How to Handle Conflict At Work (3 Strategies)

We often will be in in organizations and We often will be in in organizations and we'll hear from both sides of the story. we'll hear from both sides of the story. we'll hear from both sides of the story. So, we'll go to we'll we'll be doing So, we'll go to we'll we'll be doing So, we'll go to we'll we'll be doing focus groups or something and somebody focus groups or something and somebody focus groups or something and somebody say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a micromanager." And then we go to the to micromanager." And then we go to the to micromanager." And then we go to the to the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I wish I didn't have to micromanage my I wish I didn't have to micromanage my I wish I didn't have to micromanage my team. They're never accountable." team. They're never accountable." team. They're never accountable." Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'm so glad you joined us today and if you're new here, joined us today and if you're new here, joined us today and if you're new here, make sure you subscribe. You're going to make sure you subscribe. You're going to make sure you subscribe. You're going to get some incredible guests. We have got get some incredible guests. We have got get some incredible guests. We have got Jim Collins, Malcolm Gladwell, Nona Jim Collins, Malcolm Gladwell, Nona Jim Collins, Malcolm Gladwell, Nona Jones, Sharon McMahon, Ed Stetzer, Andy Jones, Sharon McMahon, Ed Stetzer, Andy Jones, Sharon McMahon, Ed Stetzer, Andy Stanley, and a whole lot more coming up Stanley, and a whole lot more coming up Stanley, and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. Also, Henry Cloud, did I on the podcast. Also, Henry Cloud, did I on the podcast. Also, Henry Cloud, did I mention that? And if you subscribe, mention that? And if you subscribe, mention that? And if you subscribe, you'll never miss an episode. Hey, today you'll never miss an episode. Hey, today you'll never miss an episode. Hey, today we've got two leaders that I'm excited we've got two leaders that I'm excited we've got two leaders that I'm excited to introduce you to, Karen Hurt and to introduce you to, Karen Hurt and to introduce you to, Karen Hurt and David Dye. A lot of you struggle with David Dye. A lot of you struggle with David Dye. A lot of you struggle with conflict at work, you have bad bosses. conflict at work, you have bad bosses. conflict at work, you have bad bosses. This is going to be hyper hyper This is going to be hyper hyper This is going to be hyper hyper practical on exactly what to say to your practical on exactly what to say to your practical on exactly what to say to your boss, exactly what to say to your lazy boss, exactly what to say to your lazy boss, exactly what to say to your lazy co-worker, and a whole lot more. Today's co-worker, and a whole lot more. Today's co-worker, and a whole lot more. Today's episode is brought to you by Upward episode is brought to you by Upward episode is brought to you by Upward Sports. Is your church eager to connect Sports. Is your church eager to connect Sports. Is your church eager to connect with the community and reach new with the community and reach new with the community and reach new families? Well, then you got to check families? Well, then you got to check families? Well, then you got to check out Upward Sports. It's the world's out Upward Sports. It's the world's out Upward Sports. It's the world's largest Christian youth sports largest Christian youth sports largest Christian youth sports organization. They want to support your organization. They want to support your organization. They want to support your church and to promote the gospel through church and to promote the gospel through church and to promote the gospel through sports. So, all you have to do is visit sports. So, all you have to do is visit sports. So, all you have to do is visit upward.org/churchleaders upward.org/churchleaders upward.org/churchleaders to learn more. And today's episode is to learn more. And today's episode is to learn more. And today's episode is brought to you by Overflow. So, if you brought to you by Overflow. So, if you brought to you by Overflow. So, if you are ready to see an increase in are ready to see an increase in are ready to see an increase in engagement in your church and maybe get engagement in your church and maybe get engagement in your church and maybe get rid of QR codes or there are not too rid of QR codes or there are not too rid of QR codes or there are not too many QR codes these days. Well, if you many QR codes these days. Well, if you many QR codes these days. Well, if you want to get rid of them, go to Overflow want to get rid of them, go to Overflow want to get rid of them, go to Overflow Tap. Overflow Tap enables your people to

Tap. Overflow Tap enables your people to Tap. Overflow Tap enables your people to tap their phones during the service and tap their phones during the service and tap their phones during the service and access digital connection cards, event access digital connection cards, event access digital connection cards, event registration, giving, and a whole lot registration, giving, and a whole lot registration, giving, and a whole lot more. Just like you tap your phone to more. Just like you tap your phone to more. Just like you tap your phone to pay, you can do that in church. Go to pay, you can do that in church. Go to pay, you can do that in church. Go to overflow.co/carey overflow.co/carey overflow.co/carey to learn more. And now, my conversation to learn more. And now, my conversation to learn more. And now, my conversation with Karen Hurt and David Dye. So, David with Karen Hurt and David Dye. So, David with Karen Hurt and David Dye. So, David and Karen, welcome to the podcast. I'm and Karen, welcome to the podcast. I'm and Karen, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you both. Oh, we're so so glad to have you both. Oh, we're so so glad to have you both. Oh, we're so delighted to be here. Thanks for having delighted to be here. Thanks for having delighted to be here. Thanks for having us. Uh you're so welcome. So, uh I want us. Uh you're so welcome. So, uh I want us. Uh you're so welcome. So, uh I want to start here in the book that you to start here in the book that you to start here in the book that you co-authored. You surveyed 5,000 over co-authored. You surveyed 5,000 over co-authored. You surveyed 5,000 over 5,000 people 5,000 people 5,000 people uh about conflict at work. What did you uh about conflict at work. What did you uh about conflict at work. What did you learn learn learn through that study? through that study? through that study? Yeah, one of the reasons that we decided Yeah, one of the reasons that we decided Yeah, one of the reasons that we decided to do that study was because coming out to do that study was because coming out to do that study was because coming out of the pandemic, as you think about the of the pandemic, as you think about the of the pandemic, as you think about the workplace in general, things have workplace in general, things have workplace in general, things have changed. And we wanted to know what was changed. And we wanted to know what was changed. And we wanted to know what was happening today. What's current when it happening today. What's current when it happening today. What's current when it comes to workplace conflicts as we're comes to workplace conflicts as we're comes to workplace conflicts as we're getting ready to write this book about getting ready to write this book about getting ready to write this book about it. So, we asked people um starting with it. So, we asked people um starting with it. So, we asked people um starting with the big picture question, are you the big picture question, are you the big picture question, are you experiencing more or less or the same experiencing more or less or the same experiencing more or less or the same conflict at work as in prior years? And conflict at work as in prior years? And conflict at work as in prior years? And 70% of the respondents, again, that's 70% of the respondents, again, that's 70% of the respondents, again, that's 5,000 plus people in 46 different 5,000 plus people in 46 different 5,000 plus people in 46 different countries, countries, countries, uh said that they are experiencing 70% uh said that they are experiencing 70% uh said that they are experiencing 70% said, "I'm experiencing the same or said, "I'm experiencing the same or said, "I'm experiencing the same or greater amounts of conflict."

greater amounts of conflict." greater amounts of conflict." And you know, you look at the 30% though And you know, you look at the 30% though And you know, you look at the 30% though that said they're experiencing less, and that said they're experiencing less, and that said they're experiencing less, and then we dug in and said, "Well, okay, then we dug in and said, "Well, okay, then we dug in and said, "Well, okay, why is it less?" Yeah. And half of those why is it less?" Yeah. And half of those why is it less?" Yeah. And half of those people said, "Well, it's cuz I escaped. people said, "Well, it's cuz I escaped. people said, "Well, it's cuz I escaped. So, I I So, I I So, I I Right? I left a toxic workplace. I I I'm Right? I left a toxic workplace. I I I'm Right? I left a toxic workplace. I I I'm working for entirely from home now, and working for entirely from home now, and working for entirely from home now, and I don't have to interact with anybody. I don't have to interact with anybody. I don't have to interact with anybody. Therefore, no conflict." And that might Therefore, no conflict." And that might Therefore, no conflict." And that might feel peacefuler or great for that feel peacefuler or great for that feel peacefuler or great for that individual, but what is lost in all of individual, but what is lost in all of individual, but what is lost in all of that is also a lot of the collaboration that is also a lot of the collaboration that is also a lot of the collaboration and the creativity and the innovation and the creativity and the innovation and the creativity and the innovation that that makes for better workplaces or that that makes for better workplaces or that that makes for better workplaces or gets better solutions. So, whether we're gets better solutions. So, whether we're gets better solutions. So, whether we're talking about a church or a nonprofit or talking about a church or a nonprofit or talking about a church or a nonprofit or any any kind of organization, there is a any any kind of organization, there is a any any kind of organization, there is a need for some of that creative tension need for some of that creative tension need for some of that creative tension that helps us to be better together, and that helps us to be better together, and that helps us to be better together, and that's lost, unfortunately, in that that's lost, unfortunately, in that that's lost, unfortunately, in that half. half. half. That's funny. 30% said they escaped. I That's funny. 30% said they escaped. I That's funny. 30% said they escaped. I think there are a lot of leaders think there are a lot of leaders think there are a lot of leaders listening to the show who'd be like, "I listening to the show who'd be like, "I listening to the show who'd be like, "I would sign up for that." You know, if would sign up for that." You know, if would sign up for that." You know, if it's a particularly bad day, I would it's a particularly bad day, I would it's a particularly bad day, I would love to escape. Yeah, you know, it's love to escape. Yeah, you know, it's love to escape. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. One of the questions we interesting. One of the questions we interesting. One of the questions we asked in the research is what advice asked in the research is what advice asked in the research is what advice would you give your former self if you would you give your former self if you would you give your former self if you were faced with a conflict, a major were faced with a conflict, a major were faced with a conflict, a major conflict that you've had in the past conflict that you've had in the past conflict that you've had in the past again?

again? again? And it was fascinating. 55% said, "I And it was fascinating. 55% said, "I And it was fascinating. 55% said, "I would stay calm." And 21% said, "I would would stay calm." And 21% said, "I would would stay calm." And 21% said, "I would talk about it or talk about it sooner." talk about it or talk about it sooner." talk about it or talk about it sooner." And why And why And why uh, that is so important because you uh, that is so important because you uh, that is so important because you need If you want to stay calm, you need need If you want to stay calm, you need need If you want to stay calm, you need more than somebody saying, "Calm down." more than somebody saying, "Calm down." more than somebody saying, "Calm down." Right? Right? Right? You need tools to to be able to ground You need tools to to be able to ground You need tools to to be able to ground yourself, to have the words that will yourself, to have the words that will yourself, to have the words that will lead to a more productive conflict lead to a more productive conflict lead to a more productive conflict conversation. conversation. conversation. That's interesting, you know, because I That's interesting, you know, because I That's interesting, you know, because I would probably give myself the same would probably give myself the same would probably give myself the same advice. And I certainly have gotten advice. And I certainly have gotten advice. And I certainly have gotten better at staying calm. Uh, that one better at staying calm. Uh, that one better at staying calm. Uh, that one came early for me. came early for me. came early for me. But delaying, still guilty. But delaying, still guilty. But delaying, still guilty. Uh, there's a I'm not a procrastinator, Uh, there's a I'm not a procrastinator, Uh, there's a I'm not a procrastinator, but when it comes to conflict, but when it comes to conflict, but when it comes to conflict, I can procrastinate. Is that normal? I can procrastinate. Is that normal? I can procrastinate. Is that normal? like like like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And and most most conflict does not get And and most most conflict does not get And and most most conflict does not get better with time. All right? And you better with time. All right? And you better with time. All right? And you know, and you know, part of what we see know, and you know, part of what we see know, and you know, part of what we see is people have like magical thinking. is people have like magical thinking. is people have like magical thinking. They're like, "Well, surely they know They're like, "Well, surely they know They're like, "Well, surely they know this is a problem, you know, that this is a problem, you know, that this is a problem, you know, that they're not meeting my expectations, they're not meeting my expectations, they're not meeting my expectations, that they're doing this thing that's that they're doing this thing that's that they're doing this thing that's really um, derailing our team. They'll really um, derailing our team. They'll really um, derailing our team. They'll fix it themselves." All right? And fix it themselves." All right? And fix it themselves." All right? And Yeah, if nothing changes Yeah, if nothing changes Yeah, if nothing changes worked for me, but I keep believing it worked for me, but I keep believing it worked for me, but I keep believing it will just for the record, okay? Yeah.

will just for the record, okay? Yeah. will just for the record, okay? Yeah. It's human nature, you know, that that It's human nature, you know, that that It's human nature, you know, that that Yeah. We we it's a survival mechanism, Yeah. We we it's a survival mechanism, Yeah. We we it's a survival mechanism, you know, instinct to like, "Gosh, am I you know, instinct to like, "Gosh, am I you know, instinct to like, "Gosh, am I going to damage a relationship? Am I going to damage a relationship? Am I going to damage a relationship? Am I going to lose my status? Am I going to" going to lose my status? Am I going to" going to lose my status? Am I going to" All of these stories that play in our All of these stories that play in our All of these stories that play in our head head head and and and I think I don't think there's anybody I think I don't think there's anybody I think I don't think there's anybody listening who can't identify with that listening who can't identify with that listening who can't identify with that at some point in their work in their at some point in their work in their at some point in their work in their their their career in their life. Like their their career in their life. Like their their career in their life. Like it is part of human experience. So, the it is part of human experience. So, the it is part of human experience. So, the sooner we can get into the conversation, sooner we can get into the conversation, sooner we can get into the conversation, the more productive outcomes we can get. the more productive outcomes we can get. the more productive outcomes we can get. Yeah. Are there any other trends you've Yeah. Are there any other trends you've Yeah. Are there any other trends you've noticed? I think most of us, I would be noticed? I think most of us, I would be noticed? I think most of us, I would be on the majority side who would say on the majority side who would say on the majority side who would say conflict seems to be getting worse. Not conflict seems to be getting worse. Not conflict seems to be getting worse. Not necessarily just from bosses who might necessarily just from bosses who might necessarily just from bosses who might be not conflict-averse, but also just be not conflict-averse, but also just be not conflict-averse, but also just people throwing up flags, going, "Hey, people throwing up flags, going, "Hey, people throwing up flags, going, "Hey, you know, this isn't fair, or this is you know, this isn't fair, or this is you know, this isn't fair, or this is toxic, or whatever." The complaint side toxic, or whatever." The complaint side toxic, or whatever." The complaint side seems to be going up. Uh the friction seems to be going up. Uh the friction seems to be going up. Uh the friction side, you know, we live in a very side, you know, we live in a very side, you know, we live in a very tribalized society. Did any of that tribalized society. Did any of that tribalized society. Did any of that reveal itself in the research, or were reveal itself in the research, or were reveal itself in the research, or were there other trends you noted as well?

there other trends you noted as well? there other trends you noted as well? Uh yeah, it really did. Uh the two top Uh yeah, it really did. Uh the two top Uh yeah, it really did. Uh the two top So, we So, we So, we all these respondents, we identified a all these respondents, we identified a all these respondents, we identified a whole huge list of potential causes of whole huge list of potential causes of whole huge list of potential causes of the reasons for all this conflict. And the reasons for all this conflict. And the reasons for all this conflict. And the top two that came out were the top two that came out were the top two that came out were overwhelmed burnout, understaffing, and overwhelmed burnout, understaffing, and overwhelmed burnout, understaffing, and so all of that we can kind of easily so all of that we can kind of easily so all of that we can kind of easily wrap our head around. And then tied with wrap our head around. And then tied with wrap our head around. And then tied with that was uh poor management practices. that was uh poor management practices. that was uh poor management practices. And poor leadership. And before we get And poor leadership. And before we get And poor leadership. And before we get too upset at leaders, I know we have a too upset at leaders, I know we have a too upset at leaders, I know we have a lot of leaders listening, lot of leaders listening, lot of leaders listening, leaders today are facing a more complex leaders today are facing a more complex leaders today are facing a more complex environment than before any time in environment than before any time in environment than before any time in history, uh at least recent history. And history, uh at least recent history. And history, uh at least recent history. And so, you take the changing workplace, you so, you take the changing workplace, you so, you take the changing workplace, you take, as you said, changing social take, as you said, changing social take, as you said, changing social trends, you take um the needs of the trends, you take um the needs of the trends, you take um the needs of the workforce for more transparency, workforce for more transparency, workforce for more transparency, vulnerability, uh empathy, support. Um vulnerability, uh empathy, support. Um vulnerability, uh empathy, support. Um And And many of these are good things And And many of these are good things And And many of these are good things that we would support and say, "Yes, that we would support and say, "Yes, that we would support and say, "Yes, this is a positive trend." But learning this is a positive trend." But learning this is a positive trend." But learning how to lead that way takes work. And in how to lead that way takes work. And in how to lead that way takes work. And in many of our organizations, you've got, many of our organizations, you've got, many of our organizations, you've got, you know, bigger organizations, you've you know, bigger organizations, you've you know, bigger organizations, you've got some of the cross time zone and and got some of the cross time zone and and got some of the cross time zone and and remote and hybrid and all these sorts of remote and hybrid and all these sorts of remote and hybrid and all these sorts of things, which leaders are still catching things, which leaders are still catching things, which leaders are still catching up to in many respects.

up to in many respects. up to in many respects. And so, all of that creates some what we And so, all of that creates some what we And so, all of that creates some what we call conflict cocktails call conflict cocktails call conflict cocktails that uh create some challenging that uh create some challenging that uh create some challenging circumstances and some kind of new circumstances and some kind of new circumstances and some kind of new breeds of conflict. And then you also breeds of conflict. And then you also breeds of conflict. And then you also have you're mentioning the polarization. have you're mentioning the polarization. have you're mentioning the polarization. That was uh right there in the top four, That was uh right there in the top four, That was uh right there in the top four, uh less tolerance, understanding for uh less tolerance, understanding for uh less tolerance, understanding for others, and then pandemic-related mental others, and then pandemic-related mental others, and then pandemic-related mental health and anxiety issues that continue health and anxiety issues that continue health and anxiety issues that continue to linger um from, you know, that global to linger um from, you know, that global to linger um from, you know, that global event that that was certainly traumatic. event that that was certainly traumatic. event that that was certainly traumatic. One of the biggest sources of conflict One of the biggest sources of conflict One of the biggest sources of conflict consistently is unclear expectations. consistently is unclear expectations. consistently is unclear expectations. And part of what has changed is that the And part of what has changed is that the And part of what has changed is that the world has changed so fast in many world has changed so fast in many world has changed so fast in many circumstances. And so we haven't let the circumstances. And so we haven't let the circumstances. And so we haven't let the our expectations our expectations our expectations catch up with that. So, okay, you can catch up with that. So, okay, you can catch up with that. So, okay, you can work from anywhere. So we you say you work from anywhere. So we you say you work from anywhere. So we you say you say to your staff, right? You can work say to your staff, right? You can work say to your staff, right? You can work from anywhere. That's just fine. from anywhere. That's just fine. from anywhere. That's just fine. Well, what does that actually mean? And Well, what does that actually mean? And Well, what does that actually mean? And so we had an example so we had an example so we had an example when we're, you know, doing this when we're, you know, doing this when we're, you know, doing this research. And this research. And this research. And this person had posted on LinkedIn their work person had posted on LinkedIn their work person had posted on LinkedIn their work from anywhere policy. They're like, from anywhere policy. They're like, from anywhere policy. They're like, "Thank goodness for our company's work "Thank goodness for our company's work "Thank goodness for our company's work from anywhere policy. I can do this from from anywhere policy. I can do this from from anywhere policy. I can do this from the petting zoo." And they're holding the petting zoo." And they're holding the petting zoo." And they're holding their computer with a Zoom thing meeting their computer with a Zoom thing meeting their computer with a Zoom thing meeting up and start petting the pony on the up and start petting the pony on the up and start petting the pony on the other side of it. And then responding to other side of it. And then responding to other side of it. And then responding to everybody's comments. And you know, "Oh, everybody's comments. And you know, "Oh, everybody's comments. And you know, "Oh, isn't that cute?" Da da da da.

isn't that cute?" Da da da da. isn't that cute?" Da da da da. But meanwhile, their coworkers are like, But meanwhile, their coworkers are like, But meanwhile, their coworkers are like, "Hey, where's that email? Why didn't you "Hey, where's that email? Why didn't you "Hey, where's that email? Why didn't you get me that data you're supposed to do, get me that data you're supposed to do, get me that data you're supposed to do, right?" And so do we really mean you can right?" And so do we really mean you can right?" And so do we really mean you can work from anywhere? Or should we have work from anywhere? Or should we have work from anywhere? Or should we have our cameras on or off in a meeting? A our cameras on or off in a meeting? A our cameras on or off in a meeting? A lot of there can be a lot of conflict lot of there can be a lot of conflict lot of there can be a lot of conflict around that if we think it is if we have around that if we think it is if we have around that if we think it is if we have different expectations of what we really different expectations of what we really different expectations of what we really should be doing. And so one of the should be doing. And so one of the should be doing. And so one of the things that we find in our work with things that we find in our work with things that we find in our work with clients is one of the most important clients is one of the most important clients is one of the most important things to do is create better clarity of things to do is create better clarity of things to do is create better clarity of expectations. And you know, one good expectations. And you know, one good expectations. And you know, one good conversation about expectations can conversation about expectations can conversation about expectations can prevent all those why didn't you prevent all those why didn't you prevent all those why didn't you conflict conversations. Okay, that might conflict conversations. Okay, that might conflict conversations. Okay, that might be my new favorite example for remote be my new favorite example for remote be my new favorite example for remote working, the petting zoo. I never would working, the petting zoo. I never would working, the petting zoo. I never would have imagined. But I want to I want to have imagined. But I want to I want to have imagined. But I want to I want to walk through this. So most of people walk through this. So most of people walk through this. So most of people listening to this, if my research is listening to this, if my research is listening to this, if my research is right, cuz churches are famous for this, right, cuz churches are famous for this, right, cuz churches are famous for this, don't have remote working policies. It don't have remote working policies. It don't have remote working policies. It might be a day or two a week, but might be a day or two a week, but might be a day or two a week, but generally they have an office, generally they have an office, generally they have an office, everybody's there. But I also know that everybody's there. But I also know that everybody's there. But I also know that like my company's entirely virtual. like my company's entirely virtual. like my company's entirely virtual. So people live in different cities, So people live in different cities, So people live in different cities, different countries. And last year, I different countries. And last year, I different countries. And last year, I want to give you an example, we were want to give you an example, we were want to give you an example, we were hiring.

hiring. hiring. And we have over 400 applications for And we have over 400 applications for And we have over 400 applications for this one position. You know, heavy this one position. You know, heavy this one position. You know, heavy demand. And we had some filters. This demand. And we had some filters. This demand. And we had some filters. This one got into the top 100, but as soon as one got into the top 100, but as soon as one got into the top 100, but as soon as I read it, I'm like, gone. Not even I read it, I'm like, gone. Not even I read it, I'm like, gone. Not even interviewing. So it was like, oh, I'm so interviewing. So it was like, oh, I'm so interviewing. So it was like, oh, I'm so excited by this remote opportunity. I excited by this remote opportunity. I excited by this remote opportunity. I can't wait to put in laundry in between can't wait to put in laundry in between can't wait to put in laundry in between meetings, etc., etc. And now meetings, etc., etc. And now meetings, etc., etc. And now I'm like I'm like I'm like I do that sometimes, but I wouldn't lead I do that sometimes, but I wouldn't lead I do that sometimes, but I wouldn't lead with that. You know what I mean? The with that. You know what I mean? The with that. You know what I mean? The reason I want this job, cuz I work from reason I want this job, cuz I work from reason I want this job, cuz I work from home, this is my house, is because I'm home, this is my house, is because I'm home, this is my house, is because I'm throwing in laundry. And we were so throwing in laundry. And we were so throwing in laundry. And we were so clear with our candidates. It's like, clear with our candidates. It's like, clear with our candidates. It's like, yes, it's working from home. Yes, it's yes, it's working from home. Yes, it's yes, it's working from home. Yes, it's flexible. Yes, it's a four-day work flexible. Yes, it's a four-day work flexible. Yes, it's a four-day work week. But when you're on, you're on, and week. But when you're on, you're on, and week. But when you're on, you're on, and you're focused, and child care is taken you're focused, and child care is taken you're focused, and child care is taken care of. I don't care how you do it, but care of. I don't care how you do it, but care of. I don't care how you do it, but you're going to be in a room with the you're going to be in a room with the you're going to be in a room with the door closed, cameras on. You're talking door closed, cameras on. You're talking door closed, cameras on. You're talking about that kind of clarity. Now, other about that kind of clarity. Now, other about that kind of clarity. Now, other people may have different views, and people may have different views, and people may have different views, and sometimes, you know, people are working sometimes, you know, people are working sometimes, you know, people are working from coffee shops or a backyard or from coffee shops or a backyard or from coffee shops or a backyard or something like that. But the point is, something like that. But the point is, something like that. But the point is, when you're on, you're on, but we give when you're on, you're on, but we give when you're on, you're on, but we give you an incredible amount of freedom you an incredible amount of freedom you an incredible amount of freedom around that. Thoughts about that? What's around that. Thoughts about that? What's around that. Thoughts about that? What's good? What what would you nuance? I'd good? What what would you nuance? I'd good? What what would you nuance? I'd say that's very good because it's clear.

say that's very good because it's clear. say that's very good because it's clear. And there's that as you said, there's no And there's that as you said, there's no And there's that as you said, there's no one solution for everybody. Somebody one solution for everybody. Somebody one solution for everybody. Somebody coffee shop might be perfectly coffee shop might be perfectly coffee shop might be perfectly appropriate. appropriate. appropriate. And others, you know, that And others, you know, that And others, you know, that it may not be work at all. Like you need it may not be work at all. Like you need it may not be work at all. Like you need to be in a quiet environment with no to be in a quiet environment with no to be in a quiet environment with no background noise. Like that's just part background noise. Like that's just part background noise. Like that's just part of or so being clear about what those of or so being clear about what those of or so being clear about what those things are and what those norms are things are and what those norms are things are and what those norms are helps everybody to get along better and helps everybody to get along better and helps everybody to get along better and and resolve some of those issues that and resolve some of those issues that and resolve some of those issues that just don't need to be conflicts to begin just don't need to be conflicts to begin just don't need to be conflicts to begin with. Yeah, Carey, I had a interesting with. Yeah, Carey, I had a interesting with. Yeah, Carey, I had a interesting conversation with a pastor conversation with a pastor conversation with a pastor of fairly significant size organization of fairly significant size organization of fairly significant size organization recently. And he was saying that one of recently. And he was saying that one of recently. And he was saying that one of the biggest sources of conflicts that the biggest sources of conflicts that the biggest sources of conflicts that that he teaches his other pastors to that he teaches his other pastors to that he teaches his other pastors to really think about and how to how to really think about and how to how to really think about and how to how to approach it is, you know, what can you approach it is, you know, what can you approach it is, you know, what can you say? So, he says, so I'm dealing like say? So, he says, so I'm dealing like say? So, he says, so I'm dealing like I'm dealing with issues I'm dealing with issues I'm dealing with issues in on the staff of the church and I have in on the staff of the church and I have in on the staff of the church and I have to balance the privacy of the people to balance the privacy of the people to balance the privacy of the people that I on my staff with all of the this that I on my staff with all of the this that I on my staff with all of the this all these other people who think they all these other people who think they all these other people who think they have a right to know everything that is have a right to know everything that is have a right to know everything that is going on going on going on because they're part of the because they're part of the because they're part of the congregation. And and it is that he congregation. And and it is that he congregation. And and it is that he thinks that's one of the biggest sources thinks that's one of the biggest sources thinks that's one of the biggest sources of conflict because he may be dealing to of conflict because he may be dealing to of conflict because he may be dealing to protect the privacy and the dignity of protect the privacy and the dignity of protect the privacy and the dignity of the person that he's working with maybe the person that he's working with maybe the person that he's working with maybe to manage a performance conversation and to manage a performance conversation and to manage a performance conversation and and so he can't share everything that's and so he can't share everything that's and so he can't share everything that's going on with the congregation, but he going on with the congregation, but he going on with the congregation, but he also has a also has a also has a an obligation to the some level of an obligation to the some level of an obligation to the some level of transparency with the congregation. And transparency with the congregation. And transparency with the congregation. And so I that to me may be something, you

so I that to me may be something, you so I that to me may be something, you know, that is somewhat more unique to know, that is somewhat more unique to know, that is somewhat more unique to church than maybe some other church than maybe some other church than maybe some other organizations. organizations. organizations. Uh, I feel for that pastor. I've been in Uh, I feel for that pastor. I've been in Uh, I feel for that pastor. I've been in that situation and you know, I think by that situation and you know, I think by that situation and you know, I think by the end of the time when I was lead the end of the time when I was lead the end of the time when I was lead pastor, we'd figured out a formula. Just pastor, we'd figured out a formula. Just pastor, we'd figured out a formula. Just enough enough enough to protect, you know, the person's to protect, you know, the person's to protect, you know, the person's dignity, whatever was happening, you dignity, whatever was happening, you dignity, whatever was happening, you know, if it was a termination or know, if it was a termination or know, if it was a termination or something like that. Enough for the something like that. Enough for the something like that. Enough for the congregation, but somebody told me this congregation, but somebody told me this congregation, but somebody told me this years ago, always allow people to walk years ago, always allow people to walk years ago, always allow people to walk away with their dignity. And I think away with their dignity. And I think away with their dignity. And I think that's really, really important in any that's really, really important in any that's really, really important in any kind of situation, even if it's kind of situation, even if it's kind of situation, even if it's terrible. You know, not everybody needs terrible. You know, not everybody needs terrible. You know, not everybody needs to know everything. We're not the to know everything. We're not the to know everything. We're not the National Enquirer. On the other hand, National Enquirer. On the other hand, National Enquirer. On the other hand, the congregation is owed an explanation the congregation is owed an explanation the congregation is owed an explanation as to what happened. So, it's a it's a as to what happened. So, it's a it's a as to what happened. So, it's a it's a delicate thing and I think for all those delicate thing and I think for all those delicate thing and I think for all those reasons, we kind of answered the next reasons, we kind of answered the next reasons, we kind of answered the next question, which is question, which is question, which is yeah, leadership is a lot more yeah, leadership is a lot more yeah, leadership is a lot more complicated today. And you're dealing complicated today. And you're dealing complicated today. And you're dealing with in-person and virtual, you're with in-person and virtual, you're with in-person and virtual, you're dealing with you know, the demand like dealing with you know, the demand like dealing with you know, the demand like when we started doing when we started doing when we started doing a remote company 10 years ago, eight a remote company 10 years ago, eight a remote company 10 years ago, eight years ago, years ago, years ago, you know, it was novel. Now it's not you know, it was novel. Now it's not you know, it was novel. Now it's not novel. Freedom and flexibility around novel. Freedom and flexibility around novel. Freedom and flexibility around timelines was novel. It's not novel and timelines was novel. It's not novel and timelines was novel. It's not novel and it's almost seen as an entitlement now, it's almost seen as an entitlement now, it's almost seen as an entitlement now, right? Well, you can get you can get right? Well, you can get you can get right? Well, you can get you can get some rights. You just got to have some some rights. You just got to have some some rights. You just got to have some responsibilities in the mix of that.

responsibilities in the mix of that. responsibilities in the mix of that. Okay, off soapbox. On to next question. Okay, off soapbox. On to next question. Okay, off soapbox. On to next question. So, So, So, would love to know cuz we're going to would love to know cuz we're going to would love to know cuz we're going to get hyper practical in this get hyper practical in this get hyper practical in this conversation because your latest book is conversation because your latest book is conversation because your latest book is hyper practical. But I want to start hyper practical. But I want to start hyper practical. But I want to start with what doesn't work. So, what methods with what doesn't work. So, what methods with what doesn't work. So, what methods of resolving conflict have you found a of resolving conflict have you found a of resolving conflict have you found a lot of people still use, but they're lot of people still use, but they're lot of people still use, but they're just not effective? Yeah, in in chapter just not effective? Yeah, in in chapter just not effective? Yeah, in in chapter two in the book, we actually talk about two in the book, we actually talk about two in the book, we actually talk about some of these. some of these. some of these. One of them are I statements and the One of them are I statements and the One of them are I statements and the other is sandwich feedback. And I'm sure other is sandwich feedback. And I'm sure other is sandwich feedback. And I'm sure listeners many listeners who've been to listeners many listeners who've been to listeners many listeners who've been to any kind of training or conflict type any kind of training or conflict type any kind of training or conflict type stuff in the the past 10 or 15 years stuff in the the past 10 or 15 years stuff in the the past 10 or 15 years you've encountered these, but I you've encountered these, but I you've encountered these, but I statements you know, there's an statements you know, there's an statements you know, there's an encouragement to begin, you know, when encouragement to begin, you know, when encouragement to begin, you know, when you're having a conflict conversation, you're having a conflict conversation, you're having a conflict conversation, make sure and and use I statements. make sure and and use I statements. make sure and and use I statements. Well, Well, Well, there is there is there is there is a legitimate reason why that's there is a legitimate reason why that's there is a legitimate reason why that's recommended because it is you do open recommended because it is you do open recommended because it is you do open the door to good good conversations if the door to good good conversations if the door to good good conversations if you start with your own experience. The you start with your own experience. The you start with your own experience. The problem is problem is problem is that saying, "Well, just use I that saying, "Well, just use I that saying, "Well, just use I statements." gets convoluted. So, it's statements." gets convoluted. So, it's statements." gets convoluted. So, it's like like like Can you explain I statements? Like give Can you explain I statements? Like give Can you explain I statements? Like give me an example. If you're going to me an example. If you're going to me an example. If you're going to correct me, what are you what are you correct me, what are you what are you correct me, what are you what are you saying?

saying? saying? Sure, for sure. So, like Sure, for sure. So, like Sure, for sure. So, like if I were to start by saying, "You You if I were to start by saying, "You You if I were to start by saying, "You You carry, you really were a jerk in that carry, you really were a jerk in that carry, you really were a jerk in that thing, right?" So, thing, right?" So, thing, right?" So, so that's a you statement. So, as so that's a you statement. So, as so that's a you statement. So, as opposed to an opposed to an opposed to an a good I statement would be something a good I statement would be something a good I statement would be something like, you know, "Carry, when we started like, you know, "Carry, when we started like, you know, "Carry, when we started the conversation and I said this and the conversation and I said this and the conversation and I said this and then that happened and I felt really then that happened and I felt really then that happened and I felt really uncomfortable in that situation and I uncomfortable in that situation and I uncomfortable in that situation and I was concerned about X, Y, or Z." So, I'm was concerned about X, Y, or Z." So, I'm was concerned about X, Y, or Z." So, I'm owning my experience, my feelings. owning my experience, my feelings. owning my experience, my feelings. The problem is that that's when it's The problem is that that's when it's The problem is that that's when it's done well. The problem is it's they get done well. The problem is it's they get done well. The problem is it's they get convoluted. It's so easy to be like convoluted. It's so easy to be like convoluted. It's so easy to be like "I feel like you're a jerk, Kerry. "I feel like you're a jerk, Kerry. "I feel like you're a jerk, Kerry. That's an I statement, but then and so That's an I statement, but then and so That's an I statement, but then and so you watch people actually tangle up in you watch people actually tangle up in you watch people actually tangle up in their head going, "Well, I feel that No, their head going, "Well, I feel that No, their head going, "Well, I feel that No, that I'm I'm aware you and it's just that I'm I'm aware you and it's just that I'm I'm aware you and it's just hard." So, hard." So, hard." So, they have a place, but they they have a place, but they they have a place, but they So, we don't recommend trying to think So, we don't recommend trying to think So, we don't recommend trying to think that way. There's better ways to go that way. There's better ways to go that way. There's better ways to go about it. And then the other is sandwich about it. And then the other is sandwich about it. And then the other is sandwich feedback that we're not a big fan of. feedback that we're not a big fan of. feedback that we're not a big fan of. So, a sandwich sandwich feedback for So, a sandwich sandwich feedback for So, a sandwich sandwich feedback for most of your listeners have heard it and most of your listeners have heard it and most of your listeners have heard it and probably have have used it. We say probably have have used it. We say probably have have used it. We say something nice and then you say what you something nice and then you say what you something nice and then you say what you really want to say and then you say really want to say and then you say really want to say and then you say something else nice. So, for example, if something else nice. So, for example, if something else nice. So, for example, if I said, you know, "Hey, um David, I've I said, you know, "Hey, um David, I've I said, you know, "Hey, um David, I've got a really thank you. You really did a got a really thank you. You really did a got a really thank you. You really did a beautiful job preparing us for the beautiful job preparing us for the beautiful job preparing us for the Courageous Leadership Experience in Courageous Leadership Experience in Courageous Leadership Experience in Asia. Um really went well." Thanks. Uh Asia. Um really went well." Thanks. Uh Asia. Um really went well." Thanks. Uh but your But but your leadership is but your But but your leadership is but your But but your leadership is derailing our company.

derailing our company. derailing our company. Um Um Um But you're kind of hot. Now, it's okay, But you're kind of hot. Now, it's okay, But you're kind of hot. Now, it's okay, we're married uh to each other. we're married uh to each other. we're married uh to each other. You know, that So, that you know, what You know, that So, that you know, what You know, that So, that you know, what is the only thing you're going to take is the only thing you're going to take is the only thing you're going to take away from that, right? I'm hot. So, that's the problem with that, you So, that's the problem with that, you know, and and sometimes with the an know, and and sometimes with the an know, and and sometimes with the an open-face sandwich is appropriate. If open-face sandwich is appropriate. If open-face sandwich is appropriate. If somebody comes to, you know, if Kerry uh somebody comes to, you know, if Kerry uh somebody comes to, you know, if Kerry uh I came to you and said, "Hey, thanks so I came to you and said, "Hey, thanks so I came to you and said, "Hey, thanks so much for having us on the show. What's much for having us on the show. What's much for having us on the show. What's one thing that really worked well for one thing that really worked well for one thing that really worked well for you on the show and what is one thing you on the show and what is one thing you on the show and what is one thing you would suggest we do better if we you would suggest we do better if we you would suggest we do better if we were to come on the show again?" And it were to come on the show again?" And it were to come on the show again?" And it would be very appropriate, right? Like would be very appropriate, right? Like would be very appropriate, right? Like to give give feedback like that. Um but to give give feedback like that. Um but to give give feedback like that. Um but if you're trying to get somebody's if you're trying to get somebody's if you're trying to get somebody's attention about an accountability attention about an accountability attention about an accountability conversation, like you want somebody to conversation, like you want somebody to conversation, like you want somebody to stop coming in late. stop coming in late. stop coming in late. You're not going to sandwich it. You're You're not going to sandwich it. You're You're not going to sandwich it. You're going to say, "Stop coming in late. This going to say, "Stop coming in late. This going to say, "Stop coming in late. This is it. This is the problem, right?" So. is it. This is the problem, right?" So. is it. This is the problem, right?" So. So, I statements generally not a good So, I statements generally not a good So, I statements generally not a good idea. And I I can see like I can idea. And I I can see like I can idea. And I I can see like I can imagine, you know, in your example, imagine, you know, in your example, imagine, you know, in your example, Kerry, you're a jerk. I could end up say Kerry, you're a jerk. I could end up say Kerry, you're a jerk. I could end up say or you know, Kerry, I experience your or you know, Kerry, I experience your or you know, Kerry, I experience your behavior. It seems like you're a jerk or behavior. It seems like you're a jerk or behavior. It seems like you're a jerk or something. I can say, "Well, I'm sorry something. I can say, "Well, I'm sorry something. I can say, "Well, I'm sorry you think I'm a jerk."

you think I'm a jerk." you think I'm a jerk." Right? It'd be a classic jerk thing to Right? It'd be a classic jerk thing to Right? It'd be a classic jerk thing to do. Uh I can see eye statements can get do. Uh I can see eye statements can get do. Uh I can see eye statements can get convoluted. I can see how the positive convoluted. I can see how the positive convoluted. I can see how the positive feedback sandwich or negative feedback feedback sandwich or negative feedback feedback sandwich or negative feedback sandwich can be because you're right, sandwich can be because you're right, sandwich can be because you're right, you only hear the negative. You don't you only hear the negative. You don't you only hear the negative. You don't really hear the positive. So, really hear the positive. So, really hear the positive. So, what what does work? What's a better cuz what what does work? What's a better cuz what what does work? What's a better cuz we're going to get super granular, but we're going to get super granular, but we're going to get super granular, but if you had an overarching strategy or if you had an overarching strategy or if you had an overarching strategy or summary of feedback that does work, what summary of feedback that does work, what summary of feedback that does work, what would you say it is? Yeah, if we're would you say it is? Yeah, if we're would you say it is? Yeah, if we're talking specifically about feedback, uh talking specifically about feedback, uh talking specifically about feedback, uh opening the conversation with your opening the conversation with your opening the conversation with your intent for the conversation. So, when intent for the conversation. So, when intent for the conversation. So, when we're getting into this super practical we're getting into this super practical we're getting into this super practical specific words to say, specific words to say, specific words to say, Mhm. one recommendation for feedback Mhm. one recommendation for feedback Mhm. one recommendation for feedback conversations is to open them with, you conversations is to open them with, you conversations is to open them with, you know, my intent for this conversation is know, my intent for this conversation is know, my intent for this conversation is to to to help us resolve this issue that our help us resolve this issue that our help us resolve this issue that our teams have been having so that and so teams have been having so that and so teams have been having so that and so it's my intent for this conversation is it's my intent for this conversation is it's my intent for this conversation is so that blank. And so my intent is so that blank. And so my intent is so that blank. And so my intent is whatever the thing is I want to achieve whatever the thing is I want to achieve whatever the thing is I want to achieve so that what's the positive outcome so that what's the positive outcome so that what's the positive outcome that's going to happen. So, if I'm that's going to happen. So, if I'm that's going to happen. So, if I'm having a performance conversation with having a performance conversation with having a performance conversation with one of my staff, one of my staff, one of my staff, I say, you know, my intent for this I say, you know, my intent for this I say, you know, my intent for this conversation is to help you with our, conversation is to help you with our, conversation is to help you with our, you know, parishioner experience so that you know, parishioner experience so that you know, parishioner experience so that they're having the good the best they're having the good the best they're having the good the best possible experience and you're growing possible experience and you're growing possible experience and you're growing in your career.

in your career. in your career. And and seen for all the skills that you And and seen for all the skills that you And and seen for all the skills that you do have, you know, so that might be an do have, you know, so that might be an do have, you know, so that might be an example of how I might approach a example of how I might approach a example of how I might approach a feedback conversation just opening the feedback conversation just opening the feedback conversation just opening the door to it. door to it. door to it. Once we've opened the door, that gives Once we've opened the door, that gives Once we've opened the door, that gives them a chance to step into that door them a chance to step into that door them a chance to step into that door with us like, Oh, yeah, I want that, with us like, Oh, yeah, I want that, with us like, Oh, yeah, I want that, too. too. too. Then there are some other things that we Then there are some other things that we Then there are some other things that we can add to the conversation. can add to the conversation. can add to the conversation. and then and then you want to be create and then and then you want to be create and then and then you want to be create some clarity about, you know, what is some clarity about, you know, what is some clarity about, you know, what is the behavior that you're noticing. So, the behavior that you're noticing. So, the behavior that you're noticing. So, I've noticed that you've been doing I've noticed that you've been doing I've noticed that you've been doing this. For example, and you give them the this. For example, and you give them the this. For example, and you give them the example, and then you show up really example, and then you show up really example, and then you show up really curious. How does this look from your curious. How does this look from your curious. How does this look from your perspective? Why do you think this is perspective? Why do you think this is perspective? Why do you think this is happening? It's so important to stay happening? It's so important to stay happening? It's so important to stay curious in these conversations because curious in these conversations because curious in these conversations because even if we think we know what's going even if we think we know what's going even if we think we know what's going on, sometimes we don't know what's going on, sometimes we don't know what's going on, sometimes we don't know what's going on. And so it and a lot of times we see on. And so it and a lot of times we see on. And so it and a lot of times we see managers, you know, they go in, you must managers, you know, they go in, you must managers, you know, they go in, you must stop this, this is this is why it's a stop this, this is this is why it's a stop this, this is this is why it's a problem, and they don't show up curious, problem, and they don't show up curious, problem, and they don't show up curious, and then the person shuts down and and then the person shuts down and and then the person shuts down and doesn't feel seen. doesn't feel seen. doesn't feel seen. So, start start by creating clarity and So, start start by creating clarity and So, start start by creating clarity and notice what you have seen, get curious, notice what you have seen, get curious, notice what you have seen, get curious, and then move the conversation to some and then move the conversation to some and then move the conversation to some level of commitment towards what's going level of commitment towards what's going level of commitment towards what's going to happen next and next steps. Question to happen next and next steps. Question to happen next and next steps. Question for you, and this is pretty granular, for you, and this is pretty granular, for you, and this is pretty granular, but a mentor who's been very influential but a mentor who's been very influential but a mentor who's been very influential in my life told me years ago, in my life told me years ago, in my life told me years ago, uh one of his values is believe the best uh one of his values is believe the best uh one of his values is believe the best and always assume the best about a and always assume the best about a and always assume the best about a situation. So, I'm frustrated with a situation. So, I'm frustrated with a situation. So, I'm frustrated with a team member's team member's team member's um um um performance, but one of the things my performance, but one of the things my performance, but one of the things my mentor said is always assume, always try mentor said is always assume, always try mentor said is always assume, always try to find the most charitable explanation.

to find the most charitable explanation. to find the most charitable explanation. Maybe she's overwhelmed. Maybe he's got Maybe she's overwhelmed. Maybe he's got Maybe she's overwhelmed. Maybe he's got something else going on. Maybe he did it something else going on. Maybe he did it something else going on. Maybe he did it and I'm not aware of it. Like it's and I'm not aware of it. Like it's and I'm not aware of it. Like it's actually done and completed, etc. Is actually done and completed, etc. Is actually done and completed, etc. Is that helpful when framing the that helpful when framing the that helpful when framing the conversation you're going to have to conversation you're going to have to conversation you're going to have to kind of have that charitable assumption, kind of have that charitable assumption, kind of have that charitable assumption, that best possible explanation? that best possible explanation? that best possible explanation? I think the answer is yes in the framing I think the answer is yes in the framing I think the answer is yes in the framing for us because of what it does to our for us because of what it does to our for us because of what it does to our emotional state. emotional state. emotional state. So, if if I can approach that So, if if I can approach that So, if if I can approach that conversation and say there are a conversation and say there are a conversation and say there are a potential range of possibilities here potential range of possibilities here potential range of possibilities here and I genuinely don't know. That's what and I genuinely don't know. That's what and I genuinely don't know. That's what you know, what Karen was saying about you know, what Karen was saying about you know, what Karen was saying about getting curious. getting curious. getting curious. So, we one of our favorite go-to, there So, we one of our favorite go-to, there So, we one of our favorite go-to, there are over 300 phrases in powerful phrases are over 300 phrases in powerful phrases are over 300 phrases in powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict, and for dealing with workplace conflict, and for dealing with workplace conflict, and one of our favorites is, "How does this one of our favorites is, "How does this one of our favorites is, "How does this look from your perspective?" What does look from your perspective?" What does look from your perspective?" What does this look like from where you are? this look like from where you are? this look like from where you are? And it's such a powerful question And it's such a powerful question And it's such a powerful question because if we can go in with the because if we can go in with the because if we can go in with the acknowledgement of we don't know. We acknowledgement of we don't know. We acknowledgement of we don't know. We have one perspective. We might imagine have one perspective. We might imagine have one perspective. We might imagine five or 10 others, but we ultimately five or 10 others, but we ultimately five or 10 others, but we ultimately don't know. don't know. don't know. So, to have that conversation with So, to have that conversation with So, to have that conversation with ourselves like you just described, ourselves like you just described, ourselves like you just described, Carey, can de-escalate some of our own Carey, can de-escalate some of our own Carey, can de-escalate some of our own stress and frustration around it. Here's stress and frustration around it. Here's stress and frustration around it. Here's what I can guarantee.

what I can guarantee. what I can guarantee. There's almost no chance that person There's almost no chance that person There's almost no chance that person woke up the morning, brushed their teeth woke up the morning, brushed their teeth woke up the morning, brushed their teeth thinking, "How can I really tick off thinking, "How can I really tick off thinking, "How can I really tick off Carey today?" Yeah. Yeah. Carey today?" Yeah. Yeah. Carey today?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we talk about And I think, you know, we talk about And I think, you know, we talk about this in one of our other books in in this in one of our other books in in this in one of our other books in in Winning Well, but the importance of Winning Well, but the importance of Winning Well, but the importance of landing in the end of confidence and landing in the end of confidence and landing in the end of confidence and humility. And you don't want to over humility. And you don't want to over humility. And you don't want to over index on the other side of things, too, index on the other side of things, too, index on the other side of things, too, and just be so humble that and so giving and just be so humble that and so giving and just be so humble that and so giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that everyone the benefit of the doubt that everyone the benefit of the doubt that you don't have the confidence to stand you don't have the confidence to stand you don't have the confidence to stand up for what and to speak the truth. And up for what and to speak the truth. And up for what and to speak the truth. And so, it's really showing up in these so, it's really showing up in these so, it's really showing up in these conversations with both. conversations with both. conversations with both. Well, and that's what I found so helpful Well, and that's what I found so helpful Well, and that's what I found so helpful about the way you frame conflict about the way you frame conflict about the way you frame conflict because, you know, we we're talking because, you know, we we're talking because, you know, we we're talking about this before we hit record. In my about this before we hit record. In my about this before we hit record. In my perception, pastors either come down perception, pastors either come down perception, pastors either come down like a hammer. It's like boom boom boom like a hammer. It's like boom boom boom like a hammer. It's like boom boom boom boom boom, you know, boom boom, you know, boom boom, you know, or or or they're so conflict avoidant. They don't they're so conflict avoidant. They don't they're so conflict avoidant. They don't deal with it or only after great deal with it or only after great deal with it or only after great reluctance. And I wonder if one of the reluctance. And I wonder if one of the reluctance. And I wonder if one of the reasons we delay so much, and even me, reasons we delay so much, and even me, reasons we delay so much, and even me, is there's no good third option. It's is there's no good third option. It's is there's no good third option. It's either I delay or I come down like a either I delay or I come down like a either I delay or I come down like a hammer, and I have the personality that hammer, and I have the personality that hammer, and I have the personality that can do that. I personally do.

can do that. I personally do. can do that. I personally do. And so, I delay and I procrastinate as a And so, I delay and I procrastinate as a And so, I delay and I procrastinate as a result. Any comment on that tendency or result. Any comment on that tendency or result. Any comment on that tendency or what else have you seen in your what else have you seen in your what else have you seen in your research? Yeah, well, there's a lot of research? Yeah, well, there's a lot of research? Yeah, well, there's a lot of research around that the exactly that research around that the exactly that research around that the exactly that tendency to describe either conflict tendency to describe either conflict tendency to describe either conflict avoidance or when I do I'm the hammer in avoidance or when I do I'm the hammer in avoidance or when I do I'm the hammer in faith-based organizations, nonprofit, faith-based organizations, nonprofit, faith-based organizations, nonprofit, any think anybody has a service any think anybody has a service any think anybody has a service orientation. orientation. orientation. You tend to see those polar opposites in You tend to see those polar opposites in You tend to see those polar opposites in the culture of those organizations tend the culture of those organizations tend the culture of those organizations tend There is a tendency without the tools There is a tendency without the tools There is a tendency without the tools that those things can happen. And so, that those things can happen. And so, that those things can happen. And so, that's why it's so important to have the that's why it's so important to have the that's why it's so important to have the tools because there is another way, tools because there is another way, tools because there is another way, which is to invest in the relationship which is to invest in the relationship which is to invest in the relationship and go for the results that need to be and go for the results that need to be and go for the results that need to be achieved, too. And you can absolutely do achieved, too. And you can absolutely do achieved, too. And you can absolutely do that. So, that's what all of the that. So, that's what all of the that. So, that's what all of the powerful phrases are about is powerful phrases are about is powerful phrases are about is absolutely having that third way. So, we absolutely having that third way. So, we absolutely having that third way. So, we do see that all the time. Mhm. do see that all the time. Mhm. do see that all the time. Mhm. Okay, so I pay attention to Okay, so I pay attention to Okay, so I pay attention to endorsements. Seth Godin said the 12 endorsements. Seth Godin said the 12 endorsements. Seth Godin said the 12 goats are worth the price of the book, goats are worth the price of the book, goats are worth the price of the book, and I'm like, all right, I got to I got and I'm like, all right, I got to I got and I'm like, all right, I got to I got to take a second look here. So much to take a second look here. So much to take a second look here. So much respect for Seth. Uh can you walk us respect for Seth. Uh can you walk us respect for Seth. Uh can you walk us through some of the greatest of all through some of the greatest of all through some of the greatest of all time, the goat phrases and the framework time, the goat phrases and the framework time, the goat phrases and the framework that you have for resolving workplace that you have for resolving workplace that you have for resolving workplace goat peeking in on my my window there?

goat peeking in on my my window there? goat peeking in on my my window there? Oh, there he is. There he is. There's Oh, there he is. There he is. There's Oh, there he is. There he is. There's the goat. I do see it. the goat. I do see it. the goat. I do see it. uh uh uh connection goat. So, there's a little connection goat. So, there's a little connection goat. So, there's a little Wi-Fi signal for connection. Wi-Fi signal for connection. Wi-Fi signal for connection. So, we have four dimensions of So, we have four dimensions of So, we have four dimensions of productive conflict or the opposite of productive conflict or the opposite of productive conflict or the opposite of productive conflict. Another word is productive conflict. Another word is productive conflict. Another word is collaboration, four dimensions of collaboration, four dimensions of collaboration, four dimensions of collaboration. And one is connection. collaboration. And one is connection. collaboration. And one is connection. Connection, are we connected as human Connection, are we connected as human Connection, are we connected as human beings? And then so, for each of these beings? And then so, for each of these beings? And then so, for each of these we have a couple of goats. So, you know, we have a couple of goats. So, you know, we have a couple of goats. So, you know, one is uh you know, I really care about one is uh you know, I really care about one is uh you know, I really care about and then you insert the thing that you and then you insert the thing that you and then you insert the thing that you really care about, that you genuinely really care about, that you genuinely really care about, that you genuinely really care about. I really care about really care about. I really care about really care about. I really care about you. I really care about our you. I really care about our you. I really care about our relationship. I really care about uh relationship. I really care about uh relationship. I really care about uh this project that we're working on this project that we're working on this project that we're working on together. Um and I'm confident that we together. Um and I'm confident that we together. Um and I'm confident that we can find a solution that we can work can find a solution that we can work can find a solution that we can work with here. Now, this one works great if with here. Now, this one works great if with here. Now, this one works great if you really do care. Uh but if you have a you really do care. Uh but if you have a you really do care. Uh but if you have a reputation of uh that they say, "Hey, reputation of uh that they say, "Hey, reputation of uh that they say, "Hey, I'm not sure that you actually care I'm not sure that you actually care I'm not sure that you actually care about me." That's not your best one. But about me." That's not your best one. But about me." That's not your best one. But that is the one a very powerful goat that is the one a very powerful goat that is the one a very powerful goat that you can use in almost any that you can use in almost any that you can use in almost any situation. Another is uh simply situation. Another is uh simply situation. Another is uh simply move from from that one, I just want to move from from that one, I just want to move from from that one, I just want to pause on this because of the specific pause on this because of the specific pause on this because of the specific audience we're talking with here is that audience we're talking with here is that audience we're talking with here is that sometimes we can assume. And I've sometimes we can assume. And I've sometimes we can assume. And I've coached many faith-based faith-based coached many faith-based faith-based coached many faith-based faith-based leaders in this context who can assume leaders in this context who can assume leaders in this context who can assume that their people have that that their people have that that their people have that understanding. Well, everyone cares understanding. Well, everyone cares understanding. Well, everyone cares about everyone here because of our about everyone here because of our about everyone here because of our mission, because of our DNA, because of mission, because of our DNA, because of mission, because of our DNA, because of who we are.

who we are. who we are. And the thing is you can't assume that. And the thing is you can't assume that. And the thing is you can't assume that. It has to be spoken. It has to be said. It has to be spoken. It has to be said. It has to be spoken. It has to be said. It has to be put into practice and with It has to be put into practice and with It has to be put into practice and with our hands and with our our hands and with our our hands and with our with our voice and all of that. It's not with our voice and all of that. It's not with our voice and all of that. It's not an assumption we can make because the an assumption we can make because the an assumption we can make because the it's still that dimension doesn't The it's still that dimension doesn't The it's still that dimension doesn't The connection doesn't happen unless we connection doesn't happen unless we connection doesn't happen unless we really truly invest in it. really truly invest in it. really truly invest in it. Yeah. And then another connection goat Yeah. And then another connection goat Yeah. And then another connection goat is simply tell me more. So if somebody is simply tell me more. So if somebody is simply tell me more. So if somebody comes, you know, bursting into your comes, you know, bursting into your comes, you know, bursting into your office and they're all fired up about office and they're all fired up about office and they're all fired up about something before you counter and share something before you counter and share something before you counter and share your point of view, your point of view, your point of view, say, "Wow. You know, it sounds like say, "Wow. You know, it sounds like say, "Wow. You know, it sounds like you're really upset. Tell me Tell me you're really upset. Tell me Tell me you're really upset. Tell me Tell me more about what's going on." And that more about what's going on." And that more about what's going on." And that will will will immediately de-escalate because they're immediately de-escalate because they're immediately de-escalate because they're like, "Oh, this person is actually going like, "Oh, this person is actually going like, "Oh, this person is actually going to listen to me and cares about what I to listen to me and cares about what I to listen to me and cares about what I have to say next." So those are a couple have to say next." So those are a couple have to say next." So those are a couple of connection goats. of connection goats. of connection goats. Uh Dave, you want to give a clarity goat Uh Dave, you want to give a clarity goat Uh Dave, you want to give a clarity goat some clarity goats? I'm sure. Carrie, some clarity goats? I'm sure. Carrie, some clarity goats? I'm sure. Carrie, you used to sound like you were starting you used to sound like you were starting you used to sound like you were starting to say something. No, I was going to say to say something. No, I was going to say to say something. No, I was going to say tell us tell us more, but tell us tell us more, but tell us tell us more, but Tell us more. Tell you more. Okay. Don't Tell us more. Tell you more. Okay. Don't Tell us more. Tell you more. Okay. Don't mind me. mind me. mind me. I'm practicing what what I just heard. I'm practicing what what I just heard. I'm practicing what what I just heard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I love it. So uh clarity, There you go. I love it. So uh clarity, There you go. I love it. So uh clarity, you know, Karen mentioned earlier that you know, Karen mentioned earlier that you know, Karen mentioned earlier that so many conflicts at work result from so many conflicts at work result from so many conflicts at work result from that that lack of shared understanding.

that that lack of shared understanding. that that lack of shared understanding. So clarity is do we have a shared So clarity is do we have a shared So clarity is do we have a shared understanding of success? And so one of understanding of success? And so one of understanding of success? And so one of the most important goats in this the most important goats in this the most important goats in this category is what would a successful category is what would a successful category is what would a successful outcome do for you? outcome do for you? outcome do for you? And this is so critical because so often And this is so critical because so often And this is so critical because so often we default to, "Well, I want this we default to, "Well, I want this we default to, "Well, I want this meeting to happen at this time and this meeting to happen at this time and this meeting to happen at this time and this way and and with these people." So okay, way and and with these people." So okay, way and and with these people." So okay, well, that's the thing that I'm well, that's the thing that I'm well, that's the thing that I'm immediately presenting. But if I can ask immediately presenting. But if I can ask immediately presenting. But if I can ask the person, "So what would a successful the person, "So what would a successful the person, "So what would a successful outcome do for you?" outcome do for you?" outcome do for you?" Now I find out why they want those Now I find out why they want those Now I find out why they want those things. And if I know that why, if I things. And if I know that why, if I things. And if I know that why, if I know that underlying interest, now I'm know that underlying interest, now I'm know that underlying interest, now I'm in a position to start genuinely in a position to start genuinely in a position to start genuinely creating some shared solutions. creating some shared solutions. creating some shared solutions. I share my interest transparently. I share my interest transparently. I share my interest transparently. Here's what a successful outcome would Here's what a successful outcome would Here's what a successful outcome would do for me. It would help me get home to do for me. It would help me get home to do for me. It would help me get home to see my family see my family see my family um by this time. And what it sounds like um by this time. And what it sounds like um by this time. And what it sounds like it would do for you is it would really it would do for you is it would really it would do for you is it would really give you you experience you need to take give you you experience you need to take give you you experience you need to take that next step in your career that that next step in your career that that next step in your career that you're looking for. Okay, well now that you're looking for. Okay, well now that you're looking for. Okay, well now that we know that, now we can start trying to we know that, now we can start trying to we know that, now we can start trying to craft some solutions that meet both of craft some solutions that meet both of craft some solutions that meet both of our needs. That is so helpful because our needs. That is so helpful because our needs. That is so helpful because the way I would have phrased the the way I would have phrased the the way I would have phrased the question is what would a successful question is what would a successful question is what would a successful outcome look like? But having read a lot outcome look like? But having read a lot outcome look like? But having read a lot of his work and just spent a couple of his work and just spent a couple of his work and just spent a couple hours interviewing William Ury, I'm sure hours interviewing William Ury, I'm sure hours interviewing William Ury, I'm sure you're familiar with his work. Um you're familiar with his work. Um you're familiar with his work. Um that's the difference between positions that's the difference between positions that's the difference between positions and interests, right? What would What and interests, right? What would What and interests, right? What would What would this look like is a position. It would this look like is a position. It would this look like is a position. It would look like this meeting is done by would look like this meeting is done by would look like this meeting is done by 3:00 so that I can get home and be with 3:00 so that I can get home and be with 3:00 so that I can get home and be with my family, but you will never get to so my family, but you will never get to so my family, but you will never get to so I can be home. Uh What would it do for I can be home. Uh What would it do for I can be home. Uh What would it do for you? That's a really helpful question

you? That's a really helpful question you? That's a really helpful question because it's it it does get to the why because it's it it does get to the why because it's it it does get to the why underneath the what. I just wanted to Is underneath the what. I just wanted to Is underneath the what. I just wanted to Is that a right understanding of that? that a right understanding of that? that a right understanding of that? 100% yep. Okay. Brilliant. 100% yep. Okay. Brilliant. 100% yep. Okay. Brilliant. Absolutely. Can you out align the the Absolutely. Can you out align the the Absolutely. Can you out align the the four-part framework that you have? Yeah, four-part framework that you have? Yeah, four-part framework that you have? Yeah, for sure. So starting with connection, for sure. So starting with connection, for sure. So starting with connection, that's the what Karen was talking about. that's the what Karen was talking about. that's the what Karen was talking about. Do we know one another as human beings? Do we know one another as human beings? Do we know one another as human beings? Um clarity. Um clarity. Um clarity. Do we have a shared understanding of Do we have a shared understanding of Do we have a shared understanding of success? Curiosity. Are we genuinely success? Curiosity. Are we genuinely success? Curiosity. Are we genuinely open to seeking out um different open to seeking out um different open to seeking out um different perspectives and other answers to the perspectives and other answers to the perspectives and other answers to the questions? And then commitment, which is questions? And then commitment, which is questions? And then commitment, which is not oh, I'm super committed. It's do we not oh, I'm super committed. It's do we not oh, I'm super committed. It's do we have a shared path forward together? Do have a shared path forward together? Do have a shared path forward together? Do we have a shared agreement and ways to we have a shared agreement and ways to we have a shared agreement and ways to practically hold ourselves accountable practically hold ourselves accountable practically hold ourselves accountable to what it is that we've committed to. to what it is that we've committed to. to what it is that we've committed to. So those are the four So those are the four So those are the four dimensions dimensions dimensions um that that we mentioned earlier. um that that we mentioned earlier. um that that we mentioned earlier. Can you give us a couple more goats from Can you give us a couple more goats from Can you give us a couple more goats from curiosity and commitment maybe? We curiosity and commitment maybe? We curiosity and commitment maybe? We covered the first two, but would love to covered the first two, but would love to covered the first two, but would love to hear a little more. Yeah, so curiosity. hear a little more. Yeah, so curiosity. hear a little more. Yeah, so curiosity. Uh one of our favorites is What does Uh one of our favorites is What does Uh one of our favorites is What does this look like from your perspective?

this look like from your perspective? this look like from your perspective? Mhm. Like you can hardly go wrong in any Mhm. Like you can hardly go wrong in any Mhm. Like you can hardly go wrong in any conflict by asking that. What does that conflict by asking that. What does that conflict by asking that. What does that look like from your perspective? And look like from your perspective? And look like from your perspective? And then let the person actually finish then let the person actually finish then let the person actually finish their sentence before you you comment, their sentence before you you comment, their sentence before you you comment, right? right? right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh you know, then commitment, you And uh you know, then commitment, you And uh you know, then commitment, you know, uh what is one next step we can know, uh what is one next step we can know, uh what is one next step we can agree on? agree on? agree on? And I love that one particularly if you And I love that one particularly if you And I love that one particularly if you are really coming at things from are really coming at things from are really coming at things from completely different worldviews. And you completely different worldviews. And you completely different worldviews. And you know, like we really have a fundamental know, like we really have a fundamental know, like we really have a fundamental problem here. Okay, so we're going to go problem here. Okay, so we're going to go problem here. Okay, so we're going to go in that kind of conflict, you're going in that kind of conflict, you're going in that kind of conflict, you're going to go around and around and around. But to go around and around and around. But to go around and around and around. But if you can say, okay, well what is you if you can say, okay, well what is you if you can say, okay, well what is you know, like what is one thing we can know, like what is one thing we can know, like what is one thing we can agree on? Okay, now you've got at least agree on? Okay, now you've got at least agree on? Okay, now you've got at least got some common ground and you've got some common ground and you've got some common ground and you've narrowed what you're going to continue narrowed what you're going to continue narrowed what you're going to continue to talk about. And another commitment to talk about. And another commitment to talk about. And another commitment goat is, okay, so let's schedule some goat is, okay, so let's schedule some goat is, okay, so let's schedule some time. We've agreed to this. time. We've agreed to this. time. We've agreed to this. Let's schedule some time to talk about Let's schedule some time to talk about Let's schedule some time to talk about how our solution is working. how our solution is working. how our solution is working. And this one is so important because if And this one is so important because if And this one is so important because if you put some a date on the calendar you put some a date on the calendar you put some a date on the calendar you're going to talk about it again.

you're going to talk about it again. you're going to talk about it again. We're both looking at that date that We're both looking at that date that We're both looking at that date that date going, okay, I better pay attention date going, okay, I better pay attention date going, okay, I better pay attention to how I'm showing up and meeting my to how I'm showing up and meeting my to how I'm showing up and meeting my commitment here. And if something commitment here. And if something commitment here. And if something doesn't happen, neither one of you have doesn't happen, neither one of you have doesn't happen, neither one of you have to summon the courage to start the to summon the courage to start the to summon the courage to start the conversation again, you've already conversation again, you've already conversation again, you've already scheduled it. And if it's working well, scheduled it. And if it's working well, scheduled it. And if it's working well, you don't have to remember to celebrate you don't have to remember to celebrate you don't have to remember to celebrate and say thank you. You've already and say thank you. You've already and say thank you. You've already scheduled it. So and that is one of the scheduled it. So and that is one of the scheduled it. So and that is one of the reasons so many conflicts just have keep reasons so many conflicts just have keep reasons so many conflicts just have keep recurring because they're not focusing recurring because they're not focusing recurring because they're not focusing on this moving towards a shared on this moving towards a shared on this moving towards a shared agreement. agreement. agreement. So you're dealing with workplace So you're dealing with workplace So you're dealing with workplace conflict, but it seems to me like this conflict, but it seems to me like this conflict, but it seems to me like this could be a good template for life. Is could be a good template for life. Is could be a good template for life. Is that Is that true? Like is this going to that Is that true? Like is this going to that Is that true? Like is this going to make your marriage a little bit better, make your marriage a little bit better, make your marriage a little bit better, your friendships a little bit better, your friendships a little bit better, your friendships a little bit better, that awkward, you know, family of origin that awkward, you know, family of origin that awkward, you know, family of origin conversation? Is it going to make it all conversation? Is it going to make it all conversation? Is it going to make it all better? better? better? I I certainly believe so. Karen and I I I certainly believe so. Karen and I I I certainly believe so. Karen and I practice these phrases ourselves. I'm practice these phrases ourselves. I'm practice these phrases ourselves. I'm always in process on these and I'll tell always in process on these and I'll tell always in process on these and I'll tell you that like just transparently, the you that like just transparently, the you that like just transparently, the one that I am one that I am one that I am continually working on is to use that continually working on is to use that continually working on is to use that goat that Karen mentioned. I'm curious goat that Karen mentioned. I'm curious goat that Karen mentioned. I'm curious how this looks from your your how this looks from your your how this looks from your your Um, I spent the first half of my life Um, I spent the first half of my life Um, I spent the first half of my life investing in clarity. I'm like, "Now I investing in clarity. I'm like, "Now I investing in clarity. I'm like, "Now I need to get curious."

need to get curious." need to get curious." And uh so I'm trying to do that more and And uh so I'm trying to do that more and And uh so I'm trying to do that more and more often, but the uh you know, and I more often, but the uh you know, and I more often, but the uh you know, and I I've been thinking about this as we've I've been thinking about this as we've I've been thinking about this as we've been talking to Carey in terms of been talking to Carey in terms of been talking to Carey in terms of volunteers. volunteers. volunteers. Because so often it's easy to think, Because so often it's easy to think, Because so often it's easy to think, "Well, I can't hold volunteers "Well, I can't hold volunteers "Well, I can't hold volunteers accountable. I can't give feedback. I accountable. I can't give feedback. I accountable. I can't give feedback. I can't" And the reality is that if we can't" And the reality is that if we can't" And the reality is that if we truly value their time and effort, the truly value their time and effort, the truly value their time and effort, the more clear we are and the more we more clear we are and the more we more clear we are and the more we practice that investment and make that practice that investment and make that practice that investment and make that time that they are investing in whatever time that they are investing in whatever time that they are investing in whatever that work is, that work is, that work is, the more we make that meaningful and the more we make that meaningful and the more we make that meaningful and productive, productive, productive, the more volunteers you're going to get the more volunteers you're going to get the more volunteers you're going to get as opposed to driving them away. So, as opposed to driving them away. So, as opposed to driving them away. So, it's like one of those things that we it's like one of those things that we it's like one of those things that we can use these phrases in so many can use these phrases in so many can use these phrases in so many different aspects of our work and life. different aspects of our work and life. different aspects of our work and life. Yeah, I also I'm thinking about uh Yeah, I also I'm thinking about uh Yeah, I also I'm thinking about uh religious education, too. And you know, religious education, too. And you know, religious education, too. And you know, when you've got volunteers teaching when you've got volunteers teaching when you've got volunteers teaching youth. Uh and sometimes that can be youth. Uh and sometimes that can be youth. Uh and sometimes that can be really challenging, right? To uh to have really challenging, right? To uh to have really challenging, right? To uh to have those conversations. You've got other those conversations. You've got other those conversations. You've got other people's kids. And uh you know, I was people's kids. And uh you know, I was people's kids. And uh you know, I was thinking about we the other day we got a thinking about we the other day we got a thinking about we the other day we got a note from Sebastian is our 18-year-old.

note from Sebastian is our 18-year-old. note from Sebastian is our 18-year-old. And his calculus teacher And his calculus teacher And his calculus teacher wrote wrote to Sebastian and said, "Can wrote wrote to Sebastian and said, "Can wrote wrote to Sebastian and said, "Can you ask your mama to give me some you ask your mama to give me some you ask your mama to give me some powerful phrases to deal with this powerful phrases to deal with this powerful phrases to deal with this classroom that I'm dealing with right classroom that I'm dealing with right classroom that I'm dealing with right now?" now?" now?" I And it was she needed she needed to I And it was she needed she needed to I And it was she needed she needed to create some uh connection, some clarity. create some uh connection, some clarity. create some uh connection, some clarity. And so I think you know, that it's you And so I think you know, that it's you And so I think you know, that it's you can use these across a variety of can use these across a variety of can use these across a variety of contexts. contexts. contexts. Wow. Wow. Wow. I want to go back for a second to I want to go back for a second to I want to go back for a second to volunteers because you actually touched volunteers because you actually touched volunteers because you actually touched on a nerve and I think you're right. A on a nerve and I think you're right. A on a nerve and I think you're right. A lot of leaders think they cannot hold lot of leaders think they cannot hold lot of leaders think they cannot hold volunteers accountable because we're not volunteers accountable because we're not volunteers accountable because we're not paying them. They're doing this out of paying them. They're doing this out of paying them. They're doing this out of the goodness of our heart. the goodness of our heart. the goodness of our heart. Have you seen in your framework? Cuz Have you seen in your framework? Cuz Have you seen in your framework? Cuz I've I've done quite a bit of teaching I've I've done quite a bit of teaching I've I've done quite a bit of teaching around this to leaders and my argument around this to leaders and my argument around this to leaders and my argument is exactly what you were saying, that is exactly what you were saying, that is exactly what you were saying, that you should hold volunteers accountable, you should hold volunteers accountable, you should hold volunteers accountable, but but but in my experience and I want to know if in my experience and I want to know if in my experience and I want to know if this is born out, the healthier and the this is born out, the healthier and the this is born out, the healthier and the higher capacity of the volunteer, the higher capacity of the volunteer, the higher capacity of the volunteer, the more they want clarity. The more they more they want clarity. The more they more they want clarity. The more they want accountability. That's true of your want accountability. That's true of your want accountability. That's true of your staff, but it's also true of your staff, but it's also true of your staff, but it's also true of your volunteers. If you can spell this out in volunteers. If you can spell this out in volunteers. If you can spell this out in detail and hold me accountable and call detail and hold me accountable and call detail and hold me accountable and call a big commitment out of me, a big commitment out of me, a big commitment out of me, I'm going to be a better volunteer as a I'm going to be a better volunteer as a I'm going to be a better volunteer as a result, and you will attract the top result, and you will attract the top result, and you will attract the top talent in your church. What what do you talent in your church. What what do you talent in your church. What what do you find in that area?

find in that area? find in that area? If I had a Roman candle or fireworks to If I had a Roman candle or fireworks to If I had a Roman candle or fireworks to go, "Yes!" and and celebrate and go, "Yes!" and and celebrate and go, "Yes!" and and celebrate and explode, I would. So, this is a explode, I would. So, this is a explode, I would. So, this is a something I am passionate about. One of something I am passionate about. One of something I am passionate about. One of my leadership beliefs, mantras is that my leadership beliefs, mantras is that my leadership beliefs, mantras is that everyone is a volunteer. everyone is a volunteer. everyone is a volunteer. Whether they are paid, whether they're Whether they are paid, whether they're Whether they are paid, whether they're compensated in some fashion or not, compensated in some fashion or not, compensated in some fashion or not, everyone is a volunteer because at the everyone is a volunteer because at the everyone is a volunteer because at the end of the day, we are all making a end of the day, we are all making a end of the day, we are all making a choice about how much effort, choice about how much effort, choice about how much effort, creativity, initiative, energy we're creativity, initiative, energy we're creativity, initiative, energy we're going to put in to whatever it is that going to put in to whatever it is that going to put in to whatever it is that we are doing in that moment. we are doing in that moment. we are doing in that moment. You You You you say, "Well, but if they're paid, you say, "Well, but if they're paid, you say, "Well, but if they're paid, they have to." Well, that's still a they have to." Well, that's still a they have to." Well, that's still a choice that they make, and they still choice that they make, and they still choice that they make, and they still choose how much of all that they're choose how much of all that they're choose how much of all that they're going to bring to the table. So, going to bring to the table. So, going to bring to the table. So, we have everyone's volunteering we have everyone's volunteering we have everyone's volunteering everything that you just said about everything that you just said about everything that you just said about the capacity and what and the the the capacity and what and the the the capacity and what and the the clarity and the value that that person clarity and the value that that person clarity and the value that that person experiences determines what they're experiences determines what they're experiences determines what they're going to put in 100% and I I I going to put in 100% and I I I going to put in 100% and I I I I cannot emphasize or say heck yeah I cannot emphasize or say heck yeah I cannot emphasize or say heck yeah enough. enough. enough. Hm. Karen, is Have you seen a similar Hm. Karen, is Have you seen a similar Hm. Karen, is Have you seen a similar thing? I I thing? I I thing? I I I Yes, and David is not sharing a story I Yes, and David is not sharing a story I Yes, and David is not sharing a story that he often shares that about when he that he often shares that about when he that he often shares that about when he was held accountable by a volunteer very was held accountable by a volunteer very was held accountable by a volunteer very early in his career.

early in his career. early in his career. Uh and she said, "Hey, if you don't stop Uh and she said, "Hey, if you don't stop Uh and she said, "Hey, if you don't stop wasting my time by by letting all these wasting my time by by letting all these wasting my time by by letting all these other bozos get away with all this other bozos get away with all this other bozos get away with all this stuff, I'm going to find someplace else stuff, I'm going to find someplace else stuff, I'm going to find someplace else to volunteer, you know?" And I think and to volunteer, you know?" And I think and to volunteer, you know?" And I think and I know how I how um I know how I how um I know how I how um I'm busy. I I'm a very busy person. I'm busy. I I'm a very busy person. I'm busy. I I'm a very busy person. And so, when I go to volunteer, I do not And so, when I go to volunteer, I do not And so, when I go to volunteer, I do not waste my time, right? So, I really do, waste my time, right? So, I really do, waste my time, right? So, I really do, you know, you know, you know, understand that story because I'm very understand that story because I'm very understand that story because I'm very willing to roll up my sleeves and help, willing to roll up my sleeves and help, willing to roll up my sleeves and help, but I want to know that it's a good use but I want to know that it's a good use but I want to know that it's a good use of my time to help. of my time to help. of my time to help. Well, I know we're going in different Well, I know we're going in different Well, I know we're going in different directions, but I would just think and directions, but I would just think and directions, but I would just think and for every leader listening right now, for every leader listening right now, for every leader listening right now, imagine having David and Karen as part imagine having David and Karen as part imagine having David and Karen as part of your congregation. Incredibly busy of your congregation. Incredibly busy of your congregation. Incredibly busy consultants, you know, probably very consultants, you know, probably very consultants, you know, probably very well paid for what you do. Uh, I the well paid for what you do. Uh, I the well paid for what you do. Uh, I the best way to get a couple like that best way to get a couple like that best way to get a couple like that involved is to give them a high involved is to give them a high involved is to give them a high challenge. This has got to be important, challenge. This has got to be important, challenge. This has got to be important, not just stand around. And if it's not just stand around. And if it's not just stand around. And if it's mopping floors, I'm sure you would do mopping floors, I'm sure you would do mopping floors, I'm sure you would do that, but like explain the why behind that, but like explain the why behind that, but like explain the why behind the what. Mhm. But, give them a a high the what. Mhm. But, give them a a high the what. Mhm. But, give them a a high level of responsibility, a clear plan.

level of responsibility, a clear plan. level of responsibility, a clear plan. Do your homework. Don't miss deadlines Do your homework. Don't miss deadlines Do your homework. Don't miss deadlines with them. And, you know, negotiate the with them. And, you know, negotiate the with them. And, you know, negotiate the workload. So, if it becomes too much, we workload. So, if it becomes too much, we workload. So, if it becomes too much, we can have a conversation about it. But, can have a conversation about it. But, can have a conversation about it. But, if you do that, you'll have more high if you do that, you'll have more high if you do that, you'll have more high capacity volunteers. So, uh, so glad we capacity volunteers. So, uh, so glad we capacity volunteers. So, uh, so glad we touched on that. So, you talk about body touched on that. So, you talk about body touched on that. So, you talk about body language and conflict, too. This is language and conflict, too. This is language and conflict, too. This is something I really struggle with because something I really struggle with because something I really struggle with because my default resting face is not good. Um, my default resting face is not good. Um, my default resting face is not good. Um, it looks like I'm perpetually angry at it looks like I'm perpetually angry at it looks like I'm perpetually angry at the world. So, I try to smile in the world. So, I try to smile in the world. So, I try to smile in conversations like this because conversations like this because conversations like this because otherwise I'm just going to like otherwise I'm just going to like otherwise I'm just going to like And, I'm happy on the inside, but I And, I'm happy on the inside, but I And, I'm happy on the inside, but I haven't told my face. So, haven't told my face. So, haven't told my face. So, what what what role does body language what what what role does body language what what what role does body language play and what advice would you have for play and what advice would you have for play and what advice would you have for us in that field? us in that field? us in that field? So, you know, the your people will So, you know, the your people will So, you know, the your people will believe your body language more so than believe your body language more so than believe your body language more so than the words that are coming out of your the words that are coming out of your the words that are coming out of your mouth. If if they're going to And mouth. If if they're going to And mouth. If if they're going to And there's a lot of research that says there's a lot of research that says there's a lot of research that says that. They, you know, that So, and I'm that. They, you know, that So, and I'm that. They, you know, that So, and I'm thinking about a thinking about a thinking about a you know, how do how you show up. So, you know, how do how you show up. So, you know, how do how you show up. So, it's it's your posture, right? Are you it's it's your posture, right? Are you it's it's your posture, right? Are you closed off? Are you open? It is what is closed off? Are you open? It is what is closed off? Are you open? It is what is your face doing? Uh, it you know, your face doing? Uh, it you know, your face doing? Uh, it you know, fortunately now, I mean, not that I love fortunately now, I mean, not that I love fortunately now, I mean, not that I love being online all the time, but you do being online all the time, but you do being online all the time, but you do get to see your own face quite a bit.

get to see your own face quite a bit. get to see your own face quite a bit. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And, you also get to other people can And, you also get to other people can And, you also get to other people can see your reaction. And and something see your reaction. And and something see your reaction. And and something David and I have really had to to work David and I have really had to to work David and I have really had to to work with. It was interesting when we first with. It was interesting when we first with. It was interesting when we first started started started working together, working together, working together, we it was hard because we had both run we it was hard because we had both run we it was hard because we had both run our own businesses and then we fell in our own businesses and then we fell in our own businesses and then we fell in love and got married and merged our love and got married and merged our love and got married and merged our businesses together and we did not do businesses together and we did not do businesses together and we did not do things always the same and we were things always the same and we were things always the same and we were working with a client very early on and working with a client very early on and working with a client very early on and David did something that really ticked David did something that really ticked David did something that really ticked me off and he pulled me aside me off and he pulled me aside me off and he pulled me aside Legitimately so, legitimately. Legitimately so, legitimately. Legitimately so, legitimately. And he pulled me aside and he's like, And he pulled me aside and he's like, And he pulled me aside and he's like, "That look on your face, "That look on your face, "That look on your face, you have to change it. You can be as mad you have to change it. You can be as mad you have to change it. You can be as mad at me as you want, but not your at me as you want, but not your at me as you want, but not your everybody is watching the way you were everybody is watching the way you were everybody is watching the way you were looking at me right now, right?" And looking at me right now, right?" And looking at me right now, right?" And there were not words coming out of my there were not words coming out of my there were not words coming out of my mouth except to him. But he's like and mouth except to him. But he's like and mouth except to him. But he's like and he was 100% right. So, what is your face he was 100% right. So, what is your face he was 100% right. So, what is your face saying to the person in the conflict, saying to the person in the conflict, saying to the person in the conflict, but what is the but what is the but what is the your your face and body language saying your your face and body language saying your your face and body language saying to the bystanders as well?

Um, Um, you know, so what would you say to those you know, so what would you say to those you know, so what would you say to those of us I mean, this is very real in my of us I mean, this is very real in my of us I mean, this is very real in my life. Like in the last 24 hours, my wife life. Like in the last 24 hours, my wife life. Like in the last 24 hours, my wife and I got into a disagreement and she and I got into a disagreement and she and I got into a disagreement and she goes, "Well, it wasn't just you didn't goes, "Well, it wasn't just you didn't goes, "Well, it wasn't just you didn't say anything, but it was your body say anything, but it was your body say anything, but it was your body language." And I'm like, "I don't have language." And I'm like, "I don't have language." And I'm like, "I don't have control over my body language. Like you control over my body language. Like you control over my body language. Like you got to go with my mouth, not like what got to go with my mouth, not like what got to go with my mouth, not like what I'm saying, not what I'm doing." But I'm saying, not what I'm doing." But I'm saying, not what I'm doing." But clearly I have some work to do. So, if clearly I have some work to do. So, if clearly I have some work to do. So, if you're like me you're like me you're like me and the body language is not always in and the body language is not always in and the body language is not always in sync with sync with sync with what your heart or mind are doing, what what your heart or mind are doing, what what your heart or mind are doing, what tips do you do you have for those of us tips do you do you have for those of us tips do you do you have for those of us who struggle in this area? who struggle in this area? who struggle in this area? Yeah, so this is a great opportunity to Yeah, so this is a great opportunity to Yeah, so this is a great opportunity to use some of these use some of these use some of these conversation tools that we've been conversation tools that we've been conversation tools that we've been suggesting. So, suggesting. So, suggesting. So, you know, today or another day where you know, today or another day where you know, today or another day where it's not in the middle of that argument, it's not in the middle of that argument, it's not in the middle of that argument, it could be totally and Karen and I have it could be totally and Karen and I have it could be totally and Karen and I have to have these conversations with each to have these conversations with each to have these conversations with each other sometimes, right? It's just human other sometimes, right? It's just human other sometimes, right? It's just human relationships. And we can do it at work, relationships. And we can do it at work, relationships. And we can do it at work, too. too. too. Um, so you know, I noticed I heard the Um, so you know, I noticed I heard the Um, so you know, I noticed I heard the other day that you were talking about my other day that you were talking about my other day that you were talking about my body language and how I was coming body language and how I was coming body language and how I was coming across. I am curious how that actually across. I am curious how that actually across. I am curious how that actually looks from your perspective. Can you looks from your perspective. Can you looks from your perspective. Can you give me some examples? give me some examples? give me some examples? Um what was it I was doing? Um how was I Um what was it I was doing? Um how was I Um what was it I was doing? Um how was I coming across? What did you perceive in coming across? What did you perceive in coming across? What did you perceive in that Okay. So that we can at least know.

that Okay. So that we can at least know. that Okay. So that we can at least know. And once we have data, we can start to And once we have data, we can start to And once we have data, we can start to make decisions about what's possible, make decisions about what's possible, make decisions about what's possible, what's not, what changes do we want to what's not, what changes do we want to what's not, what changes do we want to make, what changes do we not want to make, what changes do we not want to make, what changes do we not want to make, all those sorts of things. But if make, all those sorts of things. But if make, all those sorts of things. But if I can start by getting curious and I can start by getting curious and I can start by getting curious and getting that information, that can be getting that information, that can be getting that information, that can be helpful. And then I think another thing helpful. And then I think another thing helpful. And then I think another thing is can you watch, you know, you you is can you watch, you know, you you is can you watch, you know, you you know, is there a recording that you can know, is there a recording that you can know, is there a recording that you can watch and what actually happens? And so watch and what actually happens? And so watch and what actually happens? And so that you That's another place to get that you That's another place to get that you That's another place to get data. But then, you know, part of it is data. But then, you know, part of it is data. But then, you know, part of it is to pay attention to a couple things. Are to pay attention to a couple things. Are to pay attention to a couple things. Are you really looking the person in the you really looking the person in the you really looking the person in the eye? eye? eye? Do you Are you smiling? You know, are Do you Are you smiling? You know, are Do you Are you smiling? You know, are you you know, not like you you know, not like you you know, not like you know, not a a big fake smile that you know, not a a big fake smile that you know, not a a big fake smile that I'm really really angry at you right now I'm really really angry at you right now I'm really really angry at you right now you know, but a genuine Are you really you know, but a genuine Are you really you know, but a genuine Are you really and and part of it is what is it that and and part of it is what is it that and and part of it is what is it that you want your body language to say? And you want your body language to say? And you want your body language to say? And then the other thing is I would just then the other thing is I would just then the other thing is I would just watch your watch your watch your closed or open. I mean, that's the closed or open. I mean, that's the closed or open. I mean, that's the simplest way, right? Because you can in simplest way, right? Because you can in simplest way, right? Because you can in most rooms most rooms most rooms Like I I was just so I was just working Like I I was just so I was just working Like I I was just so I was just working with the executive team the other day with the executive team the other day with the executive team the other day and I said to one of the most senior and I said to one of the most senior and I said to one of the most senior leaders, I said, "Did you notice what leaders, I said, "Did you notice what leaders, I said, "Did you notice what happened Let's call him Joe." I said, happened Let's call him Joe." I said, happened Let's call him Joe." I said, "Did you notice what happened to Joe at "Did you notice what happened to Joe at "Did you notice what happened to Joe at dinner?" And I said, "Joe was sitting dinner?" And I said, "Joe was sitting dinner?" And I said, "Joe was sitting like this." And if you're just like this." And if you're just like this." And if you're just listening, it's he was like literally listening, it's he was like literally listening, it's he was like literally curled up in a little ball curled up in a little ball curled up in a little ball whe- at the at the dinner table when a whe- at the at the dinner table when a whe- at the at the dinner table when a certain topic came up.

certain topic came up. certain topic came up. And um And um And um he said, "I didn't notice." So part of he said, "I didn't notice." So part of he said, "I didn't notice." So part of that is, you know, what that is, you know, what that is, you know, what being aware of your own body language, being aware of your own body language, being aware of your own body language, but also being aware of what the what but also being aware of what the what but also being aware of what the what what you're saying is doing to the body what you're saying is doing to the body what you're saying is doing to the body language of the others in the room. language of the others in the room. language of the others in the room. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Okay. I want to get to the practical, Okay. I want to get to the practical, Okay. I want to get to the practical, but I got to ask you one more I mean, but I got to ask you one more I mean, but I got to ask you one more I mean, this is very practical, but there's some this is very practical, but there's some this is very practical, but there's some very specific things I want to cover very specific things I want to cover very specific things I want to cover with you. with you. with you. A lot of church leaders uh A lot of church leaders uh A lot of church leaders uh struggle and they want to quit because struggle and they want to quit because struggle and they want to quit because conflict is too difficult. It's just conflict is too difficult. It's just conflict is too difficult. It's just like this church or this organization or like this church or this organization or like this church or this organization or this company is always fighting, they're this company is always fighting, they're this company is always fighting, they're always arguing, it's in the culture. always arguing, it's in the culture. always arguing, it's in the culture. What advice do you have for them and any What advice do you have for them and any What advice do you have for them and any thoughts on thoughts on thoughts on when there's too much conflict to when there's too much conflict to when there's too much conflict to continue? continue? continue? It's a great question. I think and It's a great question. I think and It's a great question. I think and there's two I think two aspects to this there's two I think two aspects to this there's two I think two aspects to this because there's because there's because there's when do you quit a conflict? I'm going when do you quit a conflict? I'm going when do you quit a conflict? I'm going to leave that for Karen because the to leave that for Karen because the to leave that for Karen because the first thing that you talked about is if first thing that you talked about is if first thing that you talked about is if I'm in this culture there's just so much I'm in this culture there's just so much I'm in this culture there's just so much conflict and everybody's arguing about conflict and everybody's arguing about conflict and everybody's arguing about everything it's just kind of the nature everything it's just kind of the nature everything it's just kind of the nature of things. From a leadership of things. From a leadership of things. From a leadership perspective, perspective, perspective, there's a leadership opportunity there there's a leadership opportunity there there's a leadership opportunity there to help focus everybody's vision on what to help focus everybody's vision on what to help focus everybody's vision on what it is that matters most, on what we're it is that matters most, on what we're it is that matters most, on what we're trying to achieve, on the the work that trying to achieve, on the the work that trying to achieve, on the the work that we're doing. One of my favorite examples we're doing. One of my favorite examples we're doing. One of my favorite examples if if you've seen the movie Apollo 13 if if you've seen the movie Apollo 13 if if you've seen the movie Apollo 13 and then they record this and this is and then they record this and this is and then they record this and this is what actually happened you read the what actually happened you read the what actually happened you read the biography, you know, they're trying to biography, you know, they're trying to biography, you know, they're trying to get this damaged spaceship back to earth get this damaged spaceship back to earth get this damaged spaceship back to earth and the astronauts are all arguing with and the astronauts are all arguing with and the astronauts are all arguing with each other

each other each other and and they're distracted taking and and they're distracted taking and and they're distracted taking pictures out the the window and pictures out the the window and pictures out the the window and everything and finally Captain Lovell everything and finally Captain Lovell everything and finally Captain Lovell says, "Hey guys, I want to get back home. I want to get back home. Like that's our mission. Like that's our mission. Like that's our mission. Like what are we doing here? He like to Like what are we doing here? He like to Like what are we doing here? He like to and call us all back to the big picture and call us all back to the big picture and call us all back to the big picture and that is the job that every leader and that is the job that every leader and that is the job that every leader has, right? Without a vision the people has, right? Without a vision the people has, right? Without a vision the people perish, right? So it's that perish, right? So it's that perish, right? So it's that getting that vision back in front of us getting that vision back in front of us getting that vision back in front of us and helping we need to have conflict. We and helping we need to have conflict. We and helping we need to have conflict. We need to have productive collaborative need to have productive collaborative need to have productive collaborative decision conversations decision conversations decision conversations that should all be taking us in that that should all be taking us in that that should all be taking us in that direction. So if it's not about going in direction. So if it's not about going in direction. So if it's not about going in that direction, that direction, that direction, you know, there's an opportunity to call you know, there's an opportunity to call you know, there's an opportunity to call us back to that. us back to that. us back to that. Yeah, and to have the conversation about Yeah, and to have the conversation about Yeah, and to have the conversation about the habits that are going to have you be the habits that are going to have you be the habits that are going to have you be more collaborative. Uh, one of the more collaborative. Uh, one of the more collaborative. Uh, one of the things that we have is a a card deck things that we have is a a card deck things that we have is a a card deck that we use with teams that go with the that we use with teams that go with the that we use with teams that go with the four dimensions and on every card there four dimensions and on every card there four dimensions and on every card there is a habit. And so one of the things you is a habit. And so one of the things you is a habit. And so one of the things you can do is you know to think about all can do is you know to think about all can do is you know to think about all right, what are the one two or three right, what are the one two or three right, what are the one two or three habits that if we did them consistently habits that if we did them consistently habits that if we did them consistently would create better collaboration and would create better collaboration and would create better collaboration and less conflict. And have people talk less conflict. And have people talk less conflict. And have people talk about that. And I make an agreement and about that. And I make an agreement and about that. And I make an agreement and alignment like we're not going to do alignment like we're not going to do alignment like we're not going to do these destructive behaviors instead these destructive behaviors instead these destructive behaviors instead we're going to do these things. And I we're going to do these things. And I we're going to do these things. And I think sometimes just having the think sometimes just having the think sometimes just having the conversation before you're in an in what conversation before you're in an in what conversation before you're in an in what we call an ace, an acute conflict we call an ace, an acute conflict we call an ace, an acute conflict emergency. You know, that this is how emergency. You know, that this is how emergency. You know, that this is how we're going to roll. You know, Seth we're going to roll. You know, Seth we're going to roll. You know, Seth Godin you love people like us do things Godin you love people like us do things Godin you love people like us do things like this. That's culture. And so on a like this. That's culture. And so on a like this. That's culture. And so on a team can we align that on this is how

team can we align that on this is how team can we align that on this is how we're going to go. People like us do we're going to go. People like us do we're going to go. People like us do things like this. And we don't do that. things like this. And we don't do that. things like this. And we don't do that. You know, and so I think that's one way You know, and so I think that's one way You know, and so I think that's one way to do it. And then David alluded to you to do it. And then David alluded to you to do it. And then David alluded to you know, when to quit a conflict, you know, know, when to quit a conflict, you know, know, when to quit a conflict, you know, sometimes I I do have a good friend who sometimes I I do have a good friend who sometimes I I do have a good friend who is is is a minister who did quit. And you know, a minister who did quit. And you know, a minister who did quit. And you know, he is now in a different congregation he is now in a different congregation he is now in a different congregation and it's going much better. You know, so and it's going much better. You know, so and it's going much better. You know, so sometimes you know, so have I have I sometimes you know, so have I have I sometimes you know, so have I have I tried? tried? tried? Is one question. Have I really tried to Is one question. Have I really tried to Is one question. Have I really tried to have the conversation or is the have the conversation or is the have the conversation or is the conversation only been in my head and I conversation only been in my head and I conversation only been in my head and I never even never even never even gave the other people on the staff or gave the other people on the staff or gave the other people on the staff or the congregants an opportunity to engage the congregants an opportunity to engage the congregants an opportunity to engage in this conflict. Is it impacting my in this conflict. Is it impacting my in this conflict. Is it impacting my mental health, right? Like am am I going mental health, right? Like am am I going mental health, right? Like am am I going home so stressed that I am weeping into home so stressed that I am weeping into home so stressed that I am weeping into the paws of my Labradoodle? Like that's the paws of my Labradoodle? Like that's the paws of my Labradoodle? Like that's not good. not good. not good. Another question to ask yourself is am I Another question to ask yourself is am I Another question to ask yourself is am I do I like who I'm showing up as right in do I like who I'm showing up as right in do I like who I'm showing up as right in this, you know, if if all of a sudden this, you know, if if all of a sudden this, you know, if if all of a sudden you are feeling like you are the jerk in you are feeling like you are the jerk in you are feeling like you are the jerk in these conversations that you are taking these conversations that you are taking these conversations that you are taking on these negative behaviors. You don't on these negative behaviors. You don't on these negative behaviors. You don't like who you are. You do not feel like like who you are. You do not feel like like who you are. You do not feel like you are a good shepherd or steward of you are a good shepherd or steward of you are a good shepherd or steward of what you're of the message that you're what you're of the message that you're what you're of the message that you're trying to to to give. That's a that's a trying to to to give. That's a that's a trying to to to give. That's a that's a sign. And then another question to ask I sign. And then another question to ask I sign. And then another question to ask I think is a really important one which is think is a really important one which is think is a really important one which is is is there a pattern? Like do I keep is is there a pattern? Like do I keep is is there a pattern? Like do I keep showing up and and and showing up and and and showing up and and and am I having the same kind of conflicts am I having the same kind of conflicts am I having the same kind of conflicts at home as I'm having at church as I'm at home as I'm having at church as I'm at home as I'm having at church as I'm having, you know, in my community? Then having, you know, in my community? Then having, you know, in my community? Then maybe the common denominator is maybe the common denominator is maybe the common denominator is something that you're doing, right? And

something that you're doing, right? And something that you're doing, right? And that leaving the situation isn't going that leaving the situation isn't going that leaving the situation isn't going to fix it. You're going to have to fix to fix it. You're going to have to fix to fix it. You're going to have to fix the behavior. the behavior. the behavior. So we have we have a whole chapter on So we have we have a whole chapter on So we have we have a whole chapter on how do you decide whether to to quit a how do you decide whether to to quit a how do you decide whether to to quit a conflict, you know. Mhm. All right. conflict, you know. Mhm. All right. conflict, you know. Mhm. All right. Well, I want to do a bit of a lightning Well, I want to do a bit of a lightning Well, I want to do a bit of a lightning round and go through some different round and go through some different round and go through some different scenarios cuz it's so helpful. Another scenarios cuz it's so helpful. Another scenarios cuz it's so helpful. Another frequent question I get is love your frequent question I get is love your frequent question I get is love your podcast, love your writings. I'm not the podcast, love your writings. I'm not the podcast, love your writings. I'm not the senior leader. What do I do with a senior leader. What do I do with a senior leader. What do I do with a senior leader who's being difficult? So senior leader who's being difficult? So senior leader who's being difficult? So I want to ask some boss questions. Um I want to ask some boss questions. Um I want to ask some boss questions. Um what's your advice for a micromanaging what's your advice for a micromanaging what's your advice for a micromanaging boss? You got a boss who doesn't give boss? You got a boss who doesn't give boss? You got a boss who doesn't give you any freedom. What would you do? All right. So here's that David's All right. So here's that David's looking at me cuz I this is my favorite looking at me cuz I this is my favorite looking at me cuz I this is my favorite Uh Uh Uh so because so because so because we often will be in in organizations and we often will be in in organizations and we often will be in in organizations and we'll hear from both sides of the story. we'll hear from both sides of the story. we'll hear from both sides of the story. So we'll go to we'll we'll be doing So we'll go to we'll we'll be doing So we'll go to we'll we'll be doing focus groups or something and somebody focus groups or something and somebody focus groups or something and somebody say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a say, "Oh my gosh, my boss is such a micromanager." And then we go to the to micromanager." And then we go to the to micromanager." And then we go to the to the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, the boss and he'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I wish I didn't have to micromanage my I wish I didn't have to micromanage my I wish I didn't have to micromanage my team. They're never accountable, right?"

team. They're never accountable, right?" team. They're never accountable, right?" And so the first question is are you And so the first question is are you And so the first question is are you check out be ask yourself this question. check out be ask yourself this question. check out be ask yourself this question. Like are they really a micromanager or Like are they really a micromanager or Like are they really a micromanager or is there something about your is there something about your is there something about your performance that is causing them to performance that is causing them to performance that is causing them to having to micromanage you? And so you having to micromanage you? And so you having to micromanage you? And so you and we have a series of questions to go and we have a series of questions to go and we have a series of questions to go through to ask that question. But let's through to ask that question. But let's through to ask that question. But let's assume they really are a micromanager. assume they really are a micromanager. assume they really are a micromanager. Then you want to have lean in and have Then you want to have lean in and have Then you want to have lean in and have that conversation. And so David, do you that conversation. And so David, do you that conversation. And so David, do you want to go do a few of those? want to go do a few of those? want to go do a few of those? Uh I'm sorry, Karen. I I had taken my Uh I'm sorry, Karen. I I had taken my Uh I'm sorry, Karen. I I had taken my thoughts in a completely different thoughts in a completely different thoughts in a completely different direction. You keep direction. You keep direction. You keep So it's so it So it's so it So it's so it you know, one of the things that you can you know, one of the things that you can you know, one of the things that you can really do there is hey, I've noticed. really do there is hey, I've noticed. really do there is hey, I've noticed. Like I I've I've noticed that you have Like I I've I've noticed that you have Like I I've I've noticed that you have checked in five times this week about checked in five times this week about checked in five times this week about this project. Mhm. And I'm curious, this project. Mhm. And I'm curious, this project. Mhm. And I'm curious, what's going on? And why this what does what's going on? And why this what does what's going on? And why this what does this look like from your perspective? this look like from your perspective? this look like from your perspective? You know, am I not giving you updates You know, am I not giving you updates You know, am I not giving you updates that you need? Are you concerned that I that you need? Are you concerned that I that you need? Are you concerned that I don't have the skill sets to do this? don't have the skill sets to do this? don't have the skill sets to do this? What is causing you to check in on this? What is causing you to check in on this? What is causing you to check in on this? Because Because Because here's the impact. This is what it looks here's the impact. This is what it looks here's the impact. This is what it looks like to be me in this scenario. Every like to be me in this scenario. Every like to be me in this scenario. Every time you stop and ask me to run a report time you stop and ask me to run a report time you stop and ask me to run a report or do a check in and I got to go check or do a check in and I got to go check or do a check in and I got to go check in with all these people to give you an in with all these people to give you an in with all these people to give you an update is time that I'm not spent update is time that I'm not spent update is time that I'm not spent working on the spending working on the working on the spending working on the working on the spending working on the work. And so, you know, that's a way one work. And so, you know, that's a way one work. And so, you know, that's a way one of the ways is to just actually have of the ways is to just actually have of the ways is to just actually have that conversation. What can I do to to that conversation. What can I do to to that conversation. What can I do to to support you here so that you feel more support you here so that you feel more support you here so that you feel more comfortable in letting me own this?

comfortable in letting me own this? comfortable in letting me own this? Anything else I'm micromanaging, David? Anything else I'm micromanaging, David? Anything else I'm micromanaging, David? Or we don't have to Or we don't have to Or we don't have to belabor belabor belabor the last thing I would add on top of in the last thing I would add on top of in the last thing I would add on top of in addition to what Karen said is is once addition to what Karen said is is once addition to what Karen said is is once you know that, then then specifically you know that, then then specifically you know that, then then specifically make your commitment and ask for what make your commitment and ask for what make your commitment and ask for what you need and and you know, now that you you need and and you know, now that you you need and and you know, now that you know what their problem is or what know what their problem is or what know what their problem is or what they're trying to solve for, I think they're trying to solve for, I think they're trying to solve for, I think that's the last thing that Karen was that's the last thing that Karen was that's the last thing that Karen was saying. I'll just flush that out of saying. I'll just flush that out of saying. I'll just flush that out of well, how about we do this? I'll get you well, how about we do this? I'll get you well, how about we do this? I'll get you your report at the beginning of the day, your report at the beginning of the day, your report at the beginning of the day, at the end of the day, in between, at the end of the day, in between, at the end of the day, in between, unless there's an emergency, can you unless there's an emergency, can you unless there's an emergency, can you leave it alone and I'll make sure and leave it alone and I'll make sure and leave it alone and I'll make sure and get you your briefing you need or get you your briefing you need or get you your briefing you need or whatever it is. whatever it is. whatever it is. What about a boss who steals your ideas What about a boss who steals your ideas What about a boss who steals your ideas and takes credit for them? and takes credit for them? and takes credit for them? This is uh an interesting one um This is uh an interesting one um This is uh an interesting one um in that a lot of times we just were in that a lot of times we just were in that a lot of times we just were talking with a client uh group last week talking with a client uh group last week talking with a client uh group last week and one of the people at the table said, and one of the people at the table said, and one of the people at the table said, "If you're an idea stealer, you know "If you're an idea stealer, you know "If you're an idea stealer, you know it." it." it." And it was so interesting, said with so And it was so interesting, said with so And it was so interesting, said with so much much much vehemence. And the reality is, no, they vehemence. And the reality is, no, they vehemence. And the reality is, no, they often don't know that they're an idea often don't know that they're an idea often don't know that they're an idea stealer. People are moving quickly and stealer. People are moving quickly and stealer. People are moving quickly and they hear the idea and then they build they hear the idea and then they build they hear the idea and then they build on it. And if they're creative and a on it. And if they're creative and a on it. And if they're creative and a visionary type, like they're they've visionary type, like they're they've visionary type, like they're they've built 17 layers on top of that idea and built 17 layers on top of that idea and built 17 layers on top of that idea and run with it. They don't know where the run with it. They don't know where the run with it. They don't know where the kernel came from and they're just off kernel came from and they're just off kernel came from and they're just off and going.

and going. and going. And so, to come back to that and have And so, to come back to that and have And so, to come back to that and have that conversation, you can open the door that conversation, you can open the door that conversation, you can open the door with a with a with a you know, "Hey, I noticed that." And you know, "Hey, I noticed that." And you know, "Hey, I noticed that." And that's another stem that we like for a that's another stem that we like for a that's another stem that we like for a lot of these conversations. lot of these conversations. lot of these conversations. "I noticed that this happened and I'm "I noticed that this happened and I'm "I noticed that this happened and I'm sure that wasn't the intent. I noticed sure that wasn't the intent. I noticed sure that wasn't the intent. I noticed that you had proposed this idea. that you had proposed this idea. that you had proposed this idea. And you know, that's something I came up And you know, that's something I came up And you know, that's something I came up with and I want to make sure that people with and I want to make sure that people with and I want to make sure that people are understanding my contribution. Can I are understanding my contribution. Can I are understanding my contribution. Can I present that? Can I share my So, getting present that? Can I share my So, getting present that? Can I share my So, getting the clarity, asking for what you need the clarity, asking for what you need the clarity, asking for what you need and that is one way to approach that. and that is one way to approach that. and that is one way to approach that. Yeah, you know, you could say, "Hey, do Yeah, you know, you could say, "Hey, do Yeah, you know, you could say, "Hey, do you do you think so-and-so, like your you do you think so-and-so, like your you do you think so-and-so, like your boss, boss, boss, understands my role in this?" You know, understands my role in this?" You know, understands my role in this?" You know, like so it's your boss who steals your like so it's your boss who steals your like so it's your boss who steals your idea and like looks like they're taking idea and like looks like they're taking idea and like looks like they're taking credit. You know, "Hey, do you think credit. You know, "Hey, do you think credit. You know, "Hey, do you think your boss actually understands my role your boss actually understands my role your boss actually understands my role in it because you know, I really care in it because you know, I really care in it because you know, I really care about my reputation and this is about my reputation and this is about my reputation and this is something I'm super proud of." And then something I'm super proud of." And then something I'm super proud of." And then ask for what you need. "Do you think the ask for what you need. "Do you think the ask for what you need. "Do you think the next time this topic comes up, you can next time this topic comes up, you can next time this topic comes up, you can either share a little bit about my role either share a little bit about my role either share a little bit about my role or give me a piece of the conversation or give me a piece of the conversation or give me a piece of the conversation so that I can um share share some of my so that I can um share share some of my so that I can um share share some of my insights about this?" Mhm. Uh you know, insights about this?" Mhm. Uh you know, insights about this?" Mhm. Uh you know, one of the I used to teach a MBA course one of the I used to teach a MBA course one of the I used to teach a MBA course uh that and the elective was dealing uh that and the elective was dealing uh that and the elective was dealing with difficult people and the students with difficult people and the students with difficult people and the students had to bring a difficult person to be had to bring a difficult person to be had to bring a difficult person to be their project for the whole semester.

their project for the whole semester. their project for the whole semester. 99% of the people picked their boss and 99% of the people picked their boss and 99% of the people picked their boss and almost everyone came with the same almost everyone came with the same almost everyone came with the same problem, my boss steals credit for my problem, my boss steals credit for my problem, my boss steals credit for my ideas. And what we found is once they ideas. And what we found is once they ideas. And what we found is once they actually went and had these actually went and had these actually went and had these conversations, most of the time the boss conversations, most of the time the boss conversations, most of the time the boss is like, at least they said, "I was is like, at least they said, "I was is like, at least they said, "I was aware that I you know, I didn't mean to aware that I you know, I didn't mean to aware that I you know, I didn't mean to do it." But whether they meant to or do it." But whether they meant to or do it." But whether they meant to or not, they fixed it because they was not, they fixed it because they was not, they fixed it because they was called out to have the conversation and called out to have the conversation and called out to have the conversation and they stopped doing it and gave the they stopped doing it and gave the they stopped doing it and gave the people more credit. people more credit. people more credit. Moody bosses. I may have been guilty of Moody bosses. I may have been guilty of Moody bosses. I may have been guilty of this in the early years of leadership this in the early years of leadership this in the early years of leadership until I learned about self-regulating until I learned about self-regulating until I learned about self-regulating and self-awareness. and self-awareness. and self-awareness. Uh moody bosses, tips there. I had a I Uh moody bosses, tips there. I had a I Uh moody bosses, tips there. I had a I had a CEO one time who talk about moody had a CEO one time who talk about moody had a CEO one time who talk about moody and he literally said David, there are and he literally said David, there are and he literally said David, there are people laughing in the break room. people laughing in the break room. people laughing in the break room. What's going on? Don't they know how What's going on? Don't they know how What's going on? Don't they know how important this is? You know, and this was a very You know, and this was a very mission-driven. This is not like you mission-driven. This is not like you mission-driven. This is not like you might be listening going, okay, well, might be listening going, okay, well, might be listening going, okay, well, that's not my church or whatever, but that's not my church or whatever, but that's not my church or whatever, but this is a very mission-driven this is a very mission-driven this is a very mission-driven organization and organization and organization and in in moments of stress and things like in in moments of stress and things like in in moments of stress and things like we can all get there. So, you know, we can all get there. So, you know, we can all get there. So, you know, going back to our dimensions, the first going back to our dimensions, the first going back to our dimensions, the first dimension is start with connection.

dimension is start with connection. dimension is start with connection. You don't have to agree with how your You don't have to agree with how your You don't have to agree with how your boss is feeling or perceiving the world, boss is feeling or perceiving the world, boss is feeling or perceiving the world, but you can reflect it. We call this but you can reflect it. We call this but you can reflect it. We call this reflect to connect. reflect to connect. reflect to connect. Hey, sounds like this is really Hey, sounds like this is really Hey, sounds like this is really aggravating to you. Sounds like you're aggravating to you. Sounds like you're aggravating to you. Sounds like you're having a really hard time with XYZ having a really hard time with XYZ having a really hard time with XYZ situation right now. Is that right? situation right now. Is that right? situation right now. Is that right? And just to connect at that human level And just to connect at that human level And just to connect at that human level and reflect back the emotion that they and reflect back the emotion that they and reflect back the emotion that they are putting out into the world does two are putting out into the world does two are putting out into the world does two things. One, it lessens the intensity of things. One, it lessens the intensity of things. One, it lessens the intensity of that emotion. that emotion. that emotion. It's for them. Second, they are seen It's for them. Second, they are seen It's for them. Second, they are seen with that emotion, which now creates with that emotion, which now creates with that emotion, which now creates awareness for them so that they can awareness for them so that they can awareness for them so that they can start to do some of that self-regulation start to do some of that self-regulation start to do some of that self-regulation if they have that in their toolkit. So, if they have that in their toolkit. So, if they have that in their toolkit. So, that's a starting place is we can build that's a starting place is we can build that's a starting place is we can build some connection. Then you can actually some connection. Then you can actually some connection. Then you can actually get into talking about it. Uh so, once get into talking about it. Uh so, once get into talking about it. Uh so, once you've you've connected, say, you know, you've you've connected, say, you know, you've you've connected, say, you know, I'm noticing let's say it's a pattern. I'm noticing let's say it's a pattern. I'm noticing let's say it's a pattern. You know, I've noticed that the last You know, I've noticed that the last You know, I've noticed that the last three Fridays as we're getting to the three Fridays as we're getting to the three Fridays as we're getting to the end of the week and preparing for the end of the week and preparing for the end of the week and preparing for the the weekend and services and all that the weekend and services and all that the weekend and services and all that this is happening. this is happening. this is happening. And with specific remember on this date And with specific remember on this date And with specific remember on this date here's what happened. Remember we were here's what happened. Remember we were here's what happened. Remember we were in that meeting and then so-and-so said in that meeting and then so-and-so said in that meeting and then so-and-so said this and then you went this and then you went this and then you went And you know, so forth. So, we call And you know, so forth. So, we call And you know, so forth. So, we call attention to it. And then I'm wondering attention to it. And then I'm wondering attention to it. And then I'm wondering what's going on for you here. I'm what's going on for you here. I'm what's going on for you here. I'm curious how this looks from your curious how this looks from your curious how this looks from your perspective. What's So, to draw out the perspective. What's So, to draw out the perspective. What's So, to draw out the source of the frustration source of the frustration source of the frustration and again, sometimes that sensitizes the and again, sometimes that sensitizes the and again, sometimes that sensitizes the person to oh my goodness, I need to act person to oh my goodness, I need to act person to oh my goodness, I need to act differently here.

differently here. differently here. If they're an equipped leader, other If they're an equipped leader, other If they're an equipped leader, other times it may be like, okay, let's try to times it may be like, okay, let's try to times it may be like, okay, let's try to solve for that." This is so helpful because the number This is so helpful because the number one thing I get when I talk to leaders one thing I get when I talk to leaders one thing I get when I talk to leaders is a shrug of resignation. This is just is a shrug of resignation. This is just is a shrug of resignation. This is just the way it is. Or the way it is. Or the way it is. Or I have this book on moody bosses. I want I have this book on moody bosses. I want I have this book on moody bosses. I want to give it to my boss. And I'm like, to give it to my boss. And I'm like, to give it to my boss. And I'm like, "Yeah, that never really works." But "Yeah, that never really works." But "Yeah, that never really works." But what I love about your strategies are what I love about your strategies are what I love about your strategies are they put the onus back on the person they put the onus back on the person they put the onus back on the person with the grievance. They say you've got with the grievance. They say you've got with the grievance. They say you've got a role in this. You have a potential a role in this. You have a potential a role in this. You have a potential solution here. And that is terrifying. solution here. And that is terrifying. solution here. And that is terrifying. It is way easier to complain about your It is way easier to complain about your It is way easier to complain about your boss every night than it is boss every night than it is boss every night than it is to try to make the situation better. So, to try to make the situation better. So, to try to make the situation better. So, I want to continue indecisive bosses. I want to continue indecisive bosses. I want to continue indecisive bosses. And this ties in a little bit cuz you do And this ties in a little bit cuz you do And this ties in a little bit cuz you do hear this. You have a driven young hear this. You have a driven young hear this. You have a driven young leader who's like, "Go, go, go, go, go." leader who's like, "Go, go, go, go, go." leader who's like, "Go, go, go, go, go." But the I'm in my 50s. So, the boss is But the I'm in my 50s. So, the boss is But the I'm in my 50s. So, the boss is in his 50s and he's just kind of in his 50s and he's just kind of in his 50s and he's just kind of coasting and he's lost some of the coasting and he's lost some of the coasting and he's lost some of the drive. What do you get when you get an drive. What do you get when you get an drive. What do you get when you get an indecisive or what do you do when you indecisive or what do you do when you indecisive or what do you do when you have an indecisive or a bit of a lazy have an indecisive or a bit of a lazy have an indecisive or a bit of a lazy leader that you're under?

leader that you're under? leader that you're under? Yeah, so you want to start with Yeah, so you want to start with Yeah, so you want to start with connection. And so, I'm going to go connection. And so, I'm going to go connection. And so, I'm going to go through the dimensions, right? So, start through the dimensions, right? So, start through the dimensions, right? So, start with connection. I really care about, with connection. I really care about, with connection. I really care about, right? I care I care about this work right? I care I care about this work right? I care I care about this work that we're doing. What's something that that we're doing. What's something that that we're doing. What's something that you really care about. And then, you you really care about. And then, you you really care about. And then, you know, and then I think it's really know, and then I think it's really know, and then I think it's really showing up curious about what is causing showing up curious about what is causing showing up curious about what is causing your hesitation here. your hesitation here. your hesitation here. Uh because one of the things, and I have Uh because one of the things, and I have Uh because one of the things, and I have dealt with a lot of indecisive bosses in dealt with a lot of indecisive bosses in dealt with a lot of indecisive bosses in my career. So, I was at a Fortune 30 my career. So, I was at a Fortune 30 my career. So, I was at a Fortune 30 company for uh 20 years before founded company for uh 20 years before founded company for uh 20 years before founded Let's Grow Leaders. Let's Grow Leaders. Let's Grow Leaders. And, you know, I had good ones and bad And, you know, I had good ones and bad And, you know, I had good ones and bad ones. And some of the ones that were ones. And some of the ones that were ones. And some of the ones that were indecisive, I found like they often they indecisive, I found like they often they indecisive, I found like they often they were dealing with a lot of threat were dealing with a lot of threat were dealing with a lot of threat political pressures that I did not fully political pressures that I did not fully political pressures that I did not fully understand. And when I got to understand. And when I got to understand. And when I got to understand, well, what is causing their understand, well, what is causing their understand, well, what is causing their hesitation, then I knew what I could do hesitation, then I knew what I could do hesitation, then I knew what I could do to bring them additional data to support to bring them additional data to support to bring them additional data to support to manage the the political things that to manage the the political things that to manage the the political things that they were so worried about. And then they were so worried about. And then they were so worried about. And then another one is to, you know say, "Hey, another one is to, you know say, "Hey, another one is to, you know say, "Hey, there's two ways we could go here. We there's two ways we could go here. We there's two ways we could go here. We could go with option A could go with option A could go with option A or we could go with option B.

or we could go with option B. or we could go with option B. Um my suggestion is" so you're bringing Um my suggestion is" so you're bringing Um my suggestion is" so you're bringing clarity. "Um my suggestion is we go with clarity. "Um my suggestion is we go with clarity. "Um my suggestion is we go with option A because of ba ba ba ba ba." option A because of ba ba ba ba ba." option A because of ba ba ba ba ba." Like here's your rationale. Mhm. Um and Like here's your rationale. Mhm. Um and Like here's your rationale. Mhm. Um and then move towards commitment. Do you you then move towards commitment. Do you you then move towards commitment. Do you you know is that something you can agree to know is that something you can agree to know is that something you can agree to here?" So you're making it easier and here?" So you're making it easier and here?" So you're making it easier and then the other my fav- one of my then the other my fav- one of my then the other my fav- one of my favorite things to do. This was like my favorite things to do. This was like my favorite things to do. This was like my go-to when I was in in these roles was go-to when I was in in these roles was go-to when I was in in these roles was to to to make make make make it easier for them to um to to make make it easier for them to um to to make make it easier for them to um to to make a decision by making the decisions a decision by making the decisions a decision by making the decisions smaller. Like, "Okay, so we don't need smaller. Like, "Okay, so we don't need smaller. Like, "Okay, so we don't need to roll this out for all of our to roll this out for all of our to roll this out for all of our locations. locations. locations. Uh but maybe if we just pilot this at Uh but maybe if we just pilot this at Uh but maybe if we just pilot this at this one church for this one service and this one church for this one service and this one church for this one service and see how that will go, right?" And and to see how that will go, right?" And and to see how that will go, right?" And and to make that easier also can help. make that easier also can help. make that easier also can help. Mhm. What about the lazy boss? The boss who's coasting. And I would The boss who's coasting. And I would start by asking myself, like what are start by asking myself, like what are start by asking myself, like what are the behaviors? And this is in any kind the behaviors? And this is in any kind the behaviors? And this is in any kind of feedback situation is to acknowledge of feedback situation is to acknowledge of feedback situation is to acknowledge that as soon as we say a word like lazy, that as soon as we say a word like lazy, that as soon as we say a word like lazy, we are making an interpretation. Mhm. Uh we are making an interpretation. Mhm. Uh we are making an interpretation. Mhm. Uh so so so what is it that I am perceiving as lazy?

what is it that I am perceiving as lazy? what is it that I am perceiving as lazy? And one of the techniques that we'd And one of the techniques that we'd And one of the techniques that we'd recommend that you do. Don't actually do recommend that you do. Don't actually do recommend that you do. Don't actually do this in practice. This is an imagination this in practice. This is an imagination this in practice. This is an imagination exercise. But imagine that you pulled exercise. But imagine that you pulled exercise. But imagine that you pulled out your phone and hit that record video out your phone and hit that record video out your phone and hit that record video record button and recorded the record button and recorded the record button and recorded the situation. The meeting, the you know, situation. The meeting, the you know, situation. The meeting, the you know, whatever it is that's happening. whatever it is that's happening. whatever it is that's happening. And even if you had to like record it And even if you had to like record it And even if you had to like record it all day and then imaginary put it on all day and then imaginary put it on all day and then imaginary put it on fast forward and play and then narrate fast forward and play and then narrate fast forward and play and then narrate what you're observing. What is it that's what you're observing. What is it that's what you're observing. What is it that's happening? happening? happening? Oh, so I gave them that paper with all Oh, so I gave them that paper with all Oh, so I gave them that paper with all of the information they'd asked for and of the information they'd asked for and of the information they'd asked for and then they put it in a drawer and they then they put it in a drawer and they then they put it in a drawer and they never looked at it again. Mhm. Oh, okay. never looked at it again. Mhm. Oh, okay. never looked at it again. Mhm. Oh, okay. So what is it you're describing because So what is it you're describing because So what is it you're describing because that's the information you want to bring that's the information you want to bring that's the information you want to bring to the conversation. If you bring an to the conversation. If you bring an to the conversation. If you bring an accusation of you know, hey boss, you're accusation of you know, hey boss, you're accusation of you know, hey boss, you're lazy. Well, that's just not going to lazy. Well, that's just not going to lazy. Well, that's just not going to work, right? Now we're about work, right? Now we're about work, right? Now we're about stuff's packed up. That was a good last stuff's packed up. That was a good last stuff's packed up. That was a good last day. day. day. Now we're about to that's a you Now we're about to that's a you Now we're about to that's a you statement. So, where do we start? All statement. So, where do we start? All statement. So, where do we start? All right, so hey, my intent for this right, so hey, my intent for this right, so hey, my intent for this conversation is I want to make sure that conversation is I want to make sure that conversation is I want to make sure that we are serving our our congregants or we are serving our our congregants or we are serving our our congregants or that we are being as that we are being as that we are being as as as as our stewardship of our financial our stewardship of our financial our stewardship of our financial resources is just primo. Whatever it is resources is just primo. Whatever it is resources is just primo. Whatever it is that you're that you're that you're interested in.

interested in. interested in. And so I want to have this conversation And so I want to have this conversation And so I want to have this conversation so we can accomplish that so that we're so we can accomplish that so that we're so we can accomplish that so that we're doing our best for whoever. doing our best for whoever. doing our best for whoever. All right, so my intent is so that I'm All right, so my intent is so that I'm All right, so my intent is so that I'm going to open the door to the going to open the door to the going to open the door to the conversation and then conversation and then conversation and then using some of the language we talked using some of the language we talked using some of the language we talked about earlier. Hey, I noticed that when about earlier. Hey, I noticed that when about earlier. Hey, I noticed that when I gave you that information that it went I gave you that information that it went I gave you that information that it went in a drawer and we never had the in a drawer and we never had the in a drawer and we never had the conversation again. And then ask for conversation again. And then ask for conversation again. And then ask for what you want. what you want. what you want. I am wondering can we make a commitment I am wondering can we make a commitment I am wondering can we make a commitment to review that on Friday to get that to review that on Friday to get that to review that on Friday to get that information by XYZ date. information by XYZ date. information by XYZ date. And in that process I can also you know, And in that process I can also you know, And in that process I can also you know, does that work for you? I'm curious if does that work for you? I'm curious if does that work for you? I'm curious if there's any other considerations I'm not there's any other considerations I'm not there's any other considerations I'm not aware of or that I need to think about. aware of or that I need to think about. aware of or that I need to think about. So, I'm showing up with So, I'm showing up with So, I'm showing up with sincerely describing what's going on sincerely describing what's going on sincerely describing what's going on with my intent. I'm getting curious with my intent. I'm getting curious with my intent. I'm getting curious about what might be going on for them, about what might be going on for them, about what might be going on for them, but then I'm asking for the commitment but then I'm asking for the commitment but then I'm asking for the commitment that will help us to move forward. that will help us to move forward. that will help us to move forward. And I'm doing all of that without any And I'm doing all of that without any And I'm doing all of that without any judgment about their behavior. It's the judgment about their behavior. It's the judgment about their behavior. It's the facts that are neutral. May be lazy, may facts that are neutral. May be lazy, may facts that are neutral. May be lazy, may have other things like Karen said that I have other things like Karen said that I have other things like Karen said that I have no idea what's what's going on.

have no idea what's what's going on. have no idea what's what's going on. Any thoughts on the inconsistent boss? Any thoughts on the inconsistent boss? Any thoughts on the inconsistent boss? One day she's super happy, the next One day she's super happy, the next One day she's super happy, the next she's down, one day she's, you know, she's down, one day she's, you know, she's down, one day she's, you know, pretty easygoing, the next she's angry. pretty easygoing, the next she's angry. pretty easygoing, the next she's angry. Thoughts about that? Thoughts about that? Thoughts about that? Well, Well, Well, so I'll tell you about I this so I had a so I'll tell you about I this so I had a so I'll tell you about I this so I had a um um um my very first little little my very first little little my very first little little self-published book that I wrote way self-published book that I wrote way self-published book that I wrote way back long ago was called Overcoming an back long ago was called Overcoming an back long ago was called Overcoming an imperfect boss and it was somewhat imperfect boss and it was somewhat imperfect boss and it was somewhat inspired by this one imperfect boss inspired by this one imperfect boss inspired by this one imperfect boss because we're all because we are all because we're all because we are all because we're all because we are all imperfect, right? We're all just human imperfect, right? We're all just human imperfect, right? We're all just human beings doing the best we can with what beings doing the best we can with what beings doing the best we can with what we can do, right? But she we can do, right? But she we can do, right? But she was that way. Like sometimes she was the was that way. Like sometimes she was the was that way. Like sometimes she was the best boss ever, sometimes she was so best boss ever, sometimes she was so best boss ever, sometimes she was so frustrating and very so moody but also frustrating and very so moody but also frustrating and very so moody but also inconsistent. And so we gave her a inconsistent. And so we gave her a inconsistent. And so we gave her a Barbie two Barbie dolls Barbie two Barbie dolls Barbie two Barbie dolls and one was on the one Barbie doll was and one was on the one Barbie doll was and one was on the one Barbie doll was like we messed up the hair we put magic like we messed up the hair we put magic like we messed up the hair we put magic marker all over the the face and then marker all over the the face and then marker all over the the face and then the other one was like totally cuz she the other one was like totally cuz she the other one was like totally cuz she wore pearls all the time. So the one was wore pearls all the time. So the one was wore pearls all the time. So the one was totally immaculate with the pearls and totally immaculate with the pearls and totally immaculate with the pearls and we said look we said look we said look there are two yous there are two yous there are two yous and sometimes you're this and sometimes and sometimes you're this and sometimes and sometimes you're this and sometimes you're that and and she had a good sense you're that and and she had a good sense you're that and and she had a good sense of humor and so we said put these out on of humor and so we said put these out on of humor and so we said put these out on your desk just so we know which one your desk just so we know which one your desk just so we know which one we're dealing with and we're dealing with and we're dealing with and and so we just and we made it like we and so we just and we made it like we and so we just and we made it like we made we brought it to her attention but made we brought it to her attention but made we brought it to her attention but in a funny way. Now I don't think that in a funny way. Now I don't think that in a funny way. Now I don't think that would work for every boss but basically would work for every boss but basically would work for every boss but basically it was it was saying hey I've noticed it was it was saying hey I've noticed it was it was saying hey I've noticed I've noticed I've noticed this pattern I've noticed I've noticed this pattern I've noticed I've noticed this pattern and let's talk about it.

and let's talk about it. and let's talk about it. You know and so you know I think you You know and so you know I think you You know and so you know I think you have to think about the what approach have to think about the what approach have to think about the what approach will work but mostly it's like with any will work but mostly it's like with any will work but mostly it's like with any of these other behaviors, you know, of these other behaviors, you know, of these other behaviors, you know, showing up with genuine connection showing up with genuine connection showing up with genuine connection getting curious about what's going on getting curious about what's going on getting curious about what's going on and figuring out what you can do to be and figuring out what you can do to be and figuring out what you can do to be helpful. I will tell you sometimes I I helpful. I will tell you sometimes I I helpful. I will tell you sometimes I I can get very riled up and what my team can get very riled up and what my team can get very riled up and what my team could do to be helpful would be to do could do to be helpful would be to do could do to be helpful would be to do what they're supposed to be doing, what they're supposed to be doing, what they're supposed to be doing, right? right? right? So So So you know like part of that like why is you know like part of that like why is you know like part of that like why is your boss moody? Is there is there your boss moody? Is there is there your boss moody? Is there is there genuine performance something that's genuine performance something that's genuine performance something that's happening here? happening here? happening here? Well and I love how it puts power back Well and I love how it puts power back Well and I love how it puts power back in the hands of the complainer, you in the hands of the complainer, you in the hands of the complainer, you know, rather than just roll your eyes know, rather than just roll your eyes know, rather than just roll your eyes every day and complain about work. every day and complain about work. every day and complain about work. Let's talk about co-workers. You're on a Let's talk about co-workers. You're on a Let's talk about co-workers. You're on a team together and so you know this team together and so you know this team together and so you know this brought me back to high school projects brought me back to high school projects brought me back to high school projects which even my kids hated I hated them. which even my kids hated I hated them. which even my kids hated I hated them. But, there's usually, you know, five But, there's usually, you know, five But, there's usually, you know, five people on this project and one or two do people on this project and one or two do people on this project and one or two do all the work and everybody else is lazy. all the work and everybody else is lazy. all the work and everybody else is lazy. Uh that translates into the adult Uh that translates into the adult Uh that translates into the adult workplace as well. What do you do with a workplace as well. What do you do with a workplace as well. What do you do with a lazy coworker?

lazy coworker? lazy coworker? Yeah, yeah, and I care I want to come Yeah, yeah, and I care I want to come Yeah, yeah, and I care I want to come back to something you've said a couple back to something you've said a couple back to something you've said a couple of times here about empowering the of times here about empowering the of times here about empowering the person who has the observation, right? person who has the observation, right? person who has the observation, right? And whether it's with our boss, whether And whether it's with our boss, whether And whether it's with our boss, whether it's with a coworker, it's with a coworker, it's with a coworker, and that that can feel frightening, that and that that can feel frightening, that and that that can feel frightening, that can feel like, "Oh my gosh, this is can feel like, "Oh my gosh, this is can feel like, "Oh my gosh, this is terrifying." I think was the word you terrifying." I think was the word you terrifying." I think was the word you said. said. said. Harder than complaining. Right? And the Harder than complaining. Right? And the Harder than complaining. Right? And the reality is nothing changes if nothing reality is nothing changes if nothing reality is nothing changes if nothing changes. And if you're the one with the changes. And if you're the one with the changes. And if you're the one with the observation, then you have you're the observation, then you have you're the observation, then you have you're the only one with the opportunity to say or only one with the opportunity to say or only one with the opportunity to say or do something about it. Because if we're do something about it. Because if we're do something about it. Because if we're being fair to the other human beings in being fair to the other human beings in being fair to the other human beings in our life, our life, our life, they have limited perspectives just like they have limited perspectives just like they have limited perspectives just like you do. you do. you do. And so, the world's going to look And so, the world's going to look And so, the world's going to look different. It doesn't mean that your different. It doesn't mean that your different. It doesn't mean that your observation and your interpretation observation and your interpretation observation and your interpretation isn't correct. isn't correct. isn't correct. But, most of the time there's more to it But, most of the time there's more to it But, most of the time there's more to it than that. And so, giving other people than that. And so, giving other people than that. And so, giving other people that same benefit of the doubt like you that same benefit of the doubt like you that same benefit of the doubt like you mentioned earlier that we give mentioned earlier that we give mentioned earlier that we give ourselves, ourselves, ourselves, uh and therefore, having the uh and therefore, having the uh and therefore, having the conversation conversation conversation from a place that's non-judgmental, but from a place that's non-judgmental, but from a place that's non-judgmental, but it's bringing the the connection, that's it's bringing the the connection, that's it's bringing the the connection, that's bringing the clarity, that's bringing bringing the clarity, that's bringing bringing the clarity, that's bringing the curiosity, like the curiosity, like the curiosity, like that's what makes all of this possible.

that's what makes all of this possible. that's what makes all of this possible. So, you've mentioned it a couple times. So, you've mentioned it a couple times. So, you've mentioned it a couple times. I just wanted to elaborate on that as we I just wanted to elaborate on that as we I just wanted to elaborate on that as we Yeah, and ask for what you ask for what Yeah, and ask for what you ask for what Yeah, and ask for what you ask for what you need. you need. you need. You know, I think that we assume You know, I think that we assume You know, I think that we assume sometimes we make assumptions. Well, sometimes we make assumptions. Well, sometimes we make assumptions. Well, they surely they know the impact that they surely they know the impact that they surely they know the impact that they're having on me. But, if you can they're having on me. But, if you can they're having on me. But, if you can say, "Hey, you know, um what I've really say, "Hey, you know, um what I've really say, "Hey, you know, um what I've really I've I've noticed that uh you know, I've I've noticed that uh you know, I've I've noticed that uh you know, this is happening." Whatever the thing this is happening." Whatever the thing this is happening." Whatever the thing that you're interpreting as lazy. Again, that you're interpreting as lazy. Again, that you're interpreting as lazy. Again, don't use the word lazy, but whatever don't use the word lazy, but whatever don't use the word lazy, but whatever you're interpreting, I I've noticed that you're interpreting, I I've noticed that you're interpreting, I I've noticed that I'm consistently getting this report I'm consistently getting this report I'm consistently getting this report late. late. late. And I'm going to tell you the impact And I'm going to tell you the impact And I'm going to tell you the impact that that's having on the rest of the that that's having on the rest of the that that's having on the rest of the team's ability to do their work. team's ability to do their work. team's ability to do their work. You know, I'm curious how it's going on You know, I'm curious how it's going on You know, I'm curious how it's going on from your perspective. And you might from your perspective. And you might from your perspective. And you might find out there it as it turns out find out there it as it turns out find out there it as it turns out they're not lazy, they are they're not lazy, they are they're not lazy, they are slammed with something else. or maybe slammed with something else. or maybe slammed with something else. or maybe they are lazy, but they you know they they are lazy, but they you know they they are lazy, but they you know they you know you say you say you know you say you say you know you say you say okay, you hear what it's well, I don't okay, you hear what it's well, I don't okay, you hear what it's well, I don't know. I'm you know, I'm just okay, well, know. I'm you know, I'm just okay, well, know. I'm you know, I'm just okay, well, here's what I need. I really need the here's what I need. I really need the here's what I need. I really need the report by 3:00. report by 3:00. report by 3:00. Can you do that can you make that Can you do that can you make that Can you do that can you make that happen? Right? And all they tell you happen? Right? And all they tell you happen? Right? And all they tell you they can't possibly do it. Well, then they can't possibly do it. Well, then they can't possibly do it. Well, then now you're in a in a escalate the now you're in a in a escalate the now you're in a in a escalate the conversation to somebody different, but conversation to somebody different, but conversation to somebody different, but at least you're calling it out because at least you're calling it out because at least you're calling it out because sometimes what happens is we're like, sometimes what happens is we're like, sometimes what happens is we're like, well, they're lazy. I'm just going to well, they're lazy. I'm just going to well, they're lazy. I'm just going to work around them or work harder.

work around them or work harder. work around them or work harder. And you can only do that for so long And you can only do that for so long And you can only do that for so long before you're you blow your your gasket, before you're you blow your your gasket, before you're you blow your your gasket, right? You know, and there's there are right? You know, and there's there are right? You know, and there's there are times where the system is the issue. times where the system is the issue. times where the system is the issue. And so it is wholly appropriate at times And so it is wholly appropriate at times And so it is wholly appropriate at times to share your perspective. You have the to share your perspective. You have the to share your perspective. You have the conversation with your colleague or your conversation with your colleague or your conversation with your colleague or your teammate and they're like, yeah, I don't teammate and they're like, yeah, I don't teammate and they're like, yeah, I don't see it that way. You're like, huh, well, see it that way. You're like, huh, well, see it that way. You're like, huh, well, I I see it this way and that's my I I see it this way and that's my I I see it this way and that's my interpretation of what's going on. interpretation of what's going on. interpretation of what's going on. You know what would you come with me to You know what would you come with me to You know what would you come with me to talk to our supervisor to talk with our talk to our supervisor to talk with our talk to our supervisor to talk with our manager cuz I'd really like to sort this manager cuz I'd really like to sort this manager cuz I'd really like to sort this out so that you know, the whole team is out so that you know, the whole team is out so that you know, the whole team is feeling good about this and we're all feeling good about this and we're all feeling good about this and we're all working equally and doing whatever our working equally and doing whatever our working equally and doing whatever our things are we're supposed to be doing. things are we're supposed to be doing. things are we're supposed to be doing. But I just want to make sure it's good. But I just want to make sure it's good. But I just want to make sure it's good. And so I'm not going around them. I And so I'm not going around them. I And so I'm not going around them. I invite them to go have that clarifica invite them to go have that clarifica invite them to go have that clarifica clarifying conversation with me. And clarifying conversation with me. And clarifying conversation with me. And that's another powerful phrase is, hey, that's another powerful phrase is, hey, that's another powerful phrase is, hey, can we go talk about this together with can we go talk about this together with can we go talk about this together with our manager? our manager? our manager? So, I'm just going to try this out on So, I'm just going to try this out on So, I'm just going to try this out on you, but we've been talking for the last you, but we've been talking for the last you, but we've been talking for the last 15-20 minutes about very specific 15-20 minutes about very specific 15-20 minutes about very specific scenarios, kind of role-playing them. scenarios, kind of role-playing them. scenarios, kind of role-playing them. It would seem to me that if you embrace It would seem to me that if you embrace It would seem to me that if you embrace the behaviors you're advocating as a the behaviors you're advocating as a the behaviors you're advocating as a non-senior leader, non-senior leader, non-senior leader, it's a pretty sure ticket to a it's a pretty sure ticket to a it's a pretty sure ticket to a promotion.

promotion. promotion. Is that is that the case? Like those Is that is that the case? Like those Is that is that the case? Like those what you're describing are the kind of what you're describing are the kind of what you're describing are the kind of people that I would want to be at the people that I would want to be at the people that I would want to be at the top of an organization. top of an organization. top of an organization. we we say, be the leader you want your we we say, be the leader you want your we we say, be the leader you want your boss to be. boss to be. boss to be. And you know, and so if And you know, and so if And you know, and so if if you can step in and be the one who's if you can step in and be the one who's if you can step in and be the one who's creating connection, better clarity. You creating connection, better clarity. You creating connection, better clarity. You You you can create clarity without being You you can create clarity without being You you can create clarity without being the boss. You know, hey, what's most the boss. You know, hey, what's most the boss. You know, hey, what's most important here? What does successful important here? What does successful important here? What does successful outcome do for you? All those questions. outcome do for you? All those questions. outcome do for you? All those questions. Showing up really curious and leading Showing up really curious and leading Showing up really curious and leading towards commitment. Yeah, those are the towards commitment. Yeah, those are the towards commitment. Yeah, those are the kinds of people I'd like to promote to, kinds of people I'd like to promote to, kinds of people I'd like to promote to, Carey. Carey. Carey. Absolutely. Well, before we go, it's an Absolutely. Well, before we go, it's an Absolutely. Well, before we go, it's an incredibly practical book. We'll get to incredibly practical book. We'll get to incredibly practical book. We'll get to it in just a second, but um one of the it in just a second, but um one of the it in just a second, but um one of the other challenges is we've talked a lot other challenges is we've talked a lot other challenges is we've talked a lot about individuals, one-on-one, my boss, about individuals, one-on-one, my boss, about individuals, one-on-one, my boss, my co-worker, you know, et cetera. But my co-worker, you know, et cetera. But my co-worker, you know, et cetera. But there's a lot of leaders, particularly there's a lot of leaders, particularly there's a lot of leaders, particularly in nonprofits or donor-led or churches, in nonprofits or donor-led or churches, in nonprofits or donor-led or churches, that have to deal with chronic that have to deal with chronic that have to deal with chronic complainers or bullies. Uh you know, you complainers or bullies. Uh you know, you complainers or bullies. Uh you know, you got a thousand people, a hundred people, got a thousand people, a hundred people, got a thousand people, a hundred people, and there's this faction, there's this and there's this faction, there's this and there's this faction, there's this group. Any thoughts on group dynamics group. Any thoughts on group dynamics group. Any thoughts on group dynamics when you're dealing with that constant when you're dealing with that constant when you're dealing with that constant thorn in your side?

thorn in your side? thorn in your side? The uh so this this The uh so this this The uh so this this constant well, the bully and chronic constant well, the bully and chronic constant well, the bully and chronic complainers, I'm going to separate out a complainers, I'm going to separate out a complainers, I'm going to separate out a little bit because if it's true little bit because if it's true little bit because if it's true bullying, there's a place to take a bullying, there's a place to take a bullying, there's a place to take a stand and say that behavior is not stand and say that behavior is not stand and say that behavior is not appropriate here. Not in our context, appropriate here. Not in our context, appropriate here. Not in our context, that doesn't align with our values. And that doesn't align with our values. And that doesn't align with our values. And I have as a leader in a I have as a leader in a I have as a leader in a service-based, nonprofit, faith-based service-based, nonprofit, faith-based service-based, nonprofit, faith-based organization, I have had to do that with organization, I have had to do that with organization, I have had to do that with somebody who was ultimately contributing somebody who was ultimately contributing somebody who was ultimately contributing numbers that ended with many, many numbers that ended with many, many numbers that ended with many, many zeros. zeros. zeros. And that's hard to do, but it's And that's hard to do, but it's And that's hard to do, but it's necessary. So if you're talking about necessary. So if you're talking about necessary. So if you're talking about bullying behavior, it's a stand up to bullying behavior, it's a stand up to bullying behavior, it's a stand up to it. There's I this is what I was saying. it. There's I this is what I was saying. it. There's I this is what I was saying. I will I will add that uh I confronted a I will I will add that uh I confronted a I will I will add that uh I confronted a minister of a congregation that I was minister of a congregation that I was minister of a congregation that I was part of because there was so much part of because there was so much part of because there was so much bullying going on, and she said she bullying going on, and she said she bullying going on, and she said she wouldn't address it, wouldn't address it, wouldn't address it, and I left. and I left. and I left. Right? So I really think and and to your Right? So I really think and and to your Right? So I really think and and to your point, I was a good volunteer. I bet you point, I was a good volunteer. I bet you point, I was a good volunteer. I bet you were. I bet you were, Carey. I was were. I bet you were, Carey. I was were. I bet you were, Carey. I was contributing some significant resources, contributing some significant resources, contributing some significant resources, right? So you know, the people who have right? So you know, the people who have right? So you know, the people who have strong values are not going to stand for strong values are not going to stand for strong values are not going to stand for that if you allow that in your that if you allow that in your that if you allow that in your congregation. Yeah. So. And so that's congregation. Yeah. So. And so that's congregation. Yeah. So. And so that's the bullying. Then on the the chronic the bullying. Then on the the chronic the bullying. Then on the the chronic complaining side, there are two kinds of complaining side, there are two kinds of complaining side, there are two kinds of chronic complainers, and it's important chronic complainers, and it's important chronic complainers, and it's important to know which you're dealing with.

to know which you're dealing with. to know which you're dealing with. The first type of chronic complainer The first type of chronic complainer The first type of chronic complainer complains because complaining makes them complains because complaining makes them complains because complaining makes them feel good. I don't understand it, but it feel good. I don't understand it, but it feel good. I don't understand it, but it does. So, like I say, like this is the does. So, like I say, like this is the does. So, like I say, like this is the person who's getting a a coconut hand person who's getting a a coconut hand person who's getting a a coconut hand massage with coconut oil at a resort, massage with coconut oil at a resort, massage with coconut oil at a resort, and they will complain because the and they will complain because the and they will complain because the lotion smells like coconut. Like they're lotion smells like coconut. Like they're lotion smells like coconut. Like they're just going to complain about whatever. just going to complain about whatever. just going to complain about whatever. And and in order to figure out if that's And and in order to figure out if that's And and in order to figure out if that's who you're dealing with, to say, "Hey, who you're dealing with, to say, "Hey, who you're dealing with, to say, "Hey, I've heard you mention this a couple of I've heard you mention this a couple of I've heard you mention this a couple of times." times." times." And it sounds like you're unhappy about And it sounds like you're unhappy about And it sounds like you're unhappy about what's going on. Okay, that does sound what's going on. Okay, that does sound what's going on. Okay, that does sound frust- I I reflect that does sound frust- I I reflect that does sound frust- I I reflect that does sound frustrating. frustrating. frustrating. Do you want to make it better? Do you want to make it better? Do you want to make it better? Mhm. What does better look like, and Mhm. What does better look like, and Mhm. What does better look like, and what are you willing to invest to get what are you willing to invest to get what are you willing to invest to get there? there? there? And if they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm I'm And if they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm I'm And if they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm I'm not." Okay, done. I extract myself from not." Okay, done. I extract myself from not." Okay, done. I extract myself from that conversation, and I'm not going to that conversation, and I'm not going to that conversation, and I'm not going to give that a lot of airtime. give that a lot of airtime. give that a lot of airtime. On the other hand, if I talk to someone On the other hand, if I talk to someone On the other hand, if I talk to someone who is chronically complaining because who is chronically complaining because who is chronically complaining because they genuinely care, they genuinely care, they genuinely care, but maybe they don't know how to express but maybe they don't know how to express but maybe they don't know how to express it, maybe they don't know how to move to it, maybe they don't know how to move to it, maybe they don't know how to move to solution, then from a leadership or an solution, then from a leadership or an solution, then from a leadership or an influence perspective, I can help that influence perspective, I can help that influence perspective, I can help that person by saying, "Hey, it sounds like person by saying, "Hey, it sounds like person by saying, "Hey, it sounds like you're concerned about X. Do I have that you're concerned about X. Do I have that you're concerned about X. Do I have that right? Yeah. And what else? Tell me right? Yeah. And what else? Tell me right? Yeah. And what else? Tell me more. Okay.

more. Okay. more. Okay. And what do you see as the consequences And what do you see as the consequences And what do you see as the consequences if you can get them to explain that? if you can get them to explain that? if you can get them to explain that? Well, what would it feel like if we Well, what would it feel like if we Well, what would it feel like if we could solve for that?" could solve for that?" could solve for that?" Oh, so then they're starting to envision Oh, so then they're starting to envision Oh, so then they're starting to envision all the possibilities. all the possibilities. all the possibilities. And then, "How do you think we can And then, "How do you think we can And then, "How do you think we can address this?" address this?" address this?" And so then I'm starting to draw them And so then I'm starting to draw them And so then I'm starting to draw them into some solutions. And if they're into some solutions. And if they're into some solutions. And if they're still struggling, I'm going to say, still struggling, I'm going to say, still struggling, I'm going to say, "Okay, what if you could snap your "Okay, what if you could snap your "Okay, what if you could snap your fingers, wave a wand? Uh what would you fingers, wave a wand? Uh what would you fingers, wave a wand? Uh what would you like to see happen?" like to see happen?" like to see happen?" So, I'm moving them from complaining to So, I'm moving them from complaining to So, I'm moving them from complaining to constructive thought about constructive thought about constructive thought about solution-focused. solution-focused. solution-focused. And then I can summarize, "Well, it And then I can summarize, "Well, it And then I can summarize, "Well, it sounds like you want to do this. Is that sounds like you want to do this. Is that sounds like you want to do this. Is that right? And this is how we can approach right? And this is how we can approach right? And this is how we can approach that?" Yeah, okay. And then we get some that?" Yeah, okay. And then we get some that?" Yeah, okay. And then we get some clarity in around that, maybe even get clarity in around that, maybe even get clarity in around that, maybe even get some commitment to next steps, or some commitment to next steps, or some commitment to next steps, or whatever that could look like for them, whatever that could look like for them, whatever that could look like for them, or put it together, write it up, or put it together, write it up, or put it together, write it up, whatever whatever whatever is appropriate. And then, again, bring is appropriate. And then, again, bring is appropriate. And then, again, bring the conversation to a close if they are the conversation to a close if they are the conversation to a close if they are used to chronic complaining. used to chronic complaining. used to chronic complaining. I'm glad we had this conversation. I'm glad we had this conversation. I'm glad we had this conversation. And so putting the conversation in the And so putting the conversation in the And so putting the conversation in the past tense, I'm glad we had this past tense, I'm glad we had this past tense, I'm glad we had this conversation helps to tie a bow cuz now conversation helps to tie a bow cuz now conversation helps to tie a bow cuz now I need to move on to some other things. I need to move on to some other things. I need to move on to some other things. Well, one more. I think you touched on Well, one more. I think you touched on Well, one more. I think you touched on it in your book. I can't remember it in your book. I can't remember it in your book. I can't remember exactly. Gossip, exactly. Gossip, exactly. Gossip, um, problem at work.

um, problem at work. um, problem at work. Shouldn't be a problem in the church. It Shouldn't be a problem in the church. It Shouldn't be a problem in the church. It is. is. is. Any tips on how to have a gossip-free Any tips on how to have a gossip-free Any tips on how to have a gossip-free culture? culture? culture? Yeah, a gossip-free culture. So I think Yeah, a gossip-free culture. So I think Yeah, a gossip-free culture. So I think one is to one is to one is to make it clear that gossip make it clear that gossip make it clear that gossip you know, as you are communicating your you know, as you are communicating your you know, as you are communicating your covenants and the way you're talking covenants and the way you're talking covenants and the way you're talking that it is not that's not how people that it is not that's not how people that it is not that's not how people like us do things around here. So to like us do things around here. So to like us do things around here. So to address it um, and to and to create address it um, and to and to create address it um, and to and to create clarity as a culture. But what do you do clarity as a culture. But what do you do clarity as a culture. But what do you do if the gossip is about you? And you're if the gossip is about you? And you're if the gossip is about you? And you're you're in church, right? And some you you're in church, right? And some you you're in church, right? And some you you know, one of the ways that I have you know, one of the ways that I have you know, one of the ways that I have dealt with this in the past and I was on dealt with this in the past and I was on dealt with this in the past and I was on a very worked in a very male-dominated a very worked in a very male-dominated a very worked in a very male-dominated organization. I was one of a very few organization. I was one of a very few organization. I was one of a very few few women at the level that I was at. few women at the level that I was at. few women at the level that I was at. And from time to time there was all And from time to time there was all And from time to time there was all kinds of weird gossip for some reason I kinds of weird gossip for some reason I kinds of weird gossip for some reason I think had something to do with that think had something to do with that think had something to do with that whether whether whether men didn't think I should be in that men didn't think I should be in that men didn't think I should be in that position. I don't know what but there position. I don't know what but there position. I don't know what but there was actually a a a circumstance where was actually a a a circumstance where was actually a a a circumstance where there there was a rumor going around there there was a rumor going around there there was a rumor going around that I was in love with one of my one of that I was in love with one of my one of that I was in love with one of my one of my only the only other female who was a my only the only other female who was a my only the only other female who was a direct report on my team.

direct report on my team. direct report on my team. And that we were going to Jamaica And that we were going to Jamaica And that we were going to Jamaica together on some secret squirrel together on some secret squirrel together on some secret squirrel holiday. holiday. holiday. Now, I had toddlers like that Now, I had toddlers like that Now, I had toddlers like that if I were going to go to Jamaica, it if I were going to go to Jamaica, it if I were going to go to Jamaica, it would not have been on some like it would not have been on some like it would not have been on some like it would have been with like a diaper bag, would have been with like a diaper bag, would have been with like a diaper bag, right? And um, and I just I right? And um, and I just I right? And um, and I just I I used humor in that circumstance and I I used humor in that circumstance and I I used humor in that circumstance and I said, you know, the the scene that said, you know, the the scene that said, you know, the the scene that you're describing here is a lot more you're describing here is a lot more you're describing here is a lot more interesting than my actual life, you interesting than my actual life, you interesting than my actual life, you know? And know? And know? And you know, or that sounds like a really you know, or that sounds like a really you know, or that sounds like a really interesting movie that I would love to interesting movie that I would love to interesting movie that I would love to see, but it has nothing to do with my see, but it has nothing to do with my see, but it has nothing to do with my what's actually happening here. what's actually happening here. what's actually happening here. And and so that you know, if if humor if And and so that you know, if if humor if And and so that you know, if if humor if you can in that circumstance the humor you can in that circumstance the humor you can in that circumstance the humor stopped it. But in an another stopped it. But in an another stopped it. But in an another circumstance, you know, you could you circumstance, you know, you could you circumstance, you know, you could you could go to the person who you think is could go to the person who you think is could go to the person who you think is doing the gossip and say, you know, I doing the gossip and say, you know, I doing the gossip and say, you know, I think there is a rumor going around think there is a rumor going around think there is a rumor going around about me and I really hate that because about me and I really hate that because about me and I really hate that because you you know, it's just not true and I you you know, it's just not true and I you you know, it's just not true and I could use your help in helping me squash could use your help in helping me squash could use your help in helping me squash this rumor. So you're not you're not this rumor. So you're not you're not this rumor. So you're not you're not saying that they're the one that's doing saying that they're the one that's doing saying that they're the one that's doing it, but you're are in such a way that it, but you're are in such a way that it, but you're are in such a way that you're saying, hey, can you help me to you're saying, hey, can you help me to you're saying, hey, can you help me to get rid of this and you know, people get rid of this and you know, people get rid of this and you know, people have questions here are the facts is is have questions here are the facts is is have questions here are the facts is is another. And then the other way is if another. And then the other way is if another. And then the other way is if you are the bystander, we do talk about you are the bystander, we do talk about you are the bystander, we do talk about this in the book, right? Sometimes the this in the book, right? Sometimes the this in the book, right? Sometimes the best person to help is not the person best person to help is not the person best person to help is not the person who is being gossiped about. Hey, who is being gossiped about. Hey, who is being gossiped about. Hey, I hear you saying this about this I hear you saying this about this I hear you saying this about this person.

person. person. Would you want people talking about you Would you want people talking about you Would you want people talking about you that way? Because I would never talk that way? Because I would never talk that way? Because I would never talk about you that way and I don't think about you that way and I don't think about you that way and I don't think it's fair for us to be having this it's fair for us to be having this it's fair for us to be having this conversation without this person in the conversation without this person in the conversation without this person in the room. So either I think we should invite room. So either I think we should invite room. So either I think we should invite them to join this conversation or I them to join this conversation or I them to join this conversation or I think we should stop. think we should stop. think we should stop. And if more people did that, it would And if more people did that, it would And if more people did that, it would lower the lower the lower the that helps to build that into the that helps to build that into the that helps to build that into the culture. culture. culture. Wow, super super helpful. Brian Miles Wow, super super helpful. Brian Miles Wow, super super helpful. Brian Miles just interestingly enough, good friend, just interestingly enough, good friend, just interestingly enough, good friend, mentor, mentor, mentor, founder of Ballet along with his wife founder of Ballet along with his wife founder of Ballet along with his wife Shannon. They had a policy, I don't know Shannon. They had a policy, I don't know Shannon. They had a policy, I don't know whether it's still in place, but gossip whether it's still in place, but gossip whether it's still in place, but gossip is a fireable offense. Uh-huh. On on the is a fireable offense. Uh-huh. On on the is a fireable offense. Uh-huh. On on the first occasion. And gossip is anytime first occasion. And gossip is anytime first occasion. And gossip is anytime you bring in a co-worker you bring in a co-worker you bring in a co-worker and you know, are not solving a problem and you know, are not solving a problem and you know, are not solving a problem with them, you know, just talking about with them, you know, just talking about with them, you know, just talking about them when they're not in the room, them when they're not in the room, them when they're not in the room, fireable offense. Fascinating. fireable offense. Fascinating. fireable offense. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. So, the book is called Powerful Phrases So, the book is called Powerful Phrases So, the book is called Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. Uh for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. Uh for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. Uh Karen, David, uh Karen, David, uh Karen, David, uh book's available everywhere. Where can book's available everywhere. Where can book's available everywhere. Where can people connect with you and your work people connect with you and your work people connect with you and your work online? Yeah, so our company's called online? Yeah, so our company's called online? Yeah, so our company's called Let's Grow Leaders. And if you go to our Let's Grow Leaders. And if you go to our Let's Grow Leaders. And if you go to our site uh and go and click on the book site uh and go and click on the book site uh and go and click on the book tab, there is a resource center that has tab, there is a resource center that has tab, there is a resource center that has all kinds of really practical tools and all kinds of really practical tools and all kinds of really practical tools and techniques. If you have a group that techniques. If you have a group that techniques. If you have a group that wants to read Powerful Phrases together wants to read Powerful Phrases together wants to read Powerful Phrases together to talk about it, we have uh role plays to talk about it, we have uh role plays to talk about it, we have uh role plays and discussion questions and templates and discussion questions and templates and discussion questions and templates and all kinds of ways that you can use

and all kinds of ways that you can use and all kinds of ways that you can use this to not just be the only one reading this to not just be the only one reading this to not just be the only one reading this, but read it together and uh you this, but read it together and uh you this, but read it together and uh you know, make sure that you can implement know, make sure that you can implement know, make sure that you can implement and really take some action. And if you and really take some action. And if you and really take some action. And if you like uh listening as you're listening to like uh listening as you're listening to like uh listening as you're listening to this podcast, we do narrate the audio this podcast, we do narrate the audio this podcast, we do narrate the audio version of the book. So, if you're a version of the book. So, if you're a version of the book. So, if you're a book listener, you can get Karen and I book listener, you can get Karen and I book listener, you can get Karen and I there as well as e-formats, paperback, there as well as e-formats, paperback, there as well as e-formats, paperback, however works for you. however works for you. however works for you. That's great. Well, I'll tell you this That's great. Well, I'll tell you this That's great. Well, I'll tell you this has been super practical. You helped a has been super practical. You helped a has been super practical. You helped a lot of leaders today. lot of leaders today. lot of leaders today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate Thank you so much. I really appreciate Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Karen and David. We really it, Karen and David. We really it, Karen and David. We really appreciate it, too, Carey. Thanks so appreciate it, too, Carey. Thanks so appreciate it, too, Carey. Thanks so much for such a good conversation.