Growing & Revitalizing Churches in a Post-Christian Era with Nicky Gumbel and Archie Coates

the church in England to me looks like a the church in England to me looks like a field that's been burnt uh so you look field that's been burnt uh so you look field that's been burnt uh so you look around and you think oh the people go around and you think oh the people go around and you think oh the people go the churches are empty numbers are the churches are empty numbers are the churches are empty numbers are declining it looks like uh it's declining it looks like uh it's declining it looks like uh it's completely dead um and then you look a completely dead um and then you look a completely dead um and then you look a bit closer at a field that's sort of bit closer at a field that's sort of bit closer at a field that's sort of been burnt and you can see little green been burnt and you can see little green been burnt and you can see little green shoots emerging welcome to the K newoff shoots emerging welcome to the K newoff shoots emerging welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube Hey I I leadership podcast on YouTube Hey I I leadership podcast on YouTube Hey I I hope today's episode helps you thrive in hope today's episode helps you thrive in hope today's episode helps you thrive in life and Leadership and if you're new life and Leadership and if you're new life and Leadership and if you're new here if you subscribe you'll never miss here if you subscribe you'll never miss here if you subscribe you'll never miss a great episode like this one I've got a great episode like this one I've got a great episode like this one I've got Nikki Gumble and Archie coats in the Nikki Gumble and Archie coats in the Nikki Gumble and Archie coats in the house both have served as Vicor or we house both have served as Vicor or we house both have served as Vicor or we would say pastor of Holy Trinity Church would say pastor of Holy Trinity Church would say pastor of Holy Trinity Church in downtown London and they're both very in downtown London and they're both very in downtown London and they're both very involved in the alpha movement and involved in the alpha movement and involved in the alpha movement and leadership conference worldwide this leadership conference worldwide this leadership conference worldwide this episode is brought to you by the art of episode is brought to you by the art of episode is brought to you by the art of leadership academy so here's a question leadership academy so here's a question leadership academy so here's a question for you what if you get coaching not for you what if you get coaching not for you what if you get coaching not just from me but from some of the guests just from me but from some of the guests just from me but from some of the guests on this podcast do you know that every on this podcast do you know that every on this podcast do you know that every single month that's exactly what the single month that's exactly what the single month that's exactly what the leaders inside the art of leadership leaders inside the art of leadership leaders inside the art of leadership academy do we hop on a zoom call and we academy do we hop on a zoom call and we academy do we hop on a zoom call and we talk through the challenges that you talk through the challenges that you talk through the challenges that you face so you can learn from me from face so you can learn from me from face so you can learn from me from experts and from each other well on experts and from each other well on experts and from each other well on August 8th of this year Patrick lenion August 8th of this year Patrick lenion August 8th of this year Patrick lenion is joining us as a special guest to help is joining us as a special guest to help is joining us as a special guest to help you leverage your working genius he's you leverage your working genius he's you leverage your working genius he's going to join us live and if you want to going to join us live and if you want to going to join us live and if you want to ask him your question live click the ask him your question live click the ask him your question live click the link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode wherever you're watching or listening or wherever you're watching or listening or wherever you're watching or listening or just go to the artof leadership just go to the artof leadership just go to the artof leadership academy.com and then today's episode is

academy.com and then today's episode is academy.com and then today's episode is also brought to you by compassion so as also brought to you by compassion so as also brought to you by compassion so as a pastor I was really moved to help kids a pastor I was really moved to help kids a pastor I was really moved to help kids around the world my wife and I sponsor around the world my wife and I sponsor around the world my wife and I sponsor some kids but I wanted our church to get some kids but I wanted our church to get some kids but I wanted our church to get involved too to make a difference involved too to make a difference involved too to make a difference globally through the local church and to globally through the local church and to globally through the local church and to do that I trust Compassion International do that I trust Compassion International do that I trust Compassion International to learn more about hosting your own to learn more about hosting your own to learn more about hosting your own Compassion Sunday at your church to get Compassion Sunday at your church to get Compassion Sunday at your church to get everyone involved go to compassion.com everyone involved go to compassion.com everyone involved go to compassion.com carry and now my conversation with Nikki carry and now my conversation with Nikki carry and now my conversation with Nikki dumble and Archie coats well Nikki and dumble and Archie coats well Nikki and dumble and Archie coats well Nikki and Archie welcome to the podcast it's an Archie welcome to the podcast it's an Archie welcome to the podcast it's an absolute Delight to have you both it's absolute Delight to have you both it's absolute Delight to have you both it's great to be with you Carrie yeah thank great to be with you Carrie yeah thank great to be with you Carrie yeah thank you krie and also um I'm a longtime you krie and also um I'm a longtime you krie and also um I'm a longtime listener and uh you've got many many listener and uh you've got many many listener and uh you've got many many fans thousands of fans in uh the UK and fans thousands of fans in uh the UK and fans thousands of fans in uh the UK and in our htb Network we're so grateful to in our htb Network we're so grateful to in our htb Network we're so grateful to you the amount of leaders you say to me you the amount of leaders you say to me you the amount of leaders you say to me have you heard Kerrie interviewing X or have you heard Kerrie interviewing X or have you heard Kerrie interviewing X or Y and so thank you for all you do and Y and so thank you for all you do and Y and so thank you for all you do and the encouragement and the help you are the encouragement and the help you are the encouragement and the help you are to us well it's a joy and it's mutual I to us well it's a joy and it's mutual I to us well it's a joy and it's mutual I have told so many people about Alpha and have told so many people about Alpha and have told so many people about Alpha and you know they're saying how do we reach you know they're saying how do we reach you know they're saying how do we reach on church people I'm like have you tried on church people I'm like have you tried on church people I'm like have you tried Alpha it's good for your people it's Alpha it's good for your people it's Alpha it's good for your people it's great for bringing uh people who are great for bringing uh people who are great for bringing uh people who are Skeptics atheists lapsed Christians um Skeptics atheists lapsed Christians um Skeptics atheists lapsed Christians um showing them the light of Jesus and also showing them the light of Jesus and also showing them the light of Jesus and also I really think you have something going I really think you have something going I really think you have something going on with your churches right now that the on with your churches right now that the on with your churches right now that the rest of us in in in the rest of the rest of us in in in the rest of the rest of us in in in the rest of the world need to pay attention to and I world need to pay attention to and I world need to pay attention to and I think that's kind of where I'd like to think that's kind of where I'd like to think that's kind of where I'd like to start um I'd like to get both of your start um I'd like to get both of your start um I'd like to get both of your takes on this but Nikki maybe we'll

takes on this but Nikki maybe we'll takes on this but Nikki maybe we'll start with you what are the issues that start with you what are the issues that start with you what are the issues that you see facing the church in England you see facing the church in England you see facing the church in England right now there's the Church of England right now there's the Church of England right now there's the Church of England for those who don't know the Anglican for those who don't know the Anglican for those who don't know the Anglican church and then the churches in England church and then the churches in England church and then the churches in England so wider what are the issues facing the so wider what are the issues facing the so wider what are the issues facing the churches in England right now well I churches in England right now well I churches in England right now well I think at one level it's like looking at think at one level it's like looking at think at one level it's like looking at a field that has been burnt you know a field that has been burnt you know a field that has been burnt you know it's all brown and it looks completely it's all brown and it looks completely it's all brown and it looks completely dead and I think as you go around you dead and I think as you go around you dead and I think as you go around you see so many churches closing the see so many churches closing the see so many churches closing the statistics are always coming out saying statistics are always coming out saying statistics are always coming out saying the number of people going to church has the number of people going to church has the number of people going to church has declined etc etc but when you look a bit declined etc etc but when you look a bit declined etc etc but when you look a bit closer at the field you can see little closer at the field you can see little closer at the field you can see little green shoots coming through and that's green shoots coming through and that's green shoots coming through and that's the hope for the future and I would say the hope for the future and I would say the hope for the future and I would say although sort of cultural Christianity although sort of cultural Christianity although sort of cultural Christianity is in Decline and um dying off in a way is in Decline and um dying off in a way is in Decline and um dying off in a way there are the new shoots of Life of there are the new shoots of Life of there are the new shoots of Life of people who have had a profound people who have had a profound people who have had a profound experience of Jesus young people who are experience of Jesus young people who are experience of Jesus young people who are filled with the Holy Spirit excited filled with the Holy Spirit excited filled with the Holy Spirit excited about Jesus and packing out the churches about Jesus and packing out the churches about Jesus and packing out the churches that they attend and we're seeing that that they attend and we're seeing that that they attend and we're seeing that right across our network uh the church I right across our network uh the church I right across our network uh the church I was at last night was one of our Network was at last night was one of our Network was at last night was one of our Network churches packed out in the evening churches packed out in the evening churches packed out in the evening service amazing worship but the people service amazing worship but the people service amazing worship but the people there are not going because it's the there are not going because it's the there are not going because it's the done thing to do to go to church it's done thing to do to go to church it's done thing to do to go to church it's the opposite it takes courage the church the opposite it takes courage the church the opposite it takes courage the church since Constantine uh there it's been since Constantine uh there it's been since Constantine uh there it's been there's been a kind of established there's been a kind of established there's been a kind of established religion religion religion but before that you it was a rebellious but before that you it was a rebellious but before that you it was a rebellious thing to be a Christian and I think in thing to be a Christian and I think in thing to be a Christian and I think in England we're moving back to a to a

England we're moving back to a to a England we're moving back to a to a moment where it's the rebellious thing moment where it's the rebellious thing moment where it's the rebellious thing to you know you you are moving against to you know you you are moving against to you know you you are moving against the culture when you say I follow Jesus the culture when you say I follow Jesus the culture when you say I follow Jesus and many people are actually not and many people are actually not and many people are actually not admitting to their friends that they're admitting to their friends that they're admitting to their friends that they're going to Ala or they're going to church going to Ala or they're going to church going to Ala or they're going to church on Sunday and I think that's really on Sunday and I think that's really on Sunday and I think that's really exciting because the people who are exciting because the people who are exciting because the people who are coming are full of Faith full of the coming are full of Faith full of the coming are full of Faith full of the Holy Spirit and um uh so the I think the Holy Spirit and um uh so the I think the Holy Spirit and um uh so the I think the future for the Church in this country is future for the Church in this country is future for the Church in this country is very promising those green shoots are very promising those green shoots are very promising those green shoots are going to grow and very soon you'll see going to grow and very soon you'll see going to grow and very soon you'll see it the field looks green rather than it the field looks green rather than it the field looks green rather than brown what do you see Archie yeah I brown what do you see Archie yeah I brown what do you see Archie yeah I agree with that I think that I have had agree with that I think that I have had agree with that I think that I have had a young woman on the alpha group that I a young woman on the alpha group that I a young woman on the alpha group that I was leading earlier in the year and she was leading earlier in the year and she was leading earlier in the year and she said she wasn't a church goer or a said she wasn't a church goer or a said she wasn't a church goer or a Christian but she come because she said Christian but she come because she said Christian but she come because she said you know where where where can I meet you know where where where can I meet you know where where where can I meet people in London you know I I meet people in London you know I I meet people in London you know I I meet people either through work or otherwise people either through work or otherwise people either through work or otherwise it's through a dating app I don't want it's through a dating app I don't want it's through a dating app I don't want to meet people out at work outside work to meet people out at work outside work to meet people out at work outside work anymore and I don't want to date at the anymore and I don't want to date at the anymore and I don't want to date at the moment but this is like a group of moment but this is like a group of moment but this is like a group of people who are discussing real things people who are discussing real things people who are discussing real things and she said yeah the trouble is and she said yeah the trouble is and she said yeah the trouble is everything in my life I'm told now is everything in my life I'm told now is everything in my life I'm told now is about self um about self um about self um self-actualization self-actualization self-actualization self-improvement uh the vocabs move to self-improvement uh the vocabs move to self-improvement uh the vocabs move to kind of doing things I rather than we kind of doing things I rather than we kind of doing things I rather than we but she said I I'm a community person but she said I I'm a community person but she said I I'm a community person and but I want Community that's sort of and but I want Community that's sort of and but I want Community that's sort of real and authentic it's not yeah I love real and authentic it's not yeah I love real and authentic it's not yeah I love playing sports I love meeting people but

playing sports I love meeting people but playing sports I love meeting people but I I want to talk about things that I I want to talk about things that I I want to talk about things that matter and I think we're seeing that a matter and I think we're seeing that a matter and I think we're seeing that a lot with young people uh at the moment lot with young people uh at the moment lot with young people uh at the moment and they're interestingly there's a you and they're interestingly there's a you and they're interestingly there's a you the secularization that's happening is the secularization that's happening is the secularization that's happening is affecting the church you know whereas I affecting the church you know whereas I affecting the church you know whereas I think before the church was where people think before the church was where people think before the church was where people look to for Revelation and wisdom I'm look to for Revelation and wisdom I'm look to for Revelation and wisdom I'm not sure that they think in those ways not sure that they think in those ways not sure that they think in those ways anymore but there's something that the anymore but there's something that the anymore but there's something that the church needs to catch up with because church needs to catch up with because church needs to catch up with because there is definitely a kind of search for there is definitely a kind of search for there is definitely a kind of search for spirituality I know you know it's it's spirituality I know you know it's it's spirituality I know you know it's it's interesting to think about the church as interesting to think about the church as interesting to think about the church as Community uh you know that's been Community uh you know that's been Community uh you know that's been something I've been talking about for a something I've been talking about for a something I've been talking about for a couple of years that content used to be couple of years that content used to be couple of years that content used to be unique Community was plentiful now uh unique Community was plentiful now uh unique Community was plentiful now uh content is everywhere but Community is content is everywhere but Community is content is everywhere but Community is so rare are there any like I don't know so rare are there any like I don't know so rare are there any like I don't know exactly how to phrase the question um exactly how to phrase the question um exactly how to phrase the question um but does that bother you in any way that but does that bother you in any way that but does that bother you in any way that people are coming searching for people are coming searching for people are coming searching for community and maybe in the process find community and maybe in the process find community and maybe in the process find God or do you think we'll we'll take all God or do you think we'll we'll take all God or do you think we'll we'll take all takers like do you have a particular takers like do you have a particular takers like do you have a particular thought on the kind of magnet that might thought on the kind of magnet that might thought on the kind of magnet that might be moving into the future because I be moving into the future because I be moving into the future because I think you've you've tapped into a think you've you've tapped into a think you've you've tapped into a cultural Trend that everybody sees I cultural Trend that everybody sees I cultural Trend that everybody sees I mean Scott Galloway previous guest on mean Scott Galloway previous guest on mean Scott Galloway previous guest on this podcast talked about the loneliness this podcast talked about the loneliness this podcast talked about the loneliness of young men yeah um so Community as an of young men yeah um so Community as an of young men yeah um so Community as an entry point what what are your thoughts entry point what what are your thoughts entry point what what are your thoughts on that moving forward well I I think on that moving forward well I I think on that moving forward well I I think there it's a particular kind of there it's a particular kind of there it's a particular kind of community you know it's a community that community you know it's a community that community you know it's a community that they don't you know it's not named on they don't you know it's not named on they don't you know it's not named on the tin but it's an the tin but it's an the tin but it's an authentic loving Christian Community and

authentic loving Christian Community and authentic loving Christian Community and you know is it the Pascal thing that you you know is it the Pascal thing that you you know is it the Pascal thing that you know help people help people to wish know help people help people to wish know help people help people to wish that they what you believe is true and that they what you believe is true and that they what you believe is true and then they want to discover it and I then they want to discover it and I then they want to discover it and I think that again you know go back to think that again you know go back to think that again you know go back to Alpha I think that's the beauty of alpha Alpha I think that's the beauty of alpha Alpha I think that's the beauty of alpha that it puts on display what not any that it puts on display what not any that it puts on display what not any Community like but like a loving Jesus Community like but like a loving Jesus Community like but like a loving Jesus centered community and I think it's very centered community and I think it's very centered community and I think it's very very attractive and compelling for very attractive and compelling for very attractive and compelling for people when it's at its people when it's at its people when it's at its best what's your take Nikki I can't best what's your take Nikki I can't best what's your take Nikki I can't improve on improve on improve on that so one of one of the things because that so one of one of the things because that so one of one of the things because you both had several decades in church you both had several decades in church you both had several decades in church leadership but I think in many ways leadership but I think in many ways leadership but I think in many ways America and most of the audience that America and most of the audience that America and most of the audience that listens to this show is in America listens to this show is in America listens to this show is in America although we are so blessed to have a although we are so blessed to have a although we are so blessed to have a British and and Global and Canadian British and and Global and Canadian British and and Global and Canadian Australia New Zealand Etc European Australia New Zealand Etc European Australia New Zealand Etc European audience as well but I think America is audience as well but I think America is audience as well but I think America is really in really in really in particular wrestling with seeing particular wrestling with seeing particular wrestling with seeing Christianity just decline in culture and Christianity just decline in culture and Christianity just decline in culture and there's a variety of reactions to it so there's a variety of reactions to it so there's a variety of reactions to it so I would love for both of you and maybe I would love for both of you and maybe I would love for both of you and maybe we'll start with you Nikki to reflect on we'll start with you Nikki to reflect on we'll start with you Nikki to reflect on because you've watched this happen because you've watched this happen because you've watched this happen literally you became a Christian in the literally you became a Christian in the literally you became a Christian in the 1970s and the church has declined 1970s and the church has declined 1970s and the church has declined massively since then since ever ever massively since then since ever ever massively since then since ever ever since n BEC Christian chur deines there since n BEC Christian chur deines there since n BEC Christian chur deines there you go um what were the emotions that you go um what were the emotions that you go um what were the emotions that either you wrestled with as you saw it either you wrestled with as you saw it either you wrestled with as you saw it decline more and more every decade or

decline more and more every decade or decline more and more every decade or what were some of the the what were some of the the what were some of the the reactions that the church had maybe both reactions that the church had maybe both reactions that the church had maybe both helpful and unhelpful as Christianity helpful and unhelpful as Christianity helpful and unhelpful as Christianity lost its place in lost its place in lost its place in Britain well I mean I guess I've been Britain well I mean I guess I've been Britain well I mean I guess I've been very blessed because um actually we've very blessed because um actually we've very blessed because um actually we've seen the verse uh at HTV we've seen the seen the verse uh at HTV we've seen the seen the verse uh at HTV we've seen the church growing we've seen now 180 Church church growing we've seen now 180 Church church growing we've seen now 180 Church fluence from HTV we've seen uh just fluence from HTV we've seen uh just fluence from HTV we've seen uh just amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit um amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit um amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit um on the church and alha of course on the church and alha of course on the church and alha of course operates globally and whereas the church operates globally and whereas the church operates globally and whereas the church in Europe has been in Decline uh the in Europe has been in Decline uh the in Europe has been in Decline uh the church is moving East and church is moving East and church is moving East and South Africa uh the the beginning of the South Africa uh the the beginning of the South Africa uh the the beginning of the 19 1900 there were 4 million Christians 19 1900 there were 4 million Christians 19 1900 there were 4 million Christians in Africa by the end of the century 360 in Africa by the end of the century 360 in Africa by the end of the century 360 million and I suspect it's closer to million and I suspect it's closer to million and I suspect it's closer to half a billion now half a billion now half a billion now so China could now be the largest so China could now be the largest so China could now be the largest Christian country in the world somewhere Christian country in the world somewhere Christian country in the world somewhere between 300 million Christians in China between 300 million Christians in China between 300 million Christians in China alone so uh alone so uh alone so uh I because the ministry has been so I because the ministry has been so I because the ministry has been so Global and we've traveled for the last Global and we've traveled for the last Global and we've traveled for the last 30 years we see so much growth but we do 30 years we see so much growth but we do 30 years we see so much growth but we do realize that there is a challenge in realize that there is a challenge in realize that there is a challenge in Europe and increasingly also in the US Europe and increasingly also in the US Europe and increasingly also in the US um but generally speaking that the the um but generally speaking that the the um but generally speaking that the the church around the globe is growing at at church around the globe is growing at at church around the globe is growing at at a phenomenal rate probably as fast as

a phenomenal rate probably as fast as a phenomenal rate probably as fast as ever yeah and I I see that as absolutely ever yeah and I I see that as absolutely ever yeah and I I see that as absolutely true but I'm curious like when you look true but I'm curious like when you look true but I'm curious like when you look at maybe because you're right htb and at maybe because you're right htb and at maybe because you're right htb and the associate churches have been the the associate churches have been the the associate churches have been the counterculture over the last number of counterculture over the last number of counterculture over the last number of decades in England you been growing but decades in England you been growing but decades in England you been growing but you must have colleagues people you went you must have colleagues people you went you must have colleagues people you went to Seminary with uh friends in the to Seminary with uh friends in the to Seminary with uh friends in the church who have had that General church who have had that General church who have had that General experience of Decline and I'm just experience of Decline and I'm just experience of Decline and I'm just wondering if there are any wondering if there are any wondering if there are any observations about what happens to observations about what happens to observations about what happens to leaders emotionally if in particular leaders emotionally if in particular leaders emotionally if in particular their church is in Decline what have you their church is in Decline what have you their church is in Decline what have you seen I think that when you look at the seen I think that when you look at the seen I think that when you look at the macro level of ministry it can be at macro level of ministry it can be at macro level of ministry it can be at times discouraging you know we're in a times discouraging you know we're in a times discouraging you know we're in a an Institutional church that is an Institutional church that is an Institutional church that is declining but I think as a pastor one's declining but I think as a pastor one's declining but I think as a pastor one's always trying to look at the micro level always trying to look at the micro level always trying to look at the micro level you know last night at church I was you know last night at church I was you know last night at church I was privileged enough to pray for somebody I privileged enough to pray for somebody I privileged enough to pray for somebody I could see he was a young man and he was could see he was a young man and he was could see he was a young man and he was I could see the Holy Spirit on him I I could see the Holy Spirit on him I I could see the Holy Spirit on him I just went and put a hand on his shoulder just went and put a hand on his shoulder just went and put a hand on his shoulder and prayed I didn't know what was going and prayed I didn't know what was going and prayed I didn't know what was going on and afterwards I just caught up with on and afterwards I just caught up with on and afterwards I just caught up with him and sent you know how what what do him and sent you know how what what do him and sent you know how what what do you think he said I he said I've never you think he said I he said I've never you think he said I he said I've never been filled with the spirit like that he been filled with the spirit like that he been filled with the spirit like that he said I it was he was he was he was like said I it was he was he was he was like said I it was he was he was he was like um tearing up or weeping he said but um tearing up or weeping he said but um tearing up or weeping he said but they were happy tears and you know I they were happy tears and you know I they were happy tears and you know I don't know whether the last week has don't know whether the last week has don't know whether the last week has been a great week for me but that was a been a great week for me but that was a been a great week for me but that was a great moment and so I think the I don't

great moment and so I think the I don't great moment and so I think the I don't know the trick isn't it always is to try know the trick isn't it always is to try know the trick isn't it always is to try and look at the and look at the and look at the Grassroots um not to be unaware of Grassroots um not to be unaware of Grassroots um not to be unaware of what's happening on the macro level but what's happening on the macro level but what's happening on the macro level but to find encouragement in in the to find encouragement in in the to find encouragement in in the day-to-day pastoring as well day-to-day pastoring as well day-to-day pastoring as well yeah I guess uh one more one more um yeah I guess uh one more one more um yeah I guess uh one more one more um thought on that before we move on but I thought on that before we move on but I thought on that before we move on but I think when you look at what's happening think when you look at what's happening think when you look at what's happening in a culture where the church is in a culture where the church is in a culture where the church is declining there are helpful responses declining there are helpful responses declining there are helpful responses and unhelpful responses in other words and unhelpful responses in other words and unhelpful responses in other words things that pastors will try that are things that pastors will try that are things that pastors will try that are genuinely helpful and help for rebirth genuinely helpful and help for rebirth genuinely helpful and help for rebirth and renewal so much of what you've and renewal so much of what you've and renewal so much of what you've experienced at htb and in your network experienced at htb and in your network experienced at htb and in your network and through Alpha and then there are and through Alpha and then there are and through Alpha and then there are some unhelpful things can you think of some unhelpful things can you think of some unhelpful things can you think of some unhelpful things that you've seen some unhelpful things that you've seen some unhelpful things that you've seen during your time in leadership that during your time in leadership that during your time in leadership that maybe have turned out to be false leads maybe have turned out to be false leads maybe have turned out to be false leads or uh just led to you know away from or uh just led to you know away from or uh just led to you know away from what people should be doing rather than what people should be doing rather than what people should be doing rather than toward what leaders should be doing any toward what leaders should be doing any toward what leaders should be doing any thoughts on thoughts on thoughts on that but I think we have to walk a tight that but I think we have to walk a tight that but I think we have to walk a tight rope between naive optimism and cynical rope between naive optimism and cynical rope between naive optimism and cynical pessimism naive optimism says you know pessimism naive optimism says you know pessimism naive optimism says you know it's all going to be all right there's it's all going to be all right there's it's all going to be all right there's going to be Revival tomorrow and going to be Revival tomorrow and going to be Revival tomorrow and millions of people are um and I didn't millions of people are um and I didn't millions of people are um and I didn't think Jesus was ever naively optimistic think Jesus was ever naively optimistic think Jesus was ever naively optimistic he was realistic um but on the other he was realistic um but on the other he was realistic um but on the other hand as John sto the um the great um hand as John sto the um the great um hand as John sto the um the great um Church leader and theologian said

Church leader and theologian said Church leader and theologian said cynical cynical pessimism is is a cynical cynical pessimism is is a cynical cynical pessimism is is a terrible sin uh you know we terrible sin uh you know we terrible sin uh you know we have the the bishop Les nuban was asked have the the bishop Les nuban was asked have the the bishop Les nuban was asked are you an optimist or a pessimist he are you an optimist or a pessimist he are you an optimist or a pessimist he said neither Jesus Jesus Christ is risen said neither Jesus Jesus Christ is risen said neither Jesus Jesus Christ is risen from the dead and I think we have to from the dead and I think we have to from the dead and I think we have to just keep that at the Forefront of our just keep that at the Forefront of our just keep that at the Forefront of our minds Jesus Christ is risen from the minds Jesus Christ is risen from the minds Jesus Christ is risen from the dead um Jesus is Alive there is hope uh dead um Jesus is Alive there is hope uh dead um Jesus is Alive there is hope uh there's the possibility of change and there's the possibility of change and there's the possibility of change and therefore we must never sink into a therefore we must never sink into a therefore we must never sink into a cynical pessimism uh that that can cynical pessimism uh that that can cynical pessimism uh that that can happen if if your uh you know life is happen if if your uh you know life is happen if if your uh you know life is tough as K Warren says life is much more tough as K Warren says life is much more tough as K Warren says life is much more difficult than you think it's going to difficult than you think it's going to difficult than you think it's going to be and Leadership is certainly much more be and Leadership is certainly much more be and Leadership is certainly much more diff difficult than you think it's going diff difficult than you think it's going diff difficult than you think it's going to be yeah and and and unless we're to be yeah and and and unless we're to be yeah and and and unless we're careful we get it's it's like tempting careful we get it's it's like tempting careful we get it's it's like tempting to become cynical um and pessimistic and to become cynical um and pessimistic and to become cynical um and pessimistic and we have to avoid that by remembering we have to avoid that by remembering we have to avoid that by remembering that Jesus is Alive and he's risen and that Jesus is Alive and he's risen and that Jesus is Alive and he's risen and he's with us and uh if God is for us who he's with us and uh if God is for us who he's with us and uh if God is for us who can be against can be against can be against us any takes on that yourself Archie in us any takes on that yourself Archie in us any takes on that yourself Archie in what you've seen some helpful SL what you've seen some helpful SL what you've seen some helpful SL unhelpful responses when a culture is unhelpful responses when a culture is unhelpful responses when a culture is changing that rapidly changing that rapidly changing that rapidly I think that uh we're called to be uh I think that uh we're called to be uh I think that uh we're called to be uh Shepherds under you know the overseeing Shepherds under you know the overseeing Shepherds under you know the overseeing shepherd Jesus and uh what that speaks shepherd Jesus and uh what that speaks shepherd Jesus and uh what that speaks to me is of some of my worst moments of to me is of some of my worst moments of to me is of some of my worst moments of leading or Ministry being when I've leading or Ministry being when I've leading or Ministry being when I've tried to push people too hard uh and you

tried to push people too hard uh and you tried to push people too hard uh and you know I think they and I noticed know I think they and I noticed know I think they and I noticed particularly at the moment because it particularly at the moment because it particularly at the moment because it seems to me that leadership is seems to me that leadership is seems to me that leadership is functional and relational you know functional and relational you know functional and relational you know functional is sort of what we want to functional is sort of what we want to functional is sort of what we want to happen and relational is perhaps the way happen and relational is perhaps the way happen and relational is perhaps the way in which we do it and just now where I in which we do it and just now where I in which we do it and just now where I think I noticed say um a deeper think I noticed say um a deeper think I noticed say um a deeper distrust of leadership and a higher distrust of leadership and a higher distrust of leadership and a higher level of scrutiny in leadership the level of scrutiny in leadership the level of scrutiny in leadership the relational um intelligence and EQ is the relational um intelligence and EQ is the relational um intelligence and EQ is the way in which you lead I think is way in which you lead I think is way in which you lead I think is becoming um more and more important than becoming um more and more important than becoming um more and more important than just what you do and I think that's just what you do and I think that's just what you do and I think that's putting um actually I think some leaders putting um actually I think some leaders putting um actually I think some leaders are finding the pressure of that uh are finding the pressure of that uh are finding the pressure of that uh quite quite hard but because it's kind quite quite hard but because it's kind quite quite hard but because it's kind of what we might call informal power of what we might call informal power of what we might call informal power it's it's relational and it's it's not it's it's relational and it's it's not it's it's relational and it's it's not coercive or manipulative and I think coercive or manipulative and I think coercive or manipulative and I think that is U something that's really that is U something that's really that is U something that's really important at the moment and I think um important at the moment and I think um important at the moment and I think um for some it might mean going a little for some it might mean going a little for some it might mean going a little slower than they would like to see the slower than they would like to see the slower than they would like to see the outcomes that they're praying for outcomes that they're praying for outcomes that they're praying for I hear you I hear you uh affirming that I hear you I hear you uh affirming that I hear you I hear you uh affirming that Nikki anything you want to add to that Nikki anything you want to add to that Nikki anything you want to add to that to the emotional quoti that's such an to the emotional quoti that's such an to the emotional quoti that's such an interesting Insight yeah I'm sure that's interesting Insight yeah I'm sure that's interesting Insight yeah I'm sure that's right so I want to shift gears a little right so I want to shift gears a little right so I want to shift gears a little bit Nikki and R2 we're going to spend bit Nikki and R2 we're going to spend bit Nikki and R2 we're going to spend some time talking about this today but some time talking about this today but some time talking about this today but you have recently undergone a transition

you have recently undergone a transition you have recently undergone a transition from being the Vicor or senior pastor from being the Vicor or senior pastor from being the Vicor or senior pastor Nikki at Holy Trinity Brompton for over Nikki at Holy Trinity Brompton for over Nikki at Holy Trinity Brompton for over 20 years I guess I for got my time line 20 years I guess I for got my time line 20 years I guess I for got my time line right and now Archie is the new vicer right and now Archie is the new vicer right and now Archie is the new vicer and you've moved into a new season of and you've moved into a new season of and you've moved into a new season of life and I'd love to know because I get life and I'd love to know because I get life and I'd love to know because I get this question all the time and this is this question all the time and this is this question all the time and this is something I went through well nine years something I went through well nine years something I went through well nine years ago I guess when I stepped out of the ago I guess when I stepped out of the ago I guess when I stepped out of the lead role but how did you and Pippa your lead role but how did you and Pippa your lead role but how did you and Pippa your wife sense that it was maybe time to wife sense that it was maybe time to wife sense that it was maybe time to make way for new leadership and to step make way for new leadership and to step make way for new leadership and to step into a new season of your life like what into a new season of your life like what into a new season of your life like what was going on inside you to say I think was going on inside you to say I think was going on inside you to say I think this is the time Nikki what what about this is the time Nikki what what about this is the time Nikki what what about you well I I've lived in the Parish of you well I I've lived in the Parish of you well I I've lived in the Parish of htb uh since birth um wow um and um htb uh since birth um wow um and um htb uh since birth um wow um and um although I didn't attend the church although I didn't attend the church although I didn't attend the church until I encountered Jesus at the age of until I encountered Jesus at the age of until I encountered Jesus at the age of 18 uh I started attending it regularly 18 uh I started attending it regularly 18 uh I started attending it regularly um at the age of 21 as and became a lay um at the age of 21 as and became a lay um at the age of 21 as and became a lay leader there for um for almost 10 years leader there for um for almost 10 years leader there for um for almost 10 years and then um or maybe maybe less than and then um or maybe maybe less than and then um or maybe maybe less than that but but uh I was uh I became a an that but but uh I was uh I became a an that but but uh I was uh I became a an assistant pastor I was ordained 1986 and assistant pastor I was ordained 1986 and assistant pastor I was ordained 1986 and was assistant to Sandy for 19 years and was assistant to Sandy for 19 years and was assistant to Sandy for 19 years and then vica for 17 years so in total it then vica for 17 years so in total it then vica for 17 years so in total it was nearly 40 Years of involvement um in was nearly 40 Years of involvement um in was nearly 40 Years of involvement um in in the church and of course um we love in the church and of course um we love in the church and of course um we love we love the church it was and it was a we love the church it was and it was a we love the church it was and it was a an amazing place to to be um I think

an amazing place to to be um I think an amazing place to to be um I think that what happened was that a couple of that what happened was that a couple of that what happened was that a couple of years ago maybe yeah maybe it's like years ago maybe yeah maybe it's like years ago maybe yeah maybe it's like three years ago now um I was completely three years ago now um I was completely three years ago now um I was completely captivated by the 2033 Vision um which I captivated by the 2033 Vision um which I captivated by the 2033 Vision um which I I heard various people speaking about I heard various people speaking about I heard various people speaking about from um Rick Warren to the Catholics from um Rick Warren to the Catholics from um Rick Warren to the Catholics that um uh you know the 17th of April that um uh you know the 17th of April that um uh you know the 17th of April 2033 is the 2,000th anniversary of the 2033 is the 2,000th anniversary of the 2033 is the 2,000th anniversary of the Resurrection Bible translators are Resurrection Bible translators are Resurrection Bible translators are working on in the New Testament into working on in the New Testament into working on in the New Testament into 99.96% of the language of the world Rick 99.96% of the language of the world Rick 99.96% of the language of the world Rick Warren's working on a Bible a Believer a Warren's working on a Bible a Believer a Warren's working on a Bible a Believer a body of Christ in every Community the body of Christ in every Community the body of Christ in every Community the Catholic communities 79 of them we met Catholic communities 79 of them we met Catholic communities 79 of them we met with in the Vatican working on and I with in the Vatican working on and I with in the Vatican working on and I just felt I really want to focus now on just felt I really want to focus now on just felt I really want to focus now on Alpha and I really want to focus on um Alpha and I really want to focus on um Alpha and I really want to focus on um ensuring that by that date everyone on ensuring that by that date everyone on ensuring that by that date everyone on the planet has had an opportunity to do the planet has had an opportunity to do the planet has had an opportunity to do alpha and I knew that I couldn't do that alpha and I knew that I couldn't do that alpha and I knew that I couldn't do that um while continuing in the Ro at um htb um while continuing in the Ro at um htb um while continuing in the Ro at um htb I I I I hadn't given Alpha sufficient I I I I hadn't given Alpha sufficient I I I I hadn't given Alpha sufficient headp space uh in the last 17 years headp space uh in the last 17 years headp space uh in the last 17 years which before I was giving it you know which before I was giving it you know which before I was giving it you know every day that was what I was waking up every day that was what I was waking up every day that was what I was waking up and thinking about and I hadn't done and thinking about and I hadn't done and thinking about and I hadn't done that for a long time and I knew I needed that for a long time and I knew I needed that for a long time and I knew I needed to refocus on Alpha fulltime and focus to refocus on Alpha fulltime and focus to refocus on Alpha fulltime and focus on that vision and at the same time I on that vision and at the same time I on that vision and at the same time I felt it was um the moment I mean my son

felt it was um the moment I mean my son felt it was um the moment I mean my son Johnny who's also a via um has often Johnny who's also a via um has often Johnny who's also a via um has often said to me um using a a a rugby an said to me um using a a a rugby an said to me um using a a a rugby an analogy um pass before you're analogy um pass before you're analogy um pass before you're tackled don't don't wait until somebody's don't don't wait until somebody's telling you it's time to go fast before telling you it's time to go fast before telling you it's time to go fast before you're tackled and so I was aware of you're tackled and so I was aware of you're tackled and so I was aware of that that that and it seemed it it did that that that and it seemed it it did that that that and it seemed it it did need uh you know I felt that was right need uh you know I felt that was right need uh you know I felt that was right and needed to to go to a younger person and needed to to go to a younger person and needed to to go to a younger person who would who would also give eight you who would who would also give eight you who would who would also give eight you know as well as Alpha needed a full-time know as well as Alpha needed a full-time know as well as Alpha needed a full-time a full-time um headp space for someone a full-time um headp space for someone a full-time um headp space for someone htb needed someone who wasn't um htb needed someone who wasn't um htb needed someone who wasn't um distracted by everything else and could distracted by everything else and could distracted by everything else and could really give their attention to to the really give their attention to to the really give their attention to to the judge because it's it's it's a hugely judge because it's it's it's a hugely judge because it's it's it's a hugely demanding role to and it's grown it's demanding role to and it's grown it's demanding role to and it's grown it's everything was growing HTV was growing everything was growing HTV was growing everything was growing HTV was growing theological training was growing the theological training was growing the theological training was growing the network was growing everything was network was growing everything was network was growing everything was growing and it uh so I it just felt like growing and it uh so I it just felt like growing and it uh so I it just felt like the right moment to um to to make a move the right moment to um to to make a move the right moment to um to to make a move I don't know if this happened to you I don't know if this happened to you I don't know if this happened to you Nikki but to a lot of leaders I talked Nikki but to a lot of leaders I talked Nikki but to a lot of leaders I talked to and this happened in my case as well to and this happened in my case as well to and this happened in my case as well uh there came a point toward the end of uh there came a point toward the end of uh there came a point toward the end of my tenure as lead Pastor where certain my tenure as lead Pastor where certain my tenure as lead Pastor where certain things I used to love I didn't love as things I used to love I didn't love as things I used to love I didn't love as much there were parts of the job that I much there were parts of the job that I much there were parts of the job that I really calling I really appreciate and really calling I really appreciate and really calling I really appreciate and other parts that were becoming maybe a

other parts that were becoming maybe a other parts that were becoming maybe a little less enthralling did you have little less enthralling did you have little less enthralling did you have that um or not really you know it's a that um or not really you know it's a that um or not really you know it's a funny thing I used to be a barrister and funny thing I used to be a barrister and funny thing I used to be a barrister and I love being a I love being a I love being a barrister um and then I got ordained and barrister um and then I got ordained and barrister um and then I got ordained and because I love the job more I didn't because I love the job more I didn't because I love the job more I didn't really look back and think um you know I really look back and think um you know I really look back and think um you know I really miss being a barer um and I I really miss being a barer um and I I really miss being a barer um and I I feel the same now uh you know I feel the same now uh you know I feel the same now uh you know I absolutely loved htb I love that job so absolutely loved htb I love that job so absolutely loved htb I love that job so much but now I'm doing something that I much but now I'm doing something that I much but now I'm doing something that I love even more so you know it's kind of love even more so you know it's kind of love even more so you know it's kind of it's I don't look back and think um oh it's I don't look back and think um oh it's I don't look back and think um oh there's a huge hole now um with htb but there's a huge hole now um with htb but there's a huge hole now um with htb but of course there are things you know the of course there are things you know the of course there are things you know the it was an htb is an amazing church it's it was an htb is an amazing church it's it was an htb is an amazing church it's an extraordinary Community um and uh an extraordinary Community um and uh an extraordinary Community um and uh that's that that's um something that that's that that's um something that that's that that's um something that that I I absolutely loved but now we that I I absolutely loved but now we that I I absolutely loved but now we have a different community in a sense have a different community in a sense have a different community in a sense because we're traveling and seeing all because we're traveling and seeing all because we're traveling and seeing all the church plants and the and the alpha the church plants and the and the alpha the church plants and the and the alpha Community around the world uh which is Community around the world uh which is Community around the world uh which is again is an amazing Community it's again is an amazing Community it's again is an amazing Community it's different one um and we miss our friends different one um and we miss our friends different one um and we miss our friends from htb but we were very blessed to from htb but we were very blessed to from htb but we were very blessed to have a different a different Community have a different a different Community have a different a different Community one of the decisions you made uh was to one of the decisions you made uh was to one of the decisions you made uh was to move away from the church and no longer move away from the church and no longer move away from the church and no longer attend to htb I don't know whether attend to htb I don't know whether attend to htb I don't know whether that's forever or a season but I if I that's forever or a season but I if I that's forever or a season but I if I remember the car ride from h TB to your remember the car ride from h TB to your remember the car ride from h TB to your current home Nikki I think it was about

current home Nikki I think it was about current home Nikki I think it was about 20 minutes by cab it's not like right 20 minutes by cab it's not like right 20 minutes by cab it's not like right around the corner and you're part of a around the corner and you're part of a around the corner and you're part of a new church within like when you in Pippa new church within like when you in Pippa new church within like when you in Pippa are in town you attend a different are in town you attend a different are in town you attend a different church was that um can you tell us about church was that um can you tell us about church was that um can you tell us about that decision like why it was made is that decision like why it was made is that decision like why it was made is that just something the Church of that just something the Church of that just something the Church of England does is that something you England does is that something you England does is that something you thought would be healthy or what are the thought would be healthy or what are the thought would be healthy or what are the thoughts behind that I think you our thoughts behind that I think you our thoughts behind that I think you our model has always been Sandy Miller who model has always been Sandy Miller who model has always been Sandy Miller who was my predecessor and um you know I I was my predecessor and um you know I I was my predecessor and um you know I I would beg Sandy to come and get involved would beg Sandy to come and get involved would beg Sandy to come and get involved and do this and do that but he knew that and do this and do that but he knew that and do this and do that but he knew that that that wasn't the right thing um it's that that wasn't the right thing um it's that that wasn't the right thing um it's not you have to give your successor not you have to give your successor not you have to give your successor space to um to be themselves and to not space to um to be themselves and to not space to um to be themselves and to not to have have a have some you know the to have have a have some you know the to have have a have some you know the old Vicor around while you're trying to old Vicor around while you're trying to old Vicor around while you're trying to do your new things and Sandy was so do your new things and Sandy was so do your new things and Sandy was so brilliant about that and I knew that he brilliant about that and I knew that he brilliant about that and I knew that he he never ever if anyone went to him and he never ever if anyone went to him and he never ever if anyone went to him and said oh it was so much better when I'm said oh it was so much better when I'm said oh it was so much better when I'm sure he was he were there were people sure he was he were there were people sure he was he were there were people curing outside his door to tell him curing outside his door to tell him curing outside his door to tell him please come back it's so awful now that please come back it's so awful now that please come back it's so awful now that Nick's there but I knew that he would Nick's there but I knew that he would Nick's there but I knew that he would never let them get you know never listen never let them get you know never listen never let them get you know never listen to that uh or give them any sucker in to that uh or give them any sucker in to that uh or give them any sucker in their complaints um and he and he never their complaints um and he and he never their complaints um and he and he never came to you know he just kept way out of came to you know he just kept way out of came to you know he just kept way out of the way I would sort of try and draw him the way I would sort of try and draw him the way I would sort of try and draw him back in but he was like no you know he back in but he was like no you know he back in but he was like no you know he just didn't didn't come so I I knew that just didn't didn't come so I I knew that just didn't didn't come so I I knew that was and so we go to a church plant at was and so we go to a church plant at was and so we go to a church plant at the end of our our road which um was not

the end of our our road which um was not the end of our our road which um was not exactly a church plant but it's jgo came exactly a church plant but it's jgo came exactly a church plant but it's jgo came from htb with a group from htb and it's from htb with a group from htb and it's from htb with a group from htb and it's it's very much in the um DNA of um HCB it's very much in the um DNA of um HCB it's very much in the um DNA of um HCB the service last night you although it's the service last night you although it's the service last night you although it's slightly it is smaller uh there they've slightly it is smaller uh there they've slightly it is smaller uh there they've it's grown to 700 people the church was it's grown to 700 people the church was it's grown to 700 people the church was packed last night with young people they packed last night with young people they packed last night with young people they are um it feels very similar to being a are um it feels very similar to being a are um it feels very similar to being a at a Sunday service at HTV and I'm at a Sunday service at HTV and I'm at a Sunday service at HTV and I'm loving being involved there we do we are loving being involved there we do we are loving being involved there we do we are involved in it like before we're in a involved in it like before we're in a involved in it like before we're in a small group um we help in a small group small group um we help in a small group small group um we help in a small group um in and we have done the last three um in and we have done the last three um in and we have done the last three courses we did two in our home we did courses we did two in our home we did courses we did two in our home we did one online at kale and now we've done one online at kale and now we've done one online at kale and now we've done this is actually we just finished our this is actually we just finished our this is actually we just finished our third at third at third at HTC and we feel part of that Community HTC and we feel part of that Community HTC and we feel part of that Community where you went last night standing where you went last night standing where you went last night standing outside Church there were so many people outside Church there were so many people outside Church there were so many people piling out who'd been in our office piling out who'd been in our office piling out who'd been in our office groups in the last three terms and um so groups in the last three terms and um so groups in the last three terms and um so it feels like it feels like home it it feels like it feels like home it it feels like it feels like home it really does it feels like but at the really does it feels like but at the really does it feels like but at the same time it doesn't feel we've left the same time it doesn't feel we've left the same time it doesn't feel we've left the htb family because it's part and Arie htb family because it's part and Arie htb family because it's part and Arie kindly invites us to focus and we we get kindly invites us to focus and we we get kindly invites us to focus and we we get to see people there and the leadership to see people there and the leadership to see people there and the leadership conference you know that is run by htb conference you know that is run by htb conference you know that is run by htb really so so we see lot we you know we really so so we see lot we you know we really so so we see lot we you know we feel part of the htb family without feel part of the htb family without feel part of the htb family without going to going to going to htb I I hope I hope a lot of people who htb I I hope I hope a lot of people who htb I I hope I hope a lot of people who are in your position are taking notes are in your position are taking notes are in your position are taking notes right now because there is so much

right now because there is so much right now because there is so much health in what you've said you know that health in what you've said you know that health in what you've said you know that you're stepping out of something but you're stepping out of something but you're stepping out of something but into something you can't just leave into into something you can't just leave into into something you can't just leave into a vacuum but the pull away uh was a vacuum but the pull away uh was a vacuum but the pull away uh was stronger than the PLL two and then stronger than the PLL two and then stronger than the PLL two and then giving your successor space not being giving your successor space not being giving your successor space not being critical uh being involved and plugged critical uh being involved and plugged critical uh being involved and plugged into a local church uh there's so much into a local church uh there's so much into a local church uh there's so much health there and I we're taking notes health there and I we're taking notes health there and I we're taking notes now Argie got the million-dollar now Argie got the million-dollar now Argie got the million-dollar question for you so the question is uh question for you so the question is uh question for you so the question is uh what made you and your wife Sam think what made you and your wife Sam think what made you and your wife Sam think this might possibly be a good idea to this might possibly be a good idea to this might possibly be a good idea to succeed Nikki and Pippa Gumble what were succeed Nikki and Pippa Gumble what were succeed Nikki and Pippa Gumble what were you thinking Archie because you know you thinking Archie because you know you thinking Archie because you know statistically this almost never goes statistically this almost never goes statistically this almost never goes well uh I'm saying that tongue and cheek well uh I'm saying that tongue and cheek well uh I'm saying that tongue and cheek but that is that is a big fear that a but that is that is a big fear that a but that is that is a big fear that a lot of NextGen leaders have when they lot of NextGen leaders have when they lot of NextGen leaders have when they follow someone who has had a massive follow someone who has had a massive follow someone who has had a massive impact with their their Ministry it's impact with their their Ministry it's impact with their their Ministry it's like that's a very intimidating like that's a very intimidating like that's a very intimidating calling so what was going through your calling so what was going through your calling so what was going through your mind as you weighed the pros and cons mind as you weighed the pros and cons mind as you weighed the pros and cons and prayed to see what God was was up to and prayed to see what God was was up to and prayed to see what God was was up to yeah and the amount of people who said yeah and the amount of people who said yeah and the amount of people who said you know big shoes to fill in fact do I you know big shoes to fill in fact do I you know big shoes to fill in fact do I can I can tell whether things are going can I can tell whether things are going can I can tell whether things are going well or badly any particular month or be well or badly any particular month or be well or badly any particular month or be nearly two years in um the amount of nearly two years in um the amount of nearly two years in um the amount of people who remind me it's big shoes to people who remind me it's big shoes to people who remind me it's big shoes to fill when that goes up you're like oh fill when that goes up you're like oh fill when that goes up you're like oh yeah um the truth is krie uh yeah we yeah um the truth is krie uh yeah we yeah um the truth is krie uh yeah we didn't at first think it was a very good didn't at first think it was a very good didn't at first think it was a very good idea and when Nikki and pipper um first

idea and when Nikki and pipper um first idea and when Nikki and pipper um first chatting to us about it but you my chatting to us about it but you my chatting to us about it but you my process is we we had six years I had six process is we we had six years I had six process is we we had six years I had six years working with Nikki and he was kind years working with Nikki and he was kind years working with Nikki and he was kind enough to have me as his sort of enough to have me as his sort of enough to have me as his sort of associate for four of those years and associate for four of those years and associate for four of those years and they were you my happiest years of they were you my happiest years of they were you my happiest years of ministry and when we left htb to go and ministry and when we left htb to go and ministry and when we left htb to go and plant from htb to uh Brighton plant from htb to uh Brighton plant from htb to uh Brighton it was the sadness for me was the it was the sadness for me was the it was the sadness for me was the thought of leaving thought of leaving thought of leaving htb and leaving Nikki and pipper and the htb and leaving Nikki and pipper and the htb and leaving Nikki and pipper and the team and where some people said oh you team and where some people said oh you team and where some people said oh you know you'll love going to do your own know you'll love going to do your own know you'll love going to do your own thing that was never my kind of thing that was never my kind of thing that was never my kind of motivational driver and actually it was motivational driver and actually it was motivational driver and actually it was Nikki who helped me he said well look Nikki who helped me he said well look Nikki who helped me he said well look rather than you thinking I'm leaving htb rather than you thinking I'm leaving htb rather than you thinking I'm leaving htb why don't you think of it in terms of why don't you think of it in terms of why don't you think of it in terms of taking htb out and so we took you know taking htb out and so we took you know taking htb out and so we took you know the same vision statement play our part the same vision statement play our part the same vision statement play our part in the the evangelization of the Nations in the the evangelization of the Nations in the the evangelization of the Nations the revitalization of the church the the revitalization of the church the the revitalization of the church the transformation of society we set about transformation of society we set about transformation of society we set about that in Brighton over for 13 years and that in Brighton over for 13 years and that in Brighton over for 13 years and then this opportunity came and really I then this opportunity came and really I then this opportunity came and really I see it as sort of continuity you know we see it as sort of continuity you know we see it as sort of continuity you know we did a bit of that Vision where we could did a bit of that Vision where we could did a bit of that Vision where we could in Brighton and what an amazing in Brighton and what an amazing in Brighton and what an amazing privilege to be able to do it continue privilege to be able to do it continue privilege to be able to do it continue to do it if you like the mother Church to do it if you like the mother Church to do it if you like the mother Church of our Network and the uh potential for of our Network and the uh potential for of our Network and the uh potential for our family of churches across the our family of churches across the our family of churches across the country uh to be connected to be sort of country uh to be connected to be sort of country uh to be connected to be sort of harnessed again with Nikki in the 2033 harnessed again with Nikki in the 2033 harnessed again with Nikki in the 2033 vision and and Alpha and uh we we we

vision and and Alpha and uh we we we vision and and Alpha and uh we we we thought about it um and I think to be thought about it um and I think to be thought about it um and I think to be honest the first thing was we had to honest the first thing was we had to honest the first thing was we had to decide whether decide whether decide whether humanly well you know whether we could humanly well you know whether we could humanly well you know whether we could say no because um Nikki and pipper quite say no because um Nikki and pipper quite say no because um Nikki and pipper quite persuasive and we love them yeah we do persuasive and we love them yeah we do persuasive and we love them yeah we do anything um to help them uh but we anything um to help them uh but we anything um to help them uh but we decided you know humanly speaking we decided you know humanly speaking we decided you know humanly speaking we didn't have to do it you know we there didn't have to do it you know we there didn't have to do it you know we there was no push factor from Brighton for us was no push factor from Brighton for us was no push factor from Brighton for us and in some ways that was a help because and in some ways that was a help because and in some ways that was a help because it then helped us discern okay this has it then helped us discern okay this has it then helped us discern okay this has got to be a calling it can't be because got to be a calling it can't be because got to be a calling it can't be because we want to move because we weren't we want to move because we weren't we want to move because we weren't looking to move and when we said about looking to move and when we said about looking to move and when we said about putting on one side okay we don't have putting on one side okay we don't have putting on one side okay we don't have to do this then I think then that opened to do this then I think then that opened to do this then I think then that opened us up to the possibility of trying to us up to the possibility of trying to us up to the possibility of trying to hear God and we talked to our children hear God and we talked to our children hear God and we talked to our children actually and our children who were actually and our children who were actually and our children who were 21 21 21 19 177 and 14 at the time they were and 19 177 and 14 at the time they were and 19 177 and 14 at the time they were and and in many ways they had the most to and in many ways they had the most to and in many ways they had the most to lose because um one of them was going to lose because um one of them was going to lose because um one of them was going to have to move with us one of them was have to move with us one of them was have to move with us one of them was going to have to stay one was going to going to have to stay one was going to going to have to stay one was going to University and you know we ended up University and you know we ended up University and you know we ended up talking to them actually each separately talking to them actually each separately talking to them actually each separately we didn't mean to but it ended up we had we didn't mean to but it ended up we had we didn't mean to but it ended up we had separate conversations and all of them separate conversations and all of them separate conversations and all of them in their different way said um Mom Dad in their different way said um Mom Dad in their different way said um Mom Dad um yeah we think you should do this and um yeah we think you should do this and um yeah we think you should do this and one of them in particular he said to us one of them in particular he said to us one of them in particular he said to us you know we moved to Brighton when we you know we moved to Brighton when we you know we moved to Brighton when we were quite little we've had this amazing were quite little we've had this amazing were quite little we've had this amazing house we live opposite of Park uh we

house we live opposite of Park uh we house we live opposite of Park uh we live very near to the seaside and we live very near to the seaside and we live very near to the seaside and we used to go to the park as a family into used to go to the park as a family into used to go to the park as a family into the seaside lot but you know we've grown the seaside lot but you know we've grown the seaside lot but you know we've grown up we do those things with our friends up we do those things with our friends up we do those things with our friends now and Mom and Dad you you've grown up now and Mom and Dad you you've grown up now and Mom and Dad you you've grown up as well and you need to go and run the as well and you need to go and run the as well and you need to go and run the next leg of the race that God set before next leg of the race that God set before next leg of the race that God set before you so we found that very releasing it you so we found that very releasing it you so we found that very releasing it was a process really was a process really was a process really krie Nikki what did I guess two krie Nikki what did I guess two krie Nikki what did I guess two questions number one what were you and questions number one what were you and questions number one what were you and Pippa looking for in successors and Pippa looking for in successors and Pippa looking for in successors and secondly what in particular did you see secondly what in particular did you see secondly what in particular did you see in Archie and Sam that made you uh think in Archie and Sam that made you uh think in Archie and Sam that made you uh think I think this is the direction that is I think this is the direction that is I think this is the direction that is best for best for best for htb well uh AR had been the assoc at htb well uh AR had been the assoc at htb well uh AR had been the assoc at Vicor for four years yeah and then he'd Vicor for four years yeah and then he'd Vicor for four years yeah and then he'd been um he he he did the first church been um he he he did the first church been um he he he did the first church plant outside of London which he he had plant outside of London which he he had plant outside of London which he he had done for 13 years was it 13 years um and done for 13 years was it 13 years um and done for 13 years was it 13 years um and our son had gone with him as the our son had gone with him as the our son had gone with him as the associate Vicor so um we had we had been associate Vicor so um we had we had been associate Vicor so um we had we had been able to watch Arie at very close able to watch Arie at very close able to watch Arie at very close quarters for um since from quarters for um since from quarters for um since from 2005 um so like for for 17 years and 2005 um so like for for 17 years and 2005 um so like for for 17 years and also it wasn't a sort of sudden thing also it wasn't a sort of sudden thing also it wasn't a sort of sudden thing because he had um taken on focus our because he had um taken on focus our because he had um taken on focus our church family holiday about um five church family holiday about um five church family holiday about um five years before that and the network of at years before that and the network of at years before that and the network of at least three years before that so he was

least three years before that so he was least three years before that so he was already um leading the network and focus already um leading the network and focus already um leading the network and focus and so it was it was it was a very and so it was it was it was a very and so it was it was it was a very natural thing but um you we'd had the natural thing but um you we'd had the natural thing but um you we'd had the opportunity to see U Arie opportunity to see U Arie opportunity to see U Arie character um and gifting um and um you character um and gifting um and um you character um and gifting um and um you know he we knew that Ari and Sam were a know he we knew that Ari and Sam were a know he we knew that Ari and Sam were a fantastic couple we knew the children F fantastic couple we knew the children F fantastic couple we knew the children F uh we watched The Wimbledon final I uh we watched The Wimbledon final I uh we watched The Wimbledon final I think with Charlie on the think with Charlie on the think with Charlie on the sofa um you know it's we we knew them so sofa um you know it's we we knew them so sofa um you know it's we we knew them so well and I think and and they had the well and I think and and they had the well and I think and and they had the htb DNA when when Archie left he said htb DNA when when Archie left he said htb DNA when when Archie left he said you know I've sort got the letter he you know I've sort got the letter he you know I've sort got the letter he wrote to me in 2009 saying we don't feel wrote to me in 2009 saying we don't feel wrote to me in 2009 saying we don't feel we're leaving htb it was like he was we're leaving htb it was like he was we're leaving htb it was like he was saying in that letter this is not the saying in that letter this is not the saying in that letter this is not the end of the story um and we'd always felt end of the story um and we'd always felt end of the story um and we'd always felt that that um that Archie was absolutely that that um that Archie was absolutely that that um that Archie was absolutely key to the whole uh future of of htb and key to the whole uh future of of htb and key to the whole uh future of of htb and in in terms of character the bishop of in in terms of character the bishop of in in terms of character the bishop of London had a um you always used to have London had a um you always used to have London had a um you always used to have these Latin Expressions um and one of these Latin Expressions um and one of these Latin Expressions um and one of the a charts that is and he had an the a charts that is and he had an the a charts that is and he had an expression which which I love and which expression which which I love and which expression which which I love and which which very much applies to Archie um he which very much applies to Archie um he which very much applies to Archie um he he would always say about people that he he would always say about people that he he would always say about people that he thought were were great leaders they thought were were great leaders they thought were were great leaders they were fortia in Ray suava in modo um and

were fortia in Ray suava in modo um and were fortia in Ray suava in modo um and it's it's it it's it's sort of very hard it's it's it it's it's sort of very hard it's it's it it's it's sort of very hard to it it sort of works so well in Latin to it it sort of works so well in Latin to it it sort of works so well in Latin um but for and Reay means strong in um but for and Reay means strong in um but for and Reay means strong in action people who've got Drive and get action people who've got Drive and get action people who've got Drive and get things done and we'd seen that in Archie things done and we'd seen that in Archie things done and we'd seen that in Archie you know when he was associate Vicor he you know when he was associate Vicor he you know when he was associate Vicor he ran the church uh with just Supreme ran the church uh with just Supreme ran the church uh with just Supreme skill and um uh I'd watched him do that skill and um uh I'd watched him do that skill and um uh I'd watched him do that and and was devastated when he left to and and was devastated when he left to and and was devastated when he left to go to Brighton uh because you know I go to Brighton uh because you know I go to Brighton uh because you know I knew that that would be such a hard knew that that would be such a hard knew that that would be such a hard skill to replace although actually miles skill to replace although actually miles skill to replace although actually miles Toman came and did it very well um Toman came and did it very well um Toman came and did it very well um equally a wonderful wonderful guy so um equally a wonderful wonderful guy so um equally a wonderful wonderful guy so um and then we'd watched him in Brighton and then we'd watched him in Brighton and then we'd watched him in Brighton planting into an empty church and planting into an empty church and planting into an empty church and growing it to a thousand people um and growing it to a thousand people um and growing it to a thousand people um and planting churches we were looking today planting churches we were looking today planting churches we were looking today at the churches that have been planted at the churches that have been planted at the churches that have been planted from Brighton and I think there there from Brighton and I think there there from Brighton and I think there there are five into sort of city centers and are five into sort of city centers and are five into sort of city centers and then from that there's gen the Next then from that there's gen the Next then from that there's gen the Next Generation that went out into towns and Generation that went out into towns and Generation that went out into towns and then the next generation and there must then the next generation and there must then the next generation and there must be how many are there 22 churches or be how many are there 22 churches or be how many are there 22 churches or something now planted from from that something now planted from from that something now planted from from that church plant um and um uh you know the church plant um and um uh you know the church plant um and um uh you know the skill with that he had in do doing all skill with that he had in do doing all skill with that he had in do doing all that um so fortit in Ray um and and of that um so fortit in Ray um and and of that um so fortit in Ray um and and of course preaching you know I one of the course preaching you know I one of the course preaching you know I one of the things I missed so much when Archie left things I missed so much when Archie left things I missed so much when Archie left was his preaching because um he I love

was his preaching because um he I love was his preaching because um he I love to listen to Archie preach um and um and to listen to Archie preach um and um and to listen to Archie preach um and um and now I only get to hear that at Focus U now I only get to hear that at Focus U now I only get to hear that at Focus U but but we had it week by week when he but but we had it week by week when he but but we had it week by week when he was associate Vicor was associate Vicor was associate Vicor um and then um suav in modo suav in modo um and then um suav in modo suav in modo um and then um suav in modo suav in modo is is harder even to translate but the is is harder even to translate but the is is harder even to translate but the way you go about things Suave is not the way you go about things Suave is not the way you go about things Suave is not the right it it's a it's the soft skills in right it it's a it's the soft skills in right it it's a it's the soft skills in other words it's a combination of the other words it's a combination of the other words it's a combination of the harder things that the forone ray is the harder things that the forone ray is the harder things that the forone ray is the sort of the the drive the the uh Vision sort of the the drive the the uh Vision sort of the the drive the the uh Vision the the strategy and the the suav in the the strategy and the the suav in the the strategy and the the suav in modo is the where you go about it the modo is the where you go about it the modo is the where you go about it the gentleness gentleness gentleness graciousness um all those skills that graciousness um all those skills that graciousness um all those skills that actually combines these the hard skills actually combines these the hard skills actually combines these the hard skills and the soft skills in a way that is and the soft skills in a way that is and the soft skills in a way that is required in that in that role because required in that in that role because required in that in that role because there there there's complexities um and there there there's complexities um and there there there's complexities um and I think you know I some ways you going I think you know I some ways you going I think you know I some ways you going back to the past analogy I I handed AR back to the past analogy I I handed AR back to the past analogy I I handed AR you the rugby pass and sorry the you the rugby pass and sorry the you the rugby pass and sorry the hospital pass uh the hospital pass hospital pass uh the hospital pass hospital pass uh the hospital pass because it's like I handed him HTV at a because it's like I handed him HTV at a because it's like I handed him HTV at a time when a lot of complic you know time when a lot of complic you know time when a lot of complic you know complexity was coming into the world and complexity was coming into the world and complexity was coming into the world and into running a church I think Arie has a into running a church I think Arie has a into running a church I think Arie has a far harder job than I ever had I think far harder job than I ever had I think far harder job than I ever had I think running a church these days is much running a church these days is much running a church these days is much harder than it was 17 years ago uh was harder than it was 17 years ago uh was harder than it was 17 years ago uh was social media the the just the the the um

social media the the just the the the um social media the the just the the the um being in a being the the critical the being in a being the the critical the being in a being the the critical the critical world that we we live in uh it critical world that we we live in uh it critical world that we we live in uh it makes it a much harder thing to do and makes it a much harder thing to do and makes it a much harder thing to do and um and so you know it's been just one of um and so you know it's been just one of um and so you know it's been just one of the greatest joys of my life to watch the greatest joys of my life to watch the greatest joys of my life to watch the way that um Archie has picked up the the way that um Archie has picked up the the way that um Archie has picked up the bathan and run with it and every time I bathan and run with it and every time I bathan and run with it and every time I hear as I heard this weekend I heard hear as I heard this weekend I heard hear as I heard this weekend I heard reports of this weekend I try not to you reports of this weekend I try not to you reports of this weekend I try not to you know I try not to even watch it online know I try not to even watch it online know I try not to even watch it online because um uh I don't feel I don't want because um uh I don't feel I don't want because um uh I don't feel I don't want Arie to think that I'm I'm watching what Arie to think that I'm I'm watching what Arie to think that I'm I'm watching what he's doing but inevitably I hear he's doing but inevitably I hear he's doing but inevitably I hear um uh reports and on Monday morning I um uh reports and on Monday morning I um uh reports and on Monday morning I had ah I was at a wedding Arie took he had ah I was at a wedding Arie took he had ah I was at a wedding Arie took he he let he did it so beautifully and then he let he did it so beautifully and then he let he did it so beautifully and then on Sunday you've got to listen to the on Sunday you've got to listen to the on Sunday you've got to listen to the sermon Archie pre I all my principles sermon Archie pre I all my principles sermon Archie pre I all my principles and listen to Archie's talk from Sunday and listen to Archie's talk from Sunday and listen to Archie's talk from Sunday because it was wonderful and I was just because it was wonderful and I was just because it was wonderful and I was just you know it just gives me such joy to you know it just gives me such joy to you know it just gives me such joy to see see see that so Nikki I I'm going to quote you that so Nikki I I'm going to quote you that so Nikki I I'm going to quote you to you I always love it when people do to you I always love it when people do to you I always love it when people do that but um that but um that but um you said if I've got the quote right you said if I've got the quote right you said if I've got the quote right succession is the most important task of succession is the most important task of succession is the most important task of any any any leader um want to know what you mean by leader um want to know what you mean by leader um want to know what you mean by that well if you think of it as a relay that well if you think of it as a relay that well if you think of it as a relay race if if you drop the Baton I mean if race if if you drop the Baton I mean if race if if you drop the Baton I mean if you in the succession process the Baton you in the succession process the Baton you in the succession process the Baton gets dropped either because of the fault gets dropped either because of the fault gets dropped either because of the fault of the person handing it on or the of the person handing it on or the of the person handing it on or the person taking it that's the it you lose

person taking it that's the it you lose person taking it that's the it you lose the race is over I don't know whether the race is over I don't know whether the race is over I don't know whether you're disqualified but I think you are you're disqualified but I think you are you're disqualified but I think you are as you disqualified if you dropped the as you disqualified if you dropped the as you disqualified if you dropped the batom but but this you know that's the batom but but this you know that's the batom but but this you know that's the most important moment in any relay race most important moment in any relay race most important moment in any relay race which effectively it is if a church you which effectively it is if a church you which effectively it is if a church you know um HB has a long succession uh John know um HB has a long succession uh John know um HB has a long succession uh John Collins had hand it over to Sandy Collins had hand it over to Sandy Collins had hand it over to Sandy beautifully Sandy handed it over beautifully Sandy handed it over beautifully Sandy handed it over perfectly to me that you know the way he perfectly to me that you know the way he perfectly to me that you know the way he handed it to me was just beely done and handed it to me was just beely done and handed it to me was just beely done and my responsibility was to hand it on to my responsibility was to hand it on to my responsibility was to hand it on to Archie and if you if you if you drop the Archie and if you if you if you drop the Archie and if you if you if you drop the battle at that point then that's that's battle at that point then that's that's battle at that point then that's that's pretty bad um so the fact that that that pretty bad um so the fact that that that pretty bad um so the fact that that that it it went from from from us to Arie and it it went from from from us to Arie and it it went from from from us to Arie and Sam and that they've run you know they Sam and that they've run you know they Sam and that they've run you know they took it and just sprinted um uh is is a took it and just sprinted um uh is is a took it and just sprinted um uh is is a huge huge Joy but but I was aware you huge huge Joy but but I was aware you huge huge Joy but but I was aware you know in the hand it m it really mattered know in the hand it m it really mattered know in the hand it m it really mattered that I that we did it right that I that we did it right that I that we did it right and that we we hand it a to the right and that we we hand it a to the right and that we we hand it a to the right person and B in the right person and B in the right person and B in the right way well and I can see that I mean you way well and I can see that I mean you way well and I can see that I mean you know if you drop the Baton as we would know if you drop the Baton as we would know if you drop the Baton as we would call it on this side of the pond sorry call it on this side of the pond sorry call it on this side of the pond sorry baton yeah no no no baton I'm sure any baton yeah no no no baton I'm sure any baton yeah no no no baton I'm sure any British pronunciation is the right British pronunciation is the right British pronunciation is the right pronunciation in my book Nikki so you pronunciation in my book Nikki so you pronunciation in my book Nikki so you you just you just say it properly but if you just you just say it properly but if you just you just say it properly but if you drop it we'll call it it um you can you drop it we'll call it it um you can you drop it we'll call it it um you can undo not just 17 years but all of sy's

undo not just 17 years but all of sy's undo not just 17 years but all of sy's ministry all of John's and you know ministry all of John's and you know ministry all of John's and you know centuries of of of work in a in a church centuries of of of work in a in a church centuries of of of work in a in a church like htb so Arie I want to flip it to like htb so Arie I want to flip it to like htb so Arie I want to flip it to you when I Was preparing for this I read you when I Was preparing for this I read you when I Was preparing for this I read an interview in which you very helpfully an interview in which you very helpfully an interview in which you very helpfully and honestly candidly raised the and honestly candidly raised the and honestly candidly raised the question every successor struggles with question every successor struggles with question every successor struggles with what if htb shrinks uh what if I get it what if htb shrinks uh what if I get it what if htb shrinks uh what if I get it wrong what if it doesn't work um what wrong what if it doesn't work um what wrong what if it doesn't work um what was going through your mind and um I'm was going through your mind and um I'm was going through your mind and um I'm just I'm just curious your reaction to just I'm just curious your reaction to just I'm just curious your reaction to that you know that's got to you got to that you know that's got to you got to that you know that's got to you got to feel feel that I talked about that with feel feel that I talked about that with feel feel that I talked about that with my successor with with Jeff I didn't my successor with with Jeff I didn't my successor with with Jeff I didn't raise it with him he raised it with me raise it with him he raised it with me raise it with him he raised it with me uh and I'd love to know both of your uh and I'd love to know both of your uh and I'd love to know both of your takes on that like it hasn't it hasn't takes on that like it hasn't it hasn't takes on that like it hasn't it hasn't it's gone extremely well but what was it's gone extremely well but what was it's gone extremely well but what was your reaction to those possibilities as your reaction to those possibilities as your reaction to those possibilities as a successor Argie I just felt it was a successor Argie I just felt it was a successor Argie I just felt it was very important to face that question you very important to face that question you very important to face that question you know what oneself um because I don't know what oneself um because I don't know what oneself um because I don't think you I don't think anyone should think you I don't think anyone should think you I don't think anyone should take a a job especially not in a church take a a job especially not in a church take a a job especially not in a church leadership because you think you're leadership because you think you're leadership because you think you're going to smash it or it's like it's going to smash it or it's like it's going to smash it or it's like it's going to be a success because um I mean going to be a success because um I mean going to be a success because um I mean who could leave who can live with that who could leave who can live with that who could leave who can live with that kind of pressure and I was struck by kind of pressure and I was struck by kind of pressure and I was struck by when you know when God calls especially when you know when God calls especially when you know when God calls especially the Old Testament characters you know the Old Testament characters you know the Old Testament characters you know Moses he he doesn't say to Moses you Moses he he doesn't say to Moses you Moses he he doesn't say to Moses you know you're you're going to be great you know you're you're going to be great you know you're you're going to be great you know you're really going to be able to know you're really going to be able to know you're really going to be able to do this he just says you know I'm great

do this he just says you know I'm great do this he just says you know I'm great and I'm going to do it through you you and I'm going to do it through you you and I'm going to do it through you you know the the the sense of my presence know the the the sense of my presence know the the the sense of my presence and I I think that that's and I I think that that's and I I think that that's um I think you do things in the end um I think you do things in the end um I think you do things in the end purely and simply because you've believe purely and simply because you've believe purely and simply because you've believe that God's asked you to do that God's asked you to do that God's asked you to do it and as far as you best know and it and as far as you best know and it and as far as you best know and you're doing it out of obedience to him you're doing it out of obedience to him you're doing it out of obedience to him and trust in him and faithfulness to him and trust in him and faithfulness to him and trust in him and faithfulness to him in in whatever way he will wishes and I in in whatever way he will wishes and I in in whatever way he will wishes and I I have these um they're a bit um we I have these um they're a bit um we I have these um they're a bit um we would say cheesy but I have these um would say cheesy but I have these um would say cheesy but I have these um little decorations that I make every little decorations that I make every little decorations that I make every morning in my quiet time then I kind of morning in my quiet time then I kind of morning in my quiet time then I kind of wander around um trying to pray uh wander around um trying to pray uh wander around um trying to pray uh around the park here in central London around the park here in central London around the park here in central London High Park and I always say the same four High Park and I always say the same four High Park and I always say the same four things every morning I say first of all things every morning I say first of all things every morning I say first of all I say God is my father and I am loved I say God is my father and I am loved I say God is my father and I am loved then I say Jesus died and rose again for then I say Jesus died and rose again for then I say Jesus died and rose again for me and everything ultimately is going to me and everything ultimately is going to me and everything ultimately is going to be okay then third I say I'm filled with be okay then third I say I'm filled with be okay then third I say I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and I'm able to do the Holy Spirit and I'm able to do the Holy Spirit and I'm able to do everything that I'm required to do by everything that I'm required to do by everything that I'm required to do by God today and then I finish with God today and then I finish with God today and then I finish with Ephesians 2 ver10 which says I am God's Ephesians 2 ver10 which says I am God's Ephesians 2 ver10 which says I am God's handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works that he's prepared in advance good works that he's prepared in advance good works that he's prepared in advance for me to do today at the end of it and for me to do today at the end of it and for me to do today at the end of it and then I kind of said about the day and I

then I kind of said about the day and I then I kind of said about the day and I that's all I all I can do otherwise I I that's all I all I can do otherwise I I that's all I all I can do otherwise I I say otherwise I think you live with this say otherwise I think you live with this say otherwise I think you live with this sort of pressure that you've got to sort of pressure that you've got to sort of pressure that you've got to somehow be something or do something and somehow be something or do something and somehow be something or do something and I I don't think anyone can live with I I don't think anyone can live with I I don't think anyone can live with that so good it is Nikki I imagine for that so good it is Nikki I imagine for that so good it is Nikki I imagine for yourself uh it hasn't played out this yourself uh it hasn't played out this yourself uh it hasn't played out this way but you must have gone through the way but you must have gone through the way but you must have gone through the hypothetical of what if it doesn't work hypothetical of what if it doesn't work hypothetical of what if it doesn't work out well what what if it shrinks what if out well what what if it shrinks what if out well what what if it shrinks what if what if things get what if things get what if things get unfurled um had you thought through how unfurled um had you thought through how unfurled um had you thought through how you might react if that should happen you might react if that should happen you might react if that should happen and it hasn't but I'm curious the answer and it hasn't but I'm curious the answer and it hasn't but I'm curious the answer and here's why I've seen a lot of and here's why I've seen a lot of and here's why I've seen a lot of leaders when it doesn't go sometimes leaders when it doesn't go sometimes leaders when it doesn't go sometimes it's actually going quite well it's just it's actually going quite well it's just it's actually going quite well it's just not going the way they wish it would or not going the way they wish it would or not going the way they wish it would or the way they would have let it and they the way they would have let it and they the way they would have let it and they swoop back in and they try to take swoop back in and they try to take swoop back in and they try to take control so in the hypothetical that had control so in the hypothetical that had control so in the hypothetical that had it had not gone well had you thought it had not gone well had you thought it had not gone well had you thought through what your response might through what your response might through what your response might you know I don't think it ever I ever you know I don't think it ever I ever you know I don't think it ever I ever really I had such confidence in in AR really I had such confidence in in AR really I had such confidence in in AR you know I'd handed he he'd rather in a you know I'd handed he he'd rather in a you know I'd handed he he'd rather in a sense I'd handed three things over to sense I'd handed three things over to sense I'd handed three things over to him in the past you know because being him in the past you know because being him in the past you know because being associate Vicor um uh at htb the way associate Vicor um uh at htb the way associate Vicor um uh at htb the way that the htb or the way that I led at that the htb or the way that I led at that the htb or the way that I led at htb really meant being the Vicor because htb really meant being the Vicor because htb really meant being the Vicor because uh it was kind of like running uh it was kind of like running uh it was kind of like running everything because I was trying to do everything because I was trying to do everything because I was trying to do other things as well so it the running

other things as well so it the running other things as well so it the running of the church I'd seen that Archie was of the church I'd seen that Archie was of the church I'd seen that Archie was capable of running the church I'd seen capable of running the church I'd seen capable of running the church I'd seen that he was capable of running a church that he was capable of running a church that he was capable of running a church plant I seen he was capable of running a plant I seen he was capable of running a plant I seen he was capable of running a movement um and so it wasn't he wasn't movement um and so it wasn't he wasn't movement um and so it wasn't he wasn't an unknown quantity as far as the an unknown quantity as far as the an unknown quantity as far as the congregation were concerned they either congregation were concerned they either congregation were concerned they either knew him because they were there when he knew him because they were there when he knew him because they were there when he was associate or they knew him because was associate or they knew him because was associate or they knew him because he was um uh and also there was a sort he was um uh and also there was a sort he was um uh and also there was a sort of as well as all the human factors that of as well as all the human factors that of as well as all the human factors that I I I Sam Sam Archie's wife who's wonderful Sam Sam Archie's wife who's wonderful Sam Sam Archie's wife who's wonderful has the same birthdays as has the same birthdays as has the same birthdays as Pippa exactly 20 years younger and like Pippa exactly 20 years younger and like Pippa exactly 20 years younger and like like it's that's what it needs it needs like it's that's what it needs it needs like it's that's what it needs it needs it needs a 20 year drop in age um and I it needs a 20 year drop in age um and I it needs a 20 year drop in age um and I I I had sort of total confidence that I I had sort of total confidence that I I had sort of total confidence that that Archie would um and as far as that Archie would um and as far as that Archie would um and as far as things changing uh so when I took CU you things changing uh so when I took CU you things changing uh so when I took CU you know what Archie was the questions AR know what Archie was the questions AR know what Archie was the questions AR she was asking all the questions I was she was asking all the questions I was she was asking all the questions I was asking when Sandy asked me to take on asking when Sandy asked me to take on asking when Sandy asked me to take on hdb uh from him uh back in 2004 when I hdb uh from him uh back in 2004 when I hdb uh from him uh back in 2004 when I was thinking and I went for a walk with was thinking and I went for a walk with was thinking and I went for a walk with Johnny my son and um and I was just Johnny my son and um and I was just Johnny my son and um and I was just unsure about whether you know because unsure about whether you know because unsure about whether you know because talk about big big shoes to fill um talk about big big shoes to fill um talk about big big shoes to fill um Sandy Miller shoes were a lot bigger Sandy Miller shoes were a lot bigger Sandy Miller shoes were a lot bigger than than my shoes to fill um and I I I than than my shoes to fill um and I I I than than my shoes to fill um and I I I I said to Johnny um you know do you

I said to Johnny um you know do you I said to Johnny um you know do you think you know some ways I think you know some ways I think you know some ways I he Johnny said well you know what do you he Johnny said well you know what do you he Johnny said well you know what do you feel about I said well in some ways I feel about I said well in some ways I feel about I said well in some ways I feel I'm too old because I was 50 at the feel I'm too old because I was 50 at the feel I'm too old because I was 50 at the time and congregation are average age 27 time and congregation are average age 27 time and congregation are average age 27 um but in some ways I feel I'm too young um but in some ways I feel I'm too young um but in some ways I feel I'm too young because I feel inexperienced and he said because I feel inexperienced and he said because I feel inexperienced and he said well do you think that might mean you're well do you think that might mean you're well do you think that might mean you're the right the right the right age and then and then I said but I don't age and then and then I said but I don't age and then and then I said but I don't feel ready feel ready feel ready you know I don't feel ready to be vicker you know I don't feel ready to be vicker you know I don't feel ready to be vicker of htb and then he said well um uh when of htb and then he said well um uh when of htb and then he said well um uh when Prince Caspian says to Alan he doesn't Prince Caspian says to Alan he doesn't Prince Caspian says to Alan he doesn't feel ready to to run the kingdom of of feel ready to to run the kingdom of of feel ready to to run the kingdom of of naria aan said well if you said you were naria aan said well if you said you were naria aan said well if you said you were ready you wouldn't have been ready you wouldn't have been ready you wouldn't have been ready so so and then I said well the ready so so and then I said well the ready so so and then I said well the thing is the thing is Johnny I I sort of thing is the thing is Johnny I I sort of thing is the thing is Johnny I I sort of feel if I make feel if I make feel if I make changes um then it'll be sort of it look changes um then it'll be sort of it look changes um then it'll be sort of it look like a criticism of Sandy and if I don't like a criticism of Sandy and if I don't like a criticism of Sandy and if I don't make changes then you know how can you make changes then you know how can you make changes then you know how can you run it you know how can you do it and he run it you know how can you do it and he run it you know how can you do it and he said well GK chesson said in order to in said well GK chesson said in order to in said well GK chesson said in order to in order to stay the same you have to order to stay the same you have to order to stay the same you have to change um you know if your house if you change um you know if your house if you change um you know if your house if you don't decorate your house it it doesn't don't decorate your house it it doesn't don't decorate your house it it doesn't stay the same you have to keep changing stay the same you have to keep changing stay the same you have to keep changing and so this is the point that I met in and so this is the point that I met in and so this is the point that I met in the last the last talk I gave at HCB was the last the last talk I gave at HCB was the last the last talk I gave at HCB was called The Best Is Yet To Come which is called The Best Is Yet To Come which is called The Best Is Yet To Come which is what I gen genely believed and and I what I gen genely believed and and I what I gen genely believed and and I still do believe The Best Is Yet To Come

still do believe The Best Is Yet To Come still do believe The Best Is Yet To Come uh but I did say to them please expect uh but I did say to them please expect uh but I did say to them please expect changes and don't say uh you know it was changes and don't say uh you know it was changes and don't say uh you know it was it was better oh you know this is the it was better oh you know this is the it was better oh you know this is the changes they're making it wasn't that changes they're making it wasn't that changes they're making it wasn't that because expect unless I'll be really because expect unless I'll be really because expect unless I'll be really disappointed if Archie doesn't make disappointed if Archie doesn't make disappointed if Archie doesn't make changes I you know I'm delighted every changes I you know I'm delighted every changes I you know I'm delighted every time I go back and wow you know even the time I go back and wow you know even the time I go back and wow you know even the drive has changed it's so much better drive has changed it's so much better drive has changed it's so much better the you know you walk into to the the you know you walk into to the the you know you walk into to the wherever it is Sam's got a brilliant eye wherever it is Sam's got a brilliant eye wherever it is Sam's got a brilliant eye for making all the rooms look amazing uh for making all the rooms look amazing uh for making all the rooms look amazing uh but I'm always going to say what it's so but I'm always going to say what it's so but I'm always going to say what it's so good it's changing I would be so good it's changing I would be so good it's changing I would be so disappointed if I went back and they the disappointed if I went back and they the disappointed if I went back and they the same dreary old paint and the same Dre same dreary old paint and the same Dre same dreary old paint and the same Dre old chairs and the same uh but that's a old chairs and the same uh but that's a old chairs and the same uh but that's a you know and same with the the ministry you know and same with the the ministry you know and same with the the ministry side of it it wasn't changing uh it side of it it wasn't changing uh it side of it it wasn't changing uh it would be not so you know I I I try not would be not so you know I I I try not would be not so you know I I I try not to to know too much about what's going to to know too much about what's going to to know too much about what's going on at HGB but whenever I hear of changes on at HGB but whenever I hear of changes on at HGB but whenever I hear of changes I'm thrilled because it needs to change I'm thrilled because it needs to change I'm thrilled because it needs to change in order to stay the same and for htb to in order to stay the same and for htb to in order to stay the same and for htb to stay htb it's got to continually change stay htb it's got to continually change stay htb it's got to continually change and and and you know someone coming in and and and you know someone coming in and and and you know someone coming in who's 20 years younger is able to do who's 20 years younger is able to do who's 20 years younger is able to do that in a way that I wasn't able to that in a way that I wasn't able to that in a way that I wasn't able to continue to continue to continue to do RG one of the big questions for do RG one of the big questions for do RG one of the big questions for leaders in your shoes and succession is leaders in your shoes and succession is leaders in your shoes and succession is a huge story already it's going to be a huge story already it's going to be a huge story already it's going to be even bigger in the next decade as more even bigger in the next decade as more even bigger in the next decade as more and more older leaders step out of and more older leaders step out of and more older leaders step out of leadership but one of the big questions leadership but one of the big questions leadership but one of the big questions for people in your shoes particularly

for people in your shoes particularly for people in your shoes particularly where there has been you know a great where there has been you know a great where there has been you know a great track record and by all accounts htb was track record and by all accounts htb was track record and by all accounts htb was in good growing shape when you got it in good growing shape when you got it in good growing shape when you got it what did you do in the first 100 days in what did you do in the first 100 days in what did you do in the first 100 days in the first year what was your approach to the first year what was your approach to the first year what was your approach to that first season in that first season in that first season in leadership well I felt the job I've been leadership well I felt the job I've been leadership well I felt the job I've been given in some ways had been a job that's given in some ways had been a job that's given in some ways had been a job that's of designed to be at 10,000 th000 of designed to be at 10,000 th000 of designed to be at 10,000 th000 ft and in in a way that's the only way ft and in in a way that's the only way ft and in in a way that's the only way you can do it with its um scale and you can do it with its um scale and you can do it with its um scale and complexity but and of course it's so complexity but and of course it's so complexity but and of course it's so different because my my experience have different because my my experience have different because my my experience have been in pioneering and imp planting I been in pioneering and imp planting I been in pioneering and imp planting I sometimes say that in Brighton I felt sometimes say that in Brighton I felt sometimes say that in Brighton I felt like I gave birth to a child and htb I like I gave birth to a child and htb I like I gave birth to a child and htb I feel like I've adopted a child and it's feel like I've adopted a child and it's feel like I've adopted a child and it's just so different coming into something just so different coming into something just so different coming into something that is so seasoned and you know there's that is so seasoned and you know there's that is so seasoned and you know there's more voices more opinions more more voices more opinions more more voices more opinions more stakeholders and but all the advice I I stakeholders and but all the advice I I stakeholders and but all the advice I I expect I picked it up from your podcast expect I picked it up from your podcast expect I picked it up from your podcast kri um was you know to take probably kri um was you know to take probably kri um was you know to take probably longer than you realize to listen learn longer than you realize to listen learn longer than you realize to listen learn and love and you know don't because I and love and you know don't because I and love and you know don't because I think the old thing used to be you know think the old thing used to be you know think the old thing used to be you know you got a honeymoon period and make your you got a honeymoon period and make your you got a honeymoon period and make your changes quickly and I I think to a changes quickly and I I think to a changes quickly and I I think to a degree that can be right and if imagine degree that can be right and if imagine degree that can be right and if imagine if an organization is sort of in any way if an organization is sort of in any way if an organization is sort of in any way toxic you need to do that but HCB was a toxic you need to do that but HCB was a toxic you need to do that but HCB was a million miles from that so actually I I million miles from that so actually I I million miles from that so actually I I was afforded the time to get to know was afforded the time to get to know was afforded the time to get to know what people and what's going on because

what people and what's going on because what people and what's going on because otherwise you make changes but you otherwise you make changes but you otherwise you make changes but you probably either haven't quite got the probably either haven't quite got the probably either haven't quite got the right data points or you haven't got the right data points or you haven't got the right data points or you haven't got the relational Capital to bring people with relational Capital to bring people with relational Capital to bring people with you and so I think I really spent time you and so I think I really spent time you and so I think I really spent time doing that but the other thing I noticed doing that but the other thing I noticed doing that but the other thing I noticed was s of the listening learning loving was s of the listening learning loving was s of the listening learning loving the other thing is leading so in other the other thing is leading so in other the other thing is leading so in other words if you can especially if you're words if you can especially if you're words if you can especially if you're following somebody who's such a kind of following somebody who's such a kind of following somebody who's such a kind of visionary leader as Nikki you it's great visionary leader as Nikki you it's great visionary leader as Nikki you it's great being a nice guy for two years but if being a nice guy for two years but if being a nice guy for two years but if you can also demonstrate that you have you can also demonstrate that you have you can also demonstrate that you have got you know something that you're going got you know something that you're going got you know something that you're going to take the thing forward you're not to take the thing forward you're not to take the thing forward you're not just listening and learning and loving just listening and learning and loving just listening and learning and loving uh and I was lucky I had a couple of uh and I was lucky I had a couple of uh and I was lucky I had a couple of opportunities to do that I remember opportunities to do that I remember opportunities to do that I remember there were more signals really or kind there were more signals really or kind there were more signals really or kind of iconic things but the first Christmas of iconic things but the first Christmas of iconic things but the first Christmas so we've been here like matter of two so we've been here like matter of two so we've been here like matter of two months three months I said look let's months three months I said look let's months three months I said look let's hire uh a big venue in the north of hire uh a big venue in the north of hire uh a big venue in the north of London so not one of our church London so not one of our church London so not one of our church buildings for a big Christmas buildings for a big Christmas buildings for a big Christmas celebration and event it was like a 1500 celebration and event it was like a 1500 celebration and event it was like a 1500 2,000 CA and it wasn't something that 2,000 CA and it wasn't something that 2,000 CA and it wasn't something that we'd done before as a church and we'd done before as a church and we'd done before as a church and everybody thought oh that's quite a big everybody thought oh that's quite a big everybody thought oh that's quite a big thing to go for and I threw it at the thing to go for and I threw it at the thing to go for and I threw it at the person uh who I thought was best able to person uh who I thought was best able to person uh who I thought was best able to pull that off and and they did and then pull that off and and they did and then pull that off and and they did and then of course that sort send a signal like of course that sort send a signal like of course that sort send a signal like oh okay oh we're actually going to do oh okay oh we're actually going to do oh okay oh we're actually going to do some stuff as well but you don't need some stuff as well but you don't need some stuff as well but you don't need lots of those things to begin with and lots of those things to begin with and lots of those things to begin with and uh so I think that was really really key uh so I think that was really really key uh so I think that was really really key and the other thing again um I'm sure

and the other thing again um I'm sure and the other thing again um I'm sure you've referenced it but I found Henry you've referenced it but I found Henry you've referenced it but I found Henry Cloud's book on trust really helpful Cloud's book on trust really helpful Cloud's book on trust really helpful it's so good isn't it yeah I mean it's it's so good isn't it yeah I mean it's it's so good isn't it yeah I mean it's massive I don't know I read a an early massive I don't know I read a an early massive I don't know I read a an early manuscript is it 300 Pages 350 he talks manuscript is it 300 Pages 350 he talks manuscript is it 300 Pages 350 he talks about these five pillars of how you help about these five pillars of how you help about these five pillars of how you help build trust in people it's people trust build trust in people it's people trust build trust in people it's people trust you when they feel like you understand you when they feel like you understand you when they feel like you understand them when you feel when they feel like them when you feel when they feel like them when you feel when they feel like you're for you're for you're for them when you have them when you have them when you have competency character and track record competency character and track record competency character and track record and I think I noticed particularly and I think I noticed particularly and I think I noticed particularly around the competency you if to begin around the competency you if to begin around the competency you if to begin with you can do a few of the things that with you can do a few of the things that with you can do a few of the things that you know because there's so much that you know because there's so much that you know because there's so much that you can't do or there just beyond your you can't do or there just beyond your you can't do or there just beyond your experience or beyond your skill set but experience or beyond your skill set but experience or beyond your skill set but there's one or two things that maybe God there's one or two things that maybe God there's one or two things that maybe God has gifted you at that you've had some has gifted you at that you've had some has gifted you at that you've had some experience of for me it was probably experience of for me it was probably experience of for me it was probably preaching and so I made sure I did some preaching and so I made sure I did some preaching and so I made sure I did some of that to begin with just to try and of that to begin with just to try and of that to begin with just to try and build that sense of okay competency and build that sense of okay competency and build that sense of okay competency and then that helps build trust that's then that helps build trust that's then that helps build trust that's probably how I said about the first 100 probably how I said about the first 100 probably how I said about the first 100 days H that's super helpful and I think days H that's super helpful and I think days H that's super helpful and I think you're right there has been a shift from you're right there has been a shift from you're right there has been a shift from the it's a honeymoon period I'm going to the it's a honeymoon period I'm going to the it's a honeymoon period I'm going to do whatever I can and get away with it do whatever I can and get away with it do whatever I can and get away with it to that humility and I want to come back to that humility and I want to come back to that humility and I want to come back to that but before I do um I'd love to to that but before I do um I'd love to to that but before I do um I'd love to know first almost two years know first almost two years know first almost two years Archie best thing or easiest you take

Archie best thing or easiest you take Archie best thing or easiest you take your pick and the hardest thing so far your pick and the hardest thing so far your pick and the hardest thing so far and then Nikki I'm gonna ask you about and then Nikki I'm gonna ask you about and then Nikki I'm gonna ask you about that in 17 years of leading HTV best that in 17 years of leading HTV best that in 17 years of leading HTV best thing hardest thing so far AR well I thing hardest thing so far AR well I thing hardest thing so far AR well I think I mean Nikki said it in his think I mean Nikki said it in his think I mean Nikki said it in his message yeah The Best Is Yet To Come the message yeah The Best Is Yet To Come the message yeah The Best Is Yet To Come the the the great thing that I found when I the the great thing that I found when I the the great thing that I found when I arrived was that there was momentum in arrived was that there was momentum in arrived was that there was momentum in the church and do you know that um I the church and do you know that um I the church and do you know that um I Heard it about um Erin sain who wrote Heard it about um Erin sain who wrote Heard it about um Erin sain who wrote you know the first four seasons of The you know the first four seasons of The you know the first four seasons of The West Wing and was the producer and I West Wing and was the producer and I West Wing and was the producer and I don't know this is right or not but what don't know this is right or not but what don't know this is right or not but what I heard was that at the end of the I heard was that at the end of the I heard was that at the end of the fourth season he knew he wasn't going to fourth season he knew he wasn't going to fourth season he knew he wasn't going to be doing season five and he left it on be doing season five and he left it on be doing season five and he left it on such a cliffhanger that it kind of such a cliffhanger that it kind of such a cliffhanger that it kind of whoever followed him had such momentum whoever followed him had such momentum whoever followed him had such momentum going through into the next season and I going through into the next season and I going through into the next season and I felt that with htb that's what Nikki felt that with htb that's what Nikki felt that with htb that's what Nikki done so it afforded me the time to get done so it afforded me the time to get done so it afforded me the time to get in and um listen learn and love because in and um listen learn and love because in and um listen learn and love because you know they were already doing stacks you know they were already doing stacks you know they were already doing stacks of stuff in terms of the vision and that of stuff in terms of the vision and that of stuff in terms of the vision and that momentum really really uh helped me it momentum really really uh helped me it momentum really really uh helped me it was already had lots of s of steam uh was already had lots of s of steam uh was already had lots of s of steam uh and I guess uh the and I guess uh the and I guess uh the greatest I don't know what but I mean greatest I don't know what but I mean greatest I don't know what but I mean the greatest thing that's happened if the greatest thing that's happened if the greatest thing that's happened if I'm honest is probably that people um it I'm honest is probably that people um it I'm honest is probably that people um it must be the culture of the church that I must be the culture of the church that I must be the culture of the church that I inherited it's like they believe in me inherited it's like they believe in me inherited it's like they believe in me it's like um you know you can tell when it's like um you know you can tell when it's like um you know you can tell when you walk somewhere and they've been told you walk somewhere and they've been told you walk somewhere and they've been told to be welcoming and or you know you know

to be welcoming and or you know you know to be welcoming and or you know you know you give them a chance but with this it you give them a chance but with this it you give them a chance but with this it hasn't been that it's like no no no we hasn't been that it's like no no no we hasn't been that it's like no no no we genuinely believe you're called here and genuinely believe you're called here and genuinely believe you're called here and they're not like sitting back waiting to they're not like sitting back waiting to they're not like sitting back waiting to see whether to follow you or not you see whether to follow you or not you see whether to follow you or not you know they're they're all in and it's an know they're they're all in and it's an know they're they're all in and it's an amazing culture that I've been amazing culture that I've been amazing culture that I've been I've inherited uh and I've inherited uh and I've inherited uh and Nikki is extraordinary because you know Nikki is extraordinary because you know Nikki is extraordinary because you know he it's not just that he says he he it's not just that he says he he it's not just that he says he believes in me he genuinely Believes In believes in me he genuinely Believes In believes in me he genuinely Believes In Me and I know that and when you have Me and I know that and when you have Me and I know that and when you have something with that sense of something with that sense of something with that sense of security uh makes transition a lot security uh makes transition a lot security uh makes transition a lot easier so I think that's probably what's easier so I think that's probably what's easier so I think that's probably what's gone gone well I've been able to find my gone gone well I've been able to find my gone gone well I've been able to find my feet is basically what I'm saying uh feet is basically what I'm saying uh feet is basically what I'm saying uh what's been hardest is uh well it is it what's been hardest is uh well it is it what's been hardest is uh well it is it is there's no two ways about it it's a is there's no two ways about it it's a is there's no two ways about it it's a step up um for me and so you know the um step up um for me and so you know the um step up um for me and so you know the um phrase I think of it's that book isn't phrase I think of it's that book isn't phrase I think of it's that book isn't it Marshall um gold smith you know what it Marshall um gold smith you know what it Marshall um gold smith you know what got you here won't get you there in got you here won't get you there in got you here won't get you there in other words presumably when you get a other words presumably when you get a other words presumably when you get a job of any description you're partly job of any description you're partly job of any description you're partly hired on your track record of what hired on your track record of what hired on your track record of what you've done but it's a little bit you've done but it's a little bit you've done but it's a little bit frightening when you get to the new frightening when you get to the new frightening when you get to the new place you realize the very things that I place you realize the very things that I place you realize the very things that I was able to do in the last place because was able to do in the last place because was able to do in the last place because it was a smaller scale aren't going to it was a smaller scale aren't going to it was a smaller scale aren't going to quite work here and you suddenly realize quite work here and you suddenly realize quite work here and you suddenly realize ah okay we're going to need it to lead ah okay we're going to need it to lead ah okay we're going to need it to lead out of weakness not strength so I think out of weakness not strength so I think out of weakness not strength so I think that's been quite un learning and also that's been quite un learning and also that's been quite un learning and also you know the you know the you know the relationships you you there's no two

relationships you you there's no two relationships you you there's no two ways about it um Nikki kind of gave me ways about it um Nikki kind of gave me ways about it um Nikki kind of gave me very helpfully you know these are the very helpfully you know these are the very helpfully you know these are the people or or his team did you know these people or or his team did you know these people or or his team did you know these are the people you do well to be in are the people you do well to be in are the people you do well to be in touch with in those first 100 days you touch with in those first 100 days you touch with in those first 100 days you know people in the congregation um who know people in the congregation um who know people in the congregation um who are special to the vision and um you are special to the vision and um you are special to the vision and um you realize they have a deep deep sense of realize they have a deep deep sense of realize they have a deep deep sense of Love uh loyalty to Nikki and Pippa and Love uh loyalty to Nikki and Pippa and Love uh loyalty to Nikki and Pippa and you have to work hard um at those you have to work hard um at those you have to work hard um at those relationships I think when you're in relationships I think when you're in relationships I think when you're in transition I wanted Dr down a little bit transition I wanted Dr down a little bit transition I wanted Dr down a little bit more I think it's interesting what got more I think it's interesting what got more I think it's interesting what got you here won't get you there I think you here won't get you there I think you here won't get you there I think that's very perceptive what are the that's very perceptive what are the that's very perceptive what are the former skills at Brighton or wherever former skills at Brighton or wherever former skills at Brighton or wherever that got you progress that don't seem to that got you progress that don't seem to that got you progress that don't seem to be translating as well or alternatively be translating as well or alternatively be translating as well or alternatively what new skills have you had to what new skills have you had to what new skills have you had to develop well I think they're mainly develop well I think they're mainly develop well I think they're mainly about having a smaller team that I could about having a smaller team that I could about having a smaller team that I could relate with at a very proximate level uh relate with at a very proximate level uh relate with at a very proximate level uh every day and we had quite a flat every day and we had quite a flat every day and we had quite a flat structure but U with the size and scale structure but U with the size and scale structure but U with the size and scale that I'm doing now you just have to that I'm doing now you just have to that I'm doing now you just have to accept that you can't relate daytoday accept that you can't relate daytoday accept that you can't relate daytoday with quite so many people but as I look with quite so many people but as I look with quite so many people but as I look back that was sort of my that was my back that was sort of my that was my back that was sort of my that was my mode that was that was what made it mode that was that was what made it mode that was that was what made it helpful I I like to have a lot of helpful I I like to have a lot of helpful I I like to have a lot of relational touch points and that kind of relational touch points and that kind of relational touch points and that kind of kept it going and so when you think okay kept it going and so when you think okay kept it going and so when you think okay I'm GNA have to do less of that um and I'm GNA have to do less of that um and I'm GNA have to do less of that um and go deeper with some uh that that I think

go deeper with some uh that that I think go deeper with some uh that that I think is probably be the main skill is how you is probably be the main skill is how you is probably be the main skill is how you do your relational leadership on a wider do your relational leadership on a wider do your relational leadership on a wider scale and what what are you learning in scale and what what are you learning in scale and what what are you learning in that because you're not alone in that that because you're not alone in that that because you're not alone in that challenge there's a lot of people challenge there's a lot of people challenge there's a lot of people listening I'm sure are like they're listening I'm sure are like they're listening I'm sure are like they're they're in your shoes and they're like they're in your shoes and they're like they're in your shoes and they're like now I have all these people what do I do now I have all these people what do I do now I have all these people what do I do what what would have been some early um what what would have been some early um what what would have been some early um like well begin with I I did there's no like well begin with I I did there's no like well begin with I I did there's no two ways about you've got to get two ways about you've got to get two ways about you've got to get approximate to something you can't come approximate to something you can't come approximate to something you can't come in and just do it from 10,000 fet and I in and just do it from 10,000 fet and I in and just do it from 10,000 fet and I talked to our associate here and I talked to our associate here and I talked to our associate here and I explained to her that I was going to be explained to her that I was going to be explained to her that I was going to be doing some of the things that actually doing some of the things that actually doing some of the things that actually Nikki had handed off to her and it Nikki had handed off to her and it Nikki had handed off to her and it wasn't because I didn't trust her or wasn't because I didn't trust her or wasn't because I didn't trust her or didn't think she was doing a great job didn't think she was doing a great job didn't think she was doing a great job that I needed to look under the Bonnet that I needed to look under the Bonnet that I needed to look under the Bonnet and be in those meetings get to know and be in those meetings get to know and be in those meetings get to know those people so that I knew what people those people so that I knew what people those people so that I knew what people did and what they were capable of and did and what they were capable of and did and what they were capable of and then what I've done now is just then what I've done now is just then what I've done now is just beginning actually probably now exactly beginning actually probably now exactly beginning actually probably now exactly now two years in handing those things now two years in handing those things now two years in handing those things back again and getting out uh so I think back again and getting out uh so I think back again and getting out uh so I think I'm trying to learn the skill of sort of I'm trying to learn the skill of sort of I'm trying to learn the skill of sort of being up here but then being able to be being up here but then being able to be being up here but then being able to be proximate enough when I need to be and proximate enough when I need to be and proximate enough when I need to be and not necessarily having to make all the not necessarily having to make all the not necessarily having to make all the decisions anymore or lead all the decisions anymore or lead all the decisions anymore or lead all the meetings but making sure I've got enough meetings but making sure I've got enough meetings but making sure I've got enough touch points uh because some people like touch points uh because some people like touch points uh because some people like I'm doing it my way you know I think I'm doing it my way you know I think I'm doing it my way you know I think that's the other thing uh you know I I'm that's the other thing uh you know I I'm that's the other thing uh you know I I'm doing this same job role as Nikki Gumble

doing this same job role as Nikki Gumble doing this same job role as Nikki Gumble but I'm not Nicki Gumble I'm Archie so but I'm not Nicki Gumble I'm Archie so but I'm not Nicki Gumble I'm Archie so I've got to do it the same job role in I've got to do it the same job role in I've got to do it the same job role in the way that Archie would do it and uh the way that Archie would do it and uh the way that Archie would do it and uh so I think some of that would just be so I think some of that would just be so I think some of that would just be looking at how I navigate some of that looking at how I navigate some of that looking at how I navigate some of that Team Dynamics and that relationships and Team Dynamics and that relationships and Team Dynamics and that relationships and and so on and I get and so on and I get and so on and I get um I have people asking me um are you um I have people asking me um are you um I have people asking me um are you gonna be like Nikki gonna be like Nikki gonna be like Nikki Gumble and they I can tell in the tone Gumble and they I can tell in the tone Gumble and they I can tell in the tone of the voice um are you going to be like of the voice um are you going to be like of the voice um are you going to be like Nicki gumbles either please be like Nicki gumbles either please be like Nicki gumbles either please be like Nikki Gumble oh please you're not gonna Nikki Gumble oh please you're not gonna Nikki Gumble oh please you're not gonna be like Nikki Gumble many more in the second category Gumble many more in the second category I'm I'm I'm sure no you know that's very in itive sure no you know that's very in itive sure no you know that's very in itive you know and I think it it coincides you know and I think it it coincides you know and I think it it coincides with what Henry Cloud would suggest in with what Henry Cloud would suggest in with what Henry Cloud would suggest in that book that there is a point early in that book that there is a point early in that book that there is a point early in your leadership where you really need to your leadership where you really need to your leadership where you really need to be involved and you need to earn that be involved and you need to earn that be involved and you need to earn that trust it can't be assumed and then you trust it can't be assumed and then you trust it can't be assumed and then you hand things off I'm so glad you talked hand things off I'm so glad you talked hand things off I'm so glad you talked about that Nikki I'd love to know for about that Nikki I'd love to know for about that Nikki I'd love to know for you um looking back on 17 or all of your you um looking back on 17 or all of your you um looking back on 17 or all of your time in the church the best or the time in the church the best or the time in the church the best or the easiest and the hardest what were they easiest and the hardest what were they easiest and the hardest what were they for for for you I think um you I think um you I think um uh the hardest time I think actually uh the hardest time I think actually uh the hardest time I think actually when Archie was there when was the when Archie was there when was the when Archie was there when was the associate Vic and it wasn't because of associate Vic and it wasn't because of associate Vic and it wasn't because of Archie uh but I got myself Pau up into a Archie uh but I got myself Pau up into a Archie uh but I got myself Pau up into a building project that um um thankfully building project that um um thankfully building project that um um thankfully the Lord the Lord the Lord stopped uh because we we got something

stopped uh because we we got something stopped uh because we we got something far better in the end but I I did spent far better in the end but I I did spent far better in the end but I I did spent far too much time trying to make a far too much time trying to make a far too much time trying to make a building project happen that with building project happen that with building project happen that with hindsight um I think the Holy Spirit hindsight um I think the Holy Spirit hindsight um I think the Holy Spirit stopped um but I I um and I got very stopped um but I I um and I got very stopped um but I I um and I got very worried about it and very um worried about it and very um worried about it and very um unnecessarily um so I think that was unnecessarily um so I think that was unnecessarily um so I think that was probably and then then and then having probably and then then and then having probably and then then and then having not leared from my mistakes I tried not leared from my mistakes I tried not leared from my mistakes I tried another building another building another building project which equally fail for different project which equally fail for different project which equally fail for different reasons um and I spent far too much time reasons um and I spent far too much time reasons um and I spent far too much time on that so I think um and those were on that so I think um and those were on that so I think um and those were some of the hardest times um um in a way some of the hardest times um um in a way some of the hardest times um um in a way because uh it was because uh it was because uh it was just they're a bit of a nightmare both just they're a bit of a nightmare both just they're a bit of a nightmare both of them um and a distraction from from of them um and a distraction from from of them um and a distraction from from what I should have been doing um what what I should have been doing um what what I should have been doing um what did what with the I mean I I I'm so did what with the I mean I I I'm so did what with the I mean I I I'm so blessed that I've had jobs I love I love blessed that I've had jobs I love I love blessed that I've had jobs I love I love my jobs I mean I just I loved it um I my jobs I mean I just I loved it um I my jobs I mean I just I loved it um I loved the people and I loved the people and I loved the people and I loved I just loved htb it was always loved I just loved htb it was always loved I just loved htb it was always just I love the services I love the just I love the services I love the just I love the services I love the people I love the staff meetings I love people I love the staff meetings I love people I love the staff meetings I love the team that we had um we had so you the team that we had um we had so you the team that we had um we had so you know Sandy I was so blessed to inherit a know Sandy I was so blessed to inherit a know Sandy I was so blessed to inherit a model from Sandy which was based on fun model from Sandy which was based on fun model from Sandy which was based on fun you know he always made things fun there you know he always made things fun there you know he always made things fun there was loads of laughter always uh he

was loads of laughter always uh he was loads of laughter always uh he didn't take things too seriously uh you didn't take things too seriously uh you didn't take things too seriously uh you know he always say intensity is not a know he always say intensity is not a know he always say intensity is not a fruit of the spirit you could have fun fruit of the spirit you could have fun fruit of the spirit you could have fun um and um it was um and um it was um and um it was just Sandy I I feel everything that just Sandy I I feel everything that just Sandy I I feel everything that happened certainly the everything I happened certainly the everything I happened certainly the everything I inherited I it was just a huge blessing inherited I it was just a huge blessing inherited I it was just a huge blessing that Sandy had built this culture that that Sandy had built this culture that that Sandy had built this culture that was such a fun uh affirming encouraging was such a fun uh affirming encouraging was such a fun uh affirming encouraging joyful generous loving um community and joyful generous loving um community and joyful generous loving um community and I always felt my my job was not to mess I always felt my my job was not to mess I always felt my my job was not to mess it up because he built something so it up because he built something so it up because he built something so amazing uh and actually quite sort amazing uh and actually quite sort amazing uh and actually quite sort of and you that's what is spreading of and you that's what is spreading of and you that's what is spreading around all these Church plants it's around all these Church plants it's around all these Church plants it's basically what Sandy brought um and the basically what Sandy brought um and the basically what Sandy brought um and the the freedom of the Holy Spirit the the freedom of the Holy Spirit the the freedom of the Holy Spirit the ministry of the spirit um and um it was ministry of the spirit um and um it was ministry of the spirit um and um it was a wonderful culture to be part of I just a wonderful culture to be part of I just a wonderful culture to be part of I just I you know I begged Sandy not to go when I you know I begged Sandy not to go when I you know I begged Sandy not to go when he said he was going to leave and I he said he was going to leave and I he said he was going to leave and I managed to persuade him for three years managed to persuade him for three years managed to persuade him for three years I he you know passed where he was said I he you know passed where he was said I he you know passed where he was said he was going and then it was only he was going and then it was only he was going and then it was only eventually he said he was going and I eventually he said he was going and I eventually he said he was going and I still I I met with Sandy this morning on still I I met with Sandy this morning on still I I met with Sandy this morning on Zoom you know I meet we meet every Zoom you know I meet we meet every Zoom you know I meet we meet every Monday morning with a um and I was sort Monday morning with a um and I was sort Monday morning with a um and I was sort of asking his advice what we should do of asking his advice what we should do of asking his advice what we should do in a particular situation which I where in a particular situation which I where in a particular situation which I where I really don't know what to do and I'm I really don't know what to do and I'm I really don't know what to do and I'm asking his advice um and um I you know I

asking his advice um and um I you know I asking his advice um and um I you know I still say to him I always say when I was still say to him I always say when I was still say to him I always say when I was Vicor of HGB s please come back it's Vicor of HGB s please come back it's Vicor of HGB s please come back it's like like like um we're missing you and and and he's um we're missing you and and and he's um we're missing you and and and he's he's 84 and I think he's one of the sort he's 84 and I think he's one of the sort he's 84 and I think he's one of the sort of unsung heroes of of um our times of unsung heroes of of um our times of unsung heroes of of um our times because he brought something unique to because he brought something unique to because he brought something unique to htb and um we're all living off that htb and um we're all living off that htb and um we're all living off that inheritance inheritance inheritance now you know it's it's it's interesting now you know it's it's it's interesting now you know it's it's it's interesting that you raised the building projects I that you raised the building projects I that you raised the building projects I wasn't expecting that answer but one of wasn't expecting that answer but one of wasn't expecting that answer but one of the problems I talked to a lot of the problems I talked to a lot of the problems I talked to a lot of NextGen leaders who are in issues and NextGen leaders who are in issues and NextGen leaders who are in issues and one of the very quiet problems that one of the very quiet problems that one of the very quiet problems that shows up not so much in the headlines shows up not so much in the headlines shows up not so much in the headlines but just in one-on-one but just in one-on-one but just in one-on-one conversations is unreasonable building conversations is unreasonable building conversations is unreasonable building projects that their predecessor projects that their predecessor projects that their predecessor undertook that has burdened the church undertook that has burdened the church undertook that has burdened the church significantly in this generation and I'm significantly in this generation and I'm significantly in this generation and I'm curious when you look back on it what curious when you look back on it what curious when you look back on it what what was it about those projects that what was it about those projects that what was it about those projects that was so difficult and perhaps in the end was so difficult and perhaps in the end was so difficult and perhaps in the end un wise now that you look back on it un wise now that you look back on it un wise now that you look back on it with 2020 hindsight Nikki well the first with 2020 hindsight Nikki well the first with 2020 hindsight Nikki well the first they're two different ones okay the they're two different ones okay the they're two different ones okay the second one would have been a huge second one would have been a huge second one would have been a huge advantage to Arie if we'd managed to advantage to Arie if we'd managed to advantage to Arie if we'd managed to pull it off gotcha the first one was to pull it off gotcha the first one was to pull it off gotcha the first one was to build a a a a to try and put everything build a a a a to try and put everything build a a a a to try and put everything into one building we tried to do this into one building we tried to do this into one building we tried to do this big development in Ono square and put big development in Ono square and put big development in Ono square and put every and actually because it didn't every and actually because it didn't every and actually because it didn't work the Church of England gave us three

work the Church of England gave us three work the Church of England gave us three three other buildings and we were able three other buildings and we were able three other buildings and we were able to put the theological College into one to put the theological College into one to put the theological College into one one building family life into to another one building family life into to another one building family life into to another and um uh and the staff into and we and um uh and the staff into and we and um uh and the staff into and we bought two houses in Cromwell Road for bought two houses in Cromwell Road for bought two houses in Cromwell Road for the STA so actually it worked out much the STA so actually it worked out much the STA so actually it worked out much better we had more we had more U square better we had more we had more U square better we had more we had more U square footage um if you like as a result in C footage um if you like as a result in C footage um if you like as a result in C London um by not doing it than we would London um by not doing it than we would London um by not doing it than we would have had by doing a very very expensive have had by doing a very very expensive have had by doing a very very expensive building project so that worked out the building project so that worked out the building project so that worked out the second one was to build housing for the second one was to build housing for the second one was to build housing for the clergy on the site clergy on the site clergy on the site which would have enabled um church which would have enabled um church which would have enabled um church house that to to be rebuilt and I think house that to to be rebuilt and I think house that to to be rebuilt and I think you know I I think now uh it would have you know I I think now uh it would have you know I I think now uh it would have been a huge advantage to um the kind of been a huge advantage to um the kind of been a huge advantage to um the kind of stuff that's necessary now with ch with stuff that's necessary now with ch with stuff that's necessary now with ch with that with church house if we'd been able that with church house if we'd been able that with church house if we'd been able to do it but we just couldn't do it so to do it but we just couldn't do it so to do it but we just couldn't do it so uh I don't regret the aim of the second uh I don't regret the aim of the second uh I don't regret the aim of the second building project but I just regret that building project but I just regret that building project but I just regret that I spent a lot of time it's very hard to I spent a lot of time it's very hard to I spent a lot of time it's very hard to do building projects in central London do building projects in central London do building projects in central London where your neighbors are also your where your neighbors are also your where your neighbors are also your parishioners because neighbors always parishioners because neighbors always parishioners because neighbors always object to building projects and it's object to building projects and it's object to building projects and it's fine if you're a developer to have fine if you're a developer to have fine if you're a developer to have neighbors objecting but if you're a neighbors objecting but if you're a neighbors objecting but if you're a Vicor they're your parishioners and you Vicor they're your parishioners and you Vicor they're your parishioners and you you can't really go into battle with you can't really go into battle with you can't really go into battle with your parishioners and I think that was your parishioners and I think that was your parishioners and I think that was what I hadn't quite worked out and that what I hadn't quite worked out and that what I hadn't quite worked out and that was the mistake I made in trying to do was the mistake I made in trying to do was the mistake I made in trying to do these things

these things these things because at the end of the day uh it it because at the end of the day uh it it because at the end of the day uh it it even if the council approved if the even if the council approved if the even if the council approved if the neighbors didn't like it you w it neighbors didn't like it you w it neighbors didn't like it you w it probably wasn't a good probably wasn't a good probably wasn't a good idea I want to ask you both one question idea I want to ask you both one question idea I want to ask you both one question and I'm not sure I'm going to get an and I'm not sure I'm going to get an and I'm not sure I'm going to get an answer to this answer to this answer to this because I so I've been to Holy Trinity because I so I've been to Holy Trinity because I so I've been to Holy Trinity Brompton and to leadership conference Brompton and to leadership conference Brompton and to leadership conference twice I was very impressed the first twice I was very impressed the first twice I was very impressed the first time I was more impressed the second time I was more impressed the second time I was more impressed the second time and what really impressed me the time and what really impressed me the time and what really impressed me the second time was the culture second time was the culture second time was the culture uh we have a lot of culture problems in uh we have a lot of culture problems in uh we have a lot of culture problems in the church these days there's more and the church these days there's more and the church these days there's more and more reports of toxic culture and what I more reports of toxic culture and what I more reports of toxic culture and what I found at Alpha and at htb was a very found at Alpha and at htb was a very found at Alpha and at htb was a very different culture a very different vibe different culture a very different vibe different culture a very different vibe and I suspect the reason I'm going to and I suspect the reason I'm going to and I suspect the reason I'm going to get a not very good answer to this get a not very good answer to this get a not very good answer to this question is because at the heart of it question is because at the heart of it question is because at the heart of it is humility and anybody who has listened is humility and anybody who has listened is humility and anybody who has listened to this interview so far would see that to this interview so far would see that to this interview so far would see that you've taken almost no credit for you've taken almost no credit for you've taken almost no credit for anything uh blamed Sandy Miller for all anything uh blamed Sandy Miller for all anything uh blamed Sandy Miller for all the success that you've had over the the success that you've had over the the success that you've had over the last 20 years I say that you know last 20 years I say that you know last 20 years I say that you know affectionately and it's just something I affectionately and it's just something I affectionately and it's just something I really see but I think the church has a really see but I think the church has a really see but I think the church has a culture problem and I would love if as culture problem and I would love if as culture problem and I would love if as best as you could talk about what you best as you could talk about what you best as you could talk about what you have intentionally tried to build into have intentionally tried to build into have intentionally tried to build into the culture of the things that you're the culture of the things that you're the culture of the things that you're leading and I'd like both of you to to

leading and I'd like both of you to to leading and I'd like both of you to to do a take on it because I think it's do a take on it because I think it's do a take on it because I think it's something I wish was present in so many something I wish was present in so many something I wish was present in so many other places and I wish I had more of it other places and I wish I had more of it other places and I wish I had more of it so Nikki any Reflections on the culture so Nikki any Reflections on the culture so Nikki any Reflections on the culture that has been built around Alpha and htb I I mean I think that that that htb I I mean I think that that that Sandy definitely built this culture of Sandy definitely built this culture of Sandy definitely built this culture of um huge um huge um huge encouragement um and encouragement um and encouragement um and um an enormous Security in knowing that um an enormous Security in knowing that um an enormous Security in knowing that he was he was right behind you it was he was he was right behind you it was he was he was right behind you it was impossible to do anything wrong really impossible to do anything wrong really impossible to do anything wrong really because he was so behind you and so because he was so behind you and so because he was so behind you and so backing you um and backing you um and backing you um and um every you know Alpha is um every you know Alpha is um every you know Alpha is is sometimes people look at Alpha and is sometimes people look at Alpha and is sometimes people look at Alpha and they think um oh so that's why hdb's they think um oh so that's why hdb's they think um oh so that's why hdb's grown so much um because of it's like grown so much um because of it's like grown so much um because of it's like Alpha produced Alpha produced Alpha produced htb but I would say the opposite way htb but I would say the opposite way htb but I would say the opposite way around uh one of our um the person who around uh one of our um the person who around uh one of our um the person who first headed up the first national first headed up the first national first headed up the first national director of Alfred in the USA who had director of Alfred in the USA who had director of Alfred in the USA who had been a Management Consultant a partner been a Management Consultant a partner been a Management Consultant a partner of mcken senior partner of mcken he said of mcken senior partner of mcken he said of mcken senior partner of mcken he said Alpha is HGB in a bottle and he said I Alpha is HGB in a bottle and he said I Alpha is HGB in a bottle and he said I want to I want to see that exported to want to I want to see that exported to want to I want to see that exported to America and um uh and I think that

America and um uh and I think that America and um uh and I think that everything that we tried to put into everything that we tried to put into everything that we tried to put into Alpha was htb you know there's there's Alpha was htb you know there's there's Alpha was htb you know there's there's the hopefully the sort of bibl it's the hopefully the sort of bibl it's the hopefully the sort of bibl it's about Jesus it's the whole thing is about Jesus it's the whole thing is about Jesus it's the whole thing is about Jesus Jesus is is Central um to about Jesus Jesus is is Central um to about Jesus Jesus is is Central um to everything that we do and um so you know everything that we do and um so you know everything that we do and um so you know Alpha is all about Jesus and um but then Alpha is all about Jesus and um but then Alpha is all about Jesus and um but then there's a central place the Holy Spirit there's a central place the Holy Spirit there's a central place the Holy Spirit and um you know Biblical teaching the and um you know Biblical teaching the and um you know Biblical teaching the the teaching of uh week by week expanding the Bible um uh week by week expanding the Bible um uh the believing in the authority of the uh the believing in the authority of the uh the believing in the authority of the scriptures um not wanting to change the scriptures um not wanting to change the scriptures um not wanting to change the message at all Jesus is the same message at all Jesus is the same message at all Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever but the yesterday today and forever but the yesterday today and forever but the packaging has to packaging has to packaging has to change that was what Sandy was you know change that was what Sandy was you know change that was what Sandy was you know s would say when he was growing up you s would say when he was growing up you s would say when he was growing up you wore a suit for Sunday lunch and and wore a suit for Sunday lunch and and wore a suit for Sunday lunch and and people don't do that anymore but the people don't do that anymore but the people don't do that anymore but the church gets stuck in what the the the church gets stuck in what the the the church gets stuck in what the the the the past rather than have a contemporary the past rather than have a contemporary the past rather than have a contemporary packaging so we've tried to make the packaging so we've tried to make the packaging so we've tried to make the packaging as which means you need to packaging as which means you need to packaging as which means you need to change and other Sandy saying with Chang change and other Sandy saying with Chang change and other Sandy saying with Chang is here to is here to is here to stay we keep changing because the stay we keep changing because the stay we keep changing because the culture keeps changing and therefore the culture keeps changing and therefore the culture keeps changing and therefore the way in which you present the gospel has way in which you present the gospel has way in which you present the gospel has to change so the the message uh um and

to change so the the message uh um and to change so the the message uh um and then the culture of the small groups was then the culture of the small groups was then the culture of the small groups was listening uh Paul till the First Act of listening uh Paul till the First Act of listening uh Paul till the First Act of love is to listen um and love is to listen um and love is to listen um and to the culture of of um is based on to the culture of of um is based on to the culture of of um is based on Proverbs 20 verse5 in the heart of every Proverbs 20 verse5 in the heart of every Proverbs 20 verse5 in the heart of every human being is a deep well and the wise human being is a deep well and the wise human being is a deep well and the wise person draws it out and it's that person draws it out and it's that person draws it out and it's that valuing of every human being whether valuing of every human being whether valuing of every human being whether they're an atheist agnostic other they're an atheist agnostic other they're an atheist agnostic other religion that in their heart is a deep religion that in their heart is a deep religion that in their heart is a deep well creating the image of God and we well creating the image of God and we well creating the image of God and we draw out from that well what is in there draw out from that well what is in there draw out from that well what is in there so it's a listening culture and the same so it's a listening culture and the same so it's a listening culture and the same way in leading you to have the you know way in leading you to have the you know way in leading you to have the you know I I I I know that Arty will lead by by I I I I know that Arty will lead by by I I I I know that Arty will lead by by listening he'll he'll been listening to listening he'll he'll been listening to listening he'll he'll been listening to all those people you can hear that all those people you can hear that all those people you can hear that already in his answers he's been already in his answers he's been already in his answers he's been listening um and drawing out the the the listening um and drawing out the the the listening um and drawing out the the the the gold that is in every member of that the gold that is in every member of that the gold that is in every member of that team um and but an atmosphere that is team um and but an atmosphere that is team um and but an atmosphere that is encouraging where people don't are not encouraging where people don't are not encouraging where people don't are not rude to each other or uh argumentative rude to each other or uh argumentative rude to each other or uh argumentative or but but one that is yes there are or but but one that is yes there are or but but one that is yes there are healthy tensions it's good to have healthy tensions it's good to have healthy tensions it's good to have different views but it's done in an different views but it's done in an different views but it's done in an attitude of of huge respect and honoring attitude of of huge respect and honoring attitude of of huge respect and honoring of one another not honoring of the of one another not honoring of the of one another not honoring of the leaders and putting them on a pedestal leaders and putting them on a pedestal leaders and putting them on a pedestal but an honoring of everyone including but an honoring of everyone including but an honoring of everyone including the leaders an honoring of the people the leaders an honoring of the people the leaders an honoring of the people who who are the prison leevers and who who are the prison leevers and who who are the prison leevers and honoring of the people who who do honoring of the people who who do honoring of the people who who do whatever job but but not excluding

whatever job but but not excluding whatever job but but not excluding honoring the leaders uh honoring honoring the leaders uh honoring honoring the leaders uh honoring everybody um it's a culture of of um everybody um it's a culture of of um everybody um it's a culture of of um love and respect and and hospitality and love and respect and and hospitality and love and respect and and hospitality and encouragement it's a it's a great place encouragement it's a it's a great place encouragement it's a it's a great place to be this a Wonder I've always enjoyed to be this a Wonder I've always enjoyed to be this a Wonder I've always enjoyed look forward to all the meetings because look forward to all the meetings because look forward to all the meetings because that you knew that it was that no one that you knew that it was that no one that you knew that it was that no one you were going to be Lee feeling you were going to be Lee feeling you were going to be Lee feeling encouraged R I'd love your take like encouraged R I'd love your take like encouraged R I'd love your take like what parts of the culture have you what parts of the culture have you what parts of the culture have you noticed and what are you trying to uh noticed and what are you trying to uh noticed and what are you trying to uh preserve or create culturally as vicer preserve or create culturally as vicer preserve or create culturally as vicer of htb I think it's all that Nikki's of htb I think it's all that Nikki's of htb I think it's all that Nikki's just said it's Alpha is not well I don't just said it's Alpha is not well I don't just said it's Alpha is not well I don't see it as a kind of course or a program see it as a kind of course or a program see it as a kind of course or a program it's what we call is an operating system it's what we call is an operating system it's what we call is an operating system it is it kind of is our church and if it is it kind of is our church and if it is it kind of is our church and if you look at the elements of alpha you you look at the elements of alpha you you look at the elements of alpha you know it's gener it's generosity in terms know it's gener it's generosity in terms know it's gener it's generosity in terms of open-heartedness of open-heartedness of open-heartedness warmth kindness Hospitality really uh warmth kindness Hospitality really uh warmth kindness Hospitality really uh and uh then of course it's the power of and uh then of course it's the power of and uh then of course it's the power of Storytelling you know listening to H Storytelling you know listening to H Storytelling you know listening to H people uh it's the power of the holy people uh it's the power of the holy people uh it's the power of the holy spirit that changes lives and I think spirit that changes lives and I think spirit that changes lives and I think that that's sort of the culture of of that that's sort of the culture of of that that's sort of the culture of of htb htb htb and you know that's why I I lead a small and you know that's why I I lead a small and you know that's why I I lead a small group every time on Alpa it's partly group every time on Alpa it's partly group every time on Alpa it's partly because I want to it's mainly because I because I want to it's mainly because I because I want to it's mainly because I want people to become Christians it's

want people to become Christians it's want people to become Christians it's secondly because I want to know actually secondly because I want to know actually secondly because I want to know actually what people are really thinking who what people are really thinking who what people are really thinking who don't go to church and thirdly it's don't go to church and thirdly it's don't go to church and thirdly it's because I want um Alpha to be at the because I want um Alpha to be at the because I want um Alpha to be at the heart of what we do as a culture in our heart of what we do as a culture in our heart of what we do as a culture in our church and by my doing that I guess church and by my doing that I guess church and by my doing that I guess that's it rubs off on me and I oh that's that's it rubs off on me and I oh that's that's it rubs off on me and I oh that's right um we listen to people we're right um we listen to people we're right um we listen to people we're welcoming we're warm we invite people to welcoming we're warm we invite people to welcoming we're warm we invite people to things we talk about Jesus in a easy way things we talk about Jesus in a easy way things we talk about Jesus in a easy way and I think that's what I notice in the and I think that's what I notice in the and I think that's what I notice in the culture of the culture of the culture of the church I it's so helpful uh I'll just church I it's so helpful uh I'll just church I it's so helpful uh I'll just add my two cents in I I just honestly I add my two cents in I I just honestly I add my two cents in I I just honestly I see such a deep humility there and you see such a deep humility there and you see such a deep humility there and you know this time around I was fortunate I know this time around I was fortunate I know this time around I was fortunate I was able to be in the green room and was able to be in the green room and was able to be in the green room and backstage and at different events and it backstage and at different events and it backstage and at different events and it just seems to permeate that and I think just seems to permeate that and I think just seems to permeate that and I think we're you know humility is often lacking we're you know humility is often lacking we're you know humility is often lacking sometimes in Christianity but I just see sometimes in Christianity but I just see sometimes in Christianity but I just see it so well lived out and then there is it so well lived out and then there is it so well lived out and then there is an inherent honoring of others and I an inherent honoring of others and I an inherent honoring of others and I think as people listen back to this think as people listen back to this think as people listen back to this interview they'll pick up on that but interview they'll pick up on that but interview they'll pick up on that but I'm gonna continue to be a student of I'm gonna continue to be a student of I'm gonna continue to be a student of your culture I really am I'm very your culture I really am I'm very your culture I really am I'm very impressed it deeply impacts one other impressed it deeply impacts one other impressed it deeply impacts one other thing the thing I picked up when I was thing the thing I picked up when I was thing the thing I picked up when I was first at htb which I hadn't encountered first at htb which I hadn't encountered first at htb which I hadn't encountered before was this kind of can do via this before was this kind of can do via this before was this kind of can do via this sense that With God all things are sense that With God all things are sense that With God all things are possible possible possible and I think it's the probably the Having

and I think it's the probably the Having and I think it's the probably the Having the Holy Spirit right at the heart of the Holy Spirit right at the heart of the Holy Spirit right at the heart of every everything you you expect big you every everything you you expect big you every everything you you expect big you believe God for things and that I think believe God for things and that I think believe God for things and that I think is amazing and it's part of the culture is amazing and it's part of the culture is amazing and it's part of the culture as as as well yeah and that combined with well yeah and that combined with well yeah and that combined with humility is a powerful powerful uh humility is a powerful powerful uh humility is a powerful powerful uh combination and an an encouragement of combination and an an encouragement of combination and an an encouragement of each other it's a very encouraging each other it's a very encouraging each other it's a very encouraging culture so anyway I'm just taking notes culture so anyway I'm just taking notes culture so anyway I'm just taking notes thank you so much um anything else thank you so much um anything else thank you so much um anything else either of you would like to share either of you would like to share either of you would like to share anything we didn't cover that you would anything we didn't cover that you would anything we didn't cover that you would like to cover one of the things I've like to cover one of the things I've like to cover one of the things I've just thought about for myself in the just thought about for myself in the just thought about for myself in the last couple of years is you know to say last couple of years is you know to say last couple of years is you know to say there wasn't when we left where we were there wasn't when we left where we were there wasn't when we left where we were before in Brighton to come to before in Brighton to come to before in Brighton to come to htb there wasn't a push factor for us htb there wasn't a push factor for us htb there wasn't a push factor for us and what I've noticed is it's and what I've noticed is it's and what I've noticed is it's extraordinary maybe it's back to what extraordinary maybe it's back to what extraordinary maybe it's back to what Nikki was saying right at the beginning Nikki was saying right at the beginning Nikki was saying right at the beginning about his own trans I you know I love about his own trans I you know I love about his own trans I you know I love the people at htb now I didn't that's the people at htb now I didn't that's the people at htb now I didn't that's been the greatest surprise to me I been the greatest surprise to me I been the greatest surprise to me I didn't think it would be possible to didn't think it would be possible to didn't think it would be possible to love the people that I at Brighton I love the people that I at Brighton I love the people that I at Brighton I don't think I love anyone as much as I don't think I love anyone as much as I don't think I love anyone as much as I love people in Brighton and I love the love people in Brighton and I love the love people in Brighton and I love the church here and I just think it's very church here and I just think it's very church here and I just think it's very kind of um God to do that um because it kind of um God to do that um because it kind of um God to do that um because it means that you're not just doing a job means that you're not just doing a job means that you're not just doing a job you feel like no no no I was meant to you feel like no no no I was meant to you feel like no no no I was meant to come here and I I enjoy it so that's come here and I I enjoy it so that's come here and I I enjoy it so that's been a real um nice

been a real um nice been a real um nice surprise Nikki anything you want to surprise Nikki anything you want to surprise Nikki anything you want to touch on before you wrap up that's so touch on before you wrap up that's so touch on before you wrap up that's so good because at the end of the day you good because at the end of the day you good because at the end of the day you know it's all about Jesus and it's all know it's all about Jesus and it's all know it's all about Jesus and it's all about love that's you know about love that's you know about love that's you know that's that's what everybody's looking that's that's what everybody's looking that's that's what everybody's looking for that why do people come on Alpha why for that why do people come on Alpha why for that why do people come on Alpha why did people why do everybody's looking did people why do everybody's looking did people why do everybody's looking for love everyone's looking and and for love everyone's looking and and for love everyone's looking and and supremely you find that that that you're supremely you find that that that you're supremely you find that that that you're loved by God that's one of the things loved by God that's one of the things loved by God that's one of the things that that Archie says to himself every that that Archie says to himself every that that Archie says to himself every I'm a Child of God a much loved child of I'm a Child of God a much loved child of I'm a Child of God a much loved child of God and God and God and um the heart of of HGB I hope is is um the heart of of HGB I hope is is um the heart of of HGB I hope is is Jesus the message of Jesus which is the Jesus the message of Jesus which is the Jesus the message of Jesus which is the most powerful message in the world and most powerful message in the world and most powerful message in the world and um what what Jesus you if you sum up the um what what Jesus you if you sum up the um what what Jesus you if you sum up the teaching of the New Testament it's God teaching of the New Testament it's God teaching of the New Testament it's God loves you love God love one another and loves you love God love one another and loves you love God love one another and that's basically what we're trying to do that's basically what we're trying to do that's basically what we're trying to do um is let people know that God loves um is let people know that God loves um is let people know that God loves them Jesus died for them the holy spirit them Jesus died for them the holy spirit them Jesus died for them the holy spirit gives them the experience of God's love gives them the experience of God's love gives them the experience of God's love and um our response we love because he and um our response we love because he and um our response we love because he first loved us we love God and we love first loved us we love God and we love first loved us we love God and we love one another and if you come into a one another and if you come into a one another and if you come into a genuine atmosphere of love it's life genuine atmosphere of love it's life genuine atmosphere of love it's life transforming I think that's what people transforming I think that's what people transforming I think that's what people experience on alha they come into an experience on alha they come into an experience on alha they come into an atmosphere of love where they are loved atmosphere of love where they are loved atmosphere of love where they are loved unconditionally wholeheartedly unconditionally wholeheartedly unconditionally wholeheartedly continually I mean it's like that's how

continually I mean it's like that's how continually I mean it's like that's how God loves us it's how we're to love one God loves us it's how we're to love one God loves us it's how we're to love one another and if if you come into an another and if if you come into an another and if if you come into an atmosphere of love it's it's so atmosphere of love it's it's so atmosphere of love it's it's so different from the world it's so different from the world it's so different from the world it's so different from the culture around and different from the culture around and different from the culture around and it's that is what so it's that is what so it's that is what so attractive H well I got to tell you this attractive H well I got to tell you this attractive H well I got to tell you this has been very inspiring very has been very inspiring very has been very inspiring very encouraging and convicting for me so I encouraging and convicting for me so I encouraging and convicting for me so I want to thank you for uh sharing so want to thank you for uh sharing so want to thank you for uh sharing so generously of your time and expertise generously of your time and expertise generously of your time and expertise websites where people can find both you websites where people can find both you websites where people can find both you online and the ministry and work you're online and the ministry and work you're online and the ministry and work you're involved involved involved in I'm just htb dorg and it has a very in I'm just htb dorg and it has a very in I'm just htb dorg and it has a very expansive social media yeah you can expansive social media yeah you can expansive social media yeah you can follow Archie on you can follow Archie follow Archie on you can follow Archie follow Archie on you can follow Archie on Instagram on Instagram on Instagram and and x Facebook and and x Facebook and and x Facebook everywhere Nicki Gumble on the other you're a delightful follow and we got to you're a delightful follow and we got to mention the Bible in one year which you mention the Bible in one year which you mention the Bible in one year which you contined to do every year you and Pippa contined to do every year you and Pippa contined to do every year you and Pippa which is fantastic and then uh what's which is fantastic and then uh what's which is fantastic and then uh what's the alpha the alpha the alpha website alpha.org website alpha.org website alpha.org alpha.org great and I'm glad it's alpha.org great and I'm glad it's alpha.org great and I'm glad it's getting into America more and more getting into America more and more getting into America more and more churches are embracing it and certainly churches are embracing it and certainly churches are embracing it and certainly here in Canada we're running it at here in Canada we're running it at here in Canada we're running it at Conexus church and just seeing Conexus church and just seeing Conexus church and just seeing extraordinary extraordinary life change extraordinary extraordinary life change extraordinary extraordinary life change and I want to thank you both for your and I want to thank you both for your and I want to thank you both for your generosity of time and spirit today generosity of time and spirit today generosity of time and spirit today thank thank thank you so much thank you kri it's been

you so much thank you kri it's been you so much thank you kri it's been really great chat