parenting. Uh but about age 10 or best parenting. Uh but about age 10 or 11, he was checking out and my younger 11, he was checking out and my younger 11, he was checking out and my younger sisters didn't get much of that. Um and sisters didn't get much of that. Um and sisters didn't get much of that. Um and but because he was an atheist, I was an but because he was an atheist, I was an but because he was an atheist, I was an atheist. Matter of fact, Carrie actually atheist. Matter of fact, Carrie actually atheist. Matter of fact, Carrie actually talked a guy out of becoming a Christian talked a guy out of becoming a Christian talked a guy out of becoming a Christian when I was 18 years old, which does not when I was 18 years old, which does not when I was 18 years old, which does not look good on the pastor's resume. look good on the pastor's resume. look good on the pastor's resume. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. But a whole I was playing basketball. I But a whole I was playing basketball. I But a whole I was playing basketball. I played basketball in high school and played basketball in high school and played basketball in high school and college and a couple of guys on the team college and a couple of guys on the team college and a couple of guys on the team were Christians and they hauled me to were Christians and they hauled me to were Christians and they hauled me to this church and I walked in, it was Lake this church and I walked in, it was Lake this church and I walked in, it was Lake Avenue Church in Pasadena, California.

Avenue Church in Pasadena, California. Avenue Church in Pasadena, California. Um, had a pastor named Ray Orland who Um, had a pastor named Ray Orland who Um, had a pastor named Ray Orland who was like Jesus as a senior pastor was like Jesus as a senior pastor was like Jesus as a senior pastor and they had a youth pastor named Chuck and they had a youth pastor named Chuck and they had a youth pastor named Chuck Miller who was like General Patton and Miller who was like General Patton and Miller who was like General Patton and kind of a great combination. But it took kind of a great combination. But it took kind of a great combination. But it took me my first ever time in church. I me my first ever time in church. I me my first ever time in church. I walked out of there going there's walked out of there going there's walked out of there going there's thousands of people here. They these are thousands of people here. They these are thousands of people here. They these are some of the sharpest people I've ever some of the sharpest people I've ever some of the sharpest people I've ever met, okay? Business leaders, just very met, okay? Business leaders, just very met, okay? Business leaders, just very sharp people, socially. I just really I sharp people, socially. I just really I sharp people, socially. I just really I I went the calor of people in this room I went the calor of people in this room I went the calor of people in this room is really good. And my real thought was, is really good. And my real thought was, is really good. And my real thought was, how could such smart people believe such how could such smart people believe such how could such smart people believe such stupid stuff. stupid stuff. stupid stuff. But I kept going back and then I read But I kept going back and then I read But I kept going back and then I read everything I could. It took about six to everything I could. It took about six to everything I could. It took about six to eight months walking in the mountains, eight months walking in the mountains, eight months walking in the mountains, unpacking stuff in my head, reading all unpacking stuff in my head, reading all unpacking stuff in my head, reading all this kind of stuff. And um and it wasn't this kind of stuff. And um and it wasn't this kind of stuff. And um and it wasn't one thing. It was really did the one thing. It was really did the one thing. It was really did the resurrection happen and is the evidence resurrection happen and is the evidence resurrection happen and is the evidence for it up compelling enough? And I for it up compelling enough? And I for it up compelling enough? And I remember one time waking up and I went, remember one time waking up and I went, remember one time waking up and I went, "Oh man, it's 51 to 49. I now believe "Oh man, it's 51 to 49. I now believe "Oh man, it's 51 to 49. I now believe more than I don't believe." which means more than I don't believe." which means more than I don't believe." which means I'm now on this side of the ledger now.

I'm now on this side of the ledger now. I'm now on this side of the ledger now. Want to become a Christian. I did not Want to become a Christian. I did not Want to become a Christian. I did not want to go to church. I did not want to want to go to church. I did not want to want to go to church. I did not want to give 10% of my money away. I did not give 10% of my money away. I did not give 10% of my money away. I did not want to do any of that stuff. But it was want to do any of that stuff. But it was want to do any of that stuff. But it was so compelling that I pretty much went so compelling that I pretty much went so compelling that I pretty much went all right. The minute I believed it was all right. The minute I believed it was all right. The minute I believed it was true, I was all in. true, I was all in. true, I was all in. And and so so I dove in and the rest is And and so so I dove in and the rest is And and so so I dove in and the rest is kind of history. But for me, I was I'm kind of history. But for me, I was I'm kind of history. But for me, I was I'm an evidence guy and it was more evidence an evidence guy and it was more evidence an evidence guy and it was more evidence for the resurrection. Um and um and it for the resurrection. Um and um and it for the resurrection. Um and um and it but it wasn't one thing. It was a but it wasn't one thing. It was a but it wasn't one thing. It was a prepoundonderance of evidence and I just prepoundonderance of evidence and I just prepoundonderance of evidence and I just went this cuz for me the key issue was went this cuz for me the key issue was went this cuz for me the key issue was that did the resurrection happen or that did the resurrection happen or that did the resurrection happen or didn't? If it did, it's legit. If not, didn't? If it did, it's legit. If not, didn't? If it did, it's legit. If not, you could throw the whole thing away. So you could throw the whole thing away. So you could throw the whole thing away. So want to back up a little bit. You know, want to back up a little bit. You know, want to back up a little bit. You know, you talked about alcoholic rage aahholic you talked about alcoholic rage aahholic you talked about alcoholic rage aahholic that when someone's becoming an that when someone's becoming an that when someone's becoming an alcoholic, they become a better parent alcoholic, they become a better parent alcoholic, they become a better parent because they become what? A worse because they become what? A worse because they become what? A worse parent. What can can you unpack some of parent. What can can you unpack some of parent. What can can you unpack some of that? What what happened? Because, you that? What what happened? Because, you that? What what happened? Because, you know, and I'll tell you one of the know, and I'll tell you one of the know, and I'll tell you one of the reasons I'm asking the question, you reasons I'm asking the question, you reasons I'm asking the question, you know, as I get older, I think a lot know, as I get older, I think a lot know, as I get older, I think a lot about my childhood more than I did 20 about my childhood more than I did 20 about my childhood more than I did 20 years ago. I don't know whether you do, years ago. I don't know whether you do, years ago. I don't know whether you do, but um having read Bono's biography but um having read Bono's biography but um having read Bono's biography Stories of Surrender uh watching the Stories of Surrender uh watching the Stories of Surrender uh watching the documentary Stories of Surrender uh just documentary Stories of Surrender uh just documentary Stories of Surrender uh just recently on Apple TV, he spent a recently on Apple TV, he spent a recently on Apple TV, he spent a 90-minute prime time TV special, 80% of 90-minute prime time TV special, 80% of 90-minute prime time TV special, 80% of it talking about his parents as a it talking about his parents as a it talking about his parents as a 65-year-old man, which was really 65-year-old man, which was really 65-year-old man, which was really interesting. It was really well done.

interesting. It was really well done. interesting. It was really well done. But I'm convinced But I'm convinced But I'm convinced that in our leadership, in our life, that in our leadership, in our life, that in our leadership, in our life, those early experiences wound us, shape those early experiences wound us, shape those early experiences wound us, shape us. So, can you take us back a little us. So, can you take us back a little us. So, can you take us back a little bit and unpack how that developed young bit and unpack how that developed young bit and unpack how that developed young Ray that became the mega church pastor Ray that became the mega church pastor Ray that became the mega church pastor we're talking to today? Like, what were we're talking to today? Like, what were we're talking to today? Like, what were those years from 5 to 15 like in your those years from 5 to 15 like in your those years from 5 to 15 like in your house? house? house? All right, going deep. Here we go. All right, going deep. Here we go. All right, going deep. Here we go. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I was um I haven't talked about this I was um I haven't talked about this I was um I haven't talked about this much. Um much. Um much. Um my dad when I was about 10 or 11 checked my dad when I was about 10 or 11 checked my dad when I was about 10 or 11 checked out and his alcohol intake incre and it out and his alcohol intake incre and it out and his alcohol intake incre and it was it was it was horrible. Um was it was it was horrible. Um was it was it was horrible. Um because he was an alcoholic rajaholic because he was an alcoholic rajaholic because he was an alcoholic rajaholic and then when my mom would drink they and then when my mom would drink they and then when my mom would drink they would have these all out. So it would be would have these all out. So it would be would have these all out. So it would be like midnight. like midnight. like midnight. I'd be in bed. My two sisters were in I'd be in bed. My two sisters were in I'd be in bed. My two sisters were in the adjoining room. They they were in the adjoining room. They they were in the adjoining room. They they were in their own bedroom and they were both their own bedroom and they were both their own bedroom and they were both younger. And I'm it's about 10 or 11 and younger. And I'm it's about 10 or 11 and younger. And I'm it's about 10 or 11 and you would hear these screams and things you would hear these screams and things you would hear these screams and things getting thrown and all this stuff chaos.

getting thrown and all this stuff chaos. getting thrown and all this stuff chaos. And my younger sisters would come And my younger sisters would come And my younger sisters would come running into my room and crying, hop in running into my room and crying, hop in running into my room and crying, hop in bed with me. I'd give them a hug. And if bed with me. I'd give them a hug. And if bed with me. I'd give them a hug. And if it continued, I would take the screen it continued, I would take the screen it continued, I would take the screen off the window. I would hop out. They off the window. I would hop out. They off the window. I would hop out. They would hop out. And we'd be walking the would hop out. And we'd be walking the would hop out. And we'd be walking the streets in Southern California, streets in Southern California, streets in Southern California, midnight, 1 in the morning, 2 in the midnight, 1 in the morning, 2 in the midnight, 1 in the morning, 2 in the morning, until we come back to the morning, until we come back to the morning, until we come back to the house. And we didn't hear any yelling. house. And we didn't hear any yelling. house. And we didn't hear any yelling. So they had worn themselves out and So they had worn themselves out and So they had worn themselves out and guard the bed or whatever they were guard the bed or whatever they were guard the bed or whatever they were doing. And so I'd get them back in. I doing. And so I'd get them back in. I doing. And so I'd get them back in. I actually had a trundle bed underneath my actually had a trundle bed underneath my actually had a trundle bed underneath my bed. So I would pull it out, put them in bed. So I would pull it out, put them in bed. So I would pull it out, put them in there. So there. So there. So protect your sisters. protect your sisters. protect your sisters. Yeah. It was a crazy childhood. Crazy Yeah. It was a crazy childhood. Crazy Yeah. It was a crazy childhood. Crazy for them. Um and but then what happened for them. Um and but then what happened for them. Um and but then what happened is this. My my grandmother who was in is this. My my grandmother who was in is this. My my grandmother who was in St. Paul, Minnesota. Um and by this time St. Paul, Minnesota. Um and by this time St. Paul, Minnesota. Um and by this time I ended up becoming a Christian. I'm I ended up becoming a Christian. I'm I ended up becoming a Christian. I'm It's my senior year of college and I my It's my senior year of college and I my It's my senior year of college and I my mom and I go back to move my grandmother mom and I go back to move my grandmother mom and I go back to move my grandmother out of her old house and to bring her to out of her old house and to bring her to out of her old house and to bring her to the West Coast. And so I'm going through the West Coast. And so I'm going through the West Coast. And so I'm going through stuff in at night cleaning out drawers, stuff in at night cleaning out drawers, stuff in at night cleaning out drawers, all this kind of stuff. And it's all this kind of stuff. And it's all this kind of stuff. And it's midnight one night and everybody has midnight one night and everybody has midnight one night and everybody has gone to bed and I open this drawer and I gone to bed and I open this drawer and I gone to bed and I open this drawer and I pick all this stuff out and I pick out a pick all this stuff out and I pick out a pick all this stuff out and I pick out a newspaper and I look at the headline and newspaper and I look at the headline and newspaper and I look at the headline and it says Ray Johnston. My I'm the third.

it says Ray Johnston. My I'm the third. it says Ray Johnston. My I'm the third. So my dad was Ray Johnston Jr. and his So my dad was Ray Johnston Jr. and his So my dad was Ray Johnston Jr. and his dad was a me was a judge in Minnesota. dad was a me was a judge in Minnesota. dad was a me was a judge in Minnesota. Very sharp guy. He was injured World War Very sharp guy. He was injured World War Very sharp guy. He was injured World War I. Nobody knew anything about PTSD. All I. Nobody knew anything about PTSD. All I. Nobody knew anything about PTSD. All they did was give him opium. And they did was give him opium. And they did was give him opium. And evidently he while being a judge got evidently he while being a judge got evidently he while being a judge got addicted to opium. And the article said addicted to opium. And the article said addicted to opium. And the article said Ray Johnston, judge um shot and killed Ray Johnston, judge um shot and killed Ray Johnston, judge um shot and killed himself last night. himself last night. himself last night. Suicide newspaper. Suicide newspaper. Suicide newspaper. And that was your grandfather. And that was your grandfather. And that was your grandfather. That was my grandfather. And I'm reading That was my grandfather. And I'm reading That was my grandfather. And I'm reading this and I'm going this and I'm going this and I'm going my dad was 10 my dad was 10 my dad was 10 when that happened. when that happened. when that happened. And And And and so and so and so that affected me in a b in two major that affected me in a b in two major that affected me in a b in two major ways. One is um one is I went I got we ways. One is um one is I went I got we ways. One is um one is I went I got we have four kids, two boys, twin have four kids, two boys, twin have four kids, two boys, twin daughters. They're awesome. Um but when daughters. They're awesome. Um but when daughters. They're awesome. Um but when they turned 10, I went I'm gonna have to they turned 10, I went I'm gonna have to they turned 10, I went I'm gonna have to pay attention. My dad was a great dad pay attention. My dad was a great dad pay attention. My dad was a great dad until I was 10. And I mean, we played until I was 10. And I mean, we played until I was 10. And I mean, we played every sport imaginable, golf, every I every sport imaginable, golf, every I every sport imaginable, golf, every I mean, we all this kind. But he turn But mean, we all this kind. But he turn But mean, we all this kind. But he turn But when I turned 10, he just vaporized. And when I turned 10, he just vaporized. And when I turned 10, he just vaporized. And then home was crazy. So I went, I'm then home was crazy. So I went, I'm then home was crazy. So I went, I'm going to have to be a lot more going to have to be a lot more going to have to be a lot more intentional about being a dad after intentional about being a dad after intentional about being a dad after they're 10 years old. Okay, that's one they're 10 years old. Okay, that's one they're 10 years old. Okay, that's one stream. Another stream was u another stream. Another stream was u another stream. Another stream was u another stream and that was when I went home.

stream and that was when I went home. stream and that was when I went home. I l home was an unsafe place. Um, you'd I l home was an unsafe place. Um, you'd I l home was an unsafe place. Um, you'd have to walk into my home, go find my have to walk into my home, go find my have to walk into my home, go find my dad and see how he was, and if he was dad and see how he was, and if he was dad and see how he was, and if he was okay, then you could relax and enjoy okay, then you could relax and enjoy okay, then you could relax and enjoy being there. But you couldn't relax and being there. But you couldn't relax and being there. But you couldn't relax and enjoy being there until you went and and enjoy being there until you went and and enjoy being there until you went and and found my dad and found found my dad and found found my dad and found took the temperature. took the temperature. took the temperature. Well, I get married to Carol, who was Well, I get married to Carol, who was Well, I get married to Carol, who was the most level-headed person in the the most level-headed person in the the most level-headed person in the world. And about first six months, I'm world. And about first six months, I'm world. And about first six months, I'm coming home and if she didn't run up and coming home and if she didn't run up and coming home and if she didn't run up and give me a big hug, I'd be like, "Are you give me a big hug, I'd be like, "Are you give me a big hug, I'd be like, "Are you okay? are we okay? And she pretty much okay? are we okay? And she pretty much okay? are we okay? And she pretty much at one point said, "You're going to at one point said, "You're going to at one point said, "You're going to assume we're okay, and if we're not, assume we're okay, and if we're not, assume we're okay, and if we're not, I'll let you know." And and and but I I'll let you know." And and and but I I'll let you know." And and and but I realized, wait a second. I unpacked this realized, wait a second. I unpacked this realized, wait a second. I unpacked this with her, and I just said, "I realize with her, and I just said, "I realize with her, and I just said, "I realize you're not my dad. So, I'm going to you're not my dad. So, I'm going to you're not my dad. So, I'm going to assume more good." And but all that assume more good." And but all that assume more good." And but all that stuff has ripple effects stuff has ripple effects stuff has ripple effects that either go negative or if you work that either go negative or if you work that either go negative or if you work them through counseling whatever you them through counseling whatever you them through counseling whatever you work them through you can you know you work them through you can you know you work them through you can you know you can I think get healthier and be more can I think get healthier and be more can I think get healthier and be more helpful but just awareness of the price helpful but just awareness of the price helpful but just awareness of the price tag that your past is going to lay on tag that your past is going to lay on tag that your past is going to lay on you. When did you start to realize that you. When did you start to realize that you. When did you start to realize that you had a lot to unpack? Because I think you had a lot to unpack? Because I think you had a lot to unpack? Because I think most people think their house is normal, most people think their house is normal, most people think their house is normal, right? Whether throwing stuff and right? Whether throwing stuff and right? Whether throwing stuff and getting drunk is normal or being sober getting drunk is normal or being sober getting drunk is normal or being sober and sane and not having dinner and sane and not having dinner and sane and not having dinner conversations is normal. Most people conversations is normal. Most people conversations is normal. Most people grow up thinking everybody's this way.

grow up thinking everybody's this way. grow up thinking everybody's this way. And then there's a certain point at And then there's a certain point at And then there's a certain point at which you kind of look around and go, which you kind of look around and go, which you kind of look around and go, "Oh, everybody's not this way." When did "Oh, everybody's not this way." When did "Oh, everybody's not this way." When did that hit you? that hit you? that hit you? The church. The church. The church. The church. Really? The church. Really? The church. Really? Church for I know now people have Church for I know now people have Church for I know now people have written books like Death by Church or written books like Death by Church or written books like Death by Church or loving God when you can't stand a loving God when you can't stand a loving God when you can't stand a church. all this kind of stuff. I'm on church. all this kind of stuff. I'm on church. all this kind of stuff. I'm on the extreme other end. Man, Carrie, I'd the extreme other end. Man, Carrie, I'd the extreme other end. Man, Carrie, I'd love matter of fact, all of you love matter of fact, all of you love matter of fact, all of you listening, just you may never hear. I listening, just you may never hear. I listening, just you may never hear. I love the Christian church. love the Christian church. love the Christian church. It was the Christian church that when I It was the Christian church that when I It was the Christian church that when I was an atheist put up with me and was an atheist put up with me and was an atheist put up with me and answered all my It was the Christian answered all my It was the Christian answered all my It was the Christian church that loved me. It was the church that loved me. It was the church that loved me. It was the Christian church that led me to Christ. Christian church that led me to Christ. Christian church that led me to Christ. It was the Christian church that helped It was the Christian church that helped It was the Christian church that helped me grow. It was the Christian church um me grow. It was the Christian church um me grow. It was the Christian church um that helped me discover my calling in that helped me discover my calling in that helped me discover my calling in life. It was the Christian church that life. It was the Christian church that life. It was the Christian church that um let me lead worship one time and um let me lead worship one time and um let me lead worship one time and helped me figure out I should never helped me figure out I should never helped me figure out I should never again do that. again do that. again do that. Um it was the Christian church that Um it was the Christian church that Um it was the Christian church that helped me find my calling. Um and it was helped me find my calling. Um and it was helped me find my calling. Um and it was the Christian church by comparison that the Christian church by comparison that the Christian church by comparison that taught me what I grew up in was not the taught me what I grew up in was not the taught me what I grew up in was not the norm that it could be.

norm that it could be. norm that it could be. And because I didn't have anything to And because I didn't have anything to And because I didn't have anything to compare it to. compare it to. compare it to. Sure. the Christian church. A matter of Sure. the Christian church. A matter of Sure. the Christian church. A matter of fact, it was the Christian church that fact, it was the Christian church that fact, it was the Christian church that basically healed my image of God, healed basically healed my image of God, healed basically healed my image of God, healed my image of myself, and healed my image my image of myself, and healed my image my image of myself, and healed my image of marriage. Um, and my mom and dad blew of marriage. Um, and my mom and dad blew of marriage. Um, and my mom and dad blew their marriage apart. Um, which was no their marriage apart. Um, which was no their marriage apart. Um, which was no great surprise to anybody cuz if you go great surprise to anybody cuz if you go great surprise to anybody cuz if you go back in my family tree, you go back 140 back in my family tree, you go back 140 back in my family tree, you go back 140 years, there wasn't one lasting years, there wasn't one lasting years, there wasn't one lasting marriage. Not one. marriage. Not one. marriage. Not one. I remember you telling me that and I was I remember you telling me that and I was I remember you telling me that and I was going to raise that today. 140 years. going to raise that today. 140 years. going to raise that today. 140 years. Everybody, Everybody, Everybody, not divorced, you know, not one lasting not divorced, you know, not one lasting not divorced, you know, not one lasting marriage. Grandparents both divorced. marriage. Grandparents both divorced. marriage. Grandparents both divorced. Um, mom had three sisters, married and Um, mom had three sisters, married and Um, mom had three sisters, married and divorced. One of them married three divorced. One of them married three divorced. One of them married three times. One of the marriages was three times. One of the marriages was three times. One of the marriages was three days. I mean, there were no lasting days. I mean, there were no lasting days. I mean, there were no lasting marriages in there. Um, Carol and I just marriages in there. Um, Carol and I just marriages in there. Um, Carol and I just celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary, celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary, celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary, which means which means which means Wow. Congratulations. Wow. Congratulations. Wow. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. It's all due to my Yeah, thank you. It's all due to my Yeah, thank you. It's all due to my wife. We um we have the longest running wife. We um we have the longest running wife. We um we have the longest running marriage in the history of my family marriage in the history of my family marriage in the history of my family tree. So, I just love it when somebody tree. So, I just love it when somebody tree. So, I just love it when somebody comes up to me and goes, "Yeah, I still comes up to me and goes, "Yeah, I still comes up to me and goes, "Yeah, I still think Jesus or the Bible or the church think Jesus or the Bible or the church think Jesus or the Bible or the church really make that much of a difference.

really make that much of a difference. really make that much of a difference. All I have to do is get my family tree All I have to do is get my family tree All I have to do is get my family tree out and go, out and go, out and go, 140 plus years of past disaster patterns 140 plus years of past disaster patterns 140 plus years of past disaster patterns were broken in one generation." Um, were broken in one generation." Um, were broken in one generation." Um, pretty much the church taught me, take pretty much the church taught me, take pretty much the church taught me, take my tree, take our family tree, cut it my tree, take our family tree, cut it my tree, take our family tree, cut it down, and we're just building a brand down, and we're just building a brand down, and we're just building a brand new family tree that hopefully goes on new family tree that hopefully goes on new family tree that hopefully goes on for generations with a different for generations with a different for generations with a different foundation. So, so I love the church foundation. So, so I love the church foundation. So, so I love the church because the church, it was the church. because the church, it was the church. because the church, it was the church. Like I'm living a life I don't deserve Like I'm living a life I don't deserve Like I'm living a life I don't deserve and it's all because of the Christian and it's all because of the Christian and it's all because of the Christian church. church. church. When you were 10, what shifted in your When you were 10, what shifted in your When you were 10, what shifted in your dad? dad? dad? Uh disconnection. Uh disconnection. Uh disconnection. The as alcohol rose, disconnection The as alcohol rose, disconnection The as alcohol rose, disconnection happened. And he he was it's funny cuz happened. And he he was it's funny cuz happened. And he he was it's funny cuz he was not the same guy. he was not the same guy. he was not the same guy. Like he when I was younger, Like he when I was younger, Like he when I was younger, we played every sport imaginable we played every sport imaginable we played every sport imaginable and and 24/7. He'd get home, we'd go and and 24/7. He'd get home, we'd go and and 24/7. He'd get home, we'd go play baseball, basketball. I mean, we'd play baseball, basketball. I mean, we'd play baseball, basketball. I mean, we'd golf every Saturday. I mean, all the golf every Saturday. I mean, all the golf every Saturday. I mean, all the stuff. And um and at 10 that all came to stuff. And um and at 10 that all came to stuff. And um and at 10 that all came to a screeching halt.

a screeching halt. a screeching halt. What did that do to you? You know what's What did that do to you? You know what's What did that do to you? You know what's funny? At the time funny? At the time funny? At the time when you're 10, you're also developing when you're 10, you're also developing when you're 10, you're also developing all these other friendships. Yeah. all these other friendships. Yeah. all these other friendships. Yeah. You're doing other stuff. So, I'm not You're doing other stuff. So, I'm not You're doing other stuff. So, I'm not sure I felt it sure I felt it sure I felt it as I don't know that it dawned on me as I don't know that it dawned on me as I don't know that it dawned on me that happening. that happening. that happening. Um Um Um I just thought, oh, when you're 10, 11, I just thought, oh, when you're 10, 11, I just thought, oh, when you're 10, 11, you're going with your friends, your you're going with your friends, your you're going with your friends, your dad's doing whatever he's doing. Um so, dad's doing whatever he's doing. Um so, dad's doing whatever he's doing. Um so, I don't know that it did a lot of that I don't know that it did a lot of that I don't know that it did a lot of that kind of stuff to me. Um, what it did kind of stuff to me. Um, what it did kind of stuff to me. Um, what it did though was wake me up as a dad to go, though was wake me up as a dad to go, though was wake me up as a dad to go, you know what, this is this is time to you know what, this is this is time to you know what, this is this is time to get closer and have more fun together. get closer and have more fun together. get closer and have more fun together. And so, and I was also in youth minister And so, and I was also in youth minister And so, and I was also in youth minister for a while. That was a massive benefit for a while. That was a massive benefit for a while. That was a massive benefit to it. So, to it. So, to it. So, yeah. when when I've got a few more yeah. when when I've got a few more yeah. when when I've got a few more questions about that and I want to ask questions about that and I want to ask questions about that and I want to ask you about what you did with your kids you about what you did with your kids you about what you did with your kids when they turned 10. But before we get when they turned 10. But before we get when they turned 10. But before we get there, I think a lot of these issues there, I think a lot of these issues there, I think a lot of these issues surface later in life, you know, in your surface later in life, you know, in your surface later in life, you know, in your 20s or 30s where you kind of notice, oh 20s or 30s where you kind of notice, oh 20s or 30s where you kind of notice, oh yeah, my dad wasn't there for me or yeah, my dad wasn't there for me or yeah, my dad wasn't there for me or yeah, they were raging alcoholics or yeah, they were raging alcoholics or yeah, they were raging alcoholics or yeah, my family tree does go back 140 yeah, my family tree does go back 140 yeah, my family tree does go back 140 years with no lasting marriages. Right.

years with no lasting marriages. Right. years with no lasting marriages. Right. When was that? Your 20s, your 30s? Has When was that? Your 20s, your 30s? Has When was that? Your 20s, your 30s? Has it been progressive over decades that it been progressive over decades that it been progressive over decades that you've kind of and then what did you do you've kind of and then what did you do you've kind of and then what did you do with that? Because if you look, Ry, at a with that? Because if you look, Ry, at a with that? Because if you look, Ry, at a lot of the moral failure you and I have lot of the moral failure you and I have lot of the moral failure you and I have talked about that that's happened to a talked about that that's happened to a talked about that that's happened to a lot of well-known pastors, not an lot of well-known pastors, not an lot of well-known pastors, not an excuse, um, not a justification, excuse, um, not a justification, excuse, um, not a justification, but usually you still find underneath but usually you still find underneath but usually you still find underneath that some kind of brokenness that that some kind of brokenness that that some kind of brokenness that happened early in life, whether that was happened early in life, whether that was happened early in life, whether that was with a parent or or something that with a parent or or something that with a parent or or something that happened. And obviously in your 70s now, happened. And obviously in your 70s now, happened. And obviously in your 70s now, you processed all of that. You're you processed all of that. You're you processed all of that. You're leading well. Um, I'd love to know for leading well. Um, I'd love to know for leading well. Um, I'd love to know for the leaders listening when that sort of the leaders listening when that sort of the leaders listening when that sort of came on your radar screen, how you came on your radar screen, how you came on your radar screen, how you processed it, uh, just what did that processed it, uh, just what did that processed it, uh, just what did that look like for you as you process sort of look like for you as you process sort of look like for you as you process sort of the losses of a tough childhood? the losses of a tough childhood? the losses of a tough childhood? Well, the two most helpful things are, Well, the two most helpful things are, Well, the two most helpful things are, um, I went and got some counseling in um, I went and got some counseling in um, I went and got some counseling in Southern California and that really Southern California and that really Southern California and that really helps. However, pick a really good helps. However, pick a really good helps. However, pick a really good counselor. Okay. Like counselor. Okay. Like counselor. Okay. Like Yes. Yeah. They're not all the same. Yes. Yeah. They're not all the same. Yes. Yeah. They're not all the same. They are not all the same. They are not all the same. They are not all the same. um get find somebody to get some um get find somebody to get some um get find somebody to get some recommendations. Um and then I've and I recommendations. Um and then I've and I recommendations. Um and then I've and I have somebody here I check in with um have somebody here I check in with um have somebody here I check in with um when I need to check in.

when I need to check in. when I need to check in. So you're still going. So you're still going. So you're still going. Oh yeah. And it but it's not now it's Oh yeah. And it but it's not now it's Oh yeah. And it but it's not now it's hit and miss. hit and miss. hit and miss. Yeah, sure. Me too. I I tune up. Yeah, sure. Me too. I I tune up. Yeah, sure. Me too. I I tune up. I I go and see I go and see the same I I go and see I go and see the same I I go and see I go and see the same counselor. Um the however um every counselor. Um the however um every counselor. Um the however um every leadership conference I've spoken at leadership conference I've spoken at leadership conference I've spoken at I've whether it was like I just did a I've whether it was like I just did a I've whether it was like I just did a day with CEOs and then day with senior day with CEOs and then day with senior day with CEOs and then day with senior pastors. I told them the same thing. I pastors. I told them the same thing. I pastors. I told them the same thing. I said said said because I think this is as important as because I think this is as important as because I think this is as important as background wounds. background wounds. background wounds. Every one of us has two levels. Okay. Every one of us has two levels. Okay. Every one of us has two levels. Okay. You have a challenge level and a support You have a challenge level and a support You have a challenge level and a support level. Okay. And and in other words and level. Okay. And and in other words and level. Okay. And and in other words and the most important thing about you is the most important thing about you is the most important thing about you is the interaction of those two levels. the interaction of those two levels. the interaction of those two levels. Okay. And when what's happened as most Okay. And when what's happened as most Okay. And when what's happened as most people matter of fact almost all pastors people matter of fact almost all pastors people matter of fact almost all pastors almost all CEOs what's happened is their almost all CEOs what's happened is their almost all CEOs what's happened is their challenge level has gone up. Okay. And challenge level has gone up. Okay. And challenge level has gone up. Okay. And COVID hit and everybody's challenge COVID hit and everybody's challenge COVID hit and everybody's challenge level went skyhigh. level went skyhigh. level went skyhigh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But their support level didn't or it But their support level didn't or it But their support level didn't or it actually dropped. And the distance actually dropped. And the distance actually dropped. And the distance between your level of challenge and your between your level of challenge and your between your level of challenge and your level of support, that's destructive level of support, that's destructive level of support, that's destructive stress.

stress. stress. And almost almost all affairs on the And almost almost all affairs on the And almost almost all affairs on the part of especially men, they're not part of especially men, they're not part of especially men, they're not love. It's inappropriate stress relief. love. It's inappropriate stress relief. love. It's inappropriate stress relief. Almost all alcohol stuff that gets Almost all alcohol stuff that gets Almost all alcohol stuff that gets triggered, a lot of it is inappropriate triggered, a lot of it is inappropriate triggered, a lot of it is inappropriate stress relief. stress relief. stress relief. Almost all drug abuse, almost all of Almost all drug abuse, almost all of Almost all drug abuse, almost all of that kind of excitement thing. I need, that kind of excitement thing. I need, that kind of excitement thing. I need, you know, I need too much adventure or you know, I need too much adventure or you know, I need too much adventure or whatever it is is inappropriate stress whatever it is is inappropriate stress whatever it is is inappropriate stress relief. And the problem is this. Like relief. And the problem is this. Like relief. And the problem is this. Like Americans tried to solve that for nine Americans tried to solve that for nine Americans tried to solve that for nine straight months by resigning their job straight months by resigning their job straight months by resigning their job in record numbers. in record numbers. in record numbers. They couldn't raise their level of They couldn't raise their level of They couldn't raise their level of support. So they just dropped their support. So they just dropped their support. So they just dropped their level of challenge only to wake up and level of challenge only to wake up and level of challenge only to wake up and go, I got a new set of challenges, go, I got a new set of challenges, go, I got a new set of challenges, unemployment. Okay. I think the only way unemployment. Okay. I think the only way unemployment. Okay. I think the only way to do that is if you can lower your to do that is if you can lower your to do that is if you can lower your challenges some, but we've got to raise challenges some, but we've got to raise challenges some, but we've got to raise our level of support. our level of support. our level of support. I have not heard that framing and so I have not heard that framing and so I have not heard that framing and so much makes sense the moment you much makes sense the moment you much makes sense the moment you articulated that articulated that articulated that somewhere I come back and people want to somewhere I come back and people want to somewhere I come back and people want to have that conversation. have that conversation. have that conversation. Yeah. So your support is counselors. Who Yeah. So your support is counselors. Who Yeah. So your support is counselors. Who else do you process with?

else do you process with? else do you process with? I we you surround yourself I we you surround yourself I we you surround yourself with say if you're putting a staff with say if you're putting a staff with say if you're putting a staff together together together you need a staff that has your back. you need a staff that has your back. you need a staff that has your back. Yeah. the um matter of fact, I would say Yeah. the um matter of fact, I would say Yeah. the um matter of fact, I would say this. If you're senior, if you're a this. If you're senior, if you're a this. If you're senior, if you're a senior pastor, if you have staff people senior pastor, if you have staff people senior pastor, if you have staff people and you're paying them and they don't and you're paying them and they don't and you're paying them and they don't have your back, fire them. You can get have your back, fire them. You can get have your back, fire them. You can get people who don't have your back for people who don't have your back for people who don't have your back for free. free. free. I want to walk into a room and go, I want to walk into a room and go, I want to walk into a room and go, they're here. I want I want I want them. they're here. I want I want I want them. they're here. I want I want I want them. Matter of fact, one of our pastors, um Matter of fact, one of our pastors, um Matter of fact, one of our pastors, um Jason Kane, said to me a while back, he Jason Kane, said to me a while back, he Jason Kane, said to me a while back, he goes, "I love being here because you goes, "I love being here because you goes, "I love being here because you love us." It was one of the coolest love us." It was one of the coolest love us." It was one of the coolest things anybody's ever said to me. But I things anybody's ever said to me. But I things anybody's ever said to me. But I feel the same from him and I feel the feel the same from him and I feel the feel the same from him and I feel the same from these folks. If we're in a same from these folks. If we're in a same from these folks. If we're in a room, it feels like we're in the room room, it feels like we're in the room room, it feels like we're in the room and we're good. And I'll never forget co and we're good. And I'll never forget co and we're good. And I'll never forget co blew that apart some. And two years ago blew that apart some. And two years ago blew that apart some. And two years ago at our pastor retreat down in Palm at our pastor retreat down in Palm at our pastor retreat down in Palm Springs, it all came back together. And Springs, it all came back together. And Springs, it all came back together. And were in tears looking at each other were in tears looking at each other were in tears looking at each other going, "All right, we're back."

going, "All right, we're back." going, "All right, we're back." And I don't know that they would put it And I don't know that they would put it And I don't know that they would put it this way, but basically what they just this way, but basically what they just this way, but basically what they just felt like was the entire floor of felt like was the entire floor of felt like was the entire floor of support just went up a whole lot of support just went up a whole lot of support just went up a whole lot of notches. And and so so some of it is notches. And and so so some of it is notches. And and so so some of it is matter of fact, I also think you're matter of fact, I also think you're matter of fact, I also think you're going who who is it that drains you? going who who is it that drains you? going who who is it that drains you? Spend less time with them. What is it Spend less time with them. What is it Spend less time with them. What is it that drains you? Spend less time doing that drains you? Spend less time doing that drains you? Spend less time doing that. Um the matter of fact church that. Um the matter of fact church that. Um the matter of fact church boards now church boards have a lot of boards now church boards have a lot of boards now church boards have a lot of different responsibilities. Most church different responsibilities. Most church different responsibilities. Most church boards need to wake up and say one of boards need to wake up and say one of boards need to wake up and say one of our primary jobs is to be a support our primary jobs is to be a support our primary jobs is to be a support mechanism for the senior pastor. mechanism for the senior pastor. mechanism for the senior pastor. So we it's funny we didn't have a board So we it's funny we didn't have a board So we it's funny we didn't have a board like that when co broke out. We do now. like that when co broke out. We do now. like that when co broke out. We do now. I've been on three retreats with our I've been on three retreats with our I've been on three retreats with our board um in the last season. I'd go on board um in the last season. I'd go on board um in the last season. I'd go on vacation with any of them. vacation with any of them. vacation with any of them. H how do you do that? I want to I want H how do you do that? I want to I want H how do you do that? I want to I want to come back to the 10-year-old thing. to come back to the 10-year-old thing. to come back to the 10-year-old thing. How do you do that though and still have How do you do that though and still have How do you do that though and still have accountability where the board can call accountability where the board can call accountability where the board can call you out because I find we can almost you out because I find we can almost you out because I find we can almost gravitate to two polls and you lead a gravitate to two polls and you lead a gravitate to two polls and you lead a very very large church. Tens of very very large church. Tens of very very large church. Tens of thousands of people call it home, one of thousands of people call it home, one of thousands of people call it home, one of the largest in America. But you can get the largest in America. But you can get the largest in America. But you can get your buddy club that just supports you your buddy club that just supports you your buddy club that just supports you and says yes or you can get the and says yes or you can get the and says yes or you can get the oppositional hermeneutic of suspicion oppositional hermeneutic of suspicion oppositional hermeneutic of suspicion board that challenges you at every board that challenges you at every board that challenges you at every decision.

decision. decision. Both have strong weaknesses. So, how do Both have strong weaknesses. So, how do Both have strong weaknesses. So, how do you have that support but still keep the you have that support but still keep the you have that support but still keep the challenge or is that challenge part of a challenge or is that challenge part of a challenge or is that challenge part of a different function from someone else? different function from someone else? different function from someone else? Gary, that's really smart. You you need Gary, that's really smart. You you need Gary, that's really smart. You you need a the board is responsible to guard the a the board is responsible to guard the a the board is responsible to guard the core values of the church for core values of the church for core values of the church for 100%. Yeah. The mission, right? Like you 100%. Yeah. The mission, right? Like you 100%. Yeah. The mission, right? Like you could go off the rails and then it's the could go off the rails and then it's the could go off the rails and then it's the board's job. board's job. board's job. Yes. It's responsible to guard the Yes. It's responsible to guard the Yes. It's responsible to guard the culture now. It's responsible to make culture now. It's responsible to make culture now. It's responsible to make sure the ministry is solvent. It's sure the ministry is solvent. It's sure the ministry is solvent. It's responsible for financial health. It's responsible for financial health. It's responsible for financial health. It's responsible for theolog responsible for theolog responsible for theolog which means we need really competent and which means we need really competent and which means we need really competent and strong people on the board. Okay. Yes. strong people on the board. Okay. Yes. strong people on the board. Okay. Yes. However, there are people that are However, there are people that are However, there are people that are strong and oppositional and there are strong and oppositional and there are strong and oppositional and there are people that are strong and supportive. people that are strong and supportive. people that are strong and supportive. Um the the price tag these days for Um the the price tag these days for Um the the price tag these days for people uh is oppositional people. people uh is oppositional people. people uh is oppositional people. They're They're They're it's the weight's too heavy on leaders it's the weight's too heavy on leaders it's the weight's too heavy on leaders these days. And these days. And these days. And they I did an interview with um Henry they I did an interview with um Henry they I did an interview with um Henry Cloud. Cloud. Cloud. Yeah. Said, "Where are people Yeah. Said, "Where are people Yeah. Said, "Where are people psychologically?" And he was brilliant.

psychologically?" And he was brilliant. psychologically?" And he was brilliant. He said, "There matter of fact, this was He said, "There matter of fact, this was He said, "There matter of fact, this was gamechanging when I realized this." He gamechanging when I realized this." He gamechanging when I realized this." He said, "Nobody ever put it better than said, "Nobody ever put it better than said, "Nobody ever put it better than Proverbs. They're either wise, foolish, Proverbs. They're either wise, foolish, Proverbs. They're either wise, foolish, or evil." or evil." or evil." And I said, "How do you attract that?" And I said, "How do you attract that?" And I said, "How do you attract that?" And he said, "Well, wise people are And he said, "Well, wise people are And he said, "Well, wise people are humble, teachable, and they're always humble, teachable, and they're always humble, teachable, and they're always getting better." getting better." getting better." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fools respond to correction or anything Fools respond to correction or anything Fools respond to correction or anything with blame and attack. with blame and attack. with blame and attack. And he said, "And evil people seek to be And he said, "And evil people seek to be And he said, "And evil people seek to be destructive." destructive." destructive." Yeah. They're out to hurt you. Yeah. They're out to hurt you. Yeah. They're out to hurt you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. One of my favorite framings, the world One of my favorite framings, the world One of my favorite framings, the world is three kinds of people. I think that's is three kinds of people. I think that's is three kinds of people. I think that's from necessary endings. from necessary endings. from necessary endings. And and and I think what happened is co And and and I think what happened is co And and and I think what happened is co and all the other pandemics that went and all the other pandemics that went and all the other pandemics that went with it. And politics now and fractioned with it. And politics now and fractioned with it. And politics now and fractioned political parties um have a whole lot of political parties um have a whole lot of political parties um have a whole lot of people in church have dropped a half to people in church have dropped a half to people in church have dropped a half to a full category. So wise people, humble, a full category. So wise people, humble, a full category. So wise people, humble, teachable, have basically been in blame teachable, have basically been in blame teachable, have basically been in blame and attack mode. And a lot of that gets and attack mode. And a lot of that gets and attack mode. And a lot of that gets focused at the pastor. And then blame focused at the pastor. And then blame focused at the pastor. And then blame and attack people. A lot of those folks and attack people. A lot of those folks and attack people. A lot of those folks who were basically fools, they have who were basically fools, they have who were basically fools, they have become evil. And now they're just trying become evil. And now they're just trying become evil. And now they're just trying to be destructive.

to be destructive. to be destructive. Which means for our pastors or leaders, Which means for our pastors or leaders, Which means for our pastors or leaders, for your own emotional health, you have for your own emotional health, you have for your own emotional health, you have got to figure out how do I raise my got to figure out how do I raise my got to figure out how do I raise my level of support at a board level, at a level of support at a board level, at a level of support at a board level, at a staff level, at a friendship level. Um, staff level, at a friendship level. Um, staff level, at a friendship level. Um, one of the reasons I'm glad you're in one of the reasons I'm glad you're in one of the reasons I'm glad you're in Car's podcast is it's a massive dose of Car's podcast is it's a massive dose of Car's podcast is it's a massive dose of support. Okay? Um, and anything you can support. Okay? Um, and anything you can support. Okay? Um, and anything you can do to raise your level of support is do to raise your level of support is do to raise your level of support is going to make you better, make you be going to make you better, make you be going to make you better, make you be better, and then you'll be less less better, and then you'll be less less better, and then you'll be less less susceptible to all the toxic stuff that susceptible to all the toxic stuff that susceptible to all the toxic stuff that floods into our lives when that gap is floods into our lives when that gap is floods into our lives when that gap is too big. too big. too big. Had you not had that level of support, Had you not had that level of support, Had you not had that level of support, what do you think your story would have what do you think your story would have what do you think your story would have been over the last 30, 40 years? been over the last 30, 40 years? been over the last 30, 40 years? I have no Yeah, it's funny. I have no I have no Yeah, it's funny. I have no I have no Yeah, it's funny. I have no idea. idea. idea. Um, Um, Um, I think I would have been as I think I would have been an as I think I would have been an emotionally unhealthy, successful emotionally unhealthy, successful emotionally unhealthy, successful businessman. So, I'd probably more money probably have a lot more money, but I probably have a lot more money, but I think I think that's a great question, think I think that's a great question, think I think that's a great question, Carrie. Um, I would I don't think I Carrie. Um, I would I don't think I Carrie. Um, I would I don't think I would have gone down the road of alcohol would have gone down the road of alcohol would have gone down the road of alcohol cuz I watched what it did. Okay. Yeah, cuz I watched what it did. Okay. Yeah, cuz I watched what it did. Okay. Yeah, I think I think I think though though though my dad's problem with alcohol wasn't my dad's problem with alcohol wasn't my dad's problem with alcohol wasn't ultimately a problem with alcohol. It ultimately a problem with alcohol. It ultimately a problem with alcohol. It was medicating pain.

was medicating pain. was medicating pain. And so, and I think my dad had an And so, and I think my dad had an And so, and I think my dad had an addictive behavior and so did my mom, addictive behavior and so did my mom, addictive behavior and so did my mom, which means I would have gotten addicted which means I would have gotten addicted which means I would have gotten addicted to things that were probably far less to things that were probably far less to things that were probably far less healthy. Okay. Um, you know, but it healthy. Okay. Um, you know, but it healthy. Okay. Um, you know, but it wouldn't have been alcohol. Probably wouldn't have been alcohol. Probably wouldn't have been alcohol. Probably would have been something else. would have been something else. would have been something else. It's interesting. You know, you talk It's interesting. You know, you talk It's interesting. You know, you talk about successful business person. Part about successful business person. Part about successful business person. Part of my call to ministry started with a of my call to ministry started with a of my call to ministry started with a supernatural vision at 3:00 one supernatural vision at 3:00 one supernatural vision at 3:00 one afternoon. Sounds like it's out of the afternoon. Sounds like it's out of the afternoon. Sounds like it's out of the book of Acts, but I was at a law firm. I book of Acts, but I was at a law firm. I book of Acts, but I was at a law firm. I was 24. Saw a vision of myself in a was 24. Saw a vision of myself in a was 24. Saw a vision of myself in a daydream. Like literally, I was awake, daydream. Like literally, I was awake, daydream. Like literally, I was awake, but I saw this. It was supernatural. 44, but I saw this. It was supernatural. 44, but I saw this. It was supernatural. 44, 20 years down the road, very successful, 20 years down the road, very successful, 20 years down the road, very successful, making a ton of money and spiritually making a ton of money and spiritually making a ton of money and spiritually and morally bankrupt. And I knew in that and morally bankrupt. And I knew in that and morally bankrupt. And I knew in that moment law was not going to be my moment law was not going to be my moment law was not going to be my future. But I didn't know what was. And future. But I didn't know what was. And future. But I didn't know what was. And I walked to another office in the firm, I walked to another office in the firm, I walked to another office in the firm, the library, looked down the window, the library, looked down the window, the library, looked down the window, there was the church I grew up in in my there was the church I grew up in in my there was the church I grew up in in my hometown, and I felt the voice tell me, hometown, and I felt the voice tell me, hometown, and I felt the voice tell me, "You're supposed to be in there." And so "You're supposed to be in there." And so "You're supposed to be in there." And so interesting, but it would have been a interesting, but it would have been a interesting, but it would have been a very similar thing for me. Very very similar thing for me. Very very similar thing for me. Very successful, I think, but very bankrupt successful, I think, but very bankrupt successful, I think, but very bankrupt in the end by the grace of God. So your in the end by the grace of God. So your in the end by the grace of God. So your dad, if I got this right, the story dad, if I got this right, the story dad, if I got this right, the story right, your grandfather shot himself, right, your grandfather shot himself, right, your grandfather shot himself, killed himself when your dad was 10.

killed himself when your dad was 10. killed himself when your dad was 10. Yep. Yep. Yep. At 10, your dad goes off the rails and At 10, your dad goes off the rails and At 10, your dad goes off the rails and becomes a raging alcoholic. becomes a raging alcoholic. becomes a raging alcoholic. When you were 10 and you have four When you were 10 and you have four When you were 10 and you have four children, two sons, two daughters, children, two sons, two daughters, children, two sons, two daughters, correct? correct? correct? They're 10. What changes for you? Um my They're 10. What changes for you? Um my They're 10. What changes for you? Um my my intentionality with them went skyhigh my intentionality with them went skyhigh my intentionality with them went skyhigh from them. from them. from them. You broke the generational curse. You broke the generational curse. You broke the generational curse. Exactly. Which which you have to and um Exactly. Which which you have to and um Exactly. Which which you have to and um and and frankly to be really honest um I and and frankly to be really honest um I and and frankly to be really honest um I was a youth pastor for years. I never was a youth pastor for years. I never was a youth pastor for years. I never wanted to be a senior pastor. I would wanted to be a senior pastor. I would wanted to be a senior pastor. I would way rather train leaders to be a senior way rather train leaders to be a senior way rather train leaders to be a senior pastor. So I did not want to be a senior pastor. So I did not want to be a senior pastor. So I did not want to be a senior pastor. Okay. Um, and so I did youth pastor. Okay. Um, and so I did youth pastor. Okay. Um, and so I did youth ministry for a bunch of years, left ministry for a bunch of years, left ministry for a bunch of years, left that, taught in two graduate schools in that, taught in two graduate schools in that, taught in two graduate schools in Chicago and a and a and then a college Chicago and a and a and then a college Chicago and a and a and then a college and then and then came back to and then and then came back to and then and then came back to California and pretty much went I'm just California and pretty much went I'm just California and pretty much went I'm just going to train leaders and encourage going to train leaders and encourage going to train leaders and encourage leaders and and so I never wanted to be leaders and and so I never wanted to be leaders and and so I never wanted to be a pastor. Um, and I forget what the a pastor. Um, and I forget what the a pastor. Um, and I forget what the original question was. What? No, just original question was. What? No, just original question was. What? No, just keep going. It was about about what you keep going. It was about about what you keep going. It was about about what you changed when your children turned 10.

changed when your children turned 10. changed when your children turned 10. Yeah. What what changed was this? I Yeah. What what changed was this? I Yeah. What what changed was this? I went, I'm going to be way more went, I'm going to be way more went, I'm going to be way more intentional about this. The first 10 intentional about this. The first 10 intentional about this. The first 10 years, okay, it was easy. I just had a years, okay, it was easy. I just had a years, okay, it was easy. I just had a blast being with him. Okay. blast being with him. Okay. blast being with him. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then on I went, okay, this could be a Then on I went, okay, this could be a Then on I went, okay, this could be a different ball game. Okay. But I also different ball game. Okay. But I also different ball game. Okay. But I also had done enough stuff on parenting had done enough stuff on parenting had done enough stuff on parenting stages like you know to be for you know stages like you know to be for you know stages like you know to be for you know it takes three stages to be to get into it takes three stages to be to get into it takes three stages to be to get into full childhood and I think it's the same full childhood and I think it's the same full childhood and I think it's the same three stages repeat to get into full three stages repeat to get into full three stages repeat to get into full adulthood. Okay. And so I'd been in adulthood. Okay. And so I'd been in adulthood. Okay. And so I'd been in enough stuff where I knew sort of enough stuff where I knew sort of enough stuff where I knew sort of adolescent development stuff because I adolescent development stuff because I adolescent development stuff because I used to teach it that I went okay used to teach it that I went okay used to teach it that I went okay they're going to be in this stage which they're going to be in this stage which they're going to be in this stage which means I need to be I need to do this means I need to be I need to do this means I need to be I need to do this during this stage. M during this stage. M during this stage. M um and then and the main one for me was um and then and the main one for me was um and then and the main one for me was um my dad ended up living a life I um my dad ended up living a life I um my dad ended up living a life I didn't want. didn't want. didn't want. And And And the I'm working on three parenting books the I'm working on three parenting books the I'm working on three parenting books right now. All of them short. Um all of right now. All of them short. Um all of right now. All of them short. Um all of them under the banner of raising G-rated them under the banner of raising G-rated them under the banner of raising G-rated kids in an X-rated world. Um the the kids in an X-rated world. Um the the kids in an X-rated world. Um the the title of the last book is is going to be title of the last book is is going to be title of the last book is is going to be become the parent your kids want to be become the parent your kids want to be become the parent your kids want to be around. M around. M around. M and so I've been talking to a whole and so I've been talking to a whole and so I've been talking to a whole bunch of dads whose kids love them and bunch of dads whose kids love them and bunch of dads whose kids love them and flock to them um including older kids.

flock to them um including older kids. flock to them um including older kids. And one guy told me he said, "Oh, here And one guy told me he said, "Oh, here And one guy told me he said, "Oh, here my goal was this. I wanted to live a my goal was this. I wanted to live a my goal was this. I wanted to live a life my kids envied." life my kids envied." life my kids envied." And what a genius parenting goal. And um And what a genius parenting goal. And um And what a genius parenting goal. And um and so I pretty much went I'm going to and so I pretty much went I'm going to and so I pretty much went I'm going to be really intentional. So, for example, be really intentional. So, for example, be really intentional. So, for example, um if a teenager goes off the rails, um if a teenager goes off the rails, um if a teenager goes off the rails, they go off the rails for the most part they go off the rails for the most part they go off the rails for the most part their sophomore and junior year, not their sophomore and junior year, not their sophomore and junior year, not their freshman year. It's too new. They their freshman year. It's too new. They their freshman year. It's too new. They don't have a driver's license. And not don't have a driver's license. And not don't have a driver's license. And not their senior year, their senior year, their senior year, their senior year, their senior year, their senior year, they pretty much go, "Uh, you know what? they pretty much go, "Uh, you know what? they pretty much go, "Uh, you know what? Why? Why screw up my life to please a Why? Why screw up my life to please a Why? Why screw up my life to please a bunch of people I'm never going to see bunch of people I'm never going to see bunch of people I'm never going to see again?" So, it's sophomore and junior again?" So, it's sophomore and junior again?" So, it's sophomore and junior years. So, I decided with my kids, like years. So, I decided with my kids, like years. So, I decided with my kids, like for example, my daughters, okay, their for example, my daughters, okay, their for example, my daughters, okay, their junior year, Carol and I took them out junior year, Carol and I took them out junior year, Carol and I took them out of school for six weeks. The school of school for six weeks. The school of school for six weeks. The school freaked out. I was like, "Look, they're freaked out. I was like, "Look, they're freaked out. I was like, "Look, they're our kids." our kids." our kids." And your daughters are twins, by the And your daughters are twins, by the And your daughters are twins, by the way. They're the same age. way. They're the same age. way. They're the same age. So, took them out of school and went to So, took them out of school and went to So, took them out of school and went to we went to Africa to Kenya and did about we went to Africa to Kenya and did about we went to Africa to Kenya and did about a week and a half missions thing there.

a week and a half missions thing there. a week and a half missions thing there. And then we went and we went to Germany, And then we went and we went to Germany, And then we went and we went to Germany, visited Scott at a Bible college there. visited Scott at a Bible college there. visited Scott at a Bible college there. And then we went to Paris and toured all And then we went to Paris and toured all And then we went to Paris and toured all the stuff and then went to Germany and the stuff and then went to Germany and the stuff and then went to Germany and went to concentration camps and all of went to concentration camps and all of went to concentration camps and all of this kind of stuff. And then we and went this kind of stuff. And then we and went this kind of stuff. And then we and went to London. We had an absolute ball for to London. We had an absolute ball for to London. We had an absolute ball for five weeks. They were we got six weeks five weeks. They were we got six weeks five weeks. They were we got six weeks off and then we came back instead of off and then we came back instead of off and then we came back instead of putting them back in school. They had putting them back in school. They had putting them back in school. They had gotten all their homework from their gotten all their homework from their gotten all their homework from their teachers. We went to Newport Beach and teachers. We went to Newport Beach and teachers. We went to Newport Beach and just sat sat at the beach. They did all just sat sat at the beach. They did all just sat sat at the beach. They did all their homework at the beach while their their homework at the beach while their their homework at the beach while their friends were all sweating stuff. And um friends were all sweating stuff. And um friends were all sweating stuff. And um we had a blast. Lifetime full of we had a blast. Lifetime full of we had a blast. Lifetime full of memories. an absolute ball cuz I I never memories. an absolute ball cuz I I never memories. an absolute ball cuz I I never explained this to them. I could now. I explained this to them. I could now. I explained this to them. I could now. I went I wanted to break the cycle of peer went I wanted to break the cycle of peer went I wanted to break the cycle of peer pressure either their sophomore or pressure either their sophomore or pressure either their sophomore or junior year. And so what I was doing I junior year. And so what I was doing I junior year. And so what I was doing I was going if they grow up fast it's was going if they grow up fast it's was going if they grow up fast it's going to be sophomore year. If they're a going to be sophomore year. If they're a going to be sophomore year. If they're a little slower it's going to be their little slower it's going to be their little slower it's going to be their junior year. So it was their junior junior year. So it was their junior junior year. So it was their junior year. We had a blast. The school freaked year. We had a blast. The school freaked year. We had a blast. The school freaked out but they still managed to graduate out but they still managed to graduate out but they still managed to graduate and go to college. So they um but some and go to college. So they um but some and go to college. So they um but some of that was I just went I wanted to be of that was I just went I wanted to be of that was I just went I wanted to be really intentional about what we did as really intentional about what we did as really intentional about what we did as a family especially post 10.

a family especially post 10. a family especially post 10. So So So I know your daughters better than I know I know your daughters better than I know I know your daughters better than I know your sons, but I've met I think all of your sons, but I've met I think all of your sons, but I've met I think all of your kids and Christy in particular I your kids and Christy in particular I your kids and Christy in particular I know well because Joey and Christy are know well because Joey and Christy are know well because Joey and Christy are friends. But um and boy they love you. friends. But um and boy they love you. friends. But um and boy they love you. Oh it's so mutual. what Oh it's so mutual. what Oh it's so mutual. what um um um like your daughters seem to really enjoy like your daughters seem to really enjoy like your daughters seem to really enjoy hanging around you and I've just seen it hanging around you and I've just seen it hanging around you and I've just seen it behind the scenes, you know, when we're behind the scenes, you know, when we're behind the scenes, you know, when we're in California together, we've been up in California together, we've been up in California together, we've been up here together. Um what do you think here together. Um what do you think here together. Um what do you think makes that cuz there are parents who makes that cuz there are parents who makes that cuz there are parents who would be like, I would love for that to would be like, I would love for that to would be like, I would love for that to happen when I have daughters in their happen when I have daughters in their happen when I have daughters in their 20s and 30s, sons in their 20s and 30s. 20s and 30s, sons in their 20s and 30s. 20s and 30s, sons in their 20s and 30s. What are some of the ingredients for the What are some of the ingredients for the What are some of the ingredients for the young parents? These could be decisions young parents? These could be decisions young parents? These could be decisions you made like obviously in their you made like obviously in their you made like obviously in their sophomore year or decisions you made sophomore year or decisions you made sophomore year or decisions you made when they were little girls or in their when they were little girls or in their when they were little girls or in their 20s that set up the conditions for that 20s that set up the conditions for that 20s that set up the conditions for that to be true at this stage in life. Um first of all you're right I'm Um first of all you're right I'm number one is um I have a lifelong number one is um I have a lifelong number one is um I have a lifelong prayer that all four of my kids turn out prayer that all four of my kids turn out prayer that all four of my kids turn out like mom and so good. She's amazing.

like mom and so good. She's amazing. like mom and so good. She's amazing. Okay. Um, and we are a really good Okay. Um, and we are a really good Okay. Um, and we are a really good tandem. Um, tandem. Um, tandem. Um, the the the but they Wow, that's a great question. but they Wow, that's a great question. but they Wow, that's a great question. Um, one of our goals is to stay Um, one of our goals is to stay Um, one of our goals is to stay connected. Okay. Like I'm going or like connected. Okay. Like I'm going or like connected. Okay. Like I'm going or like no matter what a parent's going through, no matter what a parent's going through, no matter what a parent's going through, kids walking away from the Christian kids walking away from the Christian kids walking away from the Christian faith, leaving church, doing drugs, faith, leaving church, doing drugs, faith, leaving church, doing drugs, whatever it is, I just have one whatever it is, I just have one whatever it is, I just have one response. Maintain the relationship. response. Maintain the relationship. response. Maintain the relationship. Maintain the relationship. Okay. And so Maintain the relationship. Okay. And so Maintain the relationship. Okay. And so and so like this week our my son Mark and so like this week our my son Mark and so like this week our my son Mark his wife Gia um they're incredible. Um his wife Gia um they're incredible. Um his wife Gia um they're incredible. Um the matter of fact when when we met her the matter of fact when when we met her the matter of fact when when we met her I took Mark out to dinner and I said hey I took Mark out to dinner and I said hey I took Mark out to dinner and I said hey look for the record she's the closest look for the record she's the closest look for the record she's the closest thing to your mom I've ever seen in my thing to your mom I've ever seen in my thing to your mom I've ever seen in my life. I said I said to him I said don't life. I said I said to him I said don't life. I said I said to him I said don't screw this up cuz we're keeping her. screw this up cuz we're keeping her. screw this up cuz we're keeping her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're amazing. And so we they came They're amazing. And so we they came They're amazing. And so we they came over. We had dinner with them and then over. We had dinner with them and then over. We had dinner with them and then Scott and Kayla dropped all the Scott and Kayla dropped all the Scott and Kayla dropped all the grandkids off last night and they go be grandkids off last night and they go be grandkids off last night and they go be you know and and then our daughter you know and and then our daughter you know and and then our daughter they've I thought you raise kids and they've I thought you raise kids and they've I thought you raise kids and lose them. That happens a lot of times lose them. That happens a lot of times lose them. That happens a lot of times cuz they should be on their way to their cuz they should be on their way to their cuz they should be on their way to their lives through our lives. Okay.

lives through our lives. Okay. lives through our lives. Okay. However, However, However, we did enough maintenance of we did enough maintenance of we did enough maintenance of relationships where they were we just relationships where they were we just relationships where they were we just have had a blast. So like um and so all have had a blast. So like um and so all have had a blast. So like um and so all of them cycled back of them cycled back of them cycled back and they all now live near us and I and they all now live near us and I and they all now live near us and I never saw this coming cuz I thought you never saw this coming cuz I thought you never saw this coming cuz I thought you raise them lose them. We raised them, raise them lose them. We raised them, raise them lose them. We raised them, lost them, they all cycled back and they lost them, they all cycled back and they lost them, they all cycled back and they become I get choked up talking about become I get choked up talking about become I get choked up talking about this. They become part of our friend this. They become part of our friend this. They become part of our friend group. group. group. They're a blast. And so a lot of nights They're a blast. And so a lot of nights They're a blast. And so a lot of nights gets phone calls. All right, what are we gets phone calls. All right, what are we gets phone calls. All right, what are we doing for dinner? Which means what are doing for dinner? Which means what are doing for dinner? Which means what are you buying us for dinner? you buying us for dinner? you buying us for dinner? Right. Right. And but it's it's it's a Right. Right. And but it's it's it's a Right. Right. And but it's it's it's a pretty cool thing. Some of it was pretty cool thing. Some of it was pretty cool thing. Some of it was intentionality. Like I I I a intentionality. Like I I I a intentionality. Like I I I a psychologist told me one time, most psychologist told me one time, most psychologist told me one time, most girls get the their self-image from the girls get the their self-image from the girls get the their self-image from the opposite sex parent. opposite sex parent. opposite sex parent. And so my goal was just to raise two And so my goal was just to raise two And so my goal was just to raise two daughters that thought they were the daughters that thought they were the daughters that thought they were the greatest human beings in the world and greatest human beings in the world and greatest human beings in the world and built a healthy self-image. And so we built a healthy self-image. And so we built a healthy self-image. And so we went on daddy daughter date nights all went on daddy daughter date nights all went on daddy daughter date nights all the time. And and and then when they the time. And and and then when they the time. And and and then when they were in high school, we did the same were in high school, we did the same were in high school, we did the same thing. and they went to college and I thing. and they went to college and I thing. and they went to college and I would fly down about every couple months would fly down about every couple months would fly down about every couple months and we'd go out to Palm Springs or and we'd go out to Palm Springs or and we'd go out to Palm Springs or Newport Beach for a weekend and I just Newport Beach for a weekend and I just Newport Beach for a weekend and I just that maintained the relationship at well that maintained the relationship at well that maintained the relationship at well my dad maintained a relationship until my dad maintained a relationship until my dad maintained a relationship until he was 10. He dropped it. A lot of he was 10. He dropped it. A lot of he was 10. He dropped it. A lot of parents do that until the teenage years parents do that until the teenage years parents do that until the teenage years and then and then and then yeah 18 it's like well now what yeah 18 it's like well now what yeah 18 it's like well now what for me I just went let's maintain the for me I just went let's maintain the for me I just went let's maintain the relationship but it's just got to be relationship but it's just got to be relationship but it's just got to be really enjoyable

really enjoyable really enjoyable for you and Carol reversing a 140year for you and Carol reversing a 140year for you and Carol reversing a 140year curse in the family 42 years married. curse in the family 42 years married. curse in the family 42 years married. Yep. Yep. Yep. What's made it work? What's made it work? What's made it work? Carol. Carol. Carol. Okay, that's fair. Okay, that's fair. Okay, that's fair. I think there's something to be said for I think there's something to be said for I think there's something to be said for there is no escape hatch. there is no escape hatch. there is no escape hatch. And you did you make that decision early And you did you make that decision early And you did you make that decision early on? on? on? Uh now I met Christ in the in the at Uh now I met Christ in the in the at Uh now I met Christ in the in the at Lake Avenue Congregational. Lake Avenue Congregational. Lake Avenue Congregational. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then bunch of us started this Bible And then bunch of us started this Bible And then bunch of us started this Bible study in this town called Darty and it study in this town called Darty and it study in this town called Darty and it blew up and became a church and it was blew up and became a church and it was blew up and became a church and it was awesome. was a church of about 100 awesome. was a church of about 100 awesome. was a church of about 100 people maybe 110 on a outreach weekend people maybe 110 on a outreach weekend people maybe 110 on a outreach weekend and it never got bigger than that but it and it never got bigger than that but it and it never got bigger than that but it was the greatest collection of people. I was the greatest collection of people. I was the greatest collection of people. I was there for like seven years. Never was there for like seven years. Never was there for like seven years. Never saw a divorce. Not one divorce. May have saw a divorce. Not one divorce. May have saw a divorce. Not one divorce. May have been maybe been 10 years. And um and and been maybe been 10 years. And um and and been maybe been 10 years. And um and and so it never dawned on either Carol or I so it never dawned on either Carol or I so it never dawned on either Carol or I cuz we met like we're going, "Okay, all cuz we met like we're going, "Okay, all cuz we met like we're going, "Okay, all of our relatives are a mess cuz they're of our relatives are a mess cuz they're of our relatives are a mess cuz they're not Christians. So they're not obeying not Christians. So they're not obeying not Christians. So they're not obeying the Bible." To put it simply, we're just the Bible." To put it simply, we're just the Bible." To put it simply, we're just going to do what it says as best as we going to do what it says as best as we going to do what it says as best as we can. And so we're like, "Well, we're can. And so we're like, "Well, we're can. And so we're like, "Well, we're in." Okay. And it I don't think either in." Okay. And it I don't think either in." Okay. And it I don't think either one of us ever thought there was ever an one of us ever thought there was ever an one of us ever thought there was ever an escape hatch. And I think if you talk to escape hatch. And I think if you talk to escape hatch. And I think if you talk to our kids, they would go, our kids, they would go, our kids, they would go, "Oh, mom and dad were having an argument "Oh, mom and dad were having an argument "Oh, mom and dad were having an argument or something like that, we never thought

or something like that, we never thought or something like that, we never thought they would separate." they would separate." they would separate." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Um Um did you live in that fear as a child did you live in that fear as a child did you live in that fear as a child that teenager that your parents were in that teenager that your parents were in that teenager that your parents were in a divorce? a divorce? a divorce? Our our home was such a mess that Our our home was such a mess that Our our home was such a mess that divorce was a relief. the you know um divorce was a relief. the you know um divorce was a relief. the you know um the implications of it weren't but the the implications of it weren't but the the implications of it weren't but the divorce was you know I mean everybody divorce was you know I mean everybody divorce was you know I mean everybody was like okay at least they won't be in was like okay at least they won't be in was like okay at least they won't be in the same house screaming at each other the same house screaming at each other the same house screaming at each other anymore um and so anymore um and so anymore um and so you know so the so the divorce thing you know so the so the divorce thing you know so the so the divorce thing that was a whole different ball game that was a whole different ball game that was a whole different ball game wow wow wow wow for families like do you have any wow for families like do you have any wow for families like do you have any rules like one one of mine is your rules like one one of mine is your rules like one one of mine is your emotions eventually catch up to your emotions eventually catch up to your emotions eventually catch up to your obedience Tony and I have had seasons in obedience Tony and I have had seasons in obedience Tony and I have had seasons in our 35 years together our 35 years together our 35 years together good good good you know two lawyers And there are times you know two lawyers And there are times you know two lawyers And there are times where your emotions aren't really there, where your emotions aren't really there, where your emotions aren't really there, but if your obedience is, your emotions but if your obedience is, your emotions but if your obedience is, your emotions will catch up. Um, do you have any will catch up. Um, do you have any will catch up. Um, do you have any principles or guidelines or rules that principles or guidelines or rules that principles or guidelines or rules that have helped you and Carol through the have helped you and Carol through the have helped you and Carol through the different seasons of four decades of different seasons of four decades of different seasons of four decades of marriage that could be helpful for marriage that could be helpful for marriage that could be helpful for couples who are 5 10 years in and couples who are 5 10 years in and couples who are 5 10 years in and wondering, 40 sounds like a long time?

wondering, 40 sounds like a long time? wondering, 40 sounds like a long time? Hey, there are times where you're like, Hey, there are times where you're like, Hey, there are times where you're like, okay, this does sound like a long time. okay, this does sound like a long time. okay, this does sound like a long time. Um, Um, Um, Uhhuh. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Uh-huh. Um, for my wife, of course, not me if Um, for my wife, of course, not me if Um, for my wife, of course, not me if she's listening. Um, the she's listening. Um, the she's listening. Um, the you know what was a g you know what was a g you know what was a g a game changer for me happened? a game changer for me happened? a game changer for me happened? Yeah. It was a long time ago now. My Yeah. It was a long time ago now. My Yeah. It was a long time ago now. My daughter Lesie came home and she said, daughter Lesie came home and she said, daughter Lesie came home and she said, um, she said, "Dad, I have I have to um, she said, "Dad, I have I have to um, she said, "Dad, I have I have to write a paper on a leader." And she write a paper on a leader." And she write a paper on a leader." And she said, "And they know who you are, so I said, "And they know who you are, so I said, "And they know who you are, so I picked you." and they said it was okay picked you." and they said it was okay picked you." and they said it was okay and she's got this she got this piece of and she's got this she got this piece of and she's got this she got this piece of paper. She goes and I got 20 questions paper. She goes and I got 20 questions paper. She goes and I got 20 questions and dad you have to answer them all and dad you have to answer them all and dad you have to answer them all honestly honestly honestly and we have a jacuzzi in the backyard. I and we have a jacuzzi in the backyard. I and we have a jacuzzi in the backyard. I said well let's just go in the jacuzzi said well let's just go in the jacuzzi said well let's just go in the jacuzzi cuz I'm going to end up in hot water. cuz I'm going to end up in hot water. cuz I'm going to end up in hot water. Let's just start there. Talk for two Let's just start there. Talk for two Let's just start there. Talk for two hours. It was phenomenal. Okay. And I hours. It was phenomenal. Okay. And I hours. It was phenomenal. Okay. And I mean covered everything under the sun. mean covered everything under the sun. mean covered everything under the sun. Her last question was her was I think Her last question was her was I think Her last question was her was I think maybe the most important question in maybe the most important question in maybe the most important question in life, marriage, ministry, anything else.

life, marriage, ministry, anything else. life, marriage, ministry, anything else. She looked at me and said, "What's the She looked at me and said, "What's the She looked at me and said, "What's the most important thing you do as a most important thing you do as a most important thing you do as a leader?" leader?" leader?" And I said, "That's easy, And I said, "That's easy, And I said, "That's easy, but it's bigger than that. The most but it's bigger than that. The most but it's bigger than that. The most important thing I do as a husband, as a important thing I do as a husband, as a important thing I do as a husband, as a dad, as a Christian, as a leader, a is dad, as a Christian, as a leader, a is dad, as a Christian, as a leader, a is this. make sure I stay encouraged this. make sure I stay encouraged this. make sure I stay encouraged and it's make sure I stay encouraged. and it's make sure I stay encouraged. and it's make sure I stay encouraged. And I said I said because if I'm not And I said I said because if I'm not And I said I said because if I'm not encouraged encouraged encouraged I will never be the leader that I think I will never be the leader that I think I will never be the leader that I think our church and God need me to be. If I'm our church and God need me to be. If I'm our church and God need me to be. If I'm encouraged I will never be the husband encouraged I will never be the husband encouraged I will never be the husband mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom mom dreams up I could be someday. If I'm mom dreams up I could be someday. If I'm mom dreams up I could be someday. If I'm never if I'm not encouraged, I I got never if I'm not encouraged, I I got never if I'm not encouraged, I I got choked up and I said, "If I'm not choked up and I said, "If I'm not choked up and I said, "If I'm not encouraged, I will not be the dad you encouraged, I will not be the dad you encouraged, I will not be the dad you need me to be, if I'm not encouraged, need me to be, if I'm not encouraged, need me to be, if I'm not encouraged, you know, and I I said the entire the you know, and I I said the entire the you know, and I I said the entire the single most important thing about any single most important thing about any single most important thing about any human being is are they encouraged?"

human being is are they encouraged?" human being is are they encouraged?" Which means what happened is that led Which means what happened is that led Which means what happened is that led that led to I did a seven-year study cuz that led to I did a seven-year study cuz that led to I did a seven-year study cuz I was literally going what causes hope. I was literally going what causes hope. I was literally going what causes hope. Um Um Um yes, that was my next question. So, yes, that was my next question. So, yes, that was my next question. So, let's go there. let's go there. let's go there. To write I did not intend to write a To write I did not intend to write a To write I did not intend to write a book on hope, which I did. And there's book on hope, which I did. And there's book on hope, which I did. And there's not a sales pitch for a book because it not a sales pitch for a book because it not a sales pitch for a book because it came out a long time ago. Um what came out a long time ago. Um what came out a long time ago. Um what happened though is this. I started going happened though is this. I started going happened though is this. I started going there's every so I would tell that story there's every so I would tell that story there's every so I would tell that story at leadership conferences. I would come at leadership conferences. I would come at leadership conferences. I would come back a year later and people would flock back a year later and people would flock back a year later and people would flock up and go that whole thing about am I up and go that whole thing about am I up and go that whole thing about am I encouraged changed my life because encouraged changed my life because encouraged changed my life because you're pretty much going look um you're pretty much going look um you're pretty much going look um whatever is discouraging you cannot af whatever is discouraging you cannot af whatever is discouraging you cannot af discouragement is a universal repeating discouragement is a universal repeating discouragement is a universal repeating contagious totally destructive disease contagious totally destructive disease contagious totally destructive disease and it always has a cause okay which and it always has a cause okay which and it always has a cause okay which means I've got to do far less things means I've got to do far less things means I've got to do far less things that discourage me and if there's that discourage me and if there's that discourage me and if there's somebody that discourages you just don't somebody that discourages you just don't somebody that discourages you just don't hang out with them and if there are hang out with them and if there are hang out with them and if there are people that encourage you hire them get people that encourage you hire them get people that encourage you hire them get close to them you're going to be better. close to them you're going to be better. close to them you're going to be better. In other words, the and and so what In other words, the and and so what In other words, the and and so what happened is we started so I went I'm happened is we started so I went I'm happened is we started so I went I'm going to investigate hope. I read a going to investigate hope. I read a going to investigate hope. I read a bunch of stuff on hope and I realized it bunch of stuff on hope and I realized it bunch of stuff on hope and I realized it was all trit. It was like trust God and was all trit. It was like trust God and was all trit. It was like trust God and I realized hope is not a primary I realized hope is not a primary I realized hope is not a primary condition.

condition. condition. It's it's a secondary condition based on It's it's a secondary condition based on It's it's a secondary condition based on causes. M causes. M causes. M and so I worked with a Harvard grad and so I worked with a Harvard grad and so I worked with a Harvard grad named Rick Nash, brilliant guy, and a named Rick Nash, brilliant guy, and a named Rick Nash, brilliant guy, and a PhD professor um from Regent, and it PhD professor um from Regent, and it PhD professor um from Regent, and it took seven years. We did a seven-year took seven years. We did a seven-year took seven years. We did a seven-year study on what is it that causes study on what is it that causes study on what is it that causes sustainable hope. sustainable hope. sustainable hope. Wow. And and and and over seven years, Wow. And and and and over seven years, Wow. And and and and over seven years, and we surveyed a thousand people, every and we surveyed a thousand people, every and we surveyed a thousand people, every state developing baselines on this. It state developing baselines on this. It state developing baselines on this. It was more science necessary than stuff was more science necessary than stuff was more science necessary than stuff like that. And over those seven years, like that. And over those seven years, like that. And over those seven years, we discovered there are seven things we discovered there are seven things we discovered there are seven things that if somebody will build them into that if somebody will build them into that if somebody will build them into their life, they will have sustainable their life, they will have sustainable their life, they will have sustainable hope. Okay? And if they don't build them hope. Okay? And if they don't build them hope. Okay? And if they don't build them into their life or their kids or, you into their life or their kids or, you into their life or their kids or, you know, there was this stuff I tried to know, there was this stuff I tried to know, there was this stuff I tried to build into my kids, too. The um and but build into my kids, too. The um and but build into my kids, too. The um and but it was interesting when the book came it was interesting when the book came it was interesting when the book came out, it hit the Wall Street Journal out, it hit the Wall Street Journal out, it hit the Wall Street Journal bestseller list because business people bestseller list because business people bestseller list because business people were reading it because they're smart were reading it because they're smart were reading it because they're smart enough to know if I don't have hope, my enough to know if I don't have hope, my enough to know if I don't have hope, my company has no future. company has no future. company has no future. Yeah. We're in trouble. What What were Yeah. We're in trouble. What What were Yeah. We're in trouble. What What were some of the seven, Ry? because I'm I'm some of the seven, Ry? because I'm I'm some of the seven, Ry? because I'm I'm very interested in that because and very interested in that because and very interested in that because and here's here's what's really you know here's here's what's really you know here's here's what's really you know having spent a lot of time with you having spent a lot of time with you having spent a lot of time with you through you know our friendship with through you know our friendship with through you know our friendship with your kids through Mark Clark really your kids through Mark Clark really your kids through Mark Clark really getting to know you um you you are not a getting to know you um you you are not a getting to know you um you you are not a cynical cynical cynical older leader you are hopeful you are older leader you are hopeful you are older leader you are hopeful you are optimistic like I said 70some going on optimistic like I said 70some going on optimistic like I said 70some going on 17 like there is that energy there's 17 like there is that energy there's 17 like there is that energy there's that enthusiasm and that's true uh in

that enthusiasm and that's true uh in that enthusiasm and that's true uh in every setting I've seen you at a every setting I've seen you at a every setting I've seen you at a restaurant on the road, at your house, restaurant on the road, at your house, restaurant on the road, at your house, in the green room, different settings, in the green room, different settings, in the green room, different settings, different seasons. I think I've had different seasons. I think I've had different seasons. I think I've had enough time with you to know, "No, enough time with you to know, "No, enough time with you to know, "No, that's Ry. He's going to be that's Ry. He's going to be that's Ry. He's going to be encouraging." And that is very rare air encouraging." And that is very rare air encouraging." And that is very rare air for someone at your age and stage and for someone at your age and stage and for someone at your age and stage and also your longevity at the same church also your longevity at the same church also your longevity at the same church for decades, right? So, what are some of for decades, right? So, what are some of for decades, right? So, what are some of the ingredients that have helped you the ingredients that have helped you the ingredients that have helped you stay encouraged and find hope? number. stay encouraged and find hope? number. stay encouraged and find hope? number. We actually, it's funny, full We actually, it's funny, full We actually, it's funny, full disclosure, the I brought it here disclosure, the I brought it here disclosure, the I brought it here because I was occasionally I don't because I was occasionally I don't because I was occasionally I don't reread my book cuz but occasionally if reread my book cuz but occasionally if reread my book cuz but occasionally if I'm not if I'm bummed out, discouraged, I'm not if I'm bummed out, discouraged, I'm not if I'm bummed out, discouraged, getting cynical, or whatever, I'll getting cynical, or whatever, I'll getting cynical, or whatever, I'll literally go, "What's wrong with me?" I literally go, "What's wrong with me?" I literally go, "What's wrong with me?" I was signing this for a young leader a was signing this for a young leader a was signing this for a young leader a while back, and I said, um, he said, "I while back, and I said, um, he said, "I while back, and I said, um, he said, "I I'm looking forward to reading it." I I'm looking forward to reading it." I I'm looking forward to reading it." I said, "I didn't really write this so you said, "I didn't really write this so you said, "I didn't really write this so you could read it. I wrote this so you could could read it. I wrote this so you could could read it. I wrote this so you could build these seven things into your life.

build these seven things into your life. build these seven things into your life. And whenever you're not in a good place, And whenever you're not in a good place, And whenever you're not in a good place, go back cuz one of these things or more go back cuz one of these things or more go back cuz one of these things or more will be off." And um and so the first will be off." And um and so the first will be off." And um and so the first one was this. Recharge your batteries. one was this. Recharge your batteries. one was this. Recharge your batteries. Okay? If I'm running on empty, Okay? If I'm running on empty, Okay? If I'm running on empty, um matter of fact, those of you um matter of fact, those of you um matter of fact, those of you listening to this, you're listening to listening to this, you're listening to listening to this, you're listening to this because you want to recharge your this because you want to recharge your this because you want to recharge your batteries. Okay? You're hoping to walk batteries. Okay? You're hoping to walk batteries. Okay? You're hoping to walk out of here more encouraged. And out of here more encouraged. And out of here more encouraged. And fortunately, Carrie's great at this. Um fortunately, Carrie's great at this. Um fortunately, Carrie's great at this. Um the um if I'm running on empty we the the um if I'm running on empty we the the um if I'm running on empty we the well nothing runs well if the batteries well nothing runs well if the batteries well nothing runs well if the batteries are dead nothing in especially human are dead nothing in especially human are dead nothing in especially human beings. So if I'm grouchy with Carol I'm beings. So if I'm grouchy with Carol I'm beings. So if I'm grouchy with Carol I'm usually grouchy with Carol usually grouchy with Carol usually grouchy with Carol cuz I'm on deplete mode. cuz I'm on deplete mode. cuz I'm on deplete mode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So number one is figure out what So number one is figure out what So number one is figure out what recharges you and do a bunch of it. recharges you and do a bunch of it. recharges you and do a bunch of it. So what recharges you? So what recharges you? So what recharges you? Um great friends recharge me. Five hours Um great friends recharge me. Five hours Um great friends recharge me. Five hours of golf with good friends. A matter of of golf with good friends. A matter of of golf with good friends. A matter of fact, have two golf rules. Never play fact, have two golf rules. Never play fact, have two golf rules. Never play with a jerk. And golf's a great sport if with a jerk. And golf's a great sport if with a jerk. And golf's a great sport if you're not trying to do too well.

you're not trying to do too well. you're not trying to do too well. And then and being in a dream meeting And then and being in a dream meeting And then and being in a dream meeting with a bunch of people dreaming um being with a bunch of people dreaming um being with a bunch of people dreaming um being with my family. Uh they um uh like going with my family. Uh they um uh like going with my family. Uh they um uh like going to church. I love it. Especially to church. I love it. Especially to church. I love it. Especially when I'm preaching. I would rather these when I'm preaching. I would rather these when I'm preaching. I would rather these days listen to a sermon than preach one. days listen to a sermon than preach one. days listen to a sermon than preach one. Okay. I'm going to put a pin on that Okay. I'm going to put a pin on that Okay. I'm going to put a pin on that because I'm coming back to it. You're because I'm coming back to it. You're because I'm coming back to it. You're one of the few preachers who really one of the few preachers who really one of the few preachers who really loves other people preaching. loves other people preaching. loves other people preaching. Getting away with Carol recharges my Getting away with Carol recharges my Getting away with Carol recharges my batteries. Okay. Um having the grandkids batteries. Okay. Um having the grandkids batteries. Okay. Um having the grandkids come over recharge my batteries. But we come over recharge my batteries. But we come over recharge my batteries. But we love seeing them come and we love seeing love seeing them come and we love seeing love seeing them come and we love seeing them go. It's them go. It's them go. It's so So it's kind of like Steve Cuss's so So it's kind of like Steve Cuss's so So it's kind of like Steve Cuss's lifegiving list. You've just got a list lifegiving list. You've just got a list lifegiving list. You've just got a list of things that are idiosyncratic to you of things that are idiosyncratic to you of things that are idiosyncratic to you that you know if I'm running on fumes, I that you know if I'm running on fumes, I that you know if I'm running on fumes, I got to get hit the golf course. We got got to get hit the golf course. We got got to get hit the golf course. We got to go for dinner with friends. We got to to go for dinner with friends. We got to to go for dinner with friends. We got to Y, Y, Y, you know. Okay, good. you know. Okay, good. you know. Okay, good. And then conversely, you go, what drains And then conversely, you go, what drains And then conversely, you go, what drains me? Staff conflict drains me. Okay, me? Staff conflict drains me. Okay, me? Staff conflict drains me. Okay, we've gotten picketed and sued and had we've gotten picketed and sued and had we've gotten picketed and sued and had crazy stuff happen. All like that stuff crazy stuff happen. All like that stuff crazy stuff happen. All like that stuff doesn't bother me a bit. Okay, staff doesn't bother me a bit. Okay, staff doesn't bother me a bit. Okay, staff conflict, I want to quit. Okay. Um, and conflict, I want to quit. Okay. Um, and conflict, I want to quit. Okay. Um, and so so so what kind of conflict makes you want to what kind of conflict makes you want to what kind of conflict makes you want to quit?

quit? quit? Any kind of staff conflict? If our staff Any kind of staff conflict? If our staff Any kind of staff conflict? If our staff is is is staff ah staff ah staff ah I just go feel like Rodney, can't we all I just go feel like Rodney, can't we all I just go feel like Rodney, can't we all get along? Um, and everybody just chill get along? Um, and everybody just chill get along? Um, and everybody just chill out. out. out. So, um, and over time So, um, and over time So, um, and over time those folks hopefully get weeded out. those folks hopefully get weeded out. those folks hopefully get weeded out. So, you end up with a bunch of people So, you end up with a bunch of people So, you end up with a bunch of people that are far better being connectional. that are far better being connectional. that are far better being connectional. Yeah. So, staff conflict kills you. Yeah. So, staff conflict kills you. Yeah. So, staff conflict kills you. So, the first one you reach out. Second So, the first one you reach out. Second So, the first one you reach out. Second one is raise your expectations. one is raise your expectations. one is raise your expectations. Okay. Um, I believe you don't get what Okay. Um, I believe you don't get what Okay. Um, I believe you don't get what you deserve. Sometimes you get what you you deserve. Sometimes you get what you you deserve. Sometimes you get what you expect. Um, I if you if you read Steve expect. Um, I if you if you read Steve expect. Um, I if you if you read Steve Jobs biography, what Jobs biography, what Jobs biography, what Oh, yeah. Isacson's. Oh, yeah. Isacson's. Oh, yeah. Isacson's. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Love it. First half of the book with Steve being First half of the book with Steve being First half of the book with Steve being a jerk. The second half he's still a jerk. The second half he's still a jerk. The second half he's still treating people badly, but he's a great treating people badly, but he's a great treating people badly, but he's a great leader. And I read that Steve Jobs leader. And I read that Steve Jobs leader. And I read that Steve Jobs believes impossible things are possible. believes impossible things are possible. believes impossible things are possible. Yeah. That reality distortion feel. Yeah. That reality distortion feel. Yeah. That reality distortion feel. Same time, every church in America go, Same time, every church in America go, Same time, every church in America go, we can't do that. It's not in the we can't do that. It's not in the we can't do that. It's not in the budget. And with the secular world is budget. And with the secular world is budget. And with the secular world is starting to believe impossible things starting to believe impossible things starting to believe impossible things can happen. At the same time, the can happen. At the same time, the can happen. At the same time, the spiritual world is believing it can't spiritual world is believing it can't spiritual world is believing it can't happen. Um, and so I think there's happen. Um, and so I think there's happen. Um, and so I think there's something about having your expectations something about having your expectations something about having your expectations raised that is a really good thing. It's raised that is a really good thing. It's raised that is a really good thing. It's why I like people coming to the Thrive why I like people coming to the Thrive why I like people coming to the Thrive Conference. I like people tuning into Conference. I like people tuning into Conference. I like people tuning into this kind of stuff. People hear this and this kind of stuff. People hear this and this kind of stuff. People hear this and they go, "Whoa, there is no ceiling or they go, "Whoa, there is no ceiling or they go, "Whoa, there is no ceiling or is at least a mile above where I thought is at least a mile above where I thought is at least a mile above where I thought it was." Okay. Um, the third one is it was." Okay. Um, the third one is it was." Okay. Um, the third one is this. Refocus on the future. Okay. I this. Refocus on the future. Okay. I this. Refocus on the future. Okay. I mean, nobody goes forward well if mean, nobody goes forward well if mean, nobody goes forward well if they're looking back.

they're looking back. they're looking back. Yeah. and and so refocusing on the Yeah. and and so refocusing on the Yeah. and and so refocusing on the future. We did this we did this twice uh future. We did this we did this twice uh future. We did this we did this twice uh in the last five years. We took all of in the last five years. We took all of in the last five years. We took all of our staff. I began to feel like culture our staff. I began to feel like culture our staff. I began to feel like culture was unhealthy. We took all of our staff was unhealthy. We took all of our staff was unhealthy. We took all of our staff and we had our entire staff. We went, and we had our entire staff. We went, and we had our entire staff. We went, we're going to invent culture here at we're going to invent culture here at we're going to invent culture here at our best. Who are we? And we like and we our best. Who are we? And we like and we our best. Who are we? And we like and we started with our entire staff. Okay. And started with our entire staff. Okay. And started with our entire staff. Okay. And we said this is a team thing. who are we said this is a team thing. who are we said this is a team thing. who are who do we want to be? And then it went who do we want to be? And then it went who do we want to be? And then it went from our staff to our pastors back to from our staff to our pastors back to from our staff to our pastors back to our staff. It went through 62 re our staff. It went through 62 re our staff. It went through 62 re revisions revisions revisions we were done. We have a three-page we were done. We have a three-page we were done. We have a three-page document of who we are. And it's document of who we are. And it's document of who we are. And it's basically the front the front cover is basically the front the front cover is basically the front the front cover is all about three things. Live well, love all about three things. Live well, love all about three things. Live well, love well, and lead well. Most churches only well, and lead well. Most churches only well, and lead well. Most churches only care if you lead well. We want people to care if you lead well. We want people to care if you lead well. We want people to live better because they're on our live better because they're on our live better because they're on our staff, love better because they're on staff, love better because they're on staff, love better because they're on our staff, and lead better because our staff, and lead better because our staff, and lead better because they're on our staff. And then there they're on our staff. And then there they're on our staff. And then there were all these different our first were all these different our first were all these different our first statement is health is more important statement is health is more important statement is health is more important than growth. Okay? And we have 13 of than growth. Okay? And we have 13 of than growth. Okay? And we have 13 of those. But if we're going to hire those. But if we're going to hire those. But if we're going to hire somebody, I pull this thing out. I give somebody, I pull this thing out. I give somebody, I pull this thing out. I give them a copy. I read it to them word for them a copy. I read it to them word for them a copy. I read it to them word for word. And I say, "If this doesn't light word. And I say, "If this doesn't light word. And I say, "If this doesn't light you up, then don't come here." Okay?

you up, then don't come here." Okay? you up, then don't come here." Okay? Right? Right? Right? Um and we are getting to the point where Um and we are getting to the point where Um and we are getting to the point where we are going to be reading it. we are going to be reading it. we are going to be reading it. Everybody's going to read it once a year Everybody's going to read it once a year Everybody's going to read it once a year and we all sign it and recommmit and we all sign it and recommmit and we all sign it and recommmit ourselves to it. Okay? Um and then we ourselves to it. Okay? Um and then we ourselves to it. Okay? Um and then we did the same thing. We got our pastors did the same thing. We got our pastors did the same thing. We got our pastors together and the only question we asked together and the only question we asked together and the only question we asked it was it was the same thing. It was a it was it was the same thing. It was a it was it was the same thing. It was a future question. We said if we are going future question. We said if we are going future question. We said if we are going to be together for a long time like all to be together for a long time like all to be together for a long time like all of our senior pastors, of our senior pastors, of our senior pastors, what if we attempted it and it actually what if we attempted it and it actually what if we attempted it and it actually happened would be worth giving the rest happened would be worth giving the rest happened would be worth giving the rest of our lives to make happen? of our lives to make happen? of our lives to make happen? And it was six months. Brought in Brad And it was six months. Brought in Brad And it was six months. Brought in Brad Lick. He was a consultant for some of Lick. He was a consultant for some of Lick. He was a consultant for some of this kind of stuff, guys. Genius. and this kind of stuff, guys. Genius. and this kind of stuff, guys. Genius. and and we worked and by the time the dust and we worked and by the time the dust and we worked and by the time the dust settled it was there were eight things settled it was there were eight things settled it was there were eight things we're about but the entire future got we're about but the entire future got we're about but the entire future got crystal clear. It told us what to do crystal clear. It told us what to do crystal clear. It told us what to do what but everybody was fired up about it what but everybody was fired up about it what but everybody was fired up about it because it's not my church it's our because it's not my church it's our because it's not my church it's our church and now it's their thing. Okay. church and now it's their thing. Okay. church and now it's their thing. Okay. And so and then we're I'll just give the And so and then we're I'll just give the And so and then we're I'll just give the play to your play to your play to your Yeah. Give us a point blank on the four Yeah. Give us a point blank on the four Yeah. Give us a point blank on the four others.

others. others. Yeah. Play to your strengths. Be Yeah. Play to your strengths. Be Yeah. Play to your strengths. Be yourself. Everybody else has taken. yourself. Everybody else has taken. yourself. Everybody else has taken. Okay. Um do most what you do best. The Okay. Um do most what you do best. The Okay. Um do most what you do best. The next one was refuse to go it alone. next one was refuse to go it alone. next one was refuse to go it alone. Never underestimate the power of Never underestimate the power of Never underestimate the power of support. Okay. The next one was replace support. Okay. The next one was replace support. Okay. The next one was replace burnout with balance. And that's a long burnout with balance. And that's a long burnout with balance. And that's a long chapter with a whole lot of systems in chapter with a whole lot of systems in chapter with a whole lot of systems in it and tests. Um and the last one was it and tests. Um and the last one was it and tests. Um and the last one was was play great defense. And when we did was play great defense. And when we did was play great defense. And when we did this um one of our guys was like I don't this um one of our guys was like I don't this um one of our guys was like I don't think this defense has any correlation think this defense has any correlation think this defense has any correlation to hope. And a couple of us thought it to hope. And a couple of us thought it to hope. And a couple of us thought it did. So we tested this around the did. So we tested this around the did. So we tested this around the country. He came back and said the country. He came back and said the country. He came back and said the quickest correlation between having hope quickest correlation between having hope quickest correlation between having hope or losing hope is playing great defense. or losing hope is playing great defense. or losing hope is playing great defense. You know, when discouragement enters, You know, when discouragement enters, You know, when discouragement enters, hope exits. When bitterness enters, hope hope exits. When bitterness enters, hope hope exits. When bitterness enters, hope exits. It's an entire It was an entire exits. It's an entire It was an entire exits. It's an entire It was an entire thing on am I letting these There are thing on am I letting these There are thing on am I letting these There are five of them. Am I letting these five five of them. Am I letting these five five of them. Am I letting these five things into my life? Because if I am, things into my life? Because if I am, things into my life? Because if I am, hope's going to be hard to find until I hope's going to be hard to find until I hope's going to be hard to find until I make sure these destructive things don't make sure these destructive things don't make sure these destructive things don't get distracted. Get me get legally. Get get distracted. Get me get legally. Get get distracted. Get me get legally. Get out of me.

out of me. out of me. You know what's not on the list? Coming You know what's not on the list? Coming You know what's not on the list? Coming home and saying, "Carol, encourage me." home and saying, "Carol, encourage me." home and saying, "Carol, encourage me." If you think about how many If you think about how many If you think about how many relationships relationships relationships one partner is looking to the other one partner is looking to the other one partner is looking to the other spouse to encourage them and you're both spouse to encourage them and you're both spouse to encourage them and you're both having bad days, it's funny that that having bad days, it's funny that that having bad days, it's funny that that fuel is coming in from other sources to fuel is coming in from other sources to fuel is coming in from other sources to um to strengthen the marriage. um to strengthen the marriage. um to strengthen the marriage. Interesting. Yep. Wow. The um Yeah. Interesting. Yep. Wow. The um Yeah. Interesting. Yep. Wow. The um Yeah. The um Yeah. I'm usually the one walking The um Yeah. I'm usually the one walking The um Yeah. I'm usually the one walking home going, "Carol, encourage me." So, home going, "Carol, encourage me." So, home going, "Carol, encourage me." So, because there's sometimes that has to because there's sometimes that has to because there's sometimes that has to happen. Or she'll look at me and go, happen. Or she'll look at me and go, happen. Or she'll look at me and go, "Uh, could you uh take a quick break, "Uh, could you uh take a quick break, "Uh, could you uh take a quick break, quit being a jerk?" I'll go, "Good. I'll quit being a jerk?" I'll go, "Good. I'll quit being a jerk?" I'll go, "Good. I'll be back." be back." be back." Oh, sure. I mean, you can you can spell Oh, sure. I mean, you can you can spell Oh, sure. I mean, you can you can spell each other off, but long term, you can each other off, but long term, you can each other off, but long term, you can end up with two balloons trying to fill end up with two balloons trying to fill end up with two balloons trying to fill each other and eventually you leak air each other and eventually you leak air each other and eventually you leak air and there's nothing left. That is that and there's nothing left. That is that and there's nothing left. That is that is brilliant. I've never heard of it. is brilliant. I've never heard of it. is brilliant. I've never heard of it. And you're right, the church answers.

And you're right, the church answers. And you're right, the church answers. Trust God, pray, and read your Bible. Trust God, pray, and read your Bible. Trust God, pray, and read your Bible. Yes. It and it took a long time for us Yes. It and it took a long time for us Yes. It and it took a long time for us to realize it. And I was working with to realize it. And I was working with to realize it. And I was working with really smart people. really smart people. really smart people. Yeah. Well, seven years. Yeah. Well, seven years. Yeah. Well, seven years. Yeah. Exact. Yeah. It was a I was like, Yeah. Exact. Yeah. It was a I was like, Yeah. Exact. Yeah. It was a I was like, "This isn't ever going to get written." "This isn't ever going to get written." "This isn't ever going to get written." Um, but it was it was for me the whole Um, but it was it was for me the whole Um, but it was it was for me the whole thing was triggered by a conversation thing was triggered by a conversation thing was triggered by a conversation with my daughter when she said, "What's with my daughter when she said, "What's with my daughter when she said, "What's the most important thing you do?" the most important thing you do?" the most important thing you do?" Yeah. Back to the hot tub. Yeah. Back to the hot tub. Yeah. Back to the hot tub. That's right. to stay encouraged, right? That's right. to stay encouraged, right? That's right. to stay encouraged, right? And you look at that that how have you And you look at that that how have you And you look at that that how have you not grown cynical? You've seen a lot of not grown cynical? You've seen a lot of not grown cynical? You've seen a lot of colleagues grow cynical. You've seen a colleagues grow cynical. You've seen a colleagues grow cynical. You've seen a lot of people you grew up with get lot of people you grew up with get lot of people you grew up with get cynical. Cynical and age are frequent cynical. Cynical and age are frequent cynical. Cynical and age are frequent companions. And around 40, companions. And around 40, companions. And around 40, it's interesting. it's interesting. it's interesting. 20 years ago, I realized, oh, I I could 20 years ago, I realized, oh, I I could 20 years ago, I realized, oh, I I could become cynical. I could be that guy, you become cynical. I could be that guy, you become cynical. I could be that guy, you know, because cyn cynicism is equated know, because cyn cynicism is equated know, because cyn cynicism is equated with knowledge, right? With much wisdom with knowledge, right? With much wisdom with knowledge, right? With much wisdom comes much grief. With much uh knowledge comes much grief. With much uh knowledge comes much grief. With much uh knowledge comes much sorrow. That's Solomon. And I comes much sorrow. That's Solomon. And I comes much sorrow. That's Solomon. And I think he's right. You know, you're happy think he's right. You know, you're happy think he's right. You know, you're happy when you're young because you're stupid. when you're young because you're stupid. when you're young because you're stupid. Um, but as you get older, it gets Um, but as you get older, it gets Um, but as you get older, it gets harder. And so, what has kept you harder. And so, what has kept you harder. And so, what has kept you hopeful, optimistic, and looking to the hopeful, optimistic, and looking to the hopeful, optimistic, and looking to the future after decades of ministry?

future after decades of ministry? future after decades of ministry? Um, I'm not going to name the church, Um, I'm not going to name the church, Um, I'm not going to name the church, but it's a very large church. And I but it's a very large church. And I but it's a very large church. And I several times recently, we have so many several times recently, we have so many several times recently, we have so many pastors, okay, that are pastors, okay, that are pastors, okay, that are I'm I'm like frosting around here. Um, I'm I'm like frosting around here. Um, I'm I'm like frosting around here. Um, so I get calls occasionally going, "This so I get calls occasionally going, "This so I get calls occasionally going, "This mega church is in trouble. Can you go in mega church is in trouble. Can you go in mega church is in trouble. Can you go in and be their interim person?" So I've and be their interim person?" So I've and be their interim person?" So I've done that several. done that several. done that several. You've done that a few times. Yeah. You've done that a few times. Yeah. You've done that a few times. Yeah. Last one. The church is massive. And it Last one. The church is massive. And it Last one. The church is massive. And it was interesting because I walked in this was interesting because I walked in this was interesting because I walked in this church and the day later I went, "Church church and the day later I went, "Church church and the day later I went, "Church is simple." Okay. And the largest church is simple." Okay. And the largest church is simple." Okay. And the largest church helped me figure this out. You got a helped me figure this out. You got a helped me figure this out. You got a board, you got a staff, and you got board, you got a staff, and you got board, you got a staff, and you got people. Boom. There's the church. And people. Boom. There's the church. And people. Boom. There's the church. And And the board needed serious fixing. And the board needed serious fixing. And the board needed serious fixing. Okay. The the staff was cynical. I'll Okay. The the staff was cynical. I'll Okay. The the staff was cynical. I'll come back to that in a second. And then come back to that in a second. And then come back to that in a second. And then the and then the people the people they the and then the people the people they the and then the people the people they were great. They were like, could we were great. They were like, could we were great. They were like, could we just love God and stay out of the just love God and stay out of the just love God and stay out of the headlines and be a church. And so we headlines and be a church. And so we headlines and be a church. And so we worked with the board ma mainly with the worked with the board ma mainly with the worked with the board ma mainly with the board to make sure the right person was board to make sure the right person was board to make sure the right person was running it, which happened. And then we running it, which happened. And then we running it, which happened. And then we pretty much went, look, you your number pretty much went, look, you your number pretty much went, look, you your number one job is to find a senior pastor, but one job is to find a senior pastor, but one job is to find a senior pastor, but here's the eight things you look for.

here's the eight things you look for. here's the eight things you look for. So, we literally drilled this in, got So, we literally drilled this in, got So, we literally drilled this in, got that cemented in, and that happened. Um, that cemented in, and that happened. Um, that cemented in, and that happened. Um, the the sta the most the the cynic the the the sta the most the the cynic the the the sta the most the the cynic the staff was cynical. I think what's pretty staff was cynical. I think what's pretty staff was cynical. I think what's pretty good reason, good reason, good reason, but that's I'm not sure. but that's I'm not sure. but that's I'm not sure. This is an overstatement. I'm not sure This is an overstatement. I'm not sure This is an overstatement. I'm not sure cynicism is curable. Um cynicism is curable. Um cynicism is curable. Um I think and I think it is if somebody I think and I think it is if somebody I think and I think it is if somebody decides I'm gonna stop it um and takes a decides I'm gonna stop it um and takes a decides I'm gonna stop it um and takes a and basically takes a route out. Um in and basically takes a route out. Um in and basically takes a route out. Um in my opinion cynicism my opinion cynicism my opinion cynicism is an addictive drug people take to make is an addictive drug people take to make is an addictive drug people take to make themsel feel superior. Because if if I'm cynical, Because if if I'm cynical, then I am take I'm putting myself as then I am take I'm putting myself as then I am take I'm putting myself as judge over things, which means which judge over things, which means which judge over things, which means which means now I'm better than all of these means now I'm better than all of these means now I'm better than all of these people that aren't smart enough. All people that aren't smart enough. All people that aren't smart enough. All this kind of stuff. I heard Lloyd John this kind of stuff. I heard Lloyd John this kind of stuff. I heard Lloyd John Olgo say one time, he said, "God alone Olgo say one time, he said, "God alone Olgo say one time, he said, "God alone is judge." And he said, "The second you is judge." And he said, "The second you is judge." And he said, "The second you take God's place as judge," which cynics take God's place as judge," which cynics take God's place as judge," which cynics do, do, do, the second you do that, the second you do that, the second you do that, your wiring, human beings are not your wiring, human beings are not your wiring, human beings are not hardwired to take God's role as judge.

hardwired to take God's role as judge. hardwired to take God's role as judge. So the minute I step into the role of So the minute I step into the role of So the minute I step into the role of judge, I short circuit on the inside judge, I short circuit on the inside judge, I short circuit on the inside and get my wires get fried and that so I and get my wires get fried and that so I and get my wires get fried and that so I get cynical because my inner wiring has get cynical because my inner wiring has get cynical because my inner wiring has been fried. And he actually said this, been fried. And he actually said this, been fried. And he actually said this, "Every negative, toxic mood you've ever "Every negative, toxic mood you've ever "Every negative, toxic mood you've ever been in comes from taking God's role as been in comes from taking God's role as been in comes from taking God's role as judge, judge, judge, yourself, yourself, yourself, judging your circumstances, or judging judging your circumstances, or judging judging your circumstances, or judging other people." other people." other people." And deep stuff, but but the I had some And deep stuff, but but the I had some And deep stuff, but but the I had some early Lake Avenue church was awesome. It early Lake Avenue church was awesome. It early Lake Avenue church was awesome. It was it they they had low tolerance for was it they they had low tolerance for was it they they had low tolerance for bad attitudes. And so I think I got some bad attitudes. And so I think I got some bad attitudes. And so I think I got some pretty good training on that. And I've pretty good training on that. And I've pretty good training on that. And I've always kind of felt like cynicism is a always kind of felt like cynicism is a always kind of felt like cynicism is a destructive disease. destructive disease. destructive disease. And I didn't want it in my house. Didn't And I didn't want it in my house. Didn't And I didn't want it in my house. Didn't want it in my family. Um and matter of want it in my family. Um and matter of want it in my family. Um and matter of fact, remember Carol had been married fact, remember Carol had been married fact, remember Carol had been married about a year and I walked in and I some about a year and I walked in and I some about a year and I walked in and I some smart comment like, "Hey, what's the smart comment like, "Hey, what's the smart comment like, "Hey, what's the burnt offering for tonight?" and and she burnt offering for tonight?" and and she burnt offering for tonight?" and and she bam, she stopped me and she's made it bam, she stopped me and she's made it bam, she stopped me and she's made it crystal clear that there was going to be crystal clear that there was going to be crystal clear that there was going to be no cynicism in our house and no chopping no cynicism in our house and no chopping no cynicism in our house and no chopping of anybody down in our house or if that of anybody down in our house or if that of anybody down in our house or if that was going to be part of how I operated was going to be part of how I operated was going to be part of how I operated there, there was a spare bedroom. And so there, there was a spare bedroom. And so there, there was a spare bedroom. And so I was pretty much like, okay. So, a lot I was pretty much like, okay. So, a lot I was pretty much like, okay. So, a lot of that is Carol. I mean, some early of that is Carol. I mean, some early of that is Carol. I mean, some early stuff on that, but Carol has been a

stuff on that, but Carol has been a stuff on that, but Carol has been a great great person on that. Um, she just great great person on that. Um, she just great great person on that. Um, she just wants a clean heart and wants people to wants a clean heart and wants people to wants a clean heart and wants people to be grateful. be grateful. be grateful. So, So, So, so, you know, none of us gets everything so, you know, none of us gets everything so, you know, none of us gets everything right, Rey. And you've made mistakes right, Rey. And you've made mistakes right, Rey. And you've made mistakes over time. I've made some mistakes over over time. I've made some mistakes over over time. I've made some mistakes over time. What are some leadership mistakes time. What are some leadership mistakes time. What are some leadership mistakes you made over the 40 years that you've you made over the 40 years that you've you made over the 40 years that you've been in leadership that if you could been in leadership that if you could been in leadership that if you could have a doover, you're like, "Oh, that have a doover, you're like, "Oh, that have a doover, you're like, "Oh, that was that was a road I didn't need to was that was a road I didn't need to was that was a road I didn't need to walk down." walk down." walk down." I had a I You sent me this question. I had a I You sent me this question. I had a I You sent me this question. Yeah. I don't think I've looked at my Yeah. I don't think I've looked at my Yeah. I don't think I've looked at my question since we started. I know. question since we started. I know. question since we started. I know. By the way, that's a we're an hour into By the way, that's a we're an hour into By the way, that's a we're an hour into this and that's a really good sign, Ray. this and that's a really good sign, Ray. this and that's a really good sign, Ray. That is not a problem. That is not a problem. That is not a problem. This was um This was um This was um uh I got to find this because uh I got to find this because uh I got to find this because it was it was it was Yeah, let me see if I can find it in my Yeah, let me see if I can find it in my Yeah, let me see if I can find it in my notes. notes. notes. Yeah, by the way, I can Yeah, here we Yeah, by the way, I can Yeah, here we Yeah, by the way, I can Yeah, here we go. It's the It's question blind spots go. It's the It's question blind spots go. It's the It's question blind spots 13. 13. 13. Um the number like in terms of mistakes, Um the number like in terms of mistakes, Um the number like in terms of mistakes, blind spots, all of that kind of stuff.

blind spots, all of that kind of stuff. blind spots, all of that kind of stuff. Um the I could write for hours. Um the I could write for hours. Um the I could write for hours. This is embarrassing. Um one of the This is embarrassing. Um one of the This is embarrassing. Um one of the reasons we are who we are now is um reasons we are who we are now is um reasons we are who we are now is um about about about 15 years ago um I be we had about 145 15 years ago um I be we had about 145 15 years ago um I be we had about 145 staff and I began to feel like our staff and I began to feel like our staff and I began to feel like our staff's not healthy and not happy. Okay. staff's not healthy and not happy. Okay. staff's not healthy and not happy. Okay. Um we had hired some people at the top Um we had hired some people at the top Um we had hired some people at the top that were um far less feeling and far that were um far less feeling and far that were um far less feeling and far more like run the organization. And um more like run the organization. And um more like run the organization. And um and what happened is so we brought in a and what happened is so we brought in a and what happened is so we brought in a company and they surveyed everybody company and they surveyed everybody company and they surveyed everybody 145 people. It was pretty much like 145 people. It was pretty much like 145 people. It was pretty much like giving 145 people a loaded gun and total giving 145 people a loaded gun and total giving 145 people a loaded gun and total anonymity. And all of our leaders got anonymity. And all of our leaders got anonymity. And all of our leaders got feedback from three to five people. I feedback from three to five people. I feedback from three to five people. I got direct feedback Carrie from 145 got direct feedback Carrie from 145 got direct feedback Carrie from 145 people. It was like a 40page book and I people. It was like a 40page book and I people. It was like a 40page book and I read it every single thing in it and it read it every single thing in it and it read it every single thing in it and it wrecked me. And and my first thought was wrecked me. And and my first thought was wrecked me. And and my first thought was I'm I quit. I I don't need this. And I'm I quit. I I don't need this. And I'm I quit. I I don't need this. And then my second thought is my second then my second thought is my second then my second thought is my second thought was I'm not quitting. I'm firing thought was I'm not quitting. I'm firing thought was I'm not quitting. I'm firing everybody. I can get these attitudes for everybody. I can get these attitudes for everybody. I can get these attitudes for free. And then and I didn't want to do free. And then and I didn't want to do free. And then and I didn't want to do this. So, I brought it home and I gave this. So, I brought it home and I gave this. So, I brought it home and I gave it to my wife and said I said, "I don't it to my wife and said I said, "I don't it to my wife and said I said, "I don't really want to give this to you, but really want to give this to you, but really want to give this to you, but because it's embarrassing, but read because it's embarrassing, but read because it's embarrassing, but read this." She read the entire thing. She this." She read the entire thing. She this." She read the entire thing. She goes, "Who are these people?" And I goes, "Who are these people?" And I goes, "Who are these people?" And I said, "They're our staff." And and and said, "They're our staff." And and and said, "They're our staff." And and and then and then I went, I got to either

then and then I went, I got to either then and then I went, I got to either quit, fire everybody, or deal with us. quit, fire everybody, or deal with us. quit, fire everybody, or deal with us. So, I gathered the three wisest people I So, I gathered the three wisest people I So, I gathered the three wisest people I know, a buddy of mine in Newport Beach know, a buddy of mine in Newport Beach know, a buddy of mine in Newport Beach named Morgan. Um, a great consultant, named Morgan. Um, a great consultant, named Morgan. Um, a great consultant, um, two great consultants, um, one of um, two great consultants, um, one of um, two great consultants, um, one of them to Southwest Airlines. She's them to Southwest Airlines. She's them to Southwest Airlines. She's amazing. And we went to Newport Beach amazing. And we went to Newport Beach amazing. And we went to Newport Beach for for 48 hours. And I gave them I for for 48 hours. And I gave them I for for 48 hours. And I gave them I didn't want to do this. I gave them the didn't want to do this. I gave them the didn't want to do this. I gave them the entire thing. And I cuz my wife read it entire thing. And I cuz my wife read it entire thing. And I cuz my wife read it a second time and she said, "I don't a second time and she said, "I don't a second time and she said, "I don't know. Maybe you should pray about it." know. Maybe you should pray about it." know. Maybe you should pray about it." I'm like, "Shut up, honey." Um, and so, I'm like, "Shut up, honey." Um, and so, I'm like, "Shut up, honey." Um, and so, so they read this thing and at the end so they read this thing and at the end so they read this thing and at the end of reading it, I mean, I got hammered, of reading it, I mean, I got hammered, of reading it, I mean, I got hammered, but at the end of reading it, the fog but at the end of reading it, the fog but at the end of reading it, the fog lifted and I went, "Oh, it's all about lifted and I went, "Oh, it's all about lifted and I went, "Oh, it's all about two things. two things. two things. Mission morale." Mission morale." Mission morale." And I have been doing nothing but And I have been doing nothing but And I have been doing nothing but stepping on the mission accelerator, stepping on the mission accelerator, stepping on the mission accelerator, growth, you know, all this kind of growth, you know, all this kind of growth, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I have ignored this morale stuff. And I have ignored this morale stuff. And I have ignored this morale accelerator in us is now experiencing accelerator in us is now experiencing accelerator in us is now experiencing the destructive consequences of somebody the destructive consequences of somebody the destructive consequences of somebody that cares about the mission but doesn't that cares about the mission but doesn't that cares about the mission but doesn't care about them.

care about them. care about them. And um by the way, it's what the Apostle And um by the way, it's what the Apostle And um by the way, it's what the Apostle Paul said in Philippians. He goes, "I'd Paul said in Philippians. He goes, "I'd Paul said in Philippians. He goes, "I'd rather be in heaven, but I'm sticking rather be in heaven, but I'm sticking rather be in heaven, but I'm sticking around for your progress, mission, and around for your progress, mission, and around for your progress, mission, and joy in the gospel morale." joy in the gospel morale." joy in the gospel morale." And and so we gathered our whole staff. And and so we gathered our whole staff. And and so we gathered our whole staff. We actually had to remove a couple We actually had to remove a couple We actually had to remove a couple leaders um from what they were doing. leaders um from what they were doing. leaders um from what they were doing. But I I gota I started crying in front But I I gota I started crying in front But I I gota I started crying in front of our staff. I said, "I'm really really of our staff. I said, "I'm really really of our staff. I said, "I'm really really sorry. Um I said um we will get this sorry. Um I said um we will get this sorry. Um I said um we will get this right. We will create listening groups. right. We will create listening groups. right. We will create listening groups. We will figure out what will encourage We will figure out what will encourage We will figure out what will encourage what will build a healthier culture what will build a healthier culture what will build a healthier culture here." And we went after that for here." And we went after that for here." And we went after that for probably 18 months. It changed our staff probably 18 months. It changed our staff probably 18 months. It changed our staff meeting. Our staff meeting is the best. meeting. Our staff meeting is the best. meeting. Our staff meeting is the best. It changed our staff meeting. It changed It changed our staff meeting. It changed It changed our staff meeting. It changed our culture. Um the the by the way for our culture. Um the the by the way for our culture. Um the the by the way for those of you that lead organizations the those of you that lead organizations the those of you that lead organizations the other thing they said is and this is a other thing they said is and this is a other thing they said is and this is a brilliant where they said you have about brilliant where they said you have about brilliant where they said you have about 11 disgruntleds on your staff and they 11 disgruntleds on your staff and they 11 disgruntleds on your staff and they will not get better. There were will not get better. There were will not get better. There were disgruntled at home there. They said and disgruntled at home there. They said and disgruntled at home there. They said and your organization so they said they need your organization so they said they need your organization so they said they need to be gone. So that happened but our but to be gone. So that happened but our but to be gone. So that happened but our but it totally changed everything but I but it totally changed everything but I but it totally changed everything but I but I have a whole bunch of things but by I have a whole bunch of things but by I have a whole bunch of things but by far the shaping thing at Bayside was far the shaping thing at Bayside was far the shaping thing at Bayside was that whole disaster of a 360 um which that whole disaster of a 360 um which that whole disaster of a 360 um which turned out not to be a disaster. It turned out not to be a disaster. It turned out not to be a disaster. It turned out to be a pretty character turned out to be a pretty character turned out to be a pretty character leadership shape I think for me and it's leadership shape I think for me and it's leadership shape I think for me and it's a for those of you listening to this a for those of you listening to this a for those of you listening to this it's a story I don't like to tell but it's a story I don't like to tell but it's a story I don't like to tell but you should probably put it on the air.

you should probably put it on the air. you should probably put it on the air. Um Um Um what what led to the morale dipping? You what what led to the morale dipping? You what what led to the morale dipping? You said focus on mission. Was there said focus on mission. Was there said focus on mission. Was there anything else? anything else? anything else? It it was more um for example um one of It it was more um for example um one of It it was more um for example um one of our guys um our guys um our guys um [Music] [Music] [Music] the the the the the the there's feelers and thinkers. Okay. there's feelers and thinkers. Okay. there's feelers and thinkers. Okay. Yeah. We had hired some thinkers with Yeah. We had hired some thinkers with Yeah. We had hired some thinkers with low feeling components. So like like low feeling components. So like like low feeling components. So like like staff values on the wall. staff values staff values on the wall. staff values staff values on the wall. staff values got put on the wall like they just got put on the wall like they just got put on the wall like they just appeared and this person wrote them and appeared and this person wrote them and appeared and this person wrote them and it was like integrity we expect you to d it was like integrity we expect you to d it was like integrity we expect you to d I'm going and this happened without me I'm going and this happened without me I'm going and this happened without me putting it on so I wasn't paying enough putting it on so I wasn't paying enough putting it on so I wasn't paying enough attention which is my fault um and but attention which is my fault um and but attention which is my fault um and but they were it there there were good they were it there there were good they were it there there were good reasons for that and but I I genuinely reasons for that and but I I genuinely reasons for that and but I I genuinely think all we talked about was this we think all we talked about was this we think all we talked about was this we had not talked Like when I learned had not talked Like when I learned had not talked Like when I learned enough through that where I went, we enough through that where I went, we enough through that where I went, we want to actually come up with what our want to actually come up with what our want to actually come up with what our mission is going forward, but we spent mission is going forward, but we spent mission is going forward, but we spent six months on culture before we spent six months on culture before we spent six months on culture before we spent six months on mission.

six months on mission. six months on mission. I would have never done that in my I would have never done that in my I would have never done that in my younger days. I would have flipped them. younger days. I would have flipped them. younger days. I would have flipped them. Hey, I'm noticing we're at four o'clock. Hey, I'm noticing we're at four o'clock. Hey, I'm noticing we're at four o'clock. We got off to a slow start. Do you have We got off to a slow start. Do you have We got off to a slow start. Do you have a hard stop or you had a few more a hard stop or you had a few more a hard stop or you had a few more minutes? minutes? minutes? I'm good. I like talking. I'm good. I like talking. I'm good. I like talking. This is so good. This is so good. Ray, This is so good. This is so good. Ray, This is so good. This is so good. Ray, wow. Okay, we'll keep going. wow. Okay, we'll keep going. wow. Okay, we'll keep going. So, you know, a lot of leaders don't So, you know, a lot of leaders don't So, you know, a lot of leaders don't make it decades into leadership. They make it decades into leadership. They make it decades into leadership. They don't make it to your stage. Some of don't make it to your stage. Some of don't make it to your stage. Some of them, we've talked about this already, them, we've talked about this already, them, we've talked about this already, moral failure, collapse, scandal, gone. moral failure, collapse, scandal, gone. moral failure, collapse, scandal, gone. Their character implodes. Some just get Their character implodes. Some just get Their character implodes. Some just get tired and cynical and they leave tired and cynical and they leave tired and cynical and they leave quietly. Um, some can't handle the quietly. Um, some can't handle the quietly. Um, some can't handle the pressure. When you look around at your pressure. When you look around at your pressure. When you look around at your colleagues, people you started with, colleagues, people you started with, colleagues, people you started with, people you knew. We're talking about people you knew. We're talking about people you knew. We're talking about John Maxwell who seems to be finishing John Maxwell who seems to be finishing John Maxwell who seems to be finishing strong and on well not that he's strong and on well not that he's strong and on well not that he's finishing but I mean in his late 70s finishing but I mean in his late 70s finishing but I mean in his late 70s you're saying he's a better leader than you're saying he's a better leader than you're saying he's a better leader than he was in his 60s or his 50s like he's he was in his 60s or his 50s like he's he was in his 60s or his 50s like he's peing but you look at people who don't peing but you look at people who don't peing but you look at people who don't do that who don't finish well. Um, what do that who don't finish well. Um, what do that who don't finish well. Um, what are some of the mistakes, the repeated are some of the mistakes, the repeated are some of the mistakes, the repeated mistakes that when you survey the mistakes that when you survey the mistakes that when you survey the landscape as the people who didn't make landscape as the people who didn't make landscape as the people who didn't make it, you see them making cuz you've had to walk in with a mop and cuz you've had to walk in with a mop and bucket a couple of times to clean up bucket a couple of times to clean up bucket a couple of times to clean up some messes from colleagues and peers.

some messes from colleagues and peers. some messes from colleagues and peers. Yeah, I would say every situation I've Yeah, I would say every situation I've Yeah, I would say every situation I've been in um been in um been in um the was something had happened the was something had happened the was something had happened to the leader or leaders to the leader or leaders to the leader or leaders that caused them that caused them that caused them to to to that c it's funny. there's there's that that c it's funny. there's there's that that c it's funny. there's there's that cause them to morally fall off the edge cause them to morally fall off the edge cause them to morally fall off the edge of something. of something. of something. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Or Or Or um or elevate themselves um or elevate themselves um or elevate themselves um you know like I I know a pastor the um you know like I I know a pastor the um you know like I I know a pastor the entire staff when he walks in the room entire staff when he walks in the room entire staff when he walks in the room the whole staff has to stand up out of the whole staff has to stand up out of the whole staff has to stand up out of respect. respect. respect. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I'm going Jesus walked in a room got I'm going Jesus walked in a room got I'm going Jesus walked in a room got down on a knee and washed everybody's down on a knee and washed everybody's down on a knee and washed everybody's feet. I mean how do we invent this feet. I mean how do we invent this feet. I mean how do we invent this stuff? Okay. Um, and so stuff? Okay. Um, and so stuff? Okay. Um, and so what's dangerous about that? what's dangerous about that? what's dangerous about that? What's dangerous What's dangerous What's dangerous when when that everybody has to walk when when that everybody has to walk when when that everybody has to walk stand up when I walk in the room? What's stand up when I walk in the room? What's stand up when I walk in the room? What's dangerous about that, Ray? dangerous about that, Ray? dangerous about that, Ray? I don't know. We're going to try that I don't know. We're going to try that I don't know. We're going to try that around here and see if it works.

around here and see if it works. around here and see if it works. Yeah. Yeah. It's not my mo, but I'm just Yeah. Yeah. It's not my mo, but I'm just Yeah. Yeah. It's not my mo, but I'm just wondering because there must be like wondering because there must be like wondering because there must be like what what what do you see as the trap? what what what do you see as the trap? what what what do you see as the trap? I think I think what that does is it I think I think what that does is it I think I think what that does is it sets up a Well, I had a pastor tell me sets up a Well, I had a pastor tell me sets up a Well, I had a pastor tell me he said, "Here's how I view it. I'm the he said, "Here's how I view it. I'm the he said, "Here's how I view it. I'm the race car driver, my staff is the pit race car driver, my staff is the pit race car driver, my staff is the pit crew crew crew and and I'm going, wait a second. Um the and and I'm going, wait a second. Um the and and I'm going, wait a second. Um the what if they're all race car drivers what if they're all race car drivers what if they're all race car drivers and our role is to help them be as great and our role is to help them be as great and our role is to help them be as great as they can be, then we have a whole as they can be, then we have a whole as they can be, then we have a whole bunch of people out winning races bunch of people out winning races bunch of people out winning races instead of just spectating watching us instead of just spectating watching us instead of just spectating watching us circle the track. circle the track. circle the track. Wow. Wow. Wow. Um and so so I think it's dangerous on Um and so so I think it's dangerous on Um and so so I think it's dangerous on every level. Um the I I mean leadership every level. Um the I I mean leadership every level. Um the I I mean leadership when people use leadership for when people use leadership for when people use leadership for privileges instead of responsibility, privileges instead of responsibility, privileges instead of responsibility, it's a very damaging thing. it's a very damaging thing. it's a very damaging thing. Okay. Um when people expect people to Okay. Um when people expect people to Okay. Um when people expect people to lift them up instead of they're lifting lift them up instead of they're lifting lift them up instead of they're lifting other people up. I say it's the opposite other people up. I say it's the opposite other people up. I say it's the opposite of the incarnation and and I don't think of the incarnation and and I don't think of the incarnation and and I don't think it works well in business. Matter of it works well in business. Matter of it works well in business. Matter of fact, business servant leadership is in fact, business servant leadership is in fact, business servant leadership is in my opinion more popular in business than my opinion more popular in business than my opinion more popular in business than it is in ministry.

it is in ministry. it is in ministry. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty It's not a Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty It's not a Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty It's not a foreign concept. foreign concept. foreign concept. No. No. In other words, they're going, No. No. In other words, they're going, No. No. In other words, they're going, "Man, if these people do well, I do "Man, if these people do well, I do "Man, if these people do well, I do well." And And so, so on that one, I well." And And so, so on that one, I well." And And so, so on that one, I just think that stuff that stuff is just think that stuff that stuff is just think that stuff that stuff is really destructive. And really destructive. And really destructive. And Yeah. So, you said there were a couple Yeah. So, you said there were a couple Yeah. So, you said there were a couple of things that you've seen in colleagues of things that you've seen in colleagues of things that you've seen in colleagues or peers who didn't finish well or who or peers who didn't finish well or who or peers who didn't finish well or who phased out or fiddled out. phased out or fiddled out. phased out or fiddled out. Yeah. Yeah. The other one, the other one Yeah. Yeah. The other one, the other one Yeah. Yeah. The other one, the other one is um well, put it this way. I've had a is um well, put it this way. I've had a is um well, put it this way. I've had a lot of convers I get a lot of phone lot of convers I get a lot of phone lot of convers I get a lot of phone calls going okay I'm 60 I'm kind of am I calls going okay I'm 60 I'm kind of am I calls going okay I'm 60 I'm kind of am I done all this kind of stuff and pretty done all this kind of stuff and pretty done all this kind of stuff and pretty much what I'm saying is you're done you much what I'm saying is you're done you much what I'm saying is you're done you number I'm saying first of all you're number I'm saying first of all you're number I'm saying first of all you're done when there's four things number one done when there's four things number one done when there's four things number one you're done if you've lost your fast you're done if you've lost your fast you're done if you've lost your fast ball ball ball and other people will tell you that and and other people will tell you that and and other people will tell you that and you have to listen to them okay now it's you have to listen to them okay now it's you have to listen to them okay now it's got to be people without a motive but got to be people without a motive but got to be people without a motive but other people will tell you that so if other people will tell you that so if other people will tell you that so if you've done it watch fast. Second is you've done it watch fast. Second is you've done it watch fast. Second is you're done if you've lost energy and you're done if you've lost energy and you're done if you've lost energy and you can't get it back.

you can't get it back. you can't get it back. Um, we all lose energy, but you can get Um, we all lose energy, but you can get Um, we all lose energy, but you can get it back. A matter of fact, half of you it back. A matter of fact, half of you it back. A matter of fact, half of you listen to this podcast hoping for a shot listen to this podcast hoping for a shot listen to this podcast hoping for a shot of energy. Good job. of energy. Good job. of energy. Good job. The third is you've lost vision and you The third is you've lost vision and you The third is you've lost vision and you can't get it back. can't get it back. can't get it back. You're done. Okay. Or the other one, and You're done. Okay. Or the other one, and You're done. Okay. Or the other one, and it's a little more rare, is um there's it's a little more rare, is um there's it's a little more rare, is um there's something else you want to invest in. something else you want to invest in. something else you want to invest in. grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, whatever it is. No. Now, so whatever it is. No. Now, so whatever it is. No. Now, so leadership podcast. leadership podcast. leadership podcast. Exactly. Um, however, that's Exactly. Um, however, that's Exactly. Um, however, that's that's signs you're done. However, no, that's signs you're done. However, no, that's signs you're done. However, no, if if you're 50 something, if you're 55 if if you're 50 something, if you're 55 if if you're 50 something, if you're 55 plus, okay, you probably are sharper plus, okay, you probably are sharper plus, okay, you probably are sharper than Edger. Matter of fact, Car, I'm than Edger. Matter of fact, Car, I'm than Edger. Matter of fact, Car, I'm going to I told you about this earlier. going to I told you about this earlier. going to I told you about this earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Do read that. This is We We Yeah. Yeah. Do read that. This is We We Yeah. Yeah. Do read that. This is We We chatted way too long before we started chatted way too long before we started chatted way too long before we started recording. recording. recording. I read this this week. It's two studies. I read this this week. It's two studies. I read this this week. It's two studies. One of them from the New England Journal One of them from the New England Journal One of them from the New England Journal of Medicine said this. Um the um an of Medicine said this. Um the um an of Medicine said this. Um the um an extensive study in the USA found the extensive study in the USA found the extensive study in the USA found the most productive age in human life is most productive age in human life is most productive age in human life is between 60 and 70 years of age. Okay.

between 60 and 70 years of age. Okay. between 60 and 70 years of age. Okay. The second most productive stage is 70 The second most productive stage is 70 The second most productive stage is 70 to 80. Some of you just getting rolling. to 80. Some of you just getting rolling. to 80. Some of you just getting rolling. The third most productive is 50 to 60. The third most productive is 50 to 60. The third most productive is 50 to 60. The average age of a Nobel Prize winner The average age of a Nobel Prize winner The average age of a Nobel Prize winner is 62. Average age of presidents and is 62. Average age of presidents and is 62. Average age of presidents and companies is 63. The average uh the companies is 63. The average uh the companies is 63. The average uh the average age of pastors of the hundred average age of pastors of the hundred average age of pastors of the hundred largest church in the US is 71. The largest church in the US is 71. The largest church in the US is 71. The average age of popes is 76. So if you're average age of popes is 76. So if you're average age of popes is 76. So if you're going to run for pope, you got time. Um going to run for pope, you got time. Um going to run for pope, you got time. Um and the in other words, that tells us and the in other words, that tells us and the in other words, that tells us the way it's been determined the best the way it's been determined the best the way it's been determined the best years of your life are between 60 and years of your life are between 60 and years of your life are between 60 and 80. Okay? And and and matter in fact, we 80. Okay? And and and matter in fact, we 80. Okay? And and and matter in fact, we just had John Maxwell speak at our just had John Maxwell speak at our just had John Maxwell speak at our Thrive conference. Okay? And he's coming Thrive conference. Okay? And he's coming Thrive conference. Okay? And he's coming back this year. Um, he killed it. And back this year. Um, he killed it. And back this year. Um, he killed it. And he's 78 years old. He absolutely killed he's 78 years old. He absolutely killed he's 78 years old. He absolutely killed it. Okay. I mean, we he spoke in four it. Okay. I mean, we he spoke in four it. Okay. I mean, we he spoke in four different settings. And I I've known different settings. And I I've known different settings. And I I've known John for a long time. I was at his 60th John for a long time. I was at his 60th John for a long time. I was at his 60th birthday party. We've golfed together. birthday party. We've golfed together. birthday party. We've golfed together. Um, I've been listening to this guy for Um, I've been listening to this guy for Um, I've been listening to this guy for years. And I'm watching him. I was with years. And I'm watching him. I was with years. And I'm watching him. I was with him at all four settings. And I'm going, him at all four settings. And I'm going, him at all four settings. And I'm going, he's better at 78 than he was at 70.

he's better at 78 than he was at 70. he's better at 78 than he was at 70. He's better at 78 than he was at 50 or He's better at 78 than he was at 50 or He's better at 78 than he was at 50 or 45 or 60. Who gets better at 78? We've 45 or 60. Who gets better at 78? We've 45 or 60. Who gets better at 78? We've been so conditioned to think that you been so conditioned to think that you been so conditioned to think that you turn 60 and you're done. Okay. I'm going turn 60 and you're done. Okay. I'm going turn 60 and you're done. Okay. I'm going Maxwell is better at 78 than he's ever Maxwell is better at 78 than he's ever Maxwell is better at 78 than he's ever been. I was shocked. Okay. And so I like been. I was shocked. Okay. And so I like been. I was shocked. Okay. And so I like literally we talked to our whole staff. literally we talked to our whole staff. literally we talked to our whole staff. Who do you want back? Maxwell and you if Who do you want back? Maxwell and you if Who do you want back? Maxwell and you if you stay healthy. you stay healthy. you stay healthy. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm going to be healthy Yeah. I'm I'm I'm going to be healthy Yeah. I'm I'm I'm going to be healthy next year. That's my plan. next year. That's my plan. next year. That's my plan. And then what happened? turn 60, end up And then what happened? turn 60, end up And then what happened? turn 60, end up in the hospital. But that's a in the hospital. But that's a in the hospital. But that's a aberration. aberration. aberration. Yeah. So, what I'm saying, a lot of you Yeah. So, what I'm saying, a lot of you Yeah. So, what I'm saying, a lot of you that are 55 plus, that are 55 plus, that are 55 plus, you haven't lost your fast ball. You're you haven't lost your fast ball. You're you haven't lost your fast ball. You're good as ever. You're smarter than ever. good as ever. You're smarter than ever. good as ever. You're smarter than ever. Okay. And however, that doesn't mean Okay. And however, that doesn't mean Okay. And however, that doesn't mean you're going to dominate for the next you're going to dominate for the next you're going to dominate for the next bunch of years because every church in bunch of years because every church in bunch of years because every church in America needs two things. Okay? They America needs two things. Okay? They America needs two things. Okay? They need stability and they need a great need stability and they need a great need stability and they need a great next 30 years. next 30 years. next 30 years. And they need a great next 30 years. And they need a great next 30 years. And they need a great next 30 years. You're the stability.

You're the stability. You're the stability. Someone else has to be the next great 30 Someone else has to be the next great 30 Someone else has to be the next great 30 years. So the ultimate question is even years. So the ultimate question is even years. So the ultimate question is even if somebody else is getting more press if somebody else is getting more press if somebody else is getting more press and more credit than I am, am I so and more credit than I am, am I so and more credit than I am, am I so excited about the next 30 years and the excited about the next 30 years and the excited about the next 30 years and the thing I started and built continuing to thing I started and built continuing to thing I started and built continuing to be better and better and better, then be better and better and better, then be better and better and better, then I've got to be humble enough to bring in I've got to be humble enough to bring in I've got to be humble enough to bring in worldclass people. They've got to have worldclass people. They've got to have worldclass people. They've got to have they've got to be my number one cheering they've got to be my number one cheering they've got to be my number one cheering fan and want me around and I've got to fan and want me around and I've got to fan and want me around and I've got to be their number one support and my ego be their number one support and my ego be their number one support and my ego needs have got to be met by other people needs have got to be met by other people needs have got to be met by other people doing really well instead of me getting doing really well instead of me getting doing really well instead of me getting the spotlight. the spotlight. the spotlight. Okay. So, on that note, how many Okay. So, on that note, how many Okay. So, on that note, how many locations does Bayside have right now? locations does Bayside have right now? locations does Bayside have right now? We just we just adopted a church this We just we just adopted a church this We just we just adopted a church this weekend and I think it's nine or 10. weekend and I think it's nine or 10. weekend and I think it's nine or 10. Nine or 10 roughly attendance on the Nine or 10 roughly attendance on the Nine or 10 roughly attendance on the weekend. You got weekend. You got weekend. You got Oh gosh, I don't even know. I This 15 15 Oh gosh, I don't even know. I This 15 15 Oh gosh, I don't even know. I This 15 15 16 17 18,000 I don't know. 16 17 18,000 I don't know. 16 17 18,000 I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Christmas. Christmas. Christmas. One of the things One of the things One of the things was 49,000.

was 49,000. was 49,000. What a million services. Next day we're What a million services. Next day we're What a million services. Next day we're waking up going Christ has risen. We're waking up going Christ has risen. We're waking up going Christ has risen. We're all dead. The thing that amazes me cuz I've spent The thing that amazes me cuz I've spent time at Bayside. I've hung out with some time at Bayside. I've hung out with some time at Bayside. I've hung out with some of your lead pastors. Um, you said of your lead pastors. Um, you said of your lead pastors. Um, you said something earlier that most senior something earlier that most senior something earlier that most senior pastors, founding pastors would never pastors, founding pastors would never pastors, founding pastors would never say, "I want them to preach. I don't say, "I want them to preach. I don't say, "I want them to preach. I don't need to preach." need to preach." need to preach." Yep. What What is behind that? And I Yep. What What is behind that? And I Yep. What What is behind that? And I think that ties into your comment. I'm think that ties into your comment. I'm think that ties into your comment. I'm not the race car. What if they're all not the race car. What if they're all not the race car. What if they're all race cars? Right. And I think that's race cars? Right. And I think that's race cars? Right. And I think that's what Brad Lick would agree. I would what Brad Lick would agree. I would what Brad Lick would agree. I would agree. Mark Clark would agree. All those agree. Mark Clark would agree. All those agree. Mark Clark would agree. All those people who knew Bayside Inside Out would people who knew Bayside Inside Out would people who knew Bayside Inside Out would agree. You've you've got a lot of agree. You've you've got a lot of agree. You've you've got a lot of leaders there, leaders there, leaders there, not doers. Um preachers, they all not doers. Um preachers, they all not doers. Um preachers, they all preach, they all teach, they all lead. preach, they all teach, they all lead. preach, they all teach, they all lead. Why? Why? Why? Why do they stay? Why did you set it up Why do they stay? Why did you set it up Why do they stay? Why did you set it up that way? Cuz a lot of people would kind that way? Cuz a lot of people would kind that way? Cuz a lot of people would kind of You're here to serve me.

of You're here to serve me. of You're here to serve me. Um full disclosure, that's what I want Um full disclosure, that's what I want Um full disclosure, that's what I want to set up, but it's to set up, but it's to set up, but it's You know what I mean? Like, You know what I mean? Like, You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I get it. All right. Let's be yeah, I get it. All right. Let's be yeah, I get it. All right. Let's be honest. honest. honest. You know, like um You know, like um You know, like um so you want to set it like that desire so you want to set it like that desire so you want to set it like that desire is in you. is in you. is in you. You have to be have enough You have to be have enough You have to be have enough self-awareness self-awareness self-awareness like like like like I'm in a meeting a while back. like I'm in a meeting a while back. like I'm in a meeting a while back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we had this one guy on our staff And we had this one guy on our staff And we had this one guy on our staff that was talking way too much in that was talking way too much in that was talking way too much in meetings. Okay. And we had about 12 meetings. Okay. And we had about 12 meetings. Okay. And we had about 12 people, 15 people in the office. And so people, 15 people in the office. And so people, 15 people in the office. And so I went I'm going to prove to this guy I went I'm going to prove to this guy I went I'm going to prove to this guy he's talking too much. So I wrote he's talking too much. So I wrote he's talking too much. So I wrote everybody's I didn't tell anybody. I had everybody's I didn't tell anybody. I had everybody's I didn't tell anybody. I had eight F by limited paper notebooks. And eight F by limited paper notebooks. And eight F by limited paper notebooks. And so wherever the conversation went, I so wherever the conversation went, I so wherever the conversation went, I drew it. Okay? So somebody talks line drew it. Okay? So somebody talks line drew it. Okay? So somebody talks line there, somebody talks line there, there, somebody talks line there, there, somebody talks line there, somebody talks line there. So I did this somebody talks line there. So I did this somebody talks line there. So I did this whole thing. And at the end of this whole thing. And at the end of this whole thing. And at the end of this whole thing, I went, I'm going to have a whole thing, I went, I'm going to have a whole thing, I went, I'm going to have a conversation with this guy cuz he talks conversation with this guy cuz he talks conversation with this guy cuz he talks too much. And sure enough, there was a too much. And sure enough, there was a too much. And sure enough, there was a there was like a freeway going to his there was like a freeway going to his there was like a freeway going to his name. Okay. However, there was a wider name. Okay. However, there was a wider name. Okay. However, there was a wider freeway going to my name. And I freeway going to my name. And I freeway going to my name. And I literally went literally went literally went I I went I want to be the guy in the I I went I want to be the guy in the I I went I want to be the guy in the room that has all the wisdom and all the room that has all the wisdom and all the room that has all the wisdom and all the best ideas and everybody listens to me best ideas and everybody listens to me best ideas and everybody listens to me and thinks I'm amazing and maybe I and thinks I'm amazing and maybe I and thinks I'm amazing and maybe I should just shut up and let people talk should just shut up and let people talk should just shut up and let people talk more. Okay. If you talk to my staff, more. Okay. If you talk to my staff, more. Okay. If you talk to my staff, they'd say Ray probably hasn't mastered they'd say Ray probably hasn't mastered they'd say Ray probably hasn't mastered that yet, but at least I'm aware of it.

that yet, but at least I'm aware of it. that yet, but at least I'm aware of it. Um the Yeah. I haven't preached on Um the Yeah. I haven't preached on Um the Yeah. I haven't preached on Christmas or Easter in a decade. Christmas or Easter in a decade. Christmas or Easter in a decade. Okay. Okay. Okay. 10 years. 10 years. 10 years. Yeah. And the worst part is Carrie, Yeah. And the worst part is Carrie, Yeah. And the worst part is Carrie, nobody's complained. Um the um and when nobody's complained. Um the um and when nobody's complained. Um the um and when and somebody asked me they go you rarely and somebody asked me they go you rarely and somebody asked me they go you rarely preach why here's my answer. Mark Clerk, preach why here's my answer. Mark Clerk, preach why here's my answer. Mark Clerk, Kurt Harlo, Jason Kaine, Michael Metaf, Kurt Harlo, Jason Kaine, Michael Metaf, Kurt Harlo, Jason Kaine, Michael Metaf, Andrew McCort, Kevin Thompson, Brandon Andrew McCort, Kevin Thompson, Brandon Andrew McCort, Kevin Thompson, Brandon Short, Dena Davidson, Morgan Mr. Wesley Short, Dena Davidson, Morgan Mr. Wesley Short, Dena Davidson, Morgan Mr. Wesley Town, Cameron Wells, Scott Johnson, Town, Cameron Wells, Scott Johnson, Town, Cameron Wells, Scott Johnson, Colton Tucker. Every time I preach, Colton Tucker. Every time I preach, Colton Tucker. Every time I preach, they're incredible. One of them doesn't they're incredible. One of them doesn't they're incredible. One of them doesn't get to Okay. And and so I I think so get to Okay. And and so I I think so get to Okay. And and so I I think so number number one is um every time I number number one is um every time I number number one is um every time I preach somebody does not get to preach preach somebody does not get to preach preach somebody does not get to preach that is gifted to preach and is rising that is gifted to preach and is rising that is gifted to preach and is rising and is going to be the next 30 years. and is going to be the next 30 years. and is going to be the next 30 years. Okay. And and so and so for me it's Okay. And and so and so for me it's Okay. And and so and so for me it's about do you want I want long-term about do you want I want long-term about do you want I want long-term sustainability and lower dependence on sustainability and lower dependence on sustainability and lower dependence on me even though I don't want to be kicked me even though I don't want to be kicked me even though I don't want to be kicked out of this place.

out of this place. out of this place. What other conditions do you need to set What other conditions do you need to set What other conditions do you need to set up? So leaders, true leaders, capital L up? So leaders, true leaders, capital L up? So leaders, true leaders, capital L leaders, people who want to communicate, leaders, people who want to communicate, leaders, people who want to communicate, people who want to contribute, people people who want to contribute, people people who want to contribute, people who could be leading very large who could be leading very large who could be leading very large megaurches themselves on their own and megaurches themselves on their own and megaurches themselves on their own and who in some cases did right before they who in some cases did right before they who in some cases did right before they joined your team. I mean, Mark, who's joined your team. I mean, Mark, who's joined your team. I mean, Mark, who's been a buddy of mine for years, he was been a buddy of mine for years, he was been a buddy of mine for years, he was leading a church of 5,000 in Vancouver, leading a church of 5,000 in Vancouver, leading a church of 5,000 in Vancouver, one of the biggest churches in my one of the biggest churches in my one of the biggest churches in my country, Canada. comes down to work at country, Canada. comes down to work at country, Canada. comes down to work at Bayside. Really hard to attract and keep Bayside. Really hard to attract and keep Bayside. Really hard to attract and keep those leaders without saying, "Oh, and those leaders without saying, "Oh, and those leaders without saying, "Oh, and by the way, you're the new senior by the way, you're the new senior by the way, you're the new senior pastor. I'm stepping out." Right? You've pastor. I'm stepping out." Right? You've pastor. I'm stepping out." Right? You've got a role on the team. That's really got a role on the team. That's really got a role on the team. That's really difficult to do. So, for leaders who are difficult to do. So, for leaders who are difficult to do. So, for leaders who are looking to build that kind of um stable looking to build that kind of um stable looking to build that kind of um stable of true leaders, what are the conditions of true leaders, what are the conditions of true leaders, what are the conditions that make people like that list of names that make people like that list of names that make people like that list of names stay and thrive? stay and thrive? stay and thrive? Uh first of all, you have to hire the Uh first of all, you have to hire the Uh first of all, you have to hire the right people in the first place. Yeah. right people in the first place. Yeah. right people in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean, cuz if they want your job, you have a cuz if they want your job, you have a cuz if they want your job, you have a mutiny.

mutiny. mutiny. Exactly. And Yeah. So, that's a that's Exactly. And Yeah. So, that's a that's Exactly. And Yeah. So, that's a that's probably a future. We should do a thing probably a future. We should do a thing probably a future. We should do a thing on staffing sometime. on staffing sometime. on staffing sometime. Yeah. We I you know what? We're we're Yeah. We I you know what? We're we're Yeah. We I you know what? We're we're not getting to any of my questions. So, not getting to any of my questions. So, not getting to any of my questions. So, unfortunately, this is not your last unfortunately, this is not your last unfortunately, this is not your last appearance. appearance. appearance. This talking to you, it's a blast. Um This talking to you, it's a blast. Um This talking to you, it's a blast. Um the the the um the um the um the it's either my church or it's our it's either my church or it's our it's either my church or it's our church. Mhm. church. Mhm. church. Mhm. And that doesn't just go for like And that doesn't just go for like And that doesn't just go for like there's senior pastors. They're on our there's senior pastors. They're on our there's senior pastors. They're on our campus. Okay. However, I don't know. campus. Okay. However, I don't know. campus. Okay. However, I don't know. However, they're senior pastors. They're However, they're senior pastors. They're However, they're senior pastors. They're on their campus. on their campus. on their campus. However, they're all part of our campus. However, they're all part of our campus. However, they're all part of our campus. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I control the preaching schedule and And I control the preaching schedule and And I control the preaching schedule and everybody's willing to submit to that. everybody's willing to submit to that. everybody's willing to submit to that. They're all preaching at their campus They're all preaching at their campus They're all preaching at their campus twice a month. Sometimes three, but twice a month. Sometimes three, but twice a month. Sometimes three, but that's rare. Then they're preaching at that's rare. Then they're preaching at that's rare. Then they're preaching at one of our other campuses. Um, which one of our other campuses. Um, which one of our other campuses. Um, which means everybody gets, it's kind of a means everybody gets, it's kind of a means everybody gets, it's kind of a cool thing. Everybody gets exposure. All cool thing. Everybody gets exposure. All cool thing. Everybody gets exposure. All the sermons are prepared together. Okay. the sermons are prepared together. Okay. the sermons are prepared together. Okay. Our staff, all of our staffs meet every Our staff, all of our staffs meet every Our staff, all of our staffs meet every Wednesday. It's a ball. It's an hour Wednesday. It's a ball. It's an hour Wednesday. It's a ball. It's an hour long. It is worship because it's really long. It is worship because it's really long. It is worship because it's really hard to worship in our own church. I'm hard to worship in our own church. I'm hard to worship in our own church. I'm trying to worship and I'm going, "What's trying to worship and I'm going, "What's trying to worship and I'm going, "What's that usher doing?" You know, meeting that usher doing?" You know, meeting that usher doing?" You know, meeting when everybody gets to worship. There's when everybody gets to worship. There's when everybody gets to worship. There's usually a great 15-minute devotional. We usually a great 15-minute devotional. We usually a great 15-minute devotional. We throw it open. Um, we one guy came on throw it open. Um, we one guy came on throw it open. Um, we one guy came on our staff. We were recruiting this guy.

our staff. We were recruiting this guy. our staff. We were recruiting this guy. He came to our staff meeting and a guy He came to our staff meeting and a guy He came to our staff meeting and a guy named Colton Tucker got up and great named Colton Tucker got up and great named Colton Tucker got up and great guy. Um Colton Tucker got up and said, guy. Um Colton Tucker got up and said, guy. Um Colton Tucker got up and said, "I'm so excited. My wife and I are "I'm so excited. My wife and I are "I'm so excited. My wife and I are expecting our first baby." The place expecting our first baby." The place expecting our first baby." The place went nuts. Standing ovation and he said, went nuts. Standing ovation and he said, went nuts. Standing ovation and he said, "I want to be part of this." "I want to be part of this." "I want to be part of this." Okay. And so some of it you build this Okay. And so some of it you build this Okay. And so some of it you build this family, okay? And and you you bu So we family, okay? And and you you bu So we family, okay? And and you you bu So we have a thing called Thrive College where have a thing called Thrive College where have a thing called Thrive College where it's the first couple years of college it's the first couple years of college it's the first couple years of college and but they we also train her to be and but they we also train her to be and but they we also train her to be leaders. And our last staff chapel this leaders. And our last staff chapel this leaders. And our last staff chapel this year, Thrive College, um we had a couple year, Thrive College, um we had a couple year, Thrive College, um we had a couple kids share. It was so good. We just said kids share. It was so good. We just said kids share. It was so good. We just said pass the mic. The entire staff meeting pass the mic. The entire staff meeting pass the mic. The entire staff meeting was Thrive College kids standing up was Thrive College kids standing up was Thrive College kids standing up sharing. Some of them in tears about how sharing. Some of them in tears about how sharing. Some of them in tears about how their life had changed. I mean, pretty their life had changed. I mean, pretty their life had changed. I mean, pretty incredible stuff. Um instead of me incredible stuff. Um instead of me incredible stuff. Um instead of me getting up and making a bunch of getting up and making a bunch of getting up and making a bunch of announcements about whatever. Um announcements about whatever. Um announcements about whatever. Um so, so to do that, you have to die to so, so to do that, you have to die to so, so to do that, you have to die to your ego. your ego. your ego. How are you dying to your ego? How are you dying to your ego? How are you dying to your ego? I'll give you an example. Our all of our I'll give you an example. Our all of our I'll give you an example. Our all of our pastors um are on a team. The highest pastors um are on a team. The highest pastors um are on a team. The highest thing in the organization is our senior thing in the organization is our senior thing in the organization is our senior pastors. Okay?

pastors. Okay? pastors. Okay? For example, we don't hire a pastor For example, we don't hire a pastor For example, we don't hire a pastor without them coming in and being without them coming in and being without them coming in and being interviewed in that room. There's a interviewed in that room. There's a interviewed in that room. There's a famous story. Um I had this guy, good famous story. Um I had this guy, good famous story. Um I had this guy, good leader, great guy, good communicator. We leader, great guy, good communicator. We leader, great guy, good communicator. We were going to hire this guy. He's going were going to hire this guy. He's going were going to hire this guy. He's going to take the hill. And I was literally to take the hill. And I was literally to take the hill. And I was literally going, "This guy's awesome." Okay. And going, "This guy's awesome." Okay. And going, "This guy's awesome." Okay. And so I had already met with the guy and so I had already met with the guy and so I had already met with the guy and then I was out of town when our pastor then I was out of town when our pastor then I was out of town when our pastor meeting happened and they met and they meeting happened and they met and they meeting happened and they met and they called me and went, "Nope." called me and went, "Nope." called me and went, "Nope." Well, so they told you. Well, so they told you. Well, so they told you. Oh, yeah. They told me, "We don't think Oh, yeah. They told me, "We don't think Oh, yeah. They told me, "We don't think they said not our guy." It's happened they said not our guy." It's happened they said not our guy." It's happened more than once. Happened recently. Um, more than once. Happened recently. Um, more than once. Happened recently. Um, not our guy. And um, and I said, "Why?" not our guy. And um, and I said, "Why?" not our guy. And um, and I said, "Why?" And they said, "Just culture doesn't And they said, "Just culture doesn't And they said, "Just culture doesn't feel like us. is just not not a fit for feel like us. is just not not a fit for feel like us. is just not not a fit for us. And I went, "Okay." So, I have no us. And I went, "Okay." So, I have no us. And I went, "Okay." So, I have no ability to hire a pastor at our at our ability to hire a pastor at our at our ability to hire a pastor at our at our church without they hire whoever our church without they hire whoever our church without they hire whoever our future senior pastors are going to be.

future senior pastors are going to be. future senior pastors are going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, which means it's their church, Okay. Um, which means it's their church, Okay. Um, which means it's their church, not just my church. I'm part of that not just my church. I'm part of that not just my church. I'm part of that circle and I might have some influence circle and I might have some influence circle and I might have some influence on it. Um, but they know it's their on it. Um, but they know it's their on it. Um, but they know it's their their it's their campus. It is. However, their it's their campus. It is. However, their it's their campus. It is. However, what we say is we're looking for really what we say is we're looking for really what we say is we're looking for really strong leaders that are able to play in strong leaders that are able to play in strong leaders that are able to play in a sandbox with other leaders. a sandbox with other leaders. a sandbox with other leaders. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, small leaders whose ego is in check. So, small leaders whose ego is in check. So, small leaders whose ego is in check. Okay. And Okay. And Okay. And totally get that and that's a great totally get that and that's a great totally get that and that's a great story. But there is something in you story. But there is something in you story. But there is something in you that a lot of leaders I know haven't that a lot of leaders I know haven't that a lot of leaders I know haven't done. And it is sort of that death to done. And it is sort of that death to done. And it is sort of that death to self, that death to ego, like to get to self, that death to ego, like to get to self, that death to ego, like to get to that place where you just allow a group that place where you just allow a group that place where you just allow a group of leaders that you hired to tell you, of leaders that you hired to tell you, of leaders that you hired to tell you, nah, you got the wrong guy, Ray. Um, I'm nah, you got the wrong guy, Ray. Um, I'm nah, you got the wrong guy, Ray. Um, I'm not sure that would be easy for a lot of not sure that would be easy for a lot of not sure that would be easy for a lot of people. So I want to know what were the people. So I want to know what were the people. So I want to know what were the moments, milestones, disciplines moments, milestones, disciplines moments, milestones, disciplines that have led you to a place where at that have led you to a place where at that have led you to a place where at this stage in your life that is your this stage in your life that is your this stage in your life that is your approach because we can point to other approach because we can point to other approach because we can point to other people your age and stage who are doing people your age and stage who are doing people your age and stage who are doing the opposite who is like no it is about the opposite who is like no it is about the opposite who is like no it is about me and I'm milking this thing as long as me and I'm milking this thing as long as me and I'm milking this thing as long as I possibly can. I I just I just want to I possibly can. I I just I just want to I possibly can. I I just I just want to know like what how do you check your know like what how do you check your know like what how do you check your motivations?

motivations? motivations? Um, Um, Um, at some point, that's a great question. at some point, that's a great question. at some point, that's a great question. At some point, it's got to be, well, another way to everything in life well, another way to everything in life is outcomes. Like, like went like I get is outcomes. Like, like went like I get is outcomes. Like, like went like I get calls from churches going happened calls from churches going happened calls from churches going happened recently. What do we do? Senior pastor recently. What do we do? Senior pastor recently. What do we do? Senior pastor crisis with this direct church of a crisis with this direct church of a crisis with this direct church of a couple thousand people. And I literally couple thousand people. And I literally couple thousand people. And I literally said, "Okay, we're going to have an said, "Okay, we're going to have an said, "Okay, we're going to have an hourong conversation. Let's get your hourong conversation. Let's get your hourong conversation. Let's get your outcomes clear. outcomes clear. outcomes clear. And when you get the outcomes clear, And when you get the outcomes clear, And when you get the outcomes clear, that then tells you what to do. And in that then tells you what to do. And in that then tells you what to do. And in their case is their first outcome was their case is their first outcome was their case is their first outcome was let's not do this in a way that blows up let's not do this in a way that blows up let's not do this in a way that blows up the church. So they did what they needed the church. So they did what they needed the church. So they did what they needed to do over a year instead of reacting. to do over a year instead of reacting. to do over a year instead of reacting. Okay. Um for me the outcome is thriving Okay. Um for me the outcome is thriving Okay. Um for me the outcome is thriving churches and healthy campuses. Um we churches and healthy campuses. Um we churches and healthy campuses. Um we want every campus to be a thriving place want every campus to be a thriving place want every campus to be a thriving place and a healthy place which means we need and a healthy place which means we need and a healthy place which means we need to make that happen. We need great to make that happen. We need great to make that happen. We need great pastors who are team players. Okay. And pastors who are team players. Okay. And pastors who are team players. Okay. And they're not going to be team players if they're not going to be team players if they're not going to be team players if I'm not.

I'm not. I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure it's so much, oh, Ray so I'm not sure it's so much, oh, Ray so I'm not sure it's so much, oh, Ray so humble. I think it's more for the for humble. I think it's more for the for humble. I think it's more for the for the out some outcomes are just more the out some outcomes are just more the out some outcomes are just more important than other outcomes. You know, important than other outcomes. You know, important than other outcomes. You know, my ego needs being met is not a very my ego needs being met is not a very my ego needs being met is not a very high level outcome. An outcome where high level outcome. An outcome where high level outcome. An outcome where this whole thing does really well like this whole thing does really well like this whole thing does really well like Mark Clark coming in. Okay. He's like a Mark Clark coming in. Okay. He's like a Mark Clark coming in. Okay. He's like a gift. He's like a responsibility. So is gift. He's like a responsibility. So is gift. He's like a responsibility. So is so is the rest of the folks I read. so is the rest of the folks I read. so is the rest of the folks I read. They're amazing gifts. My my outcome They're amazing gifts. My my outcome They're amazing gifts. My my outcome with those guys is like Mark I think God with those guys is like Mark I think God with those guys is like Mark I think God sent Mark to California because all of sent Mark to California because all of sent Mark to California because all of Canada is already listening to him. I Canada is already listening to him. I Canada is already listening to him. I think I think he and Christine Kane said think I think he and Christine Kane said think I think he and Christine Kane said the same thing about him. She said I the same thing about him. She said I the same thing about him. She said I think he's the voice for apologetics for think he's the voice for apologetics for think he's the voice for apologetics for the next generation. the next generation. the next generation. I agree 100% agree. point. I think he is I agree 100% agree. point. I think he is I agree 100% agree. point. I think he is going to be the going to be the going to be the the least trouble people listen to for the least trouble people listen to for the least trouble people listen to for the next 30 years. the next 30 years. the next 30 years. Yeah. Mark's like early mid-4s. And the Yeah. Mark's like early mid-4s. And the Yeah. Mark's like early mid-4s. And the the thing that amazes me and it's really the thing that amazes me and it's really the thing that amazes me and it's really through Mark that I've gotten to know through Mark that I've gotten to know through Mark that I've gotten to know you very well over the last three or you very well over the last three or you very well over the last three or four years that we've spent a lot of four years that we've spent a lot of four years that we've spent a lot of time together because Mark's been a time together because Mark's been a time together because Mark's been a friend for a long time. Um when I hear friend for a long time. Um when I hear friend for a long time. Um when I hear you talk about him and I remember when you talk about him and I remember when you talk about him and I remember when you were recruiting him, we had lunch at you were recruiting him, we had lunch at you were recruiting him, we had lunch at an airport. You remember that meal? It an airport. You remember that meal? It an airport. You remember that meal? It was uh you were talking about him the was uh you were talking about him the was uh you were talking about him the way a father talks about a son. And you way a father talks about a son. And you way a father talks about a son. And you know you I've heard you when he packs know you I've heard you when he packs know you I've heard you when he packs out Christmas in a way that honestly

out Christmas in a way that honestly out Christmas in a way that honestly just you probably wouldn't pack out just you probably wouldn't pack out just you probably wouldn't pack out Christmas. I wouldn't pack out Christmas. I wouldn't pack out Christmas. I wouldn't pack out Christmas. When Mark does it, you are Christmas. When Mark does it, you are Christmas. When Mark does it, you are the most excited person in the room. the most excited person in the room. the most excited person in the room. There seems to be something that you There seems to be something that you There seems to be something that you have done cuz we all have it in us that have done cuz we all have it in us that have done cuz we all have it in us that say, "Wow, I wish I could pack it out say, "Wow, I wish I could pack it out say, "Wow, I wish I could pack it out like that. I wish I was that good. I like that. I wish I was that good. I like that. I wish I was that good. I wish I was. And I mean, I do my wish I was. And I mean, I do my wish I was. And I mean, I do my preaching course with Mark and I think preaching course with Mark and I think preaching course with Mark and I think one of the the the joys of that course one of the the the joys of that course one of the the the joys of that course is we're just we're great friends, but is we're just we're great friends, but is we're just we're great friends, but we're so different. Like my approach is we're so different. Like my approach is we're so different. Like my approach is so linear and dedactic and progress, you so linear and dedactic and progress, you so linear and dedactic and progress, you know, and he's just like, I don't know know, and he's just like, I don't know know, and he's just like, I don't know what's going on, but it's amazing and what's going on, but it's amazing and what's going on, but it's amazing and it's brilliant. And, you know, it's like it's brilliant. And, you know, it's like it's brilliant. And, you know, it's like Vince von Tim Keller had a baby kind of Vince von Tim Keller had a baby kind of Vince von Tim Keller had a baby kind of thing, you know, he's that kind of vibe. thing, you know, he's that kind of vibe. thing, you know, he's that kind of vibe. And um and so I just I really And um and so I just I really And um and so I just I really Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's entertaining, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's entertaining, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's entertaining, he's funny, he's street smart, and he's he's funny, he's street smart, and he's he's funny, he's street smart, and he's killer sharp. And that's a really rare killer sharp. And that's a really rare killer sharp. And that's a really rare combination. But what I want to know is combination. But what I want to know is combination. But what I want to know is like Andy Stanley told me years ago, and like Andy Stanley told me years ago, and like Andy Stanley told me years ago, and I know you know Andy, but he just said, I know you know Andy, but he just said, I know you know Andy, but he just said, you know, if you want to get over envy you know, if you want to get over envy you know, if you want to get over envy and jealousy, celebrate what God has and jealousy, celebrate what God has and jealousy, celebrate what God has given uh celebrate what God has given given uh celebrate what God has given given uh celebrate what God has given other people. Leverage what God has other people. Leverage what God has other people. Leverage what God has given you. I'm going to celebrate your given you. I'm going to celebrate your given you. I'm going to celebrate your gift. I'm going to leverage what God has gift. I'm going to leverage what God has gift. I'm going to leverage what God has given me. And God gave me numbers and given me. And God gave me numbers and given me. And God gave me numbers and bullet points. God gave Mark the gift of bullet points. God gave Mark the gift of bullet points. God gave Mark the gift of humor. That's fine. You do that so well.

humor. That's fine. You do that so well. humor. That's fine. You do that so well. Like you are like the dad going, "Look Like you are like the dad going, "Look Like you are like the dad going, "Look at my boy. Look at my son. Look at my at my boy. Look at my son. Look at my at my boy. Look at my son. Look at my team." What goes on inside you to to to team." What goes on inside you to to to team." What goes on inside you to to to make that happen cuz I don't see it make that happen cuz I don't see it make that happen cuz I don't see it enough in the church. enough in the church. enough in the church. When number one is almost everybody When number one is almost everybody When number one is almost everybody these days is overattacked and under these days is overattacked and under these days is overattacked and under encouraged. Wouldn't you agree? encouraged. Wouldn't you agree? encouraged. Wouldn't you agree? Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, especially these days, okay, the I mean, especially these days, okay, the I mean, especially these days, okay, the last four years, matter of fact, when last four years, matter of fact, when last four years, matter of fact, when the election rolled around down here, the election rolled around down here, the election rolled around down here, we I said this a hundred times, stop we I said this a hundred times, stop we I said this a hundred times, stop letting politicians you don't know cause letting politicians you don't know cause letting politicians you don't know cause you to hate people you do know. you to hate people you do know. you to hate people you do know. And um I mean it we are in a crazy And um I mean it we are in a crazy And um I mean it we are in a crazy season right now. season right now. season right now. And um and and so I just think the And um and and so I just think the And um and and so I just think the question is this. Would you rather build question is this. Would you rather build question is this. Would you rather build people up, lift people up and have them people up, lift people up and have them people up, lift people up and have them do great or tear people down? And so, do great or tear people down? And so, do great or tear people down? And so, for example, when Mark when Mark got for example, when Mark when Mark got for example, when Mark when Mark got here, you could leave this in or I might here, you could leave this in or I might here, you could leave this in or I might check with Mark. When Mark got here, check with Mark. When Mark got here, check with Mark. When Mark got here, okay, there's a golf club he was going okay, there's a golf club he was going okay, there's a golf club he was going to belong to, which would give him to belong to, which would give him to belong to, which would give him access to all of our people. It was access to all of our people. It was access to all of our people. It was great. And so, I went got on a text great. And so, I went got on a text great. And so, I went got on a text string with a whole bunch of his string with a whole bunch of his string with a whole bunch of his friends, okay? guys that guys that were friends, okay? guys that guys that were friends, okay? guys that guys that were here that loved him and I said let's buy here that loved him and I said let's buy here that loved him and I said let's buy him a golf cart him a golf cart him a golf cart and and we so they're all and I'm going and and we so they're all and I'm going and and we so they're all and I'm going I'm in y'all in boom we buy him a golf I'm in y'all in boom we buy him a golf I'm in y'all in boom we buy him a golf cart and it's got to be a specific type cart and it's got to be a specific type cart and it's got to be a specific type for this place and but he's got his golf for this place and but he's got his golf for this place and but he's got his golf cart he had like a 3minut drive to this

cart he had like a 3minut drive to this cart he had like a 3minut drive to this golf course and golf course and golf course and yeah literally yeah literally yeah literally so I go let's get him a golf cart and so I go let's get him a golf cart and so I go let's get him a golf cart and everybody chips in so we get it we go to everybody chips in so we get it we go to everybody chips in so we get it we go to his house the day and we're going to his house the day and we're going to his house the day and we're going to surprise his family and his daughters. surprise his family and his daughters. surprise his family and his daughters. And um so we go over to the golf course And um so we go over to the golf course And um so we go over to the golf course and we get the ugliest, beat up, dirty, and we get the ugliest, beat up, dirty, and we get the ugliest, beat up, dirty, ranch, shackled, destroyed golf cart. We ranch, shackled, destroyed golf cart. We ranch, shackled, destroyed golf cart. We can pull it in front of his house, put a can pull it in front of his house, put a can pull it in front of his house, put a blanket over it, and we bring the whole blanket over it, and we bring the whole blanket over it, and we bring the whole family out. Hey, we love you guys. We're family out. Hey, we love you guys. We're family out. Hey, we love you guys. We're so glad you moved here. We just thought so glad you moved here. We just thought so glad you moved here. We just thought you could really enjoy a golf cart, you you could really enjoy a golf cart, you you could really enjoy a golf cart, you know. And we ripped the thing off. And know. And we ripped the thing off. And know. And we ripped the thing off. And it was so funny watching his daughters it was so funny watching his daughters it was so funny watching his daughters try to pretend they liked it. try to pretend they liked it. try to pretend they liked it. They were trained well. They were trained well. They were trained well. A real golf cart came driving up. They A real golf cart came driving up. They A real golf cart came driving up. They went nuts. Okay. went nuts. Okay. went nuts. Okay. It's a gorgeous golf cart. He sent me It's a gorgeous golf cart. He sent me It's a gorgeous golf cart. He sent me the video of that. That is the video of that. That is the video of that. That is such a great moment. such a great moment. such a great moment. That's a whole lot more fun to do for That's a whole lot more fun to do for That's a whole lot more fun to do for people people people than trying to figure out ways to keep than trying to figure out ways to keep than trying to figure out ways to keep them from getting too much applause, them from getting too much applause, them from getting too much applause, you know, which just sounds so petty.

you know, which just sounds so petty. you know, which just sounds so petty. Yeah. and and the and so it's that's but Yeah. and and the and so it's that's but Yeah. and and the and so it's that's but all of these folks Kurt Harlo, Jason all of these folks Kurt Harlo, Jason all of these folks Kurt Harlo, Jason Kaine, Michael Metaf, you know, all of Kaine, Michael Metaf, you know, all of Kaine, Michael Metaf, you know, all of these folks um you know like we these folks um you know like we these folks um you know like we introduced we a church has become a introduced we a church has become a introduced we a church has become a Bayside and we introduced that Michael Bayside and we introduced that Michael Bayside and we introduced that Michael Metaf was going to be their pastor. We Metaf was going to be their pastor. We Metaf was going to be their pastor. We introduced that yesterday. Okay. And the introduced that yesterday. Okay. And the introduced that yesterday. Okay. And the place whamo standing ovation. I'm on place whamo standing ovation. I'm on place whamo standing ovation. I'm on stage. First thing I do is I get up and stage. First thing I do is I get up and stage. First thing I do is I get up and I take a video of the whole standing I take a video of the whole standing I take a video of the whole standing ovation because Michael's not there. ovation because Michael's not there. ovation because Michael's not there. Okay. And and the first thing I do is Okay. And and the first thing I do is Okay. And and the first thing I do is send him that. Okay. I just wanted him send him that. Okay. I just wanted him send him that. Okay. I just wanted him to see it. What the Why would you not to see it. What the Why would you not to see it. What the Why would you not spend a life lifting people up? spend a life lifting people up? spend a life lifting people up? It's such a gift, right? I knew we It's such a gift, right? I knew we It's such a gift, right? I knew we needed to have this conversation. I needed to have this conversation. I needed to have this conversation. I didn't know how badly we needed to have didn't know how badly we needed to have didn't know how badly we needed to have this conversation. This has been this conversation. This has been this conversation. This has been incredible. I'll I'll put us down for incredible. I'll I'll put us down for incredible. I'll I'll put us down for round two if you're open. round two if you're open. round two if you're open. uh because there's so much we didn't uh because there's so much we didn't uh because there's so much we didn't touch on, but um is there anything you touch on, but um is there anything you touch on, but um is there anything you think leaders need to hear right now think leaders need to hear right now think leaders need to hear right now that we didn't touch on in these 90 that we didn't touch on in these 90 that we didn't touch on in these 90 minutes? because I think this has been a minutes? because I think this has been a minutes? because I think this has been a massive dose of wisdom, encouragement, massive dose of wisdom, encouragement, massive dose of wisdom, encouragement, vulnerability, vulnerability, vulnerability, um unlikely surprises along the way that um unlikely surprises along the way that um unlikely surprises along the way that actually move in a positive direction actually move in a positive direction actually move in a positive direction and a good series of clues as to how to and a good series of clues as to how to and a good series of clues as to how to trend toward finishing well in ministry.

trend toward finishing well in ministry. trend toward finishing well in ministry. Yeah. Um you got time for a quick story? Yeah. Um you got time for a quick story? Yeah. Um you got time for a quick story? I got lots of time. I got lots of time. I got lots of time. Yeah. So, um, if I can pastor you all, Yeah. So, um, if I can pastor you all, Yeah. So, um, if I can pastor you all, um, business or whatever, whatever um, business or whatever, whatever um, business or whatever, whatever you're doing, um, my life I I learned you're doing, um, my life I I learned you're doing, um, my life I I learned something that I've been saying all over something that I've been saying all over something that I've been saying all over the country. And what happened is, do the country. And what happened is, do the country. And what happened is, do you all remember the day, Carrie, you all remember the day, Carrie, you all remember the day, Carrie, remember the day where CO shut the world remember the day where CO shut the world remember the day where CO shut the world down? Was this? down? Was this? down? Was this? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Afternoon, we have we have a conference Afternoon, we have we have a conference Afternoon, we have we have a conference called Thrive, and we cut it off at called Thrive, and we cut it off at called Thrive, and we cut it off at about 4,000 people up north. We'd about 4,000 people up north. We'd about 4,000 people up north. We'd started one in Southern California and started one in Southern California and started one in Southern California and we limited that to 2,000 people. It was we limited that to 2,000 people. It was we limited that to 2,000 people. It was in Palm Springs and that had just filled in Palm Springs and that had just filled in Palm Springs and that had just filled that morning. Okay. Come go to a place that morning. Okay. Come go to a place that morning. Okay. Come go to a place in the desert and I'm in I'm in the in the desert and I'm in I'm in the in the desert and I'm in I'm in the backyard and the news flash comes and backyard and the news flash comes and backyard and the news flash comes and the world shuts down and I mean the world shuts down and I mean the world shuts down and I mean professional sports pulls the plug. Kach professional sports pulls the plug. Kach professional sports pulls the plug. Kach pulls the plug. The whole thing crashes pulls the plug. The whole thing crashes pulls the plug. The whole thing crashes and I have to pull the plug on our and I have to pull the plug on our and I have to pull the plug on our conference conference conference both of them. And I call our pastors. We both of them. And I call our pastors. We both of them. And I call our pastors. We get on a we get on a Zoom call.

get on a we get on a Zoom call. get on a we get on a Zoom call. Actually, pre was pre- Zoom. Get on a Actually, pre was pre- Zoom. Get on a Actually, pre was pre- Zoom. Get on a call. And I tell them, we all decide we call. And I tell them, we all decide we call. And I tell them, we all decide we got to pull the plug on it. And got to pull the plug on it. And got to pull the plug on it. And the guy that wrote the book on hope, I'm the guy that wrote the book on hope, I'm the guy that wrote the book on hope, I'm bummed out for days. bummed out for days. bummed out for days. Sure. Who wouldn't be? Sure. Who wouldn't be? Sure. Who wouldn't be? And because I'm going, I know what And because I'm going, I know what And because I'm going, I know what happens to people at this. And it's it's happens to people at this. And it's it's happens to people at this. And it's it's some it's just, you know what it's like some it's just, you know what it's like some it's just, you know what it's like when And when And when And yeah, I lost South by Southwest. a big yeah, I lost South by Southwest. a big yeah, I lost South by Southwest. a big trip to Australia, all that stuff. It trip to Australia, all that stuff. It trip to Australia, all that stuff. It was tough. was tough. was tough. Jeez. And so I'm just bummed out. And Jeez. And so I'm just bummed out. And Jeez. And so I'm just bummed out. And finally, I think about a week later, finally, I think about a week later, finally, I think about a week later, we're in we're still in Palm Springs and we're in we're still in Palm Springs and we're in we're still in Palm Springs and my wife was going, my wife was going, my wife was going, "Well, I'm starting to think Carol's "Well, I'm starting to think Carol's "Well, I'm starting to think Carol's probably think she's married to some probably think she's married to some probably think she's married to some depressed jerk, which is depressed jerk, which is depressed jerk, which is So I finally go, okay, I got to deal So I finally go, okay, I got to deal So I finally go, okay, I got to deal with this." So, I take my Bible and I with this." So, I take my Bible and I with this." So, I take my Bible and I take a notebook and a piece of paper and take a notebook and a piece of paper and take a notebook and a piece of paper and I go sit in the backyard and I go, "God, I go sit in the backyard and I go, "God, I go sit in the backyard and I go, "God, I'm going to read this thing until I'm going to read this thing until I'm going to read this thing until something happens." something happens." something happens." And I I just start reading all these And I I just start reading all these And I I just start reading all these different promises and these different different promises and these different different promises and these different things be and then because I'm pretty things be and then because I'm pretty things be and then because I'm pretty sick and tired of being sick and tired sick and tired of being sick and tired sick and tired of being sick and tired and and then it was like it wasn't an and and then it was like it wasn't an and and then it was like it wasn't an audible voice from God but crystal clear audible voice from God but crystal clear audible voice from God but crystal clear God said to me if you will let if you God said to me if you will let if you God said to me if you will let if you will let go if you will let go of will let go if you will let go of will let go if you will let go of discouragement and replace it with discouragement and replace it with discouragement and replace it with dreaming the world just might be a dreaming the world just might be a dreaming the world just might be a better place.

better place. better place. So I write it. I literally I take this I So I write it. I literally I take this I So I write it. I literally I take this I just if you will let it was like taking just if you will let it was like taking just if you will let it was like taking dictation. It was like if you will let dictation. It was like if you will let dictation. It was like if you will let go of discouragement and replace it with go of discouragement and replace it with go of discouragement and replace it with dreaming the world just might be a dreaming the world just might be a dreaming the world just might be a better place. And so I go all right well better place. And so I go all right well better place. And so I go all right well what am I discouraged about? And I wrote what am I discouraged about? And I wrote what am I discouraged about? And I wrote down cancelling the Thrive Conference. down cancelling the Thrive Conference. down cancelling the Thrive Conference. And then I felt like God said well And then I felt like God said well And then I felt like God said well dream. dream. dream. And so I lit I literally wrote down what And so I lit I literally wrote down what And so I lit I literally wrote down what if we launch God's a big God. Go for it. if we launch God's a big God. Go for it. if we launch God's a big God. Go for it. What if we launched the largest ever What if we launched the largest ever What if we launched the largest ever completely online totally free completely online totally free completely online totally free leadership conference in history? What leadership conference in history? What leadership conference in history? What if we asked every major great if we asked every major great if we asked every major great communicator Maxwell carrying off to communicator Maxwell carrying off to communicator Maxwell carrying off to speak for free? What if we raised a speak for free? What if we raised a speak for free? What if we raised a million dollars at that um to help kids million dollars at that um to help kids million dollars at that um to help kids that are going to be negative negatively that are going to be negative negatively that are going to be negative negatively affected by co and what if we did it all affected by co and what if we did it all affected by co and what if we did it all six weeks from now on the day of our six weeks from now on the day of our six weeks from now on the day of our original conference? Well, one step original conference? Well, one step original conference? Well, one step ahead, you're the leader, 10 steps ahead, you're the leader, 10 steps ahead, you're the leader, 10 steps ahead, you're the target. So, I call our ahead, you're the target. So, I call our ahead, you're the target. So, I call our team and I tell, by the way, that all team and I tell, by the way, that all team and I tell, by the way, that all took like by the time I pulled that took like by the time I pulled that took like by the time I pulled that paper out after I read a bunch of stuff, paper out after I read a bunch of stuff, paper out after I read a bunch of stuff, that took like three minutes. It was that took like three minutes. It was that took like three minutes. It was like taking God, it was like if you will like taking God, it was like if you will like taking God, it was like if you will let go of discouragement and replace let go of discouragement and replace let go of discouragement and replace dreaming. So, I call our team together.

dreaming. So, I call our team together. dreaming. So, I call our team together. I tell them this whole thing. I said, "I I tell them this whole thing. I said, "I I tell them this whole thing. I said, "I know this is insane. Um, I know it's six know this is insane. Um, I know it's six know this is insane. Um, I know it's six weeks. I but look, we're not doing weeks. I but look, we're not doing weeks. I but look, we're not doing anything else anyway. So, what do you anything else anyway. So, what do you anything else anyway. So, what do you think?" They green lit it. Okay. I mean, think?" They green lit it. Okay. I mean, think?" They green lit it. Okay. I mean, it was like and went, it took off. Build it was like and went, it took off. Build it was like and went, it took off. Build a whole studio up here and all this a whole studio up here and all this a whole studio up here and all this stuff. Every single person we asked to stuff. Every single person we asked to stuff. Every single person we asked to speak for free said yes. Every single. speak for free said yes. Every single. speak for free said yes. Every single. Okay. And we added a day. We added we Okay. And we added a day. We added we Okay. And we added a day. We added we actually two weeks before added a full actually two weeks before added a full actually two weeks before added a full day before on race and justice in day before on race and justice in day before on race and justice in America. Okay. And I mean, you know, we America. Okay. And I mean, you know, we America. Okay. And I mean, you know, we asked all these great communicators to asked all these great communicators to asked all these great communicators to speak. Um, it was pretty incredible. And speak. Um, it was pretty incredible. And speak. Um, it was pretty incredible. And and so the first day I'm we I'm at this and so the first day I'm we I'm at this and so the first day I'm we I'm at this main desk. It was like ESPN sets all main desk. It was like ESPN sets all main desk. It was like ESPN sets all over the room. I'm at this main desk and over the room. I'm at this main desk and over the room. I'm at this main desk and and we start this thing. It's about a and we start this thing. It's about a and we start this thing. It's about a 15-minute intro and we cut I think to 15-minute intro and we cut I think to 15-minute intro and we cut I think to John Maxwell for the first session. So I John Maxwell for the first session. So I John Maxwell for the first session. So I So I say in the headset to the producer, So I say in the headset to the producer, So I say in the headset to the producer, "Is anybody watching this?" I mean, you "Is anybody watching this?" I mean, you "Is anybody watching this?" I mean, you know, they're like I was our conference know, they're like I was our conference know, they're like I was our conference combined had 6,000 people. I was hoping combined had 6,000 people. I was hoping combined had 6,000 people. I was hoping there were at least there were at least there were at least I hope my mom's watching maybe. You I hope my mom's watching maybe. You I hope my mom's watching maybe. You know, it was to that point I'm know, it was to that point I'm know, it was to that point I'm convinced. I don't know if anybody's convinced. I don't know if anybody's convinced. I don't know if anybody's watching this. Was this a gigantic waste watching this. Was this a gigantic waste watching this. Was this a gigantic waste of effort? And she says, "I'll slide a of effort? And she says, "I'll slide a of effort? And she says, "I'll slide a paper down the desk." So, this paper paper down the desk." So, this paper paper down the desk." So, this paper slides down and I look at it and it says slides down and I look at it and it says slides down and I look at it and it says there are currently 242,000 there are currently 242,000 there are currently 242,000 individual distinct devices tuned in individual distinct devices tuned in individual distinct devices tuned in right now. Most of these are in settings right now. Most of these are in settings right now. Most of these are in settings where more than one person is watching.

where more than one person is watching. where more than one person is watching. So, our lowest estimate, and this is So, our lowest estimate, and this is So, our lowest estimate, and this is accurate stuff, our lowest estimate is accurate stuff, our lowest estimate is accurate stuff, our lowest estimate is there are at least 500,000 people tuned there are at least 500,000 people tuned there are at least 500,000 people tuned in right now. This should go up next in right now. This should go up next in right now. This should go up next week or next tomorrow. What d? And then week or next tomorrow. What d? And then week or next tomorrow. What d? And then it said, and here's a list of countries. it said, and here's a list of countries. it said, and here's a list of countries. There were 42 countries. Okay, it was in There were 42 countries. Okay, it was in There were 42 countries. Okay, it was in Afghanistan, Afghanistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, places that we can't get Saudi Arabia, places that we can't get Saudi Arabia, places that we can't get into. into. into. And I tears start streaming down my face And I tears start streaming down my face And I tears start streaming down my face at this desk. And what I want to say to at this desk. And what I want to say to at this desk. And what I want to say to those of you that are listening, no those of you that are listening, no those of you that are listening, no matter what you do, business, ministry, matter what you do, business, ministry, matter what you do, business, ministry, raising a family, whatever is, um, raising a family, whatever is, um, raising a family, whatever is, um, something very powerful happens when you something very powerful happens when you something very powerful happens when you let go of discouragement and replace it let go of discouragement and replace it let go of discouragement and replace it with dreaming. You and your world become with dreaming. You and your world become with dreaming. You and your world become a much better place. I had to learn the a much better place. I had to learn the a much better place. I had to learn the hard way, but there are, man, hard way, but there are, man, hard way, but there are, man, discouragement will take you down every discouragement will take you down every discouragement will take you down every time you replace that with dreaming. All time you replace that with dreaming. All time you replace that with dreaming. All of a sudden, you just might have a of a sudden, you just might have a of a sudden, you just might have a future. future. future. Ray, wow. Thank you. Um, the book we Ray, wow. Thank you. Um, the book we Ray, wow. Thank you. Um, the book we were referencing, what's it called?

were referencing, what's it called? were referencing, what's it called? It's called Hope Quotient. Matter of It's called Hope Quotient. Matter of It's called Hope Quotient. Matter of fact, I just did fact, I just did fact, I just did HQ. HQ. HQ. Yeah. Yeah. It's HQ. Yeah. Yeah. It's HQ. Yeah. Yeah. It's HQ. It's called Hope Quotient. We actually It's called Hope Quotient. We actually It's called Hope Quotient. We actually think your HQ is more important than think your HQ is more important than think your HQ is more important than your IQ, which is good news for me. Um, your IQ, which is good news for me. Um, your IQ, which is good news for me. Um, so let's put it back on the Wall Street so let's put it back on the Wall Street so let's put it back on the Wall Street Journal, New York Times bestseller list. Journal, New York Times bestseller list. Journal, New York Times bestseller list. Audience, go out and get yourself a Audience, go out and get yourself a Audience, go out and get yourself a copy. I uh I will give five copies away copy. I uh I will give five copies away copy. I uh I will give five copies away to people watching on YouTube. So just to people watching on YouTube. So just to people watching on YouTube. So just type uh I want to stay encouraged in the type uh I want to stay encouraged in the type uh I want to stay encouraged in the comments and we'll give away five comments and we'll give away five comments and we'll give away five copies, but go buy some for your team. copies, but go buy some for your team. copies, but go buy some for your team. This is worth the price of admission. Uh This is worth the price of admission. Uh This is worth the price of admission. Uh I have never thought about encouragement I have never thought about encouragement I have never thought about encouragement that way and that's a really important that way and that's a really important that way and that's a really important value for me and you just shared so value for me and you just shared so value for me and you just shared so much. But go buy a copy. It's called much. But go buy a copy. It's called much. But go buy a copy. It's called Hope Quotient. Maybe we'll give give you Hope Quotient. Maybe we'll give give you Hope Quotient. Maybe we'll give give you one too over on YouTube. Carrie, we if one too over on YouTube. Carrie, we if one too over on YouTube. Carrie, we if um if you I don't know what it is in um if you I don't know what it is in um if you I don't know what it is in Canada. If you you text the word hope to Canada. If you you text the word hope to Canada. If you you text the word hope to 56316. 56316. 56316. Okay. So, hope to 56316. Okay. So, hope to 56316. Okay. So, hope to 56316. I took I've taken the book. I've shot it I took I've taken the book. I've shot it I took I've taken the book. I've shot it in an eight-part course.

in an eight-part course. in an eight-part course. Oh, cool. Oh, cool. Oh, cool. And you can get that for free. And then And you can get that for free. And then And you can get that for free. And then years ago, we did this book, we all years ago, we did this book, we all years ago, we did this book, we all wrote the f country's first ever online wrote the f country's first ever online wrote the f country's first ever online hope test. Okay. So, if you text that, hope test. Okay. So, if you text that, hope test. Okay. So, if you text that, we will send you a code and you can take we will send you a code and you can take we will send you a code and you can take a te you can actually take an online a te you can actually take an online a te you can actually take an online test uh put together by the three of us test uh put together by the three of us test uh put together by the three of us that will test you in every one of these that will test you in every one of these that will test you in every one of these seven areas. seven areas. seven areas. So, it's hope to So, it's hope to So, it's hope to hope to 56316. hope to 56316. hope to 56316. 56316. You can do that, too. All right. 56316. You can do that, too. All right. 56316. You can do that, too. All right. We'll get a lot of call to actions. Ray, We'll get a lot of call to actions. Ray, We'll get a lot of call to actions. Ray, you're a great follow on Instagram. you're a great follow on Instagram. you're a great follow on Instagram. We'll link to everything in the show We'll link to everything in the show We'll link to everything in the show notes. I am excited about being at notes. I am excited about being at notes. I am excited about being at Thrive 2026, God willing. It's going to Thrive 2026, God willing. It's going to Thrive 2026, God willing. It's going to be great. And um I want to thank you so be great. And um I want to thank you so be great. And um I want to thank you so much. Thanks your friendship. Thanks for much. Thanks your friendship. Thanks for much. Thanks your friendship. Thanks for coming on the show. Uh thank you for coming on the show. Uh thank you for coming on the show. Uh thank you for encouraging just so many leaders today. encouraging just so many leaders today. encouraging just so many leaders today. I think you know sometimes we ask what's I think you know sometimes we ask what's I think you know sometimes we ask what's your all-time favorite episode? I think your all-time favorite episode? I think your all-time favorite episode? I think this is a candidate 750 episodes in to this is a candidate 750 episodes in to this is a candidate 750 episodes in to become some leaders all-time favorite become some leaders all-time favorite become some leaders all-time favorite episode. And by the way, here's what episode. And by the way, here's what episode. And by the way, here's what I'll say to you. You are the best I'll say to you. You are the best I'll say to you. You are the best friends leaders currently have. You're friends leaders currently have. You're friends leaders currently have. You're the best friend. And uh I I don't know the best friend. And uh I I don't know the best friend. And uh I I don't know anybody that doesn't listen to you and I anybody that doesn't listen to you and I anybody that doesn't listen to you and I know a lot of people. So uh so and I know a lot of people. So uh so and I know a lot of people. So uh so and I know it's a lot of work behind the know it's a lot of work behind the know it's a lot of work behind the scenes and so thanks for giving up what scenes and so thanks for giving up what scenes and so thanks for giving up what you were doing. But you are the person you were doing. But you are the person you were doing. But you are the person we listen to but everybody else I know we listen to but everybody else I know we listen to but everybody else I know listens to. So listens to. So listens to. So well it is one of the great joys and well it is one of the great joys and well it is one of the great joys and strange mysteries of my life that you strange mysteries of my life that you strange mysteries of my life that you end up in the places that you do. But it end up in the places that you do. But it end up in the places that you do. But it was funny. I was thinking about it on

was funny. I was thinking about it on was funny. I was thinking about it on the weekend. you know, lots of time to the weekend. you know, lots of time to the weekend. you know, lots of time to reflect and, you know, recovering from reflect and, you know, recovering from reflect and, you know, recovering from this anemia thing I got and I'm like, this anemia thing I got and I'm like, this anemia thing I got and I'm like, yeah, I don't know what the shelf life yeah, I don't know what the shelf life yeah, I don't know what the shelf life on the podcast is, but as long as we on the podcast is, but as long as we on the podcast is, but as long as we continue to have very fascinating human continue to have very fascinating human continue to have very fascinating human beings and really interesting topics to beings and really interesting topics to beings and really interesting topics to talk about, I think it's indefinite. And talk about, I think it's indefinite. And talk about, I think it's indefinite. And today's uh case in point, like what a today's uh case in point, like what a today's uh case in point, like what a what a great conversation, Ray. And just what a great conversation, Ray. And just what a great conversation, Ray. And just thanks for showing up. Thanks for going thanks for showing up. Thanks for going thanks for showing up. Thanks for going beyond scripted questions, which I beyond scripted questions, which I beyond scripted questions, which I didn't even touch today. and uh and didn't even touch today. and uh and didn't even touch today. and uh and honest answers and being vulnerable honest answers and being vulnerable honest answers and being vulnerable because I think that particularly in an because I think that particularly in an because I think that particularly in an age of AI and fake news and everything. age of AI and fake news and everything. age of AI and fake news and everything. It's the heartto-heart. It's the oh It's the heartto-heart. It's the oh It's the heartto-heart. It's the oh that's what it's really like being Ray that's what it's really like being Ray that's what it's really like being Ray Johnson. That's what it's really like Johnson. That's what it's really like Johnson. That's what it's really like leading a church for decades and trying leading a church for decades and trying leading a church for decades and trying to forge that long obedience in the same to forge that long obedience in the same to forge that long obedience in the same direction. That's the stuff that we need direction. That's the stuff that we need direction. That's the stuff that we need and it's too rare. And for you to bring and it's too rare. And for you to bring and it's too rare. And for you to bring that today has been a huge gift to me that today has been a huge gift to me that today has been a huge gift to me and to the audience. So thank you. and to the audience. So thank you. and to the audience. So thank you. Well, thank you. My only I have one Well, thank you. My only I have one Well, thank you. My only I have one request. request. request. Yeah. What Yeah. What Yeah. What said about you being the best friend said about you being the best friend said about you being the best friend leaders have? Leave it in. Don't cut leaders have? Leave it in. Don't cut leaders have? Leave it in. Don't cut that part out.

that part out. that part out. Okay.