When Church Members Break Your Heart and Your Trust

What felt really dicey was this issue of What felt really dicey was this issue of am I going to be rejected again? Are am I going to be rejected again? Are am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away from me again? people going to walk away from me again? people going to walk away from me again? Like is it worth opening myself up to Like is it worth opening myself up to Like is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church? And landing in the people in my church? And landing in the people in my church? And landing in a place of realizing a place of realizing a place of realizing in fact there is only one safe person in fact there is only one safe person in fact there is only one safe person that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to find people who will never hurt me, I'm find people who will never hurt me, I'm find people who will never hurt me, I'm going to be looking for them for the going to be looking for them for the going to be looking for them for the rest of my life. So, welcome to the rest of my life. So, welcome to the rest of my life. So, welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Today, what do you do when church Today, what do you do when church Today, what do you do when church members break your heart and when they members break your heart and when they members break your heart and when they break your trust? Sharon Hottie Miller break your trust? Sharon Hottie Miller break your trust? Sharon Hottie Miller joins us to talk about resilience and joins us to talk about resilience and joins us to talk about resilience and speaking into the culture. And wherever speaking into the culture. And wherever speaking into the culture. And wherever you're watching, be sure to give us a you're watching, be sure to give us a you're watching, be sure to give us a subscribe. Maybe uh like it and leave a subscribe. Maybe uh like it and leave a subscribe. Maybe uh like it and leave a comment as well. And now to today's comment as well. And now to today's comment as well. And now to today's conversation. Sharon, welcome back. So conversation. Sharon, welcome back. So conversation. Sharon, welcome back. So good to have you again. good to have you again. good to have you again. >> It is good to be back. >> It is good to be back. >> It is good to be back. >> Yeah. So you've been doing a lot of work >> Yeah. So you've been doing a lot of work >> Yeah. So you've been doing a lot of work with a couple of colleagues on with a couple of colleagues on with a couple of colleagues on resilience over the last few years. When resilience over the last few years. When resilience over the last few years. When you look at the church today, where do you look at the church today, where do you look at the church today, where do you see leaders struggling the most with you see leaders struggling the most with you see leaders struggling the most with resilience?

resilience? resilience? >> So I don't even have to look at the >> So I don't even have to look at the >> So I don't even have to look at the church today. I can look at myself and I church today. I can look at myself and I church today. I can look at myself and I [laughter] can look at my own leadership [laughter] can look at my own leadership [laughter] can look at my own leadership and my staff as well. But I think one of and my staff as well. But I think one of and my staff as well. But I think one of the hardest parts of ministry, at least the hardest parts of ministry, at least the hardest parts of ministry, at least for me personally, is the relationship for me personally, is the relationship for me personally, is the relationship side of ministry. One of the things I side of ministry. One of the things I side of ministry. One of the things I have really been grappling with over the have really been grappling with over the have really been grappling with over the last several years is the ways that last several years is the ways that last several years is the ways that consumerism has infiltrated the church. consumerism has infiltrated the church. consumerism has infiltrated the church. And because of that, I very often feel And because of that, I very often feel And because of that, I very often feel like what I am offering is a goods and like what I am offering is a goods and like what I am offering is a goods and service. That the pro the church is a service. That the pro the church is a service. That the pro the church is a product. I am a product to be consumed product. I am a product to be consumed product. I am a product to be consumed or discarded. or discarded. or discarded. And that's not obviously what I signed And that's not obviously what I signed And that's not obviously what I signed up for. And so when there's turnover in up for. And so when there's turnover in up for. And so when there's turnover in the church, when there is relational the church, when there is relational the church, when there is relational loss, and this was especially loss, and this was especially loss, and this was especially high back in 2020, less so now, but I've high back in 2020, less so now, but I've high back in 2020, less so now, but I've honestly really struggled with that honestly really struggled with that honestly really struggled with that relational loss, just how constant it is relational loss, just how constant it is relational loss, just how constant it is and how to process that. And I see my and how to process that. And I see my and how to process that. And I see my staff struggling with that as well. I staff struggling with that as well. I staff struggling with that as well. I think for me personally kind of the two think for me personally kind of the two think for me personally kind of the two unhealthy ways I find myself trying to unhealthy ways I find myself trying to unhealthy ways I find myself trying to cope with it is either through escape cope with it is either through escape cope with it is either through escape and for me that's not necessarily like

and for me that's not necessarily like and for me that's not necessarily like in unhealthy ways like obviously this in unhealthy ways like obviously this in unhealthy ways like obviously this can take the form of substance abuse or can take the form of substance abuse or can take the form of substance abuse or affairs or whatever for me sometimes affairs or whatever for me sometimes affairs or whatever for me sometimes it's just never allowing myself to be it's just never allowing myself to be it's just never allowing myself to be silent or still like I'm just constantly silent or still like I'm just constantly silent or still like I'm just constantly kind of running from having to confront kind of running from having to confront kind of running from having to confront the pain. Um, another is becoming the pain. Um, another is becoming the pain. Um, another is becoming cynical. This I especially see with our cynical. This I especially see with our cynical. This I especially see with our younger staff is after, you know, having younger staff is after, you know, having younger staff is after, you know, having relational loss, being hurt. Sometimes relational loss, being hurt. Sometimes relational loss, being hurt. Sometimes it's just being treated poorly by people it's just being treated poorly by people it's just being treated poorly by people that you're serving that you kind of that you're serving that you kind of that you're serving that you kind of start to armor up like I I don't want to start to armor up like I I don't want to start to armor up like I I don't want to be hurt by people and so I anticipate be hurt by people and so I anticipate be hurt by people and so I anticipate them hurting me. And so that's something them hurting me. And so that's something them hurting me. And so that's something that for me I recognized that for me I recognized that for me I recognized several years ago now. several years ago now. several years ago now. This is going to be the thing that takes This is going to be the thing that takes This is going to be the thing that takes me out if I don't deal with it. So me out if I don't deal with it. So me out if I don't deal with it. So definitely relationship wounds. definitely relationship wounds. definitely relationship wounds. >> It's interesting you would mention that >> It's interesting you would mention that >> It's interesting you would mention that because if you think about the way the because if you think about the way the because if you think about the way the model of how we do ministry, it's been model of how we do ministry, it's been model of how we do ministry, it's been pivoting. And I think you could look pivoting. And I think you could look pivoting. And I think you could look back 10-15 years, you know, secret back 10-15 years, you know, secret back 10-15 years, you know, secret targeted church, the attractional targeted church, the attractional targeted church, the attractional church.

church. church. There are good things about that, but There are good things about that, but There are good things about that, but probably at our worst, that was consumer probably at our worst, that was consumer probably at our worst, that was consumer Christianity, right? That's like do Christianity, right? That's like do Christianity, right? That's like do things that attract people and away you things that attract people and away you things that attract people and away you go. And we've really pivoted away from go. And we've really pivoted away from go. And we've really pivoted away from that over the last decade. But it's that over the last decade. But it's that over the last decade. But it's interesting because I think what I hear interesting because I think what I hear interesting because I think what I hear you saying, Sharon, is the consumer you saying, Sharon, is the consumer you saying, Sharon, is the consumer mindset is still very much a part of how mindset is still very much a part of how mindset is still very much a part of how people think of church. Is that what I people think of church. Is that what I people think of church. Is that what I hear you saying or what are you saying? hear you saying or what are you saying? hear you saying or what are you saying? Absolutely. And I would be curious, I Absolutely. And I would be curious, I Absolutely. And I would be curious, I don't know if there have been any don't know if there have been any don't know if there have been any studies on studies on studies on how much church turnover has increased how much church turnover has increased how much church turnover has increased over the years because you think back to over the years because you think back to over the years because you think back to 100 years ago, everyone just goes to 100 years ago, everyone just goes to 100 years ago, everyone just goes to their local church and they stay there their local church and they stay there their local church and they stay there until they die. until they die. until they die. >> That is not the story anymore. You know, >> That is not the story anymore. You know, >> That is not the story anymore. You know, most people have been to many, many most people have been to many, many most people have been to many, many churches and some of it in our area, we churches and some of it in our area, we churches and some of it in our area, we have a very transient area and so have a very transient area and so have a very transient area and so sometimes it's just people move here or sometimes it's just people move here or sometimes it's just people move here or move away. But a lot of it is also very move away. But a lot of it is also very move away. But a lot of it is also very much preferential where it's like, okay, much preferential where it's like, okay, much preferential where it's like, okay, this church doesn't I don't necessarily this church doesn't I don't necessarily this church doesn't I don't necessarily disagree with the leadership even, but disagree with the leadership even, but disagree with the leadership even, but this church doesn't have the program this church doesn't have the program this church doesn't have the program that I want and so I'm going to go to that I want and so I'm going to go to that I want and so I'm going to go to the church down the street to get the the church down the street to get the the church down the street to get the program that I want. And for me that has program that I want. And for me that has program that I want. And for me that has really challenged how I I previously really challenged how I I previously really challenged how I I previously understood, you know, we're really still understood, you know, we're really still understood, you know, we're really still like how I understand what is church.

like how I understand what is church. like how I understand what is church. Like it is meant to be this robust Like it is meant to be this robust Like it is meant to be this robust community where we grow toward one community where we grow toward one community where we grow toward one another and are sanctified in our another and are sanctified in our another and are sanctified in our relationships one with one another. And relationships one with one another. And relationships one with one another. And so I kind of went into ministry so I kind of went into ministry so I kind of went into ministry brighteyed and bushy tailed thinking brighteyed and bushy tailed thinking brighteyed and bushy tailed thinking this is what it's going to be. and then this is what it's going to be. and then this is what it's going to be. and then to experience no in fact it's going to to experience no in fact it's going to to experience no in fact it's going to feel like there's this revolving door of feel like there's this revolving door of feel like there's this revolving door of people in my life. And so I've I have people in my life. And so I've I have people in my life. And so I've I have struggled like I'm being really honest struggled like I'm being really honest struggled like I'm being really honest with you [laughter] with you [laughter] with you [laughter] struggled to reconcile myself to that. struggled to reconcile myself to that. struggled to reconcile myself to that. You know, we had that moment a few You know, we had that moment a few You know, we had that moment a few months ago, and there have been many months ago, and there have been many months ago, and there have been many over the last number of years where, you over the last number of years where, you over the last number of years where, you know, you think about Charlie Kirk and know, you think about Charlie Kirk and know, you think about Charlie Kirk and the social media buzz from other pastors the social media buzz from other pastors the social media buzz from other pastors was if your pastor didn't talk about it was if your pastor didn't talk about it was if your pastor didn't talk about it or talking to leaders around a table the or talking to leaders around a table the or talking to leaders around a table the week after who did talk about it, but week after who did talk about it, but week after who did talk about it, but they didn't talk about it in the right they didn't talk about it in the right they didn't talk about it in the right way, they were too this or they were too way, they were too this or they were too way, they were too this or they were too that or they said too much or they said that or they said too much or they said that or they said too much or they said too little or whatever. And I think you too little or whatever. And I think you too little or whatever. And I think you know the the tweet was if your pastor know the the tweet was if your pastor know the the tweet was if your pastor didn't talk about it, it's time to get a didn't talk about it, it's time to get a didn't talk about it, it's time to get a new pastor, right? That kind of new pastor, right? That kind of new pastor, right? That kind of [laughter] thing. I'm not going to point [laughter] thing. I'm not going to point [laughter] thing. I'm not going to point fingers, but like there is that intense fingers, but like there is that intense fingers, but like there is that intense pressure from all around that, you know, pressure from all around that, you know, pressure from all around that, you know, you're almost no matter what you say or you're almost no matter what you say or you're almost no matter what you say or what you do, you're going to offend what you do, you're going to offend what you do, you're going to offend somebody. How have you and your husband somebody. How have you and your husband somebody. How have you and your husband Ike, because you co-pastor your church, Ike, because you co-pastor your church, Ike, because you co-pastor your church, how has that shown up for you in a how has that shown up for you in a how has that shown up for you in a personal way?

personal way? personal way? So that very much was our experience in So that very much was our experience in So that very much was our experience in 2020 when we were leading and our church 2020 when we were leading and our church 2020 when we were leading and our church plant was only 18 months old at the time plant was only 18 months old at the time plant was only 18 months old at the time of the pandemic. So of the pandemic. So of the pandemic. So >> that's a baby. >> that's a baby. >> that's a baby. >> That wasn't great. [laughter] >> That wasn't great. [laughter] >> That wasn't great. [laughter] That was not great. That was not great. That was not great. >> That wasn't great. >> That wasn't great. >> That wasn't great. >> But one of the things, you know, it was >> But one of the things, you know, it was >> But one of the things, you know, it was really interesting for us, you know, at really interesting for us, you know, at really interesting for us, you know, at that age, a church plant doesn't really that age, a church plant doesn't really that age, a church plant doesn't really know what it is yet. we we were still know what it is yet. we we were still know what it is yet. we we were still sort of clarifying our own values and sort of clarifying our own values and sort of clarifying our own values and our own identity. And so how we walked our own identity. And so how we walked our own identity. And so how we walked through the pandemic absolutely through the pandemic absolutely through the pandemic absolutely clarified that for ourselves and the clarified that for ourselves and the clarified that for ourselves and the people at our church. And so we just people at our church. And so we just people at our church. And so we just naturally had a lot of turnover during naturally had a lot of turnover during naturally had a lot of turnover during that season. But it also I think for us that season. But it also I think for us that season. But it also I think for us it helped us to realize we need to be it helped us to realize we need to be it helped us to realize we need to be forward- facing with our most important forward- facing with our most important forward- facing with our most important values. Like like we can't be trying to values. Like like we can't be trying to values. Like like we can't be trying to please everyone in the church. We need please everyone in the church. We need please everyone in the church. We need to just be upfront about this is what we to just be upfront about this is what we to just be upfront about this is what we believe. this is what our mission is, believe. this is what our mission is, believe. this is what our mission is, that sort of a thing. And that was very that sort of a thing. And that was very that sort of a thing. And that was very painful. But I know for some pastors, painful. But I know for some pastors, painful. But I know for some pastors, it was much worse. We did a conference, it was much worse. We did a conference, it was much worse. We did a conference, [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] kind of a small conference type retreat kind of a small conference type retreat kind of a small conference type retreat with Bara and the Resilient Pastor with Bara and the Resilient Pastor with Bara and the Resilient Pastor Initiative where we met with pastors Initiative where we met with pastors Initiative where we met with pastors from all over the country. And this was from all over the country. And this was from all over the country. And this was a year or two after the pandemic. And I a year or two after the pandemic. And I a year or two after the pandemic. And I will never forget sitting in that room will never forget sitting in that room will never forget sitting in that room with pastors. It felt like a grief with pastors. It felt like a grief with pastors. It felt like a grief support group just looking around at the

support group just looking around at the support group just looking around at the pastors. It was stories of having pastors. It was stories of having pastors. It was stories of having pastored, having raised your family with pastored, having raised your family with pastored, having raised your family with other people, having been at the same other people, having been at the same other people, having been at the same church for 40 years, thinking we are in church for 40 years, thinking we are in church for 40 years, thinking we are in this for the long haul, and then this for the long haul, and then this for the long haul, and then realizing no, we disagree over this and realizing no, we disagree over this and realizing no, we disagree over this and now we're not in relationship anymore. now we're not in relationship anymore. now we're not in relationship anymore. And so the fallout of that, we felt it, And so the fallout of that, we felt it, And so the fallout of that, we felt it, but I think some people felt it even but I think some people felt it even but I think some people felt it even worse just because our church was so worse just because our church was so worse just because our church was so young. We weren't losing these decades young. We weren't losing these decades young. We weren't losing these decades long relationships. long relationships. long relationships. But what I had to personally grapple But what I had to personally grapple But what I had to personally grapple with, there were a number of things. One with, there were a number of things. One with, there were a number of things. One was how to was how to was how to be in relationship with people in my be in relationship with people in my be in relationship with people in my church. I know that this is a really church. I know that this is a really church. I know that this is a really age-old question for pastors is, are you age-old question for pastors is, are you age-old question for pastors is, are you friends with the people in your church? friends with the people in your church? friends with the people in your church? And for me, what felt really dicey was And for me, what felt really dicey was And for me, what felt really dicey was this issue of, am I going to be rejected this issue of, am I going to be rejected this issue of, am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away again? Are people going to walk away again? Are people going to walk away from me again? Like, is it worth opening from me again? Like, is it worth opening from me again? Like, is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church?

myself up to the people in my church? myself up to the people in my church? and landing in a place of realizing and landing in a place of realizing and landing in a place of realizing in fact there is only one safe person in fact there is only one safe person in fact there is only one safe person that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to find people who will never hurt me, I'm find people who will never hurt me, I'm find people who will never hurt me, I'm going to be looking for them for the going to be looking for them for the going to be looking for them for the rest of my life. And so wisdom means I rest of my life. And so wisdom means I rest of my life. And so wisdom means I need to have relationship with people in need to have relationship with people in need to have relationship with people in my church who it is a wise risk to take my church who it is a wise risk to take my church who it is a wise risk to take to open myself up to. That doesn't mean to open myself up to. That doesn't mean to open myself up to. That doesn't mean they will never hurt me. It doesn't mean they will never hurt me. It doesn't mean they will never hurt me. It doesn't mean they'll never disappoint me. It doesn't they'll never disappoint me. It doesn't they'll never disappoint me. It doesn't mean they will never leave. But I cannot mean they will never leave. But I cannot mean they will never leave. But I cannot be in a church where I am unknown to my be in a church where I am unknown to my be in a church where I am unknown to my people. And so that's something that I people. And so that's something that I people. And so that's something that I have navigated. But the other piece that have navigated. But the other piece that have navigated. But the other piece that has been really critical for me in has been really critical for me in has been really critical for me in longevity in ministry and navigating longevity in ministry and navigating longevity in ministry and navigating this particular pain point was realizing this particular pain point was realizing this particular pain point was realizing that I have to have a regular practice that I have to have a regular practice that I have to have a regular practice of forgiveness. of forgiveness. of forgiveness. And for me, you know, this is like a And for me, you know, this is like a And for me, you know, this is like a daily. Sometimes there's some seasons daily. Sometimes there's some seasons daily. Sometimes there's some seasons where like my rule of life like my my where like my rule of life like my my where like my rule of life like my my weekly sometimes daily rule of life part weekly sometimes daily rule of life part weekly sometimes daily rule of life part of that is going to be a forgiveness of that is going to be a forgiveness of that is going to be a forgiveness practice where I have to end the day.

practice where I have to end the day. practice where I have to end the day. And for me the way that looks is I will And for me the way that looks is I will And for me the way that looks is I will end my day, close my eyes, review the end my day, close my eyes, review the end my day, close my eyes, review the day, be grateful, express gratitude, day, be grateful, express gratitude, day, be grateful, express gratitude, thank God for anything that I need to thank God for anything that I need to thank God for anything that I need to thank him for. But then if there is thank him for. But then if there is thank him for. But then if there is anything that I am holding that I should anything that I am holding that I should anything that I am holding that I should not be holding, I hand it to Jesus. And not be holding, I hand it to Jesus. And not be holding, I hand it to Jesus. And that for me is how I conceptualize of that for me is how I conceptualize of that for me is how I conceptualize of whatever wounds have been sent my way. whatever wounds have been sent my way. whatever wounds have been sent my way. But I I realized it it is not enough to But I I realized it it is not enough to But I I realized it it is not enough to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to have a way to metabolize them in a have a way to metabolize them in a have a way to metabolize them in a healthy way. And thankfully Jesus has healthy way. And thankfully Jesus has healthy way. And thankfully Jesus has given us that [laughter] healthy way to given us that [laughter] healthy way to given us that [laughter] healthy way to metabolize our wounds which is through metabolize our wounds which is through metabolize our wounds which is through forgiveness. And so that has been forgiveness. And so that has been forgiveness. And so that has been actually something I've been telling actually something I've been telling actually something I've been telling more young leaders about is is you more young leaders about is is you more young leaders about is is you cannot stay the course if you don't have cannot stay the course if you don't have cannot stay the course if you don't have a forgiveness practice because you are a forgiveness practice because you are a forgiveness practice because you are going to be wounded by your people. And going to be wounded by your people. And going to be wounded by your people. And if you don't have a way to process those if you don't have a way to process those if you don't have a way to process those wounds in not just a healthy way but a wounds in not just a healthy way but a wounds in not just a healthy way but a Christian way it is going to eat you Christian way it is going to eat you Christian way it is going to eat you from the inside out.

from the inside out. from the inside out. friendship. That's a thorny issue for friendship. That's a thorny issue for friendship. That's a thorny issue for every pastor. I think we've all every pastor. I think we've all every pastor. I think we've all >> struggled with it. What is your Do you >> struggled with it. What is your Do you >> struggled with it. What is your Do you have a working theology? You said, "I have a working theology? You said, "I have a working theology? You said, "I need a few wise friends in the need a few wise friends in the need a few wise friends in the congregation." congregation." congregation." >> Um, how deep can you go with them? Can >> Um, how deep can you go with them? Can >> Um, how deep can you go with them? Can that be 100%. I'm all in. I mean, I have that be 100%. I'm all in. I mean, I have that be 100%. I'm all in. I mean, I have a a working theory that I had that I'm a a working theory that I had that I'm a a working theory that I had that I'm happy to share, but I want to hear from happy to share, but I want to hear from happy to share, but I want to hear from you. What What is your approach like? you. What What is your approach like? you. What What is your approach like? Because you're right. It's probably only Because you're right. It's probably only Because you're right. It's probably only a matter until someone from that inner a matter until someone from that inner a matter until someone from that inner circle that you trusted says, "You circle that you trusted says, "You circle that you trusted says, "You didn't say enough. You said too much. didn't say enough. You said too much. didn't say enough. You said too much. That sermon, this church, boom, they're That sermon, this church, boom, they're That sermon, this church, boom, they're gone." gone." gone." >> Yeah. One of the things that has been >> Yeah. One of the things that has been >> Yeah. One of the things that has been really helpful to me, and I know he has really helpful to me, and I know he has really helpful to me, and I know he has mentioned it before on this podcast, but mentioned it before on this podcast, but mentioned it before on this podcast, but Glenn Pacquium talks about having a Glenn Pacquium talks about having a Glenn Pacquium talks about having a constellation of he talks about having a constellation of he talks about having a constellation of he talks about having a constellation of mentors, but I I think constellation of mentors, but I I think constellation of mentors, but I I think it also applies to friends, having it also applies to friends, having it also applies to friends, having different types of friends. And that has different types of friends. And that has different types of friends. And that has been really helpful to me because the been really helpful to me because the been really helpful to me because the fact of the matter is I can open myself fact of the matter is I can open myself fact of the matter is I can open myself up to people in the church, but up to people in the church, but up to people in the church, but obviously not about anything obviously not about anything obviously not about anything confidential that is happening in the confidential that is happening in the confidential that is happening in the church. I think the most I can share is church. I think the most I can share is church. I think the most I can share is probably with our elders, but beyond probably with our elders, but beyond probably with our elders, but beyond that, there's just going to be some that, there's just going to be some that, there's just going to be some things where I'm not going to share things where I'm not going to share things where I'm not going to share every single little thing. And so, I do every single little thing. And so, I do every single little thing. And so, I do have friends outside of the church. I have friends outside of the church. I have friends outside of the church. I have one friend in particular who is my

have one friend in particular who is my have one friend in particular who is my you get to know everything [laughter] you get to know everything [laughter] you get to know everything [laughter] friend. All the ugly stuff that is going friend. All the ugly stuff that is going friend. All the ugly stuff that is going on in my marriage, that's going on in my on in my marriage, that's going on in my on in my marriage, that's going on in my heart. And so I really love that heart. And so I really love that heart. And so I really love that concept. But I'm curious, what is your concept. But I'm curious, what is your concept. But I'm curious, what is your working theory of friendship? working theory of friendship? working theory of friendship? >> Well, my theory and it's been easier for >> Well, my theory and it's been easier for >> Well, my theory and it's been easier for me because I stepped out of the lead me because I stepped out of the lead me because I stepped out of the lead role 10 years ago and out of a regular role 10 years ago and out of a regular role 10 years ago and out of a regular teaching rotation five years ago. So now teaching rotation five years ago. So now teaching rotation five years ago. So now I'm pretty much just a volunteer and my I'm pretty much just a volunteer and my I'm pretty much just a volunteer and my wife's husband. you know, she's an elder wife's husband. you know, she's an elder wife's husband. you know, she's an elder now at our church, which is awesome. now at our church, which is awesome. now at our church, which is awesome. But, um, I my theory has been you can go But, um, I my theory has been you can go But, um, I my theory has been you can go 90% of the way with a close friendship 90% of the way with a close friendship 90% of the way with a close friendship circle. And I say 90% because there's circle. And I say 90% because there's circle. And I say 90% because there's some stuff you can't share because it's some stuff you can't share because it's some stuff you can't share because it's their church. It's confidential. Good their church. It's confidential. Good their church. It's confidential. Good example would be you got to let somebody example would be you got to let somebody example would be you got to let somebody go and you don't really want to do it. go and you don't really want to do it. go and you don't really want to do it. Well, you know, that's behind the scenes Well, you know, that's behind the scenes Well, you know, that's behind the scenes with a couple of staff or an elder, but with a couple of staff or an elder, but with a couple of staff or an elder, but you can't really dump that on your you can't really dump that on your you can't really dump that on your friends or you're really frustrated with friends or you're really frustrated with friends or you're really frustrated with the elders. Well, you can't really, and the elders. Well, you can't really, and the elders. Well, you can't really, and I didn't often have that, but you can't I didn't often have that, but you can't I didn't often have that, but you can't really argue. So, it's like 90% I think really argue. So, it's like 90% I think really argue. So, it's like 90% I think you can go with some really good you can go with some really good you can go with some really good friends. And now that I'm in the role I friends. And now that I'm in the role I friends. And now that I'm in the role I am, there's, you know, a handful and am, there's, you know, a handful and am, there's, you know, a handful and literally you don't need a lot. Just a literally you don't need a lot. Just a literally you don't need a lot. Just a handful that I feel like I can be 100% handful that I feel like I can be 100% handful that I feel like I can be 100% transparent with because they're my transparent with because they're my transparent with because they're my friends. Not because I'm the pastor, friends. Not because I'm the pastor, friends. Not because I'm the pastor, because I'm not anymore. or I'm just a because I'm not anymore. or I'm just a because I'm not anymore. or I'm just a guy who attends a church and supports guy who attends a church and supports guy who attends a church and supports the church. Uh but now I feel like, you the church. Uh but now I feel like, you the church. Uh but now I feel like, you know, they can have 100% of my an know, they can have 100% of my an know, they can have 100% of my an authentic friendship with me.

authentic friendship with me. authentic friendship with me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What do you think of that? I mean, feel >> What do you think of that? I mean, feel >> What do you think of that? I mean, feel free to pull it apart. That was my free to pull it apart. That was my free to pull it apart. That was my theory. It's not the right theory. theory. It's not the right theory. theory. It's not the right theory. >> For me, expectations has been really >> For me, expectations has been really >> For me, expectations has been really huge. just having realistic expectations huge. just having realistic expectations huge. just having realistic expectations because before because before because before 2020 again I had this very 2020 again I had this very 2020 again I had this very sort of utopian vision of the church sort of utopian vision of the church sort of utopian vision of the church where you know we all do life together where you know we all do life together where you know we all do life together and we all know what's going on in one and we all know what's going on in one and we all know what's going on in one another's lives and we are going to be another's lives and we are going to be another's lives and we are going to be together forever. I think that was sort together forever. I think that was sort together forever. I think that was sort of my vision of the church and I have of my vision of the church and I have of my vision of the church and I have been disabused of that vision in a been disabused of that vision in a been disabused of that vision in a number of different ways. But my number of different ways. But my number of different ways. But my expectations expectations expectations because my expectations were not because my expectations were not because my expectations were not congruent with reality. It really set me congruent with reality. It really set me congruent with reality. It really set me up for a lot of heartache and adjusting up for a lot of heartache and adjusting up for a lot of heartache and adjusting my expectations to reality. Not in a my expectations to reality. Not in a my expectations to reality. Not in a cynical way, but but as I just said that cynical way, but but as I just said that cynical way, but but as I just said that these are human beings. They are not these are human beings. They are not these are human beings. They are not Jesus. And so if I am expecting them to Jesus. And so if I am expecting them to Jesus. And so if I am expecting them to be there for me in the way that only be there for me in the way that only be there for me in the way that only Jesus can be there for me, then I am Jesus can be there for me, then I am Jesus can be there for me, then I am setting them up to fail and myself to be setting them up to fail and myself to be setting them up to fail and myself to be disappointed. And so adjusting my disappointed. And so adjusting my disappointed. And so adjusting my expectations for me personally, that has expectations for me personally, that has expectations for me personally, that has been half the battle of just having been half the battle of just having been half the battle of just having those humansized expectations for people those humansized expectations for people those humansized expectations for people who I also know to be wise and people who I also know to be wise and people who I also know to be wise and people who submit their lives to scripture and who submit their lives to scripture and who submit their lives to scripture and who are God-honoring.

who are God-honoring. who are God-honoring. That has been really helpful for me. That has been really helpful for me. That has been really helpful for me. >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my 2026 church trends. Hey, as you head 2026 church trends. Hey, as you head 2026 church trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you into 2026, what cultural shifts do you into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church need to keep an eye on as a church need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big leader? I mean, it's a really big leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down question, right? You got your head down question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, trying to do the work from day to day, trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, but there's some big stuff happening, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it right? You and I both know how easy it right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to is to get caught up into the week to is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind, and you know, Sunday after Sunday grind, and you know, Sunday after Sunday grind, and you just miss what's really going on in the just miss what's really going on in the just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release culture. That's why every year I release culture. That's why every year I release my annual church trends report, and it's my annual church trends report, and it's my annual church trends report, and it's to help you see what's next and to lead to help you see what's next and to lead to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church, are shaping the future of the church, are shaping the future of the church, and we're seeing Gen Z's surprising and we're seeing Gen Z's surprising and we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few people expected two years ago. There's a people expected two years ago. There's a people expected two years ago. There's a new boldness and evangelism I'm going to new boldness and evangelism I'm going to new boldness and evangelism I'm going to be talking about. And maybe the most be talking about. And maybe the most be talking about. And maybe the most concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it.

important and what you can do about it. important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 church You'll not only get the full 2026 church You'll not only get the full 2026 church trends report and the leader guide, but trends report and the leader guide, but trends report and the leader guide, but also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to to access it, head on over to to access it, head on over to 2026urch.com 2026urch.com 2026urch.com for free access. Once you've signed up, for free access. Once you've signed up, for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything you'll be in the loop for everything you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 church trends report. related to my 2026 church trends report. related to my 2026 church trends report. Again, it's all free. So, just click the Again, it's all free. So, just click the Again, it's all free. So, just click the link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode or visit 2026urch or visit 2026urch or visit 2026urch trends.com. The future of the church is trends.com. The future of the church is trends.com. The future of the church is still bright, especially for leaders who still bright, especially for leaders who still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. see it clearly and who respond wisely. see it clearly and who respond wisely. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Igniter Media. So, let's be honest, Igniter Media. So, let's be honest, Igniter Media. So, let's be honest, keeping your church's visuals and keeping your church's visuals and keeping your church's visuals and communications fresh week after week, communications fresh week after week, communications fresh week after week, that's tough work, right? And that's that's tough work, right? And that's that's tough work, right? And that's where Igniter Media comes in. Igniter where Igniter Media comes in. Igniter where Igniter Media comes in. Igniter has a robust library of ready-made has a robust library of ready-made has a robust library of ready-made church media from sermon videos to church media from sermon videos to church media from sermon videos to beautifully designed backgrounds that beautifully designed backgrounds that beautifully designed backgrounds that work seamlessly in all church work seamlessly in all church work seamlessly in all church presentation software applications. So presentation software applications. So presentation software applications. So whether you're a big church with a whether you're a big church with a whether you're a big church with a designed staff or a small church with designed staff or a small church with designed staff or a small church with not a lot of budget, Igniter's got you not a lot of budget, Igniter's got you not a lot of budget, Igniter's got you covered. And for my listeners, Igniter covered. And for my listeners, Igniter covered. And for my listeners, Igniter is offering an exclusive discount on any is offering an exclusive discount on any is offering an exclusive discount on any of their memberships. Plus, they're of their memberships. Plus, they're of their memberships. Plus, they're giving you a free exclusive sermon giving you a free exclusive sermon giving you a free exclusive sermon series package valued at $330, which series package valued at $330, which series package valued at $330, which includes a complimentary sermon bumper, includes a complimentary sermon bumper, includes a complimentary sermon bumper, title graphics, worship backgrounds,

title graphics, worship backgrounds, title graphics, worship backgrounds, social graphics, Canva templates, and a social graphics, Canva templates, and a social graphics, Canva templates, and a proresenter theme. Check it out at proresenter theme. Check it out at proresenter theme. Check it out at ignitermedia.com/carry. ignitermedia.com/carry. ignitermedia.com/carry. That's ignitermedia.com/carry. Oh, Carrie. [laughter] Oh, Carrie. [laughter] >> I'm an idealist, too. And I mean, I got >> I'm an idealist, too. And I mean, I got >> I'm an idealist, too. And I mean, I got into law like gonna set the world on into law like gonna set the world on into law like gonna set the world on fire ministry. It's like, come on. And fire ministry. It's like, come on. And fire ministry. It's like, come on. And we've all been there. we've all been there. we've all been there. >> So, >> So, >> So, you know, I feel like we're talking you know, I feel like we're talking you know, I feel like we're talking about 2020 a lot for being 2025, but um about 2020 a lot for being 2025, but um about 2020 a lot for being 2025, but um >> trauma runs deep, man. [laughter] >> trauma runs deep, man. [laughter] >> trauma runs deep, man. [laughter] So, I thought going into 2020 So, I thought going into 2020 So, I thought going into 2020 that if I just searched scripture and that if I just searched scripture and that if I just searched scripture and and another person did too, if we came and another person did too, if we came and another person did too, if we came together around scripture, if we could together around scripture, if we could together around scripture, if we could see how one another arrived at our see how one another arrived at our see how one another arrived at our position through scripture, position through scripture, position through scripture, theologically, whatever it is, that even theologically, whatever it is, that even theologically, whatever it is, that even if we disagreed, that we could still if we disagreed, that we could still if we disagreed, that we could still come together.

come together. come together. And what I learned in 2020 is that is on And what I learned in 2020 is that is on And what I learned in 2020 is that is on this side of eternity this side of eternity this side of eternity just not always true. just not always true. just not always true. And one of the things that I I learned And one of the things that I I learned And one of the things that I I learned was I I would think that if I just could was I I would think that if I just could was I I would think that if I just could get what was in my brain into their get what was in my brain into their get what was in my brain into their brain, like I just need to explain it a brain, like I just need to explain it a brain, like I just need to explain it a different way. Like if I just showed different way. Like if I just showed different way. Like if I just showed them this passage or this theological them this passage or this theological them this passage or this theological concept or this expert or this wise concept or this expert or this wise concept or this expert or this wise counselor that I that I sought, if I counselor that I that I sought, if I counselor that I that I sought, if I could just get what was in my brain into could just get what was in my brain into could just get what was in my brain into their brain, then I could move them their brain, then I could move them their brain, then I could move them toward me. And very often when I try to toward me. And very often when I try to toward me. And very often when I try to do that, what happened was really the do that, what happened was really the do that, what happened was really the opposite. Rather than moving them toward opposite. Rather than moving them toward opposite. Rather than moving them toward me, I ended up pushing them away. And so me, I ended up pushing them away. And so me, I ended up pushing them away. And so that was one of the things that that was one of the things that that was one of the things that definitely shattered my understanding of definitely shattered my understanding of definitely shattered my understanding of community. And then the other I've community. And then the other I've community. And then the other I've already named was this idea because already named was this idea because already named was this idea because sometimes people leave not because sometimes people leave not because sometimes people leave not because they're upset with you. Sometimes people they're upset with you. Sometimes people they're upset with you. Sometimes people leave just because you don't have a leave just because you don't have a leave just because you don't have a program that their family needs, you program that their family needs, you program that their family needs, you know, whatever that is. And that that know, whatever that is. And that that know, whatever that is. And that that isn't necessarily a bad reason, but it isn't necessarily a bad reason, but it isn't necessarily a bad reason, but it is still very painful when you have done is still very painful when you have done is still very painful when you have done life together.

life together. life together. >> And so that also for me was eyeopening >> And so that also for me was eyeopening >> And so that also for me was eyeopening that I thought these are people that we that I thought these are people that we that I thought these are people that we are going to be in it together for the are going to be in it together for the are going to be in it together for the long haul. and realizing, no, in fact, long haul. and realizing, no, in fact, long haul. and realizing, no, in fact, some of these people that I love and some of these people that I love and some of these people that I love and that I have invested myself in are also that I have invested myself in are also that I have invested myself in are also going to deliver me some of the greatest going to deliver me some of the greatest going to deliver me some of the greatest heartache of my life. And that is heartache of my life. And that is heartache of my life. And that is what makes ministry so difficult and and what makes ministry so difficult and and what makes ministry so difficult and and so painful. so painful. so painful. and is also and is also and is also the shocking thing about it is that I the shocking thing about it is that I the shocking thing about it is that I had to learn that instead of it being had to learn that instead of it being had to learn that instead of it being evident to me that that is what I signed evident to me that that is what I signed evident to me that that is what I signed up for in the first place because that's up for in the first place because that's up for in the first place because that's what it means to follow Jesus. what it means to follow Jesus. what it means to follow Jesus. So I resented for a very long time So I resented for a very long time So I resented for a very long time something that was plain as day in the something that was plain as day in the something that was plain as day in the gospels. gospels. gospels. >> But you didn't quit. You haven't quit. M >> But you didn't quit. You haven't quit. M >> But you didn't quit. You haven't quit. M >> you talked about in adjust adjusting >> you talked about in adjust adjusting >> you talked about in adjust adjusting your expectations of people. So there's your expectations of people. So there's your expectations of people. So there's a new person who comes to your church a new person who comes to your church a new person who comes to your church this coming Sunday. They seem awesome.

this coming Sunday. They seem awesome. this coming Sunday. They seem awesome. You check out the resume. It's amazing. You check out the resume. It's amazing. You check out the resume. It's amazing. You're like, "Whoa, I think we could You're like, "Whoa, I think we could You're like, "Whoa, I think we could even be friends." Like, you know, even be friends." Like, you know, even be friends." Like, you know, there's just that chemistry that you're there's just that chemistry that you're there's just that chemistry that you're like, like I saw one of our former like, like I saw one of our former like, like I saw one of our former elders and he had moved away, but he was elders and he had moved away, but he was elders and he had moved away, but he was back in town. I mean when I gave him a back in town. I mean when I gave him a back in town. I mean when I gave him a hug it was like like just bring it in hug it was like like just bring it in hug it was like like just bring it in like you know that kind of a friendship. like you know that kind of a friendship. like you know that kind of a friendship. What What What are your expectations now? >> I think my hands are >> I think my hands are much more open I would say like instead much more open I would say like instead much more open I would say like instead of just running ahead and saying this is of just running ahead and saying this is of just running ahead and saying this is someone that I want to grab on to and someone that I want to grab on to and someone that I want to grab on to and hold on to tight for the rest of my hold on to tight for the rest of my hold on to tight for the rest of my life. I think I just have a much more life. I think I just have a much more life. I think I just have a much more open hands about what our story is going open hands about what our story is going open hands about what our story is going to be. I think I'm a lot slower to write to be. I think I'm a lot slower to write to be. I think I'm a lot slower to write that story as well. I am definitely that story as well. I am definitely that story as well. I am definitely realizing that some people come into our realizing that some people come into our realizing that some people come into our lives lives lives for seasons and then go back out and and for seasons and then go back out and and for seasons and then go back out and and one of the things that also really one of the things that also really one of the things that also really helped me.

helped me. helped me. So, there was an a lot of people that I So, there was an a lot of people that I So, there was an a lot of people that I would look back on and I would put them would look back on and I would put them would look back on and I would put them in the category of we had a friendship in the category of we had a friendship in the category of we had a friendship breakup breakup breakup and I don't know if if this is like a and I don't know if if this is like a and I don't know if if this is like a girl thing, if this if guys also think girl thing, if this if guys also think girl thing, if this if guys also think in those terms. I think in those terms in those terms. I think in those terms in those terms. I think in those terms where where where >> I think my wife would think in those >> I think my wife would think in those >> I think my wife would think in those terms. I think I didn't we had a terms. I think I didn't we had a terms. I think I didn't we had a friendship breakup and I sort of filed friendship breakup and I sort of filed friendship breakup and I sort of filed that away as as that friendship ended. that away as as that friendship ended. that away as as that friendship ended. And one thing that really helped me was And one thing that really helped me was And one thing that really helped me was the concept of I'm trying to remember the concept of I'm trying to remember the concept of I'm trying to remember the name of it where you can only have the name of it where you can only have the name of it where you can only have like a certain number of people that are like a certain number of people that are like a certain number of people that are intimate with you. intimate with you. intimate with you. >> Is that Dunar's number three? >> Is that Dunar's number three? >> Is that Dunar's number three? >> Yeah. Three to five. >> Yeah. Three to five. >> Yeah. Three to five. >> Yes. Dunar's number. So this theory that >> Yes. Dunar's number. So this theory that >> Yes. Dunar's number. So this theory that just time in the day, you can only have just time in the day, you can only have just time in the day, you can only have a very small number of people who you a very small number of people who you a very small number of people who you are very very close to and then you are very very close to and then you are very very close to and then you widen that net out a little bit to a widen that net out a little bit to a widen that net out a little bit to a slightly larger like a dozen people that slightly larger like a dozen people that slightly larger like a dozen people that you see more regularly. you see more regularly. you see more regularly. >> And then as you just widen that number >> And then as you just widen that number >> And then as you just widen that number out further and further, they are going out further and further, they are going out further and further, they are going to be lower and lower touches, you know, to be lower and lower touches, you know, to be lower and lower touches, you know, in terms of how much time they get in in terms of how much time they get in in terms of how much time they get in your life, how much you see them, what your life, how much you see them, what your life, how much you see them, what your relationship is.

your relationship is. your relationship is. And what I realized with a lot of these And what I realized with a lot of these And what I realized with a lot of these friendships that I had categorized as friendships that I had categorized as friendships that I had categorized as friendship breakups, that actually isn't friendship breakups, that actually isn't friendship breakups, that actually isn't what happened. They had just moved from what happened. They had just moved from what happened. They had just moved from one category to another where they had one category to another where they had one category to another where they had been in that kind of inner circle and been in that kind of inner circle and been in that kind of inner circle and then they had moved to a slightly more then they had moved to a slightly more then they had moved to a slightly more outer circle. That didn't mean outer circle. That didn't mean outer circle. That didn't mean necessarily that the friendship was necessarily that the friendship was necessarily that the friendship was over. It just meant that it had changed. over. It just meant that it had changed. over. It just meant that it had changed. And that was also very helpful for me And that was also very helpful for me And that was also very helpful for me because I think the way that we tell because I think the way that we tell because I think the way that we tell these stories also shapes our experience these stories also shapes our experience these stories also shapes our experience of them. [snorts] And so if you're of them. [snorts] And so if you're of them. [snorts] And so if you're telling a story, this person abandoned telling a story, this person abandoned telling a story, this person abandoned me, this person, you know, misunderstood me, this person, you know, misunderstood me, this person, you know, misunderstood me, whatever it is, that is how you're me, whatever it is, that is how you're me, whatever it is, that is how you're going to experience it emotionally. And going to experience it emotionally. And going to experience it emotionally. And so for me to say, okay, maybe that so for me to say, okay, maybe that so for me to say, okay, maybe that friendship didn't end, maybe they didn't friendship didn't end, maybe they didn't friendship didn't end, maybe they didn't reject me, maybe the friendship just reject me, maybe the friendship just reject me, maybe the friendship just changed, that was also a helpful tool changed, that was also a helpful tool changed, that was also a helpful tool for me. for me. for me. How do you keep your heart fully How do you keep your heart fully How do you keep your heart fully engaged? You mentioned growing cynical engaged? You mentioned growing cynical engaged? You mentioned growing cynical and this has been like a I've written and this has been like a I've written and this has been like a I've written about this like it's been a lifelong about this like it's been a lifelong about this like it's been a lifelong quest for me to make sure at this age quest for me to make sure at this age quest for me to make sure at this age and at this stage my heart is open.

and at this stage my heart is open. and at this stage my heart is open. [snorts] It's not jaded. It hopes it [snorts] It's not jaded. It hopes it [snorts] It's not jaded. It hopes it believes. It trusts. believes. It trusts. believes. It trusts. I'm picking up that you've done that. I'm picking up that you've done that. I'm picking up that you've done that. How how do you keep your heart open at How how do you keep your heart open at How how do you keep your heart open at this stage? this stage? this stage? It's still it's still a struggle, but I It's still it's still a struggle, but I It's still it's still a struggle, but I already mentioned the forgiveness already mentioned the forgiveness already mentioned the forgiveness practice has been really helpful for me. practice has been really helpful for me. practice has been really helpful for me. Another practice, because I mentioned Another practice, because I mentioned Another practice, because I mentioned there's there's sort of two ways that we there's there's sort of two ways that we there's there's sort of two ways that we self-protect. One is through this self-protect. One is through this self-protect. One is through this hardening of ourselves and I think hardening of ourselves and I think hardening of ourselves and I think forgiveness is one way that we resist forgiveness is one way that we resist forgiveness is one way that we resist that but the other way is just escapism that but the other way is just escapism that but the other way is just escapism where you don't even realize and and I where you don't even realize and and I where you don't even realize and and I think this is a temptation think this is a temptation think this is a temptation for Christians because for Christians because for Christians because we will not even realize we are in pain we will not even realize we are in pain we will not even realize we are in pain like we are so quick to say I'm doing like we are so quick to say I'm doing like we are so quick to say I'm doing great I'm doing great I'm doing fine great I'm doing great I'm doing fine great I'm doing great I'm doing fine like it's not a big Well, um, you know, like it's not a big Well, um, you know, like it's not a big Well, um, you know, it's it's fine. They left the church, it's it's fine. They left the church, it's it's fine. They left the church, whatever. You know, I'm I'm fine. And I whatever. You know, I'm I'm fine. And I whatever. You know, I'm I'm fine. And I don't think we sometimes realize we're don't think we sometimes realize we're don't think we sometimes realize we're not fine until we've already kind of not fine until we've already kind of not fine until we've already kind of crashed out. But for me, the antidote to crashed out. But for me, the antidote to crashed out. But for me, the antidote to that escapism has been a regular that escapism has been a regular that escapism has been a regular practice of solitude.

practice of solitude. practice of solitude. And by solitude, I don't mean like going And by solitude, I don't mean like going And by solitude, I don't mean like going away to the mountains for a weekend, away to the mountains for a weekend, away to the mountains for a weekend, even though that is one way that you can even though that is one way that you can even though that is one way that you can do it. But I realized, no, I actually do it. But I realized, no, I actually do it. But I realized, no, I actually need throughout my day. [laughter] I need throughout my day. [laughter] I need throughout my day. [laughter] I need these these oases where I can come need these these oases where I can come need these these oases where I can come before God in silence and quiet and say, before God in silence and quiet and say, before God in silence and quiet and say, "Hey, like this is what is going on with "Hey, like this is what is going on with "Hey, like this is what is going on with me." And allow him to search my heart me." And allow him to search my heart me." And allow him to search my heart and help me to see like what am I and help me to see like what am I and help me to see like what am I feeling in this moment? And to know that feeling in this moment? And to know that feeling in this moment? And to know that that is the opposite of escapism, that that is the opposite of escapism, that that is the opposite of escapism, that solitude is how we confront what is solitude is how we confront what is solitude is how we confront what is actually going on inside of our hearts. actually going on inside of our hearts. actually going on inside of our hearts. And so solitude and forgiveness along And so solitude and forgiveness along And so solitude and forgiveness along with community have been everything for with community have been everything for with community have been everything for me. me. me. >> What does escapism look like for you? >> So this is really embarrassing. >> So this is really embarrassing. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. Uh, so I am a very big Disney girl and I Uh, so I am a very big Disney girl and I Uh, so I am a very big Disney girl and I love Disney. Yeah, you follow me on love Disney. Yeah, you follow me on love Disney. Yeah, you follow me on Instagram, you know this about me. I Instagram, you know this about me. I Instagram, you know this about me. I love Disney. I was just at Disney. I was love Disney. I was just at Disney. I was love Disney. I was just at Disney. I was speaking in Orlando. I went to Disney speaking in Orlando. I went to Disney speaking in Orlando. I went to Disney with my 10-year-old. So, I love Disney.

with my 10-year-old. So, I love Disney. with my 10-year-old. So, I love Disney. And one of the things that I do as an And one of the things that I do as an And one of the things that I do as an expression of that love is I listen to expression of that love is I listen to expression of that love is I listen to Disney podcasts. [laughter] I told [clears throat] you this was I told [clears throat] you this was embarrassing. So, I'm just being embarrassing. So, I'm just being embarrassing. So, I'm just being transparent here with you, Carrie. So, I transparent here with you, Carrie. So, I transparent here with you, Carrie. So, I love listening to stuff about the love listening to stuff about the love listening to stuff about the company, about the history, about the company, about the history, about the company, about the history, about the Imagineers, like the the innovation is Imagineers, like the the innovation is Imagineers, like the the innovation is like as a church planter really speaks like as a church planter really speaks like as a church planter really speaks to me honestly. So, I listen to Disney. to me honestly. So, I listen to Disney. to me honestly. So, I listen to Disney. There's a bunch of different Disney There's a bunch of different Disney There's a bunch of different Disney podcasts. And so, I listen to a bunch of podcasts. And so, I listen to a bunch of podcasts. And so, I listen to a bunch of Disney podcasts. And this is a very Disney podcasts. And this is a very Disney podcasts. And this is a very innocent thing. Like, there's who would innocent thing. Like, there's who would innocent thing. Like, there's who would who would judge me for listening to a who would judge me for listening to a who would judge me for listening to a Disney podcast? There's nothing wrong Disney podcast? There's nothing wrong Disney podcast? There's nothing wrong with that. However, one day with that. However, one day with that. However, one day my husband just stopped me and he goes, my husband just stopped me and he goes, my husband just stopped me and he goes, "How many Disney podcasts would you say "How many Disney podcasts would you say "How many Disney podcasts would you say you listen to?" [laughter] And I had to you listen to?" [laughter] And I had to you listen to?" [laughter] And I had to I had to tally it up and I said, I had to tally it up and I said, I had to tally it up and I said, "Probably about five.

"Probably about five. "Probably about five. And I'd never thought about it before. And I'd never thought about it before. And I'd never thought about it before. But then that same week, this is But then that same week, this is But then that same week, this is probably the Holy Spirit because that probably the Holy Spirit because that probably the Holy Spirit because that same week I was meeting with my same week I was meeting with my same week I was meeting with my spiritual director and processing spiritual director and processing spiritual director and processing something unrelated. But I realized something unrelated. But I realized something unrelated. But I realized there's nothing wrong with Disney there's nothing wrong with Disney there's nothing wrong with Disney podcast. There's nothing wrong with podcast. There's nothing wrong with podcast. There's nothing wrong with podcast generally. There's nothing wrong podcast generally. There's nothing wrong podcast generally. There's nothing wrong with listening to audiobooks, whatever with listening to audiobooks, whatever with listening to audiobooks, whatever it is, whatever your hobby. it is, whatever your hobby. it is, whatever your hobby. But I realized that I had started to But I realized that I had started to But I realized that I had started to run to that when I did not want to run to that when I did not want to run to that when I did not want to confront what was going on in my life. confront what was going on in my life. confront what was going on in my life. If something painful was happening at If something painful was happening at If something painful was happening at church, I would get in my van instead of church, I would get in my van instead of church, I would get in my van instead of just sitting there in silence and taking just sitting there in silence and taking just sitting there in silence and taking a moment to pray and process. I would a moment to pray and process. I would a moment to pray and process. I would just turn on a podcast and I would just just turn on a podcast and I would just just turn on a podcast and I would just listen to that instead. And so that is listen to that instead. And so that is listen to that instead. And so that is one I share that story because escapism one I share that story because escapism one I share that story because escapism obviously can take really toxic forms obviously can take really toxic forms obviously can take really toxic forms and we need to be aware of that as well and we need to be aware of that as well and we need to be aware of that as well and to name for instance if you are and to name for instance if you are and to name for instance if you are finding that you are needing to have a finding that you are needing to have a finding that you are needing to have a glass of wine or a beer at the end of glass of wine or a beer at the end of glass of wine or a beer at the end of the night every day maybe that's a a the night every day maybe that's a a the night every day maybe that's a a yellow flag I would say but it doesn't yellow flag I would say but it doesn't yellow flag I would say but it doesn't have to be something like that it could have to be something like that it could have to be something like that it could actually be something really innocent actually be something really innocent actually be something really innocent that you are just using to run from what that you are just using to run from what that you are just using to run from what is going on inside of you and that was is going on inside of you and that was is going on inside of you and that was it for me.

it for me. it for me. >> No, I appreciate that confession. You >> No, I appreciate that confession. You >> No, I appreciate that confession. You know, it's interesting. I had a similar know, it's interesting. I had a similar know, it's interesting. I had a similar thing. I I really am probably thing. I I really am probably thing. I I really am probably undiagnosed OCD and ADD and I had found undiagnosed OCD and ADD and I had found undiagnosed OCD and ADD and I had found and it's better now, but like if and it's better now, but like if and it's better now, but like if anything was slightly out of order when anything was slightly out of order when anything was slightly out of order when I didn't want to confront something, I I didn't want to confront something, I I didn't want to confront something, I would just go and like blow the leaves would just go and like blow the leaves would just go and like blow the leaves off the yard or cut the grass when it off the yard or cut the grass when it off the yard or cut the grass when it didn't need to be cut or that kind of didn't need to be cut or that kind of didn't need to be cut or that kind of thing. And you know, now I'm much better thing. And you know, now I'm much better thing. And you know, now I'm much better living in the tension. It's still super living in the tension. It's still super living in the tension. It's still super neat, but it was like a form of escapism neat, but it was like a form of escapism neat, but it was like a form of escapism for me or like not dealing with the for me or like not dealing with the for me or like not dealing with the issue. And often it was a barrier issue. And often it was a barrier issue. And often it was a barrier between my wife and I. She's like, "Why between my wife and I. She's like, "Why between my wife and I. She's like, "Why don't you just talk about it?" And I'm don't you just talk about it?" And I'm don't you just talk about it?" And I'm like, "No, I got to go." Blah blah blah, like, "No, I got to go." Blah blah blah, like, "No, I got to go." Blah blah blah, headphones on, you know, let's go do headphones on, you know, let's go do headphones on, you know, let's go do some work outside. And I think we all some work outside. And I think we all some work outside. And I think we all have and hopefully you choose a a a have and hopefully you choose a a a have and hopefully you choose a a a better form than alcohol or drugs or better form than alcohol or drugs or better form than alcohol or drugs or that kind of thing or sex. But um yeah, that kind of thing or sex. But um yeah, that kind of thing or sex. But um yeah, it's still a problem, right? And I think it's still a problem, right? And I think it's still a problem, right? And I think we're all there. And you know, there we're all there. And you know, there we're all there. And you know, there there are very few pastors who've been there are very few pastors who've been there are very few pastors who've been at it for more than a few years who at it for more than a few years who at it for more than a few years who haven't had some kind of escapist haven't had some kind of escapist haven't had some kind of escapist fantasy about some other job that they fantasy about some other job that they fantasy about some other job that they could do or career they could have or could do or career they could have or could do or career they could have or life they could have to escape the life they could have to escape the life they could have to escape the pressures. So, I appreciate you saying pressures. So, I appreciate you saying pressures. So, I appreciate you saying that.

that. that. What are some of the unique tensions What are some of the unique tensions What are some of the unique tensions because you co-lead with your husband. because you co-lead with your husband. because you co-lead with your husband. Um, so that's a whole other level Um, so that's a whole other level Um, so that's a whole other level [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] of commitment to the gospel because the of commitment to the gospel because the of commitment to the gospel because the whole family is involved. So what what whole family is involved. So what what whole family is involved. So what what what are you learning about co-pastoring what are you learning about co-pastoring what are you learning about co-pastoring with Ike, your husband? with Ike, your husband? with Ike, your husband? It has been such a learning curve for us It has been such a learning curve for us It has been such a learning curve for us because we don't know many other couples because we don't know many other couples because we don't know many other couples who are truly leading together who are truly leading together who are truly leading together >> where someone isn't the nominal figure. >> where someone isn't the nominal figure. >> where someone isn't the nominal figure. Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Right. And even among the couples >> Right. Right. And even among the couples >> Right. Right. And even among the couples that we do have relationship with, it that we do have relationship with, it that we do have relationship with, it sort of shakes out differently depending sort of shakes out differently depending sort of shakes out differently depending on the couple. I I think one of the on the couple. I I think one of the on the couple. I I think one of the things I've been searching for is things I've been searching for is things I've been searching for is universal principles that apply to all universal principles that apply to all universal principles that apply to all couples and we are sort of having to couples and we are sort of having to couples and we are sort of having to figure them out on the fly a little bit figure them out on the fly a little bit figure them out on the fly a little bit because I'll meet with a married couple because I'll meet with a married couple because I'll meet with a married couple and ask okay how what are your lanes and ask okay how what are your lanes and ask okay how what are your lanes like how how have you figured out like like how how have you figured out like like how how have you figured out like what you do and the other one does and what you do and the other one does and what you do and the other one does and very often those don't map on to me and very often those don't map on to me and very often those don't map on to me and Ike very neatly and so that has been Ike very neatly and so that has been Ike very neatly and so that has been really tricky really tricky really tricky But the one thing that I I will say that But the one thing that I I will say that But the one thing that I I will say that I have learned that I believe in the I have learned that I believe in the I have learned that I believe in the core of my bones core of my bones core of my bones is that as important as the work is that is that as important as the work is that is that as important as the work is that we have been called to as much as we we have been called to as much as we we have been called to as much as we love leading a church together is that love leading a church together is that love leading a church together is that our marriage at the end of the day is

our marriage at the end of the day is our marriage at the end of the day is always more important than our ministry. always more important than our ministry. always more important than our ministry. And one of the ways I first sort of And one of the ways I first sort of And one of the ways I first sort of found my way to this is early on found my way to this is early on found my way to this is early on probably the first year or so when we probably the first year or so when we probably the first year or so when we were leading together, I would do this were leading together, I would do this were leading together, I would do this thing where I would be in a conversation thing where I would be in a conversation thing where I would be in a conversation with my husband and I would be thinking, with my husband and I would be thinking, with my husband and I would be thinking, "Okay, does he need me to have on my "Okay, does he need me to have on my "Okay, does he need me to have on my wife hat right now or does he need me to wife hat right now or does he need me to wife hat right now or does he need me to have on my pastor hat, my coworker hat?" have on my pastor hat, my coworker hat?" have on my pastor hat, my coworker hat?" And so negotiating like which one am I And so negotiating like which one am I And so negotiating like which one am I in this situation? And I had this moment in this situation? And I had this moment in this situation? And I had this moment where I realized I would never do that where I realized I would never do that where I realized I would never do that with my children. You know, I would with my children. You know, I would with my children. You know, I would never say which hat do they need me to never say which hat do they need me to never say which hat do they need me to have on right now, the mom hat or the have on right now, the mom hat or the have on right now, the mom hat or the pastor hat? Like I'm only ever their pastor hat? Like I'm only ever their pastor hat? Like I'm only ever their mom. And so I realized thankfully within mom. And so I realized thankfully within mom. And so I realized thankfully within the first year or so that I only ever the first year or so that I only ever the first year or so that I only ever have the wife hat with with my husband. have the wife hat with with my husband. have the wife hat with with my husband. I mean sometimes we are working I mean sometimes we are working I mean sometimes we are working alongside one another but at the end of alongside one another but at the end of alongside one another but at the end of the day anyone can lead our church but I the day anyone can lead our church but I the day anyone can lead our church but I want to be my husband's only wife want to be my husband's only wife want to be my husband's only wife [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and just in terms of you know we can do and just in terms of you know we can do and just in terms of you know we can do we can make mistakes at church we we can we can make mistakes at church we we can we can make mistakes at church we we can fail in some ways without it shaking fail in some ways without it shaking fail in some ways without it shaking people's own faith their their own faith people's own faith their their own faith people's own faith their their own faith foundation and having these ripple foundation and having these ripple foundation and having these ripple effects for the rest of their lives.

effects for the rest of their lives. effects for the rest of their lives. But if we don't take seriously our But if we don't take seriously our But if we don't take seriously our marriage and our marriage fails because marriage and our marriage fails because marriage and our marriage fails because of the ways that it is entwined with of the ways that it is entwined with of the ways that it is entwined with church, that will shake the foundation church, that will shake the foundation church, that will shake the foundation of other people's faith and have ripple of other people's faith and have ripple of other people's faith and have ripple effects for the rest of their lives. And effects for the rest of their lives. And effects for the rest of their lives. And so prioritizing marriage has been one of so prioritizing marriage has been one of so prioritizing marriage has been one of my biggest takeaways I would say. You my biggest takeaways I would say. You my biggest takeaways I would say. You know what? That's a really interesting know what? That's a really interesting know what? That's a really interesting thought and you've articulated it in a thought and you've articulated it in a thought and you've articulated it in a way that completely resonates, but I way that completely resonates, but I way that completely resonates, but I haven't quite heard it. And I don't know haven't quite heard it. And I don't know haven't quite heard it. And I don't know that there's an answer to this with that there's an answer to this with that there's an answer to this with speculation, welcome, but you're right. speculation, welcome, but you're right. speculation, welcome, but you're right. If if you're just not a very good If if you're just not a very good If if you're just not a very good leader, and I'm not saying you aren't a leader, and I'm not saying you aren't a leader, and I'm not saying you aren't a very good leader. I'm sure you're a very good leader. I'm sure you're a very good leader. I'm sure you're a great leader. But let's say I'm not a great leader. But let's say I'm not a great leader. But let's say I'm not a great leader. People are going to come great leader. People are going to come great leader. People are going to come and go for my church and go, "It's okay. and go for my church and go, "It's okay. and go for my church and go, "It's okay. It was fine. It was fine. If I cheat on It was fine. It was fine. If I cheat on It was fine. It was fine. If I cheat on my wife or have an affair, that goes my wife or have an affair, that goes my wife or have an affair, that goes straight to people's hearts and they straight to people's hearts and they straight to people's hearts and they never forget it. And you know, the never forget it. And you know, the never forget it. And you know, the number of people I've talked to who are number of people I've talked to who are number of people I've talked to who are like, "Well, I was really enjoying like, "Well, I was really enjoying like, "Well, I was really enjoying church and then my pastor had an affair church and then my pastor had an affair church and then my pastor had an affair and then, you know, I left church for a and then, you know, I left church for a and then, you know, I left church for a long time." What is that? Like, why is long time." What is that? Like, why is long time." What is that? Like, why is that? Cuz I think you're on to something that? Cuz I think you're on to something that? Cuz I think you're on to something that's that's right. You can make some that's that's right. You can make some that's that's right. You can make some mistakes leading a church, but you blow mistakes leading a church, but you blow mistakes leading a church, but you blow that marriage up and it could wound that marriage up and it could wound that marriage up and it could wound people for for the rest of their lives.

>> I operate I I think that is tied to a >> I operate I I think that is tied to a much much much broader philosophy of ministry for me, broader philosophy of ministry for me, broader philosophy of ministry for me, which is that who you are is more which is that who you are is more which is that who you are is more important than what you do. important than what you do. important than what you do. >> Yeah. I I think that this is what >> Yeah. I I think that this is what >> Yeah. I I think that this is what scripture is talking about when it talks scripture is talking about when it talks scripture is talking about when it talks about guarding your heart for it is the about guarding your heart for it is the about guarding your heart for it is the wellspring of your your soul that that wellspring of your your soul that that wellspring of your your soul that that who you are who you are who you are >> everything else runs downstream of that. >> everything else runs downstream of that. >> everything else runs downstream of that. >> And so taking care of your integrity if >> And so taking care of your integrity if >> And so taking care of your integrity if that starts to corrode you can keep up that starts to corrode you can keep up that starts to corrode you can keep up that appearance for a time but that appearance for a time but that appearance for a time but eventually what is downstream of your eventually what is downstream of your eventually what is downstream of your integrity it it will not it will integrity it it will not it will integrity it it will not it will eventually overtake it. And when you are eventually overtake it. And when you are eventually overtake it. And when you are married and leading together, I think married and leading together, I think married and leading together, I think the same principle essentially applies the same principle essentially applies the same principle essentially applies that there is a sense in which the that there is a sense in which the that there is a sense in which the church is downstream of our marriage. church is downstream of our marriage. church is downstream of our marriage. And so if our marriage is healthy, then And so if our marriage is healthy, then And so if our marriage is healthy, then the church is going to be relatively the church is going to be relatively the church is going to be relatively unhealthy. But the church cannot be unhealthy. But the church cannot be unhealthy. But the church cannot be healthy. If our marriage is unhealthy, healthy. If our marriage is unhealthy, healthy. If our marriage is unhealthy, it cannot. And there there might be a it cannot. And there there might be a it cannot. And there there might be a little bit of a lag time there, but little bit of a lag time there, but little bit of a lag time there, but overall if our marriage is toxic, the overall if our marriage is toxic, the overall if our marriage is toxic, the church is going to become toxic. And so church is going to become toxic. And so church is going to become toxic. And so I think it's definitely tied to that I think it's definitely tied to that I think it's definitely tied to that that broader principle that who you are that broader principle that who you are that broader principle that who you are that that wellspring is more important that that wellspring is more important that that wellspring is more important than what you do.

than what you do. than what you do. >> So you have some young staff. You >> So you have some young staff. You >> So you have some young staff. You mentioned cynicism earlier, but you meet mentioned cynicism earlier, but you meet mentioned cynicism earlier, but you meet with a lot of young leaders like across with a lot of young leaders like across with a lot of young leaders like across the country and um I think we all see the country and um I think we all see the country and um I think we all see cynicism as a trend. I've always linked cynicism as a trend. I've always linked cynicism as a trend. I've always linked cynicism to knowledge because the cynicism to knowledge because the cynicism to knowledge because the scripture does, right? The more you scripture does, right? The more you scripture does, right? The more you know, the more cynical you get. When you know, the more cynical you get. When you know, the more cynical you get. When you were young, you were happy because you were young, you were happy because you were young, you were happy because you were dumb, right? You didn't know were dumb, right? You didn't know were dumb, right? You didn't know anything and now you know everything. anything and now you know everything. anything and now you know everything. You're like, "Oh, that's human nature. You're like, "Oh, that's human nature. You're like, "Oh, that's human nature. Wow. Now what?" So, when you work with Wow. Now what?" So, when you work with Wow. Now what?" So, when you work with younger leaders, younger pastors, um, younger leaders, younger pastors, um, younger leaders, younger pastors, um, what are you seeing and what are some what are you seeing and what are some what are you seeing and what are some course corrections you might give them? course corrections you might give them? course corrections you might give them? Mhm. So So one tension that I have been this is one tension that I have been this is one tension that I have been this is sort of adjacent to your question. It's sort of adjacent to your question. It's sort of adjacent to your question. It's not fully answering it but one one not fully answering it but one one not fully answering it but one one broader tension that I'm seeing broader tension that I'm seeing broader tension that I'm seeing >> is that we have done a really good job >> is that we have done a really good job >> is that we have done a really good job of of of teaching our leaders how to have teaching our leaders how to have teaching our leaders how to have boundaries. And that has actually helped boundaries. And that has actually helped boundaries. And that has actually helped a lot with that cynicism and that a lot with that cynicism and that a lot with that cynicism and that underlying bitterness because very often underlying bitterness because very often underlying bitterness because very often what happens is if you don't have what happens is if you don't have what happens is if you don't have boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, if you say yes to everything and then if you say yes to everything and then if you say yes to everything and then people walk over you is you start to people walk over you is you start to people walk over you is you start to resent them even though sometimes the resent them even though sometimes the resent them even though sometimes the reason they walked over you is because reason they walked over you is because reason they walked over you is because you didn't give them boundaries in the you didn't give them boundaries in the you didn't give them boundaries in the first place. M first place. M first place. M >> and so that's one way that that we have >> and so that's one way that that we have >> and so that's one way that that we have we have a robust culture of rest of of

we have a robust culture of rest of of we have a robust culture of rest of of Sabbath of sabbatical. We know what Sabbath of sabbatical. We know what Sabbath of sabbatical. We know what everyone else's Sabbath day is so that everyone else's Sabbath day is so that everyone else's Sabbath day is so that we can honor that and not contact them we can honor that and not contact them we can honor that and not contact them on their Sabbath day. So we talk a lot on their Sabbath day. So we talk a lot on their Sabbath day. So we talk a lot about the importance of having about the importance of having about the importance of having boundaries and and saying no. boundaries and and saying no. boundaries and and saying no. >> Before you go on, I want to drill down >> Before you go on, I want to drill down >> Before you go on, I want to drill down on that because this is a chronic issue on that because this is a chronic issue on that because this is a chronic issue >> for a lot of church leaders. Even if the >> for a lot of church leaders. Even if the >> for a lot of church leaders. Even if the senior pastor has boundaries, sometimes senior pastor has boundaries, sometimes senior pastor has boundaries, sometimes the staff doesn't. It's like you're the the staff doesn't. It's like you're the the staff doesn't. It's like you're the shock absorber. shock absorber. shock absorber. >> How do you train a church to observe >> How do you train a church to observe >> How do you train a church to observe that? Because theoretically, you know, that? Because theoretically, you know, that? Because theoretically, you know, you have 17 inboxes. People can DM you you have 17 inboxes. People can DM you you have 17 inboxes. People can DM you >> any time of the day or night. So, if >> any time of the day or night. So, if >> any time of the day or night. So, if you're a young staff member at your you're a young staff member at your you're a young staff member at your church, how do you make sure church, how do you make sure church, how do you make sure >> that those boundaries get observed by >> that those boundaries get observed by >> that those boundaries get observed by the congregation? So we have we try to the congregation? So we have we try to the congregation? So we have we try to communicate really clearly expectations communicate really clearly expectations communicate really clearly expectations around communication in terms of just around communication in terms of just around communication in terms of just timeliness and if you reach out to timeliness and if you reach out to timeliness and if you reach out to someone on staff you can expect to hear someone on staff you can expect to hear someone on staff you can expect to hear within this certain amount of time but within this certain amount of time but within this certain amount of time but if it is not an emergency then you if it is not an emergency then you if it is not an emergency then you cannot expect to necessarily hear from cannot expect to necessarily hear from cannot expect to necessarily hear from them if they are on if it's their day them if they are on if it's their day them if they are on if it's their day off essentially. And so I've really off essentially. And so I've really off essentially. And so I've really encouraged our staff to go ahead and encouraged our staff to go ahead and encouraged our staff to go ahead and preemptively especially with your team preemptively especially with your team preemptively especially with your team like anyone that you're leading like anyone that you're leading like anyone that you're leading preemptively let them know here are my preemptively let them know here are my preemptively let them know here are my expectations around communication. If it expectations around communication. If it expectations around communication. If it is urgent you can call me but otherwise is urgent you can call me but otherwise is urgent you can call me but otherwise if you text or message through Slack if you text or message through Slack if you text or message through Slack whatever it is that's going to be more whatever it is that's going to be more whatever it is that's going to be more of like a you have 24 hours to respond.

of like a you have 24 hours to respond. of like a you have 24 hours to respond. that is going to be more if that's that is going to be more if that's that is going to be more if that's during their day off. But just being during their day off. But just being during their day off. But just being clear around communication expectations clear around communication expectations clear around communication expectations and you know with with people in our our and you know with with people in our our and you know with with people in our our church I I think people generally if church I I think people generally if church I I think people generally if they're sending an email on the weekend they're sending an email on the weekend they're sending an email on the weekend people generally don't expect us to people generally don't expect us to people generally don't expect us to respond. We do a pretty good job of respond. We do a pretty good job of respond. We do a pretty good job of responding by Monday or Tuesday. And responding by Monday or Tuesday. And responding by Monday or Tuesday. And some of our staff even have like away some of our staff even have like away some of our staff even have like away messages on their email. So I I think messages on their email. So I I think messages on their email. So I I think just overcommunicating just overcommunicating just overcommunicating about expectations has been really about expectations has been really about expectations has been really helpful for that. helpful for that. helpful for that. >> Okay. No, that's super helpful because >> Okay. No, that's super helpful because >> Okay. No, that's super helpful because it seems to be a chronic problem in it seems to be a chronic problem in it seems to be a chronic problem in ministry. But continue with, you know, ministry. But continue with, you know, ministry. But continue with, you know, cynicism and trying to keep people's cynicism and trying to keep people's cynicism and trying to keep people's hearts. One of the things I'm seeing, hearts. One of the things I'm seeing, hearts. One of the things I'm seeing, and I actually don't see this quite as I and I actually don't see this quite as I and I actually don't see this quite as I I would say actually I don't really see I would say actually I don't really see I would say actually I don't really see this with my own staff, but something this with my own staff, but something this with my own staff, but something that I'm noticing that I'm noticing that I'm noticing more broadly with younger people because more broadly with younger people because more broadly with younger people because this this movement around Sabbath and this this movement around Sabbath and this this movement around Sabbath and boundaries is really gaining traction, boundaries is really gaining traction, boundaries is really gaining traction, which is wonderful. Like we should not which is wonderful. Like we should not which is wonderful. Like we should not be chewing through people and spitting be chewing through people and spitting be chewing through people and spitting them out. That should not be their them out. That should not be their them out. That should not be their experience. like we gauge the health of experience. like we gauge the health of experience. like we gauge the health of our church by the health of our staff.

our church by the health of our staff. our church by the health of our staff. That is our number one barometer. That is our number one barometer. That is our number one barometer. >> And so I'm delighted that we are >> And so I'm delighted that we are >> And so I'm delighted that we are equipping leaders to remember the equipping leaders to remember the equipping leaders to remember the command to observe Sabbath and that this command to observe Sabbath and that this command to observe Sabbath and that this is how you remember who is in charge is how you remember who is in charge is how you remember who is in charge here. That it is not you. That this here. That it is not you. That this here. That it is not you. That this ministry does not rise on and fall on ministry does not rise on and fall on ministry does not rise on and fall on your shoulders. It rises and falls on your shoulders. It rises and falls on your shoulders. It rises and falls on Jesus's. Jesus's. Jesus's. But I do wonder if we are seeing a But I do wonder if we are seeing a But I do wonder if we are seeing a little bit of an overcorrection little bit of an overcorrection little bit of an overcorrection where we now need to have a conversation where we now need to have a conversation where we now need to have a conversation around around around capacity capacity capacity and tenacity [laughter] and tenacity [laughter] and tenacity [laughter] >> and that we are actually >> and that we are actually >> and that we are actually >> far maybe. >> far maybe. >> far maybe. >> Yeah. that that we are in fact designed >> Yeah. that that we are in fact designed >> Yeah. that that we are in fact designed to have great capacity, to have great capacity, to have great capacity, but it just depends on what you have on but it just depends on what you have on but it just depends on what you have on your plate. You know, if you're putting your plate. You know, if you're putting your plate. You know, if you're putting a bunch of stuff on your plate that a bunch of stuff on your plate that a bunch of stuff on your plate that shouldn't be there, then you're not shouldn't be there, then you're not shouldn't be there, then you're not going to be as effective. But but that going to be as effective. But but that going to be as effective. But but that we actually, you know, this is why Paul we actually, you know, this is why Paul we actually, you know, this is why Paul uses these metaphors of training. And so uses these metaphors of training. And so uses these metaphors of training. And so I I see a little bit of a a a balance, I I see a little bit of a a a balance, I I see a little bit of a a a balance, kind of a counterbalance here where yes, kind of a counterbalance here where yes, kind of a counterbalance here where yes, we need to be equipping our staff from we need to be equipping our staff from we need to be equipping our staff from the top down, modeling healthy rhythms the top down, modeling healthy rhythms the top down, modeling healthy rhythms of rest, healthy boundaries, and at the of rest, healthy boundaries, and at the of rest, healthy boundaries, and at the same time helping them to grow their same time helping them to grow their same time helping them to grow their capacity, knowing that as a young capacity, knowing that as a young capacity, knowing that as a young person, your capacity actually like person, your capacity actually like person, your capacity actually like physically you can go on three hours of

physically you can go on three hours of physically you can go on three hours of sleep. But I think that a lot of young sleep. But I think that a lot of young sleep. But I think that a lot of young people have not learned how to maximize people have not learned how to maximize people have not learned how to maximize the capacity of their days. I think the capacity of their days. I think the capacity of their days. I think that's something that you learn and that's something that you learn and that's something that you learn and that's something that we as leaders also that's something that we as leaders also that's something that we as leaders also need to be teaching them how to steward. need to be teaching them how to steward. need to be teaching them how to steward. >> So you have quite the capacity because >> So you have quite the capacity because >> So you have quite the capacity because you're not just pastoring a local you're not just pastoring a local you're not just pastoring a local church. You have a podcast. You've church. You have a podcast. You've church. You have a podcast. You've written books. You speak more widely. written books. You speak more widely. written books. You speak more widely. And one of the things I've really And one of the things I've really And one of the things I've really appreciated about you is you speak into appreciated about you is you speak into appreciated about you is you speak into the culture. sometimes by what you say, the culture. sometimes by what you say, the culture. sometimes by what you say, sometimes by what you don't say. You're sometimes by what you don't say. You're sometimes by what you don't say. You're a really one of, you know, my favorite a really one of, you know, my favorite a really one of, you know, my favorite followers on social media. I think you followers on social media. I think you followers on social media. I think you do a very good job of trying to figure do a very good job of trying to figure do a very good job of trying to figure out what to say or not say in the out what to say or not say in the out what to say or not say in the moment. I'm sure you pay a price for moment. I'm sure you pay a price for moment. I'm sure you pay a price for that. How how do you determine that. How how do you determine that. How how do you determine which issues you're going to speak into? which issues you're going to speak into? which issues you're going to speak into? Because you already have like your Because you already have like your Because you already have like your church, right? You got to deal with your church, right? You got to deal with your church, right? You got to deal with your church. But how do you determine when church. But how do you determine when church. But how do you determine when something's happening in a cultural something's happening in a cultural something's happening in a cultural moment politically in Washington moment politically in Washington moment politically in Washington sociologically?

sociologically? sociologically? How do you determine when to speak and How do you determine when to speak and How do you determine when to speak and when not and then what to say? Mhm. when not and then what to say? Mhm. when not and then what to say? Mhm. So five years ago when we were walking So five years ago when we were walking So five years ago when we were walking through everything that was happening in through everything that was happening in through everything that was happening in our country, our country, our country, we learned very quickly that we were we learned very quickly that we were we learned very quickly that we were just reacting just reacting just reacting >> to everything that was in our culture. >> to everything that was in our culture. >> to everything that was in our culture. And that was very instructive for us And that was very instructive for us And that was very instructive for us because I realized I I never want to do because I realized I I never want to do because I realized I I never want to do that again. Like if I have I can't that again. Like if I have I can't that again. Like if I have I can't always know when something is going to always know when something is going to always know when something is going to happen, but I can know when there's an happen, but I can know when there's an happen, but I can know when there's an election cycle. There there are certain election cycle. There there are certain election cycle. There there are certain things that I can know that are things that I can know that are things that I can know that are >> you know what it's going to feel like at >> you know what it's going to feel like at >> you know what it's going to feel like at midterms and during a bigction midterms and during a bigction midterms and during a bigction >> divisive. And so it we just realized >> divisive. And so it we just realized >> divisive. And so it we just realized there were some things that we needed to there were some things that we needed to there were some things that we needed to proactively disciple our people in so proactively disciple our people in so proactively disciple our people in so that when that thing happened, they had that when that thing happened, they had that when that thing happened, they had already been formed for that moment already been formed for that moment already been formed for that moment instead of us scrambling to shepherd instead of us scrambling to shepherd instead of us scrambling to shepherd them through it. And so one of the them through it. And so one of the them through it. And so one of the things that we did, I guess it's been things that we did, I guess it's been things that we did, I guess it's been about a year and a half ago now, when we about a year and a half ago now, when we about a year and a half ago now, when we knew in the year leading up to the knew in the year leading up to the knew in the year leading up to the election, we went ahead and selected election, we went ahead and selected election, we went ahead and selected different books of the Bible that we different books of the Bible that we different books of the Bible that we wanted to walk through that we thought wanted to walk through that we thought wanted to walk through that we thought would form our people well. And one of would form our people well. And one of would form our people well. And one of those was actually Revelation, those was actually Revelation, those was actually Revelation, but not in the way that you think.

but not in the way that you think. but not in the way that you think. >> Not the apocalyptic side. Okay. Yeah. >> Not the apocalyptic side. Okay. Yeah. >> Not the apocalyptic side. Okay. Yeah. Let's create let's create some unity in Let's create let's create some unity in Let's create let's create some unity in the truth. Let's preach on antichrist. the truth. Let's preach on antichrist. the truth. Let's preach on antichrist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what we kept joking about >> Yeah. That's what we kept joking about >> Yeah. That's what we kept joking about every time we started the series. We'd every time we started the series. We'd every time we started the series. We'd be like, "And now this is the sermon be like, "And now this is the sermon be like, "And now this is the sermon where we reveal the Antichrist." No, we where we reveal the Antichrist." No, we where we reveal the Antichrist." No, we looked specifically at the seven letters looked specifically at the seven letters looked specifically at the seven letters to the seven churches because the to the seven churches because the to the seven churches because the context of that is so relevant where you context of that is so relevant where you context of that is so relevant where you have a lot of political strife that is have a lot of political strife that is have a lot of political strife that is the backdrop of these letters where you the backdrop of these letters where you the backdrop of these letters where you have people who are being oppressed, have people who are being oppressed, have people who are being oppressed, they are being persecuted, they are they are being persecuted, they are they are being persecuted, they are being martyed. Some of the churches that being martyed. Some of the churches that being martyed. Some of the churches that Jesus is addressing, they have literally Jesus is addressing, they have literally Jesus is addressing, they have literally had people in their church die. had people in their church die. had people in their church die. >> And what was so fascinating to me and >> And what was so fascinating to me and >> And what was so fascinating to me and and you really see this throughout most and you really see this throughout most and you really see this throughout most of the New Testament as well, that of the New Testament as well, that of the New Testament as well, that Jesus, he acknowledges that and and much Jesus, he acknowledges that and and much Jesus, he acknowledges that and and much of Revelation is is sort of pointing to of Revelation is is sort of pointing to of Revelation is is sort of pointing to there's this other level, the spiritual there's this other level, the spiritual there's this other level, the spiritual realm that is informing these things.

realm that is informing these things. realm that is informing these things. But overall the point of those letters But overall the point of those letters But overall the point of those letters was not and therefore you need to change was not and therefore you need to change was not and therefore you need to change the government, therefore you need to the government, therefore you need to the government, therefore you need to change the culture. Not don't hear me as change the culture. Not don't hear me as change the culture. Not don't hear me as saying that those things don't matter. saying that those things don't matter. saying that those things don't matter. >> But the the driving message again and >> But the the driving message again and >> But the the driving message again and again of those seven letters is that and again of those seven letters is that and again of those seven letters is that and this goes back to what I said earlier this goes back to what I said earlier this goes back to what I said earlier about who you are is more important than about who you are is more important than about who you are is more important than what you do. That your distinct identity what you do. That your distinct identity what you do. That your distinct identity as the people of God is your superpower. as the people of God is your superpower. as the people of God is your superpower. That is your greatest influence in That is your greatest influence in That is your greatest influence in culture is being this peculiar people, culture is being this peculiar people, culture is being this peculiar people, this distinct community, that you are this distinct community, that you are this distinct community, that you are the people of Jesus. And that I have the people of Jesus. And that I have the people of Jesus. And that I have returned to that again and again and returned to that again and again and returned to that again and again and again of recognizing the ways that it is again of recognizing the ways that it is again of recognizing the ways that it is tempting for us to sort of get in bed tempting for us to sort of get in bed tempting for us to sort of get in bed with culture in ways that we don't even with culture in ways that we don't even with culture in ways that we don't even realize and recognizing that as the realize and recognizing that as the realize and recognizing that as the existential threat. not some threat out existential threat. not some threat out existential threat. not some threat out there, but but how we live our lives, there, but but how we live our lives, there, but but how we live our lives, what our allegiances are. And so, all what our allegiances are. And so, all what our allegiances are. And so, all that to say, to answer your question, my that to say, to answer your question, my that to say, to answer your question, my my first priority is always my church my first priority is always my church my first priority is always my church community. And so, I am not going to be community. And so, I am not going to be community. And so, I am not going to be posting something that's going to be posting something that's going to be posting something that's going to be creating chaos in my own community that creating chaos in my own community that creating chaos in my own community that is going going to kick up all these is going going to kick up all these is going going to kick up all these questions where people don't understand.

questions where people don't understand. questions where people don't understand. And so that's going to guide how I And so that's going to guide how I And so that's going to guide how I engage online. But it also means my engage online. But it also means my engage online. But it also means my first priority is my church in terms of first priority is my church in terms of first priority is my church in terms of thinking what are the idols of the thinking what are the idols of the thinking what are the idols of the people in my church? What are the false people in my church? What are the false people in my church? What are the false allegiances of the people in my church? allegiances of the people in my church? allegiances of the people in my church? What are the false teachings that they What are the false teachings that they What are the false teachings that they are most tempted by? I want to be naming are most tempted by? I want to be naming are most tempted by? I want to be naming those things instead of pointing to those things instead of pointing to those things instead of pointing to something out there. But then more something out there. But then more something out there. But then more broadly online, broadly online, broadly online, it's a similar principle. I'm thinking it's a similar principle. I'm thinking it's a similar principle. I'm thinking who are the people that are listening to who are the people that are listening to who are the people that are listening to me online because not everyone is me online because not everyone is me online because not everyone is listening to me. I there's certain listening to me. I there's certain listening to me. I there's certain people that are listening to me, some people that are listening to me, some people that are listening to me, some people that are maybe on the fringe, but people that are maybe on the fringe, but people that are maybe on the fringe, but in terms of who I know reasonably well, in terms of who I know reasonably well, in terms of who I know reasonably well, they take what I say seriously, they they take what I say seriously, they they take what I say seriously, they give it weight. give it weight. give it weight. And those are the people that I am most And those are the people that I am most And those are the people that I am most concerned with shephering well. And so concerned with shephering well. And so concerned with shephering well. And so I'm not going to be stoking their I'm not going to be stoking their I'm not going to be stoking their self-righteousness by saying, "Aren't self-righteousness by saying, "Aren't self-righteousness by saying, "Aren't those people over there that we disagree those people over there that we disagree those people over there that we disagree with, aren't they so terrible?" No, I am with, aren't they so terrible?" No, I am with, aren't they so terrible?" No, I am much more concerned with the people who much more concerned with the people who much more concerned with the people who are following me, what are their idols?

are following me, what are their idols? are following me, what are their idols? How do they need to be corrected? And How do they need to be corrected? And How do they need to be corrected? And sometimes the question is also, how do sometimes the question is also, how do sometimes the question is also, how do they need to be consoled? But because they need to be consoled? But because they need to be consoled? But because who we are is more important than what who we are is more important than what who we are is more important than what we do. I see this discipling of we do. I see this discipling of we do. I see this discipling of self-righteousness where where we have self-righteousness where where we have self-righteousness where where we have amassed a a gathering of people who are amassed a a gathering of people who are amassed a a gathering of people who are following us because we are so good at following us because we are so good at following us because we are so good at dunking on other people. What that is is dunking on other people. What that is is dunking on other people. What that is is just discipling in self-righteousness. just discipling in self-righteousness. just discipling in self-righteousness. And if you want to think about the And if you want to think about the And if you want to think about the church as as a wellspring, church as as a wellspring, church as as a wellspring, once you put self-righteousness in once you put self-righteousness in once you put self-righteousness in there, it contaminates the well. It it there, it contaminates the well. It it there, it contaminates the well. It it just poisons the well. And so for me, I just poisons the well. And so for me, I just poisons the well. And so for me, I see self-righteousness as see self-righteousness as see self-righteousness as a a great peril for the church right a a great peril for the church right a a great peril for the church right now. And that doesn't mean now. And that doesn't mean now. And that doesn't mean truth doesn't matter. It doesn't mean truth doesn't matter. It doesn't mean truth doesn't matter. It doesn't mean not having conviction. It just means the not having conviction. It just means the not having conviction. It just means the posture with which I hold my conviction posture with which I hold my conviction posture with which I hold my conviction is going to be one of humility and is going to be one of humility and is going to be one of humility and soberly recognizing my own sin and soberly recognizing my own sin and soberly recognizing my own sin and propensity to selfdeceive.

propensity to selfdeceive. propensity to selfdeceive. >> I'm sure we've all found moments where >> I'm sure we've all found moments where >> I'm sure we've all found moments where we said something and maybe we breached we said something and maybe we breached we said something and maybe we breached our own standard. when you look back, our own standard. when you look back, our own standard. when you look back, you know, because I I think you do show you know, because I I think you do show you know, because I I think you do show good restraint. You're not the first to good restraint. You're not the first to good restraint. You're not the first to post usually on something. You think post usually on something. You think post usually on something. You think about it. I assume you pray about it. about it. I assume you pray about it. about it. I assume you pray about it. But there's probably been times where But there's probably been times where But there's probably been times where you've crossed your own line. I know you've crossed your own line. I know you've crossed your own line. I know I've done that once or twice where I'm I've done that once or twice where I'm I've done that once or twice where I'm like, "Oh, I shouldn't have said like, "Oh, I shouldn't have said like, "Oh, I shouldn't have said something or I said the wrong thing or something or I said the wrong thing or something or I said the wrong thing or whatever." whatever." whatever." How do you know in your own spirit that How do you know in your own spirit that How do you know in your own spirit that you're not being self-righteous? you're not being self-righteous? you're not being self-righteous? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> You know, my joke, my joke with my wife >> You know, my joke, my joke with my wife >> You know, my joke, my joke with my wife is, "My humility is so great. I think is, "My humility is so great. I think is, "My humility is so great. I think I'm the best at it." Like, you know, she I'm the best at it." Like, you know, she I'm the best at it." Like, you know, she always [laughter] laughs. So, yeah, she always [laughter] laughs. So, yeah, she always [laughter] laughs. So, yeah, she knows. knows. knows. >> A lot of this is wrestling with my own >> A lot of this is wrestling with my own >> A lot of this is wrestling with my own sin. You know, I think about sin. You know, I think about sin. You know, I think about >> Martin Luther King and how one of the >> Martin Luther King and how one of the >> Martin Luther King and how one of the things that he warned against was was things that he warned against was was things that he warned against was was hate and and how that cannot accomplish hate and and how that cannot accomplish hate and and how that cannot accomplish what we want to accomplish. And I just what we want to accomplish. And I just what we want to accomplish. And I just don't think someone can say that who has don't think someone can say that who has don't think someone can say that who has not himself wrestled with the not himself wrestled with the not himself wrestled with the temptations of his own hate. Mhm.

temptations of his own hate. Mhm. temptations of his own hate. Mhm. >> And I feel the same thing where I it's >> And I feel the same thing where I it's >> And I feel the same thing where I it's me. Like I'm naming my own idols. I I me. Like I'm naming my own idols. I I me. Like I'm naming my own idols. I I know what they are. I know the the know what they are. I know the the know what they are. I know the the cultural idols that I have a preference cultural idols that I have a preference cultural idols that I have a preference for. for. for. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that that is very much like how how >> And that that is very much like how how >> And that that is very much like how how I I guard what I'm saying is making sure I I guard what I'm saying is making sure I I guard what I'm saying is making sure I'm speaking from a place of honesty. I'm speaking from a place of honesty. I'm speaking from a place of honesty. Another one is am I being fair? you Another one is am I being fair? you Another one is am I being fair? you know, am I listening to people with know, am I listening to people with know, am I listening to people with different perspectives? And they would different perspectives? And they would different perspectives? And they would say, "This is a fair description of of say, "This is a fair description of of say, "This is a fair description of of what I believe." But then also, more what I believe." But then also, more what I believe." But then also, more importantly, importantly, importantly, I am someone that I I have friends I am someone that I I have friends I am someone that I I have friends across the spectrum, and if they reach across the spectrum, and if they reach across the spectrum, and if they reach out to me or most importantly, if out to me or most importantly, if out to me or most importantly, if someone in my church reaches out to me someone in my church reaches out to me someone in my church reaches out to me and says, "I don't understand what this and says, "I don't understand what this and says, "I don't understand what this meant. This this felt like you were meant. This this felt like you were meant. This this felt like you were saying this and it hurt me." whatever it saying this and it hurt me." whatever it saying this and it hurt me." whatever it is that I am going to be someone who is that I am going to be someone who is that I am going to be someone who listens to that instead of getting listens to that instead of getting listens to that instead of getting defensive and trying to spiritualize my defensive and trying to spiritualize my defensive and trying to spiritualize my own sin. So those are three. [laughter] own sin. So those are three. [laughter] own sin. So those are three. [laughter] >> How do you balance the risks of >> How do you balance the risks of >> How do you balance the risks of polarization with that call to speak polarization with that call to speak polarization with that call to speak truthfully?

truthfully? truthfully? >> I do listen >> I do listen >> I do listen more than I talk. more than I talk. more than I talk. I listen a lot. I have tried to I listen a lot. I have tried to I listen a lot. I have tried to curate my social media feed so that I am curate my social media feed so that I am curate my social media feed so that I am hearing from people a wide variety of hearing from people a wide variety of hearing from people a wide variety of voices and not necessarily the extremes, voices and not necessarily the extremes, voices and not necessarily the extremes, but but people who we see very but but people who we see very but but people who we see very differently, but I can still see differently, but I can still see differently, but I can still see you are someone who you love Jesus and you are someone who you love Jesus and you are someone who you love Jesus and you submit yourself to his word and you you submit yourself to his word and you you submit yourself to his word and you are trying to navigate this season are trying to navigate this season are trying to navigate this season sincerely and in a fear of the Lord. And sincerely and in a fear of the Lord. And sincerely and in a fear of the Lord. And even if we see differently, even if we see differently, even if we see differently, I can trust that about you and I still I can trust that about you and I still I can trust that about you and I still want to hear what you have to say. And want to hear what you have to say. And want to hear what you have to say. And so I try to make sure before I post that so I try to make sure before I post that so I try to make sure before I post that I am listening well. That's a huge I am listening well. That's a huge I am listening well. That's a huge principle for me. Do you find no names principle for me. Do you find no names principle for me. Do you find no names that sometimes you have to mute people that sometimes you have to mute people that sometimes you have to mute people who are not good for your mental health who are not good for your mental health who are not good for your mental health or mute organizations? I've done that.

or mute organizations? I've done that. or mute organizations? I've done that. Unfollowed mute. It's like this is not Unfollowed mute. It's like this is not Unfollowed mute. It's like this is not helping me. It's just getting me all helping me. It's just getting me all helping me. It's just getting me all enraged and yet I want to listen, enraged and yet I want to listen, enraged and yet I want to listen, >> but I'm not sure I need to listen to you >> but I'm not sure I need to listen to you >> but I'm not sure I need to listen to you right now in this season. What's your right now in this season. What's your right now in this season. What's your thought on that? thought on that? thought on that? >> I I do. And the reason why is I find I >> I I do. And the reason why is I find I >> I I do. And the reason why is I find I think this is part of the reason why we think this is part of the reason why we think this is part of the reason why we are so polarized right now is that we are so polarized right now is that we are so polarized right now is that we are responding to the extremes of the are responding to the extremes of the are responding to the extremes of the other side. So we're seeing the extreme other side. So we're seeing the extreme other side. So we're seeing the extreme of the other side and then we're of the other side and then we're of the other side and then we're extrapolating that and saying this is extrapolating that and saying this is extrapolating that and saying this is the entire side. the entire side. the entire side. >> Yeah. The extreme gets upvoted. It's the >> Yeah. The extreme gets upvoted. It's the >> Yeah. The extreme gets upvoted. It's the one that gets 100,000 likes and one that gets 100,000 likes and one that gets 100,000 likes and >> the other side you believe the same >> the other side you believe the same >> the other side you believe the same thing as this person way over here. thing as this person way over here. thing as this person way over here. And what happens with with some of these And what happens with with some of these And what happens with with some of these more extreme voices, I can tell that more extreme voices, I can tell that more extreme voices, I can tell that they are starting to they are starting to they are starting to overtake the horizon, you know, where overtake the horizon, you know, where overtake the horizon, you know, where where that is the only thing I can see where that is the only thing I can see where that is the only thing I can see from this side when that isn't reality.

from this side when that isn't reality. from this side when that isn't reality. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And I want to be able to hear from >> And I want to be able to hear from >> And I want to be able to hear from people that disagree with me and I people that disagree with me and I people that disagree with me and I disagree with them who are not disagree with them who are not disagree with them who are not the caricature of that side, but are the caricature of that side, but are the caricature of that side, but are deeply thoughtful and and humble and deeply thoughtful and and humble and deeply thoughtful and and humble and worth listening to. worth listening to. worth listening to. >> I wonder, you know, it's funny that you >> I wonder, you know, it's funny that you >> I wonder, you know, it's funny that you use the filter of listening or the use the filter of listening or the use the filter of listening or the reflection of listening, but I think I reflection of listening, but I think I reflection of listening, but I think I think the people I'm most likely to think the people I'm most likely to think the people I'm most likely to unfollow, block, or mute are the people unfollow, block, or mute are the people unfollow, block, or mute are the people who I suspect probably aren't listening. who I suspect probably aren't listening. who I suspect probably aren't listening. They're just talking. They're just talking. They're just talking. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Do you know what I mean? Like there are >> Do you know what I mean? Like there are >> Do you know what I mean? Like there are voices that are just I'm out here to get voices that are just I'm out here to get voices that are just I'm out here to get my viewpoint. You listen to me and you my viewpoint. You listen to me and you my viewpoint. You listen to me and you pay attention and d But there's not a pay attention and d But there's not a pay attention and d But there's not a lot of listening. And if they listen, lot of listening. And if they listen, lot of listening. And if they listen, they're listening to refute, to they're listening to refute, to they're listening to refute, to ridicule, to mock, to put down or to ridicule, to mock, to put down or to ridicule, to mock, to put down or to villainize, which is just And I mean, villainize, which is just And I mean, villainize, which is just And I mean, those are church leaders. It's crazy. those are church leaders. It's crazy. those are church leaders. It's crazy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What do you think is our cultural idol >> What do you think is our cultural idol >> What do you think is our cultural idol right now? You know, I was going to ask right now? You know, I was going to ask right now? You know, I was going to ask you about blind spots or but you you you about blind spots or but you you you about blind spots or but you you raised and I mean I'm such a Keller fan.

raised and I mean I'm such a Keller fan. raised and I mean I'm such a Keller fan. Keller, you can look at his work. A lot Keller, you can look at his work. A lot Keller, you can look at his work. A lot of it was just basically idolatry, of it was just basically idolatry, of it was just basically idolatry, right? Calvin's point that right? Calvin's point that right? Calvin's point that >> the human mind is a factory of idols and >> the human mind is a factory of idols and >> the human mind is a factory of idols and he would call it the disordered loves he would call it the disordered loves he would call it the disordered loves etc. But when you look out at our etc. But when you look out at our etc. But when you look out at our culture in this moment, what are our culture in this moment, what are our culture in this moment, what are our idols or the chief idol? idols or the chief idol? idols or the chief idol? You know, I'm not sure You know, I'm not sure You know, I'm not sure what I would say is the chief idol, what I would say is the chief idol, what I would say is the chief idol, but what I will say concerns me as just but what I will say concerns me as just but what I will say concerns me as just a broader a broader a broader cultural trend. So, a true cultural cultural trend. So, a true cultural cultural trend. So, a true cultural trend is one that transcends the left or trend is one that transcends the left or trend is one that transcends the left or the right. You you find it in both the right. You you find it in both the right. You you find it in both places. places. places. And one that really concerns me is the degradation of the IMO day, the the degradation of the IMO day, the the image of God in one another. This is image of God in one another. This is image of God in one another. This is a problem that I see in both sides and a problem that I see in both sides and a problem that I see in both sides and and one of the ways it reveals itself is and one of the ways it reveals itself is and one of the ways it reveals itself is in the heightened rhetoric that we are in the heightened rhetoric that we are in the heightened rhetoric that we are using.

using. using. >> That's true. Both sides do that. They >> That's true. Both sides do that. They >> That's true. Both sides do that. They diminish the Exactly. And and that's not diminish the Exactly. And and that's not diminish the Exactly. And and that's not to do the whole both sidesism, whatever to do the whole both sidesism, whatever to do the whole both sidesism, whatever it is, where it's kind of like both are it is, where it's kind of like both are it is, where it's kind of like both are doing it, but I I genuinely do think doing it, but I I genuinely do think doing it, but I I genuinely do think that when you are in a a culture, we are that when you are in a a culture, we are that when you are in a a culture, we are in American culture. And I think in American culture. And I think in American culture. And I think American culture degrades the image of American culture degrades the image of American culture degrades the image of God in people in just so many different God in people in just so many different God in people in just so many different ways. And we tend to point to certain ways. And we tend to point to certain ways. And we tend to point to certain expressions of it. for for instance, you expressions of it. for for instance, you expressions of it. for for instance, you know, pro-life, pro-choice, all of that know, pro-life, pro-choice, all of that know, pro-life, pro-choice, all of that is a very prominent example of of where is a very prominent example of of where is a very prominent example of of where this plays out. But without getting into this plays out. But without getting into this plays out. But without getting into the weeds of American politics, just the weeds of American politics, just the weeds of American politics, just suffice it to say, this is everywhere. suffice it to say, this is everywhere. suffice it to say, this is everywhere. >> Yeah. And I I think that one of the ways >> Yeah. And I I think that one of the ways >> Yeah. And I I think that one of the ways we really need to contend for we really need to contend for we really need to contend for that doctrine, you know, what we believe that doctrine, you know, what we believe that doctrine, you know, what we believe as the people of God is to as the people of God is to as the people of God is to rigorously rigorously rigorously uh honor every human being, not just in uh honor every human being, not just in uh honor every human being, not just in our policies, but in the ways that we our policies, but in the ways that we our policies, but in the ways that we talk about one another. and to talk about one another. and to talk about one another. and to soulsearch, not how are they doing it soulsearch, not how are they doing it soulsearch, not how are they doing it wrong over here, but are there any ways wrong over here, but are there any ways wrong over here, but are there any ways that we have succumbed to this cultural that we have succumbed to this cultural that we have succumbed to this cultural influence?

influence? influence? >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. So, your new book is called Gazing at So, your new book is called Gazing at So, your new book is called Gazing at God, and I'm curious, you know, it's a God, and I'm curious, you know, it's a God, and I'm curious, you know, it's a lot of self-reflection in there, which I lot of self-reflection in there, which I lot of self-reflection in there, which I think is great and part of our spiritual think is great and part of our spiritual think is great and part of our spiritual formation. Uh, tell us a little bit formation. Uh, tell us a little bit formation. Uh, tell us a little bit about it. about it. about it. >> So, this book is a followup. It's a >> So, this book is a followup. It's a >> So, this book is a followup. It's a devotional to a book I released about devotional to a book I released about devotional to a book I released about eight years ago now called Free of Me. eight years ago now called Free of Me. eight years ago now called Free of Me. And speaking of Tim Keller, that that And speaking of Tim Keller, that that And speaking of Tim Keller, that that book was very much influenced by him. book was very much influenced by him. book was very much influenced by him. It's a book about self forgetfulness, It's a book about self forgetfulness, It's a book about self forgetfulness, the freedom of self forgetfulness. the freedom of self forgetfulness. the freedom of self forgetfulness. But one thing that I realized after I But one thing that I realized after I But one thing that I realized after I released free of me, where I'm kind of released free of me, where I'm kind of released free of me, where I'm kind of naming this temptation of self-p naming this temptation of self-p naming this temptation of self-p preoccupation and the ways that it preoccupation and the ways that it preoccupation and the ways that it produces insecurity in us, I realized produces insecurity in us, I realized produces insecurity in us, I realized that I needed to do more work around why that I needed to do more work around why that I needed to do more work around why do we struggle with self-focus? And one do we struggle with self-focus? And one do we struggle with self-focus? And one of the voices who actually really helped of the voices who actually really helped of the voices who actually really helped me with this, it was a conversation that me with this, it was a conversation that me with this, it was a conversation that you had with Chuck Degro about when you had with Chuck Degro about when you had with Chuck Degro about when narcissism comes to church. And narcissism comes to church. And narcissism comes to church. And >> that first of all, I have to plug that >> that first of all, I have to plug that >> that first of all, I have to plug that book. Terrifying, man. I read that book.

book. Terrifying, man. I read that book. book. Terrifying, man. I read that book. I cannot think of I can't think of a I cannot think of I can't think of a I cannot think of I can't think of a book that has made me repent more book that has made me repent more book that has made me repent more [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] in my life. I was just hit square in my life. I was just hit square in my life. I was just hit square between the eyes. But one of the things between the eyes. But one of the things between the eyes. But one of the things that he said that was so that he said that was so that he said that was so eye opening for me is that underneath eye opening for me is that underneath eye opening for me is that underneath most narcissism is shame. you know, most narcissism is shame. you know, most narcissism is shame. you know, there's there's some sort of pain there's there's some sort of pain there's there's some sort of pain underneath it. [snorts] And so I underneath it. [snorts] And so I underneath it. [snorts] And so I realized realized realized you can't just exhort people to focus on you can't just exhort people to focus on you can't just exhort people to focus on God instead of themselves without God instead of themselves without God instead of themselves without addressing what is pulling your focus addressing what is pulling your focus addressing what is pulling your focus inward. Because it's it's very similar inward. Because it's it's very similar inward. Because it's it's very similar to if you were to sustain a physical to if you were to sustain a physical to if you were to sustain a physical injury, injury, injury, maybe you sprain your ankle, for maybe you sprain your ankle, for maybe you sprain your ankle, for example, you're going to give all your example, you're going to give all your example, you're going to give all your attention to that ankle. You're going to attention to that ankle. You're going to attention to that ankle. You're going to make sure you're icing it, you're make sure you're icing it, you're make sure you're icing it, you're propping it up, you have crutches, propping it up, you have crutches, propping it up, you have crutches, nobody's touching it, you're you're nobody's touching it, you're you're nobody's touching it, you're you're going to focus on it until it is healed. going to focus on it until it is healed. going to focus on it until it is healed. And our souls are that way. If if And our souls are that way. If if And our souls are that way. If if there's any sort of emotional wound that there's any sort of emotional wound that there's any sort of emotional wound that will necessarily in some ways pull your will necessarily in some ways pull your will necessarily in some ways pull your focus inward. You you are wanting to focus inward. You you are wanting to focus inward. You you are wanting to tend to that pain in some way. And so I tend to that pain in some way. And so I tend to that pain in some way. And so I realized that if we're not addressing realized that if we're not addressing realized that if we're not addressing what's going on inside of you, what pain what's going on inside of you, what pain what's going on inside of you, what pain is is pulling that focus inward, I've is is pulling that focus inward, I've is is pulling that focus inward, I've I've missed kind of a big big aspect of I've missed kind of a big big aspect of I've missed kind of a big big aspect of this journey. And so gazing at God is a this journey. And so gazing at God is a this journey. And so gazing at God is a followup where even though it is about

followup where even though it is about followup where even though it is about this journey of freedom from self, I this journey of freedom from self, I this journey of freedom from self, I think people will be really surprised think people will be really surprised think people will be really surprised how much attention I give to the self how much attention I give to the self how much attention I give to the self and understanding the self and and what and understanding the self and and what and understanding the self and and what is going on. But where I differ from is going on. But where I differ from is going on. But where I differ from like our self-help movement, our like our self-help movement, our like our self-help movement, our self-esteem movement, they would say, self-esteem movement, they would say, self-esteem movement, they would say, you know, interior examination, you know, interior examination, you know, interior examination, all that absolutely heal all that absolutely heal all that absolutely heal because you being your whole self is you because you being your whole self is you because you being your whole self is you at your best. That that's what you're at your best. That that's what you're at your best. That that's what you're created for essentially. created for essentially. created for essentially. >> And Christians would say, no, in fact, >> And Christians would say, no, in fact, >> And Christians would say, no, in fact, the your purpose is much higher than the your purpose is much higher than the your purpose is much higher than that. Healing is just one step on the that. Healing is just one step on the that. Healing is just one step on the way to purpose. And so gazing at God is way to purpose. And so gazing at God is way to purpose. And so gazing at God is that arc where it starts out looking at that arc where it starts out looking at that arc where it starts out looking at what is going on in your interior world. what is going on in your interior world. what is going on in your interior world. What are the scripts that you are What are the scripts that you are What are the scripts that you are speaking to yourself? What are the speaking to yourself? What are the speaking to yourself? What are the assumptions that you're making? What are assumptions that you're making? What are assumptions that you're making? What are the wounds that are driving you? Let's the wounds that are driving you? Let's the wounds that are driving you? Let's address that so that we can move back address that so that we can move back address that so that we can move back towards what we were created for which towards what we were created for which towards what we were created for which was love of God and others.

was love of God and others. was love of God and others. You know, not an easy question to wrap You know, not an easy question to wrap You know, not an easy question to wrap up, but a good one. You know, we're all up, but a good one. You know, we're all up, but a good one. You know, we're all in process. I'm surprised. I had a big in process. I'm surprised. I had a big in process. I'm surprised. I had a big birthday earlier this year, and I'm birthday earlier this year, and I'm birthday earlier this year, and I'm like, you know, you expect to arrive and like, you know, you expect to arrive and like, you know, you expect to arrive and you never arrive. It's like, ah, here I you never arrive. It's like, ah, here I you never arrive. It's like, ah, here I am again, right? What's the hardest am again, right? What's the hardest am again, right? What's the hardest truth you've had to tell yourself about truth you've had to tell yourself about truth you've had to tell yourself about your leadership so far? your leadership so far? your leadership so far? I would say I have alluded to this I would say I have alluded to this I would say I have alluded to this already, but that but that pain is pain is pain is what I signed up for and not something to resent and not something to resent or to try and remove from ministry, but or to try and remove from ministry, but or to try and remove from ministry, but that it is actually the All that it is actually the All that it is actually the All >> that that is a lesson I'm still >> that that is a lesson I'm still >> that that is a lesson I'm still learning I would say. learning I would say. learning I would say. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sharon, you've been so transparent, so Sharon, you've been so transparent, so Sharon, you've been so transparent, so honest. I think a lot of leaders are honest. I think a lot of leaders are honest. I think a lot of leaders are going to see themselves in this going to see themselves in this going to see themselves in this conversation. I just want to thank you.

conversation. I just want to thank you. conversation. I just want to thank you. Thank you for being transparent. Thank you for being transparent. Thank you for being transparent. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thanks Thank you for being vulnerable. Thanks Thank you for being vulnerable. Thanks for being honest. And thanks for the for being honest. And thanks for the for being honest. And thanks for the lack of spin. It's refreshing. lack of spin. It's refreshing. lack of spin. It's refreshing. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called >> Yeah. Well, the new book is called Gazing at God. Um, it's available Gazing at God. Um, it's available Gazing at God. Um, it's available everywhere. I do recommend you follow everywhere. I do recommend you follow everywhere. I do recommend you follow Sharon uh on social. Where are you most Sharon uh on social. Where are you most Sharon uh on social. Where are you most active these days? Tik Tok, Instagram. active these days? Tik Tok, Instagram. active these days? Tik Tok, Instagram. >> Instagram. Sharon H. Miller. >> Instagram. Sharon H. Miller. >> Instagram. Sharon H. Miller. >> Yep. Yep. You definitely want to check >> Yep. Yep. You definitely want to check >> Yep. Yep. You definitely want to check it out. Anyway, till next time, Sharon. it out. Anyway, till next time, Sharon. it out. Anyway, till next time, Sharon. Thank you so much.