The Real Reasons Women are Done With Church | Christine Caine

Apparently, Apparently, they didn't have the Billy Graham rule they didn't have the Billy Graham rule they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling because Jesus was a single man traveling because Jesus was a single man traveling and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, that was she's obviously a married woman that was she's obviously a married woman that was she's obviously a married woman with means that traveled as part of his with means that traveled as part of his with means that traveled as part of his preaching team, that funded his ministry preaching team, that funded his ministry preaching team, that funded his ministry out of her own means along with many out of her own means along with many out of her own means along with many other women the scripture says in Luke other women the scripture says in Luke other women the scripture says in Luke 8:3. So, I'm saying they were obviously 8:3. So, I'm saying they were obviously 8:3. So, I'm saying they were obviously successful, uh financially independent, successful, uh financially independent, successful, uh financially independent, women of generosity that funded it the women of generosity that funded it the women of generosity that funded it the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So, mission of Jesus as he traveled. So, mission of Jesus as he traveled. So, there is room for all of them. Welcome there is room for all of them. Welcome there is room for all of them. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Hey, today Christine Caine is Podcast. Hey, today Christine Caine is Podcast. Hey, today Christine Caine is on the pod and my goodness, we end up on the pod and my goodness, we end up on the pod and my goodness, we end up talking about all these things talking about all these things talking about all these things that we weren't planning on talking that we weren't planning on talking that we weren't planning on talking about including why women are leaving about including why women are leaving about including why women are leaving the church, why you shouldn't do the job the church, why you shouldn't do the job the church, why you shouldn't do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's of the Holy Spirit in other people's of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives. That was powerful. It's a lives. That was powerful. It's a lives. That was powerful. It's a commentary on cancel culture and kind of commentary on cancel culture and kind of commentary on cancel culture and kind of the frail moment we're in right now as a the frail moment we're in right now as a the frail moment we're in right now as a culture where we don't tolerate culture where we don't tolerate culture where we don't tolerate anything. We talk about the limits of anything. We talk about the limits of anything. We talk about the limits of therapy and why pruning is the key to therapy and why pruning is the key to therapy and why pruning is the key to flourishing. She turns 60 this year. I flourishing. She turns 60 this year. I flourishing. She turns 60 this year. I can say that cuz she talks all about it.

can say that cuz she talks all about it. can say that cuz she talks all about it. What do you need to do at this point in What do you need to do at this point in What do you need to do at this point in life to be life to be life to be flourishing? flourishing? flourishing? So, we talk about all of that. Hey, if So, we talk about all of that. Hey, if So, we talk about all of that. Hey, if you're new to this podcast, welcome and you're new to this podcast, welcome and you're new to this podcast, welcome and if you're a regular listener, uh if you're a regular listener, uh if you're a regular listener, uh Christine and I were talking before we Christine and I were talking before we Christine and I were talking before we hit record about all the next gen hit record about all the next gen hit record about all the next gen leaders that watch and follow this leaders that watch and follow this leaders that watch and follow this podcast. We're really glad that you're podcast. We're really glad that you're podcast. We're really glad that you're here and if you haven't yet hit the here and if you haven't yet hit the here and if you haven't yet hit the follow button or subscribe button follow button or subscribe button follow button or subscribe button wherever you're watching or listening. wherever you're watching or listening. wherever you're watching or listening. It would be a lot to me. It would mean a It would be a lot to me. It would mean a It would be a lot to me. It would mean a lot to me if you would do that. So, I lot to me if you would do that. So, I lot to me if you would do that. So, I would love to have you do that. would love to have you do that. would love to have you do that. Christine Caine is a speaker and Christine Caine is a speaker and Christine Caine is a speaker and activist, best-selling author who activist, best-selling author who activist, best-selling author who awakens people globally to discover awakens people globally to discover awakens people globally to discover their God-given purpose for Jesus. their God-given purpose for Jesus. their God-given purpose for Jesus. Christine and her husband Nick founded Christine and her husband Nick founded Christine and her husband Nick founded A21, a global anti-human trafficking A21, a global anti-human trafficking A21, a global anti-human trafficking organization. She also founded Propel organization. She also founded Propel organization. She also founded Propel Women, an initiative that activates Women, an initiative that activates Women, an initiative that activates women to follow Jesus wholeheartedly and women to follow Jesus wholeheartedly and women to follow Jesus wholeheartedly and live out their God-given purpose. And live out their God-given purpose. And live out their God-given purpose. And now to my conversation with Christine now to my conversation with Christine now to my conversation with Christine Caine. Chris, I've been really looking Caine. Chris, I've been really looking Caine. Chris, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome forward to this conversation. Welcome forward to this conversation. Welcome back. Hi Terry, it is my honor. I'm kind back. Hi Terry, it is my honor. I'm kind back. Hi Terry, it is my honor. I'm kind of laughing because I think we had the of laughing because I think we had the of laughing because I think we had the conversation before the conversation.

conversation before the conversation. conversation before the conversation. >> Yeah, we did. We were talking about like >> Yeah, we did. We were talking about like >> Yeah, we did. We were talking about like you've got a milestone year. I had mine you've got a milestone year. I had mine you've got a milestone year. I had mine last year. So I never ask a woman her last year. So I never ask a woman her last year. So I never ask a woman her age, but you've been pretty public about age, but you've been pretty public about age, but you've been pretty public about it. it. it. Uh the big six out. You know I'm Uh the big six out. You know I'm Uh the big six out. You know I'm celebrating um all year cuz I'm like you celebrating um all year cuz I'm like you celebrating um all year cuz I'm like you don't get to 60 and just celebrate one don't get to 60 and just celebrate one don't get to 60 and just celebrate one day. I'm having all 365 days are day. I'm having all 365 days are day. I'm having all 365 days are committed to my 60th. committed to my 60th. committed to my 60th. Good for you. Good for you. So this is Good for you. Good for you. So this is Good for you. Good for you. So this is not like this big foreboding thing for not like this big foreboding thing for not like this big foreboding thing for you, is it? you, is it? you, is it? >> Oh, quite the contrary. I mean you know >> Oh, quite the contrary. I mean you know >> Oh, quite the contrary. I mean you know it's it's so fascinating to me how sort it's it's so fascinating to me how sort it's it's so fascinating to me how sort of historically and and really women of historically and and really women of historically and and really women feel really weird about their age. I'm feel really weird about their age. I'm feel really weird about their age. I'm like you're I mean I could be dead, but like you're I mean I could be dead, but like you're I mean I could be dead, but I'm 60. I'm 60. I'm 60. I'm I'm 60 and by God's grace I I feel I'm I'm 60 and by God's grace I I feel I'm I'm 60 and by God's grace I I feel you know healthy and strong and um I'm you know healthy and strong and um I'm you know healthy and strong and um I'm doing 60 things that I've never done doing 60 things that I've never done doing 60 things that I've never done before for my 60th year. Um that could before for my 60th year. Um that could before for my 60th year. Um that could be anything like you know last week I be anything like you know last week I be anything like you know last week I went to Alaska to see the northern went to Alaska to see the northern went to Alaska to see the northern lights and slept in a igloo, but also I lights and slept in a igloo, but also I lights and slept in a igloo, but also I ate Whataburger for the first time ate Whataburger for the first time ate Whataburger for the first time instead of like In-N-Out. instead of like In-N-Out. instead of like In-N-Out. >> Actually, that's pretty epic, isn't it?

>> Actually, that's pretty epic, isn't it? >> Actually, that's pretty epic, isn't it? Whataburger? That's it. So in my life Whataburger? That's it. So in my life Whataburger? That's it. So in my life it's going to be like um 60 It could be it's going to be like um 60 It could be it's going to be like um 60 It could be just ordering something I've never just ordering something I've never just ordering something I've never ordered, you know, going somewhere I've ordered, you know, going somewhere I've ordered, you know, going somewhere I've never gone. But never gone. But never gone. But uh you know, cuz a lot of people tend to uh you know, cuz a lot of people tend to uh you know, cuz a lot of people tend to get to our age and get into this rut and get to our age and get into this rut and get to our age and get into this rut and I'm like no, no, no. I'm like very I'm like no, no, no. I'm like very I'm like no, no, no. I'm like very willfully willfully willfully uh choosing to do 60 things I've never uh choosing to do 60 things I've never uh choosing to do 60 things I've never done before. Like it's Good for you. I done before. Like it's Good for you. I done before. Like it's Good for you. I think John Maxwell, I hope to have him think John Maxwell, I hope to have him think John Maxwell, I hope to have him back on the show this year. He's got a back on the show this year. He's got a back on the show this year. He's got a similar birthday routine where he does similar birthday routine where he does similar birthday routine where he does like really exciting things for his like really exciting things for his like really exciting things for his birthday. Good for him. birthday. Good for him. birthday. Good for him. Good for you. You know what? And they Good for you. You know what? And they Good for you. You know what? And they say 60's a new 40 or at least they told say 60's a new 40 or at least they told say 60's a new 40 or at least they told me that to make me feel better. I don't me that to make me feel better. I don't me that to make me feel better. I don't know. 60's a new 40. know. 60's a new 40. know. 60's a new 40. >> make us feel better, mate. Like who >> make us feel better, mate. Like who >> make us feel better, mate. Like who wants to 40 again? I want I just think wants to 40 again? I want I just think wants to 40 again? I want I just think 60 is the 60. Yeah, but there is greater 60 is the 60. Yeah, but there is greater 60 is the 60. Yeah, but there is greater health. Like, we have greater lifespan health. Like, we have greater lifespan health. Like, we have greater lifespan and greater health span now. So, I and greater health span now. So, I and greater health span now. So, I think, you know, I think back to my think, you know, I think back to my think, you know, I think back to my childhood. I think I've said this childhood. I think I've said this childhood. I think I've said this before, but I look at some of the before, but I look at some of the before, but I look at some of the pictures and I realize, oh, those people pictures and I realize, oh, those people pictures and I realize, oh, those people growing up in my church with white hair growing up in my church with white hair growing up in my church with white hair and walkers were in their 50s and 60s. and walkers were in their 50s and 60s. and walkers were in their 50s and 60s. And yeah, it's just changed. Life life And yeah, it's just changed. Life life And yeah, it's just changed. Life life for some of us, you know, if you live in for some of us, you know, if you live in for some of us, you know, if you live in particular zip codes or countries has particular zip codes or countries has particular zip codes or countries has gone better than elsewhere. But, you gone better than elsewhere. But, you gone better than elsewhere. But, you know, you and I were talking and this know, you and I were talking and this know, you and I were talking and this was the the the conversation before the was the the the conversation before the was the the the conversation before the conversation.

conversation. conversation. You were saying, "What are you doing You were saying, "What are you doing You were saying, "What are you doing about women leaving the church?" Cuz about women leaving the church?" Cuz about women leaving the church?" Cuz then, thank you for listening to the then, thank you for listening to the then, thank you for listening to the podcast. I I am blown away by who podcast. I I am blown away by who podcast. I I am blown away by who listens to this. listens to this. listens to this. >> Of course you do. And >> Of course you do. And >> Of course you do. And you said, "I would love to give my you said, "I would love to give my you said, "I would love to give my theories about what's going on." And we theories about what's going on." And we theories about what's going on." And we also talked about a missing generation, also talked about a missing generation, also talked about a missing generation, or you talked about a missing or you talked about a missing or you talked about a missing generation. So, generation. So, generation. So, uh I'm just going to stop talking and uh I'm just going to stop talking and uh I'm just going to stop talking and let you comment on it. let you comment on it. let you comment on it. >> Well, no. You know, I mean, obviously, >> Well, no. You know, I mean, obviously, >> Well, no. You know, I mean, obviously, I've been involved uh it with women's I've been involved uh it with women's I've been involved uh it with women's ministry of sorts, anything from even ministry of sorts, anything from even ministry of sorts, anything from even when I was with young people, young when I was with young people, young when I was with young people, young women, when I was a youth pastor and women, when I was a youth pastor and women, when I was a youth pastor and youth leader, and then all the way youth leader, and then all the way youth leader, and then all the way through what I do with Propel now. So, through what I do with Propel now. So, through what I do with Propel now. So, we are really looking at the data at we are really looking at the data at we are really looking at the data at Propel. So, I'm looking at uh the the Propel. So, I'm looking at uh the the Propel. So, I'm looking at uh the the demographic of like the Gen Z girls, you demographic of like the Gen Z girls, you demographic of like the Gen Z girls, you know, of course, we've got all the young know, of course, we've got all the young know, of course, we've got all the young men coming back to church. And you know, men coming back to church. And you know, men coming back to church. And you know, then, where are the women? Um lots of then, where are the women? Um lots of then, where are the women? Um lots of theories about that. But, also the thing theories about that. But, also the thing theories about that. But, also the thing that uh I don't think that we need to that uh I don't think that we need to that uh I don't think that we need to skip over in the data is that there's skip over in the data is that there's skip over in the data is that there's women my age, too, that um are really women my age, too, that um are really women my age, too, that um are really leaving the church. What's happening is leaving the church. What's happening is leaving the church. What's happening is they're becoming empty nesters, uh and they're becoming empty nesters, uh and they're becoming empty nesters, uh and maybe younger than me. And maybe they maybe younger than me. And maybe they maybe younger than me. And maybe they were like, "I'm in it. Got my kids were like, "I'm in it. Got my kids were like, "I'm in it. Got my kids through, launched my kids. Now, what is through, launched my kids. Now, what is through, launched my kids. Now, what is there for me to do?" And the issue is, there for me to do?" And the issue is, there for me to do?" And the issue is, if there is nothing for them to do, if there is nothing for them to do, if there is nothing for them to do, uh they're like, uh they're like, uh they're like, me and Jesus are okay. I can read the me and Jesus are okay. I can read the me and Jesus are okay. I can read the Bible for myself. I've done enough Bible Bible for myself. I've done enough Bible Bible for myself. I've done enough Bible studies. Um, why do I really need to be studies. Um, why do I really need to be studies. Um, why do I really need to be this a part of me um, being 60, writing,

this a part of me um, being 60, writing, this a part of me um, being 60, writing, flourishing. Yes, always I will write flourishing. Yes, always I will write flourishing. Yes, always I will write for the young people, but it's also for for the young people, but it's also for for the young people, but it's also for my generation to go, oh, Mhm. you're not my generation to go, oh, Mhm. you're not my generation to go, oh, Mhm. you're not supposed to tap out at this point. It's supposed to tap out at this point. It's supposed to tap out at this point. It's not like, well, I've done it really well not like, well, I've done it really well not like, well, I've done it really well for 40 years. I've been at church. I for 40 years. I've been at church. I for 40 years. I've been at church. I raised my kids. Now I deserve, whatever raised my kids. Now I deserve, whatever raised my kids. Now I deserve, whatever that means, um, you know, whatever, to that means, um, you know, whatever, to that means, um, you know, whatever, to go sit on the lake, look at a tree, uh, go sit on the lake, look at a tree, uh, go sit on the lake, look at a tree, uh, you know, but I'm going, yes, you could you know, but I'm going, yes, you could you know, but I'm going, yes, you could do all those things, but actually the do all those things, but actually the do all those things, but actually the mandate from scripture is that we're mandate from scripture is that we're mandate from scripture is that we're supposed to run our race and finish our supposed to run our race and finish our supposed to run our race and finish our course. This is not the time for us to course. This is not the time for us to course. This is not the time for us to be being sort of selfish and tapping out be being sort of selfish and tapping out be being sort of selfish and tapping out because we have a generation that so because we have a generation that so because we have a generation that so desperately needs us and needs us to desperately needs us and needs us to desperately needs us and needs us to finish well and needs us to finish finish well and needs us to finish finish well and needs us to finish strong, you know, in in this last strong, you know, in in this last strong, you know, in in this last five-year period, many of the people five-year period, many of the people five-year period, many of the people that I personally know that have not that I personally know that have not that I personally know that have not finished their race well were older than finished their race well were older than finished their race well were older than me. So, this is not the time for me to me. So, this is not the time for me to me. So, this is not the time for me to take my foot off the brake and go, oh, I take my foot off the brake and go, oh, I take my foot off the brake and go, oh, I can just tap out and do whatever I want. can just tap out and do whatever I want. can just tap out and do whatever I want. I I haven't come this far to only come I I haven't come this far to only come I I haven't come this far to only come this far. I want to run my race and this far. I want to run my race and this far. I want to run my race and finish my course. And then, of course, finish my course. And then, of course, finish my course. And then, of course, there's a generation sort of under me, there's a generation sort of under me, there's a generation sort of under me, um, a lot of the some of the millennial um, a lot of the some of the millennial um, a lot of the some of the millennial generation that maybe in their late 30s, generation that maybe in their late 30s, generation that maybe in their late 30s, in their 40s, that either, you know, for in their 40s, that either, you know, for in their 40s, that either, you know, for whatever reason and through whatever reason and through whatever reason and through disappointment and disillusionment or disappointment and disillusionment or disappointment and disillusionment or just tapping out, um, have either just tapping out, um, have either just tapping out, um, have either deconverted, deconstructed, I mean, use deconverted, deconstructed, I mean, use deconverted, deconstructed, I mean, use whatever word. So, suddenly I was whatever word. So, suddenly I was whatever word. So, suddenly I was thinking this in light of my daughters, thinking this in light of my daughters, thinking this in light of my daughters, who are 20 and 24, who are 20 and 24, who are 20 and 24, uh, when I was 40 and I was a youth uh, when I was 40 and I was a youth uh, when I was 40 and I was a youth leader and running a youth movement, I leader and running a youth movement, I leader and running a youth movement, I was that role model for a lot of the

was that role model for a lot of the was that role model for a lot of the 20-year-olds, you know, that's that was 20-year-olds, you know, that's that was 20-year-olds, you know, that's that was my role in youth ministry. my role in youth ministry. my role in youth ministry. But now there's like this major gap. And But now there's like this major gap. And But now there's like this major gap. And there's this major gap where my girls there's this major gap where my girls there's this major gap where my girls are like, Mom, who do I look to in that are like, Mom, who do I look to in that are like, Mom, who do I look to in that age group? age group? age group? >> 40, 45 that I can look up to as a >> 40, 45 that I can look up to as a >> 40, 45 that I can look up to as a mentor? mentor? mentor? >> influences in their 20s, but I mean, >> influences in their 20s, but I mean, >> influences in their 20s, but I mean, where are the 40 to 45, you know, 38 to where are the 40 to 45, you know, 38 to where are the 40 to 45, you know, 38 to 45, 50 going, "This is how you pursue 45, 50 going, "This is how you pursue 45, 50 going, "This is how you pursue Jesus. This is what you're serving in Jesus. This is what you're serving in Jesus. This is what you're serving in church." Now, I'm not saying they're not church." Now, I'm not saying they're not church." Now, I'm not saying they're not there, of course, but I am going there, of course, but I am going there, of course, but I am going >> There's a Yeah. There's a gap. There's a >> There's a Yeah. There's a gap. There's a >> There's a Yeah. There's a gap. There's a There's a void. And um I think I can There's a void. And um I think I can There's a void. And um I think I can tell, you know, I mean, Carrie, I spoke tell, you know, I mean, Carrie, I spoke tell, you know, I mean, Carrie, I spoke at Passion just a few weeks ago. And so, at Passion just a few weeks ago. And so, at Passion just a few weeks ago. And so, you know, you've got tens of thousands you know, you've got tens of thousands you know, you've got tens of thousands of young people that still listen to me. of young people that still listen to me. of young people that still listen to me. Like, that doesn't make any natural Like, that doesn't make any natural Like, that doesn't make any natural sense. I'm not cool. I have like no sense. I'm not cool. I have like no sense. I'm not cool. I have like no tattoos. I can't sing. You know, I've tattoos. I can't sing. You know, I've tattoos. I can't sing. You know, I've got like I would never win, you know, got like I would never win, you know, got like I would never win, you know, America's Got Talent or The Voice. I've America's Got Talent or The Voice. I've America's Got Talent or The Voice. I've got nothing going for me but Jesus. got nothing going for me but Jesus. got nothing going for me but Jesus. Like, so that's it. But what I think Like, so that's it. But what I think Like, so that's it. But what I think they've seen maybe is someone that's they've seen maybe is someone that's they've seen maybe is someone that's walked with the Lord for 40 years and walked with the Lord for 40 years and walked with the Lord for 40 years and certainly not perfectly has, you know, certainly not perfectly has, you know, certainly not perfectly has, you know, um but I've always shared my story um but I've always shared my story um but I've always shared my story openly. But I think they're looking, are openly. But I think they're looking, are openly. But I think they're looking, are there women that are going to finish there women that are going to finish there women that are going to finish their course still passionately in love their course still passionately in love their course still passionately in love with Jesus, still in it, like still in with Jesus, still in it, like still in with Jesus, still in it, like still in this adventure, this adventure, this adventure, um and saying to them there is a better um and saying to them there is a better um and saying to them there is a better way. There way. There way. There This is the Jesus is the way, the truth, This is the Jesus is the way, the truth, This is the Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And um and the life. And um and the life. And um and you can do this to the end. So, I and you can do this to the end. So, I and you can do this to the end. So, I kind of am really nutting through a lot kind of am really nutting through a lot kind of am really nutting through a lot of that. I've been listening to some of

of that. I've been listening to some of of that. I've been listening to some of the things you've been saying about uh the things you've been saying about uh the things you've been saying about uh which is all true, you know, younger which is all true, you know, younger which is all true, you know, younger women have opportunities in the women have opportunities in the women have opportunities in the marketplace. Where are those marketplace. Where are those marketplace. Where are those opportunities in church? And opportunities in church? And opportunities in church? And um um um I think with Propel we're really looking I think with Propel we're really looking I think with Propel we're really looking at those questions, too, and saying, you at those questions, too, and saying, you at those questions, too, and saying, you know, whether you are from a know, whether you are from a know, whether you are from a complementarian background or an complementarian background or an complementarian background or an egalitarian background, that to me is egalitarian background, that to me is egalitarian background, that to me is not the conversation. Um because I think not the conversation. Um because I think not the conversation. Um because I think women can fulfill their purpose within women can fulfill their purpose within women can fulfill their purpose within the context the context the context >> Women are on both sides of the church. >> Women are on both sides of the church. >> Women are on both sides of the church. It's not just men. And I serve all women It's not just men. And I serve all women It's not just men. And I serve all women on on all sides of that. And church on on on all sides of that. And church on on on all sides of that. And church on all sides of that. all sides of that. all sides of that. >> So, I think uh the issue has more to do >> So, I think uh the issue has more to do >> So, I think uh the issue has more to do with purpose more than job title. And with purpose more than job title. And with purpose more than job title. And so, I think for me, the bigger so, I think for me, the bigger so, I think for me, the bigger conversation has got to be around can conversation has got to be around can conversation has got to be around can a is are we encouraging women to fulfill a is are we encouraging women to fulfill a is are we encouraging women to fulfill their God-given purpose and are our their God-given purpose and are our their God-given purpose and are our churches having those conversations churches having those conversations churches having those conversations that are enabling our women? Because I that are enabling our women? Because I that are enabling our women? Because I think whichever side of the egalitarian think whichever side of the egalitarian think whichever side of the egalitarian complementarian sort of line you're on, complementarian sort of line you're on, complementarian sort of line you're on, within both context, women can fulfill within both context, women can fulfill within both context, women can fulfill their purpose. And I so I I think we've their purpose. And I so I I think we've their purpose. And I so I I think we've made the conversation a little bit too made the conversation a little bit too made the conversation a little bit too much about title and position rather much about title and position rather much about title and position rather than purpose. And you know, I work as than purpose. And you know, I work as than purpose. And you know, I work as you know, Nick and I travel the world you know, Nick and I travel the world you know, Nick and I travel the world with A21. We've planted churches all with A21. We've planted churches all with A21. We've planted churches all over the world. So in many countries over the world. So in many countries over the world. So in many countries that I work in, women will never, not in that I work in, women will never, not in that I work in, women will never, not in my lifetime, be in any kind of my lifetime, be in any kind of my lifetime, be in any kind of egalitarian context. Does that mean they egalitarian context. Does that mean they egalitarian context. Does that mean they can't serve God? Does that mean they can't serve God? Does that mean they can't serve God? Does that mean they can't fulfill God? I think of countries, can't fulfill God? I think of countries, can't fulfill God? I think of countries, you know, where there's the persecuted you know, where there's the persecuted you know, where there's the persecuted church, countries where women certainly church, countries where women certainly church, countries where women certainly are not afforded the same opportunities are not afforded the same opportunities are not afforded the same opportunities that we have here in America and in a

that we have here in America and in a that we have here in America and in a lot of the West. So how do those women? lot of the West. So how do those women? lot of the West. So how do those women? Is the gospel still true for them? How Is the gospel still true for them? How Is the gospel still true for them? How do they fulfill? What difference can do they fulfill? What difference can do they fulfill? What difference can Jesus make for them? How can we help Jesus make for them? How can we help Jesus make for them? How can we help churches in those contexts churches in those contexts churches in those contexts help their women fulfill their God-given help their women fulfill their God-given help their women fulfill their God-given purpose? So I think we can bring some of purpose? So I think we can bring some of purpose? So I think we can bring some of that. I've had lots of roundtables where that. I've had lots of roundtables where that. I've had lots of roundtables where we've brought in women from Africa and we've brought in women from Africa and we've brought in women from Africa and Asia and South America and I've had Asia and South America and I've had Asia and South America and I've had those women talk to those women talk to those women talk to American women and Western women and American women and Western women and American women and Western women and women that are in the Western context women that are in the Western context women that are in the Western context and say, "Okay, I think maybe we should and say, "Okay, I think maybe we should and say, "Okay, I think maybe we should actually think about the conversation actually think about the conversation actually think about the conversation we're having, the kind of questions that we're having, the kind of questions that we're having, the kind of questions that we're asking cuz even some of the things we're asking cuz even some of the things we're asking cuz even some of the things we're talking about only really we're talking about only really we're talking about only really pertain to women that are of a social of pertain to women that are of a social of pertain to women that are of a social of a certain socioeconomic demographic that a certain socioeconomic demographic that a certain socioeconomic demographic that are in a particular culture are in a particular culture are in a particular culture and that have certain rights, legal and that have certain rights, legal and that have certain rights, legal rights, opportunities. Well, the gospel rights, opportunities. Well, the gospel rights, opportunities. Well, the gospel is for all people everywhere. So we've is for all people everywhere. So we've is for all people everywhere. So we've got to actually even enlarge the got to actually even enlarge the got to actually even enlarge the conversation we're having about women conversation we're having about women conversation we're having about women to not only be about North American to not only be about North American to not only be about North American women in an evangelical context cuz that women in an evangelical context cuz that women in an evangelical context cuz that probably maybe represents what less than probably maybe represents what less than probably maybe represents what less than 5% of the global church. So, I think we 5% of the global church. So, I think we 5% of the global church. So, I think we need to have Which we often forget.

need to have Which we often forget. need to have Which we often forget. There's a lot more women that are, you There's a lot more women that are, you There's a lot more women that are, you know, global So, I'm always looking at know, global So, I'm always looking at know, global So, I'm always looking at this through the lens of the global this through the lens of the global this through the lens of the global church. Um church. Um church. Um and of course everyone knows that I'm and of course everyone knows that I'm and of course everyone knows that I'm all about moving the ball down the all about moving the ball down the all about moving the ball down the field. Um you know, you know, whether field. Um you know, you know, whether field. Um you know, you know, whether the work that we've been able to do with the work that we've been able to do with the work that we've been able to do with A21 and rescuing the victims of human A21 and rescuing the victims of human A21 and rescuing the victims of human trafficking or I'm a teaching pastor at trafficking or I'm a teaching pastor at trafficking or I'm a teaching pastor at Mariners Church in Orange County with Mariners Church in Orange County with Mariners Church in Orange County with Pastor Eric Geiger. Pastor Eric Geiger. Pastor Eric Geiger. And then also obviously I preach and And then also obviously I preach and And then also obviously I preach and teach around the world. So, you know, I teach around the world. So, you know, I teach around the world. So, you know, I I I I think you can fulfill your your think you can fulfill your your think you can fulfill your your God-given purpose uh in those contexts, God-given purpose uh in those contexts, God-given purpose uh in those contexts, but we've got to make sure we're asking but we've got to make sure we're asking but we've got to make sure we're asking the right questions cuz it's not just a the right questions cuz it's not just a the right questions cuz it's not just a simple well, if we just give everyone simple well, if we just give everyone simple well, if we just give everyone positions and titles, they'll stay in positions and titles, they'll stay in positions and titles, they'll stay in church cuz I'm like there's a lot of church cuz I'm like there's a lot of church cuz I'm like there's a lot of countries where that's not even an countries where that's not even an countries where that's not even an option. option. option. And there's a lot of denominations that And there's a lot of denominations that And there's a lot of denominations that that's not an option. So, does that mean that's not an option. So, does that mean that's not an option. So, does that mean a woman a woman can't serve? a woman a woman can't serve? a woman a woman can't serve? You know, one of the things that Barna You know, one of the things that Barna You know, one of the things that Barna data shows, David Kinnaman talked about data shows, David Kinnaman talked about data shows, David Kinnaman talked about this in a previous episode, but it was this in a previous episode, but it was this in a previous episode, but it was um women are exiting and they're exiting um women are exiting and they're exiting um women are exiting and they're exiting across all demographics from Gen Z right across all demographics from Gen Z right across all demographics from Gen Z right through to boomers. Boomers are not through to boomers. Boomers are not through to boomers. Boomers are not coming back to church after COVID and, coming back to church after COVID and, coming back to church after COVID and, you know, I think the way David phrased you know, I think the way David phrased you know, I think the way David phrased it is they've retired from work and it is they've retired from work and it is they've retired from work and they're retiring from church.

they're retiring from church. they're retiring from church. And then women volunteerism is also And then women volunteerism is also And then women volunteerism is also down. Yeah. And so, I guess one of the down. Yeah. And so, I guess one of the down. Yeah. And so, I guess one of the questions is do you think this is a questions is do you think this is a questions is do you think this is a little bit, I haven't asked this on the little bit, I haven't asked this on the little bit, I haven't asked this on the podcast before, but I'm just curious and podcast before, but I'm just curious and podcast before, but I'm just curious and if you don't think it is, that's fine. if you don't think it is, that's fine. if you don't think it is, that's fine. But do you think this is consumer But do you think this is consumer But do you think this is consumer Christianity coming home to roost? It's Christianity coming home to roost? It's Christianity coming home to roost? It's like what's in it for me rather than like what's in it for me rather than like what's in it for me rather than what do I bring I think to a degree and what do I bring I think to a degree and what do I bring I think to a degree and I again, you know, you and I need to I again, you know, you and I need to I again, you know, you and I need to have 10 conversations because I think have 10 conversations because I think have 10 conversations because I think that conversation can be had on all that conversation can be had on all that conversation can be had on all fronts. That I I you know, I listen to fronts. That I I you know, I listen to fronts. That I I you know, I listen to multiple podcasts and I obviously talk multiple podcasts and I obviously talk multiple podcasts and I obviously talk to people all the time and it's so funny to people all the time and it's so funny to people all the time and it's so funny the conversations here and again I'm the conversations here and again I'm the conversations here and again I'm talking in a North American context. talking in a North American context. talking in a North American context. It's um It's um It's um a lot more of what's in it for me. Now, a lot more of what's in it for me. Now, a lot more of what's in it for me. Now, in a lot of other contexts that I serve in a lot of other contexts that I serve in a lot of other contexts that I serve in around the world, that wouldn't even in around the world, that wouldn't even in around the world, that wouldn't even be an option because really there's be an option because really there's be an option because really there's nothing in it for you. nothing in it for you. nothing in it for you. So so that's the given. The given is So so that's the given. The given is So so that's the given. The given is that you're entering and there's nothing that you're entering and there's nothing that you're entering and there's nothing in it for you. It's about what you could in it for you. It's about what you could in it for you. It's about what you could do and I was listening to a particular do and I was listening to a particular do and I was listening to a particular conversation last night and it was all conversation last night and it was all conversation last night and it was all well, you know, well, you know, well, you know, um it serving at church or doing this, it serving at church or doing this, what's really in it for me or my gifts what's really in it for me or my gifts what's really in it for me or my gifts or my talents. Now, there is a degree of or my talents. Now, there is a degree of or my talents. Now, there is a degree of truth truth truth to all of that. Absolutely. God's given to all of that. Absolutely. God's given to all of that. Absolutely. God's given us gifts. Scripture is full of that uh us gifts. Scripture is full of that uh us gifts. Scripture is full of that uh to serve his body for the building up of to serve his body for the building up of to serve his body for the building up of the body. But when it becomes all about the body. But when it becomes all about the body. But when it becomes all about my gift, my talent. Now, there's a fine my gift, my talent. Now, there's a fine my gift, my talent. Now, there's a fine line that crosses um that becomes it's line that crosses um that becomes it's line that crosses um that becomes it's not about serving the church anymore. It not about serving the church anymore. It not about serving the church anymore. It becomes about my gift being maximized or

becomes about my gift being maximized or becomes about my gift being maximized or Yes, me expressing myself. Yes, me expressing myself. Yes, me expressing myself. >> That's the thing and I think that's the >> That's the thing and I think that's the >> That's the thing and I think that's the the bigger conversation that even when the bigger conversation that even when the bigger conversation that even when we're talking about influencer culture we're talking about influencer culture we're talking about influencer culture and I I love the conversation you had and I I love the conversation you had and I I love the conversation you had with the two young Gen Z guys the other with the two young Gen Z guys the other with the two young Gen Z guys the other day and Oh, Luke LeFevre and Daniel day and Oh, Luke LeFevre and Daniel day and Oh, Luke LeFevre and Daniel McLellan. McLellan. McLellan. >> up and there was some great >> up and there was some great >> up and there was some great conversations the other week about um conversations the other week about um conversations the other week about um you know, well then how do churches you know, well then how do churches you know, well then how do churches utilize those gifts? And there's two utilize those gifts? And there's two utilize those gifts? And there's two sides to that as well because the other sides to that as well because the other sides to that as well because the other side is whoever you are that's coming side is whoever you are that's coming side is whoever you are that's coming into church life, there's always a into church life, there's always a into church life, there's always a proving period. We all have to go proving period. We all have to go proving period. We all have to go through different classes and to prove through different classes and to prove through different classes and to prove our our commitment and to be sewing and our our commitment and to be sewing and our our commitment and to be sewing and to be giving and to be part of the to be giving and to be part of the to be giving and to be part of the community life of the church. It's not community life of the church. It's not community life of the church. It's not like just because I'm a like just because I'm a like just because I'm a I've got a speaking gift, suddenly I I've got a speaking gift, suddenly I I've got a speaking gift, suddenly I came into my church and my pastor said, came into my church and my pastor said, came into my church and my pastor said, "You're going to go on the pulpit "You're going to go on the pulpit "You're going to go on the pulpit because you're Christine Caine." And so because you're Christine Caine." And so because you're Christine Caine." And so I mean, I've got to be like every other I mean, I've got to be like every other I mean, I've got to be like every other person that comes through church. I'm person that comes through church. I'm person that comes through church. I'm going to go through um you know, uh not going to go through um you know, uh not going to go through um you know, uh not any believer classes but our our any believer classes but our our any believer classes but our our membership classes, and our I'm going to membership classes, and our I'm going to membership classes, and our I'm going to go through like just like everybody go through like just like everybody go through like just like everybody else. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I be else. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I be else. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I be um serving and saying, I will do um serving and saying, I will do um serving and saying, I will do whatever, because that's actually got to whatever, because that's actually got to whatever, because that's actually got to be the attitude of a Christian. And I be the attitude of a Christian. And I be the attitude of a Christian. And I think because we have the luxury in more think because we have the luxury in more think because we have the luxury in more of our context to go, how can my gift be of our context to go, how can my gift be of our context to go, how can my gift be utilized or utilized or utilized or um you know, because I have a lot of um you know, because I have a lot of um you know, because I have a lot of influence in this field, well then influence in this field, well then influence in this field, well then because I may be a great communicator in because I may be a great communicator in because I may be a great communicator in a social media context, it does not mean a social media context, it does not mean a social media context, it does not mean I'm called by God to be a pastor or a I'm called by God to be a pastor or a I'm called by God to be a pastor or a preacher or a you know, a teacher or preacher or a you know, a teacher or preacher or a you know, a teacher or um an apostle or the you know, the five um an apostle or the you know, the five um an apostle or the you know, the five whatever you believe about the Ephesians whatever you believe about the Ephesians whatever you believe about the Ephesians four ministry gifts or that I've been

four ministry gifts or that I've been four ministry gifts or that I've been given certain ministry gifts out of given certain ministry gifts out of given certain ministry gifts out of Romans or Second Peter for the building Romans or Second Peter for the building Romans or Second Peter for the building of the church. So, I think even the of the church. So, I think even the of the church. So, I think even the bigger conversation has got to be okay. bigger conversation has got to be okay. bigger conversation has got to be okay. What when we're talking about social What when we're talking about social What when we're talking about social media, when we're talking about media, when we're talking about media, when we're talking about influencer every Christian is an influencer every Christian is an influencer every Christian is an influencer because every Christian has influencer because every Christian has influencer because every Christian has influence. I mean, that's the bottom influence. I mean, that's the bottom influence. I mean, that's the bottom line. If you're a Christian, you have line. If you're a Christian, you have line. If you're a Christian, you have influence. So, I think then we need to influence. So, I think then we need to influence. So, I think then we need to draw categories and go, what do we draw categories and go, what do we draw categories and go, what do we actually mean when we're saying that? actually mean when we're saying that? actually mean when we're saying that? And what does it mean to serve the body And what does it mean to serve the body And what does it mean to serve the body of Christ within the context of the of Christ within the context of the of Christ within the context of the local church? And God calls people and local church? And God calls people and local church? And God calls people and he sets every member in place. So, what he sets every member in place. So, what he sets every member in place. So, what does that mean? And then what does it does that mean? And then what does it does that mean? And then what does it mean to be a witness for Christ mean to be a witness for Christ mean to be a witness for Christ online um as in the same way that you online um as in the same way that you online um as in the same way that you you were a witness for Christ when you you were a witness for Christ when you you were a witness for Christ when you were a lawyer or that when I was working were a lawyer or that when I was working were a lawyer or that when I was working in the corporate world. in the corporate world. in the corporate world. You know, is a Christian social media You know, is a Christian social media You know, is a Christian social media influencer the same as well, I'm a influencer the same as well, I'm a influencer the same as well, I'm a lawyer that happens to be a Christian as lawyer that happens to be a Christian as lawyer that happens to be a Christian as well, therefore I have influence in my well, therefore I have influence in my well, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I'm a teacher that happens to workplace. I'm a teacher that happens to workplace. I'm a teacher that happens to be a Christian, therefore I have be a Christian, therefore I have be a Christian, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I just think influence in my workplace. I just think influence in my workplace. I just think to um just slot categories and go, well, to um just slot categories and go, well, to um just slot categories and go, well, because you can do this here means because you can do this here means because you can do this here means you're automatically going to do this on you're automatically going to do this on you're automatically going to do this on a platform without looking at the a platform without looking at the a platform without looking at the ministry component that we're called ministry component that we're called ministry component that we're called actually we're ministers of the gospel actually we're ministers of the gospel actually we're ministers of the gospel if you're called into that kind of local if you're called into that kind of local if you're called into that kind of local church work. I and I'm thinking the same church work. I and I'm thinking the same church work. I and I'm thinking the same thing for women. Um God sets every thing for women. Um God sets every thing for women. Um God sets every member in place and there are ministry member in place and there are ministry member in place and there are ministry gifts, there are other gifts of gifts, there are other gifts of gifts, there are other gifts of hospitality Yeah, all the other gifts hospitality Yeah, all the other gifts hospitality Yeah, all the other gifts that are that are mentioned in in Romans that are that are mentioned in in Romans that are that are mentioned in in Romans and Corinthians.

and Corinthians. and Corinthians. So I think that we've elevated one gift So I think that we've elevated one gift So I think that we've elevated one gift maybe like the influencer gift or maybe like the influencer gift or maybe like the influencer gift or something that's not even actually something that's not even actually something that's not even actually listed in the Bible and we need to look listed in the Bible and we need to look listed in the Bible and we need to look at the other 20 gifts and go, "Okay, at the other 20 gifts and go, "Okay, at the other 20 gifts and go, "Okay, these are the 20 gifts that the God these are the 20 gifts that the God these are the 20 gifts that the God himself has given to the church." himself has given to the church." himself has given to the church." Many of them are pretty modest. Well, Many of them are pretty modest. Well, Many of them are pretty modest. Well, that's what I mean from hospitality that's what I mean from hospitality that's what I mean from hospitality hospitality hospitality hospitality No, good point. to the same category and No, good point. to the same category and No, good point. to the same category and saying where can we all serve we they saying where can we all serve we they saying where can we all serve we they should actually be give because they're should actually be give because they're should actually be give because they're gifts that God gave, not gifts that sort gifts that God gave, not gifts that sort gifts that God gave, not gifts that sort of we we can make and we publicize. I of we we can make and we publicize. I of we we can make and we publicize. I think the conversation has to come think the conversation has to come think the conversation has to come within the context of within the context of within the context of spiritual gifts. There's a different spiritual gifts. There's a different spiritual gifts. There's a different thing with evangelizing non-believers thing with evangelizing non-believers thing with evangelizing non-believers which is where I think a lot of the which is where I think a lot of the which is where I think a lot of the influencer gift is is like, you know, influencer gift is is like, you know, influencer gift is is like, you know, really being able to be a witness for really being able to be a witness for really being able to be a witness for for Christ. for Christ. for Christ. And there's different gifts that God's And there's different gifts that God's And there's different gifts that God's given us for the building up of his body given us for the building up of his body given us for the building up of his body and we're just sort of throwing it all and we're just sort of throwing it all and we're just sort of throwing it all into one and I think it in the women's into one and I think it in the women's into one and I think it in the women's conversation it can be the same thing as conversation it can be the same thing as conversation it can be the same thing as well. It's like, "Okay, well. It's like, "Okay, well. It's like, "Okay, can we just have a broader longer can we just have a broader longer can we just have a broader longer conversation and put lots of things up conversation and put lots of things up conversation and put lots of things up on a whiteboard and go, 'What are we on a whiteboard and go, 'What are we on a whiteboard and go, 'What are we exactly talking about?'" Because when it exactly talking about?'" Because when it exactly talking about?'" Because when it comes to maybe even preaching and comes to maybe even preaching and comes to maybe even preaching and teaching, well, even, you know, Paul teaching, well, even, you know, Paul teaching, well, even, you know, Paul writes some some are called to be writes some some are called to be writes some some are called to be prophets, pastors, evangelists, prophets, pastors, evangelists, prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers, you know, teachers, you know, teachers, you know, not all. Many more, 99.9% are called to not all. Many more, 99.9% are called to not all. Many more, 99.9% are called to be witnesses for Christ in the be witnesses for Christ in the be witnesses for Christ in the marketplace. So how why are we marketplace. So how why are we marketplace. So how why are we convoluting both of those things rather convoluting both of those things rather convoluting both of those things rather than saying than saying than saying these some are supposed to be equipping

these some are supposed to be equipping these some are supposed to be equipping these most and all of it is valid in the these most and all of it is valid in the these most and all of it is valid in the kingdom of God because the whole earth kingdom of God because the whole earth kingdom of God because the whole earth is the Lord's. So is the Lord's. So is the Lord's. So I say all that to you to go, I just I say all that to you to go, I just I say all that to you to go, I just think we can have a broader conversation think we can have a broader conversation think we can have a broader conversation and find that I know at Propel we are and find that I know at Propel we are and find that I know at Propel we are very committed to saying, "My job, if very committed to saying, "My job, if very committed to saying, "My job, if God has called me to preach and teach, God has called me to preach and teach, God has called me to preach and teach, is to train and equip the saints to do is to train and equip the saints to do is to train and equip the saints to do the work of the ministry." So, how am I the work of the ministry." So, how am I the work of the ministry." So, how am I training and equipping women that within training and equipping women that within training and equipping women that within their sphere of influence, they are their sphere of influence, they are their sphere of influence, they are flourishing, thriving, and ultimately flourishing, thriving, and ultimately flourishing, thriving, and ultimately being witnesses? Cuz that's what Jesus being witnesses? Cuz that's what Jesus being witnesses? Cuz that's what Jesus said, "You're going to receive power to said, "You're going to receive power to said, "You're going to receive power to be witnesses for the gospel." And so, to be witnesses for the gospel." And so, to be witnesses for the gospel." And so, to me, me, me, more than fulfilling my goal, or am I more than fulfilling my goal, or am I more than fulfilling my goal, or am I using just my gifts, or am I doing what using just my gifts, or am I doing what using just my gifts, or am I doing what I want, or what I'm best at? I want, or what I'm best at? I want, or what I'm best at? You know, we've planted churches carry You know, we've planted churches carry You know, we've planted churches carry in Warsaw and Sofia, Bulgaria, in Warsaw and Sofia, Bulgaria, in Warsaw and Sofia, Bulgaria, Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm telling you, Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm telling you, Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm telling you, those pastors are not sitting around those pastors are not sitting around those pastors are not sitting around going, "Am I just doing the thing that I going, "Am I just doing the thing that I going, "Am I just doing the thing that I love to do most?" Because 99.9% of what love to do most?" Because 99.9% of what love to do most?" Because 99.9% of what they're doing is probably what they they're doing is probably what they they're doing is probably what they don't want to do, but for the sake of don't want to do, but for the sake of don't want to do, but for the sake of the kingdom, and they've laid down their the kingdom, and they've laid down their the kingdom, and they've laid down their lives for Christ, that's what they're lives for Christ, that's what they're lives for Christ, that's what they're doing. This episode is brought to you by doing. This episode is brought to you by doing. This episode is brought to you by Compassion. I have personally worked Compassion. I have personally worked Compassion. I have personally worked with Compassion International for years, with Compassion International for years, with Compassion International for years, and one thing I love about them is their and one thing I love about them is their and one thing I love about them is their dedication to empowering the local dedication to empowering the local dedication to empowering the local church. They understand that the church church. They understand that the church church. They understand that the church is actually God's chosen instrument to is actually God's chosen instrument to is actually God's chosen instrument to do his work here on earth. So, they work do his work here on earth. So, they work do his work here on earth. So, they work with churches around the globe and here with churches around the globe and here with churches around the globe and here at home, churches just like yours. You at home, churches just like yours. You at home, churches just like yours. You can partner with Compassion and equip can partner with Compassion and equip can partner with Compassion and equip your church members to step into global your church members to step into global your church members to step into global missions. They've got a library of

missions. They've got a library of missions. They've got a library of resources, experiences, and events for resources, experiences, and events for resources, experiences, and events for leaders just like you. Your church leaders just like you. Your church leaders just like you. Your church family is going to get encouraged to go family is going to get encouraged to go family is going to get encouraged to go and make disciples, and you'll be ready and make disciples, and you'll be ready and make disciples, and you'll be ready when you partner with Compassion to lead when you partner with Compassion to lead when you partner with Compassion to lead them there. And the one thing I'll tell them there. And the one thing I'll tell them there. And the one thing I'll tell you is that when you lean into a you is that when you lean into a you is that when you lean into a partnership like this, partnership like this, partnership like this, when you lean into a posture of when you lean into a posture of when you lean into a posture of compassion like Jesus did, it's going to compassion like Jesus did, it's going to compassion like Jesus did, it's going to change your church, your leaders, your change your church, your leaders, your change your church, your leaders, your congregation, it'll change you. So, congregation, it'll change you. So, congregation, it'll change you. So, check out compassion.com/carey check out compassion.com/carey check out compassion.com/carey to download free resources and learn to download free resources and learn to download free resources and learn more about Compassion's ministry. That's more about Compassion's ministry. That's more about Compassion's ministry. That's e y. This episode is brought to you by e y. This episode is brought to you by e y. This episode is brought to you by The Art of Leadership Live. There is something amazing cannot Live. There is something amazing cannot do. Guess what? It can't replace the do. Guess what? It can't replace the do. Guess what? It can't replace the experience and the power of being in a experience and the power of being in a experience and the power of being in a room with the right people. Sure, you room with the right people. Sure, you room with the right people. Sure, you can tap AI on the shoulder at work when can tap AI on the shoulder at work when can tap AI on the shoulder at work when you need to get something done today, you need to get something done today, you need to get something done today, but make sure you're intentional about but make sure you're intentional about but make sure you're intentional about spending time with actual people who can spending time with actual people who can spending time with actual people who can push you and can help you grow push you and can help you grow push you and can help you grow spiritually, emotionally, and as a spiritually, emotionally, and as a spiritually, emotionally, and as a leader. You know that church is more leader. You know that church is more leader. You know that church is more powerful in person with others.

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this episode to secure your spot and the this episode to secure your spot and the best pricing before April 30th. That's best pricing before April 30th. That's best pricing before April 30th. That's the art of leadershiplive.com. the art of leadershiplive.com. the art of leadershiplive.com. I'd love to see you there. Barna is I'd love to see you there. Barna is I'd love to see you there. Barna is doing a deep dive on the data but why doing a deep dive on the data but why doing a deep dive on the data but why women are leaving the church so we'll women are leaving the church so we'll women are leaving the church so we'll have answers maybe end of the year next have answers maybe end of the year next have answers maybe end of the year next year. year. year. But I'm really curious because I think But I'm really curious because I think But I'm really curious because I think you know, I'm not leading a local church you know, I'm not leading a local church you know, I'm not leading a local church right now but if I was I would be right now but if I was I would be right now but if I was I would be looking at our data to see are we looking at our data to see are we looking at our data to see are we matching that trend or are we bucking matching that trend or are we bucking matching that trend or are we bucking it? What is it? What is it? What is where is the leak in the system? And so where is the leak in the system? And so where is the leak in the system? And so before we wrap up and get on to other before we wrap up and get on to other before we wrap up and get on to other subjects, do you have subjects, do you have subjects, do you have anything else on women leaving the anything else on women leaving the anything else on women leaving the church that you want to note knowing church that you want to note knowing church that you want to note knowing that there's a lot of church leaders that there's a lot of church leaders that there's a lot of church leaders listening right now. Anything else that listening right now. Anything else that listening right now. Anything else that comes to mind? comes to mind? comes to mind? >> and I know you've you've covered this >> and I know you've you've covered this >> and I know you've you've covered this and you've got some great interviews but and you've got some great interviews but and you've got some great interviews but I mean there is no doubt that um not I mean there is no doubt that um not I mean there is no doubt that um not valuing the voice of women, not uh valuing the voice of women, not uh valuing the voice of women, not uh platforming women and giving them platforming women and giving them platforming women and giving them visibility. All of these things are visibility. All of these things are visibility. All of these things are factors and so they should be because factors and so they should be because factors and so they should be because Jesus valued women and Jesus platformed Jesus valued women and Jesus platformed Jesus valued women and Jesus platformed women. And in fact, you know, in Luke 8 women. And in fact, you know, in Luke 8 women. And in fact, you know, in Luke 8 um verses 1 to 3 when it talks about the um verses 1 to 3 when it talks about the um verses 1 to 3 when it talks about the it's almost like we forget that. We it's almost like we forget that. We it's almost like we forget that. We always preach Luke 7, you know, the always preach Luke 7, you know, the always preach Luke 7, you know, the woman that poured the oil over Jesus woman that poured the oil over Jesus woman that poured the oil over Jesus when he's at Simon's house and you know, when he's at Simon's house and you know, when he's at Simon's house and you know, that's so beautiful and he forgave this that's so beautiful and he forgave this that's so beautiful and he forgave this woman because she was so broken and so woman because she was so broken and so woman because she was so broken and so marginalized. Well, you know, three marginalized. Well, you know, three marginalized. Well, you know, three verses later he's traveling and verses later he's traveling and verses later he's traveling and preaching and teaching and it says um he preaching and teaching and it says um he preaching and teaching and it says um he was with the apostles and many women who was with the apostles and many women who was with the apostles and many women who funded his ministry out of their own funded his ministry out of their own funded his ministry out of their own means. So I'm going Yeah.

means. So I'm going Yeah. means. So I'm going Yeah. >> Listen, >> Listen, >> Listen, women to whom Jesus gives value and women to whom Jesus gives value and women to whom Jesus gives value and dignity and we we always elevate those dignity and we we always elevate those dignity and we we always elevate those women and thank God because I was one of women and thank God because I was one of women and thank God because I was one of those of course with my background of those of course with my background of those of course with my background of abuse and abandonment and rejection. abuse and abandonment and rejection. abuse and abandonment and rejection. And also And also And also I want to be I want to be I want to be >> in the other women as well. So can you >> in the other women as well. So can you >> in the other women as well. So can you be successful? Well, apparently be successful? Well, apparently be successful? Well, apparently they didn't have the Billy Graham rule they didn't have the Billy Graham rule they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling because Jesus was a single man traveling because Jesus was a single man traveling and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, and there was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, that was a she's obviously a married that was a she's obviously a married that was a she's obviously a married woman with means that traveled as part woman with means that traveled as part woman with means that traveled as part of his preaching team that funded his of his preaching team that funded his of his preaching team that funded his ministry out of her own means along with ministry out of her own means along with ministry out of her own means along with many other women the scripture says in many other women the scripture says in many other women the scripture says in Luke 8:3. So, I'm saying they were Luke 8:3. So, I'm saying they were Luke 8:3. So, I'm saying they were obviously successful uh financially obviously successful uh financially obviously successful uh financially independent women of generosity that independent women of generosity that independent women of generosity that funded it the mission of Jesus as he funded it the mission of Jesus as he funded it the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So, there is room for all of traveled. So, there is room for all of traveled. So, there is room for all of them, the poor, the broken, the them, the poor, the broken, the them, the poor, the broken, the marginalized, and the successful, and marginalized, and the successful, and marginalized, and the successful, and the leadership gurus. And so, I want all the leadership gurus. And so, I want all the leadership gurus. And so, I want all of those women to say, "We are all in of those women to say, "We are all in of those women to say, "We are all in the mission of God." So, expanding the mission of God." So, expanding the mission of God." So, expanding the mission of God to go beyond, you the mission of God to go beyond, you the mission of God to go beyond, you know, 1 hour on a Sunday to saying the know, 1 hour on a Sunday to saying the know, 1 hour on a Sunday to saying the other 167 hours of a week when we're out other 167 hours of a week when we're out other 167 hours of a week when we're out there, uh we are carriers of the gospel.

there, uh we are carriers of the gospel. there, uh we are carriers of the gospel. And so, how can we do that in the best And so, how can we do that in the best And so, how can we do that in the best way? So, of course, if you are not way? So, of course, if you are not way? So, of course, if you are not giving women any kind of visibility. I giving women any kind of visibility. I giving women any kind of visibility. I know at our church, we are so know at our church, we are so know at our church, we are so intentional with our formation of women, intentional with our formation of women, intentional with our formation of women, um uh and and so, you see it. So, our um uh and and so, you see it. So, our um uh and and so, you see it. So, our pews are full of women. And women pews are full of women. And women pews are full of women. And women contribute at every level of a church contribute at every level of a church contribute at every level of a church life, and they keep coming because then life, and they keep coming because then life, and they keep coming because then a woman will not be sort of thinking a woman will not be sort of thinking a woman will not be sort of thinking twice about will I even invite a friend twice about will I even invite a friend twice about will I even invite a friend from work to church because she's going from work to church because she's going from work to church because she's going to go back into the dark ages. I'll I'll to go back into the dark ages. I'll I'll to go back into the dark ages. I'll I'll give you just one small story, but I give you just one small story, but I give you just one small story, but I think think think >> Yeah, please. a woman that I'm very >> Yeah, please. a woman that I'm very >> Yeah, please. a woman that I'm very involved in and have been for 20 years involved in and have been for 20 years involved in and have been for 20 years was um the vice president of a was um the vice president of a was um the vice president of a global I if I told you the name, you global I if I told you the name, you global I if I told you the name, you would know uh you know, huge insurance would know uh you know, huge insurance would know uh you know, huge insurance global company. global company. global company. multiplied multiplied multiplied billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars of billions and billions of dollars of billions and billions of dollars of budget. I It's so huge. And yet, comes budget. I It's so huge. And yet, comes budget. I It's so huge. And yet, comes into church and the pastor's like, you into church and the pastor's like, you into church and the pastor's like, you know, I'll just call her Sally. You know, I'll just call her Sally. You know, I'll just call her Sally. You know, Sally, when when you really want know, Sally, when when you really want know, Sally, when when you really want to do real ministry, then you can come to do real ministry, then you can come to do real ministry, then you can come and you can be on the church finance and you can be on the church finance and you can be on the church finance team. Of which probably the whole budget team. Of which probably the whole budget team. Of which probably the whole budget of the church was like a a petty cash of the church was like a a petty cash of the church was like a a petty cash budget for one day. You know, what I'm budget for one day. You know, what I'm budget for one day. You know, what I'm saying? Like I'm just saying that I saying? Like I'm just saying that I saying? Like I'm just saying that I think that it's just a waste of a think that it's just a waste of a think that it's just a waste of a resource. And all I thought is what a resource. And all I thought is what a resource. And all I thought is what a wasted resource. Now, I've got that wasted resource. Now, I've got that wasted resource. Now, I've got that person on my board and you're wondering person on my board and you're wondering person on my board and you're wondering why A21 is, you know, all around the why A21 is, you know, all around the why A21 is, you know, all around the world and because I'm like, I welcome.

world and because I'm like, I welcome. world and because I'm like, I welcome. Please bring those voices in because Please bring those voices in because Please bring those voices in because they desperately want to advance the they desperately want to advance the they desperately want to advance the kingdom. They want to use their gifts kingdom. They want to use their gifts kingdom. They want to use their gifts and talents to serve the kingdom. They and talents to serve the kingdom. They and talents to serve the kingdom. They love God. They honor God. love God. They honor God. love God. They honor God. So, that thought and there's so much of So, that thought and there's so much of So, that thought and there's so much of it. Now, it's changing, but I'm 60, so it. Now, it's changing, but I'm 60, so it. Now, it's changing, but I'm 60, so are you. So, our generation and above are you. So, our generation and above are you. So, our generation and above was sort of like, "Oh, sweetie, you was sort of like, "Oh, sweetie, you was sort of like, "Oh, sweetie, you know, you're okay. You can There was it know, you're okay. You can There was it know, you're okay. You can There was it well-meaning, well-intentioned, just well-meaning, well-intentioned, just well-meaning, well-intentioned, just extremely ignorant. And what a waste of, extremely ignorant. And what a waste of, extremely ignorant. And what a waste of, you know, a whole generation. And so, I you know, a whole generation. And so, I you know, a whole generation. And so, I I'm not even sure for most people. And I'm not even sure for most people. And I'm not even sure for most people. And it would be in some streams of the it would be in some streams of the it would be in some streams of the church, definitely it's a bit of a church, definitely it's a bit of a church, definitely it's a bit of a theological issue. So, it's just kind of theological issue. So, it's just kind of theological issue. So, it's just kind of like there's no like there's no like there's no they have no category to put a woman to they have no category to put a woman to they have no category to put a woman to do that. But, truly for most of the do that. But, truly for most of the do that. But, truly for most of the church, and I travel the world and I'm church, and I travel the world and I'm church, and I travel the world and I'm across a lot of streams, it's it's more across a lot of streams, it's it's more across a lot of streams, it's it's more ignorance and a lack of intentionality ignorance and a lack of intentionality ignorance and a lack of intentionality than anything than anything than anything deliberate. But, I know for most women, deliberate. But, I know for most women, deliberate. But, I know for most women, and I think long and hard about who am I and I think long and hard about who am I and I think long and hard about who am I going to invite where? Because I meet going to invite where? Because I meet going to invite where? Because I meet different women on the road and if I'm different women on the road and if I'm different women on the road and if I'm in different place, I'm thinking, "Where in different place, I'm thinking, "Where in different place, I'm thinking, "Where would I actually tell you to go to would I actually tell you to go to would I actually tell you to go to church in your city? Because you're church in your city? Because you're church in your city? Because you're going to think you've gone back to the going to think you've gone back to the going to think you've gone back to the Handmaid's Tale. You're going to be Handmaid's Tale. You're going to be Handmaid's Tale. You're going to be like, what on earth just happened?"

like, what on earth just happened?" like, what on earth just happened?" And it's not about even this role or And it's not about even this role or And it's not about even this role or this function. It's truly the lack of this function. It's truly the lack of this function. It's truly the lack of dignity dignity dignity and the lack of value. And I think if I and the lack of value. And I think if I and the lack of value. And I think if I have to sum it up because we were we have to sum it up because we were we have to sum it up because we were we this was not going to be our discussion. this was not going to be our discussion. this was not going to be our discussion. I think I hijacked your I think I hijacked your I think I hijacked your and we'll get to our discussion at some and we'll get to our discussion at some and we'll get to our discussion at some point, I'm sure. I think that if at a point, I'm sure. I think that if at a point, I'm sure. I think that if at a pastoral level that the initial pastoral level that the initial pastoral level that the initial discussion has really got to be discussion has really got to be discussion has really got to be what do we truly value women? Do we what do we truly value women? Do we what do we truly value women? Do we truly dignify them? And now let's be truly dignify them? And now let's be truly dignify them? And now let's be ruthless ruthless ruthless and rip apart everything that we're and rip apart everything that we're and rip apart everything that we're doing and say are we speaking out of doing and say are we speaking out of doing and say are we speaking out of both sides of our mouth? Are we saying both sides of our mouth? Are we saying both sides of our mouth? Are we saying we value and we dignify women? we value and we dignify women? we value and we dignify women? But the reality is But the reality is But the reality is in terms of visibility, in terms of visibility, in terms of visibility, function, function, function, inclusion in so many illustrations, how inclusion in so many illustrations, how inclusion in so many illustrations, how many texts did I preach out of 52 many texts did I preach out of 52 many texts did I preach out of 52 Sundays that are solely men? Did I Sundays that are solely men? Did I Sundays that are solely men? Did I preach and are the only texts about preach and are the only texts about preach and are the only texts about women the fact that they're all like women the fact that they're all like women the fact that they're all like loose floozies and Jesus forgives you?

loose floozies and Jesus forgives you? loose floozies and Jesus forgives you? You know, like is there maybe something You know, like is there maybe something You know, like is there maybe something else that the Bible has to say about else that the Bible has to say about else that the Bible has to say about value and dignity? Is it just the token value and dignity? Is it just the token value and dignity? Is it just the token Mother's Day sermon? You know, and we'll Mother's Day sermon? You know, and we'll Mother's Day sermon? You know, and we'll get someone up who may or may not even get someone up who may or may not even get someone up who may or may not even be anointed to preach, but we're just be anointed to preach, but we're just be anointed to preach, but we're just going to put them up because we think going to put them up because we think going to put them up because we think it's a it's a body, it's a female body. it's a it's a body, it's a female body. it's a it's a body, it's a female body. And I'm like that that's not helping. And I'm like that that's not helping. And I'm like that that's not helping. You're preaching, Christine. You're You're preaching, Christine. You're You're preaching, Christine. You're preaching. Come on. preaching. Come on. preaching. Come on. >> down the court. It's not like >> down the court. It's not like >> down the court. It's not like you know, so so what intentional you know, so so what intentional you know, so so what intentional pipelines and pathways do we have in our pipelines and pathways do we have in our pipelines and pathways do we have in our churches churches churches that go right down to the nursery that that go right down to the nursery that that go right down to the nursery that go a woman can walk in this be born into go a woman can walk in this be born into go a woman can walk in this be born into this place and there is an intentional this place and there is an intentional this place and there is an intentional pipeline and pathway to her development pipeline and pathway to her development pipeline and pathway to her development in the kingdom of God. Whether she wants in the kingdom of God. Whether she wants in the kingdom of God. Whether she wants to be a stay-at-home mom homeschooling to be a stay-at-home mom homeschooling to be a stay-at-home mom homeschooling five kids or whether she wants to be a five kids or whether she wants to be a five kids or whether she wants to be a corporate CEO in this house, there are corporate CEO in this house, there are corporate CEO in this house, there are pipelines and pathways of value, pipelines and pathways of value, pipelines and pathways of value, dignity, and leadership development. And dignity, and leadership development. And dignity, and leadership development. And really my intention in this this part of really my intention in this this part of really my intention in this this part of my life the next decade is to help my life the next decade is to help my life the next decade is to help churches, denominations, and pastors all churches, denominations, and pastors all churches, denominations, and pastors all around the world do that. Go even within around the world do that. Go even within around the world do that. Go even within your theological structure, how can we your theological structure, how can we your theological structure, how can we create pipelines and pathways with create pipelines and pathways with create pipelines and pathways with intentionality to help develop women in intentionality to help develop women in intentionality to help develop women in the church?

That is so helpful, and I'm glad I That is so helpful, and I'm glad I asked. I'm glad we had this asked. I'm glad we had this asked. I'm glad we had this conversation, but I also want to flip it conversation, but I also want to flip it conversation, but I also want to flip it a little bit, Christine, and ask you a a little bit, Christine, and ask you a a little bit, Christine, and ask you a little more personally, like being of little more personally, like being of little more personally, like being of our generation. our generation. our generation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You've seen things change, maybe not You've seen things change, maybe not You've seen things change, maybe not change enough, but I'm guessing you ran change enough, but I'm guessing you ran change enough, but I'm guessing you ran into a lot of obstacles Yeah. into a lot of obstacles Yeah. into a lot of obstacles Yeah. >> as a female preacher, as someone who has >> as a female preacher, as someone who has >> as a female preacher, as someone who has a call on her life. So, I'd like to know a call on her life. So, I'd like to know a call on her life. So, I'd like to know what are some of the obstacles you what are some of the obstacles you what are some of the obstacles you experienced in your life, and then experienced in your life, and then experienced in your life, and then why aren't you one of the deconverted? why aren't you one of the deconverted? why aren't you one of the deconverted? Why aren't you one of the people who Why aren't you one of the people who Why aren't you one of the people who say, "I love Jesus, say, "I love Jesus, say, "I love Jesus, just not doing the church." Cuz you're just not doing the church." Cuz you're just not doing the church." Cuz you're deeply engaged in the local church. deeply engaged in the local church. deeply engaged in the local church. >> Yes, very much. >> Yes, very much. >> Yes, very much. >> So, why didn't you become a statistic? >> So, why didn't you become a statistic? >> So, why didn't you become a statistic? >> Yeah, great question. Well, first and >> Yeah, great question. Well, first and >> Yeah, great question. Well, first and foremost, let's just say the grace of foremost, let's just say the grace of foremost, let's just say the grace of God. Yes, yes, to all of us. God. Yes, yes, to all of us. God. Yes, yes, to all of us. >> a given. Covering me. Covering you. But, >> a given. Covering me. Covering you. But, >> a given. Covering me. Covering you. But, but, grace and mercy, truly. Um and so, but, grace and mercy, truly. Um and so, but, grace and mercy, truly. Um and so, that is first and foremost, and not just that is first and foremost, and not just that is first and foremost, and not just a flippant statement, that is absolutely a flippant statement, that is absolutely a flippant statement, that is absolutely the the grounding of that. But, also, the the grounding of that. But, also, the the grounding of that. But, also, and I think Carrie, um and I think Carrie, um and I think Carrie, um you know, I want to be careful because I you know, I want to be careful because I you know, I want to be careful because I do know so many women that have just do know so many women that have just do know so many women that have just been so deeply hurt, so I don't ever been so deeply hurt, so I don't ever been so deeply hurt, so I don't ever want to dismiss that or diminish that. I want to dismiss that or diminish that. I want to dismiss that or diminish that. I don't want to appear that I'm not don't want to appear that I'm not don't want to appear that I'm not sensitive to that. Here's a couple and I sensitive to that. Here's a couple and I sensitive to that. Here's a couple and I don't have just the church thing. I come don't have just the church thing. I come don't have just the church thing. I come from a a staunch Greek Orthodox culture.

from a a staunch Greek Orthodox culture. from a a staunch Greek Orthodox culture. Um and I'm 60. So, back in the day, I Um and I'm 60. So, back in the day, I Um and I'm 60. So, back in the day, I was born in 1966, was born in 1966, was born in 1966, women were women were women were overtly secondary. I mean, my brothers overtly secondary. I mean, my brothers overtly secondary. I mean, my brothers were everything. I You know, we were were everything. I You know, we were were everything. I You know, we were definitely down on the totem pole. definitely down on the totem pole. definitely down on the totem pole. >> back to childhood, it was like, "Oh, not >> back to childhood, it was like, "Oh, not >> back to childhood, it was like, "Oh, not a son." a son." a son." >> cultural thing as well as then the the >> cultural thing as well as then the the >> cultural thing as well as then the the church thing. church thing. church thing. Here is one of the greatest gifts. When Here is one of the greatest gifts. When Here is one of the greatest gifts. When I really got saved, because it was in I really got saved, because it was in I really got saved, because it was in Australia, Australia, Australia, and um and in the context that I was in, and um and in the context that I was in, and um and in the context that I was in, you know, I was the immigrant girl from, you know, I was the immigrant girl from, you know, I was the immigrant girl from, you know, quite a a lower socioeconomic you know, quite a a lower socioeconomic you know, quite a a lower socioeconomic um, kind of suburb that I came from, um, kind of suburb that I came from, um, kind of suburb that I came from, government housing. Uh, you put all government housing. Uh, you put all government housing. Uh, you put all those things together. I had been those things together. I had been those things together. I had been abused. So, I was not anybody anybody abused. So, I was not anybody anybody abused. So, I was not anybody anybody anybody wanted. You know, I wasn't who anybody wanted. You know, I wasn't who anybody wanted. You know, I wasn't who you see today. I was like just And I got you see today. I was like just And I got you see today. I was like just And I got saved and then someone took me to a saved and then someone took me to a saved and then someone took me to a Pentecostal church. So, great. We were Pentecostal church. So, great. We were Pentecostal church. So, great. We were the ragamuffins. We were all the ones the ragamuffins. We were all the ones the ragamuffins. We were all the ones nobody wanted. We were the poor, the nobody wanted. We were the poor, the nobody wanted. We were the poor, the immigrants, the women. Like, it was just immigrants, the women. Like, it was just immigrants, the women. Like, it was just they threw us all in there together. And they threw us all in there together. And they threw us all in there together. And so, we were like in a warehouse. This so, we were like in a warehouse. This so, we were like in a warehouse. This was, you know, 1980s. Like, nobody was was, you know, 1980s. Like, nobody was was, you know, 1980s. Like, nobody was even thinking about us. We were nobody.

even thinking about us. We were nobody. even thinking about us. We were nobody. So, then, this is the the gift. Beggars So, then, this is the the gift. Beggars So, then, this is the the gift. Beggars can't be choosers. You know, one was can't be choosers. You know, one was can't be choosers. You know, one was sitting around going, "Okay, what gender sitting around going, "Okay, what gender sitting around going, "Okay, what gender are you and what gift can we use?" It's are you and what gift can we use?" It's are you and what gift can we use?" It's like, "We're desperate. like, "We're desperate. like, "We're desperate. Um, God is moving. People need to be Um, God is moving. People need to be Um, God is moving. People need to be saved." Everyone We were We were already saved." Everyone We were We were already saved." Everyone We were We were already such a mess. We were like just 1 in such a mess. We were like just 1 in such a mess. We were like just 1 in above in front of like the person that above in front of like the person that above in front of like the person that was on drugs or the person that was was on drugs or the person that was was on drugs or the person that was broken. We were just like 1 day more broken. We were just like 1 day more broken. We were just like 1 day more saved. And so, you didn't You didn't saved. And so, you didn't You didn't saved. And so, you didn't You didn't care. No one was asking what seminary care. No one was asking what seminary care. No one was asking what seminary degree did you have? It's like, "Do you degree did you have? It's like, "Do you degree did you have? It's like, "Do you know Jesus? Do you have a pulse? Get out know Jesus? Do you have a pulse? Get out know Jesus? Do you have a pulse? Get out there." You know, it was kind of that. there." You know, it was kind of that. there." You know, it was kind of that. Now, I'm you know, I'm saying that a Now, I'm you know, I'm saying that a Now, I'm you know, I'm saying that a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but not little bit tongue-in-cheek, but not little bit tongue-in-cheek, but not much. Uh, because it was a gift. So, it much. Uh, because it was a gift. So, it much. Uh, because it was a gift. So, it was That meant that my obvious either was That meant that my obvious either was That meant that my obvious either communication gift, leadership gift, and communication gift, leadership gift, and communication gift, leadership gift, and I say both are as strong as each other, I say both are as strong as each other, I say both are as strong as each other, um, um, um, very quickly were put to good use very quickly were put to good use very quickly were put to good use because nobody was thinking, "You can't because nobody was thinking, "You can't because nobody was thinking, "You can't do that because you're a woman." It was do that because you're a woman." It was do that because you're a woman." It was just uh, oh, and and I lived in the era. just uh, oh, and and I lived in the era. just uh, oh, and and I lived in the era. And girls, some of you I know I I'm And girls, some of you I know I I'm And girls, some of you I know I I'm almost scared to say this in 2026, but almost scared to say this in 2026, but almost scared to say this in 2026, but it was it was just you had to suck it up it was it was just you had to suck it up it was it was just you had to suck it up back then. It was, "Chris, you're the back then. It was, "Chris, you're the back then. It was, "Chris, you're the best guy for the job. You're the best I best guy for the job. You're the best I best guy for the job. You're the best I got that all through the '80s and '90s."

got that all through the '80s and '90s." got that all through the '80s and '90s." I'm sorry. It's just No, that's fair. I I'm sorry. It's just No, that's fair. I I'm sorry. It's just No, that's fair. I mean, we're just telling stories. We're mean, we're just telling stories. We're mean, we're just telling stories. We're telling what happened. Chris is the best telling what happened. Chris is the best telling what happened. Chris is the best man for the job. Okay. man for the job. Okay. man for the job. Okay. I saw that. I mean, did I sit down and I saw that. I mean, did I sit down and I saw that. I mean, did I sit down and think, well, of course, in today's lens, think, well, of course, in today's lens, think, well, of course, in today's lens, my gosh, that would be my gosh, that would be my gosh, that would be a canceling thing. Yeah. Okay. Now, and a canceling thing. Yeah. Okay. Now, and a canceling thing. Yeah. Okay. Now, and I'm not saying it's right, but what I am I'm not saying it's right, but what I am I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying is I could see God in it. And saying is I could see God in it. And saying is I could see God in it. And that it was like the Lord's opening this that it was like the Lord's opening this that it was like the Lord's opening this door. I've got an opportunity. So, door. I've got an opportunity. So, door. I've got an opportunity. So, absolutely in the 1990s when I was being absolutely in the 1990s when I was being absolutely in the 1990s when I was being raised in, you know, leadership, was I raised in, you know, leadership, was I raised in, you know, leadership, was I the only woman at every table? Yes. I the only woman at every table? Yes. I the only woman at every table? Yes. I was in denom- denominational head of was in denom- denominational head of was in denom- denominational head of our particular denomination in our particular denomination in our particular denomination in Australia. I was the head of the youth Australia. I was the head of the youth Australia. I was the head of the youth movement. To this day, which is not a movement. To this day, which is not a movement. To this day, which is not a great testimony, but I'm still the only great testimony, but I'm still the only great testimony, but I'm still the only woman that has ever held that role. Big woman that has ever held that role. Big woman that has ever held that role. Big youth events, you know, tens of youth events, you know, tens of youth events, you know, tens of thousands of young people in stadiums thousands of young people in stadiums thousands of young people in stadiums and and rallying all the denominations, and and rallying all the denominations, and and rallying all the denominations, all of that sort of stuff. Well, all of that sort of stuff. Well, all of that sort of stuff. Well, so I was the only woman at so I was the only woman at so I was the only woman at And and if you want to talk about And and if you want to talk about And and if you want to talk about sexism, sexism, sexism, I could not repeat on your podcast the I could not repeat on your podcast the I could not repeat on your podcast the things that I've heard. That things that I've heard. That things that I've heard. That Sure, that's true. And in 2023, I'm not Sure, that's true. And in 2023, I'm not Sure, that's true. And in 2023, I'm not saying any of it was right. But when saying any of it was right. But when saying any of it was right. But when Joseph was in prison, it wasn't right Joseph was in prison, it wasn't right Joseph was in prison, it wasn't right either. When Joseph was falsely accused either. When Joseph was falsely accused either. When Joseph was falsely accused in Potiphar's house, it wasn't right in Potiphar's house, it wasn't right in Potiphar's house, it wasn't right either. But the scripture says, either. But the scripture says, either. But the scripture says, but the Lord was with Joseph. This is but the Lord was with Joseph. This is but the Lord was with Joseph. This is fresh cuz I just preached this a fresh cuz I just preached this a fresh cuz I just preached this a passion. I'm not And I'm not in any way passion. I'm not And I'm not in any way passion. I'm not And I'm not in any way justifying anything that is not right.

justifying anything that is not right. justifying anything that is not right. But if I if my future in God is But if I if my future in God is But if I if my future in God is dependent on somebody else's dependent on somebody else's dependent on somebody else's sanctification, I am never ever going to sanctification, I am never ever going to sanctification, I am never ever going to fulfill my God-given destiny. Cuz if I fulfill my God-given destiny. Cuz if I fulfill my God-given destiny. Cuz if I wait for them to get it right, to say it wait for them to get it right, to say it wait for them to get it right, to say it right, to think right, which is what so right, to think right, which is what so right, to think right, which is what so much of our social media thing is doing. much of our social media thing is doing. much of our social media thing is doing. If I could just change their mind. If If I could just change their mind. If If I could just change their mind. If they And I'm like, "Honey, they And I'm like, "Honey, they And I'm like, "Honey, if the Holy Spirit of God cannot if the Holy Spirit of God cannot if the Holy Spirit of God cannot sanctify them at this rate right now, sanctify them at this rate right now, sanctify them at this rate right now, I'm not going to be able to." So, what I'm not going to be able to." So, what I'm not going to be able to." So, what I'm looking for is what Joseph did. I'm looking for is what Joseph did. I'm looking for is what Joseph did. Where's the God opportunity in this? Where's the God opportunity in this? Where's the God opportunity in this? Where did God open a door? And so, while Where did God open a door? And so, while Where did God open a door? And so, while everyone else is saying, you know, "I'm everyone else is saying, you know, "I'm everyone else is saying, you know, "I'm not going to do that because this isn't not going to do that because this isn't not going to do that because this isn't right because of ABC. Now, of course, right because of ABC. Now, of course, right because of ABC. Now, of course, let me put the disclaimer because again, let me put the disclaimer because again, let me put the disclaimer because again, that's something where I am not in any that's something where I am not in any that's something where I am not in any way talking about any form of abuse, any way talking about any form of abuse, any way talking about any form of abuse, any form of violence, any form anything form of violence, any form anything form of violence, any form anything illegal. illegal. illegal. That's a given. So, that's a given. That's a given. So, that's a given. That's a given. So, that's a given. Outside of that though, Outside of that though, Outside of that though, if it's well, you know, he's just a if it's well, you know, he's just a if it's well, you know, he's just a misogynist or this person is insecure or misogynist or this person is insecure or misogynist or this person is insecure or they're ego-driven or they're just a they're ego-driven or they're just a they're ego-driven or they're just a narcissist, well, that's really a narcissist, well, that's really a narcissist, well, that's really a sanctification issue. And that's up to sanctification issue. And that's up to sanctification issue. And that's up to the Holy Spirit. And I am not going to the Holy Spirit. And I am not going to the Holy Spirit. And I am not going to let that thwart me and I'm not going to let that thwart me and I'm not going to let that thwart me and I'm not going to waste my one and only life on this earth waste my one and only life on this earth waste my one and only life on this earth trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in that person's life. I'm going to look in that person's life. I'm going to look in that person's life. I'm going to look for where has God opened it up for me for where has God opened it up for me for where has God opened it up for me and I'm going to walk and then I know and I'm going to walk and then I know and I'm going to walk and then I know the same spirit that raised Jesus from the same spirit that raised Jesus from the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in me. So, I have agency the dead lives in me. So, I have agency the dead lives in me. So, I have agency regardless of what they think and I'm regardless of what they think and I'm regardless of what they think and I'm saying that to you as a 60-year-old that saying that to you as a 60-year-old that saying that to you as a 60-year-old that runs a global anti-trafficking runs a global anti-trafficking runs a global anti-trafficking organization that speaks globally, that organization that speaks globally, that organization that speaks globally, that that does what I do. So, there might be

that does what I do. So, there might be that does what I do. So, there might be some merit to what I'm saying is what some merit to what I'm saying is what some merit to what I'm saying is what I'm trying to tell people at this point I'm trying to tell people at this point I'm trying to tell people at this point is that it if you are going to just is that it if you are going to just is that it if you are going to just spend your one and only life trying to spend your one and only life trying to spend your one and only life trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in other do the job of the Holy Spirit in other do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives, you're going to be so people's lives, you're going to be so people's lives, you're going to be so disappointed. You will. You will disappointed. You will. You will disappointed. You will. You will deconstruct. You will walk away. deconstruct. You will walk away. deconstruct. You will walk away. But, I was never deluded to think that But, I was never deluded to think that But, I was never deluded to think that those people were God or that my destiny those people were God or that my destiny those people were God or that my destiny was in their hands. I knew no matter was in their hands. I knew no matter was in their hands. I knew no matter what role they had over me and obviously what role they had over me and obviously what role they had over me and obviously they did, I knew that my destiny, my they did, I knew that my destiny, my they did, I knew that my destiny, my purpose was in the hands of God and that purpose was in the hands of God and that purpose was in the hands of God and that promotion doesn't come from east or promotion doesn't come from east or promotion doesn't come from east or west, it comes from God and that God west, it comes from God and that God west, it comes from God and that God opens doors no man can shut. Does that opens doors no man can shut. Does that opens doors no man can shut. Does that mean I've had to keep my mouth shut at mean I've had to keep my mouth shut at mean I've had to keep my mouth shut at times? times? times? Um where when things were said to me Um where when things were said to me Um where when things were said to me that were just And again, I'm not that were just And again, I'm not that were just And again, I'm not talking about anything abusive. I'm just talking about anything abusive. I'm just talking about anything abusive. I'm just talking about whether it's narcissistic, talking about whether it's narcissistic, talking about whether it's narcissistic, whether it's just, you know, whether it's just, you know, whether it's just, you know, opportunistic, all of those sort of opportunistic, all of those sort of opportunistic, all of those sort of fallen human nature. Absolutely. fallen human nature. Absolutely. fallen human nature. Absolutely. Was I overlooked time and time again?

Was I overlooked time and time again? Was I overlooked time and time again? Um and Um and Um and was I more more skilled was I more more skilled was I more more skilled uh and you know, probably a better fit uh and you know, probably a better fit uh and you know, probably a better fit for certain things and wasn't given for certain things and wasn't given for certain things and wasn't given those roles because a man was? Yes, I I those roles because a man was? Yes, I I those roles because a man was? Yes, I I could name multitudes of those. could name multitudes of those. could name multitudes of those. Uh but why would I waste my time doing Uh but why would I waste my time doing Uh but why would I waste my time doing that? Because that? Because that? Because I'm now 60. So, there's a 40-year I'm now 60. So, there's a 40-year I'm now 60. So, there's a 40-year journey, I can tell you. And I'm journey, I can tell you. And I'm journey, I can tell you. And I'm thinking five big big promotions in my thinking five big big promotions in my thinking five big big promotions in my life that have brought me to where you life that have brought me to where you life that have brought me to where you see me now. None of those men are still see me now. None of those men are still see me now. None of those men are still in ministry. in ministry. in ministry. That that are there. None. That that are there. None. That that are there. None. >> Wow. Quit or disqualified? >> Wow. Quit or disqualified? >> Wow. Quit or disqualified? >> Yeah, both. Yes, in both cases. And so, >> Yeah, both. Yes, in both cases. And so, >> Yeah, both. Yes, in both cases. And so, but I imagine now but I imagine now but I imagine now imagine if I let them because of either imagine if I let them because of either imagine if I let them because of either their narcissism or their misogyny or their narcissism or their misogyny or their narcissism or their misogyny or their Imagine if I so internalized that their Imagine if I so internalized that their Imagine if I so internalized that that I thought, "I'm giving up on God that I thought, "I'm giving up on God that I thought, "I'm giving up on God and the church." Well, I'm where God and the church." Well, I'm where God and the church." Well, I'm where God wants me. And you know, they're they're wants me. And you know, they're they're wants me. And you know, they're they're responsible before the Lord. Now, for responsible before the Lord. Now, for responsible before the Lord. Now, for the abusive things, of course, thank the abusive things, of course, thank the abusive things, of course, thank God. Thank God for the awakening in the God. Thank God for the awakening in the God. Thank God for the awakening in the church in the last decade that is church in the last decade that is church in the last decade that is happening. Thank God for the reckoning happening. Thank God for the reckoning happening. Thank God for the reckoning and that people are being held to and that people are being held to and that people are being held to account and that um account and that um account and that um we are you know, have Thank God for the we are you know, have Thank God for the we are you know, have Thank God for the calling out. I mean, listen, I have been calling out. I mean, listen, I have been calling out. I mean, listen, I have been a voice for the voiceless for for my a voice for the voiceless for for my a voice for the voiceless for for my entire ministry life and um especially entire ministry life and um especially entire ministry life and um especially for the victims of human trafficking.

for the victims of human trafficking. for the victims of human trafficking. And so, abusive behavior in churches, And so, abusive behavior in churches, And so, abusive behavior in churches, thank God that's come to the forefront. thank God that's come to the forefront. thank God that's come to the forefront. Because the truth is that's not going to Because the truth is that's not going to Because the truth is that's not going to be most people's experience, most women. be most people's experience, most women. be most people's experience, most women. And now, it it needs to be And now, it it needs to be And now, it it needs to be front and center for what it is. Most front and center for what it is. Most front and center for what it is. Most women are going to come across women are going to come across women are going to come across basic fallen human nature. basic fallen human nature. basic fallen human nature. Our you know, we use the language Our you know, we use the language Our you know, we use the language narcissism, we use the language uh narcissism, we use the language uh narcissism, we use the language uh misogyny, we use the language where the misogyny, we use the language where the misogyny, we use the language where the people are just mean or unkind or people are just mean or unkind or people are just mean or unkind or unloving. That's what you're mostly unloving. That's what you're mostly unloving. That's what you're mostly going to come up across and that's going to come up across and that's going to come up across and that's what's going to make you want to quit. what's going to make you want to quit. what's going to make you want to quit. And things that are just unjust and not And things that are just unjust and not And things that are just unjust and not fair, and you're like, why is he fair, and you're like, why is he fair, and you're like, why is he promoted just because he's a guy? I've promoted just because he's a guy? I've promoted just because he's a guy? I've been doing all the work, and he's been doing all the work, and he's been doing all the work, and he's recognized. But, I see those things as recognized. But, I see those things as recognized. But, I see those things as tests from God. And I have found God has tests from God. And I have found God has tests from God. And I have found God has promoted me promoted me promoted me despite, in some cases, some people not despite, in some cases, some people not despite, in some cases, some people not wanting to. It's like, I don't know, the wanting to. It's like, I don't know, the wanting to. It's like, I don't know, the Lord did this. And the good news is if Lord did this. And the good news is if Lord did this. And the good news is if God puts you here, God keeps you here. God puts you here, God keeps you here. God puts you here, God keeps you here. If you put yourself there, God you have If you put yourself there, God you have If you put yourself there, God you have to keep yourself there. So, I'm never to keep yourself there. So, I'm never to keep yourself there. So, I'm never looking over my shoulder. I'm not trying looking over my shoulder. I'm not trying looking over my shoulder. I'm not trying to stress myself out. I'm like, God put to stress myself out. I'm like, God put to stress myself out. I'm like, God put me here. And you could tell me I'm not me here. And you could tell me I'm not me here. And you could tell me I'm not the most talented. I know. You could the most talented. I know. You could the most talented. I know. You could tell me I'm not the most eloquent.

tell me I'm not the most eloquent. tell me I'm not the most eloquent. I know. BUT, I DIDN'T PUT myself here. I know. BUT, I DIDN'T PUT myself here. I know. BUT, I DIDN'T PUT myself here. And throughout scripture, we always And throughout scripture, we always And throughout scripture, we always teach, you know, that God will use the teach, you know, that God will use the teach, you know, that God will use the unqualified. He'll take nobodies and unqualified. He'll take nobodies and unqualified. He'll take nobodies and make them somebodies. And then, we get make them somebodies. And then, we get make them somebodies. And then, we get so offended when God does it. so offended when God does it. so offended when God does it. We really do. We really do. We really do. Carrie, there's my Carrie, there's my Carrie, there's my So, I'm saying all that to go to the So, I'm saying all that to go to the So, I'm saying all that to go to the girls, hang in there. You know, hang in girls, hang in there. You know, hang in girls, hang in there. You know, hang in there for the stuff that is just fallen there for the stuff that is just fallen there for the stuff that is just fallen human nature, meaning people are just human nature, meaning people are just human nature, meaning people are just mean, unkind, their own sinful pride or mean, unkind, their own sinful pride or mean, unkind, their own sinful pride or arrogance or narcissism. Don't let that arrogance or narcissism. Don't let that arrogance or narcissism. Don't let that cut you out of the race. I mean, cut you out of the race. I mean, cut you out of the race. I mean, seriously, I always just think, you seriously, I always just think, you seriously, I always just think, you know, I I think I just outlasted the know, I I think I just outlasted the know, I I think I just outlasted the devil. And so, I'm still here. I'm just trying to be quiet to let you I'm just trying to be quiet to let you run because, man, that's so refreshing run because, man, that's so refreshing run because, man, that's so refreshing and a unique take. So, we've talked and a unique take. So, we've talked and a unique take. So, we've talked about our age and stage, the big year, about our age and stage, the big year, about our age and stage, the big year, your birthday. I want to suggest you're your birthday. I want to suggest you're your birthday. I want to suggest you're 60 going on 18 when it comes to energy.

60 going on 18 when it comes to energy. 60 going on 18 when it comes to energy. Oh my goodness, like Oh my goodness, like Oh my goodness, like if if if if somebody didn't know and was if if if if somebody didn't know and was if if if if somebody didn't know and was listening to watching this, they'd be listening to watching this, they'd be listening to watching this, they'd be like, who's this kid waiting to get let like, who's this kid waiting to get let like, who's this kid waiting to get let out of the box? What are you out of the box? What are you out of the box? What are you What are you doing? Because, you know, What are you doing? Because, you know, What are you doing? Because, you know, this was this was something I noticed this was this was something I noticed this was this was something I noticed when I was in my 30s. I'm like, by the when I was in my 30s. I'm like, by the when I was in my 30s. I'm like, by the time you get to our stage of life, time you get to our stage of life, time you get to our stage of life, a lot of people are out of gas, a lot of people are out of gas, a lot of people are out of gas, out of life. out of life. out of life. It's a series of every year I do less. It's a series of every year I do less. It's a series of every year I do less. It's not like 60 new things now that I'm It's not like 60 new things now that I'm It's not like 60 new things now that I'm 60. It's like 60 things I used to do and 60. It's like 60 things I used to do and 60. It's like 60 things I used to do and don't do anymore. don't do anymore. don't do anymore. Um Um Um and I I was determined not to do that. and I I was determined not to do that. and I I was determined not to do that. And so, I've got my own version of how And so, I've got my own version of how And so, I've got my own version of how to be at my best, etc. But, I'd love to to be at my best, etc. But, I'd love to to be at my best, etc. But, I'd love to know like know like know like you honestly, every time I've you honestly, every time I've you honestly, every time I've encountered you on stage, off stage, in encountered you on stage, off stage, in encountered you on stage, off stage, in interviews, interviews, interviews, you're just the Energizer Bunny. Like, you're just the Energizer Bunny. Like, you're just the Energizer Bunny. Like, you go and go and go and go. What What you go and go and go and go. What What you go and go and go and go. What What are you doing that is fueling your are you doing that is fueling your are you doing that is fueling your energy and your joy and your passion energy and your joy and your passion energy and your joy and your passion these days? For sure. I you know, I love these days? For sure. I you know, I love these days? For sure. I you know, I love that. And um that. And um that. And um you know, I've always had this uh theory you know, I've always had this uh theory you know, I've always had this uh theory that the longer we walk with the Lord, that the longer we walk with the Lord, that the longer we walk with the Lord, the more exciting it ought to be. Like, the more exciting it ought to be. Like, the more exciting it ought to be. Like, I can't imagine how you could be getting I can't imagine how you could be getting I can't imagine how you could be getting closer to the finish line. If we say closer to the finish line. If we say closer to the finish line. If we say that we have fixed our eyes on Jesus, that we have fixed our eyes on Jesus, that we have fixed our eyes on Jesus, the author and the finisher of our the author and the finisher of our the author and the finisher of our faith, how are you going to be getting faith, how are you going to be getting faith, how are you going to be getting closer to the finishing line closer to the finishing line closer to the finishing line and not be more excited and not be more and not be more excited and not be more and not be more excited and not be more energized and not have more of a glint energized and not have more of a glint energized and not have more of a glint in your eye. You've I've known him for in your eye. You've I've known him for in your eye. You've I've known him for almost four decades longer than I did almost four decades longer than I did almost four decades longer than I did when I was 20. So, this is like when I was 20. So, this is like when I was 20. So, this is like phenomenal. And um

phenomenal. And um phenomenal. And um and I'm getting closer to that finish and I'm getting closer to that finish and I'm getting closer to that finish line. So, even all the stuff that is line. So, even all the stuff that is line. So, even all the stuff that is really deeply challenging, it's like, really deeply challenging, it's like, really deeply challenging, it's like, okay, I'm closer to the end than I am to okay, I'm closer to the end than I am to okay, I'm closer to the end than I am to the beginning. If I want to I want to the beginning. If I want to I want to the beginning. If I want to I want to finish strong. finish strong. finish strong. >> Sometimes I do think about that. Yeah, >> Sometimes I do think about that. Yeah, >> Sometimes I do think about that. Yeah, it is. I want to finish well. Comforting it is. I want to finish well. Comforting it is. I want to finish well. Comforting thought. And I think I've had to learn thought. And I think I've had to learn thought. And I think I've had to learn to navigate very early on and especially to navigate very early on and especially to navigate very early on and especially helping to rescue the victims of human helping to rescue the victims of human helping to rescue the victims of human trafficking, the reality is trafficking, the reality is trafficking, the reality is you know, I I I've been privy to the you know, I I I've been privy to the you know, I I I've been privy to the darkest stories of evil for for two darkest stories of evil for for two darkest stories of evil for for two decades plus. Um things I could never decades plus. Um things I could never decades plus. Um things I could never say here. You know, when Nick and I get say here. You know, when Nick and I get say here. You know, when Nick and I get our reports from um our officers and you our reports from um our officers and you our reports from um our officers and you You I I could tell you You I I could tell you You I I could tell you last night what I was reading from our last night what I was reading from our last night what I was reading from our offices in Asia and I mean offices in Asia and I mean offices in Asia and I mean it would be overwhelming. It is so evil it would be overwhelming. It is so evil it would be overwhelming. It is so evil what is done to children and and um what what is done to children and and um what what is done to children and and um what human nature is capable of. human nature is capable of. human nature is capable of. I know we see so much in the news here I know we see so much in the news here I know we see so much in the news here and I think and there is still more and I think and there is still more and I think and there is still more evil. There's still more evil even than evil. There's still more evil even than evil. There's still more evil even than that. that. that. So, I had to and I've got two daughters.

So, I had to and I've got two daughters. So, I had to and I've got two daughters. So, I had to very early on and I started So, I had to very early on and I started So, I had to very early on and I started A21 right when I had Sophia. So, it was A21 right when I had Sophia. So, it was A21 right when I had Sophia. So, it was right then going, "God, I'm going to right then going, "God, I'm going to right then going, "God, I'm going to have to have to have to find a way. Either I'm going to become find a way. Either I'm going to become find a way. Either I'm going to become uh neurotic and very fearful um or I'm uh neurotic and very fearful um or I'm uh neurotic and very fearful um or I'm going to have a mental breakdown because going to have a mental breakdown because going to have a mental breakdown because this is just too much to be able to this is just too much to be able to this is just too much to be able to process. So, I learned then process. So, I learned then process. So, I learned then my shoulders are not broad enough to my shoulders are not broad enough to my shoulders are not broad enough to carry the suffering of the world or even carry the suffering of the world or even carry the suffering of the world or even the injustices that we see. the injustices that we see. the injustices that we see. I have to put them on shoulders that are I have to put them on shoulders that are I have to put them on shoulders that are bigger than mine to carry and of course bigger than mine to carry and of course bigger than mine to carry and of course that's only Jesus' shoulders at Calvary that's only Jesus' shoulders at Calvary that's only Jesus' shoulders at Calvary could carry that amount of suffering and could carry that amount of suffering and could carry that amount of suffering and evil. So, evil. So, evil. So, I learned very early on I can't take on I learned very early on I can't take on I learned very early on I can't take on the burden of the darkness and the evil, the burden of the darkness and the evil, the burden of the darkness and the evil, but I know where to put it really but I know where to put it really but I know where to put it really quickly. Even and I think that's how I quickly. Even and I think that's how I quickly. Even and I think that's how I can cope on social media and whatever is can cope on social media and whatever is can cope on social media and whatever is it doesn't seem to affect me quite like it doesn't seem to affect me quite like it doesn't seem to affect me quite like it affects others because I very quickly it affects others because I very quickly it affects others because I very quickly put it to the only one that can do put it to the only one that can do put it to the only one that can do anything about it ultimately, which is anything about it ultimately, which is anything about it ultimately, which is Jesus um rather than bearing the burden Jesus um rather than bearing the burden Jesus um rather than bearing the burden cuz his burden is easy and his yoke is cuz his burden is easy and his yoke is cuz his burden is easy and his yoke is light. So, any time it it it doesn't get light. So, any time it it it doesn't get light. So, any time it it it doesn't get easy in that way. I mean the burden not easy in that way. I mean the burden not easy in that way. I mean the burden not of course I work hard, but and the it of course I work hard, but and the it of course I work hard, but and the it feels heavy, then I know I'm carrying feels heavy, then I know I'm carrying feels heavy, then I know I'm carrying something Jesus never called me to something Jesus never called me to something Jesus never called me to carry. So, instantly I'm going to go to carry. So, instantly I'm going to go to carry. So, instantly I'm going to go to him and um I have probably said over my him and um I have probably said over my him and um I have probably said over my life, you know, I I love to confess life, you know, I I love to confess life, you know, I I love to confess scripture Isaiah 40:31 for about 30 scripture Isaiah 40:31 for about 30 scripture Isaiah 40:31 for about 30 years. You know, and I'll I'll say it years. You know, and I'll I'll say it years. You know, and I'll I'll say it I'll change the wording a little bit for I'll change the wording a little bit for I'll change the wording a little bit for me and put my name in it, but it's like me and put my name in it, but it's like me and put my name in it, but it's like um Christine, you know that if you wait um Christine, you know that if you wait um Christine, you know that if you wait upon the Lord, you will renew your

upon the Lord, you will renew your upon the Lord, you will renew your strength. Christine, you will mount up strength. Christine, you will mount up strength. Christine, you will mount up on wings like eagles. Christine, you on wings like eagles. Christine, you on wings like eagles. Christine, you will run and not grow weary. Christine, will run and not grow weary. Christine, will run and not grow weary. Christine, you will walk and not faint. And I I say you will walk and not faint. And I I say you will walk and not faint. And I I say that to myself all the time. And I'm that to myself all the time. And I'm that to myself all the time. And I'm like, you know what? Um I am not going like, you know what? Um I am not going like, you know what? Um I am not going to get weary. That doesn't mean I'm to get weary. That doesn't mean I'm to get weary. That doesn't mean I'm immune from suffering, pain, mistakes, immune from suffering, pain, mistakes, immune from suffering, pain, mistakes, loss, grief. I'm married for 30 years loss, grief. I'm married for 30 years loss, grief. I'm married for 30 years and all the beauty and the challenges and all the beauty and the challenges and all the beauty and the challenges that that brings. I've got a 24-year-old that that brings. I've got a 24-year-old that that brings. I've got a 24-year-old and a 20-year-old, so there's the and a 20-year-old, so there's the and a 20-year-old, so there's the reality of that. I have hundreds of reality of that. I have hundreds of reality of that. I have hundreds of staff and we deliver services in 22 staff and we deliver services in 22 staff and we deliver services in 22 countries. I mean, that alone is is an countries. I mean, that alone is is an countries. I mean, that alone is is an issue with A21, plus what I do, you issue with A21, plus what I do, you issue with A21, plus what I do, you know, um for women around the world. So, know, um for women around the world. So, know, um for women around the world. So, the fact is that if I let that overwhelm the fact is that if I let that overwhelm the fact is that if I let that overwhelm me, um me, um me, um then and it starts to get heavy, then I then and it starts to get heavy, then I then and it starts to get heavy, then I know somewhere I'm out of sync. Again, I know somewhere I'm out of sync. Again, I know somewhere I'm out of sync. Again, I can't limit I also am careful what I can't limit I also am careful what I can't limit I also am careful what I listen to. Remember it was 12 leaders, listen to. Remember it was 12 leaders, listen to. Remember it was 12 leaders, Carey, that went into the promised land. Carey, that went into the promised land. Carey, that went into the promised land. 12 leaders that Moses sent in in Numbers 12 leaders that Moses sent in in Numbers 12 leaders that Moses sent in in Numbers 13. And of those 12, 10 came back with a 13. And of those 12, 10 came back with a 13. And of those 12, 10 came back with a negative report. It wasn't The people negative report. It wasn't The people negative report. It wasn't The people didn't die in the wilderness really of didn't die in the wilderness really of didn't die in the wilderness really of their own volition. They died in the their own volition. They died in the their own volition. They died in the wilderness because of the negative wilderness because of the negative wilderness because of the negative report of 10 leaders. So, I'm very report of 10 leaders. So, I'm very report of 10 leaders. So, I'm very careful what leaders I listen to. And careful what leaders I listen to. And careful what leaders I listen to. And And the promise was there for everybody.

And the promise was there for everybody. And the promise was there for everybody. So, everybody could should have gone So, everybody could should have gone So, everybody could should have gone into that promised land, but not into that promised land, but not into that promised land, but not everyone did. And really a lot of this everyone did. And really a lot of this everyone did. And really a lot of this is the thesis of my book flourish is the thesis of my book flourish is the thesis of my book flourish because I'm going In Psalm 92, it says, because I'm going In Psalm 92, it says, because I'm going In Psalm 92, it says, "Even in old age, you will keep "Even in old age, you will keep "Even in old age, you will keep flourishing. Those that are planted in flourishing. Those that are planted in flourishing. Those that are planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish and the house of the Lord shall flourish and the house of the Lord shall flourish and they will bear fruit even in their old they will bear fruit even in their old they will bear fruit even in their old age." And David wrote, you know, that I age." And David wrote, you know, that I age." And David wrote, you know, that I am like a flourishing olive tree in the am like a flourishing olive tree in the am like a flourishing olive tree in the house of God. And when he was being house of God. And when he was being house of God. And when he was being chased and betrayed and almost killed chased and betrayed and almost killed chased and betrayed and almost killed and depressed and hiding in a cave, so and depressed and hiding in a cave, so and depressed and hiding in a cave, so I'm going, "What does it mean?" Because I'm going, "What does it mean?" Because I'm going, "What does it mean?" Because our generation in the church, in the our generation in the church, in the our generation in the church, in the Western church, is not seeing great Western church, is not seeing great Western church, is not seeing great examples of people flourishing to the examples of people flourishing to the examples of people flourishing to the end. And I I pray I want to be one of end. And I I pray I want to be one of end. And I I pray I want to be one of those. So, I'm like, if God says we're those. So, I'm like, if God says we're those. So, I'm like, if God says we're to flourish, of course Genesis 1, the to flourish, of course Genesis 1, the to flourish, of course Genesis 1, the mandate is, you know, go forth, mandate is, you know, go forth, mandate is, you know, go forth, multiply, reproduce, have dominion, multiply, reproduce, have dominion, multiply, reproduce, have dominion, flourishing. Jesus, John 10:10, I came flourishing. Jesus, John 10:10, I came flourishing. Jesus, John 10:10, I came that you might have life and life more that you might have life and life more that you might have life and life more abundant. He came that we would have a abundant. He came that we would have a abundant. He came that we would have a flourishing life. And then we And of flourishing life. And then we And of flourishing life. And then we And of course, I'm not ever talking about course, I'm not ever talking about course, I'm not ever talking about amassing, acquiring, or accumulating amassing, acquiring, or accumulating amassing, acquiring, or accumulating more things. I'm talking about what more things. I'm talking about what more things. I'm talking about what comes out of your life. I.e., love, joy, comes out of your life. I.e., love, joy, comes out of your life. I.e., love, joy, peace, kindness, self-control. All the peace, kindness, self-control. All the peace, kindness, self-control. All the things that we're not seeing in the things that we're not seeing in the things that we're not seeing in the world today. I'm going, whatever world today. I'm going, whatever world today. I'm going, whatever happened to this flourishing? Cuz happened to this flourishing? Cuz happened to this flourishing? Cuz obviously, we're not flourishing. You obviously, we're not flourishing. You obviously, we're not flourishing. You you look on social media and go, "Whoa, you look on social media and go, "Whoa, you look on social media and go, "Whoa, that is not the fruit of the spirit. I that is not the fruit of the spirit. I that is not the fruit of the spirit. I don't know what fruit that is, but that don't know what fruit that is, but that don't know what fruit that is, but that you're not you're not you're not You're not producing the fruit of the You're not producing the fruit of the You're not producing the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. But we should be. If we as spirit. Yeah. But we should be. If we as spirit. Yeah. But we should be. If we as Christians, if we're becoming Christians, if we're becoming Christians, if we're becoming Christ-like, it's not about how much

Christ-like, it's not about how much Christ-like, it's not about how much Bible knowledge or Bible memorization do Bible knowledge or Bible memorization do Bible knowledge or Bible memorization do we have? It's how much of the spirit of we have? It's how much of the spirit of we have? It's how much of the spirit of God are we producing? Are we God are we producing? Are we God are we producing? Are we flourishing? Are we rooted and grounded flourishing? Are we rooted and grounded flourishing? Are we rooted and grounded in Christ? And then in that, in Christ? And then in that, in Christ? And then in that, the kingdom of God, there's so much talk the kingdom of God, there's so much talk the kingdom of God, there's so much talk in our world and the narrative of in our world and the narrative of in our world and the narrative of justice about what the kingdom of God justice about what the kingdom of God justice about what the kingdom of God is. Of course, I'm all about justice. I is. Of course, I'm all about justice. I is. Of course, I'm all about justice. I I run a global anti-trafficking I run a global anti-trafficking I run a global anti-trafficking organization. But the kingdom of God, organization. But the kingdom of God, organization. But the kingdom of God, Paul says, Paul says, Paul says, righteousness, joy, and peace in the righteousness, joy, and peace in the righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost. So, to me, for a leader is Holy Ghost. So, to me, for a leader is Holy Ghost. So, to me, for a leader is not walking in righteousness, is not not walking in righteousness, is not not walking in righteousness, is not filled with the joy and the peace of the filled with the joy and the peace of the filled with the joy and the peace of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit. You could be running 100 services, you You could be running 100 services, you You could be running 100 services, you could be running big justice operations, could be running big justice operations, could be running big justice operations, you can be on the right side of every you can be on the right side of every you can be on the right side of every issue, but really, are you bringing the issue, but really, are you bringing the issue, but really, are you bringing the kingdom of God to earth? So, I could be kingdom of God to earth? So, I could be kingdom of God to earth? So, I could be running A21 and speaking around the running A21 and speaking around the running A21 and speaking around the world, but really, if I'm not about world, but really, if I'm not about world, but really, if I'm not about righteousness, joy, and peace, how much righteousness, joy, and peace, how much righteousness, joy, and peace, how much of the kingdom am I really bringing to of the kingdom am I really bringing to of the kingdom am I really bringing to this earth? And so, I think this earth? And so, I think this earth? And so, I think you know, there's a lot to be said about you know, there's a lot to be said about you know, there's a lot to be said about righteousness as a fruit of flourishing righteousness as a fruit of flourishing righteousness as a fruit of flourishing and that the righteous will flourish, and that the righteous will flourish, and that the righteous will flourish, the Bible says. And um joy and peace, the Bible says. And um joy and peace, the Bible says. And um joy and peace, and of course in there when it is I'm and of course in there when it is I'm and of course in there when it is I'm dissecting the olive tree and the olive dissecting the olive tree and the olive dissecting the olive tree and the olive branch and peacemaking, there would be branch and peacemaking, there would be branch and peacemaking, there would be something really wrong if I'd been something really wrong if I'd been something really wrong if I'd been running A21 for 20 years, preaching and running A21 for 20 years, preaching and running A21 for 20 years, preaching and teaching for 40 years, teaching for 40 years, teaching for 40 years, and I had less peace and less joy today.

and I had less peace and less joy today. and I had less peace and less joy today. My daughters would look at me and go, My daughters would look at me and go, My daughters would look at me and go, "Is this thing real? What are you even "Is this thing real? What are you even "Is this thing real? What are you even talking about?" And so I want to say to talking about?" And so I want to say to talking about?" And so I want to say to the body that could we not be so the body that could we not be so the body that could we not be so overwhelmed by this school and let's be overwhelmed by this school and let's be overwhelmed by this school and let's be careful how much of the language of the careful how much of the language of the careful how much of the language of the therapeutic culture that we're picking therapeutic culture that we're picking therapeutic culture that we're picking up, that we're leaving God out of this, up, that we're leaving God out of this, up, that we're leaving God out of this, and the power of God to bring and the power of God to bring and the power of God to bring transformation into our lives. transformation into our lives. transformation into our lives. What are some of the What are some of the What are some of the terms, phrases, concepts of the terms, phrases, concepts of the terms, phrases, concepts of the therapeutic culture therapeutic culture therapeutic culture that you would say are overused or maybe that you would say are overused or maybe that you would say are overused or maybe inconsistent with the gospel? Like what inconsistent with the gospel? Like what inconsistent with the gospel? Like what are you seeing and hearing that you are you seeing and hearing that you are you seeing and hearing that you would say, "No, that's not flourishing." would say, "No, that's not flourishing." would say, "No, that's not flourishing." For sure. And I think you know, you're For sure. And I think you know, you're For sure. And I think you know, you're talking to someone that so believes in talking to someone that so believes in talking to someone that so believes in therapy. Yeah, so I want to say that I therapy. Yeah, so I want to say that I therapy. Yeah, so I want to say that I believe believe believe >> Oh, me too. I've I've been in therapy >> Oh, me too. I've I've been in therapy >> Oh, me too. I've I've been in therapy for decades. for decades. for decades. >> therapists all over the world. So I >> therapists all over the world. So I >> therapists all over the world. So I thank God for it. But we also must not thank God for it. But we also must not thank God for it. But we also must not forget that Isaiah says one of the names forget that Isaiah says one of the names forget that Isaiah says one of the names of Jesus is wonderful, capital C, of Jesus is wonderful, capital C, of Jesus is wonderful, capital C, counselor. counselor. counselor. And um it's like we have forgotten our And um it's like we have forgotten our And um it's like we have forgotten our capital C counselor. So let me just give capital C counselor. So let me just give capital C counselor. So let me just give you an example that you an example that you an example that of course in the ministry space, in the of course in the ministry space, in the of course in the ministry space, in the pastoral space. I'm on a pastoral team.

pastoral space. I'm on a pastoral team. pastoral space. I'm on a pastoral team. I'm a teaching pastor. And so and I I do I'm a teaching pastor. And so and I I do I'm a teaching pastor. And so and I I do so many leadership conferences around so many leadership conferences around so many leadership conferences around the world church. I'm going to leave the world church. I'm going to leave the world church. I'm going to leave here to do one in London. Um here to do one in London. Um here to do one in London. Um you know, with the Anglican Church very you know, with the Anglican Church very you know, with the Anglican Church very soon. So here is the deal. soon. So here is the deal. soon. So here is the deal. Um when I hear and I'm hearing it Um when I hear and I'm hearing it Um when I hear and I'm hearing it increasingly in podcast, I think this increasingly in podcast, I think this increasingly in podcast, I think this was in an effort to was in an effort to was in an effort to correct something that was really wrong correct something that was really wrong correct something that was really wrong and and and um to show our parishioners that we are um to show our parishioners that we are um to show our parishioners that we are accountable and that we're getting help accountable and that we're getting help accountable and that we're getting help and we're self-aware. But the number of and we're self-aware. But the number of and we're self-aware. But the number of times I hear a preacher in their times I hear a preacher in their times I hear a preacher in their preaching go, "Last week when I was preaching go, "Last week when I was preaching go, "Last week when I was talking to my therapist, when I was in talking to my therapist, when I was in talking to my therapist, when I was in the counseling room Okay, so it's almost the counseling room Okay, so it's almost the counseling room Okay, so it's almost like a rite of passage now. I have got like a rite of passage now. I have got like a rite of passage now. I have got to say in every sermon that when I was to say in every sermon that when I was to say in every sermon that when I was talking to my therapist, I thought there talking to my therapist, I thought there talking to my therapist, I thought there was a day when I came to church cuz I was a day when I came to church cuz I was a day when I came to church cuz I actually wanted you to be talking to actually wanted you to be talking to actually wanted you to be talking to God. I've come here Could you tell me?" God. I've come here Could you tell me?" God. I've come here Could you tell me?" And it's almost like because, and And it's almost like because, and And it's almost like because, and particularly in my stream of the church, particularly in my stream of the church, particularly in my stream of the church, there has been such an abuse of God there has been such an abuse of God there has been such an abuse of God said, "I was talking to God." said, "I was talking to God." said, "I was talking to God." >> Yes. I understand that. So, I do want to >> Yes. I understand that. So, I do want to >> Yes. I understand that. So, I do want to say I totally understand that.

say I totally understand that. say I totally understand that. But, the overcorrection is so much that But, the overcorrection is so much that But, the overcorrection is so much that we have turned our talking to my we have turned our talking to my we have turned our talking to my therapist into therapist into therapist into Now, that is my stock standard. Now, I Now, that is my stock standard. Now, I Now, that is my stock standard. Now, I don't know if your therapist is a don't know if your therapist is a don't know if your therapist is a self-appointed spiritual director, is it self-appointed spiritual director, is it self-appointed spiritual director, is it someone that actually went to uh the someone that actually went to uh the someone that actually went to uh the school for the you know, like I mean school for the you know, like I mean school for the you know, like I mean there there are so many coaching there there are so many coaching there there are so many coaching certificates that you can get online certificates that you can get online certificates that you can get online that it's like So, that doesn't really that it's like So, that doesn't really that it's like So, that doesn't really tell me anything anyway. What does that tell me anything anyway. What does that tell me anything anyway. What does that even mean? Um so, I just think it's even mean? Um so, I just think it's even mean? Um so, I just think it's almost like we're saying, "Well, I've almost like we're saying, "Well, I've almost like we're saying, "Well, I've got God and I've got my Bible reading, got God and I've got my Bible reading, got God and I've got my Bible reading, but I really need you to know that I'm but I really need you to know that I'm but I really need you to know that I'm also doing ABCD." also doing ABCD." also doing ABCD." It can be a good thing, but let's not It can be a good thing, but let's not It can be a good thing, but let's not make let's not ensure that we're still make let's not ensure that we're still make let's not ensure that we're still People come because they want to hear People come because they want to hear People come because they want to hear from God. I'm assuming they're thinking, from God. I'm assuming they're thinking, from God. I'm assuming they're thinking, "I've been in a prayer closet with the "I've been in a prayer closet with the "I've been in a prayer closet with the Lord, and the word that I'm bringing is Lord, and the word that I'm bringing is Lord, and the word that I'm bringing is because something that I've had an because something that I've had an because something that I've had an impression that the Lord wants me to impression that the Lord wants me to impression that the Lord wants me to bring." I go to church cuz I know my bring." I go to church cuz I know my bring." I go to church cuz I know my senior pastor prays over our calendar, senior pastor prays over our calendar, senior pastor prays over our calendar, earnestly goes away, and we do our earnestly goes away, and we do our earnestly goes away, and we do our teaching roster, you know, a year out. teaching roster, you know, a year out. teaching roster, you know, a year out. Some people go, "Well, you're leaving no Some people go, "Well, you're leaving no Some people go, "Well, you're leaving no room for the Holy Spirit." I love what room for the Holy Spirit." I love what room for the Holy Spirit." I love what Pastor Eric says. He goes, "Your God's Pastor Eric says. He goes, "Your God's Pastor Eric says. He goes, "Your God's too limited. My God transcends time.

too limited. My God transcends time. too limited. My God transcends time. He's in the future. He already knows He's in the future. He already knows He's in the future. He already knows what we're doing for the next" And I what we're doing for the next" And I what we're doing for the next" And I love that. It's like he's He goes, "I've love that. It's like he's He goes, "I've love that. It's like he's He goes, "I've got a big view of God, not a small view got a big view of God, not a small view got a big view of God, not a small view of God." And I have I'm with Eric on of God." And I have I'm with Eric on of God." And I have I'm with Eric on that one. that one. that one. >> Me, too. Listen, I come from a totally >> Me, too. Listen, I come from a totally >> Me, too. Listen, I come from a totally different background, but I have learned different background, but I have learned different background, but I have learned to love this, and I get my teaching text to love this, and I get my teaching text to love this, and I get my teaching text like everybody else. And for me, it's a like everybody else. And for me, it's a like everybody else. And for me, it's a good check and balance cuz I'm on a good check and balance cuz I'm on a good check and balance cuz I'm on a team. I get a text, I have to do the team. I get a text, I have to do the team. I get a text, I have to do the work, I'm part of you know, so much else work, I'm part of you know, so much else work, I'm part of you know, so much else of what I do around the world is what I of what I do around the world is what I of what I do around the world is what I bring. So, I I it's a form of bring. So, I I it's a form of bring. So, I I it's a form of accountability. It's I'm monitored, I accountability. It's I'm monitored, I accountability. It's I'm monitored, I send my sermon in ahead of time, you send my sermon in ahead of time, you send my sermon in ahead of time, you know, all the things. And I think that know, all the things. And I think that know, all the things. And I think that is a really good check and balance to to is a really good check and balance to to is a really good check and balance to to keep me on track. I say that to go keep me on track. I say that to go keep me on track. I say that to go a lot of times where a lot of times where a lot of times where we've become so used to language like if we've become so used to language like if we've become so used to language like if we're not careful Mhm. we're calling we're not careful Mhm. we're calling we're not careful Mhm. we're calling everybody a narcissist. Well, do we everybody a narcissist. Well, do we everybody a narcissist. Well, do we really know what the clinical diagnosis really know what the clinical diagnosis really know what the clinical diagnosis of a narcissist really is before we tend of a narcissist really is before we tend of a narcissist really is before we tend to use that word because if someone to use that word because if someone to use that word because if someone maybe just having a bad day, is someone maybe just having a bad day, is someone maybe just having a bad day, is someone maybe has some character flaws, someone maybe has some character flaws, someone maybe has some character flaws, someone are they really a narcissist? Well, I are they really a narcissist? Well, I are they really a narcissist? Well, I don't know. I'm not qualified. I haven't don't know. I'm not qualified. I haven't don't know. I'm not qualified. I haven't gone to school to be able to diagnose gone to school to be able to diagnose gone to school to be able to diagnose someone and say that's what you are.

someone and say that's what you are. someone and say that's what you are. But, you know, I've got 22-year-olds But, you know, I've got 22-year-olds But, you know, I've got 22-year-olds throwing out these huge words and I'm throwing out these huge words and I'm throwing out these huge words and I'm like like like just because your boss wants you at work just because your boss wants you at work just because your boss wants you at work at 9:00 because that's the time you at 9:00 because that's the time you at 9:00 because that's the time you start getting paid does not mean they're start getting paid does not mean they're start getting paid does not mean they're toxic. Just because they may you know, toxic. Just because they may you know, toxic. Just because they may you know, I'm just saying like so everything is I'm just saying like so everything is I'm just saying like so everything is toxic, everything's narcissistic, toxic, everything's narcissistic, toxic, everything's narcissistic, everything's this or that because we've everything's this or that because we've everything's this or that because we've learned some words. learned some words. learned some words. Um and I'm like, okay, we've got to be Um and I'm like, okay, we've got to be Um and I'm like, okay, we've got to be really careful because where are you really careful because where are you really careful because where are you being formed spiritually? So, for me um being formed spiritually? So, for me um being formed spiritually? So, for me um going going going going to work and having to rub going to work and having to rub going to work and having to rub shoulders with other people um it was shoulders with other people um it was shoulders with other people um it was stuff that formed me. Having to be told stuff that formed me. Having to be told stuff that formed me. Having to be told things I didn't like about my my job and things I didn't like about my my job and things I didn't like about my my job and those things formed me. But, if those things formed me. But, if those things formed me. But, if everything is toxic, if every time if everything is toxic, if every time if everything is toxic, if every time if everything is stressful everything is stressful everything is stressful how am I building resilience into a how am I building resilience into a how am I building resilience into a culture? How am I building um strength culture? How am I building um strength culture? How am I building um strength into the next generation? So, I think into the next generation? So, I think into the next generation? So, I think what happens is there's been this shift what happens is there's been this shift what happens is there's been this shift so much so much so much that that that God wants me to be happy. Um therefore, God wants me to be happy. Um therefore, God wants me to be happy. Um therefore, here's a simple thing, okay. So, I was here's a simple thing, okay. So, I was here's a simple thing, okay. So, I was working with the staff of another um working with the staff of another um working with the staff of another um organization and I was doing a organization and I was doing a organization and I was doing a one-on-one interview and this person was one-on-one interview and this person was one-on-one interview and this person was telling me that in the early 20s, well, telling me that in the early 20s, well, telling me that in the early 20s, well, you know, you know, you know, I I love serving and they were using the I I love serving and they were using the I I love serving and they were using the word serving and I said, can I just ask word serving and I said, can I just ask word serving and I said, can I just ask a question?

a question? a question? Are you doing extended hours outside of Are you doing extended hours outside of Are you doing extended hours outside of what you're paid to do? They sort of what you're paid to do? They sort of what you're paid to do? They sort of looked at me like, no, you know, like looked at me like, no, you know, like looked at me like, no, you know, like whatever that and I said, so what you're whatever that and I said, so what you're whatever that and I said, so what you're telling me is you are paid to work a telling me is you are paid to work a telling me is you are paid to work a 38-hour week but you're calling that 38-hour week but you're calling that 38-hour week but you're calling that serving. I said, well, that's not serving. I said, well, that's not serving. I said, well, that's not serving. That's actually you're being serving. That's actually you're being serving. That's actually you're being paid to do a job, so it's probably right paid to do a job, so it's probably right paid to do a job, so it's probably right that your boss wants you to do that job that your boss wants you to do that job that your boss wants you to do that job and that there are and that there are and that there are there's KPIs and that, you know, when there's KPIs and that, you know, when there's KPIs and that, you know, when you have your assessments, it's not like you have your assessments, it's not like you have your assessments, it's not like this isn't called serving and I'm going, this isn't called serving and I'm going, this isn't called serving and I'm going, we need to get this right because that we need to get this right because that we need to get this right because that then affects church, it affects then affects church, it affects then affects church, it affects volunteerism in the community. If we're volunteerism in the community. If we're volunteerism in the community. If we're thinking me just turning up to get paid thinking me just turning up to get paid thinking me just turning up to get paid for what I do is called serving. I'm for what I do is called serving. I'm for what I do is called serving. I'm like, so what's working? So, where your like, so what's working? So, where your like, so what's working? So, where your job is. So, what is job is. So, what is job is. So, what is it's these sort of things that I I'm it's these sort of things that I I'm it's these sort of things that I I'm thinking, okay, thinking, okay, thinking, okay, terms and language and terms and language and terms and language and we're almost thinking like there is a we're almost thinking like there is a we're almost thinking like there is a place you come to work to do a job to be place you come to work to do a job to be place you come to work to do a job to be paid to be remunerated at the right paid to be remunerated at the right paid to be remunerated at the right rate, but this is not where you're rate, but this is not where you're rate, but this is not where you're coming to get your therapy. This is not coming to get your therapy. This is not coming to get your therapy. This is not where you're coming to get your I don't where you're coming to get your I don't where you're coming to get your I don't know, your relaxing or your joy know, your relaxing or your joy know, your relaxing or your joy necessarily for everything that you necessarily for everything that you necessarily for everything that you want. It is just an odd thing to me. I want. It is just an odd thing to me. I want. It is just an odd thing to me. I go, so where do So, all those scriptures go, so where do So, all those scriptures go, so where do So, all those scriptures in the Bible about you don't work, you in the Bible about you don't work, you in the Bible about you don't work, you don't eat, about going to work, about don't eat, about going to work, about don't eat, about going to work, about you being you being you being I said, we've had this great I said, we've had this great I said, we've had this great conversation in the last 10 years about conversation in the last 10 years about conversation in the last 10 years about the responsibility of leaders and the responsibility of leaders and the responsibility of leaders and bosses. Really great conversations, bosses. Really great conversations, bosses. Really great conversations, extremely necessary.

extremely necessary. extremely necessary. I've had to make adjustments, everyone's I've had to make adjustments, everyone's I've had to make adjustments, everyone's had to make adjustments. That's had to make adjustments. That's had to make adjustments. That's wonderful. I go, but there are equally wonderful. I go, but there are equally wonderful. I go, but there are equally as many scriptures in the Bible about as many scriptures in the Bible about as many scriptures in the Bible about the responsibility of workers and the the responsibility of workers and the the responsibility of workers and the responsibility not just of shepherds, responsibility not just of shepherds, responsibility not just of shepherds, but also of sheep. And I said, so but also of sheep. And I said, so but also of sheep. And I said, so where are we going to now start having where are we going to now start having where are we going to now start having some of those conversations because some of those conversations because some of those conversations because those are all the same scriptures in the those are all the same scriptures in the those are all the same scriptures in the same Bible. And so, we've all got this same Bible. And so, we've all got this same Bible. And so, we've all got this accountability and responsibility. And I accountability and responsibility. And I accountability and responsibility. And I think what has happened is we've had think what has happened is we've had think what has happened is we've had either a lot of people that maybe are either a lot of people that maybe are either a lot of people that maybe are not in leadership positions and have not in leadership positions and have not in leadership positions and have never been never been never been trying to say to a leader, this is how trying to say to a leader, this is how trying to say to a leader, this is how you should be. And I'm like, based on you should be. And I'm like, based on you should be. And I'm like, based on what experience or what knowledge or what experience or what knowledge or what experience or what knowledge or what So, and then because that there's what So, and then because that there's what So, and then because that there's some language that can be used around some language that can be used around some language that can be used around either toxic leadership culture or either toxic leadership culture or either toxic leadership culture or around narcissistic around narcissistic around narcissistic kind of leadership or I'm like, wow, kind of leadership or I'm like, wow, kind of leadership or I'm like, wow, you're just throwing around terms, but you're just throwing around terms, but you're just throwing around terms, but this used to be called coming to work this used to be called coming to work this used to be called coming to work and getting paid for doing a job. and getting paid for doing a job. and getting paid for doing a job. You know, and that's all. And someone You know, and that's all. And someone You know, and that's all. And someone actually asking you to present your actually asking you to present your actually asking you to present your reports reports reports is is not mean and it's not you know, is is not mean and it's not you know, is is not mean and it's not you know, that's just what you're supposed to do that's just what you're supposed to do that's just what you're supposed to do because it's your job. So, I think because it's your job. So, I think because it's your job. So, I think that's what I'm saying. And so, that's what I'm saying. And so, that's what I'm saying. And so, we've allowed some of that language to we've allowed some of that language to we've allowed some of that language to co-opt our spiritual formation. And and co-opt our spiritual formation. And and co-opt our spiritual formation. And and that I just think the pendulum swung a that I just think the pendulum swung a that I just think the pendulum swung a whole lot that way. It needed to start whole lot that way. It needed to start whole lot that way. It needed to start swinging, no doubt. It's just that it swinging, no doubt. It's just that it swinging, no doubt. It's just that it didn't stop in the middle. It kept didn't stop in the middle. It kept didn't stop in the middle. It kept going. And now I'm thinking there's this going. And now I'm thinking there's this going. And now I'm thinking there's this shift back.

shift back. shift back. And intuitively I think people know it's And intuitively I think people know it's And intuitively I think people know it's right. And and people that are really right. And and people that are really right. And and people that are really walking with the spirit and the people walking with the spirit and the people walking with the spirit and the people sitting in our pews and the people in sitting in our pews and the people in sitting in our pews and the people in our organizations, our organizations, our organizations, they know it's right. It's just we've they know it's right. It's just we've they know it's right. It's just we've had a big 10 years of it swinging the had a big 10 years of it swinging the had a big 10 years of it swinging the other way. other way. other way. Yeah, and there's there's a satisfaction Yeah, and there's there's a satisfaction Yeah, and there's there's a satisfaction in hard work. There is a satisfaction in in hard work. There is a satisfaction in in hard work. There is a satisfaction in going over and above. There's a there's going over and above. There's a there's going over and above. There's a there's a a joy a a joy a a joy that comes from work. And uh some of my that comes from work. And uh some of my that comes from work. And uh some of my favorite things to preach are series on favorite things to preach are series on favorite things to preach are series on work, you know, and there are equal work, you know, and there are equal work, you know, and there are equal admonitions for bosses and also for admonitions for bosses and also for admonitions for bosses and also for workers. workers. workers. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Right? And I think in the flourishing >> Right? And I think in the flourishing >> Right? And I think in the flourishing thing, I'm trying to put some of that thing, I'm trying to put some of that thing, I'm trying to put some of that back. Like flourishing doesn't mean that back. Like flourishing doesn't mean that back. Like flourishing doesn't mean that we're sitting down looking at the we're sitting down looking at the we're sitting down looking at the butterflies all day. You know, like butterflies all day. You know, like butterflies all day. You know, like that's not sitting on a beach. What that's not sitting on a beach. What that's not sitting on a beach. What we've done is had so much of this we've done is had so much of this we've done is had so much of this conversation which is so important. Like conversation which is so important. Like conversation which is so important. Like God is not a harsh God. There's beauty God is not a harsh God. There's beauty God is not a harsh God. There's beauty in the world and there's truth and you in the world and there's truth and you in the world and there's truth and you know, let's use our imagination. All of know, let's use our imagination. All of know, let's use our imagination. All of that is really important. But that's not that is really important. But that's not that is really important. But that's not how the world operates only.

how the world operates only. how the world operates only. Flourishing in our workplaces and you Flourishing in our workplaces and you Flourishing in our workplaces and you know, know, know, having a having a having a a real firm commitment to showing up and a real firm commitment to showing up and a real firm commitment to showing up and doing what God has called us to do. doing what God has called us to do. doing what God has called us to do. We've gone the other way. And so part of We've gone the other way. And so part of We've gone the other way. And so part of it is languishing. So you see that this it is languishing. So you see that this it is languishing. So you see that this real sort of meh attitude. I don't real sort of meh attitude. I don't real sort of meh attitude. I don't really care. really care. really care. That's why those of us that are sort of That's why those of us that are sort of That's why those of us that are sort of tuning into this revival, this the tuning into this revival, this the tuning into this revival, this the silent revival that you know, the quiet silent revival that you know, the quiet silent revival that you know, the quiet revival they're calling in England and revival they're calling in England and revival they're calling in England and the things that you've been even the things that you've been even the things that you've been even focusing on your podcast, the focusing on your podcast, the focusing on your podcast, the universities and what's happening in universities and what's happening in universities and what's happening in churches. We're seeing it. But the churches. We're seeing it. But the churches. We're seeing it. But the reason we need to be showcasing that is reason we need to be showcasing that is reason we need to be showcasing that is because there has become sort of such a because there has become sort of such a because there has become sort of such a languishing. It's not even languishing. It's not even languishing. It's not even It's not even having the energy not to It's not even having the energy not to It's not even having the energy not to care. It's just like an indifferent like care. It's just like an indifferent like care. It's just like an indifferent like people are just like yeah, that it's people are just like yeah, that it's people are just like yeah, that it's just this existing, this bland just this existing, this bland just this existing, this bland I I we we all sort of went so out there, I I we we all sort of went so out there, I I we we all sort of went so out there, you know, 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20. Everyone you know, 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20. Everyone you know, 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20. Everyone was just angry about everything and it's was just angry about everything and it's was just angry about everything and it's sort of like that's not going to make a sort of like that's not going to make a sort of like that's not going to make a difference. I'm just I'm just not really difference. I'm just I'm just not really difference. I'm just I'm just not really going to worry about the world. I'm not going to worry about the world. I'm not going to worry about the world. I'm not really really really I'm not really that worried about church I'm not really that worried about church I'm not really that worried about church and if people are going to come and and if people are going to come and and if people are going to come and people aren't going to come. It's just people aren't going to come. It's just people aren't going to come. It's just this sort of meh kind of like I don't this sort of meh kind of like I don't this sort of meh kind of like I don't know. Passive passive I want to say know. Passive passive I want to say know. Passive passive I want to say passivity. Yeah, and I'm sort of I think passivity. Yeah, and I'm sort of I think passivity. Yeah, and I'm sort of I think I wrote the flourishing to go I wrote the flourishing to go I wrote the flourishing to go I want to speak to that passivity and go I want to speak to that passivity and go I want to speak to that passivity and go we were actually created to flourish.

we were actually created to flourish. we were actually created to flourish. It's in us and it's time. I mean we're It's in us and it's time. I mean we're It's in us and it's time. I mean we're in 2026. in 2026. in 2026. You know, You know, You know, I mean I'm at a leadership conference I mean I'm at a leadership conference I mean I'm at a leadership conference not long ago and I'm I'm asking you not long ago and I'm I'm asking you not long ago and I'm I'm asking you know, your normal question pastors, know, your normal question pastors, know, your normal question pastors, leaders, how's church, whatever. And leaders, how's church, whatever. And leaders, how's church, whatever. And they're like they're like they're like to think that I would still get this to think that I would still get this to think that I would still get this comment in this year. comment in this year. comment in this year. Well, you know, Chris, Well, you know, Chris, Well, you know, Chris, before COVID, before COVID, before COVID, so I've got it then I know we're going so I've got it then I know we're going so I've got it then I know we're going to talk about numbers. It's either going to talk about numbers. It's either going to talk about numbers. It's either going to be to be to be how many on a Sunday We were doing great how many on a Sunday We were doing great how many on a Sunday We were doing great 7 years ago. And I 7 years ago. And I 7 years ago. And I Carrie, there was a day where BC stood Carrie, there was a day where BC stood Carrie, there was a day where BC stood for before Christ, NOT BEFORE COVID. OKAY, EVERYBODY, OKAY, EVERYBODY, WEAK, PLEASE. It's time to move on and WEAK, PLEASE. It's time to move on and WEAK, PLEASE. It's time to move on and start flourishing. And this to me is start flourishing. And this to me is start flourishing. And this to me is going to be so important for Gen Z. going to be so important for Gen Z. going to be so important for Gen Z. They've got to see us flourishing and They've got to see us flourishing and They've got to see us flourishing and think this thing's worth going all the think this thing's worth going all the think this thing's worth going all the way through cuz they've seen people way through cuz they've seen people way through cuz they've seen people maybe go to their 40s. maybe go to their 40s. maybe go to their 40s. And then you listen to so many, you And then you listen to so many, you And then you listen to so many, you know, of of of either the people that know, of of of either the people that know, of of of either the people that have well, whatever they've done, you have well, whatever they've done, you have well, whatever they've done, you know, just walked away or deconstructed.

know, just walked away or deconstructed. know, just walked away or deconstructed. And if they're the only conversations And if they're the only conversations And if they're the only conversations they're hearing about this is what they're hearing about this is what they're hearing about this is what happens at 40. I'm like, uh no, you need happens at 40. I'm like, uh no, you need happens at 40. I'm like, uh no, you need to hear No, no, no, cuz if you can push to hear No, no, no, cuz if you can push to hear No, no, no, cuz if you can push through some of that, this is what it through some of that, this is what it through some of that, this is what it could look like at 60. And this is And I could look like at 60. And this is And I could look like at 60. And this is And I think that's what they they're wanting think that's what they they're wanting think that's what they they're wanting to see. to see. to see. Well, one of your key points is that Well, one of your key points is that Well, one of your key points is that pruning is important. You use the pruning is important. You use the pruning is important. You use the metaphor of olive trees, olive oil, etc. metaphor of olive trees, olive oil, etc. metaphor of olive trees, olive oil, etc. But And we know that, right, from But And we know that, right, from But And we know that, right, from scripture, John 15, etc. that pruning is scripture, John 15, etc. that pruning is scripture, John 15, etc. that pruning is important. I look back at this point in important. I look back at this point in important. I look back at this point in my life. my life. my life. And if there's good in my life today, And if there's good in my life today, And if there's good in my life today, which there is, which there is, which there is, probably came from pruning. Amen. And it probably came from pruning. Amen. And it probably came from pruning. Amen. And it was really painful at the time and I was really painful at the time and I was really painful at the time and I resisted it. So, I'd love for you to resisted it. So, I'd love for you to resisted it. So, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the value of talk a little bit about the value of talk a little bit about the value of pruning and What is the difference pruning and What is the difference pruning and What is the difference between when God between when God between when God is pruning you, but it might feel like is pruning you, but it might feel like is pruning you, but it might feel like God is breaking you? God is breaking you? God is breaking you? Yes, I think that's very good. And I Yes, I think that's very good. And I Yes, I think that's very good. And I think any of us that are doing anything think any of us that are doing anything think any of us that are doing anything that has any longevity in the kingdom that has any longevity in the kingdom that has any longevity in the kingdom have gone through It's not a once and have gone through It's not a once and have gone through It's not a once and done. Different pruning seasons in our done. Different pruning seasons in our done. Different pruning seasons in our life. And it could hit life. And it could hit life. And it could hit Sometimes it's relationally. Sometimes Sometimes it's relationally. Sometimes Sometimes it's relationally. Sometimes >> He's still pruning me. Absolutely. I'll >> He's still pruning me. Absolutely. I'll >> He's still pruning me. Absolutely. I'll give you a great example. I think this give you a great example. I think this give you a great example. I think this might sum it up and really help people might sum it up and really help people might sum it up and really help people even organizationally as well. I I even organizationally as well. I I even organizationally as well. I I remember at the beginning of uh 20 remember at the beginning of uh 20 remember at the beginning of uh 20 24. So, now we're in 2026, so 2 years 24. So, now we're in 2026, so 2 years 24. So, now we're in 2026, so 2 years ago.

ago. ago. Um it was right around this time, Um it was right around this time, Um it was right around this time, January, you know, you'd vision to all January, you know, you'd vision to all January, you know, you'd vision to all your staff. I've got all of our offices your staff. I've got all of our offices your staff. I've got all of our offices on I've been calling um we meet on Zoom on I've been calling um we meet on Zoom on I've been calling um we meet on Zoom like a lot of people and I call it the like a lot of people and I call it the like a lot of people and I call it the upper Zoom room. So, I've been calling upper Zoom room. So, I've been calling upper Zoom room. So, I've been calling it for the last 5 years where we're it for the last 5 years where we're it for the last 5 years where we're going to the upper Zoom room. Um going to the upper Zoom room. Um going to the upper Zoom room. Um I didn't even know You know when you say I didn't even know You know when you say I didn't even know You know when you say things as a leader and then you go, "Oh things as a leader and then you go, "Oh things as a leader and then you go, "Oh my gosh, Lord, this is what I'm I wish I my gosh, Lord, this is what I'm I wish I my gosh, Lord, this is what I'm I wish I wish that's not what I meant." But I I wish that's not what I meant." But I I wish that's not what I meant." But I I mean I was do talking about the pruning mean I was do talking about the pruning mean I was do talking about the pruning cuz I really knew it was I going to be cuz I really knew it was I going to be cuz I really knew it was I going to be an intentional season of pruning and I an intentional season of pruning and I an intentional season of pruning and I was reading the text where it says, you was reading the text where it says, you was reading the text where it says, you know, know, know, those branches um that don't bear fruit those branches um that don't bear fruit those branches um that don't bear fruit are going to be thrown into the fire. are going to be thrown into the fire. are going to be thrown into the fire. And then it says though, Jesus said, And then it says though, Jesus said, And then it says though, Jesus said, "And those branches that bear fruit will "And those branches that bear fruit will "And those branches that bear fruit will also be pruned." And I'm saying to our also be pruned." And I'm saying to our also be pruned." And I'm saying to our team, team, team, "Well, guys, this is the year of pruned "Well, guys, this is the year of pruned "Well, guys, this is the year of pruned if you do, pruned if you don't. It's if you do, pruned if you don't. It's if you do, pruned if you don't. It's just pruning all around." I say, "So, just pruning all around." I say, "So, just pruning all around." I say, "So, the easy pruning the easy pruning the easy pruning organizationally and even in our own organizationally and even in our own organizationally and even in our own lives is the obvious stuff that's not lives is the obvious stuff that's not lives is the obvious stuff that's not bearing fruit anymore. You just kind of bearing fruit anymore. You just kind of bearing fruit anymore. You just kind of go, 'Yeah, that's it that's not even, go, 'Yeah, that's it that's not even, go, 'Yeah, that's it that's not even, you know, you'd you're going to do it. I you know, you'd you're going to do it. I you know, you'd you're going to do it. I can cut can cut can cut >> This branch is dead. That's it. Or >> This branch is dead. That's it. Or >> This branch is dead. That's it. Or it's not growing like the others. If it's not growing like the others. If it's not growing like the others. If I've got to make my choices, I can cut I've got to make my choices, I can cut I've got to make my choices, I can cut the budget to that ministry. I can the budget to that ministry. I can the budget to that ministry. I can You could do that. The hardest thing is You could do that. The hardest thing is You could do that. The hardest thing is the stuff that's bearing fruit. And when the stuff that's bearing fruit. And when the stuff that's bearing fruit. And when it comes to our age too, and I think it comes to our age too, and I think it comes to our age too, and I think this is where it works with the Lord this is where it works with the Lord this is where it works with the Lord too.

too. too. W- when I first got saved, the pruning, W- when I first got saved, the pruning, W- when I first got saved, the pruning, dear Lord, there was overt stuff that dear Lord, there was overt stuff that dear Lord, there was overt stuff that needed to be pruned. It was ungodly. It needed to be pruned. It was ungodly. It needed to be pruned. It was ungodly. It was Okay, 40 years later. Now, unless was Okay, 40 years later. Now, unless was Okay, 40 years later. Now, unless I'm hiding anything which I don't know I'm hiding anything which I don't know I'm hiding anything which I don't know to be in my life, there's nothing that I to be in my life, there's nothing that I to be in my life, there's nothing that I I obviously look at today and go, "Man, I obviously look at today and go, "Man, I obviously look at today and go, "Man, that that is a sinful thing that has to that that is a sinful thing that has to that that is a sinful thing that has to stop tomorrow." Okay, it's not so much stop tomorrow." Okay, it's not so much stop tomorrow." Okay, it's not so much that. that. that. So, God has to reveal what that is So, God has to reveal what that is So, God has to reveal what that is because obviously I'm not perfect and he because obviously I'm not perfect and he because obviously I'm not perfect and he has a way of doing that. That's the has a way of doing that. That's the has a way of doing that. That's the stuff where you go, "I didn't even know stuff where you go, "I didn't even know stuff where you go, "I didn't even know that was buried down there. And that's that was buried down there. And that's that was buried down there. And that's that's those seasons. And normally that that's those seasons. And normally that that's those seasons. And normally that will happen through something relational will happen through something relational will happen through something relational or something maybe or something maybe or something maybe in ministry because we're all in in ministry because we're all in in ministry because we're all in ministry that doesn't go the way you ministry that doesn't go the way you ministry that doesn't go the way you knew it could have gone and God gets knew it could have gone and God gets knew it could have gone and God gets your attention through that thing and your attention through that thing and your attention through that thing and you're like wow, that that you know, and you're like wow, that that you know, and you're like wow, that that you know, and then it begins something internally then it begins something internally then it begins something internally deeply painful because mostly by this deeply painful because mostly by this deeply painful because mostly by this stage you're not really expecting it stage you're not really expecting it stage you're not really expecting it unless you're living any kind of unless you're living any kind of unless you're living any kind of double life. double life. double life. >> Double life or whatever, yeah. Yeah, if >> Double life or whatever, yeah. Yeah, if >> Double life or whatever, yeah. Yeah, if you're not doing that by and large you're not doing that by and large you're not doing that by and large you're getting up having a quiet time, you're getting up having a quiet time, you're getting up having a quiet time, you're trying to love everybody, you're you're trying to love everybody, you're you're trying to love everybody, you're trying to you know, be nice to your trying to you know, be nice to your trying to you know, be nice to your spouse, you know, you generally you're spouse, you know, you generally you're spouse, you know, you generally you're trying to be a good person. So the Lord trying to be a good person. So the Lord trying to be a good person. So the Lord then goes then goes then goes and again it's always for purpose. If and again it's always for purpose. If and again it's always for purpose. If you want to keep bearing fruit Chris you want to keep bearing fruit Chris you want to keep bearing fruit Chris after 60, there's some things deep after 60, there's some things deep after 60, there's some things deep layers down in your heart that are going layers down in your heart that are going layers down in your heart that are going to have to be dealt with to have to be dealt with to have to be dealt with so that you can find greater areas of so that you can find greater areas of so that you can find greater areas of freedom for me to do what I need to do freedom for me to do what I need to do freedom for me to do what I need to do through you in the future. So I think through you in the future. So I think through you in the future. So I think part of why maybe we stop wanting to part of why maybe we stop wanting to part of why maybe we stop wanting to even flourish at our age, too is cuz you

even flourish at our age, too is cuz you even flourish at our age, too is cuz you go, I don't feel like going there again. go, I don't feel like going there again. go, I don't feel like going there again. Um Um Um >> Have I not arrived? I think I've >> Have I not arrived? I think I've >> Have I not arrived? I think I've arrived, right? I've had that thought arrived, right? I've had that thought arrived, right? I've had that thought and then I'm like that's such a dumb and then I'm like that's such a dumb and then I'm like that's such a dumb thought. thought. thought. >> and I don't want to cuz here's the >> and I don't want to cuz here's the >> and I don't want to cuz here's the difference for us now. We are a little difference for us now. We are a little difference for us now. We are a little bit more cognizant of the pain involved. bit more cognizant of the pain involved. bit more cognizant of the pain involved. It's kind of like you know, when when I It's kind of like you know, when when I It's kind of like you know, when when I had my first baby, I was so ignorant had my first baby, I was so ignorant had my first baby, I was so ignorant man. I'm going in there. I'm going to man. I'm going in there. I'm going to man. I'm going in there. I'm going to pop this thing out in 5 minutes and then pop this thing out in 5 minutes and then pop this thing out in 5 minutes and then the contraction hits. the contraction hits. the contraction hits. By the second baby, I'm not that cocky By the second baby, I'm not that cocky By the second baby, I'm not that cocky anymore because I'm like, okay anymore because I'm like, okay anymore because I'm like, okay but but it's going to there's going to but but it's going to there's going to but but it's going to there's going to be some and it's almost like that with be some and it's almost like that with be some and it's almost like that with pruning at this point. It's I want pruning at this point. It's I want pruning at this point. It's I want what's on the other side, but I'm deeply what's on the other side, but I'm deeply what's on the other side, but I'm deeply aware aware aware that this is going to hurt. You know, that this is going to hurt. You know, that this is going to hurt. You know, like and so I think sometimes you just like and so I think sometimes you just like and so I think sometimes you just go, oh I'm still going to get into go, oh I'm still going to get into go, oh I'm still going to get into heaven without having to do that. So you heaven without having to do that. So you heaven without having to do that. So you go, I I mean I I almost think it's go, I I mean I I almost think it's go, I I mean I I almost think it's selfish. It's like I don't want to keep selfish. It's like I don't want to keep selfish. It's like I don't want to keep growing. I don't want to keep growing. I don't want to keep growing. I don't want to keep flourishing. I'm really happy. And flourishing. I'm really happy. And flourishing. I'm really happy. And sometimes you can actually spiritualize sometimes you can actually spiritualize sometimes you can actually spiritualize it. Well, you know, it's not all about it. Well, you know, it's not all about it. Well, you know, it's not all about up and to the right, and it's not all up and to the right, and it's not all up and to the right, and it's not all about growing, and it's not And And yet about growing, and it's not And And yet about growing, and it's not And And yet I agree with all of those things. Your I agree with all of those things. Your I agree with all of those things. Your value, your significance, your security value, your significance, your security value, your significance, your security should never come from those things.

should never come from those things. should never come from those things. But you should be producing fruit until But you should be producing fruit until But you should be producing fruit until you cross the finish line. But we're you cross the finish line. But we're you cross the finish line. But we're We're called to There is no Uh Of course We're called to There is no Uh Of course We're called to There is no Uh Of course our bodies change. Uh I'm not always our bodies change. Uh I'm not always our bodies change. Uh I'm not always going to be running at this pace. You going to be running at this pace. You going to be running at this pace. You know, you call me the Energizer Bunny. know, you call me the Energizer Bunny. know, you call me the Energizer Bunny. Well, for how ever long God gives me Well, for how ever long God gives me Well, for how ever long God gives me this, but I don't compare my calendar this, but I don't compare my calendar this, but I don't compare my calendar this year with last year. I'm not saying this year with last year. I'm not saying this year with last year. I'm not saying how many times did I say I I really am how many times did I say I I really am how many times did I say I I really am not. Um and I'm But not. Um and I'm But not. Um and I'm But I don't want to leave nothing on the I don't want to leave nothing on the I don't want to leave nothing on the table this year. I want all of I want to table this year. I want all of I want to table this year. I want all of I want to do everything God's called me to do and do everything God's called me to do and do everything God's called me to do and next year and the That might look next year and the That might look next year and the That might look different. By God's grace, I pray I different. By God's grace, I pray I different. By God's grace, I pray I finish strong and healthy, but if I end finish strong and healthy, but if I end finish strong and healthy, but if I end up in a hospital bed and that's the way up in a hospital bed and that's the way up in a hospital bed and that's the way I Well, I want to be fruitful there with I Well, I want to be fruitful there with I Well, I want to be fruitful there with the doctor as I'm witnessing to the the doctor as I'm witnessing to the the doctor as I'm witnessing to the person, whatever it might look like. person, whatever it might look like. person, whatever it might look like. Just because it's not always up and to Just because it's not always up and to Just because it's not always up and to the right does not give you an excuse to the right does not give you an excuse to the right does not give you an excuse to stop doing everything. And I think stop doing everything. And I think stop doing everything. And I think that's where the selfishness comes in. that's where the selfishness comes in. that's where the selfishness comes in. It's like, "Well, I've earned this now. It's like, "Well, I've earned this now. It's like, "Well, I've earned this now. I can just I can just I can just And I'm like, "Uh what? Jesus bought my And I'm like, "Uh what? Jesus bought my And I'm like, "Uh what? Jesus bought my salvation. I'm supposed to do this till salvation. I'm supposed to do this till salvation. I'm supposed to do this till the day I die. Just because the world the day I die. Just because the world the day I die. Just because the world says now you've earned your retirement says now you've earned your retirement says now you've earned your retirement package and you can golf your way to package and you can golf your way to package and you can golf your way to heaven." I heaven." I heaven." I W- When I become presumptuous, something W- When I become presumptuous, something W- When I become presumptuous, something then has died in my heart. When I start then has died in my heart. When I start then has died in my heart. When I start thinking, "Well, I deserve this. I've thinking, "Well, I deserve this. I've thinking, "Well, I deserve this. I've been serving for 40 years. I I I'm going been serving for 40 years. I I I'm going been serving for 40 years. I I I'm going at that moment I'm no longer pursuing at that moment I'm no longer pursuing at that moment I'm no longer pursuing Christ. It's got nothing to do with how Christ. It's got nothing to do with how Christ. It's got nothing to do with how busy my schedule is. It's got everything busy my schedule is. It's got everything busy my schedule is. It's got everything to do with the posture of my heart. And to do with the posture of my heart. And to do with the posture of my heart. And that's really where the whole that's really where the whole that's really where the whole flourishing thing comes out of. So I'm flourishing thing comes out of. So I'm flourishing thing comes out of. So I'm like, "The more I commit to the pruning like, "The more I commit to the pruning like, "The more I commit to the pruning process, as painful as it is process, as painful as it is process, as painful as it is um um um And I And we have gone through the

And I And we have gone through the And I And we have gone through the biggest pruning in the last 2 years, but biggest pruning in the last 2 years, but biggest pruning in the last 2 years, but the best already as this year's kicked the best already as this year's kicked the best already as this year's kicked in, I'm like, "Lord, in, I'm like, "Lord, in, I'm like, "Lord, I can't believe what you've done." And I can't believe what you've done." And I can't believe what you've done." And the fruit and I I pray the fruit and I I pray the fruit and I I pray I pray to his will. I think it is that I pray to his will. I think it is that I pray to his will. I think it is that I'm I'm going to play a part in this end I'm I'm going to play a part in this end I'm I'm going to play a part in this end end time harvest, whatever you want to end time harvest, whatever you want to end time harvest, whatever you want to call it, this great revival, this call it, this great revival, this call it, this great revival, this whatever is happening on the earth right whatever is happening on the earth right whatever is happening on the earth right now. now. now. I have not come this far to only come I have not come this far to only come I have not come this far to only come this far. I have sown prayers and this far. I have sown prayers and this far. I have sown prayers and traveled the world and preached the traveled the world and preached the traveled the world and preached the gospel in you know, a hundred over a gospel in you know, a hundred over a gospel in you know, a hundred over a hundred countries for decades, not so hundred countries for decades, not so hundred countries for decades, not so that I can just tap out now. I'm like, that I can just tap out now. I'm like, that I can just tap out now. I'm like, "Oh, oh, I'm watching what God's doing "Oh, oh, I'm watching what God's doing "Oh, oh, I'm watching what God's doing and I want to whatever part, even if and I want to whatever part, even if and I want to whatever part, even if it's like on the sidelines praying, I'm it's like on the sidelines praying, I'm it's like on the sidelines praying, I'm going to be playing my part in this. I going to be playing my part in this. I going to be playing my part in this. I am not um am not um am not um I'm not I I call it the Hezekiah I'm not I I call it the Hezekiah I'm not I I call it the Hezekiah syndrome. syndrome. syndrome. Um Carrie, this is what's really scary Um Carrie, this is what's really scary Um Carrie, this is what's really scary and I think to a lot of leaders this is and I think to a lot of leaders this is and I think to a lot of leaders this is what the moment we're in. what the moment we're in. what the moment we're in. It's um you know, King Hezekiah, It's um you know, King Hezekiah, It's um you know, King Hezekiah, scripture tells us in second he was such scripture tells us in second he was such scripture tells us in second he was such a great king. There was none a great king. There was none a great king. There was none but but but in in in um Isaiah 39, that chapter, every pastor um Isaiah 39, that chapter, every pastor um Isaiah 39, that chapter, every pastor listening to this ought to go and and listening to this ought to go and and listening to this ought to go and and read it after this podcast. It's read it after this podcast. It's read it after this podcast. It's chilling. It's um here goes Hezekiah chilling. It's um here goes Hezekiah chilling. It's um here goes Hezekiah after he's done it all right. I mean, after he's done it all right. I mean, after he's done it all right. I mean, this is the dude that prayed so hard, this is the dude that prayed so hard, this is the dude that prayed so hard, you know, the the Syrian army was wiped you know, the the Syrian army was wiped you know, the the Syrian army was wiped out and he prayed so hard that God gave out and he prayed so hard that God gave out and he prayed so hard that God gave him 15 extra years. I mean, he reversed him 15 extra years. I mean, he reversed him 15 extra years. I mean, he reversed a prophecy. Isaiah the prophet came and a prophecy. Isaiah the prophet came and a prophecy. Isaiah the prophet came and said, "You're done." And he reversed a said, "You're done." And he reversed a said, "You're done." And he reversed a prophecy through the power of his faith prophecy through the power of his faith prophecy through the power of his faith and prayer. The sun moved back 10

and prayer. The sun moved back 10 and prayer. The sun moved back 10 degrees. That's how much power and faith degrees. That's how much power and faith degrees. That's how much power and faith he had. I don't know what happened he had. I don't know what happened he had. I don't know what happened between Isaiah 37, 38 and then chapter between Isaiah 37, 38 and then chapter between Isaiah 37, 38 and then chapter 39 where Hezekiah invites the 39 where Hezekiah invites the 39 where Hezekiah invites the Babylonians in, starts showing a man, Babylonians in, starts showing a man, Babylonians in, starts showing a man, "Look at everything that I've got. Look "Look at everything that I've got. Look "Look at everything that I've got. Look at not look what God's done, but look at at not look what God's done, but look at at not look what God's done, but look at everything that I've got. Look at my everything that I've got. Look at my everything that I've got. Look at my achievements, man." If we put it in achievements, man." If we put it in achievements, man." If we put it in modern day vernacular, "Look at my modern day vernacular, "Look at my modern day vernacular, "Look at my brand. Look at my followers. Look at my brand. Look at my followers. Look at my brand. Look at my followers. Look at my downloads. Look as if we had anything to downloads. Look as if we had anything to downloads. Look as if we had anything to do with any of this." He's like, "Look do with any of this." He's like, "Look do with any of this." He's like, "Look at it." And then when Isaiah comes and at it." And then when Isaiah comes and at it." And then when Isaiah comes and you know, prophesies obviously that you know, prophesies obviously that you know, prophesies obviously that this the your children are going to be this the your children are going to be this the your children are going to be taken into captivity, this is all over, taken into captivity, this is all over, taken into captivity, this is all over, Babylon's going to rule you. Now, you Babylon's going to rule you. Now, you Babylon's going to rule you. Now, you would think the same dude that got on would think the same dude that got on would think the same dude that got on his face in chapter 37 and 38 and his face in chapter 37 and 38 and his face in chapter 37 and 38 and prayed, and God then wiped out the prayed, and God then wiped out the prayed, and God then wiped out the Assyrians, and then God gave him his Assyrians, and then God gave him his Assyrians, and then God gave him his life an extra 15 years. You would think life an extra 15 years. You would think life an extra 15 years. You would think he would get back on his face and say, he would get back on his face and say, he would get back on his face and say, "I'm so sorry. You know, let's stop." "I'm so sorry. You know, let's stop." "I'm so sorry. You know, let's stop." No, no, no. But he says to me that the No, no, no. But he says to me that the No, no, no. But he says to me that the two saddest scriptures in the Bible, two saddest scriptures in the Bible, two saddest scriptures in the Bible, I'll tell you the second one in a I'll tell you the second one in a I'll tell you the second one in a minute. This is the saddest one in minute. This is the saddest one in minute. This is the saddest one in Isaiah 39 in Isaiah 39, where Hezekiah Isaiah 39 in Isaiah 39, where Hezekiah Isaiah 39 in Isaiah 39, where Hezekiah says, "The thing you have said to me is says, "The thing you have said to me is says, "The thing you have said to me is good." Because basically, the good." Because basically, the good." Because basically, the paraphrase, it's it's it doesn't in I'm paraphrase, it's it's it doesn't in I'm paraphrase, it's it's it doesn't in I'm going to die before it all happens.

going to die before it all happens. going to die before it all happens. >> be dead before the bad things happen. >> be dead before the bad things happen. >> be dead before the bad things happen. >> And I think that's what we have to be >> And I think that's what we have to be >> And I think that's what we have to be careful of. And I feel a lot of leaders careful of. And I feel a lot of leaders careful of. And I feel a lot of leaders are there. are there. are there. It's not on my watch. I'm just going to It's not on my watch. I'm just going to It's not on my watch. I'm just going to get my retirement, tap out. I stayed the get my retirement, tap out. I stayed the get my retirement, tap out. I stayed the distance. I didn't have distance. I didn't have distance. I didn't have I didn't have an affair. I didn't take I didn't have an affair. I didn't take I didn't have an affair. I didn't take the money. I'm going to I'm okay. I'm the money. I'm going to I'm okay. I'm the money. I'm going to I'm okay. I'm just going to you know, and I'm like, just going to you know, and I'm like, just going to you know, and I'm like, "Wow, that's not what we signed up for." "Wow, that's not what we signed up for." "Wow, that's not what we signed up for." So, that's to me a big thing. And the So, that's to me a big thing. And the So, that's to me a big thing. And the second saddest scripture in his is in second saddest scripture in his is in second saddest scripture in his is in Judges 2:10, where it says um Judges 2:10, where it says um Judges 2:10, where it says um when Joshua and his generation died, when Joshua and his generation died, when Joshua and his generation died, another generation arose that did not another generation arose that did not another generation arose that did not know the Lord nor the works he had done know the Lord nor the works he had done know the Lord nor the works he had done for Israel. So, as good as Joshua was, for Israel. So, as good as Joshua was, for Israel. So, as good as Joshua was, ultimately he failed because the thing ultimately he failed because the thing ultimately he failed because the thing is you can take all the promise What is you can take all the promise What is you can take all the promise What What is the big deal, truly, Carey, if What is the big deal, truly, Carey, if What is the big deal, truly, Carey, if if I build the biggest anti-trafficking if I build the biggest anti-trafficking if I build the biggest anti-trafficking organization, if I'm the chick preacher organization, if I'm the chick preacher organization, if I'm the chick preacher that's preached that's preached that's preached ultimately, ultimately, ultimately, big deal if I don't pass the baton of big deal if I don't pass the baton of big deal if I don't pass the baton of faith to a generation that won't run faith to a generation that won't run faith to a generation that won't run further, faster, harder, and know God further, faster, harder, and know God further, faster, harder, and know God more than me. And I think so many of us more than me. And I think so many of us more than me. And I think so many of us are so consumed with what's my legacy are so consumed with what's my legacy are so consumed with what's my legacy going to be. We don't need to leave one going to be. We don't need to leave one going to be. We don't need to leave one other than as Jude says, take the faith other than as Jude says, take the faith other than as Jude says, take the faith that's been passed on from generation to that's been passed on from generation to that's been passed on from generation to generation, and we pass that on to the generation, and we pass that on to the generation, and we pass that on to the next generation. Ultimately, next generation. Ultimately, next generation. Ultimately, that is more important than that is more important than that is more important than how many people did I preach to and how how many people did I preach to and how how many people did I preach to and how big was my social media following and big was my social media following and big was my social media following and how, you know, how effective was I in how, you know, how effective was I in how, you know, how effective was I in A21, whether the history books remember A21, whether the history books remember A21, whether the history books remember that or not. Truly is insignificant.

that or not. Truly is insignificant. that or not. Truly is insignificant. Whether the next generation knows Jesus Whether the next generation knows Jesus Whether the next generation knows Jesus or not, that's actually what matters. or not, that's actually what matters. or not, that's actually what matters. Is there any area of your life that you Is there any area of your life that you Is there any area of your life that you would say God is pruning you in right would say God is pruning you in right would say God is pruning you in right now, Christine? now, Christine? now, Christine? >> I am always in a pruning process. There >> I am always in a pruning process. There >> I am always in a pruning process. There is no doubt about it. There is no You is no doubt about it. There is no You is no doubt about it. There is no You know, um and for me, the residue uh know, um and for me, the residue uh know, um and for me, the residue uh carry from um carry from um carry from um just, you know, you being left in a just, you know, you being left in a just, you know, you being left in a hospital. I named and unwanted when I hospital. I named and unwanted when I hospital. I named and unwanted when I was born. Being, you know, finding out was born. Being, you know, finding out was born. Being, you know, finding out at 33 I was adopted. Going through many at 33 I was adopted. Going through many at 33 I was adopted. Going through many years of childhood sexual abuse. years of childhood sexual abuse. years of childhood sexual abuse. Jesus has healed me of so much and so Jesus has healed me of so much and so Jesus has healed me of so much and so much of what I do today is an overflow much of what I do today is an overflow much of what I do today is an overflow of that healing. of that healing. of that healing. Um Um Um but I find that the pruning that happens but I find that the pruning that happens but I find that the pruning that happens at different seasons of my life is at different seasons of my life is at different seasons of my life is always will will more often than always will will more often than always will will more often than professionally, it's going to be professionally, it's going to be professionally, it's going to be something internally in my heart that something internally in my heart that something internally in my heart that has to do with that. Now, the pruning has to do with that. Now, the pruning has to do with that. Now, the pruning that's happening and and it's it's sad that's happening and and it's it's sad that's happening and and it's it's sad in a way, in a way, in a way, is at 60, as I turn 60 this year, is at 60, as I turn 60 this year, is at 60, as I turn 60 this year, to not um it is to not um it is to not um it is When I say lonely isn't the word. I'm When I say lonely isn't the word. I'm When I say lonely isn't the word. I'm surrounded by awesome people. I I have surrounded by awesome people. I I have surrounded by awesome people. I I have great friends, marriage, but you know, great friends, marriage, but you know, great friends, marriage, but you know, when you first when you first when you first are in youth ministry and and they call are in youth ministry and and they call are in youth ministry and and they call you down the front, you know, if you you down the front, you know, if you you down the front, you know, if you want to serve Jesus, you know, you're a want to serve Jesus, you know, you're a want to serve Jesus, you know, you're a teenager, thousands are going forward.

teenager, thousands are going forward. teenager, thousands are going forward. Yes, you know, here I am, Lord. You're Yes, you know, here I am, Lord. You're Yes, you know, here I am, Lord. You're in your 20s, they have an altar call. in your 20s, they have an altar call. in your 20s, they have an altar call. Well, now, there's there's still Well, now, there's there's still Well, now, there's there's still hundreds. Here I am. We're all in this hundreds. Here I am. We're all in this hundreds. Here I am. We're all in this together. together. together. You get to 60, you look around, you go, You get to 60, you look around, you go, You get to 60, you look around, you go, where is everybody? You know all those where is everybody? You know all those where is everybody? You know all those people that we said we people that we said we people that we said we we didn't sign up to until, I don't we didn't sign up to until, I don't we didn't sign up to until, I don't know, I get the husband or until I get know, I get the husband or until I get know, I get the husband or until I get the house or until I get the business or the house or until I get the business or the house or until I get the business or until someone disappoints me in church. until someone disappoints me in church. until someone disappoints me in church. Like like I signed up till I die, kind Like like I signed up till I die, kind Like like I signed up till I die, kind of thing. So, it's my challenge here of thing. So, it's my challenge here of thing. So, it's my challenge here is is is you know, when I say not to settle, I you know, when I say not to settle, I you know, when I say not to settle, I could ride on the momentum of what the could ride on the momentum of what the could ride on the momentum of what the Lord's allowed me to do for the last 40 Lord's allowed me to do for the last 40 Lord's allowed me to do for the last 40 years and just pretty much if I don't do years and just pretty much if I don't do years and just pretty much if I don't do anything stupid, anything stupid, anything stupid, I could ride on that momentum and just I could ride on that momentum and just I could ride on that momentum and just go go go cruise it out for another couple of cruise it out for another couple of cruise it out for another couple of decades. You know, dial it in and I'm decades. You know, dial it in and I'm decades. You know, dial it in and I'm there. there. there. But to go even though some people that I But to go even though some people that I But to go even though some people that I love and admire so much around my age love and admire so much around my age love and admire so much around my age sort of sort of sort of more, you know, I just want to sit more, you know, I just want to sit more, you know, I just want to sit outside and look at the plants and you outside and look at the plants and you outside and look at the plants and you know, just take it easy kind of thing. know, just take it easy kind of thing. know, just take it easy kind of thing. To go, okay, that's okay for them, but I To go, okay, that's okay for them, but I To go, okay, that's okay for them, but I that's not what I'm called to. Jesus is that's not what I'm called to. Jesus is that's not what I'm called to. Jesus is still calling me on it takes a lot to still calling me on it takes a lot to still calling me on it takes a lot to dig down and go I'm going to keep going.

dig down and go I'm going to keep going. dig down and go I'm going to keep going. I'm not a 20-year-old anymore. I'm not a I'm not a 20-year-old anymore. I'm not a I'm not a 20-year-old anymore. I'm not a 30, I'm not even trying to be, but I'm 30, I'm not even trying to be, but I'm 30, I'm not even trying to be, but I'm not that. I'm not 20, 30, 40, or 50. So, not that. I'm not 20, 30, 40, or 50. So, not that. I'm not 20, 30, 40, or 50. So, I'm not in any of those age brackets. I'm not in any of those age brackets. I'm not in any of those age brackets. It's getting pretty thin in my age It's getting pretty thin in my age It's getting pretty thin in my age bracket. Um, bracket. Um, bracket. Um, what do you look like? There's not too what do you look like? There's not too what do you look like? There's not too many textbooks I can go and say what many textbooks I can go and say what many textbooks I can go and say what does it look like to be a woman of God does it look like to be a woman of God does it look like to be a woman of God at the forefront, you know, pioneering at the forefront, you know, pioneering at the forefront, you know, pioneering and keep going at 60 and keep going at 60 and keep going at 60 and not to listen to either both sides and not to listen to either both sides and not to listen to either both sides of the coin at my age. The narrative of of the coin at my age. The narrative of of the coin at my age. The narrative of try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay relevant, what whatever that try to stay relevant, what whatever that try to stay relevant, what whatever that means, or the whole anti-aging industry, means, or the whole anti-aging industry, means, or the whole anti-aging industry, you know, that whole That's the the you know, that whole That's the the you know, that whole That's the the whole anti-aging industry. Like, you whole anti-aging industry. Like, you whole anti-aging industry. Like, you know, just or the kind of like you're know, just or the kind of like you're know, just or the kind of like you're old and you're out to pasture industry. old and you're out to pasture industry. old and you're out to pasture industry. Like this it's one of the You're right. Like this it's one of the You're right. Like this it's one of the You're right. Where's the in between? Yeah, we're sort Where's the in between? Yeah, we're sort Where's the in between? Yeah, we're sort of somewhere going, okay, we're not the of somewhere going, okay, we're not the of somewhere going, okay, we're not the anti-aging people cuz I want to age anti-aging people cuz I want to age anti-aging people cuz I want to age gracefully and yet I want to be like gracefully and yet I want to be like gracefully and yet I want to be like Caleb who at 85 said, I'm as strong now Caleb who at 85 said, I'm as strong now Caleb who at 85 said, I'm as strong now as I was then. Moses promised me Hebron. as I was then. Moses promised me Hebron. as I was then. Moses promised me Hebron. Now, give me this mountain. Now, give me this mountain. Now, give me this mountain. >> that mountain? That's it. And so, I want >> that mountain? That's it. And so, I want >> that mountain? That's it. And so, I want to be that, to be that, to be that, but I'm but I'm but I'm surrounded surrounded surrounded by people that are not necessarily that by people that are not necessarily that by people that are not necessarily that at my age and stage and it's kind of at my age and stage and it's kind of at my age and stage and it's kind of some people that go, "Well, can't you some people that go, "Well, can't you some people that go, "Well, can't you let go?" And I'm like, "Well, yes. I'm let go?" And I'm like, "Well, yes. I'm let go?" And I'm like, "Well, yes. I'm not trying to be what I was, but I can't not trying to be what I was, but I can't not trying to be what I was, but I can't let go of Jesus. And if he's pulling me let go of Jesus. And if he's pulling me let go of Jesus. And if he's pulling me forward, so then you you you have that forward, so then you you you have that forward, so then you you you have that sort of thing of like sort of thing of like sort of thing of like some people thinking like, you know, you some people thinking like, you know, you some people thinking like, you know, you should get out of the way. And I'm like, should get out of the way. And I'm like, should get out of the way. And I'm like, get out of the way of what? I'm not in get out of the way of what? I'm not in get out of the way of what? I'm not in anyone's way. I mean, I'm doing what anyone's way. I mean, I'm doing what anyone's way. I mean, I'm doing what God's called me to do. So, you you just

God's called me to do. So, you you just God's called me to do. So, you you just have to again do what you tell have to again do what you tell have to again do what you tell 20-year-olds to do and 15-year-olds to 20-year-olds to do and 15-year-olds to 20-year-olds to do and 15-year-olds to do. Um you and Jesus have got to be so do. Um you and Jesus have got to be so do. Um you and Jesus have got to be so tight. And that pruning of the need for tight. And that pruning of the need for tight. And that pruning of the need for everyone to understand you or to approve everyone to understand you or to approve everyone to understand you or to approve of you of you of you um is is a pruning that consistently has um is is a pruning that consistently has um is is a pruning that consistently has to happen to say, "Okay, to happen to say, "Okay, to happen to say, "Okay, I can learn I can learn I can learn um some best practices and learn a lot um some best practices and learn a lot um some best practices and learn a lot from the literature on people my age, from the literature on people my age, from the literature on people my age, what our body does, and what a woman's what our body does, and what a woman's what our body does, and what a woman's body does, and all the hormonal thing body does, and all the hormonal thing body does, and all the hormonal thing and all the adjustments. And also, and all the adjustments. And also, and all the adjustments. And also, I can still walk in faith and believe I can still walk in faith and believe I can still walk in faith and believe that God can with his power and his that God can with his power and his that God can with his power and his strength that I can do exceedingly strength that I can do exceedingly strength that I can do exceedingly abundantly above and beyond anything I abundantly above and beyond anything I abundantly above and beyond anything I could ever ask people think or imagine. could ever ask people think or imagine. could ever ask people think or imagine. And um I can believe that, you know, my And um I can believe that, you know, my And um I can believe that, you know, my my my latter days can be greater than my my my latter days can be greater than my my my latter days can be greater than my former days. And that what's ahead of me former days. And that what's ahead of me former days. And that what's ahead of me um can have greater fruitfulness and I um can have greater fruitfulness and I um can have greater fruitfulness and I can flourish more than what's behind me. can flourish more than what's behind me. can flourish more than what's behind me. And so, you know, you but you're not And so, you know, you but you're not And so, you know, you but you're not going to have a whole lot of people at going to have a whole lot of people at going to have a whole lot of people at this age and stage cheerleading you this age and stage cheerleading you this age and stage cheerleading you there. You have just got to you and God there. You have just got to you and God there. You have just got to you and God have got to get that. And so, that need have got to get that. And so, that need have got to get that. And so, that need and for me it's always going to touch on and for me it's always going to touch on and for me it's always going to touch on a mothering wound. And as even my a mothering wound. And as even my a mothering wound. And as even my spiritual mother and certain people I spiritual mother and certain people I spiritual mother and certain people I mean, you just get older and you die.

mean, you just get older and you die. mean, you just get older and you die. That's it's you know, as George Bernard That's it's you know, as George Bernard That's it's you know, as George Bernard Shaw said, "Death is the ultimate Shaw said, "Death is the ultimate Shaw said, "Death is the ultimate statistic. One out of one will die." So, statistic. One out of one will die." So, statistic. One out of one will die." So, I'm just like people go, "Well, you I'm just like people go, "Well, you I'm just like people go, "Well, you know, I won't." I go, "Just live long know, I won't." I go, "Just live long know, I won't." I go, "Just live long enough, honey. You're going to. All of enough, honey. You're going to. All of enough, honey. You're going to. All of us are." So, the thing is that when the us are." So, the thing is that when the us are." So, the thing is that when the people a little bit further down the people a little bit further down the people a little bit further down the track from you are all dying, you're track from you are all dying, you're track from you are all dying, you're like, "I'm it." like, "I'm it." like, "I'm it." There's no that is is an interesting There's no that is is an interesting There's no that is is an interesting feeling going, "Oh, I am the spiritual feeling going, "Oh, I am the spiritual feeling going, "Oh, I am the spiritual mother now. I am that mother now. I am that mother now. I am that I I am that I am the adult in the room. I I am that I am the adult in the room. I I am that I am the adult in the room. This is like really scary. I'm like This is like really scary. I'm like This is like really scary. I'm like Jesus, you need to come back because I Jesus, you need to come back because I Jesus, you need to come back because I am becoming the adult in the room and am becoming the adult in the room and am becoming the adult in the room and this is really scary. this is really scary. this is really scary. No, it's so funny. I I feel like I went No, it's so funny. I I feel like I went No, it's so funny. I I feel like I went from the young upstart leader to the from the young upstart leader to the from the young upstart leader to the sage in about 20 minutes. I don't I sage in about 20 minutes. I don't I sage in about 20 minutes. I don't I don't know how it happened that quickly. don't know how it happened that quickly. don't know how it happened that quickly. It was 20 years, but it felt like 20 It was 20 years, but it felt like 20 It was 20 years, but it felt like 20 minutes. So, I get it. Well, the new minutes. So, I get it. Well, the new minutes. So, I get it. Well, the new book is called The Faith to Flourish. book is called The Faith to Flourish. book is called The Faith to Flourish. It's available everywhere you get books. It's available everywhere you get books. It's available everywhere you get books. I enjoyed it a lot. Is there anything I enjoyed it a lot. Is there anything I enjoyed it a lot. Is there anything Christine that Christine that Christine that we didn't touch on that you want to we didn't touch on that you want to we didn't touch on that you want to touch on before you wrap up today?

touch on before you wrap up today? touch on before you wrap up today? Not other than to say, you know, whether Not other than to say, you know, whether Not other than to say, you know, whether you're younger and broken. I mean, when you're younger and broken. I mean, when you're younger and broken. I mean, when I was first dealing with all the stuff, I was first dealing with all the stuff, I was first dealing with all the stuff, the abuse, the abandonment, the the abuse, the abandonment, the the abuse, the abandonment, the I needed someone to tell me I could I needed someone to tell me I could I needed someone to tell me I could flourish. I and I think and before when flourish. I and I think and before when flourish. I and I think and before when you asked me that question about the you asked me that question about the you asked me that question about the therapeutic culture, therapeutic culture, therapeutic culture, a lot of the narrative in our culture is a lot of the narrative in our culture is a lot of the narrative in our culture is a is a victim narrative that almost has a is a victim narrative that almost has a is a victim narrative that almost has you parking your pain and your trauma as you parking your pain and your trauma as you parking your pain and your trauma as the end point. Right. I am my labels. I the end point. Right. I am my labels. I the end point. Right. I am my labels. I am my diagnosis. am my diagnosis. am my diagnosis. >> guess I'm saying that no, no. Um, >> guess I'm saying that no, no. Um, >> guess I'm saying that no, no. Um, that you you could see God's got a whole that you you could see God's got a whole that you you could see God's got a whole lot more for you and I it's been about lot more for you and I it's been about lot more for you and I it's been about 10 years since we've had those 10 years since we've had those 10 years since we've had those conversations again. No, you can conversations again. No, you can conversations again. No, you can flourish. You can overcome. Jesus can flourish. You can overcome. Jesus can flourish. You can overcome. Jesus can heal and thank God we've got a whole lot heal and thank God we've got a whole lot heal and thank God we've got a whole lot of tools to help us, but the end goal is of tools to help us, but the end goal is of tools to help us, but the end goal is flourishing, not just surviving. You can flourishing, not just surviving. You can flourishing, not just surviving. You can thrive and hopefully through my past I I thrive and hopefully through my past I I thrive and hopefully through my past I I I've lived now long enough to testify to I've lived now long enough to testify to I've lived now long enough to testify to that. That you know, that it's it's not that. That you know, that it's it's not that. That you know, that it's it's not just a I'm not just giving you a story just a I'm not just giving you a story just a I'm not just giving you a story of my life. There's a testimony that of my life. There's a testimony that of my life. There's a testimony that this thing really does work. So, whether this thing really does work. So, whether this thing really does work. So, whether you're broken you're broken you're broken and then of course in those in between and then of course in those in between and then of course in those in between years of what is it? And I guess if I'm years of what is it? And I guess if I'm years of what is it? And I guess if I'm talking to women that you got babies and talking to women that you got babies and talking to women that you got babies and life what is it to flourish in the midst life what is it to flourish in the midst life what is it to flourish in the midst of all of that when life is going crazy?

of all of that when life is going crazy? of all of that when life is going crazy? If you're single and you're going, what If you're single and you're going, what If you're single and you're going, what does it look like when all the church does it look like when all the church does it look like when all the church says is you've got to get married and says is you've got to get married and says is you've got to get married and have kids, and I'm not? What is it to have kids, and I'm not? What is it to have kids, and I'm not? What is it to flourish?" I mean, all of these things flourish?" I mean, all of these things flourish?" I mean, all of these things are what I'm addressing. And And I are what I'm addressing. And And I are what I'm addressing. And And I really do have a really do have a really do have a a strong section. I mean, I've written a strong section. I mean, I've written a strong section. I mean, I've written about the Holy Spirit in a way that I've about the Holy Spirit in a way that I've about the Holy Spirit in a way that I've never written in two chapters of the never written in two chapters of the never written in two chapters of the book because I just I think a whole lot book because I just I think a whole lot book because I just I think a whole lot of us max locate a whole lot of us are of us max locate a whole lot of us are of us max locate a whole lot of us are just like, "Guys, we've got to tell you just like, "Guys, we've got to tell you just like, "Guys, we've got to tell you what the secret sauce is." It's like, what the secret sauce is." It's like, what the secret sauce is." It's like, you know, "This is it." And so, I really you know, "This is it." And so, I really you know, "This is it." And so, I really did, with great intentionality, in ways did, with great intentionality, in ways did, with great intentionality, in ways I haven't ever, in any of my talked I haven't ever, in any of my talked I haven't ever, in any of my talked about that in this book because it's about that in this book because it's about that in this book because it's like that is the key. like that is the key. like that is the key. The empowerment of the Spirit of God. The empowerment of the Spirit of God. The empowerment of the Spirit of God. And what does that look like practically And what does that look like practically And what does that look like practically and theologically? So, I I went there. and theologically? So, I I went there. and theologically? So, I I went there. And then also, I do want to speak to And then also, I do want to speak to And then also, I do want to speak to people my age and go, "Please, our people my age and go, "Please, our people my age and go, "Please, our generation needs you to not stop. We generation needs you to not stop. We generation needs you to not stop. We need to keep going." need to keep going." need to keep going." >> Yeah, and I think your point about not a >> Yeah, and I think your point about not a >> Yeah, and I think your point about not a lot of mentors, particularly for women, lot of mentors, particularly for women, lot of mentors, particularly for women, around that, you know, late 30s to around that, you know, late 30s to around that, you know, late 30s to mid-40s, that can be an encouragement mid-40s, that can be an encouragement mid-40s, that can be an encouragement cuz we do have a lot of young leaders cuz we do have a lot of young leaders cuz we do have a lot of young leaders listening. Like, hang in there. Don't listening. Like, hang in there. Don't listening. Like, hang in there. Don't quit. Don't give up. If you're called to quit. Don't give up. If you're called to quit. Don't give up. If you're called to something else, great. Not going to something else, great. Not going to something else, great. Not going to fight you. But a lot of people, they fight you. But a lot of people, they fight you. But a lot of people, they leave not because they're called leave not because they're called leave not because they're called elsewhere, but because they think, "I elsewhere, but because they think, "I elsewhere, but because they think, "I can't do this anymore." And I think your can't do this anymore." And I think your can't do this anymore." And I think your book's going to be a real encouragement book's going to be a real encouragement book's going to be a real encouragement to people. It's called The Faith to to people. It's called The Faith to to people. It's called The Faith to Flourish. It's available everywhere.

Flourish. It's available everywhere. Flourish. It's available everywhere. Chris, if people want to track with you Chris, if people want to track with you Chris, if people want to track with you online, where's the easiest place to online, where's the easiest place to online, where's the easiest place to find you? Um I'm on all the things, but find you? Um I'm on all the things, but find you? Um I'm on all the things, but probably just I Instagram is the thing I probably just I Instagram is the thing I probably just I Instagram is the thing I look at most. So, you know, just Chris look at most. So, you know, just Chris look at most. So, you know, just Chris Hill. Hill. Hill. >> too. You can find >> too. You can find >> too. You can find There it is. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll link to All right. Well, we'll link to All right. Well, we'll link to everything in the show notes. Man, I everything in the show notes. Man, I everything in the show notes. Man, I didn't get to most of my notes, but didn't get to most of my notes, but didn't get to most of my notes, but that's a sign of a great conversation. that's a sign of a great conversation. that's a sign of a great conversation. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Carey. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Carey. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Carey. And thank you for this podcast. I mean, And thank you for this podcast. I mean, And thank you for this podcast. I mean, I'm I'm one of your avid listeners, and I'm I'm one of your avid listeners, and I'm I'm one of your avid listeners, and I just thank God. It's miraculous what I just thank God. It's miraculous what I just thank God. It's miraculous what he's done with this. It really is. he's done with this. It really is. he's done with this. It really is. >> It is crazy, man. I'm still in the >> It is crazy, man. I'm still in the >> It is crazy, man. I'm still in the basement where I started it. Well, basement where I started it. Well, basement where I started it. Well, actually, it was in an upper floor actually, it was in an upper floor actually, it was in an upper floor office in my house, but yeah, it's nuts. office in my house, but yeah, it's nuts. office in my house, but yeah, it's nuts. But that, as you say, is the But that, as you say, is the But that, as you say, is the faithfulness of God. faithfulness of God. faithfulness of God. To think that this has the footprint by To think that this has the footprint by To think that this has the footprint by the grace of God that it does, the the grace of God that it does, the the grace of God that it does, the influence with our generation and influence with our generation and influence with our generation and younger generations younger generations younger generations is is is pretty I'm very thankful and surprised pretty I'm very thankful and surprised pretty I'm very thankful and surprised on a regular basis, but people like you on a regular basis, but people like you on a regular basis, but people like you make it good and so thank you so much make it good and so thank you so much make it good and so thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and until for coming back on the podcast and until for coming back on the podcast and until next time next time next time I'm really grateful, Christine. Thank I'm really grateful, Christine. Thank I'm really grateful, Christine. Thank you.

you. you. >> Thanks, Mike. Thank you so much. Man, I >> Thanks, Mike. Thank you so much. Man, I >> Thanks, Mike. Thank you so much. Man, I told you that one didn't disappoint. I told you that one didn't disappoint. I told you that one didn't disappoint. I mean, we went everywhere and we could mean, we went everywhere and we could mean, we went everywhere and we could have got a lot longer, but I know have got a lot longer, but I know have got a lot longer, but I know you've got time limits, too, and we'll you've got time limits, too, and we'll you've got time limits, too, and we'll have Christine back again in the future. have Christine back again in the future. have Christine back again in the future. So, hopefully that was really helpful to So, hopefully that was really helpful to So, hopefully that was really helpful to you. I would love to hear from you in you. I would love to hear from you in you. I would love to hear from you in the comments. You know the best place to the comments. You know the best place to the comments. You know the best place to leave a comment? Not only where you leave a comment? Not only where you leave a comment? Not only where you listen to this podcast, but inside the listen to this podcast, but inside the listen to this podcast, but inside the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where Art of Leadership Academy. That's where Art of Leadership Academy. That's where you're going to find the show notes. So, you're going to find the show notes. So, you're going to find the show notes. So, if you go to the Art of Leadership if you go to the Art of Leadership if you go to the Art of Leadership Academy.com, join over 18, probably Academy.com, join over 18, probably Academy.com, join over 18, probably 20,000 leaders by the time you hear this 20,000 leaders by the time you hear this 20,000 leaders by the time you hear this who are now part of the Art of who are now part of the Art of who are now part of the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join for Leadership Academy. You can join for Leadership Academy. You can join for free today. We have some amazing free today. We have some amazing free today. We have some amazing discussions on all of these episodes discussions on all of these episodes discussions on all of these episodes inside the Academy. inside the Academy. inside the Academy. 20,000 church leaders inside the 20,000 church leaders inside the 20,000 church leaders inside the Academy. Next episode, we have Jon Acuff Academy. Next episode, we have Jon Acuff Academy. Next episode, we have Jon Acuff also coming up. We have Todd Wilson. also coming up. We have Todd Wilson. also coming up. We have Todd Wilson. We've also got Robbie Gallaty and a We've also got Robbie Gallaty and a We've also got Robbie Gallaty and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. whole lot more coming up on the podcast. whole lot more coming up on the podcast. If you are enjoying this episode, please If you are enjoying this episode, please If you are enjoying this episode, please leave a rating and review. We would love leave a rating and review. We would love leave a rating and review. We would love that. Maybe share it with a friend as that. Maybe share it with a friend as that. Maybe share it with a friend as well and I hope this episode helped you well and I hope this episode helped you well and I hope this episode helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.