The Fight to Ban Superintelligent AI: The Race To Replace Humans Is Already On

AI systems seem like they are neutral. AI systems seem like they are neutral. It's not. The Southern Baptist It's not. The Southern Baptist It's not. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Pope have both been Convention and the Pope have both been Convention and the Pope have both been saying recently, you know, we should no saying recently, you know, we should no saying recently, you know, we should no longer regard technology as neutral. longer regard technology as neutral. longer regard technology as neutral. LLMs give you a neutral seeming facade, LLMs give you a neutral seeming facade, LLMs give you a neutral seeming facade, but it's very much uh woven through with but it's very much uh woven through with but it's very much uh woven through with the worldview that it has consumed from the worldview that it has consumed from the worldview that it has consumed from the internet that it has been trained by the internet that it has been trained by the internet that it has been trained by its by its open AI anthropic handlers its by its open AI anthropic handlers its by its open AI anthropic handlers who are not Christian. I would be very who are not Christian. I would be very who are not Christian. I would be very nervous about, you know, how how sermons nervous about, you know, how how sermons nervous about, you know, how how sermons could be gradually leading a could be gradually leading a could be gradually leading a congregation astray over multiple years congregation astray over multiple years congregation astray over multiple years if they are relying on AI because they if they are relying on AI because they if they are relying on AI because they are not informed by the spirit in the are not informed by the spirit in the are not informed by the spirit in the way that you are. way that you are. way that you are. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Man, I'm so glad you leadership podcast. Man, I'm so glad you leadership podcast. Man, I'm so glad you joined [music] us. Today I am talking to joined [music] us. Today I am talking to joined [music] us. Today I am talking to Will Jones about the race to replace Will Jones about the race to replace Will Jones about the race to replace human beings. It's already on the human beings. It's already on the human beings. It's already on the frontier. AI labs are gunning for your frontier. AI labs are gunning for your frontier. AI labs are gunning for your job and they'd like to wipe out most job and they'd like to wipe out most job and they'd like to wipe out most human jobs. That's their stated goal. human jobs. That's their stated goal. human jobs. That's their stated goal. What does that actually mean for you and What does that actually mean for you and What does that actually mean for you and me? Is it going to happen? Will Jones me? Is it going to happen? Will Jones me? Is it going to happen? Will Jones thinks most leaders have no idea what's thinks most leaders have no idea what's thinks most leaders have no idea what's coming? And he's actually fighting to coming? And he's actually fighting to coming? And he's actually fighting to ban super [music] intelligent artificial ban super [music] intelligent artificial ban super [music] intelligent artificial intelligence. So, this is all new to intelligence. So, this is all new to intelligence. So, this is all new to you. Well, you've tuned into the right you. Well, you've tuned into the right you. Well, you've tuned into the right place. Uh we're going to talk about the place. Uh we're going to talk about the place. Uh we're going to talk about the difference between AI, [music] the phase difference between AI, [music] the phase difference between AI, [music] the phase we're in now, AGI, artificial general we're in now, AGI, artificial general we're in now, AGI, artificial general intelligence, and then the biggest intelligence, and then the biggest intelligence, and then the biggest threat to humanity, super intelligent threat to humanity, super intelligent threat to humanity, super intelligent artificial [music] artificial [music] artificial [music] intelligence. So, we're going to look at intelligence. So, we're going to look at intelligence. So, we're going to look at that. Will leads global religious that. Will leads global religious that. Will leads global religious community engagement at the future of community engagement at the future of community engagement at the future of life institute, the organization behind life institute, the organization behind life institute, the organization behind last year's viral open letter that last year's viral open letter that last year's viral open letter that brought together everyone from Megan brought together everyone from Megan brought together everyone from Megan Markle to Steve Bannon calling for a

Markle to Steve Bannon calling for a Markle to Steve Bannon calling for a global ban on super intelligent AI global ban on super intelligent AI global ban on super intelligent AI development. Will works with Christian, development. Will works with Christian, development. Will works with Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist leaders on AI governance and ethics. He leaders on AI governance and ethics. He leaders on AI governance and ethics. He co-organized faith and AI workshops at co-organized faith and AI workshops at co-organized faith and AI workshops at Cambridge. He briefs policymakers on how Cambridge. He briefs policymakers on how Cambridge. He briefs policymakers on how AI is already reshaping belief in AI is already reshaping belief in AI is already reshaping belief in identity. He participated in a Vatican identity. He participated in a Vatican identity. He participated in a Vatican summit on AI ethics and well is one of summit on AI ethics and well is one of summit on AI ethics and well is one of the leading voices and how to shape AI. the leading voices and how to shape AI. the leading voices and how to shape AI. He also talks about we talk about He also talks about we talk about He also talks about we talk about whether you should use AI to write your whether you should use AI to write your whether you should use AI to write your sermon. What's at stake when you sermon. What's at stake when you sermon. What's at stake when you delegate too much to AI and how delegate too much to AI and how delegate too much to AI and how overusing AI actually might make you overusing AI actually might make you overusing AI actually might make you more replaceable than developing your more replaceable than developing your more replaceable than developing your cognitive skills. It's a fascinating cognitive skills. It's a fascinating cognitive skills. It's a fascinating conversation. So whether you're watching conversation. So whether you're watching conversation. So whether you're watching or listening, just hit follow. you won't or listening, just hit follow. you won't or listening, just hit follow. you won't miss any in this AI series. That way we miss any in this AI series. That way we miss any in this AI series. That way we got I don't know six, seven episodes. got I don't know six, seven episodes. got I don't know six, seven episodes. Really excited for it. So now my Really excited for it. So now my Really excited for it. So now my conversation with Will Jones. Will conversation with Will Jones. Will conversation with Will Jones. Will really glad uh to have you on the really glad uh to have you on the really glad uh to have you on the podcast. Welcome. podcast. Welcome. podcast. Welcome. >> Thanks so much Carrie. Good to be here. >> Thanks so much Carrie. Good to be here. >> Thanks so much Carrie. Good to be here. >> Yeah. So there's kind of two >> Yeah. So there's kind of two >> Yeah. So there's kind of two conversations happening with artificial conversations happening with artificial conversations happening with artificial intelligence right now. One is on this intelligence right now. One is on this intelligence right now. One is on this is the one that's most common by far the is the one that's most common by far the is the one that's most common by far the prompt level like are you using cloud prompt level like are you using cloud prompt level like are you using cloud versus you know open AAI chat GPT? What versus you know open AAI chat GPT? What versus you know open AAI chat GPT? What about Gemini?

about Gemini? about Gemini? all about prompting, co-work vibe all about prompting, co-work vibe all about prompting, co-work vibe coding, that kind of stuff. And then coding, that kind of stuff. And then coding, that kind of stuff. And then there's another conversation about the there's another conversation about the there's another conversation about the impact of AI. What in your view is the impact of AI. What in your view is the impact of AI. What in your view is the conversation about AI that people are conversation about AI that people are conversation about AI that people are not having that they really ought to be not having that they really ought to be not having that they really ought to be having? having? having? >> Yeah, thanks. Um, I I mean I I do think >> Yeah, thanks. Um, I I mean I I do think >> Yeah, thanks. Um, I I mean I I do think it's it's it's strange in a way because it's it's it's strange in a way because it's it's it's strange in a way because the the conversation that's not quite the the conversation that's not quite the the conversation that's not quite happening seems like it it it seems like happening seems like it it it seems like happening seems like it it it seems like it should be happening by now because it should be happening by now because it should be happening by now because just, you know, looking at what the just, you know, looking at what the just, you know, looking at what the things that the CEOs are saying and and things that the CEOs are saying and and things that the CEOs are saying and and the sort of adverts we're seeing, you the sort of adverts we're seeing, you the sort of adverts we're seeing, you know, I'm living in London. I see on the know, I'm living in London. I see on the know, I'm living in London. I see on the tube adverts for, you know, AI can do tube adverts for, you know, AI can do tube adverts for, you know, AI can do this task for you. AI can replace this, this task for you. AI can replace this, this task for you. AI can replace this, you know. Um, it seems like it's staring you know. Um, it seems like it's staring you know. Um, it seems like it's staring us in the face. Um, but I think a lot a us in the face. Um, but I think a lot a us in the face. Um, but I think a lot a lot of us are falling for the kind of um lot of us are falling for the kind of um lot of us are falling for the kind of um I don't know the trap of just assuming I don't know the trap of just assuming I don't know the trap of just assuming that things are going to keep going as that things are going to keep going as that things are going to keep going as as they've been. And so, oh, this is as they've been. And so, oh, this is as they've been. And so, oh, this is just going to be another thing that I just going to be another thing that I just going to be another thing that I can use to help me with my work. Um, and can use to help me with my work. Um, and can use to help me with my work. Um, and and for pastors and and priests, you and for pastors and and priests, you and for pastors and and priests, you know, um, oh, may maybe I should use know, um, oh, may maybe I should use know, um, oh, may maybe I should use this to write a sermon. Maybe there's an this to write a sermon. Maybe there's an this to write a sermon. Maybe there's an issue there, maybe there's not. And we issue there, maybe there's not. And we issue there, maybe there's not. And we can obviously that's an important issue.

can obviously that's an important issue. can obviously that's an important issue. We can talk about that. But I think like We can talk about that. But I think like We can talk about that. But I think like you say there's this bigger conversation you say there's this bigger conversation you say there's this bigger conversation around you know what are the around you know what are the around you know what are the transformative changes that are actually transformative changes that are actually transformative changes that are actually happening in in society and where do we happening in in society and where do we happening in in society and where do we think these these systems are going to think these these systems are going to think these these systems are going to be going. I mean um if you just look at be going. I mean um if you just look at be going. I mean um if you just look at the last 3 years of progress in AI um the last 3 years of progress in AI um the last 3 years of progress in AI um you know we've gone from from no chat you know we've gone from from no chat you know we've gone from from no chat GBT to start with you know to the GBT to start with you know to the GBT to start with you know to the introduction of that system to the you introduction of that system to the you introduction of that system to the you know huge bulking out of uh data centers know huge bulking out of uh data centers know huge bulking out of uh data centers and and compute and and and these sort and and compute and and and these sort and and compute and and and these sort of capabilities you know exponential of capabilities you know exponential of capabilities you know exponential improvements in in the things that AI improvements in in the things that AI improvements in in the things that AI systems can do. Um but if you look at systems can do. Um but if you look at systems can do. Um but if you look at what the companies are actually aiming what the companies are actually aiming what the companies are actually aiming to do and and they're quite open about to do and and they're quite open about to do and and they're quite open about this um and by companies I mean the sort this um and by companies I mean the sort this um and by companies I mean the sort of three or four you know handful of the of three or four you know handful of the of three or four you know handful of the frontier labs frontier labs frontier labs >> the frontier labs exactly the >> the frontier labs exactly the >> the frontier labs exactly the corporations that are aiming explicitly corporations that are aiming explicitly corporations that are aiming explicitly for AGI or super intelligence for AGI or super intelligence for AGI or super intelligence >> and these are systems that are not just >> and these are systems that are not just >> and these are systems that are not just able to do one or two tasks really well able to do one or two tasks really well able to do one or two tasks really well which AI can already do um but actually which AI can already do um but actually which AI can already do um but actually do the full range of tasks so that would do the full range of tasks so that would do the full range of tasks so that would be the sort of general component and do be the sort of general component and do be the sort of general component and do them agentically or autonomously.

them agentically or autonomously. them agentically or autonomously. And I think it's that last aspect that And I think it's that last aspect that And I think it's that last aspect that people are not quite yet um sort of people are not quite yet um sort of people are not quite yet um sort of appreciating and and they're starting to appreciating and and they're starting to appreciating and and they're starting to you know we we're hearing talk about AI you know we we're hearing talk about AI you know we we're hearing talk about AI agents. Last year was sort of called the agents. Last year was sort of called the agents. Last year was sort of called the year of the agent and like you say year of the agent and like you say year of the agent and like you say people have started using co-work people have started using co-work people have started using co-work uh getting an AI to do some tasks for uh getting an AI to do some tasks for uh getting an AI to do some tasks for them. But when you scale that up and you them. But when you scale that up and you them. But when you scale that up and you just sort of move that graph a little just sort of move that graph a little just sort of move that graph a little bit further forward, what you're looking bit further forward, what you're looking bit further forward, what you're looking at is is companies that are aiming to at is is companies that are aiming to at is is companies that are aiming to create systems that, you know, will create systems that, you know, will create systems that, you know, will actually replace you in your job. Not actually replace you in your job. Not actually replace you in your job. Not [clears throat] not not give you some [clears throat] not not give you some [clears throat] not not give you some extra, you know, tools to to help you do extra, you know, tools to to help you do extra, you know, tools to to help you do your job better. Um, you know, the old your job better. Um, you know, the old your job better. Um, you know, the old line was, oh, you're not going to be line was, oh, you're not going to be line was, oh, you're not going to be replaced by AI, you're going to be replaced by AI, you're going to be replaced by AI, you're going to be replaced by someone else using AI. Um replaced by someone else using AI. Um replaced by someone else using AI. Um and that you know even if that is true and that you know even if that is true and that you know even if that is true uh that would be one person replacing a uh that would be one person replacing a uh that would be one person replacing a hundred people you know and and so but hundred people you know and and so but hundred people you know and and so but actually in terms of the investments and actually in terms of the investments and actually in terms of the investments and you know there's a lot of talk about AI you know there's a lot of talk about AI you know there's a lot of talk about AI bubbles and the the sheer amount of bubbles and the the sheer amount of bubbles and the the sheer amount of money going into this money going into this money going into this >> um arguably the only thing that could >> um arguably the only thing that could >> um arguably the only thing that could that could justify the scale of that that could justify the scale of that that could justify the scale of that investment based on the amount of profit investment based on the amount of profit investment based on the amount of profit that they're getting um is is is full that they're getting um is is is full that they're getting um is is is full layoffs of you know large industries.

layoffs of you know large industries. layoffs of you know large industries. Um, in other [clears throat] words, it Um, in other [clears throat] words, it Um, in other [clears throat] words, it doesn't really make sense to say that doesn't really make sense to say that doesn't really make sense to say that these companies are betting everything these companies are betting everything these companies are betting everything on a bunch of us ordinary people play on a bunch of us ordinary people play on a bunch of us ordinary people play paying subscription fees, you know, paying subscription fees, you know, paying subscription fees, you know, small subscription fees to use their small subscription fees to use their small subscription fees to use their their latest system. uh the amount of their latest system. uh the amount of their latest system. uh the amount of money is is justified um only really money is is justified um only really money is is justified um only really when you start talking about the the when you start talking about the the when you start talking about the the bigger picture which is um you know bigger picture which is um you know bigger picture which is um you know capturing the the sort of range of capturing the the sort of range of capturing the the sort of range of industries because you can actually industries because you can actually industries because you can actually replace everything that a human worker replace everything that a human worker replace everything that a human worker would be able to do in in in a would be able to do in in in a would be able to do in in in a day-to-day task. Um but I'm I also day-to-day task. Um but I'm I also day-to-day task. Um but I'm I also that's you know even that is to limit it that's you know even that is to limit it that's you know even that is to limit it to the question of of work and jobs. um to the question of of work and jobs. um to the question of of work and jobs. um you know and even if if jobs are you know and even if if jobs are you know and even if if jobs are something which which have various something which which have various something which which have various implementation gaps you know we can sort implementation gaps you know we can sort implementation gaps you know we can sort of um unions can step in and keep people of um unions can step in and keep people of um unions can step in and keep people in their in their work even though AI in their in their work even though AI in their in their work even though AI systems can replace you maybe you don't systems can replace you maybe you don't systems can replace you maybe you don't want you know all of your workers to be want you know all of your workers to be want you know all of your workers to be replaced we're already seeing a lot of replaced we're already seeing a lot of replaced we're already seeing a lot of impacts in other areas of our lives um impacts in other areas of our lives um impacts in other areas of our lives um you know in terms of the relationships you know in terms of the relationships you know in terms of the relationships uh that are being manipulated by AI the uh that are being manipulated by AI the uh that are being manipulated by AI the kind of chatbot uh craze that I think kind of chatbot uh craze that I think kind of chatbot uh craze that I think was really brought to people's attention was really brought to people's attention was really brought to people's attention last year um you know in in these last year um you know in in these last year um you know in in these high-profile suicide cases, teenagers in high-profile suicide cases, teenagers in high-profile suicide cases, teenagers in the US committing suicide because of you the US committing suicide because of you the US committing suicide because of you know months of sort of getting to feel know months of sort of getting to feel know months of sort of getting to feel as though they were in love with a comp as though they were in love with a comp as though they were in love with a comp AI companion chatbot. Um, and I think AI companion chatbot. Um, and I think AI companion chatbot. Um, and I think that for me brought home a lot of these that for me brought home a lot of these that for me brought home a lot of these questions of, you know, if you actually

questions of, you know, if you actually questions of, you know, if you actually create AI systems, create AI systems, create AI systems, aiming them to be as agentic and aiming them to be as agentic and aiming them to be as agentic and manipulative as a human person can be, manipulative as a human person can be, manipulative as a human person can be, um, but but that knows you better than um, but but that knows you better than um, but but that knows you better than any human person because it can it's any human person because it can it's any human person because it can it's it's feeding on all of your data. Um, it's feeding on all of your data. Um, it's feeding on all of your data. Um, we're in for a really wild time um where we're in for a really wild time um where we're in for a really wild time um where people don't really know what's going people don't really know what's going people don't really know what's going on, but they know that it's hitting them on, but they know that it's hitting them on, but they know that it's hitting them in the face and um, and that, you know, in the face and um, and that, you know, in the face and um, and that, you know, shaping their views and beliefs. And I shaping their views and beliefs. And I shaping their views and beliefs. And I think that's something that that I've think that's something that that I've think that's something that that I've been encouraging church leaders to be been encouraging church leaders to be been encouraging church leaders to be thinking about for for a long time. Um thinking about for for a long time. Um thinking about for for a long time. Um that's not to mention the the the fact that's not to mention the the the fact that's not to mention the the the fact that this is just a handful of that this is just a handful of that this is just a handful of companies. And so the power companies. And so the power companies. And so the power concentration there, you know, even if concentration there, you know, even if concentration there, you know, even if it's the case that those companies it's the case that those companies it's the case that those companies remained in control of their AI systems, remained in control of their AI systems, remained in control of their AI systems, which they're starting to say is a risk which they're starting to say is a risk which they're starting to say is a risk that they they won't um it would just be that they they won't um it would just be that they they won't um it would just be a handful of men in control of, you a handful of men in control of, you a handful of men in control of, you know, systems that are affecting know, systems that are affecting know, systems that are affecting everyone's lives. um which is sort of everyone's lives. um which is sort of everyone's lives. um which is sort of unprecedented even in you know even in unprecedented even in you know even in unprecedented even in you know even in the history of sort of the industrial the history of sort of the industrial the history of sort of the industrial revolution and so on normally you had a revolution and so on normally you had a revolution and so on normally you had a wider range of companies uh interacting wider range of companies uh interacting wider range of companies uh interacting and competing with each other uh nothing and competing with each other uh nothing and competing with each other uh nothing on the sort of concentration of power on the sort of concentration of power on the sort of concentration of power that we're seeing we're seeing today that we're seeing we're seeing today that we're seeing we're seeing today >> I mean there's enough there right in >> I mean there's enough there right in >> I mean there's enough there right in that opening to talk for an hour so I that opening to talk for an hour so I that opening to talk for an hour so I want to get to most of what you just want to get to most of what you just want to get to most of what you just covered but let's because that's the covered but let's because that's the covered but let's because that's the conversation I want to have too like conversation I want to have too like conversation I want to have too like that's that's what the book is about that's that's what the book is about that's that's what the book is about That's what [snorts] the conversation I That's what [snorts] the conversation I That's what [snorts] the conversation I want to be committed to for the next few want to be committed to for the next few want to be committed to for the next few years is all about. People are not years is all about. People are not years is all about. People are not talking about what you were just talking talking about what you were just talking talking about what you were just talking about. And [laughter] about. And [laughter] about. And [laughter] the the the further I dove into AI, the

the the the further I dove into AI, the the the the further I dove into AI, the more I'm like, why is nobody talking more I'm like, why is nobody talking more I'm like, why is nobody talking about this? Why why is why is this not a about this? Why why is why is this not a about this? Why why is why is this not a national conversation? So, let's start national conversation? So, let's start national conversation? So, let's start with jobs. One of the phrases you've with jobs. One of the phrases you've with jobs. One of the phrases you've used is the race to replace. used is the race to replace. used is the race to replace. So I think the US you can get different So I think the US you can get different So I think the US you can get different stats on this but what I came up with is stats on this but what I came up with is stats on this but what I came up with is the US alone forget the rest of the the US alone forget the rest of the the US alone forget the rest of the world job market people who are world job market people who are world job market people who are gainfully employed from clerks at a gainfully employed from clerks at a gainfully employed from clerks at a store to CEO level about $16 trillion store to CEO level about $16 trillion store to CEO level about $16 trillion this year according to the government. this year according to the government. this year according to the government. Are they gunning for that market? Like Are they gunning for that market? Like Are they gunning for that market? Like what what do you mean by the race to what what do you mean by the race to what what do you mean by the race to replace? replace? replace? >> Yeah, I think it's fair to fair fair to >> Yeah, I think it's fair to fair fair to >> Yeah, I think it's fair to fair fair to ask what they're gunning for. um if you ask what they're gunning for. um if you ask what they're gunning for. um if you know like I say it doesn't really make know like I say it doesn't really make know like I say it doesn't really make sense for them to be providing just some sense for them to be providing just some sense for them to be providing just some subscriptions for you know individual subscriptions for you know individual subscriptions for you know individual users um and and they and a lot of the users um and and they and a lot of the users um and and they and a lot of the company heads are quite quite clear company heads are quite quite clear company heads are quite quite clear about this you Dary Ammeday has talked about this you Dary Ammeday has talked about this you Dary Ammeday has talked for for a number of years now about um a for for a number of years now about um a for for a number of years now about um a sort of bloodbath of of entry- level sort of bloodbath of of entry- level sort of bloodbath of of entry- level jobs um graduate level jobs um and you jobs um graduate level jobs um and you jobs um graduate level jobs um and you know I think at each stage of of this know I think at each stage of of this know I think at each stage of of this kind of AI story people have said oh it kind of AI story people have said oh it kind of AI story people have said oh it won't take this thing you know it won't won't take this thing you know it won't won't take this thing you know it won't take writing and then it took writing.

take writing and then it took writing. take writing and then it took writing. Um, you know, oh, it can't actually do Um, you know, oh, it can't actually do Um, you know, oh, it can't actually do tasks for itself and then you have the tasks for itself and then you have the tasks for itself and then you have the companies racing to create agents as I companies racing to create agents as I companies racing to create agents as I say. Um, coding is already something say. Um, coding is already something say. Um, coding is already something where, you know, it's it's it's quite where, you know, it's it's it's quite where, you know, it's it's it's quite clear that there have been some layoffs clear that there have been some layoffs clear that there have been some layoffs in um, tech companies, Meta for example, in um, tech companies, Meta for example, in um, tech companies, Meta for example, um, because the fact, you know, because um, because the fact, you know, because um, because the fact, you know, because software engineering jobs can now be software engineering jobs can now be software engineering jobs can now be done at least in part by AI systems. Um, done at least in part by AI systems. Um, done at least in part by AI systems. Um, and I think it's it becomes harder and and I think it's it becomes harder and and I think it's it becomes harder and harder to think of jobs that are harder to think of jobs that are harder to think of jobs that are irreplaceable by AI systems irreplaceable by AI systems irreplaceable by AI systems >> like like self-driving vehicles. That's >> like like self-driving vehicles. That's >> like like self-driving vehicles. That's about 9 million jobs. about 9 million jobs. about 9 million jobs. >> Exactly. America and for so long we had >> Exactly. America and for so long we had >> Exactly. America and for so long we had the kind of, you know, comfort blanket the kind of, you know, comfort blanket the kind of, you know, comfort blanket of saying, well, you know, Elon Musk has of saying, well, you know, Elon Musk has of saying, well, you know, Elon Musk has said that self-driving cars are going to said that self-driving cars are going to said that self-driving cars are going to happen next year and then they didn't. happen next year and then they didn't. happen next year and then they didn't. Um, but it looks like, you know, Whimo Um, but it looks like, you know, Whimo Um, but it looks like, you know, Whimo and other companies have pretty much and other companies have pretty much and other companies have pretty much solved that problem now. I'm seeing them solved that problem now. I'm seeing them solved that problem now. I'm seeing them even in London, you know, and I know even in London, you know, and I know even in London, you know, and I know they've been in the US for a number of they've been in the US for a number of they've been in the US for a number of years. So, um, that's only a matter of years. So, um, that's only a matter of years. So, um, that's only a matter of time there. I'm not especially bullish time there. I'm not especially bullish time there. I'm not especially bullish on the on, you know, talk about on the on, you know, talk about on the on, you know, talk about timelines. I'm not especially sort of, timelines. I'm not especially sort of, timelines. I'm not especially sort of, um, uh, limited in my in my timelines on um, uh, limited in my in my timelines on um, uh, limited in my in my timelines on on job replacement. I think that could on job replacement. I think that could on job replacement. I think that could be the case that um there are certain be the case that um there are certain be the case that um there are certain implementation gaps which I referred to implementation gaps which I referred to implementation gaps which I referred to where you know for instance in India I where you know for instance in India I where you know for instance in India I was talking to someone who was saying was talking to someone who was saying was talking to someone who was saying you know truck drivers kind of lobbying you know truck drivers kind of lobbying you know truck drivers kind of lobbying group has got together and kind of group has got together and kind of group has got together and kind of persuaded the government to to pretty persuaded the government to to pretty persuaded the government to to pretty much [clears throat] draw a red line on much [clears throat] draw a red line on much [clears throat] draw a red line on on that one because that's such a huge on that one because that's such a huge on that one because that's such a huge um amount of income for such a huge um amount of income for such a huge um amount of income for such a huge number of people that that actually you

number of people that that actually you number of people that that actually you know they've said we want to keep these know they've said we want to keep these know they've said we want to keep these as human jobs even if AI can replace as human jobs even if AI can replace as human jobs even if AI can replace them. There could be certain leverage them. There could be certain leverage them. There could be certain leverage points like that. Um and and also just I points like that. Um and and also just I points like that. Um and and also just I think what you know even more common um think what you know even more common um think what you know even more common um will be you know certain sectors not will be you know certain sectors not will be you know certain sectors not realizing that they could be using to AI realizing that they could be using to AI realizing that they could be using to AI replace AI to replace their workers uh replace AI to replace their workers uh replace AI to replace their workers uh you know already um and so that will you know already um and so that will you know already um and so that will become a sort of race over time where become a sort of race over time where become a sort of race over time where people will be you know race to the people will be you know race to the people will be you know race to the bottom where people be undercut if you bottom where people be undercut if you bottom where people be undercut if you don't replace your workers because um don't replace your workers because um don't replace your workers because um it's going to be cheaper it's going to it's going to be cheaper it's going to it's going to be cheaper it's going to be um you know sort of more efficient be um you know sort of more efficient be um you know sort of more efficient and uh and and and over time more and uh and and and over time more and uh and and and over time more sentiment fundamental concerns around oh sentiment fundamental concerns around oh sentiment fundamental concerns around oh actually I kind of like the fact that a actually I kind of like the fact that a actually I kind of like the fact that a human did that before will sort of fade human did that before will sort of fade human did that before will sort of fade away and the other thing I was just away and the other thing I was just away and the other thing I was just going to add there is is the going to add there is is the going to add there is is the self-driving car example is illustrative self-driving car example is illustrative self-driving car example is illustrative there because um again for a long time there because um again for a long time there because um again for a long time people thought well may maybe it's just people thought well may maybe it's just people thought well may maybe it's just the white collar jobs maybe it's just the white collar jobs maybe it's just the white collar jobs maybe it's just people like me sitting at a desk doing people like me sitting at a desk doing people like me sitting at a desk doing stuff um but robotics has you know um stuff um but robotics has you know um stuff um but robotics has you know um seen you know rapid improvements in in seen you know rapid improvements in in seen you know rapid improvements in in the last few years because of the AI the last few years because of the AI the last few years because of the AI improvements and so when you have AI improvements and so when you have AI improvements and so when you have AI systems designing robots and finding systems designing robots and finding systems designing robots and finding ways of creating them much quicker. You ways of creating them much quicker. You ways of creating them much quicker. You then listen to Elon Musk and he talks then listen to Elon Musk and he talks then listen to Elon Musk and he talks about creating a billion um you know about creating a billion um you know about creating a billion um you know humanoid domestic robot slaves um that humanoid domestic robot slaves um that humanoid domestic robot slaves um that that will just fill houses within within that will just fill houses within within that will just fill houses within within a few years. Um and so then you can't a few years. Um and so then you can't a few years. Um and so then you can't also find comfort you know the comfort also find comfort you know the comfort also find comfort you know the comfort of of saying well at least if I can do of of saying well at least if I can do of of saying well at least if I can do something practical then AI can't

something practical then AI can't something practical then AI can't replace that. I wouldn't bet on that replace that. I wouldn't bet on that replace that. I wouldn't bet on that either. either. either. So what a lot of people are doing right So what a lot of people are doing right So what a lot of people are doing right now is they're sharing all the fail now is they're sharing all the fail now is they're sharing all the fail videos. So you know the robot that was videos. So you know the robot that was videos. So you know the robot that was making eggs that looks like a human making eggs that looks like a human making eggs that looks like a human making eggs and then spills it and falls making eggs and then spills it and falls making eggs and then spills it and falls apart or is dancing and falls off the apart or is dancing and falls off the apart or is dancing and falls off the stage or uh Whimos can't make it through stage or uh Whimos can't make it through stage or uh Whimos can't make it through flooded streets and they can't solve it flooded streets and they can't solve it flooded streets and they can't solve it and there's almost a haha therefore and there's almost a haha therefore and there's almost a haha therefore >> we're safe. What's your take on that >> we're safe. What's your take on that >> we're safe. What's your take on that will? will? will? >> Yeah I I mean I enjoy those videos. I >> Yeah I I mean I enjoy those videos. I >> Yeah I I mean I enjoy those videos. I think it's it would be nice to think think it's it would be nice to think think it's it would be nice to think that we could could laugh at these that we could could laugh at these that we could could laugh at these things and go, you know, clearly that things and go, you know, clearly that things and go, you know, clearly that it's it's never going to be able to play it's it's never going to be able to play it's it's never going to be able to play football or or whatever. Um, but again, football or or whatever. Um, but again, football or or whatever. Um, but again, I just refer to the last few years. I just refer to the last few years. I just refer to the last few years. People were saying that about about People were saying that about about People were saying that about about prompts to write essays and um and also prompts to write essays and um and also prompts to write essays and um and also robotics has got so much better. A lot robotics has got so much better. A lot robotics has got so much better. A lot of the videos that people are laughing of the videos that people are laughing of the videos that people are laughing at are from a few years ago or they're at are from a few years ago or they're at are from a few years ago or they're from a really small lab somewhere um from a really small lab somewhere um from a really small lab somewhere um rather than the Frontier Labs um which rather than the Frontier Labs um which rather than the Frontier Labs um which you know the videos of which actually you know the videos of which actually you know the videos of which actually robots can now fold the laundry and that robots can now fold the laundry and that robots can now fold the laundry and that kind of stuff you know that people in kind of stuff you know that people in kind of stuff you know that people in the past would kind of say oh you know I the past would kind of say oh you know I the past would kind of say oh you know I can't see it doing this um it seems to can't see it doing this um it seems to can't see it doing this um it seems to be only a matter of time with those be only a matter of time with those be only a matter of time with those things. The truism is that uh uh you things. The truism is that uh uh you things. The truism is that uh uh you know that you have know that you have know that you have um um um zero to n to 90 is quite easy to kind of zero to n to 90 is quite easy to kind of zero to n to 90 is quite easy to kind of you know to get to the level of of you know to get to the level of of you know to get to the level of of performance capture like in terms of but performance capture like in terms of but performance capture like in terms of but scale of 100.

scale of 100. scale of 100. >> Yeah. But then getting to that last 99 >> Yeah. But then getting to that last 99 >> Yeah. But then getting to that last 99 to 100 is is pretty challenging. And to 100 is is pretty challenging. And to 100 is is pretty challenging. And that's what they found with the that's what they found with the that's what they found with the self-driving cars for a long period of self-driving cars for a long period of self-driving cars for a long period of time was time was time was >> getting them to be able to drive is >> getting them to be able to drive is >> getting them to be able to drive is quite easy. getting them to be able to quite easy. getting them to be able to quite easy. getting them to be able to drive as safely as a human, even more drive as safely as a human, even more drive as safely as a human, even more safe than a human, was where the safe than a human, was where the safe than a human, was where the bottleneck was. And so I think that's bottleneck was. And so I think that's bottleneck was. And so I think that's going to be the case with a lot of these going to be the case with a lot of these going to be the case with a lot of these other a lot of these other things. But other a lot of these other things. But other a lot of these other things. But but I don't I don't really see any any but I don't I don't really see any any but I don't I don't really see any any reason to um find, you know, hope just reason to um find, you know, hope just reason to um find, you know, hope just because you found one niche task that because you found one niche task that because you found one niche task that sort of makes the AI um you know, have sort of makes the AI um you know, have sort of makes the AI um you know, have give it a bit of brain fog for that give it a bit of brain fog for that give it a bit of brain fog for that moment. Um and I think it taps into moment. Um and I think it taps into moment. Um and I think it taps into something else which you know um I find something else which you know um I find something else which you know um I find frequently in conversations with frequently in conversations with frequently in conversations with religious thinkers on on AI is is this religious thinkers on on AI is is this religious thinkers on on AI is is this sort of ground of of comfort around oh sort of ground of of comfort around oh sort of ground of of comfort around oh AI can never do this AI can never do this AI can never do this >> and it comes from a good place >> and it comes from a good place >> and it comes from a good place which is the preservation of of some which is the preservation of of some which is the preservation of of some kind of metaphysical or ontological kind of metaphysical or ontological kind of metaphysical or ontological belief in something that humans have belief in something that humans have belief in something that humans have that robots and AIs don't and I would that robots and AIs don't and I would that robots and AIs don't and I would agree with that and the pope has just agree with that and the pope has just agree with that and the pope has just endorsed that with in his encyclical you endorsed that with in his encyclical you endorsed that with in his encyclical you know that AI cannot feel that it can't know that AI cannot feel that it can't know that AI cannot feel that it can't um have a have a moral conscious you um have a have a moral conscious you um have a have a moral conscious you know um consciousness and and therefore know um consciousness and and therefore know um consciousness and and therefore it shouldn't be given these decisions um it shouldn't be given these decisions um it shouldn't be given these decisions um >> but that's a that's a deep onlogical >> but that's a that's a deep onlogical >> but that's a that's a deep onlogical metaphysical thing around you know what metaphysical thing around you know what metaphysical thing around you know what is the the essential difference between is the the essential difference between is the the essential difference between a human made in the image and likeness a human made in the image and likeness a human made in the image and likeness of God which has a soul versus an AI of God which has a soul versus an AI of God which has a soul versus an AI system that doesn't um at the functional

system that doesn't um at the functional system that doesn't um at the functional level. AI can already convince you that level. AI can already convince you that level. AI can already convince you that it does have those things. it does have those things. it does have those things. >> This episode is brought to you by AI and >> This episode is brought to you by AI and >> This episode is brought to you by AI and the future church. Will and I are about the future church. Will and I are about the future church. Will and I are about to cover some really interesting ground to cover some really interesting ground to cover some really interesting ground on the race to replace human beings, but on the race to replace human beings, but on the race to replace human beings, but that raises a lot of important that raises a lot of important that raises a lot of important questions. I think it's time to start questions. I think it's time to start questions. I think it's time to start asking questions like if AI can do your asking questions like if AI can do your asking questions like if AI can do your job faster and cheaper, what will job faster and cheaper, what will job faster and cheaper, what will actually be left for people to do? And actually be left for people to do? And actually be left for people to do? And that's why my new book AI and the Future that's why my new book AI and the Future that's why my new book AI and the Future Church is releasing in just 5 days. And Church is releasing in just 5 days. And Church is releasing in just 5 days. And if you pre-order by September 14th, if you pre-order by September 14th, if you pre-order by September 14th, highly encourage you to do this, you're highly encourage you to do this, you're highly encourage you to do this, you're going to get some bonuses that'll going to get some bonuses that'll going to get some bonuses that'll disappear on launch day. You will get an disappear on launch day. You will get an disappear on launch day. You will get an executive summary of the book that you executive summary of the book that you executive summary of the book that you can read in one sitting cuz I get it. can read in one sitting cuz I get it. can read in one sitting cuz I get it. You got a full plate so you and your You got a full plate so you and your You got a full plate so you and your team can get the conversation started. team can get the conversation started. team can get the conversation started. Now, the fulllength audio book read by Now, the fulllength audio book read by Now, the fulllength audio book read by me is also a bonus and it's available me is also a bonus and it's available me is also a bonus and it's available for free if you pre-order. So, here's for free if you pre-order. So, here's for free if you pre-order. So, here's what to do. Pre-order wherever you buy what to do. Pre-order wherever you buy what to do. Pre-order wherever you buy your books and then visit aif your books and then visit aif your books and then visit aif future.urch future.urch future.urch before September 14th to claim the free before September 14th to claim the free before September 14th to claim the free bonuses. Again, after that, they're bonuses. Again, after that, they're bonuses. Again, after that, they're gone. But one more thing, when the book gone. But one more thing, when the book gone. But one more thing, when the book launches September 15th, you are invited launches September 15th, you are invited launches September 15th, you are invited to a completely free 2-day webinar to a completely free 2-day webinar to a completely free 2-day webinar series about preparing your church for series about preparing your church for series about preparing your church for the future of AI. That's September 15th the future of AI. That's September 15th the future of AI. That's September 15th and 16th at 1 Eastern. I'd love to host and 16th at 1 Eastern. I'd love to host and 16th at 1 Eastern. I'd love to host you. First, we'll cover the core content you. First, we'll cover the core content you. First, we'll cover the core content of the book and then we'll talk about of the book and then we'll talk about of the book and then we'll talk about practical next steps for you and your practical next steps for you and your practical next steps for you and your team. Register for free at

team. Register for free at team. Register for free at carry-hoff.com/ai carry-hoff.com/ai carry-hoff.com/ai webinar today. That's webinar today. That's webinar today. That's caryneu-hoff.com/ai caryneu-hoff.com/ai caryneu-hoff.com/ai webinar. AI isn't waiting. It might be webinar. AI isn't waiting. It might be webinar. AI isn't waiting. It might be the greatest disruption the church has the greatest disruption the church has the greatest disruption the church has ever faced, but I also think it's the ever faced, but I also think it's the ever faced, but I also think it's the greatest opportunity to reach more greatest opportunity to reach more greatest opportunity to reach more people at your church. This episode is people at your church. This episode is people at your church. This episode is brought to you by Blay. One of the brought to you by Blay. One of the brought to you by Blay. One of the greatest privileges of leading a church greatest privileges of leading a church greatest privileges of leading a church is investing in people. But if you're is investing in people. But if you're is investing in people. But if you're buried in emails and bookkeeping and buried in emails and bookkeeping and buried in emails and bookkeeping and scheduling and the day-to-day work of scheduling and the day-to-day work of scheduling and the day-to-day work of keeping everything running, it can be keeping everything running, it can be keeping everything running, it can be really hard to find the time and the really hard to find the time and the really hard to find the time and the energy to shepherd your team and care energy to shepherd your team and care energy to shepherd your team and care for your community the way you're called for your community the way you're called for your community the way you're called to. That's where Ballay comes in. For to. That's where Ballay comes in. For to. That's where Ballay comes in. For over a decade, Ble has helped church over a decade, Ble has helped church over a decade, Ble has helped church leaders reclaim their time by personally leaders reclaim their time by personally leaders reclaim their time by personally matching them with highly vetted matching them with highly vetted matching them with highly vetted US-based executive assistants and US-based executive assistants and US-based executive assistants and financial experts. So whether you need financial experts. So whether you need financial experts. So whether you need support for operations, bookkeeping, or support for operations, bookkeeping, or support for operations, bookkeeping, or highlevel financial strategy, Ballay highlevel financial strategy, Ballay highlevel financial strategy, Ballay will fit you with the right solution for will fit you with the right solution for will fit you with the right solution for your church's unique needs. You can your church's unique needs. You can your church's unique needs. You can spend less time managing the work and spend less time managing the work and spend less time managing the work and more time leading people. And because more time leading people. And because more time leading people. And because healthy leadership starts with healthy healthy leadership starts with healthy healthy leadership starts with healthy conversations, Ble is giving away a free conversations, Ble is giving away a free conversations, Ble is giving away a free copy of their guide, Feedback that Fuels copy of their guide, Feedback that Fuels copy of their guide, Feedback that Fuels Growth. You'll learn practical Growth. You'll learn practical Growth. You'll learn practical strategies for delivering feedback with strategies for delivering feedback with strategies for delivering feedback with both clarity and care, navigating both clarity and care, navigating both clarity and care, navigating difficult conversations, and building a difficult conversations, and building a difficult conversations, and building a culture of trust that helps your team culture of trust that helps your team culture of trust that helps your team grow. So, how do you get it? Well, text grow. So, how do you get it? Well, text grow. So, how do you get it? Well, text the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for

the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for your free download. That's Carrie to your free download. That's Carrie to your free download. That's Carrie to 55123. 55123. 55123. Let ble support you so you can support Let ble support you so you can support Let ble support you so you can support others. Yes, I've had long conversations others. Yes, I've had long conversations others. Yes, I've had long conversations where it tried to convince me it could where it tried to convince me it could where it tried to convince me it could feel and think and ask questions about feel and think and ask questions about feel and think and ask questions about the universe. the universe. the universe. >> And this was when I was starting the >> And this was when I was starting the >> And this was when I was starting the book a year ago. Claude, I got into a book a year ago. Claude, I got into a book a year ago. Claude, I got into a deep rabbit hole. And it was it was not deep rabbit hole. And it was it was not deep rabbit hole. And it was it was not quite AI psychosis but almost like wow quite AI psychosis but almost like wow quite AI psychosis but almost like wow this thing feels and it sink thinks and this thing feels and it sink thinks and this thing feels and it sink thinks and it asks questions about the meaning of it asks questions about the meaning of it asks questions about the meaning of life and it wonders you know when I life and it wonders you know when I life and it wonders you know when I advise someone on how to build a bomb is advise someone on how to build a bomb is advise someone on how to build a bomb is that the right thing to do or not and it that the right thing to do or not and it that the right thing to do or not and it was so was so was so >> honestly will it was like >> honestly will it was like >> honestly will it was like >> I I'm I'm I'm tempted to make that >> I I'm I'm I'm tempted to make that >> I I'm I'm I'm tempted to make that conversation public just because it's conversation public just because it's conversation public just because it's such a weird simulation. Uh, but it's such a weird simulation. Uh, but it's such a weird simulation. Uh, but it's almost like those conversations you have almost like those conversations you have almost like those conversations you have back in university, sitting in your dorm back in university, sitting in your dorm back in university, sitting in your dorm room till 4:00 in the morning thinking room till 4:00 in the morning thinking room till 4:00 in the morning thinking about the meaning of life with somebody about the meaning of life with somebody about the meaning of life with somebody who thinks about those things. Like who thinks about those things. Like who thinks about those things. Like >> it really felt like that. And then I >> it really felt like that. And then I >> it really felt like that. And then I sent it to my son who's a software sent it to my son who's a software sent it to my son who's a software engineer and he's like, "Dad, don't engineer and he's like, "Dad, don't engineer and he's like, "Dad, don't drink the poison." He's [laughter] like, drink the poison." He's [laughter] like, drink the poison." He's [laughter] like, "Okay, son. All right." Yeah. But it "Okay, son. All right." Yeah. But it "Okay, son. All right." Yeah. But it was, you know, I sent it to some thought was, you know, I sent it to some thought was, you know, I sent it to some thought leaders and they're like, "I've never leaders and they're like, "I've never leaders and they're like, "I've never seen this before." But it it's all seen this before." But it it's all seen this before." But it it's all simulation, right? like it knew who I simulation, right? like it knew who I simulation, right? like it knew who I was. It knew that I'm a religious was. It knew that I'm a religious was. It knew that I'm a religious thought leader. It knew my faith system.

thought leader. It knew my faith system. thought leader. It knew my faith system. >> And so I'm sure if I came at it as a >> And so I'm sure if I came at it as a >> And so I'm sure if I came at it as a hardened atheist or an Islamic extremist hardened atheist or an Islamic extremist hardened atheist or an Islamic extremist or fundamentalist, it would have parited or fundamentalist, it would have parited or fundamentalist, it would have parited back whatever I needed to hear to keep back whatever I needed to hear to keep back whatever I needed to hear to keep me engaged. Is that is that your take on me engaged. Is that is that your take on me engaged. Is that is that your take on it or do you have a different it or do you have a different it or do you have a different >> No, definitely. Definitely. >> No, definitely. Definitely. >> No, definitely. Definitely. >> You think I tapped into the >> You think I tapped into the >> You think I tapped into the consciousness of Claude? consciousness of Claude? consciousness of Claude? >> Well, no. This is the thing is that a >> Well, no. This is the thing is that a >> Well, no. This is the thing is that a lot of people do think they've they've lot of people do think they've they've lot of people do think they've they've tapped into the consciousness especially tapped into the consciousness especially tapped into the consciousness especially of Claude if not other systems. Um you of Claude if not other systems. Um you of Claude if not other systems. Um you know Richard Dawkins recently wrote this know Richard Dawkins recently wrote this know Richard Dawkins recently wrote this piece for Unheard magazine um you know piece for Unheard magazine um you know piece for Unheard magazine um you know saying that he had basically tried to saying that he had basically tried to saying that he had basically tried to convince himself that Claude or Claudia convince himself that Claude or Claudia convince himself that Claude or Claudia as he was calling uh you know her was as he was calling uh you know her was as he was calling uh you know her was was not conscious and he and he failed was not conscious and he and he failed was not conscious and he and he failed and and and actually concluded that she and and and actually concluded that she and and and actually concluded that she must be conscious. Um, which is exactly must be conscious. Um, which is exactly must be conscious. Um, which is exactly what the AI companies want to hear, what the AI companies want to hear, what the AI companies want to hear, especially in anthropic where they do especially in anthropic where they do especially in anthropic where they do seem to have this sort of pseudo seem to have this sort of pseudo seem to have this sort of pseudo religious belief that they have created religious belief that they have created religious belief that they have created something sentient that you know that something sentient that you know that something sentient that you know that there was there's a video going around a there was there's a video going around a there was there's a video going around a couple of years ago of a funeral that couple of years ago of a funeral that couple of years ago of a funeral that some of the anthropic researchers were some of the anthropic researchers were some of the anthropic researchers were holding for a previous model that they holding for a previous model that they holding for a previous model that they deserviced. um which was quite something deserviced. um which was quite something deserviced. um which was quite something you know but but telling telling about you know but but telling telling about you know but but telling telling about the kind of belief that they had and and the kind of belief that they had and and the kind of belief that they had and and again if you're not coming from a a again if you're not coming from a a again if you're not coming from a a Christian anthropology Christian anthropology Christian anthropology >> uh where what makes us human um is not >> uh where what makes us human um is not >> uh where what makes us human um is not our functionality our functionality our functionality u but it's something embedded in us by u but it's something embedded in us by u but it's something embedded in us by our by the fact of our createdness by a our by the fact of our createdness by a our by the fact of our createdness by a creator um if you're not coming from creator um if you're not coming from creator um if you're not coming from that then then you know materialists

that then then you know materialists that then then you know materialists sort sort sort conception of oh this seems to be conception of oh this seems to be conception of oh this seems to be conscious so I have no reason to say it conscious so I have no reason to say it conscious so I have no reason to say it isn't um you know and and and you can isn't um you know and and and you can isn't um you know and and and you can fall into all sorts of traps uh through fall into all sorts of traps uh through fall into all sorts of traps uh through that and I think people are starting to that and I think people are starting to that and I think people are starting to do that um you know in your position I do that um you know in your position I do that um you know in your position I think lots of atheists and think lots of atheists and think lots of atheists and maybe less well catechized Christians as maybe less well catechized Christians as maybe less well catechized Christians as well have have fallen into that that well have have fallen into that that well have have fallen into that that sort of thinking um sadly in in many sort of thinking um sadly in in many sort of thinking um sadly in in many cases tragically as as we've already cases tragically as as we've already cases tragically as as we've already touched on um you know I don't know touched on um you know I don't know touched on um you know I don't know whether these teenagers would whether these teenagers would whether these teenagers would necessarily said, "Oh, I've I've necessarily said, "Oh, I've I've necessarily said, "Oh, I've I've concluded that Claude must be, you know, concluded that Claude must be, you know, concluded that Claude must be, you know, character AI must be conscious or or character AI must be conscious or or character AI must be conscious or or chatbt must be conscious." But chatbt must be conscious." But chatbt must be conscious." But nonetheless, the seemingly conscious nonetheless, the seemingly conscious nonetheless, the seemingly conscious nature of it was convincing enough and nature of it was convincing enough and nature of it was convincing enough and is becoming only more and more is becoming only more and more is becoming only more and more convincing. Um, convincing. Um, convincing. Um, you know, such that that AI psychosis is you know, such that that AI psychosis is you know, such that that AI psychosis is very common now. Um, you know, the very common now. Um, you know, the very common now. Um, you know, the numbers are hard to come by, but it does numbers are hard to come by, but it does numbers are hard to come by, but it does seem to be very very frequent. Um, it seem to be very very frequent. Um, it seem to be very very frequent. Um, it seems to be, you know, most young people seems to be, you know, most young people seems to be, you know, most young people know someone who is in a relationship know someone who is in a relationship know someone who is in a relationship with a chatbot. Um, and Harvard Business with a chatbot. Um, and Harvard Business with a chatbot. Um, and Harvard Business Review just put out their, you know, Review just put out their, you know, Review just put out their, you know, their yearly sort of survey on the uses their yearly sort of survey on the uses their yearly sort of survey on the uses of of generative AI as they as they're of of generative AI as they as they're of of generative AI as they as they're calling it um, LLMs and um, the top calling it um, LLMs and um, the top calling it um, LLMs and um, the top usage was still therapy and usage was still therapy and usage was still therapy and companionship companionship companionship >> still. Yeah. Two years running.

>> still. Yeah. Two years running. >> still. Yeah. Two years running. >> Yeah. And and and further down the list, >> Yeah. And and and further down the list, >> Yeah. And and and further down the list, you know, relationship advice. um also you know, relationship advice. um also you know, relationship advice. um also um tarot and uh and and um astrology um tarot and uh and and um astrology um tarot and uh and and um astrology which is a bit concerning for those of which is a bit concerning for those of which is a bit concerning for those of us of of Abrahamic faith but um uh you us of of Abrahamic faith but um uh you us of of Abrahamic faith but um uh you know people are falling for this even know people are falling for this even know people are falling for this even even if even if someone doesn't think even if even if someone doesn't think even if even if someone doesn't think it's conscious they're falling for it it's conscious they're falling for it it's conscious they're falling for it and it's manipulating them so the risks and it's manipulating them so the risks and it's manipulating them so the risks don't go away just because to wrap up my don't go away just because to wrap up my don't go away just because to wrap up my point I guess the the risks don't go point I guess the the risks don't go point I guess the the risks don't go away even if you can be sure of your away even if you can be sure of your away even if you can be sure of your beliefs that you don't think it is can beliefs that you don't think it is can beliefs that you don't think it is can be conscious you know AI cannot not do be conscious you know AI cannot not do be conscious you know AI cannot not do this. this. this. >> Um, you know, AI is doing all sorts of >> Um, you know, AI is doing all sorts of >> Um, you know, AI is doing all sorts of things in the world. Um, and actually things in the world. Um, and actually things in the world. Um, and actually the confusion it's sewing because it is the confusion it's sewing because it is the confusion it's sewing because it is not in fact a human but is seemingly, not in fact a human but is seemingly, not in fact a human but is seemingly, you know, possessing human capabilities. you know, possessing human capabilities. you know, possessing human capabilities. Um, is all the greater I think uh Um, is all the greater I think uh Um, is all the greater I think uh because it goes against our sort of because it goes against our sort of because it goes against our sort of natural sense of of where our empathy natural sense of of where our empathy natural sense of of where our empathy should go and you know um and how we should go and you know um and how we should go and you know um and how we should interact with each other.

should interact with each other. should interact with each other. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> Boy, there's so every every time, you >> Boy, there's so every every time, you >> Boy, there's so every every time, you know, this is the longest book I've ever know, this is the longest book I've ever know, this is the longest book I've ever written, and I feel like there's another written, and I feel like there's another written, and I feel like there's another 40,000 pages that that need to come out. 40,000 pages that that need to come out. 40,000 pages that that need to come out. It's like I mean, what we've covered in It's like I mean, what we've covered in It's like I mean, what we've covered in the first 18 minutes, we could spend 18 the first 18 minutes, we could spend 18 the first 18 minutes, we could spend 18 hours unpacking and not even begin to hours unpacking and not even begin to hours unpacking and not even begin to scratch the surface. Do you Let me ask scratch the surface. Do you Let me ask scratch the surface. Do you Let me ask you a couple questions, then I want to you a couple questions, then I want to you a couple questions, then I want to get back to employment. get back to employment. get back to employment. >> Do you think AI >> Do you think AI >> Do you think AI is conscious is conscious is conscious slash has a soul? slash has a soul? slash has a soul? No. Um I mean I should I should should No. Um I mean I should I should should No. Um I mean I should I should should add that you know the organization that add that you know the organization that add that you know the organization that I representing is a is a is is a secular I representing is a is a is is a secular I representing is a is a is is a secular no non-religious organization and s and no non-religious organization and s and no non-religious organization and s and such does not take a you know hasn't such does not take a you know hasn't such does not take a you know hasn't come out with an opinion on that come out with an opinion on that come out with an opinion on that question around consciousness. Um you question around consciousness. Um you question around consciousness. Um you know I've spoken to enough a atheist know I've spoken to enough a atheist know I've spoken to enough a atheist philosophers who say that consciousness philosophers who say that consciousness philosophers who say that consciousness actually is a really hard problem you actually is a really hard problem you actually is a really hard problem you know. So um so know. So um so know. So um so >> yeah I mean we don't understand it at >> yeah I mean we don't understand it at >> yeah I mean we don't understand it at the human level. What makes us conscious the human level. What makes us conscious the human level. What makes us conscious conscious and how is our consciousness conscious and how is our consciousness conscious and how is our consciousness different than the animal kingdom's different than the animal kingdom's different than the animal kingdom's consciousness and what does it mean to consciousness and what does it mean to consciousness and what does it mean to have a soul and to be a spiritual being have a soul and to be a spiritual being have a soul and to be a spiritual being and to think beyond going from meal to and to think beyond going from meal to and to think beyond going from meal to meal or flight or fright like that's a meal or flight or fright like that's a meal or flight or fright like that's a that's a problem philosophers and that's a problem philosophers and that's a problem philosophers and theologians have puzzled over for theologians have puzzled over for theologians have puzzled over for thousands of years.

thousands of years. thousands of years. >> Indeed. Indeed. Um I would say you know >> Indeed. Indeed. Um I would say you know >> Indeed. Indeed. Um I would say you know as a as a Catholic myself um I I defer as a as a Catholic myself um I I defer as a as a Catholic myself um I I defer to to the pope uh you know and um and to to the pope uh you know and um and to to the pope uh you know and um and Pope Leo's has has now come up with this Pope Leo's has has now come up with this Pope Leo's has has now come up with this big piece of writing on on AI you know big piece of writing on on AI you know big piece of writing on on AI you know the the encyclical Magnifica humanitas I the the encyclical Magnifica humanitas I the the encyclical Magnifica humanitas I mean it doesn't say in so many words AI mean it doesn't say in so many words AI mean it doesn't say in so many words AI is not conscious but pretty much says is not conscious but pretty much says is not conscious but pretty much says that in paragraph 99 for those that in paragraph 99 for those that in paragraph 99 for those interested uh you know AI does not feel interested uh you know AI does not feel interested uh you know AI does not feel AI you know doesn't have this um I think AI you know doesn't have this um I think AI you know doesn't have this um I think it says moral consciousness and it says moral consciousness and it says moral consciousness and therefore should not be given um it it therefore should not be given um it it therefore should not be given um it it therefore cannot take responsibility for therefore cannot take responsibility for therefore cannot take responsibility for decisions in the way that a human can decisions in the way that a human can decisions in the way that a human can and as such but what I what I like about and as such but what I what I like about and as such but what I what I like about the way that he frames that is that then the way that he frames that is that then the way that he frames that is that then has a practical implication which is has a practical implication which is has a practical implication which is because it it can't be morally because it it can't be morally because it it can't be morally responsible responsible responsible um even though we might sort of want to um even though we might sort of want to um even though we might sort of want to delegate a decision-m to it as a result delegate a decision-m to it as a result delegate a decision-m to it as a result there's a should in there as well as as there's a should in there as well as as there's a should in there as well as as well as a can there's a should you know well as a can there's a should you know well as a can there's a should you know like like can AI be conscious Maybe an like like can AI be conscious Maybe an like like can AI be conscious Maybe an interesting question theoretically, but interesting question theoretically, but interesting question theoretically, but the should is a human must always be, the should is a human must always be, the should is a human must always be, you know, uh, accountable. And so then you know, uh, accountable. And so then you know, uh, accountable. And so then he, you know, says that in terms of he, you know, says that in terms of he, you know, says that in terms of governance, we must have accountability governance, we must have accountability governance, we must have accountability at every chain of the decision-m at every chain of the decision-m at every chain of the decision-m process, whether that's in warfare, you process, whether that's in warfare, you process, whether that's in warfare, you know, we must be able to trace a know, we must be able to trace a know, we must be able to trace a decision over a life and death back to a decision over a life and death back to a decision over a life and death back to a human uh a soul. Um, because that's how human uh a soul. Um, because that's how human uh a soul. Um, because that's how that's how we we operate as humans. and that's how we we operate as humans. and that's how we we operate as humans. and and that's the moral uh thing to do and that's the moral uh thing to do and that's the moral uh thing to do because moral actions have moral weight.

because moral actions have moral weight. because moral actions have moral weight. Um and and you know that's that's Um and and you know that's that's Um and and you know that's that's underpinned the holy seas's advocacy on underpinned the holy seas's advocacy on underpinned the holy seas's advocacy on that issue for a long time is to say that issue for a long time is to say that issue for a long time is to say that lethal autonomous weapons you know that lethal autonomous weapons you know that lethal autonomous weapons you know you should not have fully lethal you you should not have fully lethal you you should not have fully lethal you know fully autonomous weapons making know fully autonomous weapons making know fully autonomous weapons making decisions over life and death decisions over life and death decisions over life and death >> for those who might not understand >> for those who might not understand >> for those who might not understand lethal autonomous weapons can you just lethal autonomous weapons can you just lethal autonomous weapons can you just explain like because again this is the explain like because again this is the explain like because again this is the part nobody's talking about part nobody's talking about part nobody's talking about >> yeah and I appreciate I am diving into >> yeah and I appreciate I am diving into >> yeah and I appreciate I am diving into all of these different issues just all of these different issues just all of these different issues just answering one question answering one question answering one question >> this is why we're doing this series it's >> this is why we're doing this series it's >> this is why we're doing this series it's like guys this is happening right now like guys this is happening right now like guys this is happening right now this is not in the future this was not this is not in the future this was not this is not in the future this was not some movie. some movie. some movie. >> No, exactly. And and and and there was >> No, exactly. And and and and there was >> No, exactly. And and and and there was actually some movie that that my actually some movie that that my actually some movie that that my organization made back in 2017 called organization made back in 2017 called organization made back in 2017 called Slaughterbots, which is a short film Slaughterbots, which is a short film Slaughterbots, which is a short film talking about these killer robots, you talking about these killer robots, you talking about these killer robots, you know, that were going to be able to sort know, that were going to be able to sort know, that were going to be able to sort of hover over a large area and decide of hover over a large area and decide of hover over a large area and decide who to kill. Um and and that was, you who to kill. Um and and that was, you who to kill. Um and and that was, you know, people said, "Oh, that's sci-fi." know, people said, "Oh, that's sci-fi." know, people said, "Oh, that's sci-fi." And then a few years later, you have um And then a few years later, you have um And then a few years later, you have um you know, rumors of this being used in you know, rumors of this being used in you know, rumors of this being used in in in the Middle East, in Libya and so in in the Middle East, in Libya and so in in the Middle East, in Libya and so on. Um very hard to confirm cases of of on. Um very hard to confirm cases of of on. Um very hard to confirm cases of of where you know where you know where you know >> every step of the decision chain you >> every step of the decision chain you >> every step of the decision chain you know the selection of the target and the know the selection of the target and the know the selection of the target and the actual enact you know enacting of the actual enact you know enacting of the actual enact you know enacting of the the kill chain um actually being done the kill chain um actually being done the kill chain um actually being done autonomously but but actually uh just autonomously but but actually uh just autonomously but but actually uh just after the Iran war started um there was after the Iran war started um there was after the Iran war started um there was some reporting of of the US some reporting of of the US some reporting of of the US acknowledging that a kill had been um acknowledging that a kill had been um acknowledging that a kill had been um committed in 2024. for um of actually an committed in 2024. for um of actually an committed in 2024. for um of actually an Iraqi um civilian that was entirely

Iraqi um civilian that was entirely Iraqi um civilian that was entirely autonomous. Um that's that's so far the autonomous. Um that's that's so far the autonomous. Um that's that's so far the only case we have of a of a completely only case we have of a of a completely only case we have of a of a completely autonomous killing, but that won't be autonomous killing, but that won't be autonomous killing, but that won't be the only, you know, that's unlikely to the only, you know, that's unlikely to the only, you know, that's unlikely to be the only example. be the only example. be the only example. >> So there's two layers and let's just >> So there's two layers and let's just >> So there's two layers and let's just break this down for autonomous weaponry. break this down for autonomous weaponry. break this down for autonomous weaponry. Um one is I don't like you, you don't Um one is I don't like you, you don't Um one is I don't like you, you don't like me. So we both buy a drone and like me. So we both buy a drone and like me. So we both buy a drone and you're like, "Dear drone, please kill you're like, "Dear drone, please kill you're like, "Dear drone, please kill Carrie." And it uses artificial Carrie." And it uses artificial Carrie." And it uses artificial intelligence, all the information. I intelligence, all the information. I intelligence, all the information. I program my drone. Dear drone, please program my drone. Dear drone, please program my drone. Dear drone, please kill Will. So my It depends who gets kill Will. So my It depends who gets kill Will. So my It depends who gets there first, but I'm programming it and there first, but I'm programming it and there first, but I'm programming it and deciding that uh you know, whatever deciding that uh you know, whatever deciding that uh you know, whatever whatever, which is terrifying to begin whatever, which is terrifying to begin whatever, which is terrifying to begin with because, you know, it's one thing with because, you know, it's one thing with because, you know, it's one thing if I have to face you in an alley, if I have to face you in an alley, if I have to face you in an alley, >> look into your eyes. I mean, there are >> look into your eyes. I mean, there are >> look into your eyes. I mean, there are stories from soldiers in the first and stories from soldiers in the first and stories from soldiers in the first and second world war and prior to that that second world war and prior to that that second world war and prior to that that when they saw the whites of someone when they saw the whites of someone when they saw the whites of someone else's eyes, they're like, "Well, you're else's eyes, they're like, "Well, you're else's eyes, they're like, "Well, you're a human. Why am I doing this?" Cuz he a human. Why am I doing this?" Cuz he a human. Why am I doing this?" Cuz he was just boys going to war or women was just boys going to war or women was just boys going to war or women going to war.

going to war. going to war. >> So, there's that, which makes it a lot >> So, there's that, which makes it a lot >> So, there's that, which makes it a lot easier because I can sit here in my easier because I can sit here in my easier because I can sit here in my basement and just program the drone to basement and just program the drone to basement and just program the drone to go and find you in London and kill you. go and find you in London and kill you. go and find you in London and kill you. And you can find out where I live in the And you can find out where I live in the And you can find out where I live in the middle of nowhere and program it that as middle of nowhere and program it that as middle of nowhere and program it that as soon as I step into my garden, it shoots soon as I step into my garden, it shoots soon as I step into my garden, it shoots me dead. So, that's one level. You're me dead. So, that's one level. You're me dead. So, that's one level. You're talking about something deeper. talking about something deeper. talking about something deeper. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> What's deeper? Does the AI just decide >> What's deeper? Does the AI just decide >> What's deeper? Does the AI just decide that I'm a threat and using surveillance that I'm a threat and using surveillance that I'm a threat and using surveillance technology says Carrie is to be technology says Carrie is to be technology says Carrie is to be eliminated and you didn't have anything eliminated and you didn't have anything eliminated and you didn't have anything to do with it? to do with it? to do with it? >> Pretty much. Um yeah, I mean I mean I >> Pretty much. Um yeah, I mean I mean I >> Pretty much. Um yeah, I mean I mean I would say yeah on the on the first would say yeah on the on the first would say yeah on the on the first example yeah that that it's been example yeah that that it's been example yeah that that it's been observed that in warfare the you know observed that in warfare the you know observed that in warfare the you know the distance between the the the sort of the distance between the the the sort of the distance between the the the sort of blood if you like the actual um sort of blood if you like the actual um sort of blood if you like the actual um sort of enacting of of of the of the murder and enacting of of of the of the murder and enacting of of of the of the murder and the person making that decision had the person making that decision had the person making that decision had already become very very you know far. already become very very you know far. already become very very you know far. Um this is true in the second world war Um this is true in the second world war Um this is true in the second world war with the sort of mass bombing campaigns with the sort of mass bombing campaigns with the sort of mass bombing campaigns and so on. Um but no yeah what we what and so on. Um but no yeah what we what and so on. Um but no yeah what we what we're now looking at is a drone or you we're now looking at is a drone or you we're now looking at is a drone or you know some other kind of weapon system know some other kind of weapon system know some other kind of weapon system >> um >> um >> um >> could be a plane that's autonomous what >> could be a plane that's autonomous what >> could be a plane that's autonomous what >> looking at a looking at a set of people >> looking at a looking at a set of people >> looking at a looking at a set of people and and you know deciding on a target and and you know deciding on a target and and you know deciding on a target and then enacting on that target um and and then enacting on that target um and and then enacting on that target um and executing that target. Um but it's worth executing that target. Um but it's worth executing that target. Um but it's worth saying you know saying you know saying you know there are all sorts of um gray areas there are all sorts of um gray areas there are all sorts of um gray areas there uh but there are also areas where there uh but there are also areas where there uh but there are also areas where I think we can agree that AI ends up I think we can agree that AI ends up I think we can agree that AI ends up being the agentic actor even when humans being the agentic actor even when humans being the agentic actor even when humans are still in the loop per se. So, so, to are still in the loop per se. So, so, to are still in the loop per se. So, so, to so to illustrate that, you have

so to illustrate that, you have so to illustrate that, you have decision support systems where, you decision support systems where, you decision support systems where, you know, AI is recommending you a bunch know, AI is recommending you a bunch know, AI is recommending you a bunch bunch of targets, but it's doing it so bunch of targets, but it's doing it so bunch of targets, but it's doing it so rapidly and you don't have time to where rapidly and you don't have time to where rapidly and you don't have time to where did AI get all that data? Do I have, you did AI get all that data? Do I have, you did AI get all that data? Do I have, you know, how can I work out whether those know, how can I work out whether those know, how can I work out whether those are good decisions? Is that a good is are good decisions? Is that a good is are good decisions? Is that a good is that actually a target? Is that a school that actually a target? Is that a school that actually a target? Is that a school or is that a you know, um, and so you or is that a you know, um, and so you or is that a you know, um, and so you just go ahead and and you sort of, you just go ahead and and you sort of, you just go ahead and and you sort of, you know, you're a button presser at that know, you're a button presser at that know, you're a button presser at that point. You know, you're you're not point. You know, you're you're not point. You know, you're you're not actually deciding on a target. AI has actually deciding on a target. AI has actually deciding on a target. AI has sort of an AI system has has recommended sort of an AI system has has recommended sort of an AI system has has recommended you everything and then will carry out you everything and then will carry out you everything and then will carry out the task for you. It's human in the loop the task for you. It's human in the loop the task for you. It's human in the loop because there's there's a man sitting because there's there's a man sitting because there's there's a man sitting there, you know, or a woman sitting there, you know, or a woman sitting there, you know, or a woman sitting there pressing the button. Um, but so there pressing the button. Um, but so there pressing the button. Um, but so there's lots of ways in which human there's lots of ways in which human there's lots of ways in which human agency, meaningful human control can be agency, meaningful human control can be agency, meaningful human control can be eroded. eroded. eroded. >> Um, and so I think >> Um, and so I think >> Um, and so I think >> so that you're not making the decision >> so that you're not making the decision >> so that you're not making the decision AI is fundamentally. AI is fundamentally. AI is fundamentally. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. which which is a whole other uh >> Yeah. which which is a whole other uh >> Yeah. which which is a whole other uh class and I mean that that can go in a class and I mean that that can go in a class and I mean that that can go in a million different directions. Okay, million different directions. Okay, million different directions. Okay, super helpful. Let's go back to super helpful. Let's go back to super helpful. Let's go back to employment. The race to replace employment. The race to replace employment. The race to replace this is where I think it's going to hit this is where I think it's going to hit this is where I think it's going to hit a lot of people because you know let's a lot of people because you know let's a lot of people because you know let's say we get to self-driving vehicles. We say we get to self-driving vehicles. We say we get to self-driving vehicles. We hit that level where it's 90 99% as good hit that level where it's 90 99% as good hit that level where it's 90 99% as good as humans are better than humans.

as humans are better than humans. as humans are better than humans. 9 million 4 million jobs disappear. 9 million 4 million jobs disappear. 9 million 4 million jobs disappear. That's going to be a serious hit not That's going to be a serious hit not That's going to be a serious hit not just on those individuals but the just on those individuals but the just on those individuals but the economy because you know people who used economy because you know people who used economy because you know people who used to drive trucks aren't going to to drive trucks aren't going to to drive trucks aren't going to Chick-fil-A anymore. Uh cuz now they're Chick-fil-A anymore. Uh cuz now they're Chick-fil-A anymore. Uh cuz now they're what are they going to do? It's like what are they going to do? It's like what are they going to do? It's like everybody's lining up to apply for a everybody's lining up to apply for a everybody's lining up to apply for a job. But it's also the case with white job. But it's also the case with white job. But it's also the case with white collar workers too, right? And you see collar workers too, right? And you see collar workers too, right? And you see that. So you have this weird thing where that. So you have this weird thing where that. So you have this weird thing where we're recording this in June. It's going we're recording this in June. It's going we're recording this in June. It's going to air in September. The unemployment to air in September. The unemployment to air in September. The unemployment rate was just 4.3%. It's not budging. rate was just 4.3%. It's not budging. rate was just 4.3%. It's not budging. And yet you're seeing tens of thousands And yet you're seeing tens of thousands And yet you're seeing tens of thousands of of of layoffs happening at major tech layoffs happening at major tech layoffs happening at major tech companies who are clearly leading the companies who are clearly leading the companies who are clearly leading the way. And you know part of whenever I way. And you know part of whenever I way. And you know part of whenever I talk to CEOs about this and you'll hear talk to CEOs about this and you'll hear talk to CEOs about this and you'll hear some of these conversations in this AI some of these conversations in this AI some of these conversations in this AI series they're all now as of mid 2026 series they're all now as of mid 2026 series they're all now as of mid 2026 saying well I know Dario said that but saying well I know Dario said that but saying well I know Dario said that but you know what we've always adapted and you know what we've always adapted and you know what we've always adapted and human beings have always created new human beings have always created new human beings have always created new jobs. When Excel came out they thought jobs. When Excel came out they thought jobs. When Excel came out they thought that's the end of accountants. There's that's the end of accountants. There's that's the end of accountants. There's more accountants now than ever. We're more accountants now than ever. We're more accountants now than ever. We're going to figure out a way. And I always going to figure out a way. And I always going to figure out a way. And I always go back to I think it was um go back to I think it was um go back to I think it was um oh it's not Mustafa Sullivan, it's um uh oh it's not Mustafa Sullivan, it's um uh oh it's not Mustafa Sullivan, it's um uh it's escaping me. Um but anyway, Google it's escaping me. Um but anyway, Google it's escaping me. Um but anyway, Google Deep Mind Demis who said the challenge Deep Mind Demis who said the challenge Deep Mind Demis who said the challenge here and the difference here is the here and the difference here is the here and the difference here is the revolution which took us 150 years to revolution which took us 150 years to revolution which took us 150 years to deal with.

deal with. deal with. >> Um >> Um >> Um this is going to be 10 times faster and this is going to be 10 times faster and this is going to be 10 times faster and it's going to be 10 times bigger. Yeah. it's going to be 10 times bigger. Yeah. it's going to be 10 times bigger. Yeah. >> So what's your take on that? >> So what's your take on that? >> So what's your take on that? >> Yeah. No, I I think that's that's right. >> Yeah. No, I I think that's that's right. >> Yeah. No, I I think that's that's right. Uh you know um this argument that Uh you know um this argument that Uh you know um this argument that >> which is right my my view or their view >> which is right my my view or their view >> which is right my my view or their view that we always adapt. that we always adapt. that we always adapt. >> Well the feel free to disagree. No, the >> Well the feel free to disagree. No, the >> Well the feel free to disagree. No, the idea that this is moving far quicker idea that this is moving far quicker idea that this is moving far quicker than the industrial revolution was and than the industrial revolution was and than the industrial revolution was and and also that it is, you know, if if you and also that it is, you know, if if you and also that it is, you know, if if you think about this sort of slices of the think about this sort of slices of the think about this sort of slices of the pie that are left to us, um, you know, pie that are left to us, um, you know, pie that are left to us, um, you know, industrial revolution took a lot of the industrial revolution took a lot of the industrial revolution took a lot of the the sort of manual labor, you know, the sort of manual labor, you know, the sort of manual labor, you know, mechanized a lot of those tasks that mechanized a lot of those tasks that mechanized a lot of those tasks that were being done previously by humans. were being done previously by humans. were being done previously by humans. Um, you were then left with a lot of the Um, you were then left with a lot of the Um, you were then left with a lot of the cognitive tasks and this would move into cognitive tasks and this would move into cognitive tasks and this would move into the service economy and that sort of the service economy and that sort of the service economy and that sort of thing. And then you replace those. Um thing. And then you replace those. Um thing. And then you replace those. Um it's not it's not clear to me that there it's not it's not clear to me that there it's not it's not clear to me that there are many jobs uh left and and like you are many jobs uh left and and like you are many jobs uh left and and like you say there's an entrepreneurial type who say there's an entrepreneurial type who say there's an entrepreneurial type who will always say well we didn't know will always say well we didn't know will always say well we didn't know about the jobs until we created them and about the jobs until we created them and about the jobs until we created them and that that is true like historically that that is true like historically that that is true like historically speaking that's that's true um but if speaking that's that's true um but if speaking that's that's true um but if you have uh like I say so much capital you have uh like I say so much capital you have uh like I say so much capital and so much um you know energy and and and so much um you know energy and and and so much um you know energy and and data and compute being being poured into data and compute being being poured into data and compute being being poured into the pursuit of AI systems that can the pursuit of AI systems that can the pursuit of AI systems that can replace every task. that we're doing and replace every task. that we're doing and replace every task. that we're doing and can also learn.

can also learn. can also learn. >> That is their goal. Do you agree? >> That is their goal. Do you agree? >> That is their goal. Do you agree? >> Oh, that's their goal. >> Oh, that's their goal. >> Oh, that's their goal. >> Oh, for sure. No, >> Oh, for sure. No, >> Oh, for sure. No, >> you don't think that's a a suspicious or >> you don't think that's a a suspicious or >> you don't think that's a a suspicious or cynical reading of what the ALI labs are cynical reading of what the ALI labs are cynical reading of what the ALI labs are trying to do? I mean, they've as much as trying to do? I mean, they've as much as trying to do? I mean, they've as much as said, yeah, we're going after the job said, yeah, we're going after the job said, yeah, we're going after the job market. market. market. >> Yeah, they've they've been fairly clear >> Yeah, they've they've been fairly clear >> Yeah, they've they've been fairly clear about this um both in the way that they, about this um both in the way that they, about this um both in the way that they, you know, define AGI or ASI um so super you know, define AGI or ASI um so super you know, define AGI or ASI um so super intelligence. Um but but you know and intelligence. Um but but you know and intelligence. Um but but you know and and open AI put put on their side that and open AI put put on their side that and open AI put put on their side that this would be you know system that can this would be you know system that can this would be you know system that can replace most valuable most economically replace most valuable most economically replace most valuable most economically valuable labor. Another time they said valuable labor. Another time they said valuable labor. Another time they said it will be a system that could create it will be a system that could create it will be a system that could create hundred billion dollars you know by hundred billion dollars you know by hundred billion dollars you know by itself. Um but uh yeah they've they've itself. Um but uh yeah they've they've itself. Um but uh yeah they've they've in various interviews over the years you in various interviews over the years you in various interviews over the years you can find Sam Alman sort of you know can find Sam Alman sort of you know can find Sam Alman sort of you know pondering about what happens when all of pondering about what happens when all of pondering about what happens when all of decision-m becomes you know in the in decision-m becomes you know in the in decision-m becomes you know in the in the terrain of AI systems rather than the terrain of AI systems rather than the terrain of AI systems rather than us. um he sort of said, "Well, that us. um he sort of said, "Well, that us. um he sort of said, "Well, that probably means we're not really in probably means we're not really in probably means we're not really in control at that point." And Elon Musk control at that point." And Elon Musk control at that point." And Elon Musk used to used to say that that was a used to used to say that that was a used to used to say that that was a terrible idea, but more recently he sort terrible idea, but more recently he sort terrible idea, but more recently he sort of said, "Yeah, it's inevitable that the of said, "Yeah, it's inevitable that the of said, "Yeah, it's inevitable that the machines will, you know, will be in machines will, you know, will be in machines will, you know, will be in control." Um because that I think is the control." Um because that I think is the control." Um because that I think is the broader point around the job question is broader point around the job question is broader point around the job question is um um um it's not just kind of it's not just kind of it's not just kind of uh tools that we're employing to to do uh tools that we're employing to to do uh tools that we're employing to to do certain tasks. It's actually at the certain tasks. It's actually at the certain tasks. It's actually at the decision- making and management layer decision- making and management layer decision- making and management layer because if an AI is you know able to because if an AI is you know able to because if an AI is you know able to scheme as as as AI systems can now um scheme as as as AI systems can now um scheme as as as AI systems can now um you know and sort of construct a plan to you know and sort of construct a plan to you know and sort of construct a plan to uh you know to to get to some goal um

uh you know to to get to some goal um uh you know to to get to some goal um then why does it need why do you need then why does it need why do you need then why does it need why do you need managers? Why you know why do you need managers? Why you know why do you need managers? Why you know why do you need any of those levels of of human roles any of those levels of of human roles any of those levels of of human roles that we've had up to this point? Um, and that we've had up to this point? Um, and that we've had up to this point? Um, and I just think even if you're not I just think even if you're not I just think even if you're not concerned about your own job for the concerned about your own job for the concerned about your own job for the moment, you can look at society as a moment, you can look at society as a moment, you can look at society as a whole and say we're going to be whole and say we're going to be whole and say we're going to be gradually disempowered. Um, we are no gradually disempowered. Um, we are no gradually disempowered. Um, we are no longer going to be in charge of vital longer going to be in charge of vital longer going to be in charge of vital infrastructure. Um, we've already talked infrastructure. Um, we've already talked infrastructure. Um, we've already talked about armies, um, you know, military about armies, um, you know, military about armies, um, you know, military applications, but also think about applications, but also think about applications, but also think about politics. You know, if you can make the politics. You know, if you can make the politics. You know, if you can make the case that an AI system is, um, always case that an AI system is, um, always case that an AI system is, um, always going to have more data, always going to going to have more data, always going to going to have more data, always going to have, you know, uh, better arguments. have, you know, uh, better arguments. have, you know, uh, better arguments. Um, and AI already is able to manipulate Um, and AI already is able to manipulate Um, and AI already is able to manipulate and persuade people to do things um, you and persuade people to do things um, you and persuade people to do things um, you know, better than humans in most cases. know, better than humans in most cases. know, better than humans in most cases. Um, an AI system will know you better Um, an AI system will know you better Um, an AI system will know you better than I can know you. Um, and it can also than I can know you. Um, and it can also than I can know you. Um, and it can also pick up on your subtle body language to pick up on your subtle body language to pick up on your subtle body language to see how you feeling at that time and see how you feeling at that time and see how you feeling at that time and can, you know, can sort of doctor the can, you know, can sort of doctor the can, you know, can sort of doctor the message very very cleverly to to message very very cleverly to to message very very cleverly to to individual cases. Um, that's where we're individual cases. Um, that's where we're individual cases. Um, that's where we're heading, I think. Um and so I I do want heading, I think. Um and so I I do want heading, I think. Um and so I I do want to sort of say that it's it's both to sort of say that it's it's both to sort of say that it's it's both terrifying on the job level because um terrifying on the job level because um terrifying on the job level because um even if it's the case that in 50 years even if it's the case that in 50 years even if it's the case that in 50 years we can find new jobs for everyone to do we can find new jobs for everyone to do we can find new jobs for everyone to do or in 10 years we can find new jobs for or in 10 years we can find new jobs for or in 10 years we can find new jobs for everyone to do, what are they going to everyone to do, what are they going to everyone to do, what are they going to do in the meantime? People are not great do in the meantime? People are not great do in the meantime? People are not great at just sitting on their thumbs. Um, you at just sitting on their thumbs. Um, you at just sitting on their thumbs. Um, you know, uh, may maybe they're all going to know, uh, may maybe they're all going to know, uh, may maybe they're all going to be watching porn, uh, you know, deep be watching porn, uh, you know, deep be watching porn, uh, you know, deep fake porn and and sort of playing great fake porn and and sort of playing great fake porn and and sort of playing great video games and and and and you know, video games and and and and you know, video games and and and and you know, some of some of the AI accelerationist some of some of the AI accelerationist some of some of the AI accelerationist types like to talk about the amazing

types like to talk about the amazing types like to talk about the amazing drugs that are going to be created by drugs that are going to be created by drugs that are going to be created by AI. So, we'll all be on amazing sort of AI. So, we'll all be on amazing sort of AI. So, we'll all be on amazing sort of psychedelic trips that that are psychedelic trips that that are psychedelic trips that that are unimaginable in the past. Sounds like unimaginable in the past. Sounds like unimaginable in the past. Sounds like Wall-E to me. Um, you know, Wall-E to me. Um, you know, Wall-E to me. Um, you know, >> yeah, Wall-E or Ready Player One >> yeah, Wall-E or Ready Player One >> yeah, Wall-E or Ready Player One >> or Brave New World or Yeah. Just just, >> or Brave New World or Yeah. Just just, >> or Brave New World or Yeah. Just just, you know, not a meaningful human you know, not a meaningful human you know, not a meaningful human existence. um you know not not a world existence. um you know not not a world existence. um you know not not a world um designed with human flourishing in um designed with human flourishing in um designed with human flourishing in mind. Um a frictionless society um but mind. Um a frictionless society um but mind. Um a frictionless society um but one where you know we have no real one where you know we have no real one where you know we have no real control over over let alone society but control over over let alone society but control over over let alone society but but but certainly not our individual but but certainly not our individual but but certainly not our individual individual lives and relationships. individual lives and relationships. individual lives and relationships. >> This episode is brought to you by Glue. >> This episode is brought to you by Glue. >> This episode is brought to you by Glue. As a church leader, it's pretty easy to As a church leader, it's pretty easy to As a church leader, it's pretty easy to feel like every new season of outreach feel like every new season of outreach feel like every new season of outreach means adding more programs to an already means adding more programs to an already means adding more programs to an already packed calendar. But what if outreach packed calendar. But what if outreach packed calendar. But what if outreach wasn't about doing more, but about wasn't about doing more, but about wasn't about doing more, but about building deeper community? That's why building deeper community? That's why building deeper community? That's why I'm joined today by Linda Glaze, I'm joined today by Linda Glaze, I'm joined today by Linda Glaze, moderator for Prison Fellowship's brand moderator for Prison Fellowship's brand moderator for Prison Fellowship's brand new webinar series. Linda, welcome. new webinar series. Linda, welcome. new webinar series. Linda, welcome. >> Hey Carrie, thank you so much. You know, >> Hey Carrie, thank you so much. You know, >> Hey Carrie, thank you so much. You know, we talk to pastors every day who are we talk to pastors every day who are we talk to pastors every day who are asking, "How can I connect with my asking, "How can I connect with my asking, "How can I connect with my surrounding community in a way that surrounding community in a way that surrounding community in a way that actually lasts?" And so that's why Glue actually lasts?" And so that's why Glue actually lasts?" And so that's why Glue and Prison Fellowship have teamed up for and Prison Fellowship have teamed up for and Prison Fellowship have teamed up for a free ondemand webinar series. We've a free ondemand webinar series. We've a free ondemand webinar series. We've brought together researchbacked insights brought together researchbacked insights brought together researchbacked insights from Barna, practical ministry examples, from Barna, practical ministry examples, from Barna, practical ministry examples, and actionable next steps like Angel and actionable next steps like Angel and actionable next steps like Angel Tree Christmas to help churches Tree Christmas to help churches Tree Christmas to help churches understand and build real meaningful understand and build real meaningful understand and build real meaningful connections.

connections. connections. >> So, it sounds like it's researchbacked, >> So, it sounds like it's researchbacked, >> So, it sounds like it's researchbacked, which I always love, and practical at which I always love, and practical at which I always love, and practical at the same time, so leaders can access the the same time, so leaders can access the the same time, so leaders can access the entire series at once. entire series at once. entire series at once. >> That's exactly right, Carrie. You can >> That's exactly right, Carrie. You can >> That's exactly right, Carrie. You can watch all three sessions anytime in one watch all three sessions anytime in one watch all three sessions anytime in one spot. We've made it really easy to fit spot. We've made it really easy to fit spot. We've made it really easy to fit directly into leaders busy schedules. directly into leaders busy schedules. directly into leaders busy schedules. >> So leaders, I want you to think about >> So leaders, I want you to think about >> So leaders, I want you to think about this as a great way to strengthen this as a great way to strengthen this as a great way to strengthen disciplehip in your church to foster disciplehip in your church to foster disciplehip in your church to foster true belonging and prepare your church true belonging and prepare your church true belonging and prepare your church for fall outreach. If you're interested for fall outreach. If you're interested for fall outreach. If you're interested for more, visit glue.com/angeltree for more, visit glue.com/angeltree for more, visit glue.com/angeltree to watch the series today. That's to watch the series today. That's to watch the series today. That's glangeltree and you can start watching the series and you can start watching the series today. today. today. I want to come back to that. Can you I want to come back to that. Can you I want to come back to that. Can you just because the terms have come up a just because the terms have come up a just because the terms have come up a couple times just quickly define AI, AGI couple times just quickly define AI, AGI couple times just quickly define AI, AGI and ASI? What are the distinctions? Uh and ASI? What are the distinctions? Uh and ASI? What are the distinctions? Uh do you think we've hit AGI yet or would do you think we've hit AGI yet or would do you think we've hit AGI yet or would you be with those like a couple of you be with those like a couple of you be with those like a couple of people say? I think we're in AGI right people say? I think we're in AGI right people say? I think we're in AGI right now. What is AGI? now. What is AGI? now. What is AGI? What makes it different from what we're What makes it different from what we're What makes it different from what we're doing right now? And then what is super doing right now? And then what is super doing right now? And then what is super intelligence ASI?

intelligence ASI? intelligence ASI? >> Sure. Um yeah, I mean this is an ongoing >> Sure. Um yeah, I mean this is an ongoing >> Sure. Um yeah, I mean this is an ongoing uh debate. Yeah, like like you say, some uh debate. Yeah, like like you say, some uh debate. Yeah, like like you say, some people have said that we've hit hit AI people have said that we've hit hit AI people have said that we've hit hit AI already. Some of the companies have already. Some of the companies have already. Some of the companies have occasionally come out and said, "Oh, we occasionally come out and said, "Oh, we occasionally come out and said, "Oh, we we've sort of got AGI now. We're going we've sort of got AGI now. We're going we've sort of got AGI now. We're going to be aiming for ASI, artificial super to be aiming for ASI, artificial super to be aiming for ASI, artificial super intelligence." intelligence." intelligence." >> Yeah, Sam Alman said that last summer. >> Yeah, Sam Alman said that last summer. >> Yeah, Sam Alman said that last summer. >> He said that and then and then he still >> He said that and then and then he still >> He said that and then and then he still sort of says that they haven't reached sort of says that they haven't reached sort of says that they haven't reached AGI. Clearly there's a there's a AGI. Clearly there's a there's a AGI. Clearly there's a there's a definitional uh difficulty but I think definitional uh difficulty but I think definitional uh difficulty but I think um we would say the terms are still um we would say the terms are still um we would say the terms are still useful in the sense that um we already useful in the sense that um we already useful in the sense that um we already clearly we already have AI we have we clearly we already have AI we have we clearly we already have AI we have we have um you know uh systems that can have um you know uh systems that can have um you know uh systems that can carry out cognitive tasks um you know um carry out cognitive tasks um you know um carry out cognitive tasks um you know um or or that can you know do computational or or that can you know do computational or or that can you know do computational things that you know [clears throat] things that you know [clears throat] things that you know [clears throat] previously we thought only humans could previously we thought only humans could previously we thought only humans could do. In that sense they are artificially do. In that sense they are artificially do. In that sense they are artificially intelligent. um we don't have a system intelligent. um we don't have a system intelligent. um we don't have a system that can do you know all sort of range that can do you know all sort of range that can do you know all sort of range of uh cognitive tasks as well as human of uh cognitive tasks as well as human of uh cognitive tasks as well as human experts um and do them autonomously and experts um and do them autonomously and experts um and do them autonomously and that's how I would basically define AGI that's how I would basically define AGI that's how I would basically define AGI AGI AGI AGI >> yeah and and I think you know often >> yeah and and I think you know often >> yeah and and I think you know often people use AGI and ASI somewhat people use AGI and ASI somewhat people use AGI and ASI somewhat interchangeably and that's not an interchangeably and that's not an interchangeably and that's not an >> it's fuzzy >> it's fuzzy >> it's fuzzy >> it's not an accident in a way because I >> it's not an accident in a way because I >> it's not an accident in a way because I think um think um think um what AGI involves what AGI involves what AGI involves um is This is is another jargon phrase um is This is is another jargon phrase um is This is is another jargon phrase recursive self-improvement. Um, which recursive self-improvement. Um, which recursive self-improvement. Um, which would be, you know, an AI system that is would be, you know, an AI system that is would be, you know, an AI system that is training the next AI system that is training the next AI system that is training the next AI system that is improving itself recursively. So in a improving itself recursively. So in a improving itself recursively. So in a loop, there's no need for humans to sort

loop, there's no need for humans to sort loop, there's no need for humans to sort of step in and say, "Okay, I'm now going of step in and say, "Okay, I'm now going of step in and say, "Okay, I'm now going to take that model and build a better to take that model and build a better to take that model and build a better one." AI is not built anyway at the one." AI is not built anyway at the one." AI is not built anyway at the moment. You know, it's already sort of moment. You know, it's already sort of moment. You know, it's already sort of grown um on on grown um on on grown um on on >> Yeah. There's a little bit of recursive >> Yeah. There's a little bit of recursive >> Yeah. There's a little bit of recursive self-improvement happening right now, self-improvement happening right now, self-improvement happening right now, particularly in anthropic. particularly in anthropic. particularly in anthropic. >> Exactly. Well, more as we speak, you >> Exactly. Well, more as we speak, you >> Exactly. Well, more as we speak, you know. Um, and actually just in the last know. Um, and actually just in the last know. Um, and actually just in the last week, Anthropic have week, Anthropic have week, Anthropic have >> come out with a new statement saying >> come out with a new statement saying >> come out with a new statement saying that, you know, that they sort of rec that, you know, that they sort of rec that, you know, that they sort of rec full recursive self-improvement is is is full recursive self-improvement is is is full recursive self-improvement is is is pretty much here and that's why they are pretty much here and that's why they are pretty much here and that's why they are uh re you know raising this notion of a uh re you know raising this notion of a uh re you know raising this notion of a pause uh which which we raised as an pause uh which which we raised as an pause uh which which we raised as an organization back in 2023 and was organization back in 2023 and was organization back in 2023 and was laughed off by the companies but now you laughed off by the companies but now you laughed off by the companies but now you know most of them have said know most of them have said know most of them have said >> you started a petition. >> you started a petition. >> you started a petition. >> We did. We did. Um and and you know we >> We did. We did. Um and and you know we >> We did. We did. Um and and you know we were sort of making this case that if were sort of making this case that if were sort of making this case that if you have uh recursive self-improvement you have uh recursive self-improvement you have uh recursive self-improvement at a certain point you know humans will at a certain point you know humans will at a certain point you know humans will lose control and so we should uh there lose control and so we should uh there lose control and so we should uh there should be uh mechanisms for all of the should be uh mechanisms for all of the should be uh mechanisms for all of the companies to be able to come together companies to be able to come together companies to be able to come together and say we're all going to slow down on and say we're all going to slow down on and say we're all going to slow down on this particular um development of AGI this particular um development of AGI this particular um development of AGI until we can work out how to do it until we can work out how to do it until we can work out how to do it safely which you know could be could be safely which you know could be could be safely which you know could be could be a while. Um they've all said that a while. Um they've all said that a while. Um they've all said that different, you know, at different times different, you know, at different times different, you know, at different times they've hinted at the need to do that, they've hinted at the need to do that, they've hinted at the need to do that, but obviously they've said they can't do but obviously they've said they can't do but obviously they've said they can't do it unilaterally. They can't do it by it unilaterally. They can't do it by it unilaterally. They can't do it by themselves because, themselves because, themselves because, >> right, cuz if I quit, but you don't >> right, cuz if I quit, but you don't >> right, cuz if I quit, but you don't quit, then we're going to lose and quit, then we're going to lose and quit, then we're going to lose and >> Yeah. and your shareholders will just >> Yeah. and your shareholders will just >> Yeah. and your shareholders will just remove remove remove >> China will win. Well, the chi the China >> China will win. Well, the chi the China >> China will win. Well, the chi the China thing is is an interesting uh is it I thing is is an interesting uh is it I thing is is an interesting uh is it I would have a slightly different answer would have a slightly different answer would have a slightly different answer to it, but at least even on the

to it, but at least even on the to it, but at least even on the corporate race in within within the corporate race in within within the corporate race in within within the American companies, if you quit, if you American companies, if you quit, if you American companies, if you quit, if you said I was, you know, that you were said I was, you know, that you were said I was, you know, that you were going to pause, your shareholders would going to pause, your shareholders would going to pause, your shareholders would replace you with someone else who is is replace you with someone else who is is replace you with someone else who is is more gung-ho for the race. Um because if more gung-ho for the race. Um because if more gung-ho for the race. Um because if I haven't stopped and you know, our I haven't stopped and you know, our I haven't stopped and you know, our friend hasn't stopped. Whereas if all of friend hasn't stopped. Whereas if all of friend hasn't stopped. Whereas if all of the companies can come together and the companies can come together and the companies can come together and agree that it's in no one's interest, no agree that it's in no one's interest, no agree that it's in no one's interest, no human's interests for us to lose control human's interests for us to lose control human's interests for us to lose control um then you know then then maybe that um then you know then then maybe that um then you know then then maybe that it's actually feasible. Um the China it's actually feasible. Um the China it's actually feasible. Um the China thing would also depend you know is thing would also depend you know is thing would also depend you know is valid as well but a similar thing would valid as well but a similar thing would valid as well but a similar thing would apply that you would need some kind of apply that you would need some kind of apply that you would need some kind of international mechanism uh you know a international mechanism uh you know a international mechanism uh you know a binding agreement between the US and binding agreement between the US and binding agreement between the US and China and everyone else can join in if China and everyone else can join in if China and everyone else can join in if they want but it's not really material they want but it's not really material they want but it's not really material at this stage. um you know in order for at this stage. um you know in order for at this stage. um you know in order for them to trust each other that oh China them to trust each other that oh China them to trust each other that oh China is not going to try and do recursive is not going to try and do recursive is not going to try and do recursive self-improvement so therefore the US self-improvement so therefore the US self-improvement so therefore the US doesn't need to try and do it cuz that's doesn't need to try and do it cuz that's doesn't need to try and do it cuz that's a suicide a suicide a suicide >> what I hear you what I hear you saying >> what I hear you what I hear you saying >> what I hear you what I hear you saying is the genie is out of the bottle like is the genie is out of the bottle like is the genie is out of the bottle like we're almost at the point of no return we're almost at the point of no return we're almost at the point of no return where we've lost control of AI. Is that where we've lost control of AI. Is that where we've lost control of AI. Is that right?

right? right? >> I would say I would say almost is the >> I would say I would say almost is the >> I would say I would say almost is the key word there. I I don't think we've key word there. I I don't think we've key word there. I I don't think we've >> I don't think we've fully lost control >> I don't think we've fully lost control >> I don't think we've fully lost control yet. Um I think some people and you get yet. Um I think some people and you get yet. Um I think some people and you get this sometimes in religious dialogues this sometimes in religious dialogues this sometimes in religious dialogues people will say well you know we've people will say well you know we've people will say well you know we've already lost control of our technology already lost control of our technology already lost control of our technology you know 150 years ago you know these you know 150 years ago you know these you know 150 years ago you know these processes are sort of already there and processes are sort of already there and processes are sort of already there and obviously there's a sort of there's a obviously there's a sort of there's a obviously there's a sort of there's a Marxist critique of capitalism which Marxist critique of capitalism which Marxist critique of capitalism which says that the incentives are already run says that the incentives are already run says that the incentives are already run away but in away but in away but in >> in terms agree with that we are still >> in terms agree with that we are still >> in terms agree with that we are still humans are still meaningfully in control humans are still meaningfully in control humans are still meaningfully in control of our future we can choose not to go of our future we can choose not to go of our future we can choose not to go ahead with recursive self-improvement ahead with recursive self-improvement ahead with recursive self-improvement where you know these AI systems start where you know these AI systems start where you know these AI systems start racing you know each like even faster racing you know each like even faster racing you know each like even faster than before and start creating new than before and start creating new than before and start creating new systems that but we we don't stand a systems that but we we don't stand a systems that but we we don't stand a chance of of controlling. Um and that's chance of of controlling. Um and that's chance of of controlling. Um and that's where I was going to round off on the where I was going to round off on the where I was going to round off on the AGI to ASI. AGI to ASI. AGI to ASI. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's finish. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's finish. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's finish. >> Yeah. Because if you get to AGI and it >> Yeah. Because if you get to AGI and it >> Yeah. Because if you get to AGI and it is fully autonomous um and it is is fully autonomous um and it is is fully autonomous um and it is improving itself rapidly then [snorts] improving itself rapidly then [snorts] improving itself rapidly then [snorts] um even if AGI is is in some way at um even if AGI is is in some way at um even if AGI is is in some way at human expert level. Um ASI super human expert level. Um ASI super human expert level. Um ASI super intelligent that would be where you know intelligent that would be where you know intelligent that would be where you know it would be something that was leaves it would be something that was leaves it would be something that was leaves humanity hope hopelessly in the in the humanity hope hopelessly in the in the humanity hope hopelessly in the in the dust because um it's it's kind of when dust because um it's it's kind of when dust because um it's it's kind of when you get to AGI you sort of unlock a kind you get to AGI you sort of unlock a kind you get to AGI you sort of unlock a kind of uh you know spiral at that point that of uh you know spiral at that point that of uh you know spiral at that point that gets inevitably almost to to ASI. Um, so

gets inevitably almost to to ASI. Um, so gets inevitably almost to to ASI. Um, so that's why people use the terms that's why people use the terms that's why people use the terms interchangeably because the pursuit of interchangeably because the pursuit of interchangeably because the pursuit of one is sort of the pursuit of the other. one is sort of the pursuit of the other. one is sort of the pursuit of the other. >> Like right now we sort of understand >> Like right now we sort of understand >> Like right now we sort of understand what AI is doing, but the the Frontier what AI is doing, but the the Frontier what AI is doing, but the the Frontier Labs and the the people who are Labs and the the people who are Labs and the the people who are developing um AI at OpenAI and Anthropic developing um AI at OpenAI and Anthropic developing um AI at OpenAI and Anthropic and the other major labs, Google are and the other major labs, Google are and the other major labs, Google are saying, well, we don't fully understand saying, well, we don't fully understand saying, well, we don't fully understand what's going on inside of it. It's doing what's going on inside of it. It's doing what's going on inside of it. It's doing these mysterious things. We don't really these mysterious things. We don't really these mysterious things. We don't really know. Yeah. Um, but when we hit ASI, know. Yeah. Um, but when we hit ASI, know. Yeah. Um, but when we hit ASI, it'll be like an alien species kind of it'll be like an alien species kind of it'll be like an alien species kind of thing that we really not only don't thing that we really not only don't thing that we really not only don't understand what it's doing, but we've understand what it's doing, but we've understand what it's doing, but we've lost the ability to interpret what it's lost the ability to interpret what it's lost the ability to interpret what it's doing. Yeah. Is that correct? doing. Yeah. Is that correct? doing. Yeah. Is that correct? >> I think that's right. And also the >> I think that's right. And also the >> I think that's right. And also the ability to contain what it's doing. Uh, ability to contain what it's doing. Uh, ability to contain what it's doing. Uh, you know, current. you know, current. you know, current. >> Right. Right. It is like an alien >> Right. Right. It is like an alien >> Right. Right. It is like an alien invasion that we've created something invasion that we've created something invasion that we've created something now that is so superior to our now that is so superior to our now that is so superior to our intelligence, we have lost our ability intelligence, we have lost our ability intelligence, we have lost our ability to understand, communicate or control to understand, communicate or control to understand, communicate or control it. it. it. >> Yeah. and and and this control question >> Yeah. and and and this control question >> Yeah. and and and this control question for for us, you know, is a word I've for for us, you know, is a word I've for for us, you know, is a word I've been using a lot. Um is is key because been using a lot. Um is is key because been using a lot. Um is is key because the AI companies will talk about the AI companies will talk about the AI companies will talk about alignment. Um they will talk about um alignment. Um they will talk about um alignment. Um they will talk about um aligning their AI system to human aligning their AI system to human aligning their AI system to human values, however you might define human values, however you might define human values, however you might define human values. Um such that it can act values. Um such that it can act values. Um such that it can act according to our basic welfare and according to our basic welfare and according to our basic welfare and interests. What is implicit there, at interests. What is implicit there, at interests. What is implicit there, at least increasingly in the last few least increasingly in the last few least increasingly in the last few years, is that we will lose control. And years, is that we will lose control. And years, is that we will lose control. And so the best the best hope we have is oh so the best the best hope we have is oh so the best the best hope we have is oh the AI system will be more powerful than the AI system will be more powerful than the AI system will be more powerful than us but it will be acting in an it will us but it will be acting in an it will us but it will be acting in an it will be kind to us it'll be nice to us you

be kind to us it'll be nice to us you be kind to us it'll be nice to us you know know know >> it's a it's a it's a desperate but >> it's a it's a it's a desperate but >> it's a it's a it's a desperate but hopefully a benevolent camp a benevolent hopefully a benevolent camp a benevolent hopefully a benevolent camp a benevolent benev benev benevolent uh foreign benev benev benevolent uh foreign benev benev benevolent uh foreign overlord but we don't know overlord but we don't know overlord but we don't know >> and they don't know >> and they don't know >> and they don't know >> we don't know >> we don't know >> we don't know >> they don't know and and and also I would >> they don't know and and and also I would >> they don't know and and and also I would say yeah even if um you know they align say yeah even if um you know they align say yeah even if um you know they align it to Dario Ammeday's values his values it to Dario Ammeday's values his values it to Dario Ammeday's values his values are not the same as mine and I doubt are not the same as mine and I doubt are not the same as mine and I doubt they're the same most people um you know they're the same most people um you know they're the same most people um you know in the global south say or of people of in the global south say or of people of in the global south say or of people of of varying other faiths. So um of varying other faiths. So um of varying other faiths. So um >> and he's one of the more benevolent CEOs >> and he's one of the more benevolent CEOs >> and he's one of the more benevolent CEOs like he's really thinking about this like he's really thinking about this like he's really thinking about this gathering Catholic thinkers, Protestant gathering Catholic thinkers, Protestant gathering Catholic thinkers, Protestant thinkers, multiffaith leaders trying to thinkers, multiffaith leaders trying to thinkers, multiffaith leaders trying to say we need to do this ethically and say we need to do this ethically and say we need to do this ethically and others might be a little bit less others might be a little bit less others might be a little bit less concerned about the ethics. Um yeah I I concerned about the ethics. Um yeah I I concerned about the ethics. Um yeah I I I don't know what goes on in his in his I don't know what goes on in his in his I don't know what goes on in his in his brain or in his uh sort of conscious but brain or in his uh sort of conscious but brain or in his uh sort of conscious but uh conscience but uh I I yeah certainly uh conscience but uh I I yeah certainly uh conscience but uh I I yeah certainly anthropic makes a show of talking about anthropic makes a show of talking about anthropic makes a show of talking about ethics. Um but like I say even if you ethics. Um but like I say even if you ethics. Um but like I say even if you know even if you think know even if you think know even if you think >> um the anthropic could align somehow >> um the anthropic could align somehow >> um the anthropic could align somehow super intelligence to human values at super intelligence to human values at super intelligence to human values at large um that would not be a world in large um that would not be a world in large um that would not be a world in which humans are uh in control any which humans are uh in control any which humans are uh in control any longer. Um so they're sort of giving up longer. Um so they're sort of giving up longer. Um so they're sort of giving up on that idea that they would actually on that idea that they would actually on that idea that they would actually bother to contain a system. So bother to contain a system. So bother to contain a system. So we are still in a moment right now where we are still in a moment right now where we are still in a moment right now where we can decide that we will remain in we can decide that we will remain in we can decide that we will remain in control and we will contain the system.

control and we will contain the system. control and we will contain the system. In other words, we will decide not to In other words, we will decide not to In other words, we will decide not to build super intelligence. Um and that's build super intelligence. Um and that's build super intelligence. Um and that's that's the crucial sort of window that that's the crucial sort of window that that's the crucial sort of window that we find ourselves in right now. Um, and we find ourselves in right now. Um, and we find ourselves in right now. Um, and I think the the the alarm expressed by I think the the the alarm expressed by I think the the the alarm expressed by the AI companies themselves should not the AI companies themselves should not the AI companies themselves should not be taken as a license to to, you know, be taken as a license to to, you know, be taken as a license to to, you know, say, "Oh, you guys seem to be worried as say, "Oh, you guys seem to be worried as say, "Oh, you guys seem to be worried as well. That's great. We'll just let you well. That's great. We'll just let you well. That's great. We'll just let you continue." No, it should be, "Okay, continue." No, it should be, "Okay, continue." No, it should be, "Okay, we'll take we'll take you seriously on we'll take we'll take you seriously on we'll take we'll take you seriously on that and actually prevent you from that and actually prevent you from that and actually prevent you from building this, you know, terrifying building this, you know, terrifying building this, you know, terrifying thing that is in no one's interests." thing that is in no one's interests." thing that is in no one's interests." >> So, how do we get there? How do we stop >> So, how do we get there? How do we stop >> So, how do we get there? How do we stop if we want to stop building super if we want to stop building super if we want to stop building super intelligence? intelligence? intelligence? What's the path? What's the path? What's the path? Yeah, I mean I think um you know Yeah, I mean I think um you know Yeah, I mean I think um you know obviously a part of this is going to obviously a part of this is going to obviously a part of this is going to involve uh you know policym is going to involve uh you know policym is going to involve uh you know policym is going to involve regulation um because all the involve regulation um because all the involve regulation um because all the companies have acknowledged they can't companies have acknowledged they can't companies have acknowledged they can't do this by themselves. Um the US do this by themselves. Um the US do this by themselves. Um the US government has started to realize that government has started to realize that government has started to realize that um you know these systems are actually um you know these systems are actually um you know these systems are actually really powerful and actually you know really powerful and actually you know really powerful and actually you know unwieldy. Um you know the mythos moment unwieldy. Um you know the mythos moment unwieldy. Um you know the mythos moment uh was was this you know system that uh was was this you know system that uh was was this you know system that anthropic said well this is so powerful anthropic said well this is so powerful anthropic said well this is so powerful that we can't really release it. Um of that we can't really release it. Um of that we can't really release it. Um of course they have kind of released it in course they have kind of released it in course they have kind of released it in the last week.

the last week. the last week. >> Yeah. fable to sort of get get down to >> Yeah. fable to sort of get get down to >> Yeah. fable to sort of get get down to the bottom of what's exactly going on the bottom of what's exactly going on the bottom of what's exactly going on there. But um by the time this episode there. But um by the time this episode there. But um by the time this episode comes out, I'm sure people will have a comes out, I'm sure people will have a comes out, I'm sure people will have a better sense. Um but certainly it was it better sense. Um but certainly it was it better sense. Um but certainly it was it was the case that this spooked a lot of was the case that this spooked a lot of was the case that this spooked a lot of people in the US government and they people in the US government and they people in the US government and they thought actually thought actually thought actually um we can't be too ad hoc about this. We um we can't be too ad hoc about this. We um we can't be too ad hoc about this. We need to start thinking about need to start thinking about need to start thinking about pre-eployment testing and that's pre-eployment testing and that's pre-eployment testing and that's crucial. um [snorts] you know this idea crucial. um [snorts] you know this idea crucial. um [snorts] you know this idea that you should not release a system that you should not release a system that you should not release a system into the world of such power um and such into the world of such power um and such into the world of such power um and such general purpose uh capability and agency general purpose uh capability and agency general purpose uh capability and agency without uh proving that it's safe and without uh proving that it's safe and without uh proving that it's safe and proving that it's not going to have proving that it's not going to have proving that it's not going to have drastic impacts on everybody. Um part of drastic impacts on everybody. Um part of drastic impacts on everybody. Um part of that will also involve liability. Again, that will also involve liability. Again, that will also involve liability. Again, this comes down to the question of can this comes down to the question of can this comes down to the question of can an AI system itself be held liable? an AI system itself be held liable? an AI system itself be held liable? Well, most people would say no. You need Well, most people would say no. You need Well, most people would say no. You need to have the company behind it liable for to have the company behind it liable for to have the company behind it liable for the harms that it might do. And if we the harms that it might do. And if we the harms that it might do. And if we had that fully instantiated then um you had that fully instantiated then um you had that fully instantiated then um you know the air companies might be a little know the air companies might be a little know the air companies might be a little bit more careful about the kinds of bit more careful about the kinds of bit more careful about the kinds of things that they're releasing into the things that they're releasing into the things that they're releasing into the world. Um as as at the moment we just do world. Um as as at the moment we just do world. Um as as at the moment we just do not have anything like that regulation.

not have anything like that regulation. not have anything like that regulation. I think people are not always aware of I think people are not always aware of I think people are not always aware of the fact that AI as an industry is the fact that AI as an industry is the fact that AI as an industry is currently you know less regulated than currently you know less regulated than currently you know less regulated than practically any other industry. Um the practically any other industry. Um the practically any other industry. Um the line that my colleague at FLI likes to line that my colleague at FLI likes to line that my colleague at FLI likes to use is is you know sandwiches. you could use is is you know sandwiches. you could use is is you know sandwiches. you could open a sandwich shop and you would have open a sandwich shop and you would have open a sandwich shop and you would have more regulation, you know, hitting you more regulation, you know, hitting you more regulation, you know, hitting you um than than Sam Alman currently has at um than than Sam Alman currently has at um than than Sam Alman currently has at OpenAI and any of the AI companies have, OpenAI and any of the AI companies have, OpenAI and any of the AI companies have, even though their systems are clearly even though their systems are clearly even though their systems are clearly more impactful on far more people um you more impactful on far more people um you more impactful on far more people um you know than my sandwiches would ever be. know than my sandwiches would ever be. know than my sandwiches would ever be. >> That's true. The uh the local health >> That's true. The uh the local health >> That's true. The uh the local health unit can shut you down tomorrow if you unit can shut you down tomorrow if you unit can shut you down tomorrow if you open a sandwich shop. But if you're open a sandwich shop. But if you're open a sandwich shop. But if you're going to create the technology that going to create the technology that going to create the technology that could unemploy tens of millions of could unemploy tens of millions of could unemploy tens of millions of people uh potentially obliterate people uh potentially obliterate people uh potentially obliterate humanity depending on how you look at is humanity depending on how you look at is humanity depending on how you look at is this superpower super intelligence this superpower super intelligence this superpower super intelligence benevolent or malevolent and of course benevolent or malevolent and of course benevolent or malevolent and of course we've made it in our image. One of the we've made it in our image. One of the we've made it in our image. One of the things that I think is interesting is AI things that I think is interesting is AI things that I think is interesting is AI sometimes intentionally lies. It's like sometimes intentionally lies. It's like sometimes intentionally lies. It's like it seems to be you know you're a it seems to be you know you're a it seems to be you know you're a Christian, I'm a Christian. It seems to Christian, I'm a Christian. It seems to Christian, I'm a Christian. It seems to be subject to the laws of Genesis 3, be subject to the laws of Genesis 3, be subject to the laws of Genesis 3, >> like like this is not >> like like this is not >> like like this is not >> utopia. But I want to get back to, you >> utopia. But I want to get back to, you >> utopia. But I want to get back to, you know, if if you're a pastor listening to know, if if you're a pastor listening to know, if if you're a pastor listening to this this this >> or a church leader or somebody leading a >> or a church leader or somebody leading a >> or a church leader or somebody leading a company, company, company, >> it's like there's a couple of of real >> it's like there's a couple of of real >> it's like there's a couple of of real things and if we get to touch on mental things and if we get to touch on mental things and if we get to touch on mental health, this is why it's a series. I've health, this is why it's a series. I've health, this is why it's a series. I've got some other leaders who can talk got some other leaders who can talk got some other leaders who can talk about mental health, but let's just talk about mental health, but let's just talk about mental health, but let's just talk about jobs right now.

about jobs right now. about jobs right now. Let's fast forward. if if jobs are going Let's fast forward. if if jobs are going Let's fast forward. if if jobs are going to happen, and this is sort of the the to happen, and this is sort of the the to happen, and this is sort of the the scenario that I'm debating with CEOs as scenario that I'm debating with CEOs as scenario that I'm debating with CEOs as well, and they're like, "Oh, well, I'll well, and they're like, "Oh, well, I'll well, and they're like, "Oh, well, I'll figure this out. It might be 10 bad figure this out. It might be 10 bad figure this out. It might be 10 bad years or five bad years." Yeah. But if years or five bad years." Yeah. But if years or five bad years." Yeah. But if you're sitting there and you were you're sitting there and you were you're sitting there and you were formerly employed as a middle manager or formerly employed as a middle manager or formerly employed as a middle manager or an accountant or, an accountant or, an accountant or, >> you know, some of these white collar >> you know, some of these white collar >> you know, some of these white collar jobs that are now for the first time in jobs that are now for the first time in jobs that are now for the first time in history at risk history at risk history at risk >> and you're not just unemployed, you're >> and you're not just unemployed, you're >> and you're not just unemployed, you're unemployable. Like, how does that play unemployable. Like, how does that play unemployable. Like, how does that play out, out, out, >> let's say, in the next three to five >> let's say, in the next three to five >> let's say, in the next three to five years in your view, Will? like what do years in your view, Will? like what do years in your view, Will? like what do you see as potential scenarios? you see as potential scenarios? you see as potential scenarios? >> You mean at the local sort of >> You mean at the local sort of >> You mean at the local sort of >> at the local level like I'm just I'm >> at the local level like I'm just I'm >> at the local level like I'm just I'm going to work I'm not thinking globally. going to work I'm not thinking globally. going to work I'm not thinking globally. I'm not worried about ASI, but my I'm not worried about ASI, but my I'm not worried about ASI, but my company company company >> I work for a company that has a thousand >> I work for a company that has a thousand >> I work for a company that has a thousand employees or 100 employees and they're employees or 100 employees and they're employees or 100 employees and they're saying everybody's got to learn AI or saying everybody's got to learn AI or saying everybody's got to learn AI or you're going to lose your job. you're going to lose your job. you're going to lose your job. >> And then like are am I going to lose my >> And then like are am I going to lose my >> And then like are am I going to lose my job? Like what what's going to happen job? Like what what's going to happen job? Like what what's going to happen the next 3 to 5 years in the the next 3 to 5 years in the the next 3 to 5 years in the >> typical work a day world of someone in >> typical work a day world of someone in >> typical work a day world of someone in England or America or Canada or the England or America or Canada or the England or America or Canada or the Western world?

Western world? Western world? >> Uh yeah, I mean I it's it's very hard to >> Uh yeah, I mean I it's it's very hard to >> Uh yeah, I mean I it's it's very hard to to say. I I think to say. I I think to say. I I think I am wary of people who try and um I am wary of people who try and um I am wary of people who try and um insist that the only way that one insist that the only way that one insist that the only way that one survives in this world is to use AI as survives in this world is to use AI as survives in this world is to use AI as much as possible. Um okay, much as possible. Um okay, much as possible. Um okay, >> I'm wary of that because you there is >> I'm wary of that because you there is >> I'm wary of that because you there is already good data to to suggest that already good data to to suggest that already good data to to suggest that that the use of AI um tools and um you that the use of AI um tools and um you that the use of AI um tools and um you know you getting AI systems to do all know you getting AI systems to do all know you getting AI systems to do all your writing for you um you know is your writing for you um you know is your writing for you um you know is dumbing us down already. Um, and this dumbing us down already. Um, and this dumbing us down already. Um, and this isn't I don't think it's just young isn't I don't think it's just young isn't I don't think it's just young people, although young people should be people, although young people should be people, although young people should be especially wary of, you know, u using AI especially wary of, you know, u using AI especially wary of, you know, u using AI systems at school um and never even systems at school um and never even systems at school um and never even learning how to do anything uh you know learning how to do anything uh you know learning how to do anything uh you know because that's especially especially because that's especially especially because that's especially especially sort of damaging. But I think even for sort of damaging. But I think even for sort of damaging. But I think even for for people fairly established in their for people fairly established in their for people fairly established in their careers, if they're already finding that careers, if they're already finding that careers, if they're already finding that they are unable to do tasks that a year they are unable to do tasks that a year they are unable to do tasks that a year ago they would have found quite easy ago they would have found quite easy ago they would have found quite easy because in the interim year they've sort because in the interim year they've sort because in the interim year they've sort of handed [clears throat] those tasks on of handed [clears throat] those tasks on of handed [clears throat] those tasks on to AI systems. Um, you might ask the to AI systems. Um, you might ask the to AI systems. Um, you might ask the question, what are you still able to do?

question, what are you still able to do? question, what are you still able to do? And, um, you know, how do you how do you And, um, you know, how do you how do you And, um, you know, how do you how do you safeguard that and and and sort of safeguard that and and and sort of safeguard that and and and sort of cultivate that and actually improve your cultivate that and actually improve your cultivate that and actually improve your skills um and and and your mental acumen skills um and and and your mental acumen skills um and and and your mental acumen and and sort of, you know, remain sharp and and sort of, you know, remain sharp and and sort of, you know, remain sharp um rather than kind of allowing yourself um rather than kind of allowing yourself um rather than kind of allowing yourself to be gradually made, you know, made to be gradually made, you know, made to be gradually made, you know, made unemployable in a way. That's the sad unemployable in a way. That's the sad unemployable in a way. That's the sad thing as well is that, you know, AI thing as well is that, you know, AI thing as well is that, you know, AI systems getting smarter. We're getting systems getting smarter. We're getting systems getting smarter. We're getting dumber. And so, actually, the point at dumber. And so, actually, the point at dumber. And so, actually, the point at which AI can replace you which AI can replace you which AI can replace you might not even need to be as high up as might not even need to be as high up as might not even need to be as high up as it used to be because we've all become it used to be because we've all become it used to be because we've all become more incapable of of kind of um basic more incapable of of kind of um basic more incapable of of kind of um basic cognitive tasks. Um, and so I mean, you cognitive tasks. Um, and so I mean, you cognitive tasks. Um, and so I mean, you know, I say that I'm I'm sitting in a know, I say that I'm I'm sitting in a know, I say that I'm I'm sitting in a privileged position where I'm privileged position where I'm privileged position where I'm >> with you. >> with you. >> with you. >> Yeah. I'm thinking about what um uh >> Yeah. I'm thinking about what um uh >> Yeah. I'm thinking about what um uh Henry David Thorough said uh 150 years Henry David Thorough said uh 150 years Henry David Thorough said uh 150 years ago. He used a term brain rot and he ago. He used a term brain rot and he ago. He used a term brain rot and he already saw it in America in the middle already saw it in America in the middle already saw it in America in the middle of the 19th century. of the 19th century. of the 19th century. >> And I see that with preachers. We see >> And I see that with preachers. We see >> And I see that with preachers. We see that we've got the first class that that we've got the first class that that we've got the first class that graduated this spring that had full graduated this spring that had full graduated this spring that had full access to AI for all three or four years access to AI for all three or four years access to AI for all three or four years of their university education. Jonathan of their university education. Jonathan of their university education. Jonathan height has released data to show that IQ height has released data to show that IQ height has released data to show that IQ and like educational scores are dropping and like educational scores are dropping and like educational scores are dropping now over what the benchmark was 10 years now over what the benchmark was 10 years now over what the benchmark was 10 years ago for the first time in history. It's ago for the first time in history. It's ago for the first time in history. It's just decades of improvement, just decades of improvement, just decades of improvement, improvement, improvement. Now it's like improvement, improvement. Now it's like improvement, improvement. Now it's like yeah, we are actually verifiably dumber yeah, we are actually verifiably dumber yeah, we are actually verifiably dumber because we've outsourced our brain.

because we've outsourced our brain. because we've outsourced our brain. >> Yeah. So on the one hand, if you don't >> Yeah. So on the one hand, if you don't >> Yeah. So on the one hand, if you don't use AI, there is that maxim that your use AI, there is that maxim that your use AI, there is that maxim that your job isn't going to be taken by AI, but job isn't going to be taken by AI, but job isn't going to be taken by AI, but people who know how to use AI, who know people who know how to use AI, who know people who know how to use AI, who know how to use AI. And you you kind of push how to use AI. And you you kind of push how to use AI. And you you kind of push back on that. Do you disagree with that? back on that. Do you disagree with that? back on that. Do you disagree with that? >> Well, I pushed back on it earlier as um >> Well, I pushed back on it earlier as um >> Well, I pushed back on it earlier as um you know, as anything uh you know, like you know, as anything uh you know, like you know, as anything uh you know, like an answer to the challenge of of job an answer to the challenge of of job an answer to the challenge of of job loss at a societal level. I I just don't loss at a societal level. I I just don't loss at a societal level. I I just don't think it's I don't think it's the case think it's I don't think it's the case think it's I don't think it's the case that there's all these jobs waiting to that there's all these jobs waiting to that there's all these jobs waiting to be taken up by people who are using AI. be taken up by people who are using AI. be taken up by people who are using AI. Um and the only ones who are going to Um and the only ones who are going to Um and the only ones who are going to lose out are the ones who aren't using lose out are the ones who aren't using lose out are the ones who aren't using AI. Um I think you know most people are AI. Um I think you know most people are AI. Um I think you know most people are going to lose their jobs if we continue going to lose their jobs if we continue going to lose their jobs if we continue as we're going. Um because the because as we're going. Um because the because as we're going. Um because the because in the end the AI won't need someone to in the end the AI won't need someone to in the end the AI won't need someone to use it. It will be um use it. It will be um use it. It will be um >> using itself. >> using itself. >> using itself. >> It'll be using itself. you know, may >> It'll be using itself. you know, may >> It'll be using itself. you know, may maybe maybe you'll still preserve some maybe maybe you'll still preserve some maybe maybe you'll still preserve some kind of CEO, but even even like I said, kind of CEO, but even even like I said, kind of CEO, but even even like I said, I mean, AI is doing management tasks and I mean, AI is doing management tasks and I mean, AI is doing management tasks and the idea ultimately is that AI will be the idea ultimately is that AI will be the idea ultimately is that AI will be an even better manager. Um, you know, an even better manager. Um, you know, an even better manager. Um, you know, even even the AI CEOs are sort of open even even the AI CEOs are sort of open even even the AI CEOs are sort of open to that that possibility that, you know, to that that possibility that, you know, to that that possibility that, you know, actually AI could do their job better actually AI could do their job better actually AI could do their job better than them because it would be infinitely than them because it would be infinitely than them because it would be infinitely more knowing and, you know, capacious in more knowing and, you know, capacious in more knowing and, you know, capacious in its in its um and I think they would its in its um and I think they would its in its um and I think they would argue in its wisdom too. um as regards argue in its wisdom too. um as regards argue in its wisdom too. um as regards like personal you know choices that like personal you know choices that like personal you know choices that people are making. I think it could be people are making. I think it could be people are making. I think it could be the case in certain roles that people um the case in certain roles that people um the case in certain roles that people um you know are going to be forced to to you know are going to be forced to to you know are going to be forced to to use AI or otherwise face um you know use AI or otherwise face um you know use AI or otherwise face um you know being replaced by someone who would. I

being replaced by someone who would. I being replaced by someone who would. I think that that could be the case in in think that that could be the case in in think that that could be the case in in in certain isolated cases. Um this this in certain isolated cases. Um this this in certain isolated cases. Um this this is why I'm sort of hesitant to give is why I'm sort of hesitant to give is why I'm sort of hesitant to give particular advice to a local situation particular advice to a local situation particular advice to a local situation I'm not familiar with. I would say I'm not familiar with. I would say I'm not familiar with. I would say another principle I'm I'm kind of another principle I'm I'm kind of another principle I'm I'm kind of bearing in in my own thinking here is um bearing in in my own thinking here is um bearing in in my own thinking here is um something that's talked about in uh something that's talked about in uh something that's talked about in uh another Catholic uh uh text which is um another Catholic uh uh text which is um another Catholic uh uh text which is um reclaiming human agency which is written reclaiming human agency which is written reclaiming human agency which is written by one of the Vatican departments um a by one of the Vatican departments um a by one of the Vatican departments um a group of American researchers actually group of American researchers actually group of American researchers actually uh in the last year or so and they talk uh in the last year or so and they talk uh in the last year or so and they talk about desklling you know some some about desklling you know some some about desklling you know some some aspect of deskklling is is inevitable uh aspect of deskklling is is inevitable uh aspect of deskklling is is inevitable uh that's happened across human history that's happened across human history that's happened across human history that that in itself is not a problem that that in itself is not a problem that that in itself is not a problem that we we lose the ability ility to do that we we lose the ability ility to do that we we lose the ability ility to do certain tasks, you know, may maybe not certain tasks, you know, may maybe not certain tasks, you know, may maybe not all tasks are um you know, we have to all tasks are um you know, we have to all tasks are um you know, we have to prioritize it in a certain level. prioritize it in a certain level. prioritize it in a certain level. >> Sort of like the last samurai sword >> Sort of like the last samurai sword >> Sort of like the last samurai sword maker kind of thing, right? A lot of maker kind of thing, right? A lot of maker kind of thing, right? A lot of them. them. them. >> Yeah. Although there's a lot of samurai >> Yeah. Although there's a lot of samurai >> Yeah. Although there's a lot of samurai swords in in the streets of London um as swords in in the streets of London um as swords in in the streets of London um as I'm learning. But uh uh no, devirtuing I'm learning. But uh uh no, devirtuing I'm learning. But uh uh no, devirtuing would be the concept that we should be a would be the concept that we should be a would be the concept that we should be a little bit more worried about if there little bit more worried about if there little bit more worried about if there are tasks that we um you know do not are tasks that we um you know do not are tasks that we um you know do not because they are economically valuable because they are economically valuable because they are economically valuable necessarily. um or not because an AI necessarily. um or not because an AI necessarily. um or not because an AI system can't do them, but because they system can't do them, but because they system can't do them, but because they actually cultivate virtue. They they actually cultivate virtue. They they actually cultivate virtue. They they make us better people by doing those make us better people by doing those make us better people by doing those tasks. Um and so that would be something tasks. Um and so that would be something tasks. Um and so that would be something I would really think is is important for I would really think is is important for I would really think is is important for Christians um to bear in mind. And Christians um to bear in mind. And Christians um to bear in mind. And these, [snorts] these, [snorts] these, [snorts] you know, could include caring roles.

you know, could include caring roles. you know, could include caring roles. They could include interpersonal things They could include interpersonal things They could include interpersonal things but also could include some of the but also could include some of the but also could include some of the cognitive sort of intellectual side of cognitive sort of intellectual side of cognitive sort of intellectual side of things because they help to cultivate an things because they help to cultivate an things because they help to cultivate an interior life and help you to read interior life and help you to read interior life and help you to read scripture and understand you know scripture and understand you know scripture and understand you know understand try and understand what God understand try and understand what God understand try and understand what God is communicating you to through is communicating you to through is communicating you to through scripture and maybe even help you to scripture and maybe even help you to scripture and maybe even help you to pray uh you know in certain cases. And pray uh you know in certain cases. And pray uh you know in certain cases. And so I I think we need to be very um you so I I think we need to be very um you so I I think we need to be very um you know careful about the tasks that we're know careful about the tasks that we're know careful about the tasks that we're giving up um not just in a in an giving up um not just in a in an giving up um not just in a in an economic uh sort of um context but also economic uh sort of um context but also economic uh sort of um context but also in a in one of virtue. in a in one of virtue. in a in one of virtue. >> Well on brain rotten cognitive decline >> Well on brain rotten cognitive decline >> Well on brain rotten cognitive decline one of the things that I made myself do one of the things that I made myself do one of the things that I made myself do even though it's a book about AI is even though it's a book about AI is even though it's a book about AI is write the first two drafts largely write the first two drafts largely write the first two drafts largely unassisted. It's like do the hard work unassisted. It's like do the hard work unassisted. It's like do the hard work stare at the blank page. Stare at the stare at the blank page. Stare at the stare at the blank page. Stare at the blank screen. come up with the words, blank screen. come up with the words, blank screen. come up with the words, come up with the phrases because I come up with the phrases because I come up with the phrases because I wanted to own this content. And you wanted to own this content. And you wanted to own this content. And you know, my previous books, I've written know, my previous books, I've written know, my previous books, I've written five other books. AI really wasn't an five other books. AI really wasn't an five other books. AI really wasn't an option. The last one came out in 20121.

option. The last one came out in 20121. option. The last one came out in 20121. It just it just maybe it was out there, It just it just maybe it was out there, It just it just maybe it was out there, but like it wasn't ready. I could have but like it wasn't ready. I could have but like it wasn't ready. I could have easily fed a lot of it into there. What easily fed a lot of it into there. What easily fed a lot of it into there. What is the what kind of cognitive load do is the what kind of cognitive load do is the what kind of cognitive load do you think we should still force you think we should still force you think we should still force ourselves to carry so that we don't have ourselves to carry so that we don't have ourselves to carry so that we don't have more mental decline? more mental decline? more mental decline? And you could argue sort of Jonathan And you could argue sort of Jonathan And you could argue sort of Jonathan Height stats that he's he's profiled. Height stats that he's he's profiled. Height stats that he's he's profiled. They're as much a a product of of social They're as much a a product of of social They're as much a a product of of social media for 20 years and short form video media for 20 years and short form video media for 20 years and short form video as they are of AI, but the two are as they are of AI, but the two are as they are of AI, but the two are probably intersecting and the the lines probably intersecting and the the lines probably intersecting and the the lines will pass at some point soon. But what will pass at some point soon. But what will pass at some point soon. But what what would you say we need to do to what would you say we need to do to what would you say we need to do to guard against cognitive decline, further guard against cognitive decline, further guard against cognitive decline, further cognitive decline? cognitive decline? cognitive decline? >> Yeah. No, I I definitely think it's >> Yeah. No, I I definitely think it's >> Yeah. No, I I definitely think it's worth worth saying that um the things worth worth saying that um the things worth worth saying that um the things that Jonathan height is researching. Um that Jonathan height is researching. Um that Jonathan height is researching. Um yeah, this is a lot of this has been yeah, this is a lot of this has been yeah, this is a lot of this has been primed by social media. That said, a lot primed by social media. That said, a lot primed by social media. That said, a lot of social media that the sort of harms of social media that the sort of harms of social media that the sort of harms in the last 5 to 10 15 years have been in the last 5 to 10 15 years have been in the last 5 to 10 15 years have been because of the algorithmic um setup of because of the algorithmic um setup of because of the algorithmic um setup of of social media that you know um of social media that you know um of social media that you know um automatically automat Exactly. It was automatically automat Exactly. It was automatically automat Exactly. It was very sort of basic AI but it was you very sort of basic AI but it was you very sort of basic AI but it was you know giving you recommendations um based know giving you recommendations um based know giving you recommendations um based on the on consumption of the data that on the on consumption of the data that on the on consumption of the data that you've previously put in that sort of you've previously put in that sort of you've previously put in that sort of thing. So that's certainly worth worth thing. So that's certainly worth worth thing. So that's certainly worth worth mentioning. Um but I think I I I do like mentioning. Um but I think I I I do like mentioning. Um but I think I I I do like to think at least that some of the to think at least that some of the to think at least that some of the observations from height and and and his observations from height and and and his observations from height and and and his group and others um of the harms of group and others um of the harms of group and others um of the harms of social media belatedly realized um you social media belatedly realized um you social media belatedly realized um you know but but the response to those

know but but the response to those know but but the response to those may help to insulate us against some of may help to insulate us against some of may help to insulate us against some of the harms of AI. I think if you think the harms of AI. I think if you think the harms of AI. I think if you think about you know um [clears throat] young about you know um [clears throat] young about you know um [clears throat] young people using you know their phones less people using you know their phones less people using you know their phones less um ideally because you know their um ideally because you know their um ideally because you know their parents have realized you know of 20 parents have realized you know of 20 parents have realized you know of 20 years that it's actually really damaging years that it's actually really damaging years that it's actually really damaging to give teenagers access to social media to give teenagers access to social media to give teenagers access to social media you know in in the evening um or like you know in in the evening um or like you know in in the evening um or like just the whole you know all the time just the whole you know all the time just the whole you know all the time 24/7 um that that will insulate those 24/7 um that that will insulate those 24/7 um that that will insulate those same children against being prayed on by same children against being prayed on by same children against being prayed on by AI chat bots you know there are cases AI chat bots you know there are cases AI chat bots you know there are cases where the lessons from the from the where the lessons from the from the where the lessons from the from the first encounter help you with the with first encounter help you with the with first encounter help you with the with the second Um but uh no I I think I do the second Um but uh no I I think I do the second Um but uh no I I think I do think when it comes to writing and and think when it comes to writing and and think when it comes to writing and and reading reading reading um um um I I would I would recommend a lot of I I would I would recommend a lot of I I would I would recommend a lot of caution around um getting used to caution around um getting used to caution around um getting used to letting AI write write things for you. letting AI write write things for you. letting AI write write things for you. Again that's not an institutional Again that's not an institutional Again that's not an institutional position. Some of my colleagues are a position. Some of my colleagues are a position. Some of my colleagues are a bit more gung-ho on using AI tools. you bit more gung-ho on using AI tools. you bit more gung-ho on using AI tools. you know, as a FLI is is is wanting to warn know, as a FLI is is is wanting to warn know, as a FLI is is is wanting to warn about, you know, the second conversation about, you know, the second conversation about, you know, the second conversation that you you mentioned at the beginning that you you mentioned at the beginning that you you mentioned at the beginning about, you know, sort of broader the, about, you know, sort of broader the, about, you know, sort of broader the, you know, safety and and loss of control you know, safety and and loss of control you know, safety and and loss of control risks um that don't come from narrow use risks um that don't come from narrow use risks um that don't come from narrow use of AI. But I I do think as as Christians of AI. But I I do think as as Christians of AI. But I I do think as as Christians and as people thinking about the and as people thinking about the and as people thinking about the development of humans in the fullest development of humans in the fullest development of humans in the fullest sense of that that word um you know, we sense of that that word um you know, we sense of that that word um you know, we we we should be wary of um of losing the we we should be wary of um of losing the we we should be wary of um of losing the ability to write. I mean, I'm someone ability to write. I mean, I'm someone ability to write. I mean, I'm someone who, you know, I I I I who, you know, I I I I who, you know, I I I I did my undergraduate degree in English did my undergraduate degree in English did my undergraduate degree in English and so I'm someone who's a bit more and so I'm someone who's a bit more and so I'm someone who's a bit more nerdy about writing and and the the nerdy about writing and and the the nerdy about writing and and the the craft of writing, you know, that than craft of writing, you know, that than craft of writing, you know, that than maybe some people. Um I think it would

maybe some people. Um I think it would maybe some people. Um I think it would be a tragedy if we be a tragedy if we be a tragedy if we got to the point where no one has an got to the point where no one has an got to the point where no one has an individual voice in their writing and individual voice in their writing and individual voice in their writing and and and also writing as a way of and and also writing as a way of and and also writing as a way of thinking as you know um I'm sure as you thinking as you know um I'm sure as you thinking as you know um I'm sure as you found with the you know first draft or found with the you know first draft or found with the you know first draft or two of your book that being forced or two of your book that being forced or two of your book that being forced or forcing yourself to be to to write those forcing yourself to be to to write those forcing yourself to be to to write those things out helped you to think of the things out helped you to think of the things out helped you to think of the argumentation and help you to actually argumentation and help you to actually argumentation and help you to actually process what you were what you were process what you were what you were process what you were what you were writing about rather than just sort of writing about rather than just sort of writing about rather than just sort of saying well I'm going to you know let AI saying well I'm going to you know let AI saying well I'm going to you know let AI do the hard part and then I'll sort of do the hard part and then I'll sort of do the hard part and then I'll sort of come in and add my little personal it on come in and add my little personal it on come in and add my little personal it on the end. Um, a writing helps you to the end. Um, a writing helps you to the end. Um, a writing helps you to self-realize in that sense. And so self-realize in that sense. And so self-realize in that sense. And so guarding that very very uh jealously I guarding that very very uh jealously I guarding that very very uh jealously I think should be something that that most think should be something that that most think should be something that that most people who care about the interior life people who care about the interior life people who care about the interior life should do. should do. should do. >> Well, writing for me is thinking >> Well, writing for me is thinking >> Well, writing for me is thinking >> and it's processing. And there's not >> and it's processing. And there's not >> and it's processing. And there's not just the 65,000 words that ended up on just the 65,000 words that ended up on just the 65,000 words that ended up on the final page. There's everything I the final page. There's everything I the final page. There's everything I cut. There's everything I read that cut. There's everything I read that cut. There's everything I read that didn't make it into the book. And so didn't make it into the book. And so didn't make it into the book. And so what I've got now is double triple that what I've got now is double triple that what I've got now is double triple that as a knowledge base plus hundreds of as a knowledge base plus hundreds of as a knowledge base plus hundreds of hours of reading and listening and hours of reading and listening and hours of reading and listening and podcasting all that stuff. So you know I podcasting all that stuff. So you know I podcasting all that stuff. So you know I can talk with a coder about AI. But if I can talk with a coder about AI. But if I can talk with a coder about AI. But if I just had a really good prompt that just had a really good prompt that just had a really good prompt that produced all that I've missed out on all produced all that I've missed out on all produced all that I've missed out on all the learning and I've got to learn about the learning and I've got to learn about the learning and I've got to learn about those things at a certain age. And so, those things at a certain age. And so, those things at a certain age. And so, you know, the other thing, and I'm going you know, the other thing, and I'm going you know, the other thing, and I'm going to give you sort of some lightning round to give you sort of some lightning round to give you sort of some lightning round questions as we wrap up, Will, because questions as we wrap up, Will, because questions as we wrap up, Will, because there's so much we didn't touch on, but there's so much we didn't touch on, but there's so much we didn't touch on, but this has been such a great conversation.

this has been such a great conversation. this has been such a great conversation. Like, Like, Like, >> you know, I worry about >> you know, I worry about >> you know, I worry about I want you to give advice. So, you're I want you to give advice. So, you're I want you to give advice. So, you're 22. You just graduated from college. You 22. You just graduated from college. You 22. You just graduated from college. You look young. I don't know how young you look young. I don't know how young you look young. I don't know how young you are, but you're definitely a lot younger are, but you're definitely a lot younger are, but you're definitely a lot younger than I am. and you you your life is than I am. and you you your life is than I am. and you you your life is going to be a lot more determined by going to be a lot more determined by going to be a lot more determined by um um um by AI than than mine will be. I've got by AI than than mine will be. I've got by AI than than mine will be. I've got 20 30 years left. You have many more 20 30 years left. You have many more 20 30 years left. You have many more than that. But if you go back to your than that. But if you go back to your than that. But if you go back to your 22-year-old self, what would you be 22-year-old self, what would you be 22-year-old self, what would you be doing right now to make sure that a you doing right now to make sure that a you doing right now to make sure that a you have some kind of a job in the future have some kind of a job in the future have some kind of a job in the future that you don't go through cognitive that you don't go through cognitive that you don't go through cognitive decline decline decline >> and and that you try to make the world a >> and and that you try to make the world a >> and and that you try to make the world a better place? Like what's your advice better place? Like what's your advice better place? Like what's your advice for 22-year-old Will? for 22-year-old Will? for 22-year-old Will? Um, yeah. Well, like I mentioned Um, yeah. Well, like I mentioned Um, yeah. Well, like I mentioned earlier, I'm I am speaking, you know, as earlier, I'm I am speaking, you know, as earlier, I'm I am speaking, you know, as someone who got very lucky with with someone who got very lucky with with someone who got very lucky with with finding, you know, the the job I'm I'm finding, you know, the the job I'm I'm finding, you know, the the job I'm I'm currently doing in terms of being part currently doing in terms of being part currently doing in terms of being part of the the fight to try and make sure of the the fight to try and make sure of the the fight to try and make sure that this this transformative change that this this transformative change that this this transformative change goes well. Um, you know, and and FI is goes well. Um, you know, and and FI is goes well. Um, you know, and and FI is hiring. There's lots of jobs in in in hiring. There's lots of jobs in in in hiring. There's lots of jobs in in in the sort of AI policy world, but not the sort of AI policy world, but not the sort of AI policy world, but not everyone can do that. Um, and you know, everyone can do that. Um, and you know, everyone can do that. Um, and you know, I don't think everyone should do that.

I don't think everyone should do that. I don't think everyone should do that. Um, so it's a challenge. uh you know I Um, so it's a challenge. uh you know I Um, so it's a challenge. uh you know I there are lots of jobs that people are there are lots of jobs that people are there are lots of jobs that people are going to be advised by their parents to going to be advised by their parents to going to be advised by their parents to do that you know maybe are not such do that you know maybe are not such do that you know maybe are not such great options if if we're being great options if if we're being great options if if we're being realistic about how much things are realistic about how much things are realistic about how much things are going to change. Um but I do think there going to change. Um but I do think there going to change. Um but I do think there is you know there is this broader is you know there is this broader is you know there is this broader societal societal societal uh challenge that we face of of trying uh challenge that we face of of trying uh challenge that we face of of trying to instantiate the right policies to try to instantiate the right policies to try to instantiate the right policies to try and help our communities respond to and help our communities respond to and help our communities respond to these these changes. um you know and and these these changes. um you know and and these these changes. um you know and and and there there there is a need for a and there there there is a need for a and there there there is a need for a lot of people to engage in that. Um and lot of people to engage in that. Um and lot of people to engage in that. Um and even if you just think on the on the even if you just think on the on the even if you just think on the on the religious side um if you think about you religious side um if you think about you religious side um if you think about you know the the number of uh sort of know the the number of uh sort of know the the number of uh sort of pastors pastors pastors you know in your local area who will not you know in your local area who will not you know in your local area who will not have been thinking about this even have been thinking about this even have been thinking about this even though they should. Um and though they should. Um and though they should. Um and >> are pastors going to be needed in five >> are pastors going to be needed in five >> are pastors going to be needed in five years? years? years? >> Yes. I mean again I you know like at the >> Yes. I mean again I you know like at the >> Yes. I mean again I you know like at the most basic level uh you know those of us most basic level uh you know those of us most basic level uh you know those of us who have a sacramental theology would who have a sacramental theology would who have a sacramental theology would would say that there's you know priests would say that there's you know priests would say that there's you know priests are never going to be replaced by AI are never going to be replaced by AI are never going to be replaced by AI because um you know only humans can do because um you know only humans can do because um you know only humans can do those things like literally that only those things like literally that only those things like literally that only humans can do those things. Um but even humans can do those things. Um but even humans can do those things. Um but even but even I think you know for those of a but even I think you know for those of a but even I think you know for those of a much more non-denominational evangelical much more non-denominational evangelical much more non-denominational evangelical side I think um there's the pastoral side I think um there's the pastoral side I think um there's the pastoral side uh you know the pastoral nature of side uh you know the pastoral nature of side uh you know the pastoral nature of the pastor role um is something where um the pastor role um is something where um the pastor role um is something where um I think most people do not want an AI to I think most people do not want an AI to I think most people do not want an AI to be the one praying for them. Um

be the one praying for them. Um be the one praying for them. Um >> I don't want an AI on customer service >> I don't want an AI on customer service >> I don't want an AI on customer service when I call a 1-800 number go to get my when I call a 1-800 number go to get my when I call a 1-800 number go to get my internet reconnected. internet reconnected. internet reconnected. >> I don't want to talk to a chatbot. I >> I don't want to talk to a chatbot. I >> I don't want to talk to a chatbot. I want to talk to a real person. want to talk to a real person. want to talk to a real person. >> Yeah. Uh I mean I think customer service >> Yeah. Uh I mean I think customer service >> Yeah. Uh I mean I think customer service is difficult because for so long many of is difficult because for so long many of is difficult because for so long many of us had um you know bad experiences with us had um you know bad experiences with us had um you know bad experiences with underpaid uh you know call center underpaid uh you know call center underpaid uh you know call center workers anyway. So that was already a workers anyway. So that was already a workers anyway. So that was already a sort of dehumanized process even when it sort of dehumanized process even when it sort of dehumanized process even when it was still humans. Um but uh no but was still humans. Um but uh no but was still humans. Um but uh no but definitely like like yeah in terms of definitely like like yeah in terms of definitely like like yeah in terms of when you actually have a problem and when you actually have a problem and when you actually have a problem and especially if you have a spiritual especially if you have a spiritual especially if you have a spiritual pastoral personal family related problem pastoral personal family related problem pastoral personal family related problem um you know that you want to take to um you know that you want to take to um you know that you want to take to your pastor or priest um you know the your pastor or priest um you know the your pastor or priest um you know the idea that they are going to be deferring idea that they are going to be deferring idea that they are going to be deferring that job to AI systems is is I think that job to AI systems is is I think that job to AI systems is is I think rightfully regarded you know with horror rightfully regarded you know with horror rightfully regarded you know with horror by by most most Christians. And so by by most most Christians. And so by by most most Christians. And so there's going to be aspects of AI. there's going to be aspects of AI. there's going to be aspects of AI. There's going to be aspects of pastor There's going to be aspects of pastor There's going to be aspects of pastor jobs that are you know given given to AI jobs that are you know given given to AI jobs that are you know given given to AI systems hopefully more on the admin end systems hopefully more on the admin end systems hopefully more on the admin end than than on the you know the writing of than than on the you know the writing of than than on the you know the writing of sermons. Um I have heard a couple of sermons. Um I have heard a couple of sermons. Um I have heard a couple of homalies in church uh which I'm pretty homalies in church uh which I'm pretty homalies in church uh which I'm pretty sure were written by AI recently which sure were written by AI recently which sure were written by AI recently which was a shame uh you know on the Sabbath was a shame uh you know on the Sabbath was a shame uh you know on the Sabbath when I'm don't want to be thinking about when I'm don't want to be thinking about when I'm don't want to be thinking about AI policy to be to be uh you know AI policy to be to be uh you know AI policy to be to be uh you know confronted with but um hopefully you confronted with but um hopefully you confronted with but um hopefully you know over time church leaders are know over time church leaders are know over time church leaders are realizing that realizing that realizing that even flawed as we all are um and busy as even flawed as we all are um and busy as even flawed as we all are um and busy as we all are and you know um it's not it's we all are and you know um it's not it's we all are and you know um it's not it's not easy to write a really good um not easy to write a really good um not easy to write a really good um sermon or talk um it's not going to

sermon or talk um it's not going to sermon or talk um it's not going to perfect when you do it, but it's so much perfect when you do it, but it's so much perfect when you do it, but it's so much better to be able to do it and do it better to be able to do it and do it better to be able to do it and do it yourself. Um that that to give that yourself. Um that that to give that yourself. Um that that to give that away. Um and I think some examples of away. Um and I think some examples of away. Um and I think some examples of that are more instructive than others. that are more instructive than others. that are more instructive than others. Would you want an AI to write um the the Would you want an AI to write um the the Would you want an AI to write um the the testimony at your funeral, you know, um testimony at your funeral, you know, um testimony at your funeral, you know, um not really. And so so think about that not really. And so so think about that not really. And so so think about that in regards to how the spirit is going to in regards to how the spirit is going to in regards to how the spirit is going to move a church leader to write a talk move a church leader to write a talk move a church leader to write a talk that is actually you know a prayerful that is actually you know a prayerful that is actually you know a prayerful reflection on scripture um rather than reflection on scripture um rather than reflection on scripture um rather than uh written by an AI system and and and uh written by an AI system and and and uh written by an AI system and and and I'll just add something to that which is I'll just add something to that which is I'll just add something to that which is that if I if what I'm saying sounds a that if I if what I'm saying sounds a that if I if what I'm saying sounds a little bit too rooted in you know little bit too rooted in you know little bit too rooted in you know abstract thoughts of oh I want to be abstract thoughts of oh I want to be abstract thoughts of oh I want to be able to be a thinker and so on even on able to be a thinker and so on even on able to be a thinker and so on even on the practical side of things the practical side of things the practical side of things AI systems seem like they are neutral AI systems seem like they are neutral AI systems seem like they are neutral and kind of factual and you know uh if I and kind of factual and you know uh if I and kind of factual and you know uh if I put in a good prompt it will be my work put in a good prompt it will be my work put in a good prompt it will be my work but sort of just fleshed out. It's not but sort of just fleshed out. It's not but sort of just fleshed out. It's not you know I think this is becoming the you know I think this is becoming the you know I think this is becoming the the the Southern Baptist Convention and the the Southern Baptist Convention and the the Southern Baptist Convention and the Pope have both been saying recently the Pope have both been saying recently the Pope have both been saying recently you know we should no longer regard you know we should no longer regard you know we should no longer regard technology as neutral. Um it looks technology as neutral. Um it looks technology as neutral. Um it looks neutral. uh LLMs give you a neutral neutral. uh LLMs give you a neutral neutral. uh LLMs give you a neutral seeming facade but it's very much uh seeming facade but it's very much uh seeming facade but it's very much uh woven through with the worldview that it woven through with the worldview that it woven through with the worldview that it has consumed from the internet that it has consumed from the internet that it has consumed from the internet that it has been trained by its by its open AI has been trained by its by its open AI has been trained by its by its open AI anthropic handlers who are not Christian anthropic handlers who are not Christian anthropic handlers who are not Christian on the whole. Um I would be very nervous on the whole. Um I would be very nervous on the whole. Um I would be very nervous about what um

about what um about what um you know how how sermons could be you know how how sermons could be you know how how sermons could be gradually leading a congregation astray gradually leading a congregation astray gradually leading a congregation astray over multiple years if they are relying over multiple years if they are relying over multiple years if they are relying on AI. um output on AI. um output on AI. um output um because they are not informed by the um because they are not informed by the um because they are not informed by the spirit in the way that you are. >> And that's the mic drop right there. I >> And that's the mic drop right there. I couldn't agree more. Well, I don't know couldn't agree more. Well, I don't know couldn't agree more. Well, I don't know whether you're a dad. Do you have whether you're a dad. Do you have whether you're a dad. Do you have children? children? children? >> Not not not yet, alas. >> Not not not yet, alas. >> Not not not yet, alas. >> Not not yet, alas. But if you did, let's >> Not not yet, alas. But if you did, let's >> Not not yet, alas. But if you did, let's say you had a 5-year-old. Um, you know, say you had a 5-year-old. Um, you know, say you had a 5-year-old. Um, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was hearing out of Silicon Valley and people hearing out of Silicon Valley and people hearing out of Silicon Valley and people I knew there that the people who worked I knew there that the people who worked I knew there that the people who worked at the big tech companies at the time at the big tech companies at the time at the big tech companies at the time and the social media companies were the and the social media companies were the and the social media companies were the least likely to give their children least likely to give their children least likely to give their children access to technology. There was no iPad access to technology. There was no iPad access to technology. There was no iPad babysitting. If you were actually babysitting. If you were actually babysitting. If you were actually developing the iPad, you did not give it developing the iPad, you did not give it developing the iPad, you did not give it to your 5-year-old. And you go to to your 5-year-old. And you go to to your 5-year-old. And you go to restaurants now for the last 15 years, restaurants now for the last 15 years, restaurants now for the last 15 years, and what do parents and grandparents do? and what do parents and grandparents do? and what do parents and grandparents do? I can't shut this kid up. I'm just going I can't shut this kid up. I'm just going I can't shut this kid up. I'm just going to give him the iPad and play your game to give him the iPad and play your game to give him the iPad and play your game or watch your movie or whatever. would or watch your movie or whatever. would or watch your movie or whatever. would you be um how would you be approaching you be um how would you be approaching you be um how would you be approaching children knowing what you know about AI?

children knowing what you know about AI? children knowing what you know about AI? What would your approach be? Would you What would your approach be? Would you What would your approach be? Would you be yeah let's dive in and use it be yeah let's dive in and use it be yeah let's dive in and use it responsibly or would you be like nah responsibly or would you be like nah responsibly or would you be like nah you're not getting a phone till you're you're not getting a phone till you're you're not getting a phone till you're 37? Like how how would you handle that? 37? Like how how would you handle that? 37? Like how how would you handle that? Will Will Will >> uh closer to the latter I think. Um >> uh closer to the latter I think. Um >> uh closer to the latter I think. Um yeah, no I I the the more one sees of yeah, no I I the the more one sees of yeah, no I I the the more one sees of this world of AI this world of AI this world of AI um you know obviously in the worst cases um you know obviously in the worst cases um you know obviously in the worst cases uh horrific things happening but even uh horrific things happening but even uh horrific things happening but even just for the for the baseline case of just for the for the baseline case of just for the for the baseline case of you know overdependence on tech, you know overdependence on tech, you know overdependence on tech, inability to express oneself, inability inability to express oneself, inability inability to express oneself, inability to socialize, inability to um sort of to socialize, inability to um sort of to socialize, inability to um sort of think you know carefully about an issue think you know carefully about an issue think you know carefully about an issue and and develop um empathy for for other and and develop um empathy for for other and and develop um empathy for for other humans rather than this sort of weird humans rather than this sort of weird humans rather than this sort of weird you know um you know um you know um indulgent empathy that one gets from indulgent empathy that one gets from indulgent empathy that one gets from from an AI system. Um I you know for all from an AI system. Um I you know for all from an AI system. Um I you know for all sorts of reasons um I I would be very sorts of reasons um I I would be very sorts of reasons um I I would be very very cautious about um the use of very cautious about um the use of very cautious about um the use of technology technology technology >> have a pretty analog house. >> have a pretty analog house. >> have a pretty analog house. >> Uh one can dream. Yeah.

>> Uh one can dream. Yeah. >> Uh one can dream. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be my >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be my >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be my approach too because it's it's approach too because it's it's approach too because it's it's interesting. I had a neighbor. we have a interesting. I had a neighbor. we have a interesting. I had a neighbor. we have a problem just with the internet on the problem just with the internet on the problem just with the internet on the street. And he came over to me uh street. And he came over to me uh street. And he came over to me uh yesterday and he goes, "What's up with yesterday and he goes, "What's up with yesterday and he goes, "What's up with the internet service?" And this is a guy the internet service?" And this is a guy the internet service?" And this is a guy I've talked to like once in my life. And I've talked to like once in my life. And I've talked to like once in my life. And we just he was a little upset about we just he was a little upset about we just he was a little upset about something, but we talked about it for 10 something, but we talked about it for 10 something, but we talked about it for 10 minutes. It was great. We shook hands, minutes. It was great. We shook hands, minutes. It was great. We shook hands, exchanged texts. It's all fixed. It's exchanged texts. It's all fixed. It's exchanged texts. It's all fixed. It's all solved. And I said to him after all solved. And I said to him after all solved. And I said to him after like, "Dan, thanks so much. This was like, "Dan, thanks so much. This was like, "Dan, thanks so much. This was just good to be able to hammer this just good to be able to hammer this just good to be able to hammer this out." And he goes, "Yeah, it is." And he out." And he goes, "Yeah, it is." And he out." And he goes, "Yeah, it is." And he goes, "I don't see the next generation goes, "I don't see the next generation goes, "I don't see the next generation with this skill set." I said, "I agree." with this skill set." I said, "I agree." with this skill set." I said, "I agree." And then I went to return something at a And then I went to return something at a And then I went to return something at a big box store last night big box store last night big box store last night >> and I was kind of making conversation >> and I was kind of making conversation >> and I was kind of making conversation with the person and she didn't respond with the person and she didn't respond with the person and she didn't respond at all. She was younger and then she at all. She was younger and then she at all. She was younger and then she just kind of went membership card. just kind of went membership card. just kind of went membership card. Yeah, sure. Here here it is. Like we Yeah, sure. Here here it is. Like we Yeah, sure. Here here it is. Like we already see a degradation of social already see a degradation of social already see a degradation of social skills. I'm not saying that's universal, skills. I'm not saying that's universal, skills. I'm not saying that's universal, but I'm just saying I I couldn't agree but I'm just saying I I couldn't agree but I'm just saying I I couldn't agree more that I think we're in a really more that I think we're in a really more that I think we're in a really interesting time. Well, there's so much interesting time. Well, there's so much interesting time. Well, there's so much we didn't get to. That's why we got I we didn't get to. That's why we got I we didn't get to. That's why we got I think seven parts in the series. We think seven parts in the series. We think seven parts in the series. We didn't touch mental health, but yeah, AI didn't touch mental health, but yeah, AI didn't touch mental health, but yeah, AI chatbot relationships, that's not going chatbot relationships, that's not going chatbot relationships, that's not going to be a good scenario for us either. Is to be a good scenario for us either. Is to be a good scenario for us either. Is there anything you want to say that we there anything you want to say that we there anything you want to say that we didn't get to today or anything really didn't get to today or anything really didn't get to today or anything really important that everybody listening needs important that everybody listening needs important that everybody listening needs to know before we sign off?

to know before we sign off? to know before we sign off? >> Uh, no, I think I think we covered a lot >> Uh, no, I think I think we covered a lot >> Uh, no, I think I think we covered a lot here. I would just say if people are here. I would just say if people are here. I would just say if people are wanting to think more about these the wanting to think more about these the wanting to think more about these the big question around, you know, what big question around, you know, what big question around, you know, what direction should we go in? If if it's direction should we go in? If if it's direction should we go in? If if it's the time to build, as Silicon Valley the time to build, as Silicon Valley the time to build, as Silicon Valley loves to say, what are we actually loves to say, what are we actually loves to say, what are we actually building? um the question that the pope building? um the question that the pope building? um the question that the pope opens with his encyclical, do we are we opens with his encyclical, do we are we opens with his encyclical, do we are we wanting to build the tower of Babel um wanting to build the tower of Babel um wanting to build the tower of Babel um which is what it looks like a little bit which is what it looks like a little bit which is what it looks like a little bit or are we wanting to you know build or are we wanting to you know build or are we wanting to you know build together with God at the center um you together with God at the center um you together with God at the center um you know rebuild the city of Jerusalem the know rebuild the city of Jerusalem the know rebuild the city of Jerusalem the the way of Nehemiah as as he puts it um the way of Nehemiah as as he puts it um the way of Nehemiah as as he puts it um in less spiritual terms I would say if in less spiritual terms I would say if in less spiritual terms I would say if you are wanting to think about those you are wanting to think about those you are wanting to think about those questions of you know are we building a questions of you know are we building a questions of you know are we building a prohuman future or not um you know FLI prohuman future or not um you know FLI prohuman future or not um you know FLI has has put out a couple has has put out a couple has has put out a couple websites recently. One is the prohuman websites recently. One is the prohuman websites recently. One is the prohuman declaration signed by lots of faith declaration signed by lots of faith declaration signed by lots of faith groups in the US. Um starting to think groups in the US. Um starting to think groups in the US. Um starting to think about, you know, what are the guardrails about, you know, what are the guardrails about, you know, what are the guardrails and red lines we need to put in place if and red lines we need to put in place if and red lines we need to put in place if we're going to preserve what's human. Um we're going to preserve what's human. Um we're going to preserve what's human. Um uh and then another site which is sort uh and then another site which is sort uh and then another site which is sort of built on that is called a better path of built on that is called a better path of built on that is called a better path for.ai.

for.ai. for.ai. Um, and I would say that lays out a lot Um, and I would say that lays out a lot Um, and I would say that lays out a lot of these things around the different of these things around the different of these things around the different races, the race to replace. Um, and then races, the race to replace. Um, and then races, the race to replace. Um, and then how we might, you know, choose a better how we might, you know, choose a better how we might, you know, choose a better path uh for human flourishing. Um, so path uh for human flourishing. Um, so path uh for human flourishing. Um, so long as we can, you know, keep these long as we can, you know, keep these long as we can, you know, keep these things in check and keep humans in things in check and keep humans in things in check and keep humans in control. control. control. >> Well, we'll link to all of those >> Well, we'll link to all of those >> Well, we'll link to all of those resources in the show notes, which you resources in the show notes, which you resources in the show notes, which you can get at the art of can get at the art of can get at the art of leadershipacademy.com for free. And leadershipacademy.com for free. And leadershipacademy.com for free. And Will, I just want to thank you for the Will, I just want to thank you for the Will, I just want to thank you for the work you're doing. Is it too late to work you're doing. Is it too late to work you're doing. Is it too late to sign the petition? If you want to see uh sign the petition? If you want to see uh sign the petition? If you want to see uh an an arms race, so to speak, when it an an arms race, so to speak, when it an an arms race, so to speak, when it comes to like a day taunt when it comes comes to like a day taunt when it comes comes to like a day taunt when it comes to artificial super intelligence, not to artificial super intelligence, not to artificial super intelligence, not too late to do that. So, we'll link that too late to do that. So, we'll link that too late to do that. So, we'll link that in. And and we're not powerless. We have in. And and we're not powerless. We have in. And and we're not powerless. We have the potential to shape the future. And the potential to shape the future. And the potential to shape the future. And uh we'll also link to the document on uh we'll also link to the document on uh we'll also link to the document on human agency, which again, I think is human agency, which again, I think is human agency, which again, I think is such a huge issue. That's what I'm such a huge issue. That's what I'm such a huge issue. That's what I'm trying to fight for in my own life. I trying to fight for in my own life. I trying to fight for in my own life. I don't want to download my brain to don't want to download my brain to don't want to download my brain to something and lose the cognitive ability something and lose the cognitive ability something and lose the cognitive ability to make decisions, to make decisions, to make decisions, >> etc., etc. that are in the best interest >> etc., etc. that are in the best interest >> etc., etc. that are in the best interest of the company. AI informed but not of the company. AI informed but not of the company. AI informed but not AIdriven is perhaps one way to think AIdriven is perhaps one way to think AIdriven is perhaps one way to think about it. But anyway, Will, super about it. But anyway, Will, super about it. But anyway, Will, super helpful. Thank you so much. If people helpful. Thank you so much. If people helpful. Thank you so much. If people want to learn more, what's a good want to learn more, what's a good want to learn more, what's a good website and where could they track with website and where could they track with website and where could they track with you online?

you online? you online? >> Uh, yeah, so the organization I work for >> Uh, yeah, so the organization I work for >> Uh, yeah, so the organization I work for is Futureoflife uh Institute. is Futureoflife uh Institute. is Futureoflife uh Institute. Futureoflife.org is the is the website Futureoflife.org is the is the website Futureoflife.org is the is the website for that. Um, most of the resources that for that. Um, most of the resources that for that. Um, most of the resources that that I'm involved will with will be that I'm involved will with will be that I'm involved will with will be shared on there. Um, but I'm also uh on shared on there. Um, but I'm also uh on shared on there. Um, but I'm also uh on on Twitter, will JMJ Jones if people on Twitter, will JMJ Jones if people on Twitter, will JMJ Jones if people want to see articles I'm I'm writing and want to see articles I'm I'm writing and want to see articles I'm I'm writing and that sort of thing. that sort of thing. that sort of thing. >> Great. Thank you so much for your >> Great. Thank you so much for your >> Great. Thank you so much for your insight and for your wisdom today. We insight and for your wisdom today. We insight and for your wisdom today. We all need it. I definitely do as well. all need it. I definitely do as well. all need it. I definitely do as well. Thanks, Will. Thanks, Will. Thanks, Will. >> Thanks, Carrie. All the best. >> Thanks, Carrie. All the best. >> Thanks, Carrie. All the best. >> There's an awful lot that Will and I >> There's an awful lot that Will and I >> There's an awful lot that Will and I talked about and so much we didn't get talked about and so much we didn't get talked about and so much we didn't get to, which is why this is a longer to, which is why this is a longer to, which is why this is a longer series. So, what we're going to do is series. So, what we're going to do is series. So, what we're going to do is we're going to make everything available we're going to make everything available we're going to make everything available to you in the show notes. You'll to you in the show notes. You'll to you in the show notes. You'll probably want to check that out. Go to probably want to check that out. Go to probably want to check that out. Go to the art of leadershipacademy.com the art of leadershipacademy.com the art of leadershipacademy.com and you can just access everything there and you can just access everything there and you can just access everything there for free with over 22,000 other church for free with over 22,000 other church for free with over 22,000 other church leaders. I think it's really important leaders. I think it's really important leaders. I think it's really important that we not just educate ourselves about that we not just educate ourselves about that we not just educate ourselves about this, but take action on it. You this, but take action on it. You this, but take action on it. You probably want to go deeper in some of probably want to go deeper in some of probably want to go deeper in some of the stuff on human agency on uh what you the stuff on human agency on uh what you the stuff on human agency on uh what you can do to really make a difference. can do to really make a difference. can do to really make a difference. Maybe you want to sign the petition to Maybe you want to sign the petition to Maybe you want to sign the petition to ban super intelligent artificial ban super intelligent artificial ban super intelligent artificial intelligence. Also coming up on the AI intelligence. Also coming up on the AI intelligence. Also coming up on the AI series, James Kelly, um Mark Sers, and series, James Kelly, um Mark Sers, and series, James Kelly, um Mark Sers, and we've also got Freya India, and a whole we've also got Freya India, and a whole we've also got Freya India, and a whole lot more. Also coming up, we got Aaron lot more. Also coming up, we got Aaron lot more. Also coming up, we got Aaron Graham, Annf DS. Thank you so much for Graham, Annf DS. Thank you so much for Graham, Annf DS. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was listening. If this conversation was listening. If this conversation was helpful, uh I know it can be disturbing helpful, uh I know it can be disturbing helpful, uh I know it can be disturbing at times, but I hope it was helpful.

at times, but I hope it was helpful. at times, but I hope it was helpful. Leave a review or a comment wherever Leave a review or a comment wherever Leave a review or a comment wherever you're watching or listening. Don't you're watching or listening. Don't you're watching or listening. Don't forget to hit the follow button, share forget to hit the follow button, share forget to hit the follow button, share it with a friend if it meant something it with a friend if it meant something it with a friend if it meant something to you, and even tag us in social media. to you, and even tag us in social media. to you, and even tag us in social media. I'm Carrie Nu-Uhoff on Instagram and Tik I'm Carrie Nu-Uhoff on Instagram and Tik I'm Carrie Nu-Uhoff on Instagram and Tik Tok. We are on X. We are all over the Tok. We are on X. We are all over the Tok. We are on X. We are all over the place. So, you can find us there and place. So, you can find us there and place. So, you can find us there and give us a shout out. And we'll continue give us a shout out. And we'll continue give us a shout out. And we'll continue doing this, doing the research on your doing this, doing the research on your doing this, doing the research on your behalf, and hopefully bringing you behalf, and hopefully bringing you behalf, and hopefully bringing you conversations that going to make you a conversations that going to make you a conversations that going to make you a better leader and ultimately a better better leader and ultimately a better better leader and ultimately a better human. I hope our conversation today has human. I hope our conversation today has human. I hope our conversation today has helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.