Inside Tim Keller's Mind: His Preaching, DNA, and Rule of Life

So, welcome to a special edition of the So, welcome to a special edition of the state of the church segment here on the state of the church segment here on the state of the church segment here on the podcast. We're doing these one of these podcast. We're doing these one of these podcast. We're doing these one of these a month every month. And I'm here with a month every month. And I'm here with a month every month. And I'm here with my good friend and CEO of the Bara my good friend and CEO of the Bara my good friend and CEO of the Bara Group, David Kinnaman. And you got a Group, David Kinnaman. And you got a Group, David Kinnaman. And you got a brand new study really on the brand new study really on the brand new study really on the relationships of today's pastors. And it relationships of today's pastors. And it relationships of today's pastors. And it covers marriage, parenting, covers marriage, parenting, covers marriage, parenting, interpersonal connections. Last month, interpersonal connections. Last month, interpersonal connections. Last month, we talked about interpersonal. Today, we talked about interpersonal. Today, we talked about interpersonal. Today, we're going to drill down on parenting. we're going to drill down on parenting. we're going to drill down on parenting. Um, what's some of the data showing us Um, what's some of the data showing us Um, what's some of the data showing us about pastoring today and parenting? about pastoring today and parenting? about pastoring today and parenting? >> Well, we have this great new report >> Well, we have this great new report >> Well, we have this great new report focusing on how pastors are doing in all focusing on how pastors are doing in all focusing on how pastors are doing in all of their relationships, their marriage, of their relationships, their marriage, of their relationships, their marriage, their parenting, their friendships. So, their parenting, their friendships. So, their parenting, their friendships. So, we encourage you to take a look at that. we encourage you to take a look at that. we encourage you to take a look at that. Uh, some of the findings in this Uh, some of the findings in this Uh, some of the findings in this particular study focus on uh on particular study focus on uh on particular study focus on uh on parenting and we see there are at least parenting and we see there are at least parenting and we see there are at least five different challenges that pastors five different challenges that pastors five different challenges that pastors identify. Managing financial stress and identify. Managing financial stress and identify. Managing financial stress and expenses when it comes to being a expenses when it comes to being a expenses when it comes to being a parent. uh managing the screen my own parent. uh managing the screen my own parent. uh managing the screen my own screen time and technology use. So screen time and technology use. So screen time and technology use. So pastors uh rank that second uh and then pastors uh rank that second uh and then pastors uh rank that second uh and then helping my children with their helping my children with their helping my children with their interpersonal relationships with others interpersonal relationships with others interpersonal relationships with others number three. Uh addressing my own number three. Uh addressing my own number three. Uh addressing my own mental health and self-care in terms of mental health and self-care in terms of mental health and self-care in terms of my parenting and then managing my my parenting and then managing my my parenting and then managing my children's technology use was last. Um children's technology use was last. Um children's technology use was last. Um and and all those are and and all those are and and all those are >> kind of similar. They're between 32% >> kind of similar. They're between 32% >> kind of similar. They're between 32% down to 27%. So they're all kind of a down to 27%. So they're all kind of a down to 27%. So they're all kind of a constellation of of factors. I think constellation of of factors. I think constellation of of factors. I think it's really good and actually healthy it's really good and actually healthy it's really good and actually healthy that pastors are admitting that some of that pastors are admitting that some of that pastors are admitting that some of their own uh culpability, their own their own uh culpability, their own their own uh culpability, their own screen time, their own usage of

screen time, their own usage of screen time, their own usage of technology, their own mental health technology, their own mental health technology, their own mental health matters in how they're modeling that for matters in how they're modeling that for matters in how they're modeling that for their own children. I'm I'm a pastor's their own children. I'm I'm a pastor's their own children. I'm I'm a pastor's kid, so you know, knowing uh my dad kid, so you know, knowing uh my dad kid, so you know, knowing uh my dad ministered in a period of time when ministered in a period of time when ministered in a period of time when there wasn't the ubiquity of of cell there wasn't the ubiquity of of cell there wasn't the ubiquity of of cell phones and and screens, but he did a phones and and screens, but he did a phones and and screens, but he did a great job of taking weekends. He had a great job of taking weekends. He had a great job of taking weekends. He had a he he he saw a counselor and a he he he saw a counselor and a he he he saw a counselor and a therapist. Um I still remember so many therapist. Um I still remember so many therapist. Um I still remember so many good things about you know kind of his good things about you know kind of his good things about you know kind of his leadership and his uh his leadership and his uh his leadership and his uh his self-awareness. uh my my dad Gary self-awareness. uh my my dad Gary self-awareness. uh my my dad Gary Kenman. Uh but I think it's, you know, Kenman. Uh but I think it's, you know, Kenman. Uh but I think it's, you know, good for us to see some some good for us to see some some good for us to see some some self-awareness among pastors talking self-awareness among pastors talking self-awareness among pastors talking about, you know, financial stress, their about, you know, financial stress, their about, you know, financial stress, their own screen time, um helping their kids own screen time, um helping their kids own screen time, um helping their kids with, you know, managing interpersonal with, you know, managing interpersonal with, you know, managing interpersonal relationships, assessing, you know, our relationships, assessing, you know, our relationships, assessing, you know, our our own mental health, and then managing our own mental health, and then managing our own mental health, and then managing children's technologies. Those those children's technologies. Those those children's technologies. Those those round out the top five things that round out the top five things that round out the top five things that pastors as parents are thinking about. pastors as parents are thinking about. pastors as parents are thinking about. >> I mean, you've got three kids. What >> I mean, you've got three kids. What >> I mean, you've got three kids. What nobody ever told me is that they get nobody ever told me is that they get nobody ever told me is that they get more expensive as they get older into more expensive as they get older into more expensive as they get older into their teenage years. I thought once you their teenage years. I thought once you their teenage years. I thought once you got through diapers and you know baby got through diapers and you know baby got through diapers and you know baby food and that kind of stuff it would get food and that kind of stuff it would get food and that kind of stuff it would get cheaper and nope it just gets more cheaper and nope it just gets more cheaper and nope it just gets more expensive until they're launched. So and expensive until they're launched. So and expensive until they're launched. So and I get that and I think that's a real I get that and I think that's a real I get that and I think that's a real issue for churches too. I think we have issue for churches too. I think we have issue for churches too. I think we have to address the compensation issue.

to address the compensation issue. to address the compensation issue. Inflation's gone crazy. I mean the cost Inflation's gone crazy. I mean the cost Inflation's gone crazy. I mean the cost of everything is up and sometimes we of everything is up and sometimes we of everything is up and sometimes we have these old ideas of what a fair have these old ideas of what a fair have these old ideas of what a fair salary is not just for senior pastors salary is not just for senior pastors salary is not just for senior pastors but for church staff. So, I'm really but for church staff. So, I'm really but for church staff. So, I'm really excited to see the church tackle that excited to see the church tackle that excited to see the church tackle that and not create like crazy affluence and not create like crazy affluence and not create like crazy affluence among pastors, but just like how about a among pastors, but just like how about a among pastors, but just like how about a living wage? That would be a good thing. living wage? That would be a good thing. living wage? That would be a good thing. >> Yeah. No doubt. Well, and I think >> Yeah. No doubt. Well, and I think >> Yeah. No doubt. Well, and I think there's also some trends we're seeing there's also some trends we're seeing there's also some trends we're seeing with pastors looking at, you know, side with pastors looking at, you know, side with pastors looking at, you know, side hustles and biocational ministry. Um, hustles and biocational ministry. Um, hustles and biocational ministry. Um, and you know, each person has to kind of and you know, each person has to kind of and you know, each person has to kind of navigate some of those areas of of life navigate some of those areas of of life navigate some of those areas of of life calling and capacity for themselves. But calling and capacity for themselves. But calling and capacity for themselves. But um you know I think this this this new um you know I think this this this new um you know I think this this this new report uh the relationships of today's report uh the relationships of today's report uh the relationships of today's pastors it's a a part of a larger pastors it's a a part of a larger pastors it's a a part of a larger flourishing family series where we're flourishing family series where we're flourishing family series where we're looking at how are families doing in our looking at how are families doing in our looking at how are families doing in our society and overall pastors are doing society and overall pastors are doing society and overall pastors are doing pretty well but their relationships are pretty well but their relationships are pretty well but their relationships are the one area as we talked about in the the one area as we talked about in the the one area as we talked about in the last month's episode. It's the one area last month's episode. It's the one area last month's episode. It's the one area where they actually don't have as high a where they actually don't have as high a where they actually don't have as high a flourishing score as practicing flourishing score as practicing flourishing score as practicing Christians. So they don't have enough Christians. So they don't have enough Christians. So they don't have enough friendships. we don't have enough uh you friendships. we don't have enough uh you friendships. we don't have enough uh you know resources, professional therapists know resources, professional therapists know resources, professional therapists and counselors and spiritual directors.

and counselors and spiritual directors. and counselors and spiritual directors. Um and and so relationally pastors Um and and so relationally pastors Um and and so relationally pastors that's I think the big the big that's I think the big the big that's I think the big the big opportunity that this this book this uh opportunity that this this book this uh opportunity that this this book this uh report gives us. There's sort of 10 key report gives us. There's sort of 10 key report gives us. There's sort of 10 key insights on marriage on parenting on the insights on marriage on parenting on the insights on marriage on parenting on the interpersonal connections that define interpersonal connections that define interpersonal connections that define ministry. And we really want to help use ministry. And we really want to help use ministry. And we really want to help use this research as a bit of a mirror for this research as a bit of a mirror for this research as a bit of a mirror for you to look at your own issues, your own you to look at your own issues, your own you to look at your own issues, your own challenges. Again, the best kind of challenges. Again, the best kind of challenges. Again, the best kind of leader is a very self-aware leader. And leader is a very self-aware leader. And leader is a very self-aware leader. And uh and and use this research to have uh and and use this research to have uh and and use this research to have good meaningful conversations with your good meaningful conversations with your good meaningful conversations with your spouse, with your kids, with your with spouse, with your kids, with your with spouse, with your kids, with your with your board, with your colleagues, with your board, with your colleagues, with your board, with your colleagues, with with friends in ministry, and take a with friends in ministry, and take a with friends in ministry, and take a look at how you're doing relationally so look at how you're doing relationally so look at how you're doing relationally so that you can be be prepared for the next that you can be be prepared for the next that you can be be prepared for the next the next lap, the next season of the next lap, the next season of the next lap, the next season of ministry in a healthy uh relationally ministry in a healthy uh relationally ministry in a healthy uh relationally grounded way. grounded way. grounded way. >> I know you and I both share a real heart >> I know you and I both share a real heart >> I know you and I both share a real heart for pastors and we want our leaders for pastors and we want our leaders for pastors and we want our leaders listening to really thrive. There is listening to really thrive. There is listening to really thrive. There is more data and I think it is good to take more data and I think it is good to take more data and I think it is good to take a look in the mirror. I know it saved my a look in the mirror. I know it saved my a look in the mirror. I know it saved my probably life a couple of times in probably life a couple of times in probably life a couple of times in ministry to look in the mirror and go ministry to look in the mirror and go ministry to look in the mirror and go like uhoh, we got some problems we need like uhoh, we got some problems we need like uhoh, we got some problems we need to address here. So if you want to take to address here. So if you want to take to address here. So if you want to take a closer look, go to a closer look, go to a closer look, go to stateoftheurch.com/carry.

stateoftheurch.com/carry. stateoftheurch.com/carry. There's a treasure trove of data there. There's a treasure trove of data there. There's a treasure trove of data there. You have been updating it in real time, You have been updating it in real time, You have been updating it in real time, month by month. Uh a ton of studies. month by month. Uh a ton of studies. month by month. Uh a ton of studies. Dave and I will be catching up every Dave and I will be catching up every Dave and I will be catching up every month here on the podcast with this month here on the podcast with this month here on the podcast with this special segment. And now to today's special segment. And now to today's special segment. And now to today's regularly scheduled episode. people are regularly scheduled episode. people are regularly scheduled episode. people are not argued into the kingdom and people not argued into the kingdom and people not argued into the kingdom and people are not scolded into the kingdom. And I are not scolded into the kingdom. And I are not scolded into the kingdom. And I think I think he knew that if he just think I think he knew that if he just think I think he knew that if he just rails against people in their sin and rails against people in their sin and rails against people in their sin and speaks again as if he forgets what it speaks again as if he forgets what it speaks again as if he forgets what it was like to be lost too was like to be lost too was like to be lost too from this balcony of superiority. from this balcony of superiority. from this balcony of superiority. Well, what are people going to do? Let's Well, what are people going to do? Let's Well, what are people going to do? Let's say he succeeds in causing people to say he succeeds in causing people to say he succeeds in causing people to feel lousy, causing people to feel feel lousy, causing people to feel feel lousy, causing people to feel guilty. guilty. guilty. They're just going to run from their bad They're just going to run from their bad They're just going to run from their bad works to their good works. Welcome to works to their good works. Welcome to works to their good works. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. It's Carrie here and I hope on YouTube. It's Carrie here and I hope on YouTube. It's Carrie here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive our time together today helps you thrive our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Have you ever in life and leadership. Have you ever in life and leadership. Have you ever wondered what it is like to be inside wondered what it is like to be inside wondered what it is like to be inside Tim Keller's mind? Well, Matt Smethers Tim Keller's mind? Well, Matt Smethers Tim Keller's mind? Well, Matt Smethers has probably listened to more sermons of has probably listened to more sermons of has probably listened to more sermons of Tim Keller, more of his teachings than Tim Keller, more of his teachings than Tim Keller, more of his teachings than anyone except possibly Kathy and one anyone except possibly Kathy and one anyone except possibly Kathy and one other member of Tim Keller's team. He other member of Tim Keller's team. He other member of Tim Keller's team. He put it together in a great new book and put it together in a great new book and put it together in a great new book and we talk about it like what made Keller's we talk about it like what made Keller's we talk about it like what made Keller's preaching so amazing. Uh what about his preaching so amazing. Uh what about his preaching so amazing. Uh what about his DNA? What really made him tick? And what DNA? What really made him tick? And what DNA? What really made him tick? And what about a rule of life? Uh did he have about a rule of life? Uh did he have about a rule of life? Uh did he have one? Kind of. We kind of go there. I one? Kind of. We kind of go there. I one? Kind of. We kind of go there. I think you're really going to enjoy this.

think you're really going to enjoy this. think you're really going to enjoy this. We got a lot of Tim Keller himself in We got a lot of Tim Keller himself in We got a lot of Tim Keller himself in the archive as well, which we'll link to the archive as well, which we'll link to the archive as well, which we'll link to in the show notes. Hey, we're having a in the show notes. Hey, we're having a in the show notes. Hey, we're having a lot of great conversations, not just lot of great conversations, not just lot of great conversations, not just here on YouTube, but also in my own here on YouTube, but also in my own here on YouTube, but also in my own private community. If you want to join, private community. If you want to join, private community. If you want to join, you can do it absolutely free. Just you can do it absolutely free. Just you can do it absolutely free. Just click the link below. Or what you can do click the link below. Or what you can do click the link below. Or what you can do is go to kyneu-hoff.com/show. is go to kyneu-hoff.com/show. is go to kyneu-hoff.com/show. You'll get the show notes for this, but You'll get the show notes for this, but You'll get the show notes for this, but also get access to an incredible also get access to an incredible also get access to an incredible community of thousands, like over 7,500 community of thousands, like over 7,500 community of thousands, like over 7,500 other church leaders who are in the other church leaders who are in the other church leaders who are in the trenches with you. If you enjoyed this trenches with you. If you enjoyed this trenches with you. If you enjoyed this episode, like, subscribe, leave a episode, like, subscribe, leave a episode, like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation. And comment to join the conversation. And comment to join the conversation. And now, a word from today's Carefully now, a word from today's Carefully now, a word from today's Carefully Chosen Partners and then my interview Chosen Partners and then my interview Chosen Partners and then my interview about Tim Keller with Matt Smaihurst. about Tim Keller with Matt Smaihurst. about Tim Keller with Matt Smaihurst. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion. So, if you're in the Compassion. So, if you're in the Compassion. So, if you're in the scriptures routinely, as I am, you can't scriptures routinely, as I am, you can't scriptures routinely, as I am, you can't miss the fact that there's a huge miss the fact that there's a huge miss the fact that there's a huge emphasis on compassion and generosity as emphasis on compassion and generosity as emphasis on compassion and generosity as core components of God's actual core components of God's actual core components of God's actual character. It's all over the Old character. It's all over the Old character. It's all over the Old Testament and New Testament. God Testament and New Testament. God Testament and New Testament. God describes himself as compassionate, describes himself as compassionate, describes himself as compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in gracious, slow to anger, abounding in gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. Aspects that describe his caring, love. Aspects that describe his caring, love. Aspects that describe his caring, merciful, and generous nature. Right? As merciful, and generous nature. Right? As merciful, and generous nature. Right? As believers, guess what? Scripture calls believers, guess what? Scripture calls believers, guess what? Scripture calls us to reflect that nature. Living a life us to reflect that nature. Living a life us to reflect that nature. Living a life filled with gospel-driven kindness that filled with gospel-driven kindness that filled with gospel-driven kindness that sets us apart from this world. And this sets us apart from this world. And this sets us apart from this world. And this world really needs that kind of setting world really needs that kind of setting world really needs that kind of setting apart right now. So, I just wonder as a apart right now. So, I just wonder as a apart right now. So, I just wonder as a pastor to you, how's that going for you pastor to you, how's that going for you pastor to you, how's that going for you this summer? I want to encourage you to this summer? I want to encourage you to this summer? I want to encourage you to visit my friends at Compassion visit my friends at Compassion visit my friends at Compassion International to learn how you might International to learn how you might International to learn how you might grow your compassion and generosity grow your compassion and generosity grow your compassion and generosity today. It's one of the reasons I've today. It's one of the reasons I've today. It's one of the reasons I've stayed engaged with them for well over a

stayed engaged with them for well over a stayed engaged with them for well over a decade. There's a part of my heart that decade. There's a part of my heart that decade. There's a part of my heart that opens up when I serve the poor that opens up when I serve the poor that opens up when I serve the poor that honestly doesn't open up when I'm in my honestly doesn't open up when I'm in my honestly doesn't open up when I'm in my backyard. So, if you want to learn more backyard. So, if you want to learn more backyard. So, if you want to learn more and maybe this is a personal growth and maybe this is a personal growth and maybe this is a personal growth journey for you, go to journey for you, go to journey for you, go to compassion.com/carry. compassion.com/carry. compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.comcy. That's compassion.comcy. That's compassion.comcy. Well, Matt, it's great to have you on Well, Matt, it's great to have you on Well, Matt, it's great to have you on the podcast. Welcome. the podcast. Welcome. the podcast. Welcome. Thanks for having me, Curry. Thanks for having me, Curry. Thanks for having me, Curry. >> Yeah. So, you know, we do talk about Tim >> Yeah. So, you know, we do talk about Tim >> Yeah. So, you know, we do talk about Tim Keller quite a bit on this podcast. I Keller quite a bit on this podcast. I Keller quite a bit on this podcast. I know he impacted you a lot. He impacted know he impacted you a lot. He impacted know he impacted you a lot. He impacted me a lot. You I met with Tim Keller's me a lot. You I met with Tim Keller's me a lot. You I met with Tim Keller's team uh just before we recorded this, team uh just before we recorded this, team uh just before we recorded this, and their argument, I didn't tell you and their argument, I didn't tell you and their argument, I didn't tell you this in advance, is that probably this in advance, is that probably this in advance, is that probably outside of maybe two other people, you outside of maybe two other people, you outside of maybe two other people, you possibly listen to the most Tim Keller possibly listen to the most Tim Keller possibly listen to the most Tim Keller sermons of anyone on earth. Did you know sermons of anyone on earth. Did you know sermons of anyone on earth. Did you know that? that? that? I didn't know that's my reputation on on I didn't know that's my reputation on on I didn't know that's my reputation on on the street, but I'll take it. the street, but I'll take it. the street, but I'll take it. >> Well, they think Kathy probably listened >> Well, they think Kathy probably listened >> Well, they think Kathy probably listened to the most. And then there's one person to the most. And then there's one person to the most. And then there's one person on the staff of Gospel and Life whose on the staff of Gospel and Life whose on the staff of Gospel and Life whose job it is to listen to every single job it is to listen to every single job it is to listen to every single sermon dating back to the Hopewell days. sermon dating back to the Hopewell days. sermon dating back to the Hopewell days. But you did that and you researched his But you did that and you researched his But you did that and you researched his massive body of work. What did you massive body of work. What did you massive body of work. What did you discover about Tim Keller? Because we're discover about Tim Keller? Because we're discover about Tim Keller? Because we're going to talk about his legacy, his going to talk about his legacy, his going to talk about his legacy, his thinking, all of that. What did you thinking, all of that. What did you thinking, all of that. What did you discover about him that surprised you discover about him that surprised you discover about him that surprised you the most?

Well, there were a few things. I mean, Well, there were a few things. I mean, first of all, I was reminded of how first of all, I was reminded of how first of all, I was reminded of how deep his piety went. And I use piety in deep his piety went. And I use piety in deep his piety went. And I use piety in the positive sense. uh not not kind of the positive sense. uh not not kind of the positive sense. uh not not kind of speaking of pyotism, but just he was in speaking of pyotism, but just he was in speaking of pyotism, but just he was in some ways like a modern-day Puritan in some ways like a modern-day Puritan in some ways like a modern-day Puritan in how deeply he immersed himself in the how deeply he immersed himself in the how deeply he immersed himself in the scriptures, how vigorous his prayer life scriptures, how vigorous his prayer life scriptures, how vigorous his prayer life was, um even though there were certainly was, um even though there were certainly was, um even though there were certainly es and flows to it. And I think it's es and flows to it. And I think it's es and flows to it. And I think it's easy for people to look at Keller from easy for people to look at Keller from easy for people to look at Keller from afar or maybe read one of his books or afar or maybe read one of his books or afar or maybe read one of his books or listen to a few of his sermons and hear listen to a few of his sermons and hear listen to a few of his sermons and hear a lot of the cultural analysis that he a lot of the cultural analysis that he a lot of the cultural analysis that he was brilliant at and and that I'm so was brilliant at and and that I'm so was brilliant at and and that I'm so grateful for, but not realize that grateful for, but not realize that grateful for, but not realize that they're staring at the tip of an iceberg they're staring at the tip of an iceberg they're staring at the tip of an iceberg and underneath is decades of walking and underneath is decades of walking and underneath is decades of walking intimately with Jesus Christ. everything intimately with Jesus Christ. everything intimately with Jesus Christ. everything in his public ministry flowed out of a in his public ministry flowed out of a in his public ministry flowed out of a deep dynamic encounter with gospel deep dynamic encounter with gospel deep dynamic encounter with gospel grace. Um, and then I would say another grace. Um, and then I would say another grace. Um, and then I would say another thing that struck me Aresh as I was thing that struck me Aresh as I was thing that struck me Aresh as I was working on the book is how much working on the book is how much working on the book is how much friendship was a theme that coursed its friendship was a theme that coursed its friendship was a theme that coursed its way through his teaching. Uh if if you way through his teaching. Uh if if you way through his teaching. Uh if if you look at the table of contents, the kind look at the table of contents, the kind look at the table of contents, the kind of topic by topic survey of of various of topic by topic survey of of various of topic by topic survey of of various themes that animated Tim's ministry, I themes that animated Tim's ministry, I themes that animated Tim's ministry, I don't think friendship is one that would don't think friendship is one that would don't think friendship is one that would uh maybe immediately come to people's uh maybe immediately come to people's uh maybe immediately come to people's minds when they're trying to make that

minds when they're trying to make that minds when they're trying to make that list. And yet the more I tried to engage list. And yet the more I tried to engage list. And yet the more I tried to engage with what he said and what he wrote, the with what he said and what he wrote, the with what he said and what he wrote, the more I realized more I realized more I realized the friendship of Jesus Christ, uh, the friendship of Jesus Christ, uh, the friendship of Jesus Christ, uh, viewing the cross as the ultimate act of viewing the cross as the ultimate act of viewing the cross as the ultimate act of burdenbearing, the ultimate act of burdenbearing, the ultimate act of burdenbearing, the ultimate act of self-giving, the ultimate act of self-giving, the ultimate act of self-giving, the ultimate act of friendship should revolutionize friendship should revolutionize friendship should revolutionize everything about our everyday everything about our everyday everything about our everyday relationships. Of course, we see that in relationships. Of course, we see that in relationships. Of course, we see that in his book with Kathy, the meaning of his book with Kathy, the meaning of his book with Kathy, the meaning of marriage, particularly with that marriage, particularly with that marriage, particularly with that relationship, but given the influence relationship, but given the influence relationship, but given the influence not only of his friendship with Kathy not only of his friendship with Kathy not only of his friendship with Kathy that spanned five decades, but also the that spanned five decades, but also the that spanned five decades, but also the influence of CS Lewis in Tim's life, influence of CS Lewis in Tim's life, influence of CS Lewis in Tim's life, friendship was a more prominent theme friendship was a more prominent theme friendship was a more prominent theme than I realized when I embarked on the than I realized when I embarked on the than I realized when I embarked on the project. project. project. >> You know what hit me? U my wife and I >> You know what hit me? U my wife and I >> You know what hit me? U my wife and I just spent six days in New York City. We just spent six days in New York City. We just spent six days in New York City. We met with various groups of pastors, with met with various groups of pastors, with met with various groups of pastors, with the Gospel and Life team, with just the Gospel and Life team, with just the Gospel and Life team, with just different traditions. But you didn't different traditions. But you didn't different traditions. But you didn't have to raise Tim's name when you met have to raise Tim's name when you met have to raise Tim's name when you met Nextgen pastors, pastors in their 30s Nextgen pastors, pastors in their 30s Nextgen pastors, pastors in their 30s and 40s in New York. And not just and 40s in New York. And not just and 40s in New York. And not just Presbyterians, he was Presbyterian. I Presbyterians, he was Presbyterian. I Presbyterians, he was Presbyterian. I mean, non-denom southern Baptists, um, mean, non-denom southern Baptists, um, mean, non-denom southern Baptists, um, didn't matter who it was. Tim would come didn't matter who it was. Tim would come didn't matter who it was. Tim would come up and the picture I got on my last trip up and the picture I got on my last trip up and the picture I got on my last trip to Manhattan was oh my goodness, Tim was to Manhattan was oh my goodness, Tim was to Manhattan was oh my goodness, Tim was widely available, widely available, widely available, very accessible if you were a local very accessible if you were a local very accessible if you were a local pastor. Most of us only knew him through pastor. Most of us only knew him through pastor. Most of us only knew him through his teaching or his books or his teaching or his books or his teaching or his books or >> whatever. But if you're in New York >> whatever. But if you're in New York >> whatever. But if you're in New York City, he really, chances are he built

City, he really, chances are he built City, he really, chances are he built into you if you were a pastor of an into you if you were a pastor of an into you if you were a pastor of an evangelical church. Um, I heard stories evangelical church. Um, I heard stories evangelical church. Um, I heard stories of everything from, you know, just of everything from, you know, just of everything from, you know, just pastors whose names you wouldn't know pastors whose names you wouldn't know pastors whose names you wouldn't know who had like 500page unpublished toms of who had like 500page unpublished toms of who had like 500page unpublished toms of Tim's thoughts on particular issues that Tim's thoughts on particular issues that Tim's thoughts on particular issues that he's like, "Here, this is what I wrote. he's like, "Here, this is what I wrote. he's like, "Here, this is what I wrote. Read it." And it's just sitting in their Read it." And it's just sitting in their Read it." And it's just sitting in their drawer to, you know, late night Q&As's drawer to, you know, late night Q&As's drawer to, you know, late night Q&As's on Roosevelt Island to, yeah, I'll come on Roosevelt Island to, yeah, I'll come on Roosevelt Island to, yeah, I'll come to that thing. He was widely accessible, to that thing. He was widely accessible, to that thing. He was widely accessible, widely available, and had friends all widely available, and had friends all widely available, and had friends all over the city. And as as I was leaving over the city. And as as I was leaving over the city. And as as I was leaving New York last time, I kind of said to New York last time, I kind of said to New York last time, I kind of said to Keller's team and and to a couple of Keller's team and and to a couple of Keller's team and and to a couple of people, you know, his legacy is in his people, you know, his legacy is in his people, you know, his legacy is in his books. I've always said even when he was books. I've always said even when he was books. I've always said even when he was alive, Keller's one of those guys who's alive, Keller's one of those guys who's alive, Keller's one of those guys who's going to be read 100 years after he going to be read 100 years after he going to be read 100 years after he dies. Most of us not him. Yes. But his dies. Most of us not him. Yes. But his dies. Most of us not him. Yes. But his legacy actually lives in Manhattan and legacy actually lives in Manhattan and legacy actually lives in Manhattan and in New York City now through the next in New York City now through the next in New York City now through the next generation of church planters. Did you generation of church planters. Did you generation of church planters. Did you see that in your research as well, just see that in your research as well, just see that in your research as well, just how generous he was with his time and how generous he was with his time and how generous he was with his time and building into other leaders? building into other leaders? building into other leaders? Yeah. Well, I I had always known that he Yeah. Well, I I had always known that he Yeah. Well, I I had always known that he declined almost every speaking declined almost every speaking declined almost every speaking invitation that came his way. So, in invitation that came his way. So, in invitation that came his way. So, in 2008, the reason for God was published.

2008, the reason for God was published. 2008, the reason for God was published. That was his first bestseller. And after That was his first bestseller. And after That was his first bestseller. And after that, there was, you know, an incredible that, there was, you know, an incredible that, there was, you know, an incredible literary output over the course of 15 literary output over the course of 15 literary output over the course of 15 years. And he became something of a years. And he became something of a years. And he became something of a celebrity in the Christian world. In celebrity in the Christian world. In celebrity in the Christian world. In fact, one of the most difficult things fact, one of the most difficult things fact, one of the most difficult things he talked about was increasingly people he talked about was increasingly people he talked about was increasingly people who wanted to talk to him after church who wanted to talk to him after church who wanted to talk to him after church were not people he was pastoring, but were not people he was pastoring, but were not people he was pastoring, but people who, you know, were visiting, uh, people who, you know, were visiting, uh, people who, you know, were visiting, uh, which he he was happy to meet visitors, which he he was happy to meet visitors, which he he was happy to meet visitors, but it's a very different dynamic as a but it's a very different dynamic as a but it's a very different dynamic as a pastor when you're only interacting with pastor when you're only interacting with pastor when you're only interacting with fans. Um fans. Um fans. Um he could have been traveling the world he could have been traveling the world he could have been traveling the world speaking at all kinds of events, but the speaking at all kinds of events, but the speaking at all kinds of events, but the reason he declined almost every speaking reason he declined almost every speaking reason he declined almost every speaking invitation is because he wanted to invitation is because he wanted to invitation is because he wanted to continue prioritizing New York City and continue prioritizing New York City and continue prioritizing New York City and have the the margin to be able to do the have the the margin to be able to do the have the the margin to be able to do the very kind of kind of private acts of very kind of kind of private acts of very kind of kind of private acts of generosity you're talking about. And generosity you're talking about. And generosity you're talking about. And then of course after he died, uh, all of then of course after he died, uh, all of then of course after he died, uh, all of these stories came out of people that these stories came out of people that these stories came out of people that had been personally encouraged by Tim, had been personally encouraged by Tim, had been personally encouraged by Tim, uh, reaching out to them, emailing them, uh, reaching out to them, emailing them, uh, reaching out to them, emailing them, calling them. It's really incredible how calling them. It's really incredible how calling them. It's really incredible how much the gospel of grace and generosity much the gospel of grace and generosity much the gospel of grace and generosity that he so eloquently proclaimed really that he so eloquently proclaimed really that he so eloquently proclaimed really had sunk down into his heart to the had sunk down into his heart to the had sunk down into his heart to the point where he was reaching out uh, to point where he was reaching out uh, to point where he was reaching out uh, to people who had really little to offer people who had really little to offer people who had really little to offer him in return just to show them the him in return just to show them the him in return just to show them the love. Not well-known people like love. Not well-known people like love. Not well-known people like >> not names, not people who would end up >> not names, not people who would end up >> not names, not people who would end up blurbing his next book. These were just

blurbing his next book. These were just blurbing his next book. These were just >> church planters on the ground trying to >> church planters on the ground trying to >> church planters on the ground trying to make it to next year. make it to next year. make it to next year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. You know, it it it reminds >> Interesting. You know, it it it reminds >> Interesting. You know, it it it reminds me and I think once a year we're going me and I think once a year we're going me and I think once a year we're going to dive into Tim Keller's legacy. I'm to dive into Tim Keller's legacy. I'm to dive into Tim Keller's legacy. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a recurring pretty sure it's going to be a recurring pretty sure it's going to be a recurring thing on this show. Uh and so thanks for thing on this show. Uh and so thanks for thing on this show. Uh and so thanks for helping us with it this year, Matt. But helping us with it this year, Matt. But helping us with it this year, Matt. But you know when when I interviewed Eugene you know when when I interviewed Eugene you know when when I interviewed Eugene Peterson and then his biographers, Peterson and then his biographers, Peterson and then his biographers, there was a similar problem. He became a there was a similar problem. He became a there was a similar problem. He became a celebrity, right? And I remember there celebrity, right? And I remember there celebrity, right? And I remember there was a I think it was an invitation to go was a I think it was an invitation to go was a I think it was an invitation to go to Brazil that he ended up saying no to to Brazil that he ended up saying no to to Brazil that he ended up saying no to because you can gather 40,000 people in because you can gather 40,000 people in because you can gather 40,000 people in Brazil pretty quickly for a Christian Brazil pretty quickly for a Christian Brazil pretty quickly for a Christian cause, at least you could back in the cause, at least you could back in the cause, at least you could back in the day. day. day. >> And it wasn't that he wouldn't didn't >> And it wasn't that he wouldn't didn't >> And it wasn't that he wouldn't didn't want to do the event. It was that he was want to do the event. It was that he was want to do the event. It was that he was worried about his soul. when you see Tim worried about his soul. when you see Tim worried about his soul. when you see Tim making those decisions and again you're making those decisions and again you're making those decisions and again you're not his official biography. You've done not his official biography. You've done not his official biography. You've done kind of an intellectual gospel history kind of an intellectual gospel history kind of an intellectual gospel history of of Tim's work in your book Tim Keller of of Tim's work in your book Tim Keller of of Tim's work in your book Tim Keller on the Christian life. Um but did you on the Christian life. Um but did you on the Christian life. Um but did you see was there a similar soul battle see was there a similar soul battle see was there a similar soul battle going on in him or what was that going on in him or what was that going on in him or what was that pushpull to say no to the big marquee pushpull to say no to the big marquee pushpull to say no to the big marquee events and yes events and yes events and yes >> to the micro in the in the city?

>> to the micro in the in the city? >> to the micro in the in the city? >> Well, I think some of it was >> Well, I think some of it was >> Well, I think some of it was personality. Uh Tim was friendly but had personality. Uh Tim was friendly but had personality. Uh Tim was friendly but had a more retiring a more retiring a more retiring personality. Um a you know a a love of personality. Um a you know a a love of personality. Um a you know a a love of of reading and and processing of reading and and processing of reading and and processing information and synthesizing information and synthesizing information and synthesizing uh and of course producing uh content. uh and of course producing uh content. uh and of course producing uh content. And so I don't think he ever even dating And so I don't think he ever even dating And so I don't think he ever even dating back to the days when he was uh you know back to the days when he was uh you know back to the days when he was uh you know not a not a Christian I don't think he not a not a Christian I don't think he not a not a Christian I don't think he was ever kind of the life of the party was ever kind of the life of the party was ever kind of the life of the party ladder climber type. Uh ladder climber type. Uh ladder climber type. Uh therefore cutting his pastoral teeth in therefore cutting his pastoral teeth in therefore cutting his pastoral teeth in you know small town Virginia for 10 you know small town Virginia for 10 you know small town Virginia for 10 years mid70s to mid 80s I think it was a years mid70s to mid 80s I think it was a years mid70s to mid 80s I think it was a very fitting beginning for someone who very fitting beginning for someone who very fitting beginning for someone who just wanted to be with people. I I think just wanted to be with people. I I think just wanted to be with people. I I think Tim just excelled at the art of Tim just excelled at the art of Tim just excelled at the art of listening. Uh there there's a form of listening. Uh there there's a form of listening. Uh there there's a form of listening that comes when we read listening that comes when we read listening that comes when we read others. Uh and there's a form of others. Uh and there's a form of others. Uh and there's a form of listening that comes when we pastor listening that comes when we pastor listening that comes when we pastor others. And um I think Tim's ability to others. And um I think Tim's ability to others. And um I think Tim's ability to listen well to various kinds of people, listen well to various kinds of people, listen well to various kinds of people, whether you're in bluecollar Virginia or whether you're in bluecollar Virginia or whether you're in bluecollar Virginia or whether you're in the city that never whether you're in the city that never whether you're in the city that never sleeps, I think that that kept him sleeps, I think that that kept him sleeps, I think that that kept him grounded grounded grounded and probably prevented him from wanting and probably prevented him from wanting and probably prevented him from wanting to be someone he's not and chase the to be someone he's not and chase the to be someone he's not and chase the latest, you know, the ability to latest, you know, the ability to latest, you know, the ability to headline every major conference.

headline every major conference. headline every major conference. >> Actually, please please offer your >> Actually, please please offer your >> Actually, please please offer your perspective on this, Matt. But I think perspective on this, Matt. But I think perspective on this, Matt. But I think that is something that comes through in that is something that comes through in that is something that comes through in his preaching and comes through in his his preaching and comes through in his his preaching and comes through in his writing. He has tons of stories from writing. He has tons of stories from writing. He has tons of stories from unknown people just, you know, a unknown people just, you know, a unknown people just, you know, a Broadway actor that maybe he had coffee Broadway actor that maybe he had coffee Broadway actor that maybe he had coffee with or a woman who was struggling in with or a woman who was struggling in with or a woman who was struggling in her dating relationships and they're her dating relationships and they're her dating relationships and they're >> parishioner stories, average New Yorker >> parishioner stories, average New Yorker >> parishioner stories, average New Yorker stories, average hopefilled well stories, average hopefilled well stories, average hopefilled well Virginia Virginia Virginia >> stories. He he did spend a lot of time >> stories. He he did spend a lot of time >> stories. He he did spend a lot of time just listening to his congregation. Is just listening to his congregation. Is just listening to his congregation. Is that true? that true? that true? >> Well, yes. And that's how all of the >> Well, yes. And that's how all of the >> Well, yes. And that's how all of the apologetics came about is I mean one of apologetics came about is I mean one of apologetics came about is I mean one of the most successful u events or or the most successful u events or or the most successful u events or or programs that redeemer ran over the programs that redeemer ran over the programs that redeemer ran over the years was called questioning years was called questioning years was called questioning Christianity and a lot of that content Christianity and a lot of that content Christianity and a lot of that content made it into books such as making sense made it into books such as making sense made it into books such as making sense of god um and uh how to reach the west of god um and uh how to reach the west of god um and uh how to reach the west again. But Tim was constantly wanting to again. But Tim was constantly wanting to again. But Tim was constantly wanting to listen not just to his congregants but listen not just to his congregants but listen not just to his congregants but also to skeptics uh in New York to hear also to skeptics uh in New York to hear also to skeptics uh in New York to hear what were their deepest hopes, fears, what were their deepest hopes, fears, what were their deepest hopes, fears, longings and how can he show that these longings and how can he show that these longings and how can he show that these deepest hopes and longings will only deepest hopes and longings will only deepest hopes and longings will only find a happy ending in Jesus Christ.

find a happy ending in Jesus Christ. find a happy ending in Jesus Christ. That was so I would I would say the art That was so I would I would say the art That was so I would I would say the art of listening is in many ways what of listening is in many ways what of listening is in many ways what enabled him to make people feel so heard enabled him to make people feel so heard enabled him to make people feel so heard and understood when he when he gently and understood when he when he gently and understood when he when he gently but vigorously interacted with their but vigorously interacted with their but vigorously interacted with their objections to the faith. objections to the faith. objections to the faith. >> What um you mentioned you know his love >> What um you mentioned you know his love >> What um you mentioned you know his love of of reading and I mean it's obvious he of of reading and I mean it's obvious he of of reading and I mean it's obvious he he's quoting more people than most of us he's quoting more people than most of us he's quoting more people than most of us would in an entire series in a single would in an entire series in a single would in an entire series in a single message half of whom most of us have message half of whom most of us have message half of whom most of us have never heard of. He's just reading never heard of. He's just reading never heard of. He's just reading obscure theologians, philosophers, obscure theologians, philosophers, obscure theologians, philosophers, >> uh, going deep into the literature over >> uh, going deep into the literature over >> uh, going deep into the literature over centuries. centuries. centuries. What were his personal habits and What were his personal habits and What were his personal habits and rhythms that surprised you as you did rhythms that surprised you as you did rhythms that surprised you as you did your research that you thought, huh, not your research that you thought, huh, not your research that you thought, huh, not a lot of people do this? a lot of people do this? a lot of people do this? Well, one of the reasons the first thing Well, one of the reasons the first thing Well, one of the reasons the first thing I I said was his his piety, his I I said was his his piety, his I I said was his his piety, his commitment to spiritual disciplines is commitment to spiritual disciplines is commitment to spiritual disciplines is because he really did have kind of a because he really did have kind of a because he really did have kind of a classic morning, midday, evening prayer classic morning, midday, evening prayer classic morning, midday, evening prayer routine. So I his times of prayer marked routine. So I his times of prayer marked routine. So I his times of prayer marked his day and everything kind of or his day and everything kind of or his day and everything kind of or oriented around those times of prayer oriented around those times of prayer oriented around those times of prayer >> almost like a rule of life like kind of >> almost like a rule of life like kind of >> almost like a rule of life like kind of thing.

thing. thing. >> Yes. And from my understanding, he just >> Yes. And from my understanding, he just >> Yes. And from my understanding, he just basically never stopped reading. Uh so basically never stopped reading. Uh so basically never stopped reading. Uh so any margin that he had and of course he any margin that he had and of course he any margin that he had and of course he lived in New York, so he was often lived in New York, so he was often lived in New York, so he was often riding the the subway and and he he um riding the the subway and and he he um riding the the subway and and he he um sometimes being driven various places. sometimes being driven various places. sometimes being driven various places. He was just always reading and had an He was just always reading and had an He was just always reading and had an uncanny ability to process, synthesize, uncanny ability to process, synthesize, uncanny ability to process, synthesize, distill, and communicate uh all kinds of distill, and communicate uh all kinds of distill, and communicate uh all kinds of disperate information. disperate information. disperate information. So was, you know, and we hope to have So was, you know, and we hope to have So was, you know, and we hope to have Kathy Keller on this podcast at some Kathy Keller on this podcast at some Kathy Keller on this podcast at some point or some other members of the point or some other members of the point or some other members of the family to do a deeper dive maybe next family to do a deeper dive maybe next family to do a deeper dive maybe next year or something like that. But year or something like that. But year or something like that. But >> was a lot of his time spent alone, a lot >> was a lot of his time spent alone, a lot >> was a lot of his time spent alone, a lot of his time spent like reading, of his time spent like reading, of his time spent like reading, meditating, praying, thinking, writing, meditating, praying, thinking, writing, meditating, praying, thinking, writing, reflecting like if you had to divide it, reflecting like if you had to divide it, reflecting like if you had to divide it, do you have any sense of whether it was do you have any sense of whether it was do you have any sense of whether it was 70% alone, 30% in meetings? 70% alone, 30% in meetings? 70% alone, 30% in meetings? >> I don't I don't know that. That would be >> I don't I don't know that. That would be >> I don't I don't know that. That would be a great question for Kathy. I will say a great question for Kathy. I will say a great question for Kathy. I will say though that they were such though that they were such though that they were such powerful conversation partners. So even powerful conversation partners. So even powerful conversation partners. So even in so far as Tim was alone, I mean his in so far as Tim was alone, I mean his in so far as Tim was alone, I mean his his um study in which he wrote most of his um study in which he wrote most of his um study in which he wrote most of his sermons and books is in their his sermons and books is in their his sermons and books is in their apartment. Uh, I get the sense that he apartment. Uh, I get the sense that he apartment. Uh, I get the sense that he and Kathy were having a kind of ongoing and Kathy were having a kind of ongoing and Kathy were having a kind of ongoing dialogue about the various things he was dialogue about the various things he was dialogue about the various things he was reading and processing. And, you know, reading and processing. And, you know, reading and processing. And, you know, you just he quotes her directly in a lot you just he quotes her directly in a lot you just he quotes her directly in a lot of sermons. Uh, but you also can kind of

of sermons. Uh, but you also can kind of of sermons. Uh, but you also can kind of just hear the echo of her voice, her just hear the echo of her voice, her just hear the echo of her voice, her influence in so much of what he wrote influence in so much of what he wrote influence in so much of what he wrote and said. and said. and said. >> Any other surprises? I think that I think that I was struck as I revisited all of Tim's I was struck as I revisited all of Tim's I was struck as I revisited all of Tim's books for this project. So books that I books for this project. So books that I books for this project. So books that I had read in ' 08, 09, 10, you know, just had read in ' 08, 09, 10, you know, just had read in ' 08, 09, 10, you know, just down the line. I think I was struck by down the line. I think I was struck by down the line. I think I was struck by how fresh and relevant so many of them how fresh and relevant so many of them how fresh and relevant so many of them are. I I have a theory, Carrie, and it's are. I I have a theory, Carrie, and it's are. I I have a theory, Carrie, and it's that a lot of pastors out there kind of that a lot of pastors out there kind of that a lot of pastors out there kind of feel like they've been through their Tim feel like they've been through their Tim feel like they've been through their Tim Keller phase already and that they they Keller phase already and that they they Keller phase already and that they they they got what they needed and they've they got what they needed and they've they got what they needed and they've moved on. And I'm reminded of an moved on. And I'm reminded of an moved on. And I'm reminded of an illustration Keller actually used about illustration Keller actually used about illustration Keller actually used about how a person's influences are like rings how a person's influences are like rings how a person's influences are like rings inside a tree. If you cut a person in inside a tree. If you cut a person in inside a tree. If you cut a person in half, you see rings and those are the half, you see rings and those are the half, you see rings and those are the the voices that you have most absorbed the voices that you have most absorbed the voices that you have most absorbed and have most shaped you. And I think and have most shaped you. And I think and have most shaped you. And I think there are a lot of people out there who there are a lot of people out there who there are a lot of people out there who feel like, "Oh yeah, I got the Keller feel like, "Oh yeah, I got the Keller feel like, "Oh yeah, I got the Keller ring." Uh but they don't realize how ring." Uh but they don't realize how ring." Uh but they don't realize how faint that ring has grown. And as I faint that ring has grown. And as I faint that ring has grown. And as I revisited so many of you know his work revisited so many of you know his work revisited so many of you know his work on idolatry and counterfeit gods and on on idolatry and counterfeit gods and on on idolatry and counterfeit gods and on the gospel and the prodigal god and the gospel and the prodigal god and the gospel and the prodigal god and justice and prayer and suffering all the justice and prayer and suffering all the justice and prayer and suffering all the I was like wow I needed you know I I was like wow I needed you know I I was like wow I needed you know I considered myself unusually familiar considered myself unusually familiar considered myself unusually familiar with his work and I am remember you know

with his work and I am remember you know with his work and I am remember you know being reminded of all this stuff I had being reminded of all this stuff I had being reminded of all this stuff I had forgotten and how uh much it is medicine forgotten and how uh much it is medicine forgotten and how uh much it is medicine for the moment our our cultural moment for the moment our our cultural moment for the moment our our cultural moment and so I would that that's one of the and so I would that that's one of the and so I would that that's one of the things that was most enjoyable for me as things that was most enjoyable for me as things that was most enjoyable for me as I worked on the book, Carrie, is because I worked on the book, Carrie, is because I worked on the book, Carrie, is because I never had this sense of, okay, I'm I never had this sense of, okay, I'm I never had this sense of, okay, I'm trying to distill and synthesize the trying to distill and synthesize the trying to distill and synthesize the work of someone whose voice is outdated. work of someone whose voice is outdated. work of someone whose voice is outdated. If any if anything, I I felt the If any if anything, I I felt the If any if anything, I I felt the opposite. opposite. opposite. >> Well, the joke about you perhaps having >> Well, the joke about you perhaps having >> Well, the joke about you perhaps having been among top in the world of listening been among top in the world of listening been among top in the world of listening to his sermons, I was using your book, to his sermons, I was using your book, to his sermons, I was using your book, which I highly recommend, by the I think which I highly recommend, by the I think which I highly recommend, by the I think every pastor should add this to your every pastor should add this to your every pastor should add this to your library because I was preaching on um library because I was preaching on um library because I was preaching on um relationships at our church last weekend relationships at our church last weekend relationships at our church last weekend literally. And as I was finally literally. And as I was finally literally. And as I was finally finalizing prep, I was going through the finalizing prep, I was going through the finalizing prep, I was going through the friendship chapter and I saw some fresh friendship chapter and I saw some fresh friendship chapter and I saw some fresh quotes and I'm like, I don't remember quotes and I'm like, I don't remember quotes and I'm like, I don't remember reading those. And I followed the reading those. And I followed the reading those. And I followed the footnotes trail. Your footnotes are footnotes trail. Your footnotes are footnotes trail. Your footnotes are amazing. And discovered they were amazing. And discovered they were amazing. And discovered they were sermons from 1990 and 1992 in New York sermons from 1990 and 1992 in New York sermons from 1990 and 1992 in New York City City City >> and it felt like it could have been >> and it felt like it could have been >> and it felt like it could have been yesterday.

yesterday. yesterday. >> And that gets me to another thing. We >> And that gets me to another thing. We >> And that gets me to another thing. We have a lot of young leaders listening to have a lot of young leaders listening to have a lot of young leaders listening to this podcast. And when we interviewed this podcast. And when we interviewed this podcast. And when we interviewed Colin Hansen, when I interviewed Tim Colin Hansen, when I interviewed Tim Colin Hansen, when I interviewed Tim Keller, it became clear to me that the Keller, it became clear to me that the Keller, it became clear to me that the DNA for Tim was set early on, like right DNA for Tim was set early on, like right DNA for Tim was set early on, like right after his conversion. If you look at after his conversion. If you look at after his conversion. If you look at what he was saying, thinking, writing at what he was saying, thinking, writing at what he was saying, thinking, writing at 22, 22, 22, it's not that dissimilar. Has a lot more it's not that dissimilar. Has a lot more it's not that dissimilar. Has a lot more maturity at 62 than at 22. maturity at 62 than at 22. maturity at 62 than at 22. >> But it's not like, oh, that was his >> But it's not like, oh, that was his >> But it's not like, oh, that was his hippie phase or his, you know, whatever hippie phase or his, you know, whatever hippie phase or his, you know, whatever phase. like the DNA of Tim Keller seems phase. like the DNA of Tim Keller seems phase. like the DNA of Tim Keller seems to have been set early. Is that to have been set early. Is that to have been set early. Is that something you saw as well? And then I'd something you saw as well? And then I'd something you saw as well? And then I'd love you to think about it because you love you to think about it because you love you to think about it because you know the habits we set in our 20s know the habits we set in our 20s know the habits we set in our 20s compound for good or for bad. And you compound for good or for bad. And you compound for good or for bad. And you know, you become more of who you are in know, you become more of who you are in know, you become more of who you are in your 30s than you were in your 20s your 30s than you were in your 20s your 30s than you were in your 20s compounds in your 40s, 50s, 60s, and in compounds in your 40s, 50s, 60s, and in compounds in your 40s, 50s, 60s, and in Tim's case, right up until he passed in Tim's case, right up until he passed in Tim's case, right up until he passed in his early 70s. But I'm thinking for his early 70s. But I'm thinking for his early 70s. But I'm thinking for young leaders like who are like, oh, you young leaders like who are like, oh, you young leaders like who are like, oh, you know, the making of Tim Keller. What did know, the making of Tim Keller. What did know, the making of Tim Keller. What did you notice about those early years after you notice about those early years after you notice about those early years after his conversion, um, you know, his his conversion, um, you know, his his conversion, um, you know, his seminary years, that kind of thing. Did seminary years, that kind of thing. Did seminary years, that kind of thing. Did you see a lot of the DNA set? Did that you see a lot of the DNA set? Did that you see a lot of the DNA set? Did that shift a lot over time? I'm just curious shift a lot over time? I'm just curious shift a lot over time? I'm just curious what those early patterns were and how what those early patterns were and how what those early patterns were and how they may have impacted the Tim Keller we they may have impacted the Tim Keller we they may have impacted the Tim Keller we all came to know.

all came to know. all came to know. >> Yeah. Well, I would agree that um >> Yeah. Well, I would agree that um >> Yeah. Well, I would agree that um through the influence of Inner Varsity through the influence of Inner Varsity through the influence of Inner Varsity at Bucknell and then through his time at at Bucknell and then through his time at at Bucknell and then through his time at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, uh Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, uh Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, uh so much of his theology was set. But so much of his theology was set. But so much of his theology was set. But what I discovered Aresh is that that what I discovered Aresh is that that what I discovered Aresh is that that theology and how he communicated it and theology and how he communicated it and theology and how he communicated it and applied it did mature in different ways applied it did mature in different ways applied it did mature in different ways with different topics. So, for example, with different topics. So, for example, with different topics. So, for example, um you know, you can almost look at uh um you know, you can almost look at uh um you know, you can almost look at uh the various topics I cover and and I'm the various topics I cover and and I'm the various topics I cover and and I'm almost I've never done this before, but almost I've never done this before, but almost I've never done this before, but I'm just sort of thinking out loud here. I'm just sort of thinking out loud here. I'm just sort of thinking out loud here. You know, Jesus Christ and all of You know, Jesus Christ and all of You know, Jesus Christ and all of scripture, Jesus being the hero of all scripture, Jesus being the hero of all scripture, Jesus being the hero of all scripture. Well, yeah, he it he was scripture. Well, yeah, he it he was scripture. Well, yeah, he it he was influenced by a a a academic named Alec influenced by a a a academic named Alec influenced by a a a academic named Alec Matir. There's a little anecdote I share Matir. There's a little anecdote I share Matir. There's a little anecdote I share about when he was at RC Sproul's about when he was at RC Sproul's about when he was at RC Sproul's Ligonier Valley Study Center as a Ligonier Valley Study Center as a Ligonier Valley Study Center as a seminarian uh hearing about Christ in seminarian uh hearing about Christ in seminarian uh hearing about Christ in the Old Testament in a way that Tim had the Old Testament in a way that Tim had the Old Testament in a way that Tim had never heard before. And then of course never heard before. And then of course never heard before. And then of course the mentorship of Ed Clowney who taught the mentorship of Ed Clowney who taught the mentorship of Ed Clowney who taught him Christc centered preaching. And it him Christc centered preaching. And it him Christc centered preaching. And it was Ed Clowny's exposition of the was Ed Clowny's exposition of the was Ed Clowny's exposition of the parable of the prodigal sons, Luke 15, parable of the prodigal sons, Luke 15, parable of the prodigal sons, Luke 15, that had a revolutionary effect on how that had a revolutionary effect on how that had a revolutionary effect on how Tim himself understood the gospel. Um, Tim himself understood the gospel. Um, Tim himself understood the gospel. Um, and I won't go through all of them, but and I won't go through all of them, but and I won't go through all of them, but I'll, you know, idolatry. Well, that was

I'll, you know, idolatry. Well, that was I'll, you know, idolatry. Well, that was one that came about a little later that one that came about a little later that one that came about a little later that he says, he says, he says, >> was that a product in New York a little >> was that a product in New York a little >> was that a product in New York a little bit? bit? bit? >> I think so. I think that um, >> I think so. I think that um, >> I think so. I think that um, >> that's how I read your chapter on that. >> that's how I read your chapter on that. >> that's how I read your chapter on that. >> Exactly. And and I think that uh he you >> Exactly. And and I think that uh he you >> Exactly. And and I think that uh he you know he was struck by something Martin know he was struck by something Martin know he was struck by something Martin Lloyd Jones said in a sermon, something Lloyd Jones said in a sermon, something Lloyd Jones said in a sermon, something David Palison wrote. So he uh but but so David Palison wrote. So he uh but but so David Palison wrote. So he uh but but so so many of the basic just instincts were so many of the basic just instincts were so many of the basic just instincts were there. I was listening to a 1977 there. I was listening to a 1977 there. I was listening to a 1977 sermon uh on Romans 5 titled two Adams sermon uh on Romans 5 titled two Adams sermon uh on Romans 5 titled two Adams and he's quoting from not the New York and he's quoting from not the New York and he's quoting from not the New York Times but the Richmond Times Dispatch Times but the Richmond Times Dispatch Times but the Richmond Times Dispatch which was the local paper at the time. which was the local paper at the time. which was the local paper at the time. So you hear things like that and you're So you hear things like that and you're So you hear things like that and you're like okay he was all he was always Tim U like okay he was all he was always Tim U like okay he was all he was always Tim U but of course he's just but of course he's just but of course he's just contin continuing to listen. Are any of contin continuing to listen. Are any of contin continuing to listen. Are any of those early messages publicly available those early messages publicly available those early messages publicly available or are they sitting on cassette tapes in or are they sitting on cassette tapes in or are they sitting on cassette tapes in an office right now? an office right now? an office right now? >> They're they're not publicly available.

>> They're they're not publicly available. >> They're they're not publicly available. >> I didn't think so. No, I was talking to >> I didn't think so. No, I was talking to >> I didn't think so. No, I was talking to the team and they're like, "A lot of the team and they're like, "A lot of the team and they're like, "A lot of it's on cassette tapes and we got to get it's on cassette tapes and we got to get it's on cassette tapes and we got to get it out there." it out there." it out there." >> Yeah, maybe one day. But yeah, >> Yeah, maybe one day. But yeah, >> Yeah, maybe one day. But yeah, >> the uh the other thing I want to say, >> the uh the other thing I want to say, >> the uh the other thing I want to say, Carrie, is you said, well, a lot of Carrie, is you said, well, a lot of Carrie, is you said, well, a lot of pastors today have their thinking set at pastors today have their thinking set at pastors today have their thinking set at a relatively early age, but that can a relatively early age, but that can a relatively early age, but that can become a danger. I think the reason that become a danger. I think the reason that become a danger. I think the reason that it never oified for Tim is because he it never oified for Tim is because he it never oified for Tim is because he kept listening. He kept learning. That kept listening. He kept learning. That kept listening. He kept learning. That gets back to what we we talked about. Um gets back to what we we talked about. Um gets back to what we we talked about. Um he he kept wanting to grow in he he kept wanting to grow in he he kept wanting to grow in understanding the human imagination, the understanding the human imagination, the understanding the human imagination, the human condition and how the wonders of human condition and how the wonders of human condition and how the wonders of gospel grace can answer every struggle, gospel grace can answer every struggle, gospel grace can answer every struggle, every malady of the human heart. every malady of the human heart. every malady of the human heart. >> Do you have and this may be just a >> Do you have and this may be just a >> Do you have and this may be just a waiting thing. I mean maybe you have an waiting thing. I mean maybe you have an waiting thing. I mean maybe you have an exact hour figure. I I doubt you do. You exact hour figure. I I doubt you do. You exact hour figure. I I doubt you do. You know, when I think about um you know, know, when I think about um you know, know, when I think about um you know, John Mark Comr, who's in his early 40s, John Mark Comr, who's in his early 40s, John Mark Comr, who's in his early 40s, frequent guest on this podcast, John frequent guest on this podcast, John frequent guest on this podcast, John Mark has been reading Desert Mothers and Mark has been reading Desert Mothers and Mark has been reading Desert Mothers and Fathers for decades, and it just Fathers for decades, and it just Fathers for decades, and it just compounds and it gets better when you compounds and it gets better when you compounds and it gets better when you get older. Uh Tim was reading widely in get older. Uh Tim was reading widely in get older. Uh Tim was reading widely in his 20s. Any idea how widespread his his 20s. Any idea how widespread his his 20s. Any idea how widespread his listening reading was? I'm just thinking listening reading was? I'm just thinking listening reading was? I'm just thinking about young leaders who are like, well, about young leaders who are like, well, about young leaders who are like, well, what what dues do I need to pay now so what what dues do I need to pay now so what what dues do I need to pay now so that when I'm in my 50s, you know, I've that when I'm in my 50s, you know, I've that when I'm in my 50s, you know, I've got this broad repertoire, working got this broad repertoire, working got this broad repertoire, working memory of theologians, philosophers, um,

memory of theologians, philosophers, um, memory of theologians, philosophers, um, you know, I've read all the CS Lewis you know, I've read all the CS Lewis you know, I've read all the CS Lewis stuff. Like, was he reading multiple stuff. Like, was he reading multiple stuff. Like, was he reading multiple hours a day, multiple hours a week? Like hours a day, multiple hours a week? Like hours a day, multiple hours a week? Like any sense of that rule of life rhythms any sense of that rule of life rhythms any sense of that rule of life rhythms even in his early years? even in his early years? even in his early years? >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting. When he >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting. When he >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting. When he moved to New York, he realized that he moved to New York, he realized that he moved to New York, he realized that he was ministering to people who were more was ministering to people who were more was ministering to people who were more secular than other Americans, but that secular than other Americans, but that secular than other Americans, but that there were people on planet Earth who there were people on planet Earth who there were people on planet Earth who were just as secular. But he had to look were just as secular. But he had to look were just as secular. But he had to look across the pond to the UK to find across the pond to the UK to find across the pond to the UK to find pastors who were ministering in the kind pastors who were ministering in the kind pastors who were ministering in the kind of cutting edge secular context where he of cutting edge secular context where he of cutting edge secular context where he was in 1989. So actually when Tim moved was in 1989. So actually when Tim moved was in 1989. So actually when Tim moved to New York City, uh he realized that he to New York City, uh he realized that he to New York City, uh he realized that he could actually learn a lot about how to could actually learn a lot about how to could actually learn a lot about how to contextualize the gospel in that secular contextualize the gospel in that secular contextualize the gospel in that secular context by listening to preachers in context by listening to preachers in context by listening to preachers in London, preachers who had who had done London, preachers who had who had done London, preachers who had who had done so evangelistically in a context that so evangelistically in a context that so evangelistically in a context that had become secular before uh before had become secular before uh before had become secular before uh before America. And he says at one point, this America. And he says at one point, this America. And he says at one point, this is this is from a a video discussion. At is this is from a a video discussion. At is this is from a a video discussion. At one point he says that he probably one point he says that he probably one point he says that he probably listened to in his early days at listened to in his early days at listened to in his early days at Redeemer 100 or 150 of the taped sermons Redeemer 100 or 150 of the taped sermons Redeemer 100 or 150 of the taped sermons of Dick Lucas, Center City, London of Dick Lucas, Center City, London of Dick Lucas, Center City, London preacher, and probably 200 or more of preacher, and probably 200 or more of preacher, and probably 200 or more of Martin Lloyd Jones. They they were, you Martin Lloyd Jones. They they were, you Martin Lloyd Jones. They they were, you know, Dick Lucas was preaching more or know, Dick Lucas was preaching more or know, Dick Lucas was preaching more or less in the 70s and 80s, Lloyd Joan in

less in the 70s and 80s, Lloyd Joan in less in the 70s and 80s, Lloyd Joan in the 50s and 60s, but Keller says, quote, the 50s and 60s, but Keller says, quote, the 50s and 60s, but Keller says, quote, "My understanding of New York was that "My understanding of New York was that "My understanding of New York was that it's more like Europe than it is the it's more like Europe than it is the it's more like Europe than it is the rest of America. It's less traditional, rest of America. It's less traditional, rest of America. It's less traditional, more secular, and I could see that Lloyd more secular, and I could see that Lloyd more secular, and I could see that Lloyd Jones preached differently, especially Jones preached differently, especially Jones preached differently, especially his evening sermons, which were always his evening sermons, which were always his evening sermons, which were always evangelistic. You brought your evangelistic. You brought your evangelistic. You brought your non-Christian friends to his evening non-Christian friends to his evening non-Christian friends to his evening services. I listened to those and to services. I listened to those and to services. I listened to those and to Dick's Dick Lucas's lunchtime services Dick's Dick Lucas's lunchtime services Dick's Dick Lucas's lunchtime services which were also evangelistic and I which were also evangelistic and I which were also evangelistic and I thought their preaching is more thought their preaching is more thought their preaching is more calibrated to the kind of person I'm calibrated to the kind of person I'm calibrated to the kind of person I'm going to be trying to reach. So he going to be trying to reach. So he going to be trying to reach. So he really was trying to uh climb into the really was trying to uh climb into the really was trying to uh climb into the the the mind, the heart, the imagination the the mind, the heart, the imagination the the mind, the heart, the imagination of those who see no need for God and of those who see no need for God and of those who see no need for God and show them uh what they're missing out show them uh what they're missing out show them uh what they're missing out on. Hm. So you had to distill thousands on. Hm. So you had to distill thousands on. Hm. So you had to distill thousands of pages, hundreds, thousands of hours of pages, hundreds, thousands of hours of pages, hundreds, thousands of hours of sermons. I mean, the research is of sermons. I mean, the research is of sermons. I mean, the research is really impressive. really impressive. really impressive. >> Decades of thinking. What did not make >> Decades of thinking. What did not make >> Decades of thinking. What did not make the book, but maybe still is in the back the book, but maybe still is in the back the book, but maybe still is in the back of your mind, haunts you, it amazes you, of your mind, haunts you, it amazes you, of your mind, haunts you, it amazes you, but you know, books have limits. What but you know, books have limits. What but you know, books have limits. What What didn't make the cut? That's What didn't make the cut? That's What didn't make the cut? That's fascinating. His stuff on cultural fascinating. His stuff on cultural fascinating. His stuff on cultural apologetics. So originally I was going apologetics. So originally I was going apologetics. So originally I was going to include a chapter on cultural to include a chapter on cultural to include a chapter on cultural apologetics. Uh but the reason I in apologetics. Uh but the reason I in apologetics. Uh but the reason I in consultation with the publisher decided consultation with the publisher decided consultation with the publisher decided not to is because of the pretty limited not to is because of the pretty limited not to is because of the pretty limited focus of the book to the Christian life, focus of the book to the Christian life, focus of the book to the Christian life, Christian living. Uh now I do think

Christian living. Uh now I do think Christian living. Uh now I do think every Christian needs to have some tools every Christian needs to have some tools every Christian needs to have some tools in the toolkit for engaging with those in the toolkit for engaging with those in the toolkit for engaging with those who don't believe in and doing some who don't believe in and doing some who don't believe in and doing some cultural apologetics. But man, if I had cultural apologetics. But man, if I had cultural apologetics. But man, if I had to write one more chapter, I would love to write one more chapter, I would love to write one more chapter, I would love to be able to write kind of the Keller to be able to write kind of the Keller to be able to write kind of the Keller cultural apologetics 101. Uh but there's cultural apologetics 101. Uh but there's cultural apologetics 101. Uh but there's a lot that is happening through the a lot that is happening through the a lot that is happening through the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics at TGC, which I think is uh trying to at TGC, which I think is uh trying to at TGC, which I think is uh trying to carry on that legacy and think carry on that legacy and think carry on that legacy and think creatively about ways that we can creatively about ways that we can creatively about ways that we can translate the gospel into a world that translate the gospel into a world that translate the gospel into a world that continues to change. continues to change. continues to change. >> So, you know, this isn't a Keller hate >> So, you know, this isn't a Keller hate >> So, you know, this isn't a Keller hate geography. I have to be careful about geography. I have to be careful about geography. I have to be careful about that. You know, he was human like the that. You know, he was human like the that. You know, he was human like the rest of us. But I think there's just so rest of us. But I think there's just so rest of us. But I think there's just so much to learn. And one of the ways you much to learn. And one of the ways you much to learn. And one of the ways you described him as a three-dimensional described him as a three-dimensional described him as a three-dimensional voice in a two-dimensional world. What voice in a two-dimensional world. What voice in a two-dimensional world. What do you mean by that term? And then what do you mean by that term? And then what do you mean by that term? And then what was it about that approach that probably was it about that approach that probably was it about that approach that probably helped him become so well heard in New helped him become so well heard in New helped him become so well heard in New York, but also by, you know, millions of York, but also by, you know, millions of York, but also by, you know, millions of Christians and leaders around the world?

Christians and leaders around the world? Christians and leaders around the world? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, uh, I'm indebted to Colin Hansen for uh, I'm indebted to Colin Hansen for uh, I'm indebted to Colin Hansen for that observation. And if we're kind of that observation. And if we're kind of that observation. And if we're kind of borrowing philosophical categories, borrowing philosophical categories, borrowing philosophical categories, sometimes people talk about the sometimes people talk about the sometimes people talk about the normative, the situational, the normative, the situational, the normative, the situational, the existential. So if you think of the existential. So if you think of the existential. So if you think of the normative being for a preacher, keen normative being for a preacher, keen normative being for a preacher, keen biblical insight, the situational, biblical insight, the situational, biblical insight, the situational, that's the studied cultural awareness, that's the studied cultural awareness, that's the studied cultural awareness, and the existential, that's the and the existential, that's the and the existential, that's the searching heart application. searching heart application. searching heart application. If you think about it, most great If you think about it, most great If you think about it, most great preachers carry, not just good preachers carry, not just good preachers carry, not just good preachers, great preachers excel at two preachers, great preachers excel at two preachers, great preachers excel at two of those. But Keller had a way of of those. But Keller had a way of of those. But Keller had a way of excelling at all three. So, think Bible excelling at all three. So, think Bible excelling at all three. So, think Bible teacher meets cultural analyst meets teacher meets cultural analyst meets teacher meets cultural analyst meets biblical counselor. Um, and I actually biblical counselor. Um, and I actually biblical counselor. Um, and I actually think that the first and third, Bible think that the first and third, Bible think that the first and third, Bible teacher, biblical counselor are probably teacher, biblical counselor are probably teacher, biblical counselor are probably where he's least appreciated. Uh, some where he's least appreciated. Uh, some where he's least appreciated. Uh, some may hear him quoting philosophers and may hear him quoting philosophers and may hear him quoting philosophers and New York Times columnists and assume his New York Times columnists and assume his New York Times columnists and assume his preaching is really scholarly and preaching is really scholarly and preaching is really scholarly and sophisticated and fancy, but it actually sophisticated and fancy, but it actually sophisticated and fancy, but it actually wasn't. Uh, he actually had a way, as wasn't. Uh, he actually had a way, as wasn't. Uh, he actually had a way, as it's been said, of putting the cookies it's been said, of putting the cookies it's been said, of putting the cookies on the bottom shelf. And again, I think on the bottom shelf. And again, I think on the bottom shelf. And again, I think that's coming from all those years that's coming from all those years that's coming from all those years preaching in a context where I mean, preaching in a context where I mean, preaching in a context where I mean, Carrie, did you know that in his entire Carrie, did you know that in his entire Carrie, did you know that in his entire church of 300 people in Hopewell, church of 300 people in Hopewell, church of 300 people in Hopewell, Virginia, there were only two college Virginia, there were only two college Virginia, there were only two college graduates?

graduates? graduates? >> I think I did read that. Isn't that >> I think I did read that. Isn't that >> I think I did read that. Isn't that crazy? crazy? crazy? >> Yeah. And they were they were local >> Yeah. And they were they were local >> Yeah. And they were they were local elementary school teachers. So So he had elementary school teachers. So So he had elementary school teachers. So So he had to learn to make his illustrations vivid to learn to make his illustrations vivid to learn to make his illustrations vivid and his applications penetrating and and his applications penetrating and and his applications penetrating and down to earth. Well, and that's the line down to earth. Well, and that's the line down to earth. Well, and that's the line that I think it's in preaching where he that I think it's in preaching where he that I think it's in preaching where he kind of says, "In Hopewell, Virginia, I kind of says, "In Hopewell, Virginia, I kind of says, "In Hopewell, Virginia, I earned the ability to preach through my earned the ability to preach through my earned the ability to preach through my pastoral care." But he said, "When I pastoral care." But he said, "When I pastoral care." But he said, "When I went to New York, it flipped and I went to New York, it flipped and I went to New York, it flipped and I earned my ability to do pastoral care by earned my ability to do pastoral care by earned my ability to do pastoral care by the quality of my preaching." the quality of my preaching." the quality of my preaching." >> So, you know, is that is that an >> So, you know, is that is that an >> So, you know, is that is that an accurate reflection? Did I remember that accurate reflection? Did I remember that accurate reflection? Did I remember that correctly? correctly? correctly? >> Yeah, absolutely. And >> Yeah, absolutely. And >> Yeah, absolutely. And >> like if you don't love the people in a >> like if you don't love the people in a >> like if you don't love the people in a church of 300 in a place like Hopewell, church of 300 in a place like Hopewell, church of 300 in a place like Hopewell, Virginia, they don't care what you said Virginia, they don't care what you said Virginia, they don't care what you said on Sunday morning. you got to go have on Sunday morning. you got to go have on Sunday morning. you got to go have coffee with them and drop by their shop, coffee with them and drop by their shop, coffee with them and drop by their shop, you know, where they're fixing you know, where they're fixing you know, where they're fixing transmissions or their classroom or transmissions or their classroom or transmissions or their classroom or whatever. But in New York, it was the whatever. But in New York, it was the whatever. But in New York, it was the other way around. If you don't have the other way around. If you don't have the other way around. If you don't have the intellectual credibility to get up there intellectual credibility to get up there intellectual credibility to get up there and make sense on a Sunday, nobody's and make sense on a Sunday, nobody's and make sense on a Sunday, nobody's ever going to listen to you over coffee ever going to listen to you over coffee ever going to listen to you over coffee or come to you with their problems. And or come to you with their problems. And or come to you with their problems. And thought that was a really really thought that was a really really thought that was a really really fascinating thing. So yeah, he was a fascinating thing. So yeah, he was a fascinating thing. So yeah, he was a you're right. This goes I see listening you're right. This goes I see listening you're right. This goes I see listening developing as a theme of this developing as a theme of this developing as a theme of this conversation. And conversation. And conversation. And >> that sort of gets me into like listening >> that sort of gets me into like listening >> that sort of gets me into like listening to New York. So, one of the things to New York. So, one of the things to New York. So, one of the things that's interesting, it's very easy for that's interesting, it's very easy for that's interesting, it's very easy for me as a preacher to say, you know, in me as a preacher to say, you know, in me as a preacher to say, you know, in culture today, Keller would never say culture today, Keller would never say culture today, Keller would never say that. He would say, "Well, in New York that. He would say, "Well, in New York that. He would say, "Well, in New York City, in New York City, in New York City, in New York City, in New York City, in New York City, in New York City, in New York, New York, you know, City, in New York, New York, you know, City, in New York, New York, you know, it was always always seemed to be New it was always always seemed to be New it was always always seemed to be New York. It wasn't America. It wasn't the York. It wasn't America. It wasn't the York. It wasn't America. It wasn't the world. Sometimes it was the world today, world. Sometimes it was the world today, world. Sometimes it was the world today, but it was so New York." And I think you but it was so New York." And I think you but it was so New York." And I think you can make the argument, feel free to can make the argument, feel free to can make the argument, feel free to disagree, Matt, but that he did cultural disagree, Matt, but that he did cultural disagree, Matt, but that he did cultural exugesus as well as he did biblical

exugesus as well as he did biblical exugesus as well as he did biblical exugesus. And I'm wondering if you were exugesus. And I'm wondering if you were exugesus. And I'm wondering if you were able to put your finger on what made him able to put your finger on what made him able to put your finger on what made him such a great cultural interpret such a great cultural interpret such a great cultural interpret interpreter to the point where when he interpreter to the point where when he interpreter to the point where when he stood up and said something about trying stood up and said something about trying stood up and said something about trying to make it on Broadway or being in to make it on Broadway or being in to make it on Broadway or being in fintech in New York, uh the people in fintech in New York, uh the people in fintech in New York, uh the people in fintech or the people on Broadway or the fintech or the people on Broadway or the fintech or the people on Broadway or the people working at LinkedIn are like, people working at LinkedIn are like, people working at LinkedIn are like, "Oh, you understand my world. You get "Oh, you understand my world. You get "Oh, you understand my world. You get it." it." it." >> He was just so good at that. What made >> He was just so good at that. What made >> He was just so good at that. What made him effective at that? him effective at that? him effective at that? Well, he actually said when he talked Well, he actually said when he talked Well, he actually said when he talked about engaging in debating pmics that about engaging in debating pmics that about engaging in debating pmics that that one of the key things is to that one of the key things is to that one of the key things is to articulate. You should be able to articulate. You should be able to articulate. You should be able to articulate your opponent's position articulate your opponent's position articulate your opponent's position not just in a way that they would not just in a way that they would not just in a way that they would recognize but better than they could recognize but better than they could recognize but better than they could themselves. themselves. themselves. And I think because he read and listened And I think because he read and listened And I think because he read and listened so widely and charitably, it enabled him so widely and charitably, it enabled him so widely and charitably, it enabled him to climb into other people's perspective to climb into other people's perspective to climb into other people's perspective to enabled him to see the world from a to enabled him to see the world from a to enabled him to see the world from a vantage point that he himself didn't vantage point that he himself didn't vantage point that he himself didn't inhabit as an evangelical Christian. Um, inhabit as an evangelical Christian. Um, inhabit as an evangelical Christian. Um, I think some sometimes we can forget I think some sometimes we can forget I think some sometimes we can forget what it was like to be lost and and we what it was like to be lost and and we what it was like to be lost and and we can almost um speak as if we forget that can almost um speak as if we forget that can almost um speak as if we forget that we were once lost but now we've been we were once lost but now we've been we were once lost but now we've been found. We were blind but now we see. Um, found. We were blind but now we see. Um, found. We were blind but now we see. Um, you know, Keller one time said there you know, Keller one time said there you know, Keller one time said there there's a kind of evangelism that shows

there's a kind of evangelism that shows there's a kind of evangelism that shows up and says, "I'm right, you're wrong, up and says, "I'm right, you're wrong, up and says, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I'd love to tell you about it." and I'd love to tell you about it." and I'd love to tell you about it." Well, Keller never succumbed to that Well, Keller never succumbed to that Well, Keller never succumbed to that because he was so committed to because he was so committed to because he was so committed to dignifying other people, even his dignifying other people, even his dignifying other people, even his critics, even his opponents, by critics, even his opponents, by critics, even his opponents, by representing their positions in a way representing their positions in a way representing their positions in a way that made them say, "Yes, that's what I that made them say, "Yes, that's what I that made them say, "Yes, that's what I believe and that's why I believe it." believe and that's why I believe it." believe and that's why I believe it." And then he would just sneak up on you And then he would just sneak up on you And then he would just sneak up on you in that subversive way and show actually in that subversive way and show actually in that subversive way and show actually you're settling here. what you're really you're settling here. what you're really you're settling here. what you're really after. Your those deepest longings, after. Your those deepest longings, after. Your those deepest longings, those deepest desires of your heart, those deepest desires of your heart, those deepest desires of your heart, your passion for meaning, identity, your passion for meaning, identity, your passion for meaning, identity, freedom, justice, all of those things freedom, justice, all of those things freedom, justice, all of those things will only find a happy ending in the will only find a happy ending in the will only find a happy ending in the gospel of Jesus Christ. gospel of Jesus Christ. gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the formula. You're right. When That's the formula. You're right. When That's the formula. You're right. When you said that, that last 30 seconds, you said that, that last 30 seconds, you said that, that last 30 seconds, that's pretty much an overlay on that's pretty much an overlay on that's pretty much an overlay on virtually every sermon I've ever heard virtually every sermon I've ever heard virtually every sermon I've ever heard him preach.

him preach. him preach. Yeah, the experience of listening to one Yeah, the experience of listening to one Yeah, the experience of listening to one of his sermons, I think, is he he starts of his sermons, I think, is he he starts of his sermons, I think, is he he starts off and he's doing the survey of the off and he's doing the survey of the off and he's doing the survey of the cultural landscape and he may be talking cultural landscape and he may be talking cultural landscape and he may be talking about various u various movements or about various u various movements or about various u various movements or ideologies or idols and you kind of find ideologies or idols and you kind of find ideologies or idols and you kind of find yourself sitting back and enjoying, oh yourself sitting back and enjoying, oh yourself sitting back and enjoying, oh yeah, that that is that is what's going yeah, that that is that is what's going yeah, that that is that is what's going on out there. That is a good read on our on out there. That is a good read on our on out there. That is a good read on our moment. But before you know it, he's moment. But before you know it, he's moment. But before you know it, he's snuck up in here and he's he's poking snuck up in here and he's he's poking snuck up in here and he's he's poking you in the idols. And it was that artful you in the idols. And it was that artful you in the idols. And it was that artful surprise. surprise. surprise. Uh that I think for lack of a better Uh that I think for lack of a better Uh that I think for lack of a better word, Carrie, was just very biblical word, Carrie, was just very biblical word, Carrie, was just very biblical because you think about Paul's move from because you think about Paul's move from because you think about Paul's move from Romans 1 to Romans 2. The the Romans 1 to Romans 2. The the Romans 1 to Romans 2. The the self-righteous Jews loved Romans 1 self-righteous Jews loved Romans 1 self-righteous Jews loved Romans 1 because Paul was railing on the pagans because Paul was railing on the pagans because Paul was railing on the pagans and saying, "You're under the wrath of and saying, "You're under the wrath of and saying, "You're under the wrath of God and you deserve it." And you can God and you deserve it." And you can God and you deserve it." And you can imagine them cheering him on, saying, imagine them cheering him on, saying, imagine them cheering him on, saying, "Yeah, get him, Paul." And then he "Yeah, get him, Paul." And then he "Yeah, get him, Paul." And then he doesn't go straight to, and here's the doesn't go straight to, and here's the doesn't go straight to, and here's the gospel in chapter 3 for those dirty gospel in chapter 3 for those dirty gospel in chapter 3 for those dirty pagans. He has chapter two, which is, pagans. He has chapter two, which is, pagans. He has chapter two, which is, "Oh, and you too. You're also lost.

"Oh, and you too. You're also lost. "Oh, and you too. You're also lost. You're also the problem because you're You're also the problem because you're You're also the problem because you're trusting in your own righteousness." So trusting in your own righteousness." So trusting in your own righteousness." So Keller had had that way of subversively Keller had had that way of subversively Keller had had that way of subversively sneaking up on us in our pride and sneaking up on us in our pride and sneaking up on us in our pride and showing us our need for gospel grace. showing us our need for gospel grace. showing us our need for gospel grace. >> And he was very winsome about it. He was >> And he was very winsome about it. He was >> And he was very winsome about it. He was wasn't particularly condemning. It would wasn't particularly condemning. It would wasn't particularly condemning. It would be like, you know, the promise of money be like, you know, the promise of money be like, you know, the promise of money and success and career. It was, you and success and career. It was, you and success and career. It was, you know, wonderful and tempting and and it know, wonderful and tempting and and it know, wonderful and tempting and and it makes you feel good. makes you feel good. makes you feel good. >> And you know, it's not enough. So now >> And you know, it's not enough. So now >> And you know, it's not enough. So now what? Because here's what it's doing to what? Because here's what it's doing to what? Because here's what it's doing to you. It's doing this. It's doing that. you. It's doing this. It's doing that. you. It's doing this. It's doing that. It's doing this. It's doing that. And It's doing this. It's doing that. And It's doing this. It's doing that. And then people are like, "That's right. then people are like, "That's right. then people are like, "That's right. >> So now what? Well, maybe you need to >> So now what? Well, maybe you need to >> So now what? Well, maybe you need to meet Jesus." It was that kind of vibe, meet Jesus." It was that kind of vibe, meet Jesus." It was that kind of vibe, right? That was the recurring theme. One right? That was the recurring theme. One right? That was the recurring theme. One of the I went back into my notes and I of the I went back into my notes and I of the I went back into my notes and I sent you some of the notes in the clip sent you some of the notes in the clip sent you some of the notes in the clip because one of my favorite moments when because one of my favorite moments when because one of my favorite moments when I did the first interview with him in I did the first interview with him in I did the first interview with him in New York in person uh 5 years ago was I New York in person uh 5 years ago was I New York in person uh 5 years ago was I asked him if he was starting over again, asked him if he was starting over again, asked him if he was starting over again, what would he do differently? And he what would he do differently? And he what would he do differently? And he said by the time he started in ministry said by the time he started in ministry said by the time he started in ministry in the 80s, the the parent apologetic, in the 80s, the the parent apologetic, in the 80s, the the parent apologetic, just to give, you know, listeners a a just to give, you know, listeners a a just to give, you know, listeners a a recap, you know, his parents' generation recap, you know, his parents' generation recap, you know, his parents' generation was kind of like here's the standard.

was kind of like here's the standard. was kind of like here's the standard. You fall short. Um, you know, Christ is You fall short. Um, you know, Christ is You fall short. Um, you know, Christ is is is the gap and you're missing the is is the gap and you're missing the is is the gap and you're missing the mark. And he said that was already mark. And he said that was already mark. And he said that was already wearing thin by the late 80s, early 90s wearing thin by the late 80s, early 90s wearing thin by the late 80s, early 90s because not everybody said, "Well, what because not everybody said, "Well, what because not everybody said, "Well, what mark and how does that go?" And then I mark and how does that go?" And then I mark and how does that go?" And then I asked him if he was starting a day, what asked him if he was starting a day, what asked him if he was starting a day, what would he change again? And so he said he would he change again? And so he said he would he change again? And so he said he was kind of working out of the uh you was kind of working out of the uh you was kind of working out of the uh you know most of his time in New York know most of his time in New York know most of his time in New York through the counterfeit gods idol through the counterfeit gods idol through the counterfeit gods idol disordered loves framework where well of disordered loves framework where well of disordered loves framework where well of course relationships are going to let course relationships are going to let course relationships are going to let you down you know money is not going to you down you know money is not going to you down you know money is not going to be enough and you know success and fame be enough and you know success and fame be enough and you know success and fame well it comes and then it goes so where well it comes and then it goes so where well it comes and then it goes so where does it leave you and so he was always does it leave you and so he was always does it leave you and so he was always in that disordered loves in that disordered loves in that disordered loves >> counterfeit gods framework >> counterfeit gods framework >> counterfeit gods framework >> but he said if he was starting over >> but he said if he was starting over >> but he said if he was starting over again and this was again five years ago again and this was again five years ago again and this was again five years ago he said you probably focus on identity he said you probably focus on identity he said you probably focus on identity because everything had become so because everything had become so because everything had become so identity based from our sexuality to our identity based from our sexuality to our identity based from our sexuality to our income to our status to our privilege to income to our status to our privilege to income to our status to our privilege to whatever. And you know I think he whatever. And you know I think he whatever. And you know I think he commented that Christianity is the only commented that Christianity is the only commented that Christianity is the only identity that could be received not identity that could be received not identity that could be received not achieved.

achieved. achieved. >> Mhm. And that of course if you achieve >> Mhm. And that of course if you achieve >> Mhm. And that of course if you achieve something well your marriage can fall something well your marriage can fall something well your marriage can fall apart or you can go bankrupt or you can apart or you can go bankrupt or you can apart or you can go bankrupt or you can lose your job or you could today become lose your job or you could today become lose your job or you could today become John Ham and your friends and neighbors John Ham and your friends and neighbors John Ham and your friends and neighbors and turn to a life of crime or whatever and turn to a life of crime or whatever and turn to a life of crime or whatever it happens to be right and I'm just it happens to be right and I'm just it happens to be right and I'm just curious you know when you have gone curious you know when you have gone curious you know when you have gone through his 50 years of of public work through his 50 years of of public work through his 50 years of of public work uh whether you have any thoughts on if uh whether you have any thoughts on if uh whether you have any thoughts on if he was starting over again were there he was starting over again were there he was starting over again were there any themes you think he might punch up any themes you think he might punch up any themes you think he might punch up for this cultural moment or that would for this cultural moment or that would for this cultural moment or that would be appropriate themes for those of of us be appropriate themes for those of of us be appropriate themes for those of of us who are left to punch out for this who are left to punch out for this who are left to punch out for this moment. moment. moment. >> Yeah. Well, I do think he would have >> Yeah. Well, I do think he would have >> Yeah. Well, I do think he would have continued to be focusing on identity continued to be focusing on identity continued to be focusing on identity because I I think he saw that as the because I I think he saw that as the because I I think he saw that as the biggest rival God uh in in in the sense biggest rival God uh in in in the sense biggest rival God uh in in in the sense of an idol of personal freedom u an of an idol of personal freedom u an of an idol of personal freedom u an identity established apart from identity established apart from identity established apart from belonging to Jesus Christ. Um, and he belonging to Jesus Christ. Um, and he belonging to Jesus Christ. Um, and he had a book in the works on identity that had a book in the works on identity that had a book in the works on identity that I'm really sad did didn't see the light I'm really sad did didn't see the light I'm really sad did didn't see the light of day. Uh because because I I just of day. Uh because because I I just of day. Uh because because I I just think that think that think that fundamentally fundamentally fundamentally when we engage our unbelieving friends when we engage our unbelieving friends when we engage our unbelieving friends and neighbors in the late modern west, and neighbors in the late modern west, and neighbors in the late modern west, that really is the tension is that they that really is the tension is that they that really is the tension is that they are wanting to find peace, happiness, are wanting to find peace, happiness, are wanting to find peace, happiness, fulfillment outside of the only place fulfillment outside of the only place fulfillment outside of the only place where it's available. And Keller had

where it's available. And Keller had where it's available. And Keller had such a wonderful way of showing the such a wonderful way of showing the such a wonderful way of showing the bankruptcy of that. He would contrast bankruptcy of that. He would contrast bankruptcy of that. He would contrast traditional cultures uh where you were traditional cultures uh where you were traditional cultures uh where you were often reduced to your duties with modern often reduced to your duties with modern often reduced to your duties with modern culture where you're often reduced to culture where you're often reduced to culture where you're often reduced to your desires your desires your desires with in a sense biblical culture where with in a sense biblical culture where with in a sense biblical culture where you're not beholden to duties or desires you're not beholden to duties or desires you're not beholden to duties or desires but you belong to Jesus Christ. Um but but you belong to Jesus Christ. Um but but you belong to Jesus Christ. Um but what is our only comfort? What is our what is our only comfort? What is our what is our only comfort? What is our only hope in life and in death? The only hope in life and in death? The only hope in life and in death? The first answer of the H Highidleberg first answer of the H Highidleberg first answer of the H Highidleberg catechism which Tim loved to quote that catechism which Tim loved to quote that catechism which Tim loved to quote that I am not my own but belong body and soul I am not my own but belong body and soul I am not my own but belong body and soul to my faithful savior Jesus Christ. So to my faithful savior Jesus Christ. So to my faithful savior Jesus Christ. So that idea of belonging and identity in that idea of belonging and identity in that idea of belonging and identity in an age of um of an age of um of an age of um of trying to u market oneself and create an trying to u market oneself and create an trying to u market oneself and create an ident identity as you said rather than ident identity as you said rather than ident identity as you said rather than receiving it is something I would have receiving it is something I would have receiving it is something I would have loved to see him weigh into even more. loved to see him weigh into even more. loved to see him weigh into even more. And Carrie one other I'll say you And Carrie one other I'll say you And Carrie one other I'll say you mentioned you've had John Mark Comr on a mentioned you've had John Mark Comr on a mentioned you've had John Mark Comr on a few times. I do I do think Keller would few times. I do I do think Keller would few times. I do I do think Keller would have been a really wonderful voice in have been a really wonderful voice in have been a really wonderful voice in the spiritual formation conversations. I the spiritual formation conversations. I the spiritual formation conversations. I would have loved to see uh kind of the would have loved to see uh kind of the would have loved to see uh kind of the approach he would have taken in engaging approach he would have taken in engaging approach he would have taken in engaging um with some of those conversations. I um with some of those conversations. I um with some of those conversations. I think the closest we see him doing that think the closest we see him doing that think the closest we see him doing that is in his 2014 book on prayer. Um but I is in his 2014 book on prayer. Um but I is in his 2014 book on prayer. Um but I think that when it comes to habits and think that when it comes to habits and think that when it comes to habits and spiritual disciplines uh he would have

spiritual disciplines uh he would have spiritual disciplines uh he would have been able to bring out the best of his been able to bring out the best of his been able to bring out the best of his own reformed tradition uh in a way that own reformed tradition uh in a way that own reformed tradition uh in a way that still maintained the I mean you see it still maintained the I mean you see it still maintained the I mean you see it in the prayer book the the subtitle is in the prayer book the the subtitle is in the prayer book the the subtitle is experiencing awe and intimacy with God. experiencing awe and intimacy with God. experiencing awe and intimacy with God. So So So walking with Jesus is not meant to be a walking with Jesus is not meant to be a walking with Jesus is not meant to be a dry intellectual endeavor. It's meant to dry intellectual endeavor. It's meant to dry intellectual endeavor. It's meant to be a vibrant, dynamic encounter with be a vibrant, dynamic encounter with be a vibrant, dynamic encounter with gospel grace in the person of the friend gospel grace in the person of the friend gospel grace in the person of the friend of sinners. Today's episode is brought of sinners. Today's episode is brought of sinners. Today's episode is brought to you by Spiritual Gifts Plus. So, if to you by Spiritual Gifts Plus. So, if to you by Spiritual Gifts Plus. So, if you're like most pastors I talk to, you're like most pastors I talk to, you're like most pastors I talk to, you're struggling to find volunteers and you're struggling to find volunteers and you're struggling to find volunteers and you're probably struggling even more to you're probably struggling even more to you're probably struggling even more to keep them. Well, what if I told you one keep them. Well, what if I told you one keep them. Well, what if I told you one simple change this year could double simple change this year could double simple change this year could double your volunteer retention and boost your volunteer retention and boost your volunteer retention and boost church volunteer satisfaction by 80%. church volunteer satisfaction by 80%. church volunteer satisfaction by 80%. You want to know what it is, right? You want to know what it is, right? You want to know what it is, right? Well, here it is. Stop pitching people Well, here it is. Stop pitching people Well, here it is. Stop pitching people where you have a need and start placing where you have a need and start placing where you have a need and start placing them where they're gifted. So, the them where they're gifted. So, the them where they're gifted. So, the easiest way to do that is by upgrading easiest way to do that is by upgrading easiest way to do that is by upgrading your membership track with your membership track with your membership track with spiritualgiftsplus.com.

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regular basis. You're a church planter. regular basis. You're a church planter. Are there any themes from Keller that Are there any themes from Keller that Are there any themes from Keller that you're integrating into your own you're integrating into your own you're integrating into your own preaching right now in this cultural preaching right now in this cultural preaching right now in this cultural moment that you're finding particularly moment that you're finding particularly moment that you're finding particularly helpful or resonating with your church helpful or resonating with your church helpful or resonating with your church which I believe is in Virginia, right? which I believe is in Virginia, right? which I believe is in Virginia, right? >> Yes. Richmond, Virginia. Um >> Yes. Richmond, Virginia. Um >> Yes. Richmond, Virginia. Um no, 30 minutes. And I I've gotten to no, 30 minutes. And I I've gotten to no, 30 minutes. And I I've gotten to I've gotten to visit Hopewell on a I've gotten to visit Hopewell on a I've gotten to visit Hopewell on a couple of occasions and um see the sites couple of occasions and um see the sites couple of occasions and um see the sites there. Uh, there. Uh, there. Uh, one thing that I'm trying to do in my one thing that I'm trying to do in my one thing that I'm trying to do in my preaching is preaching is preaching is go subterranean for for lack of a better go subterranean for for lack of a better go subterranean for for lack of a better word. So, I think it it can be easy in word. So, I think it it can be easy in word. So, I think it it can be easy in our day and age to want preachers to our day and age to want preachers to our day and age to want preachers to just denounce just denounce just denounce cultural idols on the surface. cultural idols on the surface. cultural idols on the surface. um political idols and and various um political idols and and various um political idols and and various things, you know, denounce societal things, you know, denounce societal things, you know, denounce societal evils. And I do that and and I and I do evils. And I do that and and I and I do evils. And I do that and and I and I do that in so far as that's where scripture that in so far as that's where scripture that in so far as that's where scripture takes me. I mean, I'm committed to takes me. I mean, I'm committed to takes me. I mean, I'm committed to expositional preaching usually and just expositional preaching usually and just expositional preaching usually and just the Bible's kind of setting the agenda the Bible's kind of setting the agenda the Bible's kind of setting the agenda for what we're looking at this morning.

for what we're looking at this morning. for what we're looking at this morning. But But But um what I'm trying to do is realize that um what I'm trying to do is realize that um what I'm trying to do is realize that what's animating all of these modern what's animating all of these modern what's animating all of these modern cultural idols is this undercurrent of cultural idols is this undercurrent of cultural idols is this undercurrent of expressive individualism. This idea expressive individualism. This idea expressive individualism. This idea again I belong to myself. I answer to again I belong to myself. I answer to again I belong to myself. I answer to myself. My friend Jonathan Leman has a myself. My friend Jonathan Leman has a myself. My friend Jonathan Leman has a brilliant observation where he says brilliant observation where he says brilliant observation where he says individualism individualism individualism is not being anti-comm community. I is not being anti-comm community. I is not being anti-comm community. I think when we think of individualism, we think when we think of individualism, we think when we think of individualism, we think, okay, that's anti- community. He think, okay, that's anti- community. He think, okay, that's anti- community. He says, no, with the exception of the says, no, with the exception of the says, no, with the exception of the hermit, everyone wants community. hermit, everyone wants community. hermit, everyone wants community. Individualism is not so much anti- Individualism is not so much anti- Individualism is not so much anti- community as it is anti- authority. We community as it is anti- authority. We community as it is anti- authority. We don't want anyone else telling us what don't want anyone else telling us what don't want anyone else telling us what to do, saying you're I'm in charge of to do, saying you're I'm in charge of to do, saying you're I'm in charge of your life. And man, Keller was your life. And man, Keller was your life. And man, Keller was constantly bringing New Yorkers to constantly bringing New Yorkers to constantly bringing New Yorkers to realize that they were trying to get God realize that they were trying to get God realize that they were trying to get God to live on their terms rather than being to live on their terms rather than being to live on their terms rather than being willing to live on God's. And that's the willing to live on God's. And that's the willing to live on God's. And that's the essence of sin. That's the essence of essence of sin. That's the essence of essence of sin. That's the essence of rebellion. That's the essence of rebellion. That's the essence of rebellion. That's the essence of idolatry. But the greatest news in the idolatry. But the greatest news in the idolatry. But the greatest news in the universe is that what we think will universe is that what we think will universe is that what we think will enslave us is actually the very thing enslave us is actually the very thing enslave us is actually the very thing that will free us. So the world makes it that will free us. So the world makes it that will free us. So the world makes it sound as if following Jesus will shackle sound as if following Jesus will shackle sound as if following Jesus will shackle us and constrain us. But actually, it's us and constrain us. But actually, it's us and constrain us. But actually, it's the very thing for which we were made.

the very thing for which we were made. the very thing for which we were made. And therefore, when we And therefore, when we And therefore, when we find our identity and our belonging in find our identity and our belonging in find our identity and our belonging in him, we're liberated him, we're liberated him, we're liberated to enjoy God and love others. Well, you to enjoy God and love others. Well, you to enjoy God and love others. Well, you know, and it's interesting because I'm know, and it's interesting because I'm know, and it's interesting because I'm always interested in getting better at always interested in getting better at always interested in getting better at preaching and better at communication, preaching and better at communication, preaching and better at communication, but you said something a few minutes ago but you said something a few minutes ago but you said something a few minutes ago I just want to underscore. One of the I just want to underscore. One of the I just want to underscore. One of the things Keller was genius at and you things Keller was genius at and you things Keller was genius at and you articulated it so well is he kind of articulated it so well is he kind of articulated it so well is he kind of sneak up on you with his cultural sneak up on you with his cultural sneak up on you with his cultural exigesis like oh and you know this is exigesis like oh and you know this is exigesis like oh and you know this is what high finance in New York leads to what high finance in New York leads to what high finance in New York leads to and people are like oh yeah yeah you and people are like oh yeah yeah you and people are like oh yeah yeah you understand the world and then he would understand the world and then he would understand the world and then he would sneak in but of course that leaves you sneak in but of course that leaves you sneak in but of course that leaves you bankrupt right and he'd say it in the bankrupt right and he'd say it in the bankrupt right and he'd say it in the nicest tone. It's like but of course nicest tone. It's like but of course nicest tone. It's like but of course that's that's bankrupt like you end up that's that's bankrupt like you end up that's that's bankrupt like you end up with nothing. it your god failed you and with nothing. it your god failed you and with nothing. it your god failed you and people are going oh yeah and then he people are going oh yeah and then he people are going oh yeah and then he cues Jesus right the gospel cues Jesus right the gospel cues Jesus right the gospel >> so that's a that's a very helpful >> so that's a that's a very helpful >> so that's a that's a very helpful formula and interestingly enough when I formula and interestingly enough when I formula and interestingly enough when I was reviewing the interview the first was reviewing the interview the first was reviewing the interview the first one from 2020 he did identify uh growing one from 2020 he did identify uh growing one from 2020 he did identify uh growing factions in politics I think he was factions in politics I think he was factions in politics I think he was increasingly concerned about that uh you increasingly concerned about that uh you increasingly concerned about that uh you know 2016 2020 that people's identity know 2016 2020 that people's identity know 2016 2020 that people's identity was now transferring to who they voted was now transferring to who they voted was now transferring to who they voted for um I am a film in the blank, you for um I am a film in the blank, you for um I am a film in the blank, you know, whatever your partisan position know, whatever your partisan position know, whatever your partisan position was. So interesting. Let's drill down on was. So interesting. Let's drill down on was. So interesting. Let's drill down on the idols. It's such a governing the idols. It's such a governing the idols. It's such a governing framework. That was one of your big framework. That was one of your big framework. That was one of your big chapters in the book. Um you called it chapters in the book. Um you called it chapters in the book. Um you called it disordered loves, which is another way disordered loves, which is another way disordered loves, which is another way of looking at it, but underneath that of looking at it, but underneath that of looking at it, but underneath that was the whole counterfeit gods,

was the whole counterfeit gods, was the whole counterfeit gods, idolatry. Um, I'd love for you to kind idolatry. Um, I'd love for you to kind idolatry. Um, I'd love for you to kind of explain the framework that Keller had of explain the framework that Keller had of explain the framework that Keller had around disordered loves, why that was so around disordered loves, why that was so around disordered loves, why that was so gripping for him, and then what we can gripping for him, and then what we can gripping for him, and then what we can learn from it today. Matt, learn from it today. Matt, learn from it today. Matt, >> so he would always point out that sin is >> so he would always point out that sin is >> so he would always point out that sin is a worship disorder. Sin sin is a worship a worship disorder. Sin sin is a worship a worship disorder. Sin sin is a worship problem fundamentally. It's not merely problem fundamentally. It's not merely problem fundamentally. It's not merely an issue of breaking commandments. In an issue of breaking commandments. In an issue of breaking commandments. In fact, he invoked Martin Luther who fact, he invoked Martin Luther who fact, he invoked Martin Luther who pointed out that we never break. If you pointed out that we never break. If you pointed out that we never break. If you think about the ten commandments, we think about the ten commandments, we think about the ten commandments, we never break commandments two through 10. never break commandments two through 10. never break commandments two through 10. 2 through 10 without first having broken 2 through 10 without first having broken 2 through 10 without first having broken commandment number one. Anytime we're commandment number one. Anytime we're commandment number one. Anytime we're breaking two through 10, it's because we breaking two through 10, it's because we breaking two through 10, it's because we have another God before us, someone else have another God before us, someone else have another God before us, someone else that something else that we're looking that something else that we're looking that something else that we're looking to. But if we were completely happy in to. But if we were completely happy in to. But if we were completely happy in Jesus, if we were completely content in Jesus, if we were completely content in Jesus, if we were completely content in Jesus, we would never break commandments Jesus, we would never break commandments Jesus, we would never break commandments 2 through 10. So worship is uh 2 through 10. So worship is uh 2 through 10. So worship is uh foundational foundational foundational uh to how we're meant to live and uh to how we're meant to live and uh to how we're meant to live and therefore a lack of worship or misplaced therefore a lack of worship or misplaced therefore a lack of worship or misplaced worship because that's the issue. It's worship because that's the issue. It's worship because that's the issue. It's not that you know it's not that we're not that you know it's not that we're not that you know it's not that we're either going to worship or not. The either going to worship or not. The either going to worship or not. The question is what are we going to question is what are we going to question is what are we going to worship? Uh and he did and and the way worship? Uh and he did and and the way worship? Uh and he did and and the way he would often get at this is by asking he would often get at this is by asking he would often get at this is by asking people this is one of the things also people this is one of the things also people this is one of the things also Carrie that I think made his preaching Carrie that I think made his preaching Carrie that I think made his preaching so effective. He wouldn't always answer so effective. He wouldn't always answer so effective. He wouldn't always answer the question for you as if he was just

the question for you as if he was just the question for you as if he was just instructing you. Um he would he would instructing you. Um he would he would instructing you. Um he would he would and let you answer the question for and let you answer the question for and let you answer the question for yourself. Uh which is why I think he had yourself. Uh which is why I think he had yourself. Uh which is why I think he had why he had a gentle touch in many ways why he had a gentle touch in many ways why he had a gentle touch in many ways and why um people were willing to listen and why um people were willing to listen and why um people were willing to listen to him who might be skeptical toward to him who might be skeptical toward to him who might be skeptical toward religion. So for example, he would say religion. So for example, he would say religion. So for example, he would say he would say an idol is a good thing he would say an idol is a good thing he would say an idol is a good thing that's been turned into an ultimate that's been turned into an ultimate that's been turned into an ultimate thing. How do you know that that's thing. How do you know that that's thing. How do you know that that's happened? How do you know that you've happened? How do you know that you've happened? How do you know that you've taken a good thing and turned it into an taken a good thing and turned it into an taken a good thing and turned it into an ultimate thing? He would say, "Well, how ultimate thing? He would say, "Well, how ultimate thing? He would say, "Well, how do you respond when that good thing in do you respond when that good thing in do you respond when that good thing in your life is threatened or lost?" If your life is threatened or lost?" If your life is threatened or lost?" If it's threatened or lost and you respond it's threatened or lost and you respond it's threatened or lost and you respond with sadness with sadness with sadness or disappointment, that's normal. But if or disappointment, that's normal. But if or disappointment, that's normal. But if you respond with downright devastation you respond with downright devastation you respond with downright devastation and despair, well, that's probably and despair, well, that's probably and despair, well, that's probably evidence that that good thing has been evidence that that good thing has been evidence that that good thing has been given a promotion it didn't deserve and given a promotion it didn't deserve and given a promotion it didn't deserve and has been inflated into an ultimate has been inflated into an ultimate has been inflated into an ultimate thing.

thing. thing. >> There's a g that first of all, having >> There's a g that first of all, having >> There's a g that first of all, having listened to hundreds of Keller sermons, listened to hundreds of Keller sermons, listened to hundreds of Keller sermons, great summary. Great summary. Very, very great summary. Great summary. Very, very great summary. Great summary. Very, very true. There was a gentleness in that. true. There was a gentleness in that. true. There was a gentleness in that. When you think about preaching styles When you think about preaching styles When you think about preaching styles today, today, today, um, um, um, in a lot of the popular sermons, there's in a lot of the popular sermons, there's in a lot of the popular sermons, there's not a gentleness anymore. It's a rail not a gentleness anymore. It's a rail not a gentleness anymore. It's a rail against. It's a black and white. against. It's a black and white. against. It's a black and white. >> Do you think that gentleness was a big >> Do you think that gentleness was a big >> Do you think that gentleness was a big part of his effectiveness in New York part of his effectiveness in New York part of his effectiveness in New York City? any thoughts or comments on why City? any thoughts or comments on why City? any thoughts or comments on why that kind of intellectual kind pastoral that kind of intellectual kind pastoral that kind of intellectual kind pastoral approach where the the badumpa you know approach where the the badumpa you know approach where the the badumpa you know Seth Goden says if you're communicating Seth Goden says if you're communicating Seth Goden says if you're communicating well it's sort of you know you want the well it's sort of you know you want the well it's sort of you know you want the audience to finish the song it's sort of audience to finish the song it's sort of audience to finish the song it's sort of da da you want them to get that last da da you want them to get that last da da you want them to get that last three bars three bars three bars >> and that seems like that's what Keller >> and that seems like that's what Keller >> and that seems like that's what Keller did the deconstruction of the idol did the deconstruction of the idol did the deconstruction of the idol didn't happen obviously it happened didn't happen obviously it happened didn't happen obviously it happened through his mouth but it kind of through his mouth but it kind of through his mouth but it kind of happened in the reader's heart and head happened in the reader's heart and head happened in the reader's heart and head it's like oh Ah, when I lost that, I it's like oh Ah, when I lost that, I it's like oh Ah, when I lost that, I lost it. Oh, I guess I have a problem.

lost it. Oh, I guess I have a problem. lost it. Oh, I guess I have a problem. Rather than him railing against you that Rather than him railing against you that Rather than him railing against you that you have a problem, Matt, did you know you have a problem, Matt, did you know you have a problem, Matt, did you know that you have a problem? I wonder if that you have a problem? I wonder if that you have a problem? I wonder if that kind of gentleness and approach, do that kind of gentleness and approach, do that kind of gentleness and approach, do you think that was more effective in New you think that was more effective in New you think that was more effective in New York or what what are your thoughts on York or what what are your thoughts on York or what what are your thoughts on that? that? that? >> Well, he knew that people are not argued >> Well, he knew that people are not argued >> Well, he knew that people are not argued into the kingdom and people are not into the kingdom and people are not into the kingdom and people are not scolded into the kingdom. And I think I scolded into the kingdom. And I think I scolded into the kingdom. And I think I think he knew that if he just rails think he knew that if he just rails think he knew that if he just rails against people in their sin and speaks against people in their sin and speaks against people in their sin and speaks again as if he forgets what it was like again as if he forgets what it was like again as if he forgets what it was like to be lost too to be lost too to be lost too from this balcony of superiority. from this balcony of superiority. from this balcony of superiority. Well, what are people going to do? Let's Well, what are people going to do? Let's Well, what are people going to do? Let's say he succeeds in causing people to say he succeeds in causing people to say he succeeds in causing people to feel lousy, causing people to feel feel lousy, causing people to feel feel lousy, causing people to feel guilty. guilty. guilty. They are just going to run from their They are just going to run from their They are just going to run from their bad works to their good works. Th this bad works to their good works. Th this bad works to their good works. Th this gets to the way he would talk about the gets to the way he would talk about the gets to the way he would talk about the gospel. So Luke 15, the two brothers, gospel. So Luke 15, the two brothers, gospel. So Luke 15, the two brothers, if a younger brother comes to his if a younger brother comes to his if a younger brother comes to his senses, he's naturally going to think, senses, he's naturally going to think, senses, he's naturally going to think, "Oh, I need to clean up my life. I need "Oh, I need to clean up my life. I need "Oh, I need to clean up my life. I need to be more like my older brother. I need to be more like my older brother. I need to be more like my older brother. I need to go join my older brother out in the to go join my older brother out in the to go join my older brother out in the field."

field." field." Keller was constantly showing, "No, Keller was constantly showing, "No, Keller was constantly showing, "No, there's one way to be saved, but there there's one way to be saved, but there there's one way to be saved, but there are two ways to be lost. You can be lost are two ways to be lost. You can be lost are two ways to be lost. You can be lost in your religion. You can be lost in in your religion. You can be lost in in your religion. You can be lost in your morality." Um, and I end I I I end your morality." Um, and I end I I I end your morality." Um, and I end I I I end one of the chapters in the book with one of the chapters in the book with one of the chapters in the book with this beautiful image from a 17th century this beautiful image from a 17th century this beautiful image from a 17th century Puritan who's on his deathbed. And he Puritan who's on his deathbed. And he Puritan who's on his deathbed. And he says, "I have made a heap of all my bad says, "I have made a heap of all my bad says, "I have made a heap of all my bad works and a heap of all my good works works and a heap of all my good works works and a heap of all my good works and I have fled them both to Jesus and I have fled them both to Jesus and I have fled them both to Jesus Christ." Christ." Christ." I think that really captures the way I think that really captures the way I think that really captures the way Keller talked about sin and grace Keller talked about sin and grace Keller talked about sin and grace because the the default tendency of the because the the default tendency of the because the the default tendency of the human heart is going to be to flee our human heart is going to be to flee our human heart is going to be to flee our pile of bad works to our pile of good pile of bad works to our pile of good pile of bad works to our pile of good works. But Keller was so good at saying, works. But Keller was so good at saying, works. But Keller was so good at saying, "No, you actually need to flee both and "No, you actually need to flee both and "No, you actually need to flee both and collapse into the open arms of Jesus collapse into the open arms of Jesus collapse into the open arms of Jesus Christ." And so that's you're putting Christ." And so that's you're putting Christ." And so that's you're putting your finger carry on a gentleness. But I your finger carry on a gentleness. But I your finger carry on a gentleness. But I think that's why there was that think that's why there was that think that's why there was that gentleness is because Keller wasn't just gentleness is because Keller wasn't just gentleness is because Keller wasn't just an older brother in Luke 15, you know, an older brother in Luke 15, you know, an older brother in Luke 15, you know, out in the field trying to scold younger out in the field trying to scold younger out in the field trying to scold younger brothers in saying, "Come join me out brothers in saying, "Come join me out brothers in saying, "Come join me out here here here >> as we make a name for oursel and as we >> as we make a name for oursel and as we >> as we make a name for oursel and as we please please please >> as we please dad by white knuckling >> as we please dad by white knuckling >> as we please dad by white knuckling morality." No, there it everything morality." No, there it everything morality." No, there it everything Keller wrote and said was was tinged Keller wrote and said was was tinged Keller wrote and said was was tinged with this awareness that we are lost. We with this awareness that we are lost. We with this awareness that we are lost. We are bankrupt. We are sinners saved by are bankrupt. We are sinners saved by are bankrupt. We are sinners saved by grace.

grace. grace. And we're, you know, as it's been said, And we're, you know, as it's been said, And we're, you know, as it's been said, we're just one beggar telling another we're just one beggar telling another we're just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. beggar where to find bread. beggar where to find bread. >> H there's some other themes that you >> H there's some other themes that you >> H there's some other themes that you raise in the book that are really good, raise in the book that are really good, raise in the book that are really good, which is which is another good theme to which is which is another good theme to which is which is another good theme to kind of highlight. I mean, you've got kind of highlight. I mean, you've got kind of highlight. I mean, you've got numerous chapters. Uh, I loved the the numerous chapters. Uh, I loved the the numerous chapters. Uh, I loved the the thing about um three ways to live. Um, I thing about um three ways to live. Um, I thing about um three ways to live. Um, I loved the disordered loves. Um, so that loved the disordered loves. Um, so that loved the disordered loves. Um, so that leads me to my next question, which is, leads me to my next question, which is, leads me to my next question, which is, you know, you you you brought out and I you know, you you you brought out and I you know, you you you brought out and I thought very helpfully because it was thought very helpfully because it was thought very helpfully because it was something I couldn't articulate. Another something I couldn't articulate. Another something I couldn't articulate. Another of the dominating themes often after of the dominating themes often after of the dominating themes often after idolatry or whatever angle he was idolatry or whatever angle he was idolatry or whatever angle he was tackling it from is or it could be tackling it from is or it could be tackling it from is or it could be friendship or whatever was you you just friendship or whatever was you you just friendship or whatever was you you just need to fall in love with Jesus. Like if need to fall in love with Jesus. Like if need to fall in love with Jesus. Like if your primary love is Jesus, your primary love is Jesus, your primary love is Jesus, >> you're going to be okay. It's going to >> you're going to be okay. It's going to >> you're going to be okay. It's going to be better than your marriage, better be better than your marriage, better be better than your marriage, better than your parenting, better than your than your parenting, better than your than your parenting, better than your success, better than your career, better success, better than your career, better success, better than your career, better than your money. You need to fall in than your money. You need to fall in than your money. You need to fall in love with Jesus. And then there was that love with Jesus. And then there was that love with Jesus. And then there was that type that he would say Jesus is the type that he would say Jesus is the type that he would say Jesus is the better older brother. Jesus is the better older brother. Jesus is the better older brother. Jesus is the perfect Jonah. Jesus is, you know, perfect Jonah. Jesus is, you know, perfect Jonah. Jesus is, you know, unlike Joseph, he had better brothers.

unlike Joseph, he had better brothers. unlike Joseph, he had better brothers. He was the better Joseph. He was the He was the better Joseph. He was the He was the better Joseph. He was the better Daniel. That comes out over and better Daniel. That comes out over and better Daniel. That comes out over and over again. Jesus is the ultimate over again. Jesus is the ultimate over again. Jesus is the ultimate example. But then also, and you need to example. But then also, and you need to example. But then also, and you need to fall in love with Jesus. How was that a fall in love with Jesus. How was that a fall in love with Jesus. How was that a such a deep part of his preaching and such a deep part of his preaching and such a deep part of his preaching and narrative? And secondly, narrative? And secondly, narrative? And secondly, why do you think he kept going there? why do you think he kept going there? why do you think he kept going there? Was that an effective Was that an effective Was that an effective way of communicating that we could all way of communicating that we could all way of communicating that we could all learn from in this moment? Because I think it's a great question, Because I think it's a great question, Carrie. I think that Tim rightly Carrie. I think that Tim rightly Carrie. I think that Tim rightly understood understood understood that a sermon is it may be a powerful that a sermon is it may be a powerful that a sermon is it may be a powerful effective piece of religious effective piece of religious effective piece of religious communication, but a sermon is not yet a communication, but a sermon is not yet a communication, but a sermon is not yet a Christian sermon if it would make sense Christian sermon if it would make sense Christian sermon if it would make sense if Jesus didn't die and rise again. Um, if Jesus didn't die and rise again. Um, if Jesus didn't die and rise again. Um, I if if if what you're saying works I if if if what you're saying works I if if if what you're saying works apart from the gospel, apart from the gospel, apart from the gospel, if if it works, even if Jesus of if if it works, even if Jesus of if if it works, even if Jesus of Nazareth is a corpse somewhere in the Nazareth is a corpse somewhere in the Nazareth is a corpse somewhere in the Middle East, then it's not yet a Middle East, then it's not yet a Middle East, then it's not yet a Christian sermon. Um, and Keller wasn't Christian sermon. Um, and Keller wasn't Christian sermon. Um, and Keller wasn't content to just preach feel-good content to just preach feel-good content to just preach feel-good religious messages or even merely religious messages or even merely religious messages or even merely theistic messages. Um, he was preaching theistic messages. Um, he was preaching theistic messages. Um, he was preaching messages that would have gotten him messages that would have gotten him messages that would have gotten him kicked out of Jewish synagogues because kicked out of Jewish synagogues because kicked out of Jewish synagogues because he was proclaiming Jesus not just as a he was proclaiming Jesus not just as a he was proclaiming Jesus not just as a prophet to emulate, but fundamentally as

prophet to emulate, but fundamentally as prophet to emulate, but fundamentally as the savior who's lived the life we the savior who's lived the life we the savior who's lived the life we failed to live, died the death we failed to live, died the death we failed to live, died the death we deserve to die, and risen again. So that deserve to die, and risen again. So that deserve to die, and risen again. So that if we turn from our sin and put our if we turn from our sin and put our if we turn from our sin and put our trust in him, if we're united to him by trust in him, if we're united to him by trust in him, if we're united to him by faith, we can have confidence that one faith, we can have confidence that one faith, we can have confidence that one day we'll rise right along with him with day we'll rise right along with him with day we'll rise right along with him with resurrected bodies fit for a resurrected resurrected bodies fit for a resurrected resurrected bodies fit for a resurrected earth. He never grew tired of that earth. He never grew tired of that earth. He never grew tired of that message. In fact, at one point, uh, he message. In fact, at one point, uh, he message. In fact, at one point, uh, he was responding to the imaginary objector was responding to the imaginary objector was responding to the imaginary objector who says, "Well, won't talking about, who says, "Well, won't talking about, who says, "Well, won't talking about, uh, Jesus over and over again become a uh, Jesus over and over again become a uh, Jesus over and over again become a bit tired and predictable?" And he he bit tired and predictable?" And he he bit tired and predictable?" And he he said, quote, I can speak from 40 years said, quote, I can speak from 40 years said, quote, I can speak from 40 years of experience to tell you that the story of experience to tell you that the story of experience to tell you that the story of this one individual never needs to of this one individual never needs to of this one individual never needs to become repetitious. It contains the become repetitious. It contains the become repetitious. It contains the whole history of the universe and of whole history of the universe and of whole history of the universe and of humankind alike and is the only humankind alike and is the only humankind alike and is the only resolution of the plot lines of every resolution of the plot lines of every resolution of the plot lines of every one of our lives. And so the reason that one of our lives. And so the reason that one of our lives. And so the reason that finding Jesus in every passage, finding Jesus in every passage, finding Jesus in every passage, proclaiming Christ in every sermon was proclaiming Christ in every sermon was proclaiming Christ in every sermon was not monotonous is because Jesus is less not monotonous is because Jesus is less not monotonous is because Jesus is less like a an intriguing where's Waldo like a an intriguing where's Waldo like a an intriguing where's Waldo answer and more like water for our answer and more like water for our answer and more like water for our deepest thirst. We were made to know and deepest thirst. We were made to know and deepest thirst. We were made to know and enjoy him. And so Keller was just enjoy him. And so Keller was just enjoy him. And so Keller was just wanting to bring us to the fountain so wanting to bring us to the fountain so wanting to bring us to the fountain so that we could drink and be satisfied to that we could drink and be satisfied to that we could drink and be satisfied to taste and see that the Lord Jesus is taste and see that the Lord Jesus is taste and see that the Lord Jesus is good.

good. good. That narrative, the Jesus is the, you That narrative, the Jesus is the, you That narrative, the Jesus is the, you know, better older brother, the savior, know, better older brother, the savior, know, better older brother, the savior, um the one who satisfies all of your um the one who satisfies all of your um the one who satisfies all of your needs. That made it into pretty much needs. That made it into pretty much needs. That made it into pretty much every sermon, didn't it? every sermon, didn't it? every sermon, didn't it? >> Absolutely. I've never I've never >> Absolutely. I've never I've never >> Absolutely. I've never I've never listened to a sermon in which I mean it listened to a sermon in which I mean it listened to a sermon in which I mean it it wasn't always done in the same way. it wasn't always done in the same way. it wasn't always done in the same way. He never It's not like he always said He never It's not like he always said He never It's not like he always said the true and better. the true and better. the true and better. >> I never have heard of Tim Keller's >> I never have heard of Tim Keller's >> I never have heard of Tim Keller's sermon where he didn't sermon where he didn't sermon where he didn't >> proclaim Jesus as the solution, Jesus as >> proclaim Jesus as the solution, Jesus as >> proclaim Jesus as the solution, Jesus as the answer to the problem of sin. the answer to the problem of sin. the answer to the problem of sin. >> Yeah. What do you think that has to >> Yeah. What do you think that has to >> Yeah. What do you think that has to speak to us today speak to us today speak to us today living in the world we live in? Is that living in the world we live in? Is that living in the world we live in? Is that something you've embraced? Is that something you've embraced? Is that something you've embraced? Is that something you recommend? What can we as something you recommend? What can we as something you recommend? What can we as the preachers who carry on learn from the preachers who carry on learn from the preachers who carry on learn from that, do you think, Matt? that, do you think, Matt? that, do you think, Matt? >> Well, here's where I would say there is >> Well, here's where I would say there is >> Well, here's where I would say there is a this gets back to the the danger of a this gets back to the the danger of a this gets back to the the danger of only seeing the tip of the iceberg but only seeing the tip of the iceberg but only seeing the tip of the iceberg but not realizing what was underneath for not realizing what was underneath for not realizing what was underneath for Keller.

Keller. Keller. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> it is possible. It is possible to be so >> it is possible. It is possible to be so >> it is possible. It is possible to be so drawn to and wowed by his cultural drawn to and wowed by his cultural drawn to and wowed by his cultural exugesus and his cultural analysis exugesus and his cultural analysis exugesus and his cultural analysis that we lose the gospel in the process. that we lose the gospel in the process. that we lose the gospel in the process. >> Yeah. And as creative and at times >> Yeah. And as creative and at times >> Yeah. And as creative and at times clever as Tim was, he was never too clever as Tim was, he was never too clever as Tim was, he was never too clever to preach the reality of sin and clever to preach the reality of sin and clever to preach the reality of sin and wrath and justification wrath and justification wrath and justification and and gospel grace. And so I I really and and gospel grace. And so I I really and and gospel grace. And so I I really think Carrie that, you know, if he were think Carrie that, you know, if he were think Carrie that, you know, if he were on this interview rather than me, which on this interview rather than me, which on this interview rather than me, which would make for a much better interview, would make for a much better interview, would make for a much better interview, um I I think he would be pleading. I um I I think he would be pleading. I um I I think he would be pleading. I think he would be at pains to say don't think he would be at pains to say don't think he would be at pains to say don't lose what makes us Christians in the lose what makes us Christians in the lose what makes us Christians in the first place. Don't lose the gospel. Um first place. Don't lose the gospel. Um first place. Don't lose the gospel. Um Jesus is is not just there to give us a Jesus is is not just there to give us a Jesus is is not just there to give us a better way of life. Jesus is there first better way of life. Jesus is there first better way of life. Jesus is there first and foremost to reconcile us to a holy and foremost to reconcile us to a holy and foremost to reconcile us to a holy God. Uh and if your project makes sense God. Uh and if your project makes sense God. Uh and if your project makes sense apart from his death and resurrection, apart from his death and resurrection, apart from his death and resurrection, it's not yet a Christian project. And it's not yet a Christian project. And it's not yet a Christian project. And and I I that's why one of uh near the and I I that's why one of uh near the and I I that's why one of uh near the end of Keller's ministry, he was end of Keller's ministry, he was end of Keller's ministry, he was focusing a lot on the doctrine of of focusing a lot on the doctrine of of focusing a lot on the doctrine of of justification. This actually gets back justification. This actually gets back justification. This actually gets back to the identity thing. Think about it.

to the identity thing. Think about it. to the identity thing. Think about it. If in so far as we recognize and embrace If in so far as we recognize and embrace If in so far as we recognize and embrace that we are made right before a holy God that we are made right before a holy God that we are made right before a holy God through faith alone, it actually frees through faith alone, it actually frees through faith alone, it actually frees us from having to ek out spiritual us from having to ek out spiritual us from having to ek out spiritual meaning on our own. It frees us from meaning on our own. It frees us from meaning on our own. It frees us from having to work our way up to God or having to work our way up to God or having to work our way up to God or prove ourselves better than others, prove ourselves better than others, prove ourselves better than others, especially in our politicized, polarized especially in our politicized, polarized especially in our politicized, polarized world. Uh it's such a liberating message world. Uh it's such a liberating message world. Uh it's such a liberating message that justification is an event not a that justification is an event not a that justification is an event not a process and that in the gospel process and that in the gospel process and that in the gospel a criminal trial becomes an adoption a criminal trial becomes an adoption a criminal trial becomes an adoption ceremony. So, we are we are declared ceremony. So, we are we are declared ceremony. So, we are we are declared righteous in heaven's courtroom. And righteous in heaven's courtroom. And righteous in heaven's courtroom. And then it's like the judge of the universe then it's like the judge of the universe then it's like the judge of the universe says, "And I'm adopting you and taking says, "And I'm adopting you and taking says, "And I'm adopting you and taking you home to my living room and my dining you home to my living room and my dining you home to my living room and my dining room, and you're going to be my son and room, and you're going to be my son and room, and you're going to be my son and daughter forever." That's the kind of daughter forever." That's the kind of daughter forever." That's the kind of thing that Keller loved to proclaim. And thing that Keller loved to proclaim. And thing that Keller loved to proclaim. And I think we have to remember that if I think we have to remember that if I think we have to remember that if we're going to remain meaningfully we're going to remain meaningfully we're going to remain meaningfully Christian.

Christian. Christian. You know, you end on pain and suffering You know, you end on pain and suffering You know, you end on pain and suffering in your book and that's where Tim's, you in your book and that's where Tim's, you in your book and that's where Tim's, you know, he was acquainted with suffering. know, he was acquainted with suffering. know, he was acquainted with suffering. It wasn't his first round of cancer. He It wasn't his first round of cancer. He It wasn't his first round of cancer. He had had, I believe it was thyroid had had, I believe it was thyroid had had, I believe it was thyroid cancer. Kathy had her own challenges cancer. Kathy had her own challenges cancer. Kathy had her own challenges over the years. Their their health over the years. Their their health over the years. Their their health wasn't perfect for the last 20 25 years wasn't perfect for the last 20 25 years wasn't perfect for the last 20 25 years of their life. And yet, they did of their life. And yet, they did of their life. And yet, they did incredible ministry over Tim's last few incredible ministry over Tim's last few incredible ministry over Tim's last few decades. Um, decades. Um, decades. Um, what what in your view did Keller learn what what in your view did Keller learn what what in your view did Keller learn in dying that perhaps you can not learn in dying that perhaps you can not learn in dying that perhaps you can not learn in life? Was there anything that really in life? Was there anything that really in life? Was there anything that really stuck out to you as you had the stuck out to you as you had the stuck out to you as you had the conversations and did the research? conversations and did the research? conversations and did the research? Yeah, there's a powerful essay he wrote Yeah, there's a powerful essay he wrote Yeah, there's a powerful essay he wrote for The Atlantic in 2021 around the same for The Atlantic in 2021 around the same for The Atlantic in 2021 around the same time his book Hope in Times of Fear came time his book Hope in Times of Fear came time his book Hope in Times of Fear came out, which was written under the the out, which was written under the the out, which was written under the the shadow of this bleak medical prognosis shadow of this bleak medical prognosis shadow of this bleak medical prognosis with, you know, stage 4 terminal with, you know, stage 4 terminal with, you know, stage 4 terminal pancreatic cancer. And he talks about pancreatic cancer. And he talks about pancreatic cancer. And he talks about some of the the lessons he and Kathy some of the the lessons he and Kathy some of the the lessons he and Kathy together were learning. and and one of together were learning. and and one of together were learning. and and one of uh I'll just mention two that are really uh I'll just mention two that are really uh I'll just mention two that are really that really struck me uh when I first that really struck me uh when I first that really struck me uh when I first heard them and then when I revisited heard them and then when I revisited heard them and then when I revisited them in preparation for this book. The them in preparation for this book. The them in preparation for this book. The first is that he was quick to say I'm first is that he was quick to say I'm first is that he was quick to say I'm not primarily fighting cancer. I'm not primarily fighting cancer. I'm not primarily fighting cancer. I'm primarily fighting my sin. That's the primarily fighting my sin. That's the primarily fighting my sin. That's the biggest fight every day because I'm biggest fight every day because I'm biggest fight every day because I'm going to die of something someday. But I going to die of something someday. But I going to die of something someday. But I need to fight my sin so that I am ready

need to fight my sin so that I am ready need to fight my sin so that I am ready to be with a sinless God, a pure and to be with a sinless God, a pure and to be with a sinless God, a pure and holy God. And that was just so holy God. And that was just so holy God. And that was just so counterintuitive when he first said counterintuitive when he first said counterintuitive when he first said that. But you could tell he meant that. that. But you could tell he meant that. that. But you could tell he meant that. He was he was actually going even deeper He was he was actually going even deeper He was he was actually going even deeper into some of the the work of his um into some of the the work of his um into some of the the work of his um Puritan forebears and thinking about Puritan forebears and thinking about Puritan forebears and thinking about mortification and and putting to death mortification and and putting to death mortification and and putting to death um pride, idolatry, stuff he had um pride, idolatry, stuff he had um pride, idolatry, stuff he had preached against for years, but anxiety preached against for years, but anxiety preached against for years, but anxiety and finding his hope, his rest, his and finding his hope, his rest, his and finding his hope, his rest, his peace in Christ alone. The other thing peace in Christ alone. The other thing peace in Christ alone. The other thing he and Kathy were learning together is he and Kathy were learning together is he and Kathy were learning together is that for so many years they had that for so many years they had that for so many years they had basically tried to make a heaven out of basically tried to make a heaven out of basically tried to make a heaven out of this earth. Uh Kathy would be tempted to this earth. Uh Kathy would be tempted to this earth. Uh Kathy would be tempted to do that through family vacations and how do that through family vacations and how do that through family vacations and how much energy and attention and focus she much energy and attention and focus she much energy and attention and focus she put on those. For Tim it was not that. put on those. For Tim it was not that. put on those. For Tim it was not that. For Tim it was ministry productivity. For Tim it was ministry productivity. For Tim it was ministry productivity. Even when he was on vacation you know Even when he was on vacation you know Even when he was on vacation you know he's thinking about the next project. he's thinking about the next project. he's thinking about the next project. But it was only when they realized they But it was only when they realized they But it was only when they realized they had such little time left together had such little time left together had such little time left together that in a sense that in a sense that in a sense when they stopped trying to make a when they stopped trying to make a when they stopped trying to make a heaven out of this earth and they and heaven out of this earth and they and heaven out of this earth and they and they let heaven be heaven and this earth they let heaven be heaven and this earth they let heaven be heaven and this earth just be what it is. So that they were no just be what it is. So that they were no just be what it is. So that they were no longer trying as it were to squeeze the longer trying as it were to squeeze the longer trying as it were to squeeze the rock expecting the rock to yield water.

rock expecting the rock to yield water. rock expecting the rock to yield water. Expecting the rock to a rock to yield Expecting the rock to a rock to yield Expecting the rock to a rock to yield something it was never meant to give us. something it was never meant to give us. something it was never meant to give us. when they could just embrace the gifts when they could just embrace the gifts when they could just embrace the gifts of God. As it's been said, the things of of God. As it's been said, the things of of God. As it's been said, the things of earth will grow strangely bright. Yes, earth will grow strangely bright. Yes, earth will grow strangely bright. Yes, there's a sense in which they grow there's a sense in which they grow there's a sense in which they grow strangely dim in the light of his glory strangely dim in the light of his glory strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace, and grace, and grace, but there's also a sense in which they but there's also a sense in which they but there's also a sense in which they can grow strangely bright when we put can grow strangely bright when we put can grow strangely bright when we put them in their proper place and realize them in their proper place and realize them in their proper place and realize that um only Jesus can satisfy us. But that um only Jesus can satisfy us. But that um only Jesus can satisfy us. But other things can delight us when they're other things can delight us when they're other things can delight us when they're in their proper relationship to him. in their proper relationship to him. in their proper relationship to him. >> You wrote about this, I think for the >> You wrote about this, I think for the >> You wrote about this, I think for the last 20 some odd years. They prayed last 20 some odd years. They prayed last 20 some odd years. They prayed together every day, every night. together every day, every night. together every day, every night. >> Um, Tim and Kathy. And I believe the >> Um, Tim and Kathy. And I believe the >> Um, Tim and Kathy. And I believe the quote was something, and this is Kathy quote was something, and this is Kathy quote was something, and this is Kathy or Tim. Imagine there was a pill that if or Tim. Imagine there was a pill that if or Tim. Imagine there was a pill that if you did not take it every single day, you did not take it every single day, you did not take it every single day, you would die. For us, that is prayer. you would die. For us, that is prayer. you would die. For us, that is prayer. And if we don't pray every single day, And if we don't pray every single day, And if we don't pray every single day, we are not going to make it. What is we are not going to make it. What is we are not going to make it. What is under that quote and that impetus to under that quote and that impetus to under that quote and that impetus to pray together as a married couple?

Tim rightly understood the the reason my Tim rightly understood the the reason my chapter on prayer is titled answering chapter on prayer is titled answering chapter on prayer is titled answering God is because that essentially was his God is because that essentially was his God is because that essentially was his two-word definition of prayer. God has two-word definition of prayer. God has two-word definition of prayer. God has initiated a conversation with us, a initiated a conversation with us, a initiated a conversation with us, a conversation we didn't deserve. But he conversation we didn't deserve. But he conversation we didn't deserve. But he he has, as one theologian put it, he's he has, as one theologian put it, he's he has, as one theologian put it, he's forfeited his personal privacy to reveal forfeited his personal privacy to reveal forfeited his personal privacy to reveal himself to us in Christ and in his word. himself to us in Christ and in his word. himself to us in Christ and in his word. He's initiated this conversation. He He's initiated this conversation. He He's initiated this conversation. He could have given us the eternal silent could have given us the eternal silent could have given us the eternal silent treatment, but he has spoken to us. treatment, but he has spoken to us. treatment, but he has spoken to us. Prayer is him inviting us to speak back Prayer is him inviting us to speak back Prayer is him inviting us to speak back to him. So, we hear his voice and in his to him. So, we hear his voice and in his to him. So, we hear his voice and in his word and he hears our voices in prayer. word and he hears our voices in prayer. word and he hears our voices in prayer. And so, prayer is in a sense answering And so, prayer is in a sense answering And so, prayer is in a sense answering God. We're responding. You know, we tell God. We're responding. You know, we tell God. We're responding. You know, we tell our young kids, Carrie, that it's rude our young kids, Carrie, that it's rude our young kids, Carrie, that it's rude not to respond when an when someone not to respond when an when someone not to respond when an when someone talks to them. It's rude to just, you talks to them. It's rude to just, you talks to them. It's rude to just, you know, look away, to act bored. That's know, look away, to act bored. That's know, look away, to act bored. That's what prayerlessness is. God has spoken what prayerlessness is. God has spoken what prayerlessness is. God has spoken to us and we have not just the to us and we have not just the to us and we have not just the obligation, we have the privilege of obligation, we have the privilege of obligation, we have the privilege of responding and going to his throne of responding and going to his throne of responding and going to his throne of grace. So I think Keller grace. So I think Keller grace. So I think Keller realized not just theologically that realized not just theologically that realized not just theologically that everything I I just said is true. He everything I I just said is true. He everything I I just said is true. He also realized that experientially also realized that experientially also realized that experientially the only way that you're going to access the only way that you're going to access the only way that you're going to access so many of the benefits that are held so many of the benefits that are held so many of the benefits that are held out for us in the gospel understanding out for us in the gospel understanding out for us in the gospel understanding and experiencing our adoption for and experiencing our adoption for and experiencing our adoption for example is going to be accessed through

example is going to be accessed through example is going to be accessed through the intimacy of prayer. One illustration the intimacy of prayer. One illustration the intimacy of prayer. One illustration he he would sometimes share is imagine he he would sometimes share is imagine he he would sometimes share is imagine uh you saw from a distance a father and uh you saw from a distance a father and uh you saw from a distance a father and his young son walking down the street his young son walking down the street his young son walking down the street and all of a sudden the father picks up and all of a sudden the father picks up and all of a sudden the father picks up his son and kisses him and twirls him his son and kisses him and twirls him his son and kisses him and twirls him around and squeezes him and then sets around and squeezes him and then sets around and squeezes him and then sets him back down and they keep walking. him back down and they keep walking. him back down and they keep walking. Here's the question. Was the son legally Here's the question. Was the son legally Here's the question. Was the son legally any more any more any more his father's son when he was in the his father's son when he was in the his father's son when he was in the arms? No. But he was experiencing his arms? No. But he was experiencing his arms? No. But he was experiencing his sunship. sunship. sunship. >> And that is what prayer enables us to >> And that is what prayer enables us to >> And that is what prayer enables us to do. It's like we and that's not to say do. It's like we and that's not to say do. It's like we and that's not to say prayer is easy. Prayer is hard work. prayer is easy. Prayer is hard work. prayer is easy. Prayer is hard work. It's a It's a It's a >> he struggles with prayer, too. >> he struggles with prayer, too. >> he struggles with prayer, too. >> But when we persist, it's like we are >> But when we persist, it's like we are >> But when we persist, it's like we are being brought up into our father's arms being brought up into our father's arms being brought up into our father's arms to experience our theology. What is the to experience our theology. What is the to experience our theology. What is the biggest misreading of Keller today as biggest misreading of Keller today as biggest misreading of Keller today as people understand him and remember him? people understand him and remember him? people understand him and remember him? What What do people not get right?

What What do people not get right? What What do people not get right? >> Again, I I think it's not realizing not realizing that beneath what can seem like a lot of that beneath what can seem like a lot of that beneath what can seem like a lot of sophisticated complexity that there sophisticated complexity that there sophisticated complexity that there actually was just a very simple walk actually was just a very simple walk actually was just a very simple walk with Jesus Christ. Um he was a man of with Jesus Christ. Um he was a man of with Jesus Christ. Um he was a man of the word. He was a man of prayer. He was the word. He was a man of prayer. He was the word. He was a man of prayer. He was a man committed to spiritual a man committed to spiritual a man committed to spiritual disciplines. He was a man rooted in disciplines. He was a man rooted in disciplines. He was a man rooted in historic reformed theology. It wasn't as historic reformed theology. It wasn't as historic reformed theology. It wasn't as fancy as people might assume. U he was fancy as people might assume. U he was fancy as people might assume. U he was just deeply acquainted with the friend just deeply acquainted with the friend just deeply acquainted with the friend of sinners and never grew tired pro of of sinners and never grew tired pro of of sinners and never grew tired pro of proclaiming that treasure. proclaiming that treasure. proclaiming that treasure. >> Well, I love the book. It's called Tim >> Well, I love the book. It's called Tim >> Well, I love the book. It's called Tim Keller on the Christian life. Thank you Keller on the Christian life. Thank you Keller on the Christian life. Thank you for writing it. Thanks for the extensive for writing it. Thanks for the extensive for writing it. Thanks for the extensive research into it. Uh it's going to be uh research into it. Uh it's going to be uh research into it. Uh it's going to be uh a manual I look back at from time to a manual I look back at from time to a manual I look back at from time to time as I think about my own theology, time as I think about my own theology, time as I think about my own theology, my own preaching. A good companion to my own preaching. A good companion to my own preaching. A good companion to the preaching book I think if because the preaching book I think if because the preaching book I think if because you've got the content, the themes in you've got the content, the themes in you've got the content, the themes in his work in public life and you know his work in public life and you know his work in public life and you know then he sorted out the manual and then he sorted out the manual and then he sorted out the manual and preaching. So good one two punch.

preaching. So good one two punch. preaching. So good one two punch. >> Matt, um books available everywhere. >> Matt, um books available everywhere. >> Matt, um books available everywhere. Where can people find you or learn more Where can people find you or learn more Where can people find you or learn more online? online? online? Uh they can find me on X or Instagram. I Uh they can find me on X or Instagram. I Uh they can find me on X or Instagram. I co-host a podcast called The Everyday co-host a podcast called The Everyday co-host a podcast called The Everyday Pastor um with my title Ligan Duncan. So Pastor um with my title Ligan Duncan. So Pastor um with my title Ligan Duncan. So people can tune in to The Everyday people can tune in to The Everyday people can tune in to The Everyday Pastor and uh my my sermons at River Pastor and uh my my sermons at River Pastor and uh my my sermons at River City Baptist Church here in Richmond, City Baptist Church here in Richmond, City Baptist Church here in Richmond, Virginia. Virginia. Virginia. >> Excellent. Matt, thank you so much. I >> Excellent. Matt, thank you so much. I >> Excellent. Matt, thank you so much. I really really appreciate your hard work really really appreciate your hard work really really appreciate your hard work and for coming on and helping so many and for coming on and helping so many and for coming on and helping so many leaders. leaders. leaders. >> Thanks, Carrie. It's been fun.