What the Church Gets Wrong About Strength—Derwin Gray Gets Honest

I never knew that the hardest part of I never knew that the hardest part of leading a church would be the staff. leading a church would be the staff. leading a church would be the staff. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. How has that showed up for you? How has that showed up for you? How has that showed up for you? Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Woo, 3 years ago we had to transition Woo, 3 years ago we had to transition Woo, 3 years ago we had to transition some people off staff. It was painful. some people off staff. It was painful. some people off staff. It was painful. Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt and and and tears. tears. tears. Um Um Um you know, it's you know, it's you know, it's it's hard where we've had to remove it's hard where we've had to remove it's hard where we've had to remove people for moral issues. That's that's people for moral issues. That's that's people for moral issues. That's that's challenging. challenging. challenging. Um it's hard when um people don't trust Um it's hard when um people don't trust Um it's hard when um people don't trust you you you or people lie about you. or people lie about you. or people lie about you. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Podcast on Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Podcast on Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Podcast on YouTube. Today, I sit down with ex-NFL YouTube. Today, I sit down with ex-NFL YouTube. Today, I sit down with ex-NFL player Derwin Gray and we talk about player Derwin Gray and we talk about player Derwin Gray and we talk about toxic masculinity. Where does it show up toxic masculinity. Where does it show up toxic masculinity. Where does it show up in sports? Where does it show up in the in sports? Where does it show up in the in sports? Where does it show up in the church? How do you get out of it? What church? How do you get out of it? What church? How do you get out of it? What does real masculinity look like? Plus, does real masculinity look like? Plus, does real masculinity look like? Plus, we talk about a lot of other things as we talk about a lot of other things as we talk about a lot of other things as well. Hey, if you're new here, make sure well. Hey, if you're new here, make sure well. Hey, if you're new here, make sure you subscribe and if you enjoy this you subscribe and if you enjoy this you subscribe and if you enjoy this episode, leave a comment, like the episode, leave a comment, like the episode, leave a comment, like the conversation. We would love to have you conversation. We would love to have you conversation. We would love to have you as part of the conversation here. But as part of the conversation here. But as part of the conversation here. But first, a word from our very carefully first, a word from our very carefully first, a word from our very carefully chosen partners and then my conversation chosen partners and then my conversation chosen partners and then my conversation with Derwin Gray. Today's episode is with Derwin Gray. Today's episode is with Derwin Gray. Today's episode is brought to you by BELAY. Well, is brought to you by BELAY. Well, is brought to you by BELAY. Well, is business really a badge of honor? Are business really a badge of honor? Are business really a badge of honor? Are the best leaders really the busiest or the best leaders really the busiest or the best leaders really the busiest or are they simply the most intentional?

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e y, to 55123. e y, to 55123. It's time to get your free download so It's time to get your free download so It's time to get your free download so you can accomplish more by juggling you can accomplish more by juggling you can accomplish more by juggling less. Well, welcome to the podcast. less. Well, welcome to the podcast. less. Well, welcome to the podcast. We're going to get to today's interview We're going to get to today's interview We're going to get to today's interview in just a moment, but one of my favorite in just a moment, but one of my favorite in just a moment, but one of my favorite segments this year has been the state of segments this year has been the state of segments this year has been the state of the church update. We do one of these a the church update. We do one of these a the church update. We do one of these a month, and David Kinnaman is here with month, and David Kinnaman is here with month, and David Kinnaman is here with me. He is the CEO of the Barna Group, me. He is the CEO of the Barna Group, me. He is the CEO of the Barna Group, and David has been doing with the Barna and David has been doing with the Barna and David has been doing with the Barna team a lot of research this year. team a lot of research this year. team a lot of research this year. There's fresh data every single month to There's fresh data every single month to There's fresh data every single month to profile the state of the church, and profile the state of the church, and profile the state of the church, and today today today we're going to look at how pastors are we're going to look at how pastors are we're going to look at how pastors are doing. This is a story that you and I doing. This is a story that you and I doing. This is a story that you and I have tracked for years, David. have tracked for years, David. have tracked for years, David. Um, pastors obviously took a huge hit Um, pastors obviously took a huge hit Um, pastors obviously took a huge hit during COVID. Are they flourishing? For during COVID. Are they flourishing? For during COVID. Are they flourishing? For a while we weren't, but you have some a while we weren't, but you have some a while we weren't, but you have some new metrics that I'd love you to walk us new metrics that I'd love you to walk us new metrics that I'd love you to walk us through, and it's it's it's not bad through, and it's it's it's not bad through, and it's it's it's not bad news, actually. It's encouraging. news, actually. It's encouraging. news, actually. It's encouraging. It is encouraging. Yeah, and we have It is encouraging. Yeah, and we have It is encouraging. Yeah, and we have seen some hard days for pastors as we've seen some hard days for pastors as we've seen some hard days for pastors as we've been been been hearing from them and talking to them, hearing from them and talking to them, hearing from them and talking to them, especially over the last 4 or 5 years, especially over the last 4 or 5 years, especially over the last 4 or 5 years, um, you know, the the low point that we um, you know, the the low point that we um, you know, the the low point that we saw after COVID. But, we're here with saw after COVID. But, we're here with saw after COVID. But, we're here with some new metrics on flourishing, and some new metrics on flourishing, and some new metrics on flourishing, and what we're proud to report is the what we're proud to report is the what we're proud to report is the pastors are actually doing uh, pretty pastors are actually doing uh, pretty pastors are actually doing uh, pretty well overall. Um, we we we look at some well overall. Um, we we we look at some well overall. Um, we we we look at some of the different ways that they're uh, of the different ways that they're uh, of the different ways that they're uh, they're experiencing relationships and they're experiencing relationships and they're experiencing relationships and health and financial and vocational and health and financial and vocational and health and financial and vocational and faith flourishing. And overall, the two faith flourishing. And overall, the two faith flourishing. And overall, the two areas where they seem to be doing uh, as areas where they seem to be doing uh, as areas where they seem to be doing uh, as well or better than the national average well or better than the national average well or better than the national average is in terms of faith, not surprisingly.

is in terms of faith, not surprisingly. is in terms of faith, not surprisingly. Hopefully, hopefully we are spiritually Hopefully, hopefully we are spiritually Hopefully, hopefully we are spiritually relatively healthy. relatively healthy. relatively healthy. That's right. At least at least they're That's right. At least at least they're That's right. At least at least they're telling us so. And uh and then finances, telling us so. And uh and then finances, telling us so. And uh and then finances, which is a surprise because uh the it's which is a surprise because uh the it's which is a surprise because uh the it's most pastors the average income for a most pastors the average income for a most pastors the average income for a senior pastor is around 76,000, senior pastor is around 76,000, senior pastor is around 76,000, almost 77,000, just under 77,000. almost 77,000, just under 77,000. almost 77,000, just under 77,000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um 76,782 Um 76,782 Um 76,782 to be precise cuz I know some of you to be precise cuz I know some of you to be precise cuz I know some of you would would care to know. Um and so would would care to know. Um and so would would care to know. Um and so pastors are actually eight points above pastors are actually eight points above pastors are actually eight points above uh the average among all US adults when uh the average among all US adults when uh the average among all US adults when it comes to their self-reported it comes to their self-reported it comes to their self-reported satisfaction with their finances. satisfaction with their finances. satisfaction with their finances. Um so that's the only area where pastors Um so that's the only area where pastors Um so that's the only area where pastors it work. It's like it's fine. Yeah. You it work. It's like it's fine. Yeah. You it work. It's like it's fine. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I did an informal poll know, it's funny. I did an informal poll know, it's funny. I did an informal poll inside the Art of Leadership Academy and inside the Art of Leadership Academy and inside the Art of Leadership Academy and I'm like, would you consider yourself I'm like, would you consider yourself I'm like, would you consider yourself underpaid, adequately paid, overpaid? underpaid, adequately paid, overpaid? underpaid, adequately paid, overpaid? You know, very few overpaid. Most people You know, very few overpaid. Most people You know, very few overpaid. Most people are like, yeah, I'm pretty happy. I'm are like, yeah, I'm pretty happy. I'm are like, yeah, I'm pretty happy. I'm not making a ton of money, but like I'm not making a ton of money, but like I'm not making a ton of money, but like I'm pretty happy doing this, which is really pretty happy doing this, which is really pretty happy doing this, which is really really surprising. So they're really surprising. So they're really surprising. So they're out-punting the population in out-punting the population in out-punting the population in flourishing on those two points. flourishing on those two points. flourishing on those two points. Yeah, that's both in terms of faith and Yeah, that's both in terms of faith and Yeah, that's both in terms of faith and in terms of finances. And uh I think in terms of finances. And uh I think in terms of finances. And uh I think that it does speak to the kind of um that it does speak to the kind of um that it does speak to the kind of um satisfaction and contentment that satisfaction and contentment that satisfaction and contentment that pastors uh you know, they're not they're pastors uh you know, they're not they're pastors uh you know, they're not they're not uh motivated by money.

not uh motivated by money. not uh motivated by money. Um and um Um and um Um and um um and I think I just think that's a um and I think I just think that's a um and I think I just think that's a really good sign. And and then again, really good sign. And and then again, really good sign. And and then again, you look at the overall flourishing you look at the overall flourishing you look at the overall flourishing score, which is another area we look at score, which is another area we look at score, which is another area we look at kind of combining these these different kind of combining these these different kind of combining these these different dimensions, and pastors come out at 76. dimensions, and pastors come out at 76. dimensions, and pastors come out at 76. They index at 76 on a scale of 1 to 100. They index at 76 on a scale of 1 to 100. They index at 76 on a scale of 1 to 100. Um the US average is 71, so they're five Um the US average is 71, so they're five Um the US average is 71, so they're five points higher than the US average among points higher than the US average among points higher than the US average among all adults, but they're actually five all adults, but they're actually five all adults, but they're actually five points lower than practicing Christians points lower than practicing Christians points lower than practicing Christians overall. So this is kind of a sum total overall. So this is kind of a sum total overall. So this is kind of a sum total of of these different dimensions. of of these different dimensions. of of these different dimensions. So what is that? Like leadership is So what is that? Like leadership is So what is that? Like leadership is hard? Is Is that what that is? Or do you hard? Is Is that what that is? Or do you hard? Is Is that what that is? Or do you know? know? know? Yeah, I think that's true. Well, we Yeah, I think that's true. Well, we Yeah, I think that's true. Well, we could dive into maybe some of the things could dive into maybe some of the things could dive into maybe some of the things that that weigh down that that weigh down that that weigh down Yeah, some of the things that weigh down Yeah, some of the things that weigh down Yeah, some of the things that weigh down their um their overall flourishing. So their um their overall flourishing. So their um their overall flourishing. So relational flourishing is only at 67. It relational flourishing is only at 67. It relational flourishing is only at 67. It is the area that pastors are lowest on is the area that pastors are lowest on is the area that pastors are lowest on overall. Um overall. Um overall. Um the US adults at 79, practicing the US adults at 79, practicing the US adults at 79, practicing Christians at 85. Uh so this is an area Christians at 85. Uh so this is an area Christians at 85. Uh so this is an area where I think we really have to pay where I think we really have to pay where I think we really have to pay attention to. Um they're most likely to attention to. Um they're most likely to attention to. Um they're most likely to talk about uh need help with leadership talk about uh need help with leadership talk about uh need help with leadership development, spiritual growth, and development, spiritual growth, and development, spiritual growth, and finances finances finances uh where they demonstrate relative uh where they demonstrate relative uh where they demonstrate relative strength. So, you know, we're going to strength. So, you know, we're going to strength. So, you know, we're going to talk more about pastors and talk more about pastors and talk more about pastors and relationships in our in our next month's relationships in our in our next month's relationships in our in our next month's episode of State of the Church, but just episode of State of the Church, but just episode of State of the Church, but just recognizing that overall well-being. So, recognizing that overall well-being. So, recognizing that overall well-being. So, this is So, so so the two areas in this is So, so so the two areas in this is So, so so the two areas in particular where they're flourishing are particular where they're flourishing are particular where they're flourishing are faith and finances. The two area where faith and finances. The two area where faith and finances. The two area where they're really um behind the curve are they're really um behind the curve are they're really um behind the curve are relationships and overall uh kind of relationships and overall uh kind of relationships and overall uh kind of well-being. That's their physical well-being. That's their physical well-being. That's their physical well-being and their mental well-being.

well-being and their mental well-being. well-being and their mental well-being. Uh so I think it tells us something Uh so I think it tells us something Uh so I think it tells us something about the kind of uh cost of leadership, about the kind of uh cost of leadership, about the kind of uh cost of leadership, um the kind of the isolating effects of um the kind of the isolating effects of um the kind of the isolating effects of leadership, some of the challenges that leadership, some of the challenges that leadership, some of the challenges that pastors have. And again, just the pastors have. And again, just the pastors have. And again, just the encouragement that we would give to encouragement that we would give to encouragement that we would give to leaders is now that we're, you know, on leaders is now that we're, you know, on leaders is now that we're, you know, on the 5 years out from the pandemic and the 5 years out from the pandemic and the 5 years out from the pandemic and there's a kind of a whole new era of there's a kind of a whole new era of there's a kind of a whole new era of ministry, a lot of great spiritual um ministry, a lot of great spiritual um ministry, a lot of great spiritual um up, you know, upswell among especially up, you know, upswell among especially up, you know, upswell among especially among young people. Um just make sure among young people. Um just make sure among young people. Um just make sure you take really good care of yourselves you take really good care of yourselves you take really good care of yourselves relationally. Make sure you take really relationally. Make sure you take really relationally. Make sure you take really good care of yourselves physically and good care of yourselves physically and good care of yourselves physically and and certainly your mental well-being. Uh and certainly your mental well-being. Uh and certainly your mental well-being. Uh we need you in this for the long haul, we need you in this for the long haul, we need you in this for the long haul, and I think this is a an important and I think this is a an important and I think this is a an important moment for pastors to do a good a good moment for pastors to do a good a good moment for pastors to do a good a good check and make sure that you have the check and make sure that you have the check and make sure that you have the support systems around you with your support systems around you with your support systems around you with your with your leadership team and and your with your leadership team and and your with your leadership team and and your friends and your family uh to make sure friends and your family uh to make sure friends and your family uh to make sure that you're in in a good space for this that you're in in a good space for this that you're in in a good space for this next run. Make sure this summer in next run. Make sure this summer in next run. Make sure this summer in particular, you know, you're taking good particular, you know, you're taking good particular, you know, you're taking good care of yourself uh for uh what God has care of yourself uh for uh what God has care of yourself uh for uh what God has ahead for you. ahead for you. ahead for you. Yeah, I always see the summer as an Yeah, I always see the summer as an Yeah, I always see the summer as an opportunity to reboot, you know, in opportunity to reboot, you know, in opportunity to reboot, you know, in terms of maybe taking up, you know, terms of maybe taking up, you know, terms of maybe taking up, you know, maybe you're going to start working out maybe you're going to start working out maybe you're going to start working out or uh join a gym or build those or uh join a gym or build those or uh join a gym or build those friendships. Like have a few barbecues friendships. Like have a few barbecues friendships. Like have a few barbecues in your backyard and just reach out to in your backyard and just reach out to in your backyard and just reach out to You only takes a couple of people that You only takes a couple of people that You only takes a couple of people that you have to be close with. We don't You you have to be close with. We don't You you have to be close with. We don't You can't handle 200 people, but you can can't handle 200 people, but you can can't handle 200 people, but you can handle three good friends. Like that handle three good friends. Like that handle three good friends. Like that would be That'd be a great restart.

would be That'd be a great restart. would be That'd be a great restart. David, I love the research you're doing. David, I love the research you're doing. David, I love the research you're doing. I'm encouraged to find some overall I'm encouraged to find some overall I'm encouraged to find some overall encouraging news. Always room for encouraging news. Always room for encouraging news. Always room for improvement, but appreciate your improvement, but appreciate your improvement, but appreciate your commitment to pastoral health. I share commitment to pastoral health. I share commitment to pastoral health. I share that. It's one of the reasons we do this that. It's one of the reasons we do this that. It's one of the reasons we do this podcast every week, you know. And so, we podcast every week, you know. And so, we podcast every week, you know. And so, we are releasing with the state of the are releasing with the state of the are releasing with the state of the church new data every single month. And church new data every single month. And church new data every single month. And it's fresh insight. You're not going to it's fresh insight. You're not going to it's fresh insight. You're not going to find old stats. Go to state of the find old stats. Go to state of the find old stats. Go to state of the church.com/carey church.com/carey church.com/carey and David and I will be doing these and David and I will be doing these and David and I will be doing these segments every single month on the segments every single month on the segments every single month on the podcast. David, until next time. Thank podcast. David, until next time. Thank podcast. David, until next time. Thank you so much. you so much. you so much. Thanks, Carey. Great to be here. Thanks, Carey. Great to be here. Thanks, Carey. Great to be here. Derwin, good to be connected again. Derwin, good to be connected again. Derwin, good to be connected again. Good to see you, my Canadian friend. One Good to see you, my Canadian friend. One Good to see you, my Canadian friend. One of the nicest human beings I've ever of the nicest human beings I've ever of the nicest human beings I've ever met. met. met. Well, I'm so grateful for our Well, I'm so grateful for our Well, I'm so grateful for our friendship. We met a long, long time friendship. We met a long, long time friendship. We met a long, long time ago. ago. ago. Long time ago. Long time ago. Long time ago. Yeah, but it's really great to see you. Yeah, but it's really great to see you. Yeah, but it's really great to see you. Thanks for, you know, you're trending Thanks for, you know, you're trending Thanks for, you know, you're trending toward long obedience in the same toward long obedience in the same toward long obedience in the same direction. direction. direction. We need more and more of that in the We need more and more of that in the We need more and more of that in the church. And, you know, you've done God's church. And, you know, you've done God's church. And, you know, you've done God's used you to do so much in your ministry. used you to do so much in your ministry. used you to do so much in your ministry. And really grateful to have you back.

And really grateful to have you back. And really grateful to have you back. So, you know, you wrote a book recently So, you know, you wrote a book recently So, you know, you wrote a book recently called Lit Up With Love. And I just want called Lit Up With Love. And I just want called Lit Up With Love. And I just want to kind of drive a truck through that. to kind of drive a truck through that. to kind of drive a truck through that. I'm glad you wrote it. I don't think I'm glad you wrote it. I don't think I'm glad you wrote it. I don't think we're lit up with love these days, we're lit up with love these days, we're lit up with love these days, buddy, in the church. Like, you know, buddy, in the church. Like, you know, buddy, in the church. Like, you know, I'm looking around and I'm seeing a lot I'm looking around and I'm seeing a lot I'm looking around and I'm seeing a lot of hate. I'm seeing a lot of uh flexing. of hate. I'm seeing a lot of uh flexing. of hate. I'm seeing a lot of uh flexing. I'm seeing a lot of bullying. Uh what I'm seeing a lot of bullying. Uh what I'm seeing a lot of bullying. Uh what what How do you read the mood of the what How do you read the mood of the what How do you read the mood of the church these days? church these days? church these days? Yeah, you you you know, you know, Carey, Yeah, you you you know, you know, Carey, Yeah, you you you know, you know, Carey, so so so I will say this is typically the bad I will say this is typically the bad I will say this is typically the bad characters tend to get a lot of the characters tend to get a lot of the characters tend to get a lot of the airways and the clicks. airways and the clicks. airways and the clicks. Yes. Yes. Yes. And a lot of like you see the bad And a lot of like you see the bad And a lot of like you see the bad because it's easy. And for some reason because it's easy. And for some reason because it's easy. And for some reason as human beings, we like looking at as human beings, we like looking at as human beings, we like looking at train wrecks. I don't know if it fits train wrecks. I don't know if it fits train wrecks. I don't know if it fits into into into Yeah, when was the last time you passed Yeah, when was the last time you passed Yeah, when was the last time you passed a car a car a car accident, like a wreck on the highway, accident, like a wreck on the highway, accident, like a wreck on the highway, and didn't look? and didn't look? and didn't look? And didn't look, right? Yeah, yeah, so And didn't look, right? Yeah, yeah, so And didn't look, right? Yeah, yeah, so so so so I do believe though, Carey. I believe I do believe though, Carey. I believe I do believe though, Carey. I believe that there's like this quiet move of God that there's like this quiet move of God that there's like this quiet move of God that is happening in a way that that is happening in a way that that is happening in a way that particularly in American context that is particularly in American context that is particularly in American context that is separated from what we would think where separated from what we would think where separated from what we would think where it's it's it's happening. Like we're having teenagers happening. Like we're having teenagers happening. Like we're having teenagers leading their parents to Christ, leading leading their parents to Christ, leading leading their parents to Christ, leading their parents to church. We're having their parents to church. We're having their parents to church. We're having young adults. And as you know, young young adults. And as you know, young young adults. And as you know, young adults are fueling uh Bible sales. Uh adults are fueling uh Bible sales. Uh adults are fueling uh Bible sales. Uh I'm seeing things happening uh with I'm seeing things happening uh with I'm seeing things happening uh with people from other countries who are

people from other countries who are people from other countries who are infused with the gospel. I'm also seeing infused with the gospel. I'm also seeing infused with the gospel. I'm also seeing people who are attracted to our church people who are attracted to our church people who are attracted to our church who go, "You know what? who go, "You know what? who go, "You know what? I don't want secular progressive Jesus. I don't want secular progressive Jesus. I don't want secular progressive Jesus. I don't want Republican MAGA Jesus. Will I don't want Republican MAGA Jesus. Will I don't want Republican MAGA Jesus. Will Will you teach me about the Jesus of Will you teach me about the Jesus of Will you teach me about the Jesus of scripture that I read?" And so we're scripture that I read?" And so we're scripture that I read?" And so we're seeing a lot of pe- pe- people who are seeing a lot of pe- pe- people who are seeing a lot of pe- pe- people who are wanting to be a part of that. But on the wanting to be a part of that. But on the wanting to be a part of that. But on the flip side though flip side though flip side though is I do think the mood is one in which is I do think the mood is one in which is I do think the mood is one in which like this uh like this uh like this uh this warped view of masculinity is like, this warped view of masculinity is like, this warped view of masculinity is like, you know, "I'm big and I'm strong and you know, "I'm big and I'm strong and you know, "I'm big and I'm strong and I'm tough and I tell my way and I kick I'm tough and I tell my way and I kick I'm tough and I tell my way and I kick the door down." And it's it's like the door down." And it's it's like the door down." And it's it's like literally the opposite of Jesus. literally the opposite of Jesus. literally the opposite of Jesus. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, you You know, you You know, you Jesus, right? No, don't don't get me Jesus, right? No, don't don't get me Jesus, right? No, don't don't get me wrong. In John 2, Jesus forms a whip. wrong. In John 2, Jesus forms a whip. wrong. In John 2, Jesus forms a whip. He runs the money changers out in He runs the money changers out in He runs the money changers out in fulfillment of a prophecy in the book of fulfillment of a prophecy in the book of fulfillment of a prophecy in the book of Isaiah. You turn my father's house into Isaiah. You turn my father's house into Isaiah. You turn my father's house into a den of thieves. It should be a house a den of thieves. It should be a house a den of thieves. It should be a house of prayer for all nations. I get that.

of prayer for all nations. I get that. of prayer for all nations. I get that. But this bravado and this bullying is But this bravado and this bullying is But this bravado and this bullying is not the suffering servant. On the cross, not the suffering servant. On the cross, not the suffering servant. On the cross, Jesus won by what looked like a loss. Jesus won by what looked like a loss. Jesus won by what looked like a loss. Mhm. All right. Well, I'm glad you Mhm. All right. Well, I'm glad you Mhm. All right. Well, I'm glad you raised toxic mas- masculinity. I wasn't raised toxic mas- masculinity. I wasn't raised toxic mas- masculinity. I wasn't ready to go there, but let's go there, ready to go there, but let's go there, ready to go there, but let's go there, Derwin. Derwin. Derwin. All right. So, I mean, dude, you're All right. So, I mean, dude, you're All right. So, I mean, dude, you're ex-NFL. You ex-NFL. You ex-NFL. You you know, we spent a lot of time in you know, we spent a lot of time in you know, we spent a lot of time in person. person. person. If you're going to pick who's going to If you're going to pick who's going to If you're going to pick who's going to win the fight, I would go with Derwin. win the fight, I would go with Derwin. win the fight, I would go with Derwin. Put your money on Derwin, okay? Carey's Put your money on Derwin, okay? Carey's Put your money on Derwin, okay? Carey's probably going to not going to make it probably going to not going to make it probably going to not going to make it out of the ring. Like dude, you work out of the ring. Like dude, you work out of the ring. Like dude, you work out, you're jacked. You're you're the out, you're jacked. You're you're the out, you're jacked. You're you're the guy who totally could be guy who totally could be guy who totally could be that guy with like, "All right, bros, we that guy with like, "All right, bros, we that guy with like, "All right, bros, we got to do this and you got to get your got to do this and you got to get your got to do this and you got to get your protein and you got to get that." Talk protein and you got to get that." Talk protein and you got to get that." Talk to me about masculinity. to me about masculinity. to me about masculinity. So, So, So, all right, so let me just take a step all right, so let me just take a step all right, so let me just take a step back. So, I've been around long enough back. So, I've been around long enough back. So, I've been around long enough now to where I've seen things, right? now to where I've seen things, right? now to where I've seen things, right? So, So, So, So, when I first became a follower of So, when I first became a follower of So, when I first became a follower of Christ, it was like, in order to be a Christ, it was like, in order to be a Christ, it was like, in order to be a man, you got to get on a horse and you man, you got to get on a horse and you man, you got to get on a horse and you got to ride into the wilderness. And I'm got to ride into the wilderness. And I'm got to ride into the wilderness. And I'm like, wait a minute, guys. I am from the like, wait a minute, guys. I am from the like, wait a minute, guys. I am from the inner city of San Antonio, Texas.

inner city of San Antonio, Texas. inner city of San Antonio, Texas. I am not getting on a horse and riding I am not getting on a horse and riding I am not getting on a horse and riding it into the woods to put on quote be a it into the woods to put on quote be a it into the woods to put on quote be a man. And then, over the years, it turned man. And then, over the years, it turned man. And then, over the years, it turned into almost like, I'm a man. into almost like, I'm a man. into almost like, I'm a man. I I lead by domineering and I've got to I I lead by domineering and I've got to I I lead by domineering and I've got to let you know I'm a man. And as a person let you know I'm a man. And as a person let you know I'm a man. And as a person who didn't grow up in church, I'm like, who didn't grow up in church, I'm like, who didn't grow up in church, I'm like, so, if we want to look at what the so, if we want to look at what the so, if we want to look at what the portrait of a man is, portrait of a man is, portrait of a man is, look to Jesus. Like, he's literally look to Jesus. Like, he's literally look to Jesus. Like, he's literally the prototype of what God meant for the prototype of what God meant for the prototype of what God meant for humanity. He's the last Adam. humanity. He's the last Adam. humanity. He's the last Adam. And when you look at Jesus, the fruit of And when you look at Jesus, the fruit of And when you look at Jesus, the fruit of the spirit characterizes his manhood. the spirit characterizes his manhood. the spirit characterizes his manhood. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. self-control. self-control. He was a sacrificial servant leader, He was a sacrificial servant leader, He was a sacrificial servant leader, right? right? right? He was bold. He was courageous. He was bold. He was courageous. He was bold. He was courageous. But like, kind of like this But like, kind of like this But like, kind of like this bully kind of thing is just weird to me. bully kind of thing is just weird to me. bully kind of thing is just weird to me. But the fruit of the spirit should be But the fruit of the spirit should be But the fruit of the spirit should be the portrait of what it means to be a the portrait of what it means to be a the portrait of what it means to be a man. Love your wives as Christ loved the man. Love your wives as Christ loved the man. Love your wives as Christ loved the church. That is a bloody, sacrificial, church. That is a bloody, sacrificial, church. That is a bloody, sacrificial, life-giving, life-giving, life-giving, forgiving type of a love, right? Um, forgiving type of a love, right? Um, forgiving type of a love, right? Um, strength is not just determined by how strength is not just determined by how strength is not just determined by how much you bench press.

much you bench press. much you bench press. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, You know, um, You know, um, yeah, it's yeah, it's yeah, it's gosh, I hope this sounds right, but it's gosh, I hope this sounds right, but it's gosh, I hope this sounds right, but it's kind of weird as a former NFL player kind of weird as a former NFL player kind of weird as a former NFL player and like you you kind of see these dudes and like you you kind of see these dudes and like you you kind of see these dudes and I'm like, "Hey, man, are you are are and I'm like, "Hey, man, are you are are and I'm like, "Hey, man, are you are are you okay? Like you okay? Like you okay? Like like you got a lot of bravado. Like are like you got a lot of bravado. Like are like you got a lot of bravado. Like are you all right? Like who are you trying you all right? Like who are you trying you all right? Like who are you trying to impress? Did somebody beat you up to impress? Did somebody beat you up to impress? Did somebody beat you up when you were young and and now you want when you were young and and now you want when you were young and and now you want to get everybody back?" So, we got to to get everybody back?" So, we got to to get everybody back?" So, we got to really be careful really be careful really be careful that we don't take a gift that God gives that we don't take a gift that God gives that we don't take a gift that God gives us us us to elevate our childhood brokenness. to elevate our childhood brokenness. to elevate our childhood brokenness. It's like, "I've got a gift. Look at me It's like, "I've got a gift. Look at me It's like, "I've got a gift. Look at me now." Versus, "I've got a gift. Look at now." Versus, "I've got a gift. Look at now." Versus, "I've got a gift. Look at God now." God now." God now." What aspects, you've kind of hinted at What aspects, you've kind of hinted at What aspects, you've kind of hinted at it, but I just want to double-click on it, but I just want to double-click on it, but I just want to double-click on it a little bit, Derwin. What aspects of it a little bit, Derwin. What aspects of it a little bit, Derwin. What aspects of masculinity, when you look around the masculinity, when you look around the masculinity, when you look around the culture or the NFL or the church culture or the NFL or the church culture or the NFL or the church culture, culture, culture, do you think are particularly not do you think are particularly not do you think are particularly not gospel-bearing?

gospel-bearing? gospel-bearing? Yeah, so, um, I think that in any Yeah, so, um, I think that in any Yeah, so, um, I think that in any relationship, relationship, relationship, so God made Adam and Eve, right? And so so God made Adam and Eve, right? And so so God made Adam and Eve, right? And so Eve came from the side of Adam, not in Eve came from the side of Adam, not in Eve came from the side of Adam, not in the front, so she leads him, not in the the front, so she leads him, not in the the front, so she leads him, not in the back, so he drags her along, but men and back, so he drags her along, but men and back, so he drags her along, but men and women are co-heirs and co-equals in women are co-heirs and co-equals in women are co-heirs and co-equals in Christ. So, Christ. So, Christ. So, well, this is what my wife and I say. I well, this is what my wife and I say. I well, this is what my wife and I say. I am the head of my family, which means am the head of my family, which means am the head of my family, which means I'm the lead servant, but my wife is the I'm the lead servant, but my wife is the I'm the lead servant, but my wife is the neck and the head cannot turn without neck and the head cannot turn without neck and the head cannot turn without the neck. And so we want to lead the neck. And so we want to lead the neck. And so we want to lead together. My wife is brilliant. She's a together. My wife is brilliant. She's a together. My wife is brilliant. She's a great gospel leader and teacher and great gospel leader and teacher and great gospel leader and teacher and servant and wife and mom. Why in the servant and wife and mom. Why in the servant and wife and mom. Why in the world would I not want to co-labor, world would I not want to co-labor, world would I not want to co-labor, co-partner with her in all of life? And co-partner with her in all of life? And co-partner with her in all of life? And so, so, so, the idea that women in ministry are like the idea that women in ministry are like the idea that women in ministry are like junior varsity, junior varsity, junior varsity, are just second string, are just second string, are just second string, that is very problematic. Now, we can that is very problematic. Now, we can that is very problematic. Now, we can get into like women pastors and all get into like women pastors and all get into like women pastors and all that. That's not what I'm talking about.

that. That's not what I'm talking about. that. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is women being What I'm talking about is women being What I'm talking about is women being gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve and gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve and gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve and to lead and to do incredible things to lead and to do incredible things to lead and to do incredible things within the church. I'm talking about within the church. I'm talking about within the church. I'm talking about women and men co-heirs, co-equal in women and men co-heirs, co-equal in women and men co-heirs, co-equal in Christ. And Christ. And Christ. And um um um Another thing, too, is Another thing, too, is Another thing, too, is we have to protect our sisters in we have to protect our sisters in we have to protect our sisters in Christ. Christ. Christ. Not because they're weak, but because Not because they're weak, but because Not because they're weak, but because they're family. they're family. they're family. Emotionally, physically, spiritually. Emotionally, physically, spiritually. Emotionally, physically, spiritually. And likewise for us, as well. And likewise for us, as well. And likewise for us, as well. Because when Jesus bled and died and Because when Jesus bled and died and Because when Jesus bled and died and rose again, it was for men and women. rose again, it was for men and women. rose again, it was for men and women. Derwin, you were one of the original Derwin, you were one of the original Derwin, you were one of the original guests on the podcast. I think you might guests on the podcast. I think you might guests on the podcast. I think you might have been episode 13 if have been episode 13 if have been episode 13 if That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. serves me correct. And I know we did a serves me correct. And I know we did a serves me correct. And I know we did a deep dive back then, a decade ago, into deep dive back then, a decade ago, into deep dive back then, a decade ago, into your NFL days and your childhood. your NFL days and your childhood. your NFL days and your childhood. But hey, that was 700 and some odd But hey, that was 700 and some odd But hey, that was 700 and some odd episodes ago and a decade ago. I want to episodes ago and a decade ago. I want to episodes ago and a decade ago. I want to go back there again.

go back there again. go back there again. When you were in the NFL, When you were in the NFL, When you were in the NFL, what were the expressions of masculinity what were the expressions of masculinity what were the expressions of masculinity that you saw that were toxic in Yeah, that you saw that were toxic in Yeah, that you saw that were toxic in Yeah, let's let's just go there. What were you let's let's just go there. What were you let's let's just go there. What were you noticing about being a man noticing about being a man noticing about being a man in the N- in the N- in the N- NFL, pardon me. NFL, pardon me. NFL, pardon me. Yeah. You know, so first, let me say Yeah. You know, so first, let me say Yeah. You know, so first, let me say that that there were some incredible, that that there were some incredible, that that there were some incredible, godly men, players, and coaches that set godly men, players, and coaches that set godly men, players, and coaches that set a great example. a great example. a great example. Some of the negative things are Some of the negative things are Some of the negative things are um um um Somehow, people think that cursing makes Somehow, people think that cursing makes Somehow, people think that cursing makes you a better football player. you a better football player. you a better football player. When I got to the NFL, man, I got cussed When I got to the NFL, man, I got cussed When I got to the NFL, man, I got cussed out in ways that I didn't even know out in ways that I didn't even know out in ways that I didn't even know existed. existed. existed. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, you know, that's that's kind of one. So, you know, that's that's kind of one. So, you know, that's that's kind of one. There was kind of like a a party animal There was kind of like a a party animal There was kind of like a a party animal type of mentality as well, especially my type of mentality as well, especially my type of mentality as well, especially my younger years in the National Football younger years in the National Football younger years in the National Football League. Another one is League. Another one is League. Another one is um, as a football player, you have to um, as a football player, you have to um, as a football player, you have to learn how to play through pain. learn how to play through pain. learn how to play through pain. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. There's a difference between being hurt There's a difference between being hurt There's a difference between being hurt and being injured. Hurt means I can and being injured. Hurt means I can and being injured. Hurt means I can still play. Injured means I can't. So, still play. Injured means I can't. So, still play. Injured means I can't. So, one of the negative things that takes one of the negative things that takes one of the negative things that takes place is you begin to extrapolate that place is you begin to extrapolate that place is you begin to extrapolate that mentality into other facets of your of mentality into other facets of your of mentality into other facets of your of your life. Like, hey, my marriage is your life. Like, hey, my marriage is your life. Like, hey, my marriage is injured, but I'm not going to ask for injured, but I'm not going to ask for injured, but I'm not going to ask for help.

help. help. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. my mental health is injured, but I'm not my mental health is injured, but I'm not my mental health is injured, but I'm not going to ask for help. And here's one of going to ask for help. And here's one of going to ask for help. And here's one of the sayings in the NFL, you cannot make the sayings in the NFL, you cannot make the sayings in the NFL, you cannot make the team if you're in the ice tub. In the team if you're in the ice tub. In the team if you're in the ice tub. In other words, you can't make the team if other words, you can't make the team if other words, you can't make the team if you're hurt. So, I remember, Carrie, you're hurt. So, I remember, Carrie, you're hurt. So, I remember, Carrie, that um that um that um uh, back in the day, they would get give uh, back in the day, they would get give uh, back in the day, they would get give you this pain pill called Toradol. They you this pain pill called Toradol. They you this pain pill called Toradol. They don't even use it anymore. don't even use it anymore. don't even use it anymore. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I was so beat up my last year in the And I was so beat up my last year in the And I was so beat up my last year in the NFL or my fifth year in the NFL is I NFL or my fifth year in the NFL is I NFL or my fifth year in the NFL is I would take Toradol sometimes before would take Toradol sometimes before would take Toradol sometimes before practice. practice. practice. Wow. Wow. Wow. Just to practice. But, my mentality was Just to practice. But, my mentality was Just to practice. But, my mentality was I will not make the team if I'm in the I will not make the team if I'm in the I will not make the team if I'm in the ice tub hurt. ice tub hurt. ice tub hurt. And so, I wish I had someone in my life And so, I wish I had someone in my life And so, I wish I had someone in my life saying, "Hey, man, saying, "Hey, man, saying, "Hey, man, yes, give all you have for the team, but yes, give all you have for the team, but yes, give all you have for the team, but not at the point in which you're going not at the point in which you're going not at the point in which you're going to hurt yourself long-term." And so, I to hurt yourself long-term." And so, I to hurt yourself long-term." And so, I think that's one of the areas where um think that's one of the areas where um think that's one of the areas where um it's negative, but like I said, though, it's negative, but like I said, though, it's negative, but like I said, though, there were several guys with the Colts there were several guys with the Colts there were several guys with the Colts and with the Panthers who really modeled and with the Panthers who really modeled and with the Panthers who really modeled what a healthy family man looked like what a healthy family man looked like what a healthy family man looked like and uh, it corresponded that they and uh, it corresponded that they and uh, it corresponded that they followed Jesus, not just in word. I followed Jesus, not just in word. I followed Jesus, not just in word. I mean, they were serious disciples of mean, they were serious disciples of mean, they were serious disciples of Jesus.

Jesus. Jesus. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, it was episode 13, by the way. I did So, it was episode 13, by the way. I did So, it was episode 13, by the way. I did a quick check. a quick check. a quick check. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. That is amazing. That is amazing. That is amazing. you know, care if if you keep working at you know, care if if you keep working at you know, care if if you keep working at this podcast thing, you may turn out this podcast thing, you may turn out this podcast thing, you may turn out okay. okay. okay. I'm going to keep working at it. Thanks I'm going to keep working at it. Thanks I'm going to keep working at it. Thanks for the encouragement, man. I appreciate for the encouragement, man. I appreciate for the encouragement, man. I appreciate it. Um you know, your childhood and it. Um you know, your childhood and it. Um you know, your childhood and you've written about that extensively. you've written about that extensively. you've written about that extensively. You could have gone in so many different You could have gone in so many different You could have gone in so many different directions. You could have been a directions. You could have been a directions. You could have been a gangster, you could have could have been gangster, you could have could have been gangster, you could have could have been a criminal. a criminal. a criminal. It wasn't automatic that you would have It wasn't automatic that you would have It wasn't automatic that you would have been a preacher. There was a lot of hurt been a preacher. There was a lot of hurt been a preacher. There was a lot of hurt and pain and pain and pain in your childhood, as there have been in your childhood, as there have been in your childhood, as there have been for a lot of people listening to this for a lot of people listening to this for a lot of people listening to this episode right now. Do you want to episode right now. Do you want to episode right now. Do you want to describe what it was like growing up and describe what it was like growing up and describe what it was like growing up and what drove you to the NFL and and the what drove you to the NFL and and the what drove you to the NFL and and the changes that happened in your life? changes that happened in your life? changes that happened in your life? Yeah, you you know, one of the one of Yeah, you you know, one of the one of Yeah, you you know, one of the one of the things that God gives you grace is the things that God gives you grace is the things that God gives you grace is to see what the past was really like. to see what the past was really like. to see what the past was really like. As I look back at the way I grew up, As I look back at the way I grew up, As I look back at the way I grew up, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, man, God's grace is amazing because man, God's grace is amazing because man, God's grace is amazing because I should really be messed up. You know, I should really be messed up. You know, I should really be messed up. You know, uh uh uh I love my family, but we were super I love my family, but we were super I love my family, but we were super dysfunctional.

dysfunctional. dysfunctional. Um substance abuse, I know there was Um substance abuse, I know there was Um substance abuse, I know there was mental health issues, um lots of mental health issues, um lots of mental health issues, um lots of violence, um violence, um violence, um my mom was only 17 when she had me. My my mom was only 17 when she had me. My my mom was only 17 when she had me. My dad was 18 or 19. dad was 18 or 19. dad was 18 or 19. Um Um Um both were sporadically, particularly both were sporadically, particularly both were sporadically, particularly after middle school, out of my life after middle school, out of my life after middle school, out of my life pretty much, so my grandparents raised pretty much, so my grandparents raised pretty much, so my grandparents raised me. So, football for me football for me me. So, football for me football for me me. So, football for me football for me was an escape. was an escape. was an escape. Uh you know, Uh you know, Uh you know, you know you were good at it? When did you know you were good at it? When did you know you were good at it? When did you know you were an athlete? you know you were an athlete? you know you were an athlete? Um so, Um so, Um so, I started practicing my autograph in I started practicing my autograph in I started practicing my autograph in sixth grade, sixth grade, sixth grade, even even though I wasn't very good. even even though I wasn't very good. even even though I wasn't very good. I just knew I needed to practice it. I just knew I needed to practice it. I just knew I needed to practice it. And so, it was it was my sophomore year And so, it was it was my sophomore year And so, it was it was my sophomore year that my coaches told a story. They said that my coaches told a story. They said that my coaches told a story. They said this, I can teach you how to be a this, I can teach you how to be a this, I can teach you how to be a millionaire millionaire millionaire by the time you retire. Now, we're poor by the time you retire. Now, we're poor by the time you retire. Now, we're poor kids. We're like, well, how? And they kids. We're like, well, how? And they kids. We're like, well, how? And they talked about an IRA talked about an IRA talked about an IRA and the magic of compounding interest.

and the magic of compounding interest. and the magic of compounding interest. And we're all like, we're like, oh my And we're all like, we're like, oh my And we're all like, we're like, oh my gosh. And he goes, now, gosh. And he goes, now, gosh. And he goes, now, every day that you work hard, every day that you work hard, every day that you work hard, that's like your IRA that has that's like your IRA that has that's like your IRA that has compounding interest that'll pay off. compounding interest that'll pay off. compounding interest that'll pay off. Once I grabbed that, I started lifting Once I grabbed that, I started lifting Once I grabbed that, I started lifting weights, I started eating right, and I weights, I started eating right, and I weights, I started eating right, and I went from a skinny scrawny kid to strong went from a skinny scrawny kid to strong went from a skinny scrawny kid to strong and fast. And before you knew it, um and fast. And before you knew it, um and fast. And before you knew it, um I had a scholarship to BYU. Now, I could I had a scholarship to BYU. Now, I could I had a scholarship to BYU. Now, I could have went to school have went to school have went to school old were you when you got that interest old were you when you got that interest old were you when you got that interest lesson? lesson? lesson? Uh 10th grade, so 15. Uh 10th grade, so 15. Uh 10th grade, so 15. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um that's when I Yeah. Yeah. And so, um that's when I Yeah. Yeah. And so, um that's when I really started working hard, started really started working hard, started really started working hard, started trying harder in school, but I went to trying harder in school, but I went to trying harder in school, but I went to BYU to get as far away from Texas as BYU to get as far away from Texas as BYU to get as far away from Texas as possible. I didn't know that that was a possible. I didn't know that that was a possible. I didn't know that that was a trauma response. trauma response. trauma response. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I had no idea what I was trying to Yeah, I had no idea what I was trying to Yeah, I had no idea what I was trying to run from, right? Now, I know. run from, right? Now, I know. run from, right? Now, I know. Um and so, going to BYU Um and so, going to BYU Um and so, going to BYU was my way of getting as far away from was my way of getting as far away from was my way of getting as far away from Texas as possible, but here's Texas as possible, but here's Texas as possible, but here's one of the deceptions of the dark one of the deceptions of the dark one of the deceptions of the dark powers.

powers. powers. I thought I could succeed my way out of I thought I could succeed my way out of I thought I could succeed my way out of the trauma. I thought I could succeed my the trauma. I thought I could succeed my the trauma. I thought I could succeed my way out of being sexually abused. I way out of being sexually abused. I way out of being sexually abused. I thought I could succeed my way out of thought I could succeed my way out of thought I could succeed my way out of not feeling seen or heard. And I grew up not feeling seen or heard. And I grew up not feeling seen or heard. And I grew up as a compulsive stutterer. as a compulsive stutterer. as a compulsive stutterer. And I never thought I was smart. And and And I never thought I was smart. And and And I never thought I was smart. And and so, so, so, football football football foot if if I was in the Garden of Eden, foot if if I was in the Garden of Eden, foot if if I was in the Garden of Eden, football was my fig leaf that I tried to football was my fig leaf that I tried to football was my fig leaf that I tried to cover my inadequacies with. cover my inadequacies with. cover my inadequacies with. And the problem with football is it only And the problem with football is it only And the problem with football is it only loves you as long as you can play good. loves you as long as you can play good. loves you as long as you can play good. And when I got to the NFL, NFL stands And when I got to the NFL, NFL stands And when I got to the NFL, NFL stands for not for long. for not for long. for not for long. And so I knew eventually And so I knew eventually And so I knew eventually man, Cinderella's got to go back home. man, Cinderella's got to go back home. man, Cinderella's got to go back home. Huh, the glass slipper it isn't going to Huh, the glass slipper it isn't going to Huh, the glass slipper it isn't going to be on forever. And I knew like we didn't be on forever. And I knew like we didn't be on forever. And I knew like we didn't use the word anxiety, but I had so much use the word anxiety, but I had so much use the word anxiety, but I had so much anxiety in the '90s because of this anxiety in the '90s because of this anxiety in the '90s because of this overarching fear of overarching fear of overarching fear of you're a stutterer, you're not smart, you're a stutterer, you're not smart, you're a stutterer, you're not smart, look where you come from, who are you look where you come from, who are you look where you come from, who are you going to be when you can't play anymore.

going to be when you can't play anymore. going to be when you can't play anymore. And eventually that's what chased me And eventually that's what chased me And eventually that's what chased me into the arms of Christ who said into the arms of Christ who said into the arms of Christ who said I love you anyway. You talk about the sexual abuse. And You talk about the sexual abuse. And unfortunately, it's it's far more common unfortunately, it's it's far more common unfortunately, it's it's far more common than typical. To the extent that you're than typical. To the extent that you're than typical. To the extent that you're comfortable talking about it, Derwin, comfortable talking about it, Derwin, comfortable talking about it, Derwin, what what happened? what what happened? what what happened? Yeah, so in essence, Yeah, so in essence, Yeah, so in essence, so there was an older kid. I was like so there was an older kid. I was like so there was an older kid. I was like six, he was six, he was six, he was 15. And my And in my early 40s, 15. And my And in my early 40s, 15. And my And in my early 40s, I was mad. I was like, why in the world I was mad. I was like, why in the world I was mad. I was like, why in the world would the people responsible for me would the people responsible for me would the people responsible for me allow a 6-year-old to play with a allow a 6-year-old to play with a allow a 6-year-old to play with a 15-year-old kid? 15-year-old kid? 15-year-old kid? Like, why would you do that? Like, why would you do that? Like, why would you do that? Particularly when they themselves had Particularly when they themselves had Particularly when they themselves had experienced sexual abuse as well. experienced sexual abuse as well. experienced sexual abuse as well. And so And so And so you know, there was some you know, there was some you know, there was some grass area, some woods, and we would go grass area, some woods, and we would go grass area, some woods, and we would go back there. And so back there. And so back there. And so yeah, that's that's what that's what yeah, that's that's what that's what yeah, that's that's what that's what happened and happened and happened and I think God was very gracious to me I think God was very gracious to me I think God was very gracious to me because a lot of people who experience because a lot of people who experience because a lot of people who experience sexual abuse sexual abuse sexual abuse will go into drugs and alcohol to numb will go into drugs and alcohol to numb will go into drugs and alcohol to numb the pain?

the pain? the pain? I think for me football was that outlet. I think for me football was that outlet. I think for me football was that outlet. You know, when you get when you get big You know, when you get when you get big You know, when you get when you get big and strong and you feel like, "Yeah, I and strong and you feel like, "Yeah, I and strong and you feel like, "Yeah, I want you to try something now." want you to try something now." want you to try something now." I got power. Yeah, yeah, take me on now. I got power. Yeah, yeah, take me on now. I got power. Yeah, yeah, take me on now. Yeah, so so now I have power Yeah, so so now I have power Yeah, so so now I have power and one of the things, Cary, and this is and one of the things, Cary, and this is and one of the things, Cary, and this is what I'm going to spend the rest of my what I'm going to spend the rest of my what I'm going to spend the rest of my life life life trying to help folks understand is is is trying to help folks understand is is is trying to help folks understand is is is number one, when I came to Jesus number one, when I came to Jesus number one, when I came to Jesus when I realized you forgive me when I realized you forgive me when I realized you forgive me you now live in in me you now live in in me you now live in in me it dawned on me it dawned on me it dawned on me God the Father paid the highest price in God the Father paid the highest price in God the Father paid the highest price in the universe the universe the universe for me. for me. for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Therefore Therefore Therefore my worth is astronomical. my worth is astronomical. my worth is astronomical. So So So what happened to me doesn't define me. what happened to me doesn't define me. what happened to me doesn't define me. Jesus does. Jesus does. Jesus does. And then I learned about the doctrine of And then I learned about the doctrine of And then I learned about the doctrine of justification that God clothes us in justification that God clothes us in justification that God clothes us in righteousness. He sees us as holy and righteousness. He sees us as holy and righteousness. He sees us as holy and blameless and loved. So not only does he blameless and loved. So not only does he blameless and loved. So not only does he forgive my sin but he makes me more than forgive my sin but he makes me more than forgive my sin but he makes me more than a conqueror over sin perpetrated against a conqueror over sin perpetrated against a conqueror over sin perpetrated against me. Now here's the beautiful beauty of me. Now here's the beautiful beauty of me. Now here's the beautiful beauty of God's divine providence of how he's God's divine providence of how he's God's divine providence of how he's working through everything, not causing working through everything, not causing working through everything, not causing everything but working through it. As a everything but working through it. As a everything but working through it. As a football player this is what you're football player this is what you're football player this is what you're taught.

taught. taught. What's the most important play? The next What's the most important play? The next What's the most important play? The next one. one. one. So if you if you if you think about the So if you if you if you think about the So if you if you if you think about the past, you can't play this play. past, you can't play this play. past, you can't play this play. So when I came came to Christ, well, I'm So when I came came to Christ, well, I'm So when I came came to Christ, well, I'm not going to think think about the not going to think think about the not going to think think about the abuse. I'm going to think think about abuse. I'm going to think think about abuse. I'm going to think think about the blood of Christ. I'm going to think the blood of Christ. I'm going to think the blood of Christ. I'm going to think about the righteousness of Christ. And about the righteousness of Christ. And about the righteousness of Christ. And then you're taught throughout the week then you're taught throughout the week then you're taught throughout the week study your playbook, study your film study your playbook, study your film study your playbook, study your film because when you get in the game because when you get in the game because when you get in the game it'll be a natural. So I'm like, "Well, it'll be a natural. So I'm like, "Well, it'll be a natural. So I'm like, "Well, God has a playbook, the Bible. And God has a playbook, the Bible. And God has a playbook, the Bible. And specifically, we have identity in specifically, we have identity in specifically, we have identity in Christ. So, tell yourself over and over Christ. So, tell yourself over and over Christ. So, tell yourself over and over and over what God has done for for you." and over what God has done for for you." and over what God has done for for you." Not only did that help me get past the Not only did that help me get past the Not only did that help me get past the abuse, but it also helped me overcome my abuse, but it also helped me overcome my abuse, but it also helped me overcome my stuttering. My stuttering Now, this is stuttering. My stuttering Now, this is stuttering. My stuttering Now, this is an official diagnosis, but my an official diagnosis, but my an official diagnosis, but my stuttering, I believe, was a trauma stuttering, I believe, was a trauma stuttering, I believe, was a trauma response to everything that I'd gone response to everything that I'd gone response to everything that I'd gone through. And so, when I came to Christ through. And so, when I came to Christ through. And so, when I came to Christ and I began to see myself as holy and and I began to see myself as holy and and I began to see myself as holy and blameless and loved and valuable, my blameless and loved and valuable, my blameless and loved and valuable, my self-worth increased in proportion to my self-worth increased in proportion to my self-worth increased in proportion to my belief of what God had done for me, and belief of what God had done for me, and belief of what God had done for me, and it gave me a new confidence. So, now it gave me a new confidence. So, now it gave me a new confidence. So, now when I speak, I try not to rush through when I speak, I try not to rush through when I speak, I try not to rush through it. I'm not insecure about it. I it. I'm not insecure about it. I it. I'm not insecure about it. I actually say it in my mind first, then I actually say it in my mind first, then I actually say it in my mind first, then I say it out of my mouth. But, say it out of my mouth. But, say it out of my mouth. But, by loving myself correctly in Christ, by loving myself correctly in Christ, by loving myself correctly in Christ, it allowed me to not feel like I had to it allowed me to not feel like I had to it allowed me to not feel like I had to impress anyone. And then, it gave me impress anyone. And then, it gave me impress anyone. And then, it gave me power to actually forgive and pray for

power to actually forgive and pray for power to actually forgive and pray for the teenager that did that. It gave me the teenager that did that. It gave me the teenager that did that. It gave me the power to forgive my father, which the power to forgive my father, which the power to forgive my father, which I don't think if I would have forgiven I don't think if I would have forgiven I don't think if I would have forgiven If I would not have forgiven my dad, I If I would not have forgiven my dad, I If I would not have forgiven my dad, I don't think I would be the husband, don't think I would be the husband, don't think I would be the husband, father, and pastor I am today. father, and pastor I am today. father, and pastor I am today. How do you forgive your father? How do you forgive your father? How do you forgive your father? Yeah. So, Yeah. So, Yeah. So, in the year was 2001, in the year was 2001, in the year was 2001, I'd been a Christian about 3 years, I'd been a Christian about 3 years, I'd been a Christian about 3 years, and I was in my office carrying. So, I'm and I was in my office carrying. So, I'm and I was in my office carrying. So, I'm writing letters and emails to family and writing letters and emails to family and writing letters and emails to family and friends. I'm just like, "Listen, Jesus friends. I'm just like, "Listen, Jesus friends. I'm just like, "Listen, Jesus changed my life. Jesus forgives you." changed my life. Jesus forgives you." changed my life. Jesus forgives you." I'm just giving them scripture. I'm just I'm just giving them scripture. I'm just I'm just giving them scripture. I'm just going crazy. And I hear a voice, and it going crazy. And I hear a voice, and it going crazy. And I hear a voice, and it says this, "Find your father." says this, "Find your father." says this, "Find your father." And the next thing I knew, Carrie, And the next thing I knew, Carrie, And the next thing I knew, Carrie, I was on my office floor in a puddle of I was on my office floor in a puddle of I was on my office floor in a puddle of tears. tears. tears. Oh. Oh. Oh. I was cursing. He doesn't blankety blank I was cursing. He doesn't blankety blank I was cursing. He doesn't blankety blank deserve me to follow him. I was punching deserve me to follow him. I was punching deserve me to follow him. I was punching in the air to to find him and and I in the air to to find him and and I in the air to to find him and and I basically was like basically was like basically was like he abandoned me. Where was he when I was he abandoned me. Where was he when I was he abandoned me. Where was he when I was molested? He didn't teach me how to how molested? He didn't teach me how to how molested? He didn't teach me how to how to treat a to treat a to treat a woman. I don't need him. He doesn't woman. I don't need him. He doesn't woman. I don't need him. He doesn't deserve me to find him.

deserve me to find him. deserve me to find him. And I feel like God was like, "Now we And I feel like God was like, "Now we And I feel like God was like, "Now we can be honest cuz I can't change a fake can be honest cuz I can't change a fake can be honest cuz I can't change a fake version of you." version of you." version of you." For this next step of your growth, For this next step of your growth, For this next step of your growth, you've got to let it out. you've got to let it out. you've got to let it out. And it was almost like he scooped me up, And it was almost like he scooped me up, And it was almost like he scooped me up, put me on his lap, and was like, put me on his lap, and was like, put me on his lap, and was like, "I know how you feel because on the "I know how you feel because on the "I know how you feel because on the cross my son was betrayed. He felt cross my son was betrayed. He felt cross my son was betrayed. He felt everything that's ever happened to you. everything that's ever happened to you. everything that's ever happened to you. And you're and you're right. And you're and you're right. And you're and you're right. Your father does not deserve you finding Your father does not deserve you finding Your father does not deserve you finding him and forgiving him. him and forgiving him. him and forgiving him. But never forget, you didn't deserve my But never forget, you didn't deserve my But never forget, you didn't deserve my son Jesus finding son Jesus finding son Jesus finding and forgiving you." Wow. and forgiving you." Wow. and forgiving you." Wow. And um And um And um I wrote the hardest letter I've had to I wrote the hardest letter I've had to I wrote the hardest letter I've had to write. write. write. And um I found out he was And um I found out he was And um I found out he was in prison. in prison. in prison. And I wrote to him and said, "Dad, And I wrote to him and said, "Dad, And I wrote to him and said, "Dad, I love you. I forgive give you. You have I love you. I forgive give you. You have I love you. I forgive give you. You have two great grandkids two great grandkids two great grandkids and you should get to know them." and you should get to know them." and you should get to know them." I sent the letter off. I sent the letter off. I sent the letter off. Some little time went by. Some little time went by. Some little time went by. Got a letter back from him and I open it Got a letter back from him and I open it Got a letter back from him and I open it and I'm just balling. I'm just crying.

and I'm just balling. I'm just crying. and I'm just balling. I'm just crying. And uh he said uh I'm going to And uh he said uh I'm going to And uh he said uh I'm going to paraphrase, but he said, "Son, paraphrase, but he said, "Son, paraphrase, but he said, "Son, thank you for forgiving me. thank you for forgiving me. thank you for forgiving me. I want to be a part of my grandkids' I want to be a part of my grandkids' I want to be a part of my grandkids' lives." lives." lives." And then he said the words I'd never And then he said the words I'd never And then he said the words I'd never heard my dad say. He said, "And I want heard my dad say. He said, "And I want heard my dad say. He said, "And I want you to know I love you." you to know I love you." you to know I love you." And Carey, it was like a um And Carey, it was like a um And Carey, it was like a um it was like a dam broke. Mhm. It was it was like a dam broke. Mhm. It was it was like a dam broke. Mhm. It was like greater intimacy with God could like greater intimacy with God could like greater intimacy with God could take place. take place. take place. And I truly but believe that if I And I truly but believe that if I And I truly but believe that if I wouldn't have forgave my dad, wouldn't have forgave my dad, wouldn't have forgave my dad, I wouldn't have the capacity to truly be I wouldn't have the capacity to truly be I wouldn't have the capacity to truly be intimate with my wife. And when I say intimate with my wife. And when I say intimate with my wife. And when I say intimacy, I mean into me you see. intimacy, I mean into me you see. intimacy, I mean into me you see. Uh Uh Uh And then it gave me a bigger heart for And then it gave me a bigger heart for And then it gave me a bigger heart for him. him. him. And I've written about about about about And I've written about about about about And I've written about about about about about this before, but my my dad was one about this before, but my my dad was one about this before, but my my dad was one of 17 kids. of 17 kids. of 17 kids. And as a little boy, I remember in the And as a little boy, I remember in the And as a little boy, I remember in the projects, Lincoln Courts projects, Lincoln Courts projects, Lincoln Courts projects on the west side of San projects on the west side of San projects on the west side of San Antonio, Antonio, Antonio, I remember his dad coming home violently I remember his dad coming home violently I remember his dad coming home violently drunk, cursing everybody out, and then drunk, cursing everybody out, and then drunk, cursing everybody out, and then my dad gently taking him to his room my dad gently taking him to his room my dad gently taking him to his room and putting him to sleep.

and putting him to sleep. and putting him to sleep. So, imagine the trauma too. So, imagine the trauma too. So, imagine the trauma too. Imagine the trauma that he's Imagine the trauma that he's Imagine the trauma that he's experienced. And so, experienced. And so, experienced. And so, I would suspect uh you know, most people I would suspect uh you know, most people I would suspect uh you know, most people who have substance abuse issues probably who have substance abuse issues probably who have substance abuse issues probably experience some form of abuse and or experience some form of abuse and or experience some form of abuse and or trauma. trauma. trauma. And now my heart goes out to my dad. He And now my heart goes out to my dad. He And now my heart goes out to my dad. He was 19 when I was born. was 19 when I was born. was 19 when I was born. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and so, we were able to Um and and so, we were able to Um and and so, we were able to reconcile. Was it Was it like me and my reconcile. Was it Was it like me and my reconcile. Was it Was it like me and my son and me and my my daughter? Of course son and me and my my daughter? Of course son and me and my my daughter? Of course not. not. not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so, let me just say this, and I'm not Um so, let me just say this, and I'm not Um so, let me just say this, and I'm not I'm not trying to preach. I'm not trying to preach. I'm not trying to preach. I know there's probably thousands of I know there's probably thousands of I know there's probably thousands of people listening with people that they people listening with people that they people listening with people that they need to forgive, and they're saying, need to forgive, and they're saying, need to forgive, and they're saying, "Well, if I forgive them, does that let "Well, if I forgive them, does that let "Well, if I forgive them, does that let them get away?" Mhm. First of all, God them get away?" Mhm. First of all, God them get away?" Mhm. First of all, God is in the business is in the business is in the business of dealing with them. Forgiveness, when of dealing with them. Forgiveness, when of dealing with them. Forgiveness, when we forgive, it's for us. Forgiveness may we forgive, it's for us. Forgiveness may we forgive, it's for us. Forgiveness may not change the person you forgive, not change the person you forgive, not change the person you forgive, but it'll keep you from changing into but it'll keep you from changing into but it'll keep you from changing into the person that hurts you.

the person that hurts you. the person that hurts you. Unforgiveness Unforgiveness Unforgiveness is a root of bitterness that hurts us. is a root of bitterness that hurts us. is a root of bitterness that hurts us. When we forgive, we're actually freeing When we forgive, we're actually freeing When we forgive, we're actually freeing ourselves. You know, Derwin, we've had this You know, Derwin, we've had this conversation with numerous guests on the conversation with numerous guests on the conversation with numerous guests on the podcast, but when you come from and you podcast, but when you come from and you podcast, but when you come from and you know, if you were to do the math, I know, if you were to do the math, I know, if you were to do the math, I haven't done the math on 700 plus haven't done the math on 700 plus haven't done the math on 700 plus episodes, but you discover that probably episodes, but you discover that probably episodes, but you discover that probably the majority of guests on this podcast the majority of guests on this podcast the majority of guests on this podcast who have and you're on this podcast cuz who have and you're on this podcast cuz who have and you're on this podcast cuz you've been successful in life you've been successful in life you've been successful in life have had a really difficult childhood. I have had a really difficult childhood. I have had a really difficult childhood. I would say mathematically it probably would say mathematically it probably would say mathematically it probably tips toward the majority of guests. tips toward the majority of guests. tips toward the majority of guests. And you know, the way I look at it, when And you know, the way I look at it, when And you know, the way I look at it, when you have the kind of childhood you have, you have the kind of childhood you have, you have the kind of childhood you have, you implode, drug addiction, gang life, you implode, drug addiction, gang life, you implode, drug addiction, gang life, basically basically basically end up like your dad, maybe you're in end up like your dad, maybe you're in end up like your dad, maybe you're in prison, or you explode. NFL player, prison, or you explode. NFL player, prison, or you explode. NFL player, star, pastor of a growing church, etc., star, pastor of a growing church, etc., star, pastor of a growing church, etc., etc. etc. etc. And one of the things I'm chasing down And one of the things I'm chasing down And one of the things I'm chasing down actively in my life is, you know, we all actively in my life is, you know, we all actively in my life is, you know, we all have our garden variety share of hurts have our garden variety share of hurts have our garden variety share of hurts as kids or feelings or as kids or feelings or as kids or feelings or whatever, but I early on became a whatever, but I early on became a whatever, but I early on became a performance addict. And you know, go to performance addict. And you know, go to performance addict. And you know, go to law school, do really well, win your law school, do really well, win your law school, do really well, win your cases, preach well, growing church, you cases, preach well, growing church, you cases, preach well, growing church, you know, growing podcast. Like so I'm I'm know, growing podcast. Like so I'm I'm know, growing podcast. Like so I'm I'm actively actively actively managing that every day.

managing that every day. managing that every day. But you see that sometimes in the But you see that sometimes in the But you see that sometimes in the pulpit. You see that in ministry. So if pulpit. You see that in ministry. So if pulpit. You see that in ministry. So if you forward to ministry, you forward to ministry, you forward to ministry, what part of that drive for success, what part of that drive for success, what part of that drive for success, that fig leaf of Genesis 3, that fig leaf of Genesis 3, that fig leaf of Genesis 3, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. did you carry forward into ministry? did you carry forward into ministry? did you carry forward into ministry? Yeah, you know, Carey, one of the Yeah, you know, Carey, one of the Yeah, you know, Carey, one of the incredible blessings incredible blessings incredible blessings is when you've played in the NFL, is when you've played in the NFL, is when you've played in the NFL, Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. you play in front of 60, 70,000. you play in front of 60, 70,000. you play in front of 60, 70,000. I've been signing autographs since I was I've been signing autographs since I was I've been signing autographs since I was 17. 17. 17. Um Um Um I've been a NFL team captain. I've I've been a NFL team captain. I've I've been a NFL team captain. I've played in front of millions every week played in front of millions every week played in front of millions every week for years. for years. for years. And I know what life without Jesus is And I know what life without Jesus is And I know what life without Jesus is like. like. like. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Success without Jesus is like climbing a Success without Jesus is like climbing a Success without Jesus is like climbing a mountain mountain mountain and straining to get to the top to only and straining to get to the top to only and straining to get to the top to only feel like you haven't advanced at all. feel like you haven't advanced at all. feel like you haven't advanced at all. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, when I came to Christ, So, when I came to Christ, So, when I came to Christ, it was just pure freedom. Like, I didn't it was just pure freedom. Like, I didn't it was just pure freedom. Like, I didn't really understand like really understand like really understand like uh I'm performing to be loved. I'm like, uh I'm performing to be loved. I'm like, uh I'm performing to be loved. I'm like, I did that. Like, my whole life career I did that. Like, my whole life career I did that. Like, my whole life career was based on how big are your hands? How was based on how big are your hands? How was based on how big are your hands? How tall are you? How long are your arms?

tall are you? How long are your arms? tall are you? How long are your arms? How high do you jump? How good is your How high do you jump? How good is your How high do you jump? How good is your game film? And then, I meet Jesus and he game film? And then, I meet Jesus and he game film? And then, I meet Jesus and he goes, "Put your resume away, son. goes, "Put your resume away, son. goes, "Put your resume away, son. First of all, it's not good enough. First of all, it's not good enough. First of all, it's not good enough. But mine is. But mine is. But mine is. I'm going to give you my resume of a I'm going to give you my resume of a I'm going to give you my resume of a sinless, perfect life. sinless, perfect life. sinless, perfect life. And then, I'm going to die for you cuz And then, I'm going to die for you cuz And then, I'm going to die for you cuz you couldn't do it to forgive you and to you couldn't do it to forgive you and to you couldn't do it to forgive you and to cleanse you. And then, I'mma live in you cleanse you. And then, I'mma live in you cleanse you. And then, I'mma live in you so you can live a life you never thought so you can live a life you never thought so you can live a life you never thought that you could ever live." that you could ever live." that you could ever live." Man, that was the best news ever. So, Man, that was the best news ever. So, Man, that was the best news ever. So, I've been really blessed and um I've had I've been really blessed and um I've had I've been really blessed and um I've had great mentors. Uh great mentors. Uh great mentors. Uh Alan Bacon, he uh Alan Bacon, he uh Alan Bacon, he uh was a uh was a uh was a uh He worked for the city of Indianapolis He worked for the city of Indianapolis He worked for the city of Indianapolis for 35 years and he taught Bible on the for 35 years and he taught Bible on the for 35 years and he taught Bible on the side and he did a Bible study in a in a side and he did a Bible study in a in a side and he did a Bible study in a in a inner-city church called Blessed Hope inner-city church called Blessed Hope inner-city church called Blessed Hope Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. And I'd been a Christian for like 4 And I'd been a Christian for like 4 And I'd been a Christian for like 4 months. I tore my knee up against New months. I tore my knee up against New months. I tore my knee up against New England and a friend of mine who was a England and a friend of mine who was a England and a friend of mine who was a Christian said, "Hey, Christian said, "Hey, Christian said, "Hey, um um um I want to take you to this Bible study I want to take you to this Bible study I want to take you to this Bible study to meet to meet this guy." And he was up to meet to meet this guy." And he was up to meet to meet this guy." And he was up there and he was doing Acts chapter 5.

there and he was doing Acts chapter 5. there and he was doing Acts chapter 5. And I was mesmerized and I went, And I was mesmerized and I went, And I was mesmerized and I went, "I want to do that." So, afterwards on "I want to do that." So, afterwards on "I want to do that." So, afterwards on my crutches, I said, "Will you teach my crutches, I said, "Will you teach my crutches, I said, "Will you teach me?" He goes, "Man, here's my number. me?" He goes, "Man, here's my number. me?" He goes, "Man, here's my number. Call me anytime." Call me anytime." Call me anytime." I thought anytime Carrie meant anytime. I thought anytime Carrie meant anytime. I thought anytime Carrie meant anytime. So, I mean, I would call this man at So, I mean, I would call this man at So, I mean, I would call this man at midnight, 6:00 in the morning. And for midnight, 6:00 in the morning. And for midnight, 6:00 in the morning. And for and for years he would mentor me. and for years he would mentor me. and for years he would mentor me. And I would ask him questions and he And I would ask him questions and he And I would ask him questions and he would say, "Well, would say, "Well, would say, "Well, my opinion really doesn't matter, but my opinion really doesn't matter, but my opinion really doesn't matter, but what does the word say?" what does the word say?" what does the word say?" And so, he taught me a healthy respect And so, he taught me a healthy respect And so, he taught me a healthy respect for the word. And then he modeled what for the word. And then he modeled what for the word. And then he modeled what marriage looked like. marriage looked like. marriage looked like. He's been married for so many years. And He's been married for so many years. And He's been married for so many years. And then, early in ministry, Carrie, so I I then, early in ministry, Carrie, so I I then, early in ministry, Carrie, so I I I was out speaking and my kids were I was out speaking and my kids were I was out speaking and my kids were young and I would get home and I was young and I would get home and I was young and I would get home and I was tired and I blessed my wife and kids and tired and I blessed my wife and kids and tired and I blessed my wife and kids and then I'm like, "Well, I'm tired." She's then I'm like, "Well, I'm tired." She's then I'm like, "Well, I'm tired." She's like, "Wait a minute. You need to change like, "Wait a minute. You need to change like, "Wait a minute. You need to change diapers, too." So, we got into this big diapers, too." So, we got into this big diapers, too." So, we got into this big old thing and I'm like, "I've been out old thing and I'm like, "I've been out old thing and I'm like, "I've been out preaching the word of God." I'm like, "I preaching the word of God." I'm like, "I preaching the word of God." I'm like, "I want to call Alan cuz he's going to be want to call Alan cuz he's going to be want to call Alan cuz he's going to be on my side." So, I explained to Alan, on my side." So, I explained to Alan, on my side." So, I explained to Alan, "I've been out speaking and da da da."

"I've been out speaking and da da da." "I've been out speaking and da da da." And he said, he said, "Son, And he said, he said, "Son, And he said, he said, "Son, if you going out preaching makes you too if you going out preaching makes you too if you going out preaching makes you too tired to love and serve your kids, then tired to love and serve your kids, then tired to love and serve your kids, then you need to stop preaching because your you need to stop preaching because your you need to stop preaching because your most important ministry Mhm. Mhm. is your wife is your wife is your wife and your children." and your children." and your children." Alan uh Alan passed away about uh Alan uh Alan passed away about uh Alan uh Alan passed away about uh about 2 years ago. about 2 years ago. about 2 years ago. Oh my. Oh my. Oh my. And um he was a good good man. And um he was a good good man. And um he was a good good man. He was a good good man. My book lit up He was a good good man. My book lit up He was a good good man. My book lit up with love by actually with love by actually with love by actually um um um I actually I actually I actually wrote it for him because he wrote it for him because he wrote it for him because he not only loved the word, he loved not only loved the word, he loved not only loved the word, he loved people, he cared for the poor. He's a people, he cared for the poor. He's a people, he cared for the poor. He's a great husband, a great dad. And And this great husband, a great dad. And And this great husband, a great dad. And And this is what I found out, too, Carrie. This is what I found out, too, Carrie. This is what I found out, too, Carrie. This is what I found out. At his funeral, is what I found out. At his funeral, is what I found out. At his funeral, several of us guys several of us guys several of us guys who he mentored for years, who he mentored for years, who he mentored for years, we all thought we were his we all thought we were his we all thought we were his Now, I'm convinced I was his favorite. I Now, I'm convinced I was his favorite. I Now, I'm convinced I was his favorite. I don't know what those other guys are don't know what those other guys are don't know what those other guys are talking about. But, we're all like, "No, talking about. But, we're all like, "No, talking about. But, we're all like, "No, no, I'm his favorite."

no, I'm his favorite." no, I'm his favorite." So, but you know, So, but you know, So, but you know, that's the kind of legacy I pray that that's the kind of legacy I pray that that's the kind of legacy I pray that God gives me is God gives me is God gives me is I want to finish well and I want to finish well and I want to finish well and people don't have to lie at your people don't have to lie at your people don't have to lie at your funeral. funeral. funeral. So, I can totally see how being in the So, I can totally see how being in the So, I can totally see how being in the NFL in the NFL, playing under all that NFL in the NFL, playing under all that NFL in the NFL, playing under all that pressure, finding Christ pressure, finding Christ pressure, finding Christ changes the performance equation for changes the performance equation for changes the performance equation for you. But, you've been leading a church you. But, you've been leading a church you. But, you've been leading a church how long for transformation now? Is it how long for transformation now? Is it how long for transformation now? Is it 15 15 15 15 years now, brother. 15 years now, brother. 15 years now, brother. 15 years, brother. Okay. So, I'm going 15 years, brother. Okay. So, I'm going 15 years, brother. Okay. So, I'm going to guess, well, I think I kind of know, to guess, well, I think I kind of know, to guess, well, I think I kind of know, you've been through ups and downs. you've been through ups and downs. you've been through ups and downs. You've had explosive seasons, seasons You've had explosive seasons, seasons You've had explosive seasons, seasons where you're frustrated, you're where you're frustrated, you're where you're frustrated, you're frustrated with the growth, the lack of frustrated with the growth, the lack of frustrated with the growth, the lack of progress, with the team, progress, with the team, progress, with the team, etc., etc. So, you come into ministry etc., etc. So, you come into ministry etc., etc. So, you come into ministry with a whole new mindset. with a whole new mindset. with a whole new mindset. Um how do you navigate the ups and Um how do you navigate the ups and Um how do you navigate the ups and downs? Because every leader gets downs? Because every leader gets downs? Because every leader gets frustrated. So, what are you doing? frustrated. So, what are you doing? frustrated. So, what are you doing? Where are the strengths? Where are the Where are the strengths? Where are the Where are the strengths? Where are the setbacks? setbacks? setbacks? What do you see? What do you see? What do you see? Yeah. So, so let me start at the at the Yeah. So, so let me start at the at the Yeah. So, so let me start at the at the personal.

personal. personal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that I believe that I believe that uh uh uh most pastors who blow up morally most pastors who blow up morally most pastors who blow up morally do so do so do so because they're trying to use ministry because they're trying to use ministry because they're trying to use ministry to heal the broken parts of their souls. to heal the broken parts of their souls. to heal the broken parts of their souls. That's one. Ministry cannot heal us. That's one. Ministry cannot heal us. That's one. Ministry cannot heal us. Only Jesus through the power of the Holy Only Jesus through the power of the Holy Only Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit to the glory of the Father can Spirit to the glory of the Father can Spirit to the glory of the Father can heal us, not ministry. heal us, not ministry. heal us, not ministry. Some people are performing saying, "Will Some people are performing saying, "Will Some people are performing saying, "Will this fix my insecurities?" And those this fix my insecurities?" And those this fix my insecurities?" And those become idols that we attach ourselves become idols that we attach ourselves become idols that we attach ourselves to, and that's when the dark powers get to, and that's when the dark powers get to, and that's when the dark powers get in. So, it's important, the greatest in. So, it's important, the greatest in. So, it's important, the greatest gift that I can give Transformation gift that I can give Transformation gift that I can give Transformation Church, greatest gift I can give my wife Church, greatest gift I can give my wife Church, greatest gift I can give my wife and kids, is my personal holiness and kids, is my personal holiness and kids, is my personal holiness through the power of the spirit. So, through the power of the spirit. So, through the power of the spirit. So, that means that means that means my rhythms of grace that some people my rhythms of grace that some people my rhythms of grace that some people call spiritual disciplines or holy call spiritual disciplines or holy call spiritual disciplines or holy habits like habits like habits like um I have to be drinking from the well um I have to be drinking from the well um I have to be drinking from the well of limitless water in order to be a of limitless water in order to be a of limitless water in order to be a river that gives it out. So, that's so river that gives it out. So, that's so river that gives it out. So, that's so that's so that's one. Two, um make sure that's so that's one. Two, um make sure that's so that's one. Two, um make sure you have people around you who are not you have people around you who are not you have people around you who are not impressed with you.

impressed with you. impressed with you. How do you do that? How do you do that? How do you do that? Well, it you have to start with Well, it you have to start with Well, it you have to start with humility, Carey. humility, Carey. humility, Carey. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You have to start with You have to start with You have to start with Humble leaders are not afraid to Humble leaders are not afraid to Humble leaders are not afraid to surround themselves with people who will surround themselves with people who will surround themselves with people who will challenge them and people who are better challenge them and people who are better challenge them and people who are better than them in certain things. But than them in certain things. But than them in certain things. But ultimately, like if you're not honest ultimately, like if you're not honest ultimately, like if you're not honest with the Holy Spirit, you're not going with the Holy Spirit, you're not going with the Holy Spirit, you're not going to be honest with people. to be honest with people. to be honest with people. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And the crash is going to be ugly. Um And the crash is going to be ugly. Um And the crash is going to be ugly. Um so, making sure your personal holiness so, making sure your personal holiness so, making sure your personal holiness now Now, thirdly, now Now, thirdly, now Now, thirdly, is is is you're only going to go as far as the you're only going to go as far as the you're only going to go as far as the team around you. team around you. team around you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um our first few years, Carey, our So, um our first few years, Carey, our So, um our first few years, Carey, our first four out of our five years, we're first four out of our five years, we're first four out of our five years, we're one of the fastest-growing churches in one of the fastest-growing churches in one of the fastest-growing churches in the United States of America. the United States of America. the United States of America. That was momentum growth. A lot of it That was momentum growth. A lot of it That was momentum growth. A lot of it was pulpit growth. God breathed on it. was pulpit growth. God breathed on it. was pulpit growth. God breathed on it. We had no clue what we were doing. One We had no clue what we were doing. One We had no clue what we were doing. One service, two services, three services, service, two services, three services, service, two services, three services, four services, five services, six four services, five services, six four services, five services, six services, which is crazy. Never do that. services, which is crazy. Never do that. services, which is crazy. Never do that. Um and so, we had a lot of momentum Um and so, we had a lot of momentum Um and so, we had a lot of momentum growth. And then at about I would say growth. And then at about I would say growth. And then at about I would say about year seven or eight, we had to about year seven or eight, we had to about year seven or eight, we had to have strategic growth. So, have strategic growth. So, have strategic growth. So, it's important. So, like in many ways, it's important. So, like in many ways, it's important. So, like in many ways, uh I'll use Apple. So, in the '90s, uh I'll use Apple. So, in the '90s, uh I'll use Apple. So, in the '90s, Apple fired Steve Jobs and they brought Apple fired Steve Jobs and they brought Apple fired Steve Jobs and they brought in some other in some other in some other Yeah, John Sculley, etc., etc.

Yeah, John Sculley, etc., etc. Yeah, John Sculley, etc., etc. Yeah, and so, they end up bringing Jobs Yeah, and so, they end up bringing Jobs Yeah, and so, they end up bringing Jobs back, but the lesson was learned is you back, but the lesson was learned is you back, but the lesson was learned is you need people who've led at at at uh at need people who've led at at at uh at need people who've led at at at uh at scale. So, in the early part of our scale. So, in the early part of our scale. So, in the early part of our church, we were taking people straight church, we were taking people straight church, we were taking people straight out of the pews and discipling them as out of the pews and discipling them as out of the pews and discipling them as best we could, but there were capacities best we could, but there were capacities best we could, but there were capacities and skills beyond them. and skills beyond them. and skills beyond them. And so, now at year 15, we recognize And so, now at year 15, we recognize And so, now at year 15, we recognize that we need for God to bring leaders in that we need for God to bring leaders in that we need for God to bring leaders in who's who have led a church of 8 to who's who have led a church of 8 to who's who have led a church of 8 to 10,000, who understand systems and 10,000, who understand systems and 10,000, who understand systems and processes, who are also shepherd processes, who are also shepherd processes, who are also shepherd hearted, who are godly. hearted, who are godly. hearted, who are godly. Um but yeah, so like and you know this Um but yeah, so like and you know this Um but yeah, so like and you know this better than anyone, when you're a better than anyone, when you're a better than anyone, when you're a growing church, there's always tension growing church, there's always tension growing church, there's always tension of, man, we got to deepen our bench. of, man, we got to deepen our bench. of, man, we got to deepen our bench. And we have to grow leaders. Um but the And we have to grow leaders. Um but the And we have to grow leaders. Um but the older I get, older I get, older I get, I take godliness over giftedness every I take godliness over giftedness every I take godliness over giftedness every single time. single time. single time. Godliness over giftedness. So, we're Godliness over giftedness. So, we're Godliness over giftedness. So, we're we're in the process now to where we're in the process now to where we're in the process now to where uh we need, uh we need, uh we need, you know, uh several more you know, uh several more you know, uh several more uh executive type minded shepherd folks uh executive type minded shepherd folks uh executive type minded shepherd folks on our team to take us to where we need on our team to take us to where we need on our team to take us to where we need to go.

to go. to go. Um and it's hard, you know? Um Um and it's hard, you know? Um Um and it's hard, you know? Um I never knew that the hardest part of I never knew that the hardest part of I never knew that the hardest part of leading a church would be the staff. leading a church would be the staff. leading a church would be the staff. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. I had no I Carey, I had no idea. How has that shown up for you? How has that shown up for you? How has that shown up for you? Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Woo, three years ago, we had to Woo, three years ago, we had to Woo, three years ago, we had to transition some people off staff. It was transition some people off staff. It was transition some people off staff. It was painful. painful. painful. Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt Um I lost 15 lb of just stress and hurt and and and tears. tears. tears. Um Um Um you know, it's you know, it's you know, it's it's hard where we've had to remove it's hard where we've had to remove it's hard where we've had to remove people for moral issues. That's that's people for moral issues. That's that's people for moral issues. That's that's challenging. challenging. challenging. Um it's hard when um people don't trust Um it's hard when um people don't trust Um it's hard when um people don't trust you you you Or people lie about you. Or people lie about you. Or people lie about you. Um, Um, Um, and God has revealed to me over the last and God has revealed to me over the last and God has revealed to me over the last few years few years few years that I like to have a good name, that I like to have a good name, that I like to have a good name, but not everybody's going to like you or but not everybody's going to like you or but not everybody's going to like you or your name. And there are some things your name. And there are some things your name. And there are some things that you cannot that you cannot that you cannot overcome. You just have to just do the overcome. You just have to just do the overcome. You just have to just do the best that you can. When you're wrong, best that you can. When you're wrong, best that you can. When you're wrong, you say you're sorry.

you say you're sorry. you say you're sorry. Um, so that part has been grueling. Um, so that part has been grueling. Um, so that part has been grueling. I had no idea that that it would be that I had no idea that that it would be that I had no idea that that it would be that painful, that hurtful. And and you lose painful, that hurtful. And and you lose painful, that hurtful. And and you lose friends. friends. friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Derwin, you're not alone in that and Derwin, you're not alone in that and Derwin, you're not alone in that and thanks for going there. Um, I mean thanks for going there. Um, I mean thanks for going there. Um, I mean you're reading the mail of a lot of you're reading the mail of a lot of you're reading the mail of a lot of listeners and I've definitely been down listeners and I've definitely been down listeners and I've definitely been down that road and I would say that road and I would say that road and I would say if there's one thing over the last 30 if there's one thing over the last 30 if there's one thing over the last 30 years of church leadership that has kept years of church leadership that has kept years of church leadership that has kept me up at night, it's people issues. me up at night, it's people issues. me up at night, it's people issues. Yes. Yes. Yes. Never like, I can figure out how to grow Never like, I can figure out how to grow Never like, I can figure out how to grow this tomorrow. That's fine. I'm going to this tomorrow. That's fine. I'm going to this tomorrow. That's fine. I'm going to bed. But if it's like strategy, that's bed. But if it's like strategy, that's bed. But if it's like strategy, that's easy. But when it's people issues. So if easy. But when it's people issues. So if easy. But when it's people issues. So if you don't mind breaking it down a little you don't mind breaking it down a little you don't mind breaking it down a little bit more, like where bit more, like where bit more, like where what were the blind spots? What went what were the blind spots? What went what were the blind spots? What went sideways on you without throwing anybody sideways on you without throwing anybody sideways on you without throwing anybody under the bus in particular, but like under the bus in particular, but like under the bus in particular, but like what what did you not see that looking what what did you not see that looking what what did you not see that looking back at it, you're like, ah, I should back at it, you're like, ah, I should back at it, you're like, ah, I should have seen that. have seen that. have seen that. So, I would say the first thing that I So, I would say the first thing that I So, I would say the first thing that I wish I would have done wish I would have done wish I would have done better better better is my wife and I fought so hard is my wife and I fought so hard is my wife and I fought so hard to make sure people didn't see to make sure people didn't see to make sure people didn't see Transformation Church like, that's Transformation Church like, that's Transformation Church like, that's Derwin, you know, Derwin. And so we Derwin, you know, Derwin. And so we Derwin, you know, Derwin. And so we fought really hard to be like, no, no, fought really hard to be like, no, no, fought really hard to be like, no, no, to glory to God. And and there were some to glory to God. And and there were some to glory to God. And and there were some people who were like, okay, sounds good people who were like, okay, sounds good people who were like, okay, sounds good to us.

to us. to us. And we will make sure that doesn't And we will make sure that doesn't And we will make sure that doesn't happen. happen. happen. And in a negative way, right? So And in a negative way, right? So And in a negative way, right? So are out to hurt you? are out to hurt you? are out to hurt you? Well, Well, Well, you know, I wouldn't I you know, I wouldn't I you know, I wouldn't I I don't I don't want to I don't I don't want to I don't I don't want to I don't want to say that. What What I I don't want to say that. What What I I don't want to say that. What What I will say is when people perceive a will say is when people perceive a will say is when people perceive a weakness and they're not healthy, they weakness and they're not healthy, they weakness and they're not healthy, they will go after it. will go after it. will go after it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um let me just own my part. And this is Um let me just own my part. And this is Um let me just own my part. And this is And this is what I'll And this is what And this is what I'll And this is what And this is what I'll And this is what what what I've I've learned. I will what what I've I've learned. I will what what I've I've learned. I will never again dim my light to make never again dim my light to make never again dim my light to make insecure people feel okay. insecure people feel okay. insecure people feel okay. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. God has called me to serve in humility. God has called me to serve in humility. God has called me to serve in humility. He has gifted me. He has placed me here He has gifted me. He has placed me here He has gifted me. He has placed me here and I am going to do that to the best of and I am going to do that to the best of and I am going to do that to the best of my ability. I can't control how people my ability. I can't control how people my ability. I can't control how people perceive me like, oh Derwin, he speaks perceive me like, oh Derwin, he speaks perceive me like, oh Derwin, he speaks here. But what I can do is present here. But what I can do is present here. But what I can do is present myself in humility and love and grace. myself in humility and love and grace. myself in humility and love and grace. So that was number one.

So that was number one. So that was number one. Number two is Number two is Number two is when people tell you who they are, when people tell you who they are, when people tell you who they are, believe them. believe them. believe them. Explain. Explain. Explain. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? Yeah, so what makes me an effective Yeah, so what makes me an effective Yeah, so what makes me an effective pastor is I've got a big heart, Carey, pastor is I've got a big heart, Carey, pastor is I've got a big heart, Carey, man. I love people. Oh my gosh. man. I love people. Oh my gosh. man. I love people. Oh my gosh. Now a part of that is rooted as a child Now a part of that is rooted as a child Now a part of that is rooted as a child when you don't feel like you've been when you don't feel like you've been when you don't feel like you've been adequately loved, you want to make sure adequately loved, you want to make sure adequately loved, you want to make sure people love you. So what that does for people love you. So what that does for people love you. So what that does for me is that'll move me to go, yes, I me is that'll move me to go, yes, I me is that'll move me to go, yes, I forgive you. Yes, I give you grace. forgive you. Yes, I give you grace. forgive you. Yes, I give you grace. But then you're taken advantage of. And But then you're taken advantage of. And But then you're taken advantage of. And so my wife will come in and go, no, no, so my wife will come in and go, no, no, so my wife will come in and go, no, no, no, I'm discerning. No, I let let let's no, I'm discerning. No, I let let let's no, I'm discerning. No, I let let let's watch for a little bit. So what I mean watch for a little bit. So what I mean watch for a little bit. So what I mean by when someone tells you by when someone tells you by when someone tells you who they are, believe them. If you who they are, believe them. If you who they are, believe them. If you continue to see red flags, continue to see red flags, continue to see red flags, that means there's a issue. And so what that means there's a issue. And so what that means there's a issue. And so what I've learned to do now is I address the I've learned to do now is I address the I've learned to do now is I address the red flags immediately.

red flags immediately. red flags immediately. I immediately talk about them because I immediately talk about them because I immediately talk about them because it's like uh it's like uh it's like uh it's like not paying your bills. it's like not paying your bills. it's like not paying your bills. Eventually, all the bills are going to Eventually, all the bills are going to Eventually, all the bills are going to come due and it's going to multiply. come due and it's going to multiply. come due and it's going to multiply. So, when you say when people tell you So, when you say when people tell you So, when you say when people tell you who they are, believe them, who they are, believe them, who they are, believe them, are you talking about getting I just are you talking about getting I just are you talking about getting I just want to make sure I understand. Are you want to make sure I understand. Are you want to make sure I understand. Are you talking about not like, "Oh, I know you talking about not like, "Oh, I know you talking about not like, "Oh, I know you say that, Kerry, but not really." You say that, Kerry, but not really." You say that, Kerry, but not really." You really like is is it meaning that you really like is is it meaning that you really like is is it meaning that you think you can change them and you got to think you can change them and you got to think you can change them and you got to get over that or what? get over that or what? get over that or what? Uh so, like if you see some Uh so, like if you see some Uh so, like if you see some inconsistencies in somebody's life, inconsistencies in somebody's life, inconsistencies in somebody's life, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh like for example, here's one of the Uh like for example, here's one of the Uh like for example, here's one of the first things that I do now. If I'm first things that I do now. If I'm first things that I do now. If I'm talking talking talking to someone and there's some form of to someone and there's some form of to someone and there's some form of conflict or you want to work through conflict or you want to work through conflict or you want to work through some things, if I'm talking to them and some things, if I'm talking to them and some things, if I'm talking to them and it sounds like I've got to be a it sounds like I've got to be a it sounds like I've got to be a detective just to get the truth, red detective just to get the truth, red detective just to get the truth, red flag, red flag, red flag. flag, red flag, red flag. flag, red flag, red flag. Believe it. Worse than you Believe it. Worse than you Believe it. Worse than you Yeah, worse than years past, I'm like, Yeah, worse than years past, I'm like, Yeah, worse than years past, I'm like, "Well, maybe they meant Maybe they meant "Well, maybe they meant Maybe they meant "Well, maybe they meant Maybe they meant So, a part of our So, a part of our So, a part of our cultural values cultural values cultural values is uh is uh is uh clear is kind, unclear is unkind.

clear is kind, unclear is unkind. clear is kind, unclear is unkind. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And so, we want to make sure we're And so, we want to make sure we're And so, we want to make sure we're speaking clearly because the truth will speaking clearly because the truth will speaking clearly because the truth will set you free. We also want us to have set you free. We also want us to have set you free. We also want us to have uncommon integrity, which means we tell uncommon integrity, which means we tell uncommon integrity, which means we tell the truth because a half lie a half the truth because a half lie a half the truth because a half lie a half truth is a full lie. truth is a full lie. truth is a full lie. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Uh but if somebody's giving me like Uh but if somebody's giving me like Uh but if somebody's giving me like Blue's Clues and I'm like, "What are you Blue's Clues and I'm like, "What are you Blue's Clues and I'm like, "What are you saying?" saying?" saying?" That's kind of like a red flag issue. If That's kind of like a red flag issue. If That's kind of like a red flag issue. If there are people who are treating others there are people who are treating others there are people who are treating others on staff differently than when you're on staff differently than when you're on staff differently than when you're around, that's a red flag. around, that's a red flag. around, that's a red flag. You know. Um which that was the hardest You know. Um which that was the hardest You know. Um which that was the hardest thing for me, Kerry. thing for me, Kerry. thing for me, Kerry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I thought, you know, "Hey, you're in I I thought, you know, "Hey, you're in I I thought, you know, "Hey, you're in ministry. ministry. ministry. You love the Lord. We're walking in You love the Lord. We're walking in You love the Lord. We're walking in holiness. It's going to be awesome. holiness. It's going to be awesome. holiness. It's going to be awesome. So, when you hire now and when you So, when you hire now and when you So, when you hire now and when you recruit now, recruit now, recruit now, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What what's your new phone What what's your new phone What what's your new phone We got HR, brother. We got HR, brother. We got HR, brother. You got HR? All right. You got HR? All right. You got HR? All right. Actually, that's a really important Actually, that's a really important Actually, that's a really important point. point. point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Have you stepped out a little bit of Have you stepped out a little bit of Have you stepped out a little bit of that process or what what have you done that process or what what have you done that process or what what have you done with that?

with that? with that? Yeah, so we have an we have an Yeah, so we have an we have an Yeah, so we have an we have an incredible team. So, our executive incredible team. So, our executive incredible team. So, our executive directors hire primarily for their area, directors hire primarily for their area, directors hire primarily for their area, but we do now have an HR person that's but we do now have an HR person that's but we do now have an HR person that's phenomenal. And uh so, for certain phenomenal. And uh so, for certain phenomenal. And uh so, for certain positions, I'm actively involved in when positions, I'm actively involved in when positions, I'm actively involved in when they get to a certain stage, but I'm they get to a certain stage, but I'm they get to a certain stage, but I'm always praying. But, having an HR person always praying. But, having an HR person always praying. But, having an HR person has been gold for us. One of the things has been gold for us. One of the things has been gold for us. One of the things that we do at Transformation Church for that we do at Transformation Church for that we do at Transformation Church for 15 years is every Tuesday is called 15 years is every Tuesday is called 15 years is every Tuesday is called Transformation Time. We're developing Transformation Time. We're developing Transformation Time. We're developing the will and we're developing the skill. the will and we're developing the skill. the will and we're developing the skill. When I say will, it's spiritual When I say will, it's spiritual When I say will, it's spiritual formation. Your discipleship skill, it's formation. Your discipleship skill, it's formation. Your discipleship skill, it's the skill to do ministry. Your job, you the skill to do ministry. Your job, you the skill to do ministry. Your job, you know, management techniques. So, with HR know, management techniques. So, with HR know, management techniques. So, with HR now, we are spending time really pouring now, we are spending time really pouring now, we are spending time really pouring into our staff because as our staff into our staff because as our staff into our staff because as our staff goes, so goes our church. I want the goes, so goes our church. I want the goes, so goes our church. I want the most healthiest part of our church to be most healthiest part of our church to be most healthiest part of our church to be our staff because they're functioning as our staff because they're functioning as our staff because they're functioning as shepherds and leaders who pour into the shepherds and leaders who pour into the shepherds and leaders who pour into the church, right? And so, we're working church, right? And so, we're working church, right? And so, we're working really, really hard at that. And really, really hard at that. And really, really hard at that. And whether you're here 20 years, 20 months, whether you're here 20 years, 20 months, whether you're here 20 years, 20 months, it is my prayer that you have deepened it is my prayer that you have deepened it is my prayer that you have deepened and thickened in the Lord in your will and thickened in the Lord in your will and thickened in the Lord in your will and your skill so you can go be a and your skill so you can go be a and your skill so you can go be a blessing somewhere else.

blessing somewhere else. blessing somewhere else. You know, leadership is a pretty broad You know, leadership is a pretty broad You know, leadership is a pretty broad category. It could be personal, it could category. It could be personal, it could category. It could be personal, it could be corporate, it could be preaching, be corporate, it could be preaching, be corporate, it could be preaching, could be leading the team. But, when you could be leading the team. But, when you could be leading the team. But, when you think about your leadership today, think about your leadership today, think about your leadership today, Derwin, Derwin, Derwin, where would you say it's continually where would you say it's continually where would you say it's continually still the most tested? That's a good one, Carey. That's a good one, Carey. Uh so, you know what? I would say Uh so, you know what? I would say Uh so, you know what? I would say I have to walk this incredible fine line I have to walk this incredible fine line I have to walk this incredible fine line of being of being of being so loving so loving so loving that I cannot be discerning. that I cannot be discerning. that I cannot be discerning. And that's where Vicky Gray comes in And that's where Vicky Gray comes in And that's where Vicky Gray comes in with her discernment. with her discernment. with her discernment. As I say, "Gosh, you have a big heart. As I say, "Gosh, you have a big heart. As I say, "Gosh, you have a big heart. You're a big old teddy bear, and you You're a big old teddy bear, and you You're a big old teddy bear, and you love well, and you love hard. love well, and you love hard. love well, and you love hard. But let's let's have some discernment But let's let's have some discernment But let's let's have some discernment here. Let's let's let's get real. here. Let's let's let's get real. here. Let's let's let's get real. Yeah, let's let's let's kind of walk Yeah, let's let's let's kind of walk Yeah, let's let's let's kind of walk with this a little bit and kind of see."

with this a little bit and kind of see." with this a little bit and kind of see." What does that come out of? What does that come out of? What does that come out of? Uh you know, Uh you know, Uh you know, uh I'm not a psychologist. I'm a uh I'm not a psychologist. I'm a uh I'm not a psychologist. I'm a theologian pastor, but I would have to theologian pastor, but I would have to theologian pastor, but I would have to say say say you know, as a little boy you know, as a little boy you know, as a little boy uh uh uh I did feel at times not seen. I did feel at times not seen. I did feel at times not seen. And you get good at football, and it's And you get good at football, and it's And you get good at football, and it's like, "Oh, I got attention." like, "Oh, I got attention." like, "Oh, I got attention." So, if I'm good, I get attention. Hey, So, if I'm good, I get attention. Hey, So, if I'm good, I get attention. Hey, so if if man, if I love you enough to so if if man, if I love you enough to so if if man, if I love you enough to forget it If I love you enough I forgive forget it If I love you enough I forgive forget it If I love you enough I forgive you, it's going to change everything. you, it's going to change everything. you, it's going to change everything. And then also, my family dynamic is And then also, my family dynamic is And then also, my family dynamic is because I made it out, right? I made it because I made it out, right? I made it because I made it out, right? I made it out. My job was to save everybody. out. My job was to save everybody. out. My job was to save everybody. But here was the problem, though. But here was the problem, though. But here was the problem, though. Giving people money to stay the same Giving people money to stay the same Giving people money to stay the same isn't helping them. isn't helping them. isn't helping them. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And there was a lot of pain. And there was a lot of pain. And there was a lot of pain. There was a lot of pain in the NFL when There was a lot of pain in the NFL when There was a lot of pain in the NFL when people you never talked to people you never talked to people you never talked to all of a sudden are like, "Hey, how you all of a sudden are like, "Hey, how you all of a sudden are like, "Hey, how you doing?" I'm like, doing?" I'm like, doing?" I'm like, "Uh I haven't talked to you in 10 years.

"Uh I haven't talked to you in 10 years. "Uh I haven't talked to you in 10 years. Why do want" And then ultimately, it's I Why do want" And then ultimately, it's I Why do want" And then ultimately, it's I need m- money. I need this. need m- money. I need this. need m- money. I need this. And so And so And so Uh I think it was one of those areas of Uh I think it was one of those areas of Uh I think it was one of those areas of how I tried to survive. If I'm good how I tried to survive. If I'm good how I tried to survive. If I'm good enough, if I do enough, you will you enough, if I do enough, you will you enough, if I do enough, you will you will love me. And so the gospel tells me will love me. And so the gospel tells me will love me. And so the gospel tells me that Jesus is my enough, that Jesus that Jesus is my enough, that Jesus that Jesus is my enough, that Jesus accepts me, and it's okay if I let accepts me, and it's okay if I let accepts me, and it's okay if I let people down. people down. people down. Cuz I can't meet everybody's Cuz I can't meet everybody's Cuz I can't meet everybody's expectations cuz I'm not a savior. expectations cuz I'm not a savior. expectations cuz I'm not a savior. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What's one thing you still wrestle with What's one thing you still wrestle with What's one thing you still wrestle with that people might be surprised to hear that people might be surprised to hear that people might be surprised to hear about? about? about? Uh Uh Uh You know, uh You know, uh You know, uh I would say I would say I would say up until about 5 years ago, Carey, up until about 5 years ago, Carey, up until about 5 years ago, Carey, I would pull up the Transformation I would pull up the Transformation I would pull up the Transformation Church and I'd go, Church and I'd go, Church and I'd go, "I wonder if people are going to figure "I wonder if people are going to figure "I wonder if people are going to figure out I'm not good enough." out I'm not good enough." out I'm not good enough." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And don't show up. And don't show up. And don't show up. And then I sensed the Holy Spirit And then I sensed the Holy Spirit And then I sensed the Holy Spirit saying, "Oh, duh. They're not showing up saying, "Oh, duh. They're not showing up saying, "Oh, duh. They're not showing up for you anyway, bro.

for you anyway, bro. for you anyway, bro. How you How in the world you making this How you How in the world you making this How you How in the world you making this about you?" about you?" about you?" But that was my insecurity because I But that was my insecurity because I But that was my insecurity because I come from a come from a come from a My whole life is good enough is My whole life is good enough is My whole life is good enough is measured. measured. measured. And um yeah, so I struggle with that. And um yeah, so I struggle with that. And um yeah, so I struggle with that. You know, I struggle You know, I struggle You know, I struggle Um what does it mean to be a parent of Um what does it mean to be a parent of Um what does it mean to be a parent of adults? You know, I've got a adults? You know, I've got a adults? You know, I've got a That's I'm still working on that one, That's I'm still working on that one, That's I'm still working on that one, Derwin. Derwin. Derwin. Yeah, I got a 28-year-old that lives in Yeah, I got a 28-year-old that lives in Yeah, I got a 28-year-old that lives in Seoul. I got a 24-year-old finished up Seoul. I got a 24-year-old finished up Seoul. I got a 24-year-old finished up his first year of law school. his first year of law school. his first year of law school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it it it is a sweet sweet And you know, it it it is a sweet sweet And you know, it it it is a sweet sweet season when your children become your season when your children become your season when your children become your friends. friends. friends. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh Uh Uh but man, it it it's um but man, it it it's um but man, it it it's um it's challenging of how to it's challenging of how to it's challenging of how to that line, right? Like they still need a that line, right? Like they still need a that line, right? Like they still need a parent, but not like when they were 12. parent, but not like when they were 12. parent, but not like when they were 12. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, let's see uh Uh what else I struggle let's see uh Uh what else I struggle let's see uh Uh what else I struggle with? Um with? Um with? Um you know, um you know, um you know, um I struggle with my my propensity is I struggle with my my propensity is I struggle with my my propensity is I can get so frustrated at the broader I can get so frustrated at the broader I can get so frustrated at the broader church and I'm like, you know what?

church and I'm like, you know what? church and I'm like, you know what? Forget y'all, man. I'm I'm trying I I Forget y'all, man. I'm I'm trying I I Forget y'all, man. I'm I'm trying I I have tried for all these years. have tried for all these years. have tried for all these years. I have I'm done. I'm just going to go I have I'm done. I'm just going to go I have I'm done. I'm just going to go just just just I ain't going to speak I ain't I'm just I ain't going to speak I ain't I'm just I ain't going to speak I ain't I'm just staying in the trans space shirt. Leave staying in the trans space shirt. Leave staying in the trans space shirt. Leave me alone. me alone. me alone. And God's like, no, no, that's not what And God's like, no, no, that's not what And God's like, no, no, that's not what we're going to do, buddy. Just whenever we're going to do, buddy. Just whenever we're going to do, buddy. Just whenever you get frustrated, just read the New you get frustrated, just read the New you get frustrated, just read the New Testament and you'll see they didn't Testament and you'll see they didn't Testament and you'll see they didn't have it together either. have it together either. have it together either. You know, like sanctification is a You know, like sanctification is a You know, like sanctification is a process, my friend. process, my friend. process, my friend. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, on that note, that was my next You know, on that note, that was my next You know, on that note, that was my next question. question. question. Um Um Um if you could make a you'd just written a if you could make a you'd just written a if you could make a you'd just written a book about love, if you could but feel book about love, if you could but feel book about love, if you could but feel free to go in any direction you want to free to go in any direction you want to free to go in any direction you want to take it. If you could wave a magic wand, take it. If you could wave a magic wand, take it. If you could wave a magic wand, we don't believe in magic, but I like we don't believe in magic, but I like we don't believe in magic, but I like the question. If you could wave a magic the question. If you could wave a magic the question. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the wand and change one thing about the wand and change one thing about the church in America, what would you church in America, what would you church in America, what would you change? change? change? I would change I would change I would change the focus from the focus from the focus from production production production to to to embracing the grace of God. When I say embracing the grace of God. When I say embracing the grace of God. When I say production, I don't mean like Sunday production, I don't mean like Sunday production, I don't mean like Sunday production. I mean production. I mean production. I mean in my opinion, a lot of the preaching, in my opinion, a lot of the preaching, in my opinion, a lot of the preaching, teaching, books is all about teaching, books is all about teaching, books is all about you produce you you you you produce you you produce you you you you produce you you produce you you you you produce you you you. God wants you to do you you you you you. God wants you to do you you you you you. God wants you to do you you you you. Whereas I think it should be more you. Whereas I think it should be more you. Whereas I think it should be more about let's sit at the feet of Jesus about let's sit at the feet of Jesus about let's sit at the feet of Jesus and be dazzled by his redemptive work.

and be dazzled by his redemptive work. and be dazzled by his redemptive work. I'm picking up I'm picking up I'm picking up between the lines that you might be between the lines that you might be between the lines that you might be doing more of that now than you were 5 doing more of that now than you were 5 doing more of that now than you were 5 or 10 years ago. or 10 years ago. or 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. reading into things? reading into things? reading into things? Uh no, no. So, I am probably more Uh no, no. So, I am probably more Uh no, no. So, I am probably more fruitful and productive now than I was 5 fruitful and productive now than I was 5 fruitful and productive now than I was 5 or 10 years ago. or 10 years ago. or 10 years ago. I'm just learning how to sit at the feet I'm just learning how to sit at the feet I'm just learning how to sit at the feet of Jesus as I'm going. of Jesus as I'm going. of Jesus as I'm going. And so And so And so um um um I my goal of the ministry I believe God I my goal of the ministry I believe God I my goal of the ministry I believe God has given me has given me has given me is I want people whether they read my is I want people whether they read my is I want people whether they read my books or preaching or leadership to go books or preaching or leadership to go books or preaching or leadership to go I had no idea Jesus was that beautiful. I had no idea Jesus was that beautiful. I had no idea Jesus was that beautiful. I just had I had no idea he was this I just had I had no idea he was this I just had I had no idea he was this wonderful. He is the greatest treasure wonderful. He is the greatest treasure wonderful. He is the greatest treasure like Matthew 13 when Jesus says, you like Matthew 13 when Jesus says, you like Matthew 13 when Jesus says, you know, a farmer sold everything because know, a farmer sold everything because know, a farmer sold everything because he found a treasure. he found a treasure. he found a treasure. And a lot of preaching and teaching and And a lot of preaching and teaching and And a lot of preaching and teaching and ministry isn't Jesus the treasure, it's ministry isn't Jesus the treasure, it's ministry isn't Jesus the treasure, it's Jesus the taskmaster.

Jesus the taskmaster. Jesus the taskmaster. Do more for him, be more versus man if Do more for him, be more versus man if Do more for him, be more versus man if I'm with him, the fruit of the spirit's I'm with him, the fruit of the spirit's I'm with him, the fruit of the spirit's going to empower me to do things I never going to empower me to do things I never going to empower me to do things I never thought it was going to be possible and thought it was going to be possible and thought it was going to be possible and I'm going to do it out of a good restful I'm going to do it out of a good restful I'm going to do it out of a good restful heart out of overflow. heart out of overflow. heart out of overflow. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Anything else we haven't touched on that Anything else we haven't touched on that Anything else we haven't touched on that you think we should touch on? you think we should touch on? you think we should touch on? Yeah, you know, I think Jerry so Yeah, you know, I think Jerry so Yeah, you know, I think Jerry so I am very passionate I am very passionate I am very passionate about people who don't know Christ about people who don't know Christ about people who don't know Christ coming to know him. coming to know him. coming to know him. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Uh number number one because Uh number number one because Uh number number one because Jesus said the son of man came to seek Jesus said the son of man came to seek Jesus said the son of man came to seek and save the lost. But number two, that and save the lost. But number two, that and save the lost. But number two, that was my story. For 26 years I I didn't was my story. For 26 years I I didn't was my story. For 26 years I I didn't know Jesus. For 26 years I didn't know know Jesus. For 26 years I didn't know know Jesus. For 26 years I didn't know him. him. him. And to think that there are people And to think that there are people And to think that there are people who don't know who don't know who don't know the abundant life of Christ, the the abundant life of Christ, the the abundant life of Christ, the forgiveness of Christ, the mercy of forgiveness of Christ, the mercy of forgiveness of Christ, the mercy of Christ, the Christ, the Christ, the the amazement of like like when I think the amazement of like like when I think the amazement of like like when I think back to the insecure stutterer back to the insecure stutterer back to the insecure stutterer hurt child that I was. And when I say hurt child that I was. And when I say hurt child that I was. And when I say child, I mean 22-year-old man.

child, I mean 22-year-old man. child, I mean 22-year-old man. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. To who I am today, I don't want anybody To who I am today, I don't want anybody To who I am today, I don't want anybody to not experience it. to not experience it. to not experience it. So, when I wrote Lit Up with Love, So, when I wrote Lit Up with Love, So, when I wrote Lit Up with Love, it's different than most books on it's different than most books on it's different than most books on evangelism, respectfully. Most books on evangelism, respectfully. Most books on evangelism, respectfully. Most books on evangelism gives you, you know, this is evangelism gives you, you know, this is evangelism gives you, you know, this is how-tos. My book starts with how-tos. My book starts with how-tos. My book starts with here's what Christ has done to love you. here's what Christ has done to love you. here's what Christ has done to love you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's how his love heals you. Here's how his love heals you. Here's how his love heals you. Now go Now go Now go and introduce others to the person and introduce others to the person and introduce others to the person who transformed your life. It's not a who transformed your life. It's not a who transformed your life. It's not a prepackaged sales pitch. It's like I'm prepackaged sales pitch. It's like I'm prepackaged sales pitch. It's like I'm dancing to the rhythm of God's grace, dancing to the rhythm of God's grace, dancing to the rhythm of God's grace, and you invite others in. Matter of and you invite others in. Matter of and you invite others in. Matter of fact, the illustration I get in People fact, the illustration I get in People fact, the illustration I get in People don't do this as much anymore, but you don't do this as much anymore, but you don't do this as much anymore, but you know, you have a park on a summer day, know, you have a park on a summer day, know, you have a park on a summer day, and someone turns on music, and they and someone turns on music, and they and someone turns on music, and they start dancing, and another person start dancing, and another person start dancing, and another person dances, then for you know what, dances, then for you know what, dances, then for you know what, everybody's dancing. That's really what everybody's dancing. That's really what everybody's dancing. That's really what Lit Up with Love is. It's like you're Lit Up with Love is. It's like you're Lit Up with Love is. It's like you're dancing to the rhythm of God's grace so dancing to the rhythm of God's grace so dancing to the rhythm of God's grace so much so that other people go, "What are much so that other people go, "What are much so that other people go, "What are you listening to?"

you listening to?" you listening to?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I really picked up that shift. I No, I I really picked up that shift. I No, I I really picked up that shift. I picked up that shift in your demeanor. picked up that shift in your demeanor. picked up that shift in your demeanor. It's very evident in Lit Up with Love, It's very evident in Lit Up with Love, It's very evident in Lit Up with Love, and I think it's a beautiful alternative and I think it's a beautiful alternative and I think it's a beautiful alternative vision for the church. So, vision for the church. So, vision for the church. So, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for today. thank you. Thank you. Thanks for today. thank you. Thank you. Thanks for today. Thanks for the convo. Thanks for getting Thanks for the convo. Thanks for getting Thanks for the convo. Thanks for getting real. real. real. And um And um And um you know, it's good to see a guy who you know, it's good to see a guy who you know, it's good to see a guy who started out as the evangelism linebacker started out as the evangelism linebacker started out as the evangelism linebacker talking all about love, man. All about talking all about love, man. All about talking all about love, man. All about love. love. love. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. those videos if they pop up. They're those videos if they pop up. They're those videos if they pop up. They're amazing. They're amazing, man. amazing. They're amazing, man. amazing. They're amazing, man. The the only thing I want for you, The the only thing I want for you, The the only thing I want for you, buddy, is that you take me fishing in in buddy, is that you take me fishing in in buddy, is that you take me fishing in in Canada, cuz I know there's some big fish Canada, cuz I know there's some big fish Canada, cuz I know there's some big fish in Canada. in Canada. in Canada. There are. Well, there's a lake right There are. Well, there's a lake right There are. Well, there's a lake right across the street and I'm going to get across the street and I'm going to get across the street and I'm going to get my boat out this weekend. So, that's my boat out this weekend. So, that's my boat out this weekend. So, that's that's a date. that's a date. that's a date. Derwin, thank you so much. The new book Derwin, thank you so much. The new book Derwin, thank you so much. The new book is called Lit Up With Love. It's is called Lit Up With Love. It's is called Lit Up With Love. It's available absolutely everywhere. You've available absolutely everywhere. You've available absolutely everywhere. You've got all kinds of resources with it as got all kinds of resources with it as got all kinds of resources with it as well. So, if people want to track with well. So, if people want to track with well. So, if people want to track with you or find the book online, you or find the book online, you or find the book online, easy places to find you on the inner easy places to find you on the inner easy places to find you on the inner webs?

webs? webs? Yep, just @DerwinLGray. Yep, just @DerwinLGray. Yep, just @DerwinLGray. That's Insta- Instagram or you can go to That's Insta- Instagram or you can go to That's Insta- Instagram or you can go to derwinlgray.com. derwinlgray.com. derwinlgray.com. I'm pretty easy to to find. I'm pretty easy to to find. I'm pretty easy to to find. That's great. Derwin, till next time. That's great. Derwin, till next time. That's great. Derwin, till next time. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Appreciate it, bro.