Double Your Church Outreach! | Brad Hill on the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Only 25% of churches Only 25% of churches uh uh uh in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. Woah. Woah. Woah. Um so if you if your church In other Um so if you if your church In other Um so if you if your church In other words to say that is if your church grew words to say that is if your church grew words to say that is if your church grew in 2023, you're in the top 25%. in 2023, you're in the top 25%. in 2023, you're in the top 25%. Um Um Um most were flat if not declining. The most were flat if not declining. The most were flat if not declining. The more sobering stat, I believe some more sobering stat, I believe some more sobering stat, I believe some pastors are paying attention to this, I pastors are paying attention to this, I pastors are paying attention to this, I think too few are paying attention, is think too few are paying attention, is think too few are paying attention, is most of the so-called growth or new most of the so-called growth or new most of the so-called growth or new attenders we see are really just attenders we see are really just attenders we see are really just transfer growth. transfer growth. transfer growth. Um that's not a new trend. That was that Um that's not a new trend. That was that Um that's not a new trend. That was that was in place before COVID, but it's was in place before COVID, but it's was in place before COVID, but it's accelerating. You know, the best I can accelerating. You know, the best I can accelerating. You know, the best I can see today is about 80% of church growth see today is about 80% of church growth see today is about 80% of church growth is transfer growth. is transfer growth. is transfer growth. Um there's entire denominations where Um there's entire denominations where Um there's entire denominations where uh and I won't name names not to single uh and I won't name names not to single uh and I won't name names not to single anybody out, but you know, a large anybody out, but you know, a large anybody out, but you know, a large denomination I recently was studying denomination I recently was studying denomination I recently was studying Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. 48% of the of the churches in that 48% of the of the churches in that 48% of the of the churches in that denomination experienced no converts or denomination experienced no converts or denomination experienced no converts or baptisms baptisms baptisms in the last year. in the last year. in the last year. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, if you're new here, make joined us. Hey, if you're new here, make joined us. Hey, if you're new here, make sure you subscribe. You will get sure you subscribe. You will get sure you subscribe. You will get fantastic episodes like this one. I sit fantastic episodes like this one. I sit fantastic episodes like this one. I sit down with Brad Hill. We're going to talk down with Brad Hill. We're going to talk down with Brad Hill. We're going to talk about how to more than double your about how to more than double your about how to more than double your outreach impact as a church, where the outreach impact as a church, where the outreach impact as a church, where the future of tech is going, and a whole lot future of tech is going, and a whole lot future of tech is going, and a whole lot more. Hey, I just got back from a week more. Hey, I just got back from a week more. Hey, I just got back from a week in Guatemala. And uh I got to tell you, in Guatemala. And uh I got to tell you, in Guatemala. And uh I got to tell you, I love the work Compassion is doing. My I love the work Compassion is doing. My I love the work Compassion is doing. My wife Tony and I, we sponsor uh some wife Tony and I, we sponsor uh some wife Tony and I, we sponsor uh some children, and we got to meet them children, and we got to meet them children, and we got to meet them personally. Some of them for the first personally. Some of them for the first personally. Some of them for the first time. They're newly sponsored kids. One

time. They're newly sponsored kids. One time. They're newly sponsored kids. One we've been sponsoring for over a decade, we've been sponsoring for over a decade, we've been sponsoring for over a decade, and I got to tell you, it's one of the and I got to tell you, it's one of the and I got to tell you, it's one of the most powerful experiences. But what most powerful experiences. But what most powerful experiences. But what really inspires me is the job that really inspires me is the job that really inspires me is the job that Compassion is doing on the ground Compassion is doing on the ground Compassion is doing on the ground through the local church. So, if you're through the local church. So, if you're through the local church. So, if you're wondering what you can do to make an wondering what you can do to make an wondering what you can do to make an impact personally or organizationally as impact personally or organizationally as impact personally or organizationally as a church, you can have a Compassion a church, you can have a Compassion a church, you can have a Compassion Sunday come to your church absolutely Sunday come to your church absolutely Sunday come to your church absolutely free. To learn more, go to free. To learn more, go to free. To learn more, go to compassion.com/carey. compassion.com/carey. compassion.com/carey. I got to tell you, it's changed my life. I got to tell you, it's changed my life. I got to tell you, it's changed my life. It's going to change the lives of a lot It's going to change the lives of a lot It's going to change the lives of a lot of people in your church, not to mention of people in your church, not to mention of people in your church, not to mention the people that you're able to help the people that you're able to help the people that you're able to help through it. And Generous, you know, they through it. And Generous, you know, they through it. And Generous, you know, they are on a mission to close the gap are on a mission to close the gap are on a mission to close the gap between your current resources and your between your current resources and your between your current resources and your vision. That's something that every vision. That's something that every vision. That's something that every church leader struggles with. You got a church leader struggles with. You got a church leader struggles with. You got a vision, then you got what you got, vision, then you got what you got, vision, then you got what you got, right? Which is not quite up to the right? Which is not quite up to the right? Which is not quite up to the level of the vision. So, for free level of the vision. So, for free level of the vision. So, for free financial reporting resources and tools financial reporting resources and tools financial reporting resources and tools to better understand your church's to better understand your church's to better understand your church's generosity health, visit to my generosity health, visit to my generosity health, visit to my conversation with Brad Hill. Brad, so delighted to with Brad Hill. Brad, so delighted to have you on the podcast.

have you on the podcast. have you on the podcast. Carey, it's good to good to be with you. Carey, it's good to good to be with you. Carey, it's good to good to be with you. This is going to be fun. This is going to be fun. This is going to be fun. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we've known each other for years, Um, so we've known each other for years, Um, so we've known each other for years, but uh going to introduce a lot of but uh going to introduce a lot of but uh going to introduce a lot of listeners to you today, and I always listeners to you today, and I always listeners to you today, and I always love sitting down and picking your love sitting down and picking your love sitting down and picking your brain, having conversations with you, brain, having conversations with you, brain, having conversations with you, talking about trends, talking about talking about trends, talking about talking about trends, talking about what's happening in the church. And like what's happening in the church. And like what's happening in the church. And like me, you've been at it a little while. me, you've been at it a little while. me, you've been at it a little while. So, I want to go back 25 years. So, I want to go back 25 years. So, I want to go back 25 years. What are some of the biggest changes What are some of the biggest changes What are some of the biggest changes you've seen in how churches approach you've seen in how churches approach you've seen in how churches approach ministry over the last 25 years, Brad? ministry over the last 25 years, Brad? ministry over the last 25 years, Brad? Well, yeah, that makes me feel old Well, yeah, that makes me feel old Well, yeah, that makes me feel old saying let's go back 25 years. saying let's go back 25 years. saying let's go back 25 years. Yeah. Well, back to when back to your Yeah. Well, back to when back to your Yeah. Well, back to when back to your childhood, Brad. childhood, Brad. childhood, Brad. Back to That's right. Um, Back to That's right. Um, Back to That's right. Um, well, it's it's been a blessing overall, well, it's it's been a blessing overall, well, it's it's been a blessing overall, Carey, for me to be in this weird niche Carey, for me to be in this weird niche Carey, for me to be in this weird niche space in the sense of technology in the space in the sense of technology in the space in the sense of technology in the church, and church, and church, and you know, thinking about those years, I you know, thinking about those years, I you know, thinking about those years, I I I have seen some really distinct, I I have seen some really distinct, I I have seen some really distinct, almost like acts of a play, it seems almost like acts of a play, it seems almost like acts of a play, it seems like, you know, going back 25 years I like, you know, going back 25 years I like, you know, going back 25 years I guess would carry us back to the '90s. guess would carry us back to the '90s. guess would carry us back to the '90s. And um And um And um this was this was a period where I just this was this was a period where I just this was this was a period where I just the idea of using technology in your the idea of using technology in your the idea of using technology in your church, I think was very new, church, I think was very new, church, I think was very new, a little bit foreign. We were still a little bit foreign. We were still a little bit foreign. We were still getting used to computers. This is getting used to computers. This is getting used to computers. This is pre-internet for the for most of us, pre-internet for the for most of us, pre-internet for the for most of us, right? And so right? And so right? And so um running spreadsheets, for example, to um running spreadsheets, for example, to um running spreadsheets, for example, to maybe think about the accounting in our maybe think about the accounting in our maybe think about the accounting in our church or maybe maybe having a database church or maybe maybe having a database church or maybe maybe having a database of church members instead of having of church members instead of having of church members instead of having handwritten rolls, typewriters. That was handwritten rolls, typewriters. That was handwritten rolls, typewriters. That was like one era, just introducing the

like one era, just introducing the like one era, just introducing the concept of technology in a church. I concept of technology in a church. I concept of technology in a church. I think it was very administrative for the think it was very administrative for the think it was very administrative for the most part is what we tended to see. most part is what we tended to see. most part is what we tended to see. And then, you know, the internet came And then, you know, the internet came And then, you know, the internet came around right around the turn of 2000. around right around the turn of 2000. around right around the turn of 2000. And through that next decade, I just And through that next decade, I just And through that next decade, I just watched and you know, one of the watched and you know, one of the watched and you know, one of the companies I started carry site organic companies I started carry site organic companies I started carry site organic was um kind of early to the party of was um kind of early to the party of was um kind of early to the party of this idea of churches having websites. this idea of churches having websites. this idea of churches having websites. And I remember And I remember And I remember talking to so many pastors talking to so many pastors talking to so many pastors who were asking, "Why would I have a who were asking, "Why would I have a who were asking, "Why would I have a website? Why would I be on the website? Why would I be on the website? Why would I be on the internet?" Um like raising real internet?" Um like raising real internet?" Um like raising real objections. This was new and they had objections. This was new and they had objections. This was new and they had heard bad things or there were concerns heard bad things or there were concerns heard bad things or there were concerns about this World Wide Web deal. And and about this World Wide Web deal. And and about this World Wide Web deal. And and so just watching that adoption curve, so just watching that adoption curve, so just watching that adoption curve, you know, really took us about 10 years you know, really took us about 10 years you know, really took us about 10 years or so I think to get comfortable with or so I think to get comfortable with or so I think to get comfortable with churches online. Um churches online. Um churches online. Um Even even from a web, like web 1.0. Even even from a web, like web 1.0. Even even from a web, like web 1.0. Oh, totally. Yeah, that's right. Oh, totally. Yeah, that's right. Oh, totally. Yeah, that's right. And and also um some of that floppy disk And and also um some of that floppy disk And and also um some of that floppy disk software started to gradually migrate to software started to gradually migrate to software started to gradually migrate to what we now know as the cloud, but what we now know as the cloud, but what we now know as the cloud, but paying a subscription to a church paying a subscription to a church paying a subscription to a church database or maybe a mobile app or database or maybe a mobile app or database or maybe a mobile app or whatever, that was just beginning to whatever, that was just beginning to whatever, that was just beginning to enter the common, you know, enter the common, you know, enter the common, you know, uh mindset in let's say 2010.

uh mindset in let's say 2010. uh mindset in let's say 2010. Um and and that next decade, 2010 to Um and and that next decade, 2010 to Um and and that next decade, 2010 to 2020, I think the cloud took over. And 2020, I think the cloud took over. And 2020, I think the cloud took over. And the other big shift I saw was in giving the other big shift I saw was in giving the other big shift I saw was in giving and generosity. I think and generosity. I think and generosity. I think you know, this idea of having tithes and you know, this idea of having tithes and you know, this idea of having tithes and offerings paid online, paid digitally, offerings paid online, paid digitally, offerings paid online, paid digitally, um really foreign concept. Pastors um really foreign concept. Pastors um really foreign concept. Pastors raising lots of objections again. Um raising lots of objections again. Um raising lots of objections again. Um I heard there's fees and won't my I heard there's fees and won't my I heard there's fees and won't my congregation just give online so they congregation just give online so they congregation just give online so they can get the miles. That was one of my can get the miles. That was one of my can get the miles. That was one of my favorites. favorites. favorites. Um Um Um And so so we we've seen that and it's And so so we we've seen that and it's And so so we we've seen that and it's interesting in all in all cases, I think interesting in all in all cases, I think interesting in all in all cases, I think the church generally has a little bit of the church generally has a little bit of the church generally has a little bit of an arms crossed posture um when new an arms crossed posture um when new an arms crossed posture um when new technology comes around. There's some technology comes around. There's some technology comes around. There's some early adopters, but takes us a little early adopters, but takes us a little early adopters, but takes us a little while to figure out if we're going to while to figure out if we're going to while to figure out if we're going to embrace embrace embrace something new and and I think here we something new and and I think here we something new and and I think here we are in the footsteps of AI. are in the footsteps of AI. are in the footsteps of AI. Um and Um and Um and you know, cloud technology, but um this you know, cloud technology, but um this you know, cloud technology, but um this this idea of web 3 this idea of web 3 this idea of web 3 and I know we'll get into this, but and I know we'll get into this, but and I know we'll get into this, but where we're going next, where we're going next, where we're going next, I'm seeing maybe more openness this I'm seeing maybe more openness this I'm seeing maybe more openness this time, it feels, time, it feels, time, it feels, to churches being willing and open to to churches being willing and open to to churches being willing and open to try new stuff, which is encouraging try new stuff, which is encouraging try new stuff, which is encouraging compared to those last several rounds compared to those last several rounds compared to those last several rounds that I watched.

that I watched. that I watched. Well, let's talk about early adopters. Well, let's talk about early adopters. Well, let's talk about early adopters. I'm glad that phrase came up because, I'm glad that phrase came up because, I'm glad that phrase came up because, you know, you're sort of reliving my you know, you're sort of reliving my you know, you're sort of reliving my ministry. I started 1995. ministry. I started 1995. ministry. I started 1995. I think I got an email address in 1996 I think I got an email address in 1996 I think I got an email address in 1996 and it was dial-up and it was slow and and it was dial-up and it was slow and and it was dial-up and it was slow and the whole deal. And your chronology is the whole deal. And your chronology is the whole deal. And your chronology is pretty accurate. You know, we might have pretty accurate. You know, we might have pretty accurate. You know, we might have been a few years ahead, been a few years ahead, been a few years ahead, but not a lot. I'm curious, you know, but not a lot. I'm curious, you know, but not a lot. I'm curious, you know, when you look back over the last 25 when you look back over the last 25 when you look back over the last 25 years, what did happen to those early years, what did happen to those early years, what did happen to those early adopters adopters adopters in tech? in tech? in tech? I mean, I'm thinking about Life Church. I mean, I'm thinking about Life Church. I mean, I'm thinking about Life Church. You're right, a lot of churches were You're right, a lot of churches were You're right, a lot of churches were questioning, should we even have a questioning, should we even have a questioning, should we even have a website? And and I smiled because website? And and I smiled because website? And and I smiled because do you remember when church websites had do you remember when church websites had do you remember when church websites had music on them? I mean, for those who music on them? I mean, for those who music on them? I mean, for those who remember, it was like some Lutheran hymn remember, it was like some Lutheran hymn remember, it was like some Lutheran hymn or something or Presbyterian hymn. I'm or something or Presbyterian hymn. I'm or something or Presbyterian hymn. I'm Presbyterian in background. That was Presbyterian in background. That was Presbyterian in background. That was playing in the background when you went playing in the background when you went playing in the background when you went on a website and little sheep like on a website and little sheep like on a website and little sheep like floating above Anyway, it was weird. It floating above Anyway, it was weird. It floating above Anyway, it was weird. It was a weird era. Um was a weird era. Um was a weird era. Um But like Life Church pioneered church But like Life Church pioneered church But like Life Church pioneered church online in 2006.

online in 2006. online in 2006. And when you think that a lot of And when you think that a lot of And when you think that a lot of churches were asking the question, churches were asking the question, churches were asking the question, should we even have a website? and Life should we even have a website? and Life should we even have a website? and Life Church says, Church says, Church says, "We're going to try church online." "We're going to try church online." "We're going to try church online." And other churches were doing video And other churches were doing video And other churches were doing video campuses. campuses. campuses. What is the early mover advantage on What is the early mover advantage on What is the early mover advantage on tech? And maybe we should, to be fair, tech? And maybe we should, to be fair, tech? And maybe we should, to be fair, cover some of the disadvantages, too. cover some of the disadvantages, too. cover some of the disadvantages, too. Well, I think, you know, I I guess maybe Well, I think, you know, I I guess maybe Well, I think, you know, I I guess maybe request permission to reframe a bit, request permission to reframe a bit, request permission to reframe a bit, only in the sense of only in the sense of only in the sense of I think there's really a mindset I think there's really a mindset I think there's really a mindset of of of curiosity, maybe innovation curiosity, maybe innovation curiosity, maybe innovation that you see in certain churches. I that you see in certain churches. I that you see in certain churches. I mean, you brought up Life Church, and mean, you brought up Life Church, and mean, you brought up Life Church, and you're right, they pioneered church you're right, they pioneered church you're right, they pioneered church online. Brandon Kennedy, Terry Storch, online. Brandon Kennedy, Terry Storch, online. Brandon Kennedy, Terry Storch, Bobby Gruenewald, all those guys, Bobby Gruenewald, all those guys, Bobby Gruenewald, all those guys, I mean, hats off. But, there's also some I mean, hats off. But, there's also some I mean, hats off. But, there's also some things that Life Church did early on, things that Life Church did early on, things that Life Church did early on, like, you remember Second Life? like, you remember Second Life? like, you remember Second Life? Oh, I do I do remember Second Life. Oh, I do I do remember Second Life. Oh, I do I do remember Second Life. This idea of virtual reality, and I This idea of virtual reality, and I This idea of virtual reality, and I think Life Church might have been the think Life Church might have been the think Life Church might have been the first, or certainly one of the first, to first, or certainly one of the first, to first, or certainly one of the first, to pioneer having a campus in virtual pioneer having a campus in virtual pioneer having a campus in virtual reality space.

reality space. reality space. And it was interesting, it was kind of a And it was interesting, it was kind of a And it was interesting, it was kind of a fascination. I don't know that, fascination. I don't know that, fascination. I don't know that, you know, folks would say that that was you know, folks would say that that was you know, folks would say that that was like a lasting idea, but like a lasting idea, but like a lasting idea, but man, I I saw that was just to me another man, I I saw that was just to me another man, I I saw that was just to me another exhibit of them having this mindset of exhibit of them having this mindset of exhibit of them having this mindset of "We're always going to be willing to try "We're always going to be willing to try "We're always going to be willing to try something new if it means we could reach something new if it means we could reach something new if it means we could reach one more." one more." one more." Um, and you know, Jeffrey does great Um, and you know, Jeffrey does great Um, and you know, Jeffrey does great work with Church Digital, and there's so work with Church Digital, and there's so work with Church Digital, and there's so many others that have evoked that many others that have evoked that many others that have evoked that mindset. mindset. mindset. So, So, So, whether that I think by definition those whether that I think by definition those whether that I think by definition those people then fall into that early adopter people then fall into that early adopter people then fall into that early adopter category. category. category. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um, Um, Um, but there is sometimes like an early in but there is sometimes like an early in but there is sometimes like an early in in, you know, general consumer tech in, you know, general consumer tech in, you know, general consumer tech products, iPhone, iPad, uh, electric products, iPhone, iPad, uh, electric products, iPhone, iPad, uh, electric vehicles, there's always that person vehicles, there's always that person vehicles, there's always that person that wants to be first on the block just that wants to be first on the block just that wants to be first on the block just because that gives them a dopamine hit because that gives them a dopamine hit because that gives them a dopamine hit or whatever. or whatever. or whatever. Um, and that you see that sometimes in Um, and that you see that sometimes in Um, and that you see that sometimes in the church, but I'm I'm more drawn to the church, but I'm I'm more drawn to the church, but I'm I'm more drawn to those churches and those leaders who are those churches and those leaders who are those churches and those leaders who are saying like, "We're going to stay saying like, "We're going to stay saying like, "We're going to stay curious. We're going to stay really curious. We're going to stay really curious. We're going to stay really mindful of shifts and we're going to mindful of shifts and we're going to mindful of shifts and we're going to make some bets, right? And some of those make some bets, right? And some of those make some bets, right? And some of those are going to pay off and some of them are going to pay off and some of them are going to pay off and some of them like Second Life like Second Life like Second Life or MySpace or whatever are going to come or MySpace or whatever are going to come or MySpace or whatever are going to come and go.

and go. and go. Uh but I really respect those leaders Uh but I really respect those leaders Uh but I really respect those leaders that are willing to try new things. that are willing to try new things. that are willing to try new things. Yeah, and I don't want to misquote Yeah, and I don't want to misquote Yeah, and I don't want to misquote Craig, but I'm pretty sure on this show Craig, but I'm pretty sure on this show Craig, but I'm pretty sure on this show or at least in a conversation I had with or at least in a conversation I had with or at least in a conversation I had with him, he said, him, he said, him, he said, you know, that whole Second Life you know, that whole Second Life you know, that whole Second Life experiment, which didn't last a long experiment, which didn't last a long experiment, which didn't last a long time, was kind of a precursor into time, was kind of a precursor into time, was kind of a precursor into virtual reality. You know, when virtual reality. You know, when virtual reality. You know, when virtuality virtual reality started to virtuality virtual reality started to virtuality virtual reality started to get a big kick in 2021 and churches get a big kick in 2021 and churches get a big kick in 2021 and churches jumped back in, that this was their jumped back in, that this was their jumped back in, that this was their their second iteration. You know, the their second iteration. You know, the their second iteration. You know, the other thing too, to be fair, it's like a other thing too, to be fair, it's like a other thing too, to be fair, it's like a church like Life Church or even church like Life Church or even church like Life Church or even um different congregations that were um different congregations that were um different congregations that were early in on video, they didn't invent early in on video, they didn't invent early in on video, they didn't invent video venues. They didn't invent Second video venues. They didn't invent Second video venues. They didn't invent Second Life. They didn't become a software Life. They didn't become a software Life. They didn't become a software company. They're just like, "Hey, we company. They're just like, "Hey, we company. They're just like, "Hey, we could jump on this." And you look at the could jump on this." And you look at the could jump on this." And you look at the success of Apple, a lot of people would success of Apple, a lot of people would success of Apple, a lot of people would say Apple's known as an innovative say Apple's known as an innovative say Apple's known as an innovative company, but it's not that innovative. company, but it's not that innovative. company, but it's not that innovative. What Steve Jobs did when he was alive What Steve Jobs did when he was alive What Steve Jobs did when he was alive was he waited for everybody else to was he waited for everybody else to was he waited for everybody else to experiment with tablets for a while and experiment with tablets for a while and experiment with tablets for a while and smartphones for a while. And then he was smartphones for a while. And then he was smartphones for a while. And then he was like, "Second wave. And all right, well, like, "Second wave. And all right, well, like, "Second wave. And all right, well, you know, tablets are dead. Here's one you know, tablets are dead. Here's one you know, tablets are dead. Here's one that actually works." And introduced the that actually works." And introduced the that actually works." And introduced the iPad. Or here's a phone without a iPad. Or here's a phone without a iPad. Or here's a phone without a screen. See how you like that. And then, screen. See how you like that. And then, screen. See how you like that. And then, you know, within a few years BlackBerry you know, within a few years BlackBerry you know, within a few years BlackBerry was dethroned. Um was dethroned. Um was dethroned. Um Any thoughts on that?

Any thoughts on that? Any thoughts on that? That, you know, it's not necessarily That, you know, it's not necessarily That, you know, it's not necessarily that we're the first, it's that we've that we're the first, it's that we've that we're the first, it's that we've taken other people's ideas and leveraged taken other people's ideas and leveraged taken other people's ideas and leveraged them for good. them for good. them for good. Yeah, there's a great book called um Yeah, there's a great book called um Yeah, there's a great book called um Unlocking the Customer Value Chain and Unlocking the Customer Value Chain and Unlocking the Customer Value Chain and it talks about it talks about it talks about there in every everything we pursue in there in every everything we pursue in there in every everything we pursue in our lives, you know, buying groceries, our lives, you know, buying groceries, our lives, you know, buying groceries, booking a plane ticket, whatever, um booking a plane ticket, whatever, um booking a plane ticket, whatever, um there's a series of steps you go through there's a series of steps you go through there's a series of steps you go through and some of those steps create value, and some of those steps create value, and some of those steps create value, and some of those steps actually are and some of those steps actually are and some of those steps actually are kind of a hassle or they might destroy kind of a hassle or they might destroy kind of a hassle or they might destroy value. value. value. And I think when I when I've kind of And I think when I when I've kind of And I think when I when I've kind of studied this a little bit, the leaders studied this a little bit, the leaders studied this a little bit, the leaders in the church in the church in the church who are really, you know, kind of who are really, you know, kind of who are really, you know, kind of chalked up as innovators or these early chalked up as innovators or these early chalked up as innovators or these early adopters, adopters, adopters, you're right. It's not that they're you're right. It's not that they're you're right. It's not that they're trying to go first all the time or um trying to go first all the time or um trying to go first all the time or um invent, but they're they're looking at invent, but they're they're looking at invent, but they're they're looking at how might this technology how might this technology how might this technology either save some value-destroying either save some value-destroying either save some value-destroying activity or enhance something that activity or enhance something that activity or enhance something that creates value. So, in the case of like creates value. So, in the case of like creates value. So, in the case of like live-streaming church services, live-streaming church services, live-streaming church services, early early days, that was an attempt early early days, that was an attempt early early days, that was an attempt both to reach people that weren't coming both to reach people that weren't coming both to reach people that weren't coming into our buildings or reach generations into our buildings or reach generations into our buildings or reach generations that were maybe more comfortable. And that were maybe more comfortable. And that were maybe more comfortable. And then, man, when we all hit COVID then, man, when we all hit COVID then, man, when we all hit COVID pandemic, this became almost like a pandemic, this became almost like a pandemic, this became almost like a requirement that we were all using.

requirement that we were all using. requirement that we were all using. Um but, you know, there's a big debate Um but, you know, there's a big debate Um but, you know, there's a big debate in the church with streaming. Is it a in the church with streaming. Is it a in the church with streaming. Is it a front door? Is it a back door? front door? Is it a back door? front door? Is it a back door? And I think what we're finding is that And I think what we're finding is that And I think what we're finding is that it it can be a fluid experience, but uh it it can be a fluid experience, but uh it it can be a fluid experience, but uh having a live stream for your church, having a live stream for your church, having a live stream for your church, just to use that example, just to use that example, just to use that example, I would argue creates value net net I would argue creates value net net I would argue creates value net net because it allows you to reach people because it allows you to reach people because it allows you to reach people that you haven't reached. And you you that you haven't reached. And you you that you haven't reached. And you you get to decide, and you've been great on get to decide, and you've been great on get to decide, and you've been great on this point, Carey, that um do you want this point, Carey, that um do you want this point, Carey, that um do you want to keep them there? Do you want to to keep them there? Do you want to to keep them there? Do you want to encourage them or sometimes guilt them encourage them or sometimes guilt them encourage them or sometimes guilt them into coming to the building? into coming to the building? into coming to the building? Um nonetheless, I think that using these Um nonetheless, I think that using these Um nonetheless, I think that using these technologies technologies technologies uh it's a it's a really interesting uh it's a it's a really interesting uh it's a it's a really interesting concept to say, "What is the value chain concept to say, "What is the value chain concept to say, "What is the value chain people go through people go through people go through when they encounter us and we're trying when they encounter us and we're trying when they encounter us and we're trying to disciple people? And is there a piece to disciple people? And is there a piece to disciple people? And is there a piece of technology that may exist to help us of technology that may exist to help us of technology that may exist to help us just make one little part of that chain just make one little part of that chain just make one little part of that chain better?" better?" better?" If you think about the diffusion of If you think about the diffusion of If you think about the diffusion of innovation curve, you know, you have the innovation curve, you know, you have the innovation curve, you know, you have the innovators, the early adopters, early innovators, the early adopters, early innovators, the early adopters, early majority, late majority, and then uh majority, late majority, and then uh majority, late majority, and then uh laggards.

laggards. laggards. Laggards. Laggards. Laggards. So, I would say I'm probably more an So, I would say I'm probably more an So, I would say I'm probably more an early adopter. I'm not innovator. I just early adopter. I'm not innovator. I just early adopter. I'm not innovator. I just wait to see when somebody else has wait to see when somebody else has wait to see when somebody else has started something. I'm like, "Ooh, that started something. I'm like, "Ooh, that started something. I'm like, "Ooh, that looks good. I think I'll get in on it." looks good. I think I'll get in on it." looks good. I think I'll get in on it." And that's true how I ran the church and And that's true how I ran the church and And that's true how I ran the church and how I've run this company. Uh wasn't the how I've run this company. Uh wasn't the how I've run this company. Uh wasn't the first to the podcast space, but got in, first to the podcast space, but got in, first to the podcast space, but got in, you know, a decade ago when it now seems you know, a decade ago when it now seems you know, a decade ago when it now seems like pioneer days. Didn't seem like that like pioneer days. Didn't seem like that like pioneer days. Didn't seem like that in 2014, but it seems like that now. Um in 2014, but it seems like that now. Um in 2014, but it seems like that now. Um what happens So, we talked a little bit what happens So, we talked a little bit what happens So, we talked a little bit of early adopters. If there's more, of early adopters. If there's more, of early adopters. If there's more, please please please add more. add more. add more. But I really like to also talk about But I really like to also talk about But I really like to also talk about what happens to the laggards? What what happens to the laggards? What what happens to the laggards? What happens to the people who are like, happens to the people who are like, happens to the people who are like, "Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm not I'm "Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm not I'm "Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm not I'm staying as far away as possible from AI. staying as far away as possible from AI. staying as far away as possible from AI. We are not going to digital giving. I We are not going to digital giving. I We are not going to digital giving. I know everybody else has." Although that know everybody else has." Although that know everybody else has." Although that one's sort of a false debate when one's sort of a false debate when one's sort of a false debate when there's there's there's money involved, churches tend to get money involved, churches tend to get money involved, churches tend to get innovative. So, um innovative. So, um innovative. So, um I didn't mean that to be cynical. It's I didn't mean that to be cynical. It's I didn't mean that to be cynical. It's just a realistic statement. Um what What just a realistic statement. Um what What just a realistic statement. Um what What about the laggards? What happens to about the laggards? What happens to about the laggards? What happens to them? them? them? Well, I think this is really interesting Well, I think this is really interesting Well, I think this is really interesting and I, you know, I want to I do I want and I, you know, I want to I do I want and I, you know, I want to I do I want to tread carefully, too, cuz I God's to tread carefully, too, cuz I God's to tread carefully, too, cuz I God's wired all of us. Like you just said wired all of us. Like you just said wired all of us. Like you just said you're an early adopter and there are you're an early adopter and there are you're an early adopter and there are some of us that I mean, really that some of us that I mean, really that some of us that I mean, really that whole diffusion curve you just laid out whole diffusion curve you just laid out whole diffusion curve you just laid out is a little bit of a picture of risk is a little bit of a picture of risk is a little bit of a picture of risk tolerance um for everyone. Like it takes tolerance um for everyone. Like it takes tolerance um for everyone. Like it takes courage to be first on the block and try courage to be first on the block and try courage to be first on the block and try something new and something new and something new and be a leader who makes a decision that be a leader who makes a decision that be a leader who makes a decision that may come back to haunt me later. Um so, may come back to haunt me later. Um so, may come back to haunt me later. Um so, that there there's a sense where there's that there there's a sense where there's that there there's a sense where there's courage, but I think there's also just a courage, but I think there's also just a courage, but I think there's also just a wiring there's an appreciation for

wiring there's an appreciation for wiring there's an appreciation for tried and true, for the sacred, for tried and true, for the sacred, for tried and true, for the sacred, for tradition. All of those things are are tradition. All of those things are are tradition. All of those things are are good things. Um and and like anything good things. Um and and like anything good things. Um and and like anything else can be taken to an extreme. else can be taken to an extreme. else can be taken to an extreme. I I would say though that um the I I would say though that um the I I would say though that um the laggards laggards laggards uh tend to maybe be wired that way to to uh tend to maybe be wired that way to to uh tend to maybe be wired that way to to not want to take risks, to understand not want to take risks, to understand not want to take risks, to understand the water's safe before I go in. the water's safe before I go in. the water's safe before I go in. Um but even like going way back in Um but even like going way back in Um but even like going way back in technology, let's talk about like the technology, let's talk about like the technology, let's talk about like the printing press. printing press. printing press. Mhm. Um Mhm. Um Mhm. Um Early adopters and innovators back in Early adopters and innovators back in Early adopters and innovators back in Gutenberg's day Gutenberg's day Gutenberg's day were decried by some people as heretics, were decried by some people as heretics, were decried by some people as heretics, as sinful, because they were daring to as sinful, because they were daring to as sinful, because they were daring to take God's word and put it into a form take God's word and put it into a form take God's word and put it into a form that could be read by the masses. I that could be read by the masses. I that could be read by the masses. I mean, this was mean, this was mean, this was this was a a risky leadership decision. this was a a risky leadership decision. this was a a risky leadership decision. And yet, isn't it interesting that And yet, isn't it interesting that And yet, isn't it interesting that today's laggards, {quote} {unquote}, today's laggards, {quote} {unquote}, today's laggards, {quote} {unquote}, would cling to paper Bibles and and would cling to paper Bibles and and would cling to paper Bibles and and might issue a Bible app. might issue a Bible app. might issue a Bible app. Um and so, to me, that it's just a it's Um and so, to me, that it's just a it's Um and so, to me, that it's just a it's a cycle. And I think that there's a a cycle. And I think that there's a a cycle. And I think that there's a little bit of a timing to it. Um I I little bit of a timing to it. Um I I little bit of a timing to it. Um I I might make one other point, Carey, which might make one other point, Carey, which might make one other point, Carey, which I think is often overlooked.

I think is often overlooked. I think is often overlooked. Um and that's governance of our Um and that's governance of our Um and that's governance of our churches, especially. churches, especially. churches, especially. Um I've, you know, had the privilege and Um I've, you know, had the privilege and Um I've, you know, had the privilege and honor to serve on a couple boards of honor to serve on a couple boards of honor to serve on a couple boards of churches and elders and things. churches and elders and things. churches and elders and things. And what I see in pastors And what I see in pastors And what I see in pastors often is that, um even in the best of often is that, um even in the best of often is that, um even in the best of relationships, that the pastor may have relationships, that the pastor may have relationships, that the pastor may have with the board or the council or the with the board or the council or the with the board or the council or the session, session, session, there is a certain amount of scrutiny or there is a certain amount of scrutiny or there is a certain amount of scrutiny or pressure put by that governing entity on pressure put by that governing entity on pressure put by that governing entity on what matters in our church. what matters in our church. what matters in our church. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And if what matters is, And if what matters is, And if what matters is, you know, more traditional metrics, you you know, more traditional metrics, you you know, more traditional metrics, you know, attendance, giving, budget, which know, attendance, giving, budget, which know, attendance, giving, budget, which are all good things, by the way, um are all good things, by the way, um are all good things, by the way, um I think that you you produce, I think that you you produce, I think that you you produce, essentially, a leader that's going to essentially, a leader that's going to essentially, a leader that's going to manage to the metrics in some way. manage to the metrics in some way. manage to the metrics in some way. Um Um Um on the other hand, you know, what one of on the other hand, you know, what one of on the other hand, you know, what one of the things we're focusing a lot on right the things we're focusing a lot on right the things we're focusing a lot on right now with Glue and our partnership with now with Glue and our partnership with now with Glue and our partnership with Barna, you've been involved in this, Barna, you've been involved in this, Barna, you've been involved in this, too, too, too, is the idea of if we're called to make is the idea of if we're called to make is the idea of if we're called to make disciples, Matthew 28, um disciples, Matthew 28, um disciples, Matthew 28, um could we measure, or are there are there could we measure, or are there are there could we measure, or are there are there metrics, even, metrics, even, metrics, even, where we're not taking the work of the where we're not taking the work of the where we're not taking the work of the Holy Spirit out, but we're choosing to Holy Spirit out, but we're choosing to Holy Spirit out, but we're choosing to say the way that we want to orient our say the way that we want to orient our say the way that we want to orient our church is based on how the people are church is based on how the people are church is based on how the people are doing, doing, doing, um not how our church is doing, um not how our church is doing, um not how our church is doing, necessarily.

necessarily. necessarily. And um, that level of sort of curiosity And um, that level of sort of curiosity And um, that level of sort of curiosity and interest, let's say, by by a a board and interest, let's say, by by a a board and interest, let's say, by by a a board or elder uh council, or elder uh council, or elder uh council, might produce different behavior in a might produce different behavior in a might produce different behavior in a pastor that says, "I'm going to be pastor that says, "I'm going to be pastor that says, "I'm going to be curious about what I could do now to curious about what I could do now to curious about what I could do now to um, bring in technology or bring in um, bring in technology or bring in um, bring in technology or bring in tools to help me with this." tools to help me with this." tools to help me with this." And we see some great examples where And we see some great examples where And we see some great examples where uh, in one case I'm thinking a pastor uh, in one case I'm thinking a pastor uh, in one case I'm thinking a pastor who has really adopted a interesting who has really adopted a interesting who has really adopted a interesting mindset of mindset of mindset of measuring people and understanding the measuring people and understanding the measuring people and understanding the health of the congregation, health of the congregation, health of the congregation, has managed that way now for a number of has managed that way now for a number of has managed that way now for a number of years. years. years. And as he's done that, the attendance And as he's done that, the attendance And as he's done that, the attendance and giving follow. and giving follow. and giving follow. Um, but he's he's he's really managing, Um, but he's he's he's really managing, Um, but he's he's he's really managing, I would say, in a very different way I would say, in a very different way I would say, in a very different way than I see a lot of churches. So, that than I see a lot of churches. So, that than I see a lot of churches. So, that innovation, that early adopter mindset, innovation, that early adopter mindset, innovation, that early adopter mindset, I think, transcends not just tech tools, I think, transcends not just tech tools, I think, transcends not just tech tools, but method and, you know, other ways but method and, you know, other ways but method and, you know, other ways that that that we're we're leading our congregations we're we're leading our congregations we're we're leading our congregations and managing our church. and managing our church. and managing our church. Um, and I think a lot of that starts at Um, and I think a lot of that starts at Um, and I think a lot of that starts at the very top with how our leadership the very top with how our leadership the very top with how our leadership teams teams teams scrutinize, you know, our results.

scrutinize, you know, our results. scrutinize, you know, our results. Point well taken. I hadn't thought about Point well taken. I hadn't thought about Point well taken. I hadn't thought about that. But you're right. Uh, the that. But you're right. Uh, the that. But you're right. Uh, the governance structure, the board or governance structure, the board or governance structure, the board or whoever is, you know, that the pastor whoever is, you know, that the pastor whoever is, you know, that the pastor uh, reports to, uh, reports to, uh, reports to, is really in a place to set those is really in a place to set those is really in a place to set those expectations. And as you were talking expectations. And as you were talking expectations. And as you were talking about going all the way back to about going all the way back to about going all the way back to Gutenberg, there's not a single person Gutenberg, there's not a single person Gutenberg, there's not a single person listening who still copies manuscripts listening who still copies manuscripts listening who still copies manuscripts by hand with scribes, right? Like, it's by hand with scribes, right? Like, it's by hand with scribes, right? Like, it's Kevin Kelly's phrase. There some of this Kevin Kelly's phrase. There some of this Kevin Kelly's phrase. There some of this stuff's inevitable. It's just how we're stuff's inevitable. It's just how we're stuff's inevitable. It's just how we're all going to be one day. And all going to be one day. And all going to be one day. And inevitably, most people get swept up by inevitably, most people get swept up by inevitably, most people get swept up by a technological innovation. Similarly, I a technological innovation. Similarly, I a technological innovation. Similarly, I don't think there's anybody riding by don't think there's anybody riding by don't think there's anybody riding by horseback, even if you're Methodist, uh, horseback, even if you're Methodist, uh, horseback, even if you're Methodist, uh, from church to church on a Sunday from church to church on a Sunday from church to church on a Sunday morning anymore, right? Uh, it does morning anymore, right? Uh, it does morning anymore, right? Uh, it does catch up with us. So, you've got an catch up with us. So, you've got an catch up with us. So, you've got an experience as a tech founder. experience as a tech founder. experience as a tech founder. Um, how has that shaped your perspective Um, how has that shaped your perspective Um, how has that shaped your perspective on leveraging on leveraging on leveraging resources and new resources for the resources and new resources for the resources and new resources for the kingdom, tech resources? kingdom, tech resources? kingdom, tech resources? Well, in a sense, you know, like you, Well, in a sense, you know, like you, Well, in a sense, you know, like you, Carey, I'm probably Carey, I'm probably Carey, I'm probably curiouser, you know, on the spectrum curiouser, you know, on the spectrum curiouser, you know, on the spectrum more early adopter, you know, looking at more early adopter, you know, looking at more early adopter, you know, looking at what's new, what's out there on the what's new, what's out there on the what's new, what's out there on the horizon. And just my weird lens is horizon. And just my weird lens is horizon. And just my weird lens is always, when I see a new technology, always, when I see a new technology, always, when I see a new technology, I'm I'm asking the question, how could I'm I'm asking the question, how could I'm I'm asking the question, how could this be applied to ministry?

this be applied to ministry? this be applied to ministry? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But then the hard work really starts But then the hard work really starts But then the hard work really starts because then you're turning then to because then you're turning then to because then you're turning then to those who are really those who are really those who are really leading or operating in in vocational leading or operating in in vocational leading or operating in in vocational ministry often and trying to convince ministry often and trying to convince ministry often and trying to convince them or trying to show them, "Hey, this them or trying to show them, "Hey, this them or trying to show them, "Hey, this is a really big deal. You should pay is a really big deal. You should pay is a really big deal. You should pay attention to it." So, there's a little attention to it." So, there's a little attention to it." So, there's a little bit of um I don't know, not I not bit of um I don't know, not I not bit of um I don't know, not I not prophetic, but like almost Pied Piper prophetic, but like almost Pied Piper prophetic, but like almost Pied Piper um sense in um sense in um sense in those who see the possibility those who see the possibility those who see the possibility and then have to translate it into those and then have to translate it into those and then have to translate it into those who are actually doing. who are actually doing. who are actually doing. And so, through my companies and And so, through my companies and And so, through my companies and experiences I've had, um I I have experiences I've had, um I I have experiences I've had, um I I have rhythms like I I try to be with one to rhythms like I I try to be with one to rhythms like I I try to be with one to two pastors a week minimum two pastors a week minimum two pastors a week minimum and and and ask a lot of questions, be in their ask a lot of questions, be in their ask a lot of questions, be in their world, be curious, world, be curious, world, be curious, but also but also but also maybe try to connect dots, you know, I maybe try to connect dots, you know, I maybe try to connect dots, you know, I see a cool technology, I see something see a cool technology, I see something see a cool technology, I see something possible possible possible and and try to essentially just be a and and try to essentially just be a and and try to essentially just be a translation engine translation engine translation engine to them and in the process to them and in the process to them and in the process that can look like starting a company, that can look like starting a company, that can look like starting a company, it can look like being a great ministry.

it can look like being a great ministry. it can look like being a great ministry. Um I've I've kind of operated in a lot Um I've I've kind of operated in a lot Um I've I've kind of operated in a lot of different contexts there. of different contexts there. of different contexts there. Um Um Um it's fun for me when I get a call from a it's fun for me when I get a call from a it's fun for me when I get a call from a pastor who says, "You know, you told me pastor who says, "You know, you told me pastor who says, "You know, you told me about this 2 years ago and I finally got about this 2 years ago and I finally got about this 2 years ago and I finally got a chance to try it out." I a chance to try it out." I a chance to try it out." I By the way, one last point on the elder By the way, one last point on the elder By the way, one last point on the elder board thing, you should always have board thing, you should always have board thing, you should always have someone in your circle, either on that someone in your circle, either on that someone in your circle, either on that leadership team or maybe on your staff, leadership team or maybe on your staff, leadership team or maybe on your staff, who makes you a little uncomfortable who makes you a little uncomfortable who makes you a little uncomfortable maybe about trying new things. I think maybe about trying new things. I think maybe about trying new things. I think it's a good healthy practice to have it's a good healthy practice to have it's a good healthy practice to have someone who's you know, maybe you take someone who's you know, maybe you take someone who's you know, maybe you take 10% of their ideas. But I think that's a 10% of their ideas. But I think that's a 10% of their ideas. But I think that's a good practice and that that might be a good practice and that that might be a good practice and that that might be a next gen next gen next gen leader that you have close to you. leader that you have close to you. leader that you have close to you. Um so sometimes I'm I'm that guy to Um so sometimes I'm I'm that guy to Um so sometimes I'm I'm that guy to pastors I talk to and pastors I know. pastors I talk to and pastors I know. pastors I talk to and pastors I know. Mhm. So before you joined Glue, you were Mhm. So before you joined Glue, you were Mhm. So before you joined Glue, you were the president at Ministry Brands for a the president at Ministry Brands for a the president at Ministry Brands for a number of years. What was the idea What number of years. What was the idea What number of years. What was the idea What was the idea behind Ministry Brands? was the idea behind Ministry Brands? was the idea behind Ministry Brands? Yeah, so Ministry Brands actually got Yeah, so Ministry Brands actually got Yeah, so Ministry Brands actually got its start with um on a single day three its start with um on a single day three its start with um on a single day three small tech companies got together. One small tech companies got together. One small tech companies got together. One of which was mine uh called Cyber of which was mine uh called Cyber of which was mine uh called Cyber Organic which was a church website Organic which was a church website Organic which was a church website company.

company. company. And the other two were just starting And the other two were just starting And the other two were just starting this weird world of online giving and this weird world of online giving and this weird world of online giving and tithing and payments. And the simple tithing and payments. And the simple tithing and payments. And the simple idea at the beginning was nothing more idea at the beginning was nothing more idea at the beginning was nothing more Carey than hey, wouldn't it be Carey than hey, wouldn't it be Carey than hey, wouldn't it be interesting if we could help a church interesting if we could help a church interesting if we could help a church with a website and online giving with a website and online giving with a website and online giving together and kind of bundle that save together and kind of bundle that save together and kind of bundle that save them time. them time. them time. Innovation. Yeah. Innovation. Yeah. Innovation. Yeah. Right. And um so it's a very I would say Right. And um so it's a very I would say Right. And um so it's a very I would say simple humble beginning. This was 2012. simple humble beginning. This was 2012. simple humble beginning. This was 2012. And through the next several years, we And through the next several years, we And through the next several years, we found opportunities to add more to the found opportunities to add more to the found opportunities to add more to the basket if you will. So websites, yes. basket if you will. So websites, yes. basket if you will. So websites, yes. Online giving, yes. Online giving, yes. Online giving, yes. Also things though like mobile apps Also things though like mobile apps Also things though like mobile apps um background checks for children's um background checks for children's um background checks for children's volunteers and workers. volunteers and workers. volunteers and workers. Uh then looking at streaming Uh then looking at streaming Uh then looking at streaming uh financial accounting. uh financial accounting. uh financial accounting. And one of the things that Ministry And one of the things that Ministry And one of the things that Ministry Brands did in those early days to you Brands did in those early days to you Brands did in those early days to you know, we kind of had every every moment know, we kind of had every every moment know, we kind of had every every moment a decision, do we build it or do do we a decision, do we build it or do do we a decision, do we build it or do do we find someone who's already doing it? find someone who's already doing it? find someone who's already doing it? And maybe buy or acquire them. And And maybe buy or acquire them. And And maybe buy or acquire them. And Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm. Ministry Brands perhaps is better known Ministry Brands perhaps is better known Ministry Brands perhaps is better known for really ushering in a pretty major for really ushering in a pretty major for really ushering in a pretty major wave of acquisitions in the church tech wave of acquisitions in the church tech wave of acquisitions in the church tech space. space. space. Um and that was a little bit unsettling, Um and that was a little bit unsettling, Um and that was a little bit unsettling, I think, to some cuz we all of us in I think, to some cuz we all of us in I think, to some cuz we all of us in this church space really haven't seen this church space really haven't seen this church space really haven't seen that kind of acquisitive activity. that kind of acquisitive activity. that kind of acquisitive activity. But what it did allow Ministry Brands to But what it did allow Ministry Brands to But what it did allow Ministry Brands to do was number one, scale rapidly, do was number one, scale rapidly, do was number one, scale rapidly, and also have a degree of resourcing to and also have a degree of resourcing to and also have a degree of resourcing to serve, you know, when I left in 2018, we serve, you know, when I left in 2018, we serve, you know, when I left in 2018, we were at about 50,000 churches. I think were at about 50,000 churches. I think were at about 50,000 churches. I think they've climbed quite a bit since then. they've climbed quite a bit since then. they've climbed quite a bit since then. Um Um Um Uh but, you know, having that scale to Uh but, you know, having that scale to Uh but, you know, having that scale to be not quite a one-stop shop, but a a be not quite a one-stop shop, but a a be not quite a one-stop shop, but a a more unified uh set of services. more unified uh set of services. more unified uh set of services. We we heard at the time a lot of pastors We we heard at the time a lot of pastors We we heard at the time a lot of pastors saying things like, saying things like, saying things like, "You know what I don't need is one more "You know what I don't need is one more "You know what I don't need is one more tech tool. I I'm managing like 10, 12, tech tool. I I'm managing like 10, 12, tech tool. I I'm managing like 10, 12, 15 15 15 different SaaS tools, and I pay different SaaS tools, and I pay different SaaS tools, and I pay subscriptions, and my data doesn't work, subscriptions, and my data doesn't work, subscriptions, and my data doesn't work, and and and so we were, you know, seeking to solve a so we were, you know, seeking to solve a so we were, you know, seeking to solve a lot of that.

lot of that. lot of that. I would also say that we bumped into a I would also say that we bumped into a I would also say that we bumped into a lot of challenges, you know, when you lot of challenges, you know, when you lot of challenges, you know, when you scale that quickly. scale that quickly. scale that quickly. Um I I personally presided over 43 Um I I personally presided over 43 Um I I personally presided over 43 acquisitions during the time I was at acquisitions during the time I was at acquisitions during the time I was at Ministry Brands. Ministry Brands. Ministry Brands. In 6 years. In 6 years. In 6 years. In 6 years. In 6 years. In 6 years. Yeah, it's a lot. Um Yeah, it's a lot. Um Yeah, it's a lot. Um I think our I think our I think our I think our high-water month we might I think our high-water month we might I think our high-water month we might have done five five acquisitions in one have done five five acquisitions in one have done five five acquisitions in one one month. one month. one month. Wow. Wow. Wow. So, a lot of interesting leadership So, a lot of interesting leadership So, a lot of interesting leadership lessons there with culture and systems lessons there with culture and systems lessons there with culture and systems and whatnot, but um and whatnot, but um and whatnot, but um you know, nonetheless, I think we we you know, nonetheless, I think we we you know, nonetheless, I think we we learned a lot of good lessons there learned a lot of good lessons there learned a lot of good lessons there about uh both scale, and I would say about uh both scale, and I would say about uh both scale, and I would say also the importance of aligned capital. also the importance of aligned capital. also the importance of aligned capital. You know, making sure that as a company You know, making sure that as a company You know, making sure that as a company grows, these are for-profit companies grows, these are for-profit companies grows, these are for-profit companies that serve churches. that serve churches. that serve churches. You know, how do you ensure that You know, how do you ensure that You know, how do you ensure that the mission stays pure, that the mission the mission stays pure, that the mission the mission stays pure, that the mission and the money are aligned? and the money are aligned? and the money are aligned? And all those lessons, I think, were And all those lessons, I think, were And all those lessons, I think, were really um you know, played out in a in a really um you know, played out in a in a really um you know, played out in a in a great way at Ministry Brands. great way at Ministry Brands. great way at Ministry Brands. And I carried a lot of those great And I carried a lot of those great And I carried a lot of those great lessons with me, you know, onto lessons with me, you know, onto lessons with me, you know, onto ServiceGlue and beyond.

ServiceGlue and beyond. ServiceGlue and beyond. Yeah. What were some of the lessons Yeah. What were some of the lessons Yeah. What were some of the lessons about rapid scale that you learned about rapid scale that you learned about rapid scale that you learned because that is that was I remember because that is that was I remember because that is that was I remember watching it in real time a meteoric rise watching it in real time a meteoric rise watching it in real time a meteoric rise for Ministry Brands. It's like who are for Ministry Brands. It's like who are for Ministry Brands. It's like who are you to they're everywhere. you to they're everywhere. you to they're everywhere. Right. Right. Right. Well, I think um you can you can fake it Well, I think um you can you can fake it Well, I think um you can you can fake it for a period of time and and so what I for a period of time and and so what I for a period of time and and so what I mean by that is we were doing a lot of mean by that is we were doing a lot of mean by that is we were doing a lot of these deals and what was what was great, these deals and what was what was great, these deals and what was what was great, Terry, was we were Terry, was we were Terry, was we were we were normally acquiring companies we were normally acquiring companies we were normally acquiring companies that were serving churches had been that were serving churches had been that were serving churches had been founded by people that had a a passion founded by people that had a a passion founded by people that had a a passion just like I had when I started my church just like I had when I started my church just like I had when I started my church website business. website business. website business. So, I could sit across the table from So, I could sit across the table from So, I could sit across the table from this founder and talk about the kingdom this founder and talk about the kingdom this founder and talk about the kingdom expansion possibilities of their company expansion possibilities of their company expansion possibilities of their company joining this big thing called Ministry joining this big thing called Ministry joining this big thing called Ministry Brands. And we in many cases kept those Brands. And we in many cases kept those Brands. And we in many cases kept those founders on. founders on. founders on. Um Um Um and we were able to do that quickly and and we were able to do that quickly and and we were able to do that quickly and to an extent rest on the fact that to an extent rest on the fact that to an extent rest on the fact that because that founder was still here, because that founder was still here, because that founder was still here, they knew their business. We didn't have they knew their business. We didn't have they knew their business. We didn't have to rush to learn all the nooks and to rush to learn all the nooks and to rush to learn all the nooks and crannies of what they were doing. We crannies of what they were doing. We crannies of what they were doing. We could could could kind of you know, bring them in, find kind of you know, bring them in, find kind of you know, bring them in, find what what we call synergies.

what what we call synergies. what what we call synergies. Um you know, and not have to do a full Um you know, and not have to do a full Um you know, and not have to do a full integration overnight. integration overnight. integration overnight. And you could do that with the first And you could do that with the first And you could do that with the first five, six, maybe 10 five, six, maybe 10 five, six, maybe 10 companies, but as you grow past that, companies, but as you grow past that, companies, but as you grow past that, the the ability to have I'll just speak the the ability to have I'll just speak the the ability to have I'll just speak very practically, like the ability to very practically, like the ability to very practically, like the ability to have 12 or 20 different accounting have 12 or 20 different accounting have 12 or 20 different accounting systems. That like that doesn't work. systems. That like that doesn't work. systems. That like that doesn't work. Um you know, we were dealing with things Um you know, we were dealing with things Um you know, we were dealing with things as mundane as phone systems to employee as mundane as phone systems to employee as mundane as phone systems to employee benefits and just a lot of benefits and just a lot of benefits and just a lot of really basic, but super critical issues really basic, but super critical issues really basic, but super critical issues uh that only kept snowballing as we uh that only kept snowballing as we uh that only kept snowballing as we acquired more things. So, I think one of acquired more things. So, I think one of acquired more things. So, I think one of the big lessons there was for us to have the big lessons there was for us to have the big lessons there was for us to have a playbook. a playbook. a playbook. And to have a clear process and have And to have a clear process and have And to have a clear process and have leaders dedicated to just what's called leaders dedicated to just what's called leaders dedicated to just what's called post-merger integration, PMI. post-merger integration, PMI. post-merger integration, PMI. So, that you know, Ministry Brands or So, that you know, Ministry Brands or So, that you know, Ministry Brands or whoever is doing the acquiring whoever is doing the acquiring whoever is doing the acquiring understands and can communicate understands and can communicate understands and can communicate "Welcome in. Here's Here's why we're "Welcome in. Here's Here's why we're "Welcome in. Here's Here's why we're excited to have you join what we're excited to have you join what we're excited to have you join what we're doing, and here's what the first 30 doing, and here's what the first 30 doing, and here's what the first 30 days, 60, 90, 100 days are going to look days, 60, 90, 100 days are going to look days, 60, 90, 100 days are going to look like.

like. like. Um and on the other side of it, here's Um and on the other side of it, here's Um and on the other side of it, here's where we hope to get." where we hope to get." where we hope to get." It took us a while to develop that type It took us a while to develop that type It took us a while to develop that type of rigor. of rigor. of rigor. Um you know, we we got there and and Um you know, we we got there and and Um you know, we we got there and and even now at Gloo, we're doing some of even now at Gloo, we're doing some of even now at Gloo, we're doing some of the same as Gloo begins to find the same as Gloo begins to find the same as Gloo begins to find opportunities to bring other brands in. opportunities to bring other brands in. opportunities to bring other brands in. So, um it's a whole discipline though to So, um it's a whole discipline though to So, um it's a whole discipline though to just understand the the world of just understand the the world of just understand the the world of mergers, acquisitions, and some of the mergers, acquisitions, and some of the mergers, acquisitions, and some of the stats are sobering, you know, there's stats are sobering, you know, there's stats are sobering, you know, there's I read one stat that was as many as 75 I read one stat that was as many as 75 I read one stat that was as many as 75 to 80% of acquisitions fail. to 80% of acquisitions fail. to 80% of acquisitions fail. Um and the number one reason for that is Um and the number one reason for that is Um and the number one reason for that is culture. culture. culture. Yep. Yep. Yep. As you're bringing teams in, um just how As you're bringing teams in, um just how As you're bringing teams in, um just how are you thinking about the people side are you thinking about the people side are you thinking about the people side of things. So, of things. So, of things. So, it was a it was an MBA for sure in six it was a it was an MBA for sure in six it was a it was an MBA for sure in six short years. short years. short years. Well, and those are great field notes Well, and those are great field notes Well, and those are great field notes for churches. I got a question today for churches. I got a question today for churches. I got a question today about someone wanting to acquire another about someone wanting to acquire another about someone wanting to acquire another church, right? When you think about church, right? When you think about church, right? When you think about church mergers, and that's the stuff church mergers, and that's the stuff church mergers, and that's the stuff nobody thinks of. The systems, the nobody thinks of. The systems, the nobody thinks of. The systems, the accounting, the the whole back end, the accounting, the the whole back end, the accounting, the the whole back end, the culture. And not all the mergers work in culture. And not all the mergers work in culture. And not all the mergers work in church world either. So, those are those church world either. So, those are those church world either. So, those are those are really good field notes. So, you're are really good field notes. So, you're are really good field notes. So, you're at Gloo these days. Can you just explain at Gloo these days. Can you just explain at Gloo these days. Can you just explain I mean, Gloo's been a partner on this I mean, Gloo's been a partner on this I mean, Gloo's been a partner on this podcast. That's not why you're here. I podcast. That's not why you're here. I podcast. That's not why you're here. I wanted to pick your brain on a lot of wanted to pick your brain on a lot of wanted to pick your brain on a lot of things, but what exactly does Gloo do?

things, but what exactly does Gloo do? things, but what exactly does Gloo do? Sure. Well, I mean, in a nutshell, Gloo Sure. Well, I mean, in a nutshell, Gloo Sure. Well, I mean, in a nutshell, Gloo is a tech platform. is a tech platform. is a tech platform. And we've got about 150 folks uh working And we've got about 150 folks uh working And we've got about 150 folks uh working on our on our team. Our our headquarters on our on our team. Our our headquarters on our on our team. Our our headquarters is in Boulder, Colorado. is in Boulder, Colorado. is in Boulder, Colorado. Um but the tech platform that we're Um but the tech platform that we're Um but the tech platform that we're building, Carey, is is really designed building, Carey, is is really designed building, Carey, is is really designed around a very big mission. And what what around a very big mission. And what what around a very big mission. And what what that simply means is we want to connect that simply means is we want to connect that simply means is we want to connect the church and we see a need for that the church and we see a need for that the church and we see a need for that because because because um the church is actually rich in um the church is actually rich in um the church is actually rich in resources. God's put a lot of abundance resources. God's put a lot of abundance resources. God's put a lot of abundance in lots of places, but it's in lots of places, but it's in lots of places, but it's somewhat siloed today just in the way we somewhat siloed today just in the way we somewhat siloed today just in the way we quote do church. quote do church. quote do church. And so Glue um thinks of ourselves And so Glue um thinks of ourselves And so Glue um thinks of ourselves really as a a set of infrastructure. You really as a a set of infrastructure. You really as a a set of infrastructure. You can almost think of it like the plumbing can almost think of it like the plumbing can almost think of it like the plumbing underground a city underground a city underground a city uh or under the ground in a city. And uh or under the ground in a city. And uh or under the ground in a city. And things flow through the pipes, right? things flow through the pipes, right? things flow through the pipes, right? And so for Glue, we think of And so for Glue, we think of And so for Glue, we think of four primary things that kind of get four primary things that kind of get four primary things that kind of get exchanged through the pipes of Glue. exchanged through the pipes of Glue. exchanged through the pipes of Glue. Real quickly, it's it's resources. So, Real quickly, it's it's resources. So, Real quickly, it's it's resources. So, leaders on Glue get access to great leaders on Glue get access to great leaders on Glue get access to great resources such as, for example, Carey resources such as, for example, Carey resources such as, for example, Carey Nieuwhof courses or Nieuwhof courses or Nieuwhof courses or prayer series, um apps and content and a prayer series, um apps and content and a prayer series, um apps and content and a whole range of resources. Those get whole range of resources. Those get whole range of resources. Those get exchanged. Um a second would be people.

exchanged. Um a second would be people. exchanged. Um a second would be people. And um you know, we've we've talked you And um you know, we've we've talked you And um you know, we've we've talked you and I have talked a lot about what and I have talked a lot about what and I have talked a lot about what patterns we're seeing around outreach patterns we're seeing around outreach patterns we're seeing around outreach and and and church growth and evangelism, but you church growth and evangelism, but you church growth and evangelism, but you know, Glue is now supporting dozens and know, Glue is now supporting dozens and know, Glue is now supporting dozens and dozens of campaigns and events and media dozens of campaigns and events and media dozens of campaigns and events and media uh ministries that are finding people uh ministries that are finding people uh ministries that are finding people but have little to no place to send but have little to no place to send but have little to no place to send them. them. them. Meanwhile, you have churches that would Meanwhile, you have churches that would Meanwhile, you have churches that would love to have new people coming through. love to have new people coming through. love to have new people coming through. There's a need for connection there, There's a need for connection there, There's a need for connection there, right? So, Glue is sitting in between right? So, Glue is sitting in between right? So, Glue is sitting in between the people connection side. We call them the people connection side. We call them the people connection side. We call them explorers. explorers. explorers. Um so, you have resources, you have Um so, you have resources, you have Um so, you have resources, you have people. We also think about data and people. We also think about data and people. We also think about data and insights. How can leaders be better insights. How can leaders be better insights. How can leaders be better informed informed informed and understand what's happening in their and understand what's happening in their and understand what's happening in their people, understand what's happening in people, understand what's happening in people, understand what's happening in their community, maybe in their their community, maybe in their their community, maybe in their networks. networks. networks. Um so, we're doing a lot of work and Um so, we're doing a lot of work and Um so, we're doing a lot of work and that's especially central to our work that's especially central to our work that's especially central to our work with the Barna Group with the Barna Group with the Barna Group and something we're planning next year, and something we're planning next year, and something we're planning next year, the state of the church 2025. the state of the church 2025. the state of the church 2025. And then the final interesting fourth And then the final interesting fourth And then the final interesting fourth leg of the stool is funding. leg of the stool is funding. leg of the stool is funding. And we've been seeing a lot of patterns And we've been seeing a lot of patterns And we've been seeing a lot of patterns Carey with and this is I'm not talking Carey with and this is I'm not talking Carey with and this is I'm not talking about uh church giving or tithing about uh church giving or tithing about uh church giving or tithing necessarily, uh but more about just how necessarily, uh but more about just how necessarily, uh but more about just how money flows through the Christian money flows through the Christian money flows through the Christian ecosystem, if you will.

ecosystem, if you will. ecosystem, if you will. Um only about 20 to 30% of Christian Um only about 20 to 30% of Christian Um only about 20 to 30% of Christian giving actually goes through a local giving actually goes through a local giving actually goes through a local church. church. church. Um which was really interesting. So, far Um which was really interesting. So, far Um which was really interesting. So, far more capital actually goes to direct more capital actually goes to direct more capital actually goes to direct donations to parachurch donations to parachurch donations to parachurch or other types of generosity that or other types of generosity that or other types of generosity that doesn't hit an offering plate. doesn't hit an offering plate. doesn't hit an offering plate. Um but there's a lot of latent capital. Um but there's a lot of latent capital. Um but there's a lot of latent capital. There's a lot of money and you've had There's a lot of money and you've had There's a lot of money and you've had some guests on your show before who are some guests on your show before who are some guests on your show before who are are great on this, but there's a lot of are great on this, but there's a lot of are great on this, but there's a lot of money sitting that's already kind of money sitting that's already kind of money sitting that's already kind of earmarked for nonprofit, faith-oriented earmarked for nonprofit, faith-oriented earmarked for nonprofit, faith-oriented giving, but it's not moving. giving, but it's not moving. giving, but it's not moving. Through donor-advised funds, et cetera, Through donor-advised funds, et cetera, Through donor-advised funds, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. et cetera. Yeah. et cetera. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, so a lot of money That's right. Yeah, so a lot of money That's right. Yeah, so a lot of money sits apart. So, um so Glue, what we see sits apart. So, um so Glue, what we see sits apart. So, um so Glue, what we see is an opportunity is an opportunity is an opportunity and we we've heard patterns from donors and we we've heard patterns from donors and we we've heard patterns from donors of why that money maybe doesn't move, of why that money maybe doesn't move, of why that money maybe doesn't move, and we see some opportunities and in and we see some opportunities and in and we see some opportunities and in fact, we've already fact, we've already fact, we've already been prototyping some concepts that are been prototyping some concepts that are been prototyping some concepts that are in fact animating capital that was in fact animating capital that was in fact animating capital that was sitting still. So, sitting still. So, sitting still. So, so that's a fourth exchange. You have so that's a fourth exchange. You have so that's a fourth exchange. You have resources, people, data, funding.

resources, people, data, funding. resources, people, data, funding. And all those things kind of are, And all those things kind of are, And all those things kind of are, you know, the pipes we're building are you know, the pipes we're building are you know, the pipes we're building are oriented to help those connect. oriented to help those connect. oriented to help those connect. So, that's the big idea. There's there's So, that's the big idea. There's there's So, that's the big idea. There's there's simple practical things that pastors use simple practical things that pastors use simple practical things that pastors use Glue for. We have about 73,000 churches Glue for. We have about 73,000 churches Glue for. We have about 73,000 churches today today today um on the platform. um on the platform. um on the platform. Uh but we we serve every entity that's Uh but we we serve every entity that's Uh but we we serve every entity that's in any part of the church. in any part of the church. in any part of the church. Uh you guys are a a great partner with Uh you guys are a a great partner with Uh you guys are a a great partner with us, Carey, but there's many others. us, Carey, but there's many others. us, Carey, but there's many others. Um so, it's a it's a big vision that Um so, it's a it's a big vision that Um so, it's a it's a big vision that we've that we're trying to chase. we've that we're trying to chase. we've that we're trying to chase. Yeah, what's interesting, you know, cuz Yeah, what's interesting, you know, cuz Yeah, what's interesting, you know, cuz you talk to a lot of people about Glue you talk to a lot of people about Glue you talk to a lot of people about Glue and and the mystery the the mission is a and and the mystery the the mission is a and and the mystery the the mission is a mystery. But, I think what I appreciate mystery. But, I think what I appreciate mystery. But, I think what I appreciate about it from my conversations with you, about it from my conversations with you, about it from my conversations with you, Scott, and other Scott back that is and Scott, and other Scott back that is and Scott, and other Scott back that is and other members of the team is, if you other members of the team is, if you other members of the team is, if you think about the way the church has think about the way the church has think about the way the church has evolved, it was kind of a individual evolved, it was kind of a individual evolved, it was kind of a individual sport. You came in with your sport. You came in with your sport. You came in with your denomination or your congregationalist denomination or your congregationalist denomination or your congregationalist church. And there was good reason. I church. And there was good reason. I church. And there was good reason. I mean, you had your community to reach. mean, you had your community to reach. mean, you had your community to reach. That was about everybody that you had in That was about everybody that you had in That was about everybody that you had in your scope. And then as communication your scope. And then as communication your scope. And then as communication increased, you know, broadcasting, we increased, you know, broadcasting, we increased, you know, broadcasting, we got ideas from other places. We get on got ideas from other places. We get on got ideas from other places. We get on airplanes and fly to conferences. And airplanes and fly to conferences. And airplanes and fly to conferences. And then denominations started to break then denominations started to break then denominations started to break down. And yet parachurch organizations, down. And yet parachurch organizations, down. And yet parachurch organizations, kind of nonprofits, rise up and sort of kind of nonprofits, rise up and sort of kind of nonprofits, rise up and sort of unite people who are not normally unite people who are not normally unite people who are not normally united. But organizations like Promise united. But organizations like Promise united. But organizations like Promise Keepers came and they went. And now you Keepers came and they went. And now you Keepers came and they went. And now you see a lot of little startups and see a lot of little startups and see a lot of little startups and initiatives and local church networks initiatives and local church networks initiatives and local church networks and this and that and mission and this and that and mission and this and that and mission organizations. But there's nothing organizations. But there's nothing organizations. But there's nothing pulling the whole thing together. And in

pulling the whole thing together. And in pulling the whole thing together. And in some ways you're seeing organizations some ways you're seeing organizations some ways you're seeing organizations that served a historic purpose die. But that served a historic purpose die. But that served a historic purpose die. But there's nothing really connecting there's nothing really connecting there's nothing really connecting everybody. And that's that's sort of the everybody. And that's that's sort of the everybody. And that's that's sort of the vision as I see it behind Glue. Is that vision as I see it behind Glue. Is that vision as I see it behind Glue. Is that right? right? right? Yeah, you you nailed it, Carey. I mean I Yeah, you you nailed it, Carey. I mean I Yeah, you you nailed it, Carey. I mean I Yeah, in fact, I love that use the Yeah, in fact, I love that use the Yeah, in fact, I love that use the phrase individual sport. I You know, one phrase individual sport. I You know, one phrase individual sport. I You know, one of the things I talk on sometimes is of the things I talk on sometimes is of the things I talk on sometimes is that ministry, really God designed that ministry, really God designed that ministry, really God designed ministry to be a team sport. ministry to be a team sport. ministry to be a team sport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you know, there's so many Um you know, there's so many Um you know, there's so many uh so many articulations in the New uh so many articulations in the New uh so many articulations in the New Testament especially about the body of Testament especially about the body of Testament especially about the body of Christ and the different roles that we Christ and the different roles that we Christ and the different roles that we all have. And any local church, you all have. And any local church, you all have. And any local church, you know, even the biggest, like you said, know, even the biggest, like you said, know, even the biggest, like you said, Life Church, all the way down to the Life Church, all the way down to the Life Church, all the way down to the normal size churches, normal size churches, normal size churches, Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. um can't by definition can't be all um can't by definition can't be all um can't by definition can't be all things to all people. things to all people. things to all people. Um and and yet we just we lack some of Um and and yet we just we lack some of Um and and yet we just we lack some of those important structures and I would those important structures and I would those important structures and I would argue resources and mindsets to um kind argue resources and mindsets to um kind argue resources and mindsets to um kind of live in our lane, bring in those of live in our lane, bring in those of live in our lane, bring in those other ministries and partners that have other ministries and partners that have other ministries and partners that have competencies in other lanes so we can competencies in other lanes so we can competencies in other lanes so we can serve the whole person. And we've seen serve the whole person. And we've seen serve the whole person. And we've seen this play out in many other industries this play out in many other industries this play out in many other industries over decades and centuries even. You over decades and centuries even. You over decades and centuries even. You know, airlines used to be know, airlines used to be know, airlines used to be all have their own reservation systems all have their own reservation systems all have their own reservation systems and now there's a pretty centralized and now there's a pretty centralized and now there's a pretty centralized service for that. Healthcare was all service for that. Healthcare was all service for that. Healthcare was all over the map. There was no common over the map. There was no common over the map. There was no common measurement of blood pressure or measurement of blood pressure or measurement of blood pressure or HIPAA records and now HIPAA records and now HIPAA records and now you know, it's sometimes painful. You're you know, it's sometimes painful. You're you know, it's sometimes painful. You're in Canada, so I don't know you guys have in Canada, so I don't know you guys have in Canada, so I don't know you guys have a different model, but a different model, but a different model, but We have our We have our own system that We have our We have our own system that We have our We have our own system that everybody thinks is falling apart, but

everybody thinks is falling apart, but everybody thinks is falling apart, but anyway. Yeah. anyway. Yeah. anyway. Yeah. You do get seen and and I'm alive, which You do get seen and and I'm alive, which You do get seen and and I'm alive, which is good. But you know what? It's same is good. But you know what? It's same is good. But you know what? It's same thing like car dealers. My oldest son's thing like car dealers. My oldest son's thing like car dealers. My oldest son's a coder, you know Jordan, and um a coder, you know Jordan, and um a coder, you know Jordan, and um one of his projects when he was one of his projects when he was one of his projects when he was graduating from university was to work graduating from university was to work graduating from university was to work on the system that every dealer in North on the system that every dealer in North on the system that every dealer in North America, maybe the world, uses when you America, maybe the world, uses when you America, maybe the world, uses when you buy or lease a new car. It's just like buy or lease a new car. It's just like buy or lease a new car. It's just like GM uses the same software as Audi does GM uses the same software as Audi does GM uses the same software as Audi does and it's serviced by a central company. and it's serviced by a central company. and it's serviced by a central company. And you know, I remember and I I this is And you know, I remember and I I this is And you know, I remember and I I this is going somewhere. This is a little bit of going somewhere. This is a little bit of going somewhere. This is a little bit of history to get us into the future. history to get us into the future. history to get us into the future. But like I remember sitting down in my But like I remember sitting down in my But like I remember sitting down in my office 20 years ago trying to write a office 20 years ago trying to write a office 20 years ago trying to write a mission and vision statement and it's mission and vision statement and it's mission and vision statement and it's hard, man, from scratch pulling words hard, man, from scratch pulling words hard, man, from scratch pulling words out of the air. And I was following out of the air. And I was following out of the air. And I was following Willow at the time. I heard about Willow at the time. I heard about Willow at the time. I heard about Northpoint and then I heard about Northpoint and then I heard about Northpoint and then I heard about Northpoint's vision and mission and I Northpoint's vision and mission and I Northpoint's vision and mission and I thought that is better than I could thought that is better than I could thought that is better than I could articulate it. Within a couple of years articulate it. Within a couple of years articulate it. Within a couple of years we're Northpoint strategic partner. It's we're Northpoint strategic partner. It's we're Northpoint strategic partner. It's like, oh, that whole framework is now like, oh, that whole framework is now like, oh, that whole framework is now done for me. So I can focus we were so done for me. So I can focus we were so done for me. So I can focus we were so close. It was like a little bit of close. It was like a little bit of close. It was like a little bit of etymology here and there. And then, etymology here and there. And then, etymology here and there. And then, okay, now I can focus on leading the okay, now I can focus on leading the okay, now I can focus on leading the local church. And I wonder, you know, local church. And I wonder, you know, local church. And I wonder, you know, because it was an individual sport, a because it was an individual sport, a because it was an individual sport, a solo sport, uh whether that cooperation solo sport, uh whether that cooperation solo sport, uh whether that cooperation has to be a bigger part of the future, has to be a bigger part of the future, has to be a bigger part of the future, particularly as America becomes more particularly as America becomes more particularly as America becomes more Christian. So, let's switch gears a Christian. So, let's switch gears a Christian. So, let's switch gears a little bit little bit little bit because this is getting to tech and AI.

because this is getting to tech and AI. because this is getting to tech and AI. I You know, you identified something I You know, you identified something I You know, you identified something earlier that I think is really earlier that I think is really earlier that I think is really interesting. interesting. interesting. Most people are like, I don't even know Most people are like, I don't even know Most people are like, I don't even know how many subscriptions I have, right? I how many subscriptions I have, right? I how many subscriptions I have, right? I have Netflix and then I have some sports have Netflix and then I have some sports have Netflix and then I have some sports channel and then I got, you know, this channel and then I got, you know, this channel and then I got, you know, this and that and the other thing and I got and that and the other thing and I got and that and the other thing and I got these apps that I pay etc. So, you know, these apps that I pay etc. So, you know, these apps that I pay etc. So, you know, people have you know, we went from cable people have you know, we went from cable people have you know, we went from cable which was one bill a month to all this which was one bill a month to all this which was one bill a month to all this fractionalization. And I think maybe fractionalization. And I think maybe fractionalization. And I think maybe that's an unlocking the value customer that's an unlocking the value customer that's an unlocking the value customer value chain. I can't remember if whether value chain. I can't remember if whether value chain. I can't remember if whether it was a book that you and Scott gave me it was a book that you and Scott gave me it was a book that you and Scott gave me to read or not. to read or not. to read or not. But, if you look at history, it's But, if you look at history, it's But, if you look at history, it's bundling, unbundling, bundling, bundling, unbundling, bundling, bundling, unbundling, bundling, unbundling. You know, unbundling was unbundling. You know, unbundling was unbundling. You know, unbundling was um over-the-year TV. We have multiple um over-the-year TV. We have multiple um over-the-year TV. We have multiple networks. You just put your antenna up. networks. You just put your antenna up. networks. You just put your antenna up. Then cable bundled everything together Then cable bundled everything together Then cable bundled everything together so you can get all kinds of channels. so you can get all kinds of channels. so you can get all kinds of channels. The internet unbundled everything. Now The internet unbundled everything. Now The internet unbundled everything. Now you're getting back into bundling so you're getting back into bundling so you're getting back into bundling so that if you get Disney Plus, you also that if you get Disney Plus, you also that if you get Disney Plus, you also get and then you get and then you get get and then you get and then you get get and then you get and then you get etc. And I probably think we'll see more etc. And I probably think we'll see more etc. And I probably think we'll see more bundling. bundling. bundling. When it comes to tech and AI, are we in When it comes to tech and AI, are we in When it comes to tech and AI, are we in an unbundling stage that may go to more an unbundling stage that may go to more an unbundling stage that may go to more bundling? What do you see?

bundling? What do you see? bundling? What do you see? Yeah, it's a great framing. I think that Yeah, it's a great framing. I think that Yeah, it's a great framing. I think that um AI right now is maybe an act one one um AI right now is maybe an act one one um AI right now is maybe an act one one and a half of the of the play. and a half of the of the play. and a half of the of the play. Maybe. Um Maybe. Um Maybe. Um you know, last year we're recording this you know, last year we're recording this you know, last year we're recording this in in in 2024. Last year 2024. Last year 2024. Last year we saw chat GPT and it was sort of like we saw chat GPT and it was sort of like we saw chat GPT and it was sort of like boom, suddenly we're all talking boom, suddenly we're all talking boom, suddenly we're all talking generative AI and it was just a generative AI and it was just a generative AI and it was just a fascination. I think a lot of every fascination. I think a lot of every fascination. I think a lot of every everybody dabbled just to play with it. everybody dabbled just to play with it. everybody dabbled just to play with it. Novelty. Novelty. Novelty. Um Um Um we're seeing now a little bit of an we're seeing now a little bit of an we're seeing now a little bit of an emergence of some practical tools emergence of some practical tools emergence of some practical tools um within the church and also within a um within the church and also within a um within the church and also within a lot of domains that that use AI to do a lot of domains that that use AI to do a lot of domains that that use AI to do a task. task. task. And I see a lot of administrative tasks And I see a lot of administrative tasks And I see a lot of administrative tasks and repetitive tasks. and repetitive tasks. and repetitive tasks. Um you know, is AI coming for my job? Um you know, is AI coming for my job? Um you know, is AI coming for my job? It's like, well, I don't know. Is if It's like, well, I don't know. Is if It's like, well, I don't know. Is if your job is your job is your job is purely administrative, repetitive purely administrative, repetitive purely administrative, repetitive things, probably you should learn how to things, probably you should learn how to things, probably you should learn how to use AI. That would be smart. use AI. That would be smart. use AI. That would be smart. Um Um Um but I think moving forward I see AI but I think moving forward I see AI but I think moving forward I see AI starting to starting to starting to um starting to apply to judgment and um starting to apply to judgment and um starting to apply to judgment and decisions, um looking for patterns, decisions, um looking for patterns, decisions, um looking for patterns, whether it's whether it's whether it's let's say, let's analyze the last three let's say, let's analyze the last three let's say, let's analyze the last three years of of weather data years of of weather data years of of weather data to try to predict how many snow closings to try to predict how many snow closings to try to predict how many snow closings we may have in a given winter. Um, you we may have in a given winter. Um, you we may have in a given winter. Um, you know, things like that or know, things like that or know, things like that or um, um, um, patterns around attendance or volunteer patterns around attendance or volunteer patterns around attendance or volunteer engagement. Some of those things are are engagement. Some of those things are are engagement. Some of those things are are interesting applications.

interesting applications. interesting applications. Um, Um, Um, bundling those then with the volunteer bundling those then with the volunteer bundling those then with the volunteer scheduling tools we use or other, um, scheduling tools we use or other, um, scheduling tools we use or other, um, you know, attendance trackers we use. you know, attendance trackers we use. you know, attendance trackers we use. Like that that would be interesting and Like that that would be interesting and Like that that would be interesting and you are starting to see that. you are starting to see that. you are starting to see that. Um, I think that in a lot of our work Um, I think that in a lot of our work Um, I think that in a lot of our work with AI, with AI, with AI, one of the big things Gloo has been, we one of the big things Gloo has been, we one of the big things Gloo has been, we have a whole initiative that, you know, have a whole initiative that, you know, have a whole initiative that, you know, Carey called the AI in the Church Carey called the AI in the Church Carey called the AI in the Church initiative. initiative. initiative. And we've brought a lot of thought And we've brought a lot of thought And we've brought a lot of thought leaders together and we've done a lot of leaders together and we've done a lot of leaders together and we've done a lot of research with pastors, with theologians, research with pastors, with theologians, research with pastors, with theologians, also AI experts. also AI experts. also AI experts. Right now, what we're seeing is that Right now, what we're seeing is that Right now, what we're seeing is that pastors and leaders have a net cautious pastors and leaders have a net cautious pastors and leaders have a net cautious view view view on using AI compared to even their on using AI compared to even their on using AI compared to even their congregants. congregants. congregants. Um, so so the public, the individuals Um, so so the public, the individuals Um, so so the public, the individuals maybe are a little bit more open than maybe are a little bit more open than maybe are a little bit more open than leaders and that could be good. That leaders and that could be good. That leaders and that could be good. That could be a a good dynamic. could be a a good dynamic. could be a a good dynamic. Um, but I think, you know, what we need Um, but I think, you know, what we need Um, but I think, you know, what we need is a little bit of time for this to play is a little bit of time for this to play is a little bit of time for this to play out and we're seeing an emergence right out and we're seeing an emergence right out and we're seeing an emergence right now of so much innovation. now of so much innovation. now of so much innovation. You know, we had an event, as you know, You know, we had an event, as you know, You know, we had an event, as you know, the AI in the Church hackathon the AI in the Church hackathon the AI in the Church hackathon last fall and we're doing it again this last fall and we're doing it again this last fall and we're doing it again this fall.

fall. fall. It was one of the most fun things we've It was one of the most fun things we've It was one of the most fun things we've done at Gloo that I've been part of for done at Gloo that I've been part of for done at Gloo that I've been part of for a long time. a long time. a long time. And most heartening for me, And most heartening for me, And most heartening for me, just to see the creativity and the just to see the creativity and the just to see the creativity and the innovation of, you know, people innovation of, you know, people innovation of, you know, people developing if if listeners don't know developing if if listeners don't know developing if if listeners don't know what a hackathon is, it's a it's a what a hackathon is, it's a it's a what a hackathon is, it's a it's a compressed weekend where compressed weekend where compressed weekend where teams come and they're challenged to teams come and they're challenged to teams come and they're challenged to build something build something build something that solves a challenge and we said the that solves a challenge and we said the that solves a challenge and we said the challenge is use AI challenge is use AI challenge is use AI to help a church or to build something to help a church or to build something to help a church or to build something around prayer, discipleship, evangelism, around prayer, discipleship, evangelism, around prayer, discipleship, evangelism, something like that. something like that. something like that. And the results we got back from 43 And the results we got back from 43 And the results we got back from 43 teams were mind-blowing. teams were mind-blowing. teams were mind-blowing. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, I left very encouraged. So, I left very encouraged. So, I left very encouraged. Um we're also surrounding all of that Um we're also surrounding all of that Um we're also surrounding all of that with great discussion around trust, with great discussion around trust, with great discussion around trust, privacy, privacy, privacy, and how do we think redemptively about and how do we think redemptively about and how do we think redemptively about using technologies that do carry risk. using technologies that do carry risk. using technologies that do carry risk. Um and so, there's a lot of great work Um and so, there's a lot of great work Um and so, there's a lot of great work happening. I'm very, very bullish happening. I'm very, very bullish happening. I'm very, very bullish about where AI is going and how churches about where AI is going and how churches about where AI is going and how churches not should use it, but will use it. I not should use it, but will use it. I not should use it, but will use it. I think, you know, our our statement is think, you know, our our statement is think, you know, our our statement is that this isn't like we can't sit this that this isn't like we can't sit this that this isn't like we can't sit this one out.

one out. one out. Uh there's a moral imperative for the Uh there's a moral imperative for the Uh there's a moral imperative for the church to be church to be church to be kind of leaning in and being curious kind of leaning in and being curious kind of leaning in and being curious about AI. about AI. about AI. I mean, it's can you imagine if we had I mean, it's can you imagine if we had I mean, it's can you imagine if we had sat out the internet? sat out the internet? sat out the internet? And no church was online. Like we And no church was online. Like we And no church was online. Like we we may not be talking about the church. we may not be talking about the church. we may not be talking about the church. Well, that was true to some extent until Well, that was true to some extent until Well, that was true to some extent until 2020, for the record. But, yes, you're 2020, for the record. But, yes, you're 2020, for the record. But, yes, you're right. Good point. Good point. right. Good point. Good point. right. Good point. Good point. dragged kicking and screaming. You You dragged kicking and screaming. You You dragged kicking and screaming. You You make a good point. make a good point. make a good point. So, okay, I want I want to I want to and So, okay, I want I want to I want to and So, okay, I want I want to I want to and I'm bullish on AI, too. I mean, I have I'm bullish on AI, too. I mean, I have I'm bullish on AI, too. I mean, I have very big concerns. We've done a whole very big concerns. We've done a whole very big concerns. We've done a whole series on it. We'll continue to speak series on it. We'll continue to speak series on it. We'll continue to speak into it. Um but again, Kevin Kelly's into it. Um but again, Kevin Kelly's into it. Um but again, Kevin Kelly's phrase, it's inevitable. There's phrase, it's inevitable. There's phrase, it's inevitable. There's inevitability. Even if you say, I don't inevitability. Even if you say, I don't inevitability. Even if you say, I don't use AI, number one, that's not true. use AI, number one, that's not true. use AI, number one, that's not true. If you're even near a phone, a If you're even near a phone, a If you're even near a phone, a smartphone, you're using AI. You may not smartphone, you're using AI. You may not smartphone, you're using AI. You may not be intentionally using it, but you're be intentionally using it, but you're be intentionally using it, but you're using it. And similarly, your church using it. And similarly, your church using it. And similarly, your church software system is going to have it software system is going to have it software system is going to have it already does have AI baked into it. Or already does have AI baked into it. Or already does have AI baked into it. Or if it doesn't, it will very, very if it doesn't, it will very, very if it doesn't, it will very, very shortly. So, there's an inevitability to shortly. So, there's an inevitability to shortly. So, there's an inevitability to it. But, let's fast forward 5 years, it. But, let's fast forward 5 years, it. But, let's fast forward 5 years, Brad.

Brad. Brad. What do you think, and I know this is What do you think, and I know this is What do you think, and I know this is speculative, we're going to see the AI speculative, we're going to see the AI speculative, we're going to see the AI landscape look like in the context of landscape look like in the context of landscape look like in the context of local church leadership? What will it local church leadership? What will it local church leadership? What will it make possible that isn't possible or is make possible that isn't possible or is make possible that isn't possible or is extremely difficult manual to do? Kind extremely difficult manual to do? Kind extremely difficult manual to do? Kind of like, you know, when you mentioned of like, you know, when you mentioned of like, you know, when you mentioned accounting and using spreadsheets for accounting and using spreadsheets for accounting and using spreadsheets for church budgeting in the '90s. Yeah, that church budgeting in the '90s. Yeah, that church budgeting in the '90s. Yeah, that was innovative. I remember one of the was innovative. I remember one of the was innovative. I remember one of the churches I started at kept books in a churches I started at kept books in a churches I started at kept books in a ledger, like a written ledger with pen ledger, like a written ledger with pen ledger, like a written ledger with pen and ink, and it was awful. And the and ink, and it was awful. And the and ink, and it was awful. And the statements had to be typed up. So, we statements had to be typed up. So, we statements had to be typed up. So, we got rid of that, and that was just a got rid of that, and that was just a got rid of that, and that was just a generation ago, and we moved to generation ago, and we moved to generation ago, and we moved to spreadsheets. So, I mean, when you think spreadsheets. So, I mean, when you think spreadsheets. So, I mean, when you think about that from a local congregation, about that from a local congregation, about that from a local congregation, what do you think is going to be the what do you think is going to be the what do you think is going to be the case 5 years from now that most of us case 5 years from now that most of us case 5 years from now that most of us will be using AI for? will be using AI for? will be using AI for? I think it's really fun to dream about I think it's really fun to dream about I think it's really fun to dream about this and to think about what's possible. this and to think about what's possible. this and to think about what's possible. Um we're seeing right now, you know, AI Um we're seeing right now, you know, AI Um we're seeing right now, you know, AI moving from generating text and images moving from generating text and images moving from generating text and images to to now really good quality video.

to to now really good quality video. to to now really good quality video. Um I think about our worship Um I think about our worship Um I think about our worship experiences. I think about where we experiences. I think about where we experiences. I think about where we paid to generate content today. paid to generate content today. paid to generate content today. Um there there's no replacement for art Um there there's no replacement for art Um there there's no replacement for art necessarily and and uh expressing, you necessarily and and uh expressing, you necessarily and and uh expressing, you know, know, know, God's amazing story through visuals, but God's amazing story through visuals, but God's amazing story through visuals, but you know, I think using AI in the you know, I think using AI in the you know, I think using AI in the weekend experience weekend experience weekend experience is is a clear early area where you're is is a clear early area where you're is is a clear early area where you're starting to see a lot of great starting to see a lot of great starting to see a lot of great applications. A mutual partner we have, applications. A mutual partner we have, applications. A mutual partner we have, church.tech, is doing great work here. church.tech, is doing great work here. church.tech, is doing great work here. Um Um Um but, you know, 3 to 5 years out, which but, you know, 3 to 5 years out, which but, you know, 3 to 5 years out, which by the way is by the way is by the way is the pace at which this is all going, the pace at which this is all going, the pace at which this is all going, that feels like really risky to even that feels like really risky to even that feels like really risky to even dream past a year from now. dream past a year from now. dream past a year from now. But, um I do think that But, um I do think that But, um I do think that I do think that AI I do think that AI I do think that AI can spot patterns can spot patterns can spot patterns more effectively and broadly than any more effectively and broadly than any more effectively and broadly than any person can. person can. person can. And well, in healthcare, that's true, And well, in healthcare, that's true, And well, in healthcare, that's true, right? You look at radiologists and and right? You look at radiologists and and right? You look at radiologists and and reading what they read, reading what they read, reading what they read, AIs are already doing a better job.

AIs are already doing a better job. AIs are already doing a better job. Right. Like, help me scan 10,000 x-rays Right. Like, help me scan 10,000 x-rays Right. Like, help me scan 10,000 x-rays to predict the probability this patient to predict the probability this patient to predict the probability this patient has a diagnosis. That's right. has a diagnosis. That's right. has a diagnosis. That's right. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so, I think that, you know, there's And so, I think that, you know, there's And so, I think that, you know, there's been talk for a number of years now in been talk for a number of years now in been talk for a number of years now in the church about scaling. You know, how the church about scaling. You know, how the church about scaling. You know, how do we scale? We've been through the mega do we scale? We've been through the mega do we scale? We've been through the mega church movement, the multi-site church movement, the multi-site church movement, the multi-site movement. Um there there are others movement. Um there there are others movement. Um there there are others right now that are sort of predicting, right now that are sort of predicting, right now that are sort of predicting, as we see alternate models of church, as we see alternate models of church, as we see alternate models of church, that that that we may eventually be in a we may eventually be in a we may eventually be in a in a in a day where the church a church, in a in a day where the church a church, in a in a day where the church a church, quote on quote, has millions of people quote on quote, has millions of people quote on quote, has millions of people in it or there could be in it or there could be in it or there could be very um very um very um very unlikely pairings of people who very unlikely pairings of people who very unlikely pairings of people who should be in community together. should be in community together. should be in community together. For example, today I can't really I I For example, today I can't really I I For example, today I can't really I I only speak English, I'm embarrassed to only speak English, I'm embarrassed to only speak English, I'm embarrassed to say. say. say. So I can't be in community So I can't be in community So I can't be in community with someone who speaks Hungarian or with someone who speaks Hungarian or with someone who speaks Hungarian or Taiwanese. Taiwanese. Taiwanese. Um but we're pretty much there where AI Um but we're pretty much there where AI Um but we're pretty much there where AI could help facilitate a real-time could help facilitate a real-time could help facilitate a real-time two-way conversation between two-way conversation between two-way conversation between people who speak very different people who speak very different people who speak very different languages. languages. languages. I just got back from Guatemala, and the I just got back from Guatemala, and the I just got back from Guatemala, and the way Google Translate has improved like way Google Translate has improved like way Google Translate has improved like scanning menus and just seeing over top scanning menus and just seeing over top scanning menus and just seeing over top of it exactly what the English of it exactly what the English of it exactly what the English translation is in real time, having translation is in real time, having translation is in real time, having conversations in real time through chat conversations in real time through chat conversations in real time through chat GPT. It's insane. So GPT. It's insane. So GPT. It's insane. So I was I was in Croatia last week, and I I was I was in Croatia last week, and I I was I was in Croatia last week, and I was excited that you know, I used Google was excited that you know, I used Google was excited that you know, I used Google Translate, and the thing I thought I was Translate, and the thing I thought I was Translate, and the thing I thought I was ordering is actually what came to the ordering is actually what came to the ordering is actually what came to the table at the restaurant.

table at the restaurant. table at the restaurant. So yeah, we're getting we're getting So yeah, we're getting we're getting So yeah, we're getting we're getting really close. And it's it it it so it's really close. And it's it it it so it's really close. And it's it it it so it's not a big leap of imagination, I I would not a big leap of imagination, I I would not a big leap of imagination, I I would say, to say, to say, to get to a point where get to a point where get to a point where AI can bring people together that maybe AI can bring people together that maybe AI can bring people together that maybe today it's it's more difficult to do. today it's it's more difficult to do. today it's it's more difficult to do. Um a caution, I would say that we always Um a caution, I would say that we always Um a caution, I would say that we always hold to though, is God has wired all of hold to though, is God has wired all of hold to though, is God has wired all of us in relationship. us in relationship. us in relationship. Yeah. And Yeah. And Yeah. And I think that there's a there's an I think that there's a there's an I think that there's a there's an opportunity and a mandate on every opportunity and a mandate on every opportunity and a mandate on every pastor, every leader, pastor, every leader, pastor, every leader, to sort of think about what I call this to sort of think about what I call this to sort of think about what I call this divide between the sacred and the divide between the sacred and the divide between the sacred and the synthetic. synthetic. synthetic. Um there's certain things that Um there's certain things that Um there's certain things that you you will never replace the Holy you you will never replace the Holy you you will never replace the Holy Spirit, you will never Spirit, you will never Spirit, you will never um um um have AI start to change theology. have AI start to change theology. have AI start to change theology. All those safeguards that are real All those safeguards that are real All those safeguards that are real risks, by the way. risks, by the way. risks, by the way. But there are other things where AI can But there are other things where AI can But there are other things where AI can open up doors that are open up doors that are open up doors that are completely impossible to even dream completely impossible to even dream completely impossible to even dream about today. But as leaders, we need to about today. But as leaders, we need to about today. But as leaders, we need to be discerning. We need to understand be discerning. We need to understand be discerning. We need to understand like where's that line.

like where's that line. like where's that line. And today, what we're hearing from And today, what we're hearing from And today, what we're hearing from pastors is they would be comfortable pastors is they would be comfortable pastors is they would be comfortable with AI with AI with AI performing administrative tasks, performing administrative tasks, performing administrative tasks, maybe repurposing content, things like maybe repurposing content, things like maybe repurposing content, things like that. that. that. They would not be comfortable, on They would not be comfortable, on They would not be comfortable, on balance, balance, balance, having AI write a whole sermon. having AI write a whole sermon. having AI write a whole sermon. Or having AI tell me how to counsel this Or having AI tell me how to counsel this Or having AI tell me how to counsel this married couple sitting in front of me. married couple sitting in front of me. married couple sitting in front of me. You know, those are You know, those are You know, those are those are more hallowed spaces, I think, those are more hallowed spaces, I think, those are more hallowed spaces, I think, that most leaders would say, I I that most leaders would say, I I that most leaders would say, I I actually don't want technology coming actually don't want technology coming actually don't want technology coming into this relationship. into this relationship. into this relationship. How can it support? So, we're going to How can it support? So, we're going to How can it support? So, we're going to have some trial and error, I predict, have some trial and error, I predict, have some trial and error, I predict, over the next 3 to 5 years over the next 3 to 5 years over the next 3 to 5 years to figure out where that all goes. to figure out where that all goes. to figure out where that all goes. Um and, you know, the work we're doing Um and, you know, the work we're doing Um and, you know, the work we're doing right now, Gloo is just the platform. right now, Gloo is just the platform. right now, Gloo is just the platform. We've got tremendous partners from all We've got tremendous partners from all We've got tremendous partners from all corners coming in to work on this. corners coming in to work on this. corners coming in to work on this. Um it's in a sense, AI is drawing Um it's in a sense, AI is drawing Um it's in a sense, AI is drawing together together together a lot of disparate ministries, all a lot of disparate ministries, all a lot of disparate ministries, all trying to sort this out for redemptive trying to sort this out for redemptive trying to sort this out for redemptive purposes, and that picture itself to me purposes, and that picture itself to me purposes, and that picture itself to me is beautiful.

is beautiful. is beautiful. So, I think I think 5 years from now, we So, I think I think 5 years from now, we So, I think I think 5 years from now, we should come back and have this should come back and have this should come back and have this conversation and see conversation and see conversation and see um um um where where it's taken us. where where it's taken us. where where it's taken us. Well, I'm back to that, you know, a Well, I'm back to that, you know, a Well, I'm back to that, you know, a couple of questions come to mind. One couple of questions come to mind. One couple of questions come to mind. One observation and a question, I guess. observation and a question, I guess. observation and a question, I guess. But, you know, back to that, what is But, you know, back to that, what is But, you know, back to that, what is going on in the church space, going on in the church space, going on in the church space, denominations are probably not going to denominations are probably not going to denominations are probably not going to be able to break ground in AI. Maybe I'm be able to break ground in AI. Maybe I'm be able to break ground in AI. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's a story I'm sitting wrong, maybe there's a story I'm sitting wrong, maybe there's a story I'm sitting on, and I'm not slamming denominations, on, and I'm not slamming denominations, on, and I'm not slamming denominations, but that's why, you know, when you have but that's why, you know, when you have but that's why, you know, when you have a hackathon and you have all these a hackathon and you have all these a hackathon and you have all these startups or solopreneurs trying to startups or solopreneurs trying to startups or solopreneurs trying to figure out how to crack a code on behalf figure out how to crack a code on behalf figure out how to crack a code on behalf of the church, that's probably where the of the church, that's probably where the of the church, that's probably where the innovation is going to come from. And innovation is going to come from. And innovation is going to come from. And even large churches, they might make a even large churches, they might make a even large churches, they might make a few advances in AI, but I think few advances in AI, but I think few advances in AI, but I think companies that are dedicated to it and companies that are dedicated to it and companies that are dedicated to it and who have the ministry in mind would who have the ministry in mind would who have the ministry in mind would probably do the best job. The other probably do the best job. The other probably do the best job. The other question I guess I have is cuz you've question I guess I have is cuz you've question I guess I have is cuz you've poured over the data even more than I poured over the data even more than I poured over the data even more than I have. have. have. Why the hesitancy Why the hesitancy Why the hesitancy why so many laggards when it comes to why so many laggards when it comes to why so many laggards when it comes to technology, the future, and AI in the technology, the future, and AI in the technology, the future, and AI in the church? Do you have a theory on that?

church? Do you have a theory on that? church? Do you have a theory on that? Well, I think you know, we we have to Well, I think you know, we we have to Well, I think you know, we we have to acknowledge that we're all stewarding a acknowledge that we're all stewarding a acknowledge that we're all stewarding a timeless, unchanging gospel message. And timeless, unchanging gospel message. And timeless, unchanging gospel message. And I think we have a tension in ministry I think we have a tension in ministry I think we have a tension in ministry almost by design almost by design almost by design of what should change and what should of what should change and what should of what should change and what should never change. never change. never change. Um AI can be used for a lot of nefarious Um AI can be used for a lot of nefarious Um AI can be used for a lot of nefarious purposes. And unfortunately today, most purposes. And unfortunately today, most purposes. And unfortunately today, most of us general consumers, if we flip on of us general consumers, if we flip on of us general consumers, if we flip on cable news or read any sort of news cable news or read any sort of news cable news or read any sort of news reports about AI, we're probably going reports about AI, we're probably going reports about AI, we're probably going to walk away a little freaked out. to walk away a little freaked out. to walk away a little freaked out. I mean, there's there's a lot of there's I mean, there's there's a lot of there's I mean, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of kind of weird, you know, at a lot of kind of weird, you know, at a lot of kind of weird, you know, at best, you know, scary at worst uses of best, you know, scary at worst uses of best, you know, scary at worst uses of this. this. this. So, it's it's normal and I think it's So, it's it's normal and I think it's So, it's it's normal and I think it's understandable that a understandable that a understandable that a you know, a believing Christian is going you know, a believing Christian is going you know, a believing Christian is going to look at that with skepticism. to look at that with skepticism. to look at that with skepticism. Um that said, Um that said, Um that said, that's been true of every technology that's been true of every technology that's been true of every technology advance in history by definition. It can advance in history by definition. It can advance in history by definition. It can be used for good, it can be used for be used for good, it can be used for be used for good, it can be used for bad. bad. bad. Uh Dave Ramsey's great on this point, Uh Dave Ramsey's great on this point, Uh Dave Ramsey's great on this point, you know, a brick you know, a brick you know, a brick a brick is amoral, but it could be used a brick is amoral, but it could be used a brick is amoral, but it could be used to build a hospital, it could be used to to build a hospital, it could be used to to build a hospital, it could be used to somebody throw through a window.

somebody throw through a window. somebody throw through a window. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, AI I think is is just a a more And so, AI I think is is just a a more And so, AI I think is is just a a more powerful, um and we don't not fully powerful, um and we don't not fully powerful, um and we don't not fully understand it yet. Even the creators of understand it yet. Even the creators of understand it yet. Even the creators of AI, Sam Altman, AI, Sam Altman, AI, Sam Altman, uh Elon Musk have been, you know, uh Elon Musk have been, you know, uh Elon Musk have been, you know, articulate on this point that we don't articulate on this point that we don't articulate on this point that we don't fully understand yet what we've created. fully understand yet what we've created. fully understand yet what we've created. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, we need to be mindful as the church. So, we need to be mindful as the church. So, we need to be mindful as the church. Our point simply is the church could Our point simply is the church could Our point simply is the church could actually lead here. actually lead here. actually lead here. Um Um Um AI AI AI you know, Proverbs talks a lot about you know, Proverbs talks a lot about you know, Proverbs talks a lot about knowledge, understanding, and wisdom in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom in that pattern. that pattern. that pattern. And you know, if Google and the internet And you know, if Google and the internet And you know, if Google and the internet brought us access to vast knowledge, brought us access to vast knowledge, brought us access to vast knowledge, um AI in a sense is almost bringing a um AI in a sense is almost bringing a um AI in a sense is almost bringing a new type of understanding where it can new type of understanding where it can new type of understanding where it can analyze vast pools of knowledge and help analyze vast pools of knowledge and help analyze vast pools of knowledge and help us find patterns. us find patterns. us find patterns. But wisdom, that third, you know, But wisdom, that third, you know, But wisdom, that third, you know, coveted leg of the stool, coveted leg of the stool, coveted leg of the stool, uh that's that's something that's uh that's that's something that's uh that's that's something that's belongs to the image bearers of God. And belongs to the image bearers of God. And belongs to the image bearers of God. And that's something that God brings. that's something that God brings. that's something that God brings. So I take solace in that. So I take solace in that. So I take solace in that. Um but I understand laggards who might Um but I understand laggards who might Um but I understand laggards who might have a little bit of trepidation have a little bit of trepidation have a little bit of trepidation about, you know, and by the way, about, you know, and by the way, about, you know, and by the way, seminaries to my knowledge don't teach seminaries to my knowledge don't teach seminaries to my knowledge don't teach pastors a lot of technology skills or pastors a lot of technology skills or pastors a lot of technology skills or discernment.

discernment. discernment. So uh it's also this feels like a domain So uh it's also this feels like a domain So uh it's also this feels like a domain that we're not equipped to even that we're not equipped to even that we're not equipped to even uh understand yet. uh understand yet. uh understand yet. Yeah, it'd be great if there was a a Yeah, it'd be great if there was a a Yeah, it'd be great if there was a a philosophy and theology of AI course. philosophy and theology of AI course. philosophy and theology of AI course. Maybe there is, I haven't heard of it. Maybe there is, I haven't heard of it. Maybe there is, I haven't heard of it. That would that would be great. Um I That would that would be great. Um I That would that would be great. Um I want to switch gears a little bit, talk want to switch gears a little bit, talk want to switch gears a little bit, talk about outreach. So I've got a stat in about outreach. So I've got a stat in about outreach. So I've got a stat in front of me. Um the number of pastors front of me. Um the number of pastors front of me. Um the number of pastors who say their church is very effective who say their church is very effective who say their church is very effective at outreach to non-church goers dropped at outreach to non-church goers dropped at outreach to non-church goers dropped from 13% in 2015 to 1% in 2023. from 13% in 2015 to 1% in 2023. from 13% in 2015 to 1% in 2023. In other words, 99% of pastors say that In other words, 99% of pastors say that In other words, 99% of pastors say that their church is not very good at their church is not very good at their church is not very good at outreach. That's a huge drop. I'm outreach. That's a huge drop. I'm outreach. That's a huge drop. I'm curious, you know, first of all, thanks curious, you know, first of all, thanks curious, you know, first of all, thanks for the frank admission. Secondly, any for the frank admission. Secondly, any for the frank admission. Secondly, any idea what's fueling this decline? idea what's fueling this decline? idea what's fueling this decline? Well, we're far enough past COVID, you Well, we're far enough past COVID, you Well, we're far enough past COVID, you know, I've been I've been trying to keep know, I've been I've been trying to keep know, I've been I've been trying to keep up with stats on church growth and up with stats on church growth and up with stats on church growth and attendance, and attendance, and attendance, and you know, one once a lot of us you know, one once a lot of us you know, one once a lot of us experienced the return to the pews experienced the return to the pews experienced the return to the pews moment, those days felt good for a lot moment, those days felt good for a lot moment, those days felt good for a lot of churches. Uh people are starting to of churches. Uh people are starting to of churches. Uh people are starting to show back up. Uh that that seems to have show back up. Uh that that seems to have show back up. Uh that that seems to have plateaued.

plateaued. plateaued. And uh just was reading today in fact And uh just was reading today in fact And uh just was reading today in fact that only 25% of churches that only 25% of churches that only 25% of churches uh uh uh in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. in 2023 experienced growth over 2022. Woah. Woah. Woah. Um so if you if your church Another way Um so if you if your church Another way Um so if you if your church Another way to say that is if your church grew in to say that is if your church grew in to say that is if your church grew in 2023, you're in the top 25%. 2023, you're in the top 25%. 2023, you're in the top 25%. Um Um Um most were flat if not declining. most were flat if not declining. most were flat if not declining. The more sobering stat I believe The more sobering stat I believe The more sobering stat I believe some pastors are paying attention to some pastors are paying attention to some pastors are paying attention to this and I think too few are paying this and I think too few are paying this and I think too few are paying attention is attention is attention is most of the so-called growth or new most of the so-called growth or new most of the so-called growth or new attenders we see are really just attenders we see are really just attenders we see are really just transfer growth. transfer growth. transfer growth. Um that's not a new trend. That was That Um that's not a new trend. That was That Um that's not a new trend. That was That was in place before COVID, but it's was in place before COVID, but it's was in place before COVID, but it's accelerating. You know, the best I can accelerating. You know, the best I can accelerating. You know, the best I can see today is about 80% of see today is about 80% of see today is about 80% of church growth is transfer growth. church growth is transfer growth. church growth is transfer growth. Um there's entire denominations where Um there's entire denominations where Um there's entire denominations where uh and I won't name names not to single uh and I won't name names not to single uh and I won't name names not to single anybody out, but you know, a large anybody out, but you know, a large anybody out, but you know, a large denomination I recently was studying denomination I recently was studying denomination I recently was studying Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. 48% of the of the churches in that 48% of the of the churches in that 48% of the of the churches in that denomination experienced no converts or denomination experienced no converts or denomination experienced no converts or baptisms baptisms baptisms in the last year.

in the last year. in the last year. Um Um Um so so so we're not on balance reaching new we're not on balance reaching new we're not on balance reaching new people. We're We're trading people. people. We're We're trading people. people. We're We're trading people. And I think pastors are maybe starting And I think pastors are maybe starting And I think pastors are maybe starting to to to uh come to grips with that, which might uh come to grips with that, which might uh come to grips with that, which might be explain part of why be explain part of why be explain part of why the response to that Barna stat of the response to that Barna stat of the response to that Barna stat of pastors stat that you shared pastors stat that you shared pastors stat that you shared um that said, here's the conundrum Carey um that said, here's the conundrum Carey um that said, here's the conundrum Carey is is is we're in the most spiritually open we're in the most spiritually open we're in the most spiritually open generation. generation. generation. People are hungry. They have the They People are hungry. They have the They People are hungry. They have the They feel this void. feel this void. feel this void. And they the the dynamics of trust have And they the the dynamics of trust have And they the the dynamics of trust have changed. The people's view of the church changed. The people's view of the church changed. The people's view of the church may have evolved in the outside world, may have evolved in the outside world, may have evolved in the outside world, but they remain spiritually hungry. but they remain spiritually hungry. but they remain spiritually hungry. And so there's this amazing opportunity, And so there's this amazing opportunity, And so there's this amazing opportunity, but also sobering kind of reality of but also sobering kind of reality of but also sobering kind of reality of church as we're doing it today. And I church as we're doing it today. And I church as we're doing it today. And I think there's a giant opportunity there. think there's a giant opportunity there. think there's a giant opportunity there. Um and there's some great proven Um and there's some great proven Um and there's some great proven answers to it. Um, we just need to kind answers to it. Um, we just need to kind answers to it. Um, we just need to kind of decide if we're going to step boldly of decide if we're going to step boldly of decide if we're going to step boldly into a new form of outreach into a new form of outreach into a new form of outreach uh, or uh, or uh, or try to continue to play the come and, try to continue to play the come and, try to continue to play the come and, you know, build it and they will come you know, build it and they will come you know, build it and they will come Field of Dreams type of mindset, which Field of Dreams type of mindset, which Field of Dreams type of mindset, which did well for us in the last generation, did well for us in the last generation, did well for us in the last generation, right? But it's that's not working right? But it's that's not working right? But it's that's not working anymore.

anymore. anymore. So, that's a case where the stats were So, that's a case where the stats were So, that's a case where the stats were actually worse than I thought they were. actually worse than I thought they were. actually worse than I thought they were. Thank you for sharing that. But, one of Thank you for sharing that. But, one of Thank you for sharing that. But, one of the problems that you and I have been the problems that you and I have been the problems that you and I have been trying to solve, me through my writing, trying to solve, me through my writing, trying to solve, me through my writing, you through your work, is, you know, in you through your work, is, you know, in you through your work, is, you know, in your current role, you place ads uh, your current role, you place ads uh, your current role, you place ads uh, that are funded by Christian donors um, that are funded by Christian donors um, that are funded by Christian donors um, for help, and people are asked if they for help, and people are asked if they for help, and people are asked if they want to connect with a local church, want to connect with a local church, want to connect with a local church, and you try to connect them with a local and you try to connect them with a local and you try to connect them with a local church. So, these explorers, as you call church. So, these explorers, as you call church. So, these explorers, as you call them, respond to an online ad, you know, them, respond to an online ad, you know, them, respond to an online ad, you know, feeling suicidal, you'll send them to a feeling suicidal, you'll send them to a feeling suicidal, you'll send them to a suicide hotline, or, you know, "Hey, I suicide hotline, or, you know, "Hey, I suicide hotline, or, you know, "Hey, I really want prayer." or really want prayer." or really want prayer." or uh, "Yeah, I'd like to talk to uh, "Yeah, I'd like to talk to uh, "Yeah, I'd like to talk to somebody." or "I want to join a local somebody." or "I want to join a local somebody." or "I want to join a local church. I want to go to church Sunday. church. I want to go to church Sunday. church. I want to go to church Sunday. Get me connected." Get me connected." Get me connected." You then refer them to churches that are You then refer them to churches that are You then refer them to churches that are signed up signed up signed up to a local church, correct? to a local church, correct? to a local church, correct? That's right. That's right. That's right. So, if there's somebody in my community So, if there's somebody in my community So, if there's somebody in my community who responded to an ad, you're like, who responded to an ad, you're like, who responded to an ad, you're like, "Oh, we'll send them to Connect Us on "Oh, we'll send them to Connect Us on "Oh, we'll send them to Connect Us on Sunday." Sunday." Sunday." One of the problems I've heard you One of the problems I've heard you One of the problems I've heard you describe, Brad, is that you can't get describe, Brad, is that you can't get describe, Brad, is that you can't get pastors to follow up on these quote pastors to follow up on these quote pastors to follow up on these quote leads, these people who have actually leads, these people who have actually leads, these people who have actually asked, "Will you connect me with a asked, "Will you connect me with a asked, "Will you connect me with a church?"

church?" church?" Can you Can you explain what's going on Can you Can you explain what's going on Can you Can you explain what's going on there and the dynamic behind that? You there and the dynamic behind that? You there and the dynamic behind that? You would think if if only 1% of churches would think if if only 1% of churches would think if if only 1% of churches think they're very effective at think they're very effective at think they're very effective at outreach, we'd all be jumping at Oh my outreach, we'd all be jumping at Oh my outreach, we'd all be jumping at Oh my goodness, somebody wants to come to my goodness, somebody wants to come to my goodness, somebody wants to come to my church, and yet you're finding it really church, and yet you're finding it really church, and yet you're finding it really difficult to get pastors to reach out to difficult to get pastors to reach out to difficult to get pastors to reach out to the people who are reaching out to them. the people who are reaching out to them. the people who are reaching out to them. What's What's going on? What's What's going on? What's What's going on? Yeah, well, you and I have talked a lot Yeah, well, you and I have talked a lot Yeah, well, you and I have talked a lot about this, Carey, and I've I've moved about this, Carey, and I've I've moved about this, Carey, and I've I've moved through the stages of you know, through the stages of you know, through the stages of you know, bewilderment to, you know, bewilderment to, you know, bewilderment to, you know, I'm actually seeing a pattern here, I I'm actually seeing a pattern here, I I'm actually seeing a pattern here, I think, and I don't think it's a think, and I don't think it's a think, and I don't think it's a technology issue, just to reassure our technology issue, just to reassure our technology issue, just to reassure our listeners that are are tuning us out cuz listeners that are are tuning us out cuz listeners that are are tuning us out cuz this feels like a tech thing. this feels like a tech thing. this feels like a tech thing. I think really we need to we need to I think really we need to we need to I think really we need to we need to fundamentally rethink the way we fundamentally rethink the way we fundamentally rethink the way we understand journeys of people. understand journeys of people. understand journeys of people. Um you know, another way to say this is Um you know, another way to say this is Um you know, another way to say this is there has been a fundamental shift in there has been a fundamental shift in there has been a fundamental shift in the way people and churches connect to the way people and churches connect to the way people and churches connect to each other. each other. each other. And it really stems, I think, from the And it really stems, I think, from the And it really stems, I think, from the way we all behave in every other part of way we all behave in every other part of way we all behave in every other part of our life. our life. our life. If I'm if I'm deciding If I'm if I'm deciding If I'm if I'm deciding whether or not to buy whether or not to buy whether or not to buy a pair of shoes, a new car, whatever, a pair of shoes, a new car, whatever, a pair of shoes, a new car, whatever, I go through stages of that, and I might I go through stages of that, and I might I go through stages of that, and I might look for a while, do some research.

look for a while, do some research. look for a while, do some research. By the way, people trust their own By the way, people trust their own By the way, people trust their own research and decisions about 81% of the research and decisions about 81% of the research and decisions about 81% of the time. time. time. They trust what a brand or a company They trust what a brand or a company They trust what a brand or a company says about their product maybe 15% of says about their product maybe 15% of says about their product maybe 15% of the time. the time. the time. So So So so think about that if you're a church, so think about that if you're a church, so think about that if you're a church, and you're running ads, and you're and you're running ads, and you're and you're running ads, and you're you've got a billboard, or whatever you you've got a billboard, or whatever you you've got a billboard, or whatever you do, you can claim whatever it is you do, you can claim whatever it is you do, you can claim whatever it is you want about your church, but the way want about your church, but the way want about your church, but the way consumers are wired today consumers are wired today consumers are wired today is they want to do their own research. is they want to do their own research. is they want to do their own research. They want to check out your live stream. They want to check out your live stream. They want to check out your live stream. They want to ask around. And they may They want to ask around. And they may They want to ask around. And they may they may believe certain things about they may believe certain things about they may believe certain things about churches in general. So, you know, churches in general. So, you know, churches in general. So, you know, Carey, when you and I sit down and talk Carey, when you and I sit down and talk Carey, when you and I sit down and talk about the fact that about the fact that about the fact that Gloo connects, you know, by the time Gloo connects, you know, by the time Gloo connects, you know, by the time this this airs, probably about 400,000 this this airs, probably about 400,000 this this airs, probably about 400,000 personal connections we've made of personal connections we've made of personal connections we've made of people to churches, people to churches, people to churches, which is, by the way, just we're so which is, by the way, just we're so which is, by the way, just we're so excited by that. That's like 4,000 excited by that. That's like 4,000 excited by that. That's like 4,000 regular-size churches that we've regular-size churches that we've regular-size churches that we've filled, you know, in theory. filled, you know, in theory. filled, you know, in theory. But yeah, you're right. But yeah, you're right. But yeah, you're right. are made, not attempted, but like are made, not attempted, but like are made, not attempted, but like connected. connected. connected. That's a person. We have their name.

That's a person. We have their name. That's a person. We have their name. They've they've asked us to connect They've they've asked us to connect They've they've asked us to connect them, and we've done that to a specific them, and we've done that to a specific them, and we've done that to a specific church, church, church, offering that church then everything offering that church then everything offering that church then everything they need to connect and communicate they need to connect and communicate they need to connect and communicate back with that person. And that's back with that person. And that's back with that person. And that's the critical moment you're talking about the critical moment you're talking about the critical moment you're talking about is is is does it happen? Does the church respond does it happen? Does the church respond does it happen? Does the church respond and do they do so effectively? and do they do so effectively? and do they do so effectively? Um Um Um one pastor told me he was disappointed one pastor told me he was disappointed one pastor told me he was disappointed because when he wrote back to people, because when he wrote back to people, because when he wrote back to people, he was only hearing a response maybe I he was only hearing a response maybe I he was only hearing a response maybe I think he said about 40% of the time. think he said about 40% of the time. think he said about 40% of the time. So in other words, send them send them So in other words, send them send them So in other words, send them send them 10 people, he writes them all back, four 10 people, he writes them all back, four 10 people, he writes them all back, four write him back and he thought that was a write him back and he thought that was a write him back and he thought that was a failure. failure. failure. Now Carey, you do a good bit of Now Carey, you do a good bit of Now Carey, you do a good bit of marketing in your business and we do as marketing in your business and we do as marketing in your business and we do as well. well. well. And I know business leaders probably And I know business leaders probably And I know business leaders probably like if I had a 40% conversion rate on like if I had a 40% conversion rate on like if I had a 40% conversion rate on any campaign I run, any campaign I run, any campaign I run, I would be a hero. Like I would be I would be a hero. Like I would be I would be a hero. Like I would be Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I would be promoted. Um but but in I would be promoted. Um but but in I would be promoted. Um but but in ministry, we don't think of it that way. ministry, we don't think of it that way. ministry, we don't think of it that way. Those are journeys of potential Those are journeys of potential Those are journeys of potential attendees, potential visitors.

attendees, potential visitors. attendees, potential visitors. Um we need to understand that not 100% Um we need to understand that not 100% Um we need to understand that not 100% of these are going to hit and people are of these are going to hit and people are of these are going to hit and people are doing their research, they're on a doing their research, they're on a doing their research, they're on a journey to inspect and explore. journey to inspect and explore. journey to inspect and explore. It's why we call them explorers. It's why we call them explorers. It's why we call them explorers. Um so I think that there's a curiosity Um so I think that there's a curiosity Um so I think that there's a curiosity maybe missing and there's a great maybe missing and there's a great maybe missing and there's a great opportunity for equipping all of us as opportunity for equipping all of us as opportunity for equipping all of us as leaders leaders leaders to learn things like funnels. Like to learn things like funnels. Like to learn things like funnels. Like Carey, you you taught a great course Carey, you you taught a great course Carey, you you taught a great course just on, just on, just on, you know, click to connect. you know, click to connect. you know, click to connect. Literally understanding that there is a Literally understanding that there is a Literally understanding that there is a funnel. funnel. funnel. And by definite funnels are big at the And by definite funnels are big at the And by definite funnels are big at the top, narrow at the bottom, which means top, narrow at the bottom, which means top, narrow at the bottom, which means you have leakage in the in the middle you have leakage in the in the middle you have leakage in the in the middle and that's a normal and that's a normal and that's a normal marketing concept. marketing concept. marketing concept. We also think about in a in a physical We also think about in a in a physical We also think about in a in a physical sense, sense, sense, we like first-time visitors. A lot of we like first-time visitors. A lot of we like first-time visitors. A lot of churches figure out how do we get from a churches figure out how do we get from a churches figure out how do we get from a first-time visitor to second time or first-time visitor to second time or first-time visitor to second time or third-time visitor. third-time visitor. third-time visitor. There's a lot of great stats about the There's a lot of great stats about the There's a lot of great stats about the second time visit is the most important. second time visit is the most important. second time visit is the most important. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Those are analog principles. The same is Those are analog principles. The same is Those are analog principles. The same is exact thing is true with digital exact thing is true with digital exact thing is true with digital that we're going to have that we're going to have that we're going to have a a nurture path to follow with these a a nurture path to follow with these a a nurture path to follow with these people, people, people, but that is not but that is not but that is not necessarily, you know, necessarily, you know, necessarily, you know, uh uh uh normal mindset, normal behavior for most normal mindset, normal behavior for most normal mindset, normal behavior for most of us in the church. So, it's a good of us in the church. So, it's a good of us in the church. So, it's a good chance for us to just understand our chance for us to just understand our chance for us to just understand our customer, if I can use that language.

customer, if I can use that language. customer, if I can use that language. So, let's say a church signs up to get So, let's say a church signs up to get So, let's say a church signs up to get those leads. Okay, and it's like, yep, those leads. Okay, and it's like, yep, those leads. Okay, and it's like, yep, we're interested. We want to do that. we're interested. We want to do that. we're interested. We want to do that. And if there's somebody in our community And if there's somebody in our community And if there's somebody in our community who wants prayer, if there's somebody in who wants prayer, if there's somebody in who wants prayer, if there's somebody in our community who wants to visit a our community who wants to visit a our community who wants to visit a church and wants to connect with a local church and wants to connect with a local church and wants to connect with a local church, we're in. church, we're in. church, we're in. What would it take to double that What would it take to double that What would it take to double that conversion rate, to double that conversion rate, to double that conversion rate, to double that outreach? So, let's say somebody outreach? So, let's say somebody outreach? So, let's say somebody listening has will pick a number, listening has will pick a number, listening has will pick a number, 100 new visitors in the course of a 100 new visitors in the course of a 100 new visitors in the course of a year. year. year. If they wanted double that to 200 new If they wanted double that to 200 new If they wanted double that to 200 new visitors, what would they need to do? visitors, what would they need to do? visitors, what would they need to do? Well, I mean, Well, I mean, Well, I mean, there's a story of two churches, which there's a story of two churches, which there's a story of two churches, which is a great answer to this. is a great answer to this. is a great answer to this. Where they were essentially getting net Where they were essentially getting net Where they were essentially getting net net the same inbound set of connections, net the same inbound set of connections, net the same inbound set of connections, but one of them, to your point, had but one of them, to your point, had but one of them, to your point, had almost double the result. And so, we almost double the result. And so, we almost double the result. And so, we study that. study that. study that. Right? So, let's call it church A was Right? So, let's call it church A was Right? So, let's call it church A was the one that had about a 40% response. the one that had about a 40% response. the one that had about a 40% response. And Carrie, if you had written in maybe And Carrie, if you had written in maybe And Carrie, if you had written in maybe on a Facebook or Google ad and and you on a Facebook or Google ad and and you on a Facebook or Google ad and and you typed in something like, hey, typed in something like, hey, typed in something like, hey, my wife and I are looking for some help my wife and I are looking for some help my wife and I are looking for some help in our marriage.

in our marriage. in our marriage. Uh, we'd love to connect with someone um Uh, we'd love to connect with someone um Uh, we'd love to connect with someone um who might be able to speak into what who might be able to speak into what who might be able to speak into what we're going through. we're going through. we're going through. This church A would have written back This church A would have written back This church A would have written back something like this. They would say, hi something like this. They would say, hi something like this. They would say, hi Carrie, um got your message, sounds like Carrie, um got your message, sounds like Carrie, um got your message, sounds like something's going on in your marriage. something's going on in your marriage. something's going on in your marriage. Our church meets this Sunday at 9:30 and Our church meets this Sunday at 9:30 and Our church meets this Sunday at 9:30 and 11. We'd love to have you come visit. 11. We'd love to have you come visit. 11. We'd love to have you come visit. Um we're here anytime you need help. Um we're here anytime you need help. Um we're here anytime you need help. And they they got between a 10 and 40% And they they got between a 10 and 40% And they they got between a 10 and 40% response rate to that. They you know, response rate to that. They you know, response rate to that. They you know, they might have shared a Bible verse now they might have shared a Bible verse now they might have shared a Bible verse now and then. and then. and then. Church B also got lots of inbounds, Church B also got lots of inbounds, Church B also got lots of inbounds, relationship, loneliness, requests for relationship, loneliness, requests for relationship, loneliness, requests for prayer, like you said. prayer, like you said. prayer, like you said. Uh, they would respond more something Uh, they would respond more something Uh, they would respond more something like this. Hi Carrie, like this. Hi Carrie, like this. Hi Carrie, first of all, thanks so much for having first of all, thanks so much for having first of all, thanks so much for having the courage to write in about your the courage to write in about your the courage to write in about your marriage. It sounds like something's marriage. It sounds like something's marriage. It sounds like something's going on and I think I can help you. My going on and I think I can help you. My going on and I think I can help you. My name's Brad, I'm a pastor. Um when's a name's Brad, I'm a pastor. Um when's a name's Brad, I'm a pastor. Um when's a good time tomorrow to talk? good time tomorrow to talk? good time tomorrow to talk? And then they they just and they text And then they they just and they text And then they they just and they text this out and they put the phone down. this out and they put the phone down. this out and they put the phone down. Nothing about me, nothing about come to Nothing about me, nothing about come to Nothing about me, nothing about come to my church, just I want to help you. I my church, just I want to help you. I my church, just I want to help you. I I'd love to talk to you. So you can hear I'd love to talk to you. So you can hear I'd love to talk to you. So you can hear a difference in is it about me, is it a difference in is it about me, is it a difference in is it about me, is it about them?

about them? about them? And is it more institutional or more And is it more institutional or more And is it more institutional or more relational? relational? relational? Hi Brad, here's my billboard. Hi Brad, here's my billboard. Hi Brad, here's my billboard. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. So but you can like this is not a So but you can like this is not a So but you can like this is not a technology problem. That you know, technology problem. That you know, technology problem. That you know, they're using the same tools. It's they're using the same tools. It's they're using the same tools. It's pretty easy to use. So I I just think pretty easy to use. So I I just think pretty easy to use. So I I just think the difference you're asking is how do the difference you're asking is how do the difference you're asking is how do we double? I think it's really how do we we double? I think it's really how do we we double? I think it's really how do we develop a curiosity to move toward develop a curiosity to move toward develop a curiosity to move toward people people people and know that some of them we're going and know that some of them we're going and know that some of them we're going to be able to help and they may never to be able to help and they may never to be able to help and they may never come to our church. come to our church. come to our church. Some of them we're going to help and Some of them we're going to help and Some of them we're going to help and build trust and then they want to come build trust and then they want to come build trust and then they want to come check us out. check us out. check us out. Um and and we see if that pattern Um and and we see if that pattern Um and and we see if that pattern exists, those churches consistently see exists, those churches consistently see exists, those churches consistently see just a tremendous response. just a tremendous response. just a tremendous response. So basically double with the second So basically double with the second So basically double with the second approach, thereabouts. approach, thereabouts. approach, thereabouts. That second church in terms of That second church in terms of That second church in terms of responsiveness. responsiveness. responsiveness. That's right. That second church which That's right. That second church which That's right. That second church which is real um sees on on average about an is real um sees on on average about an is real um sees on on average about an 85 to 90% response rate. 85 to 90% response rate. 85 to 90% response rate. From their explorers. From their explorers. From their explorers. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah, and then it's intuitive. It Wow. Yeah, and then it's intuitive. It Wow. Yeah, and then it's intuitive. It sounds like oh you actually care about sounds like oh you actually care about sounds like oh you actually care about me. Now I I want to I want to talk about me. Now I I want to I want to talk about me. Now I I want to I want to talk about the freak out going on in a lot of the freak out going on in a lot of the freak out going on in a lot of pastors' heads who are like pastors' heads who are like pastors' heads who are like all right.

all right. all right. That means I'm doing that three times a That means I'm doing that three times a That means I'm doing that three times a day and setting up three appointments. day and setting up three appointments. day and setting up three appointments. It doesn't have to be the pastor, is It doesn't have to be the pastor, is It doesn't have to be the pastor, is that right? Or does it have to be the that right? Or does it have to be the that right? Or does it have to be the pastor who connects? pastor who connects? pastor who connects? No, thank you for bringing this up. So I No, thank you for bringing this up. So I No, thank you for bringing this up. So I would argue in most cases it shouldn't would argue in most cases it shouldn't would argue in most cases it shouldn't be the pastor, at least not the first be the pastor, at least not the first be the pastor, at least not the first line, you know, what we call digital line, you know, what we call digital line, you know, what we call digital first responder. first responder. first responder. You if you're a church of 90 or if You if you're a church of 90 or if You if you're a church of 90 or if you're a church of 9,000, you have you're a church of 9,000, you have you're a church of 9,000, you have someone in your church who would love to someone in your church who would love to someone in your church who would love to do this. do this. do this. Uh by the way, this is a great ministry Uh by the way, this is a great ministry Uh by the way, this is a great ministry opportunity that can be done from opportunity that can be done from opportunity that can be done from anywhere. It's digital, right? anywhere. It's digital, right? anywhere. It's digital, right? Right. Right. Right. You could have a small group You could have a small group You could have a small group volunteer to take a night of the week. volunteer to take a night of the week. volunteer to take a night of the week. Uh you could have an individual who's Uh you could have an individual who's Uh you could have an individual who's you know, not able to volunteer for you know, not able to volunteer for you know, not able to volunteer for other physical opportunities, but would other physical opportunities, but would other physical opportunities, but would love to sit behind a keyboard and just love to sit behind a keyboard and just love to sit behind a keyboard and just pray over people pray over people pray over people or get them connected. So, the the I'm or get them connected. So, the the I'm or get them connected. So, the the I'm I'm so glad you brought this up because I'm so glad you brought this up because I'm so glad you brought this up because the churches that start strong, but sort the churches that start strong, but sort the churches that start strong, but sort of maybe peter out or flame out are the of maybe peter out or flame out are the of maybe peter out or flame out are the ones where they put all this burden just ones where they put all this burden just ones where they put all this burden just on the paid staff.

on the paid staff. on the paid staff. The churches that learn how to replicate The churches that learn how to replicate The churches that learn how to replicate and you know, kind of cultivate a and you know, kind of cultivate a and you know, kind of cultivate a volunteer team, equip people. volunteer team, equip people. volunteer team, equip people. This is this is a mission field and it's This is this is a mission field and it's This is this is a mission field and it's it's vast and these are people that are it's vast and these are people that are it's vast and these are people that are actually knocking on our door. actually knocking on our door. actually knocking on our door. It's like one pastor said, this is like It's like one pastor said, this is like It's like one pastor said, this is like old school evangelism, except they're old school evangelism, except they're old school evangelism, except they're knocking on our door knocking on our door knocking on our door not the other way around. not the other way around. not the other way around. Um great opportunity to build a team Um great opportunity to build a team Um great opportunity to build a team around you and those are the churches around you and those are the churches around you and those are the churches that have endurance for the long haul. that have endurance for the long haul. that have endurance for the long haul. Yeah, I think that's such a good Yeah, I think that's such a good Yeah, I think that's such a good reminder and it's so easy to see when reminder and it's so easy to see when reminder and it's so easy to see when you know, you're the person getting that you know, you're the person getting that you know, you're the person getting that message, it's so hard to see the message, it's so hard to see the message, it's so hard to see the difference when you're sending the difference when you're sending the difference when you're sending the message because you're busy and you're message because you're busy and you're message because you're busy and you're like, "Hey, just join us Sunday 9:00 and like, "Hey, just join us Sunday 9:00 and like, "Hey, just join us Sunday 9:00 and 11:00 and we'll see you then." Right? Um 11:00 and we'll see you then." Right? Um 11:00 and we'll see you then." Right? Um is there a difference have you seen in is there a difference have you seen in is there a difference have you seen in responsiveness between the time the responsiveness between the time the responsiveness between the time the message is sent and the time that it's message is sent and the time that it's message is sent and the time that it's responded to? responded to? responded to? Like, for example, I think I think Like, for example, I think I think Like, for example, I think I think William Vanderbloemen has talked about William Vanderbloemen has talked about William Vanderbloemen has talked about talked about this on the the podcast talked about this on the the podcast talked about this on the the podcast before.

before. before. You know, the salesperson who responds You know, the salesperson who responds You know, the salesperson who responds in 90 seconds or so, 90% chance they're in 90 seconds or so, 90% chance they're in 90 seconds or so, 90% chance they're going to make a sale going to make a sale going to make a sale uh and then it just peters off to like uh and then it just peters off to like uh and then it just peters off to like 24 hours 24 hours 24 hours time to respond, 7% chance you're going time to respond, 7% chance you're going time to respond, 7% chance you're going to make the sale or something like that. to make the sale or something like that. to make the sale or something like that. We're not making a sale here, but we're We're not making a sale here, but we're We're not making a sale here, but we're making a connection. Is there something making a connection. Is there something making a connection. Is there something about timeliness? Like somebody can get about timeliness? Like somebody can get about timeliness? Like somebody can get back to them within the hour or the same back to them within the hour or the same back to them within the hour or the same day versus somebody who says, "Oh, I had day versus somebody who says, "Oh, I had day versus somebody who says, "Oh, I had a busy inbox. I got back to them on a busy inbox. I got back to them on a busy inbox. I got back to them on Wednesday even though the message came Wednesday even though the message came Wednesday even though the message came in on Monday." in on Monday." in on Monday." Carey, I I would say our data confirms Carey, I I would say our data confirms Carey, I I would say our data confirms over and over again time is the number over and over again time is the number over and over again time is the number one factor in getting a response. one factor in getting a response. one factor in getting a response. So, if you can respond to that person in So, if you can respond to that person in So, if you can respond to that person in the first 10 to 30 minutes the first 10 to 30 minutes the first 10 to 30 minutes cuz they're they're in that mindset, cuz they're they're in that mindset, cuz they're they're in that mindset, right? They just searched Google or they right? They just searched Google or they right? They just searched Google or they just just just stopped to scroll on Instagram because stopped to scroll on Instagram because stopped to scroll on Instagram because of what they saw. They're thinking about of what they saw. They're thinking about of what they saw. They're thinking about it. So, if you can get to them quickly it. So, if you can get to them quickly it. So, if you can get to them quickly your chance of engagement goes way way your chance of engagement goes way way your chance of engagement goes way way up. Um the problem is what do you do if up. Um the problem is what do you do if up. Um the problem is what do you do if that came in at 2:00 a.m.? that came in at 2:00 a.m.? that came in at 2:00 a.m.? And you know, you have like a day job.

And you know, you have like a day job. And you know, you have like a day job. And so And so And so um there there is a place to again maybe um there there is a place to again maybe um there there is a place to again maybe schedule coverage here. schedule coverage here. schedule coverage here. But that doesn't come without its, you But that doesn't come without its, you But that doesn't come without its, you know, complexities. know, complexities. know, complexities. This by the way is an area where um we This by the way is an area where um we This by the way is an area where um we see some ministries doing great work see some ministries doing great work see some ministries doing great work with back to AI with back to AI with back to AI on how we might receive that message on how we might receive that message on how we might receive that message respond to the person with "Hey, we're respond to the person with "Hey, we're respond to the person with "Hey, we're working to get you connected to the working to get you connected to the working to get you connected to the right person, but in the meantime right person, but in the meantime right person, but in the meantime here's something that would encourage here's something that would encourage here's something that would encourage you. Here's a video. Here's a message." you. Here's a video. Here's a message." you. Here's a video. Here's a message." Um that that strategy we're finding is Um that that strategy we're finding is Um that that strategy we're finding is is quite helpful. is quite helpful. is quite helpful. Once again, we see this in the Once again, we see this in the Once again, we see this in the commercial world all the time. commercial world all the time. commercial world all the time. You know, thanks for calling or thanks You know, thanks for calling or thanks You know, thanks for calling or thanks for trying our live chat. We're we'll for trying our live chat. We're we'll for trying our live chat. We're we'll get to you. get to you. get to you. Um one one of my one of my son's buying Um one one of my one of my son's buying Um one one of my one of my son's buying a truck uh as we speak and uh I was a truck uh as we speak and uh I was a truck uh as we speak and uh I was showing my wife the truck and uh I just showing my wife the truck and uh I just showing my wife the truck and uh I just pointed the screen at her and she goes, pointed the screen at her and she goes, pointed the screen at her and she goes, "Uh can't see it." I looked at big live "Uh can't see it." I looked at big live "Uh can't see it." I looked at big live chat bubble all AI-powered. "Hey, I'm chat bubble all AI-powered. "Hey, I'm chat bubble all AI-powered. "Hey, I'm right here. Do you want to buy a truck?"

right here. Do you want to buy a truck?" right here. Do you want to buy a truck?" It's like actually I don't. So, I click It's like actually I don't. So, I click It's like actually I don't. So, I click that off. But you're right, the world that off. But you're right, the world that off. But you're right, the world has gone there. Brad, anything else has gone there. Brad, anything else has gone there. Brad, anything else about churches? Cuz what it sounds like about churches? Cuz what it sounds like about churches? Cuz what it sounds like is and this is this what gives me hope, is and this is this what gives me hope, is and this is this what gives me hope, one of the reasons I do this podcast is one of the reasons I do this podcast is one of the reasons I do this podcast is a lot of people want to connect with a lot of people want to connect with a lot of people want to connect with God. They want to connect with Jesus. God. They want to connect with Jesus. God. They want to connect with Jesus. The church sometimes misses that stuff. The church sometimes misses that stuff. The church sometimes misses that stuff. And we got to close the gap. Any other And we got to close the gap. Any other And we got to close the gap. Any other best practices you've seen in closing best practices you've seen in closing best practices you've seen in closing the gap between the people who would go the gap between the people who would go the gap between the people who would go to church if they could connect and to church if they could connect and to church if they could connect and would love to meet Jesus and the would love to meet Jesus and the would love to meet Jesus and the churches that are supposed to bring churches that are supposed to bring churches that are supposed to bring people to Jesus. Anything else to close people to Jesus. Anything else to close people to Jesus. Anything else to close that gap? that gap? that gap? Well, you know, Carey, we talked a Well, you know, Carey, we talked a Well, you know, Carey, we talked a little bit about some lessons from little bit about some lessons from little bit about some lessons from business and whatnot. Um marketers and business and whatnot. Um marketers and business and whatnot. Um marketers and customer success people know that the customer success people know that the customer success people know that the cheapest customer to get is the one you cheapest customer to get is the one you cheapest customer to get is the one you already have. And so what that means is already have. And so what that means is already have. And so what that means is there's there's there's an importance on retention an importance on retention an importance on retention and caring for and engaging with and caring for and engaging with and caring for and engaging with the the individuals that are already the the individuals that are already the the individuals that are already part of your family. part of your family. part of your family. And in the church world we call that And in the church world we call that And in the church world we call that back door versus front door.

back door versus front door. back door versus front door. Um and we've seen a lot of erosion in Um and we've seen a lot of erosion in Um and we've seen a lot of erosion in our churches. our churches. our churches. Um you and I just spent some time Um you and I just spent some time Um you and I just spent some time talking about explorers, like new talking about explorers, like new talking about explorers, like new connections coming in. connections coming in. connections coming in. But let me give you one more sobering But let me give you one more sobering But let me give you one more sobering stat that we've heard. In a lot of our stat that we've heard. In a lot of our stat that we've heard. In a lot of our churches who receive these inbound churches who receive these inbound churches who receive these inbound Google searches or social media Google searches or social media Google searches or social media inquiries, inquiries, inquiries, as many as 40% of those come from people as many as 40% of those come from people as many as 40% of those come from people who are already churched. who are already churched. who are already churched. Um Um Um so let me let me explain that. So that so let me let me explain that. So that so let me let me explain that. So that means that someone went to Google means that someone went to Google means that someone went to Google and for example said, I I may be feeling and for example said, I I may be feeling and for example said, I I may be feeling anxious or I may be having problems in anxious or I may be having problems in anxious or I may be having problems in my marriage my marriage my marriage or I don't understand Jesus fully or I don't understand Jesus fully or I don't understand Jesus fully and they felt more comfortable going to and they felt more comfortable going to and they felt more comfortable going to Google with that question than they did Google with that question than they did Google with that question than they did going to someone in their church with going to someone in their church with going to someone in their church with that same question. that same question. that same question. And so we have an opportunity in our And so we have an opportunity in our And so we have an opportunity in our churches, I think, to churches, I think, to churches, I think, to um understand that the customer journey, um understand that the customer journey, um understand that the customer journey, the funnel, so to speak, doesn't end the funnel, so to speak, doesn't end the funnel, so to speak, doesn't end when they just show up for first visit, when they just show up for first visit, when they just show up for first visit, second visit. This is one of the reasons second visit. This is one of the reasons second visit. This is one of the reasons why we're putting as much or more why we're putting as much or more why we're putting as much or more emphasis on emphasis on emphasis on a relational communications tool a relational communications tool a relational communications tool that we provide uh through Glue.

that we provide uh through Glue. that we provide uh through Glue. Um there's a free texting and and I know Um there's a free texting and and I know Um there's a free texting and and I know that sounds very administrative, that sounds very administrative, that sounds very administrative, but we do it for a very specific reason, but we do it for a very specific reason, but we do it for a very specific reason, and that is and that is and that is um if you can help your church move from um if you can help your church move from um if you can help your church move from just being consumption to being just being consumption to being just being consumption to being connection, connection, connection, you have a much better chance of staying you have a much better chance of staying you have a much better chance of staying engaged with those people so that when engaged with those people so that when engaged with those people so that when life does inevitably happen, life does inevitably happen, life does inevitably happen, they feel more comfortable reaching in they feel more comfortable reaching in they feel more comfortable reaching in than reaching out. So, than reaching out. So, than reaching out. So, you know, running you know, running you know, running uh personalized engagement uh playbooks uh personalized engagement uh playbooks uh personalized engagement uh playbooks and templates and prayer series and all and templates and prayer series and all and templates and prayer series and all those sorts of things those sorts of things those sorts of things really simple to implement, but a lot of really simple to implement, but a lot of really simple to implement, but a lot of the work that we're seeing great, you the work that we're seeing great, you the work that we're seeing great, you know, churches accomplish that are know, churches accomplish that are know, churches accomplish that are really winning here really winning here really winning here is using technology yes to reach people is using technology yes to reach people is using technology yes to reach people from the outside, from the outside, from the outside, but also continue reaching people who but also continue reaching people who but also continue reaching people who are in our congregations are in our congregations are in our congregations um who are in many I hate to say it, but um who are in many I hate to say it, but um who are in many I hate to say it, but they're always just one foot out. They they're always just one foot out. They they're always just one foot out. They It wouldn't take much for a lot of It wouldn't take much for a lot of It wouldn't take much for a lot of people to people to people to find another avenue to help them when find another avenue to help them when find another avenue to help them when life gets hard.

life gets hard. life gets hard. Um so, I think that's 40 million nuns. Um so, I think that's 40 million nuns. Um so, I think that's 40 million nuns. Like Like Like 40 million people who used to go to 40 million people who used to go to 40 million people who used to go to church in the US who just stopped, church in the US who just stopped, church in the US who just stopped, right? right? right? That's right. That's right. That's right. So true. So true. So true. Um Um Um Brad, anything we haven't covered that Brad, anything we haven't covered that Brad, anything we haven't covered that we should cover? we should cover? we should cover? Well, I think I I use the word curiosity Well, I think I I use the word curiosity Well, I think I I use the word curiosity earlier, and I you know, all the pastors earlier, and I you know, all the pastors earlier, and I you know, all the pastors I get to talk to, I'm most are I get to talk to, I'm most are I get to talk to, I'm most are encouraged and most impressed with those encouraged and most impressed with those encouraged and most impressed with those who are showing creativity about who are showing creativity about who are showing creativity about learning about their people and learning about their people and learning about their people and understanding what's in their world. We understanding what's in their world. We understanding what's in their world. We used to have a phrase used to have a phrase used to have a phrase at my old company, it was an acronym at my old company, it was an acronym at my old company, it was an acronym called NIHITO, n i h i t o, called NIHITO, n i h i t o, called NIHITO, n i h i t o, and it stands for nothing important and it stands for nothing important and it stands for nothing important happens in the office. happens in the office. happens in the office. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And so, it was just a a mindset for us And so, it was just a a mindset for us And so, it was just a a mindset for us to get out, get in the world of those to get out, get in the world of those to get out, get in the world of those people we're trying to serve. people we're trying to serve. people we're trying to serve. And so, I don't I don't I'm not really And so, I don't I don't I'm not really And so, I don't I don't I'm not really concerned if somebody's really excited concerned if somebody's really excited concerned if somebody's really excited about technology about technology about technology or they're a laggard or they're a laggard or they're a laggard to your point, but I would say even to to your point, but I would say even to to your point, but I would say even to our laggard friends, if you could build our laggard friends, if you could build our laggard friends, if you could build in a rhythm in a rhythm in a rhythm of being curious about the people you're of being curious about the people you're of being curious about the people you're already serving and maybe learning more already serving and maybe learning more already serving and maybe learning more about the the ones you wish you could about the the ones you wish you could about the the ones you wish you could serve and reach.

serve and reach. serve and reach. What a transformative mindset that could What a transformative mindset that could What a transformative mindset that could be in the church. be in the church. be in the church. Um I know there's pressures we're all Um I know there's pressures we're all Um I know there's pressures we're all dealing with staff and budgets and dealing with staff and budgets and dealing with staff and budgets and mortgages and all those things, but um mortgages and all those things, but um mortgages and all those things, but um to me that's just a simple profound to me that's just a simple profound to me that's just a simple profound shift in mindset is shift in mindset is shift in mindset is getting out of the office, getting out of the office, getting out of the office, getting in the world of I saw one pastor getting in the world of I saw one pastor getting in the world of I saw one pastor who had a clipboard after service who had a clipboard after service who had a clipboard after service and he said, I would love to have a and he said, I would love to have a and he said, I would love to have a bring your pastor to work day bring your pastor to work day bring your pastor to work day and anybody who wants to have me come and anybody who wants to have me come and anybody who wants to have me come visit your office, come down front and visit your office, come down front and visit your office, come down front and sign up. sign up. sign up. And I think every week he picked one of And I think every week he picked one of And I think every week he picked one of them and he would go just hang out with them and he would go just hang out with them and he would go just hang out with you in the office. And he was like, it you in the office. And he was like, it you in the office. And he was like, it was mind-blowing to me the stuff I got was mind-blowing to me the stuff I got was mind-blowing to me the stuff I got to see in a workplace cuz I'm never to see in a workplace cuz I'm never to see in a workplace cuz I'm never there. there. there. So, I love that. So, I love that. So, I love that. brand new mantra. I wrote that down. brand new mantra. I wrote that down. brand new mantra. I wrote that down. "Nahito, nothing important happens in "Nahito, nothing important happens in "Nahito, nothing important happens in the office." the office." the office." I'm going to hang on to that. Man, for I'm going to hang on to that. Man, for I'm going to hang on to that. Man, for all of you who listen to the end of an all of you who listen to the end of an all of you who listen to the end of an interview, that was golden worth the interview, that was golden worth the interview, that was golden worth the price of admission alone. That's so price of admission alone. That's so price of admission alone. That's so good. It's so true. People ask me, "Why good. It's so true. People ask me, "Why good. It's so true. People ask me, "Why do you do so much speaking?" It's like, do you do so much speaking?" It's like, do you do so much speaking?" It's like, well, I can only do so much here in my well, I can only do so much here in my well, I can only do so much here in my office, you know? Like I I I think I office, you know? Like I I I think I office, you know? Like I I I think I know, but when you meet and you hear the know, but when you meet and you hear the know, but when you meet and you hear the stories and I love getting out there and stories and I love getting out there and stories and I love getting out there and meeting leaders and connecting with them meeting leaders and connecting with them meeting leaders and connecting with them one-on-one one-on-one one-on-one and hearing their stories. And that's and hearing their stories. And that's and hearing their stories. And that's true podcast listeners. Brad, this is so true podcast listeners. Brad, this is so true podcast listeners. Brad, this is so good. I want to thank you so much. So, good. I want to thank you so much. So, good. I want to thank you so much. So, uh tell us, where can people find you uh tell us, where can people find you uh tell us, where can people find you online and uh where can people learn online and uh where can people learn online and uh where can people learn more?

more? more? Well, I'm on all the normal social Well, I'm on all the normal social Well, I'm on all the normal social channels myself and then for Gloo, you channels myself and then for Gloo, you channels myself and then for Gloo, you know, our website is Gloo and that's g l know, our website is Gloo and that's g l know, our website is Gloo and that's g l o o. We're good at a lot of things, just o o. We're good at a lot of things, just o o. We're good at a lot of things, just not great at spelling, but it sounds not great at spelling, but it sounds not great at spelling, but it sounds like the sticky stuff glue. Glue.us, like the sticky stuff glue. Glue.us, like the sticky stuff glue. Glue.us, that's our website. Um and certainly any that's our website. Um and certainly any that's our website. Um and certainly any church leaders that haven't already been church leaders that haven't already been church leaders that haven't already been there, there's a lot of great free there, there's a lot of great free there, there's a lot of great free things that you can take advantage of things that you can take advantage of things that you can take advantage of there. there. there. Um but we need it we need every leader, Um but we need it we need every leader, Um but we need it we need every leader, you know, we can possibly you know, we can possibly you know, we can possibly attract to uh help us understand what's attract to uh help us understand what's attract to uh help us understand what's working today in the in culture and uh working today in the in culture and uh working today in the in culture and uh we're we're particularly excited, Carey, we're we're particularly excited, Carey, we're we're particularly excited, Carey, over the next several months we're going over the next several months we're going over the next several months we're going to be talking more to be talking more to be talking more with you, I know, about the state of the with you, I know, about the state of the with you, I know, about the state of the church 2025. church 2025. church 2025. Um we're we're teeing up what we think Um we're we're teeing up what we think Um we're we're teeing up what we think could be the biggest could be the biggest could be the biggest single initiative of the church in North single initiative of the church in North single initiative of the church in North America next year. America next year. America next year. So, we'd love to invite everybody get So, we'd love to invite everybody get So, we'd love to invite everybody get connected to what's going on. connected to what's going on. connected to what's going on. Uh so hopefully we can advance the Uh so hopefully we can advance the Uh so hopefully we can advance the collective might of the church as we collective might of the church as we collective might of the church as we like to say. like to say. like to say. Brad, thank you so much. Brad, thank you so much. Brad, thank you so much. Thanks, Carey. Great to be with you.