Solving the Mental Health Emergency: with Shaunti Feldhahn & James Sells

That was one thing that they all said. That was one thing that they all said. Like 100% of them. Which was Like 100% of them. Which was Like 100% of them. Which was Oh my goodness, like the weight that's Oh my goodness, like the weight that's Oh my goodness, like the weight that's off my shoulders because our church is off my shoulders because our church is off my shoulders because our church is actually doing the things that we always actually doing the things that we always actually doing the things that we always had sort of had sort of had sort of hoped and had a vision for the church. hoped and had a vision for the church. hoped and had a vision for the church. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we dive into Podcast. Hey, before we dive into Podcast. Hey, before we dive into today's episode, I'm going to be hanging today's episode, I'm going to be hanging today's episode, I'm going to be hanging out in Nashville and Franklin a lot this out in Nashville and Franklin a lot this out in Nashville and Franklin a lot this fall. I would love your recommendations fall. I would love your recommendations fall. I would love your recommendations on best barbecue [music] place, my on best barbecue [music] place, my on best barbecue [music] place, my favorite. Okay, coffee shops, favorite. Okay, coffee shops, favorite. Okay, coffee shops, restaurants. And the best way to contact restaurants. And the best way to contact restaurants. And the best way to contact me directly is to go on to Instagram. I me directly is to go on to Instagram. I me directly is to go on to Instagram. I actually read the DMs there. So, I'm actually read the DMs there. So, I'm actually read the DMs there. So, I'm Carey Nieuwhof on Instagram. Follow me Carey Nieuwhof on Instagram. Follow me Carey Nieuwhof on Instagram. Follow me there and I'll be sharing some of the there and I'll be sharing some of the there and I'll be sharing some of the the trip this year. I'll be up there for the trip this year. I'll be up there for the trip this year. I'll be up there for about a month shooting a lot of podcasts about a month shooting a lot of podcasts about a month shooting a lot of podcasts [music] and doing a lot of other really [music] and doing a lot of other really [music] and doing a lot of other really exciting things. But exciting things. But exciting things. But for today's episode, we are going to for today's episode, we are going to for today's episode, we are going to talk about the mental health emergency talk about the mental health emergency talk about the mental health emergency that's happening and what your church that's happening and what your church that's happening and what your church can do. A lot of you are very can do. A lot of you are very can do. A lot of you are very overwhelmed and today I've got Shanti overwhelmed and today I've got Shanti overwhelmed and today I've got Shanti Feldhahn and James Sells on the podcast Feldhahn and James Sells on the podcast Feldhahn and James Sells on the podcast [music] talk about a much better [music] talk about a much better [music] talk about a much better approach to pastoral care. I think approach to pastoral care. I think approach to pastoral care. I think you're going to love this episode. So, you're going to love this episode. So, you're going to love this episode. So, wherever you're watching, be sure to wherever you're watching, be sure to wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow and maybe leave a subscribe, follow and maybe leave a subscribe, follow and maybe leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, comment to join the conversation. Now, comment to join the conversation. Now, let's dive into the interview. Shanti, let's dive into the interview. Shanti, let's dive into the interview. Shanti, James, welcome. It's good to have you.

James, welcome. It's good to have you. James, welcome. It's good to have you. So good to be here. Great to be with So good to be here. Great to be with So good to be here. Great to be with you. Yeah, so pastors are carrying a you. Yeah, so pastors are carrying a you. Yeah, so pastors are carrying a weight a lot of people weight a lot of people weight a lot of people don't see. So, from where you two sit, don't see. So, from where you two sit, don't see. So, from where you two sit, what do you see pastors carrying that what do you see pastors carrying that what do you see pastors carrying that most people wouldn't understand or even most people wouldn't understand or even most people wouldn't understand or even notice? notice? notice? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Well, Well, do you mind if I just jump in? do you mind if I just jump in? do you mind if I just jump in? >> Jump in and I'll follow you. >> Jump in and I'll follow you. >> Jump in and I'll follow you. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I I have been talking to pastors for the >> I I have been talking to pastors for the >> I I have been talking to pastors for the last, you know, two and a half years. last, you know, two and a half years. last, you know, two and a half years. Jim has as well and you know, this has Jim has as well and you know, this has Jim has as well and you know, this has been based on a study of more than 2,000 been based on a study of more than 2,000 been based on a study of more than 2,000 pastors to figure out what are they pastors to figure out what are they pastors to figure out what are they carrying? carrying? carrying? And I just don't think the average And I just don't think the average And I just don't think the average parishioner recognizes the weight like parishioner recognizes the weight like parishioner recognizes the weight like of all the different things and so much of all the different things and so much of all the different things and so much emotional stuff that every pastor has to emotional stuff that every pastor has to emotional stuff that every pastor has to juggle. Jeff and I were just speaking at juggle. Jeff and I were just speaking at juggle. Jeff and I were just speaking at a a little church in um a a little church in um a a little church in um Pennsylvania Pennsylvania Pennsylvania and the pastor was like, I just like and the pastor was like, I just like and the pastor was like, I just like every couple of hours we get another every couple of hours we get another every couple of hours we get another phone call in asking for if I can meet phone call in asking for if I can meet phone call in asking for if I can meet with somebody about, you know, about with somebody about, you know, about with somebody about, you know, about their child going off the rails.

their child going off the rails. their child going off the rails. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] No, this you know, just little two, No, this you know, just little two, No, this you know, just little two, three, 400 member churches and you know, three, 400 member churches and you know, three, 400 member churches and you know, the the these are the churches and I the the these are the churches and I the the these are the churches and I just don't think the average person in just don't think the average person in just don't think the average person in the pew recognizes that. the pew recognizes that. the pew recognizes that. You know, what's interesting and Jim, I You know, what's interesting and Jim, I You know, what's interesting and Jim, I want to I want to hear what you say in a want to I want to hear what you say in a want to I want to hear what you say in a minute, but like minute, but like minute, but like you know, I stepped out of lead pastor you know, I stepped out of lead pastor you know, I stepped out of lead pastor role 10 years ago role 10 years ago role 10 years ago and I think about how this works cuz you and I think about how this works cuz you and I think about how this works cuz you know, and now I just do a podcast and know, and now I just do a podcast and know, and now I just do a podcast and you know, run this company, but you know, run this company, but you know, run this company, but there whole inboxes I completely ignore. there whole inboxes I completely ignore. there whole inboxes I completely ignore. If if you email like message me on If if you email like message me on If if you email like message me on Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, I don't know when the last time was I I don't know when the last time was I I don't know when the last time was I checked Facebook messages, LinkedIn, checked Facebook messages, LinkedIn, checked Facebook messages, LinkedIn, I never go there. X, if you're messaging I never go there. X, if you're messaging I never go there. X, if you're messaging like you know, I have a social media like you know, I have a social media like you know, I have a social media team and everything, but I can do that team and everything, but I can do that team and everything, but I can do that right now. right now. right now. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I don't know that I could do that if I >> I don't know that I could do that if I >> I don't know that I could do that if I was a pastor, you know, because was a pastor, you know, because was a pastor, you know, because everywhere you look like I'm I'm active everywhere you look like I'm I'm active everywhere you look like I'm I'm active in my Instagram DMs. That's about it. in my Instagram DMs. That's about it. in my Instagram DMs. That's about it. But otherwise, I just ignore everything. But otherwise, I just ignore everything. But otherwise, I just ignore everything. Pastors don't have that luxury or at Pastors don't have that luxury or at Pastors don't have that luxury or at least they don't seem to have that least they don't seem to have that least they don't seem to have that luxury, do they? Yeah. luxury, do they? Yeah. luxury, do they? Yeah. They do not. I I two pieces come to They do not. I I two pieces come to They do not. I I two pieces come to mind. One is a conversation with a a mind. One is a conversation with a a mind. One is a conversation with a a pastor in California who said, pastor in California who said, pastor in California who said, We have not had a healthy normal family We have not had a healthy normal family We have not had a healthy normal family show up at our church in 20 years.

And and I And and I what he was not saying I what he was not saying I what he was not saying I speaking of a really like people are speaking of a really like people are speaking of a really like people are coming with needs and people are coming coming with needs and people are coming coming with needs and people are coming to the church like he wasn't trying to to the church like he wasn't trying to to the church like he wasn't trying to demean the people that come to his demean the people that come to his demean the people that come to his church, but rather rather to to like church, but rather rather to to like church, but rather rather to to like pummel the myth that says like only nice pummel the myth that says like only nice pummel the myth that says like only nice families show up here. families show up here. families show up here. Uh and that the needless ones come to Uh and that the needless ones come to Uh and that the needless ones come to church. No, he's saying we're church. No, he's saying we're church. No, he's saying we're everybody that comes is hemorrhaging everybody that comes is hemorrhaging everybody that comes is hemorrhaging each in their own unique way. In some each in their own unique way. In some each in their own unique way. In some way. Yeah. Yes, in some way. Yeah. And way. Yeah. Yes, in some way. Yeah. And way. Yeah. Yes, in some way. Yeah. And and then I link it to what Paul said in and then I link it to what Paul said in and then I link it to what Paul said in Corinthians like and above all else, Corinthians like and above all else, Corinthians like and above all else, this is a gross paraphrase, this is a gross paraphrase, this is a gross paraphrase, I carry daily the burden of all the I carry daily the burden of all the I carry daily the burden of all the churches. churches. churches. Mhm. Like like Mhm. Like like Mhm. Like like like the weight that is on on pastor's like the weight that is on on pastor's like the weight that is on on pastor's shoulders kind of dates back all the way shoulders kind of dates back all the way shoulders kind of dates back all the way to the first church and the weight on to the first church and the weight on to the first church and the weight on the first church planter. There's just a the first church planter. There's just a the first church planter. There's just a incredible burden placed on the incredible burden placed on the incredible burden placed on the shoulders of that person to carry a shoulders of that person to carry a shoulders of that person to carry a congregation.

So, you guys have spent a lot of time So, you guys have spent a lot of time with pastors and we're going to do a with pastors and we're going to do a with pastors and we're going to do a deep dive into mental health and the deep dive into mental health and the deep dive into mental health and the crisis that's emerging. Which by the crisis that's emerging. Which by the crisis that's emerging. Which by the way, I was telling you I'm working on a way, I was telling you I'm working on a way, I was telling you I'm working on a book on AI. I think AI is going to make book on AI. I think AI is going to make book on AI. I think AI is going to make the mental health crisis worse, the mental health crisis worse, the mental health crisis worse, significantly worse. significantly worse. significantly worse. Because it personalizes. Like we've only Because it personalizes. Like we've only Because it personalizes. Like we've only been dealing with static images and been dealing with static images and been dealing with static images and videos, but when it's interactive and videos, but when it's interactive and videos, but when it's interactive and you know, number one use of chat GPT in you know, number one use of chat GPT in you know, number one use of chat GPT in 2025 is companionship or therapy, 2025 is companionship or therapy, 2025 is companionship or therapy, I think it's going to it's going to mess I think it's going to it's going to mess I think it's going to it's going to mess with people's heads at a level that we with people's heads at a level that we with people's heads at a level that we haven't seen. And then, you know, the haven't seen. And then, you know, the haven't seen. And then, you know, the average pastor hears that and they're average pastor hears that and they're average pastor hears that and they're like, like, like, all right, I quit. all right, I quit. all right, I quit. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like I can't I can't deal with it right >> Like I can't I can't deal with it right >> Like I can't I can't deal with it right now, let alone if it got worse, right? now, let alone if it got worse, right? now, let alone if it got worse, right? So, what what what are you discovering So, what what what are you discovering So, what what what are you discovering about how churches handle mental health? about how churches handle mental health? about how churches handle mental health? And then I want to get into And then I want to get into And then I want to get into maybe a better model and I'm I'm I was maybe a better model and I'm I'm I was maybe a better model and I'm I'm I was excited about this enough to take on the excited about this enough to take on the excited about this enough to take on the project a little bit with you and write project a little bit with you and write project a little bit with you and write the forward to your book. Yeah. So, this the forward to your book. Yeah. So, this the forward to your book. Yeah. So, this is something, you know, I feel like I is something, you know, I feel like I is something, you know, I feel like I want want want I want the church to benefit from this.

I want the church to benefit from this. I want the church to benefit from this. So, let's just go there. What is the So, let's just go there. What is the So, let's just go there. What is the problem with the mental health crisis as problem with the mental health crisis as problem with the mental health crisis as it stands right now? In a word, I would it stands right now? In a word, I would it stands right now? In a word, I would say when you asked how do pastors manage say when you asked how do pastors manage say when you asked how do pastors manage it, it, it, punt punt punt is is is the most succinct way of saying is is is the most succinct way of saying is is is the most succinct way of saying it. What do you mean by that, Jim? it. What do you mean by that, Jim? it. What do you mean by that, Jim? >> It's it's it's out of our capacity. It >> It's it's it's out of our capacity. It >> It's it's it's out of our capacity. It it it overwhelms uh our church resources it it overwhelms uh our church resources it it overwhelms uh our church resources with complexity. Let's give it to the with complexity. Let's give it to the with complexity. Let's give it to the clinician, the one with a license, the clinician, the one with a license, the clinician, the one with a license, the one with office hours designated to one with office hours designated to one with office hours designated to attend to these things every day. attend to these things every day. attend to these things every day. So, So, So, now without realizing we jettison a now without realizing we jettison a now without realizing we jettison a large portion of ministry large portion of ministry large portion of ministry to to to to to to to go outside the church for care. to go outside the church for care. to go outside the church for care. When we're trying to bring them into the When we're trying to bring them into the When we're trying to bring them into the church for care. church for care. church for care. Without intending to. Without intending to. Without intending to. Right. So, Shanti, what's your take on Right. So, Shanti, what's your take on Right. So, Shanti, what's your take on that? Cuz I think I mean, I did that a that? Cuz I think I mean, I did that a that? Cuz I think I mean, I did that a lot. And my joke was that we kept five lot. And my joke was that we kept five lot. And my joke was that we kept five full-time counselors employed just by full-time counselors employed just by full-time counselors employed just by all the punting all the punting all the punting that we did as as our church grew. And that we did as as our church grew. And that we did as as our church grew. And part of it was I mean, I went to part of it was I mean, I went to part of it was I mean, I went to seminary. I took one class in counseling seminary. I took one class in counseling seminary. I took one class in counseling and I don't have a personality that and I don't have a personality that and I don't have a personality that like, you know, I can sit with a friend, like, you know, I can sit with a friend, like, you know, I can sit with a friend, but if there's a constant sea of people but if there's a constant sea of people but if there's a constant sea of people through my office, through my office, through my office, I'm dead at the end of the day. I got I'm dead at the end of the day. I got I'm dead at the end of the day. I got nothing to give my family. Like I sit nothing to give my family. Like I sit nothing to give my family. Like I sit with my counselor sometimes. I'm like, with my counselor sometimes. I'm like, with my counselor sometimes. I'm like, how do you do this all day? They're how do you do this all day? They're how do you do this all day? They're like, it gives me energy. I'm like, it like, it gives me energy. I'm like, it like, it gives me energy. I'm like, it killed me. I quit. Like it's too much.

killed me. I quit. Like it's too much. killed me. I quit. Like it's too much. So, what what what are you saying, So, what what what are you saying, So, what what what are you saying, Shanti? Shanti? Shanti? One of the most striking things that we One of the most striking things that we One of the most striking things that we saw on the survey cuz we like I said, we saw on the survey cuz we like I said, we saw on the survey cuz we like I said, we ended up doing this research project ended up doing this research project ended up doing this research project with more than 2,000 pastors and church with more than 2,000 pastors and church with more than 2,000 pastors and church leaders. Yeah, not a small sample. Yeah, leaders. Yeah, not a small sample. Yeah, leaders. Yeah, not a small sample. Yeah, it was and we worked really hard to get it was and we worked really hard to get it was and we worked really hard to get a wide stream of the church. a wide stream of the church. a wide stream of the church. >> Yeah, this isn't just like a charismatic >> Yeah, this isn't just like a charismatic >> Yeah, this isn't just like a charismatic or non-denom or mainline. You you you or non-denom or mainline. You you you or non-denom or mainline. You you you did a quote scientific sample. Yeah, we did a quote scientific sample. Yeah, we did a quote scientific sample. Yeah, we we worked really hard to try to get a we worked really hard to try to get a we worked really hard to try to get a really good cross-section and we were really good cross-section and we were really good cross-section and we were basically trying to figure out what do basically trying to figure out what do basically trying to figure out what do people what do the church leaders think people what do the church leaders think people what do the church leaders think about what's going on and what are their about what's going on and what are their about what's going on and what are their needs and perspectives? And one of the needs and perspectives? And one of the needs and perspectives? And one of the big things that we saw was this big things that we saw was this big things that we saw was this contradiction contradiction contradiction where 88% of the pastors either agreed where 88% of the pastors either agreed where 88% of the pastors either agreed or somewhat agreed that their primary or somewhat agreed that their primary or somewhat agreed that their primary job if something is psychological rather job if something is psychological rather job if something is psychological rather than spiritual, which by the way, that's than spiritual, which by the way, that's than spiritual, which by the way, that's a bit of a false distinction, right? But a bit of a false distinction, right? But a bit of a false distinction, right? But >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> but that's the way that a lot of people >> but that's the way that a lot of people >> but that's the way that a lot of people think about it. But 88% said their think about it. But 88% said their think about it. But 88% said their primary mental health job should be to primary mental health job should be to primary mental health job should be to refer to a specialist. Should be to refer to a specialist. Should be to refer to a specialist. Should be to refer out to somebody who's trained for refer out to somebody who's trained for refer out to somebody who's trained for this. And there's nothing wrong with this. And there's nothing wrong with this. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like Jim is a clinical that, right? Like Jim is a clinical that, right? Like Jim is a clinical psychologist. He's been training psychologist. He's been training psychologist. He's been training [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] these folks for years. Um but without these folks for years. Um but without these folks for years. Um but without intending to, we are creating a funnel intending to, we are creating a funnel intending to, we are creating a funnel out of the church.

out of the church. out of the church. And that those same pastors where 88% And that those same pastors where 88% And that those same pastors where 88% said my primary job should be to refer, said my primary job should be to refer, said my primary job should be to refer, maybe talk once or twice, you know, have maybe talk once or twice, you know, have maybe talk once or twice, you know, have a few meetings and then refer. a few meetings and then refer. a few meetings and then refer. 96% 96% 96% of those same pastors said, of those same pastors said, of those same pastors said, but the best way of creating great but the best way of creating great but the best way of creating great mental health in in the church is having mental health in in the church is having mental health in in the church is having a community of believers walking a community of believers walking a community of believers walking alongside one another. So, we're sending alongside one another. So, we're sending alongside one another. So, we're sending them away, but we want them to be part them away, but we want them to be part them away, but we want them to be part of this community. of this community. of this community. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so, that was the >> Exactly. Exactly. And so, that was the >> Exactly. Exactly. And so, that was the biggest thing that I saw is this biggest thing that I saw is this biggest thing that I saw is this contradiction and I think pastors just contradiction and I think pastors just contradiction and I think pastors just don't necessarily realize there is don't necessarily realize there is don't necessarily realize there is another option. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm another option. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm another option. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm caught in that. Like that totally reads caught in that. Like that totally reads caught in that. Like that totally reads my mail. I would have checked the boxes my mail. I would have checked the boxes my mail. I would have checked the boxes in exactly the same way. Like I wouldn't in exactly the same way. Like I wouldn't in exactly the same way. Like I wouldn't even give meeting one or meeting two. even give meeting one or meeting two. even give meeting one or meeting two. It's just like punt and then yeah, you It's just like punt and then yeah, you It's just like punt and then yeah, you should get involved in a small group. should get involved in a small group. should get involved in a small group. You should serve here. So, what You should serve here. So, what You should serve here. So, what [clears throat] are the what are and and [clears throat] are the what are and and [clears throat] are the what are and and and I don't blame anybody for doing and I don't blame anybody for doing and I don't blame anybody for doing that. I did that. And I mean, once in a that. I did that. And I mean, once in a that. I did that. And I mean, once in a while, you know, it's sort of that do while, you know, it's sort of that do while, you know, it's sort of that do for one what you wish you'd do for for one what you wish you'd do for for one what you wish you'd do for everybody. So, there was always someone everybody. So, there was always someone everybody. So, there was always someone and still pretty much is to this day and still pretty much is to this day and still pretty much is to this day someone that I'm journeying with someone that I'm journeying with someone that I'm journeying with personally.

personally. personally. But like I'll do that for one I just But like I'll do that for one I just But like I'll do that for one I just can't do it for everybody, right? And can't do it for everybody, right? And can't do it for everybody, right? And when you lead a big church or even a when you lead a big church or even a when you lead a big church or even a small church, I mean, it doesn't 150 small church, I mean, it doesn't 150 small church, I mean, it doesn't 150 people, you're overwhelmed with mental people, you're overwhelmed with mental people, you're overwhelmed with mental health needs of of your church. So, what health needs of of your church. So, what health needs of of your church. So, what is wrong with that answer? is wrong with that answer? is wrong with that answer? There it is a good answer, but it is There it is a good answer, but it is There it is a good answer, but it is impossible impossible impossible to to to to to to meet the need meet the need meet the need at that level of care, even when you're at that level of care, even when you're at that level of care, even when you're referring to to your Christian clinician referring to to your Christian clinician referring to to your Christian clinician who might might sit in the balcony of who might might sit in the balcony of who might might sit in the balcony of your church every Sunday, uh and be a your church every Sunday, uh and be a your church every Sunday, uh and be a part of the community. part of the community. part of the community. Those folks also are overwhelmed and Those folks also are overwhelmed and Those folks also are overwhelmed and overrun with the mental health need. overrun with the mental health need. overrun with the mental health need. I interacted with a group of clinicians I interacted with a group of clinicians I interacted with a group of clinicians a few years ago, and I said, "Imagine a few years ago, and I said, "Imagine a few years ago, and I said, "Imagine your work if you were responsible for your work if you were responsible for your work if you were responsible for 10,000 people. 10,000 people. 10,000 people. How would you How would you How would you how would you attend to to the needs of how would you attend to to the needs of how would you attend to to the needs of the most crucial, the most crucial, the most crucial, and what would you do with everybody and what would you do with everybody and what would you do with everybody else?

else? else? Because that's about the proportions we Because that's about the proportions we Because that's about the proportions we have of the the folks seeking services have of the the folks seeking services have of the the folks seeking services and the folks available to provide and the folks available to provide and the folks available to provide services. Like, really it's around 1 to services. Like, really it's around 1 to services. Like, really it's around 1 to 10,000. 10,000. 10,000. >> And and that is a problem. So, let's get >> And and that is a problem. So, let's get >> And and that is a problem. So, let's get real. I mean, you're a clinician, Jim. real. I mean, you're a clinician, Jim. real. I mean, you're a clinician, Jim. Every time I said, "Hey, I think you Every time I said, "Hey, I think you Every time I said, "Hey, I think you should go for counseling." Whether it should go for counseling." Whether it should go for counseling." Whether it was a marriage issue, mental health was a marriage issue, mental health was a marriage issue, mental health issue, whatever it was, issue, whatever it was, issue, whatever it was, guess what the number one objection was? guess what the number one objection was? guess what the number one objection was? Don't have any money. Don't have any money. Don't have any money. >> Don't have any money. Don't have any >> Don't have any money. Don't have any >> Don't have any money. Don't have any money. Don't have any money for money. Don't have any money for money. Don't have any money for Everybody has money for everything Everybody has money for everything Everybody has money for everything except what they really need, right? So, except what they really need, right? So, except what they really need, right? So, we set up a fund so that we could fund we set up a fund so that we could fund we set up a fund so that we could fund the first, you know, give a stipend or the first, you know, give a stipend or the first, you know, give a stipend or fund a few sessions or that kind of fund a few sessions or that kind of fund a few sessions or that kind of thing. thing. thing. Even if you do that, what is the Even if you do that, what is the Even if you do that, what is the problem? problem? problem? The problem is that uh the number of The problem is that uh the number of The problem is that uh the number of people utilizing their funds, utilizing people utilizing their funds, utilizing people utilizing their funds, utilizing church funds, utilizing insurance church funds, utilizing insurance church funds, utilizing insurance reimbursements, Right. uh still reimbursements, Right. uh still reimbursements, Right. uh still overwhelms our capacity to provide care overwhelms our capacity to provide care overwhelms our capacity to provide care at the professional level. at the professional level. at the professional level. >> So, it's sort of like the medical >> So, it's sort of like the medical >> So, it's sort of like the medical profession. There's just not enough profession. There's just not enough profession. There's just not enough doctors to go around.

doctors to go around. doctors to go around. >> specialists to go around. Yes. Even if >> specialists to go around. Yes. Even if >> specialists to go around. Yes. Even if you had all the money in the world, you you had all the money in the world, you you had all the money in the world, you can't get in. Right. can't get in. Right. can't get in. Right. >> Long wait lists. Yeah. Actually, can we >> Long wait lists. Yeah. Actually, can we >> Long wait lists. Yeah. Actually, can we share a couple of numbers because share a couple of numbers because share a couple of numbers because sorry, being a data nerd, I can't help sorry, being a data nerd, I can't help sorry, being a data nerd, I can't help it. But like, for example, right now, it. But like, for example, right now, it. But like, for example, right now, according to the the latest government according to the the latest government according to the the latest government statistics, there's almost 60 million statistics, there's almost 60 million statistics, there's almost 60 million people who've been diagnosed with a people who've been diagnosed with a people who've been diagnosed with a mental illness of some kind. Now, In the mental illness of some kind. Now, In the mental illness of some kind. Now, In the US? that doesn't even in in the US, US? that doesn't even in in the US, US? that doesn't even in in the US, adults, I should say. Yeah, adults, I should say. Yeah, adults, I should say. Yeah, >> Not that doesn't even >> Not that doesn't even >> Not that doesn't even include adolescents. It's about 29% It include adolescents. It's about 29% It include adolescents. It's about 29% It is. adults. It's about 29% is. adults. It's about 29% is. adults. It's about 29% or 30% of the population. Yeah. The and or 30% of the population. Yeah. The and or 30% of the population. Yeah. The and that and that is diagnosed mental that and that is diagnosed mental that and that is diagnosed mental illness. That doesn't even include like, illness. That doesn't even include like, illness. That doesn't even include like, I'm just I'm seriously anxious about I'm just I'm seriously anxious about I'm just I'm seriously anxious about flying or I I have a a marriage issue flying or I I have a a marriage issue flying or I I have a a marriage issue that's really you know, a concern. And that's really you know, a concern. And that's really you know, a concern. And so, here and here's the problem. You so, here and here's the problem. You so, here and here's the problem. You have almost 60 million in that bucket. have almost 60 million in that bucket. have almost 60 million in that bucket. Only half of those, 30 million, are Only half of those, 30 million, are Only half of those, 30 million, are getting any kind of help.

getting any kind of help. getting any kind of help. And it's it's there's 30 million people And it's it's there's 30 million people And it's it's there's 30 million people standing outside the clinicians' offices standing outside the clinicians' offices standing outside the clinicians' offices in line. And and many, as you pointed in line. And and many, as you pointed in line. And and many, as you pointed out, they can't afford it anyway. And out, they can't afford it anyway. And out, they can't afford it anyway. And so, it's it's this is an opportunity as so, it's it's this is an opportunity as so, it's it's this is an opportunity as we've been talking to all these pastors, we've been talking to all these pastors, we've been talking to all these pastors, we found there are thousands of churches we found there are thousands of churches we found there are thousands of churches that are already stepping in and saying, that are already stepping in and saying, that are already stepping in and saying, "Maybe we in the church can be part of "Maybe we in the church can be part of "Maybe we in the church can be part of solution here." solution here." solution here." So, my tongue is firmly planted in my So, my tongue is firmly planted in my So, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek when I tell you I have a solution. cheek when I tell you I have a solution. cheek when I tell you I have a solution. It has nothing to do with your project. It has nothing to do with your project. It has nothing to do with your project. ChatGPT, number one use ChatGPT, number one use ChatGPT, number one use >> go. of AI is therapy. That solves it, >> go. of AI is therapy. That solves it, >> go. of AI is therapy. That solves it, right? No, right? No, right? No, break it down. What's what's wrong? What break it down. What's what's wrong? What break it down. What's what's wrong? What are the limits of that? Yeah. They're are the limits of that? Yeah. They're are the limits of that? Yeah. They're not human. not human. not human. Basically, that's it. It's it's it's Basically, that's it. It's it's it's Basically, that's it. It's it's it's it's depersonalized. it's depersonalized. it's depersonalized. And And And um um um it it takes me back to a story of my it it takes me back to a story of my it it takes me back to a story of my childhood when when I asked for a puppy, childhood when when I asked for a puppy, childhood when when I asked for a puppy, and and my parents, I was like three or and and my parents, I was like three or and and my parents, I was like three or four, my parents got me a stuffed four, my parents got me a stuffed four, my parents got me a stuffed animal, animal, animal, uh and I said, I give I uh and I said, I give I uh and I said, I give I it just doesn't do it. I and I told my it just doesn't do it. I and I told my it just doesn't do it. I and I told my mom at age three, "I want a heart that mom at age three, "I want a heart that mom at age three, "I want a heart that beats."

beats." beats." Mhm. Mhm. And Mhm. Mhm. And Mhm. Mhm. And >> So, >> So, >> So, I got my puppy, by the way, the next I got my puppy, by the way, the next I got my puppy, by the way, the next birthday. birthday. birthday. Okay, good good good. Can I Okay, good good good. Can I Okay, good good good. Can I [clears throat] can I can I jump in here [clears throat] can I can I jump in here [clears throat] can I can I jump in here really quickly, Carey, because Jim said really quickly, Carey, because Jim said really quickly, Carey, because Jim said something to me after you had raised something to me after you had raised something to me after you had raised that issue about the AI when we were that issue about the AI when we were that issue about the AI when we were talking about the forward to the book talking about the forward to the book talking about the forward to the book and some of these other things. and some of these other things. and some of these other things. And and I and I asked Jim, this was a And and I and I asked Jim, this was a And and I and I asked Jim, this was a you know, off off the record you know, off off the record you know, off off the record conversation, so I hope Jim Jim doesn't conversation, so I hope Jim Jim doesn't conversation, so I hope Jim Jim doesn't mind me mentioning this. mind me mentioning this. mind me mentioning this. But he actually said something that I But he actually said something that I But he actually said something that I went, "Oh my word. This is one of the went, "Oh my word. This is one of the went, "Oh my word. This is one of the issues with AI. It's not just that it's, issues with AI. It's not just that it's, issues with AI. It's not just that it's, you know, hey, it tells you everything you know, hey, it tells you everything you know, hey, it tells you everything you want to hear and some of the you want to hear and some of the you want to hear and some of the tragedies that is that have come from tragedies that is that have come from tragedies that is that have come from that." that." that." The way the way that you put it, Jim, is The way the way that you put it, Jim, is The way the way that you put it, Jim, is that when I'm talking to a computer, that when I'm talking to a computer, that when I'm talking to a computer, I'm not going to disappoint my computer I'm not going to disappoint my computer I'm not going to disappoint my computer by raising these issues. If I raise by raising these issues. If I raise by raising these issues. If I raise these things with my parents, these things with my parents, these things with my parents, I'm going to disappoint them. If I share I'm going to disappoint them. If I share I'm going to disappoint them. If I share this thing with my spouse, they may this thing with my spouse, they may this thing with my spouse, they may think like I'm a failure.

think like I'm a failure. think like I'm a failure. And ChatGPT isn't going to have its And ChatGPT isn't going to have its And ChatGPT isn't going to have its feelings hurt. And so, there's this feelings hurt. And so, there's this feelings hurt. And so, there's this temptation temptation temptation to go into that as a relationship, and to go into that as a relationship, and to go into that as a relationship, and then then then really, you're obviously you're turning really, you're obviously you're turning really, you're obviously you're turning over your mental health to over your mental health to over your mental health to an entity that doesn't have an entity that doesn't have an entity that doesn't have a heart, as Jim put it. A soul. a heart, as Jim put it. A soul. a heart, as Jim put it. A soul. >> Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have a soul. >> Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have a soul. >> Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have a soul. Uh and there is so much of Uh and there is so much of Uh and there is so much of of of of >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> healing power that comes from just the >> healing power that comes from just the >> healing power that comes from just the real relationship. real relationship. real relationship. Uh and as much as we try to objectify Uh and as much as we try to objectify Uh and as much as we try to objectify the therapeutic process and take the the therapeutic process and take the the therapeutic process and take the personhood out of it and to see this as personhood out of it and to see this as personhood out of it and to see this as client and not take these issues home client and not take these issues home client and not take these issues home with me, with me, with me, like, we are in this because we are good like, we are in this because we are good like, we are in this because we are good carers of others. carers of others. carers of others. Uh and that's our compassion. We want to Uh and that's our compassion. We want to Uh and that's our compassion. We want to be present with people's pain. be present with people's pain. be present with people's pain. And we want to have to actively filter And we want to have to actively filter And we want to have to actively filter that pain out so it doesn't overwhelm that pain out so it doesn't overwhelm that pain out so it doesn't overwhelm us, but we are real people. And and us, but we are real people. And and us, but we are real people. And and anybody that is engaging with me or any anybody that is engaging with me or any anybody that is engaging with me or any therapist is engaging with the blessing therapist is engaging with the blessing therapist is engaging with the blessing of a real person that knows my story.

of a real person that knows my story. of a real person that knows my story. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Compassion. Living this life as a Compassion. Living this life as a Compassion. Living this life as a surrendered believer in Jesus, I get surrendered believer in Jesus, I get surrendered believer in Jesus, I get routinely challenged by what it means to routinely challenged by what it means to routinely challenged by what it means to have compassion for others. You know have compassion for others. You know have compassion for others. You know what? In leadership, your heart kind of what? In leadership, your heart kind of what? In leadership, your heart kind of goes numb. Not to simply have knowledge, goes numb. Not to simply have knowledge, goes numb. Not to simply have knowledge, right? Not just feelings and opinions right? Not just feelings and opinions right? Not just feelings and opinions about the challenging things that you about the challenging things that you about the challenging things that you and I see and experience every day, but and I see and experience every day, but and I see and experience every day, but really to be moved by our faith in really to be moved by our faith in really to be moved by our faith in Christ to a spirit of generous and Christ to a spirit of generous and Christ to a spirit of generous and compassionate living. That for me is a compassionate living. That for me is a compassionate living. That for me is a discipline. And I wonder for you, how discipline. And I wonder for you, how discipline. And I wonder for you, how it's going, right? Do you feel a deep it's going, right? Do you feel a deep it's going, right? Do you feel a deep sense of compassion? Can you imagine sense of compassion? Can you imagine sense of compassion? Can you imagine what might change if you actually did? what might change if you actually did? what might change if you actually did? So, to help with this, I've spent years So, to help with this, I've spent years So, to help with this, I've spent years building strong relationships with building strong relationships with building strong relationships with experts around the world in what it experts around the world in what it experts around the world in what it means to put your faith into action. So, means to put your faith into action. So, means to put your faith into action. So, I have found that when I partner with I have found that when I partner with I have found that when I partner with Compassion, Compassion, Compassion, and I meet the kids that we're actually and I meet the kids that we're actually and I meet the kids that we're actually sponsoring, we have several kids that we sponsoring, we have several kids that we sponsoring, we have several kids that we sponsor in Guatemala, sponsor in Guatemala, sponsor in Guatemala, there's a part of my heart that opens there's a part of my heart that opens there's a part of my heart that opens that otherwise remains closed. It has that otherwise remains closed. It has that otherwise remains closed. It has moved me to a level of compassion that I moved me to a level of compassion that I moved me to a level of compassion that I wouldn't have experienced, even after wouldn't have experienced, even after wouldn't have experienced, even after three decades in leadership. If you want three decades in leadership. If you want three decades in leadership. If you want to learn more, if you want to open your to learn more, if you want to open your to learn more, if you want to open your heart, head on over to heart, head on over to heart, head on over to compassion.com/carey.

compassion.com/carey. compassion.com/carey. That's compassion.com/carey, That's compassion.com/carey, That's compassion.com/carey, and open up your heart this holiday and open up your heart this holiday and open up your heart this holiday season. This episode is brought to you season. This episode is brought to you season. This episode is brought to you by Junction Creative. Great leaders know by Junction Creative. Great leaders know by Junction Creative. Great leaders know communication drives results. So, why communication drives results. So, why communication drives results. So, why settle for a silent agency? Junction settle for a silent agency? Junction settle for a silent agency? Junction Creative believes your agency should Creative believes your agency should Creative believes your agency should move at the speed of your business or move at the speed of your business or move at the speed of your business or organization instead of hiding behind organization instead of hiding behind organization instead of hiding behind ticketing systems and layers of account ticketing systems and layers of account ticketing systems and layers of account managers. So, Junction Creative is a managers. So, Junction Creative is a managers. So, Junction Creative is a full-service marketing partner built for full-service marketing partner built for full-service marketing partner built for small-to-mid-size businesses that want small-to-mid-size businesses that want small-to-mid-size businesses that want results and responsiveness. Their team results and responsiveness. Their team results and responsiveness. Their team works directly with you to develop works directly with you to develop works directly with you to develop strategies that actually drive growth. strategies that actually drive growth. strategies that actually drive growth. No templates, no waiting, just clear No templates, no waiting, just clear No templates, no waiting, just clear communication and measurable outcomes. communication and measurable outcomes. communication and measurable outcomes. So, whether you need a new website, a So, whether you need a new website, a So, whether you need a new website, a fresh brand strategy, or a marketing fresh brand strategy, or a marketing fresh brand strategy, or a marketing campaign that converts with better ROI, campaign that converts with better ROI, campaign that converts with better ROI, Junction Creative connects you with Junction Creative connects you with Junction Creative connects you with experienced marketers who treat your experienced marketers who treat your experienced marketers who treat your business like their own. If you're ready business like their own. If you're ready business like their own. If you're ready for a more hands-on marketing partner, for a more hands-on marketing partner, for a more hands-on marketing partner, visit junctioncreative.com visit junctioncreative.com visit junctioncreative.com to schedule your free consultation.

to schedule your free consultation. to schedule your free consultation. That's junctioncreative.com, That's junctioncreative.com, That's junctioncreative.com, where real partnership delivers real where real partnership delivers real where real partnership delivers real results. Yeah, so I'm not going to results. Yeah, so I'm not going to results. Yeah, so I'm not going to disagree with you, and I think we are on disagree with you, and I think we are on disagree with you, and I think we are on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the tip of the iceberg when it comes to mental health problems created by AI, mental health problems created by AI, mental health problems created by AI, and that's why I'm writing my new book. and that's why I'm writing my new book. and that's why I'm writing my new book. So, but there you know, there's there's So, but there you know, there's there's So, but there you know, there's there's a younger demographic listening. I read a younger demographic listening. I read a younger demographic listening. I read a a a a stat recently. I I can't quote the a stat recently. I I can't quote the a stat recently. I I can't quote the source, but something like, you know, source, but something like, you know, source, but something like, you know, majority of teenagers are using majority of teenagers are using majority of teenagers are using artificial intelligence artificial intelligence artificial intelligence and have created a chatbot, right? Some and have created a chatbot, right? Some and have created a chatbot, right? Some kind of personalized version of whatever kind of personalized version of whatever kind of personalized version of whatever AI they happen to be using. AI they happen to be using. AI they happen to be using. And a significant percentage of them And a significant percentage of them And a significant percentage of them prefer the chatbots' companionship to prefer the chatbots' companionship to prefer the chatbots' companionship to human companionship. Mhm. In other human companionship. Mhm. In other human companionship. Mhm. In other words, I'd rather talk to my chatbot words, I'd rather talk to my chatbot words, I'd rather talk to my chatbot than I would to my mom, to my sister, to than I would to my mom, to my sister, to than I would to my mom, to my sister, to my friend, to my classmate, to my my friend, to my classmate, to my my friend, to my classmate, to my teammate. teammate. teammate. Um just from a psychological standpoint, Um just from a psychological standpoint, Um just from a psychological standpoint, and again, we don't know. We're creating and again, we don't know. We're creating and again, we don't know. We're creating stuff that we don't understand, right? stuff that we don't understand, right? stuff that we don't understand, right? What are some of the where we're sitting What are some of the where we're sitting What are some of the where we're sitting right now, potential problems with that?

right now, potential problems with that? right now, potential problems with that? Um and I want to get back to what we're Um and I want to get back to what we're Um and I want to get back to what we're going to talk about initially, but I I going to talk about initially, but I I going to talk about initially, but I I we have to talk about AI cuz it's we have to talk about AI cuz it's we have to talk about AI cuz it's snowballing, right? Like since the book snowballing, right? Like since the book snowballing, right? Like since the book came out, AI is bigger came out, AI is bigger came out, AI is bigger than it was when you were writing the than it was when you were writing the than it was when you were writing the book. And book. And book. And what's your professional opinion about, what's your professional opinion about, what's your professional opinion about, you know, when when as a culture we you know, when when as a culture we you know, when when as a culture we start to prefer the start to prefer the start to prefer the companionship of a bot over the companionship of a bot over the companionship of a bot over the companionship of a person? companionship of a person? companionship of a person? I I I I don't believe there is I don't believe there is I don't believe there is a a a there is ever a sufficiency there is ever a sufficiency there is ever a sufficiency in anything less than another human in anything less than another human in anything less than another human being being being that will sit that will sit that will sit uh and express the empathic eye contact uh and express the empathic eye contact uh and express the empathic eye contact and the and the the the voice tone and and the and the the the voice tone and and the and the the the voice tone and the breathing and the touch the breathing and the touch the breathing and the touch of one human to another. of one human to another. of one human to another. And that's an irreplaceable entity. And that's an irreplaceable entity. And that's an irreplaceable entity. And you can facsimile it, you can make And you can facsimile it, you can make And you can facsimile it, you can make it feel really close, it feel really close, it feel really close, and and you can make some some wonderful and and you can make some some wonderful and and you can make some some wonderful substitutions, substitutions, substitutions, but you can't replace the real thing.

Shanti, what do you what do you what do Shanti, what do you what do you what do you think? I'm thinking about the you think? I'm thinking about the you think? I'm thinking about the Surgeon General's report a couple years Surgeon General's report a couple years Surgeon General's report a couple years ago. Yeah. ago. Yeah. ago. Yeah. Um where the Surgeon General of the Um where the Surgeon General of the Um where the Surgeon General of the United States basically said loneliness United States basically said loneliness United States basically said loneliness is an epidemic. is an epidemic. is an epidemic. And it is more damaging physically And it is more damaging physically And it is more damaging physically than all these other pretty significant than all these other pretty significant than all these other pretty significant physical maladies like, you know, physical maladies like, you know, physical maladies like, you know, cardiac issues, etc. I mean, I believe, cardiac issues, etc. I mean, I believe, cardiac issues, etc. I mean, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, that the if I'm remembering correctly, that the if I'm remembering correctly, that the quantification was that the impact of quantification was that the impact of quantification was that the impact of loneliness was equivalent on the body of loneliness was equivalent on the body of loneliness was equivalent on the body of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. smoking 15 cigarettes a day. smoking 15 cigarettes a day. >> Yeah, that's a stat. Yeah. And and I >> Yeah, that's a stat. Yeah. And and I >> Yeah, that's a stat. Yeah. And and I don't see how I can see how ChatGPT can don't see how I can see how ChatGPT can don't see how I can see how ChatGPT can be absolutely helpful for certain be absolutely helpful for certain be absolutely helpful for certain things, things, things, but all that's going to happen if you're but all that's going to happen if you're but all that's going to happen if you're getting into that space thinking of that getting into that space thinking of that getting into that space thinking of that that entity as like a therapist or a that entity as like a therapist or a that entity as like a therapist or a friend, friend, friend, you're going to be more lonely in the you're going to be more lonely in the you're going to be more lonely in the end Like social media, right?

end Like social media, right? end Like social media, right? >> because >> because >> because of intimacy, you know? And I'm I'm of intimacy, you know? And I'm I'm of intimacy, you know? And I'm I'm >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm with you. And then this story, and I >> I'm with you. And then this story, and I >> I'm with you. And then this story, and I want to get into some more questions, want to get into some more questions, want to get into some more questions, kind of gets to the model that you're kind of gets to the model that you're kind of gets to the model that you're talking about. I've read the book, I talking about. I've read the book, I talking about. I've read the book, I read to the end, so I know where this is read to the end, so I know where this is read to the end, so I know where this is going, but Thank [laughter] you. You going, but Thank [laughter] you. You going, but Thank [laughter] you. You know, I I just got back from uh 5 days know, I I just got back from uh 5 days know, I I just got back from uh 5 days off the grid in Montana with mostly off the grid in Montana with mostly off the grid in Montana with mostly CEOs. There was one other pastor there. CEOs. There was one other pastor there. CEOs. There was one other pastor there. And I just got invited on this trip by a And I just got invited on this trip by a And I just got invited on this trip by a friend. We were off the grid, it was fly friend. We were off the grid, it was fly friend. We were off the grid, it was fly fishing. It was at Refuge. They do a fishing. It was at Refuge. They do a fishing. It was at Refuge. They do a great job of what they're doing. great job of what they're doing. great job of what they're doing. And we're sitting around dinner, big And we're sitting around dinner, big And we're sitting around dinner, big huge table, 20 guys. It was all guys on huge table, 20 guys. It was all guys on huge table, 20 guys. It was all guys on this trip, it was a guys trip. this trip, it was a guys trip. this trip, it was a guys trip. And I really got like And I really got like And I really got like convicted of something. Then it it's convicted of something. Then it it's convicted of something. Then it it's it's it's irrelevant what it is right it's it's irrelevant what it is right it's it's irrelevant what it is right now, but it was like that was my big now, but it was like that was my big now, but it was like that was my big moment on the trip where I felt like God moment on the trip where I felt like God moment on the trip where I felt like God was doing something, and it was very was doing something, and it was very was doing something, and it was very emotional for me. emotional for me. emotional for me. And I, you know, kind of kind of talked And I, you know, kind of kind of talked And I, you know, kind of kind of talked in a broken voice with tears in my eyes. in a broken voice with tears in my eyes. in a broken voice with tears in my eyes. I didn't even look up, right? Cuz I'm I didn't even look up, right? Cuz I'm I didn't even look up, right? Cuz I'm like, oh gosh, here I go, I'm crying, like, oh gosh, here I go, I'm crying, like, oh gosh, here I go, I'm crying, and I don't do that very often, and I don't do that very often, and I don't do that very often, particularly in public.

particularly in public. particularly in public. Um Um Um And when I looked up, ev- exactly what And when I looked up, ev- exactly what And when I looked up, ev- exactly what you're saying, Jim, every single eye you're saying, Jim, every single eye you're saying, Jim, every single eye on that table, people were like craning on that table, people were like craning on that table, people were like craning around other people around other people around other people to break contact, and I texted the group to break contact, and I texted the group to break contact, and I texted the group this morning this morning this morning just to say, I will I that image of just to say, I will I that image of just to say, I will I that image of everyone listening intently, everyone listening intently, everyone listening intently, hugs, you know, conversations after, hugs, you know, conversations after, hugs, you know, conversations after, that will be seared in my mind for that will be seared in my mind for that will be seared in my mind for years. And I use AI every day. That's years. And I use AI every day. That's years. And I use AI every day. That's nothing that any chatbot I I I could nothing that any chatbot I I I could nothing that any chatbot I I I could create could give me. So, I'm sold on create could give me. So, I'm sold on create could give me. So, I'm sold on that. that. that. But it goes back to the original But it goes back to the original But it goes back to the original problem, which is here we have it. problem, which is here we have it. problem, which is here we have it. You're either, you know, vast majority You're either, you know, vast majority You're either, you know, vast majority of churches, 85% less than 200 people. of churches, 85% less than 200 people. of churches, 85% less than 200 people. So, the pastor's trying to take this on So, the pastor's trying to take this on So, the pastor's trying to take this on while preaching for Sunday and reaching while preaching for Sunday and reaching while preaching for Sunday and reaching new people and all this stuff. new people and all this stuff. new people and all this stuff. They get overwhelmed. Or we punt. I love They get overwhelmed. Or we punt. I love They get overwhelmed. Or we punt. I love that phrase. It's just like, that phrase. It's just like, that phrase. It's just like, here's a list of qualified counselors, here's a list of qualified counselors, here's a list of qualified counselors, and here's a bursary to get you started and here's a bursary to get you started and here's a bursary to get you started or whatever. or whatever. or whatever. That's not enough. So, what what is the That's not enough. So, what what is the That's not enough. So, what what is the alternative? Like, where do you go when alternative? Like, where do you go when alternative? Like, where do you go when you're overwhelmed? And let's assume you're overwhelmed? And let's assume you're overwhelmed? And let's assume that this gets worse cuz I think it's that this gets worse cuz I think it's that this gets worse cuz I think it's going to get worse.

Shanti, share the the story that you Shanti, share the the story that you created with that pastor. created with that pastor. created with that pastor. Yeah. Like that like that that Yeah. Like that like that that Yeah. Like that like that that alternative path story. That fits alternative path story. That fits alternative path story. That fits perfect to to Carey's question. perfect to to Carey's question. perfect to to Carey's question. So, So, So, Jeff and I there's a church that we're Jeff and I there's a church that we're Jeff and I there's a church that we're going to be doing a marriage conference going to be doing a marriage conference going to be doing a marriage conference at in the Midwest um at in the Midwest um at in the Midwest um in a few months. in a few months. in a few months. >> Sorry, my husband. Jeff and I do a lot >> Sorry, my husband. Jeff and I do a lot >> Sorry, my husband. Jeff and I do a lot of But just of But just of But just >> his name is Jim. Okay. >> his name is Jim. Okay. >> his name is Jim. Okay. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Jeff, your husband. Okay, got it. Jeff, >> Jeff, your husband. Okay, got it. Jeff, >> Jeff, your husband. Okay, got it. Jeff, my husband. my husband. my husband. And uh and we I was on the phone with And uh and we I was on the phone with And uh and we I was on the phone with the senior pastor. It's a fairly large the senior pastor. It's a fairly large the senior pastor. It's a fairly large church, probably 1,500 2,000 people. church, probably 1,500 2,000 people. church, probably 1,500 2,000 people. And we were talking about this project And we were talking about this project And we were talking about this project um about the release of the book and and um about the release of the book and and um about the release of the book and and all of that, and he he just you could all of that, and he he just you could all of that, and he he just you could tell like his shoulders slumped a little tell like his shoulders slumped a little tell like his shoulders slumped a little bit, bit, bit, and he he basically said, it's just He and he he basically said, it's just He and he he basically said, it's just He said, it's so hard to know what to do. said, it's so hard to know what to do. said, it's so hard to know what to do. He said, you know, this was a Monday. He He said, you know, this was a Monday. He He said, you know, this was a Monday. He said, for example, yesterday after I said, for example, yesterday after I said, for example, yesterday after I after I preached, he said, there was a a after I preached, he said, there was a a after I preached, he said, there was a a woman who came up to me in the lobby woman who came up to me in the lobby woman who came up to me in the lobby with tears in her eyes and said, Pastor, with tears in her eyes and said, Pastor, with tears in her eyes and said, Pastor, I have to I have to I have to I have Can I Can I get on your schedule?

I have Can I Can I get on your schedule? I have Can I Can I get on your schedule? I have to come talk to you. I was I have to come talk to you. I was I have to come talk to you. I was sexually abused as a child, and it's sexually abused as a child, and it's sexually abused as a child, and it's just impacting everything in my life, just impacting everything in my life, just impacting everything in my life, and I just I need to speak with you. and I just I need to speak with you. and I just I need to speak with you. And he said, of course, you know, here's And he said, of course, you know, here's And he said, of course, you know, here's my assistant's number, we'll get you on my assistant's number, we'll get you on my assistant's number, we'll get you on the list. And he told me, he said, the list. And he told me, he said, the list. And he told me, he said, however, I'm thinking to myself, oh my however, I'm thinking to myself, oh my however, I'm thinking to myself, oh my word, I'm not a specialist in sexual word, I'm not a specialist in sexual word, I'm not a specialist in sexual abuse. Like I I know I'm going to, you abuse. Like I I know I'm going to, you abuse. Like I I know I'm going to, you know, listen to her, meet with her once know, listen to her, meet with her once know, listen to her, meet with her once or twice, and then refer her to a or twice, and then refer her to a or twice, and then refer her to a specialist. He said, I'm not I'm not specialist. He said, I'm not I'm not specialist. He said, I'm not I'm not trained in that. 100% And exactly. And trained in that. 100% And exactly. And trained in that. 100% And exactly. And And I said, you know, let me give you a And I said, you know, let me give you a And I said, you know, let me give you a slightly different vision. slightly different vision. slightly different vision. Like, imagine that you could have said Like, imagine that you could have said Like, imagine that you could have said something just slightly differently. something just slightly differently. something just slightly differently. I said, imagine that when she would have I said, imagine that when she would have I said, imagine that when she would have come up to you, you would have been able come up to you, you would have been able come up to you, you would have been able to say, to say, to say, I'm so sorry that that happened. I'm so I'm so sorry that that happened. I'm so I'm so sorry that that happened. I'm so sorry that that has been your story. And sorry that that has been your story. And sorry that that has been your story. And of course, you know, we'll we'll of course, you know, we'll we'll of course, you know, we'll we'll absolutely try to get you in. It may be absolutely try to get you in. It may be absolutely try to get you in. It may be a few weeks because, you know, the a few weeks because, you know, the a few weeks because, you know, the schedule is already full, but in the schedule is already full, but in the schedule is already full, but in the meantime, I'm going to have Bonnie call meantime, I'm going to have Bonnie call meantime, I'm going to have Bonnie call you.

you. you. Bonnie is our care coordinator, and she Bonnie is our care coordinator, and she Bonnie is our care coordinator, and she runs a group of people who are just lay runs a group of people who are just lay runs a group of people who are just lay listeners, and they walk alongside those listeners, and they walk alongside those listeners, and they walk alongside those with pain and come alongside people and with pain and come alongside people and with pain and come alongside people and when they're in times of need, and I when they're in times of need, and I when they're in times of need, and I happen to know that one of those lay happen to know that one of those lay happen to know that one of those lay listeners is a woman named Maria who had listeners is a woman named Maria who had listeners is a woman named Maria who had that same story that same story that same story in her background, and she loves coming in her background, and she loves coming in her background, and she loves coming alongside other women who are walking alongside other women who are walking alongside other women who are walking through that. And so, we're going to through that. And so, we're going to through that. And so, we're going to have Bonnie call you um within the next have Bonnie call you um within the next have Bonnie call you um within the next 24 hours, and she's going to hear your 24 hours, and she's going to hear your 24 hours, and she's going to hear your story, and we'll get you funneled to the story, and we'll get you funneled to the story, and we'll get you funneled to the right person. right person. right person. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And you could tell the it was visibly we >> And you could tell the it was visibly we >> And you could tell the it was visibly we were on Zoom, were on Zoom, were on Zoom, and it was almost like you could visibly and it was almost like you could visibly and it was almost like you could visibly see see see a weight lift off of this pastor's a weight lift off of this pastor's a weight lift off of this pastor's shoulders. It was like this concept shoulders. It was like this concept shoulders. It was like this concept wasn't something that they had, you wasn't something that they had, you wasn't something that they had, you know, really thought of as a thing know, really thought of as a thing know, really thought of as a thing before. And yet it can be, and this is before. And yet it can be, and this is before. And yet it can be, and this is what thousands of churches around the what thousands of churches around the what thousands of churches around the country really are putting in place, country really are putting in place, country really are putting in place, which is how do we raise up lay which is how do we raise up lay which is how do we raise up lay listeners to come alongside the more listeners to come alongside the more listeners to come alongside the more basic needs or even come alongside some basic needs or even come alongside some basic needs or even come alongside some of the serious ones that are referred of the serious ones that are referred of the serious ones that are referred out, right? Like, that person may be out, right? Like, that person may be out, right? Like, that person may be referred out, but they also need to be referred out, but they also need to be referred out, but they also need to be cared for within the church.

cared for within the church. cared for within the church. Can you explain lay listeners? What What Can you explain lay listeners? What What Can you explain lay listeners? What What do you mean by that? Yeah. That is do you mean by that? Yeah. That is do you mean by that? Yeah. That is someone someone someone who is not trained as a professional who is not trained as a professional who is not trained as a professional clinician clinician clinician uh uh uh and not even trained in Let me let me and not even trained in Let me let me and not even trained in Let me let me take a step back and say, we've created take a step back and say, we've created take a step back and say, we've created a what we call the triangle model. a what we call the triangle model. a what we call the triangle model. Consider the top 5 to 8% of those with Consider the top 5 to 8% of those with Consider the top 5 to 8% of those with serious mental health issues, serious mental health issues, serious mental health issues, schizophrenia, bipolar disease. schizophrenia, bipolar disease. schizophrenia, bipolar disease. The middle The middle The middle >> triangle. >> triangle. >> triangle. >> top of the triangle, the very peak, the >> top of the triangle, the very peak, the >> top of the triangle, the very peak, the apex. The middle part of the triangle, apex. The middle part of the triangle, apex. The middle part of the triangle, about 30% are people who are in various about 30% are people who are in various about 30% are people who are in various states of mental health recovery. Maybe states of mental health recovery. Maybe states of mental health recovery. Maybe they're on antidepressants, they're they're on antidepressants, they're they're on antidepressants, they're continuing to see a clinician, maybe continuing to see a clinician, maybe continuing to see a clinician, maybe they have a history of addiction and they have a history of addiction and they have a history of addiction and they are going to their Celebrate they are going to their Celebrate they are going to their Celebrate Recovery or Regeneration or AA meetings. Recovery or Regeneration or AA meetings. Recovery or Regeneration or AA meetings. They've been sober sober for 3 years. They've been sober sober for 3 years. They've been sober sober for 3 years. Like, they have ongoing care, they're Like, they have ongoing care, they're Like, they have ongoing care, they're managing their lives with with a lot of managing their lives with with a lot of managing their lives with with a lot of buttressing, with some supports to keep buttressing, with some supports to keep buttressing, with some supports to keep them well. And then there's the bottom them well. And then there's the bottom them well. And then there's the bottom of the triangle, like 60 to 70% of the of the triangle, like 60 to 70% of the of the triangle, like 60 to 70% of the population population population of people who know pain.

of people who know pain. of people who know pain. Like, nobody gets a pass there. Like, nobody gets a pass there. Like, nobody gets a pass there. Everybody knows suffering to some Everybody knows suffering to some Everybody knows suffering to some degree. degree. degree. >> a relative or sexual abuse or >> a relative or sexual abuse or >> a relative or sexual abuse or >> uh yeah. Could be uh >> uh yeah. Could be uh >> uh yeah. Could be uh deficient parenting from childhood. It deficient parenting from childhood. It deficient parenting from childhood. It could be we lost a job. It could be uh could be we lost a job. It could be uh could be we lost a job. It could be uh my life did not work out as I planned. I my life did not work out as I planned. I my life did not work out as I planned. I am single and 45. That was I am single and 45. That was I am single and 45. That was I I host of course or I'm married and 45, I host of course or I'm married and 45, I host of course or I'm married and 45, and my marriage has not worked the way I and my marriage has not worked the way I and my marriage has not worked the way I planned. So, like a host Nobody Nobody planned. So, like a host Nobody Nobody planned. So, like a host Nobody Nobody gets a a skip there. We all know pain. gets a a skip there. We all know pain. gets a a skip there. We all know pain. >> Mhm. And to think then >> Mhm. And to think then >> Mhm. And to think then the the clinician really is trained for the the clinician really is trained for the the clinician really is trained for the top part of the triangle the top part of the triangle the top part of the triangle and and and parts of that middle. parts of that middle. parts of that middle. Uh and there are other folks who are are Uh and there are other folks who are are Uh and there are other folks who are are not clinicians, but are deeply trained not clinicians, but are deeply trained not clinicians, but are deeply trained like a Stephen's ministry who has a year like a Stephen's ministry who has a year like a Stephen's ministry who has a year of preparation. They're good. of preparation. They're good. of preparation. They're good. And someone who oversees the Celebrate And someone who oversees the Celebrate And someone who oversees the Celebrate Recovery ministry, that person is is Recovery ministry, that person is is Recovery ministry, that person is is well equipped to a deal to deal with well equipped to a deal to deal with well equipped to a deal to deal with addictions that come active and and addictions that come active and and addictions that come active and and dormant addictions. If you could borrow dormant addictions. If you could borrow dormant addictions. If you could borrow a probably a probably a probably >> a specialization, right?

>> a specialization, right? >> a specialization, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, we know what to do with this >> Yeah. Yeah, we know what to do with this >> Yeah. Yeah, we know what to do with this group of people. group of people. group of people. And then there is the masses underneath. And then there is the masses underneath. And then there is the masses underneath. Like everybody that goes to church that Like everybody that goes to church that Like everybody that goes to church that interacts with other people. If you work interacts with other people. If you work interacts with other people. If you work in in ministry with children. If you are in in ministry with children. If you are in in ministry with children. If you are a greeter at the front door of your a greeter at the front door of your a greeter at the front door of your church and you extend your hand and say church and you extend your hand and say church and you extend your hand and say welcome. welcome. welcome. If you hand out cups of coffee before If you hand out cups of coffee before If you hand out cups of coffee before the church service. the church service. the church service. If you just hang out and direct which If you just hang out and direct which If you just hang out and direct which way the people go for their Sunday way the people go for their Sunday way the people go for their Sunday school class or for the sanctuary school class or for the sanctuary school class or for the sanctuary worship service. Like if you interact worship service. Like if you interact worship service. Like if you interact with people. with people. with people. Leading a small group. You are a lay Leading a small group. You are a lay Leading a small group. You are a lay caregiver. You are a lay listener. You caregiver. You are a lay listener. You caregiver. You are a lay listener. You are in that capacity of leadership in are in that capacity of leadership in are in that capacity of leadership in ministry that says ministry that says ministry that says I'm capable of listening to you and in I'm capable of listening to you and in I'm capable of listening to you and in addressing your pain. I know I'm I am a addressing your pain. I know I'm I am a addressing your pain. I know I'm I am a mature believer mature believer mature believer and I'm a discipler either active or and I'm a discipler either active or and I'm a discipler either active or non-formal. non-formal. non-formal. A discipler of of people within this A discipler of of people within this A discipler of of people within this church community.

church community. church community. Uh and and I carry like the Uh and and I carry like the Uh and and I carry like the non-commissioned officer ranking of a non-commissioned officer ranking of a non-commissioned officer ranking of a really really big army. really really big army. really really big army. Okay, so let's break that down a little Okay, so let's break that down a little Okay, so let's break that down a little bit with the lay listener cuz I totally bit with the lay listener cuz I totally bit with the lay listener cuz I totally understand I guess at the top of the understand I guess at the top of the understand I guess at the top of the triangle that's where your trained triangle that's where your trained triangle that's where your trained psychologist clinicians psychologist clinicians psychologist clinicians come in for somebody with you know come in for somebody with you know come in for somebody with you know personality disorders or bipolar or personality disorders or bipolar or personality disorders or bipolar or whatever. And then you've got whatever. And then you've got whatever. And then you've got specialized people who are like yeah, specialized people who are like yeah, specialized people who are like yeah, yeah, you know what I've I was trained yeah, you know what I've I was trained yeah, you know what I've I was trained in AA or Celebrate Recovery or you know, in AA or Celebrate Recovery or you know, in AA or Celebrate Recovery or you know, I have I have some experience with that. I have I have some experience with that. I have I have some experience with that. Divorce care, Divorce care, Divorce care, reboot. There there's an abundance of reboot. There there's an abundance of reboot. There there's an abundance of great ministries out there. So they've great ministries out there. So they've great ministries out there. So they've got some training with that and then and got some training with that and then and got some training with that and then and then you've got like you know, hey my then you've got like you know, hey my then you've got like you know, hey my life isn't working out or our marriage life isn't working out or our marriage life isn't working out or our marriage is tough or you know, I don't want to is tough or you know, I don't want to is tough or you know, I don't want to call them garden variety issues, but the call them garden variety issues, but the call them garden variety issues, but the stuff that everybody stuff that everybody stuff that everybody >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> struggles with at one point or another. >> struggles with at one point or another. >> struggles with at one point or another. And you mentioned like you know, you And you mentioned like you know, you And you mentioned like you know, you need a lay listener. So how much need a lay listener. So how much need a lay listener. So how much training does a lay listener get? Like training does a lay listener get? Like training does a lay listener get? Like how does that work? In our program uh how does that work? In our program uh how does that work? In our program uh 6 hours.

6 hours. 6 hours. 6 hours of training. 6 hours of training. 6 hours of training. >> 6 hours of training. And then ongoing >> 6 hours of training. And then ongoing >> 6 hours of training. And then ongoing conversations. Yes. conversations. Yes. conversations. Yes. And and we want this to be a low self. And and we want this to be a low self. And and we want this to be a low self. Anybody can reach it. And in 6 hours we Anybody can reach it. And in 6 hours we Anybody can reach it. And in 6 hours we believe we can teach someone the basic believe we can teach someone the basic believe we can teach someone the basic skills of listening. skills of listening. skills of listening. Teach someone how to pray with another. Teach someone how to pray with another. Teach someone how to pray with another. Not pray for another, but to engage with Not pray for another, but to engage with Not pray for another, but to engage with another in another in another in around their pain around their pain around their pain and conversations with God. and conversations with God. and conversations with God. And a very basic problem-solving And a very basic problem-solving And a very basic problem-solving strategy in which we can say, let's set strategy in which we can say, let's set strategy in which we can say, let's set a goal for next week and then let's get a goal for next week and then let's get a goal for next week and then let's get together again and talk and pray. together again and talk and pray. together again and talk and pray. Okay. Okay. Okay. So is is that like just just to get a So is is that like just just to get a So is is that like just just to get a really clear picture of it? really clear picture of it? really clear picture of it? Is that like Is that like Is that like counseling 101? Is it more of a counseling 101? Is it more of a counseling 101? Is it more of a listening thing? Are you trying to solve listening thing? Are you trying to solve listening thing? Are you trying to solve the problem? Are you just coming the problem? Are you just coming the problem? Are you just coming alongside? Like what happens? We are alongside? Like what happens? We are alongside? Like what happens? We are coming alongside. We are being present coming alongside. We are being present coming alongside. We are being present with. with. with. This uh to share a story of one of our This uh to share a story of one of our This uh to share a story of one of our colleagues uh Jen Ripley who is the colleagues uh Jen Ripley who is the colleagues uh Jen Ripley who is the co-director of the the Institute at co-director of the the Institute at co-director of the the Institute at Regent where where I work and oversees Regent where where I work and oversees Regent where where I work and oversees the the Church Cares project with me.

the the Church Cares project with me. the the Church Cares project with me. Um a psychology professor. Um a psychology professor. Um a psychology professor. She uh she was carrying a deep burden uh She uh she was carrying a deep burden uh She uh she was carrying a deep burden uh one Sunday in her church. She sat in the one Sunday in her church. She sat in the one Sunday in her church. She sat in the balcony so she wouldn't be noticed. balcony so she wouldn't be noticed. balcony so she wouldn't be noticed. And was just in a didn't want to talk to And was just in a didn't want to talk to And was just in a didn't want to talk to anybody. Here's a she's a psychologist. anybody. Here's a she's a psychologist. anybody. Here's a she's a psychologist. Uh didn't want to talk to anybody, but Uh didn't want to talk to anybody, but Uh didn't want to talk to anybody, but she was she was she was she was she was she was deeply stressed deeply stressed deeply stressed over something that was going on in her over something that was going on in her over something that was going on in her family. family. family. A woman named Kelly A woman named Kelly A woman named Kelly was in the balcony, too. was in the balcony, too. was in the balcony, too. Kelly and Jen were not friends. They Kelly and Jen were not friends. They Kelly and Jen were not friends. They were acquaintances. were acquaintances. were acquaintances. Kelly after the service Kelly after the service Kelly after the service uh moved over to where Jen was sitting uh moved over to where Jen was sitting uh moved over to where Jen was sitting and said and said and said you look distressed. you look distressed. you look distressed. You want to talk? That was it. That was it. >> Yeah. That's your job as a lay listener. >> Yeah. That's your job as a lay listener. >> Yeah. That's your job as a lay listener. Like to be able to be present with Like to be able to be present with Like to be able to be present with someone in pain. I'm not a counselor. someone in pain. I'm not a counselor. someone in pain. I'm not a counselor. I'm not a problem solver, I'm not a problem solver, I'm not a problem solver, but I can walk with you.

but I can walk with you. but I can walk with you. So I have a a theory that I've used over So I have a a theory that I've used over So I have a a theory that I've used over the years and have taught it to church the years and have taught it to church the years and have taught it to church leaders, but I developed it when I was a leaders, but I developed it when I was a leaders, but I developed it when I was a pastor and particularly when we hit the pastor and particularly when we hit the pastor and particularly when we hit the 200 barrier and I realized thanks to 200 barrier and I realized thanks to 200 barrier and I realized thanks to Warren Bird and Carl George that the Warren Bird and Carl George that the Warren Bird and Carl George that the number one issue is pastoral care. It number one issue is pastoral care. It number one issue is pastoral care. It just doesn't scale. Like one just doesn't scale. Like one just doesn't scale. Like one person cannot person cannot person cannot care for 200, 300 people not care for 200, 300 people not care for 200, 300 people not sustainably. And one of two things sustainably. And one of two things sustainably. And one of two things happens. The church happens. The church happens. The church shrinks back down to a manageable level shrinks back down to a manageable level shrinks back down to a manageable level 100, 150 or the pastor burns out and the 100, 150 or the pastor burns out and the 100, 150 or the pastor burns out and the next person takes over, grows it back to next person takes over, grows it back to next person takes over, grows it back to 200, burns out, etc. It's just the 200, burns out, etc. It's just the 200, burns out, etc. It's just the cycle, right? So I realized pastoral cycle, right? So I realized pastoral cycle, right? So I realized pastoral care had to change and we we care had to change and we we care had to change and we we experimented with different models, but experimented with different models, but experimented with different models, but what what I ended up at is 98% of what what I ended up at is 98% of what what I ended up at is 98% of pastoral care is having someone who pastoral care is having someone who pastoral care is having someone who cares. It doesn't have to be the pastor. cares. It doesn't have to be the pastor. cares. It doesn't have to be the pastor. And it sounds like what you're sharing And it sounds like what you're sharing And it sounds like what you're sharing is a version of that. is a version of that. is a version of that. >> That is a version of that. Yes. Yeah. >> That is a version of that. Yes. Yeah. >> That is a version of that. Yes. Yeah. >> I want to duplicate you. If you're the >> I want to duplicate you. If you're the >> I want to duplicate you. If you're the pastor of of pastor of of pastor of of >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> First Church in in any small, medium, or >> First Church in in any small, medium, or >> First Church in in any small, medium, or large urban setting.

large urban setting. large urban setting. Want to dip duplicate you Want to dip duplicate you Want to dip duplicate you a thousand times. a thousand times. a thousand times. Got you. Got you. Got you. >> And and and magnify your capacity to sit >> And and and magnify your capacity to sit >> And and and magnify your capacity to sit with the power of the gospel with with the power of the gospel with with the power of the gospel with another person. This episode is brought another person. This episode is brought another person. This episode is brought to you by ECFA. So you know, as ministry to you by ECFA. So you know, as ministry to you by ECFA. So you know, as ministry ramps up this fall and holiday season, ramps up this fall and holiday season, ramps up this fall and holiday season, there is a higher risk for leader there is a higher risk for leader there is a higher risk for leader burnout. You know that. And that can burnout. You know that. And that can burnout. You know that. And that can create financial and reputational risks create financial and reputational risks create financial and reputational risks for ministries. Well, I've got Michael for ministries. Well, I've got Michael for ministries. Well, I've got Michael Martin from ECFA here to talk about how Martin from ECFA here to talk about how Martin from ECFA here to talk about how ministries can better care for their ministries can better care for their ministries can better care for their leaders and build trust. Michael. Hey, leaders and build trust. Michael. Hey, leaders and build trust. Michael. Hey, thanks so much Carey. First thing I want thanks so much Carey. First thing I want thanks so much Carey. First thing I want to say is I have great empathy for the to say is I have great empathy for the to say is I have great empathy for the leaders you're talking about cuz I'm one leaders you're talking about cuz I'm one leaders you're talking about cuz I'm one of them. of them. of them. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> what it's like to serve in ministry and >> what it's like to serve in ministry and >> what it's like to serve in ministry and experience uh you know, the unique experience uh you know, the unique experience uh you know, the unique pressures and the challenges that come pressures and the challenges that come pressures and the challenges that come with uh leadership. And so ECFA is with uh leadership. And so ECFA is with uh leadership. And so ECFA is really investing in proactive care and really investing in proactive care and really investing in proactive care and health for leaders and how can we help health for leaders and how can we help health for leaders and how can we help promote greater flourishing in ministry. promote greater flourishing in ministry. promote greater flourishing in ministry. I know that's an important value for I know that's an important value for I know that's an important value for you, but like what specifically can you, but like what specifically can you, but like what specifically can leaders listening, ministries listening leaders listening, ministries listening leaders listening, ministries listening do about it?

do about it? do about it? Yeah, so and this is all at Yeah, so and this is all at Yeah, so and this is all at ecfa.org/leadercare. ecfa.org/leadercare. ecfa.org/leadercare. You can check it all out, but of the You can check it all out, but of the You can check it all out, but of the unique things that ECFA is offering unique things that ECFA is offering unique things that ECFA is offering coming from a place of we've done a lot coming from a place of we've done a lot coming from a place of we've done a lot of work in the board space. And so of work in the board space. And so of work in the board space. And so uniquely, how can the governing boards uniquely, how can the governing boards uniquely, how can the governing boards come alongside leaders? We know that come alongside leaders? We know that come alongside leaders? We know that relationship at times needs work. Um relationship at times needs work. Um relationship at times needs work. Um there are boards that have challenges there are boards that have challenges there are boards that have challenges with leaders. Uh but they really care. with leaders. Uh but they really care. with leaders. Uh but they really care. We feel like have a unique uh not only a We feel like have a unique uh not only a We feel like have a unique uh not only a responsibility, but an opportunity to responsibility, but an opportunity to responsibility, but an opportunity to come alongside leaders and help invest come alongside leaders and help invest come alongside leaders and help invest in that proactive care and support. So in that proactive care and support. So in that proactive care and support. So we're just trying to make conversations we're just trying to make conversations we're just trying to make conversations around leader care uh around leader care uh around leader care uh easier to have, more natural for boards easier to have, more natural for boards easier to have, more natural for boards and leaders uh to work through. and leaders uh to work through. and leaders uh to work through. Well, that's great. You can visit Well, that's great. You can visit Well, that's great. You can visit ecfa.org/leadercare to learn more and download free to learn more and download free resources that will set your resources that will set your resources that will set your congregation up for success. Leader care congregation up for success. Leader care congregation up for success. Leader care is ministry care. is ministry care. is ministry care. Wow. Wow. Wow. I know I felt that pressure to solve. I know I felt that pressure to solve. I know I felt that pressure to solve. That's a male thing, right? Like That's a male thing, right? Like That's a male thing, right? Like >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm going to I'm going to solve this.

>> I'm going to I'm going to solve this. >> I'm going to I'm going to solve this. And I I never really could. So um And I I never really could. So um And I I never really could. So um the you know, Shanti I want to I want to the you know, Shanti I want to I want to the you know, Shanti I want to I want to I don't know why I'm telling stories all I don't know why I'm telling stories all I don't know why I'm telling stories all of a sudden, but it took me back to of a sudden, but it took me back to of a sudden, but it took me back to something I hadn't thought about in something I hadn't thought about in something I hadn't thought about in years. And it was something my mom said. years. And it was something my mom said. years. And it was something my mom said. It was somebody It was somebody It was somebody that's now in their 80s, but apparently that's now in their 80s, but apparently that's now in their 80s, but apparently when we moved up to the area when we moved up to the area when we moved up to the area uh where my parents you know, lived for uh where my parents you know, lived for uh where my parents you know, lived for many years, I was about 10. many years, I was about 10. many years, I was about 10. And we were checking out churches and And we were checking out churches and And we were checking out churches and this one couple invited us over after this one couple invited us over after this one couple invited us over after church. church. church. And they became friends and they knew And they became friends and they knew And they became friends and they knew each other, etc. And it brought me back each other, etc. And it brought me back each other, etc. And it brought me back to my college years in Toronto, you to my college years in Toronto, you to my college years in Toronto, you know, where we're single or even when know, where we're single or even when know, where we're single or even when Tony and I started dating and then got Tony and I started dating and then got Tony and I started dating and then got married. We were the quote young couple married. We were the quote young couple married. We were the quote young couple in our early to mid-20s, etc. etc. And in our early to mid-20s, etc. etc. And in our early to mid-20s, etc. etc. And it was very normal even in a big city it was very normal even in a big city it was very normal even in a big city like Toronto if we went and checked out like Toronto if we went and checked out like Toronto if we went and checked out a church a church a church for an older couple to say, hey, you for an older couple to say, hey, you for an older couple to say, hey, you want to come over for lunch, you know, I want to come over for lunch, you know, I want to come over for lunch, you know, I got a got a got a pot of soup on or some chili on.

pot of soup on or some chili on. pot of soup on or some chili on. And that was in the 90s. And that hasn't And that was in the 90s. And that hasn't And that was in the 90s. And that hasn't happened and I haven't done that happened and I haven't done that happened and I haven't done that in decades. But that was more normal in decades. But that was more normal in decades. But that was more normal even 30 years ago, wasn't it? It was and even 30 years ago, wasn't it? It was and even 30 years ago, wasn't it? It was and it's it's interesting to see it's it's interesting to see it's it's interesting to see some of these churches that we're some of these churches that we're some of these churches that we're talking about where they're realizing, talking about where they're realizing, talking about where they're realizing, okay, I have to do something differently okay, I have to do something differently okay, I have to do something differently because you know, the definition of because you know, the definition of because you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over insanity is doing the same thing over insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different and over again and expecting a different and over again and expecting a different result. result. result. And so what am I going to do differently And so what am I going to do differently And so what am I going to do differently with with our people? This is what I've with with our people? This is what I've with with our people? This is what I've heard from many different pastors and heard from many different pastors and heard from many different pastors and church leaders and to some degree a lot church leaders and to some degree a lot church leaders and to some degree a lot of clinicians who work in the church as of clinicians who work in the church as of clinicians who work in the church as well. And one of the things that people well. And one of the things that people well. And one of the things that people are getting creative about is okay, if are getting creative about is okay, if are getting creative about is okay, if we're talking about scale we're talking about scale we're talking about scale because you know, because you know, because you know, we maybe we have a few clinicians and we maybe we have a few clinicians and we maybe we have a few clinicians and maybe we have a few lay listeners that maybe we have a few lay listeners that maybe we have a few lay listeners that we've raised up, but we still need more. we've raised up, but we still need more. we've raised up, but we still need more. The numbers are just so big. The numbers are just so big. The numbers are just so big. Let's figure out how we can get people Let's figure out how we can get people Let's figure out how we can get people together in groups around meals.

together in groups around meals. together in groups around meals. And it's interesting to see how often And it's interesting to see how often And it's interesting to see how often that has just exploded. And I'll I'll that has just exploded. And I'll I'll that has just exploded. And I'll I'll give you one example that that we give you one example that that we give you one example that that we mentioned in the book because one of the mentioned in the book because one of the mentioned in the book because one of the things that we put in in the book is things that we put in in the book is things that we put in in the book is some of the different models that we some of the different models that we some of the different models that we heard, you know, from the different heard, you know, from the different heard, you know, from the different different churches of doing it different churches of doing it different churches of doing it completely differently. completely differently. completely differently. And one of my favorite And one of my favorite And one of my favorite ones was this little church in the ones was this little church in the ones was this little church in the middle of a rural area with no middle of a rural area with no middle of a rural area with no clinicians anywhere nearby, clinicians anywhere nearby, clinicians anywhere nearby, you know, an hour to the nearest small you know, an hour to the nearest small you know, an hour to the nearest small city, you know, that that kind of area. city, you know, that that kind of area. city, you know, that that kind of area. And they were having a massive And they were having a massive And they were having a massive um problem with the opioid epidemic, um problem with the opioid epidemic, um problem with the opioid epidemic, right? Like just tons of addictions and right? Like just tons of addictions and right? Like just tons of addictions and the church finally went, "We've got to the church finally went, "We've got to the church finally went, "We've got to do something. I don't know what to do. do something. I don't know what to do. do something. I don't know what to do. We got to do something." And so they We got to do something." And so they We got to do something." And so they took the money that they had been saving took the money that they had been saving took the money that they had been saving to refurbish their sanctuary. And they to refurbish their sanctuary. And they to refurbish their sanctuary. And they hired somebody who had a little a pastor hired somebody who had a little a pastor hired somebody who had a little a pastor and a counselor who was also a licensed and a counselor who was also a licensed and a counselor who was also a licensed therapist who had had a little bit of therapist who had had a little bit of therapist who had had a little bit of experience in recovery ministry.

experience in recovery ministry. experience in recovery ministry. And said, "Just start something. And said, "Just start something. And said, "Just start something. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I don't know what to start, but just do >> I don't know what to start, but just do >> I don't know what to start, but just do something." something." something." And so he said, "Okay, here's what we're And so he said, "Okay, here's what we're And so he said, "Okay, here's what we're going to do. Friday nights, going to do. Friday nights, going to do. Friday nights, we are going to have for all comers, we are going to have for all comers, we are going to have for all comers, we're going to have a meal, we're going to have a meal, we're going to have a meal, you know, and you can put in five bucks you know, and you can put in five bucks you know, and you can put in five bucks if you want, but we're going to have if you want, but we're going to have if you want, but we're going to have like, you know, a basic meal and a like, you know, a basic meal and a like, you know, a basic meal and a little bit of teaching, a little bit of little bit of teaching, a little bit of little bit of teaching, a little bit of worship, and a little bit of small group worship, and a little bit of small group worship, and a little bit of small group time. time. time. And just anybody can come. It's not just And just anybody can come. It's not just And just anybody can come. It's not just people with addictions, it's hurts, people with addictions, it's hurts, people with addictions, it's hurts, habits, and hang-ups, it's anybody, habits, and hang-ups, it's anybody, habits, and hang-ups, it's anybody, right? So, this church of four or 500 right? So, this church of four or 500 right? So, this church of four or 500 people, it I think it was maybe 300 at people, it I think it was maybe 300 at people, it I think it was maybe 300 at the time, suddenly they opened it up, the time, suddenly they opened it up, the time, suddenly they opened it up, there's 50 people there who come. Partly there's 50 people there who come. Partly there's 50 people there who come. Partly because it's dinner, right? Like it gets because it's dinner, right? Like it gets because it's dinner, right? Like it gets it's a fellowship chance, right? it's a fellowship chance, right? it's a fellowship chance, right? Free meal and fellowship. And then Free meal and fellowship. And then Free meal and fellowship. And then there's 100. And then there's 200. And there's 100. And then there's 200. And there's 100. And then there's 200. And now, today, this is only 5 6 years now, today, this is only 5 6 years now, today, this is only 5 6 years later, there are 500 people that show up later, there are 500 people that show up later, there are 500 people that show up every Friday night from all over the every Friday night from all over the every Friday night from all over the community, and it's because there's this community, and it's because there's this community, and it's because there's this opportunity for fellowship and belonging opportunity for fellowship and belonging opportunity for fellowship and belonging and community that people are just and community that people are just and community that people are just longing for. And they get the teaching, longing for. And they get the teaching, longing for. And they get the teaching, and they get the small group time, and and they get the small group time, and and they get the small group time, and as a result of that one thing, which is as a result of that one thing, which is as a result of that one thing, which is so basic, so basic, so basic, as a result of that, he said one of the as a result of that, he said one of the as a result of that, he said one of the patterns that they see over and over and patterns that they see over and over and patterns that they see over and over and over is that people who have real over is that people who have real over is that people who have real issues, who are on a waitlist, which may

issues, who are on a waitlist, which may issues, who are on a waitlist, which may be, you know, 2 months down the road to be, you know, 2 months down the road to be, you know, 2 months down the road to see a clinician, see a clinician, see a clinician, they come to the church or they go to they come to the church or they go to they come to the church or they go to the the clinician and they say, "You the the clinician and they say, "You the the clinician and they say, "You know what? know what? know what? I think I'm okay for now. Like I'm I'm I think I'm okay for now. Like I'm I'm I think I'm okay for now. Like I'm I'm going to this thing on Friday nights, going to this thing on Friday nights, going to this thing on Friday nights, I'm in this small group, I'm working it, I'm in this small group, I'm working it, I'm in this small group, I'm working it, I'm I'm digging into the Lord, and I I'm I'm digging into the Lord, and I I'm I'm digging into the Lord, and I think I'm okay for the moment. I'll get think I'm okay for the moment. I'll get think I'm okay for the moment. I'll get back on the waitlist if I need to. back on the waitlist if I need to. back on the waitlist if I need to. But let me take myself off the waitlist But let me take myself off the waitlist But let me take myself off the waitlist for the moment." And I thought, "What a for the moment." And I thought, "What a for the moment." And I thought, "What a perfect example of how something so perfect example of how something so perfect example of how something so simple simple simple could end up resulting in a really big could end up resulting in a really big could end up resulting in a really big life transformation life transformation life transformation for some people." Jim, does that compute for some people." Jim, does that compute for some people." Jim, does that compute like if if I'm plugged into a meaningful like if if I'm plugged into a meaningful like if if I'm plugged into a meaningful community, community, community, is there any statistical evidence that is there any statistical evidence that is there any statistical evidence that that mental health issues can resolve that mental health issues can resolve that mental health issues can resolve the simply by Okay, take us through the simply by Okay, take us through the simply by Okay, take us through that. Now, there are uh that. Now, there are uh that. Now, there are uh there's a yes and no. Uh when we have there's a yes and no. Uh when we have there's a yes and no. Uh when we have when we have when we have when we have brain dysfunction, brain dysfunction, brain dysfunction, a a community does not eliminate brain a a community does not eliminate brain a a community does not eliminate brain dysfunction. When we have the the uh dysfunction. When we have the the uh dysfunction. When we have the the uh serotonin serotonin serotonin uh uh uh imbalances, I don't like to use that imbalances, I don't like to use that imbalances, I don't like to use that word chemical imbalance, but I just did, word chemical imbalance, but I just did, word chemical imbalance, but I just did, so my apology to all my colleagues. Uh so my apology to all my colleagues. Uh so my apology to all my colleagues. Uh when we when we when we >> some angry emails from him.

>> some angry emails from him. >> some angry emails from him. >> Yeah, really. [laughter] When we have >> Yeah, really. [laughter] When we have >> Yeah, really. [laughter] When we have serotonin disruption, relationship does serotonin disruption, relationship does serotonin disruption, relationship does not balance the brain. not balance the brain. not balance the brain. But relationship provides hope. But relationship provides hope. But relationship provides hope. It provides meaning. It provides kind of It provides meaning. It provides kind of It provides meaning. It provides kind of a succor in the presence of pain. a succor in the presence of pain. a succor in the presence of pain. And and that that in and of itself has a And and that that in and of itself has a And and that that in and of itself has a a a deep healing quality. a a deep healing quality. a a deep healing quality. Now, the it's it's actually classic Now, the it's it's actually classic Now, the it's it's actually classic around like the question of do you need around like the question of do you need around like the question of do you need talk therapy or do you need medication? talk therapy or do you need medication? talk therapy or do you need medication? And the evidence is medication works, And the evidence is medication works, And the evidence is medication works, and talk therapy works, and medication and talk therapy works, and medication and talk therapy works, and medication and talk therapy for someone who has a and talk therapy for someone who has a and talk therapy for someone who has a generalized anxiety disorder generalized anxiety disorder generalized anxiety disorder uh works better than medication or talk uh works better than medication or talk uh works better than medication or talk therapy alone. So, if you want to say, therapy alone. So, if you want to say, therapy alone. So, if you want to say, does relationship does relationship does relationship have the capacity to to have the capacity to to have the capacity to to ease he ease suffering? Yes, it does. In ease he ease suffering? Yes, it does. In ease he ease suffering? Yes, it does. In certain cases, it does not remove it certain cases, it does not remove it certain cases, it does not remove it because there is still the brain because there is still the brain because there is still the brain >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> uh >> uh >> uh malfunction that medication can help malfunction that medication can help malfunction that medication can help correct.

correct. correct. Particularly then, as it is corrected, Particularly then, as it is corrected, Particularly then, as it is corrected, it gives the person a better capacity to it gives the person a better capacity to it gives the person a better capacity to adjust to life and do self-correcting adjust to life and do self-correcting adjust to life and do self-correcting after the medication has created a level after the medication has created a level after the medication has created a level of of of of of of a a level of resilience so they can stay a a level of resilience so they can stay a a level of resilience so they can stay in the stress game a little bit longer in the stress game a little bit longer in the stress game a little bit longer without needing to just stay in bed or without needing to just stay in bed or without needing to just stay in bed or to remove themselves from any kind of to remove themselves from any kind of to remove themselves from any kind of work environment that creates another work environment that creates another work environment that creates another level of complication to their needs. level of complication to their needs. level of complication to their needs. What's um Yeah, go ahead. What What's um Yeah, go ahead. What What's um Yeah, go ahead. What Like I'm thinking and I'm not a mental Like I'm thinking and I'm not a mental Like I'm thinking and I'm not a mental health expert, but I have lots of health expert, but I have lots of health expert, but I have lots of friends in the field, and we talk about friends in the field, and we talk about friends in the field, and we talk about this all the time. I have one this all the time. I have one this all the time. I have one particularly close friend who's working particularly close friend who's working particularly close friend who's working on a book, and his argument is that a on a book, and his argument is that a on a book, and his argument is that a lot of the stuff that pediatricians and lot of the stuff that pediatricians and lot of the stuff that pediatricians and diagnosing, you know, disabilities for diagnosing, you know, disabilities for diagnosing, you know, disabilities for or prescribing medication for, he says or prescribing medication for, he says or prescribing medication for, he says what he wants to do is just get the what he wants to do is just get the what he wants to do is just get the parents together and say, "You guys just parents together and say, "You guys just parents together and say, "You guys just need to be a functional family. You need need to be a functional family. You need need to be a functional family. You need to have meals together." You like he is to have meals together." You like he is to have meals together." You like he is he is, you know, and definitely there he is, you know, and definitely there he is, you know, and definitely there are exceptions to the rule, but that the are exceptions to the rule, but that the are exceptions to the rule, but that the breakdown, his thesis is that the breakdown, his thesis is that the breakdown, his thesis is that the breakdown in the family unit, I'm not breakdown in the family unit, I'm not breakdown in the family unit, I'm not just talking about marriage and divorce, just talking about marriage and divorce, just talking about marriage and divorce, but even communication skills. Um but even communication skills. Um but even communication skills. Um Togetherness is so profound a rupture Togetherness is so profound a rupture Togetherness is so profound a rupture that that's producing a lot of the that that's producing a lot of the that that's producing a lot of the mental health challenges that that kids mental health challenges that that kids mental health challenges that that kids are facing. So, when you look at that, are facing. So, when you look at that, are facing. So, when you look at that, um um um you know, I totally understand that you know, I totally understand that you know, I totally understand that people need medication for mental people need medication for mental people need medication for mental health, but there's a lot of stuff that

health, but there's a lot of stuff that health, but there's a lot of stuff that no medication's going to cure. What does no medication's going to cure. What does no medication's going to cure. What does community and connection cure that a community and connection cure that a community and connection cure that a pill, you know, makes a pill pill, you know, makes a pill pill, you know, makes a pill unnecessary? unnecessary? unnecessary? Uh it gives us it gives us um in in the in in the um in in the in in the um in in the in in the best textbook on group therapy by Irvin best textbook on group therapy by Irvin best textbook on group therapy by Irvin Yalom, a Stanford psychiatrist from a Yalom, a Stanford psychiatrist from a Yalom, a Stanford psychiatrist from a generation, I believe he's still alive, generation, I believe he's still alive, generation, I believe he's still alive, but but uh no longer producing new but but uh no longer producing new but but uh no longer producing new material. He says in essence group, and material. He says in essence group, and material. He says in essence group, and you want to take from group you want to take from group you want to take from group relationship. [clears throat] relationship. [clears throat] relationship. [clears throat] So, relational therapy, relational So, relational therapy, relational So, relational therapy, relational interaction uh gives us 11 curative interaction uh gives us 11 curative interaction uh gives us 11 curative factors. The most important one is hope. factors. The most important one is hope. factors. The most important one is hope. The second most important one is the The second most important one is the The second most important one is the idea of universality. idea of universality. idea of universality. Where like like C.S. Lewis in his Where like like C.S. Lewis in his Where like like C.S. Lewis in his definition of friendship, "What what definition of friendship, "What what definition of friendship, "What what what? You too?" what? You too?" what? You too?" Uh that is a therapeutic Uh that is a therapeutic Uh that is a therapeutic uh enterprise. It's it that is a healing uh enterprise. It's it that is a healing uh enterprise. It's it that is a healing agent. When I realize that I am not agent. When I realize that I am not agent. When I realize that I am not alone, and that this thing has a a alone, and that this thing has a a alone, and that this thing has a a temporal quality to it that I can work temporal quality to it that I can work temporal quality to it that I can work through this and get better cuz I see through this and get better cuz I see through this and get better cuz I see other people around me who have are other people around me who have are other people around me who have are working through it and getting better.

working through it and getting better. working through it and getting better. So, those those two things, and there's So, those those two things, and there's So, those those two things, and there's a a a nine other additional factors that that nine other additional factors that that nine other additional factors that that seem to be evident when there is a seem to be evident when there is a seem to be evident when there is a community of care. Shanti, you know, churches I can hear Shanti, you know, churches I can hear some pastors saying, "Great, we've some pastors saying, "Great, we've some pastors saying, "Great, we've already checked the box. We have small already checked the box. We have small already checked the box. We have small groups. We have, you know, 70 80 90% of groups. We have, you know, 70 80 90% of groups. We have, you know, 70 80 90% of our people." I know one church that has our people." I know one church that has our people." I know one church that has something like 120% of its weekend something like 120% of its weekend something like 120% of its weekend attendance in small groups. attendance in small groups. attendance in small groups. I mean, we have seen the prevalence of I mean, we have seen the prevalence of I mean, we have seen the prevalence of small groups go through the roof in small groups go through the roof in small groups go through the roof in churches, but we've also seen Yeah, churches, but we've also seen Yeah, churches, but we've also seen Yeah, which is which is incredible. I'm in which is which is incredible. I'm in which is which is incredible. I'm in one, but we've also seen mental health one, but we've also seen mental health one, but we've also seen mental health continue to, you know, increase in terms continue to, you know, increase in terms continue to, you know, increase in terms of dysfunction and spiral if you want to of dysfunction and spiral if you want to of dysfunction and spiral if you want to look at it the other way. So, look at it the other way. So, look at it the other way. So, what would you say to those pastors who what would you say to those pastors who what would you say to those pastors who are like, "Oh, we already got this. We are like, "Oh, we already got this. We are like, "Oh, we already got this. We have small groups." See, here's the have small groups." See, here's the have small groups." See, here's the here's the issue. If the culture of the here's the issue. If the culture of the here's the issue. If the culture of the church is "Oh my goodness, I'm not a church is "Oh my goodness, I'm not a church is "Oh my goodness, I'm not a specialist. Let's refer out to these specialist. Let's refer out to these specialist. Let's refer out to these great counselors that we have in our great counselors that we have in our great counselors that we have in our network." Which again, is awesome, network." Which again, is awesome, network." Which again, is awesome, right? Like that can be very very right? Like that can be very very right? Like that can be very very needed, but if that's the culture of the needed, but if that's the culture of the needed, but if that's the culture of the church, that's going to filter to the church, that's going to filter to the church, that's going to filter to the small group. And so what often happens small group. And so what often happens small group. And so what often happens is and Jeff and I, my husband and I, is and Jeff and I, my husband and I, is and Jeff and I, my husband and I, were small group leaders for years. And were small group leaders for years. And were small group leaders for years. And so if people came to us, so if people came to us, so if people came to us, you know, in pain or in turmoil, you know, in pain or in turmoil, you know, in pain or in turmoil, it would be probably it would be probably it would be probably 70% chance that I'm like, "Okay, let me 70% chance that I'm like, "Okay, let me 70% chance that I'm like, "Okay, let me call the pastor.

call the pastor. call the pastor. Let me get you in to see the pastor, or Let me get you in to see the pastor, or Let me get you in to see the pastor, or let's get you in to see the pastor so let's get you in to see the pastor so let's get you in to see the pastor so they can refer you to a specialist." And they can refer you to a specialist." And they can refer you to a specialist." And it could literally just be that they're it could literally just be that they're it could literally just be that they're just having marriage issues. Like they just having marriage issues. Like they just having marriage issues. Like they just they don't know how to communicate just they don't know how to communicate just they don't know how to communicate well. And one of the things that we well. And one of the things that we well. And one of the things that we often all, you know, sort of remind often all, you know, sort of remind often all, you know, sort of remind pastors who don't know who don't maybe pastors who don't know who don't maybe pastors who don't know who don't maybe feel like they're allowed feel like they're allowed feel like they're allowed to tackle some of these things anymore to tackle some of these things anymore to tackle some of these things anymore because the the professionalization of because the the professionalization of because the the professionalization of mental health has made pastors feel like mental health has made pastors feel like mental health has made pastors feel like that's not my lane. I'm I'm not allowed that's not my lane. I'm I'm not allowed that's not my lane. I'm I'm not allowed to do that. We we often will say, you to do that. We we often will say, you to do that. We we often will say, you know, specialization can be really know, specialization can be really know, specialization can be really really handy. really handy. really handy. And yet that specialist And yet that specialist And yet that specialist remember they're not allowed to come remember they're not allowed to come remember they're not allowed to come over to your house for dinner on over to your house for dinner on over to your house for dinner on Thursday night. Thursday night. Thursday night. Right? They're not allowed to be a Right? They're not allowed to be a Right? They're not allowed to be a friend. They have their lane. friend. They have their lane. friend. They have their lane. And so what about for some of the cases And so what about for some of the cases And so what about for some of the cases that maybe aren't as significant that maybe aren't as significant that maybe aren't as significant where a couple with marriage issues where a couple with marriage issues where a couple with marriage issues honestly if they go see a specialist if honestly if they go see a specialist if honestly if they go see a specialist if the specialist is doing their job the the specialist is doing their job the the specialist is doing their job the specialist is probably going to say, specialist is probably going to say, specialist is probably going to say, "Okay, here's your homework. Find a "Okay, here's your homework. Find a "Okay, here's your homework. Find a couple with a healthy marriage and go to couple with a healthy marriage and go to couple with a healthy marriage and go to their house for dinner every Thursday their house for dinner every Thursday their house for dinner every Thursday night for the next few weeks." Right?

night for the next few weeks." Right? night for the next few weeks." Right? Like find a couple to walk alongside Like find a couple to walk alongside Like find a couple to walk alongside you. And so we one of the things we're you. And so we one of the things we're you. And so we one of the things we're telling the pastors is if every if we telling the pastors is if every if we telling the pastors is if every if we are doing our job we will be building are doing our job we will be building are doing our job we will be building that layer of and capacity for lay care that layer of and capacity for lay care that layer of and capacity for lay care and the culture of care within the and the culture of care within the and the culture of care within the church anyway even if we also continue church anyway even if we also continue church anyway even if we also continue as we hopefully will to refer out to the as we hopefully will to refer out to the as we hopefully will to refer out to the specialists at times. We have to do specialists at times. We have to do specialists at times. We have to do both. both. both. And the small group leader there's And the small group leader there's And the small group leader there's nothing in the small group leader that nothing in the small group leader that nothing in the small group leader that is going to make them go, "Oh, that's my is going to make them go, "Oh, that's my is going to make them go, "Oh, that's my job." Not just I need to refer out to job." Not just I need to refer out to job." Not just I need to refer out to somebody else unless you make it part of somebody else unless you make it part of somebody else unless you make it part of the culture of the church and unless the culture of the church and unless the culture of the church and unless hopefully the small group leaders are hopefully the small group leaders are hopefully the small group leaders are Hey, let's all go through this listening Hey, let's all go through this listening Hey, let's all go through this listening training. It's just a few hours. training. It's just a few hours. training. It's just a few hours. Everybody should go through this. In in Everybody should go through this. In in Everybody should go through this. In in these kind of terms that I think maybe these kind of terms that I think maybe these kind of terms that I think maybe make it graspable to be grasped by make it graspable to be grasped by make it graspable to be grasped by everybody. everybody. everybody. Um Um Um I see as a psychologist people who are I see as a psychologist people who are I see as a psychologist people who are anxious anxious anxious and people who are depressed and people who are depressed and people who are depressed and there's a criteria and there's a criteria and there's a criteria uh uh uh defining for me defining for me defining for me anxiety and depression.

anxiety and depression. anxiety and depression. And inside anxiety and depression is And inside anxiety and depression is And inside anxiety and depression is also worry, stress sadness and also worry, stress sadness and also worry, stress sadness and discouragement. discouragement. discouragement. Now, you two are not therapists and you Now, you two are not therapists and you Now, you two are not therapists and you don't have licenses to treat anxiety or don't have licenses to treat anxiety or don't have licenses to treat anxiety or depression. depression. depression. But you are perfectly capable of sitting But you are perfectly capable of sitting But you are perfectly capable of sitting with someone who is sad. with someone who is sad. with someone who is sad. Now, it just so happens that the same Now, it just so happens that the same Now, it just so happens that the same person that I treat for their depression person that I treat for their depression person that I treat for their depression is also sad. is also sad. is also sad. Mhm. And so I can attend to the Mhm. And so I can attend to the Mhm. And so I can attend to the depressive state depressive state depressive state and give you the sad state. And there is and give you the sad state. And there is and give you the sad state. And there is a significant overlap between what I do a significant overlap between what I do a significant overlap between what I do and what you do. Uh Shanti just said it's it's like you Uh Shanti just said it's it's like you can do it can do it can do it at Starbucks at Starbucks at Starbucks uh over a a chai latte uh over a a chai latte uh over a a chai latte and and you don't need an appointment. and and you don't need an appointment. and and you don't need an appointment. Uh you can do it on a walk through the Uh you can do it on a walk through the Uh you can do it on a walk through the woods of of the regional park in your woods of of the regional park in your woods of of the regional park in your community.

community. community. And it it and there's no one that you And it it and there's no one that you And it it and there's no one that you bill. bill. bill. Uh you can do it with an open Bible and Uh you can do it with an open Bible and Uh you can do it with an open Bible and and a coffee pot at a kitchen table. and a coffee pot at a kitchen table. and a coffee pot at a kitchen table. And and that is much more human And and that is much more human And and that is much more human than what I do. What I do is really than what I do. What I do is really than what I do. What I do is really really weird. Like I I I take on the really weird. Like I I I take on the really weird. Like I I I take on the professional role of a friend. professional role of a friend. professional role of a friend. But it's not a real role as a friend. But it's not a real role as a friend. But it's not a real role as a friend. It's a professional role with a set of It's a professional role with a set of It's a professional role with a set of disciplines to work with the most disciplines to work with the most disciplines to work with the most complicated levels of human pain. complicated levels of human pain. complicated levels of human pain. Uh and I I cherish that role and it's Uh and I I cherish that role and it's Uh and I I cherish that role and it's valuable and I don't want to demean what valuable and I don't want to demean what valuable and I don't want to demean what I do at all. What I want to do is I want I do at all. What I want to do is I want I do at all. What I want to do is I want to to to uplift what everybody else has uplift what everybody else has uplift what everybody else has capability to do. But do you you give capability to do. But do you you give capability to do. But do you you give everything to me and I want to give it everything to me and I want to give it everything to me and I want to give it back to you back to you back to you and say, "Let me get let me take care of and say, "Let me get let me take care of and say, "Let me get let me take care of the stuff that's that's outside of your the stuff that's that's outside of your the stuff that's that's outside of your pay grade. pay grade. pay grade. But you take care of the stuff that's But you take care of the stuff that's But you take care of the stuff that's within your capacity as a church. You within your capacity as a church. You within your capacity as a church. You can do that far more effectively than I can do that far more effectively than I can do that far more effectively than I could ever approach it uh because of could ever approach it uh because of could ever approach it uh because of your capacity as a real friend.

your capacity as a real friend. your capacity as a real friend. So let's um let's take a a church that So let's um let's take a a church that So let's um let's take a a church that would be a church scenario that would be would be a church scenario that would be would be a church scenario that would be very familiar to most listeners. Okay? very familiar to most listeners. Okay? very familiar to most listeners. Okay? You've got You've got You've got a couple hundred or over a thousand a couple hundred or over a thousand a couple hundred or over a thousand people in attendance. people in attendance. people in attendance. You got a functional small group system. You got a functional small group system. You got a functional small group system. Let's assume it's working well. They're Let's assume it's working well. They're Let's assume it's working well. They're doing Bible study. They're studying the doing Bible study. They're studying the doing Bible study. They're studying the weekend message. They're They've got a weekend message. They're They've got a weekend message. They're They've got a healthy percentage of people in groups. healthy percentage of people in groups. healthy percentage of people in groups. They've got volunteers and they're They've got volunteers and they're They've got volunteers and they're operating as most churches do which is operating as most churches do which is operating as most churches do which is you punt or it's like, you know, add you punt or it's like, you know, add you punt or it's like, you know, add your name to the list. Cuz I'll see you your name to the list. Cuz I'll see you your name to the list. Cuz I'll see you in a month, right? in a month, right? in a month, right? How what How what How what what do these changes start to look what do these changes start to look what do these changes start to look like? Like what do they have to do? Do like? Like what do they have to do? Do like? Like what do they have to do? Do they have to dismantle everything and they have to dismantle everything and they have to dismantle everything and start over again? What what do they do? start over again? What what do they do? start over again? What what do they do? >> Please no. No, no, no. No, no. >> Please no. No, no, no. No, no. >> Please no. No, no, no. No, no. Do you mind if I just jump in there, Do you mind if I just jump in there, Do you mind if I just jump in there, Jim? Jim? Jim? >> You jump in. Okay, I >> You jump in. Okay, I >> You jump in. Okay, I I will tell you one of the common I will tell you one of the common I will tell you one of the common denominators that we heard over and over denominators that we heard over and over denominators that we heard over and over in the churches that had indeed taken in the churches that had indeed taken in the churches that had indeed taken that first step and gone, "What does that first step and gone, "What does that first step and gone, "What does this look like?" And we heard from them this look like?" And we heard from them this look like?" And we heard from them that A that A that A it had to be led by somebody other than it had to be led by somebody other than it had to be led by somebody other than the pastor.

the pastor. the pastor. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Because the pastor every pastor I know >> Because the pastor every pastor I know >> Because the pastor every pastor I know is the busiest person that I know, is the busiest person that I know, is the busiest person that I know, right? And I just want to tell all the right? And I just want to tell all the right? And I just want to tell all the pastors listening to this, thank you pastors listening to this, thank you pastors listening to this, thank you because you are seen at least by many because you are seen at least by many because you are seen at least by many people who recognize that your lives are people who recognize that your lives are people who recognize that your lives are pretty overwhelming at times. pretty overwhelming at times. pretty overwhelming at times. So a key volunteer or staff member then So a key volunteer or staff member then So a key volunteer or staff member then or what is it? or what is it? or what is it? >> Well, no, here's what often happens is >> Well, no, here's what often happens is >> Well, no, here's what often happens is for the pastor will stand up. This is for the pastor will stand up. This is for the pastor will stand up. This is I've heard this pattern over and over. I've heard this pattern over and over. I've heard this pattern over and over. Where either somebody comes to the Where either somebody comes to the Where either somebody comes to the pastor with this as a vision and by the pastor with this as a vision and by the pastor with this as a vision and by the way if you were listening to this and way if you were listening to this and way if you were listening to this and you are not a pastor, please pray about you are not a pastor, please pray about you are not a pastor, please pray about whether the reason you're interested in whether the reason you're interested in whether the reason you're interested in it is because you're supposed to go to it is because you're supposed to go to it is because you're supposed to go to your pastor and say, "I want to help." your pastor and say, "I want to help." your pastor and say, "I want to help." But it's either that they go to them or But it's either that they go to them or But it's either that they go to them or that the pastor stands up on stage on a that the pastor stands up on stage on a that the pastor stands up on stage on a Sunday morning Sunday morning Sunday morning and says and says and says "We really need to do something in this "We really need to do something in this "We really need to do something in this space around mental and emotional space around mental and emotional space around mental and emotional health. health. health. I can't be the one that leads it but I can't be the one that leads it but I can't be the one that leads it but we'll get this started.

we'll get this started. we'll get this started. In two Thursday nights we're going to In two Thursday nights we're going to In two Thursday nights we're going to have a meeting. If you are interested in have a meeting. If you are interested in have a meeting. If you are interested in being part of this come sign up for this being part of this come sign up for this being part of this come sign up for this meeting and see who God brings you." meeting and see who God brings you." meeting and see who God brings you." And it's fascinating to hear these And it's fascinating to hear these And it's fascinating to hear these stories of where people came out of the stories of where people came out of the stories of where people came out of the woodwork. Like one counselor said she woodwork. Like one counselor said she woodwork. Like one counselor said she was she was a licensed counselor was she was a licensed counselor was she was a licensed counselor and she had been volunteering for two or and she had been volunteering for two or and she had been volunteering for two or three hours a week in the children's three hours a week in the children's three hours a week in the children's ministry. And she's like, "Uh this would ministry. And she's like, "Uh this would ministry. And she's like, "Uh this would be a better use of my volunteer time." be a better use of my volunteer time." be a better use of my volunteer time." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And so she helped the pastor get >> And so she helped the pastor get >> And so she helped the pastor get something started and they eventually something started and they eventually something started and they eventually created a a lay listening kind of created a a lay listening kind of created a a lay listening kind of program and they now have if I'm program and they now have if I'm program and they now have if I'm remembering correctly something like 11 remembering correctly something like 11 remembering correctly something like 11 or 12 lay listeners and they've just or 12 lay listeners and they've just or 12 lay listeners and they've just become much more purposeful about become much more purposeful about become much more purposeful about connecting people within the church not connecting people within the church not connecting people within the church not just referring them out. And so that's just referring them out. And so that's just referring them out. And so that's what we're talking about. Find that what we're talking about. Find that what we're talking about. Find that person who can own this and help take it person who can own this and help take it person who can own this and help take it off your shoulders. Do you do anything off your shoulders. Do you do anything off your shoulders. Do you do anything with the existing small groups?

with the existing small groups? with the existing small groups? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Uh what we do >> Uh what we do >> Uh what we do is is is in in the original model that we created in in the original model that we created in in the original model that we created in the church cares initiative we said, in the church cares initiative we said, in the church cares initiative we said, "We're going to start with individuals "We're going to start with individuals "We're going to start with individuals and we're going to have a have a and we're going to have a have a and we're going to have a have a treatment plan of four or five weeks. treatment plan of four or five weeks. treatment plan of four or five weeks. And in that individual conversation And in that individual conversation And in that individual conversation between between one worshiper and between between one worshiper and between between one worshiper and another worshiper another worshiper another worshiper uh uh uh and and after about four weeks the and and after about four weeks the and and after about four weeks the vision is to to integrate that person vision is to to integrate that person vision is to to integrate that person into a smaller community a group. into a smaller community a group. into a smaller community a group. And and if the the And and if the the And and if the the the the worshipping or the listener the the worshipping or the listener the the worshipping or the listener worshiper that person that's the worshiper that person that's the worshiper that person that's the caregiver the the listener within the caregiver the the listener within the caregiver the the listener within the church does not have a perpetual church does not have a perpetual church does not have a perpetual relationship with that person for the relationship with that person for the relationship with that person for the next 43 years of their life. next 43 years of their life. next 43 years of their life. Uh rather like I understand and we have Uh rather like I understand and we have Uh rather like I understand and we have an initial problem-solving strategy an initial problem-solving strategy an initial problem-solving strategy we're implementing and we're going to we're implementing and we're going to we're implementing and we're going to create another a broader community that create another a broader community that create another a broader community that can stand with you around the can stand with you around the can stand with you around the complexities of your life and complexities of your life and complexities of your life and so that you can stand with them.

so that you can stand with them. so that you can stand with them. Uh and what does that community look Uh and what does that community look Uh and what does that community look like? like? like? >> That is that becomes your small group >> That is that becomes your small group >> That is that becomes your small group community. That becomes your celebrate community. That becomes your celebrate community. That becomes your celebrate recovery if that's if there is an a recovery if that's if there is an a recovery if that's if there is an a historic addiction or if there is a a historic addiction or if there is a a historic addiction or if there is a a unique need that's in that middle level unique need that's in that middle level unique need that's in that middle level of the triangle all of our small groups of the triangle all of our small groups of the triangle all of our small groups are there. are there. are there. But it's the introduction to I can't get But it's the introduction to I can't get But it's the introduction to I can't get to a small group because I'm I'm to a small group because I'm I'm to a small group because I'm I'm overwhelmed with my stuff. overwhelmed with my stuff. overwhelmed with my stuff. Right. And they would disrupt the small Right. And they would disrupt the small Right. And they would disrupt the small group. group. group. >> And and so like good. >> And and so like good. >> And and so like good. Let's let's Let's let's Let's let's let's bring soothing to your stuff. let's bring soothing to your stuff. let's bring soothing to your stuff. And and then integrate you with your And and then integrate you with your And and then integrate you with your stuff into this other community stuff into this other community stuff into this other community with people who also have stuff. with people who also have stuff. with people who also have stuff. And and and let's all share our stuff And and and let's all share our stuff And and and let's all share our stuff and allow the gospel to do what it can and allow the gospel to do what it can and allow the gospel to do what it can do. do. do. But there's another piece of this as But there's another piece of this as But there's another piece of this as well, Carey, that I think is one of the well, Carey, that I think is one of the well, Carey, that I think is one of the things you were pressing in on earlier, things you were pressing in on earlier, things you were pressing in on earlier, which is when you say how do you which is when you say how do you which is when you say how do you integrate the small groups, integrate the small groups, integrate the small groups, you can come at from the other direction you can come at from the other direction you can come at from the other direction as well, which is as well, which is as well, which is this is an area where we say train every this is an area where we say train every this is an area where we say train every small group listener in listening. Every small group listener in listening. Every small group listener in listening. Every small group leader, excuse me. Train small group leader, excuse me. Train small group leader, excuse me. Train every small group leader in listening.

every small group leader in listening. every small group leader in listening. In this in this basic basic skill set In this in this basic basic skill set In this in this basic basic skill set that is, you know, not huge overwhelming that is, you know, not huge overwhelming that is, you know, not huge overwhelming licensed counseling, whatever, but they licensed counseling, whatever, but they licensed counseling, whatever, but they will feel more confident and capable and will feel more confident and capable and will feel more confident and capable and will be able to have a much better sense will be able to have a much better sense will be able to have a much better sense for okay, do can is this something I can for okay, do can is this something I can for okay, do can is this something I can walk alongside with this person you walk alongside with this person you walk alongside with this person you know, our small group can walk alongside know, our small group can walk alongside know, our small group can walk alongside or is this rising to the level that or is this rising to the level that or is this rising to the level that actually this is an example of something actually this is an example of something actually this is an example of something where I need a higher level of care. And where I need a higher level of care. And where I need a higher level of care. And so when you have a church that's very so when you have a church that's very so when you have a church that's very small group oriented, oh, I think that's small group oriented, oh, I think that's small group oriented, oh, I think that's a slam dunk of just getting a little bit a slam dunk of just getting a little bit a slam dunk of just getting a little bit more skills development into the leaders more skills development into the leaders more skills development into the leaders of the church and especially that small of the church and especially that small of the church and especially that small group leader. group leader. group leader. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's another dimension too around There's another dimension too around There's another dimension too around this concept and that is this concept and that is this concept and that is I were our conversation is focused on I were our conversation is focused on I were our conversation is focused on developing developing developing care givers. Developing people who are care givers. Developing people who are care givers. Developing people who are trained and this is their ministry.

trained and this is their ministry. trained and this is their ministry. Well, what about if you interact with Well, what about if you interact with Well, what about if you interact with another human being in church, another human being in church, another human being in church, you need to be able to do this. Just you need to be able to do this. Just you need to be able to do this. Just like if you need to if if if you're a like if you need to if if if you're a like if you need to if if if you're a human being that follows Jesus, you need human being that follows Jesus, you need human being that follows Jesus, you need to be able to share Jesus with your to be able to share Jesus with your to be able to share Jesus with your neighbor. Like a basic neighbor. Like a basic neighbor. Like a basic a basic capacity to to know how to a basic capacity to to know how to a basic capacity to to know how to introduce someone to Christ. Yes, that's introduce someone to Christ. Yes, that's introduce someone to Christ. Yes, that's a a fundamental Christian skill. a a fundamental Christian skill. a a fundamental Christian skill. You need to be able to be comfortable in You need to be able to be comfortable in You need to be able to be comfortable in sitting with another person in pain sitting with another person in pain sitting with another person in pain and not be overwhelmed and not feel like and not be overwhelmed and not feel like and not be overwhelmed and not feel like I I I I don't I don't I don't like somebody else needs to do this. Who like somebody else needs to do this. Who like somebody else needs to do this. Who do I call? Like yes, maybe for that do I call? Like yes, maybe for that do I call? Like yes, maybe for that complicated case, someone needs to take complicated case, someone needs to take complicated case, someone needs to take it for as far as you can go, but you it for as far as you can go, but you it for as far as you can go, but you walk the first steps. Okay, so I'm starting to get a picture Okay, so I'm starting to get a picture here. Basically, small groups stay, here. Basically, small groups stay, here. Basically, small groups stay, but maybe there is a training a but maybe there is a training a but maybe there is a training a reorientation that moves us toward reorientation that moves us toward reorientation that moves us toward better listening, better empathy, better better listening, better empathy, better better listening, better empathy, better carrying each other's burdens. You have carrying each other's burdens. You have carrying each other's burdens. You have a group and it sounds like a handful to a group and it sounds like a handful to a group and it sounds like a handful to two handfuls of people who are trained two handfuls of people who are trained two handfuls of people who are trained lay listeners lay listeners lay listeners who take who take who take some of the more some of the more some of the more heavy needs cases, listen.

heavy needs cases, listen. heavy needs cases, listen. Sometimes that solves it. Sometimes you Sometimes that solves it. Sometimes you Sometimes that solves it. Sometimes you you could push them into the well, move you could push them into the well, move you could push them into the well, move them, not push. Move them into the them, not push. Move them into the them, not push. Move them into the bottom of the triangle or, you know, if bottom of the triangle or, you know, if bottom of the triangle or, you know, if it's an addictions recovery kind of it's an addictions recovery kind of it's an addictions recovery kind of thing into the middle. thing into the middle. thing into the middle. Or potentially, wow, you go you need to Or potentially, wow, you go you need to Or potentially, wow, you go you need to go and see Dr. So-and-so and, you know, go and see Dr. So-and-so and, you know, go and see Dr. So-and-so and, you know, they get the the trained professional they get the the trained professional they get the the trained professional help that they need. Is that basically help that they need. Is that basically help that they need. Is that basically the model? the model? the model? >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> And there's about a thousand different >> And there's about a thousand different >> And there's about a thousand different ways that that plays out. There's Right. ways that that plays out. There's Right. ways that that plays out. There's Right. Every church has a different DNA and Every church has a different DNA and Every church has a different DNA and it's going to look different in every it's going to look different in every it's going to look different in every church. Yeah. church. Yeah. church. Yeah. >> But the bottom line is that and this >> But the bottom line is that and this >> But the bottom line is that and this sounds so basic, but it's basically sounds so basic, but it's basically sounds so basic, but it's basically what's disappeared what's disappeared what's disappeared if if my data is correct over the last if if my data is correct over the last if if my data is correct over the last 30 to 50 years, what's disappeared from 30 to 50 years, what's disappeared from 30 to 50 years, what's disappeared from our culture is that community. You look our culture is that community. You look our culture is that community. You look at some of Scott Galloway, who's at some of Scott Galloway, who's at some of Scott Galloway, who's previous podcast guest, his data on previous podcast guest, his data on previous podcast guest, his data on loneliness in men and the number of loneliness in men and the number of loneliness in men and the number of friends the average man has compared to friends the average man has compared to friends the average man has compared to the even as recently as the 1990s, it's the even as recently as the 1990s, it's the even as recently as the 1990s, it's just plummeted. You have the whole incel just plummeted. You have the whole incel just plummeted. You have the whole incel thing that's emerged and basically thing that's emerged and basically thing that's emerged and basically as you say, almost everybody has a as you say, almost everybody has a as you say, almost everybody has a diagnosis these days, diagnosis these days, diagnosis these days, but these are the people you're but these are the people you're but these are the people you're reaching, right? When people hurting reaching, right? When people hurting reaching, right? When people hurting people come to church. So when they people come to church. So when they people come to church. So when they come, come, come, you now basically train your church to you now basically train your church to you now basically train your church to listen and a surprising number of the listen and a surprising number of the listen and a surprising number of the challenges, I'm trying to get the right challenges, I'm trying to get the right challenges, I'm trying to get the right language or symptoms language or symptoms language or symptoms are dealt with on the ground

are dealt with on the ground are dealt with on the ground just by having someone who cares. Yeah. just by having someone who cares. Yeah. just by having someone who cares. Yeah. And this is actually you mentioned uh And this is actually you mentioned uh And this is actually you mentioned uh >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> like an old idea. >> like an old idea. >> like an old idea. The mid-1960s The mid-1960s The mid-1960s two psychology researchers two psychology researchers two psychology researchers uh Trueax and Carkhuff kind of like blew uh Trueax and Carkhuff kind of like blew uh Trueax and Carkhuff kind of like blew the profession up by saying our research the profession up by saying our research the profession up by saying our research indicates that well-trained capable indicates that well-trained capable indicates that well-trained capable listeners are frequently just as good as listeners are frequently just as good as listeners are frequently just as good as therapists. therapists. therapists. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And and that that there are exceptions >> And and that that there are exceptions >> And and that that there are exceptions and qualifications and asterisks on and qualifications and asterisks on and qualifications and asterisks on every one of those statements, every one of those statements, every one of those statements, but the fundamental idea being dating but the fundamental idea being dating but the fundamental idea being dating back from research in the 1960s, now back from research in the 1960s, now back from research in the 1960s, now we're 60 years later, is we're 60 years later, is we're 60 years later, is people people people in loving relationship with other people in loving relationship with other people in loving relationship with other people get better. get better. get better. And to me the humerus part, if you take And to me the humerus part, if you take And to me the humerus part, if you take three three very famous sitcoms, three three very famous sitcoms, three three very famous sitcoms, Cheers, Cheers, Cheers, Friends, and the Seinfeld show, Jerry Friends, and the Seinfeld show, Jerry Friends, and the Seinfeld show, Jerry fights Seinfeld show. It all is the same fights Seinfeld show. It all is the same fights Seinfeld show. It all is the same basic storyline.

basic storyline. basic storyline. Like everybody wants to be able to slide Like everybody wants to be able to slide Like everybody wants to be able to slide into another apartment your friend's into another apartment your friend's into another apartment your friend's apartment like Kramer without knocking apartment like Kramer without knocking apartment like Kramer without knocking and like this is my place. and like this is my place. and like this is my place. Everybody wants to open up a a door at a Everybody wants to open up a a door at a Everybody wants to open up a a door at a tavern and have have everyone say call tavern and have have everyone say call tavern and have have everyone say call your name, "Hi, Norm." Yeah. your name, "Hi, Norm." Yeah. your name, "Hi, Norm." Yeah. >> Like we all long for that place to be >> Like we all long for that place to be >> Like we all long for that place to be accepted, to be received, to be accepted, to be received, to be accepted, to be received, to be understood, uh and understood, uh and understood, uh and the difference is the church can offer the difference is the church can offer the difference is the church can offer something that that uh something that that uh something that that uh a a a a a mug of beer can't offer. a a mug of beer can't offer. a a mug of beer can't offer. Like we Like we Like we >> Yes. we >> Yes. we >> Yes. we >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> there is a there is a real solution. >> there is a there is a real solution. >> there is a there is a real solution. Yeah, there is a real solution in in the Yeah, there is a real solution in in the Yeah, there is a real solution in in the presence of human care, in the presence presence of human care, in the presence presence of human care, in the presence of the gospel that that the Holy Spirit of the gospel that that the Holy Spirit of the gospel that that the Holy Spirit has a capacity to change lives has a capacity to change lives has a capacity to change lives and So so if you got a few more minutes, and So so if you got a few more minutes, and So so if you got a few more minutes, I want to I want to take this to another I want to I want to take this to another I want to I want to take this to another level because um level because um level because um this is a this is a this is a a challenge that I'm seeing in the a challenge that I'm seeing in the a challenge that I'm seeing in the culture as well. So if you look at most culture as well. So if you look at most culture as well. So if you look at most church cultures, in some even in their church cultures, in some even in their church cultures, in some even in their small group environment or Sunday school small group environment or Sunday school small group environment or Sunday school environment, you're going to have a environment, you're going to have a environment, you're going to have a teaching environment. In other words, teaching environment. In other words, teaching environment. In other words, let's exposit the meaning of Romans let's exposit the meaning of Romans let's exposit the meaning of Romans chapter 7, blah blah blah, open your chapter 7, blah blah blah, open your chapter 7, blah blah blah, open your Bibles, blah blah blah. And your small Bibles, blah blah blah. And your small Bibles, blah blah blah. And your small group is done, right? So you're not group is done, right? So you're not group is done, right? So you're not exactly talking about that. That has a exactly talking about that. That has a exactly talking about that. That has a role, it's important, we need role, it's important, we need role, it's important, we need discipleship, we need all that stuff, discipleship, we need all that stuff, discipleship, we need all that stuff, but if that's all that's happening, then but if that's all that's happening, then but if that's all that's happening, then people aren't really being heard. The people aren't really being heard. The people aren't really being heard. The other problem I have and and I have other problem I have and and I have other problem I have and and I have another interview coming up on this show

another interview coming up on this show another interview coming up on this show at the end of the year about the art of at the end of the year about the art of at the end of the year about the art of asking questions with J.R. Briggs. I've asking questions with J.R. Briggs. I've asking questions with J.R. Briggs. I've noticed and and this has been a noticed and and this has been a noticed and and this has been a recurring theme with some guests, but recurring theme with some guests, but recurring theme with some guests, but you know, my wife was out recently with you know, my wife was out recently with you know, my wife was out recently with just some people, spent the whole day just some people, spent the whole day just some people, spent the whole day with them and she came back and said with them and she came back and said with them and she came back and said nobody asked me a single question. And nobody asked me a single question. And nobody asked me a single question. And it was one of those things and we've it was one of those things and we've it was one of those things and we've seen this too where it seems that and I seen this too where it seems that and I seen this too where it seems that and I don't know whether social media is doing don't know whether social media is doing don't know whether social media is doing this, we're we're talking across each this, we're we're talking across each this, we're we're talking across each other, at each other or I I think of it other, at each other or I I think of it other, at each other or I I think of it as status updates where I'm just telling as status updates where I'm just telling as status updates where I'm just telling you what I did on the weekend, blah blah you what I did on the weekend, blah blah you what I did on the weekend, blah blah blah, and then you just tell me what's blah, and then you just tell me what's blah, and then you just tell me what's on your mind and then I just give you my on your mind and then I just give you my on your mind and then I just give you my opinion on something else. We're not opinion on something else. We're not opinion on something else. We're not really connecting. And I wonder if we've really connecting. And I wonder if we've really connecting. And I wonder if we've lost the art of conversation. lost the art of conversation. lost the art of conversation. And so is some of that in in the And so is some of that in in the And so is some of that in in the training that you're recommending? Does training that you're recommending? Does training that you're recommending? Does it address any of that? I mean, do you it address any of that? I mean, do you it address any of that? I mean, do you see the same problem? Because you can be see the same problem? Because you can be see the same problem? Because you can be in community but not be seen. You can be in community but not be seen. You can be in community but not be seen. You can be in community and not be heard. You can in community and not be heard. You can in community and not be heard. You can be in community and not feel loved. I be in community and not feel loved. I be in community and not feel loved. I think that's what I'm trying to drive think that's what I'm trying to drive think that's what I'm trying to drive at. What's your what's your at. What's your what's your at. What's your what's your Yeah.

Agreed, emphasized. Yes, there is there Agreed, emphasized. Yes, there is there is no doubt that is no doubt that is no doubt that we are talking about we are talking about we are talking about um the capacity to be present with um the capacity to be present with um the capacity to be present with another another another and have that person who is being and have that person who is being and have that person who is being present have exceptional relational present have exceptional relational present have exceptional relational skills. skills. skills. Like that that knows how to sit and Like that that knows how to sit and Like that that knows how to sit and engage and be present, be focused on engage and be present, be focused on engage and be present, be focused on another person and not have an agenda another person and not have an agenda another person and not have an agenda that that you carry or a a an that that you carry or a a an that that you carry or a a an appointment that you're really needing appointment that you're really needing appointment that you're really needing to focus on next and you're looking at to focus on next and you're looking at to focus on next and you're looking at your watch and you're really on your way your watch and you're really on your way your watch and you're really on your way out. Or you think you're depressed, wait out. Or you think you're depressed, wait out. Or you think you're depressed, wait till you see till you see till you see >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But that's but you're speaking of >> But that's but you're speaking of >> But that's but you're speaking of specifically the people who are in that specifically the people who are in that specifically the people who are in that role of like a formal lay listener. Like role of like a formal lay listener. Like role of like a formal lay listener. Like someone who, you know, when you call the someone who, you know, when you call the someone who, you know, when you call the church office and you're in tears church office and you're in tears church office and you're in tears because your child is going off the because your child is going off the because your child is going off the rails and, you know, you have the rails and, you know, you have the rails and, you know, you have the equivalent of Bonnie. You have the care equivalent of Bonnie. You have the care equivalent of Bonnie. You have the care coordinator who talks to you and says, coordinator who talks to you and says, coordinator who talks to you and says, "You know, I'm going to connect you with "You know, I'm going to connect you with "You know, I'm going to connect you with a lay listener." That's sort of in that a lay listener." That's sort of in that a lay listener." That's sort of in that role of needing to be have that special role of needing to be have that special role of needing to be have that special ability. Right.

ability. Right. ability. Right. >> But one of the things that I think Jim >> But one of the things that I think Jim >> But one of the things that I think Jim would agree with is that we're hoping would agree with is that we're hoping would agree with is that we're hoping that it trickles down to everybody in that it trickles down to everybody in that it trickles down to everybody in the church and you don't necessarily the church and you don't necessarily the church and you don't necessarily it it it >> It becomes a culture. I mean, one of the >> It becomes a culture. I mean, one of the >> It becomes a culture. I mean, one of the one of the examples of this that it one of the examples of this that it one of the examples of this that it still make it still cracks me up years still make it still cracks me up years still make it still cracks me up years later is my pastor when I was in grad later is my pastor when I was in grad later is my pastor when I was in grad school in Boston. school in Boston. school in Boston. And he was he did services in like the And he was he did services in like the And he was he did services in like the school buildings and stuff, you know, so school buildings and stuff, you know, so school buildings and stuff, you know, so students could could have church. And so students could could have church. And so students could could have church. And so there was a office for the church that there was a office for the church that there was a office for the church that there was no church building attached, there was no church building attached, there was no church building attached, right? It's just an office. And one day right? It's just an office. And one day right? It's just an office. And one day the the Massachusetts tax assessor the the Massachusetts tax assessor the the Massachusetts tax assessor showed up cuz you know, they're doing showed up cuz you know, they're doing showed up cuz you know, they're doing snap inspections to see is this a real snap inspections to see is this a real snap inspections to see is this a real church? church? church? And [snorts] uh and he walks in and he And [snorts] uh and he walks in and he And [snorts] uh and he walks in and he goes very suspicious to the pastor and goes very suspicious to the pastor and goes very suspicious to the pastor and he goes, he goes, he goes, "Where's the church?" "Where's the church?" "Where's the church?" And the pastor said, "I was legitimately And the pastor said, "I was legitimately And the pastor said, "I was legitimately confused for a minute." And he said, "I confused for a minute." And he said, "I confused for a minute." And he said, "I answered him, answered him, answered him, 'Well, some of them are at work, 'Well, some of them are at work, 'Well, some of them are at work, and some of them are at school.' And and some of them are at school.' And and some of them are at school.' And he's like, 'The guy was asking about the he's like, 'The guy was asking about the he's like, 'The guy was asking about the building. I was answering them about the building. I was answering them about the building. I was answering them about the people.'" people.'" people.'" And and that's the key is that we are And and that's the key is that we are And and that's the key is that we are all the church and no matter what our all the church and no matter what our all the church and no matter what our area of Some people are going to be far area of Some people are going to be far area of Some people are going to be far more gifted and feel called to this area more gifted and feel called to this area more gifted and feel called to this area of lay listening. Some people are just of lay listening. Some people are just of lay listening. Some people are just going to catch a vision of hmm,

going to catch a vision of hmm, going to catch a vision of hmm, you know, when the guy, you know, who I you know, when the guy, you know, who I you know, when the guy, you know, who I kind of know a little bit is standing kind of know a little bit is standing kind of know a little bit is standing next to me at the next to me at the next to me at the it getting our coffee and I say, "How it getting our coffee and I say, "How it getting our coffee and I say, "How you doing?" And he goes, "So-so." you doing?" And he goes, "So-so." you doing?" And he goes, "So-so." Instead of going, "Uh, have a good Instead of going, "Uh, have a good Instead of going, "Uh, have a good Sunday." [laughter] Sunday." [laughter] Sunday." [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I might say, I might say, I might say, "Tell me about that. What do you mean?" "Tell me about that. What do you mean?" "Tell me about that. What do you mean?" You know, I might just press into that You know, I might just press into that You know, I might just press into that just a little bit. Imagine that just a little bit. Imagine that just a little bit. Imagine that difference. difference. difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I related to take on to take off on I related to take on to take off on I related to take on to take off on something what you just said. something what you just said. something what you just said. I had a I had a I had a a convicting moment a convicting moment a convicting moment in when I realized in when I realized in when I realized my wife and I attend we're empty my wife and I attend we're empty my wife and I attend we're empty nesters. We attend the 8:00 service. nesters. We attend the 8:00 service. nesters. We attend the 8:00 service. We get to church We get to church We get to church at 3 minutes to 8:00. at 3 minutes to 8:00. at 3 minutes to 8:00. Uh we can on the way into the the Uh we can on the way into the the Uh we can on the way into the the sanctuary we pass by the coffee bar. sanctuary we pass by the coffee bar. sanctuary we pass by the coffee bar. They've already poured it for us. They've already poured it for us. They've already poured it for us. And and I can grab my cup of coffee. And and I can grab my cup of coffee. And and I can grab my cup of coffee. Heather often grabs just a bottle of Heather often grabs just a bottle of Heather often grabs just a bottle of water. We walk in. We have our little water. We walk in. We have our little water. We walk in. We have our little place in our in our sanctuary that we place in our in our sanctuary that we place in our in our sanctuary that we that's designated in the first service that's designated in the first service that's designated in the first service as Jim and Heather's place.

as Jim and Heather's place. as Jim and Heather's place. Almost like we we we bought this pew Almost like we we we bought this pew Almost like we we we bought this pew that that that because that's where we always sit. because that's where we always sit. because that's where we always sit. And then at at 9:15 when the service is And then at at 9:15 when the service is And then at at 9:15 when the service is over, we drop our coffee and our empty over, we drop our coffee and our empty over, we drop our coffee and our empty water bottle in the trash receptacle on water bottle in the trash receptacle on water bottle in the trash receptacle on the way out and we are in our car by the way out and we are in our car by the way out and we are in our car by 9:20 going home. 9:20 going home. 9:20 going home. Having not spoken to a single human Having not spoken to a single human Having not spoken to a single human being. being. being. And I'm a licensed psychologist. And I'm a licensed psychologist. And I'm a licensed psychologist. I live in relationships. I live in relationships. I live in relationships. And and like something is notoriously And and like something is notoriously And and like something is notoriously wrong there. wrong there. wrong there. I neither gave nor received. I neither gave nor received. I neither gave nor received. I just went and listened, I just went and listened, I just went and listened, raised my hands, bowed my head. I raised my hands, bowed my head. I raised my hands, bowed my head. I consumed, consumed, consumed, had a cup of coffee, and got out. had a cup of coffee, and got out. had a cup of coffee, and got out. And and even my offering is taken out of And and even my offering is taken out of And and even my offering is taken out of my bank account by by automatic my bank account by by automatic my bank account by by automatic withdrawal so I don't even have to drop withdrawal so I don't even have to drop withdrawal so I don't even have to drop a check in an envelope anymore. a check in an envelope anymore. a check in an envelope anymore. Uh it's [clears throat] Uh it's [clears throat] Uh it's [clears throat] it's it's instant and it's empty.

it's it's instant and it's empty. it's it's instant and it's empty. Uh unless I am engaging with other Uh unless I am engaging with other Uh unless I am engaging with other people, people, people, it's empty. it's empty. it's empty. But we have to build those But we have to build those But we have to build those relationships, right? Like you have to relationships, right? Like you have to relationships, right? Like you have to you have to actually build them. you have to actually build them. you have to actually build them. I agree that there are people with I agree that there are people with I agree that there are people with spiritual gifts. It's like, you know, spiritual gifts. It's like, you know, spiritual gifts. It's like, you know, that evangelism is a spiritual gift. I that evangelism is a spiritual gift. I that evangelism is a spiritual gift. I think everyone has the ability to say, think everyone has the ability to say, think everyone has the ability to say, "Hey, would you come to church with me?" "Hey, would you come to church with me?" "Hey, would you come to church with me?" I think that's like an all skate. But I think that's like an all skate. But I think that's like an all skate. But there are other people I can think of there are other people I can think of there are other people I can think of friends. I think I have, you know, friends. I think I have, you know, friends. I think I have, you know, evangelism isn't the top gift on my evangelism isn't the top gift on my evangelism isn't the top gift on my list. list. list. But like I'm pretty comfortable in those But like I'm pretty comfortable in those But like I'm pretty comfortable in those spiritual conversations. I have friends. spiritual conversations. I have friends. spiritual conversations. I have friends. I mean, she would invite everybody and I mean, she would invite everybody and I mean, she would invite everybody and is very effective at it and never weird is very effective at it and never weird is very effective at it and never weird about it, right? So that's about it, right? So that's about it, right? So that's that's awesome. But I imagine the same that's awesome. But I imagine the same that's awesome. But I imagine the same is true with listening. But at a base is true with listening. But at a base is true with listening. But at a base level, if you can get this into your level, if you can get this into your level, if you can get this into your groups, if you can get this into your groups, if you can get this into your groups, if you can get this into your host team, if you can, you know, change host team, if you can, you know, change host team, if you can, you know, change the culture in your church, just give us the culture in your church, just give us the culture in your church, just give us a a a a snapshot. What does it mean to be a snapshot. What does it mean to be a snapshot. What does it mean to be listened to so that you're not just listened to so that you're not just listened to so that you're not just small talking, you're not just talking small talking, you're not just talking small talking, you're not just talking past each other about this what I did, past each other about this what I did, past each other about this what I did, well that's what I did, and that's what well that's what I did, and that's what well that's what I did, and that's what I did, and then, you know, I did, and then, you know, I did, and then, you know, what does it mean to be listened to?

what does it mean to be listened to? what does it mean to be listened to? What does it mean to have a meaningful What does it mean to have a meaningful What does it mean to have a meaningful connecting conversation that starts the connecting conversation that starts the connecting conversation that starts the journey of healing? journey of healing? journey of healing? It's true kindness. It's true kindness. It's true kindness. Uh this is it is caring about the best Uh this is it is caring about the best Uh this is it is caring about the best interest of the other person. interest of the other person. interest of the other person. And and think about what an incredible And and think about what an incredible And and think about what an incredible opportunity it is for those of us who opportunity it is for those of us who opportunity it is for those of us who follow Jesus follow Jesus follow Jesus to have that vision and have more to have that vision and have more to have that vision and have more permission permission permission of this should be part of our everyday. of this should be part of our everyday. of this should be part of our everyday. Uh one of the things that Jeff, my Uh one of the things that Jeff, my Uh one of the things that Jeff, my husband, said um a number of weeks ago husband, said um a number of weeks ago husband, said um a number of weeks ago when we were talking about this when we were talking about this when we were talking about this initiative and the church cares initiative and the church cares initiative and the church cares is he said, "You know, I he he he he got is he said, "You know, I he he he he got is he said, "You know, I he he he he got saved when he was 18 and it was saved when he was 18 and it was saved when he was 18 and it was those, you know, the late great planet those, you know, the late great planet those, you know, the late great planet Earth kind of era, you know, of like Earth kind of era, you know, of like Earth kind of era, you know, of like Jesus is coming back any second. Jesus is coming back any second. Jesus is coming back any second. >> get raptured. Better get saved. Yeah, >> get raptured. Better get saved. Yeah, >> get raptured. Better get saved. Yeah, let's let's stand on street corners with let's let's stand on street corners with let's let's stand on street corners with tracts." And he's like, "That was just tracts." And he's like, "That was just tracts." And he's like, "That was just so not me. so not me. so not me. Standing on a street corner with a Standing on a street corner with a Standing on a street corner with a tract, that's not the way that I feel tract, that's not the way that I feel tract, that's not the way that I feel like I can engage people in the name of like I can engage people in the name of like I can engage people in the name of Jesus."

Jesus." Jesus." And he said, "But what you're saying is And he said, "But what you're saying is And he said, "But what you're saying is now now now there are people who are hurting, who there are people who are hurting, who there are people who are hurting, who are coming to me are coming to me are coming to me and looking for the hope that I have? and looking for the hope that I have? and looking for the hope that I have? Like, wow, what an incredible Like, wow, what an incredible Like, wow, what an incredible opportunity that is for us to say, 'This opportunity that is for us to say, 'This opportunity that is for us to say, 'This is evangelism. This is discipleship.' is evangelism. This is discipleship.' is evangelism. This is discipleship.' And people are coming to us with those And people are coming to us with those And people are coming to us with those needs." needs." needs." Play this out how this scales because, Play this out how this scales because, Play this out how this scales because, you know, I still have my pastor hat on. you know, I still have my pastor hat on. you know, I still have my pastor hat on. Once a pastor, kind of always a pastor. Once a pastor, kind of always a pastor. Once a pastor, kind of always a pastor. And And And I'm just going to speak for people who I'm just going to speak for people who I'm just going to speak for people who are wired my way, right? I I listen to are wired my way, right? I I listen to are wired my way, right? I I listen to you to somebody for half an hour you to somebody for half an hour you to somebody for half an hour and I do a good job and then where does and I do a good job and then where does and I do a good job and then where does my mind go? Who's next in line? And here my mind go? Who's next in line? And here my mind go? Who's next in line? And here we go again. And here we go again. So we go again. And here we go again. So we go again. And here we go again. So when you think about how this scales, when you think about how this scales, when you think about how this scales, where you've seen it play out, you got where you've seen it play out, you got where you've seen it play out, you got lay listeners, you've got the referral lay listeners, you've got the referral lay listeners, you've got the referral system working where it needs to work, system working where it needs to work, system working where it needs to work, and then you've got that bottom tier of and then you've got that bottom tier of and then you've got that bottom tier of the triangle where you've got hundreds the triangle where you've got hundreds the triangle where you've got hundreds or thousands of people who are just or thousands of people who are just or thousands of people who are just better at listening, better at better at listening, better at better at listening, better at embracing.

embracing. embracing. Is it almost like one-on-one at that Is it almost like one-on-one at that Is it almost like one-on-one at that point where point where point where um you know, you're not overwhelmed as a um you know, you're not overwhelmed as a um you know, you're not overwhelmed as a senior pastor, but in a small group it's senior pastor, but in a small group it's senior pastor, but in a small group it's just like, "Oh yeah, this guy goes for just like, "Oh yeah, this guy goes for just like, "Oh yeah, this guy goes for breakfast with this guy and this woman breakfast with this guy and this woman breakfast with this guy and this woman hangs out with this woman." So it's hangs out with this woman." So it's hangs out with this woman." So it's almost scaled on a one-to-one level. Is almost scaled on a one-to-one level. Is almost scaled on a one-to-one level. Is that what where where this goes that what where where this goes that what where where this goes ultimately? ultimately? ultimately? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. We have we have seen the most effective We have we have seen the most effective We have we have seen the most effective models emerge when it's not coming from models emerge when it's not coming from models emerge when it's not coming from top down the pastor, but it's coming top down the pastor, but it's coming top down the pastor, but it's coming from the ground up where a group of from the ground up where a group of from the ground up where a group of people say to a pastor or to an elder people say to a pastor or to an elder people say to a pastor or to an elder board or a deacon board, "We want to do board or a deacon board, "We want to do board or a deacon board, "We want to do this. Will you will you bless us?" this. Will you will you bless us?" this. Will you will you bless us?" And like, yes, we yeah, we will give you And like, yes, we yeah, we will give you And like, yes, we yeah, we will give you we will announce from the pulpit on a we will announce from the pulpit on a we will announce from the pulpit on a Sunday morning. We will we will endorse Sunday morning. We will we will endorse Sunday morning. We will we will endorse you. Go. you. Go. you. Go. And then And then And then this this organic capacity for one this this organic capacity for one this this organic capacity for one person to love another person. person to love another person. person to love another person. Uh and to to Uh and to to Uh and to to to practice as Paul wrote in Romans, to practice as Paul wrote in Romans, to practice as Paul wrote in Romans, practice hospitality, practice hospitality, practice hospitality, which is not serving a meal.

which is not serving a meal. which is not serving a meal. It's in it's engaging in the life of It's in it's engaging in the life of It's in it's engaging in the life of another and having that person engage in another and having that person engage in another and having that person engage in your life. your life. your life. Like where we are Like where we are Like where we are healing agents to one another. healing agents to one another. healing agents to one another. So this is this is like an infinite So this is this is like an infinite So this is this is like an infinite scale if it's one-on-one. Yes. Yes. Um scale if it's one-on-one. Yes. Yes. Um scale if it's one-on-one. Yes. Yes. Um doesn't matter whether you're 100, you doesn't matter whether you're 100, you doesn't matter whether you're 100, you grow to 1,000. Yes. If if you've got the grow to 1,000. Yes. If if you've got the grow to 1,000. Yes. If if you've got the systems in place so nobody has a line systems in place so nobody has a line systems in place so nobody has a line and even the lay listeners, and even the lay listeners, and even the lay listeners, you know, they have a manageable queue you know, they have a manageable queue you know, they have a manageable queue of people who come to see them. Correct. of people who come to see them. Correct. of people who come to see them. Correct. Yeah. The pastors that that we talked to Yeah. The pastors that that we talked to Yeah. The pastors that that we talked to that had put a system of some kind in that had put a system of some kind in that had put a system of some kind in place, which let me just emphasize place, which let me just emphasize place, which let me just emphasize again, everybody has their own DNA so it again, everybody has their own DNA so it again, everybody has their own DNA so it looked quite different in different looked quite different in different looked quite different in different cases, but that was one thing that they cases, but that was one thing that they cases, but that was one thing that they all said, like 100% of them, which was all said, like 100% of them, which was all said, like 100% of them, which was "Oh my goodness, like the weight that's "Oh my goodness, like the weight that's "Oh my goodness, like the weight that's off my shoulders because our church is off my shoulders because our church is off my shoulders because our church is actually doing the things that we always actually doing the things that we always actually doing the things that we always had sort of hoped and had a vision for had sort of hoped and had a vision for had sort of hoped and had a vision for the church."

the church." the church." Yeah. It just needed something like this Yeah. It just needed something like this Yeah. It just needed something like this in order in order in order to actually make it happen. Yeah. to actually make it happen. Yeah. to actually make it happen. Yeah. The pastor initiates a cultural change. The pastor initiates a cultural change. The pastor initiates a cultural change. The culture the the the program capacity The culture the the the program capacity The culture the the the program capacity is going to be on on the congregation, is going to be on on the congregation, is going to be on on the congregation, but the pastor has to initiate the the but the pastor has to initiate the the but the pastor has to initiate the the creation of a culture. creation of a culture. creation of a culture. And it and to towards that end, what we And it and to towards that end, what we And it and to towards that end, what we do do do in this this project and you can to to in this this project and you can to to in this this project and you can to to to pitch the website, you can find all to pitch the website, you can find all to pitch the website, you can find all this not just in the book, but the this not just in the book, but the this not just in the book, but the resources for how to do it are built out resources for how to do it are built out resources for how to do it are built out in the churchcares.com, all one word. in the churchcares.com, all one word. in the churchcares.com, all one word. It's accessible. It's accessible. It's accessible. >> churchcares.com the church cares Not not >> churchcares.com the church cares Not not >> churchcares.com the church cares Not not church cares. church cares. church cares. >> Yeah, the church cares. Yeah, the church >> Yeah, the church cares. Yeah, the church >> Yeah, the church cares. Yeah, the church Don't forget the the. Um and and that Don't forget the the. Um and and that Don't forget the the. Um and and that takes you to takes you to takes you to what we developed over the past year and what we developed over the past year and what we developed over the past year and a half is the tools necessary for a a half is the tools necessary for a a half is the tools necessary for a church to do it if they want to. church to do it if they want to. church to do it if they want to. And and we listened churches, hear what And and we listened churches, hear what And and we listened churches, hear what they have done, asked if we can borrow they have done, asked if we can borrow they have done, asked if we can borrow what they're already doing. So from I what they're already doing. So from I what they're already doing. So from I think it was Scott St Bible Church, think it was Scott St Bible Church, think it was Scott St Bible Church, their intake format was great. Can we their intake format was great. Can we their intake format was great. Can we use it? Yes. From from a church in use it? Yes. From from a church in use it? Yes. From from a church in Kansas, their grief ministry resources Kansas, their grief ministry resources Kansas, their grief ministry resources were great. Can we use it? Yes. So, so were great. Can we use it? Yes. So, so were great. Can we use it? Yes. So, so we have collected resources that the we have collected resources that the we have collected resources that the church can use on their site how to church can use on their site how to church can use on their site how to organize, how to train, manuals, videos, organize, how to train, manuals, videos, organize, how to train, manuals, videos, etc. It's all there.

etc. It's all there. etc. It's all there. The pastor is the one that's going to The pastor is the one that's going to The pastor is the one that's going to say, "We're going to create a culture of say, "We're going to create a culture of say, "We're going to create a culture of care." And we have some tools to to to care." And we have some tools to to to care." And we have some tools to to to to to dig the new mine as we as we go to to dig the new mine as we as we go to to dig the new mine as we as we go digging for gold. This is our our our digging for gold. This is our our our digging for gold. This is our our our resources to be able to go achieve this resources to be able to go achieve this resources to be able to go achieve this this vision that we have. this vision that we have. this vision that we have. That's great. So, a couple more That's great. So, a couple more That's great. So, a couple more questions for you. Number one, I know questions for you. Number one, I know questions for you. Number one, I know what I'm doing if this gets implemented. what I'm doing if this gets implemented. what I'm doing if this gets implemented. I'm going back to vision casting and I'm going back to vision casting and I'm going back to vision casting and preparing for Sunday sermons and maybe preparing for Sunday sermons and maybe preparing for Sunday sermons and maybe having breakfast with that one person having breakfast with that one person having breakfast with that one person once a month, something like that. Like once a month, something like that. Like once a month, something like that. Like that's pretty easy for me. But there's a that's pretty easy for me. But there's a that's pretty easy for me. But there's a lot of pastors who are wired more like lot of pastors who are wired more like lot of pastors who are wired more like pastors who are saying, "Hey, I don't pastors who are saying, "Hey, I don't pastors who are saying, "Hey, I don't want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to have my inbox blowing up every 3 have my inbox blowing up every 3 have my inbox blowing up every 3 minutes, but I would like minutes, but I would like minutes, but I would like to have some people that I'm connecting to have some people that I'm connecting to have some people that I'm connecting with." What have you found because this with." What have you found because this with." What have you found because this is in beta, you've done the research, is in beta, you've done the research, is in beta, you've done the research, you got some pilot projects. you got some pilot projects. you got some pilot projects. What are the pastors who are more What are the pastors who are more What are the pastors who are more pastorally inclined, how how much do pastorally inclined, how how much do pastorally inclined, how how much do they stay engaged in this? they stay engaged in this? they stay engaged in this? It's fascinating to see how It's fascinating to see how It's fascinating to see how the pastor basically has his own the pastor basically has his own the pastor basically has his own thermostat, right, of what he can handle thermostat, right, of what he can handle thermostat, right, of what he can handle and what he wants to handle. And so, I'm and what he wants to handle. And so, I'm and what he wants to handle. And so, I'm thinking of one pastor thinking of one pastor thinking of one pastor about a about a thousand member church about a about a thousand member church about a about a thousand member church where they started a counseling ministry where they started a counseling ministry where they started a counseling ministry and their particular model was, "Let's and their particular model was, "Let's and their particular model was, "Let's have some lay listeners, but let's also have some lay listeners, but let's also have some lay listeners, but let's also have some actual licensed counselors who have some actual licensed counselors who have some actual licensed counselors who come into the church physically."

come into the church physically." come into the church physically." Um and that was part that was important Um and that was part that was important Um and that was part that was important to them and that's the way they set it to them and that's the way they set it to them and that's the way they set it up. And the pastor told me, he said, up. And the pastor told me, he said, up. And the pastor told me, he said, "The thing that I find so interesting "The thing that I find so interesting "The thing that I find so interesting about this is that I now have these about this is that I now have these about this is that I now have these trusted people that I can refer someone trusted people that I can refer someone trusted people that I can refer someone to to to who actually physically come on site and who actually physically come on site and who actually physically come on site and so, they're now more connected to the so, they're now more connected to the so, they're now more connected to the church. Like it it's more natural for church. Like it it's more natural for church. Like it it's more natural for them to come to church on Sunday, right? them to come to church on Sunday, right? them to come to church on Sunday, right? And he said, "And it also gives me a And he said, "And it also gives me a And he said, "And it also gives me a chance to be the first line of contact chance to be the first line of contact chance to be the first line of contact often where where I I I go into it often where where I I I go into it often where where I I I go into it saying, 'Absolutely, can I just talk to saying, 'Absolutely, can I just talk to saying, 'Absolutely, can I just talk to with you for a few minutes?' And with you for a few minutes?' And with you for a few minutes?' And and he said, 'I get a sense whether this and he said, 'I get a sense whether this and he said, 'I get a sense whether this is somebody that I can help, somebody is somebody that I can help, somebody is somebody that I can help, somebody that needs to be talked to by somebody that needs to be talked to by somebody that needs to be talked to by somebody else, or somebody that I need to refer.' else, or somebody that I need to refer.' else, or somebody that I need to refer.' And he was very much, 'I want to walk And he was very much, 'I want to walk And he was very much, 'I want to walk alongside some of these people, but I alongside some of these people, but I alongside some of these people, but I can't walk alongside this person, this can't walk alongside this person, this can't walk alongside this person, this person, this person. And this allows me person, this person. And this allows me person, this person. And this allows me to identify to identify to identify the people that I can walk alongside.'

the people that I can walk alongside.' the people that I can walk alongside.' So, so basically, you stay as engaged as So, so basically, you stay as engaged as So, so basically, you stay as engaged as you want to be without being you want to be without being you want to be without being overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. That's what overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. That's what overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I've we've heard over and over. It's not I've we've heard over and over. It's not I've we've heard over and over. It's not This is not um This is not um This is not um This is not a magic bullet, right? We This is not a magic bullet, right? We This is not a magic bullet, right? We This is something that every church is This is something that every church is This is something that every church is going to have to kind of grapple with. going to have to kind of grapple with. going to have to kind of grapple with. What are we going to try to do? But what What are we going to try to do? But what What are we going to try to do? But what I hope pastors hear is that the goal is I hope pastors hear is that the goal is I hope pastors hear is that the goal is is to take some of that burden off your is to take some of that burden off your is to take some of that burden off your shoulders and free you up to do the shoulders and free you up to do the shoulders and free you up to do the things that you feel called to do. Yeah. things that you feel called to do. Yeah. things that you feel called to do. Yeah. So, I'm I'm going to be, you know, in my So, I'm I'm going to be, you know, in my So, I'm I'm going to be, you know, in my book on AI referencing the model and the book on AI referencing the model and the book on AI referencing the model and the research that you have as a I think a research that you have as a I think a research that you have as a I think a particularly helpful solution for the particularly helpful solution for the particularly helpful solution for the church, you know, the church's future church, you know, the church's future church, you know, the church's future direction is human connection is sort of direction is human connection is sort of direction is human connection is sort of thesis of thesis of thesis of of my book um in the age of AI. But I of my book um in the age of AI. But I of my book um in the age of AI. But I can and maybe it's too early to say can and maybe it's too early to say can and maybe it's too early to say because this has been like trial because this has been like trial because this has been like trial projects and beta and it's just out in projects and beta and it's just out in projects and beta and it's just out in the world now, the world now, the world now, but I can't help but think that this is but I can't help but think that this is but I can't help but think that this is going to have an impact on evangelism going to have an impact on evangelism going to have an impact on evangelism and church growth. That if the church and church growth. That if the church and church growth. That if the church really becomes this kind of place, really becomes this kind of place, really becomes this kind of place, people are going to come running for a people are going to come running for a people are going to come running for a refuge from the storm. Do you have any refuge from the storm. Do you have any refuge from the storm. Do you have any data on that or any insights on that data on that or any insights on that data on that or any insights on that early? We have emerging data and and uh early? We have emerging data and and uh early? We have emerging data and and uh a lot of end of one stories. One a lot of end of one stories. One a lot of end of one stories. One Anglican pastor uh who was an an initial Anglican pastor uh who was an an initial Anglican pastor uh who was an an initial beta tester,

beta tester, beta tester, church of 125 people, church of 125 people, church of 125 people, and he said, "Over the last 6 months, and he said, "Over the last 6 months, and he said, "Over the last 6 months, I have averaged a call a day. Because we I have averaged a call a day. Because we I have averaged a call a day. Because we have in my log 180 to 200 phone calls of have in my log 180 to 200 phone calls of have in my log 180 to 200 phone calls of people coming calling from outside of my people coming calling from outside of my people coming calling from outside of my church of 125. church of 125. church of 125. Like I need help with Like I need help with Like I need help with my marriage. I need help with my son or my marriage. I need help with my son or my marriage. I need help with my son or daughter who is exhibiting uh daughter who is exhibiting uh daughter who is exhibiting uh addictive behaviors. I need help with addictive behaviors. I need help with addictive behaviors. I need help with and like we are overwhelmed. We're just and like we are overwhelmed. We're just and like we are overwhelmed. We're just a little church. a little church. a little church. And so, that sense of And so, that sense of And so, that sense of mental health is the language of the mental health is the language of the mental health is the language of the 21st century culture. 21st century culture. 21st century culture. And and so, to speak to speak mental And and so, to speak to speak mental And and so, to speak to speak mental health in the church puts you in the health in the church puts you in the health in the church puts you in the language of the society. language of the society. language of the society. And to have solution for care And to have solution for care And to have solution for care for solution for needs, the offering of for solution for needs, the offering of for solution for needs, the offering of care care care is is kind of like is is kind of like is is kind of like the the the the the the food bank in the Great the the the food bank in the Great the the the food bank in the Great Depression.

Depression. Depression. And like we'll just see the line for And like we'll just see the line for And like we'll just see the line for free bread come to church. free bread come to church. free bread come to church. And and and that's the And and and that's the And and and that's the that's uh that's uh that's uh Ed Stetzer is saying mental health Ed Stetzer is saying mental health Ed Stetzer is saying mental health ministry is the evangelism method of the ministry is the evangelism method of the ministry is the evangelism method of the 21st century. Like 21st century. Like 21st century. Like Shanti, I want to ask you too. You had Shanti, I want to ask you too. You had Shanti, I want to ask you too. You had said, you know, in in you had seen said, you know, in in you had seen said, you know, in in you had seen people people people who, you know, maybe don't need who, you know, maybe don't need who, you know, maybe don't need medication right away and don't perhaps medication right away and don't perhaps medication right away and don't perhaps need to see a trained clinical need to see a trained clinical need to see a trained clinical psychologist, psychiatrist. psychologist, psychiatrist. psychologist, psychiatrist. Kind of after doing like engaging in Kind of after doing like engaging in Kind of after doing like engaging in what we've been talking about, say, "You what we've been talking about, say, "You what we've been talking about, say, "You know, you can pull me off the list for know, you can pull me off the list for know, you can pull me off the list for now. Maybe I'll go back on in a little now. Maybe I'll go back on in a little now. Maybe I'll go back on in a little bit, but you can pull me off the wait bit, but you can pull me off the wait bit, but you can pull me off the wait list to go see a specialist." Do you list to go see a specialist." Do you list to go see a specialist." Do you have any idea, Shanti, have any idea, Shanti, have any idea, Shanti, what percentage of the mental health what percentage of the mental health what percentage of the mental health issues that the nation is facing issues that the nation is facing issues that the nation is facing could be, could be, could be, you know, addressed or potentially dealt you know, addressed or potentially dealt you know, addressed or potentially dealt with through this base level of just with through this base level of just with through this base level of just listening listening listening without specialized care? I'm going to without specialized care? I'm going to without specialized care? I'm going to make every clinical psychologist like my make every clinical psychologist like my make every clinical psychologist like my co-author here crazy by saying this, but co-author here crazy by saying this, but co-author here crazy by saying this, but I think 100% I think 100% I think 100% of issues have some of issues have some of issues have some need of listening.

need of listening. need of listening. I I don't think that there is any human I I don't think that there is any human I I don't think that there is any human condition for whom having one caring condition for whom having one caring condition for whom having one caring person walk alongside another, person walk alongside another, person walk alongside another, especially with the hope of Jesus, especially with the hope of Jesus, especially with the hope of Jesus, where that wouldn't be helpful. Yeah. where that wouldn't be helpful. Yeah. where that wouldn't be helpful. Yeah. Now, is it going to be a solution for Now, is it going to be a solution for Now, is it going to be a solution for some? For someone with schizophrenia, some? For someone with schizophrenia, some? For someone with schizophrenia, it's probably not going to be the whole it's probably not going to be the whole it's probably not going to be the whole solution. But for the majority of people solution. But for the majority of people solution. But for the majority of people who are lonely, marriage problems, who are lonely, marriage problems, who are lonely, marriage problems, worried about their kids, worried about their kids, worried about their kids, But the person with schizophrenia needs But the person with schizophrenia needs But the person with schizophrenia needs someone to walk alongside, too. someone to walk alongside, too. someone to walk alongside, too. Right? I mean, and and that's and that's Right? I mean, and and that's and that's Right? I mean, and and that's and that's really where there's a a just a paradigm really where there's a a just a paradigm really where there's a a just a paradigm shift. It's just a vision shift of shift. It's just a vision shift of shift. It's just a vision shift of saying, "Oh, you know, for so many saying, "Oh, you know, for so many saying, "Oh, you know, for so many years, we have been years, we have been years, we have been getting increasingly getting increasingly getting increasingly expert and increasingly specialized in expert and increasingly specialized in expert and increasingly specialized in mental and emotional health care and mental and emotional health care and mental and emotional health care and behavioral health care." And that's behavioral health care." And that's behavioral health care." And that's good, right? There's nothing wrong with good, right? There's nothing wrong with good, right? There's nothing wrong with that, but that, but that, but as that has happened, we've been as that has happened, we've been as that has happened, we've been building this wall um in the who knows what they're doing." And what who knows what they're doing." And what we're saying is actually we're saying is actually we're saying is actually no, everybody needs a friend. Everybody no, everybody needs a friend. Everybody no, everybody needs a friend. Everybody needs someone Well, and and needs someone Well, and and needs someone Well, and and specialization leads to fragmentation, specialization leads to fragmentation, specialization leads to fragmentation, right? It fragments us. And that's what right? It fragments us. And that's what right? It fragments us. And that's what we are. We're a very fragmented culture we are. We're a very fragmented culture we are. We're a very fragmented culture right now. I I I had the most right now. I I I had the most right now. I I I had the most fascinating conversation um a number of fascinating conversation um a number of fascinating conversation um a number of months back um as part of a parallel months back um as part of a parallel months back um as part of a parallel research project that I'm doing on uh

research project that I'm doing on uh research project that I'm doing on uh the habits of the most hopeful people. the habits of the most hopeful people. the habits of the most hopeful people. And I was talking to a woman who is And I was talking to a woman who is And I was talking to a woman who is schizophrenic and who this was a her schizophrenic and who this was a her schizophrenic and who this was a her life. Um she's on serious medication. life. Um she's on serious medication. life. Um she's on serious medication. She's got serious mental illness. She's got serious mental illness. She's got serious mental illness. And And And I sat with her for an hour just hearing I sat with her for an hour just hearing I sat with her for an hour just hearing her story, I learned so much from her her story, I learned so much from her her story, I learned so much from her about how she walks through life with about how she walks through life with about how she walks through life with this incredibly difficult situation, but this incredibly difficult situation, but this incredibly difficult situation, but with joy with joy with joy and with trust. And how like how she and with trust. And how like how she and with trust. And how like how she every morning writes a list of, "Here's every morning writes a list of, "Here's every morning writes a list of, "Here's three things that I am going to be three things that I am going to be three things that I am going to be grateful for today." as a way of getting grateful for today." as a way of getting grateful for today." as a way of getting through her day. And and it's not just, through her day. And and it's not just, through her day. And and it's not just, "Hey, I can help these poor people who "Hey, I can help these poor people who "Hey, I can help these poor people who have these mental health issues." And have these mental health issues." And have these mental health issues." And instead, it's like, "No, these are these instead, it's like, "No, these are these instead, it's like, "No, these are these are real relationships, real brother and are real relationships, real brother and are real relationships, real brother and sister in Christ helping one another." Your last question reminded me of a real Your last question reminded me of a real story of one of my closest friends whose story of one of my closest friends whose story of one of my closest friends whose brother uh has a serious um brother uh has a serious um brother uh has a serious um mental health disorder.

mental health disorder. mental health disorder. Related to similar to uh uh, Shanti, Related to similar to uh uh, Shanti, Related to similar to uh uh, Shanti, what how you just described. He was in a what how you just described. He was in a what how you just described. He was in a restaurant with his brother restaurant with his brother restaurant with his brother and and and uh, uh, uh, found first of all, he didn't get found first of all, he didn't get found first of all, he didn't get served. served. served. And second, when he finally got served, And second, when he finally got served, And second, when he finally got served, uh, the the server took the order, uh, the the server took the order, uh, the the server took the order, uh, went right away to the cashier, rang uh, went right away to the cashier, rang uh, went right away to the cashier, rang it up, and left it on the table even it up, and left it on the table even it up, and left it on the table even before the meal came. before the meal came. before the meal came. And he realized as as he was sitting And he realized as as he was sitting And he realized as as he was sitting there, there, there, "I'm with my brother who is offensive "I'm with my brother who is offensive "I'm with my brother who is offensive just by his image. People don't like just by his image. People don't like just by his image. People don't like him." him." him." And And And and and and if this is not a way to even increase if this is not a way to even increase if this is not a way to even increase his life to spare his life to spare his life to spare because people don't understand or like because people don't understand or like because people don't understand or like him, no one wants to be in his presence. him, no one wants to be in his presence. him, no one wants to be in his presence. And I am because I'm his brother, but And I am because I'm his brother, but And I am because I'm his brother, but nobody else cares for him, and they want nobody else cares for him, and they want nobody else cares for him, and they want him to disappear.

him to disappear. him to disappear. And there's a there's a population, all And there's a there's a population, all And there's a there's a population, all of us even not just of us even not just of us even not just the the truly visually gruesome, but all the the truly visually gruesome, but all the the truly visually gruesome, but all of us feel that at different times. of us feel that at different times. of us feel that at different times. I I I don't know how to connect with I I I don't know how to connect with I I I don't know how to connect with this story. It's too gruesome for me to this story. It's too gruesome for me to this story. It's too gruesome for me to share. No one will understand. I am share. No one will understand. I am share. No one will understand. I am indeed alone here. indeed alone here. indeed alone here. And and that is the the message that the And and that is the the message that the And and that is the the message that the church has presented from the very church has presented from the very church has presented from the very beginning. beginning. beginning. Come here and park. Come here and park. Come here and park. This is where you belong. This is where you belong. This is where you belong. And so we're trying to create a a a And so we're trying to create a a a And so we're trying to create a a a network where that actually can happen. network where that actually can happen. network where that actually can happen. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] Uh, with a set of skills that people Uh, with a set of skills that people Uh, with a set of skills that people have to have in order for it to happen. have to have in order for it to happen. have to have in order for it to happen. It's not going to happen just because It's not going to happen just because It's not going to happen just because we're Christian. we're Christian. we're Christian. It's because we're capable of doing It's because we're capable of doing It's because we're capable of doing something and we know something and we know something and we know we have resources to be able to equip us we have resources to be able to equip us we have resources to be able to equip us for the complexity that's going to show for the complexity that's going to show for the complexity that's going to show up at our church. up at our church. up at our church. We and and we thought through and we We and and we thought through and we We and and we thought through and we have multiple brains on problems that have multiple brains on problems that have multiple brains on problems that emerge because emerge because emerge because uh, everyone is different and and it's uh, everyone is different and and it's uh, everyone is different and and it's not an easy care. It's hard to care for not an easy care. It's hard to care for not an easy care. It's hard to care for people.

people. people. Uh, Uh, Uh, it's hard, which requires us to give it's hard, which requires us to give it's hard, which requires us to give attention, regardless to to direct attention, regardless to to direct attention, regardless to to direct resources, and to think, and to plan, resources, and to think, and to plan, resources, and to think, and to plan, and to prepare, and implement. Shanti. Shanti. I just I really want to speak directly I just I really want to speak directly I just I really want to speak directly to the pastor and say thank you. to the pastor and say thank you. to the pastor and say thank you. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. The pastors out there, you are leading The pastors out there, you are leading The pastors out there, you are leading the body of Christ, the body of Christ, the body of Christ, and nobody other than other pastors, and and nobody other than other pastors, and and nobody other than other pastors, and people like Carey, people like Carey, people like Carey, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> get what your life is like. I know we >> get what your life is like. I know we >> get what your life is like. I know we don't. Um, but we want to say thank you don't. Um, but we want to say thank you don't. Um, but we want to say thank you because we see little glimpses of because we see little glimpses of because we see little glimpses of what you carry every day, and this whole what you carry every day, and this whole what you carry every day, and this whole project project project is made possible because a major and is made possible because a major and is made possible because a major and actually it's it's pretty emotional, a actually it's it's pretty emotional, a actually it's it's pretty emotional, a major donor major donor major donor who has had family issues in this area, who has had family issues in this area, who has had family issues in this area, who loves the local church, stepped who loves the local church, stepped who loves the local church, stepped forward and said, "We want to forward and said, "We want to forward and said, "We want to be able to create all these resources be able to create all these resources be able to create all these resources for free for free for free for the local church because of all that for the local church because of all that for the local church because of all that you do.

you do. you do. And um, and give the church a chance to And um, and give the church a chance to And um, and give the church a chance to be the hero be the hero be the hero in this cultural moment that we're in. in this cultural moment that we're in. in this cultural moment that we're in. And so it's just this is from us to you And so it's just this is from us to you And so it's just this is from us to you saying thank you for what you do, and saying thank you for what you do, and saying thank you for what you do, and everything that we have is yours." everything that we have is yours." everything that we have is yours." That's amazing. So the website is the That's amazing. So the website is the That's amazing. So the website is the churchcares.com? churchcares.com? churchcares.com? thechurchcares.com thechurchcares.com thechurchcares.com There's a really specific tool that I'm There's a really specific tool that I'm There's a really specific tool that I'm going to suggest any pastor, any going to suggest any pastor, any going to suggest any pastor, any potential person who says maybe I should potential person who says maybe I should potential person who says maybe I should think about think about think about offering to explore this. It's called offering to explore this. It's called offering to explore this. It's called the kit. the kit. the kit. And if you go to the join us page on the And if you go to the join us page on the And if you go to the join us page on the churchcares.com, you can sign up to get churchcares.com, you can sign up to get churchcares.com, you can sign up to get the kit, and it's just it's like all the the kit, and it's just it's like all the the kit, and it's just it's like all the stuff that Jim was talking about, you stuff that Jim was talking about, you stuff that Jim was talking about, you know, from this church and that church, know, from this church and that church, know, from this church and that church, and everybody needs an intake form, and and everybody needs an intake form, and and everybody needs an intake form, and everybody needs a a this, you know, a everybody needs a a this, you know, a everybody needs a a this, you know, a screening for depression, and every you screening for depression, and every you screening for depression, and every you know, So this is like all of the forms. know, So this is like all of the forms. know, So this is like all of the forms. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. >> Yeah. It's just it's just for you to >> Yeah. It's just it's just for you to >> Yeah. It's just it's just for you to look through, take, and adapt what would look through, take, and adapt what would look through, take, and adapt what would make it work for you. And the book is make it work for you. And the book is make it work for you. And the book is called When Hurting People Come to called When Hurting People Come to called When Hurting People Come to Church. So, Church. So, Church. So, I really appreciate that. This has been I really appreciate that. This has been I really appreciate that. This has been super super helpful. I don't know why super super helpful. I don't know why super super helpful. I don't know why this wasn't there 20 years ago, but I'm this wasn't there 20 years ago, but I'm this wasn't there 20 years ago, but I'm so glad it's there now, and I think you, so glad it's there now, and I think you, so glad it's there now, and I think you, uh, uh, uh, lighten the load of a lot of pastors.

lighten the load of a lot of pastors. lighten the load of a lot of pastors. Yes, implementation is going to take Yes, implementation is going to take Yes, implementation is going to take some work, but as this spreads from a some work, but as this spreads from a some work, but as this spreads from a few hundred to a few thousand to tens of few hundred to a few thousand to tens of few hundred to a few thousand to tens of thousands of churches, maybe we'll see thousands of churches, maybe we'll see thousands of churches, maybe we'll see people get healthier, pastors not have people get healthier, pastors not have people get healthier, pastors not have that long line that, you know, we either that long line that, you know, we either that long line that, you know, we either love or dread, and really appreciate all love or dread, and really appreciate all love or dread, and really appreciate all your work in this area. So, thank you your work in this area. So, thank you your work in this area. So, thank you both so much. both so much. both so much. Honored to be here. Thank you, Carey.