Is Your Church Ready for a Spiritual Awakening? Church Revival with Al Gordon

I'd say kind of three things are taking I'd say kind of three things are taking place. Number one, um place. Number one, um place. Number one, um the overwhelming sense of the nearness the overwhelming sense of the nearness the overwhelming sense of the nearness of the presence of Jesus. of the presence of Jesus. of the presence of Jesus. That you know, you can't deny that Jesus That you know, you can't deny that Jesus That you know, you can't deny that Jesus is there. Number two, um is there. Number two, um is there. Number two, um the the the kind of the the the kind of the the the kind of acceleration of people getting right acceleration of people getting right acceleration of people getting right with Jesus. That's people inside the with Jesus. That's people inside the with Jesus. That's people inside the church and outside the church. It's church and outside the church. It's church and outside the church. It's conversions and it's commitments, conversions and it's commitments, conversions and it's commitments, re-commitments, people coming back to re-commitments, people coming back to re-commitments, people coming back to Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, the people of God get back in the room, the people of God get back in the room, the people of God get back in the room, and the people who are called by God to and the people who are called by God to and the people who are called by God to be in the room are in the room. So, be in the room are in the room. So, be in the room are in the room. So, conversion, purification, consecration, conversion, purification, consecration, conversion, purification, consecration, the church moving. And the third and the church moving. And the third and the church moving. And the third and almost most important thing that's often almost most important thing that's often almost most important thing that's often neglected neglected neglected Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you've Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you've Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you've joined us and today we are diving into a joined us and today we are diving into a joined us and today we are diving into a conversation with Al Gordon about conversation with Al Gordon about conversation with Al Gordon about revival and pre-revival. I think you're revival and pre-revival. I think you're revival and pre-revival. I think you're going to love it. If you're new here, going to love it. If you're new here, going to love it. If you're new here, make sure you subscribe and check out make sure you subscribe and check out make sure you subscribe and check out our partners for this episode. I want our partners for this episode. I want our partners for this episode. I want you to check out Subsplash. You know you to check out Subsplash. You know you to check out Subsplash. You know what? They put today's most innovative what? They put today's most innovative what? They put today's most innovative technology into your hands with websites technology into your hands with websites technology into your hands with websites and a whole lot more so you can focus on and a whole lot more so you can focus on and a whole lot more so you can focus on ministry. Go to Subsplash.com and join ministry. Go to Subsplash.com and join ministry. Go to Subsplash.com and join over 20,000 other churches and you can over 20,000 other churches and you can over 20,000 other churches and you can schedule a quick no-obligation call and schedule a quick no-obligation call and schedule a quick no-obligation call and uh mention my name, you'll get $500 off uh mention my name, you'll get $500 off uh mention my name, you'll get $500 off when you sign up. And today's episode is when you sign up. And today's episode is when you sign up. And today's episode is brought to you by Gloo Plus. Hey, Gloo brought to you by Gloo Plus. Hey, Gloo brought to you by Gloo Plus. Hey, Gloo Plus is an all-encompassing membership Plus is an all-encompassing membership Plus is an all-encompassing membership community where leaders get access to community where leaders get access to community where leaders get access to everything you could possibly think of everything you could possibly think of everything you could possibly think of that you need for ministry. Head on over

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seeing? seeing? Wow, that's a great I mean, it is a Wow, that's a great I mean, it is a Wow, that's a great I mean, it is a great question. It's an exciting time in great question. It's an exciting time in great question. It's an exciting time in the church around the world. I think the church around the world. I think the church around the world. I think that that that the water is um the water is rising and the water is um the water is rising and the water is um the water is rising and there's a there's a great image that we there's a there's a great image that we there's a there's a great image that we often come back to of the tide. If you often come back to of the tide. If you often come back to of the tide. If you stand down on the shore when the tide is stand down on the shore when the tide is stand down on the shore when the tide is just changing, you can't often see it, just changing, you can't often see it, just changing, you can't often see it, but you begin to see signs that the but you begin to see signs that the but you begin to see signs that the direction of the current is moving direction of the current is moving direction of the current is moving differently and the differently and the differently and the change is super to about sea change change is super to about sea change change is super to about sea change moments. I think in the church in the moments. I think in the church in the moments. I think in the church in the West, we are um at a sea change moment West, we are um at a sea change moment West, we are um at a sea change moment and I think we need to define terms when and I think we need to define terms when and I think we need to define terms when we talk about revival quite carefully. I we talk about revival quite carefully. I we talk about revival quite carefully. I think there are probably two think there are probably two think there are probably two um general terms that we talk about. One um general terms that we talk about. One um general terms that we talk about. One is um Jonathan Edwards talks about the is um Jonathan Edwards talks about the is um Jonathan Edwards talks about the acceleration of the the paraphrasing the acceleration of the the paraphrasing the acceleration of the the paraphrasing the acceleration of the normal Christian acceleration of the normal Christian acceleration of the normal Christian life. Um and it's you know, that that's life. Um and it's you know, that that's life. Um and it's you know, that that's a good acceleration kind of metaphor a good acceleration kind of metaphor a good acceleration kind of metaphor that the revival is about actually God that the revival is about actually God that the revival is about actually God moving with greater intensity in a moving with greater intensity in a moving with greater intensity in a period of time and there are certain period of time and there are certain period of time and there are certain moments when when God breaks into human moments when when God breaks into human moments when when God breaks into human history and there are you know, signs history and there are you know, signs history and there are you know, signs and wonders or a sense of people coming and wonders or a sense of people coming and wonders or a sense of people coming to faith or the renewal of the church. to faith or the renewal of the church. to faith or the renewal of the church. And then I think there's the broader And then I think there's the broader And then I think there's the broader sense of the a kind of awakening of the sense of the a kind of awakening of the sense of the a kind of awakening of the people of God in a generation. Um that people of God in a generation. Um that people of God in a generation. Um that looks like over decades the the the looks like over decades the the the looks like over decades the the the rising of the tide. Sometimes a wave rising of the tide. Sometimes a wave rising of the tide. Sometimes a wave crashes in and you're like, "Wow, your crashes in and you're like, "Wow, your crashes in and you're like, "Wow, your feet are wet." Sometimes the tide comes feet are wet." Sometimes the tide comes feet are wet." Sometimes the tide comes in gradually and you're like, "Oh, the in gradually and you're like, "Oh, the in gradually and you're like, "Oh, the boats are floating." We want both, we boats are floating." We want both, we boats are floating." We want both, we need both, and I think we're beginning need both, and I think we're beginning need both, and I think we're beginning to see both in different places around to see both in different places around to see both in different places around the world. Um and you know, it is a the world. Um and you know, it is a the world. Um and you know, it is a moment where we have to take note, you moment where we have to take note, you moment where we have to take note, you know, we have to be like wise like the know, we have to be like wise like the know, we have to be like wise like the men of Issachar who said, "Well, we they

men of Issachar who said, "Well, we they men of Issachar who said, "Well, we they understood the times." Um it's what you understood the times." Um it's what you understood the times." Um it's what you guys do brilliantly on this podcast. I'm guys do brilliantly on this podcast. I'm guys do brilliantly on this podcast. I'm so grateful for for you and your guests. so grateful for for you and your guests. so grateful for for you and your guests. But, the conversations around how do we But, the conversations around how do we But, the conversations around how do we respond to what God seems to be doing in respond to what God seems to be doing in respond to what God seems to be doing in the moment. And um one thing I can tell the moment. And um one thing I can tell the moment. And um one thing I can tell you is we need more of Jesus. you is we need more of Jesus. you is we need more of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to I'm glad you Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to I'm glad you Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to I'm glad you start with a definition of terms because start with a definition of terms because start with a definition of terms because uh uh uh you know, you were at Asbury, we'll get you know, you were at Asbury, we'll get you know, you were at Asbury, we'll get to that, we'll talk about it. But, but to that, we'll talk about it. But, but to that, we'll talk about it. But, but leading into that and coming out of it, leading into that and coming out of it, leading into that and coming out of it, I've heard a lot of people online talk I've heard a lot of people online talk I've heard a lot of people online talk about revival. And some of that, I never about revival. And some of that, I never about revival. And some of that, I never want to grieve the Holy Spirit. I mean, want to grieve the Holy Spirit. I mean, want to grieve the Holy Spirit. I mean, if it is of God, it is of God, let it if it is of God, it is of God, let it if it is of God, it is of God, let it move, let it let it flow, and we need move, let it let it flow, and we need move, let it let it flow, and we need more of it. But, there can almost be more of it. But, there can almost be more of it. But, there can almost be I don't want to be careful how I phrase I don't want to be careful how I phrase I don't want to be careful how I phrase this, but I think I think people will this, but I think I think people will this, but I think I think people will will understand what I'm trying to say. will understand what I'm trying to say. will understand what I'm trying to say. There's a little bit of bandwagonism, There's a little bit of bandwagonism, There's a little bit of bandwagonism, maybe like, "Ooh, maybe I can have a maybe like, "Ooh, maybe I can have a maybe like, "Ooh, maybe I can have a revival at my church, too. Maybe maybe, revival at my church, too. Maybe maybe, revival at my church, too. Maybe maybe, you know, this is revival. We had five you know, this is revival. We had five you know, this is revival. We had five new people. Is that revival?" Like, what new people. Is that revival?" Like, what new people. Is that revival?" Like, what what what are the characteristics of an what what are the characteristics of an what what are the characteristics of an actual authentic actual authentic actual authentic inimitable revival?

inimitable revival? inimitable revival? Well, I think that's a really good Well, I think that's a really good Well, I think that's a really good point. You know, people talk about I I point. You know, people talk about I I point. You know, people talk about I I remember hearing one church it was like, remember hearing one church it was like, remember hearing one church it was like, "We've got We have a revival every "We've got We have a revival every "We've got We have a revival every autumn. We plan it's like a conference." autumn. We plan it's like a conference." autumn. We plan it's like a conference." And that's Yes, I've seen that. Revival And that's Yes, I've seen that. Revival And that's Yes, I've seen that. Revival tonight at 7:00. Yeah, and I that you tonight at 7:00. Yeah, and I that you tonight at 7:00. Yeah, and I that you know, that's kind of cool. I I'm not know, that's kind of cool. I I'm not know, that's kind of cool. I I'm not like I'm not down on that. I think, you like I'm not down on that. I think, you like I'm not down on that. I think, you know, whatever's fun. Um but, I think know, whatever's fun. Um but, I think know, whatever's fun. Um but, I think what we're talking about here is a what we're talking about here is a what we're talking about here is a sovereign move of God. Um usually sovereign move of God. Um usually sovereign move of God. Um usually preempted, I mean, again, you can study preempted, I mean, again, you can study preempted, I mean, again, you can study this in history, but usually preempted this in history, but usually preempted this in history, but usually preempted by two factors. One is the great need of by two factors. One is the great need of by two factors. One is the great need of the culture, and the other is the great the culture, and the other is the great the culture, and the other is the great hunger of the church. And when the two hunger of the church. And when the two hunger of the church. And when the two collide, they are like a fusion takes collide, they are like a fusion takes collide, they are like a fusion takes place and God chooses you can't you place and God chooses you can't you place and God chooses you can't you can't force God's hand, but there are can't force God's hand, but there are can't force God's hand, but there are moments when God seems to intervene. moments when God seems to intervene. moments when God seems to intervene. We've seen that through the history of We've seen that through the history of We've seen that through the history of the church, whether it's the great the church, whether it's the great the church, whether it's the great awakenings, Azusa Street, when awakenings, Azusa Street, when awakenings, Azusa Street, when you know, if my people who are called by you know, if my people who are called by you know, if my people who are called by my name humble themselves and pray, you my name humble themselves and pray, you my name humble themselves and pray, you know, repent, turn from their wicked know, repent, turn from their wicked know, repent, turn from their wicked ways, then I'll move, I'll come and I'll ways, then I'll move, I'll come and I'll ways, then I'll move, I'll come and I'll heal the land. And we've seen that heal the land. And we've seen that heal the land. And we've seen that throughout the history of the church.

throughout the history of the church. throughout the history of the church. The history of the church is the history The history of the church is the history The history of the church is the history of revival. of revival. of revival. From from the Easter weekend, from the From from the Easter weekend, from the From from the Easter weekend, from the day of Pentecost, all the way through day of Pentecost, all the way through day of Pentecost, all the way through the book of Acts, all the way through the book of Acts, all the way through the book of Acts, all the way through the story of the early church, it has the story of the early church, it has the story of the early church, it has been a a church marked by sovereign been a a church marked by sovereign been a a church marked by sovereign moves of God that often unmerited. moves of God that often unmerited. moves of God that often unmerited. You can't trace them. You can't like You can't trace them. You can't like You can't trace them. You can't like it's not a formula. But what it looked it's not a formula. But what it looked it's not a formula. But what it looked like, I'd say kind of three things are like, I'd say kind of three things are like, I'd say kind of three things are taking place. Number one, taking place. Number one, taking place. Number one, the overwhelming sense of the nearness the overwhelming sense of the nearness the overwhelming sense of the nearness of the presence of Jesus. of the presence of Jesus. of the presence of Jesus. That you know, you can't deny that Jesus That you know, you can't deny that Jesus That you know, you can't deny that Jesus is there. is there. is there. Number two, um Number two, um Number two, um the the kind of the the kind of the the kind of acceleration of people getting right acceleration of people getting right acceleration of people getting right with Jesus. That's people inside the with Jesus. That's people inside the with Jesus. That's people inside the church and outside the church. It's church and outside the church. It's church and outside the church. It's conversions and it's commitments, conversions and it's commitments, conversions and it's commitments, recommitments, people coming back to recommitments, people coming back to recommitments, people coming back to Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, Jesus. So, it's like Jesus in the room, the people of God get back in the room, the people of God get back in the room, the people of God get back in the room, and the people who are called by God to and the people who are called by God to and the people who are called by God to be in the room are in the room. So, be in the room are in the room. So, be in the room are in the room. So, conversion, purification, consecration, conversion, purification, consecration, conversion, purification, consecration, the church moving. And the third and the church moving. And the third and the church moving. And the third and almost most important thing that's often almost most important thing that's often almost most important thing that's often neglected is the fruit, which is often neglected is the fruit, which is often neglected is the fruit, which is often years later.

years later. years later. Um you'll know if it's the Lord because Um you'll know if it's the Lord because Um you'll know if it's the Lord because years later, years later, years later, there will be there will be there will be you know, there'll be people's lives are you know, there'll be people's lives are you know, there'll be people's lives are still changed. There'll be people who still changed. There'll be people who still changed. There'll be people who become become become Christians. You know, I'm never really Christians. You know, I'm never really Christians. You know, I'm never really interested in what God is doing. I mean, interested in what God is doing. I mean, interested in what God is doing. I mean, I'm of course interested in what God is I'm of course interested in what God is I'm of course interested in what God is doing today in the moment, but the fruit doing today in the moment, but the fruit doing today in the moment, but the fruit of it is like 20 years time, are those of it is like 20 years time, are those of it is like 20 years time, are those marriages stronger? People people come marriages stronger? People people come marriages stronger? People people come to know Jesus still, you know, the to know Jesus still, you know, the to know Jesus still, you know, the transformation of society, justice. Are transformation of society, justice. Are transformation of society, justice. Are we more loving? Are we more kind to each we more loving? Are we more kind to each we more loving? Are we more kind to each other? Are churches transformed for the other? Are churches transformed for the other? Are churches transformed for the long term? So, you know, you long term? So, you know, you long term? So, you know, you you really look for these three things. you really look for these three things. you really look for these three things. They're signs that God is really moving. They're signs that God is really moving. They're signs that God is really moving. And you know, it And you know, it And you know, it the revival is not the um the revival is not the um the revival is not the um the kind of normal operating system of the kind of normal operating system of the kind of normal operating system of the church. It is an acceleration for the church. It is an acceleration for the church. It is an acceleration for specific seasons in responses to specific seasons in responses to specific seasons in responses to extraordinary need and great hunger that extraordinary need and great hunger that extraordinary need and great hunger that renews and refreshes the church so that renews and refreshes the church so that renews and refreshes the church so that the church can go and do the thing that the church can go and do the thing that the church can go and do the thing that she's meant to do, which is to bring she's meant to do, which is to bring she's meant to do, which is to bring Jesus to the culture. I don't know if Jesus to the culture. I don't know if Jesus to the culture. I don't know if that's helpful. What what do you feel? that's helpful. What what do you feel? that's helpful. What what do you feel? That's extremely helpful. No, I'm I'm That's extremely helpful. No, I'm I'm That's extremely helpful. No, I'm I'm I'm going to ask you one more question I'm going to ask you one more question I'm going to ask you one more question on it before I I get to it because I on it before I I get to it because I on it before I I get to it because I think, okay, let's talk about a a think, okay, let's talk about a a think, okay, let's talk about a a scenario where the church is growing, scenario where the church is growing, scenario where the church is growing, all right? All of a sudden it's growing.

all right? All of a sudden it's growing. all right? All of a sudden it's growing. And I'm not talking 3% a year. We're And I'm not talking 3% a year. We're And I'm not talking 3% a year. We're talking 10, 20, 30%. talking 10, 20, 30%. talking 10, 20, 30%. People are being baptized. Lives are People are being baptized. Lives are People are being baptized. Lives are being changed. People are moving into being changed. People are moving into being changed. People are moving into small groups. small groups. small groups. What makes church growth? And and I'm What makes church growth? And and I'm What makes church growth? And and I'm not I'm not suggesting this is not I'm not suggesting this is not I'm not suggesting this is manipulative or anything, but what is manipulative or anything, but what is manipulative or anything, but what is the difference between like a period of the difference between like a period of the difference between like a period of growth in the church growth in the church growth in the church versus what historically we might call versus what historically we might call versus what historically we might call revival? revival? revival? Right. Right. Right. Yeah, I think there is a difference. Um Yeah, I think there is a difference. Um Yeah, I think there is a difference. Um Yeah, I think so too, but I don't know Yeah, I think so too, but I don't know Yeah, I think so too, but I don't know what it is. So, that's why I'm asking what it is. So, that's why I'm asking what it is. So, that's why I'm asking the question. Um the question. Um the question. Um It No, I mean It No, I mean It No, I mean there's lots of ways to answer the there's lots of ways to answer the there's lots of ways to answer the question. It's a really nice It's a question. It's a really nice It's a question. It's a really nice It's a really good question. I I think not all really good question. I I think not all really good question. I I think not all growth is revival and not revival leads growth is revival and not revival leads growth is revival and not revival leads to growth. Um to growth. Um to growth. Um and I and I and I It Let Let me explain that a little bit. It Let Let me explain that a little bit. It Let Let me explain that a little bit. I I think revival, when God moves in I I think revival, when God moves in I I think revival, when God moves in great power great power great power in his sovereignty, it it's it it's in his sovereignty, it it's it it's in his sovereignty, it it's it it's always because God really really wants always because God really really wants always because God really really wants to reach people who don't know him.

to reach people who don't know him. to reach people who don't know him. That doesn't always lead to growth. Uh That doesn't always lead to growth. Uh That doesn't always lead to growth. Uh churches can quench moves of the spirit. churches can quench moves of the spirit. churches can quench moves of the spirit. Um at the same time, Um at the same time, Um at the same time, you know, there there's natural growth you know, there there's natural growth you know, there there's natural growth and and good growth on the vine that is and and good growth on the vine that is and and good growth on the vine that is just that's that's not down to sovereign just that's that's not down to sovereign just that's that's not down to sovereign moves of God. It's you know, moves of God. It's you know, moves of God. It's you know, you look at this in the life of Jesus, you look at this in the life of Jesus, you look at this in the life of Jesus, the ministry of Jesus. You you see um, the ministry of Jesus. You you see um, the ministry of Jesus. You you see um, quite often he's like, "Hey, the harvest quite often he's like, "Hey, the harvest quite often he's like, "Hey, the harvest is plentiful, the workers are few. I'm is plentiful, the workers are few. I'm is plentiful, the workers are few. I'm sending you guys out into the fields. sending you guys out into the fields. sending you guys out into the fields. Go, you know, I'm going to I'm going to Go, you know, I'm going to I'm going to Go, you know, I'm going to I'm going to pray and I'm going to send you out." And pray and I'm going to send you out." And pray and I'm going to send you out." And there's work to do. There's good natural there's work to do. There's good natural there's work to do. There's good natural growth. The early church, I'm sure growth. The early church, I'm sure growth. The early church, I'm sure you'll know this, the average you know, you'll know this, the average you know, you'll know this, the average you know, growth year on year in the early church growth year on year in the early church growth year on year in the early church 7%. 7%. 7%. So, actually revival in the first few So, actually revival in the first few So, actually revival in the first few centuries of church was a slow, long centuries of church was a slow, long centuries of church was a slow, long obedience in the same direction in the obedience in the same direction in the obedience in the same direction in the presence of God. However, I think what presence of God. However, I think what presence of God. However, I think what what what what what is worth paying attention to what is worth paying attention to what is worth paying attention to is that is the marking out and making is that is the marking out and making is that is the marking out and making space in the culture of our hearts for space in the culture of our hearts for space in the culture of our hearts for the in-breaking of the kingdom of God in the in-breaking of the kingdom of God in the in-breaking of the kingdom of God in a fresh way. a fresh way. a fresh way. And that's an urgency that is never out And that's an urgency that is never out And that's an urgency that is never out of fashion. Every church leader should of fashion. Every church leader should of fashion. Every church leader should be making room for the reality of Jesus be making room for the reality of Jesus be making room for the reality of Jesus to break into their lives personally, to break into their lives personally, to break into their lives personally, corporately, and societally. So, to corporately, and societally. So, to corporately, and societally. So, to answer the question, I think um, revival answer the question, I think um, revival answer the question, I think um, revival and growth don't always go hand in hand.

and growth don't always go hand in hand. and growth don't always go hand in hand. They're not formulaic or causal. You can They're not formulaic or causal. You can They're not formulaic or causal. You can have revival with no growth, you can have revival with no growth, you can have revival with no growth, you can have growth without revival. But, the have growth without revival. But, the have growth without revival. But, the most powerful times in church history most powerful times in church history most powerful times in church history have been when there's been revival have been when there's been revival have been when there's been revival that's led to growth. that's led to growth. that's led to growth. And you know, I don't know how deep you And you know, I don't know how deep you And you know, I don't know how deep you want to go in this. I probably think want to go in this. I probably think want to go in this. I probably think there are there are stages if you look there are there are stages if you look there are there are stages if you look historically at this. Yeah, let's go historically at this. Yeah, let's go historically at this. Yeah, let's go there. there. there. Well, I I Well, I I Well, I I to to borrow my preacher's hat, I think to to borrow my preacher's hat, I think to to borrow my preacher's hat, I think there are probably there are probably there are probably four or five four or five four or five hours that lead to a journey. I think it hours that lead to a journey. I think it hours that lead to a journey. I think it starts with repentance. starts with repentance. starts with repentance. And that is an an admission that we And that is an an admission that we And that is an an admission that we haven't got it all right. And it's haven't got it all right. And it's haven't got it all right. And it's really hard to be led by God and to be really hard to be led by God and to be really hard to be led by God and to be used by the Holy Spirit if you're in used by the Holy Spirit if you're in used by the Holy Spirit if you're in charge. And so, repentance is saying, charge. And so, repentance is saying, charge. And so, repentance is saying, "Hey, hands up. I'm not God. I'm not in "Hey, hands up. I'm not God. I'm not in "Hey, hands up. I'm not God. I'm not in charge. You're in charge. I'm sorry I've charge. You're in charge. I'm sorry I've charge. You're in charge. I'm sorry I've led in the wrong way. I'm sorry I've led in the wrong way. I'm sorry I've led in the wrong way. I'm sorry I've made You know, that heart of repentance made You know, that heart of repentance made You know, that heart of repentance precedes every single move of God." If precedes every single move of God." If precedes every single move of God." If you look at the upper room in the day of you look at the upper room in the day of you look at the upper room in the day of Pentecost, they're on their faces crying Pentecost, they're on their faces crying Pentecost, they're on their faces crying out in that place where they're broken out in that place where they're broken out in that place where they're broken people. They just, you know, that they people. They just, you know, that they people. They just, you know, that they know Jesus is alive, but they're like, know Jesus is alive, but they're like, know Jesus is alive, but they're like, "I don't know how we're going to we're "I don't know how we're going to we're "I don't know how we're going to we're going to live now." And that that heart going to live now." And that that heart going to live now." And that that heart for repentance is that marks the church for repentance is that marks the church for repentance is that marks the church on its knees throughout human history.

on its knees throughout human history. on its knees throughout human history. Where there's repentance, it's magnetic Where there's repentance, it's magnetic Where there's repentance, it's magnetic to the heart of God. God is close to the to the heart of God. God is close to the to the heart of God. God is close to the lowly. He pursues those who are not lowly. He pursues those who are not lowly. He pursues those who are not proud, you know, it it's gives grace to proud, you know, it it's gives grace to proud, you know, it it's gives grace to the humble, right? So, repentance is the humble, right? So, repentance is the humble, right? So, repentance is step one. I think for us, big takeaway step one. I think for us, big takeaway step one. I think for us, big takeaway in my life has been to keep walking, in my life has been to keep walking, in my life has been to keep walking, learning to walk in repentance. You learning to walk in repentance. You learning to walk in repentance. You know, I repented when I became a know, I repented when I became a know, I repented when I became a Christian. And man, I had a lot to Christian. And man, I had a lot to Christian. And man, I had a lot to repent about. I wasn't raised a repent about. I wasn't raised a repent about. I wasn't raised a Christian. My life was a mess. Christian. My life was a mess. Christian. My life was a mess. And I repent when I, you know, messed And I repent when I, you know, messed And I repent when I, you know, messed up, but I've learned to think of up, but I've learned to think of up, but I've learned to think of repentance not as like a um repentance not as like a um repentance not as like a um a sort of, you know, something you do a sort of, you know, something you do a sort of, you know, something you do like when you get a rotten tooth and you like when you get a rotten tooth and you like when you get a rotten tooth and you go to you you race dentist because your, go to you you race dentist because your, go to you you race dentist because your, you know, your tooth is is in need of you know, your tooth is is in need of you know, your tooth is is in need of fixing. But rather like um brushing your fixing. But rather like um brushing your fixing. But rather like um brushing your teeth, saying, "I want to keep right teeth, saying, "I want to keep right teeth, saying, "I want to keep right with you. I want to do it as a daily with you. I want to do it as a daily with you. I want to do it as a daily discipline. I want to walk in discipline. I want to walk in discipline. I want to walk in repentance." So, repentance is first repentance." So, repentance is first repentance." So, repentance is first step. Then I think in God's time and in step. Then I think in God's time and in step. Then I think in God's time and in God's way, God's way, God's way, when and if he wants to, he he will when and if he wants to, he he will when and if he wants to, he he will bring revival. And that can be personal. bring revival. And that can be personal. bring revival. And that can be personal. And it can be corporate. And it can be And it can be corporate. And it can be And it can be corporate. And it can be societal. All of them are kind of valid.

societal. All of them are kind of valid. societal. All of them are kind of valid. And all of them are important. So, you And all of them are important. So, you And all of them are important. So, you know, on your knees behind your closed know, on your knees behind your closed know, on your knees behind your closed doors are where revivals are born. And doors are where revivals are born. And doors are where revivals are born. And so, um repentance leads to revival. And so, um repentance leads to revival. And so, um repentance leads to revival. And we can talk more about that, but, you we can talk more about that, but, you we can talk more about that, but, you know, as Bri, I think probably marks the know, as Bri, I think probably marks the know, as Bri, I think probably marks the the the the the latest sort of I guess the first of the latest sort of I guess the first of the latest sort of I guess the first of it of an outbreak of something new in it of an outbreak of something new in it of an outbreak of something new in the West that we can go on to talk a bit the West that we can go on to talk a bit the West that we can go on to talk a bit more about. But revival is happening all more about. But revival is happening all more about. But revival is happening all around the world the whole time. It's around the world the whole time. It's around the world the whole time. It's how God multiplies his church often. how God multiplies his church often. how God multiplies his church often. Revival then needs to lead to the third Revival then needs to lead to the third Revival then needs to lead to the third R, which is the renewal of the church. R, which is the renewal of the church. R, which is the renewal of the church. And that is where you talked about And that is where you talked about And that is where you talked about change and growth and, you know, revival change and growth and, you know, revival change and growth and, you know, revival and growth. Revival just on its own is and growth. Revival just on its own is and growth. Revival just on its own is fun, messy, you know, wonderful, fun, messy, you know, wonderful, fun, messy, you know, wonderful, but it's not the end game. The end game but it's not the end game. The end game but it's not the end game. The end game in church, the bride of Christ would be in church, the bride of Christ would be in church, the bride of Christ would be renewed um renewed um renewed um so that you God wants his church back. so that you God wants his church back. so that you God wants his church back. You know, the point of repentance and You know, the point of repentance and You know, the point of repentance and the presence of God filling his temple the presence of God filling his temple the presence of God filling his temple again is so that we might go out and do again is so that we might go out and do again is so that we might go out and do things differently. You know, revival things differently. You know, revival things differently. You know, revival needs to renewal. And what does that needs to renewal. And what does that needs to renewal. And what does that look like? Well, that looks like um look like? Well, that looks like um look like? Well, that looks like um you know, a hundred different things you know, a hundred different things you know, a hundred different things depending on the context, but it's just depending on the context, but it's just depending on the context, but it's just Jesus getting his church back. I could Jesus getting his church back. I could Jesus getting his church back. I could talk about our experience in a moment.

talk about our experience in a moment. talk about our experience in a moment. So, renewal long and painful and needs a So, renewal long and painful and needs a So, renewal long and painful and needs a lot of stewarding and takes time. Now, lot of stewarding and takes time. Now, lot of stewarding and takes time. Now, repentance leads to revival that leads repentance leads to revival that leads repentance leads to revival that leads to renewal. And and again, all of these to renewal. And and again, all of these to renewal. And and again, all of these things that are led by the spirit, things that are led by the spirit, things that are led by the spirit, they're not given, they're not they're not given, they're not they're not given, they're not formulaic. formulaic. formulaic. But eventually, what tends to then But eventually, what tends to then But eventually, what tends to then happen is that spills into reformation happen is that spills into reformation happen is that spills into reformation where society starts to be reformed. And where society starts to be reformed. And where society starts to be reformed. And I think we're on the edge of a I think we're on the edge of a I think we're on the edge of a reformation in the church in our reformation in the church in our reformation in the church in our generation. I think the world generation. I think the world generation. I think the world unprecedented shifts, you'll know this unprecedented shifts, you'll know this unprecedented shifts, you'll know this with AI and with AI and with AI and geopolitical you know, geopolitical geopolitical you know, geopolitical geopolitical you know, geopolitical chaos and the shifting of the order. But chaos and the shifting of the order. But chaos and the shifting of the order. But the same time, the church is going to the same time, the church is going to the same time, the church is going to have to go through an unprecedented have to go through an unprecedented have to go through an unprecedented shift. Now, look back through the shift. Now, look back through the shift. Now, look back through the history of the church. You when was the history of the church. You when was the history of the church. You when was the last great technological revolution last great technological revolution last great technological revolution preceding AI? Really, it was the press. preceding AI? Really, it was the press. preceding AI? Really, it was the press. At the same time, of course, it was At the same time, of course, it was At the same time, of course, it was accompanied by the last great accompanied by the last great accompanied by the last great ecclesiological shift in the church, the ecclesiological shift in the church, the ecclesiological shift in the church, the reformation. So, reformations reformation. So, reformations reformation. So, reformations and kind of transformation of society and kind of transformation of society and kind of transformation of society and technology tend to go hand in hand. and technology tend to go hand in hand. and technology tend to go hand in hand. Um it's a note, you know, there'll be a Um it's a note, you know, there'll be a Um it's a note, you know, there'll be a hundred academics who will shoot me down hundred academics who will shoot me down hundred academics who will shoot me down on that, but I think we're in a season on that, but I think we're in a season on that, but I think we're in a season now where God wants his church back. I now where God wants his church back. I now where God wants his church back. I think the message I've got from everyone think the message I've got from everyone think the message I've got from everyone I speak to right now is we tasted God do I speak to right now is we tasted God do I speak to right now is we tasted God do amazing things lately and now is a amazing things lately and now is a amazing things lately and now is a chance to prepare the way for the Lord.

chance to prepare the way for the Lord. chance to prepare the way for the Lord. Like, let's get on our faces, cry out to Like, let's get on our faces, cry out to Like, let's get on our faces, cry out to God um because he loves this generation. God um because he loves this generation. God um because he loves this generation. He's not given up on this generation and He's not given up on this generation and He's not given up on this generation and he wants his church back and it's never he wants his church back and it's never he wants his church back and it's never been more exciting to be alive. All been more exciting to be alive. All been more exciting to be alive. All right, well, let's get into the anatomy right, well, let's get into the anatomy right, well, let's get into the anatomy of a revival then. Because you didn't of a revival then. Because you didn't of a revival then. Because you didn't just read about Asbury like most of us just read about Asbury like most of us just read about Asbury like most of us did, you went. What what happened when did, you went. What what happened when did, you went. What what happened when you went there? you went there? you went there? Well, it Well, it Well, it I want to preface this by saying I'm not I want to preface this by saying I'm not I want to preface this by saying I'm not like a spiritual tourist or like a or like a spiritual tourist or like a or like a spiritual tourist or like a or Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um but I know Asbury cuz I've been there. I but I know Asbury cuz I've been there. I but I know Asbury cuz I've been there. I led worship there with an Alpha led worship there with an Alpha led worship there with an Alpha conference. I'm very involved in Alpha. conference. I'm very involved in Alpha. conference. I'm very involved in Alpha. Um and had been there out there years Um and had been there out there years Um and had been there out there years ago with David Thomas and J.D. Walt, ago with David Thomas and J.D. Walt, ago with David Thomas and J.D. Walt, become great friends, and people on the become great friends, and people on the become great friends, and people on the faculty there who I'd known. And so, faculty there who I'd known. And so, faculty there who I'd known. And so, Asbury is one of those communities Asbury is one of those communities Asbury is one of those communities that's a you know, to well-respected that's a you know, to well-respected that's a you know, to well-respected Methodist Seminary and Christian Methodist Seminary and Christian Methodist Seminary and Christian University, not prone to the excesses of University, not prone to the excesses of University, not prone to the excesses of emotionalism or And I a little bit like emotionalism or And I a little bit like emotionalism or And I a little bit like when I heard friends of mine were like when I heard friends of mine were like when I heard friends of mine were like saying, "Oh, the spirit of God has begun saying, "Oh, the spirit of God has begun saying, "Oh, the spirit of God has begun to move with a bunch of students in a in to move with a bunch of students in a in to move with a bunch of students in a in a prayer meeting in in a in a hall, you a prayer meeting in in a in a hall, you a prayer meeting in in a in a hall, you know, on campus." So, I was like, "Huh, know, on campus." So, I was like, "Huh, know, on campus." So, I was like, "Huh, interesting." Cuz I know these guys.

interesting." Cuz I know these guys. interesting." Cuz I know these guys. It's like white picket fences. It's It's like white picket fences. It's It's like white picket fences. It's Kentucky. Kentucky. Kentucky. Um all that. So, I kind of my my Um all that. So, I kind of my my Um all that. So, I kind of my my interest was was piqued. But also, I had interest was was piqued. But also, I had interest was was piqued. But also, I had um um um I'd woken up in the middle of the night I'd woken up in the middle of the night I'd woken up in the middle of the night a few nights before. And I don't a few nights before. And I don't a few nights before. And I don't normally do this, but I I got out of bed normally do this, but I I got out of bed normally do this, but I I got out of bed and I um gone and I started pray in my and I um gone and I started pray in my and I um gone and I started pray in my living room and crying out to God. Um living room and crying out to God. Um living room and crying out to God. Um with a randomly, I was listening to with a randomly, I was listening to with a randomly, I was listening to something on YouTube of like an American something on YouTube of like an American something on YouTube of like an American college band leading worship. It wasn't college band leading worship. It wasn't college band leading worship. It wasn't great. Like it was it wasn't like the great. Like it was it wasn't like the great. Like it was it wasn't like the musicality was amazing. But the I was musicality was amazing. But the I was musicality was amazing. But the I was like being really ministered to by the like being really ministered to by the like being really ministered to by the spirit of God. So, I put the two and two spirit of God. So, I put the two and two spirit of God. So, I put the two and two together. I was like, "Huh, I I felt together. I was like, "Huh, I I felt together. I was like, "Huh, I I felt like the spirit has been speaking to me like the spirit has been speaking to me like the spirit has been speaking to me a bit about the US and about campuses a bit about the US and about campuses a bit about the US and about campuses and what's going on." Anyhow, I am I and what's going on." Anyhow, I am I and what's going on." Anyhow, I am I checked in with a couple of friends who checked in with a couple of friends who checked in with a couple of friends who were out there. I said, "Hey guys, were out there. I said, "Hey guys, were out there. I said, "Hey guys, what's going on? I'm just intrigued." what's going on? I'm just intrigued." what's going on? I'm just intrigued." And I think as a church pastor, probably And I think as a church pastor, probably And I think as a church pastor, probably like many of your listeners, I'm a a like many of your listeners, I'm a a like many of your listeners, I'm a a student of the kingdom of God. I want to student of the kingdom of God. I want to student of the kingdom of God. I want to know what God is doing and how I can know what God is doing and how I can know what God is doing and how I can follow him. And so, anything that God is follow him. And so, anything that God is follow him. And so, anything that God is seemingly doing, I'm interested in. I seemingly doing, I'm interested in. I seemingly doing, I'm interested in. I want to learn because I want to follow want to learn because I want to follow want to learn because I want to follow Jesus. That's what I signed up to do. I Jesus. That's what I signed up to do. I Jesus. That's what I signed up to do. I didn't really sign up to lead a church.

didn't really sign up to lead a church. didn't really sign up to lead a church. I followed Jesus and I'm ended up here. I followed Jesus and I'm ended up here. I followed Jesus and I'm ended up here. And so, when I hear Jesus moving, you And so, when I hear Jesus moving, you And so, when I hear Jesus moving, you know, I'm like, I want to be in the know, I'm like, I want to be in the know, I'm like, I want to be in the room. I want to see what he's doing. room. I want to see what he's doing. room. I want to see what he's doing. Now, Now, Now, that said, I um I don't believe in sort that said, I um I don't believe in sort that said, I um I don't believe in sort of spiritual tourism. So, I didn't want of spiritual tourism. So, I didn't want of spiritual tourism. So, I didn't want to kind of just come and spectate. I had to kind of just come and spectate. I had to kind of just come and spectate. I had a friend who's on the faculty. He said, a friend who's on the faculty. He said, a friend who's on the faculty. He said, "Look, Al, actually, it would be helpful "Look, Al, actually, it would be helpful "Look, Al, actually, it would be helpful for you to come. We were planning on for you to come. We were planning on for you to come. We were planning on having a conversation anyhow around having a conversation anyhow around having a conversation anyhow around Renaissance and social come on to." So, Renaissance and social come on to." So, Renaissance and social come on to." So, I had an excuse to go and end up going I had an excuse to go and end up going I had an excuse to go and end up going last minute with one of our pastors from last minute with one of our pastors from last minute with one of our pastors from church. And nothing really prepared me church. And nothing really prepared me church. And nothing really prepared me for what I saw. Um for what I saw. Um for what I saw. Um Uh deeply underwhelming musically, um no Uh deeply underwhelming musically, um no Uh deeply underwhelming musically, um no celebrity Christians holding court, no celebrity Christians holding court, no celebrity Christians holding court, no um excessive charismatic manifestations um excessive charismatic manifestations um excessive charismatic manifestations or um or um or um you know, phenomena. Just a deep, deep you know, phenomena. Just a deep, deep you know, phenomena. Just a deep, deep sense of the presence of Jesus. And let sense of the presence of Jesus. And let sense of the presence of Jesus. And let me me me Mhm. give a bit of eyewitness to that. Mhm. give a bit of eyewitness to that. Mhm. give a bit of eyewitness to that. When I got to the parking lot at Asbury When I got to the parking lot at Asbury When I got to the parking lot at Asbury over the road, and we kind of snuck over the road, and we kind of snuck over the road, and we kind of snuck through the whole town was closed, and through the whole town was closed, and through the whole town was closed, and there were queues around the block. My there were queues around the block. My there were queues around the block. My friend who's on the faculty said, "Al, friend who's on the faculty said, "Al, friend who's on the faculty said, "Al, I'll sneak you in. You can be on the I'll sneak you in. You can be on the I'll sneak you in. You can be on the team pray for people." team pray for people." team pray for people." We got to the parking lot in the back, We got to the parking lot in the back, We got to the parking lot in the back, and I shut the door of the hire car, and I shut the door of the hire car, and I shut the door of the hire car, having flown from London overnight, having flown from London overnight, having flown from London overnight, still on the tarmac, still on the tarmac, still on the tarmac, you know, sort of jet-lagged, and not you know, sort of jet-lagged, and not you know, sort of jet-lagged, and not really kind of spiritually awake. And I really kind of spiritually awake. And I really kind of spiritually awake. And I shut the car door, and I'm 4 500 m away shut the car door, and I'm 4 500 m away shut the car door, and I'm 4 500 m away from the the huge auditorium where the from the the huge auditorium where the from the the huge auditorium where the meetings were happening. And in the car meetings were happening. And in the car meetings were happening. And in the car park, I would just stop. I was like, park, I would just stop. I was like, park, I would just stop. I was like, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, wow, you can feel there's something wow, you can feel there's something wow, you can feel there's something going on." Really. Wow. I've got And not going on." Really. Wow. I've got And not going on." Really. Wow. I've got And not a good feeling, not like I'm at a good feeling, not like I'm at a good feeling, not like I'm at Disneyland, let's go.

Disneyland, let's go. Disneyland, let's go. What I experienced in the car park in What I experienced in the car park in What I experienced in the car park in Wilmore, Asbury, was a sense of um the Wilmore, Asbury, was a sense of um the Wilmore, Asbury, was a sense of um the awe and fear of the Lord. Like, awe and fear of the Lord. Like, awe and fear of the Lord. Like, literally, I thought, literally, I thought, literally, I thought, "This is not a drill. "This is not a drill. "This is not a drill. I've got to get right with God." So, I've got to get right with God." So, I've got to get right with God." So, literally, there and then, I didn't go literally, there and then, I didn't go literally, there and then, I didn't go into the main meeting. I was like, "I've into the main meeting. I was like, "I've into the main meeting. I was like, "I've got to go and find a Bible, get on my got to go and find a Bible, get on my got to go and find a Bible, get on my face, and pray." Read Psalm 51 over and face, and pray." Read Psalm 51 over and face, and pray." Read Psalm 51 over and over. I was just like, "God, I You know, over. I was just like, "God, I You know, over. I was just like, "God, I You know, the the sense of God's holiness the the sense of God's holiness the the sense of God's holiness and God's um and God's um and God's um power and his love, not condemning but power and his love, not condemning but power and his love, not condemning but convicting me of my sin. convicting me of my sin. convicting me of my sin. So, let's break that down. Was that a So, let's break that down. Was that a So, let's break that down. Was that a physical physical physical like what what explain that feeling a like what what explain that feeling a like what what explain that feeling a little bit more. Was it like you walked little bit more. Was it like you walked little bit more. Was it like you walked into a force field? What what happened? into a force field? What what happened? into a force field? What what happened? Great question. Um you know that feeling Great question. Um you know that feeling Great question. Um you know that feeling when you you're a kid and your parents when you you're a kid and your parents when you you're a kid and your parents say, "Hey, we need to talk to you." You say, "Hey, we need to talk to you." You say, "Hey, we need to talk to you." You know something's up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. know something's up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. know something's up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everything shifts in your spirit. Everything shifts in your spirit. Everything shifts in your spirit. And it wasn't unkind. I was just like, And it wasn't unkind. I was just like, And it wasn't unkind. I was just like, "I'm aware of the holiness of God."

"I'm aware of the holiness of God." "I'm aware of the holiness of God." And you know in Psalm 24, "Who may And you know in Psalm 24, "Who may And you know in Psalm 24, "Who may ascend the hill of the Lord?" Those with ascend the hill of the Lord?" Those with ascend the hill of the Lord?" Those with clean hands and pure hearts. And you clean hands and pure hearts. And you clean hands and pure hearts. And you know it wasn't like I committed armed know it wasn't like I committed armed know it wasn't like I committed armed robbery, but my hands you know we all robbery, but my hands you know we all robbery, but my hands you know we all need clean hands and pure hearts. We need clean hands and pure hearts. We need clean hands and pure hearts. We need to keep going back to Jesus. Like need to keep going back to Jesus. Like need to keep going back to Jesus. Like um pastoring is tiring and you know my um pastoring is tiring and you know my um pastoring is tiring and you know my my flame had probably grown dim and it my flame had probably grown dim and it my flame had probably grown dim and it wasn't like I was wasn't like I was wasn't like I was um um um an armed robber, but I was like, "I need an armed robber, but I was like, "I need an armed robber, but I was like, "I need you, Jesus." Whereas you know so I found you, Jesus." Whereas you know so I found you, Jesus." Whereas you know so I found myself just repenting before I got near myself just repenting before I got near myself just repenting before I got near um the room. And then getting into the um the room. And then getting into the um the room. And then getting into the room I was like, "Oh, you know room I was like, "Oh, you know room I was like, "Oh, you know oh for a couple of hours I just sat oh for a couple of hours I just sat oh for a couple of hours I just sat there quietly in a chair. there quietly in a chair. there quietly in a chair. Couple of students got up, prayed, read Couple of students got up, prayed, read Couple of students got up, prayed, read scripture. Um people read the Bible. scripture. Um people read the Bible. scripture. Um people read the Bible. You've heard the account, but what it You've heard the account, but what it You've heard the account, but what it felt like um to me was sitting in a felt like um to me was sitting in a felt like um to me was sitting in a swimming pool where you know when you're swimming pool where you know when you're swimming pool where you know when you're a kid and you go in a swimming pool and a kid and you go in a swimming pool and a kid and you go in a swimming pool and there's a shallow end and you jump up there's a shallow end and you jump up there's a shallow end and you jump up and down. and down. and down. And gradually you get more confident. And gradually you get more confident. And gradually you get more confident. You go deeper and deeper until you can't You go deeper and deeper until you can't You go deeper and deeper until you can't touch anymore. And it's like but you touch anymore. And it's like but you touch anymore. And it's like but you know the bottom is there. You know um know the bottom is there. You know um know the bottom is there. You know um and you get back in the shallow end. And and you get back in the shallow end. And and you get back in the shallow end. And imagine that pool just carries on until imagine that pool just carries on until imagine that pool just carries on until it is very quickly over the Mariana it is very quickly over the Mariana it is very quickly over the Mariana Trench, the deepest point of the ocean.

Trench, the deepest point of the ocean. Trench, the deepest point of the ocean. Suddenly if you've ever swam over a deep Suddenly if you've ever swam over a deep Suddenly if you've ever swam over a deep water, it's a very strange feeling. water, it's a very strange feeling. water, it's a very strange feeling. You're over the deep ocean. Maybe over a You're over the deep ocean. Maybe over a You're over the deep ocean. Maybe over a I don't know if you go fishing, but if I don't know if you go fishing, but if I don't know if you go fishing, but if you're out sea and you're no longer in you're out sea and you're no longer in you're out sea and you're no longer in the shallows and the ocean is like a a the shallows and the ocean is like a a the shallows and the ocean is like a a thousand meters deep at that point, it thousand meters deep at that point, it thousand meters deep at that point, it feels very different. And it felt like feels very different. And it felt like feels very different. And it felt like suddenly oh there's no bottom to this suddenly oh there's no bottom to this suddenly oh there's no bottom to this pool. The presence of God is pool. The presence of God is pool. The presence of God is the veil has been torn back and I'm the veil has been torn back and I'm the veil has been torn back and I'm swimming in the deep now and I'm in the swimming in the deep now and I'm in the swimming in the deep now and I'm in the presence of Jesus and he's in the room presence of Jesus and he's in the room presence of Jesus and he's in the room and it's not a drill and my sin is being and it's not a drill and my sin is being and it's not a drill and my sin is being revealed but my heart is being loved. revealed but my heart is being loved. revealed but my heart is being loved. And so for three or four days I sat And so for three or four days I sat And so for three or four days I sat there just literally like I was sitting there just literally like I was sitting there just literally like I was sitting in the throne room of heaven and it was in the throne room of heaven and it was in the throne room of heaven and it was the most remarkable and that's where the most remarkable and that's where the most remarkable and that's where it's not about hype man. It's not it's not about hype man. It's not it's not about hype man. It's not something you can schedule. Jesus something you can schedule. Jesus something you can schedule. Jesus wants to go. I've sat in those kind of wants to go. I've sat in those kind of wants to go. I've sat in those kind of environments three or four times in my environments three or four times in my environments three or four times in my life had a privilege of seeing God life had a privilege of seeing God life had a privilege of seeing God moving in revival in three or four moving in revival in three or four moving in revival in three or four different places three or four different different places three or four different different places three or four different continents and every time I've seen God continents and every time I've seen God continents and every time I've seen God move in great power and presence it's move in great power and presence it's move in great power and presence it's felt utterly un- unboxable and wild and felt utterly un- unboxable and wild and felt utterly un- unboxable and wild and you can't control it and you can't tame you can't control it and you can't tame you can't control it and you can't tame him as Aslan in Lewis's him as Aslan in Lewis's him as Aslan in Lewis's stories he is not a tame lion. So stories he is not a tame lion. So stories he is not a tame lion. So long story short and there are plenty of long story short and there are plenty of long story short and there are plenty of accounts that and I and others have accounts that and I and others have accounts that and I and others have written lots about this. Um I get back written lots about this. Um I get back written lots about this. Um I get back on the plane four or five days later and on the plane four or five days later and on the plane four or five days later and yeah God bless the good people at yeah God bless the good people at yeah God bless the good people at American Airlines and my friend Stephen American Airlines and my friend Stephen American Airlines and my friend Stephen and I are at the back of the plane and and I are at the back of the plane and and I are at the back of the plane and there's two little seats by the toilets there's two little seats by the toilets there's two little seats by the toilets cuz we booked last minute.

cuz we booked last minute. cuz we booked last minute. And um I'm I wept all the way over the And um I'm I wept all the way over the And um I'm I wept all the way over the Atlantic and the stewardess thought Atlantic and the stewardess thought Atlantic and the stewardess thought Stephen and I had an argument and you Stephen and I had an argument and you Stephen and I had an argument and you know kept bringing me tissues and know kept bringing me tissues and know kept bringing me tissues and pretzels. You know um but I'm there and pretzels. You know um but I'm there and pretzels. You know um but I'm there and I'm weeping cuz I was like God I never I'm weeping cuz I was like God I never I'm weeping cuz I was like God I never want to go back. I don't want to go back want to go back. I don't want to go back want to go back. I don't want to go back to my church. There are you know it's I to my church. There are you know it's I to my church. There are you know it's I don't want to go to dry worship. I want don't want to go to dry worship. I want don't want to go to dry worship. I want to be in the presence of God you know to be in the presence of God you know to be in the presence of God you know like I never want to leave your like I never want to leave your like I never want to leave your presence. You know and I literally presence. You know and I literally presence. You know and I literally remember thinking remember thinking remember thinking if I go to be with you today if my plane if I go to be with you today if my plane if I go to be with you today if my plane never makes it home I'll be so delighted never makes it home I'll be so delighted never makes it home I'll be so delighted to sit in your presence. That's how to sit in your presence. That's how to sit in your presence. That's how sitting a moment with lingering in the sitting a moment with lingering in the sitting a moment with lingering in the presence of Jesus when he's in the room presence of Jesus when he's in the room presence of Jesus when he's in the room is like we've not seen anything. You is like we've not seen anything. You is like we've not seen anything. You know Paul says no eye has seen no ear know Paul says no eye has seen no ear know Paul says no eye has seen no ear has heard. has heard. has heard. Um so I get back to London um so on the Um so I get back to London um so on the Um so I get back to London um so on the plane the way over I'm weeping and plane the way over I'm weeping and plane the way over I'm weeping and crying out to God and the Lord said to crying out to God and the Lord said to crying out to God and the Lord said to me two things I'll never forget. me two things I'll never forget. me two things I'll never forget. Number one, Number one, Number one, um um um you've got 18 months to prepare for you've got 18 months to prepare for you've got 18 months to prepare for revival. revival. revival. Number So, I start thinking, "Gosh, Number So, I start thinking, "Gosh, Number So, I start thinking, "Gosh, that's terrifying." I'm thinking about that's terrifying." I'm thinking about that's terrifying." I'm thinking about my church. Like, if that happened in our my church. Like, if that happened in our my church. Like, if that happened in our church, I mean, we don't have We don't church, I mean, we don't have We don't church, I mean, we don't have We don't have enough toilets. We don't have have enough toilets. We don't have have enough toilets. We don't have enough enough enough people people to pray or people people to pray or people people to pray or um um um So, I I sat with that question. I So, I I sat with that question. I So, I I sat with that question. I started making a list. I was like, "What started making a list. I was like, "What started making a list. I was like, "What would we do differently if we had 18 would we do differently if we had 18 would we do differently if we had 18 months to prepare for revival?"

months to prepare for revival?" months to prepare for revival?" Like, how would we pastor differently? Like, how would we pastor differently? Like, how would we pastor differently? What would our structures and systems What would our structures and systems What would our structures and systems be? How would we lead people to Christ? be? How would we lead people to Christ? be? How would we lead people to Christ? How do we do Sundays? What would we do How do we do Sundays? What would we do How do we do Sundays? What would we do behind the scenes? I started making a behind the scenes? I started making a behind the scenes? I started making a list. I was going to do this, this. You list. I was going to do this, this. You list. I was going to do this, this. You know, I saw they had a cajon rather than know, I saw they had a cajon rather than know, I saw they had a cajon rather than a drum kit at the outpouring. Oh, I'm a drum kit at the outpouring. Oh, I'm a drum kit at the outpouring. Oh, I'm going to have a cajon on Sunday rather going to have a cajon on Sunday rather going to have a cajon on Sunday rather than a drum kit. than a drum kit. than a drum kit. And the second thing I felt the Lord say And the second thing I felt the Lord say And the second thing I felt the Lord say was um simply this. was um simply this. was um simply this. And it was a sort of chuckle. And it And it was a sort of chuckle. And it And it was a sort of chuckle. And it felt the Lord say, "I'll change nothing felt the Lord say, "I'll change nothing felt the Lord say, "I'll change nothing but your heart. Change nothing but your but your heart. Change nothing but your but your heart. Change nothing but your heart." So, I sort of put a line through heart." So, I sort of put a line through heart." So, I sort of put a line through the list of plans I'd made and was like, the list of plans I'd made and was like, the list of plans I'd made and was like, "Okay, that's what you're calling us to "Okay, that's what you're calling us to "Okay, that's what you're calling us to do." And then anyone listening this, the do." And then anyone listening this, the do." And then anyone listening this, the message in the season for us is to message in the season for us is to message in the season for us is to change nothing but our hearts. change nothing but our hearts. change nothing but our hearts. You know, how we run services, how we You know, how we run services, how we You know, how we run services, how we run church, how we lead in our run church, how we lead in our run church, how we lead in our businesses, how we pray, how we love our businesses, how we pray, how we love our businesses, how we pray, how we love our families, all of it has to begin with families, all of it has to begin with families, all of it has to begin with the revival has to start in your heart the revival has to start in your heart the revival has to start in your heart behind closed doors on your knees and behind closed doors on your knees and behind closed doors on your knees and repentance saying, "Jesus, I'm a sinful repentance saying, "Jesus, I'm a sinful repentance saying, "Jesus, I'm a sinful person." person." person." Like Isaiah, "Here am I, unclean. Like Isaiah, "Here am I, unclean. Like Isaiah, "Here am I, unclean. Send me. Fill me. Meet with me." So, Send me. Fill me. Meet with me." So, Send me. Fill me. Meet with me." So, go back to London and story for another go back to London and story for another go back to London and story for another question another day, but we began to question another day, but we began to question another day, but we began to see God do the most extraordinary see God do the most extraordinary see God do the most extraordinary things. And straight away, um things. And straight away, um things. And straight away, um you know, overnight I arrived back on a you know, overnight I arrived back on a you know, overnight I arrived back on a Saturday and I arrived at church on Saturday and I arrived at church on Saturday and I arrived at church on Sunday. Before I got up to speak, the Sunday. Before I got up to speak, the Sunday. Before I got up to speak, the presence of God had filled our church presence of God had filled our church presence of God had filled our church building. People were weeping. People building. People were weeping. People building. People were weeping. People were flooding the front repenting. You were flooding the front repenting. You were flooding the front repenting. You know, I had no one had done an altar know, I had no one had done an altar know, I had no one had done an altar call. More people came to faith in those call. More people came to faith in those call. More people came to faith in those first 2 weeks than had come in the first 2 weeks than had come in the first 2 weeks than had come in the previous 7 years of church planting. Um previous 7 years of church planting. Um previous 7 years of church planting. Um and honestly,

and honestly, and honestly, it's nothing but the heart. Like the it's nothing but the heart. Like the it's nothing but the heart. Like the heart of the leader is the is the nexus heart of the leader is the is the nexus heart of the leader is the is the nexus of the kingdom of God in a community. of the kingdom of God in a community. of the kingdom of God in a community. Like you get your heart right, the Like you get your heart right, the Like you get your heart right, the kingdom of God will flow. kingdom of God will flow. kingdom of God will flow. Um and that's not to be sort of Um and that's not to be sort of Um and that's not to be sort of works-based. You can't earn anything, works-based. You can't earn anything, works-based. You can't earn anything, but but but when Jesus isn't thrown on our hearts, when Jesus isn't thrown on our hearts, when Jesus isn't thrown on our hearts, everything changes. We know that. Um everything changes. We know that. Um everything changes. We know that. Um and as leaders, that's what God wants and as leaders, that's what God wants and as leaders, that's what God wants for us is is our heart. for us is is our heart. for us is is our heart. So, I've got a couple of questions. One So, I've got a couple of questions. One So, I've got a couple of questions. One of them's awkward, but I have to ask. of them's awkward, but I have to ask. of them's awkward, but I have to ask. Yeah. Okay, Al. Uh one of the questions Yeah. Okay, Al. Uh one of the questions Yeah. Okay, Al. Uh one of the questions is So, really you didn't do anything is So, really you didn't do anything is So, really you didn't do anything differently. You didn't advertise, you differently. You didn't advertise, you differently. You didn't advertise, you didn't quote change the programming. You didn't quote change the programming. You didn't quote change the programming. You the plane lands Yeah. and people just the plane lands Yeah. and people just the plane lands Yeah. and people just start showing up and doing things that start showing up and doing things that start showing up and doing things that are not quote in the script or in uh are not quote in the script or in uh are not quote in the script or in uh Planning Center. Is that right? Planning Center. Is that right? Planning Center. Is that right? Yeah, so we we had a few things happen Yeah, so we we had a few things happen Yeah, so we we had a few things happen that were instrumental for us in London. that were instrumental for us in London. that were instrumental for us in London. Please tell. Yeah. Um Please tell. Yeah. Um Please tell. Yeah. Um One, One, One, the um the um the um I think personal change is the most I think personal change is the most I think personal change is the most powerful home in you seek of God at work powerful home in you seek of God at work powerful home in you seek of God at work in your life. Mhm. I actually went God in your life. Mhm. I actually went God in your life. Mhm. I actually went God moves in your life and I stood up that moves in your life and I stood up that moves in your life and I stood up that first Sunday and I just burst into first Sunday and I just burst into first Sunday and I just burst into tears. I was like, "Guys, I'm really tears. I was like, "Guys, I'm really tears. I was like, "Guys, I'm really sorry. I've failed you." I repented sorry. I've failed you." I repented sorry. I've failed you." I repented publicly. And that that is not um publicly. And that that is not um publicly. And that that is not um you know, that is not without cost, but you know, that is not without cost, but you know, that is not without cost, but it's also um it gives you a permission.

it's also um it gives you a permission. it's also um it gives you a permission. So, yeah, and how I led it was leading So, yeah, and how I led it was leading So, yeah, and how I led it was leading differently. The heart means you're you differently. The heart means you're you differently. The heart means you're you change your heart, you act differently, change your heart, you act differently, change your heart, you act differently, right? So, definitely I brought a right? So, definitely I brought a right? So, definitely I brought a different leadership style from that day different leadership style from that day different leadership style from that day to our what we've been doing. to our what we've been doing. to our what we've been doing. But also like But also like But also like the I'd say characterized by by the I'd say characterized by by the I'd say characterized by by repentance. Second thing characterized repentance. Second thing characterized repentance. Second thing characterized by unity. So, I'll give you an example. by unity. So, I'll give you an example. by unity. So, I'll give you an example. You won't remember me saying about this, You won't remember me saying about this, You won't remember me saying about this, but I've got a great friend, Pete but I've got a great friend, Pete but I've got a great friend, Pete Hughes, who leads a church KXC and you Hughes, who leads a church KXC and you Hughes, who leads a church KXC and you know, if you haven't had Pete on this know, if you haven't had Pete on this know, if you haven't had Pete on this podcast, then you need to. He's an podcast, then you need to. He's an podcast, then you need to. He's an amazing thinker and amazing thinker and amazing thinker and Awesome. writer. Um but Pete and I lead Awesome. writer. Um but Pete and I lead Awesome. writer. Um but Pete and I lead churches a mile apart in London. We're churches a mile apart in London. We're churches a mile apart in London. We're probably the probably the probably the two in this part of London, we're two in this part of London, we're two in this part of London, we're probably the two youngest large probably the two youngest large probably the two youngest large churches, new plants, both plants in the churches, new plants, both plants in the churches, new plants, both plants in the last 10 years. You know, most of our last 10 years. You know, most of our last 10 years. You know, most of our congregation been that kind of 20s and congregation been that kind of 20s and congregation been that kind of 20s and and 30s, young young creative churches. and 30s, young young creative churches. and 30s, young young creative churches. And we would be friends, but to be And we would be friends, but to be And we would be friends, but to be honest with you, we've not really worked honest with you, we've not really worked honest with you, we've not really worked together. We run slightly different together. We run slightly different together. We run slightly different circles. We're a little bit looking over circles. We're a little bit looking over circles. We're a little bit looking over each other's shoulder. So, if Pete is each other's shoulder. So, if Pete is each other's shoulder. So, if Pete is doing a series on Leviticus, I'll think, doing a series on Leviticus, I'll think, doing a series on Leviticus, I'll think, "Oh, that's a good idea." And if you "Oh, that's a good idea." And if you "Oh, that's a good idea." And if you know, if I've if I've if I've got know, if I've if I've if I've got know, if I've if I've if I've got something, people be like, "Oh, you something, people be like, "Oh, you something, people be like, "Oh, you know." So, we we we cordial and know." So, we we we cordial and know." So, we we we cordial and friendly, but we weren't really in in friendly, but we weren't really in in friendly, but we weren't really in in deep unity. You know, we were kind of deep unity. You know, we were kind of deep unity. You know, we were kind of cheering each other on from, you know, cheering each other on from, you know, cheering each other on from, you know, different circles.

different circles. different circles. From a distance. From a distance. From a distance. Uh Pete was also at the outpouring, and Uh Pete was also at the outpouring, and Uh Pete was also at the outpouring, and I found Pete at the front of the altar, I found Pete at the front of the altar, I found Pete at the front of the altar, and and I was with him, and we were just and and I was with him, and we were just and and I was with him, and we were just on our knees. And we said, "Well, we on our knees. And we said, "Well, we on our knees. And we said, "Well, we might as well pray for revival in might as well pray for revival in might as well pray for revival in London. We're here in in an outpouring. London. We're here in in an outpouring. London. We're here in in an outpouring. We need this in London." So, we get down We need this in London." So, we get down We need this in London." So, we get down on our knees, and we we we sort of on our knees, and we we we sort of on our knees, and we we we sort of covenantally start praying for each covenantally start praying for each covenantally start praying for each other. And Pete starts praying, and he other. And Pete starts praying, and he other. And Pete starts praying, and he prays, "Lord, it breaks my heart to pray prays, "Lord, it breaks my heart to pray prays, "Lord, it breaks my heart to pray this, but send revival to London, but this, but send revival to London, but this, but send revival to London, but don't start with my church. Start with don't start with my church. Start with don't start with my church. Start with Al's church." Al's church." Al's church." And that moment, something broke, cuz And that moment, something broke, cuz And that moment, something broke, cuz that's a big prayer. that's a big prayer. that's a big prayer. He means He means He means That that takes a lot Wow. That's a huge That that takes a lot Wow. That's a huge That that takes a lot Wow. That's a huge prayer. If you've led a church for 20 prayer. If you've led a church for 20 prayer. If you've led a church for 20 minutes, that's a big prayer. Okay, so minutes, that's a big prayer. Okay, so minutes, that's a big prayer. Okay, so Pete is genuinely praying for revival. Pete is genuinely praying for revival. Pete is genuinely praying for revival. And of course, I'm there going, And of course, I'm there going, And of course, I'm there going, "And Lord, send revival to Pete's "And Lord, send revival to Pete's "And Lord, send revival to Pete's church, too." That's right. You're not church, too." That's right. You're not church, too." That's right. You're not going to say amen. Yeah. I'll take it. going to say amen. Yeah. I'll take it. going to say amen. Yeah. I'll take it. And Pete There's something in both of us And Pete There's something in both of us And Pete There's something in both of us broke. And the the idol of competition, broke. And the the idol of competition, broke. And the the idol of competition, the idol of comparison broke. the idol of comparison broke. the idol of comparison broke. We go back to London, and within We go back to London, and within We go back to London, and within three or four days, three or four days, three or four days, we started to talk to our teams that we started to talk to our teams that we started to talk to our teams that we're seeing. We started to talk to our we're seeing. We started to talk to our we're seeing. We started to talk to our churches. We started to see the the wind churches. We started to see the the wind churches. We started to see the the wind of the spirit moving among us. And of the spirit moving among us. And of the spirit moving among us. And there's no secret formula to this. It's there's no secret formula to this. It's there's no secret formula to this. It's like we were eyewitnesses to Hey, guys, like we were eyewitnesses to Hey, guys, like we were eyewitnesses to Hey, guys, here's the headline. Go low, humble here's the headline. Go low, humble here's the headline. Go low, humble yourself, God comes, ascend the hill of yourself, God comes, ascend the hill of yourself, God comes, ascend the hill of the Lord, clean hands, pure heart, you the Lord, clean hands, pure heart, you the Lord, clean hands, pure heart, you know, call on the Lord. He's on the know, call on the Lord. He's on the know, call on the Lord. He's on the move. And people are just like, okay, move. And people are just like, okay, move. And people are just like, okay, let's do it. Let's go. We go in, you let's do it. Let's go. We go in, you let's do it. Let's go. We go in, you know, and people are up for it.

know, and people are up for it. know, and people are up for it. Pete and I talked three or four days Pete and I talked three or four days Pete and I talked three or four days later and we were like, hey, should we later and we were like, hey, should we later and we were like, hey, should we just get our churches together and pray just get our churches together and pray just get our churches together and pray for revival? Never done this before. for revival? Never done this before. for revival? Never done this before. Like, you know, wouldn't wouldn't Like, you know, wouldn't wouldn't Like, you know, wouldn't wouldn't happen. Be awkward. Be a sort of happen. Be awkward. Be a sort of happen. Be awkward. Be a sort of contrived campaign. Sometimes churches contrived campaign. Sometimes churches contrived campaign. Sometimes churches get together as part of a campaign. We get together as part of a campaign. We get together as part of a campaign. We were like, hey, we're going to So, we were like, hey, we're going to So, we were like, hey, we're going to So, we called our churches together for like a called our churches together for like a called our churches together for like a solemn assembly. CJ and Tim, we were solemn assembly. CJ and Tim, we were solemn assembly. CJ and Tim, we were like, we're calling a solemn assembly of like, we're calling a solemn assembly of like, we're calling a solemn assembly of our churches. And another friend called our churches. And another friend called our churches. And another friend called Wally, who has another church, similar Wally, who has another church, similar Wally, who has another church, similar church, we were like, let's get these church, we were like, let's get these church, we were like, let's get these churches together. And the three of us churches together. And the three of us churches together. And the three of us stood up at that first prayer gathering, stood up at that first prayer gathering, stood up at that first prayer gathering, what was called now called a joint what was called now called a joint what was called now called a joint prayer gathering. And we expected like prayer gathering. And we expected like prayer gathering. And we expected like 100 people to come. You know, if we put 100 people to come. You know, if we put 100 people to come. You know, if we put all our prayer meetings together on a all our prayer meetings together on a all our prayer meetings together on a weeknight, it'd be like 100 people. weeknight, it'd be like 100 people. weeknight, it'd be like 100 people. The doors at 7:00 and there's a queue of The doors at 7:00 and there's a queue of The doors at 7:00 and there's a queue of young people around the block. Word had young people around the block. Word had young people around the block. Word had got out that these three church leaders got out that these three church leaders got out that these three church leaders had stood in the furnace of the presence had stood in the furnace of the presence had stood in the furnace of the presence of God. And the fruit of it was of God. And the fruit of it was of God. And the fruit of it was repentance, reconciliation, and a repentance, reconciliation, and a repentance, reconciliation, and a commitment to humble unity among their commitment to humble unity among their commitment to humble unity among their churches. We literally We literally churches. We literally We literally churches. We literally We literally called our churches saying, called our churches saying, called our churches saying, uh when we said that we repented uh when we said that we repented uh when we said that we repented publicly on Sundays, we were like, I'm publicly on Sundays, we were like, I'm publicly on Sundays, we were like, I'm sorry we've been in competition. I went sorry we've been in competition. I went sorry we've been in competition. I went to Pete's church and I said this in to Pete's church and I said this in to Pete's church and I said this in front of his whole church. Pete stood up front of his whole church. Pete stood up front of his whole church. Pete stood up in our building and said it in front of in our building and said it in front of in our building and said it in front of our whole community. Like, we our whole community. Like, we our whole community. Like, we Something broke in that in over us in Something broke in that in over us in Something broke in that in over us in that part of the city. And um the fruit that part of the city. And um the fruit that part of the city. And um the fruit of it has been remarkable. We've been of it has been remarkable. We've been of it has been remarkable. We've been going 18 months now. More people are going 18 months now. More people are going 18 months now. More people are coming to faith in our church than ever coming to faith in our church than ever coming to faith in our church than ever before. We love each other deeply. Like, before. We love each other deeply. Like, before. We love each other deeply. Like, if the plumbing goes wrong at my church if the plumbing goes wrong at my church if the plumbing goes wrong at my church or at Pete's church, we're all one team.

or at Pete's church, we're all one team. or at Pete's church, we're all one team. Like, you you you you you you you Like, you you you you you you you Like, you you you you you you you the I you couldn't put a skin of paper the I you couldn't put a skin of paper the I you couldn't put a skin of paper between our churches. We are in complete between our churches. We are in complete between our churches. We are in complete We're working in complete unity. To the We're working in complete unity. To the We're working in complete unity. To the point of which where I I sort of think point of which where I I sort of think point of which where I I sort of think of myself as a campus of his church and of myself as a campus of his church and of myself as a campus of his church and vice versa. And that stuff is vice versa. And that stuff is vice versa. And that stuff is supernatural. You will know this. It supernatural. You will know this. It supernatural. You will know this. It doesn't happen naturally. Um doesn't happen naturally. Um doesn't happen naturally. Um Jesus, when he gets to your heart, his Jesus, when he gets to your heart, his Jesus, when he gets to your heart, his prayer is that we love one another, that prayer is that we love one another, that prayer is that we love one another, that we work together in unity. And, you we work together in unity. And, you we work together in unity. And, you know, we know this Psalm 133. If you know, we know this Psalm 133. If you know, we know this Psalm 133. If you take nothing away from this episode, take nothing away from this episode, take nothing away from this episode, Psalm 133, where brothers and sisters Psalm 133, where brothers and sisters Psalm 133, where brothers and sisters dwell in unity, God commands blessing. dwell in unity, God commands blessing. dwell in unity, God commands blessing. Work backwards from the equation as a Work backwards from the equation as a Work backwards from the equation as a leader in your business, in your church, leader in your business, in your church, leader in your business, in your church, in your ministry. If you want blessing, in your ministry. If you want blessing, in your ministry. If you want blessing, the the smile, the favor of God on your the the smile, the favor of God on your the the smile, the favor of God on your life, work back up the equation, unity. life, work back up the equation, unity. life, work back up the equation, unity. You have to promote the needs and the You have to promote the needs and the You have to promote the needs and the the wishes and the desires of others the wishes and the desires of others the wishes and the desires of others above your own. Love your neighbor, love above your own. Love your neighbor, love above your own. Love your neighbor, love your pastor around the corner as your pastor around the corner as your pastor around the corner as yourself. And then God will do whatever yourself. And then God will do whatever yourself. And then God will do whatever he wants to do. And we may not see the he wants to do. And we may not see the he wants to do. And we may not see the fruit of it this side of heaven, but fruit of it this side of heaven, but fruit of it this side of heaven, but we'll live better. we'll live better. we'll live better. Mhm. That Thank you for sharing that.

Mhm. That Thank you for sharing that. Mhm. That Thank you for sharing that. That's so helpful, Al. And I guess that That's so helpful, Al. And I guess that That's so helpful, Al. And I guess that leads me to a version of my awkward leads me to a version of my awkward leads me to a version of my awkward question, which I think I have to ask. question, which I think I have to ask. question, which I think I have to ask. So, So, So, you were convicted, you land in Asbury, you were convicted, you land in Asbury, you were convicted, you land in Asbury, Pete's convicted, others are convicted, Pete's convicted, others are convicted, Pete's convicted, others are convicted, and this new era, so to speak, opens up. and this new era, so to speak, opens up. and this new era, so to speak, opens up. But, you know, you didn't start ministry But, you know, you didn't start ministry But, you know, you didn't start ministry 18 months ago. You've been at this for 18 months ago. You've been at this for 18 months ago. You've been at this for years, right? How How long have you been years, right? How How long have you been years, right? How How long have you been in ministry? in ministry? in ministry? Well, I came to faith Well, I came to faith Well, I came to faith Oh, as a pastor. I came to faith at age Oh, as a pastor. I came to faith at age Oh, as a pastor. I came to faith at age 18, and um got love leading worship 18, and um got love leading worship 18, and um got love leading worship later that year. So, small group. Um Ah. later that year. So, small group. Um Ah. later that year. So, small group. Um Ah. I was on the staff of a church by my I was on the staff of a church by my I was on the staff of a church by my early 20s, and I'm in my 40s now. So, early 20s, and I'm in my 40s now. So, early 20s, and I'm in my 40s now. So, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 5 years. Planted Saint um 7, 8 years 5 years. Planted Saint um 7, 8 years 5 years. Planted Saint um 7, 8 years ago, and was in in the leadership team ago, and was in in the leadership team ago, and was in in the leadership team of HTB and Alpha for 10 years before of HTB and Alpha for 10 years before of HTB and Alpha for 10 years before that. So, yeah, you're right. Um there that. So, yeah, you're right. Um there that. So, yeah, you're right. Um there is a lot of preparation that happens for is a lot of preparation that happens for is a lot of preparation that happens for things like this. So, I guess, you know, things like this. So, I guess, you know, things like this. So, I guess, you know, this is because I'm thinking about the this is because I'm thinking about the this is because I'm thinking about the people listening who haven't experienced people listening who haven't experienced people listening who haven't experienced what you experienced, and I would put what you experienced, and I would put what you experienced, and I would put myself in that category. I mean, when myself in that category. I mean, when myself in that category. I mean, when you look back on pick it up from when you look back on pick it up from when you look back on pick it up from when you planted Saint Church, do you look you planted Saint Church, do you look you planted Saint Church, do you look back on that and go, back on that and go, back on that and go, I wasn't even a Christian? Like, you I wasn't even a Christian? Like, you I wasn't even a Christian? Like, you know, like, when you when you come I'm know, like, when you when you come I'm know, like, when you when you come I'm I'm I'm just asking that question I'm I'm just asking that question I'm I'm just asking that question because it seems I'm sure there are because it seems I'm sure there are because it seems I'm sure there are people who have genuinely repented and people who have genuinely repented and people who have genuinely repented and and who are in that posture but haven't and who are in that posture but haven't and who are in that posture but haven't seen revival. I imagine there are people seen revival. I imagine there are people seen revival. I imagine there are people who sincerely love God, but they haven't who sincerely love God, but they haven't who sincerely love God, but they haven't had the experience that you have. I'm

had the experience that you have. I'm had the experience that you have. I'm just wondering cuz that's and let me let just wondering cuz that's and let me let just wondering cuz that's and let me let me let me nuance this even a little me let me nuance this even a little me let me nuance this even a little more, Al. That's a question I ask myself more, Al. That's a question I ask myself more, Al. That's a question I ask myself on a regular basis. Like I love God, I on a regular basis. Like I love God, I on a regular basis. Like I love God, I read the Bible, I pray, try to serve the read the Bible, I pray, try to serve the read the Bible, I pray, try to serve the church, but it's like church, but it's like church, but it's like am I getting this right? It's a really am I getting this right? It's a really am I getting this right? It's a really big question for me personally. big question for me personally. big question for me personally. So again, let me let me So again, let me let me So again, let me let me preface your question a little bit. I preface your question a little bit. I preface your question a little bit. I wouldn't say what we're seeing in London wouldn't say what we're seeing in London wouldn't say what we're seeing in London is revival. is revival. is revival. Um I think I think what we saw in Asbury Um I think I think what we saw in Asbury Um I think I think what we saw in Asbury was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to equip and renew the church, particularly equip and renew the church, particularly equip and renew the church, particularly younger leaders. And I think it was an younger leaders. And I think it was an younger leaders. And I think it was an operating system download. operating system download. operating system download. So you wouldn't call it a revival? So you wouldn't call it a revival? So you wouldn't call it a revival? I think what we're seeing in London is I think what we're seeing in London is I think what we're seeing in London is not yet revival. I think we're not yet revival. I think we're not yet revival. I think we're pre-revival. pre-revival. pre-revival. Seeing in-breakings of God doing Seeing in-breakings of God doing Seeing in-breakings of God doing wonderful things, but I'm I've yet to wonderful things, but I'm I've yet to wonderful things, but I'm I've yet to see when when a million people have come see when when a million people have come see when when a million people have come to faith in London, then we'll talk to faith in London, then we'll talk to faith in London, then we'll talk about revival. So let just just a caveat about revival. So let just just a caveat about revival. So let just just a caveat that. Um in terms of that. Um in terms of that. Um in terms of like like like the danger with these things is that you the danger with these things is that you the danger with these things is that you create a a sort of priesthood of the of create a a sort of priesthood of the of create a a sort of priesthood of the of the revivalist. the revivalist. the revivalist. The initiated. Yeah. Yeah. Who was in The initiated. Yeah. Yeah. Who was in The initiated. Yeah. Yeah. Who was in the room. That that is not at all the room. That that is not at all the room. That that is not at all um um um that is not at all been my experience. I that is not at all been my experience. I that is not at all been my experience. I think for for me what what I've learned think for for me what what I've learned think for for me what what I've learned is that God is um is that God is um is that God is um drawing us all the time. You know, when drawing us all the time. You know, when drawing us all the time. You know, when you become a Christian, you become a Christian, you become a Christian, you you don't stop you you don't stop you you don't stop needing Jesus. You know, the more I walk needing Jesus. You know, the more I walk needing Jesus. You know, the more I walk with Jesus, the more I need him, the with Jesus, the more I need him, the with Jesus, the more I need him, the more aware of my own sin.

more aware of my own sin. more aware of my own sin. Mhm. I think where we got to and I think Mhm. I think where we got to and I think Mhm. I think where we got to and I think I wouldn't want to negate either and I wouldn't want to negate either and I wouldn't want to negate either and have a sort of two-successionist view of have a sort of two-successionist view of have a sort of two-successionist view of of the move of the Spirit. God does move of the move of the Spirit. God does move of the move of the Spirit. God does move sovereignly in space and time as he sovereignly in space and time as he sovereignly in space and time as he wants to and he'll move in human culture wants to and he'll move in human culture wants to and he'll move in human culture when he wants to. The question is are we when he wants to. The question is are we when he wants to. The question is are we ready and available when he does move? ready and available when he does move? ready and available when he does move? And what what can we do to prepare the And what what can we do to prepare the And what what can we do to prepare the way for the Lord? Now, the the ministry way for the Lord? Now, the the ministry way for the Lord? Now, the the ministry of John the Baptist is really of John the Baptist is really of John the Baptist is really interesting in this regard and I think interesting in this regard and I think interesting in this regard and I think the more we try and lead in this moment, the more we try and lead in this moment, the more we try and lead in this moment, we need to learn from the the sort of we need to learn from the the sort of we need to learn from the the sort of John the Baptist view of John the Baptist view of John the Baptist view of you know, he must increase, I must you know, he must increase, I must you know, he must increase, I must decrease, the understanding of humility. decrease, the understanding of humility. decrease, the understanding of humility. I think what we're learning is that God I think what we're learning is that God I think what we're learning is that God is going to reach a generation. God is going to reach a generation. God is going to reach a generation. God never leaves himself without a witness. never leaves himself without a witness. never leaves himself without a witness. The question is will we be available to The question is will we be available to The question is will we be available to what he wants to do? And there in each what he wants to do? And there in each what he wants to do? And there in each generation you have to learn to speak a generation you have to learn to speak a generation you have to learn to speak a different language and position your different language and position your different language and position your heart slightly differently. Um I I would heart slightly differently. Um I I would heart slightly differently. Um I I would say that um say that um say that um we've we've come for a season of the we've we've come for a season of the we've we've come for a season of the church where uh many of the structures church where uh many of the structures church where uh many of the structures have been buffeted by the pandemic, by have been buffeted by the pandemic, by have been buffeted by the pandemic, by the sort of successes and failures, if the sort of successes and failures, if the sort of successes and failures, if we're honest, of you know, we're honest, of you know, we're honest, of you know, big churches or famous pastors or all big churches or famous pastors or all big churches or famous pastors or all that stuff. And I think we're in a that stuff. And I think we're in a that stuff. And I think we're in a fundamental culture shift moment where fundamental culture shift moment where fundamental culture shift moment where God is reforming his church and it has God is reforming his church and it has God is reforming his church and it has to start with him breaking in and around to start with him breaking in and around to start with him breaking in and around the young particularly. So, what does the young particularly. So, what does the young particularly. So, what does that characterize? If you look at John that characterize? If you look at John that characterize? If you look at John the Baptist Mark 1, you see a kind of the Baptist Mark 1, you see a kind of the Baptist Mark 1, you see a kind of three-part type move that John does.

three-part type move that John does. three-part type move that John does. Number one, he calls people to Number one, he calls people to Number one, he calls people to consecration. You repent is the message consecration. You repent is the message consecration. You repent is the message of John the Baptist. You know, repent of John the Baptist. You know, repent of John the Baptist. You know, repent and receive forgiveness for your sins. and receive forgiveness for your sins. and receive forgiveness for your sins. So, there's a calling on the church in So, there's a calling on the church in So, there's a calling on the church in this moment to learn to come back and this moment to learn to come back and this moment to learn to come back and walk in repentance and that's really walk in repentance and that's really walk in repentance and that's really important. Second thing we see is that important. Second thing we see is that important. Second thing we see is that the church learns to contend. Like John the church learns to contend. Like John the church learns to contend. Like John calls people to contend for the one who calls people to contend for the one who calls people to contend for the one who is to come. And that looks like in is to come. And that looks like in is to come. And that looks like in John's ministry, I'm not worthy, there's John's ministry, I'm not worthy, there's John's ministry, I'm not worthy, there's one coming after me who's going to be one coming after me who's going to be one coming after me who's going to be the one. And John points to Jesus. the one. And John points to Jesus. the one. And John points to Jesus. We we need to we need church leaders who We we need to we need church leaders who We we need to we need church leaders who learn to contend not for their agenda, learn to contend not for their agenda, learn to contend not for their agenda, their ego, and their strategy, but to their ego, and their strategy, but to their ego, and their strategy, but to make space for Jesus to have the reins make space for Jesus to have the reins make space for Jesus to have the reins of their future and their governance in of their future and their governance in of their future and their governance in their church. their church. their church. And then the third thing we have we see And then the third thing we have we see And then the third thing we have we see is that God calls us to communion with is that God calls us to communion with is that God calls us to communion with himself. So, John leads to Jesus himself. So, John leads to Jesus himself. So, John leads to Jesus arriving and then the spirit comes, the arriving and then the spirit comes, the arriving and then the spirit comes, the Father says, "This is my son whom I Father says, "This is my son whom I Father says, "This is my son whom I love, with him I'm well pleased." We see love, with him I'm well pleased." We see love, with him I'm well pleased." We see that the Trinity for the first time. And that the Trinity for the first time. And that the Trinity for the first time. And I think that's significant. In this next I think that's significant. In this next I think that's significant. In this next generation, we're going to need leaders generation, we're going to need leaders generation, we're going to need leaders who are really, really committed to who are really, really committed to who are really, really committed to walking in holiness and humility. We're walking in holiness and humility. We're walking in holiness and humility. We're going to need leaders who are really going to need leaders who are really going to need leaders who are really committed to plurality and who are not committed to plurality and who are not committed to plurality and who are not about their ego, who are wanting to work about their ego, who are wanting to work about their ego, who are wanting to work with others, and who learn to lead with others, and who learn to lead with others, and who learn to lead differently. So, so much of what we've differently. So, so much of what we've differently. So, so much of what we've been learning over the last 18 months been learning over the last 18 months been learning over the last 18 months has been preparing to lead differently.

has been preparing to lead differently. has been preparing to lead differently. Plurality, not sort of superstar leader. Plurality, not sort of superstar leader. Plurality, not sort of superstar leader. Um humility in how we work together, Um humility in how we work together, Um humility in how we work together, listening well, working as a team, that listening well, working as a team, that listening well, working as a team, that kind of stuff, good stuff. And then the kind of stuff, good stuff. And then the kind of stuff, good stuff. And then the third thing is like really being third thing is like really being third thing is like really being committed to pursuing communion with God committed to pursuing communion with God committed to pursuing communion with God and with each other. Now, none of this and with each other. Now, none of this and with each other. Now, none of this is sexy or um exciting. It's hard, it's is sexy or um exciting. It's hard, it's is sexy or um exciting. It's hard, it's painful. Repentance and reconciliation painful. Repentance and reconciliation painful. Repentance and reconciliation is really hard work and it's ongoing. is really hard work and it's ongoing. is really hard work and it's ongoing. Working together is hard work. So, we Working together is hard work. So, we Working together is hard work. So, we feel like we're in a feel like we're in a feel like we're in a a preparing the way moment in London a preparing the way moment in London a preparing the way moment in London where we're learning as leaders to go where we're learning as leaders to go where we're learning as leaders to go low, get out the way, rewire and rethink low, get out the way, rewire and rethink low, get out the way, rewire and rethink some things we did that were probably some things we did that were probably some things we did that were probably wrong, and to get in such a position wrong, and to get in such a position wrong, and to get in such a position that we build a high you know, as I that we build a high you know, as I that we build a high you know, as I talked about highway of holiness. Like, talked about highway of holiness. Like, talked about highway of holiness. Like, what would it look like for you to light what would it look like for you to light what would it look like for you to light up, you know, up, you know, up, you know, at the end of Die Hard when Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard when Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard when Bruce Willis runs out on the on the runway with a runs out on the on the runway with a runs out on the on the runway with a Zippo lighter and lights up the runway. Zippo lighter and lights up the runway. Zippo lighter and lights up the runway. What would it look like for us to light What would it look like for us to light What would it look like for us to light up the night in our churches such a way up the night in our churches such a way up the night in our churches such a way that were the plane of God's presence to that were the plane of God's presence to that were the plane of God's presence to land among us. Will you be ready for it?

land among us. Will you be ready for it? land among us. Will you be ready for it? And I think that's that's my heart for And I think that's that's my heart for And I think that's that's my heart for our leaders in our generation is not our leaders in our generation is not our leaders in our generation is not that we pursue revival, pointless, but that we pursue revival, pointless, but that we pursue revival, pointless, but we prepare the way for Jesus, definitely we prepare the way for Jesus, definitely we prepare the way for Jesus, definitely worth doing. So, that when we leave the worth doing. So, that when we leave the worth doing. So, that when we leave the earth and we leave the earth in the next earth and we leave the earth in the next earth and we leave the earth in the next generation, we've actually made the generation, we've actually made the generation, we've actually made the church more more Jesus-centered, more church more more Jesus-centered, more church more more Jesus-centered, more available to to God's plan, and that available to to God's plan, and that available to to God's plan, and that we've seen people come to know Jesus. we've seen people come to know Jesus. we've seen people come to know Jesus. So, I don't know if that's a long answer So, I don't know if that's a long answer So, I don't know if that's a long answer to a deep question. The question was to a deep question. The question was to a deep question. The question was much better than my answer, put it that much better than my answer, put it that much better than my answer, put it that way. way. way. No, that's that's a really helpful No, that's that's a really helpful No, that's that's a really helpful reframing, Al, and it makes sense of reframing, Al, and it makes sense of reframing, Al, and it makes sense of what I'm seeing what I'm seeing what I'm seeing in the sense that this perhaps isn't in the sense that this perhaps isn't in the sense that this perhaps isn't revival, it's pre-revival, and it's revival, it's pre-revival, and it's revival, it's pre-revival, and it's preparing hearts of the leaders to be in preparing hearts of the leaders to be in preparing hearts of the leaders to be in position because you're right, you know, position because you're right, you know, position because you're right, you know, Asbury didn't last forever, they Asbury didn't last forever, they Asbury didn't last forever, they declared an end to it. You see these declared an end to it. You see these declared an end to it. You see these college baptisms if you follow JP college baptisms if you follow JP college baptisms if you follow JP Pokluda or Jenny Allen that are Pokluda or Jenny Allen that are Pokluda or Jenny Allen that are happening, and again, it's not happening, and again, it's not happening, and again, it's not it's not an end in itself, but for you it's not an end in itself, but for you it's not an end in itself, but for you to frame it as pre-revival. But you said to frame it as pre-revival. But you said to frame it as pre-revival. But you said something that that caught my well, a something that that caught my well, a something that that caught my well, a lot of things that caught my interest, lot of things that caught my interest, lot of things that caught my interest, but this one in particular I want to go but this one in particular I want to go but this one in particular I want to go a little bit deeper on. You said and it a little bit deeper on. You said and it a little bit deeper on. You said and it was very quick, it was an aside almost, was very quick, it was an aside almost, was very quick, it was an aside almost, we're rethinking things that we might we're rethinking things that we might we're rethinking things that we might have gotten wrong. When you look back, have gotten wrong. When you look back, have gotten wrong. When you look back, what are some of the things that you're what are some of the things that you're what are some of the things that you're rethinking now that perhaps weren't rethinking now that perhaps weren't rethinking now that perhaps weren't quite right?

Well, it's a long list. All right, let's Well, it's a long list. All right, let's go. go. go. I think I'll start with myself, how I I think I'll start with myself, how I I think I'll start with myself, how I led um led um led um was much more was much more was much more my energy would go into the public, not my energy would go into the public, not my energy would go into the public, not the private. the private. the private. And my preparation would go into making And my preparation would go into making And my preparation would go into making myself look good in public rather than myself look good in public rather than myself look good in public rather than in private. We talk about preparation, in private. We talk about preparation, in private. We talk about preparation, and we all love preparation, and and we all love preparation, and and we all love preparation, and preachers do this the whole time, but preachers do this the whole time, but preachers do this the whole time, but I I didn't pray as much as I do now for I I didn't pray as much as I do now for I I didn't pray as much as I do now for what I do in public. And and that's a what I do in public. And and that's a what I do in public. And and that's a that's a challenge. Like here I am that's a challenge. Like here I am that's a challenge. Like here I am talking to you we you were just been talking to you we you were just been talking to you we you were just been exchanging travel plans the day I'm exchanging travel plans the day I'm exchanging travel plans the day I'm about to get on a plane, you've been off about to get on a plane, you've been off about to get on a plane, you've been off a plane. I'm going to go and speak a plane. I'm going to go and speak a plane. I'm going to go and speak somewhere else in you know, around the somewhere else in you know, around the somewhere else in you know, around the world, and I'm I'm I'm aware of like now world, and I'm I'm I'm aware of like now world, and I'm I'm I'm aware of like now I haven't looked at my talks. The number I haven't looked at my talks. The number I haven't looked at my talks. The number one thing I'm thinking about is praying, one thing I'm thinking about is praying, one thing I'm thinking about is praying, God, would you really work in the room God, would you really work in the room God, would you really work in the room before I get up to speak? So I think before I get up to speak? So I think before I get up to speak? So I think there's been a change in my heart around there's been a change in my heart around there's been a change in my heart around what it looks like to lead in the next what it looks like to lead in the next what it looks like to lead in the next season that's not dependent on gifting season that's not dependent on gifting season that's not dependent on gifting or skill or technique. None of those or skill or technique. None of those or skill or technique. None of those things are bad, like good to learn your things are bad, like good to learn your things are bad, like good to learn your preaching techniques, good to research, preaching techniques, good to research, preaching techniques, good to research, just find your voice, all that stuff, just find your voice, all that stuff, just find your voice, all that stuff, but I'm aware that like but I'm aware that like but I'm aware that like if the Lord doesn't build the house, if the Lord doesn't build the house, if the Lord doesn't build the house, then we're just working in vain. So, I then we're just working in vain. So, I then we're just working in vain. So, I think for me in my heart and my life, um think for me in my heart and my life, um think for me in my heart and my life, um I've I've I've learned that what happens I've I've I've learned that what happens I've I've I've learned that what happens in secret and my heart and my heart in secret and my heart and my heart in secret and my heart and my heart hunger for Jesus has to outweigh hunger for Jesus has to outweigh hunger for Jesus has to outweigh whatever ending I do in public.

whatever ending I do in public. whatever ending I do in public. Then, in terms of how I lead with Then, in terms of how I lead with Then, in terms of how I lead with others, um and I could go I could go others, um and I could go I could go others, um and I could go I could go more into the heart of the leader like more into the heart of the leader like more into the heart of the leader like reconciliation. I've spent so many reconciliation. I've spent so many reconciliation. I've spent so many awkward conversations the last 2 years, awkward conversations the last 2 years, awkward conversations the last 2 years, 18 months with people I've hurt going 18 months with people I've hurt going 18 months with people I've hurt going back decades saying, "I'm so sorry. I back decades saying, "I'm so sorry. I back decades saying, "I'm so sorry. I think this has come to my conscience. think this has come to my conscience. think this has come to my conscience. I wanted to raise this cuz I think I may I wanted to raise this cuz I think I may I wanted to raise this cuz I think I may have upset you in a conversation we had have upset you in a conversation we had have upset you in a conversation we had 20 years ago." And that's that stuff has 20 years ago." And that's that stuff has 20 years ago." And that's that stuff has been um been um been um really painful, but really good to do. really painful, but really good to do. really painful, but really good to do. So, the life of the leader So, the life of the leader So, the life of the leader is important, the heart of the leader is is important, the heart of the leader is is important, the heart of the leader is important, and I think we're learning to important, and I think we're learning to important, and I think we're learning to lead differently. Um lead differently. Um lead differently. Um I certainly am. Secondly, how I I lead I certainly am. Secondly, how I I lead I certainly am. Secondly, how I I lead my team, I'm I'm trying to balance my team, I'm I'm trying to balance my team, I'm I'm trying to balance um as a sort of or hey, we got work to um as a sort of or hey, we got work to um as a sort of or hey, we got work to do with hey, we've do with hey, we've do with hey, we've You know, it's interesting when Jesus You know, it's interesting when Jesus You know, it's interesting when Jesus sends out sends out sends out the the workers into the world harvest the the workers into the world harvest the the workers into the world harvest fields, if you look at the sending out, fields, if you look at the sending out, fields, if you look at the sending out, you know, the Jesus the harvest fields you know, the Jesus the harvest fields you know, the Jesus the harvest fields for the workers if you for the workers if you for the workers if you I never really seen this First thing I never really seen this First thing I never really seen this First thing Jesus does is is ask the Lord of the Jesus does is is ask the Lord of the Jesus does is is ask the Lord of the harvest. He calls people to prayer. harvest. He calls people to prayer. harvest. He calls people to prayer. Then, he calls them to himself. He calls Then, he calls them to himself. He calls Then, he calls them to himself. He calls them to 12 to himself. So, actually the them to 12 to himself. So, actually the them to 12 to himself. So, actually the first thing we're called to do in first thing we're called to do in first thing we're called to do in ministry is not to go do, raise the ministry is not to go do, raise the ministry is not to go do, raise the dead, heal the sick, you know, dead, heal the sick, you know, dead, heal the sick, you know, cast out demons. That stuff is going to cast out demons. That stuff is going to cast out demons. That stuff is going to happen, but the first thing is to turn happen, but the first thing is to turn happen, but the first thing is to turn to the Lord of the Father, come to to the Lord of the Father, come to to the Lord of the Father, come to Jesus, to meet and encounter God. So, I Jesus, to meet and encounter God. So, I Jesus, to meet and encounter God. So, I think learning to lead a team who have a think learning to lead a team who have a think learning to lead a team who have a prioritization of the presence of God in prioritization of the presence of God in prioritization of the presence of God in the midst of the program, and putting the midst of the program, and putting the midst of the program, and putting that above the program is really key.

that above the program is really key. that above the program is really key. So, I'll give you one example. You know, So, I'll give you one example. You know, So, I'll give you one example. You know, if you've talked about Asbury, you've if you've talked about Asbury, you've if you've talked about Asbury, you've heard about the consecration room. You heard about the consecration room. You heard about the consecration room. You know, we basically ditched the green know, we basically ditched the green know, we basically ditched the green room and we we instituted the room and we we instituted the room and we we instituted the consecration room, and that has been consecration room, and that has been consecration room, and that has been transformative. You know, we put our transformative. You know, we put our transformative. You know, we put our teams in a room before we do any teams in a room before we do any teams in a room before we do any planning center, we get on our faces, we planning center, we get on our faces, we planning center, we get on our faces, we pray for each other, we make sure we're pray for each other, we make sure we're pray for each other, we make sure we're right relationally. No one gets to go up right relationally. No one gets to go up right relationally. No one gets to go up on a platform if they've got on a platform if they've got on a platform if they've got beef with somebody else. Or if they're beef with somebody else. Or if they're beef with somebody else. Or if they're if they're you know, if they're just not if they're you know, if they're just not if they're you know, if they're just not right, we need to get we need to get right, we need to get we need to get right, we need to get we need to get right. And that's up to them. No one's right. And that's up to them. No one's right. And that's up to them. No one's going to force them. It's not the sort going to force them. It's not the sort going to force them. It's not the sort of thought police or draconian, you of thought police or draconian, you of thought police or draconian, you know, the Spanish Inquisition. But like know, the Spanish Inquisition. But like know, the Spanish Inquisition. But like we just want to give opportunities to we just want to give opportunities to we just want to give opportunities to people to get right with Jesus. people to get right with Jesus. people to get right with Jesus. Someone says to me, "Well, you know, Someone says to me, "Well, you know, Someone says to me, "Well, you know, couldn't you just couldn't you just do couldn't you just couldn't you just do couldn't you just couldn't you just do that on your morning quiet time?" Of that on your morning quiet time?" Of that on your morning quiet time?" Of course you can, but we're a team. You course you can, but we're a team. You course you can, but we're a team. You know, it seems to me there's a dynamic know, it seems to me there's a dynamic know, it seems to me there's a dynamic where as a team we consecrate ourselves where as a team we consecrate ourselves where as a team we consecrate ourselves to the Lord. And so we've just seen that to the Lord. And so we've just seen that to the Lord. And so we've just seen that when we get in our faces in the hidden when we get in our faces in the hidden when we get in our faces in the hidden place and we lead out of a place of place and we lead out of a place of place and we lead out of a place of behind the scenes in the prayer rooms in behind the scenes in the prayer rooms in behind the scenes in the prayer rooms in the prayer closets, calling on the Lord the prayer closets, calling on the Lord the prayer closets, calling on the Lord before we go out to public, what we see before we go out to public, what we see before we go out to public, what we see happen in public is 10 times more happen in public is 10 times more happen in public is 10 times more effective. effective. effective. You know, demons are getting cast out You know, demons are getting cast out You know, demons are getting cast out without us even us even laying hands on.

without us even us even laying hands on. without us even us even laying hands on. People are coming to People are walking People are coming to People are walking People are coming to People are walking off the street. I mean, every Sunday off the street. I mean, every Sunday off the street. I mean, every Sunday we're seeing that an an acceleration of we're seeing that an an acceleration of we're seeing that an an acceleration of the ordinary work of God that is you the ordinary work of God that is you the ordinary work of God that is you can't explain. And that's because Jesus can't explain. And that's because Jesus can't explain. And that's because Jesus has got more bandwidth in his people. has got more bandwidth in his people. has got more bandwidth in his people. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of Does that make sense? It makes a lot of Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense and it leads to another question. sense and it leads to another question. sense and it leads to another question. What has revival personally cost you? I What has revival personally cost you? I What has revival personally cost you? I imagine there's a cost. Anytime there's imagine there's a cost. Anytime there's imagine there's a cost. Anytime there's a change, anytime there's there's a a change, anytime there's there's a a change, anytime there's there's a shift, there's a cost. shift, there's a cost. shift, there's a cost. So I'll I'll tell you what um So I'll I'll tell you what um So I'll I'll tell you what um we we've started praying with these we we've started praying with these we we've started praying with these three churches and three churches and three churches and um when we started praying we're like I um when we started praying we're like I um when we started praying we're like I you know, the hundreds the hundreds turn you know, the hundreds the hundreds turn you know, the hundreds the hundreds turn up. The young people are around the up. The young people are around the up. The young people are around the block, you know, thousand plus now um block, you know, thousand plus now um block, you know, thousand plus now um and then we're like somebody said we and then we're like somebody said we and then we're like somebody said we should go all night. We should pray all should go all night. We should pray all should go all night. We should pray all night. Let's let's pray, you know. So we night. Let's let's pray, you know. So we night. Let's let's pray, you know. So we did, we prayed all night and I remember did, we prayed all night and I remember did, we prayed all night and I remember just after a few like um few of these just after a few like um few of these just after a few like um few of these gatherings, we do them quite regularly. gatherings, we do them quite regularly. gatherings, we do them quite regularly. I was just really tired. I remember I was just really tired. I remember I was just really tired. I remember ringing a mentor, David Thomas, who was ringing a mentor, David Thomas, who was ringing a mentor, David Thomas, who was involved in in the outpouring Asbury and involved in in the outpouring Asbury and involved in in the outpouring Asbury and said, "David, you know, help me here.

said, "David, you know, help me here. said, "David, you know, help me here. I'm stewarding something that feels God I'm stewarding something that feels God I'm stewarding something that feels God is on the move and you know, we we feel is on the move and you know, we we feel is on the move and you know, we we feel like we're in this stage where we're like we're in this stage where we're like we're in this stage where we're positioned the church for stewarding an positioned the church for stewarding an positioned the church for stewarding an outpouring and we want to live in such a outpouring and we want to live in such a outpouring and we want to live in such a way that all this stuff and he he was way that all this stuff and he he was way that all this stuff and he he was really happy. He said, "Oh, you know, really happy. He said, "Oh, you know, really happy. He said, "Oh, you know, when God begins to move, you're going to when God begins to move, you're going to when God begins to move, you're going to get less sleep. get less sleep. get less sleep. You know, You know, You know, you'll be more tired." And actually that you'll be more tired." And actually that you'll be more tired." And actually that that was really helpful cuz I have had that was really helpful cuz I have had that was really helpful cuz I have had less sleep in the last 18 months. So, I less sleep in the last 18 months. So, I less sleep in the last 18 months. So, I know a lot of you could Evan Roberts in know a lot of you could Evan Roberts in know a lot of you could Evan Roberts in the Welsh Revival, a lot of revivals the Welsh Revival, a lot of revivals the Welsh Revival, a lot of revivals burn out not because God's love runs burn out not because God's love runs burn out not because God's love runs out. out. out. It's because his you know, It's because his you know, It's because his you know, the leaders just mess it up. We we we the leaders just mess it up. We we we the leaders just mess it up. We we we get tired and we let we burn out. So, I get tired and we let we burn out. So, I get tired and we let we burn out. So, I think being aware of the cost of think being aware of the cost of think being aware of the cost of spiritually we've never experienced spiritually we've never experienced spiritually we've never experienced level of attack um that we do now. I level of attack um that we do now. I level of attack um that we do now. I mean, it's it's been un- I've had people mean, it's it's been un- I've had people mean, it's it's been un- I've had people come out to me in the street, you know, come out to me in the street, you know, come out to me in the street, you know, just like you know, like crazy spiritual just like you know, like crazy spiritual just like you know, like crazy spiritual encounters happening. You know, I'm encounters happening. You know, I'm encounters happening. You know, I'm walking through my neighborhood and walking through my neighborhood and walking through my neighborhood and people coming up to me out of nowhere people coming up to me out of nowhere people coming up to me out of nowhere like literally I'm suddenly talking to like literally I'm suddenly talking to like literally I'm suddenly talking to demoniac in the street who's saying, demoniac in the street who's saying, demoniac in the street who's saying, "Al, I know what you're trying to do."

"Al, I know what you're trying to do." "Al, I know what you're trying to do." And literally I'm like, "Oh, I'm And literally I'm like, "Oh, I'm And literally I'm like, "Oh, I'm speaking something here that's not of speaking something here that's not of speaking something here that's not of God and not of man." God and not of man." God and not of man." Like literally you're you're walking to Like literally you're you're walking to Like literally you're you're walking to a coffee shop and somebody comes up to a coffee shop and somebody comes up to a coffee shop and somebody comes up to you. Can you can you play that out a you. Can you can you play that out a you. Can you can you play that out a little bit more? That's interesting. little bit more? That's interesting. little bit more? That's interesting. Um Um Um yes, I'm I'm walking to the church yes, I'm I'm walking to the church yes, I'm I'm walking to the church building where we're going to do this building where we're going to do this building where we're going to do this prayer gathering and this guy comes up prayer gathering and this guy comes up prayer gathering and this guy comes up to me literally in my face like he's to me literally in my face like he's to me literally in my face like he's about to kill me. He looks quite scary about to kill me. He looks quite scary about to kill me. He looks quite scary and he says, "Um we know who you are. We and he says, "Um we know who you are. We and he says, "Um we know who you are. We know why you're here. We want you to know why you're here. We want you to know why you're here. We want you to know that we've been on this land for a know that we've been on this land for a know that we've been on this land for a thousand years and you don't have thousand years and you don't have thousand years and you don't have authority here." I'm like, "This is like authority here." I'm like, "This is like authority here." I'm like, "This is like okay." okay." okay." What? What? What? I'm not dealing with mental health I'm not dealing with mental health I'm not dealing with mental health crisis here. This is like um the guy crisis here. This is like um the guy crisis here. This is like um the guy doesn't I mean, I'm not dressed like a doesn't I mean, I'm not dressed like a doesn't I mean, I'm not dressed like a vicar, but I'm actually the vicar which vicar, but I'm actually the vicar which vicar, but I'm actually the vicar which in the Anglican terms means I own the in the Anglican terms means I own the in the Anglican terms means I own the land. I'm the steward of Yeah, you dress land. I'm the steward of Yeah, you dress land. I'm the steward of Yeah, you dress like you're dressing today. So, he like you're dressing today. So, he like you're dressing today. So, he theoretically doesn't even have any idea theoretically doesn't even have any idea theoretically doesn't even have any idea who you are. No giveaway. Um but who you are. No giveaway. Um but who you are. No giveaway. Um but spiritually spiritually spiritually there's something going on there. So, I there's something going on there. So, I there's something going on there. So, I had this conversation with the guy um had this conversation with the guy um had this conversation with the guy um just to say, "Well, actually no, I'm just to say, "Well, actually no, I'm just to say, "Well, actually no, I'm terribly sorry, this isn't your land. terribly sorry, this isn't your land. terribly sorry, this isn't your land. This is the land that belongs to Jesus." This is the land that belongs to Jesus." This is the land that belongs to Jesus." And but those kind of encounters have And but those kind of encounters have And but those kind of encounters have started to happen and um that sounds started to happen and um that sounds started to happen and um that sounds very scary and supernatural but they're very scary and supernatural but they're very scary and supernatural but they're not. Most of the time we're just seeing not. Most of the time we're just seeing not. Most of the time we're just seeing um when when the light when the light um when when the light when the light um when when the light when the light flares up, when the light gets turned flares up, when the light gets turned flares up, when the light gets turned up, the shadow increases. When the sun up, the shadow increases. When the sun up, the shadow increases. When the sun comes out, you notice the shadow. And comes out, you notice the shadow. And comes out, you notice the shadow. And that's just a sign that God is at work.

that's just a sign that God is at work. that's just a sign that God is at work. Um and that's something that you don't Um and that's something that you don't Um and that's something that you don't take into account when you think, "Oh, take into account when you think, "Oh, take into account when you think, "Oh, let's pray for an awakening our let's pray for an awakening our let's pray for an awakening our generation." generation." generation." Well, what comes with that is personal Well, what comes with that is personal Well, what comes with that is personal cost, attacks spiritually, but also a cost, attacks spiritually, but also a cost, attacks spiritually, but also a heightened sense of the battle. So, heightened sense of the battle. So, heightened sense of the battle. So, we've had to learn how to do the battle. we've had to learn how to do the battle. we've had to learn how to do the battle. We learned how to spiritual warfare. We We learned how to spiritual warfare. We We learned how to spiritual warfare. We had to learn how to contend and in had to learn how to contend and in had to learn how to contend and in prayer. And that's prayer. And that's prayer. And that's just, you know, it's woken us up, you just, you know, it's woken us up, you just, you know, it's woken us up, you know, it's woken us up from from our know, it's woken us up from from our know, it's woken us up from from our slumber a little bit. Um slumber a little bit. Um slumber a little bit. Um but hey, it's what we've seen in the but hey, it's what we've seen in the but hey, it's what we've seen in the book of Acts. It's what we hear about in book of Acts. It's what we hear about in book of Acts. It's what we hear about in the early church. So, we shouldn't be the early church. So, we shouldn't be the early church. So, we shouldn't be surprised. surprised. surprised. Um so, yeah, I mean, the cost has Um so, yeah, I mean, the cost has Um so, yeah, I mean, the cost has definitely been increased, but the definitely been increased, but the definitely been increased, but the blessing has increased. So, I don't feel blessing has increased. So, I don't feel blessing has increased. So, I don't feel Yeah, I don't want to ever go back to um Yeah, I don't want to ever go back to um Yeah, I don't want to ever go back to um settling for a low water mark in my settling for a low water mark in my settling for a low water mark in my relationship with God and in my relationship with God and in my relationship with God and in my relationship with my my expectancy relationship with my my expectancy relationship with my my expectancy around what I want God to do. Now, around what I want God to do. Now, around what I want God to do. Now, there's no first or second-class there's no first or second-class there's no first or second-class Christians. The question is on the watch Christians. The question is on the watch Christians. The question is on the watch and the time and the hours God gives and the time and the hours God gives and the time and the hours God gives you, how big is your faith and you, how big is your faith and you, how big is your faith and expectancy for what you what you want expectancy for what you what you want expectancy for what you what you want God to do in your moment? And I do not God to do in your moment? And I do not God to do in your moment? And I do not want any of us listening to get to want any of us listening to get to want any of us listening to get to heaven and look back with regrets. I heaven and look back with regrets. I heaven and look back with regrets. I want us to get to heaven and look back want us to get to heaven and look back want us to get to heaven and look back saying, "Jesus, saying, "Jesus, saying, "Jesus, you didn't answer a whole bunch of you didn't answer a whole bunch of you didn't answer a whole bunch of prayers that we prayed, but we prayed prayers that we prayed, but we prayed prayers that we prayed, but we prayed for an awakening in Canada. We prayed for an awakening in Canada. We prayed for an awakening in Canada. We prayed for young people, our kids and our for young people, our kids and our for young people, our kids and our grandkids to come home. We prayed that grandkids to come home. We prayed that grandkids to come home. We prayed that you turn the tide in the popular you turn the tide in the popular you turn the tide in the popular discussion around Jesus. That that we we discussion around Jesus. That that we we discussion around Jesus. That that we we go through the gates of heaven go through the gates of heaven go through the gates of heaven tired, bleeding, bruised, exhausted, but tired, bleeding, bruised, exhausted, but tired, bleeding, bruised, exhausted, but with the victor's crown on our heads with the victor's crown on our heads with the victor's crown on our heads because we poured everything out in

because we poured everything out in because we poured everything out in faith before God. It's up to God what he faith before God. It's up to God what he faith before God. It's up to God what he does with that. It won't always look does with that. It won't always look does with that. It won't always look glamorous this side of heaven. But what glamorous this side of heaven. But what glamorous this side of heaven. But what we're looking for is the well-done good we're looking for is the well-done good we're looking for is the well-done good and faithful servant on the other side, and faithful servant on the other side, and faithful servant on the other side, right? right? right? This is so helpful. So, I want you to go This is so helpful. So, I want you to go This is so helpful. So, I want you to go back to back to back to how you started at Saint, the church, how you started at Saint, the church, how you started at Saint, the church, when you planted it. when you planted it. when you planted it. Yeah. Uh Yeah. Uh Yeah. Uh I mean, there was so much I was going to I mean, there was so much I was going to I mean, there was so much I was going to get to. get to. get to. I think we'll have to park that for I think we'll have to park that for I think we'll have to park that for another day. another day. another day. But like your church is beautiful. I But like your church is beautiful. I But like your church is beautiful. I haven't been there personally. I will haven't been there personally. I will haven't been there personally. I will next time I'm in London, come by. Uh but next time I'm in London, come by. Uh but next time I'm in London, come by. Uh but it got written up in an architectural it got written up in an architectural it got written up in an architectural digest. I mean, I read that article in digest. I mean, I read that article in digest. I mean, I read that article in prep for today. Wow. prep for today. Wow. prep for today. Wow. It's It's magnificent. It's beautiful. It's It's magnificent. It's beautiful. It's It's magnificent. It's beautiful. It's It's white. It's And you took an It's It's white. It's And you took an It's It's white. It's And you took an old old old I'm going to call it Gothic style cuz I'm going to call it Gothic style cuz I'm going to call it Gothic style cuz I'm not from England. I don't know what I'm not from England. I don't know what I'm not from England. I don't know what it is. But imagine uh you know, just it is. But imagine uh you know, just it is. But imagine uh you know, just this old cathedral-type Anglican church this old cathedral-type Anglican church this old cathedral-type Anglican church that you've just transformed into that you've just transformed into that you've just transformed into something new. something new. something new. You obviously had a team. You had a You obviously had a team. You had a You obviously had a team. You had a staff. When you look back on that, staff. When you look back on that, staff. When you look back on that, there's some things you would do there's some things you would do there's some things you would do differently. But how can you see what differently. But how can you see what differently. But how can you see what you've done as preparation?

you've done as preparation? you've done as preparation? Or can you? Reframe it if you need to. Or can you? Reframe it if you need to. Or can you? Reframe it if you need to. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Look, we know from the accounts in the Look, we know from the accounts in the Look, we know from the accounts in the Old Testament that God cares about Old Testament that God cares about Old Testament that God cares about buildings. Yeah. buildings. Yeah. buildings. Yeah. revival, you think of, you know, the revival, you think of, you know, the revival, you think of, you know, the glory of God filling a temple. They glory of God filling a temple. They glory of God filling a temple. They dedicate the temple. It says that that dedicate the temple. It says that that dedicate the temple. It says that that the the the the the the the cloud of glory filled the temple. the cloud of glory filled the temple. the cloud of glory filled the temple. And the priest can do their work. So, And the priest can do their work. So, And the priest can do their work. So, God is no stranger to to be honored with God is no stranger to to be honored with God is no stranger to to be honored with space. In fact, the incarnation teaches space. In fact, the incarnation teaches space. In fact, the incarnation teaches us that space is important to God. He us that space is important to God. He us that space is important to God. He matters. Matter matters to God. You matters. Matter matters to God. You matters. Matter matters to God. You know, he comes and moves in the hood. know, he comes and moves in the hood. know, he comes and moves in the hood. And William Booth, the founder of the And William Booth, the founder of the And William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army, said, you know, "What Salvation Army, said, you know, "What Salvation Army, said, you know, "What Why should the devil have all the good Why should the devil have all the good Why should the devil have all the good tunes?" You know, Yes. famous thing. You tunes?" You know, Yes. famous thing. You tunes?" You know, Yes. famous thing. You know, "What what Why should the devil know, "What what Why should the devil know, "What what Why should the devil have all the good architecture? You have all the good architecture? You have all the good architecture? You know, why should the buildings that we know, why should the buildings that we know, why should the buildings that we we dedicate to the glory of God be we dedicate to the glory of God be we dedicate to the glory of God be second rate?" Now, that's not to say second rate?" Now, that's not to say second rate?" Now, that's not to say that we can always do that we can always do that we can always do But with what we have, we've got to try But with what we have, we've got to try But with what we have, we've got to try and aim for the best that that and aim for the best that that and aim for the best that that Our buildings speak of in the same way Our buildings speak of in the same way Our buildings speak of in the same way that that that our coffee or our welcome that that that our coffee or our welcome that that that our coffee or our welcome or our anything speaks of love. You or our anything speaks of love. You or our anything speaks of love. You know, if you are invited into a home and know, if you are invited into a home and know, if you are invited into a home and there's no furniture and there's damp there's no furniture and there's damp there's no furniture and there's damp and it's cold and you made to sit on the and it's cold and you made to sit on the and it's cold and you made to sit on the floor and no one looks after you, you floor and no one looks after you, you floor and no one looks after you, you won't feel very welcomed.

won't feel very welcomed. won't feel very welcomed. If I come around to your house or carry If I come around to your house or carry If I come around to your house or carry out your camera from to my house when out your camera from to my house when out your camera from to my house when when you're in London, you know, I I when you're in London, you know, I I when you're in London, you know, I I I'll I'll I'll I'll look after you. I'll make you feel I'll look after you. I'll make you feel I'll look after you. I'll make you feel at home. I'll make sure you're dry and at home. I'll make sure you're dry and at home. I'll make sure you're dry and warm and that you feel welcomed and warm and that you feel welcomed and warm and that you feel welcomed and building speak of the nature of the building speak of the nature of the building speak of the nature of the welcome, the father's house. And so we welcome, the father's house. And so we welcome, the father's house. And so we don't make an idol out of buildings, but don't make an idol out of buildings, but don't make an idol out of buildings, but buildings are not incompatible with the buildings are not incompatible with the buildings are not incompatible with the presence of God. In fact, they are um presence of God. In fact, they are um presence of God. In fact, they are um synchronistic with the presence of God synchronistic with the presence of God synchronistic with the presence of God in the Old Testament. And of course in in the Old Testament. And of course in in the Old Testament. And of course in the New Testament, Jesus points to the New Testament, Jesus points to the New Testament, Jesus points to himself as no more about the temple, himself as no more about the temple, himself as no more about the temple, it's me um the new temple. You're all it's me um the new temple. You're all it's me um the new temple. You're all the temple now that that the people with the temple now that that the people with the temple now that that the people with the Holy Spirit lives. But we still got the Holy Spirit lives. But we still got the Holy Spirit lives. But we still got to have places to meet and we built the to have places to meet and we built the to have places to meet and we built the building. The building was first built building. The building was first built building. The building was first built 1792 to replace the building that was on 1792 to replace the building that was on 1792 to replace the building that was on the site since 1275 and I'll take you up the site since 1275 and I'll take you up the site since 1275 and I'll take you up that one. We've still got it in the in that one. We've still got it in the in that one. We've still got it in the in the gardens here. But so we built the gardens here. But so we built the gardens here. But so we built Wow. community where a church plant 78 Wow. community where a church plant 78 Wow. community where a church plant 78 years old is faint, but the community years old is faint, but the community years old is faint, but the community that I'm the the vicar of in the that I'm the the vicar of in the that I'm the the vicar of in the Anglican world has been here for nearly Anglican world has been here for nearly Anglican world has been here for nearly a thousand years praying. So um a thousand years praying. So um a thousand years praying. So um you know, and we've had to do the you know, and we've had to do the you know, and we've had to do the building up a few times in that time. So building up a few times in that time. So building up a few times in that time. So when we rebuilt the building, we said we when we rebuilt the building, we said we when we rebuilt the building, we said we look 99% people here don't go to church.

look 99% people here don't go to church. look 99% people here don't go to church. They won't come near a church and these They won't come near a church and these They won't come near a church and these buildings when they're empty and buildings when they're empty and buildings when they're empty and crumbling and dying, they look like the crumbling and dying, they look like the crumbling and dying, they look like the embassies of a country that's pulled embassies of a country that's pulled embassies of a country that's pulled out. Mhm. boarded up and that says that out. Mhm. boarded up and that says that out. Mhm. boarded up and that says that the the king and the kingdom the the king and the kingdom the the king and the kingdom isn't here and doesn't matter to us. isn't here and doesn't matter to us. isn't here and doesn't matter to us. We want every church to be like a We want every church to be like a We want every church to be like a cathedral of of hope, a cathedral cathedral of of hope, a cathedral cathedral of of hope, a cathedral creativity in that community that that creativity in that community that that creativity in that community that that wherever you're listening to, wherever wherever you're listening to, wherever wherever you're listening to, wherever church you're part of, your place in the church you're part of, your place in the church you're part of, your place in the community matters and the building community matters and the building community matters and the building you're in is important. It's not you're in is important. It's not you're in is important. It's not unimportant if you get what I'm saying. unimportant if you get what I'm saying. unimportant if you get what I'm saying. So we we want to do the building well. So we we want to do the building well. So we we want to do the building well. yeah, we worked with amazing architect, yeah, we worked with amazing architect, yeah, we worked with amazing architect, John Pawson, who's um um famous for John Pawson, who's um um famous for John Pawson, who's um um famous for being the father of modern minimalism. being the father of modern minimalism. being the father of modern minimalism. That's not really We knew John and my That's not really We knew John and my That's not really We knew John and my wife's an architect and she'd worked wife's an architect and she'd worked wife's an architect and she'd worked with John and he was a friend. So, we with John and he was a friend. So, we with John and he was a friend. So, we asked him if whether he'd help us with asked him if whether he'd help us with asked him if whether he'd help us with the building. He'd done a few churches the building. He'd done a few churches the building. He'd done a few churches over the years that have become quite over the years that have become quite over the years that have become quite well known. So, we um we said, "Look, we well known. So, we um we said, "Look, we well known. So, we um we said, "Look, we we really want to do this really well." we really want to do this really well." we really want to do this really well." Same with Es Devlin, who um Same with Es Devlin, who um Same with Es Devlin, who um helped to design a a chapel. She's a helped to design a a chapel. She's a helped to design a a chapel. She's a designer who works a lot with kind of designer who works a lot with kind of designer who works a lot with kind of Beyoncé and Beyoncé and Beyoncé and you know, you know, you know, the Olympics and U2 over the years. And the Olympics and U2 over the years. And the Olympics and U2 over the years. And she's an amazing creative. You know, our she's an amazing creative. You know, our she's an amazing creative. You know, our church buildings shouldn't just be like church buildings shouldn't just be like church buildings shouldn't just be like um um um they should reflect the glory of God in they should reflect the glory of God in they should reflect the glory of God in every aspect, every creativity.

every aspect, every creativity. every aspect, every creativity. Um you know, they should be Um you know, they should be Um you know, they should be mirrors, a little echo of the future mirrors, a little echo of the future mirrors, a little echo of the future coming of heaven. coming of heaven. coming of heaven. That's not to say that we shouldn't love That's not to say that we shouldn't love That's not to say that we shouldn't love the poor and our buildings should be the poor and our buildings should be the poor and our buildings should be exclusivist and um alienating people. exclusivist and um alienating people. exclusivist and um alienating people. But, we want to speak to people of the But, we want to speak to people of the But, we want to speak to people of the goodness and the love and the beauty of goodness and the love and the beauty of goodness and the love and the beauty of of heaven and the beauty of God. Um of heaven and the beauty of God. Um of heaven and the beauty of God. Um And so, for that reason, um matter And so, for that reason, um matter And so, for that reason, um matter matters. Buildings are important. Caring matters. Buildings are important. Caring matters. Buildings are important. Caring for people is important. How you make for people is important. How you make for people is important. How you make people feel and how you welcome them is people feel and how you welcome them is people feel and how you welcome them is important. important. important. Well, and you've you've used it, I Well, and you've you've used it, I Well, and you've you've used it, I believe, or artists have used it. Ed believe, or artists have used it. Ed believe, or artists have used it. Ed Sheeran did a concert there. Who are Sheeran did a concert there. Who are Sheeran did a concert there. Who are some of the others who have filmed some of the others who have filmed some of the others who have filmed videos or done a concert in your church videos or done a concert in your church videos or done a concert in your church since it was renovated? We've had a lot since it was renovated? We've had a lot since it was renovated? We've had a lot I mean, we had a lots of I never know I mean, we had a lots of I never know I mean, we had a lots of I never know who anyone knows. Like, I don't know who who anyone knows. Like, I don't know who who anyone knows. Like, I don't know who you you you So, like, Coldplay launched an album So, like, Coldplay launched an album So, like, Coldplay launched an album with us. Um I thought it was Coldplay, with us. Um I thought it was Coldplay, with us. Um I thought it was Coldplay, yeah. Um Stormzy, would he be well yeah. Um Stormzy, would he be well yeah. Um Stormzy, would he be well known? known? known? Yeah, yeah, Stormzy, yeah, yeah. Did a Yeah, yeah, Stormzy, yeah, yeah. Did a Yeah, yeah, Stormzy, yeah, yeah. Did a thing with a guy called Sam Fender thing with a guy called Sam Fender thing with a guy called Sam Fender recently. We've hosted like, yeah, lots recently. We've hosted like, yeah, lots recently. We've hosted like, yeah, lots of different people. And lots of people of different people. And lots of people of different people. And lots of people no one's ever heard of. Um And And what no one's ever heard of. Um And And what no one's ever heard of. Um And And what is what is the ministry or the idea is what is the ministry or the idea is what is the ministry or the idea behind that? Like, what's the behind that? Like, what's the behind that? Like, what's the philosophy? Yeah, philosophy? Yeah, philosophy? Yeah, again, in our generation, the church has in our generation, the church has not necessarily known as a place which not necessarily known as a place which not necessarily known as a place which is for the stewarding of the culture of is for the stewarding of the culture of is for the stewarding of the culture of of the moment of the culture of of the of the moment of the culture of of the of the moment of the culture of of the Yeah, we're railing against it pretty Yeah, we're railing against it pretty Yeah, we're railing against it pretty well right now. Church anti-culture or well right now. Church anti-culture or well right now. Church anti-culture or with church mimicking culture we used to with church mimicking culture we used to with church mimicking culture we used to 10 years behind or whatever. But 10 years behind or whatever. But 10 years behind or whatever. But actually historically the moments of of

actually historically the moments of of actually historically the moments of of the greatest flourishing of the kingdom the greatest flourishing of the kingdom the greatest flourishing of the kingdom of God have coincided with you think of of God have coincided with you think of of God have coincided with you think of Gutenberg and the printing press or the Gutenberg and the printing press or the Gutenberg and the printing press or the Renaissance in Europe when the dark ages Renaissance in Europe when the dark ages Renaissance in Europe when the dark ages kind of gave way to this explosion of kind of gave way to this explosion of kind of gave way to this explosion of light. light. light. They coincided with moments when the They coincided with moments when the They coincided with moments when the church has become so filled with the church has become so filled with the church has become so filled with the presence of God that the creativity that presence of God that the creativity that presence of God that the creativity that flows from the the church is really flows from the the church is really flows from the the church is really impacts the culture. And churches are impacts the culture. And churches are impacts the culture. And churches are meant to be places where we're made in meant to be places where we're made in meant to be places where we're made in the image of a creator. We're you know, the image of a creator. We're you know, the image of a creator. We're you know, we're marked by the creativity of God so we're marked by the creativity of God so we're marked by the creativity of God so that we can go and remake the world. And that we can go and remake the world. And that we can go and remake the world. And in the age of the algorithm in the age of the algorithm in the age of the algorithm the creativity of the human made in the the creativity of the human made in the the creativity of the human made in the image of a creator is an urgent thing image of a creator is an urgent thing image of a creator is an urgent thing that we need to recover in the church. that we need to recover in the church. that we need to recover in the church. So for us as a church community we serve So for us as a church community we serve So for us as a church community we serve a place in the world East London which a place in the world East London which a place in the world East London which is very creative, more creative per is very creative, more creative per is very creative, more creative per square mile than almost anywhere else on square mile than almost anywhere else on square mile than almost anywhere else on the planet. And the planet. And the planet. And we have this vision to reach and serve we have this vision to reach and serve we have this vision to reach and serve those creatives. And actually there'll those creatives. And actually there'll those creatives. And actually there'll be creatives everyone listening to this be creatives everyone listening to this be creatives everyone listening to this there'll be people in in your community there'll be people in in your community there'll be people in in your community who are shaping the future. They may not who are shaping the future. They may not who are shaping the future. They may not be a creative with the capital C but be a creative with the capital C but be a creative with the capital C but everybody is creative. Everyone is everybody is creative. Everyone is everybody is creative. Everyone is making stuff and creating a new future.

making stuff and creating a new future. making stuff and creating a new future. So for for those who are shaping that we So for for those who are shaping that we So for for those who are shaping that we want the church to be the kind of want the church to be the kind of want the church to be the kind of crucible of creativity for the world. crucible of creativity for the world. crucible of creativity for the world. The place where God plays out his The place where God plays out his The place where God plays out his creativity through the lives of the creativity through the lives of the creativity through the lives of the people there. So we've opened up our people there. So we've opened up our people there. So we've opened up our doors to to host musicians like Stormzy doors to to host musicians like Stormzy doors to to host musicians like Stormzy or Coldplay or Ed Sheeran. Not because or Coldplay or Ed Sheeran. Not because or Coldplay or Ed Sheeran. Not because we're trying to make money, we don't we're trying to make money, we don't we're trying to make money, we don't make any money off it, not because we're make any money off it, not because we're make any money off it, not because we're trying to look cool, we don't look cool, trying to look cool, we don't look cool, trying to look cool, we don't look cool, it's not the game. it's not the game. it's not the game. But because we believe in creativity as But because we believe in creativity as But because we believe in creativity as a reflection of the image of God. And so a reflection of the image of God. And so a reflection of the image of God. And so when you're in that world when you're in that world when you're in that world the last place you think is going to the last place you think is going to the last place you think is going to welcome you is the church. Again, I I I welcome you is the church. Again, I I I welcome you is the church. Again, I I I don't want to um say who, but I have a don't want to um say who, but I have a don't want to um say who, but I have a one of the leading artists in the world one of the leading artists in the world one of the leading artists in the world came and did a show with with us early came and did a show with with us early came and did a show with with us early on. I remember having a conversation on. I remember having a conversation on. I remember having a conversation with him in his green room in the church with him in his green room in the church with him in his green room in the church cuz I'm the cuz I'm the cuz I'm the vicar, so I kind of wandered past vicar, so I kind of wandered past vicar, so I kind of wandered past security to say, "Hey, you know, welcome security to say, "Hey, you know, welcome security to say, "Hey, you know, welcome to my church. I'm going to slip out and to my church. I'm going to slip out and to my church. I'm going to slip out and say hello." So, I welcomed this person. say hello." So, I welcomed this person. say hello." So, I welcomed this person. I said to them, um "You're so welcome I said to them, um "You're so welcome I said to them, um "You're so welcome here. I'm the vicar. I want to say here. I'm the vicar. I want to say here. I'm the vicar. I want to say hello." Um and he said, "Stop, you know, hello." Um and he said, "Stop, you know, hello." Um and he said, "Stop, you know, sit down." Told the security to go away. sit down." Told the security to go away. sit down." Told the security to go away. He said, "Hey, tell me why someone like He said, "Hey, tell me why someone like He said, "Hey, tell me why someone like you you you would let someone like me come and play would let someone like me come and play would let someone like me come and play in your church?"

in your church?" in your church?" I said, "Well, cuz someone like you, I said, "Well, cuz someone like you, I said, "Well, cuz someone like you, what you do what you do what you do reflects the someone reflects the someone reflects the someone that I worship. that I worship. that I worship. You're made in the image of a creator." You're made in the image of a creator." You're made in the image of a creator." And the light bulbs go on this guy's And the light bulbs go on this guy's And the light bulbs go on this guy's life. He's like, "Oh." life. He's like, "Oh." life. He's like, "Oh." The church is is meant to give meaning The church is is meant to give meaning The church is is meant to give meaning to the world. You know, Adam is invited to the world. You know, Adam is invited to the world. You know, Adam is invited by God in the beginning of Genesis to by God in the beginning of Genesis to by God in the beginning of Genesis to name the animals, a significant creative name the animals, a significant creative name the animals, a significant creative act, the first creative act the human act, the first creative act the human act, the first creative act the human race is involved in. God could have race is involved in. God could have race is involved in. God could have named the animals, A for aardvark, B for named the animals, A for aardvark, B for named the animals, A for aardvark, B for badger, you know, he could have gone badger, you know, he could have gone badger, you know, he could have gone through it. through it. through it. But he says, "Hey, Adam, I want you to But he says, "Hey, Adam, I want you to But he says, "Hey, Adam, I want you to be involved in this process." And it be involved in this process." And it be involved in this process." And it says, "Whatever Adam named them, God says, "Whatever Adam named them, God says, "Whatever Adam named them, God called them." Now, we're inviting the called them." Now, we're inviting the called them." Now, we're inviting the culture culture culture to be involved in God's creativity. So, to be involved in God's creativity. So, to be involved in God's creativity. So, when when we open our doors and we when when we open our doors and we when when we open our doors and we welcome a welcome a welcome a an artist, and it doesn't need to be an artist, and it doesn't need to be an artist, and it doesn't need to be someone famous. Famous is an illusion. someone famous. Famous is an illusion. someone famous. Famous is an illusion. We're actually inviting them into to We're actually inviting them into to We're actually inviting them into to finding a place in God's story and God's finding a place in God's story and God's finding a place in God's story and God's purpose for their life. So, every church purpose for their life. So, every church purpose for their life. So, every church should be a cathedral of creativity. should be a cathedral of creativity. should be a cathedral of creativity. Every church should be the place where Every church should be the place where Every church should be the place where the startups come to get energized, the startups come to get energized, the startups come to get energized, where AI comes to get the code to help where AI comes to get the code to help where AI comes to get the code to help it think right. Church should be the it think right. Church should be the it think right. Church should be the place, um like the great cathedrals of place, um like the great cathedrals of place, um like the great cathedrals of old, where the first art and the first old, where the first art and the first old, where the first art and the first language is formed that shapes the language is formed that shapes the language is formed that shapes the Western world.

Western world. Western world. And we've lost that vision and that And we've lost that vision and that And we've lost that vision and that calling. But here's the thing, calling. But here's the thing, calling. But here's the thing, in the next 30 years, with the in the next 30 years, with the in the next 30 years, with the fundamental shifts that coming down the fundamental shifts that coming down the fundamental shifts that coming down the train tracks of human life, we're going train tracks of human life, we're going train tracks of human life, we're going to recover that through the church. It's to recover that through the church. It's to recover that through the church. It's going to be paramount. Otherwise, we'll going to be paramount. Otherwise, we'll going to be paramount. Otherwise, we'll cease to exist. In the age of an cease to exist. In the age of an cease to exist. In the age of an algorithm, when you as a Christian algorithm, when you as a Christian algorithm, when you as a Christian following Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit following Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit following Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit in a community, in a community, in a community, you're the you're the source of original you're the you're the source of original you're the you're the source of original thought. God is the only one who creates thought. God is the only one who creates thought. God is the only one who creates ex nihilo out of nothing. Um algorithms ex nihilo out of nothing. Um algorithms ex nihilo out of nothing. Um algorithms can't do that. So, our job as the church can't do that. So, our job as the church can't do that. So, our job as the church and our gospel in this moment is more and our gospel in this moment is more and our gospel in this moment is more urgent than ever to reconnect the urgent than ever to reconnect the urgent than ever to reconnect the creative with the creator, the artist creative with the creator, the artist creative with the creator, the artist with the original maker. And so, with the original maker. And so, with the original maker. And so, churches are going to be the most churches are going to be the most churches are going to be the most exciting places to be in the next 50 exciting places to be in the next 50 exciting places to be in the next 50 years. Um you know, I think get ready years. Um you know, I think get ready years. Um you know, I think get ready because if we we get this right, we got because if we we get this right, we got because if we we get this right, we got a a a a renaissance coming. a renaissance coming. a renaissance coming. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Wow. I'll I'll tell you, I am so Wow. I'll I'll tell you, I am so Wow. I'll I'll tell you, I am so intrigued intrigued intrigued to learn more. So, this is in in all of to learn more. So, this is in in all of to learn more. So, this is in in all of these episodes we've done, Al, this is these episodes we've done, Al, this is these episodes we've done, Al, this is the first edition of Between Two Flights the first edition of Between Two Flights the first edition of Between Two Flights where I flew in and you're flying out.

where I flew in and you're flying out. where I flew in and you're flying out. So, we probably need to wrap up right So, we probably need to wrap up right So, we probably need to wrap up right now. But, here's what I'd love to do. now. But, here's what I'd love to do. now. But, here's what I'd love to do. Next time I'm in London, Next time I'm in London, Next time I'm in London, let's go meet at Saint. Oh, let's. let's go meet at Saint. Oh, let's. let's go meet at Saint. Oh, let's. sit down, and we'll have a film crew sit down, and we'll have a film crew sit down, and we'll have a film crew there, and we'll continue this there, and we'll continue this there, and we'll continue this conversation. conversation. conversation. And I think that would be amazing And I think that would be amazing And I think that would be amazing because I got to two of my questions, so because I got to two of my questions, so because I got to two of my questions, so that's pretty pretty good for an hour. that's pretty pretty good for an hour. that's pretty pretty good for an hour. Uh and there's so much we left on the Uh and there's so much we left on the Uh and there's so much we left on the table. So, if you're open to a round table. So, if you're open to a round table. So, if you're open to a round two, I would be very open to that, and two, I would be very open to that, and two, I would be very open to that, and we'll do this in person next time. we'll do this in person next time. we'll do this in person next time. Come. Can I ask you a question, Carey? Come. Can I ask you a question, Carey? Come. Can I ask you a question, Carey? Yeah, please. Are you allergic to bees? Yeah, please. Are you allergic to bees? Yeah, please. Are you allergic to bees? I am not. No. When you come, I'm going I am not. No. When you come, I'm going I am not. No. When you come, I'm going to take you to meet to take you to meet to take you to meet 500,000 members of Saint that live on 500,000 members of Saint that live on 500,000 members of Saint that live on our roof. And I'll our roof. And I'll our roof. And I'll tell you why the future of the church tell you why the future of the church tell you why the future of the church looks like keeping an apiary. looks like keeping an apiary. looks like keeping an apiary. Um and we're going to look at that with Um and we're going to look at that with Um and we're going to look at that with your film crew. So, look forward your film crew. So, look forward your film crew. So, look forward That will be amazing. Al, I've enjoyed That will be amazing. Al, I've enjoyed That will be amazing. Al, I've enjoyed this so much. I want to thank you for this so much. I want to thank you for this so much. I want to thank you for being with us. So, if people want to being with us. So, if people want to being with us. So, if people want to track with you and the incredible work track with you and the incredible work track with you and the incredible work that's happening at Saint, that's happening at Saint, that's happening at Saint, um where where's an easy place to find um where where's an easy place to find um where where's an easy place to find you? Well, listen, um, I want to say you? Well, listen, um, I want to say you? Well, listen, um, I want to say firstly, Katie, you thank you. Um, firstly, Katie, you thank you. Um, firstly, Katie, you thank you. Um, I feel I feel I feel um, um, um, slightly mortified as a as a Brit. We slightly mortified as a as a Brit. We slightly mortified as a as a Brit. We don't like, um, don't like, um, don't like, um, you know, you you you you you you you you know, you you you you you you you you know, you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you Uh, you know, I'm going to go and you Uh, you know, I'm going to go and you Uh, you know, I'm going to go and hide now having spoken to you, but I'm hide now having spoken to you, but I'm hide now having spoken to you, but I'm so grateful for you for your so grateful for you for your so grateful for you for your encouragement and speaking with you has

encouragement and speaking with you has encouragement and speaking with you has been great. I hope some of this what been great. I hope some of this what been great. I hope some of this what I've shared has been helpful. I mean, if I've shared has been helpful. I mean, if I've shared has been helpful. I mean, if you want to check out and connect in you want to check out and connect in you want to check out and connect in with what I've talked about, um, fun of with what I've talked about, um, fun of with what I've talked about, um, fun of I I love messaging with people. So, my I I love messaging with people. So, my I I love messaging with people. So, my Instagram is open and anybody can Instagram is open and anybody can Instagram is open and anybody can message me. Um, I'm at algordon, message me. Um, I'm at algordon, message me. Um, I'm at algordon, but the there's a dot between the the d but the there's a dot between the the d but the there's a dot between the the d and the o n. So, algord.on. and the o n. So, algord.on. and the o n. So, algord.on. Um, so, people can just message me if Um, so, people can just message me if Um, so, people can just message me if they want to find out more. But, also, they want to find out more. But, also, they want to find out more. But, also, our our our our our our church, saint.church on Instagram, or church, saint.church on Instagram, or church, saint.church on Instagram, or Renaissance, I talked about Renaissance. Renaissance, I talked about Renaissance. Renaissance, I talked about Renaissance. We we run a thing called Renaissance We we run a thing called Renaissance We we run a thing called Renaissance which training leaders now all over the which training leaders now all over the which training leaders now all over the place and helping create space for these place and helping create space for these place and helping create space for these kind of conversations. And that's at kind of conversations. And that's at kind of conversations. And that's at renaissance.movement. renaissance.movement. renaissance.movement. And people would be delighted to connect And people would be delighted to connect And people would be delighted to connect in. We we know we'd we'd be delighted to in. We we know we'd we'd be delighted to in. We we know we'd we'd be delighted to connect in with with everyone listening. connect in with with everyone listening. connect in with with everyone listening. But, thank you for having me. Can't wait But, thank you for having me. Can't wait But, thank you for having me. Can't wait to catch up in London. Let's do it. to catch up in London. Let's do it. to catch up in London. Let's do it. That'd be great. Thank you so much. That'd be great. Thank you so much. That'd be great. Thank you so much. excited for it. Al, thank you so much. excited for it. Al, thank you so much. excited for it. Al, thank you so much. Yeah, we'll go hang out.