Preaching Through Controversial Topics + What White and Black Preachers Can Learn From Each Other

All right. So, now I might be too bold, All right. So, now I might be too bold, but I'm going to say it. I've seen but I'm going to say it. I've seen but I'm going to say it. I've seen people walk from this church, from the people walk from this church, from the people walk from this church, from the Progressive Baptist Church, who were Progressive Baptist Church, who were Progressive Baptist Church, who were giving hundreds of thousands of dollars giving hundreds of thousands of dollars giving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I'm not talking about like as a a year. I'm not talking about like as a a year. I'm not talking about like as a group. I mean a few folk and they left. group. I mean a few folk and they left. group. I mean a few folk and they left. God replaced. God replaced. God replaced. >> They were mad at you. >> They were mad at you. >> They were mad at you. >> Oh, yeah. Cuz they were mad at something >> Oh, yeah. Cuz they were mad at something >> Oh, yeah. Cuz they were mad at something I said. And and let me tell you, I'm not I said. And and let me tell you, I'm not I said. And and let me tell you, I'm not sitting here like the day that they told sitting here like the day that they told sitting here like the day that they told me they were leaving that I was happy. me they were leaving that I was happy. me they were leaving that I was happy. No, I probably laid down on the couch No, I probably laid down on the couch No, I probably laid down on the couch for about three hours. And and then uh for about three hours. And and then uh for about three hours. And and then uh Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at Eastern Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at Eastern Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at Eastern Star in Indianapolis. He said to me, Star in Indianapolis. He said to me, Star in Indianapolis. He said to me, "Charlie, the money comes from God." He "Charlie, the money comes from God." He "Charlie, the money comes from God." He said, "It does not come from the said, "It does not come from the said, "It does not come from the people." people." people." >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Man, my conversation Leadership Podcast. Man, my conversation Leadership Podcast. Man, my conversation with Charlie dates. We've been uh this with Charlie dates. We've been uh this with Charlie dates. We've been uh this been about a year in the making, but we been about a year in the making, but we been about a year in the making, but we finally were able to get together. We finally were able to get together. We finally were able to get together. We talk about how to preach through talk about how to preach through talk about how to preach through controversial topics. You know, the ones controversial topics. You know, the ones controversial topics. You know, the ones you're afraid to cuz people are going to you're afraid to cuz people are going to you're afraid to cuz people are going to storm out of your church or you're going storm out of your church or you're going storm out of your church or you're going to get cancelled or you'll get fired.

to get cancelled or you'll get fired. to get cancelled or you'll get fired. Well, what does it take for courage? Well, what does it take for courage? Well, what does it take for courage? Charlie is so good at that. He breaks Charlie is so good at that. He breaks Charlie is so good at that. He breaks down his whole preaching process. Widely down his whole preaching process. Widely down his whole preaching process. Widely considered to be one of the top considered to be one of the top considered to be one of the top preachers in America today. We talk preachers in America today. We talk preachers in America today. We talk about what white preachers and black about what white preachers and black about what white preachers and black preachers can learn from each other and preachers can learn from each other and preachers can learn from each other and also preaching. So, a dead room wakes also preaching. So, a dead room wakes also preaching. So, a dead room wakes up. All right, we're going to have a lot up. All right, we're going to have a lot up. All right, we're going to have a lot of fun on this podcast and also talk of fun on this podcast and also talk of fun on this podcast and also talk about some really important topics. about some really important topics. about some really important topics. Welcome if you're with us for the very Welcome if you're with us for the very Welcome if you're with us for the very first time. And for all of you who are first time. And for all of you who are first time. And for all of you who are regulars, so glad you're here. If you regulars, so glad you're here. If you regulars, so glad you're here. If you haven't yet subscribed, hit follow or haven't yet subscribed, hit follow or haven't yet subscribed, hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching, subscribe wherever you're watching, subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening, you'll never wherever you're listening, you'll never wherever you're listening, you'll never miss an episode. And we got show notes miss an episode. And we got show notes miss an episode. And we got show notes for you, too. You can find them inside for you, too. You can find them inside for you, too. You can find them inside my Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to my Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to my Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to the arttoofleershipacademy.com. the arttoofleershipacademy.com. the arttoofleershipacademy.com. The Reverend Dr. Charlie Edward Dates The Reverend Dr. Charlie Edward Dates The Reverend Dr. Charlie Edward Dates serves as senior pastor of both serves as senior pastor of both serves as senior pastor of both progressive and Salem Baptist churches progressive and Salem Baptist churches progressive and Salem Baptist churches of Chicago. We'll explain why. He's a of Chicago. We'll explain why. He's a of Chicago. We'll explain why. He's a dynamic preacher, scholar, and civic dynamic preacher, scholar, and civic dynamic preacher, scholar, and civic leader. His ministry unites people of leader. His ministry unites people of leader. His ministry unites people of all ages and backgrounds through clear all ages and backgrounds through clear all ages and backgrounds through clear and compelling proclamation of the and compelling proclamation of the and compelling proclamation of the gospel. He is the founder of the Black gospel. He is the founder of the Black gospel. He is the founder of the Black Boy Literacy Campaign, which we cover Boy Literacy Campaign, which we cover Boy Literacy Campaign, which we cover the spend in the Black Commerce Corridor the spend in the Black Commerce Corridor the spend in the Black Commerce Corridor and the Progressive Center for and the Progressive Center for and the Progressive Center for Counseling and Justice. He mentors and Counseling and Justice. He mentors and Counseling and Justice. He mentors and equips preachers worldwide, serves as equips preachers worldwide, serves as equips preachers worldwide, serves as co-chair of the preaching institute at co-chair of the preaching institute at co-chair of the preaching institute at Wheaton College, Billy Graham Center, Wheaton College, Billy Graham Center, Wheaton College, Billy Graham Center, and teaches preaching at Baylor and teaches preaching at Baylor and teaches preaching at Baylor University's Truit Theological Seminary.

University's Truit Theological Seminary. University's Truit Theological Seminary. And in his spare time, I think he sleeps And in his spare time, I think he sleeps And in his spare time, I think he sleeps anyway. I don't know. The guy has got so anyway. I don't know. The guy has got so anyway. I don't know. The guy has got so much on the go. My conversation with the much on the go. My conversation with the much on the go. My conversation with the wonderful Charlie Dates. Charlie, this wonderful Charlie Dates. Charlie, this wonderful Charlie Dates. Charlie, this is a treat. We have uh taken a little is a treat. We have uh taken a little is a treat. We have uh taken a little while to set this up, but it's a thrill while to set this up, but it's a thrill while to set this up, but it's a thrill to have you on. to have you on. to have you on. >> Thank you for making room for me. And as >> Thank you for making room for me. And as >> Thank you for making room for me. And as I said to you privately, the world needs I said to you privately, the world needs I said to you privately, the world needs notice about you. You're one of the notice about you. You're one of the notice about you. You're one of the kindest guys. Yeah. Which lets me know kindest guys. Yeah. Which lets me know kindest guys. Yeah. Which lets me know the fruit of the spirit is at work uh in the fruit of the spirit is at work uh in the fruit of the spirit is at work uh in your heart, but it's not lost on me that your heart, but it's not lost on me that your heart, but it's not lost on me that your kindness is so strong. your kindness is so strong. your kindness is so strong. >> That that that really moves my heart >> That that that really moves my heart >> That that that really moves my heart because I'm an anyagram 8 in recovery. because I'm an anyagram 8 in recovery. because I'm an anyagram 8 in recovery. So I appreciate it. The Holy Spirit may So I appreciate it. The Holy Spirit may So I appreciate it. The Holy Spirit may have been doing a little bit of work. So have been doing a little bit of work. So have been doing a little bit of work. So >> recovery. I mean, when I first heard >> recovery. I mean, when I first heard >> recovery. I mean, when I first heard your name, it was people telling me your name, it was people telling me your name, it was people telling me Charlie dates, one of the best preachers Charlie dates, one of the best preachers Charlie dates, one of the best preachers alive, period. And that was years ago. alive, period. And that was years ago. alive, period. And that was years ago. >> And um I want to know how did you first >> And um I want to know how did you first >> And um I want to know how did you first like feel a call to ministry and know like feel a call to ministry and know like feel a call to ministry and know that, hey, I think I'm going to be a that, hey, I think I'm going to be a that, hey, I think I'm going to be a preacher. preacher. preacher. >> So, I think I was four. I'm sitting in >> So, I think I was four. I'm sitting in >> So, I think I was four. I'm sitting in the back of church on a Sunday night. We the back of church on a Sunday night. We the back of church on a Sunday night. We used to have church on Sunday nights used to have church on Sunday nights used to have church on Sunday nights back then. in Chicago, the Mount Calvary back then. in Chicago, the Mount Calvary back then. in Chicago, the Mount Calvary Baptist Church, 1257 West 111 Street, Baptist Church, 1257 West 111 Street, Baptist Church, 1257 West 111 Street, Chicago, Illinois. And I have this Chicago, Illinois. And I have this Chicago, Illinois. And I have this profound sense that what I see happening profound sense that what I see happening profound sense that what I see happening at church is exactly what I'm supposed at church is exactly what I'm supposed at church is exactly what I'm supposed to do. And so, um, I know no other way to do. And so, um, I know no other way to do. And so, um, I know no other way to say it other than, you know, how Paul to say it other than, you know, how Paul to say it other than, you know, how Paul says to Timothy, uh, I'm convinced that

says to Timothy, uh, I'm convinced that says to Timothy, uh, I'm convinced that that which dwelt in your grandmother and that which dwelt in your grandmother and that which dwelt in your grandmother and your mother now lives in you. It's not a your mother now lives in you. It's not a your mother now lives in you. It's not a transference of faith, but it is transference of faith, but it is transference of faith, but it is certainly certainly certainly >> like the generations of my folks who >> like the generations of my folks who >> like the generations of my folks who believe something happened in the way believe something happened in the way believe something happened in the way that I was nurtured and raised that met that I was nurtured and raised that met that I was nurtured and raised that met with the call of God. I fundamentally with the call of God. I fundamentally with the call of God. I fundamentally carry belief and calling meaning I don't carry belief and calling meaning I don't carry belief and calling meaning I don't think people should preach if they've think people should preach if they've think people should preach if they've not been called. That's just me. And so not been called. That's just me. And so not been called. That's just me. And so I would go probably six, seven or eight I would go probably six, seven or eight I would go probably six, seven or eight up to the pastor when church was over. up to the pastor when church was over. up to the pastor when church was over. Then now going back to the morning Then now going back to the morning Then now going back to the morning service, we had kids church downstairs. service, we had kids church downstairs. service, we had kids church downstairs. I go up when church is over. I'd race to I go up when church is over. I'd race to I go up when church is over. I'd race to the pull pit. I pull on this coat. I the pull pit. I pull on this coat. I the pull pit. I pull on this coat. I say, "Hey, man. When are you going to say, "Hey, man. When are you going to say, "Hey, man. When are you going to let me preach?" let me preach?" let me preach?" At At At >> six, seven, eight years old. >> six, seven, eight years old. >> six, seven, eight years old. >> I'm telling you. And he was he was so >> I'm telling you. And he was he was so >> I'm telling you. And he was he was so kind to me. He would say, "Oh, Brother kind to me. He would say, "Oh, Brother kind to me. He would say, "Oh, Brother Dace, one of these weeks, you know, we Dace, one of these weeks, you know, we Dace, one of these weeks, you know, we we're going to do it." But that never we're going to do it." But that never we're going to do it." But that never left me. I should say to you, I tried to left me. I should say to you, I tried to left me. I should say to you, I tried to shake it. I was in undergrad uh probably shake it. I was in undergrad uh probably shake it. I was in undergrad uh probably 20 years old and about to finish and I 20 years old and about to finish and I 20 years old and about to finish and I didn't want to be abused as a pastor. So didn't want to be abused as a pastor. So didn't want to be abused as a pastor. So we give a lot of attention to people we give a lot of attention to people we give a lot of attention to people who've been abused by and I and who've been abused by and I and who've been abused by and I and rightfully so.

rightfully so. rightfully so. >> But we rarely talk about the pastors at >> But we rarely talk about the pastors at >> But we rarely talk about the pastors at like who've been abused by the people. like who've been abused by the people. like who've been abused by the people. So I didn't want that. So I was trying So I didn't want that. So I was trying So I didn't want that. So I was trying to broker a deal with God. I got a full to broker a deal with God. I got a full to broker a deal with God. I got a full ride to do a master's in human resource ride to do a master's in human resource ride to do a master's in human resource management and industrial relations and management and industrial relations and management and industrial relations and then a jurist doctorate on the back then a jurist doctorate on the back then a jurist doctorate on the back side. I want to be a contract side. I want to be a contract side. I want to be a contract negotiator. So I was like, "Lord, I'll negotiator. So I was like, "Lord, I'll negotiator. So I was like, "Lord, I'll be the best help that a pastor has ever be the best help that a pastor has ever be the best help that a pastor has ever had if you let me do this. Like I can had if you let me do this. Like I can had if you let me do this. Like I can make money. I could like raise a make money. I could like raise a make money. I could like raise a family." family." family." >> And man, Carrie, I couldn't sleep at >> And man, Carrie, I couldn't sleep at >> And man, Carrie, I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't I mean, I would I night. I couldn't I mean, I would I night. I couldn't I mean, I would I would get up and I would walk the campus would get up and I would walk the campus would get up and I would walk the campus at the University of Illinois at Arbana, at the University of Illinois at Arbana, at the University of Illinois at Arbana, for the people who watch this, down for the people who watch this, down for the people who watch this, down Florida Avenue between Lincoln and Florida Avenue between Lincoln and Florida Avenue between Lincoln and Racing. I I mean, late at night just Racing. I I mean, late at night just Racing. I I mean, late at night just saying, "God, are why like must I?" And saying, "God, are why like must I?" And saying, "God, are why like must I?" And so my whole life I felt called to it. so my whole life I felt called to it. so my whole life I felt called to it. But at one point, I just tried to But at one point, I just tried to But at one point, I just tried to negotiate and it didn't work out. And so negotiate and it didn't work out. And so negotiate and it didn't work out. And so if there's any good, and I say this from if there's any good, and I say this from if there's any good, and I say this from the bottom of my heart, if there's any the bottom of my heart, if there's any the bottom of my heart, if there's any good that comes from my ministry, it's good that comes from my ministry, it's good that comes from my ministry, it's cuz I've been called cuz I've been called cuz I've been called >> and it's God would not let me let me do >> and it's God would not let me let me do >> and it's God would not let me let me do anything else.

anything else. anything else. >> Well, two things. Let's start here. Four >> Well, two things. Let's start here. Four >> Well, two things. Let's start here. Four is pretty young. is pretty young. is pretty young. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> I mean, for a four-year-old, you're >> I mean, for a four-year-old, you're >> I mean, for a four-year-old, you're usually thinking like, what am I going usually thinking like, what am I going usually thinking like, what am I going to watch when I get home on TV? or to watch when I get home on TV? or to watch when I get home on TV? or where's my friend or when's the service where's my friend or when's the service where's my friend or when's the service going to be over so I can play. going to be over so I can play. going to be over so I can play. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I'm curious because I don't think I've >> I'm curious because I don't think I've >> I'm curious because I don't think I've heard a call story that young. What What heard a call story that young. What What heard a call story that young. What What was that like? was that like? was that like? >> I think church was my play. I think >> I think church was my play. I think >> I think church was my play. I think church was my play. church was my play. church was my play. So my grandmother built me a pull pit So my grandmother built me a pull pit So my grandmother built me a pull pit when I was when I was when I was probably second grade because I used to probably second grade because I used to probably second grade because I used to line up all of the stuff in the living line up all of the stuff in the living line up all of the stuff in the living room and I I would ask her and my cousin room and I I would ask her and my cousin room and I I would ask her and my cousin and I would make my brother be my and I would make my brother be my and I would make my brother be my congregation. So I would do this like congregation. So I would do this like congregation. So I would do this like with like a bucket, you know, and open with like a bucket, you know, and open with like a bucket, you know, and open the Bible and I would go for it. And so the Bible and I would go for it. And so the Bible and I would go for it. And so she said finally, "No, we going to build she said finally, "No, we going to build she said finally, "No, we going to build your pullpit." And she built me a white your pullpit." And she built me a white your pullpit." And she built me a white pullpit, man. and uh like handcrafted pullpit, man. and uh like handcrafted pullpit, man. and uh like handcrafted carpenter kind of thing. And that was my carpenter kind of thing. And that was my carpenter kind of thing. And that was my first time preaching from a pull pit was first time preaching from a pull pit was first time preaching from a pull pit was in the house. And so maybe when you say in the house. And so maybe when you say in the house. And so maybe when you say like a kid's thinking about when am I like a kid's thinking about when am I like a kid's thinking about when am I going to play, what am I going to do? I going to play, what am I going to do? I going to play, what am I going to do? I had a normal childhood. I mean I played had a normal childhood. I mean I played had a normal childhood. I mean I played NBA Jams and I Mario Kart and you know NBA Jams and I Mario Kart and you know NBA Jams and I Mario Kart and you know loved it when we got all of that stuff.

loved it when we got all of that stuff. loved it when we got all of that stuff. But but if I had a chance, I was going But but if I had a chance, I was going But but if I had a chance, I was going to try to convince somebody about Jesus. to try to convince somebody about Jesus. to try to convince somebody about Jesus. Even if I didn't know all of what there Even if I didn't know all of what there Even if I didn't know all of what there was to say, I would preach to my was to say, I would preach to my was to say, I would preach to my grandmother's guests like when they grandmother's guests like when they grandmother's guests like when they would come over and um drinking a would come over and um drinking a would come over and um drinking a beverage, doing whatever, and I just I'd beverage, doing whatever, and I just I'd beverage, doing whatever, and I just I'd start a Bible conversation. All I know, start a Bible conversation. All I know, start a Bible conversation. All I know, >> man. Oh man. So some kids I I can see it >> man. Oh man. So some kids I I can see it >> man. Oh man. So some kids I I can see it now. Some kids want to be rock stars. I now. Some kids want to be rock stars. I now. Some kids want to be rock stars. I mean, your pulpit was the equivalent of mean, your pulpit was the equivalent of mean, your pulpit was the equivalent of the guitar they got when they were five the guitar they got when they were five the guitar they got when they were five or six. It was it brother. I wish we had or six. It was it brother. I wish we had or six. It was it brother. I wish we had it. it. it. >> Who were your heroes growing up like >> Who were your heroes growing up like >> Who were your heroes growing up like preachers? preachers? preachers? >> Yeah. So maybe some who were thinkers >> Yeah. So maybe some who were thinkers >> Yeah. So maybe some who were thinkers who I deem as very preacherly minds who I deem as very preacherly minds who I deem as very preacherly minds um my mind goes there first. Frederick um my mind goes there first. Frederick um my mind goes there first. Frederick Douglas Douglas Douglas >> um and who was an ardent Christian and >> um and who was an ardent Christian and >> um and who was an ardent Christian and when you read his autobiography when you read his autobiography when you read his autobiography seems like he's an opponent of our seems like he's an opponent of our seems like he's an opponent of our religion but he explains that in in the religion but he explains that in in the religion but he explains that in in the appendix appendix appendix WB the boys.

WB the boys. WB the boys. >> Yeah. So, I remember reading this I I >> Yeah. So, I remember reading this I I >> Yeah. So, I remember reading this I I was raised in a context. I went to a was raised in a context. I went to a was raised in a context. I went to a Christian elementary school, two of them Christian elementary school, two of them Christian elementary school, two of them in Chicago. They were owned and operated in Chicago. They were owned and operated in Chicago. They were owned and operated by black churches. by black churches. by black churches. >> And we learned probably about fourth >> And we learned probably about fourth >> And we learned probably about fourth grade, fourth or fifth grade, the grade, fourth or fifth grade, the grade, fourth or fifth grade, the argument between Web and Booker T. And argument between Web and Booker T. And argument between Web and Booker T. And so I had to pick a side. And I remember so I had to pick a side. And I remember so I had to pick a side. And I remember picking web side. So I remember reading picking web side. So I remember reading picking web side. So I remember reading the voice. I remember again the souls of the voice. I remember again the souls of the voice. I remember again the souls of black folk like early on. and and then black folk like early on. and and then black folk like early on. and and then when you move to the pull pit, you have when you move to the pull pit, you have when you move to the pull pit, you have a range of voices. So I consider myself a range of voices. So I consider myself a range of voices. So I consider myself bentecostal. Um the Reverend Dr. Gardner bentecostal. Um the Reverend Dr. Gardner bentecostal. Um the Reverend Dr. Gardner Calvin Taylor, a name that belongs to Calvin Taylor, a name that belongs to Calvin Taylor, a name that belongs to the ages, Pastor Conquered Church in the ages, Pastor Conquered Church in the ages, Pastor Conquered Church in Brooklyn. That great trio with William Brooklyn. That great trio with William Brooklyn. That great trio with William Augustus Jones and Sandy Ray. Gardner Augustus Jones and Sandy Ray. Gardner Augustus Jones and Sandy Ray. Gardner Taylor, those are Gardenner Taylor's my Taylor, those are Gardenner Taylor's my Taylor, those are Gardenner Taylor's my guy. Uh Gardner Taylor though is like guy. Uh Gardner Taylor though is like guy. Uh Gardner Taylor though is like the little brother of the Reverend Dr.

the little brother of the Reverend Dr. the little brother of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. So King is kind Martin Luther King Jr. So King is kind Martin Luther King Jr. So King is kind of coaching Gardner Taylor in his of coaching Gardner Taylor in his of coaching Gardner Taylor in his preaching. Taylor has this wonderful preaching. Taylor has this wonderful preaching. Taylor has this wonderful nexus now that I think about it. Carrie nexus now that I think about it. Carrie nexus now that I think about it. Carrie >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> between a kind of lofty >> between a kind of lofty >> between a kind of lofty exogetical narrative kind of preaching exogetical narrative kind of preaching exogetical narrative kind of preaching combined with a social emphasis. combined with a social emphasis. combined with a social emphasis. He was the old golden mouth and and that He was the old golden mouth and and that He was the old golden mouth and and that that latched on to me. Um but I would that latched on to me. Um but I would that latched on to me. Um but I would also say also say also say that Dr. Donald L. Parson um at the that Dr. Donald L. Parson um at the that Dr. Donald L. Parson um at the church where I grew up in, you know, church where I grew up in, you know, church where I grew up in, you know, black preaching is a black preaching has black preaching is a black preaching has black preaching is a black preaching has rhythm to it. So it's it's not like a rhythm to it. So it's it's not like a rhythm to it. So it's it's not like a monologue. It's very much dialogical and monologue. It's very much dialogical and monologue. It's very much dialogical and and it's aerodite in this regard. and and it's aerodite in this regard. and and it's aerodite in this regard. and and Parson had this kind of ability to and Parson had this kind of ability to and Parson had this kind of ability to tell a story and to turn the text like a tell a story and to turn the text like a tell a story and to turn the text like a gem and then wind that thing up um to a gem and then wind that thing up um to a gem and then wind that thing up um to a climactic conclusion. I always wanted to climactic conclusion. I always wanted to climactic conclusion. I always wanted to do that. I I still haven't quite been do that. I I still haven't quite been do that. I I still haven't quite been able to do that, but I always always able to do that, but I always always able to do that, but I always always wanted to do that.

wanted to do that. wanted to do that. >> But then RW Shambach So RW Shambach is a >> But then RW Shambach So RW Shambach is a >> But then RW Shambach So RW Shambach is a is a Pentecostal revivalist down in is a Pentecostal revivalist down in is a Pentecostal revivalist down in Tyler, Texas. And I'm listening to him Tyler, Texas. And I'm listening to him Tyler, Texas. And I'm listening to him on the radio as a kid and uh I it was it on the radio as a kid and uh I it was it on the radio as a kid and uh I it was it was profound was profound was profound and and moving when he came on the and and moving when he came on the and and moving when he came on the radio. And so I had this yearning for radio. And so I had this yearning for radio. And so I had this yearning for preaching that was not merely cognitive preaching that was not merely cognitive preaching that was not merely cognitive or intellectual but in the upbringing I or intellectual but in the upbringing I or intellectual but in the upbringing I had that was also highly engaging and had that was also highly engaging and had that was also highly engaging and emotive as well. Those are the voices emotive as well. Those are the voices emotive as well. Those are the voices growing up, growing up, growing up, >> man. You know, I want to talk a little >> man. You know, I want to talk a little >> man. You know, I want to talk a little bit about black preaching, white bit about black preaching, white bit about black preaching, white preaching, so to speak. And I know to preaching, so to speak. And I know to preaching, so to speak. And I know to say there's white preaching. I mean, say there's white preaching. I mean, say there's white preaching. I mean, there's a thousand different strands. there's a thousand different strands. there's a thousand different strands. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> In both black and white, but >> In both black and white, but >> In both black and white, but >> I think most of us kind of understand >> I think most of us kind of understand >> I think most of us kind of understand that there are some fundamental that there are some fundamental that there are some fundamental >> characteristics of each. And when you >> characteristics of each. And when you >> characteristics of each. And when you think about think about think about >> the best of black preaching, Yeah. >> the best of black preaching, Yeah. >> the best of black preaching, Yeah. thinking about what white preachers can thinking about what white preachers can thinking about what white preachers can learn from black preachers. Black learn from black preachers. Black learn from black preachers. Black preachers probably might be able to pull preachers probably might be able to pull preachers probably might be able to pull a little bit from white preaching.

a little bit from white preaching. a little bit from white preaching. >> What what what what are some of the the >> What what what what are some of the the >> What what what what are some of the the fine characteristics? So you're like, fine characteristics? So you're like, fine characteristics? So you're like, "Now that is great preaching in the "Now that is great preaching in the "Now that is great preaching in the black church." black church." black church." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What happens? >> What happens? >> What happens? >> So I should tell you that EK Bailey and >> So I should tell you that EK Bailey and >> So I should tell you that EK Bailey and Warren Wearsby wrote this book Warren Wearsby wrote this book Warren Wearsby wrote this book >> 20some years ago called Preaching in >> 20some years ago called Preaching in >> 20some years ago called Preaching in Black and White. And it's essentially a Black and White. And it's essentially a Black and White. And it's essentially a conversation, a literary conversation conversation, a literary conversation conversation, a literary conversation that they have around the the dimensions that they have around the the dimensions that they have around the the dimensions of preaching from both traditions. To of preaching from both traditions. To of preaching from both traditions. To your point, and I'll just say it again your point, and I'll just say it again your point, and I'll just say it again so that your listeners know we're not so that your listeners know we're not so that your listeners know we're not myopic or or we're not even acting like myopic or or we're not even acting like myopic or or we're not even acting like it's monolithic, that there are multiple it's monolithic, that there are multiple it's monolithic, that there are multiple strands. I would say I would say that strands. I would say I would say that strands. I would say I would say that the best of black preaching is that the best of black preaching is that the best of black preaching is that preaching that has a high view of preaching that has a high view of preaching that has a high view of scripture, a high view of Christ scripture, a high view of Christ scripture, a high view of Christ that somehow that somehow that somehow re-imagines and retells the gospel story re-imagines and retells the gospel story re-imagines and retells the gospel story in a way that turns the ears into eyes. in a way that turns the ears into eyes. in a way that turns the ears into eyes. And then this is really important, it And then this is really important, it And then this is really important, it calls people to action. So EK Bailey calls people to action. So EK Bailey calls people to action. So EK Bailey used to have the question or he he would used to have the question or he he would used to have the question or he he would say you know if all your preaching say you know if all your preaching say you know if all your preaching leaves people in Jerusalem that's an leaves people in Jerusalem that's an leaves people in Jerusalem that's an exogetical practice and it doesn't get exogetical practice and it doesn't get exogetical practice and it doesn't get them to say the current era in which them to say the current era in which them to say the current era in which you've lived you failed them. So I think you've lived you failed them. So I think you've lived you failed them. So I think the best of black preaching grabs the the best of black preaching grabs the the best of black preaching grabs the world of the text world of the text world of the text fills in the color so to speak. it. I fills in the color so to speak. it. I fills in the color so to speak. it. I did a series of lectures called did a series of lectures called did a series of lectures called preaching in color fills in the color

preaching in color fills in the color preaching in color fills in the color and then it calls people to action in and then it calls people to action in and then it calls people to action in the current moment so that the current moment so that the current moment so that our hearing of preaching is an our hearing of preaching is an our hearing of preaching is an experience. experience. experience. It's not like a lecture. It's it's like It's not like a lecture. It's it's like It's not like a lecture. It's it's like a a dance a a dance a a dance as it were. Um, Frank Thomas, that that as it were. Um, Frank Thomas, that that as it were. Um, Frank Thomas, that that great scholar on black preaching, talks great scholar on black preaching, talks great scholar on black preaching, talks about a time where he heard LK Curry in about a time where he heard LK Curry in about a time where he heard LK Curry in Chicago eulogize a teenage friend of his Chicago eulogize a teenage friend of his Chicago eulogize a teenage friend of his and he went in all just in the dumps. and he went in all just in the dumps. and he went in all just in the dumps. Uh, Frank Thomas did, just sad. But Uh, Frank Thomas did, just sad. But Uh, Frank Thomas did, just sad. But something happened in the preaching of something happened in the preaching of something happened in the preaching of that eulogy in the hands of that black that eulogy in the hands of that black that eulogy in the hands of that black preacher that turned that memorial preacher that turned that memorial preacher that turned that memorial into a meaningful moment of joy. And into a meaningful moment of joy. And into a meaningful moment of joy. And Frank Thomas said when he was a teenager Frank Thomas said when he was a teenager Frank Thomas said when he was a teenager and he he opens one of the books talking and he he opens one of the books talking and he he opens one of the books talking about it. I think it's the intro to about it. I think it's the intro to about it. I think it's the intro to African-American preaching. African-American preaching. African-American preaching. >> He said that's dimensional. That's >> He said that's dimensional. That's >> He said that's dimensional. That's multi-dimensional. That's preaching multi-dimensional. That's preaching multi-dimensional. That's preaching that's happening on multiple levels. And that's happening on multiple levels. And that's happening on multiple levels. And that's what I want to give my life to. I that's what I want to give my life to. I that's what I want to give my life to. I think when you experience that, you're think when you experience that, you're think when you experience that, you're experiencing the influence of black experiencing the influence of black experiencing the influence of black preaching.

preaching. preaching. >> So when you craft a sermon >> So when you craft a sermon >> So when you craft a sermon >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What are you thinking about? What are >> What are you thinking about? What are >> What are you thinking about? What are you looking for? I mean, I'll be real you looking for? I mean, I'll be real you looking for? I mean, I'll be real transparent, Charlie. And uh I'm I'm transparent, Charlie. And uh I'm I'm transparent, Charlie. And uh I'm I'm known much more for my writing than my known much more for my writing than my known much more for my writing than my preaching. I'm trying to get to clarity. preaching. I'm trying to get to clarity. preaching. I'm trying to get to clarity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm trying to get to a simple single >> I'm I'm trying to get to a simple single >> I'm I'm trying to get to a simple single concept that holds it all together, for concept that holds it all together, for concept that holds it all together, for better or worse, and for impact, etc. better or worse, and for impact, etc. better or worse, and for impact, etc. But I'm wondering when you're sitting But I'm wondering when you're sitting But I'm wondering when you're sitting down and we you pastor two churches. down and we you pastor two churches. down and we you pastor two churches. We'll talk about that before we're done. We'll talk about that before we're done. We'll talk about that before we're done. But when you're writing for one of your But when you're writing for one of your But when you're writing for one of your churches or to preach at an event, churches or to preach at an event, churches or to preach at an event, what what happens? What what are you what what happens? What what are you what what happens? What what are you doing? doing? doing? >> All right. So, my exegetical process is >> All right. So, my exegetical process is >> All right. So, my exegetical process is probably too long. Believe it or not, probably too long. Believe it or not, probably too long. Believe it or not, and I don't think you would mind me and I don't think you would mind me and I don't think you would mind me telling this. Dr. Tony Evans and I sat telling this. Dr. Tony Evans and I sat telling this. Dr. Tony Evans and I sat down last weekend and I was asking him down last weekend and I was asking him down last weekend and I was asking him the same questions cuz I feel like on an the same questions cuz I feel like on an the same questions cuz I feel like on an average week, I'm in the nitty-gritty of average week, I'm in the nitty-gritty of average week, I'm in the nitty-gritty of the original languages of diagramming or the original languages of diagramming or the original languages of diagramming or what whatever it may be. But Carrie, I'm what whatever it may be. But Carrie, I'm what whatever it may be. But Carrie, I'm doing that to get to the point of doing that to get to the point of doing that to get to the point of clarity because for me, if I can clarity because for me, if I can clarity because for me, if I can understand what this passage meant to understand what this passage meant to understand what this passage meant to its original hearers, it's going to help its original hearers, it's going to help its original hearers, it's going to help me to dance, so to speak, within those me to dance, so to speak, within those me to dance, so to speak, within those lines. So that part is a big part and lines. So that part is a big part and lines. So that part is a big part and it's the front part of my preparation.

it's the front part of my preparation. it's the front part of my preparation. After that, I'm filtering the kind of After that, I'm filtering the kind of After that, I'm filtering the kind of homalytics of it, the preaching points homalytics of it, the preaching points homalytics of it, the preaching points cuz not everything that's exeetical is cuz not everything that's exeetical is cuz not everything that's exeetical is homalytical. You know, not not homalytical. You know, not not homalytical. You know, not not everything that you get in a study is everything that you get in a study is everything that you get in a study is meant to be brought out to the front. meant to be brought out to the front. meant to be brought out to the front. >> Every chef that cooks in a kitchen does >> Every chef that cooks in a kitchen does >> Every chef that cooks in a kitchen does not bring every ingredient and the not bring every ingredient and the not bring every ingredient and the leftover carrots and spinach and stuff leftover carrots and spinach and stuff leftover carrots and spinach and stuff and sit them on the table. So, I'm and sit them on the table. So, I'm and sit them on the table. So, I'm trying to figure out how do I get to trying to figure out how do I get to trying to figure out how do I get to this presentation and in my mind I I this presentation and in my mind I I this presentation and in my mind I I then am playing with history. So, I'll then am playing with history. So, I'll then am playing with history. So, I'll be honest with you. My thing is I like be honest with you. My thing is I like be honest with you. My thing is I like to hear some of the great voices of to hear some of the great voices of to hear some of the great voices of yestery year. How they imagined and yestery year. How they imagined and yestery year. How they imagined and reconstructed the world of the passage reconstructed the world of the passage reconstructed the world of the passage and then how they told the story as an and then how they told the story as an and then how they told the story as an inspiration or a clue to me as to what inspiration or a clue to me as to what inspiration or a clue to me as to what levers of the human heart are eligible levers of the human heart are eligible levers of the human heart are eligible to be moved in the preaching of this to be moved in the preaching of this to be moved in the preaching of this sermon. sermon. sermon. >> And man, I'm praying all the way >> And man, I'm praying all the way >> And man, I'm praying all the way through. No lie. Like I believe in the through. No lie. Like I believe in the through. No lie. Like I believe in the Holy Ghost. So I'm I'm like, you know, Holy Ghost. So I'm I'm like, you know, Holy Ghost. So I'm I'm like, you know, spirit of the living God, speak please spirit of the living God, speak please spirit of the living God, speak please about where this is going. Because the about where this is going. Because the about where this is going. Because the question we ask is, is there a word from question we ask is, is there a word from question we ask is, is there a word from the Lord? Not just is there an idea in the Lord? Not just is there an idea in the Lord? Not just is there an idea in this text, but how does the idea in the this text, but how does the idea in the this text, but how does the idea in the printed word of God come alive in the printed word of God come alive in the printed word of God come alive in the dynamic spoken word of God? And so it's dynamic spoken word of God? And so it's dynamic spoken word of God? And so it's a it's a toying with history. It's a a it's a toying with history. It's a a it's a toying with history. It's a listening to some of my heroes, and then listening to some of my heroes, and then listening to some of my heroes, and then it's a conversation with my pastors.

it's a conversation with my pastors. it's a conversation with my pastors. This is I think the best preaching comes This is I think the best preaching comes This is I think the best preaching comes out of community. For most of us, we're out of community. For most of us, we're out of community. For most of us, we're trying to figure it all out on our own, trying to figure it all out on our own, trying to figure it all out on our own, right? So, you know, in study, doing right? So, you know, in study, doing right? So, you know, in study, doing this, that, and the other, and then you this, that, and the other, and then you this, that, and the other, and then you think you got something great. But man, think you got something great. But man, think you got something great. But man, if you could circulate those ideas if you could circulate those ideas if you could circulate those ideas within a small community of trained within a small community of trained within a small community of trained preachers, preachers, preachers, >> the stuff they give back to you, oh my >> the stuff they give back to you, oh my >> the stuff they give back to you, oh my goodness. Um, has a way of illuminating goodness. Um, has a way of illuminating goodness. Um, has a way of illuminating what you've already studied. So, on the what you've already studied. So, on the what you've already studied. So, on the backside, so that's middle part. On the backside, so that's middle part. On the backside, so that's middle part. On the backside, then I'm trying to polish. backside, then I'm trying to polish. backside, then I'm trying to polish. Spurgeon said that, you know, choice of Spurgeon said that, you know, choice of Spurgeon said that, you know, choice of words, getting the best word versus a words, getting the best word versus a words, getting the best word versus a word that just works is the difference word that just works is the difference word that just works is the difference between a lightning bug and lightning. between a lightning bug and lightning. between a lightning bug and lightning. I'm trying to strike lightning every I'm trying to strike lightning every I'm trying to strike lightning every time I get up. I may not always do it, time I get up. I may not always do it, time I get up. I may not always do it, but I'm trying. And I I want the Lord to but I'm trying. And I I want the Lord to but I'm trying. And I I want the Lord to give me something that when it hits, give me something that when it hits, give me something that when it hits, it hits. This episode is brought to you it hits. This episode is brought to you it hits. This episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. With each breaking by Convoy of Hope. With each breaking by Convoy of Hope. With each breaking news stories of disaster around the news stories of disaster around the news stories of disaster around the world, I know that help is on the way world, I know that help is on the way world, I know that help is on the way because of the tireless efforts of my because of the tireless efforts of my because of the tireless efforts of my friends at Convoy of Hope. And their friends at Convoy of Hope. And their friends at Convoy of Hope. And their incredible work isn't limited to just incredible work isn't limited to just incredible work isn't limited to just providing relief in the wake of those providing relief in the wake of those providing relief in the wake of those storm paths. Last year alone, they storm paths. Last year alone, they storm paths. Last year alone, they trained and equipped close to 50,000 trained and equipped close to 50,000 trained and equipped close to 50,000 farmers and empowered nearly 80,000 farmers and empowered nearly 80,000 farmers and empowered nearly 80,000 women. I've seen this up close on the women. I've seen this up close on the women. I've seen this up close on the field. It's incredible. 677,000 field. It's incredible. 677,000 field. It's incredible. 677,000 children woke up this morning knowing children woke up this morning knowing children woke up this morning knowing they would receive a nutritious meal.

they would receive a nutritious meal. they would receive a nutritious meal. All because of our partnership with All because of our partnership with All because of our partnership with Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally traveled to the field. We saw firsthand traveled to the field. We saw firsthand traveled to the field. We saw firsthand the amazing impact of our personal the amazing impact of our personal the amazing impact of our personal Convoy partnership and how they tangibly Convoy partnership and how they tangibly Convoy partnership and how they tangibly share God's love. So, I think their work share God's love. So, I think their work share God's love. So, I think their work is impressive. I know the need is great. is impressive. I know the need is great. is impressive. I know the need is great. Sometimes the the news is just so Sometimes the the news is just so Sometimes the the news is just so overwhelming and your gift to Convoy of overwhelming and your gift to Convoy of overwhelming and your gift to Convoy of Hope will help make the difference. Join Hope will help make the difference. Join Hope will help make the difference. Join me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this great ministry. The website is great ministry. The website is great ministry. The website is convoyofhope.org/carry. convoyofhope.org/carry. convoyofhope.org/carry. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Brushfire. Well, you know this events Brushfire. Well, you know this events Brushfire. Well, you know this events are demanding and your team of staff and are demanding and your team of staff and are demanding and your team of staff and volunteers give everything they have to volunteers give everything they have to volunteers give everything they have to support events in your ministry. What if support events in your ministry. What if support events in your ministry. What if you could make life easier on your team, you could make life easier on your team, you could make life easier on your team, make more money for your ministry, and make more money for your ministry, and make more money for your ministry, and deliver a better experience for your deliver a better experience for your deliver a better experience for your guests? Well, with Brushfire, you can. guests? Well, with Brushfire, you can. guests? Well, with Brushfire, you can. And they have a solution just for And they have a solution just for And they have a solution just for churches. Most ticketing platforms just churches. Most ticketing platforms just churches. Most ticketing platforms just provide cookie cutter technology. But provide cookie cutter technology. But provide cookie cutter technology. But Brushfire has been helping churches for Brushfire has been helping churches for Brushfire has been helping churches for over 20 years manage registrations, over 20 years manage registrations, over 20 years manage registrations, check-in, communication, and reporting check-in, communication, and reporting check-in, communication, and reporting all in a single place for one monthly all in a single place for one monthly all in a single place for one monthly subscription cost for qualifying subscription cost for qualifying subscription cost for qualifying churches. Listeners of this podcast can churches. Listeners of this podcast can churches. Listeners of this podcast can save on Brushfire by visiting save on Brushfire by visiting save on Brushfire by visiting brushfire.com/carry brushfire.com/carry brushfire.com/carry that's bruhfire.comcy h. And so um when you're building the h. And so um when you're building the sermon do you have a particular sermon do you have a particular sermon do you have a particular structure that you follow? I mean I'm a

structure that you follow? I mean I'm a structure that you follow? I mean I'm a student of Keller's preaching. You student of Keller's preaching. You student of Keller's preaching. You always know it's going to be an always know it's going to be an always know it's going to be an introductory idea and then he's going to introductory idea and then he's going to introductory idea and then he's going to have three things to say and he's going have three things to say and he's going have three things to say and he's going to run out of time by he's by the time to run out of time by he's by the time to run out of time by he's by the time he's at the third point. It's it's he's at the third point. It's it's he's at the third point. It's it's absolutely beautiful and I say that with absolutely beautiful and I say that with absolutely beautiful and I say that with great great great affection. great great great affection. great great great affection. >> I sort of have a structure. Do you have >> I sort of have a structure. Do you have >> I sort of have a structure. Do you have a common structure or several structures a common structure or several structures a common structure or several structures that that that >> I have several I have several because I >> I have several I have several because I >> I have several I have several because I don't think every genre of scripture don't think every genre of scripture don't think every genre of scripture fits neatly in one structure. fits neatly in one structure. fits neatly in one structure. >> Say more. So well so I think episttolary >> Say more. So well so I think episttolary >> Say more. So well so I think episttolary linear literature uh lends itself to linear literature uh lends itself to linear literature uh lends itself to more of a inductive deductive main idea more of a inductive deductive main idea more of a inductive deductive main idea supporting idea kind of structure but if supporting idea kind of structure but if supporting idea kind of structure but if I'm honest Carrie if I just be honest I'm honest Carrie if I just be honest I'm honest Carrie if I just be honest >> I think that gets boring after a while >> I think that gets boring after a while >> I think that gets boring after a while even the people who listen to you all even the people who listen to you all even the people who listen to you all the time like say you're married right the time like say you're married right the time like say you're married right and you know you're you're trying to and you know you're you're trying to and you know you're you're trying to keep the romance and the the keep the romance and the the keep the romance and the the relationship warm you don't just do the relationship warm you don't just do the relationship warm you don't just do the same thing every way, every time. You same thing every way, every time. You same thing every way, every time. You know, you kind of want to buy flowers or know, you kind of want to buy flowers or know, you kind of want to buy flowers or buy perfume or set up something as a buy perfume or set up something as a buy perfume or set up something as a surprise. So, I'm thinking surprise. So, I'm thinking surprise. So, I'm thinking for me based upon the genre of for me based upon the genre of for me based upon the genre of scripture, what preferred outline works scripture, what preferred outline works scripture, what preferred outline works better? Now, there's some simple guiding better? Now, there's some simple guiding better? Now, there's some simple guiding principles for me that strike at every principles for me that strike at every principles for me that strike at every sermon. Meaning, at the beginning, I'm sermon. Meaning, at the beginning, I'm sermon. Meaning, at the beginning, I'm either going to do I'm going to do either going to do I'm going to do either going to do I'm going to do something to get people's attention. So, something to get people's attention. So, something to get people's attention. So, I'm either going to begin with some I'm either going to begin with some I'm either going to begin with some narrative, some concept, some story that narrative, some concept, some story that narrative, some concept, some story that helps me work my way to a main idea helps me work my way to a main idea helps me work my way to a main idea because I believe that people need a because I believe that people need a because I believe that people need a central idea

central idea central idea >> to work with. >> to work with. >> to work with. >> Otherwise, you're right. You're the chef >> Otherwise, you're right. You're the chef >> Otherwise, you're right. You're the chef coming out of the kitchen with all the coming out of the kitchen with all the coming out of the kitchen with all the ingredients. I was like, what is this a ingredients. I was like, what is this a ingredients. I was like, what is this a soup? soup? soup? >> I have no idea. >> I have no idea. >> I have no idea. >> And and depending upon how you preach >> And and depending upon how you preach >> And and depending upon how you preach it, you might give that idea at the it, you might give that idea at the it, you might give that idea at the front, you might give it at the middle, front, you might give it at the middle, front, you might give it at the middle, might give it at the end. But I have might give it at the end. But I have might give it at the end. But I have like for instance, so I preached Gideon like for instance, so I preached Gideon like for instance, so I preached Gideon uh story in Judges 6 and 7 recently and uh story in Judges 6 and 7 recently and uh story in Judges 6 and 7 recently and I just I started the sermon by asking a I just I started the sermon by asking a I just I started the sermon by asking a question. I've heard um Dr. Ralph question. I've heard um Dr. Ralph question. I've heard um Dr. Ralph Douglas West do a number of pieces like Douglas West do a number of pieces like Douglas West do a number of pieces like this where he'll say, you know, um, this where he'll say, you know, um, this where he'll say, you know, um, have you ever been in a situation or have you ever been in a situation or have you ever been in a situation or have you ever found yourself have you ever found yourself have you ever found yourself underresourced and overwhelmed and underresourced and overwhelmed and underresourced and overwhelmed and wondered to yourself, will God make a wondered to yourself, will God make a wondered to yourself, will God make a way? And right there in that moment, I'm way? And right there in that moment, I'm way? And right there in that moment, I'm there. And so I I'll move from that to there. And so I I'll move from that to there. And so I I'll move from that to some narrative, in this case, Madam CJ some narrative, in this case, Madam CJ some narrative, in this case, Madam CJ Walker, who is under she's the picture Walker, who is under she's the picture Walker, who is under she's the picture of less. And I highlight that just to of less. And I highlight that just to of less. And I highlight that just to kind of help people see kind of help people see kind of help people see a word of thenness, a word of nowness, a word of thenness, a word of nowness, a word of thenness, a word of nowness, and a word of always. That what this and a word of always. That what this and a word of always. That what this text is going to say to us text is going to say to us text is going to say to us >> spoke to people way back then, speaks to >> spoke to people way back then, speaks to >> spoke to people way back then, speaks to people now. And as long as people exist, people now. And as long as people exist, people now. And as long as people exist, it will speak to them in that way. And it will speak to them in that way. And it will speak to them in that way. And so any way that I can get to that so any way that I can get to that so any way that I can get to that thenness, nowness, and always is how I'm thenness, nowness, and always is how I'm thenness, nowness, and always is how I'm going to do it. What I'm learning going to do it. What I'm learning going to do it. What I'm learning though, what I'm trying to practice, and though, what I'm trying to practice, and though, what I'm trying to practice, and I had fun with the church this past week I had fun with the church this past week I had fun with the church this past week because I didn't do it, is what I call a because I didn't do it, is what I call a because I didn't do it, is what I call a hidden outline. So the structure is hidden outline. So the structure is hidden outline. So the structure is there, but I'm not just going to always

there, but I'm not just going to always there, but I'm not just going to always announce my mains. I'm going to think of announce my mains. I'm going to think of announce my mains. I'm going to think of the sermon as a movement. Dr. Robert the sermon as a movement. Dr. Robert the sermon as a movement. Dr. Robert Smith calls this, his book, Doctrine Smith calls this, his book, Doctrine Smith calls this, his book, Doctrine That Dances, an exogetical escort. I'm That Dances, an exogetical escort. I'm That Dances, an exogetical escort. I'm going to kind of move you as a partner going to kind of move you as a partner going to kind of move you as a partner to show you kind of how this text calls to show you kind of how this text calls to show you kind of how this text calls you to life and and causes you to you to life and and causes you to you to life and and causes you to experience God's riches and and best. experience God's riches and and best. experience God's riches and and best. So, if I'm in a New Testament epistle, I So, if I'm in a New Testament epistle, I So, if I'm in a New Testament epistle, I got one way. If I'm in an Old Testament got one way. If I'm in an Old Testament got one way. If I'm in an Old Testament narrative, I'm in another. Now, if I'm narrative, I'm in another. Now, if I'm narrative, I'm in another. Now, if I'm in the Psalms, man, I'm just having fun. in the Psalms, man, I'm just having fun. in the Psalms, man, I'm just having fun. Uh because I think that's poetry. It Uh because I think that's poetry. It Uh because I think that's poetry. It lends itself to some of the great poets lends itself to some of the great poets lends itself to some of the great poets literally of yestery year and some of literally of yestery year and some of literally of yestery year and some of the great metaphors and imagery. And if the great metaphors and imagery. And if the great metaphors and imagery. And if you can unpack a psalm to kind of what you can unpack a psalm to kind of what you can unpack a psalm to kind of what it was getting at, you don't even need it was getting at, you don't even need it was getting at, you don't even need you could just almost put a microphone you could just almost put a microphone you could just almost put a microphone like on the Bible and and let it let it like on the Bible and and let it let it like on the Bible and and let it let it talk uh in one sense for itself. But I talk uh in one sense for itself. But I talk uh in one sense for itself. But I think because the salt psalter packs so think because the salt psalter packs so think because the salt psalter packs so much human emotion, I want the tone of much human emotion, I want the tone of much human emotion, I want the tone of my sermon to as best I can have some of my sermon to as best I can have some of my sermon to as best I can have some of that emotion in it.

that emotion in it. that emotion in it. >> H >> H >> H what do you think white preachers can what do you think white preachers can what do you think white preachers can learn from black preachers? learn from black preachers? learn from black preachers? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> and you're bentecostal, so I mean we >> and you're bentecostal, so I mean we >> and you're bentecostal, so I mean we have Pentecostal preachers and we have have Pentecostal preachers and we have have Pentecostal preachers and we have Baptist preachers non- nom. Um and and Baptist preachers non- nom. Um and and Baptist preachers non- nom. Um and and yeah, there's a huge variety. yeah, there's a huge variety. yeah, there's a huge variety. >> Yeah, this is gonna sound weird. Uh I'm >> Yeah, this is gonna sound weird. Uh I'm >> Yeah, this is gonna sound weird. Uh I'm gonna back my way into it. You know who gonna back my way into it. You know who gonna back my way into it. You know who Dave Chappelle is? Dave Chappelle is? Dave Chappelle is? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> So So Dave Chappelle is my favorite >> So So Dave Chappelle is my favorite >> So So Dave Chappelle is my favorite comedian right now. And I think one of comedian right now. And I think one of comedian right now. And I think one of the things we I would say we all could the things we I would say we all could the things we I would say we all could learn, but I would I would say that that learn, but I would I would say that that learn, but I would I would say that that white preachers, some of the white white preachers, some of the white white preachers, some of the white preachers I've heard in particular, can preachers I've heard in particular, can preachers I've heard in particular, can learn is how to tell a story like Dave learn is how to tell a story like Dave learn is how to tell a story like Dave Chappelle. Um there there is a way to Chappelle. Um there there is a way to Chappelle. Um there there is a way to have an imagination in homalytics that have an imagination in homalytics that have an imagination in homalytics that invites people into a world that you invites people into a world that you invites people into a world that you help to construct and let them help to construct and let them help to construct and let them experience it. And this I believe Jesus experience it. And this I believe Jesus experience it. And this I believe Jesus was best at this and right when they was best at this and right when they was best at this and right when they least expect it, you pull a punchline least expect it, you pull a punchline least expect it, you pull a punchline and and you and it like makes sense of and and you and it like makes sense of and and you and it like makes sense of everything. So I would say preaching everything. So I would say preaching everything. So I would say preaching with imagination, storytelling in that with imagination, storytelling in that with imagination, storytelling in that regard. But then I would also say regard. But then I would also say regard. But then I would also say this is just my bias and and I recognize this is just my bias and and I recognize this is just my bias and and I recognize it that the scriptures especially people it that the scriptures especially people it that the scriptures especially people who've been liberated so from Exodus to who've been liberated so from Exodus to who've been liberated so from Exodus to the psalter and beyond the psalter and beyond the psalter and beyond call us to some kind of expressive presentation presentation >> of our worship and witness to God. I'm >> of our worship and witness to God. I'm >> of our worship and witness to God. I'm not saying everybody needs to be

not saying everybody needs to be not saying everybody needs to be animated and you know if you if you are animated and you know if you if you are animated and you know if you if you are flatfoot stand flatfoot if you're a flatfoot stand flatfoot if you're a flatfoot stand flatfoot if you're a walker walk you know whatever that but walker walk you know whatever that but walker walk you know whatever that but there ought to be some kind of visceral there ought to be some kind of visceral there ought to be some kind of visceral response to the truth of God that I response to the truth of God that I response to the truth of God that I think black preaching in its best forms think black preaching in its best forms think black preaching in its best forms bequaths to the rest of the uh the form bequaths to the rest of the uh the form bequaths to the rest of the uh the form I think of American preaching. I think of American preaching. I think of American preaching. >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm definitely not somebody who who like is definitely not somebody who who like is definitely not somebody who who like is very emotive in my communication for the very emotive in my communication for the very emotive in my communication for the most time. And I notice a difference too most time. And I notice a difference too most time. And I notice a difference too in terms of delivery where I will be in terms of delivery where I will be in terms of delivery where I will be what I think in my head is a 10 out of what I think in my head is a 10 out of what I think in my head is a 10 out of 10 or 11 out of 10. And my wife will say 10 or 11 out of 10. And my wife will say 10 or 11 out of 10. And my wife will say or somebody close to me will say, "Man, or somebody close to me will say, "Man, or somebody close to me will say, "Man, you were on fire today or you were you were on fire today or you were you were on fire today or you were really passionate." I listen back and it really passionate." I listen back and it really passionate." I listen back and it feels like someone put a muzzle or a feels like someone put a muzzle or a feels like someone put a muzzle or a mute over my mouth over like I felt like mute over my mouth over like I felt like mute over my mouth over like I felt like I was screaming at you. I was screaming at you. I was screaming at you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I look back and I'm like I'm just >> And I look back and I'm like I'm just >> And I look back and I'm like I'm just kind of talking. But it got I don't kind of talking. But it got I don't kind of talking. But it got I don't know. It's really interesting like there know. It's really interesting like there know. It's really interesting like there is almost a an overanimation that needs is almost a an overanimation that needs is almost a an overanimation that needs to happen to happen to happen >> to come across because something gets >> to come across because something gets >> to come across because something gets lost in translation. At least it does lost in translation. At least it does lost in translation. At least it does for me. I don't know why you've seen for me. I don't know why you've seen for me. I don't know why you've seen that.

that. that. >> I I think you ought to come preach here. >> I I think you ought to come preach here. >> I I think you ought to come preach here. And okay, so I'm I'm going on your And okay, so I'm I'm going on your And okay, so I'm I'm going on your podcast on record and inviting you. I podcast on record and inviting you. I podcast on record and inviting you. I think you ought to come preach here think you ought to come preach here think you ought to come preach here >> and see how the people treat you when >> and see how the people treat you when >> and see how the people treat you when you preach because that's the other you preach because that's the other you preach because that's the other thing. It's context matters. thing. It's context matters. thing. It's context matters. >> And so when a congregation knows how to >> And so when a congregation knows how to >> And so when a congregation knows how to give and take with its preacher, it does give and take with its preacher, it does give and take with its preacher, it does something for the preacher. something for the preacher. something for the preacher. >> I would tell you as well that I don't >> I would tell you as well that I don't >> I would tell you as well that I don't know that volume is what I'm after. is know that volume is what I'm after. is know that volume is what I'm after. is affect it is and sometimes affect is affect it is and sometimes affect is affect it is and sometimes affect is coded in language and and and in timing. coded in language and and and in timing. coded in language and and and in timing. Um, Um, Um, one of my favorite preachers, Crawford one of my favorite preachers, Crawford one of my favorite preachers, Crawford Wheeler Laritz was with us last year and Wheeler Laritz was with us last year and Wheeler Laritz was with us last year and I mean, you know, he preaches in I mean, you know, he preaches in I mean, you know, he preaches in multiple contexts. Uh, multiple contexts. Uh, multiple contexts. Uh, >> man, he came here and he did something >> man, he came here and he did something >> man, he came here and he did something that just was not fair. I mean, he took that just was not fair. I mean, he took that just was not fair. I mean, he took kind of like this sage kind of thing he kind of like this sage kind of thing he kind of like this sage kind of thing he got going on and weaved it with some got going on and weaved it with some got going on and weaved it with some storytelling and before you knew it, I storytelling and before you knew it, I storytelling and before you knew it, I saw grown men weeping.

saw grown men weeping. saw grown men weeping. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And he didn't raise his voice. He didn't >> And he didn't raise his voice. He didn't >> And he didn't raise his voice. He didn't raise his voice. So, I think you ought raise his voice. So, I think you ought raise his voice. So, I think you ought to come. And and I think the reason I to come. And and I think the reason I to come. And and I think the reason I give that to you is because so I give that to you is because so I give that to you is because so I preached at the National Cathedral a few preached at the National Cathedral a few preached at the National Cathedral a few weeks ago at this event and it was like weeks ago at this event and it was like weeks ago at this event and it was like >> 859 black people, okay, in the nave and >> 859 black people, okay, in the nave and >> 859 black people, okay, in the nave and >> I know when I go in a setting like that, >> I know when I go in a setting like that, >> I know when I go in a setting like that, people aren't necessarily going to talk people aren't necessarily going to talk people aren't necessarily going to talk back to me because that's they're back to me because that's they're back to me because that's they're culturally different in that way. culturally different in that way. culturally different in that way. >> Man, they started talking back to me >> Man, they started talking back to me >> Man, they started talking back to me >> and and part of it was I I told him >> and and part of it was I I told him >> and and part of it was I I told him y'all could talk back like you could y'all could talk back like you could y'all could talk back like you could say, man, it's no problem. But when it say, man, it's no problem. But when it say, man, it's no problem. But when it was over, Carrie, no lie, people in the was over, Carrie, no lie, people in the was over, Carrie, no lie, people in the back were standing like, you know, hands back were standing like, you know, hands back were standing like, you know, hands raised. And this elderly white woman raised. And this elderly white woman raised. And this elderly white woman came to me. She said, "I get why black came to me. She said, "I get why black came to me. She said, "I get why black people love you so much. If I heard this people love you so much. If I heard this people love you so much. If I heard this every week, I just, oh my gosh, I don't every week, I just, oh my gosh, I don't every week, I just, oh my gosh, I don't know what I would do." know what I would do." know what I would do." And man, I thought it was so great And man, I thought it was so great And man, I thought it was so great because it preaching is like music. because it preaching is like music. because it preaching is like music. People are the same. And whatever People are the same. And whatever People are the same. And whatever gifting of personality that God has gifting of personality that God has gifting of personality that God has given you, if you can master that music, given you, if you can master that music, given you, if you can master that music, as it were, and get some music in your as it were, and get some music in your as it were, and get some music in your voice, voice, voice, >> then it will transcend culture and and >> then it will transcend culture and and >> then it will transcend culture and and people will go, "That's I felt that. I people will go, "That's I felt that. I people will go, "That's I felt that. I didn't just hear that. I felt that."

didn't just hear that. I felt that." didn't just hear that. I felt that." >> Yeah. How have you gotten more >> Yeah. How have you gotten more >> Yeah. How have you gotten more comfortable on stage? comfortable on stage? comfortable on stage? >> Oh, I don't know that I am. As crazy as >> Oh, I don't know that I am. As crazy as >> Oh, I don't know that I am. As crazy as that sounds, man. that sounds, man. that sounds, man. >> How's that? >> How's that? >> How's that? Well, I still shake mounts in the Well, I still shake mounts in the Well, I still shake mounts in the pullpit. Uh there is a Oh my goodness, pullpit. Uh there is a Oh my goodness, pullpit. Uh there is a Oh my goodness, Lord. So much is uh in me and so much is Lord. So much is uh in me and so much is Lord. So much is uh in me and so much is at stake and hold me together. Please at stake and hold me together. Please at stake and hold me together. Please give me give me that word because I give me give me that word because I give me give me that word because I think every my father my wife's father I think every my father my wife's father I think every my father my wife's father I call him my father-in-law. They live two call him my father-in-law. They live two call him my father-in-law. They live two hours south of us. So whenever we're hours south of us. So whenever we're hours south of us. So whenever we're leaving them coming back home, he grabs leaving them coming back home, he grabs leaving them coming back home, he grabs me. He puts his hand on my shoulder. He me. He puts his hand on my shoulder. He me. He puts his hand on my shoulder. He says, "You've driven that road several says, "You've driven that road several says, "You've driven that road several times." He said, "But today is times." He said, "But today is times." He said, "But today is different. This is the first time you're different. This is the first time you're different. This is the first time you're driving it in this way." I think driving it in this way." I think driving it in this way." I think preaching is the same way. You've gotten preaching is the same way. You've gotten preaching is the same way. You've gotten up several times, but today is up several times, but today is up several times, but today is different. It's the first time you're different. It's the first time you're different. It's the first time you're going to stand in front of these people going to stand in front of these people going to stand in front of these people in this way with this moment. in this way with this moment. in this way with this moment. >> And so I what I'm thankful for is I >> And so I what I'm thankful for is I >> And so I what I'm thankful for is I forget who said it. Pray before you forget who said it. Pray before you forget who said it. Pray before you preach. Pray while you're preaching.

preach. Pray while you're preaching. preach. Pray while you're preaching. Pray when you get done preaching. I'm Pray when you get done preaching. I'm Pray when you get done preaching. I'm praying very often um like in a second praying very often um like in a second praying very often um like in a second consciousness. I don't know what to call consciousness. I don't know what to call consciousness. I don't know what to call it, but I'm praying a and I relax it, but I'm praying a and I relax it, but I'm praying a and I relax >> at some point at some point I relax. And >> at some point at some point I relax. And >> at some point at some point I relax. And I imagine it's like a ball player who I imagine it's like a ball player who I imagine it's like a ball player who scores their first few points and they scores their first few points and they scores their first few points and they doesn't matter the noise at that point. doesn't matter the noise at that point. doesn't matter the noise at that point. You you can tell the actual distance of You you can tell the actual distance of You you can tell the actual distance of the rim from you and how the shot will the rim from you and how the shot will the rim from you and how the shot will fall. So if I could get a few rhythms in fall. So if I could get a few rhythms in fall. So if I could get a few rhythms in movements back and forth with the movements back and forth with the movements back and forth with the people, then I'm saying this is my own people, then I'm saying this is my own people, then I'm saying this is my own preacher language. I got this house. I'm preacher language. I got this house. I'm preacher language. I got this house. I'm in the house. Now, in the house. Now, in the house. Now, >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. So, a question for you about this ad So, a question for you about this ad So, a question for you about this ad spot. You ever ask yourself like, how spot. You ever ask yourself like, how spot. You ever ask yourself like, how did I end up listening to this ad right did I end up listening to this ad right did I end up listening to this ad right now? Well, that's called placement. And now? Well, that's called placement. And now? Well, that's called placement. And the placement of this ad comes from the placement of this ad comes from the placement of this ad comes from Glue. And I've got Brian Brown here who Glue. And I've got Brian Brown here who Glue. And I've got Brian Brown here who leads the Glue team focused on helping leads the Glue team focused on helping leads the Glue team focused on helping your ministry grow your reach because I your ministry grow your reach because I your ministry grow your reach because I think what they built is really worth think what they built is really worth think what they built is really worth knowing about. So, Brian, tell us a knowing about. So, Brian, tell us a knowing about. So, Brian, tell us a little bit about placement and glue's little bit about placement and glue's little bit about placement and glue's role in that. role in that. role in that. >> Thanks, Carrie. Glue has built a way to >> Thanks, Carrie. Glue has built a way to >> Thanks, Carrie. Glue has built a way to reach Christians who are already reach Christians who are already reach Christians who are already engaged, already reading, listening, and engaged, already reading, listening, and engaged, already reading, listening, and looking for resources that line up with looking for resources that line up with looking for resources that line up with what they believe. We're talking about what they believe. We're talking about what they believe. We're talking about podcast just like this one, trusted podcast just like this one, trusted podcast just like this one, trusted publishers, trusted voices, quality publishers, trusted voices, quality publishers, trusted voices, quality content channels, and they're all content channels, and they're all content channels, and they're all connected. So, if you're a business or a connected. So, if you're a business or a connected. So, if you're a business or a ministry or a nonprofit, and you've ever ministry or a nonprofit, and you've ever ministry or a nonprofit, and you've ever wondered, I wish we could get in front wondered, I wish we could get in front wondered, I wish we could get in front of an audience just like this, that's of an audience just like this, that's of an audience just like this, that's literally what our network is for at literally what our network is for at literally what our network is for at Glue. You're not buying some random ad

Glue. You're not buying some random ad Glue. You're not buying some random ad placement. You're reaching the people placement. You're reaching the people placement. You're reaching the people who are already leaning in. who are already leaning in. who are already leaning in. >> So, it's strategic. And if you want to >> So, it's strategic. And if you want to >> So, it's strategic. And if you want to know how it works, if your organization know how it works, if your organization know how it works, if your organization wants to be featured in spots like this wants to be featured in spots like this wants to be featured in spots like this one here or elsewhere, contact Glue by one here or elsewhere, contact Glue by one here or elsewhere, contact Glue by going to glue.com/grow. going to glue.com/grow. going to glue.com/grow. And I want to spell that for you. That's And I want to spell that for you. That's And I want to spell that for you. That's glow.com/grow. What have you learned from white What have you learned from white preacher, preacher, preacher, >> man? Uh, first of all, >> man? Uh, first of all, >> man? Uh, first of all, this is so this is so great to me this is so this is so great to me this is so this is so great to me because because because white people love my white brothers and white people love my white brothers and white people love my white brothers and sisters who I know. They can learn live sisters who I know. They can learn live sisters who I know. They can learn live their whole lives without having to their whole lives without having to their whole lives without having to learn anything about black people and learn anything about black people and learn anything about black people and have a completely normal existence. have a completely normal existence. have a completely normal existence. Black people in order to survive have to Black people in order to survive have to Black people in order to survive have to learn about white people. learn about white people. learn about white people. >> It's just the truth. It's the way we're >> It's just the truth. It's the way we're >> It's just the truth. It's the way we're conditioned in America. So conditioned in America. So conditioned in America. So >> my metriculation formally through >> my metriculation formally through >> my metriculation formally through seminary and PhD work was with largely seminary and PhD work was with largely seminary and PhD work was with largely white scholars.

white scholars. white scholars. >> So I mean I I mean right now uh I mean >> So I mean I I mean right now uh I mean >> So I mean I I mean right now uh I mean Jonathan Edwards I interacted so I Jonathan Edwards I interacted so I Jonathan Edwards I interacted so I studied with Dr. Doug Sweeney who is studied with Dr. Doug Sweeney who is studied with Dr. Doug Sweeney who is like the John Edwards scholar like the John Edwards scholar like the John Edwards scholar afficionado but I I read a whole lot I afficionado but I I read a whole lot I afficionado but I I read a whole lot I read George Whitfield read George Whitfield read George Whitfield um I I read um um I I read um um I I read um Lyman Beecher I I just it's so many Lyman Beecher I I just it's so many Lyman Beecher I I just it's so many preachers of church history that I had preachers of church history that I had preachers of church history that I had to read and then some of my preaching to read and then some of my preaching to read and then some of my preaching professors most of them were not black professors most of them were not black professors most of them were not black >> and so they they had their rhythms that >> and so they they had their rhythms that >> and so they they had their rhythms that they taught. So, I want to just say I've they taught. So, I want to just say I've they taught. So, I want to just say I've been in that classroom, and I don't mean been in that classroom, and I don't mean been in that classroom, and I don't mean just the actual physical classroom. So, just the actual physical classroom. So, just the actual physical classroom. So, one of the things um that I've learned, one of the things um that I've learned, one of the things um that I've learned, some of the good things I should say, some of the good things I should say, some of the good things I should say, that I've taken away from learning from that I've taken away from learning from that I've taken away from learning from white preachers is that every audience white preachers is that every audience white preachers is that every audience deserves a different form of deserves a different form of deserves a different form of contextualization. So, I don't go into contextualization. So, I don't go into contextualization. So, I don't go into every audience assuming that they're every audience assuming that they're every audience assuming that they're going to get it the same way. I don't going to get it the same way. I don't going to get it the same way. I don't change up who I am, but I just go, okay, change up who I am, but I just go, okay, change up who I am, but I just go, okay, having sat in some of these spaces and having sat in some of these spaces and having sat in some of these spaces and talked with some of these people, I know talked with some of these people, I know talked with some of these people, I know that they're not going to appreciate, as that they're not going to appreciate, as that they're not going to appreciate, as it were, a reference in this direction.

it were, a reference in this direction. it were, a reference in this direction. They're not going to understand They're not going to understand They're not going to understand um a a response to the text, say it this um a a response to the text, say it this um a a response to the text, say it this way. And so, I just try to hit it and way. And so, I just try to hit it and way. And so, I just try to hit it and quit it. No joke. when when I'm in those quit it. No joke. when when I'm in those quit it. No joke. when when I'm in those spaces, I just go right in, hit it, and spaces, I just go right in, hit it, and spaces, I just go right in, hit it, and then I step back off of it. And so, I've then I step back off of it. And so, I've then I step back off of it. And so, I've I've learned how to govern myself I've learned how to govern myself I've learned how to govern myself in non-black spaces from some of my in non-black spaces from some of my in non-black spaces from some of my non-black friends and preaching mentors. non-black friends and preaching mentors. non-black friends and preaching mentors. >> One of the challenges is in most white >> One of the challenges is in most white >> One of the challenges is in most white churches, you don't necessarily have a churches, you don't necessarily have a churches, you don't necessarily have a feedback culture like you have in black feedback culture like you have in black feedback culture like you have in black church. Like, most black churches are church. Like, most black churches are church. Like, most black churches are going to give you something, right? It's going to give you something, right? It's going to give you something, right? It's going to be a dialogue. It's going to be going to be a dialogue. It's going to be going to be a dialogue. It's going to be back and forth. white churches. And I back and forth. white churches. And I back and forth. white churches. And I mean, I've I've looked out there and you mean, I've I've looked out there and you mean, I've I've looked out there and you just you just look at deadness. And it's just you just look at deadness. And it's just you just look at deadness. And it's >> I wonder though, so I'm not trying to >> I wonder though, so I'm not trying to >> I wonder though, so I'm not trying to get into trouble, but I wonder, Carrie, get into trouble, but I wonder, Carrie, get into trouble, but I wonder, Carrie, about what you just said because I about what you just said because I about what you just said because I wonder that the more black people go to wonder that the more black people go to wonder that the more black people go to white churches, I wonder how much of white churches, I wonder how much of white churches, I wonder how much of that is dying. that is dying. that is dying. >> Yeah. As it becomes more multithnic.

>> Yeah. As it becomes more multithnic. >> Yeah. As it becomes more multithnic. >> Yeah, you're right. If you think about >> Yeah, you're right. If you think about >> Yeah, you're right. If you think about it, and and I mean, I mostly speak to it, and and I mean, I mostly speak to it, and and I mean, I mostly speak to leadership audiences, which is probably leadership audiences, which is probably leadership audiences, which is probably a little more a little more a little more Yeah. Interesting. Depending on the Yeah. Interesting. Depending on the Yeah. Interesting. Depending on the denomination you might be in front of, denomination you might be in front of, denomination you might be in front of, uh, you can get some pretty uniform uh, you can get some pretty uniform uh, you can get some pretty uniform crowds, crowds, crowds, >> but I'm wondering if you get a a cold >> but I'm wondering if you get a a cold >> but I'm wondering if you get a a cold audience like that, what do you do? audience like that, what do you do? audience like that, what do you do? >> You preach till they warm up. >> You preach till they warm up. >> You preach till they warm up. >> So, you're not going to let them off the >> So, you're not going to let them off the >> So, you're not going to let them off the hook? hook? hook? >> Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Either listen, >> Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Either listen, >> Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Either listen, either I'm never coming back or you're either I'm never coming back or you're either I'm never coming back or you're gonna wake up uh today. That's that's gonna wake up uh today. That's that's gonna wake up uh today. That's that's kind of my my philosophy. And so I have kind of my my philosophy. And so I have kind of my my philosophy. And so I have um and I mean I've been in some of the um and I mean I've been in some of the um and I mean I've been in some of the best of them. I don't want to call best of them. I don't want to call best of them. I don't want to call names. I've been in some of the best of names. I've been in some of the best of names. I've been in some of the best of those spots. But what I've discovered is those spots. But what I've discovered is those spots. But what I've discovered is people can smell freshly baked bread people can smell freshly baked bread people can smell freshly baked bread from the road. When when they are with from the road. When when they are with from the road. When when they are with preaching that is renewing, alive is preaching that is renewing, alive is preaching that is renewing, alive is fresh, fresh, fresh, you can see them perk up a little bit if you can see them perk up a little bit if you can see them perk up a little bit if they're Christian they're Christian they're Christian >> uh by and large. like if if they if they >> uh by and large. like if if they if they >> uh by and large. like if if they if they love the Lord. So I just go in and I try love the Lord. So I just go in and I try love the Lord. So I just go in and I try to buckle down. But I tell people again, to buckle down. But I tell people again, to buckle down. But I tell people again, I I say before I get going, hey, listen, I I say before I get going, hey, listen, I I say before I get going, hey, listen, in my tradition, our preaching is in my tradition, our preaching is in my tradition, our preaching is dialogical. You will hear me say that a dialogical. You will hear me say that a dialogical. You will hear me say that a lot. That's not a disrespect to anybody lot. That's not a disrespect to anybody lot. That's not a disrespect to anybody in in the congregation, but it's in in the congregation, but it's in in the congregation, but it's permission for those of you who are here permission for those of you who are here permission for those of you who are here who when you feel something and you want who when you feel something and you want who when you feel something and you want to say something cuz that's going to to say something cuz that's going to to say something cuz that's going to happen. You're going to look around and

happen. You're going to look around and happen. You're going to look around and wonder, should I? I'm giving you wonder, should I? I'm giving you wonder, should I? I'm giving you permission. And in that moment, no lie. permission. And in that moment, no lie. permission. And in that moment, no lie. No lie, Carrie. People go, "Amen." Yes. No lie, Carrie. People go, "Amen." Yes. No lie, Carrie. People go, "Amen." Yes. And I'm like, "Well, hold on. Wait till And I'm like, "Well, hold on. Wait till And I'm like, "Well, hold on. Wait till I say something." >> That's great. Um, anything else that you >> That's great. Um, anything else that you like when you mentor or train young like when you mentor or train young like when you mentor or train young pastors, what are you telling them? What pastors, what are you telling them? What pastors, what are you telling them? What are you learning right now? Anything are you learning right now? Anything are you learning right now? Anything else before we move on? else before we move on? else before we move on? >> Yeah, I think that you need a burden in >> Yeah, I think that you need a burden in >> Yeah, I think that you need a burden in order to preach. You need a call and you order to preach. You need a call and you order to preach. You need a call and you need a burden. So much of our preaching need a burden. So much of our preaching need a burden. So much of our preaching I feel like doesn't have a burden and I I feel like doesn't have a burden and I I feel like doesn't have a burden and I don't mean like social issues per se don't mean like social issues per se don't mean like social issues per se like you know I think you get a lot of like you know I think you get a lot of like you know I think you get a lot of that and and it has its place but that and and it has its place but that and and it has its place but meaning like every week you know this meaning like every week you know this meaning like every week you know this preacher is beating up people who are preacher is beating up people who are preacher is beating up people who are part of a fraternity or sorority. I I part of a fraternity or sorority. I I part of a fraternity or sorority. I I don't mean that. I what I mean is like don't mean that. I what I mean is like don't mean that. I what I mean is like you care. you care. you care. You really care. You really care. You really care. >> Feel it. >> Feel it. >> Feel it. >> Yeah. and and preaching therefore is not >> Yeah. and and preaching therefore is not >> Yeah. and and preaching therefore is not selfish and it is not a self-centered selfish and it is not a self-centered selfish and it is not a self-centered activity but it is a weight that you activity but it is a weight that you activity but it is a weight that you kind of got to unload. That's what I kind of got to unload. That's what I kind of got to unload. That's what I encourage the preachers who who I'm encourage the preachers who who I'm encourage the preachers who who I'm serving. We go through all the technical serving. We go through all the technical serving. We go through all the technical things but there are some intangibles, things but there are some intangibles, things but there are some intangibles, some immaterials that show up that some immaterials that show up that some immaterials that show up that people can discern and feel. My mother people can discern and feel. My mother people can discern and feel. My mother used to say it goes from breast to used to say it goes from breast to used to say it goes from breast to breast. you you can feel from heart to breast. you you can feel from heart to breast. you you can feel from heart to heart that this person cares and cares heart that this person cares and cares heart that this person cares and cares about you as a representative or

about you as a representative or about you as a representative or mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit. mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit. mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit. >> Well, burden's a great way to segue to >> Well, burden's a great way to segue to >> Well, burden's a great way to segue to your latest book, What Hath justice to your latest book, What Hath justice to your latest book, What Hath justice to do with righteousness? As I was perusing do with righteousness? As I was perusing do with righteousness? As I was perusing through it, I felt a burden, through it, I felt a burden, through it, I felt a burden, >> a real burden. Do you want to give us >> a real burden. Do you want to give us >> a real burden. Do you want to give us the big idea behind it? And then I want the big idea behind it? And then I want the big idea behind it? And then I want to want to talk a little bit about why to want to talk a little bit about why to want to talk a little bit about why you wrote it and what is the message to you wrote it and what is the message to you wrote it and what is the message to the church. the church. the church. >> The big idea is that >> The big idea is that >> The big idea is that justice is the offshoot of righteousness justice is the offshoot of righteousness justice is the offshoot of righteousness and righteousness is the ground swell of and righteousness is the ground swell of and righteousness is the ground swell of justice. That when people ask for justice. That when people ask for justice. That when people ask for justice in the streets, what they're justice in the streets, what they're justice in the streets, what they're asking for is the righteous mind of God asking for is the righteous mind of God asking for is the righteous mind of God to be made manifest. The problem is that to be made manifest. The problem is that to be made manifest. The problem is that at least in our American brand of at least in our American brand of at least in our American brand of Christianity, by and large, the people Christianity, by and large, the people Christianity, by and large, the people have a high view of scripture, high view have a high view of scripture, high view have a high view of scripture, high view of Christ, of Christ, of Christ, the people who claimed righteousness the people who claimed righteousness the people who claimed righteousness have been absent from the justice fight.

have been absent from the justice fight. have been absent from the justice fight. And so now we have a generation And so now we have a generation And so now we have a generation who knows how to protest, but not how to who knows how to protest, but not how to who knows how to protest, but not how to pray. We we have a group that loves to pray. We we have a group that loves to pray. We we have a group that loves to pray but will not protest. And none of pray but will not protest. And none of pray but will not protest. And none of us are divorced from the culture with us are divorced from the culture with us are divorced from the culture with within which we came of age. That has to within which we came of age. That has to within which we came of age. That has to be said and acknowledged. be said and acknowledged. be said and acknowledged. But I think there's a germ in the way But I think there's a germ in the way But I think there's a germ in the way that we are taught righteousness that that we are taught righteousness that that we are taught righteousness that completely leaves out the justice completely leaves out the justice completely leaves out the justice element. And so when I was in seminary, element. And so when I was in seminary, element. And so when I was in seminary, man, I remember going through an entire man, I remember going through an entire man, I remember going through an entire American church history class. I love my American church history class. I love my American church history class. I love my professor. And when the class was over, professor. And when the class was over, professor. And when the class was over, I just raised my hand say, "Hey, man." I just raised my hand say, "Hey, man." I just raised my hand say, "Hey, man." You know, like we had talked at all You know, like we had talked at all You know, like we had talked at all about the civil rights movement. Um, and about the civil rights movement. Um, and about the civil rights movement. Um, and it's like week 14. So, it's like week 14. So, it's like week 14. So, >> and from that point on, he changed the >> and from that point on, he changed the >> and from that point on, he changed the curriculum. Love him to life for this curriculum. Love him to life for this curriculum. Love him to life for this and started to institute it. And so, I and started to institute it. And so, I and started to institute it. And so, I am blown away at how we could love the am blown away at how we could love the am blown away at how we could love the God of righteousness and not see that God of righteousness and not see that God of righteousness and not see that he's the God of justice. So, I started he's the God of justice. So, I started he's the God of justice. So, I started to trace through the scripture, Old to trace through the scripture, Old to trace through the scripture, Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament those words Mishbot and Testament those words Mishbot and Testament those words Mishbot and Sedaka. New Testament diosune the they Sedaka. New Testament diosune the they Sedaka. New Testament diosune the they share a cognate or they are cognate share a cognate or they are cognate share a cognate or they are cognate cousin I should say in the New cousin I should say in the New cousin I should say in the New Testament. But I was shocked in the Old Testament. But I was shocked in the Old Testament. But I was shocked in the Old Testament of how frequently justice and Testament of how frequently justice and Testament of how frequently justice and righteousness and etmologically in terms righteousness and etmologically in terms righteousness and etmologically in terms of words follow one another in tandem of words follow one another in tandem of words follow one another in tandem through the prophets and the poets.

through the prophets and the poets. through the prophets and the poets. It's like they're inseparable It's like they're inseparable It's like they're inseparable Chinese twins. And when you get to the Chinese twins. And when you get to the Chinese twins. And when you get to the New Testament, even Paul in some New Testament, even Paul in some New Testament, even Paul in some respects uses the words interchangeably. respects uses the words interchangeably. respects uses the words interchangeably. So I started to wonder like that's I So I started to wonder like that's I So I started to wonder like that's I think this is my epistle to America think this is my epistle to America think this is my epistle to America right now. That's the throbbing core of right now. That's the throbbing core of right now. That's the throbbing core of the problem we are facing. It is we the problem we are facing. It is we the problem we are facing. It is we cannot call things just that are cannot call things just that are cannot call things just that are unrighteous unrighteous unrighteous and we cannot call things righteous that and we cannot call things righteous that and we cannot call things righteous that are unjust. And somehow in America, are unjust. And somehow in America, are unjust. And somehow in America, we've been able to sanctify injustice, we've been able to sanctify injustice, we've been able to sanctify injustice, to call things that are clearly unjust to call things that are clearly unjust to call things that are clearly unjust and sanction it in the language of the and sanction it in the language of the and sanction it in the language of the church and righteousness. That can no church and righteousness. That can no church and righteousness. That can no longer be. So, I'm hoping that a new longer be. So, I'm hoping that a new longer be. So, I'm hoping that a new generation will pick this up and see generation will pick this up and see generation will pick this up and see that. that. that. >> No, I I really appreciate the message. >> No, I I really appreciate the message. >> No, I I really appreciate the message. For those who might think that those are For those who might think that those are For those who might think that those are interchangeable words, can you delineate interchangeable words, can you delineate interchangeable words, can you delineate the difference when you say the difference when you say the difference when you say righteousness? What do you mean? and righteousness? What do you mean? and righteousness? What do you mean? and justice would justice would justice would >> Yeah. Yeah. So, righteousness is God's >> Yeah. Yeah. So, righteousness is God's >> Yeah. Yeah. So, righteousness is God's sovereign sovereign sovereign supreme standard. It's right thinking, supreme standard. It's right thinking, supreme standard. It's right thinking, right living. In other words, God right living. In other words, God right living. In other words, God reserves the right to say what's right.

reserves the right to say what's right. reserves the right to say what's right. And and it's kingly language in the Old And and it's kingly language in the Old And and it's kingly language in the Old Testament. Testament. Testament. >> People are searching for a king who will >> People are searching for a king who will >> People are searching for a king who will do what's right. It's the power of do what's right. It's the power of do what's right. It's the power of influence to make things equitable. influence to make things equitable. influence to make things equitable. That's huge. That's huge. That's huge. Justice is the outworking of that Justice is the outworking of that Justice is the outworking of that righteousness. So, and I I'll go to righteousness. So, and I I'll go to righteousness. So, and I I'll go to Isaiah 9 in one moment if I may. I got a Isaiah 9 in one moment if I may. I got a Isaiah 9 in one moment if I may. I got a Bible. Can you believe it? Paper Bible. Bible. Can you believe it? Paper Bible. Bible. Can you believe it? Paper Bible. >> You're kidding. Well, good for you. Time >> You're kidding. Well, good for you. Time >> You're kidding. Well, good for you. Time to get started. to get started. to get started. >> So, Isaiah 9, I grew up my whole life >> So, Isaiah 9, I grew up my whole life >> So, Isaiah 9, I grew up my whole life quoting Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child quoting Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child quoting Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the is born, unto us a son is given, and the is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders, government will be upon his shoulders, government will be upon his shoulders, and his name shall be called wonderful and his name shall be called wonderful and his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting counselor, mighty God, everlasting counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace. Now verse seven father, prince of peace. Now verse seven father, prince of peace. Now verse seven is it. His authority shall grow is it. His authority shall grow is it. His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be no end continually, and there shall be no end continually, and there shall be no end or be endless peace for the throne of or be endless peace for the throne of or be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish David and his kingdom. He will establish David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold it with justice and with and uphold it with justice and with and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and righteousness from this time onward and righteousness from this time onward and forever more. At the announcement of the forever more. At the announcement of the forever more. At the announcement of the coming of the Messiah, we get that his coming of the Messiah, we get that his coming of the Messiah, we get that his throne is going to be established on throne is going to be established on throne is going to be established on what core values what core values what core values justice and righteousness. So justice is justice and righteousness. So justice is justice and righteousness. So justice is when the righteousness or the righteous when the righteousness or the righteous when the righteousness or the righteous mind of God goes from a kind of mind of God goes from a kind of mind of God goes from a kind of generally understood maybe even in some generally understood maybe even in some generally understood maybe even in some people's thinking ethereal concept to people's thinking ethereal concept to people's thinking ethereal concept to actual practice in the public square and actual practice in the public square and actual practice in the public square and in our lives in our financial dealings in our lives in our financial dealings in our lives in our financial dealings in our relational dealings in our social

in our relational dealings in our social in our relational dealings in our social constructs. That's the big difference constructs. That's the big difference constructs. That's the big difference between the two. If I'm misrepresenting between the two. If I'm misrepresenting between the two. If I'm misrepresenting this, please nuance it. But I think one this, please nuance it. But I think one this, please nuance it. But I think one of the ways you see it separated in the of the ways you see it separated in the of the ways you see it separated in the evangelical church, and you can see this evangelical church, and you can see this evangelical church, and you can see this a little bit like churches that lean a a little bit like churches that lean a a little bit like churches that lean a little bit more conservative, a little little bit more conservative, a little little bit more conservative, a little bit more liberal, bit more liberal, bit more liberal, >> and it's got, you know, racial >> and it's got, you know, racial >> and it's got, you know, racial implications as well, but people are implications as well, but people are implications as well, but people are concerned about righteousness. It's concerned about righteousness. It's concerned about righteousness. It's like, I'm really concerned about sexual like, I'm really concerned about sexual like, I'm really concerned about sexual purity. I'm really concerned about, you purity. I'm really concerned about, you purity. I'm really concerned about, you know, personal integrity, etc., etc., know, personal integrity, etc., etc., know, personal integrity, etc., etc., but I don't really care about race but I don't really care about race but I don't really care about race relations. I don't really care about, relations. I don't really care about, relations. I don't really care about, you know, sort of those social issues. you know, sort of those social issues. you know, sort of those social issues. And then on the other side, often on the And then on the other side, often on the And then on the other side, often on the progressive side of the church, really progressive side of the church, really progressive side of the church, really care about justice, really care about care about justice, really care about care about justice, really care about economic policy, really care about economic policy, really care about economic policy, really care about racial injustice. But with sexuality, racial injustice. But with sexuality, racial injustice. But with sexuality, whatever goes goes. Am I am I mistaking whatever goes goes. Am I am I mistaking whatever goes goes. Am I am I mistaking it? Is that how we've kind of it? Is that how we've kind of it? Is that how we've kind of characterized and minimized what those characterized and minimized what those characterized and minimized what those terms are? Or feel free to nuance it terms are? Or feel free to nuance it terms are? Or feel free to nuance it because you really go there, because you really go there, because you really go there, >> man. I so appreciate you for um helping >> man. I so appreciate you for um helping >> man. I so appreciate you for um helping to simplify and clarify. I I I think you to simplify and clarify. I I I think you to simplify and clarify. I I I think you have your thumb on on it. It's not the have your thumb on on it. It's not the have your thumb on on it. It's not the all of it, but it is it is it. It's what all of it, but it is it is it. It's what all of it, but it is it is it. It's what Sky Jatani at the Holy Post calls crutch Sky Jatani at the Holy Post calls crutch Sky Jatani at the Holy Post calls crutch Christianity that that we have in Christianity that that we have in Christianity that that we have in America. I hope that's permissible to America. I hope that's permissible to America. I hope that's permissible to say to we have in America like a that's say to we have in America like a that's say to we have in America like a that's where our ethics go.

where our ethics go. where our ethics go. >> That's the summation. And truthfully, it >> That's the summation. And truthfully, it >> That's the summation. And truthfully, it is core. It is essential. It is is core. It is essential. It is is core. It is essential. It is appropriate. I mean, God made us to walk appropriate. I mean, God made us to walk appropriate. I mean, God made us to walk and to steward our sexuality in a and to steward our sexuality in a and to steward our sexuality in a certain way. But when we limit the certain way. But when we limit the certain way. But when we limit the issues of justice to crutch issues of justice to crutch issues of justice to crutch Christianity, we miss the poor, the Christianity, we miss the poor, the Christianity, we miss the poor, the stranger, the marginalized, the orphan. stranger, the marginalized, the orphan. stranger, the marginalized, the orphan. the major themes. Oh, the scales, the the major themes. Oh, the scales, the the major themes. Oh, the scales, the the finances, the major themes that are the finances, the major themes that are the finances, the major themes that are raised uh in in the prophets and and in raised uh in in the prophets and and in raised uh in in the prophets and and in Ezekiel. I mean, there's there are a Ezekiel. I mean, there's there are a Ezekiel. I mean, there's there are a number of passages where even Sodom and number of passages where even Sodom and number of passages where even Sodom and Gomorrah gets hit at for other reasons Gomorrah gets hit at for other reasons Gomorrah gets hit at for other reasons in addition to. So, I I want to be in addition to. So, I I want to be in addition to. So, I I want to be careful and and not say it's less than careful and and not say it's less than careful and and not say it's less than that, but I want to say it's more than that, but I want to say it's more than that, but I want to say it's more than that. And then Carrie, if I may, I want that. And then Carrie, if I may, I want that. And then Carrie, if I may, I want to say the problem is the way we've done to say the problem is the way we've done to say the problem is the way we've done history. And this is a danger we're in history. And this is a danger we're in history. And this is a danger we're in in America right now as some parts of in America right now as some parts of in America right now as some parts of our American cultures trying to ignore our American cultures trying to ignore our American cultures trying to ignore or rewrite history.

or rewrite history. or rewrite history. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The history of American Christianity has >> The history of American Christianity has >> The history of American Christianity has bent toward the empire and people in bent toward the empire and people in bent toward the empire and people in power. So for instance, how in the world power. So for instance, how in the world power. So for instance, how in the world did child slavery ever get sanctioned did child slavery ever get sanctioned did child slavery ever get sanctioned and ordained for hundreds of years by and ordained for hundreds of years by and ordained for hundreds of years by the church in America? Well, because it the church in America? Well, because it the church in America? Well, because it benefited the people in power. And and benefited the people in power. And and benefited the people in power. And and whenever you're in power, you have to be whenever you're in power, you have to be whenever you're in power, you have to be careful. I plead with your listeners to careful. I plead with your listeners to careful. I plead with your listeners to hear me. You have to be careful to check hear me. You have to be careful to check hear me. You have to be careful to check your assumptions against the clarion your assumptions against the clarion your assumptions against the clarion call of scripture because you can make call of scripture because you can make call of scripture because you can make stuff that does matter matter and take stuff that does matter matter and take stuff that does matter matter and take things that do not matter or take things things that do not matter or take things things that do not matter or take things that do matter and treat them like they that do matter and treat them like they that do matter and treat them like they don't matter because it does not benefit don't matter because it does not benefit don't matter because it does not benefit you. America could have the church in you. America could have the church in you. America could have the church in America could have been present and America could have been present and America could have been present and worked for abolition at the beginning. worked for abolition at the beginning. worked for abolition at the beginning. It may child slavery may have never It may child slavery may have never It may child slavery may have never taken off had the church done so. And taken off had the church done so. And taken off had the church done so. And I'm talking about George Whitfield, I'm talking about George Whitfield, I'm talking about George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, The New Divinity, The Jonathan Edwards, The New Divinity, The Jonathan Edwards, The New Divinity, The Great Awakenings. I'm talking about all Great Awakenings. I'm talking about all Great Awakenings. I'm talking about all of them. All of them.

of them. All of them. of them. All of them. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Carrie were absent. Reconstruction fails >> Carrie were absent. Reconstruction fails >> Carrie were absent. Reconstruction fails after 11 years. Where was the strong after 11 years. Where was the strong after 11 years. Where was the strong kind of like you know central kind of like you know central kind of like you know central institutional church voices in America institutional church voices in America institutional church voices in America to turn the gaze of the nation and of to turn the gaze of the nation and of to turn the gaze of the nation and of political leaders to a more just and political leaders to a more just and political leaders to a more just and equitable society. Gone. Civil rights equitable society. Gone. Civil rights equitable society. Gone. Civil rights movement. end of Jim Crow or what we movement. end of Jim Crow or what we movement. end of Jim Crow or what we hoped would have been the end of Jim hoped would have been the end of Jim hoped would have been the end of Jim Crow. Crow. Crow. >> Largely African-American and then Jewish >> Largely African-American and then Jewish >> Largely African-American and then Jewish and then what people might call and then what people might call and then what people might call Protestant liberal groups fighting for Protestant liberal groups fighting for Protestant liberal groups fighting for justice. That kind of core that claim justice. That kind of core that claim justice. That kind of core that claim the righteousness of God, that same the righteousness of God, that same the righteousness of God, that same group whose descendants now are big in group whose descendants now are big in group whose descendants now are big in crutch Christianity, they were largely crutch Christianity, they were largely crutch Christianity, they were largely absent from this. And what I'm saying is absent from this. And what I'm saying is absent from this. And what I'm saying is it's both. it's both. it's both. >> It's it's not one or the other. So I >> It's it's not one or the other. So I >> It's it's not one or the other. So I don't want anybody to hear don't want anybody to hear don't want anybody to hear >> that's what we've done. We've separated >> that's what we've done. We've separated >> that's what we've done. We've separated it. Yeah, it. Yeah, it. Yeah, >> people who care about justice don't care >> people who care about justice don't care >> people who care about justice don't care about righteousness. People who care about righteousness. People who care about righteousness. People who care about righteous tend not to about about righteous tend not to about about righteous tend not to about justice. justice. justice. >> And then some of the people listening to >> And then some of the people listening to >> And then some of the people listening to this might say, "Well, Charlie's one of this might say, "Well, Charlie's one of this might say, "Well, Charlie's one of those guys who then doesn't believe in those guys who then doesn't believe in those guys who then doesn't believe in the matters of sex." And that's not the matters of sex." And that's not the matters of sex." And that's not true. And that's and that's not true of true. And that's and that's not true of true. And that's and that's not true of the historic African-American church I the historic African-American church I the historic African-American church I grew up in, which is why I think this grew up in, which is why I think this grew up in, which is why I think this witness is so powerful because witness is so powerful because witness is so powerful because it's always been all of those issues.

it's always been all of those issues. it's always been all of those issues. And what we do, Carrie, is that we do And what we do, Carrie, is that we do And what we do, Carrie, is that we do theology in our own table, in our own theology in our own table, in our own theology in our own table, in our own echo chamber. And we we work through echo chamber. And we we work through echo chamber. And we we work through doctrine and the relationship and the doctrine and the relationship and the doctrine and the relationship and the formulation of doctrine in our own echo formulation of doctrine in our own echo formulation of doctrine in our own echo chamber rather than rounding it out with chamber rather than rounding it out with chamber rather than rounding it out with the rich robust uh angle and view of the the rich robust uh angle and view of the the rich robust uh angle and view of the church so that people can talk church so that people can talk church so that people can talk today, if I may. um at and and we'll today, if I may. um at and and we'll today, if I may. um at and and we'll scratch this so I'm going to pause in scratch this so I'm going to pause in scratch this so I'm going to pause in case it it doesn't need to make it. But case it it doesn't need to make it. But case it it doesn't need to make it. But you know there was a there was a UFC you know there was a there was a UFC you know there was a there was a UFC fight at the White House recently and fight at the White House recently and fight at the White House recently and and the one of the fighters got up and and the one of the fighters got up and and the one of the fighters got up and he said that a former first lady was a he said that a former first lady was a he said that a former first lady was a man. Looked like a man was a man. man. Looked like a man was a man. man. Looked like a man was a man. Completely disrespectful and wrong. But Completely disrespectful and wrong. But Completely disrespectful and wrong. But at that same fighter in that same at that same fighter in that same at that same fighter in that same interview with Joe Rogan said but I want interview with Joe Rogan said but I want interview with Joe Rogan said but I want to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now, he does not represent the Christ. Now, he does not represent the Christ. Now, he does not represent the totality of American Christianity. I totality of American Christianity. I totality of American Christianity. I want to be super clear. But I just want to be super clear. But I just want to be super clear. But I just wonder where are the white pastors wonder where are the white pastors wonder where are the white pastors who have black people going to their who have black people going to their who have black people going to their churches who see that and understand churches who see that and understand churches who see that and understand that is wrong. Where is their courage that is wrong. Where is their courage that is wrong. Where is their courage now to step up and to say that's not now to step up and to say that's not now to step up and to say that's not right? Even if your take on right? Even if your take on right? Even if your take on righteousness pushes you toward a righteousness pushes you toward a righteousness pushes you toward a particular political persuasion or particular political persuasion or particular political persuasion or party, that's wrong. And and I think party, that's wrong. And and I think party, that's wrong. And and I think that's what Amos is after, if I may. In that's what Amos is after, if I may. In that's what Amos is after, if I may. In the entire that single sermon that makes the entire that single sermon that makes the entire that single sermon that makes up the book of Amos. It is that the up the book of Amos. It is that the up the book of Amos. It is that the people of God are wrong. It's not the

people of God are wrong. It's not the people of God are wrong. It's not the culture is wrong. It's not that the culture is wrong. It's not that the culture is wrong. It's not that the artist industry is wrong. It's the artist industry is wrong. It's the artist industry is wrong. It's the people of God have lost their minds. He people of God have lost their minds. He people of God have lost their minds. He calls them cows. They have calls them cows. They have calls them cows. They have >> cowsation. He tests their minds and and >> cowsation. He tests their minds and and >> cowsation. He tests their minds and and he's saying you are so anxious for this he's saying you are so anxious for this he's saying you are so anxious for this yom ye this day of the Lord this great yom ye this day of the Lord this great yom ye this day of the Lord this great judgment but you don't realize his judgment but you don't realize his judgment but you don't realize his judgment is coming for you and it's not judgment is coming for you and it's not judgment is coming for you and it's not cuz you don't have the temple. It's not cuz you don't have the temple. It's not cuz you don't have the temple. It's not cuz you don't have the songs. It's cuz cuz you don't have the songs. It's cuz cuz you don't have the songs. It's cuz you forsaken justice. you forsaken justice. you forsaken justice. So we can go there if you want. We get a So we can go there if you want. We get a So we can go there if you want. We get a lot of mail. You probably get a lot of lot of mail. You probably get a lot of lot of mail. You probably get a lot of mail. I read the comments. mail. I read the comments. mail. I read the comments. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Have a lot of conversations. So, >> Have a lot of conversations. So, >> Have a lot of conversations. So, let's say, first of all, I think there'd let's say, first of all, I think there'd let's say, first of all, I think there'd be a lot of church leaders, I won't put be a lot of church leaders, I won't put be a lot of church leaders, I won't put a race to it, who would say, "No big a race to it, who would say, "No big a race to it, who would say, "No big deal. That was just a UFC fight. We're deal. That was just a UFC fight. We're deal. That was just a UFC fight. We're going to leave it alone, going to leave it alone, going to leave it alone, >> right?" >> right?" >> right?" >> Others would hear it and have your >> Others would hear it and have your >> Others would hear it and have your reaction like, "You know what? No, reaction like, "You know what? No, reaction like, "You know what? No, >> that's not Christianity. That's not >> that's not Christianity. That's not >> that's not Christianity. That's not fair. That's not fair. That's not fair. That's not >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I I didn't see the fight. I didn't >> And I I didn't see the fight. I didn't >> And I I didn't see the fight. I didn't see the interview to be fair." But you see the interview to be fair." But you see the interview to be fair." But you could pick any cultural hot button could pick any cultural hot button could pick any cultural hot button issue.

issue. issue. >> Sure. And so let's just assume the >> Sure. And so let's just assume the >> Sure. And so let's just assume the pastor's conscience is stirred. pastor's conscience is stirred. pastor's conscience is stirred. But he or she wants to get up there now, But he or she wants to get up there now, But he or she wants to get up there now, Charlie. Charlie. Charlie. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's like, I know what's going to >> It's like, I know what's going to >> It's like, I know what's going to happen. I'm going to have happen. I'm going to have happen. I'm going to have >> 5% of my church furious at me because I >> 5% of my church furious at me because I >> 5% of my church furious at me because I said something. said something. said something. >> I'm going to have a key donor pull out. >> I'm going to have a key donor pull out. >> I'm going to have a key donor pull out. >> I'm going to have a staff member get mad >> I'm going to have a staff member get mad >> I'm going to have a staff member get mad at me because I didn't say it the right at me because I didn't say it the right at me because I didn't say it the right way. I've talked to black pastor. I've way. I've talked to black pastor. I've way. I've talked to black pastor. I've talked to white pastors. I've talked to talked to white pastors. I've talked to talked to white pastors. I've talked to other pastors. other pastors. other pastors. >> Yeah. One guy told me in Florida, >> Yeah. One guy told me in Florida, >> Yeah. One guy told me in Florida, pastor, black pastor, he's like when he pastor, black pastor, he's like when he pastor, black pastor, he's like when he got up around Charlie Kirk to talk, he got up around Charlie Kirk to talk, he got up around Charlie Kirk to talk, he was too black and too white. was too black and too white. was too black and too white. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> At the same time, he was too black, not >> At the same time, he was too black, not >> At the same time, he was too black, not black enough. Like you just black enough. Like you just black enough. Like you just >> We're in a culture right now >> We're in a culture right now >> We're in a culture right now >> where a lot of pastors are afraid >> where a lot of pastors are afraid >> where a lot of pastors are afraid because I'm like, if I start waiting because I'm like, if I start waiting because I'm like, if I start waiting into that stuff, I just can't win. So, into that stuff, I just can't win. So, into that stuff, I just can't win. So, I'm just going to be quiet. I'm going to I'm just going to be quiet. I'm going to I'm just going to be quiet. I'm going to preach out of uh preach out of uh preach out of uh >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh some other less offensive passage. >> Uh some other less offensive passage. >> Uh some other less offensive passage. >> Yeah. Well, if the goal is winning, then >> Yeah. Well, if the goal is winning, then >> Yeah. Well, if the goal is winning, then they're right. they're right. they're right. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> I I think we have a higher, heavier, >> I I think we have a higher, heavier, >> I I think we have a higher, heavier, loftier goal.

loftier goal. loftier goal. >> And I will tell you, so we had this big >> And I will tell you, so we had this big >> And I will tell you, so we had this big migrant crisis in Chicago, right? The migrant crisis in Chicago, right? The migrant crisis in Chicago, right? The governor of Texas is is sending migrants governor of Texas is is sending migrants governor of Texas is is sending migrants by the bus loads and they even flew a by the bus loads and they even flew a by the bus loads and they even flew a plane in to O'Hare and no coordination plane in to O'Hare and no coordination plane in to O'Hare and no coordination with the city. Just making a point. with the city. Just making a point. with the city. Just making a point. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> Who? Texas. >> Who? Texas. >> Who? Texas. >> Say that again. >> Say that again. >> Say that again. >> Who did you say was doing that? >> Who did you say was doing that? >> Who did you say was doing that? >> The governor of Texas. >> The governor of Texas. >> The governor of Texas. >> The governor of Texas. Okay. Another >> The governor of Texas. Okay. Another >> The governor of Texas. Okay. Another story I'm not aware of. Okay. story I'm not aware of. Okay. story I'm not aware of. Okay. >> Yeah. So this is back 2023 >> Yeah. So this is back 2023 >> Yeah. So this is back 2023 thereabout I think and just sending them thereabout I think and just sending them thereabout I think and just sending them using people as pawns. It's a political using people as pawns. It's a political using people as pawns. It's a political issue. issue. issue. >> So anyway that Christmas >> So anyway that Christmas >> So anyway that Christmas I I I take a different angle on the the birth take a different angle on the the birth take a different angle on the the birth narrative and I argue narrative and I argue narrative and I argue you know that Jesus is a migrant. Out of you know that Jesus is a migrant. Out of you know that Jesus is a migrant. Out of Egypt I've called my son. Egypt I've called my son. Egypt I've called my son. But what you do not know is that black But what you do not know is that black But what you do not know is that black people in Chicago were taking tremendous people in Chicago were taking tremendous people in Chicago were taking tremendous offense at how much care these migrants offense at how much care these migrants offense at how much care these migrants were receiving and and that other people were receiving and and that other people were receiving and and that other people groups were not. So my own groups were not. So my own groups were not. So my own congregation congregation congregation set quiet on me while I made that set quiet on me while I made that set quiet on me while I made that argument that the foreigner and the argument that the foreigner and the argument that the foreigner and the stranger matter to God. Now I wasn't stranger matter to God. Now I wasn't stranger matter to God. Now I wasn't taking like a we should do this, we taking like a we should do this, we taking like a we should do this, we should do that. I was just raising a should do that. I was just raising a should do that. I was just raising a moral point from the scripture. Even moral point from the scripture. Even moral point from the scripture. Even Jesus had to get out and get away and Jesus had to get out and get away and Jesus had to get out and get away and come back. Whatever you want to call it, come back. Whatever you want to call it, come back. Whatever you want to call it, but I wasn't preaching for them to like but I wasn't preaching for them to like but I wasn't preaching for them to like me. And all right, so now I might be too

me. And all right, so now I might be too me. And all right, so now I might be too bold, but I'm going to say it. I've seen bold, but I'm going to say it. I've seen bold, but I'm going to say it. I've seen people walk from this church, from the people walk from this church, from the people walk from this church, from the Progressive Baptist Church, who were Progressive Baptist Church, who were Progressive Baptist Church, who were giving hundreds of thousands of dollars giving hundreds of thousands of dollars giving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I'm not talking about like as a a year. I'm not talking about like as a a year. I'm not talking about like as a group. I mean, a few folk and they left. group. I mean, a few folk and they left. group. I mean, a few folk and they left. God replaced. God replaced. God replaced. >> They were mad at you. >> They were mad at you. >> They were mad at you. >> Oh, yeah. Cuz cuz they were mad at >> Oh, yeah. Cuz cuz they were mad at >> Oh, yeah. Cuz cuz they were mad at something I said. And And let me tell something I said. And And let me tell something I said. And And let me tell you, I'm not sitting here like the day you, I'm not sitting here like the day you, I'm not sitting here like the day that they told me they were leaving that that they told me they were leaving that that they told me they were leaving that I was happy. No, I probably laid down on I was happy. No, I probably laid down on I was happy. No, I probably laid down on the couch for about 3 hours. And and the couch for about 3 hours. And and the couch for about 3 hours. And and then uh Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at then uh Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at then uh Pastor Jeffrey Johnson down at Eastern Star in Indianapolis, he said to Eastern Star in Indianapolis, he said to Eastern Star in Indianapolis, he said to me, "Charlie, the money comes from God." me, "Charlie, the money comes from God." me, "Charlie, the money comes from God." He said it does not come from the people He said it does not come from the people He said it does not come from the people you man was if that wasn't true. I don't you man was if that wasn't true. I don't you man was if that wasn't true. I don't know what is. When I tell you God has know what is. When I tell you God has know what is. When I tell you God has replaced that and then some. So you so replaced that and then some. So you so replaced that and then some. So you so the the real audience for approval the the real audience for approval the the real audience for approval >> has to be the one who wrote the book >> has to be the one who wrote the book >> has to be the one who wrote the book >> and and not our kind of tribes that we >> and and not our kind of tribes that we >> and and not our kind of tribes that we seek to satisfy. Now some people might seek to satisfy. Now some people might seek to satisfy. Now some people might say, "Well, I mean that's easier for you say, "Well, I mean that's easier for you say, "Well, I mean that's easier for you to say because you're a black preacher to say because you're a black preacher to say because you're a black preacher in a black church in Chicago." Maybe.

in a black church in Chicago." Maybe. in a black church in Chicago." Maybe. But wouldn't America be better if it But wouldn't America be better if it But wouldn't America be better if it wasn't just black preachers and black wasn't just black preachers and black wasn't just black preachers and black churches talking through this? I churches talking through this? I churches talking through this? I fundament and I almost wish like I had fundament and I almost wish like I had fundament and I almost wish like I had enough money. I would say to that enough money. I would say to that enough money. I would say to that pastor, come work here. We'll hold you. pastor, come work here. We'll hold you. pastor, come work here. We'll hold you. We we'll help we'll help you get set up. We we'll help we'll help you get set up. We we'll help we'll help you get set up. But but we are not trained to be But but we are not trained to be But but we are not trained to be courageous. courageous. courageous. We're like commercial airline pilots. We We're like commercial airline pilots. We We're like commercial airline pilots. We do all we can to avoid turbulence do all we can to avoid turbulence do all we can to avoid turbulence versus just recognizing it's part of the versus just recognizing it's part of the versus just recognizing it's part of the flying experience. And so, flying experience. And so, flying experience. And so, >> wow, >> wow, >> wow, >> let's just get through it. >> There's so much there, Charlie. >> There's so much there, Charlie. >> What one of the other things that occurs >> What one of the other things that occurs >> What one of the other things that occurs to me as we talk about this? There's to me as we talk about this? There's to me as we talk about this? There's there's fear and then there's also a there's fear and then there's also a there's fear and then there's also a blindness to the situation, not actually blindness to the situation, not actually blindness to the situation, not actually seeing our culture accurately. We might seeing our culture accurately. We might seeing our culture accurately. We might say, "Yeah, I'm I'm great on justice." say, "Yeah, I'm I'm great on justice." say, "Yeah, I'm I'm great on justice." but then get really upset about but then get really upset about but then get really upset about immigration or really upset about some immigration or really upset about some immigration or really upset about some economic policy or that our particular economic policy or that our particular economic policy or that our particular tax bracket is going to have to pay a tax bracket is going to have to pay a tax bracket is going to have to pay a little bit more.

little bit more. little bit more. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> To increase the social safety net or >> To increase the social safety net or >> To increase the social safety net or whatever that might be. whatever that might be. whatever that might be. >> But there's something that I've been >> But there's something that I've been >> But there's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. thinking about a lot lately. thinking about a lot lately. Chronological snobbery. Chronological snobbery. Chronological snobbery. >> So the general thesis of chronological >> So the general thesis of chronological >> So the general thesis of chronological snobbery is, you know, I was a little snobbery is, you know, I was a little snobbery is, you know, I was a little kid in the 60s. You were not alive in kid in the 60s. You were not alive in kid in the 60s. You were not alive in the 60s. But if we had been there, the 60s. But if we had been there, the 60s. But if we had been there, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> we would have been on the side of ending >> we would have been on the side of ending >> we would have been on the side of ending desegregation. If I had lived in 19th desegregation. If I had lived in 19th desegregation. If I had lived in 19th century America, I would not have owned century America, I would not have owned century America, I would not have owned slaves. slaves. slaves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If I was in 1930s Germany, >> If I was in 1930s Germany, >> If I was in 1930s Germany, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I would have hidden the Jews and rescued >> I would have hidden the Jews and rescued >> I would have hidden the Jews and rescued them. them. them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And statistically, that's not true. >> And statistically, that's not true. >> And statistically, that's not true. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's not true. like the vast majority of >> It's not true. like the vast majority of >> It's not true. like the vast majority of of of people in the 1930s watch what was of of people in the 1930s watch what was of of people in the 1930s watch what was going on with eugenics and everything going on with eugenics and everything going on with eugenics and everything and were either silent or complicit and and were either silent or complicit and and were either silent or complicit and the same is true history. So we kind of the same is true history. So we kind of the same is true history. So we kind of make ourselves heroes historically and make ourselves heroes historically and make ourselves heroes historically and we and and the left is guilty of this we and and the left is guilty of this we and and the left is guilty of this and the right is guilty of this and the right is guilty of this and the right is guilty of this >> and we think we're the you know what >> and we think we're the you know what >> and we think we're the you know what Charlie I'm the most enlightened human Charlie I'm the most enlightened human Charlie I'm the most enlightened human who has ever lived.

who has ever lived. who has ever lived. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> And I would never have made those >> And I would never have made those >> And I would never have made those mistakes. If you look at that Old mistakes. If you look at that Old mistakes. If you look at that Old Testament, people killing each other and Testament, people killing each other and Testament, people killing each other and plundering and stealing like I'm I'm plundering and stealing like I'm I'm plundering and stealing like I'm I'm incapable of that. incapable of that. incapable of that. >> And yet >> And yet >> And yet we look around and if I really audit my we look around and if I really audit my we look around and if I really audit my life, what am I complicit in today? life, what am I complicit in today? life, what am I complicit in today? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I don't know. Any thoughts about >> I don't know. Any thoughts about >> I don't know. Any thoughts about chronological snobbery or how we think? chronological snobbery or how we think? chronological snobbery or how we think? >> I have a lot of them. >> I have a lot of them. >> I have a lot of them. >> Oh, well, I want to hear. >> Oh, well, I want to hear. >> Oh, well, I want to hear. >> Well, I think one of the challenges, >> Well, I think one of the challenges, >> Well, I think one of the challenges, first of all, I want to affirm what first of all, I want to affirm what first of all, I want to affirm what you're saying. M you're saying. M you're saying. M >> we are all capable of doing the very >> we are all capable of doing the very >> we are all capable of doing the very thing we hate in other people. thing we hate in other people. thing we hate in other people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Some some respects we could say given >> Some some respects we could say given >> Some some respects we could say given the right circumstances we might be the right circumstances we might be the right circumstances we might be likely to do the very thing we hate in likely to do the very thing we hate in likely to do the very thing we hate in other people. other people. other people. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> The challenge with chronological >> The challenge with chronological >> The challenge with chronological snobbery is snobbery is snobbery is even with the numbers the percentages is even with the numbers the percentages is even with the numbers the percentages is the neglect the neglect the neglect of reading the people who did get it of reading the people who did get it of reading the people who did get it right during those periods. So you have right during those periods. So you have right during those periods. So you have large people groups who did see it as large people groups who did see it as large people groups who did see it as wrong wrong wrong >> during that period and and they did >> during that period and and they did >> during that period and and they did stand with it. So I'll give you an stand with it. So I'll give you an stand with it. So I'll give you an example. Fred Shuddlesworth is down example. Fred Shuddlesworth is down example. Fred Shuddlesworth is down right outside of Birmingham, right on right outside of Birmingham, right on right outside of Birmingham, right on other side of the tracks and he's other side of the tracks and he's other side of the tracks and he's pleading with Dr. King to come to pleading with Dr. King to come to pleading with Dr. King to come to Birmingham because Bull Connor, Sunday Birmingham because Bull Connor, Sunday Birmingham because Bull Connor, Sunday school teacher, public safety school teacher, public safety school teacher, public safety commissioner is wreaking havoc uh in commissioner is wreaking havoc uh in commissioner is wreaking havoc uh in Birmingham. Well, when they coordinate, Birmingham. Well, when they coordinate, Birmingham. Well, when they coordinate, Dr. comes, they actually end up running Dr. comes, they actually end up running Dr. comes, they actually end up running the protest through the 16th Street the protest through the 16th Street the protest through the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, which is Baptist Church in Birmingham, which is Baptist Church in Birmingham, which is now this storied church across from

now this storied church across from now this storied church across from Kelly Ingram Park. Well, Carrie, the Kelly Ingram Park. Well, Carrie, the Kelly Ingram Park. Well, Carrie, the pastor at 16th Avenue, didn't want Dr. pastor at 16th Avenue, didn't want Dr. pastor at 16th Avenue, didn't want Dr. King and and the whole civil rights King and and the whole civil rights King and and the whole civil rights movement to launch any campaigns from movement to launch any campaigns from movement to launch any campaigns from his church. Fred Shuddlesworth was the his church. Fred Shuddlesworth was the his church. Fred Shuddlesworth was the poor, untrained poor, untrained poor, untrained preacher in the impoverished part of preacher in the impoverished part of preacher in the impoverished part of town. town. town. The pastor 16th Street has the upwardly The pastor 16th Street has the upwardly The pastor 16th Street has the upwardly mobile uh elite kind of black crowd who mobile uh elite kind of black crowd who mobile uh elite kind of black crowd who just wants to go along to get along. In just wants to go along to get along. In just wants to go along to get along. In every era or iteration of history that every era or iteration of history that every era or iteration of history that you just referred to from the 1930s to you just referred to from the 1930s to you just referred to from the 1930s to let's say child slavery to the civil let's say child slavery to the civil let's say child slavery to the civil rights move to the 60s rights move to the 60s rights move to the 60s there were people who got it right. there were people who got it right. there were people who got it right. >> Yeah. And the question in chronological >> Yeah. And the question in chronological >> Yeah. And the question in chronological snobbery is what did those people see? snobbery is what did those people see? snobbery is what did those people see? >> And and that's that's what I'm after. >> And and that's that's what I'm after. >> And and that's that's what I'm after. And I think this is where And I think this is where And I think this is where so when you read um who was I reading so when you read um who was I reading so when you read um who was I reading recently? I read the biography of recently? I read the biography of recently? I read the biography of Clarence Jones Clarence Jones Clarence Jones um who was talking about he was Martin um who was talking about he was Martin um who was talking about he was Martin King's personal attorney and he was King's personal attorney and he was King's personal attorney and he was talking about some of the stories of the talking about some of the stories of the talking about some of the stories of the black people who worked in the homes as black people who worked in the homes as black people who worked in the homes as domestic servants of whites in domestic servants of whites in domestic servants of whites in Montgomery.

Montgomery. Montgomery. And a number of those and I think Brian And a number of those and I think Brian And a number of those and I think Brian Stevenson has some of this down at the Stevenson has some of this down at the Stevenson has some of this down at the Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery. A Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery. A Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery. A number of those wealthy white people number of those wealthy white people number of those wealthy white people were sneaking money were sneaking money were sneaking money to their domestic servants to help fund to their domestic servants to help fund to their domestic servants to help fund the bus boycott. the bus boycott. the bus boycott. >> They had to pay for gas. They had to pay >> They had to pay for gas. They had to pay >> They had to pay for gas. They had to pay for the use of cars. So, watch this. for the use of cars. So, watch this. for the use of cars. So, watch this. These wealthier white people, they're These wealthier white people, they're These wealthier white people, they're going to church. They're working their going to church. They're working their going to church. They're working their corporate jobs. They're this that and corporate jobs. They're this that and corporate jobs. They're this that and the other. This is the benefit of the other. This is the benefit of the other. This is the benefit of history and and of accessing it. But history and and of accessing it. But history and and of accessing it. But they knew something was wrong. they knew something was wrong. they knew something was wrong. >> Yeah. And so they were quietly giving >> Yeah. And so they were quietly giving >> Yeah. And so they were quietly giving this is before online giving because you this is before online giving because you this is before online giving because you know they had been found out online know they had been found out online know they had been found out online giving but they are putting money in the giving but they are putting money in the giving but they are putting money in the hands of their domestic servants. hands of their domestic servants. hands of their domestic servants. So I I don't know the story of every So I I don't know the story of every So I I don't know the story of every kind of chronological snobbery piece but kind of chronological snobbery piece but kind of chronological snobbery piece but I do know that there were people who I do know that there were people who I do know that there were people who were complicit who understood it was were complicit who understood it was were complicit who understood it was wrong at the time wrong at the time wrong at the time >> and who did their part to make it >> and who did their part to make it >> and who did their part to make it better. better. better. >> Did their part to make it better. And >> Did their part to make it better. And >> Did their part to make it better. And what I'm saying is I wonder if we could what I'm saying is I wonder if we could what I'm saying is I wonder if we could if we could give more money publicly if we could give more money publicly if we could give more money publicly using that illustration. If rather than using that illustration. If rather than using that illustration. If rather than just sliding money through and so as not just sliding money through and so as not just sliding money through and so as not to suffer the public scrutiny or shame, to suffer the public scrutiny or shame, to suffer the public scrutiny or shame, if we could just stand up and say if we could just stand up and say if we could just stand up and say something is wrong. Now let me talk from something is wrong. Now let me talk from something is wrong. Now let me talk from from a pastor's perspective where I am.

from a pastor's perspective where I am. from a pastor's perspective where I am. Nothing few things do my heart as good Nothing few things do my heart as good Nothing few things do my heart as good as a preacher of the gospel when some of as a preacher of the gospel when some of as a preacher of the gospel when some of these issues arise. when another these issues arise. when another these issues arise. when another nonblack preacher of the gospel stands nonblack preacher of the gospel stands nonblack preacher of the gospel stands up and says that was wrong or this up and says that was wrong or this up and says that was wrong or this matter is right, I'm encouraged as the matter is right, I'm encouraged as the matter is right, I'm encouraged as the one who's leading our people by the one who's leading our people by the one who's leading our people by the faithful fellowship of others on the faithful fellowship of others on the faithful fellowship of others on the other side who get wrong. And I think other side who get wrong. And I think other side who get wrong. And I think all Dr. King wanted, for instance, when all Dr. King wanted, for instance, when all Dr. King wanted, for instance, when he wrote that letter from a Birmingham he wrote that letter from a Birmingham he wrote that letter from a Birmingham jail was for those white clergy members jail was for those white clergy members jail was for those white clergy members to acknowledge that something was wrong to acknowledge that something was wrong to acknowledge that something was wrong and they they didn't need to take and they they didn't need to take and they they didn't need to take >> they didn't have to solve it. >> they didn't have to solve it. >> they didn't have to solve it. >> Yeah. Well, and and they didn't need to >> Yeah. Well, and and they didn't need to >> Yeah. Well, and and they didn't need to act like it was going to take forever to act like it was going to take forever to act like it was going to take forever to fix. fix. fix. >> But if I may say, sometimes white >> But if I may say, sometimes white >> But if I may say, sometimes white pastors leave black pastors out to dry pastors leave black pastors out to dry pastors leave black pastors out to dry because they won't stand for stuff they because they won't stand for stuff they because they won't stand for stuff they know is right. you just leave it up to know is right. you just leave it up to know is right. you just leave it up to us to do that. us to do that. us to do that. >> Charlie, I I really appreciate you >> Charlie, I I really appreciate you >> Charlie, I I really appreciate you saying that and I think that is really saying that and I think that is really saying that and I think that is really good to take to heart. I mean, you think good to take to heart. I mean, you think good to take to heart. I mean, you think about the courage Dietrich Bonhaofer had about the courage Dietrich Bonhaofer had about the courage Dietrich Bonhaofer had in the Second World War or other leaders in the Second World War or other leaders in the Second World War or other leaders >> had. I talked to a couple of um white >> had. I talked to a couple of um white >> had. I talked to a couple of um white evangelical pastors evangelical pastors evangelical pastors >> on this podcast. I don't want to name >> on this podcast. I don't want to name >> on this podcast. I don't want to name them them them >> uh because I want to go back and make >> uh because I want to go back and make >> uh because I want to go back and make sure I've got this 100% right. But I sure I've got this 100% right. But I sure I've got this 100% right. But I know I've had conversations with leaders know I've had conversations with leaders know I've had conversations with leaders who have now passed or were very active who have now passed or were very active who have now passed or were very active in ministry in the 60s. And what we in ministry in the 60s. And what we in ministry in the 60s. And what we don't realize as much today is that Dr.

don't realize as much today is that Dr. don't realize as much today is that Dr. King was a very controversial figure. King was a very controversial figure. King was a very controversial figure. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> In the 60s. >> In the 60s. >> In the 60s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And probably in the 60s was hated by >> And probably in the 60s was hated by >> And probably in the 60s was hated by more Americans than he was loved by more Americans than he was loved by more Americans than he was loved by Americans. Americans. Americans. And you know, they they look back on it And you know, they they look back on it And you know, they they look back on it and they look back on their fear. and they look back on their fear. and they look back on their fear. Exactly what we're feeling now. Exactly what we're feeling now. Exactly what we're feeling now. >> And what they've told me is, >> And what they've told me is, >> And what they've told me is, >> I wish I had said more and I wish I had >> I wish I had said more and I wish I had >> I wish I had said more and I wish I had done more. done more. done more. >> And it's not like they were >> And it's not like they were >> And it's not like they were >> opposed to Dr. King, >> opposed to Dr. King, >> opposed to Dr. King, >> but they were quietly in the corner. >> but they were quietly in the corner. >> but they were quietly in the corner. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But not publicly affirming. And then >> But not publicly affirming. And then >> But not publicly affirming. And then there's another writer. I mean, you've there's another writer. I mean, you've there's another writer. I mean, you've kind of our show notes are going to be kind of our show notes are going to be kind of our show notes are going to be 600 pages with all the people that 600 pages with all the people that 600 pages with all the people that you've referenced so far. You're so well you've referenced so far. You're so well you've referenced so far. You're so well read, Charlie. But I love Morgan House read, Charlie. But I love Morgan House read, Charlie. But I love Morgan House stuff. I don't know whether you know stuff. I don't know whether you know stuff. I don't know whether you know him. He's a him. He's a him. He's a >> I >> I >> I >> he writes a lot about economics and he >> he writes a lot about economics and he >> he writes a lot about economics and he he has he said this a few times. I think he has he said this a few times. I think he has he said this a few times. I think this is in his latest book, The Art of this is in his latest book, The Art of this is in his latest book, The Art of Spending Money, Spending Money, Spending Money, >> but he talks about incentives being the >> but he talks about incentives being the >> but he talks about incentives being the most powerful motivator most powerful motivator most powerful motivator >> in human life. So I want to give you a >> in human life. So I want to give you a >> in human life. So I want to give you a very crass example. Right now you and I very crass example. Right now you and I very crass example. Right now you and I are both employed, so to speak, in are both employed, so to speak, in are both employed, so to speak, in ministry, in public ministry.

ministry, in public ministry. ministry, in public ministry. >> Absolutely. Yep. >> Absolutely. Yep. >> Absolutely. Yep. >> I have an incentive >> I have an incentive >> I have an incentive >> to be faithful to my wife. >> to be faithful to my wife. >> to be faithful to my wife. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because guess what? If I'm not >> Because guess what? If I'm not >> Because guess what? If I'm not >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It all comes tumbling down, right? Like >> It all comes tumbling down, right? Like >> It all comes tumbling down, right? Like I'm going to lose my job and people tune I'm going to lose my job and people tune I'm going to lose my job and people tune me out. me out. me out. >> I have an incentive to be a law-abiding >> I have an incentive to be a law-abiding >> I have an incentive to be a law-abiding citizen. citizen. citizen. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um because if I go to jail, once again, >> Um because if I go to jail, once again, >> Um because if I go to jail, once again, it all comes crashing down. And he says, it all comes crashing down. And he says, it all comes crashing down. And he says, you know, if you grew up with very you know, if you grew up with very you know, if you grew up with very different um circumstances, you might different um circumstances, you might different um circumstances, you might have different incentives. incentives to have different incentives. incentives to have different incentives. incentives to turn to crime early on, incentives to do turn to crime early on, incentives to do turn to crime early on, incentives to do other things. He's talking about what other things. He's talking about what other things. He's talking about what happens in in great economic dislocation happens in in great economic dislocation happens in in great economic dislocation because you're like, "Well, I could because you're like, "Well, I could because you're like, "Well, I could never." never." never." >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Reality is I probably could and you >> Reality is I probably could and you >> Reality is I probably could and you probably could, probably could, probably could, >> but the incentives keep us locked in. >> but the incentives keep us locked in. >> but the incentives keep us locked in. And when you where I'm going with this And when you where I'm going with this And when you where I'm going with this argument is, you know, a lot of us are argument is, you know, a lot of us are argument is, you know, a lot of us are incentivized to keep quiet because it incentivized to keep quiet because it incentivized to keep quiet because it buys the peace. M buys the peace. M buys the peace. M >> we think it buys the piece, >> we think it buys the piece, >> we think it buys the piece, >> you know, but I I just any thoughts on >> you know, but I I just any thoughts on >> you know, but I I just any thoughts on on that when when leaders back to sort on that when when leaders back to sort on that when when leaders back to sort of the fear thing of the fear thing of the fear thing >> and the incentives that make you want to >> and the incentives that make you want to >> and the incentives that make you want to do more of the same or like I just don't do more of the same or like I just don't do more of the same or like I just don't preach about that stuff or I don't talk preach about that stuff or I don't talk preach about that stuff or I don't talk about that stuff.

about that stuff. about that stuff. >> Well, well, I will say historically in >> Well, well, I will say historically in >> Well, well, I will say historically in the way you led into that, Billy Graham the way you led into that, Billy Graham the way you led into that, Billy Graham was one of those preachers who wish he was one of those preachers who wish he was one of those preachers who wish he had done more. I mean, when you study had done more. I mean, when you study had done more. I mean, when you study his writing at the Billy Graham his writing at the Billy Graham his writing at the Billy Graham Institute at Weeden, you hear Ed Stzzer Institute at Weeden, you hear Ed Stzzer Institute at Weeden, you hear Ed Stzzer talk about it. It's it's just on record talk about it. It's it's just on record talk about it. It's it's just on record in his writings. He wished in his writings. He wished in his writings. He wished >> that he had done more. And and in the >> that he had done more. And and in the >> that he had done more. And and in the book, you know, I talk about Billy book, you know, I talk about Billy book, you know, I talk about Billy Graham and then Dr. King as a kind of Graham and then Dr. King as a kind of Graham and then Dr. King as a kind of juosition. juosition. juosition. Um, but if you've got Um, but if you've got Um, but if you've got America's preacher, right, which is what America's preacher, right, which is what America's preacher, right, which is what Billy Graham very likely is. You got Billy Graham very likely is. You got Billy Graham very likely is. You got America's preacher looking back on his America's preacher looking back on his America's preacher looking back on his life saying, "I knew Dr. King. I had life saying, "I knew Dr. King. I had life saying, "I knew Dr. King. I had conversations with him, meal time with conversations with him, meal time with conversations with him, meal time with him, had him at my New York crusade, him, had him at my New York crusade, him, had him at my New York crusade, and I wish that I had done more. You and I wish that I had done more. You and I wish that I had done more. You have to ask the incentive question have to ask the incentive question have to ask the incentive question because here's a man who had proximity because here's a man who had proximity because here's a man who had proximity to every president and every corner of to every president and every corner of to every president and every corner of the world where he took the gospel. the world where he took the gospel. the world where he took the gospel. and he had to calculate and he had to calculate and he had to calculate how much of this will I lose if if I do how much of this will I lose if if I do how much of this will I lose if if I do it. But in the rear view mirror of his it. But in the rear view mirror of his it. But in the rear view mirror of his ministry, ministry, ministry, it's as if he says, "I would have risked it's as if he says, "I would have risked it's as if he says, "I would have risked it."

it." it." In the final analysis, when it's all In the final analysis, when it's all In the final analysis, when it's all said and done, said and done, said and done, even having gained international even having gained international even having gained international acclaim, I would have risked it. acclaim, I would have risked it. acclaim, I would have risked it. That to me is enough because That to me is enough because That to me is enough because faith is synonymous with risk and grace faith is synonymous with risk and grace faith is synonymous with risk and grace is more powerful than defeat. is more powerful than defeat. is more powerful than defeat. >> So if you take the risk, >> So if you take the risk, >> So if you take the risk, you're exercising faith. I mean, what you're exercising faith. I mean, what you're exercising faith. I mean, what did Noah have to go on in building an did Noah have to go on in building an did Noah have to go on in building an ark? Um, it just it's a risk. But I want ark? Um, it just it's a risk. But I want ark? Um, it just it's a risk. But I want to hit the other side of that. Say, for to hit the other side of that. Say, for to hit the other side of that. Say, for instance, you do mess up. And I think we instance, you do mess up. And I think we instance, you do mess up. And I think we have a hyper cancel culture. I think have a hyper cancel culture. I think have a hyper cancel culture. I think that the this is not why you invited me that the this is not why you invited me that the this is not why you invited me on. I I just think some of that stuff is on. I I just think some of that stuff is on. I I just think some of that stuff is dangerous and it pushes people in the dangerous and it pushes people in the dangerous and it pushes people in the closets and you know it just you should closets and you know it just you should closets and you know it just you should not lose it all if you mess up. However, not lose it all if you mess up. However, not lose it all if you mess up. However, >> is not the grace of God >> is not the grace of God >> is not the grace of God stronger than our sin? And I I do not stronger than our sin? And I I do not stronger than our sin? And I I do not mean just like the stuff we call out, mean just like the stuff we call out, mean just like the stuff we call out, but I mean but I mean but I mean even though Graham got some things even though Graham got some things even though Graham got some things wrong, is not the grace of God stronger wrong, is not the grace of God stronger wrong, is not the grace of God stronger than that? Yeah.

than that? Yeah. than that? Yeah. >> So, what really do we have to fear, >> So, what really do we have to fear, >> So, what really do we have to fear, Carrie? If at the end, grace is going to Carrie? If at the end, grace is going to Carrie? If at the end, grace is going to meet us, take the risk right now and let meet us, take the risk right now and let meet us, take the risk right now and let grace make up for all your failures. I grace make up for all your failures. I grace make up for all your failures. I just am the personality type. I would just am the personality type. I would just am the personality type. I would rather error rather error rather error on the side of courage on the side of courage on the side of courage than to sit on the side of compromise than to sit on the side of compromise than to sit on the side of compromise for the sake of peace. That's well said. What are the some of That's well said. What are the some of the positions you've taken or the issues the positions you've taken or the issues the positions you've taken or the issues you've spoken on? you've spoken on? you've spoken on? What were they and what did they cost What were they and what did they cost What were they and what did they cost you? you? you? >> Well, I mean, right now we have a crisis >> Well, I mean, right now we have a crisis >> Well, I mean, right now we have a crisis of young black boys who cannot read at of young black boys who cannot read at of young black boys who cannot read at the third grade by the time they get to the third grade by the time they get to the third grade by the time they get to the third grade level. That's in Chicago the third grade level. That's in Chicago the third grade level. That's in Chicago partic. It's around the nation. But I partic. It's around the nation. But I partic. It's around the nation. But I have spent so much money and pushing in have spent so much money and pushing in have spent so much money and pushing in our church and trying to get black boys our church and trying to get black boys our church and trying to get black boys to learn to read. So we run these summer to learn to read. So we run these summer to learn to read. So we run these summer camps. It's called the black boy camps. It's called the black boy camps. It's called the black boy literacy campaign for eight year olds to literacy campaign for eight year olds to literacy campaign for eight year olds to 10 year olds.

10 year olds. 10 year olds. And it's it's cost me a few different And it's it's cost me a few different And it's it's cost me a few different ways. But I'm fundament like in our ways. But I'm fundament like in our ways. But I'm fundament like in our young adult ministry when I look at all young adult ministry when I look at all young adult ministry when I look at all of these upwardly mobile inquisitive of these upwardly mobile inquisitive of these upwardly mobile inquisitive black women who have nobody to marry. black women who have nobody to marry. black women who have nobody to marry. I'm looking at the next crop saying I'm looking at the next crop saying I'm looking at the next crop saying this. This is regardless of where a kid this. This is regardless of where a kid this. This is regardless of where a kid is born, what neighborhood they come is born, what neighborhood they come is born, what neighborhood they come through, through, through, they should have access in America to a they should have access in America to a they should have access in America to a quality education where they learn how quality education where they learn how quality education where they learn how to read so that they can read to learn to read so that they can read to learn to read so that they can read to learn and become the kind of gentlemen who and become the kind of gentlemen who and become the kind of gentlemen who raise families and are meaningful raise families and are meaningful raise families and are meaningful contributors to society. That that contributors to society. That that contributors to society. That that that's an issue. Um, I can tell you any that's an issue. Um, I can tell you any that's an issue. Um, I can tell you any anything that comes up around sexuality anything that comes up around sexuality anything that comes up around sexuality >> is an issue that's going to cause >> is an issue that's going to cause >> is an issue that's going to cause >> Well, well, before we get to sexuality, >> Well, well, before we get to sexuality, >> Well, well, before we get to sexuality, what is the push back on that? what is the push back on that? what is the push back on that? >> What's the push back on on educating >> What's the push back on on educating >> What's the push back on on educating young black boys? young black boys? young black boys? >> Yeah, it is. What about the girls? It's >> Yeah, it is. What about the girls? It's >> Yeah, it is. What about the girls? It's um shouldn't we be focused on teachers? um shouldn't we be focused on teachers? um shouldn't we be focused on teachers? Shouldn't we be focused on policy Shouldn't we be focused on policy Shouldn't we be focused on policy reform? Um, it's all of these other reform? Um, it's all of these other reform? Um, it's all of these other competing things that that in and of competing things that that in and of competing things that that in and of itself doesn't deserve the kind of itself doesn't deserve the kind of itself doesn't deserve the kind of primacy that I've given to it.

primacy that I've given to it. primacy that I've given to it. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What about sexuality? Let's go. >> What about sexuality? Let's go. >> What about sexuality? Let's go. >> Yeah. You can't go You can't get right. >> Yeah. You can't go You can't get right. >> Yeah. You can't go You can't get right. Can't get right. No matter what. Can't get right. No matter what. Can't get right. No matter what. >> That's Everyone says amen. Correct. You >> That's Everyone says amen. Correct. You >> That's Everyone says amen. Correct. You just can't get it right. just can't get it right. just can't get it right. >> Can't get it right. Um, I I think for >> Can't get it right. Um, I I think for >> Can't get it right. Um, I I think for sure. So, I recently got uninvited. Uh, sure. So, I recently got uninvited. Uh, sure. So, I recently got uninvited. Uh, I probably get uninvited more than I I probably get uninvited more than I I probably get uninvited more than I know, but I would I have been invited. know, but I would I have been invited. know, but I would I have been invited. It's Christian school. It's a local It's Christian school. It's a local It's Christian school. It's a local school. I'm not gonna name no names. And school. I'm not gonna name no names. And school. I'm not gonna name no names. And you know, an acceptance of an invitation you know, an acceptance of an invitation you know, an acceptance of an invitation from my office in this season is a big from my office in this season is a big from my office in this season is a big deal because I we have such limited deal because I we have such limited deal because I we have such limited bandwidth. And so when we agree to go bandwidth. And so when we agree to go bandwidth. And so when we agree to go somewhere, it's kind of like, all right, somewhere, it's kind of like, all right, somewhere, it's kind of like, all right, we're going. It's a big deal. Well, to we're going. It's a big deal. Well, to we're going. It's a big deal. Well, to be uninvited, it's kind of like I gave be uninvited, it's kind of like I gave be uninvited, it's kind of like I gave you that date. So, it kind of picked my you that date. So, it kind of picked my you that date. So, it kind of picked my team in a different team in a different team in a different >> man. They uninvited me because >> man. They uninvited me because >> man. They uninvited me because they think I'm a Democrat and they think I'm a Democrat and they think I'm a Democrat and I guess I didn't have flattering things I guess I didn't have flattering things I guess I didn't have flattering things to say, which by the way, if you follow to say, which by the way, if you follow to say, which by the way, if you follow like if my voting record ever went like if my voting record ever went like if my voting record ever went public, I mean, I could be all over the public, I mean, I could be all over the public, I mean, I could be all over the place, but nobody would ever know that.

place, but nobody would ever know that. place, but nobody would ever know that. So anyway, it's it's the kind of thing So anyway, it's it's the kind of thing So anyway, it's it's the kind of thing though where though where though where I was punished for quote punished for I was punished for quote punished for I was punished for quote punished for speaking out about something this speaking out about something this speaking out about something this president did that was not right and president did that was not right and president did that was not right and noble noble noble >> and >> and >> and I and and you can take your pick in my I and and you can take your pick in my I and and you can take your pick in my opinion um but I have been written off opinion um but I have been written off opinion um but I have been written off by certain groups as woke which I don't by certain groups as woke which I don't by certain groups as woke which I don't think is a bad word but anyway as as think is a bad word but anyway as as think is a bad word but anyway as as woke. They love to call me a Marxist. woke. They love to call me a Marxist. woke. They love to call me a Marxist. Whenever I speak up about matters of Whenever I speak up about matters of Whenever I speak up about matters of justice, justice, justice, those are the labels and the terms that those are the labels and the terms that those are the labels and the terms that come right away and people close their come right away and people close their come right away and people close their doors. Some of them do to you. doors. Some of them do to you. doors. Some of them do to you. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so I have >> And so I have >> And so I have I mean 2018 I think it was when I I mean 2018 I think it was when I I mean 2018 I think it was when I addressed uh the ERLC and the Southern addressed uh the ERLC and the Southern addressed uh the ERLC and the Southern Baptist Convention at that MLK event. Baptist Convention at that MLK event. Baptist Convention at that MLK event. Great moment. I thought it was we had a Great moment. I thought it was we had a Great moment. I thought it was we had a lot of hope. You'd have to talk to lot of hope. You'd have to talk to lot of hope. You'd have to talk to Russell Moore about that um thereafter.

Russell Moore about that um thereafter. Russell Moore about that um thereafter. But But But it's like once people found out I was it's like once people found out I was it's like once people found out I was serious about those matters, then it serious about those matters, then it serious about those matters, then it didn't matter if I could preach. It didn't matter if I could preach. It didn't matter if I could preach. It didn't matter if I was telling the didn't matter if I was telling the didn't matter if I was telling the truth. It was, "Oh, he's one of those truth. It was, "Oh, he's one of those truth. It was, "Oh, he's one of those justice guys, you know." And I've heard justice guys, you know." And I've heard justice guys, you know." And I've heard that from young white pastors. I want to that from young white pastors. I want to that from young white pastors. I want to go on record that I know and love. Yep. go on record that I know and love. Yep. go on record that I know and love. Yep. and and like peers of mine who will say and and like peers of mine who will say and and like peers of mine who will say to me, you know, um my friends say these to me, you know, um my friends say these to me, you know, um my friends say these things things things and I I don't even know their friends, and I I don't even know their friends, and I I don't even know their friends, but I just I just wonder like, you know, but I just I just wonder like, you know, but I just I just wonder like, you know, what did I do to deserve that what did I do to deserve that what did I do to deserve that reputation? Those are those are matters reputation? Those are those are matters reputation? Those are those are matters that that that >> So, how do you come to terms with that? >> So, how do you come to terms with that? >> So, how do you come to terms with that? How does that not change who or what you How does that not change who or what you How does that not change who or what you are? Um, I have a loving wife are? Um, I have a loving wife are? Um, I have a loving wife >> who in a real sense is the apple of my >> who in a real sense is the apple of my >> who in a real sense is the apple of my eye, the sugar in my Kool-Aid. Um, who eye, the sugar in my Kool-Aid. Um, who eye, the sugar in my Kool-Aid. Um, who we this year will celebrate 20 years. we this year will celebrate 20 years. we this year will celebrate 20 years. And there's a benefit of longevity. And there's a benefit of longevity. And there's a benefit of longevity. Thank you. In a few weeks, there's a Thank you. In a few weeks, there's a Thank you. In a few weeks, there's a benefit of longevity where somebody can benefit of longevity where somebody can benefit of longevity where somebody can remind you of who you are. So, when the remind you of who you are. So, when the remind you of who you are. So, when the world is just now meeting you, when world is just now meeting you, when world is just now meeting you, when people are just now running into you, people are just now running into you, people are just now running into you, somebody could say to you, "No, I've somebody could say to you, "No, I've somebody could say to you, "No, I've known you for a long time. This this is known you for a long time. This this is known you for a long time. This this is who you are." And man, I could cry just who you are." And man, I could cry just who you are." And man, I could cry just tell the the comfort and the solace I tell the the comfort and the solace I tell the the comfort and the solace I have in going home. Super. But the but have in going home. Super. But the but have in going home. Super. But the but the second home are the churches that I the second home are the churches that I the second home are the churches that I serve. I'm so glad I don't work for serve. I'm so glad I don't work for serve. I'm so glad I don't work for white evangelicals. I don't know what to white evangelicals. I don't know what to white evangelicals. I don't know what to do because they will dangle that carrot

do because they will dangle that carrot do because they will dangle that carrot of an income over your head. I've seen of an income over your head. I've seen of an income over your head. I've seen them and snatch funding and hurt you in them and snatch funding and hurt you in them and snatch funding and hurt you in this finance. Man, the people I pastor, this finance. Man, the people I pastor, this finance. Man, the people I pastor, they like, "Right on, pastor. they like, "Right on, pastor. they like, "Right on, pastor. We'll be right here with you. And that's We'll be right here with you. And that's We'll be right here with you. And that's a that is a I can't explain to you how a that is a I can't explain to you how a that is a I can't explain to you how helpful contextually that is for me helpful contextually that is for me helpful contextually that is for me because when I talk about the people I'm because when I talk about the people I'm because when I talk about the people I'm pastoring, I'm talking about a pastoring, I'm talking about a pastoring, I'm talking about a fivegeneration church. fivegeneration church. fivegeneration church. I'm talking about people who marched I'm talking about people who marched I'm talking about people who marched with Dr. King. I'm I'm talking about with Dr. King. I'm I'm talking about with Dr. King. I'm I'm talking about folk who've been lifetime members of the folk who've been lifetime members of the folk who've been lifetime members of the NAACP who've who've been devoted and NAACP who've who've been devoted and NAACP who've who've been devoted and committed to the personal work of Jesus committed to the personal work of Jesus committed to the personal work of Jesus Christ. I had a crisis at one point uh Christ. I had a crisis at one point uh Christ. I had a crisis at one point uh over some election and one of my old over some election and one of my old over some election and one of my old deacons, he's 92 now. Oh, pastor, I live deacons, he's 92 now. Oh, pastor, I live deacons, he's 92 now. Oh, pastor, I live through Roosevelt and Reagan and Nixon through Roosevelt and Reagan and Nixon through Roosevelt and Reagan and Nixon and Clinton and Johnson and Kennedy. He and Clinton and Johnson and Kennedy. He and Clinton and Johnson and Kennedy. He said, "You going to be all right." said, "You going to be all right." said, "You going to be all right." So, I come home to these people who've So, I come home to these people who've So, I come home to these people who've lived the struggle and they've walked lived the struggle and they've walked lived the struggle and they've walked with Christ with Christ with Christ >> and they say to me, "You're not crazy."

>> and they say to me, "You're not crazy." >> and they say to me, "You're not crazy." >> Yeah. You know what? What you're talking >> Yeah. You know what? What you're talking >> Yeah. You know what? What you're talking about is is legit. It has been our about is is legit. It has been our about is is legit. It has been our struggle, our story, and our song. And struggle, our story, and our song. And struggle, our story, and our song. And they've corrected me when I've been they've corrected me when I've been they've corrected me when I've been wrong. wrong. wrong. >> How does one end up pastoring two >> How does one end up pastoring two >> How does one end up pastoring two congregations? This is not a multi-sight congregations? This is not a multi-sight congregations? This is not a multi-sight church. These are two distinct churches. church. These are two distinct churches. church. These are two distinct churches. >> You got to be crazy or called. >> You got to be crazy or called. >> You got to be crazy or called. >> Okay, there you go. >> Okay, there you go. >> Okay, there you go. >> I do not recommend like So, first of >> I do not recommend like So, first of >> I do not recommend like So, first of all, I think we have to start thinking all, I think we have to start thinking all, I think we have to start thinking more kingdom less castle. Um, I get that more kingdom less castle. Um, I get that more kingdom less castle. Um, I get that from Dave Ferguson. from Dave Ferguson. from Dave Ferguson. >> Um, I I think that's a brilliant way to >> Um, I I think that's a brilliant way to >> Um, I I think that's a brilliant way to put it. put it. put it. >> So many of our churches, and I I'm I'm >> So many of our churches, and I I'm I'm >> So many of our churches, and I I'm I'm at a Baptist church, which believes in at a Baptist church, which believes in at a Baptist church, which believes in autonomy and all that kind, but we are autonomy and all that kind, but we are autonomy and all that kind, but we are thief dumps. We don't work together um thief dumps. We don't work together um thief dumps. We don't work together um in kingdom ways. And so I in 2018, I'm in kingdom ways. And so I in 2018, I'm in kingdom ways. And so I in 2018, I'm going share this with you. I don't think going share this with you. I don't think going share this with you. I don't think I've said this on a podcast. I've said this on a podcast. I've said this on a podcast. I kept waking up telling Kirsty, I feel I kept waking up telling Kirsty, I feel I kept waking up telling Kirsty, I feel like God is calling us to more. And I like God is calling us to more. And I like God is calling us to more. And I don't know what to do with it because we don't know what to do with it because we don't know what to do with it because we were very comfortable, very happy with were very comfortable, very happy with were very comfortable, very happy with where we are. Man, Carrie, doors started where we are. Man, Carrie, doors started where we are. Man, Carrie, doors started opening all around the country. And I'm opening all around the country. And I'm opening all around the country. And I'm not going to name no names, but just not going to name no names, but just not going to name no names, but just some great places came and everyone that some great places came and everyone that some great places came and everyone that came up, she was either like no or I was came up, she was either like no or I was came up, she was either like no or I was like, nah, that's not it. And the one like, nah, that's not it. And the one like, nah, that's not it. And the one that I really wanted to go after, she that I really wanted to go after, she that I really wanted to go after, she was dead set against it. And so we found was dead set against it. And so we found was dead set against it. And so we found ourselves just back home ourselves just back home ourselves just back home and my the pastor I trained under in

and my the pastor I trained under in and my the pastor I trained under in seminary, Pastor Copeland, my I call him seminary, Pastor Copeland, my I call him seminary, Pastor Copeland, my I call him my pastor, my bishop in that way. He my pastor, my bishop in that way. He my pastor, my bishop in that way. He said to me, he said, "Man, um I think said to me, he said, "Man, um I think said to me, he said, "Man, um I think God is calling you to Chicago." He he God is calling you to Chicago." He he God is calling you to Chicago." He he says, "And I think God is calling you to says, "And I think God is calling you to says, "And I think God is calling you to pastor that city." This is what he said. pastor that city." This is what he said. pastor that city." This is what he said. And and so then I so Pastor Meeks comes And and so then I so Pastor Meeks comes And and so then I so Pastor Meeks comes along and he says, "Well, hey man, what along and he says, "Well, hey man, what along and he says, "Well, hey man, what are you thinking about um in terms of are you thinking about um in terms of are you thinking about um in terms of next steps, so forth and so on." And he next steps, so forth and so on." And he next steps, so forth and so on." And he and he laid out the plan. So Kirsty and and he laid out the plan. So Kirsty and and he laid out the plan. So Kirsty and I prayed and we felt like God was I prayed and we felt like God was I prayed and we felt like God was calling us to Salem, but he wasn't calling us to Salem, but he wasn't calling us to Salem, but he wasn't telling us to leave Progressive at that telling us to leave Progressive at that telling us to leave Progressive at that time. And to Pastor Mix's credit, time. And to Pastor Mix's credit, time. And to Pastor Mix's credit, he basically said the same thing. He he basically said the same thing. He he basically said the same thing. He said, "I've never seen this before. I've said, "I've never seen this before. I've said, "I've never seen this before. I've never heard of it." He said, "But I never heard of it." He said, "But I never heard of it." He said, "But I trust God's call on your life." and God trust God's call on your life." and God trust God's call on your life." and God is raising you up to do something is raising you up to do something is raising you up to do something significant for this city. So these significant for this city. So these significant for this city. So these churches have had to agree churches have had to agree churches have had to agree to let me do this. And these are not to let me do this. And these are not to let me do this. And these are not small churches. I I say that not small churches. I I say that not small churches. I I say that not bragging. I just say the weight of it bragging. I just say the weight of it bragging. I just say the weight of it all. I feel it. These are this is major all. I feel it. These are this is major all. I feel it. These are this is major responsibility that requires significant responsibility that requires significant responsibility that requires significant help. And I'm just thankful that I help. And I'm just thankful that I help. And I'm just thankful that I haven't gone under.

haven't gone under. haven't gone under. >> So two boards, two staff, two board. >> So two boards, two staff, two board. >> So two boards, two staff, two board. Yeah. two. Yeah. two. Yeah. two. >> How do you handle Sundays? How does that >> How do you handle Sundays? How does that >> How do you handle Sundays? How does that work? work? work? >> So, I have two services at Progressive, >> So, I have two services at Progressive, >> So, I have two services at Progressive, one 7:30, one 9:30, and then I have an one 7:30, one 9:30, and then I have an one 7:30, one 9:30, and then I have an 11:00 a.m. service at Salem. The church 11:00 a.m. service at Salem. The church 11:00 a.m. service at Salem. The church is about 10 miles apart. is about 10 miles apart. is about 10 miles apart. >> So, there's a whole system that just >> So, there's a whole system that just >> So, there's a whole system that just moves me from one place to the next. I moves me from one place to the next. I moves me from one place to the next. I literally, it's my job to be prepared, literally, it's my job to be prepared, literally, it's my job to be prepared, stand up and do what I'm supposed to do, stand up and do what I'm supposed to do, stand up and do what I'm supposed to do, then they whisk me off to the next thing then they whisk me off to the next thing then they whisk me off to the next thing and to the next thing. So, Sunday is the and to the next thing. So, Sunday is the and to the next thing. So, Sunday is the easiest day of the week. easiest day of the week. easiest day of the week. >> H everything else is complicated. >> H everything else is complicated. >> H everything else is complicated. >> Oh, man. Listen, so we do not have like >> Oh, man. Listen, so we do not have like >> Oh, man. Listen, so we do not have like So both of my exec teams meet together So both of my exec teams meet together So both of my exec teams meet together four times a year. At least they're four times a year. At least they're four times a year. At least they're supposed to, but I go to John Jenkins, supposed to, but I go to John Jenkins, supposed to, but I go to John Jenkins, Pastor John Jenkins and First Baptist Pastor John Jenkins and First Baptist Pastor John Jenkins and First Baptist Glenn Arta uh says to me, Charlie, you Glenn Arta uh says to me, Charlie, you Glenn Arta uh says to me, Charlie, you need to get down to basically one need to get down to basically one need to get down to basically one meeting a month with with the staff. So meeting a month with with the staff. So meeting a month with with the staff. So that's where I'm working. So other that's where I'm working. So other that's where I'm working. So other people are doing the work. And it's people are doing the work. And it's people are doing the work. And it's beautiful because strangely enough, beautiful because strangely enough, beautiful because strangely enough, Carrie, Progressive took off when I Carrie, Progressive took off when I Carrie, Progressive took off when I started to pastor both churches. And I started to pastor both churches. And I started to pastor both churches. And I think part of that is because I got out think part of that is because I got out think part of that is because I got out the way. I think other people stepped the way. I think other people stepped the way. I think other people stepped up.

up. up. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In the roles and in the stuff >> In the roles and in the stuff >> In the roles and in the stuff >> and they started doing what God has >> and they started doing what God has >> and they started doing what God has gifted them to do. And and now I'm so gifted them to do. And and now I'm so gifted them to do. And and now I'm so happy I'm out the way. I don't know what happy I'm out the way. I don't know what happy I'm out the way. I don't know what to do. I can't go back to the way things to do. I can't go back to the way things to do. I can't go back to the way things used to be. used to be. used to be. >> We have talked about so much today, >> We have talked about so much today, >> We have talked about so much today, Charlie. I want to go back to the whole Charlie. I want to go back to the whole Charlie. I want to go back to the whole fear incentives. fear incentives. fear incentives. >> Yeah. because I think I think you >> Yeah. because I think I think you >> Yeah. because I think I think you touched a lot of pastors. I think most touched a lot of pastors. I think most touched a lot of pastors. I think most people feel like they should be saying some feel like they should be saying some things that honestly they just don't things that honestly they just don't things that honestly they just don't have the courage to say in today's have the courage to say in today's have the courage to say in today's hyperartisanized hyperartisanized hyperartisanized um parti partisanized Yeah. partisan um parti partisanized Yeah. partisan um parti partisanized Yeah. partisan environment. environment. environment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um divided cancel you on a dime. >> Um divided cancel you on a dime. >> Um divided cancel you on a dime. You know your words live forever. boy. You know your words live forever. boy. You know your words live forever. boy. And and as you say with sexuality, you And and as you say with sexuality, you And and as you say with sexuality, you just can't win. You just can't win. It just can't win. You just can't win. It just can't win. You just can't win. It doesn't matter what you do. It's doesn't matter what you do. It's doesn't matter what you do. It's automatic loss. automatic loss. automatic loss. >> But they're really wrestling with their >> But they're really wrestling with their >> But they're really wrestling with their conscience. They don't want to be like conscience. They don't want to be like conscience. They don't want to be like Billy Graham and others have said on the Billy Graham and others have said on the Billy Graham and others have said on the record, "Gosh, I wish I'd done more."

record, "Gosh, I wish I'd done more." record, "Gosh, I wish I'd done more." >> What's your word to them? >> What's your word to them? >> What's your word to them? >> I would say, first of all, this is going >> I would say, first of all, this is going >> I would say, first of all, this is going to sound really basic, but I want you to to sound really basic, but I want you to to sound really basic, but I want you to feel me on this. Start reading history. feel me on this. Start reading history. feel me on this. Start reading history. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful. >> Yes. so thankful because history has a >> Yes. so thankful because history has a >> Yes. so thankful because history has a way of way of way of illustrating theology. It it has a way illustrating theology. It it has a way illustrating theology. It it has a way of helping to frame even the current of helping to frame even the current of helping to frame even the current narrative. narrative. narrative. If we do not, we're going to parrot what If we do not, we're going to parrot what If we do not, we're going to parrot what our favorite our favorite our favorite podcasters, pundits, and politicians podcasters, pundits, and politicians podcasters, pundits, and politicians have to say. And so rather than just have to say. And so rather than just have to say. And so rather than just like rather than having those as like rather than having those as like rather than having those as intellectual intellectual intellectual velcro spots to hang out, grab some velcro spots to hang out, grab some velcro spots to hang out, grab some history and actually learn it in the history and actually learn it in the history and actually learn it in the honest way that it was and let the honest way that it was and let the honest way that it was and let the spirit of God move you to I'm talking spirit of God move you to I'm talking spirit of God move you to I'm talking about the American story right now to about the American story right now to about the American story right now to see how we got to where we are and I see how we got to where we are and I see how we got to where we are and I think it will become clearer to you as think it will become clearer to you as think it will become clearer to you as to how to address some of these things. to how to address some of these things. to how to address some of these things. The fear part is a greater and yet The fear part is a greater and yet The fear part is a greater and yet simpler issue. I don't think the fear is simpler issue. I don't think the fear is simpler issue. I don't think the fear is going to go away. I want to be very going to go away. I want to be very going to go away. I want to be very clear what I'm saying. But I don't think clear what I'm saying. But I don't think clear what I'm saying. But I don't think God has given us a spirit of fear. I I God has given us a spirit of fear. I I God has given us a spirit of fear. I I think he's given us power, love, and a think he's given us power, love, and a think he's given us power, love, and a sound mind. Which means sound mind. Which means sound mind. Which means that when you are afraid, take your fear that when you are afraid, take your fear that when you are afraid, take your fear with you. Even if you got to clench your with you. Even if you got to clench your with you. Even if you got to clench your fingers and curl your toes while you're fingers and curl your toes while you're fingers and curl your toes while you're talking, and I've had to do that.

talking, and I've had to do that. talking, and I've had to do that. play what needs to be said play what needs to be said play what needs to be said and then let trust God to work it all and then let trust God to work it all and then let trust God to work it all out. out. out. >> Call me though if you got I will give >> Call me though if you got I will give >> Call me though if you got I will give you my number. I'm not gonna do that on you my number. I'm not gonna do that on you my number. I'm not gonna do that on Car's podcast, but if I can be not a Car's podcast, but if I can be not a Car's podcast, but if I can be not a good idea. good idea. good idea. >> Reach out to me. Let me know. PC >> Reach out to me. Let me know. PC >> Reach out to me. Let me know. PC progressive Chicago.org. progressive Chicago.org. progressive Chicago.org. >> Well, Charlie, I I can't thank you >> Well, Charlie, I I can't thank you >> Well, Charlie, I I can't thank you enough. This has been a real joy. I've enough. This has been a real joy. I've enough. This has been a real joy. I've looked forward to this for a long time. looked forward to this for a long time. looked forward to this for a long time. Latest book is What Hath Justice to do Latest book is What Hath Justice to do Latest book is What Hath Justice to do with righteousness? It's available with righteousness? It's available with righteousness? It's available everywhere. Uh Charlie, if people want everywhere. Uh Charlie, if people want everywhere. Uh Charlie, if people want to find you, you just gave an email to find you, you just gave an email to find you, you just gave an email address. Are you active on a social address. Are you active on a social address. Are you active on a social platform? Do you have a website? platform? Do you have a website? platform? Do you have a website? >> I, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of >> I, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of >> I, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of Tik Tok. Um but I'm on Instagram at Tik Tok. Um but I'm on Instagram at Tik Tok. Um but I'm on Instagram at Charlie Dates. And then there's uh Charlie Dates. And then there's uh Charlie Dates. And then there's uh preachingdates.com. preachingdates.com. preachingdates.com. Charlieates.com. One of those. They they Charlieates.com. One of those. They they Charlieates.com. One of those. They they work. work. work. >> They will promote you with us, too. >> They will promote you with us, too. >> They will promote you with us, too. >> Charlie, thank you. >> Charlie, thank you. >> Charlie, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, after we finished recording, >> Well, after we finished recording, >> Well, after we finished recording, Charlie and I took some time to pray for Charlie and I took some time to pray for Charlie and I took some time to pray for who? For you, and for the church. um who? For you, and for the church. um who? For you, and for the church. um what we talked about stakes are high and what we talked about stakes are high and what we talked about stakes are high and you don't want to look back on history you don't want to look back on history you don't want to look back on history and regret that you didn't have the and regret that you didn't have the and regret that you didn't have the courage to say something. So if that's courage to say something. So if that's courage to say something. So if that's you um well hope you find the courage to you um well hope you find the courage to you um well hope you find the courage to do that. And if you want more there were do that. And if you want more there were do that. And if you want more there were so many people that we referenced in so many people that we referenced in so many people that we referenced in this podcast you can get it in the show this podcast you can get it in the show this podcast you can get it in the show notes. You can go to notes. You can go to notes. You can go to kerryneuhoff.com/showotes kerryneuhoff.com/showotes kerryneuhoff.com/showotes or easier just go to the art of or easier just go to the art of or easier just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com join over 22,000 leadershipacademy.com join over 22,000 leadershipacademy.com join over 22,000 other leaders there church leaders. We other leaders there church leaders. We other leaders there church leaders. We post the episodes there and we have some post the episodes there and we have some post the episodes there and we have some really robust discussions. Also coming really robust discussions. Also coming really robust discussions. Also coming up, we have Annie F. DS, JP, Mark Sers,

up, we have Annie F. DS, JP, Mark Sers, up, we have Annie F. DS, JP, Mark Sers, Pat Gellzinger, and a whole lot more on Pat Gellzinger, and a whole lot more on Pat Gellzinger, and a whole lot more on the podcast. If this conversation was the podcast. If this conversation was the podcast. If this conversation was helpful, we love it when you leave helpful, we love it when you leave helpful, we love it when you leave comments or ratings or reviews wherever comments or ratings or reviews wherever comments or ratings or reviews wherever you're listening or watching. Share it you're listening or watching. Share it you're listening or watching. Share it with a friend and hit follow and with a friend and hit follow and with a friend and hit follow and subscribe. And uh when you do that, you subscribe. And uh when you do that, you subscribe. And uh when you do that, you know what? The show grows and we get you know what? The show grows and we get you know what? The show grows and we get you the most incredible conversations we're the most incredible conversations we're the most incredible conversations we're capable of. It's really humbling that capable of. It's really humbling that capable of. It's really humbling that you continue to listen. Thank you so you continue to listen. Thank you so you continue to listen. Thank you so much. And um you know, I know this was a much. And um you know, I know this was a much. And um you know, I know this was a a tough topic and if it pushed some a tough topic and if it pushed some a tough topic and if it pushed some buttons in you, rather than kind of buttons in you, rather than kind of buttons in you, rather than kind of lashing out, I'd encourage you to pray lashing out, I'd encourage you to pray lashing out, I'd encourage you to pray about it. See what God is saying to you about it. See what God is saying to you about it. See what God is saying to you in this moment because I think this is in this moment because I think this is in this moment because I think this is an opportunity for the church to really an opportunity for the church to really an opportunity for the church to really get it right. And I hope our time get it right. And I hope our time get it right. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.