The Making of N.T. Wright: His Calling, What He Gave Up, and His Views on Spiritual Warfare

Each time Paul lists principalities and Each time Paul lists principalities and powers, you know, thrones, dominions, powers, you know, thrones, dominions, powers, you know, thrones, dominions, authorities, rulers, etc., etc., It's authorities, rulers, etc., etc., It's authorities, rulers, etc., etc., It's just that he is aware of a shadowy world just that he is aware of a shadowy world just that he is aware of a shadowy world um just behind the veil as it were where um just behind the veil as it were where um just behind the veil as it were where there are whether he called them doni or there are whether he called them doni or there are whether he called them doni or whatever um shadowy little figures who whatever um shadowy little figures who whatever um shadowy little figures who are not divine themselves but they're are not divine themselves but they're are not divine themselves but they're trying to lure you um into the paths of trying to lure you um into the paths of trying to lure you um into the paths of folly and of unfruitfulness for the folly and of unfruitfulness for the folly and of unfruitfulness for the gospel. gospel. gospel. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Today we talk about Leadership Podcast. Today we talk about Leadership Podcast. Today we talk about one of the greatest living New [music] one of the greatest living New [music] one of the greatest living New [music] Testament scholars, maybe the greatest, Testament scholars, maybe the greatest, Testament scholars, maybe the greatest, NT Wright, what made him. We go way NT Wright, what made him. We go way NT Wright, what made him. We go way back. We go to when he was a kid, his back. We go to when he was a kid, his back. We go to when he was a kid, his calling, [music] calling, [music] calling, [music] what he gave up to become the New what he gave up to become the New what he gave up to become the New Testament scholar. He is, his Testament scholar. He is, his Testament scholar. He is, his influences, and also we talk about his influences, and also we talk about his influences, and also we talk about his views on spiritual warfare and views on spiritual warfare and views on spiritual warfare and demonizing [music] demonizing [music] demonizing [music] your enemies. Ent Wright is one of the your enemies. Ent Wright is one of the your enemies. Ent Wright is one of the greatest living minds today. And one of greatest living minds today. And one of greatest living minds today. And one of the things that I'm really passionate the things that I'm really passionate the things that I'm really passionate about is where's the next generation about is where's the next generation about is where's the next generation like of NT writes? Where are they coming like of NT writes? Where are they coming like of NT writes? Where are they coming from? And if you're 18, if you're 20, from? And if you're 18, if you're 20, from? And if you're 18, if you're 20, what do you need to be doing today to be what do you need to be doing today to be what do you need to be doing today to be at 70 who NT Wright is at [music] this at 70 who NT Wright is at [music] this at 70 who NT Wright is at [music] this point in his life? So, I think I I'm point in his life? So, I think I I'm point in his life? So, I think I I'm fascinated by this conversation. I hope fascinated by this conversation. I hope fascinated by this conversation. I hope you will be too. Wherever you watch, be you will be too. Wherever you watch, be you will be too. Wherever you watch, be sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, comment to join the conversation. Now, comment to join the conversation. Now, let's dive into my deep dive with NT let's dive into my deep dive with NT let's dive into my deep dive with NT Wright. Well, Tom, it's so good to talk Wright. Well, Tom, it's so good to talk Wright. Well, Tom, it's so good to talk again. and welcome back to the podcast.

again. and welcome back to the podcast. again. and welcome back to the podcast. >> Thank you. It's good to be with you. >> Thank you. It's good to be with you. >> Thank you. It's good to be with you. >> Yeah. So, I want to go back to a much >> Yeah. So, I want to go back to a much >> Yeah. So, I want to go back to a much earlier time in your life as you and I earlier time in your life as you and I earlier time in your life as you and I were chatting about one of the one of were chatting about one of the one of were chatting about one of the one of the questions I have is how do you the questions I have is how do you the questions I have is how do you become NT right? How do you how you know become NT right? How do you how you know become NT right? How do you how you know and and obviously God creates unique and and obviously God creates unique and and obviously God creates unique people. But when you get to your stage people. But when you get to your stage people. But when you get to your stage of life and there is all of this of life and there is all of this of life and there is all of this compound learning compound learning compound learning >> and you've written so many books and >> and you've written so many books and >> and you've written so many books and could probably write them in your sleep could probably write them in your sleep could probably write them in your sleep with all the reading you've done over with all the reading you've done over with all the reading you've done over the years. I I want to go back um the years. I I want to go back um the years. I I want to go back um decades now. And when was the first time decades now. And when was the first time decades now. And when was the first time that it twigged in you that you might that it twigged in you that you might that it twigged in you that you might become a scholar? become a scholar? become a scholar? >> Well, that's an interesting question. I >> Well, that's an interesting question. I >> Well, that's an interesting question. I didn't know that there was such a thing didn't know that there was such a thing didn't know that there was such a thing as scholarship till I was doing my as scholarship till I was doing my as scholarship till I was doing my undergraduate degree here in Oxford. And undergraduate degree here in Oxford. And undergraduate degree here in Oxford. And it was the philosophy that that really it was the philosophy that that really it was the philosophy that that really caught me first. Though I was really an caught me first. Though I was really an caught me first. Though I was really an ancient historian that was the degree ancient historian that was the degree ancient historian that was the degree was a combination of those two. But was a combination of those two. But was a combination of those two. But until I ran into the Oxford scholars who until I ran into the Oxford scholars who until I ran into the Oxford scholars who were teaching me and then started to were teaching me and then started to were teaching me and then started to read their books and articles, I hadn't read their books and articles, I hadn't read their books and articles, I hadn't really any idea of how the world of really any idea of how the world of really any idea of how the world of scholarship was and worked. I I I I scholarship was and worked. I I I I scholarship was and worked. I I I I don't think I gave it any thought at don't think I gave it any thought at don't think I gave it any thought at all. Um let alone theological all. Um let alone theological all. Um let alone theological scholarship. Um and then it was uh scholarship. Um and then it was uh scholarship. Um and then it was uh undergraduate days when with Christian undergraduate days when with Christian undergraduate days when with Christian friends we started to debate big issues friends we started to debate big issues friends we started to debate big issues about theodysy about um how about theodysy about um how about theodysy about um how justification works about heaven and justification works about heaven and justification works about heaven and hell whatever it was and particularly hell whatever it was and particularly hell whatever it was and particularly about um the meaning of particular about um the meaning of particular about um the meaning of particular biblical passages um that's when I got

biblical passages um that's when I got biblical passages um that's when I got fixated on the letter to the Romans does fixated on the letter to the Romans does fixated on the letter to the Romans does Romans 7 describe the normal Christian Romans 7 describe the normal Christian Romans 7 describe the normal Christian life or is this something from which we life or is this something from which we life or is this something from which we need to move on etc etc and it was need to move on etc etc and it was need to move on etc etc and it was reading around those things which were reading around those things which were reading around those things which were kind of urgent existential questions and kind of urgent existential questions and kind of urgent existential questions and matters of debate between me and friends matters of debate between me and friends matters of debate between me and friends that I realized there was this vast that I realized there was this vast that I realized there was this vast hinterland of commentaries and articles hinterland of commentaries and articles hinterland of commentaries and articles and learned people arguing this way and and learned people arguing this way and and learned people arguing this way and that and uh I just thought well this that and uh I just thought well this that and uh I just thought well this stuff is so important I I need to get in stuff is so important I I need to get in stuff is so important I I need to get in and at least find out what's going on and at least find out what's going on and at least find out what's going on and then um it became like a hobby for and then um it became like a hobby for and then um it became like a hobby for me um and I've often said to research me um and I've often said to research me um and I've often said to research students graduate students unless you students graduate students unless you students graduate students unless you fall in love with the subject you're fall in love with the subject you're fall in love with the subject you're researching. Please don't try and do a researching. Please don't try and do a researching. Please don't try and do a PhD because it's it's hard work means, PhD because it's it's hard work means, PhD because it's it's hard work means, you know, sitting in the library for you know, sitting in the library for you know, sitting in the library for long hours beavering away and puzzling long hours beavering away and puzzling long hours beavering away and puzzling about lines of thought that don't seem about lines of thought that don't seem about lines of thought that don't seem to be going anywhere. You've really got to be going anywhere. You've really got to be going anywhere. You've really got to want to do it. And I was exactly in to want to do it. And I was exactly in to want to do it. And I was exactly in that bracket. I really needed to know that bracket. I really needed to know that bracket. I really needed to know about this stuff. It had gripped me from about this stuff. It had gripped me from about this stuff. It had gripped me from my late teens, early 20s and and it was my late teens, early 20s and and it was my late teens, early 20s and and it was just a question of following through.

just a question of following through. just a question of following through. And then when I realized that there was And then when I realized that there was And then when I realized that there was this whole other larger world of this whole other larger world of this whole other larger world of commentaries and articles and and commentaries and articles and and commentaries and articles and and learned dictionaries and goodness knows learned dictionaries and goodness knows learned dictionaries and goodness knows what. Um then I I I just aspired to what. Um then I I I just aspired to what. Um then I I I just aspired to that. I thought I I need to get in there that. I thought I I need to get in there that. I thought I I need to get in there really so that I can learn. But then really so that I can learn. But then really so that I can learn. But then gradually when I started to realize that gradually when I started to realize that gradually when I started to realize that some of the people who were writing some of the people who were writing some of the people who were writing apparently influential things, I I apparently influential things, I I apparently influential things, I I thought, "Oh, they've missed a trick thought, "Oh, they've missed a trick thought, "Oh, they've missed a trick there. Surely that's not what that verse there. Surely that's not what that verse there. Surely that's not what that verse means." And then then you're into it. means." And then then you're into it. means." And then then you're into it. Then there's no escape. Um and unless Then there's no escape. Um and unless Then there's no escape. Um and unless you you know unless you decide to run you you know unless you decide to run you you know unless you decide to run away to sea or go and be an opera singer away to sea or go and be an opera singer away to sea or go and be an opera singer or something instead then then you're or something instead then then you're or something instead then then you're right into it. And and I was and and right into it. And and I was and and right into it. And and I was and and still am. still am. still am. >> But of course you still are. >> But of course you still are. >> But of course you still are. >> The thing is it has changed enormously. >> The thing is it has changed enormously. >> The thing is it has changed enormously. And now the real debates don't take And now the real debates don't take And now the real debates don't take place in the pages of learned journals. place in the pages of learned journals. place in the pages of learned journals. There are still learned journals. I There are still learned journals. I There are still learned journals. I still take one or two. But actually still take one or two. But actually still take one or two. But actually whereas before a scholar would publish whereas before a scholar would publish whereas before a scholar would publish an article and then in a year or 18 an article and then in a year or 18 an article and then in a year or 18 months someone else would publish an months someone else would publish an months someone else would publish an article trying to refute it or nuance it article trying to refute it or nuance it article trying to refute it or nuance it or whatever and there's a very slow or whatever and there's a very slow or whatever and there's a very slow process and you'd go to conferences process and you'd go to conferences process and you'd go to conferences where people would be trying out the where people would be trying out the where people would be trying out the ideas that would turn up in articles.

ideas that would turn up in articles. ideas that would turn up in articles. Now it's all um online and podcasts and Now it's all um online and podcasts and Now it's all um online and podcasts and Substacks and um and people doing Substacks and um and people doing Substacks and um and people doing daybyday reports on what they're reading daybyday reports on what they're reading daybyday reports on what they're reading and what they're thinking and then and what they're thinking and then and what they're thinking and then younger scholars diving into this and so younger scholars diving into this and so younger scholars diving into this and so on. And I I'm I'm both sorry that I'm on. And I I'm I'm both sorry that I'm on. And I I'm I'm both sorry that I'm not of an age where I can do that and not of an age where I can do that and not of an age where I can do that and actually secretly rather glad. Um I I actually secretly rather glad. Um I I actually secretly rather glad. Um I I preferred the older way and I I'm now um preferred the older way and I I'm now um preferred the older way and I I'm now um near than 50. I'm I'm in my late 70s. Um near than 50. I'm I'm in my late 70s. Um near than 50. I'm I'm in my late 70s. Um and and I just think good on you guys. and and I just think good on you guys. and and I just think good on you guys. Um go for it. I hope it works out. But Um go for it. I hope it works out. But Um go for it. I hope it works out. But it's that's not been my style. it's that's not been my style. it's that's not been my style. >> If we were to go back to you at age 6, >> If we were to go back to you at age 6, >> If we were to go back to you at age 6, 8, 10, were you a bookish child? Were 8, 10, were you a bookish child? Were 8, 10, were you a bookish child? Were you uh always had your nose in a book? you uh always had your nose in a book? you uh always had your nose in a book? Were you a happy golucky? Like what was Were you a happy golucky? Like what was Were you a happy golucky? Like what was what was the very young Tom Wright like? what was the very young Tom Wright like? what was the very young Tom Wright like? >> Yeah, I I wasn't particularly bookish. I >> Yeah, I I wasn't particularly bookish. I >> Yeah, I I wasn't particularly bookish. I mean, we did have plenty of books around mean, we did have plenty of books around mean, we did have plenty of books around the house and my mother would read the house and my mother would read the house and my mother would read things to me and my my sisters just a things to me and my my sisters just a things to me and my my sisters just a year older than me and my other two year older than me and my other two year older than me and my other two brothers came along a lot later. Um, and brothers came along a lot later. Um, and brothers came along a lot later. Um, and and so, for instance, when the Narnia and so, for instance, when the Narnia and so, for instance, when the Narnia stories came out in the 1950s, we were stories came out in the 1950s, we were stories came out in the 1950s, we were we were on first editions because we we we were on first editions because we we we were on first editions because we we got them when they came out and my got them when they came out and my got them when they came out and my mother read them to my sister and me and mother read them to my sister and me and mother read them to my sister and me and so we were in on on in on the ground so we were in on on in on the ground so we were in on on in on the ground floor for The Lion, the Witch in the floor for The Lion, the Witch in the floor for The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe. And once you've discovered CS Wardrobe. And once you've discovered CS Wardrobe. And once you've discovered CS Lewis, then there's there's a way across Lewis, then there's there's a way across Lewis, then there's there's a way across into other things as well. Not not least

into other things as well. Not not least into other things as well. Not not least when I was a teenager getting into when I was a teenager getting into when I was a teenager getting into Lewis's um slightly more adult stuff Lewis's um slightly more adult stuff Lewis's um slightly more adult stuff like Screw Tape Letters and then finally like Screw Tape Letters and then finally like Screw Tape Letters and then finally his more seriously more adult stuff. Um his more seriously more adult stuff. Um his more seriously more adult stuff. Um but uh no I I wasn't I wasn't hugely but uh no I I wasn't I wasn't hugely but uh no I I wasn't I wasn't hugely bookish at that stage partly because I bookish at that stage partly because I bookish at that stage partly because I was very keen on two other things namely was very keen on two other things namely was very keen on two other things namely sport and music. you know, if there was sport and music. you know, if there was sport and music. you know, if there was ever a ball to kick or throw or hit, ever a ball to kick or throw or hit, ever a ball to kick or throw or hit, then I'd be right there and I would be then I'd be right there and I would be then I'd be right there and I would be dashing outside the house to join in dashing outside the house to join in dashing outside the house to join in with whichever game was going on. Um with whichever game was going on. Um with whichever game was going on. Um likewise um I sang in the local church likewise um I sang in the local church likewise um I sang in the local church choir and I loved music and um we we had choir and I loved music and um we we had choir and I loved music and um we we had a primitive record player as we called a primitive record player as we called a primitive record player as we called them in those days and and I would save them in those days and and I would save them in those days and and I would save up my money to buy records of I don't up my money to buy records of I don't up my money to buy records of I don't know choruses from the Messiah or know choruses from the Messiah or know choruses from the Messiah or whatever it was things that I was whatever it was things that I was whatever it was things that I was singing in the church choir that I singing in the church choir that I singing in the church choir that I wanted to hear other people singing. And wanted to hear other people singing. And wanted to hear other people singing. And so sport and music were were really um so sport and music were were really um so sport and music were were really um more important to me. But of course more important to me. But of course more important to me. But of course singing in a church choir means you singing in a church choir means you singing in a church choir means you can't avoid um the psalms and the can't avoid um the psalms and the can't avoid um the psalms and the gospels and the regular reading of the gospels and the regular reading of the gospels and the regular reading of the whole of scripture more or less in the whole of scripture more or less in the whole of scripture more or less in the lectionary. And so though I wasn't lectionary. And so though I wasn't lectionary. And so though I wasn't particularly well taught and it wasn't a particularly well taught and it wasn't a particularly well taught and it wasn't a sort of church which majored on Bible sort of church which majored on Bible sort of church which majored on Bible teaching socalled the steady drip feed teaching socalled the steady drip feed teaching socalled the steady drip feed week by week of hearing at least mildly week by week of hearing at least mildly week by week of hearing at least mildly intelligent sermons um and and and intelligent sermons um and and and intelligent sermons um and and and singing the stuff and the hymns and so singing the stuff and the hymns and so singing the stuff and the hymns and so on. Um all of that is is was quite on. Um all of that is is was quite on. Um all of that is is was quite formative and uh I look back now and

formative and uh I look back now and formative and uh I look back now and realize yeah the sort of hymns we sang realize yeah the sort of hymns we sang realize yeah the sort of hymns we sang the the him hymns by Charles Wesley or the the him hymns by Charles Wesley or the the him hymns by Charles Wesley or Isaac Watts or whatever the great the Isaac Watts or whatever the great the Isaac Watts or whatever the great the great hymns in the in the in the modern great hymns in the in the in the modern great hymns in the in the in the modern western tradition um those formed me and western tradition um those formed me and western tradition um those formed me and shaped me as much as any reading I was shaped me as much as any reading I was shaped me as much as any reading I was doing which if I can just drop in one of doing which if I can just drop in one of doing which if I can just drop in one of the delights of my life at the moment is the delights of my life at the moment is the delights of my life at the moment is that I have a 9-year-old grandson who that I have a 9-year-old grandson who that I have a 9-year-old grandson who has just been officially ly sworn in as has just been officially ly sworn in as has just been officially ly sworn in as a chister in New College Chapel Choir, a chister in New College Chapel Choir, a chister in New College Chapel Choir, which is right across the street from which is right across the street from which is right across the street from where I'm sitting in Oxford. And it's where I'm sitting in Oxford. And it's where I'm sitting in Oxford. And it's one of the finest men and boys choirs. I one of the finest men and boys choirs. I one of the finest men and boys choirs. I I think it's fair to say one of the I think it's fair to say one of the I think it's fair to say one of the finest men and boys choirs in the world. finest men and boys choirs in the world. finest men and boys choirs in the world. And to watch him now at age nine singing And to watch him now at age nine singing And to watch him now at age nine singing the psalms, singing the hymns, singing the psalms, singing the hymns, singing the psalms, singing the hymns, singing them, the great settings of the them, the great settings of the them, the great settings of the Magnificat, h does my heart good. the Magnificat, h does my heart good. the Magnificat, h does my heart good. the thought that that's now he's embibing thought that that's now he's embibing thought that that's now he's embibing that even though he's in an electronic that even though he's in an electronic that even though he's in an electronic culture um that stuff still is there and culture um that stuff still is there and culture um that stuff still is there and still matters. Anyway, sorry that's bit still matters. Anyway, sorry that's bit still matters. Anyway, sorry that's bit but but but >> that's [clears throat] fantastic. >> that's [clears throat] fantastic. >> that's [clears throat] fantastic. [snorts] What what were some other early [snorts] What what were some other early [snorts] What what were some other early influences that shaped you in your influences that shaped you in your influences that shaped you in your childhood in your teen years before you childhood in your teen years before you childhood in your teen years before you got to Oxford the first time? Well, um, got to Oxford the first time? Well, um, got to Oxford the first time? Well, um, my mother's father, my grandfa, maternal my mother's father, my grandfa, maternal my mother's father, my grandfa, maternal grandfather, was a parish priest who grandfather, was a parish priest who grandfather, was a parish priest who became an arch deacon. And I remember became an arch deacon. And I remember became an arch deacon. And I remember him vividly. He was a delightful man and him vividly. He was a delightful man and him vividly. He was a delightful man and great fun to be with, and he'd been a great fun to be with, and he'd been a great fun to be with, and he'd been a great cricketer in the days of his youth great cricketer in the days of his youth great cricketer in the days of his youth and always had stories about this and and always had stories about this and and always had stories about this and that and the other. But there he was that and the other. But there he was that and the other. But there he was taking services week by week and taking services week by week and taking services week by week and preaching sermons and I would go and be preaching sermons and I would go and be preaching sermons and I would go and be with them and and hear that. And um, as

with them and and hear that. And um, as with them and and hear that. And um, as kind of an easy influence with there was kind of an easy influence with there was kind of an easy influence with there was no hard cell. There was no now then no hard cell. There was no now then no hard cell. There was no now then young man, what does this mean to you? young man, what does this mean to you? young man, what does this mean to you? It was just kind of assumed this is who It was just kind of assumed this is who It was just kind of assumed this is who we are as a family um and and you kind we are as a family um and and you kind we are as a family um and and you kind of join in um and start saying your own of join in um and start saying your own of join in um and start saying your own prayers and and then when I was about prayers and and then when I was about prayers and and then when I was about 12, somebody from the scripture union 12, somebody from the scripture union 12, somebody from the scripture union actually came to my school and um I'm actually came to my school and um I'm actually came to my school and um I'm not sure why the school let them do this not sure why the school let them do this not sure why the school let them do this because it wasn't a specifically because it wasn't a specifically because it wasn't a specifically Christian school, but these people Christian school, but these people Christian school, but these people suggested that there was this thing suggested that there was this thing suggested that there was this thing called the Bible and some people liked called the Bible and some people liked called the Bible and some people liked reading it every day. and here were some reading it every day. and here were some reading it every day. and here were some notes that would help you. Um, and I notes that would help you. Um, and I notes that would help you. Um, and I think I was probably 12 years old and it think I was probably 12 years old and it think I was probably 12 years old and it seemed to me a good idea at the time and seemed to me a good idea at the time and seemed to me a good idea at the time and so I started reading the Bible every day so I started reading the Bible every day so I started reading the Bible every day and I've never seen any good reason to and I've never seen any good reason to and I've never seen any good reason to stop. Um, of course the pattern of stop. Um, of course the pattern of stop. Um, of course the pattern of reading has changed over the years. I reading has changed over the years. I reading has changed over the years. I now read in the original languages and now read in the original languages and now read in the original languages and so on. But um uh the the habit the daily so on. But um uh the the habit the daily so on. But um uh the the habit the daily you know if if the day starts if say you know if if the day starts if say you know if if the day starts if say when I'm traveling around the world or when I'm traveling around the world or when I'm traveling around the world or whatever it is I if the day has started whatever it is I if the day has started whatever it is I if the day has started without some Bible reading um I I have without some Bible reading um I I have without some Bible reading um I I have this sense that I haven't quite got the this sense that I haven't quite got the this sense that I haven't quite got the right clothes on you know something's right clothes on you know something's right clothes on you know something's wrong wrong wrong >> I'm familiar with that >> I'm familiar with that >> I'm familiar with that >> something's wrong with today. Um but >> something's wrong with today. Um but >> something's wrong with today. Um but then I had one or two very fine then I had one or two very fine then I had one or two very fine influences because I then started going influences because I then started going influences because I then started going to the boys camps that were run by the to the boys camps that were run by the to the boys camps that were run by the scripture union in Scotland. Um uh scripture union in Scotland. Um uh scripture union in Scotland. Um uh through I think the first one I went to through I think the first one I went to through I think the first one I went to I was just 13 and I went uh every Easter

I was just 13 and I went uh every Easter I was just 13 and I went uh every Easter holidays and every summer holidays holidays and every summer holidays holidays and every summer holidays through my teens and I would not miss through my teens and I would not miss through my teens and I would not miss it. And of course twothirds of that was it. And of course twothirds of that was it. And of course twothirds of that was that we were climbing mountains and that we were climbing mountains and that we were climbing mountains and doing rock climbing and canoeing and doing rock climbing and canoeing and doing rock climbing and canoeing and sailing and we were camping outside and sailing and we were camping outside and sailing and we were camping outside and doing all the fun stuff. Um but there doing all the fun stuff. Um but there doing all the fun stuff. Um but there were morning and evening prayers quite were morning and evening prayers quite were morning and evening prayers quite short um semiformal but with short good short um semiformal but with short good short um semiformal but with short good talks by the camp leaders. Um basically talks by the camp leaders. Um basically talks by the camp leaders. Um basically a good old-fashioned 1950s um British a good old-fashioned 1950s um British a good old-fashioned 1950s um British evangelical message. Um and uh I I I evangelical message. Um and uh I I I evangelical message. Um and uh I I I just soaked it in. I I I took it all in just soaked it in. I I I took it all in just soaked it in. I I I took it all in and learned the verses and did the and learned the verses and did the and learned the verses and did the stuff. Um only now looking back a lot stuff. Um only now looking back a lot stuff. Um only now looking back a lot later I think there were some ways in later I think there were some ways in later I think there were some ways in which that tradition needed to shake up which that tradition needed to shake up which that tradition needed to shake up etc etc. But it's good stuff. It's based etc etc. But it's good stuff. It's based etc etc. But it's good stuff. It's based on you know we're talking about Jesus, on you know we're talking about Jesus, on you know we're talking about Jesus, we're talking about the cross and we're talking about the cross and we're talking about the cross and resurrection. We're talking about God resurrection. We're talking about God resurrection. We're talking about God and you getting it together and sort of and you getting it together and sort of and you getting it together and sort of what's not to like. Um, so, so that was what's not to like. Um, so, so that was what's not to like. Um, so, so that was that was the the backbone of my my that was the the backbone of my my that was the the backbone of my my specifically Christian experience specifically Christian experience specifically Christian experience through my teens. And when I was at home through my teens. And when I was at home through my teens. And when I was at home in the school holidays, I was at a in the school holidays, I was at a in the school holidays, I was at a boarding school. When I was at home in boarding school. When I was at home in boarding school. When I was at home in the school holidays, I would go to the school holidays, I would go to the school holidays, I would go to church with my family, which both was church with my family, which both was church with my family, which both was and wasn't helpful. It would keep the and wasn't helpful. It would keep the and wasn't helpful. It would keep the wheels turning, but it wasn't a wheels turning, but it wasn't a wheels turning, but it wasn't a particularly um, high octane teaching particularly um, high octane teaching particularly um, high octane teaching place. Um but I was by then reading place. Um but I was by then reading place. Um but I was by then reading stuff that I could get my hands on. Um stuff that I could get my hands on. Um stuff that I could get my hands on. Um and just wanting to know more and and just wanting to know more and and just wanting to know more and explore more and particularly studying

explore more and particularly studying explore more and particularly studying the Bible became a hobby through my mid- the Bible became a hobby through my mid- the Bible became a hobby through my mid- teens and there were two or three teens and there were two or three teens and there were two or three friends from from the scripture union friends from from the scripture union friends from from the scripture union camps. We we would we would write camps. We we would we would write camps. We we would we would write letters to each other in the days when letters to each other in the days when letters to each other in the days when people still wrote letters. You know people still wrote letters. You know people still wrote letters. You know >> there was no texting, no email. So you >> there was no texting, no email. So you >> there was no texting, no email. So you wrote a letter. wrote a letter. wrote a letter. >> Exactly. Today it would have been >> Exactly. Today it would have been >> Exactly. Today it would have been emails. But then it was it was you know emails. But then it was it was you know emails. But then it was it was you know I've been I've been reading Romans I've been I've been reading Romans I've been I've been reading Romans chapter whatever um and I'm just puzzled chapter whatever um and I'm just puzzled chapter whatever um and I'm just puzzled about what Paul says here. What do you about what Paul says here. What do you about what Paul says here. What do you think? And then you know a week later think? And then you know a week later think? And then you know a week later you might get a response in the the slow you might get a response in the the slow you might get a response in the the slow postal system. Um but um so that was postal system. Um but um so that was postal system. Um but um so that was that was just part of who I was and as I that was just part of who I was and as I that was just part of who I was and as I say it was like a hobby but a very say it was like a hobby but a very say it was like a hobby but a very exciting one. exciting one. exciting one. >> When when did you first sense a call so >> When when did you first sense a call so >> When when did you first sense a call so to speak to ministry? What was that like to speak to ministry? What was that like to speak to ministry? What was that like for you? How did it show up? Or it was for you? How did it show up? Or it was for you? How did it show up? Or it was like, "Oh, this is the family tradition like, "Oh, this is the family tradition like, "Oh, this is the family tradition and off to uh seminary I go." and off to uh seminary I go." and off to uh seminary I go." >> I I Yes. A I didn't know anything about >> I I Yes. A I didn't know anything about >> I I Yes. A I didn't know anything about seminaries, seminaries, seminaries, but b um actually my my father and his but b um actually my my father and his but b um actually my my father and his father uh and going back I think my father uh and going back I think my father uh and going back I think my father was fifth generation father to father was fifth generation father to father was fifth generation father to son. They ran a family firm in the son. They ran a family firm in the son. They ran a family firm in the northeast of England which was um what northeast of England which was um what northeast of England which was um what you would call a lumber firm. They would you would call a lumber firm. They would you would call a lumber firm. They would import um timber from various places and import um timber from various places and import um timber from various places and then joinery manufacturer along with the then joinery manufacturer along with the then joinery manufacturer along with the building trade. And when I was very building trade. And when I was very building trade. And when I was very young um knowing that my father had young um knowing that my father had young um knowing that my father had taken this on from his father who' taken taken this on from his father who' taken taken this on from his father who' taken it on from his father etc. I just it on from his father etc. I just it on from his father etc. I just assumed that's how the world worked and assumed that's how the world worked and assumed that's how the world worked and that one day I would take on the that one day I would take on the that one day I would take on the business myself. Um and uh by the time I business myself. Um and uh by the time I business myself. Um and uh by the time I was about seven or eight I was quite

was about seven or eight I was quite was about seven or eight I was quite worried about that because I could see worried about that because I could see worried about that because I could see what my father was doing and it didn't what my father was doing and it didn't what my father was doing and it didn't attract me at all. So at seven or eight, attract me at all. So at seven or eight, attract me at all. So at seven or eight, you had this sense that I'm not going to you had this sense that I'm not going to you had this sense that I'm not going to do this with do this with do this with >> well that that that I wasn't sure how >> well that that that I wasn't sure how >> well that that that I wasn't sure how this was going to work for me this was going to work for me this was going to work for me particularly because around that same particularly because around that same particularly because around that same time I was aware that I would like to be time I was aware that I would like to be time I was aware that I would like to be like my other grandfather. In other like my other grandfather. In other like my other grandfather. In other words, that I I would like to be taking words, that I I would like to be taking words, that I I would like to be taking services and preaching sermons and services and preaching sermons and services and preaching sermons and leading worship and so on. I didn't leading worship and so on. I didn't leading worship and so on. I didn't really have much sense of what else a really have much sense of what else a really have much sense of what else a parish priest does, an ordained minister parish priest does, an ordained minister parish priest does, an ordained minister does. Um, obviously most pastoral work does. Um, obviously most pastoral work does. Um, obviously most pastoral work is behind a screen. You don't see it is behind a screen. You don't see it is behind a screen. You don't see it from the ordinary popular point of view. from the ordinary popular point of view. from the ordinary popular point of view. Um, but uh I I I had that sense that so Um, but uh I I I had that sense that so Um, but uh I I I had that sense that so so I when I still thought I was going to so I when I still thought I was going to so I when I still thought I was going to have to be running the family firm, I have to be running the family firm, I have to be running the family firm, I assumed that maybe I would be able to assumed that maybe I would be able to assumed that maybe I would be able to find some uh lay role, some non-ordained find some uh lay role, some non-ordained find some uh lay role, some non-ordained role in the church where I would still role in the church where I would still role in the church where I would still be able to do some things. And then one be able to do some things. And then one be able to do some things. And then one day when I was I don't know nine or 10 day when I was I don't know nine or 10 day when I was I don't know nine or 10 um my father said to me one day um my father said to me one day um my father said to me one day something quite casually about when you something quite casually about when you something quite casually about when you decide what you want to do with your decide what you want to do with your decide what you want to do with your life. And I remember vividly that moment life. And I remember vividly that moment life. And I remember vividly that moment to this day I remember it um thinking oh to this day I remember it um thinking oh to this day I remember it um thinking oh you mean I have a choice. Okay I you mean I have a choice. Okay I you mean I have a choice. Okay I [laughter] know exactly what I'm going [laughter] know exactly what I'm going [laughter] know exactly what I'm going to do with my life. Again being very to do with my life. Again being very to do with my life. Again being very ignorant about what ordained life ignorant about what ordained life ignorant about what ordained life actually looks like and and consists of.

actually looks like and and consists of. actually looks like and and consists of. Um, and it was only then, so that I Um, and it was only then, so that I Um, and it was only then, so that I lived on that through my teens. And it lived on that through my teens. And it lived on that through my teens. And it was only then when I was in Oxford and was only then when I was in Oxford and was only then when I was in Oxford and enormously enjoying the philosophy and enormously enjoying the philosophy and enormously enjoying the philosophy and then the theology that I realized that then the theology that I realized that then the theology that I realized that though I was still called definitely to though I was still called definitely to though I was still called definitely to be a preacher and teacher, um, actually be a preacher and teacher, um, actually be a preacher and teacher, um, actually I was more being called into the I was more being called into the I was more being called into the academic world rather than an ordinary academic world rather than an ordinary academic world rather than an ordinary parish life. And I I regret that and I parish life. And I I regret that and I parish life. And I I regret that and I don't regret it. Both my brothers-in-law don't regret it. Both my brothers-in-law don't regret it. Both my brothers-in-law are retired parish clergy and I've seen are retired parish clergy and I've seen are retired parish clergy and I've seen close up um what the life of a parish close up um what the life of a parish close up um what the life of a parish priest is like and and it's a wonderful priest is like and and it's a wonderful priest is like and and it's a wonderful thing. It's very hard work, very unsung thing. It's very hard work, very unsung thing. It's very hard work, very unsung hero kind of thing, but I really honor hero kind of thing, but I really honor hero kind of thing, but I really honor that calling and regret that I didn't that calling and regret that I didn't that calling and regret that I didn't have it. I had my equivalent was to be have it. I had my equivalent was to be have it. I had my equivalent was to be running a cathedral for five years and running a cathedral for five years and running a cathedral for five years and then running a dasis for seven years then running a dasis for seven years then running a dasis for seven years with various other things. um but really with various other things. um but really with various other things. um but really honoring the the work of the local honoring the the work of the local honoring the the work of the local clergy particularly and doing my best to clergy particularly and doing my best to clergy particularly and doing my best to support them. So it's been a it's been a support them. So it's been a it's been a support them. So it's been a it's been a peculiar path which nobody sensible peculiar path which nobody sensible peculiar path which nobody sensible would have mapped out in advance. I mean would have mapped out in advance. I mean would have mapped out in advance. I mean why would you um and I've had to why would you um and I've had to why would you um and I've had to oscillate between the academic and the oscillate between the academic and the oscillate between the academic and the pastoral um which I think has probably pastoral um which I think has probably pastoral um which I think has probably been good in terms of my understanding been good in terms of my understanding been good in terms of my understanding of scripture. Um but it's been quite of scripture. Um but it's been quite of scripture. Um but it's been quite costly um all the moves of house etc.

costly um all the moves of house etc. costly um all the moves of house etc. Particularly for my dear wife um who is Particularly for my dear wife um who is Particularly for my dear wife um who is the real hero of the story from from the real hero of the story from from the real hero of the story from from when we met onwards. when we met onwards. when we met onwards. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by compassion. Hey church you know living compassion. Hey church you know living compassion. Hey church you know living this life as a fully surrendered this life as a fully surrendered this life as a fully surrendered believer in Jesus. I personally am believer in Jesus. I personally am believer in Jesus. I personally am challenged by what it means to truly challenged by what it means to truly challenged by what it means to truly have compassion for others and to be have compassion for others and to be have compassion for others and to be moved by Jesus to have a spirit of moved by Jesus to have a spirit of moved by Jesus to have a spirit of generous and compassionate living. Our generous and compassionate living. Our generous and compassionate living. Our culture is so selfish, right? So, as a culture is so selfish, right? So, as a culture is so selfish, right? So, as a pastor, I I got to wonder how is that pastor, I I got to wonder how is that pastor, I I got to wonder how is that going for you, your family, and your going for you, your family, and your going for you, your family, and your community? Do you feel a deep sense of community? Do you feel a deep sense of community? Do you feel a deep sense of compassion? Are you kind of numb to it? compassion? Are you kind of numb to it? compassion? Are you kind of numb to it? Because that's what leadership does to Because that's what leadership does to Because that's what leadership does to you, right? And could you imagine what you, right? And could you imagine what you, right? And could you imagine what would change if you did feel compassion? would change if you did feel compassion? would change if you did feel compassion? If you really felt that? I've spent If you really felt that? I've spent If you really felt that? I've spent years building strong relationships with years building strong relationships with years building strong relationships with believers around the world who are believers around the world who are believers around the world who are working to exemplify what it means to working to exemplify what it means to working to exemplify what it means to live lives of generosity. As we live lives of generosity. As we live lives of generosity. As we celebrate the birth of our savior Jesus celebrate the birth of our savior Jesus celebrate the birth of our savior Jesus this season, I want you to visit my this season, I want you to visit my this season, I want you to visit my friends at Compassion International to friends at Compassion International to friends at Compassion International to learn about how you, your family, and learn about how you, your family, and learn about how you, your family, and your church can put your faith in action your church can put your faith in action your church can put your faith in action right now. That's something I'm doing right now. That's something I'm doing right now. That's something I'm doing with the families that we sponsor. You with the families that we sponsor. You with the families that we sponsor. You can find out more at can find out more at can find out more at compassion.com/carry.

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art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look forward to seeing you inside. Well, that forward to seeing you inside. Well, that forward to seeing you inside. Well, that itinerant life can be really difficult itinerant life can be really difficult itinerant life can be really difficult in ministry as well, Tom. You know, in ministry as well, Tom. You know, in ministry as well, Tom. You know, where you're moving house to house every where you're moving house to house every where you're moving house to house every few years. It's funny. We thought that I few years. It's funny. We thought that I few years. It's funny. We thought that I mean we've been in the same place for 30 mean we've been in the same place for 30 mean we've been in the same place for 30 years, but when my wife and I got years, but when my wife and I got years, but when my wife and I got married, we talked about back then in married, we talked about back then in married, we talked about back then in 1990, you still registered for things 1990, you still registered for things 1990, you still registered for things and you got dishes and so on. And she and you got dishes and so on. And she and you got dishes and so on. And she says, "Well, we have to have white says, "Well, we have to have white says, "Well, we have to have white dishes because we're going to be moving dishes because we're going to be moving dishes because we're going to be moving every 3 to 5 years and they have to fit every 3 to 5 years and they have to fit every 3 to 5 years and they have to fit in wherever we are. So, we still have a in wherever we are. So, we still have a in wherever we are. So, we still have a set of white dishes." And ironically, set of white dishes." And ironically, set of white dishes." And ironically, we've been in the same community for 30 we've been in the same community for 30 we've been in the same community for 30 years. years. years. >> Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the costs >> Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the costs >> Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the costs of of ministry that you see from the of of ministry that you see from the of of ministry that you see from the seat that you're in? And I mean, you're seat that you're in? And I mean, you're seat that you're in? And I mean, you're I I said to you when we got on, you're I I said to you when we got on, you're I I said to you when we got on, you're always meeting with pastors. You were always meeting with pastors. You were always meeting with pastors. You were last week with a group of pastors that I last week with a group of pastors that I last week with a group of pastors that I think Steven Foster brought in or you're think Steven Foster brought in or you're think Steven Foster brought in or you're meeting with new alpha leaders or meeting with new alpha leaders or meeting with new alpha leaders or cohorts from North America that have cohorts from North America that have cohorts from North America that have come over to visit with you. When you come over to visit with you. When you come over to visit with you. When you see what pastors dayto-day are bearing, see what pastors dayto-day are bearing, see what pastors dayto-day are bearing, what do you notice? H I mean I do see a what do you notice? H I mean I do see a what do you notice? H I mean I do see a lot of excitement at the moment because lot of excitement at the moment because lot of excitement at the moment because right now it seems to be the case that right now it seems to be the case that right now it seems to be the case that quite unexpectedly on both sides of the quite unexpectedly on both sides of the quite unexpectedly on both sides of the Atlantic quite a lot of young people Atlantic quite a lot of young people Atlantic quite a lot of young people including quite a lot of young men are including quite a lot of young men are including quite a lot of young men are coming into church without necessarily coming into church without necessarily coming into church without necessarily having a big cell a hard push you know having a big cell a hard push you know having a big cell a hard push you know that it isn't that Billy Graham's been that it isn't that Billy Graham's been that it isn't that Billy Graham's been in town or whatever. I I hear stories of in town or whatever. I I hear stories of in town or whatever. I I hear stories of people just walking down a street and

people just walking down a street and people just walking down a street and seeing this big building and thinking, seeing this big building and thinking, seeing this big building and thinking, "I wonder what goes on in there." And um "I wonder what goes on in there." And um "I wonder what goes on in there." And um rolling in and finding there's some rolling in and finding there's some rolling in and finding there's some music and people are very nice and music and people are very nice and music and people are very nice and there's not the coffee is not bad and there's not the coffee is not bad and there's not the coffee is not bad and and then you know within 6 months and then you know within 6 months and then you know within 6 months they're leading a Bible study group and they're leading a Bible study group and they're leading a Bible study group and you think how does that you think how does that you think how does that >> stuff I've never seen in my life. Have >> stuff I've never seen in my life. Have >> stuff I've never seen in my life. Have you seen that? you seen that? you seen that? >> Quite quite. So I think there are great >> Quite quite. So I think there are great >> Quite quite. So I think there are great ex there's great excitement at the ex there's great excitement at the ex there's great excitement at the moment but of course um life in ministry moment but of course um life in ministry moment but of course um life in ministry is is hard. It's tough. It's very is is hard. It's tough. It's very is is hard. It's tough. It's very demanding. Um not least because if demanding. Um not least because if demanding. Um not least because if you're doing it well, it it grows. You you're doing it well, it it grows. You you're doing it well, it it grows. You know, if you if you are a good pastor, know, if you if you are a good pastor, know, if you if you are a good pastor, then word gradually gets well quite then word gradually gets well quite then word gradually gets well quite quickly gets around. Oh, I should go and quickly gets around. Oh, I should go and quickly gets around. Oh, I should go and talk to Jim or Fred or whoever it is talk to Jim or Fred or whoever it is talk to Jim or Fred or whoever it is because he's really very helpful and because he's really very helpful and because he's really very helpful and he'd be very kind. And so Jim or Fred or he'd be very kind. And so Jim or Fred or he'd be very kind. And so Jim or Fred or whoever it is finds that his date book whoever it is finds that his date book whoever it is finds that his date book gets filled up with with pastoral um gets filled up with with pastoral um gets filled up with with pastoral um visits. Um and and you know that that is visits. Um and and you know that that is visits. Um and and you know that that is exhausting and especially since quite a exhausting and especially since quite a exhausting and especially since quite a lot of quite a lot of very good clergy lot of quite a lot of very good clergy lot of quite a lot of very good clergy are actually introverts rather than are actually introverts rather than are actually introverts rather than extroverts like me then for an introvert extroverts like me then for an introvert extroverts like me then for an introvert to have four or five pastoral visits in to have four or five pastoral visits in to have four or five pastoral visits in a day is really draining and if at the a day is really draining and if at the a day is really draining and if at the same time they're in the back of their same time they're in the back of their same time they're in the back of their mind they're thinking about the Sunday mind they're thinking about the Sunday mind they're thinking about the Sunday sermon or they're thinking about some sermon or they're thinking about some sermon or they're thinking about some larger issue in the church which they larger issue in the church which they larger issue in the church which they and their friends are wrestling with um and their friends are wrestling with um and their friends are wrestling with um it it is tiring it is exhausting and it it is tiring it is exhausting and it it is tiring it is exhausting and wise clergy and their families um factor wise clergy and their families um factor wise clergy and their families um factor in time away um and and proper holidays in time away um and and proper holidays in time away um and and proper holidays etc. But it is difficult not least

etc. But it is difficult not least etc. But it is difficult not least because of course certainly in the because of course certainly in the because of course certainly in the church of England um clergy do not get church of England um clergy do not get church of England um clergy do not get very much um stipen their their very much um stipen their their very much um stipen their their remuneration package is not not very remuneration package is not not very remuneration package is not not very substantial okay it seems to be pretty substantial okay it seems to be pretty substantial okay it seems to be pretty universal universal universal >> house isn't up to much either but um so >> house isn't up to much either but um so >> house isn't up to much either but um so so it is it is tough and and the other so it is it is tough and and the other so it is it is tough and and the other thing is if you're doing it um half thing is if you're doing it um half thing is if you're doing it um half decently if you're preaching wisely and decently if you're preaching wisely and decently if you're preaching wisely and well and powerfully there will be well and powerfully there will be well and powerfully there will be counterattacks there will be people in counterattacks there will be people in counterattacks there will be people in the congregation who grumble. There will the congregation who grumble. There will the congregation who grumble. There will be colleagues who undermine you. There be colleagues who undermine you. There be colleagues who undermine you. There will be sudden temptations where you'll will be sudden temptations where you'll will be sudden temptations where you'll be uh in danger of being pulled off in be uh in danger of being pulled off in be uh in danger of being pulled off in in some quite dangerous and damaging in some quite dangerous and damaging in some quite dangerous and damaging directions. Not to mention the constant directions. Not to mention the constant directions. Not to mention the constant wrestle with am I expounding this wrestle with am I expounding this wrestle with am I expounding this passage right and supposing I'm getting passage right and supposing I'm getting passage right and supposing I'm getting that bit wrong? I'm actually leading that bit wrong? I'm actually leading that bit wrong? I'm actually leading people astray. Um so all of these people astray. Um so all of these people astray. Um so all of these things, you know, it's not just okay, things, you know, it's not just okay, things, you know, it's not just okay, I'm now ordained, so we just follow on I'm now ordained, so we just follow on I'm now ordained, so we just follow on down the line. you know that there are down the line. you know that there are down the line. you know that there are tram lines which you do go down but on tram lines which you do go down but on tram lines which you do go down but on route oh my goodness there's all kinds route oh my goodness there's all kinds route oh my goodness there's all kinds of stuff and um the how in in the book of stuff and um the how in in the book of stuff and um the how in in the book on Ephesians I talk about of course on Ephesians I talk about of course on Ephesians I talk about of course spiritual warfare appropo Ephesians spiritual warfare appropo Ephesians spiritual warfare appropo Ephesians chapter 6 and uh clergy are signing on chapter 6 and uh clergy are signing on chapter 6 and uh clergy are signing on for that and I've often said to people for that and I've often said to people for that and I've often said to people you must have a good team of people who you must have a good team of people who you must have a good team of people who covenant to pray for you because you're covenant to pray for you because you're covenant to pray for you because you're going to need that protection You need going to need that protection You need going to need that protection You need that sense of people who you may not see that sense of people who you may not see that sense of people who you may not see very often but who you know are praying

very often but who you know are praying very often but who you know are praying for you day by day because you you need for you day by day because you you need for you day by day because you you need that protection and and that's that's that protection and and that's that's that protection and and that's that's not that's not being melodramatic. not that's not being melodramatic. not that's not being melodramatic. That's simply the reality. That's simply the reality. That's simply the reality. >> I'd like to put a pin in that and come >> I'd like to put a pin in that and come >> I'd like to put a pin in that and come back to spiritual warfare. But I'd like back to spiritual warfare. But I'd like back to spiritual warfare. But I'd like to go back to Oxford. So what did you to go back to Oxford. So what did you to go back to Oxford. So what did you when you went to Oxford, where did you when you went to Oxford, where did you when you went to Oxford, where did you think that would lead and then where did think that would lead and then where did think that would lead and then where did it end up leading in the end? Okay. It it end up leading in the end? Okay. It it end up leading in the end? Okay. It was a curious thing because was a curious thing because was a curious thing because um at school I had specialized in um at school I had specialized in um at school I had specialized in classics in Latin and Greek and ancient classics in Latin and Greek and ancient classics in Latin and Greek and ancient history and I love the ancient history history and I love the ancient history history and I love the ancient history particularly. But um I I had spent far particularly. But um I I had spent far particularly. But um I I had spent far too much time playing cricket and rugby too much time playing cricket and rugby too much time playing cricket and rugby and goodness knows what and playing a and goodness knows what and playing a and goodness knows what and playing a lot of music, any instrument I could get lot of music, any instrument I could get lot of music, any instrument I could get hold of, any choir I could sing in. So I hold of, any choir I could sing in. So I hold of, any choir I could sing in. So I hadn't studied nearly as hard as as many hadn't studied nearly as hard as as many hadn't studied nearly as hard as as many teenagers. So I only scraped into Oxford teenagers. So I only scraped into Oxford teenagers. So I only scraped into Oxford by the skin of my teeth. And I actually by the skin of my teeth. And I actually by the skin of my teeth. And I actually scraped in to read theology because scraped in to read theology because scraped in to read theology because there was less demand for theology than there was less demand for theology than there was less demand for theology than for philosophy in ancient history. And I for philosophy in ancient history. And I for philosophy in ancient history. And I probably wouldn't have got in to read probably wouldn't have got in to read probably wouldn't have got in to read philosophy in ancient history. But philosophy in ancient history. But philosophy in ancient history. But during my first two terms, I got to know during my first two terms, I got to know during my first two terms, I got to know um a student at Wickliffe who became a um a student at Wickliffe who became a um a student at Wickliffe who became a close friend and still is a close friend close friend and still is a close friend close friend and still is a close friend by the name of Oliver O'Donovan who is by the name of Oliver O'Donovan who is by the name of Oliver O'Donovan who is now a very well-known um worldclass now a very well-known um worldclass now a very well-known um worldclass theologian um ethicist particularly. But theologian um ethicist particularly. But theologian um ethicist particularly. But he was just 3 years or so ahead of me.

he was just 3 years or so ahead of me. he was just 3 years or so ahead of me. We met in a Hebrew class actually. And We met in a Hebrew class actually. And We met in a Hebrew class actually. And uh he having seen who I was advised me uh he having seen who I was advised me uh he having seen who I was advised me um that I should ask my college if I um that I should ask my college if I um that I should ask my college if I could uh take the philosophy and ancient could uh take the philosophy and ancient could uh take the philosophy and ancient history course first and then come back history course first and then come back history course first and then come back and do theology as a second bachelor's and do theology as a second bachelor's and do theology as a second bachelor's degree. And to begin with that seemed degree. And to begin with that seemed degree. And to begin with that seemed like an extraordinary dream. But the like an extraordinary dream. But the like an extraordinary dream. But the more I thought and prayed about it, um more I thought and prayed about it, um more I thought and prayed about it, um the more it seemed to make sense and the more it seemed to make sense and the more it seemed to make sense and that my tutors in my college were quite that my tutors in my college were quite that my tutors in my college were quite happy about that. Um so so then I was happy about that. Um so so then I was happy about that. Um so so then I was really up against it because uh I had to really up against it because uh I had to really up against it because uh I had to plunge in to the philosophy and ancient plunge in to the philosophy and ancient plunge in to the philosophy and ancient history course without having done the history course without having done the history course without having done the normal prelim preliminary work for that. normal prelim preliminary work for that. normal prelim preliminary work for that. And so I I spent a lot of time actually And so I I spent a lot of time actually And so I I spent a lot of time actually in the books and in the Greek and the in the books and in the Greek and the in the books and in the Greek and the Latin etc. Latin etc. Latin etc. um which was just as well because I then um which was just as well because I then um which was just as well because I then did get a good degree in 1971 which is did get a good degree in 1971 which is did get a good degree in 1971 which is then the foundation of everything I've then the foundation of everything I've then the foundation of everything I've done ever since. So I then went to done ever since. So I then went to done ever since. So I then went to Wickliff Hall where curiously I'm now Wickliff Hall where curiously I'm now Wickliff Hall where curiously I'm now teaching part-time in in semi-retirement teaching part-time in in semi-retirement teaching part-time in in semi-retirement um but I went there as seminary um and um but I went there as seminary um and um but I went there as seminary um and did the theology degree from there. So did the theology degree from there. So did the theology degree from there. So that was a bit of a twist and turn that was a bit of a twist and turn that was a bit of a twist and turn already maybe setting the pattern for my already maybe setting the pattern for my already maybe setting the pattern for my for the rest of my life. you know, start for the rest of my life. you know, start for the rest of my life. you know, start off doing one thing, change and do the off doing one thing, change and do the off doing one thing, change and do the other, go back and do the first one, now other, go back and do the first one, now other, go back and do the first one, now changes this way and that. Um, but then, changes this way and that. Um, but then, changes this way and that. Um, but then, you know, life um throws odd things at you know, life um throws odd things at you know, life um throws odd things at you and I found myself then getting into you and I found myself then getting into you and I found myself then getting into the doctoral stream um which again was

the doctoral stream um which again was the doctoral stream um which again was was very hard work but enormously was very hard work but enormously was very hard work but enormously exciting just at a time when um new exciting just at a time when um new exciting just at a time when um new approaches to St. Paul particularly were approaches to St. Paul particularly were approaches to St. Paul particularly were coming up. So that right in the middle coming up. So that right in the middle coming up. So that right in the middle of my doctrinal work, Ed Sanders of my doctrinal work, Ed Sanders of my doctrinal work, Ed Sanders produced his book Paul and Palestinian produced his book Paul and Palestinian produced his book Paul and Palestinian Judaism. And lots of questions which I'd Judaism. And lots of questions which I'd Judaism. And lots of questions which I'd already had about Paul in his Jewish already had about Paul in his Jewish already had about Paul in his Jewish world, etc. sprang into new life. I world, etc. sprang into new life. I world, etc. sprang into new life. I didn't agree with more than maybe didn't agree with more than maybe didn't agree with more than maybe twothirds of what Sanders said, but it twothirds of what Sanders said, but it twothirds of what Sanders said, but it was, "Oh, wow. There's some exciting was, "Oh, wow. There's some exciting was, "Oh, wow. There's some exciting stuff going on here, and we're really stuff going on here, and we're really stuff going on here, and we're really rattling cages, and let's get in there rattling cages, and let's get in there rattling cages, and let's get in there and find out what's happening and mix it and find out what's happening and mix it and find out what's happening and mix it with them." So that that was that was with them." So that that was that was with them." So that that was that was how how that happened in the in that's how how that happened in the in that's how how that happened in the in that's all in the mid70s we're talking about all in the mid70s we're talking about all in the mid70s we're talking about now. now. now. >> So there are a lot of people Tom who >> So there are a lot of people Tom who >> So there are a lot of people Tom who have their doctorates whether it's their have their doctorates whether it's their have their doctorates whether it's their PhD or a DMEN or whatever that happens PhD or a DMEN or whatever that happens PhD or a DMEN or whatever that happens to be. A lot of people have gone on to to be. A lot of people have gone on to to be. A lot of people have gone on to levels of higher education but few have levels of higher education but few have levels of higher education but few have contributed the way you have contributed the way you have contributed the way you have contributed. I mean I I know that's contributed. I mean I I know that's contributed. I mean I I know that's probably embarrassing to hear but I probably embarrassing to hear but I probably embarrassing to hear but I think every listener would probably think every listener would probably think every listener would probably agree with that.

agree with that. agree with that. And you know as as I said to you when we And you know as as I said to you when we And you know as as I said to you when we were setting up this conversation one of were setting up this conversation one of were setting up this conversation one of my concerns because we have so many my concerns because we have so many my concerns because we have so many young leaders listening and that's why I young leaders listening and that's why I young leaders listening and that's why I don't want to talk about the making of don't want to talk about the making of don't want to talk about the making of NT right NT right NT right >> is you don't produce like even your >> is you don't produce like even your >> is you don't produce like even your latest book on the vision of Ephesians latest book on the vision of Ephesians latest book on the vision of Ephesians >> by doing a little bit of research for 6 >> by doing a little bit of research for 6 >> by doing a little bit of research for 6 months on Ephesians. This is the product months on Ephesians. This is the product months on Ephesians. This is the product of a lifetime of investment a lifetime of a lifetime of investment a lifetime of a lifetime of investment a lifetime of learning reading books you will never of learning reading books you will never of learning reading books you will never cite in any bibliography. Yeah, cite in any bibliography. Yeah, cite in any bibliography. Yeah, >> right. You you just you just can't >> right. You you just you just can't >> right. You you just you just can't because and so I want to go into some of because and so I want to go into some of because and so I want to go into some of those early habits, early disciplines those early habits, early disciplines those early habits, early disciplines back when you were at Oxford back in back when you were at Oxford back in back when you were at Oxford back in your 20s and 30s because right now your 20s and 30s because right now your 20s and 30s because right now you've got tens of thousands of leaders you've got tens of thousands of leaders you've got tens of thousands of leaders in their 20s and 30s listening who are in their 20s and 30s listening who are in their 20s and 30s listening who are saying, "Huh, if I want to become, you saying, "Huh, if I want to become, you saying, "Huh, if I want to become, you like NT right like for my age, what does like NT right like for my age, what does like NT right like for my age, what does that require?" And it's probably not that require?" And it's probably not that require?" And it's probably not watching more Tik Tok videos. I'm watching more Tik Tok videos. I'm watching more Tik Tok videos. I'm [laughter] guessing. [laughter] guessing. [laughter] guessing. >> No, I mean the the of course the the the >> No, I mean the the of course the the the >> No, I mean the the of course the the the the base is the Greek of the New the base is the Greek of the New the base is the Greek of the New Testament and the Hebrew if possible of Testament and the Hebrew if possible of Testament and the Hebrew if possible of the Old Testament. I know Hebrew is the Old Testament. I know Hebrew is the Old Testament. I know Hebrew is harder than Greek, but harder than Greek, but harder than Greek, but >> I only have my Greek. I don't have my >> I only have my Greek. I don't have my >> I only have my Greek. I don't have my Hebrew.

Hebrew. Hebrew. >> But um I mean I've often said reading >> But um I mean I've often said reading >> But um I mean I've often said reading the New Testament without knowing any the New Testament without knowing any the New Testament without knowing any Greek is like trying to play a Beethoven Greek is like trying to play a Beethoven Greek is like trying to play a Beethoven symphony on a mouth organ. You know, you symphony on a mouth organ. You know, you symphony on a mouth organ. You know, you you may be able just to get about the you may be able just to get about the you may be able just to get about the tune, but this is not going to end well. tune, but this is not going to end well. tune, but this is not going to end well. Um, and alas, alas, several of the Um, and alas, alas, several of the Um, and alas, alas, several of the modern translations, modern translations, modern translations, um, and I I don't use that many modern um, and I I don't use that many modern um, and I I don't use that many modern translations, there's four or five that translations, there's four or five that translations, there's four or five that I regularly consult because I'm working I regularly consult because I'm working I regularly consult because I'm working from the Greek all the time myself, but from the Greek all the time myself, but from the Greek all the time myself, but several of the modern translations are several of the modern translations are several of the modern translations are trying to project particular theological trying to project particular theological trying to project particular theological um, nuances onto the text. And I get so um, nuances onto the text. And I get so um, nuances onto the text. And I get so frustrated when I see that happening. frustrated when I see that happening. frustrated when I see that happening. And I continually say to the students, And I continually say to the students, And I continually say to the students, um, you've got to have at least two, um, you've got to have at least two, um, you've got to have at least two, preferably three or four English preferably three or four English preferably three or four English translations on the desk if you haven't translations on the desk if you haven't translations on the desk if you haven't got the Greek and the Hebrew. Um, to got the Greek and the Hebrew. Um, to got the Greek and the Hebrew. Um, to make sure you're getting different make sure you're getting different make sure you're getting different angles, um, otherwise, you may be fooled angles, um, otherwise, you may be fooled angles, um, otherwise, you may be fooled into thinking that the text actually into thinking that the text actually into thinking that the text actually means what this translation says it means what this translation says it means what this translation says it means. And this happens particularly means. And this happens particularly means. And this happens particularly with Paul and justification and the with Paul and justification and the with Paul and justification and the language of righteousness, law, and all language of righteousness, law, and all language of righteousness, law, and all that, Romans and Galatians. That's where that, Romans and Galatians. That's where that, Romans and Galatians. That's where I've seen it particularly. But um in I've seen it particularly. But um in I've seen it particularly. But um in order to get into that um then obviously order to get into that um then obviously order to get into that um then obviously the regular regular dayby-day reading of the regular regular dayby-day reading of the regular regular dayby-day reading of the text is absolutely vital. You know the text is absolutely vital. You know the text is absolutely vital. You know when I was at seminary knowing that I when I was at seminary knowing that I when I was at seminary knowing that I was doing the theology degree and I was doing the theology degree and I was doing the theology degree and I wanted to do it as well as I could I set wanted to do it as well as I could I set wanted to do it as well as I could I set myself quite a rigorous um program of of myself quite a rigorous um program of of myself quite a rigorous um program of of daybyday reading. Um I can't remember

daybyday reading. Um I can't remember daybyday reading. Um I can't remember how it worked but it was something like how it worked but it was something like how it worked but it was something like a chapter of the Gospels every day, a a chapter of the Gospels every day, a a chapter of the Gospels every day, a chapter of Paul every day. um two chapter of Paul every day. um two chapter of Paul every day. um two chapters of the Old Testament every day chapters of the Old Testament every day chapters of the Old Testament every day um on and on through and um on and on through and um on and on through and >> all in the original languages. >> all in the original languages. >> all in the original languages. >> Uh the the Greek the the the New >> Uh the the Greek the the the New >> Uh the the Greek the the the New Testament was in the original languages. Testament was in the original languages. Testament was in the original languages. My Hebrew was just just getting going. My Hebrew was just just getting going. My Hebrew was just just getting going. So I did do some Hebrew study um So I did do some Hebrew study um So I did do some Hebrew study um particularly Isaiah which I've always particularly Isaiah which I've always particularly Isaiah which I've always loved. But um I would be reading uh the loved. But um I would be reading uh the loved. But um I would be reading uh the English of the Old Testament and then English of the Old Testament and then English of the Old Testament and then when things got puzzling trying to check when things got puzzling trying to check when things got puzzling trying to check back with the Hebrew and see how I could back with the Hebrew and see how I could back with the Hebrew and see how I could do my Hebrew gradually caught up. um or do my Hebrew gradually caught up. um or do my Hebrew gradually caught up. um or when I mean not as well as the Greek but when I mean not as well as the Greek but when I mean not as well as the Greek but but um still a bit I by the way I was but um still a bit I by the way I was but um still a bit I by the way I was very fortunate I had Latin from the age very fortunate I had Latin from the age very fortunate I had Latin from the age of eight and Greek from the age of 13 um of eight and Greek from the age of 13 um of eight and Greek from the age of 13 um and my only reg regret there is I didn't and my only reg regret there is I didn't and my only reg regret there is I didn't start Greek earlier because I was in the start Greek earlier because I was in the start Greek earlier because I was in the class which had started at 11 and I had class which had started at 11 and I had class which had started at 11 and I had a big scramble to catch up with them um a big scramble to catch up with them um a big scramble to catch up with them um which I'd just about done by the time I which I'd just about done by the time I which I'd just about done by the time I was a student but but so the the the the was a student but but so the the the the was a student but but so the the the the the the the regular reading of scripture and the regular reading of scripture and the regular reading of scripture and the mapping of it out. The taking of a book mapping of it out. The taking of a book mapping of it out. The taking of a book and saying, "Now, what is Colossians all and saying, "Now, what is Colossians all and saying, "Now, what is Colossians all about? What's the main theme here? Um about? What's the main theme here? Um about? What's the main theme here? Um what's the the book of the prophet Micah what's the the book of the prophet Micah what's the the book of the prophet Micah all about?" Um how does it divide up?

all about?" Um how does it divide up? all about?" Um how does it divide up? Making my own plans and patterns of what Making my own plans and patterns of what Making my own plans and patterns of what was going on and then that that forces was going on and then that that forces was going on and then that that forces you to bump your nose up against the you to bump your nose up against the you to bump your nose up against the difficulties, the the the places where difficulties, the the the places where difficulties, the the the places where it don't seem to make sense. And then it don't seem to make sense. And then it don't seem to make sense. And then once you felt the difficulty for once you felt the difficulty for once you felt the difficulty for yourself, you want to scurry away to the yourself, you want to scurry away to the yourself, you want to scurry away to the commentaries, all these funny things on commentaries, all these funny things on commentaries, all these funny things on the walls behind me here, um to see what the walls behind me here, um to see what the walls behind me here, um to see what so and so makes of it and h how does the so and so makes of it and h how does the so and so makes of it and h how does the um new interpreters um dictionary of the um new interpreters um dictionary of the um new interpreters um dictionary of the Bible um um read that bit, etc., etc. Bible um um read that bit, etc., etc. Bible um um read that bit, etc., etc. And and so um for me, it's always been, And and so um for me, it's always been, And and so um for me, it's always been, you know, there've been times when you know, there've been times when you know, there've been times when there's a new book come out which I've there's a new book come out which I've there's a new book come out which I've thought, oh, I suppose I better read thought, oh, I suppose I better read thought, oh, I suppose I better read that. So I will sit down and and kind of that. So I will sit down and and kind of that. So I will sit down and and kind of pace myself through it and take some pace myself through it and take some pace myself through it and take some notes and move on. But often the books notes and move on. But often the books notes and move on. But often the books that I've read have been books that I've that I've read have been books that I've that I've read have been books that I've urgently wanted to read because I have urgently wanted to read because I have urgently wanted to read because I have been aware of that problem too and I'd been aware of that problem too and I'd been aware of that problem too and I'd love to know what this person says about love to know what this person says about love to know what this person says about it. So um in a sense once you dive in it. So um in a sense once you dive in it. So um in a sense once you dive in and get going um the the the the sense and get going um the the the the sense and get going um the the the the sense of the urgency of the questions and of the urgency of the questions and of the urgency of the questions and problems drives you into particular problems drives you into particular problems drives you into particular reading. um as well as you know if reading. um as well as you know if reading. um as well as you know if somebody um halfdeent has just produced somebody um halfdeent has just produced somebody um halfdeent has just produced a new commentary on a book that you a new commentary on a book that you a new commentary on a book that you hadn't thought of studying you may want hadn't thought of studying you may want hadn't thought of studying you may want to say okay I'm going to take two or to say okay I'm going to take two or to say okay I'm going to take two or three days and and and study that three days and and and study that three days and and and study that because that may well be something I because that may well be something I because that may well be something I should get to know but but for me often should get to know but but for me often should get to know but but for me often it's been driven by um I wouldn't say it's been driven by um I wouldn't say it's been driven by um I wouldn't say the needs of the moment but the

the needs of the moment but the the needs of the moment but the excitement of a particular topic ah excitement of a particular topic ah excitement of a particular topic ah here's a couple of books on that right here's a couple of books on that right here's a couple of books on that right um let's I mean I had a sbatical in um let's I mean I had a sbatical in um let's I mean I had a sbatical in Princeton um 2009 when I was trying to Princeton um 2009 when I was trying to Princeton um 2009 when I was trying to finish my big book on Paul and I during finish my big book on Paul and I during finish my big book on Paul and I during the day I'd be reading and writing and the day I'd be reading and writing and the day I'd be reading and writing and writing and reading and then in the writing and reading and then in the writing and reading and then in the evenings I would go back to the little evenings I would go back to the little evenings I would go back to the little apartment that my wife and I were in. apartment that my wife and I were in. apartment that my wife and I were in. And I couldn't help myself. I would take And I couldn't help myself. I would take And I couldn't help myself. I would take three or four books back with me in case three or four books back with me in case three or four books back with me in case I could read a bit after supper. And I I could read a bit after supper. And I I could read a bit after supper. And I realized actually once you've had supper realized actually once you've had supper realized actually once you've had supper after a long day at the desk, you after a long day at the desk, you after a long day at the desk, you probably aren't in a fit state to read probably aren't in a fit state to read probably aren't in a fit state to read these books that anyway you can't these books that anyway you can't these books that anyway you can't actually read one with your left eye and actually read one with your left eye and actually read one with your left eye and one with your right eye. The brain just one with your right eye. The brain just one with your right eye. The brain just doesn't work like that. Um but but that doesn't work like that. Um but but that doesn't work like that. Um but but that was the that was the desire. You know, I was the that was the desire. You know, I was the that was the desire. You know, I want to get on top of this stuff. I want want to get on top of this stuff. I want want to get on top of this stuff. I want to to to be to master it. Um and then to to to to be to master it. Um and then to to to to be to master it. Um and then to be filled with it. So so that's that's be filled with it. So so that's that's be filled with it. So so that's that's how it's gone for me. And uh how it's gone for me. And uh how it's gone for me. And uh >> so you've had a natural curiosity. >> so you've had a natural curiosity. >> so you've had a natural curiosity. You've got a passion for it, which is You've got a passion for it, which is You've got a passion for it, which is great. This isn't work for you. This is great. This isn't work for you. This is great. This isn't work for you. This is >> this is a joy. I mean, it is it has >> this is a joy. I mean, it is it has >> this is a joy. I mean, it is it has work-like elements.

work-like elements. work-like elements. >> It has some serious work-like elements. >> It has some serious work-like elements. >> It has some serious work-like elements. I mean, there are times when um I mean, there are times when um I mean, there are times when um particularly if somebody writes an particularly if somebody writes an particularly if somebody writes an article controversing something that article controversing something that article controversing something that I've said, um then I try thoughtfully, I've said, um then I try thoughtfully, I've said, um then I try thoughtfully, prayerfully, humbly to say, "Gee, maybe prayerfully, humbly to say, "Gee, maybe prayerfully, humbly to say, "Gee, maybe they're right and maybe I'm wrong, but they're right and maybe I'm wrong, but they're right and maybe I'm wrong, but we're going to have to do a lot more we're going to have to do a lot more we're going to have to do a lot more digging to get underneath this one and digging to get underneath this one and digging to get underneath this one and see where it is." Um and sometimes that see where it is." Um and sometimes that see where it is." Um and sometimes that really does feel like hard work. Um, and really does feel like hard work. Um, and really does feel like hard work. Um, and when you're scribbling in the margins of when you're scribbling in the margins of when you're scribbling in the margins of books, how can you possibly say that? books, how can you possibly say that? books, how can you possibly say that? Um, but uh uh so so there are times when Um, but uh uh so so there are times when Um, but uh uh so so there are times when it's when it's been when it's been hard it's when it's been when it's been hard it's when it's been when it's been hard work. Um but but mostly mostly yes, it's work. Um but but mostly mostly yes, it's work. Um but but mostly mostly yes, it's been been driven by by delight. And once been been driven by by delight. And once been been driven by by delight. And once I started writing, I mean that's that's I started writing, I mean that's that's I started writing, I mean that's that's the other thing of course that um for the other thing of course that um for the other thing of course that um for whatever reason um from quite an early whatever reason um from quite an early whatever reason um from quite an early age um I have been able to write uh and age um I have been able to write uh and age um I have been able to write uh and uh I didn't realize that until I think uh I didn't realize that until I think uh I didn't realize that until I think um till I was already doing graduate um till I was already doing graduate um till I was already doing graduate work when I realized that other people work when I realized that other people work when I realized that other people were struggling to put sentences on the were struggling to put sentences on the were struggling to put sentences on the page and I seem to be able to do it much page and I seem to be able to do it much page and I seem to be able to do it much more easily. And it's funny quite a bit more easily. And it's funny quite a bit more easily. And it's funny quite a bit later when one of my children was having later when one of my children was having later when one of my children was having a hard time at school um in her early a hard time at school um in her early a hard time at school um in her early teens I think and she came to me in teens I think and she came to me in teens I think and she came to me in tears with the school report that said tears with the school report that said tears with the school report that said this and that and the other and it was this and that and the other and it was this and that and the other and it was all seemed negative and I said okay all seemed negative and I said okay all seemed negative and I said okay listen and I got out of a drawer my old listen and I got out of a drawer my old listen and I got out of a drawer my old school reports and I made her read some school reports and I made her read some school reports and I made her read some of them which and one of them

of them which and one of them of them which and one of them >> and what did they say? Well, one of them >> and what did they say? Well, one of them >> and what did they say? Well, one of them jumped out at me because it was on on my jumped out at me because it was on on my jumped out at me because it was on on my my English work when I was maybe 14 or my English work when I was maybe 14 or my English work when I was maybe 14 or something like that, and it said, "This something like that, and it said, "This something like that, and it said, "This boy's English is undoubtedly the best in boy's English is undoubtedly the best in boy's English is undoubtedly the best in the class. However, he continually the class. However, he continually the class. However, he continually spoils that by bringing the wrong books spoils that by bringing the wrong books spoils that by bringing the wrong books to school, by um failing to turn in work to school, by um failing to turn in work to school, by um failing to turn in work on time, by um failing to read the on time, by um failing to read the on time, by um failing to read the question before he starts to write." question before he starts to write." question before he starts to write." But, you know, the the the teacher was But, you know, the the the teacher was But, you know, the the the teacher was saying, "Actually, you can write. Will saying, "Actually, you can write. Will saying, "Actually, you can write. Will you please get the rest of your act you please get the rest of your act you please get the rest of your act together?" because this might be quite together?" because this might be quite together?" because this might be quite fun fun fun and and uh but I took no notice I wasn't and and uh but I took no notice I wasn't and and uh but I took no notice I wasn't interested in being a writer of per se. interested in being a writer of per se. interested in being a writer of per se. It's only when I had something to say It's only when I had something to say It's only when I had something to say that then I mean comparing notes with that then I mean comparing notes with that then I mean comparing notes with colleagues now. Um I remember once we colleagues now. Um I remember once we colleagues now. Um I remember once we got into this discussion when I was got into this discussion when I was got into this discussion when I was chaplain of Worcester College and you chaplain of Worcester College and you chaplain of Worcester College and you meet with my um my colleagues in other meet with my um my colleagues in other meet with my um my colleagues in other disciplines and somebody said oh Tom disciplines and somebody said oh Tom disciplines and somebody said oh Tom you've written a couple of books and how you've written a couple of books and how you've written a couple of books and how how many words do you write a day? And I how many words do you write a day? And I how many words do you write a day? And I said well when I'm going well I write said well when I'm going well I write said well when I'm going well I write about a thousand words an hour. So I about a thousand words an hour. So I about a thousand words an hour. So I said if I have a good day I might manage said if I have a good day I might manage said if I have a good day I might manage six or 7 thousand words and sometimes six or 7 thousand words and sometimes six or 7 thousand words and sometimes even more. And and one colleague with a even more. And and one colleague with a even more. And and one colleague with a completely straight face said Tom I completely straight face said Tom I completely straight face said Tom I don't believe you. And I didn't I didn't don't believe you. And I didn't I didn't don't believe you. And I didn't I didn't know what to say because I wasn't making know what to say because I wasn't making know what to say because I wasn't making it up and I knew I wasn't making it up.

it up and I knew I wasn't making it up. it up and I knew I wasn't making it up. And with the advent of the computers you And with the advent of the computers you And with the advent of the computers you can check exactly where you are. And of can check exactly where you are. And of can check exactly where you are. And of course if you write 10,000 words in a course if you write 10,000 words in a course if you write 10,000 words in a day you're going to want to sit down in day you're going to want to sit down in day you're going to want to sit down in a week or so and read them through and a week or so and read them through and a week or so and read them through and adjust them. But at least you can get adjust them. But at least you can get adjust them. But at least you can get the basic stuff down. And so I've been the basic stuff down. And so I've been the basic stuff down. And so I've been very for and I but but comparing notes very for and I but but comparing notes very for and I but but comparing notes with um other colleagues and friends with um other colleagues and friends with um other colleagues and friends including some very good writers among including some very good writers among including some very good writers among them um they will tell me um that them um they will tell me um that them um they will tell me um that they're jealous of the the fact that they're jealous of the the fact that they're jealous of the the fact that words seem to come easily to me. But words seem to come easily to me. But words seem to come easily to me. But then I think they always did. Um when then I think they always did. Um when then I think they always did. Um when when my mother was in her mid 90s and in when my mother was in her mid 90s and in when my mother was in her mid 90s and in a nursing home and I gave her a copy of a nursing home and I gave her a copy of a nursing home and I gave her a copy of yet another new little book which I'd yet another new little book which I'd yet another new little book which I'd published, she shook her head and said, published, she shook her head and said, published, she shook her head and said, "I always did say you'd had too much to "I always did say you'd had too much to "I always did say you'd had too much to say for yourself. Maybe there was some say for yourself. Maybe there was some say for yourself. Maybe there was some point to it." [laughter] point to it." [laughter] point to it." [laughter] Gee, thanks, Mom. Gee, thanks, Mom. Gee, thanks, Mom. So, you know, downsides and upsides. So, you know, downsides and upsides. So, you know, downsides and upsides. >> Exactly. But six or 7,000 words is >> Exactly. But six or 7,000 words is >> Exactly. But six or 7,000 words is extraordinary. And I mean if you look at extraordinary. And I mean if you look at extraordinary. And I mean if you look at your writing, but there's something your writing, but there's something your writing, but there's something about that that compounding of all the about that that compounding of all the about that that compounding of all the reading of Greek at 13 of Hebrew along reading of Greek at 13 of Hebrew along reading of Greek at 13 of Hebrew along the way of the daily disciplines of the way of the daily disciplines of the way of the daily disciplines of reading the different scholarly reading the different scholarly reading the different scholarly literature like it's most people would literature like it's most people would literature like it's most people would say 500 to a,000 words a day if you're say 500 to a,000 words a day if you're say 500 to a,000 words a day if you're writing a book is like good good days writing a book is like good good days writing a book is like good good days work.

work. work. >> I'd be very depressed. I'd be very >> I'd be very depressed. I'd be very >> I'd be very depressed. I'd be very depressed if I depressed if I depressed if I >> you would be very depressed. But I mean, >> you would be very depressed. But I mean, >> you would be very depressed. But I mean, your work is dense and I I'm I'm your work is dense and I I'm I'm your work is dense and I I'm I'm thinking like when you you know, you thinking like when you you know, you thinking like when you you know, you describe being on your Princeton describe being on your Princeton describe being on your Princeton sbatical and being with your wife in sbatical and being with your wife in sbatical and being with your wife in that tiny apartment and reading and that tiny apartment and reading and that tiny apartment and reading and writing all day and then coming home writing all day and then coming home writing all day and then coming home hoping that you could do a little more hoping that you could do a little more hoping that you could do a little more reading along. Yeah. reading along. Yeah. reading along. Yeah. >> Yeah. But that is that is what I think a >> Yeah. But that is that is what I think a >> Yeah. But that is that is what I think a lot of young leaders don't understand is lot of young leaders don't understand is lot of young leaders don't understand is that, you know, you're not maybe you you that, you know, you're not maybe you you that, you know, you're not maybe you you know, you love sports. One of the things know, you love sports. One of the things know, you love sports. One of the things I've given up so that I can do, I mean, I've given up so that I can do, I mean, I've given up so that I can do, I mean, I'm tracking with the Blue Jays right I'm tracking with the Blue Jays right I'm tracking with the Blue Jays right now who are doing abysmally, but anyway, now who are doing abysmally, but anyway, now who are doing abysmally, but anyway, you know, once in a while, jump on a you know, once in a while, jump on a you know, once in a while, jump on a bandwagon for a couple of weeks if bandwagon for a couple of weeks if bandwagon for a couple of weeks if there's a team that I care about that there's a team that I care about that there's a team that I care about that seems to be making a run at it. But as a seems to be making a run at it. But as a seems to be making a run at it. But as a general rule, I gave up golf years ago general rule, I gave up golf years ago general rule, I gave up golf years ago because I really want to do this work. I because I really want to do this work. I because I really want to do this work. I I don't watch sports because I'm only I don't watch sports because I'm only I don't watch sports because I'm only moderately interested unless there's a moderately interested unless there's a moderately interested unless there's a playoff, but like there've got to be playoff, but like there've got to be playoff, but like there've got to be trade-offs and sacrifices trade-offs and sacrifices trade-offs and sacrifices along the way. What what have those look along the way. What what have those look along the way. What what have those look like in your life so that you can quote like in your life so that you can quote like in your life so that you can quote get the reps in?

get the reps in? get the reps in? >> Yeah, I mean there are things I mean now >> Yeah, I mean there are things I mean now >> Yeah, I mean there are things I mean now that we live half the year back in that we live half the year back in that we live half the year back in Oxford, it is very frustrating because Oxford, it is very frustrating because Oxford, it is very frustrating because Oxford is full of music. I walk down the Oxford is full of music. I walk down the Oxford is full of music. I walk down the street from where we live and I pass the street from where we live and I pass the street from where we live and I pass the Hollywood music room where people like Hollywood music room where people like Hollywood music room where people like Handel and Heiden came and played um 300 Handel and Heiden came and played um 300 Handel and Heiden came and played um 300 years ago and there are posters outside years ago and there are posters outside years ago and there are posters outside for a string quartet concert or a song for a string quartet concert or a song for a string quartet concert or a song recital or this or that. almost every recital or this or that. almost every recital or this or that. almost every day and I think, "Oh, I'd love to hear day and I think, "Oh, I'd love to hear day and I think, "Oh, I'd love to hear that." And then I think, "Uh, no, that." And then I think, "Uh, no, that." And then I think, "Uh, no, haven't got time to do that this haven't got time to do that this haven't got time to do that this [laughter] week." [laughter] week." [laughter] week." >> Yes, that is the tradeoff, right? 24 >> Yes, that is the tradeoff, right? 24 >> Yes, that is the tradeoff, right? 24 hours in a day. hours in a day. hours in a day. >> And from time to time, Maggie and I will >> And from time to time, Maggie and I will >> And from time to time, Maggie and I will go to a symphony concert. I mean, we we go to a symphony concert. I mean, we we go to a symphony concert. I mean, we we are within a 5minute walk of the are within a 5minute walk of the are within a 5minute walk of the Sheldonian Theater, which which uh they Sheldonian Theater, which which uh they Sheldonian Theater, which which uh they have wonderful um symphony concerts and have wonderful um symphony concerts and have wonderful um symphony concerts and similar um and the great coral works and similar um and the great coral works and similar um and the great coral works and so on. And so so we do go to some things so on. And so so we do go to some things so on. And so so we do go to some things but uh there's much more we could do and but uh there's much more we could do and but uh there's much more we could do and and actually my my physical disabilities and actually my my physical disabilities and actually my my physical disabilities now mean that some other things which now mean that some other things which now mean that some other things which used to occupy me uh sadly can't used to occupy me uh sadly can't used to occupy me uh sadly can't anymore. I mean I did used to play as anymore. I mean I did used to play as anymore. I mean I did used to play as much golf as I could which was maybe on much golf as I could which was maybe on much golf as I could which was maybe on average once every two weeks. I mean, average once every two weeks. I mean, average once every two weeks. I mean, that's not a good rate of impressive, that's not a good rate of impressive, that's not a good rate of impressive, but but I used to play quite a bit in but but I used to play quite a bit in but but I used to play quite a bit in Scotland when we were um Andrews, Scotland when we were um Andrews, Scotland when we were um Andrews, >> but my I I had a knee operation a couple >> but my I I had a knee operation a couple >> but my I I had a knee operation a couple of years ago, and in fact, both knees of years ago, and in fact, both knees of years ago, and in fact, both knees are still quite painful, and so I can are still quite painful, and so I can are still quite painful, and so I can play maybe six holes. Um, playing nine play maybe six holes. Um, playing nine play maybe six holes. Um, playing nine is hard work. I I don't think I'd be up is hard work. I I don't think I'd be up is hard work. I I don't think I'd be up for 18 at the moment. The other thing is

for 18 at the moment. The other thing is for 18 at the moment. The other thing is I used to love climbing mountains in I used to love climbing mountains in I used to love climbing mountains in Scotland or the Lake District, Scotland or the Lake District, Scotland or the Lake District, especially Scotland. And we can see especially Scotland. And we can see especially Scotland. And we can see um a range of mountains in in Harris um a range of mountains in in Harris um a range of mountains in in Harris where where we have our our uh other where where we have our our uh other where where we have our our uh other house um and I can't get up them or if I house um and I can't get up them or if I house um and I can't get up them or if I did struggle up them I certainly did struggle up them I certainly did struggle up them I certainly wouldn't be able to come down because wouldn't be able to come down because wouldn't be able to come down because walking downhill is harder on my knees walking downhill is harder on my knees walking downhill is harder on my knees walk harder isn't it? walk harder isn't it? walk harder isn't it? >> So so I just say well there it is I'm >> So so I just say well there it is I'm >> So so I just say well there it is I'm not doing that anymore. I'll walk down not doing that anymore. I'll walk down not doing that anymore. I'll walk down on the beach with the grandchildren and on the beach with the grandchildren and on the beach with the grandchildren and um paddle in the shallows while they're um paddle in the shallows while they're um paddle in the shallows while they're having a surfing lesson or whatever and having a surfing lesson or whatever and having a surfing lesson or whatever and that's that's that's fine. That's fine. that's that's that's fine. That's fine. that's that's that's fine. That's fine. But so there have been there have been But so there have been there have been But so there have been there have been trade-offs like that. Um and uh yeah uh trade-offs like that. Um and uh yeah uh trade-offs like that. Um and uh yeah uh there's but I mean at my age mid70s there's but I mean at my age mid70s there's but I mean at my age mid70s there is a diminishment of of what one there is a diminishment of of what one there is a diminishment of of what one can do anyway. Um I think the other can do anyway. Um I think the other can do anyway. Um I think the other thing is I love reading poetry and I thing is I love reading poetry and I thing is I love reading poetry and I don't read as much poetry as I'd like to don't read as much poetry as I'd like to don't read as much poetry as I'd like to and I'd like to go back and reread some and I'd like to go back and reread some and I'd like to go back and reread some favorites and I don't make enough time favorites and I don't make enough time favorites and I don't make enough time for that. And I have read some of the for that. And I have read some of the for that. And I have read some of the great novels, but there's there are lots great novels, but there's there are lots great novels, but there's there are lots more which I hear about and know about, more which I hear about and know about, more which I hear about and know about, but um I I've never read right through but um I I've never read right through but um I I've never read right through Dossi. I mean I' and I've never read Dossi. I mean I' and I've never read Dossi. I mean I' and I've never read Toltoy at all. To my shame, you know. Um Toltoy at all. To my shame, you know. Um Toltoy at all. To my shame, you know. Um I would say that to Rowan Williams and a I would say that to Rowan Williams and a I would say that to Rowan Williams and a shadow would cross his face as though shadow would cross his face as though shadow would cross his face as though how can you be a human being if you how can you be a human being if you how can you be a human being if you haven't read these these great things.

haven't read these these great things. haven't read these these great things. Um and we don't go to nearly enough Um and we don't go to nearly enough Um and we don't go to nearly enough Shakespeare. Whenever we do go to live Shakespeare. Whenever we do go to live Shakespeare. Whenever we do go to live theater, we absolutely love it and we theater, we absolutely love it and we theater, we absolutely love it and we talk about it for a week or so talk about it for a week or so talk about it for a week or so afterwards. You what was going on in afterwards. You what was going on in afterwards. You what was going on in this scene and that um but we we don't this scene and that um but we we don't this scene and that um but we we don't do that enough. Um so there there are do that enough. Um so there there are do that enough. Um so there there are things which I'd like to do more of but things which I'd like to do more of but things which I'd like to do more of but you know life life is a bit of a you know life life is a bit of a you know life life is a bit of a trade-off and that's fair enough. trade-off and that's fair enough. trade-off and that's fair enough. >> No, I appreciate that and I think every >> No, I appreciate that and I think every >> No, I appreciate that and I think every leader is struggling with that in a in a leader is struggling with that in a in a leader is struggling with that in a in a significant way. So CS Lewis was an significant way. So CS Lewis was an significant way. So CS Lewis was an early influence and that's you know I early influence and that's you know I early influence and that's you know I hadn't connected the timelines until you hadn't connected the timelines until you hadn't connected the timelines until you said that um CS Lewis that was an early said that um CS Lewis that was an early said that um CS Lewis that was an early influence for you and you know that the influence for you and you know that the influence for you and you know that the Chronicles of Narnia came out you got Chronicles of Narnia came out you got Chronicles of Narnia came out you got first edition first edition first edition >> right Narnia was important and then >> right Narnia was important and then >> right Narnia was important and then having I mean I' I've often found with having I mean I' I've often found with having I mean I' I've often found with writers once you trust a writer you can writers once you trust a writer you can writers once you trust a writer you can move on to other things that they've move on to other things that they've move on to other things that they've done and so I I remember particularly done and so I I remember particularly done and so I I remember particularly Screw Tape Letters when I was at school Screw Tape Letters when I was at school Screw Tape Letters when I was at school reading that and then reading miracles reading that and then reading miracles reading that and then reading miracles and reading being um surprised by joy and reading being um surprised by joy and reading being um surprised by joy and and so on. And of course being in and and so on. And of course being in and and so on. And of course being in Oxford as an undergraduate. You're very Oxford as an undergraduate. You're very Oxford as an undergraduate. You're very much aware this is where he was for most much aware this is where he was for most much aware this is where he was for most of his life and where Maggie and I now of his life and where Maggie and I now of his life and where Maggie and I now live in Hollywood Street. Um we are live in Hollywood Street. Um we are live in Hollywood Street. Um we are about a five iron shot from the wall of about a five iron shot from the wall of about a five iron shot from the wall of Morton College where he spent um his his Morton College where he spent um his his Morton College where he spent um his his young adult life. And when he went to young adult life. And when he went to young adult life. And when he went to meet his friends in in the pub on meet his friends in in the pub on meet his friends in in the pub on Tuesday lunchtime or whatever it was, Tuesday lunchtime or whatever it was, Tuesday lunchtime or whatever it was, the natural way he would have come would the natural way he would have come would the natural way he would have come would be to walk right past what is what is be to walk right past what is what is be to walk right past what is what is the half front door.

the half front door. the half front door. >> Did you ever cross paths with him? He >> Did you ever cross paths with him? He >> Did you ever cross paths with him? He died in 196. died in 196. died in 196. >> Lewis Lewis died the same day that Jack >> Lewis Lewis died the same day that Jack >> Lewis Lewis died the same day that Jack Kennedy died. Um, November 1963 when I Kennedy died. Um, November 1963 when I Kennedy died. Um, November 1963 when I was only 15, I suppose, 14. was only 15, I suppose, 14. was only 15, I suppose, 14. I I nearly I nearly met Tolken because I I nearly I nearly met Tolken because I I nearly I nearly met Tolken because Tolken was a fellow of Mertton College Tolken was a fellow of Mertton College Tolken was a fellow of Mertton College here in Oxford and in retirement would here in Oxford and in retirement would here in Oxford and in retirement would be having lunch in Merton most days of be having lunch in Merton most days of be having lunch in Merton most days of the week and he died just before I the week and he died just before I the week and he died just before I became a fellow of Mertton in 1975. So became a fellow of Mertton in 1975. So became a fellow of Mertton in 1975. So if he hadn't gone and done that I would if he hadn't gone and done that I would if he hadn't gone and done that I would have been sitting next to him at lunch have been sitting next to him at lunch have been sitting next to him at lunch but uh didn't happen. [laughter] but uh didn't happen. [laughter] but uh didn't happen. [laughter] Who are some other you know as you say Who are some other you know as you say Who are some other you know as you say right there are certain authors that right there are certain authors that right there are certain authors that just become I'm going to read everything just become I'm going to read everything just become I'm going to read everything they've ever written. Have you got a they've ever written. Have you got a they've ever written. Have you got a handful of scholarly or otherwise handful of scholarly or otherwise handful of scholarly or otherwise authors that you're like these are authors that you're like these are authors that you're like these are people that you can go deep with you people that you can go deep with you people that you can go deep with you would recommend? I I mean it's it's would recommend? I I mean it's it's would recommend? I I mean it's it's curious because some of them uh that I curious because some of them uh that I curious because some of them uh that I will name are people with whom I will name are people with whom I will name are people with whom I profoundly disagree but who are really profoundly disagree but who are really profoundly disagree but who are really worthwhile reading because even when worthwhile reading because even when worthwhile reading because even when when I think they're wrong and and the when I think they're wrong and and the when I think they're wrong and and the obvious one is Albert Scheitzer whose obvious one is Albert Scheitzer whose obvious one is Albert Scheitzer whose quest for the historical Jesus and then quest for the historical Jesus and then quest for the historical Jesus and then his book on Paul absolute eyeopeners his book on Paul absolute eyeopeners his book on Paul absolute eyeopeners even though I would now be severely even though I would now be severely even though I would now be severely critical of them partly just because he critical of them partly just because he critical of them partly just because he writes so well and it's so vivid and writes so well and it's so vivid and writes so well and it's so vivid and exciting and he understood the exciting and he understood the exciting and he understood the scholarship and you can see the issues scholarship and you can see the issues scholarship and you can see the issues ranging themselves ranging themselves ranging themselves this way and that by contrast with this way and that by contrast with this way and that by contrast with somebody like Rudolph Bulman, the great somebody like Rudolph Bulman, the great somebody like Rudolph Bulman, the great German um whose writing style was turgid

German um whose writing style was turgid German um whose writing style was turgid in the extreme um and you know you could in the extreme um and you know you could in the extreme um and you know you could chew your way through it but it wouldn't chew your way through it but it wouldn't chew your way through it but it wouldn't be much fun among my own contemporaries be much fun among my own contemporaries be much fun among my own contemporaries um my beloved late lamented late um my beloved late lamented late um my beloved late lamented late lamented friend Richard Hayes um who lamented friend Richard Hayes um who lamented friend Richard Hayes um who just died last year um was it last year just died last year um was it last year just died last year um was it last year or was it early this year? Not that long or was it early this year? Not that long or was it early this year? Not that long ago. ago. ago. >> Was a great writer. Oh my goodness. >> Was a great writer. Oh my goodness. >> Was a great writer. Oh my goodness. very very fine writer and Richard was a very very fine writer and Richard was a very very fine writer and Richard was a dear friend and I I've been back and dear friend and I I've been back and dear friend and I I've been back and reread his books and he wrote some reread his books and he wrote some reread his books and he wrote some stunning things and uh uh very very stunning things and uh uh very very stunning things and uh uh very very grateful for that. Um grateful for that. Um grateful for that. Um I I I mean I've I've followed my nose I I I mean I've I've followed my nose I I I mean I've I've followed my nose through various other um by paths and um through various other um by paths and um through various other um by paths and um one of the people one of the one of the one of the people one of the one of the one of the people one of the one of the Germans who I really respect of course Germans who I really respect of course Germans who I really respect of course is Martin Hangle. I've read most of what is Martin Hangle. I've read most of what is Martin Hangle. I've read most of what Martin Hegel wrote. Um even and again Martin Hegel wrote. Um even and again Martin Hegel wrote. Um even and again even when I disagree um Hegel was so even when I disagree um Hegel was so even when I disagree um Hegel was so learned and managed to put it together learned and managed to put it together learned and managed to put it together that that you always learn from him. But that that you always learn from him. But that that you always learn from him. But in in terms of poetry and I suspect not in in terms of poetry and I suspect not in in terms of poetry and I suspect not a lot of your viewers or listeners will a lot of your viewers or listeners will a lot of your viewers or listeners will know this. There's a celebrated Irish know this. There's a celebrated Irish know this. There's a celebrated Irish poet at the moment called Mikall Oil. O poet at the moment called Mikall Oil. O poet at the moment called Mikall Oil. O apostrophe s i a d h a i l pronounced apostrophe s i a d h a i l pronounced apostrophe s i a d h a i l pronounced >> him or her. and Mikuel he it's Michael >> him or her. and Mikuel he it's Michael >> him or her. and Mikuel he it's Michael basically though he pronounces it I basically though he pronounces it I basically though he pronounces it I think Mih Hall um is the GA Gaelic think Mih Hall um is the GA Gaelic think Mih Hall um is the GA Gaelic pronunciation um he's he's just an pronunciation um he's he's just an pronunciation um he's he's just an extraordinary poet and he published five

extraordinary poet and he published five extraordinary poet and he published five or six years ago an amazing long poem or six years ago an amazing long poem or six years ago an amazing long poem quite a fat little book called the five quite a fat little book called the five quite a fat little book called the five quintets which is like TS Elliott's four quintets which is like TS Elliott's four quintets which is like TS Elliott's four quartets except it's um five um sets of quartets except it's um five um sets of quartets except it's um five um sets of um poems in a in a um genre which he's um poems in a in a um genre which he's um poems in a in a um genre which he's really invented himself telling the really invented himself telling the really invented himself telling the whole story of modern western culture whole story of modern western culture whole story of modern western culture whether it's um aesthetic or theological whether it's um aesthetic or theological whether it's um aesthetic or theological or philosophical or economic or or philosophical or economic or or philosophical or economic or political and going through the key political and going through the key political and going through the key players whether it's John Dunn or players whether it's John Dunn or players whether it's John Dunn or whether it's um I don't know whether it's um I don't know whether it's um I don't know [clears throat] Albert Fitzer again or [clears throat] Albert Fitzer again or [clears throat] Albert Fitzer again or whoever and and some of the contemporary whoever and and some of the contemporary whoever and and some of the contemporary political leaders and doing little pen political leaders and doing little pen political leaders and doing little pen portraits of them all in this portraits of them all in this portraits of them all in this extraordinary quizzical poetical style. extraordinary quizzical poetical style. extraordinary quizzical poetical style. And the whole thing is like going And the whole thing is like going And the whole thing is like going through a picture gallery of of how through a picture gallery of of how through a picture gallery of of how modern western culture works except that modern western culture works except that modern western culture works except that it's so beautifully laid out. Um, Mikall it's so beautifully laid out. Um, Mikall it's so beautifully laid out. Um, Mikall um his first wife died a few years ago um his first wife died a few years ago um his first wife died a few years ago and he's married again and actually and he's married again and actually and he's married again and actually lives in New York um because his second lives in New York um because his second lives in New York um because his second wife is a surgeon at one of the wife is a surgeon at one of the wife is a surgeon at one of the hospitals in New York and last time I hospitals in New York and last time I hospitals in New York and last time I saw him I think Maggie and I had dinner saw him I think Maggie and I had dinner saw him I think Maggie and I had dinner with them in New York. He but he's a with them in New York. He but he's a with them in New York. He but he's a wonderful human being. He's a kind of a wonderful human being. He's a kind of a wonderful human being. He's a kind of a rich intelligence to him which rich intelligence to him which rich intelligence to him which >> we'll link to all of this in the show >> we'll link to all of this in the show >> we'll link to all of this in the show notes. So if people are trying to take notes. So if people are trying to take notes. So if people are trying to take notes or figure out spelling we'll we'll notes or figure out spelling we'll we'll notes or figure out spelling we'll we'll we'll link to that in the show notes.

we'll link to that in the show notes. we'll link to that in the show notes. >> Yeah. Good. Good. No, those are those >> Yeah. Good. Good. No, those are those >> Yeah. Good. Good. No, those are those are interesting because I wouldn't have are interesting because I wouldn't have are interesting because I wouldn't have necessarily predicted those. So, uh, necessarily predicted those. So, uh, necessarily predicted those. So, uh, great great influences. Anything else great great influences. Anything else great great influences. Anything else about, you know, I really believe as we about, you know, I really believe as we about, you know, I really believe as we get older and having just had a get older and having just had a get older and having just had a milestone birthday earlier this year milestone birthday earlier this year milestone birthday earlier this year myself, you think you really myself, you think you really myself, you think you really >> uh the the the sum of your habits, >> uh the the the sum of your habits, >> uh the the the sum of your habits, right? Either you read or you didn't right? Either you read or you didn't right? Either you read or you didn't read. Either you wrote or you didn't read. Either you wrote or you didn't read. Either you wrote or you didn't write. So when you're thinking about the write. So when you're thinking about the write. So when you're thinking about the compound habits that you have practiced compound habits that you have practiced compound habits that you have practiced over a lifetime that have produced who over a lifetime that have produced who over a lifetime that have produced who you are today uh and so many you know you are today uh and so many you know you are today uh and so many you know a legacy that so many of us value and a legacy that so many of us value and a legacy that so many of us value and appreciate and are grateful for. What appreciate and are grateful for. What appreciate and are grateful for. What are some of those other compound habits are some of those other compound habits are some of those other compound habits that you have practiced over the that you have practiced over the that you have practiced over the decades? Uh I mean decades? Uh I mean decades? Uh I mean perforce because we have four children perforce because we have four children perforce because we have four children and now six grandchildren. Quite a bit and now six grandchildren. Quite a bit and now six grandchildren. Quite a bit of my life over the last several years of my life over the last several years of my life over the last several years has been family oriented. Um and uh our has been family oriented. Um and uh our has been family oriented. Um and uh our family, one of our children lives quite family, one of our children lives quite family, one of our children lives quite close to us here in Oxford with his his close to us here in Oxford with his his close to us here in Oxford with his his three children. The other three three children. The other three three children. The other three children, each of whom has one, are children, each of whom has one, are children, each of whom has one, are scattered slightly more widely. Um but scattered slightly more widely. Um but scattered slightly more widely. Um but we try to see as much of them as we can we try to see as much of them as we can we try to see as much of them as we can and either they come and see us or we go and either they come and see us or we go and either they come and see us or we go and see them. And then um we go up to and see them. And then um we go up to and see them. And then um we go up to Scotland as we did this summer to the Scotland as we did this summer to the Scotland as we did this summer to the new house that we've got up there and new house that we've got up there and new house that we've got up there and they came in waves and spent um uh time they came in waves and spent um uh time they came in waves and spent um uh time with us a week or a month or however with us a week or a month or however with us a week or a month or however long it was and just hanging out with long it was and just hanging out with long it was and just hanging out with family and doing fun things. Um going

family and doing fun things. Um going family and doing fun things. Um going for little walks and listening to music for little walks and listening to music for little walks and listening to music and watching quirky stuff on Netflix or and watching quirky stuff on Netflix or and watching quirky stuff on Netflix or um whatever it might be. Um the these um whatever it might be. Um the these um whatever it might be. Um the these these things have been very rich and we these things have been very rich and we these things have been very rich and we are we are blessed with some interesting are we are blessed with some interesting are we are blessed with some interesting quirky children and grandchildren who quirky children and grandchildren who quirky children and grandchildren who who never cease to surprise us in such who never cease to surprise us in such who never cease to surprise us in such some ways. Um and that's that's some ways. Um and that's that's some ways. Um and that's that's delightful. Um so that's that's been delightful. Um so that's that's been delightful. Um so that's that's been family has been really important. Um family has been really important. Um family has been really important. Um mind goes blank when you say that mind goes blank when you say that mind goes blank when you say that because I think you how did because I think you how did because I think you how did >> how did family work when you were you >> how did family work when you were you >> how did family work when you were you know when when your kids were young and know when when your kids were young and know when when your kids were young and you weren't a grandparent. How did that you weren't a grandparent. How did that you weren't a grandparent. How did that go? because you're studying studying go? because you're studying studying go? because you're studying studying studying you had you were a bishop you I studying you had you were a bishop you I studying you had you were a bishop you I mean you had academics mean you had academics mean you had academics >> by the time I was a bishop the family >> by the time I was a bishop the family >> by the time I was a bishop the family was a little bit older I guess they were was a little bit older I guess they were was a little bit older I guess they were um late teen hang on late teens early um late teen hang on late teens early um late teen hang on late teens early 20s by the time I became a bishop 2003 20s by the time I became a bishop 2003 20s by the time I became a bishop 2003 yes the youngest was I think um 23 or yes the youngest was I think um 23 or yes the youngest was I think um 23 or something when I became bishop but still something when I became bishop but still something when I became bishop but still before that when I was a college before that when I was a college before that when I was a college chaplain which is a hugely demanding and chaplain which is a hugely demanding and chaplain which is a hugely demanding and busy job during term busy job during term busy job during term But then when I was dean of a cathedral But then when I was dean of a cathedral But then when I was dean of a cathedral um that that was always quite contested um that that was always quite contested um that that was always quite contested because there were all sorts of because there were all sorts of because there were all sorts of pressures etc. We did try to factor in pressures etc. We did try to factor in pressures etc. We did try to factor in um quality time with the children and um quality time with the children and um quality time with the children and say we Maggie, my wife and myself would say we Maggie, my wife and myself would say we Maggie, my wife and myself would do that. But I remember we had about a do that. But I remember we had about a do that. But I remember we had about a year or two when and I'd read this tip year or two when and I'd read this tip year or two when and I'd read this tip somebody um had said in some magazine or

somebody um had said in some magazine or somebody um had said in some magazine or other um that that to say to your other um that that to say to your other um that that to say to your children um this coming Saturday um you children um this coming Saturday um you children um this coming Saturday um you can each have a whole hour of my time can each have a whole hour of my time can each have a whole hour of my time and whatever you want to do with that and whatever you want to do with that and whatever you want to do with that hour we will go and do that. um and uh hour we will go and do that. um and uh hour we will go and do that. um and uh an hour may not seem very long, but when an hour may not seem very long, but when an hour may not seem very long, but when it's entirely theirs and they would plan it's entirely theirs and they would plan it's entirely theirs and they would plan for it, can we go for a walk around such for it, can we go for a walk around such for it, can we go for a walk around such and such or or could we go to see um and such or or could we go to see um and such or or could we go to see um movie down the road or something? Um so movie down the road or something? Um so movie down the road or something? Um so that we we we tried to do some things that we we we tried to do some things that we we we tried to do some things like that where they knew that though I like that where they knew that though I like that where they knew that though I was hugely busy um there was some time was hugely busy um there was some time was hugely busy um there was some time which I really wanted to spend with them which I really wanted to spend with them which I really wanted to spend with them and and I still look back on some some and and I still look back on some some and and I still look back on some some fun things that we did in those times. fun things that we did in those times. fun things that we did in those times. Um but it's it's very much um grabbing Um but it's it's very much um grabbing Um but it's it's very much um grabbing time and opportunities here and there time and opportunities here and there time and opportunities here and there and and we we we used to make music and and we we we used to make music and and we we we used to make music together as a family a bit um uh singing together as a family a bit um uh singing together as a family a bit um uh singing together and and playing duets whatever. together and and playing duets whatever. together and and playing duets whatever. Um obviously we haven't done that much Um obviously we haven't done that much Um obviously we haven't done that much recently but um kids particularly the recently but um kids particularly the recently but um kids particularly the two boys um very accomplished musicians two boys um very accomplished musicians two boys um very accomplished musicians and um so so we've we've tried to do and um so so we've we've tried to do and um so so we've we've tried to do that as much as we could. Again, one that as much as we could. Again, one that as much as we could. Again, one could do more. Um, could do more. Um, could do more. Um, so, um, yeah, in terms of habits, so, um, yeah, in terms of habits, so, um, yeah, in terms of habits, it's hard to say. Hard to say. I mean, it's hard to say. Hard to say. I mean, it's hard to say. Hard to say. I mean, when I think of the things that some when I think of the things that some when I think of the things that some people would say that I haven't said, I people would say that I haven't said, I people would say that I haven't said, I am I am not a great art gallery goer. I am I am not a great art gallery goer. I am I am not a great art gallery goer. I always feel slightly guilty about that.

always feel slightly guilty about that. always feel slightly guilty about that. If I'm in a great city where there's If I'm in a great city where there's If I'm in a great city where there's some famous art gallery, I think I some famous art gallery, I think I some famous art gallery, I think I really ought to go and spend an really ought to go and spend an really ought to go and spend an afternoon there. But I can usually find afternoon there. But I can usually find afternoon there. But I can usually find a good reason for not doing that. a good reason for not doing that. a good reason for not doing that. I'll just go for a walk around the park I'll just go for a walk around the park I'll just go for a walk around the park or or sit on a bench and read a novel or or or sit on a bench and read a novel or or or sit on a bench and read a novel or something. Um I I have been to a few art something. Um I I have been to a few art something. Um I I have been to a few art galleries, of course, as one does, but galleries, of course, as one does, but galleries, of course, as one does, but um it's not not my not my my number one um it's not not my not my my number one um it's not not my not my my number one thing. So, friendships and family. I thing. So, friendships and family. I thing. So, friendships and family. I mean, I've been blessed with some mean, I've been blessed with some mean, I've been blessed with some wonderful friends. Um wonderful friends. Um wonderful friends. Um >> what have you learned about friendship, >> what have you learned about friendship, >> what have you learned about friendship, Tom? Tom? Tom? >> Well, well, well, well. [sighs] As an >> Well, well, well, well. [sighs] As an >> Well, well, well, well. [sighs] As an extrovert, it just sort of happens. Um, extrovert, it just sort of happens. Um, extrovert, it just sort of happens. Um, sometimes you feel you have to work at sometimes you feel you have to work at sometimes you feel you have to work at it a bit. Um, and sometimes you realize it a bit. Um, and sometimes you realize it a bit. Um, and sometimes you realize you've drifted away from somebody and you've drifted away from somebody and you've drifted away from somebody and you need to make the effort to say, "Can you need to make the effort to say, "Can you need to make the effort to say, "Can we meet for dinner in 3 weeks time?" And we meet for dinner in 3 weeks time?" And we meet for dinner in 3 weeks time?" And D, and put it in the diary. And my wife D, and put it in the diary. And my wife D, and put it in the diary. And my wife and I, having come back to Oxford, we've and I, having come back to Oxford, we've and I, having come back to Oxford, we've been trying to do that. Though the been trying to do that. Though the been trying to do that. Though the pandemic was a real downer because we pandemic was a real downer because we pandemic was a real downer because we came back to Oxford just before the came back to Oxford just before the came back to Oxford just before the pandemic, assuming we'd pick up with pandemic, assuming we'd pick up with pandemic, assuming we'd pick up with lots of old friends who were in Oxford.

lots of old friends who were in Oxford. lots of old friends who were in Oxford. And of course, for a year, nobody could And of course, for a year, nobody could And of course, for a year, nobody could see anybody. and we all kind of got out see anybody. and we all kind of got out see anybody. and we all kind of got out of the habit of it. Um, so that's been a of the habit of it. Um, so that's been a of the habit of it. Um, so that's been a bit odd and I I comparing notes, I know bit odd and I I comparing notes, I know bit odd and I I comparing notes, I know a lot of people have found the same a lot of people have found the same a lot of people have found the same thing. thing. thing. >> You um I said I'd put a pin in it and I >> You um I said I'd put a pin in it and I >> You um I said I'd put a pin in it and I want to come back to it. You know, in want to come back to it. You know, in want to come back to it. You know, in your new book, The Vision of Ephesians, your new book, The Vision of Ephesians, your new book, The Vision of Ephesians, uh, you obviously deal with the uh, you obviously deal with the uh, you obviously deal with the spiritual warfare passages that Paul spiritual warfare passages that Paul spiritual warfare passages that Paul has. So, I would love, you know, you has. So, I would love, you know, you has. So, I would love, you know, you mentioned when you were talking about mentioned when you were talking about mentioned when you were talking about people who pursued uh ordained clergy people who pursued uh ordained clergy people who pursued uh ordained clergy and, you know, they served their life in and, you know, they served their life in and, you know, they served their life in the church that they were going to have the church that they were going to have the church that they were going to have spiritual warfare. And I grew up always spiritual warfare. And I grew up always spiritual warfare. And I grew up always believing in the truth of the Bible. believing in the truth of the Bible. believing in the truth of the Bible. Read that passage in Ephesians and kind Read that passage in Ephesians and kind Read that passage in Ephesians and kind of thought, "Oh, that's nice. Maybe of thought, "Oh, that's nice. Maybe of thought, "Oh, that's nice. Maybe that's something they experienced or that's something they experienced or that's something they experienced or something people could potentially." something people could potentially." something people could potentially." Then I got into ministry and I'm like, Then I got into ministry and I'm like, Then I got into ministry and I'm like, "Oh, this is what this is about." Okay. "Oh, this is what this is about." Okay. "Oh, this is what this is about." Okay. How how have you seen or how do you see How how have you seen or how do you see How how have you seen or how do you see spiritual warfare playing out spiritual warfare playing out spiritual warfare playing out particularly in the lives of pastors? particularly in the lives of pastors? particularly in the lives of pastors? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's always murky because um evil is It's always murky because um evil is It's always murky because um evil is always murky. It's it's very seldom always murky. It's it's very seldom always murky. It's it's very seldom clearly defined. It very seldom comes clearly defined. It very seldom comes clearly defined. It very seldom comes and knocks on your front door and says and knocks on your front door and says and knocks on your front door and says um I am evil. Will you come with me and um I am evil. Will you come with me and um I am evil. Will you come with me and do what I tell you? It's much more do what I tell you? It's much more do what I tell you? It's much more subtle than that. and it's on the edge subtle than that. and it's on the edge subtle than that. and it's on the edge of something. Um, you know, CS Lewis is of something. Um, you know, CS Lewis is of something. Um, you know, CS Lewis is awfully good on this where he says that awfully good on this where he says that awfully good on this where he says that old so and so comes up to you after old so and so comes up to you after old so and so comes up to you after lunch one day and says, "Now, a lot of lunch one day and says, "Now, a lot of lunch one day and says, "Now, a lot of us were thinking it'd be really good if us were thinking it'd be really good if us were thinking it'd be really good if you could help us with this project."

you could help us with this project." you could help us with this project." Um, and you know, you think, "Oh, well, Um, and you know, you think, "Oh, well, Um, and you know, you think, "Oh, well, that's nice. They they want me to help." that's nice. They they want me to help." that's nice. They they want me to help." And then you just something on the edge And then you just something on the edge And then you just something on the edge of it makes you think, "Oh, dear, what of it makes you think, "Oh, dear, what of it makes you think, "Oh, dear, what am I getting into here?" Whatever it may am I getting into here?" Whatever it may am I getting into here?" Whatever it may be. Um and Lewis was very good at seeing be. Um and Lewis was very good at seeing be. Um and Lewis was very good at seeing the early stages of how um one can get the early stages of how um one can get the early stages of how um one can get drawn into things which are basically um drawn into things which are basically um drawn into things which are basically um dehumanizing and and uh I mean but but dehumanizing and and uh I mean but but dehumanizing and and uh I mean but but again the line between um ordinary human again the line between um ordinary human again the line between um ordinary human folly and spiritual warfare fullon you folly and spiritual warfare fullon you folly and spiritual warfare fullon you know wrestling with principalities and know wrestling with principalities and know wrestling with principalities and powers that there there is no hard and powers that there there is no hard and powers that there there is no hard and fast line as far as I can see. It's fast line as far as I can see. It's fast line as far as I can see. It's interesting that in the New Testament, interesting that in the New Testament, interesting that in the New Testament, each time Paul lists principalities and each time Paul lists principalities and each time Paul lists principalities and powers, you know, thrones, dominions, powers, you know, thrones, dominions, powers, you know, thrones, dominions, authorities, rulers, etc., etc., in authorities, rulers, etc., etc., in authorities, rulers, etc., etc., in Greek, arai, exusi, and so on. The lists Greek, arai, exusi, and so on. The lists Greek, arai, exusi, and so on. The lists never come out the same, never come out the same, never come out the same, >> which implies to me um that these are >> which implies to me um that these are >> which implies to me um that these are not precise dictionary defined things not precise dictionary defined things not precise dictionary defined things where this is an AR and this is an where this is an AR and this is an where this is an AR and this is an exuzia and this is a something and this exuzia and this is a something and this exuzia and this is a something and this is a something. It's just that he is is a something. It's just that he is is a something. It's just that he is aware of a shadowy world um just behind aware of a shadowy world um just behind aware of a shadowy world um just behind the veil as it were where there are the veil as it were where there are the veil as it were where there are whether he calls them doni or whatever whether he calls them doni or whatever whether he calls them doni or whatever um shadowy little figures who are not um shadowy little figures who are not um shadowy little figures who are not divine themselves but they're trying to divine themselves but they're trying to divine themselves but they're trying to lure you um into the paths of folly and lure you um into the paths of folly and lure you um into the paths of folly and of unfruitfulness for the gospel. And I

of unfruitfulness for the gospel. And I of unfruitfulness for the gospel. And I mean part of it might just be um to mean part of it might just be um to mean part of it might just be um to waste your time to spend half a day waste your time to spend half a day waste your time to spend half a day doing something which deep down you know doing something which deep down you know doing something which deep down you know this really isn't advancing your wisdom this really isn't advancing your wisdom this really isn't advancing your wisdom your love for God. your love for God. your love for God. >> Wasting time could be a ploy of the >> Wasting time could be a ploy of the >> Wasting time could be a ploy of the enemy. enemy. enemy. >> Wasting time. Yeah. And and and and >> Wasting time. Yeah. And and and and >> Wasting time. Yeah. And and and and that's that's um maybe I get obsessive that's that's um maybe I get obsessive that's that's um maybe I get obsessive about that from an early age. I had about that from an early age. I had about that from an early age. I had somebody rub my nose in Colossians 4 somebody rub my nose in Colossians 4 somebody rub my nose in Colossians 4 where Paul says redeeming the time where Paul says redeeming the time where Paul says redeeming the time because the days are evil. Um and so you because the days are evil. Um and so you because the days are evil. Um and so you know no doubt I have wasted whole know no doubt I have wasted whole know no doubt I have wasted whole quantities of time many many times but quantities of time many many times but quantities of time many many times but but um I think that sense that um if but um I think that sense that um if but um I think that sense that um if there is a period of half an hour, an there is a period of half an hour, an there is a period of half an hour, an hour, two hours, whatever to have hour, two hours, whatever to have hour, two hours, whatever to have something worthwhile to do and if the something worthwhile to do and if the something worthwhile to do and if the mind has been overt taxed and going too mind has been overt taxed and going too mind has been overt taxed and going too fast then it might just be doing a cross fast then it might just be doing a cross fast then it might just be doing a cross word puzzle or a sudoku puzzle or word puzzle or a sudoku puzzle or word puzzle or a sudoku puzzle or something which will just exercise the something which will just exercise the something which will just exercise the mind in a different way and and be mind in a different way and and be mind in a different way and and be refreshing. It's like mentally going for refreshing. It's like mentally going for refreshing. It's like mentally going for a walk. Fine. Okay. Or going for an a walk. Fine. Okay. Or going for an a walk. Fine. Okay. Or going for an actual walk would be the same the same actual walk would be the same the same actual walk would be the same the same answer in a way. But but so it's it's answer in a way. But but so it's it's answer in a way. But but so it's it's but it's obviously not just wasting but it's obviously not just wasting but it's obviously not just wasting time. It's wasting time in such a way as time. It's wasting time in such a way as time. It's wasting time in such a way as to feed wrong habits of heart and mind to feed wrong habits of heart and mind to feed wrong habits of heart and mind and soul and strength. Um uh doing and soul and strength. Um uh doing and soul and strength. Um uh doing things which take you away from a sense things which take you away from a sense things which take you away from a sense of the presence of the love of God. Um, of the presence of the love of God. Um, of the presence of the love of God. Um, and and and sometimes you only discover that by

sometimes you only discover that by sometimes you only discover that by making the wrong choices and then a making the wrong choices and then a making the wrong choices and then a little way down the track realizing that little way down the track realizing that little way down the track realizing that this just has not been helpful. Paul this just has not been helpful. Paul this just has not been helpful. Paul says, "All things are lawful for me, but says, "All things are lawful for me, but says, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful." And I think not all things are helpful." And I think not all things are helpful." And I think it's learning to recognize the helpful it's learning to recognize the helpful it's learning to recognize the helpful and unhelpful. But in a sense, that's and unhelpful. But in a sense, that's and unhelpful. But in a sense, that's the foothills and the larger mountains the foothills and the larger mountains the foothills and the larger mountains are when there really suddenly is a are when there really suddenly is a are when there really suddenly is a major battle. You know, I remember one major battle. You know, I remember one major battle. You know, I remember one guy who trained in Montreal for ministry guy who trained in Montreal for ministry guy who trained in Montreal for ministry when I was teaching in Montreal um who when I was teaching in Montreal um who when I was teaching in Montreal um who had a wonderful early ministry and then had a wonderful early ministry and then had a wonderful early ministry and then he was um sent by the bishop to go and he was um sent by the bishop to go and he was um sent by the bishop to go and run a parish at a particular point in run a parish at a particular point in run a parish at a particular point in the city where there was basically quite the city where there was basically quite the city where there was basically quite a lot of vice with a capital V. And he a lot of vice with a capital V. And he a lot of vice with a capital V. And he started uh church activities in the started uh church activities in the started uh church activities in the middle of a world where basically the middle of a world where basically the middle of a world where basically the principalities and powers had been principalities and powers had been principalities and powers had been running the show for quite a long time. running the show for quite a long time. running the show for quite a long time. and he came down with the most and he came down with the most and he came down with the most extraordinary sicknesses and and had to extraordinary sicknesses and and had to extraordinary sicknesses and and had to be prayed over and healed. I'm not be prayed over and healed. I'm not be prayed over and healed. I'm not saying he was demonpossessed or saying he was demonpossessed or saying he was demonpossessed or anything, but bad things happened to him anything, but bad things happened to him anything, but bad things happened to him and his family because he was taking the and his family because he was taking the and his family because he was taking the fight to the enemy and and you know, fight to the enemy and and you know, fight to the enemy and and you know, we're not all called to do that in such we're not all called to do that in such we're not all called to do that in such an explicit way. But if we are, don't an explicit way. But if we are, don't an explicit way. But if we are, don't expect that the principalities and expect that the principalities and expect that the principalities and powers will take it lightly as I I mean powers will take it lightly as I I mean powers will take it lightly as I I mean in my book on Paul's biography um Paul a in my book on Paul's biography um Paul a in my book on Paul's biography um Paul a biography um I talk about what happened biography um I talk about what happened biography um I talk about what happened to Paul in Ephesus when he says uh it to Paul in Ephesus when he says uh it to Paul in Ephesus when he says uh it was so bad that I despaed of life itself was so bad that I despaed of life itself was so bad that I despaed of life itself and I think the answer is Paul's earlier

and I think the answer is Paul's earlier and I think the answer is Paul's earlier time in Ephesus had been a huge success time in Ephesus had been a huge success time in Ephesus had been a huge success and magicians had come and burnt their and magicians had come and burnt their and magicians had come and burnt their books and so on and then the dark powers books and so on and then the dark powers books and so on and then the dark powers when they strike back they don't fight when they strike back they don't fight when they strike back they don't fight fair they do all kinds of sneaky things fair they do all kinds of sneaky things fair they do all kinds of sneaky things and and Paul found himself in a really and and Paul found himself in a really and and Paul found himself in a really really dark and bad place. And when really dark and bad place. And when really dark and bad place. And when that's going on, I think that's what's that's going on, I think that's what's that's going on, I think that's what's reflected in Ephesians 6. And we're not reflected in Ephesians 6. And we're not reflected in Ephesians 6. And we're not wrestling and and it's such an important wrestling and and it's such an important wrestling and and it's such an important point. We are not wrestling against point. We are not wrestling against point. We are not wrestling against flesh and blood today. There are many flesh and blood today. There are many flesh and blood today. There are many people in Christian circles and outside people in Christian circles and outside people in Christian circles and outside who have [clears throat] political who have [clears throat] political who have [clears throat] political battles they want to fight and so easily battles they want to fight and so easily battles they want to fight and so easily label their opponents in whichever label their opponents in whichever label their opponents in whichever social or cultural issue they're dealing social or cultural issue they're dealing social or cultural issue they're dealing with as though they are demonic and and with as though they are demonic and and with as though they are demonic and and then they want to fight them and then they want to fight them and then they want to fight them and sometimes quite literally to fight them sometimes quite literally to fight them sometimes quite literally to fight them whereas Paul insists no the real battle whereas Paul insists no the real battle whereas Paul insists no the real battle is elsewhere the human beings that you is elsewhere the human beings that you is elsewhere the human beings that you may have to deal with who may be muddled may have to deal with who may be muddled may have to deal with who may be muddled and misguided as in a sense we all are and misguided as in a sense we all are and misguided as in a sense we all are um they are not the real problem and if um they are not the real problem and if um they are not the real problem and if you think they are you're merely um you think they are you're merely um you think they are you're merely um colluding with the demonic powers colluding with the demonic powers colluding with the demonic powers themselves and that that's a lesson I themselves and that that's a lesson I themselves and that that's a lesson I mean Jesus said don't be afraid of those mean Jesus said don't be afraid of those mean Jesus said don't be afraid of those who kill the body and then have nothing who kill the body and then have nothing who kill the body and then have nothing else they can do be afraid of the one else they can do be afraid of the one else they can do be afraid of the one who has other designs on your whole self who has other designs on your whole self who has other designs on your whole self here and hereafter um which was a way of here and hereafter um which was a way of here and hereafter um which was a way of saying look guys the Romans are a saying look guys the Romans are a saying look guys the Romans are a problem but they're not the real problem problem but they're not the real problem problem but they're not the real problem um you know The tax collectors are a um you know The tax collectors are a um you know The tax collectors are a problem, but they're not the real problem, but they're not the real problem, but they're not the real problem. Um, we've got to defeat the

problem. Um, we've got to defeat the problem. Um, we've got to defeat the enemy, uh, the unseen but very powerful enemy, uh, the unseen but very powerful enemy, uh, the unseen but very powerful enemy who is the puppet master for these enemy who is the puppet master for these enemy who is the puppet master for these little puppets. Don't don't sweat the little puppets. Don't don't sweat the little puppets. Don't don't sweat the puppets. Um, make sure you're focused on puppets. Um, make sure you're focused on puppets. Um, make sure you're focused on um the the whole armor of God. Um, you um the the whole armor of God. Um, you um the the whole armor of God. Um, you see, one of the things, you'll have seen see, one of the things, you'll have seen see, one of the things, you'll have seen it in the book at that point. Um this it in the book at that point. Um this it in the book at that point. Um this was one of the places where when I was was one of the places where when I was was one of the places where when I was doing the lectures that led into that doing the lectures that led into that doing the lectures that led into that book um I I I for the first time I think book um I I I for the first time I think book um I I I for the first time I think I don't remember doing it before I I don't remember doing it before I I don't remember doing it before I looked up the Old Testament background looked up the Old Testament background looked up the Old Testament background for the shield of faith and the helmet for the shield of faith and the helmet for the shield of faith and the helmet of salvation and the breastplate of of salvation and the breastplate of of salvation and the breastplate of righteousness etc. righteousness etc. righteousness etc. They're mostly from the back end of They're mostly from the back end of They're mostly from the back end of Isaiah and there's some from elsewhere Isaiah and there's some from elsewhere Isaiah and there's some from elsewhere as well and they're all about God's own as well and they're all about God's own as well and they're all about God's own armor. God says, "I am going to come and armor. God says, "I am going to come and armor. God says, "I am going to come and wear these things and deal with the evil wear these things and deal with the evil wear these things and deal with the evil that's out there in the world." And Paul that's out there in the world." And Paul that's out there in the world." And Paul is saying, once you are seated in the is saying, once you are seated in the is saying, once you are seated in the heavenly places in Christ, you are heavenly places in Christ, you are heavenly places in Christ, you are joining God himself in dealing with the joining God himself in dealing with the joining God himself in dealing with the problems that still have to be dealt problems that still have to be dealt problems that still have to be dealt with. Allah First Corinthians 15, he with. Allah First Corinthians 15, he with. Allah First Corinthians 15, he must reign until he's put all his must reign until he's put all his must reign until he's put all his enemies under his feet. Um, and that was enemies under his feet. Um, and that was enemies under his feet. Um, and that was that was a whole revelation to me. These that was a whole revelation to me. These that was a whole revelation to me. These are not just handy tips as a preachers's are not just handy tips as a preachers's are not just handy tips as a preachers's hint about the breastplate of hint about the breastplate of hint about the breastplate of righteousness, the belt of truth, etc.

righteousness, the belt of truth, etc. righteousness, the belt of truth, etc. Um the these are ways of saying uh God Um the these are ways of saying uh God Um the these are ways of saying uh God [clears throat] has won the victory in [clears throat] has won the victory in [clears throat] has won the victory in Christ in his death, resurrection and Christ in his death, resurrection and Christ in his death, resurrection and ascension. But that victory has to be ascension. But that victory has to be ascension. But that victory has to be implemented until the last enemy is implemented until the last enemy is implemented until the last enemy is destroyed which is death. We are in destroyed which is death. We are in destroyed which is death. We are in between those two and you are joining in between those two and you are joining in between those two and you are joining in with being required to hold the line. with being required to hold the line. with being required to hold the line. These are all defensive weapons except These are all defensive weapons except These are all defensive weapons except for the sword of the spirit and we are for the sword of the spirit and we are for the sword of the spirit and we are required to hold that line against the required to hold that line against the required to hold that line against the powers that are trying to strike back powers that are trying to strike back powers that are trying to strike back against the victory that was won on the against the victory that was won on the against the victory that was won on the cross. Um I'll say one more thing and cross. Um I'll say one more thing and cross. Um I'll say one more thing and I'm sorry this is a ramble but but I'm sorry this is a ramble but but I'm sorry this is a ramble but but >> no this is really good. Um uh I >> no this is really good. Um uh I >> no this is really good. Um uh I discovered early on, I mean when I was I discovered early on, I mean when I was I discovered early on, I mean when I was I think still in my late 20s that whenever think still in my late 20s that whenever think still in my late 20s that whenever I was preaching or teaching and got I was preaching or teaching and got I was preaching or teaching and got anywhere near the real meaning of the anywhere near the real meaning of the anywhere near the real meaning of the cross that almost literature literally cross that almost literature literally cross that almost literature literally all the furniture in the room would all the furniture in the room would all the furniture in the room would start jumping around. I mean, uh, it it start jumping around. I mean, uh, it it start jumping around. I mean, uh, it it got to be funny that I would just move got to be funny that I would just move got to be funny that I would just move into the paragraph that was dealing with into the paragraph that was dealing with into the paragraph that was dealing with what's really going on on the cross and what's really going on on the cross and what's really going on on the cross and suddenly a lawn mower would start up in suddenly a lawn mower would start up in suddenly a lawn mower would start up in the in the garden outside so that nobody the in the garden outside so that nobody the in the garden outside so that nobody could hear what I was saying and we'd could hear what I was saying and we'd could hear what I was saying and we'd have to shut a window and break the have to shut a window and break the have to shut a window and break the concentration. And I I've had that so concentration. And I I've had that so concentration. And I I've had that so often that I've sometimes when it's often that I've sometimes when it's often that I've sometimes when it's happened, I've said to students, you happened, I've said to students, you happened, I've said to students, you need to know this is the sort of thing need to know this is the sort of thing need to know this is the sort of thing that happens. And when that happens, you that happens. And when that happens, you that happens. And when that happens, you can take courage because it probably

can take courage because it probably can take courage because it probably means you've got your finger on means you've got your finger on means you've got your finger on something important and it's worth something important and it's worth something important and it's worth somebody striking back. But it's somebody striking back. But it's somebody striking back. But it's happened far too often for me for it to happened far too often for me for it to happened far too often for me for it to be mere coincidence or imagine be mere coincidence or imagine be mere coincidence or imagine >> coincidence. So it's it's like uh like >> coincidence. So it's it's like uh like >> coincidence. So it's it's like uh like distraction in one form or another. distraction in one form or another. distraction in one form or another. >> Exactly. Exactly. Something to put you >> Exactly. Exactly. Something to put you >> Exactly. Exactly. Something to put you off. off. off. >> Something to put you off. Um and I can >> Something to put you off. Um and I can >> Something to put you off. Um and I can recall specific instances of such. Um or recall specific instances of such. Um or recall specific instances of such. Um or when a a student suddenly faints in the when a a student suddenly faints in the when a a student suddenly faints in the front row or something like that, you front row or something like that, you front row or something like that, you might break out that once. might break out that once. might break out that once. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I thought, was it something I said? >> And I thought, was it something I said? >> And I thought, was it something I said? You know, the answer, yeah, probably. You know, the answer, yeah, probably. You know, the answer, yeah, probably. >> Tom, you said something really >> Tom, you said something really >> Tom, you said something really important. I remember preaching through important. I remember preaching through important. I remember preaching through Ephesians. This is almost 20 years ago. Ephesians. This is almost 20 years ago. Ephesians. This is almost 20 years ago. And it's funny because you you you And it's funny because you you you And it's funny because you you you reminded me of something where having reminded me of something where having reminded me of something where having you know I I don't exedute text the way you know I I don't exedute text the way you know I I don't exedute text the way you ex exedute texts but I remember you ex exedute texts but I remember you ex exedute texts but I remember having everybody in the church stand up having everybody in the church stand up having everybody in the church stand up and looking at each other and it was and looking at each other and it was and looking at each other and it was particularly powerful with spouses and I particularly powerful with spouses and I particularly powerful with spouses and I said look the person in the eye and just said look the person in the eye and just said look the person in the eye and just say to them you are not my enemy. You say to them you are not my enemy. You say to them you are not my enemy. You are not my enemy. We had the whole are not my enemy. We had the whole are not my enemy. We had the whole church do that and then everybody sat church do that and then everybody sat church do that and then everybody sat down. And I said, "The enemy is a down. And I said, "The enemy is a down. And I said, "The enemy is a principality in powers." And often we principality in powers." And often we principality in powers." And often we demonize our opponents. We demonize our demonize our opponents. We demonize our demonize our opponents. We demonize our spouse, our ex, our person across the spouse, our ex, our person across the spouse, our ex, our person across the aisle politically. Do you want to talk a aisle politically. Do you want to talk a aisle politically. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? Because we little bit more about that? Because we little bit more about that? Because we are in a cultural moment right now where are in a cultural moment right now where are in a cultural moment right now where we are demonizing everybody we disagree we are demonizing everybody we disagree we are demonizing everybody we disagree with.

with. with. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. I I I look across the >> Yep. Yep. Yep. I I I look across the >> Yep. Yep. Yep. I I I look across the pond from my British perspective and and pond from my British perspective and and pond from my British perspective and and grieve over what's happening in America. grieve over what's happening in America. grieve over what's happening in America. And I mean Maggie and I have got friends And I mean Maggie and I have got friends And I mean Maggie and I have got friends in various places in America and she's in various places in America and she's in various places in America and she's got some relatives as well, various got some relatives as well, various got some relatives as well, various places in America. And sometimes when we places in America. And sometimes when we places in America. And sometimes when we have conversations with them, Maggie and have conversations with them, Maggie and have conversations with them, Maggie and I simply don't know where to put I simply don't know where to put I simply don't know where to put ourselves because what they are saying ourselves because what they are saying ourselves because what they are saying seems so counterintuitive. Um, and then seems so counterintuitive. Um, and then seems so counterintuitive. Um, and then we say, "Is that because we read the we say, "Is that because we read the we say, "Is that because we read the London Times? Is this because we listen London Times? Is this because we listen London Times? Is this because we listen to the BBC? Are they biased? Is it us to the BBC? Are they biased? Is it us to the BBC? Are they biased? Is it us that's wrong? or are these people and that's wrong? or are these people and that's wrong? or are these people and and and and what's happened in America over the last what's happened in America over the last what's happened in America over the last couple of decades has been really really couple of decades has been really really couple of decades has been really really worrying and I I hear um I I've recently worrying and I I hear um I I've recently worrying and I I hear um I I've recently read James Davidson Hunter's new book read James Davidson Hunter's new book read James Davidson Hunter's new book Democracy and Solidarity which is so Democracy and Solidarity which is so Democracy and Solidarity which is so important where he says that looking important where he says that looking important where he says that looking back over the last 30 years the American back over the last 30 years the American back over the last 30 years the American institutional cultural life has been institutional cultural life has been institutional cultural life has been hollowed out um leaving simply exactly hollowed out um leaving simply exactly hollowed out um leaving simply exactly as Nichi said it would um a power as Nichi said it would um a power as Nichi said it would um a power struggle that it's simply um this brute struggle that it's simply um this brute struggle that it's simply um this brute force versus that brute brute force and force versus that brute brute force and force versus that brute brute force and again and again I want to say the issues again and again I want to say the issues again and again I want to say the issues are not like that actually we tend to are not like that actually we tend to are not like that actually we tend to push this way and that and then anyone push this way and that and then anyone push this way and that and then anyone who takes up a position over there it's who takes up a position over there it's who takes up a position over there it's assumed that they will also take up all assumed that they will also take up all assumed that they will also take up all the other 19 things that normally go

the other 19 things that normally go the other 19 things that normally go with that position with that position with that position >> right I said this one thing therefore I >> right I said this one thing therefore I >> right I said this one thing therefore I stand for all of these things stand for all of these things stand for all of these things >> exactly exactly >> exactly exactly >> exactly exactly Um and and uh you know I I was was Um and and uh you know I I was was Um and and uh you know I I was was pleased with the Pope the other day. pleased with the Pope the other day. pleased with the Pope the other day. Fancy me being pleased with the pope. Fancy me being pleased with the pope. Fancy me being pleased with the pope. How patronizing can I get? But you know How patronizing can I get? But you know How patronizing can I get? But you know what I mean. Um when he he said apppropo what I mean. Um when he he said apppropo what I mean. Um when he he said apppropo the the pro-life agenda that um or on the the pro-life agenda that um or on the the pro-life agenda that um or on the abortion issue that that um okay to the abortion issue that that um okay to the abortion issue that that um okay to be pro-life, but if you're pro-life, you be pro-life, but if you're pro-life, you be pro-life, but if you're pro-life, you have to be against the death penalty as have to be against the death penalty as have to be against the death penalty as well. Uh he knew perfectly well what he well. Uh he knew perfectly well what he well. Uh he knew perfectly well what he was saying. um you know that there are was saying. um you know that there are was saying. um you know that there are plenty of people who are passionately plenty of people who are passionately plenty of people who are passionately opposed to abortion but also thoroughly opposed to abortion but also thoroughly opposed to abortion but also thoroughly in favor of the death penalty and he's in favor of the death penalty and he's in favor of the death penalty and he's saying just just let's be serious here saying just just let's be serious here saying just just let's be serious here and I would say the same looking as a and I would say the same looking as a and I would say the same looking as a Brit at American society about gun Brit at American society about gun Brit at American society about gun control that you know you you're you're control that you know you you're you're control that you know you you're you're very concerned about the life of the very concerned about the life of the very concerned about the life of the unborn child in the womb but as soon as unborn child in the womb but as soon as unborn child in the womb but as soon as that child goes to kindergarten you're that child goes to kindergarten you're that child goes to kindergarten you're quite happy that some drunken quite happy that some drunken quite happy that some drunken 18-year-old should go down the street 18-year-old should go down the street 18-year-old should go down the street buy an AK-47 and come and spray the fool buy an AK-47 and come and spray the fool buy an AK-47 and come and spray the fool with with bullets, you know, um and you with with bullets, you know, um and you with with bullets, you know, um and you say, "Oh, well, you know, we have to say, "Oh, well, you know, we have to say, "Oh, well, you know, we have to have a bit of that because that's the have a bit of that because that's the have a bit of that because that's the price of of the Second Amen amendment price of of the Second Amen amendment price of of the Second Amen amendment and the Second Amendment is so um and the Second Amendment is so um and the Second Amendment is so um important, etc." Now, important, etc." Now, important, etc." Now, for for most other people in the rest of for for most other people in the rest of for for most other people in the rest of the world, this is just total nonsense.

the world, this is just total nonsense. the world, this is just total nonsense. Um but trying to get some American Um but trying to get some American Um but trying to get some American friends to see this is is very friends to see this is is very friends to see this is is very difficult. and they would immediately, I difficult. and they would immediately, I difficult. and they would immediately, I know because I've had this, they would know because I've had this, they would know because I've had this, they would explain to me why the Second Amendment explain to me why the Second Amendment explain to me why the Second Amendment is what it is and why it still matters is what it is and why it still matters is what it is and why it still matters and so on. And okay, fine, that's where and so on. And okay, fine, that's where and so on. And okay, fine, that's where you are, but please hear that there you are, but please hear that there you are, but please hear that there might be other ways of doing this. Um, might be other ways of doing this. Um, might be other ways of doing this. Um, so so that um our trouble is in Britain, so so that um our trouble is in Britain, so so that um our trouble is in Britain, we aren't getting anything right we aren't getting anything right we aren't getting anything right particularly. We're just muddled as particularly. We're just muddled as particularly. We're just muddled as usual. um you know what what tends to usual. um you know what what tends to usual. um you know what what tends to happen is agendas get made in Germany or happen is agendas get made in Germany or happen is agendas get made in Germany or France or so somewhere transferred France or so somewhere transferred France or so somewhere transferred across via the enlightenment links to across via the enlightenment links to across via the enlightenment links to North America where they get magnified North America where they get magnified North America where they get magnified this way and that and we in Britain look this way and that and we in Britain look this way and that and we in Britain look this way and that and think what's all this way and that and think what's all this way and that and think what's all the fuss about and does doesn't mean the fuss about and does doesn't mean the fuss about and does doesn't mean doesn't mean we're hugely virtuous it doesn't mean we're hugely virtuous it doesn't mean we're hugely virtuous it just means that we don't tend to just means that we don't tend to just means that we don't tend to polarize in that we have our polarities polarize in that we have our polarities polarize in that we have our polarities but we don't tend to polarize in that but we don't tend to polarize in that but we don't tend to polarize in that way way way >> you don't you don't polarize you don't >> you don't you don't polarize you don't >> you don't you don't polarize you don't demonize nice in the same way we get a demonize nice in the same way we get a demonize nice in the same way we get a little more of America here in Canada little more of America here in Canada little more of America here in Canada where I'm, you know, resonanced. But I'm where I'm, you know, resonanced. But I'm where I'm, you know, resonanced. But I'm curious, curious, curious, you know, if someone felt convicted you know, if someone felt convicted you know, if someone felt convicted about demonizing the other side. And I about demonizing the other side. And I about demonizing the other side. And I think, you know, when you lose the image think, you know, when you lose the image think, you know, when you lose the image of Christ in somebody, whether that can of Christ in somebody, whether that can of Christ in somebody, whether that can be someone who's unhoused, homeless, be someone who's unhoused, homeless, be someone who's unhoused, homeless, whether that's a drug addict, whether whether that's a drug addict, whether whether that's a drug addict, whether that is somebody who votes the opposite that is somebody who votes the opposite that is somebody who votes the opposite way that you do, or the preacher down way that you do, or the preacher down way that you do, or the preacher down the street who you don't like, right? We the street who you don't like, right? We the street who you don't like, right? We tend to demonize.

tend to demonize. tend to demonize. If somebody is realizing, okay, I'm If somebody is realizing, okay, I'm If somebody is realizing, okay, I'm demonizing. What is a path out of that demonizing. What is a path out of that demonizing. What is a path out of that mischaracterization of another human? >> It's tough. I mean, for me as a good >> It's tough. I mean, for me as a good Anglican, um, so many issues of Anglican, um, so many issues of Anglican, um, so many issues of spiritual health, um, etc. come back to spiritual health, um, etc. come back to spiritual health, um, etc. come back to the Eucharist that that whatever's going the Eucharist that that whatever's going the Eucharist that that whatever's going on in life um the breaking of bread and on in life um the breaking of bread and on in life um the breaking of bread and the sharing of wine. Paul says as often the sharing of wine. Paul says as often the sharing of wine. Paul says as often as you break the bread and drink the as you break the bread and drink the as you break the bread and drink the wine, you proclaim the Lord's death wine, you proclaim the Lord's death wine, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. And that doesn't mean until he comes. And that doesn't mean until he comes. And that doesn't mean it's a good opportunity for a sermon on it's a good opportunity for a sermon on it's a good opportunity for a sermon on the cross, though that might be so as the cross, though that might be so as the cross, though that might be so as well. It means that when you're doing well. It means that when you're doing well. It means that when you're doing this, you are saying to the this, you are saying to the this, you are saying to the principalities and powers, Jesus is Lord principalities and powers, Jesus is Lord principalities and powers, Jesus is Lord and you aren't. Now, how do we go out and you aren't. Now, how do we go out and you aren't. Now, how do we go out from here? And when I've been in from here? And when I've been in from here? And when I've been in pastoral ministry particularly, I found pastoral ministry particularly, I found pastoral ministry particularly, I found I had to do that again and again where I had to do that again and again where I had to do that again and again where huge issues would come up and I would huge issues would come up and I would huge issues would come up and I would bring them into the college chapel with bring them into the college chapel with bring them into the college chapel with me and I would break the bread and we'd me and I would break the bread and we'd me and I would break the bread and we'd share the wine share the wine share the wine and then we'd go out and deal with and then we'd go out and deal with and then we'd go out and deal with whatever it was. And somehow, I mean, whatever it was. And somehow, I mean, whatever it was. And somehow, I mean, this is a very sort of typical this is a very sort of typical this is a very sort of typical sacramental Anglican thing to say, but sacramental Anglican thing to say, but sacramental Anglican thing to say, but somehow that reality, that physical somehow that reality, that physical somehow that reality, that physical reality as a way of saying we believe in reality as a way of saying we believe in reality as a way of saying we believe in new creation. We believe in a in not new creation. We believe in a in not new creation. We believe in a in not just a a non-material spiritual world,

just a a non-material spiritual world, just a a non-material spiritual world, but in in God's new creation having but in in God's new creation having but in in God's new creation having already begun in Jesus and mysteriously already begun in Jesus and mysteriously already begun in Jesus and mysteriously continuing through us. And so to bring continuing through us. And so to bring continuing through us. And so to bring the problems into the Eucharist and then the problems into the Eucharist and then the problems into the Eucharist and then see what happens. Now when it's somebody see what happens. Now when it's somebody see what happens. Now when it's somebody that you're having a difficulty with um that you're having a difficulty with um that you're having a difficulty with um in the congregation or a fellow clergy in the congregation or a fellow clergy in the congregation or a fellow clergy whatever which often sadly happens then whatever which often sadly happens then whatever which often sadly happens then ideally you would find a wise person ideally you would find a wise person ideally you would find a wise person with whom to share that so it isn't a with whom to share that so it isn't a with whom to share that so it isn't a power thing between the two of you. have power thing between the two of you. have power thing between the two of you. have at least a triangle of conversation, but at least a triangle of conversation, but at least a triangle of conversation, but at a certain point to hope and pray that at a certain point to hope and pray that at a certain point to hope and pray that you'll be able to get to the place where you'll be able to get to the place where you'll be able to get to the place where you could share the Eucharist together. you could share the Eucharist together. you could share the Eucharist together. Um, and actually look each other in the Um, and actually look each other in the Um, and actually look each other in the eye and give each other the the peace of eye and give each other the the peace of eye and give each other the the peace of Christ. Um, and that that's tough uh and Christ. Um, and that that's tough uh and Christ. Um, and that that's tough uh and and very very demanding. And sometimes and very very demanding. And sometimes and very very demanding. And sometimes it's sometimes it's too much and and you it's sometimes it's too much and and you it's sometimes it's too much and and you know then it takes wise pastoral skill know then it takes wise pastoral skill know then it takes wise pastoral skill to know when to say this has to be done to know when to say this has to be done to know when to say this has to be done when to say let's work towards this in 3 when to say let's work towards this in 3 when to say let's work towards this in 3 months time or whatever. Um and months time or whatever. Um and months time or whatever. Um and meanwhile we'll pray for wisdom and pray meanwhile we'll pray for wisdom and pray meanwhile we'll pray for wisdom and pray for one another. Um so the the but but for one another. Um so the the but but for one another. Um so the the but but um sensitivity to the internal dynamics um sensitivity to the internal dynamics um sensitivity to the internal dynamics and to the larger spiritual context of and to the larger spiritual context of and to the larger spiritual context of the church and the people I think is the church and the people I think is the church and the people I think is absolutely vital.

absolutely vital. absolutely vital. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> We've covered an awful lot and I want to >> We've covered an awful lot and I want to >> We've covered an awful lot and I want to honor your time. Is there anything honor your time. Is there anything honor your time. Is there anything >> that we touched on that you want to say >> that we touched on that you want to say >> that we touched on that you want to say more about? Anything we totally left more about? Anything we totally left more about? Anything we totally left out? Uh I mean we're going to direct out? Uh I mean we're going to direct out? Uh I mean we're going to direct people to your new book, The Vision of people to your new book, The Vision of people to your new book, The Vision of Ephesians, Ephesians, Ephesians, >> which is fantastic and and beautifully >> which is fantastic and and beautifully >> which is fantastic and and beautifully brief, too. Comprehensive and deep, but brief, too. Comprehensive and deep, but brief, too. Comprehensive and deep, but brief. brief. brief. >> Well, I mean, that that's simply a >> Well, I mean, that that's simply a >> Well, I mean, that that's simply a function of the of the the format. And I function of the of the the format. And I function of the of the the format. And I didn't expect this, but I came back to didn't expect this, but I came back to didn't expect this, but I came back to Oxford six years ago, just before the Oxford six years ago, just before the Oxford six years ago, just before the pandemic. And my duties here focus pandemic. And my duties here focus pandemic. And my duties here focus particularly on once a year doing a particularly on once a year doing a particularly on once a year doing a series of Bible expositions for Wickler series of Bible expositions for Wickler series of Bible expositions for Wickler Hall. But these Bible expositions, Hall. But these Bible expositions, Hall. But these Bible expositions, they've got to be half an hour because they've got to be half an hour because they've got to be half an hour because that fits into the pattern of the of the that fits into the pattern of the of the that fits into the pattern of the of the weekly worship that they have where that weekly worship that they have where that weekly worship that they have where that takes place. And so I the first two takes place. And so I the first two takes place. And so I the first two years I didn't um write them out. I I years I didn't um write them out. I I years I didn't um write them out. I I spoke from notes. And then I was a bit spoke from notes. And then I was a bit spoke from notes. And then I was a bit fed up with that. So the the third year fed up with that. So the the third year fed up with that. So the the third year when I did Romans 8, I thought I'm going when I did Romans 8, I thought I'm going when I did Romans 8, I thought I'm going to write this out because I want to be to write this out because I want to be to write this out because I want to be as clear as I can. And then I took it on as clear as I can. And then I took it on as clear as I can. And then I took it on the road and did an expanded version um the road and did an expanded version um the road and did an expanded version um to a group in Texas. And uh that really to a group in Texas. And uh that really to a group in Texas. And uh that really went like a rocket and it was very went like a rocket and it was very went like a rocket and it was very exciting. And so the publishers said, exciting. And so the publishers said, exciting. And so the publishers said, "Well, that looks like a little book."

"Well, that looks like a little book." "Well, that looks like a little book." And so so then I did it again the next And so so then I did it again the next And so so then I did it again the next year with Acts. I did it this last year year with Acts. I did it this last year year with Acts. I did it this last year with Ephesians. I've done it the present with Ephesians. I've done it the present with Ephesians. I've done it the present year with Isaiah 40 to 55, which God year with Isaiah 40 to 55, which God year with Isaiah 40 to 55, which God willing will be a little book coming out willing will be a little book coming out willing will be a little book coming out this time next year. Um, and this is this time next year. Um, and this is this time next year. Um, and this is like a sort of a retired man's new genre like a sort of a retired man's new genre like a sort of a retired man's new genre where for some reason I'm writing 150 where for some reason I'm writing 150 where for some reason I'm writing 150 page books, but they seem to work. page books, but they seem to work. page books, but they seem to work. >> They do work. They do work. [laughter] >> They do work. They do work. [laughter] >> They do work. They do work. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, >> so it's been it's been >> so it's been it's been >> so it's been it's been >> Well, I've got one more question for >> Well, I've got one more question for >> Well, I've got one more question for you. you. you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What What keeps you curious? The thing I >> What What keeps you curious? The thing I >> What What keeps you curious? The thing I love about you Yes. You're spending more love about you Yes. You're spending more love about you Yes. You're spending more time with family. You mentioned time with family. You mentioned time with family. You mentioned semi-retirement, but you are hardly semi-retirement, but you are hardly semi-retirement, but you are hardly somebody who's resting on his laurels. somebody who's resting on his laurels. somebody who's resting on his laurels. You're hardly someone whose main You're hardly someone whose main You're hardly someone whose main learnings are from a decade ago, 20 learnings are from a decade ago, 20 learnings are from a decade ago, 20 years ago. So, in your mid70s, what is years ago. So, in your mid70s, what is years ago. So, in your mid70s, what is keeping you curious, interested, keeping you curious, interested, keeping you curious, interested, engaged, leaning forward? engaged, leaning forward? engaged, leaning forward? I get kind of embarrassed about this I get kind of embarrassed about this I get kind of embarrassed about this because because because I really do think, and I'm saying this I really do think, and I'm saying this I really do think, and I'm saying this in the next new book, which is coming in the next new book, which is coming in the next new book, which is coming out in the spring, called God's out in the spring, called God's out in the spring, called God's Homecoming. That's a longer book, a Homecoming. That's a longer book, a Homecoming. That's a longer book, a sequel to Surprise by Hope. Um, I begin sequel to Surprise by Hope. Um, I begin sequel to Surprise by Hope. Um, I begin that book by saying something which that book by saying something which that book by saying something which makes me realize um, people are going to makes me realize um, people are going to makes me realize um, people are going to roll their eyes and shake their heads roll their eyes and shake their heads roll their eyes and shake their heads and think Tom Wright's really lost it and think Tom Wright's really lost it and think Tom Wright's really lost it this time. The beginning of the book this time. The beginning of the book this time. The beginning of the book says, "Most Western Christians think says, "Most Western Christians think says, "Most Western Christians think that the aim of Christianity is for my that the aim of Christianity is for my that the aim of Christianity is for my soul to go to heaven when I die. That's soul to go to heaven when I die. That's soul to go to heaven when I die. That's what most believers believe. It's what what most believers believe. It's what what most believers believe. It's what most unbelievers unbelieve." But they're most unbelievers unbelieve." But they're most unbelievers unbelieve." But they're all wrong. The whole point is not for my

all wrong. The whole point is not for my all wrong. The whole point is not for my soul to go to heaven, but for God's soul to go to heaven, but for God's soul to go to heaven, but for God's kingdom to come on earth, which is after kingdom to come on earth, which is after kingdom to come on earth, which is after all what Jesus told us to pray. Now, all what Jesus told us to pray. Now, all what Jesus told us to pray. Now, that sounds so simple, but of course, that sounds so simple, but of course, that sounds so simple, but of course, it's utterly revolutionary. And many, it's utterly revolutionary. And many, it's utterly revolutionary. And many, many, many preachers, good, wise, many, many preachers, good, wise, many, many preachers, good, wise, careful, prayerful preachers down the careful, prayerful preachers down the careful, prayerful preachers down the years have focused the whole thing on years have focused the whole thing on years have focused the whole thing on how my soul gets to heaven and do I have how my soul gets to heaven and do I have how my soul gets to heaven and do I have to go to purgatory on route and all that to go to purgatory on route and all that to go to purgatory on route and all that stuff. Um, and really that's not the stuff. Um, and really that's not the stuff. Um, and really that's not the point. Um, but if you say it the New point. Um, but if you say it the New point. Um, but if you say it the New Testament way, then the gospels make Testament way, then the gospels make Testament way, then the gospels make sense that they don't make any other sense that they don't make any other sense that they don't make any other way. And you get a whole different way. And you get a whole different way. And you get a whole different impetus towards ecclesiology, towards impetus towards ecclesiology, towards impetus towards ecclesiology, towards the work of the church in the public the work of the church in the public the work of the church in the public square, towards issues of life and death square, towards issues of life and death square, towards issues of life and death and what happens after death. Um, and so and what happens after death. Um, and so and what happens after death. Um, and so I follow that through. But really, so I follow that through. But really, so I follow that through. But really, so now when I'm invited to speak to now when I'm invited to speak to now when I'm invited to speak to different Christian groups, um, often I different Christian groups, um, often I different Christian groups, um, often I think what they want me to do is to take think what they want me to do is to take think what they want me to do is to take the framework they're already very happy the framework they're already very happy the framework they're already very happy with and to adjust a few nuts and bolts with and to adjust a few nuts and bolts with and to adjust a few nuts and bolts around the edge as sort of decoration.

around the edge as sort of decoration. around the edge as sort of decoration. And actually don't want to do that. I And actually don't want to do that. I And actually don't want to do that. I want to say guys, we've all been getting want to say guys, we've all been getting want to say guys, we've all been getting it wrong and I'm sorry that may sound it wrong and I'm sorry that may sound it wrong and I'm sorry that may sound horribly arrogant, but let's do what horribly arrogant, but let's do what horribly arrogant, but let's do what according to Acts the Christians in according to Acts the Christians in according to Acts the Christians in Berea did or the Jews in Berea did, Berea did or the Jews in Berea did, Berea did or the Jews in Berea did, which is to search the scriptures and which is to search the scriptures and which is to search the scriptures and see whether these things are so. So see whether these things are so. So see whether these things are so. So that's the invitation of the new book. that's the invitation of the new book. that's the invitation of the new book. But I I just think once that book's come But I I just think once that book's come But I I just think once that book's come out, then I better escape off to the far out, then I better escape off to the far out, then I better escape off to the far north of Scotland and stay out of the north of Scotland and stay out of the north of Scotland and stay out of the [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> stay out of the line of fire and >> stay out of the line of fire and >> stay out of the line of fire and offline. Well, you've hinted at that in offline. Well, you've hinted at that in offline. Well, you've hinted at that in your work over the years that that has your work over the years that that has your work over the years that that has been a consistent life message. been a consistent life message. been a consistent life message. >> It's more and more explicit the more I >> It's more and more explicit the more I >> It's more and more explicit the more I get on. get on. get on. >> Well, there you go. There you go. Well, >> Well, there you go. There you go. Well, >> Well, there you go. There you go. Well, I got to say, Tom, this has been an I got to say, Tom, this has been an I got to say, Tom, this has been an absolute delight. Thank you for absolute delight. Thank you for absolute delight. Thank you for >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> being so transparent about your life, >> being so transparent about your life, >> being so transparent about your life, about taking us way back and thinking about taking us way back and thinking about taking us way back and thinking about the young entright and uh I mean, about the young entright and uh I mean, about the young entright and uh I mean, my goodness uh you've written more books my goodness uh you've written more books my goodness uh you've written more books than many of us have read. Uh the latest than many of us have read. Uh the latest than many of us have read. Uh the latest is called The Vision of Ephesians. You is called The Vision of Ephesians. You is called The Vision of Ephesians. You have ones coming out every year, so have ones coming out every year, so have ones coming out every year, so we'll link to everything in the show we'll link to everything in the show we'll link to everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for being on notes. Thank you so much for being on notes. Thank you so much for being on with us today. It's with us today. It's with us today. It's >> very good to be with you and God bless >> very good to be with you and God bless >> very good to be with you and God bless you to all the people watching, you to all the people watching, you to all the people watching, listening. Thank you.