Church Growth Has Limits? And My Elder Board is Micromanaging Me!

This is just blunt, but it's true. This is just blunt, but it's true. Sometimes it's because churches are Sometimes it's because churches are Sometimes it's because churches are disorganized. Welcome to the Carrie disorganized. Welcome to the Carrie disorganized. Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. So glad Newhoff leadership podcast. So glad Newhoff leadership podcast. So glad you're joining us today, whether you're you're joining us today, whether you're you're joining us today, whether you're watching or listening. Hey, we're going watching or listening. Hey, we're going watching or listening. Hey, we're going to pick my brain. I tried this last to pick my brain. I tried this last to pick my brain. I tried this last month. Uh you had a great response to it month. Uh you had a great response to it month. Uh you had a great response to it and so we're taking young leaders and so we're taking young leaders and so we're taking young leaders questions here on the podcast. I questions here on the podcast. I questions here on the podcast. I collected them on social media and collected them on social media and collected them on social media and inside my art of leadership academy. So inside my art of leadership academy. So inside my art of leadership academy. So we're going to get to as many as we can. we're going to get to as many as we can. we're going to get to as many as we can. Today it is a pick my brain episode. Today it is a pick my brain episode. Today it is a pick my brain episode. Well, last month we kind of focused more Well, last month we kind of focused more Well, last month we kind of focused more on personal questions about you as a on personal questions about you as a on personal questions about you as a leader, like what's going on inside. leader, like what's going on inside. leader, like what's going on inside. This month I'm going to tackle your This month I'm going to tackle your This month I'm going to tackle your church growth and organizational church growth and organizational church growth and organizational challenges. Hey, if you are watching challenges. Hey, if you are watching challenges. Hey, if you are watching this on YouTube, I am giving away a copy this on YouTube, I am giving away a copy this on YouTube, I am giving away a copy of my book, At Your Best: How to Get of my book, At Your Best: How to Get of my book, At Your Best: How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor. Five lucky winners are going Your Favor. Five lucky winners are going Your Favor. Five lucky winners are going to be able to pick up a copy of this to be able to pick up a copy of this to be able to pick up a copy of this free. So, to enter the giveaway, just free. So, to enter the giveaway, just free. So, to enter the giveaway, just leave a comment on this on my YouTube leave a comment on this on my YouTube leave a comment on this on my YouTube saying, "I'm ready to live at my best." saying, "I'm ready to live at my best." saying, "I'm ready to live at my best." All right, you type that into the All right, you type that into the All right, you type that into the comments and uh my team is going to pick comments and uh my team is going to pick comments and uh my team is going to pick five lucky winners. If you're listening five lucky winners. If you're listening five lucky winners. If you're listening to this, hey, head on over to YouTube, to this, hey, head on over to YouTube, to this, hey, head on over to YouTube, subscribe to the Carrie New Hoff channel subscribe to the Carrie New Hoff channel subscribe to the Carrie New Hoff channel and uh well, leave your comment and and uh well, leave your comment and and uh well, leave your comment and you're good. Now, wherever you're you're good. Now, wherever you're you're good. Now, wherever you're listening to this, I want to welcome all listening to this, I want to welcome all listening to this, I want to welcome all of our new listeners, all of our new of our new listeners, all of our new of our new listeners, all of our new viewers. Uh we're really glad that viewers. Uh we're really glad that viewers. Uh we're really glad that you're here. Man, it's one of my you're here. Man, it's one of my you're here. Man, it's one of my favorite seasons. It's spring. The warm favorite seasons. It's spring. The warm favorite seasons. It's spring. The warm weather is coming. I got a new bike. I'm weather is coming. I got a new bike. I'm weather is coming. I got a new bike. I'm gonna be listening to a ton of podcasts gonna be listening to a ton of podcasts gonna be listening to a ton of podcasts uh as I am racking up the miles around uh as I am racking up the miles around uh as I am racking up the miles around my community. I'd love to know what my community. I'd love to know what my community. I'd love to know what you're doing as well. So, wherever

you're doing as well. So, wherever you're doing as well. So, wherever you're listening, follow, hit the follow you're listening, follow, hit the follow you're listening, follow, hit the follow button, subscribe, drop in the comments button, subscribe, drop in the comments button, subscribe, drop in the comments how you listen to this podcast. And how you listen to this podcast. And how you listen to this podcast. And before we dive into the questions, here before we dive into the questions, here before we dive into the questions, here is a word from our very carefully is a word from our very carefully is a word from our very carefully selected partners. Today's episode is selected partners. Today's episode is selected partners. Today's episode is brought to you by Upward Sports. So, brought to you by Upward Sports. So, brought to you by Upward Sports. So, I've got Travis Vaughn. He's a director I've got Travis Vaughn. He's a director I've got Travis Vaughn. He's a director at Upward Sports. Travis, I'd love to at Upward Sports. Travis, I'd love to at Upward Sports. Travis, I'd love to know how does Upward help churches know how does Upward help churches know how does Upward help churches connect with their community. You know, connect with their community. You know, connect with their community. You know, sports is a great connector and by sports is a great connector and by sports is a great connector and by offering an intentional outreach offering an intentional outreach offering an intentional outreach ministry like Upward Sports, you get to ministry like Upward Sports, you get to ministry like Upward Sports, you get to engage families around your church and engage families around your church and engage families around your church and build relationships with them. You know, build relationships with them. You know, build relationships with them. You know, I like to do this through numbers. And I like to do this through numbers. And I like to do this through numbers. And so, I'll give you some quick numbers so, I'll give you some quick numbers so, I'll give you some quick numbers here. Sure. You know, our leagues here. Sure. You know, our leagues here. Sure. You know, our leagues generally run 10 to 12 weeks. And within generally run 10 to 12 weeks. And within generally run 10 to 12 weeks. And within each one of those weeks, you get a each one of those weeks, you get a each one of those weeks, you get a practice and a game each week. And our practice and a game each week. And our practice and a game each week. And our average size across the country for average size across the country for average size across the country for across all of our different sports is across all of our different sports is across all of our different sports is 160 players per league. And we know 160 players per league. And we know 160 players per league. And we know through some of our statistics that 51% through some of our statistics that 51% through some of our statistics that 51% of those people that play in our leagues of those people that play in our leagues of those people that play in our leagues are completely unchurched. And so what are completely unchurched. And so what are completely unchurched. And so what that means there is that with 160 that means there is that with 160 that means there is that with 160 players, 81 or so of those players on players, 81 or so of those players on players, 81 or so of those players on average are going to be completely average are going to be completely average are going to be completely unchurched. Those people, those players unchurched. Those people, those players unchurched. Those people, those players are going to bring three other people are going to bring three other people are going to bring three other people with them to game days. That's 240 more with them to game days. That's 240 more with them to game days. That's 240 more people that's going to come to your people that's going to come to your people that's going to come to your campus and they're going to come about campus and they're going to come about campus and they're going to come about 20 times throughout the year between 20 times throughout the year between 20 times throughout the year between those practices and games. And so, it's those practices and games. And so, it's those practices and games. And so, it's a great chance to build relationships a great chance to build relationships a great chance to build relationships and to connect with your community. We

and to connect with your community. We and to connect with your community. We think sports is just a great way to do think sports is just a great way to do think sports is just a great way to do that. Well, Travis, thanks so much for that. Well, Travis, thanks so much for that. Well, Travis, thanks so much for sharing with us today. If people want to sharing with us today. If people want to sharing with us today. If people want to learn more, you can go to learn more, you can go to learn more, you can go to upward.org. That's upward.org/ or upward.org. That's upward.org/ or upward.org. That's upward.org/ or rg/cy to learn more and get involved rg/cy to learn more and get involved rg/cy to learn more and get involved today. Okay, let's dive into your today. Okay, let's dive into your today. Okay, let's dive into your questions. So, Graeme, who's part of my questions. So, Graeme, who's part of my questions. So, Graeme, who's part of my Art of Leadership Academy, asked this. Art of Leadership Academy, asked this. Art of Leadership Academy, asked this. He said, "Is there a natural ceiling He said, "Is there a natural ceiling He said, "Is there a natural ceiling that the church cannot grow beyond that the church cannot grow beyond that the church cannot grow beyond regardless of scalability or structural regardless of scalability or structural regardless of scalability or structural changes? If so, how do you determine changes? If so, how do you determine changes? If so, how do you determine your top-end potential?" Graham, I don't your top-end potential?" Graham, I don't your top-end potential?" Graham, I don't get this question a lot. I really like get this question a lot. I really like get this question a lot. I really like your question. I want to suggest to you, your question. I want to suggest to you, your question. I want to suggest to you, Graham, that there are three factors, Graham, that there are three factors, Graham, that there are three factors, okay? There's the capacity of the okay? There's the capacity of the okay? There's the capacity of the leader, the size of the community, and leader, the size of the community, and leader, the size of the community, and then how you structure for growth. So, then how you structure for growth. So, then how you structure for growth. So, let's break those down one by one. let's break those down one by one. let's break those down one by one. Capacity of the leader. So, Graeme, when Capacity of the leader. So, Graeme, when Capacity of the leader. So, Graeme, when I was in seminary, uh there was a buddy I was in seminary, uh there was a buddy I was in seminary, uh there was a buddy that I would golf with every Monday. that I would golf with every Monday. that I would golf with every Monday. Why? Because pastors golfed free. And I Why? Because pastors golfed free. And I Why? Because pastors golfed free. And I remember one round in particular, my remember one round in particular, my remember one round in particular, my friend Andrew turned to me and he just friend Andrew turned to me and he just friend Andrew turned to me and he just said, "You know what, Carrie? Here's my said, "You know what, Carrie? Here's my said, "You know what, Carrie? Here's my theory of leadership. Everybody's got a theory of leadership. Everybody's got a theory of leadership. Everybody's got a number on their back." And I said, "What number on their back." And I said, "What number on their back." And I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, I just do you mean?" And he said, "Well, I just do you mean?" And he said, "Well, I just think like maybe your number's 200.

think like maybe your number's 200. think like maybe your number's 200. That's just what you're designed to That's just what you're designed to That's just what you're designed to lead. Some people have a bigger number. lead. Some people have a bigger number. lead. Some people have a bigger number. Maybe their number's a th00and, 500, you Maybe their number's a th00and, 500, you Maybe their number's a th00and, 500, you know, 10,000, whatever. Maybe your know, 10,000, whatever. Maybe your know, 10,000, whatever. Maybe your number is 50." I've never forgotten that number is 50." I've never forgotten that number is 50." I've never forgotten that and it kind of resonates. You know, you and it kind of resonates. You know, you and it kind of resonates. You know, you look at some of the past podcast guests look at some of the past podcast guests look at some of the past podcast guests we've had like a Craig Greselle or we've had like a Craig Greselle or we've had like a Craig Greselle or Christine Kaine or Chris Hodes, they've Christine Kaine or Chris Hodes, they've Christine Kaine or Chris Hodes, they've got pretty big numbers, okay? when got pretty big numbers, okay? when got pretty big numbers, okay? when you're reaching 70, 80,000 people, you're reaching 70, 80,000 people, you're reaching 70, 80,000 people, millions of people cumulatively in your millions of people cumulatively in your millions of people cumulatively in your ministry, Mike Todd, someone like that, ministry, Mike Todd, someone like that, ministry, Mike Todd, someone like that, it's a big number on their back. Now, it's a big number on their back. Now, it's a big number on their back. Now, other people are more like shepherds, other people are more like shepherds, other people are more like shepherds, okay? So, their number isn't as big. okay? So, their number isn't as big. okay? So, their number isn't as big. They're not really into scale. Uh They're not really into scale. Uh They're not really into scale. Uh they're not motivated to go and read how they're not motivated to go and read how they're not motivated to go and read how to grow and scale. So, some of you are to grow and scale. So, some of you are to grow and scale. So, some of you are shepherds. And I think that's something shepherds. And I think that's something shepherds. And I think that's something you really need to acknowledge. And you really need to acknowledge. And you really need to acknowledge. And maybe your number is 50, maybe your maybe your number is 50, maybe your maybe your number is 50, maybe your number is 60. I think you can learn um number is 60. I think you can learn um number is 60. I think you can learn um along the way. I think you can maybe do along the way. I think you can maybe do along the way. I think you can maybe do things to expand your number. I things to expand your number. I things to expand your number. I definitely had to expand my number. Me, definitely had to expand my number. Me, definitely had to expand my number. Me, what I've learned about myself, for what I've learned about myself, for what I've learned about myself, for example, is that I'm okay with a large example, is that I'm okay with a large example, is that I'm okay with a large audience. I don't mind speaking to audience. I don't mind speaking to audience. I don't mind speaking to thousands or or, you know, through thousands or or, you know, through thousands or or, you know, through digital means, millions of people. Um digital means, millions of people. Um digital means, millions of people. Um but I tend to do better with small but I tend to do better with small but I tend to do better with small staffs. I mean, some people listening staffs. I mean, some people listening staffs. I mean, some people listening this podcast have 500 staff. Um awesome.

this podcast have 500 staff. Um awesome. this podcast have 500 staff. Um awesome. That's great. I think I would melt down. That's great. I think I would melt down. That's great. I think I would melt down. I love a small team. Right now, we've I love a small team. Right now, we've I love a small team. Right now, we've got three or four people on our team. got three or four people on our team. got three or four people on our team. It's fantastic. It's great. I love it. It's fantastic. It's great. I love it. It's fantastic. It's great. I love it. It's manageable. It works for me. Large It's manageable. It works for me. Large It's manageable. It works for me. Large audience doesn't bother me at all. Um, audience doesn't bother me at all. Um, audience doesn't bother me at all. Um, so that's a little bit about my number. so that's a little bit about my number. so that's a little bit about my number. So, I would look at that. And then, are So, I would look at that. And then, are So, I would look at that. And then, are there ways to manipulate your number? there ways to manipulate your number? there ways to manipulate your number? Well, yes, there are. I'm going to get Well, yes, there are. I'm going to get Well, yes, there are. I'm going to get to that in just a minute. Maybe, you to that in just a minute. Maybe, you to that in just a minute. Maybe, you know, you're saying, "Okay, right now I know, you're saying, "Okay, right now I know, you're saying, "Okay, right now I just naturally kind of land at 100 just naturally kind of land at 100 just naturally kind of land at 100 people, but I want to reach more people, people, but I want to reach more people, people, but I want to reach more people, right? Because that's a mission of the right? Because that's a mission of the right? Because that's a mission of the church." Well, awesome. We will talk in church." Well, awesome. We will talk in church." Well, awesome. We will talk in just a minute about how you can expand just a minute about how you can expand just a minute about how you can expand your number. Okay? But first, I want to your number. Okay? But first, I want to your number. Okay? But first, I want to talk about the size of your community. talk about the size of your community. talk about the size of your community. So, we talked about the number of the So, we talked about the number of the So, we talked about the number of the leader, like what's your number? And leader, like what's your number? And leader, like what's your number? And then next, let's look at the size of the then next, let's look at the size of the then next, let's look at the size of the community. So, obviously, if you're in a community. So, obviously, if you're in a community. So, obviously, if you're in a big city, chances are you can reach more big city, chances are you can reach more big city, chances are you can reach more people. If you're in a small town or a people. If you're in a small town or a people. If you're in a small town or a rural municipality, you're going to have rural municipality, you're going to have rural municipality, you're going to have a smaller church. But it doesn't always a smaller church. But it doesn't always a smaller church. But it doesn't always work out that way. So, think about it, work out that way. So, think about it, work out that way. So, think about it, and you already know this, right? There and you already know this, right? There and you already know this, right? There are big churches in small towns and tiny are big churches in small towns and tiny are big churches in small towns and tiny churches in huge cities. You can be in churches in huge cities. You can be in churches in huge cities. You can be in New York City, there's a church that New York City, there's a church that New York City, there's a church that meets on Sunday morning. It's got 28 meets on Sunday morning. It's got 28 meets on Sunday morning. It's got 28 people in it. That's it. I've been in people in it. That's it. I've been in people in it. That's it. I've been in major cities with almost no people major cities with almost no people major cities with almost no people inside the churches. And I know of some inside the churches. And I know of some inside the churches. And I know of some small towns that have huge churches.

small towns that have huge churches. small towns that have huge churches. Like I remember there was one town in Like I remember there was one town in Like I remember there was one town in Ohio pastor I've known and I think the Ohio pastor I've known and I think the Ohio pastor I've known and I think the church was maybe 10,000 people but he church was maybe 10,000 people but he church was maybe 10,000 people but he had a church of had a church of had a church of 1300. So that's kind of interesting. So 1300. So that's kind of interesting. So 1300. So that's kind of interesting. So how do you know your potential? Well, how do you know your potential? Well, how do you know your potential? Well, here's what I would suggest. Do you here's what I would suggest. Do you here's what I would suggest. Do you remember back in elementary school, high remember back in elementary school, high remember back in elementary school, high school, they had this thing called a school, they had this thing called a school, they had this thing called a drafting compass? Okay, it was just like drafting compass? Okay, it was just like drafting compass? Okay, it was just like had a little point on it and then had a little point on it and then had a little point on it and then another area for a pencil, two arms, and another area for a pencil, two arms, and another area for a pencil, two arms, and you could just kind of make it wider or you could just kind of make it wider or you could just kind of make it wider or smaller and then you draw a circle smaller and then you draw a circle smaller and then you draw a circle around it. So, think about that drafting around it. So, think about that drafting around it. So, think about that drafting compass is what it's called and draw compass is what it's called and draw compass is what it's called and draw about a 30 minute radius around your about a 30 minute radius around your about a 30 minute radius around your church. church. church. Okay, that will tell you your total Okay, that will tell you your total Okay, that will tell you your total addressable market or your potential addressable market or your potential addressable market or your potential reach. So, within a 30 minute drive of reach. So, within a 30 minute drive of reach. So, within a 30 minute drive of our churches, there's about 400,000 our churches, there's about 400,000 our churches, there's about 400,000 people. There might be 40,000 near you. people. There might be 40,000 near you. people. There might be 40,000 near you. Um, there might be 4,000. There might be Um, there might be 4,000. There might be Um, there might be 4,000. There might be four million. I don't know. But that's four million. I don't know. But that's four million. I don't know. But that's probably the potential of the people you probably the potential of the people you probably the potential of the people you could reach. You're You should try to could reach. You're You should try to could reach. You're You should try to reach all of them. You're not going to reach all of them. You're not going to reach all of them. You're not going to reach all of them, but you can reach a reach all of them, but you can reach a reach all of them, but you can reach a percentage of them. So, I think about my percentage of them. So, I think about my percentage of them. So, I think about my friend Matt. You know, town of 10,000.

friend Matt. You know, town of 10,000. friend Matt. You know, town of 10,000. He's got a church of 1300. All right. He's got a church of 1300. All right. He's got a church of 1300. All right. That's That's That's amazing. Can he see 2500? Possibly. But amazing. Can he see 2500? Possibly. But amazing. Can he see 2500? Possibly. But that would be about 25% of the town goes that would be about 25% of the town goes that would be about 25% of the town goes to his church. That would be amazing. to his church. That would be amazing. to his church. That would be amazing. Like Guinness Book of World Records. Is Like Guinness Book of World Records. Is Like Guinness Book of World Records. Is it going to reach 100,000? Probably not it going to reach 100,000? Probably not it going to reach 100,000? Probably not in his location, but you can probably do in his location, but you can probably do in his location, but you can probably do more. When you know I started in our more. When you know I started in our more. When you know I started in our churches, our community population was churches, our community population was churches, our community population was about 16,000 and we saw that grow to a about 16,000 and we saw that grow to a about 16,000 and we saw that grow to a church of about 800. So that was, you church of about 800. So that was, you church of about 800. So that was, you know, not bad. It wasn't quite 10%, but know, not bad. It wasn't quite 10%, but know, not bad. It wasn't quite 10%, but it was a good percentage. Within a it was a good percentage. Within a it was a good percentage. Within a 30-minut drive, there were maybe 150,000 30-minut drive, there were maybe 150,000 30-minut drive, there were maybe 150,000 people of the original churches. Now, people of the original churches. Now, people of the original churches. Now, nice thing about living in the era that nice thing about living in the era that nice thing about living in the era that we're living in now is you've also got we're living in now is you've also got we're living in now is you've also got the internet, right? You can do a the internet, right? You can do a the internet, right? You can do a podcast like this from my basement if podcast like this from my basement if podcast like this from my basement if you're watching. This is my basement. We you're watching. This is my basement. We you're watching. This is my basement. We have millions upon millions of have millions upon millions of have millions upon millions of downloads. So, you've got a bigger reach downloads. So, you've got a bigger reach downloads. So, you've got a bigger reach because of the internet. So, that's because of the internet. So, that's because of the internet. So, that's something to think about. Um, and what I something to think about. Um, and what I something to think about. Um, and what I want to do is I want to go to the want to do is I want to go to the want to do is I want to go to the question under the question because question under the question because question under the question because sometimes questions like that can reveal sometimes questions like that can reveal sometimes questions like that can reveal a mindset. I'm not saying this was a mindset. I'm not saying this was a mindset. I'm not saying this was Graham's mindset, but a lot of times Graham's mindset, but a lot of times Graham's mindset, but a lot of times people are kind of saying, you know people are kind of saying, you know people are kind of saying, you know what? Well, I just have a small church, what? Well, I just have a small church, what? Well, I just have a small church, a small town. I really can't grow. That a small town. I really can't grow. That a small town. I really can't grow. That is a mindset issue. And I would not want is a mindset issue. And I would not want is a mindset issue. And I would not want to put a limit on what God can do to put a limit on what God can do to put a limit on what God can do through you. God can do anything and God through you. God can do anything and God through you. God can do anything and God can do a lot through you. I remember in can do a lot through you. I remember in can do a lot through you. I remember in uh my congregation, right? So, this is uh my congregation, right? So, this is uh my congregation, right? So, this is sort of the potential part of it like

sort of the potential part of it like sort of the potential part of it like what is your mindset? my congregation, what is your mindset? my congregation, what is your mindset? my congregation, you know, we were in a rural community you know, we were in a rural community you know, we were in a rural community at the time of 16,000. And the chair of at the time of 16,000. And the chair of at the time of 16,000. And the chair of our elders came by. His name was John. our elders came by. His name was John. our elders came by. His name was John. And John said, you know, I'm just afraid And John said, you know, I'm just afraid And John said, you know, I'm just afraid you're going to go to some big mega you're going to go to some big mega you're going to go to some big mega church in the US. You're going to leave church in the US. You're going to leave church in the US. You're going to leave us here. And I remember being caught off us here. And I remember being caught off us here. And I remember being caught off guard by the question. And I don't know guard by the question. And I don't know guard by the question. And I don't know why this came to me, but this came to why this came to me, but this came to why this came to me, but this came to me. I just leaned over the desk. I was me. I just leaned over the desk. I was me. I just leaned over the desk. I was sitting, he was standing. And I I just sitting, he was standing. And I I just sitting, he was standing. And I I just said to John, I said, "You know what? I said to John, I said, "You know what? I said to John, I said, "You know what? I want to build the kind of church where want to build the kind of church where want to build the kind of church where nobody has to leave this church to nobody has to leave this church to nobody has to leave this church to realize the dreams God has given them. realize the dreams God has given them. realize the dreams God has given them. Now, that was a number of years ago. I'm Now, that was a number of years ago. I'm Now, that was a number of years ago. I'm still part of that church. Now, do I still part of that church. Now, do I still part of that church. Now, do I travel all over the place? Yeah. But you travel all over the place? Yeah. But you travel all over the place? Yeah. But you got to have a big mindset. So, you got got to have a big mindset. So, you got got to have a big mindset. So, you got to look at like what's your number? You to look at like what's your number? You to look at like what's your number? You got to look at your geography. But you got to look at your geography. But you got to look at your geography. But you got to look at it. Remember, there are got to look at it. Remember, there are got to look at it. Remember, there are really big cities with tiny churches and really big cities with tiny churches and really big cities with tiny churches and small towns with big churches. So, don't small towns with big churches. So, don't small towns with big churches. So, don't let that stifle you. and then think let that stifle you. and then think let that stifle you. and then think about your mindset and how that impacts about your mindset and how that impacts about your mindset and how that impacts your potential. Okay, next question. your potential. Okay, next question. your potential. Okay, next question. Russell wants to know, "How do you help Russell wants to know, "How do you help Russell wants to know, "How do you help a small church with big potential get a small church with big potential get a small church with big potential get motivated to reach the community?" Well, motivated to reach the community?" Well, motivated to reach the community?" Well, the best way I know how, Russell, is is the best way I know how, Russell, is is the best way I know how, Russell, is is to ask this question. Do you want to to ask this question. Do you want to to ask this question. Do you want to create a church your kids and grandkids create a church your kids and grandkids create a church your kids and grandkids will love? That's it. So, you got a will love? That's it. So, you got a will love? That's it. So, you got a small church. It's got potential, but small church. It's got potential, but small church. It's got potential, but people aren't really motivated to reach people aren't really motivated to reach people aren't really motivated to reach the community. You can say we want to the community. You can say we want to the community. You can say we want to reach a million people, but people reach a million people, but people reach a million people, but people aren't people aren't motivated by that.

aren't people aren't motivated by that. aren't people aren't motivated by that. I mean, maybe they are. You're going to, I mean, maybe they are. You're going to, I mean, maybe they are. You're going to, you know, the leaders who are like, you know, the leaders who are like, you know, the leaders who are like, "Yeah, let's go." But for the most part, "Yeah, let's go." But for the most part, "Yeah, let's go." But for the most part, people are motivated by the things that people are motivated by the things that people are motivated by the things that matter to them personally. And I matter to them personally. And I matter to them personally. And I remember coming to the original churches remember coming to the original churches remember coming to the original churches as a young leader and they were small, as a young leader and they were small, as a young leader and they were small, six people, 14 people, 23 people. And I six people, 14 people, 23 people. And I six people, 14 people, 23 people. And I was 30 and they were all like 70, 75. was 30 and they were all like 70, 75. was 30 and they were all like 70, 75. And I thought, okay, how do I motivate And I thought, okay, how do I motivate And I thought, okay, how do I motivate these people to do more? So within a few these people to do more? So within a few these people to do more? So within a few months I just started asking the months I just started asking the months I just started asking the question, hey do you want to because question, hey do you want to because question, hey do you want to because they were saying you know our kids don't they were saying you know our kids don't they were saying you know our kids don't come or grandkids don't come and so the come or grandkids don't come and so the come or grandkids don't come and so the question became question became question became hey do you want to create the kind of hey do you want to create the kind of hey do you want to create the kind of church your kids and grandkids would church your kids and grandkids would church your kids and grandkids would want to attend. And for the most part to want to attend. And for the most part to want to attend. And for the most part to that the answer is yes. Now you're going that the answer is yes. Now you're going that the answer is yes. Now you're going to get some push back. I remember there to get some push back. I remember there to get some push back. I remember there was one woman she was maybe around 80 at was one woman she was maybe around 80 at was one woman she was maybe around 80 at the time. Uh she was really sweet her the time. Uh she was really sweet her the time. Uh she was really sweet her name was Helen. We had uh an elders name was Helen. We had uh an elders name was Helen. We had uh an elders meeting and Helen was there one night meeting and Helen was there one night meeting and Helen was there one night and she just said when I was casting and she just said when I was casting and she just said when I was casting vision for the future and we're going to vision for the future and we're going to vision for the future and we're going to have a church that's going to reach have a church that's going to reach have a church that's going to reach hundreds of people, thousands of people hundreds of people, thousands of people hundreds of people, thousands of people and you know there's so many people and you know there's so many people and you know there's so many people nearby. She just looked at me nearby. She just looked at me nearby. She just looked at me incredulously and she incredulously and she incredulously and she said, "Carrie, I know everybody in this said, "Carrie, I know everybody in this said, "Carrie, I know everybody in this community and they're all old and they community and they're all old and they community and they're all old and they don't have kids and they all go to don't have kids and they all go to don't have kids and they all go to church." I'm like, "Huh, okay." Okay.

church." I'm like, "Huh, okay." Okay. church." I'm like, "Huh, okay." Okay. And I I didn't want to like embarrass And I I didn't want to like embarrass And I I didn't want to like embarrass her or say anything publicly. I'm like, her or say anything publicly. I'm like, her or say anything publicly. I'm like, "All right, point taken." So, I went "All right, point taken." So, I went "All right, point taken." So, I went home and I did some research. I went to home and I did some research. I went to home and I did some research. I went to government websites and I came back to government websites and I came back to government websites and I came back to the next meeting with my homework and I the next meeting with my homework and I the next meeting with my homework and I said, "Helen, thanks so much for your said, "Helen, thanks so much for your said, "Helen, thanks so much for your point. I really appreciate it." Uh, I point. I really appreciate it." Uh, I point. I really appreciate it." Uh, I did some research. You know, there are did some research. You know, there are did some research. You know, there are five elementary schools here. Did you five elementary schools here. Did you five elementary schools here. Did you know that there are 70% of the people know that there are 70% of the people know that there are 70% of the people within a 30-minute drive of these within a 30-minute drive of these within a 30-minute drive of these churches have young children at home? churches have young children at home? churches have young children at home? Their parents with young children at Their parents with young children at Their parents with young children at home. She was shocked. Now, when you're home. She was shocked. Now, when you're home. She was shocked. Now, when you're 80, okay, probably you think everybody 80, okay, probably you think everybody 80, okay, probably you think everybody else is 80 and everybody else, you know, else is 80 and everybody else, you know, else is 80 and everybody else, you know, because you're a Christian, goes to because you're a Christian, goes to because you're a Christian, goes to church. I'm not blaming her for that, church. I'm not blaming her for that, church. I'm not blaming her for that, but you can get into that kind of but you can get into that kind of but you can get into that kind of mindset, right? Where people think, mindset, right? Where people think, mindset, right? Where people think, well, I don't really have um anybody we well, I don't really have um anybody we well, I don't really have um anybody we can reach. And her kids weren't can reach. And her kids weren't can reach. And her kids weren't interested in coming to church, but you interested in coming to church, but you interested in coming to church, but you know, when the answer was no, I just had know, when the answer was no, I just had know, when the answer was no, I just had to share, well, here are the facts. And to share, well, here are the facts. And to share, well, here are the facts. And then she's like, oh, okay. So, you may then she's like, oh, okay. So, you may then she's like, oh, okay. So, you may want to do some research and show people want to do some research and show people want to do some research and show people that more is possible. But the best way that more is possible. But the best way that more is possible. But the best way I know how is just say, "Hey, do you I know how is just say, "Hey, do you I know how is just say, "Hey, do you want to create the kind of church that want to create the kind of church that want to create the kind of church that your kids and grandkids want to attend?"

your kids and grandkids want to attend?" your kids and grandkids want to attend?" If you want more on that, if you go back If you want more on that, if you go back If you want more on that, if you go back to episode 634 of the podcast, I to episode 634 of the podcast, I to episode 634 of the podcast, I interview Daryl Kripe and he talks about interview Daryl Kripe and he talks about interview Daryl Kripe and he talks about a variation of that question. He says, a variation of that question. He says, a variation of that question. He says, "Hey, who's your one?" He encourages "Hey, who's your one?" He encourages "Hey, who's your one?" He encourages everybody to say, "Don't think about everybody to say, "Don't think about everybody to say, "Don't think about people. Don't think plural. Think about people. Don't think plural. Think about people. Don't think plural. Think about one person you want to meet, one person one person you want to meet, one person one person you want to meet, one person you want to reach. get personally you want to reach. get personally you want to reach. get personally involved. Who are you building into? He involved. Who are you building into? He involved. Who are you building into? He has seen that turn over so many people has seen that turn over so many people has seen that turn over so many people who are not motivated. I really hope who are not motivated. I really hope who are not motivated. I really hope that helps. All right, let's go to the that helps. All right, let's go to the that helps. All right, let's go to the next question. Christopher wants to next question. Christopher wants to next question. Christopher wants to know, "How do you balance respect for know, "How do you balance respect for know, "How do you balance respect for tradition with a clear need for change tradition with a clear need for change tradition with a clear need for change in a dying organization?" Man, very in a dying organization?" Man, very in a dying organization?" Man, very thoughtful phrasing of the question. You thoughtful phrasing of the question. You thoughtful phrasing of the question. You got respect for tradition. don't want to got respect for tradition. don't want to got respect for tradition. don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, throw the baby out with the bathwater, throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you have a clear need for change. but you have a clear need for change. but you have a clear need for change. Like clearly this is only working for Like clearly this is only working for Like clearly this is only working for the handful of you who think that this the handful of you who think that this the handful of you who think that this is good because you're in a dying is good because you're in a dying is good because you're in a dying organization, right? I remember talking organization, right? I remember talking organization, right? I remember talking to a Disney Imagineer once. And you to a Disney Imagineer once. And you to a Disney Imagineer once. And you think about Disney, it's a 100-year-old think about Disney, it's a 100-year-old think about Disney, it's a 100-year-old company now. What do you do? Like the company now. What do you do? Like the company now. What do you do? Like the Mickey Mouse of 1928 is not the Mickey Mickey Mouse of 1928 is not the Mickey Mickey Mouse of 1928 is not the Mickey Mouse of 2008 or 2025, right? It's not Mouse of 2008 or 2025, right? It's not Mouse of 2008 or 2025, right? It's not the same. And he said, "This is what we the same. And he said, "This is what we the same. And he said, "This is what we do at Disney." He says, "You want to do at Disney." He says, "You want to do at Disney." He says, "You want to honor the past, but don't live in it." I honor the past, but don't live in it." I honor the past, but don't live in it." I thought, "That's great. That's a great thought, "That's great. That's a great thought, "That's great. That's a great mantra for congregations. You want to mantra for congregations. You want to mantra for congregations. You want to honor the past, but you don't want to honor the past, but you don't want to honor the past, but you don't want to live in it." Now, that said, you're live in it." Now, that said, you're live in it." Now, that said, you're going to have to make some hard calls.

going to have to make some hard calls. going to have to make some hard calls. When we were moving out of the original When we were moving out of the original When we were moving out of the original historic buildings that we had uh into historic buildings that we had uh into historic buildings that we had uh into our first building that we built our first building that we built our first building that we built together, when we amalgamated these together, when we amalgamated these together, when we amalgamated these three small churches, I was a young three small churches, I was a young three small churches, I was a young pastor. I had to make some decisions. pastor. I had to make some decisions. pastor. I had to make some decisions. And I made them with the elders. And And I made them with the elders. And And I made them with the elders. And here's what we decided. We decided, you here's what we decided. We decided, you here's what we decided. We decided, you know, even though people love know, even though people love know, even though people love traditional worship, in the new traditional worship, in the new traditional worship, in the new building, there was going to be no building, there was going to be no building, there was going to be no organ. In fact, we had t-shirts made up organ. In fact, we had t-shirts made up organ. In fact, we had t-shirts made up that said, "Become an organ donor." that said, "Become an organ donor." that said, "Become an organ donor." Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that, but Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that, but Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that, but anyway, that you know, you're young and anyway, that you know, you're young and anyway, that you know, you're young and stupid, so that's what we did. And uh as stupid, so that's what we did. And uh as stupid, so that's what we did. And uh as we were building it, you know, raising we were building it, you know, raising we were building it, you know, raising money is really difficult. It was my money is really difficult. It was my money is really difficult. It was my first sevenf figureure campaign. It's first sevenf figureure campaign. It's first sevenf figureure campaign. It's like you're exhausted. And there was a like you're exhausted. And there was a like you're exhausted. And there was a guy who came in to see us mid guy who came in to see us mid guy who came in to see us mid construction one day and he could see, construction one day and he could see, construction one day and he could see, you know, the windows going in and he you know, the windows going in and he you know, the windows going in and he just said, "Hey, I want to give you a just said, "Hey, I want to give you a just said, "Hey, I want to give you a gift of $30,000." Now, as a young gift of $30,000." Now, as a young gift of $30,000." Now, as a young pastor, I'm like, "Okay, you have my pastor, I'm like, "Okay, you have my pastor, I'm like, "Okay, you have my attention. $30,000 is a lot of money." attention. $30,000 is a lot of money." attention. $30,000 is a lot of money." And he said, "But here's the deal. You And he said, "But here's the deal. You And he said, "But here's the deal. You got to make a stained glass window in got to make a stained glass window in got to make a stained glass window in memory of my mother." And I remember memory of my mother." And I remember memory of my mother." And I remember standing there having to make a call a standing there having to make a call a standing there having to make a call a few years into ministry in the moment few years into ministry in the moment few years into ministry in the moment and I just said to and I just said to and I just said to him, "Thank you, but no. Thank you, but him, "Thank you, but no. Thank you, but him, "Thank you, but no. Thank you, but no. No. Um, we don't do designated no. No. Um, we don't do designated no. No. Um, we don't do designated giving." That was like a policy shift in giving." That was like a policy shift in giving." That was like a policy shift in the moment. I just made it up. Um, and I the moment. I just made it up. Um, and I the moment. I just made it up. Um, and I think that was the right call. He was think that was the right call. He was think that was the right call. He was offended. He left. But I thought as soon offended. He left. But I thought as soon offended. He left. But I thought as soon as you do that, then you get the as you do that, then you get the as you do that, then you get the memorial wing dedicated to so- and so memorial wing dedicated to so- and so memorial wing dedicated to so- and so and the so- and so library and you end and the so- and so library and you end and the so- and so library and you end up making all of these ministry

up making all of these ministry up making all of these ministry decisions that you don't want to make decisions that you don't want to make decisions that you don't want to make because there are strings attached to because there are strings attached to because there are strings attached to the donations. And so we kind of said the donations. And so we kind of said the donations. And so we kind of said no. And then we had a small room where no. And then we had a small room where no. And then we had a small room where we took a couple of items from the we took a couple of items from the we took a couple of items from the previous buildings and featured them in previous buildings and featured them in previous buildings and featured them in a tasteful way, but it was very much a a tasteful way, but it was very much a a tasteful way, but it was very much a building about the present and the building about the present and the building about the present and the future, not about the past. And the future, not about the past. And the future, not about the past. And the principle underneath all of that because principle underneath all of that because principle underneath all of that because it is a very thoughtful question is you it is a very thoughtful question is you it is a very thoughtful question is you got to remember the mission is sacred got to remember the mission is sacred got to remember the mission is sacred but the methods aren't. And particularly but the methods aren't. And particularly but the methods aren't. And particularly when you have a dying church what when you have a dying church what when you have a dying church what usually happens is they've forgotten the usually happens is they've forgotten the usually happens is they've forgotten the mission and the methods are sacred. Now mission and the methods are sacred. Now mission and the methods are sacred. Now I want to get to the other part of the I want to get to the other part of the I want to get to the other part of the question. You also ask not just you know question. You also ask not just you know question. You also ask not just you know what's the philosophy behind it but the what's the philosophy behind it but the what's the philosophy behind it but the question is how how do you do it? Okay question is how how do you do it? Okay question is how how do you do it? Okay so the the number one hack I've got on so the the number one hack I've got on so the the number one hack I've got on this is very simple. this is very simple. this is very simple. Focus on why twice as much as the what Focus on why twice as much as the what Focus on why twice as much as the what and the how. There are three questions and the how. There are three questions and the how. There are three questions that show up at the leadership table on that show up at the leadership table on that show up at the leadership table on a regular basis. What, how, and why. Why a regular basis. What, how, and why. Why a regular basis. What, how, and why. Why gets forgotten and everybody focuses on gets forgotten and everybody focuses on gets forgotten and everybody focuses on what? Well, what are we going to do?

what? Well, what are we going to do? what? Well, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? I don't agree. What are we going to do? I don't agree. What are we going to do? I don't agree. I think we should do this. Well, how are I think we should do this. Well, how are I think we should do this. Well, how are we going to do that? That doesn't even we going to do that? That doesn't even we going to do that? That doesn't even seem possible. We don't have the money. seem possible. We don't have the money. seem possible. We don't have the money. What? You're going to do this? No. Not What? You're going to do this? No. Not What? You're going to do this? No. Not that in our church. See, what and how that in our church. See, what and how that in our church. See, what and how are are are divisive. Why unites? Why is Well, divisive. Why unites? Why is Well, divisive. Why unites? Why is Well, remember we're trying to build a a a remember we're trying to build a a a remember we're trying to build a a a church for your children and church for your children and church for your children and grandchildren. We're trying to build a grandchildren. We're trying to build a grandchildren. We're trying to build a church that the person you're investing church that the person you're investing church that the person you're investing in wants to attend. We're trying to in wants to attend. We're trying to in wants to attend. We're trying to reach our community. Remember, 70% of reach our community. Remember, 70% of reach our community. Remember, 70% of people in this community are parents people in this community are parents people in this community are parents with children at home. Hey, we want to with children at home. Hey, we want to with children at home. Hey, we want to reach them. And here's the thing about reach them. And here's the thing about reach them. And here's the thing about why. People can endure a lot of pain if why. People can endure a lot of pain if why. People can endure a lot of pain if they know why, right? So maybe you're they know why, right? So maybe you're they know why, right? So maybe you're tightening your calorie intake and tightening your calorie intake and tightening your calorie intake and heading to the gym 4 days a week. That's heading to the gym 4 days a week. That's heading to the gym 4 days a week. That's not a lot of fun. I've done it many not a lot of fun. I've done it many not a lot of fun. I've done it many seasons in my life, incurring, including seasons in my life, incurring, including seasons in my life, incurring, including this one. But you're doing it because this one. But you're doing it because this one. But you're doing it because you want to have the freedom of great you want to have the freedom of great you want to have the freedom of great health, because you want to feel good health, because you want to feel good health, because you want to feel good when you wake up every single day. Or when you wake up every single day. Or when you wake up every single day. Or maybe you're taking Amazon off your maybe you're taking Amazon off your maybe you're taking Amazon off your phone and not eating out because you phone and not eating out because you phone and not eating out because you want to have financial margin and want to have financial margin and want to have financial margin and freedom down the road. So, it's like, freedom down the road. So, it's like, freedom down the road. So, it's like, yep, not going to make impulse yep, not going to make impulse yep, not going to make impulse purchases. We're going to eat at home.

purchases. We're going to eat at home. purchases. We're going to eat at home. We're going to do rice and beans because We're going to do rice and beans because We're going to do rice and beans because I know in a year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 I know in a year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 I know in a year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, the payoff is going to be huge. years, the payoff is going to be huge. years, the payoff is going to be huge. People can endure almost anything as People can endure almost anything as People can endure almost anything as long as they know why. So when you're long as they know why. So when you're long as they know why. So when you're casting vision for your church, whether casting vision for your church, whether casting vision for your church, whether that's a small group, your elder board, that's a small group, your elder board, that's a small group, your elder board, volunteers, or Sunday morning, you want volunteers, or Sunday morning, you want volunteers, or Sunday morning, you want to focus on the why twice as much as you to focus on the why twice as much as you to focus on the why twice as much as you want to focus on the what and the how. want to focus on the what and the how. want to focus on the what and the how. Okay. Next question comes from Josh. And Okay. Next question comes from Josh. And Okay. Next question comes from Josh. And Josh wants to know, "How do you lead as Josh wants to know, "How do you lead as Josh wants to know, "How do you lead as a pastor when the head elder is a pastor when the head elder is a pastor when the head elder is micromanaging you?" micromanaging you?" micromanaging you?" Woo. Okay, this is a spicy one. Josh, Woo. Okay, this is a spicy one. Josh, Woo. Okay, this is a spicy one. Josh, I'm going to be blunt. This has got to I'm going to be blunt. This has got to I'm going to be blunt. This has got to change. You cannot be micromanaged. That change. You cannot be micromanaged. That change. You cannot be micromanaged. That is a very unhealthy dynamic. I'm is a very unhealthy dynamic. I'm is a very unhealthy dynamic. I'm guessing it's not a very large church. guessing it's not a very large church. guessing it's not a very large church. Um because very rarely will a church Um because very rarely will a church Um because very rarely will a church over a thousand have a micromanaging over a thousand have a micromanaging over a thousand have a micromanaging head elder or an elder with that much head elder or an elder with that much head elder or an elder with that much power. So Josh, this gets down to the power. So Josh, this gets down to the power. So Josh, this gets down to the question of is there a clear governance question of is there a clear governance question of is there a clear governance framework right now? I'm guessing this framework right now? I'm guessing this framework right now? I'm guessing this isn't a particularly large church isn't a particularly large church isn't a particularly large church because once you get to a thousand because once you get to a thousand because once you get to a thousand people, you have to have a clear people, you have to have a clear people, you have to have a clear governance framework and that almost governance framework and that almost governance framework and that almost never involves a micromanaging head never involves a micromanaging head never involves a micromanaging head elder. Um, but in a smaller church, elder. Um, but in a smaller church, elder. Um, but in a smaller church, there's sort of what's written like what there's sort of what's written like what there's sort of what's written like what does your constitution or denomination does your constitution or denomination does your constitution or denomination say, but then there is what's practiced say, but then there is what's practiced say, but then there is what's practiced and often what is practiced is not the and often what is practiced is not the and often what is practiced is not the same as what is written. And what you same as what is written. And what you same as what is written. And what you have to get is a clear governance have to get is a clear governance have to get is a clear governance framework. So I knew we kind of let it framework. So I knew we kind of let it framework. So I knew we kind of let it slide until we got to about 4 to 600 and

slide until we got to about 4 to 600 and slide until we got to about 4 to 600 and then I realized ooh no we need clarity then I realized ooh no we need clarity then I realized ooh no we need clarity and we followed the model of staffled and we followed the model of staffled and we followed the model of staffled elder guided people gifted and that was elder guided people gifted and that was elder guided people gifted and that was a vision that I cast to the elders. It a vision that I cast to the elders. It a vision that I cast to the elders. It was part of our uh then association was part of our uh then association was part of our uh then association still our association with North Point still our association with North Point still our association with North Point Church. Uh and that's it staffled elder Church. Uh and that's it staffled elder Church. Uh and that's it staffled elder guided people gifted. Not everybody was guided people gifted. Not everybody was guided people gifted. Not everybody was on board with that at the beginning, but on board with that at the beginning, but on board with that at the beginning, but I said to them, look, if it's staffled, I said to them, look, if it's staffled, I said to them, look, if it's staffled, ultimately me as a lead pastor, I am ultimately me as a lead pastor, I am ultimately me as a lead pastor, I am responsible to you. And you can't reach responsible to you. And you can't reach responsible to you. And you can't reach around me and go fire someone you don't around me and go fire someone you don't around me and go fire someone you don't like. Okay? But if I'm making bad like. Okay? But if I'm making bad like. Okay? But if I'm making bad decisions, if the church isn't decisions, if the church isn't decisions, if the church isn't accomplishing its mission, if I'm making accomplishing its mission, if I'm making accomplishing its mission, if I'm making consistently bad hires, if I'm allowing consistently bad hires, if I'm allowing consistently bad hires, if I'm allowing the church to be financially mismanaged, the church to be financially mismanaged, the church to be financially mismanaged, fire me. Okay? I'm accountable to you, fire me. Okay? I'm accountable to you, fire me. Okay? I'm accountable to you, but I'm going to lead this church. but I'm going to lead this church. but I'm going to lead this church. You're going to guide it. you're going You're going to guide it. you're going You're going to guide it. you're going to keep its mission uh you know within to keep its mission uh you know within to keep its mission uh you know within the guard rails. You're going to guide the guard rails. You're going to guide the guard rails. You're going to guide it. I'm going to lead it. The people's it. I'm going to lead it. The people's it. I'm going to lead it. The people's gifting is going to power it. And we got gifting is going to power it. And we got gifting is going to power it. And we got clarity on that. Now, once you get that clarity on that. Now, once you get that clarity on that. Now, once you get that kind of clarity, all right, what happens kind of clarity, all right, what happens kind of clarity, all right, what happens next? Well, let's say you're a church of next? Well, let's say you're a church of next? Well, let's say you're a church of 500 and he doesn't back off. This is 500 and he doesn't back off. This is 500 and he doesn't back off. This is what you got to do. I'm assuming it's a what you got to do. I'm assuming it's a what you got to do. I'm assuming it's a him. Maybe it's not. You got to have a him. Maybe it's not. You got to have a him. Maybe it's not. You got to have a direct conversation about the lines direct conversation about the lines direct conversation about the lines between board and pastoral between board and pastoral between board and pastoral responsibilities. And if that doesn't responsibilities. And if that doesn't responsibilities. And if that doesn't work, he may have to go. He may have to work, he may have to go. He may have to work, he may have to go. He may have to go. Uh that's tough. You know, when we go. Uh that's tough. You know, when we go. Uh that's tough. You know, when we got really clear about our eldership, got really clear about our eldership, got really clear about our eldership, there were some elders that really there were some elders that really there were some elders that really didn't like that model and we had to didn't like that model and we had to didn't like that model and we had to rotate them off. We had to say, "Thank rotate them off. We had to say, "Thank rotate them off. We had to say, "Thank you for your service. We appreciate all

you for your service. We appreciate all you for your service. We appreciate all that you've done. You're welcome to that you've done. You're welcome to that you've done. You're welcome to attend here. Uh but we're going to move attend here. Uh but we're going to move attend here. Uh but we're going to move in a new direction." So, hope that helps in a new direction." So, hope that helps in a new direction." So, hope that helps with that. Michelle has got the next with that. Michelle has got the next with that. Michelle has got the next question, and she says, "When you're low question, and she says, "When you're low question, and she says, "When you're low on volunteers, which ministries do you on volunteers, which ministries do you on volunteers, which ministries do you focus on?" So Michelle, I'm going to focus on?" So Michelle, I'm going to focus on?" So Michelle, I'm going to flip this on you and I'm going to get to flip this on you and I'm going to get to flip this on you and I'm going to get to a question you didn't ask, but I think a question you didn't ask, but I think a question you didn't ask, but I think it's probably going to help more than it's probably going to help more than it's probably going to help more than you realize. So what I would do is I you realize. So what I would do is I you realize. So what I would do is I wouldn't focus on, okay, we only have wouldn't focus on, okay, we only have wouldn't focus on, okay, we only have this many volunteers, so we're going to this many volunteers, so we're going to this many volunteers, so we're going to shut this down and we're going to do shut this down and we're going to do shut this down and we're going to do this. Maybe you have too many this. Maybe you have too many this. Maybe you have too many ministries, but what you probably have ministries, but what you probably have ministries, but what you probably have is a culture issue. All right? So what is a culture issue. All right? So what is a culture issue. All right? So what you want to do is you want to focus on you want to do is you want to focus on you want to do is you want to focus on your volunteer culture. If you don't your volunteer culture. If you don't your volunteer culture. If you don't have a lot of volunteers, it's probably have a lot of volunteers, it's probably have a lot of volunteers, it's probably because you're not asking for volunteers because you're not asking for volunteers because you're not asking for volunteers in the right way or because you are not in the right way or because you are not in the right way or because you are not caring for volunteers in the right way. caring for volunteers in the right way. caring for volunteers in the right way. I'm not judging you. I'm just saying I'm not judging you. I'm just saying I'm not judging you. I'm just saying seen this pattern a thousand times. I've seen this pattern a thousand times. I've seen this pattern a thousand times. I've fallen prey to it from time to time. But fallen prey to it from time to time. But fallen prey to it from time to time. But here are six reasons that you don't have here are six reasons that you don't have here are six reasons that you don't have the right number of volunteers and you the right number of volunteers and you the right number of volunteers and you are losing high-capacity volunteers.

are losing high-capacity volunteers. are losing high-capacity volunteers. Reason number one, the challenge isn't Reason number one, the challenge isn't Reason number one, the challenge isn't big enough. All right. If you want to big enough. All right. If you want to big enough. All right. If you want to attract really great leaders, volunteer attract really great leaders, volunteer attract really great leaders, volunteer leaders, you got to have a big leaders, you got to have a big leaders, you got to have a big challenge. You got to have a big challenge. You got to have a big challenge. You got to have a big mission. Like we have an empty slot is mission. Like we have an empty slot is mission. Like we have an empty slot is not a mission. Got to have a huge not a mission. Got to have a huge not a mission. Got to have a huge challenge. And if the challenge isn't challenge. And if the challenge isn't challenge. And if the challenge isn't big enough, then you're not going to big enough, then you're not going to big enough, then you're not going to attract high-capacity leaders. Second attract high-capacity leaders. Second attract high-capacity leaders. Second challenge you might be having is that challenge you might be having is that challenge you might be having is that your vision, mission, and strategy are your vision, mission, and strategy are your vision, mission, and strategy are fuzzy. We've kind of hinted at this fuzzy. We've kind of hinted at this fuzzy. We've kind of hinted at this already, but you know what really already, but you know what really already, but you know what really attracts people? A crystal clear attracts people? A crystal clear attracts people? A crystal clear mission. a crystal clear vision and a mission. a crystal clear vision and a mission. a crystal clear vision and a crystal clear strategy. This is what crystal clear strategy. This is what crystal clear strategy. This is what we're called to do. This is what we see. we're called to do. This is what we see. we're called to do. This is what we see. Here's how we're going to get there. You Here's how we're going to get there. You Here's how we're going to get there. You clarify that and the leaders, their ears clarify that and the leaders, their ears clarify that and the leaders, their ears pick up. They go, "Ooh, this is cool. pick up. They go, "Ooh, this is cool. pick up. They go, "Ooh, this is cool. Big challenge. Clarity." Okay. Third Big challenge. Clarity." Okay. Third Big challenge. Clarity." Okay. Third reason. Maybe you've attracted some reason. Maybe you've attracted some reason. Maybe you've attracted some high-capacity leaders, but they quit. high-capacity leaders, but they quit. high-capacity leaders, but they quit. You've got a high attrition rate. Why You've got a high attrition rate. Why You've got a high attrition rate. Why does that happen? Couple of reasons for does that happen? Couple of reasons for does that happen? Couple of reasons for that. And this leads us to the third that. And this leads us to the third that. And this leads us to the third reason. And this is just blunt, but it's reason. And this is just blunt, but it's reason. And this is just blunt, but it's true. Sometimes it's because churches true. Sometimes it's because churches true. Sometimes it's because churches are disorganized, right? If you get a are disorganized, right? If you get a are disorganized, right? If you get a high-capacity leader, they're like, I am high-capacity leader, they're like, I am high-capacity leader, they're like, I am ready to lead small group and you're ready to lead small group and you're ready to lead small group and you're like, great, small group curriculum is like, great, small group curriculum is like, great, small group curriculum is available Sunday at noon. Soon as we're available Sunday at noon. Soon as we're available Sunday at noon. Soon as we're done our services, you know what that done our services, you know what that done our services, you know what that high-capacity leader is doing? Going to high-capacity leader is doing? Going to high-capacity leader is doing? Going to their keyboard, opening the laptop, their keyboard, opening the laptop, their keyboard, opening the laptop, they're looking for it at noon, and they're looking for it at noon, and they're looking for it at noon, and you're like, "Oh, sorry. It was a bad you're like, "Oh, sorry. It was a bad you're like, "Oh, sorry. It was a bad day. Like, we didn't get it out till day. Like, we didn't get it out till day. Like, we didn't get it out till 1:30 or 2." Yeah, but my group meets at 1:30 or 2." Yeah, but my group meets at 1:30 or 2." Yeah, but my group meets at 1:00. Um, a lot of staff are very 1:00. Um, a lot of staff are very 1:00. Um, a lot of staff are very disorganized and they promise things and

disorganized and they promise things and disorganized and they promise things and they don't deliver. And you know what they don't deliver. And you know what they don't deliver. And you know what high-capacity leaders do? They ask you high-capacity leaders do? They ask you high-capacity leaders do? They ask you once or twice like, "Hey, can I get once or twice like, "Hey, can I get once or twice like, "Hey, can I get that? Can I can I help with that?" And that? Can I can I help with that?" And that? Can I can I help with that?" And eventually they just kind of I'm out. eventually they just kind of I'm out. eventually they just kind of I'm out. Thanks. So, if there's any level of Thanks. So, if there's any level of Thanks. So, if there's any level of disorganization, and I've taught this to disorganization, and I've taught this to disorganization, and I've taught this to church leaders, and you see the light church leaders, and you see the light church leaders, and you see the light bulbs go on, um, you probably need to bulbs go on, um, you probably need to bulbs go on, um, you probably need to address that. So, the fourth reason is address that. So, the fourth reason is address that. So, the fourth reason is you let people off the hook too easily. you let people off the hook too easily. you let people off the hook too easily. This is a culture question and uh this This is a culture question and uh this This is a culture question and uh this is a hard one. I could do a whole is a hard one. I could do a whole is a hard one. I could do a whole podcast on this. By the way, if you want podcast on this. By the way, if you want podcast on this. By the way, if you want a whole podcast on this, um just type in a whole podcast on this, um just type in a whole podcast on this, um just type in the comments, I want a whole podcast on the comments, I want a whole podcast on the comments, I want a whole podcast on this. Okay, you let volunteers off the this. Okay, you let volunteers off the this. Okay, you let volunteers off the hook too easily. A volunteer comes in hook too easily. A volunteer comes in hook too easily. A volunteer comes in late and what happens? Uh they will say late and what happens? Uh they will say late and what happens? Uh they will say things like, I'm so sorry I'm late. And things like, I'm so sorry I'm late. And things like, I'm so sorry I'm late. And what does the average leader say? The what does the average leader say? The what does the average leader say? The average leader says that's average leader says that's average leader says that's okay. Never do that. Never do that. okay. Never do that. Never do that. okay. Never do that. Never do that. Right? because what you've done is Right? because what you've done is Right? because what you've done is you've dishonored the time of everybody you've dishonored the time of everybody you've dishonored the time of everybody who showed up on time. So, you really who showed up on time. So, you really who showed up on time. So, you really don't want to do that. Um, and I can don't want to do that. Um, and I can don't want to do that. Um, and I can explain that if you're interested, just explain that if you're interested, just explain that if you're interested, just say, "I want a whole podcast on this."

say, "I want a whole podcast on this." say, "I want a whole podcast on this." But that's just a sub point. You got to But that's just a sub point. You got to But that's just a sub point. You got to hold volunteers accountable the way you hold volunteers accountable the way you hold volunteers accountable the way you would staff. And I know that really rubs would staff. And I know that really rubs would staff. And I know that really rubs people the wrong way. But high-capacity people the wrong way. But high-capacity people the wrong way. But high-capacity leaders, if you're disorganized, you're leaders, if you're disorganized, you're leaders, if you're disorganized, you're letting people off the hook. They're letting people off the hook. They're letting people off the hook. They're going to be like, "Hey, I'm going to be going to be like, "Hey, I'm going to be going to be like, "Hey, I'm going to be nice about this. I think I'm out." Okay. nice about this. I think I'm out." Okay. nice about this. I think I'm out." Okay. The other thing is you don't have enough The other thing is you don't have enough The other thing is you don't have enough other high-capacity leaders around them. other high-capacity leaders around them. other high-capacity leaders around them. You get one high-capacity leader, let's You get one high-capacity leader, let's You get one high-capacity leader, let's say someone who's CEO of a company, the say someone who's CEO of a company, the say someone who's CEO of a company, the mom who's just supercharged in her mom who's just supercharged in her mom who's just supercharged in her neighborhood, whatever. What you want to neighborhood, whatever. What you want to neighborhood, whatever. What you want to do is you want to pair them with another do is you want to pair them with another do is you want to pair them with another high-capacity leader quickly because high-capacity leader quickly because high-capacity leader quickly because people are asking the question, do people are asking the question, do people are asking the question, do people like me do things like this? And people like me do things like this? And people like me do things like this? And if they find other people, there's going if they find other people, there's going if they find other people, there's going to be a synergy there. So, you want to to be a synergy there. So, you want to to be a synergy there. So, you want to go and recruit two or three of them. go and recruit two or three of them. go and recruit two or three of them. That'll really help. So, those are six That'll really help. So, those are six That'll really help. So, those are six reasons why. Maybe I know that's not reasons why. Maybe I know that's not reasons why. Maybe I know that's not exactly the question you asked, but if exactly the question you asked, but if exactly the question you asked, but if you deal with that, you're going to have you deal with that, you're going to have you deal with that, you're going to have so many volunteers, you're not going to so many volunteers, you're not going to so many volunteers, you're not going to know what to do with them. When we made know what to do with them. When we made know what to do with them. When we made those changes, we got to a surplus. I those changes, we got to a surplus. I those changes, we got to a surplus. I remember going to the team saying, "All remember going to the team saying, "All remember going to the team saying, "All right, we're going to do a volunteer right, we're going to do a volunteer right, we're going to do a volunteer drive." They're like, "Yeah, we don't drive." They're like, "Yeah, we don't drive." They're like, "Yeah, we don't need one. We got plenty." Cuz people need one. We got plenty." Cuz people need one. We got plenty." Cuz people don't quit. And it has a way of don't quit. And it has a way of don't quit. And it has a way of attracting people. All right, last attracting people. All right, last attracting people. All right, last question I think we have time for today.

question I think we have time for today. question I think we have time for today. Martin again from the Art of Leadership Martin again from the Art of Leadership Martin again from the Art of Leadership Academy. This is about staffing Academy. This is about staffing Academy. This is about staffing discernment. And he writes, "How do you discernment. And he writes, "How do you discernment. And he writes, "How do you evaluate who to keep and who to let go? evaluate who to keep and who to let go? evaluate who to keep and who to let go? How do you navigate firing?" Well, I did How do you navigate firing?" Well, I did How do you navigate firing?" Well, I did a whole teaching on this on my YouTube a whole teaching on this on my YouTube a whole teaching on this on my YouTube channel um called Stop Tolerating channel um called Stop Tolerating channel um called Stop Tolerating Mediocre Church Staff. And it's all Mediocre Church Staff. And it's all Mediocre Church Staff. And it's all about A players versus B players. So, if about A players versus B players. So, if about A players versus B players. So, if you want to drill down on this um I you want to drill down on this um I you want to drill down on this um I would encourage you to go look at that. would encourage you to go look at that. would encourage you to go look at that. We'll include a link to that in the show We'll include a link to that in the show We'll include a link to that in the show notes. Um, but here's what you're notes. Um, but here's what you're notes. Um, but here's what you're looking for. You're looking for a team looking for. You're looking for a team looking for. You're looking for a team of A players. And how to know who to of A players. And how to know who to of A players. And how to know who to fire and who to keep is you want to look fire and who to keep is you want to look fire and who to keep is you want to look for A players. So, who are A players? for A players. So, who are A players? for A players. So, who are A players? Well, these are people who are self Well, these are people who are self Well, these are people who are self motivated. Okay, they take ownership motivated. Okay, they take ownership motivated. Okay, they take ownership without being asked. They're like I've without being asked. They're like I've without being asked. They're like I've I've trained someone in a skill set. I I've trained someone in a skill set. I I've trained someone in a skill set. I have never effectively trained someone have never effectively trained someone have never effectively trained someone in motivation. You're either motivated in motivation. You're either motivated in motivation. You're either motivated or you're not. You either have to be or you're not. You either have to be or you're not. You either have to be reminded all the time. Hey, work starts reminded all the time. Hey, work starts reminded all the time. Hey, work starts at this hour. Hey, that was due at this hour. Hey, that was due at this hour. Hey, that was due yesterday. Or someone's like, hey, I got yesterday. Or someone's like, hey, I got yesterday. Or someone's like, hey, I got this done early. All right. A players, I this done early. All right. A players, I this done early. All right. A players, I got it done early. You didn't need to got it done early. You didn't need to got it done early. You didn't need to ask me. I got it done. By the way, I saw ask me. I got it done. By the way, I saw ask me. I got it done. By the way, I saw this problem and then I saw this one, this problem and then I saw this one, this problem and then I saw this one, too. So, now it's done. When they come too. So, now it's done. When they come too. So, now it's done. When they come to your office, they don't just come to your office, they don't just come to your office, they don't just come with problems. They come with solutions.

with problems. They come with solutions. with problems. They come with solutions. They're like, "All right, we got a They're like, "All right, we got a They're like, "All right, we got a problem here. Here are three possible problem here. Here are three possible problem here. Here are three possible things we could do to solve it. Um, things we could do to solve it. Um, things we could do to solve it. Um, which one do you suggest we follow? See, which one do you suggest we follow? See, which one do you suggest we follow? See, that's an A player. B player shows up that's an A player. B player shows up that's an A player. B player shows up and goes, I just got problems. Or, oh and goes, I just got problems. Or, oh and goes, I just got problems. Or, oh yeah, I was busy. I got I got I got yeah, I was busy. I got I got I got yeah, I was busy. I got I got I got distracted. Okay, I'll get to that distracted. Okay, I'll get to that distracted. Okay, I'll get to that tomorrow. A players elevate everybody tomorrow. A players elevate everybody tomorrow. A players elevate everybody around them. You know what research around them. You know what research around them. You know what research shows, and they've done a lot of studies shows, and they've done a lot of studies shows, and they've done a lot of studies on this in business schools and Netflix. on this in business schools and Netflix. on this in business schools and Netflix. A lot of this I've I've I've learned A lot of this I've I've I've learned A lot of this I've I've I've learned from Netflix, is a players call out the from Netflix, is a players call out the from Netflix, is a players call out the best in others. When you see a high best in others. When you see a high best in others. When you see a high performer on your team, other people performer on your team, other people performer on your team, other people kind of, you know, say, "Oh, I got that kind of, you know, say, "Oh, I got that kind of, you know, say, "Oh, I got that in me, too. I want to do better." If in me, too. I want to do better." If in me, too. I want to do better." If you're at the gym with somebody who you're at the gym with somebody who you're at the gym with somebody who really knows how to work out, you're really knows how to work out, you're really knows how to work out, you're like, "Yeah, I'm I'm not going to quit like, "Yeah, I'm I'm not going to quit like, "Yeah, I'm I'm not going to quit on this set." Okay. B players can bring on this set." Okay. B players can bring on this set." Okay. B players can bring out the worst. If you have someone who's out the worst. If you have someone who's out the worst. If you have someone who's a little bit lazy or mediocre, other a little bit lazy or mediocre, other a little bit lazy or mediocre, other people go, "Yeah, I don't have to try as people go, "Yeah, I don't have to try as people go, "Yeah, I don't have to try as hard." All right. A leaders are always hard." All right. A leaders are always hard." All right. A leaders are always growing. They're always learning. You growing. They're always learning. You growing. They're always learning. You don't have to motivate them. They're don't have to motivate them. They're don't have to motivate them. They're they're selfarters. They get energized they're selfarters. They get energized they're selfarters. They get energized by obstacles. When they see an obstacle, by obstacles. When they see an obstacle, by obstacles. When they see an obstacle, they're like, "We're gonna figure out they're like, "We're gonna figure out they're like, "We're gonna figure out how to tackle this." They also, here's how to tackle this." They also, here's how to tackle this." They also, here's another clue that you've got an A another clue that you've got an A another clue that you've got an A player. They ask for feedback because player. They ask for feedback because player. They ask for feedback because they are obsessed with getting better.

they are obsessed with getting better. they are obsessed with getting better. I'm not saying I'm an A player, but I I'm not saying I'm an A player, but I I'm not saying I'm an A player, but I remember being in uh the law firm. I remember being in uh the law firm. I remember being in uh the law firm. I worked for in law for a year, and I'm worked for in law for a year, and I'm worked for in law for a year, and I'm like, I didn't know. I'd never worked at like, I didn't know. I'd never worked at like, I didn't know. I'd never worked at a law firm before. So, I walked into my a law firm before. So, I walked into my a law firm before. So, I walked into my boss's office after a month, and I'm boss's office after a month, and I'm boss's office after a month, and I'm like, "Hey, I want a performance review. like, "Hey, I want a performance review. like, "Hey, I want a performance review. What am I doing right? What am I doing What am I doing right? What am I doing What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong?" And uh he's likew weird. I'm wrong?" And uh he's likew weird. I'm wrong?" And uh he's likew weird. I'm like no I want it. I want it. And I look like no I want it. I want it. And I look like no I want it. I want it. And I look for that in employees now. It's like do for that in employees now. It's like do for that in employees now. It's like do you want to know how you're doing? And you want to know how you're doing? And you want to know how you're doing? And they will always ask how can I do they will always ask how can I do they will always ask how can I do better? That's what an A player does. Um better? That's what an A player does. Um better? That's what an A player does. Um and then Netflix talks about the keeper and then Netflix talks about the keeper and then Netflix talks about the keeper test. So if you're really wondering you test. So if you're really wondering you test. So if you're really wondering you know who do I keep, who do I let go? know who do I keep, who do I let go? know who do I keep, who do I let go? Here's the keeper test. Okay. keeper Here's the keeper test. Okay. keeper Here's the keeper test. Okay. keeper test is if somebody told you on your test is if somebody told you on your test is if somebody told you on your team that they're resigning today, how team that they're resigning today, how team that they're resigning today, how hard would you fight to keep them? It's hard would you fight to keep them? It's hard would you fight to keep them? It's a great question. Some some people, a great question. Some some people, a great question. Some some people, let's be honest, you'd be like, "Woo, I let's be honest, you'd be like, "Woo, I let's be honest, you'd be like, "Woo, I don't have to fire you. That's great. don't have to fire you. That's great. don't have to fire you. That's great. Awesome." Some of you'd be like, "Oh, Awesome." Some of you'd be like, "Oh, Awesome." Some of you'd be like, "Oh, that's too bad." And some people, you're that's too bad." And some people, you're that's too bad." And some people, you're like, "I'm not going to sleep tonight. like, "I'm not going to sleep tonight. like, "I'm not going to sleep tonight. Like, I I'm I'm going to need three Like, I I'm I'm going to need three Like, I I'm I'm going to need three people to replace that person." If if people to replace that person." If if people to replace that person." If if you're not gonna sleep tonight and you're not gonna sleep tonight and you're not gonna sleep tonight and you've got three people that you've got you've got three people that you've got you've got three people that you've got to replace this person with, you've got to replace this person with, you've got to replace this person with, you've got an A player. So that's the keeper test.

an A player. So that's the keeper test. an A player. So that's the keeper test. Now, second part of your question was, Now, second part of your question was, Now, second part of your question was, how do you fire? Well, so the good news how do you fire? Well, so the good news how do you fire? Well, so the good news is I actually addressed this in my last is I actually addressed this in my last is I actually addressed this in my last month pick my brain episode, so I won't month pick my brain episode, so I won't month pick my brain episode, so I won't repeat myself. Joey asked the question. repeat myself. Joey asked the question. repeat myself. Joey asked the question. Um, and it's about the difference Um, and it's about the difference Um, and it's about the difference between are you firing for cause, not between are you firing for cause, not between are you firing for cause, not for cause, uh, they should be least for cause, uh, they should be least for cause, uh, they should be least surprised, etc., etc. Uh, all of that is surprised, etc., etc. Uh, all of that is surprised, etc., etc. Uh, all of that is in the last episode of Pick My Brain. in the last episode of Pick My Brain. in the last episode of Pick My Brain. So, uh, I hope that really helps. Now, So, uh, I hope that really helps. Now, So, uh, I hope that really helps. Now, let me just say this, something I didn't let me just say this, something I didn't let me just say this, something I didn't say in the last say in the last say in the last episode. Often, when you're terminating episode. Often, when you're terminating episode. Often, when you're terminating people, um, what you want to do is you people, um, what you want to do is you people, um, what you want to do is you want to be very generous. Okay? Most want to be very generous. Okay? Most want to be very generous. Okay? Most people, you're never going to fire them people, you're never going to fire them people, you're never going to fire them for cause. You're going to have to fire for cause. You're going to have to fire for cause. You're going to have to fire them for what they legally call not for them for what they legally call not for them for what they legally call not for cause. I covered that. But you want to cause. I covered that. But you want to cause. I covered that. But you want to give them a generous severance package. give them a generous severance package. give them a generous severance package. And when you do that, it probably And when you do that, it probably And when you do that, it probably mitigates your likelihood of being sued, mitigates your likelihood of being sued, mitigates your likelihood of being sued, but it also means that they kind of but it also means that they kind of but it also means that they kind of leave live with leave with their leave live with leave with their leave live with leave with their dignity. And about dignity, it's really dignity. And about dignity, it's really dignity. And about dignity, it's really important when you terminate someone important when you terminate someone important when you terminate someone that you don't just read the riot act at that you don't just read the riot act at that you don't just read the riot act at them. I probably did that a little bit them. I probably did that a little bit them. I probably did that a little bit too much at the beginning and here's why too much at the beginning and here's why too much at the beginning and here's why I did, you know, I'm letting you go and I did, you know, I'm letting you go and I did, you know, I'm letting you go and you weren't good at this and you weren't you weren't good at this and you weren't you weren't good at this and you weren't good at that. People remember those good at that. People remember those good at that. People remember those words for the rest of their life. And um words for the rest of their life. And um words for the rest of their life. And um I made some mistakes in that area in the I made some mistakes in that area in the I made some mistakes in that area in the early days. And what I learned over the early days. And what I learned over the early days. And what I learned over the years is you got to let people leave years is you got to let people leave years is you got to let people leave with their dignity. And so you want to with their dignity. And so you want to with their dignity. And so you want to say this isn't really working out. I'm say this isn't really working out. I'm say this isn't really working out. I'm really sorry. We're going to let you go.

really sorry. We're going to let you go. really sorry. We're going to let you go. Going to be generous about this. We want Going to be generous about this. We want Going to be generous about this. We want you to land well. Um unless someone's you to land well. Um unless someone's you to land well. Um unless someone's really toxic, it's like hey, you can be really toxic, it's like hey, you can be really toxic, it's like hey, you can be part of this church. We really love you. part of this church. We really love you. part of this church. We really love you. It's just not going to be in a staff It's just not going to be in a staff It's just not going to be in a staff role. And then when you're announcing it role. And then when you're announcing it role. And then when you're announcing it publicly, say less, not more. I get this publicly, say less, not more. I get this publicly, say less, not more. I get this question quite a bit. People are like, question quite a bit. People are like, question quite a bit. People are like, "Should we announce that we just let "Should we announce that we just let "Should we announce that we just let someone go?" It's like generally someone go?" It's like generally someone go?" It's like generally no, right? If somebody like is in the no, right? If somebody like is in the no, right? If somebody like is in the maintenance department, you don't need maintenance department, you don't need maintenance department, you don't need to announce that. Um if they have a to announce that. Um if they have a to announce that. Um if they have a visible role, like maybe they're a visible role, like maybe they're a visible role, like maybe they're a teaching pastor or the lead pastor, you teaching pastor or the lead pastor, you teaching pastor or the lead pastor, you want to say something. Check with your want to say something. Check with your want to say something. Check with your attorneys. Say less, not more. Um church attorneys. Say less, not more. Um church attorneys. Say less, not more. Um church people can be very gossipy, but you want people can be very gossipy, but you want people can be very gossipy, but you want to let someone leave with their dignity. to let someone leave with their dignity. to let someone leave with their dignity. And the cool thing is if you do this And the cool thing is if you do this And the cool thing is if you do this well for the last well 15 years or so, well for the last well 15 years or so, well for the last well 15 years or so, you know, from time to time we have to you know, from time to time we have to you know, from time to time we have to let people go at our church and other let people go at our church and other let people go at our church and other times people just resign. You know, times people just resign. You know, times people just resign. You know, they're like, "Okay, I'm done my time they're like, "Okay, I'm done my time they're like, "Okay, I'm done my time going into corporate." But what's really going into corporate." But what's really going into corporate." But what's really cool is I can't remember the last time cool is I can't remember the last time cool is I can't remember the last time one of those people left our church.

one of those people left our church. one of those people left our church. They attend. Even if we said, "Hey, this They attend. Even if we said, "Hey, this They attend. Even if we said, "Hey, this isn't working out," they still attend. isn't working out," they still attend. isn't working out," they still attend. That's what happens when you let someone That's what happens when you let someone That's what happens when you let someone leave with their dignity. You treat it leave with their dignity. You treat it leave with their dignity. You treat it with discretion. Okay, so those are with discretion. Okay, so those are with discretion. Okay, so those are today's questions. Let me know in the today's questions. Let me know in the today's questions. Let me know in the comments on Spotify, YouTube, whether comments on Spotify, YouTube, whether comments on Spotify, YouTube, whether you like this format, you like the pick you like this format, you like the pick you like this format, you like the pick your brain. If you do, I'm going to do your brain. If you do, I'm going to do your brain. If you do, I'm going to do it again. Or if you want, send me an it again. Or if you want, send me an it again. Or if you want, send me an email at kerry carry-hoff.com. And hey, email at kerry carry-hoff.com. And hey, email at kerry carry-hoff.com. And hey, if you enjoy this kind of back and if you enjoy this kind of back and if you enjoy this kind of back and forth, you got to check out my premium forth, you got to check out my premium forth, you got to check out my premium private community, the art of leadership private community, the art of leadership private community, the art of leadership academy. When you join, as thousands of academy. When you join, as thousands of academy. When you join, as thousands of pastors have, you get unlimited access pastors have, you get unlimited access pastors have, you get unlimited access to expert guidance, proven strategies, to expert guidance, proven strategies, to expert guidance, proven strategies, and you get a really awesome community and you get a really awesome community and you get a really awesome community of church leaders, some of whom I answer of church leaders, some of whom I answer of church leaders, some of whom I answer their questions here on the podcast. I their questions here on the podcast. I their questions here on the podcast. I answer them pretty much on the daily answer them pretty much on the daily answer them pretty much on the daily inside the academy. You can check it out inside the academy. You can check it out inside the academy. You can check it out at the at the at the arttoofleershipacademy.com or by arttoofleershipacademy.com or by arttoofleershipacademy.com or by clicking the link wherever you're tuning clicking the link wherever you're tuning clicking the link wherever you're tuning in from. Next episode, we have got Chris in from. Next episode, we have got Chris in from. Next episode, we have got Chris Hodgeges. He talks about stuff he has Hodgeges. He talks about stuff he has Hodgeges. He talks about stuff he has never talked about publicly before, never talked about publicly before, never talked about publicly before, leading with an inferiority complex. And leading with an inferiority complex. And leading with an inferiority complex. And he opens up about being bullied, his he opens up about being bullied, his he opens up about being bullied, his insecurity, and how to foster a insecurity, and how to foster a insecurity, and how to foster a successful succession. Chris, I just successful succession. Chris, I just successful succession. Chris, I just love it when leaders you really admire love it when leaders you really admire love it when leaders you really admire and respect. Talk about stuff like that.

and respect. Talk about stuff like that. and respect. Talk about stuff like that. Also coming up, Kyle Idleman, powerful Also coming up, Kyle Idleman, powerful Also coming up, Kyle Idleman, powerful interview, Amy Anderson, Derwin Gray, interview, Amy Anderson, Derwin Gray, interview, Amy Anderson, Derwin Gray, Ashley and Jamie Woolridge, and a whole Ashley and Jamie Woolridge, and a whole Ashley and Jamie Woolridge, and a whole lot more. Thanks for listening and hey, lot more. Thanks for listening and hey, lot more. Thanks for listening and hey, if this episode has been helpful, make if this episode has been helpful, make if this episode has been helpful, make sure you hit follow, leave a review or sure you hit follow, leave a review or sure you hit follow, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening and comment wherever you're listening and comment wherever you're listening and please share it with a friend. We'll please share it with a friend. We'll please share it with a friend. We'll catch you next time on the podcast and I catch you next time on the podcast and I catch you next time on the podcast and I hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.