David Epstein: The Truth About Talent and the 10,000 Hour Rule

So, he was asked to write a children's So, he was asked to write a children's book using about 200 words from a book using about 200 words from a book using about 200 words from a vocabulary list. He gets frustrated and vocabulary list. He gets frustrated and vocabulary list. He gets frustrated and just decides, you know what, I'm just just decides, you know what, I'm just just decides, you know what, I'm just going to take the first two rhyming going to take the first two rhyming going to take the first two rhyming words on the list and make a book out of words on the list and make a book out of words on the list and make a book out of it. And the first two rhyming words cat it. And the first two rhyming words cat it. And the first two rhyming words cat and hat, which then led to the and hat, which then led to the and hat, which then led to the subsequent bet of bet you couldn't do subsequent bet of bet you couldn't do subsequent bet of bet you couldn't do this with only 50 words instead, and this with only 50 words instead, and this with only 50 words instead, and that that became Green Eggs and Ham. that that became Green Eggs and Ham. that that became Green Eggs and Ham. >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Man, I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. Man, I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. Man, I'm so glad you joined us and I hope our time together today helps and I hope our time together today helps and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. I you thrive in life and leadership. I you thrive in life and leadership. I love meeting interesting people. David love meeting interesting people. David love meeting interesting people. David Epstein is on the podcast. He's a number Epstein is on the podcast. He's a number Epstein is on the podcast. He's a number one New York Times best-selling author. one New York Times best-selling author. one New York Times best-selling author. You ever believe in the 10,000 hour rule You ever believe in the 10,000 hour rule You ever believe in the 10,000 hour rule that you need to become a specialist? that you need to become a specialist? that you need to become a specialist? He's going to tell us why that's wrong. He's going to tell us why that's wrong. He's going to tell us why that's wrong. How he actually debated Malcolm How he actually debated Malcolm How he actually debated Malcolm Gladwell, debunked the theory, and then Gladwell, debunked the theory, and then Gladwell, debunked the theory, and then they became friends. Like we need more they became friends. Like we need more they became friends. Like we need more of that in the world, right? How of that in the world, right? How of that in the world, right? How creativity actually works and why creativity actually works and why creativity actually works and why constraints set you free. He tells the constraints set you free. He tells the constraints set you free. He tells the fascinating story of Dr. Seuss and The fascinating story of Dr. Seuss and The fascinating story of Dr. Seuss and The Cat in the Hat and Green Eggs and Ham. Cat in the Hat and Green Eggs and Ham. Cat in the Hat and Green Eggs and Ham. Uh basic what I'm not going to spoil it. Uh basic what I'm not going to spoil it. Uh basic what I'm not going to spoil it. You got to listen in. This is a You got to listen in. This is a You got to listen in. This is a fascinating interview. For all of you fascinating interview. For all of you fascinating interview. For all of you who are new to the podcast, welcome. I'm who are new to the podcast, welcome. I'm who are new to the podcast, welcome. I'm really glad you joined us. My favorite really glad you joined us. My favorite really glad you joined us. My favorite season is here. It is summer. I will be season is here. It is summer. I will be season is here. It is summer. I will be out on my bike, out on the boat. What out on my bike, out on the boat. What out on my bike, out on the boat. What are you doing? I hope you're getting a are you doing? I hope you're getting a are you doing? I hope you're getting a good rest. And maybe with some time in good rest. And maybe with some time in good rest. And maybe with some time in the backyard mowing the lawn, you know, the backyard mowing the lawn, you know, the backyard mowing the lawn, you know, going for a run going for a bike ride, going for a run going for a bike ride, going for a run going for a bike ride, you're catching up on your podcast.

you're catching up on your podcast. you're catching up on your podcast. That's what I always do all summer long. That's what I always do all summer long. That's what I always do all summer long. So, we're really glad you're watching, So, we're really glad you're watching, So, we're really glad you're watching, really glad that you're listening in. really glad that you're listening in. really glad that you're listening in. David Epstein is the author of Inside David Epstein is the author of Inside David Epstein is the author of Inside the Box, the number one New York Times the Box, the number one New York Times the Box, the number one New York Times best-selling Range, and the New York best-selling Range, and the New York best-selling Range, and the New York Times best-selling The Sports Gene. He Times best-selling The Sports Gene. He Times best-selling The Sports Gene. He has master's degrees in environmental has master's degrees in environmental has master's degrees in environmental science and journalism and has worked as science and journalism and has worked as science and journalism and has worked as a senior writer for Sports Illustrated a senior writer for Sports Illustrated a senior writer for Sports Illustrated and an investigative reporter for and an investigative reporter for and an investigative reporter for ProPublica. We get into his background ProPublica. We get into his background ProPublica. We get into his background and the power of curiosity as well. And and the power of curiosity as well. And and the power of curiosity as well. And now my conversation with David Epstein. now my conversation with David Epstein. now my conversation with David Epstein. Uh David, I'm really delighted to have Uh David, I'm really delighted to have Uh David, I'm really delighted to have you on the podcast. Welcome. you on the podcast. Welcome. you on the podcast. Welcome. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> Yeah, so you have the one more like >> Yeah, so you have the one more like >> Yeah, so you have the one more like quite a an interesting resume and before quite a an interesting resume and before quite a an interesting resume and before we were going to talk a lot about we were going to talk a lot about we were going to talk a lot about constraints today we're going to talk constraints today we're going to talk constraints today we're going to talk about range, but before we get there, about range, but before we get there, about range, but before we get there, I'm always curious in people's career I'm always curious in people's career I'm always curious in people's career path. path. path. And like me you kind of took a And like me you kind of took a And like me you kind of took a circuitous one. You you've got a broad circuitous one. You you've got a broad circuitous one. You you've got a broad range of interest. So can you give us range of interest. So can you give us range of interest. So can you give us the the flyover? the the flyover? the the flyover? On how you ended up doing what you're On how you ended up doing what you're On how you ended up doing what you're doing? doing? doing? >> Sure. Well, I was >> Sure. Well, I was >> Sure. Well, I was training to be at my academic background training to be at my academic background training to be at my academic background was in sciences.

was in sciences. was in sciences. I and I went to grad school in I and I went to grad school in I and I went to grad school in environmental sciences. I mean I was environmental sciences. I mean I was environmental sciences. I mean I was studying the car I was living in a tent studying the car I was living in a tent studying the car I was living in a tent in the Arctic studying the carbon cycle. in the Arctic studying the carbon cycle. in the Arctic studying the carbon cycle. But there's a there's a little bit of a But there's a there's a little bit of a But there's a there's a little bit of a sad part to this story which is I was sad part to this story which is I was sad part to this story which is I was also a national level runner and I had a also a national level runner and I had a also a national level runner and I had a training partner who died at the end of training partner who died at the end of training partner who died at the end of a race. a race. a race. >> Oh no. >> Oh no. >> Oh no. >> From a genetic condition he didn't know >> From a genetic condition he didn't know >> From a genetic condition he didn't know he had and I wanted to merge my interest he had and I wanted to merge my interest he had and I wanted to merge my interest in sports and science and write about in sports and science and write about in sports and science and write about sudden cardiac death in athletes. sudden cardiac death in athletes. sudden cardiac death in athletes. And so I ended up leaving the science And so I ended up leaving the science And so I ended up leaving the science track that I was on. And long story track that I was on. And long story track that I was on. And long story short I became the science writer at short I became the science writer at short I became the science writer at Sports Illustrated magazine with the Sports Illustrated magazine with the Sports Illustrated magazine with the intent of writing about sudden cardiac intent of writing about sudden cardiac intent of writing about sudden cardiac death in athletes which I did but then death in athletes which I did but then death in athletes which I did but then that broadened into just becoming the that broadened into just becoming the that broadened into just becoming the science writer more generally which science writer more generally which science writer more generally which meant I was writing about bad things meant I was writing about bad things meant I was writing about bad things like you know brain trauma and drugs and like you know brain trauma and drugs and like you know brain trauma and drugs and good things like human human performance good things like human human performance good things like human human performance and what we were learning about that and what we were learning about that and what we were learning about that through science. through science. through science. And that just ignited this career. And that just ignited this career. And that just ignited this career. I mean my first book was about genetics I mean my first book was about genetics I mean my first book was about genetics and athleticism and it was my my and athleticism and it was my my and athleticism and it was my my friend's death that got me interested in friend's death that got me interested in friend's death that got me interested in genetics but it it just opened me up in genetics but it it just opened me up in genetics but it it just opened me up in this world where I realized I could this world where I realized I could this world where I realized I could follow my curiosity writing about human follow my curiosity writing about human follow my curiosity writing about human performance in general. And so that's performance in general. And so that's performance in general. And so that's that's what I started doing and have that's what I started doing and have that's what I started doing and have been doing ever since. [clears throat] been doing ever since. [clears throat] been doing ever since. [clears throat] >> is it the case that you broke the A-Rod >> is it the case that you broke the A-Rod >> is it the case that you broke the A-Rod story Alex Rodriguez and steroids and story Alex Rodriguez and steroids and story Alex Rodriguez and steroids and that kind of thing?

that kind of thing? that kind of thing? >> Yeah, myself with a colleague >> Yeah, myself with a colleague >> Yeah, myself with a colleague that that that back in in 2009 yeah we broke the story back in in 2009 yeah we broke the story back in in 2009 yeah we broke the story that he had he had used steroids. that he had he had used steroids. that he had he had used steroids. >> Hm. Hm. So yeah and also an extreme >> Hm. Hm. So yeah and also an extreme >> Hm. Hm. So yeah and also an extreme runner as well right? You do long runner as well right? You do long runner as well right? You do long distance running apparently with Malcolm distance running apparently with Malcolm distance running apparently with Malcolm Gladwell. So, another guest of this Gladwell. So, another guest of this Gladwell. So, another guest of this podcast. podcast. podcast. >> not the extreme like ultra-marathons >> not the extreme like ultra-marathons >> not the extreme like ultra-marathons kind of thing. So, my best event was the kind of thing. So, my best event was the kind of thing. So, my best event was the 800 m, so the half mile. 800 m, so the half mile. 800 m, so the half mile. Um and Malcolm's best event was the Um and Malcolm's best event was the Um and Malcolm's best event was the mile. So, we did become running buddies. mile. So, we did become running buddies. mile. So, we did become running buddies. And and that's a pretty good fit. So, we And and that's a pretty good fit. So, we And and that's a pretty good fit. So, we were both sort of pretty speedy were both sort of pretty speedy were both sort of pretty speedy middle-distance runners. middle-distance runners. middle-distance runners. Um so, yeah. So, now I do, you know, I Um so, yeah. So, now I do, you know, I Um so, yeah. So, now I do, you know, I would call what I do now jogging, but I would call what I do now jogging, but I would call what I do now jogging, but I do a lot of it. do a lot of it. do a lot of it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I I would exaggerate to say I do any >> I I would exaggerate to say I do any >> I I would exaggerate to say I do any kind of running, but uh you know, the kind of running, but uh you know, the kind of running, but uh you know, the thing that I like about about Malcolm, thing that I like about about Malcolm, thing that I like about about Malcolm, and it seems like certainly with your and it seems like certainly with your and it seems like certainly with your pedigree and the way you write, there's pedigree and the way you write, there's pedigree and the way you write, there's an inherent curiosity. Like, Malcolm's an inherent curiosity. Like, Malcolm's an inherent curiosity. Like, Malcolm's my age. He has not slowed down in his my age. He has not slowed down in his my age. He has not slowed down in his curiosity, his curiosity, his curiosity, his >> Not at all. >> Not at all. >> Not at all. >> you know, he's just always interested, >> you know, he's just always interested, >> you know, he's just always interested, got really got really got really sort of a fascinating outlook on the sort of a fascinating outlook on the sort of a fascinating outlook on the world. Is that Is that the way, like in world. Is that Is that the way, like in world. Is that Is that the way, like in your case, David? Is that how you were your case, David? Is that how you were your case, David? Is that how you were born? Is that something you cultivate?

born? Is that something you cultivate? born? Is that something you cultivate? >> It's a great question because I don't >> It's a great question because I don't >> It's a great question because I don't think think think I was aware of how unusually curious I I was aware of how unusually curious I I was aware of how unusually curious I am am am until maybe even my my kind of late 20s. And maybe even my my kind of late 20s. And probably once I got out into the work probably once I got out into the work probably once I got out into the work world, world, world, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and it it started standing out some >> and it it started standing out some >> and it it started standing out some compared to compared to compared to um um um some of the people I was around who are some of the people I was around who are some of the people I was around who are more used to just doing the same thing more used to just doing the same thing more used to just doing the same thing over and over and over. And I just like over and over and over. And I just like over and over and over. And I just like did not have a good tolerance for doing did not have a good tolerance for doing did not have a good tolerance for doing the same thing over and over. And I was the same thing over and over. And I was the same thing over and over. And I was always reading weird things and uh always reading weird things and uh always reading weird things and uh you know, and one of the things I loved you know, and one of the things I loved you know, and one of the things I loved about journalism was it about journalism was it about journalism was it drops you in to get this keyhole view drops you in to get this keyhole view drops you in to get this keyhole view about into other people's lives that you about into other people's lives that you about into other people's lives that you would never get otherwise. And I would never get otherwise. And I would never get otherwise. And I realized I really really loved that. So, realized I really really loved that. So, realized I really really loved that. So, I would be pitching all sorts of I would be pitching all sorts of I would be pitching all sorts of different kinds of story instead of different kinds of story instead of different kinds of story instead of focusing in on a particular uh area of focusing in on a particular uh area of focusing in on a particular uh area of stories, like pitching really widely cuz stories, like pitching really widely cuz stories, like pitching really widely cuz I'm like, well, I really want to I'm like, well, I really want to I'm like, well, I really want to understand this person's life. So, you understand this person's life. So, you understand this person's life. So, you pitch a story, and then you can go spend pitch a story, and then you can go spend pitch a story, and then you can go spend time with them. time with them. time with them. So, I don't know if it's how I always So, I don't know if it's how I always So, I don't know if it's how I always was because I didn't really view it as was because I didn't really view it as was because I didn't really view it as something unusual until I was more out something unusual until I was more out something unusual until I was more out in the workforce. But then it it felt in the workforce. But then it it felt in the workforce. But then it it felt like it kind of just built on itself.

like it kind of just built on itself. like it kind of just built on itself. Sort of the more ability I got through Sort of the more ability I got through Sort of the more ability I got through my work to learn things that were new to my work to learn things that were new to my work to learn things that were new to me and meet people who are very me and meet people who are very me and meet people who are very different from me, different from me, different from me, the the more I wanted. And so, I I think the the more I wanted. And so, I I think the the more I wanted. And so, I I think probably that probably that probably that seed was there, but then it was like seed was there, but then it was like seed was there, but then it was like just just just you know, I I I just kind of this you know, I I I just kind of this you know, I I I just kind of this feeling of positive feedback internally feeling of positive feedback internally feeling of positive feedback internally and also sometimes externally from and also sometimes externally from and also sometimes externally from uh spreading my curiosity really really uh spreading my curiosity really really uh spreading my curiosity really really widely. widely. widely. >> Yeah, I kind of bumped into curiosity 20 >> Yeah, I kind of bumped into curiosity 20 >> Yeah, I kind of bumped into curiosity 20 years ago. I had a season of burnout, years ago. I had a season of burnout, years ago. I had a season of burnout, and one of the things that often and one of the things that often and one of the things that often accompanies burnout and it did for me is accompanies burnout and it did for me is accompanies burnout and it did for me is cynicism. cynicism. cynicism. And so, I really became And so, I really became And so, I really became fixated. I was 40 fixated. I was 40 fixated. I was 40 on what on what on what What is the antidote to cynicism? And What is the antidote to cynicism? And What is the antidote to cynicism? And what I landed on was curiosity. That what I landed on was curiosity. That what I landed on was curiosity. That curious people are never cynical and curious people are never cynical and curious people are never cynical and cynical people are never curious. cynical people are never curious. cynical people are never curious. And so, when I meet someone like you, And so, when I meet someone like you, And so, when I meet someone like you, I'm just I am curious. And And this this I'm just I am curious. And And this this I'm just I am curious. And And this this podcast, you know, 800 episodes in, kind podcast, you know, 800 episodes in, kind podcast, you know, 800 episodes in, kind of feeds my one of my curiosity itches. of feeds my one of my curiosity itches. of feeds my one of my curiosity itches. It's like I get to interview It's like I get to interview It's like I get to interview fascinating, world-changing leaders, fascinating, world-changing leaders, fascinating, world-changing leaders, um people who change the dialogue on um people who change the dialogue on um people who change the dialogue on things. And it's from a wide variety.

things. And it's from a wide variety. things. And it's from a wide variety. It's not just like I have one type of It's not just like I have one type of It's not just like I have one type of leader on the show. I have a variety of leader on the show. I have a variety of leader on the show. I have a variety of leaders. And I'm wondering, do you have leaders. And I'm wondering, do you have leaders. And I'm wondering, do you have any habits? Do you have any any habits? Do you have any any habits? Do you have any um um um disciplines that intentionally or disciplines that intentionally or disciplines that intentionally or unintentionally unintentionally unintentionally help feed your curiosity? help feed your curiosity? help feed your curiosity? >> Oh, yeah, very intentionally. I mean, >> Oh, yeah, very intentionally. I mean, >> Oh, yeah, very intentionally. I mean, first of all, first of all, first of all, all of my work now, like my my books, all of my work now, like my my books, all of my work now, like my my books, including, you know, the new one, including, you know, the new one, including, you know, the new one, is driven by something I'm interested in is driven by something I'm interested in is driven by something I'm interested in before I'm ever thinking about writing a before I'm ever thinking about writing a before I'm ever thinking about writing a book. book. book. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> It's just something that I got >> It's just something that I got >> It's just something that I got interested in some other way, whether I interested in some other way, whether I interested in some other way, whether I mean, in this case it was a lot of me mean, in this case it was a lot of me mean, in this case it was a lot of me searching it. I wanted to improve things searching it. I wanted to improve things searching it. I wanted to improve things about myself, but also just findings about myself, but also just findings about myself, but also just findings that I would notice in research and so I that I would notice in research and so I that I would notice in research and so I really start researching it really start researching it really start researching it well before I'm thinking that it's going well before I'm thinking that it's going well before I'm thinking that it's going to be a work project and then I end up to be a work project and then I end up to be a work project and then I end up spending so much time doing it that I spending so much time doing it that I spending so much time doing it that I say, "Okay, this needs to be a job." But say, "Okay, this needs to be a job." But say, "Okay, this needs to be a job." But But even outside of when I'm working on But even outside of when I'm working on But even outside of when I'm working on book projects book projects book projects Well, and and and I should say I I Well, and and and I should say I I Well, and and and I should say I I specifically take on specifically take on specifically take on these sort of amorphous ideas that mean these sort of amorphous ideas that mean these sort of amorphous ideas that mean I will be researching art and science I will be researching art and science I will be researching art and science and sports and music and economics and and sports and music and economics and and sports and music and economics and all these other things. So, I take on all these other things. So, I take on all these other things. So, I take on these very broad topics because they these very broad topics because they these very broad topics because they will allow me to to approach it from all will allow me to to approach it from all will allow me to to approach it from all these different angles.

these different angles. these different angles. But I also keep something that I call my But I also keep something that I call my But I also keep something that I call my book of small experiments where um at book of small experiments where um at book of small experiments where um at least every month I'll put something in least every month I'll put something in least every month I'll put something in it about something I want to learn or it about something I want to learn or it about something I want to learn or try or understand and then I'll I I try or understand and then I'll I I try or understand and then I'll I I treat it like I did my notebook when I treat it like I did my notebook when I treat it like I did my notebook when I was a science grad student. I'll put a was a science grad student. I'll put a was a science grad student. I'll put a hypothesis of how could I learn about hypothesis of how could I learn about hypothesis of how could I learn about this thing? Is that interviewing this thing? Is that interviewing this thing? Is that interviewing somebody? Is that taking a class? Is it somebody? Is that taking a class? Is it somebody? Is that taking a class? Is it taking a trip? Etcetera. And then I'll taking a trip? Etcetera. And then I'll taking a trip? Etcetera. And then I'll do it. do it. do it. And it it has to be something that's And it it has to be something that's And it it has to be something that's outside of my my normal daily work or it outside of my my normal daily work or it outside of my my normal daily work or it also wouldn't really be an experiment also wouldn't really be an experiment also wouldn't really be an experiment and so that's a practice that that I and so that's a practice that that I and so that's a practice that that I have and I I do monthly. And sometimes have and I I do monthly. And sometimes have and I I do monthly. And sometimes the experiments are fruitful and the experiments are fruitful and the experiments are fruitful and sometimes not but sometimes not but sometimes not but um um um but some of them are really fruitful. but some of them are really fruitful. but some of them are really fruitful. So, I think the practice is really So, I think the practice is really So, I think the practice is really worthwhile. worthwhile. worthwhile. >> That's interesting, you know, it reminds >> That's interesting, you know, it reminds >> That's interesting, you know, it reminds me a little bit and you might be able to me a little bit and you might be able to me a little bit and you might be able to help me here jog my memory. Isaacson's help me here jog my memory. Isaacson's help me here jog my memory. Isaacson's biography of Da Vinci. Do you remember biography of Da Vinci. Do you remember biography of Da Vinci. Do you remember that one? He had a notebook that he kept that one? He had a notebook that he kept that one? He had a notebook that he kept and I think one of the things he wanted and I think one of the things he wanted and I think one of the things he wanted to figure out to figure out to figure out is how the woodpecker is how the woodpecker is how the woodpecker woodpecker's beak doesn't get crushed woodpecker's beak doesn't get crushed woodpecker's beak doesn't get crushed when it's like picking at something. It when it's like picking at something. It when it's like picking at something. It was something along those lines and he was something along those lines and he was something along those lines and he just had this this list of curiosities just had this this list of curiosities just had this this list of curiosities that he wanted to try to solve during that he wanted to try to solve during that he wanted to try to solve during his lifetime. Do you know that story or his lifetime. Do you know that story or his lifetime. Do you know that story or >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's true and I mean >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's true and I mean >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's true and I mean he had he had he had so many, right? I'd say his challenge in so many, right? I'd say his challenge in so many, right? I'd say his challenge in many cases was figuring out which ones many cases was figuring out which ones many cases was figuring out which ones to pursue.

to pursue. to pursue. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um as opposed to not having enough ideas >> Um as opposed to not having enough ideas >> Um as opposed to not having enough ideas But that there's But that there's But that there's I see that in a bunch of people I admire I see that in a bunch of people I admire I see that in a bunch of people I admire like like like my my neighbor and friend in the great my my neighbor and friend in the great my my neighbor and friend in the great writer Dan Pink for example. writer Dan Pink for example. writer Dan Pink for example. >> Oh, I didn't know you neighbors with >> Oh, I didn't know you neighbors with >> Oh, I didn't know you neighbors with Dan. That's great. Dan. That's great. Dan. That's great. >> Yeah, yeah. He calls this a spark list, >> Yeah, yeah. He calls this a spark list, >> Yeah, yeah. He calls this a spark list, right? He keeps it's just these ideas right? He keeps it's just these ideas right? He keeps it's just these ideas that that that lit something for him and that he wants lit something for him and that he wants lit something for him and that he wants to investigate later and and a lot of to investigate later and and a lot of to investigate later and and a lot of people and writers I really admire people and writers I really admire people and writers I really admire will have something like that. I have will have something like that. I have will have something like that. I have what I call the master thought list. what I call the master thought list. what I call the master thought list. We'll have something that's just We'll have something that's just We'll have something that's just >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> it's there for for actually what's >> it's there for for actually what's >> it's there for for actually what's called in research specific curiosity. called in research specific curiosity. called in research specific curiosity. So I write about this a little bit in So I write about this a little bit in So I write about this a little bit in inside the box that when you you can inside the box that when you you can inside the box that when you you can find something really specific to be find something really specific to be find something really specific to be curious about it actually drives your curious about it actually drives your curious about it actually drives your creativity often in really unexpected creativity often in really unexpected creativity often in really unexpected ways where you may end up very far from ways where you may end up very far from ways where you may end up very far from that specific question from the that specific question from the that specific question from the woodpecker's beak or whatever it is but woodpecker's beak or whatever it is but woodpecker's beak or whatever it is but starting with this really specific thing starting with this really specific thing starting with this really specific thing to investigate to investigate to investigate leads to what researchers call idea leads to what researchers call idea leads to what researchers call idea linking where you one thing will lead to linking where you one thing will lead to linking where you one thing will lead to another and you may end up very far away another and you may end up very far away another and you may end up very far away and somewhere really interesting that and somewhere really interesting that and somewhere really interesting that you had never foreseen.

you had never foreseen. you had never foreseen. >> Just to get super practical, is that >> Just to get super practical, is that >> Just to get super practical, is that like in lists or notes in your phone? Is like in lists or notes in your phone? Is like in lists or notes in your phone? Is it an actual notebook? How how do you it an actual notebook? How how do you it an actual notebook? How how do you how do you cultivate that? how do you cultivate that? how do you cultivate that? >> For me, I I often >> For me, I I often >> For me, I I often like one program I use is called Roam r like one program I use is called Roam r like one program I use is called Roam r o a m research and it it's basically o a m research and it it's basically o a m research and it it's basically it's it's it's it's not a word document but it's kind it's not a word document but it's kind it's not a word document but it's kind of like that but but linked within of like that but but linked within of like that but but linked within itself. The best thing I would liken it itself. The best thing I would liken it itself. The best thing I would liken it to to to is a Wikipedia of your own brain. So is a Wikipedia of your own brain. So is a Wikipedia of your own brain. So you're setting up these pages that you're setting up these pages that you're setting up these pages that interlink with one another so you can interlink with one another so you can interlink with one another so you can click between them and see related ideas click between them and see related ideas click between them and see related ideas and tag things that are related. And so and tag things that are related. And so and tag things that are related. And so as you build it out it becomes a bit of as you build it out it becomes a bit of as you build it out it becomes a bit of a like a wiki of your own thoughts. But a like a wiki of your own thoughts. But a like a wiki of your own thoughts. But I but before that I was doing it really I but before that I was doing it really I but before that I was doing it really just as well with just a just as well with just a just as well with just a just a word document basically where I I just a word document basically where I I just a word document basically where I I drop things and then I start to organize drop things and then I start to organize drop things and then I start to organize them under them under them under what I call tags which will be like a what I call tags which will be like a what I call tags which will be like a subject heading or some topic of subject heading or some topic of subject heading or some topic of interest. It could be statistics, interest. It could be statistics, interest. It could be statistics, quotes, whatever. And quotes, whatever. And quotes, whatever. And I'll see that document with a bunch of I'll see that document with a bunch of I'll see that document with a bunch of words that I think I would free words that I think I would free words that I think I would free associate so that associate so that associate so that you know, when I want to control F or you know, when I want to control F or you know, when I want to control F or search through it, I can just think of search through it, I can just think of search through it, I can just think of some idea that comes to mind and it'll some idea that comes to mind and it'll some idea that comes to mind and it'll bring me back to all these other related bring me back to all these other related bring me back to all these other related ideas.

ideas. ideas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that you >> It's interesting you mentioned that you >> It's interesting you mentioned that you have friends who have a similar habit or have friends who have a similar habit or have friends who have a similar habit or practice. practice. practice. What and we're going to get into um What and we're going to get into um What and we're going to get into um constraints and inside the box and range constraints and inside the box and range constraints and inside the box and range and all of those ideas, but this is this and all of those ideas, but this is this and all of those ideas, but this is this is a fun is a fun is a fun accidental discovery early on in the accidental discovery early on in the accidental discovery early on in the interview. interview. interview. What do you notice about What do you notice about What do you notice about um curious people um curious people um curious people as opposed to the people who just like as opposed to the people who just like as opposed to the people who just like I'm going to lock in and like got my I'm going to lock in and like got my I'm going to lock in and like got my blinders on? blinders on? blinders on? >> I would say um It It Not to say that other people aren't Not to say that other people aren't Not to say that other people aren't necessarily like this, but one thing necessarily like this, but one thing necessarily like this, but one thing that I do notice for sure about really that I do notice for sure about really that I do notice for sure about really curious people is that they tend to be curious people is that they tend to be curious people is that they tend to be quite non-judgmental. quite non-judgmental. quite non-judgmental. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So >> So >> So um um um have a It may be the It may be the the the curiosity is so overarching that the the curiosity is so overarching that the the curiosity is so overarching that they may interact with people whose they may interact with people whose they may interact with people whose beliefs they find objectionable or whose beliefs they find objectionable or whose beliefs they find objectionable or whose work they find objectionable or whatever work they find objectionable or whatever work they find objectionable or whatever it is, it is, it is, but they're kind of able to put that on but they're kind of able to put that on but they're kind of able to put that on the back burner and occupy at least for the back burner and occupy at least for the back burner and occupy at least for a time a time a time this other state of being where it's this other state of being where it's this other state of being where it's just just just can I see the world through this can I see the world through this can I see the world through this person's eyes? What what would that look person's eyes? What what would that look person's eyes? What what would that look like?

like? like? Um and Um and Um and I I think becoming a journalist made me I I think becoming a journalist made me I I think becoming a journalist made me much better at that where when I'm much better at that where when I'm much better at that where when I'm writing about something, I leave all my writing about something, I leave all my writing about something, I leave all my personal baggage at the door. And I'm personal baggage at the door. And I'm personal baggage at the door. And I'm like, what is this person's world view? like, what is this person's world view? like, what is this person's world view? What led them to this belief or to this What led them to this belief or to this What led them to this belief or to this line of work? And I I don't care what my line of work? And I I don't care what my line of work? And I I don't care what my judgment about those things are at all. judgment about those things are at all. judgment about those things are at all. I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand. And I I think that can be hard, And I I think that can be hard, And I I think that can be hard, especially if you're interacting with especially if you're interacting with especially if you're interacting with someone who has diametrically opposed someone who has diametrically opposed someone who has diametrically opposed views about the world as you do. views about the world as you do. views about the world as you do. But it's actually quite fun and But it's actually quite fun and But it's actually quite fun and illuminating to kind of put yourself illuminating to kind of put yourself illuminating to kind of put yourself aside and just come with the approach of aside and just come with the approach of aside and just come with the approach of uh uh uh what would one's worldview have to be to what would one's worldview have to be to what would one's worldview have to be to to be in the because to be in the because to be in the because I think this goes along with I think this goes along with I think this goes along with uh not an ability, but like uh not an ability, but like uh not an ability, but like a reticence to say this person's crazy a reticence to say this person's crazy a reticence to say this person's crazy and instead to approach and say and instead to approach and say and instead to approach and say what would the worldview be that would what would the worldview be that would what would the worldview be that would produce this person's beliefs and and produce this person's beliefs and and produce this person's beliefs and and let me try those on for a minute to to let me try those on for a minute to to let me try those on for a minute to to kind of get outside of yourself. Not kind of get outside of yourself. Not kind of get outside of yourself. Not only and then and then it can actually only and then and then it can actually only and then and then it can actually be fun. I I actually quite enjoy that, be fun. I I actually quite enjoy that, be fun. I I actually quite enjoy that, you know, really interacting with people you know, really interacting with people you know, really interacting with people who who who have some belief or when they tell me have some belief or when they tell me have some belief or when they tell me I'm like, "Gosh, that's that's so I'm like, "Gosh, that's that's so I'm like, "Gosh, that's that's so surprising because I see it totally surprising because I see it totally surprising because I see it totally differently. Like now we're going to differently. Like now we're going to differently. Like now we're going to have an interesting conversation."

have an interesting conversation." have an interesting conversation." >> Yeah, that is amazing when you meet >> Yeah, that is amazing when you meet >> Yeah, that is amazing when you meet somebody who really has diametrically somebody who really has diametrically somebody who really has diametrically opposed views. And opposed views. And opposed views. And I think one of the best like, you know, I think one of the best like, you know, I think one of the best like, you know, being trained as a lawyer originally being trained as a lawyer originally being trained as a lawyer originally one of the best ways to win in court is one of the best ways to win in court is one of the best ways to win in court is to fully understand the position of your to fully understand the position of your to fully understand the position of your opponent. opponent. opponent. I mean, if you can just understand that I mean, if you can just understand that I mean, if you can just understand that this is a reasonable case being made this is a reasonable case being made this is a reasonable case being made um and not like it's ridiculous and this um and not like it's ridiculous and this um and not like it's ridiculous and this person doesn't understand anything. But person doesn't understand anything. But person doesn't understand anything. But if you can really embrace that and, you if you can really embrace that and, you if you can really embrace that and, you know, set up the steel man, so to speak, know, set up the steel man, so to speak, know, set up the steel man, so to speak, not the straw man. not the straw man. not the straw man. And then show why perhaps that's not And then show why perhaps that's not And then show why perhaps that's not persuasive. You're probably going to win persuasive. You're probably going to win persuasive. You're probably going to win a lot more cases, but that involves a a lot more cases, but that involves a a lot more cases, but that involves a lot of empathy. And I think the same is lot of empathy. And I think the same is lot of empathy. And I think the same is true in preaching. If you can really true in preaching. If you can really true in preaching. If you can really understand an atheistic mind or a understand an atheistic mind or a understand an atheistic mind or a skeptical mind rather than ridiculing it skeptical mind rather than ridiculing it skeptical mind rather than ridiculing it and say, "Oh, no, like reasonable people and say, "Oh, no, like reasonable people and say, "Oh, no, like reasonable people actually believe this and here's why actually believe this and here's why actually believe this and here's why they believe it. they believe it. they believe it. And yet I have another view and here's And yet I have another view and here's And yet I have another view and here's why it's persuasive to me." I think why it's persuasive to me." I think why it's persuasive to me." I think that's much more winsome down the road that's much more winsome down the road that's much more winsome down the road than than than just well, what we have right now in just well, what we have right now in just well, what we have right now in public dialogue, which is the opposite.

public dialogue, which is the opposite. public dialogue, which is the opposite. >> No, I I totally agree and I think you >> No, I I totally agree and I think you >> No, I I totally agree and I think you put it really well. Like people put it really well. Like people put it really well. Like people and and hit something that I should have and and hit something that I should have and and hit something that I should have articulated better, which is I my articulated better, which is I my articulated better, which is I my approach is that approach is that approach is that people are reasonable in some sense. people are reasonable in some sense. people are reasonable in some sense. They they believe things for a reason. They they believe things for a reason. They they believe things for a reason. Those those reasons may not be my Those those reasons may not be my Those those reasons may not be my reasons or beliefs, reasons or beliefs, reasons or beliefs, but there is a reason. but there is a reason. but there is a reason. And spending time trying to understand And spending time trying to understand And spending time trying to understand what that is, I think him can be really what that is, I think him can be really what that is, I think him can be really illuminating for for both of you really illuminating for for both of you really illuminating for for both of you really if you're interacting with someone if you're interacting with someone if you're interacting with someone directly. directly. directly. >> So, speaking of Malcolm Gladwell, you've >> So, speaking of Malcolm Gladwell, you've >> So, speaking of Malcolm Gladwell, you've spent the last few years challenging spent the last few years challenging spent the last few years challenging some widely held beliefs including some widely held beliefs including some widely held beliefs including someone I disagree with. someone I disagree with. someone I disagree with. Yeah, was that your debate when you when Yeah, was that your debate when you when Yeah, was that your debate when you when you met him? You were debating the you met him? You were debating the you met him? You were debating the 10,000 hour hour rule? 10,000 hour hour rule? 10,000 hour hour rule? >> That's right. Yeah, so the first time we >> That's right. Yeah, so the first time we >> That's right. Yeah, so the first time we ever met was for a debate at this thing ever met was for a debate at this thing ever met was for a debate at this thing called the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics called the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics called the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. Conference. Conference. Um, and it's like the biggest Um, and it's like the biggest Um, and it's like the biggest uh sports data conference and uh sports data conference and uh sports data conference and we were specifically invited to debate we were specifically invited to debate we were specifically invited to debate athletic development as a sports athletic development as a sports athletic development as a sports conference. And conference. And conference. And um um um it was we had never met before. Now it was we had never met before. Now it was we had never met before. Now obviously, he's a very clever guy, so I obviously, he's a very clever guy, so I obviously, he's a very clever guy, so I was worried about getting embarrassed on was worried about getting embarrassed on was worried about getting embarrassed on stage, but stage, but stage, but uh basically, I shared some data in that uh basically, I shared some data in that uh basically, I shared some data in that debate showing that future lead athletes debate showing that future lead athletes debate showing that future lead athletes actually more often actually more often actually more often delay specialization compared to their delay specialization compared to their delay specialization compared to their peers and go through what's called a peers and go through what's called a peers and go through what's called a sampling period where they try a variety sampling period where they try a variety sampling period where they try a variety of activities of activities of activities uh and learn these broad general skills uh and learn these broad general skills uh and learn these broad general skills now called physical literacy before they now called physical literacy before they now called physical literacy before they and they learn about their own interests and they learn about their own interests and they learn about their own interests and abilities before they settle down.

and abilities before they settle down. and abilities before they settle down. And when we were coming off stage, he And when we were coming off stage, he And when we were coming off stage, he said, said, said, "You got me on that. That data is "You got me on that. That data is "You got me on that. That data is actually does not fit with what I actually does not fit with what I actually does not fit with what I thought. Do you want to run back when thought. Do you want to run back when thought. Do you want to run back when we're both in New York tomorrow?" Cuz we're both in New York tomorrow?" Cuz we're both in New York tomorrow?" Cuz this was in Boston. "Do you want to run this was in Boston. "Do you want to run this was in Boston. "Do you want to run together tomorrow and talk about it together tomorrow and talk about it together tomorrow and talk about it more?" And that led us running almost more?" And that led us running almost more?" And that led us running almost every weekend together for the next every weekend together for the next every weekend together for the next several years and debating these things several years and debating these things several years and debating these things on our own time and on our own time and on our own time and we actually were invited back to the we actually were invited back to the we actually were invited back to the same conference 5 years later same conference 5 years later same conference 5 years later and talked how our minds had changed at and talked how our minds had changed at and talked how our minds had changed at this time as friends. this time as friends. this time as friends. Um and now we're pretty much actually on Um and now we're pretty much actually on Um and now we're pretty much actually on the same page. So, that there's videos the same page. So, that there's videos the same page. So, that there's videos of both of these on YouTube and he he of both of these on YouTube and he he of both of these on YouTube and he he talks about how his mind has changed and talks about how his mind has changed and talks about how his mind has changed and things like that. things like that. things like that. >> hour rule which he popularized, was that >> hour rule which he popularized, was that >> hour rule which he popularized, was that what was that? Was that the tipping what was that? Was that the tipping what was that? Was that the tipping point? What was point? What was point? What was >> It was Outliers. It was Outliers. >> It was Outliers. It was Outliers. >> It was Outliers. It was Outliers. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> So So, to clarify, I don't want to say >> So So, to clarify, I don't want to say >> So So, to clarify, I don't want to say he abandoned what he what he said when he abandoned what he what he said when he abandoned what he what he said when we met 5 years later was we met 5 years later was we met 5 years later was um I I think I made an error of um I I think I made an error of um I I think I made an error of conflation basically. That the idea that conflation basically. That the idea that conflation basically. That the idea that you need a lot of practice to become you need a lot of practice to become you need a lot of practice to become great, which is true, great, which is true, great, which is true, and I conflated that with the idea that and I conflated that with the idea that and I conflated that with the idea that you have to specialize as early and you have to specialize as early and you have to specialize as early and narrowly as possible, which I now think narrowly as possible, which I now think narrowly as possible, which I now think is false.

is false. is false. >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, >> Hey, before we get back to the podcast, a quick personal note that I'm actually a quick personal note that I'm actually a quick personal note that I'm actually really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September 15th. 15th. 15th. It's called AI in the future church, It's called AI in the future church, It's called AI in the future church, make your ministry irreplaceable in a make your ministry irreplaceable in a make your ministry irreplaceable in a world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I want to tell you about why I wrote it. want to tell you about why I wrote it. want to tell you about why I wrote it. So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So, I've been in an AI rabbit hole for the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I believe believe believe that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running toward exactly what the church offers. toward exactly what the church offers. toward exactly what the church offers. Real community, unchanging truth, Real community, unchanging truth, Real community, unchanging truth, connection that means something. And connection that means something. And connection that means something. And here's why. A world growing more here's why. A world growing more here's why. A world growing more artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And the church has been answering the the church has been answering the the church has been answering the question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make now today to be prepared for the future now today to be prepared for the future now today to be prepared for the future no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for you to be is open now, and I'd love for you to be is open now, and I'd love for you to be among the very first to read it. So, you among the very first to read it. So, you among the very first to read it. So, you can learn more at kerryneuhoff.com/ai can learn more at kerryneuhoff.com/ai can learn more at kerryneuhoff.com/ai or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or

church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get your books. Both links wherever you get your books. Both links wherever you get your books. Both links are in the show notes, so pre-order your are in the show notes, so pre-order your are in the show notes, so pre-order your copy today, and you'll be set to receive copy today, and you'll be set to receive copy today, and you'll be set to receive your copy immediately after it releases your copy immediately after it releases your copy immediately after it releases on September 15th, plus get some pretty on September 15th, plus get some pretty on September 15th, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. This episode is brought to cool bonuses. This episode is brought to cool bonuses. This episode is brought to you by Ministry Brands. So, if you lead you by Ministry Brands. So, if you lead you by Ministry Brands. So, if you lead a church, one of the biggest questions a church, one of the biggest questions a church, one of the biggest questions right now is, "How is giving changing, right now is, "How is giving changing, right now is, "How is giving changing, and what should we be paying attention and what should we be paying attention and what should we be paying attention to heading into the second part of to heading into the second part of to heading into the second part of 2026?" And that's why I want to tell you 2026?" And that's why I want to tell you 2026?" And that's why I want to tell you about the new 2026 Annual Church Giving about the new 2026 Annual Church Giving about the new 2026 Annual Church Giving Report from Ministry Brands. It's a free Report from Ministry Brands. It's a free Report from Ministry Brands. It's a free report, and it breaks down the latest report, and it breaks down the latest report, and it breaks down the latest trends in church generosity, digital trends in church generosity, digital trends in church generosity, digital giving, donor behavior, and financial giving, donor behavior, and financial giving, donor behavior, and financial engagement, all designed to help church engagement, all designed to help church engagement, all designed to help church leaders make smarter decisions in a leaders make smarter decisions in a leaders make smarter decisions in a changing ministry landscape. So, whether changing ministry landscape. So, whether changing ministry landscape. So, whether you're a lead pastor, executive pastor, you're a lead pastor, executive pastor, you're a lead pastor, executive pastor, finance leader, or part of a ministry finance leader, or part of a ministry finance leader, or part of a ministry team, this report offers real, practical team, this report offers real, practical team, this report offers real, practical insights backed by actual church data. insights backed by actual church data. insights backed by actual church data. You can download your free copy today at You can download your free copy today at You can download your free copy today at ministrybrands.com/kerry.

ministrybrands.com/kerry. ministrybrands.com/kerry. That's ministrybrands.com/kerry. That's ministrybrands.com/kerry. That's ministrybrands.com/kerry. So, two things on that. I want to go So, two things on that. I want to go So, two things on that. I want to go deeper on the idea, but I I want to live deeper on the idea, but I I want to live deeper on the idea, but I I want to live in a world where two people can debate in a world where two people can debate in a world where two people can debate each other, each other, each other, disagree. disagree. disagree. You basically You basically You basically refuted him in public, and he agreed refuted him in public, and he agreed refuted him in public, and he agreed with you. with you. with you. And then you went running the next day. And then you went running the next day. And then you went running the next day. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he Well, also, he really became a really he Well, also, he really became a really he Well, also, he really became a really good role model for me in that sense, good role model for me in that sense, good role model for me in that sense, because I asked him at some point after because I asked him at some point after because I asked him at some point after that, you know, I said, "I didn't have that, you know, I said, "I didn't have that, you know, I said, "I didn't have that much professional capital like he that much professional capital like he that much professional capital like he did at the time." So, he really could did at the time." So, he really could did at the time." So, he really could have just have just have just tried to squash me, but that's not the tried to squash me, but that's not the tried to squash me, but that's not the approach he took. approach he took. approach he took. And so, I asked him about that at one And so, I asked him about that at one And so, I asked him about that at one point. He said, "Well, I have the luxury point. He said, "Well, I have the luxury point. He said, "Well, I have the luxury of learning from my critics." And that of learning from my critics." And that of learning from my critics." And that just always stuck in my mind when he just always stuck in my mind when he just always stuck in my mind when he said that. He wasn't giving me advice, said that. He wasn't giving me advice, said that. He wasn't giving me advice, but it did become in some way some of but it did become in some way some of but it did become in some way some of the best career advice I've ever gotten the best career advice I've ever gotten the best career advice I've ever gotten where now when I have an earnest critic, where now when I have an earnest critic, where now when I have an earnest critic, you know, not someone who's just yelling you know, not someone who's just yelling you know, not someone who's just yelling at me on the internet or something, but at me on the internet or something, but at me on the internet or something, but if they have an earnest criticism, if they have an earnest criticism, if they have an earnest criticism, I remind myself I have the luxury of I remind myself I have the luxury of I remind myself I have the luxury of learning from this and and getting learning from this and and getting learning from this and and getting better and trying to understand. And I better and trying to understand. And I better and trying to understand. And I think he modeled that think he modeled that think he modeled that with our interactions in a way that it with our interactions in a way that it with our interactions in a way that it just made me better.

just made me better. just made me better. Um and subsequently other people who I Um and subsequently other people who I Um and subsequently other people who I had disagreements with, like Angela had disagreements with, like Angela had disagreements with, like Angela Duckworth, who's a great researcher, um Duckworth, who's a great researcher, um Duckworth, who's a great researcher, um also became one of my favorite people in also became one of my favorite people in also became one of my favorite people in the world to talk to. And so, I've had the world to talk to. And so, I've had the world to talk to. And so, I've had these really generative relationships these really generative relationships these really generative relationships that started in disagreement. that started in disagreement. that started in disagreement. >> Hm. Okay. Preachers, pastors, church >> Hm. Okay. Preachers, pastors, church >> Hm. Okay. Preachers, pastors, church leaders, leaders, leaders, get out your notebooks. We need more of get out your notebooks. We need more of get out your notebooks. We need more of that. We We need more of that in our that. We We need more of that in our that. We We need more of that in our space, for sure. So, on the whole idea space, for sure. So, on the whole idea space, for sure. So, on the whole idea of specialization, because that was sort of specialization, because that was sort of specialization, because that was sort of the big idea behind Range, of the big idea behind Range, of the big idea behind Range, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> not your current book, but your uh was >> not your current book, but your uh was >> not your current book, but your uh was it your last one? it your last one? it your last one? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Right. Is this idea that that if we get >> Right. Is this idea that that if we get >> Right. Is this idea that that if we get our kids to put their blinders on and our kids to put their blinders on and our kids to put their blinders on and just like, okay, you're going to, you just like, okay, you're going to, you just like, okay, you're going to, you know, know, know, play Major League Football, or you're play Major League Football, or you're play Major League Football, or you're going to, you know, National Football going to, you know, National Football going to, you know, National Football League, you're going to play Major League, you're going to play Major League, you're going to play Major League Baseball, you're going to be League Baseball, you're going to be League Baseball, you're going to be whatever, you're going to be a a doctor, whatever, you're going to be a a doctor, whatever, you're going to be a a doctor, a lawyer, or what, and we push them, a lawyer, or what, and we push them, a lawyer, or what, and we push them, that some of the people who have made that some of the people who have made that some of the people who have made the greatest contribution are people who the greatest contribution are people who the greatest contribution are people who actually had a broad range of actually had a broad range of actually had a broad range of experiences early on and exposed experiences early on and exposed experiences early on and exposed themselves to a lot of different themselves to a lot of different themselves to a lot of different disciplines. Can you just unpack that disciplines. Can you just unpack that disciplines. Can you just unpack that idea for us because I think it's a idea for us because I think it's a idea for us because I think it's a really fascinating idea in an era of really fascinating idea in an era of really fascinating idea in an era of specialization?

specialization? specialization? >> Yeah, you just you described it well, >> Yeah, you just you described it well, >> Yeah, you just you described it well, and I think the part of the argument I and I think the part of the argument I and I think the part of the argument I make is that make is that make is that um um um in a world that's changing more rapidly, in a world that's changing more rapidly, in a world that's changing more rapidly, it's people with this broad toolbox that it's people with this broad toolbox that it's people with this broad toolbox that are set up for longer-term success where are set up for longer-term success where are set up for longer-term success where they delay what they focus on, they get they delay what they focus on, they get they delay what they focus on, they get a broad range of experiences, they a broad range of experiences, they a broad range of experiences, they broaden their network, they broaden broaden their network, they broaden broaden their network, they broaden their skills, they broaden their their skills, they broaden their their skills, they broaden their understanding of themselves before they understanding of themselves before they understanding of themselves before they pick, which ends up giving them higher, pick, which ends up giving them higher, pick, which ends up giving them higher, what's called match quality, which is what's called match quality, which is what's called match quality, which is the degree of fit between what they do the degree of fit between what they do the degree of fit between what they do and who they are. and who they are. and who they are. And those people end up not only getting And those people end up not only getting And those people end up not only getting in a better spot in a better spot in a better spot uh for what they're going to do, but uh for what they're going to do, but uh for what they're going to do, but also they're more resistant to also they're more resistant to also they're more resistant to both psychological and physical injury, both psychological and physical injury, both psychological and physical injury, um and they seem to have kind of more um and they seem to have kind of more um and they seem to have kind of more models of thinking that they can apply models of thinking that they can apply models of thinking that they can apply to to whatever problems they're facing. to to whatever problems they're facing. to to whatever problems they're facing. And this was actually this is this was And this was actually this is this was And this was actually this is this was happened way too recently to have gotten happened way too recently to have gotten happened way too recently to have gotten into Range, cuz Range came out in 2019, into Range, cuz Range came out in 2019, into Range, cuz Range came out in 2019, but there was just this paper but there was just this paper but there was just this paper in the journal Science, in the journal Science, in the journal Science, which is, you know, one of the two most which is, you know, one of the two most which is, you know, one of the two most prestigious journals in the world, um prestigious journals in the world, um prestigious journals in the world, um probably, and probably, and probably, and it looked at about 30,000 different it looked at about 30,000 different it looked at about 30,000 different uh uh uh musicians, scientists, musicians, scientists, musicians, scientists, athletes, chess players.

athletes, chess players. athletes, chess players. And they found this what they found was And they found this what they found was And they found this what they found was that the best youth performers that the best youth performers that the best youth performers were basically never the same people as were basically never the same people as were basically never the same people as the best adult performers. the best adult performers. the best adult performers. And in fact, some of the predictors of And in fact, some of the predictors of And in fact, some of the predictors of elite youth performance elite youth performance elite youth performance were negative predictors of elite adult were negative predictors of elite adult were negative predictors of elite adult performance, such as early performance, such as early performance, such as early specialization and and, you know, not specialization and and, you know, not specialization and and, you know, not doing other activities. So, in the doing other activities. So, in the doing other activities. So, in the scientists, interestingly, the the scientists, interestingly, the the scientists, interestingly, the the future Nobel laureates future Nobel laureates future Nobel laureates progressed more slowly earlier in their progressed more slowly earlier in their progressed more slowly earlier in their careers than did their peers. So, slower careers than did their peers. So, slower careers than did their peers. So, slower to get a professorship, to get tenure, to get a professorship, to get tenure, to get a professorship, to get tenure, to publish as many papers, because they to publish as many papers, because they to publish as many papers, because they were more interdisciplinary. So, they're were more interdisciplinary. So, they're were more interdisciplinary. So, they're building up this broad base, which they building up this broad base, which they building up this broad base, which they kind of get punished for early on, but kind of get punished for early on, but kind of get punished for early on, but then it turns into this huge power later then it turns into this huge power later then it turns into this huge power later on. And that to me on. And that to me on. And that to me is sort of is sort of is sort of uh dovetails with the theme that's uh dovetails with the theme that's uh dovetails with the theme that's behind every page of Range, but that behind every page of Range, but that behind every page of Range, but that would have been a terrible unmarketable would have been a terrible unmarketable would have been a terrible unmarketable subtitle, which is that sometimes subtitle, which is that sometimes subtitle, which is that sometimes optimizing for the short term will optimizing for the short term will optimizing for the short term will actually undermine your long-term actually undermine your long-term actually undermine your long-term development. So that that head start development. So that that head start development. So that that head start sometimes sometimes sometimes is is an illusion of is is an illusion of is is an illusion of you know of of something that will keep you know of of something that will keep you know of of something that will keep you ahead in the long-term basically.

you ahead in the long-term basically. you ahead in the long-term basically. >> You said something really interesting. >> You said something really interesting. >> You said something really interesting. You said it impacts their psychological You said it impacts their psychological You said it impacts their psychological and physical resilience or performance. and physical resilience or performance. and physical resilience or performance. Psychological totally get it. They got a Psychological totally get it. They got a Psychological totally get it. They got a broad range but how does that actually broad range but how does that actually broad range but how does that actually impact impact impact physical health? physical health? physical health? >> Yeah, it's really interesting. The why >> Yeah, it's really interesting. The why >> Yeah, it's really interesting. The why of how this works is is still not of how this works is is still not of how this works is is still not totally known but for example totally known but for example totally known but for example when I was writing range I spent some when I was writing range I spent some when I was writing range I spent some time with Cirque du Soleil and time with Cirque du Soleil and time with Cirque du Soleil and they have incredible physiology data. they have incredible physiology data. they have incredible physiology data. You know they have biometric vests on You know they have biometric vests on You know they have biometric vests on performers and I have former Olympians performers and I have former Olympians performers and I have former Olympians doing tons of performances doing tons of performances doing tons of performances and they were following this research and they were following this research and they were following this research that was starting to suggest that that was starting to suggest that that was starting to suggest that diversifying your movement patterns diversifying your movement patterns diversifying your movement patterns would make you much more resistant to would make you much more resistant to would make you much more resistant to injury. That it was less about doing injury. That it was less about doing injury. That it was less about doing just less and more about diversifying just less and more about diversifying just less and more about diversifying what you were doing. So so they had what you were doing. So so they had what you were doing. So so they had their performers start learning the their performers start learning the their performers start learning the basics of three other performers skills. basics of three other performers skills. basics of three other performers skills. Not because they were going to perform Not because they were going to perform Not because they were going to perform those things but to see if they could those things but to see if they could those things but to see if they could reduce their injury rates and they found reduce their injury rates and they found reduce their injury rates and they found it reduced their injury rates by a it reduced their injury rates by a it reduced their injury rates by a third. Which is a huge decrease.

third. Which is a huge decrease. third. Which is a huge decrease. And meanwhile at the same time there was And meanwhile at the same time there was And meanwhile at the same time there was this tracking study going on of youth this tracking study going on of youth this tracking study going on of youth athletes that was looking at what are athletes that was looking at what are athletes that was looking at what are now called adult style overuse injury. now called adult style overuse injury. now called adult style overuse injury. So things that will So things that will So things that will maybe stay with someone for life in some maybe stay with someone for life in some maybe stay with someone for life in some way or another. Um way or another. Um way or another. Um and the best predictor tracked youth and the best predictor tracked youth and the best predictor tracked youth athletes for four years. The best athletes for four years. The best athletes for four years. The best predictor of suffering one of those predictor of suffering one of those predictor of suffering one of those kinds of injuries was at least nine kinds of injuries was at least nine kinds of injuries was at least nine months a year of one sport and no other months a year of one sport and no other months a year of one sport and no other sports. sports. sports. So even if you added volume but it was So even if you added volume but it was So even if you added volume but it was diversified it had this protective diversified it had this protective diversified it had this protective effect. And there are a lot of theories effect. And there are a lot of theories effect. And there are a lot of theories of why this is and a lot of them make of why this is and a lot of them make of why this is and a lot of them make sense about sense about sense about you know you know you know improving your support muscles and your improving your support muscles and your improving your support muscles and your your your general sort of physical sense your your general sort of physical sense your your general sort of physical sense of balance. I don't think anybody knows of balance. I don't think anybody knows of balance. I don't think anybody knows for sure why all those things make sense for sure why all those things make sense for sure why all those things make sense but it shows up in the empirical but it shows up in the empirical but it shows up in the empirical results. results. results. >> Well, I want to get into range. I I >> Well, I want to get into range. I I >> Well, I want to get into range. I I think that's uh or sorry, I want to get think that's uh or sorry, I want to get think that's uh or sorry, I want to get into inside the box. But, while we're into inside the box. But, while we're into inside the box. But, while we're still on this topic of having a range of still on this topic of having a range of still on this topic of having a range of activities, my experience and a lot of activities, my experience and a lot of activities, my experience and a lot of listeners will probably resonate with listeners will probably resonate with listeners will probably resonate with this, you know, churches have a big this, you know, churches have a big this, you know, churches have a big staffing issue right now. And the staffing issue right now. And the staffing issue right now. And the biggest problem is seminaries are not biggest problem is seminaries are not biggest problem is seminaries are not producing producing producing the right candidates, enough candidates, the right candidates, enough candidates, the right candidates, enough candidates, next gen candidates. So, a lot of next gen candidates. So, a lot of next gen candidates. So, a lot of growing churches have gotten into hiring growing churches have gotten into hiring growing churches have gotten into hiring from the marketplace. I would say from from the marketplace. I would say from from the marketplace. I would say from where I sit, cuz I did a lot of hiring where I sit, cuz I did a lot of hiring where I sit, cuz I did a lot of hiring from the marketplace, too, from the marketplace, too, from the marketplace, too, marketplace leaders or people who've had marketplace leaders or people who've had marketplace leaders or people who've had more varied experience before they join more varied experience before they join more varied experience before they join a church staff a church staff a church staff tend to end up being your best staff tend to end up being your best staff tend to end up being your best staff people. Like, I had 5 years in law people. Like, I had 5 years in law people. Like, I had 5 years in law before I went into ministry. So, by the

before I went into ministry. So, by the before I went into ministry. So, by the time I finally finished seminary, I was time I finally finished seminary, I was time I finally finished seminary, I was 30 cuz I had half a decade of law 30 cuz I had half a decade of law 30 cuz I had half a decade of law in me. I think it made me a better in me. I think it made me a better in me. I think it made me a better pastor. And I've hired people with pastor. And I've hired people with pastor. And I've hired people with business experience, creative business experience, creative business experience, creative experience, musicians who came off the experience, musicians who came off the experience, musicians who came off the road to be heads of creative, someone road to be heads of creative, someone road to be heads of creative, someone with an audio engineering degree and with an audio engineering degree and with an audio engineering degree and background who ran all of our visual and background who ran all of our visual and background who ran all of our visual and audio creatives. And I found often when audio creatives. And I found often when audio creatives. And I found often when when you hire people with when you hire people with when you hire people with not necessarily the trained background, not necessarily the trained background, not necessarily the trained background, that they end up performing really, that they end up performing really, that they end up performing really, really well. Comments, thoughts on that? really well. Comments, thoughts on that? really well. Comments, thoughts on that? What What are you seeing? Or how does What What are you seeing? Or how does What What are you seeing? Or how does that strike you? that strike you? that strike you? >> First of all, I think it resonates with >> First of all, I think it resonates with >> First of all, I think it resonates with what I see in my own profession, where what I see in my own profession, where what I see in my own profession, where right I had this oddball science right I had this oddball science right I had this oddball science background and it ended up being the background and it ended up being the background and it ended up being the thing that made me special in thing that made me special in thing that made me special in journalism. Where where it was very journalism. Where where it was very journalism. Where where it was very average, very typical in the scientific average, very typical in the scientific average, very typical in the scientific milieu, then you bring it over somewhere milieu, then you bring it over somewhere milieu, then you bring it over somewhere else and like a sports magazine and and else and like a sports magazine and and else and like a sports magazine and and suddenly you really add this tremendous suddenly you really add this tremendous suddenly you really add this tremendous value because it's so rare. value because it's so rare. value because it's so rare. But, also I think it it makes sense from But, also I think it it makes sense from But, also I think it it makes sense from the standpoint of the standpoint of the standpoint of you know, as a as a church leader, you know, as a as a church leader, you know, as a as a church leader, you're involved in you're involved in you're involved in cultivating people's minds and cultivating people's minds and cultivating people's minds and cultivating people's souls and cultivating people's souls and cultivating people's souls and the idea the idea the idea that having been out in the world and that having been out in the world and that having been out in the world and and gathering up these diverse and gathering up these diverse and gathering up these diverse experiences and and understanding a experiences and and understanding a experiences and and understanding a broad array of things that people broad array of things that people broad array of things that people struggle with struggle with struggle with wouldn't make you more powerful and wouldn't make you more powerful and wouldn't make you more powerful and capable in that way.

capable in that way. capable in that way. And that you should rush into the And that you should rush into the And that you should rush into the practice itself instead of getting this practice itself instead of getting this practice itself instead of getting this larger swath of life into your larger swath of life into your larger swath of life into your repertoire. I just think that makes a repertoire. I just think that makes a repertoire. I just think that makes a ton of sense for ton of sense for ton of sense for uh uh uh kind of kind of kind of building your wisdom in in a sense and building your wisdom in in a sense and building your wisdom in in a sense and and just the broadening your perspective and just the broadening your perspective and just the broadening your perspective cuz cuz cuz I mean when I think about I mean when I think about I mean when I think about somebody who's leading in a religious somebody who's leading in a religious somebody who's leading in a religious community community community if they're going to do a good job they if they're going to do a good job they if they're going to do a good job they have to have a pretty broad perspective. have to have a pretty broad perspective. have to have a pretty broad perspective. Like people come to them with a lot of Like people come to them with a lot of Like people come to them with a lot of different things from a lot of different different things from a lot of different different things from a lot of different walks of life. And so I think the walks of life. And so I think the walks of life. And so I think the broader their horizons can be sort of broader their horizons can be sort of broader their horizons can be sort of the more chance they have them imparting the more chance they have them imparting the more chance they have them imparting wisdom that makes a difference for wisdom that makes a difference for wisdom that makes a difference for somebody. This episode is brought to you somebody. This episode is brought to you somebody. This episode is brought to you by Livestone Ministries. If you lead a by Livestone Ministries. If you lead a by Livestone Ministries. If you lead a church, you know how challenging it can church, you know how challenging it can church, you know how challenging it can be to find an adult Sunday school be to find an adult Sunday school be to find an adult Sunday school curriculum that your teachers will curriculum that your teachers will curriculum that your teachers will actually use week after week year after actually use week after week year after actually use week after week year after year. I want to tell you about something year. I want to tell you about something year. I want to tell you about something that's been serving churches for over that's been serving churches for over that's been serving churches for over 120 years. It's the quarterly Bible 120 years. It's the quarterly Bible 120 years. It's the quarterly Bible curriculum from Livestone Ministries. curriculum from Livestone Ministries. curriculum from Livestone Ministries. You can find it at You can find it at You can find it at livestoneministries.org/ carry. The adult Bible class is a carry. The adult Bible class is a quarterly verse-by-verse theologically quarterly verse-by-verse theologically quarterly verse-by-verse theologically sound resource that gives your teachers sound resource that gives your teachers sound resource that gives your teachers and adult students everything they need and adult students everything they need and adult students everything they need to lead with confidence every single to lead with confidence every single to lead with confidence every single week. And if your congregation includes week. And if your congregation includes week. And if your congregation includes readers who benefit from larger text, readers who benefit from larger text, readers who benefit from larger text, it's available in large print, too. For it's available in large print, too. For it's available in large print, too. For teachers who want to go even deeper, teachers who want to go even deeper, teachers who want to go even deeper, there's adult Bible teacher, packed with there's adult Bible teacher, packed with there's adult Bible teacher, packed with exposition, discussion questions, and exposition, discussion questions, and exposition, discussion questions, and practical lessons that really help your

practical lessons that really help your practical lessons that really help your leaders get prepared. These aren't leaders get prepared. These aren't leaders get prepared. These aren't trendy resources that disappear in a trendy resources that disappear in a trendy resources that disappear in a year. They're a trusted, proven year. They're a trusted, proven year. They're a trusted, proven curriculum that more than 10,000 curriculum that more than 10,000 curriculum that more than 10,000 students, teachers, and churches rely on students, teachers, and churches rely on students, teachers, and churches rely on every single quarter. Visit every single quarter. Visit every single quarter. Visit lifestoneministries.org/carey, lifestoneministries.org/carey, lifestoneministries.org/carey, that's to order and learn more. to order and learn more. >> Yeah, I know for me when I was 24 and >> Yeah, I know for me when I was 24 and >> Yeah, I know for me when I was 24 and felt the call to minister, I'm like, felt the call to minister, I'm like, felt the call to minister, I'm like, okay, got to go get a day job somewhere. okay, got to go get a day job somewhere. okay, got to go get a day job somewhere. Because I got to learn what it's like to Because I got to learn what it's like to Because I got to learn what it's like to sit in a pew or sit in a chair on Sunday sit in a pew or sit in a chair on Sunday sit in a pew or sit in a chair on Sunday morning. morning. morning. And I can empathize. Yeah, I had to make And I can empathize. Yeah, I had to make And I can empathize. Yeah, I had to make a paycheck. Things didn't go well at a paycheck. Things didn't go well at a paycheck. Things didn't go well at work, you know, these were the work, you know, these were the work, you know, these were the challenges at home and and I'm really challenges at home and and I'm really challenges at home and and I'm really glad I did. I still draw on that wide glad I did. I still draw on that wide glad I did. I still draw on that wide range of experiences in my 20s to this range of experiences in my 20s to this range of experiences in my 20s to this day. day. day. >> You know, you know, you just made me >> You know, you know, you just made me >> You know, you know, you just made me think of something else, which is I'm think of something else, which is I'm think of something else, which is I'm surprised I didn't think about it surprised I didn't think about it surprised I didn't think about it before, but actually for one of the before, but actually for one of the before, but actually for one of the chapters in Inside the Box, I spent a chapters in Inside the Box, I spent a chapters in Inside the Box, I spent a lot of time reading, especially mid-20th lot of time reading, especially mid-20th lot of time reading, especially mid-20th century sermons.

century sermons. century sermons. Um and and Um and and Um and and two of the of the preachers who blew me two of the of the preachers who blew me two of the of the preachers who blew me away were uh away were uh away were uh Harry Emerson Fosdick and J. Wallace Harry Emerson Fosdick and J. Wallace Harry Emerson Fosdick and J. Wallace Hamilton. And Hamilton. And Hamilton. And these guys, like if TED Talks were these guys, like if TED Talks were these guys, like if TED Talks were around, they would have just knocked around, they would have just knocked around, they would have just knocked them out of the park. I mean, they were them out of the park. I mean, they were them out of the park. I mean, they were not only their communication skill, but not only their communication skill, but not only their communication skill, but the amount of stuff that they would draw the amount of stuff that they would draw the amount of stuff that they would draw into their sermons, into their sermons, into their sermons, you know, classical literature, ancient you know, classical literature, ancient you know, classical literature, ancient philosophy, new scientific findings. I philosophy, new scientific findings. I philosophy, new scientific findings. I mean, mean, mean, just I was reading this stuff, I'm lit just I was reading this stuff, I'm lit just I was reading this stuff, I'm lit on fire, you know, because they they on fire, you know, because they they on fire, you know, because they they could draw in so many different you could draw in so many different you could draw in so many different you know, and of course it would be grounded know, and of course it would be grounded know, and of course it would be grounded in in in biblical lessons in many cases, but then biblical lessons in many cases, but then biblical lessons in many cases, but then they would they could connect all these they would they could connect all these they would they could connect all these other parts of life other parts of life other parts of life to those lessons that would make it feel to those lessons that would make it feel to those lessons that would make it feel relevant today and make it feel like relevant today and make it feel like relevant today and make it feel like part of a historical continuum. And I part of a historical continuum. And I part of a historical continuum. And I just found that to be such an incredibly just found that to be such an incredibly just found that to be such an incredibly effective effective effective way to communicate and it was clear that way to communicate and it was clear that way to communicate and it was clear that they just read and experienced really, they just read and experienced really, they just read and experienced really, really widely so they could pull in all really widely so they could pull in all really widely so they could pull in all these different threads and and and make these different threads and and and make these different threads and and and make um um um uh uh uh make timeless wisdom feel in- incredibly make timeless wisdom feel in- incredibly make timeless wisdom feel in- incredibly relevant to to the relevant to to the relevant to to the >> Fosdick was New York City, wasn't he?

>> Fosdick was New York City, wasn't he? >> Fosdick was New York City, wasn't he? And jog my memory. Yeah, yeah, because And jog my memory. Yeah, yeah, because And jog my memory. Yeah, yeah, because there were huge lines to get into his there were huge lines to get into his there were huge lines to get into his church. church. church. >> Yeah, yeah, he was >> Yeah, yeah, he was >> Yeah, yeah, he was >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> I I was just going to say when I start >> I I was just going to say when I start >> I I was just going to say when I start when I was reading more uh preachers when I was reading more uh preachers when I was reading more uh preachers you'd realize how many were kind of you'd realize how many were kind of you'd realize how many were kind of copying him too. You know, they would copying him too. You know, they would copying him too. You know, they would they would take parts of his sermons and they would take parts of his sermons and they would take parts of his sermons and then build on it for their own then build on it for their own then build on it for their own uh congregation. So, he obviously was uh congregation. So, he obviously was uh congregation. So, he obviously was his words were spreading all over cuz his words were spreading all over cuz his words were spreading all over cuz you can see them show up in all these you can see them show up in all these you can see them show up in all these other people's sermons like sometimes other people's sermons like sometimes other people's sermons like sometimes verbatim. verbatim. verbatim. >> Yeah, how little things have changed, >> Yeah, how little things have changed, >> Yeah, how little things have changed, David. How little things have changed. David. How little things have changed. David. How little things have changed. That's still happening today and the That's still happening today and the That's still happening today and the internet makes it easier. internet makes it easier. internet makes it easier. But, you know, I think that's some of my But, you know, I think that's some of my But, you know, I think that's some of my favorite modern theologians, even guests favorite modern theologians, even guests favorite modern theologians, even guests on this podcast from the Christian on this podcast from the Christian on this podcast from the Christian space. space. space. They're the people who are the most They're the people who are the most They're the people who are the most widely read. Not just biblical widely read. Not just biblical widely read. Not just biblical commentaries and theology and seminary commentaries and theology and seminary commentaries and theology and seminary things, but like read from philosophy, things, but like read from philosophy, things, but like read from philosophy, read from the classics, read from the read from the classics, read from the read from the classics, read from the mystics, read from mystics, read from mystics, read from a variety of things and I think a a variety of things and I think a a variety of things and I think a hundred years ago that was more of the hundred years ago that was more of the hundred years ago that was more of the preacher's job preacher's job preacher's job was to school himself or herself, it was was to school himself or herself, it was was to school himself or herself, it was mostly himself a hundred years ago mostly himself a hundred years ago mostly himself a hundred years ago in in in in y'all the world's viewpoint, the in y'all the world's viewpoint, the in y'all the world's viewpoint, the Bible's viewpoint, and then bring the Bible's viewpoint, and then bring the Bible's viewpoint, and then bring the rest.

rest. rest. Uh bring the best of it um and make your Uh bring the best of it um and make your Uh bring the best of it um and make your argument for the scriptures. argument for the scriptures. argument for the scriptures. Fascinating. So, Fascinating. So, Fascinating. So, I want to get to Inside the Box, your I want to get to Inside the Box, your I want to get to Inside the Box, your new book. You challenge this belief that new book. You challenge this belief that new book. You challenge this belief that freedom fuels creativity. And if there's freedom fuels creativity. And if there's freedom fuels creativity. And if there's anything that defines culture today, anything that defines culture today, anything that defines culture today, it's like we're all looking for our it's like we're all looking for our it's like we're all looking for our freedom. We're all looking for no freedom. We're all looking for no freedom. We're all looking for no constraints. I get to do what I want, constraints. I get to do what I want, constraints. I get to do what I want, when I want, however I want. um as much when I want, however I want. um as much when I want, however I want. um as much as it costs it doesn't matter. I we just as it costs it doesn't matter. I we just as it costs it doesn't matter. I we just dreamed that we would be somehow dreamed that we would be somehow dreamed that we would be somehow liberated. You're arguing not so fast. liberated. You're arguing not so fast. liberated. You're arguing not so fast. Say more about the thesis. Say more about the thesis. Say more about the thesis. >> I think the thesis is that that complete >> I think the thesis is that that complete >> I think the thesis is that that complete freedom freedom freedom uh and no constraints is incredibly uh and no constraints is incredibly uh and no constraints is incredibly alluring alluring alluring but actually bad for us when it comes to but actually bad for us when it comes to but actually bad for us when it comes to being being being more creative more collaborative as a more creative more collaborative as a more creative more collaborative as a society society society um and more satisfied as individuals. um and more satisfied as individuals. um and more satisfied as individuals. Um and of course when I think about Um and of course when I think about Um and of course when I think about religious structures right it's religious structures right it's religious structures right it's uh uh uh the constraints are are what make it the constraints are are what make it the constraints are are what make it work. The the things that we have work. The the things that we have work. The the things that we have decided we will not do decided we will not do decided we will not do is a huge part is a huge part is a huge part uh of the the cultural constraints uh of the the cultural constraints uh of the the cultural constraints right? In many ways this book led me to right? In many ways this book led me to right? In many ways this book led me to think about culture at least a central think about culture at least a central think about culture at least a central pillar of culture as that which we've pillar of culture as that which we've pillar of culture as that which we've decided we will not tolerate.

decided we will not tolerate. decided we will not tolerate. Um and and that helps define a culture. Um and and that helps define a culture. Um and and that helps define a culture. But from the you mentioned creativity But from the you mentioned creativity But from the you mentioned creativity from the creativity standpoint from the creativity standpoint from the creativity standpoint I was kind of surprised by some of this I was kind of surprised by some of this I was kind of surprised by some of this because there was actually in I cite because there was actually in I cite because there was actually in I cite this this this international survey by psychologists of international survey by psychologists of international survey by psychologists of known creativity myths. So these are known creativity myths. So these are known creativity myths. So these are things that we know are not true based things that we know are not true based things that we know are not true based on research. And the most popular one on research. And the most popular one on research. And the most popular one which I would have believed was that which I would have believed was that which I would have believed was that people are most creative when they're people are most creative when they're people are most creative when they're most free. most free. most free. And it turns out it's not the case at And it turns out it's not the case at And it turns out it's not the case at all because as the the cognitive all because as the the cognitive all because as the the cognitive scientist Daniel Willingham has has scientist Daniel Willingham has has scientist Daniel Willingham has has interestingly put it you may think your interestingly put it you may think your interestingly put it you may think your brain is made for thinking but it's brain is made for thinking but it's brain is made for thinking but it's actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from having to think whenever possible having to think whenever possible having to think whenever possible because thinking is energetically costly because thinking is energetically costly because thinking is energetically costly and so and so and so your brain wants to do the easy your brain wants to do the easy your brain wants to do the easy convenient thing not the not the hard convenient thing not the not the hard convenient thing not the not the hard thoughtful thing. thoughtful thing. thoughtful thing. And so the quickest way you can make And so the quickest way you can make And so the quickest way you can make someone more creative is basically by someone more creative is basically by someone more creative is basically by blocking the most convenient solution or blocking the most convenient solution or blocking the most convenient solution or the thing that they're always used to. the thing that they're always used to. the thing that they're always used to. So psychologists have come to call this So psychologists have come to call this So psychologists have come to call this the the green eggs and ham effect the the green eggs and ham effect the the green eggs and ham effect because because because Dr. Seuss famously wrote Green Eggs and Dr. Seuss famously wrote Green Eggs and Dr. Seuss famously wrote Green Eggs and Ham on a bet that he couldn't write a Ham on a bet that he couldn't write a Ham on a bet that he couldn't write a book using only 50 words. And that book using only 50 words. And that book using only 50 words. And that restriction forced him to experiment restriction forced him to experiment restriction forced him to experiment with rhythm in all these ways that with rhythm in all these ways that with rhythm in all these ways that nobody really ever had before. So, nobody really ever had before. So, nobody really ever had before. So, the best creative the best creative the best creative >> story. I mean, I had that queued up as a >> story. I mean, I had that queued up as a >> story. I mean, I had that queued up as a question. Green Eggs and Ham, I mean, I question. Green Eggs and Ham, I mean, I question. Green Eggs and Ham, I mean, I read that to my kids a million times. I read that to my kids a million times. I read that to my kids a million times. I got read it when I was a kid.

got read it when I was a kid. got read it when I was a kid. Give us the backstory of that book and Give us the backstory of that book and Give us the backstory of that book and the power of constraints because it's the power of constraints because it's the power of constraints because it's probably his most memorable work. A lot probably his most memorable work. A lot probably his most memorable work. A lot of us can probably give you a couple of of us can probably give you a couple of of us can probably give you a couple of lines lines lines right off the top of our our head. right off the top of our our head. right off the top of our our head. >> Yeah, I mean, what set up that book was >> Yeah, I mean, what set up that book was >> Yeah, I mean, what set up that book was actually an earlier task where Theodor actually an earlier task where Theodor actually an earlier task where Theodor Geisel, aka Dr. Seuss, was given a Geisel, aka Dr. Seuss, was given a Geisel, aka Dr. Seuss, was given a vocabulary list for kids. But by the vocabulary list for kids. But by the vocabulary list for kids. But by the way, at the time, I mean, way, at the time, I mean, way, at the time, I mean, children's literature was incredibly children's literature was incredibly children's literature was incredibly literal and quite boring. literal and quite boring. literal and quite boring. Um Um Um and and and so he was asked to write a children's so he was asked to write a children's so he was asked to write a children's book using about 200 words from a book using about 200 words from a book using about 200 words from a vocabulary list. vocabulary list. vocabulary list. And he looks at the list and he starts And he looks at the list and he starts And he looks at the list and he starts complaining to his wife. He says, "There complaining to his wife. He says, "There complaining to his wife. He says, "There are no There are no adjectives. What am are no There are no adjectives. What am are no There are no adjectives. What am I supposed to do?" He says, I supposed to do?" He says, I supposed to do?" He says, "It's like trying to make a strudel "It's like trying to make a strudel "It's like trying to make a strudel without any strudels." Which I think is without any strudels." Which I think is without any strudels." Which I think is hilarious. It's like he was like the hilarious. It's like he was like the hilarious. It's like he was like the same guy in private as he appears to be same guy in private as he appears to be same guy in private as he appears to be in his books. in his books. in his books. And he gets frustrated and just decides, And he gets frustrated and just decides, And he gets frustrated and just decides, "You know what? I'm just going to take "You know what? I'm just going to take "You know what? I'm just going to take the first two rhyming words on the list the first two rhyming words on the list the first two rhyming words on the list and make a book out of it." And the and make a book out of it." And the and make a book out of it." And the first two rhyming words, cat and hat.

first two rhyming words, cat and hat. first two rhyming words, cat and hat. >> No way. >> No way. >> No way. >> is history. >> is history. >> is history. >> But it's like once he decided on that >> But it's like once he decided on that >> But it's like once he decided on that again, it it I mean, that's one of the again, it it I mean, that's one of the again, it it I mean, that's one of the the the useful I think they're the the useful I think they're the the useful I think they're I I think if if there's a mindset shift I I think if if there's a mindset shift I I think if if there's a mindset shift that I hope Inside the Box engenders, it that I hope Inside the Box engenders, it that I hope Inside the Box engenders, it would be to see limits as opportunities would be to see limits as opportunities would be to see limits as opportunities to clarify priorities and launch to clarify priorities and launch to clarify priorities and launch productive exploration. And in this productive exploration. And in this productive exploration. And in this case, it certainly led him to launch case, it certainly led him to launch case, it certainly led him to launch this productive exploration, which then this productive exploration, which then this productive exploration, which then led to the subsequent bet of bet you led to the subsequent bet of bet you led to the subsequent bet of bet you couldn't do this with only 50 words couldn't do this with only 50 words couldn't do this with only 50 words instead, and that that became Green Eggs instead, and that that became Green Eggs instead, and that that became Green Eggs and Ham. and Ham. and Ham. >> Man, that's interesting. And you're >> Man, that's interesting. And you're >> Man, that's interesting. And you're right, we all chafe at constraints. I right, we all chafe at constraints. I right, we all chafe at constraints. I mean, we got leaders looking at their mean, we got leaders looking at their mean, we got leaders looking at their budget right now and saying if only I budget right now and saying if only I budget right now and saying if only I had 10% more, if only I had another had 10% more, if only I had another had 10% more, if only I had another $100,000, million dollars, 10 million $100,000, million dollars, 10 million $100,000, million dollars, 10 million dollars, whatever your scale is. dollars, whatever your scale is. dollars, whatever your scale is. If like we we chafe against that. So, If like we we chafe against that. So, If like we we chafe against that. So, help us move into that paradox a little help us move into that paradox a little help us move into that paradox a little bit more. Craig Rochelle's been on this bit more. Craig Rochelle's been on this bit more. Craig Rochelle's been on this podcast numerous times. You can go back podcast numerous times. You can go back podcast numerous times. You can go back a few episodes, find one with him. a few episodes, find one with him. a few episodes, find one with him. And he leads the largest church in the And he leads the largest church in the And he leads the largest church in the history of America.

history of America. history of America. Um Life Church in Oklahoma. Mm, Um Life Church in Oklahoma. Mm, Um Life Church in Oklahoma. Mm, almost 100,000 people there every almost 100,000 people there every almost 100,000 people there every weekend. It's insane. weekend. It's insane. weekend. It's insane. >> That is incredible. >> That is incredible. >> That is incredible. >> Yeah, they have 47 locations. Craig will >> Yeah, they have 47 locations. Craig will >> Yeah, they have 47 locations. Craig will correct me. But anyway, I mean, it's an correct me. But anyway, I mean, it's an correct me. But anyway, I mean, it's an incredible story, but he lives under incredible story, but he lives under incredible story, but he lives under constraints. Like we can only do so constraints. Like we can only do so constraints. Like we can only do so much. This is how big and he's a big fan much. This is how big and he's a big fan much. This is how big and he's a big fan of that. So, of that. So, of that. So, what and I and what I see is and again, what and I and what I see is and again, what and I and what I see is and again, I've had the privilege of of I've had the privilege of of I've had the privilege of of interviewing so many leaders. interviewing so many leaders. interviewing so many leaders. Most of them are not like, I get to do Most of them are not like, I get to do Most of them are not like, I get to do whatever I want when I want, the whole whatever I want when I want, the whole whatever I want when I want, the whole influencer mode on social media. Most of influencer mode on social media. Most of influencer mode on social media. Most of them like them like them like they have constraints. So, explain why they have constraints. So, explain why they have constraints. So, explain why that is such a a valuable that is such a a valuable that is such a a valuable um thing to have. um thing to have. um thing to have. >> Yeah, I think aside from just >> Yeah, I think aside from just >> Yeah, I think aside from just creating structure and helping you creating structure and helping you creating structure and helping you figure out what to do cuz I've seen this figure out what to do cuz I've seen this figure out what to do cuz I've seen this with people with a lot of my peers as we with people with a lot of my peers as we with people with a lot of my peers as we become get a lot of autonomy, almost become get a lot of autonomy, almost become get a lot of autonomy, almost unprecedented autonomy in our work as unprecedented autonomy in our work as unprecedented autonomy in our work as independent writers. independent writers. independent writers. Uh there will be incredible difficulty Uh there will be incredible difficulty Uh there will be incredible difficulty with figuring out what you should with figuring out what you should with figuring out what you should actually be doing.

actually be doing. actually be doing. Right? So, it's like every day you have Right? So, it's like every day you have Right? So, it's like every day you have to decide what what am I doing today? to decide what what am I doing today? to decide what what am I doing today? You have all these medium kind of You have all these medium kind of You have all these medium kind of priorities that are fighting one priorities that are fighting one priorities that are fighting one another. Where when you do have another. Where when you do have another. Where when you do have constraints like leaders often have, constraints like leaders often have, constraints like leaders often have, it's an opportunity to clarify those it's an opportunity to clarify those it's an opportunity to clarify those those priorities. those priorities. those priorities. And And And you know, having resources is good. you know, having resources is good. you know, having resources is good. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But I think when you have resources and >> But I think when you have resources and >> But I think when you have resources and you haven't had to clarify those you haven't had to clarify those you haven't had to clarify those priorities, then it can actually be be priorities, then it can actually be be priorities, then it can actually be be bad. I mean, one of the first maybe this bad. I mean, one of the first maybe this bad. I mean, one of the first maybe this will resonate. This This isn't in the in will resonate. This This isn't in the in will resonate. This This isn't in the in the book, but the book, but the book, but one of the first readers of it was a guy one of the first readers of it was a guy one of the first readers of it was a guy named Ed Hoffman, who was NASA's first named Ed Hoffman, who was NASA's first named Ed Hoffman, who was NASA's first chief knowledge officer. That's chief knowledge officer. That's chief knowledge officer. That's basically it's a position for a basically it's a position for a basically it's a position for a psychologist that was appointed after psychologist that was appointed after psychologist that was appointed after the Columbia shuttle disaster, so which the Columbia shuttle disaster, so which the Columbia shuttle disaster, so which was so similar to the Challenger was so similar to the Challenger was so similar to the Challenger disaster, disaster, disaster, that Congress deemed NASA not a learning that Congress deemed NASA not a learning that Congress deemed NASA not a learning organization because the the cultural organization because the the cultural organization because the the cultural failures had been so similar, where failures had been so similar, where failures had been so similar, where people were blocking uh some people were people were blocking uh some people were people were blocking uh some people were blocking other people from getting blocking other people from getting blocking other people from getting certain information, basically. And certain information, basically. And certain information, basically. And so they forced this position to be so they forced this position to be so they forced this position to be created that was supposed to make sure created that was supposed to make sure created that was supposed to make sure that people would learn that people would learn that people would learn lessons, like lessons wouldn't be lessons, like lessons wouldn't be lessons, like lessons wouldn't be forgotten. There'd be institutional forgotten. There'd be institutional forgotten. There'd be institutional memory.

memory. memory. And so I I gave Ed the book because I I And so I I gave Ed the book because I I And so I I gave Ed the book because I I met him years ago in some of my met him years ago in some of my met him years ago in some of my reporting on NASA, and reporting on NASA, and reporting on NASA, and he stops partway and says, "I have to he stops partway and says, "I have to he stops partway and says, "I have to tell you about this mission called tell you about this mission called tell you about this mission called Elcross, where the team ended up with Elcross, where the team ended up with Elcross, where the team ended up with about half the time and money that they about half the time and money that they about half the time and money that they wanted." wanted." wanted." And so, what did they do? Well, first And so, what did they do? Well, first And so, what did they do? Well, first they started whining and complaining. they started whining and complaining. they started whining and complaining. And then they said, "If we were going to And then they said, "If we were going to And then they said, "If we were going to get this done anyway, how would we do get this done anyway, how would we do get this done anyway, how would we do it?" it?" it?" And it forced them to instead of And it forced them to instead of And it forced them to instead of building from scratch, to repurpose building from scratch, to repurpose building from scratch, to repurpose things. So, they took imaging equipment things. So, they took imaging equipment things. So, they took imaging equipment right from army tanks, and they took right from army tanks, and they took right from army tanks, and they took engine temperature sensors straight out engine temperature sensors straight out engine temperature sensors straight out of NASCAR, and they created the probe of NASCAR, and they created the probe of NASCAR, and they created the probe that confirmed water on the moon. that confirmed water on the moon. that confirmed water on the moon. And they never would have thought in And they never would have thought in And they never would have thought in that way that way that way if they hadn't been forced to. And if they hadn't been forced to. And if they hadn't been forced to. And that's not to say that we should give that's not to say that we should give that's not to say that we should give everyone half the time and budget for no everyone half the time and budget for no everyone half the time and budget for no reason, but even that thought experiment reason, but even that thought experiment reason, but even that thought experiment of of of "If I were forced to do that, and so my "If I were forced to do that, and so my "If I were forced to do that, and so my normal the easy methods were taken away, normal the easy methods were taken away, normal the easy methods were taken away, what would I do if I were going to still what would I do if I were going to still what would I do if I were going to still make it work?" And I think even that make it work?" And I think even that make it work?" And I think even that thought experiment can be really thought experiment can be really thought experiment can be really generative. generative. generative. >> Mhm. Yeah, that's a that sounds a little >> Mhm. Yeah, that's a that sounds a little >> Mhm. Yeah, that's a that sounds a little bit like Elon Musk and what he was doing bit like Elon Musk and what he was doing bit like Elon Musk and what he was doing because when he started SpaceX, you because when he started SpaceX, you because when he started SpaceX, you know, if you follow again, I don't know know, if you follow again, I don't know know, if you follow again, I don't know why I'm quoting him twice in an episode, why I'm quoting him twice in an episode, why I'm quoting him twice in an episode, but Isaacson's biography of Musk but Isaacson's biography of Musk but Isaacson's biography of Musk really fascinating portrait. He was just really fascinating portrait. He was just really fascinating portrait. He was just like, "Well, how much does that cost to like, "Well, how much does that cost to like, "Well, how much does that cost to produce? $100,000? Let's go to Home produce? $100,000? Let's go to Home produce? $100,000? Let's go to Home Depot and see if we can find this. Can Depot and see if we can find this. Can Depot and see if we can find this. Can you machine this into something else?

you machine this into something else? you machine this into something else? $6. There we go. Solved." Like, $6. There we go. Solved." Like, $6. There we go. Solved." Like, literally literally literally was out-NASAing NASA in SpaceX. was out-NASAing NASA in SpaceX. was out-NASAing NASA in SpaceX. >> Totally. I mean, I and I think it's >> Totally. I mean, I and I think it's >> Totally. I mean, I and I think it's that that's why NASA ended up needing a that that's why NASA ended up needing a that that's why NASA ended up needing a partner, right? Because they they grew partner, right? Because they they grew partner, right? Because they they grew and grew and grew and budgets got bigger and grew and grew and budgets got bigger and grew and grew and budgets got bigger and bigger and bigger and they kind of and bigger and bigger and they kind of and bigger and bigger and they kind of lost that lean mentality. lost that lean mentality. lost that lean mentality. And I think that's why Musk has really And I think that's why Musk has really And I think that's why Musk has really been a huge critic of been a huge critic of been a huge critic of um the way that government space um the way that government space um the way that government space contracts work. He thinks they should be contracts work. He thinks they should be contracts work. He thinks they should be much more definite, like here's the much more definite, like here's the much more definite, like here's the amount of money amount of money amount of money uh and here is the time because uh and here is the time because uh and here is the time because otherwise they they they just expand and otherwise they they they just expand and otherwise they they they just expand and get bloated, basically. get bloated, basically. get bloated, basically. >> Yeah, you know, and >> Yeah, you know, and >> Yeah, you know, and help help us understand, why is freedom help help us understand, why is freedom help help us understand, why is freedom not good for us? Um I don't know whether not good for us? Um I don't know whether not good for us? Um I don't know whether it was in your book or whether it was it was in your book or whether it was it was in your book or whether it was some other reading, some other reading, some other reading, um David, but you know, I've I've heard um David, but you know, I've I've heard um David, but you know, I've I've heard the diagnosis around why so many the diagnosis around why so many the diagnosis around why so many 20-somethings have no idea what to do 20-somethings have no idea what to do 20-somethings have no idea what to do with their life or who to marry or when with their life or who to marry or when with their life or who to marry or when to settle down or what job to take or to settle down or what job to take or to settle down or what job to take or what major to declare.

what major to declare. what major to declare. And it's largely because of infinite And it's largely because of infinite And it's largely because of infinite choice. And me being a child of the choice. And me being a child of the choice. And me being a child of the '60s, you know, born in the '60s, '60s, you know, born in the '60s, '60s, you know, born in the '60s, I didn't have a lot of options. It was I didn't have a lot of options. It was I didn't have a lot of options. It was like, you know, what you saw on the like, you know, what you saw on the like, you know, what you saw on the three channels you got and the people three channels you got and the people three channels you got and the people you knew. you knew. you knew. And I thought law school was going to be And I thought law school was going to be And I thought law school was going to be great and went there and you know, same great and went there and you know, same great and went there and you know, same as I didn't have an infinite dating as I didn't have an infinite dating as I didn't have an infinite dating pool. I had the people I knew. pool. I had the people I knew. pool. I had the people I knew. The internet was still very unused when The internet was still very unused when The internet was still very unused when I was dating. And now we're in this sea I was dating. And now we're in this sea I was dating. And now we're in this sea of infinite opportunity and people seem of infinite opportunity and people seem of infinite opportunity and people seem paralyzed. paralyzed. paralyzed. >> Yeah, and >> Yeah, and >> Yeah, and I mean, I never want to say that freedom I mean, I never want to say that freedom I mean, I never want to say that freedom is bad. Right, freedom is good. But and is bad. Right, freedom is good. But and is bad. Right, freedom is good. But and and and for most of human history, it and and for most of human history, it and and for most of human history, it would have been laughable to suggest we would have been laughable to suggest we would have been laughable to suggest we had too much freedom. This is a very had too much freedom. This is a very had too much freedom. This is a very recent problem, too much freedom and too recent problem, too much freedom and too recent problem, too much freedom and too much choice. So, even much choice. So, even much choice. So, even um like this Oxford professor showed um like this Oxford professor showed um like this Oxford professor showed that that that even consumers now the consumer choice even consumers now the consumer choice even consumers now the consumer choice has multiplied a hundred million fold has multiplied a hundred million fold has multiplied a hundred million fold compared to before the Industrial compared to before the Industrial compared to before the Industrial Revolution, which dwarfs the increase in Revolution, which dwarfs the increase in Revolution, which dwarfs the increase in wealth, which is only four hundred fold, wealth, which is only four hundred fold, wealth, which is only four hundred fold, a hundred million fold. So, it's like a hundred million fold. So, it's like a hundred million fold. So, it's like every and the more options there are, every and the more options there are, every and the more options there are, the more consumers come to see every the more consumers come to see every the more consumers come to see every choice is like an extension of their choice is like an extension of their choice is like an extension of their identity, so it's freighted with all identity, so it's freighted with all identity, so it's freighted with all this extra weight.

this extra weight. this extra weight. And we're just our brains are not And we're just our brains are not And we're just our brains are not equipped for infinite choice and equipped for infinite choice and equipped for infinite choice and especially infinite comparison. especially infinite comparison. especially infinite comparison. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? So, all these things that are >> Right? So, all these things that are >> Right? So, all these things that are passed off, like you mentioned dating. passed off, like you mentioned dating. passed off, like you mentioned dating. Where Where Where and there's research showing this that and there's research showing this that and there's research showing this that when people are trying to when people are trying to when people are trying to do what's called maximize their their do what's called maximize their their do what's called maximize their their decisions instead of satisfice, which decisions instead of satisfice, which decisions instead of satisfice, which means to set good enough criteria and go means to set good enough criteria and go means to set good enough criteria and go with it instead of trying to get the with it instead of trying to get the with it instead of trying to get the optimal, optimal, optimal, they end up less happy with their they end up less happy with their they end up less happy with their decisions, they end up less happy with decisions, they end up less happy with decisions, they end up less happy with their lives, and more prone to regret. their lives, and more prone to regret. their lives, and more prone to regret. And so, it's like that endless swiping, And so, it's like that endless swiping, And so, it's like that endless swiping, right? This endless right? This endless right? This endless is there something better around the is there something better around the is there something better around the corner means that corner means that corner means that you you instead of spending your energy you you instead of spending your energy you you instead of spending your energy living, you're always spending your living, you're always spending your living, you're always spending your energy wondering how to be living. energy wondering how to be living. energy wondering how to be living. And the there's some studies I cite in And the there's some studies I cite in And the there's some studies I cite in the introduction inside the box where the introduction inside the box where the introduction inside the box where it shows that since the it shows that since the it shows that since the introduction of infinite scrolling on introduction of infinite scrolling on introduction of infinite scrolling on phones, people have been getting more phones, people have been getting more phones, people have been getting more bored. bored. bored. And that if if you give someone And that if if you give someone And that if if you give someone a one video from a set of 20 that they a one video from a set of 20 that they a one video from a set of 20 that they can watch, they're more engaged than if can watch, they're more engaged than if can watch, they're more engaged than if you give them the set of 20 and let them you give them the set of 20 and let them you give them the set of 20 and let them choose. So, even the idea that there's choose. So, even the idea that there's choose. So, even the idea that there's something else that they could be doing something else that they could be doing something else that they could be doing spoils the experience of the moment spoils the experience of the moment spoils the experience of the moment itself, and we're just not itself, and we're just not itself, and we're just not programmed. You know, in most of our programmed. You know, in most of our programmed. You know, in most of our history you you know, social comparison history you you know, social comparison history you you know, social comparison is natural for humans, we're a hyper is natural for humans, we're a hyper is natural for humans, we're a hyper social species, but social species, but social species, but for most of history you compare yourself for most of history you compare yourself for most of history you compare yourself to the person down the block or next to the person down the block or next to the person down the block or next door. Now, it's like you can compare

door. Now, it's like you can compare door. Now, it's like you can compare yourself to the entire world, and much yourself to the entire world, and much yourself to the entire world, and much of it is fake, by the way. of it is fake, by the way. of it is fake, by the way. >> Yes, it's [laughter] not not the real >> Yes, it's [laughter] not not the real >> Yes, it's [laughter] not not the real world. world. world. >> Yeah, and and so it's this endless >> Yeah, and and so it's this endless >> Yeah, and and so it's this endless comparison machine, comparison machine, comparison machine, and I think it's terrible for us. So, and I think it's terrible for us. So, and I think it's terrible for us. So, maybe this will resonate with you maybe this will resonate with you maybe this will resonate with you actually. I just thought of this and actually. I just thought of this and actually. I just thought of this and just want to mention it and see what you just want to mention it and see what you just want to mention it and see what you think about it. think about it. think about it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Since about the late '60s, >> Since about the late '60s, >> Since about the late '60s, there have been these surveys in the US there have been these surveys in the US there have been these surveys in the US showing showing showing a shift from what psychologists call a shift from what psychologists call a shift from what psychologists call internal locus of control to external internal locus of control to external internal locus of control to external locus of control. So, this would be And locus of control. So, this would be And locus of control. So, this would be And it's been almost it's been almost it's been almost it's been almost it's been almost it's been almost linear. So, this is not just a social linear. So, this is not just a social linear. So, this is not just a social media media media phenomenon, but I think it has phenomenon, but I think it has phenomenon, but I think it has accelerating now, where internal locus accelerating now, where internal locus accelerating now, where internal locus of control means that you're pretty of control means that you're pretty of control means that you're pretty focused on things you can control, like focused on things you can control, like focused on things you can control, like having a philosophy for life, having a philosophy for life, having a philosophy for life, uh uh uh enumerating specific values and living enumerating specific values and living enumerating specific values and living by them. External locus of control are by them. External locus of control are by them. External locus of control are things that you can influence, but things that you can influence, but things that you can influence, but they're, you know, how much money you they're, you know, how much money you they're, you know, how much money you make, how other people see you, all make, how other people see you, all make, how other people see you, all these kinds of things. And there's been these kinds of things. And there's been these kinds of things. And there's been this progressive shift in this progressive shift in this progressive shift in the importance people place from the importance people place from the importance people place from internal locus of control to external internal locus of control to external internal locus of control to external locus of control, and it's tracked very locus of control, and it's tracked very locus of control, and it's tracked very well with the increase in anxiety, well with the increase in anxiety, well with the increase in anxiety, particularly among young people, which particularly among young people, which particularly among young people, which makes some sense because makes some sense because makes some sense because if much more of your life emphasis is on if much more of your life emphasis is on if much more of your life emphasis is on these things that are out of your these things that are out of your these things that are out of your control, control, control, you of course you're going to feel more you of course you're going to feel more you of course you're going to feel more more anxious uh than you would if you're more anxious uh than you would if you're more anxious uh than you would if you're focused on these things that you can focused on these things that you can focused on these things that you can actually do something about and live by.

actually do something about and live by. actually do something about and live by. >> Well, on the infinite scroll, that's >> Well, on the infinite scroll, that's >> Well, on the infinite scroll, that's also news now, I'm pretty sure on a lot also news now, I'm pretty sure on a lot also news now, I'm pretty sure on a lot of apps. It's just like you can just of apps. It's just like you can just of apps. It's just like you can just keep going and going. I've been it's keep going and going. I've been it's keep going and going. I've been it's funny because this year I've been funny because this year I've been funny because this year I've been talking about church trends when I'm out talking about church trends when I'm out talking about church trends when I'm out on the road speaking, on the road speaking, on the road speaking, and I'll mention Instagram used to have and I'll mention Instagram used to have and I'll mention Instagram used to have like you can be finished with your feed. like you can be finished with your feed. like you can be finished with your feed. I remember that when it was first out, I remember that when it was first out, I remember that when it was first out, it was like you're all caught up. it was like you're all caught up. it was like you're all caught up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I miss that. I miss My kids have all my >> I miss that. I miss My kids have all my >> I miss that. I miss My kids have all my record albums now that I had growing up, record albums now that I had growing up, record albums now that I had growing up, but I used to have like, I don't know, but I used to have like, I don't know, but I used to have like, I don't know, two or 300 record albums in milk crates two or 300 record albums in milk crates two or 300 record albums in milk crates in university and early married years. in university and early married years. in university and early married years. And And And I look on Spotify. 15-year-old me would I look on Spotify. 15-year-old me would I look on Spotify. 15-year-old me would have dreamt about being able to access have dreamt about being able to access have dreamt about being able to access any [clears throat] record in the world. any [clears throat] record in the world. any [clears throat] record in the world. Any music in the world. Any music in the world. Any music in the world. Me at this stage, I'm like, I don't know Me at this stage, I'm like, I don't know Me at this stage, I'm like, I don't know what to listen to. I'd rather have my what to listen to. I'd rather have my what to listen to. I'd rather have my 400 albums in milk crates where I could 400 albums in milk crates where I could 400 albums in milk crates where I could just kind of pick and be like, oh, I'm just kind of pick and be like, oh, I'm just kind of pick and be like, oh, I'm in this kind of mood or I'm in that kind in this kind of mood or I'm in that kind in this kind of mood or I'm in that kind of mood. of mood. of mood. Um because the infinite I don't know Um because the infinite I don't know Um because the infinite I don't know that we're built for it. I don't know that we're built for it. I don't know that we're built for it. I don't know that we're designed for it. that we're designed for it. that we're designed for it. >> We're not. We're not. As the >> We're not. We're not. As the >> We're not. We're not. As the uh social psychologist Jonathan Haidt uh social psychologist Jonathan Haidt uh social psychologist Jonathan Haidt says, we're it's not healthy for anyone says, we're it's not healthy for anyone says, we're it's not healthy for anyone to have access to everything everywhere to have access to everything everywhere to have access to everything everywhere all of the time. Like we're just not all of the time. Like we're just not all of the time. Like we're just not built for infinite choice. And a result built for infinite choice. And a result built for infinite choice. And a result is it just makes us feel worse about the is it just makes us feel worse about the is it just makes us feel worse about the decisions that we do make.

decisions that we do make. decisions that we do make. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so I actually think it's important >> Um so I actually think it's important >> Um so I actually think it's important for people to set kind of good enough for people to set kind of good enough for people to set kind of good enough standards. That that standards. That that standards. That that >> Yeah, satisficing? Do you want to talk >> Yeah, satisficing? Do you want to talk >> Yeah, satisficing? Do you want to talk about that for a little bit? about that for a little bit? about that for a little bit? >> Yeah. Yeah, so that's a term coined by >> Yeah. Yeah, so that's a term coined by >> Yeah. Yeah, so that's a term coined by a guy named Herbert Simon who was a guy named Herbert Simon who was a guy named Herbert Simon who was trained as a political scientist, but trained as a political scientist, but trained as a political scientist, but uh won the highest award in computer uh won the highest award in computer uh won the highest award in computer science, the Turing Award, because he science, the Turing Award, because he science, the Turing Award, because he did the first AI demonstration. He won did the first AI demonstration. He won did the first AI demonstration. He won the highest award in psychology because the highest award in psychology because the highest award in psychology because he was a founder of cognitive he was a founder of cognitive he was a founder of cognitive psychology, meaning not like therapy, psychology, meaning not like therapy, psychology, meaning not like therapy, but studying how our brains make but studying how our brains make but studying how our brains make decisions. decisions. decisions. And then he won the Nobel Prize in And then he won the Nobel Prize in And then he won the Nobel Prize in economics for good measure. And one of economics for good measure. And one of economics for good measure. And one of his his his um um um uh important ideas was called uh important ideas was called uh important ideas was called satisficing, which is a word he coined. satisficing, which is a word he coined. satisficing, which is a word he coined. It's a combination of satisfy and It's a combination of satisfy and It's a combination of satisfy and suffice. And what he found was that suffice. And what he found was that suffice. And what he found was that human brains uh human brains uh human brains uh cannot really optimize decisions in the cannot really optimize decisions in the cannot really optimize decisions in the way that classical economic theory way that classical economic theory way that classical economic theory suggests we can because we can't suggests we can because we can't suggests we can because we can't evaluate every option, and even if we evaluate every option, and even if we evaluate every option, and even if we do, we don't really know what the future do, we don't really know what the future do, we don't really know what the future holds. So we can't know the holds. So we can't know the holds. So we can't know the repercussions of our choices.

repercussions of our choices. repercussions of our choices. And so we have to use mental shortcuts. And so we have to use mental shortcuts. And so we have to use mental shortcuts. And what he um advocated was setting And what he um advocated was setting And what he um advocated was setting was satisficing proactively. Like was satisficing proactively. Like was satisficing proactively. Like setting good enough limits for things. setting good enough limits for things. setting good enough limits for things. You know, if you're going to buy some You know, if you're going to buy some You know, if you're going to buy some item, what are the three things you need item, what are the three things you need item, what are the three things you need this item to do for you, and then stop this item to do for you, and then stop this item to do for you, and then stop when you find those. when you find those. when you find those. You may maybe the thing ends up being You may maybe the thing ends up being You may maybe the thing ends up being way beyond good enough, but once you've way beyond good enough, but once you've way beyond good enough, but once you've met good enough, met good enough, met good enough, go with it. And he I mean, he wore the go with it. And he I mean, he wore the go with it. And he I mean, he wore the same brand of socks. He had one beret at same brand of socks. He had one beret at same brand of socks. He had one beret at a time. He told his daughter that you a time. He told his daughter that you a time. He told his daughter that you one only needed three sets of clothing, one only needed three sets of clothing, one only needed three sets of clothing, one on one's body, one in the closet, one on one's body, one in the closet, one on one's body, one in the closet, and one in the wash ready to wear. And and one in the wash ready to wear. And and one in the wash ready to wear. And he had the same breakfast every day, he had the same breakfast every day, he had the same breakfast every day, lived in the same house for 46 years, lived in the same house for 46 years, lived in the same house for 46 years, cuz he was he wanted to save his cuz he was he wanted to save his cuz he was he wanted to save his cognitive bandwidth for the cognitive bandwidth for the cognitive bandwidth for the the work that really mattered most to the work that really mattered most to the work that really mattered most to him. him. him. Um and and he would write in his career Um and and he would write in his career Um and and he would write in his career as, you know, again, being a founding as, you know, again, being a founding as, you know, again, being a founding father of AI, saw some of what was father of AI, saw some of what was father of AI, saw some of what was coming, coming, coming, and said, "We're moving into this and said, "We're moving into this and said, "We're moving into this information-rich world, information-rich world, information-rich world, and and and in an information-rich world, what in an information-rich world, what in an information-rich world, what uh uh uh what does that infringe upon, what does that infringe upon, what does that infringe upon, basically?" And he said, "Well, basically?" And he said, "Well, basically?" And he said, "Well, what's the thing that information what's the thing that information what's the thing that information consumes? It is attention. And so, in an consumes? It is attention. And so, in an consumes? It is attention. And so, in an information-rich world, we'll have a information-rich world, we'll have a information-rich world, we'll have a scarcity of attention."

scarcity of attention." scarcity of attention." And I think that's that's really true. And I think that's that's really true. And I think that's that's really true. It's like it's really hard for people to It's like it's really hard for people to It's like it's really hard for people to pay attention to the things even that pay attention to the things even that pay attention to the things even that matter most to them, because there's matter most to them, because there's matter most to them, because there's just this endless stream of of just this endless stream of of just this endless stream of of possibilities. possibilities. possibilities. >> This is really personal and timely for >> This is really personal and timely for >> This is really personal and timely for me. I picked a word for 2026, my and me. I picked a word for 2026, my and me. I picked a word for 2026, my and I've never done that before. Everybody I've never done that before. Everybody I've never done that before. Everybody is doing it for years, but my word is I is doing it for years, but my word is I is doing it for years, but my word is I didn't do goals. It's just like didn't do goals. It's just like didn't do goals. It's just like simplify. And I think what simplify is simplify. And I think what simplify is simplify. And I think what simplify is is living within constraints. In other is living within constraints. In other is living within constraints. In other words, I want to close off words, I want to close off words, I want to close off whole [snorts] categories of possibility whole [snorts] categories of possibility whole [snorts] categories of possibility for me, for me, for me, and be content with what I have. You and be content with what I have. You and be content with what I have. You know what I mean? If I'm going to make a know what I mean? If I'm going to make a know what I mean? If I'm going to make a purchase, my question is, is this going purchase, my question is, is this going purchase, my question is, is this going to make my life easier or more to make my life easier or more to make my life easier or more difficult? And I think often, you know, difficult? And I think often, you know, difficult? And I think often, you know, this idea of more, I got to I'll give this idea of more, I got to I'll give this idea of more, I got to I'll give you a really stupid example, garden you a really stupid example, garden you a really stupid example, garden hoses. hoses. hoses. Uh I bought a new garden hose, they're Uh I bought a new garden hose, they're Uh I bought a new garden hose, they're really heavy, it's difficult. really heavy, it's difficult. really heavy, it's difficult. Uh I'm Uh I'm Uh I'm you know, you know, you know, I I just went out and bought some I I just went out and bought some I I just went out and bought some lightweight garden hoses, they're going lightweight garden hoses, they're going lightweight garden hoses, they're going to make everything a whole lot simpler. to make everything a whole lot simpler. to make everything a whole lot simpler. Away we go. And it's like living within Away we go. And it's like living within Away we go. And it's like living within constraints, and that's great. If the constraints, and that's great. If the constraints, and that's great. If the best garden hose in the world gets best garden hose in the world gets best garden hose in the world gets purchased and I'm just not going to go purchased and I'm just not going to go purchased and I'm just not going to go there. I have enough car. I don't need a there. I have enough car. I don't need a there. I have enough car. I don't need a higher level of car. I don't need You higher level of car. I don't need You higher level of car. I don't need You know, it's that whole idea and I think know, it's that whole idea and I think know, it's that whole idea and I think it's returning agency to me and clarity it's returning agency to me and clarity it's returning agency to me and clarity of mind. And I it's satisficing, if you of mind. And I it's satisficing, if you of mind. And I it's satisficing, if you want to call it that.

want to call it that. want to call it that. >> Totally. Totally. >> Totally. Totally. >> Totally. Totally. >> What what are some examples in your life >> What what are some examples in your life >> What what are some examples in your life of things that you've just like, "No, of things that you've just like, "No, of things that you've just like, "No, I've satisficed this." I've satisficed this." I've satisficed this." >> I mean, I I for sure have maximizing >> I mean, I I for sure have maximizing >> I mean, I I for sure have maximizing tendencies when left up to my own tendencies when left up to my own tendencies when left up to my own devices. devices. devices. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and now I'm I'm aware that that makes >> Um and now I'm I'm aware that that makes >> Um and now I'm I'm aware that that makes people unhappy. So for sure with people unhappy. So for sure with people unhappy. So for sure with purchases and things, before I go purchases and things, before I go purchases and things, before I go looking on Amazon or whatever, I'll say, looking on Amazon or whatever, I'll say, looking on Amazon or whatever, I'll say, "This is the thing I needed to do." And "This is the thing I needed to do." And "This is the thing I needed to do." And once I see that, I'm not reading all once I see that, I'm not reading all once I see that, I'm not reading all these reviews. I'm done with it. You these reviews. I'm done with it. You these reviews. I'm done with it. You know, that's a simple one. But in a more know, that's a simple one. But in a more know, that's a simple one. But in a more um um um You know, and I even because of my You know, and I even because of my You know, and I even because of my maximizing tendencies, that's actually maximizing tendencies, that's actually maximizing tendencies, that's actually led me to to start a newsletter because led me to to start a newsletter because led me to to start a newsletter because I once I started writing books, I felt, I once I started writing books, I felt, I once I started writing books, I felt, "Oh, everything has to be this huge "Oh, everything has to be this huge "Oh, everything has to be this huge effort." Right? It has to be so perfect. effort." Right? It has to be so perfect. effort." Right? It has to be so perfect. And with a newsletter, say if a book has And with a newsletter, say if a book has And with a newsletter, say if a book has to be a nine or 10 on the effort scale to be a nine or 10 on the effort scale to be a nine or 10 on the effort scale or or the quality scale, or or the quality scale, or or the quality scale, this is going to sound bad, not make this is going to sound bad, not make this is going to sound bad, not make anybody ever want to subscribe to my anybody ever want to subscribe to my anybody ever want to subscribe to my newsletter, but if I reach six and a newsletter, but if I reach six and a newsletter, but if I reach six and a half on a newsletter post, there's half on a newsletter post, there's half on a newsletter post, there's always more stuff I want to add, but I'm always more stuff I want to add, but I'm always more stuff I want to add, but I'm sending it out. sending it out. sending it out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> been a very important satisficing >> been a very important satisficing >> been a very important satisficing exercise for me. But in in an even exercise for me. But in in an even exercise for me. But in in an even larger way, larger way, larger way, something you were saying reminded me of something you were saying reminded me of something you were saying reminded me of a of a passage that was really important a of a passage that was really important a of a passage that was really important to me and it led me to in some ways to to me and it led me to in some ways to to me and it led me to in some ways to pick a book topic instead of continuing pick a book topic instead of continuing pick a book topic instead of continuing to explore, which was I was when I got to explore, which was I was when I got to explore, which was I was when I got all this freedom because my my last book all this freedom because my my last book all this freedom because my my last book kind of liberated me to be independent, kind of liberated me to be independent, kind of liberated me to be independent, I said, "Oh gosh, these books are so I said, "Oh gosh, these books are so I said, "Oh gosh, these books are so hard. I'm not doing it again unless I hard. I'm not doing it again unless I hard. I'm not doing it again unless I find the perfect topic.

find the perfect topic. find the perfect topic. And so I would dip into topics and that And so I would dip into topics and that And so I would dip into topics and that was interesting that was fun. But I was interesting that was fun. But I was interesting that was fun. But I I'm really interested in this thing but I'm really interested in this thing but I'm really interested in this thing but maybe there's something that's you know maybe there's something that's you know maybe there's something that's you know more perfect. And then I came across more perfect. And then I came across more perfect. And then I came across this passage by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, this passage by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, this passage by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the psychologist who coined the term the psychologist who coined the term the psychologist who coined the term flow to describe the feeling of flow to describe the feeling of flow to describe the feeling of immersion in an activity. immersion in an activity. immersion in an activity. And he was talking about marriage in And he was talking about marriage in And he was talking about marriage in this passage. And and he said, you know, this passage. And and he said, you know, this passage. And and he said, you know, the great thing about committing the great thing about committing the great thing about committing uh to a marriage by by your choice uh to a marriage by by your choice uh to a marriage by by your choice is that is that is that all this energy gets freed up for living all this energy gets freed up for living all this energy gets freed up for living instead of wondering how to live. You're instead of wondering how to live. You're instead of wondering how to live. You're not constantly wondering is the grass not constantly wondering is the grass not constantly wondering is the grass greener on the next thing, right? It's greener on the next thing, right? It's greener on the next thing, right? It's like he wasn't talking about swiping but like he wasn't talking about swiping but like he wasn't talking about swiping but it's like you're not constantly it's like you're not constantly it's like you're not constantly wondering what's behind the next swipe. wondering what's behind the next swipe. wondering what's behind the next swipe. And that really resonated with me and And that really resonated with me and And that really resonated with me and also I instantly felt that oh, this is also I instantly felt that oh, this is also I instantly felt that oh, this is what I'm doing with topics. what I'm doing with topics. what I'm doing with topics. I'm just wondering what to be to dive I'm just wondering what to be to dive I'm just wondering what to be to dive into and be fascinated by instead of into and be fascinated by instead of into and be fascinated by instead of diving into something and being diving into something and being diving into something and being fascinated. And so it was that day that fascinated. And so it was that day that fascinated. And so it was that day that I said constraints is the topic I'm I said constraints is the topic I'm I said constraints is the topic I'm going to write a book proposal and you going to write a book proposal and you going to write a book proposal and you know, of course 2 weeks later I was 10 know, of course 2 weeks later I was 10 know, of course 2 weeks later I was 10 times as interested.

times as interested. times as interested. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But but it was >> But but it was >> But but it was saying saying saying it gets weird to say that I might have it gets weird to say that I might have it gets weird to say that I might have satisfied with my book topic but I I satisfied with my book topic but I I satisfied with my book topic but I I could have kept exploring and I would could have kept exploring and I would could have kept exploring and I would have. And I said, you know what? I'm have. And I said, you know what? I'm have. And I said, you know what? I'm going to pick something that fascinates going to pick something that fascinates going to pick something that fascinates me right now and see where it goes. And me right now and see where it goes. And me right now and see where it goes. And then again, of course, once you put then again, of course, once you put then again, of course, once you put energy into it, it becomes that much energy into it, it becomes that much energy into it, it becomes that much more interesting. more interesting. more interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um you talked about wicked and kind Um you talked about wicked and kind Um you talked about wicked and kind environments. Can you help us understand environments. Can you help us understand environments. Can you help us understand what you mean by each? Those were new what you mean by each? Those were new what you mean by each? Those were new terms to me. terms to me. terms to me. >> Yeah, those are terms coined by >> Yeah, those are terms coined by >> Yeah, those are terms coined by psychologist named Robin Hogarth. psychologist named Robin Hogarth. psychologist named Robin Hogarth. And what he meant by kind environments And what he meant by kind environments And what he meant by kind environments are specifically kind learning are specifically kind learning are specifically kind learning environments. environments. environments. Um they're not not value judgments in Um they're not not value judgments in Um they're not not value judgments in kind environments. kind environments. kind environments. >> Right, right, kind and wicked, yeah. >> Right, right, kind and wicked, yeah. >> Right, right, kind and wicked, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But he meant uh domains where But he meant uh domains where But he meant uh domains where the next steps and goals are handed to the next steps and goals are handed to the next steps and goals are handed to you, they're very clear. Uh rules are you, they're very clear. Uh rules are you, they're very clear. Uh rules are clear and don't change. Patterns repeat, clear and don't change. Patterns repeat, clear and don't change. Patterns repeat, feedback's quick and accurate, um often feedback's quick and accurate, um often feedback's quick and accurate, um often not a lot of human dynamics involved. So not a lot of human dynamics involved. So not a lot of human dynamics involved. So so, you know, golf for example is an so, you know, golf for example is an so, you know, golf for example is an example that I've used uh where it's a example that I've used uh where it's a example that I've used uh where it's a very kind learning environment. You're very kind learning environment. You're very kind learning environment. You're kind of trying to do a certain thing kind of trying to do a certain thing kind of trying to do a certain thing with as little deviation as as possible with as little deviation as as possible with as little deviation as as possible if you can. And on the other end of the if you can. And on the other end of the if you can. And on the other end of the spectrum of what Hogarth called wicked spectrum of what Hogarth called wicked spectrum of what Hogarth called wicked learning environments where the next learning environments where the next learning environments where the next steps and goals may not always just be steps and goals may not always just be steps and goals may not always just be handed to you. You may have to define handed to you. You may have to define handed to you. You may have to define them.

them. them. Um Um Um if there are rules at all, they may if there are rules at all, they may if there are rules at all, they may change. A pat- You can't just change. A pat- You can't just change. A pat- You can't just count on repetitive patterns and count on repetitive patterns and count on repetitive patterns and feedback could be delayed or inaccurate. feedback could be delayed or inaccurate. feedback could be delayed or inaccurate. And there's a lot of human behavior And there's a lot of human behavior And there's a lot of human behavior involved. And this is a spectrum and involved. And this is a spectrum and involved. And this is a spectrum and what Hogarth saw was that what Hogarth saw was that what Hogarth saw was that the more wicked the learning the more wicked the learning the more wicked the learning environment, the less people learn environment, the less people learn environment, the less people learn automatically just from having automatically just from having automatically just from having experience. So experience. So experience. So people will actually get more confident people will actually get more confident people will actually get more confident but not more competent in wicked but not more competent in wicked but not more competent in wicked learning environments if learning environments if learning environments if um they just have sort of repetitive um they just have sort of repetitive um they just have sort of repetitive experience alone. experience alone. experience alone. Uh and so in Uh and so in Uh and so in and I think one of the arguments I made and I think one of the arguments I made and I think one of the arguments I made is that we're all is that we're all is that we're all increasingly spending a little more time increasingly spending a little more time increasingly spending a little more time in these wicked learning environments in these wicked learning environments in these wicked learning environments because of how the the the pace of because of how the the the pace of because of how the the the pace of change in the world basically. change in the world basically. change in the world basically. >> think church would be a great candidate, >> think church would be a great candidate, >> think church would be a great candidate, church leadership for wicked church leadership for wicked church leadership for wicked environment. I mean, there's so many environment. I mean, there's so many environment. I mean, there's so many moving parts, so many variables. You've moving parts, so many variables. You've moving parts, so many variables. You've got your congregation. You've got got your congregation. You've got got your congregation. You've got changing culture. Church tends to change changing culture. Church tends to change changing culture. Church tends to change a little more slowly than the culture a little more slowly than the culture a little more slowly than the culture around it. You've got people coming.

around it. You've got people coming. around it. You've got people coming. You've got people going. You've got You've got people going. You've got You've got people going. You've got critics. You've got people who love your critics. You've got people who love your critics. You've got people who love your leadership. You've got staff sometimes leadership. You've got staff sometimes leadership. You've got staff sometimes rotating in and out. There's a lot of rotating in and out. There's a lot of rotating in and out. There's a lot of moving parts. So how does wicked and moving parts. So how does wicked and moving parts. So how does wicked and kind kind kind relate to relate to relate to constraints? constraints? constraints? >> I think in the when we're in these >> I think in the when we're in these >> I think in the when we're in these scenarios that are more complex, right? scenarios that are more complex, right? scenarios that are more complex, right? In the kinder learning environments, In the kinder learning environments, In the kinder learning environments, the constraints are obvious. They're the constraints are obvious. They're the constraints are obvious. They're easy. easy. easy. >> Yeah, golf has rules. It's like you're >> Yeah, golf has rules. It's like you're >> Yeah, golf has rules. It's like you're out of bounds. We're on the third hole. out of bounds. We're on the third hole. out of bounds. We're on the third hole. >> very literal rules, right? >> very literal rules, right? >> very literal rules, right? >> You are on the green. Right. Yeah, okay. >> You are on the green. Right. Yeah, okay. >> You are on the green. Right. Yeah, okay. I see it. I see it. I see it. >> The more wicked the learning >> The more wicked the learning >> The more wicked the learning environment, the more it's incumbent environment, the more it's incumbent environment, the more it's incumbent upon us upon us upon us to create constraints to create constraints to create constraints um if we don't want um if we don't want um if we don't want chaos and a feeling of drifting. And chaos and a feeling of drifting. And chaos and a feeling of drifting. And that can come from that can come from that can come from really really really uh explicitly outlining the values of a uh explicitly outlining the values of a uh explicitly outlining the values of a specific place, what we're sticking to, specific place, what we're sticking to, specific place, what we're sticking to, the mission, the mission, the mission, uh the problem you're trying to solve. uh the problem you're trying to solve. uh the problem you're trying to solve. One of the most important figures One of the most important figures One of the most important figures that I was writing about that I was writing about that I was writing about relevant to constraints in in in in in relevant to constraints in in in in in relevant to constraints in in in in in in the book, not the most important in the book, not the most important in the book, not the most important figure in the world, but to the the book figure in the world, but to the the book figure in the world, but to the the book itself, a guy named Tony Fadell, who was itself, a guy named Tony Fadell, who was itself, a guy named Tony Fadell, who was first worked at a first worked at a first worked at a uh this visionary company that turned uh this visionary company that turned uh this visionary company that turned into a disaster because they had way too into a disaster because they had way too into a disaster because they had way too many resources and too much talent, and many resources and too much talent, and many resources and too much talent, and so they couldn't decide what not to do.

so they couldn't decide what not to do. so they couldn't decide what not to do. So, they just did every good idea that So, they just did every good idea that So, they just did every good idea that someone had, and it became a disaster. someone had, and it became a disaster. someone had, and it became a disaster. And then he went on to lead the design And then he went on to lead the design And then he went on to lead the design of the iPod and co-founded the smart of the iPod and co-founded the smart of the iPod and co-founded the smart thermostat company Nest. And he was like thermostat company Nest. And he was like thermostat company Nest. And he was like obsessed with constraints, where he with obsessed with constraints, where he with obsessed with constraints, where he with Nest, for example, he forced the team to Nest, for example, he forced the team to Nest, for example, he forced the team to prototype the box before the product prototype the box before the product prototype the box before the product because he said, "This will show us this because he said, "This will show us this because he said, "This will show us this is what our end user is going to see. is what our end user is going to see. is what our end user is going to see. Uh Uh Uh putting it on this box will force us to putting it on this box will force us to putting it on this box will force us to prioritize what do we think are those prioritize what do we think are those prioritize what do we think are those most important things, and how can we most important things, and how can we most important things, and how can we really concisely communicate them? really concisely communicate them? really concisely communicate them? And now today he mentors entrepreneurs, And now today he mentors entrepreneurs, And now today he mentors entrepreneurs, and he says his most important advice is and he says his most important advice is and he says his most important advice is to write the press release before you to write the press release before you to write the press release before you start the project. As if it were done on start the project. As if it were done on start the project. As if it were done on one page, because that shows you what is one page, because that shows you what is one page, because that shows you what is the problem I'm trying to solve. How am the problem I'm trying to solve. How am the problem I'm trying to solve. How am I trying to communicate the way I'm I trying to communicate the way I'm I trying to communicate the way I'm solving that problem? What are the solving that problem? What are the solving that problem? What are the things I hope people say about this when things I hope people say about this when things I hope people say about this when when it's done? when it's done? when it's done? And I think it it it gives this bounding And I think it it it gives this bounding And I think it it it gives this bounding box for the project. So, I think as a as box for the project. So, I think as a as box for the project. So, I think as a as I think that'd be a really interesting I think that'd be a really interesting I think that'd be a really interesting exercise for church leaders to say exercise for church leaders to say exercise for church leaders to say before they start some initiative before they start some initiative before they start some initiative write the press release. And see what write the press release. And see what write the press release. And see what What do you hope this looks like if it's What do you hope this looks like if it's What do you hope this looks like if it's successful, and why? What are you trying successful, and why? What are you trying successful, and why? What are you trying to do? What problem are you trying to to do? What problem are you trying to to do? What problem are you trying to solve? Who Who's the Who's the person solve? Who Who's the Who's the person solve? Who Who's the Who's the person that's receiving this? Cuz I think it that's receiving this? Cuz I think it that's receiving this? Cuz I think it can just be clarifying for what it is can just be clarifying for what it is can just be clarifying for what it is you're trying to do in these sort of you're trying to do in these sort of you're trying to do in these sort of open-ended environments where you can do open-ended environments where you can do open-ended environments where you can do so much and really have to have to force so much and really have to have to force so much and really have to have to force yourself to clarify priorities.

yourself to clarify priorities. yourself to clarify priorities. >> Well, I think you put your finger on one >> Well, I think you put your finger on one >> Well, I think you put your finger on one of the the good problems that we have as of the the good problems that we have as of the the good problems that we have as church leaders. We have an infinite church leaders. We have an infinite church leaders. We have an infinite mission. I mean, it's to reach everybody mission. I mean, it's to reach everybody mission. I mean, it's to reach everybody with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, you take that into your small town, your you take that into your small town, your you take that into your small town, your village, your city, your suburb, village, your city, your suburb, village, your city, your suburb, wherever you are. wherever you are. wherever you are. And And And you know, it's it you know, it's it you know, it's it it's a never-ending mission. it's a never-ending mission. it's a never-ending mission. Uh you might have 10,000 people within a Uh you might have 10,000 people within a Uh you might have 10,000 people within a 30-minute drive of your church, you 30-minute drive of your church, you 30-minute drive of your church, you might have a million people, and then might have a million people, and then might have a million people, and then you've got the world. And I think that's you've got the world. And I think that's you've got the world. And I think that's why a lot of church leaders get why a lot of church leaders get why a lot of church leaders get intoxicated with the dream of growth, intoxicated with the dream of growth, intoxicated with the dream of growth, with more locations, more campuses, more with more locations, more campuses, more with more locations, more campuses, more reach, more online impact. And once reach, more online impact. And once reach, more online impact. And once again, then you're chafing against again, then you're chafing against again, then you're chafing against constraints. So, if the mission actually constraints. So, if the mission actually constraints. So, if the mission actually is to reach the world with the love of is to reach the world with the love of is to reach the world with the love of Christ, let's let's say that's what the Christ, let's let's say that's what the Christ, let's let's say that's what the mission is. mission is. mission is. How do you put constraints around that How do you put constraints around that How do you put constraints around that without killing the mission? without killing the mission? without killing the mission? >> Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, even if the mission itself is infinite, even if the mission itself is infinite, even if the mission itself is infinite, and I love that phrase, infinite and I love that phrase, infinite and I love that phrase, infinite mission. That's really cool.

mission. That's really cool. mission. That's really cool. Um I like how you put that. The The Um I like how you put that. The The Um I like how you put that. The The the person, the person, the person, whether that's the church leader or whether that's the church leader or whether that's the church leader or um um um uh uh uh a churchgoer, the person is still a churchgoer, the person is still a churchgoer, the person is still limited. Right? So, so the leader may limited. Right? So, so the leader may limited. Right? So, so the leader may have an infinite mission, but they still have an infinite mission, but they still have an infinite mission, but they still have to decide how to spend their time. have to decide how to spend their time. have to decide how to spend their time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And how to >> And how to >> And how to uh uh uh communicate communicate communicate in a way that will work for someone in a way that will work for someone in a way that will work for someone else's life, also. else's life, also. else's life, also. Um because I think it is important for Um because I think it is important for Um because I think it is important for religious leaders to to to understand religious leaders to to to understand religious leaders to to to understand what their community's life is like what their community's life is like what their community's life is like where the rubber meets the road and so where the rubber meets the road and so where the rubber meets the road and so that they can deliver these messages in that they can deliver these messages in that they can deliver these messages in a way that are much more likely to have a way that are much more likely to have a way that are much more likely to have impact and be integrated into someone's impact and be integrated into someone's impact and be integrated into someone's life. life. life. Um and so I think thinking really hard Um and so I think thinking really hard Um and so I think thinking really hard about what are the practical ways to do about what are the practical ways to do about what are the practical ways to do that? What are the most important values that? What are the most important values that? What are the most important values to communicate? What are the most to communicate? What are the most to communicate? What are the most important lessons to communicate? What important lessons to communicate? What important lessons to communicate? What are the most concise ways to do that are the most concise ways to do that are the most concise ways to do that that that that that that that match with with the problem you're match with with the problem you're match with with the problem you're trying to solve for someone. Like may trying to solve for someone. Like may trying to solve for someone. Like may maybe a church leader feels that the maybe a church leader feels that the maybe a church leader feels that the problem they're trying to solve for problem they're trying to solve for problem they're trying to solve for their community is is their community is is their community is is um um um having them having them having them live more like Christ would have, you live more like Christ would have, you live more like Christ would have, you know, to to follow the model of St.

know, to to follow the model of St. know, to to follow the model of St. Francis for example and live more in Francis for example and live more in Francis for example and live more in this way or to um this way or to um this way or to um or to to come into the community in the or to to come into the community in the or to to come into the community in the first place or to find values that add first place or to find values that add first place or to find values that add meaning to their life. Like what what meaning to their life. Like what what meaning to their life. Like what what are those things? And I think it's are those things? And I think it's are those things? And I think it's similar. I don't want to similar. I don't want to similar. I don't want to I I don't want to make this comparison I I don't want to make this comparison I I don't want to make this comparison as if they're value equal but they're as if they're value equal but they're as if they're value equal but they're similar to way that good designers of similar to way that good designers of similar to way that good designers of products say products say products say really profile their customer and that really profile their customer and that really profile their customer and that gives them this box to say, here's the gives them this box to say, here's the gives them this box to say, here's the problem that I'm solving for this person problem that I'm solving for this person problem that I'm solving for this person that I'm giving to them. And I think that I'm giving to them. And I think that I'm giving to them. And I think that can just add a tremendous amount of that can just add a tremendous amount of that can just add a tremendous amount of uh of clarity for what you're doing and uh of clarity for what you're doing and uh of clarity for what you're doing and help help help um ultimately expand the impact because um ultimately expand the impact because um ultimately expand the impact because these are in a way these are end users these are in a way these are end users these are in a way these are end users for wisdom and for lessons. for wisdom and for lessons. for wisdom and for lessons. And so how are we the designers that um And so how are we the designers that um And so how are we the designers that um you know, there's this there's this you know, there's this there's this you know, there's this there's this saying I love from product design. I saying I love from product design. I saying I love from product design. I don't know who first but people don't don't know who first but people don't don't know who first but people don't want a quarter inch drill, they want a want a quarter inch drill, they want a want a quarter inch drill, they want a quarter inch hole in the wall. quarter inch hole in the wall. quarter inch hole in the wall. And so it's like don't tell them And so it's like don't tell them And so it's like don't tell them what what your just what your thing is. what what your just what your thing is. what what your just what your thing is. It's how are you It's how are you It's how are you filling this need for them? And I think filling this need for them? And I think filling this need for them? And I think thinking really hard about that can thinking really hard about that can thinking really hard about that can uh help us spend the most use of our uh help us spend the most use of our uh help us spend the most use of our very finite time even when you're on a very finite time even when you're on a very finite time even when you're on a an infinite mission.

an infinite mission. an infinite mission. >> Let's talk about constraints and >> Let's talk about constraints and >> Let's talk about constraints and specific examples, financial specific examples, financial specific examples, financial constraints. I think you know, the constraints. I think you know, the constraints. I think you know, the surveys are clear, anecdotes are clear. surveys are clear, anecdotes are clear. surveys are clear, anecdotes are clear. Everybody would like a little more money Everybody would like a little more money Everybody would like a little more money for their budget, for their personal for their budget, for their personal for their budget, for their personal lives. What is the value of reasonable lives. What is the value of reasonable lives. What is the value of reasonable financial constraints and how you how do financial constraints and how you how do financial constraints and how you how do you determine what is reasonable? you determine what is reasonable? you determine what is reasonable? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean having resources is nice and good, having resources is nice and good, having resources is nice and good, right? right? right? >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um >> Um >> Um at the same time at the same time at the same time when I was interviewing Bill Gurley, when I was interviewing Bill Gurley, when I was interviewing Bill Gurley, who's a famous who's a famous who's a famous >> Yeah, he was so I think you you had on >> Yeah, he was so I think you you had on >> Yeah, he was so I think you you had on you said right? you said right? you said right? >> I loved Bill. Yeah. >> I loved Bill. Yeah. >> I loved Bill. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Brilliant. >> Brilliant. >> Brilliant. >> One one of the first things he told me >> One one of the first things he told me >> One one of the first things he told me was we have a saying so so for people was we have a saying so so for people was we have a saying so so for people who didn't hear that episode, he's known who didn't hear that episode, he's known who didn't hear that episode, he's known for his early investments in Uber and for his early investments in Uber and for his early investments in Uber and Zillow and all these other things. Zillow and all these other things. Zillow and all these other things. And he said, "Oh, we have a saying in And he said, "Oh, we have a saying in And he said, "Oh, we have a saying in venture, more startups die of venture, more startups die of venture, more startups die of indigestion than starvation." indigestion than starvation." indigestion than starvation." That they have too much, not too little That they have too much, not too little That they have too much, not too little and it means they're not forced to be and it means they're not forced to be and it means they're not forced to be lean and they're not forced to to lean and they're not forced to to lean and they're not forced to to clarify their priorities and so they clarify their priorities and so they clarify their priorities and so they they spiral and and become diffuse, they spiral and and become diffuse, they spiral and and become diffuse, basically.

basically. basically. And I don't know what the And I don't know what the And I don't know what the how to put a specific numerical target how to put a specific numerical target how to put a specific numerical target on how much money anyone should have. on how much money anyone should have. on how much money anyone should have. And I don't want people to have a And I don't want people to have a And I don't want people to have a scarcity mindset, right? scarcity mindset, right? scarcity mindset, right? Which I which I view more as feeling Which I which I view more as feeling Which I which I view more as feeling like you're in zero-sum competition with like you're in zero-sum competition with like you're in zero-sum competition with other people, right? Because I don't other people, right? Because I don't other people, right? Because I don't think think think society is a zero-sum competition. society is a zero-sum competition. society is a zero-sum competition. Um Um Um but I think being lean but I think being lean but I think being lean um forces you to be creative and not um forces you to be creative and not um forces you to be creative and not just throw resources at the problem and just throw resources at the problem and just throw resources at the problem and to figure out how to to figure out how to to figure out how to get more out of less. I mean, the march get more out of less. I mean, the march get more out of less. I mean, the march of human efficiency is getting more out of human efficiency is getting more out of human efficiency is getting more out of less. of less. of less. Um and so I think at least if there's a Um and so I think at least if there's a Um and so I think at least if there's a phase, right? All these startups that phase, right? All these startups that phase, right? All these startups that Bill's talking about, eventually they Bill's talking about, eventually they Bill's talking about, eventually they want to get big and have tons of want to get big and have tons of want to get big and have tons of resources. resources. resources. But at least early on, being lean But at least early on, being lean But at least early on, being lean forces people to wear different hats so forces people to wear different hats so forces people to wear different hats so they get a broader perspective they get a broader perspective they get a broader perspective and forces them to and forces them to and forces them to um um um find different ways to do things within find different ways to do things within find different ways to do things within those those limits. And I think if you those those limits. And I think if you those those limits. And I think if you skip over that skip over that skip over that phase where you're forced to innovate uh phase where you're forced to innovate uh phase where you're forced to innovate uh then maybe it doesn't get built into the then maybe it doesn't get built into the then maybe it doesn't get built into the the DNA at all if you do eventually the DNA at all if you do eventually the DNA at all if you do eventually become larger.

become larger. become larger. >> Let's talk about um constraints with >> Let's talk about um constraints with >> Let's talk about um constraints with teams. Everybody would love to hire a teams. Everybody would love to hire a teams. Everybody would love to hire a few more staff, have better staff, et few more staff, have better staff, et few more staff, have better staff, et cetera. What are the what's the value of cetera. What are the what's the value of cetera. What are the what's the value of thinking inside the box with your team? thinking inside the box with your team? thinking inside the box with your team? >> Yeah, it's interesting is a bigger staff >> Yeah, it's interesting is a bigger staff >> Yeah, it's interesting is a bigger staff is obviously alluring, but I think we is obviously alluring, but I think we is obviously alluring, but I think we also also also underestimate the coordination well, I underestimate the coordination well, I underestimate the coordination well, I know it is this is this is called know it is this is this is called know it is this is this is called Brooks's law actually in in teams uh Brooks's law actually in in teams uh Brooks's law actually in in teams uh that we underestimate the increasing that we underestimate the increasing that we underestimate the increasing complexity and coordination costs when complexity and coordination costs when complexity and coordination costs when the team grows. So, more people in the the team grows. So, more people in the the team grows. So, more people in the team definitely brings things, but it team definitely brings things, but it team definitely brings things, but it also requires more coordination and we also requires more coordination and we also requires more coordination and we usually underestimate how difficult that usually underestimate how difficult that usually underestimate how difficult that that will be. that will be. that will be. Um which is one of the reasons why, for Um which is one of the reasons why, for Um which is one of the reasons why, for example, Jeff Bezos had this rule at example, Jeff Bezos had this rule at example, Jeff Bezos had this rule at Amazon that was the two pizza rule. It Amazon that was the two pizza rule. It Amazon that was the two pizza rule. It was like if two pizzas can't feed the was like if two pizzas can't feed the was like if two pizzas can't feed the team, then the team is too big. team, then the team is too big. team, then the team is too big. Uh maybe that sounds extreme, but I Uh maybe that sounds extreme, but I Uh maybe that sounds extreme, but I think he was recognizing that think he was recognizing that think he was recognizing that >> I like that. >> I like that. >> I like that. >> there can be a speed and intimacy of >> there can be a speed and intimacy of >> there can be a speed and intimacy of communication communication communication when a team stays smaller.

when a team stays smaller. when a team stays smaller. Um Um Um I and I think that's especially true if I and I think that's especially true if I and I think that's especially true if we can do synchronous communication. So, we can do synchronous communication. So, we can do synchronous communication. So, I think I think I think if if if um um um if all communication is asynchronous, it if all communication is asynchronous, it if all communication is asynchronous, it it it can it it can it it can be slow no matter how you're doing it. be slow no matter how you're doing it. be slow no matter how you're doing it. So, email basically. Um To to give an So, email basically. Um To to give an So, email basically. Um To to give an example, this one psychologist I wrote example, this one psychologist I wrote example, this one psychologist I wrote about studied NASA teams that design about studied NASA teams that design about studied NASA teams that design NASA missions and NASA missions and NASA missions and she found she found she found that it typically took them 6 months to that it typically took them 6 months to that it typically took them 6 months to design a mission and it was lots of back design a mission and it was lots of back design a mission and it was lots of back and forth email and all this stuff. And and forth email and all this stuff. And and forth email and all this stuff. And then they came up decided to try this then they came up decided to try this then they came up decided to try this thing they called extreme collaboration, thing they called extreme collaboration, thing they called extreme collaboration, where they built kind of a war room where they built kind of a war room where they built kind of a war room where people could see shared monitors where people could see shared monitors where people could see shared monitors and sit with their team in the same and sit with their team in the same and sit with their team in the same room. They could hear when their part of room. They could hear when their part of room. They could hear when their part of the project or their name came up, and the project or their name came up, and the project or their name came up, and they could identify errors really they could identify errors really they could identify errors really quickly. And they did it, they designed quickly. And they did it, they designed quickly. And they did it, they designed a mission in 9 hours. So it cut the a mission in 9 hours. So it cut the a mission in 9 hours. So it cut the process from 6 months because normally process from 6 months because normally process from 6 months because normally it would be a problem comes up, someone it would be a problem comes up, someone it would be a problem comes up, someone sends an email, then they maybe get an sends an email, then they maybe get an sends an email, then they maybe get an email back a few days later, then email back a few days later, then email back a few days later, then there's a few more emails about deciding there's a few more emails about deciding there's a few more emails about deciding what to do about it. In this case, it what to do about it. In this case, it what to do about it. In this case, it was happening in real time.

was happening in real time. was happening in real time. And so I think And so I think And so I think if you're you can really magnify the if you're you can really magnify the if you're you can really magnify the advantages of a of a the the small advantages of a of a the the small advantages of a of a the the small coordination cost of a team if you can coordination cost of a team if you can coordination cost of a team if you can get people in person together to be get people in person together to be get people in person together to be doing some of this work, you save doing some of this work, you save doing some of this work, you save yourself days or weeks of asynchronous yourself days or weeks of asynchronous yourself days or weeks of asynchronous communication. And that's something that communication. And that's something that communication. And that's something that you can't do with a really large team. you can't do with a really large team. you can't do with a really large team. And so I think it's an advantage that And so I think it's an advantage that And so I think it's an advantage that that where we can use. that where we can use. that where we can use. >> Want to shift gears a little bit. We're >> Want to shift gears a little bit. We're >> Want to shift gears a little bit. We're definitely in the era of AI, and AI definitely in the era of AI, and AI definitely in the era of AI, and AI probably more than anything in our probably more than anything in our probably more than anything in our lifetime, like the internet was lifetime, like the internet was lifetime, like the internet was a massive upgrade in lack of downgrade a massive upgrade in lack of downgrade a massive upgrade in lack of downgrade upgrade in lack of constraints. In other upgrade in lack of constraints. In other upgrade in lack of constraints. In other words, what was very scarce became words, what was very scarce became words, what was very scarce became abundantly plentiful on just about abundantly plentiful on just about abundantly plentiful on just about any category you could name, from any category you could name, from any category you could name, from dating, relationships to music, to art, dating, relationships to music, to art, dating, relationships to music, to art, to to to talks, to publishing, to talks, to publishing, to talks, to publishing, to consumer goods. The internet changed the consumer goods. The internet changed the consumer goods. The internet changed the world. AI is probably on a scale that world. AI is probably on a scale that world. AI is probably on a scale that beyond anything we've imagined. Have you beyond anything we've imagined. Have you beyond anything we've imagined. Have you had any musings or thoughts on had any musings or thoughts on had any musings or thoughts on artificial intelligence and constraints?

artificial intelligence and constraints? artificial intelligence and constraints? >> Yeah, to try to educate myself >> Yeah, to try to educate myself >> Yeah, to try to educate myself on it on it on it and keep up a little bit. and keep up a little bit. and keep up a little bit. For the last [snorts] year or so, I've For the last [snorts] year or so, I've For the last [snorts] year or so, I've spent a lot of time with one particular spent a lot of time with one particular spent a lot of time with one particular AI company. AI company. AI company. Um and this company helps other Um and this company helps other Um and this company helps other companies implement AI. companies implement AI. companies implement AI. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So so as they say, we help you hire your >> So so as they say, we help you hire your >> So so as they say, we help you hire your first AI employee, basically. first AI employee, basically. first AI employee, basically. And one of the things I've noticed And one of the things I've noticed And one of the things I've noticed is that a lot of the organizations is that a lot of the organizations is that a lot of the organizations they're dealing with they're dealing with they're dealing with uh have rushed to implement AI because uh have rushed to implement AI because uh have rushed to implement AI because it's alluring and they their competitors it's alluring and they their competitors it's alluring and they their competitors are and all these things. are and all these things. are and all these things. And it leads to what And it leads to what And it leads to what MIT researchers have started calling MIT researchers have started calling MIT researchers have started calling work slop, where you produce this work slop, where you produce this work slop, where you produce this incredible volume incredible volume incredible volume of mediocre stuff that somebody or just of mediocre stuff that somebody or just of mediocre stuff that somebody or just this incredible volume in general that this incredible volume in general that this incredible volume in general that somebody has to deal with at some point, somebody has to deal with at some point, somebody has to deal with at some point, unless it's a fully fully automated unless it's a fully fully automated unless it's a fully fully automated end-to-end system, which few things are. end-to-end system, which few things are. end-to-end system, which few things are. Um Um Um and and and the ones that have done better, the ones that have done better, the ones that have done better, I think, I think, I think, have stopped and said, "Well, what's have stopped and said, "Well, what's have stopped and said, "Well, what's Let's define Let's map the jobs to be Let's define Let's map the jobs to be Let's define Let's map the jobs to be done. What is a problem that we have?

done. What is a problem that we have? done. What is a problem that we have? And And is there a tool that fits to And And is there a tool that fits to And And is there a tool that fits to that?" Instead of this sprawling that?" Instead of this sprawling that?" Instead of this sprawling uh implementation, because I think one uh implementation, because I think one uh implementation, because I think one thing that AI does thing that AI does thing that AI does is it makes even more that it's never is it makes even more that it's never is it makes even more that it's never been easier to do too much. been easier to do too much. been easier to do too much. I I I >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's It's never been easier to start a >> It's It's never been easier to start a >> It's It's never been easier to start a million things that aren't going to get million things that aren't going to get million things that aren't going to get finished or that you're not going to be finished or that you're not going to be finished or that you're not going to be able to pay attention to. able to pay attention to. able to pay attention to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, I think using our brains first >> And so, I think using our brains first >> And so, I think using our brains first to decide what it is we're trying to do to decide what it is we're trying to do to decide what it is we're trying to do and turning to the tool only second is and turning to the tool only second is and turning to the tool only second is hugely hugely hugely uh important. Um uh important. Um uh important. Um I I mean, I think AI has it There's also I I mean, I think AI has it There's also I I mean, I think AI has it There's also I I have in my brain both the bull and I I have in my brain both the bull and I I have in my brain both the bull and bear cases for what AI will will do to bear cases for what AI will will do to bear cases for what AI will will do to society. I I don't know how it's going society. I I don't know how it's going society. I I don't know how it's going to play out. Probably some of each. to play out. Probably some of each. to play out. Probably some of each. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I'm I'm worried that >> But I'm I'm worried that >> But I'm I'm worried that we could at the same time have this we could at the same time have this we could at the same time have this weird combination of weird combination of weird combination of incredible material prosperity, because incredible material prosperity, because incredible material prosperity, because it makes things easier to to make, it makes things easier to to make, it makes things easier to to make, and kind of social calamity, because it and kind of social calamity, because it and kind of social calamity, because it alienates people from each other and alienates people from each other and alienates people from each other and from their work and all these other from their work and all these other from their work and all these other sorts of things. That would be a weird sorts of things. That would be a weird sorts of things. That would be a weird combination, but combination, but combination, but I don't think it's totally crazy.

I don't think it's totally crazy. I don't think it's totally crazy. >> I've just done a almost two-year deep >> I've just done a almost two-year deep >> I've just done a almost two-year deep dive on AI myself, so I got a book dive on AI myself, so I got a book dive on AI myself, so I got a book on the implications for the church on the implications for the church on the implications for the church coming out this fall. coming out this fall. coming out this fall. >> Yeah, no, I think it's I'd love to hear >> Yeah, no, I think it's I'd love to hear >> Yeah, no, I think it's I'd love to hear about that. about that. about that. >> bull and bear market. And I think what >> bull and bear market. And I think what >> bull and bear market. And I think what you said earlier about agency is going you said earlier about agency is going you said earlier about agency is going to be really, really important. I can to be really, really important. I can to be really, really important. I can get get get AI to write my sermon for me. AI to write my sermon for me. AI to write my sermon for me. Going back to and I want to ask you a Going back to and I want to ask you a Going back to and I want to ask you a couple more questions before we wrap up. couple more questions before we wrap up. couple more questions before we wrap up. But um But um But um you know, I can get AI to write Well, at you know, I can get AI to write Well, at you know, I can get AI to write Well, at first it was a horrible sermon, then it first it was a horrible sermon, then it first it was a horrible sermon, then it was a decent sermon. I trained it on my was a decent sermon. I trained it on my was a decent sermon. I trained it on my voice, it can probably at this point voice, it can probably at this point voice, it can probably at this point write a plausible sermon, but I think my write a plausible sermon, but I think my write a plausible sermon, but I think my job is to go to the text job is to go to the text job is to go to the text on behalf of the congregation and on behalf of the congregation and on behalf of the congregation and wrestle with it, right? It's like when wrestle with it, right? It's like when wrestle with it, right? It's like when you're when you when you started page you're when you when you started page you're when you when you started page one or wherever you started of Inside one or wherever you started of Inside one or wherever you started of Inside the Box, there's that terrifying moment the Box, there's that terrifying moment the Box, there's that terrifying moment of looking at a of looking at a of looking at a blank screen and going, "All right, blank screen and going, "All right, blank screen and going, "All right, 65,000 words, can I do it? 80,000 words, 65,000 words, can I do it? 80,000 words, 65,000 words, can I do it? 80,000 words, can I do it?" And you do it, right? Like can I do it?" And you do it, right? Like can I do it?" And you do it, right? Like I had the same thing. I tried to write a I had the same thing. I tried to write a I had the same thing. I tried to write a 40,000-word book, ended up with a 40,000-word book, ended up with a 40,000-word book, ended up with a 65,000-word book. It's like, "Okay, but 65,000-word book. It's like, "Okay, but 65,000-word book. It's like, "Okay, but you know, chase the rabbit hole." But you know, chase the rabbit hole." But you know, chase the rabbit hole." But yeah, I think I think there could be yeah, I think I think there could be yeah, I think I think there could be some pretty significant some pretty significant some pretty significant social dislocation happening. And then social dislocation happening. And then social dislocation happening. And then also the anxiety, the the drift we've also the anxiety, the the drift we've also the anxiety, the the drift we've talked about already in a in a world of talked about already in a in a world of talked about already in a in a world of plenty.

plenty. plenty. I I worry about our mental health moving I I worry about our mental health moving I I worry about our mental health moving forward. I think AI is going to make forward. I think AI is going to make forward. I think AI is going to make social media's mental health impact look social media's mental health impact look social media's mental health impact look like the kiddie pool. like the kiddie pool. like the kiddie pool. I think we could be in big trouble. I think we could be in big trouble. I think we could be in big trouble. >> Yeah, I mean, two things there. One, >> Yeah, I mean, two things there. One, >> Yeah, I mean, two things there. One, when you mentioned the AI sermons, I when you mentioned the AI sermons, I when you mentioned the AI sermons, I mean, I would also guess that mean, I would also guess that mean, I would also guess that going back to the text is really going back to the text is really going back to the text is really important for you, right? You're a important for you, right? You're a important for you, right? You're a member of the congregation. member of the congregation. member of the congregation. >> right? I got to wrestle with this. >> right? I got to wrestle with this. >> right? I got to wrestle with this. >> Yeah, and and I agree. I I've been >> Yeah, and and I agree. I I've been >> Yeah, and and I agree. I I've been seeing just recently seeing just recently seeing just recently um people sharing these statistics about um people sharing these statistics about um people sharing these statistics about that the biggest growth area in AI is that the biggest growth area in AI is that the biggest growth area in AI is actually actually actually companionship. You know, people using it companionship. You know, people using it companionship. You know, people using it as as as um, not so much for personal um, not so much for personal um, not so much for personal productivity, but for this semi-therapy, productivity, but for this semi-therapy, productivity, but for this semi-therapy, semi-friendship, all those things. And boy, I think that could have a lot of boy, I think that could have a lot of implications. And if if those implications. And if if those implications. And if if those implications are that we are implications are that we are implications are that we are I mean, we if those implications are that we're we if those implications are that we're becoming even more alienated from being becoming even more alienated from being becoming even more alienated from being with one another in person, with one another in person, with one another in person, that I think is really bad. I mean, that I think is really bad. I mean, that I think is really bad. I mean, yeah, I just think I just think there's yeah, I just think I just think there's yeah, I just think I just think there's there's a lot of opportunity for even if there's a lot of opportunity for even if there's a lot of opportunity for even if it does lead to all these incredible it does lead to all these incredible it does lead to all these incredible material benefits for material benefits for material benefits for psychic and spiritual and emotional psychic and spiritual and emotional psychic and spiritual and emotional impoverishment.

impoverishment. impoverishment. >> No, I I that's where the mental health >> No, I I that's where the mental health >> No, I I that's where the mental health implications come from. It's the lack of implications come from. It's the lack of implications come from. It's the lack of human connection. I mean, the stats human connection. I mean, the stats human connection. I mean, the stats already today in early mid-2026 are already today in early mid-2026 are already today in early mid-2026 are 70% 2% of teens use AI for 70% 2% of teens use AI for 70% 2% of teens use AI for companionship. companionship. companionship. >> Wow, 72% of teens. >> Wow, 72% of teens. >> Wow, 72% of teens. >> prefer AI conversations to human >> prefer AI conversations to human >> prefer AI conversations to human conversations. conversations. conversations. >> And and that's just And is that >> And and that's just And is that >> And and that's just And is that man, that's distressing. Is that man, that's distressing. Is that man, that's distressing. Is that >> Is is that I wonder what do what if part >> Is is that I wonder what do what if part >> Is is that I wonder what do what if part of that if we know if part of that is of that if we know if part of that is of that if we know if part of that is because it's easy, right? It's easy. because it's easy, right? It's easy. because it's easy, right? It's easy. It's It's there. And like some things It's It's there. And like some things It's It's there. And like some things that are good for humans are not easy. that are good for humans are not easy. that are good for humans are not easy. >> Well, relationship, I mean, this is true >> Well, relationship, I mean, this is true >> Well, relationship, I mean, this is true biblically, it's it's true just in biblically, it's it's true just in biblically, it's it's true just in experience. What is it? It's rupture and experience. What is it? It's rupture and experience. What is it? It's rupture and repair. It's you and Malcolm repair. It's you and Malcolm repair. It's you and Malcolm on stage debating on stage debating on stage debating repair, let's go for a run. repair, let's go for a run. repair, let's go for a run. Right? That's that's what that's what Right? That's that's what that's what Right? That's that's what that's what marriage is, that's what friendship is. marriage is, that's what friendship is. marriage is, that's what friendship is. There's always a rupture There's always a rupture There's always a rupture and then hopefully there's a repair. You and then hopefully there's a repair. You and then hopefully there's a repair. You can look through the lens of every can look through the lens of every can look through the lens of every biblical story biblical story biblical story from cover to cover, you know, Jewish from cover to cover, you know, Jewish from cover to cover, you know, Jewish scripture, Christian scripture, what is scripture, Christian scripture, what is scripture, Christian scripture, what is it? Rupture, repair.

it? Rupture, repair. it? Rupture, repair. Paradise is lost within three chapters Paradise is lost within three chapters Paradise is lost within three chapters of the Old Testament. of the Old Testament. of the Old Testament. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> The Hebrew scriptures, gone. And then >> The Hebrew scriptures, gone. And then >> The Hebrew scriptures, gone. And then there's a repair story. That's there's a repair story. That's there's a repair story. That's ultimately what it's about. And the ultimately what it's about. And the ultimately what it's about. And the thing about AI is is there's no rupture thing about AI is is there's no rupture thing about AI is is there's no rupture other than maybe you lost connection or other than maybe you lost connection or other than maybe you lost connection or it didn't give you the answer you it didn't give you the answer you it didn't give you the answer you wanted, but it's trained to be wanted, but it's trained to be wanted, but it's trained to be psychophantic. It's trained to engage psychophantic. It's trained to engage psychophantic. It's trained to engage you. you. you. The longer you stay, the more money the The longer you stay, the more money the The longer you stay, the more money the companies make. companies make. companies make. And And And yeah, I have I have very big concerns. yeah, I have I have very big concerns. yeah, I have I have very big concerns. You already have the Gen Z stare You already have the Gen Z stare You already have the Gen Z stare like for customer service. So you're like for customer service. So you're like for customer service. So you're you're not really sure that these people you're not really sure that these people you're not really sure that these people want to be talking to you. And I think want to be talking to you. And I think want to be talking to you. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things that's one of the most beautiful things that's one of the most beautiful things about being human is we learn how to about being human is we learn how to about being human is we learn how to embrace embrace embrace the rupture and repair. And the rupture and repair. And the rupture and repair. And yeah, I I I you know, don't want to be yeah, I I I you know, don't want to be yeah, I I I you know, don't want to be the old man worrying about it, but I the old man worrying about it, but I the old man worrying about it, but I worry about it. worry about it. worry about it. >> No, I mean, I think that's a beautiful >> No, I mean, I think that's a beautiful >> No, I mean, I think that's a beautiful way to put it and I think it's important way to put it and I think it's important way to put it and I think it's important to have to have to have older people worrying about it. Is is older people worrying about it. Is is older people worrying about it. Is is all of this stuff as you were saying all of this stuff as you were saying all of this stuff as you were saying that I was just thinking, all this that I was just thinking, all this that I was just thinking, all this stuff, you know, internet, infinite stuff, you know, internet, infinite stuff, you know, internet, infinite scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, AI chat companion, etc. It's all so low AI chat companion, etc. It's all so low AI chat companion, etc. It's all so low friction, right? And it's so low friction, right? And it's so low friction, right? And it's so low friction because friction because friction because uh because it's an attention economy and uh because it's an attention economy and uh because it's an attention economy and somebody is profiting from your somebody is profiting from your somebody is profiting from your attention.

attention. attention. It's so low friction that we do it even It's so low friction that we do it even It's so low friction that we do it even if it's maybe bad for us. if it's maybe bad for us. if it's maybe bad for us. Right? The these other things, this Right? The these other things, this Right? The these other things, this rupture and repair, even little little rupture and repair, even little little rupture and repair, even little little human interactions where like you used human interactions where like you used human interactions where like you used to go to grocery store instead of to go to grocery store instead of to go to grocery store instead of getting your groceries delivered, if getting your groceries delivered, if getting your groceries delivered, if that's something you do. that's something you do. that's something you do. All these little inconveniences that All these little inconveniences that All these little inconveniences that have some friction can actually really have some friction can actually really have some friction can actually really add a lot of meaning to your life and add a lot of meaning to your life and add a lot of meaning to your life and um um um you know, a lot of the things I think you know, a lot of the things I think you know, a lot of the things I think a lot of the the lessons that come out a lot of the the lessons that come out a lot of the the lessons that come out of religious wisdom of religious wisdom of religious wisdom that are helping people decide how to that are helping people decide how to that are helping people decide how to live, it's not always the most live, it's not always the most live, it's not always the most convenient thing they could be doing, convenient thing they could be doing, convenient thing they could be doing, right? Being Being committed to another right? Being Being committed to another right? Being Being committed to another person is not the most loving thing you person is not the most loving thing you person is not the most loving thing you could be doing. could be doing. could be doing. >> That's hard. >> That's hard. >> That's hard. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know you know what you said, I wrote >> You know you know what you said, I wrote >> You know you know what you said, I wrote it down. This is interesting. I hadn't it down. This is interesting. I hadn't it down. This is interesting. I hadn't thought about it before. You're right. thought about it before. You're right. thought about it before. You're right. It is very low reflect like our life It is very low reflect like our life It is very low reflect like our life online is very low friction. online is very low friction. online is very low friction. Look at what's happened as we've had Look at what's happened as we've had Look at what's happened as we've had more low friction opportunities with our more low friction opportunities with our more low friction opportunities with our social media, all that stuff, scrolling social media, all that stuff, scrolling social media, all that stuff, scrolling infinite scrolling media.

infinite scrolling media. infinite scrolling media. Our culture has become more high Our culture has become more high Our culture has become more high friction. friction. friction. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And is that because we're so I'm just >> And is that because we're so I'm just >> And is that because we're so I'm just thinking out loud. Is that because we're thinking out loud. Is that because we're thinking out loud. Is that because we're so trained on low friction stakes so trained on low friction stakes so trained on low friction stakes that when we actually have to debate that when we actually have to debate that when we actually have to debate each other or see each other, each other or see each other, each other or see each other, it goes to high friction. I don't know it goes to high friction. I don't know it goes to high friction. I don't know this is true in your world, but almost this is true in your world, but almost this is true in your world, but almost everywhere I go, particularly in Canada everywhere I go, particularly in Canada everywhere I go, particularly in Canada for some reason, for some reason, for some reason, there's signs everywhere about like there's signs everywhere about like there's signs everywhere about like abusive and and aggressive behavior will abusive and and aggressive behavior will abusive and and aggressive behavior will not be tolerated, etc. etc. Uh I mean not be tolerated, etc. etc. Uh I mean not be tolerated, etc. etc. Uh I mean that's in doctor's offices, that's in that's in doctor's offices, that's in that's in doctor's offices, that's in your dentist's office, that's in your dentist's office, that's in your dentist's office, that's in in a the Department of Motor Vehicles. in a the Department of Motor Vehicles. in a the Department of Motor Vehicles. Um Um Um people are just I guess people are just I guess people are just I guess a lot more rage a lot more rage a lot more rage when you're in person and I wonder if when you're in person and I wonder if when you're in person and I wonder if that's because we've lost the social that's because we've lost the social that's because we've lost the social lubricant of everyday interaction. lubricant of everyday interaction. lubricant of everyday interaction. >> I would guess that's an impact because >> I would guess that's an impact because >> I would guess that's an impact because if you look at you know if you spend any if you look at you know if you spend any if you look at you know if you spend any time on the internet or on social media, time on the internet or on social media, time on the internet or on social media, you see how people are behaving. you see how people are behaving. you see how people are behaving. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um they're treating each other often with they're treating each other often with they're treating each other often with very little humanity. very little humanity. very little humanity. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and it's easy to do cuz it's just >> Um and it's easy to do cuz it's just >> Um and it's easy to do cuz it's just this endless cycle of micro dramas with this endless cycle of micro dramas with this endless cycle of micro dramas with this rotating cast of characters. Nobody this rotating cast of characters. Nobody this rotating cast of characters. Nobody has any obligation to anybody else, has any obligation to anybody else, has any obligation to anybody else, right? Um and right? Um and right? Um and yeah, because I think what makes yeah, because I think what makes yeah, because I think what makes like life meaningful is having a dense like life meaningful is having a dense like life meaningful is having a dense network of reciprocal obligations to network of reciprocal obligations to network of reciprocal obligations to people and there's none of that on the people and there's none of that on the people and there's none of that on the internet. And so internet. And so internet. And so uh it doesn't totally surprise me. And uh it doesn't totally surprise me. And uh it doesn't totally surprise me. And and also and also it feeds people and also and also it feeds people and also and also it feeds people things, right? Because we know that things, right? Because we know that things, right? Because we know that things that make people angry leads to things that make people angry leads to things that make people angry leads to increased engagement. And so the

increased engagement. And so the increased engagement. And so the algorithm preferizes preferences things algorithm preferizes preferences things algorithm preferizes preferences things that make people angry. So, that make people angry. So, that make people angry. So, I think I saw some I think I saw some I think I saw some study that showed that people used to study that showed that people used to study that showed that people used to see see see two things a year or something like that two things a year or something like that two things a year or something like that that they would rate a 10 out of 10 in a that they would rate a 10 out of 10 in a that they would rate a 10 out of 10 in a scale of objectionable behavior. And now scale of objectionable behavior. And now scale of objectionable behavior. And now it's like several things a day if it's like several things a day if it's like several things a day if they're uh on the internet. And so, they're uh on the internet. And so, they're uh on the internet. And so, maybe it's not a surprise that people maybe it's not a surprise that people maybe it's not a surprise that people keep behaving like that when they get keep behaving like that when they get keep behaving like that when they get off the internet with people with people off the internet with people with people off the internet with people with people in person. So, so it's like, you know, in person. So, so it's like, you know, in person. So, so it's like, you know, you play how you practice. And if you're you play how you practice. And if you're you play how you practice. And if you're practicing on the internet being angry practicing on the internet being angry practicing on the internet being angry and yelling at people all day, then and yelling at people all day, then and yelling at people all day, then probably come game time, you know, probably come game time, you know, probably come game time, you know, that's what you're going to do. that's what you're going to do. that's what you're going to do. >> David, this has been a fascinating >> David, this has been a fascinating >> David, this has been a fascinating conversation. Before we wrap up, is conversation. Before we wrap up, is conversation. Before we wrap up, is there a question that nobody asks you there a question that nobody asks you there a question that nobody asks you that you're like you wish somebody would that you're like you wish somebody would that you're like you wish somebody would ask you? ask you? ask you? >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so there's something I wrote about late in there's something I wrote about late in there's something I wrote about late in the book that I don't expect anyone will the book that I don't expect anyone will the book that I don't expect anyone will ask me about. Maybe this counts because ask me about. Maybe this counts because ask me about. Maybe this counts because you're asking me what you should ask me, you're asking me what you should ask me, you're asking me what you should ask me, but but but it was this it was this it was this part about part about part about what this philosopher I was reading what this philosopher I was reading what this philosopher I was reading named Todd May calls narrative values.

named Todd May calls narrative values. named Todd May calls narrative values. And And And so I think the question can I ask myself so I think the question can I ask myself so I think the question can I ask myself the question? the question? the question? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> So, so narrative values are basically >> So, so narrative values are basically >> So, so narrative values are basically when you look at your life, when you look at your life, when you look at your life, what are the themes of your story? what are the themes of your story? what are the themes of your story? This, you know, loyalty, honesty, This, you know, loyalty, honesty, This, you know, loyalty, honesty, hospitality, curiosity, whatever it is. hospitality, curiosity, whatever it is. hospitality, curiosity, whatever it is. And if you can kind of consolidate, you And if you can kind of consolidate, you And if you can kind of consolidate, you know, you can if you can find these know, you can if you can find these know, you can if you can find these small number of values, they can really small number of values, they can really small number of values, they can really be a north star for you in a pretty be a north star for you in a pretty be a north star for you in a pretty complicated world. And for me, when I complicated world. And for me, when I complicated world. And for me, when I was reading about that, I identified was reading about that, I identified was reading about that, I identified ones that I have, diligence, ones that I have, diligence, ones that I have, diligence, open-mindedness, curiosity. But then open-mindedness, curiosity. But then open-mindedness, curiosity. But then one, the question I asked myself was, one, the question I asked myself was, one, the question I asked myself was, what what was one that you want to add what what was one that you want to add what what was one that you want to add that you don't have? that you don't have? that you don't have? And for me, I think that was And for me, I think that was And for me, I think that was forgiveness. Like that's just not forgiveness. Like that's just not forgiveness. Like that's just not something that came easily to me in something that came easily to me in something that came easily to me in life. life. life. >> That's a good one. >> That's a good one. >> That's a good one. >> And, you know, you end end realizing >> And, you know, you end end realizing >> And, you know, you end end realizing you're just poisoning yourself with it you're just poisoning yourself with it you're just poisoning yourself with it and I end I end up spending some time and I end I end up spending some time and I end I end up spending some time and becoming really good friends with a and becoming really good friends with a and becoming really good friends with a guy who was the at the time he passed guy who was the at the time he passed guy who was the at the time he passed away not long ago but was the only away not long ago but was the only away not long ago but was the only living Olympian to have survived a living Olympian to have survived a living Olympian to have survived a concentration camp concentration camp concentration camp you know orphaned and all these things you know orphaned and all these things you know orphaned and all these things and he would lead groups of other and he would lead groups of other and he would lead groups of other survivors to go back to Poland or back survivors to go back to Poland or back survivors to go back to Poland or back to Germany because he'd say look to Germany because he'd say look to Germany because he'd say look these people aren't responsible for what these people aren't responsible for what these people aren't responsible for what happened to you we have to build bridges happened to you we have to build bridges happened to you we have to build bridges you you have to you cannot just harbor you you have to you cannot just harbor you you have to you cannot just harbor this this this and and and when I looked at what he went through when I looked at what he went through when I looked at what he went through and said compared to the things that I'm and said compared to the things that I'm and said compared to the things that I'm holding grudges about holding grudges about holding grudges about nothing and it just made me want to be nothing and it just made me want to be nothing and it just made me want to be better in that way so I decided okay I better in that way so I decided okay I better in that way so I decided okay I have these values that come easily to me have these values that come easily to me have these values that come easily to me here's one that doesn't come easily to

here's one that doesn't come easily to here's one that doesn't come easily to me that I but I wanted to become a theme me that I but I wanted to become a theme me that I but I wanted to become a theme in my story in my story in my story and it's just a short note in the book and it's just a short note in the book and it's just a short note in the book but I but I but I I don't expect it's something that I don't expect it's something that I don't expect it's something that people will ask me about people will ask me about people will ask me about >> why did you include it in the book >> because the the last chapter is more >> because the the last chapter is more personal and philosophical than any personal and philosophical than any personal and philosophical than any chapter I've written in any of my books chapter I've written in any of my books chapter I've written in any of my books and it's about and it's about and it's about um um um crafting a life crafting a life crafting a life that feels meaningful that feels meaningful that feels meaningful and so I was reading a lot of and so I was reading a lot of and so I was reading a lot of philosophers about philosophers philosophers about philosophers philosophers about philosophers religious leaders religious leaders religious leaders everyone everyone I could get my hands everyone everyone I could get my hands everyone everyone I could get my hands on about what leads to a meaningful life on about what leads to a meaningful life on about what leads to a meaningful life and there was this theme of and there was this theme of and there was this theme of having a coherent life story having a coherent life story having a coherent life story that that that um um um uh has a thread of of values that you uh has a thread of of values that you uh has a thread of of values that you care about care about care about and and and yeah I was also writing it around the yeah I was also writing it around the yeah I was also writing it around the time that this man his name was Ben time that this man his name was Ben time that this man his name was Ben Helfgott passed away and so he was Helfgott passed away and so he was Helfgott passed away and so he was looming large in my mind and I just looming large in my mind and I just looming large in my mind and I just one of the things I wanted to one of the things I wanted to one of the things I wanted to to do to to do to to do to learn from his impact in my life was to learn from his impact in my life was to learn from his impact in my life was to to embrace something that I incredibly to embrace something that I incredibly to embrace something that I incredibly admired but was not seeing in myself >> that's very vulnerable >> that's very vulnerable >> yeah I got I don't know if it's just >> yeah I got I don't know if it's just >> yeah I got I don't know if it's just getting older or what, but um getting older or what, but um getting older or what, but um I'm I increasingly recognize so much of I'm I increasingly recognize so much of I'm I increasingly recognize so much of my work is me search, you know, things my work is me search, you know, things my work is me search, you know, things that I'm curious about in myself.

that I'm curious about in myself. that I'm curious about in myself. >> Same. >> Same. >> Same. >> And [clears throat] >> And [clears throat] >> And [clears throat] and being a little more willing to and being a little more willing to and being a little more willing to um um um just share a little bit of myself on the just share a little bit of myself on the just share a little bit of myself on the page where earlier in my career I page where earlier in my career I page where earlier in my career I thought that was a not a you know, that thought that was a not a you know, that thought that was a not a you know, that you had to be just totally removed from you had to be just totally removed from you had to be just totally removed from all the things that you're writing all the things that you're writing all the things that you're writing about, but but you're not removed about, but but you're not removed about, but but you're not removed anyway. So, I think that's just a anyway. So, I think that's just a anyway. So, I think that's just a facade. So, I think I facade. So, I think I facade. So, I think I less less less uh uh uh I'm not opposed to that anymore. I'm not opposed to that anymore. I'm not opposed to that anymore. >> I love that. I love that. I've got a um >> I love that. I love that. I've got a um >> I love that. I love that. I've got a um like a a graphic that a friend of mine like a a graphic that a friend of mine like a a graphic that a friend of mine made on the stairs on the way down in my made on the stairs on the way down in my made on the stairs on the way down in my office and it just Socrates, unexamined office and it just Socrates, unexamined office and it just Socrates, unexamined life is not worth living. life is not worth living. life is not worth living. And And And good on you for examining it. Look under good on you for examining it. Look under good on you for examining it. Look under all the rocks. all the rocks. all the rocks. Um I got to tell you, this has been Um I got to tell you, this has been Um I got to tell you, this has been great. So, the two books that we've been great. So, the two books that we've been great. So, the two books that we've been discussing, Leaders discussing, Leaders discussing, Leaders uh is from David's work in Range and uh is from David's work in Range and uh is from David's work in Range and more recently Inside the Box. Range is more recently Inside the Box. Range is more recently Inside the Box. Range is about the broad experiences, Inside the about the broad experiences, Inside the about the broad experiences, Inside the Box is about constraints and why they're Box is about constraints and why they're Box is about constraints and why they're valuable. They are out now, available valuable. They are out now, available valuable. They are out now, available everywhere. David, if people want to everywhere. David, if people want to everywhere. David, if people want to track with you online, where's the track with you online, where's the track with you online, where's the easiest place to catch up with you these easiest place to catch up with you these easiest place to catch up with you these days?

days? days? >> Uh davidepstein.com and there's a link >> Uh davidepstein.com and there's a link >> Uh davidepstein.com and there's a link there to a free newsletter that I have there to a free newsletter that I have there to a free newsletter that I have where I continue writing about these where I continue writing about these where I continue writing about these topics. topics. topics. >> somewhere between a six and a 10 out of >> somewhere between a six and a 10 out of >> somewhere between a six and a 10 out of 10. Most 10. Most 10. Most of the time of the time of the time >> up for my newsletter. That is a yeah, >> up for my newsletter. That is a yeah, >> up for my newsletter. That is a yeah, six and a half out of every every post. six and a half out of every every post. six and a half out of every every post. It's not a great way to sell it, but um It's not a great way to sell it, but um It's not a great way to sell it, but um but also I do a newsletter, too. but also I do a newsletter, too. but also I do a newsletter, too. >> They're fun to write because there isn't >> They're fun to write because there isn't >> They're fun to write because there isn't the pressure that you have on a a big the pressure that you have on a a big the pressure that you have on a a big book or post or podcast or that kind of book or post or podcast or that kind of book or post or podcast or that kind of thing. So, thing. So, thing. So, >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> I enjoy >> I enjoy >> I enjoy >> of low-stakes practice, so. >> of low-stakes practice, so. >> of low-stakes practice, so. >> Uh David, I'm really grateful you made >> Uh David, I'm really grateful you made >> Uh David, I'm really grateful you made the time for this and thank you for your the time for this and thank you for your the time for this and thank you for your contribution to the world, to my contribution to the world, to my contribution to the world, to my audience. I've I'm really grateful for audience. I've I'm really grateful for audience. I've I'm really grateful for this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. >> This was such a pleasure. This was a >> This was such a pleasure. This was a >> This was such a pleasure. This was a really different interview for me. Like really different interview for me. Like really different interview for me. Like you asked a lot of questions that I you asked a lot of questions that I you asked a lot of questions that I haven't been asked and framed things in haven't been asked and framed things in haven't been asked and framed things in interesting ways and I found it kind of interesting ways and I found it kind of interesting ways and I found it kind of inspiring to be the interviewee here. inspiring to be the interviewee here. inspiring to be the interviewee here. So, I really appreciate it. It's very So, I really appreciate it. It's very So, I really appreciate it. It's very different, you know, well, I've done a different, you know, well, I've done a different, you know, well, I've done a fair number of interviews, but fair number of interviews, but fair number of interviews, but >> Yeah, yeah, you're on the junket, right? >> Yeah, yeah, you're on the junket, right? >> Yeah, yeah, you're on the junket, right? The circuit. So. The circuit. So. The circuit. So. >> Yeah, yeah, but this is very different. >> Yeah, yeah, but this is very different. >> Yeah, yeah, but this is very different. >> Well, I'm glad and thanks for showing up >> Well, I'm glad and thanks for showing up >> Well, I'm glad and thanks for showing up for it cuz sometimes it rattles people for it cuz sometimes it rattles people for it cuz sometimes it rattles people and they they don't want to play the and they they don't want to play the and they they don't want to play the game, but I really have enjoyed this and game, but I really have enjoyed this and game, but I really have enjoyed this and I hope it's not our last. So, thank you.

I hope it's not our last. So, thank you. I hope it's not our last. So, thank you. >> Well, we got to everything David and I >> Well, we got to everything David and I >> Well, we got to everything David and I talked about including well, all the talked about including well, all the talked about including well, all the links to things we discussed in the show links to things we discussed in the show links to things we discussed in the show notes and you can find those show notes notes and you can find those show notes notes and you can find those show notes in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join in the Art of Leadership Academy. Join me and well over 20,000 leaders inside me and well over 20,000 leaders inside me and well over 20,000 leaders inside the Academy. That's where you're going the Academy. That's where you're going the Academy. That's where you're going to find the best conversations about the to find the best conversations about the to find the best conversations about the podcast and over 20,000 other podcast and over 20,000 other podcast and over 20,000 other like-minded leaders. So, you can join us like-minded leaders. So, you can join us like-minded leaders. So, you can join us there. Sign up for free today at the art there. Sign up for free today at the art there. Sign up for free today at the art of leadershipacademy.com. Speaking of of leadershipacademy.com. Speaking of of leadershipacademy.com. Speaking of newsletters, you should sign up for newsletters, you should sign up for newsletters, you should sign up for David's. You can also sign up for mine. David's. You can also sign up for mine. David's. You can also sign up for mine. You can go to ontherisenewsletter.com You can go to ontherisenewsletter.com You can go to ontherisenewsletter.com where we try to get it somewhere between where we try to get it somewhere between where we try to get it somewhere between a six and a half and a 10 a six and a half and a 10 a six and a half and a 10 >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> every single week. I send that out every >> every single week. I send that out every >> every single week. I send that out every Friday along with Friday along with Friday along with some other things I think will be a some other things I think will be a some other things I think will be a value to you as a leader. Coming up on value to you as a leader. Coming up on value to you as a leader. Coming up on the podcast, we have Michael Bungay the podcast, we have Michael Bungay the podcast, we have Michael Bungay Stanier, Al Gordon, Matt Chandler, John Stanier, Al Gordon, Matt Chandler, John Stanier, Al Gordon, Matt Chandler, John Ortberg, Kyle Idleman and a lot more. Ortberg, Kyle Idleman and a lot more. Ortberg, Kyle Idleman and a lot more. And if this was helpful to you, maybe And if this was helpful to you, maybe And if this was helpful to you, maybe you could share it with a friend. Hit you could share it with a friend. Hit you could share it with a friend. Hit the share button and leave a rating and the share button and leave a rating and the share button and leave a rating and review. Also, if you're new and you review. Also, if you're new and you review. Also, if you're new and you haven't subscribed yet, just hit follow haven't subscribed yet, just hit follow haven't subscribed yet, just hit follow wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening and you won't miss a you're listening and you won't miss a you're listening and you won't miss a drop of goodness that's coming up and drop of goodness that's coming up and drop of goodness that's coming up and you'll also get access to over 800 you'll also get access to over 800 you'll also get access to over 800 episodes in our archive. Thanks so much episodes in our archive. Thanks so much episodes in our archive. Thanks so much for watching. Thanks so much for for watching. Thanks so much for for watching. Thanks so much for listening today and I hope our time listening today and I hope our time listening today and I hope our time together today has helped you identify together today has helped you identify together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're facing.