People Meet the Vision You Set—Not the One You Hide

People will elevate to the vision that People will elevate to the vision that you cast. So don't compromise your you cast. So don't compromise your you cast. So don't compromise your vision because you are overwhelmed by vision because you are overwhelmed by vision because you are overwhelmed by the size of it. People will elevate to the size of it. People will elevate to the size of it. People will elevate to your vision. Welcome to the Carrie your vision. Welcome to the Carrie your vision. Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership Podcast. So glad you Newhof Leadership Podcast. So glad you Newhof Leadership Podcast. So glad you joined us today, man. If you are a joined us today, man. If you are a joined us today, man. If you are a church leader and you are facing a church leader and you are facing a church leader and you are facing a building project or you are trying to building project or you are trying to building project or you are trying to figure out how to unite your figure out how to unite your figure out how to unite your congregation or you're facing some congregation or you're facing some congregation or you're facing some impossible task, well, you've come to impossible task, well, you've come to impossible task, well, you've come to the right place. I've got Aaron Graham the right place. I've got Aaron Graham the right place. I've got Aaron Graham on the podcast today. He has ministered on the podcast today. He has ministered on the podcast today. He has ministered in DC for 16 years and I'm [music] so in DC for 16 years and I'm [music] so in DC for 16 years and I'm [music] so glad to have him. We talk about how do glad to have him. We talk about how do glad to have him. We talk about how do you take 900 people and do a $37 million you take 900 people and do a $37 million you take 900 people and do a $37 million building campaign. I mean, those of you building campaign. I mean, those of you building campaign. I mean, those of you who are facing building issues right who are facing building issues right who are facing building issues right now, you're struggling so much. Why? now, you're struggling so much. Why? now, you're struggling so much. Why? Because everything you touch is like $5 Because everything you touch is like $5 Because everything you touch is like $5 million, $10 million, $20 million. million, $10 million, $20 million. million, $10 million, $20 million. [music] And you might be ready to give [music] And you might be ready to give [music] And you might be ready to give up. Man, you're going to want to hear up. Man, you're going to want to hear up. Man, you're going to want to hear this conversation. We also talk about this conversation. We also talk about this conversation. We also talk about our divided culture. How do you unite our divided culture. How do you unite our divided culture. How do you unite people? What do you do when you have people? What do you do when you have people? What do you do when you have people who really disagree? Uh cultural people who really disagree? Uh cultural people who really disagree? Uh cultural lies that need to be exposed, why the lies that need to be exposed, why the lies that need to be exposed, why the American church is drifting. And then American church is drifting. And then American church is drifting. And then also, he has a fascinating life story.

also, he has a fascinating life story. also, he has a fascinating life story. Uh imagine being held hostage with your Uh imagine being held hostage with your Uh imagine being held hostage with your whole family at the age of 10. And what whole family at the age of 10. And what whole family at the age of 10. And what does that look like? I mean, my does that look like? I mean, my does that look like? I mean, my goodness, this is uh this is not a goodness, this is uh this is not a goodness, this is uh this is not a boring conversation in the least. It's boring conversation in the least. It's boring conversation in the least. It's pretty riveting. So, I got Aaron Graham pretty riveting. So, I got Aaron Graham pretty riveting. So, I got Aaron Graham on the podcast today. He is the founder on the podcast today. He is the founder on the podcast today. He is the founder and the lead pastor of the district and the lead pastor of the district and the lead pastor of the district church, a thriving, very multicultural church, a thriving, very multicultural church, a thriving, very multicultural church in Washington DC, two miles north church in Washington DC, two miles north church in Washington DC, two miles north of the White House. His new book is of the White House. His new book is of the White House. His new book is called Unshakable Faith. It's how to called Unshakable Faith. It's how to called Unshakable Faith. It's how to stand firm in a culture of lies. His stand firm in a culture of lies. His stand firm in a culture of lies. His work has been featured on ABC World work has been featured on ABC World work has been featured on ABC World News, Time, and the Washington Post for News, Time, and the Washington Post for News, Time, and the Washington Post for his insights and uh on millennials and his insights and uh on millennials and his insights and uh on millennials and really how to do ministry in an really how to do ministry in an really how to do ministry in an increasingly secular age. So, I think increasingly secular age. So, I think increasingly secular age. So, I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. you're going to enjoy this conversation. you're going to enjoy this conversation. Hey, if you are new, will you do me a Hey, if you are new, will you do me a Hey, if you are new, will you do me a favor? Hit the follow or subscribe favor? Hit the follow or subscribe favor? Hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you're watching, button wherever you're watching, button wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. You can find wherever you're listening. You can find wherever you're listening. You can find show notes because we cover a lot inside show notes because we cover a lot inside show notes because we cover a lot inside the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to the to the to the arttoofleershipacademy.com/showotes and you'll find them there and sign up and you'll find them there and sign up for free or kyneu-hoff.com/showotes for free or kyneu-hoff.com/showotes for free or kyneu-hoff.com/showotes and we'll take care of that. And now my and we'll take care of that. And now my and we'll take care of that. And now my conversation with Aaron Graham. Well, conversation with Aaron Graham. Well, conversation with Aaron Graham. Well, Aaron, I'm so glad to have you on the Aaron, I'm so glad to have you on the Aaron, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast finally. Welcome.

podcast finally. Welcome. podcast finally. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me, Carrie. So, such >> Thanks for having me, Carrie. So, such >> Thanks for having me, Carrie. So, such an honor to be to be here. My my an honor to be to be here. My my an honor to be to be here. My my favorite podcast, number one podcast I favorite podcast, number one podcast I favorite podcast, number one podcast I listen to. So, thanks for having listen to. So, thanks for having listen to. So, thanks for having >> Gosh, that's so humbling. Thank you. >> Gosh, that's so humbling. Thank you. >> Gosh, that's so humbling. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it's about time time we Thank you. Well, it's about time time we Thank you. Well, it's about time time we got you behind a microphone and started got you behind a microphone and started got you behind a microphone and started a conversation. You know, you're a conversation. You know, you're a conversation. You know, you're building a church in DC, which I think a building a church in DC, which I think a building a church in DC, which I think a is rare. U Mark Batterson's been a is rare. U Mark Batterson's been a is rare. U Mark Batterson's been a frequent flyer on this podcast. I'm frequent flyer on this podcast. I'm frequent flyer on this podcast. I'm always amazed as much by what he has to always amazed as much by what he has to always amazed as much by what he has to say, but also what he's doing in the say, but also what he's doing in the say, but also what he's doing in the city. And you've got a very similar city. And you've got a very similar city. And you've got a very similar thing. Um talk for a moment if you can thing. Um talk for a moment if you can thing. Um talk for a moment if you can about this like building thing you're in about this like building thing you're in about this like building thing you're in the midst of. That sounds unreal. the midst of. That sounds unreal. the midst of. That sounds unreal. >> Yeah. So, pastor of the district church >> Yeah. So, pastor of the district church >> Yeah. So, pastor of the district church right in the heart of DC. We launched right in the heart of DC. We launched right in the heart of DC. We launched almost 16 years ago. We're located two almost 16 years ago. We're located two almost 16 years ago. We're located two miles north of the White House in the miles north of the White House in the miles north of the White House in the most diverse neighborhood of DC called most diverse neighborhood of DC called most diverse neighborhood of DC called Columbia Heights. And uh we've been Columbia Heights. And uh we've been Columbia Heights. And uh we've been portable for 16 years, meeting in a high portable for 16 years, meeting in a high portable for 16 years, meeting in a high school. We have an office space that we school. We have an office space that we school. We have an office space that we renovated, but just praying, trying to renovated, but just praying, trying to renovated, but just praying, trying to navigate the space issue, very expensive navigate the space issue, very expensive navigate the space issue, very expensive in DC. And uh just through providential in DC. And uh just through providential in DC. And uh just through providential circumstances, there's a church a block circumstances, there's a church a block circumstances, there's a church a block away from us, the historic National away from us, the historic National away from us, the historic National Baptist Memorial Church, which was built Baptist Memorial Church, which was built Baptist Memorial Church, which was built 100 years ago as a monument to religious 100 years ago as a monument to religious 100 years ago as a monument to religious liberty that um had been in decline over liberty that um had been in decline over liberty that um had been in decline over the last several decades. Um got down to the last several decades. Um got down to the last several decades. Um got down to about 20 or 30 people and they made the about 20 or 30 people and they made the about 20 or 30 people and they made the decision to partner uh with us and to decision to partner uh with us and to decision to partner uh with us and to entrust us with the building that's in entrust us with the building that's in entrust us with the building that's in not great shape. And so we're about to not great shape. And so we're about to not great shape. And so we're about to put a lot of money into it and um but put a lot of money into it and um but put a lot of money into it and um but it's about a thousand seat sanctuary,

it's about a thousand seat sanctuary, it's about a thousand seat sanctuary, 50,000 square foot space. So we'll be 50,000 square foot space. So we'll be 50,000 square foot space. So we'll be able to have an outreach center because able to have an outreach center because able to have an outreach center because there's a lot of needs in our there's a lot of needs in our there's a lot of needs in our neighborhood to serve um an event space, neighborhood to serve um an event space, neighborhood to serve um an event space, a daycare, and of course all of our just a daycare, and of course all of our just a daycare, and of course all of our just church programming. So it's it's a total church programming. So it's it's a total church programming. So it's it's a total God story to be able to do something uh God story to be able to do something uh God story to be able to do something uh like that here in DC. like that here in DC. like that here in DC. >> Yeah. And you know, if and and again, >> Yeah. And you know, if and and again, >> Yeah. And you know, if and and again, you don't have to talk about it if you you don't have to talk about it if you you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, but what interested me is don't want to, but what interested me is don't want to, but what interested me is the math. Um, I mean a large church, the math. Um, I mean a large church, the math. Um, I mean a large church, eight or nine hundred people, but not a eight or nine hundred people, but not a eight or nine hundred people, but not a mega mega mega church kind of thing to mega mega mega church kind of thing to mega mega mega church kind of thing to get this building. It sounds like a get this building. It sounds like a get this building. It sounds like a gift. And I talk to church planters all gift. And I talk to church planters all gift. And I talk to church planters all the time who are exactly your situation. the time who are exactly your situation. the time who are exactly your situation. Like, you know, we got a thing going. Like, you know, we got a thing going. Like, you know, we got a thing going. It's been 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, It's been 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, It's been 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, portable, but the price of real estate portable, but the price of real estate portable, but the price of real estate has gone bananas. has gone bananas. has gone bananas. Like, you you probably couldn't afford Like, you you probably couldn't afford Like, you you probably couldn't afford to buy it. So, you get this gift, but to buy it. So, you get this gift, but to buy it. So, you get this gift, but the gift comes with a price tag. Is that the gift comes with a price tag. Is that the gift comes with a price tag. Is that correct? Absolutely. correct? Absolutely. correct? Absolutely. >> Yeah. Tell us about that. >> Yeah. Tell us about that. >> Yeah. Tell us about that. >> It's exactly the same themes you've >> It's exactly the same themes you've >> It's exactly the same themes you've talked about on this podcast before talked about on this podcast before talked about on this podcast before where there's a lot of young churches where there's a lot of young churches where there's a lot of young churches that are growing and then there's older that are growing and then there's older that are growing and then there's older churches that are declining that have churches that are declining that have churches that are declining that have facilities and then there's younger facilities and then there's younger facilities and then there's younger churches that might not that don't have churches that might not that don't have churches that might not that don't have facilities but they have growing budget.

facilities but they have growing budget. facilities but they have growing budget. They have young people who are coming They have young people who are coming They have young people who are coming and that partnership together is can be and that partnership together is can be and that partnership together is can be really incredible. But also the really incredible. But also the really incredible. But also the principles, you know, you've talked principles, you know, you've talked principles, you know, you've talked about before around activating a space about before around activating a space about before around activating a space to be able to use it more than just to be able to use it more than just to be able to use it more than just Sundays. Sundays. Sundays. >> So, being able to use it as a daycare, >> So, being able to use it as a daycare, >> So, being able to use it as a daycare, so that creates revenue. Being able to so that creates revenue. Being able to so that creates revenue. Being able to use it for an event space. We're in DC. use it for an event space. We're in DC. use it for an event space. We're in DC. There's a demand for conference space There's a demand for conference space There's a demand for conference space during the week when our people are at during the week when our people are at during the week when our people are at work, we can still use the space. work, we can still use the space. work, we can still use the space. There's a need for outreach. Um, and so There's a need for outreach. Um, and so There's a need for outreach. Um, and so people want to give to help serve the people want to give to help serve the people want to give to help serve the needs of the poor. And so, being able to needs of the poor. And so, being able to needs of the poor. And so, being able to have an outreach center. And so, just have an outreach center. And so, just have an outreach center. And so, just activating a space throughout the week. activating a space throughout the week. activating a space throughout the week. And so we've built the what we call the And so we've built the what we call the And so we've built the what we call the capital SPA stack or the stewardship capital SPA stack or the stewardship capital SPA stack or the stewardship stack around that and through a couple stack around that and through a couple stack around that and through a couple capital campaigns of raising uh capital campaigns of raising uh capital campaigns of raising uh resources internally in the church and resources internally in the church and resources internally in the church and then inviting people even beyond our then inviting people even beyond our then inviting people even beyond our church that want to see the gospel church that want to see the gospel church that want to see the gospel flourish right in the heart of DC. We're flourish right in the heart of DC. We're flourish right in the heart of DC. We're located on this most spiritually located on this most spiritually located on this most spiritually significant street of the city. It goes significant street of the city. It goes significant street of the city. It goes directly north of the White House and it directly north of the White House and it directly north of the White House and it has pretty much every major world has pretty much every major world has pretty much every major world religion has a headquartered on religion has a headquartered on religion has a headquartered on headquarters on this street. So you got headquarters on this street. So you got headquarters on this street. So you got Church of Scientology, the Unification Church of Scientology, the Unification Church of Scientology, the Unification Church, two huge Freemason buildings, Church, two huge Freemason buildings, Church, two huge Freemason buildings, every denomination. And so there's every denomination. And so there's every denomination. And so there's there's real spiritual warfare. It's there's real spiritual warfare. It's there's real spiritual warfare. It's like literally principalities and like literally principalities and like literally principalities and powers. And so to be able to serve the powers. And so to be able to serve the powers. And so to be able to serve the city, uh, but just to preach the gospel city, uh, but just to preach the gospel city, uh, but just to preach the gospel in the heart of the city, um, I think in the heart of the city, um, I think in the heart of the city, um, I think it's attractive for people and, um, one it's attractive for people and, um, one it's attractive for people and, um, one of the reasons we feel called to stay of the reasons we feel called to stay of the reasons we feel called to stay here.

here. here. >> So let's talk about the economics if >> So let's talk about the economics if >> So let's talk about the economics if you're willing to go there. So you got you're willing to go there. So you got you're willing to go there. So you got eight or nine00 people on a Sunday. eight or nine00 people on a Sunday. eight or nine00 people on a Sunday. What's the price tag of retrofitting What's the price tag of retrofitting What's the price tag of retrofitting this building? Because this is a story this building? Because this is a story this building? Because this is a story in England. Like a lot of the growing in England. Like a lot of the growing in England. Like a lot of the growing churches, I'm going there in 2027 to do churches, I'm going there in 2027 to do churches, I'm going there in 2027 to do some training of a lot of church leaders some training of a lot of church leaders some training of a lot of church leaders in Europe, but they're inheriting these in Europe, but they're inheriting these in Europe, but they're inheriting these ca cathedrals, which sounds like a gift, ca cathedrals, which sounds like a gift, ca cathedrals, which sounds like a gift, right? Oh man, we have this 200-y old right? Oh man, we have this 200-y old right? Oh man, we have this 200-y old cathedral. cathedral. cathedral. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But they're almost condemnable. You >> But they're almost condemnable. You >> But they're almost condemnable. You know, they've been neglected by the 40 know, they've been neglected by the 40 know, they've been neglected by the 40 people who have been faithful and been people who have been faithful and been people who have been faithful and been there for years. So, you get this. there for years. So, you get this. there for years. So, you get this. What's the price tag of actually making What's the price tag of actually making What's the price tag of actually making it your own? it your own? it your own? Yeah. So really um it's a it's a Yeah. So really um it's a it's a Yeah. So really um it's a it's a combination of a lot of different combination of a lot of different combination of a lot of different things. One is the generosity of the things. One is the generosity of the things. One is the generosity of the people who have called National Baptist people who have called National Baptist people who have called National Baptist Memorial Church home for all these Memorial Church home for all these Memorial Church home for all these years. The fact that they say we want to years. The fact that they say we want to years. The fact that they say we want to keep this as a church. We don't want to keep this as a church. We don't want to keep this as a church. We don't want to sell out to developers. That's like a sell out to developers. That's like a sell out to developers. That's like a that's a heroic act in and of itself. that's a heroic act in and of itself. that's a heroic act in and of itself. And so it really started with that And so it really started with that And so it really started with that generosity to say no, we want this to generosity to say no, we want this to generosity to say no, we want this to continue to be a place of worship. Um continue to be a place of worship. Um continue to be a place of worship. Um but then the the price tag of renovation but then the the price tag of renovation but then the the price tag of renovation about $ 37.5 million right now. And so about $ 37.5 million right now. And so about $ 37.5 million right now. And so that's come through a couple capital that's come through a couple capital that's come through a couple capital campaigns internally from inviting campaigns internally from inviting campaigns internally from inviting people beyond our church that believe in people beyond our church that believe in people beyond our church that believe in this mission. Um, but one of the other this mission. Um, but one of the other this mission. Um, but one of the other things that we're doing, and this is things that we're doing, and this is things that we're doing, and this is just the the God story of being in DC just the the God story of being in DC just the the God story of being in DC and being connected with different and being connected with different and being connected with different people, is that uh we're in the final people, is that uh we're in the final people, is that uh we're in the final stages of being approved for historic stages of being approved for historic stages of being approved for historic tax credits, which will enable bring tax credits, which will enable bring tax credits, which will enable bring several million more dollars into this several million more dollars into this several million more dollars into this project, um, as well. And so, it's just

project, um, as well. And so, it's just project, um, as well. And so, it's just a a various aspects that kind of bring a a various aspects that kind of bring a a various aspects that kind of bring it all together. So, you got to be it all together. So, you got to be it all together. So, you got to be creative. Erin, one of the reasons I creative. Erin, one of the reasons I creative. Erin, one of the reasons I want to have this conversation is the want to have this conversation is the want to have this conversation is the price of real estate since COVID is price of real estate since COVID is price of real estate since COVID is staggering. Just staggering. And there staggering. Just staggering. And there staggering. Just staggering. And there was a time where you could build like I was a time where you could build like I was a time where you could build like I remember our first build it was $2.1 remember our first build it was $2.1 remember our first build it was $2.1 million which felt like $200 million. million which felt like $200 million. million which felt like $200 million. But right now But right now But right now >> that feels like a joke. Yeah. >> that feels like a joke. Yeah. >> that feels like a joke. Yeah. >> And I know even in not big cities like >> And I know even in not big cities like >> And I know even in not big cities like DC or New York or LA or Chicago, you DC or New York or LA or Chicago, you DC or New York or LA or Chicago, you know, you could you could be in some know, you could you could be in some know, you could you could be in some town of 100,000 people. You have a good town of 100,000 people. You have a good town of 100,000 people. You have a good church going and it's going to cost you church going and it's going to cost you church going and it's going to cost you $10 million to build. $10 million to build. $10 million to build. >> And that just seems so out of reach for >> And that just seems so out of reach for >> And that just seems so out of reach for so many church planters. And when you so many church planters. And when you so many church planters. And when you told me, you know, eight or 900 people, told me, you know, eight or 900 people, told me, you know, eight or 900 people, $37 million, I'm like, whoa. like we got $37 million, I'm like, whoa. like we got $37 million, I'm like, whoa. like we got to talk about this. Walk people through to talk about this. Walk people through to talk about this. Walk people through it because I think vision dies when it it because I think vision dies when it it because I think vision dies when it seems impossible.

seems impossible. seems impossible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There are a lot of people listening to >> There are a lot of people listening to >> There are a lot of people listening to this who have planted a church, this who have planted a church, this who have planted a church, inherited a church, and they're looking inherited a church, and they're looking inherited a church, and they're looking at a price tag that seems way beyond at a price tag that seems way beyond at a price tag that seems way beyond anything possible. And I'm guessing you anything possible. And I'm guessing you anything possible. And I'm guessing you probably felt that way as well when you probably felt that way as well when you probably felt that way as well when you really looked at it and went like, really looked at it and went like, really looked at it and went like, "Seriously, it's a gift, but it's $37 "Seriously, it's a gift, but it's $37 "Seriously, it's a gift, but it's $37 million gift." Like, are you kidding me? million gift." Like, are you kidding me? million gift." Like, are you kidding me? like walk us through that process like walk us through that process like walk us through that process because I think you're going to speak because I think you're going to speak because I think you're going to speak hope into a lot of people. hope into a lot of people. hope into a lot of people. >> Yeah. Well, it's definitely something >> Yeah. Well, it's definitely something >> Yeah. Well, it's definitely something like this is not something that you do like this is not something that you do like this is not something that you do unless God calls you to do it because unless God calls you to do it because unless God calls you to do it because you will burn yourself out. And as I you will burn yourself out. And as I you will burn yourself out. And as I keep saying is I'm not we're not in the keep saying is I'm not we're not in the keep saying is I'm not we're not in the building business. We're I'm not a building business. We're I'm not a building business. We're I'm not a developer. That's not why I went into developer. That's not why I went into developer. That's not why I went into ministry. It's ministry. It's ministry. It's >> Yeah. You don't have a background in >> Yeah. You don't have a background in >> Yeah. You don't have a background in real estate or or architecture. real estate or or architecture. real estate or or architecture. >> I I got in ministry to help people. Help >> I I got in ministry to help people. Help >> I I got in ministry to help people. Help people follow Jesus. Help people love people follow Jesus. Help people love people follow Jesus. Help people love Jesus. tell people serve the city. I Jesus. tell people serve the city. I Jesus. tell people serve the city. I didn't would want to become a developer didn't would want to become a developer didn't would want to become a developer or understand that. But the the the or understand that. But the the the or understand that. But the the the reality is that buildings when they're reality is that buildings when they're reality is that buildings when they're used well can be activated to serve used well can be activated to serve used well can be activated to serve people well. And so one of the things we people well. And so one of the things we people well. And so one of the things we did, we're in a um resource initiative did, we're in a um resource initiative did, we're in a um resource initiative right now called Restore. And as I right now called Restore. And as I right now called Restore. And as I invited our core leaders into that this invited our core leaders into that this invited our core leaders into that this two-year generosity journey, one of the two-year generosity journey, one of the two-year generosity journey, one of the things I did was we toured the space.

things I did was we toured the space. things I did was we toured the space. And so they saw the current condition And so they saw the current condition And so they saw the current condition and then we went back to the the school and then we went back to the the school and then we went back to the the school where we first met in which is the where we first met in which is the where we first met in which is the basement of a church that got converted basement of a church that got converted basement of a church that got converted into a school. And I shared the humble into a school. And I shared the humble into a school. And I shared the humble beginnings about how we started as this beginnings about how we started as this beginnings about how we started as this scrappy house church that then grew and scrappy house church that then grew and scrappy house church that then grew and we launched with 50 people. This was 16 we launched with 50 people. This was 16 we launched with 50 people. This was 16 years ago before all the church planning years ago before all the church planning years ago before all the church planning networks and trainings and coaching and networks and trainings and coaching and networks and trainings and coaching and all of that. And so we were just kind of all of that. And so we were just kind of all of that. And so we were just kind of scrappy church plant uh growing from scrappy church plant uh growing from scrappy church plant uh growing from there. And I just reminded us like there. And I just reminded us like there. And I just reminded us like >> before it got sexy. Yeah. >> before it got sexy. Yeah. >> before it got sexy. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like this is crazy. But then we >> Yeah. Like this is crazy. But then we >> Yeah. Like this is crazy. But then we moved to the school next door to us and moved to the school next door to us and moved to the school next door to us and that's the high school that we've been that's the high school that we've been that's the high school that we've been meeting in for 11 years. And then this meeting in for 11 years. And then this meeting in for 11 years. And then this church building is on the same block. So church building is on the same block. So church building is on the same block. So God is opening doors for us to remain on God is opening doors for us to remain on God is opening doors for us to remain on the same block in DC. So that's crazy. the same block in DC. So that's crazy. the same block in DC. So that's crazy. So there's just kind of this God story So there's just kind of this God story So there's just kind of this God story there. So what's the God story? There there. So what's the God story? There there. So what's the God story? There has to be a God story in it for it to has to be a God story in it for it to has to be a God story in it for it to attract people to want to make attract people to want to make attract people to want to make sacrificial investments. One of the sacrificial investments. One of the sacrificial investments. One of the things I did is I took folks to the things I did is I took folks to the things I did is I took folks to the basement where we started uh first in basement where we started uh first in basement where we started uh first in the old school was I wrote down um a the old school was I wrote down um a the old school was I wrote down um a prayer for the year 2040 and I wrote it prayer for the year 2040 and I wrote it prayer for the year 2040 and I wrote it was called can you imagine and it was was called can you imagine and it was was called can you imagine and it was just a vision that God had given me a just a vision that God had given me a just a vision that God had given me a prayer for revival in our nation's prayer for revival in our nation's prayer for revival in our nation's capital and it was just can you imagine capital and it was just can you imagine capital and it was just can you imagine you know young people uh flocking to the you know young people uh flocking to the you know young people uh flocking to the church uh lines uh down the street to church uh lines uh down the street to church uh lines uh down the street to get in for all night prayer. Can you get in for all night prayer. Can you get in for all night prayer. Can you imagine um the church reversing the imagine um the church reversing the imagine um the church reversing the foster care wait list in DC? So there's foster care wait list in DC? So there's foster care wait list in DC? So there's more families that are waiting to foster more families that are waiting to foster more families that are waiting to foster and adopt kids and there are kids on a and adopt kids and there are kids on a and adopt kids and there are kids on a wait list waiting to be fostered and

wait list waiting to be fostered and wait list waiting to be fostered and adopted and just went through this whole adopted and just went through this whole adopted and just went through this whole thing and ask people to begin to pray thing and ask people to begin to pray thing and ask people to begin to pray into that. And the people in our church into that. And the people in our church into that. And the people in our church came forward with such sacri and we have came forward with such sacri and we have came forward with such sacri and we have a young church by the way like young a young church by the way like young a young church by the way like young people. People came with such people. People came with such people. People came with such sacrificial investment because they saw sacrificial investment because they saw sacrificial investment because they saw that the building was a means to a that the building was a means to a that the building was a means to a greater end. first and foremost to greater end. first and foremost to greater end. first and foremost to glorify God. That this would be a place glorify God. That this would be a place glorify God. That this would be a place where the presence of God would be felt where the presence of God would be felt where the presence of God would be felt in a city that feels divided and in a city that feels divided and in a city that feels divided and racially polarized, politically racially polarized, politically racially polarized, politically polarized. That this would be a place of polarized. That this would be a place of polarized. That this would be a place of peace where people can meet the Lord, peace where people can meet the Lord, peace where people can meet the Lord, but it's also a place where God's people but it's also a place where God's people but it's also a place where God's people will be mobilized for for mission and will be mobilized for for mission and will be mobilized for for mission and it's it's a tool for advancing the it's it's a tool for advancing the it's it's a tool for advancing the kingdom of God. And so when people began kingdom of God. And so when people began kingdom of God. And so when people began to see that, I think that's what then, to see that, I think that's what then, to see that, I think that's what then, you know, led to a lot of sacrificial you know, led to a lot of sacrificial you know, led to a lot of sacrificial commitment. So I think people want to be commitment. So I think people want to be commitment. So I think people want to be invited into a vision where they can bet invited into a vision where they can bet invited into a vision where they can bet their life on it and make sacrifices. their life on it and make sacrifices. their life on it and make sacrifices. People are done just living for the People are done just living for the People are done just living for the American dream. And so we as pastors American dream. And so we as pastors American dream. And so we as pastors just want to encourage whoever's just want to encourage whoever's just want to encourage whoever's listening. You might feel like, you listening. You might feel like, you listening. You might feel like, you know, like you're like, I've got this know, like you're like, I've got this know, like you're like, I've got this big campaign. I don't like raising big campaign. I don't like raising big campaign. I don't like raising money. I don't like raising money money. I don't like raising money money. I don't like raising money either. But for you to look somebody in either. But for you to look somebody in either. But for you to look somebody in the eye and invite people into a vision the eye and invite people into a vision the eye and invite people into a vision that's not ultimately about you, but is that's not ultimately about you, but is that's not ultimately about you, but is about something bigger than you, that's about something bigger than you, that's about something bigger than you, that's a gift to people to be able to do that.

a gift to people to be able to do that. a gift to people to be able to do that. So see your building within the bigger So see your building within the bigger So see your building within the bigger vision. vision. vision. >> Yeah. So I think that's really helpful >> Yeah. So I think that's really helpful >> Yeah. So I think that's really helpful because it's very easy to say we have because it's very easy to say we have because it's very easy to say we have this gift. Here's our problem. It's 37 this gift. Here's our problem. It's 37 this gift. Here's our problem. It's 37 $50 million to open the doors and not be $50 million to open the doors and not be $50 million to open the doors and not be condemned by public health or whatever condemned by public health or whatever condemned by public health or whatever it is. That's that's a good problem, but it is. That's that's a good problem, but it is. That's that's a good problem, but it's not an inspiring vision. it's not an inspiring vision. it's not an inspiring vision. And okay, walk us through and I know you And okay, walk us through and I know you And okay, walk us through and I know you know giving is confidential and and and know giving is confidential and and and know giving is confidential and and and it should be it should be but you have it should be it should be but you have it should be it should be but you have so many leaders listening right now who so many leaders listening right now who so many leaders listening right now who are in exactly your shoes and whether are in exactly your shoes and whether are in exactly your shoes and whether it's 3.7 million 37 million whatever it it's 3.7 million 37 million whatever it it's 3.7 million 37 million whatever it is they're like I look at our people and is they're like I look at our people and is they're like I look at our people and I'm like come on it's Gideon and the 300 I'm like come on it's Gideon and the 300 I'm like come on it's Gideon and the 300 men and how are we going to win this men and how are we going to win this men and how are we going to win this battle of Jericho? Like I do not battle of Jericho? Like I do not battle of Jericho? Like I do not understand. So, how does a core of 8 or understand. So, how does a core of 8 or understand. So, how does a core of 8 or 900 on a Sunday raise the money that's 900 on a Sunday raise the money that's 900 on a Sunday raise the money that's going to allow you to fulfill that kind going to allow you to fulfill that kind going to allow you to fulfill that kind of vision and move into that new of vision and move into that new of vision and move into that new facility?

facility? facility? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's equal sacrifice >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's equal sacrifice >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's equal sacrifice across the board. And so, it's inviting across the board. And so, it's inviting across the board. And so, it's inviting people for 100% participation so that people for 100% participation so that people for 100% participation so that everyone can participate. Um, and it's everyone can participate. Um, and it's everyone can participate. Um, and it's not about, you know, how much we give, not about, you know, how much we give, not about, you know, how much we give, but it's the sacrifice we give in. But but it's the sacrifice we give in. But but it's the sacrifice we give in. But it's really discipling people and it's it's really discipling people and it's it's really discipling people and it's getting people in an environment where getting people in an environment where getting people in an environment where it's not really about the project first. it's not really about the project first. it's not really about the project first. It's more about our hearts and about It's more about our hearts and about It's more about our hearts and about what God is doing in us. One of the what God is doing in us. One of the what God is doing in us. One of the things I often say to our people is we things I often say to our people is we things I often say to our people is we live in the richest city in the richest live in the richest city in the richest live in the richest city in the richest country in human history. So, it's country in human history. So, it's country in human history. So, it's something like five of the 10 wealthiest something like five of the 10 wealthiest something like five of the 10 wealthiest counties surround DC. Now I'm in the counties surround DC. Now I'm in the counties surround DC. Now I'm in the urban core. A lot more poverty. It's urban core. A lot more poverty. It's urban core. A lot more poverty. It's where young people live. So it's not where young people live. So it's not where young people live. So it's not where people settle and buy the big where people settle and buy the big where people settle and buy the big houses. houses. houses. >> It's a low rent district. >> It's a low rent district. >> It's a low rent district. >> Yeah. So it's it's but but I'm like I >> Yeah. So it's it's but but I'm like I >> Yeah. So it's it's but but I'm like I don't want to have to stand before God don't want to have to stand before God don't want to have to stand before God one day and say, "God, thank you for one day and say, "God, thank you for one day and say, "God, thank you for giving me all this vision to reach our giving me all this vision to reach our giving me all this vision to reach our nation's capital." And yet I was born in nation's capital." And yet I was born in nation's capital." And yet I was born in the richest country in human history and the richest country in human history and the richest country in human history and you placed me in a place like DC and I you placed me in a place like DC and I you placed me in a place like DC and I was too scared to invite people to was too scared to invite people to was too scared to invite people to sacrificially give to your mission. And sacrificially give to your mission. And sacrificially give to your mission. And so I I just would encourage anyone just so I I just would encourage anyone just so I I just would encourage anyone just do what God has given you. Like the do what God has given you. Like the do what God has given you. Like the resources that you need to achieve the resources that you need to achieve the resources that you need to achieve the vision that he's given for you are in vision that he's given for you are in vision that he's given for you are in your church or they're in your community your church or they're in your community your church or they're in your community or you know people that might not be in or you know people that might not be in or you know people that might not be in your church but they want to invest in your church but they want to invest in your church but they want to invest in that as well. And so invite them to be that as well. And so invite them to be that as well. And so invite them to be to be a part of that. There is a lot to be a part of that. There is a lot to be a part of that. There is a lot there are a lot of wealthy people in the there are a lot of wealthy people in the there are a lot of wealthy people in the US right now. Many of them are

US right now. Many of them are US right now. Many of them are Christians. They want to be able to give Christians. They want to be able to give Christians. They want to be able to give to great causes. Um, but it starts with to great causes. Um, but it starts with to great causes. Um, but it starts with relationship and it starts with vision. relationship and it starts with vision. relationship and it starts with vision. That's what it's always been about. This That's what it's always been about. This That's what it's always been about. This episode is brought to you by my episode is brought to you by my episode is brought to you by my preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know if you can relate to I'd love to know if you can relate to I'd love to know if you can relate to this. It's Thursday night. Sunday's this. It's Thursday night. Sunday's this. It's Thursday night. Sunday's message is not coming together quite message is not coming together quite message is not coming together quite right. And you can feel the pressure right. And you can feel the pressure right. And you can feel the pressure building. It's hard to decide what to building. It's hard to decide what to building. It's hard to decide what to add, what to cut, and how everything add, what to cut, and how everything add, what to cut, and how everything fits together. So, by the time Saturday fits together. So, by the time Saturday fits together. So, by the time Saturday rolls around, you're still not done. And rolls around, you're still not done. And rolls around, you're still not done. And you got to call it just the way it is. you got to call it just the way it is. you got to call it just the way it is. even if you're secondguessing some of even if you're secondguessing some of even if you're secondguessing some of it. That's where my 10-step preaching it. That's where my 10-step preaching it. That's where my 10-step preaching cheat sheet can help. It's your quick cheat sheet can help. It's your quick cheat sheet can help. It's your quick check guide to ensure you have an check guide to ensure you have an check guide to ensure you have an engaging, clear, and memorable sermon engaging, clear, and memorable sermon engaging, clear, and memorable sermon ready for Sunday morning. From your ready for Sunday morning. From your ready for Sunday morning. From your opening line to landing the plane at the opening line to landing the plane at the opening line to landing the plane at the end of your sermon, because you don't end of your sermon, because you don't end of your sermon, because you don't want to crash landing and every step in want to crash landing and every step in want to crash landing and every step in between, you can use the 10 steps during between, you can use the 10 steps during between, you can use the 10 steps during sermon prep to ensure you're ready to sermon prep to ensure you're ready to sermon prep to ensure you're ready to deliver an impactful message every time deliver an impactful message every time deliver an impactful message every time you preach. And big news, this is a new you preach. And big news, this is a new you preach. And big news, this is a new version of the cheat sheet. So, if version of the cheat sheet. So, if version of the cheat sheet. So, if you've downloaded it before, be sure to you've downloaded it before, be sure to you've downloaded it before, be sure to get this one in your hands. You can get this one in your hands. You can get this one in your hands. You can download your copy absolutely free by download your copy absolutely free by download your copy absolutely free by clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of this episode or by visiting this episode or by visiting this episode or by visiting preachingsheet.com.

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That's alphausa.org. That's alphausa.org. rg/cary. rg/cary. rg/cary. So, you've been at this for 16 years. So, you've been at this for 16 years. So, you've been at this for 16 years. You you mentioned, you know, I don't You you mentioned, you know, I don't You you mentioned, you know, I don't want to be too afraid to ask people to want to be too afraid to ask people to want to be too afraid to ask people to give to something bigger than give to something bigger than give to something bigger than themselves. What was that journey like themselves. What was that journey like themselves. What was that journey like for you as a young leader? I mean, maybe for you as a young leader? I mean, maybe for you as a young leader? I mean, maybe you arrived fully formed day one. A lot you arrived fully formed day one. A lot you arrived fully formed day one. A lot of us, we kind of have to grow into of us, we kind of have to grow into of us, we kind of have to grow into where we are. So, what are some of the where we are. So, what are some of the where we are. So, what are some of the obstacles you had to overcome personally obstacles you had to overcome personally obstacles you had to overcome personally that that that maybe made would have made you afraid of maybe made would have made you afraid of maybe made would have made you afraid of this kind of an ask a decade ago? like this kind of an ask a decade ago? like this kind of an ask a decade ago? like what what personal demons did you have what what personal demons did you have what what personal demons did you have to slay? to slay? to slay? >> Yeah. Well, it's so connected to my own >> Yeah. Well, it's so connected to my own >> Yeah. Well, it's so connected to my own story, Carrie. Like I grew up as a story, Carrie. Like I grew up as a story, Carrie. Like I grew up as a missionary kid in Liberia. We went um missionary kid in Liberia. We went um missionary kid in Liberia. We went um had to leave because of the civil war, had to leave because of the civil war, had to leave because of the civil war, but I was surrounded by poverty at a but I was surrounded by poverty at a but I was surrounded by poverty at a young age. And then we went to Kuwait. young age. And then we went to Kuwait. young age. And then we went to Kuwait. Persian Gulf War broke out. Ended up Persian Gulf War broke out. Ended up Persian Gulf War broke out. Ended up having to leave that. Our family was having to leave that. Our family was having to leave that. Our family was held captive in that, held hostage in held captive in that, held hostage in held captive in that, held hostage in that. And so at 10 years old, I had been that. And so at 10 years old, I had been that. And so at 10 years old, I had been around poverty and war. ended up around poverty and war. ended up around poverty and war. ended up settling in Richmond, Virginia, the settling in Richmond, Virginia, the settling in Richmond, Virginia, the suburbs of Richmond, Virginia, where I suburbs of Richmond, Virginia, where I suburbs of Richmond, Virginia, where I went to middle school, high school, and went to middle school, high school, and went to middle school, high school, and then college at the University of then college at the University of then college at the University of Richmond, which is a very preppy, Richmond, which is a very preppy, Richmond, which is a very preppy, upwardly mobile school. And I had felt upwardly mobile school. And I had felt upwardly mobile school. And I had felt called into ministry when I was in high called into ministry when I was in high called into ministry when I was in high school. And so when I graduated from school. And so when I graduated from school. And so when I graduated from University of Richmond, I knew I wanted University of Richmond, I knew I wanted University of Richmond, I knew I wanted to go serve the Lord. But I really felt to go serve the Lord. But I really felt to go serve the Lord. But I really felt called to move to Boston and to go do called to move to Boston and to go do called to move to Boston and to go do urban ministry. And I literally gave urban ministry. And I literally gave urban ministry. And I literally gave everything I had away. I took Matthew 10 everything I had away. I took Matthew 10 everything I had away. I took Matthew 10 of Jesus's commands to take nothing with of Jesus's commands to take nothing with of Jesus's commands to take nothing with you. I I took it literally and moved up you. I I took it literally and moved up you. I I took it literally and moved up to Boston with a book bag and was to Boston with a book bag and was to Boston with a book bag and was prepared to live on the streets. And for prepared to live on the streets. And for prepared to live on the streets. And for me, that was detoxing from the American

me, that was detoxing from the American me, that was detoxing from the American dream where I'd been so formed to think dream where I'd been so formed to think dream where I'd been so formed to think that my worth and identity was in that my worth and identity was in that my worth and identity was in material things. And it was like God had material things. And it was like God had material things. And it was like God had to cleanse me from that. And I was to cleanse me from that. And I was to cleanse me from that. And I was living in poverty in Boston. And God living in poverty in Boston. And God living in poverty in Boston. And God spoke to me when I was 22 years old and spoke to me when I was 22 years old and spoke to me when I was 22 years old and said, "I'm going to entrust you with said, "I'm going to entrust you with said, "I'm going to entrust you with millions of dollars to steward for the millions of dollars to steward for the millions of dollars to steward for the kingdom. Not me millions of dollars, but kingdom. Not me millions of dollars, but kingdom. Not me millions of dollars, but to steward millions of dollars for the to steward millions of dollars for the to steward millions of dollars for the kingdom." And so I had to get over kingdom." And so I had to get over kingdom." And so I had to get over myself. And then I was like, "Where do I myself. And then I was like, "Where do I myself. And then I was like, "Where do I need to get trained for this?" And so I need to get trained for this?" And so I need to get trained for this?" And so I applied to the Kennedy School of applied to the Kennedy School of applied to the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, got in on it was Government at Harvard, got in on it was Government at Harvard, got in on it was miraculous that I got in, but I studied miraculous that I got in, but I studied miraculous that I got in, but I studied u public policy and leadership and u public policy and leadership and u public policy and leadership and financial stewardship because I was financial stewardship because I was financial stewardship because I was like, so many great churches and like, so many great churches and like, so many great churches and ministries are on the front lines of ministries are on the front lines of ministries are on the front lines of ministries, but they're not scaling. ministries, but they're not scaling. ministries, but they're not scaling. they don't have the ability to scale to they don't have the ability to scale to they don't have the ability to scale to meet the needs. The people closest to meet the needs. The people closest to meet the needs. The people closest to the problems, closest to the poor are, the problems, closest to the poor are, the problems, closest to the poor are, they have great hearts, but the they have great hearts, but the they have great hearts, but the organizational infrastructure is not in organizational infrastructure is not in organizational infrastructure is not in a way where it can attract resources and a way where it can attract resources and a way where it can attract resources and scale. And so for me, um, being in scale. And so for me, um, being in scale. And so for me, um, being in Boston, uh, basically being like on the Boston, uh, basically being like on the Boston, uh, basically being like on the edge of homelessness, I met my wife edge of homelessness, I met my wife edge of homelessness, I met my wife miraculously in the midst of that. I miraculously in the midst of that. I miraculously in the midst of that. I don't know what she saw in me then. Um, don't know what she saw in me then. Um, don't know what she saw in me then. Um, but then we did urban ministry for 5 but then we did urban ministry for 5 but then we did urban ministry for 5 years. We pastored a church in the inner years. We pastored a church in the inner years. We pastored a church in the inner city of Boston. I never baptized. I I city of Boston. I never baptized. I I city of Boston. I never baptized. I I baptized several people, but I never did baptized several people, but I never did baptized several people, but I never did a wedding in five years. I did several a wedding in five years. I did several a wedding in five years. I did several funerals. Most of them were for kids funerals. Most of them were for kids funerals. Most of them were for kids that were killed on the streets of that were killed on the streets of that were killed on the streets of Boston. Uh on so so my my school of Boston. Uh on so so my my school of Boston. Uh on so so my my school of ministry was really painful. It was out ministry was really painful. It was out ministry was really painful. It was out of the limelight. It was not sexy. You of the limelight. It was not sexy. You of the limelight. It was not sexy. You know, people made change in the offering

know, people made change in the offering know, people made change in the offering basket every week at church. That's how basket every week at church. That's how basket every week at church. That's how poor the church was. That was my poor the church was. That was my poor the church was. That was my formation for for 5 years. So then when formation for for 5 years. So then when formation for for 5 years. So then when God called me to DC God called me to DC God called me to DC and I just had this this sense that like and I just had this this sense that like and I just had this this sense that like no the kingdom of God is more attractive no the kingdom of God is more attractive no the kingdom of God is more attractive than the American dream and we need to than the American dream and we need to than the American dream and we need to invite people into that. And so for me invite people into that. And so for me invite people into that. And so for me it's not because I love fundraising. it's not because I love fundraising. it's not because I love fundraising. It's just that it's part of my own It's just that it's part of my own It's just that it's part of my own journey where I see so much poverty in journey where I see so much poverty in journey where I see so much poverty in the world. I see so much war in the the world. I see so much war in the the world. I see so much war in the world. So many challenges. And I think world. So many challenges. And I think world. So many challenges. And I think that the church, Tony Evans says it this that the church, Tony Evans says it this that the church, Tony Evans says it this way. He says the church should be the way. He says the church should be the way. He says the church should be the headlight, not the tail light. And so we headlight, not the tail light. And so we headlight, not the tail light. And so we need to be on the front end of solving need to be on the front end of solving need to be on the front end of solving some of the most complex social issues some of the most complex social issues some of the most complex social issues of our day. And so that's that's what of our day. And so that's that's what of our day. And so that's that's what fires me up and invites me people fires me up and invites me people fires me up and invites me people invites me to uh causes me to invite invites me to uh causes me to invite invites me to uh causes me to invite people into this journey. people into this journey. people into this journey. >> Erin, you said so much [laughter] >> Erin, you said so much [laughter] >> Erin, you said so much [laughter] in just a few minutes. That's like, oh in just a few minutes. That's like, oh in just a few minutes. That's like, oh man, man, man, >> I get fired up, you know. So >> I get fired up, you know. So >> I get fired up, you know. So >> no, no, no, but like you say it so >> no, no, no, but like you say it so >> no, no, no, but like you say it so casually. It's so twice before your what casually. It's so twice before your what casually. It's so twice before your what birthday you're in war and have to birthday you're in war and have to birthday you're in war and have to leave.

leave. leave. in Liberia. How how old were you then? in Liberia. How how old were you then? in Liberia. How how old were you then? >> So I was six years old when we moved to >> So I was six years old when we moved to >> So I was six years old when we moved to Liberia and then we had to leave when I Liberia and then we had to leave when I Liberia and then we had to leave when I was nine. The civil war broke out. was nine. The civil war broke out. was nine. The civil war broke out. Brutal civil war. So many people were Brutal civil war. So many people were Brutal civil war. So many people were killed. Lost all of our stuff there. killed. Lost all of our stuff there. killed. Lost all of our stuff there. Thankfully we were okay. Then we moved Thankfully we were okay. Then we moved Thankfully we were okay. Then we moved to this tiny little country nobody had to this tiny little country nobody had to this tiny little country nobody had heard of called Kuwait. Uh my dad was heard of called Kuwait. Uh my dad was heard of called Kuwait. Uh my dad was one the first Southern Baptist one the first Southern Baptist one the first Southern Baptist missionary in Kuwait. And then we we had missionary in Kuwait. And then we we had missionary in Kuwait. And then we we had lived there for uh 3 months. And then lived there for uh 3 months. And then lived there for uh 3 months. And then Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi troops, Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi troops, Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi troops, which was the fourth largest army in the which was the fourth largest army in the which was the fourth largest army in the world, invaded Kuwait. And uh my mom, my world, invaded Kuwait. And uh my mom, my world, invaded Kuwait. And uh my mom, my brother, and my dad and I were all held brother, and my dad and I were all held brother, and my dad and I were all held hostage. I was held hostage for six hostage. I was held hostage for six hostage. I was held hostage for six weeks, and my dad was held for another weeks, and my dad was held for another weeks, and my dad was held for another four months. And so um that all four months. And so um that all four months. And so um that all >> by by who? By Iraq. >> by by who? By Iraq. >> by by who? By Iraq. >> By Iraqi troops. Yeah. >> By Iraqi troops. Yeah. >> By Iraqi troops. Yeah. >> What was that like? >> What was that like? >> What was that like? >> Um I mean it was very scary. It was >> Um I mean it was very scary. It was >> Um I mean it was very scary. It was obviously um obviously um obviously um >> Were you Were you held together? Were >> Were you Were you held together? Were >> Were you Were you held together? Were you held apart? you held apart? you held apart? >> We were together. There was a threat the >> We were together. There was a threat the >> We were together. There was a threat the first day that I was going to be first day that I was going to be first day that I was going to be separated from my mom. separated from my mom. separated from my mom. >> And you're how old? Nine, 10. >> And you're how old? Nine, 10. >> And you're how old? Nine, 10. >> I was 10 years old. Yeah. So old enough >> I was 10 years old. Yeah. So old enough >> I was 10 years old. Yeah. So old enough to remember and know what's going on.

to remember and know what's going on. to remember and know what's going on. But um yeah, it was it was brutal. And But um yeah, it was it was brutal. And But um yeah, it was it was brutal. And um I saw dead bodies on the side of the um I saw dead bodies on the side of the um I saw dead bodies on the side of the road. I had guns to my back at different road. I had guns to my back at different road. I had guns to my back at different times. Um, what was hard was when when times. Um, what was hard was when when times. Um, what was hard was when when my mom, my brother, and I came back and my mom, my brother, and I came back and my mom, my brother, and I came back and my dad was still being used as a human my dad was still being used as a human my dad was still being used as a human shield in Kuwait to prevent the US shield in Kuwait to prevent the US shield in Kuwait to prevent the US coalition of forces from going back into coalition of forces from going back into coalition of forces from going back into Kuwait and pushing Iraq back in because Kuwait and pushing Iraq back in because Kuwait and pushing Iraq back in because there was a fear that they were going to there was a fear that they were going to there was a fear that they were going to come into Saudi Arabia and the Middle come into Saudi Arabia and the Middle come into Saudi Arabia and the Middle East. You know, it was about economics East. You know, it was about economics East. You know, it was about economics and oil and other things. And so my dad and oil and other things. And so my dad and oil and other things. And so my dad was being held as a human shield that was being held as a human shield that was being held as a human shield that which was preventing the war from which was preventing the war from which was preventing the war from escalating because US didn't want to escalating because US didn't want to escalating because US didn't want to invade and risk hostages being killed invade and risk hostages being killed invade and risk hostages being killed from the western world that Saddam was from the western world that Saddam was from the western world that Saddam was taken. So on the first week of December taken. So on the first week of December taken. So on the first week of December 1990, 1990, 1990, there was a week of prayer for there was a week of prayer for there was a week of prayer for international missions. Millions of international missions. Millions of international missions. Millions of people were praying for my dad Maurice people were praying for my dad Maurice people were praying for my dad Maurice Graham to be released. And Saddam Graham to be released. And Saddam Graham to be released. And Saddam Hussein had been waking up complaining Hussein had been waking up complaining Hussein had been waking up complaining of troubling dreams that he couldn't of troubling dreams that he couldn't of troubling dreams that he couldn't sleep. He actually looked up to sleep. He actually looked up to sleep. He actually looked up to Nebuchadnezzar like he's from the exact Nebuchadnezzar like he's from the exact Nebuchadnezzar like he's from the exact same part of the world like in Iraq same part of the world like in Iraq same part of the world like in Iraq where Babylon is like.

where Babylon is like. where Babylon is like. >> So in his dreams he's looking up to >> So in his dreams he's looking up to >> So in his dreams he's looking up to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar. >> Well he just >> Well he just >> Well he just >> so he thought of him as a hero. He just >> so he thought of him as a hero. He just >> so he thought of him as a hero. He just thought of him as like somebody you know thought of him as like somebody you know thought of him as like somebody you know from that era. He really looked up to from that era. He really looked up to from that era. He really looked up to Nebuchadnezzar. Well God started Nebuchadnezzar. Well God started Nebuchadnezzar. Well God started troubling Saddam Hussein in his dreams troubling Saddam Hussein in his dreams troubling Saddam Hussein in his dreams in 1990 and he couldn't sleep. And it in 1990 and he couldn't sleep. And it in 1990 and he couldn't sleep. And it happened at the same time of this week happened at the same time of this week happened at the same time of this week of prayer. It got so bad that he woke of prayer. It got so bad that he woke of prayer. It got so bad that he woke up, called his whole cabinet together, up, called his whole cabinet together, up, called his whole cabinet together, and ordered his cabinet to release all and ordered his cabinet to release all and ordered his cabinet to release all of the hostages in Kuwait in Iraq. And of the hostages in Kuwait in Iraq. And of the hostages in Kuwait in Iraq. And so the next day, my dad came back home so the next day, my dad came back home so the next day, my dad came back home uh to join us. We were living in uh to join us. We were living in uh to join us. We were living in Nashville at the time. And my dad went Nashville at the time. And my dad went Nashville at the time. And my dad went and reopened the embassy several months and reopened the embassy several months and reopened the embassy several months later after the war was over with former later after the war was over with former later after the war was over with former President HW Bush. And he said there was President HW Bush. And he said there was President HW Bush. And he said there was no rational explanation for why Saddam no rational explanation for why Saddam no rational explanation for why Saddam Hussein released the troops. There's no Hussein released the troops. There's no Hussein released the troops. There's no political explanation for it. And it's political explanation for it. And it's political explanation for it. And it's like, but at 10 years old, I'm like, I I like, but at 10 years old, I'm like, I I like, but at 10 years old, I'm like, I I know the explanation. The explanation is know the explanation. The explanation is know the explanation. The explanation is that God moved on the heart of one of that God moved on the heart of one of that God moved on the heart of one of the most wicked leaders in the world.

the most wicked leaders in the world. the most wicked leaders in the world. And that just caused me to believe in And that just caused me to believe in And that just caused me to believe in the supernatural realm, the power of the supernatural realm, the power of the supernatural realm, the power of prayer, miracles, and that formed me at prayer, miracles, and that formed me at prayer, miracles, and that formed me at a great way. I mean, I still there's a great way. I mean, I still there's a great way. I mean, I still there's still trauma I have to work through, you still trauma I have to work through, you still trauma I have to work through, you know, related to that. But for me, it's know, related to that. But for me, it's know, related to that. But for me, it's really it's really caused me to lean in really it's really caused me to lean in really it's really caused me to lean in and say like, "No, God, you kept me and say like, "No, God, you kept me and say like, "No, God, you kept me alive for a reason. There's a lot of alive for a reason. There's a lot of alive for a reason. There's a lot of kids that don't make it out of war even kids that don't make it out of war even kids that don't make it out of war even to this day. And so it comes with this to this day. And so it comes with this to this day. And so it comes with this sense of responsibility to make every sense of responsibility to make every sense of responsibility to make every day count. day count. day count. >> So you were sent back to the US when you >> So you were sent back to the US when you >> So you were sent back to the US when you were released and your dad was there and were released and your dad was there and were released and your dad was there and you're watching the headlines and you you're watching the headlines and you you're watching the headlines and you have all that fear every day. Is my dad have all that fear every day. Is my dad have all that fear every day. Is my dad still alive? Is my dad still alive? still alive? Is my dad still alive? still alive? Is my dad still alive? >> Yeah. Yeah. So therapist's office are >> Yeah. Yeah. So therapist's office are >> Yeah. Yeah. So therapist's office are filled with people recovering from filled with people recovering from filled with people recovering from trauma and not to compare stories trauma and not to compare stories trauma and not to compare stories but can't imagine too many things much but can't imagine too many things much but can't imagine too many things much more traumatic than being held hostage more traumatic than being held hostage more traumatic than being held hostage and separated from your family at the and separated from your family at the and separated from your family at the age of 10 and guns to your back and dead age of 10 and guns to your back and dead age of 10 and guns to your back and dead bodies in the street. Like bodies in the street. Like bodies in the street. Like h how did that shape you? Obviously, h how did that shape you? Obviously, h how did that shape you? Obviously, God's used it for good, but like does God's used it for good, but like does God's used it for good, but like does the trauma recur or what what like how the trauma recur or what what like how the trauma recur or what what like how are you navigating that to this point in are you navigating that to this point in are you navigating that to this point in life?

life? life? >> Yeah. Well, one of the things that >> Yeah. Well, one of the things that >> Yeah. Well, one of the things that happened on that first day of the happened on that first day of the happened on that first day of the invasion, which was one of the most invasion, which was one of the most invasion, which was one of the most brutal ones, the several um groups of brutal ones, the several um groups of brutal ones, the several um groups of Iraqi troops broke into our house that Iraqi troops broke into our house that Iraqi troops broke into our house that morning and were one of them was just morning and were one of them was just morning and were one of them was just really violent towards my mom and I was really violent towards my mom and I was really violent towards my mom and I was witnessing it. And I made this I was witnessing it. And I made this I was witnessing it. And I made this I was started praying, actually started started praying, actually started started praying, actually started crying, which God used to break up the crying, which God used to break up the crying, which God used to break up the tension in the room and and actually tension in the room and and actually tension in the room and and actually help end it. But in that moment, I help end it. But in that moment, I help end it. But in that moment, I remember praying to God, God, if you get remember praying to God, God, if you get remember praying to God, God, if you get me out of this, I'll serve you the rest me out of this, I'll serve you the rest me out of this, I'll serve you the rest of my life. of my life. of my life. And so there's a part of that that's And so there's a part of that that's And so there's a part of that that's like awesome. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm like awesome. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm like awesome. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm alive. I'm going to serve God. I'm, you alive. I'm going to serve God. I'm, you alive. I'm going to serve God. I'm, you know, in DC, very fast-paced city, you know, in DC, very fast-paced city, you know, in DC, very fast-paced city, you know, so I can fit in here. But there's know, so I can fit in here. But there's know, so I can fit in here. But there's another side of it that it's like, no, another side of it that it's like, no, another side of it that it's like, no, God's got it. He's sovereign. You know, God's got it. He's sovereign. You know, God's got it. He's sovereign. You know, his yoke is easy, his burden is light. his yoke is easy, his burden is light. his yoke is easy, his burden is light. And so for me, learning to rest, And so for me, learning to rest, And so for me, learning to rest, learning to Sabbath, learning to trust learning to Sabbath, learning to trust learning to Sabbath, learning to trust that God is sovereign, that he's in that God is sovereign, that he's in that God is sovereign, that he's in control, and that I don't have to wake control, and that I don't have to wake control, and that I don't have to wake up every day being like, I've got to up every day being like, I've got to up every day being like, I've got to change the world. Like, God got me out change the world. Like, God got me out change the world. Like, God got me out of this. Like, that's for me, at least of this. Like, that's for me, at least of this. Like, that's for me, at least where I'm at in my story right now. I'm where I'm at in my story right now. I'm where I'm at in my story right now. I'm 46, kind of mid-career, you know, uh mid 46, kind of mid-career, you know, uh mid 46, kind of mid-career, you know, uh mid mid ministry life is just realizing mid ministry life is just realizing mid ministry life is just realizing like, no, I I don't have to put it in like, no, I I don't have to put it in like, no, I I don't have to put it in overdrive all the time. like uh he he's overdrive all the time. like uh he he's overdrive all the time. like uh he he's he's faithful. He he loves me. He he he's faithful. He he loves me. He he he's faithful. He he loves me. He he loves me whether I'm successful in the loves me whether I'm successful in the loves me whether I'm successful in the world's eyes or not, world's eyes or not, world's eyes or not, >> man. Um 22, you get a vision. You're >> man. Um 22, you get a vision. You're >> man. Um 22, you get a vision. You're going to be entrusted with millions of going to be entrusted with millions of going to be entrusted with millions of dollars, which again, 24

dollars, which again, 24 dollars, which again, 24 years ago, if my math is right, was a years ago, if my math is right, was a years ago, if my math is right, was a boatload of money. I mean, still is boatload of money. I mean, still is boatload of money. I mean, still is today. today. today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Strange vision. I got a vision when I >> Strange vision. I got a vision when I >> Strange vision. I got a vision when I was 20 and another story for another day was 20 and another story for another day was 20 and another story for another day where I would be doing something like where I would be doing something like where I would be doing something like this. this. this. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And it was just one of those moments. >> And it was just one of those moments. >> And it was just one of those moments. How did that vision come to you? Tell us How did that vision come to you? Tell us How did that vision come to you? Tell us a little bit more about that. a little bit more about that. a little bit more about that. >> Yeah. So, I was serving the inner city >> Yeah. So, I was serving the inner city >> Yeah. So, I was serving the inner city um this matriarch of the neighborhood um this matriarch of the neighborhood um this matriarch of the neighborhood called Dorchester in Boston. Her name called Dorchester in Boston. Her name called Dorchester in Boston. Her name was Mossis. Her name's Iden, but was Mossis. Her name's Iden, but was Mossis. Her name's Iden, but everybody called her Moses. She was the everybody called her Moses. She was the everybody called her Moses. She was the Mother Teresa of Boston. She had invited Mother Teresa of Boston. She had invited Mother Teresa of Boston. She had invited me to lead a Bible study in an abandoned me to lead a Bible study in an abandoned me to lead a Bible study in an abandoned auto repair shop that ended up turning auto repair shop that ended up turning auto repair shop that ended up turning into a church. So at 22 years old, white into a church. So at 22 years old, white into a church. So at 22 years old, white boy pastoring a black church in the boy pastoring a black church in the boy pastoring a black church in the inner city of Boston. Didn't know what I inner city of Boston. Didn't know what I inner city of Boston. Didn't know what I was doing, but I didn't have a place to was doing, but I didn't have a place to was doing, but I didn't have a place to stay. But she had had a row house next stay. But she had had a row house next stay. But she had had a row house next to her house that she had bought that to her house that she had bought that to her house that she had bought that had basically turned into a crack house. had basically turned into a crack house. had basically turned into a crack house. And she got everybody else out. And the And she got everybody else out. And the And she got everybody else out. And the place was a mess. You can even see out place was a mess. You can even see out place was a mess. You can even see out the windows. There was so much like the windows. There was so much like the windows. There was so much like nicotine stains on the windows. I got in nicotine stains on the windows. I got in nicotine stains on the windows. I got in there, cleaned it up, got some interns, there, cleaned it up, got some interns, there, cleaned it up, got some interns, some summer interns, college students to some summer interns, college students to some summer interns, college students to come live with me and serve in the inner come live with me and serve in the inner come live with me and serve in the inner city because I've always had this city because I've always had this city because I've always had this conviction that if you get outside of conviction that if you get outside of conviction that if you get outside of your comfort zone, that's where you grow your comfort zone, that's where you grow your comfort zone, that's where you grow the most as a disciple. And I remember the most as a disciple. And I remember the most as a disciple. And I remember one morning in my quiet time in the one morning in my quiet time in the one morning in my quiet time in the living room at 22 Drayton Avenue in living room at 22 Drayton Avenue in living room at 22 Drayton Avenue in Boston, Massachusetts, being on my knees Boston, Massachusetts, being on my knees Boston, Massachusetts, being on my knees praying. I had nothing. I gave praying. I had nothing. I gave praying. I had nothing. I gave everything I had away. I used to everything I had away. I used to everything I had away. I used to exchange handwritten letters with Shane exchange handwritten letters with Shane exchange handwritten letters with Shane Claybornne who was also living radically

Claybornne who was also living radically Claybornne who was also living radically in the inner city of Philly. And and I in the inner city of Philly. And and I in the inner city of Philly. And and I just was praying and I was like the just was praying and I was like the just was praying and I was like the scripture came to me in Proverbs 30 I scripture came to me in Proverbs 30 I scripture came to me in Proverbs 30 I believe it says it says give me neither believe it says it says give me neither believe it says it says give me neither poverty nor riches but give me my daily poverty nor riches but give me my daily poverty nor riches but give me my daily bread because if I'm if if I'm poor I'll bread because if I'm if if I'm poor I'll bread because if I'm if if I'm poor I'll be tempted to steal. And I was tempted be tempted to steal. And I was tempted be tempted to steal. And I was tempted to steal when I was poor and had to steal when I was poor and had to steal when I was poor and had nothing. Like I can't imagine nothing. Like I can't imagine nothing. Like I can't imagine >> I I actually was tempted to steal. I >> I I actually was tempted to steal. I >> I I actually was tempted to steal. I never experienced that before. But when never experienced that before. But when never experienced that before. But when you don't have like you're tempted to you don't have like you're tempted to you don't have like you're tempted to steal. So if I'm poor, I'll be tempted steal. So if I'm poor, I'll be tempted steal. So if I'm poor, I'll be tempted to steal. If I'm rich, I'll be tempted to steal. If I'm rich, I'll be tempted to steal. If I'm rich, I'll be tempted to to forget you, God. But give me my to to forget you, God. But give me my to to forget you, God. But give me my daily bread. And so that was this sense daily bread. And so that was this sense daily bread. And so that was this sense that like, okay, God, it's it's not that like, okay, God, it's it's not that like, okay, God, it's it's not about me about me pursuing the American about me about me pursuing the American about me about me pursuing the American dream or getting rich, but it's about dream or getting rich, but it's about dream or getting rich, but it's about serving your church and your people. serving your church and your people. serving your church and your people. God, would you help me have a clear God, would you help me have a clear God, would you help me have a clear conscience that I'm not ever raising conscience that I'm not ever raising conscience that I'm not ever raising money for my own sake, for my own money for my own sake, for my own money for my own sake, for my own lifestyle, and then help me to build lifestyle, and then help me to build lifestyle, and then help me to build systems in our in our church and systems in our in our church and systems in our in our church and structures that are beyond reproach, structures that are beyond reproach, structures that are beyond reproach, that have checks and balances.

that have checks and balances. that have checks and balances. And and I think people see that over And and I think people see that over And and I think people see that over time, like people see years of trying to time, like people see years of trying to time, like people see years of trying to be faithful with little. The scripture be faithful with little. The scripture be faithful with little. The scripture says be faithful with little and then says be faithful with little and then says be faithful with little and then you'll be entrusted with much. And so 22 you'll be entrusted with much. And so 22 you'll be entrusted with much. And so 22 years old, that's where it started. and years old, that's where it started. and years old, that's where it started. and I would had no idea, you know, that now I would had no idea, you know, that now I would had no idea, you know, that now I'd be renovating a cathedral in DC. I'd be renovating a cathedral in DC. I'd be renovating a cathedral in DC. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of Brushfire. When you're in a position of leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to leadership, it's your responsibility to ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in ensure your activities results in growth. Especially when you're in growth. Especially when you're in growth. Especially when you're in ministry, you need an event platform ministry, you need an event platform ministry, you need an event platform that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a that helps you grow your ministry into a season of abundance. So, turn the effort season of abundance. So, turn the effort season of abundance. So, turn the effort of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth of your staff and volunteers into growth by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. by using Brushfire for your events. Breastfire has been helping churches Breastfire has been helping churches Breastfire has been helping churches manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, manage registrations, check-in, communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 communication, and reporting for over 20 years, and it's all in one easy to use years, and it's all in one easy to use years, and it's all in one easy to use platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, platform. And for qualifying churches, they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to they offer a subscription designed to help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners help you grow your ministry. Listeners of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by of this podcast can save on Brushfire by going to brushfire.com/carry.

going to brushfire.com/carry. going to brushfire.com/carry. That's bruhfire.com/cy. You also said a couple times You also said a couple times you knew the American dream was a lie or you knew the American dream was a lie or you knew the American dream was a lie or however you phrased it. What's under however you phrased it. What's under however you phrased it. What's under that? Like what did you see? I mean, that? Like what did you see? I mean, that? Like what did you see? I mean, growing up in Liberia and then briefly growing up in Liberia and then briefly growing up in Liberia and then briefly in Kuwait going through all the trauma in Kuwait going through all the trauma in Kuwait going through all the trauma you did before your 11th birthday, you you did before your 11th birthday, you you did before your 11th birthday, you come to America and you see what's come to America and you see what's come to America and you see what's happening in our culture. And the happening in our culture. And the happening in our culture. And the subtitle of your book is How to Stand subtitle of your book is How to Stand subtitle of your book is How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies. So, I mean, Firm in a Culture of Lies. So, I mean, Firm in a Culture of Lies. So, I mean, it's hard to see it when you've been it's hard to see it when you've been it's hard to see it when you've been raised in it. You're born into it. raised in it. You're born into it. raised in it. You're born into it. You're part of the system. It's hard to You're part of the system. It's hard to You're part of the system. It's hard to see the system. see the system. see the system. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You could see the system. So, what did >> You could see the system. So, what did >> You could see the system. So, what did you see? What do you still see? you see? What do you still see? you see? What do you still see? >> One of the gifts of growing up overseas >> One of the gifts of growing up overseas >> One of the gifts of growing up overseas and being so connected to the global and being so connected to the global and being so connected to the global church is I got to see what researchers church is I got to see what researchers church is I got to see what researchers have been talking about now for 20 or 30 have been talking about now for 20 or 30 have been talking about now for 20 or 30 years, which is the rise of the global years, which is the rise of the global years, which is the rise of the global church. It used to be missions used to church. It used to be missions used to church. It used to be missions used to be the west to the rest, but now places be the west to the rest, but now places be the west to the rest, but now places like Nigeria and South Korea and others like Nigeria and South Korea and others like Nigeria and South Korea and others are sending out more missionaries.

are sending out more missionaries. are sending out more missionaries. Brazil are sending out more missionaries Brazil are sending out more missionaries Brazil are sending out more missionaries in the US right now in the US right now in the US right now >> and they're sending a lot of them are >> and they're sending a lot of them are >> and they're sending a lot of them are sending them to the western world to sending them to the western world to sending them to the western world to re-evangelize re-evangelize re-evangelize the west. the west. the west. >> And so for me I saw the church in >> And so for me I saw the church in >> And so for me I saw the church in America as largely asleep. I just felt America as largely asleep. I just felt America as largely asleep. I just felt like wow the church the way people like wow the church the way people like wow the church the way people worship overseas the way people worship overseas the way people worship overseas the way people sacrifice it it just seems to affect all sacrifice it it just seems to affect all sacrifice it it just seems to affect all of their life. And so when I say, you of their life. And so when I say, you of their life. And so when I say, you know, the American dream, it's like, know, the American dream, it's like, know, the American dream, it's like, well, the what I'm saying the lie of the well, the what I'm saying the lie of the well, the what I'm saying the lie of the American dream is that if you have, you American dream is that if you have, you American dream is that if you have, you know, that six figure income, get that know, that six figure income, get that know, that six figure income, get that house, that white picket fence, 2.5 kids house, that white picket fence, 2.5 kids house, that white picket fence, 2.5 kids or whatever it is, then you'll be or whatever it is, then you'll be or whatever it is, then you'll be fulfilled. And it's like having lived in fulfilled. And it's like having lived in fulfilled. And it's like having lived in DC now many years, I've seen so many DC now many years, I've seen so many DC now many years, I've seen so many people climb to the top of the political people climb to the top of the political people climb to the top of the political ladder or corporate lad ladder and then ladder or corporate lad ladder and then ladder or corporate lad ladder and then look around and realize how empty it is look around and realize how empty it is look around and realize how empty it is and how unfulfilling it is. And so, you and how unfulfilling it is. And so, you and how unfulfilling it is. And so, you know, we want to advance professionally. know, we want to advance professionally. know, we want to advance professionally. We wealth is not a bad thing. Make all We wealth is not a bad thing. Make all We wealth is not a bad thing. Make all the money that you can, but don't be the money that you can, but don't be the money that you can, but don't be deceived by the lie to think that that's deceived by the lie to think that that's deceived by the lie to think that that's ultimately what's fulfilling.

ultimately what's fulfilling. ultimately what's fulfilling. How does that inform How does that inform How does that inform you now with this big vision, 900 you now with this big vision, 900 you now with this big vision, 900 people, $37 million? people, $37 million? people, $37 million? That sounds like a different vision than That sounds like a different vision than That sounds like a different vision than we need to unlock the doors to this we need to unlock the doors to this we need to unlock the doors to this building and renovate the roof. building and renovate the roof. building and renovate the roof. Yeah. Well, for me, it's been it's been Yeah. Well, for me, it's been it's been Yeah. Well, for me, it's been it's been a journey. I mean, once again, the a journey. I mean, once again, the a journey. I mean, once again, the building is just like it's downstream building is just like it's downstream building is just like it's downstream from what God is doing upstream. And so from what God is doing upstream. And so from what God is doing upstream. And so one of the things I'm just super one of the things I'm just super one of the things I'm just super passionate about is just helping people passionate about is just helping people passionate about is just helping people mature in their relationship with Christ mature in their relationship with Christ mature in their relationship with Christ and to help a diverse church do that. and to help a diverse church do that. and to help a diverse church do that. Like so one of the things about our Like so one of the things about our Like so one of the things about our church is that we have people from over church is that we have people from over church is that we have people from over 80 nations 80 nations 80 nations >> that worship in our church. And so at >> that worship in our church. And so at >> that worship in our church. And so at the average newcomers dinner, so every the average newcomers dinner, so every the average newcomers dinner, so every month we'll have a newcomers dinner. month we'll have a newcomers dinner. month we'll have a newcomers dinner. It'll be about 30 people there. It'll be about 30 people there. It'll be about 30 people there. >> And I'll just say, "Hey, raise your hand >> And I'll just say, "Hey, raise your hand >> And I'll just say, "Hey, raise your hand if you weren't born in the US." And then if you weren't born in the US." And then if you weren't born in the US." And then say what country you were born in. say what country you were born in. say what country you were born in. almost every newcomer is a dinner. It's almost every newcomer is a dinner. It's almost every newcomer is a dinner. It's at least 10 people in that dinner of 30 at least 10 people in that dinner of 30 at least 10 people in that dinner of 30 people that were born outside the US. people that were born outside the US. people that were born outside the US. And so it kind of makes my point of like And so it kind of makes my point of like And so it kind of makes my point of like then everybody's like, "Oh yeah, there's then everybody's like, "Oh yeah, there's then everybody's like, "Oh yeah, there's definitely, you know, over 80 nations in definitely, you know, over 80 nations in definitely, you know, over 80 nations in the church." But one of the things that the church." But one of the things that the church." But one of the things that that has caused me to do is it's really that has caused me to do is it's really that has caused me to do is it's really helped challenge me and grow me in my helped challenge me and grow me in my helped challenge me and grow me in my faith um and learn from people that faith um and learn from people that faith um and learn from people that passionately follow Jesus from different passionately follow Jesus from different passionately follow Jesus from different cultures. But it's also one of the gifts cultures. But it's also one of the gifts cultures. But it's also one of the gifts of the global church is it exposes how of the global church is it exposes how of the global church is it exposes how secular the American church has become.

secular the American church has become. secular the American church has become. And that's one of the things that I've And that's one of the things that I've And that's one of the things that I've just been writing about and and speaking just been writing about and and speaking just been writing about and and speaking about is how about is how about is how this individualistic this individualistic this individualistic western culture that's really as old as western culture that's really as old as western culture that's really as old as time but it manifests in western culture time but it manifests in western culture time but it manifests in western culture today is is invading the church and it's today is is invading the church and it's today is is invading the church and it's compromising disciplehip. It's compromising disciplehip. It's compromising disciplehip. It's compromising evangelism. it's compromising evangelism. it's compromising evangelism. it's compromising our ability to do outreach. compromising our ability to do outreach. compromising our ability to do outreach. And uh so that's that's the main work, And uh so that's that's the main work, And uh so that's that's the main work, not not buildings that I'm trying to not not buildings that I'm trying to not not buildings that I'm trying to focus on. focus on. focus on. >> Okay, back to the the size. Thank you. >> Okay, back to the the size. Thank you. >> Okay, back to the the size. Thank you. Thank you so much for that, Thank you so much for that, Thank you so much for that, >> Erin. It's really a remarkable life >> Erin. It's really a remarkable life >> Erin. It's really a remarkable life story. It is. Um story. It is. Um story. It is. Um but standing there smaller, 800, 900 but standing there smaller, 800, 900 but standing there smaller, 800, 900 people, nothing to shake a stick at. people, nothing to shake a stick at. people, nothing to shake a stick at. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. But when you look at the size of the But when you look at the size of the But when you look at the size of the task ahead of you, task ahead of you, task ahead of you, what have been and again you're in an an what have been and again you're in an an what have been and again you're in an an affluent city but in a poor region. affluent city but in a poor region. affluent city but in a poor region. You're not in the the wealthy suburbs. You're not in the the wealthy suburbs. You're not in the the wealthy suburbs. What what are some of the ways you've What what are some of the ways you've What what are some of the ways you've seen people respond and what are they seen people respond and what are they seen people respond and what are they responding to? Like did you get one gift responding to? Like did you get one gift responding to? Like did you get one gift for 30 million, everybody else chipped for 30 million, everybody else chipped for 30 million, everybody else chipped in the other seven? How how did that how in the other seven? How how did that how in the other seven? How how did that how has that played out?

has that played out? has that played out? >> Yeah. No, it's it's really um so we have >> Yeah. No, it's it's really um so we have >> Yeah. No, it's it's really um so we have a lot of young people. We have a lot of a lot of young people. We have a lot of a lot of young people. We have a lot of college students college students college students >> who generally are giving out of income, >> who generally are giving out of income, >> who generally are giving out of income, not wealth, right? not wealth, right? not wealth, right? >> Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, most of our >> Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, most of our >> Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, most of our people give out of income. So, so, so people give out of income. So, so, so people give out of income. So, so, so that's it's just been a lot of sacrifice that's it's just been a lot of sacrifice that's it's just been a lot of sacrifice from folks, but a lot of people who have from folks, but a lot of people who have from folks, but a lot of people who have been in the city who start getting been in the city who start getting been in the city who start getting raises and moving up, they are raises and moving up, they are raises and moving up, they are investing. Like there's a couple in our investing. Like there's a couple in our investing. Like there's a couple in our church that have been in our church like church that have been in our church like church that have been in our church like 13 years. They just bought their first 13 years. They just bought their first 13 years. They just bought their first home last month because they've home last month because they've home last month because they've [clears throat] been giving so [clears throat] been giving so [clears throat] been giving so generously to the church for 12 or 13 generously to the church for 12 or 13 generously to the church for 12 or 13 years. And so years. And so years. And so >> so it cost them something. >> so it cost them something. >> so it cost them something. >> Yeah. So it's it's c this is not like oh >> Yeah. So it's it's c this is not like oh >> Yeah. So it's it's c this is not like oh spare change spare time stuff. This is spare change spare time stuff. This is spare change spare time stuff. This is really sacrificial sacrificial gifts but really sacrificial sacrificial gifts but really sacrificial sacrificial gifts but it's going through the journey of it's going through the journey of it's going through the journey of walking people through the process cuz walking people through the process cuz walking people through the process cuz DC just like a lot of people are DC just like a lot of people are DC just like a lot of people are skeptical of money and pastors and all skeptical of money and pastors and all skeptical of money and pastors and all this stuff. And so how you lead people, this stuff. And so how you lead people, this stuff. And so how you lead people, trust is so important. And so, you know, trust is so important. And so, you know, trust is so important. And so, you know, we've spent a lot of time building that we've spent a lot of time building that we've spent a lot of time building that trust. I've had I've had thousands of trust. I've had I've had thousands of trust. I've had I've had thousands of people in my home over the course of our people in my home over the course of our people in my home over the course of our church. I mean, it start the church church. I mean, it start the church church. I mean, it start the church started in our home, but just there's started in our home, but just there's started in our home, but just there's something different that happens when something different that happens when something different that happens when you have people in your home. They can you have people in your home. They can you have people in your home. They can ask you questions. You build ask you questions. You build ask you questions. You build relationships over time that I think relationships over time that I think relationships over time that I think then manifest on things like when you then manifest on things like when you then manifest on things like when you say, "Hey, we really need you to dig say, "Hey, we really need you to dig say, "Hey, we really need you to dig deep." that people respond to that deep." that people respond to that deep." that people respond to that >> because they've gotten to know you.

>> because they've gotten to know you. >> because they've gotten to know you. Yeah. What advice do you have for Yeah. What advice do you have for Yeah. What advice do you have for leaders listening who are facing a a leaders listening who are facing a a leaders listening who are facing a a similarly similarly similarly impossible task? impossible task? impossible task? They look at the size of the group. They They look at the size of the group. They They look at the size of the group. They look at the size of the project ahead look at the size of the project ahead look at the size of the project ahead and they're like, "Yeah, I don't see how and they're like, "Yeah, I don't see how and they're like, "Yeah, I don't see how these two connect." these two connect." these two connect." >> Well, one of the things that I felt like >> Well, one of the things that I felt like >> Well, one of the things that I felt like the Lord spoke to me the Lord spoke to me the Lord spoke to me early on in this process of this early on in this process of this early on in this process of this building was pace yourself. building was pace yourself. building was pace yourself. Because the enemy would love for a Because the enemy would love for a Because the enemy would love for a pastor to burn out in the process of pastor to burn out in the process of pastor to burn out in the process of renovating a building. And it's like renovating a building. And it's like renovating a building. And it's like it's a building at the end of the day. it's a building at the end of the day. it's a building at the end of the day. Yes, it's an important tool to use for Yes, it's an important tool to use for Yes, it's an important tool to use for the kingdom, but it's a building at the the kingdom, but it's a building at the the kingdom, but it's a building at the end of the day. And so, pace yourself end of the day. And so, pace yourself end of the day. And so, pace yourself and try to discern God's timing. And one and try to discern God's timing. And one and try to discern God's timing. And one of the things I've noticed is I'm the of the things I've noticed is I'm the of the things I've noticed is I'm the most impatient person in our church most impatient person in our church most impatient person in our church about the day that this building opens. about the day that this building opens. about the day that this building opens. Like, nobody else is giving me pressure. Like, nobody else is giving me pressure. Like, nobody else is giving me pressure. Everybody understands like this is Everybody understands like this is Everybody understands like this is complex. this is like there's so many complex. this is like there's so many complex. this is like there's so many different but it's like it's me like I'm different but it's like it's me like I'm different but it's like it's me like I'm the problem and so to be I guess my the problem and so to be I guess my the problem and so to be I guess my encouragement to to those who feel like encouragement to to those who feel like encouragement to to those who feel like wow it's bigger than me but just like wow it's bigger than me but just like wow it's bigger than me but just like discern what God's timing is surround discern what God's timing is surround discern what God's timing is surround yourself with a board and others who are yourself with a board and others who are yourself with a board and others who are speaking into your life that can help speaking into your life that can help speaking into your life that can help you discern you know kyros time God's you discern you know kyros time God's you discern you know kyros time God's timing and not just Kronos time like our timing and not just Kronos time like our timing and not just Kronos time like our our own timing um because God's always our own timing um because God's always our own timing um because God's always on time right like and so he doesn't on time right like and so he doesn't on time right like and so he doesn't wear a watch like we do wear a watch like we do wear a watch like we do >> and so if it's a project God and God's >> and so if it's a project God and God's >> and so if it's a project God and God's in it. He'll make it happen. He'll foot in it. He'll make it happen. He'll foot in it. He'll make it happen. He'll foot the bill and he'll he might do it in the bill and he'll he might do it in the bill and he'll he might do it in unlikely ways, but your persistence to unlikely ways, but your persistence to unlikely ways, but your persistence to stay in the game and to trust God. Um

stay in the game and to trust God. Um stay in the game and to trust God. Um people will elevate to the vision that people will elevate to the vision that people will elevate to the vision that you cast. So don't compromise your you cast. So don't compromise your you cast. So don't compromise your vision because you are overwhelmed by vision because you are overwhelmed by vision because you are overwhelmed by the size of it. People will elevate to the size of it. People will elevate to the size of it. People will elevate to your vision. something that Al Gordon your vision. something that Al Gordon your vision. something that Al Gordon said to me because he renovated Saint said to me because he renovated Saint said to me because he renovated Saint Church and uh which was a very similar Church and uh which was a very similar Church and uh which was a very similar project in London project in London project in London >> and he was just like yeah don't don't >> and he was just like yeah don't don't >> and he was just like yeah don't don't compromise the vision elevate the vision compromise the vision elevate the vision compromise the vision elevate the vision and that will attract people to make and that will attract people to make and that will attract people to make sacrif sacrificial investments sacrif sacrificial investments sacrif sacrificial investments >> one of your uh friends mutual friend >> one of your uh friends mutual friend >> one of your uh friends mutual friend Mark Batterson also done incredible Mark Batterson also done incredible Mark Batterson also done incredible things over 30 years now in DC and has things over 30 years now in DC and has things over 30 years now in DC and has reclaimed city blocks I mean you know a reclaimed city blocks I mean you know a reclaimed city blocks I mean you know a lot of people would just been, "Yeah, lot of people would just been, "Yeah, lot of people would just been, "Yeah, you can't build a church in DC. We're you can't build a church in DC. We're you can't build a church in DC. We're out." So now we've seen multiple out." So now we've seen multiple out." So now we've seen multiple churches doing it. What have you learned churches doing it. What have you learned churches doing it. What have you learned from Mark? from Mark? from Mark? >> Oh my gosh, Mark has been such a mentor >> Oh my gosh, Mark has been such a mentor >> Oh my gosh, Mark has been such a mentor and an inspiration to me. He um one of and an inspiration to me. He um one of and an inspiration to me. He um one of the things that we have a privilege of the things that we have a privilege of the things that we have a privilege of doing is uh bringing together a pastor's doing is uh bringing together a pastor's doing is uh bringing together a pastor's breakfast in DC. Uh pastor named uh breakfast in DC. Uh pastor named uh breakfast in DC. Uh pastor named uh pastor TL Rogers and Mark and myself and pastor TL Rogers and Mark and myself and pastor TL Rogers and Mark and myself and a couple other pastors uh have a a couple other pastors uh have a a couple other pastors uh have a pastor's breakfast quarterly. there's no pastor's breakfast quarterly. there's no pastor's breakfast quarterly. there's no agenda. Like nobody's allowed to come agenda. Like nobody's allowed to come agenda. Like nobody's allowed to come in. It's literally break bread, pray for in. It's literally break bread, pray for in. It's literally break bread, pray for one another, share our lives with one one another, share our lives with one one another, share our lives with one another. And so that's been just a another. And so that's been just a another. And so that's been just a really cool space. But there's such really cool space. But there's such really cool space. But there's such great unity among pastors in DC. And I great unity among pastors in DC. And I great unity among pastors in DC. And I think it's such a countercultural think it's such a countercultural think it's such a countercultural witness to a city that's so divided.

witness to a city that's so divided. witness to a city that's so divided. It's it's just beautiful. So um but but It's it's just beautiful. So um but but It's it's just beautiful. So um but but one of the things that that Mark has has one of the things that that Mark has has one of the things that that Mark has has taught me um he's taught me a lot about taught me um he's taught me a lot about taught me um he's taught me a lot about publishing journey, which we'll talk publishing journey, which we'll talk publishing journey, which we'll talk about in a bit. But in terms of like about in a bit. But in terms of like about in a bit. But in terms of like vision and reaching young people, one of vision and reaching young people, one of vision and reaching young people, one of the things he taught me a lot is just the things he taught me a lot is just the things he taught me a lot is just how to engage people very quickly in the how to engage people very quickly in the how to engage people very quickly in the life of the church because the the city life of the church because the the city life of the church because the the city is so transient with young people coming is so transient with young people coming is so transient with young people coming in. in. in. >> Yeah. You're you're turning over every 2 >> Yeah. You're you're turning over every 2 >> Yeah. You're you're turning over every 2 to four years like to four years like to four years like >> Absolutely. And so it's like it's not >> Absolutely. And so it's like it's not >> Absolutely. And so it's like it's not just young people, but it's also people just young people, but it's also people just young people, but it's also people who work in the State Department and who work in the State Department and who work in the State Department and international development. They're from international development. They're from international development. They're from other countries and so they're coming in other countries and so they're coming in other countries and so they're coming in and out constantly. We have a State and out constantly. We have a State and out constantly. We have a State Department family that's coming back for Department family that's coming back for Department family that's coming back for the fourth time in 16 years. Like the fourth time in 16 years. Like the fourth time in 16 years. Like they've just been in and out, in and they've just been in and out, in and they've just been in and out, in and out. And so, so you have to learn how to out. And so, so you have to learn how to out. And so, so you have to learn how to get people involved very quickly. And so get people involved very quickly. And so get people involved very quickly. And so even just like doing the the small group even just like doing the the small group even just like doing the the small group season based on semesters where people season based on semesters where people season based on semesters where people can join at any time, but really there's can join at any time, but really there's can join at any time, but really there's three times a year where you can really three times a year where you can really three times a year where you can really jump in and plug into the group where it jump in and plug into the group where it jump in and plug into the group where it feels like it's starting again, where feels like it's starting again, where feels like it's starting again, where you can have pathways for people to be you can have pathways for people to be you can have pathways for people to be able to start serving very quickly. Um, able to start serving very quickly. Um, able to start serving very quickly. Um, so I learned a lot of that from from so I learned a lot of that from from so I learned a lot of that from from Mark. Um, and then also obviously a lot Mark. Um, and then also obviously a lot Mark. Um, and then also obviously a lot about how to navigate property and you about how to navigate property and you about how to navigate property and you know what he did with Ebenezers with the know what he did with Ebenezers with the know what he did with Ebenezers with the coffee shop. We did a similar thing with coffee shop. We did a similar thing with coffee shop. We did a similar thing with the old ministry center. So one of this the old ministry center. So one of this the old ministry center. So one of this topic of of building. So our first topic of of building. So our first topic of of building. So our first property actually was a ministry house.

property actually was a ministry house. property actually was a ministry house. It was like a half a million dollar row It was like a half a million dollar row It was like a half a million dollar row house for our district fellows who are house for our district fellows who are house for our district fellows who are people called to do a year of service people called to do a year of service people called to do a year of service because they're discerning a call to because they're discerning a call to because they're discerning a call to ministry. And so we have a house for ministry. And so we have a house for ministry. And so we have a house for them. So that was the first thing. And them. So that was the first thing. And them. So that was the first thing. And then the second thing was uh we bought then the second thing was uh we bought then the second thing was uh we bought an old Catholic convent in right next to an old Catholic convent in right next to an old Catholic convent in right next to Catholic University 21 room 11b Catholic Catholic University 21 room 11b Catholic Catholic University 21 room 11b Catholic convent that we re renovated to be our convent that we re renovated to be our convent that we re renovated to be our offices and ministry center even though offices and ministry center even though offices and ministry center even though it's not our Sunday space. There's a 80 it's not our Sunday space. There's a 80 it's not our Sunday space. There's a 80 seat chapel in here but um that was a $7 seat chapel in here but um that was a $7 seat chapel in here but um that was a $7 million project between buying it and million project between buying it and million project between buying it and renovating it. But one of the things renovating it. But one of the things renovating it. But one of the things that Mark taught me was like you've got that Mark taught me was like you've got that Mark taught me was like you've got to get in the flow of real estate. like to get in the flow of real estate. like to get in the flow of real estate. like you have to like so even if you're just you have to like so even if you're just you have to like so even if you're just like buying a rowhouse or you're buying like buying a rowhouse or you're buying like buying a rowhouse or you're buying an office like get in the flow of real an office like get in the flow of real an office like get in the flow of real estate and I saw what what Tim Keller estate and I saw what what Tim Keller estate and I saw what what Tim Keller was doing um you know in in Manhattan was doing um you know in in Manhattan was doing um you know in in Manhattan and having one of the most influential and having one of the most influential and having one of the most influential churches biggest churches in Manhattan churches biggest churches in Manhattan churches biggest churches in Manhattan but didn't have a permanent space on the but didn't have a permanent space on the but didn't have a permanent space on the upper east side which is where his upper east side which is where his upper east side which is where his largest location was. He had to raise largest location was. He had to raise largest location was. He had to raise something like $60 million as he was something like $60 million as he was something like $60 million as he was retiring. I was like I don't want that retiring. I was like I don't want that retiring. I was like I don't want that to happen to [laughter] me. I want to to happen to [laughter] me. I want to to happen to [laughter] me. I want to start it earlier. And so, um, so yeah, start it earlier. And so, um, so yeah, start it earlier. And so, um, so yeah, that that's kind of he's taught me a that that's kind of he's taught me a that that's kind of he's taught me a lot, but a lot of it is how to navigate lot, but a lot of it is how to navigate lot, but a lot of it is how to navigate that. And as you get in the real estate that. And as you get in the real estate that. And as you get in the real estate game, then it makes it easier to be able game, then it makes it easier to be able game, then it makes it easier to be able to, um, acquire more properties, to be to, um, acquire more properties, to be to, um, acquire more properties, to be able to do more ministry. And so, um, so able to do more ministry. And so, um, so able to do more ministry. And so, um, so I've kind of been on the journey. This I've kind of been on the journey. This I've kind of been on the journey. This this this cathedral that we're this this cathedral that we're this this cathedral that we're renovating is is I got, uh, some

renovating is is I got, uh, some renovating is is I got, uh, some experience renovating buildings and experience renovating buildings and experience renovating buildings and dealing with contractors and architects dealing with contractors and architects dealing with contractors and architects and all that earlier as well. and all that earlier as well. and all that earlier as well. Uh speaking of being in DC, every pastor Uh speaking of being in DC, every pastor Uh speaking of being in DC, every pastor in America and around the world in America and around the world in America and around the world increasingly is dealing with division. increasingly is dealing with division. increasingly is dealing with division. We're seeing division. You you probably We're seeing division. You you probably We're seeing division. You you probably didn't see it 16 years ago when you didn't see it 16 years ago when you didn't see it 16 years ago when you started. It's intensified. I've talked started. It's intensified. I've talked started. It's intensified. I've talked to people on the hill. They're like, to people on the hill. They're like, to people on the hill. They're like, "Yeah, it's worse than it was 20 years "Yeah, it's worse than it was 20 years "Yeah, it's worse than it was 20 years ago. Definitely, this is not an ago. Definitely, this is not an ago. Definitely, this is not an illusion." And I think our algorithms illusion." And I think our algorithms illusion." And I think our algorithms have divided us more than they have have divided us more than they have have divided us more than they have because all of our feeds point in because all of our feeds point in because all of our feeds point in different directions. What are you different directions. What are you different directions. What are you learning about unifying people in learning about unifying people in learning about unifying people in probably the height of partisan divided probably the height of partisan divided probably the height of partisan divided America which is DC itself? America which is DC itself? America which is DC itself? >> Absolutely. Um love this subject is so >> Absolutely. Um love this subject is so >> Absolutely. Um love this subject is so important for us. You know being in DC important for us. You know being in DC important for us. You know being in DC everybody else's national international everybody else's national international everybody else's national international news is our local news. So Black Lives news is our local news. So Black Lives news is our local news. So Black Lives Matter Plaza which was like kind of the Matter Plaza which was like kind of the Matter Plaza which was like kind of the center of the protest in DC is on the center of the protest in DC is on the center of the protest in DC is on the same street our church meets at. January same street our church meets at. January same street our church meets at. January 6, it's like people in our church are 6, it's like people in our church are 6, it's like people in our church are actually at the capital then like so actually at the capital then like so actually at the capital then like so it's it feels local and personal to us it's it feels local and personal to us it's it feels local and personal to us if that makes sense.

if that makes sense. if that makes sense. >> Um but one of the things that I've >> Um but one of the things that I've >> Um but one of the things that I've learned is that it's really important as learned is that it's really important as learned is that it's really important as pastors to engage in the issues and talk pastors to engage in the issues and talk pastors to engage in the issues and talk about what's happening but you have to about what's happening but you have to about what's happening but you have to start talking about it when the start talking about it when the start talking about it when the temperature is lower. If you wait to temperature is lower. If you wait to temperature is lower. If you wait to talk about human sexuality and race and talk about human sexuality and race and talk about human sexuality and race and gender and abortion and caring for the gender and abortion and caring for the gender and abortion and caring for the poor, whatever thing is divisive at the poor, whatever thing is divisive at the poor, whatever thing is divisive at the time, if you wait until it's in the time, if you wait until it's in the time, if you wait until it's in the headlines of the news and whatever headlines of the news and whatever headlines of the news and whatever political party is using it to try to political party is using it to try to political party is using it to try to split people up, then you've already split people up, then you've already split people up, then you've already lost. And so this, you know, every lost. And so this, you know, every lost. And so this, you know, every summer, it's like June, all the Supreme summer, it's like June, all the Supreme summer, it's like June, all the Supreme Court cases come out and every pastor's Court cases come out and every pastor's Court cases come out and every pastor's like, "Oh my gosh, what do I need?" It's like, "Oh my gosh, what do I need?" It's like, "Oh my gosh, what do I need?" It's like, well, you know what they're going like, well, you know what they're going like, well, you know what they're going to be. you need to teach on them when to be. you need to teach on them when to be. you need to teach on them when the temperature is lower before before the temperature is lower before before the temperature is lower before before an election before a Supreme Court case an election before a Supreme Court case an election before a Supreme Court case comes out or something, you know, pops comes out or something, you know, pops comes out or something, you know, pops up in the news. And so for me, it's up in the news. And so for me, it's up in the news. And so for me, it's really convicting because I'm like, really convicting because I'm like, really convicting because I'm like, well, DC has the highest abortion rate well, DC has the highest abortion rate well, DC has the highest abortion rate in the country. It's not popular to talk in the country. It's not popular to talk in the country. It's not popular to talk about that, you know, in this city, but about that, you know, in this city, but about that, you know, in this city, but like how do I talk about it when the like how do I talk about it when the like how do I talk about it when the temperature is low? Because when the temperature is low? Because when the temperature is low? Because when the temperature is lower, people are temperature is lower, people are temperature is lower, people are actually teachable. But when people's actually teachable. But when people's actually teachable. But when people's emotions are high and they're, you know, emotions are high and they're, you know, emotions are high and they're, you know, everybody's coming into church having everybody's coming into church having everybody's coming into church having read the headlines of the news. So, you read the headlines of the news. So, you read the headlines of the news. So, you can't avoid that. And if you don't speak can't avoid that. And if you don't speak can't avoid that. And if you don't speak to it, you kind of sound tonedeaf, to it, you kind of sound tonedeaf, to it, you kind of sound tonedeaf, >> like you're like not in touch with what >> like you're like not in touch with what >> like you're like not in touch with what everybody's talking about at lunch or everybody's talking about at lunch or everybody's talking about at lunch or what everybody's posting about. So, you what everybody's posting about. So, you what everybody's posting about. So, you need to engage.

need to engage. need to engage. >> But how you engage is really important. >> But how you engage is really important. >> But how you engage is really important. And if you can talk about it when the And if you can talk about it when the And if you can talk about it when the temperature is lower, then you can help temperature is lower, then you can help temperature is lower, then you can help develop a theology around that and some develop a theology around that and some develop a theology around that and some common language that you can point back common language that you can point back common language that you can point back to when things do pop off and it's very to when things do pop off and it's very to when things do pop off and it's very divisive. And so, um, yeah. So, I've divisive. And so, um, yeah. So, I've divisive. And so, um, yeah. So, I've been on the front lines of this. Got been on the front lines of this. Got been on the front lines of this. Got lots of stories I could share about it. lots of stories I could share about it. lots of stories I could share about it. >> Do you would you say your congregation >> Do you would you say your congregation >> Do you would you say your congregation is bipartisan? is bipartisan? is bipartisan? >> Yes. However, DC is 95% Democrat. >> Yes. However, DC is 95% Democrat. >> Yes. However, DC is 95% Democrat. So in the last five elections, 95% of DC So in the last five elections, 95% of DC So in the last five elections, 95% of DC residents vote voted for the Democratic residents vote voted for the Democratic residents vote voted for the Democratic candidate. So just to give an example of candidate. So just to give an example of candidate. So just to give an example of this like polarization, Vice President this like polarization, Vice President this like polarization, Vice President Pence when he was vice president under Pence when he was vice president under Pence when he was vice president under Trump's first term started coming to Trump's first term started coming to Trump's first term started coming to worship at our church cuz we're right up worship at our church cuz we're right up worship at our church cuz we're right up the street from where he lives, you the street from where he lives, you the street from where he lives, you know, found us through friends, other know, found us through friends, other know, found us through friends, other people that work at the White House. So people that work at the White House. So people that work at the White House. So he comes and worships with us. 13c he comes and worships with us. 13c he comes and worships with us. 13c caravan, secret service, everybody caravan, secret service, everybody caravan, secret service, everybody getting wanded. You can imagine in a getting wanded. You can imagine in a getting wanded. You can imagine in a church in DC church in DC church in DC that there was some emotions going on in that there was some emotions going on in that there was some emotions going on in our congregation, you know, being our congregation, you know, being our congregation, you know, being uncomfortable um about this even though uncomfortable um about this even though uncomfortable um about this even though he was sitting in the back totally low he was sitting in the back totally low he was sitting in the back totally low profile, not wanting to draw any profile, not wanting to draw any profile, not wanting to draw any attention. And um I remember getting I attention. And um I remember getting I attention. And um I remember getting I write about this in my in my new book, write about this in my in my new book, write about this in my in my new book, but I I I remember getting an email from but I I I remember getting an email from but I I I remember getting an email from somebody in the church fired up like somebody in the church fired up like somebody in the church fired up like this is so distracting. I can't focus on this is so distracting. I can't focus on this is so distracting. I can't focus on worship. like I don't align with the worship. like I don't align with the worship. like I don't align with the policies of this administration. I can't policies of this administration. I can't policies of this administration. I can't listen to the sermon, you know, blah listen to the sermon, you know, blah listen to the sermon, you know, blah blah blah. And I respond pastorally blah blah. And I respond pastorally blah blah. And I respond pastorally like, "Hey, we want to be aospitable

like, "Hey, we want to be aospitable like, "Hey, we want to be aospitable place for all." You know, I was trying place for all." You know, I was trying place for all." You know, I was trying to help keep her connected. Well, 3 to help keep her connected. Well, 3 to help keep her connected. Well, 3 weeks later, she sends me an email and weeks later, she sends me an email and weeks later, she sends me an email and she says, "I was in the communion line she says, "I was in the communion line she says, "I was in the communion line behind Vice President Pence last week." behind Vice President Pence last week." behind Vice President Pence last week." And right before I took communion, the And right before I took communion, the And right before I took communion, the Holy Spirit came on me and revealed to Holy Spirit came on me and revealed to Holy Spirit came on me and revealed to me that he's a child of God just like me that he's a child of God just like me that he's a child of God just like I'm a child of God. And then she said, I'm a child of God. And then she said, I'm a child of God. And then she said, "Thank you for creating a hospitable "Thank you for creating a hospitable "Thank you for creating a hospitable place where we can all worship place where we can all worship place where we can all worship together." And I think that's what we're together." And I think that's what we're together." And I think that's what we're called to do as pastors is to be able to called to do as pastors is to be able to called to do as pastors is to be able to bring people together. Because if Jesus bring people together. Because if Jesus bring people together. Because if Jesus really is greater than our politics, really is greater than our politics, really is greater than our politics, then he should be able to bring us then he should be able to bring us then he should be able to bring us together just like the early church, together just like the early church, together just like the early church, Jews and Gentiles coming together Jews and Gentiles coming together Jews and Gentiles coming together because Jesus is Lord. And it doesn't because Jesus is Lord. And it doesn't because Jesus is Lord. And it doesn't mean our politics don't matter. It mean our politics don't matter. It mean our politics don't matter. It doesn't mean the issues don't matter. It doesn't mean the issues don't matter. It doesn't mean the issues don't matter. It doesn't mean you water down your doesn't mean you water down your doesn't mean you water down your convictions. But it does mean that Jesus convictions. But it does mean that Jesus convictions. But it does mean that Jesus should be greater than those divisions. should be greater than those divisions. should be greater than those divisions. And that's what I long for, you know, in And that's what I long for, you know, in And that's what I long for, you know, in the church in America is that we can be the church in America is that we can be the church in America is that we can be more united without watering down our more united without watering down our more united without watering down our convictions.

convictions. convictions. >> How um >> How um >> How um how have the culture wars or I guess how how have the culture wars or I guess how how have the culture wars or I guess how else have the culture wars impacted your else have the culture wars impacted your else have the culture wars impacted your church? church? church? >> Yeah. Well, you know, it's so in DC, um >> Yeah. Well, you know, it's so in DC, um >> Yeah. Well, you know, it's so in DC, um the drift, it's a very progressive city the drift, it's a very progressive city the drift, it's a very progressive city like I meant and that's politically, but like I meant and that's politically, but like I meant and that's politically, but it can also become progressive it can also become progressive it can also become progressive theologically. theologically. theologically. And um what I've noticed for me is that And um what I've noticed for me is that And um what I've noticed for me is that if if you do nothing as a pastor or as a if if you do nothing as a pastor or as a if if you do nothing as a pastor or as a church, people in your congregation will church, people in your congregation will church, people in your congregation will drift left theologically. And and what I drift left theologically. And and what I drift left theologically. And and what I mean by that is, you know, um I define a mean by that is, you know, um I define a mean by that is, you know, um I define a progressive Christian as someone who progressive Christian as someone who progressive Christian as someone who reinterprets the historic teachings of reinterprets the historic teachings of reinterprets the historic teachings of the church in the Bible and reinterprets the church in the Bible and reinterprets the church in the Bible and reinterprets them to make it more acceptable to them to make it more acceptable to them to make it more acceptable to modern culture. It's been h it's not modern culture. It's been h it's not modern culture. It's been h it's not nothing new. It's been [laughter] nothing new. It's been [laughter] nothing new. It's been [laughter] happening for 400 years in the happening for 400 years in the happening for 400 years in the enlightenment. Um it's been happening enlightenment. Um it's been happening enlightenment. Um it's been happening since the garden, you know, with the since the garden, you know, with the since the garden, you know, with the devil saying, you know, did God really devil saying, you know, did God really devil saying, you know, did God really say that? We need to reinterpret it. You say that? We need to reinterpret it. You say that? We need to reinterpret it. You know, it's like mixing truth with lies. know, it's like mixing truth with lies. know, it's like mixing truth with lies. And so what will happen And so what will happen And so what will happen >> in a context like I'm in in DC >> in a context like I'm in in DC >> in a context like I'm in in DC >> is that somebody will take a value like >> is that somebody will take a value like >> is that somebody will take a value like love and inclusion, which is a great love and inclusion, which is a great love and inclusion, which is a great value. Like it's a biblical value. Like value. Like it's a biblical value. Like value. Like it's a biblical value. Like God so loved the world. The gospel is God so loved the world. The gospel is God so loved the world. The gospel is the most inclusive message ever preached the most inclusive message ever preached the most inclusive message ever preached that anyone who repents and puts their that anyone who repents and puts their that anyone who repents and puts their faith in Jesus can be saved. Like it faith in Jesus can be saved. Like it faith in Jesus can be saved. Like it doesn't get any more inclusive than doesn't get any more inclusive than doesn't get any more inclusive than that. But what a progressive Christian that. But what a progressive Christian that. But what a progressive Christian will do is take a secular definition of will do is take a secular definition of will do is take a secular definition of love and inclusion. And then it will love and inclusion. And then it will love and inclusion. And then it will take that value and make it the most

take that value and make it the most take that value and make it the most dominant value in all of scripture and dominant value in all of scripture and dominant value in all of scripture and then reinterpret everything in light of then reinterpret everything in light of then reinterpret everything in light of a a secular version of inclusion or a a secular version of inclusion or a a secular version of inclusion or tolerance. And so human depravity, tolerance. And so human depravity, tolerance. And so human depravity, the atonement of Christ, the bodily the atonement of Christ, the bodily the atonement of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the exclusivity resurrection of Christ, the exclusivity resurrection of Christ, the exclusivity of Christ, the judgment of Christ, like of Christ, the judgment of Christ, like of Christ, the judgment of Christ, like all of those things get watered down or all of those things get watered down or all of those things get watered down or eliminated. And so one of the things eliminated. And so one of the things eliminated. And so one of the things that I'm focused on right now is trying that I'm focused on right now is trying that I'm focused on right now is trying to go upstream from the culture wars to to go upstream from the culture wars to to go upstream from the culture wars to talk about what's happening talk about what's happening talk about what's happening theologically theologically theologically and how many Christians are being led and how many Christians are being led and how many Christians are being led astray by good sounding lies that are astray by good sounding lies that are astray by good sounding lies that are actually rooted more in a secular actually rooted more in a secular actually rooted more in a secular culture than they are in scripture. And culture than they are in scripture. And culture than they are in scripture. And so that's that's what I'm up against so that's that's what I'm up against so that's that's what I'm up against here. I think every pastor's in a here. I think every pastor's in a here. I think every pastor's in a different context, but maybe you could different context, but maybe you could different context, but maybe you could relate being in Canada. relate being in Canada. relate being in Canada. >> Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And I >> Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And I >> Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And I I Let's Let's talk about that because I Let's Let's talk about that because I Let's Let's talk about that because you identify a number of issues. I'm you identify a number of issues. I'm you identify a number of issues. I'm going to play uh pick your favorite going to play uh pick your favorite going to play uh pick your favorite because you outline a bunch, but pick because you outline a bunch, but pick because you outline a bunch, but pick pick an issue because I think yeah, pick an issue because I think yeah, pick an issue because I think yeah, you're in DC, but wherever you are in you're in DC, but wherever you are in you're in DC, but wherever you are in the Western world, and I can't speak for the Western world, and I can't speak for the Western world, and I can't speak for beyond the Western world, but wherever beyond the Western world, but wherever beyond the Western world, but wherever you are in the Western world, you're you are in the Western world, you're you are in the Western world, you're probably dealing with some variation of probably dealing with some variation of probably dealing with some variation of what you're dealing with in DC. And if what you're dealing with in DC. And if what you're dealing with in DC. And if you're in a super conservative red area, you're in a super conservative red area, you're in a super conservative red area, you know, not a blue area, um, you've you know, not a blue area, um, you've you know, not a blue area, um, you've got culture shaping theology in a whole got culture shaping theology in a whole got culture shaping theology in a whole other direction, right? So, um, what

other direction, right? So, um, what other direction, right? So, um, what what's one of the lies that you think we what's one of the lies that you think we what's one of the lies that you think we really need to attack right now? Then we really need to attack right now? Then we really need to attack right now? Then we can go down a partial list. can go down a partial list. can go down a partial list. >> Yeah. Well, there there's there's so >> Yeah. Well, there there's there's so >> Yeah. Well, there there's there's so many I could talk about. One is the many I could talk about. One is the many I could talk about. One is the Bible's outdated. Another one is that Bible's outdated. Another one is that Bible's outdated. Another one is that the church is optional. So maybe we can the church is optional. So maybe we can the church is optional. So maybe we can just go into the church as optional just go into the church as optional just go into the church as optional since we're speaking pastors or church since we're speaking pastors or church since we're speaking pastors or church leaders, leaders, leaders, >> but you know, the the church being being >> but you know, the the church being being >> but you know, the the church being being optional is is really uh there's a optional is is really uh there's a optional is is really uh there's a there's a quote I use um in the book there's a quote I use um in the book there's a quote I use um in the book that's from um CS Lewis and it says this that's from um CS Lewis and it says this that's from um CS Lewis and it says this from screw tape letters. So you know the from screw tape letters. So you know the from screw tape letters. So you know the screw tape is the devil right into the screw tape is the devil right into the screw tape is the devil right into the hell of a wormwood. hell of a wormwood. hell of a wormwood. >> Great book. >> Great book. >> Great book. >> Uh huge inspiration for for for me in my >> Uh huge inspiration for for for me in my >> Uh huge inspiration for for for me in my book. But he he he says the screw tape book. But he he he says the screw tape book. But he he he says the screw tape says, "Surely you know that if a man says, "Surely you know that if a man says, "Surely you know that if a man can't be cured of churchgoing, in other can't be cured of churchgoing, in other can't be cured of churchgoing, in other words, you can't keep him out of the words, you can't keep him out of the words, you can't keep him out of the church. The next best thing is to send church. The next best thing is to send church. The next best thing is to send him all over the neighborhood looking him all over the neighborhood looking him all over the neighborhood looking for the church that quote suits him for the church that quote suits him for the church that quote suits him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur until he becomes a taster or connoisseur until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches." He says, "The search for a of churches." He says, "The search for a of churches." He says, "The search for a suitable church makes the man a critic suitable church makes the man a critic suitable church makes the man a critic where the enemy, God, wants him to be a where the enemy, God, wants him to be a where the enemy, God, wants him to be a pupil." And so the lie is that church is pupil." And so the lie is that church is pupil." And so the lie is that church is optional. And so if I believe the lie optional. And so if I believe the lie optional. And so if I believe the lie that church is optional, then I can that church is optional, then I can that church is optional, then I can become a church shopper who looks for become a church shopper who looks for become a church shopper who looks for the perfect church, which is so easy to the perfect church, which is so easy to the perfect church, which is so easy to do in a city like DC where there's a lot do in a city like DC where there's a lot do in a city like DC where there's a lot of transients. So people are like, you of transients. So people are like, you of transients. So people are like, you know, moving all the time and it's easy know, moving all the time and it's easy know, moving all the time and it's easy to become like a journalist or soc like to become like a journalist or soc like to become like a journalist or soc like approach church like a journalist or a approach church like a journalist or a approach church like a journalist or a sociologist, sociologist, sociologist, which is dangerous. That's what that's which is dangerous. That's what that's which is dangerous. That's what that's what screw tape. It's like it's

what screw tape. It's like it's what screw tape. It's like it's dangerous to turn into a critic rather dangerous to turn into a critic rather dangerous to turn into a critic rather than a pupil. To be a critic of churches than a pupil. To be a critic of churches than a pupil. To be a critic of churches rather than a disciple, a learner. And rather than a disciple, a learner. And rather than a disciple, a learner. And so that's one of the things I've so that's one of the things I've so that's one of the things I've unpacked cuz it's true that yeah, you unpacked cuz it's true that yeah, you unpacked cuz it's true that yeah, you can come into relationship with Jesus can come into relationship with Jesus can come into relationship with Jesus apart from the church. Like you don't apart from the church. Like you don't apart from the church. Like you don't have to step into a church building to have to step into a church building to have to step into a church building to become a Christian, but God never become a Christian, but God never become a Christian, but God never designed us to grow apart from the local designed us to grow apart from the local designed us to grow apart from the local church. And so that's one of those church. And so that's one of those church. And so that's one of those secular lives that I see affecting a lot secular lives that I see affecting a lot secular lives that I see affecting a lot of of people today. And we saw that of of people today. And we saw that of of people today. And we saw that coming back from CO where a lot of coming back from CO where a lot of coming back from CO where a lot of people just drifted not out of people just drifted not out of people just drifted not out of theological difference or or because of theological difference or or because of theological difference or or because of church hurt or whatever, but just church hurt or whatever, but just church hurt or whatever, but just because of convenience. They just kind because of convenience. They just kind because of convenience. They just kind of drifted and they got out of the of drifted and they got out of the of drifted and they got out of the rhythm and routine. rhythm and routine. rhythm and routine. >> Pick some other lies, too. I've got a >> Pick some other lies, too. I've got a >> Pick some other lies, too. I've got a list here, but I'd love I'd love to see list here, but I'd love I'd love to see list here, but I'd love I'd love to see what is I I want to make sure we get to what is I I want to make sure we get to what is I I want to make sure we get to cancel culture, but cancel culture, but cancel culture, but >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, one of the >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, one of the >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, one of the other one I mentioned was um the lie other one I mentioned was um the lie other one I mentioned was um the lie that the Bible is outdated. that the Bible is outdated. that the Bible is outdated. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> needs editing. Yeah. >> needs editing. Yeah. >> needs editing. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that it needs editing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that it needs editing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that it needs editing. And so um you know I tell the story And so um you know I tell the story And so um you know I tell the story about um Jim Wallace who uh started a about um Jim Wallace who uh started a about um Jim Wallace who uh started a ministry called Sojourers. But when he ministry called Sojourers. But when he ministry called Sojourers. But when he was in the 70s when he went to um was in the 70s when he went to um was in the 70s when he went to um Trinity Seminary, he cut out every Trinity Seminary, he cut out every Trinity Seminary, he cut out every reference in the Bible that referenced reference in the Bible that referenced reference in the Bible that referenced God's heart for the poor, the oppressed, God's heart for the poor, the oppressed, God's heart for the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the stranger. And the widow, the orphan, the stranger. And the widow, the orphan, the stranger. And there was like 2,000 verses in the there was like 2,000 verses in the there was like 2,000 verses in the Bible, you know, that reference God's Bible, you know, that reference God's Bible, you know, that reference God's heart for the poor and other things. And heart for the poor and other things. And heart for the poor and other things. And he the Bible was in shreds. And he went he the Bible was in shreds. And he went he the Bible was in shreds. And he went around and he preached. He said, "This around and he preached. He said, "This around and he preached. He said, "This is what we have in America. It's a Bible is what we have in America. It's a Bible is what we have in America. It's a Bible full of shred, you know, it's a Bible full of shred, you know, it's a Bible full of shred, you know, it's a Bible full of holes. And um it was a prophetic

full of holes. And um it was a prophetic full of holes. And um it was a prophetic call in the 70s and 80s where a lot of call in the 70s and 80s where a lot of call in the 70s and 80s where a lot of churches didn't really have compassion, churches didn't really have compassion, churches didn't really have compassion, mercy ministries, caring for the poor, mercy ministries, caring for the poor, mercy ministries, caring for the poor, understanding that sin can exist even at understanding that sin can exist even at understanding that sin can exist even at a systemic level. But what I found a systemic level. But what I found a systemic level. But what I found today, at least in my context, and a lot today, at least in my context, and a lot today, at least in my context, and a lot a lot of young Christians and pastors I a lot of young Christians and pastors I a lot of young Christians and pastors I know, is that we're all talking about know, is that we're all talking about know, is that we're all talking about justice and care for the poor, but a lot justice and care for the poor, but a lot justice and care for the poor, but a lot of pastors don't have courage to talk of pastors don't have courage to talk of pastors don't have courage to talk about some of the controversial issues about some of the controversial issues about some of the controversial issues like gender and sexuality and other like gender and sexuality and other like gender and sexuality and other things. And so we kind of selectively things. And so we kind of selectively things. And so we kind of selectively cut those things out and don't emphasize cut those things out and don't emphasize cut those things out and don't emphasize the whole council of God. And so really, the whole council of God. And so really, the whole council of God. And so really, I think the call is what we're all I think the call is what we're all I think the call is what we're all calling called to do as pastors is calling called to do as pastors is calling called to do as pastors is calling people to be engaged in calling people to be engaged in calling people to be engaged in scripture, to read all of scripture, to scripture, to read all of scripture, to scripture, to read all of scripture, to not selectively pick and choose which not selectively pick and choose which not selectively pick and choose which parts we want to believe. Um, so yeah, parts we want to believe. Um, so yeah, parts we want to believe. Um, so yeah, that that's that's one of that's the that that's that's one of that's the that that's that's one of that's the fourth lie that I talk about. fourth lie that I talk about. fourth lie that I talk about. So, I love your idea of talking about So, I love your idea of talking about So, I love your idea of talking about these things when Oh, let me let me back these things when Oh, let me let me back these things when Oh, let me let me back up a little bit. Let's get to um up a little bit. Let's get to um up a little bit. Let's get to um we talked about editing the Bible, but we talked about editing the Bible, but we talked about editing the Bible, but armchair activism. Yeah, armchair activism. Yeah, armchair activism. Yeah, >> it's another problem in progressive >> it's another problem in progressive >> it's another problem in progressive circles and to some extent in circles and to some extent in circles and to some extent in conservative circles, right? It's just conservative circles, right? It's just conservative circles, right? It's just like I'm going to go rant on social like I'm going to go rant on social like I'm going to go rant on social media. There I did my piece.

media. There I did my piece. media. There I did my piece. >> Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, an armchair >> Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, an armchair >> Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, an armchair activist is someone who expresses activist is someone who expresses activist is someone who expresses opinions on social or political issues opinions on social or political issues opinions on social or political issues but takes little to no tangible action, but takes little to no tangible action, but takes little to no tangible action, you know, beyond something they do you know, beyond something they do you know, beyond something they do online. online. online. >> But I'm raising awareness, Erin. I'm >> But I'm raising awareness, Erin. I'm >> But I'm raising awareness, Erin. I'm raising awareness. raising awareness. raising awareness. >> Raising awareness. Exactly. >> Raising awareness. Exactly. >> Raising awareness. Exactly. >> Um, which might be fine if you're >> Um, which might be fine if you're >> Um, which might be fine if you're working on a political campaign, but if working on a political campaign, but if working on a political campaign, but if if you're a Christian, we're called to a if you're a Christian, we're called to a if you're a Christian, we're called to a deeper level of engagement. Um, I often deeper level of engagement. Um, I often deeper level of engagement. Um, I often say that, you know, politics is focused say that, you know, politics is focused say that, you know, politics is focused on outer agitation, on outer agitation, on outer agitation, but our Christian life is focused on but our Christian life is focused on but our Christian life is focused on inner formation. And that's that's what inner formation. And that's that's what inner formation. And that's that's what we're called to in as as church leaders, we're called to in as as church leaders, we're called to in as as church leaders, as pastors, as Christians, is the as pastors, as Christians, is the as pastors, as Christians, is the formation business. And so the the the formation business. And so the the the formation business. And so the the the lie is that we can change the world with lie is that we can change the world with lie is that we can change the world with our spare change in our spare time. And our spare change in our spare time. And our spare change in our spare time. And so this this leads to so this this leads to so this this leads to this armchair activism where biblical this armchair activism where biblical this armchair activism where biblical terms like justice, which is a biblical terms like justice, which is a biblical terms like justice, which is a biblical term, I'm on a mission to take back that term, I'm on a mission to take back that term, I'm on a mission to take back that term because it's been hijacked by the term because it's been hijacked by the term because it's been hijacked by the left into something it's not. And it's left into something it's not. And it's left into something it's not. And it's been dismissed by the right. You get been dismissed by the right. You get been dismissed by the right. You get labeled as woke or something like that.

labeled as woke or something like that. labeled as woke or something like that. But it's it's a biblical term. It's like But it's it's a biblical term. It's like But it's it's a biblical term. It's like Jesus defi when he Jesus prayed in the Jesus defi when he Jesus prayed in the Jesus defi when he Jesus prayed in the Lord's prayer, your kingdom come, your Lord's prayer, your kingdom come, your Lord's prayer, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in will be done on earth as it is in will be done on earth as it is in heaven. heaven. heaven. And it's rooted in love. And God's And it's rooted in love. And God's And it's rooted in love. And God's definition of love is rooted in definition of love is rooted in definition of love is rooted in sacrifice. That God sent his one and sacrifice. That God sent his one and sacrifice. That God sent his one and only son into this world. He gave his only son into this world. He gave his only son into this world. He gave his life for us. And so as we engage in life for us. And so as we engage in life for us. And so as we engage in caring for human suffering, responding caring for human suffering, responding caring for human suffering, responding to the needs in our community, we should to the needs in our community, we should to the needs in our community, we should be the most sacrificial people on this be the most sacrificial people on this be the most sacrificial people on this planet as Christians. And the church has planet as Christians. And the church has planet as Christians. And the church has been historically. And so what what been historically. And so what what been historically. And so what what happens now the western world the happens now the western world the happens now the western world the progressive western world now sees the progressive western world now sees the progressive western world now sees the fruit of biblical Christianity and and fruit of biblical Christianity and and fruit of biblical Christianity and and how much how many people are mobilized how much how many people are mobilized how much how many people are mobilized how many dollars are given you know and how many dollars are given you know and how many dollars are given you know and they say we want that and they the west they say we want that and they the west they say we want that and they the west wants the fruit of Christianity but not wants the fruit of Christianity but not wants the fruit of Christianity but not the root of it and and the root of it is the root of it and and the root of it is the root of it and and the root of it is rooted in scripture and so I think rooted in scripture and so I think rooted in scripture and so I think that's where we have to say you know that's where we have to say you know that's where we have to say you know what like we can't settle for these what like we can't settle for these what like we can't settle for these versions of engagement versions of engagement versions of engagement that are so shortterm that are like that are so shortterm that are like that are so shortterm that are like charity only that allow us to go back to charity only that allow us to go back to charity only that allow us to go back to our comfortable lifestyle than rather our comfortable lifestyle than rather our comfortable lifestyle than rather than living out the costly call to than living out the costly call to than living out the costly call to disciplehip.

disciplehip. disciplehip. >> H let's talk about cancel culture. I >> H let's talk about cancel culture. I >> H let's talk about cancel culture. I mean it is interesting. You've lived mean it is interesting. You've lived mean it is interesting. You've lived through the end of the Obama through the end of the Obama through the end of the Obama administration second term Trump one, administration second term Trump one, administration second term Trump one, Biden, Trump 2. You've seen a lot of Biden, Trump 2. You've seen a lot of Biden, Trump 2. You've seen a lot of flip-flops and particularly from the flip-flops and particularly from the flip-flops and particularly from the woke era to the anti-woke era. woke era to the anti-woke era. woke era to the anti-woke era. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What are your thoughts on cancel >> What are your thoughts on cancel >> What are your thoughts on cancel culture? culture? culture? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's a >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's a >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's a problem. I think there was a healthy problem. I think there was a healthy problem. I think there was a healthy side of it initially that was like, hey, side of it initially that was like, hey, side of it initially that was like, hey, you know, when a leader falls, like you know, when a leader falls, like you know, when a leader falls, like leaders are called to high standards and leaders are called to high standards and leaders are called to high standards and if a leader sins or abuses people, they if a leader sins or abuses people, they if a leader sins or abuses people, they should be held accountable to to that should be held accountable to to that should be held accountable to to that and they shouldn't just get a pass and they shouldn't just get a pass and they shouldn't just get a pass because they have money or more power. because they have money or more power. because they have money or more power. So, there's there's a So, there's there's a So, there's there's a That's [laughter] That's [laughter] That's [laughter] yeah, there's a part of it that's that's yeah, there's a part of it that's that's yeah, there's a part of it that's that's that's healthy, but I think it's gone that's healthy, but I think it's gone that's healthy, but I think it's gone too far. And I, you know, I remember too far. And I, you know, I remember too far. And I, you know, I remember very vividly when um Louis Giglio was very vividly when um Louis Giglio was very vividly when um Louis Giglio was invited to do the inaugural prayer at um invited to do the inaugural prayer at um invited to do the inaugural prayer at um Obama's Obama's Obama's inauguration and it was a big deal like inauguration and it was a big deal like inauguration and it was a big deal like to be asked to pray and he got to be asked to pray and he got to be asked to pray and he got disinvited because of an old sermon disinvited because of an old sermon disinvited because of an old sermon where he had a conservative view on on where he had a conservative view on on where he had a conservative view on on marriage. That's cancel culture right marriage. That's cancel culture right marriage. That's cancel culture right there. like that's allowing the left to there. like that's allowing the left to there. like that's allowing the left to cancel all the work he was doing on cancel all the work he was doing on cancel all the work he was doing on human trafficking that led to that human trafficking that led to that human trafficking that led to that invitation as well. And so um so I think invitation as well. And so um so I think invitation as well. And so um so I think that as Christians, Jesus being our that as Christians, Jesus being our that as Christians, Jesus being our example and our savior, he taught us to example and our savior, he taught us to example and our savior, he taught us to love our enemies, to forgive people. And love our enemies, to forgive people. And love our enemies, to forgive people. And so I think our ability to maintain

so I think our ability to maintain so I think our ability to maintain relationship across difference without relationship across difference without relationship across difference without compromising our convictions, but to compromising our convictions, but to compromising our convictions, but to maintain relationship is an increasingly maintain relationship is an increasingly maintain relationship is an increasingly important skill in a polarized culture important skill in a polarized culture important skill in a polarized culture today. And I think a lot of pastors are today. And I think a lot of pastors are today. And I think a lot of pastors are taking their playbook from secular taking their playbook from secular taking their playbook from secular culture rather than from the Bible. Um culture rather than from the Bible. Um culture rather than from the Bible. Um Saul Alinski uh wrote Rules for Saul Alinski uh wrote Rules for Saul Alinski uh wrote Rules for Radicals. Um he was one of the community Radicals. Um he was one of the community Radicals. Um he was one of the community organizers from Chicago. Um, and it's organizers from Chicago. Um, and it's organizers from Chicago. Um, and it's it's ultimately a secular book, but one it's ultimately a secular book, but one it's ultimately a secular book, but one of the things he says in there is you of the things he says in there is you of the things he says in there is you must polarize to mobilize. must polarize to mobilize. must polarize to mobilize. And I think that's what the church is And I think that's what the church is And I think that's what the church is doing a lot today where we're stoking doing a lot today where we're stoking doing a lot today where we're stoking outrage to be able to get clicks. And outrage to be able to get clicks. And outrage to be able to get clicks. And and I think that God calls us Yeah. God and I think that God calls us Yeah. God and I think that God calls us Yeah. God calls us to be engaged and to speak the calls us to be engaged and to speak the calls us to be engaged and to speak the truth, but I think we have to be careful truth, but I think we have to be careful truth, but I think we have to be careful that we don't turn into divisive that we don't turn into divisive that we don't turn into divisive influencers as we play into this cancel influencers as we play into this cancel influencers as we play into this cancel culture. So what does it look like to culture. So what does it look like to culture. So what does it look like to love our enemies? What does it mean to love our enemies? What does it mean to love our enemies? What does it mean to to to pray for those who persecute us to to to pray for those who persecute us to to to pray for those who persecute us to maintain relationship across difference?

maintain relationship across difference? maintain relationship across difference? And increasingly that's not like some And increasingly that's not like some And increasingly that's not like some world leader halfway across the world. world leader halfway across the world. world leader halfway across the world. That's like somebody in our family. It's That's like somebody in our family. It's That's like somebody in our family. It's somebody in our life group. It's somebody in our life group. It's somebody in our life group. It's somebody in our church. How how do we somebody in our church. How how do we somebody in our church. How how do we maintain relationship? That's a maintain relationship? That's a maintain relationship? That's a important skill I think for us. important skill I think for us. important skill I think for us. >> So that is >> So that is >> So that is one of the church growth strategies. one of the church growth strategies. one of the church growth strategies. that's in vogue in certain circles right that's in vogue in certain circles right that's in vogue in certain circles right now. I'm going to polarize people to now. I'm going to polarize people to now. I'm going to polarize people to mobilize people. I'm going to say mobilize people. I'm going to say mobilize people. I'm going to say slightly exaggerated things often right slightly exaggerated things often right slightly exaggerated things often right now in the cultural moment we're in on now in the cultural moment we're in on now in the cultural moment we're in on the right that are going to get people the right that are going to get people the right that are going to get people mad. They're going to get them upset. mad. They're going to get them upset. mad. They're going to get them upset. It's going to get them into church. And It's going to get them into church. And It's going to get them into church. And it's a great growth strategy if if you it's a great growth strategy if if you it's a great growth strategy if if you want to look at the short term and just want to look at the short term and just want to look at the short term and just the numbers or the impact. Yeah, you the numbers or the impact. Yeah, you the numbers or the impact. Yeah, you will grow your church. What's a shadow will grow your church. What's a shadow will grow your church. What's a shadow side of that? What happens when you side of that? What happens when you side of that? What happens when you polarize to mobilize? polarize to mobilize? polarize to mobilize? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Gen Z right >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Gen Z right >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Gen Z right now is so tired of the seeker sensitive now is so tired of the seeker sensitive now is so tired of the seeker sensitive model of pastors who are just so nuanced model of pastors who are just so nuanced model of pastors who are just so nuanced with what they're saying that they won't with what they're saying that they won't with what they're saying that they won't lead with the truth even if it's hard.

lead with the truth even if it's hard. lead with the truth even if it's hard. And so, I think there's a demand right And so, I think there's a demand right And so, I think there's a demand right now for voices that are more courageous now for voices that are more courageous now for voices that are more courageous in the public square, specifically in the public square, specifically in the public square, specifically Christians. So, I think we should be Christians. So, I think we should be Christians. So, I think we should be engaged. But the the issue that I see engaged. But the the issue that I see engaged. But the the issue that I see today is when we allow partisan today is when we allow partisan today is when we allow partisan politics, electoral politics to be able politics, electoral politics to be able politics, electoral politics to be able to stoke the outrage and where we to stoke the outrage and where we to stoke the outrage and where we consider somebody is like, oh, you can't consider somebody is like, oh, you can't consider somebody is like, oh, you can't be a Christian if you vote this way or be a Christian if you vote this way or be a Christian if you vote this way or something like that. It's like, well, something like that. It's like, well, something like that. It's like, well, when did either political party, you when did either political party, you when did either political party, you know, become the kingdom of God agenda? know, become the kingdom of God agenda? know, become the kingdom of God agenda? It's like both of them kind of suck. The It's like both of them kind of suck. The It's like both of them kind of suck. The issue is like what's what's the the issue is like what's what's the the issue is like what's what's the the question is what's the issue? And yeah, question is what's the issue? And yeah, question is what's the issue? And yeah, certain seasons, certain parties are certain seasons, certain parties are certain seasons, certain parties are definitely closer, you know, for for definitely closer, you know, for for definitely closer, you know, for for sure. But I think what happens is we sure. But I think what happens is we sure. But I think what happens is we it's it's very easy to create an us it's it's very easy to create an us it's it's very easy to create an us versus them category. And if you can versus them category. And if you can versus them category. And if you can create create create that like demon on one side, then you that like demon on one side, then you that like demon on one side, then you can just kind of quickly dismiss them. can just kind of quickly dismiss them. can just kind of quickly dismiss them. And I think, you know, one of the one of And I think, you know, one of the one of And I think, you know, one of the one of the gifts once again of having a diverse the gifts once again of having a diverse the gifts once again of having a diverse church is like people from all over the church is like people from all over the church is like people from all over the world come and see what's going on in world come and see what's going on in world come and see what's going on in our church. And we I mean not in our our church. And we I mean not in our our church. And we I mean not in our church but in our nation and they just church but in our nation and they just church but in our nation and they just see it's like the same playbook that's see it's like the same playbook that's see it's like the same playbook that's been happening in their nation back been happening in their nation back been happening in their nation back home. They're like this is the exact home. They're like this is the exact home. They're like this is the exact same thing that happens. It's like not same thing that happens. It's like not same thing that happens. It's like not about just a single leader. It's about about just a single leader. It's about about just a single leader. It's about like a culture and it's about a human like a culture and it's about a human like a culture and it's about a human depravity that's gone astray that that depravity that's gone astray that that depravity that's gone astray that that stokes on division that gets votes but stokes on division that gets votes but stokes on division that gets votes but ultimately doesn't deliver for the ultimately doesn't deliver for the ultimately doesn't deliver for the people. And so, you know, so, so

people. And so, you know, so, so people. And so, you know, so, so thankfully, you know, our church, we thankfully, you know, our church, we thankfully, you know, our church, we have people from both sides of the have people from both sides of the have people from both sides of the party, but I think they kind of roll party, but I think they kind of roll party, but I think they kind of roll their eyes and are like, "Let's get on their eyes and are like, "Let's get on their eyes and are like, "Let's get on to the stuff that's within our control." to the stuff that's within our control." to the stuff that's within our control." And, uh, we focus there. And, uh, we focus there. And, uh, we focus there. >> So, walk us through how you speak into >> So, walk us through how you speak into >> So, walk us through how you speak into the issues, issues that I'm picking up the issues, issues that I'm picking up the issues, issues that I'm picking up are going to anger some people on the are going to anger some people on the are going to anger some people on the left, anger some people on the right. left, anger some people on the right. left, anger some people on the right. You're going to talk about economic You're going to talk about economic You're going to talk about economic justice, but you're not going to shy justice, but you're not going to shy justice, but you're not going to shy away from sexuality away from sexuality away from sexuality >> because you're right. you know, you're >> because you're right. you know, you're >> because you're right. you know, you're very tempted to say, "Well, I'm only very tempted to say, "Well, I'm only very tempted to say, "Well, I'm only going to speak into sexuality, but I'm going to speak into sexuality, but I'm going to speak into sexuality, but I'm going to ignore justice." Or, "I'm only going to ignore justice." Or, "I'm only going to ignore justice." Or, "I'm only going to speak into justice, but I'm going to speak into justice, but I'm going to speak into justice, but I'm going to ignore sexuality." Or, I think going to ignore sexuality." Or, I think going to ignore sexuality." Or, I think a lot of churches, suburban in a lot of churches, suburban in a lot of churches, suburban in particular, just avoid all the hot topic particular, just avoid all the hot topic particular, just avoid all the hot topic issues and we'll just talk about Jesus, issues and we'll just talk about Jesus, issues and we'll just talk about Jesus, you know, you know, you know, >> which is which, you know, Jesus did talk >> which is which, you know, Jesus did talk >> which is which, you know, Jesus did talk about some of the harder issues. So, how about some of the harder issues. So, how about some of the harder issues. So, how do you do that in a way that that um is do you do that in a way that that um is do you do that in a way that that um is true to the gospel, true to the gospel, true to the gospel, >> keeps unity in your church? So the vice >> keeps unity in your church? So the vice >> keeps unity in your church? So the vice president and that woman can worship in president and that woman can worship in president and that woman can worship in the same space. Like what advice do you the same space. Like what advice do you the same space. Like what advice do you have? How are you doing it? What advice have? How are you doing it? What advice have? How are you doing it? What advice do you have for people?

do you have for people? do you have for people? >> Yeah. Well, I I I said before, you know, >> Yeah. Well, I I I said before, you know, >> Yeah. Well, I I I said before, you know, speaking about it when the temperature speaking about it when the temperature speaking about it when the temperature is lower is one of the strategies. When is lower is one of the strategies. When is lower is one of the strategies. When emotions are down, people are more emotions are down, people are more emotions are down, people are more teachable. But I also think it starts teachable. But I also think it starts teachable. But I also think it starts with having the revelation that that you with having the revelation that that you with having the revelation that that you as a pastor have been entrusted with as a pastor have been entrusted with as a pastor have been entrusted with spiritual authority by God to disciple spiritual authority by God to disciple spiritual authority by God to disciple the people that are in your church. The the people that are in your church. The the people that are in your church. The reason they're coming to their church is reason they're coming to their church is reason they're coming to their church is to be discipled. to be discipled. to be discipled. >> It's to learn to love more like Jesus, >> It's to learn to love more like Jesus, >> It's to learn to love more like Jesus, to think more like Jesus, to act more to think more like Jesus, to act more to think more like Jesus, to act more like Jesus. They're coming to learn the like Jesus. They're coming to learn the like Jesus. They're coming to learn the scripture. And because we live in the scripture. And because we live in the scripture. And because we live in the day of not just the 24-hour news cycle, day of not just the 24-hour news cycle, day of not just the 24-hour news cycle, but now the 24-hour real cycle, you but now the 24-hour real cycle, you but now the 24-hour real cycle, you know, where all the algorithms are being know, where all the algorithms are being know, where all the algorithms are being pushed to us, people are only getting, pushed to us, people are only getting, pushed to us, people are only getting, you know, one version because of how the you know, one version because of how the you know, one version because of how the algorithm is working. And you don't even algorithm is working. And you don't even algorithm is working. And you don't even have to follow anybody now. if you just have to follow anybody now. if you just have to follow anybody now. if you just watch something then you'll get more of watch something then you'll get more of watch something then you'll get more of it. And so people are living in echo it. And so people are living in echo it. And so people are living in echo chambers throughout the week. And so chambers throughout the week. And so chambers throughout the week. And so when they come to church, they need to when they come to church, they need to when they come to church, they need to hear something that's upstream from the hear something that's upstream from the hear something that's upstream from the culture that's rooted in history, that's culture that's rooted in history, that's culture that's rooted in history, that's rooted in a sense of sacredness and rooted in a sense of sacredness and rooted in a sense of sacredness and spiritual authority. And so you as a spiritual authority. And so you as a spiritual authority. And so you as a pastor need to become an expert on some pastor need to become an expert on some pastor need to become an expert on some of these issues, particularly the of these issues, particularly the of these issues, particularly the strongholds that are in your city. When strongholds that are in your city. When strongholds that are in your city. When Paul went to Athens in Acts 17, he he Paul went to Athens in Acts 17, he he Paul went to Athens in Acts 17, he he was distressed to see the city full of was distressed to see the city full of was distressed to see the city full of idols and then he reasoned with the idols and then he reasoned with the idols and then he reasoned with the philosophers and Stoics because he had philosophers and Stoics because he had philosophers and Stoics because he had studied that context and therefore he studied that context and therefore he studied that context and therefore he was able to speak with spiritual was able to speak with spiritual was able to speak with spiritual authority into that. And so I think it's authority into that. And so I think it's authority into that. And so I think it's very intimidating like I think I was

very intimidating like I think I was very intimidating like I think I was like when the vice president was coming like when the vice president was coming like when the vice president was coming I was like oh my gosh like I'm not a I was like oh my gosh like I'm not a I was like oh my gosh like I'm not a church plant anymore. Like I better grow church plant anymore. Like I better grow church plant anymore. Like I better grow up. Like I I was preaching a sermon, I up. Like I I was preaching a sermon, I up. Like I I was preaching a sermon, I remember on Romans 13, about the remember on Romans 13, about the remember on Romans 13, about the government to the vice president about government to the vice president about government to the vice president about when to submit and then when to uh when to submit and then when to uh when to submit and then when to uh resist going to Acts and then going to resist going to Acts and then going to resist going to Acts and then going to Daniel and knowing and I was like, Daniel and knowing and I was like, Daniel and knowing and I was like, "Wow." And it was in that moment that I "Wow." And it was in that moment that I "Wow." And it was in that moment that I realized, no, God's brought people into realized, no, God's brought people into realized, no, God's brought people into our church. Sometimes people just for a our church. Sometimes people just for a our church. Sometimes people just for a short season, but sometimes it's just short season, but sometimes it's just short season, but sometimes it's just for one sermon. But God has given you for one sermon. But God has given you for one sermon. But God has given you the responsibility as a pastor and a the responsibility as a pastor and a the responsibility as a pastor and a church leader to disciple them in that church leader to disciple them in that church leader to disciple them in that moment to speak the truth in love. And moment to speak the truth in love. And moment to speak the truth in love. And that requires you to know not only the that requires you to know not only the that requires you to know not only the Bible, but how certain sins are Bible, but how certain sins are Bible, but how certain sins are manifesting in your local community or manifesting in your local community or manifesting in your local community or in our nation and world. And I think in our nation and world. And I think in our nation and world. And I think it's too easy for us to track what's it's too easy for us to track what's it's too easy for us to track what's going on with the sins of the nation or going on with the sins of the nation or going on with the sins of the nation or world and not study the ones that are world and not study the ones that are world and not study the ones that are happening locally in our own community. happening locally in our own community. happening locally in our own community. What do you think is the greatest threat What do you think is the greatest threat What do you think is the greatest threat to the church right now, Aaron?

to the church right now, Aaron? to the church right now, Aaron? >> Yeah, I think um one of the things I >> Yeah, I think um one of the things I >> Yeah, I think um one of the things I write about in this this new book, write about in this this new book, write about in this this new book, Unshakable Faith, is just about how the Unshakable Faith, is just about how the Unshakable Faith, is just about how the greatest threat to the church is not greatest threat to the church is not greatest threat to the church is not persecution from the outside, but persecution from the outside, but persecution from the outside, but compromises from within it. when the compromises from within it. when the compromises from within it. when the church slowly absorbs the assumptions of church slowly absorbs the assumptions of church slowly absorbs the assumptions of the culture and then begins reshaping the culture and then begins reshaping the culture and then begins reshaping Christianity around the authority of Christianity around the authority of Christianity around the authority of self rather than the authority of God self rather than the authority of God self rather than the authority of God and the authority of scriptures. And so and the authority of scriptures. And so and the authority of scriptures. And so the authority of scripture and so that the authority of scripture and so that the authority of scripture and so that that's what I've just seen. It happens that's what I've just seen. It happens that's what I've just seen. It happens in every generation in different ways, in every generation in different ways, in every generation in different ways, you know, and so it's people subtly you know, and so it's people subtly you know, and so it's people subtly drifting in their faith. You know, the U drifting in their faith. You know, the U drifting in their faith. You know, the U Ryan Burge and others talk about how Ryan Burge and others talk about how Ryan Burge and others talk about how more people have left the church in more people have left the church in more people have left the church in America in the last 25 years than people America in the last 25 years than people America in the last 25 years than people that came to faith in the first Great that came to faith in the first Great that came to faith in the first Great Awakening, Second Great Awakening, and Awakening, Second Great Awakening, and Awakening, Second Great Awakening, and Billy Graham crusades combined. And so, Billy Graham crusades combined. And so, Billy Graham crusades combined. And so, just as you've said several times on just as you've said several times on just as you've said several times on here, Gen Z is either in revival or here, Gen Z is either in revival or here, Gen Z is either in revival or they're in retreat, right? There's not they're in retreat, right? There's not they're in retreat, right? There's not much middle ground going on right now.

much middle ground going on right now. much middle ground going on right now. And even that as we celebrate those who And even that as we celebrate those who And even that as we celebrate those who are coming to church, um, our student are coming to church, um, our student are coming to church, um, our student ministries are are growing more than ministries are are growing more than ministries are are growing more than ever. I mean, it's it's incredible to ever. I mean, it's it's incredible to ever. I mean, it's it's incredible to see the engagement in Gen Z. Even as see the engagement in Gen Z. Even as see the engagement in Gen Z. Even as that's happening, there's a lot of that's happening, there's a lot of that's happening, there's a lot of people that are drifting, like a lot of people that are drifting, like a lot of people that are drifting, like a lot of people. And I think people. And I think people. And I think >> I think that's the problem. We see the >> I think that's the problem. We see the >> I think that's the problem. We see the anecdotal evidence and it is starting to anecdotal evidence and it is starting to anecdotal evidence and it is starting to pop up a little bit statistically, but pop up a little bit statistically, but pop up a little bit statistically, but the mega trend is there's still a lot of the mega trend is there's still a lot of the mega trend is there's still a lot of drift. drift. drift. >> Yeah. And I've had so many dear friends, >> Yeah. And I've had so many dear friends, >> Yeah. And I've had so many dear friends, colleagues in ministry who have honestly colleagues in ministry who have honestly colleagues in ministry who have honestly drifted drifted drifted not just from ministry like they've not just from ministry like they've not just from ministry like they've drifted from the church, they've drifted drifted from the church, they've drifted drifted from the church, they've drifted from a historic Christian understanding from a historic Christian understanding from a historic Christian understanding of the gospel and they've settled for of the gospel and they've settled for of the gospel and they've settled for expressive individualism where the God expressive individualism where the God expressive individualism where the God is the God of self and exper and it's is the God of self and exper and it's is the God of self and exper and it's actually really unfulfilling. And I actually really unfulfilling. And I actually really unfulfilling. And I think that we need to be more clear and think that we need to be more clear and think that we need to be more clear and and bold as a church because one of the and bold as a church because one of the and bold as a church because one of the things that we're called to do as things that we're called to do as things that we're called to do as pastors is to protect the church from pastors is to protect the church from pastors is to protect the church from false teaching. And I see at least in false teaching. And I see at least in false teaching. And I see at least in DC, I see a lot of false teaching coming DC, I see a lot of false teaching coming DC, I see a lot of false teaching coming in the church in the name of love. And I in the church in the name of love. And I in the church in the name of love. And I think we need more courage to be able to think we need more courage to be able to think we need more courage to be able to discern it earlier discern it earlier discern it earlier um be before it creates a church split um be before it creates a church split um be before it creates a church split um and and be able to lean into that. So um and and be able to lean into that. So um and and be able to lean into that. So that's that's what I see. is not just that's that's what I see. is not just that's that's what I see. is not just what's going out there in culture in the what's going out there in culture in the what's going out there in culture in the world. It's actually what's seeping into world. It's actually what's seeping into world. It's actually what's seeping into the church. And and that's what I try to the church. And and that's what I try to the church. And and that's what I try to talk about in this book um unshakable talk about in this book um unshakable talk about in this book um unshakable faith is seven lies that Christians are faith is seven lies that Christians are faith is seven lies that Christians are tempted to believe. Not non-Christians, tempted to believe. Not non-Christians, tempted to believe. Not non-Christians, but Christians are tempted to believe.

but Christians are tempted to believe. but Christians are tempted to believe. >> You know, I think we all come from a >> You know, I think we all come from a >> You know, I think we all come from a place, Aaron, where we think place, Aaron, where we think place, Aaron, where we think um you know, I'm I'm I'm aligned with um you know, I'm I'm I'm aligned with um you know, I'm I'm I'm aligned with the truth. I've got it. I got this the truth. I've got it. I got this the truth. I've got it. I got this figured out. But but it's important to figured out. But but it's important to figured out. But but it's important to check yourself. How do I know I'm not check yourself. How do I know I'm not check yourself. How do I know I'm not falling for some cultural lie or falling for some cultural lie or falling for some cultural lie or theological drift? What What are the theological drift? What What are the theological drift? What What are the systems, processes you have in your life systems, processes you have in your life systems, processes you have in your life to make sure you stay anchored as much to make sure you stay anchored as much to make sure you stay anchored as much as is humanly possible to what is true as is humanly possible to what is true as is humanly possible to what is true and don't don't just fall for another and don't don't just fall for another and don't don't just fall for another cultural narrative. Cuz I think you're cultural narrative. Cuz I think you're cultural narrative. Cuz I think you're right. We see a lot of leaders who right. We see a lot of leaders who right. We see a lot of leaders who probably looking back on this moment 20 probably looking back on this moment 20 probably looking back on this moment 20 years in the future will look back on years in the future will look back on years in the future will look back on this and go, "Yeah, fell for a cultural this and go, "Yeah, fell for a cultural this and go, "Yeah, fell for a cultural lie. fell for a cultural moment. They lie. fell for a cultural moment. They lie. fell for a cultural moment. They got caught up in the moment got caught up in the moment got caught up in the moment >> and they thought that what was temporal >> and they thought that what was temporal >> and they thought that what was temporal was eternal. They got them confused. How was eternal. They got them confused. How was eternal. They got them confused. How do you make sure that doesn't become do you make sure that doesn't become do you make sure that doesn't become you? You invite people to have spiritual you? You invite people to have spiritual you? You invite people to have spiritual authority in your life to spiritually authority in your life to spiritually authority in your life to spiritually father or mother you who believe in the father or mother you who believe in the father or mother you who believe in the authority of scripture and they minister authority of scripture and they minister authority of scripture and they minister in a different context than you. So, in a different context than you. So, in a different context than you. So, >> so how do you do that? Uh so you spend >> so how do you do that? Uh so you spend >> so how do you do that? Uh so you spend time with people in other contexts. You time with people in other contexts. You time with people in other contexts. You invite you build a relationship with invite you build a relationship with invite you build a relationship with them and then you invite them to speak them and then you invite them to speak them and then you invite them to speak into your life. I just had the privilege into your life. I just had the privilege into your life. I just had the privilege of going to Haidderbad India over New of going to Haidderbad India over New of going to Haidderbad India over New Year's to speak at the second biggest Year's to speak at the second biggest Year's to speak at the second biggest church in the world. It's called uh church in the world. It's called uh church in the world. It's called uh Calvary Temple Calvary Temple Calvary Temple >> and um pastor's incredible Dr. Satish

>> and um pastor's incredible Dr. Satish >> and um pastor's incredible Dr. Satish Kumar doing incredible work and he was Kumar doing incredible work and he was Kumar doing incredible work and he was just coming and he spoke to our staff just coming and he spoke to our staff just coming and he spoke to our staff last week and spent a couple hours with last week and spent a couple hours with last week and spent a couple hours with me just I'm like you you you grew up me just I'm like you you you grew up me just I'm like you you you grew up Hindu are dealing in a very persecuted Hindu are dealing in a very persecuted Hindu are dealing in a very persecuted context in India your church is 400,000 context in India your church is 400,000 context in India your church is 400,000 people something's working let teach me people something's working let teach me people something's working let teach me what am I missing what am I what what do what am I missing what am I what what do what am I missing what am I what what do I need to learn um I'm going to Kenya I need to learn um I'm going to Kenya I need to learn um I'm going to Kenya this summer um pastor Marathy Wjouo this summer um pastor Marathy Wjouo this summer um pastor Marathy Wjouo somebody that has spiritual leadership somebody that has spiritual leadership somebody that has spiritual leadership in my life speaks in my life in a in my life speaks in my life in a in my life speaks in my life in a totally different context totally different context totally different context Same thing with pastors not just in DC, Same thing with pastors not just in DC, Same thing with pastors not just in DC, but having pastors that are in different but having pastors that are in different but having pastors that are in different context for me. That's like Larry context for me. That's like Larry context for me. That's like Larry Osborne and Steve Stroop and Rich Nathan Osborne and Steve Stroop and Rich Nathan Osborne and Steve Stroop and Rich Nathan and other people that have spoken into and other people that have spoken into and other people that have spoken into my life over the years that are in my life over the years that are in my life over the years that are in different context because it's very easy different context because it's very easy different context because it's very easy to miss something when you're in your to miss something when you're in your to miss something when you're in your own bubble. And so it's it's not only own bubble. And so it's it's not only own bubble. And so it's it's not only having that board governance to check having that board governance to check having that board governance to check around, you know, the organization and around, you know, the organization and around, you know, the organization and your own leadership, but it's also this your own leadership, but it's also this your own leadership, but it's also this inviting people spiritually to speak inviting people spiritually to speak inviting people spiritually to speak into your life. Um, you know, Pastor Don into your life. Um, you know, Pastor Don into your life. Um, you know, Pastor Don Coleman, who has been my spiritual Coleman, who has been my spiritual Coleman, who has been my spiritual grandfather really since my college days grandfather really since my college days grandfather really since my college days for 25 years, pastors in Richmond, for 25 years, pastors in Richmond, for 25 years, pastors in Richmond, Virginia, just spending time with him, Virginia, just spending time with him, Virginia, just spending time with him, allowing him to speak into my life. Um, allowing him to speak into my life. Um, allowing him to speak into my life. Um, that's one of the ways we we miss that that's one of the ways we we miss that that's one of the ways we we miss that we we try to avoid missing things.

we we try to avoid missing things. we we try to avoid missing things. >> So, a diversity of voices, not just >> So, a diversity of voices, not just >> So, a diversity of voices, not just people you went to seminary with or part people you went to seminary with or part people you went to seminary with or part of your quote tribe of your quote tribe of your quote tribe >> and inviting them, asking them the >> and inviting them, asking them the >> and inviting them, asking them the question, what do you think I'm tempted question, what do you think I'm tempted question, what do you think I'm tempted to miss right now in this season of my to miss right now in this season of my to miss right now in this season of my life? life? life? >> So, I was I was sitting down with Pastor >> So, I was I was sitting down with Pastor >> So, I was I was sitting down with Pastor Steuart Mccalpine recently on my front Steuart Mccalpine recently on my front Steuart Mccalpine recently on my front porch who's a spiritual father to me in porch who's a spiritual father to me in porch who's a spiritual father to me in this city. And I said, "What do you this city. And I said, "What do you this city. And I said, "What do you think we're missing right now in our think we're missing right now in our think we're missing right now in our church?" And he was like, "Prayer." He's church?" And he was like, "Prayer." He's church?" And he was like, "Prayer." He's like in this generation like we're not like in this generation like we're not like in this generation like we're not praying enough in our church services. praying enough in our church services. praying enough in our church services. >> And I just like knew agree with that. >> And I just like knew agree with that. >> And I just like knew agree with that. Came back to him, asked him and like Came back to him, asked him and like Came back to him, asked him and like there's more prayer in our services there's more prayer in our services there's more prayer in our services right now because he's, you know, he's right now because he's, you know, he's right now because he's, you know, he's pastored for 40 years. There's just pastored for 40 years. There's just pastored for 40 years. There's just something he's learned that it's easy something he's learned that it's easy something he's learned that it's easy for me to miss when I'm thinking about for me to miss when I'm thinking about for me to miss when I'm thinking about how to start more services, get people how to start more services, get people how to start more services, get people in and out, and all these other things, in and out, and all these other things, in and out, and all these other things, but what am I not doing formationwise in but what am I not doing formationwise in but what am I not doing formationwise in people's lives? So, yeah. people's lives? So, yeah. people's lives? So, yeah. >> Well, love your new book. It's called >> Well, love your new book. It's called >> Well, love your new book. It's called Unshakable Faith. Um, how to stand firm Unshakable Faith. Um, how to stand firm Unshakable Faith. Um, how to stand firm in a culture of lies and the lies fly in in a culture of lies and the lies fly in in a culture of lies and the lies fly in every direction. It's out everywhere every direction. It's out everywhere every direction. It's out everywhere that you buy books. If people want to that you buy books. If people want to that you buy books. If people want to track with you, Aaron, where you where track with you, Aaron, where you where track with you, Aaron, where you where are you showing up online these days?

are you showing up online these days? are you showing up online these days? >> Yeah, so you can uh follow me at Aaron >> Yeah, so you can uh follow me at Aaron >> Yeah, so you can uh follow me at Aaron Graham DC on any of the handles or aaron Graham DC on any of the handles or aaron Graham DC on any of the handles or aaron dc.com. You sign up for my weekly dc.com. You sign up for my weekly dc.com. You sign up for my weekly newsletter and uh learn more about um newsletter and uh learn more about um newsletter and uh learn more about um what I'm up to. So, love to have you on what I'm up to. So, love to have you on what I'm up to. So, love to have you on the journey. the journey. the journey. >> Great. Well, thanks so much. I'm glad we >> Great. Well, thanks so much. I'm glad we >> Great. Well, thanks so much. I'm glad we finally connected and this has been a finally connected and this has been a finally connected and this has been a riveting, surprising, fascinating hour riveting, surprising, fascinating hour riveting, surprising, fascinating hour and a bit for sure. and a bit for sure. and a bit for sure. >> You are a legend. You are like my number >> You are a legend. You are like my number >> You are a legend. You are like my number one podcast listener. Every time I work one podcast listener. Every time I work one podcast listener. Every time I work out, I'm listening to the podcast. So, out, I'm listening to the podcast. So, out, I'm listening to the podcast. So, it's like totally an honor to be on and it's like totally an honor to be on and it's like totally an honor to be on and to be in the conversation. You've hosted to be in the conversation. You've hosted to be in the conversation. You've hosted so many conversations that have impacted so many conversations that have impacted so many conversations that have impacted my leadership and the [clears throat] my leadership and the [clears throat] my leadership and the [clears throat] leadership of our church. So, thanks. leadership of our church. So, thanks. leadership of our church. So, thanks. Thanks for what you do. Thanks for what you do. Thanks for what you do. >> This is one that's impacted me. It >> This is one that's impacted me. It >> This is one that's impacted me. It really has. Really appreciate it, Erin. really has. Really appreciate it, Erin. really has. Really appreciate it, Erin. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, it was so good >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, it was so good >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, it was so good to have Aaron on the podcast for the to have Aaron on the podcast for the to have Aaron on the podcast for the first time. Uh, I hope you enjoyed that. first time. Uh, I hope you enjoyed that. first time. Uh, I hope you enjoyed that. If you want show notes, you can get them If you want show notes, you can get them If you want show notes, you can get them for free along with 22,000 other for free along with 22,000 other for free along with 22,000 other leaders. Join the community in the Art leaders. Join the community in the Art leaders. Join the community in the Art of Leadership Academy. Appreciate what of Leadership Academy. Appreciate what of Leadership Academy. Appreciate what Aaron had to say. I am so grateful for Aaron had to say. I am so grateful for Aaron had to say. I am so grateful for you because when you share this episode, you because when you share this episode, you because when you share this episode, it helps us get to people like Aaron and it helps us get to people like Aaron and it helps us get to people like Aaron and to many, many others. And we want to to many, many others. And we want to to many, many others. And we want to bring you the best show we can. If you bring you the best show we can. If you bring you the best show we can. If you follow or subscribe, you'll never miss follow or subscribe, you'll never miss follow or subscribe, you'll never miss an episode. And after sharing it with a an episode. And after sharing it with a an episode. And after sharing it with a friend, maybe leave us a rating and friend, maybe leave us a rating and friend, maybe leave us a rating and review. Hope our time together today has review. Hope our time together today has review. Hope our time together today has helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.